1 10 82 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Louis Adamsel OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Adamsel, Louis. Interview May 28th, 2021 SC027-08 1:57:56 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm San Marcos (Calif.) ; Watts (Los Angeles, Calif.) ; Moreno Valley (Calif.) ; California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center ; California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated ; California State University San Marcos -- Students ; California State University San Marcos -- Staff ; Black experience in America ; Civil rights ; Student Success Louis Adamsel Jennifer Ho mp4 AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.mp4 1:|15(16)|34(9)|51(3)|61(10)|76(11)|87(9)|100(3)|109(9)|119(11)|132(13)|146(3)|157(4)|167(18)|178(8)|188(5)|198(5)|215(18)|226(9)|237(4)|246(12)|266(10)|276(8)|287(15)|300(11)|310(13)|321(5)|333(13)|345(13)|353(12)|361(12)|374(9)|394(4)|404(17)|417(13)|428(17)|442(3)|452(12)|465(4)|476(3)|492(4)|502(17)|515(4)|528(6)|538(8)|549(9)|560(14)|569(4)|582(4)|592(14)|602(17)|612(13)|626(13)|639(6)|649(6)|662(4)|673(7)|683(12)|698(14)|709(4)|720(13)|731(12)|747(4)|765(13)|777(3)|787(12)|800(10)|811(12)|822(9)|833(6)|842(5)|851(9)|860(17)|872(8)|883(4)|897(3)|905(11)|915(10)|930(11)|948(14)|959(14)|970(9)|985(5)|994(13)|1011(3)|1025(6)|1035(11)|1045(13)|1060(15)|1071(16)|1081(9)|1090(16)|1106(4)|1117(6)|1128(17)|1137(12)|1147(8)|1156(6)|1167(16)|1178(10)|1192(5)|1201(10)|1213(9)|1220(12)|1229(11)|1239(3)|1253(15)|1267(12)|1278(3)|1292(12)|1303(4)|1313(4)|1329(5)|1348(6)|1360(12)|1377(8)|1398(4)|1407(16)|1423(4) Undefined 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6467aaeae0fa754e1c7c8115191c77ae.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 46 Childhood and early education experience 0 140 Developing an understanding of Blackness 0 415 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence 0 636 Comparing lived experiences in Georgia, Los Angeles, and choosing Cal State San Marcos 0 1249 Adamsel's relationship with the Black Student Center 0 1597 Leaders on the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes 0 1899 Visions for the Black Student Center at its inception and its current mission 0 2132 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation 0 2362 Pushback to the creation of the Black Student Center 0 3084 Attending the The Black Student Center Grand Opening 0 3085 Attending the The Black Student Center Grand Opening and continuing levels of support after the BSC Opening 0 3873 The Black Student Center's impact on the campus community and on Adamsel personally 0 4493 Behind the scenes stories 0 5525 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements 0 6710 Adamsel's thoughts on the Black Student Center Oral History Project 0 oral history In this interview, Louis Adamsel speaks on his time as an undergraduate student at California State University San Marcos, aspects of his life as a student leader, his experience as a Black student and, later, as a staff member. Adamsel discusses his experience advocating for the opening of the Black Student Center and the purpose the BSC serves to students, including the necessity of having a variety of resources in order to retain underserved students. He also speaks on mentorships and partnerships, both within the Black community and across identities and spaces. Jennifer Ho: All right. Today is Friday, May 28th, 2021, at ten o seven a.m. I’m Jennifer Ho, archivist for Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, and today I’m interviewing Louis Adamsel for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Students Center and the CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Due to the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic, this interview is being conducted virtually. Louis, thanks for being here with me today. How are you doing? Louis Adamsel: I’m doing lovely. Great to be here. Thank you for the invite. Ho: Yeah. All right. So, let’s get right to it. Tell me about your childhood. Where were you born? Where did you grow up? Adamsel: So, where I was born and ultimately where I grew up are two different places. I was born and I spent early part of my childhood in Watts, California, Watts, Los Angeles, so beautiful place. Got early experiences of education there. Just family, very beautiful place. But from Los Angeles, Watts, Los Angeles, we ended up moving to the Inland Empire, Marino Valley. And that was more desert-type. It was hotter but it was a great place to learn, grow up. And that’s where a majority of my childhood friends are from, and I still have family there to this day. Ho: Okay. Your parents still live in Marino Valley? Adamsel: Yeah. My guardian. I was actually raised by my aunt, so— Ho: Okay. Adamsel: —yeah. My aunt, yes, she still stays out there. Ho: All right. All right. Thank you. And so, did you go through high school in Marino Valley then? Adamsel: Yeah. I went to Rancho Verde High. (chuckles) Home of the Mustangs. I graduated back then, about 2012. So, almost 10 years ago, but— Ho: Okay. Adamsel: —but it was a lovely time. Ho: All right. Great. Thank you. Tell me, how did you come to your understanding of Blackness? Adamsel: I think I came to my understanding of Blackness just due to my environment. Like I said, I was born in Watts, Los Angeles. And I know my aunt worked in the school systems out there. And so, from early on, being close to schools, it was always great. I don’t know. I always was around Black people: my cousins, sisters, everything. I think that was just normal to me, Blackness. But then I think the biggest piece about Blackness was just about, when I was younger, I used to love reading. And so, with that comes history, learning about who you are in relation to the world. And the earliest bits of history was, I think, elementary school. But I can remember—it was 102nd Street School and I think there was a ceremony rededicating the name to Florence Griffith Joiner Elementary School. And so, right then, there was the history of a Black track star, one of the greatest female athletes. And boom! And my interest just—that started it. But through reading, through writing, through understanding people, through understanding different cultures, if you want to do anything in the world in relation to other people, I think the biggest piece is understanding that relation to yourself and where you come from and, ultimately, how the world perceives you. And especially being from Los Angeles and even understanding whether it’s relationships to police, understanding relationships with low-income communities, whether or not you understand it all entirely when you’re young, you can see differences. You can understand people and places where you might not see a specific race in a certain area, but you might see them everywhere else. And then, you put the two and two together at a young age. And I think through education and through reading and through history, you can sort of understand a little bit better. But, yeah, I feel like I always knew. (chuckles) Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Through experience and learning. Adamsel: Yeah. Exactly. Ho: (several words unintelligible) Definitely. You mentioned that you did a lot of reading. Was reading something that you were interested in on your own, or did your aunt encourage you to read? Or was this all through school? Adamsel: I think reading was something that I did on my own a lot because I ultimately enjoyed it. I think it was peaceful and it fit, once you understand letters and the relationships, it was like figuring out a puzzle for me. I know my aunt, growing up in the household, reading was encouraged. Also having—I remember I would have older siblings and there would be scholastic book things, and every student reads at a specific level. And I had a sister who was three years older than me, and I would pick up, sometimes, her books from school. And I would take her readings just to read them because I would get bored if I was reading something or I finished series. But I was always in the library, always reading, and always searching for whether it was non-fiction, fiction. I loved it. And I still do. But I feel like, when I was younger, I think I used that as a way to—I like being by myself reading more than playing video games. And it shows in my skills today. (chuckles) Ho: Okay. That’s great. As a librarian, I can identify with that. (both laugh) Okay. So then, related question. What were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? You kind of touched on this already but anything to add to that? Adamsel: Well, yeah. So, I mean I think I was always taught about the Black experience through my household. I was raised by women who thought it was really important to teach you about the way you might be perceived, about the way you should act in public, treating people with respect. But the older I get, I don’t think that was by coincidence, by choice. It was because they were older black women who probably saw how black men were being treated in Los Angeles, specifically even anywhere you go. Even in the Inland Empire, being mindful of your surroundings is a sense of security. I think that was something that was always taught because one, you never know who’s watching ; but then there’s also if anything goes down, you might also be taken at a—how would you say? Like you’re not going to be given the benefit of the doubt. I think that’s what was the message that was trying to be given to me at a young age. And like I said, I didn’t really need anybody to tell me. I mean, I had family to tell me, uncles, aunts, anything. They would tell me the basics of be mindful of what’s going on in the streets, going to and from school, being in life. But then, also reading, whether it was historical books, whether it was non-fictional accounts from people and different areas. I feel through travels—my family used to send me off to different places, whether it was to visit family in Georgia or Detroit and allow me to soak in environments, and “Hey, go use public transportation, but understand how to blend and go about your daily life.” But in that Black experience, one, it was a lot of lived moments. It was a lot of learned experience, just through hands-on teaching. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: But through reading books, sometimes you can use other people’s experiences, other people’s lives and allow that to shape your understanding of those relationships, intercultural. Like I said, it’s all about how people perceive you. And then, based on their perception of how they might view the Black man in America or even Black kids in America, they’re going to treat you a certain way. And it’s through family teaching, I think I was able to realize, whether it was if I didn’t know the term “microaggression,” I could tell if somebody was a little bit more disrespectful to me or if somebody had respect no matter where you came from and, also, if I even wanted to bother with certain people just because of what I thought their perception of me might have been. Ho: Thank you. You mentioned visiting family in Georgia and other places. Can you briefly touch on your experience in L.A. versus Georgia and then also in San Marcos. I know they are three totally different locations in terms of demographics and culture. How was that like for you? Adamsel: Yeah. So, I’ll touch on that. I mean, when it comes to Watts versus—and then, I’ll even bring in like Marino Valley. So, Watts was a place where, even through history, one of the things that’s really prominent that I used to like the most when I was a kid was just even the brief history of the Watts Towers. These are towers in Watts but when you read—it’s sort of folklore but it’s a true story—but the books talk about a man being able to build the Watts Towers out of recycled materials, old mosaic artwork, everything and builds these—I forget how many towers are in there, but beautiful, beautiful structures made out of restructured material. And every time I used to go to school, I used to see these towers as a little kid. And I’m like “Man!” and try to find out the story about that. I used to—“Man, you could do anything with recycled materials. It looks beautiful. It’s structurally sound, and people respect it” and then also knowing that somebody came here to build that in a place that (clears throat) when you think about Watts, sometimes people have mixed reviews about it. It might not be labeled as one of the safest places for everybody. So, it’s one of those things that I used to like, being able to connect with people, and also seeing the amount of black and brown people in that city. I think that I used to appreciate that, and I think going to elementary, second grade out there, it was one of those things. My introduction to the school system started there. But that was also where I had some of my first Black teachers. And so, it was a lot of that there, even the afterschool programs. I feel like whether I knew it or not, I was soaking in those experiences. And when I went to the Inland Empire, I mean it really wasn’t like on a historical Black history tip in the Inland Empire. But that was also a growing city. And I think a lot of people migrated out there. It was a growing place. And I felt like that allowed me to be in an environment where it was sort of carefree. I could learn. I could sort of be— (clears throat) like my environment wasn’t going to shape me any way. I don’t think my environment, and the Inland Empire, it may not have been Black centric. But I still feel like there was opportunities for me to go any direction that I wanted to. When I’m in my studies, I still found pockets of Black mentorship or a teacher here or there. But I just feel like just the overall environment and that quality of life, it was just something simple for a young man to grow up in. You still see those different relationships. You still see it play out. You still would be taught by family. But it was a totally different environment than L.A., slightly less busy. And I think I like that internally. And when I think about Georgia, visiting family whether it was Georgia—I think one of the biggest things that I was able to do when I visited Georgia, one, is just see the difference in Black culture as a kid. I remember going to Georgia and then, in the summers, some of the friends and things that I would make in local parks or kicking it with family, you see them doing things different. You see Black kids playing baseball, whereas in California I’m like “We mainly play basketball” over there. Or just different accents. And I have family from the south. So, I feel like the accent really wasn’t a difference. But also, the historical areas, you could go down, visit MLK Museums or Black History museums and just soak up, I think, the southern culture a little bit more than you technically would on the west coast. I’m not saying the west coast doesn’t have a vibrant Black culture. But when you come from a place where, whether the narrative wants to be blatantly told or not, you’re going to have a museum that captured things that some people might want to forget. Or just in the street names, or just in the local—even like the weather. You soak in so much from the people who have been there, who have lived it for generations and generations. And I feel like that’s one of the things that I still love to this day, traveling to different areas who their past has been, ultimately, a lot of Black history. And they have to—there’s so many different ways for them to keep track of that history and that culture. And it lives on through whether it’s food, music, style. I like it all, and it’s all a blend. Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s great. Identity is really important, and knowing about your history and your people really grounds you and shapes you. And it’s really important, for sure. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: Definitely. Okay. So then, what about San Marcos? Why did you decide to come here, and then what about the culture of this area brought you here? Why did you choose San Marcos? Adamsel: Yeah. To be honest, one of my homeboys, one of my friends from high school, we used to be in band together. And I think he came here—Damion Brandtley—he was a scholar here. But he had just told me about it. He was like “Man, it’s way cooler, weather-wise.” It’s near the beach. It’s a beautiful place. I had never been. But the Inland Empire was hot. And I was like “Yeah. I wouldn’t mind going there.” And I think I had applied but when I had originally applied, I ended up going to the military first. And then I think I was in Virginia and then I had tried again to apply. And then I ended up getting in. But I didn’t come right away. So, I had never seen San Marcos. I had only heard the weather was decent because it was semi-close to the beach. You can get there by local transportation. But when I came to San Marcos, I think I appreciated the hills. I appreciated the calmness of San Marcos. I came in 2013. I feel like they built a building every single year since then, and it’s developing. It’s not the calm city. Well, it probably won’t be the calm city that I’d seen. But when I’d first seen it, it was just so calm and so peaceful. And I think I enjoyed that peace. I won’t say it was like I was looking at San Marcos and I’m like “Oh my god, the demographics of the Black population are just so amazing.” (Jennifer chuckles) You know, I’m gonna feel enveloped. But I’m not the kind of person that says, “I need my group to be the most dominant in the area to thrive.” I didn’t look at San Marcos like that. I looked at San Marcos as a place where it was a young area. And I was like “Well, if this place is growing, I can grow with it” because I can’t grow in a place where it’s like too much going on around me. I won’t probably be able to focus. I was nervous about that. And, yeah, so San Marcos, a beautiful place. I feel like the demographics were all over the place. But I still felt like it was a majority White. I know it became a Hispanic institution. So, we get some trickles of culture there. Our Native American Land Act, that’s great. But one of the things I always noticed around my time in school is just the rate, the percentages of Black Americans at Cal State San Marcos, typically like 2.5, 3%. And that stayed the same. And I never really understood that dynamic in the relationship to Black students, understanding do they know it’s here? Is it a cool place to be? But it just didn’t seem—I feel like we got—there was Blackness here, but I felt like the community, anybody that was here, typically had to band together because we were here together. But yeah, it feels like San Marcos wasn’t that place where I was just “I’m going because the Black population.” I think I went because it was a young university, and I think the university was still making a name for itself. And so, I came in at a time where I was like “Hey. I want to do that too.” So, we had similar visions. (chuckles) Ho: Okay. That’s nice. I like how you said that you and the university would grow together. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: That’s really great. Remind me what years were you at Cal State San Marcos? Adamsel: I was there from 2013, Fall 2013, to Spring 2018. Ho: Okay. Now tell me what’s your relationship to the Black Student Center? Why did you get involved? Adamsel: Yeah. My relationship is I think I got involved because of friends. Being a young Black man on Cal State San Marcos’s campus, even staying in the dorms my Freshmen year, one of the natures of my relationship to campus used to be “Let me go to class, and then let me go back to the dorms, maybe work on homework, maybe not.” But I felt like I had a lot of friends in the dorms. And that was my relationship to campus. But then, ultimately, I started knowing more and more people who were upper classmen. And I think it might have been like Kyla or Tiffaney Boyd, but different people had come into my friend group and they’d be like “Oh, you know, on Tuesdays we’re going to this Black Student Union meeting.” And I think ultimately my relationship with fellow Black students on campus started thriving. So, when it came to, I believe it was like my, it might have been my second or third year in Cal State San Marcos. And that was one of the things. I used to actually just be like a fly on the wall when it came to the matters of BSC arriving, thinking about Jamaéla (Johnson), Tiffaney. Yeah. We’d have conversations about “Oh, you know, we’re thinking about Black Student Center, and thinking about what that could mean for university Black students.” And I remember tagging along to like the BSU meetings to promote this idea of “Hey, you know, this is coming! Are we having support from all of us? Is this something that—if there’s ever going to be sign holding or different things like that.” Because I know Tiffaney and Jamaéla were very involved with student government. They were the leaders at that time. I believe Tiffaney was president at that time. And that was one of those things where you were just making sure that this is not only an idea coming from two heads but getting that buy-in from an entire community, understanding like “Hey, you know, we have community but if we could have this space, the community probably wouldn’t have to work as hard trying to organize together or even have that spot on campus to where it’s undeniably yours.” Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And so, yeah. I feel like personally I don’t necessarily know. I guess in hindsight you never really know how minor some of your actions might be. Reviewing documents differently, like it may seem so minor. And for me it does, in relationship to the work that Jamaéla and Tiffaney and a lot of other people have put in, even people not inside the Black community, allies from the Latin /X Center, different other groups and different people around campus. I feel like my work was miniscule but ultimately that Center thrived and came to be. And then, I feel like my relationship with the Center also blossomed because, as Tiffaney and Jamaéla and some of those other strong pushers of this space, they were there but then they left. And then I’m a student, ended up being involved in student government and then, ultimately, became student government president and then I get to see even more. Being a Black student government president, my relationship with Black students is probably going to be a little different in the sense that this should be a working relationship, for sure. If there’s Black students on campus, I want them to see how seamless it should be to, one, do good work for the university, but then also make sure you’re still seen in your spaces and not sort of having this gap between “Oh, that’s Louis. But we have no idea who he is.” Or he has no ideas (of) what is the regular Black student facing on campus. And I think that was one of the things that I really wanted to do, as a student, even as a student leader, is always make sure that, one, I was seen in those spaces, but then encourage the students who were in those spaces “Hey, because you’re a leader in this space, that means you could lead anywhere on campus. Don’t forget to come back and make sure you’re in multiple spaces at once.” But I was like “That’s what the university needs! They need to see Black people, whether you originated in the Center, because (it’s) a place of comfort.” I’m like “They need to see you in every facet of the university because like why not!” But that’s how I used to treat my relationship to the Black Student Center. I hope I answered that question. Ho: Yeah. For sure. Thank you. Okay. So, tell me. You mentioned Jamaéla and Tiffaney. Tell me about different leaders on the project and their contributions, including any unsung heroes that maybe we don’t know about because there are always unsung heroes. Adamsel: Yeah. I’m totally blanking on people’s names and times because it was a while ago and Tiffaney and Jamaéla might beat me up. I do remember there was a Karen Guzman. I remember she used to work closely with Tiffaney and Jamaéla in getting support of different people. Ho: Was she a student? Adamsel: Yes. She was a student, and I don’t really know how she chooses to identify herself. Like Chincanx, Latinx. But I know she was a pusher of this space as well as a pusher for the Latina Center. Um, man, other folks. I think the entire Black community might get a pat on the back for pushing this. Thinking about Akilah Wiggins, I believe she was one of the first people to tell me to go to a BSU meeting and then, ultimately, leading me to work in conjunction with Tiffaney and Jamaéla. And, yeah, anybody else who I forget, they(’re) going to probably have to come and talk to me because I’m probably forgetting a lot more names. But there were a lot of unsung heroes. And, for me, even when it comes to unsung heroes, that’s one of the things that I also think about, is as the space grew and as it came to be what it is today, I’m thinking about even all the student workers who worked in the Black Student Center when it first opened. I think about the first director, Anthony Jett. I think about where the space is now from where it was, and I’m—even people like Dr. G(eoffrey Gilmore) or—man, some of our Student Life and Leadership folks that I’m forgetting. But, again, from where it is then to where it is now, that growth, those events, the events that were in person, our Black Faculty Staff Association, I feel like every single Black group on the campus they organize in a way to where they needed to be in that space at some point. And when it comes to that leadership on this, man, there were so many leaders. But it was just something that Black students felt they needed. And then not only felt they needed but then came together to get it. I think that was really powerful. And, yeah, like I said, it was a lot of unsung heroes. But I think, ultimately, everyone’s last vision, from the time it was a spark in someone’s mind to the time they had their first-year anniversary, even coming on multiple year anniversaries to our current director now, I think everybody’s vision is really just to make that space for Black students, one, to feel recognized, to feel seen but then also this is not a soaking pool. This should be the jump-off point. You might come hear introduction to the university but you’re going to bounce off going in so many different paths. But, ultimately, your first relationship to the university, unlike me, unlike some of the unsung heroes, our first relationship to the university wasn’t a Black Student Center. It was just relationships with each other. And if you couldn’t walk past a Black student on campus without knowing their name, that was the conversation. You go “Hey, hey. You know, I haven’t seen you before. You might be a commuter. You might be—whoever you are but we need to know a name so we can at least invite you to our next outing, our next poolside, our next, community service, anything.” But, yeah, thank you for that question. Ho: Sure, yeah. If you think of peoples’ names as we’re talking, please feel free to mention them. Adamsel: Oh, yeah. Of course. I’ll make sure I’ll throw them out. Ho: Okay. Great. So, you mentioned vision and purpose for the Black Student Center. Tell me what the vision and mission and purpose were and what they are now, or as recently as—since we’re not at the university anymore. Adamsel: Man, you know, John— Ho: I mean not word for word but in your opinion. Adamsel: I’m like John might have to hurt me (Jen laughs) because I don’t know the mission, the vision today. But I think that mission—because this is going to have to come off the top of the head and this is going to be mission-based on what I felt, and vision based on what I’ve seen—I think that mission was to create an environment to where Black students felt seen. They felt a little bit protected because they were among people who shared their common experiences along with themselves. And I think it also created a space to where you can be around your peers who share those same experiences. And then, maybe, if people who were not a part of your ethnic background, they want to come in and try to be an ally, try to learn a little bit. It also creates a space for other people to come in and see you in your spaces, how you interact, the events that you put on, and hopefully learn a little bit about your community so they could be better people, better allies. I think the vision, when it comes to the space, is making sure you achieve that Black excellence in the school setting, feel supported by your peers. But then it also—the vision is bringing in that Black faculty and staff component, making sure these students are supported, making sure that if there are other allies in the faculty staff around campus, like “Hey, if you want to come find this prominent group of Black students, people who are involved, if you need to pull things, this creates a space where everybody is on campus.” And let’s say they’re looking for Black students to get involved or mentor, it allows you that area to where you can pull from. And even if you’re not solely pulling from that space as a resource of Black students, it also allows that to be a beacon on campus for Black students as they’re coming, as they’re commuting, like “Hey. I didn’t know this space existed. Boom! Let me pop in there. I don’t only have to be in like a commuter line. Or I don’t only have to be in a library study room.” And then going back to that connectivity and that nature, having that Black Student Center is that homing beacon when we’re on campus. I feel like it adds to our retention, or it should add to the retention. I’m not going to spit out the numbers and say has this done what we expected it to do? But that vision is to increase that campus presence, to increase your interaction with the campus because we all understand building a relationship with a space. Building that relationship with a space will ultimately enhance your relationship to the university. Getting more involved, typically more times than not, will allow students to keep their GPA up, their GPA requirements on things, be a little bit more focused, have more peers around, build better relationships. So, you end up leaving college better than you found it but then you also leave college with a larger network, a couple more experiences—some great experiences at that—and a little bit more understanding of who you are in relationship to the entire world. Ho: Thank you. So, these items that you mention—increasing your network, increasing retention, being a beacon for Black students—are these what the students and faculty and staff had in mind when they were pushing for the Black Student Center? Or was there anything else? Adamsel: Yeah. I think they were pushing for that, and I think some of the students would say I sometimes debate with the phrase “Safe Space.” Yeah, this is a space for you to grow. I don’t necessarily—I work crisis. I don’t necessarily think every single space is safe. I still—We got to do our due diligence. But when we look at the space, I think people wanted it to be a space where they can come see a little bit of history, learn a little bit about their peers. And, ultimately, this is the catalyst for Black students, whether it was research, tutoring. This is the hub. And I think that was the vision that Black faculty, staff, and students wanted to see because, when we came on campus, just the fact of we’re walking up Chavez stairs just like the rest of them, and we’d go all the way to the back of the school. And this is 2013. We go all the way to the back of the school still to meet in like Mark 101, Mark 103, 102. And that was our commute. And we’d see everybody at U-hour. We’re walking all the way across campus or sometimes we’d be in SBSB, you know, walk across campus. We always had to do a migration. But even when the Black—I mean, not the Black student but when the USU was built, the University Student Union was built, we see all these groups in the space. We understand what could be possible, what could be done. But we didn’t have it. And, pushing for that, it’s like okay. Well, we know what we could have. They look like they’re having a good time. They look like their events are awesome. There’s cross-functioning, cross-collaboration going on. There’s support from the university. There is support from Student Life and Leadership. There’s support from our Vice President of Student University Affairs. All these groups have it. We don’t. So, when you see that support from the university, it makes you look and say it looks like in some shape or form, it may not be in entirety that the university is supporting, but just these spaces existing on Cal State San Marco’s campus, that allowed Black students to realize like wow! This is how the university chose to support this, and this is how we are supported. And when you look at differences, differences can sometimes be blatant explanations without needing to say anything. The imagery that I see, the events that I see put on, I’m walking my day-to-day path through the university. I’m feeling the relationship that I am in with the university. But somebody else might feel their relationship is different, based on what they identify with, based on the spaces they can go into and see themselves represented, whether it’s in imagery, whether it’s in dialogue, whether it’s events. And if I get events coming up the end of January ‘til the beginning of March, then I know like oh, wow! This is how you see me. This is how you choose to view me. And this is going to be your relationship with me. Ho: Thank you. I have a list of questions here, but I went way off, just following your— (both chuckle) Adamsel: Oh. It’s all right. Ho: Okay. So, did you experience or witness any push back to the creation of the Black Student Center? Adamsel: Yeah. But I think I experienced it in a multitude of ways. I think there was push back coming from places that you never would think. Ho: Like what? Adamsel: I think there was push back from student government, on meetings when there would be topics in conversation where it’s like public, like you could see people speaking against bringing on the Black Student Center. And to be honest, I don’t think I really was in those meetings that much, invested. But when I was there, I could see it, or even reading the meeting minutes afterwards, I’m like dang! I didn’t know this person was against it or for it. When the culmination of the Center was starting, I think Cal State San Marcos might have posted something about it, one way or another. And I think there was a multitude of comments, hundreds of comments where it was like “We don’t need spaces for Black people,” dah, dah, dah, dah. It’s crazy to see people just against cultural identifiable spaces. It’s like “Why do you all need a safe space? We don’t have one.” And they don’t understand that relationship. Or “Why do you feel like you need to go into a Black Student Center? We think you’re going to just hide out in there. This doesn’t need to be a space for your hiding. If you want to be accepted, then go places where everybody is and then you’ll be accepted.” Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And it’s just funny how people’s understanding of what you mean by “safe space” means or what some people meant by having a Center, whether it talks about their identity needs, their racial identity needs. I’m just like, man. For me, I think sometimes the pushback was very weird. Or it wouldn’t be pushback, but when you look at the amount of people that felt uncomfortable just walking past our spaces or even being in the space, and you could see a person who wasn’t Black. They might meet somebody who’s Black that’s in the space, might be a friend. But then they’d be lingering at the door like “Hey. Can you come on out?” People just feel awkward when they go into a space that, overall, the majority doesn’t look like them. They’re scared to go in, and they feel awkward going in. But then, when you say, “This is how I feel when everywhere doesn’t look like me,” it’s hard for them to picture it. And I’m like, “Oh. You feel that way when you come into our space. That’s how I feel (when) I’m in your space.” But it’s funny when people can’t do a quick flip in their mind and see like ah! This is probably why you want it and need it. (chuckles) Ho: Yeah. I get what you’re saying. I know who you’re talking about. (both laugh) All right. What did Uiversity Administration communicate was their vision for the Black Student Center, if you remember? Adamsel: Mmm, I don’t know. I know when I was a senior, I did an independent study project with Dreama Moon. And I spoke about the—I forget the title of this independent reader study project—but I spoke about how the university can bring forward something like a Black Student Center and they hope that it would—I think their vision was this will fix all of our problems with the Black community, and we will make this space. And your relationship with the campus, Black students’ relationships with the university, ultimately it will be fixed. And, for me, I think in my research—that was one of the things that I noticed because I felt a way about it—I was like yeah, just because there’s a Black Student Center, that doesn’t mean that the university has fully acknowledged everything that the Black students are going through and then is working to fix (it). Because the Black Student Center is the smallest center in the university student union. But it’s just one center. It only had one director. The budget may have been whatever it was. It was probably—still, it’s a budget. It’s limited. And if the organization, the university, doesn’t change, those Black students that are in that space still don’t feel confident to go out and be leaders on campus. They still might not feel confident to go off and explore different areas. I didn’t necessarily want the Black Student Center to be a safe haven. I wanted it to be a place of exploration, research. You start here but you go anywhere you want on campus. But in order for you to feel like you can be anywhere on campus, that campus has to be inviting. That campus has to be doing more from the top. We need to see it probably in leadership. We need to see it in mentorship. We need to see it in recruitment and retention rates. And these are all things that I cared about. And so, when I was on campus, I worked in whether it was like hiring diversity, on diversity committees, or sitting in African American retention committees. I see the numbers. I see what we’re doing. But ultimately, all that just funneled my thoughts and we’re not doing enough because if we were doing enough, they would feel comfortable. They wouldn’t want to leave. They would be present. But all the people that were being present, again, they consolidated in that Center. And I don’t think it was the Center’s fault. I think it was just acknowledgment that the university thought the Center was the end all, be all. But Black students, people, we naturally need more. We want more. But it takes more than just a space to make anybody feel comfortable to say, “Okay. This university is it. I want to be, ultimately, involved.” And so, yeah, just going off that. I don’t feel that the university administration really—whatever their vision was, I don’t think they pushed it, from top to bottom. It wasn’t reflected in policies. It wasn’t reflected in hiring. It wasn’t reflected in Black faculty and staff numbers. I just didn’t see it. But that’s just me. If there’s some numbers out there that have prove me wrong, show them. (both laugh) Ho: So, are you saying that, based on what you saw, Administration was just like “Okay. Here’s your Center. That’s it. We gave you enough.” Is that, basically, the impression you got? Adamsel: Yeah. That was basically it. I think that the Center was that space to give. It was a place like “We’re going to give this to you. You have it. This should be enough. And we’re going to take a step back.” This is a smaller population. You might be 2.5-3% but this is not a population. I think that should have probably been a red flag. This is a population to cultivate. This is a population—it may be a small representation of our campus but hey, if we cultivate this group, if we make sure we do everything in our power that this group succeeds, we might not be getting monies from federal sources or resources or anything like that. But, for me, I realize taking that initiative and putting that foot forward for any student, I feel like we have pockets of Black faculty and staff overworking to make sure we felt accepted. And there were students who wanted to make sure that the next student felt accepted. But man, that would have felt good coming from the university with university backing, with programs and resources from the jump. I think about people like Floyd Lai of the Cross-Cultural Center, Andreas Favela, even Francisco Checa, EOP. All these other groups, all these other resources may have been there for underserved students and even showing Black students “Hey, you call can do mentorships. You all can have that.” And I love watching other spaces, how they worked and how other groups, even if you come from a minority represented population—looking at CAMP (College Assistance Migrant Program) students, TRIO, even international students—every population on our campus has the ability to get backing and support and budget outlined for that specific thing. And I loved—I always imagined it like rungs on a ladder. If I was a LatinX student or if I was a white student, how many rungs on the ladder—if I slipped and fell off this ladder—how many rungs would I hit on this ladder until I fell off into nothingness? Am I going to see counselors I could potentially train with? Are there student groups that I could reach out to? Are there counselors or things or events that are specifically targeted to me to where I can hit every step at Cal State San Marcos before I ultimately fall off? And therefore, I feel like Black students, especially Black male students, Black female students, man, there’s not a lot of opportunities to pick you up if you fail. If you fail your first year, your second year, and you decide to fall off the wayside and not come back, how many people or how many organizations would be there to “Oh, we’re really geared towards retention. We’re really geared to making sure you felt safe, comfortable, understood.” I didn’t see that much. And so, for me, that was always on the forefront of my head. Ho: Thank you. Okay. Can you tell me about—Actually, were you at the grand opening of the Black Student Center? Adamsel: Yeah. It was a lovely event. Ho: Okay. All right. Have you seen the same level of support for the Center over the years since it opened? Adamsel: When it opened, I did see some support. I think I saw some university administration go in there and at least try to visit the space. And I think I saw a lot of faculty members across— whether they were in the arts, history, communications professors. I feel like a lot of people chose to partner with the Black Student Center when it first opened. And I saw events out the wazoo. But I think the biggest thing when—And so we’re focusing on partnerships, right? Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: Yeah. So, I think a lot of people came, especially from the opening. Well, it was even before the opening because I feel like it was open a little bit before the grand opening. And so, I feel a lot of people across the university wanted to come and see it, if they supported it. And they even urged their students to go out and come support it. And the grand opening was a great event with performances, food. I believe the president even spoke at the grand opening. And so, seeing that representation from university administration and seeing that support, it showcased like oh, this is what it could be. And the amount of students that were able to come and just because it was a space, whether they wanted to see it or not, they were like wow! Intrigued that this is all happening. And this might be a smaller Center but the things that took place, whether it was on the grand opening day or right after and the years to come, it seemed like it was booming. I think ultimately the Center has transformed from the things that it has done now, one, because of Covid, but even before Covid, I feel like the transformation was really geared at involvement, events, and then really gearing up partnerships. And I think, especially with the hiring of—I forget her title but sort of like the overall—Gail Cole-Avent, Dr. Gail Cole-Avent, what her role in managing all the spaces and those leaders from all those spaces, being able to come together. I image the partnerships are even on another scale now because they are able to communicate calendars and everything. But it’s nice to see the events just being churned out. It’s nice to see that the students have such a greater involvement. And I think—because before, when the Center first started, I think the university presence was like “Hey. Let’s let this Center cultivate.” But now I’m starting to see more “Hey, Black Students. We’re having new policies come out about retention. We’re having new policies come out about—We’re going to go into a study about the Black student experience, especially working with that BSC, Black Student Center.” So, I see the difference and before it was “Hey. We’re going to let the Black Student Center thrive and flourish by itself.” It can go up in flames or it can fly off into the sunset. But I didn’t see more policies supporting the students on a microlevel. Are we talking about how we’re getting students in? Are we talking about how we’re keeping them here. Hey, if the BSC is doing this, are the faculty/staff doing this? Is the university doing this? The onus shouldn’t only be on the students. What about the environment that they’re in? and I think, especially with people going back to campus this Fall, in the Fall of 2021, I’m excited to see hey, are those university policies that are slowly being implemented, what are they doing to make sure that we’re retaining? And not only retaining, are we growing? Is there any possibility of getting past that 3%? Is there any possibility to make students feel comfortable on this campus? And it can be done. But it starts off with things like policies and people really reviewing. One of the things that I pushed back on, even when I was a student, as student government president, I even made that motion to say, “Hey. ASI should separate” because we have the Gender Equity Center and the LGBTQA Center, both great centers, but ASI was having them on their budget. Whereas the university budgets for Centers were different. And I just looked at it like wow. This is the Black Student Center. ASI doesn’t have the money in their budget. Cross Cultural Center is not on our budget. It’s all different. And when I look at the amount of differences, man, this is a lack of equity. And so, especially based on population, that’s all I care about. Are we going to give students in every single space the same opportunity to feel seen, feel accepted, and then also make sure that these university areas have great cross-functional relationships so people don’t feel afraid to learn and support another group, even if you’re not a part of that group? Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And I think if the university continues on that equity-based leadership, that thought process, they could get a much better space of identifying there’s an issue, even if students bring it up, even if you’re being reactive. If students bring up an issue, taking that time to listen to what the students are saying and say “Oh, they say they don’t feel supported. What can we do? They say there’s not enough resources for them. What can we do?” But, yeah, it starts with leadership. It starts with policy. And I think that’s the biggest thing. Ho: Definitely. Thank you for that. Going back a little, you mentioned some partnerships between the different centers. Do the different centers work together a lot in your experience? Adamsel: I think it could be better, at least from what I’ve seen. I do think a lot of times, when I was a student, I used to see other spaces come into the BSC, the Black Student Center, dropping off flyers and say “Hey, make sure you all come to my event,” drop off flyers and say “Come. Come. Come.” But it was never like y’all are doing something. We wholeheartedly want to support you. And there would be some opportunity for that. I don’t want to say none of these spaces I ever supported. But I did see some spaces would come into the Black Student Center to promote, and you know, “Hey. Bring your people. Yeah, we got free food. We got—” Maybe they had the budget to do free food. But they’d be like “Hey, you know, we got this. Come.” But when it was, we’re promoting, whether it was historical movie night or historical U-hour, sometimes they would be slow to come. And I think one of the things, especially from our first Director, Anthony Jett, that was one of the things that he would do, is work on those relationships. And I think, even from Anthony Jett to John Rawlins (III), those relationships as a Black Student Center Director are very important. But then it also—one of the things that I also have to acknowledge about those relationships as a Director to the university is they probably have so many different things and policies and ideas that they have to work on and manage as well as events. So, it depends on their relationships. But then I know it also probably depends on the people in those spaces, continuously building that comfort and that support network. And the people in other spaces, we all have to be in that mindset of okay, I’m going to help you get to that next step because either I’m there or I just want to help you out of the kindness of my heart. And I think people, the more that they started coming out and interacting with the Black Student Center, especially from those different identity or cultural spaces, they ultimately got more comfortable, more and more, to do it with the Black Student Center. And nowadays, you see collaboration of events starting, Boom! at the beginning of the semester. We’re going to all get out there, showcase what we all have. And then, I’m starting to see different—You know, “Let’s look at this culture through your lens.” Or “We’re going to all go to the Black Student Center, in collaboration with—” So, I see these relationships are booming. Ho. Mm-hmm. Adamsel: You know, longevity, time, people, these relationships are only going to get stronger. I think in the first couple years, first year or two, we’re going to see that mesh sort of happening and what’s our relationship to each other? How can we support each other? You’re sort of figuring that out. And I think a lot of the other spaces—I think that’s one of the things they had on the Black Student Center is they had probably been there for a little bit. So, maybe that’s one of the things that they were also able to do, sort of give that road map. “Oh, the Black Student Center can host an event like this,” or “We can collaborate with Student Life and Leadership like this.” So, I appreciated seeing that, the growing pains, the relationship building. But ultimately, I don’t think it’s anything that’s especially to a relationship building, I don’t think it’s anything that’s built overnight. And it's just a continuous effort and a continuous mindset to say this is what we want to do, and we really want to support this group of students, this area, the best way we can. And it has to come from the entire community. Ho: Thank you. You mentioned Historical U-Hour, Historical Moving On. Is that what you said? Adamsel: Historical with what? Ho: I don’t know. In terms of programming, you mentioned Historical U-Hour, and then Historical something else. And I was just wondering what those were. Adamsel: Yeah. So, U-Hour, 12-1 hour on the university. And I think it’s like Tuesdays and Thursdays. Well, it may have only been Tuesday. I think it was Tuesday and Thursday when there’s typically no class, from 12-1. So, typically groups and events would take place 12-1. And so, historically, when it came to U-Hour, some of these groups and events had already been out there, whether it’s promoting events, doing different things. And I think they took those experiences, one, it showed the Black Student Union this is how it’s done. And then, the Black Student Union, when the BSC came to be, it was like Boom! We have students who already identify how to throw events, how to work with Student Life and Leadership or ASI to get funding. And even when we got directors—Now, our directors probably have budgets and so they’re able to let us know how they can partner and make the best things for students. But those other spaces, in that relationship, they also use that historical nature of U-Hour to partner, do partnerships, even afternoon events, different things like that. So, I did like that time. And like I said, it’s just ultimately growth together and, through time and longevity, probably get that rhythm of, hey, this partnership was straight. Let’s continue on that partnership. Or what can we do to enhance anything that we’re doing? Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. So, tell me, in your experience, what has been the Black Student Center’s impact on the campus community, as well as you personally? Adamsel: I think their impact on the campus community has been amazing. It has allowed the university to have the support in a different way. (looks off the right in thought) So, wait. Can you repeat that question because I want to try to connect that? Ho: Sure. Yeah. Sure. What’s been the BSC’s impact on the campus community as well as the impact on you, personally? Adamsel: Okay. So, the campus community I think is impacted. It’s a decent impact. It’s not anything that has caused waves of change, at least when it first came. And, to this day, I think it can be a beacon of change. But the impact was it gave students a beacon, Black students particularly. It gave us an area to where it’s like, okay, orientation efforts. Can we focus on making sure that they’re coming? Communications are routed through the BSC. Can we get representation that way? Our impact with involvement, it has impacted that. It has allowed Black students to take up leadership roles in areas, whether they’re student workers, whether it is giving tours to different people about the space. It has allowed us to host a majority of different things and even allowed areas like Black Student Union to meet or hold events. It has been a catalyst for the students that were there as well as faculty and staff to understand like hey, if I wanted to come during U-Hour and sit and learn or sit and chat with current students about what I do, maybe opportunities for mentorship, I’m like wow! They already know where they can come to do that or come to get information on how to do it and how to further impact our students. So, I feel like the impact has really been on a community level. It has been broadening. It has allowed faculty, staff from all areas in university leadership, all areas to have a beacon point to not really see the entire Black population but to see, okay, if we wanted to talk to people who see current students or even get feedback, bounce ideas off, how can we best serve the needs of students today? At least it gives the university—this could probably be like the north star along with some of the Black student organizations. And when I talk about another piece, it’s organization, you know. If students have issues or they feel like they can’t go to student government or they want to talk about administrative or other things like that, the Black Student Center Director also can create that environment to where now it’s okay, you have another person in the leadership capacity through his relationships, through her relationships. I don’t want to say like his or her because they might see this on video in a couple of years. It might be a different person. (chuckles) But that director can be another person to carry their ideas forward. And, yeah, so the impact. Again, amazing for what it’s doing now. Can it be better? Yes. We all want the best for that space. But I think ultimately that impact has impacted the Black student life on campus in a decent way. And now, the impact of Black Student Center, I want it to have an impact on policy in the entire university as a whole to where hopefully we get to a point where you ask somebody how to get to the Black Student Center. Hopefully any faculty on campus can let you know where it is, or they understand about the importance of why it’s there and make some time in their role on Cal State San Marcos to visit. Now, when you get into the impact that it had on me, I’m the kind of person—I feel like I would have been who I was regardless of the space. I’m that kind of person. I feel like I would have been a great human being. I would have been a decent human being. But when it comes to the Black Student Center now, my opportunity for change started way before that because I feel like it was just being around my peers in a different way. And I think that initiation started when I got involved with the Black Student Union, even bringing Omega Psi Phi, which is a historically Black fraternity on campus. We are able to join that. And I think just around my peers, and it started with the BSU. It started with involvement with other organizations. But when the BSC came, I’m like man. It kept me grounded. It kept me—My ear was always to the needs of all students, but specifically Black students. And then I also saw myself represented. I felt like I was able to provide feedback and talk to people with similar experiences as me. I was able to get involved with mentorship areas. I think that relationship that I had, even when I became a staff at Cal State San Marcos, I was even able to have a relationship with John and some of the other students and meeting with Black male students and faculty and staff, meeting with all students, holding events, be faculty advisors for different organizations. It was lovely and I think their impact on me, it’s profound. Like I said, it just—I don’t know—it motivated me to do better for them to make sure that I could always support them because that’s what I felt I needed. And I think that’s one of the best parts about this space is, as a Black student, if you choose to get involved, you’re going to notice gaps in what you see or what you felt as a student. And ultimately, when you have a chance to get involved in any capacity, you’re going to figure out, okay, how do I make the next student not feel how I felt if I felt discontent. And when it comes to Black students in Black spaces, they might have extra challenges on how they may feel discontent, whether it’s through microaggressions, whether it’s through lack of understanding, whether it’s through lack of Black leadership, whether it’s anything. So, taking it a step further, especially with Black students, I’m like “Hey. We probably noticed the same things. You probably felt the same way I felt when you first got here. You probably feel like there is not enough black representation at this space. But what can I do to bridge that gap? What can I do to make sure that if I could take a little bit of that away, will I get you to stay another semester? Let’s get you into something that you actually like to do. And if not, how about I point you into the direction of the doctor Muhammads, the doctor Geoffrey Gilmores, the professor Rawlins, the Black Student Center Director. What can we do to make sure somewhere along the way,” —even LaPorcha, over at Student Life when she was here—“what can we do to tap you into someone that can help you? And I think about the people like Gezai Berhane up in Student Life and Leadership or Marilyn McWilliams, Ariel Stevenson. And that was also an impact point for them, too. They are working in Office of Diversity or Student Life and Leadership and Black people as well, the BFSA (Black Faculty Staff Association), all those folks are going right there and getting people involved where they are because it’s like they know you get involved, you start coming, you start insisting, you’re going to have a job to do on the campus. You’re going to associate this campus with a little bit more than just go to class, go home, go to class, go to the BSC, go home. You’re getting some skin in the game. So, I think that’s what everybody started doing and ultimately that’s what—I didn’t need the BSC to do it, but I think the students in the BSC ultimately gave me way more skin in the game than I wanted. But it was necessary, and I loved them for it. Ho: That’s lovely, thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Two more questions, and they can be as short or as long as you want but are there any, I don’t know, behind the scenes stories you want to share? Or anything else you want to say about the Black Student Center or your time at Cal State San Marcos so that one hundred years from now, when you and I are gone, the stories are going to still exist. Anything else? Adamsel: I felt I got some fabulous stories about my time at San Marcos, but I don’t know if I care to go into all of them. I think I did sort of tell one about—I spoke about being a student government leader and, lightly, I’d spoke about addressing the fact that ASI was housing two spaces. And we didn’t house the BSC, the Black Student Center. The Latina Center was not sponsored by us. The Cross-Cultural Center wasn’t sponsored by us. But we sponsored the LGBTQA and Gender Equity Center. And, for me, I think it’s so weird being in the position of leadership and seeing—And it may not even feel like inequity to people. But people can live life and you can be doing something, and you can look at budgeting and everything like that and you can be like “Wow, I’m housing these two spaces.” And then I look at Black Student Center and it’s not equity. They’re not getting the same—They’re not even probably getting the same percentage. Or look at the Cross-Cultural Center. See what people are able to do in the scope of a university and see what the university values. And the university can say they value something, they value Black students. But we don’t all have the same sort of carrot, sort of the same opportunity to have the quality of events, everything. And I think that was one of the things that—It was weird because when I’d spoke about cutting ASI off away from those two spaces, (sighs) man, the directors, the people, the students in those spaces. That was like a funny time for me because I’m a leader. And I spoke to my Board about it, and I was like “Hey man, they’ve got to probably come off this budget.” One, students were not happy. There was a small pocket of students and I don’t want to take anything away from my friends and colleagues in Gender Equity Center and LGBTQA because I don’t think that’s something that a student should protest. But students were right because ASI student fees, they come out of everybody. And I think some of the students were upset that my student fees are coming out of something and paying and sponsoring something I don’t believe in. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And as a student, I was like “Man. These people are talking crazy! But they’re right.” Because if I believe in—You could believe in any—I could believe in McDonald’s. If I go choose to spend my money at McDonald’s, that’s great. But I shouldn’t be able to take your money, if you don’t believe in McDonald’s, and spend it at McDonald’s. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: But as students, I’m like how do you combat this? And then you don’t have to combat it. I think the university should create a space to where they’re like ‘Here, we believe in our Native American brothers and sisters whose land this is. Here, we believe in Chicanx, Latinx students. We believe and support Black students. We believe and support all gender identities.’” I’m like “That’s the university. That’s what the university should say.” And if people step into the university, they should understand this is a place where we value all of that. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: Now, if their monies don’t—Their monies are probably going to go to it because they pay tuition. You’re going to pay tuition, that’s cool. But it shouldn’t be in a place where they can attack it. And student government was a place that policies could change, where they can attack it. I’m like I’m president today, but if a president 10 years from now chose to dissolve these places—I mean, it’ll probably be hard to do but under student government these places are under attack. And unless you have all the spaces in that area under attack, then you can’t do it. Unless you have all those spaces getting the same budget, you shouldn’t be able to do it. But the one thing that stuck with me was the amount of students talking to me, as a Black man on campus, loved by some, hated by some. But they came to attack me, to tell me I didn’t care about those spaces. I remember that. They came to tell me I didn’t know the definition. You know, I’m a Black man, senior on campus, Communication major. I love it all. Educated. And they came to tell me “You don’t know the definition of intersectionality. You don’t understand us.” And all I’m trying to do is make sure when I go see Black students in their space that they’ve got the same resources. I’m looking at ASI. We can push out hundreds of events for our different centers that we hold. But for other areas we don’t print. We don’t host events for them. We don’t do that. And I wanted to mentally take ASI away from serving some and make sure we push the university. I think, when I used to have meetings with President (Karen) Haynes, I spoke to her and I was like—I was doing my own research, my own due diligence, going through old meeting minutes to figure out why do we keep these spaces? And Black Student Center came up, Latina Center came up. What made the university take those spaces? And through research, through communication with Dr. Checa, Lorena Checa, and talking to ASI—I was even looking at the inaugural addresses that President Haynes had. And I think sometime along the line, I think it was like 2104 or something like that, she was like “We value the LGBTQA Gender Equity Center.” I took that and ran with it. (chuckles) And I was in a meeting with her, and I was like “People are attacking these ASI spaces. What can we do to make sure these spaces, as well as the Black Student Center, Cross-Cultural Center, Latina Center, I want to make sure that these spaces all have that umbrella.” Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And then, a couple of months later, I think I was on a hiring committee for Dr. Gayle Cole-Avent. (laughs) It was lovely to see her being there in that space, all under the same umbrella like I envisioned, and then ASI being a new catalyst where you see the food pantry vision, the student at events side with CAB (Campus Activities Board), the Board representing student needs. You can’t look at ASI now and try to attack any piece because every single piece services everyone. And not only that, ASI is now that space to where they can connect to every single identity space, cultural space, and again, allow each one to grow in their own right. And I’m so proud of that but I think coming into a space where you’re a Black man at Cal State San Marcos and people are attacking you for wanting everything to be equal, and to let you know even though people necessarily route for you, when something is—if they deem something is attacking them, instead of understanding, sometimes, first they’ll be uncomfortable and then they’ll attack. And then, you just hope years down the line as time goes on, you’re like “Okay. I hope that you can see what my vision was, and your relationship in that, and you lost nothing by promoting me.” And sometimes, I think people think like “If we try to make everything—I’m going to lose something, or my salary might go down or my events or who’s going to do this?” No. You don’t lose nothing by making sure that everyone has a piece of the whole. And yeah, so that was a fun story. Ho: Yeah. Adamsel: I don’t know if all of that is in meeting minutes somewhere. But I laugh thinking about the past. (chuckles) Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that when the Gender Equity Center and the LGBT Center were under ASI, you wanted to move them over to the university but there was push back for you moving those two centers to the university? Adamsel: Yeah. And my Board—I spoke to my executive Board, and I was like “Got a crazy idea.” And when Louis has got crazy ideas, I’m the President. My team, bless them, they supported me. I explained it. I spoke about equity. I spoke about what the vision was, and I hoped they got it. And so, we took that to the main Board of Directors, and I said, “This is what I want to do.” Now, when those Centers and those leaders and some of those students got wind of it, then there was an opportunity for them to come and tell me to my face about their feelings, their emotions, how what I was doing was wrong, how much they hated that thought that we could just push them out. I think they thought ASI is kicking you to the curb because there is some—I don’t know if they thought ASI—They thought Louis was— (laughs) Ho: It was more personal. Adamsel: —and to see ASI, oh—even though we had a great relationship before then, instantly it became why can’t we be a part of ASI anymore? Even though our missions are the same—I mean, are not the same. Our visions are different. What we’re servicing on a day-to-day basis is different. It just became a different relationship instantly the moment I brought that to the forefront. And like I said, I think it’s because the mindset relationship to I’m going to lose something if you do X, Y, or Z. And now, upon explaining it, some of those students in those spaces came to me, “Louis, love you. When I first heard about it, I was not cool with it. But when you explained it, it made sense.” And then some were like “I ain’t talking to you.” (laughs) And that’s understood. And the leadership, pro-staff, students, no matter how they felt, I knew how I felt about equity. I knew how I felt as a Black student. I knew how I felt when you walk into events and you see what people are able to do, the magnitude, the budget, the promotion, and you’re like “Wow, that space can’t do that.” And there are still students to this day that don’t have spaces. But I’m like, “Man. In the future, Cal State San Marcos is going to grow and grow and continue to make spaces for people and identities. If we choose to make spaces, can we ultimately decide that this will be under that umbrella? And student government can be a little bit more of an assisting tool as a jump-off point, as a financial resource for all students.” But I just didn’t want it to be anything that people combatted. And I was really surprised to see pushback. But it happens. Ho: Yeah. For sure. And when you’re in a position like you were in, you’re always going to have to deal with it, I suppose. Adamsel: Yeah. And I think I knew that. But I think pushback is weird coming from people who also very well are attacked. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: People are marginalized. People are—They may face similar struggles or very different struggles than me. But when I get to a point of leadership, I want people—If I’m acknowledging the issues that you may have in society or in life or in navigating the university, I want you to be able to sort of have the same selfless nature and acknowledge how things might not be equal to anyone. And when we can do that, then it’s like okay, we can always have a conversation with anyone because then you’re able to put yourself metaphorically in somebody else’s shoes. And I think that’s the biggest thing. And I think, as a leader, that’s one of the things that allowed me to get along with just about anyone and everyone because I’m able to talk to you and be like “Okay. Have you considered this? Or is there anything about you and your needs that I need to consider? And through conversation and communication, we get to the bottom of that.” But there are sometimes there’s people that don’t want to talk. And they don’t want to have to develop and change their views, even for a little bit, because that means I have to give something up. And if you think you have to give something up just for somebody else to be comfortable, to feel seen, to have that same equity that you do, then I’m like you don’t really want change. You just want to be comfortable. You want to be there by yourself on an island of comfort. Yeah. Exactly. And I think you can expect it from certain people, certain groups. Like if somebody is blatantly, overtly racist, you can expect it from that person. But when it comes from a person, you’re like “Oh, you can be a person of color. You can be a marginalized community. You can be—” You know, even in my community. It’s like you expect yourself to have the same views and values. You may not. And that’s okay. But you just push through it. And you learn and see okay, what can I do to bypass that pushback? And try to—I think that was one thing special, as a Black male student leader. I used to have to be calm, reserved. And I used to have to think strategically, to the point, because I know how I can be perceived on a day-to-day basis. And I know in certain spaces, you’re not going to come talk to me. And in certain places, I would be disrespected. But I’m just like “Wow. It’s crazy.” Because if I lose my cool, I could be taken off into a totally different direction. (talks as if mimicking students) “Oh, he doesn’t care about us. What a mean person!” So, I understood how—even going back, I understood my relationship to people and my relationship to the university. And it’s a crazy thing to acknowledge, but that was one of the things that, being a student there, being student government president, working in leadership, catering to students, and even being a professional staff, I always had to be mindful of who I was in my relationship to people because I knew, especially based on who I am, I could easily be misconstrued. Ho: Thank you. Okay. Are there any questions that I should have asked but didn’t? Adamsel: Hhmmm. (laughs) Nah. I mean I don’t’ know. I have no idea. (Jenn laughs) Well, actually, you didn’t talk about the social justice activism. Ho: Yes. I did not ask that question. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: Would you like to go into that? How has Black social justice and activism, such as the Civil Rights Movement, Feminism, the Natural Hair Movement, and Black Lives Matter affected you? Thank you for calling it out. Adamsel: I think those movements affected me in different ways all over. When I think about the Civil Rights Movement and different things like that, I correlate the Civil Rights Movement going back to—think about Martin Luther King but even thinking about Martin Luther King and communities like Black communities in that day, pushing for equality, equity, and civil rights. I think back to education. I think of Carter G. Woodson, Mis-education of the Negro. I think about people pushing for Black people to be educated. And so, when I look at the Black populations on campus, I think back to, man, equity. What are we doing to change that generation from the generation before us? What are we doing to push more Black professionals into the workforce? Hopefully with as little overhead as possible, and getting them into the career fields, one, that they love but also making sure that they have the network not only to do what they love and then succeed and excel at it. When it came to the Natural Hair Movement, I’m in that all day, with the little bit that I have. But I think that was something where when I’d seen the Natural Hair Movement, I saw that take place on campus to where men and women in our spaces, you know, “Let’s create these events that our natural hair shows” and getting more Black businesses into our university and making sure when Black students are at campus at Cal State San Marcos, they know the local barbers, the local hair stylists that can do what they need to do, whether it’s protective styles, wear your natural hair. I like that because it builds a sense of community within our group but then it also builds a sense of collaboration in our area, increasing that network. When I think about feminism, I think back to Professor Michelle Holling. I think about when I took a feminist rhetorical theory course from her. She’s one of the greatest professors ever. But she’s tough. She going to give you the grade that you deserve. (laughs) And a great professor. But then, I think learning about feminism and learning about the multi-layered areas in feminism and how ideas about feminism—I just didn’t. I looked at my relationship to who I was based on what feminism was talking about and really, I’m like, man. I don’t see myself in this space because a lot of what you’re preaching, some of the feminist ideals from the beginning, it has racism in it. Black women, it’s like we could promote March for Women’s Rights but I’m like, yeah. If you tell me white women got to vote—what was it? Like 54 years before Black women got the vote—there’s inequity there. And if you don’t—I forget—Elizabeth Cady Stanton and everybody on those beginnings, if you’re preaching and you’re sponsoring the beginnings of feminism and there’s racism, I can’t be a part of it. But when I got to learn more about different women in the Black rhetorical feminism and seeing pockets of where Black women have to face racism and sexism in society, I feel like it was very intercommunity focused. And I felt like I chose to look at it as something like—I don’t want to disregard any woman if they’re feeling oppressed or if they have real life things that they’re dealing with, whether it’s sexual assault, abuse, even inequities in pay. These are all bad things. But I think I love to bring it back to focus on where’s my relationship in it and how can I look at it to where I’m the most involved. And I think that brought it back to it looks at family. It looks at the women in your immediate circle. It can look at your relationship with women all over. But, instead of trying to put a mind frame on “Do you love it all?” No. (chuckles) When it comes to feminism, I don’t like all the history. And there are so many different types. I did enjoy researching all about the different variations of feminism. Man, when you dive into it, some are radicals. Some are not. Some are not inclusive. Some are really inclusive. So, I really like that, breaking those things down. And I think it really starts with self. It really starts with how you’re raised, and really looking at how can you impact the community and the area and the women that you’re ultimately in communication with every day? And if you start to see signs of “Hey, somebody’s disrespectful. Somebody did something, the wrong thing.” Or “How do I understand Title IX regulations?” If somebody comes to me and “This is what happened to me!” or “Somebody took advantage of me,” did I do my due diligence to understand, on this campus, do I know how to offer assistance? Do I know how to report, if I’m a mandated reporter? What can I do to make sure, ultimately, that any woman that’s around me, that I come in contact with even if I don’t know her for about an hour or something, if they come to me with needs or issues, even outside the lens of I could take from feminism, but just being a great person, or being a good person, and making sure you’re assisting, or you can. And I think—And stepping outside the box and saying “I’m a guy. I don’t do it. I’m a Black guy. That never happened with me with you.” Or “I don’t think that could happen because I didn’t see it like that.” Being able to take a step back and like “Man. I never thought of it like that.” Or “I didn’t know that that could be misconstrued.” Or “I didn’t know that was a thing.” Can I educate myself? Can I learn how to help? Can I be a better me for the women in my life or my friend, my colleagues? I think I try every day. I’m not going to come on here and say, “Louis was a feminist.” But I’m going to come on here and say through research, through history, through learning from great professors like Professor Holling, learning from classmates and women in my life, ultimately, that’s one of the things that I feel like that affected me to make sure like “Man. I need to know about how it’s affecting people, near and dear to me.” And even if they’re not near and dear to me, how can my relationship still be on a level playing field? And the last topic was Black Lives Matter. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: How has that affected me? And, for me, man. I think Black Lives Matter has affected me in a multitude of ways. And it has been funny, because I don’t really talk about Black Lives Matter. But one of the things I think about Black Lives Matter is like uh, it’s a basic statement. And it’s basic to me because I’m Black. I know I matter. You couldn’t tell me anything otherwise. It’s just common sense to me. And I see people shouting it. And I’m like “Oh, that’s great! Black lives do matter, yeah. I fuck with that.” I mean—my language— (seems embarrassed) I believe in that. (both laugh) But I think one of the things that it really affects me differently when I look at an organization like Black Lives Matter and I don’t know if I like all the tactics that I see from it. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And I say that because I’m not a fan of Black male death. And, you know, I’m a Black male in America. But when I see death, I almost wonder—You know, I think back to throughout history we have big signs of death. You have Emmett Till. You think about police brutality with Rodney King. I’m from Watts, so I think about that. I think back to even growing up in places where you’re like, man, a Black man could have been murdered or shot. Or you see it on the news, police brutality, this, that, and the third. And it’s, for me, I’m not taking away any good that they might be able to do. But, for me, one of the things that sucks is just seeing Black male death. And you can see it in recent actions like George Floyd. And there’s so many names, even to this day. It has probably been a lot of Black male and I don’t even want to negate Black female death, Black trans men and women death. But I’m just like man. So, imagine you’re living in a society where every time a Black male, female, any identity is killed, they get a segment on TV. You probably get to see the death, their struggle. There’s a lot of reposting, re-Tweets. Before, it used to be—Like I think something that happened, because I think there was something—I think it was in Missouri or, I forget. But it was a death of a Black man, but I think it was on the—something bad had happened with something else. But I think I even was at school at Cal State San Marcos, and I could see the university didn’t want to talk about that. But they chose to talk about another topic. So, sometimes you see businesses. But now, it’s the hot thing to do. Businesses will talk about the black death or say “We stand with you.” But I wonder, when it comes down to it, how much do you really stand with that group if it’s not representative of whether it’s in your hiring, whether it’s in your policies, whether anything. But I think it has become easier for people to say it without somebody else looking at them. And when I look at organizations like Black Lives Matter, I’m not too invested in them because I live—this is my daily life. This is what we live through. We live through relationships. We live through how people perceive us. We make our own understanding of the world. But I’m, personally, not a fan of Black death and the highlighting of Black death in any facet. And I don’t really know how, when it comes to all of that, you’ve got to think. A lot of this stuff happened when I was in school. But after I graduated, I also worked at Cal State San Marcos for the Emergency Management Department. And my department was actually conveniently located in the Police Department. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And that also was like another thing because it’s like you get to see the differences. I get to see officers, and I like officers in that capacity. But then, I get to also see officers and I’m like I don’t really know, don’t really have a relationship with you. I’m not saying I had a relationship with every single officer at Cal State, but I can also say that I’ve never had a relationship with every single officer in the world. But based on what’s going on in the United States, I could see like “Wow. It’s tragic out here.” So, for me, I think, yeah, just going back to it. Black Lives Matter is not something that, personally, I’m like running to the streets to protest for. I don’t. Because until some of the—I don’t know. I think it has to be a different way to protest for what you need without promoting that death factor. Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that because of Black Lives Matter, we’re witnessing so much death of Black men without seeing an increase in equity in other areas? Adamsel: Yeah. And I don’t even want to put that on Black Lives Matter. Ho: Okay. Adamsel: But this is an organization that they will do their work. But, ultimately, out of their work you see a lot of organizations making statements, pushing out this narrative because they think without making a statement back to Black people, it might be a hindrance to their business, their operations, their reputation. When you focus on people, business, operations, reputation, oh! Snap! There’s a financial impact. People might not want to shop here. Somebody might even think there might be a protest and then somebody might use a protest as an opportunity to loot this store. And it might not be a Black person. There might be anybody. But I think it’s in their best interest, it’s in the organization’s best interest, to focus on the Black population. And I don’t think it started with Black Lives Matter, showcasing that. But I think it has increased. I think people look at that organization as a beacon. And there is a ton of Black grassroots organizations that are out there trying to make change, trying to do different things. I won’t say I’m educated about all of the work that is taking place within Black Lives Matter and what is taking place in all those grassroots organizations. But me personally, talking about Black Lives Matter and how it has affected me, I’m like man. Any Black person, I think, when you look at Black death over and over, not even only Black people, you look at outside the community, you’re like, okay. How do people feel if they see somebody Black on the news die? Ultimately, their head is like “Oh, another one.” And go about their day. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: It has become so repetitive to the point where it’s just like you sort of become numb to it. And I never want to be numb to Black death. But, ultimately, with the push of social media, these graphic scenes, these things that—They need justice. It needs to be brought to light. But I’m like, man. It affects people. It affects me. And I just don’t want it to affect me to the point where I’m just numb, completely. (chuckles) Ho: Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, you’re seeing it too much and you’re afraid that you will start to become numb because it’s just everywhere now. Adamsel: And like you said, after a while—I don’t know how other Black people feel. I feel how I’m going to feel. But, after a while, you start looking and you start wondering, when will things change? Have they changed? If they’ll ever change? And right now, you can’t answer that. But have they changed from when your parents were going through it, or your family went through it to now? I can’t say they have. I can say, “Oh, it’s visualized a lot more.” So, at what point do you get away from visualization and you get towards action, you get towards new policies, you get towards actual protections for people who are people but they’re not being treated like such? And then, when they’re not being treated like people, why is that? I know it’s going to be a sound bite. I know it’s going to be popular. This is probably going to make news media, companies money. Because everybody’s infuriated. Everybody’s enraged. They’re the talk of the town. And I just wish Black death wasn’t the talk of the town. I wish it never had to get to that. Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. What else have we not covered that you would like to cover? Adamsel: Um. Ho: Anything? Adamsel: Let’s see. (appears to be reading something off-screen) External…Institutional… Ho: And did you think of any more people that you’d like to give a shout out about? Adamsel: I did not. Like I said, they’re probably going to have to come text me and talk to me, if I forgot. (both laugh) But no. I don’t know if I have anything more that’s major. I think I probably spoke more in-depth than I thought I ended up needing to. But it was good. For me, it was a good conversation. I didn’t know it was going to go down that path or even we were going to get in-depth in all those questions. But I do appreciate it. I mean I do like the level of support that the library is trying to do to bring these thoughts together, I guess, before we get too old, and we start forgetting. Ho: Yeah. Adamsel: Especially like the part we played in all of it. Ho: Mm-hmm. That is really important, for sure. Adamsel: Yeah. And when you all showcase this, especially with memory, is this something if a student, in 2059, they’ll be scrolling, they’ll be able to go “Oh, University Archives, Black Student Center origin,” or something like that? Ho: Yeah. Basically. I don’t know that it would just be a bunch of videos available to a random scroller. But, for future researchers who are interested in the university’s history or the Black student experience on our school or in general in America or California or, you know, student life identity-focused centers, things like that. It’ll definitely be available to researchers. Adamsel: I hope that they have a great experience learning more about that. I feel like sometimes, when you learn more about the Black students experience in California or probably in most schools that probably are not, even historically, Black universities, but when I think of a Black student’s relationship with higher education and with inequity in the world, and then you play that into the normal wealth gap with African Americans, Black people in America, with anybody else, it’s a crazy contrast between how many of us are going to universities is a crazy contrast with inequities. And you would think more people would be like “Oh, let’s do what we can to make that look like a better option.” And it doesn’t start at college. It starts with the K-12 system as well. So, it’s just like our relationship with the education system between what we know is designed to make people, ultimately, better off, there’s something that’s going on that makes us look like that institution is not for me. I don’t want to be there. And I’m just like, man. It sucks. But I can’t act like college is for everyone. I can’t act like it appeals to everyone. It appeals to all of us differently. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: I just wish there was more to offer everybody who chose to go that route because there is so few of us as is. Ho: Yeah. It would be great if every person in America saw college as an option. Even if they chose not to go— Adamsel: Mm-hmm. Ho: —if they at least knew that it was an option that was viable for them if they wanted to go. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: That would be ideal for sure. Adamsel: Exactly. And I think that’s very true. Ho: So, if there is nothing else, I will stop the recording. Is there anything you want to end with before I stop the recording? Adamsel: Uh, no. I mean, I think the biggest thing is when it comes to ending, I’m very happy with the growth that the Center, Cal State San Marcos, has afforded me in my growth. I went to the university at 19. So, they’re some of the best years of growing in who I was as a leader. I think I knew who I was as a leader when I came. But through a mentorship, through role models, through networking, I think I became an even better person than I ever hoped I’d be by the time I left. And really staying connected, being able to be aligned with Black leaders, leaders of all different identities—because I used to only think I could only learn from Black people—but college taught me I could almost learn from anyone who is willing to teach, who’s willing to give out that helping hand. And it was a lovely place for me to grow. And I’m happy with the growth that I’ve achieved there. And I’m ultimately happy with the students that I’ve been able to see grow there as well and graduate. And even people that—It might not have been somebody who had their hand out for me, who looked like me when I first got to the university. But I was able to step up and get help from a lot of different people. And so, when somebody else came behind me, I just wanted to make sure okay, we continue to build that bridge and we make sure that these new students have the opportunity that wasn’t afforded to me. And even looking back to friends, Tiffaney, Jamaéla, even friends I met along the way, everyone was sort of like that key network to help keep Black students afloat and, ultimately, stay engaged through university and break all the barriers that we even thought were there. So, thanks to San Marcos. Thanks to the University Library. I know you all still got the mural probably in there. Ho: Yeah. Hopefully it stays there! Yeah, it’s beautiful. Adamsel: Yeah. I know. It’s amazing. But thank you for even interviewing. Ho: All right. Thanks for being part of it, Louis. Adamsel: No problem. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.xml AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adamsel, Louis. Interview May 28th, 2021 Description An account of the resource In this interview, Louis Adamsel speaks on his time as an undergraduate student at California State University San Marcos, aspects of his life as a student leader, his experience as a Black student and, later, as a staff member. Adamsel discusses his advocacy for the creation of the Black Student Center and the purpose the BSC serves to students, including the necessity of having a variety of resources in order to retain underserved students. He also speaks on mentorships and partnerships, both within the Black community and across identities and spaces. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-08 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Staff California State University San Marcos -- Students Civil rights Student Success Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-05-28 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Louis Adamsel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Moreno Valley (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Watts (Los Angeles, Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Louis Adamsel Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright.</a> Activists and activism Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Aguilar OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Aguilar, John. Interview May 21, 2013 WAHA-02 00:27:16 HIST-01 CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories CSUSM This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. csusm Afghan War, 2001-2021 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Twentynine Palms (Calif.) ; Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (U.S.) ; Veterans--Health aspects--United States ; Veterans' spouses ; Veterans--United States John Aguilar AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/072f64d928766dbd5dfe4c28078244fe.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview introduction Oral history interview of John Aguilar, Jr., May 21, 2013. Aguilar begins the interview by listing his dates of service and his place of service, at Camp Pendleton, California, with the HQ Support Battalion. California State University San Marcos ; Digital History ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; HQ Support Battalion ; Afghan war, 2001-2021 0 79 Enlistment and training Aguilar discusses his motivations for enlistment and his experiences at basic training and at 29 Palms, California for follow-on training as a computer systems expert. basic training ; enlistment ; follow-on training ; 29 Palms (Calif.) 0 243 Death at 29 Palms ; Afghan War Aguilar recounts the death of a sergeant during his training at 29 Palms and how it impacted him. He also recounts around the same time the beginning of the Afghan War, and seeing the attitudes and perspectives of deployed and stateside Marines change as the war progressed. Aguilar also describes the effects on service members that he saw from their deployments, and how they changed upon returning to the United States. 29 Palms (Calif.) ; Afghan war, 2001-2021 ; post-traumatic stress 0 656 Laptops and contractors Aguilar describes his work as IT support, and stress-testing laptops for combat use. Aguilar recalls the military choosing to contract with a company that offered an inferior laptop system over one that he felt was a superior machine for combat use. military contractors ; IT support 0 788 Impacts of service on military members and military families Aguilar circles back to his experiences witnessing the effects of combat service on veterans and recounts a story of a neighbor who suffered a brain injury on active duty that led to divorce. head trauma ; post-traumatic stress ; Afghan war, 2001-2021 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 0 970 Military impact on Aguilar ; Public perception of military service Aguilar speaks to the impact his service had on him and the way it has improved his circumstances. He also speaks to public perceptions of veterans and the glorification of service in our society. 0 1165 Media manipulation, racism and prejudice Aguilar offers his perspective on lessons to take away from the Afghan and Iraq wars, including governmental and media manipulation. He also talks about anti-Arab racism and prejudice against veterans, and offers his thoughts on the human capacity for division. Afghan war, 2001-2021 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; racism ; prejudice 0 1561 Honorable discharge from the Marine Corps Aguilar briefly speaks to his honorable discharge and rank reduction, and misdemeanor conviction for false official statement. honorable discharge ; rank reduction 0 John Aguilar, Jr. is a Marine Corps veteran who served from 2001-2005. In his interview, Aguilar recounts his motivations for enlisting with the Marine Corps and his experiences at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, 29 Palms, California. Aguilar also offers his thoughts and experiences regarding the trauma and changes wrought by combat deployments on veterans and their families, his work in information technology in the Marine Corps, and his perspective on the Iraq and Afghan wars, media manipulation, anti-Arab racism and societal glorification of and prejudice towards veterans.&#13 ; &#13 ; This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:06.865 --> 00:01:19.000 My name is John Aguilar, Jr. I am a former Marine, once a Marine, always a Marine. Former active duty. I am here at ca--at Cal State San Marcos. And I'm doing--participating in this WAHA project. War At Home and Abroad. And I'm giving my experience for Digital History. Um, right now I'm looking at a written account that I made here, because I don't have any questions or prompts to work with. But I served from March of 2001 to April of 2005. I enlisted in the Bronx, New York, and I served mostly here at Camp Pendleton. I was with the HQ Support Battalion of the parent unit for Camp Pendleton. So my unit wasn't deployable. When the war actually kicked off, we would just send someone out six months at a time and we would rotate that way. I never went out. My turn just never came up. 00:01:19.000 --> 00:04:03.000 Well, when I, uh, when I first enlisted, I was married with two children. I had two daughters and married my high school sweetheart. And we were just in a position where we didn't have any resources, aside from public assistance, and I didn't want to rely on that. I did face opposition. I had people telling me, you know, that I couldn't do anything else. That I had to work and work dead end--two dead end jobs, and get food stamps. And that was my option. I didn't like hearing that, and I felt that joining the military would be a good way to acquire skills and get the GI Bill so that I could actually do something with my life. So I chose the Marine Corps because I felt that it was the best of all the branches. They expect more of their members. And I didn't feel like I wanted to sell myself short. So I enlisted. I just went in one day, let everybody know. You know, I had church members telling me I was doing the wrong thing. I had my family, uh, was afraid that I wouldn't actually do it. I remember one day I came home, my wife told me that people were actually asking her if I had given up this "Marine thing." So when I heard that, if there were any doubts left in me, that drove them out. So I went through with it. I spent four months there. So I had, uh, some stress fractures in my legs. So I had to spend a month recuperating. Finished the third phase of training, which involved a lot of pain because I wasn't used to training after a month in rehab. I almost gave up just because it--it just hurt that much that I wanted to just throw the towel in, but I didn't. So anyway, I went on to become a co--a small computer systems expert. Um, I was in 29 Palms for about two or three months. And after a second trip over there for a couple months, tell you is one place I don't want to be. 29 Palms is not a nice place. The people there are not very friendly towards Marines. It's basically a desert and there's not much to look forward to there. I've heard of some people who like living there but my experience there has been horrible. 00:04:03.000 --> 00:05:05.000 I actually lost a sergeant there. I watched him, literally watched him die on his feet. He--and it traumatized me. It was the first time I saw anyone die. You know, coming from the South Bronx, it's like, I'd never witnessed that before. And, um, no, I didn't think he had passed. His body was moving. What I didn't realize was that it was just the air coming out of his body. It made it look like he was trying to talk but he was dead before he even hit the floor. And, a couple, you know, his best friend was there, another sergeant, and a staff sergeant. And they tried to revive him, but, you know, they couldn't. There was no possibility. I won't say his name, just in case his family ever sees this, I wouldn't want to bring it back to their memory. 00:05:05.000 --> 00:06:59.000 So, uh, it recently--I mean like relatively a short time after that, I--we were running when it happened. So after that, when people would say things like, you know, we're gonna run until we die, and things like that, I would freak out. I would just act like I felt like they really were gonna run until they died because that's what happened. The sergeant was running and he died. And after that, I remember one time we were watching videos--because the next day the sergeant had passed away--the very next day the war kicked off in Afghanistan. And, uh, people were sending YouTube videos of bodies, like people getting shot. And this one Arabic guy had gotten shot in this one video, and the air was coming out of his body. He was just like that sergeant, just, it looked like he's alive, but he's not. It's just the air coming out. And one of the marines with me making com--was still making comments. "Oh, yeah, look at him. He's still alive. He's still alive." You know, like if it was so cool that this guy got shot and was dying on camera, and like, I snapped at him and I'm like, "No, he's already dead! Obviously you've never seen a dead body." And, I let him know that the guy was already dead and it was the air coming out of his body. And just, I think it drove home for the people that were there that they didn't know what they were looking at. You know, it wasn't a movie, it wasn't fake. It was real. And none of us in that room had that experience of going to combat and of killing someone. 00:06:59.000 --> 00:08:38.534 One of the things that I did see recently was a presentation that Dr. (Ibrahim) Al-Marashi had on the War Against Terror. And he--one of the clips he shows was a video of a Marine being interviewed by a journalist saying that he and his friends shot someone and got a rush out of killing them, and that they wanted to do it again. And I noticed that there was no counterview presented. From some of my friends that went over there. I think that the initial attitude was one of conquest and excitement. And I think that changed though. I think it needs to be said that that changed. When people started dying, when Marines and other service members started seeing their friends blown up--for those of us who didn't deploy, news coming back of people that we worked with dying, IEDs exploding and killing people that we worked with. One--there's another sergeant--the one that I saw die? He didn't get to see his, I believe it was his daughter. He was--they were expecting a daughter, so he didn't get to see her. I mean, he died in relatively peaceful terms, you know. But another sergeant that I worked with, he was hit by an IED and he was expecting a child as well. 00:08:38.534 --> 00:10:56.715 So things like that, that we have to deal with at home, knowing that--two months ago I was working with this person and whether or not I got along with him is irrelevant. Because now he's dead. You know, whatever I felt about him doesn't matter. He has a wife that was waiting for him. He has a child that was waiting for him. People that did know him and love him were waiting for him to come back. And that would never happen, you know? So I think it needs to be said that while initially people were inappropriately excited to go to war, the reality of it eventually sank in. And that changed. The attitude totally changed. I'm sure there are those people who I were ignorant and felt like it would be exciting to go, you know, now ten years later. But the people that actually went through it, they were changed. They would, they came back differently. They, a lot of them couldn't walk by buildings. They walk around staring at windows because they're so used to having to watch out with snipers. I remember my car, the trunk, if I remotely open my trunk, a Marine happens to be walking by--you know, I'm approaching my car, I open my trunk, and they're jumping because they think something's about to happen. They're expecting an explosion or something. And I remember the first few times that I wasn't expecting that. And it was totally innocent. And I saw the reactions on their faces. So it made me realize that it had changed. The way people talked about it after a couple of years, it just, it was not that exciting, pumped up, I'm gonna go out and kill people, kind of thing. So, I just want that to be made clear, that with experience that attitude for the most part, changes. I'm sure there are exceptions. 00:10:56.715 --> 00:13:08.774 To talk about my job in the Marine Corps as a computer expert, I basically was the IT guy. Um, I had the opportunity to test one of the laptop suites that was sent out to the desert. These laptops were made, uh, just like typical laptops. I think they were just little heavier. And, it was competing with another system that would've definitely been a much better computer system for a combat zone. And I don't know who the companies that were involved, but I guess the laptop system had been purchased even though the other system was a lot better, and was suited for a combat zone. You were able to switch out parts very easily. And I really don't know why the military decided to go with that laptop system. We had to--a friend, me and another Marine--we had to work on it and debug it, come up with ways to solve the problems that were coming up in the software. We probably spent a, a week doing that. And the whole time we're sitting there just asking ourselves why would the Marine Corps want to give Marines this system? It was just full of problems. So, that's just a commentary on how we're not sending our service members out there with the best that's available. I know that whole, um, there was that whole argument going on about armor, and I can tell you firsthand, the software they were supposed to use was not the best that was available, for better or for worse. Um, I think that politics were involved and contractors were just out there to make money. I don't think they really cared about providing the best for our people. 00:13:08.774 --> 00:15:40.225 Um, and I've heard a lot of talk about the way people in the Middle East were living. And I wasn't there myself so can't really say if our presence there really made a difference or not. Because I haven't seen it firsthand. So I just won't comment on that because I really--I really don't know anything that hasn't been said in the news. I have my own opinions. I think, uh, I think that while Saddam Hussein probably did need to get deposed, I don't know if our presence there for so long was really necessary. So I just want my--in my view, I think that we really need to just scale down our presence there. A lot of people have died. A lot of people coming back injured, you know, irrevocably changed for the rest of their lives. I had a neighbor who was, uh, who was a reservist in the army, and he was unemployed at the time. He and his wife had three children. And he gets called up to go to, I believe to Afghanistan, maybe Iraq. And when he comes back, he had a brain injury. And it was to the extent that he had a British accent, even though he was American. So he comes back with this accent. His wife said that he wasn't the same, excuse me, he wasn't the same person. His personality had changed. And I remember they were my upstairs neighbor. So when I moved out of that apartment that same night, she was arguing with her husband over the phone to the extent that someone had called the police. The police thought he was in there, that they were fighting. I had to let them know, no, that's not the case. They're arguing on the phone because their marriage had devolved to the point that she wanted a divorce. And that that happened maybe in about a three to four month period after him returning. So, you know, those are the kinds of things that the war is creating. 00:15:40.225 --> 00:16:10.000 You have people who are physically maimed and injured. Marriages are falling apart, people are dying. It just--I don't think that it should be happening. You know, I think we did what we needed to do, and the governments there need to take control of the situation. And that's really how I feel about it. 00:16:10.000 --> 00:17:37.025 As far as my service in the military, I'm very proud of what I accomplished, and I was able to turn my life around. Here I am working on my master's degree, and my children have someone to look up to. And before I enlisted, I just didn't have that. I didn't have the resources that I needed to really make something of myself. But I think that people need to keep in mind that earning the title of a Marine or becoming a Soldier or a sailor or an Airman, there's still, they are still people. And I think like this glorification, hero worship, I really think it needs to get toned down because a lot of the time people are enlisting and they're not knowing what it is they're getting into, you know? You're not treated the same as most people are, in the military, and you are held to higher standards. And sometimes I think that the standards you're being held to can be unreasonable. And I think it causes people to stress out. It causes people to change and not always for the better. 00:17:37.025 --> 00:19:25.815 I think that when the public engages service members, they need to do it from a perspective of how this is a person who is maybe achieving things, and accomplishing things, and simply just getting things done because they have to, It is not that somebody goes into the service knowing what's expected of them. Because you think you know, but you don't. You don't know until you get there. I don't--I think that military members need to also keep in mind that they volunteered for service. And when they expect other people to fawn over them and tend to their every need, it's not a reasonable expectation. And I see that a lot. And I remember when I was there mentally, where I thought that I should be held in a higher regard because of my service. And the fact of the matter is: I volunteered. You know, I wasn't forced to do it. I didn't have to. It wasn't compulsory service where it's so terrible that I made it through against my will. It's not how it, how it is, you know? There were people who did more than what I did. There were people who did less than what I did. And that's in any endeavor that we take upon ourselves. I think, so I guess what I'm trying to say is I think we all need to be grounded in reality. 00:19:25.815 --> 00:21:15.365 I think that when people think about this war in the future, when we look back, I think we really need to question what's being fed to us. The government really took control of the media and censored what was sent back. Now we know we were lied to about multiple issues. And I think that's part of the problem, is that people who initially went over there thought that they were doing something really great and honorable, and that may not be the case. We can talk about spreading democracy what we want, but the people there may not have wanted that. If anything we could've tried politically to change the government. And without getting into a convoluted discussion, you know, it's just too complex to boil down to a few words, but I think we just really need to question our government's motives and not make assumptions. And especially the way people talk about Arab Americans or Arabs in general. This is supposed to be the melting pot. And our military is made up of many ethnicities and religions, and people just throw around these slurs and degrade other people like it's fine. Like it's acceptable. And that shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. Racism and prejudice should not be viewed in that light. 00:21:15.365 --> 00:22:33.000 I think as a Marine, I think that I have a duty to speak out against that kind of thing. I think that while I will defend my fellow servicemen from people who make those assumptions and try to degrade them, at the same time, I'm having to defend people who are being subjected to that by the military. Like when a service member makes comments about Arabs, I will defend the Arab community because it's the right thing to do. Not every single person from the Middle East, whether they live there or descended from their, has to anything to do with terrorism. And at the same time, you know, not every service member is a gung-ho, trigger-happy racist. Both sides of the equation are complex, and individuals all have their own views. And I think we need to remember that. I think ultimately what I, what my message would be is that we all need to remember that we're all people. 00:22:33.000 --> 00:23:46.365 The Marine Corps, the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Arabs in the countries that we have invaded, that we have conducted airstrikes, like in Libya, the governments, the--even the rebels, they're all people. You know, some people who are fighting, like American contractors down there, uh, rebels even, like I heard one story about a rebel who was captured and he said the only reason he was fighting was for a paycheck. It's like, they're not even ideologically inclined. They're just there to make a paycheck to feed their families. And a lot of our military members join to get a paycheck. So it goes beyond politics. It goes beyond politics. And I just really feel like we need to keep that in perspective. 00:23:46.365 --> 00:24:24.000 Um, so I hope I didn't sound too high-handed and I hope I didn't come across like I'm rambling. But we just need to keep in mind that people are people and wars are politics. Politicians decide that we go to war, not generals. And the people on the ground are not always there because they want to be there. 00:24:24.000 --> 00:26:01.233 And the military changed my life for the better, and not everyone is that lucky. And I met some great people who we will have lifelong friendships. And I met people who I don't ever want to hear from again, you know, and that's just keeping with my point that not everyone can be put into one framework. Ultimately we're all people, we're all individuals, we're all a composite of our experiences and education and instruction, you know? So I would just like for our service members who might be watching this, people who are thinking of joining, to keep in mind that the people that you might be down range from shooting at, getting shot at by--and I'm not saying don't defend yourself--I'm just saying they may not believe what you're being told that they believe. And you probably don't believe what they are being told you believe. I think we just need to keep that in perspective. There are many layers to any situation and war is not exempt from that. So I guess that's all I really have to say. Thanks. (video cuts and is turned back on) 00:26:01.233 --> 00:27:17.233 Okay. I'm just gonna give my rank here. I was discharged in April of 2005 as a private. I got an honorable discharge, even though my rank was reduced, I had promoted up to Lance Corporal and a legal investigation ensued, which took two years, so I couldn't get promoted to corporal. And went to the hearing and it lasted a few days, maybe a week. And the conviction came back with a misdemeanor, false official statement. Now I didn't make a written statement and I didn't make a verbal statement. The--that's just what came out of the hearing after all the evidence was heard. So even though I was reduced in rank, I still got my honorable discharge. And I discharged maybe a week after the--I served a sentence of, I believe, fifteen days or twenty days. And I discharged a week after that. So I'm Private John Aguilar, Jr. Thanks. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.xml AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/4/resources/55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aguilar, John. Interview May 21, 2013 Description An account of the resource John Aguilar, Jr. is a Marine Corps veteran who served from 2001-2005. In his interview, Aguilar recounts his motivations for enlisting with the Marine Corps and his experiences at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, 29 Palms, California. Aguilar also offers his thoughts and experiences regarding the trauma and changes wrought by combat deployments on veterans and their families, his work in information technology in the Marine Corps, and his perspective on the Iraq and Afghan wars, media manipulation, anti-Arab racism and societal glorification of and prejudice towards veterans. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-02 Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001-2021 Iraq War, 2003-2011 Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (U.S.) United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps -- Recruiting and enlistment Veterans -- Health aspects -- United States Veterans -- United States Veterans' spouses Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Aguilar, Jr. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> CSUSM Veterans Voices Latine experience Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tomme Arthur OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Arthur, Tomme. Interview August 8, 2019 SC027-044 01:09:58 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm Brewers -- California -- San Diego County. Brewing industry -- California -- History. Lost Abbey Brewing (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County. Tomme Arthur Judith Downie ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08.m4a 1:|17(6)|44(4)|71(12)|94(8)|117(10)|139(3)|172(14)|214(13)|227(11)|264(9)|284(2)|311(5)|345(12)|373(2)|393(14)|427(5)|450(16)|474(12)|493(6)|523(7)|562(8)|583(6)|616(10)|634(16)|649(12)|670(14)|698(10)|717(5)|743(3)|760(6)|779(6)|802(9)|824(12)|843(10)|860(6)|877(13)|894(13)|911(17)|930(11)|953(3)|976(2)|991(14)|1021(12)|1039(7)|1062(14)|1098(8)|1146(15)|1159(9)|1189(15)|1231(3)|1246(10)|1270(9)|1300(3)|1321(3)|1342(16)|1363(2)|1384(4)|1401(4)|1421(14)|1439(11)|1459(4)|1475(10)|1499(6)|1521(2)|1535(4)|1559(5)|1590(9)|1610(2)|1627(6)|1643(11) Undefined 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/77ba455fa57d5b0079ba70f5e57ea2db.m4a Other audio English oral history Tomme Arthur has been involved in several San Diego breweries, most notably as founder and managing owner of Lost Abbey Brewing located in San Marcos, CA. His first professional brewing position was at the short-lived Cervecería La Cruda in San Diego, California. Arthur moved to Pizza Port Brewing in Solana Beach, California as an assistant brewer. After becoming Director of Brewing Operations for the increasing number of locations, he led the chain in garnering numerous beer awards. Arthur opened Lost Abbey Brewing in 2006 to focus on his interest in Belgian-style beers. In late 2023, Arthur separated Lost Abbey from Port Brewing operations in a ‘right-sizing’ plan in response to beer industry trends. Port Brewing retained the Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles, and Kharisma brands in their portfolio and took over the San Marcos production space and closed the tasting room. Lost Abbey entered an alternating proprietorship agreement with Mother Earth Brewing to share their production space in nearby Vista, CA. &#13 ; &#13 ; In his 2019 interview, Arthur discusses his introduction to craft beer and home brewing ; entry into the profession and work at various breweries beginning in the 1990s ; founding Lost Abbey Brewing and other brewery ventures ; mentoring individuals in the industry ; and awards. &#13 ; Judith Downie: So today is August 8th, 2019 and this is Judith Downie, the Curator of the CSUSM Brewchive® with Tomme Arthur, founder and co-owner of Lost Abbey, the Hop Concept, Port Brewing, and myriad other projects that we're going to be asking about. So tell me, the purpose of this is to kind of record in one place things I've seen in a lot of places. You know, you've been very generous with your time with people mentoring and interviewing. And so this is for the Brewchive®, basically an overall history of your life experiences as a brewer, thoughts, things like that. So, we do have a list of questions here, which again I'll read them off, I may reword them a little bit and you are open to responding to them however you need. And I hope we have plenty of time that you've talked about things that maybe nobody's ever asked you. Tomme Arthur: That would be fun. JD: Yeah. So record these things for posterity. So, let's start with your background. To be clear, from what I've seen, you started home brewing in Arizona while you were in college and how did that start? TA: So I am a native San Diegan. My family's three to four generations on both sides. Went to Saint Augustine High School. When I was in high school, I decided that I really liked the English language and I wanted to study English and felt that teaching was a path that I would probably take. JD: Okay. TA: And so I fell in love with Flagstaff as a campus and community. And the school at Northern Arizona University had a really good education teaching program. So that's how I ended up in Flagstaff. When I got to school, I met a family, last name is Gardner and, and their son, Tom. And I became very close and the Gardner family really was into beer and they were sort of my mentors to beer. And they said, you know, we're going to teach you about better beer. And of course, I was only 18 at the time, but you know, I wasn't gonna say no. And they kind of pushed me in this direction of here's what better beer looks like, tastes like. American beer, imported beer, Canadian, very English, you know, all the, all the different countries where a great beer would have come from. A lot of it at that time was imported of course. JD: Right. Because really, you know, we're talking what the... TA: 1991 and 95 was when I was in school. JD: Okay. So there really wasn't much of a craft beer scene in Arizona I don't think. TA: There were very few craft breweries in Arizona. In fact, there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff at the time. We ended up having three open up in my last year of school. But there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff and at that time. There was likely to be 10 or 15 probably in the entire state. But we've got a lot of regional beers. There was a lot of beer from Oregon, Washington, Northern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado beer. So there was some American craft. But mostly from very older players, you know, Sierra Nevada Anchor, Deschutes (Brewery), big, bigger breweries. JD: And being that the craft beer scene in San Diego was still pretty young in that time period. Do you remember seeing anything from San Diego? TA: No. In fact we, we actually talk about this a lot, that prior to Stone Brewing coming into San Diego, nobody actually sent beer outside of San Diego. Karl Strauss (Brewing) had beer in San Diego at the time and packaged in bottles. But they, I don't believe much of their beer, if any, was leaving the San Diego area. So my understanding is that it really wasn't until Stone opened their doors and shipped beer to Arizona, likely maybe Nevada, you need to ask them, where they crossed the state line and perhaps were one of the original new craft breweries to actually make beer to leave San Diego. JD: Which is really interesting because I have in my pre-Prohibition research on San Diego craft brewing found Mission Brewing. They were brewing beer to supplement San Diego Consolidated Brewing, which is San Diego Brewing Company (today). They were San Diego Consolidated Brewing for a while and Arizona passed Prohibition in 1914, five years before National Prohibition and halted any shipment of even Hopski, which was a near beer Mission was brewing, into the state. They weren't even allowing that. And there was a big lawsuit and Mission Brewing lost and that was the contributing factor to the closure of Mission through that. TA: They actually lost out on a nonalcoholic or near beer. JD: Yeah. Hopski, and they didn't continue to brew that because J. H. Zitt, who was the president, the current owner of San Diego Consolidated Brewing had said ‘I will never brew anything but real beer.’ So he's the one who decided to close Mission. Because he actually owned it at the time because his father-in- law and brother-in-law, who had founded Mission, had walked away. TA: Yeah, the old San Diego stuff is really interesting. JD: Yeah, and it's a, it's an interesting kind of parallel between you being in Arizona and starting your interest in beer there and then coming back to San Diego. But I've also seen that you've noted that your favorite beers are Belgian style. What? TA: I just find them to be very unique and I think that there's, there's a pretty, I guess when I first got started in brewing in my sort of craft foundation, they were the most unique things out there. And that, that today is not necessarily the case. There's so many new producers and people that have really taken the boundaries and, and stretched them and moved them in directions. I think ostensibly under a Belgian influence or sort of what amounts to be a Belgian artistry, but there's a lot more to it these days. And I just think that if you, if you become imaginative about beer, you have to look at what the Belgians did or were doing at that time. Technique wise, yeast wise flavors, just process things. Very unconventional via what, what would amount to be a very conventional sort of brewing, you know, take four malts or take four ingredients. You can, you used a lot of water and hops and that's beer. And then you look at what they do. And it's completely different. JD: So you think the Belgians weren't constrained by the purity law that the Germans had and that's part of what led to their inventiveness? TA: Yeah, I just feel like they as a group embraced different methodologies and, and that sometimes weren't easy. And those methods at least preserved flavors that couldn't be found in beer, again, conventional beer. JD: Okay. Very interesting. So, onto your actual brewing experiences. You started home brewing? I read it was a homebrew kit... TA: So the Gardner’s bought me a home brew kit early for my graduation. So, I was gifted it in January of 1995 and that's when we started homebrewing. JD: Okay. And you didn't like the first beer you brewed? TA: The first beer we brewed, it was a black style, you know, sort of a dry Irish Guinness-style stout, but it came out very thin and didn't taste like Guinness or anything. So it wasn't, it was not a good beer. But you know, I think the expectations were high and probably should have set the bar a little lower. JD: Was this extract or all grain? TA: It was extract for sure. JD: Yeah. Because of course supplies even in the 90s, were still kind of hard to come by. TA: Yeah, we were pretty lucky there was a homebrewer outpost in Flagstaff, so there was a store that sold ingredients that we could've, we could've started in an all-grain basis. But I was living in a house with four people and it just wasn't really, I didn't have the resources to go build a full all grain brewing system, with the plastic fermenters and you know, boiling on the stove top kind of stuff was definitely where it was at. JD: Yeah, you got to start somewhere. So, then you came back to San Diego. Was that, what was the reason for coming leaving Arizona? TA: So I graduated in June or May of 1995. JD: So was this your bachelor's or your teaching credential? TA: This was my bachelors of arts in just English. And at that point I didn't really want to stay in Flagstaff and I wasn't gonna attend grad school there. So, I moved back home and so I left. And when I got home I kind of kicked around a little bit trying to figure out what I was going to do and really didn't have a plan necessarily I was able to go back and live with my parents. And you know, the only requirement was that I find a job. So, I found a job and that's kinda how I got in the downtown life. My dad had a printing business when I was growing up, so I was very, very well trained and I worked in the campus print shop when I was in school. So, I applied for a printing job in a downtown San Diego business and I was commuting, taking the trolley from La Mesa down into downtown San Diego every day. And I happened to be reading want ads, just, it was all that was left in the newspaper at that point. And stumbled upon a brew pub opening that had an ad in the paper for cooks, dishers, all that stuff in it said assistant brewer and I circled it. And I walked over the next day at lunch and applied for a job. And that was actually Cervecería La Cruda. JD: Right, with Troy Hojel? So, you actually opened Cervecería La Cruda in September of ‘96? TA: No, they, they would have opened, I think it would've been March of 96 ‘cause we ended up, we attended the great American beer festival in September, October of 96 and then it closed. It was less than a full year. I think I was hired in April, May-ish. and then I wasn't there even for a full year. JD: Yeah. I have, I have March ‘97 is when it closed. TA: So I think it probably was mid April-ish I would've been hired in. We didn't even make it a full year. JD: Yeah. This is the kind of thing I like because I have a very large Excel spreadsheet of every brewery from 1868 which was Chollas Valley Brewery through today. Whether they opened or closed, it never made it, pulled the license, whatever... TA: So, how many different breweries have attempted to open? Are we in the three hundreds or? JD: Well, my Excel spreadsheet also includes all the individual tasting rooms because generally they pull a separate ABC license. I'm up over 550 getting close to 600 I think, but I could certainly get back to you with how many tried and never even actually opened. I think there's a real object lesson there. TA: I think the most interesting thing is that we operate that there's 160 or whatever right now that are active, but it's really interesting to know kind of how many have kind of opened and closed and opened and closed and where you know, you can say, okay, since prohibition we've had 208 that have tried or participated in this, in this scene. JD: Yeah, because I break the whole history into three parts. There was a pre-Prohibition 1868 to 1919, 1919/1920 then 1933 to 1953 because Aztec, which had sold to Altes Brewing, closed and they were the last brewery operating post-Prohibition and then we didn't pick up again until the (19)80s so I can extract that information and get it to you because those numbers are always very powerful. TA: Yeah. I just feel like it'd be interesting to say since Prohibition, there's been 208 licenses that were issued or over, you know-- JD: And then there were others that announced a name or announced that they were going to open and never even got around to pulling a license. You know, so I have, I have every single possible name of any business that ever said ‘we are going to be a brewery or a brew pub, or...’ TA: No one ever drops on in front of you and you say, haven't heard of it. JD: Well actually not too long ago, I ran across one called the Royal Duffer. And that evidently they were contract brewing. They were in Carlsbad and they were like four golf buddies. And so they had beer for, again, I think it was less than a year. And I haven't been able to find out too much information from them, but I'm very alert to, ‘Oh, I don't think I've ever heard of that name before’ so this is the first one I've not heard of in a long time. So I think I'm pretty comprehensive. But yeah. Yeah, it's been interesting and a lot of work. But going back to Troy, is Troy still around? TA: He is in somewhere in Colorado outside of Denver. In fact, I just talked to him the other day. He texted me, I think his cousin opened a brewery in Texas and he had a question or two. TA: So yeah. He's in Colorado and doing the software. JD: Okay. So he's no longer in the brewing business. TA: No, actually he left the brewery business and ended up doing software in Northern California for a bit, I think, and then moved off to Colorado. JD: Well, it's gotta be sad to watch your dream die especially so quickly. TA: You know, it was a pretty aggressive life lesson, you know? It taught me a lot in the short time that we were into it. I still think that Troy is one of the best brewers I've ever met. And it would've been a really cool thing to see it succeed at, but certainly would've put me on a different life path, I think if it had. So I don't, I don't try not to, you know, revisionist history, that part of it. But the beers that he made and he was a very technical brewer, I think, I think it would've been, it would've added to the scene even more. JD: Yeah. What actually happened? Was it just lack of sales? TA: I think more than anything it was a bad, is a bad business model. I don't know if you know the story of Baja Brewing Company. JD: I'm familiar with the name, but not really the story. TA: So Baja Brewing Company opened up and they claimed to be the very first Mexican-themed brewpub in the United States. Now it was their claim to fame. But what happened is that the partners at Baja Brewing and the partners at La Cruda actually had a schism and they split. They were going to open the Baja Brewing Company together or something along those lines and they had a falling out and the partnership dissolved. And so these guys opened Baja Brewing Company and less than three or four months later Cervecería La Cruda opened up three blocks away. So the very first Mexican theme brewpub in this country opened up and three blocks later and three months and three blocks over the second one opened. So, very underfunded from the get-go. Very, it was a 13,000 square foot building at Forth and Island, you know, big, big building. Too much of it to just for the time I, I'd be nervous opening a 13,000 square foot building brewpub today. And you know, back when the Gaslamp was kind of still new and trendy and hot, I don't know what the rent was, but just overall a bad, a bad vision I think for what was going on. JD: Ahead of its time. Really. TA: Yeah. And the thing that's kind of crazy is that Cervecería La Cruda to them is a hangover brewery. So when you say ‘tengo la cruda’, that means I have the crud, I'm not feeling well. That's not a real great way to tell people you want to come here and drink. They opened up with a menu that they had sourced from the family that owned El Callejon in Encinitas. So, they had this really great, I would say deep, deep Mexican Sonoran source, you know, moles (sauces) and things. But that wasn't on anyone's radar with respect to craft brew at the time. So, good people, great, great opportunity. But not even something, that I think today, even if you attempted to tackle it, would probably work really well. JD: So as you say, a real experience. TA: Yeah, a lot I learned from, you look around and you see simplicity sometimes wins. JD: Or slow growth. Planned slower. TA: Or have more money than you think. Yeah. JD: Somebody said to me one time something like, you need five times more than you think you do. And I would, I think that's true with any business really. But the expense of equipment and materials and everything and you just can't do it all yourself. TA: No. You gotta be able to weather a lot of storms. JD: And you know, with this, I know in September of 2016 I went to the craft beer conference up in Sacramento and I saw you speak there and you at that time, this is three years ago now, said that San Diego was already over-saturated, and you would not open up a brewery at this point in San Diego. And how many breweries have we had open up? TA: Continues to be a head-scratching thing. Yeah. Well, we joke, I mean, we're here in San Marcos now. I've got three breweries within a one-mile stretch. Right. So yeah, that's just the way it is. Yeah. JD: But you're each different. Accommodating everybody at some point. But so when La Cruda closed, you moved to White Labs for just a couple of months in yeast sales. Was that based because you knew about yeast? TA: So White Labs had just kinda gotten their feet wet. So I remember the very first day when I was at La Cruda, one of the very first days I was at La Cruda. Chris White (founder of White Labs) walked in on a sales call. And so we were chatting and talking and at some point, and this is a part of my history that I don't remember all of that clearly, but I ended up moving in with them. I mean I was a roommate and I think there was a crossover point where I was working at La Cruda, but I already moved into their house. Cause he and Lisa had an empty room. I needed a place to stay. And then when La Cruda was on its way to be closing it became kind of obvious that I could help them in their infancy of their company with some just R and D and just different trialing and things like that. TA: You know, I had met a lot of brewers in Arizona at that time. So Chris said, well, why don't you come help me just kind of knock down some doors and you know, we just need somebody that can walk in and kind of talk about this in a very brewer friendly kind of way. So my goal was I was kind of like an ambassador really. You know, I didn't really do a lot of pure sales but my job was to talk about it and explain how my experience with different yeasts and temperatures and things like that. So it was kind of just yeah, I think it was more of a product, product knowledge and ambassador at that point. JD: Was there any conversation at that time about opening up a tasting room for yeast labs? TA: No. No. I mean, maybe Chris had it, but it you know, that was a pretty, it was a long time ago and there wasn't really a sense of yeast as a business outside of the yeast business. I don't think there was sort of that auxiliary layer to it. I'm sure Chris would have liked to have had a bunch of beers on tap, but I, I would imagine if he had had that thought back then that they would have probably just wanted 10 beers on tap for their customers to come sample them, but not necessarily not, not really treat it as an educational function for the consumer as much as an educational experience for a brewer who maybe hadn't worked a certain use and things like that. I mean there's just an enormous amount of yeasts that have been banked since we started. Since I got my first job in 1996 there's been an enormous amount of new yeast that had been added. So, they need an avenue to show people what those yeasts do. JD: And back then too, you probably had a lot of brewers, even professional brewers, would be how I see it. That didn't really understand a lot about the hops that were available. The yeast that was available, you know, cause a lot of them had, were coming out of the homebrew experience and you know, all of a sudden here's more stuff you need to know. TA: If you go back and look at it ‘95, ‘96 to, so that time, I mean we're talking about a dial up modem, you know, we're talking about low internet speed, we're talking about not... JD: A lot of people, not even having computers or knowing how to use it. TA: Not even a lot of Information online. Frankly. I mean you couldn't, you could not do all the kind of information that's out there today. And, and past that, a lot of the information that did exist in book format was highly technical through the ASBC (American Society of Brewing Chemists) and the big brewers. And then what was available that had been written about the sort of homebrew level and medium brewery. There wasn't a lot of medium brewery stuff in there, so you were getting a lot of books on how to brew ales, but they had this really big English, you know, sort of basis to them. Cask condition, real ale ingredients weren't American in their basis. So there was no ability to look up and say, Oh, how do I use this German hefeweizen yeast? You know, how do I, how much do I pitch it, what temperature, how does it behave? And none of that information existed. JD: So a lot of technical stuff. TA: Yeah. even just simplistic technical. What's the right temperature? JD: And around here San Diego was still something of a Coors town that's San Diego was test market for a couple of different, for Coors Light and for Herman Joseph's 1868 and you know, so really do you have much of a market for... TA: In fact, we joked about it here. This was the best, I think this was the best-selling Coors light town when I took in, when I got into brewing, this was the number one Coors Light in the country. JD: Yes, it was. TA: Well that explains to you, you know, where we're, where we were and where we came from. And on top of that you had all the import beers too, right? You still had Coronas and Pacifico and the Modelos in the world doing very well here at that time too. So yeah, it was a, it was a long ways to the top. JD: So you weren't at White Labs for very long before you were hired by Pizza Port. Pizza Port just had the one location then, right? TA: They had the one location in Solana Beach. Vincent (Marsaglia), Gina (Marsaglia) had been partners in the Carlsbad Public House with a guy named Brett. I think his last name was Stamp. JD: Tetley Ridden, I, it's a hyphenated name. (correct name is Redmayne-Titley) TA: Yeah. And then he became a, they, they had a falling out with Carlsbad Public House and they were in, they were in the process of converting the Public House, which is the Pizza Port in Carlsbad in the village into the Pizza Port at that time. So I was, I was brought into assist on Solana Beach because the head brewer was going to go have shoulder surgery and then they were supposed to move me up to Carlsbad to take over the production of the brewing and Carlsbad once, once he came back. So there was almost a second Pizza Port in line at that time. So they were, they were in the home stretch of the construction to convert it from the Public House to Pizza Port, which opened in July of 1997 so they were real close. And I always like to tell the story ‘cause I think it's very fascinating to me. I'd never stepped foot in Pizza Port before I got interviewed for the job. So I had no real perceived concept or notion of what exactly they did or what they didn't do. JD: Okay. And so you were an assistant brewer then? You weren't head brewer? TA: Yeah. Eddie Class, I think his last name was Classic. He was the head brewer at that time. And Vince was going to be the head brewer in Carlsbad when they opened. So yeah, Eddie was in charge of the brewery in Solana Beach and he was gonna go, I think I was going to have rotator cuff surgery and take about three months off. And then when he came back I was supposed to go take the job in Carlsbad. JD: Okay. but you, you obviously that didn't quite work out that way, but you were promoted to Director of Brewery Operations in June of 2005. TA: Yeah, that was a short stint ‘cause we were getting ready to open this place too. So yeah. JD: So you already knew you were going to be moving on? TA: We were having conversations at that point about how to get to here. We, I think in June it kind of was a collective. They terminated Kirk McHale, who was the brewer in Carlsbad in June of 2005 and then there was the San Clemente location, Carlsbad location, and Solana Beach. And I was asked to kind of tackle all three of them at the same time, make sure that they were more or less on the same page, collectively, kind of get them aligned. And then we also knew that we were having conversations about a new partnership and trying to build up the partnerships so that we could get this, this facility put into our orbit. JD: Okay. So that leads me into the founding Port Brewing in partnership with Vince and Gina. And you know, you have Port Brewing, you have Lost Abbey, you have the Hop Concept and I've also seen that you're involved in an Arizona brewery called Moto Sonora. So can you explain the structure of everything? TA: Yeah. When we started talking to Stone Brewing about buying this facility from them you know, my love of Belgian beers was pretty strong and I knew that we wanted to make some things out here that were very barrel aged, Belgian influenced and all that. And we had this, Vince had the idea for the brand called the Lost Abbey. So we were very, very keen on the fact that we knew that was going to happen. There were a lot of beers at Pizza Port that were being produced that needed to kind of stretch and grow and needed to get from get out from under just being a pub-based beer. And that allowed, you know, people who had been asking for more, you know, basically Pizza Port beer. And that's where the Port Brewing came from. So the Port Brewing beers, many of them when we opened our doors here came from Solana Beach recipes that I had produced, Hop 15, Santa’s Little Helper, Shark Attack. We brought the Wipe Out recipe over from Carlsbad and those beers had a lot of legacy towards the pubs and, and kind of, you know, grew them out of that realm. But we knew that there'd be the Port brand’s very West coast centric, you know, kind of that Ballast Point, Coronado, Green Flash, Stone kind of mentality. You know, higher hopping rates, you know, sometimes imperial, things like that. We always knew that that wasn't really that wasn't going to be our principal focus in the sense that we were going to have the two brands, but we also knew that having the two brands side by side allowed us to walk in and have a wide range of beers without having everything be a Lost Abbey beer or Port Brewing beer. JD: Okay. And then the Hop Concept is a fairly recent addition to the portfolio. TA: So a few years ago I walked into a bar and all the beer names on the wall really just confused me. There were so many new beers and I had no idea what they tasted like. And I didn't want to be a bother to the bartenders and try to, you know, ask them this or that. And I'm not an Untappd person. I don't really use digital media to tell me what I should be drinking. So, it kinda came back to we wanted to create a line of beers that were very fresh and simplistic in their makeup. So, the Hop Concept beers, we had a line called the Hop Freshener series and they were basically we had ‘Dank and Sticky’ and ‘Citrus and Piney and ‘Lemon and Grassy’ and ‘Tropical and Juicy’. And it was essentially taste and smell. And we, all we were trying to do was tell the consumer and the bartender, this is what you should expect the beer to taste like, or smell like. And it was a quick, straightforward deliverable and it was meant to be a, I use the word simple, but simple deliverable like you knew what you were getting. We were setting you up to understand how that beer should taste and behave. JD: Yeah, it does seem like naming beers because they do have to be registered names or whatever, becomes a bigger and bigger challenge. And in just looking at a name on the board, you frequently have no idea of what that beer really is. So, something like this where you're going back to the basics, this is what you're going to get. I think must be very attractive. TA: I thought so. I thought the cleanliness of it for us, which was just straightforward and nomenclature and deliverable, like this is this is what you can expect and... JD: Your label designs are very clean and very clear. Where Lost Abbey looks much more European, Medieval in a lot of ways. TA: And we went out and we went out and hired a firm for the first time to really, we told them this is what our vision is and this is why we're doing it this way, but we want you to make sure we produce this with a very crisp look to it. And they, they certainly executed that and I, and I think that's always been a strength of that brand. JD: Yeah. Let me ask you a little bit about the latest venture, Moto Sonora. I read that this was evidently your college roommate you are in partnerships with and his younger brother. And, of course, this is taking you back to Arizona. TA: It is. Tucson, not Flagstaff. I wish it was in Flagstaff, but I'm going to come to like Tucson cause it's closer. But yeah, my, it's kind of ironic because this was a random sort of thing back when, when I was in college with Jeff. Jeff really wasn't a big beer drinker but it turns out but his brother Jeremy really fell in love with craft beer and the two of them kind of decided that they have a high value for the city of Tucson. They loved that area. They've got deep roots in the community there. Their family, the DeConcini family's been a, been a big part of the Arizona scene and they just wanted to do this project. And I started talking to them as a consultant and just kind of saying, let me, let me hear what you're thinking. And then they said, well, maybe you could spend some more time on it. And I said, yeah, I've got the time to do that. TA: Let's, let's do this. So, I am coming in as one of the co-founders on that project. Port Brewing is not involved in the sense that we're not invested in it. JD: That was a question I had. TA: We're not, Port Brewing is not an investor in the company. Although I have permission with my partners to supply as many ingredients and things, you know, that we can, we can work to make sure that the beers there are at the highest, you know, sort of capacity. And if it means we're buying the hops and selling them hops and things like that, that's gonna happen. You know, I see it as potentially a training ground where if one of our brewers wants the position when we get going or they, you know, we want to move people out that way. But this is not anything more than a co-founding situation where I have the freedom to go tight, you know, take on other projects. I, I kind of liken it to chefs having multiple locations or bar owners having, you know, other projects and things. But I'm not moving to Tucson and I'm not going to be the head brewer there. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to establish what we're doing and push the company in the right direction and make sure that we become a really valuable part of that community. We've been definitely looking forward to the, just being involved in it and you know, a different beer scene at the same time. JD: Well, this kind of jumps over some of the questions I have because it leads into the amount of mentoring and work with newer brewers and the collaborations you do with the more established brewers. You are renowned in the industry for how people can come to you and pick your brain and you support and mentor in so many different ways. I see you as a one-person campaign to ensure craft beer success. And, and this is in comparison with efforts like Stone's True Craft where there were more financial assistance. Have you always been a remarkable mentor? It sounds kind of like, you know, you're, you're thinking to become a teacher. TA: Yeah. I think that's a big part of it, right? It's a, it's a sense of, you know, that shared piece. You know, I remember very, very early in my, in my Solana Beach days, I wanted to make a Saison-style beer and I needed to find somebody who could give me the answer for how much ginger I was supposed to put in the beer. Cause I wanted to make the beer with some ginger. And there weren't many places where I could turn to. And I picked up the phone one day and I called the owner of Left-Hand Brewing Company, his name was Dick Doore. And I said, Dick, you guys have this amazing Juju, ginger pale ale. I love it. Would you be willing to share that information with me? And he did. And he, you know, and we'd barely met. And it was one of those things that, okay, yeah, that's how the industry works. Right. And you know, this is something that I think Troy had put in my head back in the day was like, there are the right people to be talking to and then there's the wrong people. And the wrong people are the ones that don't freely exchange the information, or they don't, they don't try to push it uphill. And for the longest time we had so much work to do in this town to push the level uphill that we collectively had to talk about it. I mean, everybody I think that you would interview would have the similar sense of if we didn't all work together then we wouldn't have gotten to where we were. JD: Isn't that the principle behind the San Diego Brewers Guild? TA: Of course, you know, the very first Guild meeting was out at La Cruda. So yeah. Yes, for sure that the Guild, you know, I think we were the very first city in the country to have its own brewers guild. And that, that's kind of a, you know, a feather in the cap for what I think, you know, the old, the old guard or the people that really did, you know, hunker down back in the day was that there was a true sense that there was going to be something really good about the scene here. But we had to work really hard at it. So, I've always liked that conversational aspect of it. I believe that I can, I can ask the right questions with friends and people and, and if I can turn around and get that information back out, it makes sense. So yeah, why not? I mean, there's, there's very little, I guess I don't feel very competitive or threatened by it by that, you know, that dialogue or that sharing of information. JD: I think that's, I mean, I, I'm on certain, like the San Diego Plexus Facebook group and stuff, and your name comes up and everybody says, Tomme Arthur, he's the person to talk to. He is the god locally, you know, I mean, your name is always used in very positive way, which I think really speaks to the efforts that you have put into the community and supporting, especially newer brewers, but also working with other established brewers and not treating it as competition but treating it as we can all be better. TA: And I think the one thing that's kind of maddening these days, and this is, this is my personal soap box, is that there's a lot of people that are collaborating on things. And I'm, I'm very concerned about this new sense of collaborating because I don't know that it's doing much other than it's bringing people together. And then you say, well what did we change and what did we do? And I'm like, okay. But I think the collaborative narrative of old was we collaborated on something because it was going to be something demonstratively different than we could have done singularly. And I'm not sure that much of that's going on today. So, when we collaborate with an old guard or with someone new, we're, we're really trying to have a sense of purpose. And I hope that people continue to realize that just collaborating with someone for the sake of sales isn't always, I guess from where I come, from isn't always the best course of action. JD: Again, going to your mentoring, have you had the opportunity to open doors for specific groups? And I'm thinking women or minorities or people with disabilities, people, you know, because the standard concept of a brewer is a male, white guy, you know, I mean that just still is. It's not that way anymore. But have you had opportunities to work with or speak to groups to encourage them? TA: I was thinking about this the other day because you know, I look at our staff, it is generally mostly male. We have had a few female employees on the beer side in the past and they've been phenomenal employees. And I was thinking the other day that we haven't done enough in our world to cultivate that specifically. And I know the Brewers Association is pretty keen on promoting diversity and things these days. And I'm wondering as an educational mentor, et cetera, where I should be looking to do some of those things or how I get involved in that. You know, where, where can I be impactful in that, in that space. And I don't know if it's through the university or through, you know, there's a big Latino population up here in San Marcos and Vista. But clearly, you know, being white and being white isn't always the best thing. With respect to trying to, you know, we've got to find new, new people to energize and really enthuse about what we do. And preaching to the 40-year-old male white choir isn't, isn't the best place to live in. JD: Well, I don't know if you're aware of Border X (Brewing), which is of course down in Barrio Logan has, is sponsoring a women's beer club called Mujeres Brew Club. I'm sorry, I, my Spanish isn't that swell. And they invited me to be their first speaker and they're doing a meeting each month on a different aspect and at the end they are going to brew a beer at Border X. And the women that are in there, many of them don't know even beer styles. I mean, one woman evidently asked the question, what's an IPA? And so, you know, and it's, it's a safe space for women and it does have a large number of Latina women, which I think is phenomenal because maybe some of these will become brewers and there are women are working in the beer industry in San Diego who are also members. Some of them are speakers and some are just attending the meetings because they're always eager to learn more. So maybe reaching out to, or you know, helping sponsor a group like that or Pink Boots Society (international organization for women and non-binary people in the fermentation industry. The first chapter was founded in San Diego.) of course, you know, is always looking for speakers and educational opportunities and things. But you know, there's a growing presence, but it is hard to, when women are so scattered or you know, like you say it's underrepresented with the minorities or you know, and there are certain positions that probably someone with a physical disability couldn't perform in a brewhouse, what could they do? Can they be the quality control people, things like that. So, it seems like there are places that we need to increase. TA: Yeah. It's interesting because I was thinking about this again the other day. I was like, we just don't have that many women apply for jobs. It's, it's you know, I, you know, I have a, a fairly good amount of men working, you know males, working on the floor. But I can't remember the last time I saw an application come in for a brewing position from a woman. So somehow the outreach needs to get further than, you know, I'm talking entry-level packaging jobs, things like that. There's, there's clearly, you know, there's, it's not a bias in our world. They're just not coming and knocking down our door. So somehow we have to convince them that this isn't, this is a pretty good place where they could, you know, they can, they can find careers and homes. JD: Well, if you do want to advertise positions, I have a couple of resources. I can push things out to Pink Boots San Diego for one. And then there's another Facebook page of women interested in beer. Some are working in the industry ; some are maybe looking to get into the industry. And of course, maybe pushing the word out to the EngiBeering® program at Cal State San Marcos. ‘Cause there are, there's at least a couple of women enrolled in that program. But yeah, it's hard because there aren't many women available to bring in. But then, you know, we do have a, you know, a fairly strong Hispanic population in this area. So, you know, why can't we leverage that? And it's finding those points of contact. That's a, that's a continual problem that I have seen. Also, to kind of jump back, I mentioned Stone's True Craft effort, which, you know, obviously died. It was a great idea to help small, small breweries with financing to where they didn't have to sell themselves to big beer. What did you think of that idea when you thought, heard of it? TA: You know, I had a lot of friends that took meetings with them. I mean, at least on the surface I was told, you know, Hey, we've, we've gone and talked to them about it. I think the biggest challenge was, is that that was at a time when there was a lot of unrealistic expectations about valuations and what, what things were worth or how, how long term, you know, how companies would be out, people would work long term together. You know, it's an interesting model because this business is such a, almost a loner thing. Like most people open their own little brewery and then at some point you need more investment in that comes with a lot more triggers and kinds of parameters and stuff in some small breweries never outgrow the small, you know, model. They, I'm the single proprietor, not me. They are a single proprietor, ownership kind of environment and you know, they borrow money from the bank and that's what they get and that's what they want to be. You know, there's a very passionate pursuit for them. And then there's the big business side of it, which says if you're going to scale and grow and you know, buying equipment is not cheap and putting concrete in the ground and copper piping and just every single thing you could think of. JD: And the length time it takes to just deal with all the permitting within the city, within the state, with the ABC (California’s Alcoholic Beverage Control agency in charge of licensing alcohol production, distribution and sales.) TA: And the regulatory. Yeah. All of those pieces. So I applaud Greg for, and Steve, for putting the platform together. You know, the, I think the biggest hurdle for a lot of people is just how, how do you entrepreneurially sign up for something like that? Right? It's, it's, you know, it's a different, it's a different (unclear) in you. You're talking about an environment where you went from being in charge of your own facility to now having new investment that comes with different, again, different triggers and things. I think it's interesting cause nobody signed up to do it and I don't know if that was that the metrics didn't align or how that was. But I know a lot of people took meetings and so I guess the question is, is what, what was, what was unrealistic on both sides for, for that, how come it, how come they didn't get anybody to, to partner with? JD: Yeah. I'm, I don't know who took meetings, but it would be interesting to talk to them to ask them why they didn't pursue that, and did they find an alternative that worked better for them. So that's on my list of things to do. Since we've mentioned big beer, have you ever been approached by big beer with an offer to purchase you or to work with them in some sort of way? TA: No. In the 13 years that we've been open no one has put an offer sheet on the table and said, we want to buy you for XYZ dollars or otherwise. We have met with some family offices, venture people, people, you know, my thing is we'll take any meeting just to say hi. Mostly to learn about what people are looking for, what they're doing. But pretty emphatically we've never actually been offered, no one's ever actually offered to purchase us in, in a minority capacity and majority otherwise. So no. JD: Good. I won't ask you what your response would be, but do you think that maybe partly it's because, I don't want to say you do extreme beers, but you do less run-of-the-mill beers in many cases that might just be something that big beer would not find attractive. TA: If we live in a fringe world, we're, you know, we're sort of known as a super-premium producer and we have a lot of niches that we feel from barrels and sour. You know, they've, big breweries have a need in sometimes to do that, but they, they, I think they've found those elsewhere and they want scale and they want all kinds of things. You know, San Diego is an interesting model, right. We had Ballast Point sold, you know, Green Flash had sold and we've had a lot of big, bigger companies come through and, and, and have taken investments. And so I don't know if there was any real need beyond, I think big beer came and found what they needed from San Diego. I'd be surprised if, if there's any big beer-ness left in San Diego. I mean, I say that, and you know, we'll see. But you know, I, I don't, I don't really feel like that the big beer is kind of be knocking down the doors in San Diego anytime soon. JD: They got their toe in. TA: Potentially because of the desaturation and just some of the difficulties that they might experience. ah, it's a, it's a whole, it's a whole run of things and it really has to do with, you know, where can they, where can they scale and where can they find their return on their investment and things like that. JD: Yeah, no, that's what they're looking at is a bottom line. TA: It is 100% about how much can they make on what they're buying it. Yeah. JD: Because your beers are not run of the mill Coors-type beers, not to bash Coors, but just, you know, as an example, where did you get your early inspirations? I mean, you, you said you like the Belgians and you were exposed to a wide variety of European and, and what craft beer was made in the US. But things like oak aging and sour beers, were those things that you were exposed to early on or were those things that you found out later while you were experimenting? TA: Yeah, it was early. I remember, I remember my first Chimay Red. I remember my first Guinness and I vividly remember the very first Rodenbach I ever had. And I, you know, the Rodenbach I think hit me more than anything else in that really portend, you know, that really does explain why, you know, like, Oh my God, that's okay. I know there's weird beer out there, but this is way to the left, right? This thing is way, way downstream from anything I'd had at that point. You know, I was, when on the four years I was in college, I was sampling a lot of beers and then I continued to continue to buy beer. And, and it's just when you get one that's put in front of you and you say, wow, how did they do that? And that was kind of the, the aha that was the light bulb, I think was, was that first Rodenbach. That somebody who's living in a world where that, that's so to the extreme and delicious. But why can't, why can't I, why can't I think about beer like that? And that's, that definitely pushed me in that direction. JD: Well that's great to have such an open mind. Do you remember who, if anyone else was doing things like barrel aging and sour beers or anything when you started doing it? TA: Vinnie (Cilurzo, founded Blind Pig Brewing in Temecula, CA before moving to Northern California to found Russian River Brewing.) and I joke about this a lot cause Vinnie at Russian River and I are pretty good friends and a lot of it comes back to when we first picked up oak barrels and really got into that, you know, late 19, late 1990s, you know, the first batch of cuvée that we were making and they were making beer called Temptation. There was very little of that going on and I knew Belgian had (inaudible. in the market. But out West there weren't a lot of people making sour beer in barrels. And so we had to just kinda kick the can on how to do it. Talk collectively. Again, it got back to, we were not we did not, you know, you know, withhold the secrets. And we talked a lot about the what ifs and things and that I think was a big, big part of the success was just, okay, how are we going to do this in this environment? Because again, you couldn't open a book and read how to do it. Today you can open plenty of books. JD: Or just find it out there on the web. TA: I mean, you pick up the phone and call someone, but then back then it isn't, you know, how do you manage your barrel program or what do you, how do you do this? It was, well, I'm going to try, I'm going to try this. Okay. That sounds like that. That seems reasonable to me. JD: Oh, so you can't think of anybody specifically locally though? You, I mean, Vinnie, to me, is still local as they were nearby-- TA: For sure, it’s California. JD: but I'm thinking in San Diego. TA: You know, I don't know if we, I always say we, being Pizza Port. I don't know if we were the first ones to make intentionally sour beer in San Diego. I don't recall running into it anywhere at that point. But for the sake of clarity, I never say we were the first ones because I truly don't know. There was some oak aging going on the guys at Rock Bottom (Restaurant and Brewery) in La Jolla specifically ‘cause I got barrels from them. AleSmith (Brewing Company)I think was right about that same time, ‘97, ’98-ish where they were getting into having some bourbon barrel kind of things going on. JD: But that was Skip (Virgilio founded AleSmith Brewing and later sold to Peter and Vicky Zien.). TA: Skip doing that. There was not a lot of sour beer in California at that point. So, or even San Diego can that I can recall. JD: I’m glad sour beer’s around. Okay. You just mentioned cuvée. And I've seen it said that that is your favorite beer. TA: Perhaps. JD: Yeah. Perhaps. TA: It’s the only one that bears my name (Cuvée du Tomme). How's that? JD: That's true. That's true. On the other hand, is there a beer that you ever made that you didn't care for, but everybody else said, no, we've got to put this on tap. TA: Ooh, that's a damn good question. JD: Did they, did it actually sell well? TA: There is a running joke here at the brewery. We made a beer a few years ago called Spontaneous Cheer. And the Spontaneous Cheer was a peach sour and it was actually spontaneously fermented. So we, we've got some spontaneous fermentation barrels and things that we do from time to time and we have a large library of barrels. We have over a thousand oak barrels full of now and we made this batch of beer and it tasted pretty darn good. That being said, I struggled with it personally because it didn't really manifest our house culture. We have a very strong sour beer sense. Like there's a terroir in our world. You can taste the Lost Abbey beer and it's white grapey and it's stone peach fruit. And you can tell that there's something about the way that we blend in and package. And that beer had none of it, even though it was a peach beer. But that's because all of the cultures came from the spontaneous portion. And so, people were like, you have to release this beer. And I can't in good conscience release it because you could open it in a tasting room in Texas and you'd have no idea it came from us and what's the point of that? So that's probably the one in this environment that had garnered a lot of energy I would say, okay, that's not what I was, didn't hate the beer, just wasn't keen on it. Bearing the name Lost Abbey being sour and didn't, didn't exude us. JD: And so you have not brewed it again since. TA: No, we haven’t. Even though we likely could, and people would freak for it, but it doesn't, again, it gets really to the point of, you know, we're really trying to have that identity in a big sea of imitations. I would think that that was probably a one-and-done. I'd be surprised if it came back. JD: Okay, if I ever see an unopened bottle of it, I'll know that that's truly special. TA: So we never bottled it. That's the only bottle that I think, I mean it was, it was literally only one oak barrel, so 50 gallons. But I think we only bottled it. I had a friend who had a baby and there was a request, but I, there shouldn't, there shouldn't be any bottles of that out in the world. There are, they probably aren't real. JD: Yeah. Well, we'll know that they are shams. What was your very first award for brewing? TA: That's a good question. JD: You've had so many. TA: I know like, let's see. We had strong ale in 19... Well, okay. The very first award that I know for certain was the gold medal that I participated in at La Cruda. We won a gold medal (awarded at the Great American Beer Festival) for the Makanudo Porter, but that was not my beer and I was not the recipe generator. So I would say probably a beer that we brewed at Pizza Port and that was part of the Strong Ale Festival in ‘97 or ‘98. And then at that point we started entering the Real Ale Festival in Chicago or some California State Fair stuff. We did not win a GABF (Great American Beer Festival.) award until 1999, 2000. JD: Shame on them. TA: It took me a little while to figure out where our beers sort of fit in the competitive landscape. JD: The pantheon of beers. TA: So once I figured that part out, we got on a roll pretty, quickly. JD: That does seem to be a little bit of a challenge cause I'm a member of the Society of Barley Engineers when they talk about submitting for homebrew (competitions). Sometimes there are quite intense discussions about where a particular beer, that somebody’s having everybody sample, what category that fits into. And you do then deal with judges’ taste buds. Which, you know, it's a constantly moving landscape. TA: I’ve been a GABF judge since ‘99-ish. And that has afforded me an enormous amount of opportunities to watch the process, participate in it, and even potentially piss off brewers and people who maybe didn't, you know, like the way that it went. It's fascinating to watch the competition evolve at a table relative to the dialogue, the strength of the judges, the opinions of the judges. Even just the sheer age of the, the judging has come from, there were only this block of people that used to do it and now it's expanded and now the categories have morphed and they're different. And the, you know, we talk about it a lot because it's, it's interesting to see how difficult, first of all, there's so many more beers, but the sheer, the sheer perspective that people are operating under relative to, I've had these style beers or I've never been think about, okay, I'm supposed to judge a Kölsch-style beer, but I'm a judge and I've never been to Cologne and had the six beers from there that are the, that are the standards. Well, how do you judge that? Like that's, that's a, it's an interesting scenario because you're being asked to read this against what was written, how this is how a standard should taste. Yet. You've never been in situ and had that environmental condition. JD: Right, with that terroir and all everything else, all those factors that work into it. TA: 100 percent. I do agree with you that there's, one of the things about entering competitively is that there's so many different places beers can fit and sometimes it's really environmentally like time and place. Sometimes the beer exudes more oak and sometimes it doesn’t, and it wants to be in an oak category, but it can't cause it has brett (industry jargon for Brettanomyces, a fungi used to sour beer.) We did a sampling a couple months ago back in early July and I think we went through 20 different beers for GABF trying to get down to the five that we wanted to send. And in order to do that we had to kind of pick the beers. We'd, you know, we brought out all the beers that we thought were really well done and then we had to go say, well that would fit here, wouldn't fit here, but it probably fits best here, but we don't want to send that beer there because we already have another one that wants to go there. So, you don't wanna compete against yourself either? JD: Now are you limited to five beers for competition? TA: Of late? They've been in the four to five range. Okay. A few years ago, you could send up to eight and prior to that it was kind of unlimited. But when it went from eight to five it got a lot harder. JD: Yeah. But it just seems like, I mean you can see what thousands of entries that seems like and yeah-- TA: I think there's over 8,000 beers that'll be judged. But we always say this, it's like if, if back when we were going to sending eight beers, I don't know if we make eight world-class beers every fall. Right? So how many are really well done and how many of them are like, you know, that far up the channel. I think we make eight great beers but are they going to sit at the table and really, really compete. But I think when you have eight versus four, your odds are better. But perhaps being in categories that some, some years are strong, and some years are weak, is, is where it kind of comes from. JD: Yeah. But you're also trying to be selective. I'm sure there are people that “I'll send as many beers as I can to increase my odds of winning an award.” Because of course the GABF awards still mean a lot. TA: Yeah. There was a year, I know this to be true, where at least one or two breweries that don't need to be, and they're not from San Diego, sent somewhere between 30 to 50 beers. And didn't win an award. And these are pretty good breweries. So, you know, you're talking about the shotgun approach. You hit the side of the barn. But it was pretty interesting to see that they didn't win. You know, the years of late where we haven't, we haven't managed to win an award. You know, we look up and we talked to the guys and we say, you know, look at the breweries that didn't win. Like, you know, these are, these are still some, you know, solid, solid producers and congratulations to the ones that did. But yeah, there's no guarantee anymore. I mean, winning one is a pretty dang good achievement. JD: Yeah. Well then in some cases, like just recently, what happens to the beer while is being transported? It could completely knock a perfectly good beer that left here out of any consideration because what happens to it or it doesn't even get there. TA: Yeah. So we've tried to mitigate that as best we can. Where the consolidation point and we have been for a long time that helps with refrigeration and, you know, just really making sure that the beer is better taken care of, competitive, you know, competitive judging or, you know, competitive brewing. I would say this is far different than it was 10, 15 years ago. JD: I guess for good and for bad both. But back to your awards, is there any award that you have one that is the most meaningful to you? Not to discount the other awards. TA: Sure, I think two really come to mind. The, we've been lucky to win a (GABF) Brewery of the Year award four different times. And I'm, I'm personally, I really want to get to five. I want to have that. I want to have that, that last one on the, you know, in that, you know, if I, if they gave out rings, I want to have the handful. The last time we won was 2007, so it's been a long time. And we may never get that opportunity again. I think the one that I won last year, which was the Russell Schehrer Award for Innovation and Craft Brewing, that that's you know, that's a hall of fame landscape kind of thing. And it just speaks to the community involvement and the, you know, being, being a participant in this, you know, only 22 people have won it at that point. And I, I, yeah, the legacy award, you know, something like that. I mean, I, I still love, I love the GABF and World Beer (Cup) Awards, a couple of awards cause they're, you know, they're purely blind. They're your peers. They show your team that they're, you know, they're making the right decisions. But the Russell award was probably the one that was singular in the sense that that was, you know, personally with my name on it. Where it's almost every other award that we've had that we've been lucky enough to garner comes with somebody else, you know, participating in doing work in that regard. JD: Yeah. Okay. Well, very good. So, we're just about at the end of all my questions, from your experience, is there anything in the way of advice or a lesson you've learned or anything else that you think either can't be said enough or you haven't ever had the opportunity to say? TA: You know, I think that we were talking yesterday, it's kind of interesting. We were talking about how difficult this business has become and there's a lot of noise and chatter and 50 years from now when someone's looking at this, they'll say, wow it's not as easy as it used to be. And I don't know where the fall line's going to be. We're going to get to 10,000 breweries in this country. I don't doubt that that'll happen. And I don't know where, where the relevancy will be. I don't know what it will look like. I feel pretty strongly that in the time that I've been lucky enough to be in this business, a lot of what's made us successful has come from a very strong sense of this is the beer I want to produce. And nowadays there seems to be a lot of, you have to just do what the consumer is saying they want. And tons of breweries I think are kind of losing their way, respectful of an identity. And I don't know if the artist in me can, can sort of reconcile that for the long haul. I think there's this sense that if, if that's the way the industry is going, you know, is that what I signed up for? Part of me wants to see the consumerism shift and I, I talk about this a lot, but it's kind of like when you throw the boomerang out, it comes back a little slower than it went out and maybe the boomerang is coming back. You know, that there's just too much ubiquity right now. But maybe not. Maybe with 10,000 brewers, you just, there is ubiquity and that's just part of the nature of it. But you know, I think the success that I've had, you know, in this business has been built on beers that, that, that have something that look and tastes like things that I've, you know, imagined and there's been a lot of success for that. But I don't know how you continue to do that when there's 10,000 imitators and people trying to, trying to find the same sort of, you know, sense of their worth. So for me, I think the biggest thing moving forward is just where, where do we all fit in? It's just dense stuff. JD: Giving everybody a chance to attain their dream. But yeah, you know. TA: Yeah. I think that we're going to see, I think in the next two years we're going to see a lot of dreams getting crushed because it's getting, it's getting even harder today than it was probably a year ago. But there might be a light at the end of the tunnel in the sense that, you know, there's been a lot of distributor consolidation. There's been a lot of breweries, what they say, you know, rightsizing or trying to figure this all out. But it's a business. It's gonna eat people alive, you know? And, and that's what businesses do, right? There's, there is this, there's, there's a success rate attributed to craft beer that's not as high. I mean, it's higher than most consumer goods, and there will probably be a little bit more reckoning that will come along with it because you just can't, you just can't all swim in the same ocean. It just doesn't work. And so we're going to find some sense of corrective correlations. I mean, we're going to find smaller, you know, people are going to be making less beer for the next few years and if you're actively making more beer, you're one of the very few people that's, that's winning in that, in that space. JD: It does seem like we had a real bump up in numbers of breweries that opened in 2016-2017 which is being that this is 2019, we're looking at entering the fourth and fifth year of leases for a lot of the breweries. And I think that might be a time where people are going to have to sit down and assess. TA: Sure. I mean, if you've got a five-year lease and you're about to come into that fourth year, you're in the fourth year and you're now triggering the, am I going to renew? Right. I haven't, I haven't been taking a paycheck or I've been taking very little. And then at some point you're like, are we, is this a real thing? You know, I don't, I don't know. You know, people, people certainly I think come into it, you know, really, you know, eager and excited about it. And then little by little you're, you're grinding and there's a lot of grinding going on right now, which is okay, but you know, there's, but grinding isn't fun. JD: No. And when people come into it with a passion, which is a term you used earlier, passion cannot sustain you forever, unfortunately. I mean, it's what maybe gets you up the next morning, but at some point it's not paying the bills and you have managed to raise a family, you know, other people, you know, that they've got investors that may or may not understand the actual brewing industry and cause and effect and impacts. And, you know, yeah, it's going to be real interesting to see what happens. TA: Yeah. I've been pretty lucky. My partnership here hasn't had an unrealistic expectation of financial return. And, and you know, so, you know, we, we opened our doors, we borrowed some money, we repaid the money, and then we've basically reinvested all of that money into the company when we needed to. So we are not sitting here saying okay, you're, you know, you were relying on us for a dividend. And you know, that doesn't, it doesn't work like that. But the, the business of beer is very difficult. And you know, you, you talked about that word passion. We, when we opened our doors, I published this list of the 10 commandments of our brewery and one of the 10 commandments was that you, you know, passion isn't something you can buy at the corner store. And I meant that with a sense of like, if you come into this, you know, you can't just throw that term around. Like you've got to live it and breathe it. And I think that that kind of what you were speaking to earlier is, is, has always been like, I think there's a lot of people that will say, I am very passionate about what I do. And I have been, and that's, you know, over the 20 plus years I've been doing this. That's that, that is a word that I would associate with, with getting out of bed every day. And it's been very, it's been very conducive to being successful. That being said, you don't have to be overly passionate, but you have to be, you still have to be passionate about getting out of bed every day, even when you're struggling, even when you're not killing it. And I can guarantee you right now, there's a lot of people when they're getting out of bed who used to kill it and were, you know, who thought they were going to kill it and are saying to themselves, man, this is, this is real. Like, and you know, how do you, how do you put your game face on and, and, and really keep, keep grinding and to tackle the, you know, look, we want to get to the other side. JD: Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to be a long face when your consumers come in because they're going to say, Hey, I came in here for a beer and a good time. TA: I am here. I am here for a good time. Right. Any happy people? JD: Oh dear. Oh dear. Something that just came to me, which is not on the list of questions, but we are sitting in the space that Stone originated at. And you had just mentioned that you've expanded. Talk a little bit about the physical plant. What was it like when you moved in as Lost Abbey? What did you have to do to it and how many times have you expanded? TA: All right. So, when we took over in January of 2006 and Stone moved out to the facility in Escondido, they controlled at that point about 30,000 square feet of I think the building is 85,000 square feet. So, they had about a third of it. And when they moved out, we collapsed the entire building back down to their original suite, suite 104, and that suite is 7,500 square feet. So, we started with a 30-barrel brewhouse in 19, I'm sorry, in 2006. And we had 30, 7,500 square feet, including the tasting room, cold box, and our barrel warehouse. In 2009, I believe we moved across the parking lot and took over another 10,000 square feet and moved the cold box, all the barrels and our distribution. So, for awhile we had that space. We were up to about 17,000 square feet. 2012 or so we took over this suite that we're sitting in here, which was another 7,500 square feet. So that allowed us to build our packaging hall, this office, the lab, things like that. We rolled for the next few years, for the next five years. We had that 27,000 square feet of space. And then we added we added a second, third, fourth warehouse across the parking lot. And that took us to almost 40,000 square feet. And then last January we moved out of that distribution warehouse into another building here, which is now connected from the front of the street to the back. Behind us. We control 40,000 square feet under one roof line for the first time. And we moved out of the facility across the parking lot, all of our barrels and everything. So we now are under one building, one roof line. We can't drive from the packaging hall to the rest of the building. But every other building we can drive forklifts through. And that never happened. Two years ago, we owned four (forklifts) ‘cause we had four different buildings. JD: Now does Port distribute all the beers here in San Marcos? TA: Everything comes out of this facility. We are doing a batch or two a year out of the Pizza Port facility when we need to, but we don't, it's this, this facility can handle a lot more beer than we're currently making. So most, most everything that has the word Port Brewing, Lost Abbey, or Hop Concept on it has come out of San Marcos. It's only been this year that we've brewed two or three batches of beer down the street at Pizza Port. And most of that was for efficiency to do big runs of things that we could, we did a giant Hop Freshener, Hop Concept release at Costco and needed to have beer all at the same time. JD: So are you, in Costcos outside of California as well? TA: No, and that has been something we haven't really tackled or looked at. JD: Like it would be just an overwhelming amount of production yet I think... TA: Costco's pretty, pretty keen on a lot of local these days, at least for beer. So, I don't know how relevant we would, you know, we might be able to get into some in Arizona, maybe in Washington and Northern California, but you know, there's a ton of breweries in each of those locations. Tapping the same buyer on the shoulder saying, can I get, can I get in here? And, and the buyers probably got enough options that they don't even need something from out of here. And frankly, the cost associated with getting it to them would almost make it prohibitive in terms of trying to put it on the shelf at their right price point. JD: Yeah. Have you ever had to turn down any kind of requests because you just knew that trying to fill that big an order was going to just break you? TA: No, we've, we've been pretty lucky in the sense that when we do get we just came off of couple of pretty good-sized Costco orders and they were about 40 pallets worth of beer. But the brewery can handle that without being too burdened in the sense. I mean, it's certainly a lot of attention on one thing but we're not overly stretched at our capacity right now. So, when those things pop up, we certainly snap at them and want, you know we wanna make sure we execute on it. If we were making a lot more beer, we probably would have, we would struggle with that a little more. But when you get an order for 40 pallets of beer, you figure it out, you know, you really do. JD: When we walked back here, we passed one of your employees building a bike. What other sorts of things do you do with the employees or for the employees to support maybe their self-education, other interests that they have, things like that. TA: We've definitely put it on our radar this year. We've lost a lot of employees in the last two years. I think we've turned over 20 employees and we only have about 50 total. So, we've put an emphasis on that level of communication, you know, what can we do to assist you in this endeavor? It's not something that we've programmed in the past or been terribly good at. That being said, we haven't, we have really seen that there are some simple opportunities to do things like that and Tim's running his own small bike shop and it's just a, you know, it's a pocket, pocketed space here at the brewery. You know, we've announced that if there's other brewer or other brewery employees from the tasting room all the way up that have an idea, we would love to hear about it. We don't make a dime on it. There's no, there's no real emphasis towards, you know, trying to co-partner on things. It's just we, we want to, we want to foster the opportunities if it makes sense. And Tim's the pilot sort of program right now with the bike, the little bike shop that he's running and it gets interesting, I hope. I hope it sparks other employees to say, okay, cool, I've wanted to do this, that or the other and it looks like I could and come to us and say, ‘Oh, could you carve out this space again?’ We are, we are under more, more efficient space right now and we do have a little bit of room. So, I hope that, I hope somebody else says, okay, I want to do this and it, and it fits the needs and the use and isn't a big deal. It'd be great because it means that we can, we can continue to lift what they want to be a part of and retain them at some time. JD: Yeah. Very good. It was fun. Oh, okay. Well, I think that pretty much has run through my list plus of questions for you about your career, your history, and what's going on with Lost Abbey/Port Brewing. And I want to thank you for that. And I'm going to go ahead and turn this off. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08.xml ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arthur, Tomme. Interview August 8, 2019 Description An account of the resource Tomme Arthur has been involved in several San Diego breweries, most notably as founder and managing owner of Lost Abbey Brewing located in San Marcos, CA. His first professional brewing position was at the short-lived Cervecería La Cruda in San Diego, California. Arthur moved to Pizza Port Brewing in Solana Beach, California as an assistant brewer. After becoming Director of Brewing Operations for the increasing number of locations, he led the chain in garnering numerous beer awards. Arthur opened Lost Abbey Brewing in 2006 to focus on his interest in Belgian-style beers. In late 2023, Arthur separated Lost Abbey from Port Brewing operations in a ‘right-sizing’ plan in response to beer industry trends. Port Brewing retained the Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles, and Kharisma brands in their portfolio and took over the San Marcos production space and closed the tasting room. Lost Abbey entered an alternating proprietorship agreement with Mother Earth Brewing to share their production space in nearby Vista, CA. In his 2019 interview, Arthur discusses his introduction to craft beer and home brewing; entry into the profession and work at various breweries beginning in the 1990s; founding Lost Abbey Brewing and other brewery ventures; mentoring individuals in the industry; and awards. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-044 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Lost Abbey Brewing (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tomme Arthur Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jeff Bagby OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview February 21, 2018 SC027-053 01:43:40 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.) ; Brewers -- California -- San Diego County. ; Brewing industry -- California -- History. ; Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County. Jeff Bagby Dande Bagby Judith Downie wav BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.wav 2.0:|41(19)|72(13)|103(3)|151(11)|178(14)|221(15)|243(5)|289(4)|324(6)|347(16)|379(11)|410(7)|445(4)|482(14)|520(6)|552(9)|599(3)|638(13)|690(5)|734(8)|778(14)|816(6)|852(16)|878(9)|908(9)|934(6)|967(13)|1020(9)|1072(7)|1110(6)|1143(5)|1193(13)|1230(4)|1305(12)|1351(6)|1413(11)|1446(14)|1495(8)|1528(9)|1557(6)|1579(6)|1605(14)|1638(15)|1679(13)|1708(9)|1739(16)|1769(10)|1804(11)|1855(11)|1906(12)|1941(10)|1981(16) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a2147e643ec83629c21ffe9df0d387b8.wav Other audio English oral history Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024. &#13 ; &#13 ; Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations. &#13 ; &#13 ; Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles. &#13 ; &#13 ; Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time. &#13 ; &#13 ; In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer ; homebrewing ; introduction of craft beer to the region ; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s ; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery ; packaging and distribution ; charity work ; competitions, judging, and awards ; consumer education. Holly Sweat: Is this my copy or is this your copy? (Sweat referring to printed list of questions.) Judith Downie: You can certainly have that because I am just going to let Jeff and Dande, you know, tell me what they want because that is just a list of ideas. You certainly do not have to address anything if you feel like it is giving away company secrets or you are just not comfortable or you just forget about it and tell me something else equally interesting and informative. That’s great. I love to record what I can get. So, you know, it sounds Dande like you maybe got into this a little after Greg did. Excuse me, Greg--I just said Greg. After Jeff did. So maybe we start with Jeff talking about how did he become interested in beer or how did he get into the beer industry and--? Jeff Bagby: Okay. Yeah, so let's see. I started liking bitter beer, I don’t know, at high school, younger age. It just was something that my friends and I found--a couple of friends--who really liked the flavors. Liked the idea-- Downie: Now, were you in this area or where were you--? J Bagby: Yeah, I was born and raised in Encinitas. So, San Diego native. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: So yeah, around here. And, actually when I graduated high school, I bought that friend in particular a homebrew set for his birthday. And so, we both messed around and that was my first homebrewing foray, whatever you want to call it. Downie: Now where did you find your supplies for homebrewing up? J Bagby: Yeah, that is what I was going to say. So, you know, that's the age before the internet and cell phones and things of that nature. So, there is no-- Downie: Do you want to give me an approximate year? J Bagby: Uh, (19)93. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)92, (19)93, (19)94, somewhere in there. And, so we had known a little bit, we had heard a little bit, we had tried to go and fish beer from establishments even though we were not of age yet. But at homebrew shop you can buy anything without an ID. So, at least back then you could. So, we Homebrew Mart in Solana Beach. That's where I first met Yusef (Cherney) was actually the one that sold me the kit. Then he went on obviously to do his thing. So, kind of a cool connect there and then they kind of keep happening as time goes on. But, yeah, so we just messed around really. I mean, we re-read things, read books. Talked to brewers when we could, when we traveled, things like that. We ended up going to school together where we got more into it. We were doing all-grain batches and keeping a beer on tap at our house all the time, as well as beers like Sierra Nevada (Brewing Co.), Anchor Steam (Beer), Original Pizza, Wicked, Red Nectar, some of the Sam(uel) Adams beers. I don’t, what else we could get our hands on that we felt was better. (laughs) Downie: Now was there a bottle shop anywhere nearby where you could (unintelligible)? J Bagby: There was a few. There was in Encinitas and downtown there was Cork and Keg (Cork and Keg Liquors). There was a couple in sort of the Kearny Mesa area that were known for having, you know, hundreds of bottles and typically they were not very good. But we did not necessarily know that at the time (Downie laughs) because we didn’t know what we were tasting and not tasting. Downie: Right. Yeah. J Bagby: I did not know that some of these beers, well, they'd been sitting around on these shelves warm for, you know, a couple of years. Some of them survived perfectly fine. And most of them, you know, like, “Oh, that's what that tastes like, that's kind of weird”. So, when we can find fresh things or more exciting flavors, that was obviously a fun thing. And yeah, just like, I think anybody did back in the nineties, when you found a new bottle of beer, you kept it, or you kind of talked about it and told your friends, “Hey, I tried this, blah-blah-blah.” It was, you know, I was rating beer before there was the internet, before there was, you know, these things that we are so attached to. So yeah, that is kind of where the appreciation started and, you know, throughout college, like I said, wherever, I would go and travel, try to seek out breweries, brew pubs, if it was possible to talk to a brewer and get, you know, whatever information I could, you know. “What kind of grain did you use this? What kind of hops are in this? What is your process for this? And, oh, what size system do you have?” And, you know, it was fun to do. And I was fun to go to cities that had older, richer brewing cultures than San Diego, you know? Back then there was not even probably ten breweries in San Diego at the time. Especially none that we had real easy access to. The easiest one for, for me, ended up being Solana Beach Pizza Port (Pizza Port Solana Beach). Just because I had met people there and met the brewers there. I went there all the time and were buying homebrew supplies from down the street. So, as it grew, you know, I finished school, came back home. I worked summers at the YMCA in Encinitas running their summer camp programs. Youth summer camp programs. So, I was heavily involved in that. But I always really liked--still liked beer. Still went to festivals and— Downie: What was your degree in? J Bagby: It was communications, social science degree. You know, honestly, I just wanted to get done in the school. It is not really my thing. Downie: But you completed it, so “Yay” for you. J Bagby: Yeah, yeah, I can say I have a degree. Whoop. (Dande Bagby laughs) So yeah, came back home, worked that job or some aspect of it for a summer. And then I was hoping to stay on. I’d had several--I've worked there since I was fifteen (years old). So, I had years of experience, knew the program, knew everything and anything about it. So, it was hoping, well, maybe this will be a full-time job, because the program had grown and grown and grown in the time that I've worked there. But they didn't have a position. Good old nonprofits. So, I started just looking for a job. I was living in Cardiff with some friends and I needed money. I needed something to do. So, through the YMCA, I had a commercial driver's license to drive kids around, drive big old buses. So, I looked into driving jobs because they paid pretty well. And I could probably get one quick. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: You know, the degree did nothing for me, so. (laughs) Dande Bagby: Well, it sounds like you didn’t really want it, too. J Bagby: Well, I mean, it's not like you go, like, what industry are you going to be like? “Yeah. I have a communications degree from UC Santa Barbara,” like there, so? How's that going to help us do blah-blah-blah. There was no technology jobs. There was no social media jobs. There was no— Downie: Exactly. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) I was, I kept going into radio or like news or— Downie: (speaking at the same time) But it would have taken time to get employed, and you were saying you needed work now. J Bagby: Exactly. Downie: Which is certainly understandable. J Bagby: Exactly. D Bagby: So, think about that before we get the degree. (laughs) Just kidding. (laughs) J Bagby: So let's pay attention and talk about themselves once it’s their turn. (all laugh) D Bagby: Just saying! J Bagby: So anyway, let's see, let's see, oh, came across the job, driving job for Stone Brewing Company. And I remembered that I had been in Solana Beach the very first night they'd ever poured a beer and I'd met Greg (Koch) and Steve (Wagner) and tasted the beer. And I was like, “Oh, this would be great.” You know, I remember them, it's cool to see that they, you know, are still going and are making beer and need a driver. So, I just interviewed with Greg and told him my whole story. And he was like, “Well, obviously you're super overqualified. (Downie laughs) So, you know, you have the job.” And it was fun. It was interesting to see some side of the bar and restaurant and beer industry that I'd never seen before. Learning some of the weird rules that are still in laws that are still in effect today and delivered beer. Drove beer truck for three months. And Steve and I were at a festival. I would always hang back after I was done and talk with the brewers and see what they were making and see what was coming on and things like that. And Steve was like, “Well, we need another body in the brewery. We need somebody else.” And I was like, “Yeah, sure. I'd love to.” I was like, “Who do I give these truckies to?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So I actually found the guy that took my position as a driver. And he's still my Stone rep(resentative) today. Downie: Oh my gosh. J Bagby: Yeah. I still work for Stone in different capacity now, obviously. But yeah, he was a bartender at one of our accounts, he was actually at Pizza Port and he's like, “Oh, how's it going over there?” And “What's it like?” and I'm like, “Well, if you're interested, you could come check this out.” He was a bartender, so he could still bartend and do that. And so, yeah, he came over and I taught him the routes and boom, he was the driver and I moved into the brewery. So, I learned there, primarily from Lee Chase and Steve Wagner. Their methods to brewing, I'll say, which I still today, I think if you ask about mentors on here, definitely those two guys are some of the first. And they gave me a lot of introductions into people like Skip Virgilio, Yusef Cherney, Jack White, Chris White, Gina and Vince Marsaglia, where I spent hours in their restaurant. Several other people that are still working in beer today, and still active. And, you know, we all kind of, you know, kind of go, “Yep, you were there,” you know, when you have these people that have been open for five minutes. (Downie laughs) Not to say it's bad, but you know, it's nice to have that kind of a bond and that kind of a connection to people that remember when there wasn’t all the things that there are today. Downie: When it was a struggle. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yeah, big time. Downie: (speaking at the same time) I mean, not that it isn’t a struggle now to run a business and to start having all that, just to be in the first, the forefront of things. J Bagby: Oh yeah, there used to-- Downie: There is still some special barriers. J Bagby: When I was living in Cardiff, in driving for Stone and then actually working in the brewery for Stone, we would go to events like every weekend. Every Friday and Saturday night, you know? Because the sales reps are like, “Hey, can you guys come down and help promote?” Or, you know, whenever we went to somewhere and be like, “Hey, do you have Stone beer on tap?” And they'd be like, “What the hell is Stone?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) You know, and now you can't find somebody that doesn't know what that is. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And back then, it was totally different because people weren't paying attention. People didn't care. There was five tap handles and all five of them are taken up by mass-produced beer, you know? The Heinekens, Amstel Light, Guinness, New Castle, Bud, Bud Light, Coors Light, Miller Light, not Corona, it wasn't going on tap back then but it was in the bottle under the bar. So, it was tough. It was tough for them to gain ground and getting space. And because they came out with a Pale Ale, they were in an immediate competition with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, which had already, you know, been around for ten years at the time. So, you had that battle. You have this well, “What's, what's different from you? These guys have been doing it for a long time. They make this Hoppy Pale Ale. We've had it on tap. What's the difference?” So yeah, a lot of early struggles, a lot of, you know, almost telling--I like to say this, like Stone told people what to drink. When they came out with a beer like Arrogant Bastard and they came out with a beer like Stone IPA, and it came out with Smoked Porter that came out with these beers that no one was used to drinking and they were like, “No, you're going to like this, because this is what we have to offer. And people would taste it. And I think combined shock, new flavors, new tastes, things they'd never had before, they really grabbed onto it. And they were like, “No, this is, this is cool. I really like this.” Not necessarily knowing why or knowing what about the beer that they were actually tasting. Just that it was exciting and it was new. So, I learned to brew on that, (laughs) professional thirty barrel, professional brewhouse pretty quickly. Helped create the first Stone Barley Wine, Old Guardian. Lee and Steve and I each did five-gallon test batches. And then we, we tasted them all and created a recipe. So, that was fun. And few anniversary beers, you know, when they were taking Stone IPA and Double Stone IPA and Triple Stone IPA for the anniversary beers. Those beers just blew people's minds back then because no beer had had that kind of aroma and power on the hop side, you know? And they're not unlike a lot of West Coast IPAs that are still made today. So that was exciting. The Y(MCA) came calling somewhere in that first year, year and a half that I was in the brewhouse. I got hired at Stone in September of (19)97. And I worked there through sometime in (19)99. Okay. I'm trying to remember exactly when, but I did go back to the Y full-time because they actually have a full-time job for me and they needed the help. So, over the summers I would work a hundred-plus hours a week because I’d work a full-time job at Stone Brewing. And then I would go back over to the Y and help them with everything that they needed for the next day or for the next week of things I hired and trained. Yeah, it was crazy. Monitored staff, bus drivers, all these things while I was still working at Stone. Left Stone to do the Y thing after one of the summers, because I was like, oh, it's too much. And they were going to give me a little bit more money at Y. So, I went and did that and then got stomped on over there. Got passed over. And I was like, “You know what? I'm done with this. I've given my life to you guys and saved you guys several summers and I'm over it.” So, went back to beer, got hired at White Labs (Brewing Co.) in San Diego. I had known--by this time I had known tons of people in the industry. I had done festivals for Stone. I had worked for them in all sorts of different capacities and also knew the Pizza Port people really well. Downie: So what year--when did you get hired on White Labs? J Bagby: That was probably (19)99? Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)99, 2000? I can’t—I’m not positive on that. But somewhere in there. Because I definitely left--I left both the Y I think the--right before the 2000 summer started because they had made some really bad decisions and it bothered me. (Downie laughs) So, let's see. I worked at White Labs for-- Downie: As a brewer? J Bagby: No, as a sales kind of yeast consultant. Answer questions for people, take orders, you know. Downie: Was this at their--where they are now? Candida Street or--? J Bagby: No, this was the location before that. (Silverton Avenue, San Diego location.) Downie: Okay. J Bagby: A little--it's kind of an interesting place like offices on front, warehouse in the back, but much, much smaller than where they are now. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: But it was cool. It was definitely educational. It was neat to get to know Chris and Lisa (White) better as well as one of their other then-partners, Chris Mueller. I had already known all of them and met all of them so, it was kind of nice to get a job and work with them. And it was okay. It just wasn’t--it wasn’t exciting for me. And I wanted to get back into the brewhouse and I wanted to get back working with actual beer. So, kept in touch with Pizza Port and the people there, the whole time. I got hired at Solana Beach as an assistant brewer. And so, I was an assistant brewer there and bartender there-- Downie: And who was head brewer at the time? J Bagby: Tomme (Arthur), at the time. But we had become friends, gosh, right after he got hired there because I knew the brewer before him. And then they're like, “Oh, that's the new brewer.” So, I just like introduced myself and said, “Hey, I really like these beers here and blah-blah-blah” So we just got to chatting and hanging out and doing all sorts of different things. And you know, even when I was working for Stone, we connected just because it's, you know, another brewery in town. (laughs) And back then— Downie: Well, it shows the value of networking— J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: And knowing people, it makes a big difference. J Bagby: There's also a way to learn back then, you know? Steve and Lee were great and taught me a lot, but also learned a lot from Tomme. And I also learned a lot from a ton of other breweries that I met back in the late nineties and early two thousands. All across the state and even into Arizona. The guys at Four Peaks (Brewery Co.), still good friends of mine, even though they sold their company for who knows how much, they won’t tell anybody. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Places like Marin Brewing (Company), Anderson Valley (Brewing Company), Russian River (Brewing) now, when he was still in Temecula back then. Downie: He was Blind Pig (Brewing) back then. J Bagby: Yeah, I had met him (Vinnie) and Natalie (Cilurzo) back then. Untold numbers of, you know, going to the Great American Beer Festival (GABF) for the first time was probably my biggest eye-opener to all of that and meeting more and more people because now there was the whole U.S. and all the brewers in the U.S. in one room and back then it was easy. You could go and talk to people. I was working for a brewery at the time and that was 1997. It was my first GABF. And I'll never forget going up to people and trying beers and went, “Oh my gosh, that's awesome,” you know? And just making that acquaintance. And I know a lot of those people still today that I met that year at that GABF. So really cool stuff. And that just kept building, you know? Every time I could go to a conference, every time I could go to another out-of-town festival. Meet more people. (laughs) So, you know, at Solana, I was there for probably two or three years doing assistant brewing and bartending. And then a position opened up. I had met Tom Nickel through all of this too. Because he was good friends with Tomme. He was a part of the early Ballast Point (Brewing Company) and Home Brew Mart. Tom and I are still very good friends today and Tomme. And so, he said, “Hey.” He was working for Stuft (Pizza and Brewing) at the time before it was Oggi’s. And then when it became Oggi’s, they had one in Vista that opened, their brewer was leaving. And so he's like, “Hey, if you want a head brewing job,” I was like, “Hell yeah.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, took it. I had interviewed with a couple others. It was just, well I interviewed at Kona and just decided I didn't want to go and live on an island. (laughs) So, and there was an opportunity in my backyard, so, why not take that? So, did that for a while. That was fun. That was really the first time I got to see my influence on brewing, make a difference for somebody's beers or somebody's restaurant or somebody's beer culture, you know? It was the first time I'd won medals on my own with my own beers. You know, we'd done very well on Solana Beach. But this was cool because it was like my stuff. And worked with Tom (Arthur). He became their corporate brewer for a short time up in San Clemente. And I worked at that location for a while until Pizza Port Carlsbad had an opening for a head brewing position and that was a bigger brewhouse. That was more beer and it was more money and it was Pizza Port was kind of my first forte. So, I went back to that and ran, within a year, was running all the brewing operations on all of their pubs. Helped them open Ocean Beach. Hired, trained, promoted a ton of different brewers who are still in the brewing industry today. Yeah, you’ve got Yiga Miyashiro, the head brewer at Saint Archer (Brewing). Greg Peters, who's the head of Barrel Program there. Ignacio Cervantes, who was the head brewer of Carlsbad after I left and then took over (Pizza Port) Bressi Ranch and is now working for a new company in San Diego (Chula Vista Brewing). Noah Regnery, who also part of that company and Brandon Edwards is also a part of that company. All guys that were head brewers at Pizza Port went on to several different breweries and have all kind of come back together in one way. I'm sure there's other people. (laughs) Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: But it was a good experience and, you know, going all the way back to my Stone days, you know, Lee and I worked in this warehouse by ourselves, you know? Day in, day out. So, you get in these conversations, you're running, you know, a four head making bottling machine for eight hours while you're filtering a beer, you know? Like, you know? You are brewing, you get into conversations and you know, both of us were like, “Yeah, I really would like to own my own place at some point,” you know? And my thoughts at that time were, I'd really like to just have a beer bar or have a place because I've enjoyed that aspect of it. I enjoyed teaching people about beer, telling people about new styles and new things that were coming out or that the Pizza Port had just come out with. So, I said, “I don't know what, I just really want to my own place. And Lee was like, “Yeah, me too, me too.” So, it's funny that both of us have had that come true- Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: Over time. But in the Pizza Port years, having, you know, kind of pulled from my YMCA experiences with hiring and training people and building sort of a management approach to running the bars at the Pizza Port, they were, for lack of a better term, they were pretty chaotic and not very well managed. And the companies were, even though they were making money, hand over fist, they weren't making as much as they could because they were losing money, hand over fist because of their bar staff. So, I tightened up that. I taught their bar staff and what, you know, beer education programs, you know, you had to spend a day in the brewery with me, all of these things. And that carried on to all of the locations. And in doing that and forging that, that's when, you know, I started having conversations with Dande. We had met and I showed her--actually I was still working at Oggi’s when we met. And, you know, started talking about, well, “What do we want, what do you want to do with this? What would you do with this?” And I was like, “Oh, I want to open my own place.” And it was funny because people would come in while I was brewing in Carlsbad, say, “Oh, we're going to open a brewery.” And I was like, “Oh, cool.” Well, this is, you know, “I've been doing this for a really long time and I'm not ready yet, but you know, good on you.” Or somebody would come in who had just opened a brewery and I'd want to help support them. So, we had guest beers at Pizza Port, we would put their beer on tap and, you know? I would talk it up and everything. And then it was funny because by the time I left Carlsbad, I didn't have that approach. I was like, “Okay, bring your beers in and then I'll taste them and we'll see what we can do.” Yeah, “We'll give you some feedback or we'll see if we can get you into rotation or not,” you know? We have a big board, there's a ton of trends, and there's a ton of spots. They're almost always taken whatever the case was, but I wasn't as eager to just blindly accept the keg as I had been in the past, when there was, you know, “Let's promote local beer and let's get this scene going.” And it transferred all the way into here because now there's even more breweries. But now that I'm one of those people that's trying to sell beer to people. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: It's always so-- I get it. And, you know, hopefully, you know, the things that we had talked about before we opened and the things that we wanted to do is largely what you see today. When you come here and it's not just a beer aspect, it's a food aspect, it's a space and feel. It's also our cocktail and spirits program, wine program. All the things that we do here are things that we talked about ten years ago. Of course, it took us a very long time to get to that point. And I think we've surpassed many mountains in that process of getting to where we are, which is something that feels really good. But it's also a constant struggle when there's, you know, things that we deal with every day. And somebody asked me the other day, “Oh, would you go back and do it again?” Yeah, I would. Hopefully I know a little bit more. (all laugh) As Dande was talking about earlier with managing the construction, but it's been a crazy, crazy road. It's been fun to have been a part of San Diego beer, to have kind of put my efforts into not only just promoting the people that I worked for, but training other people into that and, you know, really teaching and promoting what good beer is and making sure that I did everything I could to make sure that San Diego was seen that way and perceived that way across the country and across the world. And I believe that I still do that today, even though there's one hundred and fifty or what odd breweries in town. I still make my efforts to make sure that that happens if that makes sense. Downie: Yeah, it does. J Bagby: Cool. Downie: So, what made you decide to basically take down Continental Motors? (J and D Bagby laugh) What made you decide on taking this piece of property and rather than taking over-- J Bagby: Good question. Downie--a building that you could just kind of refurbish? J Bagby: Yeah. Well, I kind of still ask myself that question a lot. (D Bagby laughs) D Bagby: Depends on how good the day is going. J Bagby: That 3,000 square foot warehouse looks pretty cool somedays. (laughs) No, we had a location in Encinitas that we were pretty fond of. I wanted to be the first person to make beer and Encinitas since there was one little tiny spot that was open for like nine months in downtown Encinitas called the Red Kettle. D Bagby: The (19)80s? J Bagby: And it was like (19)89 to (19)90, something like that, I think it was open. And sounded like the guy didn't know a whole lot about what he's doing. And it would be interesting to see if you find any more information on that. Downie: There’s very little on the Red Kettle. I’ve been looking. J Bagby: There's like one article you can still pull up online. Vince Marsaglia, I remember he'll tell me stories. He's told me stories about going in there and talking to the guy about brewing. But anyway, I wanted to be like, “No, I want to open up a brewery and want to, you know, it's not going to be a restaurant with the little kid in the back.” Like, yeah, I want to do that in Encinitas ‘cause Encinitas neighborhood made it look cool there. But building situation fell through. We had spent some time, even some money getting people together. We had met with everyone at the city of Encinitas. So, we knew it was going to be a bit of an uphill battle with what's going down there on the Coast. It was on Coast Highway in Encinitas, big, beautiful, gorgeous eighty-three hundred square foot building with a wooden barrel ceiling and twelve-foot brick walls. Gorgeous place. And the landlord--we had never actually spoke with the landlord. We had only spoke with his representative and he had edged us along the way. “Yeah, that's good. It's good. Yeah. That's no, he's, he wants to do this.” And we put in our LOI (Letter of Intent), you know, spent, like I said, I spent time with the city. This is what we're thinking about doing. Architects, all sorts of things. Structural engineering, because the building's old. It was an old Safeway or something, I think. D Bagby: It was a grocery store. J Bagby: Yeah, it was a grocery store at one time. That's why. And all of a sudden we just weren't hearing anything back from the rep. So, I just called them up and, “Dude, what's going on?” Like we were going forward, we think this is happening. We've heard nothing. And he just basically said, “No,” without, you know, I tried to reach out to the landlord. The owner said, “Hey, just meet me. Just--let's have a conversation.” Could never get there. And from what I hear, that guy's kind of a maniac, so I'm kind of glad we didn't get in that situation. (D Bagby laughs) But I do miss the idea of being there in that building and being in Encinitas. I think that would have been really, really cool. But-- Downie: As a hometown boy. J Bagby: (laughs) But, we took that setback. Or, yeah, it was a setback, because we were, you know, not that we'd put all our eggs in that basket, but we definitely— D Bagby: Several months. J Bagby: But, yeah, we spent several months of time on it. D Bagby: We kind of mentally moved into it too. You start to really put yourself there and how to Jeff, as you mentioned earlier, like, we had been talking about these ideas that you now see here for a long time. And so, you start to sort of layer those ideas over the space and figure out how things might go. And, it was really--it was a huge disappointment. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But we got over it pretty quickly and moved on and... J Bagby: Yeah. So, we decided to, not to stop, but to kind of regroup. We got married and after we got married, we decided to enlist the help of a commercial real estate. So, we, through some friends we found a really good broker. And he gave--started just giving me--I met with him--he gave me no less than I think a hundred properties throughout the county to look at. And we had already found out a little bit on our own through some other connections, you know. Basically, no one's going to give you any cash. If you're in a strip mall, you're going to be paying even though, your rent might be lower, you're going to be paying other fees that make that rent go back up. And they basically only take national conglomerate stores that have very, very deep pockets these days. Not too many private strip malls out there taking breweries and first-time owners and let alone, “Oh, you want to open a restaurant and a brewery? Okay, yeah. High risk, high risk. No, don't do it, all those things.” So, we sought out to find private owners and properties that started to fit what we what we had or what we wanted on there, which was coastal North County, enough space for a restaurant, enough space to have a decent sized brewery, and a space that will allow for indoor-outdoor dining. We love the aspect of letting people or giving the people the opportunity to eat outside in this gorgeous weather that we have almost year-round. So, I'd never thought about Oceanside, but I knew that anything in between Del Mar and Carlsbad was going to be extremely expensive and extremely difficult to find. Especially for the uses that we wanted to do. You know, we were trying not to have a conditional use permit. We're trying not to deal with the (California) Coastal Commission. We're trying to get into a spot where we could build or remodel, I should say, for the most part. Downie: Yeah (laughs). J Bagby: But pretty much ended up re-building. If you saw what we did to this place before we rebuilt it— Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: We basically tore it down. Anyway, he gave me a list of seven, eight properties in Oceanside here. So, I just grabbed my camera, my notebook, and my bike and rode them all. And I came across this one and it was--you could go all the way around it, but you couldn't see much. Where the brewery is now, were solid roll-down doors. It was their maintenance garage. Up front was a showroom, so, I could look in the windows there. That building to the south, you can kind of look in there too, but you couldn't tell what was exactly going on over here. You can see a little bit, all closed, looked like it had been, somebody had moved out. And so, in my head it just started clicking and I'm like, “Oh, what if that was there? And what if we put, you know, the brewery in here? What if we did this here?” I took, I don't know, fifty pictures of the place looked at the other properties and went home and told her. I'm like, “I found it.” And she's like, “What are you talking about?” D Bagby: You actually called me from the space. (J Bagby laughs) J Bagby: I’m like, “It's an old car dealership.” She’s like, “You're fucking insane.” I’m like, “Get in a car, come down here.” (all laugh) D Bagby: It’s basically what happened. J Bagby: (laughs) So, yeah, we just kind of went from there. We told our broker, “Hey, can you, you know—" super sensitive about contacting the realtor—realtor rep, landlord, anything like that. D Bagby: Because of our experience in the industry. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: We wanted to make--just kind of proceed cautiously. And we did not have our hopes up. We had no idea what they would--what their response would be to any kind of inquiry. J Bagby: We obviously originally thought that they wanted car dealerships to take it over again. Just because they were set up that way. They have the lifts, they had the excess parking. They had, you know, frontage on South Coast Highway. There's seven other places, you know? So, we thought that's what they were going for. And they originally, they kind of said, “Yeah,” because use is that, it'd be easy for their somebody to just take it over. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And a couple of inquiries they had because the space was so big and nobody wanted it all. They would want just that building or just the parking lot, or just part of this main building, main parcel. So, I said, “Well, we're kind of interested in all of that.” (laughs) And so anyway, the original conversation with rep-between-rep, the idea of a brewery got brought up by the rep from here and unsolicited-- D Bagby: By their broker, yeah. J Bagby: Unsolicited from our broker at all. And I was like, “Yes. Okay, cool.” And so, I'm like, “Hey, can we get in it? Can we look around and see what's going on?” So, the very first day we came to look at it and the landlords was here, the owners were here. And they wanted to meet us and they wanted to hear about what we wanted to do. And if we thought the space would work. And they're still friends of ours today. They still come in here and eat. His father was from Bamberg, Germany, which is a huge brewing scene in Germany and malts. There's two big malt companies in Bamberg. Then I said, “Well, I buy malt from Bamberg.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, we had this, you know, this back and forth. Their son is into beer. And he really liked the idea of the legacy of the property that his father had started going into another family business of some kind. I think that probably in the end was what attracted them the most to us. But we poured our hearts out like, “Hey, this is what we want to do. And we totally get it. Like, you know, we've never opened a business. This is a huge spot. We have to raise a ton of money.” All these things, but we really want to do it.” And they went for it. D Bagby: Much to their credit, honestly. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: They took a big risk on us. And, it's a big point of pride for Jeff and I-- J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: -- to count them among legitimately among friends. And, we're just, we're so grateful to them for just being open-minded. It was their family's business that was here and then that they had to close and they still own the property. And they, you know, we have a long long-term lease and several options. So, we don't own the space. I'm sure the property will stay in their family forever, which I think is fine. It's perfect. But they just really--they were very interested in us as people and-- J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: --what our vision was and what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it. And I think that aligned, even though they're totally different industries, it really aligned with their values. And, yeah, much to— Downie: Their European background. D Bagby: Yeah, definitely that that's probably part of it. (laughs) But I remember when they finally agreed, it was sort of like, obviously it's exciting, but it's also instantly terrifying. Downie: Yeah. D Bagby: You don't--And we didn't even realize at the time what we had just done, I don't think. (Downie D Bagby laugh) J Bagby: It took me six weeks to get the lease exactly where we wanted it. D Bagby: At least. J Bagby: And it's like, I think it's sixty pages of like, eight, nine-point font. It's like line-by-line and you just, you have to know, “Okay, what does this lawyerese mean?” And then go and read through and go, “Okay, no, that's what we don't agree with. Here's the change we need,” you know? And so, we just--the back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And then we start with contractors interviewing contractors, and that is a whole fiasco in and of itself because they're intense. And they realized that in the end, throughout this thing, I think they realized that their relationship is never going to be a great one, just because of the nature of the industry. D Bagby: It can’t. J Bagby: It just can't. There's too many variables and there's too much money and there's too much time involved for--I've never met anybody who was like, “Yeah, I loved my GC. My project went amazing.” They're full of shit. D Bagby: It’s like a disposable relationship in a weird way. J Bagby: Yeah, you just-- D Bagby: You need them, they you need but then it's over and we're done. We don't want to see you again kind of thing. It's terrible, but that's just kind of the nature of it. Downie: Now did your general have any background in building a brewery? J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) No, in restaurants. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) In restaurants. J Bagby: Yeah, restaurants, and commercial or retail. But mostly restaurants and bars is what we were attracted to him for. D Bagby: Small company also--J Bagby: Smaller company. Had the reputation of being able to do something like thisD Bagby: Had worked with the architect— J Bagby: Yeah, he had worked with our architect on a project before and yeah, I mean the architect firm went down in flames pretty quick. (D Bagby laughs) I realized, oddly enough, we got an apology email from him last week, which was--D Bagby: A little late. J Bagby: Frustrating two years later. But, yeah, they just weren't equipped and we didn't know that they weren't equipped. D Bagby: We didn't know enough to know that. J Bagby: Yeah. And then, you know, I spent countless hours going to the counters at the city to talk to the engineers, to talk to the-- D Bagby: The building inspectors. J Bagby: The building inspectors and just going back and forth. “No, we need this. Okay.” So, because I'm trying to facilitate--we're trying to facilitate this project and keep it moving. And there's obviously no one in the world has any incentive, but, or the most incentive than us to get it done. And so, we're just, like she said, we just took it on. We project managed, we--every day, we'd come here and walk through and see what was done wrong or what hadn't been done or why isn't, so-and-so working today, you know? And part of that was on the GC, part of that was on their architect, and they both fell down. The architect first and then the GC. We went through five superintendents here on our project to the general contractor. Downie: Oh dear. J Bagby: And by the end I was like, “Him or no one else.” And so, we got this last guy just to get through and get our building final then and everything. But you name a discipline, you name a part or a section or a wall. I spent time on it. She spent time on it. It's--so now, you know, we're like, we're telling them, we're like, “You guys get to go, you guys get to pack up your shit and leave.” And we get to turn around and actually do what we wanted to do six months ago, or, you know, a year ago. D Bagby: When we started construction, yeah. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: When we thought we’d be done, especially. J Bagby: We, you know, we need to spend time on--I mean, we're still taking on investors, but we have to start the project. We're still searching out for investors. We're still trying to find our key executive management team and how the hell we're going to run this place. I'm still trying to figure out how to get the rest of the brewery finished off and actually making beer because we didn't want to open without our own beer. And it was just, you know, just kept on, I didn't, I think I lost forty pounds and that last like six months of the other projects before we opened, just because I could never eat, I could never sleep. And I was constantly doing something on a project that sent my stress levels through the roof. So, it was very-- D Bagby: And then you get to operate your business. J Bagby: Yeah, and then you open and you know, there's five hundred people here on a Saturday and they all want food and beer. Downie: Excellent. D Bagby: Which is great, yeah. I mean, there is that question. I mean, you just, you don't know until it happens when you open the door for the first time. Is anybody going to be here? And I know that sounds ridiculous when you think of the size of this and even just people curious. Obviously, there will be people that are curious that are cruising by, but you really don't know. I mean, it is, you don't--you don't really let yourself think that because you can't. You just have to continue to stay true to your goal and your vision. And once you start, you can't stop. I mean, it's go time. And so, when you do finally open the doors, it's amazing. It is. It's kind of amazing that people are here. And I remember the first, like week we were open, it felt really strange that there were people here I didn’t know. I was like, “Who are these people? Oh, shoot. They're supposed to be here. That's right.” (Downie laughs) It was just very weird. And we had spent so much time here over the, you know, proceeding two years that it was--it was home. We were here three hours to one, the number of hours, or four hours to one, the number of hours we would spend at home for sure. And so, this was home. And so, we knew every contract, we knew every subcontractor. We knew everybody. And they knew us. And so, when it was time to let strangers in, (laughs) it was weird. But, you know, you get over that pretty quickly. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: Because they are spending money. Downie: Of course, talking about the ‘curious’ issue, are you going to come back? D Bagby: Yeah, of course. Downie: Because just a one-time visit isn't going to keep you going. D Bagby: That’s right. Yeah, that's right. And that's still something that's, you know, on the operational side that we are always striving for. We want to be that place that people are like, “I can't wait to go back there.” We're still young though. And I that's the counterpoint to that is first of all, never stop trying. I mean, there's always something we can do better, always something we can refine. Always a better way or a more efficient way or a way that's going to make our guests happier. So, we are always pushing. We never, ever stopped. And I don't think we ever will. That's just our personalities. And luckily, it's the same--those personality traits are reflected our management team. So, they all feel the same way too. There's absolutely nobody on that team that is not completely there with us. Ready to just keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And our staff, it goes all the way to them. The people that are attracted to a place like this to work here. They, you know, they like that it's family. They liked that it's unique and different. They like that we're always pushing the envelope, trying to come up with cool new things or new ways or whatever the case. And so, it starts to draw in people who are naturally attracted to that. And so, they have a really kind of an inherent flexibility that is critical, but we couldn't have scripted that. I didn't really realize that, but it is true. We are--we ask a lot of them. We ask them to be very nimble and to do something very different one day than they did the day before, because we're trying to— J Bagby: Sorry, I’ve got to go downstairs and talk to them for a minute. D Bagby: Okay. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: Okay, I'll be right back. I got to set up a potential account with some tasting. D Bagby: Doing some tasting. Do you want to bring them upstairs for a taste? J Bagby: You did ask a question and that was what attracted us to this? Just going to finalize that and say the space. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) D Bagby: Yeah, the space for sure was the deciding factor. But when he called me from here and I've told this story before, and he said--I asked, you know, the data, like, how big is it? What's going on? And when he started to rattle off the statistics, I'm like, in my mind, “There's no way this is going to happen. (Downie laughs) There's no way.” And then every little hurdle you cross over, you knock that domino down and then pretty soon you're signing your lease. And it still doesn't really feel real until then. And then even then it doesn't feel real until— Downie: But you've been disappointed once already so-- D Bagby: Yeah. Downie: So it was kind of like you don't exactly want to get too invested— D Bagby: Once you sign the lease though, and you are a personal guarantee on that. It's yours. And so, then it's like, what do you do with that? Because there is a certain amount of money that if you just--even if you decide to never do anything with it, you're paying on your own personal account for that. So, and we knew that it was a big risk of the landlords, the owners. We knew that we wanted to not disappoint them too, as another layer in all of this. But I really didn't believe it was going to happen until it started happening. (laughs) And then the train was going and there was no stopping it, which is good. Downie: Yeah. So, what about your background, Dande? As far, as you know, you said you worked in a Fortune 500 company. Well, what's your path that got you here? And to actually be supportive of something that you could have very easily said, “No, I don't want to do this.” D Bagby: Yeah. I still do say that sometimes. No, I'm just kidding. No, my background is really weird. But somehow it all sort of feeds into to all the things that we do here. So, I worked in restaurants in high school and a little bit in college. I ended up working for a very small sort of family-run or just a couple of friends started the small kind of Mexican food chain. It was a kind of a spinoff from the Rubio’s chain. So, they had helped Ralph Rubio start Rubio's and they started their own thing. And so, I, you know, started working there my first restaurant job and worked my way up into management. And I'm still friends with the owners of that. They've since sold it all off, but it was really exciting to be a part of a small, very small and growing company. When I first was hired by them, they had one location. And then ultimately, I think they had seven or eight. Not when I worked there, but at the end of the sort of end of the line for them. And what happened though, was that they set the bar really high. I mean, they treated this little single location, you know, eight hundred square foot taco shop. They treated it as though it was a corporate--very, very organized, very dialed in, very high-quality, high standards when it came to customer service and food service and all of that. Even though it was a walk-up counter. So that was my only exposure to restaurants was that. And so, it really, it changed how I saw things, whether it was from a business perspective or from a restaurant perspective. And that was sort of, that became my benchmark, for how to be. How to be a manager, how to be managed, how to treat employees, all of that stuff began then. And it was my first real job was there. And I worked there for many years while I was--and then I went to school--my degree is in biology from Cal State San Marcos (California State University San Marcos). Downie: My goodness. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. So, I was a molecular cell biology major. But, before that, I wanted to be a zoologist. So, I started at Palomar and my very first class, my very first semester of college at Palomar, was as zoology class. And it was just life science, check the box, get that out of the way. And I fell in love with it and it was everything. I loved it. It was--my instructor was amazing. I don't think she's alive anymore. Dr. Jessup was her name. And she was a genius and I just wanted to absorb a hundred percent of everything she could teach me, I wanted to learn it. And so that kind of led me-- I worked for the Zoological Society of San Diego for about seven years. So, I left restaurants and did that and finished my degree at Cal State and left. And I taught biology and environmental science at the high school level. I taught labs--biology labs--at the junior college level for a few years. And then ultimately worked for SDG&amp ; E (San Diego Gas &amp ; Electric Company) in their Environmental Science Department. And, that's about when I met Jeff. So, I had done all of this sort of teaching and I hadn't worked in a restaurant in a long time. And when he and I first met, he had, like he said, he had beer on tap, both at Oggi’s in Vista where he had been the head brewer and at Pizza Port Carlsbad. And I had always liked beer, but I knew absolutely nothing about it. It was completely foreign to me. I didn't even--it didn't really occur to me that it was something that you could learn about. It just sort of was a thing that existed. And of course that's--couldn't be more wrong (Downie laughs) even then in 2005, even then. And so he's like, “Well come and let's taste some beer at in Vista.” So, we went out there and he just did the tasting, not a flight. I mean he pulled--we had tasters of every beer that was on tap. There must've been a dozen beers or more. And he kind of just lined them up how you would want somebody to kind of learn about beer. And he just was like, “Okay, what does it look like? What does it smell like? What does it taste like? Where do you think that's coming from? What is that? Did you do--?” you know? I remember specifically the hefeweizen he's like, “Do you think we added anything to make that taste like that?” And I was like, “Well, yeah, you probably added some fruit or you added some spice.” And absolutely not. Just from the yeast, and that tied into my biology background. Downie: Right. D Bagby: And understanding sort of a little bit about, you know, yeast chemistry, yeast metabolism. And then it started to click. I was like, “Okay, this is cool.” And then of course that led into ales and lagers and how they're, you know, metabolized differently. And all of the life cycle and all of that stuff. And so that really kind of itched, or what do you say, like “Scratch that itch” or whatever that science-y stuff. I really, really appreciated on the cellular level, which I had kind of departed from working in environmental science. So, that was a really huge eye-opener and that was kind of it for me. So, we tasted through all the beers and that created this sort of framework for me that I still rely on today. That's just sort of styles and, you know, parts of the world. And, you know, this is like this. And that's like, you know, whether it's hops in English IPA versus an American IPA and why and how, and, even just the physical I'm like, “I don't know what hop is. I have no idea.” So, he went and he grabbed a handful of hops and was like, “This is what they are. This is what they smell like. This is what they look like. This is where they're grown.” Of course, that led into hop harvest. And that led into fresh hop beer. And I remember specifically that season going down to-- because he still was bartending. So, he had, he left Pizza Port or--excuse me, he left Oggi’s and Vista and he was head brewing in Carlsbad and he was still bartending at Solana Beach. And I lived in Cardiff at the time. And so, I would go visit him on his bartend. I think he would work Wednesday nights and same thing. He'd be like, “Well, taste this, have a taste of this.” And I specifically remember fresh hop beers that season because it was unlike anything I'd ever had before. They were--it was just amazing to me. It was this bouquet of--it really tasted like drinking flowers. And that was really exciting. So, every new experience was just something to be learned. Unlike Jeff, I loved school, I loved being a student. I loved studying and I still do. I still love to learn. So does he, but even in that, even in an academic setting, I loved at all. And so it created this never-ending quest for information and knowledge and then that tied into experience. And so, when we would travel to whether it was in California or abroad or wherever, it creates this sort of, I don't know, structure, if you will. This kind of map or pathway for learning that, you know, whether it's about people or history or the ingredients and where they came from. And so that became, it became a passion of mine as well. And this was pretty close to right away. So, you know, within the first year or so of us dating, you know, we were going to events, we were traveling for beer. We were, you know, it just became part of our shared thing. But also, I loved learning from him too. And, yeah, and he's right. We started talking about opening a place, or that he wanted to open a place, pretty quickly. I mean, it was certainly not something that was going to be happening anytime soon, but it was again part of the discussion. And so, when you're traveling somewhere, you're going--his family, his father's side is from Northern Arizona, Prescott. Little town called Prescott. So, you know, we were traveling out there once or twice a year to visit his grandfather and kind of hang out and there's Prescott Brewing Company. So, we'd go there and just kind of talk about whether it was the beers or the styles or the hop choices or whatever to--do you think how’s the service? Is that are--what would we do differently? What about the glassware? Does this seem right? And--or how's the check presented? I mean, everything, it just became part of the fabric of what we talked about. And, yeah, that lasted and it's still true. It's still true today. And we go places and we look at how just the, how the operational side, how people are solving their own problems and you know, are those things we can borrow or are they things that we would never do because they don't fit with who we are. So that's how, that's the weird biology-biologist into brewery owner. Downie: Everybody comes from somewhere. D Bagby: That’s right. Downie: Actually, you know, like you say, the whole hops chemistry. You know, Jackie Trischman in Chemistry at Cal State (University San Marcos) is working with Stone investigating hops chemistry. D Bagby: That’s awesome. Downie: So, you know, Bonnie Bade (Cal State University San Marcos) in Anthropology is medicinal plants, Native American medicinal plants, and looking at how those can be incorporated into beers and things, so… D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: So, it's--you can pull a whole lot of different disciplines and interests and experiences into-- D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: The whole world of beer. D Bagby: Absolutely. And that, and the whole historical piece too, is something that both Jeff and I are really passionate about. And that's a big reason why we have such diversity in terms of the beer styles that we brew here. He brews here because of that. They, you know, a Belgian blonde brings us--brings us back to Brussels. It brings us back to visiting with our friend Yvan (De Baets) from (Brasserie) de la Senne, you know? That to us is a big reason why we wanted to do this also is to bring pieces of these experiences that we've had all over the world right here. And if somebody is able, isn't able, or doesn't know they want yet to go to Belgium or they don't know they want to go to Germany or maybe they never will, you know? If we can bring a little piece of that to them, that's whether it's the beer, the glassware, the, you know, a little bit of history lesson through our employees. That's all--that's a big, that's a huge piece of this for us. So having a big staff is a challenge. Per slight understatement. Downie: How many employees do you have? D Bagby: We have about sixty employees now. Yeah. Which is the smallest staff we've ever had. We--when we first opened and you always open with more than you need, but we had over a hundred employees at one point. Downie: Wow. D Bagby: Which is a big, huge thing. Lots of people. J Bagby: Through all of that, through all of the construction, through all of the opening and employees (unintelligible), I like to tell people that absolutely nothing surprises me anymore. D Bagby: No J Bagby: Nothing. D Bagby: No, no. J Bagby: I've heard it all, seen it all at all. Been through it all. Yeah. Downie: And you're still standing. D Bagby: Yeah. We are. Yep. Downie: So, you've already said that you really don't look to expand beyond this site and it seems like it's large and you have plenty of elbow room but— J Bagby: We could even expand onsite because we have a building that we haven't really even touched--(speaking at the same time) D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Touched. Yeah. Downie: You’re kidding. D Bagby: Yeah. Downie: So you have expansion elbow room. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. Downie: But since you're not canning beers now, what are your plans for the future in, you know, distribution or canning or--? J Bagby: So, we've gone back and forth. What--we looked pretty seriously at purchasing a canning line. Mike Hess (Mike Hess Brewing) was selling theirs. So, I went down and looked at it, kind of ran some numbers and looked at it. But we wouldn't have been a good idea for cashflow for one thing. And the other was, we didn't have that output really. So, we'd have this really-- D Bagby: Beautiful. J Bagby: Nice canning line and it would be lovely to put a ton of beer in cans, but no output for it. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: Which, you know, cart before the horse or not, or whatever, it's sometimes you just have to jump in. And so, we decided not to at that point, but it is something that's on the mind, especially with a lot of our beers that tend to be growing in popularity and that we think would be really good in a package or in the proper package. So, that's still a possibility. But we haven't decided what step we're going to take first in doing that. So, there is a possibly of that in the next year or two, three. Other than that, I really want to continue pushing our draft distribution because it's something that we can do in the framework that we have. We have the beer, we have cooperage, we can get more cooperage very easily. And the capital outlay isn’t as much, and the space requirement is not as much or as intense as packaging. What else, what else? D Bagby: We one hundred percent self-distribute in California. So, we don't have a distributor anywhere. J Bagby: Out of state we have (unintelligible). D Bagby: Out of state, yeah, we (unintelligible). J Bagby: We’re not sending a lot out beer of out of state, yeah. (Aside to D Bagby, Forgot to tell you I talked to Matt Bonney yesterday about Washington.) D Bagby: Oh, okay, cool. J Bagby: So, we'll do some stuff up there, but anyway. (laughs) D Bagby: There you go. Heard it here first before I even heard it. (laughs) No, just kidding. J Bagby: And he called me during the party. D Bagby: Yeah. So self-distribution. We want to do that as long as we can. As a young business, (unintelligible), the margins on draft wholesale beer are already pretty, pretty low. So, you want to try to maximize as much revenue as you can at this stage of a business. There's also a lot of interesting things happening. I try to kind of dial into this a little bit as much as I can. There's a lot going on with this whole notion of hyper-local and, you know, being the kind of brewery that, and there are lots of them, that have these humongous, very ambitious goals to be in every state or to be in twenty states or to be all over the place right now. And I certainly don't disparage that, that's part of their business model and that's what they think is awesome. Go for it. But it's really feeling a lot like people are more, appreciating more and more, what's right near them. And you see certain breweries that are drawing back from that, that broad scale distribution more and more-- J Bagby: Or just staying where they are. D Bagby: Or are just staying where they are, yeah. They say steady is the new growth. So, I think we're just, we're kind of a cautious company. We don't take a lot of big risks. Maybe because we have such a gigantic property here and so much going on that we don't have to. I mean, we don't even have the energy really to make big plans. But, no, we do talk a about what's next and where, where are we going to grow. And I do think even locally--we, you know, Jeff said, when he tries to sell someone beer, we actually haven’t actively sold any beer. Every drop of beer that hasn't been sold over our bar here at the pub has been somebody coming and saying, “Hey, I want to have your beer on at my place.” So, they reach out to us either, you know, usually via email. J Bagby: That’s who I just met downstairs. And he is a friend, but they came to us to taste. More traditional sort of setup like, “Hey, can you send your rep by and bring some of your beers? I'd like to taste them on tap.” D Bagby: Yeah, we do not have a rep. (laughs) J Bagby: I'm the rep. D Bagby: We don’t have one of those. Yeah. (J Bagby laughs) Part of it is too--and so that’s, it’s kind of nice that that’s, because then we know the accounts that have come to us really already get it. They already understand what we do and appreciate that enough to reach out, but we do not, we understand that is not sustainable. And the growth that we really do want to realize on the wholesale side is only achievable with some outreach. And that’s something that is--we know, we both acknowledge that that’s really important. But we also, again talk about kind of risk aversion. We were—it's still too close to us. We don’t want to just hire a sales rep and tell them to go out in the world and sell the beer. It’s really hard to let go of it and to, you know, just be those, just say, “Oh yeah, go for it. Volume volume. Get it.” Because it still really matters to us who’s pouring it. How they’re pouring it. Are they taking care of the kegs? Is the glassware appropriate? Is it clean? Are the lines clean? All we need is somebody to have a beer like this Kölsch that I'm drinking that is so delicate. And such a light beer that, you know, if it’s not cared for it is going to be flawed. And you know, most people don't drink a beer and think that they don’t like and think that it isn’t the brewer (laughs) or the brewery. Most people do not say, “Oh, those lines must be dirty. That's why this does not taste right.” So, it’s just cautious and definitely overly cautious. I’ll say we are very careful. And, you know, that’s, at some point we're going to have to start peeling our fingers off those kegs a little more forcefully and get out there in the world and really see. We hear from time to time that people believe that we just don't have any beer to sell. Because we aren’t actively selling it, which isn’t true. We make a lot of beer and we sell a lot of beer over our own bars, but we definitely have some volume that could go out much more than it is. So, we’re working on it. Got our hands pretty full. (laughs) Downie: Now, this is something, you know, because you are both cautious people, but what if something happened and your landlord decided to sell the property? J Bagby: So, there's provisions in our lease that say that I can’t change our lease. Downie: Okay. Downie: It was very protective. D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: It was very protected line by line that thing to make sure things like that like they couldn’t say, “Oh, we are going to sell a parking lot to a developer for apartments.” They can’t do that, you know? So, if they sell it our lease stands. D Bagby: And we can buy it too, we have to be considered. J Bagby: We don’t have first right of refusal. D Bagby: Something else called that. J Bagby: Their landlord or their rep did not want to give that--our landlords have kids. I would not see them giving up this property to somebody unless we just came by and plopped the amount of money on them, which can happen. And, you know, I know that the people that own these shops kind of behind the alley-- D Bagby: West of us. J Bagby: The other side, are trying to develop it and turn it into apartments. J Bagby: I'm like, that is a six-year project. If Coastal Commission-- D Bagby: It’s the Coastal Commission. Downie: Yeah, it’s a coastal commission. Will even allow it. D Bagby: Yeah, if the city-- J Bagby: We are so lucky to avoid those things, you know? We don’t have a conditional use. It was in the beginning we had some neighbors that were complaining. And I think it was just because people were parking on the street. It’s public parking on the street. And they were just getting mad because they used to park in front of their house at a certain time of night. And it wouldn’t be a problem. You know, because we’re—anyway. Somebody came and complained and said, “Oh, well, I'm going to go to the city. And you know, I’ve already started signatures to get your conditional use removed and dah-dah-dah.” And I was like, “Well, that’s cool, but we don’t have a conditional use.” And (the city has nothing to do over what we do here as a business. Because we’re permitted as a right. So, (whispers) sorry about that. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah, it was, we haven’t really, honestly, for being as close as we are to residential, we have had virtually no issues other than the first probably month we were open where people were kind of caught off guard maybe by the volume. But that’s, I mean, at least as far as I'm aware, we haven’t had any issues. We haven’t had any issues. J Bagby: I had a couple of things. There was that one guy that, you know, I think he just wanted to come in and kind of rant. And I was nice to him. I just let him go. And when I said, you know, “I want to work with you. I want to work with the community, but you got to realize that, you know, the streets are public parking and unless you get that changed, which you're perfectly willing to try to try to do, but I don't believe the city is going to let you just for your spot in front of your house. And you know, I want to help you. We have the required parking that we're supposed to have for the use that we have here per our agreements with the city. And, you know, really sorry if there's any incidents or things that, you know, please feel free to call us.” Like just, you know, kill them with kindness kind of thing. And you know, reminded him that he really could not do anything about it. D Bagby: Yeah, you live on a commercial zone, basically the boundary of a residential and commercial coming together. And that can be a challenge, especially because there wasn't anything here, no operating business for years. And even when the dealership was still going, I mean, they wouldn't--there wasn't so much parking demand. Yeah. That would have ever affected them. So, I get it. I would be upset too, probably, but— Downie: But yeah. And change is always going to have somebody not happy. D Bagby: Absolutely. That's true. Yeah. Sweat: I actually have to go. I'm overseeing an event in Encinitas here in a second, so I have to run. D Bagby: I hope you don’t run into any traffic. Sweat: We’ll see what happens. (laughs) Downie: It should be pretty good by now. Sweat: I'll follow up with you tomorrow just to make sure you have everything you need and just see what any next steps are. But, let me know in the meantime if you need anything. Downie: Thank you, Holly. D Bagby: Thanks Holly. Downie: I wish you a safe and easy drive. Sweat: Thank you, I know. D Bagby: I hope so too. Holly, we'll look at those pictures today, too. I know you guys are asking and we just have had a crazy few days. Sweat: Yeah, we know with your party. D Bagby: Yeah. (laughs) Sweat: It looked like a lot of fun. D Bagby: It was a lot of fun. Sweat: And honestly, if you are only able to decide on like, a few, I could do the ones of Jeff just to get them to see. D Bagby: Yes, I'll do that tonight before I leave. For sure. And how many do we need to give her? Total? Or selection? Sweat: It’s in the email, like, how many you guys agreed to pay for. D Bagby: I can’t remember. Sweat: It might be one or two or Jeff. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: That we agreed upon. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: But yeah. D Bagby: Thank you. Sweat: It’s nice to see you both. D Bagby: You too. Drive safe. Downie: So, if you can still give me a little more time. I know I had just an hour, so I don’t (unintelligible)--. J Bagby: Sure. I might check in on that account in a minute, but yeah, if you have some more questions, for sure. Downie: You both sound like you're very, very invested in education, you know, which is a wonderful thing. What would you say, I mean, do you support any charities or causes through the brewery that you feel like you want to talk about? Or, are there plans to expand your reach into, you know, goodwill gestures besides listening to irate neighbors? (all laugh) J Bagby: It's hard, you know? We get approached almost every day about some sort of donation for something. We have an outlet on our website where you can fill out a form and apply. And while we like supporting charities and the community, it's difficult because there are so many of them. And we like to look at the ones that either we've supported either personally in the past, or that we have a connection to through a family member or a very good friend. Where we can say, “Okay, you know, this is important to us because of this.” You know, while we like also doing this, we're also running a business. So, at some point you can't--you have to close the doors a little bit on it and say, “Look, we want to help you out. But you know, you're asking—" we could do it. The easiest thing for us to do is donate beer. But the hardest thing for us to donate is beer because of the licensing required for the nonprofit to actually get it. And they don't understand that. Downie: I’ve run into that. (laughs) J Bagby: And we always have to be the one that's like, well, “We'd love to help you out, but there's this, this, this, and this.” Downie: Yeah, and more education. And what Stone did—because I approached Stone about some beer to maybe put into a scholarship raffle that we do through the Society of California Archivists I belong to. And it was, “Well, what did the ABC (California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control say?” And then I ran into the ABC and I just went, for the permits we'd have to get, it's just, you know, it would eat up what little money we would make. So, and I understand that completely because (unintelligible). D Bagby: Yeah, we’ve seen it. But, with that said, we are involved. J Bagby: Yeah, I mean, we just had two weeks ago or, not this past week and the weekend before, we had a gigantic breast cancer benefit festival on our parking lot that a lot of our staff members donate their time to. We donate beer to, we donate food to—yeah, we donate space. And basically, we host the charity. And that was something that I started with the woman who founded the festival back at Pizza Port. Downie: Is that Brewbies? J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's the biggest one that we have. And then this one that we just had almost raised almost fifty thousand dollars for charity. Downie: Wow. Wonderful. J Bagby: And so, you know, knowing that and having been involved with this one for nine of them now, and being in the beer industry in general, I'm always getting asked, I'm very diligent about when we get a request for a festival because sometimes, first and foremost, sometimes the festival isn't necessarily great for the charity. There'll be a promotional company--excuse me, that we'll get out there, go up to a charity and say, “Hey, we can make you five thousand dollars if you pull the license for this,” you know? But they don't realize the potential risks involved or the insurance liability that they have to take on, different things like that. And the production company ends up taking the majority of the money because the proceeds. Now it's illegal because one hundred percent of it with that one day ABC license is supposed to go to the charity. Downie: Right. J Bagby: So, if someone squats, the ABC can say, “Hey, we need to see your books.” And then not only does the charity get in trouble, which they may not even be aware of. Downie: Right. J Bagby: But that promotional company, and even the breweries could get in trouble because they donated to it. Another thing is on our side, not only are we just donating beer but probably donating two people's full day’s worth of time to get the beer ready to go to the event, to get all the equipment together, to drive to wherever it might be to set up, to pour, take it all down and bring it all back home, clean it all. And so, people don't realize what really goes into it on our side when we're donating. We're not just donating a beer, we’re donating quite a bit more so we're pretty diligent about those. But that's really the easiest way for us to support a charity or a community event, unfortunately. Downie: But those are facts that, you know, people need to be aware of. And you both talked about how much learning you've had to do along this path. D Bagby: We’ve done some kind of other fundraisers, though. J Bagby: Yeah, we've done some onsite things. D Bagby: There have been a couple of military things that we've supported and— J Bagby: And the dogs, yeah. D Bagby: So there's a few things that we really, really kind of key into that mean a lot to us. But yeah, I think as a— J Bagby: Firefighter-- D Bagby: Pint Project. J Bagby: Yeah. A couple of onsite things that were pretty successful and, you know, we're just--you get back to this, like you can't do them all, you know? And as not nice as it sounds, it does need to benefit us in some way as well. Because we are offering up a lot when we do these things and why we want to help the community, we want to help these people that need help in some way, we just have to be careful. D Bagby: Yeah. Exactly. Downie: Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, not every charity is a 501(c ) or is required and you get into all kinds of thin ice. So, very understandable. But, no. D Bagby: Now that's one of the things that I think is a benefit to us as Jeff has made it his mission and his absolute business to know as much as he can about ABC licensing. Just any sticky situations that are pitfalls. The San Diego Brewers Guild (a nonprofit organization that promotes San Diego breweries) just hosted like a ABC meeting at a local brewery a couple of weeks ago. And I feel like we knew a lot of that stuff that was mentioned, but it's still great to go and be a part of that. J Bagby: It’s like a refresher course. D Bagby: It’s a refresher. But you can just see in the room, people— J Bagby And you get questions and hands go up. And you’re thinking “You can’t do that.” D Bagby: Yeah. yeah. So, it was really interesting to see people's reaction to these rules that many of not all--I've been really long standing for a long time, but if you don't know, you don't know. And I think there's a lot of ask for forgiveness later, which may have worked in the past, but as the ABC gets more versed, they get--there are certain things that they were getting very particular about as they should. Downie: Well, once they see it as a continual problem, that it keeps happening, they're going to start coming down and— D Bagby: Yeah, and it's, you know, it is--I believe that it is your job as if you're going to have a license that you should know how it works and what--it's a responsibility. And it's hard for us to sometimes see other breweries who don't know. And that's fair if you don't know initially, but that blatantly break these laws all the time. And you don't want to see them get in trouble, but you also don't want to set up. It sets expectations on the customer side it sets expectations on other breweries’ sides were like, well, “They did it, why can't I?” And so of course for people like us who, like I said, risk averse, we want to make sure that we're--I mean, our biggest asset, those are the alcohol license. That's why we're here. So, if something happens to that, it gets jeopardized that's--that is a bad thing. (laughs) Very bad. So, yeah, it's, it's been talking about education. That's something that I've learned a lot from Jeff. And we've offered up if anybody has questions certainly here locally, you know, we're always available. People want to bounce an idea or, you know, find out more, we're happy to help. Downie: So, you're active in San Diego Brewers Guild. Because I saw you at Guild Fest (SD Brewers Guild Fest) and you just mentioned a recent meeting. Are there any other organizations you're active in or are members of--? J Bagby: We’re members of the Brewers Association, the National, um— D Bagby: CCBA. J Bagby: And the California Craft Brewers Association. Also, the MBA, the Masters Brewers Association of America. D Bagby: I'm actually a board member on the— J Bagby: San Diego. D Bagby: Brewer’s Guild. But yeah, there's a lot of those little things like that. J Bagby: I think those are the main ones, but those are all, I mean, there's some international stuff, but yeah. Downie: Yeah. What are you going to get involved in? I mean, again, it's kind of like the finding the charities that are actually going to be beneficial. Is that going to benefit you? J Bagby: (unintelligible) international. Well, yeah. I was going to say the only benefit for us because, you know, they have incredible conferences and technical courses. (Downie laughs) That would probably be the only reason for us to really be a part of those. And there's some competitions, there's some, some bigger European competitions that are gaining a lot of speed and a lot more Americans are actually sending beer over and winning medals. So, it's something to watch. But yeah, it's not like, you know, where we're going to Brau and Nuremberg every year or something like that. Downie: Well, that does bring up. When did you start putting your beers into competition? D Bagby: Good question. J Bagby: That was back when I was at Pizza Port at Solana Beach. We entered beers at Stone, but they weren't really--I didn't have anything to do with the recipes of those beers. Downie: Okay. You were an assistant. J Bagby: I was just standing there, but when I got to Solana Beach and was working with Tomme, some of those were my ideas and my things where I brewed them, or we brewed them together. It's a bit more intimate and I was a little bit more involved. So, I would say there, really. And that's where, you know, won, our first, or my first time across the stage. (laughs) Downie: Have you kept a list of all the awards you've won (unintelligible)? J Bagby: She did quite a bit of work on that before our business case. Before we opened. But I think she ended up just tallying GABF awards and World Beer Cup awards. Because there's certainly other things, too. There's like Alpha King. I’ve won that three times. That's the Hoppy Beer Competition that they hold during the GABF, that’s not associated with the GABF. Some awards at San Diego International Beer Festival, what do you call it? Beer of the Year, three times there. And some various other medals in, you know, have we ever entered LA county? A couple of times. So, you know, some things here and there. IPA festivas up and over North and Hayward. Years ago, I won medal at the Alaska Beer and Barleywine Festival. Downie: Oh, Alaska. Wow. You've really reached out here. J Bagby: It's a very long running, very famous festival. Downie: I’ve heard of it, yeah. But it just seems very interesting to me that if somebody were keeping a list of what beers they had won awards for, I think that would tell a story about some of the changes in styles and some of the expansion of styles of beers. J Bagby: Yeah, yeah. Maybe, I don't know. I was talking to somebody. I was in Miami at a festival this past weekend. A friend of mine, his anniversary for his brewery. And he throws a festival that coincides with it. It's invitational. Anyway, he invited me and I was like, “Yeah, I've never been to Miami. I'll go.” So anyway, I was talking to another brewer friend who was there and he was like, “Oh, well, you know, you won lots of IPA (India Pale Ale) medals,” and you and I was like, “Boy, yeah, I won some of those,” but also won in Belgians and a lot of different stout medals. And, I even have a couple of German pilsner medals. Some other like, you know, Scotch Ales, like Brown Ales. It's kind of a wide gamut. So, I don't know if my medal history would necessarily tell much of a story in that way. Maybe. Downie: Yeah. Well, I think the more pieces of evidence there are, the more our story can be put together. But have you ever done judging? J Bagby: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've been a judge at the GABF (Great American Beer Festival) and the World Beer Cup for thirteen years. Thirteen, fourteen years now. I don't remember my first judge GABF. It was like 2003, I think. So, yeah. I've been doing that for a long time and I'll be doing that this year in National. Downie: Yeah. I've heard comments that GABF has gotten so big and so many categories that has just really become kind of overwhelming. How do you feel about that? J Bagby: I wished that they would, on the organization side, that they would grow the competition to represent the growth in the beer industry. I get what they're trying to do and what then they have limitations, but sometimes I think they're being a little harsh on the restrictions on their side. You know, there's almost eight thousand beers in there, in the GABF last year, and I'm sure the World Beer Cup will be around that. And I think there's seventy-nine categories. They haven't expanded the categories too much in the last five years. I think maybe ten years ago there might've been sixty-something categories. So, it hasn't expanded a whole lot, but what has is the entries, right? So, brewers used to be able to enter around eight beers per brewery, or brewhouse, location into the competition. They've changed that and they have several different categories in ways, you know, like a Pizza Port that has five locations. You know, what if all five locations enter beers? Well, they have stipulations on how many beers a corporation, or a set of breweries, that are under one ownership can enter. So, every year that we've been a brewery, we've entered the maximum number of beers that we can enter into the GABF. And that makes it difficult because you only have four shots, right? Like we're sending four beers to the World Beer Cup. So, it's a more difficult. But so does everybody else. And so, everyone else has to make the decisions and the kind of cuts in their mind of which beers they want to enter, which ones that they're going to pass on for this year or this competition or whatever it is. So, it's still very fair. I think it's still judged very fairly. Probably the most fair competition there is in beer because of the qualities, the qualifications of the judges, and their palates and their history and their tenure as judges judging beer. It's all judged blind. It’s done very, very well. The problems I see with it are the categories that are masked, or you have over two hundred beers in the category: American IPA, Imperial IPA. I think American Pale Ale is pretty high. Some of these other ones that they get close to, you know, that are well over one hundred beers. You're getting into a situation where the algorithm isn't--so, you know, when they're spitting out their initial rounds and the algorithm that isn't accounting for past medal winners. Or beers--so you could have a round that has eleven beers in it, say it's American IPA, and that round might not have a single beer that's ever been in the competition before, or all new breweries that have never been to a competition for it. Then you could have another set of eleven beers where every single one of those beers has won a medal in the American IPA category before. And they’re, as far as I know, they're not accounting for that. And to me, that changes the game a little bit. Because even if you're a judge and you, at which has happened before, you'll get around and you'll be like, “Man, it was tough to pass on three of those beers, really could have passed on two or even just one and save the judges down the road some tasting.” Well, they require you to pass on three. They really push you to pass on three. If you absolutely can't then they want to hear why and want to hear an explanation. And so, I just believe that in that sense, you know, well maybe it's okay, but in the other sense where they're like, “Man, we had eight good beers. It was really hard to only pass on three beers.” So, now you've got this thing where you might have a potential medal winner that gets knocked out early because it was in a round with all excellent beer. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's--if I had a complaint about them, I wished that they would account for that. Especially in those--there's only, I'm talking to a handful of categories where that is really something I think that comes into play. The only other thing might be, like I said, to have grown with the competition or with the industry and allow brewers to enter more beers. But that takes more time. It takes more judges. They try to get the judging done in three days. If they didn't, they'd have to get another day, which is paying more, but you have to pay to enter the competition. So, to me, there's some work that probably could still be done. And there is a lot of brewers out there that are like, “Oh GABF. It's kind of eh.” You know, I believe in what my beers are and I send them and either I don't win medals or other beers win medals in the category that I entered that I don't think are as good as my beer. I think you have people that feel like that. But having been a judge, I've been on the tables. I've never been in a case where I was like, “That beer should have won a medal and it's not in the top three,” you know? I've never had a case where there wasn't a lot of thought and a lot of time spent into the beers that actually win medals. They’re medal-winning beers. Downie: Okay. I had a question and it’s just completely slipped my mind. J Bagby: Sorry. I know. Downie: No, that's okay. It still had to do with this. Um, I don’t know. (laughs) J Bagby: With the competition, or--? Downie: Well, oh, I know what it is. The brewers themselves decide what style of beer they’ve brewed. Have you run into cases where you taste a beer and you go, “This has--should have been in this category, you know. What were they doing putting it in here?” J Bagby: Yeah. Yeah. And the BA (Brewer’s Association) is real upfront about that when they tell brewers, you know, read the style guidelines and make sure that your beer fits into those guidelines and they give you everything. They give you a verbal description of the bitterness, color, aroma, mouthfeel, text--you know, everything. And then they also give you actual numbers for alcohol range, color range. Those are the things you need to pay attention to. And I feel like there is brewers that still don't pay attention to that. I don't know how or why. Or if they've just mislabeled their beers or what happened. But, they're—it’s pretty upfront. Like, this is--the judges have this when they're sitting at their table and they're going to read this before they start judging your beer. So, why would you enter something that doesn’t fit? Downie: Yeah, because you don't know why. Because I was thinking, well, maybe it's just their taste buds are different? Or it didn't transport well. (laughs) J Bagby: Yeah. I think, you know, for instance, she (D Bagby) sent me a picture one day. She had a Kölsch earlier. I can't remember what brewery she was drinking at. But she sent me a picture and it was this hazy beer in a straight sided pint glass. And she wrote “Kölsch--?” And so of course I went, “What does it taste like? Where are you at? Blah-blah-blah.” But a lot of people would look at that and go, “Well, Kölsch should be bright,” you know? Any German from Cologne is going be like, “That's hazy,” that’s got--you know. Even chill haze shouldn't really be there in a Kölsch. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: And a brewer's interpretation is one thing of what they call it on their menu board versus, you know, what category they might enter it in GABF. So, a beer like that might be an entered in a Keller beer. Because it might be an unfiltered Kölsch. So, they might say, well, “Yeah, it's German style Kölsch,” but it's actually a Keller beer because it was brewed in the vein of a Kölsch, but Keller is a German style beer. Downie: And that’s “K-E-L-L-E-R?” J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Okay. I'm still learning all the— J Bagby: Oh yeah, there’s tons. And that's-- Downie: There’s huge number of beer styles. J Bagby: Yeah, and there's, you know, historical beers that are becoming more popular and more rare, more obscure recipes and styles where there's a little bit more confusion or debate over what is actually correct. The Brewer’s Association does a good job of refining their categories and reviewing them each year. So, they take judge's interpretation—or judge’s comments on style descriptions. “No, no, this actually should be this way,” or “This should allow for this and this as well as this,” you know, so they do a good job of keeping up with that. But yeah, if you, you know, taste a brewer’s altbier at one brewery, and then he goes to another brewery and tastes another brewer’s altbier, they could be completely different beers. So, there that slide in judgment, but when you get into competitions, where's the category of your beer doesn't fit in it, then don't enter it. (laughs) Downie: Well, I mean, brewing is such a creative process. And there are as best as you can try certain factors like, you know, a Centennial hop may not be exactly the Centennial hop it was the year before due to the growing season, the factors there. So, it really is a creative process, but I've been kind of interested in the whole, you know, yes, I've seen some of these categories and descriptions and I'm like, “How can you always guarantee that those beers?”--well, obviously not. Not surprised. J Bagby: Yeah, there's interpretations of (unintelligible) category descriptions in different ways, for sure. Downie: Well, while you were meeting that account, Dande was telling me how, you know, when she first met you, how you were educating her into all the varieties of beers, you know? How she has found that to be so helpful. And then just the brewers I meet all seem to be that way as they to educate someone who--on the various styles that they're brewing or they're enjoying right at the time. Do you find that wearing? You know, continually trying to educate more people? J Bagby: I think when it's--if I was doing it every day, I think it might get—or the same exact set of beers every day or the same exact descriptions of the same person or the same, you know, whatever. I think I might get a little tired of it. But to me it's kind of exciting, especially when you have somebody that's open to it and isn't restrictive of themselves in their own palates. So, if you have somebody that's like, “I've never tasted German-style Weisse beer. I've never tasted American Red Ale,” which is kind of a better example. “I've never tasted Irish dry stout. I've never tasted—" you know? Whatever it may be. And if you can get five or six of those things in samples right in front of somebody, that's going to be a really cool conversation. Especially if that person's open to tasting and listening and identifying with what you're talking about in each one, you know? When you say, “Oh, what do you smell on that? What are you getting that? Okay.” Those types of things come from this ingredient or this timeframe or this hop or this malt and--or whatever other specialty ingredient might be there. And when the person identifies and goes, “Oh wow, that's really cool. I never thought of it like that.” All of the sudden you've got somebody who thought they hated German-style hefeweizen and going, “No, actually I'm going to order that the next time I'm out because I want to compare it or I want to see what it's like again, and kind of—"you know? I think people like, you know, connecting the dots in their heads. And if you've given them a little bit, just to even a little bit to bite on like English-style bitter, or an Extra Special Bitter, you know, what does that mean? What does that, it sounds, it sounds harsh, Extra Special Bitter. Well, no, there's actually some really nice malt depth in ESB (Extra Special Bitter) and it should be there. Well, it should have a firm bitterness, but what kind of bitterness? Well, it's not American piney, citrus, passion fruit, floral. And it's not that kind of hop it's the more herbal, spicy, earthy hop from the English varieties. And even just that much, and a person can go, “Oh, well, I really liked that.” Downie: And it makes it more accessible. J Bagby: And the next time, the next time I see it somewhere, I've got that connection in my brain to go, “Yeah, I know what I'm ordering it and there it is. Affirmation.” I'm drinking it. And it smells and tastes like I remembered. And I was told that it should. And I get that a lot where somebody will say, “Hey, you mentioned that, you know, this style beer can have this, this, and this. But I tried it over here and I got this, this, and this.” And that's sometimes where the brewer’s discrepancy is between styles or different ingredients or maybe just something is slightly different. But you can explain that away. And therefore, they've learned a little bit more and they have their file on whatever that beer was just got a little bit deeper in their head. So, the next time they try it and they connect the dots again. And I don't know, to me that's fun. That's exciting. And it's really exciting to see when someone's open to that and is engaging in that. It's kind of a little bit difficult when somebody says, “Oh, I don't like bitter beer,” or, “I don't like hops.” And you're like, “Well, you just haven't tried the right hops yet.” It's like, if you like beer and you're say you're a beer drinker, I believe--yes, you can have your favorites and the ones that you don't think are as great to you, but you got to try everything. You know, there's some newer, crazy styles out there I get, but the basics, ales and lagers, and the families within there, the style of families, if you say you're a beer drinker, you should know those or have a basic framework and understanding of what those are or have the desire to go, “I've never really tried that. I'm not really familiar with that, but I want to see. I want to see what it tastes like so that I know if I really like it, or I don't.” To like, find that out later, you know, like give yourself the chance to like it. Downie: It's like the three-bite rule with the kid and the vegetable. And then, you know, you got to at least try three bites of it. And then if you don't like it, we'll go from there. So that's a good way to do it. Now, do you have a favorite hop? Is there one that you like brewing with more than others? J Bagby: There’s definitely hops—plural--that I like using. We're a pretty classic traditional brewery. So, we stick to pretty traditional classic styles of beer. So, we're not using too many of the new, exotic, crazier hops. We're sticking to more of the classic American Pacific Northwest American hops and then the Nova varieties and then the English varieties. So, on the American side, you know, we're using a lot of Cascades, Centennial, a little Amarillo and Simcoe, and Columbus and Chinook. And that's kind of our core for the American side, but then the English ones are really wide and Noble hops as well. We use a lot of different varieties and again, not a lot of real new flashy ones, in part because of our contracts, we didn't know how and when our brewery was going to open. So, I bought a lot of hops because I was afraid that we weren't going to have any when we opened. So that drove that a little bit. The other part was just, yeah, I really liked those more classic American hops over some of the newer ones. Not to say that I don't like sprinkling a little of them here and there in brews, but I tend to favor those classic ‘C’ hops (referring to Chinook, Citra and other hops starting with the letter C.) Downie: And so you don't, from what you're saying, I'm hearing that you probably aren't planning on doing, you know, real strange and experimental beers either, you know? You're going to stick with the more--? J Bagby: No, I think if anything, I would pick some of the more obscure older styles. I’ve talking with some friends about a smoked wheat beer that used to be made that is actually--I believe it's actually a lager yeast and it's a fairly bright beer. But it has a smoked character to it, and a little bit of bitterness and wheat malt character to it. But I'm always afraid to brew smoked beer because I think, I always think that it's going to be me and like three other people drinking it. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Downie: Yeah, it could be a big mistake if you brewed it on your big system. So, do you have a small system that you can do little test batches on? J Bagby: No, it’s— D Bagby: It’s all or nothing. Downie: Well, that goes to being risk averse again. J Bagby: Yeah, we have a little lager on right now. I think it tastes fantastic. I just think it doesn't--I just think it's not exciting to people. It's a Belgium style beer. If you're familiar with Belgian style dubbel, which is basically like a Belgian style brown ale, but it has a Belgian yeast character to it. So, it's a little spicy and dark fruit and things like that. Well, take that and cut it in a little less than half with alcohol and flavors and everything else. We dropped it down to only about four and a half percent. It still has a lot of those characters, they're just a lot more mild and it's not as big and it's not as heavy. But it's not selling at all. (laughs) So, even somebody even called it dark Bud Light in the online comment. Downie: Oh dear. (laughs) J Bagby: That was fun to read yesterday. (laughs) D Bagby: That’s alright. It’s not for everyone. J Bagby: Nope. And that's exactly. That's kind of how we thought about it. Downie: One person's interpretation. J Bagby: Exactly, exactly. Downie: But yeah, if you're seeing that it's not really selling then, you know? You kind of-- J Bagby: Yeah, we (unintelligible)-- D Bagby: We had a few beers like, but that's, I mean, unfortunately, a few of them were Belgian styles. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But, Bruges Cruise was on for a long time. J Bagby: Well, that's because it was over eleven percent. We had people that loved that beer. But, we sold that at eight ounces at a time. D Bagby: Yeah, but we had it on tap for a year, also. J Bagby: (Unintelligible). D Bagby: They do A12. They do A12. Which is good. Downie: So, do you have much of a barrel aging program? J Bagby: We started one. We had, uh, we did twelve barrels and then we did another set with a different beer of just four barrels. All, most, all of that is gone now. So, we just brewed up Imperial Stout and we're getting ready to purchase thirty barrels. Just deciding what other beers we're going to put in those barrels and talk with the broker about making sure we get them as fresh as possible and which barrels they'll have available at that time. So that we're not filling barrels that have been sitting around drying out for months. They were nice and fresh. Downie: Yeah, you want to be able to extract something out of those barrels. (laughs) J Bagby: Exactly. But it's fun. I like doing it. But we do all straight up beer. We don't use any Wild Geese (blended whiskey) or-- D Bagby: Cupcakes. J Bagby: Or anything like that. (Downie and J Bagby laugh) So yeah, that’s fun. That's, to me, that's--I don't know, that gets to the uber fun side of brewing. You're like, “Oh, I'm going to put this thing in here.” Well, we had that beer that she was talking about in there for eighteen months and I just served it in Miami last weekend and it tasted phenomenal. Downie: (laughs) Love it when something works. J Bagby: Yeah. And sometimes they're don’t. That’s true. Knock on wood, we were pretty lucky with our barrels. Yeah. Downie: Okay. Well, I think I've exhausted all my questions. I learned a lot from you both. I've very, very, very much appreciated your time. D Bagby: Oh sure, our pleasure. J Bagby: If anything comes up or you're going through things and just feel free to email me or her and follow up. Downie: Come back with something that didn't record or transcribe or something. D Bagby: Don’t hesitate, we're happy to happy to help and also believe in what you're doing, and also-- J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: And also love to talk about all this kind of stuff, people that-- J Bagby: Yeah, it’s fun. D Bagby: People that are interested in it. Because, you know, we work so close to it, it's our life. But we are still--we are very passionate about it. And hopefully that comes through a little bit, even in construction stuff, and crazy things like that. Downie: I definitely see you have a future as working as a brewery construction consultant. (J and D Bagby laugh) Because really, you have gone through a lot of effort to educate yourselves and to do it right. And that kind of knowledge really should be shared. I mean, that's something I admire about Mike Hess. He wrote that, you know, ‘starting up a brewery’ webpage, but that still doesn't tap on everything. And especially, you know, doing something like this, of course every situation is going to change with every city you’re dealing with. D Bagby: But there are some basics that I think we would have really benefited from big time. And I think we would have heeded, we would have paid attention if somebody was like, “Hey, we just did this. Here's our experience. I'm here’s just how you can, you know, maybe avoid some of the pain, some of the pain points.” J Bagby: Yeah, the building part and you know, the construction management. I mean, I think part of that goes a lot. Like I can use the comparison as somebody's going to buy their brewing equipment and calling up three different equipment manufacturing and saying, “I want to buy a ten-barrel system, give me a quote,” and get three quotes and then just choose which one they want and order the equipment and get it sent. Well, I went up to the equipment manufacturer’s warehouse and talked with the engineers for two days before they even started drawing plans for my tanks. And then when they were about to start doing the finishing and they connection piping and all the process piping, I went back up there and stood in my tanks and looked at all the cores and looked at all the valves were and told them where I wanted to move things moved or changed. And the different specs on all--every single tank, not just the, the brewhouse stuff, but the cellar as well. Because you might get your tank and go like, “Why the heck is it like that?” And I kind of compare that to construction. Like we could have probably sat around and worked on other things and let them take forever to build this place and would have had something in the end, that would have been, but it wouldn’t been us and it wouldn’t been right. And that's just how we operate. So, I think while we spend a lot of time on that and we feel that it was absolutely one hundred percent necessary, some other people might be like, “Well, he didn't really need to do that. You could of—” D Bagby: Get by. J Bagby: But it's not us. I guess that was what I was trying to say. Downie: You have invested heavily in this, so why not have it right? But, Plan Nine (Plan Nine Alehouse) over in Escondido, I was over there one day and they didn't have any of their own beers on tap. And I said, “Gee, you don't have any of your own, I thought you were brewery.” And he said, “Well, we got new equipment and we've had continual leakage.” D Bagby: Oh no. Downie: And they, you know, this was like nine months that they had been dealing with it. So, you were exactly right in going--and I mean, even if you have to stand in your tanks and (unintelligible)— J Bagby: Well, and it’s kind of fun too. (laughs) Downie: Yeah, yeah. They will say, “Hey, I stood in my tank.” (all laugh) But, yeah. D Bagby: That’s too bad. Downie: So, something like that can go very, very wrong. J Bagby: Yeah, looking at welds and not (unintelligible). D Bagby: And also not having the support, because if you--when, you know, when you got your, whatever it is, whatever contractor you have or manufacturer having--actually, we're just dealing with the meeting before you got here or talking to a new point of sale company. And part of the reason is just a sheer lack of support on our current system. There's no one we can call and say, “Hey, you know our business, you know how we operate. These are the problems we're having.” There's just no one. And so, this other company that's--you absolutely have a person. So having your tanks leaking, you're losing money. You're, you know, that's literally money down the drain, and frustrating if you're a brewery owner, you’re a brewer, you definitely don't want to see your beer going down the drain. Yeah. Do you have the support you need from the manufacturer? Who's going to back up their work and if not, then pay a few more bucks and get somebody who will. J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Yeah. So, a lesson to live by. D Bagby: Yes, that’s so true. Well, thank you so much. Downie: Thank you. Yeah, let's see. Where's my stop button? (Downie and D Bagby laugh) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview February 21, 2018. Description An account of the resource Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024. Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations. Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles. Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time. In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer; homebrewing; introduction of craft beer to the region; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery; packaging and distribution; charity work; competitions, judging, and awards; consumer education. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-053 Subject The topic of the resource Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.) Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jeff Bagby Dande Bagby Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Holly Sweat Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dora Beacham OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BeachamDora_BeyerJason_2024-11-01_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran;California State University San Marcos;United States Marine Corps;Master Sergeant;Operation Enduring Freedom;Camp Fallujah;Iraq OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Beacham, Dora. Interview November 1st, 2024 SC027-069 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran ; California State University San Marcos ; United States Marine Corps ; Master Sergeant ; Operation Enduring Freedom ; Camp Fallujah ; Iraq Dora Beacham Jason Beyer Moving image BeachamDora_BeyerJason_2024-11-01_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/45e2396211b4ed28f7ed29a6dc245346.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 66 Personal Background Dora Ann Beacham served in the U.S. Marine Corps during Operation Enduring Freedom and reached her highest rank of Master Sergeant E8. She was born in Hondo, Texas. United States Marine Corps ; Master Sergeant ; E8 ; Operation Enduring Freedom ; Hondo (Tex.) ; Army ; babysitting 0 120 Military Enlistment Beacham says she chose to enlist in the U.S. Marine Corps because she was impressed by the uniforms of the service members’ who visited her junior high school. United States Marine Corps ; G.I. Joe ; school ; uniform ; junior high 0 169 Basic Training and First Assignment Beacham completed her basic training at Parris Island, South Carolina. She then went to Norfolk, Virginia for MOS 0411 logistics. She recalls excelling at the male obstacle course during field training. One of her least favorite experiences was taking off her flak jacket after hikes. Her first assignment was Combat Service Support Group 1 at Twentynine Palms, California. There she spent lots of time training in the desert with weapons, vehicles, and equipment. basic training ; Parris Island ; South Carolina ; MOS ; Military Occupational Specialty ; logistics ; Norfolk (Va.) ; bootcamp ; O course ; obstacle course ; field training ; hike ; flak jacket ; Twentynine Palms (Calif.) ; SAW ; M249 Squad Automatic Weapon ; 50 cal. ; M203 grenade launcher ; drill instructor ; Humvee ; grenade ; uniformed victim advocate ; sexual assault 0 412 Promotions Beacham was promoted to Corporal meritoriously. She then picked up Gunnery Sergeant while on recruiting as a Staff Sergeant. She finally reached Master Sergeant while at the Advanced Infantry Training Battalion. promotion ; Master Sergeant ; Corporal ; meritorious ; Staff Sergeant ; Gunnery Sergeant ; Advanced Infantry Training Battalion ; Marine Corps 0 467 Adapting to Military Life Although many people say bootcamp was the hardest part of adapting to the military lifestyle, Beacham says it was harder after bootcamp because you have to make your own decisions. She says being away from home became easy after a while. bootcamp ; Marine Corps ; home 0 514 Interactions with People During Stateside Service People often made comments about Beacham’s short height of 4’11” and were surprised to learn that she was a Marine. She says that most people showed her respect and thanked her for her service. Marine ; service 0 546 Wartime Service in Iraq for Operation Enduring Freedom Beacham was stationed in Camp Fallujah, Iraq, from January to August of 2004 as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. She worked tireless hours to provide support to individuals and Marines. Operation Enduring Freedom ; Camp Fallujah ; Iraq ; support ; Marines 0 601 Interactions with Local Cultures While Deployed Beacham says she learned a lot and had positive interactions with local cultures during her deployment. cultures ; music ; traditions ; values ; career 0 633 Combat Service Support Beacham was part of Combat Service Support Group 1 and the 11th Marine Regiment. She says her field training helped prepare her for Iraq. Combat Service Support Group 1 ; training ; deploying ; 11th Marine Regiment ; single ; desert ; Iraq 0 693 Friendships and Comradery Beacham formed many strong relationships. Working logistics helped her make connections with people in different roles. One of her most valuable experiences was with the Marines at the Advanced Infantry Training Battalion, where there were few women there. Beacham had to learn what they did and do all their logistics. friendship ; comradery ; relationship ; logistics ; supply ; inspection ; MOS ; Marines ; Advanced Infantry Training Battalion ; infantry ; females ; training 0 760 Communication with Family and Friends While Deployed in Iraq Beacham kept in touch with family and friends through email and phone calls. She communicated often with her husband and mother. family ; friends ; communication ; emails ; phone calls ; married ; son ; husband ; mother 0 796 Recreation in the Service While off-duty, Beacham would take walks around the perimeter to make sure everyone stayed safe. For recreation, she watched recorded DVDs, including lots of CSI. She also recalls being at the gym. She says it was funny watching people teach each other how to work out. recreation ; walking ; daylight ; evening ; DVDs ; CSI ; humorous ; Iraq ; runners ; gym ; working out 0 878 About Good Luck Beacham says everything happens for a reason, so she would not have any good luck if she did not have bad luck. luck ; good luck ; bad luck 0 912 End of Military Service Beacham recalls the ceremony held at Camp Pendleton to celebrate her end of military service. She reflected on the significance of her retirement given her personal background. end of service ; Camp Pendleton ; California ; Marine Corps ; retire 0 964 Living in California Beacham and her husband decided to stay in California where her son was already in school. She still visits her family often. home ; husband ; son ; school ; California ; family 0 994 Family, Community, School, and Readjusting to Civilian Life Beacham’s family respects her and often turns to her for support. After retirement, she has spent much of her time doing school and traveling for her son’s athletics. She says the community and lack of structure helped her decompress after years of military service. Her time in school helped her pursue a career as a social worker supporting veterans. family ; community ; Marine Corps ; respectful ; civilian life ; son ; teenage ; boys ; soccer ; mom ; school ; traveling ; Marines ; mindfulness ; empathy ; psychology ; social worker 0 1096 Experience with the G.I. Bill The G.I. Bill was important for Beacham because it gave her an opportunity to get an education and decide who she wanted to be. G.I. Bill ; school ; psychology ; social work ; opportunities ; military 0 1160 Keeping Friendships After Military Service and Joining Veterans Organizations Beacham still keeps friendships. She stays connected mostly through email and phone calls because many people returned home after service. friendships ; Texas ; Idaho ; New York ; Cal State ; California ; email ; phone calls ; veterans organization ; San Marcos (Calif.) 0 1210 How Military Service Changed Beacham's Life As a Hispanic woman from a small town, Beacham reflects on the limited opportunities she had. Her military service helped her get an education, achieve financial security, and build wealth for future generations. Beacham thinks the values she learned as a Marine have guided her in life, and she has passed those values onto younger family members. reflection ; service ; life ; community ; faith ; family ; Hispanic ; female ; opportunities ; education ; financial security ; pension ; generational wealth ; children ; Marine Corps ; school ; Chapter 35 ; ID card ; commissary ; nieces 0 1355 Life Lessons from Military Service Military service taught Beacham about the powerful impact that an individual can have on somebody else. She saw how the people she influenced would influence others. life lessons ; military service ; Marine Corps ; deployment 0 1451 Message for Future Generations Beacham reflects on how her gender, ethnicity, and race have shaped her identity and who she represents. She wants future generations to know that they can be successful. She believes that her experience in the Marine Corps made her an all-around better person. message ; future generations ; gender ; ethnicity ; race ; background ; Marine Corps ; successful ; family ; children ; grandchildren ; determination ; cultures ; male ; diversity ; mother ; student ; instructor 0 1586 Association with the Campus Community of CSU San Marcos Beacham became associated with the CSUSM campus community through the interviewer, Jason Beyer. She met veterans who help other veterans, which inspired her career as a social worker supporting veterans. CSUSM ; campus community ; community ; service members ; veterans ; Veterans Affairs ; VA ; benefits 0 1661 Bootcamp Story Beacham shares a story from bootcamp. She was nominated “Molly Marine” by her platoon for being the most engaged, supportive, and motivated. bootcamp ; Marine Corps ; awards ; PFT ; Physical Fitness Test ; sharpshooter ; highest shooter ; Molly Marine ; vote ; platoon ; chow hall ; drill instructor ; recruit 0 1772 What More People Should Know About Veterans Beacham wishes more people knew that veterans need assistance, even if sometimes they do not seek it. Veterans may be strong and independent, but they are also vulnerable. veterans ; vulnerable ; assistance ; support ; independent 0 1809 Lesson Learned from Military Experience—Keep a Journal Beacham wishes she had kept a journal while in the service. Although she has plenty of photos and folders, there are many experiences she never wrote down. lessons ; journal ; military experience ; photos ; pictures ; folders ; SPIE rigging ; Special Patrol Insertion/Extraction ; helicopter ; infantrymen ; boat 0 Oral history Master Sergeant Dora Beacham served in the U.S. Marine Corps during Operation Enduring Freedom. Beacham was part of Combat Service Support Group 1 and the 11th Marine Regiment. She was deployed to Camp Fallujah, Iraq from January to August of 2004. As a Hispanic woman from a small town, Beacham reflected on how military service shaped her life and provided important opportunities. In this oral history interview, she described her family, education, and life lessons from military service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.084 --> 00:01:06.594 My name is Jason Beyer. I'm a graduate of California State University of San Marcos. Today I will be doing an oral history and interviewing Dora Ann Beacham. Today's date is November 1, 2024. We are located in the Kellogg Library of CSUSM at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92069. I am a Marine Corps veteran and graduate of Cal State San Marcos, along with the interviewee, Dora Beacham. Today there are people attending—myself, the interviewee, Adel Bautista is the camera operator, and Marilyn Huerta. The purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your first, middle, and last name, branch of service, highest rank attained, and the war or conflict you served in. 00:01:06.594 --> 00:01:23.594 Good morning, Jason. My name is Dora Ann Beacham. (Redacted.) I served in the United States Marine Corps. My highest rank was Master Sergeant E8, and I served in the Operation Enduring Freedom. 00:01:23.594 --> 00:01:30.465 Thank you, Dora. So we'll begin with some biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:30.465 --> 00:01:33.344 I was born in Hondo, Texas. 00:01:33.344 --> 00:01:37.355 Does your family have any past military affiliations with the military? 00:01:37.355 --> 00:01:48.015 I had two uncles at the time that were in the Marine Corps—well, one of 'em was in the Marine Corps, the other one was in the Army. And those were the only people that served or family members that served at the time. 00:01:48.015 --> 00:01:53.064 Did you hold any jobs before entering the military? 00:01:53.064 --> 00:02:00.545 I held jobs as far as like babysitting, but no actual formal employments. 00:02:00.545 --> 00:02:08.495 When and why did you choose to join the military? And where were you—were you drafted or did you enlist? 00:02:08.495 --> 00:02:30.115 I actually enlisted in the Marine Corps, and the reason that I've always said that I joined the Marine Corps was since I was in junior high, I used to like to play with the G.I. Joe, little miniature (laughs) toys that I had. And that's the reason I joined. But also once I went to talk to a recruiter, it was more about getting an education. 00:02:30.115 --> 00:02:31.835 And which branch did you enter? 00:02:31.835 --> 00:02:33.194 It was the United States Marine Corps. 00:02:33.194 --> 00:02:35.715 And why did you choose that branch? 00:02:35.715 --> 00:02:49.835 The reason I chose it—I have to honestly say when they came into the school, it was the uniform. I mean, I think everybody says that it's the uniform looked so crisp and clean and that was my main reason. 00:02:49.835 --> 00:02:56.664 So for your early days of service, what type of training or school did you have? 00:02:56.664 --> 00:02:59.004 So prior to the Marine Corps, you're asking? 00:02:59.004 --> 00:03:04.645 Once you went to basic training—well, let's start off. Where did you go to basic training at? 00:03:04.645 --> 00:03:07.465 I went to South Carolina, Parris Island. 00:03:07.465 --> 00:03:13.164 And from Paris Island, what MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) school or training did you have after that? 00:03:13.164 --> 00:03:19.485 I had—my MOS was 0411 logistics, and I was in Norfolk, Virginia. 00:03:19.485 --> 00:03:27.185 What is the most vivid memory, both best and worst parts of your time training or in school? 00:03:27.185 --> 00:04:25.845 Let's see. So I remember it was probably—I would say it is my best. The bootcamp one stands out to me only because I'm, you know, four-foot 11'' and we had to go do the O course (obstacle course), but we did the male's O course 'cause it was during our field training. And I remember the drill instructors telling us, "Hey, so this is how you're gonna do it." So they'd put a recruit on the bottom and you'd step on their back and you'd try to jump up. And of course it was my turn. So I was just being me and determined. So I just hit the wall and jumped over and I didn't need nobody. So after that they took it away. So it was actually the best moment for me, but probably not the girls behind me. So, that was probably my best. As far as the worst, I would have to say, even though I finished my hikes, those are probably the worst 'cause you'd end up at the very end taking off your flak jacket. And once you take off your flak jacket, your back is just like crumbling. But that would probably be the worst. It's just at the very end. 00:04:25.845 --> 00:04:29.035 What was your first assignment after basic training? 00:04:29.035 --> 00:05:11.035 My first duty station—and I say it tricked me because I went to Twentynine Palms. It was Combat Service Support Group 1. And during that timeframe, coming straight from bootcamp and doing all that training, going straight to Twentynine Palms, we spent a lot of time in the desert, right in the field. And I was able to—I wouldn't say play with dynamite, but we were able to use dynamite, right? And the M203 grenade launcher, the SAW (M249 Squad Automatic Weapon), the 50 cal.—and this is all we did when we were there in Twentynine Palms is the field time, field time, field time. So, it kind of tricked me because I thought that's all I was gonna do the rest of the time, but it wasn't (laughs). 00:05:11.035 --> 00:05:17.334 Did you recall your instructors while you were at Twentynine Palms? If so, what were they like? 00:05:17.334 --> 00:05:35.925 I don't recall my instructors from Twentynine Palms. I do remember my drill instructors that were there, and that was Sergeant Wilson was our senior, Sergeant Rackey, and then Sergeant Shepherd. 00:05:35.925 --> 00:05:48.014 Do you qualify—did you qualify with equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radios, weapons? If yes, what was training with that equipment like? 00:05:48.014 --> 00:06:52.675 I think one of the trainings I got was driving a Humvee. That was interesting, being short, but I was able to do that. Obviously I trained with a lot of different weapons when I was in Twentynine Palms. The one that stands out to me the most was the M203 grenade launcher, simply because you put it on your shoulder and the first time it goes off, you're like, Oh my God, that hurt. The second time is worse. So I remember that. I remember training with grenades and having the instructors—if it was too close, they'd like, tackle you and throw you on the ground once you threw it. So I remember those incidents. Other than that, the trainings I went to, instructors training were—I was trained on giving classes and I was also trained on uniformed victim advocate, which was actually servicing service members who were sexually assaulted or any type of victims in that manner for military members. Those are the ones that I recall off the top of my head. 00:06:52.675 --> 00:06:57.524 Did you receive any promotions and could you tell me about them? 00:06:57.524 --> 00:07:47.485 Yes. I received promotions all the way up to Master Sergeant. The one that stands out to me the most at the beginning was Corporal because I got that meritoriously. So to me that was pretty awesome. After that, I got promoted. The other one that stands out to me as being on recruiting as a Staff Sergeant, and I picked up Gunny (Gunnery Sergeant) when I was out there. And the joke was, wow, as soon as the message board came out—my certificate was right after that—is they'd make a joke 'cause I was getting promoted first. And then of course Master Sergeant, that was my favorite promotion and that was because I received it when I was at the Advanced Infantry Training Battalion. And that was by far the most probably fun but also learning experience that I had in my Marine Corps career. 00:07:47.485 --> 00:07:56.105 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? Why do you think it was? 00:07:56.105 --> 00:08:34.784 I would have to go back to—not bootcamp. Bootcamp wasn't the hardest, that's what I always heard—but I would have to say that after bootcamp was probably the hardest, when you first start. 'Cause you're so used to getting instructions on what to do. And once you join the Marine Corps, it's like nobody's telling you what to do. You have to make your own decisions. So whether you fall or you succeed, it's on you. So that would probably be the hardest. As far as the easiest, I think being away from home started off being hard, but the more time I served it was probably the easiest part is being away from home. 00:08:34.784 --> 00:08:41.075 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:08:41.075 --> 00:09:06.183 One of the most popular or most eventful I guess one I'd hear was I'd tell somebody I was a Marine and they would kind of like, "You're a Marine?" I'm four-foot 11,'' so being—and petite—so people would always think like, "You're a Marine?" They couldn't believe it. But I think majority of the people that did see me, they always showed me respect and thanked me for my service. That was greatly appreciated. Those were the most common remarks. 00:09:06.183 --> 00:09:14.683 So now we're going to get into wartime service if it's applicable. What wartime conflicts were you a part of? 00:09:14.683 --> 00:09:23.125 I served under Operation Enduring Freedom. I was stationed in Camp Fallujah. 00:09:23.125 --> 00:09:25.174 And that's where, Camp Fallujah? 00:09:25.174 --> 00:09:26.815 Iraq. 00:09:26.815 --> 00:09:29.000 What are your recollections of that experience? 00:09:29.000 --> 00:10:01.195 It was from January 2004 to August of 2004. I would say that it was a lot of hours of working, and we provided a lot of support to the people that—to the individuals and Marines that were out there. A lot of needed support. And so even though we worked tireless hours, I believe it was worth it to make sure that it was for the safety of the Marines that were out there. 00:10:01.195 --> 00:10:07.445 What were your interactions like with local cultures and the people you encountered during deployment? 00:10:07.445 --> 00:10:33.154 The different cultures that I encountered, I think were all positive. I learned a lot, whether it was foods or different music that everybody listened to. Maybe different traditions—and of course values. So I think it was just something positive that I learned throughout my career, interacting and engaging with people of different cultures. 00:10:33.154 --> 00:10:42.565 Were you in combat, combat support, or combat service support roles? Or did the war zone make that designation irrelevant for you? 00:10:42.565 --> 00:11:33.475 No, I—like I said at the beginning, I was at Combat Service Support Group 1 and we did a lot of training out in the field. It was all about deploying and being in the field and preparing me. I also was with the 11th Marine Regiment. We were always in the field then, too. I was the lucky one. I think I was single till I was 29. And so I was—people might think it was a bad thing, but I thought it was a great thing that I was always picked first because I was single, so it was easier to send me. So I spent a lot of time learning a lot of the idea of being or actually training in the field in the desert, which prepared me, I think for Iraq—being out there in the heat and being away from everybody and living in tents and just transitioning from tent to building if necessary. So I think a lot of that prepared me for being out there. 00:11:33.475 --> 00:11:42.485 What kinds of friendships and comradery did you form while serving and with whom? 00:11:42.485 --> 00:12:40.044 I gained a lot of relationships, not only with the peers that were in my job but also that were connected to my job. Since I did logistics, I worked a lot with supply. I had a lot of relationships there. Different inspection teams would come out and inspect us, so I gained relationships, and I was taught a lot about our own MOS. One of the most valuable experiences and teachings that I learned—and interactions—was with—having relationships with Marines that were at the Advanced Infantry Training Battalion. It was mainly infantry, and there was just a few females there that you could probably count on one hand that were there. And I learned a lot as far as what they do, what they train, and what's needed. I did it—I did all their logistics for them. So it was important to know that they need all those supplies in order to train before they can even deploy it. 00:12:40.044 --> 00:12:47.683 How did you stay in touch with your family and friends? Did you choose to keep communication with them while deployed in Iraq? 00:12:47.683 --> 00:13:16.644 So I did a lot of interactions through the computer. I sent a lot of emails. We were able to make phone calls, so every so often I would be able to make a phone call home. I—at the time I was married and my son was only nine months old, so I was able to communicate with my husband a lot—not with him so much 'cause, you know, he really didn't talk—and with my mother. I think I communicated with her at least once a week to make sure she knew that I was safe. 00:13:16.644 --> 00:13:21.924 What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty in Iraq? 00:13:21.924 --> 00:13:55.575 I would say the few times that I was off—well, we were off probably daily for a little bit, whether it was lunch or in the evening before we walked back to our quarters. And I did walking, like, within the wall to make sure that we stayed safe, unless they otherwise stated not to. And it was usually during daylight. During the evening it was a little bit more difficult. So, I would say walking. And I watched a lot of DVDs—recorded DVDs—at night, of CSI (laughs). 00:13:55.575 --> 00:14:01.914 Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events while deployed in Iraq? 00:14:01.914 --> 00:14:38.315 Um, humorous—I would say being at the gym was probably the most humorous because you had everybody that used to run and stuff like that that wasn't able to would be in the gym working out. So you—the interesting and the funny part is watching everybody that wasn't used to and not knowing how were in there, learning how to work out. 'Cause you know, there were more runners but the gym people actually knew what they were doing and they would show us—Hey, this is how you work this body part. So I would think that was probably the funniest. 00:14:38.315 --> 00:14:45.034 Was there something that you did personally for good luck while deployed in Iraq? 00:14:45.034 --> 00:15:12.445 I wouldn't say that it has to do with Iraq, I would think general in my life, I've always said if it wasn't for bad luck, I would have no luck. So I've always believed in turning my bad luck into something. I believe things happen for a reason. So to me, if it looked like bad luck, it wasn't. It was meant to be and it's gonna turn out later on as something good. There's a reason why that occurred. So even though it could be considered bad luck, it was always my good luck. 00:15:12.445 --> 00:15:24.085 Now we're moving towards the end of service. Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you, and when was your service ended? 00:15:24.085 --> 00:16:04.894 Well, on my last day—I say physical because the actual last day was at home because you take vacation. But on my last physical date, I had my big ceremony, something that I had been waiting for for years. I was on Camp Pendleton, California, on the green grassy lawn that's out there. I had the band come out and play. And I would tell you it—what I remember, it was a day full of gratitude and proud moments of being able to accomplish it. You know, I wasn't—I didn't just join the Marine Corps. I was able to retire, which says a lot for myself and where my background of where I came from. 00:16:04.894 --> 00:16:11.495 Did you return home after service or were you—where were you and where did you go? 00:16:11.495 --> 00:16:34.075 So, we had actually established a home, my husband and I, in California. My son was in school so we decided to stay. However, I did return home and visit family. And I still do—I still return and see them. But we thought it was important to keep our family here in California and have my son continue in the school he was in. 00:16:34.075 --> 00:16:41.174 How were you received by your family and community once you completed your time in the Marine Corps? 00:16:41.174 --> 00:17:07.605 I would say what I've noticed as far—with my family—is they're very accepting, respectful of me, my time and service. In fact, if ever they need something, I'm the person they call. They believe that I'm the person that is gonna find the answer. "She'll find it, she'll figure it out." They have so much confidence that anything they need that I can just look it up or read or learn about it and it'll be there (laughs). 00:17:07.605 --> 00:17:15.845 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work or did you go back to school? 00:17:15.845 --> 00:18:16.993 I took a month off is probably what I recall—I don't think I've stopped since then—to join—basically my son played soccer and I was the soccer traveling mom for a bunch of boys age seven to 17 basically. And I traveled all around the states and a couple of countries. I actually joined—started school in August after I retired, which is just a few months afterwards. And I believe that doing that—traveling and meeting different people and having a different type of non-structured life—helped me adjust into the community area, which I think all Marines need, right? We need to like decompress a little bit. And it actually helped, you know, running around with a bunch of teenage boys playing soccer and helping them out. And also I learned a lot at school. You know, I learned mindfulness. I learned empathy and stuff, and psychology, and as far as being a social worker, and I think that helped me a lot—readjust to the community. 00:18:16.993 --> 00:18:20.115 Did the G.I. Bill affect you? 00:18:20.115 --> 00:19:20.394 Oh wow. The G.I. Bill has had like an enormous—it played an enormous amount in my life. Not only was I able to go to school. I think that the G.I. Bill helped me by going to school and learning the different psychology parts and social work parts. It helped me align with the fact of what I wanted to be. Growing up I didn't have that many opportunities. So the option was the military, right? 'Cause we didn't have money to go to school or other things—any type of professional career. So it kind of linked with, you know, what I learned at school to what I wanted to become. And what it taught me was, Hey, I didn't have opportunities, but I took what was available. And there's individuals that may not join the military, but they don't have—they're not aware of other opportunities. And I think the G.I. Bill helped me learn that I wanna help others have other opportunities in whichever manner or whichever path they wanna take. 00:19:20.394 --> 00:19:26.125 Did you continue any friendships after service? And if so, for how long? 00:19:26.125 --> 00:19:54.875 Well, I have plenty of friendships that I keep. They're mainly online because, like you asked, did I go back home? No. But a lot of other individuals that were my friends and colleagues, they did go home. They did go back to Texas or Idaho or New York or wherever it was that they were originally from. And I stayed up in Cal State and California. And there are a few here that I still are in communication with, but mainly through like email and phone calls. 00:19:54.875 --> 00:19:57.434 Did you join any veteran organizations? 00:19:57.434 --> 00:20:10.025 Yes, I did. I joined the veterans organization here in San Marcos. And I think that was it. I think that's the only organizations that I've joined so far. 00:20:10.025 --> 00:20:21.855 How was—so now we're moving on to reflections. How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:20:21.855 --> 00:22:35.944 I would have to say, if I start with me being a Hispanic female from a small town who didn't, like I said, didn't have many opportunities, I'm able to have better opportunities for education, financial security. I could tell you that the—my pension that I get actually helped me establish a foundation for the next generation. You know, we talk about generational wealth, and I think it starts with me. And, you know, I'm able to provide that for my son and then hope for his children, right? So I think that's the financial security. But not only that, the Marine Corps brought a lot of structure and values and stuff that you take in and you utilize not only in service but afterwards, whether it is education or whether it is a career path. And I think it provided a lot of value that has made me who I am, who I've become. As far as from my family, like I said, it's—my son has more opportunities than I had. He's able to attend school, he's able to use Chapter 35, what we have for his education. He used his ID card for many years going to the commissary when we were enlisted. And I believe the values and what I learned in the Marine Corps I was able to push onto him. And he has a lot of respect for others, and he doesn't take stuff for granted. I think it's based off what I learned in the service. And as far as for my family outside of that, I think it showed in the fact that I have two nieces that followed my footsteps into the Marine Corps. And I think what I showed them that they saw when they came to visit me and who I was and what I represented, it helped them say, "Hey, that's what I wanna be, that's what I wanna do." And the same thing for my son. My son didn't take the Marine Corps path, but he's like, "No, I need to be successful like my mom and my father"—'cause we're both military. So I think that's the impact that it had in my life, as far as my family. 00:22:35.944 --> 00:22:40.275 What are some of the life lessons you've learned from your military service? 00:22:40.275 --> 00:24:11.214 Hmm, life lessons. I've thought about this a lot, and I would say the most important life lesson that I got from the Marine Corps was how powerful an impact that an individual can have on somebody else. And in the Marine Corps, I recall so many times that I worked with my Marines—young Marines or even my peers—and, you know, we'd be doing a simple task or doing something to help one of the other companies or anything that we were doing, and I'd always have to tell 'em to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Look at what else is occurring. And they were able to do that, and they would even pass it on to somebody else. "You gotta look at the bigger picture." And I think sometimes they knew what that meant and what I was getting at. But the basis of it is that what you're doing now, the task you're doing now, affects the mission, what we're doing, maybe a deployment, but it also affects what you do in the future, right? Like what you're doing now, whether it's a goal, whether it's school, whether it's a task, learning discipline, right? Grit, right? You know, facing adversity? You take that along with you and it's gonna impact the rest of your life, whether it's in the service, out of service—and who you are, what you become, and how will people look at you. And I would say that that was my biggest learning lesson is that the impact that you have on somebody else could affect, you know, them down the road. 00:24:11.214 --> 00:24:20.025 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view or hear this interview? 00:24:20.025 --> 00:26:26.075 So I'd have to start off with who I am, who I represent. And it has to be with, you know, gender, ethnicity, race, my background, right? And I would have to say that for someone who's looking at joining the service—I say Marine Corps, but you can join any service—and you are gonna gain so many opportunities to not only be successful, but to be accomplished, right? And I will reiterate, it's not just in service, it's afterwards. You know, how successful you can be in the future. How successful your family can be, your children, your grandchildren, right? So I would tell 'em that when you're thinking about this is, you can do it. Like, it's possible. So stay focused and look at, you know, if I can do it and being, you know, four-foot 11'', I think anybody else can do it with a little bit of hard work and determination. And the other part of the legacy—'cause I can't exclude my counterparts—I have to include everybody else that were male—diversity from gender, race, different ethnicities, different cultures—is that the value you gain from the Marine Corps is important for you to be, as far as a citizen of the United States, what you learn here, the values you gain, the friendships that you learn and engage in, is gonna make you that better person, that better citizen, a better father, a better mother, a better student, a better instructor, right? Because I think we teach people throughout our lifetimes, whether we're in a classroom or not. And I would say to everybody else that it's worth it. So the legacy I would like to leave is that for everybody else is that, "Hey, if you're determined and if you set your mind to do something, you can. You just, you know, gotta push through all the adversity sometimes, and the struggles, but it's doable." 00:26:26.075 --> 00:26:30.894 How did you become associated with the CSUSM campus community? 00:26:30.894 --> 00:27:41.704 I would say, the community that we're working with now, how I normally got associated with is through you, Jason. Like a lot of times, you would bring to light that, Hey, this is going on. And it was awesome to hear that there was somebody that was that dedicated to, you know, bringing some light into other service members with events and opportunities that were out there for them to engage with other veterans, right? And I would say a lot of it was through word of mouth. I mean, you weren't the only one. I mean, you for sure were one of the most important ones in my last two years, but I ran into a lot of veterans that were doing some good work and supporting other veterans, and I think that's why I picked also the career path I'm working with is social work and I am gonna work with the VA (Veterans Affairs) here in a couple of days. And I think working with a lot of veterans at CSUSM, I learned that, hey, service members need support no matter which branch of service it is. And it's important for us to be there for them and provide them with—whether we have more knowledge of the benefits that might be beneficial to them. 00:27:41.704 --> 00:27:56.000 So in conclusion, I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:27:56.000 --> 00:29:32.644 Okay, I would say that one of the things that stands out to me was I remember being in bootcamp, and there's a lot of awards you get throughout the Marine Corps and bootcamp. You could get like first class PFT (Physical Fitness Test) or sharpshooter, highest shooter, right? And, one of the things that I recall the most is being a Molly Marine. You get voted by your peers on who was the most motivated and who was the one that was most engaged and supportive. And, by my peers and my platoon, I was chosen that—and the reason I bring that up is 'cause I remember this story and it was like funny. We were at the chow hall, and if anybody can remember being in the Marine Corps and leaving the chow hall, you always had the drill instructors yelling at you and like, "Hurry up, eat," you know? "You're done," you know, "You're done recruit." And I was always pushed on by my drill instructor to go in there and get everybody outta the chow hall. We're done, we need to be finished. So I did, right? You know, here I am yelling, and I'm a recruit. And being little, right? And this drill instructor—male drill instructor—came up to me and was like, got in my face, and of course he looked down, right? 'Cause I'm short. He's like, "What are you doing?" And like, just stopped me. And my drill instructor of course jumped in because you know, he didn't realize that I was doing what she had asked. But it was probably, one of the things that I like never told anybody as far as that's concerned. But I think that was one of the events that led me to being nominated as and picked as Molly Marine because of always being out there yelling, motivating, always being engaged and never like backing down from, you know, a task that was there. 00:29:32.644 --> 00:29:37.134 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:29:37.134 --> 00:30:09.315 I would say that, as much as we've gained a lot of physical and mental toughness, that veterans are vulnerable. Veterans do need assistance and sometimes they may not seek it. Sometimes they will refuse to seek assistance. And it's important to continue to engage and look out for them and interact with them because a lot of them won't seek support because we're so used to being independent and strong—strong-minded, strong-willed. 00:30:09.315 --> 00:30:18.815 So last question. In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:30:18.815 --> 00:31:32.154 I think one of the lessons learned—and if I could tell somebody who's just starting off right now—is get a journal. I have plenty of photos of things I did, but as I was going through this and looking at pictures and going through folders—oh my god, I did a lot. There was so many things that I experienced that I didn't write down. And, you know, 15, 20, 30 years from now—hopefully I'm still alive—I won't be able to recall those, and it would've been nice to know that, hey, yeah, you know what? You were out there SPIE (Special Patrol Insertion/Extraction) rigging at the bottom of a rope on a helicopter, right? With a unit of infantrymen because they're like, "Hey, you wanna join us?" Sure, let's go. Or I was on a raft platoon boat out in the middle of the ocean that isn't usually offered, but because I was ordering specific parts for them and I got them the parts at a certain timely manner they needed it, they asked me to join in. And those are just a couple of the instances that I remember of things that I was able to do. And I probably—well, I wish now that I would've recorded them somewhere so I could recall them later and maybe share those stories. 00:31:32.154 --> 00:31:37.654 Thank you for your time today. This concludes our oral history. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BeachamDora_BeyerJason_2024-11-01_access.xml BeachamDora_BeyerJason_2024-11-01_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Beacham, Dora. Interview November 1st, 2024 Description An account of the resource Master Sergeant Dora Beacham served in the U.S. Marine Corps during Operation Enduring Freedom. Beacham was part of Combat Service Support Group 1 and the 11th Marine Regiment. She was deployed to Camp Fallujah, Iraq from January to August of 2004. As a Hispanic woman from a small town, Beacham reflected on how military service shaped her life and provided important opportunities. In this oral history interview, she described her family, education, and life lessons from military service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-069 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-01 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dora Beacham Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dora Beacham License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <div id="dublin-core-license" class="element"> <div class="element-text five columns omega"> <p><a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><span>https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</span></a></p> </div> </div> Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Subject The topic of the resource United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps—Non-commissioned officers Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001-2014 Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island United States. Marine Corps—Military occupational specialties Victim advocates United States. Marine Corps. Advanced Infantry Training Battalion Educational benefits—United States Women soldiers United States. Department of Veterans Affairs Molly Marine (Symbolic figure) Hispanic Americans Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Hondo (Tex.) South Carolina Norfolk (Va.) Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Iraq California Texas Idaho New York San Marcos (Calif.) Fallujah (Iraq) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Seth Stanley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gezai Berhane OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Berhane, Gezai. Interview March 29th, 2023. SC027-37 00:52:04 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos ; California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Student Activities ; California State University San Marcos. Greek life ; Refugees -- Eritrea ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Black experience in America Gezai Berhane Seth Stanley Video 1:|13(11)|24(17)|34(6)|45(6)|61(14)|72(13)|83(14)|95(4)|105(14)|118(16)|132(10)|144(8)|159(16)|171(14)|183(8)|197(6)|208(3)|220(15)|231(7)|249(14)|263(4)|273(7)|285(3)|301(7)|313(5)|323(10)|335(7)|346(16)|360(15)|371(17)|381(8)|395(19)|410(7)|419(6)|429(8)|442(17)|453(12)|464(16)|475(3)|486(12)|500(6)|518(4)|528(5)|539(3)|552(10)|564(8)|573(16)|588(13)|599(6)|610(17)|624(7)|640(8)|643(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a06b713a6fd9a626ce2c5e87acc28e76.mp4 Other video 0 Introduction and Background Seth Stanley introduces Gezai Berhane, who discusses his background as an Eritrean refugee seeking education in the USA. Additionally, Berhane discusses how he came to work for California State University San Marcos. education ; refugee 0 266 CSUSM Early Days Berhane remembers his experience at CSUSM in the early 1980s as the first graduating class. This experience contributed to his later work at the university. 0 427 Cross-Cultural Center Berhane describes the beginning stages of the Cross-Cultural Center, then known as Multicultural Programs, and it's impacts upon the CSUSM campus. Before diversity could be implemented, Berhane considered the center a symbol for future progress. This includes the foundation of future centers such as the Black Student Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. 0 829 Memories Berhane briefly speaks about his favorite part of the Cross-Cultural Center in its early days, before speaking more in detail about his experience as an Eritrean-American. Dealing with ignorance and prejudices, Berhane illuminates the importance of diversity and inclusivity education. From his perspective, Berhane witnessed the lackluster American education and media systems that caused such ignorance. Berhane stresses that ignorance should not be blamed upon individuals, but a system-at-large. 0 1150 Impacts of the Cross-Cultural Center and CSUSM Memories of unexpected encounters in the CCC were among Berhane's memorable highlights. Beyond this, Berhane shares that he cannot necessarily separate the impacts of the CCC from CSUSM. Among the first graduating class, he had a unique experience in that he experienced CSUSM over three decades. The Cross-Cultural Center was one part of his work at the university, and considers his total experience at CSUSM impactful. 0 1397 Student Involvement and Orientation As Student Activities Director, student orientation was where Berhane stressed the importance of involvement. Berhane challenged students to stay engaged with their communities. With the Orientation Team, Berhane remembers the bonding experience of a weekend camping trip. 0 1743 Greek Life The course of Greek Life at CSUSM is detailed by Berhane. Beginning in 1993, when Greek Life was not fully recognized, when Berhane was more directly involved. 0 1957 Student Residential Life Before the main CSUSM dormitories were built, Berhane defines his role in facilitating student residential life at leased apartments. Berhane also discusses memories of involving his family in his work, in addition to perceiving careless waste. Berhane offers his perspective as an Eritrean refugee on American consumerism. 0 2245 Thirty Years at CSUSM Berhane and his family lived in San Marcos and bore witness to the development of the city and university. Berhane considers this experience to have given him life. He is beyond grateful for this experience, and instilled this love for knowledge in his children. 0 2499 Student Center Coexistence Berhane refuses to compare or contrast student centers against one another. He considers every center has its individual purpose which changes over time. Beginning in 1992, Berhane was passionate about providing space for those in need. As a Black student, he recalls the desire for a Black student club. This experience informed his later work to provide services to an ever-evolving student body. The importance of centers / service providers reaching students is also discussed. 0 2834 Advice for Future Inclusivity Regarding the future, Berhane stresses vigilant attention to underserviced communities, including students of Asian descent, who do not have an identity-specific space. Berhane stresses the importance of service providers / centers reaching and engaging with students. 0 Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Gezai Berhane. This is for the California State University San Marcos, Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. Today is March 29th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Gezai, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'll start off with a- with some questions. To start off, could you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to become a part of the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) community? Gezai Berhane: Well, that's a good question, and thanks for this opportunity. My background is, uh, I was born and raised in Eritrea, East Africa. I came to the United States as a refugee in 1983, so I've been here for a long time. But, um, back home when I was back home in Africa, in East Africa, I did not have an opportunity to finish high school. So, my goal, my aspiration was to at least finish high school. So, once I got the opportunity to go to school here, I tried to finish high school, but I was adult, so they say, “You can't even be here in the high school.” So, they kicked me out, but they told me, I can finish high school, uh, through something called the GED (General Educational Development test)? Something like that. And so, I did that. And then, um, I moved to San Marcos in (19)85, where California was cheaper than where I initially landed in the United States, which was South Dakota. A big difference. And so, I took advantage of the opportunity at-- enrolling at Palomar College. Uh, I did two years at Palomar College. Then I got interested more and more in school. By the time I finished Palomar College, Cal State San Marcos was coming. It was a great opportunity and I couldn't resist that. I had plans to go beyond the two-years degree because I missed four years of high school. So at least four years of high school, equivalent to me was continuously going to a four-year college. And so San Marcos came in, so I became one of the first Cal State San Marcos students in 1990. That brought a lot of opportunity actually for me as a new university, uh, starting from scratch. For me not having any other experience coming from another country and not knowing a whole lot about college, I was involving myself at Cal State San Marcos because every time they need somebody, volunteer, student assistance, do this and that. I was just trying to be as involved as I can, just, and as a result of that, after graduating 1992, among the first 1992 graduates, I was, then I got hired to, as a student, I was involved with student organizations, with Associated Students (Incorporated, i.e. student governance) and staff. So, my involvement led to a permanent position here on campus. And that first job and things like that was in the Dean of Students Office. And then by 1993, in the beginning, we were assigned a department to start a new department called Student Activities and Alumni Services. That is the root cause of the Student Life and Leadership, the Student and Residential Life (campus departments). I've been part of that since, again, I can say even though as a student, I started in 1990, I was also an employee or student assistant with the campus. So I have seen the growth of the campus from day one as a result of that-- Cross-Cultural Center, I know we'll get back to it, but that is as a result of growing departments and services to a growing population. So that's what (it) looks like a little bit on my background about who I am, as it relates to Cal State San Marcos. Stanley: And you were saying you were part of the first graduate, one of the first graduating classes of CSUSM. Could you maybe describe what the university was like in its early days? Berhane: Well, I don't know if you, if you wanna call it the university. We were taking all our classes at the, well, we used to, still refer to it, Cal State Jerome's. It was office buildings by, near the Jerome’s (furniture store) building. But luckily, SDSU (San Diego State University) had an extended classes in those areas. So, Cal Sate San Marcos didn't start it from the beginning. So there was some kind of structure as far as classrooms and things like that at Cal State Jerome's. So, all of my two years’ classes were taken there. But we graduated from the, uh, Craven Circle. We had our first graduation right there. We used the stairs, um, as a, as chairs for the guests, but we had chairs for the graduates, I was one of those. It was (a) very tight-knit community. We knew each other, the students knew each other. The faculty, staff, administrators knew each other by name, by everything, and all kinds of activities, including playing soccer with some faculty members at the Bradley Park. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Like, you know, if you were with the Dean of students, uh, you just called them by name. you as President Stacy, you were President Stacy, he’s Bill Stacy's office. Right. Because everything was just community. We knew each other. It was a community. The faculty, on the other hand, had a task to make sure that they're building a compatible, very viable university as a new university. So there was some challenge- they tried to challenge us, the students, but we were all re-entry, returners, transfers, no freshmen at the time. So, we met the challenge and exceeded the challenge. Within one year, we started Associated Students (student governance). Okay? We, I mean, a lot of things, because we were all mature returners and all of that. We met all the challenges and pa- and way beyond. So as a student, I just felt like I was so grateful for all of that opportunity. And so, my experience as a student here was great. Stanley: That's great. I love that all that does, the community and faculty knowing each other, stuff like that. Anyway, moving on to the Cross-Cultural Center, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Berhane: Okay. So this was, um, like, you know 10 years or later that the Cross-Cultural Center was implemented and, and whatnot. Uh, so the department, that the Cross-Cultural Center was under was named Student and Residential Life. We became Student and Residential Life. Just (to) give you a little bit of background, why residential life and student activities? Um, in the early, 2000s, the, the Division of Student Affairs, had a reorganization of certain departments on campus. Our department, the student, the Center for Student Involvement, which dealt with student organization, recognition leadership programs, and overseeing ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), ASI elections- was just called Center for Student Involvement. It initially was Student Activities and Alumni Services. Alumni Services split when it became, when it remained Student Activities only, we called it Center for Student Involvement, CSI. That then, like I say, as a result of the division's effort to try to reorganize the division in different departments, they brought the Residential Life and the Student Activities together. Once they brought us together, we decided to find a new name for these two departments coming together. So eventually we came up with Student and Residential Life, SRL. And so, while we were functioning on as a, an SRL, Cross-Cultural Center was added again, I mean, to that department. So we used to call it “C3.” We used to call it Multicultural Programs. I mean, C3 was the most popular name for Cross-Cultural Center. C3. And because the department, the SRL and the office that was assigned for Cross-Cultural Center were together, you just step outside, pass the bathroom, you go to the Cross-Cultural Center. It was just, again, even though we knew we were all part of one department overall, SRL. But having that we have to step outside and go and sit there and they started it with couches, not just chairs. It was just comfortable to go there and engage with the students who were there. Stanley: Do you, uh, remember any sort of activities or programs that the early Cross-Cultural program were, making happen? Berhane: I don't recall all the different, I know there is a, a big event that is, I don't know what it's called now that you do every year, but the, it was more for me, my memory in the fourth floor on Craven Hall (Administrative Building), on the fourth floor. Uh, when we were there initially it was more, okay, here is a program, a space for students to come and engage with each other and sit and relax and have a place to go to. Uh, but it has been a long time. So, I can't say I remember doing this and that with them. But I know there is something as a result of that, whatever started earlier, now there is an annual program and event that Cross-Cultural Center (inaudible). Stanley: So, um, in what ways would you say the Cross-Cultural Center has impacted CSUSM? Berhane: Well, I don't know if it is an impact to CSUSM, but I know Cal State San Marcos from the beginning has been saying diversity, the value of diversity has always been on the mission statement from day one. So the university to show that they are, you know, that being the first center for Multicultural Programs, you know, this is way before there was Black Student Center, Latino Center (Latin /x Center), Native American Center (California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center), and all of that. To say, let's start with something to at least say, call it a center for cross-cultural, you know, multicultural programs. To me, it was an indication, even though it was after many, many years of hearing the word diversity as part of our mission, serving a diverse community, all of that, to start with something like that, I think it was, a great initiative, it was. And look what happened after that. Okay, so there's Multicultural Programs. What do we do? What is next? What is next? And I think it's a great start. It helped the university start with something successful. Completion of that (Cross-Cultural Center) led to different centers, as you can see where we are right now. I think that's how I look at it, because like I say, I've been hearing the word diverse community, diversity, divers(ity), you know, our mission is to serve our population, diverse population and all of that. So I think it was a good start. So I would say it was a good experience for the university to start with something like that, as opposed to specifically, you know, as one of the different centers that we have right now. Stanley: Yeah. And you say you keep hearing the word diversity, but, would you say that the Cross-Cultural Center actually did have an impact on creating a more inclusive campus on, at CSUSM? Berhane: Well, like everything else, you know, if something’s to... to have impact or something’s to be popular or to be something, it has to be known to more people. Even though, with us through orientations, or everything else, as a campus, again it was more of a, campus with no housing on-campus, everybody was more, you live somewhere else, you come to classes and you will leave. So in the beginning, to be honest, there was not a whole lot of people using it (The Cross-Cultural Center). Uh, only a small group of people would use it. So if you’re there more often, you bring your friends. If I’m there more often, I’ll bring maybe more of my friends. But to the campus as a whole, uh, it was symbolic to have that, but I'm not sure to what, how much that impacted more student population at, you know, at that time. Stanley: Um-hmm. What is the, what's a favorite memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center, um, and how did it maybe affect you personally or professionally? Berhane: Um, I think I mentioned this before, when we talked (before the interview). It's more, um, you know, I work in the office. I’m with the students a lot. You know, many times I'm doing leadership programs, meeting with other students or with other staff members and things like that. So, to me, the Cross-Cultural Center was a place to go and do nothing but just relax. Because it was couches in there and then you're not there seriously to engage in a very, you know, other than just being there to have fun with people and just chat how students are doing. And so to me, it was a place to go, and whether it's through the Associate Directors that are working there, or whether it's through the students who are sitting there, it was a place where you can be free to chat with people and not really be doing work at that time. Uh, so that was how I looked at the center, in my memories, like saying, the couches are always in my head (laughs). Stanley: Um, looks like we have enough time for these questions. Um, since the Cross-Cultural Center has a lot to do with diversity, inclusiveness, and like being more (inaudible), I noticed when I was researching you that you've had a lot of trouble with people knowing where Eritrea is, and you're telling people, I do remember reading a newspaper article from, I think it was 1990, where you say, “Where is Eritrea? People keep asking me,” and I just wanted to say, do you still feel frustration, towards those who do not know where Eritrea is on the map? And do you still find yourself explaining where it is on a regular basis? Berhane: Well, in the beginning, before I knew how much students actually had a chance to learn about history or geography, it was, “Why don't they know,” you know? “They go to school.” We, when we were in elementary school, we knew all the different countries in the world and who the president was, what the capital city is, and then in the case of African countries when they became independent and things like that. Like it’s initiated in, I mean, like I said earlier, Eritrea when I left was at war for independence. So but, it was not covered in the mainstream media as a country fighting for independence. So when I came here, at least I had expected some people to know, because we had Americans stationed in Eritrea, you know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies. So some people should know where Eritrea is. So, for me to say it is near Sudan, it’s by the Red Sea, it’s near Ethiopia. And so in the beginning I was seriously educating people, but later on it became like, funny to me. It is like, “Where is Eritrea?” Well, the first question always is, “What's your name?” “I'm Gezai.” “Where are you from?” “I'm from Eritrea.” “Where is that?” (Stanley laughs) And then it became like, okay, I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time educating you because you have no clue. So I'll say it's, uh, a little farther than, uh, L.A. just by Santa Barbara. Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. (laughs) No, you wouldn't have heard of that, but I'm sure you heard of Santa Barbara. So the easiest answer for me is, yeah, just go look at it, (laughs), and there was no Google where, you know, we got the search and things like that. So it became funny afterwards because then it's like, it's just a waste of time too. And then if you say, I'm from Africa. Oh, but I've never heard of Eritrea. Well, that's too bad you never heard of Eritrea but that's where I came from. So, I think I transitioned from taking it seriously to maybe blaming a little bit more the educational system that we are not educating people even, you know, at the bachelor's level in the history class or geography. There was a, um, a map that was given, and we have countries identified here so it says, identify where these countries are, you know, on the map. People don't even know the United States, the States where they're supposed to be located! So then I realized, you know, it's not their fault. They just didn't have enough education about different countries, let alone, I mean about their country let alone about other people's countries. So I don't blame people. I don't get frustrated anymore. I'm like, “This is funny.” Depending on how I am interacting with the person, I can either say I'm in Africa or I can just say I'm near Santa Barbara, and that will take care of the business (both laugh). Stanley: Well, love that. It's (inaudible), just in one ear, out the other. Oh, that's cool- Berhane: That's good. Yeah. Stanley: Um, going back to the Cross-Cultural Center, you said that you would spend a lot of time just having fun in there. Could you recall a time with a specific person or a memory inside the Cross-Cultural Center that you remember fondly? Berhane: I think it was more with the second associate director or the first associate directors, and not necessarily with the students, because the names of the students, again, twenty years later, I'm getting too old to remember all of that, even though I can see their faces. It's harder to recall their names right now. But I think it's more the interaction with, um, unscheduled interaction with whether it’s with the associate director, or students who are regular. We used to call it regular students, but to be specifically telling you about individual students, it would be very hard for me. And I'll be lying to you and I don't wanna do that. Stanley: Okay. Well, uh, in what ways, uh, if any, did your involvement with the Cross Culture Center help you expand or develop as a person? And how has that impacted your career or personal life? Berhane: I mean, (laughs), as I said, as an involved person on campus, my professional and personal life as it grows, that I have gained as being part of this campus, it's enormous. It's countless, to tell you the truth, I grew up here. So Cal State San Marcos is home for me. I don't think there's a lot of other people who have started here and remained here for thirty years. Okay? I just retired in 2020-- at the end of 2021, which is thirty years later, since the university started. So the impact that grows personal and professional for me, I can't specifically try to address as a Cross-Cultural Center is, but I think my interaction with people who work at the Cross-Cultural Center, students who came to the Cross-Cultural Center, and being part of student activities. The leadership programs that this department has been planning and going, you know, whether it's going there, whether it is supporting the, uh, initial paperwork and whatnot, working with that group in general is part of my personal and professional growth. So I can't really say specifically and directly this and that. For me, it's more a, uh, the total sum of my overall experience, not just Cross-Cultural Center. Student Activities, Associated Students, the Dean of Students, the whole entire division. And in, and faculty too, as you indicated earlier. You know, if I have interactions with faculty, because we had to work with faculty members because they were supposed to be the advisor of student activity, I mean, student organization advisors, we had to work with faculty as well in doing some kind of orientation about their role and leadership programs, and how to help the student leaders and stuff. So for me, my primary function was in student activities, working with student leaders, student clubs, and organizations. So, the Cross-Cultural Center is, has been, was part of, part and parcel of Student Activities, but my main function wasn't directly that. So. But like I say, as within one department, we have orientation programs, for example. We had Greek Life, we had (to) oversee ASI (Associated Students, Inc.). All of those combined are the result of who I am, as opposed to try to, you know, narrowly say, yeah, this is how, and what the Cross-Cultural Center has left me as an impact. I don't wanna commit to that. Stanley: Let's go broader then. Berhane: Okay Stanley: Um, as a student activities director, were there any activities that you organized that you were particularly connected to or the, uh, moment on campus where you felt that you were promoting inclusiveness and diversity? Berhane: Well, I mean, a lot of the programs that we used to do from Student Activities is more... Okay, so if I notice that certain student groups that are not active, that are not really engaged, and what we used to do is go into orientations from the beginning to say, “You gotta remain active on campus.” This is, look at me, I never dreamed of working on campus or the university, ever whatsoever. You go to school, to college and you graduate, and you go look for a job somewhere else, but I'm here. So, students, you need to get engaged, you need to get involved. So, me encouraging all the new students that were coming in, or if they were here, and if I get to interact, I like to walk around and see if people are out there who would like to say hello, if they're not engaged, if they're not the student organizations. And within student organizations, if they're not taking leadership roles and things like that, I encourage people at whatever level they are. And so that's, you know, for me, I was fond of encouraging students to take leadership roles, to stay engaged, to work on campus, even at least as a student activity, and I mean as student assistants. And so for me it's more the day-to-day interactions with students, not just in generally, I mean. So, every year we know student organizations have to renew their contract every year. We have to do some leadership program trainings every year. And that's where you meet all the student leaders, and that's how you continue to engage with them and continue to advise them and continue to help them grow. And so for me, it's more, it's really hard to say yes, thirty years of experience is like to narrow it into one event or into one program. I've been part of student, I mean, ASI for example, Associated Students, (Inc.), we started with paper ballots, you know, like check-in the paper ballots. Then we moved to scantrons where you can do scantron, you (Stanley) probably don't remember. And then we had to go move up to online voting and things like that. So, you have to go through so much growth. And so, when you’re part of a lot of new engagements, new initiatives, it’s like you forget it because once you move to the next level, you just forget about that and now you're at next level. So for me, uh, like I say, it's thirty years of engaging with the students, faculty and staff, with administrators. It was a lot of the, a lot of the things that we see right now, whether it is programs through Cross-Cultural Center, or through what used to be SLL, Student Live and Leadership, now it's SLIC (both laugh), Student Leadership and Involvement (Center), something like that. SLIC, they just changed it. Um, a lot of the programs, a lot of orientation. I also worked with housing. So, housing was another area where, where you are engaged with students coming in with family, with their parents, you were engaged and things like that. And so, for me, it's just a, I was not like static in one department or in one function doing just one specific thing. I have been engaged within a lot of different things on campus. So that to me is, it makes it harder for me. It's like, as a result of me doing what specific area, this is where I am, or this is where I was, this is where I got. Is it just so much that I can say I've been a part of? And as a result, I grew up with it (laughs) and I even got retired, bro. (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. You say, that you really don't know, like what, I couldn't really go into specifics. Um, could I ask you to tell me just, just any story that you might have, of helping a student or being involved in the, on campus or anything like that? Berhane: Um, so for example, on Orientation Team. Stanley: Mm-hmm. Berhane: Orientation Team is, there's a training every year. We go camping. You go camping to Ramona or to Alpine (California) or things like that. My most memorable memories with the students is when you are going to those kinds of three, four-day trainings and camping and you are doing all kinds of crazy things in there. And so for me, my most memorable uh, fun memories are related to the orientation team going places and being trained. Things on campus, we've done so much. But when you get outta here and do other activities off campus, those were memorable. Stanley: Um, let's see here. Um, could you tell me about your involvement with Greek Life? Berhan: (laughs) Greek Life? Hmm. So when we initially started the department Student Activities in 1993, Greek life was not recognized as Greek Life. Greek life was more, you can initiate, but we are not gonna recognize you as a Greek Life organization because first of all, you have to go and communicate with the National Greek (Life) Association (National Panhellenic Conference). The campus was not a grown-up campus. And so my engagement with Greek life was more before they became Greek Life, before they became recognized, um, Greek organizations. It was more you give, they give them (pseudonyms) and we know where they're heading, but they recognized as student organizations where it's not supposed to discriminate membership based on gender and whatnot. Because as you know, Greek organizations are based on gender, kind of like the sororities, fraternities and things like that. So their names were not as Greek names. It was more a pseudo-other names. We know where they're heading, that's where they're trying and planning. But my, so in the early days when I was part of, you know, when they were part of that student organization, they were just student organizations. That's my experience with them. Once we recognized them, we started recognizing them, then the process of working with them moved to a new Greek Life advisor. And I remained with the rest of the other student organizations. So Greek Life before they became Greek Life, yes, I know who they were. I worked with them as their advisor. But once we have started to recognize them fully, then a Greek Life advisor has to come. A Greek Life advisor was hired. That's how we kind of-- we are in the same department, but me doing student organizations, these other person, Greek life leadership programs, all of us. And then orientation, and then Cross-Cultural Center, you know, all coming from within this department. Stanley: Um, you mentioned that, uh, they had to use pseudonyms instead of real Greek names. I was wondering if you could remember any of the names. Berhane: I can't. I can't. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to go back to the, the good old days. Um, we had, you know, documents. I don't have any of the documents, but if you wanna go search what the earlier, earlier student organizations... You kind of, you can find it in the (19)93, 94, 95 years, what student organizations were. I think some of that list might be still in student activities or SLIC or ASI might have that list as well. But it was, like I say, it is very hard for me to remember all of those. But it was three or four different student organizations. Stanley: Well, thank you for the reference at least. Um, you talked about, about how you were involved with student residential life, um, in the same vein as being working earlier in CSUSM. How was residential, residential life in CSUSM earlier on? Berhane : So before the, uh, UVA (University Village Apartments), the university village was built, the campus had leased apartments in what we call it, uh, the islands apartments. The Islands Apartments. Out of many of the apartments, the university leased several buildings and rooms. So we used to house students. And so even though I was working still in Student Activities, the Director of Student Activities was also overseeing the, uh, of campus housing. We called it the off-campus housing initiative. And so I was, I happened to be the other person also to help with that. So it was, again, off campus, the Islands Apartments. It's off of Wood, you know, in San Marcos, if you are familiar with San Marcos, uh, Twin Oaks (Road) going east, there is the golf course. Right across the golf course. There's Woodward. Woodward is a street. So I think they changed the name, but it used to be called the Islands Apartment. And so even though we were not, nobody was resident in there from us, the staff members, we were there to support students. It was, I was part of that. And that's pretty much so. And then once we build the UVA, the University Village, then everybody new has to take over. Uh, even though to this day, the Dean of Students where I worked overseas housing, all housing. So the directors of the on-campus housing, I think they also reported to the Dean of Students. And so, me remaining in, within the Dean of Students, under the Dean of Students kind of gave me an opportunity to really engage in work or move in, move out and things like that. But my experience with housing started with off-campus housing, and I continued to also do a list of off-campus housing. Um, so it still is in existence, I think. Stanley: Sorry, I keep, I keep asking you, but, uh, do you have any sort of (Berhane laughs) say sort of story or memorable moment in those residential, like when you were helping people move in or move out or stuff like that? Berhane: Yeah, it's just, so maybe a fun memories is where, you know, I live very close to them. And so if I take my kids with me and have my kids in there and, uh, see where, you know, this is for students, college students, I think for me it's more like my whole family was involved in things like that wherever I go, whether it's an event here. But fun memories with off campus housing, I mean, there was a lot of stuff people throw away and things like that. It’s like, you know, there's a lot. And for me, with my background from Africa. Like, there's a lot of people who could use all of those things. Things that are being thrown away. And it just-- things that I can think as like memories, okay, they're going throw the mattress to the trash, I mean, throwing it, oh wow, (laughs), somebody could have used that one. Uh, things like that. But I mean, in engaging specifically with individual students to say, I know so and so, so and so, is not there yet. It's not there anymore. (laughs) It's not there. Like the fact that I can remember the Islands Apartment because it was the initial apartments. We had students who lived there, you know, the residents of, uh, you know, a subleased apartment, but we were administering it and things like that. I think those things, I can see the apartments and the people, some people, but not a, uh, not a whole lot of memory of individuals. Stanley: Um, how, how has seeing CSUSM grow over the years impacted you, and your life around the CSUSM community? Berhane: Ahh. You know, I indicated earlier, I came to San Marcos when San Marcos was really a, uh, a mobile home community, a retirement community. When there was no stop signs or four, you know, four-way stops. It was just, you go from one place to another with no stop and five minutes was enough to get you from where you are to where you need to go, where you want to go. The fact that for thirty some years right now, I've seen the growth of San Marcos in general as a community, to where we are right now. It's very hard for me to believe, to tell you the truth. It's just very hard for me to believe. So, the impact is from this small community, retirement community, a neat community to the kind of growth that you see-- even when we moved here (from CSU Jerome’s campus) in 1992, we only had, what, four buildings? This building (Kellogg Library), Commons, Academical Hall, Science Hall. That was it. That was it. It was just fine. It was nice. Now to see where we are, even though in, you know, in (inaudible) there was, uh, something called, “in twenty-five years Cal State San Marcos is supposed to have grown to have up to 25,000 students.” Well, for different reasons that didn't happen. Economy and whatnot and whatnot. But for me, I like the fact that it has grown. So my kids can go to the schools where they went to. Richland (Elementary School), Woodland (Park Middle School), Mission Hills (High School). But those things, well Mission (High School) was not there. I mean, all the growth for me to be able, instead of going (to) San Diego State to be able to finish in San Marcos, I had benefited a lot to be part of it. I mean, extra lucky to be working in here instead of San Diego or moving to other kinds of states or other cities. San Marcos in general, as a community, as a university, gave me life. Life. Do you know, life? Life. It gave me life. So for me, it's beyond, I'm beyond grateful for the impact that Cal State San Marcos. The fact that Cal State San Marcos, when it came time, the place, were everything, I raised three kids in San Marcos who all three of 'em went to like, oh, I told you Richland, Woodland, and then went to college. None of them came here (CSUSM) ‘cause Daddy works here (laughs). So they had to go to different states. But, um, but they knew where, what my expectations of them, they knew they were part of, I was part of this. And they knew they were not just going to finish high school and not go to college. So they all did at least their four, the four-year degree. So for me, it is life. My experience, the people that I come to know here at the university, the faculty, staff, students, it gave me life. I'm telling you, I don't know where I would've been if it wasn’t for Cal State San Marcos. And the whole general San Marcos, the whole area. So I'm very, very grateful. Stanley: That's, that's incredible. Um, yeah, it's just, it's almost like a, it's become like a campus town at this point now. Berhane: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I mean, when I was a student, there was no parking fees or anything (laughs). Now I have (to) pay, like an hour. You pay my job, just leave me (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. There's a train that runs along now. Berhane: That's a different story (laughs). That's a different story, man. Stanley: Getting back, uh, as we're winding down, um, I know that you had, you were involved with the Black Student Union and Black Student Center. How would would you say that pro, those programs and that, what's the word, uh, correlates or stacks up against the Cross-Cultural Center? I'd say, so. Berhane: Um, I think what, you know, during time, with time you have to identify all the different things that you need, who needs what. And so, I don't know, I don't wanna compare or compete or anything as, you know, not just a Black Student Center, not just a Latino Center, not just a Women's Center or a Native American Center. It's more they all have their own individual roles to play in the, in, in, you know, in this community. So, Black Student Center was a necessary department, was a necessary service, a necessary center to have on campus. If we are going to have specific groups feeling welcomed and that they have a space on campus. With Multicultural Programs its good, when multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-gender, or whatever you call it, in name. It-- but they're able to come and use that as a center for that. But I think people feel comfortable where they feel they belong to. Just like the student organizations. When I was a student, when I see a sociology club, accounting club, Latino club, well, I wanted to have the Black Student Club. So I was part of a Black student club. Uh, we were calling it African American or African Student Organization, African, all kinds of stuff, trying to say we have something that belongs to us. So for me, it's not like in comparison to other centers, it was necessary to have a center for the Black students to feel comfortable enough to go there. And so for us, again, as advocates for services to different interests of different student groups, to have that implemented and to see that while I was a student, I while I was an employee here, was a great thing. I was always involved like I say from day one, whether since starting a student organization, once I became a staff (employee designation), we have the Black Faculty and Staff Association. I've been part of that (inaudible) since day one. When we graduated in 1992, I became one of the board members with the Alumni Association, starting Alumni Association I can say I've been part of a lot of starting things because I think the need, the need is there and if I'm able to help on engage(ment), why not? So I as, as someone who was active as a student, once I graduated, I was also pulled to help start the Alumni Association. And so I think, you know, in trying to answer your question, it's not really in competition or one over the other or against the other. It's more providing services to the different populations, different groups with different interests that we have on campus. Stanley: Uh, yeah, perhaps I worded that a little wrong. You touched on this before, but what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center play as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces like you named before? Berhane: I think it requires an understanding of what its mission is, an understanding. So if I'm coming as a student, new student coming to campus, I'm a Black student. I'm not going to ask for multicultural programs where, you know, “Where is a multicultural program?” I'm gonna ask, where is a Black Student Center? If I'm going to join a student organization, I'm either going to ask for something related to my major or something related to my identity. And so, multicultural, Cross-Cultural Center, the definition of it needs to be clear to people from day one at orientation. Okay? And so, yes, it does have a mission. Yes, it does have a purpose to be here on campus to serve, but is it serving the group of people who don't have a center already? Or is it bringing all the centers together? And so, uh, reexamination of the whole purpose of Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center might be necessary at some point to say, “Who am I serving?” Okay? Because you have Latino Center here, Women's Center, gender, you know, gender and Black Student Center, there may be a need to really qualify, “Why should I go there?” Even though I know I'm familiar with it. But if I am a newcomer, what am I gonna look for? It does serve a population that doesn't, that doesn't fit any of the other ones (other centers). But what extent do they understand it? To what extent are they familiar and aware of this service and this center? Stanley: I guess the same thing I ask as a longtime CSUSM (staff and administrative) member and student of CSUSM, what advice would you give the Cross-Cultural Center to be more inclusive and, and get those people who are outside of the lines of the Latin( /x) Center, or the Black (Student) Center? Berhane: I don't know if, uh, Floyd (Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time of the interview’s recording) will need my advice. I'm sure he, he is very familiar with what he's doing and what, you know, what he sees all the different centers around him, and he works very closely with the student centers and stuff. So they don't really need my advice. But I think, you know, always doesn't hurt to go back and look at who is, who is being engaged here? Who is our population? Who is the most frequently arrival here in relation to-- So if I were to look back at who the most popular, what population used to be there... more often it is more of the Asian population. Okay. So the Asian population probably don't have any other location, but the Multicultural Programs (Cross-Cultural Center). Because we, I'm being honest, this Black Student center, Latino Center, Indian Center, there's an argument there should be a White center too. But (laughs), that's a different story. But I think the thing is, you know, a lot of, we’ve got to go back and take a look at the purpose of this center. Are we serving the population that we were formed to serve and continually revise. Take, you know, take notes of all the people who have come to you on a daily basis and see if we are missing anybody. If we are missing anybody, the best place to meet them is at orientation. When they all come in on campus with their families and you know, tell them where all the different services are, make that as a, you know, make it as an effort. I used to do recruitment too even when I was a student assistant. Students who heard me talk about “Cal State Marcos will offer you this, this, and that.” Once they come to Cal State San Marcos, if they experience the things that I told them ; Cal State San Marcos will serve you, they (the students) would remember that and say, “I'm so glad that you said that. I am glad I heard you say that.” And I can see, and really, I use that and it's helped, it has helped me. I really appreciate that. So, we need to be able to impact students from the day one, what kind of services we are providing for them and why they should come to our department, why they should come to our service, why they should come to my class, why they should do those things at the orientation, at wherever they are at the beginning. And so, identify your population, identifying all the different services you can provide, as much as you can provide. You don't expect someone, uh, search you and come to your office. They're not, they're not gonna come, unless they hear you say something, something. Stanley: So, yes. So to, to uh, summarize, make people aware of the program. Make sure that you know who you're serving and that, why they should come there. Berhane: Yes. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I mean, people need to know. A lot of people if they, if you don't know it, you don't know it, you're not going to go and search for it. You haven't heard anybody talking about it. So even though it may be available in your fingertips, this is different. Maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm more like from person to person, but for me, the only way people can come to (the services) is (if) they're aware of it. So make it aware and be clear about what services you're providing and where you are located, what your hours are, your phone number and blah blah. And have 'em (students) come. And it, again, it doesn't have to be limited to orientation or one area or this and that. Could be classrooms. It could be announcements, it could be a lot of things. But make sure that, you know, you are known on campus for providing services that all students need or specific students need. Stanley: All right. Well I really appreciate you coming. I'm gonna end the recording now. Berhane: Well, thank you. Uh, let me say thank you, uh, Seth, for this opportunity. And I say I'm grateful that you invited me and that I'm a part of this. I hope I have given you what I know a little bit, but I really appreciate this opportunity and thank you very much as well. Stanley: I enjoyed the conversation as well. Ending the recording now. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Berhane, Gezai. Interview March 29th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-37 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Greek life California State University San Marcos. Student Activities Refugees -- Eritrea Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-29 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gezai Berhane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Eritrea San Marcos, (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gezai Berhane Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Immigrant experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bonnie Biggs OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024. SC027-055 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Tribal libraries--Southern California ; Tribal libraries--New Mexico ; Libraries--Ghana ; Love on a Leash ; Patterson, Lotsee ; American Indian Library Association ; California Indians ; Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 ; Jazz-Ghana ; Jazz musicians--Ghana ; California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison ; California State University San Marcos. University Library Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Judith Downie audio 1.0:|21(7)|41(9)|69(10)|94(12)|108(12)|138(11)|153(11)|167(16)|191(5)|206(5)|227(12)|244(14)|265(3)|299(15)|331(9)|346(12)|382(8)|401(11)|419(15)|431(7)|443(9)|466(6)|501(6)|528(4)|544(6)|558(5)|582(12)|612(3)|650(16)|673(5)|687(14)|710(5)|728(16)|743(16)|763(3)|777(5)|806(3)|820(8)|833(10)|857(14)|884(10)|915(9)|938(8)|966(10)|1006(17)|1032(3)|1054(6)|1094(6)|1140(5)|1162(11)|1188(3)|1217(14)|1251(2)|1279(7)|1320(8)|1347(14)|1364(4)|1375(12)|1394(10)|1431(7)|1463(6)|1489(6)|1514(3)|1530(15)|1544(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/61a0275718a0293965abb1d4b9d1ca5e.m4a Other audio English 0 Introduction and educational backgrounds Oral history interview with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs, March 26, 2024. Interview by Judith Downie, Special Collections Librarian at CSUSM. &#13 ; &#13 ; Bonnie Biggs and Gunnar Biggs discuss their educational backgrounds and how they met. 0 160 Early professional and CSUSM history Bonnie Biggs recalls working as a public librarian in Encinitas and Solana Beach while gaining her Master's from USC. After this, she began working as an academic librarian at the SDSU North County satellite campus that would become CSUSM in 1989. Biggs recalls the various professional relationships she cultivated, and the "chaos" in transitioning SDSU to CSUSM. 0 1024 County and Tribal library cooperation In this segment, Bonnie Biggs discusses her role in facilitating cooperation between the San Diego County and Tribal libraries after the dissolution of their working relationship. This included American Indian culture fairs before the establishment of Powwows at CSUSM and most importantly gaining the trust of local Indigenous communities. In the end of this segment, Biggs and Judith Downey discuss the importance of archives in preserving, documenting, and maintaining valuable historical information. 0 1392 Powwows Before powwows were sanctioned at CSUSM, there were American Indian culture fairs. Bonnie Biggs briefly explains the necessities and process of facilitating these social gatherings for Indigenous American communities. Biggs also discusses meeting "Uncle" Henry Rodriguez, a Luiseño elder, culture bearer, and water rights activist who was a crucial to CSUSM in building the university's relationships with local tribes. 0 1759 Tenure and second sabbatical Regarding her second sabbatical, Bonnie Biggs shares her experience working with the Pueblo peoples in New Mexico. She recalls how she met her mentor Dr. Lotsee Patterson (Comanche), founder of the American Indian Library Association, who was instrumental for securing the trust of Tribal communities, and access to Tribal libraries. 0 2057 Academic Senate and Tribal Liaison This segment covers the time Bonnie Biggs served aboard the Academic Senate as vice chair for four years. Biggs shares that she chose not to serve as chair, despite being elected, and instead accepted President Karen Haynes's request to serve as the university's inaugural Tribal Liaison. Biggs considers this one of her most important accomplishments as she was able to build a trusting relationship between CSUSM and tribal communities in Southern California. Biggs also discussed founding the Native Advisory Council alongside Wendy Schlater (Luiseño). 0 2485 Therapy dogs Regarding other "firsts" at CSUSM, Bonnie recalls bringing therapy dogs to campus, and how helpful they are to not only students but staff, faculty, and administrators. A brief segment, Downey transitions to then speaking about Biggs's first sabbatical. 0 2568 First sabbatical in Ghana Narrator Downey circles back to Bonnie Biggs's first sabbatical in Ghana. Both Gunnar and Bonnie Biggs recall working with Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM and Director of the National Theater of Ghana. Gunnar recalls his experience sharing jazz knowledge as well as learning Ghanian drumming, while Bonnie recounts going on national radio to speak about the similarities between indigenous libraries in Ghana and tribal libraries in the USA. 0 2980 Additional CSU accomplishments Bonnie Biggs shares some of her other accomplishments at the CSU level, including work with the American Library Association. Bonnie once again discusses therapy dogs, through her work with Love on a Leash, as well as her continued work with the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center at CSUSM. Finally, Bonnie and Gunnar share their culminating statements regarding their appreciation for CSUSM. 0 Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Downie: All right, so we are now running. Okay. So, this is Judith Downie, curator of the Brewchive® (archive dedicated to preserving the history of the craft brewing industry in San Diego, CA) and History Librarian and Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs to talk about Bonnie and Gunnar's history of Cal State San Marcos and other related pieces of their lives. So, I'm, this picks up pretty well. So we shouldn't have-- Bonnie Biggs: Oh, it does. Okay. You want me to sit down? Downie: Well, or let's see. We can maybe put it between the two of you. Okay. You know, because whatever I say, I'll just say it loudly. B Biggs: Oh, okay. Downie: So, yeah, again, this will be Bonnie for the most part, but Gunnar will certainly be jumping in with memory jogs and his personal recollections as well. So, let's start off with Bonnie, your personal history. Where-- B Biggs: Okay. Downie: Where did you grow up and some background on your education. B Biggs: Okay. I grew up not far from you (referring to Downie ; laughs). I grew up in Vista, California and went to Vista High School. Then I went on to Palomar College, got an AA (Associate in Arts) degree, went to San Diego State, got a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in British Literature after the 1800s. And then onto USC (University of Southern California) for my Master's in Library Science. Downie: Okay. Gunnar, how about you? Gunnar Biggs: Oh. Downie: Where did you grow up, and your education? G Biggs: I grew up in San Diego, California, about a block from San Diego State (University ; SDSU). My father was a faculty member in the music department there. And from there I went to North Texas State University in Denton, Texas for a couple of years. Then I took a twenty-year gap, going on the road playing music. And I came back and I got my bachelor's at Cal State San Marcos in Ethnic Studies and Global Arts, after completing my general ed(ucation) at Palomar College. And that's, yeah, that's about it in terms of my education. Downie: Okay. And so where did the two of you meet? B Biggs: Jazz Club. G Biggs: It was the Hyatt Islandia on Mission Bay. (laughs) Downie: Gunnar’s got the details. (Laughs) B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend take me to, to hear the French horn player. They usually don't play jazz, and this phenomenal famous piano player, but I liked the bass player. G Biggs: Which is very unusual (laughter) for the bass player to get the nod, you know? B Biggs: Yeah. So that's, and that was in 1981. Downie: Alright. So, let's move on to your professional history, Bonnie. I've sketched out a timeline from what I know, but of course I can be imperfect. So, we'll start with, I know you worked in public libraries-- B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Before you moved into the academic library field. B Biggs: Yeah. I started my career at the Encinitas Library. Not the one we see now, the big beautiful one (snapping noise). But on that same site in 1973, and I worked there for nine years. And then I was moved to Solana Beach to become the branch manager for four years. And during that time, met him (Gunnar) and started going to grad school up at USC while I managed the Solana Beach Library. And when I got my master's I started looking around, and that's when I found SDSU North County. (I) was looking for a library (overlapping dialogue). Downie: So, what year would that have been? B Biggs: The SDSU North County? I would've started in 1986. Downie: Okay. B Biggs: And we were-- Downie: That was long after they had established that satellite campus (SDSU North Couty satellite campus that officially became CSUSM in 1989). B Biggs: Right. I think it had been around, I think since the late seventies. I'm sure you've got history in the (overlapping dialogue) archives. Downie: Limited history, limited history. I think it's mostly at San Diego State. B Biggs: Yeah. So, it was San Diego State North County, and I was the librarian, and under the wonderful Dick Rush (CSUSM's first executive vice president). Whom we (Bonnie and Gunnar) just saw a couple weeks ago, had lunch with him. And what was interesting, he was less interested in my librarianship as my arts and lectures chops, because I had been doing music and a lot of outreach in the public library system. And he wanted to get San Diego State North County out to the community. We were in Jerome's (furniture store in San Marcos) parking lot, right. So we started having concerts, thanks to Gunnar. We got amazing musicians and put on festivals and, you know, Mexican fiestas and jazz con- you know, jazz. It was like a festival, actually-- G Biggs: It was a jazz festival. B Biggs: So, so we started doing that. And then of course, I had to be a librarian too. That was always the thing. I had to do both. And that carried over when we (SDSU North County satellite campus) became Cal State San Marcos. Downie: So then you were at San Diego State North County while it was still in Vista (California). B Biggs: It wasn't in Vista at that time, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. It was, it had just started in San Marcos. But I know where that campus was. It was in the old Vista High, where I went to high school. So by ‘86 when I started, they had already moved into the Jerome's lot (building used for the campus that later became that furniture store). Downie: Oh, okay. That’s all very fuzzy in our records, so I've never been too sure. So that helps clarify that. B Biggs: Sandy Punch (retired CSUSM administrator) might be a good one to talk to. In fact, I have lunch with her this month. Yeah. Downie: Tell her I'm hunting for her. (laughs) B Biggs: I will, I'll do that. She'll love it. Downie: Okay. So, you were there for the transition- B Biggs: Oh, boy. Downie: To San Diego State North County. So, you never actually worked at San Diego State Libraries? B Biggs: No, San Diego State North County only. But I will tell you there, there were a couple of librarians at the main campus who were my mentors and who helped me make that transition, because it's a different world and- Downie: From public to academic. B Biggs: Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Philip White comes to mind. He was a very, very good friend. And he even came up a couple of times. Just having to do with working with faculty, developing the collection. The trick was the faculty was changing because they were starting to phase out North Count-- Well, they were solid for a while, but we were bringing in Cal State San Marcos faculty. So at one point I was reporting to two deans. When they hired Marion (Reid), she became my dean of the library. But I also was reporting kind of to Pat Huckle, who was the dean of San Diego State North County. Whom we just saw last week. We took her to lunch. So I stay in touch with these wonderful leaders that I got to, to work with. Downie: Okay, so you didn't have to move San Diego State North County or CSUSM to the Valecito site, Jerome's (Bonnie affirms) West, as we all call it. Because it had already moved. But what sorts of, I mean, you were answering to two deans (Bonnie affirms) at the very least. But there must have been other challenges and opportunities in this whole transition from being a satellite of San Diego State University to its own freestanding Cal State San Marcos. So, what do you remember of that? B Biggs: I remember that it, I didn't know that much about academic politics at the time, but I remember there was a lot of it. And (I) started to figure out what the landscape was and just treaded very carefully, made friends with a lot of the faculty. David Whitehorse comes to mind, he’s one of my best friends there. He was San Diego State North County. And then beginning to get to know the founding faculty at Cal State (San Marcos). I remember there was a part of us at San Diego State North County who didn't want the change. We were thrilled that the state wanted to have this new university. We just had a nice little comfy warm tight-knit organization. And so, it was chaos for a while. And bringing Bill Stacy (founding president, CSUSM) on, luckily he and Dick Rush got along pretty well. As they also transitioned from one to the other. G Biggs: Didn't they fast track the change over? It was, it happened before people had-- B Biggs: Very quick. G Biggs: --predicted. It was one day they were a satellite, and the next day they said, “We're about to move to the new campus as soon as it builds in.” You know, so. B Biggs: I'm trying to think who the governor was at the time that came down. G Biggs: Yeah. It was like, it was a governor's decision to go-- B Biggs: And signed the paperwork. Downie: Was that (George) Deukmejian? (laughs) B Biggs: It wasn't, no. Wasn't (Bill) Craven. I mean, it was, was it a senator? Anyway, some, some, I have a photo in one of these somewhere of-- Downie: Well, we have a signed certificate, I think from (Governor) Gray Davis. B Biggs: That might, that was probably it. Yeah. Yeah. He would've been the governor then. Yeah. So, that was when things got a little bit strange because we started to phase things out at North County and move. And that's when we took over the other building across the street. And the library moved into that space. Marion coming from, 'cause there, there's a question here (laughs). How, you know, she didn't know what to call me or what to offer me as a position because, to have called me Assistant Dean, that implies tenure and, you know, academic credit that far exceeded what I had at the time. I was just, you know, a public librarian learning to be. So she, but generously, I think it was generous, she gave me the title of Assistant to the Dean. And of course I was that. I assisted her on many things, head of, then it became Head of Public Services, or (unintelligible), it was called Coordinator for Public Services. They call it patron, is it now, it's not public services-- Downie: User services, (overlapping) what we call it. B Biggs: User services, I like that. Yeah. And then later Arts and Lectures (curriculum-linked events produced by CSUSM College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences). So there, there I had one business card with three titles on it, which I think a lot of people did at that new university. Downie: Yeah. We all had to do a variety of jobs. And we were not in the, centralized or no, I forget what the term is, but where you just kind of did things. It got done, it got taken care of, and it's gotten so much structure-- B Biggs: Crossing lines-- Downie: Permissions and paying for everything. Where it used to just be, it got done and somebody covered the cost. (Bonnie affirms). But it does seem like there would've been a lot of long hours and obviously confusion as to lines of responsibility, but it got worked out. B Biggs: It really did. Downie: Seems like. B Biggs: And luckily, on one end, we had Dick Rush who, I got to tell him at lunch a couple weeks ago, what a wonderful leader he was. He constantly took time out, when we didn't even have time to go to the bathroom or breathe and gather us around his desk or somewhere in the library, and just let us know how wonderful we were and how much our work was appreciated. And what that does, you know, it gives you a shot in the arm and you just keep going. And Pat Huckle was the one, again my other dean saying, “Bonnie, at the end of the day, it's just gonna be a dead librarian if we keep this up.” (Gunnar laughs) Meaning she got--I told her about that the other day. (Laughs) It, she gave me the permission to place some limits in my ability to do all the stuff we were required to do. We were thought to be doing. And I don't know that that slowed me down a whole lot, but-- Downie: Probably not. B Biggs: Yeah. G Biggs: Well, Dick, Dick told you the library is the heart of a university. (Bonnnie affirms). So that's where he came from. Initially it was like, build this library and you will have a successful university. So that kind of put the weight on your shoulders. (Bonnie affirms). “Okay, I gotta build the heart.” B Biggs: And the fact that he wanted the arts made such a difference in that tiny little Jerome's library, bringing the principal brass of the San Diego Symphony because of his (Gunnar) connections, for a concert. And Peter Sprague (jazz guitarist) out in the parking lot. It just, it put us on the map, in a tiny way. Because people saw, that there, there actually was a campus there kind of (laughs). Downie: Yeah. So even years later, I was at a conference and somebody said, “Oh, San Diego State North County.” I'm like, “No, we haven't been that for a number of years, thank you very much.” B Biggs: Yes, yes, yes. (laughs). Downie: But you know, if you're not right there in the thick of it, you didn’t realize-- B BIggs: It was 1989 when I think, I mean, that's a date that really sticks out, I had been there three years. And 1989 was when we were signed-- Downie: When Bill Stacy came in and-- B Biggs: Right. Downie: Brought in the founding faculty and-- B Biggs: Right. And that's-- (overlapping dialogue) Downie: --things started really changing. B Biggs: Have you gotten all the founding faculty? I'm assuming you've-- Downie: Marion got oral histories from-- B Biggs: Oh, good. Downie: --I think everybody, and it would be nice to go back to some of them and, get a looking back now, what you saw then versus what you're, what you’ve-- B Biggs: In retrospect. (overlapping dialogue) What, yeah. Downie: In retrospect view of that, that could be extremely interesting. But so, you were there to move into the permanent campus on Twin Oaks Valley Road. And that was while I was not on campus. That was during my period of exile, as I call it, after I got my master's. And I went down to United States International University. So that's, there's a chunk of campus history that I didn't personally experience-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: How long were you-- Downie: I was there eighteen months. B Biggs: At, at USIU. Downie: Yeah. B Biggs: Okay, yeah. Downie: And so, and of course-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: I forgot that. Downie: --being that the position I was in as a staff person when I left, I was not involved in planning or any of that sort of thing. (Bonnie affirms), I'm sure you were, I know Marion certainly was. Way-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: Oh yeah. Way deep. (overlapping dialogue) Downie: Way, deep, deep, deep into it. But you certainly had a lot of input as well. So, what do you remember about running up to moving onto the permanent campus at Twin Oaks Valley (Road) and then the move? Other than we had to borrow book carts from everybody, every library in the county. B Biggs: Yes. I remember that. Of course, Marion was much more in charge of that and involved. I think I was doing more hands-on and working with a few staff. We had to fill those book carts and get things moved into the library. I will say a major memory of that was that we were not invited to the groundbreaking. I just have to go on record to say that. And there were many people who had been doing that kind of work, high level work. You know, like Marion, she was there. But those of us who helped build the foundation of that university--San Diego State North County--were not invited to the groundbreaking. So that, that's something that's one of the few bitter kind of, “Really?” (Downie affirms) Kind of thing. Maybe Dick was, yeah, I'm sure he went because he had transitioned-- G Biggs: There's a picture, there's of all the shovel people-- B Biggs: All the shovels. No (San Diego State) North County people. So that was interesting. (Downie affirms) And it is kind of a blur. I mean, all of the nuts and bolts and physical work. I just remember it being a lot of physical hard work, getting--Marion probably was up here (referring to planning and coordination of the campus move) more than, you know, the moving of the materials. And-- G Biggs: They got somebody local that had a moving company to help move the collection, box them up-- B Biggs: And I, I think Jim Hanson may have helped. G Biggs: Jim Hanson was on there, but I forget who it was that had trucks. He had a moving company, right? B Biggs: I don't remember that. Downie: Well, they were, they were flatbed trucks with board sides, and we had all those book trucks. And the day we moved the collection, it was raining. So we had to wrap all the book trucks in plastic-- B Biggs: I remember that now. Downie: To move them into Craven Hall, which is now the Administration Building. B Biggs: Right. Downie: And then of course, the ceiling was leaking, even though the books were on the fourth floor, we didn't have our shelving yet. So, the books were sitting on the floor. (laughs) B Biggs: You have more memories of that-- G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: --than I do. That's interesting. I, yeah. Downie: Well, again, you had other responsibilities that you were running the arts programs and, (Bonnie affirms) you know, everything. And (overlapping dialogue) areas of responsibility. B Biggs: And all the Indian stuff had started by then too because, you know Whitehorse, the way it started was David Whitehorse (School of Education Emeritus faculty) walked into my office. He was standing as State North County faculty and said, “The plan of cooperation between the county library system and the tribes is dissolving, they’re--what can you do about it?” Like, “How do I (Biggs) know what to do about it?” (Downie laughs). So, I had started going out and working with the tribes at that point. We had American Indian Storytellings-- G Biggs: Storytelling. B Biggs: --we had the American Indian culture--we couldn't call it a powow--culture fair, inside and over at the Red Barn (Williams Barn, San Marcos, California). So I was kind of doing a lot of that stuff at the same time. That's why I don't have really clear memories of the actual movement of the books. But-- G Biggs: That’s where you met Uncle Henry (Rodriguez ; Native American water rights activist ; instrumental in preserving indigenous California culture) was at the, at the storytellings. B Biggs: Yeah. He was, yes. G Biggs: I see that down there, yeah. Downie: So that really kind of segues beautifully into the next session, which is your work with the local tribes, the California tribal libraries. So, how did you actually become interested in this particular part of our population? B Biggs: Yeah. Well, David Whitehorse told me I had to (combined laughter). I mean, when he said, when I looked at the plan of cooperation it was a plan, very loose plan that the San Diego County Library system, which is thirty-three branches from Otay Mesa to Fallbrook. And the system I came from, they had a plan of cooperation. It just meant that they would do some interlibrary loan and maybe occasionally go out and help, you know, people with collection development. But it all of a sudden was dissolving. And so, I'm trying to think of the timing. It was at a time, one of those times when the budget was going to hell in California. So, they were pulling funding back and staffing ability to go out and even do the little bit that they were doing. So, David wanted to know what I was gonna do about it. So, I did start going out to some of the local libraries: Pala, Rincon, Pauma, La Jolla, San Pasquale, just the local, the most local (to North County San Diego), not south. There were no casinos for many years until after I started working with them (California tribal libraries). So, it was more just about getting an assessment of who had what. Some of them had combination museums and libraries, which is not uncommon on most tribal land. So, I just started developing. I would say, and I tell people this, it took seven years to get totally trusted and implanted into the culture. You don't just go out and say, “Hi, I'm a white librarian, I'm gonna help you out.” (Laughs) It really did take years and years and years. But doing things like “Prez to the Rez,” taking the (university) presidents out there developing tribal communities, task forces, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that, it was that kind of stuff that gained the trust of the tribal communities. And the big part of that, ultimately, first it was, do something because the library system is abandoning them. But the more important thing was we need to get these Indian students to the university to trust coming to a university. Lots of history on that, you know, with what we did to native people in boarding schools. So, it really did take a long time to gain the trust, and the numbers show now that our native population at the university is one of the highest, last I looked, in all the CSUs (California State Universities). So, and we were the first to have a tribal liaison. And it was Tish (Tishmall Turner). No, it wasn’t (laughs). You saw that. That was a-- Downie: Well, this is a problem with a lot of the firsts that we've done on the campus is nobody stopped to think, this is the first we need, we need to record this somewhere. And responsibilities have moved from department to department. From unit to unit. Across. And then we've had changes in presidents, changes in everything. B Biggs: Deans and-- Downie: So after a while, yes, it gets lost. B Biggs: That's why archives are so, I mean seriously, it's so important, especially with a university this young. You got, I'm glad Jen (Fabbi) is moving there (to CSUSM’s Special Collections). I mean, you need all the help you can get, and you've got an opportunity before it gets too far down the road to capture all this amazing history. Downie: Cause we've already lost some very key players. That, you know, you can't go and interview them now. Unfortunately. B Biggs: No. No, I know. Downie: So, yeah. So it's become, becoming more critical all the time. B Biggs: Yeah. Did somebody, I'm sure they did. They must have interviewed Dick Rush at some point. So-- Downie: Nobody's interviewed Dick Rush yet. B Biggs: Wow. Downie: Yeah. No, we, we have his papers. I mean, he doc-- B Biggs: He did. That's right. Downie: We have more paper from Dick Rush in boxes in Special Collections than from anybody else. G Biggs: Do you (Bonnie) still have your yellow legal pad thing where Dick had (overlapping dialogue) bullets for what, what he wanted you to do? Handwritten. B Biggs: We’ll have to find that. But, you know, we're gonna go up mid-April, just for a two-night trip for our anniversary, our fortieth anniversary. And we're gonna see Dick probably, we'll probably stop in Camarillo (city in California). And should I ask him if he is interested in being interviewed? Downie: Yeah, please. B Biggs: Okay. That would, wow. I mean, because beyond those boxes, this is somebody-- Downie: Oh, there's so much more. B Biggs: Somebody who really, really knows the story. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, because he was there from ground zero, basically. B Biggs: He was a British literature professor at (Downie laughs) San Diego State. Downie: Those Brit Lit people, I tell you. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Downie: So I know that you have mentioned to me over time that you went, you know, when you were first working with the tribal libraries, that you would go to tribal councils and you would just sit there and just listen. (Bonnie affirms) And, you know, speak when you were spoken to or invited to speak, things like that. But where did you meet Uncle Henry (Rodriguez)? B Biggs: I think at a powwow (a social gathering celebrating Indigenous American culture). G Biggs: Or a, well, there's a picture of him at the Red Barn with Lee Dixon (Pauma Band of Mission Indians). And- B Biggs: So it would've been the American Indian-- G Biggs: Find that picture-- B Biggs: --culture fair, we couldn't have powwows yet. And David (Whitehorse) helped organize those. So that was when we were still San Diego State North County. And he (Rodriguez) was always invited as an elder to give the blessing. And he did that for us until the day he died. But commencements and powwows, so met him there. I'm trying to think how I got close to him. Just got close to him. Downie: He was a very astute man. (Bonnie affirms) He probably saw your empathy and connection. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And he knew I was working with the tribal libraries. I'd come, I'd go to the La Jolla Reservation, which is way up Palomar Mountain. They had like a room with- so many of these libraries all around the country, really. Or a couple of shelves of books. One of them at Manzanita (Reservation of the Manzanita Band of the Kumeyaay Nation), I think was a bookshelf in a fire department. That was their library, you know, and people took me in and said, “Here's our library.” And yeah. So, Henry (Rodriguez) knew I was doing that work, and yeah. He knew I--to say in Luiseño, I had a good heart, I guess is. Downie: Okay. And you've already talked about bringing the powwow to campus, but it was the American Cultural Fair. Before the American Indian Cultural Fair. Before it was actually a powwow. What were the mechanisms by where it could become a powwow? B Biggs: Yeah. It had to be, of course outside, and with a number of different things, different dancers, different singers. Bird songs are important for local culture. So it, you saw a couple of them, I'm sure. It's huge. It's not something that you hold inside. So the parameters are really about dancers and music and a processional. So Henry (Rodriguez) would often, with me and Whitehorse, lead the procession. There's a blessing of the field. So, probably an Indian person could tell you more what the specifics were you, you would have a--what was Randy Edmonds (American Indian Tribal Leader)? Barry, what was Randy Edmonds? G Biggs: Randy Edmonds was the MC. B Biggs: He was the master of ceremony. So, so- Downie: Randy’s last name? B Biggs: Randy Edmonds. Downie: Edmonds. B Biggs: And he's still alive. I just heard something about him the other day. So, there were just a whole bunch of things. The idea of the American Indian Culture Fair was to at least get people used to it. So there would be a prayer and a blessing at a table. Got pictures of that stuff going with Henry. But, and I think they could do like a few small bird songs and maybe a little, you know, dances. But, they would have booths. And it was just a mini powwow is the best way to describe it. Powwow didn't happen till we moved to the campus. And we had that lower field, which I think is soccer now. Downie: It's used a lot for soccer, but I think it could be used for other sports as well. Yeah, it's right down there at the, on the corner of the entrance on Twin Oak Valley Road. B Biggs: Right. We always drive by when I'm on campus, “There's the powwow field.” That was huge. And I don't know if you know there's an Indian store over here (referencing a picture). They just closed or they're moving this. Downie: Oh, they closed. B Biggs: Yeah, but we were in there and recently just to help with any, you know, buying things. And the guy said, I said, “Do you remember me? I,” and he goes, “Oh yeah. Was (referring to the CSUSM American Indian Cultural Fair) the best organized powwow ever.” Because they went to all the tribes. Downie: Oh, I'm sure they did. B Biggs: I said, “It's because a librarian organized it.” (laughter ; overlapping dialogue) Librarians-- Downie( Exactly. You put a librarian on it, it's gonna be organized. B Biggs: I know. He was. Yeah. So, they were always there and selling things. What were you trying to- G Biggs: I was trying to find that picture of the lineup. B Biggs: The perfect processional, yeah. G Biggs: Lee Dixon, who's passed away. Jane Dumas. David Whitehorse, Uncle Henry. You (Bonnie Biggs) and somebody else, they're all lined up. But that was in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Downie: We have a few pictures of the Cultural Fair, what was going on in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: And-- G Biggs: Yeah, Randy Edmonds charged me with carrying Carol Bonomo (CSUSM Administrator Emeritus) out of the arena. They had just smudged blessed the arena, and you weren't, you weren't to enter the arena after that. And Carol comes across there and Randy goes, “Go get her and get her out of there.” So, I had to pick up Carol and-- B Biggs: Small, she's small. (overlapping dialogue ; laughter) G Biggs: I know. And carry her out the arena, kicking and screaming. She tells that story all the time. B Biggs: All the time. Yeah. She loves that story. G Biggs: And I said, “It's not me! I was told to do this, so I do this.” B Biggs: (laughs) It was, yeah. G Biggs: But there's certain protocols for the, like that. You don't enter the arena after it's been blessed and stuff like that. B Biggs: And I don't, I can't even remember how many years it went on, but after many years I think I was starting to think about retirement, but the students took over. Downie: Yeah, the American Indian Student Alliance. B Biggs: And it didn’t-- Downie: They did it, I think, for two years. And then being that the student population changes, you don't have the continuity that you have-- B Biggs: Exactly. Downie: --of actual employed staff and faculty to lead something. I mean, I've seen that happen so many times with the student organizations. They'll be there for a year or so, and then the person who was excited and found it, graduates. Good for them. Yes. But then they haven't developed a line of succession either. (Bonnie affirms) And then something else will pop up. But-- B Biggs: Yeah, that was unfortunate. And people were sad about it. And I think right after that, either I was going up for tenure--that's what it was, Whitehorse and I finally said, “You know, we better do this tenure thing.” And so suddenly I started publishing, you know, in a flying hurry. I'd done some, and then that's what it was. Yeah, we both had to step down. Downie: Tenure becomes quite the time suck. B Biggs: I'll never forget Dick (Rush) telling me, because I was just being a librarian, I didn't understand the whole, again because I wasn't really part of yet of the faculty. Downie: Well, we didn't have a faculty mentorship program that we do now. There was really, you were just doing what had to be done. And hopefully somebody told you. B Biggs: All of sudden, oh, you're supposed to write about this. Okay. And that was another thing, is doing all of the publications I did, all had to do with tribal libraries. You have to be careful, you know, and respectful, and vet things. And so that was, that sort of added to the lengths of time to get things done. Downie: And so, as part of your scholarly work of course, was the California Tribal Library Survey, which that was, was on a sabbatical, right? B Biggs: You know, the, the strange thing was the first sabbatical was Africa, right after I got tenure. And then the State Library of California paid my--paid the university, gave Marion money to cover me while I did that survey. The second actual one was going around and doing the New Mexico Pueblos. So that was my sabbatical. The second one. Yeah, the first one was right, you know right after you get tenure, you get a sabbatical. That was Africa. And-- Downie: Well, now you can apply for a sabbatical and hope you get one. (laughs) B Biggs: Hope you get one. Exactly. And the, and the second one, and I'm trying to remember how long afterwards that was. G Biggs: What, Africa? Downie: It's usually (overlapping dialogue) every six years-- B Biggs: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And then, but the, the census and needs assessment for the State Library of California was just a thing that they asked me to do because I'd become involved in, so that took us all the way up to a sheet. Yeah. So-- Downie: And that was 2001, 2002, as it says on the spine, a very fat binder. (laughter) B Biggs: Yes. Of a very fat binder. And he (Gunnar) was on that one. I have no sense of direction. So, Gunnar drove me. Not only there, because a lot of the you know, reservations are really way out there and not very well signed. You see the signages, “Go three rocks up past the, you know, the oak tree and turn left.” Same thing with going around to the Pueblos in New Mexico. And I went on that trip because Lotsee Patterson (librarian and founder of the American Indian Library Association), my mentor, said that the best tribal library system in the country was within the pueblos of New Mexico (referring to the physical establishments of the Pueblo peoples). And that's because she helped guide them along for decades. And it was an amazing trip. Downie: And how did you meet Lotsee? B Biggs: At an AL- AILA, American Indian Library Association meeting. And we rode in a taxi somewhere, and I remember-- G Biggs: Chicago. B Biggs: --remember thinking, “Oh my God, I'm in a taxi with Lotsee Paterson.” (laughter) And she was the most likable, lovable, again, we talked to her just a few weeks ago. She got her materials to Sean (Visintainer ; Head of CSUSM Special Collections) for, yeah. But she's the one, I mean, everything really centers around her. And we just became friends and I guess kind of a, she was kind of a mentor and a not in a real strict way but she, just by way of being around her she was mentoring me. Downie: Well, I think that's a very much cultural way is just simply organically as it happens, you pass your knowledge onto someone else rather than the formal academic environment that you know, we commonly think of. G Biggs: She would take the students on a summer trip to the pueblos. And we would, we tagged along on one of those. So, in desert summer in New Mexico with our dog in the car and everything, but we would go to library to library, and she (Patterson) would know everybody. Down to the tribal policeman that tried to throw us out once, you know. “How's your cousin doing?” And he'd look at her and he'd go, “Oh my goodness, go ahead.” You know. (laughter) But without those kind of inroads, you don't just walk into a-- B Biggs: And she helped me get entre into all of the, all of the Pueblos who are just phenomenal people. Yeah. Downie: Lots of, lots of accomplishments there. So that will bring us onto your other career accomplishments. On campus, I know that you were the first librarian faculty to serve as the Academic Senate chair, which was a pretty big deal because there weren't too many of us librarians (Bonnie affirms). G Biggs: --weren’t Chair though. Downie: Number one (laughs). B Biggs: Right. There weren't, and, but the deal was, this is very strange, and I have to find it. I'd been senate vice chair for maybe four years, and I think by the time Bud Morris (Dr. G.H. “Bud” Morris ; professor of communications and former Academic Senate chair) was ready to step down, I said, “Okay, I will go ahead and do this.” But I stepped out. I didn't, I ended up not serving as chair. And it was because I was getting ready to retire. I think that would've been 2004. And Karen (Haynes ; President of CSUSM 2004 to 2019) had just said to me, “Will you be tribal liaison?” So, I ended up not serving. I think I was the only person who was voted, and also the only person who ever said, “I'm not gonna do it.” And that was, that was a big stink. And even Alex Gonzalez (former CSUSM President 1997-2003) was pissed at me (Gunnar laughs). I hated--didn't care for him. (laughs) But no so I didn't, but I served certainly for, I don't know, fifteen years on the executive committee and then four years as vice chair. Ick. Ick. Downie: That was certainly long enough. But, that's what people had to do. I mean, there weren't that many people to serve in positions. Patty Seleski (CSUSM Professor Emerita) was, what, History Department chair for twelve years? (Bonnie affirms) Because she just said, “I'll take it on, because the junior faculty need to be able to work and get their tenure.” (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: And do their research, and yeah. Exactly. Downie: So, we made sacrifices in some ways. B Biggs: We just talked to Pat (Seleski) last week when we went down. She's almost blind now, but she said that she was senate chair for three years straight. I don't think we've had anyone do that many years straight. Have we? Downie: Somebody recently did do I think two terms. B Biggs: Okay. Downie: But that was when it was one-year terms. Now it's become a two-year term. B Biggs: Has it? Okay. Downie: Glen Brodowsky (CSUSM Marketing Professor) is chair right now. B Biggs: Glen is, and he was always on (academic) senate with me. (overlapping dialogue) I love Glen. Downie: So, but any other firsts that you did? I mean, you certainly started the Arts and Lectures program. You certainly brought, you know, the tribal collaboration and partnerships to campus. But what, what other sorts of things? B Biggs: Firsts? G Biggs: Tribal liaison. Tribal Liaison. B Biggs: Oh, the tribal liaison I think is really important because, there were none anywhere. And so, establishing those relationships in the tribal communities task force, sort of paved the road. You read that history that I corrected that went to Patricia, Patricia (Prado)-Olmos. So, I think that that's probably, if I were to say the one thing I was most proud of, is that we established a position on campus that was about serving native communities. And then now that, I understand that they've got a couple in other CSUs, they have something. Maybe not the exact title at SDSU. And then the UCs (Universities of California) got a couple now. But we didn't have, there wasn't anyone. And yeah, I didn't like the fact that it was forgotten that there was someone who was before Tishmall. But getting Tishmall there as a local Luiseño tribal member was so important. Getting Joely Proudfit (Department Chair and Professor, American Indian Studies Department) to come to campus was, that was amazing. You know we lured her away from CSU San Bernadino, and to get a couple of local tribal people, really what that does is it opens the door for native students. I mean, we started that by having our tribal community task force. We go out to the rez, “Prez to the Rez”. We do things out there to bring people in. Untrusting native students and families started to see that we were a safe place for them to come. But the tribal liaison position, probably I would say, I would think the most important thing that I accomplished. Downie: Would you say, if I remember correctly, San Diego County has more tribes than any other county in California? B Biggs: Federally recognized. Yeah. Downie: Federally recognized. Okay. Would you say that was maybe one of the reasons that we could be the first in that? Because-- B Biggs: I would think so. Downie: --there was just a larger population to work with. B Biggs: We had a larger population, and we had, we were young enough. Karen Haynes was one hundred percent behind it. I was on her search committee, and I got to ask one question, each of the faculty members (got to ask one question). And mine was, “We have nineteen federally recognized tribes in the county of San Diego. What do you think you would like to do, if you became president, about that?” And she said, “First of all, I would talk to people who know about it, and know what the needs are, and want to meet with the native people.” And I was like, “You're hired.” Downie: Ding, ding, ding, ding. (laughter) B Biggs: You're hired. So it was really having a leader on campus who was one hundred percent behind doing this work. And she came to a number of our, before we had NAC (Native Advisory Council), came to a lot of our tribal communities task force meetings, just to hear--that was getting people from business, you know, you think it's- Who, Raj (Dr. Rajnandini, CSUSM Professor of Management)? Is Raj still there? Downie: I believe so, yeah. B Biggs: And Glen Brodowsky. Folks that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with this stuff all had input and all had ways to take their resources and their knowledge base out to the reservation. Or their advice to the reservation to help-- Downie: And NAC is Native Advisory Council? B Biggs: Yeah. And that, that evolved. You know, so Wendy Schlater (member of the La Jolla Band of Luiseño, elected vice chairwoman of that tribe in 2019) from La Jolla rez, Henry’s rez, and I went to President Hayes and said, “We need-“ you know, there was at the time what they call Latin- Latino Faculty and Staff-- G Biggs: LAFS- B Biggs: LAFS. G Biggs: Latin American Faculty and Staff. B Biggs: And then they had just started an African American council. So, I thought, you know, we should--especially because we have so many tribes in the area, and it was time. And they're still meeting. I'm not going anymore. But, but it's wonderful that, that they are meeting and that, and I believe President Neufeldt (CSUSM President Ellen J. Neufeldt, appointed in 2019) is behind everything I've worked with her on having to do with the tribes. She's very-- Downie: It dovetails nicely with her social mobility focus. B Biggs: Right. It does. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So-- B Biggs: Oh, another first on campus was bringing therapy dogs. Downie: Okay, well-- G Biggs: It's down here. B Biggs: Oh, is it on here? (laughs) G Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) I see it right at the bottom there. B Biggs: Oh, is it really? G Biggs: Right at the bottom. Downie: But no, that's I think perfectly. That's, that's a wonderful first. Yeah. I think that's been done, you know, like in the county libraries of the public libraries, there's been the reading to dogs. So, it's not like it was completely foreign to people that dogs could be used in a very positive way. Other than just simply assistance animals. And there's nothing simple about that. But you know, the therapy dogs and the comfort or support dogs and things like that. I haven't seen a support alligator on campus yet, thankfully. Or a support snake. Any, any kind of reptile. Haven't seen those yet. But it does seem like it's being a more acceptable thing, but just the bringing them on right at finals time. (Bonnie affirms) To give students another form of release is, it's obviously quite popular. I walk out to see you and, you know, there are just students everywhere, you know, coming by, you know? Kids that didn't know about it are coming by and just, “Oh, well I gotta stop and touch a puppy.” B Biggs: And faculty and staff. And administrators-- G Biggs: Presidents. Downie: Yes. We all need it. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Librarians. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So we can move on to some of your other career accomplishments beyond the firsts. You did do a sabbatical in Ghana, and wasn't that one of the first internationally, international-- B Biggs: Might have been. I don't know who else had gone-- Downie: --sabbaticals. I don't have a list of who's done a sabbatical when and where they went, but it doesn't seem like we had too many faculty-- B Biggs: Not that many of them-- Downie: --that were internationally focused the way you were on this. B Biggs: And there was somehow money. It was obviously Komla Amoaku (Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM) who got me interested because they do have what I would call tribal libraries, or libraries formed by indigenous people in Ghana. And so, he got money through the-- G Biggs: United States (overlapping dialogue) Information, USIA. B Biggs: So, so a little bit of money to help fund that. We of course got some money from the university I guess, to go, but we ended up paying your (Gunnar’s) way. G Biggs: Yeah. Thanks. B Biggs: For everything. And we stayed at a woman's home, auntie-- G Biggs: Jane Korontang. B Biggs: Korontang-- G Biggs: On Labadi Beach on the Gulf of Guinea. B Biggs: So Komla-- Downie: I may have to ask for spelling. (laughter) B Biggs: Komla got us connected everywhere. And we had a--but it, but again, it was to go around and talk with people in libraries that again, were kind of like the tribal libraries here. Some pretty well formed, some others, very slim, I would say. But the thing about Ghana was Komla was very involved in the music world there. He was the director-- G Biggs: Director. B Biggs: Of the national Symphony-- G Biggs: Theater. B Biggs: Symphony or Orchestra? G Biggs: National Theater of Ghana. B Biggs: National Theater of Ghana-- G Biggs: Which was an umbrella organization for all the arts-- B Biggs: For all the arts-- G Biggs: Music, theater, et. cetera-- B Biggs: So he ended up getting this one. It was like my sabbatical. And he (Gunnar) was the star. (laughs) G Biggs: No. No. B Biggs: He had, he had you conduct the-- G Biggs: Well, I, we went to hear a concert of the National Symphony of Ghana which was, it's a long story, so I won't go into it now, but it was really a treat. And the next day, Komla said, “Would you go to their rehearsal and talk to them about their performance?” So I did. And it was amazing, you know, and they had me conduct a piece during the rehearsal. But they were using some like, traditional African instruments in a symphony orchestra. That was just ridiculous. I mean, it was so good. And they--I found out that they didn't have strings for the--they didn't have a, they would break a string and they would find some way to make a string. Downie: Oh, wow. G Biggs: So when I got back, what I did is I asked all my symphony friends, I said, “If you have old sets of strings, tuners, anything that would be violin, viola, cello, or bass, give them to me. I'll get them to Ghana.” So, I sent a whole care package. They couldn't tune up. They didn't have a piano that was in tune, so I sent them tuners and things like that. But-- B Biggs: And the other, there are a lot of stories, but the other thing about him is we went to a couple of jazz clubs. G Biggs: Which we didn't know existed in the first place-- B Biggs: In the first place. G Biggs: --there were jazz clubs in Accra (capital of Ghana), the main-- B Biggs: But we walked in and Komla introduced him (Gunnar) as this big jazz star. And he ended up showing the African musicians how to play jazz, which is some funny stuff. I mean, jazz originated in Africa. And the rhythmic foundations of jazz-- G Biggs: Well, the head of USIS, United States Information Service, Nick Robertson, who lived in Ojai (California). Anyway, he was a jazz vibraphone player. He played vibes. And he had gotten together, we got some music sent over. Some musicians in Accra, to form a band, at the place called The Bassline. B Biggs: As in bass line. G Biggs: It was amazing, you know? And so I sat in and then, then he said, “We're gonna close the club tomorrow, and you're gonna do a clinic.” I said, “Okay!” (laughter) And then here, and I felt so outta place, because here I am trying to show them the idiom of American jazz, which wouldn't exist were it not for West African influences, ‘cause they had a little couple of pieces of the puzzle rearranged, kind of, and it turned-- B Biggs: By the end of the night, they were-- G Biggs: By the end of the night, they-- B Biggs: They totally had it. G Biggs: They got it immediately. And so I got to-- Downie: Well, they had the foundation. G Biggs: Yeah. So I got to sit in every-- Downie: It morphed into something different-- Downie: So I got to sit in a bunch and play. B Biggs: And then Komla took them out in the country and played with a whole bunch of African drummers, and Gunnar sitting there trying to do the, like the apentemma drum. And this little seven year-- Downie: Well, I remember Gunnar playing in Komla’s-- B Biggs: Yes, yes-- Downie: Classes and things. You know, the performances that-- B Biggs: That's right. Downie: What was the name of the-- B Biggs: Sankofa? (Dr. Amoaku’s Artists in Residence group, which CSUSM granted a stipend to support the university mission of diversity through arts.) G Biggs: Sankofa. Downie: Sankofa. That you would do-- G Biggs: Well, I knew enough to be dangerous (laughter). But when he took us to his home in Ho (Ghana), which was way up in the northern Volta region, they had these people waiting for us when we drove in, it was like midnight. And all the kids were gonna dance and drum for us. And they asked me to sit in again. So I'm playing this one part, and it's like, I remember this eight-year-old little boy going, “Yes, no, no, no, no. Yes. That's it. No, no, no.” (laughter). So I'm being totally humbled to the roots. B Biggs: By an 8-year-old. (laughter) G Biggs: But I remember everything he told me. B Biggs: Everything, yeah G Biggs: I mean, so-- B Biggs: So, anyway, it was my sabbatical. But he was the superstar. G Biggs: No, I didn't get on national radio. B Biggs: I got on national radio but what, but they would not let him come in. They actually had people with guns-- G Biggs: Fifty caliber gunmen placements. B Biggs: Over I guess, you know in, for national radio in a country that, I mean, there really weren't bad things going on-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Well, if there, if there's a coup, the first thing-- B Biggs: They go-- G Biggs: --people do is they take over the national communicate television and radio. Downie: Oh, true. Yeah. G Biggs: So they had these guys with helmets and fifty caliber machine guns. And you were, if you weren't on the list, they'd point the gun at you to keep walking. B Biggs: Gunnar was like, “I think I'll wait in the car for you.” G Biggs: I moved back to the, yeah-- B Biggs: It was just a quick interview. But about-- G Biggs: It was a good interview! B Biggs: --tribal. And it was a, it was nice in the interview to be able to talk about some of the similarities between the indigenous library, libraries in Ghana and the tribal libraries here in the country. So it was-- G Biggs: You did that at the University of Ghana too, remember? You went in there and you talked with them? B Biggs: I think so. G Biggs: Yeah. I was in the car waiting again. (laughter) B Biggs: You were probably, yeah. Yeah. G Biggs: But you talked to people at the university. B Biggs: And I may have at the university of--where did we go? British Columbia (Canada), I think I talked about, had an opportunity to, one of the many you know talks was to talk about that there are indigenous libraries in Africa as well. So, it was fun. What else? But yeah, his story, I mean, he was “Mr. Superstar” there. Yeah, you were. Yep. Downie: Okay. So well, we'll move on out of Africa and come back to the states here. (laughter) Talk about anything, anything you did at the CSU level rather than campus level. Anything that you did? B Biggs: Lots of talks. I'm trying to think. I actually got involved in development at one point. Fundraising. Downie: I kind of remember that. You were doing some fundraising. B Biggs: And there was a group that was formed out of San Luis Obispo, on librarians who were involved in development. I'm trying to make, remember the name of that group? Do you remember that? G Biggs: No. What about the California State Library? Recognizing. B Biggs: Oh, yeah. I mean, but that's not the CSU. G Biggs: No, but under this career accomplishment thing. B Biggs: Yeah, well that was a big one. Was the, you know, the assessment thing. That came out of having a relationship with a woman I met through AILA (American Indian Library Association), American Indian. She went on to become the state tribal library coordinator. Susan Hanks, I don't know if you remember Susan's name. Downie: That name sounds vaguely familiar-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Which didn't exist before you. B Biggs: Yeah, she, well, yeah. G Biggs: Sorry. B Biggs: National. ALA (American Library Association). I actually went from being involved with ALA with more, much more with AILA (American Indian Library Association). I would go to ALA meetings. But it was all about, you know, going to the AILA meetings. Downie: But you were the first non-Indian president-- B Biggs: President, of AILA. Yeah. And that's Lotsee’s (referring to Patterson) fault. She pushed me down that road. (laughter) G Biggs: And you got an award for a Librarian of the Year for-- B Biggs: Yeah, it was-- G Biggs: What was that award? B Biggs: I don't know. The plaque is in there. Downie: I remember typing up some of the newsletters for AILA. Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: I was your support person with Arts and Lectures. B Biggs: That's right. Right. It, I think they still have the group, and I wanna think it's Librarians of Color, which I'm not that colorful. I am part Cherokee, but I don't, I don't talk about that to, what's it called? Joint Conference Librarians of Color Distinguished Service Award. Yeah. Oh, that was a, what was the one we did the talk at? In the--people from--that were the Whakatau (pronounced with a “ph” sound). G Biggs: Whakahau. B Biggs: That was their actual name. G Biggs: They were Māori. B Biggs: Māori. G Biggs: Māori. B Biggs: And, and it was- G Biggs: New Zealand. B Biggs: Yeah. Indigenous First Peoples from all over the world. And that was, that was through AILA, my part was through AILA, but it was with International Indigenous Librarians (Forum, advocacy group for indigenous peoples in library systems). Yeah. Downie: Your influence-- B Biggs: This is bringing back weird memories, God. That's where they put him (Gunnar) in charge of helping. And he had like these five Indian women that were telling him what to do and how to do it. And he was like, “Whatever you say.” Downie: Whatever you want. (laughter) B Biggs: Palomar Library Association. Wow. Downie: Because I know you were, you would've been involved early on. B Biggs: Way early on. Yeah. Yeah. You were too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, I edited the newsletter for ten years. B Biggs: Right, right. Downie: But that was also what opened my contacts to where when I first, when I finished my master's, Connie Constantino (former Library Director, United States International University) reached out to me. And I knew her through Palomar Library Association. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. So do they still exist? Downie: No. It became San Diego Region Library Association. And then a couple years later it folded. There, just, I think there were too many divergent interests going on. And again, it's kind of like students you know, when they graduate out, you know, you gotta have at least one driving force. And I think we came to a period where it just wasn't a driving force anymore. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Not sure how far and deep I was involved with-- Downie: I know (overlapping dialogue) I've seen some photographs of you at events. B Biggs: At events, yeah. Downie: Because I just saw Alice Rigg (former president of the Palomar Library Association)-- B Biggs: Wow. Downie: About a month ago. B Biggs: Carolyn's in touch with her. Downie: Yeah. Carolyn (Funes) got in touch with me to get in touch with Alice. And Alice is moving, downsizing and moving in with her son, and so she found a couple of old photograph binders of early-- B Biggs: Wow. And she was pretty involved, right? (Downie affirms) I mean, she was, yeah. Yeah. Downie: It seemed like the public librarians were much more involved in Palomar Library Association than the academics were. I think because we probably just, we were also having-- B Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) Had all these other--yeah. Downie: --to publish and research and everything else, where the public librarians, this was a way for them to see each other and be able to congregate. Cause a lot of them couldn't go to ALA and stuff like that. There just wasn't any funding for the public librarians. B Biggs: I hadn't thought about Connie Constantino in forever-- G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Downie: But yeah. Were you there when they started the scholarship? Okay. B Biggs: I don't think so. Downie: Okay, because I know they had this scholarship. B Biggs: But I remember someone getting it. Yeah. I'm trying to think who. Downie: Cause I, I haven't been able to track down the memories of how the scholarship got started. B Biggs: Does Alice know? Have you talked to her or? Downie: She wasn't feeling too terribly well that day, so-- B Biggs: Okay. Downie: --no, I didn't really push her for a lot of stuff, but yeah. I may reach out to her again. So yeah, bringing up those old memories. (laughs) B Biggs: I mean, PLA (Palomar Library Association), I hadn't thought about that in forever. Well, PLA is also Public Library Association. (Downie affirms) But I mean, but the Palomar-- Downie: But Palomar. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Downie: But well, anyway, let's move on to your post-retirement work, because you certainly haven't rested on your laurels, so to speak. You've continued a lot of your initiatives and then you've also gone and done Love on a Leash (nonprofit organization providing pet therapy). But, I know that your liaison work, a lot of it was after you retired from the library. B Biggs: Right. So, Karen Haynes asked me to serve as tribal liaison. She was upset I was retiring as soon as I did. I think I was only sixty. G Biggs: You did it. You bought time. So it was early sixty. B Biggs: I bought time. So, so I was young, but I was ready. I mean, putting in twenty-two years at that, you know, place that the university was at was like putting in forty-four (laughs) in terms of-- Downie: It was a lot of work. B Biggs: --just everything starting from scratch. So, I was ready to retire. She (Haynes) asked me if I would stay on and do, and I got to just pick my hours work from home. I was on the rez ninety percent of the time. But that's when the, the community task force was really underway. And that's when we started NAC. And I stayed on NAC until just this year. So, I retired in 2007 totally, like stopped being tribal liaison in 2007. Retired as faculty in 2004. I am still, I guess, on the California Indian Sovereignty--Culture and Sovereignty Center (CICSC ; founded in 2009). I keep trying not to be, but I'm on. And so the things I continue to stay involved with, I'm trying to help this new Mejaumi (Franco-Rosales) who is replacing Tish(mall Turner) or filling some kind of tribal projects role until they find a tribal liaison. So I'm doing that. The big work now is working with Donna (Uchimura), Uncle Henry's daughter, to get Uncle Henry's archives digitized and to make sure that the family has a great deal of input and oversight. And so that one, that one's happening right now. I understand that Donna has let Joely (Proudfit) know who she wants to be on this committee. When Joely said she wanted to have a committee in this meeting with Donna, my first thought was, “You know what committee means to us.” (laughs) I thought, “Oh my gosh.” So, walking across the bridge with Donna, I said, “You know, you involve family to the extent that you want them.” And so (noise of a phone chime) she's done that. And Sean, she wants Sean (Visintainer). And she knows I'm trying to take a step back, but it's the one thing I can't not do. I just can't, for Henry's sake, I can't abandon the family until that’s done. Downie: Well, that and all parties trust you. You know, and you have such a long-established history of doing what's right and-- B Biggs: Yeah, there is trust. Downie: --I don’t think everybody else see their--see the path forward. It's very important. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And I stay in touch. You know, we just visited Pala (reservation) a couple weeks ago. Walked in and there's Chairman (Robert) Smith sitting there, but these are, these are people now who are Casino rich. And you know, so it's a whole different world, but they're just still folks who remember Gunnar and I putting books on a cart and running it over from a little trailer into the new building. So, we still have a relationship with a lot of those libraries. Rincon (California), we recently went out and gave them materials on Luiseño songs. G Biggs: Do you hear Zuni? (family dog) B Biggs: Is she in her dream? G Biggs: She's chirping. (laughs) B Biggs: She's having a dream. (laughs) Downie: And you know, because I worked under you as support staff for what was supposed to be a seven-month appointment, if I remember correctly-- B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Well it turned into four years! B Biggs: I know. Downie: But I would go home at night and I would talk to Dennis and Delaine about what was going on. And I mentioned your work with the tribal libraries. And do you remember Delaine's book project, where she gathered books from-- B Biggs: Oh, yeah. Downie: --from her elementary school to donate? B Biggs: Yes. I forgot all about that. Wow. Downie: No. That she, she came up with that idea on her own and, you know-- G Biggs: That's too cool. Downie: --I was so proud of her for doing that. But you know, you have inspired things to go out beyond your own efforts, which I think is really important. B Biggs: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. (Gunnar laughs) Downie: I will. B Biggs: And can she fix my iPhone? No. (laughter) She works for Apple, right? Downie: She does. B Biggs: Check it out. Somebody you wanna know (laughter). One beautiful overlapping of that, is we have gone out twice, maybe three times, with therapy dogs to the Little Feathers School at Pala Library. So there's the library, and now there's Little Feathers School. Downie: Good. B Biggs: And I've talked a couple of really good friends into--I’ll drive, and it's a long drive--and to go out and take therapy dogs to-- Downie: Oh, that’s wonderful. B Biggs: --tribal kids. Yeah. So that, I have to set it up with her again to do that. But that, so that's like both worlds coming back together again, which is-- Downie: Because-- B Biggs: --a beautiful-- Downie: You, you've mentioned this, but there is Love on a Leash, which seems to be a huge portion of your life now. I mean, you were president of the local, the local chapter, right? B Biggs: Right. And National. G Biggs: National. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And vice president for ten years, and still very, very involved. My issue now is just organizing too many events. I'm doing What Gives Your Life Meaning? (CSUSM initiative and campaign for palliative care) in a couple weeks. And I'm having to, I've learned to say no, kind of, to this sorority, that fraternity, that you know, I just can't do--So we've narrowed it down to four big events at Cal State San Marcos. And six libraries and two-- Downie: And you've got all those volunteers to organize with their dogs. B Biggs: Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. It's kinda-- Downie: Multiple sessions. Yeah. And it's admirable that everybody wants you, but there's also, you could have dogs on campus every day. I mean, if you really-- B Biggs: I would love to. Downie: --accommodated everybody who asked. B Biggs: Can't do it. Can’t do it. That was a hard one. And I'm having to step down from Cardiff Library because I have twenty minutes down there, and only had one kid to read to the dogs. So it's like they never got it off the ground, two years now. So, and that's hard. Gunnar knows, like, I don't know how to say no. (laughs) And learning to do that. But yeah, that's a, definitely a passion. And I love the university. I think that's the most important. Downie: Well, you do have your bench on the campus, it says-- B Biggs: That's right. (overlapping dialogue) He (Gunnar) calls me a bench! (laughs) Downie: --"I love this university,” I believe is what it says on it. B Biggs: Yes, it does. Yeah. Downie: Right next to the one with Dannis (Mitchell, deceased library employee). B Biggs: Yes, yes. (unintelligible) Yeah. Downie: So, I usually have a closing question. Because we've kind of been through my list here, but is there anything you can think about that, you know, or a culminating statement that you would want to say about the years you've had with Cal State? And you too Gunnar? I mean, you've, you've jumped in and reminded and brought up a few things, but-- B Biggs: I love that university, and I love what it gave me the opportunity to do in terms of the work with tribes, the work with Arts and Lectures. Owing books to, you know, I mean, I did work with patrons, but these other peripheral responsibilities are--run deep and are so meaningful to me. So I'm grateful for the opportunity. And even better to bring my dogs back. G Biggs: Yeah. B Biggs: That's just the best. (laughs) G Biggs: Well, for me, because I did take such a long time off from higher education, it is a home that I found. I got a bachelor's degree there that they let me design. It didn't exist before. I didn't know that was possible. The faculty there said, “You can do this.” I got a single subject California teaching credential there, and I actually taught there for three years as well. So, I consider it my academic home. I feel really at home out there. And I still know people that teach there, which is kind of cool. But it was very accepting to me, very flexible and of the highest quality. I mean, the, I almost said floundering. The founding faculty (laughs) came from such great places. They were really good teachers, researchers, and human beings. I was really just totally immersed in their lives and their subjects. So, it was really a nice place to finish up that part. For me. Downie: And I have to agree wholeheartedly with both of you. B Biggs: Aw. When you turn this (recording) off, I have one final story. Downie: Okay. (laughs) Alright, well I think we can end the interview at this point. So if you'll pass the phone over to me, I'll find the off button, wherever it is. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024. Description An account of the resource Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-055 Subject The topic of the resource American Indian Library Association California Indians California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison California State University San Marcos. University Library Libraries -- Ghana Jazz -- Ghana Jazz musicians -- Ghana Love on a Leash Patterson, Lotsee Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 Tribal libraries -- New Mexico Tribal libraries -- Southern California Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-03-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ghana New Mexico San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs Art and artists Community history CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Riccardo Savo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Brian Bilbray OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Tijuana;San Diego;Borderlands;Politics;Congressman OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. SC027-056 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm Environmentalism and politics Politics and government--21st century Borderlands Mexican-American Border Region Water rights--United States Water rights--Mexico Metropolitan government Politics and government--20th century Environmentalism and politics--California--San Diego Environmentalism and politics--Mexico--Tijuana United States. Congress. House Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Tijuana ; San Diego ; Borderlands ; Politics ; Congressman Brian Bilbray Riccardo Savo 1.0:|19(17)|34(6)|46(17)|62(10)|76(5)|95(5)|111(17)|123(15)|139(3)|155(10)|171(12)|182(13)|195(5)|210(5)|223(3)|235(9)|246(5)|260(12)|273(4)|287(4)|300(13)|312(10)|325(15)|339(16)|353(6)|364(12)|376(5)|387(12)|399(5)|413(3)|425(13)|436(13)|448(12)|458(6)|473(12)|485(10)|504(6)|518(14)|529(16)|541(15)|554(4)|567(7)|579(14)|589(14)|603(5)|614(15)|628(9)|644(13)|655(16)|667(6)|680(3)|690(15)|701(13)|712(9)|724(9)|738(3)|752(3)|762(14)|777(8)|789(5)|803(3)|814(9)|827(6)|841(7)|855(13)|866(13)|881(8)|895(11)|905(16)|919(9)|932(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b761005e2c7ce7501e9da0e69bfc90a2.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Congressman Brian Bilbray and Riccardo Savo introduce themselves and discuss what it was like for Congressman Bilbray to grow up in San Diego's South County, next to the border with Mexico. Birthplace ; Childhood ; Mexico ; San Diego ; Coronado ; Imperial Beach 0 240 Beginning in Politics Congressman Bilbray discusses how he began his political career. Along the way, Congressman Bilbray explains that he had to navigate the political landscape in a way that was analogous to surfing. Politics ; Dana Rohrabacher 0 363 Accension from Mayor of Imperial Beach to House of Representatives Congressman Bilbray discusses the driving factors that led him to successfully run as a Republican congressman including his college degrees and experience. Congressman Bilbray also discusses his previous experience as a lifeguard prior to politics. Law Enforcement ; Lifeguard 0 639 First Term as a Congressional Representative - Environmental Policies Congressman Bilbray discusses how his early political experiences as a city and county politician provided him with the expertise to form environmental policy in Congress. Congressman Bilbray sponsored numerous environmental bills that had a significant impact on San Diego and South Bay. Smog ; Smog Reduction Act ; Environment ; Tijuana ; Borderland 0 1030 Navigating Environmental Groups and the Border Areas Congressman Bilbray talks about how he helped to create the Otay Mountain Wilderness area and how he worked with groups like Green Peace throughout his career. Congressman Bilbray also talks about how the international border can be an obstacle when trying to work with multiple groups and agencies. Otay Mountain Wilderness Area ; Otay ; Frotnera ; Border ; Borderlands 0 1840 Challenging Authority - Second Term in Congress Congressman Bilbray talks about how there is a responsibility to speak up when you see something that isn't right. He also says that just because someone in authority says you can't do something does not make it correct. This mentality directly led Congressman Bilbray to run for a second, non-consecutive, term in Congress. San Diego ; Federal Government ; Healthcare ; Science ; Air Resources Board 0 2184 Tijuana Sewage Management Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with multiple agencies and passed multiple bills to address the sewage crisis. Bob Simmons ; Environment ; Sewage ; Tijuana 0 2926 Working with Bob Filner Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with Bob Filner. Bob Filner ; Sexual Harassment 0 3032 Reaching Across the Aisle Congressman Bilbray talks about how bipartisan legislation is essential to getting things done in politics. bipartisan legislation ; Democrats ; Republicans 0 3371 Local Government and Ideal Changes in Imperial Beach Congressman Bilbray talks about what he would like to see happen in Imperial Beach to improve the lives of people living there. He also talks about the importance of proper consultation by subject matter experts and following facts when proposing legislation. Imperial Beach ; Politics ; Environment 0 3778 Being in the Right Place to Change Things Congressman Bilbray talks about the California REAL I.D. and how some of his legislation did not pass. Congressman Bilbray also talks about going against his own party to convince them to pass legislation. REAL I.D. ; Immigration ; 9/11 0 4210 Outro and End of Interview 0 Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Riccardo Savo: So, formality. Today is April 3rd, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at Cal State San Marcos. I'm interviewing Congressman Brian Bilbray for the University Library Special Collections Oral [History Internship] Project. Mr. Bilbray, thank you very much for being here with me today. Brian Bilbray: Honored to be with you. Savo: No, it's definitely an honor and privilege here. I would just like to begin very broadly, if you could just, you know, tell me a little bit of background, a little bit about your background here in San Diego County. I understand that you're a Coronado native, and, you know, a lot of the issues that you ran as a politician concerned about the environment. How was your experience in Coronado? How did that affect your transition or your, your risk taking in politics Bilbray: For the record, I'm an Imperial Beach. Savo: Imperial Beach. Bilbray: I was born in Coronado, actually at North Island, which wasn't technically part of Coronado at that time. But when I was chairman of San Diego County, I had that part of North Island annexed to Coronado, so I could claim I was born in Coronado. But no, I was actually born and raised in Imperial Beach, a block from the Pacific Ocean. Two houses separated my childhood home, uh, and the Mexican border. I had to go about 50 yards, maybe 40, 35 yards to go to the Tijuana estuary. And that's where I played, beaches, literally, I had the luckiest thing in the world. I literally grew up on the edge. On the edge with Mexico, and the edge, with the Pacific Ocean. So when I talked to my, my cousins in Australia, I could always explain where I live, because anywhere in the world, you just say, “You know where the Pacific Ocean is?" and “You know where the border is between Mexico and the U.S.?” Well, right where they meet is where I live and I'm growing up. Savo: That's awesome. Bilbray: . My mother was an Australian tennis player and accountant, and my parents, um, there was a temporary use of a hotel for General MacArthur, and my parents met there, and my father was a naval officer who actually was from southern Alabama. A place called Monroeville, where To Kill a Mockingbird was written. And he went to an orphanage in Mobile and got into the Navy, and they actually met, and in 1944, my mother came to the United States as the first group of war brides. In fact, she was very proud that she was the first Australian war bride to get her citizenship. So interesting mixture. But that Australian background with a, with an American, a kind of working-class background, kind of made me who I am. Savo: You mentioned once in an interview that you compared surfing to politics. You know, if you wanna ride a wave, you have to take a risk. Could you speak to how those hobbies and, and that childhood background, how did that translate when you were running for [San Diego] city council? What, what… how would I say it? What, motivated you to, to join city council? Bilbray: Well, first of all. Savo: Especially at a young age, Bilbray: You know, surfing starting, I started surfing at third grade, and I'm, interesting story that, when I ran for the city council at 25, 24 [years old], there was a man that lived on my block who I asked him, if “You'd consider voting for me?” And he says, “I'll vote for you no matter what. I've watched you your whole life.” And he says, “I remember you dragging a balsa wood board over your shoulder, dragging the board to the beach and back every day, and you look like Christ going to the Calvary.” And he said, “if you were determined enough as a third grader to do that, I think you ought to go to the city council.” But, the surfing analogy in life is just so clear, it’s that you get out of it what you put into it, but you've got to invest the hard work. And you've got to basically, put yourself in a position where opportunity may come along. And so you're not guaranteed to catch any wave, but you're guaranteed you're never gonna catch a wave if you're not willing to get in the cold water, struggle against the waves, and then sit and wait for the wave at the right time, and then the execution. So, a lot of this opportunity, a lot of it’s perseverance. And one of the things about surfing that a lot of people don't understand is, unlike skiing and a lot of other things, you can't see what you're going to do. You have to imagine the wave breaking to get in the right spot. And so, a lot of this is having the imagination to perceive what is going to happen and be in the right place at the right time with the right talents and the right tools to be able to take advantage of it. And to be able to, you know, accomplish anything with it. And so that, in a little way, I think that applies to all life, but in politics, it just happens to be a little higher profile. Savo: Okay. Bilbray: Oh, by the way. -- Savo: Yes. Bilbray: One of the lines I always said to Dana Rorabacher, which was a guy from Huntington Beach. He would not endorse me for Congress until I went up to Huntington Beach and surfed with him. And he just said, then he said,” Why are you so much a better surfer than I am?” And I said, “Dana, I've been doing it a lot longer than you have, but you surf like your politics, you only go to the right. There's a whole left to a wave. So, if you're willing to just catch the good wave, sometimes you go to the left and sometimes you go to the right.” And I think he took the analogy appropriately [laughs] Savo: That’s great. So, I'm curious to learn about how you went from becoming mayor and then ascending to the House of Representatives. You know, you first represented the 50th district and the 52nd, I believe. Bilbray: 49th and then the 50th. Savo: 50th. My apologies. Could you talk about that ascent for me briefly, if you could? Bilbray: I actually got involved with politics, because I was a lifeguard. And the whole ocean was always very much a big part of my life. But being down there, the clash between law enforcement and the kids on the street, and you had drug dealing in Imperial Beach. But then the law enforcement almost approached it as if everybody who was longhaired and young was involved in this. And I actually got involved with getting groups together to work with the police and get the police to meet the kids and the kids. So that, you know, knowledge is the most important thing law enforcement has. And as a lifeguard, that gave me a good position of someplace where I could, um, that I was neither fish nor fowl. I was sort of in between the law enforcement and the kids on the beach. Bilbray: They were used to lifeguards being around. We weren't a threat. That ended up getting me involved with it. And, when I was 24 years old, actually was 23! I was appointed as a human relations commissioner by the city. And then at 24, I was asked after a rescue where I, had a girl around my neck and I had to do a in-water resuscitation on a young lady. In fact, I always remember how blue she was. I didn't, I really didn't believe we, I had a chance to save her. She was face down and I ended up resuscitating and going-- didn't get any response to her, in her vitals. But halfway to the hospital after the EMTs picked her up, she was… survived. What I didn't know at that time was, we do rescues, like a lot of rescues not in the water resuscitations like that, but we do a lot of it. Bilbray: And you never think about, it's just another rescue. But what happened this time was there happened to be a local newspaper photographer taking pictures of the beach, and he had a whole series of this rescue. So, then the city gave me a big award for saving it. And then people started saying, “He ever thought about getting involved in politics?” And my family had been involved in the formation of the city and a couple recalls. So, as a young, younger person. I sat through meetings and when my father died, my father died when I was in 10th grade. I kind of got mom into the political scene as a way to keep her busy as a high school student. And that sort of led to people thinking comfortable that they could try to talk this young, you know, 24-year-old running for the city council. And I was elected to the city council just after my 25th birthday, a couple months after my 25th birthday. Savo: Wow. And I'm assuming that's like probably around March? Bilbray: April. Savo: April. Oh. So, then… Bilbray: The elections were, separated in those days. And I mean local elections were able to be placed any time they wanted to. Savo: Okay. So this had all happened after the fact that you had attended Southwestern and everything? Bilbray: Yeah. I actually, what happened was, I was a history major with a theater arts minor. Like I say quite freely, I wanted to be a history professor, but I couldn't pull the academics, so I got stuck in Congress instead. But the theater, really the history background with a theater minor really did help me in politics. I mean, in fact, there's a lot of camera crews for TV stations here in town that always, still, jack me up for telling them, “Well, now do you want to get this angle of the light?” [laughs] I would set up the shots because I was used to it. But I'm, I think that it helps to some degree to understand presentation. And not in debate. I think a lot of [the] problem [with] people in politics thinks debates, what's really important Message is a lot more than arguing. Savo: It's all about the understanding, the knowledge, the whole presentation as well. But, you know, it's, it's having that mindset or having that expertise. Bilbray: Yeah. Savo: So I'm curious to learn about your first term as a congressman in the House of Representatives. You authored, sponsored numerous pieces of legislation that not only pertained to the local environment, but also to our border. You introduced the Border Smog Reduction Act of 1998. Could you tell me a little bit about that? How were you able to garner support within the House to do so? And did you work with other local representatives to achieve that? Bilbray: Well, first really, my years in local government gave me a real background that most people in Washington don't have. I served on the California Coastal Commission. I was able to, I served on the Air Resources Board for the state of California, the notorious CARP working with some of the best scientists in the world. And legislators don't have this kind of exposure. I served on the Air District for San Diego County and so, a lot of the technical stuff that you pick up in local administration, you would never be able to have in almost any other field. And so I was, I had worked as a mayor because of the Tijuana sewage problem. I had, you know, 45 million gallons of raw sewage pouring into my city in 1980. And I was aware of that. Bilbray: But the Air Resources Board and the Air District, I sponsored the Smog Reduction Act because you had a situation to where the federal government was requiring that if somebody worked in a non-attainment area, an area where it's polluted like L.A., San Diego, that if you commuted into a non-attainment area, you had to have your car smogged in that non-attainment area. So that was a law. So somebody coming from humor or something would have to do it. Well, the same government that was requiring that the locals do this, were controlling the international border, and waving people in every day that didn't have their car smogged. And so we ended up in a situation in south San Diego, uh, the South Bay that you had Imperial Beach that might have had a real pollution problem when it came to water, but we had the cleanest air in San Diego County. Bilbray: And, because we didn't get hit with what they call the Catalina eddy, where L.A. smog would come out during the night and then blow down on North County and pollute the northern part. Our air, Imperial Beach was very clean, but two miles away, three miles away at San Ysidro we had the dirtiest spot in the county. And that was because of the traffic, the operation of the border, and the fact that we weren't getting the smogging going down. And I got exposed working on that problem. I got exposed to groups like Honeywell's Remote Sensing, where they were identifying that the stop and go traffic was a major pollution problem. And I mean, right to this day, you have no one pushing to have stop signs taken out. Bilbray: We’re talking about doing all these billion-dollar projects and all these great little environmental projects but, just going to traffic circles instead of traffic lights, going to yield signs instead of stop signs, huge reduction in air emissions, and nobody talks about it. It's totally blind. But because I worked on that border smog as a local government guy, I then was in the position that when I got to Washington, I knew the problem, I knew the technicalities and, and pushed that. And what's interesting about the Border Smog Reduction Act, we did not have one Mexican national complain about it. Not one! The people that complained were Americans who were registering their cars out of the country to avoid the deal. And it was U.S. citizens that said, “Well, I'm a U.S. citizen. I have the right to do this.” And all of this, you know, when you do these things, the learning curve is so steep, you learn so much by just making the effort to move it forward. Savo: Hmm That’s very interesting. I didn't know that it was mainly U.S. nationals complaining about this bill. I assume that there would've been some repercussions from the Mexican end. But, I'm interested, how that was perceived after the bill was passed. Were there any political fallout from that? Bilbray: No, you would think that, you think that people, you know, everybody's got a hypersensitivity. Um, like I, I was told by Greenpeace one time that they don't wanna look punitive to a nation of color. So you can't apply the normal standards to certain areas because people then have a hypersensitivity of looking to be outraged about it. I didn't sense very much attack at all. I think that everybody's gotta remember the greatest victims of that problem. The only people that were impacted more than San Ysidro, was Tijuana. And, a lot of that border pollution issue is the fact that the most vulnerable and the poorest are the most impacted. And that isn't discussed about very much. And so, uh, no. I'm sure that there might have been a lot more people upset, but really, it was very focused on the fact that the problem was something that just common sense. That if you want to have the opportunity to go to school in San Diego County, if you want the opportunity to work in San Diego County, with those opportunities, go environmental responsibilities. And that nexus that connection is essential for not only our environmental policy, but for our whole quality of life. Bilbray: You can't maintain any standard if you're going to find excuses to not, maintain a minimum standard. Savo: You mentioned groups like Greenpeace. Um, how, how were you able to reach across to these groups? Or how were you able to be in connection with these groups if they were not so willing to back your bill or not so willing to help the crisis? It seems like they were more counterproductive. It seems like they were more-- Bilbray: Well, they can be on situations like that. But when I did the. I created the Otai Mountain Wilderness Area. And in Washington, because you have certain mindsets in Washington. But, in Washington, when I proposed that we were going to have a wilderness area that had roads in it, you would've think that I was committing the greatest sacrilege in the world because that they couldn't understand, “Well then why have wilderness [area], if you have wilderness [that] is all about roads?” And, actually, it was the local Sierra Club that helped me carry the message to Washington and to the National Sierra Club that without the roads, the wilderness area would be totally destroyed. And they said, “Why?” I said, because the border will be totally out of control. And you have people that had no life experience of the Frontera and what goes on in the frontier. Bilbray: I mean, you're looking at somebody that, when I was 10 years old, walked from Imperial Beach all the way down and, you know, crossed into Mexico and came back. My mother actually caught me as I was crossing. And before she passed away, I said, how did you know to come catch me down there? She goes, “Well, I went to the park and across the street they said, ‘Oh, Brian went with this 10-year-old and, this 12-year-old, and he's going to Mexico.’” And so, she drove down and caught me. But, that kind of, you know, growing up with that environment, you sort of go back and forth about how you approach this. When it comes to, there's just. It's just astonishing how with the entire Frontera area, people are intimidated by it. Bilbray: [They] are absolutely intimidated. And it's so alien to them. I mean, to this day, you have people come visit you at your house, and you can walk out of my front doorstep and see the bull ring at La Playa [in Tijuana]. And Tijuana looks down on Imperial Beach. We take that for granted, and people just don't comprehend that. And I think that a lot of this kind of stuff is, people are intimidated. Even environmentalist groups and NGOs are very intimidated by it. And I remember there was a lady who served with me on the County [of San Diego] Board of Supervisors, Susan Golding, who, was doing something about the border. And she got totally attacked because she said something that somebody was always sensitive about. And she walked in my office very upset and said, “What's going on?” Bilbray: And I said, it's a landmine. As soon as you get around that border region, people are looking at one side or the other, and it's totally different. And don't get upset about it. And they're very uncomfortable about the border. But see, when you grow up in Imperial Beach, when you grow up in San Ysidro, Chula Vista, you know, at least 20% of the kids that we went to school with lived in Tijuana. I mean, which came in handy when you were in high school because you go down there, and you knew somebody's uncle owned one of the bars. You know, it was just one of those things that we were culturally, crossing. But that is, we take it for granted. And that's a big mistake for us taking it for granted. The ability for people to comprehend the trans-frontera culture is so tough for 'em. I mean, that line gets in there. When you try to explain to 'em, and any of us that grew [up] on the South Bay know, you can know where Mexico starts and where the U.S. starts by the color of the lights. And we just sort of think about that. Well, it's something that just doesn't happen through osmosis. It just happens to be our neighborhood. Savo: You mentioned that's a lot to take in. You mentioned this transnational community, this area that IB [Imperial Beach]is located in. Would you say that this community that's being formed here, did it have any effect on the development in IB [Imperial Beach]? Because I know, there's a lot of different propositions that you wanted, recreational that you wanted to… Bilbray: You had, you had. Let me tell you the transformation and anybody that grew up in the South Bay understands it. Where else in America, when do you have to drive through two other cities to get to the other part of a city? Savo: That’s true. Bilbray: Physically cannot go on. A lot of people, we take it for granted, but the extraordinary situation that happened with the major wealth in the city of San Diego, using their political power and influence to annex a huge area in our neighborhoods, and it was for their land development schemes. You had major investors from San Diego City buy in an area called Otai Mesa along the border. And they bought all the land around a place called Brownfield, and they were going to make the international airport there, and they were gonna make a fortune. That major investment, they annexed, and cut a deal, so that they could annex down a waterway, 300 feet wide, down the middle of San Diego Bay, uh, negotiated with cities not to claim their old title. Bilbray: So, they could sneak down here and then annex an appendage down along the border so they could control the border crossing at San Ysidro, and they could take the airport and move the airport down there and make a fortune. They used that to stop any development in the estuary or in the valley because they wanted that all free and clear for landing jets over the top of it. ’Cause they didn't wanna see the problems we had at, at Lindbergh Field. All of that was part of something that those of us in the South Bay didn't even know what was going on. And the annexation of San Diego into the South Bay was a major intrusion. I mean, the south, the South Bay part of San Diego is nothing, less than a colony. And I watched that, I watched it in many little ways, but the manifestation that I try to explain to people so they can have a visual is that when you drive from Imperial Beach and leave Imperial Beach and go into San Diego, between the freeway and Imperial Beach. You'll notice that there's not one billboard in Imperial Beach. Bilbray: But as soon as you hit San Diego, it’s billboard after billboard after billboard. And I know because I was county supervisor for Point Loma and for Imperial Beach, a lot of, most of those billboards were shipped down from the wealthy areas of Point Loma because you had a local council member who want to get it off of Rosecrans [Street in Point Loma]. So, the deal was you take it off of Rosecrans and we'll let you put it down in Imperial Beach in the South San Diego area. And literally using this as a dumping ground. You see hotels being converted to halfway houses in the coastal zone. There's no place else in America where that allows. You've got nowhere else in America under the EIS, the Environmental Impact Statement, could you cite a Home Depot or a Walmart, legally, anywhere with only one access point. You always have to have at least two, if not three. Well, down in the south San Diego, you not only have a Walmart, you have a Walmart and a Home Depot with only one access point. And that intersection is what they call a Schedule E. It is dysfunctional most of the time because they've created that. Somebody made a lot of money on it, and the environmental standards were abandoned because these are just poor people of color. And so, yeah. Don't get me started on this, but the whole concept has been a real problem. Savo: You you're very passionate about the subject and I'm very curious to know how...were, as a congressman, how were you able to explain to your, or illustrate to your constituents that you were that passionate about this, about what was happening in an IB. Obviously today, in today's day and age, we live in an area of transparency, right? Were we're trying to voice our message and our concerns. What, what was your outreach to the community and to the district? Bilbray: I had an advantage that because I had served as mayor and county supervisor, I had shown my passion for it before I was ever a congressman. In fact, I got a reputation of being a little crazy. And that, uh, but the situation was crazy. It started very early in my first term as mayor, where the county health department, which let me just say on the side. The County of San Diego has probably the best health department in the entire country. The standard, of quality, the science is second to none and it really helped me when I went to Washington. One of my greatest, I had resources, I had people I could call, I had people who were so far ahead of the curve on air and in health issues that were great. Bilbray: I had actually started over the issue that the federal government came in and condemned half of our city for a habitat preservation. It had actually been a big section had been condemned by the United States Navy called it the Tijuana Sluice Preserve. And that was the preserve, the right of the Navy to fly their helicopters over our city. And the wind. When I was mayor, we had major vector problem, mosquitoes. And we had salt water, late every year about September, the high tides, big king tides, and we get into it will cause [a] major bloom of mosquito larva. And I actually had mothers bringing their children into a city council meeting and taking their kids' shirt off and saying, “150 mosquito bites! We need to do something about this.” And they were right. When I meet with Fish and Wildlife, Fish and Game, I literally was told straight to my face that “Mayor, that's a sign of a healthy environment.” Bilbray: And that's when you start saying the system is too insulated from reality. And when the county proposed to go down and spray, and they show that they were using environmentally responsible, they were distillates that were very light, [a] thing called Golden Bear. You had Fish and Wildlife talking about diesel. Diesel hadn't been used for 60 years. And the scientists at the county showed, here's the environmentally responsible way to do it. We can kill the larvae. The thing disperses within two hours doesn't impact the, the vertebrates and whatever. And you had somebody in the position of power at Fish and Wildlife said no. In fact, they said, "If the county goes down there, we'll arrest everybody who's spraying.” And when they said that, I announced an a press release and did a press conference and said, good, because the mayor of Imperial Beach is gonna be the one spraying, and you can arrest the mayor for doing this. Bilbray: And then we can, we can stand up in front of court and let the system go. And I think a lot of that is the street sense I learned in a working-class neighborhood that, just because somebody in authority says something, doesn't mean that it's right. And that, you basically know that, you don't argue it in the streets. You take it to the court where it's not their turf. So one thing you'll learn is never fight somebody on their turf. Find a neutral ground. And the neutral ground would've been the courts. And I was coached on how to operate the equipment. I let the media know I was gonna do it. And sure enough, within a few days, the Fish and Game, Fish and Wildlife reversed their position and allowed it to happen. That shouldn't have to happen! And I'd like to think that that would, that is just because it happens everywhere. But frankly, I think there's a big double standard and the mentality of how people approach that. So, I learned to push the system right from there. And that led to issues with sewage and everything else, is that the system needs to be pushed. That's how you keep it honest. Savo: You talk about how you have to sort of break rules to achieve the ends. And, um… Bilbray: Well, let me clarify. Not, well, not needing to break the rules, but when somebody is making up rules that are not the law, then you not only have a right, you have a responsibility to call it down. And I guess that's the big deal. I'll tell you something. The Simon and Garfunkel song, [The] Sound of Silence is about the sin of being quiet. And I think we always stick to the edict that it's better to remain silent and somebody think that you're stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I think it's always safer in our society to remain quiet. Um, I think that is as Simon and Garfunkel will say is a cancer, and it doesn't do anybody a service, especially those that are overreaching or whatever that need to be called down. Bilbray: So no, I think the biggest issue that I've always said is that, like a lifeguard, you couldn't stop me from going in the water and rescuing, I call it the tennis ball and the Labrador syndrome. When somebody like a 9/11 [September 11th attack], somebody like myself, when you see somebody in trouble, there's some of us that just have to go. It's just instinctive. And I call it the Labrador and the tennis ball because when you throw a tennis ball off the end of a pier, that Labrador is over the water before he realizes what he's done. It's that instinctive. And, I think that there's just some of us that are hardwired that way. And this one definitely has gotten me in trouble in politics. But I think it's probably one of the biggest things that I would never change in the world. I'd rather get in trouble for speaking out than allow things to happen because I found it safer to remain silent. Savo: Well that's great perspective because I was actually about to ask you, you have a very unique political story in Congress. Were you reelected for a second term, a non-consecutive term. Was there an energy that reignited your motivation to run again? Was the stagnation of the environmental concerns in Imperial County or Imperial Beach the reason that you decided to run again? Bilbray: There was, across the board there were so many opportunities in the environmental, strategies that are abandoned and feel, so, see. I introduced a bill to eliminate the mandate on California to use ethanol. I had the Lung Association come in and literally challenged me that I didn't care about people dying of cancer. My father died of cancer. Lung cancer. But they were going on a certain agenda. And I knew from serving on the Air Resources board that we had found at the Air Resources Board that ethanol was not only not a good, environmental option, but it was a pollutant. And to this day, the federal government does not do total testing on auto emissions because they want to hide the evaporative emission problem with ethanol because there is a huge Archer, Daniels, Midland involvement and involvement in nonprofits that claim to care about it, that Archer, Daniels, Midland, it's good for their business. Bilbray: And I don't mind 'em doing that, but I mind them wrapping themselves in [an] environmental blanket and saying, “God wants you to give me your money.” I call them environmental Jimmy Swaggers. And that doesn't follow the science. And so many people that you'll hear, “Stick to the science, stick to the science,” will abandon the science, not address stationary sources like inappropriate traffic management if we want to reduce air pollution. But the ethanol issue was one that the Air Resources board came to me and asked me to carry. And I knew about it because I just finished serving with them. That kind of thing, I think is essential to do. And I think for the credibility of those of us working on environmental problems, we have to do that. You can't pick and choose, you know, well, I want this one because it's convenient to do and not go the other way. Bilbray: And, I mean, I drove a natural gas car back in the eighties, not many people were talking about that and the flex fuel that you get into it. But, the, the challenge is trying to keep the science up front. Environmental activism is not a theology, it's not a religion. You don't have dogma. It's the best science you have at the time. And when the science tells you that what you thought was factual is not you not only have a right to do that, you have a moral obligation. I mean, it's so hypocritical to claim you're out to save the world, but you kind of ignore the facts when they don't fit you right. And to this day, to this day, I'm looking at what's happening here in California. Traffic Management, a lot of this kind of stuff that we're working on, nobody wants to talk about because it just doesn't fit the doctrine right now because it's sort of what's fashionable. Tijuana sewage was not fashionable. I built a reputation on that because I had no other choice. And right now, we still have that problem. It's worse today than it's ever been. Savo: So--Bilbray: Don't let me get you off your line. Savo: No, no, no. I just wanna make sure that I Bilbray: follow it up. Savo: I love, I love everything that you're-- Bilbray: Double back on it and get anything I passed that if I didn't hit it. What was your real question? Let me try to get right onto it. Savo: No, I was actually gonna ask if you could elaborate on some of the bills that you had authored, co-sponsored to address the sewage crisis. 'Cause you had two propositions to address the crisis. One, which was the expansion of the South Bay the wastewater treatment plant. And the other was a, uh, I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing it here, Bagua project. Bilbray: Bagua. Well, first of all, one of the things is make sure that the laws follow the science. And one of the things I got involved with that I got attacked for being anti-environment is [to] eliminate the secondary mandate [Secondary treatment of water through the quality control process] at Point Loma. And this is where people, you know, just get so frustrated that they care so much that they turn their brain off. They're leading with their heart and obviously, secondary is better than primary. So why wouldn't we go to secondary? And the fact is, is that it was lucky that there was a physician, I mean a lawyer who, named Bob Simmons. And he actually was just absolutely sharp on the line. And a lot of us, the line was always said that he could see it clearly, even though he was blind, that the law was hurting the environment. Bilbray: And what happened was he had run into the environmental impact report for going to secondary at Point Loma, they went through all the assessments from the environmental point of view, and they said that, “Because we're in this…” the outfall had been taken so far out to sea, was under three [thermoclines], the current of the Japanese current was dissipating. And, and the ocean was assimilating, that there was no net degradation of the sewer outfall at what they call advanced primary, about 89% of all solids taken out to about 94%. And then they looked at, okay, we're going to build, do this, do this, do this. And when they looked to go to secondary, the environmental impact report and the EIS, the environmental impact statement said, the building, the plants and doing all of that, will cause more environmental damage than anything that advanced primary was doing. Bilbray: So the answer to a problem was worse than the problem. And you had people that say, “We don't care. Secondary is the standard, is the law.” And Mr. Simmons talked to me about it, and he was right. And I took it to Congress and said, when an environmental law hurts the environment, it's being implemented wrong. No one passes an environmental law with the intention to hurt the environment. And, so here you had the scientists gave us a report and everybody wanted to ignore it because it meant that we had to go back and rethink an agenda. And what happened was, is that the Activated Sludge Mandate was meant for in-water, freshwater inland rivers and lakes where dissolved oxygen is a big deal. But in the open ocean, dissolved oxygen is plentiful because with so much action in the ocean, that they were taking something that was meant for ponds, rivers, and, small estuaries, freshwater estuaries and trying to apply it to the open ocean. Bilbray: And it hurt the environment. So, [I] actually had Donna Fry attack me for, well, that was because she meant well, but she was, she was ignorant about the situation. In fact, I think the history shows eventually she ended up changing her position too. That along with the, you know, we were talking about some of the other issues on the Tijuana situation. The Bagua [project] was recognizing that the problem was that Mexico did not have the problem. And I'll just tell you this, I have the pleasure of meeting every year with members of the Congress in Mexico and astonishing with all the talk about how people, we are neighbors of Mexico, how few members of Congress actually would go to these meetings. And once a year we meet in the U.S. or meet in Mexico and we talk. There was a gentleman who represented Tijuana in the Congress. Bilbray: And after the meetings, whatever, over a couple beers, he made a comment to me and he says, “Brian, your problem is that it's not our problem.” [He] says, “Your problem is to figure out how to make it our problem.” I said, what do you mean? He says, “You realize that when we dump the sewage, we don't have to pay for the chemicals, we don't have to pay for the pumping, we don't have to pay for the maintenance. You know, it just goes away. And what you gotta do is figure out how to make it our problem.” Well, one way we make it their problem, and the only way that problem is ever gonna be addressed, is when Mexico and Tijuana needs that gallon of sewage to turn into their next gallon of drinking water. And Bagua was a way of being able to do that in a third world country. Bilbray: And that was to get Tijuana on a total recycling program. Where they absolutely had to depend on recycling to be able to provide the water they needed for their country. I mean, for their city. And the concept was that we weren't going to send money into a third world country like we're doing, and we are gonna do again, because what happens is the money gets diverted to other places. A good example is when we first built the Banderas treatment plant in Mexico. I knew the engineering on that, I was in the negotiations in 1985 in Mexico City. Mexico wanted to get a grant to bring a million and a half acre feet of Colorado water to Tijuana through Otay Mesa, Mesa de Otay. Bilbray: And so we were looking at that plan. What we recognized is that, we were gonna send water down there, and the source of the pollution that pollutes our estuaries and our beaches actually comes from the United States. Because without that water, there would not be sewage flowing into the United States. So then their line was, we can't support this unless you can guarantee that this water's not gonna come back polluted, in 1985. And, the entire concept was we tried that, we were looking at that. And when they built the Banderas plant, it just shows you the little corruption that gets involved in these things. And it's not, and you know, if you, if you see the details, you kind of start understanding better why you have these in third world countries. They were open ponds and they had a thing called an aqua lift. Bilbray: And the aqua lift was a tube that air would be pumped in. And it, the aqua lift pumps the water by the bubbles coming up, draws it in. And the Jetco program with the aqua lifts that were engineered for these ponds had converging turbines. So, one turbine would turn one way, the other one would turn the other way, and as the bubble went up, it had all these turbines going there and dissolved the oxygen into the water so much better. And that raised it really up [oxygen levels]. So that was, and when we did the plan, that was all in the engineering. When they went to purchase it, somebody went over to Mexico and said, “Look, we've got the aqua lift and it's only 20% of the costs of these Jetcos. These Jetcos get patents. We've figured out how to do it without it being so expensive.” Bilbray: What they had was a tube with baffles. Now, what happened was it only had 20% of the dissolved oxygens that the other one had. So, the entire plant’s were only a quarter, you know, of what they planned on. Because they had changed this one component. And some people say, “Well, you can't expect them to do that.” Getting back the recycling is where we've got to get it done. And by Agua you have a private company bonded in the United States in Mexico, and they do not get paid for building anything, for digging anything. They only got paid for per gallon they treated, they would then be paid for that. So, outcome-based environmental strategy, and that's one of the things that I'm absolutely an advocate for is we've gotta get back to the concept that the outcome is what matters. Bilbray: You can build all these plants, you can do all these regulations, you can do all these things in environmental strategies, but if the outcome doesn't reflect your goals, then you not only have a right but a responsibility to change this. The regulations are useless And if, it doesn't work out. One of my biggest frustrations working with the Republicans in Congress was they could not see, and John Boehner, I tried to tell 'em and trying to get people to understand there are environmental regulations and you guys only see it as being bad for business. I can show you where it's bad for the environment. It's some of the worst stuff is done in the name of the environment. And so many of my Republican colleagues couldn't just get around, you know, just didn't see that as being important. I thought it's essential! Bilbray: It's the one place you could get the left and the right working together if they're willing to, you know, turn their brains on and open their eyes. And the Bagua was, the whole strategy was get there. Bagua was attacked because somebody was gonna make money off of cleaning up the sewage. And what's sad, you have nonprofits, you have corporations making money off the problem, but not solving the problem. And I actually watched them dismember a package that was put together with a Democrat and myself, [Congressman and former San Diego Mayor] Bob Filner and myself. And believe me, Bob Filner was no joy to work with. In fact, even the Democrats were shocked that I could work with him. But it was because, you know, you play the hand that the voters deal you and Bob was the the congressman from the area. And we worked out this way that says, these guys don’t get one cent unless they treat it, and they only get what they treat. Bilbray: And that was attacked because it was private operation. And people said, “That's immoral to have private companies doing these kinds of works.” Well, ladies and gentlemen, every project in Mexico is done by private contractors. And that's the naivete of people in the United States. Not taking the time to culturally understand that the Frontera is a different world. And that's where we get back to this issue of, we take things for granted here and other people just cannot comprehend it. It’s a quite unique experience we have by growing up on the Frontera. So, it paid off on that. Bagua was killed, and by people that now are crying, “Why has the problem gone from 45 to 55 million gallons of raw sewage pouring in every day?” Savo: Wow. You mentioned working with Bob Filner and the absolute, I don't want paraphrase here, but the absolute nightmare must have been to work and to kind of piece together this bill. How, how, [I’m] trying to phrase the right question here. Bilbray: Oh, lemme say Bob, Bob wasn't bad for me because I was on my home turf. Bob Filner was a carpetbagger. Okay. He, and I don't mind people come in and go back and forth, but, he ran in the South Bay because the South Bay was vulnerable. You realize that Juan Vargas is the only other congressman that ever represented the South Bay that was from the South Bay? Except for myself. That's an indictment to the process. But Bob came in, I had worked with Bob when he was a council member, worked with him before I went to Congress and before he went to Congress. And so there was relationships there that, again, that local government gave me a big advantage. I mean, his wife actually worked for me when I was chairman of LAFCO [San Diego County Local Agency Formation Commission], when I was at the county. And she was the director. And so, you know, relationships do matter, you know, human to human. And Bob knew that I knew his district better than he did. And I think he gave me more respect than I've seen him give anybody else. Not that he couldn't go unglued sometimes. Savo: I mean, you talk about these networking skills that you've developed in the county and then you obviously exercised it in the Congress. Could you speak a little to how you reach across the aisle when it came to these issues? You mentioned that you always have to look not only to the right, but you also have to look to the left. How did you find that goldilocks zone? How did you…? Bilbray: You pick up the tool that you need to get the job done. I actually had people attack me. [Congressman] Randy Cunningham hated Filner, hated that I was working with him. I actually had, you know, Republicans say, and I had reporters say, “You got Bob Filner on 80% of your legislation, why'd you do that?” And I said, because if I've got Bob Filler on my legislation, I got every left-wing crazy voting for me except Maxine Waters, you know? And so, I understood it, but growing up in my family I'm always used to that. My cousin was the congressman from Las Vegas, Democrat, Harry Reid's best friend. Harry Reid carried my bills. And they, you know, the concept that party line should be a barrier is absolutely absurd. And for those of us that are willing to cross the aisle, it's a real advantage. Bilbray: I mean, I prided myself on a lot of issues. In fact, the day I was sworn back into Congress, I made a gesture for a big reason. I was one of twenty-seven people in the history of the country that had come back from a different district. I purposely, when I gave my acceptance, at being sworn in. I did not stay on the Republican side of the aisle. There's two podiums, Democrat and Republican. I crossed over onto the Democrat side and I did my acceptance from the Democrat side. And there's an issue that you call in theater, they call violating your aesthetic distance. You're violating the presidium. You are-- like theater in the round, you're going into the audience. And they don't have the security of being away and sort of safe. And I did, I violated that aesthetic distance by moving into the Democrat side Bilbray: so I could talk to them personally one-on-one, in their face. Not from over here in the Republican corner. And that is a technique, but I think that it should, you know, people should use it more often. If people are safe hiding in their corners, you got an obligation to go pry 'em out. And, you know, Bob was obviously a real challenge. And he had a lot of his, you know, I worked with people in Congress and there's a lot of demons in Congress. But you know, who was it? You know, Plato said that, “Those who should rule won’t.” And I'm saying, look, normal people don't get involved with politics. So you get stuck with those of us that will. I actually had a gentleman named Allen UK, [the] man who gave me the idea of carrying the bill to bring the, the Midway into the county. Bilbray: And he wanted to get involved with politics. And what happened was so interesting is he ended up running against me. We ran against each other to replace Cunningham in the 50th. But he came to me and asked me, and gave me a compliment. And he says, “You are somebody that'll tell me what, what is the secret of being successful in politics? You've done it since you were a kid, Brian.” And, he says, “What do I need to do to be successful?” And I said, “Well, Allen, are you into pain?” And he says,” Oh, I don't mind it.” I said, “No, no, Allen, are you into it? That this is like surfing a big wave in cold water. This is like playing football, you know, you've got to be into it. You've gotta, you've gotta, you've gotta love hitting people and getting hit. Bilbray: Normal people don't do this kind of thing.” And you've gotta, I picture it as this must be how women approach childbirth. This must be important. Nobody would do anything that hurts this much if it wasn't important. And that, you know, that's why normal people usually don't get into politics cuz it's counterintuitive of everything. We're not, but we should be reflecting. But I think that there's a whole lot of good people in the game. There's a whole lot of people that are in the game for the wrong reason. And the trouble is the people that are affected by people in Washington and local government. Don't, man, people grossly underestimate the influence of local government. Most important stuff is the council mayor. And, when bad people get in there, it's the weak and the vulnerable to get hurt the most. And they get it from places that you wouldn't even think about it. Savo: Going back to about the local government and, you know, we're talking about that the federal government's kind of the problem to the solution. It's very counterintuitive. It's not, it's not the actual problem solver, it's the problem itself. What would you, what would you like to see change in Imperial Beach in terms of the structure or in terms of the environmental concerns? What do you think would probably be the most, beneficial, not outcome, but the most beneficial factor to help? Bilbray: We look, I had the privilege of serving in many different levels of environmental administration. Air Resources Board is the most aggressive, most successful environmental agency in the history of the world. They are equated to being Nazis because of a lot of stuff. And you get involved with stuff that you never would dream. I mean, I spent, I knew I'd reached the epitome of my political career when we spent three days on underarm deodorants. Okay. But I also watched Air Resources Board do the political moonwalk and backpedal so fast when they were talking about outlawing two-cycle chainsaws and then all the lumberjacks showed up at a meeting. But that application of people from different backgrounds, but the biggest key there is so essential. But having a scientific group to advise them and having that kind of interplay between people that are experienced in the field and those who are making the policy decisions and the flexibility, [it] really works into a large degree. Bilbray: But that can become out of control too. That can become tyrannical. I think the, the biggest one is looking at the difference between the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act. The Clean Water Act is process based. You will treat this to this level, you will do this, this, this, and this. And then if you do this, it's okay If you pollute, you just do this. And we get into it. The Clean Air Act said if you've got dirty air, you figure out, you put together a plan to address this and bring it forward to us and show that you're gonna do it, and then we'll monitor you. But you'll do it, and we'll give you the flexibility to solve it and to solve, to take care of it. But, there's no limit of what you have to do. Bilbray: And if you don't do it, you lose all your interstate transportation funds, you have a hammer. That outcome-based environmental strategy is so much more advanced, and it's astonishing in so many places that we're still locked into process base. And the process base, I think a lot of it is, you can pick winners and losers there. You go to electric cars and you know who's gonna win in electric cars. And you had, you had Boone Pickens trying to get, um, you know, trucks lined up on natural gas and nobody gave a damn when Mr. Pickens was saying it. And, that you've, you've gotta say where are you gonna go with your reductions and where you're gonna go with your strategies. And that's where I just really think we fall down. Bilbray: It's so much easier for a regulator just to say, you treat to this, and then I can walk away with it. Tijuana sewage, the Clean Water Act, was an advantage. But people who claim to be environmentalists blew it up because they thought they were gonna go clean it up by getting the secondary. By not being a secondary, you then had this situation like we have with Point Loma, where you have a consent decree where they have to do this, this, this, this, this. Not in the law. Okay. If you're not going to go to secondary, you have to do all kinds of other things like recycling water up at La Jolla. All the recycling program was all part of this deal that the lawyer from the Sierra Club worked with me on. But if we went to secondary, like we did at um, in Mexico, the Mexican plant at the international treatment plant, then once you go to secondary, you're free and clear. Bilbray: You don't have no obligations. Okay. Now, now the pollution can flow. And that's what we've got right now, that we actually reduce the capability of treating the volume because instead of removing 89% to 92%, 94% solids at advanced primary, we now go up to 98%, 95%, we got this number, but it's only like 8%, you know, of solids more. So, if you could treat, a gallon here and you get 80% removal, but here you get 95% removal. But if you go to 95% removal, you can only treat a quarter of the water to do that. Well, this had the illusion in environmental groups, so this is better. No, it’s not. You are actually gonna have more pollution going into the ocean because you went to secondary because you’re not treating. [They say]” Well. What we don't collect, we're not liable for.” And say that's how the IBWC was able, their capacity dropped dramatically. And, it's just frustrating to see people that mean well, but don't look at the numbers and don't look at the total impact. And they don't. And really the problem is, so few of people that are involved in this stuff actually live down at the border. Bilbray: And that's, that's the frustration. People are insulated from the outcome. And today, we do not have a recycling program in Mexico today because people who claim they cared about the environment killed the Bagua project because they're worried about some capitalists make money on recycling water. Well, guess what, guys? You got Poseidon up in Carlsbad. You got people, private money all over this country right now doing it and you're gonna do it. That's part of, that's a tool in our toolbox to be able to clean up the environment, shouldn't, allow some kind of misguided theology to stand in the way of good science. Savo: As we're sort of wrapping up our interview here were there any bills that you wish would've passed? Not just related to the environment, but in general as your, as your, both your terms in Congress? Bilbray: Look, I got things done that… In many different ways. Bilbray: The, um, Bilbray: Dirty little secret is probably one of the most efficient things I got done was you open up, look at your driver's license. The real ID bill was my piece of legislation. I did it while I was in my forced sabbatical. And I did it because a group that had worked with me on border problems came to me and said, would you carry this? And I was allowed, because I was a former member, or I was a former voting member, that the chairman of the committee, Mr. Sensenbrenner, actually had to call me into a conference of his Republicans so I could chastise Republicans about the fact that it's not a right-wing conspiracy to have a minimum standard for the ID that you need to get on an airplane. And they say, “Yeah, but this is gonna be a national ID card.” And you had ultra-conservatives that were gonna kill it. And I went in and says, “No, this is the alternative to a national ID card.” You have state IDs, but they have federal standards. And those standards then eliminate the need to have a federal ID. You have. The states are presenting what is, which is enforceable as a federal ID. And getting that passed, is really a lesson for our everybody to look at. It is just now finally becoming mandated. How many years has it been since 9/11? Savo: About 22, 22. Bilbray: And they said, just let me back up and explain why 9/11 is mentioned. The terrorists on 9/11 did not have to show their Saudi passports because they went to Virginia and they got a Virginia license plate, even though, the license, even though they were illegally in the country, they got an ID that got them on that plane and killed over 2,000 people, Americans. And, then when Virginia stopped it after 9/11, they stopped giving it to anybody who [applied] and they required that you have to be legally here, you have to have the proper documentation, whatever, to get it. Maryland was giving it, given it to [people who] didn't do it. So that's when people start sitting around saying, this could happen again. And the people may think that, “Oh, well that's punitive not to give it to somebody who's undocumented.” Bilbray: Well, what, what do you use as a basis for your document if there's no documents, the person has any documents you’re wide open. So that one has been real easy. And it actually goes to something I learned my first year in politics, was 1976 and California implemented a digital code on our driver's licenses, and it was a barcode. And I remember going through hearings as a little 25-year-old city councilman about [how] with this barcode you can put it a put it in a reader and you could get all the information, you can get the picture. In fact, and to this day, I remember them selling that. That all we have to do is get these readers for every squad car, every cruiser. And a police officer doesn't have to sit down and do the paperwork. Bilbray: He can punch it in. The trouble is, uh, fifty years later, they still haven't put the readers in the squad cars. And one of the things was to say it was really important you pull somebody over that if they put this reader in and that the picture on their screen is not the picture on the card. You know, officers are now warned that there's a problem here. But a lot of that is, you know, just osmosis, you're around it enough, you pick it up. And I was able to pull out my California card to these right wingers who didn't want to do it and then pull out my credit card. And, I just said, um, guys, do you have a credit card? “Yeah, we had credit card.” Do you have a …, I said, the government already knows all about it. Bilbray: If you've got a cell phone, they know where you are because we required the, 911 code to be able to track it down because somebody crashed in Colorado, went into a snowplow, and the kids were calling for911 and they couldn't find them. And the story at the hearing was they, Colorado had every, all the state troopers run with sirens on. And then when the kids heard the siren, they said, okay, they stopped the cars and they turned off the sirens until the kids said, stop. And so they knew which cruiser was in the area where these kids were. And I tell the story because that led up to the fact that now every phone is tracked. And so, these conservative guys, I said, they already know where you are. They know what you're buying so to worry about Bilbray: This driver's license thing is absolutely absurd. So that's how we got that through. But there was, you know, look, there's things that you get to do that you don't even talk about. I mean, one of the best things I ever did never even was public. And that is we had a local business that offered to give their supercomputer to the federal government. They had worked with the UC [University of California] system and they offered to give it, as long as I kept it secret, as long as we didn't say who they were. And it was a local business here that gave their supercomputer, as a mainframe for the genome program. And that mainframe and that genome program, ten years later, when my daughter was fighting stage three C cancer at 20% chance of living with melanoma. A 20% chance of living two more years, that's all. Bilbray: And that mainframe and that system that was set up ten years before, found the b wrap mutation on my daughter's cancer. And that's what saved her life. And I have two grandchildren because these businessmen quietly contributed to this. And I just happened to be on the committee, the Health and Environment Committee of the Energy and Commerce Committee. I was on the committee that was working on the genome program. And that deal has not only saved my daughter's life and created the two grandchild children's lives, but have done a whole lot more. I mean, how many millions of people have been saved on that? And nobody even knows that we did that. And that's what's important to being at the right place where you can help, being the lifeguard, being able to run out and, you know, be part of that. And you, you can't, you couldn't give me a million dollars to change that. The little things you do in the back and aren't talked about is what really matters. Savo: Well, Mr. Bilbray, this was an excellent interview. I appreciate you for your time. It was a real pleasure. I thank you a lot. Bilbray: Well, thank you very much. And, if you have any other wines, let me know. I'm unemployed now, so, as long as I'm not sailing my boat to Mexico or riding my Harley over to meet my, see my cousins in Las Vegas, I'll be around. In fact, we are, [on] the 27th of this month. I'm gonna represent my cousin who just passed away this year. They have the 20th anniversary of his elementary school they named after him. See, they'll do that for Democrats, but Republican will never get it [laughs]. But that's okay. Well, my luck, they'll name a sewage plan after me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-056 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Mexican-American Border Region Imperial Beach (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Brian Bilbray License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Community history History Department internship Politics and governance Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rick Blankemeier OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Blankemeier, Rick. Interview January 3rd, 2025. SC027-067 01:28:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Brewing industry ; Stone Brewing Company ; Belching Beaver Brewery ; Modern Times Beer + Coffee ; Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County ; Brewing industry -- Quality control ; Brewing industry -- Accidents Rick Blankemeier Judith Downie sound BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.m4a 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/bd5e888c4de2b7cf6584dfe5ca3b1bcb.m4a Other audio English 0 Introduction Oral history of Rick Blankemeier on January 3rd, 2025 by Judith Downie, Special Collections Librarian at the University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 150 Getting Started in Brewing Rick Blankemeier discusses his education as well as how he got his start in brewing through his wife who got him his first home brew kit. Brewing ; Home brewing ; Colorado 0 618 Quality Control Manager Rick talks about his work at Stone Brewery, Modern Times Brewing, and Belching Beaver Brewery as a quality control manager and the collaborative spirit of the San Diego brewing scene. collaboration ; brewing ; Stone Brewery ; Modern Times ; Belching Beaver 0 1038 Winning Stone's Spotlight Competition and Leaving Stone for the Director of Brewing Operations at Modern Times Rick talks about how he and Robbie Chandler won Stone Brewing's first Spotlight competition by creating Spröcketbier. After spending years as a quality control manager at Stone Brewing, Rick jumped on the opportunity to become a Director of Brewing Operations at Modern Times, another brewery in San Diego. He talks about the transition from one position to another and how he needed to reshape his way of thinking to encompass a larger picture of the brewing business. Manager ; Director of Brewing Operations ; Brewing ; Stone Brewery ; Modern Times Brewing 0 1751 Designing Spröcketbier's label and a Tribute to Matt Courtright Rick talks about how he came up with the Spröcketbier label design and how that gave tribute to Matt Courtright who lost his life in a forklift accident while working at Stone. That accident had a big impact on how Rick approached safety while working for Modern Times and Belching Beaver. Matt Courtright ; Label Design ; Workplace accident ; Workplace safety 0 2186 The Physical Toll of Brewing Rick talks about how the manual labor of brewing at scales like Stone, Modern Times, and Belching Beaver can have an impact on the quality of life and health of workers later on in life. 0 2301 Marketing Spröcketbier Rick talks about how he and Robbie Chandler were flown around the country to go to different brewing events and talk about Spröcketbier. Spröcketbier ; Work trip ; all expenses paid ; Brewing events 0 2746 The Impact of the COVID Pandemic on Brewing Rick talks about how the COVID-19 pandemic impacted the brewing industry in San Diego. COVID ; Pandemic ; Shutdowns 0 3537 Belching Beaver and International Relations Rick talks about being let go by Modern Times and going back to his roots as a Quality Control Manager at Belching Beaver Brewing. At Belching Beaver he developed relationships with Chinese distributers while educating them on the quality control process. international relations ; quality control ; Belching Beaver 0 4013 Leaving Brewing Rick talks about how both he and his wife decided to leave the brewing industry during COVID because of the poor treatment of service industry workers and the rocky ups and downs of the economy. 0 4254 Teaching at UCSD Rick talks about his time teaching at UCSDs Brewing Extension program. He started as a substitute instructor whenever the courses' primary instructor was absent and eventually became the primary teacher. UCSD ; Teaching ; Brewing Extension program 0 4736 Still Enjoying Craft Beer Rick talks about how he still enjoys the craft beer scene even though he is no longer involved with brewing. His favorite watering hole is Battle Mage Brewing in Vista, California. 0 Oral history Rick Blankemeier was a quality manager at Stone Brewery from 2010 - 2017. Rick and his colleague, Robbie Chandler, were the first to win Stone's internal brewing competition which was called the Stone Spotlight in 2014. Rick and Robbie's beer was called Sprocketbeir and it was brewed and distributed nationally as part of the competition. Blankemeier was also the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times from 2017 - 2019 and the Quality Manager of Belching Beaver from 2019 - 2022. He also taught a brewing course at UCSD. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.220 --> 00:00:06.264 And that, and send that to you later. So. Okay. Well, Rick, if you will start by introducing yourself and what you do now. 00:00:06.264 --> 00:00:20.065 Oh, okay. Um, yeah. My name is Rick Blankemeier. I am a, right now I'm the quality, one of the quality engineers at a place called Hydronautics, which makes reverse osmosis filtration membranes. 00:00:20.065 --> 00:00:22.925 Ah, So you're still kind of in consumable beverages in a way. 00:00:22.925 --> 00:00:25.675 A little bit, yeah. In like the water side of things, 00:00:25.675 --> 00:00:25.684 Uhhuh. 00:00:25.684 --> 00:00:53.195 Like we make desalination elements. And, stuff for wastewater treatment and, uh, dairy processing. That's like one of our big things we do is make elements to separate the curds and the whey in cheese making. So, but we do sell elements to breweries too. And, like Belching Beaver, I know buys them and Stone does for all their reclamation operations that they have there still. So, yeah we're pretty happy about that. 00:00:53.195 --> 00:01:01.244 Yeah. So are they any of them using your systems for the water that they're using to brew with? Or is it more for their reclamation? 00:01:01.244 --> 00:01:30.000 Uh. Both. Yeah. So we have different elements that, you know, perform differently. The--one of our elements is definitely better for just--brackish--we call it brackish solutions. It's basically filtering city water or even just like slightly heavier salt water. But then we have desal stuff, which they don't use, but then we also have wastewater reclamation elements that are more specialized for that. And like high pH environments. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:37.045 And certainly something that we need around here. With our abbreviated waters supplies, which, you know, yeah. I've grown up with. 00:01:37.045 --> 00:01:53.114 Actually most of our clients are customers are in the Middle East and India. Actually. It's like, where a lot of it's being used. We actually sell the desal elements to the Gaza Strip's desal plant for drinking water for all the Gaza folks there. So-- 00:01:53.114 --> 00:01:56.305 And there's probably a lot of that that's been blown up and ruined and-- 00:01:56.305 --> 00:02:06.444 Yeah. Well, they try not to target infrastructure like that Because it also feeds drinking water into other parts of Israel too. So, I think it'll, yeah-- 00:02:06.444 --> 00:02:09.693 Yeah. So there's some self self concern going on there. 00:02:09.693 --> 00:02:10.638 A little bit. 00:02:10.638 --> 00:02:10.875 Oh, man. 00:02:10.875 --> 00:02:12.884 Yeah. It's a pretty bad situation over there. 00:02:12.884 --> 00:02:15.568 Well, but that certainly is, is keeping you busy. 00:02:15.568 --> 00:02:16.104 Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:02:16.104 --> 00:02:19.895 So anyway, well, we'll--we're gonna start delving into your past. 00:02:19.895 --> 00:02:19.905 Okay. 00:02:19.905 --> 00:02:26.432 And of course, focusing on the brewing industry. But first, where are you from and what's your educational process or path been? 00:02:26.432 --> 00:04:05.625 Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, so I, my, both my parents were in the military, so we moved around a fair amount, but when I was younger, if I was gonna say like where I'm from, it'd be Colorado. And we settled down in Aurora when my parents were stationed there, and then they retired. Yeah, so we--I stayed there from basically ages, uh, six until we moved out here for work. But, uh, they--my education path's pretty similar, but I got in, I went to the University of Colorado at Boulder, and I did a combination master's, uh, a bachelor's/master's degree in chemical engineering with an emphasis on bioengineering. So I did a lot of, uh, actually it was specialized in tissue engineering. And then once I graduated, decided not to do anything with that and went into natural gas. Um, and so I did a natural gas plant and worked, you know, to set up a process for turning natural gas into hydrogen for fuel cell cars. And also for other hydrogen needs that a lot of other, you know, applications in the petrochemical business. So we'd sell hydrogen to other plants for that. And then, uh, I hated it. And so, my wife and I, well, my girlfriend at the time, now my wife, got me a homebrew kit and, uh, when I was kind of miserable and really enjoyed that. So I found a job out here, and that's when we moved out here in April of 2010. To work at Stone. And I started as a brewer and worked my way up to the quality manager there. 00:04:05.625 --> 00:04:09.844 Do you think it was advantageous to work as a brewer before you went into quality management? 00:04:09.844 --> 00:04:51.944 I think so. Yeah. Um, brewers, at least when I worked with them, I'm not sure if that's the same now, but they definitely respected you more if you worked on the floor. They called the office people, carpet walkers, a lot. And, uh, which they're--a lot of 'em are very necessary for the operation of business. But in terms of the amount of respect, they definitely respected anyone who was, you know, worked on the floor at least, and a recent amount of time, so like, and plus I had to be on the floor a lot, you know to help out with certain things. And, you know, I still enjoyed brewing, so I helped out with brewing a fair amount too. During that time. 00:04:51.944 --> 00:04:57.754 So going back to your home brewing, do you remember the first beer that you brewed? 00:04:57.754 --> 00:06:24.605 I think it was a red ale. It was just a, it was a, just a kit that came with, I think, their home brew kit that my wife got me. And so I brewed that up and kind of got hooked on that. I do remember, it was really funny though because like we just moved in together--this is in Colorado, and I needed shoulder surgery because we went on a rafting trip and my--I was like, try, I got--our boat got turned over in the rapids, and then I tried to swim for it and my arm, like, came out of its socket. So then I had to, I know it was pretty--and it was one of those things where it, uh, tore a labrum, so it was kind of loosey-goosey. So if I like stretched too much on it, it would just like pop out. And I was like, ah! So I eventually got that repaired. And so, my wife kind of helped me with my convalescence with that. But right before I got into surgery, I brewed a beer and put it in the closet. And it just went crazy and kind of, I think over pitched yeast on it, and it kind of just put like, all the clothes in there got like sprayed with yeasty beer, and then she's like, yeah--I was like recovering from soldier shoulder surgery. And she was like, "you clean this up now." So anyways, we had--we had a little rocky start to the home brewing thing, but she eventually-- 00:06:24.605 --> 00:06:26.086 Well, she stuck with you-- 00:06:26.086 --> 00:06:26.721 She did! 00:06:26.721 --> 00:06:27.770 You know, you learn not to over pitch your yeast. 00:06:27.770 --> 00:06:30.996 She got involved in the brewing industry too, so-- 00:06:30.996 --> 00:06:31.722 Oh, really? 00:06:31.722 --> 00:07:10.964 After that, and she was, uh, she was a tour guide at Stone for a bit and then she was the--basically the admin assistant for the brewing department for a few years. And then she left there to go work at Lost Abbey for a bit at the Confessional and, uh, what's it called? The--Cardiff. And was a bartender there for a number of years and really enjoyed it. So she's--she and I are both out of beer now. She's working as a dev test for medical device company in Carlsbad. So. I know. It's like, well, we're actually earning money now, that's crazy. 00:07:10.964 --> 00:07:18.132 Yeah. Well, yeah, you kind of touched on a--on a pretty common theme and you know, you do it for the passion. You do not do it for the income. 00:07:18.132 --> 00:07:19.725 No, no, no. 00:07:19.725 --> 00:07:35.754 You know, you're--I'm--we're watching all these breweries right now closing, and it's this, and, so many of 'em gone up for sale and nobody's buying 'em because they just, you know, they're, "yeah, I'm gonna pour all this money in and not make any, so, you know, can't do that right now. It's just not feasible." 00:07:35.754 --> 00:08:15.000 Yeah. I mean, I feel like probably from like 20--you know, 2006 to about 2018 or so, there was like this, I don't know, I feel like it was more of like a gold rush mentality. I'm sure you have better perspective on it than I do, but being in the industry, it felt like people were just getting into it and thinking that either they would make a pretty decent living on doing it, and they were homebrewers or whatnot, or they were trying to strike it rich somehow and it was felt like that, you know, if you got into this niche and did well, you can make a bunch of money at beer. And I don't think until it's like economies of scale bigger, you don't really make a lot of money with that. 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:48.004 Yeah. You don't. Yeah. I mean, the margin is way too small on your individual glass or can of beer to be making a fortune until you go, like you say, the economies of scale. But, uh, that's something that a lot of people went into because they were making beer and all their friends--they had a passion for it. Their friends told them they were making great beer, you really ought to open up a brewery I'll put some money behind you and yet nobody really had a true business plan or an understanding, or especially when 2020 came around an allowance for some kind of crisis. 00:08:48.004 --> 00:09:27.065 Right! Yeah. Like a kind of a, you know, the emergency funds or like a plan for anything like that happening. Yeah. It was, um, I mean, that was how I actually wanted to get into beer in the first place, was that I wanted to like work at a brewery, so I knew what it was like. So, you know, when I asked, you know, friends, family, and investors for, you know, starting my own brewery one day, that I know what I'm talking about. And like, what I was expecting. And then of course, like after the years went on, I was like, I am, there's no way in hell I'm opening a brewery. There's so much work and there's so much capital in terms of all the stainless you have to buy and-- 00:09:27.065 --> 00:09:53.284 The hours you have to put in the headaches. I mean, the amount of legislation and just reporting and--oh yeah. My head swims when I look at all that stuff and just go, you know, and if you go into it because it's an emotional passion, be because it's creative. That is exactly the sort of thing that you don't do, don't excel at, hate, you know, things like that. But you were wise. You got into it and you saw what was going on and you said, oh, wait a minute. 00:09:53.284 --> 00:10:18.835 Yeah. I mean, it was fun and I really enjoyed, and I learned a lot and, you know, did a lot of work, especially on the quality side and learned a lot about what breweries should be doing in terms of quality assurance, quality control, and that I just wasn't seeing a lot of it. And the breweries that succeeded ultimately, like, had really good marketing and really good beer. I mean, that's essentially what it boiled down to. 00:10:18.835 --> 00:10:52.335 Well, and the good beer goes back to the quality control because there are a lot of the smaller breweries that don't really have the capacity to do really thorough quality control. They're doing the best they can, but it shows when the beer, you know, you've got this one beer that's one of maybe your staple beers that you've always got on tap, but it changes from brew cycle to brew cycle, which part of that is the ingredients change, but your quality control is where it's supposed to step in and say, "oh, wait a minute, this isn't what people are going to expect, and what do we do to fix it?" 00:10:52.335 --> 00:11:34.485 Right. Yeah. And that was kind of--and oh, I was the sort of defacto, being at Stone, and then later at Modern Times a little bit and--but also at Belching Beaver--at Stone, I was definitely like, I felt like the quality control person for all the breweries in the area because they would come, it's like, "Hey, Rick, there's this issue. What should I do?" And I'm like, well, you know, sometimes I'd be like, oh yeah, I'll maybe do this and this and see if it works and they're like, "Oh, it worked really good!" "Thanks Rick!" Uh, but then there were other times where I'm like, uh, dump it. I'm sorry, dude. There's not much you can do without that. Yeah. It's, uh, that's kind of SOL. I just, I would not serve that in any sense or form to you know, a customer. 00:11:34.485 --> 00:11:47.575 Yeah. I mean, and that's hard news for somebody, but really you're not doing in favors to say, hey, go ahead and try this and see if you can resurrect it when you just know is not gonna work. That's just, you know, that's not the San Diego spirit-- 00:11:47.575 --> 00:11:47.585 No. 00:11:47.585 --> 00:12:17.105 --San Diego. Everybody's been so collaborative with each other. That's one of the things, when we first started looking at founding the Brewchive®, I started talking to some brewers and they all said, oh, you need to talk to so and so, and you need to talk to so and so. And giving me all these names, of course, of people who I didn't know but it was just like, people really like each other. I would've thought in an industry where you're all trying to cover the same consumer base you'd be at each other's throats and that's not what San Diego does. Very different. 00:12:17.105 --> 00:13:22.085 No. And that collaborative spirit, I feel like is what really elevated a lot of other breweries and even with like collaborations and everything, it seems like that, it's like definitely an exchanging of information, but also just like better practices too. Felt like the breweries, like I know for sure that I went to other breweries, not even in San Diego, but other places and, you know, like Chicago or down south in like Atlanta and all that. And I saw see things, and I was like, oh, this is a really brilliant way of doing this. Oh, I'm definitely, you know, as our--after Mitch left Stone, Joel Grosser was the kind of brewmaster there, and he'd always say like, yeah, if you see like something at another brewery that was like, better practices, even if it's like just like safety related, or better cleanliness or whatever? Yeah. Steal that, steal with pride. He used to say that, and I was like, and he came from Anheuser-Busch, so I'm not sure--(laughter)--I'm not sure if that means anything, but I was like, yeah, steal with pride! 00:13:22.085 --> 00:13:24.004 Yeah. I like that saying. 00:13:24.004 --> 00:13:48.683 But, I mean it was about like, more about like seeing better ways of organizing things, cleaning things. Safety related, which I feel like is like every brewery would be like, yeah, no. like we understood that like a rising tide lifts all boats and everything. And we know that if a brewery was really bad, that would look--people, the average consumer, at least for the most part, we feel like doesn't really, like they lump all the craft beer in one, in like one bucket. 00:13:48.683 --> 00:13:50.485 Yeah. If one's bad, they're all gonna be bad. 00:13:50.485 --> 00:13:51.284 Yeah so that's-- 00:13:51.284 --> 00:13:51.524 That's not the way. 00:13:51.524 --> 00:14:24.000 So that's what we, I think we're trying to avoid and that's why I helped out so many other breweries with their quality control issues, was that, you know, (we) were at another company. They were like, oh, they're having quality control issues, good. So we're good. But then, yeah, I was actually encouraged at places like Stone and Belching Beaver to help out some other breweries with some of their issues as long as it didn't take away from my duties. But if it's like a phone call and be like, yeah, do this, do this, this, this, hang up, it's fine. And they didn't feel like it was like violating an NDA or anything along those lines. 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:42.325 Right. Did you find much opportunity with all your, with your working to go visit other breweries? That seems to be a real constant around San Diego is a lot of the brewers, front of house, back of house, whoever they go and they drink at other breweries as well, you know. It's not like, oh, I gotta spend all my money at my own brewery. I'm gonna go visit everybody else's and find stuff I like. 00:14:42.325 --> 00:15:19.485 Well I feel like it was actually the opposite, is that we didn't wanna spend any of our money at our own brewery because they weren't paying us enough, and then we'd give them back our money. So, yeah. I mean, me personally, I would always drink other people's beer. I would only like bring, you know, the free beer I'd get at Stone, just because I'm like, here, have some beer from Stone. And it was always polite whenever you went to other breweries is to bring gifts of your own beer and everything there. And then they would also in turn, give you free beer and like a tour of the place. And you get to see everything and that was, kind of that it was like a cultural exchange, it felt like. 00:15:19.485 --> 00:15:41.884 And you never know, you might wind up working with those people at some point too because there's so much cross pollination and job jumping for whatever reason within the local breweries. But then again, being collaborative and getting along with people, leaves those doors open where if you've always talked bad about another brewery, well, they're never gonna hire you if you did need a job somewhere else. You know, that's just not gonna happen. 00:15:41.884 --> 00:16:42.215 Although I have to have a confession that I did talk badly about Modern Times when, um, because Jacob McKean worked at Stone. And, I just, I--full like, you know, full confession. I was not, I did not enjoy him as a person in the very brief instances we worked, because he was on the marketing side, I was on the brewing side, but then he came in and did like, you know, some videos of like, me working the lab you know, the marketing stuff and he's like, you still write all this down? Like, why don't you use like spreadsheets and everything? I'm like, well, I do. I double enter. So then if I lose one or the other, like if you know, the shared drive fails, then at least I have like the paper copy of it because this is all important stuff in terms of quality control. If I can't look back and see like, oh yeah, this had this bacteria in it then, and then something happens, or, you know, it gets in a fire or lose all the saved data, then I don't have that reference to come back to. 00:16:42.215 --> 00:16:44.187 Or if you're walking around with a laptop and beer gets spilled in it. 00:16:44.187 --> 00:16:54.235 Which happens a lot. Yeah. So, I don't know. I just, I wasn't a fan of him. But then later on, I, uh, you know, when I applied for the job, I was like, oh, okay. I think he's kind of gotten a little bit less snooty. A little bit. 00:16:54.235 --> 00:17:10.755 Well, you know, and you know, when it's put to you in a certain way, sometimes your hackles just raise. I mean, it's like you're attacking the way I do things. And it works for me. So, you know, great. If it doesn't work for you, fine. But, so yeah. First impression sometimes. 00:17:10.755 --> 00:17:20.884 Yeah, I know. But in general though, I enjoyed the Modern Times beers. When the opportunity for a director brewing operations position opened up, that's where I went to it. 00:17:20.884 --> 00:17:25.164 Because that was, that would be a step up from where you were at Stone at the point. Right? 00:17:25.164 --> 00:17:58.865 Yeah. And I didn't really have a good--once I got to be Quality Manager, they kept putting people above me from outside from, usually from Anheuser-Busch. And, I was like, well, I don't really have a good career path. And even my boss at the time was like, when I put in my notice, he's like, "yeah, you know, it's, I don't see--I understand you don't really have like a path for growth here anymore." I'm like, yeah. 'cause you got, you've got where I wanted to go. But anyways. But after that, that's where I went to Modern Times for a little bit. It was only there for about two years before I went to Belching Beaver. 00:17:58.865 --> 00:18:08.345 So well before we leave Stone and jump to Modern Times and your experience there, of course, you know, you with Robbie Chandler--now, who is Robbie? 00:18:08.345 --> 00:19:06.983 So Robbie was the warehouse lead at Stone. He was the kind of the--he was the forklift jockey, the guy unloading the trucks. I think eventually became the warehouse supervisor there. But, you know, he was the guy, just big personality and just a bear of a man, big old beard and everything, and he and I just really got along well together. The funny thing was--is that when they announced that if you wanted to be part of the Spotlight competition you pair off with, you know, whoever you wanted to do it with. And so it came down to it. I was like, I signed up for it and then I was like, who do I want to brew with me? Oh, Robbie said he wanted to brew with me. And so I was like, Hey, Robbie, you want to come? He's like, oh, yeah, no, I'll brew with you. And I didn't realize that he had another partner that was already set up, so he just totally like, ditched that, that group, and then came over to my side and people were angry. It's like, I didn't, I didn't know. I just asked him. 00:19:06.983 --> 00:19:08.684 Yeah, yeah. You didn't poach him! 00:19:08.684 --> 00:19:15.085 I know I didn't, I had no idea. He didn't even tell me that. He was like, no, I'm with you on this one. So. 00:19:15.085 --> 00:19:22.384 Well. If he had been talking to you about brewing with you and that, that was the opportunity, I can kind of see why, but yeah, I can see feelings being being maybe a little bit hurt there too. 00:19:22.384 --> 00:19:34.525 And I mean, and bless Robbie, he's got such a good personality and such a, he was very jovial. He just didn't know as much about the beer brewing process as I did. So, you know, I basically-- 00:19:34.525 --> 00:19:36.204 He, he had not been home brewing then? 00:19:36.204 --> 00:19:52.434 He did a little bit of home brewing, but it wasn't like when we were coming up with a recipe, you know, I was just like, Hey, just feel free to jump in if you want, change anything. But I was thinking like, let's do something different, something kind of off the wall, at least-- 00:19:52.434 --> 00:19:53.674 Very Stone that way. 00:19:53.674 --> 00:20:17.404 Yeah. And let's do a black rye kölsch. And he is like, yeah, that sounds good. I'm like, no notes or anything? He's like, no, let's just do it. And I was like, okay. All right. So I guess we're doing a black rye kölsch. Sure. And we spent most of the other time talking about what we'd name it, and we were both fans of SNL and the sprockets skit that Mike Myers was on when he was on SNL. 00:20:17.404 --> 00:20:18.525 Boy, I don't even remember that one. 00:20:18.525 --> 00:20:23.684 Uh, it was like, um, the German ones. He's like, "Velcome to Shprockets, My name is Dieter," you know. 00:20:23.684 --> 00:20:24.674 Oh, okay. The Dieters. 00:20:24.674 --> 00:20:44.884 Yeah. The, yeah. And he is like, yeah, "Vould you like to touch my monkey?" You know, stuff like that. And I guess that's what with my German last name, he (was) always like, um, he's like, no, Rick, I do not to touch your monkey. But anyways, we were all goofing around and kind of riffing off each other and doing these silly little bits, but that's what we wanted to call it Sprocketbier. 00:20:44.884 --> 00:21:07.065 Okay. Okay. Well then that explains the name. I'll have to go back. And probably on YouTube there's some of those old, and rewatch those 'cause, it's been, it's been so, so long. So when you were designing that beer, did you have test batches that you made? How much time did you have to prepare for the competition and it-- 00:21:07.065 --> 00:21:21.204 We made one test batch before we brewed the kind of scaled up one on the small system at Stone. So I did, you know, we did that at Robbie's house 'cause he had a better house for that, to kind of brew on there. So we just did once. And-- 00:21:21.204 --> 00:21:24.355 Your wife probably wasn't real happy about you maybe having beer in the closet again. 00:21:24.355 --> 00:22:22.025 Well, she, uh, she was fine with it after that. We'd have better areas to store things at that point. But, yeah. But we brewed one batch of it, and it came out pretty well. We made--I made some adjustments to the amount of Carafa malt, which is like, that de-bittered black malt. We'd add to it. But after that, we just kind of scaled it up to the small system and brewed it. And yeah. It was Robbie and I kind of on there with the--under the supervision of Steve Gonzalez, who was the small batch manager. I think he still is at Stone, at this point. But, uh, yeah, no, we brewed that. And really, I was hoping to do well, like come in like the top three, but I really didn't expect to win on that. Well 'cause everyone else was like doing IPAs, like fun or other kinds of like, fun kind of Belgian-style beers. And I wasn't really expecting to actually do anything too revolutionary with it. 00:22:22.025 --> 00:22:23.724 Who were the judges, do you know? 00:22:23.724 --> 00:22:27.904 Yeah, it was Greg, Steve and Mitch. Yeah. So. 00:22:27.904 --> 00:22:28.859 The highest level. 00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:29.815 Highest level. Yeah. It was-- 00:22:29.815 --> 00:22:32.914 There was nobody to go to if you wanted to contest the results. 00:22:32.914 --> 00:23:54.924 Well, I mean the whole concept of the Spotlight series came about from sort of the amount of unhappiness of the brewers of not having ways of being creative. So, I think it was in 2013 or 2012 or 2013, they did like the first employee survey. And, they did like a kind of a presentation on that and for everyone, and kind of understood that like there was a lot of unhappy people working at Stone at the time . And, the brewers more specifically were very unhappy with the lack of creative control that they had, which is, I mean, looking back at it, I'm like, it's, you know--it wasn't necessary. I don't know, like it was, we had a lot of really talented brewers. Very, you know, very talented brewers. And I think that they thought working at Stone that they'd get a chance to do a lot more of the creative stuff. And then they did like the creative casks thing where they would like pull beer off into a cask, do cask conditioning and add different ingredients to the base of our core lineup of beers. And that was fun. But then they also wanted to make something that could potentially do well for the company in a national release. And that's where the Spotlight series kind of came in. 00:23:54.924 --> 00:24:06.055 Yeah. There's that tension between personal creativity, what's gonna be marketable, and how many people wanna participate, and how sustainable a program like that actually is. 00:24:06.055 --> 00:24:16.325 Right. And I think that, you know, I'm sure if they reflected on it, they would've gone with a much smaller batch, and-- 00:24:16.325 --> 00:24:17.884 Well, how big was the batch? 00:24:17.884 --> 00:24:41.590 Um, so, I think it was three fermenters for it, which is pretty good for nationwide release at the time, based on the distribution network. So that was, and each batch was about 350 barrels after filtration. So 350, so 700 and about just about a thousand. 00:24:41.590 --> 00:24:42.117 Yeah, Over thousand barrels or more. 00:24:42.117 --> 00:24:44.799 Yeah. And so, yeah, they, that's what they did. Of course-- 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:45.581 That's big. 00:24:45.581 --> 00:25:24.355 Next year was only two fermenters, and then the year after that was only one fermenter as far as from what I remember. But they wanted to, I think, to keep doing a little bit of that in case like something, you know, like a hit happened. Ballast Point, that was the reference of it 'cause Ballast Point had their Homebrew Mart. And they would brew, you know, a few beers and I mean, obviously that's where Sculpin came from. That's where some of their other hits, uh, Indra Kunindra. That weird curry beer that they made that actually did pretty well came from that system. So Stone wanted something similar, I think as like a sort of incubator for interesting, you know, a potential beer that could do well for them. 00:25:24.355 --> 00:25:50.674 Yeah. 'cause I'm thinking, I'm not clear on the date on this, but the American Homebrew Association competition, that Stone sponsored, and then they would take the winning beer and, you know, it's like Chris Banker Xocoveza. Um, Ken, now his name escapes me right this minute. I can see his face in my head! But, you know, uh, Ken did the, um, he always wears Hawaiian shirts, big guy with a beard. 00:25:50.674 --> 00:25:51.815 Oh! Um-- 00:25:51.815 --> 00:25:53.743 I'm just blanking on his name and-- 00:25:53.743 --> 00:25:56.375 Yeah. The coconut porter? 00:25:56.375 --> 00:25:58.265 Yeah. So he did that. And, uh-- 00:25:58.265 --> 00:25:59.835 Yeah, I know you exactly what you're talking about. 00:25:59.835 --> 00:26:06.334 Yeah. And so Mo-J's come out of that, you know, so there've been beers that have come out and like Xocoveza now is a staple. 00:26:06.334 --> 00:26:06.875 It is. Yeah. 00:26:06.875 --> 00:26:16.704 I mean, that really, that went over very well. But I'm not sure when those beers started as opposed to the Spotlight series. 00:26:16.704 --> 00:26:41.944 Yeah. So, the Homebrewer competition stuff was at the same time. I mean, I started in 2010 and we did the first, I think the first of the Homebrew was Ken's beer. And that was the year before, I think in 2009. And then we did all those collaboration series as well. with like Jolly Pumpkin and Firestone and all those other ones. So-- 00:26:41.944 --> 00:26:41.954 Yeah, Dogfish Head-- 00:26:41.954 --> 00:26:43.243 There was always these-- 00:26:43.243 --> 00:26:47.484 There was, I think, was it Dogfish Head, Stone and, you know-- 00:26:47.484 --> 00:26:48.412 Victory. 00:26:48.412 --> 00:26:51.000 They would do like a triangle--Victory. They would do triangle along the, along the bottle. 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.145 That was the Saison du BUFF. 00:26:54.145 --> 00:27:06.724 Each year the position of the breweries would switch around. I mean, 'cause I've got a lot of those bottles from Greg and going, what's the difference between these two bottles? Oh, wait a minute. Stone's on the top now Dogfish Head's at the top now at the apex. 00:27:06.724 --> 00:27:11.164 Yeah. Saison du BUFF. That was kind of one of Greg's fun collaborations with-- 00:27:11.164 --> 00:27:13.365 Yeah. Then the wOOtstout. 00:27:13.365 --> 00:27:33.365 wOOtstout. That was fun. I got to meet Wil Wheaton because he was a homebrew nerd at the time. He's now sober. But, he came in in the lab and was like nerding out. And I told him, and he actually brought some of his homebrew. And then I ran it through our alkalizer, which measures alcohol content so I could tell him what his alcohol and everything was. 00:27:33.365 --> 00:27:33.993 Oh, very good! 00:27:33.993 --> 00:27:35.483 Yeah. It was a lot of fun. 00:27:35.483 --> 00:27:40.085 Yeah, I didn't understand how Wil Wheaton had gotten into that, but, you know, if he homebrewed, then yeah. That would-- 00:27:40.085 --> 00:27:46.285 Yeah. I think it was he homebrewed and kind of, you know, I think probably got approached by Greg or something like that to make-- 00:27:46.285 --> 00:27:47.000 Or he approached Greg at a festival who knows. 00:27:47.000 --> 00:28:21.325 Or something. I forgot what it was, but yeah. Yeah. So that was, that was a--that was a real fun part of the process. Like that was what kind of kept me going on, was meeting these really cool people, not only from like Wil Wheaton, all them, but from other breweries as well. On these collaborations, kind of like, just talking shop about how they did things differently, how we did things differently. You know, I was--I've always been kind of that person that wants to expand my horizons or best practices. I'm like, oh yeah, that makes total sense! Why aren't we doing that? You know? 00:28:21.325 --> 00:28:23.464 Yeah. Steal with pride! 00:28:23.464 --> 00:28:24.891 Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. 00:28:24.891 --> 00:28:32.460 But yeah. Yeah. I mean, people should always be learning in my book, but, oh, yeah--Uh, so, Spröcketbier won first-- 00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:34.983 Yeah. It did, 00:28:34.983 --> 00:28:44.355 And then you brewed over a thousand barrels of it. And, you know, that's a lot of gallons of beer. So, you need to promote that! 00:28:44.355 --> 00:29:16.884 Well, yeah. And I, and that was, uh, there was--actually you can look on YouTube. We actually did some little videos. At least the marketing team did. Tyler Graham was the I think, head--no, I don't think he was head of marketing, but he was kind of the head videographer and creative presence there. He did a really good job with us. Actually, one of the fun things that we ended up doing was actually being very involved with the making of the label. 00:29:16.884 --> 00:29:19.365 I was gonna ask, how was the label designed? 00:29:19.365 --> 00:29:43.404 Yeah, actually, I'll show you. It was, um, for the--so the Monarose, who was actually a wife of one of the brewers came in and we wanted to do like, homages to the other brewers there. So we had this whole entire like, side of the label here. And all these have like little, I guess homages or-- 00:29:43.404 --> 00:29:44.454 References of some sort-- 00:29:44.454 --> 00:29:45.714 References to people who worked at Stone. 00:29:45.714 --> 00:29:49.484 Yeah 'cause there's a rooster. There's a couple of profiles. Well. 00:29:49.484 --> 00:29:50.994 Yeah. Well, that's us. Yeah. 00:29:50.994 --> 00:29:53.404 Okay. Because I was gonna, I'm not quite sure who that-- 00:29:53.404 --> 00:29:55.065 That's Robbie. That's, that's me. 00:29:55.065 --> 00:29:55.505 Okay. 00:29:55.505 --> 00:29:56.565 And then, so. 00:29:56.565 --> 00:29:59.845 Powell, and it looks like a little space--spaceman helmet or something? 00:29:59.845 --> 00:30:27.000 So one of the brewers we had, his name was, well, his nickname was Rooster and he's actually brewing down in Mexico right now. But he would just, like, we called him Rooster because he would just be like, "what's up Rooster?" And like, and he would just caw at us. So we wanted to have Rooster there. One of the other brewers, I don't know, we almost considered him kind of like our mascot 'cause he really--I love the guy. Robskie 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.404 That's the letter bit. 00:30:28.404 --> 00:30:28.785 Yeah. 00:30:28.785 --> 00:30:29.317 The "S." 00:30:29.317 --> 00:30:39.657 He'd always just like, like a finger up and be like, "Hey, money, how's it going money?" And he had like a higher-pitch voice. And so we would--so that's a reference to him. And then-- 00:30:39.657 --> 00:30:41.745 Pow is? 00:30:41.745 --> 00:31:17.164 Is for, oh gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm, uh, it's Cecil. Cecil. He's still there. He just, he was just like, pow! Because he'd always like make it like he's gonna, you know, punch you in the dick. And so he, that's where we got that from. And then this is a reference to Steve Via, who was another brewer there. And we used to draw these, like, he used to draw these stupid little faces, 'cause that's what he kinda looked like. And he'd draw these stupid little faces called, we called 'em Steve Heads, on like the whiteboards everywhere. 00:31:17.164 --> 00:31:19.005 Steve was here. 00:31:19.005 --> 00:31:28.525 Yeah. And then, we had a little tribute to the brewer that, uh, Matt, who lost his life at Stone on the forklift accident. 00:31:28.525 --> 00:31:30.194 Oh yeah. That's the hand with the finger pointing up. 00:31:30.194 --> 00:32:05.285 Yeah. With that, with the same tattoo that we, a bunch of us ended up getting on the finger right there. Because he, it was kind of a jab at him too in a playful way, is that he recently got a--he was very religious and had some Bible quotes tattooed on his bicep. But he was like, he over-ellipseed. And we'd make him fun of him for that. It's like, that's permanent, you know, on there? So then, but that's what we all ended up getting. 'cause he, instead of just doing the dot, dot dot, he'd do dot space, dot dot and so that's what we ended up doing for that. 00:32:05.285 --> 00:32:08.515 Well that's really, really sweet that he's memorialized there. 00:32:08.515 --> 00:32:50.525 Well, and then the burning roses was actually his submission. He actually ended up being able to, um, we, oh--so Chris Ketchum down at Liberty Station, he wasn't able to brew it 'cause he passed away before he was able to brew it on the system. But they made a bigger batch of this and like another couple, like three fermenters full to honor Matt Courtright for that. So that was actually his submission for the Spotlight series. And so he and I--I think it was Jason was his brewing partner on there, but yeah. So they brewed this and it was, it's super tasty. It's really good stuff. 00:32:50.525 --> 00:33:01.954 No, and that's very, very touching because I knew somebody had lost their life on the work floor, but hadn't really delved into who it was or what had happened or anything. 00:33:01.954 --> 00:34:20.525 Yeah, it was, you know, it was that--it was 2013 and it was that time at Stone where we were growing really rapidly and there was where the bottling line used to be, they moved that down to the new packaging hall that was just built. And then they set up a--it was just an empty area there. So it wasn't really, people didn't really forklift around that area very often. So they weren't really aware of where the pillars were. The support pillars. Because there was equipment in the way during that time, but it was a good, convenient storage area until we actually ended up filling it up more with fer--more fermenters. And he wasn't-- you know, looking back on it, at the time it felt like it was a result of Stone growing too fast, not caring about the employees, et cetera, et cetera. But really looking back on it, it was a lot of unfortunately bad decisions made by Matt. He wasn't wearing a seatbelt. There were some drug use implications. I'm not exactly sure if that was the case or not, but I mean, regardless of what he was doing, it was super tragic and he ended up, pop--you know, transporting a chemical drum, turned too fast with his forks up, which is still a bad idea. 00:34:20.525 --> 00:34:22.405 Oh, that's gonna throw your balance off. Yeah. 00:34:22.405 --> 00:35:33.764 He hit the pillar, tumbled over. He tried to jump out. That was also a no-no. So there, like, there was a series of mistakes that happened during that point that if he would've done one of those things, it would've, at least he might--he would've gotten hurt but he wouldn't have died. And, so it was really unfortunate, but we all were devastated. There was so much good talent there that ended up leaving over the next year and a half pretty quickly. I mean, that was other reason why the Spotlight series was kind of, you know, I think it was gonna dwindle down pretty quick because there was just a lack of involvement there. But I mean, we, the brewers that were involved in the Spotlight series, one was Hollie (Stephenson), she ended up being the brewmaster at the new Guinness facility in Maryland. Left to do that. Chris Baker, he ended up being the brewmaster at Mother Earth. Casey (Harris), he's now the co-founder and brewmaster at Topa Topa up in Ventura area. I mean, there was so many really awesome brewers that went on to do better at the brewing industry and just great things. Yeah. And it was just hard to lose all those folks. But losing somebody like that at work, I mean, that's-- 00:35:33.764 --> 00:35:34.795 That's very hard. 00:35:34.795 --> 00:36:02.164 Yeah. It's it at like Modern Times and, uh, Belching Beaver, after I left to work for those places, I always harped on safety as a huge thing because I saw what it did. When you, you know, someone gets seriously hurt or loses their life at the place, it just destroys morale. And I mean, really from some of the people that I still talk to at Stone, it really didn't recover until very recently. And that was only because I think Sapporo bought them and kind of changed-- 00:36:02.164 --> 00:36:06.204 There was much going on. It's kind of like, you know, you--you're looking forward. 00:36:06.204 --> 00:36:07.364 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 00:36:07.364 --> 00:36:13.222 Yeah. But you still wanna remember Matt. That's, that's just very, very important. But yeah. 00:36:13.222 --> 00:36:14.110 Yeah! 00:36:14.110 --> 00:36:25.025 That's Wow. That, yeah, people don't think about what goes on behind the taps. You know, that back of house stuff, the brewery operations are--things can happen. 00:36:25.025 --> 00:36:40.275 Oh yeah. No, it's dangerous back there, especially in big operations. That's why it costs so much to run a big brewery, is the automation that needs to get involved with that. Because you can't do all this just with the, your, you know, strength of your back in terms of labor. You gotta, you know-- 00:36:40.275 --> 00:37:23.715 Well, I have said, because I helped brew the last batch at Chuckalek with Sam (Samantha) Olson. It was a Pink Boots blend, and I'm a "pink booter," so I went out to help Sam and of course it was horribly hot that day and their little tiny operation. And I was going, it's hot, it's heavy, it's sticky, it's awful. I--this is a young person's job. My toes are near flame, I don't like this. But at least you know it, again, it gave me that view into the brewing process. So I had more appreciation for what brewers actually do. But I went, this is definitely a young person's occupation. And not forever because boy, your back is gonna give out eventually. I don't care how much automation you have to help you, there's still a lot that is just simply manual labor. 00:37:23.715 --> 00:38:20.704 Yeah. I mean, I--actually it was interesting. My wife is now working in the medical device industry. But one of the--she actually got to observe a surgery because her company does back surgery equipment and like procedural stuff and everything. And one of the people that was there was someone who worked in the warehouse most of their life at Wyeast who you know, they make the yeast that a whole bunch of breweries use and everything. And yeah it's just his spine was messed up from all the work that he was doing, from that. And I've just seen, so like the--how this amount of manual labor really does wear someone down. You can see somebody, or like, wow, that person has to be like 50 years-old and ends up they're like just coming out of their thirties. You're just like, ooh. That's a lot. That's why I was glad to where I was kind of doing stuff in the lab most of the time. If I wasn't jockeying a desk. So, yeah. 00:38:20.704 --> 00:38:39.105 Now, before I asked you a qu--I need to make a note to myself here about, uh, hopefully that word will remind me what I want to ask you, but I still wanna ask, because you said that after the beer was bottled, you've explained the labeling. You went on a promotional tour. 00:38:39.105 --> 00:39:53.344 Yes. Yeah. That was the real fun part was like over the course of about two months, like we'd go to a location for like a weekend or whatever and then fly back and then do that about three or four times. And, yeah, we went to try to hit all the major hubs. So we did like obviously a promotional thing here. Or at Liberty Station and also at Escondido. Went to Seattle, Atlanta, Cleveland and Philadelphia. From all these places. And so we'd made up with the Air District Sales Manager there, and they would take us where they would want us to, you know, sometimes it was a bottle shop, sometimes there was like a, you know, event happening or whatnot. And that was really super fun. Especially at that time. Because you know, Stone paid for everything, so it was like, okay, it was, you know, making as little as we did at the time, it was nice to go on kind of an all expense, essentially paid tour of these like, you know, places and either have the sales reps or Mitch's credit card kind of pay for everything. So it was--it was a lot of fun. Like Robbie and I got into some really good places, met some really good people and-- 00:39:53.344 --> 00:39:56.525 Did you have to spend a lot of time explaining the beer? 00:39:56.525 --> 00:40:55.954 A little bit. I mean, like, between you and me and the recording, if you tasted a black rye kölsch, and you're familiar with beer styles, you're like, wow, that tastes exactly like a Schwarzbier. It is a Schwarzbier, basically. It's, uh, we wanna make something that's low alcohol, or lower alcohol. I think it was like five point a half percent. Yeah. 5.4%. And so it was something that we could probably drink a lot of during the sales tour and not get too schnockered during that time, and, but yeah, no, we--we did a lot of explaining of the beer. We did, you know, to--we wanted to make it a little bit more unique with using kölsch yeast instead of like a lager yeast. Because I don't thi--at that time, they would've, uh, I think Mitch would've been like, we're using ale yeast for this because it's gonna, we don't want it to sit in a month in, you know, in these tanks. So using the kölsch yeast, that's why I picked kölsch because it turned around much quicker. 00:40:55.954 --> 00:40:57.905 Yeah. Yeah. 00:40:57.905 --> 00:41:13.000 And I like rye. Rye is like one of my favorite grains, so. And I like, kind of like the idea of like using Carafa malt, which was originally designed to use in Schwarzbiers in Germany as a de-bittered black malt so you don't get a lot of the flavor of the malt, of the black malt, but you get the color. 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:15.945 Right. Okay. 00:41:15.945 --> 00:41:16.644 So, yeah. 00:41:16.644 --> 00:41:18.585 Very interesting. 00:41:18.585 --> 00:41:33.275 Yeah. So we did all that and journeyed around the place and did--we had a, it was a place in Seattle where we did--we chugged boots of this beer. It was like a race and so-- 00:41:33.275 --> 00:41:34.684 Good it was 5.4%! 00:41:34.684 --> 00:42:08.885 Yeah, I know. I was getting kind of, I was definitely getting a little tired of all that after, at the time. But I mean, I wasn't. The traveling part was a lot of fun, especially since they always took the--to their best accounts and their--they were just geeking out that they had brewers there to kind of help like promote it. And people came up and asked us a bunch of really good questions about the process and you know, what--how everything is, how we're doing, you know? And what do you do for all this? How, how does this work on a scaled up process, all the geeky homebrewer questions that come our way. 00:42:08.885 --> 00:42:12.992 Yeah. Well, and it also, you know, it humanizes Stone. I mean-- 00:42:12.992 --> 00:42:13.335 Oh yeah. 00:42:13.335 --> 00:42:35.795 Stone has become such so mythic, you know, with the gargoyle and everything else. That to actually have brewers there and real people there from Stone representing Stone. It's not that big mega monolith that the bigger beer brands are, that you don't know who those people are, and they--they're so distanced from the brewing itself that you don't feel the connection. 00:42:35.795 --> 00:43:00.281 Well, and to kind of expand on that, at the time, Greg was very much the face of Stone. And people--and Greg had a kind of polarizing personality, still does, I think. But when you get to talk to with him one-on-one, he is like a super nice guy. Little bit awkward, you know, on that interpersonal basis, but when you get him in front of a camera or in front of a crowd, he turns into the "arrogant bastard" essentially the, you know--we joked around that it was like the Greg-face effect, back in the early days. 00:43:00.281 --> 00:43:16.125 I've seen a reference somewhere to Greg-face. I don't remember where it was-- 00:43:16.125 --> 00:43:54.195 He just had like a open mouth, like ahhhhhhhhh, and that was like his, you know, he's angry about, you know--was it, he's angry about making sure people have good beer or something like that. I don't know. It was marketing around him and I don't think it really landed as much as he was hoping it would land. But, I think part of the pro--but I think that was part of it was when you got the brewers out there, we're just, you know, normal people making beer and really enjoying it. And I think the crowd and people really enjoyed, like actually seeing that there was actually normal people working there. We're not all just like raging maniacs. 00:43:54.195 --> 00:44:10.605 Well, and that's the whole thing about craft beer is it's, you know, there are people and personalities behind it as opposed to anonymous, everything's automated production, so people who want that human interaction, that human touch or, you know, craft beer is really-- 00:44:10.605 --> 00:45:34.394 Literal blood, sweat, and tears going into this beer. I've seen it. It grossed me out, but I've seen it. No, it's, um--but yeah, no, it was--I think that was a big part and I think that's why like the cask events we did at the Escondido restaurant location and also at Liberty Station, the wOOt Fest. And when we released it during Comic-Con and we would make different casks and different beers with like, celebrities or like the minor ce--like kind of like geeky celebrities. That was fun and people I think really enjoyed seeing the brewers kind of working together with that instead of just being like you're saying against like a faceless monolith of a company, there was actually real people that work in this. You know, the ones working actually, like destroying our bodies to get beer to you. You know, and it's--that's a big part of it. I mean, that's why we were really focused on safety pretty hardcore, obviously after Matt's passing because of everything. And it was, uh, it was a big, you know, it was a big wake-up call for I think craft beer in San Diego in general because there was so many people that either knew Matt or knew about him. And then there was obviously like kind of self-reflecting of like, whoa, what if somebody died at our brewery? I mean, that was--that'd be devastating. And they saw that, so. 00:45:34.394 --> 00:45:41.580 Yeah. And that's part of the maturing of the industry is accepting that things aren't always going to stay the same and bad things can happen. 00:45:41.580 --> 00:45:42.686 A hundred percent. 00:45:42.686 --> 00:45:45.684 And it could happen to you just as easily as anybody else. 00:45:45.684 --> 00:46:22.045 Yeah. And like COVID was a big, you know, that was a huge, uh--I think the way I like to, at least I've thought about it and the way that it kind of looked to me was an accelerating event, meaning that it kind of accelerated the, you know, whether a brewery was gonna do well or--Like, you know, I think unfortunately a bad example, or a good, bad example would be Iron Fist. Iron Fist was kind of trailing off there for a bit, but after COVID it was just pretty much done. You know, it kind of accelerated that. I think if COVID didn't happen, they would've limped along for a couple more years, maybe. But I feel like-- 00:46:22.045 --> 00:46:22.605 Hard to say. 00:46:22.605 --> 00:46:25.804 Yeah. I feel like COVID kind of accelerated that. 00:46:25.804 --> 00:47:08.434 I--well, I think it did for a number of breweries, but then we also had a whole bunch of breweries that were in process. They would already, you know, bought--things were already ordered and stuff like that. So it was, well, either we dump everything we've done so far and just take this massive loss--or hope, because who knew how long COVID was going to last, you know, people took the gamble and unfortunately now those gambles and the loans and everything else, they're starting to catch up with everybody. So we're seeing this horrible downturn right now, which just breaks my heart. Every day it seems like there's somebody else. I'm just like, no, not another one! But, you know, if you prepared properly or through the luck of the draw, whatever, some are gonna make it and some aren't, unfortunately. 00:47:08.434 --> 00:47:08.445 Yeah, absolutely. 00:47:08.445 --> 00:47:30.804 So again, the maturing of our industry locally. And I think that if we looked at other regions, we'd probably see a lot of the same thing. Areas that became hotbeds of brewing before we did in California or whatever, we'd see that they've gone through the same sort of cycle, so it's not just us, so that it just, we're here. So it really hits us hard. 00:47:30.804 --> 00:47:42.445 Well, yeah. And, San Diego is such a tight-knit brewing community too. It's like, you know, you hear about, it's like, oh, did you hear that? Rouleur closed. Did you hear about this? And you're like, oh, yeah, I met all those guys. I know them. 00:47:42.445 --> 00:47:57.635 Yeah. I went to Rouleur's last day and, you know, Tomme Arthur was there, Paul Sangster was there, Chris Banker was there. I was seeing all these people that, you know, haven't seen 'em recently, for whatever reason. And it was kind of like, well, it's great to have an old home week, but it's a terrible reason to have an old home week. 00:47:57.635 --> 00:47:59.804 Right. I know. 00:47:59.804 --> 00:48:22.034 So, yeah. But we--we'll pick up and move on, I guess. So speaking of moving on, the little note I made to myself was, when I've been over at Stone, I have been stunned by the speed at which everything's bottled. And I understand that stuff is pulled off the line like every five minutes and checked for quality control? 00:48:22.034 --> 00:48:23.744 Mm-hmm. 00:48:23.744 --> 00:48:29.125 How do you manage it at that speed? I mean, that was just stunning to me. 00:48:29.125 --> 00:48:54.885 Um, I mean, I've seen it happen where there's like times where I went to like, on a tour of the Budweiser facility up in Van Nuys. And they run about twice as fast, if not three times as fast as what Stone does. It--there was a guy on the line, just like looking around, like, oh, looks at the time, says it's about time for collecting a sample. And you just (makes a "tchew" sound) and it just, it's like just second nature to them. He doesn't even do that. 00:48:54.885 --> 00:49:06.844 But then you've still gotta run it through the process. And what if it's bad? What if you do have to pull it? How do you find it? In all that stuff that's already, you know, all this other stuff's gone through in the time it took you to do the quality check. 00:49:06.844 --> 00:51:35.465 Well, I think that's the thing about most beer issues, at least from, like non-sour beers. Like non-barrel-aged sour beers is that if there is an issue, then that's why you drew a lot of--you try to find the quality issue earlier on when it's less expensive to do something about it. So, like with the ingredients, try to do as best as you can as a brewery, depending on, as like how big you are. You know, like friability of malt, you're looking at the quality of the water, making sure there's no chlorine in there. You know, hops themselves, you do sniff tests, and you make sure that's stored well. So once it goes through the process, then at certain points it'd be like, well, if the ingredient's bad, we're just not gonna brew it. Which is, you know, it sucks, but at least we're not gonna like, spend that much money. If we already bought the ingredients, that's one thing. But as soon as you start investing time and labor into it, then it gets more and more expensive. So hopefully by the time you actually put it into a bottle, you know exactly what the quality is gonna be on there. But you still gotta do those checks as due diligence. So the thing about most beer is that if there is an issue with the beer itself, it's as a result--it's like, it's gonna be a systemic issue. Like, with that batch, and not necessarily with like these, like three boxes over here. That you have to, it's like a needle in a haystack, what to call it. And so that's why you try to take samples during fermentation, do taste tests before you send it to the filtration or what, centrifuge, whatever you end up doing with the finishing process of the beer. And then once it's in the bright tank, you also take samples before it's packaged. Uh, for taste testing and approval. And that's kind of the final go/no go. And then you taste it after it gets bottled or canned as well, too, but at that point it's pretty much on a truck that's heading to distribution. So it's a lot more involvement in terms of like doing a recall. If there's an issue with that. So typically if it's a off flavor issue you catch it early enough. Usually it's right after fermentation because that's where most of the off flavor issues may occur. If it's during the pr--and then you take samples, at least on our size, we took microbiological samples, like samples of it, plated it, see what grew. Made sure it wasn't a beer-spoiling organism or anything there. 00:51:35.465 --> 00:51:38.835 How long does it generally take for something like that to develop? 00:51:38.835 --> 00:51:40.324 Well, so that's, that's a-- 00:51:40.324 --> 00:51:43.034 Coming from a non-scientist person, I have no idea. 00:51:43.034 --> 00:53:59.635 Well, no, it is actually kind of complicated because when you take--so I take a sample from, you know, let's say a bright tank. It's about ready to be packaged. I grow it, and look at it and there's some concerning cells that grow up there. It looks like there might be lactic acid producing bacteria on there like lactobacillus or pediococcus. That's immediately sends things, red flags up in my head. So then I inform, you know, my bosses to say like, Hey, I'd like to put a hold on this and do maybe some forced aging to see if it'll actually express itself. Sometimes you see these organisms and they grow on the plate, but they might not necessarily grow in the beer. Um, and with like a lot of--and that's where like a, I think a lot of breweries went hard on IPAs is that IPAs have a lot of hops in them, they're usually a little bit higher in alcohol, which would inhibit growth of bacteria like that if their process wasn't as clean. If you're making lagers, that's a lot harder because it's lower alcohol, it's lower bitterness, IBUs, which it also inhibits growth and bacterial growth. And so if it was like a lager that I found this in, I'd be like, yeah, we're not selling this. But if it was an IPA, I'd probably put a couple, like, you know, I get like--package a few of them put into our incubator for like a day or two and see if anything produces. And, it depends on the beer, but if it, usually, if you don't see anything growing more, or if after you plate it, you don't see any more colony forming units in there, you could pretty much say that it's not gonna grow in it. But that's typically like the bigger issue. And especially we didn't do any sort of, uh, what's it called? Uh, pasteurization at the time, too. That's actually a bigger issue for all the non-alcoholic beers we're making up now, is the pasteurization part of the process. That's the kind of the expense limiting step for it at this point. But, um, but yeah, so that--it might take a day or two, it might take a couple weeks. There's some times where it kind of like caught me sitting up at the time where I released a beer knowing that this isn't--feeling pretty confident it's not gonna grow in it. But then I'm like, well, what happens like six months from now or whatever? 00:53:59.635 --> 00:54:05.744 Yeah. When its sitting on a shelf in a store, especially if they, they're not rotating their stock properly. 00:54:05.744 --> 00:54:08.914 Or keeping at room temperature. Exactly. Exactly. 00:54:08.914 --> 00:54:12.925 Yeah. No, that sort of thing always alarms me. 00:54:12.925 --> 00:54:31.875 Oh yeah. No, it's--that's what keeps you up at night is being a quality manager, is that like, you know, there's that give and take. Like the job of the quality manager is to assess and inform your management about the risk. So, and then see how we can mitigate that risk. And so for-- 00:54:31.875 --> 00:54:36.925 But it's not really your final call. It's gonna be higher ups that are gonna say, we're gonna pull this. 00:54:36.925 --> 00:55:07.565 And it should be. because I'm the one informing them of what the risks are. It's like--and if there's something that's like super high risk, like in terms of like something they want to do, I'd be like, no. Absolutely not. Like I, when I was at Belching Beaver, they kept wanting to do a Radler and without pasteurization and I'm like, absolutely not. Because you are adding sugar to it. Because like sugar and grapefruit juice or sugar and lemon juice. Whatever, which way you go. And if there's anything growing in there, it's going to grow a lot more you know? 00:55:07.565 --> 00:55:09.045 Right. Something's gonna explode. 00:55:09.045 --> 00:55:12.025 And I don't want that. I do not want that. 00:55:12.025 --> 00:55:17.275 No, that's your name on the line plus the company and everything else. 00:55:17.275 --> 00:55:21.224 They called me a spoil sport and I'm like, good! I am. That's my job. 00:55:21.224 --> 00:55:22.724 That's exactly right. 00:55:22.724 --> 00:55:37.385 Like, there's times where I'm like, well, this plate might not grow or might not, but I'm informing you about the risk. I'm, you know, whatever direction you want to go. I'll be happy with. But then there's other ones where I'm like, absolutely not. No, I'm not gonna have my name attached to this. 00:55:37.385 --> 00:55:55.045 Yeah. No, good for you. Stand up for it. So, um, when you went to Modern Times then, in 2017 as Director of Brewing Operations, this meant you were not doing quality control anymore? Or how much interaction did you have with the QC people there? 00:55:55.045 --> 00:56:45.965 I had a lot of interaction. I mean, that was my background. So, you know, I really wanted to make sure that we focused on the QC aspect of it and any sort of money we could invest to help out with that. Modern Times did a lot of barrel-aged beers. And so Morgan Tenwick, who was the QC manager at the time, she was kind of struggling pretty hard with that. So I ended up purchasing more kits and we kind of worked with her on how to do better barrel testing. So when I was discussing before about how, like usually if it's a tank of beers, it's gonna be bad, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna be bad. But with like barrel-aged beers and sour beers, anything you put into a barrel, you have these discreet, like mini vessels, right? And you have to test pretty much all of them. 00:56:45.965 --> 00:56:50.844 Yeah. It's a much more uncontrolled environment because a barrel is wood. It's not-- 00:56:50.844 --> 00:57:17.885 It breathes. It has stuff in it. Yeah. So then that's why you have to pretty much do micro-testing on every single barrel that's going into a batch. That way if you find something in one barrel, you can leave that out of the blend. And so that's what we ended up doing for the barrel-aging program at Stone, after we kind of got hit on a few of the like big infections that came out of it. You know, we--because if as soon as you dump that infected barrel into the blend its-- 00:57:17.885 --> 00:57:18.405 Oh yeah. The whole thing's gone. 00:57:18.405 --> 00:57:31.000 Exactly. So that's what we ended up doing there. So I helped out with that a lot. Because that was like low volume, but high margin stuff for us. So we wanted to do that. And then-- 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:35.596 And, Modern Times's reputation was really, is really reliant on a lot of that barrel-aged stuff. 00:57:35.596 --> 00:57:35.606 It's huge. 00:57:35.606 --> 00:57:45.105 I have several friends that are members and they just, you know, when the barrel-aged, you know, some of 'em have got massive cellars of the Modern Times barrel-aged. 00:57:45.105 --> 00:58:55.525 Oh, it's huge. Yeah. And it was really good too. And so that was one of our big priorities. The other beers, like, I mean, that was pretty much we could handle like the normal production stuff with our IPAs and whatnot. Um, the, yeah. My biggest adjustment was like actually caring about the budget. I mean, I always cared about the budget when I was on the quality side. But it was like, how do I, you know, they gave me this money. How do I spend that? What new equipment do I need? What--do I need to hire somebody else? Stuff like that. Instead of being like, okay, here's the budget. How do I deal it out to like, quality? How do I deal it to brewing and packaging? And so that was a big adjustment for me. And then of course, all the other things that happened during that time, that's when Modern Times is blowing up. They bought the Commons Brewery up in Portland. And so I had to go up there to help set them up. And you know, I think, Tim (Kamolz) and Andrew (Schwartz) did a lot of that work, and Matt (Walsh), who moved up there to take over that position as a brewer up there. And so I do a lot of that. And then we opened up downtown LA location, and then we-- 00:58:55.525 --> 00:58:56.844 There was a lot of expansion. 00:58:56.844 --> 00:59:22.804 Oh. So much expansion. And, you know, that's--it kind of got to me. Plus I was still living up in Vista, so I had to go all the way down to Point Loma all the time on that. So, and then they kind of did like a whole kind of reorg. And so I got, you know, thrust out of my position there. And then I, but I already was kind of looking at leaving too. So it was, it was good timing. And then that's where I went to Belching Beaver after that. But. 00:59:22.804 --> 00:59:29.000 Okay. So now Belching Beaver, again, you're going back to more quality management. 00:59:29.000 --> 01:00:54.074 I learned my lesson that I think, well, I could have done I think a good job at that position as a, well, DOBO, Director of Brewing Operation. But it was just getting to be a lot for me. Plus I wasn't really, you know, I think Modern Times was hurting by that time with all the expansion and it really just came to a forefront. I think after like, not only COVID, but the rat magnet thing that happened too after that. So, but the, uh, but yeah, going to Belching Beaver was, you know--it was like going like, kind of going back down again in scale. And it was very much like a family run, you know? It is, it was still a family run place and all that. But yeah, just a, they were having a lot of quality issues and they needed somebody to kind of with an experienced hand to help set things up in terms of their quality systems and do the micro testing. And, because they were selling a lot of beer to China, especially the peanut butter milk stout. And that was really super popular in China. So they wanted to make sure that, you know, and Chinese are very--they will try to get as much out of you as possible for as little money. It's kind of their business, way of doing business. And so when they were having a lot of quality issues going there, I found a lot of where the issues were coming from on the bottling line, because they only wanted bottles. They didn't want cans over in China. 01:00:54.074 --> 01:00:58.355 Well, when I think of Chinese beer, everything I can think of is in a bottle. 01:00:58.355 --> 01:01:48.005 Yeah. Mm-hmm. They like it. And you know, I think they have a big recycling program for glass bottles there. So like, we send those over and it was fine, but it was just, it was, you know, they--I had to be the kind of interface on the quality side. They take it very seriously there. And so I was like showing them what we were doing, where the issue came from, how we're resolving it, being very transparent with them kind of as a, you know, since we're the supplier, they're the customer, we wanna make sure that they basically saddled us as I'm using in my new industry, a supplier corrective action where I could actually like, basically tell them exactly what we were doing to resolve some of these quality issues and being very forefront with them, upfront with them, but also holding them accountable for how they store our beer. Because-- 01:01:48.005 --> 01:01:56.125 That seems to be a big problem with the imports. Or exports that we're putting out to other countries is how it's being handled on the other end. 01:01:56.125 --> 01:02:27.164 Well, because they, because, and they were--they didn't know much about the beer and how it should be stored. So I kind of educated them on that. So then they can, because the distributor, that distributor of beer, so then they can tell their customers when they come back for a, you know, as a complaint, the distributor can come back and be like, how did you store it? And it was like, did you transport this case of beer on the back of a scooter up this mountain after sitting out for like three days in like the sun? You know, it's not gonna taste the same as they remember it. 01:02:27.164 --> 01:02:29.324 How true. 01:02:29.324 --> 01:02:33.565 Yeah. And that's what we had to like, really deal with, was like-- 01:02:33.565 --> 01:02:40.034 Well, I mean, I'm sure people don't think how their actions can affect a product. 01:02:40.034 --> 01:03:13.244 Yeah. Well, and craft beer over there is very new. And or, and the beer that they were used to is the mass produced stuff from like, Snow and some of the other imports in the area. You know, coming in, but not American craft beer which is a lot more sensitive. We don't at least at that point, pasteurize our beer, which helped, you know, stabilize it, but also affected the flavor. Like the non-pasteurized stuff I think tastes better because it doesn't get cooked a little bit. You know, it's not designed for that. And so. 01:03:13.244 --> 01:03:19.525 Well, and that's the argument Coors has made for all those years, is we don't pasteurize so you get a better tasting beer. So, you know. 01:03:19.525 --> 01:03:21.474 Yeah. I think they still pasteurize a little bit. 01:03:21.474 --> 01:03:22.085 Yeah. It's-- 01:03:22.085 --> 01:03:24.474 But not the--that brand. 01:03:24.474 --> 01:03:32.454 Yeah. No, I remember their ads from when I was little. But anyway, so Belching Beaver, you were there during COVID? 01:03:32.454 --> 01:03:33.784 I was, yes. 01:03:33.784 --> 01:03:35.045 How did that work out? 01:03:35.045 --> 01:04:06.525 Um, you know what it was--I mean, we were all, it was a very confusing time whether I would get like furloughed during that or whatnot. But, with--at least we were considered an essential business, so we ended up doing a lot of production during that time. And actually our production increased significantly because like a lot of other breweries that were more reliant on taproom sales, we weren't as much. 01:04:06.525 --> 01:04:08.614 Right. You were already canning and-- 01:04:08.614 --> 01:04:09.490 And distributing. 01:04:09.490 --> 01:04:22.045 --distributing a lot of your stuff, which was very different because a lot of the smaller guys had only been tap rooms and they had to suddenly turn around and get canning equipment or a mobile canner or something to keep them in business. 01:04:22.045 --> 01:06:38.474 Absolutely. Yeah. So that was kind of the big turnaround there was that we were able to distribute to, you know, we used the Reyes Brothers (Reyes Beverage Group) distribution, and they got us into grocery stores a lot and our beer sold really well in the grocery stores. So actually, COVID was pretty decent to us, actually pretty good. I think the, obviously the restaurants that we had, the one, the pub in Vista and then the downtown one in downtown Vista suffered a little bit because of that. But after all, kind of like more restrictions were lifted and you can do outside seating and all that it was, you know, it turned out okay. But the beer definitely was helping us survive that and we actually did really well. That was like our biggest selling as far when I was there, it was actually during COVID in terms of like distributed sales. Which was actually pretty cool. So, but yeah, I mean, it was, it was weird, like wearing masks around the place. Really not knowing what sort of, I don't know, like what, like early on what actually was like the vector of contaminant--you know, of an infection was until it was like a, it was a, you know, respiratory infection. But what the interesting thing was, is like everything else that we did to try to like, reduce the amount of people working there, we furloughed a few of the brewers, so it was kind of a skeleton crew, but then we eventually had to bring them back on because we were making so much. The, the funny thing was, is just everything we were doing, like trying to help out with some of the other friends and family of the business. We actually had, one of Troy or one of our director of sales's friends is a barber and he came in and took over our bathroom and gave people haircuts in like our single stall bathroom, because they were all, like all the salons and haircut places were closed because they weren't considered an essential business. So that's how he made money, was like every week he'd come by and be like, who needs a haircut? And then we'd just go into the single serve bathroom across the way from my office. And give us haircuts. I got, it was a really nice haircut from him. 01:06:38.474 --> 01:06:42.965 Well, and that's also a bit of a morale boost that you can get yourself tidied up a little bit. 01:06:42.965 --> 01:06:45.965 Yeah! No, we were all looking a little rough there. Around the, the hair so it was-- 01:06:45.965 --> 01:06:52.525 Between all the emotional upheavals and the ups and downs everybody went through, just being able to get your hair cut was a big thing. 01:06:52.525 --> 01:08:36.000 Oh, yeah. No, and that, and that was, yeah. Like, so my wife, that was kind of the impetus of kind of both me and my wife to kind of consider where we'd want to go, you know? And beer kind of wasn't looking to be that direction. She was working at The Confessional at the time and in Cardiff. And of course they shut everything down was like supposed to be to go only, although she made exceptions for really good customers that come in and hang out, like socially distanced inside, but still just hang out and drink their beer at the bar, like a normal person instead of like having to go beers go out the front door. But, yeah, she--they had to set up the out--and then once they were allowed to do outside service, they had to set up these tables and then break 'em down again. So they wouldn't get stolen. And it was really like taking a toll on her. And we were watching a lot of Star Trek during that time. And she was like, man, I wanna be a programmer! And I was like, oh, interesting. Okay. I didn't really expect this, because she loved, I mean, she loved the customer service aspect. Like, we got to be decent friends with a lot of her regulars that were really good and, you know, met the celebrities of the Cardiff area that like to come in. Like Haro, Bob Haro of Haro Bikes. He was a regular out there and we met a lot of, you know, a lot of really cool people, including our realtor that bought our house, we met from there. So like, her wanting to move on, like she was getting really tired of moving all these tables and dealing with the customers that were upset about the whole, like, wearing your mask and-- 01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:38.835 The service staff got so dumped on. There was so many people. 01:08:38.835 --> 01:08:46.614 Yeah. Just because people were frustrated, the COVID thing, and they took it out on the service staff and they're just like, Hey man, we're just here trying to make some money. You know? Because-- 01:08:46.614 --> 01:08:48.925 We're not any happier about it than you are, but-- 01:08:48.925 --> 01:09:28.604 Yeah, but we're the ones that deal with it. But, and I mean, luckily enough of the regulars were, you know, kind of helped settle anyone that's like, Hey, you need to, you need to be quiet because she's doing the best she can. And she is an angel. But yeah. So, but she went to a coding bootcamp and got her certificate and then got a job at Tandem Diabetes. They make the insulin pumps for type 1 diabetes. And she was a tester for the software for the website that, you know, you order your refill kits and everything from. Um, yeah. And she misses customer service. But she doesn't miss the-- 01:09:28.604 --> 01:09:35.645 Day to day-to-day grinding part. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Watching people have to set up and break down tables and then all the cleaning you've gotta do, it's like-- 01:09:35.645 --> 01:09:37.034 Disinfecting and everything. 01:09:37.034 --> 01:09:38.925 Yeah. I got my own house to clean. Thank you. 01:09:38.925 --> 01:09:41.305 Right. I know. And that's, yeah. So I-- 01:09:41.305 --> 01:09:44.234 So yeah. That would get old again, you know, just-- 01:09:44.234 --> 01:10:23.864 Yeah, exactly. So that's what she--so that's kind of like where we were at at that point. And then, about just a little over two years ago was when, yeah, like there was kind of a, the big peak at Belching Beaver in terms of distribution during COVID. And then once everything started opening up again, I think people really wanted to go out. They didn't want to just buy beer from the grocery store anymore. So then our distribution sales fell off, but our restaurant sales went up. But the--I was probably the most expensive employee they had so they had to lay me off at that point, so. Which was good because I was actually kind of getting, I don't know, I like being in places where I learn new things and-- 01:10:23.864 --> 01:10:30.145 It sounded like you were already questioning, you know, you and your wife both. She had made a decision to make a change and, you know. 01:10:30.145 --> 01:10:44.725 Yeah. And I kind of wanted to follow that. So, yeah. And then I went--yeah, I got a job at Hydranautics and that was a little bit too--yeah. I started on Halloween of 2022. Or that was my first day. It was a Monday. 01:10:44.725 --> 01:10:47.000 A a memorable day. To say the least. 01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:53.324 Exactly. No. So, yeah. So that's why I kind of, that's how I got ended up out of beer at this point. 01:10:53.324 --> 01:10:58.604 But while you were in beer, you were teaching at UCSD in the Brewing Extension program? 01:10:58.604 --> 01:10:59.045 I was, yeah. I was teaching-- 01:10:59.045 --> 01:11:01.555 What classes and how, when did you teach? 01:11:01.555 --> 01:12:43.000 Yeah, so I remember like really--so it was when Yusuf first started, Yusuf Cherney first started up that--at least helped start up that program, I wasn't involved at the very beginning of it. Gwen Conley, she and I, she was kinda like my mentor--still is to a certain extent--in the business when she was at Lost Abbey. And so she was teaching the sensory classes at the time. So she actually ended up, when she wouldn't be able to make a class or whatever, she would ask me to be involved and then she would give me a portion of her money for that, which was really nice of her to do that. But I taught a little bit of that. But then, so that introduced me to them. Mitch left and stopped teaching after he left to go open his New Realm place in Atlanta. So then, Justinian took over, Justinian Caire, took over the work production class for about a year or so, but then he quit that. But then, so then they came to talk to me because Gwen recommended me. And so then I started teaching, uh, work production in 2017 -- 2018. And, I did that. At first it was pretty popular, so I did it like twice a year. I think usually like a spring and fall quarter because they did quarters there. And, but then it kind of started trailing off where I do once a year. And then last few years, it was like once every--and I taught during COVID. They wanted to have a class during COVID. So I did a whole entire remote session on Zoom and everything. The Zoom teaching, I'm sure you're all familiar with that process. 01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:44.326 Oh yeah. 01:12:44.326 --> 01:13:34.045 Yeah. It was, you know, I didn't like it just because, you know, people had their cameras off. I wasn't--I usually thrive on the back and forth, and I usually told my war stories about like, oh yeah, you should do this and let me tell you why about this. You know, like, and usually people, especially that want to go start their own breweries are kind of interested moreso in like my war stories than the actual like content of the--at least I think so otherwise they're humoring me. I'm not sure. But I know I got pretty good evaluations for on there. So, but yeah, I taught work production, recipe development for yeah--and my last class was actually, because they wound down that program. They only did the last class to help clean up anyone who still wanted to get their certificate. And that was of July of last year. Now 2024. 01:13:34.045 --> 01:13:34.645 Yeah. 01:13:34.645 --> 01:13:35.125 That was the last one. 01:13:35.125 --> 01:13:38.664 Still not used to last year being 2024. 01:13:38.664 --> 01:13:39.845 Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's-- 01:13:39.845 --> 01:13:49.805 But yeah, I mean, it was nice that they did actually get people through the program rather than just saying, okay, that's it. We're done. You know, we don't care where you are in the program. Ta-ta. 01:13:49.805 --> 01:14:11.664 Yeah. They just wanted to, yeah. There was a lot of gauging interest in who wanted to complete it because I mean, it was a lot of money people spent at that time and they just wanted very much try to get all that back. And it was a nice little supplement for my--like by the time it got around here, I was like, I was okay with letting this go. I mean, I still enjoyed it to a certain extent, but-- 01:14:11.664 --> 01:14:15.925 But you've already got a full-time job. This is on top of that. And yeah. 01:14:15.925 --> 01:14:28.000 I'm not even really in beer anymore. You know, like I have a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge about it and everything, and joy sharing that with people who were interested. But, you know, my last class, I only had three people in there. 01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:28.265 Oh gosh. 01:14:28.265 --> 01:14:34.675 Yeah. And one of 'em wasn't even signed up for the class, so, but they wanted to take it. That's fine! I'm okay with it. 01:14:34.675 --> 01:14:39.295 Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, get your knowledge where you can. 01:14:39.295 --> 01:14:39.305 Exactly. 01:14:39.305 --> 01:14:43.784 So at one point you were also on the Brewer's Association Quality Subcommittee. 01:14:43.784 --> 01:14:44.635 Oh yeah. 01:14:44.635 --> 01:14:47.755 What years was that and what did that committee actually do? 01:14:47.755 --> 01:17:38.244 Okay. Um, yeah, no, I kind of got kidnapped into that. But it's like, usually when these like subcommittees pop up, they always need people to like, kind of fill them. And, you know, there's a few people leaving or whatnot. But, I got in that in like 2019, I believe? Because we had some meetings over COVID. It was all Zoom meetings because it was people from breweries from all over the country. But yeah, I, um, I was involved with it. It was like the subcommittee on quality. So a lot of it was just prepping for any sort of quality talks that the Brewers Association wanted to demonstrate, like the lab, the lab in a--Lab In A Fishbowl. That's what it was called. The Lab In The Fishbowl that they always did at the Brewers Association, uh, the craft brewers conferences. And then anything else that might come up to promote quality from either the American Society of Brewing Chemists aspect, or the Master Brewers Association. And we just kind of discussed about programming and talking and any sort of big quality issues that are coming up. Like the big one they were hitting on at the time was hop creep. We're doing excessive dry hops, for usually hazy beers. Uh, ended up maybe causing some refermentation because of the enzymes that were present in these hops were--because one of the bigger innovations that came out last, like fifteen years or so, was to not kiln hops as hot. Because it, it made it like less fruity. Less flavorful, so. But as a result, some of the enzymes that are naturally present in hops kind of went in and maybe did some disassembling of some of the, like dextrins and all that and started creating more simple sugars inside the bottle or can and causing refermentation. And so it was a big quality issue and like how to avoid that. The other thing that came up, and I quit after I got my job outside of beer--I basically resigned my position. They're like, yep, you're outta beer so that's cool. All right. Well, good luck. Um, but, it was the people making non-alcoholic beer, but wanting to make sure that they know they have to pasteurize it. Because that's a big quality concern. Because not only are you having risk of like bottle or can explosions, but pathogenic bacteria too. Because you don't have alcohol. You don't have that aspect that prevents things like listeria and, you know, E coli. 01:17:38.244 --> 01:17:40.314 It's a full different basket of issues. 01:17:40.314 --> 01:18:02.226 Yeah. So that was a big thing that we talked about there. But it was, it was a good time. It was nice because I felt I was coming full circle. And one thing I forgot to mention was I was an intern at the Brewers Association when I lived in Colorado. And I helped work on the craftbeer.com website. And so I--my boss was Julia Herz, who's very famous in the industry. 01:18:02.226 --> 01:18:04.805 Yes. I've met Julia. 01:18:04.805 --> 01:18:45.845 She is a firecracker, full of energy, and she was very proud that I got a job at Stone. Um, you know, felt like she did her part to get some of these craft beer and evangelists in positions there. So, but yeah, she, that was kind of fun. So I got to be there for a year. And then we moved to out here from Colorado to work in the beer, the brewing industry actually in general. So I felt like going back to the Brewers Association, you know, at least on a subcommittee. I was like, oh, I'm doing things! It's good. I'm back here where I kind of started my little adventure. 01:18:45.845 --> 01:18:52.545 Yeah. Contributing to the industry in a broader scale than just, than just the locals. Not that there's anything wrong with just helping the locals. 01:18:52.545 --> 01:18:54.744 That's a hundred percent right. Yep. 01:18:54.744 --> 01:19:10.284 So, so then you were let go from Belching Beaver and you were already kind of looking to, you know, get out of the beer industry anyway. You kind of realized the financial repercussions of working for passion rather than-- 01:19:10.284 --> 01:19:32.234 Yeah. You know, it's, yeah. It is crazy how I was the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times was a very well known, very widely appreciated brewery at the time. And now I'm getting paid about 50% more than when I was--as a Director of Brewing Operations. Which is one of the highest positions in the company, so. It's just the way that it ends up working I think with that. 01:19:32.234 --> 01:19:34.798 Different industries have different pay scales. 01:19:34.798 --> 01:19:35.164 They do. 01:19:35.164 --> 01:19:40.005 It's just the fact of life, sadly. But, are you doing any homebrewing anymore? 01:19:40.005 --> 01:19:48.954 Um, no, I'm not, not homebrewing. I did get a little still, so I've been kind of home distilling. 01:19:48.954 --> 01:19:54.484 Okay. So you're kind of going, I mean, we are seeing more and more distilleries popping up. 01:19:54.484 --> 01:20:29.000 We are. Just, I mean, between you and me, it's just easier to distill because you don't have to worry about the fermentation quality or anything. You just, especially if like, I don't wanna spend like a weekend doing homebrewing anymore, just I'd rather do things around the house. Maybe play video games, but, you know, I'm not a into the, like, spending your weekends, like slaving over hot, you know turkey fryer burner, like I used to. But I do like the idea of distilling. I mean it, like--and it's all stovetop too. The way I do it. So it's, you know, it's simple. 01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:31.166 Very small batch. 01:20:31.166 --> 01:21:09.364 It's very small batch. Yeah. And so, I make like little, like, you know, like, I call ghetto fermentations of like corn and sugar. Kind of like this, like real moonshine. And I've done like, did a little mash and did some like maybe try to do my stint at like a single malt whiskey essentially. But right now my favorite thing is that they have actually a fair amount of wine in the break room at my wife's work. And so--but no one ever goes through all of that. So we have a bunch of like, half bottles of wine. So I make brandy out of it. 01:21:09.364 --> 01:21:11.784 I was gonna say, you're not gonna drink that are you? 01:21:11.784 --> 01:21:33.484 No, no, no. That's why I just distill it and make a little, uh, a little brandy. And then we put little, um, you can buy from like home brew stores online, like little like swirls or of oak. And then you put that in there. So you have oak-aged brandy. And that's like one of my things I do. 01:21:33.484 --> 01:21:34.274 Oh, how fun! 01:21:34.274 --> 01:22:02.725 It's easy too. Because you just pour a bunch of wine into this, put the lid on, and there's like a little coil and you keep that filled with water to cool it down and just brandy comes out of the condenser. I don't have to do a second distillation on it. It just, it comes around 20% or so. Which is plenty. I've done like the three times distillation ended up with like a mason jar this full of like a hundred and like sixty proof. 01:22:02.725 --> 01:22:04.164 Whoa! Goodness. 01:22:04.164 --> 01:22:13.125 Yeah. I was doing a little bit when I had access to lab equipment, so I was able to measure the potency of what I was doing. As long as I gave a sample to our brewmaster. 01:22:13.125 --> 01:22:20.290 There you go. So, being out of the industry, do you still enjoy any of the local beers? 01:22:20.290 --> 01:22:21.484 Oh, yes. 01:22:21.484 --> 01:22:24.145 Or are you just so focused on your distilling now? 01:22:24.145 --> 01:22:38.125 Oh, no. I'm not. It's like a maybe like once a month thing that I do. But, um, the yeah. Actually our kind of local like watering hole now is Battle Mage Brewing. That's where we go all the time. I actually-- 01:22:38.125 --> 01:22:40.592 I would assume you've walked over to Henebery then? 01:22:40.592 --> 01:22:41.086 Henebery's right there. 01:22:41.086 --> 01:22:43.364 Since they do the rye whiskey. Yeah. 01:22:43.364 --> 01:22:48.204 Yep. Yep. They have like a little, you know, they have a fun little collaboration. 01:22:48.204 --> 01:23:07.204 They're very collaborative. I mean, because I go to Henebery and meet up with friends Friday nights. So they can go down to Battle Mage and get glasses of beer and bring it back to drink it at Henebery. But they can't take the, any of the hard liquors over to Battle Mage. You know, I find that sort of dichotomy very interesting in the, you know, it's like-- 01:23:07.204 --> 01:23:19.000 Just alcohol. It's these alcohol rules, man. It's--they're so arcane and esoteric sometimes, you're just wondering, like, I don't know if you've heard of Yuseff's getting married story? 01:23:19.000 --> 01:23:20.150 No. Mm-hmm. 01:23:20.150 --> 01:23:48.564 Oh, gosh. So, you know, Yuseff being co-founder of Ballast Point then eventually Cutwater. He met his wife, now wife, um, she is the owner, or was the owner at the High Dive. I believe down there. And, you know, they dated and then they wanted to get married and they got married. But when they were processing their marriage license it got denied. 01:23:48.564 --> 01:23:50.414 What? 01:23:50.414 --> 01:24:16.005 Right. And they're like, well, what's the deal here? So it turns out as a result of the legislation that came out after Prohibition, it is illegal, or at least is--yeah, it's illegal or not allowed to have someone who owns a distillery or brewery marry an owner of a bar because they're worried about tied-house. 01:24:16.005 --> 01:24:20.185 Tied-house. That's extreme. That is crazy. 01:24:20.185 --> 01:24:27.965 So she, the, uh, and I totally forgot Yuseff's wife's name. Wife's name. And I'm friends with her on Facebook and everything but-- 01:24:27.965 --> 01:24:30.944 Yeah, and I'm--I know her name and it's, well, it's just like-- 01:24:30.944 --> 01:24:49.505 She speaks German and Spanish. She's lovely. Awesome person. But she had to sell her stake and the High Dive in order for them to officially get married, which they did at Valley High. And it was a whole thing, but they was like, yeah, we tried to get married now part deux, you know? 01:24:49.505 --> 01:24:55.604 Yeah. But the fact that anybody would even dig that up, I mean, we're talking a hundred years ago. 01:24:55.604 --> 01:25:03.164 Right! I didn't even think that. It's like, we know those old laws on the books that nobody enforces anymore. But apparently it's still a thing. They wouldn't allow it so. 01:25:03.164 --> 01:25:03.912 That's crazy. 01:25:03.912 --> 01:25:09.725 I know. I--it was kind of crazy to, I don't even know how they found out. Like how would you look that up? Like really? 01:25:09.725 --> 01:25:09.928 Yeah. 01:25:09.928 --> 01:25:14.244 I mean, because usually it's like, there's this person, there's this person, or you related? No, okay's. Let's do this. 01:25:14.244 --> 01:25:22.284 Yeah. Really, you know, you've done your blood tests and fine, you know? Great. You're now legal. So, oh, that's amazing. I hadn't heard that story. 01:25:22.284 --> 01:25:25.849 No, that's one of my favorite stories to tell, especially for history buffs. 01:25:25.849 --> 01:25:31.085 Well, it's a perfect example of how arcane our laws are and how they need to be cleaned up. 01:25:31.085 --> 01:25:31.704 A hundred percent. 01:25:31.704 --> 01:25:53.835 And of course, you know, with former President Carter passing away at a hundred, the fact that he actually gave homebrewing that kick to become, start commercializing. A lot of people are bringing that up now. And as you know, a way to remember him, you know? Oh, yeah remember Carter was the one that, you know, made home, homebrewing able to go commercial and stuff. 01:25:53.835 --> 01:26:08.614 Yeah. My dad was never a Jimmy Carter fan. Because you know, during--he was in the military at the time and he did a lot of pay cuts for the military. Of course, when Ronald Reagan came into play, we went into a lot of debt to give the military pay raises. 01:26:08.614 --> 01:26:09.784 Which they needed. 01:26:09.784 --> 01:26:16.005 But, he always says like, yeah, that's the only thing, good thing that Jimmy Carter did was legalized homebrewing. 01:26:16.005 --> 01:26:18.326 It certainly wasn't the fact that the brother brought up Billy Beer. 01:26:18.326 --> 01:26:21.164 Yeah. I was like. I was gonna say, I think it was more like his brother. Yeah. 01:26:21.164 --> 01:26:26.234 I think he had to apologize for Billy's beer. 01:26:26.234 --> 01:26:26.244 Billy Beer! 01:26:26.244 --> 01:27:03.305 Yeah. That's wild. Oh, Rick, this has been absolutely wonderful and very intriguing seeing your path through the ins and outs of the San Diego brewing industry from being brewer, but also working it through quality control. Because I think quality control, well, even proper packaging, those are unsung heroes. You know, if you don't treat the product right, it's not going to fly. And especially now after COVID with everybody expecting everything to be packaged, it makes a huge difference. 01:27:03.305 --> 01:27:55.814 No, it's, um, I think that's one of the biggest hurdles that many breweries run into is like really taking it seriously. You can't just like, put things in bottles or cans like you did when you were homebrewing. You really have to think about like, the steps that it takes to get there in order for it to be considered a high quality product. Going in. And of course quality is subjective. It really is. But the fact is, is that, you know, and of course the joke is that, quality is subjective, but it is the same definition as porn. I know it when I see it. You know. Or I know it when I taste it. So it's, you know, it's been hard at certain points to get to that point because a lot of breweries don't take quality issues seriously until it really seriously affects them or their brand. 01:27:55.814 --> 01:28:00.345 And some don't ever take it seriously. And that's the reasons they're no longer open. 01:28:00.345 --> 01:28:01.354 Exactly. Yeah. 01:28:01.354 --> 01:28:04.034 I mean there are some names I could name and I won't. 01:28:04.034 --> 01:28:29.354 Oh yeah, no, same, same. Yeah. But it's always the--it was always the case where if I knew they were trying to take it seriously and sometimes they just didn't either have the financial or the scientific expertise to go through it or the experience to do it, then it's like, I'll take you way more seriously because you want to, instead of some of these breweries that take pride that they don't, sometimes. And there was a few of those. 01:28:29.354 --> 01:28:34.854 Yeah. So, well, on that note, I will end the recording. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.xml BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blankemeier, Rick. Interview January 3rd, 2025. Description An account of the resource Rick Blankemeier was a quality manager at Stone Brewery from 2010 - 2017. Rick and his colleague, Robbie Chandler, were the first to win Stone's internal brewing competition which was called the Stone Spotlight in 2014. Rick and Robbie's beer was called Sprocketbeir and it was brewed and distributed nationally as part of the competition. Blankemeier was also the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times from 2017 - 2019 and the Quality Manager of Belching Beaver from 2019 - 2022. He also taught a brewing course at UCSD. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-067 Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry Stone Brewing Co. Belching Beaver Brewery Modern Times Beer + Coffee Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- Quality control Brewing industry -- Accidents Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-01-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rick Blankemeier Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marco University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Rick Blankemeier License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Brewchive(r) Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Michael De Maria Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bridget Blanshan OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Blanshan, Bridget. Interview April 26th, 2023. SC027-41 01:11:22 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs ; Education, Higher ; Human rights ; San Marcos (Calif.) Bridget Blanshan Michael De Maria BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26.mp4 1:|29(8)|41(7)|54(13)|63(5)|77(7)|91(13)|101(12)|113(5)|124(4)|144(10)|158(13)|169(3)|182(15)|192(14)|205(7)|226(15)|235(2)|244(13)|254(7)|268(4)|282(12)|292(9)|301(5)|317(12)|328(3)|341(8)|350(12)|358(13)|376(4)|392(6)|401(15)|412(4)|423(11)|427(6)|438(8)|447(12)|474(8)|494(10)|509(12)|517(13)|529(11)|542(14)|553(11)|565(7)|580(6)|600(11)|612(14)|627(11)|635(10)|652(10)|661(6)|675(8)|684(10)|705(3)|719(5)|740(15)|751(4)|761(7)|770(9)|787(5)|797(3)|810(10)|823(5)|845(4)|855(12)|866(7)|876(2)|885(4)|916(8)|924(15)|936(16)|953(6)|961(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/64050652e0eb6e5394c893ea21cb13c0.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and Educational Background Michael De Maria introduces Bridget Blanshan, Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos, and asks about her educational background. Blanshan discusses her background beginning with her bachelor's in business management from Iowa State, working at San Diego State, and obtaining her master's from University of San Diego. 0 305 First Impressions of CSUSM Blanshan recounts her experience joining CSUSM after eleven years at San Diego State University. In particular, Blanshan discusses her role in the development of the University Village Apartments and student residential life overall. As on-campus housing emerged, Blanshan noted the shift in demographics as more younger students began enrolling. The foundations of student life on-campus were beginning around the time Blanshan joined CSUSM, which offered her a unique perspective on its development. 0 575 A Call for Student Centers Blanshan recalls her 2002 article "Vision 2010" whereby she proclaimed the need for multicultural (or cross-cultural) centers on college campuses. She cites the differing needs of students who find community through various means, whether that be Greek Life, sports, arts, or student centers ; identities have to be validated and confirmed. Blanshan discusses the importance of understanding inclusivity and diversity. 0 922 Social Climate Prior to Multicultural Center After stressing her singular perspective, Blanshan considers the differences between the urban San Diego with a more-conservative San Marcos region. In such a region, how might queer students, for instance, be under serviced if they do not have a safe space to express their identities? CSUSM student centers had their foundation in the Multicultural Center. 0 1182 Diversity at CSUSM Blanshan details how the Cross-Cultural Center and other student identity-focused centers exemplify the notion of diversity at CSUSM and how intersectionality reminds us to recognize the unique identities of every individual. Blanshan also discusses how centers on campus offer students a safe space to engage with inclusive and diverse communities which represent their multifaceted identities. Blanshan notes the importance of unity through both shared and different identities. 0 1414 Blanshan's Participation with the CCC Blanshan recalls the handful of initiatives and events that Blanshan directly organized with the CCC, including a first-week student welcome and the Multicultural Student Leadership Council. The former stressed the importance of recognizing and creating diverse spaces to be inclusive. The latter was a weekend retreat for students. 0 1766 Activism Through the CCC Blanshan emphasizes the importance of synergy among CSUSM student centers, and how with their unique communities, goals, and demands, they work together to promote the acceptance of diversity and thus a more inclusive experience on campus. She further discusses the Black Student Center, the Women and Gender Equity Center, the Latin /x Center, the Pride Center, and others that come provide space for student activism. Blanshan elaborates on how these centers are both a result and a factor in student activism. 0 2144 Opposition to Diversity &amp ; Inclusivity Blanshan recounts opposition to her work for student diversity and inclusivity. "Challenging the status quo leaves others feeling excluded or blamed," according to Blanshan, and it is important to hear and include those doubtful voices in conversations of progress. In the 21st century, workplaces are increasingly diverse and Blanshan stresses the importance of recognizing diversity to create inclusivity, and acceptance of those with differences as opposed to mere tolerance. 0 2481 Favorite Memories Blanshan recalls the weekend retreats with students among her favorite memories. Being able to engage in open dialogues with a diverse community of students reinforced Blanshan's work in promoting inclusivity. She also enjoyed the development of the center itself under then-director, Floyd Lai. 0 2691 Blanshan's Doctorate and Dissertation The findings of Blanshan's 2007 dissertation (A study in multicultural awareness of residence hall directors in California colleges) are discussed. Blanshan cites the influence of Pope and Reynolds' conception of multicultural awareness, knowledge, and skill ; this multifaceted approach informed her study, which found moderately high levels of awareness across California campuses. 0 2911 Cross-Cultural Center and Student Retention Fondly remembering her experience with Dr. Gregory Toya, Blanshan recalls his association between Cross-Cultural Centers and student retention. Within this, she recalls a framework by Nancy Schlosberg whereby those who feel important and represented, are more likely to become or remain engaged. Blanshan discusses how recognizing and managing marginalization should be a cornerstone of the CCC. 0 3181 CCC Change Over Time and Professional Impact Blanshan recounts the center's evolution over time, starting with the change from Multicultural to Cross-Cultural Center. Blanshan discusses the foundation of the Activists Lab, where students engage in dialogues which challenge societal norms. Additionally, Blanshan defines how the center impacted her work as a professional, specifically in her role as Title IX Coordinator. 0 3529 The Cross-Cultural Center and other identity-specific centers Regarding the Cross-Cultural Center's coexistence with other student centers at CSUSM. Blanshan notes that the various student centers themselves recognize intersectionality and the individuality of each human experience, and that the Cross-Cultural Center allows students to "unpack unique areas of historical tension." Blanshan discusses that how issues evolve over time impact the roles of various centers, including the CCC, and that no center exists independently. 0 3768 Currently Underrepresented Communities Blanshan discusses underrepresented communities at CSUSM, including any student organization not affiliated with a center. Blanshan references Asian and Pacific Islander and American Indian students who cannot readily identify with a space on campus. While the Cross-Cultural Center provides space and resources to those underrepresented communities, Blanshan discusses the potential for future space at CSUSM for identity-based student centers. 0 4062 Advice for Student Advocacy For those seeking a career in student advocacy, Blanshan recommends an awareness of oneself and others ; focusing upon the motivation behind leadership informs the practice of advocacy for others. To make positive change, Blanshan thinks self-reflection is imperative. 0 Bridget Blanshan is Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos. In this interview, Blanshan discusses her educational &amp ; professional background, student leadership development, and diversity and inclusivity on campus. De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I'm a graduate research assistant with Kellogg Library at CSU (Cal State University) San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Bridget Blanshan, Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator here at CSU San Marcos. The date is April twenty-sixth, and the time is 1:36 p.m. So, Bridget, thank you for joining us today to discuss your involvement with the history of the Cross-Cultural Center, as well as talk about some other programs that you've implemented at CSU San Marcos. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: The first question I wanted to ask you was actually about your academic background. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: So what led you to your interest in student advocacy and ultimately administration in higher ed. (education)? Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Good question. So Michael, thanks for the time today. This is gonna be a fun conversation. So, I have a bachelor's degree in business management which I received from Iowa State University. That's the state in which I was born and raised through my college graduation. And while--as many of us, it occurs for many of us who go into student affairs work, it was really during my college experience that I interacted with student affairs professionals. I was involved on campus, and I thought, this is really rewarding for me, and this seems like an interesting career. Let me, let me see if I like it. Let me try it on. And so I had been active as a, a student leader and as a student employee, Resident Assistant was what they were called at that time in student housing at Iowa State (University). And I really enjoyed that role. And so, I spoke with my supervisor and asked what she thought, and she talked with me about kind of how to get my foot in the door and take a job to, to see if that was something I was interested in. So, I did that and I started as a Hall Coordinator at San Diego State University in 1990. I expected to be there just for a couple of years and then go back to the Midwest. But I really fell in love with the state and the CSU mission, which is really around as, as I think many of us are aware, really around being the educator for the state of California. Really providing an opportunity for the diverse student, um students across our state to get a college degree, many of whom are first in their family to do that. And that was something that I, I was very--really realized I was very passionate about. So, I then went on knowing that I would need a master's degree, at least, to continue in Student Affairs and work on a college campus. So, in 1993, I started a master's degree in a program called Educational Leadership at the University of San Diego. And I graduated with my master's degree in 1995. And that was great because I was able to match the, the core requirements, which was about half of the program, with relevant electives, which for me was able to do for example, some of the programs that they offered in their college student personnel or college student counseling program. So that was a great combination. And I continued working at San Diego State until 2001, at which point I came to CSUSM and started my, my tenure here. And then in 2004, I started a doctoral program at the University of Laverne, and it was a doctoral program in Organizational Leadership and found that really rewarding as well and really, really relevant. It's very much a hands-on applied program. So my educational background, which was really the focus of your question, is in management and leadership studies. I've been able to work in, either through courses that I've elected to take or the projects that I've done, really looking at organizations through a, a lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). And so I'm very grateful for being able to have done that. De Maria: Very, very cool. And very impressive. You've been at CSUSM since 2001. I'd like to know what your first impression of CSUSM was, and then in particular, what work you felt like needed to be done there. Blanshan: Sure. So, as I mentioned, I was at San Diego State for eleven years working in student housing. While I was there, about midway through those eleven years, SDSU celebrated its’ centennial. And so then starting at, at CSUSM, and the position that I came to perform was what was then called the Director of Student and Residential Life. And in particular, we were bringin--University Village Apartments (UVA)--that was about concurrent when the time I started, that was approved to be constructed. So that was a major focus of getting the campus ready to have on-campus student housing, and students who were with us 24/7 rather than students commuting at the point as they did. And so coming to, from a(n) over one hundred-year-old campus to a campus that was really new--I'm not quite sure that, I don't think we had celebrated our fifteenth anniversary yet, or we did shortly around the time I arrived. I was, I really enjoyed the students that I met, and I found that the, the campus, the employees were really, really committed to the campus and to the student body. We had only been admitting first year students. It, we started, the campus started by admitting transfer students, and then over, within say the next five to seven years, started admitting first year students. So one of the things that I noticed, from a student life perspective, is it, we didn't have some of the common experiences that first year students on other campuses had. We, there, there were very few night and weekend kind of activities, and which only made sense because many of our transfer students had families of their own, the average age had been, of a student in the early days of CSUSM, had been in the late twenties, so around twenty-eight or twenty-nine years old. So that's, that's very different than the, the college experience that we're offering today. And so, I really looked for ways to start building the foundation, for that (student experience offered at CSUSM today). So at the time, Student and Residential Life included, so residential life, getting ready for student housing and the experience they, that students would have there. We had at the time, two fraternities and two sororities. So we had foundations of fraternity and sorority life. New student orientation was part of the department, as were student organizations. I wanna say within my first, first year or two, we had, I think all of thirty-one student organizations. So it was, again, in its, in its infancy a bit. And then we also, shortly thereafter, started leadership programs. And so that was kind of what we were building, and trying to build that with a vision as to the students that the university would come to serve, as opposed to the students that, that we had served in the, the beginning of the campus. So that's maybe a long answer to your question of what did I think we needed to do? And it was kind of set our, set ourselves up with the building blocks, so that we could serve a student body that was very diverse in terms of age. So at that point, we were, our diversification was to be the average age coming younger, students who lived on campus, and a true diverse student body ; that would those kind of build those co-curricular foundations so that it was already, there wouldn't be impediments to students wanting to do things that really met their interests more than, than kind of how things had been outlined in the early years. De Maria: I see. So, a lot of new and exciting developments, obviously some growing pains, right? Blanshan: Oh, absolutely. Sure. De Maria: Cool. From there, I'd like you to take me back to 2002. So, in that year, you authored a memo titled “Vision 2010” that essentially espoused the need for, you know, a multicultural center on campus. So I just wanted to ask, what were your aspirations for offering that memo? And then why was there--you did explain it a bit in shifting demographics--but just why there was a need for a multicultural center on campus at that time. Blanshan: Yeah, I think, I think for me, and I mentioned this you know, as I shared with you about my education, I think it's both through my education of being able to look at, at leadership and organizations. And I would say that not only for being a workplace as a university, but also being a--a place, a college campus, is really looking at things through a diversity, equity, and inclusion lens. And so, making certain that we were continuing to evolve in a way where the students who were coming to study with us could feel that they could make a home or a connection somewhere. And so, it's, it's really to the notion of finding a sense of belonging. Some students would find that through a fraternity or sorority other students would find that through Associated Students (Incorporated, student governance organization). I felt very much that, two things ; one was that some students would find a place that specifically was designed to be multicultural affirming and in that, that use of even the term “culture,” we intentionally set it very broadly because again, this was before we had any, any identity center on campus that was only student focused. So, this was before the Women's Center, which then evolved to the Gender Equity Center, now, Women's and Gender Equity Center, (it) was before the Pride Center. So, it really was defined “cultural” very, very broadly. So how people's experiences, their community, their sense of identity, and how we could really intentionally affirm that, so that students kind of felt a sense of belonging. I, going back to thinking about, you know, student development as they engage outside the classroom and thinking about, so I mentioned we were also developing a student leadership development program. So for me in, in, you know, being situated in a new millennium, right, in 2001, 2002, the only way to really do that authentically in a way that met student needs, but also spoke to students, but also prepared them for life after college, was to have a multicultural focus on leadership. And so not only what, what is the, the end goal of our leadership endeavors, but how do we do, how do we do leadership and prepare students to lead in very diverse teams, very diverse communities and, and do that in a variety of different ways. So as they want to go out and engage in change making, how might they do that? So that was where, one of the reasons that I wrote that which is so interesting now in 2023 to, to think back of writing “Vision 2010.” But to--I think it was also part of that foundation building that I was talking about before. How do we really create this so that we're intentionally offering as much as we can for places for students to plug-in and feel like CSUSM is theirs? And it's theirs not only as a place to belong, but in a place where they can engage and make it even better. The other thing that I would say, not only in my education, but eleven years at San Diego State in student housing, I had an amazing opportunity to be at a very diverse institution. And in student housing in particular, it's a very unique kind of learning lab for people to come together and live together, a wide variety, a wide diversity of students. So we had to be very, very intentional about preparing our staff, preparing our student leaders to do those roles in a very diverse environment. And so that very much affected kind of how I saw my work in Student Affairs. And a lot of the endeavors that we did throughout the 1990s to enable students, much like I described with a Multicultural Programs area, but to enable students to feel at home, especially students from communities and identities who were often marginalized. And so really pro- doing that in a very intentional way. De Maria: Absolutely. So it sounds like with the founding of that Multicultural Center you'd be essentially addressing some qualitative gaps in the student experience. Not only on the emotional kind of community front, but also allowing students to gain some professional experiences and background too. Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Exactly. De Maria: Very cool. Now I'd like to take you, I'd like for you to take me back to 2003. So what was the social climate of the campus like prior to the establishment of that first Multicultural Center? Blanshan: Wow, that's a great question. And, and I can only, in order to be fair, you know, this is, this is only my perspective on it. So I can't speak for how other people would've described the social climate. And clearly this is informed from my eleven years at San Diego State. So being a very large urban university in the middle of a very large city (San Diego)--San Marcos, at the time the region, North County region, was I would say much more socially and politically, religiously to some extent, conservative. Compared to the broader San Diego County. So that, I think we felt--I felt that, I'll speak for myself, I felt that at CSUSM, that and I think the university was kind of coming to terms with how do we, how do we serve our community knowing that there, that this is a more conservative area within the county. I think we had students who I knew div-- especially some of the, the diversity and i--of identities that aren't visible. Um I of course assumed that for example, we had LGBTQ+ students, but I didn't know them because there wasn't necessarily a student organization. So there wasn't the visibility or the space, as I was more accustomed to at San Diego State. And, and I don't think it was out of any intent to exclude anyone. I think it was just in the building, the very formative years of the institution, and really building the academic programs and coming in and it just was really the time in the institution's development to really focus on kind of broadening the co-curricular experiences for our students. So it was, it was certainly a transition for me. But I also, I would say I also found such wonderful professional colleagues who were of like-mind. And we, we came together and partnered a great deal toward these initiatives. So we had in, the department's name shifted, within my leadership of it, from Student and Residential Life to Student Life and Leadership. And we enjoyed amazing partnerships with Associated Students (Inc). And that's not always something that one takes for granted on a college campus. But I think we were able to come together, clarify you know, how we each add to the campus, to the student experience, and how we can support each other in doing that. So it was, there was a lot of synergy there. For that collaboration. I reported to the Dean of Students at the time, who very much shared this vision and supported it with everything that he could. Certainly the leadership in (Division of) Student Affairs were supportive as well. So I think it was, we were, we were just in that place of the development of the campus where it, I guess the way to sum it up is to say just because something didn't exist didn't mean there wasn't support for it. It just was that growth trajectory that the campus was taking. De Maria: Totally. And it, obviously with necessary growth, that's very cool to hear about. In a 2006 issue of The Pride (student) newspaper, while introducing a talk from Reverend Dr. Jamie Washington, you describe Cal State San Marcos students as “having good fortune for being in a place where not everyone looks like them.” I'd like to know how programs at the Cross-Cultural Center, or at the time the Multicultural Center reinforced that notion and what those early programs looked like. Blanshan: Sure. That's--you're reminding me of things I've forgotten (laughs). One of the things that the Associate Director at the time, so the founding Associate Director Dilcie Perez, one of her first initiatives was, and this was another partnership with the Dean of Students Office, with all of Student and Residential Life at the time and ASI (Associated Student Inc.) was, she built the Multicultural Student Leadership Council. And so, within that council there were, started really with looking at student organizations that were built around identity. So, that could have been one, our, if we had a Women's Studies Student Association, which we did back in the day, if we had an African-American Student Association, so some of the predecessors of, you know, BSU (Black Student Union) or our LGBTQ student org (Pride Center), other organizations that were built around religious identity and expression. So really looking at purposely bringing people together, knowing that their, that their focus of their organization, their identities may be different, but the organization had a common mission which was to promote student belonging, advocate for student needs. And so how could they support each other or be allies for each other as they each sought to do that independently, but then also where the, where are the ways that they could promote that collectively as well. So that was, that was just one example. I think, you know when we had Dr. Washington, I remember, I remember that year and I remember the, we had a wonderful turnout of student leaders to go through that experience. And I remember thinking that and he was really focusing on diversity and leadership and equity and, and equity minded leadership. And what are, how do we get to know each other in all of the identities that we all share and that those in which we’re different. And the intersectionality that all of us represent. And so I think I just remember looking across the students that were assembled that evening and thinking, this, this is, this is the kind of opportunity that without the diversity of our student body, that opportunity would not exist. And so how do we, how do we take that and make that a transformative experience being the ultimate goal? De Maria: Totally. Yeah. And I think one theme that we've already touched on is, you know, the value of that educational experience, but also as a professional experience too. So being in diverse places oftentimes makes us just better at what we do. And then regarding your participation in, you know, Multicultural Center programs or Cross-Cultural Center programs I'd like to know about specific programs that were put on and then what your experiences were like, kind of engaging with them or directing with them. Blanshan: Sure. Oh, there were a handful. We did, we had started some, and I'm not going to remember the name of it, but a kind of a Cross-Cultural welcome for incoming students is kind of one of the, the events that we would offer at week, what are now referred to as Weeks of Welcome. Again, I think creating space where students could just check it out, see what it's like, 'cause that's really, you know it, we want students to explore as much of the campus communities as they can as soon as they get here. And so, I think not only to experience and to hear but also to experience that through this event, we're symbolizing the importance of not only diversity, but inclusion. And, and we often put those two words together, but they're, they're different, right? I think diversity, diversity exists, and it doesn't mean that it, it exists without our collective effort, but just because someplace is diverse doesn't mean it's inclusive. And so how do we symbolize that, have that be kind of a, a cornerstone program that kicks-off a student's experience at CSUSM, and then how do we just start and build on that? So, certainly doing hosting and co-hosting that for several years is, is one example. We talked about the Multicultural Student Leadership Council that we would do overnight retreats. That evolved over time into the better part of a weekend. So a Friday through, kind of like midday Friday through midday Sunday experience for students. And I think that kind of deep dive and being part of that was always really, really rewarding. Again, very harken back to a lot of the work that I had done at, at San Diego State. So really kind of bringing that in, for students to be able to do a deep dive and for them to create space where it's--it's where learning is okay and discomfort is expected. And to, you know, really hopefully broaden their viewpoints, or affirm those that may not be held by many or most students. And so I think doing that (overnight retreats), I think there were, oh gosh so many things as we brought out, brought on student housing as well that I've, I will always describe student housing as a high risk, but also high reward offering. A high risk in that if, again looking at it through the lens of a diverse student body, that if there's, if we're not there intentionally assisting students to live together through those differences, then the risk of someone feeling very targeted and excluded can be really high. The counterpoint to that is if that's done well, and of course that's, that part of doing that well is the, is students themselves being open to it. That can be an amazingly impactful experience. So, I think working very intentionally in partnership of--with our Resident Advisor, training with our professional staff and being part of the selection and training of those folks. Having that voice at the table that really is looking at how are we preparing for the student experience through a lens of, diversity and equity and inclusion. Or lenses, I should say. And that's not to say that we always got it right. But it, but there's not a chance of getting it right if there's not some intentionality to it. De Maria: Totally, and just acknowledging the difficulty of including that student housing component with Student Life, it, you know, sounds like you needed everyone to be all in, not just to provide that good experience, but also to provide the proper one for certain individuals. Blanshan: Right. Right. Yep. Yeah, it was, it was a, I reflect so fondly on those early days because it very much was we regard(less), everyone had a bit of a different role, right? Different responsibilities. But in order for anyone to succeed, it required everybody. Simply because of the size of our departments or the size of our institution. And we figured out how to do that well. So that actually was a rewarding outcome just to be kind of in community with our colleagues to support whatever endeavor was, was happening at the time. De Maria: Very cool. For my next question, I wanted to know about instances of activism you witnessed. Or participated in that stemmed from the Cross-Cultural Center slash Multicultural Center. Blanshan: Wow. It's hard to pinpoint something that stemmed only from Multicultural Programs, 'cause again, I was talking about that collaboration, that synergy. So I would maybe hope you'll allow me to go maybe a little bit broader. Some of the things that, that we just kind of accept as business as usual if you will, are the fact that we have the number of identity related centers that we do. So back in the day, at the start of the Cross-Cultural, well again, what we call Multicultural Programs and we had a very, very small space. But it then I think, and through our partnership with ASI (Associated Students Inc.) and their own commitment, then that generated a Women's Center, then generated the LGBTQ+ Pride Center. And then we, if you look at the (University) Student Union (CSUSM building), if you were to walk the third floor of the Student Union, you would see the Cross-Cultural Center, the Latin /x Center, Women's and Gender Equity, and the Pride Center. You'd go up another floor and see, see the Black Student Center and more centers to come. Certainly we have the Veteran’s Center and the, it's space where it's at. I think, I like to think that Multicultural Programs laid the, laid the ground for that to grow. Because I think having a space to come together and people to see what happens when students come together, then kind of lends itself to now we've opened the door, let's talk about what we want this to look like. And I, and those occurred by like I said, either through ASI or through student organizations and student leaders, really activating with the university leadership to make sure that they happen, in the case of Latinx and BSC (Black Student Center). So I think I look at it that way. I look at, at the fact that all the centers are in general in the same location. And that was very intentional. They're--we didn't split them out by like their home department, if you will. It was, “How do we place these so students are going to engage them as, as much as we can get them to engage?” And so it's no accident that they're on the third floor (of the University Student Union) together, right under food. 'Cause we know students will come in for food. I think things like University Hour (no classes held between 12 to pm Tuseday and Thursday) is that, you know, how does that relate to you know, Multicultural Programs? I think it relates because we also were introducing programs and events that where we could articulate the student learning associated with those programs and events. To reserve, you know, twelve to twelve fifty a couple of days a week in a college in a university's academic schedule is no small sacrifice. That is, can be considered prime teaching time. And I think it was because we had laid a foundation that we will, we’re able to say it's not that education is stopping from twelve to twelve fifty, it's just we're enabling students ; in particular, those students who didn't live with us weren't able because of maybe they had family and work and, and all kinds of things, but they were likely on campus so they could have an experience that they otherwise wouldn't have. Sorry, I can think of you know pointing to something as now that we see as large--that we can only envision, as large as the USU (University Student Union) I could see the vacant ground from my office window of where it was, where it now was built and sitting ; to something that I think, you know, University Hour is tradition here. I think presently the Student Leadership and Involvement Center which is kind of an evolvement of what we started with Student and Residential Life. They also continue to offer Women's Leadership Symposium. So that was something we also launched about the same time leadership from a leadership and cultural place. Because I think when we broadly consider a cultural experience or an identity related experience, I think that's where we get into notions that gender and how we are socialized to be however we identify in our gender is a really important factor to how we engage with the campus and the broader world. So. De Maria: Yeah, and I really, that really resonates with me in terms of thinking of the establishment of those centers as activism. Ultimately, all activism is meant to affect an institutional change. So it's just very empowering to hear that there were so many individuals who were empowered to do that and kind of follow in the Multicultural Center's footsteps in that respect. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: Well so, for my next question on a bit of a different note- Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: I managed to find a mem- or a letter, I guess, from FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education. And that was a letter that you were cc'd (carbon copied) on regarding a student publication called the Koala. So the Koala, just giving a brief summary for anyone listening to this interview, was a satirical newspaper on CSUSM campus that was known for publishing questionable, lewd, some would even say obscene content about people in the community and would sometimes lampoon, you know certain efforts from student organizations to do a lot of (laughs) to affect change positively. Blanshan: Right. De Maria: So my question isn't necessarily about the Koala, but it is about opposition. So I do want to ask you if there were groups, or if there was prominent opposition? And how that manifested itself on campus. Blanshan: And when you, you say opposition, are you thinking opposition to establishing Multicultural Programs, or as we kind of went out and did various programmatic initiatives, or? De Maria: I'm referring to cha- yeah, so challenging the necessity for Multicultural Programs as well as the outcomes of those programs. Blanshan: Hmm. You know, I, I think we see so many examples of that, that opposition today. I think I, as we set out to kind of create you know the vision and mission for Multicultural Programs, it was--how do I say this? I think there are different roles for different change makers to move society forward. So I think there are some that are, are very focused on being almost, there's a role for opposing existing institutions. There's also a role for folks operating inside an institution to elevate something, which is kind of how I would think we did this with Multicultural Programs, bringing the program to life, bringing, you know creating even more space for it. I think there wasn't opposition to it organizationally, and I don't--so this is the catch with trying to mem--you know, go back 20 years in memory. I don't know that there was vocal or visible pushback, but I do think anytime we're talking about social justice and equity, it can be an inclusive space for some, and it also because it's challenging the status quo leaves others feeling excluded or blamed or it, that's where some of that discomfort happens. And I think we very much try to include, even voices who might say, you know, “Why do we need this?” Why do we--because I think it was, it's always being able to say to a student who may say, “I don't think we need this on, on campus. I don't think the campus should be spending resources in this way.” Being able to sit down and say, “Okay, let's talk about your vision for your career. Where, do you hope to work?” And, you know, learning more about the, the individual. “Who do you think your coworkers will be? Who do you think your boss might be? Who do you think, if you were if you have constituents that your product or services is going out to target, who will they be? And think about how these experiences might better prepare you to be successful in that environment that you are in that future that you're envisioning for yourself.” So I think trying to include, include everybody? While knowing that the impact of the program, the experience, or the initiative is gonna be different based on how people see themselves. And how they perceive their place to be in the campus community or the world. De Maria: Totally. And once again, you kind of touched on that concept of social justice, diversity, and equity kind of being necessary as something that we kind of can't avoid living in the modern world. So again, definitely resonates with me and is definitely a pertinent message to anyone who might not see the value of certain programs like that. Regarding the Cross-Cultural Center itself, I'd like you to tell me what your favorite memory is. Blanshan: Hmm. I have many. I think certainly something that comes to mind are the, when we started the retreats, and we kind of, this was, when I say “we,” it was a very broad “we,” so it was folks who maybe their- our positions didn't envision us being on a weekend retreat with students. But because people had either an area of expertise or a passion or experience in another role at another campus or another, you know, organization such as like Anti-Defamation League or something like that, that they could really come together, brought a group of people together that didn't always work with each other, and to really offer something that could be so transformative. And I think it's just, and also being with students as they go through an experience like that is a really--it's a unique opportunity of getting to kind of participate in or watch from the side of students grappling with concepts, grappling with their emotions around whatever it is we're talking about. Creating space to hear each other. You know, those are, those are just really powerful experiences. So that, that would absolutely be a favorite. I don't think I could name the favorite, but definitely a favorite. It's also been a pleasure to watch the space grow and watch it grow in terms of now I think some of the, the great work that Floyd (Lai)'s (Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) been doing with us for, for many years, but like the Activist Lab (Cross-Cultural Center work space) or you know, working on, on preparing people to have difficult dialogues and how to do that. I think I think it's so critically, it's been critically important the whole time. But I, as I reflect on kind of what we're hit with in the media today about our, our own country and the world, that's not something we're seeing. We see people who you know, have very spiteful, hateful reactions to even ideological differences. And so, I think being able to, even if it's a few students at a time, it's enabling someone to have a conversation or see a conversation where we can have very, very passionate differences, but we can still respect each other. And in an ideal place learn from each other. De Maria: Totally. And that also relates back to what you were mentioning regarding diversity and inclusion not being the same thing and not being a package deal all the time. So I can definitely see that importance of inclusion, you know, even if it does lead to those difficult conversations or acknowledging some not so favorable things about our own behavior, things that we've said in the past. Blanshan: Yeah (talking over each other). Yeah. De Maria: So I, I totally get that. In shifting gears a little bit here, I do want to talk about your doctorate. As well as your 2007 dissertation in particular. So that was (a) study of the multicultural awareness of professional residence hall directors in California colleges. And in your own words, I just wanted to know what your findings were. Blanshan: Hmm. Findings were that it, the instrument was a self-support, or self-report survey. So I don't think any person who's done research would tell you what findings are without acknowledging that there are limitations to any method. I think, so within that self-report, what we got back were fairly I would say moderate to high levels of multicultural awareness. And so the notion, if you look at, you know, “Why is that important?” It's a construct by Pope and Reynolds, back in the early two thousands, of a construct of Multicultural Competence in Student Affairs (Advancing Social and Inclusion ; book by Raechele L. Pope and Amy L. Reynolds). And so, Pope and Renolds talk about that being multicultural awareness, multicultural knowledge, and multicultural skills. And so that awareness, knowledge of skills has to be there. But awareness of others and awareness of myself, if that's not there, then we're kind of--then we can't get to this place of multicultural competence, which in the dissertation I really argued was an essential aspect to student affairs work because of the diversity of our student bodies. So it was a fairly, like I said moderate to high in terms of the quantitative. I think as I reflect on it, not a surprise, although you know, you never know what you, you don't know what you don't know until you learn it. I probably got just as much out of the sliver of qualitative part of that instrument of learning where people believe their awareness came from. So, was it “I lived abroad as a child.” I think that was a response. There were, and it just, the range because it showed just a different level of reflection of, “What do I think this is? And where do I think this (multicultural competency) came from in me?” I could rate myself highly, but someone else may not agree. Right? So, there's the opportunity for other research of validating this self-report with peer or supervisorial ratings as well. But I think asking people, “Where did that (multicultural competency) come from?” was a really interesting aspect of that. De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And going from there I also wanted to ask you what your relationship was like with Dr. Gregory Toya (current Associate Dean of Students at CSUSM)? In particular I want to know if-- what your involvement was in his study regarding the importance of cultural spaces on college campuses and its relationship to student retention. Blanshan: Right. You see me smiling. I have a very fond place, for Greg. He was--I started as the Associate VP (Vice President), Interim Associate VP and Dean of Students in 2006. Right about March and April of that year, and in June or July Dr. Toya joined as the Associate Dean. And so, he was just a wonderful collegial partner. And I was able to--he started his doctoral program shortly, maybe a couple of years into his time on our campus. He had come from cross-cultural center work. That was his most recent position, before coming to us (CSUSM). And one of the reasons that I was interested in Greg joining our team, and selecting him, was because of that experience. And so, to see him then study that for his dissertation made all kinds of sense in the world. And I appreciated his thought about not only the association of a Cross-Cultural Center on student retention, but I think he also looked at what are some of those aspects of leadership or leaders in Cross-Cultural Centers that contribute to that (student retention). And you know, it was again, not a surprise because one of, to hire people into student affairs work, we typically will ask them to spend better part of a day or sometimes a day and a half with us interviewing on campus. And that typically will involve presentation. And so the presentation he was asked to provide, so I'm going back to 2006 before he even started his doctorate, was to ask him to name a student development theory or framework that he felt he would rely on to do the associate dean job as it was then defined. So he was working with students through student conduct, working through students with students on, students that were considering withdrawing from the university, and some other aspects of what was happening in the Dean of Students Office at the time. And he chose actually one of my favorite frameworks too. It's by Nancy Schlosberg. And I can't spell that out loud for you today, but I can get you the citation. But Schlosberg talks about marginality and mattering, and I don't recall his dissertation well enough, but that's kind of a foundational thing of: if I believe that I matter, then I'm more likely to participate, I'm more likely to persevere when things are really difficult because I matter to the campus, or I matter to someone on campus. As opposed to: if I feel like I don't make a difference at all, and I'm kind of experiencing something from a, you know, I'm experiencing even, not that I even worse than, “I don't make a difference.” But if I'm--if I feel like I'm being marginalized on my campus, then those things are less likely to happen. Those, all those things where we ask, because we're already asking so much of a student who may experience marginalization just to come back to campus day-to-day, let alone go through things that just happen in life when a student's studying for a college degree. And so, I think I was thrilled to work with Greg as he did his doctoral program and his dissertation and remember him, his (dissertation) defense as well. It was, it was a great day. De Maria: That's awesome. And I do have a few more questions left. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: All relating to the Cross-Cultural Center itself. So my next question, just in general how has the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time? Blanshan: Hmm. Well I think, you know even something, it's a name but I think names are incredibly important. You know, going from Multicultural Programs to Cross-Cultural Center, I think as we started to see more, whether it be services, spaces, organizations kind of become present on campus I think it could focus more on that cross-cultural aspect as opposed to providing a home base for everyone. Not that it shouldn't still be that, I would want any student, and I'm not the only one who would want this, any student to feel comfortable going to the Cross-Cultural Center. But I think some of the work like I was mentioning before, the Activist Lab, some of the space where we really can get into those dialogues across differences and, “What the heck is a dialogue anyway and how is that different than a debate?” You know I think that's, that gives it more space, more programmatic and physical space to be able to do those things. So that's been great to see it (the Cross-Cultural Center) evolve and kind of redefine its role over the last two decades. De Maria: Absolutely. And it's also been very enjoyable for me to hear about the genesis of a lot of these programs, especially as I'm embarking on these interviews and kind of hearing about things that happened, but not necessarily knowing the beginning of that. So, it's definitely a rich history, and I'm also glad it's been around for so long. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: And my last few questions are about the future of the Cross-Cultural Center. But how have your experiences with (the) Cross-Cultural Center impacted you as a professional? And what kind of programs do you see yourself working on as a result of those experiences? Blanshan: You know, I think--I think for me you know, from its, even its inception, it was a kind of a sense, a place of where I could kind of recharge myself. So, because it was a space that was overtly designed for, to be welcoming of people across differences, being welcome of myriad identities. And so, you know just talking about a very personal impact to me is it's a great place to say, “okay, I may be having, maybe it's a difficult day, but you know, I can just stop in and say hello and talk with a staff member.” And especially, you know, early on. And that was, that was a highlight. Like I said, it's been enriching to, you know, years ago participate in some of the retreats or actually some of the training that was offered and partner with different people to do that. I think I still--I enjoy supporting it. I think you know for the past you know, as you think about, as I think about my role as a Title IX Coordinator, and then also someone who oversees the University's response to concerns of discrimination and harassment, I see that as just another function within our stated values to be an inclusive community. And so, it's not directly related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but I think I hold on to initiatives like the Cross-Cultural Center as those initiatives. For example, among our students where we can enable them to feel included rather than, like I was saying before, marginalized which sometimes means that they believe they've experienced discrimination or harassment. I think, so it's all that is very um, it’s just kind of all blended in there. I couldn't, in working at the CSU, so I talked about working at CSUSM and San Diego State, you know spending my entire career at the CSU isn't an accident, for me. It's very much about the mission of the system. And to me that mission has to be informed through the values of inclusion and equity. And so I can't imagine that--I can't imagine being fulfilled by my work if that, if I weren't able to do that. De Maria: Totally. And that's also resonating with me regarding the establishment of the Cross-Cultural Center, kind of being like a manifestation of that mission, as well as like representing future programs that the University's gonna commit to. So, (I) totally get that. Um, going forward, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific spaces on campus? Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. I think it, I think it's a reflection of intersectionality, in one part, right? And it's not to say that our identity centers aren't inclusive of the many identities that are represented within students who go to the Latin /x Center, or the Black Student Center. So I think we're all, we have many intersections within our, each of us individually. But I think the Cross-Cultural Center being able to look at and potentially unpack some unique areas of historical tension, provide space for if we have student organizations existing on our campus that those communities in our world may be at conflict. How can the Cross-Cultural center help them to kind of find common purpose? Even if they're representing potentially even two warring communities somewhere in the globe. I think (the) Cross-Cultural Center, if you look at it as leadership programs continue to be built out. Whether it's a, even as you, like we talked about the Women's Leadership Symposium and that being very specifically open to everyone, regardless of how a student identifies based on their gender. So being explicitly inclusive of women, men, and all genders that with which students identify, but to understand a unique, some of the historical and then the evolving issues for leadership as informed by experience and socialization based on gender. So I think, you know, that even something that looks, or people may perceive that this is this initiative, this Women's Leadership Symposium is only for women. There is a, there's a space for everyone. And so I think whether that's, you know building on intersectionality that we understand or--and or purposely really creating experiences for cross-cultural -- broadly defined -- exchange. I think, you know I think that's where it's going to continue to be essential to our campus. De Maria: Yeah. And it's very inspiring to recognize that there's still room for growth and for change in the (Cross-Cultural) Center, even though it you know has been so successful and so impactful. So obviously, you know people change (laughs), culture and societies change, methods of education change. So, it's awesome to recognize that that center can coexist, but also serve a specialized purpose at the same time. Blanshan: Yeah. I think the--expanding the centers that we offer on campus helps give each center potentially a more, I don't wanna say narrow, but more clarified purpose. More focused purpose maybe. But there has to be synergy and a very purposeful, intentional collaboration. So that we can provide what we want to for our students. De Maria: Absolutely. Blanshan: At least I think what we should provide to our students. De Maria: Absolutely. On a different note, what communities do you feel are currently underrepresented on campus? Blanshan: I know we have conversation about an American Indian student center. I think we also are in communication about an APIDA center, Asian Pacific Islander (Desi American). So I think those are meeting needs. I think we look at, I know there was a lot of conversation that went into what the center, that into the naming of the center, which is now the Women's and Gender Equity Center. I think the importance of women being explicitly included in the name is important. I think, and I think it's also critical that it's not, I don't wanna say just, that it's not only a Women's Center, because I think we need to also be able to symbolically and programmatically represent the spectrum of gender that we should be affirming in our campus community. I think our student, our student body, our campus community is, it's a microcosm of our world. So, I think there are, could be that, and if you were to look at some of our campus climate studies, you might see that certainly we have disability support services which provide amazing services for our students with disabilities. But do, are, is there more that we could do different from DSS (Disabled Student Services)? Or more like a, whether it's a more social aspect or a sense of belonging. You know, DSS has a very specific role to play, but is there more we could be doing on our campus? I think, I think we continue to grapple, like every campus does across the nation with issues of bias, discrimination, and violence, sexual misconduct, sexual harassment. I think, and I think that's something that we need to keep our eye on in terms of our prevention and education. Those are, experiences like that are often life-changing. And so, you know how do we work our best work to prevent them? And in the event that they're not prevented, how do we make sure that our intervention and our response is as effective as it can be? So, you know I think, and I think we're and every college campus is a human institution. And humans, we’re pretty fallible. And we're it's a, like I said a microcosm of a broader, a broader environment. So, I think there are always ways that we need to be asking the question that you just asked. So who do we, who do we think is experiencing marginalization? And how do we start creating multiple approaches? Because there's, there's not just there will never be a one-size fits all approach to that dilemma. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And that's what leads to those kind of like, difficult, I guess you'd call 'em, conversations about— Blanshan: Absolutely. De Maria: --affecting change and doing the work, basically (De Maria laughs) in order to do that. So, thank you for sharing those thoughts with me. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: And for my final question, I wanted to ask you personally, if someone is interested in pursuing a career in student advocacy or even social justice, what recommendations or tips would you give them? Blanshan: Hmm. That's a great question. I when I think of advocacy and I think of a career in something like social justice, and not a surprise, right? We talked about my educational background. So I think of many things in terms of leadership, right? I think one of the first things to be mindful of is, and I, and this is, this is also true in that little snippet I gave you about multicultural awareness, being an awareness of others, but also awareness of self. I think leadership, especially on something such as social justice, such as advocacy, is (that) it requires a consistent intention. A consistent attention to my own motivations, how I—kind of where are those things where I find that really feed my purpose, why I want to do this work, and how do I kind of refuel when I've had difficulty. But I think in leadership and in equ--diversity and equity and inclusion work, if we don't always have a mirror back on ourselves so that we could keep ourselves in check, I think it could start, we can, the impact of our work can start to go awry. And I don't know if that makes sense, but I think it's really trying to stay on, what do I think is needed to make positive change. Is this just my thought or have I consulted with others, especially those who disagree with me? To think through what--am I in a blind spot? And then to go out and do the work in a way that we can sustain the work personally and professionally. De Maria: Totally. And I think--I think it does take a community to affect that change. And going back to what you mentioned earlier about diversity versus inclusion, the marriage of those concepts, it requires us to include others and to make those decisions, not just as a sole member, but as a collective. Blanshan: Yeah. I think--I think critical friends are essential. So, yeah I, we always learn more from people who are willing to, I'll speak for myself. I always learn more from people who are willing to say, “I disagree with you, and here's why. And I think you're missing something.” Because that gets me, that stops me before I might do something that might have an impact that completely contradicts what my hope was. So. De Maria: Absolutely. Well thank you for sharing that with us, and that's gonna be the end of this interview. Bridget again, can't say enough how much I appreciate you taking time out for this. I think this is gonna be an excellent resource for anyone interested in the history of the Cross-Cultural Center or just looking for some inspiration in joining the field of student advocacy and social justice. So once again, thank you. Blanshan: Thank you, Michael. It was a pleasure. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26.xml BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blanshan, Bridget. Interview April 26th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Bridget Blanshan is Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos. In this interview, Blanshan discusses her educational & professional background, student leadership development, and diversity and inclusivity on campus. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-41 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bridget Blanshan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bridget Blanshan Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience