1 10 83 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ef3e26077a9cd553721a81e3601c74a5.pdf 1b64de495fbc1d9da248f576e1cde29f PDF Text Text LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Jennifer Ho: All right. Today is Friday, May 28th, 2021, at 10:07 a.m. I’m Jennifer Ho, archivist for Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, and today I’m interviewing Louis Adamsel for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Students Center and the CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Due to the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic, this interview is being conducted virtually. Louis, thanks for being here with me today. How are you doing? Louis Adamsel: I’m doing lovely. Great to be here. Thank you for the invite. Ho: Yeah. All right. So, let’s get right to it. Tell me about your childhood. Where were you born? Where did you grow up? Adamsel: So, where I was born and ultimately where I grew up are two different places. I was born and I spent early part of my childhood in Watts, California, Watts, Los Angeles, so beautiful place. Got early experiences of education there. Just family, very beautiful place. But from Los Angeles, Watts, Los Angeles, we ended up moving to the Inland Empire, Marino Valley. And that was more desert-type. It was hotter but it was a great place to learn, grow up. And that’s where a majority of my childhood friends are from, and I still have family there to this day. Ho: Okay. Your parents still live in Marino Valley? Adamsel: Yeah. My guardian. I was actually raised by my aunt, so— Ho: Okay. Adamsel: —yeah. My aunt, yes, she still stays out there. Ho: All right. All right. Thank you. And so, did you go through high school in Marino Valley then? Adamsel: Yeah. I went to Rancho Verde High. (chuckles) Home of the Mustangs. I graduated back then, about 2012. So, almost 10 years ago, but— Ho: Okay. Adamsel: —but it was a lovely time. Ho: All right. Great. Thank you. Tell me, how did you come to your understanding of Blackness? Adamsel: I think I came to my understanding of Blackness just due to my environment. Like I said, I was born in Watts, Los Angeles. And I know my aunt worked in the school systems out there. And so, from early on, being close to schools, it was always great. I don’t know. I always was around Black people: my cousins, sisters, everything. I think that was just normal to me, Blackness. But then I think the biggest piece about Blackness was just about, when I was younger, I used to love reading. And so, with that comes history, learning about who you are in relation to the world. And the earliest bits of history was, I think, elementary school. But I can remember—it was 102nd Street School and I think there was a ceremony rededicating the name to Florence Griffith Joiner Elementary School. And so, right then, there was the history of a Black track star, one of the greatest female athletes. And boom! And my interest just—that started it. But through reading, through writing, through understanding people, through understanding different cultures, if you want to do anything in the world in relation to other people, I think the biggest piece is understanding that relation to yourself and where you come from and, ultimately, how the world perceives you. And especially being from Los Angeles and even understanding Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 whether it’s relationships to police, understanding relationships with low-income communities, whether or not you understand it all entirely when you’re young, you can see differences. You can understand people and places where you might not see a specific race in a certain area, but you might see them everywhere else. And then, you put the two and two together at a young age. And I think through education and through reading and through history, you can sort of understand a little bit better. But, yeah, I feel like I always knew. (chuckles) Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Through experience and learning. Adamsel: Yeah. Exactly. Ho: (several words unintelligible) Definitely. You mentioned that you did a lot of reading. Was reading something that you were interested in on your own, or did your aunt encourage you to read? Or was this all through school? Adamsel: I think reading was something that I did on my own a lot because I ultimately enjoyed it. I think it was peaceful and it fit, once you understand letters and the relationships, it was like figuring out a puzzle for me. I know my aunt, growing up in the household, reading was encouraged. Also having—I remember I would have older siblings and there would be scholastic book things, and every student reads at a specific level. And I had a sister who was three years older than me, and I would pick up, sometimes, her books from school. And I would take her readings just to read them because I would get bored if I was reading something or I finished series. But I was always in the library, always reading, and always searching for whether it was non-fiction, fiction. I loved it. And I still do. But I feel like, when I was younger, I think I used that as a way to—I like being by myself reading more than playing video games. And it shows in my skills today. (chuckles) Ho: Okay. That’s great. As a librarian, I can identify with that. (both laugh) Okay. So then, related question. What were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? You kind of touched on this already but anything to add to that? Adamsel: Well, yeah. So, I mean I think I was always taught about the Black experience through my household. I was raised by women who thought it was really important to teach you about the way you might be perceived, about the way you should act in public, treating people with respect. But the older I get, I don’t think that was by coincidence, by choice. It was because they were older black women who probably saw how black men were being treated in Los Angeles, specifically even anywhere you go. Even in the Inland Empire, being mindful of your surroundings is a sense of security. I think that was something that was always taught because one, you never know who’s watching; but then there’s also if anything goes down, you might also be taken at a—how would you say? Like you’re not going to be given the benefit of the doubt. I think that’s what was the message that was trying to be given to me at a young age. And like I said, I didn’t really need anybody to tell me. I mean, I had family to tell me, uncles, aunts, anything. They would tell me the basics of be mindful of what’s going on in the streets, going to and from school, being in life. But then, also reading, whether it was historical books, whether it was non-fictional accounts from people and different areas. I feel through travels—my family used to send me off to different places, whether it was to visit family in Georgia or Detroit and allow me to soak in environments, and “Hey, go use public transportation, but understand how to blend and go about your daily life.” But in that Black experience, one, it was a lot of lived moments. It was a lot of learned experience, just through hands-on teaching. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: But through reading books, sometimes you can use other people’s experiences, other people’s lives and allow that to shape your understanding of those relationships, intercultural. Like I said, it’s all about how people perceive you. And then, based on their perception of how they might view the Black man in America or even Black kids in America, they’re going to treat you a certain way. And it’s through family teaching, I think I was able to realize, whether it was if I didn’t know the term “microaggression,” I could tell if somebody was a little bit more disrespectful to me or if somebody had respect no matter where you came from and, also, if I even wanted to bother with certain people just because of what I thought their perception of me might have been. Ho: Thank you. You mentioned visiting family in Georgia and other places. Can you briefly touch on your experience in L.A. versus Georgia and then also in San Marcos. I know they are three totally different locations in terms of demographics and culture. How was that like for you? Adamsel: Yeah. So, I’ll touch on that. I mean, when it comes to Watts versus—and then, I’ll even bring in like Marino Valley. So, Watts was a place where, even through history, one of the things that’s really prominent that I used to like the most when I was a kid was just even the brief history of the Watts Towers. These are towers in Watts but when you read—it’s sort of folklore but it’s a true story—but the books talk about a man being able to build the Watts Towers out of recycled materials, old mosaic artwork, everything and builds these—I forget how many towers are in there, but beautiful, beautiful structures made out of restructured material. And every time I used to go to school, I used to see these towers as a little kid. And I’m like “Man!” and try to find out the story about that. I used to—“Man, you could do anything with recycled materials. It looks beautiful. It’s structurally sound, and people respect it” and then also knowing that somebody came here to build that in a place that (clears throat) when you think about Watts, sometimes people have mixed reviews about it. It might not be labeled as one of the safest places for everybody. So, it’s one of those things that I used to like, being able to connect with people, and also seeing the amount of black and brown people in that city. I think that I used to appreciate that, and I think going to elementary, second grade out there, it was one of those things. My introduction to the school system started there. But that was also where I had some of my first Black teachers. And so, it was a lot of that there, even the afterschool programs. I feel like whether I knew it or not, I was soaking in those experiences. And when I went to the Inland Empire, I mean it really wasn’t like on a historical Black history tip in the Inland Empire. But that was also a growing city. And I think a lot of people migrated out there. It was a growing place. And I felt like that allowed me to be in an environment where it was sort of carefree. I could learn. I could sort of be— (clears throat) like my environment wasn’t going to shape me any way. I don’t think my environment, and the Inland Empire, it may not have been Black centric. But I still feel like there was opportunities for me to go any direction that I wanted to. When I’m in my studies, I still found pockets of Black mentorship or a teacher here or there. But I just feel like just the overall environment and that quality of life, it was just something simple for a young man to grow up in. You still see those different relationships. You still see it play out. You still would be taught by family. But it was a totally different environment than L.A., slightly less busy. And I think I like that internally. And when I think about Georgia, visiting family whether it was Georgia—I think one of the biggest things that I was able to do when I visited Georgia, one, is just see the difference in Black culture as a kid. I remember going to Georgia and then, in the summers, some of the friends and things that I would make in local parks or kicking it with family, you see them doing Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 things different. You see Black kids playing baseball, whereas in California I’m like “We mainly play basketball” over there. Or just different accents. And I have family from the south. So, I feel like the accent really wasn’t a difference. But also, the historical areas, you could go down, visit MLK Museums or Black History museums and just soak up, I think, the southern culture a little bit more than you technically would on the west coast. I’m not saying the west coast doesn’t have a vibrant Black culture. But when you come from a place where, whether the narrative wants to be blatantly told or not, you’re going to have a museum that captured things that some people might want to forget. Or just in the street names, or just in the local—even like the weather. You soak in so much from the people who have been there, who have lived it for generations and generations. And I feel like that’s one of the things that I still love to this day, traveling to different areas who their past has been, ultimately, a lot of Black history. And they have to—there’s so many different ways for them to keep track of that history and that culture. And it lives on through whether it’s food, music, style. I like it all, and it’s all a blend. Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s great. Identity is really important, and knowing about your history and your people really grounds you and shapes you. And it’s really important, for sure. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: Definitely. Okay. So then, what about San Marcos? Why did you decide to come here, and then what about the culture of this area brought you here? Why did you choose San Marcos? Adamsel: Yeah. To be honest, one of my homeboys, one of my friends from high school, we used to be in band together. And I think he came here—Damien Brandtley—he was a scholar here. But he had just told me about it. He was like “Man, it’s way cooler, weather-wise.” It’s near the beach. It’s a beautiful place. I had never been. But the Inland Empire was hot. And I was like “Yeah. I wouldn’t mind going there.” And I think I had applied but when I had originally applied, I ended up going to the military first. And then I think I was in Virginia and then I had tried again to apply. And then I ended up getting in. But I didn’t come right away. So, I had never seen San Marcos. I had only heard the weather was decent because it was semi-close to the beach. You can get there by local transportation. But when I came to San Marcos, I think I appreciated the hills. I appreciated the calmness of San Marcos. I came in 2013. I feel like they built a building every single year since then, and it’s developing. It’s not the calm city. Well, it probably won’t be the calm city that I’d seen. But when I’d first seen it, it was just so calm and so peaceful. And I think I enjoyed that peace. I won’t say it was like I was looking at San Marcos and I’m like “Oh my god, the demographics of the Black population are just so amazing.” (Jennifer chuckles) You know, I’m gonna feel enveloped. But I’m not the kind of person that says, “I need my group to be the most dominant in the area to thrive.” I didn’t look at San Marcos like that. I looked at San Marcos as a place where it was a young area. And I was like “Well, if this place is growing, I can grow with it” because I can’t grow in a place where it’s like too much going on around me. I won’t probably be able to focus. I was nervous about that. And, yeah, so San Marcos, a beautiful place. I feel like the demographics were all over the place. But I still felt like it was a majority White. I know it became a Hispanic institution. So, we get some trickles of culture there. Our Native American Land Act, that’s great. But one of the things I always noticed around my time in school is just the rate, the percentages of Black Americans at Cal State San Marcos, typically like 2.5, 3%. And that stayed the same. And I never really understood that dynamic in the relationship to Black students, understanding do they know it’s here? Is it a cool place to be? But it just didn’t seem—I feel like we got—there was Blackness here, but I felt like the community, anybody that was here, typically had to band together because we were here together. But yeah, it feels like San Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Marcos wasn’t that place where I was just “I’m going because the Black population.” I think I went because it was a young university, and I think the university was still making a name for itself. And so, I came in at a time where I was like “Hey. I want to do that too.” So, we had similar visions. (chuckles) Ho: Okay. That’s nice. I like how you said that you and the university would grow together. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: That’s really great. Remind me what years were you at Cal State San Marcos? Adamsel: I was there from 2013, Fall 2013, to Spring 2018. Ho: Okay. Now tell me what’s your relationship to the Black Student Center? Why did you get involved? Adamsel: Yeah. My relationship is I think I got involved because of friends. Being a young Black man on Cal State San Marcos’s campus, even staying in the dorms my Freshmen year, one of the natures of my relationship to campus used to be “Let me go to class, and then let me go back to the dorms, maybe work on homework, maybe not.” But I felt like I had a lot of friends in the dorms. And that was my relationship to campus. But then, ultimately, I started knowing more and more people who were upper classmen. And I think it might have been like Kakailah or Tiffany Boyd, but different people had come into my friend group and they’d be like “Oh, you know, on Tuesdays we’re going to this Black Student Union meeting.” And I think ultimately my relationship with fellow Black students on campus started thriving. So, when it came to, I believe it was like my, it might have been my second or third year in Cal State San Marcos. And that was one of the things. I used to actually just be like a fly on the wall when it came to the matters of BSC arriving, thinking about Jamailah, Tiffany. Yeah. We’d have conversations about “Oh, you know, we’re thinking about Black Student Center, and thinking about what that could mean for university Black students.” And I remember tagging along to like the BSU meetings to promote this idea of “Hey, you know, this is coming! Are we having support from all of us? Is this something that—if there’s ever going to be sign holding or different things like that.” Because I know Tiffany and Jamailah were very involved with student government. They were the leaders at that time. I believe Tiffany was president at that time. And that was one of those things where you were just making sure that this is not only an idea coming from two heads but getting that buy-in from an entire community, understanding like “Hey, you know, we have community but if we could have this space, the community probably wouldn’t have to work as hard trying to organize together or even have that spot on campus to where it’s undeniably yours.” Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And so, yeah. I feel like personally I don’t necessarily know. I guess in hindsight you never really know how minor some of your actions might be. Reviewing documents differently, like it may seem so minor. And for me it does, in relationship to the work that Jamailah and Tiffany and a lot of other people have put in, even people not inside the Black community, allies from the LatinaX Center, different other groups and different people around campus. I feel like my work was miniscule but ultimately that Center thrived and came to be. And then, I feel like my relationship with the Center also blossomed because, as Tiffany and Jamailah and some of those other strong pushers of this space, they were there but then they left. And then I’m a student, ended up being involved in student government and then, ultimately, became student government president and then I get to see even more. Being a Black student government president, my relationship with Black students is probably going to be a little Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 different in the sense that this should be a working relationship, for sure. If there’s Black students on campus, I want them to see how seamless it should be to, one, do good work for the university, but then also make sure you’re still seen in your spaces and not sort of having this gap between “Oh, that’s Louis. But we have no idea who he is.” Or he has no ideas (of) what is the regular Black student facing on campus. And I think that was one of the things that I really wanted to do, as a student, even as a student leader, is always make sure that, one, I was seen in those spaces, but then encourage the students who were in those spaces “Hey, because you’re a leader in this space, that means you could lead anywhere on campus. Don’t forget to come back and make sure you’re in multiple spaces at once.” But I was like “That’s what the university needs! They need to see Black people, whether you originated in the Center, because (it’s) a place of comfort.” I’m like “They need to see you in every facet of the university because like why not!” But that’s how I used to treat my relationship to the Black Student Center. I hope I answered that question. Ho: Yeah. For sure. Thank you. Okay. So, tell me. You mentioned Jamailah and Tiffany. Tell me about different leaders on the project and their contributions, including any unsung heroes that maybe we don’t know about because there are always unsung heroes. Adamsel: Yeah. I’m totally blanking on people’s names and times because it was a while ago and Tiffany and Jamailah might beat me up. I do remember there was a Karen Guzman. I remember she used to work closely with Tiffany and Jamailah in getting support of different people. Ho: Was she a student? Adamsel: Yes. She was a student, and I don’t really know how she chooses to identify herself. She kind of acts LatinaX. But I know she was a pusher of this space as well as a pusher for the Latina Center. Um, man, other folks. I think the entire Black community might get a pat on the back for pushing this. Thinking about a Kailah Wiggins, I believe she was one of the first people to tell me to go to a BSU meeting and then, ultimately, leading me to work in conjunction with Tiffany and Jamailah. And, yeah, anybody else who I forget, they(’re) going to probably have to come and talk to me because I’m probably forgetting a lot more names. But there were a lot of unsung heroes. And, for me, even when it comes to unsung heroes, that’s one of the things that I also think about, is as the space grew and as it came to be what it is today, I’m thinking about even all the student workers who worked in the Black Student Center when it first opened. I think about the first director, Anthony Jett. I think about where the space is now from where it was, and I’m—even people like Dr. G or—man, some of our Student Life and Leadership folks that I’m forgetting. But, again, from where it is then to where it is now, that growth, those events, the events that were in person, our Black Faculty Staff Association, I feel like every single Black group on the campus they organize in a way to where they needed to be in that space at some point. And when it comes to that leadership on this, man, there were so many leaders. But it was just something that Black students felt they needed. And then not only felt they needed but then came together to get it. I think that was really powerful. And, yeah, like I said, it was a lot of unsung heroes. But I think, ultimately, everyone’s last vision, from the time it was a spark in someone’s mind to the time they had their first-year anniversary, even coming on multiple year anniversaries to our current director now, I think everybody’s vision is really just to make that space for Black students, one, to feel recognized, to feel seen but then also this is not a soaking pool. This should be the jump-off point. You might come hear introduction to the university but you’re going to bounce off going in so many different paths. But, ultimately, your first relationship to the university, unlike me, unlike some of the unsung Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 heroes, our first relationship to the university wasn’t a Black Student Center. It was just relationships with each other. And if you couldn’t walk past a Black student on campus without knowing their name, that was the conversation. You go “Hey, hey. You know, I haven’t seen you before. You might be a commuter. You might be—whoever you are but we need to know a name so we can at least invite you to our next outing, our next poolside, our next, community service, anything.” But, yeah, thank you for that question. Ho: Sure, yeah. If you think of peoples’ names as we’re talking, please feel free to mention them. Adamsel: Oh, yeah. Of course. I’ll make sure I’ll throw them out. Ho: Okay. Great. So, you mentioned vision and purpose for the Black Student Center. Tell me what the vision and mission and purpose were and what they are now, or as recently as—since we’re not at the university anymore. Adamsel: Man, you know, John— Ho: I mean not word for word but in your opinion. Adamsel: I’m like John might have to hurt me (Jen laughs) because I don’t know the mission, the vision today. But I think that mission—because this is going to have to come off the top of the head and this is going to be mission-based on what I felt, and vision based on what I’ve seen—I think that mission was to create an environment to where Black students felt seen. They felt a little bit protected because they were among people who shared their common experiences along with themselves. And I think it also created a space to where you can be around your peers who share those same experiences. And then, maybe, if people who were not a part of your ethnic background, they want to come in and try to be an ally, try to learn a little bit. It also creates a space for other people to come in and see you in your spaces, how you interact, the events that you put on, and hopefully learn a little bit about your community so they could be better people, better allies. I think the vision, when it comes to the space, is making sure you achieve that Black excellence in the school setting, feel supported by your peers. But then it also—the vision is bringing in that Black faculty and staff component, making sure these students are supported, making sure that if there are other allies in the faculty staff around campus, like “Hey, if you want to come find this prominent group of Black students, people who are involved, if you need to pull things, this creates a space where everybody is on campus.” And let’s say they’re looking for Black students to get involved or mentor, it allows you that area to where you can pull from. And even if you’re not solely pulling from that space as a resource of Black students, it also allows that to be a beacon on campus for Black students as they’re coming, as they’re commuting, like “Hey. I didn’t know this space existed. Boom! Let me pop in there. I don’t only have to be in like a commuter line. Or I don’t only have to be in a library study room.” And then going back to that connectivity and that nature, having that Black Student Center is that homing beacon when we’re on campus. I feel like it adds to our retention, or it should add to the retention. I’m not going to spit out the numbers and say has this done what we expected it to do? But that vision is to increase that campus presence, to increase your interaction with the campus because we all understand building a relationship with a space. Building that relationship with a space will ultimately enhance your relationship to the university. Getting more involved, typically more times than not, will allow students to keep their GPA up, their GPA requirements on things, be a little bit more focused, have more peers around, build better relationships. So, you end up leaving college better than you found it but then you also leave college with a larger Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 network, a couple more experiences—some great experiences at that—and a little bit more understanding of who you are in relationship to the entire world. Ho: Thank you. So, these items that you mention—increasing your network, increasing retention, being a beacon for Black students—are these what the students and faculty and staff had in mind when they were pushing for the Black Student Center? Or was there anything else? Adamsel: Yeah. I think they were pushing for that, and I think some of the students would say I sometimes debate with the phrase “Safe Space.” Yeah, this is a space for you to grow. I don’t necessarily—I work crisis. I don’t necessarily think every single space is safe. I still—We got to do our due diligence. But when we look at the space, I think people wanted it to be a space where they can come see a little bit of history, learn a little bit about their peers. And, ultimately, this is the catalyst for Black students, whether it was research, tutoring. This is the hub. And I think that was the vision that Black faculty, staff, and students wanted to see because, when we came on campus, just the fact of we’re walking up Chavez stairs just like the rest of them, and we’d go all the way to the back of the school. And this is 2013. We go all the way to the back of the school still to meet in like Mark 101, Mark 103, 102. And that was our commute. And we’d see everybody at U-hour. We’re walking all the way across campus or sometimes we’d be in SBSB, you know, walk across campus. We always had to do a migration. But even when the Black—I mean, not the Black student but when the USU was built, the University Student Union was built, we see all these groups in the space. We understand what could be possible, what could be done. But we didn’t have it. And, pushing for that, it’s like okay. Well, we know what we could have. They look like they’re having a good time. They look like their events are awesome. There’s cross-functioning, cross-collaboration going on. There’s support from the university. There is support from Student Life and Leadership. There’s support from our Vice President of Student University Affairs. All these groups have it. We don’t. So, when you see that support from the university, it makes you look and say it looks like in some shape or form, it may not be in entirety that the university is supporting, but just these spaces existing on Cal State San Marco’s campus, that allowed Black students to realize like wow! This is how the university chose to support this, and this is how we are supported. And when you look at differences, differences can sometimes be blatant explanations without needing to say anything. The imagery that I see, the events that I see put on, I’m walking my day-to-day path through the university. I’m feeling the relationship that I am in with the university. But somebody else might feel their relationship is different, based on what they identify with, based on the spaces they can go into and see themselves represented, whether it’s in imagery, whether it’s in dialogue, whether it’s events. And if I get events coming up the end of January ‘til the beginning of March, then I know like oh, wow! This is how you see me. This is how you choose to view me. And this is going to be your relationship with me. Ho: Thank you. I have a list of questions here, but I went way off, just following your— (both chuckle) Adamsel: Oh. It’s all right. Ho: Okay. So, did you experience or witness any push back to the creation of the Black Student Center? Adamsel: Yeah. But I think I experienced it in a multitude of ways. I think there was push back coming from places that you never would think. Ho: Like what? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Adamsel: I think there was push back from student government, on meetings when there would be topics in conversation where it’s like public, like you could see people speaking against bringing on the Black Student Center. And to be honest, I don’t think I really was in those meetings that much, invested. But when I was there, I could see it, or even reading the meeting minutes afterwards, I’m like dang! I didn’t know this person was against it or for it. When the culmination of the Center was starting, I think Cal State San Marcos might have posted something about it, one way or another. And I think there was a multitude of comments, hundreds of comments where it was like “We don’t need spaces for Black people,” dah, dah, dah, dah. It’s crazy to see people just against cultural identifiable spaces. It’s like “Why do you all need a safe space? We don’t have one.” And they don’t understand that relationship. Or “Why do you feel like you need to go into a Black Student Center? We think you’re going to just hide out in there. This doesn’t need to be a space for your hiding. If you want to be accepted, then go places where everybody is and then you’ll be accepted.” Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And it’s just funny how people’s understanding of what you mean by “safe space” means or what some people meant by having a Center, whether it talks about their identity needs, their racial identity needs. I’m just like, man. For me, I think sometimes the pushback was very weird. Or it wouldn’t be pushback, but when you look at the amount of people that felt uncomfortable just walking past our spaces or even being in the space, and you could see a person who wasn’t Black. They might meet somebody who’s Black that’s in the space, might be a friend. But then they’d be lingering at the door like “Hey. Can you come on out?” People just feel awkward when they go into a space that, overall, the majority doesn’t look like them. They’re scared to go in, and they feel awkward going in. But then, when you say, “This is how I feel when everywhere doesn’t look like me,” it’s hard for them to picture it. And I’m like, “Oh. You feel that way when you come into our space. That’s how I feel (when) I’m in your space.” But it’s funny when people can’t do a quick flip in their mind and see like ah! This is probably why you want it and need it. (chuckles) Ho: Yeah. I get what you’re saying. I know who you’re talking about. (both laugh) All right. What did Uiversity Administration communicate was their vision for the Black Student Center, if you remember? Adamsel: Mmm, I don’t know. I know when I was a senior, I did an independent study project with Dream a Moon. And I spoke about the—I forget the title of this independent reader study project—but I spoke about how the university can bring forward something like a Black Student Center and they hope that it would—I think their vision was this will fix all of our problems with the Black community, and we will make this space. And your relationship with the campus, Black students’ relationships with the university, ultimately it will be fixed. And, for me, I think in my research—that was one of the things that I noticed because I felt a way about it—I was like yeah, just because there’s a Black Student Center, that doesn’t mean that the university has fully acknowledged everything that the Black students are going through and then is working to fix (it). Because the Black Student Center is the smallest center in the university student union. But it’s just one center. It only had one director. The budget may have been whatever it was. It was probably—still, it’s a budget. It’s limited. And if the organization, the university, doesn’t change, those Black students that are in that space still don’t feel confident to go out and be leaders on campus. They still might not feel confident to go off and explore different areas. I didn’t necessarily want the Black Student Center to be a safe haven. I wanted it to be a place of exploration, research. You start here but you go anywhere you want on campus. But in order for you to feel like you Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 can be anywhere on campus, that campus has to be inviting. That campus has to be doing more from the top. We need to see it probably in leadership. We need to see it in mentorship. We need to see it in recruitment and retention rates. And these are all things that I cared about. And so, when I was on campus, I worked in whether it was like hiring diversity, on diversity committees, or sitting in African American retention committees. I see the numbers. I see what we’re doing. But ultimately, all that just funneled my thoughts and we’re not doing enough because if we were doing enough, they would feel comfortable. They wouldn’t want to leave. They would be present. But all the people that were being present, again, they consolidated in that Center. And I don’t think it was the Center’s fault. I think it was just acknowledgment that the university thought the Center was the end all, be all. But Black students, people, we naturally need more. We want more. But it takes more than just a space to make anybody feel comfortable to say, “Okay. This university is it. I want to be, ultimately, involved.” And so, yeah, just going off that. I don’t feel that the university administration really—whatever their vision was, I don’t think they pushed it, from top to bottom. It wasn’t reflected in policies. It wasn’t reflected in hiring. It wasn’t reflected in Black faculty and staff numbers. I just didn’t see it. But that’s just me. If there’s some numbers out there that have prove me wrong, show them. (both laugh) Ho: So, are you saying that, based on what you saw, Administration was just like “Okay. Here’s your Center. That’s it. We gave you enough.” Is that, basically, the impression you got? Adamsel: Yeah. That was basically it. I think that the Center was that space to give. It was a place like “We’re going to give this to you. You have it. This should be enough. And we’re going to take a step back.” This is a smaller population. You might be 2.5-3% but this is not a population. I think that should have probably been a red flag. This is a population to cultivate. This is a population—it may be a small representation of our campus but hey, if we cultivate this group, if we make sure we do everything in our power that this group succeeds, we might not be getting monies from federal sources or resources or anything like that. But, for me, I realize taking that initiative and putting that foot forward for any student, I feel like we have pockets of Black faculty and staff overworking to make sure we felt accepted. And there were students who wanted to make sure that the next student felt accepted. But man, that would have felt good coming from the university with university backing, with programs and resources from the chomp. I think about people like Floyd Lai of the Cross-Cultural Center, Andreas Vivella, even Francisco Checa, EOP. All these other groups, all these other resources may have been there for underserved students and even showing Black students “Hey, you call can do mentorships. You all can have that.” And I love watching other spaces, how they worked and how other groups, even if you come from a minority represented population—looking at CAMP students, TRIO, even international students—every population on our campus has the ability to get backing and support and budget outlined for that specific thing. And I loved—I always imagined it like rungs on a ladder. If I was a LatinX student or if I was a white student, how many rungs on the ladder—if I slipped and fell off this ladder— how many rungs would I hit on this ladder until I fell off into nothingness? Am I going to see counselors I could potentially train with? Are there student groups that I could reach out to? Are there counselors or things or events that are specifically targeted to me to where I can hit every step at Cal State San Marcos before I ultimately fall off? And therefore, I feel like Black students, especially Black male students, Black female students, man, there’s not a lot of opportunities to pick you up if you fail. If you fail your first year, your second year, and you decide to fall off the wayside and not come back, how many people or how many organizations would be there to “Oh, we’re really geared towards retention. We’re really Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 geared to making sure you felt safe, comfortable, understood.” I didn’t see that much. And so, for me, that was always on the forefront of my head. Ho: Thank you. Okay. Can you tell me about—Actually, were you at the grand opening of the Black Student Center? Adamsel: Yeah. It was a lovely event. Ho: Okay. All right. Have you seen the same level of support for the Center over the years since it opened? Adamsel: When it opened, I did see some support. I think I saw some university administration go in there and at least try to visit the space. And I think I saw a lot of faculty members across— whether they were in the arts, history, communications professors. I feel like a lot of people chose to partner with the Black Student Center when it first opened. And I saw events out the wazoo. But I think the biggest thing when—And so we’re focusing on partnerships, right? Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: Yeah. So, I think a lot of people came, especially from the opening. Well, it was even before the opening because I feel like it was open a little bit before the grand opening. And so, I feel a lot of people across the university wanted to come and see it, if they supported it. And they even urged their students to go out and come support it. And the grand opening was a great event with performances, food. I believe the president even spoke at the grand opening. And so, seeing that representation from university administration and seeing that support, it showcased like oh, this is what it could be. And the amount of students that were able to come and just because it was a space, whether they wanted to see it or not, they were like wow! Intrigued that this is all happening. And this might be a smaller Center but the things that took place, whether it was on the grand opening day or right after and the years to come, it seemed like it was booming. I think ultimately the Center has transformed from the things that it has done now, one, because of Covid, but even before Covid, I feel like the transformation was really geared at involvement, events, and then really gearing up partnerships. And I think, especially with the hiring of—I forget her title but sort of like the overall—Gail Colevant, Dr. Gail Colevant, what her role in managing all the spaces and those leaders from all those spaces, being able to come together. I image the partnerships are even on another scale now because they are able to communicate calendars and everything. But it’s nice to see the events just being churned out. It’s nice to see that the students have such a greater involvement. And I think—because before, when the Center first started, I think the university presence was like “Hey. Let’s let this Center cultivate.” But now I’m starting to see more “Hey, Black Students. We’re having new policies come out about retention. We’re having new policies come out about—We’re going to go into a study about the Black student experience, especially working with that BSC, Black Student Center.” So, I see the difference and before it was “Hey. We’re going to let the Black Student Center thrive and flourish by itself.” It can go up in flames or it can fly off into the sunset. But I didn’t see more policies supporting the students on a microlevel. Are we talking about how we’re getting students in? Are we talking about how we’re keeping them here. Hey, if the BSC is doing this, are the faculty/staff doing this? Is the university doing this? The onus shouldn’t only be on the students. What about the environment that they’re in? and I think, especially with people going back to campus this Fall, in the Fall of 2021, I’m excited to see hey, are those university policies that are slowly being implemented, what are they doing to make sure that we’re retaining? And not only retaining, are we Transcribed by Melissa Martin 11 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 growing? Is there any possibility of getting past that 3%? Is there any possibility to make students feel comfortable on this campus? And it can be done. But it starts off with things like policies and people really reviewing. One of the things that I pushed back on, even when I was a student, as student government president, I even made that motion to say, “Hey. ASI should separate” because we have the Gender Equity Center and the LGBTQA Center, both great centers, but ASI was having them on their budget. Whereas the university budgets for Centers were different. And I just looked at it like wow. This is the Black Student Center. ASI doesn’t have the money in their budget. Cross Cultural Center is not on our budget. It’s all different. And when I look at the amount of differences, man, this is a lack of equity. And so, especially based on population, that’s all I care about. Are we going to give students in every single space the same opportunity to feel seen, feel accepted, and then also make sure that these university areas have great cross-functional relationships so people don’t feel afraid to learn and support another group, even if you’re not a part of that group? Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And I think if the university continues on that equity-based leadership, that thought process, they could get a much better space of identifying there’s an issue, even if students bring it up, even if you’re being reactive. If students bring up an issue, taking that time to listen to what the students are saying and say “Oh, they say they don’t feel supported. What can we do? They say there’s not enough resources for them. What can we do?” But, yeah, it starts with leadership. It starts with policy. And I think that’s the biggest thing. Ho: Definitely. Thank you for that. Going back a little, you mentioned some partnerships between the different centers. Do the different centers work together a lot in your experience? Adamsel: I think it could be better, at least from what I’ve seen. I do think a lot of times, when I was a student, I used to see other spaces come into the BSC, the Black Student Center, dropping off flyers and say “Hey, make sure you all come to my event,” drop off flyers and say “Come. Come. Come.” But it was never like y’all are doing something. We wholeheartedly want to support you. And there would be some opportunity for that. I don’t want to say none of these spaces I ever supported. But I did see some spaces would come into the Black Student Center to promote, and you know, “Hey. Bring your people. Yeah, we got free food. We got—” Maybe they had the budget to do free food. But they’d be like “Hey, you know, we got this. Come.” But when it was, we’re promoting, whether it was historical movie night or historical U-hour, sometimes they would be slow to come. And I think one of the things, especially from our first Director, Anthony Jett, that was one of the things that he would do, is work on those relationships. And I think, even from Anthony Jett to John Rawlins, those relationships as a Black Student Center Director are very important. But then it also—one of the things that I also have to acknowledge about those relationships as a Director to the university is they probably have so many different things and policies and ideas that they have to work on and manage as well as events. So, it depends on their relationships. But then I know it also probably depends on the people in those spaces, continuously building that comfort and that support network. And the people in other spaces, we all have to be in that mindset of okay, I’m going to help you get to that next step because either I’m there or I just want to help you out of the kindness of my heart. And I think people, the more that they started coming out and interacting with the Black Student Center, especially from those different identity or cultural spaces, they ultimately got more comfortable, more and more, to do it with the Black Student Center. And nowadays, you see collaboration of events starting, Boom! at the beginning of the semester. We’re Transcribed by Melissa Martin 12 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 going to all get out there, showcase what we all have. And then, I’m starting to see different—You know, “Let’s look at this culture through your lens.” Or “We’re going to all go to the Black Student Center, in collaboration with—” So, I see these relationships are booming. Ho. Mm-hmm. Adamsel: You know, longevity, time, people, these relationships are only going to get stronger. I think in the first couple years, first year or two, we’re going to see that mesh sort of happening and what’s our relationship to each other? How can we support each other? You’re sort of figuring that out. And I think a lot of the other spaces—I think that’s one of the things they had on the Black Student Center is they had probably been there for a little bit. So, maybe that’s one of the things that they were also able to do, sort of give that road map. “Oh, the Black Student Center can host an event like this,” or “We can collaborate with Student Life and Leadership like this.” So, I appreciated seeing that, the growing pains, the relationship building. But ultimately, I don’t think it’s anything that’s especially to a relationship building, I don’t think it’s anything that’s built overnight. And it's just a continuous effort and a continuous mindset to say this is what we want to do, and we really want to support this group of students, this area, the best way we can. And it has to come from the entire community. Ho: Thank you. You mentioned Historical U-Hour, Historical Moving On. Is that what you said? Adamsel: Historical with what? Ho: I don’t know. In terms of programming, you mentioned Historical U-Hour, and then Historical something else. And I was just wondering what those were. Adamsel: Yeah. So, U-Hour, 12-1 hour on the university. And I think it’s like Tuesdays and Thursdays. Well, it may have only been Tuesday. I think it was Tuesday and Thursday when there’s typically no class, from 12-1. So, typically groups and events would take place 12-1. And so, historically, when it came to U-Hour, some of these groups and events had already been out there, whether it’s promoting events, doing different things. And I think they took those experiences, one, it showed the Black Student Union this is how it’s done. And then, the Black Student Union, when the BSC came to be, it was like Boom! We have students who already identify how to throw events, how to work with Student Life and Leadership or ASI to get funding. And even when we got directors—Now, our directors probably have budgets and so they’re able to let us know how they can partner and make the best things for students. But those other spaces, in that relationship, they also use that historical nature of U-Hour to partner, do partnerships, even afternoon events, different things like that. So, I did like that time. And like I said, it’s just ultimately growth together and, through time and longevity, probably get that rhythm of, hey, this partnership was straight. Let’s continue on that partnership. Or what can we do to enhance anything that we’re doing? Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. So, tell me, in your experience, what has been the Black Student Center’s impact on the campus community, as well as you personally? Adamsel: I think their impact on the campus community has been amazing. It has allowed the university to have the support in a different way. (looks off the right in thought) So, wait. Can you repeat that question because I want to try to connect that? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 13 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Ho: Sure. Yeah. Sure. What’s been the BSC’s impact on the campus community as well as the impact on you, personally? Adamsel: Okay. So, the campus community I think is impacted. It’s a decent impact. It’s not anything that has caused waves of change, at least when it first came. And, to this day, I think it can be a beacon of change. But the impact was it gave students a beacon, Black students particularly. It gave us an area to where it’s like, okay, orientation efforts. Can we focus on making sure that they’re coming? Communications are routed through the BSC. Can we get representation that way? Our impact with involvement, it has impacted that. It has allowed Black students to take up leadership roles in areas, whether they’re student workers, whether it is giving tours to different people about the space. It has allowed us to host a majority of different things and even allowed areas like Black Student Union to meet or hold events. It has been a catalyst for the students that were there as well as faculty and staff to understand like hey, if I wanted to come during U-Hour and sit and learn or sit and chat with current students about what I do, maybe opportunities for mentorship, I’m like wow! They already know where they can come to do that or come to get information on how to do it and how to further impact our students. So, I feel like the impact has really been on a community level. It has been broadening. It has allowed faculty, staff from all areas in university leadership, all areas to have a beacon point to not really see the entire Black population but to see, okay, if we wanted to talk to people who see current students or even get feedback, bounce ideas off, how can we best serve the needs of students today? At least it gives the university—this could probably be like the north star along with some of the Black student organizations. And when I talk about another piece, it’s organization, you know. If students have issues or they feel like they can’t go to student government or they want to talk about administrative or other things like that, the Black Student Center Director also can create that environment to where now it’s okay, you have another person in the leadership capacity through his relationships, through her relationships. I don’t want to say like his or her because they might see this on video in a couple of years. It might be a different person. (chuckles) But that director can be another person to carry their ideas forward. And, yeah, so the impact. Again, amazing for what it’s doing now. Can it be better? Yes. We all want the best for that space. But I think ultimately that impact has impacted the Black student life on campus in a decent way. And now, the impact of Black Student Center, I want it to have an impact on policy in the entire university as a whole to where hopefully we get to a point where you ask somebody how to get to the Black Student Center. Hopefully any faculty on campus can let you know where it is, or they understand about the importance of why it’s there and make some time in their role on Cal State San Marcos to visit. Now, when you get into the impact that it had on me, I’m the kind of person—I feel like I would have been who I was regardless of the space. I’m that kind of person. I feel like I would have been a great human being. I would have been a decent human being. But when it comes to the Black Student Center now, my opportunity for change started way before that because I feel like it was just being around my peers in a different way. And I think that initiation started when I got involved with the Black Student Union, even bringing Omega Psi Phi, which is a historically Black fraternity on campus. We are able to join that. And I think just around my peers, and it started with the BSU. It started with involvement with other organizations. But when the BSC came, I’m like man. It kept me grounded. It kept me—My ear was always to the needs of all students, but specifically Black students. And then I also saw myself represented. I felt like I was able to provide feedback and talk to people with similar experiences as me. I was able to get involved with mentorship areas. I think that relationship that I had, even when I became a staff at Cal State San Marcos, I was even able to have a Transcribed by Melissa Martin 14 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 relationship with John and some of the other students and meeting with Black male students and faculty and staff, meeting with all students, holding events, be faculty advisors for different organizations. It was lovely and I think their impact on me, it’s profound. Like I said, it just—I don’t know—it motivated me to do better for them to make sure that I could always support them because that’s what I felt I needed. And I think that’s one of the best parts about this space is, as a Black student, if you choose to get involved, you’re going to notice gaps in what you see or what you felt as a student. And ultimately, when you have a chance to get involved in any capacity, you’re going to figure out, okay, how do I make the next student not feel how I felt if I felt discontent. And when it comes to Black students in Black spaces, they might have extra challenges on how they may feel discontent, whether it’s through microaggressions, whether it’s through lack of understanding, whether it’s through lack of Black leadership, whether it’s anything. So, taking it a step further, especially with Black students, I’m like “Hey. We probably noticed the same things. You probably felt the same way I felt when you first got here. You probably feel like there is not enough black representation at this space. But what can I do to bridge that gap? What can I do to make sure that if I could take a little bit of that away, will I get you to stay another semester? Let’s get you into something that you actually like to do. And if not, how about I point you into the direction of the doctor Mahatmas, the doctor Jeffrey Gilmores, the professor Rawlins, the Black Student Center Director. What can we do to make sure somewhere along the way,” —even LaPorcha, over at Student Life when she was here—“what can we do to tap you into someone that can help you? And I think about the people like Gezai Berhane up in Student Life and Leadership or Marilyn Williams, Ariel Stephenson. And that was also an impact point for them, too. They are working in Office of Diversity or Student Life and Leadership and Black people as well, the BFSA, all those folks are going right there and getting people involved where they are because it’s like they know you get involved, you start coming, you start insisting, you’re going to have a job to do on the campus. You’re going to associate this campus with a little bit more than just go to class, go home, go to class, go to the BSC, go home. You’re getting some skin in the game. So, I think that’s what everybody started doing and ultimately that’s what—I didn’t need the BSC to do it, but I think the students in the BSC ultimately gave me way more skin in the game than I wanted. But it was necessary, and I loved them for it. Ho: That’s lovely, thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Two more questions, and they can be as short or as long as you want but are there any, I don’t know, behind the scenes stories you want to share? Or anything else you want to say about the Black Student Center or your time at Cal State San Marcos so that one hundred years from now, when you and I are gone, the stories are going to still exist. Anything else? Adamsel: I felt I got some fabulous stories about my time at San Marcos, but I don’t know if I care to go into all of them. I think I did sort of tell one about—I spoke about being a student government leader and, lightly, I’d spoke about addressing the fact that ASI was housing two spaces. And we didn’t house the BSC, the Black Student Center. The Latina Center was not sponsored by us. The Cross-Cultural Center wasn’t sponsored by us. But we sponsored the LGBTQA and Gender Equity Center. And, for me, I think it’s so weird being in the position of leadership and seeing—And it may not even feel like inequity to people. But people can live life and you can be doing something, and you can look at budgeting and everything like that and you can be like “Wow, I’m housing these two spaces.” And then I look at Black Student Center and it’s not equity. They’re not getting the same—They’re not even probably getting the same percentage. Or look at the Cross-Cultural Center. See what people are able to do in the scope of a university and see what the university values. And the university can say they value something, they Transcribed by Melissa Martin 15 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 value Black students. But we don’t all have the same sort of carrot, sort of the same opportunity to have the quality of events, everything. And I think that was one of the things that—It was weird because when I’d spoke about cutting ASI off away from those two spaces, (sighs) man, the directors, the people, the students in those spaces. That was like a funny time for me because I’m a leader. And I spoke to my Board about it, and I was like “Hey man, they’ve got to probably come off this budget.” One, students were not happy. There was a small pocket of students and I don’t want to take anything away from my friends and colleagues in Gender Equity Center and LGBTQA because I don’t think that’s something that a student should protest. But students were right because ASI student fees, they come out of everybody. And I think some of the students were upset that my student fees are coming out of something and paying and sponsoring something I don’t believe in. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And as a student, I was like “Man. These people are talking crazy! But they’re right.” Because if I believe in—You could believe in any—I could believe in McDonald’s. If I go choose to spend my money at McDonald’s, that’s great. But I shouldn’t be able to take your money, if you don’t believe in McDonald’s, and spend it at McDonald’s. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: But as students, I’m like how do you combat this? And then you don’t have to combat it. I think the university should create a space to where they’re like ‘Here, we believe in our Native American brothers and sisters whose land this is. Here, we believe in Chican/X, Latin/X students. We believe and support Black students. We believe and support all gender identities.’” I’m like “That’s the university. That’s what the university should say.” And if people step into the university, they should understand this is a place where we value all of that. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: Now, if their monies don’t—Their monies are probably going to go to it because they pay tuition. You’re going to pay tuition, that’s cool. But it shouldn’t be in a place where they can attack it. And student government was a place that policies could change, where they can attack it. I’m like I’m president today, but if a president 10 years from now chose to dissolve these places—I mean, it’ll probably be hard to do but under student government these places are under attack. And unless you have all the spaces in that area under attack, then you can’t do it. Unless you have all those spaces getting the same budget, you shouldn’t be able to do it. But the one thing that stuck with me was the amount of students talking to me, as a Black man on campus, loved by some, hated by some. But they came to attack me, to tell me I didn’t care about those spaces. I remember that. They came to tell me I didn’t know the definition. You know, I’m a Black man, senior on campus, Communication major. I love it all. Educated. And they came to tell me “You don’t know the definition of intersectionality. You don’t understand us.” And all I’m trying to do is make sure when I go see Black students in their space that they’ve got the same resources. I’m looking at ASI. We can push out hundreds of events for our different centers that we hold. But for other areas we don’t print. We don’t host events for them. We don’t do that. And I wanted to mentally take ASI away from serving some and make sure we push the university. I think, when I used to have meetings with President Haynes, I spoke to her and I was like—I was doing my own research, my own due diligence, going through old meeting minutes to figure out why do we keep these spaces? And Black Student Center came up, Latina Center came up. What made the Transcribed by Melissa Martin 16 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 university take those spaces? And through research, through communication with Dr. Checa, Marina Checa, and talking to ASI—I was even looking at the inaugural addresses that President Haynes had. And I think sometime along the line, I think it was like 2104 or something like that, she was like “We value the LGBTQA Gender Equity Center.” I took that and ran with it. (chuckles) And I was in a meeting with her, and I was like “People are attacking these ASI spaces. What can we do to make sure these spaces, as well as the Black Student Center, Cross-Cultural Center, Latina Center, I want to make sure that these spaces all have that umbrella.” Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And then, a couple of months later, I think I was on a hiring committee for Dr. Gayle Colevant. (laughs) It was lovely to see her being there in that space, all under the same umbrella like I envisioned, and then ASI being a new catalyst where you see the food pantry vision, the student at events side with CAB, the Board representing student needs. You can’t look at ASI now and try to attack any piece because every single piece services everyone. And not only that, ASI is now that space to where they can connect to every single identity space, cultural space, and again, allow each one to grow in their own right. And I’m so proud of that but I think coming into a space where you’re a Black man at Cal State San Marcos and people are attacking you for wanting everything to be equal, and to let you know even though people necessarily route for you, when something is—if they deem something is attacking them, instead of understanding, sometimes, first they’ll be uncomfortable and then they’ll attack. And then, you just hope years down the line as time goes on, you’re like “Okay. I hope that you can see what my vision was, and your relationship in that, and you lost nothing by promoting me.” And sometimes, I think people think like “If we try to make everything—I’m going to lose something, or my salary might go down or my events or who’s going to do this?” No. You don’t lose nothing by making sure that everyone has a piece of the whole. And yeah, so that was a fun story. Ho: Yeah. Adamsel: I don’t know if all of that is in meeting minutes somewhere. But I laugh thinking about the past. (chuckles) Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that when the Gender Equity Center and the LGBT Center were under ASI, you wanted to move them over to the university but there was push back for you moving those two centers to the university? Adamsel: Yeah. And my Board—I spoke to my executive Board, and I was like “Got a crazy idea.” And when Louis has got crazy ideas, I’m the President. My team, bless them, they supported me. I explained it. I spoke about equity. I spoke about what the vision was, and I hoped they got it. And so, we took that to the main Board of Directors, and I said, “This is what I want to do.” Now, when those Centers and those leaders and some of those students got wind of it, then there was an opportunity for them to come and tell me to my face about their feelings, their emotions, how what I was doing was wrong, how much they hated that thought that we could just push them out. I think they thought ASI is kicking you to the curb because there is some—I don’t know if they thought ASI—They thought Louis was— (laughs) Ho: It was more personal. Adamsel: —and to see ASI, oh—even though we had a great relationship before then, instantly it became why can’t we be a part of ASI anymore? Even though our missions are the same—I mean, are Transcribed by Melissa Martin 17 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 not the same. Our visions are different. What we’re servicing on a day-to-day basis is different. It just became a different relationship instantly the moment I brought that to the forefront. And like I said, I think it’s because the mindset relationship to I’m going to lose something if you do X, Y, or Z. And now, upon explaining it, some of those students in those spaces came to me, “Louis, love you. When I first heard about it, I was not cool with it. But when you explained it, it made sense.” And then some were like “I ain’t talking to you.” (laughs) And that’s understood. And the leadership, pro-staff, students, no matter how they felt, I knew how I felt about equity. I knew how I felt as a Black student. I knew how I felt when you walk into events and you see what people are able to do, the magnitude, the budget, the promotion, and you’re like “Wow, that space can’t do that.” And there are still students to this day that don’t have spaces. But I’m like, “Man. In the future, Cal State San Marcos is going to grow and grow and continue to make spaces for people and identities. If we choose to make spaces, can we ultimately decide that this will be under that umbrella? And student government can be a little bit more of an assisting tool as a jump-off point, as a financial resource for all students.” But I just didn’t want it to be anything that people combatted. And I was really surprised to see pushback. But it happens. Ho: Yeah. For sure. And when you’re in a position like you were in, you’re always going to have to deal with it, I suppose. Adamsel: Yeah. And I think I knew that. But I think pushback is weird coming from people who also very well are attacked. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: People are marginalized. People are—They may face similar struggles or very different struggles than me. But when I get to a point of leadership, I want people—If I’m acknowledging the issues that you may have in society or in life or in navigating the university, I want you to be able to sort of have the same selfless nature and acknowledge how things might not be equal to anyone. And when we can do that, then it’s like okay, we can always have a conversation with anyone because then you’re able to put yourself metaphorically in somebody else’s shoes. And I think that’s the biggest thing. And I think, as a leader, that’s one of the things that allowed me to get along with just about anyone and everyone because I’m able to talk to you and be like “Okay. Have you considered this? Or is there anything about you and your needs that I need to consider? And through conversation and communication, we get to the bottom of that.” But there are sometimes there’s people that don’t want to talk. And they don’t want to have to develop and change their views, even for a little bit, because that means I have to give something up. And if you think you have to give something up just for somebody else to be comfortable, to feel seen, to have that same equity that you do, then I’m like you don’t really want change. You just want to be comfortable. You want to be there by yourself on an island of comfort. Yeah. Exactly. And I think you can expect it from certain people, certain groups. Like if somebody is blatantly, overtly racist, you can expect it from that person. But when it comes from a person, you’re like “Oh, you can be a person of color. You can be a marginalized community. You can be—” You know, even in my community. It’s like you expect yourself to have the same views and values. You may not. And that’s okay. But you just push through it. And you learn and see okay, what can I do to bypass that pushback? And try to—I think that was one thing special, as a Black male student leader. I used to have to be calm, reserved. And I used to have to think strategically, to the point, because I know how I can be perceived on a day-to-day basis. And I know in certain spaces, you’re not going to come talk to me. And in certain places, I would be disrespected. But I’m just like “Wow. It’s crazy.” Because if I lose my cool, I Transcribed by Melissa Martin 18 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 could be taken off into a totally different direction. (talks as if mimicking students) “Oh, he doesn’t care about us. What a mean person!” So, I understood how—even going back, I understood my relationship to people and my relationship to the university. And it’s a crazy thing to acknowledge, but that was one of the things that, being a student there, being student government president, working in leadership, catering to students, and even being a professional staff, I always had to be mindful of who I was in my relationship to people because I knew, especially based on who I am, I could easily be misconstrued. Ho: Thank you. Okay. Are there any questions that I should have asked but didn’t? Adamsel: Hhmmm. (laughs) Nah. I mean I don’t’ know. I have no idea. (Jenn laughs) Well, actually, you didn’t talk about the social justice activism. Ho: Yes. I did not ask that question. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: Would you like to go into that? How has Black social justice and activism, such as the Civil Rights Movement, Feminism, the Natural Hair Movement, and Black Lives Matter affected you? Thank you for calling it out. Adamsel: I think those movements affected me in different ways all over. When I think about the Civil Rights Movement and different things like that, I correlate the Civil Rights Movement going back to— think about Martin Luther King but even thinking about Martin Luther King and communities like Black communities in that day, pushing for equality, equity, and civil rights. I think back to education. I think of Carter G. Woods and miseducation of the Negro. I think about people pushing for Black people to be educated. And so, when I look at the Black populations on campus, I think back to, man, equity. What are we doing to change that generation from the generation before us? What are we doing to push more Black professionals into the workforce? Hopefully with as little overhead as possible, and getting them into the career fields, one, that they love but also making sure that they have the network not only to do what they love and then succeed and excel at it. When it came to the Natural Hair Movement, I’m in that all day, with the little bit that I have. But I think that was something where when I’d seen the Natural Hair Movement, I saw that take place on campus to where men and women in our spaces, you know, “Let’s create these events that our natural hair shows” and getting more Black businesses into our university and making sure when Black students are at campus at Cal State San Marcos, they know the local barbers, the local hair stylists that can do what they need to do, whether it’s protective styles, wear your natural hair. I like that because it builds a sense of community within our group but then it also builds a sense of collaboration in our area, increasing that network. When I think about feminism, I think back to Professor Michelle Holland. I think about when I took a feminist rhetorical theory course from her. She’s one of the greatest professors ever. But she’s tough. She going to give you the grade that you deserve. (laughs) And a great professor. But then, I think learning about feminism and learning about the multi-layered areas in feminism and how ideas about feminism—I just didn’t. I looked at my relationship to who I was based on what feminism was talking about and really, I’m like, man. I don’t see myself in this space because a lot of what you’re preaching, some of the feminist ideals from the beginning, it has racism in it. Black women, it’s like we could promote March for Women’s Rights but I’m like, yeah. If you tell me white women got to vote—what was it? Like 54 years before Black women got the vote—there’s inequity there. And if you don’t—I forget—Elizabeth Cady Stanton and everybody on those beginnings, if you’re preaching and you’re sponsoring the beginnings of feminism and there’s Transcribed by Melissa Martin 19 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 racism, I can’t be a part of it. But when I got to learn more about different women in the Black rhetorical feminism and seeing pockets of where Black women have to face racism and sexism in society, I feel like it was very intercommunity focused. And I felt like I chose to look at it as something like—I don’t want to disregard any woman if they’re feeling oppressed or if they have real life things that they’re dealing with, whether it’s sexual assault, abuse, even inequities in pay. These are all bad things. But I think I love to bring it back to focus on where’s my relationship in it and how can I look at it to where I’m the most involved. And I think that brought it back to it looks at family. It looks at the women in your immediate circle. It can look at your relationship with women all over. But, instead of trying to put a mind frame on “Do you love it all?” No. (chuckles) When it comes to feminism, I don’t like all the history. And there are so many different types. I did enjoy researching all about the different variations of feminism. Man, when you dive into it, some are radicals. Some are not. Some are not inclusive. Some are really inclusive. So, I really like that, breaking those things down. And I think it really starts with self. It really starts with how you’re raised, and really looking at how can you impact the community and the area and the women that you’re ultimately in communication with every day? And if you start to see signs of “Hey, somebody’s disrespectful. Somebody did something, the wrong thing.” Or “How do I understand Title IX regulations?” If somebody comes to me and “This is what happened to me!” or “Somebody took advantage of me,” did I do my due diligence to understand, on this campus, do I know how to offer assistance? Do I know how to report, if I’m a mandated reporter? What can I do to make sure, ultimately, that any woman that’s around me, that I come in contact with even if I don’t know her for about an hour or something, if they come to me with needs or issues, even outside the lens of I could take from feminism, but just being a great person, or being a good person, and making sure you’re assisting, or you can. And I think—And stepping outside the box and saying “I’m a guy. I don’t do it. I’m a Black guy. That never happened with me with you.” Or “I don’t think that could happen because I didn’t see it like that.” Being able to take a step back and like “Man. I never thought of it like that.” Or “I didn’t know that that could be misconstrued.” Or “I didn’t know that was a thing.” Can I educate myself? Can I learn how to help? Can I be a better me for the women in my life or my friend, my colleagues? I think I try every day. I’m not going to come on here and say, “Louis was a feminist.” But I’m going to come on here and say through research, through history, through learning from great professors like Professor Holland, learning from classmates and women in my life, ultimately, that’s one of the things that I feel like that affected me to make sure like “Man. I need to know about how it’s affecting people, near and dear to me.” And even if they’re not near and dear to me, how can my relationship still be on a level playing field? And the last topic was Black Lives Matter. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: How has that affected me? And, for me, man. I think Black Lives Matter has affected me in a multitude of ways. And it has been funny, because I don’t really talk about Black Lives Matter. But one of the things I think about Black Lives Matter is like uh, it’s a basic statement. And it’s basic to me because I’m Black. I know I matter. You couldn’t tell me anything otherwise. It’s just common sense to me. And I see people shouting it. And I’m like “Oh, that’s great! Black lives do matter, yeah. I fuck with that.” I mean—my language— (seems embarrassed) I believe in that. (both laugh) But I think one of the things that it really affects me differently when I look at an organization like Black Lives Matter and I don’t know if I like all the tactics that I see from it. Ho: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 20 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Adamsel: And I say that because I’m not a fan of Black male death. And, you know, I’m a Black male in America. But when I see death, I almost wonder—You know, I think back to throughout history we have big signs of death. You have Emmett Till. You think about police brutality with Rodney King. I’m from Watts, so I think about that. I think back to even growing up in places where you’re like, man, a Black man could have been murdered or shot. Or you see it on the news, police brutality, this, that, and the third. And it’s, for me, I’m not taking away any good that they might be able to do. But, for me, one of the things that sucks is just seeing Black male death. And you can see it in recent actions like George Floyd. And there’s so many names, even to this day. It has probably been a lot of Black male and I don’t even want to negate Black female death, Black trans men and women death. But I’m just like man. So, imagine you’re living in a society where every time a Black male, female, any identity is killed, they get a segment on TV. You probably get to see the death, their struggle. There’s a lot of reposting, re-Tweets. Before, it used to be—Like I think something that happened, because I think there was something—I think it was in Missouri or, I forget. But it was a death of a Black man, but I think it was on the— something bad had happened with something else. But I think I even was at school at Cal State San Marcos, and I could see the university didn’t want to talk about that. But they chose to talk about another topic. So, sometimes you see businesses. But now, it’s the hot thing to do. Businesses will talk about the black death or say “We stand with you.” But I wonder, when it comes down to it, how much do you really stand with that group if it’s not representative of whether it’s in your hiring, whether it’s in your policies, whether anything. But I think it has become easier for people to say it without somebody else looking at them. And when I look at organizations like Black Lives Matter, I’m not too invested in them because I live—this is my daily life. This is what we live through. We live through relationships. We live through how people perceive us. We make our own understanding of the world. But I’m, personally, not a fan of Black death and the highlighting of Black death in any facet. And I don’t really know how, when it comes to all of that, you’ve got to think. A lot of this stuff happened when I was in school. But after I graduated, I also worked at Cal State San Marcos for the Emergency Management Department. And my department was actually conveniently located in the Police Department. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And that also was like another thing because it’s like you get to see the differences. I get to see officers, and I like officers in that capacity. But then, I get to also see officers and I’m like I don’t really know, don’t really have a relationship with you. I’m not saying I had a relationship with every single officer at Cal State, but I can also say that I’ve never had a relationship with every single officer in the world. But based on what’s going on in the United States, I could see like “Wow. It’s tragic out here.” So, for me, I think, yeah, just going back to it. Black Lives Matter is not something that, personally, I’m like running to the streets to protest for. I don’t. Because until some of the—I don’t know. I think it has to be a different way to protest for what you need without promoting that death factor. Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that because of Black Lives Matter, we’re witnessing so much death of Black men without seeing an increase in equity in other areas? Adamsel: Yeah. And I don’t even want to put that on Black Lives Matter. Ho: Okay. Adamsel: But this is an organization that they will do their work. But, ultimately, out of their work you see a lot of organizations making statements, pushing out this narrative because they think without Transcribed by Melissa Martin 21 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 making a statement back to Black people, it might be a hindrance to their business, their operations, their reputation. When you focus on people, business, operations, reputation, oh! Snap! There’s a financial impact. People might not want to shop here. Somebody might even think there might be a protest and then somebody might use a protest as an opportunity to loot this store. And it might not be a Black person. There might be anybody. But I think it’s in their best interest, it’s in the organization’s best interest, to focus on the Black population. And I don’t think it started with Black Lives Matter, showcasing that. But I think it has increased. I think people look at that organization as a beacon. And there is a ton of Black grassroots organizations that are out there trying to make change, trying to do different things. I won’t say I’m educated about all of the work that is taking place within Black Lives Matter and what is taking place in all those grassroots organizations. But me personally, talking about Black Lives Matter and how it has affected me, I’m like man. Any Black person, I think, when you look at Black death over and over, not even only Black people, you look at outside the community, you’re like, okay. How do people feel if they see somebody Black on the news die? Ultimately, their head is like “Oh, another one.” And go about their day. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: It has become so repetitive to the point where it’s just like you sort of become numb to it. And I never want to be numb to Black death. But, ultimately, with the push of social media, these graphic scenes, these things that—They need justice. It needs to be brought to light. But I’m like, man. It affects people. It affects me. And I just don’t want it to affect me to the point where I’m just numb, completely. (chuckles) Ho: Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, you’re seeing it too much and you’re afraid that you will start to become numb because it’s just everywhere now. Adamsel: And like you said, after a while—I don’t know how other Black people feel. I feel how I’m going to feel. But, after a while, you start looking and you start wondering, when will things change? Have they changed? If they’ll ever change? And right now, you can’t answer that. But have they changed from when your parents were going through it, or your family went through it to now? I can’t say they have. I can say, “Oh, it’s visualized a lot more.” So, at what point do you get away from visualization and you get towards action, you get towards new policies, you get towards actual protections for people who are people but they’re not being treated like such? And then, when they’re not being treated like people, why is that? I know it’s going to be a sound bite. I know it’s going to be popular. This is probably going to make news media, companies money. Because everybody’s infuriated. Everybody’s enraged. They’re the talk of the town. And I just wish Black death wasn’t the talk of the town. I wish it never had to get to that. Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. What else have we not covered that you would like to cover? Adamsel: Um. Ho: Anything? Adamsel: Let’s see. (appears to be reading something off-screen) External…Institutional… Ho: And did you think of any more people that you’d like to give a shout out about? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 22 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Adamsel: I did not. Like I said, they’re probably going to have to come text me and talk to me, if I forgot. (both laugh) But no. I don’t know if I have anything more that’s major. I think I probably spoke more indepth than I thought I ended up needing to. But it was good. For me, it was a good conversation. I didn’t know it was going to go down that path or even we were going to get in-depth in all those questions. But I do appreciate it. I mean I do like the level of support that the library is trying to do to bring these thoughts together, I guess, before we get too old, and we start forgetting. Ho: Yeah. Adamsel: Especially like the part we played in all of it. Ho: Mm-hmm. That is really important, for sure. Adamsel: Yeah. And when you all showcase this, especially with memory, is this something if a student, in 2059, they’ll be scrolling, they’ll be able to go “Oh, University Archives, Black Student Center origin,” or something like that? Ho: Yeah. Basically. I don’t know that it would just be a bunch of videos available to a random scroller. But, for future researchers who are interested in the university’s history or the Black student experience on our school or in general in America or California or, you know, student life identity-focused centers, things like that. It’ll definitely be available to researchers. Adamsel: I hope that they have a great experience learning more about that. I feel like sometimes, when you learn more about the Black students experience in California or probably in most schools that probably are not, even historically, Black universities, but when I think of a Black student’s relationship with higher education and with inequity in the world, and then you play that into the normal wealth gap with African Americans, Black people in America, with anybody else, it’s a crazy contrast between how many of us are going to universities is a crazy contrast with inequities. And you would think more people would be like “Oh, let’s do what we can to make that look like a better option.” And it doesn’t start at college. It starts with the K-12 system as well. So, it’s just like our relationship with the education system between what we know is designed to make people, ultimately, better off, there’s something that’s going on that makes us look like that institution is not for me. I don’t want to be there. And I’m just like, man. It sucks. But I can’t act like college is for everyone. I can’t act like it appeals to everyone. It appeals to all of us differently. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: I just wish there was more to offer everybody who chose to go that route because there is so few of us as is. Ho: Yeah. It would be great if every person in America saw college as an option. Even if they chose not to go— Adamsel: Mm-hmm. Ho: —if they at least knew that it was an option that was viable for them if they wanted to go. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: That would be ideal for sure. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 23 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Adamsel: Exactly. And I think that’s very true. Ho: So, if there is nothing else, I will stop the recording. Is there anything you want to end with before I stop the recording? Adamsel: Uh, no. I mean, I think the biggest thing is when it comes to ending, I’m very happy with the growth that the Center, Cal State San Marcos, has afforded me in my growth. I went to the university at 19. So, they’re some of the best years of growing in who I was as a leader. I think I knew who I was as a leader when I came. But through a mentorship, through role models, through networking, I think I became an even better person than I ever hoped I’d be by the time I left. And really staying connected, being able to be aligned with Black leaders, leaders of all different identities—because I used to only think I could only learn from Black people—but college taught me I could almost learn from anyone who is willing to teach, who’s willing to give out that helping hand. And it was a lovely place for me to grow. And I’m happy with the growth that I’ve achieved there. And I’m ultimately happy with the students that I’ve been able to see grow there as well and graduate. And even people that—It might not have been somebody who had their hand out for me, who looked like me when I first got to the university. But I was able to step up and get help from a lot of different people. And so, when somebody else came behind me, I just wanted to make sure okay, we continue to build that bridge and we make sure that these new students have the opportunity that wasn’t afforded to me. And even looking back to friends, Tiffany, Jamailah, even friends I met along the way, everyone was sort of like that key network to help keep Black students afloat and, ultimately, stay engaged through university and break all the barriers that we even thought were there. So, thanks to San Marcos. Thanks to the University Library. I know you all still got the mural probably in there. Ho: Yeah. Hopefully it stays there! Yeah, it’s beautiful. Adamsel: Yeah. I know. It’s amazing. But thank you for even interviewing. Ho: All right. Thanks for being part of it, Louis. Adamsel: No problem. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 24 2024-01 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adamsel, Louis. Interview transcript, May 18, 2021. Description An account of the resource In this interview, Louis Adamsel speaks on his time as an undergraduate student at California State University San Marcos, aspects of his life as a student leader, his experience as a Black student and, later, as a staff member. Adamsel discusses his advocacy for the creation of the Black Student Center and the purpose the BSC serves to students, including the necessity of having a variety of resources in order to retain underserved students. He also speaks on mentorships and partnerships, both within the Black community and across identities and spaces. This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Louis Adamsel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-05-18 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Staff California State University San Marcos -- Students Civil rights Student Success Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Moreno Valley (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Watts (Los Angeles, Calif.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-18_transcript Activists and activism Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/226612c0577f663c67ab24dd321c55c1.pdf cd7aae43e52969e82eec74a15793f4d1 PDF Text Text TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 Biographical Note: Throughout his career Tomme Arthur has gained a reputation in the industry for his focus on Belgianstyle ales, national awards, and mentorship of newer brewers. He is a frequent presenter at various brewing conferences. Tomme Arthur has been involved in several San Diego breweries, most notably as founder and managing owner of Lost Abbey Brewing located in San Marcos, CA. His first professional brewing position was at the short-lived Cervecería La Cruda in San Diego, CA founded by Troy Hojel. Arthur moved to Pizza Port Brewing in Solana Beach, California as an assistant brewer. After becoming Director of Brewing Operations for the increasing number of locations, he led the chain in garnering numerous beer awards. He opened Lost Abbey Brewing in 2006 to focus on his interest in Belgian-style beers. Lost Abbey remained in a partnership with Pizza Port under the Port Brewing umbrella. The Lost Abbey opened in the original location for Stone Brewing, vacated when Stone moved to Escondido, CA. The brewhouse underwent an extensive expansion in 2019 to accommodate the additional beverage brands Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles and Kharisma. Lost Abbey expansion included tasting rooms The Confessional in Cardiff, CA, The Sanctuary in the San Elijio Hills neighborhood of San Marcos, CA, and The Church in downtown San Diego, CA. In late 2023, Arthur separated Lost Abbey from Port Brewing operations in a ‘right-sizing’ plan in response to beer industry trends. Port Brewing retained the Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles, and Kharisma brands in their portfolio and took over the San Marcos production space and closed the tasting room. Lost Abbey entered an alternating proprietorship agreement with Mother Earth Brewing to share their production space in nearby Vista, CA. Mother Earth had closed a tasting room at this location when they moved the bulk of brewing operations to Idaho. Arthur announced plans to renovate and re-open the tasting room space. Judith Downie: 00:00:00 So today is August 8th, 2019 and this is Judith Downie, the Curator of the CSUSM Brewchive® with Tomme Arthur, founder and co-owner of Lost Abbey, the Hop Concept, Port Brewing, and myriad other projects that we're going to be asking about. So tell me, the purpose of this is to kind of record in one place things I've seen in a lot of places. You know, you've been very generous with your time with people mentoring and interviewing. And so this is for the Brewchive®, basically an overall history of your life experiences as a brewer, thoughts, things like that. So, we do have a list of questions here, which again I'll read them off, I may reword them a little bit and you are open to responding to them however you need. And I hope we have plenty of time that you've talked about things that maybe nobody's ever asked you. Tomme Arthur: 00:00:59 That would be fun. Yeah. JD: 00:01:01 So record these things for posterity. So, let's start with your background. To be clear, from what I've seen, you started home Transcribed by Judith Downie 1 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 brewing in Arizona while you were in college and how did that start? TA: 00:01:16 So I am a native San Diegan. My family's three to four generations on both sides. Went to Saint Augustine High School. When I was in high school, I decided that I really liked the English language and I wanted to study English and felt that teaching was a path that I would probably take. JD: 00:01:30 Okay. TA: 00:01:31 And so I fell in love with Flagstaff as a campus and community. And the school at Northern Arizona University had a really good education teaching program. So that's how I ended up in Flagstaff. When I got to school, I met a family, last name is Gardner and, and their son, Tom. And I became very close and the Gardner family really was into beer and they were sort of my mentors to beer. TA: 00:02:00 And they said, you know, we're going to teach you about better beer. And of course, I was only 18 at the time, but you know, I wasn't gonna say no. And they kind of pushed me in this direction of here's what better beer looks like, tastes like. American beer, imported beer, Canadian, very English, you know, all the, all the different countries where a great beer would have come from. A lot of it at that time was imported of course. JD: 00:2:22 Right. Because really, you know, we're talking what the... TA: 00:2:26 1991 and 95 was when I was in school. JD: 00:2:27 Okay. So there really wasn't much of a craft beer scene in Arizona I don't think. TA: 00:2:31 There were very few craft breweries in Arizona. In fact, there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff at the time. We ended up having three open up in my last year of school. But there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff and at that time. There was likely to be 10 or 15 probably in the entire state. But we've got a lot of regional beers. There was a lot of beer from Oregon, Washington, Northern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado beer. So there was some American craft. But mostly from very older players, you know, Sierra Nevada Anchor, Deschutes <Brewery>, big, bigger breweries. Transcribed by Judith Downie 2 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:03:08 And being that the craft beer scene in San Diego was still pretty young in that time period. Do you remember seeing anything from San Diego? TA: 00:03:16 No. In fact we, we actually talk about this a lot, that prior to Stone Brewing coming into San Diego, nobody actually sent beer outside of San Diego. Karl Strauss <Brewing> had beer in San Diego at the time and packaged in bottles. But they, I don't believe much of their beer, if any, was leaving the San Diego area. So my understanding is that it really wasn't until Stone opened their doors and shipped beer to Arizona, likely maybe Nevada, you need to ask them, where they crossed the state line and perhaps were one of the original new craft breweries to actually make beer to leave San Diego. JD: 00:03:51 Which is really interesting because I have in my pre-Prohibition research on San Diego craft brewing found Mission Brewing. They were brewing beer to supplement San Diego Consolidated Brewing, which is San Diego Brewing Company <today>. They were San Diego Consolidated Brewing for a while and Arizona passed Prohibition in 1914, five years before National Prohibition and halted any shipment of even Hopski, which was a near beer Mission was brewing, into the state. They weren't even allowing that. And there was a big lawsuit and Mission Brewing lost and that was the contributing factor to the closure of Mission through that. TA: 00:04:28 They actually lost out on a nonalcoholic or near beer. JD: 00:04:31 Yeah. Hopski, and they didn't continue to brew that because J. H. Zitt, who was the president, the current owner of San Diego Consolidated Brewing had said ‘I will never brew anything but real beer.’ So he's the one who decided to close Mission. Because he actually owned it at the time because his father-inlaw and brother-in-law, who had founded Mission, had walked away. TA: 00:04:58 Yeah, the old San Diego stuff is really interesting. JD: 00:05:00 Yeah, and it's a, it's an interesting kind of parallel between you being in Arizona and starting your interest in beer there and then coming back to San Diego. Transcribed by Judith Downie 3 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:05:12 But I've also seen that you've noted that your favorite beers are Belgian style. What? TA: 00:05:16 I just find them to be very unique and I think that there's, there's a pretty, I guess when I first got started in brewing in my sort of craft foundation, they were the most unique things out there. And that, that today is not necessarily the case. There's so many new producers and people that have really taken the boundaries and, and stretched them and moved them in directions. I think ostensibly under a Belgian influence or sort of what amounts to be a Belgian artistry, but there's a lot more to it these days. And I just think that if you, if you become imaginative about beer, you have to look at what the Belgians did or were doing at that time. Technique wise, yeast wise flavors, just process things. Very unconventional via what, what would amount to be a very conventional sort of brewing, you know, take four malts or take four ingredients. You can, you used a lot of water and hops and that's beer. And then you look at what they do. And it's completely different. JD: 00:06:10 So you think the Belgians weren't constrained by the purity law that the Germans had and that's part of what led to their inventiveness? TA: 00:06:17 Yeah, I just feel like they as a group embraced different methodologies and, and that sometimes weren't easy. And those methods at least preserved flavors that couldn't be found in beer, again, conventional beer. JD: 00:06:33 Okay. Very interesting. So, onto your actual brewing experiences. You started home brewing? I read it was a homebrew kit... TA: 00:06:44 So the Gardner’s bought me a home brew kit early for my graduation. So, I was gifted it in January of 1995 and that's when we started homebrewing. JD: 00:06:50 Okay. And you didn't like the first beer you brewed? TA: 00:06:52 The first beer we brewed, it was a black style, you know, sort of a dry Irish Guinness-style stout, but it came out very thin and didn't taste like Guinness or anything. So it wasn't, it was not a good beer. But you know, I think the expectations were high and probably should have set the bar a little lower. JD: 00:07:08 Was this extract or all grain? Transcribed by Judith Downie 4 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:07:09 It was extract for sure. JD: 00:07:12 Yeah. Because of course supplies even in the 90s, were still kind of hard to come by. TA: 00:07:15 Yeah, we were pretty lucky there was a homebrewer outpost in Flagstaff, so there was a store that sold ingredients that we could've, we could've started in an all-grain basis. But I was living in a house with four people and it just wasn't really, I didn't have the resources to go build a full all grain brewing system, with the plastic fermenters and you know, boiling on the stove top kind of stuff was definitely where it was at. JD: 00:07:40 Yeah, you got to start somewhere. So, then you came back to San Diego. Was that, what was the reason for coming leaving Arizona? TA: 00:07:47 So I graduated in June or May of 1995. JD: 00:07:50 So was this your bachelor's or your teaching credential? TA: 00:07:52 This was my bachelors of arts in just English. And at that point I didn't really want to stay in Flagstaff and I wasn't gonna attend grad school there. So, I moved back home and so I left. And when I got home I kind of kicked around a little bit trying to figure out what I was going to do and really didn't have a plan necessarily I was able to go back and live with my parents. And you know, the only requirement was that I find a job. So, I found a job and that's kinda how I got in the downtown life. My dad had a printing business when I was growing up, so I was very, very well trained and I worked in the campus print shop when I was in school. So, I applied for a printing job in a downtown San Diego business and I was commuting, taking the trolley from La Mesa down into downtown San Diego every day. And I happened to be reading want ads, just, it was all that was left in the newspaper at that point. And stumbled upon a brew pub opening that had an ad in the paper for cooks, dishers, all that stuff in it said assistant brewer and I circled it. And I walked over the next day at lunch and applied for a job. And that was actually Cervecería La Cruda. JD: 00:09:00 Right, with Troy Hojel? So, you actually opened Cervecería La Cruda in September of ‘96? TA: 00:09:10 No, they, they would have opened, I think it would've been March of 96 ‘cause we ended up, we attended the great Transcribed by Judith Downie 5 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 American beer festival in September, October of 96 and then it closed. It was less than a full year. I think I was hired in April, May-ish. and then I wasn't there even for a full year. JD: 00:09:27 Yeah. I have, I have March ‘97 is when it closed. TA: 00:09:31 So I think it probably was mid April-ish I would've been hired in. We didn't even make it a full year. JD: 00:09:39 Yeah. This is the kind of thing I like because I have a very large Excel spreadsheet of every brewery from 1868 which was Chollas Valley Brewery through today. Whether they opened or closed, it never made it, pulled the license, whatever... TA: 00:09:55 So, how many different breweries have attempted to open? Are we in the three hundreds or? JD: 00:09:58 Well, my Excel spreadsheet also includes all the individual tasting rooms because generally they pull a separate ABC license. I'm up over 550 getting close to 600 I think, but I could certainly get back to you with how many tried and never even actually opened. I think there's a real object lesson there. TA: 00:10:18 I think the most interesting thing is that we operate that there's 160 or whatever right now that are active, but it's really interesting to know kind of how many have kind of opened and closed and opened and closed and where you know, you can say, okay, since prohibition we've had 208 that have tried or participated in this, in this scene. JD: 00:10:37 Yeah, because I break the whole history into three parts. There was a pre-Prohibition 1868 to 1919, 1919/1920 then 1933 to 1953 because Aztec, which had sold to Altes Brewing, closed and they were the last brewery operating post-Prohibition and then we didn't pick up again until the <19>80s so I can extract that information and get it to you because those numbers are always very powerful. TA: 00:11:05 Yeah. I just feel like it'd be interesting to say since Prohibition, there's been 208 licenses that were issued or over, you know, JD: 00:11:12 And then there were others that announced a name or announced that they were going to open and never even got around to pulling a license. You know, so I have, I have every single possible name of any business that ever said ‘we are going to be a brewery or a brew pub, or...’ Transcribed by Judith Downie 6 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:11:28 No one ever drops on in front of you and you say, haven't heard of it. JD: 00:11:30 Well actually not too long ago, I ran across one called the Royal Duffer. And that evidently they were contract brewing. They were in Carlsbad and they were like four golf buddies. And so they had beer for, again, I think it was less than a year. And I haven't been able to find out too much information from them, but I'm very alert to, ‘Oh, I don't think I've ever heard of that name before’ so this is the first one I've not heard of in a long time. So I think I'm pretty comprehensive. But yeah. Yeah, it's been interesting and a lot of work. But going back to Troy, is Troy still around? TA: 00:12:10 He is in somewhere in Colorado outside of Denver. In fact, I just talked to him the other day. He texted me, I think his cousin opened a brewery in Texas and he had a question or two. TA: 00:12:20 So yeah. He's in Colorado and doing the software. JD: 00:12:23 Okay. So he's no longer in the brewing business. TA: 00:12:25 No, actually he left the brewery business and ended up doing software in Northern California for a bit, I think, and then moved off to Colorado. JD: 00:12:33 Well, it's gotta be sad to watch your dream die especially so quickly. TA: 00:12:35 You know, it was a pretty aggressive life lesson, you know? It taught me a lot in the short time that we were into it. I still think that Troy is one of the best brewers I've ever met. And it would've been a really cool thing to see it succeed at, but certainly would've put me on a different life path, I think if it had. So I don't, I don't try not to, you know, revisionist history, that part of it. But the beers that he made and he was a very technical brewer, I think, I think it would've been, it would've added to the scene even more. JD: 00:13:05 Yeah. What actually happened? Was it just lack of sales? TA: 00:13:09 I think more than anything it was a bad, is a bad business model. I don't know if you know the story of Baja Brewing Company. JD: Transcribed by Judith Downie 00:13:17 I'm familiar with the name, but not really the story. 7 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:13:20 So Baja Brewing Company opened up and they claimed to be the very first Mexican-themed brewpub in the United States. Now it was their claim to fame. But what happened is that the partners at Baja Brewing and the partners at La Cruda actually had a schism and they split. They were going to open the Baja Brewing Company together or something along those lines and they had a falling out and the partnership dissolved. And so these guys opened Baja Brewing Company and less than three or four months later Cervecería La Cruda opened up three blocks away. So the very first Mexican theme brewpub in this country opened up and three blocks later and three months and three blocks over the second one opened. So, very underfunded from the get-go. Very, it was a 13,000 square foot building at Forth and Island, you know, big, big building. Too much of it to just for the time I, I'd be nervous opening a 13,000 square foot building brewpub today. And you know, back when the Gaslamp was kind of still new and trendy and hot, I don't know what the rent was, but just overall a bad, a bad vision I think for what was going on. JD: 00:14:31 Ahead of its time. Really. TA: 00:14:32 Yeah. And the thing that's kind of crazy is that Cervecería La Cruda to them is a hangover brewery. So when you say ‘tengo la cruda’, that means I have the crud, I'm not feeling well. That's not a real great way to tell people you want to come here and drink. They opened up with a menu that they had sourced from the family that owned El Callejon in Encinitas. So, they had this really great, I would say deep, deep Mexican Sonoran source, you know, for and things. But that wasn't on anyone's radar with respect to craft brew at the time. So, good people, great, great opportunity. But not even something, that I think today, even if you attempted to tackle it, would probably work really well. JD: 00:15:12 So as you say, a real experience. TA: 00:15:14 Yeah, a lot I learned from, you look around and you see simplicity sometimes wins. JD: 00:15:20 Or slow growth. Planned slower. TA: 00:15:22 Or have more money than you think. Yeah. Transcribed by Judith Downie 8 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:15:27 Somebody said to me one time something like, you need five times more than you think you do. And I would, I think that's true with any business really. But the expense of equipment and materials and everything and you just can't do it all yourself. TA: 00:15:40 No. You gotta be able to weather a lot of storms. JD: 00:15:44 And you know, with this, I know in September of 2016 I went to the craft beer conference up in Sacramento and I saw you speak there and you at that time, this is three years ago now, said that San Diego was already over-saturated, and you would not open up a brewery at this point in San Diego. And how many breweries have we had open up? TA: 00:16:06 Continues to be a head-scratching thing. Yeah. Well, we joke, I mean, we're here in San Marcos now. I've got three breweries within a one-mile stretch. Right. So yeah, that's just the way it is. Yeah. JD: 00:16:21 But you're each different. Accommodating everybody at some point. But so when La Cruda closed, you moved to White Labs for just a couple of months in yeast sales. Was that based because you knew about yeast? TA: 00:16:34 So White Labs had just kinda gotten their feet wet. So I remember the very first day when I was at La Cruda, one of the very first days I was at La Cruda. Chris White1 walked in on a sales call. And so we were chatting and talking and at some point, and this is a part of my history that I don't remember all of that clearly, but I ended up moving in with them. I mean I was a roommate and I think there was a crossover point where I was working at La Cruda, but I already moved into their house. Cause he and Lisa had an empty room. I needed a place to stay. And then when La Cruda was on its way to be closing it became kind of obvious that I could help them in their infancy of their company with some just R and D and just different trialing and things like that. TA: 00:17:15 You know, I had met a lot of brewers in Arizona at that time. So Chris said, well, why don't you come help me just kind of knock down some doors and you know, we just need somebody that can walk in and kind of talk about this in a very brewer friendly kind of way. So my goal was I was kind of like an ambassador really. You know, I didn't really do a lot of pure sales but my job was to talk about it and explain how my experience with 1 Chris White is the founder of White Labs. Transcribed by Judith Downie 9 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 different yeasts and temperatures and things like that. So it was kind of just yeah, I think it was more of a product, product knowledge and ambassador at that point. JD: 00:17:47 Was there any conversation at that time about opening up a tasting room for yeast labs? TA: 00:17:51 No. No. I mean, maybe Chris had it, but it you know, that was a pretty, it was a long time ago and there wasn't really a sense of yeast as a business outside of the yeast business. I don't think there was sort of that auxiliary layer to it. I'm sure Chris would have liked to have had a bunch of beers on tap, but I, I would imagine if he had had that thought back then that they would have probably just wanted 10 beers on tap for their customers to come sample them, but not necessarily not, not really treat it as an educational function for the consumer as much as an educational experience for a brewer who maybe hadn't worked a certain use and things like that. I mean there's just an enormous amount of yeasts that have been banked since we started. Since I got my first job in 1996 there's been an enormous amount of new yeast that had been added. So, they need an avenue to show people what those yeasts do. JD: 00:18:41 And back then too, you probably had a lot of brewers, even professional brewers, would be how I see it. That didn't really understand a lot about the hops that were available. The yeast that was available, you know, cause a lot of them had, were coming out of the homebrew experience and you know, all of a sudden here's more stuff you need to know. TA: 00:19:02 If you go back and look at it ‘95, ‘96 to, so that time, I mean we're talking about a dial up modem, you know, we're talking about low internet speed, we're talking about not... JD: 00:19:08 A lot of people, not even having computers or knowing how to use it. TA: 00:19:12 Not even a lot of Information online. Frankly. I mean you couldn't, you could not do all the kind of information that's out there today. And, and past that, a lot of the information that did exist in book format was highly technical through the ASBC2 and the big brewers. And then what was available that had been written about the sort of homebrew level and medium brewery. There wasn't a lot of medium brewery stuff in there, so you American Society of Brewing Chemists. Transcribed by Judith Downie 2 10 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 were getting a lot of books on how to brew ales, but they had this really big English, you know, sort of basis to them. Cask condition, real ale ingredients weren't American in their basis. So there was no ability to look up and say, Oh, how do I use this German hefeweizen yeast? You know, how do I, how much do I pitch it, what temperature, how does it behave? And none of that information existed. JD: 00:19:59 So a lot of technical stuff. TA: 00:20:00 Yeah. even just simplistic technical. What's the right temperature? JD: 00:20:03 And around here San Diego was still something of a Coors town that's San Diego was test market for a couple of different, for Coors Light and for Herman Joseph's 1868 and you know, so really do you have much of a market for... TA: 00:20:18 In fact, we joked about it here. This was the best, I think this was the best-selling Coors light town when I took in, when I got into brewing, this was the number one Coors Light in the country. JD: 00:02:26 Yes, it was. TA: 00:02:28 Well that explains to you, you know, where we're, where we were and where we came from. And on top of that you had all the import beers too, right? You still had Coronas and Pacifico and the Modelos in the world doing very well here at that time too. So yeah, it was a, it was a long ways to the top. JD: 00:20:42 So you weren't at White Labs for very long before you were hired by Pizza Port. Pizza Port just had the one location then, right? TA: 00:20:48 They had the one location in Solana Beach. Vincent, Gina3 had been partners in the Carlsbad Public House with a guy named Brett. I think his last name was Stamp. JD: 00:21:00 Tetley Ridden4, I, it's a hyphenated name. TA: 00:21:07 Yeah. And then he became a, they, they had a falling out with Carlsbad Public House and they were in, they were in the 3 4 Vincent and Gina Marsaglia Redmayne-Titley Transcribed by Judith Downie 11 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 process of converting the Public House, which is the Pizza Port in Carlsbad in the village into the Pizza Port at that time. So I was, I was brought into assist on Solana Beach because the head brewer was going to go have shoulder surgery and then they were supposed to move me up to Carlsbad to take over the production of the brewing and Carlsbad once, once he came back. So there was almost a second Pizza Port in line at that time. So they were, they were in the home stretch of the construction to convert it from the Public House to Pizza Port, which opened in July of 1997 so they were real close. And I always like to tell the story ‘cause I think it's very fascinating to me. I'd never stepped foot in Pizza Port before I got interviewed for the job. So I had no real perceived concept or notion of what exactly they did or what they didn't do. JD: 00:22:02 Okay. And so you were an assistant brewer then? You weren't head brewer? TA: 00:22:10 Yeah. Eddie Class, I think his last name was Classic. He was the head brewer at that time. And Vince was going to be the head brewer in Carlsbad when they opened. So yeah, Eddie was in charge of the brewery in Solana Beach and he was gonna go, I think I was going to have rotator cuff surgery and take about three months off. And then when he came back I was supposed to go take the job in Carlsbad. JD: 00:22:30 Okay. but you, you obviously that didn't quite work out that way, but you were promoted to Director of Brewery Operations in June of 2005. TA: 00:22:38 Yeah, that was a short stint ‘cause we were getting ready to open this place too. So yeah. JD: 00:22:43 So you already knew you were going to be moving on? TA: 00:22:46 We were having conversations at that point about how to get to here. We, I think in June it kind of was a collective. They terminated Kirk McHale, who was the brewer in Carlsbad in June of 2005 and then there was the San Clemente location, Carlsbad location, and Solana Beach. And I was asked to kind of tackle all three of them at the same time, make sure that they were more or less on the same page, collectively, kind of get them aligned. And then we also knew that we were having conversations about a new partnership and trying to build up the partnerships so that we could get this, this facility put into our orbit. Transcribed by Judith Downie 12 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:23:24 Okay. So that leads me into the founding Port Brewing in partnership with Vince and Gina. And you know, you have Port Brewing, you have Lost Abbey, you have the Hop Concept and I've also seen that you're involved in an Arizona brewery called Moto Sonora. So can you explain the structure of everything? TA: 00:23:49 Yeah. When we started talking to Stone Brewing about buying this facility from them you know, my love of Belgian beers was pretty strong and I knew that we wanted to make some things out here that were very barrel aged, Belgian influenced and all that. And we had this, Vince had the idea for the brand called the Lost Abbey. So we were very, very keen on the fact that we knew that was going to happen. There were a lot of beers at Pizza Port that were being produced that needed to kind of stretch and grow and needed to get from get out from under just being a pub-based beer. And that allowed, you know, people who had been asking for more, you know, basically Pizza Port beer. And that's where the Port Brewing came from. So the Port Brewing beers, many of them when we opened our doors here came from Solana Beach recipes that I had produced, Hop 15, Santa’s Little Helper, Shark Attack. We brought the Wipe Out recipe over from Carlsbad and those beers had a lot of legacy towards the pubs and, and kind of, you know, grew them out of that realm. But we knew that there'd be the Port brand’s very West coast centric, you know, kind of that Ballast Point, Coronado, Green Flash, Stone kind of mentality. You know, higher hopping rates, you know, sometimes imperial, things like that. We always knew that that wasn't really that wasn't going to be our principal focus in the sense that we were going to have the two brands, but we also knew that having the two brands side by side allowed us to walk in and have a wide range of beers without having everything be a Lost Abbey beer or Port Brewing beer. JD: 00:25:15 Okay. And then the Hop Concept is a fairly recent addition to the portfolio. TA: 00:25:20 So a few years ago I walked into a bar and all the beer names on the wall really just confused me. There were so many new beers and I had no idea what they tasted like. And I didn't want to be a bother to the bartenders and try to, you know, ask them this or that. And I'm not an Untappd person. I don't really use digital media to tell me what I should be drinking. So, it kinda came back to we wanted to create a line of beers that were very fresh Transcribed by Judith Downie 13 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 and simplistic in their makeup. So, the Hop Concept beers, we had a line called the Hop Freshener series and they were basically we had ‘Dank and Sticky’ and ‘Citrus and Piney and ‘Lemon and Grassy’ and ‘Tropical and Juicy’. And it was essentially taste and smell. And we, all we were trying to do was tell the consumer and the bartender, this is what you should expect the beer to taste like, or smell like. And it was a quick, straightforward deliverable and it was meant to be a, I use the word simple, but simple deliverable like you knew what you were getting. We were setting you up to understand how that beer should taste and behave. JD: 00:26:16 Yeah, it does seem like naming beers because they do have to be registered names or whatever, becomes a bigger and bigger challenge. And in just looking at a name on the board, you frequently have no idea of what that beer really is. So, something like this where you're going back to the basics, this is what you're going to get. I think must be very attractive. TA: 00:26:36 I thought the cleanliness of it for us, which was just straightforward and nomenclature and deliverable TA: 00:26:44 Like this is this is what you can expect and... JD: 00:26:47 Your label designs are very clean and very clear. Where Lost Abbey looks much more European, Medieval in a lot of ways. TA: 00:26:55 And we went out and we went out and hired a firm for the first time to really, we told them this is what our vision is and this is why we're doing it this way, but we want you to make sure we produce this with a very crisp look to it. And they, they certainly executed that and I, and I think that's always been a strength of that brand. JD: 00:27:13 Yeah. Let me ask you a little bit about the latest venture, Moto Sonora. I read that this was evidently your college roommate you are in partnerships with and his younger brother. And, of course, this is taking you back to Arizona. TA: 00:27:30 It is. Tucson, not Flagstaff. I wish it was in Flagstaff, but I'm going to come to like Tucson cause it's closer. But yeah, my, it's kind of ironic because this was a random sort of thing back when, when I was in college with Jeff. Jeff really wasn't a big beer drinker but it turns out but his brother Jeremy really fell in love with craft beer and the two of them kind of decided that Transcribed by Judith Downie 14 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 they have a high value for the city of Tucson. They loved that area. They've got deep roots in the community there. Their family, the DeConcini family's been a, been a big part of the Arizona scene and they just wanted to do this project. And I started talking to them as a consultant and just kind of saying, let me, let me hear what you're thinking. And then they said, well, maybe you could spend some more time on it. And I said, yeah, I've got the time to do that. TA: 00:28:18 Let's, let's do this. So, I am coming in as one of the co-founders on that project. Port Brewing is not involved in the sense that we're not invested in it. JD: 00:28:26 That was a question I had. TA: 00:20:28 We're not, Port Brewing is not an investor in the company. Although I have permission with my partners to supply as many ingredients and things, you know, that we can, we can work to make sure that the beers there are at the highest, you know, sort of capacity. And if it means we're buying the hops and selling them hops and things like that, that's gonna happen. You know, I see it as potentially a training ground where if one of our brewers wants the position when we get going or they, you know, we want to move people out that way. But this is not anything more than a co-founding situation where I have the freedom to go tight, you know, take on other projects. I, I kind of liken it to chefs having multiple locations or bar owners having, you know, other projects and things. But I'm not moving to Tucson and I'm not going to be the head brewer there. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to establish what we're doing and push the company in the right direction and make sure that we become a really valuable part of that community. We've been definitely looking forward to the, just being involved in it and you know, a different beer scene at the same time. JD: 00:29:24 Well, this kind of jumps over some of the questions I have because it leads into the amount of mentoring and work with newer brewers and the collaborations you do with the more established brewers. You are renowned in the industry for how people can come to you and pick your brain and you support and mentor in so many different ways. I see you as a oneperson campaign to ensure craft beer success. And, and this is in comparison with efforts like Stone's True Craft where there were more financial assistance. Have you always been a remarkable mentor? It sounds kind of like, you know, you're, you're thinking to become a teacher. Transcribed by Judith Downie 15 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:30:05 Yeah. I think that's a big part of it, right? It's a, it's a sense of, you know, that shared piece. You know, I remember very, very early in my, in my Solana Beach days, I wanted to make a Saison-style beer and I needed to find somebody who could give me the answer for how much ginger I was supposed to put in the beer. Cause I wanted to make the beer with some ginger. And there weren't many places where I could turn to. And I picked up the phone one day and I called the owner of LeftHand Brewing Company, his name was Dick Doore. And I said, Dick, you guys have this amazing Juju, ginger pale ale. I love it. Would you be willing to share that information with me? And he did. And he, you know, and we'd barely met. And it was one of those things that, okay, yeah, that's how the industry works. Right. And you know, this is something that I think Troy had put in my head back in the day was like, there are the right people to be talking to and then there's the wrong people. And the wrong people are the ones that don't freely exchange the information, or they don't, they don't try to push it uphill. And for the longest time we had so much work to do in this town to push the level uphill that we collectively had to talk about it. I mean, everybody I think that you would interview would have the similar sense of if we didn't all work together then we wouldn't have gotten to where we were. JD: 00:31:18 Isn't that the principle behind the San Diego Brewers Guild? TA: 00:31:21 Of course, you know, the very first Guild meeting was out at La Cruda. So yeah. Yes, for sure that the Guild, you know, I think we were the very first city in the country to have its own brewers guild. TA: 00:31:31 And that, that's kind of a, you know, a feather in the cap for what I think, you know, the old, the old guard or the people that really did, you know, hunker down back in the day was that there was a true sense that there was going to be something really good about the scene here. But we had to work really hard at it. So, I've always liked that conversational aspect of it. I believe that I can, I can ask the right questions with friends and people and, and if I can turn around and get that information back out, it makes sense. So yeah, why not? I mean, there's, there's very little, I guess I don't feel very competitive or threatened by it by that, you know, that dialogue or that sharing of information. Transcribed by Judith Downie 16 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:32:05 I think that's, I mean, I, I'm on certain, like the San Diego Plexus Facebook group and stuff, and your name comes up and everybody says, Tomme Arthur, he's the person to talk to. He is the god locally, you know, I mean, your name is always used in very positive way, which I think really speaks to the efforts that you have put into the community and supporting, especially newer brewers, but also working with other established brewers and not treating it as competition but treating it as we can all be better. TA: 00:32:34 And I think the one thing that's kind of maddening these days, and this is, this is my personal soap box] is that there's a lot of TA: 00:32:39 People that are collaborating on things. And I'm, I'm very concerned about this new sense of collaborating because I don't know that it's doing much other than it's bringing people together. And then you say, well what did we change and what did we do? And I'm like, okay. But I think the collaborative narrative of old was we collaborated on something because it was going to be something demonstratively different than we could have done singularly. And I'm not sure that much of that's going on today. So, when we collaborate with an old guard or with someone new, we're, we're really trying to have a sense of purpose. And I hope that people continue to realize that just collaborating with someone for the sake of sales isn't always, I guess from where I come, from isn't always the best course of action. JD: 00:33:25 Again, going to your mentoring, have you had the opportunity to open doors for specific groups? And I'm thinking women or minorities or people with disabilities, people, you know, because the standard concept of a brewer is a male, white guy, you know, I mean that just still is. It's not that way anymore. But have you had opportunities to work with or speak to groups to encourage them? TA: 00:33:51 I was thinking about this the other day because you know, I look at our staff, it is generally mostly male. We have had a few female employees on the beer side in the past and they've been phenomenal employees. And I was thinking the other day that we haven't done enough in our world to cultivate that specifically. And I know the Brewers Association is pretty keen on promoting diversity and things these days. And I'm wondering as an educational mentor, et cetera, where I should be looking to do some of those things or how I get involved in that. You know, where, where can I be impactful in that, in that space. And I don't know if it's through the university or through, 17 2024-01-04 Transcribed by Judith Downie �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 you know, there's a big Latino population up here in San Marcos and Vista. But clearly, you know, being white and being white isn't always the best thing. With respect to trying to, you know, we've got to find new, new people to energize and really enthuse about what we do. And preaching to the 40-year-old male white choir isn't, isn't the best place to live in. JD: 00:34:47 Well, I don't know if you're aware of Border X <Brewing>, which is of course down in Barrio Logan has, is sponsoring a women's beer club called Mujeres Brew Club. I'm sorry, I, my Spanish isn't that swell. And they invited me to be their first speaker and they're doing a meeting each month on a different aspect and at the end they are going to brew a beer at Border X. And the women that are in there, many of them don't know even beer styles. I mean, one woman evidently asked the question, what's an IPA? And so, you know, and it's, it's a safe space for women and it does have a large number of Latina women, which I think is phenomenal because maybe some of these will become brewers and there are women are working in the beer industry in San Diego who are also members. JD: 00:35:40 Some of them are speakers and some are just attending the meetings because they're always eager to learn more. So maybe reaching out to, or you know, helping sponsor a group like that or Pink Boots Society5 of course, you know, is always looking for speakers and educational opportunities and things. But you know, there's a growing presence, but it is hard to, when women are so scattered or you know, like you say it's underrepresented with the minorities or you know, and there are certain positions that probably someone with a physical disability couldn't perform in a brewhouse, what could they do? Can they be the quality control people, things like that. So, it seems like there are places that we need to increase. TA: 00:36:24 Yeah. It's interesting because I was thinking about this again the other day. I was like, we just don't have that many women apply for jobs. It's, it's you know, I, you know, I have a, a fairly good amount of men working, you know males, working on the floor. But I can't remember the last time I saw an application come in for a brewing position from a woman. So somehow the outreach needs to get further than, you know, I'm talking entrylevel packaging jobs, things like that. There's, there's clearly, you know, there's, it's not a bias in our world. They're just not International organization for women and non-binary people in the fermentation industry. The first chapter was founded in San Diego. 5 Transcribed by Judith Downie 18 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 coming and knocking down our door. So somehow we have to convince them that this isn't, this is a pretty good place where they could, you know, they can, they can find careers and homes. JD: 00:37:04 Well, if you do want to advertise positions, I have a couple of resources. I can push things out to Pink Boots San Diego for one. And then there's another Facebook page of women interested in beer. Some are working in the industry; some are maybe looking to get into the industry. And of course, maybe pushing the word out to the EngiBeering® program at Cal State San Marcos. ‘Cause there are, there's at least a couple of women enrolled in that program. But yeah, it's hard because there aren't many women available to bring in. But then, you know, we do have a, you know, a fairly strong Hispanic population in this area. So, you know, why can't we leverage that? And it's finding those points of contact. That's a, that's a continual problem that I have seen. Also, to kind of jump back, I mentioned Stone's True Craft effort, which, you know, obviously died. It was a great idea to help small, small breweries with financing to where they didn't have to sell themselves to big beer. What did you think of that idea when you thought, heard of it? TA: 00:38:01 You know, I had a lot of friends that took meetings with them. I mean, at least on the surface I was told, you know, Hey, we've, we've gone and talked to them about it. I think the biggest challenge was, is that that was at a time when there was a lot of unrealistic expectations about valuations and what, what things were worth or how, how long term, you know, how companies would be out, people would work long term together. You know, it's an interesting model because this business is such a, almost a loner thing. Like most people open their own little brewery and then at some point you need more investment in that comes with a lot more triggers and kinds of parameters and stuff in some small breweries never outgrow the small, you know, model. They, I'm the single proprietor, not me. They are a single proprietor, ownership kind of environment and you know, they borrow money from the bank and that's what they get and that's what they want to be. You know, there's a very passionate pursuit for them. And then there's the big business side of it, which says if you're going to scale and grow and you know, buying equipment is not cheap and putting concrete in the ground and copper piping and just every single thing you could think of. Transcribed by Judith Downie 19 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:39:07 And the length time it takes to just deal with all the permitting within the city, within the state, with the ABC6. TA: 00:39:11 And the regulatory. Yeah. All of those pieces. So I applaud Greg for, and Steve, for putting the platform together. You know, the, I think the biggest hurdle for a lot of people is just how, how do you entrepreneurially sign up for something like that? Right? It's, it's, you know, it's a different, it's a different <unclear> in you. You're talking about an environment where you went from being in charge of your own facility to now having new investment that comes with different, again, different triggers and things. I think it's interesting cause nobody signed up to do it and I don't know if that was that the metrics didn't align or how that was. But I know a lot of people took meetings and so I guess the question is, is what, what was, what was unrealistic on both sides for, for that, how come it, how come they didn't get anybody to, to partner with? JD: 00:40:01 Yeah. I'm, I don't know who took meetings, but it would be interesting to talk to them to ask them why they didn't pursue that, and did they find an alternative that worked better for them. So that's on my list of things to do. Since we've mentioned big beer, have you ever been approached by big beer with an offer to purchase you or to work with them in some sort of way? TA: 00:40:25 No. In the 13 years that we've been open no one has put an offer sheet on the table and said, we want to buy you for XYZ dollars or otherwise. We have met with some family offices, venture people, people, you know, my thing is we'll take any meeting just to say hi. Mostly to learn about what people are looking for, what they're doing. But pretty emphatically we've never actually been offered, no one's ever actually offered to purchase us in, in a minority capacity and majority otherwise. So no. JD: 00:41:02 Good. I won't ask you what your response would be, but do you think that maybe partly it's because, I don't want to say you do extreme beers, but you do less run-of-the-mill beers in many cases that might just be something that big beer would not find attractive. TA: 00:41:23 If we live in a fringe world, we're, you know, we're sort of known as a super-premium producer and we have a lot of 6 California’s Alcoholic Beverage Control agency in charge of licensing alcohol production, distribution and sales. Transcribed by Judith Downie 20 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 niches that we feel from barrels and sour. You know, they've, big breweries have a need in sometimes to do that, but they, they, I think they've found those elsewhere and they want scale and they want all kinds of things. You know, San Diego is an interesting model, right. We had Ballast Point sold, you know, Green Flash had sold and we've had a lot of big, bigger companies come through and, and, and have taken investments. And so TA: 00:41:57 I don't know if there was any real need beyond, I think big beer came and found what they needed from San Diego. I'd be surprised if, if there's any big beer-ness left in San Diego. I mean, I say that, and you know, we'll see. But you know, I, I don't, I don't really feel like TA: 00:42:13 That the big beer is kind of be knocking down the doors in San Diego anytime soon. JD: 00:42:16 They got their toe in. TA: 00:42:18 Potentially because of the desaturation and just some of the difficulties that they might experience. ah, it's a, it's a whole, it's a whole run of things and it really has to do with, you know, where can they, where can they scale and where can they find their return on their investment and things like that. JD: 00:42:32 Yeah, no, that's what they're looking at is a bottom line. TA: 00:42:35 It is 100% about how much can they make on what they're buying it. Yeah. JD: 00:42:41 Because your beers are not run of the mill Coors-type beers, not to bash Coors, but just, you know, as an example, where did you get your early inspirations? I mean, you, you said you like the Belgians and you were exposed to a wide variety of European and, and what craft beer was made in the US. But things like oak aging and sour beers, were those things that you were exposed to early on or were those things that you found out later while you were experimenting? TA: 00:43:10 Yeah, it was early. I remember, I remember my first Chimay Red. I remember my first Guinness and I vividly remember the very first Rodenbach I ever had. And I, you know, the Rodenbach I think hit me more than anything else in that really portend, you know, that really does explain why, you know, like, Oh my God, that's okay. I know there's weird beer out there, Transcribed by Judith Downie 21 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 but this is way to the left, right? This thing is way, way downstream from anything I'd had at that point. You know, I was, when on the four years I was in college, I was sampling a lot of beers and then I continued to continue to buy beer. And, and it's just when you get one that's put in front of you and you say, wow, how did they do that? And that was kind of the, the aha that was the light bulb, I think was, was that first Rodenbach. That somebody who's living in a world where that, that's so to the extreme and delicious. But why can't, why can't I, why can't I think about beer like that? And that's, that definitely pushed me in that direction. JD: 00:44:06 Well that's great to have such an open mind. Do you remember who, if anyone else was doing things like barrel aging and sour beers or anything when you started doing it? TA: 00:44:17 Vinnie7 <Cilurzo> and I joke about this a lot cause Vinnie at Russian River and I are pretty good friends and a lot of it comes back to when we first picked up oak barrels and really got into that, you know, late 19, late 1990s, you know, the first batch of cuvée that we were making and they were making beer called Temptation. There was very little of that going on and I knew Belgian had <inaudible. in the market. But out West there weren't a lot of people making sour beer in barrels. And so we had to just kinda kick the can on how to do it. Talk collectively. Again, it got back to, we were not we did not, you know, you know, withhold the secrets. And we talked a lot about the what ifs and things and that I think was a big, big part of the success was just, okay, how are we going to do this in this environment? Because again, you couldn't open a book and read how to do it. Today you can open plenty of books. JD: 00:45:06 Or just find it out there on the web. TA: 00:45:10 I mean, you pick up the phone and call someone, but then back then it isn't, you know, how do you manage your barrel program or what do you, how do you do this? It was, well, I'm going to try, I'm going to try this. Okay. That sounds like that. That seems reasonable to me. Vinnie Cilurzo founded Blind Pig Brewing in Temecula, CA before moving to Northern California to found Russian River Brewing. 7 Transcribed by Judith Downie 22 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:45:22 Oh, so you can't think of anybody specifically locally though? You, I mean, Vinnie, to me, is still local as they were nearby, TA: 00:45:30 For sure, it’s California. JD: 00:45:32 but I'm thinking in San Diego. TA: 00:45:34 You know, I don't know if we, I always say we, being Pizza Port. I don't know if we were the first ones to make intentionally sour beer in San Diego. I don't recall running into it anywhere at that point. But for the sake of clarity, I never say we were the first ones because I truly don't know. There was some oak aging going on the guys at Rock Bottom <Restaurant and Brewery> in La Jolla specifically ‘cause I got barrels from them. AleSmith <Brewing Company>I think was right about that same time, ‘97, ’98-ish where they were getting into having some bourbon barrel kind of things going on. JD: 00:46:06 But that was Skip <Virgilio>8. TA: 00:46:07 Skip doing that. There was not a lot of sour beer in California at that point. So, or even San Diego can that I can recall. JD: 00:46:17 I’m glad sour beer’s around. Okay. You just mentioned cuvée. And I've seen it said that that is your favorite beer. TA: 00:46:26 Perhaps. JD: 00:46:27 Yeah. Perhaps. TA: 00:46:28 It’s the only one that bears my name 9. How's that? JD: 00:46:30 That's true. That's true. On the other hand, is there a beer that you ever made that you didn't care for, but everybody else said, no, we've got to put this on tap. TA: 00:46:43 Ooh, that's a damn good question. JD: 00:46:45 Did they, did it actually sell well? TA: 00:46:48 There is a running joke here at the brewery. We made a beer a few years ago called Spontaneous Cheer. And the Spontaneous 8 9 Skip Virgilio founded AleSmith Brewing and later sold to Peter and Vicky Zien. Cuvée du Tomme. Transcribed by Judith Downie 23 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 Cheer was a peach sour and it was actually spontaneously fermented. So we, we've got some spontaneous fermentation barrels and things that we do from time to time and we have a large library of barrels. We have over a thousand oak barrels full of now and we made this batch of beer and it tasted pretty darn good. That being said, I struggled with it personally because it didn't really manifest our house culture. We have a very strong sour beer sense. Like there's a terroir in our world. You can taste the Lost Abbey beer and it's white grapey and it's stone peach fruit. And you can tell that there's something about the way that we blend in and package. And that beer had none of it, even though it was a peach beer. But that's because all of the cultures came from the spontaneous portion. And so, people were like, you have to release this beer. And I can't in good conscience release it because you could open it in a tasting room in Texas and you'd have no idea it came from us and what's the point of that? So that's probably the one in this environment that had garnered a lot of energy I would say, okay, that's not what I was, didn't hate the beer, just wasn't keen on it. Bearing the name Lost Abbey being sour and didn't, didn't exude us. JD: 00:48:15 And so you have not brewed it again since. TA: 00:48:18 No, we haven’t. Even though we likely could, and people would freak for it, but it doesn't, again, it gets really to the point of, you know, we're really trying to have that identity in a big sea of imitations. I would think that that was probably a one-anddone. I'd be surprised if it came back. JD: 00:48:35 Okay, if I ever see an unopened bottle of it, I'll know that that's truly special. TA: 00:48:39 So we never bottled it. That's the only bottle that I think, I mean it was, it was literally only one oak barrel, so 50 gallons. But I think we only bottled it. I had a friend who had a baby and there was a request, but I, there shouldn't, there shouldn't be any bottles of that out in the world. There are, they probably aren't real. JD: 00:48:55 Yeah. Well, we'll know that they are shams. What was your very first award for brewing? TA: 00:49:04 That's a good question. JD: Transcribed by Judith Downie 00:49:08 You've had so many. 24 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:49:09 I know like, let's see. We had strong ale in 19... Well, okay. The very first award that I know for certain was the gold medal that I participated in at La Cruda. We won a gold medal10 for the Makanudo Porter, but that was not my beer and I was not the recipe generator. So I would say probably a beer that we brewed at Pizza Port and that was part of the Strong Ale Festival in ‘97 or ‘98. And then at that point we started entering the Real Ale Festival in Chicago or some California State Fair stuff. We did not win a GABF11 award until 1999, 2000. JD: 00:49:44 Shame on them. TA: 00:49:46 It took me a little while to figure out where our beers sort of fit in the competitive landscape, JD: 00:49:52 The pantheon of beers. TA: 00:49:53 So once I figured that part out, we got on a roll pretty, quickly. JD: 00:49:57 That does seem to be a little bit of a challenge cause I'm a member of the Society of Barley Engineers when they talk about submitting for homebrew <competitions>. Sometimes there are quite intense discussions about where a particular beer, that somebody’s having everybody sample, what category that fits into. And you do then deal with judges’ taste buds. Which, you know, it's a constantly moving landscape. TA: 00:50:17 I’ve been a GABF judge since ‘99-ish. And that has afforded me an enormous amount of opportunities to watch the process, participate in it, and even potentially piss off brewers and people who maybe didn't, you know, like the way that it went. It's fascinating to watch the competition evolve at a table relative to the dialogue, the strength of the judges, the opinions of the judges. Even just the sheer age of the, the judging has come from, there were only this block of people that used to do it and now it's expanded and now the categories have morphed and they're different. And the, you know, we talk about it a lot because it's, it's interesting to see how difficult, first of all, there's so many more beers, but the sheer, the sheer perspective that people are operating under relative to, I've had these style beers or I've never been think about, okay, I'm 10 11 Awarded at the Great American Beer Festival. Great American Beer Festival. Transcribed by Judith Downie 25 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 supposed to judge a Kölsch-style beer, but I'm a judge and I've never been to Cologne and had the six beers from there that are the, that are the standards. Well, how do you judge that? Like that's, that's a, it's an interesting scenario because you're being asked to read this against what was written, how this is how a standard should taste. Yet. You've never been in situ and had that environmental condition. JD: 00:51:41 Right, with that terroir and all everything else, all those factors that work into it. TA: 00:51:45 100 percent. I do agree with you that there's, one of the things about entering competitively is that there's so many different places beers can fit and sometimes it's really environmentally like time and place. Sometimes the beer exudes more oak and sometimes it doesn’t, and it wants to be in an oak category, but it can't cause it has brett12. We did a sampling a couple months ago back in early July and I think we went through 20 different beers for GABF trying to get down to the five that we wanted to send. And in order to do that we had to kind of pick the beers. We'd, you know, we brought out all the beers that we thought were really well done and then we had to go say, well that would fit here, wouldn't fit here, but it probably fits best here, but we don't want to send that beer there because we already have another one that wants to go there. So, you don't wanna compete against yourself either? JD: 00:52:35 Now are you limited to five beers for competition? TA: 00:52:39 Of late? They've been in the four to five range. Okay. A few years ago, you could send up to eight and prior to that it was kind of unlimited. But when it went from eight to five it got a lot harder. JD: 00:52:48 Yeah. But it just seems like, I mean you can see what thousands of entries that seems like and yeah, TA: 00:52:56 I think there's over 8,000 beers that'll be judged. But we always say this, it's like if, if back when we were going to sending eight beers, I don't know if we make eight world-class beers every fall. Right? So how many are really well done and how many of them are like, you know, that far up the channel. I think we 12 Industry jargon for Brettanomyces, a fungi used to sour beer. Transcribed by Judith Downie 26 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 make eight great beers but are they going to sit at the table and really, really compete. But I think when you have eight versus four, your odds are better. But perhaps being in categories that some, some years are strong, and some years are weak, is, is where it kind of comes from. JD: 00:53:29 Yeah. But you're also trying to be selective. I'm sure there are people that “I'll send as many beers as I can to increase my odds of winning an award.” Because of course the GABF awards still mean a lot. TA: 00:53:41 Yeah. There was a year, I know this to be true, where at least one or two breweries that don't need to be, and they're not from San Diego, sent somewhere between 30 to 50 beers. And didn't win an award. And these are pretty good breweries. So, you know, you're talking about the shotgun approach. You hit the side of the barn. But it was pretty interesting to see that they didn't win. You know, the years of late where we haven't, we haven't managed to win an award. You know, we look up and we talked to the guys and we say, you know, look at the breweries that didn't win. Like, you know, these are, these are still some, you know, solid, solid producers and congratulations to the ones that did. But yeah, there's no guarantee anymore. I mean, winning one is a pretty dang good achievement. JD: 00:54:24 Yeah. Well then in some cases, like just recently, what happens to the beer while is being transported? It could completely knock a perfectly good beer that left here out of any consideration because what happens to it or it doesn't even get there. TA: 00:54:39 Yeah. So we've tried to mitigate that as best we can. Where the consolidation point and we have been for a long time that helps with refrigeration and, you know, just really making sure that the beer is better taken care of, competitive, you know, competitive judging or, you know, competitive brewing. I would say this is far different than it was 10, 15 years ago. JD: 00:55:00 I guess for good and for bad both. But back to your awards, is there any award that you have one that is the most meaningful to you? Not to discount the other awards. TA: 00:55:12 Sure, I think two really come to mind. The, we've been lucky to win a <GABF> Brewery of the Year award four different times. And I'm, I'm personally, I really want to get to five. I want to have that. I want to have that, that last one on the, you know, in Transcribed by Judith Downie 27 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 that, you know, if I, if they gave out rings, I want to have the handful. The last time we won was 2007, so it's been a long time. And we may never get that opportunity again. I think the one that I won last year, which was the Russell Schehrer Award for Innovation and Craft Brewing, that that's you know, that's a hall of fame landscape kind of thing. And it just speaks to the community involvement and the, you know, being, being a participant in this, you know, only 22 people have won it at that point. And I, I, yeah, the legacy award, you know, something like that. I mean, I, I still love, I love the GABF and World Beer <Cup> Awards, a couple of awards cause they're, you know, they're purely blind. They're your peers. They show your team that they're, you know, they're making the right decisions. But the Russell award was probably the one that was singular in the sense that that was, you know, personally with my name on it. Where it's almost every other award that we've had that we've been lucky enough to garner comes with somebody else, you know, participating in doing work in that regard. JD: 00:56:29 Yeah. Okay. Well, very good. So, we're just about at the end of all my questions, from your experience, is there anything in the way of advice or a lesson you've learned or anything else that you think either can't be said enough or you haven't ever had the opportunity to say? TA: 00:56: You know, I think that we were talking yesterday, it's kind of interesting. We were talking about how difficult this business has become and there's a lot of noise and chatter and 50 years from now when someone's looking at this, they'll say, wow it's not as easy as it used to be. And I don't know where the fall line's going to be. We're going to get to 10,000 breweries in this country. I don't doubt that that'll happen. And I don't know where, where the relevancy will be. I don't know what it will look like. I feel pretty strongly that in the time that I've been lucky enough to be in this business, a lot of what's made us successful has come from a very strong sense of this is the beer I want to produce. And nowadays there seems to be a lot of, you have to just do what the consumer is saying they want. TA: 00:57:38 And tons of breweries I think are kind of losing their way, respectful of an identity. And I don't know if the artist in me can, can sort of reconcile that for the long haul. I think there's this sense that if, if that's the way the industry is going, you know, is that what I signed up for? Part of me wants to see the Transcribed by Judith Downie 28 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 consumerism shift and I, I talk about this a lot, but it's kind of like when you throw the boomerang out, it comes back a little slower than it went out and maybe the boomerang is coming back. You know, that there's just too much ubiquity right now. But maybe not. Maybe with 10,000 brewers, you just, there is ubiquity and that's just part of the nature of it. But you know, I think the success that I've had, you know, in this business has been built on beers that, that, that have something that look and tastes like things that I've, you know, imagined and there's been a lot of success for that. But I don't know how you continue to do that when there's 10,000 imitators and people trying to, trying to find the same sort of, you know, sense of their worth. So for me, I think the biggest thing moving forward is just where, where do we all fit in? It's just dense stuff. JD: 00:58:49 Giving everybody a chance to attain their dream. But yeah, you know. TA: 00:58:53 Yeah. I think that we're going to see, I think in the next two years we're going to see a lot of dreams getting crushed because it's getting, it's getting even harder today than it was probably a year ago. But there might be a light at the end of the tunnel in the sense that, you know, there's been a lot of distributor consolidation. There's been a lot of breweries, what they say, you know, rightsizing or trying to figure this all out. But it's a business. It's gonna eat people alive, you know? And, and that's what businesses do, right? There's, there is this, there's, there's a success rate attributed to craft beer that's not as high. I mean, it's higher than most consumer goods, and there will probably be a little bit more reckoning that will come along with it because you just can't, you just can't all swim in the same ocean. It just doesn't work. And so we're going to find some sense of corrective correlations. I mean, we're going to find smaller, you know, people are going to be making less beer for the next few years and if you're actively making more beer, you're one of the very few people that's, that's winning in that, in that space. JD: 00:59:51 It does seem like we had a real bump up in numbers of breweries that opened in 2016-2017 which is being that this is 2019. We're looking at entering the fourth and fifth year of leases for a lot of the breweries. And I think that might be a time where people are going to have to sit down and assess. TA: 01:00:11 Sure. I mean, if you've got a five-year lease and you're about to come into that fourth year, you're in the fourth year and you're now triggering the, am I going to renew? Right. I haven't, I 29 2024-01-04 Transcribed by Judith Downie �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 haven't been taking a paycheck or I've been taking very little. And then at some point you're like, are we, is this a real thing? You know, I don't, I don't know. You know, people, people certainly I think come into it, you know, really, you know, eager and excited about it. And then little by little you're, you're grinding and there's a lot of grinding going on right now, which is okay, but you know, there's, but grinding isn't fun. JD: 01:00:46 No. And when people come into it with a passion, which is a term you used earlier, passion cannot sustain you forever, unfortunately. I mean, it's what maybe gets you up the next morning, but at some point it's not paying the bills and you have managed to raise a family, you know, other people, you know, that they've got investors that may or may not understand the actual brewing industry and cause and effect and impacts. And, you know, yeah, it's going to be real interesting to see what happens. TA: 01:01:18 Yeah. I've been pretty lucky. My partnership here hasn't had an unrealistic expectation of financial return. And, and you know, so, you know, we, we opened our doors, we borrowed some money, we repaid the money, and then we've basically reinvested all of that money into the company when we needed to. So we are not sitting here saying okay, you're, you know, you were relying on us for a dividend. And you know, that doesn't, it doesn't work like that. But the, the business of beer is very difficult. And you know, you, you talked about that word passion. We, when we opened our doors, I published this list of the 10 commandments of our brewery and one of the 10 commandments was that you, you know, passion isn't something you can buy at the corner store. And I meant that with a sense of like, if you come into this, you know, you can't just throw that term around. TA: 01:02:06 Like you've got to live it and breathe it. And I think that that kind of what you were speaking to earlier is, is, has always been like, I think there's a lot of people that will say, I am very passionate about what I do. And I have been, and that's, you know, over the 20 plus years I've been doing this. That's that, that is a word that I would associate with, with getting out of bed every day. And it's been very, it's been very conducive to being successful. That being said, you don't have to be overly passionate, but you have to be, you still have to be passionate about getting out of bed every day, even when you're struggling, even when you're not killing it. And I can guarantee you right now, there's a lot of people when they're getting out of bed who used to kill it and were, you know, who thought Transcribed by Judith Downie 30 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 they were going to kill it and are saying to themselves, man, this is, this is real. Like, and you know, how do you, how do you put your game face on and, and, and really keep, keep grinding and to tackle the, you know, look, we want to get to the other side. JD: 01:02:54 Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to be a long face when your consumers come in because they're going to say, Hey, I came in here for a beer and a good time. TA: 01:03:02 I am here. I am here for a good time. Right. Any happy people? JD: 01:03:06 Oh dear. Oh dear. Something that just came to me, which is not on the list of questions, but we are sitting in the space that Stone originated at. And you had just mentioned that you've expanded. Talk a little bit about the physical plant. What was it like when you moved in as Lost Abbey? What did you have to do to it and how many times have you expanded? TA: 01:03:34 All right. So, when we took over in January of 2006 and Stone moved out to the facility in Escondido, they controlled at that point about 30,000 square feet of I think the building is 85,000 square feet. So, they had about a third of it. And when they moved out, we collapsed the entire building back down to their original suite, suite 104, and that suite is 7,500 square feet. So, we started with a 30-barrel brewhouse in 19, I'm sorry, in 2006. And we had 30, 7,500 square feet, including the tasting room, cold box, and our barrel warehouse. In 2009, I believe we moved across the parking lot and took over another 10,000 square feet and moved the cold box, all the barrels and our distribution. So, for awhile we had that space. We were up to about 17,000 square feet. 2012 or so we took over this suite that we're sitting in here, which was another 7,500 square feet. TA: 01:04:35 So that allowed us to build our packaging hall, this office, the lab, things like that. We rolled for the next few years, for the next five years. We had that 27,000 square feet of space. And then we added we added a second, third, fourth warehouse across the parking lot. And that took us to almost 40,000 square feet. And then last January we moved out of that distribution warehouse into another building here, which is now connected from the front of the street to the back. Behind us. We control 40,000 square feet under one roof line for the first time. And we moved out of the facility across the parking lot, all of our barrels and everything. So we now are under one building, one roof line. We can't drive from the packaging hall to the rest of the building. But every other building we can drive forklifts through. Transcribed by Judith Downie 31 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 01:05:30 And that never happened. Two years ago, we owned four <forklifts> ‘cause we had four different buildings. JD: 1:05:37 Now does Port distribute all the beers here in San Marcos? TA: 1:05:43 Everything comes out of this facility. We are doing a batch or two a year out of the Pizza Port facility when we need to, but we don't, it's this, this facility can handle a lot more beer than we're currently making. So most, most everything that has the word Port Brewing, Lost Abbey, or Hop Concept on it has come out of San Marcos. It's only been this year that we've brewed two or three batches of beer down the street at Pizza Port. And most of that was for efficiency to do big runs of things that we could, we did a giant Hop Freshener, Hop Concept release at Costco and needed to have beer all at the same time. JD: 01:06:15 So are you, in Costcos outside of California as well? TA: 01:06:20 No, and that has been something we haven't really tackled or looked at. JD: 01:06:23 Like it would be just an overwhelming amount of production yet I think... TA: 01:06:28 Costco's pretty, pretty keen on a lot of local these days, at least for beer. So, I don't know how relevant we would, you know, we might be able to get into some in Arizona, maybe in Washington and Northern California, but you know, there's a ton of breweries in each of those locations. Tapping the same buyer on the shoulder saying, can I get, can I get in here? And, and the buyers probably got enough options that they don't even need something from out of here. And frankly, the cost associated with getting it to them would almost make it prohibitive in terms of trying to put it on the shelf at their right price point. JD: 01:06:59 Yeah. Have you ever had to turn down any kind of requests because you just knew that trying to fill that big an order was going to just break you? TA: 01:07:09 No, we've, we've been pretty lucky in the sense that when we do get we just came off of couple of pretty good-sized Costco orders and they were about 40 pallets worth of beer. But the brewery can handle that without being too burdened in the sense. I mean, it's certainly a lot of attention on one thing but we're not overly stretched at our capacity right now. So, when those things pop up, we certainly snap at them and want, you Transcribed by Judith Downie 32 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 know we wanna make sure we execute on it. If we were making a lot more beer, we probably would have, we would struggle with that a little more. But when you get an order for 40 pallets of beer, you figure it out, you know, you really do. JD: 01:07:49 When we walked back here, we passed one of your employees building a bike. What other sorts of things do you do with the employees or for the employees to support maybe their selfeducation, other interests that they have, things like that. TA: 01:08:05 We've definitely put it on our radar this year. We've lost a lot of employees in the last two years. I think we've turned over 20 employees and we only have about 50 total. So, we've put an emphasis on that level of communication, you know, what can we do to assist you in this endeavor? It's not something that we've programmed in the past or been terribly good at. That being said, we haven't, we have really seen that there are some simple opportunities to do things like that and Tim's running his own small bike shop and it's just a, you know, it's a pocket, pocketed space here at the brewery. You know, we've announced that if there's other brewer or other brewery employees from the tasting room all the way up that have an idea, we would love to hear about it. We don't make a dime on it. There's no, there's no real emphasis towards, you know, trying to co-partner on things. TA: 01:08:56 It's just we, we want to, we want to foster the opportunities if it makes sense. And Tim's the pilot sort of program right now with the bike, the little bike shop that he's running and it gets interesting, I hope. I hope it sparks other employees to say, okay, cool, I've wanted to do this, that or the other and it looks like I could and come to us and say, ‘Oh, could you carve out this space again?’ We are, we are under more, more efficient space right now and we do have a little bit of room. So, I hope that, I hope somebody else says, okay, I want to do this and it, and it fits the needs and the use and isn't a big deal. It'd be great because it means that we can, we can continue to lift what they want to be a part of and retain them at some time. JD: 01:09:35 Yeah. Very good. It was fun. Oh, okay. Well, I think that pretty much has run through my list plus of questions for you about your career, your history, and what's going on with Lost Abbey/Port Brewing. And I want to thank you for that. And I'm going to go ahead and turn this off. Transcribed by Judith Downie 33 2024-01-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arthur, Tomme. Interview transcript. August 8th, 2019. Description An account of the resource Tomme Arthur has been involved in several San Diego breweries, most notably as founder and managing owner of Lost Abbey Brewing located in San Marcos, CA. His first professional brewing position was at the short-lived Cervecería La Cruda in San Diego, California. Arthur moved to Pizza Port Brewing in Solana Beach, California as an assistant brewer. After becoming Director of Brewing Operations for the increasing number of locations, he led the chain in garnering numerous beer awards. Arthur opened Lost Abbey Brewing in 2006 to focus on his interest in Belgian-style beers. In late 2023, Arthur separated Lost Abbey from Port Brewing operations in a ‘right-sizing’ plan in response to beer industry trends. Port Brewing retained the Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles, and Kharisma brands in their portfolio and took over the San Marcos production space and closed the tasting room. Lost Abbey entered an alternating proprietorship agreement with Mother Earth Brewing to share their production space in nearby Vista, CA. In his 2019 interview, Arthur discusses his introduction to craft beer and home brewing; entry into the profession and work at various breweries beginning in the 1990s; founding Lost Abbey Brewing and other brewery ventures; mentoring individuals in the industry; and awards. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tomme Arthur Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Ernest Cisneros Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08-08 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Lost Abbey Brewing (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08_transcript Brewchive(r) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/359f5ef004ef9f5cb67d3fe184e762f6.pdf 7724afdb765683fbb93150f5ec6d7e48 PDF Text Text GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Gezai Berhane. This is for the California State University San Marcos, Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. Today is March 29th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Gezai, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'll start off with a- with some questions. To start off, could you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to become a part of the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) community? Gezai Berhane: Well, that's a good question, and thanks for this opportunity. My background is, uh, I was born and raised in Eritrea, East Africa. I came to the United States as a refugee in 1983, so I've been here for a long time. But, um, back home when I was back home in Africa, in East Africa, I did not have an opportunity to finish high school. So, my goal, my aspiration was to at least finish high school. So, once I got the opportunity to go to school here, I tried to finish high school, but I was adult, so they say, “You can't even be here in the high school.” So, they kicked me out, but they told me, I can finish high school, uh, through something called the GED (General Educational Development Test)? Something like that. And so, I did that. And then, um, I moved to San Marcos in (19)85, where California was cheaper than where I initially landed in the United States, which was South Dakota. A big difference. And so, I took advantage of the opportunity at-- enrolling at Palomar College. Uh, I did two years at Palomar College. Then I got interested more and more in school. By the time I finished Palomar College, Cal State San Marcos was coming. It was a great opportunity and I couldn't resist that. I had plans to go beyond the, two-years degree because I missed four years of high school. So at least four years of high school, equivalent to me was continuously going to a four-year college. And so San Marcos came in, so I became one of the first Cal State San Marcos students in 1990. That brought a lot of opportunity actually for me as a new university, uh, starting from scratch. For me not having any other experience coming from another country and not knowing a whole lot about college, I was involving myself at Cal State San Marcos because every time they need somebody, volunteer, student assistance, do this and that. I was just trying to be as involved as I can, just, and as a result of that, after graduating 1992, among the first 1992 graduates, I was, then I got hired to, as a student, I was involved with student organizations, with Associated Students (Incorporated, i.e. student governance) and staff. So, my involvement led to a permanent position here on campus. And that first job and things like that was in the Dean of Students Office. And then by 1993, in the beginning, we were assigned a department to start a new department called Student Activities and Alumni Services. That is the root cause of the Student Life and Leadership, the Student and Residential Life (campus departments). I've been part of that since, again, I can say even though as a student, I started in 1990, I was also an employee or student assistant with the campus. So I have seen the growth of the campus from day one as a result of that --Cross-Cultural Center, I know we'll get back to it, but that is as a result of growing departments and services to a growing population. So that's what (it) looks like a little bit on my background about who I am, as it relates to Cal State San Marcos. Stanley: And you were saying you were part of the first graduate, one of the first graduating classes of CSUSM. Could you maybe describe what the university was like in its early days? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Well, I don't know if you, if you wanna call it the university. We were taking all our classes at the, well, we used to, still refer to it, Cal State Jerome's. It was office buildings by, near the Jerome’s (furniture store) building. But luckily, SDSU (San Diego State University) had an extended classes in those areas. So, Cal Sate San Marcos didn't start it from the beginning. So there was some kind of structure as far as classrooms and things like that at Cal State Jerome's. So, all of my two years’ classes were taken there. But we graduated from the, uh, Craven Circle. We had our first graduation right there. We used the stairs, um, as a, as chairs for the guests, but we had chairs for the graduates, I was one of those. It was (a) very tight-knit community. We knew each other, the students knew each other. The faculty, staff, administrators knew each other by name, by everything, and all kinds of activities, including playing soccer with some faculty members at the Bradley Park. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Like, you know, if you were with the Dean of students, uh, you just called them by name. you as President Stacy, you were President Stacy, he’s Bill Stacy's office. Right. Because everything was just community. We knew each other. It was a community. The faculty, on the other hand, had a task to make sure that they're building a compatible, very, viable university as a new university. So there was some challenge- they tried to challenge us, the students, but we were all re-entry, returners, transfers, no freshmen at the time. So, we met the challenge and exceeded the challenge. Within one year, we started Associated Students (student governance). Okay? We, I mean, a lot of things, because we were all mature returners and all of that. We met all the challenges and pa- and way beyond. So as a student, I just felt like I was so grateful for all of that opportunity. And so, my experience as a student here was great. Stanley: That's great. I love that all that does, the community and faculty knowing each other, stuff like that. Anyway, moving on to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Berhane: Okay. So this was, um, like, you know 10 years or later that the Cross-Cultural Center was implemented and, and whatnot. Uh, so the department, that the Cross-Cultural Center was under was named Student and Residential Life. We became Student and Residential Life. Just (to) give you a little bit of background, why residential life and student activities? Um, in the early, 2000s, the, the Division of Student Affairs, had a reorganization of certain departments on campus. Our department, the student, the Center for Student Involvement, which dealt with student organization, recognition leadership programs, and overseeing ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), ASI elections- was just called Center for Student Involvement. It initially was Student Activities and Alumni Services. Alumni Services split when it became, when it remained Student Activities only, we called it Center for Student Involvement, CSI. That then, like I say, as a result of the division's effort to try to reorganize the division in different departments, they brought the Residential Life and the Student Activities together. Once they brought us together, we decided to find a new name for these two departments coming together. So eventually we came up with Student and Residential Life, SRL. And so, while we were functioning on as a, an SRL, Cross-Cultural Center was added again, I mean, to that department. So we used to call it “C3.” We used to call it Multicultural Programs. I mean, C3 was the most popular name for Cross-Cultural Center. C3. And because the department, the SRL and the office that was assigned for Cross-Cultural Center were together, you just step outside, pass the bathroom, you go to the Cross-Cultural Center. It was just, again, even though we knew we were all part of one department overall, SRL. But having that we have Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 to step outside and go and sit there and they started it with couches, not just chairs. It was just comfortable to go there and engage with the students who were there. Stanley: Do you, uh, remember any sort of activities or programs that the early Cross-Cultural program were, making happen? Berhane: I don't recall all the different, I know there is a, a big event that is, I don't know what it's called now that you do every year, but the, it was more for me, my memory in the fourth floor on Craven Hall (Administrative Building), on the fourth floor. Uh, when we were there initially it was more, okay, here is a program, a space for students to come and engage with each other and sit and relax and have a place to go to. Uh, but it has been a long time. So, I can't say I remember doing this and that with them. But I know there is something as a result of that, whatever started earlier, now there is an annual program and event that Cross-Cultural Center (inaudible). Stanley: So, um, in what ways would you say the Cross-Cultural Center has impacted CSUSM? Berhane: Well, I don't know if it is an impact to CSUSM, but I know Cal State San Marcos from the beginning has been saying diversity, the value of diversity has always been on the mission statement from day one. So the university to show that they are, you know, that being the first center for Multicultural Programs, you know, this is way before there was Black Student Center, Latino Center (Latin@/x Center), Native American Center (California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center), and all of that. To say, let's start with something to at least say, call it a center for cross-cultural, you know, multicultural programs. To me, it was an indication, even though it was after many, many years of hearing the word diversity as part of our mission, serving a diverse community, all of that, to start with something like that, I think it was, a great initiative, it was. And look what happened after that. Okay, so there's Multicultural Programs. What do we do? What is next? What is next? And I think it's a great start. It helped the university start with something successful. Completion of that (Cross-Cultural Center) led to different centers, as you can see where we are right now. I think that's how I look at it, because like I say, I've been hearing the word diverse community, diversity, divers(ity), you know, our mission is to serve our population, diverse population and all of that. So I think it was a good start. So I would say it was a good experience for the university to start with something like that, as opposed to specifically, you know, as one of the different centers that we have right now. Stanley: Yeah. And you say you keep hearing the word diversity, but, would you say that the CrossCultural Center actually did have an impact on creating a more inclusive campus on, at CSUSM? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Well, like everything else, you know, if something’s to... to have impact or something’s to be popular or to be something, it has to be known to more people. Even though, with us through orientations, or everything else, as a campus, again it was more of a, campus with no housing oncampus, everybody was more, you live somewhere else, you come to classes and you will leave. So in the beginning, to be honest, there was not a whole lot of people using it (The Cross-Cultural Center). Uh, only a small group of people would use it. So if you’re there more often, you bring your friends. If I’m there more often, I’ll bring maybe more of my friends. But to the campus as a whole, uh, it was symbolic to have that, but I'm not sure to what, how much that impacted more student population at, you know, at that time. Stanley: Um-hmm. What is the, what's a favorite memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center, um, and how did it maybe affect you personally or professionally? Berhane: Um, I think I mentioned this before, when we talked (before the interview). It's more, um, you know, I work in the office. I’m with the students a lot. You know, many times I'm doing leadership programs, meeting with other students or with other staff members and things like that. So, to me, the Cross-Cultural Center was a place to go and do nothing but just relax. Because it was couches in there and then you're not there seriously to engage in a very, you know, other than just being there to have fun with people and just chat how students are doing. And so to me, it was a place to go, and whether it's through the Associate Directors that are working there, or whether it's through the students who are sitting there, it was a place where you can be free to chat with people and not really be doing work at that time. Uh, so that was how I looked at the center, in my memories, like saying, the couches are always in my head. (laughs). Stanley: Um, looks like we have enough time for these questions. Um, since the Cross-Cultural Center has a lot to do with diversity, inclusiveness, and like being more (inaudible), I noticed when I was researching you that you've had a lot of trouble with people knowing where Eritrea is, and you're telling people, I do remember reading a newspaper article from, I think it was 1990, where you say, “Where is Eritrea? People keep asking me,” and I just wanted to say, do you still feel frustration, towards those who do not know where Eritrea is on the map? And do you still find yourself explaining where it is on a regular basis? Berhane: Well, in the beginning, before I knew how much students actually had a chance to learn about history or geography, it was, “Why don't they know,” you know? “They go to school.” We, when we were in elementary school, we knew all the different countries in the world and who the president was, what the capital city is, and then in the case of African countries when they became independent and things like that. Like it’s initiated in, I mean, like I said earlier, Eritrea when I left was at war for independence. So but, it was not covered in the mainstream media as a country fighting for independence. So when I came here, at least I had expected some people to know, because we had Americans stationed in Eritrea, you know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies. So some people should know Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 where Eritrea is. So, for me to say it is near Sudan, it’s by the Red Sea, it’s near Ethiopia. And so in the beginning I was seriously educating people, but later on it became like, funny to me. It is like, “Where is Eritrea?” Well, the first question always is, “What's your name?” “I'm Gezai.” “Where are you from?” “I'm from Eritrea.” “Where is that?” (Stanley laughs) And then it became like, okay, I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time educating you because you have no clue. So I'll say it's, uh, a little farther than, uh, L.A. just by Santa Barbara. Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. (laughs) No, you wouldn't have heard of that, but I'm sure you heard of Santa Barbara. So the easiest answer for me is, yeah, just go look at it, (laughs), and there was no Google where, you know, we got the search and things like that. So it became funny afterwards because then it's like, it's just a waste of time too. And then if you say, I'm from Africa. Oh, but I've never heard of Eritrea. Well, that's too bad you never heard of Eritrea but that's where I came from. So , I think I transitioned from taking it seriously to maybe blaming a little bit more the educational system that we are not educating people even, you know, at the bachelor's level in the history class or geography. There was a, um, a map that was given, and we have countries identified here so it says, identify where these countries are, you know, on the map. People don't even know the United States, the States where they're supposed to be located! So then I realized, you know, it's not their fault. They just didn't have enough education about different countries, let alone, I mean about their country let alone about other people's countries. So I don't blame people. I don't get frustrated anymore. I'm like, “This is funny.” Depending on how I am interacting with the person, I can either say I'm in Africa or I can just say I'm near Santa Barbara, and that will take care of the business (both laugh). Stanley: Well, love that. It's (inaudible), just in one ear, out the other. Oh, that's cool- Berhane: That's good. Yeah. Stanley: Um, going back to the Cross-Cultural Center, you said that you would spend a lot of time just having fun in there. Could you recall a time with a specific person or a memory inside the Cross-Cultural Center that you remember fondly? Berhane: I think it was more with the second associate director or the first associate directors, and not necessarily with the students, because the names of the students, again, twenty years later, I'm getting too old to remember all of that, even though I can see their faces. It's harder to recall their names right now. But I think it's more the interaction with, um, unscheduled interaction with whether it’s with the associate director, or students who are regular. We used to call it regular students, but to be specifically telling you about individual students, it would be very hard for me. And I'll be lying to you and I don't wanna do that. Stanley: Okay. Well, uh, in what ways, uh, if any, did your involvement with the Cross Culture Center help you expand or develop as a person? And how has that impacted your career or personal life? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: I mean, (laughs), as I said, as an involved person on campus, my professional and personal life as it grows, that I have gained as being part of this campus, it's enormous. It's countless, to tell you the truth, I grew up here. So Cal State San Marcos is home for me. I don't think there's a lot of other people who have started here and remained here for thirty years. Okay? I just retired in 2020-- at the end of 2021, which is thirty years later, since the university started. So the impact that grows personal and professional for me, I can't specifically try to address as a Cross-Cultural Center is, but I think my interaction with people who work at the Cross-Cultural Center, students who came to the Cross-Cultural Center, and being part of student activities. The leadership programs that this department has been planning and going, you know, whether it's going there, whether it is supporting the, uh, initial paperwork and whatnot, working with that group in general is part of my personal and professional growth. So I can't really say specifically and directly this and that. For me, it's more a, uh, the total sum of my overall experience, not just Cross-Cultural Center. Student Activities, Associated Students, the Dean of Students, the whole entire division. And in, and faculty too, as you indicated earlier. You know, if I have interactions with faculty, because we had to work with faculty members because they were supposed to be the advisor of student activity, I mean, student organization advisors, we had to work with faculty as well in doing some kind of orientation about their role and leadership programs, and how to help the student leaders and stuff. So for me, my primary function was in student activities, working with student leaders, student clubs, and organizations. So, the Cross-Cultural Center is, has been, was part of, part and parcel of Student Activities, but my main function wasn't directly that. So. But like I say, as within one department, we have orientation programs, for example. We had Greek Life, we had (to) oversee ASI (Associated Students, Inc.). All of those combined are the result of who I am, as opposed to try to, you know, narrowly say, yeah, this is how, and what the Cross-Cultural Center has left me as an impact. I don't wanna commit to that. Stanley: Let's go broader then. Berhane: Okay Stanley: Um, as a student activities director, were there any activities that you organized that you were particularly connected to or the, uh, moment on campus where you felt that you were promoting inclusiveness and diversity? Berhane: Well, I mean, a lot of the programs that we used to do from Student Activities is more... Okay, so if I notice that certain student groups that are not active, that are not really engaged, and what we used to do is go into orientations from the beginning to say, You gotta remain active on campus. This is, look at me, I never dreamed of working on campus or the university, ever whatsoever. You go to school, to college and you graduate, and you go look for a job somewhere else, but I'm here. So, students, you need to get engaged, you need to get involved. So, me encouraging all the new students that were coming in, or if they were here, and if I get to interact, I like to walk around and see if people are out there who would like to say hello, if they're not engaged, if they're not the student organizations. And Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 within student organizations, if they're not taking leadership roles and things like that, I encourage people at whatever level they are. And so that's, you know, for me, I was fond of encouraging students to take leadership roles, to stay engaged, to work on campus, even at least as a student activity, and I mean as student assistants. And so for me it's more the day-to-day interactions with students, not just in generally, I mean. So, every year we know student organizations have to renew their contract every year. We have to do some leadership program trainings every year. And that's where you meet all the student leaders, and that's how you continue to engage with them and continue to advise them and continue to help them grow. And so for me, it's more, it's really hard to say yes, thirty years of experience is like to narrow it into one event or into one program. I've been part of student, I mean, ASI for example, Associated Students, (Inc.), we started with paper ballots, you know, like check-in the paper ballots. Then we moved to scantrons where you can do scantron, you (Stanley) probably don't remember. And then we had to go move up to online voting and things like that. So, you have to go through so much growth. And so, when you’re part of a lot of new engagements, new initiatives, it’s like you forget it because once you move to the next level, you just forget about that and now you're at next level. So for me, uh, like I say, it's thirty years of engaging with the students, faculty and staff, with administrators. It was a lot of the, a lot of the things that we see right now, whether it is programs through Cross-Cultural Center, or through what used to be SLL, Student Live and Leadership, now it's SLIC (both laugh), Student Leadership and Involvement (Center), something like that. SLIC, they just changed it. Um, a lot of the programs, a lot of orientation. I also worked with housing. So, housing was another area where, where you are engaged with students coming in with family, with their parents, you were engaged and things like that. And so, for me, it's just a, I was not like static in one department or in one function doing just one specific thing. I have been engaged within a lot of different things on campus. So that to me is, it makes it harder for me. It's like, as a result of me doing what specific area, this is where I am, or this is where I was, this is where I got. Is it just so much that I can say I've been a part of? And as a result, I grew up with it (laughs) and I even got retired, bro. (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. You say, that you really don't know, like what, I couldn't really go into specifics. Um, could I ask you to tell me just, just any story that you might have, of helping a student or being involved in the, on campus or anything like that? Berhane: Um, so for example, on Orientation Team. Stanley: Mm-hmm. Berhane: Orientation Team is, there's a training every year. We go camping. You go camping to Ramona or to Alpine (California) or things like that. My most memorable memories with the students is when you are going to those kinds of three, four-day trainings and camping and you are doing all kinds of crazy things in there. And so for me, my most memorable uh, fun memories are related to the orientation team going places and being trained. Things on campus, we've done so much. But when you get outta here and do other activities off campus, those were memorable. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Stanley: Um, let's see here. Um, could you tell me about your involvement with Greek Life? Berhan: (laughs) Greek Life? Hmm. So when we initially started the department Student Activities in 1993, Greek life was not recognized as Greek Life. Greek life was more, you can initiate, but we are not gonna recognize you as a Greek Life organization because first of all, you have to go and communicate with the National Greek (Life) Association (National Panhellenic Conference). The campus was not a grown-up campus. And so my engagement with Greek life was more before they became Greek Life, before they became recognized, um, Greek organizations. It was more you give, they give them (pseudonyms) and we know where they're heading, but they recognized as student organizations where it's not supposed to discriminate membership based on gender and whatnot. Because as you know, Greek organizations are based on gender, kind of like the, sororities, fraternities and things like that. So their names were not as Greek names. It was more a pseudo other names. We know where they're heading, that's where they're trying and planning. But my, so in the early days when I was part of, you know, when they were part of that student organization, they were just student organizations. That's my experience with them. Once we recognized them, we started recognizing them, then the process of working with them moved to a new Greek Life advisor. And I remained with the rest of the other student organizations. So Greek Life before they became Greek Life, yes, I know who they were. I worked with them as their advisor. But once we have started to recognize them fully, then a Greek Life advisor has to come. A Greek Life advisor was hired. That's how we kind of-- we are in the same department, but me doing student organizations, these other person, Greek life leadership programs, all of us. And then orientation, and then Cross-Cultural Center, you know, all coming from within this department. Stanley: Um, you mentioned that, uh, they had to use pseudonyms instead of real Greek names. I was wondering if you could remember any of the names. Berhane: I can't. I can't. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to go back to the, the good old days. Um, we had, you know, documents. I don't have any of the documents, but if you wanna go search what the earlier, earlier student organizations... You kind of, you can find it in the (19)93, 94, 95 years, what student organizations were. I think some of that list might be still in student activities or SLIC or ASI might have that list as well. But it was, like I say, it is very hard for me to remember all of those. But it was three or four different student organizations. Stanley: Well, thank you for the reference at least. Um, you talked about, about how you were involved with student residential life, um, in the same vein as being working earlier in CSUSM. How was residential, residential life in CSUSM earlier on? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane : So before the, uh, UVA (University Village Apartments), the university village was built, the campus had, leased apartments in what we call it, uh, the islands apartments. The Islands Apartments. Out of many of the apartments, the university leased several buildings and rooms. So we used to house students. And so even though I was working still in Student Activities, the Director of Student Activities was also overseeing the, uh, of campus housing. We called it the off-campus housing initiative. And so I was, I happened to be the other person also to help with that. So it was, again, off campus, the Islands Apartments. It's off of Wood, you know, in San Marcos, if you are familiar with San Marcos, uh, Twin Oaks (Road) going east, there is the golf course. Right across the golf course. There's Woodward. Woodward is a street. So I think they changed the name, but it used to be called the Islands Apartment. And so even though we were not, nobody was resident in there from us, the staff members, we were there to support students. It was, I was part of that. And that's pretty much so. And then once we build the UVA, the University Village, then everybody new has to take over. Uh, even though to this day, the Dean of Students where I worked overseas housing, all housing. So the directors of the on-campus housing, I think they also reported to the Dean of Students. And so, me remaining in, within the Dean of Students, under the Dean of Students kind of gave me an opportunity to really engage in work or move in, move out and things like that. But my experience with housing started with off-campus housing, and I continued to also do a list of off-campus housing. Um, so it still is in existence, I think. Stanley: Sorry, I keep, I keep asking you, but, uh, do you have any sort of (Berhane laughs) say sort of story or memorable moment in those residential, like when you were helping people move in or move out or stuff like that? Berhane: Yeah, it's just, so maybe a fun memories is where, you know, I live very close to them. And so if I take my kids with me and have my kids in there and, uh, see where, you know, this is for students, college students, I think for me it's more like my whole family was involved in things like that wherever I go, whether it's an event here. But fun memories with off campus housing, I mean, there was a lot of stuff people throw away and things like that. It’s like, you know, there's a lot. And for me, with my background from Africa. Like, there's a lot of people who could use all of those things. Things that are being thrown away. And it just-- things that I can think as like memories, okay, they're going throw the mattress to the trash, I mean, throwing it, oh wow, (laughs), somebody could have used that one. Uh, things like that. But I mean, in engaging specifically with individual students to say, I know so and so, so and so, is not there yet. It's not there anymore. (laughs) It's not there. Like the fact that I can remember the Islands Apartment because it was the initial apartments. We had students who lived there, you know, the residents of, uh, you know, a subleased apartment, but we were administering it and things like that. I think those things, I can see the apartments and the people, some people, but not a, uh, not a whole lot of memory of individuals. Stanley: Um, how, how has seeing CSUSM grow over the years impacted you, and your life around the CSUSM community? Berhane: Ahh. You know, I indicated earlier, I came to San Marcos when San Marcos was really a, uh, a mobile home community, a retirement community. When there was no stop signs or four, you know, four-way stops. It was just, you go from one place to another with no stop and five minutes was enough Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 to get you from where you are to where you need to go, where you want to go. The fact that for thirty some years right now, I've seen the growth of San Marcos in general as a community, to where we are right now. It's very hard for me to believe, to tell you the truth. It's just very hard for me to believe. So, the impact is from this small community, retirement community, a neat community to the kind of growth that you see-- even when we moved here (from CSU Jerome’s campus) in 1992, we only had, what, four buildings? This building (Kellogg Library), Commons, Academical Hall, Science Hall. That was it. That was it. It was just fine. It was nice. Now to see where we are, even though in, you know, in (inaudible) there was, uh, something called, “in twenty-five years Cal State San Marcos is supposed to have grown to have up to 25,000 students.” Well, for different reasons that didn't happen. Economy and whatnot and whatnot. But for me, I like the fact that it has grown. So my kids can go to the schools where they went to. Richland (Elementary School), Woodland (Park Middle School), Mission Hills (High School). But those things, well Mission (High School) was not there. I mean, all the growth for me to be able, instead of going (to) San Diego State to be able to finish in San Marcos, I had benefited a lot to be part of it. I mean, extra lucky to be working in here instead of San Diego or moving to other kinds of states or other cities. San Marcos in general, as a community, as a university, gave me life. Life. Do you know, life? Life. It gave me life. So for me, it's beyond, I'm beyond grateful for the impact that Cal State San Marcos. The fact that Cal State San Marcos, when it came time, the place, where everything, I raised three kids in San Marcos who all three of 'em went to like, oh, I told you Richland, Woodland, and then went to college. None of them came here (CSUSM) ‘cause Daddy works here (laughs). So they had to go to different states. But, um, but they knew where, what my expectations of them, they knew they were part of, I was part of this. And they knew they were not just going to finish high school and not go to college. So they all did at least their four, the four-year degree. So for me, it is life. My experience, the people that I come to know here at the university, the faculty, staff, students, it gave me life. I'm telling you, I don't know where I would've been if it wasn’t for Cal State San Marcos. And the whole general San Marcos, the whole area. So I'm very, very grateful. Stanley: That's, that's incredible. Um, yeah, it's just, it's almost like a, it's become like a campus town at this point now. Berhane: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I mean, when I was a student, there was no parking fees or anything (laughs). Now I have (to) pay, like an hour. You pay my job, just leave me (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. There's a train that runs along now. Berhane: That's a different story (laughs). That's a different story, man. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Stanley: Getting back, uh, as we're winding down, um, I know that you had, you were involved with the Black Student Union and Black Student Center. How would would you say that pro, those programs and that, what's the word, uh, correlates or stacks up against the Cross-Cultural Center? I'd say, so. Berhane: Um, I think what, you know, during time, with time you have to identify all the different things that you need, who needs what. And so, I don't know, I don't wanna compare or compete or anything as, you know, not just a Black Student Center, not just a Latino Center, not just a Women's Center or a Native American Center. It's more they all have their own individual roles to play in the, in, in, you know, in this community. So, Black Student Center was a necessary department, was a necessary service, a necessary center to have on campus. If we are going to have specific groups feeling welcomed and that they have a space on campus. With Multicultural Programs its good, when multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-gender, or whatever you call it, in name. It-- but they're able to come and use that as a center for that. But I think people feel comfortable where they feel they belong to. Just like the student organizations. When I was a student, when I see a sociology club, accounting club, Latino club, well, I wanted to have the Black Student Club. So I was part of a Black student club. Uh, we were calling it African American or African Student Organization, African, all kinds of stuff, trying to say we have something that belongs to us. So for me, it's not like in comparison to other centers, it was necessary to have a center for the Black students to feel comfortable enough to go there. And so for us, again, as advocates for services to different interests of different student groups, to have that implemented and to see that while I was a student, I while I was an employee here, was a great thing. I was always involved like I say from day one, whether since starting a student organization, once I became a staff (employee designation), we have the Black Faculty and Staff Association. I've been part of that (inaudible) since day one. When we graduated in 1992, I became one of the board members with the Alumni Association, starting Alumni Association I can say I've been part of a lot of starting things because I think the need, the need is there and if I'm able to help on engage(ment), why not? So I as, as someone who was active as a student, once I graduated, I was also pulled to help start the Alumni Association. And so I think, you know, in trying to answer your question, it's not really in competition or one over the other or against the other. It's more providing services to the different populations, different groups with different interests that we have on campus. Stanley: Uh, yeah, perhaps I worded that a little wrong. You touched on this before, but what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center play as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces like you named before? Berhane: I think it requires an understanding of what its mission is, an understanding. So if I'm coming as a student, new student coming to campus, I'm a Black student. I'm not going to ask for multicultural programs where, you know, “Where is a multicultural program?” I'm gonna ask, where is a Black Student Center? If I'm going to join a student organization, I'm either going to ask for something related to my major or something related to my identity. And so, multicultural, Cross-Cultural Center, the definition of it needs to be clear to people from day one at orientation. Okay? And so, yes, it does have a mission. Yes, it does have a purpose to be here on campus to serve, but is it serving the group of people who don't have a center already? Or is it bringing all the centers together? And so, uh, reexamination of the whole purpose of Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center might be necessary at some point to say, “Who am I serving?” Okay? Because you have Latino Center here, Women's Center, gender, you know, gender and Black Student Center, there may be a need to really qualify, “Why should I go there?” Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Even though I know I'm familiar with it. But if I am a newcomer, what am I gonna look for? It does serve a population that doesn't, that doesn't fit any of the other ones (other centers). But what extent do they understand it? To what extent are they familiar and aware of this service and this center? Stanley: I guess the same thing I ask as a longtime CSUSM (staff and administrative) member and student of CSUSM, what advice would you give the Cross-Cultural Center to be more inclusive and, and get those people who are outside of the lines of the Latin(@/x) Center, or the Black (Student) Center? Berhane: I don't know if, uh, Floyd (Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time of the interview’s recording) will need my advice. I'm sure he, he is very familiar with what he's doing and what, you know, what he sees all the different centers around him, and he works very closely with the student centers and stuff. So they don't really need my advice. But I think, you know, always doesn't hurt to go back and look at who is, who is being engaged here? Who is our population? Who is the most frequently arrival here in relation to-- So if I were to look back at who the most popular, what population used to be there... more often it is more of the Asian population. Okay. So the Asian population probably don't have any other location, but the Multicultural Programs (Cross-Cultural Center). Because we, I'm being honest, this Black Student center, Latino Center, Indian Center, there's an argument there should be a White center too. But (laughs), that's a different story. But I think the thing is, you know, a lot of, we’ve got to go back and take a look at the purpose of this center. Are we serving the population that we were formed to serve and continually revise. Take, you know, take notes of all the people who have come to you on a daily basis and see if we are missing anybody. If we are missing anybody, the best place to meet them is at orientation. When they all come in on campus with their families and you know, tell them where all the different services are, make that as a, you know, make it as an effort. I used to do recruitment too even when I was a student assistant. Students who heard me talk about “Cal State Marcos will offer you this, this, and that.” Once they come to Cal State San Marcos, if they experience the things that I told them; Cal State San Marcos will serve you, they (the students) would remember that and say, “I'm so glad that you said that. I am glad I heard you say that.” And I can see, and really, I use that and it's helped, it has helped me. I really appreciate that. So, we need to be able to impact students from the day one, what kind of services we are providing for them and why they should come to our department, why they should come to our service, why they should come to my class, why they should do those things at the orientation, at wherever they are at the beginning. And so, identify your population, identifying all the different services you can provide, as much as you can provide. You don't expect someone, uh, search you and come to your office. They're not, they're not gonna come, unless they hear you say something, something. Stanley: So, yes. So to, to uh, summarize, make people aware of the program. Make sure that you know who you're serving and that, why they should come there. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Yes. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I mean, people need to know. A lot of people if they, if you don't know it, you don't know it, you're not going to go and search for it. You haven't heard anybody talking about it. So even though it may be available in your fingertips, this is different. Maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm more like person to person, but for me, the only way people can come to (the services) is (if) they're aware of it. So make it aware and be clear about what services you're providing and where you are located, what your hours are, your phone number and blah blah. And have 'em (students) come. And it, again, it doesn't have to be limited to orientation or one area or this and that. Could be classrooms. It could be announcements, it could be a lot of things. But make sure that, you know, you are known on campus for providing services that all students need or specific students need. Stanley: All right. Well I really appreciate you coming. I'm gonna end the recording now. Berhane: Well, thank you. Uh, let me say thank you, uh, Seth, for this opportunity. And I say I'm grateful that you invited me and that I'm a part of this. I hope I have given you what I know a little bit, but I really appreciate this opportunity and thank you very much as well. Stanley: I enjoyed the conversation as well. Ending the recording now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2023-10-30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Berhane, Gezai. Interview transcript. March 29th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. This interview was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from California State University San Marcos's Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gezai Berhane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-29 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Greek life California State University San Marcos. Student Activities Refugees -- Eritrea Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Eritrea San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gezai Berhane Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29 Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Immigrant experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5490a2f714ae99ef8991f09f90947482.pdf f155830d06e7141eac3e5191343c7007 PDF Text Text BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I'm a graduate research assistant with Kellogg Library at CSU (Cal State University) San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Bridget Blanshan, Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator here at CSU San Marcos. The date is April twenty-sixth, and the time is 1:36 p.m. So, Bridget, thank you for joining us today to discuss your involvement with the history of the Cross-Cultural Center, as well as talk about some other programs that you've implemented at CSU San Marcos. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: The first question I wanted to ask you was actually about your academic background. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: So what led you to your interest in student advocacy and ultimately administration in higher ed. (education)? Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Good question. So Michael, thanks for the time today. This is gonna be a fun conversation. So, I have a bachelor's degree in business management which I received from Iowa State University. That's the state in which I was born and raised through my college graduation. And while--as many of us, it occurs for many of us who go into student affairs work, it was really during my college experience that I interacted with student affairs professionals. I was involved on campus, and I thought, this is really rewarding for me, and this seems like an interesting career. Let me, let me see if I like it. Let me try it on. And so I had been active as a, a student leader and as a student employee, Resident Assistant was what they were called at that time in student housing at Iowa State (University). And I really enjoyed that role. And so, I spoke with my supervisor and asked what she thought, and she talked with me about kind of how to get my foot in the door and take a job to, to see if that was something I was interested in. So, I did that and I started as a Hall Coordinator at San Diego State University in 1990. I expected to be there just for a couple of years and then go back to the Midwest. But I really fell in love with the state and the CSU mission, which is really around as, as I think many of us are aware, really around being the educator for the state of California. Really providing an opportunity for the diverse student, um students across our state to get a college degree, many of whom are first in their family to do that. And that was something that I, I was very--really realized I was very passionate about. So, I then went on knowing that I would need a master's degree, at least, to continue in Student Affairs and work on a college campus. So, in 1993, I started a master's degree in a program called Educational Leadership at the University of San Diego. And I graduated with my master's degree in 1995. And that was great because I was able to match the, the core requirements, which was about half of the program, with relevant electives, which for me was able to do for example, some of the programs that they offered in their college student personnel or college student counseling program. So that was a great combination. And I continued working at San Diego State until 2001, at which point I came to CSUSM and started my, my tenure here. And then in 2004, I started a doctoral program at the University of Laverne, and it was a doctoral program in Organizational Leadership and found that really rewarding as well and really, really relevant. It's very much a hands-on applied program. So my educational background, which was really the focus of your question, is in management and leadership studies. I've been able to work in, either through courses that I've elected to take or the projects that I've done, really looking at organizations through a, a lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). And so I'm very grateful for being able to have done that. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: Very, very cool. And very impressive. You've been at CSUSM since 2001. I'd like to know what your first impression of CSUSM was, and then in particular, what work you felt like needed to be done there. Blanshan: Sure. So, as I mentioned, I was at San Diego State for eleven years working in student housing. While I was there, about midway through those eleven years, SDSU celebrated its’ centennial. And so then starting at, at CSUSM, and the position that I came to perform was what was then called the Director of Student and Residential Life. And in particular, we were bringin--University Village Apartments (UVA)--that was about concurrent when the time I started, that was approved to be constructed. So that was a major focus of getting the campus ready to have on-campus student housing, and students who were with us 24/7 rather than students commuting at the point as they did. And so coming to, from a(n) over one hundred-year-old campus to a campus that was really new--I'm not quite sure that, I don't think we had celebrated our fifteenth anniversary yet, or we did shortly around the time I arrived. I was, I really enjoyed the students that I met, and I found that the, the campus, the employees were really, really committed to the campus and to the student body. We had only been admitting first year students. It, we started, the campus started by admitting transfer students, and then over, within say the next five to seven years, started admitting first year students. So one of the things that I noticed, from a student life perspective, is it, we didn't have some of the common experiences that first year students on other campuses had. We, there, there were very few night and weekend kind of activities, and which only made sense because many of our transfer students had families of their own, the average age had been, of a student in the early days of CSUSM, had been in the late twenties, so around twenty-eight or twenty-nine years old. So that's, that's very different than the, the college experience that we're offering today. And so, I really looked for ways to start building the foundation, for that (student experience offered at CSUSM today). So at the time, Student and Residential Life included, so residential life, getting ready for student housing and the experience they, that students would have there. We had at the time, two fraternities and two sororities. So we had foundations of fraternity and sorority life. New student orientation was part of the department, as were student organizations. I wanna say within my first, first year or two, we had, I think all of thirty-one student organizations. So it was, again, in its, in its infancy a bit. And then we also, shortly thereafter, started leadership programs. And so that was kind of what we were building, and trying to build that with a vision as to the students that the university would come to serve, as opposed to the students that, that we had served in the, the beginning of the campus. So that's maybe a long answer to your question of what did I think we needed to do? And it was kind of set our, set ourselves up with the building blocks, so that we could serve a student body that was very diverse in terms of age. So at that point, we were, our diversification was to be the average age coming younger, students who lived on campus, and a true diverse student body; that would those kind of build those co-curricular foundations so that it was already, there wouldn't be impediments to students wanting to do things that really met their interests more than, than kind of how things had been outlined in the early years. De Maria: I see. So, a lot of new and exciting developments, obviously some growing pains, right? Blanshan: Oh, absolutely. Sure. De Maria: Cool. From there, I'd like you to take me back to 2002. So, in that year, you authored a memo titled “Vision 2010” that essentially espoused the need for, you know, a multicultural center on campus. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 So I just wanted to ask, what were your aspirations for offering that memo? And then why was there-you did explain it a bit in shifting demographics--but just why there was a need for a multicultural center on campus at that time. Blanshan: Yeah, I think, I think for me, and I mentioned this you know, as I shared with you about my education, I think it's both through my education of being able to look at, at leadership and organizations. And I would say that not only for being a workplace as a university, but also being a--a place, a college campus, is really looking at things through a diversity, equity, and inclusion lens. And so, making certain that we were continuing to evolve in a way where the students who were coming to study with us could feel that they could make a home or a connection somewhere. And so, it's, it's really to the notion of finding a sense of belonging. Some students would find that through a fraternity or sorority other students would find that through Associated Students (Incorporated, student governance organization). I felt very much that, two things; one was that some students would find a place that specifically was designed to be multicultural affirming and in that, that use of even the term “culture,” we intentionally set it very broadly because again, this was before we had any, any identity center on campus that was only student focused. So, this was before the Women's Center, which then evolved to the Gender Equity Center, now, Women's and Gender Equity Center, (it) was before the Pride Center. So, it really was defined “cultural” very, very broadly. So how people's experiences, their community, their sense of identity, and how we could really intentionally affirm that, so that students kind of felt a sense of belonging. I, going back to thinking about, you know, student development as they engage outside the classroom and thinking about, so I mentioned we were also developing a student leadership development program. So for me in, in, you know, being situated in a new millennium, right, in 2001, 2002, the only way to really do that authentically in a way that met student needs, but also spoke to students, but also prepared them for life after college, was to have a multicultural focus on leadership. And so not only what, what is the, the end goal of our leadership endeavors, but how do we do, how do we do leadership and prepare students to lead in very diverse teams, very diverse communities and, and do that in a variety of different ways. So as they want to go out and engage in change making, how might they do that? So that was where, one of the reasons that I wrote that which is so interesting now in 2023 to, to think back of writing “Vision 2010.” But to--I think it was also part of that foundation building that I was talking about before. How do we really create this so that we're intentionally offering as much as we can for places for students to plug-in and feel like CSUSM is theirs? And it's theirs not only as a place to belong, but in a place where they can engage and make it even better. The other thing that I would say, not only in my education, but eleven years at San Diego State in student housing, I had an amazing opportunity to be at a very diverse institution. And in student housing in particular, it's a very unique kind of learning lab for people to come together and live together, a wide variety, a wide diversity of students. So we had to be very, very intentional about preparing our staff, preparing our student leaders to do those roles in a very diverse environment. And so that very much affected kind of how I saw my work in Student Affairs. And a lot of the endeavors that we did throughout the 1990s to enable students, much like I described with a Multicultural Programs area, but to enable students to feel at home, especially students from communities and identities who were often marginalized. And so really pro- doing that in a very intentional way. De Maria: Absolutely. So it sounds like with the founding of that Multicultural Center you'd be essentially addressing some qualitative gaps in the student experience. Not only on the emotional kind Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 of community front, but also allowing students to gain some professional experiences and background too. Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Exactly. De Maria: Very cool. Now I'd like to take you, I'd like for you to take me back to 2003. So what was the social climate of the campus like prior to the establishment of that first Multicultural Center? Blanshan: Wow, that's a great question. And, and I can only, in order to be fair, you know, this is, this is only my perspective on it. So I can't speak for how other people would've described the social climate. And clearly this is informed from my eleven years at San Diego State. So being a very large urban university in the middle of a very large city (San Diego)--San Marcos, at the time the region, North County region, was I would say much more socially and politically, religiously to some extent, conservative. Compared to the broader San Diego County. So that, I think we felt--I felt that, I'll speak for myself, I felt that at CSUSM, that and I think the university was kind of coming to terms with how do we, how do we serve our community knowing that there, that this is a more conservative area within the county. I think we had students who I knew div-- especially some of the, the diversity and i--of identities that aren't visible. Um I of course assumed that for example, we had LGBTQ+ students, but I didn't know them because there wasn't necessarily a student organization. So there wasn't the visibility or the space, as I was more accustomed to at San Diego State. And, and I don't think it was out of any intent to exclude anyone. I think it was just in the building, the very formative years of the institution, and really building the academic programs and coming in and it just was really the time in the institution's development to really focus on kind of broadening the co-curricular experiences for our students. So it was, it was certainly a transition for me. But I also, I would say I also found such wonderful professional colleagues who were of like-mind. And we, we came together and partnered a great deal toward these initiatives. So we had in, the department's name shifted, within my leadership of it, from Student and Residential Life to Student Life and Leadership. And we enjoyed amazing partnerships with Associated Students (Inc). And that's not always something that one takes for granted on a college campus. But I think we were able to come together, clarify you know, how we each add to the campus, to the student experience, and how we can support each other in doing that. So it was, there was a lot of synergy there. For that collaboration. I reported to the Dean of Students at the time, who very much shared this vision and supported it with everything that he could. Certainly the leadership in (Division of) Student Affairs were supportive as well. So I think it was, we were, we were just in that place of the development of the campus where it, I guess the way to sum it up is to say just because something didn't exist didn't mean there wasn't support for it. It just was that growth trajectory that the campus was taking. De Maria: Totally. And it, obviously with necessary growth, that's very cool to hear about. In a 2006 issue of The Pride (student) newspaper, while introducing a talk from Reverend Dr. Jamie Washington, you describe Cal State San Marcos students as “having good fortune for being in a place where not everyone looks like them.” I'd like to know how programs at the Cross-Cultural Center, or at the time the Multicultural Center reinforced that notion and what those early programs looked like. Blanshan: Sure. That's--you're reminding me of things I've forgotten (laughs). One of the things that the Associate Director at the time, so the founding Associate Director Dilcie Perez, one of her first initiatives was, and this was another partnership with the Dean of Students Office, with all of Student and Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 Residential Life at the time and ASI (Associated Student Inc.) was, she built the Multicultural Student Leadership Council. And so, within that council there were, started really with looking at student organizations that were built around identity. So, that could have been one, our, if we had a Women's Studies Student Association, which we did back in the day, if we had an African-American Student Association, so some of the predecessors of, you know, BSU (Black Student Union) or our LGBTQ student org (Pride Center), other organizations that were built around religious identity and expression. So really looking at purposely bringing people together, knowing that their, that their focus of their organization, their identities may be different, but the organization had a common mission which was to promote student belonging, advocate for student needs. And so how could they support each other or be allies for each other as they each sought to do that independently, but then also where the, where are the ways that they could promote that collectively as well. So that was, that was just one example. I think, you know when we had Dr. Washington, I remember, I remember that year and I remember the, we had a wonderful turnout of student leaders to go through that experience. And I remember thinking that and he was really focusing on diversity and leadership and equity and, and equity minded leadership. And what are, how do we get to know each other in all of the identities that we all share and that those in which we’re different. And the intersectionality that all of us represent. And so I think I just remember looking across the students that were assembled that evening and thinking, this, this is, this is the kind of opportunity that without the diversity of our student body, that opportunity would not exist. And so how do we, how do we take that and make that a transformative experience being the ultimate goal? De Maria: Totally. Yeah. And I think one theme that we've already touched on is, you know, the value of that educational experience, but also as a professional experience too. So being in diverse places oftentimes makes us just better at what we do. And then regarding your participation in, you know, Multicultural Center programs or Cross-Cultural Center programs I'd like to know about specific programs that were put on and then what your experiences were like, kind of engaging with them or directing with them. Blanshan: Sure. Oh, there were a handful. We did, we had started some, and I'm not going to remember the name of it, but a kind of a Cross-Cultural welcome for incoming students is kind of one of the, the events that we would offer at week, what are now referred to as Weeks of Welcome. Again, I think creating space where students could just check it out, see what it's like, 'cause that's really, you know it, we want students to explore as much of the campus communities as they can as soon as they get here. And so, I think not only to experience and to hear but also to experience that through this event, we're symbolizing the importance of not only diversity, but inclusion. And, and we often put those two words together, but they're, they're different, right? I think diversity, diversity exists, and it doesn't mean that it, it exists without our collective effort, but just because someplace is diverse doesn't mean it's inclusive. And so how do we symbolize that, have that be kind of a, a cornerstone program that kicks-off a student's experience at CSUSM, and then how do we just start and build on that? So, certainly doing hosting and co-hosting that for several years is, is one example. We talked about the Multicultural Student Leadership Council that we would do overnight retreats. That evolved over time into the better part of a weekend. So a Friday through, kind of like midday Friday through midday Sunday experience for students. And I think that kind of deep dive and being part of that was always really, really rewarding. Again, very harken back to a lot of the work that I had done at, at San Diego State. So really kind of bringing that in, for students to be able to do a deep dive and for them to create space where it's--it's where learning is okay and discomfort is expected. And to, you Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 know, really hopefully broaden their viewpoints, or affirm those that may not be held by many or most students. And so I think doing that (overnight retreats), I think there were, oh gosh so many things as we brought out, brought on student housing as well that I've, I will always describe student housing as a high risk, but also high reward offering. A high risk in that if, again looking at it through the lens of a diverse student body, that if there's, if we're not there intentionally assisting students to live together through those differences, then the risk of someone feeling very targeted and excluded can be really high. The counterpoint to that is if that's done well, and of course that's, that part of doing that well is the, is students themselves being open to it. That can be an amazingly impactful experience. So, I think working very intentionally in partnership of--with our Resident Advisor, training with our professional staff and being part of the selection and training of those folks. Having that voice at the table that really is looking at how are we preparing for the student experience through a lens of, diversity and equity and inclusion. Or lenses, I should say. And that's not to say that we always got it right. But it, but there's not a chance of getting it right if there's not some intentionality to it. De Maria: Totally, and just acknowledging the difficulty of including that student housing component with Student Life, it, you know, sounds like you needed everyone to be all in, not just to provide that good experience, but also to provide the proper one for certain individuals. Blanshan: Right. Right. Yep. Yeah, it was, it was a, I reflect so fondly on those early days because it very much was we regard(less), everyone had a bit of a different role, right? Different responsibilities. But in order for anyone to succeed, it required everybody. Simply because of the size of our departments or the size of our institution. And we figured out how to do that well. So that actually was a rewarding outcome just to be kind of in community with our colleagues to support whatever endeavor was, was happening at the time. De Maria: Very cool. For my next question, I wanted to know about instances of activism you witnessed. Or participated in that stemmed from the Cross-Cultural Center slash Multicultural Center. Blanshan: Wow. It's hard to pinpoint something that stemmed only from Multicultural Programs, 'cause again, I was talking about that collaboration, that synergy. So I would maybe hope you'll allow me to go maybe a little bit broader. Some of the things that, that we just kind of accept as business as usual if you will, are the fact that we have the number of identity related centers that we do. So back in the day, at the start of the Cross-Cultural, well again, what we call Multicultural Programs and we had a very, very small space. But it then I think, and through our partnership with ASI (Associated Students Inc.) and their own commitment, then that generated a Women's Center, then generated the LGBTQ+ Pride Center. And then we, if you look at the (University) Student Union (CSUSM building), if you were to walk the third floor of the Student Union, you would see the Cross-Cultural Center, the Latin@/x Center, Women's and Gender Equity, and the Pride Center. You'd go up another floor and see, see the Black Student Center and more centers to come. Certainly we have the Veteran’s Center and the, it's space where it's at. I think, I like to think that Multicultural Programs laid the, laid the ground for that to grow. Because I think having a space to come together and people to see what happens when students come together, then kind of lends itself to now we've opened the door, let's talk about what we want this to look like. And I, and those occurred by like I said, either through ASI or through student organizations and student leaders, really activating with the university leadership to make sure that they happen, in the case of Latinx and BSC (Black Student Center). So I think I look at it that way. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 I look at, at the fact that all the centers are in general in the same location. And that was very intentional. They're--we didn't split them out by like their home department, if you will. It was, “How do we place these so students are going to engage them as, as much as we can get them to engage?” And so it's no accident that they're on the third floor (of the University Student Union) together, right under food. 'Cause we know students will come in for food. I think things like University Hour (no classes held between 12 to 12:50pm Tuseday and Thursday) is that, you know, how does that relate to you know, Multicultural Programs? I think it relates because we also were introducing programs and events that where we could articulate the student learning associated with those programs and events. To reserve, you know, twelve to twelve fifty a couple of days a week in a college in a university's academic schedule is no small sacrifice. That is, can be considered prime teaching time. And I think it was because we had laid a foundation that we will, we’re able to say it's not that education is stopping from twelve to twelve fifty, it's just we're enabling students; in particular, those students who didn't live with us weren't able because of maybe they had family and work and, and all kinds of things, but they were likely on campus so they could have an experience that they otherwise wouldn't have. Sorry, I can think of you know pointing to something as now that we see as large--that we can only envision, as large as the USU (University Student Union) I could see the vacant ground from my office window of where it was, where it now was built and sitting; to something that I think, you know, University Hour is tradition here. I think presently the Student Leadership and Involvement Center which is kind of an evolvement of what we started with Student and Residential Life. They also continue to offer Women's Leadership Symposium. So that was something we also launched about the same time leadership from a leadership and cultural place. Because I think when we broadly consider a cultural experience or an identity related experience, I think that's where we get into notions that gender and how we are socialized to be however we identify in our gender is a really important factor to how we engage with the campus and the broader world. So. De Maria: Yeah, and I really, that really resonates with me in terms of thinking of the establishment of those centers as activism. Ultimately, all activism is meant to affect an institutional change. So it's just very empowering to hear that there were so many individuals who were empowered to do that and kind of follow in the Multicultural Center's footsteps in that respect. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: Well so, for my next question on a bit of a different noteBlanshan: Sure. De Maria: I managed to find a mem- or a letter, I guess, from FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education. And that was a letter that you were cc'd (carbon copied) on regarding a student publication called the Koala. So the Koala, just giving a brief summary for anyone listening to this interview, was a satirical newspaper on CSUSM campus that was known for publishing questionable, lewd, some would even say obscene content about people in the community and would sometimes lampoon, you know certain efforts from student organizations to do a lot of (laughs) to affect change positively. Blanshan: Right. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: So my question isn't necessarily about the Koala, but it is about opposition. So I do want to ask you if there were groups, or if there was prominent opposition? And how that manifested itself on campus. Blanshan: And when you, you say opposition, are you thinking opposition to establishing Multicultural Programs, or as we kind of went out and did various programmatic initiatives, or? De Maria: I'm referring to cha- yeah, so challenging the necessity for Multicultural Programs as well as the outcomes of those programs. Blanshan: Hmm. You know, I, I think we see so many examples of that, that opposition today. I think I, as we set out to kind of create you know the vision and mission for Multicultural Programs, it was--how do I say this? I think there are different roles for different change makers to move society forward. So I think there are some that are, are very focused on being almost, there's a role for opposing existing institutions. There's also a role for folks operating inside an institution to elevate something, which is kind of how I would think we did this with Multicultural Programs, bringing the program to life, bringing, you know creating even more space for it. I think there wasn't opposition to it organizationally, and I don't--so this is the catch with trying to mem--you know, go back 20 years in memory. I don't know that there was vocal or visible pushback, but I do think anytime we're talking about social justice and equity, it can be an inclusive space for some, and it also because it's challenging the status quo leaves others feeling excluded or blamed or it, that's where some of that discomfort happens. And I think we very much try to include, even voices who might say, you know, “Why do we need this?” Why do we-because I think it was, it's always being able to say to a student who may say, “I don't think we need this on, on campus. I don't think the campus should be spending resources in this way.” Being able to sit down and say, “Okay, let's talk about your vision for your career. Where, do you hope to work?” And, you know, learning more about the, the individual. “Who do you think your coworkers will be? Who do you think your boss might be? Who do you think, if you were if you have constituents that your product or services is going out to target, who will they be? And think about how these experiences might better prepare you to be successful in that environment that you are in that future that you're envisioning for yourself.” So I think trying to include, include everybody? While knowing that the impact of the program, the experience, or the initiative is gonna be different based on how people see themselves. And how they perceive their place to be in the campus community or the world. De Maria: Totally. And once again, you kind of touched on that concept of social justice, diversity, and equity kind of being necessary as something that we kind of can't avoid living in the modern world. So again, definitely resonates with me and is definitely a pertinent message to anyone who might not see the value of certain programs like that. Regarding the Cross-Cultural Center itself, I'd like you to tell me what your favorite memory is. Blanshan: Hmm. I have many. I think certainly something that comes to mind are the, when we started the retreats, and we kind of, this was, when I say “we,” it was a very broad “we,” so it was folks who maybe their- our positions didn't envision us being on a weekend retreat with students. But because people had either an area of expertise or a passion or experience in another role at another campus or another, you know, organization such as like Anti-Defamation League or something like that, that they could really come together, brought a group of people together that didn't always work with each other, and to really offer something that could be so transformative. And I think it's just, and also being with Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 students as they go through an experience like that is a really--it's a unique opportunity of getting to kind of participate in or watch from the side of students grappling with concepts, grappling with their emotions around whatever it is we're talking about. Creating space to hear each other. You know, those are, those are just really powerful experiences. So that, that would absolutely be a favorite. I don't think I could name the favorite, but definitely a favorite. It's also been a pleasure to watch the space grow and watch it grow in terms of now I think some of the, the great work that Floyd (Lai)'s (Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) been doing with us for, for many years, but like the Activist Lab (Cross-Cultural Center work space) or you know, working on, on preparing people to have difficult dialogues and how to do that. I think I think it's so critically, it's been critically important the whole time. But I, as I reflect on kind of what we're hit with in the media today about our, our own country and the world, that's not something we're seeing. We see people who you know, have very spiteful, hateful reactions to even ideological differences. And so, I think being able to, even if it's a few students at a time, it's enabling someone to have a conversation or see a conversation where we can have very, very passionate differences, but we can still respect each other. And in an ideal place learn from each other. De Maria: Totally. And that also relates back to what you were mentioning regarding diversity and inclusion not being the same thing and not being a package deal all the time. So I can definitely see that importance of inclusion, you know, even if it does lead to those difficult conversations or acknowledging some not so favorable things about our own behavior, things that we've said in the past. Blanshan: Yeah (talking over each other). Yeah. De Maria: So I, I totally get that. In shifting gears a little bit here, I do want to talk about your doctorate. As well as your 2007 dissertation in particular. So that was (a) study of the multicultural awareness of professional residence hall directors in California colleges. And in your own words, I just wanted to know what your findings were. Blanshan: Hmm. Findings were that it, the instrument was a self-support, or self-report survey. So I don't think any person who's done research would tell you what findings are without acknowledging that there are limitations to any method. I think, so within that self-report, what we got back were fairly I would say moderate to high levels of multicultural awareness. And so the notion, if you look at, you know, “Why is that important?” It's a construct by Pope and Reynolds, back in the early two thousands, of a construct of Multicultural Competence in Student Affairs (Advancing Social and Inclusion; book by Raechele L. Pope and Amy L. Reynolds). And so, Pope and Renolds talk about that being multicultural awareness, multicultural knowledge, and multicultural skills. And so that awareness, knowledge of skills has to be there. But awareness of others and awareness of myself, if that's not there, then we're kind of-then we can't get to this place of multicultural competence, which in the dissertation I really argued was an essential aspect to student affairs work because of the diversity of our student bodies. So it was a fairly, like I said moderate to high in terms of the quantitative. I think as I reflect on it, not a surprise, although you know, you never know what you, you don't know what you don't know until you learn it. I probably got just as much out of the sliver of qualitative part of that instrument of learning where people believe their awareness came from. So, was it “I lived abroad as a child.” I think that was a response. There were, and it just, the range because it showed just a different level of reflection of, “What do I think this is? And where do I think this (multicultural competency) came from in me?” I could Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 rate myself highly, but someone else may not agree. Right? So, there's the opportunity for other research of validating this self-report with peer or supervisorial ratings as well. But I think asking people, “Where did that (multicultural competency) come from?” was a really interesting aspect of that. De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And going from there I also wanted to ask you what your relationship was like with Dr. Gregory Toya (current Associate Dean of Students at CSUSM)? In particular I want to know if-- what your involvement was in his study regarding the importance of cultural spaces on college campuses and its relationship to student retention. Blanshan: Right. You see me smiling. I have a very fond place, for Greg. He was--I started as the Associate VP (Vice President), Interim Associate VP and Dean of Students in 2006. Right about March and April of that year, and in June or July Dr. Toya joined as the Associate Dean. And so, he was just a wonderful collegial partner. And I was able to--he started his doctoral program shortly, maybe a couple of years into his time on our campus. He had come from cross-cultural center work. That was his most recent position, before coming to us (CSUSM). And one of the reasons that I was interested in Greg joining our team, and selecting him, was because of that experience. And so, to see him then study that for his dissertation made all kinds of sense in the world. And I appreciated his thought about not only the association of a Cross-Cultural Center on student retention, but I think he also looked at what are some of those aspects of leadership or leaders in Cross-Cultural Centers that contribute to that (student retention). And you know, it was again, not a surprise because one of, to hire people into student affairs work, we typically will ask them to spend better part of a day or sometimes a day and a half with us interviewing on campus. And that typically will involve presentation. And so the presentation he was asked to provide, so I'm going back to 2006 before he even started his doctorate, was to ask him to name a student development theory or framework that he felt he would rely on to do the associate dean job as it was then defined. So he was working with students through student conduct, working through students with students on, students that were considering withdrawing from the university, and some other aspects of what was happening in the Dean of Students Office at the time. And he chose actually one of my favorite frameworks too. It's by Nancy Schlosberg. And I can't spell that out loud for you today, but I can get you the citation. But Schlosberg talks about marginality and mattering, and I don't recall his dissertation well enough, but that's kind of a foundational thing of: if I believe that I matter, then I'm more likely to participate, I'm more likely to persevere when things are really difficult because I matter to the campus, or I matter to someone on campus. As opposed to: if I feel like I don't make a difference at all, and I'm kind of experiencing something from a, you know, I'm experiencing even, not that I even worse than, “I don't make a difference.” But if I'm--if I feel like I'm being marginalized on my campus, then those things are less likely to happen. Those, all those things where we ask, because we're already asking so much of a student who may experience marginalization just to come back to campus day-to-day, let alone go through things that just happen in life when a student's studying for a college degree. And so, I think I was thrilled to work with Greg as he did his doctoral program and his dissertation and remember him, his (dissertation) defense as well. It was, it was a great day. De Maria: That's awesome. And I do have a few more questions left. Blanshan: Sure. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: All relating to the Cross-Cultural Center itself. So my next question, just in general how has the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time? Blanshan: Hmm. Well I think, you know even something, it's a name but I think names are incredibly important. You know, going from Multicultural Programs to Cross-Cultural Center, I think as we started to see more, whether it be services, spaces, organizations kind of become present on campus I think it could focus more on that cross-cultural aspect as opposed to providing a home base for everyone. Not that it shouldn't still be that, I would want any student, and I'm not the only one who would want this, any student to feel comfortable going to the Cross-Cultural Center. But I think some of the work like I was mentioning before, the Activist Lab, some of the space where we really can get into those dialogues across differences and, “What the heck is a dialogue anyway and how is that different than a debate?” You know I think that's, that gives it more space, more programmatic and physical space to be able to do those things. So that's been great to see it (the Cross-Cultural Center) evolve and kind of redefine its role over the last two decades. De Maria: Absolutely. And it's also been very enjoyable for me to hear about the genesis of a lot of these programs, especially as I'm embarking on these interviews and kind of hearing about things that happened, but not necessarily knowing the beginning of that. So, it's definitely a rich history, and I'm also glad it's been around for so long. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: And my last few questions are about the future of the Cross-Cultural Center. But how have your experiences with (the) Cross-Cultural Center impacted you as a professional? And what kind of programs do you see yourself working on as a result of those experiences? Blanshan: You know, I think--I think for me you know, from its, even its inception, it was a kind of a sense, a place of where I could kind of recharge myself. So, because it was a space that was overtly designed for, to be welcoming of people across differences, being welcome of myriad identities. And so, you know just talking about a very personal impact to me is it's a great place to say, “okay, I may be having, maybe it's a difficult day, but you know, I can just stop in and say hello and talk with a staff member.” And especially, you know, early on. And that was, that was a highlight. Like I said, it's been enriching to, you know, years ago participate in some of the retreats or actually some of the training that was offered and partner with different people to do that. I think I still--I enjoy supporting it. I think you know for the past you know, as you think about, as I think about my role as a Title IX Coordinator, and then also someone who oversees the University's response to concerns of discrimination and harassment, I see that as just another function within our stated values to be an inclusive community. And so, it's not directly related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but I think I hold on to initiatives like the Cross-Cultural Center as those initiatives. For example, among our students where we can enable them to feel included rather than, like I was saying before, marginalized which sometimes means that they believe they've experienced discrimination or harassment. I think, so it's all that is very um, it’s just kind of all blended in there. I couldn't, in working at the CSU, so I talked about working at CSUSM and San Diego State, you know spending my entire career at the CSU isn't an accident, for me. It's very much about the mission of the system. And to me that mission has to be informed through the values of Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 inclusion and equity. And so I can't imagine that--I can't imagine being fulfilled by my work if that, if I weren't able to do that. De Maria: Totally. And that's also resonating with me regarding the establishment of the Cross-Cultural Center, kind of being like a manifestation of that mission, as well as like representing future programs that the University's gonna commit to. So, (I) totally get that. Um, going forward, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific spaces on campus? Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. I think it, I think it's a reflection of intersectionality, in one part, right? And it's not to say that our identity centers aren't inclusive of the many identities that are represented within students who go to the Latin@/x Center, or the Black Student Center. So I think we're all, we have many intersections within our, each of us individually. But I think the Cross-Cultural Center being able to look at and potentially unpack some unique areas of historical tension, provide space for if we have student organizations existing on our campus that those communities in our world may be at conflict. How can the Cross-Cultural center help them to kind of find common purpose? Even if they're representing potentially even two warring communities somewhere in the globe. I think (the) Cross-Cultural Center, if you look at it as leadership programs continue to be built out. Whether it's a, even as you, like we talked about the Women's Leadership Symposium and that being very specifically open to everyone, regardless of how a student identifies based on their gender. So being explicitly inclusive of women, men, and all genders that with which students identify, but to understand a unique, some of the historical and then the evolving issues for leadership as informed by experience and socialization based on gender. So I think, you know, that even something that looks, or people may perceive that this is this initiative, this Women's Leadership Symposium is only for women. There is a, there's a space for everyone. And so I think whether that's, you know building on intersectionality that we understand or--and or purposely really creating experiences for cross-cultural -broadly defined -- exchange. I think, you know I think that's where it's going to continue to be essential to our campus. De Maria: Yeah. And it's very inspiring to recognize that there's still room for growth and for change in the (Cross-Cultural) Center, even though it you know has been so successful and so impactful. So obviously, you know people change (laughs), culture and societies change, methods of education change. So, it's awesome to recognize that center can coexist, but also serve a specialized purpose at the same time. Blanshan: Yeah. I think the--expanding the centers that we offer on campus helps give each center potentially a more, I don't wanna say narrow, but more clarified purpose. More focused purpose maybe. But there has to be synergy and a very purposeful, intentional collaboration. So that we can provide what we want to for our students. De Maria: Absolutely. Blanshan: At least I think what we should provide to our students. De Maria: Absolutely. On a different note, what communities do you feel are currently underrepresented on campus? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 Blanshan: I know we have conversation about an American Indian student center. I think we also are in communication about an APIDA center, Asian Pacific Islander (Desi American). So I think those are meeting needs. I think we look at, I know there was a lot of conversation that went into what the center, that into the naming of the center, which is now the Women's and Gender Equity Center. I think the importance of women being explicitly included in the name is important. I think, and I think it's also critical that it's not, I don't wanna say just, that it's not only a Women's Center, because I think we need to also be able to symbolically and programmatically represent the spectrum of gender that we should be affirming in our campus community. I think our student, our student body, our campus community is, it's a microcosm of our world. So, I think there are, could be that, and if you were to look at some of our campus climate studies, you might see that certainly we have disability support services which provide amazing services for our students with disabilities. But do, are, is there more that we could do different from DSS (Disabled Student Services)? Or more like a, whether it's a more social aspect or a sense of belonging. You know, DSS has a very specific role to play, but is there more we could be doing on our campus? I think, I think we continue to grapple, like every campus does across the nation with issues of bias, discrimination, and violence, sexual misconduct, sexual harassment. I think, and I think that's something that we need to keep our eye on in terms of our prevention and education. Those are, experiences like that are often life-changing. And so, you know how do we work our best work to prevent them? And in the event that they're not prevented, how do we make sure that our intervention and our response is as effective as it can be? So, you know I think, and I think we're and every college campus is a human institution. And humans, we’re pretty fallible. And we're it's a, like I said a microcosm of a broader, a broader environment. So, I think there are always ways that we need to be asking the question that you just asked. So who do we, who do we think is experiencing marginalization? And how do we start creating multiple approaches? Because there's, there's not just there will never be a one-size fits all approach to that dilemma. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And that's what leads to those kind of like, difficult, I guess you'd call 'em, conversations about— Blanshan: Absolutely. De Maria: --affecting change and doing the work, basically (De Maria laughs) in order to do that. So, thank you for sharing those thoughts with me. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: And for my final question, I wanted to ask you personally, if someone is interested in pursuing a career in student advocacy or even social justice, what recommendations or tips would you give them? Blanshan: Hmm. That's a great question. I when I think of advocacy and I think of a career in something like social justice, and not a surprise, right? We talked about my educational background. So I think of many things in terms of leadership, right? I think one of the first things to be mindful of is, and I, and this is, this is also true in that little snippet I gave you about multicultural awareness, being an awareness of others, but also awareness of self. I think leadership, especially on something such as social justice, such as advocacy, is (that) it requires a consistent intention. A consistent attention to my own motivations, how I—kind of_where are those things where I find that really feed my purpose, why I want to do this Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 work, and how do I kind of refuel when I've had difficulty. But I think in leadership and in equ--diversity and equity and inclusion work, if we don't always have a mirror back on ourselves so that we could keep ourselves in check, I think it could start, we can, the impact of our work can start to go awry. And I don't know if that makes sense, but I think it's really trying to stay on, what do I think is needed to make positive change. Is this just my thought or have I consulted with others, especially those who disagree with me? To think through what--am I in a blind spot? And then to go out and do the work in a way that we can sustain the work personally and professionally. De Maria: Totally. And I think--I think it does take a community to affect that change. And going back to what you mentioned earlier about diversity versus inclusion, the marriage of those concepts, it requires us to include others and to make those decisions, not just as a sole member, but as a collective. Blanshan: Yeah. I think--I think critical friends are essential. So, yeah I, we always learn more from people who are willing to, I'll speak for myself. I always learn more from people who are willing to say, “I disagree with you, and here's why. And I think you're missing something.” Because that gets me, that stops me before I might do something that might have an impact that completely contradicts what my hope was. So. De Maria: Absolutely. Well thank you for sharing that with us, and that's gonna be the end of this interview. Bridget again, can't say enough how much I appreciate you taking time out for this. I think this is gonna be an excellent resource for anyone interested in the history of the Cross-Cultural Center or just looking for some inspiration in joining the field of student advocacy and social justice. So once again, thank you. Blanshan: Thank you, Michael. It was a pleasure. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2023-11-17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blanshan, Bridget. Interview, April 26, 2023. Description An account of the resource Bridget Blanshan is Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos. In this interview, Blanshan discusses her educational & professional background, student leadership development, and diversity and inclusivity on campus. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bridget Blanshan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-26 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bridget Blanshan License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f49e1fc474b566146db157adf2b4fa32.pdf f3996b4f578fa89be82fa7b47bb89d82 PDF Text Text CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Michael De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I’m a graduate research assistant with Kellogg Library, I'm here today with Chanel Bradley discussing her involvement in the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM (California State University San Marcos), as well as the Black Student Union. So to kick things off, Chanel, I just wanted to ask about your background. I want you to talk about the community that you grew up in and kind of describe what that was like. Chanel Bradley: I grew up in Orange County. I was raised by a single parent, so I moved a lot. And like for example, in high school, I went to two different high schools (laughs). If you don't know about Orange County, it's like predominantly a white county. And we lived in a predominantly white area, so I was normally like one of few that looked like myself. And so I kind of quickly learned what it was like to be, other, and found myself kind of like congregating with other others, (laughs). And that sort of became my community. Typically, I would spend my time with like Latino and like Black students and like even at my church, like, I went to Saddleback until I was about sixteen. I was in the choir, and my grandmother was the choir director. And Saddleback is like a megachurch in Orange County. So she was kind of like a local celebrity (laughs). So like people would know, like, about our family or about her. And so there was a lot of, of colorful acquaintances. But I would say the people that I felt kind of most comfortable with how to share like cultural experience. De Maria: I see. And going forward from there, what led you to attend CSU San Marcos and get involved with the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center)? Bradley: So I was originally gonna go to a school in Florida. And my dad, he didn't want me to leave the state (laughs), so it was more of a forced choice. And so, I applied to other colleges and universities in the state. And I think we ended up picking Cal State (San Marcos) because, of the distance, I think at the time he was living in, Rancho Santa Margarita. And so, it was very easy to kind of like go home on like weekends or something like that. But I actually ended up living in the dorms and so I didn't go home too often, but I started going to the Cross-Cultural Center (laughs), as most college students is motivation is free things (laughs). So the Cross-Cultural Center had free food. And so, my friends and I were always like trying to find the next thing that had free food. So I went to an event, I don't even remember what the event was called. And they had so many like student services, like I could print for free. You know, they had books that I could borrow for classes if I needed to. And, I think for me being multi-ethnic, like I don't really fit into a particular box. And so it was nice to go to a place where like, oh, I can like get like, you know, experiences from all walks of life. So, I think that's kind of what--why I kept coming back. And then I served on the committee. What did I do? (whispers) It's, it's, it's like what, almost 20 years (laughs) ago, so I have to kind of like think about it. But, I remember either like going to the CrossCultural Center director (laughs). I, I was a very adventurous college student, so I got into some trouble. I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 1 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 ended up (laughs) being convicted of a misdemeanor and my last semester of my freshman year, I couldn't finish my exams because I was waiting for trial. So, I think what had happened was I ended up volunteering so that I could gain work experience after that incident that I had. And so, I believe Sara Sheikh had suggested that I assist her with the Social Justice Summit. And so I created some of the marketing material for it. And then, I believe, maybe a year or so after that, I ended up participating on the committee again. And I believe that same year, might have been the same year or maybe, you know, few years after I applied to be a peer educator for the center. So that was kind of like the beginnings of involvement (laughs) with the Cross-Cultural Center. De Maria: Got it. So, it sounds like the CCC just provided a positive space for you to inhabit and kind of rebuild some elements of your life after that incident. Which I think is super, super cool. Regarding the projects that you worked on, I'd love to hear more about the Social Justice Summit, since you were involved in the very first one (Bradley laughs). So, if you could just take me through your experience with that, and just, you know, what, what it was like, what was discussed, and just giving me an image of what all occurred. Bradley: So, I think I remember what happened. I ended up, attending the first Social Justice Summit, as a participant. And I, (laughs) yeah, that's what happened. I remember. Okay. (laughs) I feel like as I'm talking, I'm remembering the timeline. So (laughs), pardon me if I'm like having to go back into the, the files of my brain. De Maria: No, that's, that's good (both Laugh). Bradley: Yeah, so I, I was a participant. I attended the retreat with my boyfriend at the time. And--I would say I've always been like a fairly consciously aware person like, you know, growing up in a predominantly white area, and like knowing that I was not white, was something that I knew. But I think as you--or at least as I grew up, you kind of learn how to adapt in those environments. And so, things that are probably like triggering or, you know, maybe the, not the most like PC thing to say, I would kind of say to fit in or whatever I was doing at the time. So when I went to the Social Justice Summit, it was really eye-opening ’cause they were talking about, like, individual identity. They were talking about oppression and marginalization, which again, like I knew, but I didn't know that it existed, in like different intersects. And--they also talked about like allyship. So I met a lot of people there that I still talk to today. Yeah, that's, that's how I started. And then I think after that, that's when I was on the committee, the planning committee. And I did the marketing and I pretty much just kept continuing to participate with the Social Justice Summit because it was very impactful for me. I think it helped build my activism, if you will. It Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 2 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 gave me...language to talk about my experiences. It gave me like, curriculum to teach other people about how to start their journey or like continue their journey or, you know, come back from taking a rest (laughs) if you will. It exposed me to like a lot of things that were happening on campus, that were unjust. And I, because I had those experiences I felt empowered enough to not just let them happen, but to like speak about them. I developed like lifelong mentors from that summit. I think, if I'm not mistaken, I probably went to like three or four of them. The first one being a participant and the others I was on the committee. And then the, the last one, I ended up--I was a co-facilitator, so. De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And I previously interviewed Sara Sheikh, so she was able to also walk me through, a bit of that experience, but that's awesome hearing your perspective. And then regarding some of the projects that you did for the CCC, you've previously been described by your peers as someone who always got incredible results, but thought outside the box and didn't necessarily play by the rules to achieve those results. So I was just curious in your own words if you had an instance of a project or an objective you achieved where you didn't necessarily play by the rules. Bradley: That's funny. (laughs) I've always been like a really creative person. So--I... I like to see kind of like, what is the baseline? And I'm like, “okay, what, what more can we do from here?” So, we had an event called Cafe La Paz, and it was essentially a way to talk about, different cultural backgrounds and experiences, in an interactive way. And then I believe we served food (laughs). I think all our events we serve food, that's how you get students (laughs), make sure you get a Costco pizza and, and all the desserts and then you will have students. But yeah, so we had to work with, or we were tasked to work with the other centers, so the Women's Center (now Gender Equity Center) and the LGBT Pride Center, LGBTQIA, Pride Center (laughs). And so, I don't remember like the actual identities that we had to talk about, but it was like two or three of them, and we had to find a way to kind of put them together. And, I like to do things where people aren't just like listening to a lecture or watching a movie. I feel like it's, like it works if it's like twenty minutes or something that's short. Like when you get people to move and talk and engage with each other, I feel like that's more impactful to their learning process. So I honestly don't remember the game or what it's called. Oh, yes, I do (laughs). So, it's a game, called mafia and, it basically simulates this like inner and outer group and then, like people who reinforce the system and then, people who are trying to change the system. And so, I found a way to talk about experiences in the community or in classrooms and then incorporate this game that I played with other college students. So, I guess that's a way of being creative and thinking outside the box. I know I definitely broke some rules as far as my attendance goes. (Be)cause my, my, punctuality then was not (laughs) not very good. So I guess that would probably be some ways that I, you know, was a little bit rebellious. But I would say for the most part it was just really my creativity that drove me to, think of things that weren't being done. So like, another example is like when we, I think this might have been--when was this? This might have been like the second or third social justice event that I was on the committee with. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 3 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 And we were like, thinking of names to title it, or what have you. And I'm very simple. Like I don't--I'm not really someone that wants like a word vomit of a title, like make it impactful, how can we say this in the fewest words possible? So I like, took--then they had the RED campaign (division of The ONE Campaign to end extreme poverty and preventable disease by 2030). I don't know if you remember that. De Maria: Um-hm Bradley: It was a RED campaign for Apple or like, for HIV awareness, or something like that. And so in that campaign, they put brackets over the R and the E. So I found a way to like use the word power and then I put brackets around the word, the words W-E So it looks like, like we are the power that we, that we want to, like we have the power, we the people have the power essentially. And so I remember making it, and it was like, the most simple one that I had ever done in all of the designs that I had created. And I believe that same year the registration, like was full by like the end of the day or like the next day. So that was really cool to kind of see how something so simple can intrigue people enough to want to join something that they probably wouldn't normally going to. De Maria: Absolutely. And it's super cool to hear about your art making such a tangible impact as well. Regarding the operation of the CCC again, through my research I've heard several people kind of cite the students as sort of like the lifeblood of the organization. The people who affected change and essentially help those projects get off the ground. So I was just interested in hearing about what your relationships were like with other student staff as well as your superiors? Bradley: So my first two years, ’cause I think I was there for three years, it’s been three years, oh my gosh (laughs). My first couple of years. The person, did he, I think he, I think he was the one that referred for me to apply, or it was Sara (Sheikh). I don't exactly remember. But I have a friend who's like, essentially someone who I've been friends with since then, but his name is Gerardo Cabral or he goes by G now. But G, I met him at that event that I said where I got the free pizza for the first time. I honestly didn't know that it was his event. He tells me later that it was, and I was like, he's like, “Yeah, I remember you coming in.” And (laughs) I don't even remember what I was saying, but I was like, extra, as the word that people would use then. And so when I started working with him, him and I started to develop a closer relationship outside of work. He, I think at the time, like either my car wasn't working or like I had to walk to campus, and I was living off of campus, so he would pick me up like every day. ’cause I was, I wasn't too far from campus, Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 4 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 but it was far enough where, like you didn't want to walk, because as everybody knows, Cal State San Marcos sits on a hill. So (laughs) if you're walking from off campus, and it's already far enough, like you got (to) trek up, a mountainside to get there. And so--and this was before the (University) Student Union, because there were like ways that you can get up without using stairs that I figured out, but the easiest way is to take stairs. But yeah, so became like really close to Gerardo and, I, I, I believe because of like the experience that I had with like the incident that I had my freshman year I really connected with Sara. She like has a very therapeutic presence. And as someone who like experienced trauma young and (laughs) very, very colorful past it was comforting to have a supervisor that didn't really feel like a supervisor. Like she, you know, obviously was my supervisor, but it just felt different. I've never had a supervisor where I connected in that way. So when she left, it, it was a really big hole, like for the whole center because everyone loved her. I mean, they still love her, like I still love her. But like me and G especially were like basically mourning (laughs) her transition. And I think that experience also brought us closer. I was in his wedding, like he's came to all of my graduations, I've gone to his. So we still talk to this day. And my experience with Floyd (Lai, the next director of the Cross-Cultural Center), because I was so connected with Sara, was definitely rocky at first. I was so used to like a certain way, that things were, and then when Floyd came, he didn't necessarily disrupt everything and like change everything. We kind of kept most things, if not all. But I definitely was a little bit taken aback by having to deal with like, a, a power shift, if you will. But Floyd has always been super supportive. And at the time I was also involved in InterVarsity, InterVarsity is a Christian student group on campus. I don't know if they're still there, but I had a mentor there who was telling me, he was like, “You have to be a leader.” Like a 360 leader. Sometimes you have to lead the people that you are, that are supposed to lead you. Not to say that Floyd didn't lead me, it was just like, because he was a new person, he kind of came to me with like, “Okay, what information do you have? What knowledge do you have? Do you have background information about this event or that?” And so I kind of felt like I was in a way his little guide. And so that was new for me. I'd never been in a position where people are looking at me for answers. So I think it helped me develop my leadership skills as a result. And also be able to reconcile relationships too. So, some of the other like staff that I work with, I still touch base with every once in a while, but--like when was it? Was it the 25th anniversary? I don't remember. But there (laughs), there was a, what was it, third year? I don't remember. But I went to an event and I came back to campus after graduating and I ran into Allie Moreno, I think she has a different last name now, but Allie Moreno I also worked with. And she was there at the event, so I got to reconnect with her. Same thing with Diana (Salidvar). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 5 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 I'm bad with names, so I apologize. Diana, I believe, is her name. I still like connect with her through social media, so I--it's, it's like, a very unique time in your life when you're like, “I'm an adult,” but also like, you're still learning. You're still learning how to be an adult, you're still learning how to function in the world. You have to take care of yourself. Like, I had to, you know, get a job and I couldn't really rely on my parents to help me out of situations (laughs) if you will. So I had to learn how to be resourceful. And I think the Cross-Cultural Center gave me the resources among other, you know services that I used on campus to survive and thrive there. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. One comment on that, I will second Sara Sheikh's, therapeutic nature (both laugh). She's, she's definitely an incredible person. And, yeah, it definitely sounds like when you were able to kind of inhabit that role as sort of like a guide for the others in the center, it sounds like you kind of reached a point of pride and were able to kind of reflect in your accomplishments and just some of the things that you had done. Which I also think is super cool. Now that I've kind of jogged your memory a little bit from those experiences, I want to know what your favorite memory of the Cross-Cultural Center is. Bradley: (laughs) It's very simple. Like I--the, the one thing that my dad taught me was that you can change an atmosphere just by stepping into the room. And so I would be very big on atmosphere, or ambiance if you will. My friends and I call it am-Beyonce (laughs), like, because Beyonce has that, that energy and aura to her too. And so what I would do when I would be working my shift is I would play music that I enjoyed, and then I would ask students like, “What do you wanna listen to?” So I would kind of like be a DJ, like a little bit (laughs). So I enjoyed just creating a welcoming space for them to come in. And I've had students--and in a way I sort of became like a therapist come to me like stressed out about something and they are looking for advice or guidance, or just like helping individuals who are coming in trying to figure out like, “Oh, what's this place?” (laughs) You know? So I think that was probably my favorite part of working at the Cult--Cross-Cultural Center, was just creating that space for students. De Maria: Very cool. I definitely understand that impact of ambiance, so it's definitely nice that you were able to be a little selfless in a way and kind of provide that, that atmosphere like you mentioned. And shifting gears here, I know that you had a heavy involvement in the Black Student Union on campus as well. You're cited as being an individual who essentially revived that organization or had a very big hand in reviving it from inactivity. So just starting there, I want to know what that timeline looked like and how you got involved in that project as well. Bradley: Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 6 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 So I was in BSU (Black Student Union) my freshman year, and it was pretty active then. We had a good amount of members. They--I would say maybe a majority of them were like upperclassmen. And so, I think I also served on the board my second year and that's when the president Charey or Trey stepped down and then Raja stepped up. He had a lot of great ideas and he is a really good leader. I think it's just really hard when you're--like imagine having to be the next head, like performance after like Patti LaBelle (laughs). You're like “How do I top that (laughs)?” So I think it was some of that that happened with Raja, but he did a really good job at getting a lot of the structural things that organizations need. Like they need bylaws. They need to define their roles. They need recruitment efforts. They need to have like good soil to be able to grow. After Raja graduated, because he was also upper class, I think he ended up graduating before myself, maybe a couple years before me. So a lot of those upperclassmen that made up a lot of the BSU moved on. And so it was just like the underclassmen that kind of had to step up. I think there were like, if I'm not mistaken, a couple of attempts where students tried to revive it and then it just became inactive. I don't know how long the inactive period was, but I think during that time I was doing a lot of on-campus like protests. I was doing a lot of things with the Cross-Cultural Center. I was leading Bible studies. I was, also going to school, working, like I was doing a lot. And I think it was my Women's Studies professor, I think at the end of my like sophomore year and she was like, “What are you gonna do about BSU?” I'm like, “What do you mean (laughs)? Like, it's not my job (laughs).” And I think another Women's Studies professor was like, “You should try to get that organization going again.” And I was like, “Okay” (laughs). I work with a lot of student organizations when I was a peer educator. So I'm like, okay, I see how they do things. I know all the background information. I know who to talk to at, Student Life and Leadership so that I can try to expedite things if I need to. I know where to go with ASI (Associated Student Inc.) like being a student worker really exposes you to a lot of like the administrative side of a university. So I got to be able to experience that. So when I stepped into that role, I already had all those resources. And I knew a lot of students, so they knew who I was. And so when I started, I had enough members to make the organization active, which I believe is three. You need a secretary, a vice (president) and a president. We talked extensively during the summer about like, who's going to take up what role, and what are we gonna do and how are we gonna do things? And kind of, things like that. I originally, I believe was just gonna be a vice president, another student wanted to be president. And I'm like, I have no ties to any role. My only objective is to make this organization active again. And I think it was the week or two before classes started, both of them dropped out. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'll figure this out because I'm resourceful. So, I just started reaching out to every student that I knew. I'm like, you remember when BSU was like, and all this stuff? And just trying to--and even new students, I was like, “You look like a leader!” I was just heavy, heavy with my Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 7 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 recruitment until I finally got two people to be in the role of vice president and treasurer. And then I was able to go to Josh at the time who was like overseeing student organizations. (laughs). I'm like, okay, “I have all the paperwork (laughs), like can we be active now?” And then it was definitely really rocky. It was, it was really rocky, because at the time I was like, I'm just trying to get us back into a place where we have presence on campus cause we're here, like Black students are here, they're just not collectively coming here. And so I also, at the same time, I'm honestly, I don't know how I did all these things, but at the same time (laughs) while I was in, in InterVarsity, they have like a Black student body as well within that, that organization. And so I was working with Black Student Unions at other campuses. I was like, let me see how you all do this because your group is so big. And then I'm like, okay, well instead of trying to motivate these students who are like, I don't want to go (laughs), I'm gonna work with these students who already have the--already energized about meeting together about, you know, centering Black narrative and who want to move that forward. So we attempted to do like events together. So, I feel like a lot of people get F.O.M.O (Fear Of Missing Out), so I'm like, if I make the event cool enough and bring enough people, they're gonna want to come. And so I did a lot of that, and I designed the logo. I fixed the bylaws and I worked a lot with other students because I was like, I think this was like my, ‘cause this was my senior year, I had to do all of this my senior year, graduate, you know, look for a job, all those things. And so I kind of searched for the next presidents. I was like, “Hey, you have the potential. Come with me to this event, I think you would benefit from it.” And I invested time in their development, like, not to pressure you, but I am leaving (laughs) so, it would be great if someone could step into these roles. And so I remember my last year and no one really what was stepping up and I was like, I just have to leave it and hope that it works out. So I went to my mentor, Roger, who at the time was the director of the LGBT Center and I was like, “Can you do me a favor?” (laughs) Can you, because he's an agitator, he, he will make sure like something gets done. So I was like, “Can you please make sure that someone steps up? Cause I'm, I'm graduating, like I can't do any more past this.” So yeah, that was, that was a lot (laughs). De Maria: Yeah. It definitely sounds like you, kind of once again used out of the box style thinking to try and ensure the future of the organization and the health of the organization, which is definitely, definitely needed (laughs) in situations like that. Regarding the relationship between those organizations and just in general on our campus, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these different organizations devoted to identity expression? Like, what kind of role do you think it inhabits and still inhabits? Bradley: Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 8 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 So, I don't remember the name of it, but my friend G was trying to start like a council for all like, multicultural student organizations to meet--to board leaders to meet together and be able to have a space to discuss issues or concerns or what have you together like a, quasi-United Nations (laughs), if you will. So I think that was the first time I kind of saw the way that the Cross-Cultural (Center) can collaborate, and empower, and equip student organizations to not only self-express, but also to address matters that are important for them. Or how to just really have representation. Because I think that was really important. Like, for me, coming from a place where there wasn't that growing up, like I remember (laughs), I remember going to the Career Center on campus and there was this--stand and repeat, and it had a Black student on it. And then I don't remember what the language was underneath it, but it basically implied as what I had interpreted of it, was that like, Black students aren't gonna get employed, something like that. And I was like, “You have to change that.” (laughs) That's not gonna work. Like, that's not gonna bring Black students in here. You need to show them, themselves in the careers that they want, because they're out there. There are successful people of color. And so--I mean, same thing with like posters around campus. I'm like, “Who made that? There's not enough people that look diverse enough for that to be representing our campus.” So yeah I think it, it, it equips and empowers, not only like the board members on those--because like we had free printing. The Student Life and Leadership Center had a place where you could make a-frames, like you could make the materials that you need. Like you didn't have to do everything out of pocket. And especially for marginalized, you know minority groups. Sometimes money is not something that you have to just make materials for. I remember (laughs) the biggest thing for like, I feel like students tend to get behind is like, “Do I get a T-shirt (laughs)?” If you have swag for them, they're like, “Yeah, I'll definitely show up.” So I was like, we need to get T-shirts for Black Student Union. And because I was a student, because I worked, or you know, worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and I knew the resources they had available, I was like, “I know what website to make it on. I can order them. I can have them, have it done. I know where to go to get scholarships for our group.” So I think, that is what's really like, special about that relationship with, you know, centers who work with student organizations. De Maria: Yeah, totally. That's super cool. I heard on swag, that is definitely a great way to get, to get people in through the door and get your message heard, funnily enough. My next set of questions and the, the questions that we'll kind of wrap up on are a little bit more abstract. So I just wanted to ask you how your experiences with Cross-Cultural Center, as well as Black Student Union on that note, impacted your professional path and what you currently do? Bradley: So I'm, I'm sort of in a career transition space, so I wouldn't necessarily say that those experiences impacted my profession. I would say they impacted me personally and my politics. I think it opened my Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 9 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 eyes to a lot of different things, organizations, what people are doing in the community and it motivated me to serve the community in a different way. Right after college, I ended up going on a missions trip in Fresno, and seeing poverty in a different way. And I also worked with Inner City Youth in Escondido as well as here in Central San Diego. So I think it definitely shaped my passion for development. And I guess in some ways I still sort of do that in my role now. But my job I would say is, more like financially driven decisions versus passions and what sort of shaped me there. But after--I believe it, after (George) Floyd was murdered? I think it was during the pandemic like, 2020, when that whole bit happened. I mean I was going to protests before then. Like I went to the Women's March, I went to some other protests as well. I even brought some of my students (laughs). I was like, “This is what a protest is.” And so when that happened in the pandemic, it just, it's hard because it's like wrapped around tragedy, you know, these things that are so unjust that it, (laughs) I was telling my therapist that I have like an--eloquent rage. Like I want (laughs) to do things in a certain way that will affect change in the system that's already existing. Sometimes I do want to be very radical, but also I just don't want like Black people to keep dying, you know? And so I actually ended up kind of getting my boyfriend at the time into that too. I think he had always been like into it, but the way that he would protest is virtually. And I'm like, come see what it's like grassroots. Because It's a different feeling. And so we went in our cars, and we went up to like La Jolla and came back to central San Diego and then went all the way down to National City as a protest. And there was like hundreds of cars, it was all over the news. We had made posters. It was like a huge thing. And I feel like, that moment kind of reminded me of when I was at the Social Justice Summits and watching someone's lightbulb turn on almost like, oh wow, like this is what it, what it's like, l being in solidarity with other, with others and wanting the change that we need. We don't want individuals to be brutalized and murdered by individuals that we thought we could trust to keep us safe, you know? And so I get, I get chills thinking about it. I remember there was one student, he was like, “How can you just get up there and like, speak on the mic and not be afraid?” And I'm like, “I am afraid!” I'm very afraid, but I also don't want this to happen anymore. It's not okay. And so I would rather be afraid and find the courage to get through it, than be afraid and do nothing. De Maria: Absolutely. And I'm sorry, it's just super profound (laughs) super profound things that you're talking about. And also just so much value in being able to relate those experiences back together. And also, again, tangibly seeing results from, your own efforts make--be them personal or professional. So very, very cool. Just a few more questions left. What direction do you think the Cross-Cultural Center should grow in? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 10 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Bradley: I visit like maybe every, two or three years (both laughs). So I don't know what the last three years have been because I, the la--I think the last time I went to campus was like maybe (20)17 or (20)18. So it's been a while since I've been there. And it's a different, it's a different vibe than how it was when I was there. We were like a smaller center, you know, we didn't have this beautiful (University) Student Union. We had the Commons, and if anyone knows what the Commons are, there were these small little rooms, (laughs) that we just made work, you know? And they would be filled with students. And so I remember seeing the blueprints of this Student Union. And for me, I'm just like, “This is awesome!” I feel like I was, you know, part of the building blocks of this, and I'm just honestly proud of how things have evolved. I will say (laughs) the, this is maybe not necessarily like the Cross-Cultural Center, but I've heard that the parking permits there are ridiculous. Like, for passes, like I go, I, I got my master's at University of San Diego, their annual passes are under a hundred dollars. And so to have a parking pass that's $600 or something like that, I was like, that's wild. If I was there, I'd be protesting about it. This is ridiculous. Like, what are you, let me see your (laughs), let me see your expenditure sheets, let me see your multi-year budget plans, because this doesn't make sense, like it should not be that expensive. I really don't know what the student activism looks like. You know, I know that when I was there that a lot of people kind of saw the Cross-Cultural Center as like a Pan-Asian space, because that's kind of a lot of the students that would come to that space. And so when I was there, I was like, I want to see everybody (laughs). I want to go and like find where you guys are and let you know, this is here, like MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan) come over, you know, Black students come over. I'd be like, “Okay, what movie do you want to see? (laughs) I'm about to put it on the TV. You know, like make you feel comfortable. So yeah, I think that's kind of something that was needed then. I don't know what it's like now. I know when I kind of like popped in it's--there was mostly Asian students there, but you know, I think as long as students are using the space, I think that's what matters most. That's what it's there for. I think it's great that you know, peer educators can, I don't know if they're doing this now, but when I was there, I would go into classrooms and I would teach curriculum to students about identity and allyship. So I hope that they're still doing stuff like that because there are situations where I--where it impacts the world, it impacts, you know, that, that macrocosm. And in turn we, you know, sometimes professors don't know what to say and some of those students might be having a hard time being present, learning about, I don't know, whatever subject, like microorganisms, (laughs), you know what I mean? And so how can you as a professor tie in like what's going on in the world to address it, but also like be there for the students in a way that, you know, maybe is not necessarily like a savior complex, but in a way that's supportive. Like “I see you, I see that, you know, this could be something that, you may or may not be noticing in life or affected by, but there's this place where you can go,” or like bringing in those students to those classrooms. And nothing against the hard sciences. We love math, we love science. But you know, sometimes those spaces are very black and white and the Cross-Cultural Center lives in a gray space. And so to be able to show students that and help them with identity development, because like I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 11 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 said, college is such a unique time. You’re a quasi-adult, but not really. And you have to take on all these responsibilities in addition to graduating. So. De Maria: Yeah. Absolutely. My next question, and again this is going to kind of reference the current landscape of CSUSM. So don't worry if you can't think of like a super accurate answer or anything. You can also comment about the time, like around the time that you graduated and moved on. But what communities do you feel are underrepresented on campus? Bradley: Hmm... I don't really know. I know like when I was a student... so, I know I, I definitely got involved with like undocumented students ’cause that experience was something that I personally didn't have like experience in. But I had a friend, several friends, who were undocumented. And I remember going to Social Justice Summit and having that lightbulb. And we were talking about undocumented students and I was like, “Oh my God.” Like I drove one of my friends who I know is undocumented and I didn't have like (laughs), this is again, me living rebelliously. I was driving, and my license plate was expired or something like that? And I was like, “Oh my gosh.” If I had gotten pulled over and this police officer wasn't chill, I could have endangered my friend. And so, I think it grew my like empathy for that community. I remember their group was like, sort of active, sort of not, at the time when I was a student. I think MEChA-DeMaria: Um-hmm. Bradley: Is such a big organization like nationally that sometimes the undocumented experience kind of becomes adjacent to that. So one of the friends that I was referring to, I believe she served in a leadership role for, I don't remember what the name of that undocumented student organization was, but I remember her talking about that and kind of trying to differentiate that group as a result. I also have another friend that I still talk to today. She created an organization called Et Cetera. And her whole goal was to be a catchall for the others. Like you're not really feeling like a certain cultural identity. Like maybe you don't want to be in the math group, like maybe you don't want to be in a fraternity, like come to Et Cetera (laughs). And so I thought that that was really cool that she wanted to create a space for individuals who either like myself live in like a duality, or others who just maybe don't identify in a particular space. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 12 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 De Maria: Totally. I have two questions left to just wrap things up. So first one, what is the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with the Cross-Cultural Center? Bradley: There were so many lessons (both laughs). Definitely difficult to pick one. I think I, I, I learned my power. And at that time I learned a, that I had power and leadership potential, but also that how to use it, in a way that would affect change. Like I remember when--I hope that this tabloid paper doesn't exist on that campus anymore. Because If it does, I'm driving (laughs) to make sure it's not there. But--they, it was called The Koala. The Koala also existed on I think UCSD (University of California San Diego), but basically it was a tabloid paper, and they would just write, just excuse my language, but like, bullshit about people, about groups, about minority groups. And they're like, “Oh, but it's satire.” And I'm like, “This still doesn't make it okay.” I was such an agitator to them that they put me in one of their editions. And so I remember noticing that this was not okay, you know, me stepping into my power and then I protested by myself. I was like, I'm gonna stand next to you. I'm not gonna say anything, but I'm gonna hold this sign up, and I'm gonna stand next to you, so that other people understand that this is not okay and that you shouldn't be passing this out on campus. And like my friends were like coming up to me and they're like, “Oh my gosh, like you are so awesome for doing this." And I connected with other campuses and I'm like, “What are you guys doing about this (laughs) paper?” Because you know, such and such. And then I remember other people kind of in solidarity doing other things to expose the students and who are doing these salacious things, like who the editor was (laughs). They wrote it on the steps, like the steps that are next to the clock. They wrote the names of all the members in the organization. This person is in it and this person is in it and they want to hide, but (laughs), they're not gonna hide. We're gonna bring them to light. They actually bit their--put their own shoe in their mouth. But I think the editor attempted to run for ASI president. De Maria: Right? Bradley: And if he had accomplished his goal, that paper would've been basically passed out, like how the Cougar News (student newspaper) gets passed out. But he ended up (laughs) fraud, like basically doing identity theft and faking votes so that he could win. So I was like, “Well, not only did you lose, but you also are gonna have to be prosecuted for like 500 counts of identity theft.” And that's a federal offense (laughs). So I think it was a mixture of, you know, stepping into my power, but also knowing that I have, like I have a cap, I have a battery, at some point my battery is gonna go down and I need to recharge. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 13 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 So I think that was another lesson that I learned, was like how to recharge, how to self-preserve. Because I know there were times that I was doing a lot of things. And even just thinking about it, I was like, “That sounds like a lot like (laughs). When did you have you time?” I remember there was a point where I had stopped making such a fuss about that paper, and there was a student who was doing a class project where they were interviewing people about that paper. And I was like, I wrote in the comments, I was like, “Don't stop agitating, keep going.” So even in my time of preservation, I was still encouraging others to develop their power and what they found to be important for them. De Maria: Yeah. So comments on that. That's a really crazy intense story. And also just on a personal level, I'm glad that you were there to be the initial agitator essentially. And you know, just, affect that change, like how you said. So that's definitely a demonstration of power (laughs) used responsibly and for a good end. Bradley: Yeah. De Maria: Which is very, very cool. For my final question, I want to relate back to something you said at the very beginning of the interview. You described feeling like an other in your community growing up in Orange County. So, I just would like to know, as someone who has also felt like an other growing up in a community, if someone feels that way, what tips or advice would you give them to start agitating or get involved in social justice? Bradley: I mean--I feel like my experiences as an other sort of like, I describe it like a butterfly, because I am like-ambiguous (laughs) physically and mentally. I just kind of butterfly my way through groups and I learn from all those experiences. So being an other doesn't necessarily have to define you into the other box. It can give you capacity to be in every box. I remember my sister for those demographic questions where they're like, “What race are you?” And she was like, “I just check all of them!” (laughs) So in a way you just check all of them. You can go into this group, you can go into that group and people would welcome me, like regardless. So that was like really nice, to experience. But also I think-- I don't know if every school campus has like a Social Justice Summit type of thing, but I honestly think that something like that definitely informs the way that you develop in your social justice identity or your social justice, activism. But honestly, you could, just join a march, like when they had the Women's March or I think there was another march for all of the like school shootings that were happening that were student led. Just being a part of grassroots organizations can shape that activist part in individuals Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 14 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 as well as shaping identity, you know. But I think what I noticed in school (laughs) is when you learn about other cultures, especially in American history, it's terrible. They don't really put you into this really wonderful light. It's like genocide, slavery, and then President Obama (laughs). And you're like, okay--but where's all the in between? And so, you know, even just having literature, I would hope you know that the Kellogg Library has a lot of options, but I had friends who gave me literature that helped me to develop that part of myself and to see--people who looked like me that were successful, but also people who were affecting change. Who were women, who were, you know, minority groups, who were young. I think for me, growing up in a single parent household, you want to, or at least for me, I wanted to see a strong woman and like my grandma, she's definitely a part of my strong personality, but also it's like different when it's not your mom. And so for me, I was like looking for that maternal figure and so I found it a lot in supervisors, or professors, and I was like, that's the kind of woman that I want to be, who doesn't just sit and let things happen but will be willing to stand up for what I believe in. De Maria: I think that's excellent advice. And again, just, a manifestation of taking pride in your identity rather than allowing that box or that label to define you or your actions, even if those actions are advantageous to social justice. So I completely get that. Bradley: Yeah De Maria: And with that, I know that we're at time. So I just wanted to thank you for taking the time out for this interview, Chanel. We definitely covered a lot, in terms of your personal experience, and I also learned a lot more about the CCC as I continue to interview more people for this project and kind of embark on this journey myself. So overall, just wanted to thank you for opening up and allowing others to be part of that experience and kind of understand what you went through and what you did. Bradley: Yeah, definitely. Well, if you want any contacts for other people--who to interview or if you have enough, that's cool too. (Both laugh) If you want some of the OGs, (De Maria laughs) I still talk to them. De Maria: Absolutely. We'll talk offline, but (both laugh) Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 15 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Bradley: Yeah. De Maria: Thank you so much Chanel Bradley: You’re welcome, okay. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 16 2023-10-06 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bradley, Chanel. Interview transcript. April 14, 2023. Description An account of the resource Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity related causes on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer educator at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the unauthorized student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chanel Bradley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Geneva Martinot Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Civil rights Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos Education, Higher Human rights Minorities in higher education Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Chanel Bradley Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14_transcript Activists and activism Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f91f84e4831ca55340c80edba7503653.pdf bcf9238ee0a2132eaf9eae864a9bed04 PDF Text Text TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Julia Friedman: Today is Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, at 9:58 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Tanis Brown for the University Library Special Collections Oral History project. Tanis, thank you for being here with me today. Tanis Brown: Oh, thank you. Hang on just a minute. I have to—all right. Friedman: Perfect. I would like to start by discussing your early days in the city of San Marcos, California. Why did you first move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, I first came to San Marcos in 1976 in the kind of summertime. We moved to San Marcos from Escondido. Friedman: And why did you move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, my husband and I had kind of outgrown our house in Escondido and we were looking—he was looking for a little more yard space so he could start to garden. And so, we were looking for a little bit larger house with a little more backyard. Friedman: And what were your first impressions of the city? Brown: Well, when we were looking at houses, I can remember my husband telling the realtor, “I'm not sure we want to live in San Marcos. It's kind of the boonies, isn't it?” And, at that time, San Marcos was certainly not the city it is today. It was a lot more rural. Many, many mobile home parks, about twelve if I remember correctly. Only four to five elementary schools and we had two children in school, so we were looking for, you know, a close-by school and again. So, taking some choices about, well, do we want a little bit bigger yard or do we want to stay in a more developed city, like Escondido? And I'm certainly glad that we opted to move to San Marcos. Friedman: That's great. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: How did you first become involved in the community of San Marcos during your first years in the city? Brown: Okay, so, right after we moved to San Marcos, I enrolled in an early childhood development course at Palomar college. I had been teaching preschool for a number of years and the first night of class, the teacher said the city of San Marcos is looking for a preschool teacher for their Raggedy Anne and Andy Program, which was very popular. It was expanding at that time. And so, I went the next day and put in an application and ended up getting a job with the city right away within the first couple of months. And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that worked for the city. Our location was where San Marcos City Hall is now, but the building was the red barn that is now located at Walnut Grove Park, that was where all the city recreation programs were hosted out of. That was the main office for our park and recreation program. So, I started working for the Raggedy Anne and Andy Program and was able to meet a lot of people that worked for the city at that time. And that was kind of our first introduction. And because we were such a small community, a couple of the city council people had their children enrolled in our ragged Anne and Andy program. So immediately, I met two or three city council people and through their children. So that's kind of our quick introduction. And I remember thinking, “Oh my gosh, I grew up in San Diego. I never ever knew anybody who's elected to anything.” Transcribed by Julia Friedman 1 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 And here we are, serving, the city council members’ children. So, it was a very close connection to the local government. Friedman: Have you remained within those organizations? Brown: Yes. So, in addition, I only were worked for the city for about a little bit over a year because, we lived overseas shortly after that, but when I came back, I had already been familiar with the park and recreation program. So, I applied to be a commissioner for the park and recreation program, which is an advisory commission for the city of San Marcos, overseeing the parks and recreation. And I was appointed to that and it was a perfect timing because the city was growing quite a bit and we were developing new parks. So, we went from three parks to eight parks to twelve parks, and I ended up sitting on that commission for over twenty years. So, it was really a great time to watch the city not only develop, but also plan for open space, parks, trails, that kept up with the development of additional housing. Friedman: That's wonderful. Oh my goodness. So, you really saw the city expand in just your first few years in San Marcos. And then shortly after, you enrolled in Cal State San Marcos [California State University San Marcos]. You were among the first class to enroll in 1989. Why did you decide to attend the university? Brown: (laughs) Well, my other--one of the other hats that I have worn for many years is the San Marcos Historical Society. And through that organization, I got to be involved with the Chamber of Commerce. We had a reciprocal agreement and I was attending a lot of Chamber events, and I was lucky enough to meet Richard Rush, who was the Dean of the North San Diego campus at that time. And he kept talking about, you know, they were going to have, well at one point, it was going to be a San Diego State satellite campus up in North County. And, you know, just a lot about that. So, I got to know him fairly well. And then, in 1989, when San Marcos was going to be the host city for the university, I thought, “Well, I better get in on the ground floor of this.” So, I applied to go take all my many, many undergraduate units and apply them towards a degree. All my kids were now in school. Perfect timing. So, I applied to go to be in the first graduating class of Cal State San Marcos. So, it was wonderful. And I can remember in my first--one of my first classes on the first day, Dick Rush came in and waved, sat and waved out the window. So it was, it was like, “Oh, this is great, this feels like home.” So, it was--it was very comfortable. Friedman: Oh, that's wonderful. Because I understand that the original campus was a storefront property while the permanent one was being built across town. Can you discuss what it was like attending CSUSM [California State University San Marcos] during those early days as a university? Brown: Yes, we called it Cal State Jerome’s [CSUSM was located near to a Jerome’s furniture store] and we were in industrial park and, there were very few classes. I remember we didn't have a full compliment of majors like we do now. And the first several years of campus life were only upper-class juniors and seniors, as well as teaching programs. So, we had only upper division classes and every semester there were only so many classes for each department. So pretty much everybody who was in one class was in all your classes together, depending on what your major was. So, we really got to know one another and there was a lot of camaraderie between the faculty, the students, the staff, because we were all about the same age. The average age of students in the first few years of Cal State San Marcos was thirty-nine years old. So, you can imagine that, we--some of us were older than our faculty Transcribed by Julia Friedman 2 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 members, our professors, and certainly had a lot of a local experience. But most people, it was most certainly a commuter campus. There wasn't much campus life. Friedman: What did you major in? Brown: Well, I was an English major with a minor in women's studies. Friedman: That's great. And how many students were enrolled in your cohort, or in your class? Brown: I think our first graduating class was between ninety and ninety-five, something like that. So, we all fit in Craven Circle, in three rows of chairs, just about. Friedman: I was actually expecting it to be a little smaller, but that's actually really interesting. Could you elaborate a little more on the comradery amongst your classmates? Kind of like, what was the culture like in general within your cohort? Brown: Well, like I say, most students were, you know, adults who have lots of other stuff going on. Most people were working, or parents, or involved in community activities or especially jobs. We were all [reentering]--most of us were reentry students. And so, in addition to taking classes, we had other things going on in our lives. So, it was a little bit challenging. I know when we started to try to talk about having student groups and all that. But once again, we--there was a deli in the industrial park called the Full Belly Deli. A lot of people would go there for lunch if they were able to be on campus for a whole day. Usually people came and went. It was very kind of a drive-by campus if you will, you know. People were there because there were not gathering places. So, we did try. We had powwows. Bonnie Biggs, who was the dean of the library at that time, brought in a lot of musical performances and it was really enriching and exposed us to a lot of, you know, great music. And like I say, we were involved with the Native American tribal community in the North County and so we hosted a powwow. So those were things that were also included as part of our school requirements to, you know, get involved in these international things that were going on campus. Friedman: That's great. And from what I understand, there were already some student organizations established on campus, such as ASI--? Brown: Well, no, the first year, Dr. Ernie Zomalt who's the Executive Vice President and Sandy Punch, who was doing student affairs, really helped form the first group for an election for the first Associated Students. And I had just had a conversation with Charles Ragland who is one of the former ASI presidents back in the early years. And, the first couple of years we did have the Associated Students, but it wasn't an incorporation, it was just a campus organization. We did vote and we did actually vote for some student fees. But yeah, so we did have an election and I was on the first Associated Students group and we did a lot of the heavy lifting of bylaw writing and that kind of thing, as well as trying to establish some kind of connection between students and trying to encourage them to think about imposing fees that would not necessarily impact them at all, but would impact the future of the university. Friedman: Thank you for clearing that up. Brown: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 3 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: That's really interesting. And then as I understand it, you later became an employee a few years after graduating at CSUSM. Can you explain those roles that that you worked at CSUSM? Brown: Sure. So, after I graduated, I went to work for a social service agency in Vista Lifeline Community Services. And I was a grant writer there for about a year and a half. In the meantime, the campus had grown and were about to launch a (laughs) full four-year student body. And so, all of a sudden housing was needed. And because of my relationship with, you know, kind of the community, I had a lot of access to, you know, where to rent an apartment or this and that. I knew a lot of community members, my, you know, just community contacts. And so, I applied for a job with the university to be a Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President's office. So, I went back and worked part-time, doing special projects. And then that job got extended to fifty percent of also housing and trying to not only help faculty members find housing, but also to help students find housing. And then actually starting the first housing program at Cal State San Marcos. So that was that became a bigger and bigger job (laughs) because we didn't have a facility. So, we had to go out and find housing. We had to find suitable housing for a group of students so that we could, you know, kind of cluster them together and create opportunities that would be quasi student life. And it was, it was a very interesting endeavor. (laughs) Friedman: It's important though. From what I understand, you also were involved in HR for many years and in the Retirees Association. Could you explain a little bit about your roles in those departments as well? Brown: Sure. So, I moved over to Human Resources as the Training Coordinator and my job was to provide training opportunities for staff and also develop a new employee orientation. So, I had the really fun job in Human Resources. I was kind of known as the “cheerleader” because in addition to training opportunities, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was at the end of every year, we would do an employee recognition. This was before they had employee the month or anything like that. So once a year we would have an event that would recognize employees for their years of service. And just to, you know, just to thank employees for being on campus. In the early years, people moved around a lot just because of the growing campus. And so, there was a lot of expectation that don't get too used to the office that you're sitting in because six months now you may be moving to another office down the hallway. So, it was just a way to recognize, and I think the, you know, all the managers and leadership at the university really recognized how so many of the employees got called on to do things that they never expected to do when they were hired, just because we were a new campus and something new would come up and we just have to do it. And, we were very limited in staff. We didn't have three or four people in an office, but it was great. People enjoyed one another. And I have wonderful friends that I made at Cal State San Marcos, and it's carried over to the Retirees Association as well. So, and the other thing I loved about my job with orientation is that I got to meet everybody that was a new employee at the campus. So, I was kind of the face of HR, I believe, for many years, in terms of, you know, within their first couple of weeks of work, they were going to spend a day with me and I was going to kind of show the ropes of Cal State San Marcos. Later on, a lot of my job required a lot of compliance training as well, sexual harassment, and a lot of things like that in addition to the kind of enrichment training. Friedman: Well, thank you. So much of what you did as a student and as an employee at CSUSM seemed to involve community on campus. How did you see the CSUSM community develop over time? Brown: Are you talking about the campus community? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 4 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Brown: Okay. Well, I visited campus yesterday and we walked through the dome and in the olden days, the dome was the only really gathering place on campus. So, if you worked in Craven Hall you had to walk through the dome from the parking lot and so you pass through it, it was the place that you could eat your lunch. And usually you'd always see somebody you knew in the dome. So, there were those opportunities to make friends. And some of the employees at actually were also taking classes while they were working at Cal State San Marcos. So, it was an opportunity for just meeting and getting to know one another. But, you know, I still get that same feel just when I've been on campus other times that, people are anxious to help, they are anxious to reach out. And even the President was pretty accessible when I was there. You know, Dr. Haynes was primarily the longest serving President when I was at Cal State San Marcos and she'd be out and about on campus. And, it was, it was really great to see, you know, to know that the President was walking around, seeing what was going on as well. So, and I still get that feeling that there's a lot of opportunity for meeting and greeting it at the university. Friedman: That's wonderful. I would like to jump ahead now, or I suppose, change topics. You had mentioned that when you were a student at Cal State San Marcos, you were already involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. When did you first become involved in the organization? Brown: Well, as I mentioned early on, we moved to San Marcos and within the first eighteen months, my husband had an opportunity to go overseas and teach at a military facility. So, we moved to Germany. We rented out our house and bundled up our family and moved to Germany for two years. And while I was there, I was not working. And so, I just fell in love with history. And there, you know, Europe is a little bit older than Southern California (laughs), and I just really latched onto history. And within about a month of us coming back and getting resettled into our house, I was walking in the neighborhood and realized that we had a historical house at the top of a hill, not far from where I live and it was being vandalized. So, I contacted the city and I said, “Somebody needs to do something about this, because we don't have very many historical houses in San Marcos.” What's, you know, who owns it and trying to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, the city manager at the time recommended that I contact the Historical Society and they could tell me a little bit more the house, but in the meantime, they were going to check it out and they did follow up and say, “Oh, the house has just been purchased and they are planning to renovate it.” So, that was a good opportunity for something good to happen. But I did visit the Historical Society shortly after that and was privileged to meet several families of, you know, descendants of the pioneer families that lived here in San Marcos. So, I don't know all the old timers but kind of the second generation of old timers. And I just was amazed at the, you know, what a small town San Marcos had, but what a rich history it had, which I'm still marveling at that every day. So, yes. So, they kind of adopted me. I was quite a bit younger than anybody who was serving at the Historical Society at that time and just had an opportunity to meet some wonderful people who could tell me great stories about the history of San Marcos. And so, I got involved there and just continued to stay involved for a number of years, and then took a hiatus when I went back to school. And so then jump forward twenty years after I retired and my husband and I traveled for a few years and then came back and the Historical Society was going to be relocating their museum. And that's the time I kind of stepped up and said, “Sure, I can help.” And, so that was in 2009 and I'm still there. (Brown and Friedman laugh) Friedman: Is that when you became President or were you [unintelligible]? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 5 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Brown: Yeah, I have been the President for a very long time. But yes, but we have a really wonderful group of not so many of the pioneer families are left here in San Marcos. But we do have a steadfast group of volunteers that help out. We established a hands-on history program and we've had a lot of Cal State San Marcos students. Want to find out about that. That are going into the teaching program. And we've also had a few internships and I've been able to connect with the, uh, we are a community partner through the community service learning program at Cal State San Marcos. Friedman: What has been your goal as present of the historical society? Brown: Oh my gosh. Well, moving forward, thinking about where we need to be in the future is first and foremost, we have two historical houses that will always need a lot of tender love and care and upkeep because they were built at the end of the nineteenth century, so they're quite old. So establishing an endowment fund for the houses to keep them and other historical houses in perpetuity or as long as they can stand. We also have--my immediate project is a fire engine that I'm trying to get fixed up so we can add it to our hands-on history program. And then, of course, the wonderful thing that we have is the documentation of our history and our archives. And I am blessed to be able to work with Sean [Visintainer] and Jennifer Ho on establishing a really good archival program for our records in the hope that they would be worthy of someone's collection at some point if anything should happen to the Historical Society. So, just kind of laying the foundation for the future, kind of the “what ifs” and “what would happen if” and “how might we continue to preserve these things.” Friedman: That's wonderful. That's very smart. You always need to be thinking forward for your archive collection. Going to your archive, do you have any gems in the archive that you would like to talk about or share? Brown: We have a couple things that are pretty special. So, in the early years of first establishing San Marcos, there were three distinct communities. There was the Twin Oaks area out on the Northeastern side of San Marcos. There was the area known as Richland, which is kind of the center of town and where Cal State San Marcos is. And then on the West end, there was a community known as Barham township. And Barham township today is kind of right on the border of San Marcos and Encinitas. And there was a gentleman named William Webster Borden, and William Webster Borden was the postmaster. He wrote the first newspaper that we have documented called The Plain Truth. And it was postmarked from Barham, California. Anyway, his great-great-grandson delivered to us William Webster Borden’s type desk, which is a tall chest that contains all the little letters to make a newspaper, the individual letters. And so, we are pleased to have William Webster Borden’s type desk. Another thing that we have inherited from that area, there used to be Meadowlark Ranch that was off Rancho Santa Fe Road. And we have the corral gate from Meadowlark Ranch that was taken down in the 1950s. And it is barely standing, but we have figured it up on our backyard so people can have a chance to see that. And then we have an old schoolhouse bell from the 1910 schoolhouse. And that was given to us by William Carroll, who was quite a character. He ran the Outlook Newspaper. He bought the 1910 schoolhouse in the [19]60s and restored it as his newspaper office. He relocated it on Grand Avenue and it's still standing. But he left town in the nineties and moved to New Mexico and then Arcata, California. And once he got settled up there, he contacted us and said, “I'm going to give you the bell, but you have to come and get it.” So, it's a pretty far drive up there. And the thing weighs over two hundred and fifty pounds. So luckily, we were able to find someone who was making the trip down that would deliver it to us. So, we have the original bell from the 1910 schoolhouse in our museum. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 6 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: That's wonderful. Brown: Yeah. One last thing is our museum and building itself is pretty special in that it was built in 1939 by a grant for three thousand two hundred dollars, but it was built by the WPA, which is the Works Progress Administration under Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. And so that was kind of the tail end of the WPA projects. And so, we provided the money for the supplies, but the government would actually supply the workers and pay the workers to complete the work. So, our museum today is one of those projects from the WPA back in 1939. Friedman: That's a great story. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: Wow. You mentioned how are a volunteer-run organization. How do you think the community of your organization and San Marcos in general have contributed to the preservation of the history of San Marcos? Brown: Hmm. Well. I guess one of the things that I'm thinking about in addition to the legacy that we leave is that the pandemic has helped me understand that sometimes you can't wait for people to come to you because we were closed so much of the time during the pandemic that a lot of our programs, a lot of our volunteers, you know, we didn't have them anymore. So, recently, I was on a trip up in Washington state and walking along some of the trails up there are these beautiful displays that show a picture of--you're looking at a building across the lake, but you're seeing a photo of what it was like in 1920 or something like that. And it’s called--the little caption underneath is called Trail Tales. And so, it occurred to me that we really do need to take history out to the public. And, not just on special occasions, when I go out to do a presentation or somebody calls the Historical Society. But just for anybody who's maybe going out for a walk. So, that is one of the things that I'd like to see us do as a city and just community activity is to identify some of these areas that have changed so much over the years and have a then-and-now photo, or a description of what they're looking at, what it used to look like back in the 1920s or in 1890s. So that we just don't get used to thinking that this is the way it's always been, and this is the way it'll always be that there was something before that--what you're seeing today. Friedman: How would you like to, I guess, bring awareness to kind of that issue? Brown: Well, I guess one of the things that we have to do is as, you know, try to work with maybe developers of new projects and have them incorporate some of these Trail Tales or historical icons, so that you can, actually, from the ground level, add that to the aesthetic of whatever's being built today. I mean, maybe we could start at Cal State University and have a photo of the Prohoroff Poultry Farm, (laughs) I don't know, but, there are endless possibilities here in San Marcos. And I was just thinking-there's a new Costco along San Marcos Boulevard and that--where those buildings were airports here in San Marcos, which I'm sure not too many people know about that we had two airports here in San Marcos. So, Julia, you pose a good question. It always requires a little leg work talking just to the right people and getting people excited about things. Friedman: I would like to see that happen someday. I—(laughs) Brown: Maybe we can work together. (laughs) Transcribed by Julia Friedman 7 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: Ooh, I like that. I guess see that as a project, as an exhibit. I could see that as many things. I'm excited. I hope to see that someday. (laughs) Brown: I would love that. Friedman: How have you seen your organization grow over the years? Brown: The Historical Society? Friedman: Yeah. Brown: Historical societies, or at least ours, has not grown. It has dwindled. I think a lot of—and hopefully that is not the--or it's changed, I guess. I think there are less and less, not opportunities, but there are less and less people that get actively involved in volunteerism as much as I remember growing up. Or at least back in the [19]80s, because most people would retire, you know, between fifty-eight, sixty-five [years old], and then they would dedicate a few years to a civic organization. In talking with other historical societies in North County, groups like Kiwanis [Kiwanis International] and Rotary [San Diego Rotary], I've noticed a kind of a steady decline in those memberships. And I don't think it's because people aren't equally as busy now as they used to be, but their time is spent differently than it maybe had been in the past. And I don't know. I think my generation of people, or maybe it's just me, I tend to be a joiner. I like doing stuff with other people because I think more gets accomplished. But that's a good question. Something, I think about a lot in terms of, you know, again, what happens if our volunteers, you know, we don't have as many people that are as interested in our future or our history and moving it forward. So, my big hope is kids as all, as we like to make sure that they think history is something important and to be cherished. Friedman: How do you like to reach out to school groups? Do you have like a school program? Do you have special exhibits for that? Brown: We have, prior to COVID, we had a pretty flourishing hands-on history program for elementary students and for the primary students, they would come out to Heritage Park and participate in kind of a round robin of activities. We'd have five different activities that they would participate in. They would learn about the Native American community that lived here in San Marcos. They would take a tour of two historical houses. They would learn a craft of what kids did one hundred and twenty years ago. What kind of crafts did they do? What kind of things did they have to work with? “Did they have markers? No.” (laughs) So we do a little activity like that. We do games that kids played with pine cones and old equipment and things like that that are kind of made-up games. And then we do chores. So, they do outdoor laundry in the tub. They wash the clothes, they plant in the garden and they make biscuits and butter from scratch. So, and then at the end of the session, we get to taste the butter that we have made. So it's really about, “What was life like in San Marcos back in 1890?” And so, kids get a chance to kind of see--we partner with the Vallecitos Water District, who's very gracious to help bust the students out to Heritage Park. And then they also do a little session on water conservation. And it blends right into our concept of, you know, how did people wash their clothes and wash their dishes and where did they go to the bathroom and take a bath when there were no inside restrooms? So, it's kind of an ecology lesson as well as a sustainability lesson, but also a history lesson as well. Friedman: Those sound really exciting. My next question I realize can pertain both to, I guess, lack of volunteers and also children's education. I didn't realize it pertained to what we just spoke about Transcribed by Julia Friedman 8 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 previously, but what would you like future historians to understand about lack of funding in both education and the nonprofit sphere? Brown: Well, I guess, you know, my family, both my husband and my fathers were both elementary school principals. So we’ve been in involved with public schools our whole lives, and supportive of what public schools do and taking advantage of just amazing teachers and, you know, people who give so much to help our kids learn. And I just think that, in today's world, the things that we celebrate and invest in, while they are important, to know about, I just wish as much money could be invested into education. And I'm not just talking about K-12, I'm talking about higher education and as well. I'm a strong believer in lifelong learning and, you know, education, libraries, civic organizations are really the things that provide a huge quality of life in our community. And, you know, it, pains me a little that so much money goes into sports, and I'm not against sports, or other things that people are high ticket items, that don't end up with a lot of bang for your buck. And I just think, that it's something that we all share and we can always make better. I know there's been a lot of, you know, down talking schools as a result of the last couple of years, and I just, feel bad that teachers kind of take a brunt of stuff and just trying to do the best I can every day. Friedman: Why do you think lack of funding could be so detrimental to the preservation and understanding of history? Brown: Well, I think, I mean, history tells a lot about where we go, and where we've been. And there are, I believe, cycles that come around. But I do think, you know, again, one of the things that excites me is that I get a lot of newsletters from schools and organizations just like Cal State San Marcos. I get the update of all the cool things that are going on on the campus on a weekly basis. And I compare that with the, you know, what's on the news every night, which is kind of depressing. And I'm thinking, “Why aren't we covering all these amazing things that are going on in the local schools?” And not just Cal State San Marcos or in our local schools, but a citywide and regionwide. I mean, students are just doing some amazing things but when there's not a lot of money to support those kinds of things, it does really affect, especially, those who are not--don't have the life experience to know that you can go to a free museum, or, you know, there are free things. And I do think that educational opportunities through schools provide a lot of awareness about ways to do things that don't cost a lot of money or that are enrichment activities through the classrooms. So, and it takes money to pay for that stuff. Friedman: Yeah. That's well said. What do you think these nonprofits need to do in order to survive during these difficult times? Brown: Stick together, I guess. (laughs) Well, you know what, you do what you can do. And, you know, I'm an advocate. I don't like to, you know, diss people for what they're not doing, but really, try to appreciate people for what they do do. And, you know, make the most of it. I think April is Volunteer Month and, you know, volunteering isn't going to happen if people go and they're not enjoying it, or they're not getting some kind of reward out of it. And I think that's, you know, we need to always kind of invest in our volunteers in terms of making sure that they are able to engage in the things they like to do when they come out and volunteer. But, the Historical Society--our members--we participate in a bigger group called CINCH [Council for the Interpretation of North County History], which is all the North County historical societies. We gather four times a year just to share ideas and, you know, tips and what they're doing. And you never know when you're going to get a really good idea from somebody that turns out to be lucrative. And then I'm always looking for partnerships. I'm always looking to work with Transcribed by Julia Friedman 9 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 our agencies, our city. We're so lucky to be able to be in our city park. So we have people that come out to the park and walk by and try to talk to people that come by, invite them in. So yeah, I mean, that's my approach and I guess have grant writers that will help find the money and put it in our hands. (laughs) Friedman: That's always important. I would like to jump back a bit to San Marco Marcos’ history. Brown: Okay. Friedman: From your experience working at the San Marcos Historical Society, who do you believe are some significant historical individuals in San Marcos history, such as prominent individuals or famous families? Brown: Okay. Well, the original home--well, first of all, the Twin Oaks area is primarily--was one of the settlement areas for the Luiseño tribe. And, well, I don't have access to direct descendants of those--the mission band of Luiseño Indians are really the kind of the original homesteaders there in the Twin Oaks Valley. So, I think that we should always recognize that, you know, somebody was here before the first covered wagons came or anything like that. And then our Rancho period was very short in San Marcos. So, the first, like homesteader families that are still European homesteader families are the Merriam family. And there are a few of them still living and in this area. The Uhlands have a huge connection, not only to Heritage Park, but the whole Twin Oaks Valley area. And there are still Uhlands family members in town. The Fultons, and a lot of these, like the Fultons, the Bordens, the Barhams--those are all San Marcos street names. So, you don't have to go too far to recognize that those families have had their own streets named after them. But we recently lost the original homestead of a Fulton family, which is very sad. They had a homestead at in San Marcos in 1893, and the last family member that had lived on the homestead, moved to Nebraska last fall. So, from 1893 to 2021, was inhabited by one family. And then also out here in Twin Oaks the Astleford family were only one of two families that owned property here in Twin Oaks Valley. I mentioned William Webster Borden, the Barhams. In the Richland area, there was another Borden, Reynold Bascom Borden his house is still standing in the Richland area. So, we have, you know, again, a number of families. Friedman: That's really interesting. Are there also any individuals from San Marcos history that not as well known that we should know about such as individuals from marginalized communities? Brown: Well, actually, this is kind of interesting. Several years ago we took a world map and tried to chart all the places that, you know, people that had moved to San Marcos, where they had come from. And, while, one of the things that we realized is that we had had a very large community of Serbian and Yugoslavian families that moved to San Marcos. The Prohoroffs were originally from Russia. They moved to Mexico and then migrated up through Mexico to Southern California. We do have, we have Meadowlark Cemetery that is off Rancho Santa Fe Road. It was a pioneer cemetery over on the West end of San Marcos. And there are several homesteaders there that, you know, were there prior, between the 1850s, 1870. I'm trying to think of other--of course, you know, I look at photos of early San Marcos. We had Japanese, we had a lot of Japanese farmers that had to leave during World War II. We have a lot of Hispanic families that have come and gone through San Marcos. And usually, we will meet those people that will come to the museum that, you know, their grandparents worked at Prohoroff Ranch or in the, one of the farms here in San Marcos. But they don't live here anymore. And so, we don't have the longevity of their history. But I'm always anxious to, you know, find out some of those kind of stories that, have lived on. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 10 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: That's really interesting. Thank you. Brown: Julia. I need to get a drink. Friedman: Oh, sure. Brown: Can we stop for a minute? Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. So interview with Tanis Brown paused at 11:01. Interview with Tanis Brown resumed at 11:02. If you were to interview someone from San Marcos for an oral history interview, who would be, and why? Brown: Well, we have captured a lot of, kind of the old timey history in San Marcos from the 1800s, 1900s. But I am interested in working with people that maybe are in their sixties that have gone through the entire San Marcos school district, or actually moved here as young children and watched San Marcos grow. As an adult, I’m pretty aware of that, you know, kind of the development of the city. But it would be interesting to get a sense of a student’s perspective as they have grown. And now are adults and their take on San Marco’s history, kind of the next gen[eration] of history for the future. I mean, we have a lot of, you know, kind of more recently women in politics. And I would like to interview Pia Harris [San Marcos' first female council member], Rebecca Jones [San Marcos Mayor at time of recording], and also some of our city employees who have just an amazing background of knowledge of how things came to be. Friedman: I like that. Those are really interesting people to interview. How have you seen the city of San Marcos develop over the last forty years? Brown: (laughs) Well, when my kids first walked to school in San Marcos in 1976, Woodland Park was an elementary school. It's now a middle school. And it was built in the seventies when there was really very little money for new schools. But it was an open school. So, there were no dividers. And the only dividers in the school were short bookcases. And when we walked down to meet the principal before school started, he was standing on a ladder in the very center of the building, looking around at all the-where the classrooms would be. And, we just kind of thought, “Oh my gosh.” It was very interesting, but on the way, walking to school, our children had--we had to skirt a pasture to get to school. We don't see that so much anymore. So those were kind of our first, you know, memories of moving to San Marcos and, really being in a rural community that neither my husband or I had ever felt so close to a rural atmosphere. To, you know, watching the university get built to watching buildings get moved and relocated for the city hall complex. For--certainly traffic is very different. There were no traffic signals in San Marcos until 1974. There was one four-way stop at Mission Empico Road when I was going to Palomar College. So that four-way stop on the first day school could get really crazy. But the thing that I feel kind of most proud about is that we really established, many years ago, that San Marcos would keep a quality of life through parks, open spaces, and trails, so that if you wanted to ride a bicycle from one end of town to the other, or to visit a park, there would be one in your neighborhood and you would have a connection to that. So that part of the growth of San Marcos, I think, is going to pay off in the long run as we continue to develop new neighborhoods like North City and still keeping a quality of life, as well as accommodating people who want to live here. And that doesn't mean just a certain, you know, type of person. We need to keep are community a blended community. So young people, old people, any stripe of person can move to San Marcos, find a home, and a connection. And I think Transcribed by Julia Friedman 11 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 between city, and the organizations, and the resources that we have is that we want to be a welcoming place for anybody who comes to San Marcos. Yeah. Friedman: Thank you. What to you makes San Marcos and San Marcos history so fascinating to study? Brown: Well, I just like the idea that you can, you know, you can create things. I think people come to different communities. Something usually draws them to an area. Like even as back as the first tribal communities, they found what was going to meet their needs: water, flat land, access to food, and shelter. And, I think people are still doing that. They're looking for something that meets their needs. And so I think as we move forward that it's our responsibility to make sure that we provide opportunities for people that come here. I'm not sure I answered that question very well. Friedman: No you did, thank you. And what do you think is so important or what is important about understanding local history? Brown: Okay. Well, I think, I mean, history's human. I mean, you know, a lot of people say, and we always have to second guess ourselves, because the minute you put something down on paper and then somebody--and it's written and somebody'll say, “Well, that isn’t the way I remember it.” So, there's so much humanity in history and it's how we, you know, how we look at it and maybe our opinion of that history changes. But it is. And there isn't just one history, you know. We all make our own history. And so, but I do think--I love the opportunity that we have, at least that I have, and that we're willing to share about information that people felt was important enough to document back in the 1880s or [18]90s, and may have some relevance for us today. We recently were going through the Fulton papers, which we’re archiving, and we found a reference in a letter about the 1916 flood that was here in San Marcos, which we have a photo of in our museum. And that same letter also referenced the pandemic in 1918. So, to me, and it's like, “Oh my gosh,” because we didn't, well, we weren't necessarily looking for it, as it related to San Marcos, but when we saw it, it was like, “Oh my gosh,” it talked about this lady who was willing to go over and help her neighbors out who had the Spanish Flu. And so here it was right here in San Marcos. And I don't know, that just to me create some kind of bond between people from 1918 that were right here in the same neighborhood or in the same place that we were, or we are now. And, so I don't know. That's just so exciting to me that a hundred years ago they were experiencing kind of the same thing and not exactly knowing how to deal with it. So, not that much has changed in spite of all the cars, in spite of all the buildings, not that much has changed. We're still people. And that's what I think history is really about people's stories. Friedman: Well, thank you so much, Tanis. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else you'd like to share today? Brown: Well, I would just like to say that, whoever is viewing this video is welcome to come out and visit Heritage Park in Walnut Grove Park. And, we welcome and would love to share history with you. Friedman: Very well said. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being part of this project. Brown: Well, I'm really happy to--I wasn't expecting to do that. I was expecting to share other people's names, but I'm happy to have shared my history with you. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 12 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: Thank you. We're so happy that you are a part of this project and we're so happy to have your story become a part of our collection. Brown: Great. Me too. Friedman: Well, thank you. Brown: Okay. So is that, is that it. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 13 2023-02-22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brown, Tanis. Interview transcript. April 13, 2022. Description An account of the resource Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tanis Brown Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-13 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos San Marcos (Calif.) -- History San Marcos Historical Society -- California -- San Marcos Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-20 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6b22ccbc00d0322a6ff45172fc768927.pdf 510d392504b80cf01ac05eeecaed2feb PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley. Today I am interviewing Gerardo Cabral for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 28th, 2023, and this interview is taking place via Zoom. Hi Gerardo. Thank you for coming. Gerardo Cabral: Hey, Seth! (Both Laugh) Stanley: To start off, could you give me a, a bit of background and how you ended up at CSUSM? Cabral: Yeah, so I'm originally from San Diego, and born and raised there. And so Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State were sort of my options. I, I didn't ever think of leaving. So how I ended up at Sac(ramento State)--or not Sac State--Cal State San Marcos is I transferred there after I did about five years at Palomar College. I was working full-time. And so with that, I worked with my EOP (Educational Opportunity Program) counselor and we, we submitted some applications locally. And so got into to Cal State San Marcos and I thought it was a great fit. Felt it, it, it felt good to attend and sort of in the current stage of my life at that moment. And so, accepted it and my journey started 2008. Stanley: Very cool. Could you tell us about your journey from, from be being a student at CSUSM to becoming a community relations manager at ABC 10 (News San Diego)? Cabral: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a big question. (Stanley laughs). It's a long-- (both talking at once) Stanley: Go for it, man. Cabral: But essentially so, in 2008, so I graduated high school in 2003, and--and so I went to high school that didn't have a lot of support for sort of students of underprivileged and underserved backgrounds. So I really didn't have the choice of going to a four-year (college). I did have some of my friends go and they talked about their experience. As I was in college, I was experiencing sort of the, the life outside of their lens, outside of that lens. And so when I was going to Cal--, when I was going to Palomar, the community college I did, I did tell it to myself that I was gonna transfer into a four-year and I was going to make everything possible to get that quote unquote college experience without living on campus. So I did that. So when I got to Cal State San Marcos one of the first things was like, I wanted to get involved. I wanted to work on campus. Mind you, I was working full-time at, as a financial advisor at a credit union. But I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 1 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral felt it was so important for me to get that experience because if I didn't, I would probably regret it for the rest of my life. So I wanted to make sure that I made friends, that I worked on campus, that I really engaged with sort of the culture of the campus community. And so I went--I went online and I started looking at jobs, and I saw this peer educator position at the Cross-Cultural Center. I've always had, I took a lot of Chicano Studies classes, Ethnic Studies classes. So I really had this fond appreciation for multicultural education, and understanding, and you know, the, the, the work of what that all encompasses. And so, so I applied for that. To be honest, my interview probably didn't go as well because I was in, I was in the mindset of a financial advisor position. I had already been there for seven years, and so I thought like, oh, I'm gonna get this interview in the bag. But then once I started having them ask me questions about like, what's my, what's my definition of equity and diversity? I knew what it was, but I wasn't able to articulate it in a way where it's like, you know in sort of that academia space. So-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: I wasn't offered that position right away. But I did have a director at the time of Student Life in Leadership, her name is, Dilcie. Dr. Dilcie Perez. She came up to me and talked to me and was like, “Hey, like, you know you did, you did a good job, but you know there are some things that you could improve on in your interview.” And this, this, and that. And, you know as a, as a seasoned career staff already in the financial industry, it took me off guard that this individual actually provided me feedback. At the moment I was just-- that's interesting. But I really appreciated it after, because, you know, I was getting into a different career essentially, you know-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --because I had quit my full-time job. And then I went into this, in this multicultural education space. Nonetheless, I got the job. I was offered the job shortly after. I sort of was able to sort of articulate a little bit more my passions and my interest for the position. And yeah. So I did that. I was very involved in sort of the, that peer educator, the multicultural teaching work. And I think it was not--it was beneficial for me personally because I was learning firsthand some of these theories and things that were, that were being put into place. And I was sort of like starting to connect dots. ‘Cause I've always, I always knew what this was. I always practiced, you know, inclusivity, but I never was able to put terms to it until when I went into this role as a peer educator. So I would say that my foundation for community-building and community-connecting became stronger and solidified when I was in this role. So once I graduated, I went into become, I became a resident director at San Diego State (University). And I got-- simultaneously, I was working as my master's, my master's program. And so what I did was I was doing a lot of community-connecting. I was overseeing a staff of twenty-two individuals, and I was really building and fostering this inclusive living, working and live and work space at San Diego State. ‘Cause I was overseeing the dorms there. And then I had a staff. So really it, I was putting all my teachings into practice. And so that was, that happened for about five years. Then I transitioned out. and I took a job at Sac(ramento) State (University) as the Associate Director for Student Engagement and Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 2 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Outreach, which sort of aligned really closely with the work that I was already doing, sort of that community connecting, engaging with students, really making them feel belonged and providing events and services that made them feel welcome to campus. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: So I did that for about a year. And then that was the first time I ever moved out of San Diego State. So I went--actually, I moved back to San Diego, (connection issue) shortly after, not because-- well one, I really didn't like the job and, and sort of its politics, but I was missing home a lot. So I came back and I worked for Barrio Logan College Institute, which was a nonprofit in Barrio Logan. And I was their--I was doing their college and career program there. So, I already had this understanding of like, how the pathways to get into college and, and really was sharing with them sort of their experiences and how to make the most of their experiences at the university level. Being sort of first generation and Latinx backgrounds. And basically teaching them sort of based off of my lived experiences. And then (both laugh) then in 2020, right before I took a job at Sac State, ’cause my husband was actually in Sacramento when I moved out there the first time, he stayed. And so I went back there, and then I took a job in Alumni Relations where I was really fostering relationships with a lot of community members, really doing a lot of philanthropy work, development work and a lot of development work is all relationship building. And I think within this role, you know, as a peer educator, I was building a lot of trust. I was building a lot of relationships with individuals who perhaps didn't understand the concepts or understandings of diversity, equity, and inclusion, but was able to really foster those relationships and really meet them at where they were at. So, we could teach them sort of the importance of that-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --or at least have them hear us out in those spaces. So that was, so that was that. And then, then in 2021, I was--I mean we were all in a pandemic and so we were all sort of at a standstill, but I was sort of, I was sort of recruited into this role that I currently have now. I wasn't job searching, but you know, I had taken a leadership program during COVID(-19) or during quarantine, and my name was sort of thrown out. Somebody invited me out for coffee, offered me this great opportunity that I couldn't pass up because it felt really great, and here I am! (Stanley Laughs) And so I've been there almost two years now, come September. It's crazy to even think that I've been in this role for two years and I'm working in broadcasting. But it is something that I never would've thought. But I have never regretted it once and I enjoy it. I've, I've enjoyed it ever since. Stanley: Wow. Well, what a story. (Both laugh) Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 3 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: Yes. Right. Stanley: Yeah. Could you, could you tell me about your current role, as Community Relations Manager? Cabral: Yeah. So, like you said I'm the current Community Relations Manager at ABC-10 which is--our call letters are KXTV for the broadcast folks out there. But yeah, so we're, ABC-10 is a local, is a Sacramento local news station that broadcasts news for three of the counties here in Northern California: Sacramento County, Modesto (County), and Stockton (County). And my primary role is really--is to be the brand ambassador for my station and for my organization. It's really about going out and infusing myself into the community and really letting people know who we are, what we do, and what we stand for, our brand. I'm sort--I'm housed out of marketing and so a lot of my role is intentional marketing, with a focus of, you know, relationship building. And so I do a lot of the work. I mean, I wish I could say what I do in one sentence, (Stanley laughs) but I feel like I can't-Stanley: Well. Cabral: --but, Oh, go ahead. Stanley: (unintelligible) Say several sentences, (laughs). Cabral: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, essentially, like I said, I'm the brand ambassador. And so what that encompasses is really just, you know, our brand is: we stand--ABC-10, we stand for you. It's really you know, historically, news outlets have always been sort of seen as negative outlets for storytelling. You know with, because we're typically always covering shootings, deaths, killings and things like that. And so we've made it our mission before I even got here--five years ago when we rebranded and we reevaluated our mission and values for the station. We wanted to, we--our organization had committed to making sure that we were the community leader and sharing stories not only in the sense of letting people (be) aware of the things that are happening maybe that are challenging in our communities, but also those things that are elevating and impacting, celebrating the things in our community. So we, so my role is to build those community relationships, that community trust and share with them that, hey, we're looking for community storytelling partners to not only--because again, we're none of us, not a lot of us in the newsroom are from Sacramento. So it's like having somebody tell a story from where you're from and you're like, oh, they don't even know, they don't even know San Diego like that. Right? If for me, I--when I see the news and I'm like, “Why would they call, why would they call it that?” I'm like, that's not Chula Vista. That's, San Ysidro or, this is Escondido not Nor-- whatever, you know, we start to nitpick. And so really, it's about again, that's what we're--we look for storytelling partners to help us tell the stories that are being impacted in the community. The great work that we are doing, the community leaders, how can we highlight them? Because again, we want to change this notion of news Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 4 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral to be all negative, and we want it to be both informative but also celebratory as well. Because again we are part of the community. We are, sometimes individuals look at us as the face of the community-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --because they're watching us on the screen. And so what can we do to build that trust and to showcase the greatness that it, that is Sacramento. Stanley: Um-Hm. Would you have any examples of you doing development work or fostering relations? Cabral: Oh my gosh. Yeah (Stanley laughs). So when I was, one that I'm really proud of is that we--so when I first got on in September of last year, shortly after we had, we got--in the news, in the newsroom we get different airtime. And so we have, we had a 6:30 slot. And so we recruited and hired this young woman from Fresno, who's originally from Ohio, lived in L.A., went to Fresno, and then we hired her-her name's Alex Bell--to have her own show. Almost like David, World News, David Muir. And so we wanted to emulate that. And so we hired her, and I was part of her team. And part of her team was to really, we're launching the show from the ground up. We are building content, we are building visuals. So in that process, I was really able to talk about sort of ensuring that, you know, we're looking at this show and the image in a multicultural lens and in an inclusive lens, right? Because if-Stanley: Yeah Cabral: This is, this gives us a great opportunity to start something that we've never done before. And so, and part of my role too was to be part is, was to be part of that community engagement team with her. So, because I was there and she started in October, I just hit the ground running. So we started in, we started infusing her in the community, really just having her meet some of the community leaders, letting people know, “Hey, we have this show coming, it's launching in August. It's all community driven. It's about story, it's like storytelling and talking about--it's going beyond the headlines of what we're talking about.” And we're doing long segmenting stories about communities, neighborhoods, groups of individuals, advocacy or advocates in our community. And we were able to launch this. And I think what the the thing that I was able to really gauge as a success was once we built these relationships in Aug-- in July, right before the launch of our show in August I was tasked to do sort of like a--not, I wasn't tasked, but I was like, “Hey, you know, we've met with all these individuals. Why don't we start doing a tour of Alex Bell meet and greets. Let's have her, let's have the community members meet the team, meet her, really have them share some of their story ideas.” Because that's what we look for, right? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 5 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Stanley: Um-hmm. Cabral: Because, like story, we're always getting--we're getting emails constantly about story ideas, of what we could do, what we can cover, good, bad and the ugly. And so we did this. And so I worked with a lot of my community partners that I had fostered and built relationships with. And we were able to do six meet and greets throughout the, without--within the region of Sacramento. So, in Sac(ramento) and Stockton. We had seven meet and greets that were, that when we worked collaboratively, collaboratively with different nonprofit organizations and organizations to really have them. And probably at each event we had about a hundred people attend each of these events. And these are cons--these are constituents, these are our viewers, these are people in the community. People were excited to see this new face. And so, I was able to really create a a marketing campaign to really promote this event, these meet and greets. It's, they called (it), “Alex Bell Meet and Greets.” Because the show is “To the Point With Alex Bell.” So we were able to really home in on our community and lean on them to sort of share this information of the meet and greets. And it was great. (Connection issue; unintelligible). Stanley: Um-Hm. Oh, oh, oh, no. Pause recording now. There we go. Mute. Please continue. Sorry about that. Cabral: (Connection issue; unintelligible) We were able to gauge the success was-- (unintelligible) Stanley: Oh, man. Cabral: Yeah. But I mean, I think I sort of just sort of shared sort of what I did and the success it was for our meet and greets at, at the station. And I think it was through those relationships that I was able to build, it was a success. Stanley: Um-Hm. All right. Before we get into your experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center just one more question. What advice would you give someone starting out in the, in a field like community relations? Cabral: Gosh. I mean, I think you have to start, you have to--oh, that's a great question. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 6 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Stanley: (laughs) All good. Cabral: It has to be, it has to be authentic. I think, you know, in a space where you have to build relationships for--and there is a certain goal in mind, make sure the goal aligns with your values, first off, because I know there's a lot of jobs that are out there that you have to build relationships, whether it's because you have to meet a sales quota or because you're like intentionally and authentically needing a certain thing. Or wanting some sort of reciprocation. And in my situation, you know, the reciprocation is that in hopes that I build relationships, that we see that our community partners will feel welcomed and trusted to share with us the newsroom in, in a time if there ever is a need of some sort. Or they're wanting to help elevate a story or a story pitch. And that aligns with me. I think, you know, I know a lot of sales folks who have to build relationships, but they're building the relationships because they have to get something out of it. And I think that can sometimes be unauthentic or transactional. So--and I'm not saying that that's bad, because, you know, we have a lot of phenomenal sales folks. It just really depends on where your values lie in, in sort. And for me, it was like, “I can't do transactional.” Transactional will be part of a relationship at some point in time, but I can't have it be the sole thing there. It can't be the priority or the priority purpose of my role. So for me, this community piece, when they were just like, “We just need you to build relationships and build trust,” I, when I heard that, I was like, “Absolutely.” And then I, right after that, I asked, “Well, what is your mission and values of the organization? And what are you all trying to accomplish?” And when they shared with me all of those things, I said, okay, that aligns really well with who I am as an individual. So this work is going to seem, I wouldn't say effortless, but it's going to come off a little bit easier for me because this is what I do. This is how I live. I live through authentic connections. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: Through community building. And so that's, I think that's why I've been able to be so successful with my role. And so to go back to your question, what I, the advice that I give is, you know, if-- just make sure whatever work that you do aligns with your values and that the mission aligns with your values as an individual. Stanley: I like it. I like it (laughs). Cabral: Yep. Stanley: Well, let's get into the meat of the interview. Could you describe the, what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 7 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: Yeah. Oh, the Cross-Cultural Center was such a little center. I have not been back since I graduated, but-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --it was a small room, right next to the coffee cart. I don't even know where that's at anymore. But it was a very, very, very small room. And you know, we had a red couch and we had-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --you know, it was just like a little space. And essentially what it was, it was a community space for a lot of our multi-ethnic student organizations. It was a place where we put programming together. We did events. And it was a sub-department of Student Life and Leadership, if you will. Stanley: Um-Hm, yeah. Cabral: At the time we were working, gosh, in between (2011) through (2018), we had--at the time there was some phenomenal directors (in Student Life and Leadership) who worked very close--who built relationships amongst each other, who then really set the example for relationship-building. And so I know Sara Sheikh was like, she was my mentor. I used to see her as a beautiful soul. And as an individual who really, who really, gave me the foundation of who I'm today. And then we had Lea Burgess-Carland, who was the director of the Women's Center, which is now the Gender Equity Center. And I believe there was Roger, who was Roger De Andreas, who was the current Pride (LGBTQA Pride Center) director. And so at the time, those were the only three identity-based centers. And so we sort of had named ourselves the Social Justice Centers. And at the time they were all just very small. We had phenomenal, phenomenal staffing, programming. We were, we all were very collaborative and really--in really educating our campus community about inclusivity of gender equity of LGBT and sexual orientation theory and things of that nature. And so, yeah, it was, I mean, again it was (a) phenomenal time. Those--during that time, it was when I met some of my best friends who are still now my friends. So yeah. So that's a little bit about what that center was when we first got there. Stanley: Well I love hearing about the old red couches (laughter). Been interviewing people, people-(Both talking) Cabral: --it was like the blue, it was like the Blues Clues couch, I swear. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 8 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Stanley: (laughs) I heard you say that Sara Sheikh was your mentor. Could you tell me more about her? I actually was going to ask about her. Cabral: Oh, Sara Sheikh, my gosh. Where do I start? Sara Sheikh, she is an absolute beautiful soul. I just-very welcoming, inclusive, meets you where you're at. And I think as a mentor, as someone who had changed their career 100% to get into education I think it's like, there's a saying where there's people in your life that you didn't know you needed until you, until after the fact. And I think Sara Sheikh was that individual, you know as somebody who was closeted, gay, you know at the time that I was working there, she was able to help me embrace who I was as an individual. And to work those challenges out for me, like I said earlier, (connection issue) educating students and doing training and facilitating training. But I was a student as well because I was, as I was learning and teaching, I was learning myself. And I think she, Sara just had this, ugh, I don't know this beautiful aura of like, this, I--it's so hard to explain (Stanley laughs). I, we, I talk to my friends about Sara, and we're just like, “Yo, we miss Sara,” because she's doing her own thing now with her family in Orange County. But it's like, what a beautiful soul she was and is, because (of) her intentionality and the way she taught things and the way she facilitated was just effortless. But I, we knew that either she al--she always had those strengths, or she learned. She learned that, but like how great it was for us to be able to be part of that journey for her and for her to teach us. Because again, when I talk about, you know, my way of facilitating. My way--my active listening skills, my way in approaching things in large group settings and talking about multiculturalism and diversity and equity and inclusion, I embody and sometimes say like, “What would Sara do?” Because essentially it's like she facilitated and had these things with such grace, and never have I met someone else like Sara, like before. I hope you get to interview her, or somebody gets to interview her on sort of the f-- the foundation of what she's left, because, you know, I know her. And those, and the three directors that I mentioned started this social justice, the Social Justice Retreat, which was just absolutely incredible. In, in, in, in, in the time. And, you know, people who attended needed these spaces, needed these awakenings to really, to explore who they were as individuals, who they were as allies, who they were in their current state at that time. So yeah. So that's a little bit about Sara. Stanley: Well, I love that. I think it's pretty, pretty funny that I've interviewed a few people so far (laughs), and they've also called her a beautiful soul and-Cabral: Aww Stanley: And also said, “What would Sarah do?” (Both laugh) And yeah, I didn't get to interview her, but one of my colleagues did and apparently was an incredible interview. So (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 9 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: Oh God, I would love to hear it. God, I miss her voice so much. Stanley : Well it'll be up in the archives. Once it's up-Cabral: Yes! Stanely: I'll be happy to send it to you. Yeah. Cabral: Oh my God, if you can, I would love that. Stanley: Perfect. Cabral: I would love it. Stanley: Anyway, continuing on, in what ways did your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center help you expand and develop as a person? Cabral: Oh Gosh. In what ways? Stanley: Um-hm. Yes. Cabral: Geez. I mean, in every way possible. In any way imaginary, you know, as I think before I got into the Cross-Cultural Center, I was just living, I don't think I was living authentically. You know, I think--and again--being a closeted man as well-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --as gay Latino, I was, I didn't know where my future was going to go. And I think, you know, again, I didn't know I needed that space until I actually realized it. And once I was in it, or after the fact, and, you know I think being in that space, having Dilcie (Perez) giving me that opportunity to actually be Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 10 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral a peer educator too, was beneficial personally and professionally. And I was able to come out as an openly gay man, which is--now I'm happily married and been in my, my relationship with for eight years and. You know, we have a family. And so if--I guess I always question and think about, if I were not in this space, if I was not, if I didn't challenge myself to really dive deep into who I was as an individual, would I be where I'm at today? I don't know. Because, you know--and I was a late--I was a student, I wasn't your traditional quote unquote, “traditionally-aged college student.” You know, I went to community college for five years. I was already in my career in the finance industry. And so when I was at Cal State San Marcos, I was working with a lot of folks who had just graduated high school, but I was already in my mid-twenties. And so, you know, I was in my mid-twenties, didn't know who I was as--I knew who I was as individual, as an individual, but I wasn't able to live it authentically. And so being in this space, being in this role (at the Cross-Cultural Center), having mentors who are just like, “I am out and proud and this is who I am,” empowered me to be that. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: And so for that I'm forever grateful. And which--and I think--which is why I made it a service of mine to live authentically, and to embrace, and to embrace who I am as an individual of my multiple identities that I have in hopes that I can too empower the youth, the--those new newly admitted college students or even adults, you know? And so, and I do have people time and time again, say like, “Wow, Gerardo you, I love how you just live authentically,” or I love how just authentic you are. And I was like, “That is, that is the only way you should live.” While I'm privileged to be able to live that way, you know, I know not everybody is. And so, it's, it's yeah. So I think to answer your question on how it's, how being in this space and in this role has changed me: I think it's changed me 100% of who I am today. And how--and the success of my career and personally and even the success within familial relationships, because I never had the tools of how to speak to my parents on who I was as an individual. How was I gonna come out to my parents and tell them? And, you know, through these facilitation courses, of training that I went through and these activism skills, I was able to come out to my parents in a way that, you know, I was able to help them understand too. And I gave them grace too, because they don't know any of sort of like the lingo that we talk about in academia (Stanley laughs), you know, because they don't have an (connection Issue; inaudible)-- they for me to talk about equity and belonging and inclusivity, like none of that. They don't understand any of that. So I really had to be able to formulate words to where I was able to meet them where they're at and tell them how I appreciate them accepting me for who I am and having those difficult conversations. So I think it just, and my experience has, has impacted every aspect of my life. Stanley: Well, that's fantastic. I'm glad that the CCC really helped you in that way. I guess on the, on the flip side, oh (laughs), on the flip side of that question I would, I would ask how did the Cross-Cultural Center help you develop as a professional? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 11 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: How did they how did the CCC-- (connection issue; inaudible) Stanley: CCC help you develop as a professional? Cabral: Great question. I mean as a professional, I was able to navigate certain spaces with--you know-at the end of the day, we were a department of Student Life and Leadership. There were processes, protocols in place that we needed to follow, and so (connection issue; audio cut)-- worked for other organizations and the finance industry. And so I knew protocol of like working, I knew expectations of the workplace. I knew the consequences or the repercussions if: should I not show up to work? Should I not turn in my timecard on time? Should I not follow procedures? I already knew what those, what those actions (connection Issue; inaudible). So I felt, you know, I took this job extremely seriously already. I think it just helped me more so--be more confident in having conversations regarding these topics of multicultural education and in the DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) space. Stanley: All right. Well so you said yeah, co-- just more confidence. Yeah. Cabral: Yeah, I would say so. Stanley: Hmm. We're, we're winding down here. Let me ask you, what would maybe be your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center? Or just a memory, if you can't think of a specific one? Cabral: Oh (Stanley laughs). What was a favorite memory? Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: Oh my gosh (Stanley laughs). There's so many. And I would have to say, my experience at the Social Justice Summit. Stanley: Okay. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 12 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: You know, it was a weekend, a weekend retreat. And you know, you were committing to put yourself in a 100% vulnerable space. And I think for me it was great. You know, different types of life, like walks of life, walk into that room and be vulnerable and have those conversations and see the light bulbs. I saw the light bulbs myself, for myself. I saw them with others, and just the space that we were able to create that that they created of leaders, because I was a participant the first year, and then the next year I was a facilitator. And forever I (connection Issue; audio cut)-- we, we helped facilitate and work with young leaders who wanted to explore their identities and this, (connection Issue; audio cut)-I would say. Then the other one sort-- (connection Issue; unintelligible). Can you hear me? Stanley: Oh hi, sorry. It, it, it cut out a little, but I (both talking) heard, I heard mostly-Cabral: Oh yeah. Stanley: You said-- Cabral: Oh, yeah. Okay, cool. Stanley: Were, were you finished with your thought? I'm sorry about that. Cabral: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did. Stanley: Okay. And I'll wrap up the interview. I like to ask this one, this last question. What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces? Spaces like the Latin@/x Center or the Black Student Center, places like that? Cabral: Oh, gosh. I mean that's a hard (connection issue; inaudible) (question) for me to answer because I've seen the value of cross-cultural center spaces in various different campuses, and I've been part of those conversations as well at other campuses. But I also see the value of identity-specific centers and and some--the concern always comes up in these conversations at other institutions about, “Well, where does that lead to Cross-Culture Center?” Right? Because now that we've expanded into all these identity-based centers, what is now the purpose for the Cross-Culture Center? And to be completely honest, for me it's hard to answer because I'm just, I'm not entirely sure, because before we were a space where all identities and all ethnic groups were welcome then now that there are these spaces Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 13 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral specific to these ethnic groups, like I'm, I'm curious. And again, I leave that up to that--the folks in academia and student affairs folks, because again, I'm not saying that it should be, like we should, we should remove them. I'm just curious as to how--I'm excited to see how we--we, because I feel like I'm sort of in an academia space still, but like how academia or the university sees this: the (Cross-Cultural) Center moving forward in a time where there's now a need for these ethnic spaces. So I am not entirely sure. What I hope is that, you know we are like, in an ideal world, I would love for the Cross-Cultural Center to be its own division, and then have the ethnic centers be within the Cross-Cultural Center. You know, because, you know, we--and then have the work talk about sort of that intersectionality piece of it all, of, of--with the Pride Center, with the LGBT Center, with the Gender Equity Center and things of that nature, because I think they all coexist together. And they all intersect, but it's like, how do we make sure that we intentionally do programming? And that's what that's what happened. You know, back in--when we were there, our directors made it a point that we did programs and we had assigned teams. So, you know, one member from the CrossCultural Center, from the Women's Center, and from the Pride Center would work on one program, and we had to make sure that we were being intentional with intersecting those identities to include as many diverse individuals as possible. And looking at it through different lenses. You know, because we're like, just because we're (connection Issue; audio cut)-- So, like, we were always making sure that we're trying to like build those, those identities there. Stanley: Hm. All right. Well, yeah I ask that question to every interview(ee), and they do say a lot of similar things. The intentionality is what they always say. It's like they need to know what they're going to do with the center sort of thing. So thank you so much, Gerardo, for coming and I'll inter--, end the interview here. Cabral: Alright, Seth, thank you so much for your time and I look forward to, yeah, once you're done, please send, send that link over. I would love to listen to other folks. Stanley: (Laughs) I'm gonnna stop the recording here. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 14 2023-10-21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cabral, Gerardo. Interview transcript, April 28, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gerardo Cabral is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his Bachelors of Business degree in 2011. Gerardo worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2011. In this interview, Cabral discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center was a space that cultivated and enriched self-identity. It provided not only students with a voice but Cabral to begin living his true authentic life. This interview was conducted in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM and generously funded by the Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gerardo Cabral Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Geneva Martinot Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Subject The topic of the resource Broadcast journalism California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center LGBTQ+ life Education, Higher Human rights Student success Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Sacramento (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) 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Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CabralGerardo_StanleySeth_2023-04-28_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience LGBTQIA+ experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9da90704cc77e7e9c03910465dfda649.pdf 67d8cd755ed34dd9dac9c25137231b72 PDF Text Text DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 De Maria: Alright. My name is Michael De Maria. I am a graduate research assistant at Kellogg Library at CSU (California State University) San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing Daniela Carreon about her involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center as a student staff member and a student on campus at CSU San Marcos. So, Daniela first off, I just wanted you to tell me a little bit about your upbringing, your background. I wanted you to tell me about your community that you were brought-up in and a little bit about your childhood. Carreon: Okay. So, I grew up in Escondido, which is a very heavily populated Latino, Latinx community and an immigrant community. And so, sorry (laughs). So, yeah. But I went to school in Encinitas, and so Encinitas is probably about a thirty-minute drive, adjacent city. It's probably, yeah so it's a definitely more affluent and White community. And so, growing up in two cities, right, because I went to school in Encinitas but I was, my home life was in Escondido, I was often brought into like two different worlds. And not really knowing how to navigate either. And so yeah (laughs). De Maria: Perfect. And what would you describe those two worlds as in terms of characterization? Carreon: So, as far as characterization. Sorry (laughs). So, both worlds were definitely very different. As far as growing up in Escondido, I would characterize it as more low income, more people of color, more sense of community. And I'm thinking of community as far as like Latino-based, you know, community places. Specifically like, grocery stores or churches or just like where there's a higher population of Latinos. Whereas in Encinitas it was whiteness all throughout. There were pockets of like Latino people, but very, very small. And so I would characterize going to school in Encinitas as a lot more--I had to really integrate myself into the education system. I always had to behave. I also had to just, it almost felt like I was--I was often the only student of color, the only Latina Chicana Mexican woman, or a little girl in the class. And so, I think I felt the need to present myself to be the model for my community. So that is a lot of pressure for someone (laughs). And I felt the pressure through like my interactions with students, or even with my teachers, and like higher expectations from teachers who were Mexican. So yeah. De Maria: Got it. That is definitely really profound to deal with at a young age, for sure. So regarding your experience in those different communities, what led you to CSUSM (California State University San Marcos)? Carreon: What led me to CSUSM? Actually (I) did not wanna go to Cal State San Marcos (laughs). I also got into Sonoma State and I really wanted to, you know, leave. Because I felt like, okay, I've grown up in this vicinity. And actually my high school was very much--they never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I was an AVID (Advancement Via Individual Determination, college-readiness program) student for, from seventh grade to twelfth grade. They never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I had never even seen the campus until me and my mom drove by it when we, when I like accepted. But before that, I had never been on campus until like, I had to go for summer courses. So yeah, I did not wanna go to Cal State. I felt like it was going to be like high school because I'm going to class and I'm going home. So it was definitely like, how do I differentiate my experience from being just from high school? And so I was going to commit to Sonoma State, and I was trying to figure out my financial aid situation. And, you know I was gonna have to take out a student loan my first semester. (minor background noise) And I remember talking to the financial aid person and I just told her like, what is the population? I'm sorry if you can hear that (background noise). It was just like (laughs). De Maria: Totally fine. You're all good. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 Carreon: Yeah, so I remember asking her a question like, “What are the demographics of the students?” And during that time, I mean yeah the--you know we didn't have like TikTok, or Instagram wasn't as popularized. Snapchat was there, but not really. So there wasn't a lot of like social media digging that I could do based on the population for the students. I kind of just had to base it from what the website would say. And she told me, “You know a lot of the students here (at Sonoma State) are White, affluent, their, some of their parents own a lot of the wine countries.” And I was like, I don't really wanna be surrounded by whiteness or affluent, you know, people anymore. So, I decided to commit to San Marcos and it ended up being one of the best decisions I made. Not only financially, but I think just in personal growth, so. De Maria: Got it. And once you got to CSUSM, how did you become aware of and involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Carreon: Yeah. So, in GEL (General Education for first-year students) like I don't remember what it stands for (laughs) but it's one of the introductory courses. I was an EOP (Education Opportunity Program) student as well, so I think that helped. But in the EOP class we had to, one of our assignments through GEL it was EOP (and) GEL together. We had to like, find a campus resource center or whatever and interview someone who worked there. So, I had emailed Floyd (Lai; Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) and he doesn't remember, but I did interview him like my first semester. And I think that was like my first integration to the Cross-Cultural Center. And also, I was also involved in MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). So I think that was also one of the ways that I was able to be involved. And Floyd had reached out, I think to our MEChA co-chairs and for the peer mentoring program for summer 2015, to be a mentor to incoming freshmen. So, I did that. And then through that Lloyd, I think SLL, which was Student Life and Leadership which is now SLIC (Student Leadership & Involvement Center). And C3 or Cross-Cultural Center, like were together (laughs). So, they were hiring for the fall 2015 semester. So, I applied as social media slash administration. So yeah, (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first started engaging with it and working for (inaudible interruption). Carreon: Yeah so, oh wait, when I first started to, like, what was it-De Maria: Like when you first started to engage and work for the org? Carreon: Yeah. When I first started to engage for the Cross-Cultural Center it was definitely I think more, we didn't have like specific programs as far as like there was no Critical Cougars or Defining Diaspora or Activist Lab (programs and spaces within the Cross-Cultural Center). I think it was more so our general interests. And I wasn't a programming person, so I didn't--I wasn't really involved in that. My role was just like social media and administration. And so, what I did through social media was kind of just posting things that fell along the mission of the Cross-Cultural Center and more like educational based images. And I think that was also just my own--I did it because I was also in this like political learning and unlearning through myself. So I think I used the Cross-Cultural Center as an outlet and also to educate others. De Maria: Yeah, for sure. And you've mentioned your involvement in MEChA already so, I wanted to just ask you what the relationships were like between on-campus organizations at that time. Especially the Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 Cross-Cultural Center's relationship to other student advocacy groups like MEChA or the Black Student Union. Carreon: Yeah, yeah. We did work, I think with also KA, Kamalyan Alliance (Filipino & Filipino-American student organization). I think a lot of it was supporting them in their own initiatives of like what they wanted to do for campus. So whether it was, like our high school conference, I remember Floyd would let us use the Cross-Cultural Center to like put all of our things (inside) before like campus events. Afterwards, this was probably like two or three years afterwards, campus events (Events and Conference Services) let us use like their stuff, or how to lock up our things. And like printing, I think also like just like some funding if possible. And also just being kind of like an advocate for when or how we would've planned things. I think during that time Floyd was like the Multicultural (Programs) Students, like Rep(resentative). So I think there was a good sense of like alliance or community I think now has switched over, or at least it's switched over I think later on (laughs). To like, I think someone in SLL. So, yeah. De Maria: I see. Very cool. And student staff have often been mentioned as sort of like a catalyst behind the Cross-Cultural Center's general success. So I just wanted to know what your relationship was like between you and your superiors? Carreon: Student staff, or do you mean like pro staff (professional non-student employees) OrDe Maria: Or both. Excuse me. Carreon: Oh, my relationship with pro staff I think was good (laughs). They made, I think I interacted the most with like Floyd and whoever was in that office next to him. So whether it was the graduate assistant, or later it was (professor) Shannon Nolan who, I don't remember her exact position. But she worked a lot with TLC, Tukwut Leadership Circle (CSUSM engagement program). And then, you know, we would cross over with like SLL professionals, but it was rare to have one-on-one meetings with them. I think when I was more so a graduate assistant, I worked more closely with the director of the Latino (Latin@/X) Center and the Black Student Center, and the Pride Center, I think that was more aligned (laughs). And, you know, working together looked like being on committees together, program development, also working with their graduate assistants. And then working at least with like student staff was always a relatively good experience. I think we always try to help each other out in whatever avenue. I think it was, I think programmers always need the most amount of help (laughs) especially with like setting up, taking down, like publicizing, practicing you know their PowerPoint (presentation program) or asking how they should outline it. So, I was a programmer for two years, so, afterwards a lot of incoming or newer programmers would come to me to see what I would do, or how I would structure things. So I think just more so looking for advice or validation. De Maria: Very cool. And one thing you've touched on multiple times is obviously the importance of those programs as a way that (the) Cross-Cultural Center really got out to students and kind of affected people's lives. Regarding those programs, did you have any involvement with the Cross-Cultural Summit as well as Café La Paz? Those are two programs which seem to have been coming up quite frequently in my previous interviews, so I—(Carreon interrupts; two speakers) Carreon: Yeah you said, you said Social Justice Summit (diversity and activism event at CSUSM)? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 De Maria: Yes. Carreon: Yes. Social Justice Summit. I went to, to the Social Justice Summit when I was a freshman. So, that was also I guess my introduction to Floyd (laughs). So that was like fall 2014. And then I think I was a facilitator fall 2016, and either 2019 or 2018. So I was a facilitator for like two different periods. I'd never experienced Café La Paz (laugh). De Maria: Okay. Got it. Cool. And what were some instances of activism that you observed from the Cross-Cultural Center during the time that you were there? And I know that you were, you know serving positions as both an undergraduate and a graduate assistant as well. Carreon: Mm-hmm. De Maria: But yeah, if you could just take me through some initiatives that you guys launched or maybe some moments of activism you felt were pretty memorable. Carreon: Mm-Hmm. Trying to think. So moments of activism. Well, I mean the Activist Lab was really a kickstart to our, us being intentional of like having activist programs. And I think that came from the rise of like the Black Lives Matter movement and just what was going on politically. Also with like DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals), Trump being (in) administration and like more and more people being involved or wanting to be involved in community. So, I know we had like a Know Your Rights (political advocacy presentation) session and I know we had different like avenues of how to be an activist, cause it doesn't always have to be like out in the streets. I think some of the other initiatives of activism, or at least like intentional activism that I would say, is during the covid pandemic there was, we couldn't do Social Justice Summit. And so it was like, when was this fall twenty, fall 2020? Yeah. ‘Cause I graduated Spring 2021. So, I remember during the fall semester I really wanted to do something called Social Justice Scholars (CSUSM undergraduate social justice program). So (laughs), it was, for me it was more of an intentional group of like eight to ten students. And we were going to have conversations that kind of delved in a little deeper. Like, topics like what does it mean to defund the police? What does abolition, abolition look like? What is an abolitionist framework? Conversation circling like transphobia and anti-Blackness. And for me I think those conversations gave, or that specific--like Social Justice Scholars, which I think still continues to today, provides students who want to be, who wanna just know more in a safe and brave environment. I never had, I didn't have--well I only did it for a semester (laughs) until I graduated. But I think it allows or gives students a space, and there was nothing else on campus on it during that time. And I think also the conversations that I wanted to talk about are very political in nature (laughs), just like any other program that I put on, a lot of them were very political. So, I think the Cross-Cultural Center steering that was very one political in nature, but also just very quote unquote ahead of its’ times because were-- conversations circling like, what does it mean to defund the police and what does abolition mean? And talking about anti-Blackness as global and white supremacy are things that sometimes are hidden or want to be hidden within academia, or/and especially student affairs (laughs). So, I think those are some of the things. But as far as other avenues of activism, would be just inviting more speakers who have an activist framework. And I think paying speakers obviously as well is within itself doing activist work. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 De Maria: Absolutely. And those programs sound absolutely incredible (laughs). So very cool that you were involved with those and got to experience them and see firsthand what kind of impact they had. And from there I just wanted to ask you what your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center was? Carreon: Mmmm. My favorite memory? I have a couple. Do I have to choose one? De Maria: You could talk about it, you could talk about a couple. I don't mind. Carreon: Oh, okay (laughs). I think one of the favorite, one of my favorite, I had always told Floyd, we need more we need more like art (laughs) in the space. So I think definitely the mural that's now in the center. It took about almost, it took a long time to do (laughs), but it took about like maybe six months, a semester to really you know, paint everything, have it installed. So I think that was one of the favorite memories. And also having like my friends be a part of it. My friend is actually the one that's like hugging himself, (laughs) and he was never really involved in campus until he met me, so it's kind of funny to see now he's memorialized on the wall forever (laughs). I think one of my also favorite parts was doing Social Justice Scholars. I think it was also my last semester. I was writing my thesis. I think it was very like cathartic healing. Every two weeks we would meet with students and, you know I'm really glad that they were able to connect with us, and also collaborating with the Latino (Latin@/X) Center and the Gender Equity Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. And like Alicia and Laura, because they also like worked, worked on workshops. And what else is my favorite memories? I think like the day-to-day stuff of hanging out with some of my student staff. Those were probably some of my say, good memories. Yeah, (laughs) De Maria: Very fun. And I wanted to go back to something that you mentioned earlier in the, in the interview regarding you kind of mentioned a political unlearning process that you were undertaking during the time that you were at the Cross-cultural Center and that the organization kind of helped you process your way through that. And basically find a sense of enlightenment about it. So I just wanted to ask about that once again, since you have mentioned putting on like political programs and kind of making politics sort of like a focal point of the conversation about social justice. But if you felt comfortable, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what that political unlearning process was like and specifically how the Cross-Cultural Center kind of helped you become aware of it and embark on that journey. Carreon: Yeah. I think my political process of unlearning started with the murder of Mike Brown. So, it was 2014 and I was an incoming freshman. And so, a lot of it was social media at that time, ‘cause I didn't work at the Cross-Cultural Center. So, it was like Twitter and Instagram and Tumblr where I was really in this unlearning phase. And even then I've become a lot more radical in my beliefs. But back then I was eighteen (laughs). So and I was, you know, I was learning. And so it was an adjustment. I think what the Cross-Cultural Center gave me was an outlet to have conversations with people. And I think it's funny because now I'm in my pro--my PhD program in sociology. And I remember always telling Floyd like, “I don't know if I wanna be a professor or if I wanna work like with youth.” Because I was also a middle school AVID tutor during some time I was working at the center. And I think my desire to have critical conversations and help people or advocate for people, listen to people differing opinions of topics is what makes me want to be a sociology professor. And some of my programs, they were all political. I don't think they had to do with like, well they had to do with politics, but it didn't center on politics or policy. I think the first program that I ever did was what it means to be American. But I'm also like, it's been so long (laughs). But I had programs having to do unpacking, like Beyonce's Lemonade Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 album or talking about Kendrick Lamar's album at that time and collaborating with the Black Student Center. I also had programs about gentrification and colonialism, and topics on racism and classism. I also had like the “in” in feminism, like what is like intersection, the intersectionality in feminism. Cause feminism is very, could be very White. So collaborating with like Pride (Center), and I remember I collaborated with the sociology professor at that time as well. So I think my unlearning through the center was topics that I just wanted to talk about (laughs) cause I had my own vested interest in them, but also, who else could I collaborate with? I think that was where the Cross-Cultural Center possibly got more view or more like, “Oh, they're collaborating with other people and like inviting professors and faculty to join us in conversations.” And/or other student organizations and student centers. So. De Maria: For sure. That's awesome. And next I wanted to shift a little bit and actually talk about your studies at CSUSM. I know that you're one of the first graduates of the Ethnic Studies program, so I was interested in hearing more about kind of like the early days of that program and ultimately, you know, how that influenced your current career track and what you're interested in studying. Carreon: Yeah. So I remember it was my EOP, name was Kyle, I think he's at Palomar (College in San Marcos, CA) now. Kyle Owens. Yeah. He, I didn't know what I wanted to do (laughs). I had so many vested interests. I remember I came in as a psych(ology) major and then I changed to poli sci (political science) ‘cause I really was in this unlearning process and I'm like, “I wanna work for the government and change things.” And quickly did I learn, no, I'm just kidding. (laughs). But yeah, quickly did I learn. And then I switched it again and then I was just kind of everywhere. And I remember Kyle Owens told me about like social sciences and how I can have like three degrees in one. And I was like, oh, okay. So my primary focus was sociology. And then my secondary fields are political science and psych. So I had to take a wide variety of classes. And I also decided to minor in Spanish ‘cause I passed the AP exam in high school and I was like, “Oh, I only, I only need four classes. Okay, cool.” And I think I just, I remember I took Dr. (Michelle) Holling communication 485, like Latino Chicano Representation in TV. And that really sparked my interest in wanting to go to grad school. And having her be part of my life and mentorship during that period, that was 2018, fall 2018. And she had told us like, that ethnic studies had been approved through the CSU Chancellor's Office, but it's gonna take a year for it to like, you know, be in place. And during that time I was supposed to graduate. I think it was, I was supposed to, oh no, that was fall 2017 when I took her class. And I was supposed to graduate fall 2018, but I just didn't feel, or spring 2018, and I didn't feel ready to graduate in four years. So that's when I picked up my minor in Spanish. And then I had met with her, and she gave me different courses that would qualify me to be like, that were going to be part of the courses for Ethnic Studies. So, I just started taking extra courses to fulfill the major that still hadn't existed (laughs). So I was taking like five classes. I took a class at Palomar because I had to take Ethnic Studies 101 and SOC (Sociology) 101 already had qualified or, you know fulfilled my other requirements. So it couldn't fulfill this one. So I had to go to Palomar and take Multicultural 101 (laughs) Multicultural Studies 101. And then I took, when did I graduate? Spring 2019. I took seven classes, and a grad course including that one. Just, just for fun (laughs). But really just to fulfill the, the major requirements. And I remember there was a period of time where once the major had been approved December 2018, I was told that I couldn't do it (laughs). Because I had reached, I couldn't declare the major because they said that I had passed the 120 credits or something like that. And I remember talking to Dr. Holling and other people in CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral & Social Sciences) was like, and I told them, “Well, I've been taking these classes because it fulfills the major” (laughs). So like, why can't--so they did some, some work in the backend and I was able to declare it I think within like two weeks. And then I graduated in the spring semester. So I wish I was--the only ethnic studies course I did take at Cal State San Marcos, like through the Ethnic Studies Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 major was Ethnic Studies 301. So I had already taken Ethnic Studies 101 as Multicultural Studies at Palomar, so I didn't have to take it again. But I wasn't able to take theory or I think at that time they had like three or four other integral, integral classes that students would take. But Dr. Holling was able to just sign off. So. De Maria: I see. So my next set of questions are going to be more about the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on your life. So a little bit more abstract. But yeah, I just wanted to know how the Cross-Cultural Center ultimately helped you develop and express your cultural identity in the long run? Carreon: Hmm. Express my cultural identity in the long run, you mentioned? LikeDe Maria: Yeah. Carreon: I feel like for me, I've never been like super loud about my culture. I just kind of exist (laughs). I think the culture more so is being like outspoken and being, and like asking questions and asking critical questions and sometimes making people feel uncomfortable with my questions or my beliefs or ideas. So I think that's the legacy of like what the Cross-Cultural Center has provided me. And I've, I've gotten better. I remember Floyd always told me I'm not who I was before (laughs). And I think that's the culture that I still lead with, of just like being unapologetically myself. De Maria: Okay, I see. And regarding the Cross-Cultural Center as it is today, what role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific student advocacy orgs? So, like as other organizations expand, I guess like what do you hope to see out of those relationships? What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing in those expansions? Carreon: Mm-Hmm. For me, I think the Cross-Cultural Center has tried to fill in the gaps of CSU’s, CSUSM’s like limitation in student centers. So specifically for like Asian Pacific Islander students, we have like the Defining Diaspora (CSUSM student workshops) and specific programs. But say like, you know, if the--if Cal State San Marcos approves for an Asian Pacific Islander Center, I think the role of the CrossCultural Center would shift obviously. But I feel like we have, we, or they have worked hard enough to make themselves a distinction between all the other centers, specifically with like Critical Cougars, the Activist Lab and Academe and Me. So, as of, I mean I haven't been at Cal State for two years. De Maria: Right. Yeah. Carreon: So, I don’t know what the other student centers are doing. But I think that the Cross-Cultural Center, because it's not specifically identity-based, can mold itself to different things. And it's both a, a challenge and an opportunity (laughs) because it's like, what are, what can, what else can we do or how can we do it? But it gives us the space to do it. So. De Maria: Got it. Carreon: I dunno if that answered your question, (laughs). De Maria: No, no it did (laughs). And regarding the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center) and its interaction with the student community, what communities on this, on CSUSM’s campus, do you feel are currently underrepresented? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 Carreon: I mean, indigenous students, I think they’re still less than 1% of CSUSMs, like total student population. I know that the California Indian Cultural Sovereignty Center, and the American Indian major and I think minor, correct me if I'm wrong, you know they're there. But from my understanding, it's they have and the, oh my gosh, AISA, American Indian Student Alliance. I don't know how like, if they're still present. But that was always a factor of how can we bring in conversations, or how can we connect with more indigenous scholars and students. And obviously the population of Black students is still probably, what, three percent? And also like what is Black faculty or administrators, what is the percentage of that? It’s probably lower. And I mean, I know that the DREAMer Resource Office (programs and services for undocumented students) is still on campus. I'm not sure if they're in the same location. I worked at the DREAMer Resource office for about a year and a half, and it was a--it was small (laughs). So, I think, you know, bigger spaces, I don't think Cal State San Marcos really anticipated for how much student centers, or the need for student centers. But yeah. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And next I wanted to talk about a little bit about your current career. So I know that you're currently pursuing a doctorate, and have some aspirations to go into education yourself. But did you wanna also talk about kind of what you hope to achieve in the social justice space with your platform and kind of what some of those aspirations are? Carreon: Yeah. So my career goal (laughs), I guess is, yeah, per- like finish my PhD. I do want to go back to the CSU system. I would love to go back to Southern California. If, you know, Cal State San Marcos is hiring at the time, I will be applying. Or even San Diego State or any other like, you know, nearby college. My research interests right now center among understanding and examining the experiences of Latina women undergoing cancer treatment. And I am really interested in this process of emotions and looking at like joy and grief. And I'm looking and I'm wanting to look at identity adjustments, then identity disruption, and identity development through the process of, of cancer. And then the component of familial and community care, and possibly death and dying. But I'm still working through like the nuances of my project. And so, what I hope to accomplish at least with that--and I don't know what my unit of analysis will be like, whether it's going to be like the cancer patient or if it's going to be more so like the family. But something that I've always wanted to do, and this, it's similar to my work that I did for my master's thesis. cause for my master's thesis, I looked at like the mothering experiences of single immigrant Latina mothers, and like their relationship with their children. And so I'm really into this aspect of like emotions and processing and trauma. I think my next, once I graduate and if I have a book contract, I think my book would really center on emotions and care and like healing from intergenerational trauma or death. So I think that's my component to social justice, especially tapping into this concept of joy. I think sometimes in movements, and this is what I've learned through my unlearning process through like Twitter, is that joy needs to be a constant presence in our lives. In constant oppression and marginalization and racism and homophobia and classism, we still have and will need space to practice joy. And joy doesn't always have to be like this grand thing. And that's kind of what I'm hoping to look at in my project with women undergoing cancer. It's like, did I wake up with no pain? Am I able to, you know, eat my favorite meal? Am I able to enjoy time with my family? I think I'm, I'm thinking of joy as more little things. And I think that's also what social justice movements are now more embracing. Specifically I know like the, the concept of Black joy and reading of articles of within people who are trans, and what does trans joy look like? So I think that's kind of possibly what the conversation will transition into, especially when we have been healing through so much. And I say “we” as like Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 marginalized and minoritized communities, especially during the COVID Pandemic, the Black Lives Matter movement, and all these other things that are going on. And it's like, how do we still, how do we still practice joy? And I think maybe, you know, social media played a tool, especially like TikTok and people dancing on TikTok while there was a COVID pan- like while there was a pandemic and thousands of people were dying, and we still found moments to kind of laugh. So. De Maria: Super, super profound and incredible work it sounds like. I want to know what your biggest challenges are in terms of applying sort of like an academic quantifiable study to certain intense and qualitative topics like joy, death, love, and human experience. Carreon: Your question was, sorry, how do I-De Maria: How, how do you kind of apply a quantitative study to concepts like that and what are your biggest challenges of doing that? Carreon: Yeah. A quantitative study. Well currently I'm in a survey methods course (laughs). So, I am actually developing a survey to, it's a pre-interview survey just to get like demographic, demographics of my population and using it as a pilot study for my dissertation. But I do wanna ask questions obviously about emotions. And it's really hard, because I am a trained qualitative researcher. So one, I'm not a quant(itative) person. But it's also hard to quantify emotions. I feel like quant, quantitative research often strips the humanity and people's experiences, and just kind of diminishes them just to numbers (laughs). So it's sometimes hard to translate--or translate that I guess. But I know that numbers are important (laughs), right? It's how we get funding. It's how to make it palatable to larger audiences. And so, I'm still trying to figure that out (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And I was just curious because obviously the role of data and statistics also plays a huge part in social justice itself and trying to understand, you know, quantifiably where injustices are taking place, or how those injustices are manifesting themselves. So, to me it felt like a very one-to-one comparison of using a quantitative study to quantify those emotions that you mentioned in those cancer patients. As well as how some researchers, you know, have to basically fit statistical models to qualitative issues in, you know, underserved communities and things like that. So, just wanted to explore that a little bit ‘cause it was super fascinating. But taking things back to the topic at hand and to kind of wrap up our interview, I just wanted to know what the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with the Cross-Cultural Center was, and kind of how it impacted you. Carreon: You said my most important, sorry? De Maria: Lesson. Carreon: My most important lesson? De Maria: That you've taken. Carreon: Probably to, pause before I speak (laughs). And to listen. Oftentimes I have learned that people who have very differing conservative you know, or even like radical opinions just kind of wanna be heard (laughs). Sometimes I am not the person to listen, but I can redirect them to someone who wants to listen. But I think my role within, obviously when I was a student, I mean a student worker there, I would Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 listen. I think, you know, my role now as just someone who would be visiting the center, I could walk away (laughs). But, and even then I can still walk away as, as like now, but also wanting to pursue, you know, a teaching career. It's going, I'm going to get a wide variety of students with different opinions of, of coming to understand sociology. And so, definitely listening and pausing before I speak. I think a tool that I kind of took from Floyd, he would always ask me, “How did you come to that solution?” Or, “What made you think of that? And avoiding the question of, “Why?” And just trying to better understand people. So. De Maria: Awesome. Well, I wanted to thank you for taking some time out today for this interview. I think this is gonna be a great resource for anyone for trying to learn more about the Cross-Cultural Center through the lens of someone who is actually there. So again, this information was indispensable, and I'm really excited to see where your career takes you. And you know, hopefully what you'll be doing for CSUSM in the future to kind of expand the center and hopefully take up even more responsibility for the school. Carreon: Yeah (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. Thanks, Daniela. Carreon: All right. Thank you. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-11-28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Carreon, Daniela. Interview transcript, April 6, 2023. Description An account of the resource Daniela Carreon is alumna of California State University San Marcos, where she worked with the Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) and other student organizations such as MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). In this interview, Daniela discusses her involvement with the CCC, campus changes, and her current work & goals as a sociology PhD student. This interview was conducted in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM and generously funded by the Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniela Carreon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-06 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance California State University San Marcos. Ethnic Studies California State University San Marcos. Events and Conference Services Civil rights Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán Student movements Psychic trauma Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Daniela Carreon License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2c516f34374336a003467920b9e6a60e.pdf 5a59759182ca0ebad99808f33264f291 PDF Text Text DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 Diania Caudell: Is my lipstick okay? [laughs] Linda Kallas: Today is October 27, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Diania Caudell as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you, Diania, for being here, and allowing me to do this with you today. DC: No $uun Looviq [“My heart is good” in Luiseno. Our way of saying “thank you.”] [chuckles] LK: Miiyu. [“Hello” to one person in Luiseno.] DC: Miiyu [laughs]. LK: Um, we were—I just wanted to ask you when and where you were born. DC: Uh, where was I—April 16, 1948. I was born here in North County, San Diego—Oceanside, California, San Diego County. LK: And was your family an active part of any cultural community, such as religious or ethnic groups? DC: Well [sighs] yeah, we were, uh, part of the first indigenous people here in the Americas or whatever you want to say on that part. Um, we are part of the San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians, uh, been in the area as far as, uh, the written is concerned, you know, since they were written at the Missions, I would say the 1700s, because after that it was, um, mostly—before that it was all oral. So, um, we’ve been here over nine generations. That’s on the native side. LK: That’s on the native side. DC: Yeah. LK: Which means— DC: It means that— LK: On the other side is— DC: On the other side, the French side came to us, and he landed here in 1868. He was Hubert Foussat. Here in San Francisco. He was one of the founding fathers of Oceanside. LK: Is that why there’s a street named after him? DC: Yes. But that’s not at a—that’s not named after my great grandfather. That’s named, really, with—after his brother, Ramon Foussat. LK: Okay. DC: And he’s the one that had the ranch in the area up there, by Highland and Oceanside. Faustino Foussat had the land there in the valley, San Luis Rey Valley. LK: And there’s also an elementary school named Louise Foussat. 1 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: Yes. She’s—I’ve always called her as an aunt, but she’s really a cousin. Um, she was—she married a Foussat. Okay. Her maiden name is a Munoa, and her mother was, um, Theresa Gidden, Theresa Giddens, and, um, that’s another one that’s—she was born at Pala, and, uh,that’s another side of our family, my father’s side, that had been here a long time. That’s another whole side that I could talk about when you get to that point, if you want to, and his grandmother— LK: Okay. DC: —was born on the Marron Ranch in 1865, so— LK: So, your family history stretches way back in the North County. DC: Yes. Yes. LK: Um, this seems like a silly question, but how do you like living and working here? DC: [laughs] Okay, it—all I can tell you is that, um, I wouldn’t want to live anyplace else, you know, other than—growing up, I lived all over the state of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada, only because I’m, I’m a construction brat, let’s just put it that way. My father was a heavy construction operator, had his own equipment. So, if you go anywhere here in California for the freeways, he probably helped build those, all the dams here in California, uh, he was probably was working on those, um, also like Parker Dam in New Mexico, you know, even in Arizona, I mean, excuse me, Arizona. You have some of the bigger dams, you know, throughout [breathes in] so, um, my mother kept coming back to North County, because she was born here in San Luis Rey Valley. Her family, her family’s from here. My father’s family is from Pala. So, we kept coming back and, um, I think she put her foot down from travelling when my brother and I were in junior high. So, I graduated from Escondido High School, and stayed in Escondido until I got married, then I moved up to Orange County, San Juan Capistrano. I was up there for 40 some years, before I came back down here to my home. LK: Wow. DC: [laughs, then bell chimes] Oh-oh. Is that me? LK: Well, so you do feel part of the community, and within that, do you feel like you have a support network? DC: Well, if you’re gonna say support network, you’re going to have to look at the whole family, okay. Just with my great-grandfather. He had 11 daughters. LK: Wow. DC: And so, one of them was my grandmother, and he raised my mother because her father died when she, when she was a young child. And so, my great-grandfather, Faustino Foussat, raised her. So, when you have a large—just one branch of the Foussat family that had all these sisters and all these children, um, there’s a support group on the ones that were close [chuckles] let’s just say. My grandmother, um, was born in San Luis Rey Valley, uh, lived there all her life, uh, well not all her—until she retired, and then she went to Hemet. But, she retired from Camp 2 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 Pendleton. She was one of the first workers there, you know, in the pressing. So, network-wise, yes, we have a good network of family. But, they all kind of seem to travel away, you know, on some things. Still, today, you know, because it’s San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians which I’m part of, we have good support network, in that, within relatives. I mean we have—I have a lot of cousins, you know, and related on both sides. If we had to talk about that, I’m double related on some of them, and people just kind of wonder what—how did that happen? When you try to explain the story, uh, it gets confusing. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, we just want to do a big picture one day [laughs]. LK: That would be nice. Um, you said that you were in Orange County for 40 years. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, tell me about the work you did there. DC: [sighs] Ok. Let’s just start that—when I got married, I moved up there and, um, when I was here I was starting in accounting. Okay? I’m an accountant by trade. That wasn’t really what I wanted to do, but that’s how it ended up, you know, going into accounting. Um, so I did a lot of accounting for dealerships. Went back to college to get my degree into Accounting, and then went into accounting, business law, etc. so I stayed—like to work with numbers. I’m just good with numbers. And, so, I worked with dealerships, school districts, medical field in the accounting field. I didn’t become, later on, the weaver or in, with my cultural until I had to have a back injury. So, for 40-some years, up there in San Juan Capistrano, Orange County, I got involved with the Acjachemen people, the Juaneños there, helping them through Indian education, in the 70s, because that’s a story that— I can go into that, and I think I—it’s kind of long but shortly is that I grew up with being native, and the schools not teaching us correctly. Okay? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You read the books, etcetera, and you hear about how they were dressed, what they were, were they savages? Etcetera. And I would come home from school and saying this is not how we are. And then my mother, my grandmother, and family would say “Don’t argue, Diania, just let it go.” And so when I got married, and my two children, my son and my daughter, when they went to school up there in the Palisades, or in Capistrano Unified School District, they came home one day and said they were entitled to something other. It was like a Spanish program, Title II, at that time. And so, I went to the school to find out how my children got tagged into—in the Spanish community, when my last name is French, and it’s Caudell. And so, talking with the school principal, um, we found out that I followed that person that was in charge of Title II, and what had happened—how my two ended up coming with that notice is that this person went around the school to the classrooms and asked questions. Now, if you had a surname, with Romero, Sanchez, Alvaros, Valenzuela, any of those Spanish names, she automatically put them down on the list as a Spanish or Mexican. Uh, then, the other question when she got that from the roster, she then would ask “how many children here already know that their parents, or grandparents, 3 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 speak Spanish.” Well, my two automatically raised their hand because their father spoke Spanish. And he was taught that from his mother and also because of the community of San Juan Capistrano. You’ve got to think of the missions. That was the language that was taught to the Indian people. And, um, so that’s how my two got on there. And so I challenged that at the school district, at the, you know, with the superintendent, and, uh, they came back at me and saying “well, the last Indian person that was living here in San Juan Capistrano died in 1933, and he was the bell-ringer.” And I go, “no, that can’t be, because I’m here. I’ve got relatives that are married into the Juaneño or Acjachemen people. You still have them here, and so, um, I became an advocate [laughs], an activist, or whatever you want to say, and contacted my relatives there, that are—that married into the Acjachemen people, and, identified them. We went back to the school district, and went through all their rosters, because back in the 70s, when you’re ethnic, when they ask you that question, when you’re enrolling your student, your child, they ask you what ethnic group you are. Well, in those days—I’m saying those days, in the 70s, you only had, like, you had Caucasian, you had Asian—not even Asian, really. Mexican, I think. But you didn’t have the—what you have today is the Native American/Alaskan ethnic group. And so I always put us under “Other” as Native American, because I am a registered through the B.I.A., Bureau of Indian Affairs, and I have my certification, that I am who I am, meaning Native American. And, um, so I always made sure that my children would have that, going through there. So, we went through K-12, went to the registry of the school district and got all their cum files, or whatever they call them, those information files, and took home all the ones that were identified as Native American. A lot of them were not, because they didn’t want to, because it was passed down to us that you didn’t want to register as Native American because it wasn’t the best thing to do. So, they always put Caucasian. So, from K-12 in that school district, Capistrano High School District, we had identified 210 students. LK: Wow. DC: And so that kind of put us into the category of challenging the school. Uh, UCI had Kogee Thomas at that time. She was the Director. She heard about what was happening. She came down to become my mentor. With that, because she’s really high with the Seminoles and Muscogee people at that, then, and we wrote the first grant. We brought in Title IV, Indian Education Act, Public Law 194, in 1975. [laughs] LK: Wow. DC: So, I’ve been through this for a long time. We ended up forming the San Juan Capistrano Council, because they had to reform themselves again. They never left. They just said their leader moved, and they just kind of—in the 60s, or in the 50s, he left, and so they just kind of knew they were there, but they weren’t formally formed yet. So we reformed them. So today I can just tell you that in Capistrano Unified School District, they still have Indian Education. They have a Indian Research Center, kind of, for teachers, instructors, and parents, there on the Clarence Lobo Elementary school grounds. LK: Mm-hmm. 4 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: That if you wanted to study any Indian, not just California, any, any native person across indigenous person across the United States, in Alaska and Hawaii, etc., that you can go to that resource center, and that instructor, teacher, parent can pull the correct information that these tribes have handed in. So, that was one of my things that I did up there, other than just being an accountant. LK: Wow, that’s impressive. DC: Okay, that was in the community. [laughs] LK: Yes, yes. And then you mentioned you hurt your back and that’s what lead you to getting into basketry. Can you talk a little bit about that? DC: [sighs] Yeah, that was, um, a fall I had, okay? I don’t want to describe the fall, because it’s kind of, you know, it’s kind of stupid. I mean, the thing is when you hurt your back, um, I thought I’d go to the chiropractor. I went to work, and was working in Huntington Beach at that time, and I drove my car to Huntington Beach, went to sit down at my desk at the dealership, sat down and I couldn’t move. They had to literally pick me up, take me to my car. I called my chiropractor in Newport and, uh, he went to adjust it, and he says “This isn’t that, you know. This is something else.” And so they took x-rays, and he still tried the adjustment. I—and it got a point where I had to quit. I couldn’t—you know, I was losing to walk, etc. And the pain kept going through that, and then finally when they did an MRI on me, you know, they found out that I had―let me see, I’m trying to figure out how to describe this, because I’m not a medic, medical person— I was diag—rheumatism arthritis runs in our family on my dad’s side, my grandmother’s side. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Not too much on my mother’s side, but on, through my dad’s side. And so, I guess hereditarily, I have that in my system. What are you going to do? So, when I hit the lower back really hard, I accelerated the arthritis rheumatism in my spine. And so when that happened, that’s what they found with the MRI. So, they said “Diania, if you don’t have, do something with it, it’s going to get worse, and you’re going to lose a lot of functions that you normally can take that you can control of. And, anyway, I put it off a whole year. I didn’t want to have my back opened up. And so, I got to a point where I couldn’t deal with this anymore. And so, I had to say yes. They opened up 5, 4, and 6 of your vertebraes <sic>. They opened them up, and all I can describe it was a rotor-rooter job. She went in there, and just tried to scrape out all the rheumatism, or arthritis, away from my spine, inside my spine. And when she did that, she hit one of the sciatic nerves. LK: oh… DC: And uh, ‘cuz it, nothing’s replaced. They just sealed it back up again. And, uh, so when I came out of surgery, I didn’t realize that I couldn’t walk because the nurses tried to—they put those belts [gestures tying a belt around her waist] on you when you’re going to go and make you go to the restroom, etc., you know, when you’re [unintelligible] and when I went to get out the bed, I fell straight to the floor. Thank goodness I had belts on me, because the two nurses and 5 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 all the surgeons come running in, and I lost everything from the waist down. Had to learn how to walk all over again. It took me—they said “Diania, you’re going to have to learn patience.” And I’m not one with patience, let’s put it that way. I do have patience for other people, but not for myself. So, I didn’t know what to do and the Acjachemen people had sent me a newsletter, and my mom brought it up, and on the front cover of that newsletter that was next to the, my bed in the hospital was Lillian Robles. She’s an elder. She’s passed on before, but she had a basket hat on. And I saw the basket hat and I went “Oh, great. I guess to learn patience, I guess I can get into basketry.” LK: Oh… DC: And I never was in it. I was more in the Indian education. I was more into the helping with the activities. My mother was a weaver. My aunts were weavers, their jewelry, they’re always crafting with their hands. I was not. They always pushed me away, and said “Diania, you know, we’re need—we need you in education. We need you speaking for our people.” And so when I called, I looked at that, and I called Teeter Romero who was a top weaver from the Acjachemen people, and she—her and I were really close, worked together for years, with Indian education— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―Inter-tribal Council of California, I mean, the different areas, you know, for the people, Indian people. And I called her, and let her know that, um, I need to become a weaver. Well, she started laughing on the phone, when I called from the hospital, because she didn’t know where I was at. LK: She laughed at you? DC: Well, she laughed at me, because she said “you’re not a weaver, you know, you’re just not a weaver.” And then she says “Why?” And I says “Well, I’m in the hospital, and I can’t walk, and I need to learn patience.” So, when she heard that, she says “okay, when you’re able to get home and sit up in a wheelchair, we’ll come to you.” And, they did. I was with my mom here in Escondido, at that time. And they came down. About six months—let’s see, I had the operation in April; they came down in June. And I was being able to sit up in there. I was still trying to learn to walk. I was with a walker. And, they came! And they started, uh—sat down with me, and the first thing they gave me was raffia in one hand and pine needle in the other, and they had me doing the coiling, just to learn to go round and round and round and round, with basketry. From then on, it took me, you know, work—it took me almost two years to learn how to walk again, by myself. I was with a—I couldn’t drive. My mom was driving me all over. I had the walker. I got everything back in my left leg, but on my right leg not everything came through. And so, another six to eight months, I was doing acupuncture at Indian Health Council in Rincon, because I didn’t want to open up my back again, okay, have another surgery. So, I don’t have a lot of feeling in my right foot, from my calf, I think, down. But, I do think it—people don’t realize that, you know, that I don’t, but that’s what put me into retirement, really. LK: How many years ago was that? DC: Okay. When did 9/11, what year was that? 2001? 6 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: That was ’01. DC: Okay, ’01. LK: 09. DC: Because, yeah, April of ’01, because I remember I was still in bed and my mom got a call from her sister and my mom come running in to my bedroom, trying to insist I turn the TV on, and what she says—my mom was crying and I looked at that and there it was when I saw the airplane hit. They had that going on the towers and it was like looking at a movie. LK: Yeah. DC: Okay. That was just unbelievable. Okay? So, that was April, September, okay. It was— that’s how I can remember. I can never remember the year, but I just think it’s the year of 9/11. So twenty-oh-one, right? LK: Yeah, 21 years ago. DC: Yeah, so it was 21 years ago. I was still on—I have been on social security disability, because I can’t sit that long. So, if I get up on you guys, and take a break, then I’m sorry, you know, but that—My, my job was an accountant, and so that was sitting a lot. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then to get up and sit and get up is one of the things. So, uh, that’s how I got into basketry and I’m still doing that today, you know, on that. But, it’s taken me learning different things, you know, getting—you want me to go into California Indian Basket Weavers Association? LK: Yeah, I― DC: [laughs] okay, okay. LK: I was going to ask that—I—but I wanted to go back, just for a minute— DC: Okay. LK: —to Indian education. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, I think you said it’s still going on to this day. You still, they still have that educational program in San Juan Capistrano. DC: Yeah, they still have the Capistrano Unified School District and it’s going still strong, but they have to be the parents that have to want it. LK: Ah, okay. 7 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: It doesn’t just stay with the Acjachemen people. And they do have, I think they have a resource instructor there, someone in their administration, that they do go out for. Because it is a fund. It’s funding, it’s federal funding. All school districts need money― LK: Right. DC: ―and it’s a head count. And so, Capistrano Unified School District still has it, so does Huntington Beach, because they have a large community of the Cherokee Indian― LK: Oh! DC: ―outside natives coming in, because a lot of people don’t realize, that if they do start researching, you can go into 1963. They had the Relocation Act, of Native Americans. And, this isn’t taught in schools. This isn’t taught in—you know, for the general public, sometimes, unless you’re involved with Native Americans and their—and the different things. Well, 1963 they relocated Cherokee, Choctaw, and a lot of different native groups into California. LK: Oh… DC: You know, a lot of the Cherokees went to the Anaheim area, Huntington Beach area, and settled there. You had a lot of the Cherokee, Osage, and some coming down to San Diego. The largest Choctaw Relocation is in Bakersfield. LK: I’ll be darned. DC: So, yeah, it’s a—it was—it’s interesting, uh, how they did move native people around to get them away from their “homeland” and give them incentives at that time that “we can move you to California. You know, you can emerge into there” and stuff. And so a lot of it is kind of detrimental but with them, they brought their, they brought their culture and their tradition with them, which is good. LK: So, if you could see something change in regard to that educational program, what would it be? Would it be to expand it to San Diego County? Would it be… DC: Well, San Diego County had a big—has a big Indian education program. They did—they— you just don’t hear about it― LK: Okay. DC: ―um, in their school district. What it would be good to expand on there is that, um, to get it more to the public, to the other schools, okay. It takes a school district to want it. I’ve notified Oceanside. I’ve notified Vista. In Vista alone, a few years ago, they identified another 200, because now they have that on their information form of the child’s registers, you know, what ethnic group you are. And 210 had registered as Native American. It doesn’t mean they’re, you know, San Luis Rey or California. They can be from anywhere in the United States. And most of them that do register for their ethnic group know that they are, or they’ve been told that they are. LK: Mm-hmm. 8 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: But it gets a parent, it’s gotta be a parent to initiate it, to get a parent group together, and that way they can work with the school district. And then they can apply for grants. And then they can get the head count. Then they can get a resource instructor in there, or someone to work with the Indian education, and then it comes in with tutoring. That was one thing I did. I knew for, just for reading and math, at least. Get the children on the tutoring. They have the tutoring. They were pulled out of class or they brought the equipment in, if they needed equipment. There, Capistrano Unified School District, we’ll go back to that. It was shown as a need. Getting the general books that they need into the libraries. That’s how that resource center started, because the school districts will only go by what the state says, for state books, state history books, they―etc. The Native peoples say “No, that’s not correct. We will want our own books coming in.” So that’s what we did in the 70s. We brought in records. At that time, you didn’t have CDs or you know, what we had, you know, you had— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: LPs. And so we brought in records of the singing of the different groups. They brought in books that the teachers can get through, or parents could check out, you know, and working with that to get the education in there. And you have to have the school district to want to work with you. Um, we—it was a hard thing, with, even with Capistrano Unified School District, to do it. But if I didn’t have the help with Kogee Thomas and some of the top people that come from back east, that were very strong in their native cultural, that I don’t think that Capistrano would have done it either. ‘Cuz we challenged them. We challenged them, so— LK: But, how enriching for the students. DC: It is, but you got to have again, you gotta have a parent― LK: Right. DC: ―who would want that, so their student or their child can get that extra help. LK: There has to be a buy-in for it, with the parent. DC: Yes, and so it’s, it’s—today, in Capistrano Unified School District, the ones that do use it— I know my grandchildren went through it—they provided the computers at home for the tutoring. You know, they didn’t have to go to like a trailer, or be pulled out of class, and be taken, you know, like to a tutorial room like we did in the 70s. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, with the st—with my two children, my daughter used it and they had computers at home. The school district provided these computers, these laptops for the home that they could use and they got tutored every day, since they were in grade school. All the way through high school. LK: Wow. It gave them a really good sense of self. DC: It gave a sense of self, and they—at first it was “why do we have to do this for half an hour every day?” [laughs] I mean, but as they got older in high school, and then went to college, you 9 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 know, especially going through all those tests that you have to take for college, they, they were happy because they knew a lot of the questions and were able to answer them. Because of the tutorial they had, um, above and beyond what they normally get in school, in class. LK: Wow. That’s wonderful. So, you’ve already explained a little bit about your life’s path, how it’s evolved and changed over the years, so I was going to ask you if you wanted to share a little bit more about the basketry and CIBA, and I see that you have a little sample of one. DC: [laughs] Ok. When you said CIBA, I don’t think everybody knows what CIBA is, okay. You’re familiar with it. CIBA is California Indian Basket Weavers Association. Um, that’s another thing that I have been a member of and I’m on the Board for the last umpteen years, I would say—let’s just say the last 12 years. I know it’s been longer. Uh, but how I got involved in that, again, was going back to when I became basket—learning basketry and the plants, finding out that southern California doesn’t have everything that they normally have. If you know the county here, we’ve got 18 reservations here in the San Diego County alone and the people— where they were sent—aren’t on their homelands. I mean— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s not where they would have their medi—their medicinal plants, their foods, or their traditional cultural plants like basketry and other things, and so they had—the people had to go off the reservations, and to public lands, which would be your forestries, um, county parks, state parks, etc., even private land, to get the materials that they need for the basketry. Well, I had a problem with that because I didn’t understand that, you know, and why did they have the restrictions here in southern California when I found out that in central California, they don’t have that. In northern California they don’t have the same restrictions. But it’s because a lot of these central reservations or rancherias in northern California, too, is that they’re on their homelands. They’re rancherias. They weren’t like taken from one area and moved. Okay. They’ve had little rancherias, then. That’s what they called them, instead of reservations, up in northern California, spread out. And so they were on their lands and they had the traditional materials. LK: Oh, I see. DC: For example, you’ve got the Yuroks and the Hoopas up there. They’re in the forest up there. They have the red for—the, the redwoods. They got the forest. They’ve got a lot of their plants. And that’s their economic development. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But, that’s―they don’t call them reservations. They call them rancherias. Okay, so, so I started asking questions about that. You know, I’d say “how come, what for?” And I went to a gathering of CIBA, because they have a large gathering once a year for the basket weavers of the state of California, and I started asking “how come, what for, why is it that in California we don’t have this, when you have it up there?” And then I was told by a board member, “Well, Diania, you keep asking these questions. Why don’t you—we’re having a Board election. Why don’t you throw your hat in, your name, and we can see what we can do?” Well, I got elected. 10 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 You know, I mean, I didn’t expect that at all. And I’ve been on it ever since, since 2003. And, uh, so I became an advocate of, for southern California, to get in, our traditional trading, you know, gathering, etc., our traditional materials, you know, on that. And so, if I didn’t enjoy what I’m doing and have a passion for it, you know, I think learning about my traditional materials that we use for basketry, which is hard to find here in southern California, if you don’t get somebody to help you, you know, with that. And, um, so I think being educating people has helped me. LK: Um, the traditional materials are hard to find because of development? They’ve all been— DC: Yes, uh— LK: —plowed over or— DC: Um, there’s a—[reaching to her left for a brochure with the front cover reading “Indian Rock Project”] okay, let me just see, I’m just going to go through here. This here, this is Indian Rock Project, okay. This is something that we worked with the Cal St—uh, San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians and Cal State San Marcos worked together with Palomar College to do, to put this book out. This was done in 2003, which was a long time ago. But in here, in this book, let me just—[flipping through pages]—the—when you see what they—when you ask me about, uh—[looking at a particular page]—uh, where is it? [flips through more pages] And then you all—she’s probably going to edit this, but that’s okay. Because I was asked that question that you were just asking, and [still flipping through pages] LK: About the natural— DC: I found it. Okay, I had said here, on here “preserving tradition” and this is, you know― [turning the booklet to Linda to show her the specific pages]—I ended up being in the booklet, okay, okay, on this Indian Rock Project [shows front cover] You could probably go online, you know, and download it, because they don’t have any more of these booklets. But, when you asked me that question, I said [she’s reading from the booklet] “a lot of our things are being destroyed. If you look at our environment around us, we have development, development, development. Juncus and all the plants that we use for actually making the baskets are being destroyed. When we are out driving, we stop, we get out there, and we take pictures. I want to find a spot, notify the nearest reservations, notify the Forestry, notify the developers—“Can we go in? Can we pick? Can we transplant? Because if you are going to develop it and destroy it, let us go in.” That was a statement that I had made, you know, for—for, for, like an interview for this booklet. So— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then it went on [flipping through booklet again] into who I am or whatever. But, um, yes, the development. And so more developers now are finding out that if you do have—if you do identify traditional materials and stuff, they are now trying to hopefully preserve ‘em, or to have you come in and take them, or use them. But it is. Southern California is, gets hit with a lot of development because you look around here and you’re looking at it. I’m looking at the Mission San Juan—Mission, excuse me, San Luis Rey Mission. If you ever go by there, and stuff 11 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 like this, you’ll see we had wetlands there right next to it, and through the Lavanderia and right next to the Mission, what’s happening now? The Mission leased it out, or sold it, whatever you want to say—99-some years. You’ve got this big, huge retirement center going in there. It’s like a resort. They are built on the wetlands, and uh, there went something that was natural, native, etc., and it’s being developed. You drive around to different places now, here in San Diego County, and you’re seeing development. So, it’s really hard on— LK: Everywhere you look. DC: Yeah, and I just don’t understand, for me, where they’re getting their water from. Because if we have a resource of, of water—that’s one of the things that we don’t have here in southern California. We have to bring it in from other places. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: How can you develop and, and, and bring in people, more and more people, so how are you going to give them water? Feeding you know—if you’re going to feed, you’ve got the grocery stores yet, or whatever. You still can’t even have farmland any more hardly, but water. Water is essential for all living things. So, where they come, the water? I mean, the lease on the Colorado River is coming up. That was only a 99-year agreement. How are they going to negotiate that, if they want to stop the Colorado River from coming in? You know, I know they’re doing desalting plant, but that’s not even good for the ocean, you know, and not even good for us as people. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, that’s a big question that I ask. Every time I drive around and see these developments, you know, and it’s money. It’s politics and money. Okay, we can go on. We won’t go into that—[laughs] LK: Well, going back to the baskets— DC: Okay. LK: Can you tell us some of the natural fibers that you use, natural plants you use in the baskets. DC: Okay. LK: The traditional— DC: —Traditional plants. In the state of California, we have over 243 different tribes, 26 different dialects of language, and each one of the—in California, it’s kind of divided up, like in northern, central, and southern, and we all don’t use the same plants. Here in southern California, we basically use about five. And that would be Juncus textilis, which is a green reed that grows near water. It needs water. It’s like a tule, if you’ve seen tule in― LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―these wetlands, and stuff, or at these lakes, lagoons, but it’s not cornered or— Tule has three—is three-sided. Juncus textilis, is round. It’s a round reed, and it grows up straight. It 12 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 could—If you know how crab grass grows, it has, is that right? How it goes—what do you call that [gestures with her right hand, pointing straight and making curves in a snake-like fashion]— you know, you pull it out of the shoots— LK: Uh-huh. DC: —you know, like crab grass— LK: Yeah. DC: And, anyway, uh, depending on where it’s growing at and the materials that are in the— minerals—excuse me—that are in the soil, the bottom of the root type of thing, where the shaft comes out of there, the reed comes out of that shaft, it’ll have color on it. And it’s either from a deep light brown, mahogany color, to a deep red mahogany color. And, I didn’t bring any of those baskets with me. I was going to, okay, but maybe I should have, but I didn’t. If you ever notice some of the traditional baskets, you’ll see this deep red color or brown color— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That’s usually coming from the Juncus on the, on the end of the shaft on there, bottom part, which is in the ground. It’s green when you plant—It’s green when you collect it. You have to process it. It takes time. It grows with poison oak. That’s another thing. We call it—it’s our protector. The only time we go and gather the Juncus textilis is when we say the poison oak goes to sleep, and that only means that the leaves are gone. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it’s still going to be contaminated, probably, with poison oak. And that’s why we don’t teach it as much, because some people don’t want to be dealt with, with poison oak. That’s what, that’s the reed that we use for coiling. Okay? And that takes a process, splitting, etc., and getting it ready. It takes anywhere from six months to a year to even get your material ready to do a basket. The next one that we use for our start would be the center, which is the center of the basket, is yucca. And that, again, is that—what is it, yucca—uh, the Whippi? Or they call it the “Lord’s Candle.” It think you’ve seen it down by the road. You’ll see it growing on the hillsides. There’s different ways to use that. Some people will take the dead leaves, those great big green ones that they have and they grow pretty, even from the agave— LK: Mm-hmm. DC:—and the yucca. When you see those dead ones, or dried out, in the desert, etc., you can take those and you can soak them really, really big in a big tub, and then you take that, and you pound it. And you just keep pounding it, when they’re—you know, when you’re drying them. And they’ll—they’ll turn fibrous, like string— LK: Oh. 13 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC:—and that’s how you get your yucca sandals, and things like that, that they use in fiber, or your cordage. The other way you can do is with the yucca is you take the center of the new shoots that are coming out, before it becomes a flower in the stalk. [gestures up with an open hand] You take that, and you twist it, and you get about 30 or 40 small, small [gestures to indicate smallness of an object] little leaves, and then you take those and you shred ‘em with a needle—we do—or pound them, and uh, you don’t need to go out there anymore because you’re not going to make 30 or 40 bags in your lifetime, as far as I know. I’m not going to. But you have enough to where you don’t have to go out there and gather them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Then, deer grass. People use deer grass as a native plant for decoration or whatever, because it’s drought tolerant. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it’s not that Pampas grass that you see waving from that Africa—that African one is an invasive plant. I wish people would just take it away, and these nurseries—just take it out, you know get it—because that Pampas grass kills everything on the native plants. It just takes over. And deer grass is similar to it, but it doesn’t have that fan on the top. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And, uh, the deer grass, we gather that and we take the shoots or the stems on them, and we gather, and that’s what we coil around [gestures in a coiling fashion with both hands] So, the traditional, for the Mission baskets they called here that the Luiseño use, Cahuilla use, Kumeyaay use, the Cupeno use here in southern California, even the Chumash further up, and your Tongva and your different people. We do a coiling technique. Okay? So have you ever seen those baskets in museums, etc., you’ll see that one by one, they’re coiling. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They’re coiling the Juncus textilis. They’re coiling around with sticks that they use, which would be deer grass. And the center star that you see in the middle [creates a circle with her fingers on her left hand] is done with yucca. And sometimes it’s also done with Juncus on Juncus, or Juncus on Deer Grass. It all depends who the weaver is, etc. Since we have to gather that, and we can’t find it all over, you know what we do, we try to really work with the forestries, and private owners, and people. Try and get them to plant. It’s not easy to plant the Juncus textilis because it’s not going to grow everywhere. So, there’s different areas that do have it. If you want to see Juncus textilis, where it’s at, you can see it in the public, it’s in the public discovery center there in Carlsbad. LK: Oh. DC: They have a good—kind of like a little garden, that they have it growing there. And the deer grass and the yucca. And that was done because we worked with the Discovery Center years ago with Cal State San Marcos and the students. And we did all the planting there, when it was there. So, if you want to see that, I would go there and visit it. And you can see what the Juncus textilis 14 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 looks like. See, uh—[sighs]—but doing basketry is that—what I have here is samples. I did bring a basket. I just brought these hair pieces that I’ve made for my two granddaughters [shows beautiful, small round woven hairpieces]. Can you see them okay?— LK: Yes, yes. DC: Out of Juncus. If you see, this one here is a little bit darker, and the black there [now holding only one of the hairpieces, with a woven black ring in the mid-region of the weave, and gesturing to this area] is dyed Juncus, okay? Now, that Juncus, um, was dyed with—[looking at the hairpiece now, more intensely]—I don’t know, this was given to me, [chuckling] the dyed Juncus, so I’m assuming they did it with, um, elderberry leaves, okay, and um, put in the Juncus, and in a can, okay, or, or like a coffee can that’s all rusty. And what you do—you put the rusted can in there. You have your Juncus already split and put into the weaver, and then you put, um, into a coffee can [gesturing to show the size of the can] and it’s all rusty. You put some rusty nails in it at the bottom, and then you start layering it with the Juncus textilis. It’s the process. And on top of that you put elderberry leaves, and you keep going ‘til you fill it. [gestures indicating layers building up] Then you fill it with water. LK: Oh. DC: And then you let the water—and then you put that can somewhere so it can ferment. It’s like I tell you, it’s got to get all yucky and like, rotten, and what it is is that it probably turns black. And it’s—and you’re getting the iron—what do you call that? Iron oxide?— LK: Uh-huh. DC: —from the, from the nails and from the rusty can. Then when you empty it out, your Juncus is black. LK: Wow. DC: Dyed black. And that’s also what’s coming from the elderberry leaves. Another way that our ancestors did it was that during the creeks they knew where there was iron oxide in the soil, in the sand. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They would get their Juncus, and they would bury it in that sand. They’d come back, weeks later or whatever, and dig it out, and it’ll be black. Another way they do it, up in northern California, and in here too, is using walnuts, because we had, you know—black walnuts is a native plant of California. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And so they would take the shells, crunch ‘em up, you know shells, the outside shell, they’re called, and if you’ve ever picked walnuts, you know that your hands get black? LK: Yeah. 15 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: Okay, because that—on the hull—because you take that, well they’ll take that hull and chop it up, and then put in water, and put your Juncus in there, and with the walnut there, and they’ll turn black, too. LK: Wow. DC: That’s just one other way. It takes time. And they also use the acorn husk, or the shell of the acorn, and the black acorn, or any of the acorns, crush ‘em up again and put them in water, put the Juncus in there, and then you have to leave it. So it is a time consuming deal. So these are two headpieces I did. Now, when we get to the schools—when you get to the school— [holds up a small woven basket] this is a little basket that I’ve had for years. But this is not a native material. This material that we use for teaching is from, okay, rattan. Everybody knows what rattan is. Rattan has a pith in it. Rattan and bamboo look similar but bamboo is hollow. Rattan is got the pith. To get the pith out of the rattan, pull it, press it, and make cane. This is how you get cane. LK: Oh. DC: And so what we use here, is that you can buy cane in different rounds, or different sizes or gauges. You can get it flat. You can get it round. Uh, we get the round, and this is called Cherokee Single Wall twine. I call it, uh—we have our own twine, excuse me, but it’s not like this one, the Luiseño. And why I use Cherokee is because one of the easiest ones that the kids can use at school. It’s the closest thing that I can get to the river cane, from the Cherokee and Choctaw and the people there, in Oklahoma and that area, will use, because they go and pick their river cane. We don’t have river cane here in California. If we do have it, I wouldn’t want to go down there because it’s probably contaminated. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s got all those other things, and they probably sprayed it a lot with pesticides. And so this is what we teach in school, and I call it “Cherokee Single Walled Twine.” We make the starts. The kids can make one of these [holding up a skein of yarn] within an hour, even the adults, over two hours. And maybe not this size, maybe a little bit bigger. But this way, they don’t have any allergies or con― such so far, uh, getting sick from it. Because, I can’t guarantee our native traditional plants that we do use aren’t—it doesn’t have some type of pesticides on it, or some poisons on it that we’re not aware of. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And we use our mouth [wipes her right hand across her mouth] a lot for our third hand when we’re weaving with our traditional materials. LK: Because you have to keep them— DC: We have to keep them very moist. LK: Moist. 16 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: Everything has to moist. It has to be pliable. It has to be moist. If you’re going to be weaving with almost anything, even with cloth, even with weeds, even with flowers or stems or, you know, branches. We do use willow, though, okay? Aurora willow, or the willow tree. We make baskets out of that too. If you ever notice the big acorn granaries, they call ‘em, have you ever seen them on pictures— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —that the tribes had next to their kiichas or their ewaks for here in southern California, even northern California. They have great big acorn granaries. Those are made out of willow. They’re woven green, and when they’re woven green, uh, then they let―they dry. But do they use willow? Willow is a natural insecticide. It keeps the insects away from the acorns. And that’s why they have them high up on a stilt like, or platform, to keep their small animal away from them, or whatever. But if they do―these small animals try to get to the acorn, then they can also plug it up, or whatever. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But those acorn granaries can last for hundreds of years, you know. They’ve found, when they’ve done research, you know, in the mountains or at their villages, you’ll see a granary that is still up. But, it’s a natural insecticide. People don’t realize that the willow is a natural insecticide— LK: That’s interesting. DC: —to weave with it. LK: So, in traditional weaving, was it always the women, the tribal women, that did the baskets or did men— DC: I would say— LK: —create baskets as well? DC: Uh, yeah. Traditionally, mostly it was the women and the girls, okay? Because you’ve got to think about—before contact, especially here in California, we’re the last native people that were contacted as they came west— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―our baskets were used for cooking, for storage, for gifting, for birthing, for death. And that was our—they were utilized for everything. And that’s why they can say that “Mission baskets were woven so tight that they can hold water.” LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Well, yes and no. The only reason why they can hold water is that the deer grass in what they’ve coiled around swells. [laughs] LK: Oh. 17 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: So, but they also had the—and when they cooked in them, they used another plant that we do. It’s more fire resistant. And that’s your Trius lobata, or your sumac. And that’s kind of―it’s white. Have you ever seen baskets that have more of a white bottom to it? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That’s because it’s usually with sumac, and that one has a resistance to fire. But, only be— resistance, how can I say this—fire tolerant but not to a point. When they cooked in baskets, the cooking baskets, they were done with a stick that they’d keep moving [circles her right arm as if stirring], and they were used with river rocks, hot rocks in there. Central northern California used lava rocks a lot, but that had been tumbled in the rivers. But the ones that are here, we would probably get the smooth river rocks, and then you heat them up and then you put them into the basket, and you have to keep stirring them [makes a stirring motion with her right hand] into that food. Men probably did the baskets that were, um, that were for fishing, like the fish traps, or your great big, huge granaries,― LK: Oh, yeah. DC: Okay, on that? And they’re made out of the willow. Um, they didn’t make them—northern California, they made ‘em a lot of out of the different plants up there, the branches there. But, almost all of them are made out of willow, you know, because it was pliable to work with. But, that’s your bigger gathering baskets or fish traps, etc., you know. But mainly, it’s mostly the women. But men did do that. We do have men today that are top weavers, um, so, we even have one in our tribe that’s a fantastic weaver [chuckles]. LK: So, it’s a form of functional art. I mean, ‘cuz it is a form of art. That’s what— DC: Well, it didn’t become a form of art until it—until I would say, after contact— LK: Right. DC: —because it was a utility that we had to use, you know. It was something. LK: Right. It was functional. DC: Yeah, and I say, you know, when pots and pans came out, I, I would have been one that threw the baskets away. [laughs] Let’s use a pot, too, you know. LK: [laughs] DC: It’s just like when you gather your foods, you know. I gather the acorn and I make that wiiwish, we call it, the acorn mush. I use a processor to crack all my—you know, to mix it up, you know, and get the nuts, ground it down. You know, if you ever see these, um,—how can I say these—we call them gathering, gathering spots or metates are these big rocks that have the holes in them—the grinding area, they call ‘em grinding stones, grinding— Can you imagine the woman that’s sitting there, or a child, or whatever, pounding acorn to get a meal out of it, you know, to get it real fine like a flour. And, and how long they pound it up there to get those holes in there. How old! You can just tell the age of the—by looking at these grinding areas, or 18 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 grinding rocks that you see, how, how hard they must have done it, so it just—it didn’t happen overnight, to make those holes, you know, in those rocks. It had to be― LK: Right. DC: [gesturing in a pounding motion] ―years and years of processing. And, uh, I’ve tried it. We have two in our backyard, and I didn’t last five minutes. Raising that rock, that pestle, over my head and pounding the acorn, okay? I mean, I couldn’t, after that, I couldn’t raise my hand after five minutes, or even three minutes. My mom was laughing at me out there― LK: [chuckles] DC: ―you know, and I said “Our women must have had—the women must have had shoulders and— LK: Strong arms. DC: —biceps, strong arms, to do that, daily, every day, to get the acorn to get it ready for the mush because that was a staple for the people, you know, because the acorn—wiiwish, we call it—or the, um, what do they call it, with the Kumeyaay, um—we call it wiiwish, they call it, um, okay, I’ve got to think about it. I know it starts with an ‘s.’ But anyway, um, everyday. Because, see, that’s 100% protein. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The acorn is 100% protein. So, it was a staple and it was also a replacement for when they didn’t have any meat, you know, so it was always used. So, when these processors came through, they said “Diania, how come you don’t do it the traditional way?” I said “Uh-uh” [shaking her head] I said “my ancestors would have popped in that, those electrical things to plug in, they would have used it too.” I said “There’s no way I’m going to go out there and you know, [she and Linda start laughing] and pound.” I mean it’s kind of like a joke but it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s—you know, you know, when progress comes, I’m sure they, they would have—they wouldn’t have stayed with their old ways. That’s how I look at it. [chuckles] LK: Circling back, you mentioned a few institutions like Cal State San Marcos, The Discovery Center in Carlsbad, CIBA, and you’re part of the Pesticide― DC: Oh, Tribal― LK: ―with the National Parks? DC: Well, I belong also to the Tribal Pesticide Program Council through EPA. And that’s because of the pesticides and insecticides and stuff that effect our, our plants. A lot of people don’t realize that, when they see our traditional plants, they think they’re weeds. LK: Oh. DC: And they’ll spray them. Or also, that, um―there’s drifts that happen and if you have native plants that are growing near there, and you’re not aware of the native plants that are there, and if 19 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 how they’re spraying, and if the wind comes up [she makes a “whoosh” sound, and waves her hand in a broad sweep to indicate wind over field], the drift will go over there. There’s no signs that tell you that “Hey, we’re going to be spraying today!” LK: Mm-hmm. DC: County doesn’t even tell you that, I mean, unless they come around, you know. The mosquitoes, like in Central California, Sacramento, they post it, because with all those rice fields that they have up there, they have to. They have to do that, spraying for the mosquitoes. And they do it by helicopter. And I’ve been up there when they’ve done that, and they’ve got notices all over―“Shut Your Windows”, “Shut Your House”, “Stay in Your House Between This Hour and This Hour”― because they’re coming in and just sprayin’ and it goes all over your cars, etc., out there. In the University of Davis, Woodland, in that area. So, but they don’t do that too much down here, okay. So, when you don’t know about it, and then you see the plants and you’re going to go through it, you don’t know if it’s been sprayed or anything, or drifted on. And then you pick it, and then you get it, and you put it in your mouth, or whatever, you smell it to see if it is, you get hit. And I’ve had, that’s how I got into pesticides. I went to pick a plant that I thought that the only way you can identify it is to smell it, so I popped it [gestures breaking a stem open] like you know you see you pop it, and I stuffed it up one nostril and within five minutes my whole side of my face went red [gestures a swipe across right side of her face]. Rushed in to Rincon Indian Health Center. They said “Diania, what did you do?” I says “okay, this is where I was at.” And, I had a chemical reaction, that it was sprayed, that it somehow got sprayed. And so I was on―the first time I got steroids, and shot with steroids and it’s five-four-three-two-one [gestures counting on fingers], you know, you’re taking all those pills, five days. Found out that the golf courses are the worst [chuckles] people, or development, or whatever, that use herbicides, pesticides, insecticides, any type of your “cides” they said, because they want to keep their grass green and they want to keep their flowers beautiful and colorful. They don’t want any rodents. They don’t want anything upsetting that golf course out there. And if you have any native plants that are near there, uh, they’re probably going to get hit with that type of thing. And the golf course is another one that doesn’t tell you that they’re spraying. I don’t, I’ve never gone by a golf course that said “Hey, we’re spraying today. There’s a sign.” And I worry about the people that are out there golfing, okay. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, and I love to watch golf. Don’t get me wrong. I mean, I enjoy, I’m not a golfer but I love watching the Masters and stuff. And it goes through my head, when these guys are out there, and the women, you know, and they’re walking in it, but you don’t know if they’ve been told about the spraying, or you know, if they have an asthma thing, or, or something like that. So what happened was that I got into pesticide with CIBA. [chuckles, and reaches to her left for a brochure] So then I was working, we worked with a brochure [laughs, and shows for the camera a brochure, then reads the front of it] they call, it’s called “Pesticides: What Basket Weavers Should Know.” But, this doesn’t just tell you for basket weavers. It’s for everybody― LK: Mm-hmm. 20 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: ―okay? And the contact people [flips the brochure over, and points to the back side of the brochure] like for here in Southern California, you’ve got the contact if you’ve had this. It just tells you what to look for on native plants, if they look dead, if they’re doing anything. [opens brochure and looks inside] I’m trying to get EPA right now to try to start making us some more of these, but if I have some more, [turns the inside of the brochure to face the camera] like if I gave you, you know, some handouts that you could make your own, you know. They don’t have to be in color. [closes brochure, but still holds it up] But, it’s just an awareness about pesticides when you’re out there. And it, you don’t have to be gathering. You can just be taking a trail ride out there, or hiking. Your animals could come back with pesticides or insecticides on them, and then you have your kids rubbing them [gestures petting an animal], and playing with them, and hugging them, and then you wonder also why your child is coming out with a rash. Why are they coughing? Why are they sneezing? And so, most of the time, it’s some type of spraying and it’s out there. So I sit on that, that, across the United States, we’ve got all the tribes. But the bigger tribes like the, your Black Feet and your Crow, etc. you know, they, they lease their land, because they’ve got millions of acres on their reservations. So they lease their lands to Montanyo [sounds unsure]. One of that does soy beans, and corn, and all these big guys. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But they need to have the pesticides, but they’re trying to regulate it more so especially on native ground or Indian country, because, um, they don’t want to be digesting it. They don’t want this corn and everything that is going out to the public to be digested, because if you go on to a lot of your other farms and stuff like this, they’re not telling you what the pest―what is being used. But the, in the Indian country, they want to make sure it’s safe. They don’t want to get sick. They don’t want their own families to get sick. So, it’s a big political thing. But what had happened in northern California, how this—how CIBA became involved in the 90s, about ’93, is that the weavers in northern California get their―they use a lot of roots. LK: Mmm— DC: And they use a lot of willow roots. So, during the―on the rivers of northern California, they go high. But when they recede down, that’s when the roots stick out from the, from the banks where all the willow trees are growing. And so they go into the water, and they’re picking from the banks of the river, all the roots coming out [gesturing pulling something towards her]. LK: Uh-huh. DC: Okay? When you kind of think of, when the water is high [gestures raising up as in water level], this is where the roots are going. They’re going to get water for the, for the trees. Well, industry up nor―up, up river, where they call, where they, where it is coming down into the river, they were dumping chemicals into the water— LK: Hmmm— DC: —as a dump. You’re talking about the lumber mills, some of the uh, other industrial things are doing it. That’s what was stuck in the salmon, also. And so the weavers were doing it. Then 21 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 all of a sudden they were finding their elders the weavers were getting cancer around their mouth [gesturing around her mouth] LK: Oh, no. DC: And they were getting cancer inside. They were losing their teeth [pointing at her teeth]. And they couldn’t figure out why. Because it wasn’t just happening to just one tribe. It was happening to all the ones that, that were gathering, you know. You’re talking the Pomo, the Uroquois, the Hupas, the Kuroks. All the ones that use this type of material. And so in ’93, they found out that, they had EPA come out. They had this whole thing. They wrote a paper on it, a risk assessment, and found out that it was chemicals in the water when they tested the waters on these big ones. And so that started, for CIBA anyway, with the pesticides— LK: Huh. DC: —to get on there, to be more sort of a―― how can I― a public, you know, awareness. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You can only educate. You can’t stop it. You can only, you know. That’s why you have all these, um, lawsuits right now, happening in northern California and their waters. Look at the salmon. What’s happening, not just in California, but in Oregon and Washington with― because of the chemicals. Uh, you can’t, sometimes you can’t even eat, you know, some of that salmon because they can’t even go upstream, because when they come upstream, they come back sick. And the worst one is in Alaska. LK: Right. DC: See, people don’t want to hear about Alaska. But everything that we use down here in, in, in the “mainland” they call it, the chemicals, anything, okay, it all goes into our atmosphere, right? [points upward with both hands]. I mean, you spray, and it’s going to go up. LK: Yep. DC: Okay, when it goes up, where does it go? It goes to the Poles. [gestures as if touching top and bottom of a globe] North Pole, north pole is getting it mostly. South Pole is not as much, because they don’t get that drift like they did. But what it did, it collects up here [circles her hand in a rotating motion] in the atmosphere, and what it is, over Alaska in the Arctic area. That’s why it’s cleaning out too. Because it’s just going around, all these chemicals. It, it forms a warmth and a heat. And that why, that’s what’s, and now when it rains up there, it drops down [laughs, and gestures as if something is falling] into their land and into their trees, and into their plants, and they’re contaminated. And it’s all because of us down here, meaning, I’m saying “us”, mainland and you know, uh, North, Central, South America, all of us, you know, Europe, that using all these different chemicals and things like this, and drifts up [raises her hands up], collects in that atmosphere up there [circles in the air with her left hand], goes to the North Pole. It’s going around and around. It rains, or whatever, and it comes down, [indicates rain coming down, with both hands] and that’s why Alaska is having all those problems right now with their 22 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 food [gestures as if counting on her left hand], climate change, the heating, etc. And, uh, a lot of it is the use of chemicals and pesticides. LK: Well, what started out as a― DC: [chuckles] LK: ―lessons in patience for you― DC: [bursts out laughing] LK: You’ve expanded your knowledge to all aspects of basketry and, and working with other organizations. So, I know those aren’t the only ones you work with, though, and I can list a couple just to jog your memory. I know you work with Camp Pendleton. DC: Oh, well yeah, well, Camp Pendleton is― LK: And Daly Ranch. DC: Daly Ranch. Well, Daly Ranch was because [sighs] I went to, I went to be a docent. Okay? Because I had to find something to do after, you know, I, and that I, before I had my surgery, I became a docent, and I wanted to do the trails. Okay? The native trails. But when I had, after my surgery, I couldn’t do the walking anymore. And so they did have a small “Indian program” you know, on there. And one of the rangers I, you know, I, I love him dearly, he’s still there, we worked together, he was the one that was doing the Native American aspect of the Daly Ranch, what they would give to the public and school district. Fifteen minutes [gestures making air quotes] is all he would have. So I went through his training, on the docents, and he brought in a native person from souther―from Kumeyaay territory, I think, a weaver. I can’t think who the weaver is now. She did a display and stuff. And so Ranger Robert, I think I mentioned him, he did a lot, because of his sons were in Boy Scouts, you know, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Eagle Scouts, and they had to do a lot of the native areas of, on there. So he made a lot of the artifacts that the Daly Ranch uses and I use right now for exhibit. And he learned about the plants, and the foods, etc. Well, he went to serve wiiwish, acorn. And when he served it, it was great. And I just went “What?”, you know. And it, it was [gesturing as if saying ‘no’ with her fingers] I don’t know. And I’m going asking “How did you do this?” Well, he used the acorn, but he didn’t use the acorns that we normally would use. He used a different type of acorn. And how he fixed it, or whatever. And so, when we had our barbeque when we graduated from the docent class, I went home [laughs] and I made the ______________. This is supposed to look like, okay, you know, our wiiwish does that. And he says “well, teach me!” So we started working together. Then they asked me if I would come in and do the native American part, you know, with the Daly Ranch. Daly Ranch through the 7th graders and the whole school district, in Escondido School District, they run the 7th graders through there for 6 weeks, in the Daly Ranch, twice a week, like a Tuesday and a Wednesday, from 8 o’clock until 2. And we do about two hundred some a day. LK: Wow! DC: I’m the native American part of it, and they do plants, and then they do insects, and then they do the large predators, you know, and then they, the tricks. But, I’m the native American 23 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 portion of it. It started out as 15 minutes, and now all of a sudden, now I’m doing about 35 minutes, and just expanding it— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —to get them knowing that this was our first―you know, Daly Ranch is on the, one the land of native peoples. There’s, there’s areas out there on Daly Ranch that the public can’t see, that know that they’re―they live there. They have artifacts, etc., on that. So, um, and I got asked to, to do that. It’s all voluntarily. If I get paid from anything for doing that―I’ve been doing that going on 16 years now―it’s a surprise for me, because they do it through grants. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: I started out, like I said, volunteering, and it had expanded it to bigger working with Fred Wood, who’s a retired school teacher, you know, from a junior high, 8th grade. And I started with my cousin, Kathy Wallace, who’s our story teller now, and her son Brandon―he was about 9 or 10 years old―we would do it together. Well, it got to a point to where she expanded out [gestures expansion thrusting her right hand out away from her], you know, he got older. And so, I had Teeter Romero used to come down for me and help me, from San Juan Capistrano. And then, also now, I got it for myself and it’s hard to get people to want to take it over. Because the first question they ask “Well, how much do you get?” And I says “Nope.” I says “I can’t guarantee you anything on that. If I get paid, it’s a surprise for me at the end of the six weeks, depending on how much the grant through—It’s through a grant, that they get― LK: Right. DC: ―that. That’s to the Friends of the Daly Ranch. Even though the Daly Ranch is owned by the city of Escondido, this Friends of the Daly Ranch and the docents do it because of they want to. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The only ones that really get paid on there is the rangers, because they’re employees of the city of Escondido. LK: Right. DC: And uh― LK: But that’s not the only institution that you do work. You, you go to elementary schools and― DC: Well, yeah, I have. I did elementary schools. I think, you know, we do―like San Elijo. We’ve been doing that for seven years, and that’s during that one basket that I just showed you, with the Cherokee style. We do third graders there. [sighs] Before they built that new elementary school, we were doing anywhere from 2 to 300 hundred a day, in well, one day. We had it for 35 minutes, at 70, at the time. And then, because they had a program going. Kathy would be the story teller. They had adobe making. They had―and so these children are going [gestures in a 24 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 round circle with her right hand] all day, every half hour they’re going to another, another thing. I would have four weavers come in to help me. And then we would give a quick 10-minutes, 5minute thing with parent volunteers, to come in and help to, to and I think you’ve even done it before, [chuckles] to just help these students. And so you’d have all these third graders in one room, sittin’ on the floor, on these things, ten, ten to a circle so I know it’s seventy, because we had seventy cir―seven circles in there. We’d done seventy at the time, forty-five at the time, and then within thirty-five minutes, you know, they’re done. If they didn’t finish this basket [holds up small basket which can fit in the palm of her hand] in their time, then they would take them with them and complete it in their ar—in their art department students. So we’ve been doing that for quite a while. I’ve done the thing with Cal State San Marcos with their students up there, giving the demonstrations, etc., given a talk. And then even teaching the students, you know, the basketry. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Same thing with the senior center, in El Corazon [gestures to Linda]. LK: El Corazon. DC: We just did that for three days, and they really enjoyed it. LK: We cannot leave out one other entity, which was the Mission— DC: —Oh! LK: —San Luis Rey. How could we forget that. DC: [laughs] You know, she’s sees, she’s getting me into the basketry thing, here. Um, San Luis Rey—people don’t understand. San Luis Rey is one of the missions here that is not part of the diocese, or owned by the Catholic Church, per se. They’re owned by the Franciscan order of the Catholic Church. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Or, errr, I’m not—I’m a Catholic, but I’m not that kind. I’m not a practicing Catholic. Let’s put it that way. But, um, so they’re owned by the Franciscans. San Luis Rey, Santa Barbara, and there’s one more, and I’m going to better learn that one too because there’s three missions in the state of California that are not part of the “Catholic.” San Juan Capistrano is part of the Orange County diocese. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And they bring in the most money for the missions in the state of California. San Juan Capistrano does, because you’ve got to pay to get in, you know, and everything else. But anyway. The friars—well, they’re not—they’re friars—the Franciscan order, um, are there, at the San Luis Rey Mission. You don’t know that they’re there, because they’re not really public other than when you see ‘em walking around in their brown robes. They have a retreat there. They live there. They study there. They go through their schooling, sometimes, there at the San Luis Rey Mission. And I was notified by Gwen, the director, and Helena, whose at the museum, that they 25 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 were having a retreat there. And they wanted a activity, and so Gwen says “Contact Diania, and see if they want to do a basketry.” Well, Father David, or Brother David—he’s up at Santa Barbara now—he used to be here at San Luis Rey, and my brother used to work with him. And he knew I did baskets. That’s why he probably agreed. But these Franciscans were coming from all over the world. They weren’t just coming from the United States. They were coming as novices; ones that are almost going to graduate into their order; some that were graduated already into the order; some that were retiring from the order. Some they didn’t speak English. And, um, there was forty, almost fifty of them. LK: Forty-six. DC: Forty-six of them, and they were there for a week [chuckles] And they asked “Diania, would you mind doing, you know, a demonstration and talking about the basketry, or people, etc.?” My brother videoed it, you know, and I haven’t really even seen it yet. I think he gave you a copy, right? LK: It’s great. DC: Okay. I have to give Roberta—not Roberta, but Reinette and Ella Sue, I think, also. But, um, I says “Okay, I need four weavers, and uh, to do this.” And we did that in the back of the mission, and here I was expecting—when we were setting up, all of us were expecting—there’s Linda Kallas, Ella Sue Snyder (she’s a Acjachemen), Reinette (I can’t pronounce her last name. My cousin—Reinette Omah, Olvera, but I can’t pro—) LK: Olvera. DC: Yeah, but she goes by that Italian married— LK: Contreras. DC: No, no. It starts with an “A” [indicates a letter “A” as if writing in the air]. Anyway. LK: Okay. DC: And you, and me, okay. Linda was—Linda, who was going to interview me, she goes “Me?” and I says “Oh yeah. You know how to do these! You’ve been sittin’ with us for a while. You can come in here.” And we’re going to do the Cherokee style basket. I just gave a talk about our traditional materials, etc. So, we get all set up and here come these men, you know, coming through. You know, I, I was expecting them to come into—with their robes on. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, their brown robes. That’s what I was expecting. Here these men come in. They’re in shorts. They got T-shirts on that say “Surf’s Up!” you know. All these different things coming home with these hats, sandals, barefoot, you know. I mean, they’re coming from the retreat area, you know, tennis shoes on, and all different ages. And it was interesting because I’m going “Whoa, okay.” You would have, you would have put them on the street. You would not have known that they were friars, okay. And, uh, like I said, all ages. They had a—we had a 26 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 good time, laughing, etc. Like I said, we do have that, um, if you knew my brother did with that. They were all anxious. They made beautiful baskets. [laughs] LK: They were so impressed with you, and um— DC: You know. LK: They were so grateful and so full of gratitude for learning that skill— DC: Yeah. Well, we took a lot— LK: They really enjoyed it. DC: Well, we took a picture, a group picture, at the end and then we had all their baskets on top of that one rocker area. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And you can see that these baskets—[turning to her left, and reaching for something] I showed you this [holds up the little basket that she showed previously in the interview] and this is mine. But that doesn’t mean that you’re going to make the same thing like this. Your basket is, is going to be completely different. Even though they start out the same, your basket will be with what you create with your hands. [puts down basket] And so that’s what they were really impressed with, because we had some beautiful baskets. You had some real nice round ones [gestures a round object]. You had flat ones [gestures flat object]. You had long ones [gestures a tall object] and they just had a good time. LK: They cherished them, right? DC: Oh, it was a—it was—it was—it was rewarding, you know, on that. But that’s what happens when we do that. We did it with the seniors— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —out there, and they all thought that they were going to be making their own little ba— baskets that we showed them. And then when they finally was looking at it, even the men there, you know, everything was different. And so, that’s what I enjoyed about the baskets. Even with the kids, you know, they don’t— No two baskets are alike. LK: Exactly. And, expanding on that, we have the elementary school named Pablo Tac after a Luiseño native that was educated in the Mission. But also, you’re—you have an opportunity to demonstrate there coming up, correct? DC: Yes, coming up on November 4th, 2022. I’ll be demonstrating and so will Roberta— hopefully Reinette will be there—traditional weaving. We’re not going to be teaching. That’s probably, hopefully coming up next year. LK: Yes. DC: You know, on that. We just had the demonstration also at Camp Pendleton. 27 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, there. I’m a docent for the Santa Margarita Ranch and Lost Forest Ranch, docent there at Camp Pendleton. But I’ve been working with the Archaeology department since, uh, ugh, ‘90s with Stan Berryman and then Danielle [Page], and now Kelly Bracken is in charge of it so—. Because we have a lot of sites there on ran—on Camp Pendleton. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: People don’t realize it, that we’ve got over 600 some building sites there, and sites, and sacred sites, etc., on Camp Pendleton, so we’re kept close with the—they’re kept close with the different tribes. And since I’m the weaver in the native plants, I have a different aspect of it. I try to make that, if the plants are out there, please, you know, don’t do this with them, and stuff. So, they notify us that if we have native plants there, do you want us to move them. Do you want to collect them, etc. They do have a native garden there that we do collect the deer grass from, which is up there by the pavilion, behind the new hospital. Um, that way I know they’re not being sprayed, when we go there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: We just did elderberry tree, um, [chuckles] gathering from the berries, and I made some for your, for you for your husband. I thought I was making jelly, and it ended up being syrup. But he likes, he loves it, you know, ‘cuz we gathered there at Camp Pendleton, because [chuckles again], because then I know that, um, also those aren’t being sprayed. And, so there’s different areas by Camp Pendleton. Plus, with the cultural, okay. And why I started with the, the new General, the Commander-in-Chief, there, at –I can’t think of it. I just—I worked with her, and um, was—a— how?—docent there for the Santa Margarita Ranch. They were going to be the ones dealing with the party. She had her fiesta there, a couple weeks ago. And, um, I didn’t want to just be the docent dressed in the—how can I say this?— We dressed in this Spanish shawl. I don’t know if you’ve seen the docents from center. [gestures to someone other than Linda Kallas, seated to her left] You’ve been there, right? And, uh—Tanis. And, uh, we have that costume [still looking to the other person] or the regalia that they use. I’m comin’ in, because I put these on [hold up her necklace] and I’m, you know, trying to keep the Native American thing going there. And you heard me [points to person off camera, and continues to talk to him/her] this last meeting, you know, and Larry was over here [points to opposite direction, and laughs]. Uh, it’s that, uh, react? That we’ve forgotten, you know, on that. And they do think—they kind of forget us. But anyway, and so I says [still talking to the person off camera] “I’m not going to be a docent. I just—can I come in and do traditional weaving, you know, with our people,” with her. And she just said [shaking her head]—she says “heck yes, please, let’s come in” and stuff. So, um, I had the drapes on there. I wasn’t going to go San Luis Rey Band because we were all San Luis Rey Band members that were going to do this traditional weaving demonstration. But we’re all CIBA members also. So, I used this California Basket weavers —uh, weaving drape on our table. They put us up there, you know, with the rest of them, and, um, I had Mark, who is our weaver, one of our top weavers for our tribe. He had—he was demonstrating his baskets. We were all doing a demonstration, and, and appreciating that, you know, on there. That’s the last 28 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 thing we did on the traditional, you know, weaving thing with Camp Pendleton. Then we’re going to do this one November 4. LK: And then the Jubilation of the Valley Festival? DC: Oh yeah, we’re going to have, coming up in November— LK: —the Luiseño Day. Mm-hmm— DC: —Spirit of the Valley— LK: —Spirit of the Valley. DC: —with Studio Ace. And we’re going to be doing baskets there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And I’m going to be doing teaching the Cherokee style— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —okay? It’s not gonna—it’s not Luiseño style. And so we’re going to be doing, uh, [sighs] all day [laughs]— LK: And you’ve been invited— DC: —from 11 to 3. LK: —to do basket weaving at a senior dance at the— DC: Aw, come on now, [gestures pushing away from herself with her right hand] I know. LK: [laughs] DC: It’s just a—thank you, Linda. Um, that’s December 15th. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And that’s coming in because of the senior center over there. That’s just an activity they wanted us to do. Plus, we do basket traditional weaving in front of the Mission, hopefully, every 4th Sunday of the month. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But sometimes we don’t, because we have other things to do. So it’s almost a contact— they—a website, or contact one of us to do that. We do it at Rancho Guajome, but we’ll kind of travel with our weaving person. Um, one of the things I want to say is that I do get feedback sometimes from our own Indian people—“why are you in front of the Mission, Diania?” okay, you know. Because they see a pictures of the background where we’re weaving, and, um—“why are you doing it on the, on the Mission grounds?” I mean, you have this animosity with some of our people that have gone through the Mission system and their ancestors were really treated bad, etc. I’m not going to say the missions were the best things that happened to the indigenous 29 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 people in the state of California, or even in the other missionaries throughout the, throughout the different tribal people— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —in Indian country. But, I’m trying to tell them “I’ll let you know. I’m not there to, to praise the Mission. Don’t get me wrong, okay? I have my aspects with them, too, but I’m there— we’re there, really, to respect and honor our ancestors that are buried there.” I’ve got a lot of family that’s buried there in that old cemetery. I know our ancestors had built that mission and helped it. We’ve got a lot of ancestors that are buried in those grounds that aren’t in the cemeteries. When you had your epidemics, the pox, the small pox epidemic— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —there’s a lot of burials in, on those grounds at the Mission that had to do multiple burials real fast. So, we’re there honoring our people. I’m not there to honor the Mission. And, I have to let them know that. I mean, don’t get me wrong. I was raised with the Catholic there. My mom went to school there. My great-grandfather, he was part, you know. Every Sunday it seemed like the Father was always there in his house at the ranch there in the valley, having dinner. But I don’t really have that, um, hatred, or whatever you want to call it— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —to the Mission system. Yes, they know that they’ve done wrong. My brother and I sit on the committee for the 225 anniversary that’s coming up, honoring San Luis Rey Mission. I’m there on it, and so is he, to make sure the indigenous people aren’t forgotten. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They’ve got to have something that’s, that’s still representing, you know, them with the ethnic group. We have our powwow there that’s been there for 23 years, you know. We just haven’t had it since Covid. And that’s another thing that’s on the Mission grounds. You have some of the indigenous people who will not come to our powwow because it’s on Indi—on mission grounds. But, to me, that’s personal for them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The Mission has not been at a controversy for us. Yes, we know some of our ancestors were treated wrong, you know. You can walk in that Mission, and, um, you can see different things that, um, and the stories you hear, you know, and the longondria <sic> that’s going down there, where they had to do the washing and stuff. You’ve got Pablo Tac. You know, he came from that Mission, and was taught, who can, you know, going back to Barcelona, you know, and Rome also, and is buried over there, and died. But, um, you—we—how can I say this? San Luis Rey Mission, they, the Luiseños around the Mission San Luis Rey weren’t as— LK: It was a— DC: —progressive as 30 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: —Luiseño village, correct? DC: Yes, it was a Luiseño village there, but they didn’t attempt to burn it down like the Kumeyaay did, at the old—in San Diego. They burned that mission down three times [holds up three fingers]. But it comes with people, and how they took it, um, as a, as a rewards system, or whatever. Okay? They were fed! Can you imagine? I mean, ee were nomads and gatherers and movers. Meaning nomadic, it’s not like we moved all over [gestures in a sweeping motion]. It was like we went from ocean to the mountains [points from right to left, indicating movement from west to east] to gather and to the desert [points forward]. You see what I’m saying. As being nomadic. We didn’t have “a permanent” village. We knew what village we came from, but if we had to go, you had people that probably stayed there, the elders, and then the rest went out to gather. But we weren’t a warring people. Sure, we probably fought with the Kumeyaay and any others that came through. But with the Kumeyaay people, they were warring people. Now, they came from the, from the Colorado area. I mean, you’re looking at warriors, you know, came across, and when they were doing that with the missions and stuff, you know, you—they—it was on their land. They, they didn’t like it. They, you know, they, and they, to me, with San Diego Mission, um, and you read the history on that, it, it was, it was harsh. Where here, Father Peri — 'cuz remember, San Luis Rey was the 19th mission. It was the one that—it was at almost the end that it was built. Okay? And San Luis Capistrano really was the 2nd one. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then they come around there [circles her arm] and they built San Luis Rey, 19-what, a number 19, in 1798. Okay? So, you’re looking at all these other missions that were built way before that. Father Peri, he—his system was more with the native people. Yes, you could come, but he let ‘em build around him, also. But it was not the Fathers that were chased in the mission, the Indians. It was the soldiers at the—that’s who were supposedly protecting the Fathers. They were the ones that went out and chased the Indians down. They were the ones that did the punishments, when they had their, their, their soldiers—the ones that were in charge—they took it to their head, you know, I mean, to do the punishment, because as far as native indigenous people were below the Mexican people. You had the Indians [gestures making layers, indicating layers of hierarchy], then you had the Mexicans, the Spaniards, you understand, that, that— LK: Were higher, you know. DC: —hierarchy. So, um, I don’t have that too much on there, you know, with that. Everybody has their own. I have it because the missions only because they kept ‘em down [gestures downward with her right hand], and they did use ‘em—I wouldn’t—I don’t use the word slave, but they—I guess, slave labor. They were the laborers, where else they really didn’t—they didn’t get paid. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, on there. And then when the missions were done, and the secularization, when they did that, they were lost. They cried, you know. I mean, they were starving, because of that—and then what had happened, the ranchers got us here, Picos, the Marrons, the Couts, all of 31 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 the rest of them—they went and destroyed the mission. They were, they were tearing it apart. They were taking the beams. They were taking all the statues. They were taking the different things, and using them to build. You know, you get some of these ranchers, they have some of the beams on that are from—that are from the Mission. The artifacts. LK: Wild. DC: You know. But you don’t hear that side of the story. That’s why at Camp Pendleton and Rancho Santa Margarita and them, when it, they hid the stories and that—“Come on, you guys, you know. Pico wasn’t the best guy.” LK: Mm-hmm. DC: He, he was really one of those really against the Indians. LK: So, in addition to your passion and your education with the basketry, you are like a historian of your people, and the area, and I see that you brought some other materials. Is there anything you want share? DC: [again reaching to the left] Well, one of the things is that, uh, okay, and I know that for you, you’re trying to do this. I did study the language [holds up some leaves of paper], but since I didn’t—wasn’t able to have—speak to somebody, I went through the Pechanga — LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —and they sent me to Cal State—I mean, to Riverside, also to the international classes that was there. But since I didn’t have anybody to communicate with [gestures as if transmitting words to another person], it was hard for me. I can read it, and I can probably understand it when they’re—when they start talking to me, you know— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —get the words right. But I’m fortunate that I did have that. But this is one [looks at paper] of the things that I’m going to share—I’m going to be sharing this at the, uh, Spirit of the Valley, once they get over there. But it’s like this one here, okay? [turns paper toward Linda. The paper is laminated, and has a colored drawing of a deer, with the word ‘şúukat’] You hear that one What’s that? LK: Soosh-kah? Soo-kah— DC: Soos-kwaht, okay? LK: Soos-kwaht. DC: Deer. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Okay. I’m just going to be doing that. This is for the children. Ishwoot? [holds up a laminated drawing of a wolf with word ‘ˈíswut’] What’s that? Ishwoot. 32 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: That is a wolf. DC: Yeah, wolf. Okay? And then this is something that I use with kids [holds up a laminated drawing of a grasshopper with word ‘wiˈét’]. Whee-uht. LK: Grasshopper. DC: Or cricket. LK: Or cricket. DC: Yeah. Whee-uht. And so, you see in these names—why I use these, because you see in these names, being with the native kids now, that they’re being named this. [holds up a laminated drawing of a bear with word ‘húnwut’] LK: Hunwhat. DC: Hunwhat. LK: It’s a bear. DC: It’s a bear. Children are being named that now, with these, especially with these names here, with their—for the children. They’re proud of being called ‘hun-what.’ They’re proud of being called ‘soos-kwaht,’ called—proud of being called ‘whee-uht,’ you know, instead of just being called “cricket,” you know, on there. And so that was one of the things that I found I have been proud to do, you know, on that. And then, also, you have “Tuk-woot” [holds up a laminated drawing of a cougar with word ‘túˈkwet’]. Who is this? LK: A cougar or mountain lion. DC: It’s a cougar, okay? LK: Cougar? DC: You have ‘tuk-woot’ village, ‘tuk-woot’ village, ‘tuk-woot’ court, at Cal State San Marcos! LK: Yes, that’s right! DC: Okay? “Aush-woot?” [holds up a laminated drawing of a hawk with word ‘áşwut’] I know that’s not a [unintelligible] of an eagle, but that’s an ‘aush-woot.’ The eagle. LK: The eagle. DC: Yeah. And these are words that, um, are the alphabet, pretty long, you know, and considered more than 26 letters, that are important to the kids because they can identify with them. You know. I also have a coloring book, and you know, 1-2-3 and stuff like that I’m sharing. But one of these [reaches to the left for something else] that I want to end with, if you don’t mind, is that if, um, [sighs] in 2004, this is the Heritage Keepers [holds up a magazine entitled “Heritage Keepers”]. This is a magazine coming from the Ramon Learning Center [reads back of magazine] 33 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: Hmmm. DC: Okay. And, um, it’s still going on from Banning, California. And I wrote a poem [opening magazine, and finding page where poem is printed], um, and I wanted to read it and share it with you. Is that okay? LK: Yes! I would love that. DC: Okay. It’s that, um, I wrote this poem when I was doing the—learning the Luiseño language, and I had to write this poem because I was, um, trying to pull the words out [gestures as if churning things over in her head] of my head that I knew. And where I was at—it was Teeter Romero and I were up in Rainbow, up there by north of us here. And we were going to go out there to gather Juncus in Gomez Creek area, which is behind Riamb—Rainbow. You gotta go up the mountain. And when we were up there at the top of the hill—it was early in the morning, and we stopped because we looked out towards the valley towards the ocean [points to the left] and that morning it was clear. You can—you could—you could see the, see the ocean shining clear at the, at the other end, which is really not— [shakes her head]. But then you saw El Moro Kukutuk, okay? That’s another story. One day you might have to say it, but Kutukutuk too, is part of our creation story. And you can see that mound really clearly, with the ocean in the background, shimmering, and that mound there in the valley near Camp Pendleton, and Bonsall and Fallbrook area. In this part of our creation story, I got these things in my head as I’m looking at it, and I thought of our people. Because of the creation story, of trying to be saved. They were, they—we had the flood, also, in our creation story. And all I could think of, and was watching it, seeing the ocean shimmering, seeing that mound and thinking of “Oh my God, that’s what came up. The ocean came up.” And the people were running, because the water was coming in and coming in, and they had nothing to save ‘em. And the people from Pechanga were up there on their high point [points up with left hand], which is up there by Rainbow. If you ever go by Pechanga on the back way you’ll see the big hill that’s up there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That’s one of their lookouts, and I don’t know that there—the name of it, but it’s a point. And they were looking at the people, you know, the Luiseño people in the valley, running. And all they could do was keep singing. Now I don’t—I have the words to that song, that they had— that they started there. But, I don’t have that with me right now. But they were singing up there to hopefully save their people. They’re crying for them, and trying to save, save their people. Well, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this mound comes up. And so they were watching their people swimming towards it, and running towards it. And this mound kept coming up, and that’s more—El Moro Hill, or Kuktuk. That is a volcano cone. People don’t realize that, you know, we do have volcanic areas— [laughs] LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —in this area. And that’s a volcano cone that came up and our people in that valley, meaning my ancestors, okay—were saved. They were able to go on to Tuktuk, El Moro Hill, and 34 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 come up, and go up there. You can visit that here—uh, that mound or that little knoll or dell, if you want to call it. It’s on Indian Rock Road. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s Sleeping Indian Rock. It’s Sleeping Indian Road [scratches head] right there. Part of it’s on Camp Pendleton. Part of it’s in Fallbrook. And, part of it is owned by the County of San Diego. You can’t build on it. You can build on—near it, but you can’t build on the Camp Pendleton side, because that’s a blind—ammunition dump. And the Navy owns it. Fallbrook owns a third of it, and San Diego County owns a third. There’s a trail that you can go up on there, if you want to visit it and go, and there’s a hearth on the top that they do celebrations, ceremonies up there. My great-grandmother was born there, at the base of that El Moro Hill. So, yeah, we’ve got history in there, and, you know, our aunt used to tell—my aunt, my great aunt, used to tell stories, you know, about that— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —and they used to go, go there. But what I did was wrote a poem as I was doing, uh, looking at it, and I was thinking, my language is going in my head, but I could only pick out some words that I knew at that time. So it’s called "Naqmayam” and I was saying it—first saying it in Luiseño, then I’ll read it again in English, what it meant. LK: Okay. DC: Okay. It says “Naqmayam. Toonquay qawiinga/noo toowq ‘ataxmi/naqmayam/noo toowq ‘ataxmi heelaqal/‘ataaxum naqmawun! Popuu’uk ponakilvoy/yu’pan heth’aan/no$uun toonavan ‘ataaxum poomoto/naqmayam! Heelaxam!” Now, I usually sing this, I know. It’s just—it’s— it’s—I usually—it sticks after a while, I’m singing it, because I do sing it, at the Mission on All Soul’s Day. [chuckles] So, if you come on All Soul’s Day, on November 2nd, around 6 o’clock, between 6 and 6:30, I’ll be doing it and lighting the candles there, and I’ll be—I can sing it. And why I like to sing it, it’s sometimes I can hear my voice [gestures to her right ear], it bounces off the mission wall. It scared me the first time that it happened— LK: [chuckles] DC: —because I never had an echo come back like that. And, anyway, “naqmayam” means “listen.” “Toonquay qawiinga” means “from the rock on the mountain.” Naqmayam. I see the people. I see the people singing. People listen. The door was closed. Again it will open. My heart will weave among the people. Listen and sing. I wasn’t looking at them crying, you know. I was thinking about them singing, and being happy. And the door was closed at one time for us, but it was now opening. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then my heart, at that time, with the weaving, there, my heart will weave among the people. And, um, so it was kind of, you know—and they published it, in that—in that—in there— 35 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: It’s beautiful. DC: —It kind of gives the story of me. This has happened in 2003 [laughs]. And that’s how long ago, with the language. And I’m still trying to bring the language back, you know, I mean, we did it with—for a while when we were together with the Rotary Club. But then again I’m doing it, trying to get it back with people, and with our people, on that. It’s still going on at the Pechanga, with this fantastic Pechanga . I started back with them, way back when, and they started at the preschool. And then, now, they’ve taken it all the way up through their 6th grade there on their reservation at Pechanga. They don’t speak any English in the classes. All their instructors or the teachers have to learn the language. It’s taught in Luiseño. They’ve got an agreement with the school district of Temecula, that they follow them all the way through school, all the way through high school, that they have to release them at least, I don’t know how many times a week, to be brought in and taught their language, to keep it up. LK: That’s wonderful. DC: They take it all the way through high school. But, Pechanga has done really good. Pauma is also―has a class there, you know. Pauma does. Rincon does. Pala, uh, I don’t know if Pala does. But, each one has a different, like a dialect, you know. The only sad thing is when you get politics coming in. I’m just going to let you guys know. Politics is really deep within the tribes, on there, and um, I’m right, you’re wrong, etc. And it’s sad, because we’re all the one people, but that’s the way it goes. You’re born into being an indigenous people, not just for us here in California, but across the United States. You’re born into politics, whether you like it or not. So, um― LK: Well, I just want to close with saying that it’s been an honor and absolute pleasure to interview you and listen to you. I want to acknowledge that you went from accounting to weaving to becoming an educator of your pe―of your tribal background, and also a historian, and I think a big part of your legacy is to keep this out there. And you’re doing it pretty much on your own. It’s not like you have all this, um, Federal money behind you, like the federally recognized tribes, so― DC: We don’t have that [shaking her head] LK: ―you do not have that. You’re not federally recognized. But I just wanted to honor that in you, and thank you so much for allowing me to do this. DC: Okay. LK: No $uun. DC: Noh [bowing her head, and chuckling] I was going to say No $uun Looviq. 36 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 NAQMAYAM TOONQA Y QAWIINGA From the rock on the mountain NOO TOOWQ 'ATAXMI I see the people NAQMAYAM Listen NOO TOOWQ 'ATAXMI HEELAQAL I see the people singing 'ATAAXUM NAQMA WUN! People listen! POPUU'UK PONAKILVOY The door was closed YU'PAN HETH'AAN Again it will open NO$UUN TOONAVAN 'AT AAXUM POOMOTO My heart will weave among the people NAQMAYAM! HEELAXAM! Listen! Sing! Written by Diania L Caudell @2003 37 Transcribed by Melissa Martin � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Caudell, Diania. Interview transcript. October 27, 2022. Description An account of the resource Interview with Diania Caudell focused on her Native American ancestry as well as her past occupation as an accountant. Also included is her implementation of Native American education in the San Juan Capistrano School District and how her back injury led her to become a basket weaver. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. The end of the transcript contains a glossary and a poem written by Caudell in 2003 in the Luiseño language, with English translation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diania Caudell Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Subject The topic of the resource Basket making Education -- Native Americans Luiseño Indians Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Arizona Escondido (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) San Juan Capistrano (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Luiseño Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Diania Caudell License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 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Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CaudellDiania _KallasLinda_2022-10-17_transcript.mp4 Art and artists Community history Native American experience North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c59f8053d23c1136aee09f68020277ec.pdf 6cb14bd4ab0132b818c6e2422620a6fc PDF Text Text ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Jake Peirce: I'm speaking today with Mrs. Alexa Clauson from the Adobe Home Tour – among her many accomplishments – and so I would like to start with just a little background information, if you don't mind. Where are you from? What got you to where you could start with the Adobe Home Tour? Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I'm happy to be here since we only have an hour, I'll try to do the mini version. <affirmative> I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master's degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master's degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son – I had him late in in life – so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn't too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn't have historical societies; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary's in elementary school, there's another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who's just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He's Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I'm like, no, it's not. It must be his wife. <laugh> So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, “Hey, you know, Tom who's collection of books here, you're doing craftsmen?” Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, “We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they're all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.” And I'm like, “[O]kay, Tom, let's do a tour.” And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won't this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5”x11” piece of paper off a copier, and that's kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It's funny, and of course I was thinking, “[O]h, he'll get over it.” You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 1 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don't own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn't. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there's a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I'm probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were – in your role with the state parks – you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, –and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you're saying – what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. <laugh> But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn't as free to do some Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 2 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He's second generation – grew up in Escondido through his business and his family – they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes – although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning – in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That's my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he'll have a different, <laugh> a different take on it. Peirce: <laugh> No, that's absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don't mind. I'm very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved – especially in the beginning – how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren't just like “Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.” This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven't thought about it. Some of it was Tom's personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, “Should we call this one? Should we call that one?” but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, “My friends tell me you're crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?” <laugh> so maybe there's just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I'm really taking a guess at this; I hadn't really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence –the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother's Day home tour – so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn't as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn't just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it'll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother's Day home tour, and I think they're on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn't kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, “Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.” So, I really didn't think about it and it's not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they've seen their house, they get it. They really think it's something special. That's just my take on it. Peirce: Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 3 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, “Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.”? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this – like just a couple of mom and pop <laugh> people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections – is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it ‘cherry picked’ the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views – and many of the adobe homes have incredible views – and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They're bulldozed for these – you know, it's probably not polite to call McMansions; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they've reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There's no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it's almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our “Gee, you, you're not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.” Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather – Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father – they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don't know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 4 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn't, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor – and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere – and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn't the only place where Adobe houses were built – and are built even to this day – as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, “We’re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?” Clausen: Well, I think we would've loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you're a paid staff putting on something like this-Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we've been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society; there's a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we'd like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn’t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do – the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are – but we're restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don't have the facility to make it happen, whether it's personnel or whatever. There's always a friction, there's always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there's the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, “We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?” Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 5 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady – Mary Del May – she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I'll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, “Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That'll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.” So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don't let people stand too long. “Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.” <laugh> We're like, oh, we can't sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don't like, suggestions, they work, they don't, we've tried some things. So yeah, I'd say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you've benefited from, as you've done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that's really been honestly, and correct me if I'm wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it's moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people “Would you have your home on the tour?” They're shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here's some information, which they've developed a little “Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.” And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, “Hey, do you want to be on our tour,” came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It's always a little growing thing. I think you're right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Peirce: Absolutely, and that's incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like “I'd like to learn more about that” or did you fight any struggles? Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 6 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Clausen: You know, we're always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we're lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of... like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out “looky loos”: people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in – for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people's homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested – either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists – they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden – not by any means – but they're there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs; like that's what I'm just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we've tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: “The Romance of the Rancho” where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they're close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we've brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, “You know, we've always heard about Pauma Mission and we've never gone. It was a chance to go out there.” Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there's an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It's fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, “Hey, you're an adobe house, you can be on it.” Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We've had some very simple, honest homes and then we've had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we've had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that's always a consideration, although we've had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we've talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we're really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we've had homeowners who've come back and say, you know, now we're ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I'll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area – that were drivable. I think we had a Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 7 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John – our webmaster – sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you're 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say “Let's just go get lunch. We won't drive out there.” So we've tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven't missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We've had people who, as they've moved forward, say we just can't do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn't get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We've gotten two thirds of the way and we've had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we've had previous homes on the tour again. We've had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they've made changes. They've learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they're not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there's been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I've done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we've gotten really lucky. They're walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they'd come back as we're developing the history of their home, or they'd get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we've had a combination. I'd say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I've been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties – they were told about it by the realtor – the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they're looking at. I'd say I've done a good portion of the research. Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don't wanna say they're not important, right? They are important, they're historical in their own way. But it’s not like Greta Garbo lived there; they're just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I've been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let's say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we've been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we've had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled; they're still there. We've had homes where the windows were yet not removed; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 8 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era – Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized – how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century – we’ve found the Weir brothers and others – they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there's some amber inserted glass that's still from the original; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn't recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in; there's something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we're giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that's usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there's been extensive remodeling, we still recognize – I'll just use Weir for example because they're so well-known – some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven't really had homes that were entirely gutted. We've had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That's amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don't even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer; sometimes it's kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we're always thrilled for the feedback; not everyone's happy on our tours, of course not. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 9 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there's not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it'd be wonderful to run it two days. It'd be wonderful to raise more money, but there's just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people's understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we've done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We'd like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does... there are communities we still think we can keep going. Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you've created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved – this is something that's stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there's a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we'd all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they'll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven't touched on that you'd like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information – he's very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he'll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there's a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that's interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we're out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That's correct. Yes. Peirce: Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 10 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It's been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It's been fascinating. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 11 2022-05-13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clausen, Alexa. Interview transcript. April 12, 2022. Description An account of the resource Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alexa Clausen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacob Peirce Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) 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