2 10 83 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5af2f72446a3d7bf9cdf8db3952005c8.pdf defee5e2470badc29a52a43f13afacbe PDF Text Text SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Lucy Wheeler: Good afternoon. My name is Lucy Wheeler and it’s February the 23rd, 2023. We’re here to interview Susan— Susan Cupaiuolo: Cupaiuolo. Wheeler: Kupaiyalo. Thank you. (Cupaiuolo chuckles) Uh, this is in behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative being put on by Cal State and San Marcos and the Museum of History here in San Marcos. The history of our North County—and just as a preliminary to your story, Susan—the county of San Diego is a very unique situation in that it’s the ninth largest city in the United States, but it’s in the community of the county. The fourth largest industry is agriculture, and most of that, or 70% of that, is soon to be in the North County. Part of that agricultural industry makes it a–well, it’s the largest area in the United States with the most farms. Your story shows one of the areas of that agriculture which is kind of overlooked, and that is, in 2017 the county of San Diego estimated and actually counted that there were 5,000 small parafarmers, which is ten acres or less, and how they operate. And your story can bring us a wealth of information to that. So, with that beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself, your husband, where you were born, and what your interest in agriculture was. Cupaiuolo: (nods) I’d be glad to give some background on this. My husband was Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo. He died in October 2020 at the height of the pandemic. Uh, he was 86 years old. He had been in declining health physically and cognitively, and I just wish that he were here to tell this adventure, but I’ll do my best to–to share it. Um, I’m going to call him “Nino.” He grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. He had one brother. His father was from Naples and his mother from Sicily. Farming was not in his background, and, um, I’m setting that up as making sure we don’t have these assumptions about Italians who grew up on farms and have these big families, okay? Because that’s–that’s not the–the way it was for him. He had a master’s degree in international marketing, and he spoke four languages. He sold industrial instrumentation in Europe and in the United States for over forty years. His first wife was an American. She worked at the U.S. Consulate in Milan. She was from Riverside, and they eventually settled with their three children in Orange County. For the first time, they had a yard! You know. Growing up in Milan, apartment, maybe you have a balcony with some pots. But the garden that he had, and they had chickens and the kids loved it. He learned that he loved growing things. Nino and I met and married in Michigan, where I am from. I was teaching and he was working there selling to the auto industry. He was transferred again in 1988 and we moved to Orange County. So, how did a schoolteacher from western Michigan and an Italian end up with a sixacre farm in north San Diego County? Well, I have to say at this point that it was driven by Nino, who was looking for a place to enjoy his retirement. I was happy teaching in Huntington Beach, but his territory stretched from San Diego to L.A. and beyond and he was on the road a lot. On Friday, one Friday, in 1991, he was returning from San Diego and he stopped off at a–a nursery in North Vista and, um, when he arrived home he said, “I’ve found where we’re going to retire.” So, the next day we started looking, and we found two acres on a subdivided avocado grove off of Gopher Canyon Road. And the journey began! Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 At first, we commuted to the property on the weekends, and it–it was–it was perfect. It was hectic, but it was perfect. The Fuerte avocados there were in decline, and they were alive but failing, because after the introduction of the Hass variety, the–the cultivar, um, Fuerte fell out of favor. So, the 45-acre grove was subdivided into two-to-four-acre plots and put up for sale. So, what do you do with aging avocado trees? You stop watering them because avocados need 40 inches of rain a year. So, it didn’t take long. When the adjacent four acres became available, we were able to buy them as well and that included a grove of already-producing persimmons— Hachiyas and Fuyus. So, that gave us a place to start. We moved to the farm in 1994, fixed up a small house on the property, and over the next year we removed all of the metal irrigation pipes (chuckles) and those dead avocado trees. By the way, avocado wood makes great firewood. We were selling it and giving it away for years! Okay, enough background. What does it take to have a small farm? Well, besides resources like land and equipment and irrigation, you need physical energy and strength (chuckles) and a lot of knowledge based on research. And that would include—before you even get started—the microclimate, the soil, the water sources. And then you have to choose, based on that information, what to grow! Well, Nino wanted fruit trees. Okay. As I was saying, he was the driver of all of this (chuckles), so I was just along for the ride. But, he, in particular, wanted cherimoyas, and that was because he had the year before, out of curiosity, bought a cherimoya fruit at a market and he loved it. He saved the seeds, and he planted them in pots. In fact, there was a cherimoya tree on the property, right by the front door! After much research—this was in 1993—early days of the internet, okay? But, we learned that cherimoyas would do really well in our area. Not from seed, however. (indicates “no” with her left pointer finger, and clears her throat.) It–it took a big commitment, that’s for sure, because choosing to grow trees requires a longer-term outlook. Depending on how much time and money you have, you have to, um, invest, because the trees will take three to five years, or more, to produce, while row crops, like flowers or microgreens, for example, they can be seasonal. It was a big decision. It was a certain amount of trial and error—grafting, pollinating, planting. But, as it’s important to small farms in choosing a unique or niche product, not supplied (again indicated “no” with her finger) by larger farmers, it worked out! Now, at the time, that really wasn’t our focus, but it proved to be a huge advantage. A little bit about cherimoyas. They’re a subtropical fruit, native to the mountain valleys of Peru and Ecuador. It can be large, often heart-shaped. (Reaches for a fruit and holds it up for the camera while the camera pans in.) I can show you one. (Lays it back down, and begins to rub her hands together). They have overlapping scales—that’s what people call them, anyway. But, inside, it is white, and it has a custardy texture and it tastes like pineapple, banana, papaya, and in some varieties, even a pear! (Holds up a book with header reading “Gallery of Subtropical Plants” and contains a photo of the fruit and a cherimoya tree as well as textual information. Camera pans in on the page with the fruit image.) Southern California provides the–the best conditions in the United States for growing cherimoyas. The largest plantings are near Santa Barbara where most of that fruit is exported to Asia. The season is late winter to spring, so depending on the variety, that’s from November, December to March and April. The tricky thing Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 (rubs her hands together) about growing cherimoyas is the pollination. Each blossom is both male and female, but bees are too big to enter this fleshy flower. To get full-sized fruit, hand pollination with a paintbrush is the key. It’s labor intensive in June, July, and August. It’s not difficult, but it is time consuming. Now, (looks to her left, towards the fruit) part of farming has to be knowing the microclimate and (clears her throat) in general, in San Diego, people know the difference between the–the cool coastal and the warmer inland valleys. But (rubs hands) even with careful research on the–on the property, it’s–it can throw you some–some confusing conditions, because, uh, there are different temperatures. You can have diff–places with sun, and soil, and wind. On our property, which dropped off to a–a canyon, the temperature dropped dramatically, including frost, and the prevailing westerly winds were an issue. We were able to grow for ourselves in that canyon, apples, cherries, pears, fruits that needed a lot of chill time. But we weren’t selling those. (clears her throat, plane can be heard in the background) We also ended up, though, having to plant a wind break to protect the cherimoyas (chuckles) that we had planted. Who knew! But, we chose wisely because we chose Satsuma tangerines, which proved to be–be– very popular, so it all worked out. (clears her throat again) Some research was more scientific because soil and water can be tested for pH and salinity and minerals, and there are a lot of excellent resources out–out there that–that I need to, uh, recommend, because um,—I’m going to read this just to make sure I get it correct—um, the University of California Cooperative Extension has the names of labs. Okay, you have to pay for them. But, especially soil analysis is–is important, because you need to understand the plants ability to absorb nutrients. You can even take them leaves from your plants, and they will analyze whether they are taking up nutrients as needed. I also want to recommend specific groups like—we had the California Rare Fruit Growers. There’s a–a branch in North County and also one at Balboa Park. There’s the California Cherimoya Association and other fruits have their Associations as well. And, of course, the United States Department of Agriculture. And I can’t forget the Master Gardener Association, because they have workshops and blogs and so much information. And in the past 20 to 30 years, it’s been easy to find information, easier, because of the internet. And whether you’re planting, or pruning, or harvesting, a YouTube video can teach you (starts to chuckle) just about anything you want! And they’re fun! So, research is easier. But I still have to say that contact with people is key. The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department—that’s called the U.C.A.N.R.—is including–includes the County of San Diego Cooperative Extension and the Farm and Home Advisor—that’s by county. And–and another part of the U.C.A.N.R. is the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine, and (clears throat) it’s a living laboratory for U.C. scientists where they are conducting agricultural research. It’s a 200-acre facility, where they have outdoor events and demonstrations and classrooms. They have a glasshouse there. And they also have a huge cherimoya collection of trees that is just beautiful. And, of course, that was our connection to that place, besides the great people who are there. So, relationships and talking about them, kind of brings me to the selling part of all of this, because when we had enough fruit to sell, the Vista Farmer’s Market was a consideration. But Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Nino decided to try small, family-owned, independent grocers first. Not chains (indicates “no” with her left finger). They won’t even talk to you. Even Sprouts won’t buy from individual farmers. So, let’s find places where they will buy locally. Now, farmer’s markets do have advantages—meeting other farmers, learning about crops, meeting the public. But, they require labor time away from the farm and picking for unknown demand in advance. And that, with fruit on trees, is problematic. So as an experienced (chuckles) salesman, Nino knew to find out what the customer wanted, and he harvested by their needs! He would check their stock, or they would call. Sometimes he would deliver two to three times a week, especially during times like the Lunar New Year, things like that. That special attention is what builds relationships and loyalty. He also learned to sell by (chuckles) uniform size. They didn’t want all different sizes of fruit. They wanted uniform. But then he had to be creative, too. And he was always making sure that he was interacting with the produce people at the store, whether they’re the guys putting out the fruit or the managers, because that kind of connection does it all. So, (sighs) pre-pandemic, Nino was even doing free tastings at Frazier Farms which was one of his main sources, uh, sales–of sales. He–he would cut up (gestures cutting with a knife) cherimoyas and take them there and they weren’t well known but once people tried them, they were going to buy. Now, at one point, customers would see Nino delivering and they would stop him in the parking lot, asking to buy fruit themselves. He declined right away, partly because of the amount that they wanted. He realized that they were going to be reselling and competing with his customer right there in the store. So, it would be also disruptive to have these people coming to the property and wanting to buy, so, no. But it did get Nino thinking about sharing the experience of the farm. MeetUp groups were starting at that time. They were the thing, like signing up online for different activities. So, we started having U-Picks. We set up two timeslots on Saturday mornings, where people could sign up online, and they would come and Nino would give a presentation on the farm and the different fruits, and I provided samples of fruit and preserves and–and cherimoya ice cream and recipes. Oh, they loved that! So, it was a success. Families came with their kids, mostly from San Diego proper, you know. They were city people. But they were enjoying an outing in the country, and they enjoyed the property. They loved picking the fruit. So, these are people who wanted their kids to know where fruit comes from! Wow! (laughs) And the kids especially liked picking the tangerines. We made a lot of friends over the ten years that we did that, and we got to watch those kids grow up. They–they also liked feeding my chickens. Now, some customers—I put that in quotes (gestures making quotation marks with her hands) ‘cuz yes they were customers but they became friends and they would volunteer to come and help during the summer with the hand pollination and the–of the cherimoyas and so we–we had some–some really good connections that way. We even found a couple of paid workers from that group. Now, over the years, we had a lot of visitors to the farm. Um, usually by word of mouth or connections to the Farm Bureau, and that would include restaurant owners, especially Asian and South American, produce managers from independent grocers. I think of Barons Market, especially, because we had one produce manager from one store come and pretty soon all of the Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 stores were buying from us. We even had wholesale produce managers (rubs hands together), um, specialty produce in the San Diego. They–they sell to the public, but they would come and– and visit and see the farm. And we also had students come to visit. They were from Cal Poly Pomona and there’s a College of Agriculture Plant Sciences there, and they were taking a class. I–I remember Dr. Greg Partida, who retired in 2010, but he had a class on subtropical fruit production and he would bring his students on field trips to the farm. So, that socialization is so important because farming, even on a small farm, can be really isolating. There’s so much to do, day-to-day. People, since the pandemic, working from home, have found out how strange that is, really, that instead of going to the office every day, they’re– they’re at home. And–and that’s kind of like what it’s–what it is to–to be a small farmer, too. I wanted to talk a little bit about, um, record keeping, because it’s so impart–important in farming and with the advent of the internet and–and computers, it’s changed a lot. But, it’s still a–a beneficial skill set, whether you’re talking about taxes, or income, or expenses, or irrigation, equipment, payroll, any of that. But, um, another use for–for keeping track of–of information is monitoring the production of the–the crops, whether it’s by varieties, where they’re growing on the property, the quality from year to year. And an example of this is really in–in Nino’s participation in the–the Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program, which was twenty years ago. Now, traditionally blueberries were a cold weather plant that would go dormant every year. In California, the plants bloom year-round, and they wear themselves out. So, Nino, once again, wanted to plant things that no one else plants and there was a lot of research going on as to how to extend the blueberry’s range. Through the Farm and Home Advisor Ramiro Lobo, Nino was given four plants each of nine different varieties of southern blueberries. The soil pH that we had was way too alkaline and it had to be augmented. Temperature had to be monitored. Pests considered. The Farm Bureau was very supportive throughout all of this. They even ended up building us a netted structure to keep the birds off. But, Nino was instrumental in monitoring and recording the blossoms, the fruit, the production for each plant. They called him Mr. Spreadsheet (both she and Wheeler chuckle). Well, Excel to the rescue, you know? Because, in–and—I–I have a–a photo of him here, if you’d like to see, where he is, um, (shows a photo of Nino, camera pans in) taking the blossoms off of the blueberry plants. Now, why would he be doing that? You know? For two years, he did that, so that the young plants could use their energy to grow. And then he would take the berries from each variety and weigh them and–and count them, and that’s how they decided which varieties would be the most productive in southern California. Now, there were other farmers doing that too, but in 2002, California produced two million pounds of blueberries. Okay. Twenty years later, 53.4 million pounds of blueberries, sixth in the United States. This boom is due to technological growing skills and adventurous producers, and he was part of all of that. My part with the blueberries was, (clears her throat) when I retired from teaching, then I was in charge of the blueberries. Okay. But think of it this way. Four dollars for six ounces (gestures as if telling a secret)—I was selling them at school. So, that translates to twelve dollars a pound. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Now, what ev–other fruit is going to sell for twelve dollars a pound! In the past ten years, in the United States, the output of blueberries has tripled. And that’s in the U.S. alone. And the main states are Washington, Georgia, and my home state, Michigan. So, why is that increased so much. Because of the research talking about antioxidants. So, in ten years, they have become really huge crop. Okay, today, what country do you think grows the most blueberries? I’ll tell you. Peru! Is that somethin’ or what? Which, for me, is kind of a full circle because that’s where cherimoyas are from. Okay. So, I have just a little bit more, because I sold the farm after Nino’s death. I had three people interested. One couple wanted it as an investment, (said in nasal utterance) ehh. Another couple ended up buying a larger property in Valley Center. But, the–the family that I–I sold to love it there, and they’re trying to keep it going. They have no clue how much work it takes, especially with their three kids and two dogs, but hey. That’s–that’s–that’s their issue. They’re keeping it going, and I–I–I wish them all the best. Now, (clears her throat) when it–when it comes to innovation in farming, I guess that–that–that besides his interaction with people, innovation was something that–that Nino was very attracted to, because he was always trying new irrigation. We had installed a–a well, which saved on water. But electricity was expensive. So, we invested in solar panels. And in the year 2000, we were one of the fifty original installations of net metering in the–in the county. So, it was always somethin’, you know. We had a cell tower on the property. Very good income. Verizon had been pursuing us for several years for that. And finally we were able to get them to choose a location and (chuckles) give us a fake tree design that was acceptable that we couldn’t see from the house. So, always moving forward with something, that is the exciting part of changes and I mentioned these as evidence because technological innovation in all our lives, including farming, is key. What’s next? (puts up her hands, palms facing camera) I don’t know. Robots? (laughs) I don’t know! But–but Nino was able to embrace new ideas and change. And new farmers are going to have to do the same. Wheeler: Oh. Thank you so much. It’s so exciting because we are all changing no matter what we–what we do. The—I was really curious about—say more about how innovative—what–what made him feel that way, think that way. Curiosity coming from another country and embracing so many differences, but being innovative with that help, maybe in spite of it sometimes. Cupaiuolo: Well, he had many different abilities. I had mentioned that he spoke four languages. His father was an artist, and Nino was very artistic. So, he had a very creative part of his personality, besides being just so outgoing. And, um, he loved to–to try new things. Wheeler: And that is wonderful! The other thing that I think depicts all of this was the number of articles written about him and that he helped promote, and to let the world know how he was, um, being innovative― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Cupaiuolo: Uh-huh. Wheeler: ―in a very creative way. And that personality came across, and people accepted that. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: And there was so much camaraderie in it. Did you ever do tours of your farm? Cupaiuolo: Uh, yes, there were farm tours that were set up. And people, through the Farm Bureau, would come from different parts of the country, even. They would come on a bus! (shrugs) Because small farms, for a long time really, have been a focus of–of many different states. We even had the president of the University of California come on one of the–the tours, and wrote us a–a very nice thank you letter afterward, because they were interested in how much they should be focusing on the part of the University of California that was devoted to agriculture and farming. Wheeler: That’s great. Would—sometimes when we’re driving in the freeway and it’s pretty much a parking lot for a couple of hours of the day, and we get this vision of wouldn’t it be nice to be on a little farm or little acreage somewhere, do you have any advice to people who have that dream. Cupaiuolo: (purses her lips and blows out air, then clears her throat) Well, I think that it takes more than people think in terms of resources and, um, research (chuckles), and it–it’s not something to jump into lightly. It is possible to buy a farm that’s already operating, and that– that’s what the young family did from–from me, last year. So— Wheeler: And the cost of real estate has made that less available to a lot of people, too. Cupaiuolo: Well, that is–that–that’s (nodding) Wheeler: So much going on in this farming industry. That’s why it’s very important to have the history of how it has been, in order to build on to the future. Do you happen to have a photo of Nino? Cupaiuolo: I do! (reaches to her right, and pulls out a photo). What is–what’s happening to that. There it is! Wheeler: Oh, and he has some of the cherimoyas. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: That one is large! How large do they get? Cupaiuolo: Well, that was a three pounder. Wheeler: Mmm–wow. Cupaiuolo: Yeah, that–that would be fifteen dollars right there. Wheeler: Yes. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Cupaiuolo: And you know what? People would buy them! Wheeler: It’s amazing the costs of them. But now that I understand more about the–the detail and the–the labor intensiveness of it, um— Cupaiuolo: Course, if that–that wouldn’t all be fruit-less, if people didn’t love the fruit. So— Wheeler: Right. Exactly. Um— Cupaiuolo: But, hey, look at what we pay for blueberries per month. Wheeler: Do you know of any other orchards that are doing that right now? Or is it a popular— Cupaiuolo: For the cherimoya? Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: Not that I know of. I mean, there are people on the side. Competition. There was a guy in Oceanside who had purchased a cherimoya orchard and he had small, misshapen fruit. And he offered to sell it to Frazier Farms for three dollars a pound rather than the five dollars a pound that we were selling fruit. So the produce manager from Frader–Frazier Farms came to Nino and said, “I have this guy that’s going to sell me fruit at three dollars a pound, so that’s all I’m going to pay you.” And Nino said, “eh-eh.” (gestures with her finger as if saying no). So, he was then out there exploring new avenues. But, it didn’t take long before that fruit just sat in the store and wouldn’t sell. No matter what the price was. Because people had expectations of what they had seen before. Wheeler: Yes, wow. Very interesting. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: Thank you so much for sharing this part of para-agriculture, which is a pretty new phrase to a—phase for a lot of us. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. It was new to me. Wheeler: And the up—the fact that we are the largest county in the United States with that kind of urban and city mixture makes it even more diversified and more interesting to live here. It’s not wonder to me that the price of land has gone up as much as it has. It’s very desirable. The— We are, however, in my humble opinion, at a cusp of which direction are we going in the future. And how will agriculture look in twenty years from now. But, you’ve given us a wonderful foundation for how it came this far, what kind of innovation it took, what kind of knowledge. It’s not for the weak—physically, mentally, or otherwise. And I’m so appreciative of what you’ve done. Thank you so much. Cupaiuolo: Oh, it’s been my pleasure. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 GLOSSARY Barons Market (pg.5) California Cherimoya Association (pg.3) California Rare Fruit Growers (pg.3) Cherimoya (pg.2) College of Agriculture Plant Science [Cal Poly Pomona] (pg. 5) Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program (pg.5) County of San Diego Cooperative Extension (pg.3) Farm and Home Advisor (pg.3,5) Farm Bureau (pg.5) Frazier Farms (pg.4) Fuerte avocados (pg.2) Fuyu persimmons (pg.2) Hachiya persimmons (pg.2) Hass [avocado] (pg.2) Lobo, Ramiro (pg.5) Lunar New Year (pg.4) Master Gardener Association (pg.3) Museum of History [San Marcos] (pg.1) North County Oral History Initiative (pg.1) Para-agriculture (pg.8) Para-farmers (pg.1) Partida, Dr. Greg (pg.5) Satsuma tangerines (pg.3) South Coast Research and Extension Center (pg.3) United States Department of Agriculture (pg.3) University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department [U.C.A.N.R.] (pg.3) University of California Cooperative Extension (pg.3) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 U-Picks (pg.5) Valley Center (pg.6) Vista Farmer’s Market (pg.4) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2023-04-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview transcript. February 23, 2023 Description An account of the resource The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Susan Cupaiuolo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lucy Wheeler Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-23 Subject The topic of the resource Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_transcript Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e24d158796639884e608761a96307eb3.pdf 2610199d500af06717da987ed89ee24d PDF Text Text MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 MJ Teater: Hello. My name is MJ Teeter. Today is Tuesday, April 26th, 2022, and it is 3:00 PM. I'm here with Max Disposti. Thank you for joining me, Max. How are you today? Max Disposti: I'm honored to be here. Absolutely good. It's a beautiful day out there. Even though I haven't been able to go and see the light <laugh> <affirmative> I mean, at the center working, but we're all very excited. Yes. Teater: Yeah. Great. For the recording, can you introduce yourself what your name is? Your pronouns, when you were born, and what you do for work? Disposti: Okay. My name is Max Disposti, pronouns he/him. I'm a cisgender gay male and I was born in Rome in 1968, long time ago. And I am the executive director and founder of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. Teater: Awesome. And what did your parents do for work? Disposti: Oh, my parents now are retired because they're 85 years old. They're still alive and they live in Rome, Italy, but they were both working class individuals, actually my mom stayed at home even though she was an activist all her life, very active feminist in the city of Rome and my father as well. Teater: Well, that's awesome. <affirmative> Can you tell me about, maybe a little bit about your childhood and some of your educational experience? Disposti: Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that's five years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn't have any academic education, so to speak, they couldn't pursue a higher education, but also they were during the Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 1 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 war at the time <affirmative> even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there's always that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that's dominated by Catholic Church. Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives. When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on the street. <affirmative>. So that's my childhood. That's who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights, immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I'm in love with someone. I didn't want to lose them. <affirmative> so that's a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn't go back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn't share too much. Teater: No, that's great. I love this. Can you tell me a bit more about your education? What did you study? Disposti: When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can’t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that would have exposed them as well. Right. <affirmative> It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person, especially in a religious country like that, there's always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you're gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you're in Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, “oh my gosh, I would never make it.” These people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn't really for me as well. I went into university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my bachelor[s] over there, but didn't do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old, then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn't need the academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had to tell you it was money well invested, even though I'm still paying for it, <laugh> after so many years. Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 2 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that's my academic background pretty much. Teater: Man, you've lived such a fascinating life. <laugh> So you touched on it a little bit, but what was your career like before the North County Resource Center? Disposti: The north county resource center, I would say around 2007 or 2008 is when I made that decision to do what I do, even though at first was not a paid position. I needed to save as much as I could, reserve anything, because I didn't know where this was going to take me. <affirmative>. Prior to that, when I came in the U.S. even though I was very active and volunteering for different things, I was fortunate enough-- at the beginning I was working in hotel, the hotel industry, I used to be in San Francisco for four years. Then it was a little bit of dot com, I was doing a lot of translating because I speak Spanish and Italian. I was doing a lot of translating from one and to another with platforms, Yahoo platform and so forth. That was a very well-paid job. <affirmative> Even at the time that helped me out a little bit uplift my resources, but I wasn't documented at the time. I couldn't really invest into school or nothing because I knew I just couldn't do that to that point. And so I married my previous husband at the time in San Francisco, we decided to come down here because he had family members in the military. And when we moved to Oceanside was the place where it was cheaper and affordable. I did like the beach. I liked the fact it was Southern California. I bought at first into the life okay. Once I finish with my own immigration status, which lasted 10 years struggle. So that's why I'm very, not only sympathetic, but not many people understand about what it means to be an immigrant in this place where I had at that point, the money and the lawyers to fight the system and an education, but if it was running away from any other country from famine, war, or violence, there is no way that the U.S. will have offered me an alternative there is just no one, legally speaking. There is not an alternative if you become undocumented to fix your record, really not even if you marry someone. It's just not the way it is anymore. It took me 10 years. Yes. I feel privileged because I was able to go through all of that. In the process, I started working to make some money because my dream was always to open a community center. <affirmative> And as I was making the money, I joined some real estate firms. I was a broker and I became very successful because I was this guy that was very realistic. I didn't have dreams of screwing people over to make money. My dream was building LGBT center. I think people saw that in me, that was honest that sometimes I told people, don't buy this house because really too big for you, is not gonna be a good choice, because then you're gonna have this huge mortgage. I was having this conversation with folks, and I think the more I was honest with them, the more business was coming to me. I was doing really well at a certain point, I needed to make the decision to pull the plug and go into unemployment. Mind you I didn't say thousands of thousands of dollars, just enough to go by that unemployment lasted. I mean, I was unemployed for two years because the center couldn't pay me. I mean, it was me <affirmative> and starting a center I needed full-time dedications on everything from gathering resources, putting people together, dynamics of power that you encounter, opening the door and having someone there eight hours a day, it was a huge, huge undertaking. But I never felt alone. I always felt fortunate that people trusted me in the process. And also my leadership style has always been very sharing. The resources was never about me, my name and putting my name in top of the things I did, even though at the beginning, it shows a lot me and the center. My name is very linked to it, but mostly I started the center, but I always bring the honor, the credit to the many people, many, many people that made the center what it is today. So that's how it brought to me. I brought those corporate leaderships into this business. I brought my nonprofit academic research. I brought my life experience as Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 3 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 an activist. And I think everything just worked together. I was there for the right reason and not to rush things through. And I just had hope in my community here that things will have become like they are today or even more. Yeah, the dream's still on and we still have a lot of things we want to accomplish. <affirmative> Teater: In terms of the LGBT community, what was that like in North County? Because I know North County doesn't really have much of a presence as far as LGBT representation, as much as say Downtown or Hillcrest has. Disposti: <affirmative> It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We elected people that didn't wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they've done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to 2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they didn't have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn't believe that there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we're not doing anything special. We're just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn't realize at first the impact we're having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us, seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos <laugh>. And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a full part of the community, that's always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one, when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the mainstream of the LGBT community. <affirmative> Our board was composed by trans folks, the support Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 4 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks. And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt me. Now he's 22, so he's already grown up and he's a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don't exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to enhance the voices. So those that haven't been, that have been left out for so many years, because when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They were my friends <affirmative>. When people tell me, “Oh, I dunno, what's going on now? All of a sudden, everybody is trans or whatever,” say, “no, it's always been like that.” We always been around. I say, we, even though I'm a cisgender gay guy, because I've been blessed to be educated through the experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells me that I say “You haven't looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long.” I would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum, LGTQI or that wasn't the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors, no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to bring home what we’ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, “Oh wow, you guys were right. You were always there.” And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we're embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they're being ask[ed] to be part of our community because many of them are, and that we've been advocating with them now at the children hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the forefront and when we weren't, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three, four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it's part of everyday challenges is what I love the most to be honest, because I don't wanna come to a point where I say, “Oh, I think I know everything, and now I got all of my boxes checked.” Nothing else comes through when it's not true. Life is always moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That's how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives because they didn't go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson. We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn't wanna live anymore. There wasn't just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of pain. Some of us didn't have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. <laugh> Teater: Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 5 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 No, it's okay. I appreciate you sharing with me. I'll shift to maybe a lighter subject <laugh> for a quick second. What are some of the resources and services that are offered at the North County Resource Center and how have they changed over time? Disposti: Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn't have need assessment. We didn't know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, “Hey, if more than three people come forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?” they say that means it's needed. So, we'll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So, we're never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were. So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped in there because it was the only big room. And I say, “Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now they're gonna shut us down.” Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating more safety for our community. So sometimes we're like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years older than the kid that you're serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you're not there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, “Hey, I'm an active fifteen year old person, I’m sexually active with this person. Maybe they're at my age or a year older.” How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us opening their hearts because they knew we weren’t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we’re also mandated a reporter, right. We've done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because maybe they're dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If they don't agree with that, we don't let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is not a space where they're invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. <affirmative> That's one of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn't afford to close. We receive a lot of support from foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 6 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 can't find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-onone, “Hey, help me go through this,” family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but they're usually mostly social, like let's come together for an all queer and non-binary or let's come together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we're creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We'll have to respond to that. Teater: Oh, I love that. What are some of the challenges that you and the center face today? Disposti: I would say challenges, but also opportunities. <affirmative> I do believe that LGBT centers are the Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but supporting those spaces. I think it's a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to commit to, because as we know, as it's happening, if you take away resources from a Planned Parenthood, that's why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they're left to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people that they're being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn't <affirmative> for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be open nowadays. And <affirmative> the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And now it's eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And that's just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space for thousands of people. And that's true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth. <affirmative> While it's good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent. You don't want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it's important that, especially in California, where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don't provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually assaulted that are queer, they don't go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they're in poverty, they come to us when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse, they come to us because they know we're not here to judge. I would say that's why we’re the planned parenthood of the community <affirmative> [be]cause it's an essential vital resource. The challenges are that we're not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though they're in California. And we know that we're a little bit more protected here. We still have people at the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even though it's not here geographically speaking. That's the challenges that in a time where communication goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous administration has caused, we're still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 7 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that again, instead we are (inaudible) <affirmative> I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our favor, including a history of resilience, but it's tough. It's tough for a lot of people. <affirmative> (Unintelligible) will fight because it's value our own existence, but for a lot of people don't have the means the energy <affirmative> and we will have to fight for them too. <affirmative> I see a lot of challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight, which is total bullshit <affirmative> when it's actually through the opposite. I think that's the challenge of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it's part of the North American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. <affirmative> I can say that because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don't even realize the, the level of competitive individualism that's being created here in North America to a point that now we have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. <affirmative> I'm really concerned about those dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be <affirmative> That goes along with building an LGBT center. Teater: Yeah. You touched on this a little bit earlier, but given the history of policing with the LGBTQ+ community even in San Diego, how do you feel that police and sheriff trainings are received? Disposti: I'm gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and there <affirmative> I don't wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn't be there in my opinion. I don't have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don't like the status quo <affirmative> of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don't have any confidence in that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don't dehumanize you because I think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices with their family and many of them risk their life, <affirmative> for something that [they’re] living. I'm not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that we sit at the table I'm always very clear about: I don't think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don't think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like betrayed by the fact that “I'm a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it.” But the problem that they can't forget or separate themselves from the uniform they're wearing and what has represented for our, it's still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular. Any region is different, but-- <affirmative>. What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it's your word against Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 8 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 theirs. So that happens a lot of time <affirmative> on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it. That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn't say it's a statement to my organization, even though I would say it's a common vision. I think collaborations with police, it's important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted to be the force that serves the community, it doesn't protect status quo. I know some people might say radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our side. Teater: Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I'm not too familiar with their policing practices. Disposti: America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it’[s] like, “Okay, we don't need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It's not to lead the LGBT movements into propolicing know against policing.” Right? It's a different experience with police when I was, even though it was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) <affirmative>. There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It's a different comparison. Of course, I don't live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family's there and they're still active. I definitely have a sense of what's going on, but <affirmative>, it's just a different thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the normalcy, that being queer is not anything that's out there, but you know, you can be a police officer queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they're using them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD [University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven't earned that spot. I'm just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because I'm truthful. I don't beat the bush around. I'm just gonna tell I'm gonna work with you and everything else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that's okay with me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get money from policing <affirmative> San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose their will on, or social organizations and organizing. <affirmative> To ask, for instance, going back in the merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it's very not conducive of a good relationship. It's just a parade. <affirmative> I don't feel it's very-- so I'm sorry if I took you a little bit off, but this is-- Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 9 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 Teater: No, you're good. I'm right there with you. Disposti: It's such a current happening. Maybe people watching this many years from now, I wonder what they will think of it, but right now I feel that we're not there. They have to earn their space. And also let's remember talking about our region when you have a pride parade, you have people coming from all over the county, you have people coming from LA Mesa, Fallbrook in places where policing, the impact of policing on the streets is not as kind of transparent as it could be in any other spaces where we earn that. Right. Like in Hillcrest <affirmative> right. We need to be mindful of the experience of our queer people of policing in Chula Vista or other places, not just San Diego proper. What you see the police marching, is not everyone has the same reaction, and you cannot normalize policing by just marching an parade. You need to work every single day. So that's my-Teater: Yeah, exactly. So, what is the center's relationship with military members of the community then? [Be]cause I know they sort of have a kinship, but like they're different, but they're not, but they are. Disposti: Well. Because we cannot, I mean, I can tell you my personal stance about <affirmative> worth’s, and army, and the military. I think we spend too much money into it when this country struggle to support its own people that live here. Obviously, I'm not sympathetic about any choice of military that's military related, but when it comes to LGBT experience, I have to say the immediate impact of let's say the Marines here, the Navy on our immediate community is incomparable with policing. And what I mean, they're not doing racial profiling here in San Diego. They're not doing-- There is not a direct impact and <affirmative> for a city like Oceanside, which every family member has someone in the military. I would say that also understanding the importance of what they give and how they feel it. That is their dedication, their passion. We need to respect that. We serve a lot of veterans, a lot of military folks, but many of these folks, LGBT usually we serve them because they struggle through the military services. They went through <affirmative> health, sexual assault abuses that could never report from their commanders, <affirmative> transphobia, homophobia, punishments of any kind. We support folks because these are our people. <affirmative> It's not my place to tell them where they should go. We meet them where they are. <affirmative> But definitely it's a different experience. I would say I met amazing folks that actually have been a resource for the center and helping others from the army, from some of the Marines or the many, many veterans that they are a part of our volunteer team. I'm sure some of them might not share my views. These are personal view, again, not the center view, but definitely we did think about building a center in a military community. You could completely subject to it and be dictated on how to express your sentiment around military actions. You can be who you are and supporting the queer people around the world. That's my goal as a human rights and civil rights activist that I-- doesn't believe in any borders, or in any particular nationality, I focus on the help that my folks need in the entire world. If the America gets in the middle of that, then I will definitely denounce it but it's beyond the scope of the center. It's more my personal perspective. <affirmative> I think we are all connected in so many different ways. Teater Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 10 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 <affirmative> I love that. I have a couple more questions. I'm [going to] switch gears a little bit. What does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now? Disposti: <laugh> It means a lot. I can't believe it. And I don't look back too many times, when I do I get emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we're[employees] twelve. <affirmative> And just look around the table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn't even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of me in terms of, there's so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North County. I don't feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it’s just not, at this moment, practically possible. It takes resources. <affirmative> Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can't imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We're not in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it's not an easy thing to do. I would say I'm proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience, whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in so many different ways. So, yeah. Teater: Oh, that's so nice. During your time as an activist, and this'll be my final question, during your time as an activist, what has brought you the most joy? Disposti: Oh gosh. I don't think I can single out one. Teater: What were some of the experiences? Disposti: Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream. Really so many, I've been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center. The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don't mean in such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don't [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn't survive without our support that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know, you're on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can't pin it down, but mostly had to do with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So-- Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 11 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 Teater: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention before we sign off? Disposti: No, it's hard to recollect now, but I'm sorry for getting through the emotions. Teater: Oh no, I love it all. It's perfect. Disposti: You know, me? Yeah. I don't shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That's what I [want to] say that I know how important it's because we're doing an archive here at the center as well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it's a very tedious, slow process that takes years in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT center, but, you know, yeah. That's what we got. Thank you. Thank you. Teater: Thank you. Well, I'm [going to] stop the recording now. Disposti: Perfect. Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 12 2022-10-21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. 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Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Max Disposti Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource MJ Teater Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-26 Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights North County LGBT Resource Center Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant North County (San Diego County, Calif.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-14 Activists and activism Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience LGBTQIA+ experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ca6f54f3772da765d27df005f357db44.pdf e3319aac7d71629d4dc452c92d58367b PDF Text Text LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Peirce: Well, I would hope so. Otherwise, this whole thing is caput <laugh>. Okay. <laugh> So, good evening. My name is Jacob Peirce. I am a first year graduate student at Cal State San Marcos in the history program. And this is part of a series documenting historical figures, impactful figures in North County, San Diego. Today I'm speaking with, Lizbeth Ecke. And, thank you for being here. Let's start real general, real broad. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you were born? Growing up, just general information like that. Ecke: I was born here in San Diego, born raised in Encinitas hold, <cough> pardon me. I grew up in the same house that my father grew up in. I went to the same elementary school and high school that my father went to. So I was friends with the children of the, some of the people that my father went to high school with. So pretty entrenched in Encinitas, California. I did move away for college and work for about 13 years, but other than that, I pretty much lived in Encinitas my entire life. Peirce: That's awesome. And you said that you went to the same the same school, you lived in the same house and your family was pretty established at that point within the community. Was it difficult growing up with the kind of expectations, of being in your family like that? Ecke: There may have been individual instances, but no, not really. I mean, Encinitas was still a pretty small town when, I was growing up. I mean, Interstate 5 didn't even go through till I was about 11 years old. Most people were in flower farming like our family was. And, so I mean, people probably knew my name without knowing me, but, and that probably ended up mostly being good. But, so no, I mean I would say later on there have been challenging times when we, as a family have wanted to do things and we've gotten a lot of bad press. I mean, I know that my mother and grandmother, had a harder time than I ever remember having. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: Dealing with, harder in the sense of, people being rude to them or mean, or those kinds of things. But I can't say that I remember much of any of that. Peirce: Was there specific reasons for that treatment that they received? Do you remember them saying anything about that? Ecke: About, well, I know that there was a newspaper in town called The Coast Dispatch, that the man who owned it really, he didn't like our family. And I mean, I've heard various stories about why he didn't, the one that seems to have made the most sense to me, but I don't really know whether it's the real reason or not is because he owned a lot of, real estate right in Downtown Encinitas. And when they were putting through I-5, the original plan was to just run it along, down the coast highway. And, as it ended up being in some other, places farther north of here, and my grandfather was one of the people who fought pretty hard to say, let's not destroy all of the downtowns of all of these, you know, Carlsbad and Solana Beach and Del Mar and Encinitas. Let's put it inland a little ways and keep our downtowns. And my grandfather was on the winning side of that. I mean, it wasn't because my grandfather or grandparents owned any land, particularly in the right of way of where I-5 ended up. They just, he just thought it was made more sense. So he fought for that and again, was on the winning side. And so the guy who owned The Coast Dispatch was pissed off because he was expecting to make all this money from selling all of his right of way in Downtown Encinitas. There may have been other reasons that maybe that, you know, he was a powerful man in town. My grandfather was a powerful man in town Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 1 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 and they maybe just didn't like each other, I don't know. But, you know, I know that my grandmother, was treated poorly at times, by people that, you know, she was somebody who really cared about and, tried to be helpful. And, you know, people that during the depression that needed food, bringing food to the school and doing things like that, and there was any number of people that didn't want her help because she was an Ecke and that was painful for her. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I can imagine like that's a wild thing to think about. Did you, speaking of your mother and your grandmother, what inspiration, if any, did you take from [th]em, in your personal life going forward as a professional woman, as someone who growing up in this family, did you take any lessons from them? And, and if so, how did you kind of, feel it, that you represented the family in that way? Ecke: Well, you know, my grandmother got married at 19 and had her first kid at 20, so she didn't ever, she didn't have anything more than a high school education. My mother did go to San Diego State and, did have a degree. But both of them, along with, my father, maybe a little less, my grandfather was very big <unintelligible> [into] giving back. And it was always something that my parents talked about, but they also, they didn't just talk about it. They did it. And they, my grandmother was very involved with the Solana Beach Presbyterian Church and did a lot out of help through that, there was an orphanage down in Tijuana that she was, very supportive of. And I remember her when I was a child, her loading up her car and barreling on down to Tijuana to bring them whatever it was that she had in her car that week or month or whatever it was. My mother was very, was involved in lot of things. She was always on the PTA. We were all in 4H growing up and she was a 4H leader. She volunteered for children's hospital. She later on when us kids weren't at home or were, you know, didn't need as much attention all the time she was involved with Planned Parenthood, she was a huge Planned Parenthood supporter. She, I'm trying to think of the other, Neurosciences Institute. I think it was called G <unintelligible> I can't remember the name of it, but she was constantly involved with lots of different organizations, voices for children. She was very involved with San Diego State, which is where she went to school with the library at San Diego State. So I think that what I took away from that was that, it's important to give back and everybody can give back, but if you are somebody of, means and, are known within your community, it's even more important to, to give back that that's a commitment, an obligation really. And, I heard about it growing up and I saw it growing up. And so that's probably what I took from it more than, I mean, took from them more than anything was that they didn't just talk the talk, they walked the walk. Peirce: Yeah. I was about to, I was about to ask you about the, whether that was something that was, verbally taught to you. Like, if it was like, “Hey, this is what we do,” or you just kind of learn from example in regards to that, but you kind of, you kind of answered that. Ecke: Yeah. Peirce: Most of the press that I was able to read, mostly focuses on the men, in your family. Was that frustrating for, <unintelligible> you can go ahead and answer if you got something. Ecke: Well, I mean, I don't know that I think that it's, pretty standard for a, certainly for my grandparent’s generation and for my parent’s generation. That’s what you did, even if a, a wife or whatever was very involved in a business, you generally look to the husband for, you know, and they Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 2 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 were the person that got all the glory and that's just the way our society has been set up. In this generation my brother probably has had more publicity than I have just because he is the one that owned the Poinsettia Business. And so that naturally, I mean, he got a lot of press just from own owning the Poinsettia Business. He's also probably much more, comfortable in front of the camera because he's been doing it for so long. So, when we are both in a situation and somebody wants one of us to speak, I will defer to him.So, so that to some degree would be my fault, for not taking the spotlight when I could all the time. But yes, I mean, I think that just as a woman in society, it is sometimes frustrating, to have grown up and seen all the work that my grandmother and my mother did for the family business. And when you talk about the family business, you don't really hear much about them. I mean, some of that's getting righted a little bit, now, but it's certainly they didn't ever get any, any <unintelligible> whatever they, nobody called them out as doing great things when they were doing them. Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. Which is, which is a shame, honestly. <Unintelligible> I guess kind of where I want to go with that though, you brought up some of the functions that your grandmother and your mother and that you have supported. Right? How do you decide what to support? Is there any-- is it really up to you? What you support? Do you speak to people in the family just to make sure that the family name is doing kind of-- is there like any collaboration or is it, whatever you decide to kind of support at that time? Ecke: No, I think that, I mean, I, I haven't ever felt like if there was something that I wanted to support that anybody had any issue with it. I mean, maybe just being part of the family, there is a sense of, I suppose if I ever thought that there was something I wanted to get involved with that might create a problem, I would probably have a conversation. My brother and sister and I are pretty close and have good relationships. So, I wouldn't expect that any of us would get involved with something that we thought how had an edge to it without first, at least, telling others. But you know, what I've been involved with has changed over the years when my kids were school age, I was very involved with their schools. I have, you know, I'm involved with, YMCA a that's named after my grandmother. I was involved with it a number of years ago. And there, if you read anything about me, it's probably how I got myself kicked off of the board, but, <laugh> the man that was running the, San Diego, the corporate Y for San Diego, he, didn't renew his contract and now there's somebody new. So then, so now I'm back on the board. <laugh>, I'm all, I mean, I also am very supportive of Planned Parenthood, not to the degree my mother was, my mother was on the board. That might be something I'd be willing to do down the road. So I think that, that what I'm involved with evolves as whatever else is happening in my life or around me. Peirce: Absolutely. And then that makes sense, right? Like, you know, you're not, it's not like you give, give a dollar one day and then you're just, you're guaranteed to give it the rest of your time. Right. It really kind of focuses as your, as your life moves from place to place <affirmative> and from stage to stage, you know, as I, you know, I'm a new dad, I never would've thought about all the things I do with my kid and donating and doing stuff for that kind of stuff that prior to having him right. Every stage, it kind of takes you to a different… Ecke: Well, this isn't, it isn't in your field of vision. Peirce: Absolutely. And that's understandable. Right. We only can see here to here. Right. We can't see the full picture unless you're in it sometimes. Do you mind if I pivot to, to the Poinsettias? I just have a few questions on that. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 3 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Ecke: Absolutely. Peirce: I never grew up in a family that had like any sort of a business or anything like that. My parents were teachers. But were you interested in horticulture at all? Were you interested in flower, like any sort of growing flowers? Ecke: Well, yeah. I mean, the house that I grew up in it was right in the middle of the Poinsettia [fields]. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: So it was, you know, and I had done a lot of work for, I worked in the tissue culture lab at the ranch. I worked in the greenhouses many summers. I, we, all three of us grew up there was never a family vacation that we took that we didn't go visit greenhouse customers where ever it was in the world. And, when I had studied overseas in Mexico and in Germany, I've gone and visited flower customers on my own. So I was involved with it. But I also knew that wasn't gonna be the career I was going to choose. I mean, and not that anybody said I couldn't, but, you know, my grandfather's name was Paul Ecke Sr. My father was Paul Ecke Jr. and my brother's Pauly III and my name isn't Paul <laugh>. So, and that being said, my sister and I were had ownership interest in the ranch as much as my brother did, but we also made a determination, I don't know, 30 years ago or more that, the ranch really needs to have a singular head of it, it was not a businesses that was gonna get managed very well with a, you know, three people trying to do it. So we sold our interest to my brother and that made sense. I was on the board of directors for the ranch, so I was still involved. And my brother and I, I mean, any time my brother had big decisions to make, he would talk to me. So I may have not had my name on the company, but I did feel very involved with it. And you know there's a Los Angeles flower market where we would sell poinsettias every year. And I did that as did my brother and my sister and now I'm chairman of the board of that flower market. And so I had been involved in the flower business pretty much all my life, one way or another, I wasn't the face of the Poinsettia Ranch. Peirce: But you enjoyed working with the flowers you enjoyed working with your hands? Ecke: Oh yeah, no, absolutely. You know, and now we, as a family have the flower fields in Carlsbad. So I'm still, involved with, well, not growing the flowers, but involved with the floral culture business, and being on the board of the American Forest Exchange. I am attuned to what’s going on within that part of the sector of the world and I like it and I always have. Peirce: Awesome, awesome. I can’t even keep plants alive in my own house, so that just having an entire farm stresses me out just the thought of it. Ecke: <laugh> Oh, well, I've never run a farm. So that, that… Peirce: Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. <laugh> Ecke: I do, I did have a minor in horticulture in undergraduate school, but that was, as far as I went with that. Peirce: What was your major, if you don't mind me asking? Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 4 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Ecke: It was business. Peirce: Business. Ecke: And then I got an MBA in real estate and finance, so-Peirce: Absolutely. You've mentioned multiple arenas where you are on the board of directors or even the chairman of the board and stuff like that. Have you as a woman faced any pushback, any friction from people when you take these kind of leadership positions? Ecke: Well, most of the things that I've been on, I would say, well, no, I mean, when I was first, went on to the, American Forest Exchange Board, I was the first, I wasn't the very first woman that had ever been on the board, but I was the first woman to be on the board for quite some time. And I would, I will say that it was probably for the other men then that were on the board. My father had just recently passed away and he had been chairman of the board. And then I, took over, I took his seat on the board. So I think that, and I was much younger than the majority of the men on the board that isn't necessarily the case now, but it was then, which is almost 20 years ago now. I think that they initially had, they didn't have an issue with me being on the board, but I think that they were kind of surprised that I had an opinion or, that I took issue with some of the things that they, wanted to do. Or so I wouldn't see, say that I ever felt like they were trying to figure out a way to get me off the board, but I do think that there were some times when they were frustrated that I wasn't just playing along with whatever they wanted to do. Other boards that I'm on the YMCA board there's been women on that board long before I was ever on it. And, so I never felt anything there. We have a family foundation board, that my aunt has been on for as long as I can remember. And, and I've been on it for 40 years. So really no, I mean where I had a lot of pushback when I was first came back and worked for the family, I was doing a lot of leasing and tenant improvement work and construction management. And this was back in the eighties, late eighties. And there were a lot of construction guys that really were not very excited about taking orders from, you know, a short woman or probably a woman in general, but then this little, tiny person with a high squeaky voice, I can't <unintelligible> anybody absolutely wouldn't do what I asked them to do. It may have just taken me be more forceful than I needed to be. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: To do that. But you know, my father was to his credit. He really promoted, my sister and myself to do whatever we wanted to, to do. And, when I, I remember one time when I was probably 15 working up in Los Angeles at the flower market over Christmas, [be]cause that's the only time we would've been up there with the poinsettias. And my father put me a in charge of the phone orders. And so I remember, some big customer called and asked for my father and my father said, no, I don't have time, you just deal with them. And I went back and the conversation kind of went on. And then he finally said, I want to speak with a real Ecke. And so, I then went out, I mean, [be]cause again I'm 14 or 15 years old and I go back out and I said, dad, he says, he'll only place this order with a real Ecke. And my father said, you go back in there and said, tell him if he wants to buy poinsettias he is going to buy them from you. And he's gonna give the order to you. And you are just as real of an Ecke as anybody else. And so I went back in there and told the guy and he was none too happy, but he did give me the order. So my father did things like that really, he may not have believed that when he was 20 years old. But I think that my mother did a very good job of convincing him and teaching him that he should be paying attention to his Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 5 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 daughters as much as his son. And he did credit her with that. He would be the first one to say that he had a good relationship with his daughters because my mother taught him how to do that. Peirce: That's amazing. That's really awesome. Especially that, that kind of support, that young, how, how, early did you become, involved in the, in the family business? Like from as long as you can remember, or…? Ecke: Oh, I, well, I mean actually working, getting a paycheck was, you know, probably fifteen dollars. But even before that, when we were little again, our house was right there, the middle of the ranch and we'd go out and my father would put me to work, you know, folding, putting together pieces of different pieces of paper and stapling them and folding them to go in boxes of poinsettias that were being shipped out mostly as a way to keep me busy and out of other people's way. But I mean, I was probably doing that from the time I was seven or eight years old, or he would pay us, like a penny to pick up trash, to walk around the whole ranch and pick up trash and he would pay us, I dunno, 10 cents an hour or something ridiculous to do that. But, so always my parents were big believers in working and knowing the value of money. And my mother had grown up in a fairly poor family. Her family had moved out to California when she was 15 and lived in, government subsidized housing where UCSD [University of California San Diego] is now, they’d moved because my grandmother, I knew that she had, she knew, wanted her children to go to college and California back then had, still does have, a good college system, but it was virtually free. And, you know, my mother had two brothers and a sister and, you know, she went to San Diego State. She had one brother that became a doctor and another brother that became a veterinarian. And they all benefited from the school systems in, in San Diego, but that's why they moved. And my mother worked a lot from whenever. I mean, from the time she could remember, so she went, they lived through being homeless during the depression and other things. So my mother brought that to the table for us in the sense of understanding that you can't be wasteful, you need to think about, you know, how you spend your money. And my parents were on the same page with all of that you know, just because you have money doesn't mean that you need to flaunt it or that you have to spend it all just because you have it. And it, you know, there's other people that might need it more than you do, and it's your responsibility to help out with that. So I feel like I got, fairly grounded in the understanding of that. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. You, you've spoken a couple times about, growing up directly on, on the ranch <affirmative> and when you were a kid, I'm assuming that, Encinitas was a little bit more rural than it is now, not rural, but just less developed. Ecke: Yeah. Peirce: How has it been watching it grow over the years? Do you miss old Encinitas somewhat? Do you, you wish that things were a little bit different? Do you, do you just enjoy seeing time and things progress? Like what, what is your viewpoint on that? Ecke: Well, yeah, I mean, if, if Encinitas could be the Encinitas that I grew up in, I thought that that was fabulous. If I was really living in that would, I think is, is as fabulous, you know, you get nostalgic about things. But I could, when I was growing up and I had my horse, I could ride my horse down Encinitas Blvd. all the way to the beach and ride my horse on the beach with my other friends who had horses. And, it was you… <unintelligible> So, I mean, there's things like that, that I'm nostalgic for. But places change. I mean, you can't expect things to not change. And, for the most part, I think that the way Encinitas has changed is pretty good given, you know, the options. I mean, there wasn't, there isn't a Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 6 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 way that Encinitas was gonna stay the way that it was, but it was a lovely place to grow up. I mean, I, again, I knew there was like two elementary schools and, you know, one high school. And when I went, graduated from high school, there was only one high school from Del Mar to through Encinitas. So we, all went to San Dieguito together. My high school graduating class in 1975 was the last year that we were together, [be]cause then Torrey Pines was built and they opened up Torrey Pines [High School]. So, I mean it was, it was a very close-knit community. And it was, you know, nice to know you go into a grocery store, the drug store and you know, it's, somebody's father that's there or, you know, <affirmative> and that, that was a nice thing. And I, and I do miss that, but I suppose if that was super important to me, I could go find some other very small community that I could have that. Peirce: No, absolutely. I, I mean, I grew up in, I grew up in Riverside and in the, the eighties and nineties and I still remember driving to, to school and, running into, into, shepherds herding sheep across the road. And now every single part of that is, is track housing that they built that are, you know, the cookie cutter houses and, you know, you can get nostalgic for it, but I, I can completely understand like you, you do what you do, what, what you can with what it is. People need to live. People need houses and people need to, things grow and things change, but it was just interesting to, you know, you you've been living in that, you lived in that same house as your, as your, as your father and everything. And it's just like, you know, having it grow around that is, is a interesting perspective for sure. Ecke: Definitely, it definitely is. I mean, it's, it's weird because now I live in that, well, we've redone the house, but I live in what was my grandparents’ house that my grandparents built when my parents got married, they built a house and moved into the house. And then my parents moved into the house that my father grew up in. So I now live in the location, not the house anymore because we did rebuild it about 15 years ago, but to where my grandparents lived and, and it was a very different place then, because when I was growing up from my grandparents’ house, they were half a mile off of any public road in fact when I moved into this house 30 years ago, we were still Leucadia Boulevard, didn't go through. And so I was a half a mile off of any paved road. And, there the view, they had a view to the west, which we still have and a view to the east and there was nothing to the east, nothing at all. I mean, there was one light that you could see out there. And I remember that when I was a kid and now that's all houses. And just, you know, my father, this is totally a, a side note, but my father was also very involved with Cal[ifornia] State [University] San Marcos and getting it started and was very enthusiastic about it, which is, part of the reason that, my brother and I decided that that's what the family papers should, should go. It was, it kind of made sense because we had that connection. Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. We, we appreciate it. Not that I'm, I have a particular hand in it, but at the same time I, you know, as a, as a budding historian, I do appreciate <affirmative> people putting their things in the, in archives. Is it, I'm trying to figure out how I can word this… right. When you, when you've spoken about like how your grandfather advocated for the, the, the I-5 going where it, it goes and, and your father was, was, a, a large part of, of the, the beginnings of Cal State San Marcos, right? Is it, do you ever sit and think like, oh wow. Like my family has really impacted this, this area in, in many ways, like, you'd sit, be like, wow, like this is here in part because of the way that my family has kind of shaped the area. Do you ever think about that and how it like, is that an interesting thought to you or is that never occurred? Ecke: Yeah, it, no, it is. And I mean, it's something generally. I mean, I would say it's a sense of pride to know that, that the, our, we didn't, we as a family, didn't just come here and do what we did without Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 7 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 wanting to better our community and be involved in our community. I mean, I know that my parents and grandparents, when Encinitas was super tiny when they were here, they, there wasn't anything for anybody to do after work. I mean, there just wasn't anything here. So they figure out how to build a bowling alley in, in Downtown Encinitas. So people had a place to go versus I guess, just going to a bar or something. I mean that there was someplace something else to do. And, those kinds of things, I mean, there's nothing that there's no rules or laws or anything that says that you have to do that, but if you're gonna be part of a community, it's nice to know that your family helped build that community. So it, yeah, it is something that I think about, at times when, you know, there's, and there's enough things named after our family, there's a park in Encinitas. And then there's the YMCA and there's various other things that, remind me and maybe the community of what we've done. I would say that it is very different now than it was even 20 years ago. I mean, 20 years ago, I could, if I said my name was Ecke, pretty much anybody in Encinitas would've heard the name, they would, I mean, they might not know anything, but they would've heard the name. And, that isn't necessarily the case now, and that's not a bad thing, but it is, we are a much, larger and diverse community now. So, our family doesn't play the same kind of role as it used to. I mean, we still are very supportive of the community and we have a family foundation and most of the money, it's not a huge found[ation], but most of the money that comes out of that does get invested in, local charities, things like the YMCA or the community resource center or things like that. So we still are very involved, but again, because the community has grown so much, we're just not as big a, a part of it, which that's a good thing, [be]cause there's a lot more people out there that are also being supportive of things that need to be supported. Peirce: Absolutely. Given, your longstanding, presence in the community, as people have come in, have you. worked with other people who have tried to make a difference in the community? Have you tried to foster those kinds of, any sort of other, like, charitable services or anything like that? Has anyone come to you and been like, how do I start this? How do I do this and kinda look to you and have, have you mentored anyone in that regard? Ecke: No, I don't think that I could say that I've done that. And I don't think that I would certainly know how to tell anybody to start something. I mean, I've been involved with any number of things, like the Community Resource Center and the YMCA and grower school and any number of things. And so I've met a lot of other people within the community and I mean, the people that tend to volunteer and give money is just like almost anything in life. You've got, you know, 20% of the people doing 80% of the work or giving or whatever. I mean, it is, you see the same people over and over again. Peirce: Absolutely. What else do you, where do you see your role in the family moving forward? Where do you see your family moving forward in the community, given that you've said that it, as the community has grown, you've kind of, do you still see your family as a vital part of the community you have going forward? Ecke: No, definitely. My brother lives in Encinitas. I live in Encinitas, you know, we both raised our families in Encinitas. My sister lives in North Carolina, and we both still work in the family business. And I don't see that really changing at some point in the future. Some of the kids, my kids, my brother’s kids, my sister’s kids may wanna come back and be part of the family business. At some points somebody's gonna have to take over things from our, my generation of, people, but pretty much all of those in their twenties. So they're still figuring out what to do with their lives. But, I mean, my father was involved with in the community and pretty much until the day he died and my mother until her Alzheimer's got too bad, was involved with the community. So I never saw my parents just say, okay, I'm done now. And I'm gonna, you know, go just have fun all day every day and not be involved with my community. So, and Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 8 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 my husband grew up in a similar type of in environment. So I don't see us just, you know, retiring and doing, not being involved. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say has been, your proudest accomplishment? Whether it's in North County or just in general, what, what are you most proud of and in your career, in your life in general? Ecke: Well, I mean the most obvious answer would be my children. I mean, I've raised two children that are self-sufficient and, you know, both graduated from college. My son's getting his PhD now and, you know, they're supporting themselves and that in of itself is an accomplishment as a parent. I don't, I don't know that… There is a given thing that I could say that I would point to. I know I'm happy that I have been able to be part of the family business in a relevant way. It was something that was very important to my mother because she didn't always feel seen. And so she fought very hard for my sister and myself to be seen and to be heard. And I think it was, something that she was very proud of when, she had daughters that were involved and had a say in what was happening. And so I feel accomplished that I fulfilled something that was important to my mother. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: But I don't know that there's a specific, or that I can think of a specific thing that I've fought for and won on or something. Peirce: I mean it is a difficult question unless you clambered up Everest or something, it's like, well, you know, like I was just curious if there was anything specifically, you're like, oh yeah. You know, like, I won the World Cup or something, but you know what I mean? Ecke: No, none of those things. Peirce: Same here, so it's, yeah. I had one question I did have about the papers that you donated. Was it important for you and your family to have someplace, public for repository of that nature? Or what was, what was the reasoning behind that and why was that important to you guys? Ecke: Well, my mother was a big history buff. That probably was part of it, but-- It just, there was a hundred years of history of our family. Because you know, my grandfather, my grandparents first came down here in the early 1920s, and bought land. And Encinitas was basically a railroad station at that time. And was really one of the founding families. And there was, lots of records because we lived on the ranch, and we had all these various barns and buildings. I don't think much of anything ever got thrown away because you didn't have to throw it away. So there are, you know, receipt books and things from back in 1926, you know, and, I will say that my brother did a yeoman's job when, after he had sold the ranch property and sold the business, he spent a year going through all of those records and consolidating and organizing, a hundred year’s worth of stuff. And that was a huge job. And during that time we talked about, well, okay. I mean, it didn't seem right to just throw it away. I mean, but what do you do with it? I mean, that is really the question of what are the choices. So, we talked to various people there and I should remember his name, somebody who is a history professor there at Cal State San Marcos that was also on the board of the, historical society here in Encinitas. And we met with him, and I think it may have been his suggestion that we go and talk to the librarian out there. The other thing that we thought about was, San Diego State, because we had a connection there with my mother, Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 9 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 my father went to Ohio state, so that wasn't gonna make sense. I mean, but, you know, Cal State San Marco was here and in North County and we had a connection with it. And so that seemed to make the most sense because it just didn't feel right to just go rent a warehouse and put it in there who was ever gonna do anything with it. And, you know, I think that there is a wealth of knowledge in history, even if it's just mundane things that, you know, receipt books from back in 1926, and you can see what a bag of flower cost or whatever. I mean, you're a historian. And then those are the kinds of things that people can look back on and get real information about what life was like. And you know Cal State San Marcos was the one that was really venturing into new territory because they didn't have any, we were kind of the first one. We were all kinda learning together as to what this meant. I mean, we didn't, I mean, we knew that families gave papers to various learning institutions. I didn't ever know anybody personally who had, or, you know, what, like that really meant. So it's been a cool learning experience. Peirce: Oh, absolutely. As, like the idea of you were saying, like, we didn't know what to do with it. I was just like, in my head, I'm like, please don't throw it away, even though I know you didn't, like, I was just like, don't do it. <laugh> Well, as we wrap up here, is there anything about you, your life, your family, that you feel like I, we haven't touched on that you kind of wanna talk about today? Ecke: I don't know. There probably is, but nothing that is, jumping, to mind right now. Yeah, I mean, it’s been a fun ride. I don't think it's over. I feel very privileged to have been part of, or to be part of this family. it's nice to have history and grounding within a community. Again, my husband's family’s from New Orleans and he's like third generation on one side and five generations on the other side. So, he has a similar feeling and it's, there is something very grounding about being a part of someplace. And I feel very privileged to be part of Encinitas, [be]cause I do feel like I have a lot of invested in it and I guess has a lot invested in me and that's, that's been nice. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't, I don't think we could end know a better note than that. Lizbeth Ecke, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for giving us your perspective about your family and giving it to this project. My name is Jake Peirce and we are signing off now. Ecke: Great. Thank you. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 10 2022-09-27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ecke, Lizbeth. Interview transcript. April 13, 2022. Description An account of the resource Narrator Lizbeth Ecke is the daughter of San Diego horticulturist Paul Ecke Jr., who contributed to the popularity of the poinsettia plant. Lizbeth Ecke also is on the board for the YMCA and the American Forest Exchange. In this interview, Lizbeth discusses her childhood growing up in Encinitas, CA and working alongside her father in the flower business, and her experience as a women working in a male dominated industry in comparison to her father and brother. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lizbeth Ecke Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacob Peirce Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-13 Subject The topic of the resource Businesswomen Floriculture Interstate 5 -- California Poinsettias Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-12 Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2caac1a8cfc3ca29c2de994f0935e8bb.pdf 86bdb8529b42a059d7ccb366fdf0c96c PDF Text Text April 26, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good morning. My name is Suzy Karasik. Today is November 4th and I am interviewing Carol Graham, Master Gardener, native Californian, and so much that we will learn here in part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Carol, thank you for joining me today. (coughs) Carol Graham: (nods) My pleasure. Karasik: And, um, I wanted to just say briefly how I met Carol. I’m part of the EcoFest that we had here in Encinitas a couple of weeks ago. It’s an annual event that we do to educate people to everything involved with the ecology and the environment here in the county. And Carol had an incredible display (Carol gestures with her arms to display the posterboards on a table behind her) with the Master Gardeners, which we’ve been able to set up here and hopefully make it a little bit more readable. (Carol holds up a model of a fly, with a paper flyer attached and hanging below it) And Carol, let’s just start here. As we had discussed, let’s talk a little bit about where you born and your childhood and if any of that happened to prepare you for what was to come in your most interesting life and, um, how you’ve identified yourself over the years and your relationship with the county. So, you can start there. Graham: Well, I was born in North Claremont, the city of San Diego. And my mother was a very avid fruit tree gardener. And I really benefited because when my husband and I moved up here to Encinitas over forty years ago, it’s a similar microclimate to the one I grew up in, which means the fruit trees that I enjoyed—gardening at my mother’s knees, and fell in love with certain varieties of nectarines and other delicious fruits, loquats—I could grow those same varieties here which was nice. Karasik: Yes. Graham: And it was a very pleasant community to grow up in. Karasik: If I may ask, if you don’t mind, what year were you born, or— Graham: Oh. (chuckles) 1952. Karasik: Okay. Graham: Yes. So, I just recently celebrated—not that many months ago—my 70th birthday. Karasik: Yes! So, tell us a little bit about your school and what it was like here in the North County—well, you were actually down in San Diego— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —as you were growing up. Graham: I went to elementary school and junior high in the city of San Diego. 1 �Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, my father was a career Marine. So, we had three years in Virginia, and I graduated from high school in Virginia. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And then we came back to San Diego because the house had been rented—not sold. So, we were able to come back to the same garden, the same microclimate, which was great for the garden— Karasik: Yes. Graham: —the same fruit trees waiting for us— Karasik: Yes. Graham: —the ones that we had planted earlier. So, it was a very pleasant experience, very supportive of the interests that I continue to enjoy today. Karasik: So–so you graduated from high school in–in–out east, and— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —then you came back out here. What were your–What was your initial work, and— Graham: Well, I went to S.D.S.U. and earned a bachelor’s degree in Zoology— Karasik: Mmm. Graham: —because animals have always fascinated me, and that’s not just the animals many people first think of are the gigantic giraffe and interesting hippopotamus, and rhinoceros. But I’m also fascinated by what some people will refer to as the–the bugs (holds up a stuffed toy puppet ladybug, and chuckles). So, um— Karasik: Let’s talk about the bugs a little bit. Graham: Yeah. Well, I am very pleased to educate people on—well, most people recognize this as one of their favorite bugs in the whole garden, the lady beetle. (has now put on the puppet on her right hand and is holding it up in front of her) People call it the ladybug, but it’s more scientific to call it the lady beetle. Because actually the word “bug” has a derogatory reference. It comes from old English, meaning something unpleasant (makes a face, and gestures with her left hand to indicate something scattering away). So, lady beetle is the more appropriate, better name. And it’s interesting in that its larval stage looks creepy! (holds up another stuffed animal, which appears to be a larval stage representation of the lady beetle). So— Karasik: I did not know that! Graham: —the larval stage, as I tell people, “Yes, it looks like a creepy, six-legged, micro alligator.” So, it’s very important that we reach out to the public, as Master Gardeners, and inform people “when you see this in the garden, don’t assume it’s something bad.” (she shakes 2 �the larval-stage, stuffed animal) For instance, (turns to her right and looks at the posterboard behind her, first to one with the header “IPM” then points to the board with the header “Identify”) one of the first steps of Integrated Pest Manager—which is what I.P.M. stands for— is identify friend or foe. Because if you assume this is bad (holds up the larval stage stuffed toy) and as many people have told me as they come by our Master Gardener exhibit, they had no idea it was a lady beetle larva. They thought it was something bad ‘cuz it looks creepy! You know what they had told me they had done? They sprayed it with pesticide, or they squished it, or they taught their kids to be afraid of it, which was so sad. Especially since this (shakes the larval stage toy) can not do any good if you squish it! (laughs) Um, but I admit, yes, it looks creepy. And we also educate people that not all lady beetles look like this. (Shakes her right hand which has the mature lady beetle puppet on it) Not all of them are red. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: So, we have an assortment of photos that show different colors for the different species ‘cuz it–it’s great to benefit not from just one species of lady beetle (again shakes her puppeted right hand) but several. (Turns to put both of those stuffed toys down on the bench next to her, then holds up a stuffed toy that looks like a mosquito, which has a paper flyer hanging off of it.). And on the dark side, we also need to educate people about this character. Karasik: Ugh. Graham: Now, a Master Gardener friend of mine made both this educational model (again holds up the larval stage toy) and this (holds up mosquito toy). And she made them too pretty, in a way, because this looks, actually, quite attractive. And it is the creepy mosquito! And I think we’ve all been bitten by mosquitoes. And some people don’t realize but the mosquito actually has been given the horrific title of the most deadly animal we share the planet with, because the part it plays vectoring malaria, dengue, yellow fever. Even West Nile virus killed some of our residents here in San Diego County. It was about fifteen, seventeen years ago. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, it’s true that apparently everyone who died of West Nile virus in our county had pre-existing medical conditions or they would have survived. But it’s also true some of those people could be alive today if they hadn’t been bitten by infected mosquitoes. But unfortunately, 3the mosquito larvae are not easily identifiable for people who haven’t been introduced to them. And many of our neighbors are growing mosquito larvae in their bird baths and other watercontaining items, children’s toys, and buckets in the garden. Stagnant water is where the mother mosquito likes to lay her eggs. In a few days, those eggs hatch out to larvae. And when I have displayed larvae—‘cuz sometimes I’ll deliberately grow them to have them on exhibit, and I take the lid off the jar only after I make sure they’re just in the larval stage. No adults to fly out and bite people. And I will ask people as they come to the exhibit, “Do you know what this is?” and over half the adults have no idea it’s mosquito larvae, which is very disturbing, because they’re growing them possibly in their gardens. And when they see them, they’re not motivated to dump it out, ‘cuz they don’t know what it is. 3 �Karasik: This is so important, and so, uh, (Graham puts down the mosquito toy) so–so much of it is actually unknown to the public. I’m curious, if you wanted to just kind of go through these four stages, if you will. (Carol stands up and turns toward posterboards) And then we’ll talk more about how you even became to be a Master Gardener. But I don’t want to— Graham: Okay. Karasik: —uh, (Carol sits back down again) forget to look at a little bit more of your early days— Granham: Okay. Karasik: —so we’ll come back. Graham: (she turns toward the board that reads “IPM.”) Well, the first stage in Integrated Pest Management, as I said, is Identify—(points to the posterboard reading “Identify”) friends, and admittedly some of these friends do look creepy—(points to photographs under the subheading “Friends” on that posterboard) Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —and foes. (points to, and circles with her right-hand finger, various photographs under the subheading “Foes”). And here, kind of the star of the show, (circles the middle of the board, which has a collage of photos) indeed, we recognize the adult lady beetle (points to the photo of the lady beetle). I hardly ever see the eggs (points to a photo of lady beetle eggs) and I have my head in the garden a lot, so I’m surprised I don’t see them more often. But, at certain times of the year, I’ll see the larval stage, (points to a photo of a larval lady beetle) and as I said, I’ll admit it looks creepy like a six-legged micro alligator. And the pupal stage (points to a photo of a pupa of a lady beetle). And if, ideally, people would get this in high school or junior high school biology, it would be so helpful for the public health of our communities. And then of course you move on (stands up and points to the posterboard with the subheading “Understand”) to understand relationships, like the sooty mold, which is this black powdery (points to a photo of leaves with black mold on it) material you frequently find on some infected leaves (reads the text above the photos, indicating it with her left hand)—“grows on the honeydew, produced by sucking insects.” So, unfortunately, it’s not uncommon to have aphids or mealybugs or whiteflies or scale. And what goes in one end to their body as food—‘cuz they puncture the tender leaves and they’re sucking the sap—comes out the other end of their body, and instead of calling it like “aphid poop” it's called “honeydew.” Karasik: (chuckles) Graham: And this honeydew is a rich source of food for the growth, unfortunately, of ants which will protect these bad guys and sooty mold to grow. And here (points to a photo of ants) we see the ants will actually chase away the good guys who would eat some of these bad guys. But the ants are kind of protecting the bad guys because they’re eating— Karasik: That’s their sustenance. 4 �Graham: —the honeydew. Yeah. It’s kind of like we— Karasik: Yeah. Graham: —protect our dairy cattle from predators who might eat them, because we want to milk them and benefit from them. Karasik: Right, right. Graham: (then points to the text toward the bottom with her left hand) And understanding leads to multiple control approaches—biological, cultural, chemical, physical. There’s quite a diversity there. (She then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Assess,” points to the text with her left hand, and reads) And assess. Butterflies and moths are pollinators. Butterfly and moth larvae are consumers. Well, some bugs, I say they’re like children. They don’t always behave. They do some good and some bad (chuckles). And you have to kind of evaluate how it interacts in your garden. (points directly to the camera and whispers “The screen went dark. Is that a problem? Appears to wait for answer, and then says “okay,” and continues) You have to assess how they interact (using her left hand, she circles above a diagram showing the cycle of interaction of insects) in your garden, whether the bit of bad they do is less than the good they do. So, you can label them a good or a bad. Um, and of course, the green fruit beetle (points to the bottom of the board, to a photo of a beetle). Well, some people label it a pest, because it will attack, damage overripe soft fruits—peach, nectarines, plums, apricot—‘cuz it’s drawn to the fragrance. But, the grub, which admittedly looks creepy, is a fantastic decomposer. And it’s in all our compost piles, helping break things down. And it has a strict diet of eating rotting organic matter only. Although, it does look similar to the June Beetle grubs which eat live plant roots and tubers and corms. So, I try and teach people how to tell the difference— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: (then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Control” and points to a pyramid illustration) —and then the control aspects, from cultural which is considered benign approach; mechanical and physical—I mean, just physically pulling (with her left hand, mimics pulling off the insects from the photos on the “Assess” posterboard) the snails off your plants; biological—reloos–reducing–releasing—excuse me—lady beetles, or recognizing the lady beetle larvae that you do have so you don’t accidentally spray it with pesticide; to chemical (points to the top of the pyramid on “Control” posterboard). And all these different approaches are out there (waves her left hand above the pyramid) and they should be assessed and see how they fit into your garden. So, I think that (waves her left hand in front of all four posterboards, indicating totality) kind of reviews them all. Karasik: Pretty much covers that. Before we go back to your childhood, I’m going to pause here just for a minute (Graham sits back down and nods) Karasik: Okay, Carol. I think probably one of the most important aspects of this beautiful background that you chose to bring is the chemical aspect of the pest management. (Carol points to the pyramid on the “Control” posterboard) So, let’s talk a little bit about that and the toxicity because I’m thinking that our descendants that may be watching this oral history in the years to 5 �come will know a whole lot–a lot more about what would have been a more wise pest management than we do now. Graham: (again pointing at the posterboard) Well, the chemical aspect is considered the most toxic, and we want you to try the cultural, physical, and biological approaches first. And under the chemical (reads the text on the posterboard, which I’ve designated in quotations) “Use only in combination with the other controls.” It’s not like you have to use only these or only the chemical. You can use them together. And hopefully you won’t even have to go to the chemicals. Hopefully, you can control it by the other approaches. “Use a pest–pest specific non-broad-spectrum pesticide.” In other words, if you do feel you have to use a chemical pesticide, don’t spray the whole garden, and make sure that before you buy any pesticide you carefully read the container and that it mentions the specific pest you’re trying to address, ‘cuz there are pesticides out there that would be totally wasted if you bought this pesticide and it didn’t apply to this pest that you were trying to control. Karasik: Right. Graham: And yet you introduce something toxic into the environment unnecessarily—very undesirable, of course. “Select the least toxic pesticide to reduce potential risks. Always read and follow directions on the pesticide label. It’s the law.” And as I tell people, well, the first thing you read before you buy any pesticide is will it address your target, you also want to make sure is it okay to put on the plant you want to put it on, ‘cuz many of us are growing edibles, and some of the pesticides like insecticidal soap are okay to put on edibles—fruits and vegetables—and will mention that on the paper. Whereas there are other pesticides that you definitely wouldn’t want to put on your edibles, ‘cuz they can get soaked into the plant, and you wouldn’t want to be eating them when you’re eating the produce from that plant. Karasik: Right. I–I was curious if you feel that very many people are actually aware, for example, of the dangers of glyphosate and how that has pretty much penetrated the entire planet. And I’m wondering in the future, um, you know, what will–what will become of that. Do you try to educate specifically on that or does that bother you that it’s still sold and advertised and is just so deadly? Graham: Well, mostly, we’re not targeting any one pesticide. We want people to open their minds to p–basically trying chemical, physical, and biological approaches before they’d even consider the pesticide. So, we spend most of our time—if we can teach them about biological control, physical control, or cultural control, hopefully they’ll never even have to get to the point where they’re considering a chemical pesticide. Karasik: Right. Right. And when you–you go into schools and tell me a little bit about who–who all is your audience. Obviously, festivals like we had— Graham: Oh, the Encinitas EcoFest was very nice— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —attended. And, of course, we do have many Master Gardeners helping in school gardens. And of course, when you’re talking to the students and their supervisors—the teachers, 6 �the staff, chaperones, and parents—about how to properly grow this product that they’re going to pick from the garden and eat, you definitely want to mention that “okay, we’re not going to put this pesticide on here because we don’t have any pests on this. Isn’t it great?” That kind of thing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Or “oh, we do have pests. We have snails, sliming up the trunk of our citrus tree.” But instead of using a pesticide, we can teach them, of course, much simpler approach, just pick it off. Karasik: How–huh–who knew! Graham: Or we can use a copper band, because snails don’t actually like to slime over copper. It tastes bad for them. So, if we teach them that, we are hopefully enlightening them so when they actually grow to adulthood and have their own yards and their own gardens, they will not first grab the chemical control approach. Karasik: Oh, uh, that’s really great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about, I think maybe, how your life tha–developed, how you met your husband. Graham: Okay. Karasik: And, um, let’s–let’s hear about that. Graham: Well, I was attending San Diego State University, working on my Bachelor of Science in Zoology degree, and my husband, actually, had graduated from there and he was the teaching aide for the lab class in one of the biology classes. So, that’s how I met him, which is interesting. He was in marine biology which was kind of far away from my backyard biology, but still a biologist. And within a year of completing my degree, we were both working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One, in that the Nuclear Generating Station would shut down, I believe it was like every eight weeks, and they would heat-treat and chemical-treat the water intake system, because they had a large pipe—I think it was, like, twelve-foot diameter or something—and it was sucking in ocean water which was cooling some of the rest of the system at the nuclear power plant. But you’re sucking in water from the ocean, so you’re sucking in barnacles and polychaetas and other biophaline. They settle on the pipe and they grow. And this of course not only reduces the diameter of the water intake flow, but also when you’re treating, you might end up with some of these clogs of biophaline getting sucked in and causing problems. So, every, I think it was eight weeks, but don’t quote me on that, I think they were shutting the plant down to chemically treat and heat treat to kill the biophaline so it didn’t keep growing. Unfortunately, every time they shut the plant down, I believe I was told it was $10,000 more an hour for the energy company to buy energy to supply us than it was making the energy at San Onofre. And people really didn’t relate to this because they’d flip the lights on and the switch would come on because the power company was being responsible and making sure the power was there, even though it was costing more. But people were, of course, ending up having to pay a bit more, because it was more expensive when it was shut down. Now, as a biologist, it seemed pretty obvious that in the cold of the winter, the biophaline wasn’t growing as fast. And why were we shutting down the power plant every eight weeks, year-round, regardless of the time of the year. So, on site, I like to joke, I was basically locked into this research trailer, and I was measuring 7 �the biophaline on these research plates, so identifying which quadrat on which plate, and what was the diameter of that barnacle, and this polychaete, and that barnacle. And we measured them, for a year, and we were able to show people the hard scientific evidence that things were growing slower in the cold winter waters. And they didn’t have to shut the plant down as often. So, in the end, after we generated–processed all the data, etc., indeed they considered this quite a successful study. So, they weren’t shutting the plant down every week–eight weeks in the winter, because they realized things weren’t growing as fast, as far as the biophaline. So, everybody in the long run saved money, even the cost of the research, which seemed quite expensive at the time although now that the quanti–the money for that research project doesn’t seem quite as expensive as it was decades ago. But they more than saved, because of the change they could do in running the plant. Karasik: I’m curious, too, because you didn’t have computers back then. Or did you have s— Graham: It was much slower. Karasik: Yeah. You did have some large, like, big equipment that did do some processing. Graham: I’ve talked about after the year of being locked into the research trailer on site of San Onofre, I was locked for a year (chuckles) into the office to transfer the data. Whereas, if we’d had more sophisticated computers back then, it would have been much faster. Karasik: Right. Now, where was your husband working at the–at San Onofre. Graham: Well, he was the lead investigator, so we were locked into the same trailer. Karasik: Oh, that was nice! (chuckles) Graham: Yes. Karasik: I’m curi— Graham: There were three of us in the trailer. Karasik: Right. I’m curious, too, because I think it’s important from a–a women’s perspective. Did you feel any sense of a gender discrimination, or were women respected? Graham: No. I was given full respect. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, because it didn’t matter what my gender was. I was still going to be locked into that research trailer. ‘Cuz it’s–it was San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. So, basically, you went to the main entrance. You were evaluated, basically. They also threw the dice and every three or four or six people would be body-searched, (chuckles) physically patted down— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —going in. And this was before we really thought of terrorist activities much. And then we had to walk directly to the research trailer. And even at lunch we didn’t leave the research 8 �trailer. We would bring our lunches in and stay in that trailer until the end of the day, research day. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And we walked right out. But I never felt— Karasik: And was your pay equal? Graham: Yes. Mm-hmm. Karasik: Oh, that’s—I’m really happy to hear that. Graham: I mean, not necessarily equal to my husband, because he was the lead investigator. Karasik: Correct. Graham: But equal to the other party, who happened to be a guy, in the research trailer doing the same work I was doing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Well, I’m glad to hear that. And it must have also really been nice to work with your husband and be able to share your knowledge and excitement about the job. That must have been–been really great. Graham: Well, he was a marine biologist, so he was quite into it. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, I wasn’t as into the organisms, because I was more terrestrial biologist, of course. Karasik: Right. Graham: Backyard gardening, etc. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: But I did appreciate the fact that this was a–basically a clean form of energy, compared to burning coal. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And, um— Karasik: And how do you feel about that now? Not that we have to go into a huge nuclear discussion. Graham: Well, now it’s shut down. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And of course, the–the complication is dealing with the remnants, the radioactive remnants. Karasik: Yes. 9 �Graham: And I’d like to see the country go more and more into clean energy—but nuclear was considered clean— Karasik: Right. Graham: —and weed ourself away from the energy sources that are not considered good for the environment. Karasik: You know, that reminds me. At the EcoFest, there was another booth that passed out quite a bit of information about the San Onofre situation and what we need to know as far as how close some of those storage tanks are to water sources and other things like that. Do you—is that a concern for you at all? Or do you think the public is aware of that? Graham: I think they’re doing a good job dealing with that. I would eventually like to see that material moved. For decades now, they’ve talked about moving it to a—I’ve forgotten the exact location. Karasik: There’s a place in Nevada, I know. Graham: Yeah. I don’t know exactly where in Nevada, but— Karasik: And then, of course, there’s the NIMBY—Not In My Backyard. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then the people in Nevada were like “Well, you know, we don’t want it here.” So, I think this is an interesting discussion that in decades to come when people come back and look at this and will see what–what’s been done that’s much more safe, and–and won’t that–won’t that be great, hopefully. Graham: But, I’m sure glad we weren’t burning more— Karasik: Yes. Graham: —coal at the time to generate that energy— Karasik: Exactly. Graham: —when we were using. Karasik: And that–and that’s still an issue. So, then, tell me a little bit about either how San Onofre ended. You had a–a–I know you have one son that you had mentioned to me. So, tell me a little bit about your family and tell me about your–your parents and your husband’s parents, and where they came from and, you know, how your lives developed here in North County. Graham: Oh. Well, my husband and I moved to Encinitas over forty years ago. And, because it was relatively close to where the Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility was, where I was staying in the office for a year and processing the data from San Onofre. And my parents still lived in San Diego and my in-laws also lived in San Diego. So, it was smart to live on the Encinitas, south of where we went to work, because that was closer to go and visit them, which 10 �we frequently did. And my son—the family joke is “What does the only child of two biologists go into study-wise and stay in science, but get as far away philosophically and geographically from any of the biological studies as possible?” Astrophysics! (chuckles) So he got his–actually, his PhD finally. He started with his bachelor’s at Berkeley, and then wan–went to on get his Ph.D. at a–a—what is that, in Maryland, the institution?— Karasik: In Annapolis, or?— Graham: People think first of the medical aspect. Karasik: Right. Mm, we’ll come back to that. Graham: He’s going to criticize me for not remembering where he got his PhD. Karasik: Mmm. Graham: Anyway. And he had some research in astrophysics. Karasik: Not John Hopkins? [sic] Graham: John Hopkins, [sic] yes. I’m sorry. Karasik: Johns Hopkins. Okay, great. Graham: I’m going to have to apologize for a minute, not remembering, John Hopkins. [sic] Karasik: That’s alright. Yeah. Graham: He got his PhD at John Hopkins. [sic] Yes. Karasik: Yes. Prestigious. Yes. Graham: Yes. Karasik: So, you had just the one son? Graham: Just the one son. Karasik: Okay. So, tell me a little bit about where your parents came from, um, you know, what generation you are. Did they come directly to California? Do you know? ‘Cuz a lot of us don’t really know where our ancestors came from, other than immediate. How much do you know about both yours and your husband’s? Graham: Okay, my mother was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. My father was born in Ohio. Now, I believe, possibly, the previous generation had come from Ireland and England and Germany. My in-laws, my mother-in-law was born in, I think, Kansas City, Missouri, which is, you know, Kansas City but it’s in Missouri, but I guess it’s a city that’s— Karasik: They’re sister cities on the border. Graham: Yes. Right across the river from each other. Karasik: Mm-hmm. 11 �Graham: And my father-in-law was born in Kirkcaldy, Scotland. Karasik: Mmm! So he immigrated here and— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —with his wife? Do you know? Graham: No. Karasik: Or did he meet her here? Graham: He married her here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then I guess they all decided to come out to California? Do you know anything about that journey? Graham: Um, my father-in-law was working, I believe, in the aircraft industry, which was quite active at one time in San Diego. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Manufacturing. And my father was a career Marine, and was stationed out here at Camp Pendleton and— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —some other facilities in southern California. Karasik: There’s a lot of history from Camp Pendleton that will be in our Oral History. Graham: Oh! Good. Karasik: Yeah. So, I guess probably, let’s switch then a little bit. When we look at your life’s work, uh, did–did you want to say more about after you didn’t work for San Onofre anymore, did you get more involved tha—How did you get involved with the Master Gardeners? Let’s go there. Graham: Oh, well, um, we had my son. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And my neighbors warned me that, “If you’re looking for infant childcare, you can’t depend on the local teenagers, if you want to do a routine.” And I wanted to apply to Master Gardeners, which was going to be, I think, seventeen consecutive Tuesdays, and you were expected to attend every one, ideally. And I was wondering, “Okay.” So I asked my mother, “I would like to go through this Master Gardener program which is put on through the University of California Cooperative Extension and become a Master Gardener volunteer, which is dedicated 12 �to disseminating information for a successful and environmentally responsible home gardening. But your infant grandson would need care every Tuesday for like seventeen consecutive Tuesdays.” And she said yes. So, I’m very beholden to my mother because— Karasik: Thank you, mother! Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Because otherwise I’m not sure where I could have dropped him off for just— Karasik: Right. And what year would that have been? Graham: He was born in 1982. Karasik: Mmm, so you had— Graham: Then it was in 1983 that I started the Master Gardener program. Karasik: Oh. Wonderful. Graham: He was just a year old. Karasik: Okay. So, how would you say that work has changed over the years for you, and just tell me more about—I–I–I think, in these interviews we want genera–future generations that come back and watch this and want to learn about the community and how the peoples lives were affected (Carol points to something off camera), what you’d—(Carol looks again off camera and starts to chuckle) what you would want them to know. Graham: Well, Encinitas is a great community to live in. The microclimate is fantastic for people who like to grow a diversity of fruit. Although before you grow any fruit trees, no matter where you’re living, always check that the microclimate is adapted. I frequently, at the Master Gardener exhibit, drag out the Sunset Western Garden book and ask people, “Do you have this?” And if you don’t, you can check it out at any good library and tell them that this book divides the western portion of the United States into twenty-four different micro zones. And I open the map and we can usually identify where they’re living, and at least before they go away, I can tell them, “Oh, you open up Sunset Garden book, and you want to look at what apple varieties grow in your microclimate, look for this number on the microclimate.” Because, unfortunately, as a Master Gardener I’ve had people tell me they have purchased certain fruit trees, certain varieties, and I ask, “Oh, where are you gardening?” And I have to tell them, “That variety is not adapted to your microclimate. It’s not going to thrive.” And I even had a personal situation. Years ago, there was a new variety of—I’ve forgotten whether it was, um, a peach or a nectarine—and it came out—it was supposed to be okay for zone 24, close to the coast in southern California. And the next year, after I’d bought it that year, the next year they said “Sorry. We made a mistake. It’s further inland that it’s adapted to.” So, I dug up the tree, had a fellow Master Gardener who lived further inland and said “Would you like 13 �this tree? Because I bought this under the belief that it was going to thrive, and now they’ve changed what they’ve recommended.” Karasik: Right. Graham: So, it is critical to do your research first to be successful in gardening. And we don’t want you wasting water, putting water on varieties of plants that are not adapted to your microclimate, whether it’s fruit trees or just ornamentals. Karasik: That is so important. So— Graham: Especially with water being super critical now. Karasik: Absolutely, which will be another interesting aspect to look at when future generations, uh—what that’s going to be like. Do you—So, was your husband involved in the Master Gardeners too? Or then did you—you didn’t work, uh, when you had your son. Graham: Right. Karasik: And then what–what did he do? (Carol looks puzzled at the question) What was his work? Did he st— Graham: My–my husband’s work? Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Well, he continued to work for the Lockheed Marine Biological Research. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now he wasn’t involved directly in Master Gardeners, but I must say that, uh, there were frequently times when I would have a long day at a Master Gardener exhibit, um, like you experienced at the Encinitas EcoFest recently, and I’d be driving home and very often he had the garage door open for me, ‘cuz I had told him when I went off, I hoped to be back in this time period, and the garage door was opened. I could drive right in. And he was a great cook, so it was wonderful because there was dinner waiting for me all ready and he really spoiled me. (chuckles) So— Karasik: That’s so wonderful. Graham: —not directly in Master Gardeners but he did support me to a high degree in Master Gardener. Karasik: Yeah. Behind ever—huh—there’s a saying: “Behind every great man is an exhausted woman.” (both she and Carol chuckle) Graham: Right. 14 �Karasik: And so I think we could probably— Graham: (nodding her head) Yes. Karasik: —turn that around. Um, what would you say some–are some of your greatest accompish–accomplishments in your life? Graham: Well, reaching out to so many people at Master Gardeners has made me really feel good in that, as I say, I want people, ideally, to have at least a little bit of a–an edible garden. So when their kids come around and the kids have the opportunity as young gardeners to pick that lovely tomato or bell pepper (gestures as if picking something with her right hand) or maybe it’s a fruit—a peach or nectarine—and eat it and say, “Mmm, really good,” that they directly understand where their food comes from. Karasik: (whispers) Yes. Graham: Because, while some of our food comes from the ocean and the rivers and the lakes, so much of it comes from the good earth. And children who grow up picking the stuff from their garden, I think, are going to realize that and makes a connection and be far less apt to pollute or litter. ‘Cuz they understand why would you want to put pollution or litter on the ground. That’s where your food comes from! Karasik: Exactly. Do you feel like you’ve been successful in educating hopefully thousands of people, because there is a lot of concern now about our food sources? And I myself just recently got a tower garden because I want to be able to grow my own food and it seems like we might be moving more to that. Um, you know, I don’t know if we want to get into it, but we may just want to mention because of the—being a–a–an oral history, you know, monocropping and how all the large corporations have taken over the farming. And so is this—Do you feel like you’ve had a little place in there where you’ve been able to— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —educate. Graham: And also sharing with people the experience. Well, there are some peaches and nectarines I’ve enjoyed purchasing in the market, but none of them have the fantastic flavor that my mother and I used to grow and the Panamint nectarine—that’s the one we really adore. And some people love the Babcock peach, but that’s sweet-on-sweet. And my personal taste buds like the sweet with tang, which the Panamint lives up to. So, you can customize better your favorites by growing them. And of course, the macadamia! Well, the macadamia nut—what is that— $12.99 to $19.99 a pound for the nuts in the market when you buy them. Well, you can grow them yourself. They’re easy to grow, although heads up! (points her left pointer finger into the air). I want to alert everybody. They are really a lot of work to crack, even if you buy the specific macadamia cracker which I bought. But so I try to educate people as to this and— Karasik: Mm-hmm. 15 �Graham: ‘Cuz the macadamia tree was my husband’s, um—I don’t know if it was his birthday, or his Christmas present the first year after we moved in. He wanted a macadamia. Karasik: Nice. Well, I’m definitely going to be coming to you, because even me being over in the far east side of North County, that is going to be different. And I’m very excited to learn more about what you think would be best for me to plant, primarily just for me to consume. Graham: Mm-hmm. Good. Karasik: That’s my—And also, did you want to talk a little bit about all the different flowers that are edibles that people don’t know about, different fl–like nasturtians [sic], for example. Graham: I’m really not educated on that aspect. My mother wasn’t into edible flowers, and I haven’t gone into it because I’ve been so enamored of the–the fruits, mais–mostly tree fruits. Karasik: Sure, yeah. Pe— Graham: And–and thornless blackberries! Karasik: Oh! Graham: Yes, ‘cuz I grew up with the Olallie blackberry which mother had which was delicious but boy does that have thorns! (holds up both her hands, fingers spread wide to emphasize prickliness of thorns) Karasik: Really! Graham: Decades of research and now we have thornless varieties out there. Karasik: Oh, I didn’t know that! Graham: So, yes. Triple crown. Karasik: It’ll–it’ll be really interesting for botanists, for example, who might be–get to hear these–this interview, in particular, and see how things have changed. I mean, there is certainly the concern that California may become a desert. And we do definitely have water issues right now. Does that, uh, take up some of your time of concern? Graham: It is concerning. However, I tell people, “Well, um, hopefully when we get off this third year of really severe drought here in San Diego County and people actually start to feel they can put plants in the ground again, well, instead of putting ornamentals, why not put some edibles? Wouldn’t that be a better use of the water?” And as I said you can also customize, so you can put your–your edible in the variety that you couldn’t even find in the market. Karasik: Right. Like sunchokes, Jerusalem artichokes. Those are hard to find, and very nutritious— Graham: Yeah. Karasik: —for example. Well, we could certainly talk about gardening (both Graham and Karasik chuckle). And that’s–and that was a lot of my reason for wanting to interview you, 16 �because I think this will be very interesting to, um, our descendants. I guess, uh, if there’s anymore that you’d like to tell about what you–what like what changes you would like to see for future generations, and if you had a chance to talk to some of these future generations, not just around Master Gardening but just about life in general and what you’ve learned over the years, what–what you think is most important that, uh— Graham: Well, continuing on some of the issues that we mentioned—less lawn, and more drought tolerant or edibles. Um, now there are some people who have a legitimate desire to have a lawn. They have young kids who do want to play on it. But that doesn’t mean they have to have a lawn both front and the back. And, um, after a certain length of time, maybe they want to take the lawn out because their kids are no longer playing on it— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And cracking open the reference books, even good old Sunset Western Garden book. And it has a plant finder section. And one of the things that it addresses there are low water use plants. Karasik: Drought tolerant. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: As well as delving through the various edibles— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —making sure you select the right variety for your microclimate, so you’re successful and don’t waste water on a variety that was doomed from the start. Karasik: Yeah. Hmm, well, we’ve just covered that so well. I think, more than—it sounds like you’ve had a wonderful life and, of course, everything’s not perfect. There is a question here. What are your regrets? Or what would you do over if you could. Did you want to speak to that by chance? Or— Graham: Well, I regret my husband passed away. My husband died. Karasik: Yes. If you want to— Graham: And I didn’t appreciate enough all the great cooking he used to do. Um, so now I’m spending a whole lot more time from going to the grocery store and buying the food and prepping the food and thinking ahead, “Okay, I have this many drumsticks. Am I going to eat chicken this many nights, or am I going to eat some of this, and what’s in the freezer, and how much time it takes.” ‘Cuz I’ve a terribly neglected yard. But I am enjoying the social aspect of going out for Master Gardener exhibits. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Especially since my husband is gone now. 17 �Karasik: Right. Graham: So— Karasik: And it hasn’t been that long, so—I know that, um, my condolences and I know how that is. We–we all have to accept that part of life. And— Graham: Mm-hmm. I’m grateful that he did have a good quality of life up until the very end. Karasik: Yes. And I think, too, that again that’s a lot why this oral history project is so important. Because we don’t realize what interesting lives people have had. And it doesn’t get documented. So, we certainly have more time. Um, here’s a couple of questions here around community that might–might be interesting. It says “In what w–ways is your neighborhood special or has it been unique or what are some of the favorite places in your community, and how has–how has this area changed since you moved here? And that’s— Graham: Yeah. Karasik: ―a big one. Graham: When my husband and I first moved here, we didn’t even buy groceries in Encinitas because there were very few grocery stores, you know. This was over forty-five years ago. And there was a grocery store we’d go right past when we were leaving that place of work. So, it made more sense to stop there, but it wasn’t in Encinitas. And of course, I like to spend my consumer dollars in my own community. And now we have over ten grocery stores!! I mean, in an hour—excuse me, in a mile and a half, I can walk to four different grocery stores in my community. And frequently I am walking because it’s checking off my exercise for the day and checking off my eco-point for the day, ‘cuz I’m not driving my vehicle, um, and I enjoy it! And Encinitas allows me to do this because of all the grocery stores they have, which forty-five years ago— Karasik: And they’re some of the finest–some of the finest grocery stores. Graham: Nice diversity. Karasik: Not the least expensive, by any means, but definitely some of the highest quality and the largest diversity of what is offered. Graham: Yes. And we have farmer’s markets. Karasik: We do. Graham: Two of them in Encinitas. Karasik: Yeah. Let’s talk–let’s talk a little bit about those. Do you get to know any of those farmers? Or— Graham: I actually—way back when, was it Harry Stone? Don’t quote me.—who founded the first farmer’s market in San Diego County up in Vista. He was a member of the California Rare 18 �Fruit Growers. And I’ve been an avid member of the California Rare Fruit Growers for decades. And the idea took off and it was great. Karasik: You know, another interview that I did, I learned that the–there is a big difference, obviously, between an egg farm, a truck farm, and a—are you familiar with that? So, the truck farm is the vegetables that you would then truck to the market. And then obviously the egg farm and the chickens, because Cal State San Marcos that was a huge egg farm. And actually, on the way over here you were telling me there was a wonderful nursery here that has now been— Graham: Sunshine Gardens Nursery is now closed, and it was a very nice nursery for I don’t know how many decades here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. And now it’s–it’s–they’re making room for housing because we need that, and–and I think all the more reason. We have community gardens here. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Did you want to talk a little bit about that? Graham: I think it’s wonderful we have a community garden, quite close to the Heritage Museum here in Encinitas. And there are people who live in condominiums or apartments and they don’t have a yard to put a garden. So, community garden gives them wonderful opportunity. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now, I do want to encourage people, even if they don’t have a yard, to consider possibly growing—we used to call it pot culture, but now that gives you the wrong impression— container gardening! (laughs) Karasik: Right. Graham: Yes. For instance, you can grow a nice return of blackberries, pick the thornless varieties in a fifteen-gallon pot, fifteen-gallon black plastic pot. Or you can put a more decorative pot if you’d like and make it more decorative, and you can put it on your balcony perhaps on your condominium or apartment. Mind that you give it full sun, etc. But, even without having a yard, there are some edibles you can grow if you research things carefully. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Have you found that people in your neighborhood come to you and ask you for your advice? Or how do you—(both she and Graham chuckle) I think I’m going to be asking you for some advice, for sure. Graham: Well, this was an interesting first four months in the year 2022. I captured six gophers. Now only one of them in my yard. I’m grateful for it was only one in my yard. But the other five were in three different neighbors’ yards. And I was labeled the gopher getter. I’ve captured gophers in other yards previous years too, but this was an especially active first four months of the year, for some reason. 19 �Karasik: Do you think—and I might even have heard somewhere—do you think that the drought had a lot to do with that, that they might even be seeking water or food, or are–are they—maybe they’ve increased their offspring. Do we know why? Graham: I don’t think so. I didn’t hear anything connecting those variables. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: It was just a— Karasik: And then where do you take ‘em? When you catch them. Graham: Well, there are no have-a-heart traps for gophers. You realize this is–(makes a gesture with her right hand of cutting off her head and lets out a scraping sound) these are kill traps. Karasik: Oh. Graham: Because the gopher is not a wanted critter to release in a wild area. No. So, the traps you’d use are kill traps for gophers. Karasik: Hmm. Unfortunate, but necessary. Graham: Mm-hmm. Because remember if you don’t deal with it early, the pest note that University of California Cooperative Extension puts out on gophers, I believe it says, “In irrigated areas, like our gardens, gophers can have up to three litters a year.” And I believe they said the number in the litter can vary from like five to seven. So, that’s a pretty horrific number of offspring they could produce in a year, if you don’t deal with them quickly. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And I think it was this year I was given the gopher getter title, because the one party I trapped a gopher successfully was just put the trap in one day and the next day I had it. And she happened to comment to her neighbor across the street, and he had a gopher, so he contacted me. And there were these three neighbors fairly close to each other on an adjacent street, that— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Graham: And the first four months of the year that—bing–bing–bing. Karasik: Hmm. Um, going back to—you’ve mentioned a couple of times. So it’s U.C. California San Diego, because when I tried to contact you, there is a division there. Do you want to tell us a little bit how that’s set up, ‘cuz I know you’re kind of under their umbrella. And— Graham: Well, the Master Gardener program is a volunteer branch of the University of California Cooperative Extension. It’s not just one university, ‘cuz sometimes people have thought, “Oh, you’re office is at U.C.S.D.” No, no, it’s actually in the County Operations Center in Corina Mesa. Karasik: Mmm. 20 �Graham: And we have information that is generated from all of these universities throughout the state. Now some of it applies directly to where we’re here in the San Diego. Another applies to more northern California areas. But the information clearly tells you that. And of course, our tax money is paying for some of this research, because we have a very productive agricultural economy in California. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And the research is directed toward the agricultural, commercial aspect. But there are spinoff bits of information that are generated that directly help the home gardener as well. So we’re out there. As a matter of fact, if I can bend your ear, the story about the creation of the Master Gardener program was apparently it started in Washington state. And this good-hearted cooperative extension agent was getting a lot of calls, people having questions on their home garden situation. But he was being paid to advise and help out the commercial growers and farmers. And he didn’t want to be rude and not help them, but he had his plate full helping the commercial farmers. So he got the brilliant idea. I’ll train a crew of volunteers and when I get a home garden question I will pass the question on to them. And that’s what I was told started the Master Gardener program. And now I’ve been told that we actually have Master Gardeners in all fifty states. Karasik: Oh, wow, good. Graham: So— Karasik: Oh, that’s great. Well, um, we’ve certainly had an interesting conversation here and if there’s anything else that you would like to tell. We’re so appreciative of the work that you’ve done and I can see where that’s been a really big part of your life and I’ve–I’m assuming very rewarding— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —and it’s enabled you to make a lot of friends and— Graham: And I’d like to say also I’m very pleased to volunteer for the Solana Center for Environmental Innovation. Karasik: Oh, that’s such a great place. Graham: Right here in Encinitas. Karasik: Let’s talk about that just for a little bit, because again in the future I think that will be something that will still be here. Graham: Yes, of course. Karasik: And they do so many things there. Let’s talk about that a little bit. Graham: Well, they were at the Encinitas EcoFest, right next to my Master Gardener exhibit. And they teach many aspects and as far as gardening, composting, very important. And instead of having that truck rumble through your neighborhood once a week and pick up the green waste 21 �in the bin, if more of us could compost on site, it would help the environment. Also, of course, if you’ve ever gone to the nursery and priced bags of potting soil and compost, it’s not inexpensive if you consider the number of bags you could use as an avid gardener for the year. Karasik: And I don’t know if we always know where all that soil came from. Graham: Well, it is nice to have control of it from your own garden and know what went into it exactly. Karasik: Exactly. Graham: And while it does take a little bit of room and it does take some time, it also is a nice excuse to get out into the fresh air in the garden. Karasik: What do you recommend, because I know a lot of people are afraid to compost because they think it will bring critters? Graham: Oh, okay. When you are putting certain elements in the compost pile that you think might accidentally bring critters like the egg shell, or the citrus peel or the avocado pits or something, it is highly recommended that you bury that in the compost pile with a layer at least four inches maybe even six inches of yard trimmings above it. That will basically absorb any odors and of course it’s not recommended that you put bones in the compost pile, because that would tend to attract critters. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Now, will–will worms come into that? Or is a worm compost kind of a separate approach to composting? Graham: Well there is vermicompost in a worm bin. Karasik: Right. Graham: Worms will come into your compost pile. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And you give them things to eat. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: The fruit waste, like the peels and pits, etc. As well as the decomposing leaves and twigs, etc. Karasik: Leftover food, and lettu—greens, things like that. Graham: Vegetables and fruits leftover. Karasik: Yeah. Yeah. Graham: Not meat. Of course. Karasik: Right, right. 22 �Graham: Not meat or bugs. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And of course, you’ve moistened the environment in the compost pile to help it decompose and they–worms breathe through their skin and they need a moist–yep, they actually need a moist skin to survive. So, they are very happy to find this moist environment which offers them perfect lodging and food buffet, moisture, yes. Karasik: Just for my own curiosity. I’ve always been fascinated by earthworms and the fact that you’ve–that you’ve–they’re w–w–one of the few living beings where you can cut off their head and they’ll grow another one. Is that correct? Graham: No. that’s not— Karasik: They’ll grow, maybe not their head, but the back end or— Graham: No. Karasik: That’s not true? Graham: Um, too many people—I mean, depending on the amount you cut off at the tail end, they might survive. Karasik: Not intentionally, obviously. Graham: Yeah. But if you accidentally cut one in two, some people have this misconception that you’ll get two worms. No. It’ll die. Karasik: Aw. I had that misconception. Graham: Yeah. That’s a popular— Karasik: And they are so critical. Graham: Yes. Karasik: They are so critical. But probably one of the most or when we look at–at soil. Are you familiar with soil regeneration and some of the ways that they’re trying now to—because so much of our soil has been depleted? Do you get involved in that, or are you just— Graham: Well, with the compost pile, you’re helping replenish. Karasik: mm-hmm. Graham: And when you think about it, okay. The nutrients it takes for let’s say your peach tree to make peaches, it has to make leaves. Well, some of that is from the very leaves that came, matured, off the tree. So, you’re recycling it in the compost pile and putting it back underneath the tree when you’re putting some compost into the soil under your peach tree. Karasik: Right. Wonderful. That’s–that’s a good point as well. 23 �Graham: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: So you’re just basically recycling the nutrients as opposed to chucking them into the trash and hauling them off to the land fill. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And not even chucking them into the green bin and having them hauled off. But, at least when it goes to the green facility at Miramar, it gets repurposed. But it’s more. Karasik: Have you ever visited that place? Graham: Oh yes! It was fantastic. This was decades ago. Karasik: That would be a wonderful tour. Graham: There was a field trip—I don’t remember if it was Master Gardeners or the Encin—the Solana Center sponsored the field trip decades ago. It was so much fun! And wow, it was interesting. Karasik: I’d like to do that. I’d also like to visit one of these desalination plants and see how they’re doing that. Graham: Oh, yes. Karasik: Because that seems to be the future. Now, that’s another point. Graham: I was able to take a tour of that too. That was Solana Center that hosted that decades ago. Karasik: Oh, did they? Graham: From up the street at the Carlsbad Desalinization Plant. Karasik: Yes! I might ask them if they know how somebody can do that now. One other thing I wanted to ask about the Solana Center. I had seen something where you can get some buckets and take it home, and so you can kind of get compost from them, or maybe a starter? How does that work? Graham: Um, you pay a fee. I—don’t quote me because I’m not sure exactly how much it is. You get a bucket to take home, and you put your fruit and vegetable waste in it, and also bones and—in other words, if you’re not composting you put these materials in there. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And it has some bokashi in it, which ferments it. Karasik: Is bokashi an organism that breaks it down? Graham: It’s a— 24 �Karasik: What is that? Graham: —it’s more like a chemical— Karasik: Oh, okay. Graham: —that pickles it. I think it’s what they compare it to. Karasik: Okay. Graham: And you can take that back, and then you can get some finished compost as well. So— Karasik: Oh, that’s how— Graham: —but you’ll–you’ll want to call the Solana Center and ask for the details. Karasik: Right. Yes. I’ve been over there and they were very supportive to us— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —for the EcoFest as well. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Well, I just want to thank you for your time. And this has been a really interesting and educational interview. And you have definitely had a wonderful life, and I sense the fact that you will be around for quite a while and helping a whole lot more people. And I’m so happy to know you and really appreciate your time, and what you’re going to offer for future generations. Graham: Well, thanks for this opportunity to reach out to people. Karasik: Oh, absolutely. You’re so welcome. So again we’re—actually, I don’t know if I mentioned this. We’re at the San Dieguito Heritage Museum which is here in Encinitas and I really wish that people could see that, although they’ll have the opportunity to do that, you know, locally. But the history here at this particular museum is incredible, as well. So, would encourage people to come out if they happen to listen to this and we thank them also for the opportunity to use their equipment, and hope that this will be a good video. So, thank you very much. Graham: You’re very welcome. Karasik: And we will finish here. 25 �GLOSSARY Babcock peach (pg. 15) Biophaline (pg. 7, 8) California Rare Fruit Growers (pg. 18-19) Carlsbad Desalinization Plant (pg. 24) County Operations Center [Corina Mesa] (pg. 20) EcoFest (pg.1, 6, 10, 14, 21, 25) Glyphosate (pg.6) Heritage Museum (pg. 19) Integrated Pest Management (pg.3, 4) Johns Hopkins University (pg. 11) Kirkcaldy, Scotland (pg. 12) Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility (pg. 10, 14) Master Gardener(s) (pg. 1-4, 6, 12-15, 17, 20-21, 24) Panamint nectarine (pg. 15) Polychaete (pg. 7, 8) San Dieguito Heritage Museum (pg. 25) San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station [Plant One] (pg. 7, 8, 10, 12) Solana Center for Environmental Innovation (pg. 21, 24-25) Stone, Harry (pg. 18) Sunset Western Garden book (pg. 13, 17) Sunshine Gardens Nursery (pg. 19) Truck farm (pg. 19) University of California Cooperative Extension (pg. 12, 20, 21) Vermicompost (pg. 22) 26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Graham. Carol. Interview transcript, November 4, 2022. Description An account of the resource Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carol Graham Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Suzy Karasik Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-04 Subject The topic of the resource Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control Gardening -- California -- San Diego County Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County Organic farming San Diego State University San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.) University of California (System). Cooperative Extension Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) North San Diego County (Calif.) 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Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_Transcription Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/68cc93b349d572359c4680f7c6576237.pdf 742db1a15707b29f357b16addcd6bf62 PDF Text Text ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta Estrada, thank you for joining me today. Roberta Estrada: My pleasure. Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part–the best place to start is a little bit of background—where you were born—and let’s talk about what was your childhood, like when you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I’ll give you plenty of time to go over that. Estrada: Well, I was born in–at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and I’m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the Midwest, and we’re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i–wa– well, she’s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey area, and I am actually a—let me think now, what—third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I started kindergarten. And my dad says, “No, that’s too close to Camp Pendleton. I’m out of the Marine Corps now. So, we’re going to move.” So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten children in Vista, so I didn’t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista and my dad says, “Met a couple and they said ‘Oh no, you have to put your child in school in San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.’” So, he says, “Okay, we’ll shift you over there.” So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then—now it’s changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to—we didn’t have high school in San Marcos. So, the kids that–the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and so my dad says, “We’ll get you in there.” Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that–children–all the friends that I had and been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a city in 1963. Karasik: Very interesting. Estrada: Yes, and it’s been— Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to the school that you’d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native American children there? And let’s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how you felt that might have been an advantage. Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy, very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 children, and I don’t think I even associated with Native American children being—or picked out children as being—Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don’t believe I ever did. And I don’t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I don’t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family— well, his fam–his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native American—the last name of Estrada was because that–his grandfather worked for people whose name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town, they had to have a last name. They couldn’t just go by their Native American names. So, they took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the–the owners of the ranches and that’s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first one to get in—no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father was also Native American. And s–their–my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that’s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I guess you would say, or—well, actually there weren’t a lot of Natives. There were more Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area. Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k–refer to people as Natives or as Indians. Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they could not claim being Indian or Native American and–or they would be put on—just like on the opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim–they ha–the Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And— Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present yourself when you were in school or those situations. Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school. Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home. Estrada: A little bit. Well, be–the first thing that happened was that my father didn’t speak any— well, my mother spoke Spanish and that–because that was–they didn’t use a lot of the Native language at the time, and my father didn’t. So, it was, “Speak to the children in English. They need to learn in English.” And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to— and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact—but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest, and— Karasik: She would be allowed— Estrada: She would be allowed— (nodding) Karasik: —to raise the children. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: Yes. She would be. Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission— Estrada: Yes. Karasik: —Band. Estrada: They were—well, yes. They were married in–at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and that’s when–shortly after I was–I was probably about late high school when I–when my mother was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others than–than trying to–to say “You’re–you’re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about this. You need to do this. You need to do that.” She never really pointed that out to us. I have a younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start with. And then–and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft–no, before he passed away. Karasik: I’m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and you are now, are women more respected and it’s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren’t perhaps quite as— Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,—When you—If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I would say that there were times when I would say, “Why don’t they let her speak. Why don’t– Why does he have to talk for her?” You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I came—I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring–I was hired as a bilingual teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children in and not being allowed. The–the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the–for–for them. Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and look to see if it was okay to answer or not. Karasik: And what year was this? Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ’70—let’s see, ’68. Karasik: Right. Estrada: I came back in ’68. I–What I had intended in–When I went to college, I went to college at a–what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn’t have to pay the extra in– tuition for anything. And when I came—and that was an experience in itself, because the— I mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 (chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ‘cuz it was only two years after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I–I said, “You know. I like Wisconsin. I like the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I’m a California girl.” I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San Bernardino. And I finished off my—Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require. Then I went to—When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don’t have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could—I’ve been retired for thirteen plus years now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I don’t because I’m too involved with too many other things. Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I’m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what was it like when you said, “I’m a California girl, and I want to come back.” It sounds like a lot of things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you noticed how the women didn’t feel as comfortable–comfortable to speak. But what kind of changes did you see when you came back to the area, and—not even so much what did you see, but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what–what did you kind of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life? Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a–a plus. I had a lot of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had– I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the–that. So, it just–and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the moms became more involved because dads had to be working. Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it–were you more free then to say “Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations.” Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I’m going to say it that way. Because I could make a lesson—and I’m not bragging—but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey’s candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn’t, you know—you go to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te—You’re here to learn is what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the— Karasik: Life skills. Estrada: —skills. Life skills. And we— Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Karasik: Yes. Estrada: We made ice cream, so they’d learn how to measure. And we would—we celebrated all the cultures. You couldn’t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped. Karasik: And there wasn’t a problem with that? Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was— Karasik: That you knew of. Estrada: There were—I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was observed a lot, and everything—I never had any problems with—and we had to turn in lesson plans on it. You know, it was just like “you want me to tell you exactly what I’m going to be doing in every single minute?” “Yes, we do.” “Okay. So, I’ll write down general ones and you can come in and look any time you want.” (laughs) Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an–a–a–a plus or an advantage for you to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those— Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: —connections and that made your life a lot more. Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a—at that time they weren’t moving out of California. I mean, they weren’t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed. Karasik: And people weren’t moving in as much, as well, as they are now. Estrada: We did–yeah. The–in my later years in teaching, then we had the–the children from Vietnam, the chil—you know, that–the immigrants from there. So— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: During that Vietnam time. Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that—integrated them into the class. Or how did you handle some of that? Estrada: (laughs) You’re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget–I forget that wasn’t their second lan–their first language. And I would—but I—uh, there’s just one little– one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English when she started. So, we ran the—well, we were already using an ESL program because of going in to—well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Karasik: Oh, isn’t that great! Estrada: Yeah. So, in her–in her twelve years, you know, she was, um–she just moved right up the ladder. But it didn’t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some! (laughs) Karasik: At a young age, yes. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: It’s a lot easier. Well, I’d kind of like to move on to—I mean there’s—we could talk about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you’re a–a basket weaver. I don’t know if it’s a—if there’s certain levels or if you’re a professional. Estrada: I’m a beginner! Karasik: Oh, you are? But you’re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably. Estrada: Oh, yes! Karasik: But when did you—like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later in your retirement years or was it in—and you were raising children? Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are—I don’t even know—they’re 43 and 40, I think, right now. Forty—no, they’re 41 and 44. One’s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say that I didn’t really become involved in–as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it’s been in the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn’t feel like I had enough time. I–I know you were a teacher also. But I–And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used to tell me, “Aren’t you done—Aren’t you off your job clock yet?” Or something like that would always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that’s when I’ve really become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania Caudell says, “Come with me. You’re not working today. Come with me. I’m going to do a presentation at a school,” or “Come and help me.” That’s how it started. And, when we teach in the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it’s a little bit easier and we don’t use traditional plants at that time, because you don’t know if they’ve had any insecticide in them. You don’t know if they—you know, how safe or they’re going to have a reaction. And that’s the last thing you want if you go into a cla–into a group of 50 kids and have to do a–a–a basket and have somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that’s what I’ve been doing now. Because we’re doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools—I mean, Montessori–for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some—Well, we’ve done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it’s a puberty rock for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the–the schools have been–wa–Cal State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we’ve become involved with some of her classes too. We also have—we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use the–the juncus and the–and the deer grass, and we’re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school in San Luis Rey. Karasik: Oh, there’s so much there. One thing—when you said “cane,” I–I’m–I’m thinking sugar cane. Estrada: Oh, no. It’s— Karasik: Wha— Estrada: —it’s the in–inside part of bamboo. Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay. Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it—and it–it comes— Karasik: Now, who’s they. Do you get it—? Estrada: It’s from—we get it from a company in–in–in Huntington Beach. Karasik: So, it is processed. Estrada: It’s processed. Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware–a greenhouse of— Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there. Karasik: Uh-huh. Estrada: Only because, um, it’s just safer— Karasik: It’s trusted. Estrada: —to use with it— Karasik: —a trusted source, yeah. Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I— Karasik: I—yeah. Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said “Puberty Rock.” So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an— your ancestors, I mean the— Estrada: I’m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you—there’s markings. It’s on Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then of course, in the modern day, it’s been vandalized and so we’ve worked a lot with different companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot of that, because you can’t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has–(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose— (laughs) Karasik: Oh! Estrada: —now, so that you can’t go near it. But it was–the—Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that’s where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s–sign that, you know, a— Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony. Estrada: It’s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants, and I don’t know what else. But the girls did, but— Karasik: Did you participate? Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She reset—she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that’s it, you know. I never really—before she passed away—never really found out what the “it” was or the “something” was. Karasik: Right. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And that’s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you― Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I’m learning so much more about the Native culture and the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins, this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little shoulder sometimes that would say, “Oh, that’s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or your cousin blah,” and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because she was the–considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that’s been four years, a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that’s when I would learn more. I’d say, “I’ve seen them before, mom, but I don’t really remember.” She says, “Well, when we were at your uncle’s house in the valley, that part of his family―” And I thought, okay. Those were the kinds of things that― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Karasik: When you say, “I’ve seen them,” you’re talking about some of the people that were in your family. Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, “Gee, a lot of these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize.” And I would stop to think, and I’d have to either go up and ask them, “Have I met you before?” (laughs) Or something like that. So that I would be able to make a connection. Karasik: Mmm. Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before. Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was more advantageous to be Latin or― Estrada: Mexican. Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would–I would love to have known more of the rituals or some of the ceremonies. Estrada: I’m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But then―I say we didn’t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way, we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we’ve had a powwow the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we would be gathering at a–a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um, because there were eleven in my mom’s family, and then their kids and down through that, so― And then, besides the other brothers. One brother–one of my grandfather’s brother—had all daughters. I think there’s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven. So that they―it–you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists) My grand–my paren–my grandfather’s fa–family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my mother’s family―I felt like she was a–a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this brother’s kids with this brother’s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the center). And that’s kind of what I’m doing now. Karasik: Interesting. Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you’d say. Karasik: Of your mother. How–what a beautiful way to honor her. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband’s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it’s always “I’m going to call Roberta, because she’ll know.” Well, if Roberta doesn’t know, she tries to figure it out and find out who it is, you know, make a connection. Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word “pride.” Was―because the–the times have changed now, di–but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about, like where you said it was easier to say I’m Mexican. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And, um, whe–where is that now, and h–how has that changed over the years? And do you feel much more–more pride and feel that it’s more important? Or― Estrada: I think it’s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done. But I think we’re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, “Oh! This is getting good.” Because now they’re becoming more involved. For a while, it’s always the same group. And that group is getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we’re trying to―right now, I’m working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the thirty-and-unders people, to get in–more involved. And so, we’re working together and getting those―I couldn’t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And then at the―We went–After that, we went to the Inyan–Indian monument that’s in San Luis Rey Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There’s an Indian monument, and we had quite a large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts, and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel–to feel that so many of these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, “Well, we’d like to know more about this. Or maybe learn about that.” Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys― Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they’ve claimed their culture. Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with. Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren’t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles) Estrada: No. And it–they were not. And now they’re, um―they don’t live in the area. They both live in Arizona now. But they’re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though. And they will want, say, “Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I’ll come for powwow. Are we going to have it?” “Mom, I don’t think I’m quite sure on what to do with this.” But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles) Karasik: Yes. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: That’s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So― Karasik: Yeah. I think it’s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it’s been sort of not in fashion― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it’s very much in fashion. Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you’ll hear that when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They’ll say, “We want to acknowledge that we are on Native land.” We want to― Karasik: Absolutely. Estrada: ―you know. That’s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you didn’t see that before. Karasik: Absolutely. I–I find that in–in, just when I’m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I put what city I’m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we’re on (gestures quotes with her fingers) Karasik: Kume― Estrada: ―Native land. We’re on Ku―we’re―well, yes. We’re not on Kumeyaay land. We’re on―we’re in between, now. It’s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area. Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes― Estrada: Seven tribes. Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from the government or from the tr–tribe itself? Estrada: Government. Karasik: From the government. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it’s some kind of a governmental requirements to― Estrada: Yeah. There’s a lot of r–there’s a lot of red tape, you may as well say― Karasik: Right, right. Estrada: ―that you have to jump through. Karasik: And–and is― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 11 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a–for a period of time. And so, that’s one of the things. Karasik: Of being like a sovereign― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: ―nation or–or― Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: You know. Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you’ll find if they’re doing any activities, you’ll find people that are recording that, so they’ll have a recording of what’s going on now. And― Karasik: Documentation― Estrada: ―documentation of all of that. Karasik: ―every―Right. Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things with the–the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we’re from. Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was–would be available. Giving―I don’t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where everything came from. You don’t say it’s yours if it’s not yours. Karasik: So, there’s a respect for the origin of it, and then there’s also a–a, like you said, a recognition or a–um, yeah. I–I’m–I’m thinking of so many things. I–You said “tekua.” Is that some organization, or what― Estrada: It’s the Cherokee, Cherokee band. Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who’s that umbrella? Estrada: Cherokee. Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath― Estrada: Yeah. They’re part of the Cherokee. Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they― Estrada: No. They’re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area. Karasik: Oh, right. Okay. Estrada: In that area. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 12 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there’s just so much there. And you’ve really been wonderful to kind of branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I–I want you to tell me how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What–what are–what kinds of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for–for them, and that’s why we’re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your accomplishments, if there’s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story. Estrada: Well, it’s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteenyear-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time. And so, yes, I’m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having the pride, not hiding yourself. And it’s important to know that one of the things that—I mean, San Marcos―I have to say. I don’t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then Vista. So, we’ve lived in North County. But it’s always had a place in my heart. And the people are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with people from the egg ranch—Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch—and just having, you know, and like all those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there’s more to it than Minecraft on the computer. Karasik: Uh, absolutely. Estrada: And so― Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, “oh, there’s probably a whole story there.” So, some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they’re still here. So that’s― Estrada: (shakes her head). Karasik: Oh, they’re not. Oh. Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was–is built― Karasik: On― Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch. Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that? Estrada: It was hard at first. Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well― Estrada: Um, probably. Karasik: ―that we know of? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 13 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High School, they’re–in where they’re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there’s a lot of orange fencing, because that’s all—the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom’s aunts worked and–and my mom—I don’t think my mom’s mother did but—my mom’s aunts were in a lot of those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or working in these areas. Karasik: Yeah. I’m curious there, because I–I know back, you know, pre-modern technology, they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or― Estrada: Ours went–Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather’s father was a sheep herder. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: And he would–would go up in that area. His―My grandmother’s brothers were miners and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way. San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with her hands) and diverse themselves, and that’s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming and into construction and things like that. Karasik: So, you heard about your mother’s mother and father, or your–even like your husband’s parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel― Estrada: It’s all oral story. Karasik: Yeah. And–and so that oral history, you― Estrada: Is important. Karasik: ―Absolutely. Estrada: It’s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now. Karasik: And that’s a lot why we’re doing it here. Estrada: That’s a big reason why I’m very into what’s going on right now. Yes. Karasik: And I think you’ve done a fantastic job. Estrada: Oh. Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it’s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who’s doing this project, is on that land. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 14 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: So, in a way, it is–they are giving back. Estrada: They’re sharing. Karasik: Which is–is really good. Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this “site” (gestures air quotes) that we’re in today was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria. Karasik: This specific building? Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her hands) “dances” inside this building. We did our choir from the stage. Karasik: This stage? Estrada: This stage. The only thing that’s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a–you could be a cafeteria helper. Karasik: Sure. Estrada: And, um, you’d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it― Karasik: It’s interesting. When you said “dancing.” So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing, was it more like “American culture?” Or was― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: It was. Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do–do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all. Karasik: Okay. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story. Estrada: (laughs) Karasik: Um, so, I’m thinking there’s not very many regrets. It sounds like you’ve really had a wonderful life. Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even more proud of my heritage. Karasik: Yes. Estrada: And then the–on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family members and my husband’s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could Transcribed by Melissa Martin 15 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I first started, Diania would say, “Let’s go.” Okay. I’d go and I’d stand in the background. Well, I listened a lot. Well, that’s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn’t speak English and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was one of the influential people, I’m learning, that second language that was so important in this area. But, um, now I’m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I can’t even say it. Because we’re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west. And so, it goes all along the western coast and in–into the mountain. Karasik: And is there anyone still around― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to teach some of that? Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes. Karasik: So― Estrada: Right now, they’re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young people. But there’s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we’ll see what happens. But they’re doing them on Zoom right now. Karasik: You― Estrada: Because you need to hear it. Karasik: I’m sure, yes. Estrada: You need to hear it. You can’t do it from the book― Karasik: You have to― Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I’ve got several little kid’s books that I’ve gotten from my grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes, you can do it that way, but you still don’t hear the correct pronunciation. Karasik: Yeah. That’s really important. The–it’s–I’m feeling like in some ways it’s full circle. You know. It’s coming back full circle, and now a–a–the pride is really more known amongst― Estrada: I think it’s more evident now and you can feel it. Karasik: And even outside of your culture. Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture, about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 16 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Karasik: That must feel wonderful. Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, “You know, I really feel very proud to be part of this group.” And it ma–it makes you feel like― Karasik: Right. Estrada: ―you’re doing something good. Karasik: Absolutely. I’m so happy for you. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there’s anything else that you’d really like to say, but I feel like we’ve had a–a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: But if you―you know, there’s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil. Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they could have, you know, tell― Estrada: Conversations. Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our–your descendants had the opportunity to talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them― Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: ―what–what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should really pay attention to, and the things that don’t be so concerned with. Like, what’s the most important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that– that honors your–your history, your heritage. Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, “You need to live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults.” I mean, as we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to–to them. Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that’s fallen away right now. And that’s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors. Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the importance of the lives of people that have been and what they’ve gone through. I mean, nothing’s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter where it comes from, it’s important that they pick it up. Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 17 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and nephews, are really into it. But it’s not a―I guess it’s because it’s not immediately connected. Maybe that’s what it is? I mean “in bloodline” means nothing. Or how much blood―”quantum” does not mean anything. It means–what means something–what should mean something to them is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that’s what we’re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California recognition, and basically that’s because of water rights. But the Califor–the federally recognized tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who’s doing the work? Just keep plugging along and making sure that you’re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family. Karasik: That’s beautiful. Who’s doing the work. Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop― Estrada: Okay. Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we’ll see what happens with the archives, and what else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class. I don’t know if that’s possible. And I’m certainly wanting to attend and–and learn more, but― Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That’s basket weaving. Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that? Estrada: (nods) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: Yes, it is. Karasik: Oh, and we didn’t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be Native American― Estrada: Native American month. Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we’re celebrating and honoring it. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here. Estrada: Oh, thank you. Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word “crone,” does that come from your culture? Estrada: The what? Karasik: Crone? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 18 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: No. Karasik: Okay. It’s an elder woman. And I’m not really sure where it comes from. I think it might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is–is very strong. Estrada: It’s very strong. Karasik: And that’s really so important. And that–I think what the children―which you have shown in your family and with all your–all your relations. Karasik: Omitaki. Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them. Karasik: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much. Estrada: And thank you for having me. Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro–Oral History program. Estrada: Oral history. Karasik: Yes. Thank you very much! Transcribed by Melissa Martin 19 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 GLOSSARY Alvin Dunn School (pg.1) Cardiff (pg.9) Caudell, Diania (pg.6) Chamteela (pg.16) Creek Project (pg.14) Dia de Los Muertos (pg.9) Duenos (pg.2) Foussat (pg.2) Frybread (pg. 11) Indian Rock Road (pg.8) Kumeyaay (pg.11) La Mirada Academy (pg.1) Life Credential (pg.4) Luseño (pg.10) Marine Corps Hospital (pg.1) Mel (pg.17) Moro Hill (pg.8) Normal School (pg.4) Omitaki (pg.19) Pala (pg.2) Palomar (pg.4) Pamu (pg.9) Pauma (pg.9) Payómkawichum (pg.16) Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch (pg.13) San Jacinto (pg.10) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 20 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 San Luis Rey Mission (pg.2) San Marcos High School (pg.14) Tekua (pg.12) Tribal Council (pg.3) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 21 2023-04-06 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Estrada, Roberta. Interview Transcript. November 3. 2022. Description An account of the resource Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roberta Estrada Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Suzy Karasik Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-03 Subject The topic of the resource Basket making Education, ESL Endemic plants -- Southern California Luiseño Indians Refugees -- Vietnam Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) 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Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_transcript Community history Native American experience North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e62624fb1bdfebb2252e2ea132ab1d6e.pdf a47afc957202c225a5327331d4f153df PDF Text Text JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Jay Franklin here at the California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Wednesday, April 12th, 2023, and the time is 2:16. Hi, Jay. Uh, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your early life and family. Franklin: Woo. Awesome. Jay Franklin, uh, associate director of new student and family programs. Um, early life, uh, let's see. I grew up military. My dad was in the Navy for 24 years, so every two to three years we moved around a lot. Um, but I was fortunate enough to stay for a significant amount of time in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Um, and then had the opportunity to move out to California in 1999. California is my birth state, so when that opportunity came up, I moved away from Virginia Beach. My entire family network is in Virginia, Virginia Beach, and I just wanted to start anew out here in San Diego. Meyer: Nice. So, what was your educational journey like? Franklin: The typical ”Go to high school and you should go to college”. So I, I tried that route, or that was my original plan. My senior year, my junior year of high school, I was fortunate enough to get into a program that allowed me to go to beauty school, uh, cosmetology school. So I was able to use those elective units or those blocks of time to go to cosmetology school. So, by the time I graduated high school, I already had my cosmetology license. So, I went, I did the apply for college, uh, went to a local community college, Tidewater Community College in Virginia Beach, Virginia. And, realized as a full-time hair stylist, I was doing a lot like that whole typical, like, how many hours -- should I work full-time, parttime, go to school full-time, part-time? And, I did full-time both, and, of course that doesn't work out. And I felt as though I, in one of my classes, I'll never forget, my sociology instructor—professor--was sharing like how much they made. And I'm like, you make that? And I'm like, and you got your doctor whatever! And it just really was jarring and shocking for me because here I am, a professional hair stylist, uh, working in a, in a salon and also doing hair on the side. I was pulling in basically what that faculty member was saying was their salary. So I was like, why am I here? And it just wasn't a good fit. Um, so I didn't go-- I. I dropped out eventually. Actually, I, uh, history shows that I have a whole bunch of “WU”s [Withdrawal Unauthorized]. So I did the first semester, did great. Got A's and B's and, and A minus or something? Uh, and, and then my second semester I was like, that was when I encountered my sociology instructor and was basically sharing their, their salary. And I was like, I need to get outta here. So I just thought, just not showing up, you're done with class, and the, the university would just disenroll you and yeah, of course I'll disenroll you with “WU”s, so, those are F’s. And so my second semester at Tidewater Community College had a whole bunch of F's. Fast forward many years, at least a decade, and I started to see the number “30,” my age was coming up as thirty. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it's time to actually go back to school and get a career. And yeah, I have a great job doing hair, but that's a job. I really wanted to finish what I originally set out to do and go to college and get my bachelor's degree, and did it. So I went back to school and was a nontraditional student. Uh, I didn't want to go to SDSU, um, and was very adamant in not being, “hey, number 262 in the back row.” Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 1 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: I wanted to be a person, and found out that, uh, Cal State San Marcos was a brand-new school, smaller class sizes, and I, I didn't wanna leave San Diego. Worked so hard to get here and stay here. So, at that time, my partner and I were looking around for houses or condos to buy, and we just couldn't find anything in San Diego, ‘cause it was 2004 and the prices were just going up and up and up. So, fortunately, fortunately the housing or condo prices in San Marcos were affordable at that time. So, and telling my counselor at City College, she's like, “Oh, yeah, that actually works out better for you when you apply because you'll be in the service area of Cal State San Marcos.” So it, it worked out. And I was able to come to Cal State San Marcos as an undergrad non-traditional student, in fall of 2005, been here ever since. I mean, I did leave for a little bit and, uh, I did my undergrad, my grad here, but there was a stint as soon as I finished my undergrad, I didn't wanna work in a salon and I wanted a job that leveraged my bachelor's degree and was lucky enough to get a job at Bridgepoint Education or Asher University, and was a matriculation coordinator-- basically a transcript evaluator. Um, did that for a couple months, I think almost a year. And then worked my way up to Articulation Specialist-- which is like assist.org, it's like your articulation specialist, uh, counselor transfer counselor 24/7-- and was able to do that for Asher University. And while at a Christmas party for an office at Cal State San Marcos-- my partner worked at Cal State San Marcos at that time, so I was attending his--- was a Christmas party and was sharing with the dean at that time what I did. And it just worked out that they were having an emergency position that they said, “Hey, you should apply!” And the rest is history, as I say, I apply and then have been here ever since. So I did have a, a gap in my Cal State San Marcos life of about a year and a half where I worked externally. But boomeranged back to come to Cal State San Marcos, Meyer: Everything comes back to-Franklin: Totally, totally. Meyer: So, during your time at, at Cal State San Marcos, when you were an undergrad, how did you become aware of and become involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Franklin: I love it. Okay. So, um, in 2005, I was a non-traditional student, so I knew that yes, the, the university has the mission statement, vision statement, campus core values, and I, I moved up from Hillcrest, so I was very out and comfortable with myself and eagerly looked for the student organization for the LGBTQ+ community, and discovered it and found it and joined their group and was like, “Look, we need to have Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 2 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 some marketing. We need some banners, we need rebranding.” And I just, I just came, I, I wasn't a, a typical student. So I, I went to school and wanted to get the best out of my experience and basically became a marketing director for the student org, and then branded us and allowed us to get some visibility on campus because we wanted to increase our membership. And in that, I'm gonna say either that fall or early that spring, uh, our banner for our student org was stolen. And I thought it was very odd that a university would lose or allow something like that to occur. And, I thought it was really jarring to be called “faggot” on campus. And it was just really jarring. It was, it was very strange. It really reminded me of growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia with the 700 Club in the background, Christian Coalition [of America]… campus, yes, is supposed to be inclusive, and I just didn't get that vibe. I also was very comfortable in my being gay and championing the LGBTQ+ community causes up here. And to have our banner stolen, I immediately, like, “Who do I go to?” And our student org was like, “Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?” I'm like, the university has protocols, there's rules and policies, so we'll just work our way up to food chain to find out who's responsible for our safety and like, what, what can be done about this banner being stolen? And that was how I encountered Student Life and Leadership, because our student organization is founded out of Student Life and Leadership, so they were responsible for the student organization. And then it also allowed me to, out of SLL-- Student Life and leadership-- it also allowed me to encounter the Multicultural Programs Office or the Cross-Cultural Center, as it was slowly evolving into … So, that was my first encounter, was like, “Hey, what's going on?” Like, our student org didn't even know that the Cross-Cultural Center or the Multicultural Programs Office existed. So it was an opportunity for me to learn more about multicultural programs and the Cross-Cultural Center, but it also, uh, was allowed the student org to gain additional information and resources. So that's how we encountered it. That's how I personally discovered it. Meyer: So, what was the role of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time? I understand that it was like the university just starting out. Did it have more leeway or, or sway? Franklin: Um, I don't, I wouldn't say more leeway or sway. It was just a, to be honest, it was the reason why I was drawn into the space is there was, there were folks that looked like me, so it was predominantly Filipino or Asian, the folks that hung out in the center or the-- it was really a oversized closet, I want to say, like, as big as this room that we're in. So, it was a small closet, and a conference room, and it was filled with people that looked like me. We had the same conversations about our identity groups, and it was just a really welcoming environment. I was like, wow, it's refreshing to be in here versus the external campus. I mean, back then my hair was platinum or purple or pink or cheetah spots. It was whatever I felt like, I was a professional hairstylist so my hair changed often. It was like, see-through, iridescent, like— so, in that, in that space, I was able to just be myself. And then other students started sharing their stories and some students started coming out, and… it was… I, I wouldn't say there was like any sway or anything. It was just a spot that made me feel better. And then because I was in the center, more students were accessing the resources and, yeah. Our student org basically started leveraging the center-Meyer: Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 3 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 Mm-hmm. Franklin: For resources for the student org, because Student Life and Leadership has resources for student orgs, but so does—the Cross-- or the Multicultural Programs, Cross-Cultural Center has resources. So, once I knew that those things were available, our student org definitely started leveraging them and, and holding space and, and using resources. Like we made, we came up with marketing campaigns, events to help not just our student org professionally develop in leadership, but also sharing some of our lessons learned with other student orgs, like, Black Student Union, American Indian Student Association, MEChA [Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán], APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American], or-- I'm trying to remember all the other ones-- but Asian Pacific Islander student org, Vietnamese student org [Vietnamese Student Association]. So, all these different student orgs, their membership were students. And I felt really out of place because I was an older, non-traditional student, and I was pushing-- I wouldn't say pushing the envelope-- but I was just encouraging more leadership development, and sharing resources with students, saying, “These are things that you've paid for, you can leverage them and use them to the benefit of not just your student org, but for you professionally and get some-- grow your skillset.” Meyer: Mm-hmm. So, I understand you became a peer educator because you were so motivated to like, keep helping other students learn about the things they could utilize on campus. Um, could you talk a little bit about the peer educator program? Franklin: Yeah. So there were, I wanna say five of us. Uh, I'm looking at, let me look at my pictures. Meyer: No, that's totally fine. Franklin: There, there was Cheryl, Stephanie, Diana, myself, and Brittany, and that was May of 2007. I was just looking, referencing a picture of us as a group. As a peer educator, I kind of feel like, because I was a non-traditional student, I really looked at this as a job, as a-- I didn't know that student affairs was actually a career until encountering Student Life and Leadership in the Multicultural Programs. I was like, “This is a job?” Like, this is amazing! So, I was living the life as if I was already employed by the university and really took ownership and pride of being a peer educator… Um, but, of course I wanted to ensure that we all shared the, the workload. So, each of us had a specialization. Mine was LGBTQ specific, the four other peer educators focused on their areas. I just took a bit more ownership of like, making sure that… I, I wouldn't say I was a lead, but I just wanted to make sure that our, our projects were polished? And, when looking around at other student orgs and other peer educators on campus, I wanted to share all the resources, and the presentation of this is what Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center, this is the content we put Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 4 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 out. It's branded, it has a, a similar look and feel. It didn't look hodgepodge. Like, this was years ago before the advent of Canva. Everybody loves Canva right now because templates galore and it all looks professional. Back then we didn't have it. So, the peer educators basically came up with our own template that we said, okay, this is how we're, the conversation was like, how do we make it look professional and not student org, and not just disjointed from every event to the next event? There was some side sort of cohesion, a template that looked like when you looked at a, a flyer or a poster, you knew, oh, that's a Cross-Cultural Center event. Meyer: Hmm. What kind of support and programmings were, were offered for students that got involved with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] when the organization was still, you know, coming up when you were, when you were a peer educator. What kind of, like, outreach was taking place to the students? Franklin: Kinda outreach. Ooh, that's a good one. Uh, so the peer educators essentially were their own marketing machines. Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, each of our groups, we were leveraged, uh, to dip into our own communities— Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, when it came to marketing efforts and how do we reach the greater campus body-- I mean, there was, I wanna say 7,400 students on campus at that time? 74[00] to 8,000 students. So, by being already a student leader in the LGBTQ group, our and each of the peer educators being members of their own, identity group, student orgs, it really helped the marketing efforts target those communities. And it was cross-pollination essentially. Like, everybody-- we synced our events to ensure that we weren't overlapping anybody else's events, so that we could pull our communities to each one of them so we could be strategic in our marketing efforts. Meyer: How did the Cross-Cultural Center help you further develop that sense of community and help others find it? I know you've already touched on that a bit, but, um, yeah. Finding a community on campus-Franklin: How did it help me find a community? Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 5 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 Meyer: I mean, you, you already had, like you said, a community, but, how did-- how did you help bring other people into that in ways that they might not have been introduced to? Franklin: Perfect. Okay. Um, a good way of looking at it is ensuring that a lot of our events had food, because we knew that food draws students. So, one strategy was always going to the director of Student Life Leadership, was always asking for additional funds for <laughs> so we could buy pizza, hotdogs, to ensure our events had food, because we knew that food was the-- a driving motivator for students to attend anything. So, food was important. And then, money was another way of, of pulling in students that didn't leverage the Cross-Cultural Center or Student Life and Leadership was helping students-- like, we were doing workshops and helping students, obtain funding from-- the Cross-Cultural Center had funds, ASI [Associated Students Incorporated, student government] had funds, the Vice President of Student Affairs had funds, so there was like $500 pockets of money that you could apply for in fall or for spring, or for the entire academic year. So, we came up with workshops to help students apply for those programs, funding opportunities so that they could actually get money. So, we knew food was important and money was important. So, we held workshops, helped students actually like, oh, I've never applied for money before for student org. We're like, “don't worry, we can help you walk through this process.” So, food and money was one way to bring in students that never knew that the Cross-Cultural Center existed, or even Student Life and Leadership existed. Meyer: What is the overall significance, in your opinion, of having a space like that, that champions, uh, underrepresented students on campus and gives them a place to be themselves and hold space? Franklin: Yeah, it was, it was a family experience. For me, I, I really, uh, didn't, as I grew up military, so every two to three years would move around. So, I really didn't have this whole Asian, Filipino, identity experience. But hanging out in the center really helped me come, come to peace or come to terms with my halfFilipino, half-Asian background. And it helped me find space. And then by being comfortable, I guess others, seeing myself being authentic allowed them to just be themselves. Like, it was a really family experience in a sense that when you walked into the center-- I was looking at some of the pictures from back of the day. Some students just like took off their shoes. Like when you talk about a family or crosscultural experience, some at, when they go home, they take off their shoes before they enter their house. So, I thought it was the strangest and coolest thing. And, and looking back, I saw a picture where there was some students without their shoes on. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that.” So, I, it was a space for students to be themselves, and the more students that went into the Cross-Cultural Center to… it always felt like there was a party. Like, there was a sort of celebration in the center, like we packed the space and, and, and not just packing the space, it was always fun. And when we moved from Craven Hall, now the Administrative Building, it‘s that small little conference room that's as big as this space. We moved into the breezeway of the administrative building, and the door into the CrossCultural Center was in the breezeway where all the murals are at, at Cal State San Marcos. Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 6 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 So, whenever we were holding space and taking up space and having some dialogue, whenever the door was open, it echoed inside. I think it was like a strategic way of the director that time to put it in that space, because it was front and center. Everybody that walked through that hallway, the sound just increased because it was in a hallway-- a breezeway. And when people looked into the space and saw the fun you were having, it was-- the natural conversation was like, our question was like, “What's going on in there? And how could I join it?” So, it was always packed, it was always welcomed. The peer educators, as soon as somebody walked by, looked into the space, our, our goal was to engage with them immediately. So if you looked into the door of the Cross-Cultural Center, it was like, “Hi! Welcome into our space! We’ve got this and we've got that.” Just, it was always a welcoming and inclusive atmosphere, total family. Like if, if a student didn't know it was here, that meant they never visited Cougar Central or visited the Financial Aid Office. Like, in order to get to that, that office, that was one of the main thoroughfares at breezeway with the murals is where the party was happening. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like some of the activism efforts were just getting kids in the door so they could learn and, and, yeah-- enjoy, enjoy the space if they previously hadn't felt it on campus before. Can you recount in an instance when something you learned at the CCC, maybe it opened your eyes to something you hadn't thought about before, something just hadn't crossed your mind? Some-- um-maybe some issue you hadn't realized that underrepresented students were having on campus, that you just hadn't-Franklin: The, the food, the… definitely the food insecurity. <removing glasses> I'm, I'm not gonna be looking at my phone or a laptop. Food insecurity was a big one for me. As a non-traditional student, I didn't have that worry. I didn't have that concern. That was early conversations of like, “Where's our food pantry? Other campuses have food pantries, but not Cal State San Marcos.” So, for me, I thought that was really odd that here we are, we have a space for students, but we don't have, like, a food pantry to allow students to get access to it. So that was, goes back to my earlier response of like, have food and students will show up. So, knowing that students need food, and holding events to that had food was a major draw. But yeah, it was a big shocker to find out that food insecurity was a big deal back then. I mean, it still is now. There is a food pantry and there's food pantries all around. But, back then it was like, yeah, we know it's a problem, but that's so new and our campus is still growing, that we can only focus on this one space. And yes, the Cross-Cultural Center was one space, and there were other many spaces on campus, but because it was this Cross-Cultural Center and filled with-- the line back then was like first one in gets to own the space, so the Asian identified groups would pack the room and they're like, “This is the Asian Center!” And I'm like, “This is a Cross-Cultural Center.” Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 7 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 So, the conversation also started to get out where students were like, “Well, where's my center?” and “Where's my center?” and Pride Center of the-- like, LGBT community was like, “Where's our center?” And, it just started, “Where's the Women in Gender Equity Center?” So, because of the fun and the joy that was a party-like atmosphere, other, other students were like, “Uh, where's my space?” And, so, that was a bit jarring for a campus from my perspective to not have all spaces, but also no time and place-- like, the university was still pretty young. Like, campuses just don't pop up and have everything all at once. It has to be responsive to the community that evolves and grows there. And Cal State San Marcos has done that. Meyer: Right. Wait for the community to ask for what they need rather than just tell them what they need. Franklin: Yep. Meyer: What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these other centers? Franklin: I, it's-Meyer: It's a, it's a hard question, yeah-Franklin: Yeah. So, because they're all, all these different centers are very specific to an identity group. The CrossCultural Center is … I don't know if they would take the lead or, um, I don't know. It's a, it's a central hub that… and the first center that, it's been here. Just because it's been here the longest doesn't mean it has to stay that way. So, watching it evolve and grow, and how it collaborates with other centers has been really important. So, I don't know. I don't know if that answers your question. Meyer: Mm-hmm. No, it does. It does, yeah. Franklin: Once its role, its— Meyer: There's no right answer to the question. Yeah. Yeah. It's exactly… building off that, what direction do you think the CCC should grow in? What, what areas do you see room for improvement in students that could be better served, or maybe--- you know, yeah. Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 8 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 Franklin: Yeah. It's one of those, like… oh, it's almost like a innovation hub— Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And a business incubator. So, when you look at it from... I'm going, I'm gonna dip back into the marketing hat--- it starts off as an incubator group for students that want to form community, and, once that group has been given the energy and the resources that they need, and the-- the sense of, you can advocate for yourself and advocate…. and that advocation gets you, it doesn't get you a center, but it helps consolidate your voice so that you can move the students and empower the students to ask and request for space. So, yeah, I, I look at the Cross-Cultural Center as like a, a identity group incubation center. So, students leverage a space, become empowered, and then get what they need and go up to leadership or to student leadership— ASI--- and say, “Hey, look, where's our space? Why don't we have it X, Y, and Z? Like, we've been asking for it for this long.” Like, it's a, it's a great spot to start. Meyer: I understand you still work in--- of course, you work on Cal State San Marcos campus, and I just wanted to ask about what ways that your experience and your time with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] helped shape your outlook and your professional life? Franklin: Uh, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I wouldn't have known that student affairs was a job. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: And, yeah, so Cross-Cultural Center really impacted my career trajectory. I, I didn't know that this, I didn't--- when I went to Cal State San Marcos, I did not know that you could work in higher education. And I didn't know that was even a major. And, there's an entire master's degree around student affairs, and I'm like, this is cool. I myself didn't go that route because I was already a non-traditional student. I came with a skill set that I would've already learned in the student affairs master's program. I stayed at Cal State San Marcos, and I got a master's of education and just made it my own and focused on LGBTspecific stuff. But, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I would not have known that there's a student affairs professional career. I wouldn't have known to actually work in higher education. And then this whole concept of like, you're a state employee. Like, I didn't-- like when I originally said, “Oh, gosh, I'm about to be 30,” it's--- “I need to look for retirement!” I didn't know that working for the state of California, the retirement is, like, this unicorn that doesn't exist anymore. So, like, private businesses Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 9 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 don't even offer half of which you get as a state employee. And, and that comes with a, a rub as well, because when you're a new professional in, student affairs or just in in higher education, you have to, you have to put in your, your dues and start at the bottom and work your way up, learn the skillsets, apply for another job if you see one that better fits you grow within your role. But all of those things I would've never known about had it not been for the Cross-Cultural Center. So, for me, it really had a huge impact on my personal life and professional career as well. Meyer: I understand that you and a lot of the peer educators became really good friends, and I was just wondering if either with them or with other students at the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center], if there's any like, great memories of the retreats or any of the events that you wanted to share, or just talk about. Franklin: Ooh, great events. Facilitating All People's Celebration was always a, fun-- just because it was a culminating award ceremony to recognize other student leaders on campus for various social justice awards. That was really cool. A big one for me was, and I still see it today, is my first professional role in the Cross-Cultural Center. There was a gap in between my undergrad and my master's program. There was a, a, a gap in professional service. So basically, the director or the co-direct, uh, assistant director at the time of the Cross-Cultural Center had left, no longer worked for the university. And the director of, Student Life, the leadership said, “Hey, uh, because you're super engaged as a peer educator and you finally finished your undergrad, we could-- there's this emergency hire position that we could hire you for three months or six months, but it ends at six months.” There's, there's no, we're--- we just need you to hold the spot, keep the seat warm, and keep the processes and the function of the Cross-Cultural Center moving forward because you know all the peer educators and you've been in this role-- and a lot of the peer educators graduated and a new set came in. But the ones that had didn't graduate that were there, it was a really good opportunity for a good three to six months to be engaged in the student work where I evolved from student to young professional. And a big event that I had to do was create this mural, and I don't know how many panels it was, but it was maybe a hundred different pieces. And it was this giant picture, and it was divided into little one-foot-by-one-foot squares, or 12-inch-by-12-inch squares. And it made this huge mural and one giant design, but everybody got a one-foot-by-one-foot portion of it, and they got to paint it and add their own flare to the image. Because, once pulled back together, it would show a, a great--- it was like a kaleidoscope of all kinds of different perspectives, even though we knew it was one giant mural but everybody had their own little one-foot-by-one-foot square to add their own flavor and to add their own, this is Jay's square, or this was Stephanie’s square. It was really a fun experience, to do a mural that's still on campus. And I see it, while it might not be in the Cross-Cultural Center, I've watched this mural move from office, or Dean's conference room to Dean's conference room, and it's being used as backdrops for, for pictures around campus. So I think it's just so neat to see, being a part of the start, that it doesn't end, like, the… I've left my mark, or the peer educators have left their mark, and that, that thing, that mural is still being leveraged today. It's just pretty awesome. Meyer: That's really cool. So you were, you were basically an interim director? For a little while? Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 10 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 Franklin: I, I wouldn't say a director-Meyer: Program lead or something? Franklin: Coordinator. Meyer: Coordinator. Okay. Franklin: And yeah, I like to say, “Well, the director, the associate director left on the…” of course, no. Titles mean nothing. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: But it was-- I, I definitely enjoyed that first experience in Student Affairs. And once I got into Student Affairs and that six months ended, it coincided with me getting hired at Asher University. And… that is not student affairs, it was just transcript analysis. And then, coming back to Cal State San Marcos in fall of [20]09, working for Extended Learning, the self-support unit of the university, they don't receive any state funds. And it was ten-- a decade of my experience was in self-support. And then, when the pandemic hit, my skillset got repurposed, and off to Student Affairs I went, and now I'm back in Student Affairs. So it's like, really full circle again, like yeah. It's pretty wild. Meyer: Yeah. So, um, I know it's not related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but could you talk a little bit about directing Student Affairs during the pandemic? Franklin: Yeah. Uh, it was, I was basically supporting the director, the inaugural director of the Success Coaching Program and Office of Coaching Success. And, it was basically-- my skillset was leveraging a database to match 1500-plus students with-- I want to say-- eighteen success coaches? We’re a unionized environment, so, we had full-time staff, half-time staff and quarter-time staff. We had 1500 incoming first-year students that we needed to engage with and connect that student to Cal State San Marcos, even though we were in a virtual environment. So, leveraging technology appropriately. We sent text messages, of course, we called and sent emails, but as we know for sure, students or students in general don't read emails and they didn't know pick up calls from people that they don't know. So, sending Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 11 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 memes to students to get them engaged, and we knew what the life cycle was like, because there's only sixteen weeks in a semester and we knew of certain in intervals in the semester, students like need to fill out their financial aid, meet with an academic advisor, check in to see how you're doing, how are they engaging or finding a sense of community. So, it goes back to that community feeling. While it might not be a Cross-Cultural Center specific, engaging in with a student to help them find their, their sense of being, or their sense of place, or their sense of connection-- connecting to community was what we were able to do when the pandemic hit, helping the students find their place. Even though it was virtual. Meyer: It sounds like you've always been doing that. Yeah. It sounds like you've been doing that since the first day you set foot on campus, just helping other students find their place. That's really cool. Well, I just wanted to thank you so much for, for coming in and doing this interview and, yeah, that's all the questions I have for today. But, thank you! Franklin: That's awesome. Thank you for having me. Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 12 2023-05-01 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Franklin, Jay. Interview transcript. April 12, 2023. Description An account of the resource Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQ+ students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office. This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jay Franklin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-026 Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history LGBTQIA+ experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/35e9e4684adf94123fb801dc0efe5b35.pdf 4f2797a71fce1b3f3f8626ce7b872d70 PDF Text Text THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 1 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 2 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 3 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs; two, it was warm (laughs); and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 4 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 5 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 6 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents-my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I-and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 7 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—" it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 8 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like-and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 9 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 10 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 11 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 12 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 13 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 14 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 15 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 16 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 17 2022-05-11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ha, Thao. Interview transcript. April 14, 2022. Description An account of the resource Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thao Ha Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-14 Subject The topic of the resource Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam) Houston (Tex.) Saigon (Vietnam) San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">in copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thao Ha License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-21 Type The nature or genre of the resource text Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9173acfb4043d98a992ece390b686936.pdf 745685fd9a5c04a10e7e266af852c2c4 PDF Text Text ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Sean Visintainer: Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you for interviewing with us today. Anthony Jackson: Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say. Visintainer: These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: So I can circle back to questions if I have them. Jackson: All right. Visintainer: Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative years. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: Um, where were you born? Jackson: I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 1 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break. Visintainer: Yeah. <laughs>. Jackson: And dad came home in [19]52, and <laughs> Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh, [19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five boys, and I'm the top dead-center. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple weeks ago; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, <Visintainer coughs> spent the second grade in Los Angeles. Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And then back to Texas for the eighth <laughs>. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off <laughs> and didn't go to one single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 2 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship <laughs>, because I knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and, you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. <laughs> Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with patches and torn jeans and all that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That would've been so embarrassing for my family. <laughter> We were, we were poor, you know, <laughs> and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 3 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots. Visintainer: You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your childhood? Jackson: I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was inexpensive and filled with nutrition. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your plate. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back <laughs>. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you know, <laughs>. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 4 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty creative. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that would be the syrup for your pancakes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was worthy of eating. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Except turnips. <laughter> Visintainer: So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-Jackson: Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC [University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I said, what <laughs>, what am I supposed to do with this? Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 5 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that <laughs>, 'cause our meals were substantial. And [inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: As a kid more than anything. Yeah. Visintainer: Did, uh, did you live on bases? Jackson: Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base housing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base. Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base, but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a home in Oakland. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, <laughs> was either for my older brother, if it was small. And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the basement. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 6 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: In bunk beds, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when <laughs>, you know, so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways from-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on bases sometimes. Not always. Visintainer: Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society. Jackson: Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-Visintainer: Could you explain-Jackson: Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all in the same boat <laughs>. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns, like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 7 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um, everybody's employed, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and sit when the national anthem was being played <laughs>, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased. Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know <laughs>. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All right. Okay." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father? Jackson: No my dad, he lived a whole different world. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 8 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942, Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor. And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um, even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother <laughs>, you know, to be one of the hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24 years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 9 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank. Jackson: And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, <laughs>, I'll never forget what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first [Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony Jackson. Visintainer: Yeah. <Jackson laughs> Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And he had kept a house there for quite a while. Jackson: Right. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 10 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston? Jackson: You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that would've been grown-up talk back in those days. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools. Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house, everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal punishment, <laughs>. That's the first time I met that one too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my hand paddled because my writing was so poor <laughs>. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston] because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston. And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 11 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know. Visintainer: So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous? You were-Jackson: Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis, and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is <Jackson gestures>. And then she refused to move. And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus <laughs>, and he left her alone the rest of the ride. She never budged. Visintainer: That's very courageous. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took those words literally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 12 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship, wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's not an automatic. <laughs> I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll see how it goes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind of cool. Visintainer: Nice. Jackson: I'll show you at some point if you want to see it. Visintainer: Yeah, I'd love to. Jackson: Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 13 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock, a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense? Visintainer: Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about <Jackson laughs> weight and backpacks. Jackson: Yeah, right, yeah. <laughter>, I guess, so <laughs>. Visintainer: Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,? Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that. Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load. You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know, so keep it going." Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 14 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military <laughs> speak. Can't help it <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess I had a couple. What was the drugstore? Jackson: You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh, yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-Visintainer: Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents? Jackson: Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in Greenland. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 15 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said, "This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth grade, I moved to Oakland. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Which hardly <laugh>, is just that much better. <Jackson holds up fingers about an inch apart, laughs> But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm <laughs> seventy-three, you know, I'm a happy camper. <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: Exceeded expectations. <laughs>. Yeah. Visintainer: Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea and was he deployed in World War II? Jackson: He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 16 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in the family and he had gone to [Jackson makes chopping motion with hand] four. Different. High schools. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot, scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University, Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers, he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago, but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame. And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong <laughs>, you know, but I'm the only one that made it a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 17 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to be talking to the spouses. <laughs> Visintainer: Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising children? Or were they more informal in nature? Jackson: They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have a spouse they’d have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there? Okay. <laughs> And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so, and I would willingly <laughs> pay for it out of my pocket too. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 18 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible] soldier, sailor, marine. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You're taking care of the family too. Visintainer: It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah. Jackson: All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor, that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no, there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you know? So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It does equate the combat power. Visintainer: I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 19 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish. Visintainer: Yeah. Okay. Um, <Visintainer coughs> excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I, so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-Jackson: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of activities they undertook, and as a support-Jackson: I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in case of, you know, <laughs>, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you know, the car broke down <laughs> the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the spouse that needs help when-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh, East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the people that were left behind. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So yeah, Visintainer: That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 20 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah. Visintainer: <Visintainer coughs> Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: You were working and-Jackson: Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while, at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And, um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, <Jackson makes "I don't know" expression> mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed <laughs> gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! <laughter> So there we were, you know, and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study. My grades shot up <raises hand, laughs>, which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics] major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, <laughs> kind of, every Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said, "Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 21 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real happy. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly. Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier... And, uh <laughs>. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months, I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd gotten-- we were wanting to date. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her. Visintainer: Yeah. Wow. Jackson: We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground. And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way, not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970, "Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" <laughs> I had no idea when <laughs>. I said, "semester break!" <laughs>. Jackson: It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 22 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: <laughs>. That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue." And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and engagement ring." He says, “Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store." <laughs>. So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through <Visintainer laughs>, through grad school, paid for those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or something, but she just told me that. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 23 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree, started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class -- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop." <laughs>, "I gotta, I gotta get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley. I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several jobs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company, and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 24 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame <Jackson holds hands in front of self and widens them>, kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: "US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told her <laughs>. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want me in my house tonight," <laughter>, "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with Kaiser Aluminum & Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for that reserve weekend. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 25 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point. Visintainer: Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea? Jackson: Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid marriage. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer. He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor, not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, <laughs> her sister got it all when he passed away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough <laughs>. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 26 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman something <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. <laughter> But that means certainly you have to be a person of strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior guy that has to execute the plan. Visintainer: And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that judgment, you're very invested in it. Jackson: Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be the presenter, you know? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 27 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah. But you're, you're the communicator." <laughs> "You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?" "Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the most articulate, you're presenting it! <laughs> Just make sure you win!" <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know, you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's not <laughs>, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of the process. <laughs> I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a lot too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I already knew how to make a military bed, <laughs> you know, to inspection standards. <laughs> We did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 28 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 <laughter>. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Boys lined up <laughs>. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-Visintainer: Congratulations. Jackson: Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we, we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have absolutely nothing in common. <laughs> You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore. You know, not quite, but <laughs>, you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities. Jackson: Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And, uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. <laughter> So, yeah. But, uh, Visintainer: Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit towards the end of your military career. Jackson: Okay. Visintainer: And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine Corps, Installations West. Jackson: Right. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 29 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right? Jackson: This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So, which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General [John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.] Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need. You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters. You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it? And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't, they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride," okay sort of challenge you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts <laughs>, you know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 30 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more? Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-Visintainer: What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time? Jackson: Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks that hard. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. <laughs> Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put 'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it. Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 31 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles. So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible] explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together. Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you [inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it. Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference] because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument, but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started buying these vehicles. I mean <laughs>, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch in. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 32 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart, Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, <holds arms wide> it's brand new! There's nothing there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his [Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which, you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United States. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around, meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa, off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd filter it into Somalia. Visintainer: So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 33 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen, but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy, these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. ButVisintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. <shakes head> No way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-Visintainer: When was this? Jackson: This was 2008. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama. So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of 2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie outta this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to-- Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 34 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence 'cause these things are time sensitive, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates. Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it. So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and death decisions. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment." You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a command and all of the, I mean, <laughs> bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me, you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early, you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to go back to Baghdad. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 35 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer, more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative. So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002, my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to one school." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this <holds hands out, palms up>. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said, "Great! <Visintainer laughs>. Then I got ordered overseas <laughs> and left her to build a house. And so I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and then be the last man to <laughs> to, to, arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one <laughs>, you might run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You know, <laughs>, it's random. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 36 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really lived together. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country. Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents. Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton, and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California] was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to build that stuff. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 37 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact. Visintainer: So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice. Jackson: Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-Visintainer: But in some ways it works out really nicely. Jackson: Yeah! Visintainer: To be around family-Jackson: Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This was a stinky old chicken farm. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 38 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Mm-hmm. Jackson: And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program, ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at first, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but, um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know, sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then <laughs>, you know, so why work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said, okay. Man. Was that? <makes gesture like casting a fishing rod> I mean, she hooked me for, she had me set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself, you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing. And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office. You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 39 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen, thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. <Jackson's phone rings>. Visintainer: If you want, I can pause this. Jackson: I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-Jackson: Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed. We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're basically working for nothing. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30 years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at 95, 97%, something like that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, you're, you are working because you love what you do. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 40 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime Academy. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps. And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, <laughs> rather impassioned speeches about why we go to war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and, uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. <laughs> So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West, you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor [Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama. And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 41 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius <laughs>. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put in solar at our house. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that. This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know, and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. <Visintainer laughs> I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh, and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-Border Fields State Park right there at the fence. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 42 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 "Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of panic. <Visintainer coughs>. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours <laughs>. So that was great. I, I did enjoy that. I did not want a new career though. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a political appointee of the governor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers. Visintainer: Yeah. How was it frightening? Jackson: Uh, say your question again? Visintainer: How was it frightening? Jackson: Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks, really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too, you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 43 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But you didn't have that ultimate special trust <laughs>, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it. Visintainer: And at some point-Jackson: I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities. Visintainer: Sure. Jackson: That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting back and forth. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 44 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know <laughter>. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together, that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer. Visintainer: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Jackson: Mm-hmm. So. Visintainer: I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't? Jackson: Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty, pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here <waves hand in circular motion> and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 45 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are unmatched in the world. So you have the finest <waves hand in circular motion>, this geographic area, just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-Visintainer: Eminent domain? Jackson: Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family, and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California. Visintainer: Wow. <Jackson laughs>, that's significant <Jackson laughs>. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they pay taxes too <laughs>. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. <laughs> The old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 46 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I, and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system. If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base, north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still wouldn't have worn a uniform <laughs>. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when you're in there. You know, you're <makes gesture indicating slim>, you know. I think I've grown a little bit rotund since those days, right. <laughs> Gently so <laughter>. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 47 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley and all that, but that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because it, it's like you're dishonoring-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You want me to deny I am a general. Visintainer: That's a huge part of your, your existence-Jackson: When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what, gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star, three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant General. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting, well, let me show you one thing here. <laughs> I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but she's my smartest counselor. <Visintainer laughs>. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family albums, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 48 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-Visintainer: Can I [inaudible]? <Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap>. Jackson: She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your family-Visintainer: Uh-huh. Jackson: Resilience, <laughs> you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go through and then she's found, it's kind of hard; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents were deceased <laughs>. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that, and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad <laughter>? Visintainer: No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter. Jackson: But he never lifted weights. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why. And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 49 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And this is <laughs>. And this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what <laughs> got us back together. But my family goes back to the original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party. And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-greatgreat grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my greatgreat-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each generation is a woman, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother, <points> her; my mother, her; my sister, her right there; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter. Visintainer: Wow. <laughter>. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 50 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls. Visintainer: That's amazing. Jackson: And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he changed his name to George Stevens. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: <laughs> It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge. And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there. Visintainer: I've never been. Jackson: And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee, the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest living. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious. And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is kind of cool. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 51 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past, they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength. Visintainer: Yes. Jackson: You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Are we over time? Visintainer: Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. <Jackson laughs> We've talked for a while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more questions for you, but-Jackson: That's all right. Visintainer: We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-Jackson: That's okay. It was fun to talk. Visintainer: It is a real pleasure to have you-Jackson: Be hoarse the rest of the day. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 52 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. <Jackson laughs> It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-Jackson: Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: There were no real flashbacks, you know? Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: It can happen though. Every now and then, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Oh man. Visintainer: Well, thank you again. Jackson: Okay. Hopefully that was-Visintainer: I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 53 2023-06-08 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jackson, Anthony. Interview transcript. March 7, 2023. Description An account of the resource Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors. In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson finishes his interview discussing his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony Jackson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-07 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Civil rights demonstrations Iraq War, 2003-2011 Military families Mormon Church Piracy -- Indian Ocean Racism United States. Africa Command. United States. Marine Corps Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) 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Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-32 Activists and activism Black experience Community history Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/747be3f849be63b46622662e44e0c283.pdf ce24c0a94044cfa6a84ec48e5febe6f4 PDF Text Text Transcript Tanis Brown: Okay. So, today is February 2nd, 2023, and this is a part of the North County Oral History Initiative. My name is Tanis Brown, and today I will be interviewing Sharon Jenkins. So, hi Sharon. Thanks very much for coming in today. You and I have been friends for a long time, but there are some things about you that I don’t really know. So, I’d like to find out a little bit more about your San Marcos story. Sharon Jenkins: Right. Thanks for having me, Tanis. This—I’m excited you’re doing this. Brown: Good. Well, I’d like to start from the beginning. Where were you born, Sharon? Jenkins: I was born in Quincy, Massachusetts— Brown: Oh my gosh. Jenkins: —and I moved from Quincy when I was very young. I don’t even know how young, less than five. And I moved to Scituate, Massachusetts. And I lived there until 1971, when we moved to San Marcos. Brown: Okay. So, you came to San Marcos in 1971, and would you still have been going to school at that time? Jenkins: So, yes. I started San Marcos High School in 1971 as a freshman. Brown: Okay. And the school was just ten years old at that time, so— Jenkins: Yes. Brown: —it was a new school. Jenkins: Yes, very small. Brown: How many students in the–in the graduating class, Sharon? Jenkins: So, I don’t remember the number. I would guess maybe less than two hundred. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: I know when we graduated, we could sit on the visitor’s side of the bleachers in the old gym. Brown: (chuckles) Jenkins: So, that’s how small we were. Brown: Okay. Did you have a football team and everything, and— Jenkins: We had a football team, yes, yes. Brown: All right. So, any changes between the east coast and coming to the west coast? Jenkins: I think I was so young that I probably didn’t understand what those changes were. �Brown: Okay. Jenkins: Um, I remembered it–I remembered feeling like it was very, um, —things were very scattered here, and–and not very busy. Brown: Oh, compared to the east coast. Jenkins: Right, right. Brown: Interesting. Um, so other than changing coasts, do you have any other childhood memories that stick out in your mind that maybe you carry forward today, or any traits about yourself? Jenkins: I would say, as far as high school and that era, um, making–making friends that some of them I still have as friends today. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: San Marcos was very small back then. So, um, there was a lot of people connected and, even though we’re much larger today, a lot of those connections are still in place. When I moved here there were, I believe, less than 10,000 people in San Marcos. Brown: Wow. That’s so cool. And you actually moved to Lake San Marcos when you first came here? Jenkins: Yes, I did. I moved to Lake San Marcos. Um, that’s where my parents purchased a house. And my dad was a pilot and commuted to L.A. when he needed to fly. And, um, he decided on Lake San Marcos because he felt that it was such a great, safe community. And he had a friend in Escondido who told him that San Marcos had a new high school and had a very good reputation. So, that’s another reason why he–he picked San Marcos. Brown: Okay. Oh, that’s interesting. So, Lake San Marcos was kind of an entity unto itself when it was first constructed and was highly touted as a–a kind of upscale community. Did you–did you notice any of that growing up in terms of–of students or residents of San Marcos? Did you always feel yourself a part of the community of San Marcos? Jenkins: Yes, always. So, when I moved there, as I look back, I think there were less than five children living in Lake San Marcos, because it was a retirement community back then. And most of the homes that are there today were not there. It was m–majority was empty lots that homes hadn’t been constructed yet— Brown: Okay Jenkins: —um, along the streets. (nods her head) Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So, I think the big thing I noticed, um, was very few—in fact, I don’t eve–I think I only knew one or two—other kids that lived there, but always felt it was a part of San Marcos to me. (nods her head again) �Brown: Okay. That’s great. Okay. So, just in terms of the overall community of San Marcos back in 1971 and during your high school years, wha–what were the big deals? What was–what was the city like at that time for you growing up? Jenkins: Um, I was—since I was new to the community—I didn’t have some of the connections that many of the other kids had that had been through school from however young. Um, so I think some of the connections were um, um, you know, as you made friends, hanging out with those friends, I remember a teacher encouraged my mom, “Get her involved in something.” And I think I was on the tennis team for a year. (chuckles) Um, never play tennis. But the whole thing was, you know, the staff at that time was to get kids involved in–in things. Um, Friday night football was a big deal back then and um, um, just hanging out with whatever friends you had. Brown: Mm-hmm. So, in the community, though, did your parents get involved in the community? Were they involved in Kiwanis and Rotary and that kind of thing? Jenkins: No. Brown: Were those organizations available at that time, or— Jenkins: I don’t know. I s–assume so. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: No. They were involved in playing golf. (laughs) Brown: Okay. Okay. And that was a big thing in Lake San Marcos— Jenkins: Yes! Brown: —to play golf. They had, what, an executive course? Jenkins: I don’t think they had the executive course then. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: But they did have the big course, and I’m sure that was one of the reasons why my dad selected there, too, because they both played golf. Brown: All right. Jenkins: And I played golf too. My dad taught me–started to teach me, um, when I was about nine. And, um–and so I would go out and play. There was a couple of people–a couple kids at that time, and another gal and I would go out and play periodically. Brown: Okay. So, today San Marcos is fairly well-known for its colleges. We have Palomar Community College and Cal State San Marcos. After graduating from high school, did–did you—you might not of even had those opportunities, although Palomar, I think, was here at that point in time. Where–what did you do after high school, after graduating from high school? Jenkins: So, I graduated from high school and went to Palomar College because it had such a great reputation back then as it does now. I went to Palomar, and then, um, transferred to San Diego State. But it was right around the time—actually, I think that I was going on campus to �San Diego, and then as I got closer to finishing—it took me much longer than two years, because I worked. But, as I got closer to finishing, they started to have some remote classes in North County, and I think a couple of classes I went to—one was in the–a middle school in Vista, on a Saturday, I think, and another one was in, um, a business class from an—off of Furniture Row. So, San Diego—so, Cal State San Marcos wasn’t here, but they had started to expand some opportunities for the No–North County kids. So, it wasn’t a lot of classes, but it was just enough that you could take a couple and not have to commute to San Diego. Brown: All right. Great. So, you finished up at–at San Diego State, and did you have a vocation or an avocation in mind, um, while you were going to college? Jenkins: Business. Brown: Business. Jenkins: Yes. I focused on business administration and accounting at the time. Brown: Okay. And you said you were–you worked your way through college? You were working while you were going to college. Jenkins: I worked while I went to college. I ended up, um—after I left Palomar—I always worked part-time. After I left Palomar, I think I might have started to work full-time and then I took classes at night, and would commute down to San Diego State at night, a couple of nights a week. Brown: Oh. So, you had a busy life, even back then. Jenkins: Yes. Brown: (laughs) Wow, that’s great. So, commuting to school—what was driving to San Diego State from San Marcos like? What–how–what was the timeframe? Jenkins: So, I always thought it was a good, um, a good travel time if I could do it in about thirty minutes. (both of them chuckle) Most of the time it was more than that. But it depended, you know. If it was a class that ended at nine o’clock, then you could pretty much get home within thirty minutes or so. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: But there definitely were times of the day when it was more difficult to get there, even back then! That would have been in the, um, let’s see, probably the late seventies. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So. And the freeways weren’t as big as they are today. Brown: Right. Jenkins: But we didn’t have as many cars back then. Brown: Okay. So, then after graduation did you look for employment in, locally, or interested in going someplace else? �Jenkins: So, while I was in high school, my first job during high school after my sophomore year was working at Taco Bell in Escondido. And then–um, and then I started my junior year and then I was an aide for one of the high school counselors and he had a neighbor who had a business in Escondido. And he said, “Sharon, you–this–my neighbor is looking for some work. Why don’t you go see if they could–if, you know–apply for a job there.” And that was the summer after my junior year. So, I worked the summer after my junior year at the company, and then when my senior year started, I was only going half-day. And so, I would go to high school in the morning, and then I would go work in the afternoon. And then I graduated mid-year my senior year. So, I was able to start Palomar and I still worked part-time for the company. And then, while I was going to Palomar, I just continued to work part-time and plan my classes accordingly. So, when I finished college, I conti–started full-time with the company. In fact, I probably started full-time before a graduated from college and finished college at night. I think that’s how it went. Brown: Wow. So, you were a working woman early on. Jenkins: Very early. Brown: Yeah. And did you stay in the accounting field for a long time? Jenkins: Yes. Most of my work there was office type work, accounting related work. And then I worked there for about ten years, and then I applied for, while I was in college, I applied for a internship, I guess you will, at IBM in San Diego. And so, I was hired to work part-time. I don’t know what it was called exactly, but similar to a internship. And then I worked a year doing that. And then–and then after that year, I started full-time there and I stayed there, um, for probably early 90s. And then–and then I quit so I could stay home with my kids. Brown: All right. Wow. Okay. So, when I first met you, you were involved in real estate. How did that transition happen? Jenkins: So, I think we actually met earlier than that, when Allan and I were on the school board together. Brown: Oh, okay. Jenkins: Okay? Um, and, um, so I–I stayed home with my kids. Did different part-time things. Volunteered a lot in the schools. That’s how I met Allan and eventually you. And then as my la– my second daughter was about to graduate from high school, I thought well what am I going to do now? And so then a friend said, “Why don’t you think about becoming a realtor?” And I never gave it a thought. But, I said, “Okay, well, I’ll check into that.” And so, I did that and it– it’s a way to help people which is what I like to do. And so, it has worked out well. So, I’ve been doing that for, mm, probably close to seventeen years. Brown: All right. That’s great. Well, you segued right into the kind of second theme of my interview questions and that is your very long career in local government, starting with the school district. And so, my question to you about that is, um, you know, what–what–what inspired you to get involved beyond the local parent organization in the school district here in San Marcos? �Jenkins: So, I think being involved in–in the local parent groups actually was my segue into the next part. Because I was involved in different parent organizations. I was involved in the 1996 School Board Bond effort. I co-chaired that with two other people. And then after that, once you volunteer for something, as Dennis well knows, (they both chuckle) you are encouraged to volunteer for more. And one day somebody caught me in one of the school parking lots and said, “Have you ever running for the school board?” which I said, “I’ve—No.” And then, so then finally in 1998, Lucy Gross who was a school board member for a long time which even Allan knew well, was leaving the board and she–and she also approached me and said, “You know, you should think about this because of the involvement with the schools.” And so–so I was on the school board from 1998 until 2012. Brown: Wow. So, during that time, how much did the school district change in those years? Jenkins: I would say dramatically, more so towards the last half than the beginning. But San Marcos was growing considerably then. I want to say, when I first started, there might have been—I don’t know—maybe eight, maybe ten thousand students. I’d have to go back and look at that. And now there are cl–close to, you know, approximately twenty [thousand]. So, it was a very growth intensified time, a lot of schools being built, always financial troubles from–due to state funding. But somehow, we got it all done. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And I think during the last, um–you know, during the last five years or so, my term there is just, I think, when dramatic things change. It was always interesting. I was told, and I–I didn’t realize this until–until later, but I was told that, um, at different times of an organization, there’s different priorities. And sometimes it’s a–it’s a school building cycle. Sometimes it’s a curriculum cycle that you’re working to overcome. Sometimes it’s a financial cycle that you’re working to overcome. And, um, and so as I look back, I realize when I first got on, it was a growth cycle. So, it was building. And then later it became more curriculum focused cycle. All– always–always focused on curriculum, but you–you pick and choose things to make things happen sooner than later. And so, looking back, I–I–I now see what that very intelligent person meant. Brown: So, what was your favorite thing about—or a couple of your favorite things—about being in a leadership position for a school district? Jenkins: I would say my colleagues on the school board and staff. I think—you know, we’re supposed to have the vision at a–at a high level, figure out what those goals are. And then it’s the staff that makes it happen. And I think San Marcos—both on a school district and city-wide too—has always had great staff. I think we were lucky. And we had school board members that kept their focus on the kids and what was best for the kids. We couldn’t always get there as quickly as we wanted, but eventually we would get there. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: I think also the staff and the–the other electeds, but also, um, some of the things that I–I find the most memorable to me are buildings, seeing the new schools open. High school graduations are always great because, you know, it’s a huge success for the kids and the–and the �staff, to get them to where they were that day. And also, I think the–the two school bonds that we worked on over the years. Those were—that brought such change to the community, both of those. And–and as an elected official, sometimes it’s difficult when you have to make really difficult decisions. But it’s also gratifying when you–when you realize, okay, I made the right decision. It's difficult, but I made the right decision. Brown: And you come out on the–on the other end of it feeling really positive. Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brown: Yeah. That’s good. So, from the school board, then you put your name in to be a city council representative and that comes with a whole ‘nother group of–of learning curves and–and, uh, opportunities and challenges. So, any differences between the s–what you were dealing with on the school board versus the city council? Jenkins: I would say, um, a couple differences. The–the school district had, probably when I started, maybe, I don’t know, maybe not even a thousand employees and less than ten schools. Whereas I think the school district is more complex with a lot of the issues they have to deal with. I think the city is–just has a smaller scale to it. And the needs are—you’re looking at different needs than what the school district is looking at. You know, we have, say, two hundred and some employees and many facilities. But those facilities are, in my mind, are less complicated than a school facility. Brown: Oh. Interesting. Wow. So, what was the first year you were elected to the city council? Jenkins: 2012. Brown: So, 2012. So, there was no break between the school district and moving right into city council. Jenkins: No. I was mid-term— Brown: Okay. Jenkins: —in 2012. So, I had two years into my four-year term. And there was a sitting councilmember who wasn’t running. And so, again, I had a–a couple people approach me and say, “You know, you should think about this.” And I said, “I know nothing about any of that.” I said, “I haven’t been on the planning commission. How do I learn all that.” (both of them chuckle) And so about maybe–maybe about a year, maybe s–not quite six months before the election, I started to talk to as many people as I could to see, you know, what their thoughts were. We, at that point, had lost redevelopment money to the state. The state clawed back, I think it was twenty-some million dollars of redevelopment money, and I had a couple people say, “Why would you even want to go into that because, you know, there’s a huge situation going on here.” But I just decided that, after talking to a number of people, that I felt I had good support, and I thought, you know, I can–I can learn this. I can do this. I had a lot of people that said, you know, “Come back and talk to me whenever you need to.” And so, I did it. Brown: Yeah. Were the–was the campaigning different between the school board and the city council? �Jenkins: Um, not–not drastically back then. To me it was citywide and to me the school board at that point in time was also citywide. So, I had–I think I had some name recognition with the parents and then because of being involved in different things in the district, then that–I think that gave me a leg up. Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay. Jenkins: So, it’s about—yeah, I would say, at that point in time, it was about the same. Brown: Okay. So, another continuing growth effort in our city over the time that you have been serving on the city council. So, I’d like to ask you—in that time that you’ve been on which is like ten years going on a few more years—so, um, looking back on that last ten years, what are you—I mean—wha–what do you see as the most value that–that the city council and you, yourself, have been involved in for the–for the community? Jenkins: Um, I would say doing our best to listen to all residents. We can’t always do what residents want us to do. That can be a little frustrating because they don’t realize–al–some of what we do is out of our control. We really push for local control here in San Marcos so that we make our own decisions. But more and more state, mainly, and federal is–is telling us we have to do things differently. Or we have to adhere to certain things. And, you know, sometimes we may feel like that’s not the best thing for our community, but we don’t have a choice. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Or we’d be sued. Brown: So, if you had a magic wand today, is there anything in San Marcos that you would change or–or improve that would make a huge difference or, uh, for our future? Jenkins: I can’t think of anything right now off the top of my head. Um, I would like to see us, um—traffic is always a big concern in San Marcos. So, I would say we have continuing efforts to work on that. It’s not necessarily all about expanding roads. Some of it’s infrastructure and– and–and other things. So, I would say, um, just trying to keep working through what we can in that area and we’re working on it. We’re spending lots of money on it. I can’t think of anything particular. We’re–I’m excited to have the bridges done in a few months. That has been something that was talked about long before I got on the council. So, I think that would be a–a big plus to the community to get that traffic flow. Brown: That’s great. So, Sharon, I would like to kind of conclude this interview with giving you an opportunity to just—if there’s anything we haven’t covered. I–I do have one more question that I kind of have been thinking about in terms of my— Knowing you for so many years, one of the things that I appreciate so much about you is your continually willingness and outreach to all the people that you’ve known for so long, which is, I’m sure, a growing number every year. How do you–how do you continue to keep in contact with this growing number of friends and colleagues that you have grown over the course of your time here in San Marcos? Jenkins: Um, let’s see. I don’t know. How do any of us do that? I think you just make an effort to–to get together with people and have meet-ups and, um, see them at different events. I try to, when things are going on within the city, I try to email people that I know would have an interest �in that. And almost always I get emails back saying, “Wow. You know, we really appreciate that, because we don’t–we don’t have access to that. And so, we’re glad to hear about something.” Just, you know, again just doing your best to try to reach out to people. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And–and see them when you can. Brown: Uh-huh. Well, I certainly think that makes you a very effective leader in our community in terms of keeping in t–touch with the way people feel. And I appreciate it. Jenkins: Thank you. I think another thing that’s important too is, um, as things have changed in the recent years, I think it is important for–for future councils and–and to understand that even though we’re in voting districts, I think it’s important that we represent all of San Marcos. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Um, I’m in a particular district but I reach out to people in other districts all the time. Listening is the best thing we can do. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And responding to questions. Brown: Yeah. So, in closing, is there anything else you’d like to share with us that we haven’t covered today, but you’d like our audience to hear. Jenkins: Let’s see. I would say that I’m just very pleased that I’ve been able to live in one town for so long. Growing up I, you know, you always think, “Oh, I just want to get out of here.” But I’m glad that I’ve–I’ve been here as long as I have. I’m glad my daughters—one lives here. Her– her two children are going to San Marcos schools. In fact, one of them is going to Discovery Elementary and I was one of the founding PTO board members of that. So, that’s kind of fun to go back and see that school. And then my other daughter’s nearby in San Diego. So, I think being able to see them enjoy what’s going on here in North County—that, things that, you know, I enjoyed growing up. And they’re now realizing that–that it’s a good place. Brown: Absolutely. Jenkins: Yeah. Brown: All right. Jenkins: Thank you for having me. Brown: Well, thank you very much for your time today and this concludes our interview for the North County Oral History Initiative. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jenkins, Sharon. Interview transcript. February 2, 2023 Description An account of the resource Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sharon Jenkins Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tanis Brown Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-02 Subject The topic of the resource Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos Public administration -- California -- San Marcos School boards -- California -- San Marcos Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-033 Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/077ed05bf3a5fde17082d0253ae4443f.pdf 43177e3c473df256fea7700642f6432e PDF Text Text REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 Sean Visintainer: Okay. This is Sean Visintainer and I’m here today with Mayor Rebecca Jones of San Marcos, California, doing an oral history interview for the Oral History Special Collections Project at Cal State San Marcos. Today is April 12th. We’re doing the interview in the University library. Mayor Jones, thank you so much for joining us today. Mayor Rebecca Jones: Oh, it’s my pleasure. SV: I wanted to start off just by asking you some questions about local government. And I think that it’s something that maybe is a little, at times, opaque to people. And so, I was just curious because local government can look really different depending upon the municipality. For people that are going to watch this video, researchers in the future, could you describe a little bit about how local government in San Marcos happens? RJ: Well, it used to be the great mystery. So, when I actually got involved with the city, I had no idea how local government worked. So, I tried to remember and put myself from that perspective as being just a resident and making things easier. And so, what we do, essentially, is we spend taxpayer money— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —that is from different sources. Most of it is from sales tax. That’s actually where we have our largest amount of money to spend for the residents. But then we also have property tax. And most people don’t know this but out of all of the counties in the city, I believe we are the lowest city that has the smallest share of property tax. So, out of every dollar we get 7.2¢. So, if you look at just that in itself, it really is very important for us to figure out other ways to actually generate revenue. So, we are a charter city. And a charter city allows us to actually have property that we own which is owned by the residents of the city of San Marcos. And all of that revenue that we actually have coming in—so Creekside Marketplace would be an example of that as well as City Hall—but all of that money actually helps augment the very low sales tax that we have. SV: Okay. So, I assume then you have to be very fiscally responsible. RJ: Very fiscally responsible. And so, anyway, our job as a local government is to spend your money wisely; keep you safe which is, honestly, our number one concern in my opinion—it always has been—and then also making sure we have a good quality of life for people. And so, you know, during my time on the council, I always again, you know, try to remember as a resident what is important to our residents. And I actually—this is kind of crazy but when I am campaigning which, you know, I’ve won five elections now— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —when I’m out campaigning, I actually enjoy the part of knocking on a stranger’s door and knowing that I’m going to get some feedback that I might not ever get otherwise. And so, I think it’s really important for me to always remember that part of local government, who you’re serving, which is the residents of the city, but also keeping everyone safe whether you own a business, whether you live here, or whether you’re visiting here. We want to make sure that we have that as our highest priority and, you know, people can drive safely through our community, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 come and shop here. If they’re already passing through San Marcos, which a lot of people do, we want them to, you know, spend a little more money and enjoy themselves. So, just keeping all of that in perspective is always at the front of what I’m always thinking and part of what my leadership is and, you know, just having again a good quality of life where people love to visit, live here, and, you know, a good place to call home. SV: Mm-hmm. Can you speak a little bit to how the process of government works, the City Council, the other people that are involved, the Deputy Mayor, yourself? RJ: Yeah. So, essentially, there is a City Council Manager style government. So, you might hear about like a strong Mayor. It’s not that. There’s only one city in the entire county that has that and that’s the city of San Diego. But a Council Manager form of government, local government, means that there are five council people. We pretty much have the same authority. However, I can put anything on the agenda which I have done in the past. But also, you know, I work very closely with the City Manager. I don’t really have any extra authority. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: There’s a few little things but nothing major. And so, there are five of us that really have to look out for the best of what’s going on in the community. And we actually started districts back in 2018 and that actually changed things a bit, because that was the first time where we had councilmembers that were working specifically and being elected specifically in one area of the city. So, we have four districts and I’m at-large, so I’m elected by the entire city. And so, each one of us, you know, we have things that are important to us. We bring them forward. And then we try to get a consensus on them. My job is to make sure we’re all getting along— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —making sure that everyone’s voice is heard, and then also making sure that, you know, we always are remembering, even if you’re not representing technically District 1, for instance, that really District 2, 3, and 4 also matter. And, you know, we only have a certain amount of money, and we really need to make sure that we’re, you know, spending money where the greatest need is but also not just focusing on one part of the city. SV: Yeah. You spoke about consensus building, and I think that’s really interesting since it seems like a lot of decision making has to be shared decision making in San Marcos. How do you go about building consensus? RJ: Well, the biggest, most important thing, in my opinion, is not being political. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, once you bring political parties into it, you really just spoil everything, to be honest. And so, my job has always been as I’ve seen it is to be apolitical, for the most part. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And then also making sure that we are, you know, again spending money wisely and, you know, really addressing all of the needs and the wishes in the community. And making sure that Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 everyone feels that they’re part of the city is also good, you know. It’s doing well. It’s safe. It’s very important for everyone, like I said, to be safe. I think that has always been super important but even more now than ever because there are a lot of people that don’t feel safe. You know, our world has changed. Laws are not the same that they used to be. And so, it’s really important to make sure that, again, your funding, your fire department, and then also your sheriff deputies—we are a contract city, which let me speak to that for just one moment. SV: Sure. RJ: I’ve had a lot of people during, you know, the downturn in the economy and, you know, during a lot of political things that have happened, saying to me, “Should we have our own police force?” Well, we actually still are one of the cities that has the lowest crime rate in the entire county. And so, that’s an important thing. Are we—what is the need? What is the problem? And so, you know, starting our own department would be very expensive, probably $3-4 million dollars. And, if it’s not broken, why fix it? SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, we actually are very lucky that we have some great captains that have come in. We have them for about two or three years, max. But they always end up being the cream of the crop. They end up moving on and actually being maybe an under-Sheriff or, you know, an assistant Sheriff. And so, you know, we really have had some great, you know, leaders in our Sheriff department. But a lot of people like to come back to our city. They might come here as a young Deputy, move on, and then they like to come back because it is a good place. We do have an excellent relationship with them, with the City Council and the Sheriff Department. And so, I think that really is very telling that, again, back to “if it’s not broken, why try to fix it when you’re doing very well.” And that’s, you know, one of the things that I think you do need to always keep in mind is, when things are going well, pay attention to what actually is working. You don’t have to change everything just for the sake of changing it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But you also don’t need to have things that you look at and say, “Well, we’ve been doing it that way twenty years, the same way, and it doesn’t work.” That’s when you need to pay attention. So, anyway, I’m very happy with our sheriff deputies and then also our fire department too, because they really do bring a sense of wellbeing to our community. SV: Yeah. We had to call the fire department— RJ: Oh no! SV: —not too long ago. They responded very promptly. They— RJ: Good. SV: —were wonderful. RJ: Okay! Well, that’s good to know. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: So, we were very happy with how they did. RJ: Yeah. Good. SV: So, you talked about identifying change and maybe not needing change for the purpose of making change. RJ: Right. Yeah. That’s it in a nutshell. SV: I’m a little bit—I was curious how you identify need. So, it’s important to see what doesn’t need to be changed. But how do you go about recognizing where there is a need? RJ: Well, a lot of it has to do with feedback, to be honest. I mean, really, if you see something that maybe isn’t going as well as you had hoped, I mean a lot of it has to do with how people are feeling in the community. Do they feel like their voices are being heard? And their voice is being heard doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re getting everything that they want. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Sometimes, you have to say no. And, you know, that’s the big picture. We have nearly 100,000 people and we have—you know, that live here full-time, and we’ve got about 40,000 students that are coming in, that go to CSU, to Palomar College and all of our other higher learning institutions. It’s a lot of people. That’s really about 140,000 people that are, you know, coming into our city every day, whether they live here full-time or not. You know, you have to figure out how you serve them. So, again, you know, are you providing opportunities for them to actually enjoy themselves, have recreation. You know, we are actually known for our parks, which I think is really important at keeping people out and active. And, you know, during the pandemic for instance, many of the cities were closing their trails and their parks. We followed the health orders, but we kept our trails open, and we kept our parks, for the most part, open. We did close our climbing structures and that sort of thing. But we always felt that it was very important to keep people out and active and having those opportunities because mental wellbeing is important in a community. But then, also having opportunities for people to open businesses. And you know, one of the things that I’ve been talking about for years—and this year it is our first time; we’re actually calling it one of our goals— and that’s concierge service, that is the customer experience because the customers are the community. And then, also, the business owners, when they come into City Hall, do they feel welcomed? Do they feel like it’s easy for them? They get the support that they need to open a business. Or, if they’re making changes to their property or something like that, are we doing everything we can? And, again, do they have that concierge experience? And so, we’re doing a lot of different things. We actually are just launching something in the next couple of weeks that will help people understand more about conditional use permits and opening businesses and finding out where their dream can come true of opening a business in the city and where it’s actually available to already open pretty easily, or where it might take a little more work on their end. And so, you know, we just are trying to always make that experience a little bit better. And, you know, I’m really proud of all the work that we’ve done since I’ve been on the council. This is my 17th year on the city council. And so, it’s been a long time. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I remember when I first joined the council, I was the only woman at the time. And I remember saying “Well, you know it would be great if we had good customer service.” And at the time, that did not go over very well (Sean chuckles). There was this “Well, what is that all about?” And, you know, now if you look forward, you know, to where we are today and how important that is to us, we’ve changed a lot. And so, you know, again, changing things that you identify as having issues and it’s not just what I think. A lot of it really does have to do with getting feedback from our community. SV: Mm-hmm. How do you solicit feedback? RJ: Well, I try to make as many—myself—as available as possible. And, you know, we talked about this a little bit earlier about, you know, being available. This is a full-time job. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It could happen in a grocery store. It could be happening at the park. Wherever I am, I know that it is important for me to be available. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, Chamber of Commerce events. Really anywhere is a way. I have a very opendoor policy, emails, social media, even though I don’t love social media. It does offer a way for people to connect with me. And so, I think, again, that is really important. You know, and then my cell phone. I have it on my cards. I give it to everyone. I have a lot of people that just reach out to me and say, “You know what? I met you at this event. You gave me your card because I asked for it. I didn’t really feel comfortable discussing this with you. But here’s what I’m thinking.” And I think that is, in itself, being a mayor of the people. Being available is so important. And, again, you know back to the point that I made a little earlier as well, and that is being as apolitical as possible. I really do believe that that’s the best way that you can serve your community. Not making anyone feel left out and bringing everyone together and being that consensus builder is really important. So, I work very wholeheartedly and very diligently at doing that. SV: Yeah. So, you’re pretty much always on duty. RJ: I am. SV: Yeah. RJ: I am which, you know, makes it difficult. It is a hard job— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —to do, you know, pretty much all day every day. But, you know, I have to say I look around the city and I do have to pinch myself sometimes, thinking “You know, I was a part of that.” And “Oh, I was a part of that.” I mean, I really am proud of what our community has become. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, and we really have grown significantly. We are a college town. And then, you know, we’ve really done a good job, I think, at juggling following state mandates, making sure, again you know, our community is a good place to call home, also to do business in. You know, it really encompasses a lot of different things. But I’ve been very intentional about, you know, making the things that are important to our residents important to me as well. SV: Mm-hmm. Could you talk a little bit about how the city government functions within the larger context of, I guess, the county? RJ: Oh yeah. SV: You know, how the different municipalities interact and then how the county government as well, functions with the city. RJ: So, all mental health is handled through the county. That’s probably the biggest difference of the county and then cities. So, there are 18 cities plus the county. And then what we have is several different, you know, regional groups that we are, you know, part of. So, one being SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) which is mainly transportation. And then you’ve got also North County Transit which is for North County. And it’s our transit operator. And so, and then there’s like the water—we don’t actually have our own water department. So, Vallecitos Water District handles that. We are a little different than some cities. Like the city of Carlsbad, they also serve the water as well. But we don’t do that. You know, just really the biggest thing is when we’re on a board together, you have to wear a regional hat. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You have to figure out—because we don’t work independently as silos. We do work together. You know, when you look at transportation in itself, you know a lot of people drive cars, about 97% of the county, about only 2-3% honestly actually use transit. It’s not a system that actually runs often enough for it to be, you know, serving most people for their lives. Plus, a lot of people have lifestyles that really it doesn’t fit within their lifestyles. But then there are a lot of people—well, not a lot, but the people that do use public transit, they really do rely on it. So, we need to figure out how to serve everyone. And so, you know, is there a possibility of having a transit system that actually can attract more riders? I believe so. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But it also relies on people making that shift. We need to make sure it’s safe. There is a lot of people that believe that only people that are homeless ride on public transit. That’s not the case. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Though there are some. I’m not going to pretend that there isn’t. There definitely are. But how do we make it more meaningful and easier for people to use it? So, we do need a balanced transportation system like I said. And that’s not punishing car drivers and trying to force them out of their cars. It’s not going to happen. Many people, especially people I think with kids, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 really rely on that, you know, getting their kids where they need to go. And I, you know, my kids—I have, well, I’ll just give you an example. I had a soccer player and she played competitive soccer, my daughter. And then my son was a surfer. And so, two very, very different, you know, life sorts of things that they like to do. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, for me, I was always driving. I was always driving, you know, a big SUV because usually I was like “Hey, you know what? I’ll pick up your kids too.” So, you know, for practices and all of that for my daughter, I did a lot of carpooling. With my son, not so much because he wanted to go, you know, when he wanted to go. So, you know, I’d go and try to run errands while he was at the beach. And then I’d go back and pick him up. So, you know, a lot of different lifestyles have different needs. And, you know, so that’s one of the things that I always try to mention when I’m on that SANDAG committee. I’m on the Board of Directors as Mayor. And I try to say, “Remember. Let’s not forget about, you know, the parents. Let’s not forget about our retirees. We really do need a transportation program that fits everyone’s needs.” And it is tricky. But I think it can be done. But our new regional plan, I think that it really does punish car drivers in a lot of ways. And we really need to bring more transit, in my opinion, up to North County. And what I’ve been talking about for quite some time, and it actually will be rolling out pretty soon, is having micro-transit within cities because that is a way for you to actually get where you need to go within the city. It’s not going to take you to work or anything like that. But, you know, on your short trips, you know, getting for instance our kids to school because the school district has very little busing. They are starting to bring some of it back. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But that really is only for the elementary kids. So, you know, the older kids, the middleschoolers, the high schoolers, how do you get them to school in a meaningful way? And I think micro-transit is a way to do that. But it’s also a way for people like if you want to go out and have dinner, have that glass of wine. You don’t have to drink and drive! You don’t have to call an Uber. If you’ve got a system that actually is on demand, it will meet those needs. And I think it would serve our community better. So, I think having more conversations about, you know, different aspects of a transportation plan that fits really the needs of the community like microtransit and then also autonomous vehicles. They are the future more than I think fixed rail or fixed routes on buses. I think it really does lend better to peoples’ lifestyles. So, you know, keeping that in mind, that’s what we do at SANDAG. But then also at North County Transit. It’s all about the same things that I just mentioned about transit. But, you know, working with other cities it happens a lot. We also have something on the 78 corridor that is something that not the rest of the nation has. I think it’s one of a kind. And it is that cities work together. And so, Innovate 78 (multi-city partnership supporting business ecosystem along the Highway 78 corridor) started. And it was really about attracting business to the region. I call us the “upside” of San Diego because we’re North County. SV: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: We’re very close to Riverside and to Orange County. And, you know, we really have a different bit of lifestyle. A lot of people that really enjoy the urban living don’t really enjoy it as much in North County. But we also, you know, we have a lot of space for jobs and, you know, we also have a lot of homes. And so, a lot of people, you know, North County is a little more affordable. As you get east of the 5, it, you know, gets a little more affordable. East of the 15 is a little more affordable. But, you know, also trying to figure out how to balance, again, the transportation, getting people to work, and all of that is a consideration. But, you know, when you have large cities like Carlsbad where they have a lot of jobs, where are those people going to live? Well, a lot of them do live in San Marcos, for instance, or Vista. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, you know, Innovate 78 was all about trying to figure out how to attract businesses. If the city of Vista has a business or the city of San Marcos has a business within our city, we can’t find the proper amount of land for them because they want to grow. We work together and our Economic Development Directors work together to figure out where can we move them to stay in North County, so they don’t have to disrupt their workforce, so they don’t have to disrupt their lifestyles. How can we work together to make that happen? And it has been very successful. I’m very proud of the work that we’ve done. And, you know, it has been recognized that we have done some really good work together. SV: Yeah. So, is Innovate 78 like a—is it a formalized structure? Do you have meetings that happen on a regular basis? Or is it more of a—I don’t know exactly what I’m trying to ask you here. RJ: I know what you’re trying to—So, we don’t have—Okay. So, there are quarterly meetings where it’s the mayors, generally, but not always, and council members. So, they kind of cycle in. And then they’re hosted in all the different cities. That’s a quarterly thing. But our Economic Development Directors and staff work actually—they do have monthly meetings. So, they do work together on a very, very regular basis. And, you know, that, again—You know, we’re policy makers. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, it’s not imperative that we are there all the time, you know, at a monthly meeting or something like that. It is when it comes to transportation like SANDAG but not with Innovate 78. And again, you know, there’s a lot of work that has gotten done where, you know, businesses rather than them, you know, locate elsewhere like another county or something like that or, you know, maybe in South County, we’ve been able to keep and retain them here in North County which is a good thing. SV: Yeah. That is a good thing. RJ: Yeah. SV: You talked about micro-transit. I just wanted to clarify what that is in case it becomes available. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: Oh, micro-transit is like a small shuttle sort of bus. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Not a big full-sized bus but more of a smaller bus. And it would be—and what North County transit is going to be—Have you ever seen the Carlsbad Connector? SV: I haven’t. RJ: Okay. Well, it’s kind of a, it’s a smaller bus and it would be on demand. That will be rolling out in San Marcos. SV: Okay. RJ: Through North County Transit. SV: Okay. When will that roll out? RJ: Actually, sometime probably fall or early next year. SV: Very cool! RJ: Yeah. SV: I wanted to ask you a little bit about your journey into politics. RJ: Oh my gosh! Yes. Everyone says, “What made you— SV: Yeah! RJ: “—want to be in politics?” Well, I could tell you this much. I never did. (laughs) It’s one of those things that I just kind of fell into. And so, what ended up happening is I was a young mom, and really, I didn’t even know how local government worked. I didn’t know what city government handled. I didn’t know anything about anything. And there was a public notice in the park next to my home. And, you know, I had a baby at home and a four-year-old. And I was like “What’s going on? What is happening?” you know. And some of my neighbors were saying “Oh, we don’t want this in our park.” And I said, “Well, what’s even going on?” And then, as I started delving into it and I got more information and I actually figured out what was going on, I went “Yeah. I don’t like that for the park either. I’m not in love with that.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, it really was being involved. I sat down with all of the council members at the time and I had two council members, a Republican and a Democrat, say to me, “Rebecca, you should get involved in politics.” And I said, “I have you. Why would I do that?” And they said, “Well, we’re definitely not going to be doing it forever.” I think both of them were probably right around 20-25 or 24 years, you know, being involved in the city. And I was like “Why? Why won’t you do this forever?” And they said, “Well, you know, it’s a big job. However, when you really want to help shape the community, it’s a good thing.” SV: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: And so, I had both of them, you know, talk me into it. First they kind of “voluntold” me. And I actually first joined the San Marcos Creek District Task Force, originally. And I thought that was really interesting because I learned a lot about land use, a lot about, you know, just creating spaces where people could come and, you know, congregate, and really making a community a place where people can, you know, meet up with their friends and, you know, have those restaurants and those spaces that are, you know, beautiful and, you know, signature to the community, very unique. And I really liked that. And so, I was like “Okay. Well, I do like this.” And I have to tell you, my background is that I was a new home sales agent when I was in my early twenties. SV Mm-hmm. RJ: And then, my ex and I started a furniture marketing company which became very successful. We had customers. We started out with zero sales. We actually built that into a $100 million dollars a year in sales with Walmart, Costco, BestBuy as some of our customers. So, it was a pretty lucrative business. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But, you know, it was really hard. And I remember when he came home one day from work, he said, “You know, we’re going to start our own business.” And I went “We??” And, you know, at that time we only had one child and he was one. And he said, “Yes. You’re going to do all of the business part of it. And I’m just going to do the sales.” And I went “Oh. Okay.” And I go “You know, I don’t know how to work a computer.” And he said, “Nah, that’s okay. You’re smart. You could figure it out.” And that’s, you know, that’s really how it started. And so, I’ve always been kind of a, you know, very I would say involved person. If someone, you know, gives me a challenge or a task, I will go all in, and I’ll make sure I’ll do a good job. I’m very conscientious. And so, that really is how it started. Started out, you know, had that background of business in my, you know, my marriage and owning it. And then, I just went “Well, you know what? It’s time for me to give back. It’s time for me to be part of the solution rather than, you know, trying to stop things that are happening, you know as far as development goes.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, there were a couple of other things. The second Walmart, I didn’t agree with that. I didn’t think the placement was correct. And then there was the Robertson’s Ready-Mix batch plant over on Barham. And I said “Yeah. This is negative. I’d rather be positive.” I don’t like negativity, as you could probably tell. I’m a very positive person. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And you know what? I just knew that it was probably the right thing to do. And so, I ended up actually applying for an appointment because my ex had gotten sick in 2006. So, I wasn’t able to run a campaign that year. And I applied for the appointment in 2007. I was selected. And then I have run five campaigns since then and been elected five times. So, I must be doing something right. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Always been the top vote getter, even if it was for two seats and, you know, I would say that no one outworks me. No one immerses themselves more into trying to be involved and prepared. And so, I think that sets me apart because I really am not a politician. I’m just a person that loves the community and wants to give back and has found a way that I can do that. SV: And you said that you applied for the appointment for city council, if I’m understanding correctly. RJ: Correct. SV: So, what is that process like? RJ: Boy, was that fun. I’m just kidding. (both laugh) So, you filled out an application and then you talked about your experience and what you wanted to bring to the table. And at that time, it was an interesting time. So, Jim Desmond had just been elected as mayor. And, you know, it was—there were four men on the council. Pia Harris-Sebert was our first woman ever elected to the city council. And she was the first woman, but she was really the only woman for quite a while. We did have Betty Evans that, I think, served one or two terms in between. But she wasn’t on there. And so, it was really—there were four men left on the city council. And, you know, Jim Desmond was talking about diversity back then. And, you know, he said, you know, I like what Rebecca brings to the table, the business background, which is really important. And I think everyone should have at least some sort of background as far as how you spend money. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, it’s—you don’t have a ton of money to spend and, you know, really being able to figure out how to best spend that. You know, when you’re a business owner and especially when you’re starting out a business, you are pretty much trying to figure out how you’re not going to starve. And so, that really does bring an interesting perspective, I think, to the table. Anyway, and so, I was selected. There were 27 applicants. I got up to the podium and one of the council members actually had a lot of disagreements with me. He was supportive of the second Walmart. And, you know, he brought that up. He said “Well, you know, Walmart, they’re one of your customers. They must be very forgiving because you didn’t agree with the second Walmart.” And I said, “Well, you know, it doesn’t mean that I’m against Walmart. It just meant that I didn’t think the location was okay.” And those two things—you can still feel both things and believe in both things. It doesn’t mean that you don’t like Walmart. I mean, there are a lot of people in my community that love Walmart. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, whether I’m a Walmart shopper or not, a lot of people want to shop there. And so, you know, I think it’s really important that you have a good mix of businesses. And, you know, I think I brought that to the table. But I also, you know, brought forward the part of—I really cared about, you know, being able to represent everyone. And I think I’ve been—It has been a very valuable voice at that table. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 11 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Mm-hmm. So, there’s not an election process for city council? Or there wasn’t at that time? RJ: Not for an appointment. No, not for an appointment. SV: Oh, because Desmond— RJ: Because I’m in an appointment. SV: Okay. Gotcha. RJ: Yeah. So, right now, there is a supervisor seat that is going to be vacated. So, there would be an opportunity for either an appointment or a special election. At that time, a special election was gauged to be around $300,000. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It’s very expensive. If you can come up with an agreement on an appointment, it makes sense, if you can come to an agreement. But it doesn’t always happen. SV: Yeah. So— RJ: And, you know, a lot of people have been appointed and have not been able to get elected. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I think there were people that actually spoke against my appointment that when they saw what I did in my first two years, before I had my first election, they went “Wow. Okay.” And they’ve been some of my biggest supporters, to be honest. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, that does actually feel good because people do recognize how hard I work. It does feel good to have that recognized. SV: Yeah. So, then you ran for reelection then around 2009 or so? RJ: 2008— SV: 2008. RJ: —then ’12, and then ’16. I was elected as a woman’s—or as a first woman mayor in our city— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —to ever serve as mayor in 2018. And then, I was reelected last year, in 2022. SV: So, what does an election look like from your perspective when you’ve decided—let’s take your first time that you’re going after your appointment when you’re going to be reelected or elected to the city council? RJ: Oh, boy. It’s a lot of fun. So, first of all, you know, you need to raise money. So, do people believe in you? Because they’re not going to definitely, you know, donate to your campaign if Transcribed by Melissa Martin 12 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 they don’t believe in you. So, the good thing is I did have a record and I was able to point back to that. But not only was I able to point back to that, I was able to point back to the success in my business, how hard I’d worked, and all of those things. And, you know, it’s really important, I think, that you do connect to the community because at the end of the day you can raise all the money in the world but if you don’t have the votes, it’s really irrelevant. And so, can you get— And, you know, every single time—and I’ve run five elections—I’ve thought, “Oh my gosh. I’m losing. I’m losing!” (throws her head back and laughs) I’ve had, you know, like—I remember my first campaign. Oh my gosh. I showed up to this one woman’s house. This is really deflating. And she says to me “Oh, I already voted. And I didn’t vote for you.” (Sean chuckles) And I went “Oh. Okay.” (chuckles) And then I walked away, and I thought “Shoot! You know, why didn’t she even give me a chance to tell her about myself.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, so it’s a very humbling experience. And, honestly, I would say equally humbling is actually serving because really, you know, to have people believe in you and when they say to you, “You know what? I love what you’re doing in our community” it really does feel amazing because, again, you know back to your hard work but also, I do love the community. And I do want it to be the best that it possibly can be. And so having that part acknowledged is really important to me too. But, again, very humbling. And, you know, so every single campaign I’m like “Okay. Well, if I just go by what people are saying at the doors, I’m winning! Like I’m winning!” And then I’m like “That could not be how it is. They could just be saying that to me.” And so, you know, it really is a hard thing. And not everyone can put themselves out there. It’s nerve wracking. On that election night, you’re going “Okay. Waiting for the first numbers to come up. What’s it going to be?” And, you know, I have to say my fifth election, you know this last one, it was very ugly. It was very unfair because I was, you know—it was a smear campaign, honestly, on my integrity and what I had done for all these years and trying to paint me into a box. I don’t fit into a box. I’m going to be totally honest about that. I don’t fit into a box. I’m not a politician, don’t want to be a politician. I want to be a civic leader and someone that will read everything and make good decisions for the best of everyone. And, you know, you’re not going to make everyone happy. That part is kind of hard in elected office. But if you’re making most people happy and you’ve got a safe community, a thriving community, at the end of the day that’s all you can really hope for and, you know, again making most people happy but there are going to be some people that don’t like you. I’ve had people actually comment about what I look like which is very insulting. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: What I look like has nothing to do with the kind of job that I do. And, you know, trying to call me little nicknames and that sort of thing, I’m not a robot. I am a person so it does hurt a bit. But, you know, at the end of the day I do remember, you know, some people aren’t going to like me. That’s okay. I just know, at the end of the day really, if I go to bed and I know that I’ve done a good job that day, I wake up the next day and it’s a new day and, you know, I can let things go which it does take that in this job. You do have to let a lot of things go. You know, the personal insults really don’t matter, I guess, at the end. But, you know, I’m not a robot so it does affect me Transcribed by Melissa Martin 13 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 a bit. And, you know, you do have to really remember just to stay true to yourself. And I really am very proud that I have done that. SV: Yeah. What is your process for self-care when you’re having a negative day or a stressful time? RJ: Well, as I mentioned earlier, I have to get to the gym. I mean, I’m just one of those people, if I don’t get enough exercise I will literally overthink things. And so, for me, I’m really getting to the gym. And my gym! Oh, gosh. So, during COVID(-19 Pandemic), closed down in San Marcos. And I was like “Okay. I’m going to go to another one of them.” It was in Encinitas. But I really am very specific because it’s not a super long workout and I can do it whenever, you know, pretty much during, you know, business hours. But I like to be able to go and punch bags (laughs) and kick bags. It’s a kickbox workout. So, I’m not like punching someone. I don’t want to do that. But I do, you know—it’s a kickbox workout. So, now, I found another one. It’s in Rancho Bernardo. So, it’s not in the city which can be kind of beneficial because, you know, I’m not sweaty and looking like a mess. And then, you know, if I’m like I’m punching and I’m having an especially frustrating day, I can do that. The other thing I really love to do is hike. I admittedly have not hiked in a very long time. I actually, a few years ago, hiked in the Tetons. So, I had to do a lot of training for that. So, I was out on the trails two and three times a week which it’s actually better for me when I can find that time. The job is very, you know, —it does entail a lot of time for me. So, it is tough for me to actually do that during the day. And, you know, when we have rainy weather, that doesn’t help. Or weather that’s too hot, that doesn’t help. So, you know, really trying to find the time to at least do that. And then I love to cook. So, during the pandemic, I started cooking for a few elderly people. And so, I have some folks that I cook for. And when I need a mental health moment, I just go in my kitchen and I just cook up a storm and several meals and I mean soups and I just try lots of different, new recipes and find things that I can tweak and make my own. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But those are the things that I do. I do try to do that. I don’t get massages. I really need a massage many times though. I don’t really take the time to do that. So, really, the biggest thing is exercise and then getting that cooking in. You know, and then everyone benefits from it. SV: Yeah. RJ: Because I’m actually not a bad cook, so— (chuckles) SV: So, what’s your best dish? RJ: Oh, gosh. Well, that has evolved. I don’t know. I’ve become quite the soup maker. But I do have my tried and true. I’m really good at prime rib and au gratin potatoes. My kids are always like “Mom” —and, you know, they’re older. They’re twenty. Actually my daughter will be 23 in a few weeks, and my son just turned 27. You know, whenever they, you know, want a good meal, they’re like “Mom. Could you make this? Or can you make that?” and then I made chicken fingers for the first time ever. And they’re like “Mom. These are like the best I’ve ever had.” So, anyway, I’m like “Well, I could teach you how to do it.” And so, you know, I’ve had them over a Transcribed by Melissa Martin 14 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 couple of times and, you know, teaching people to cook, honestly is—You know, there are a lot of people that don’t cook in this world, and I think, you know, the less we eat processed food, the better it is for us. And so, I like to, you know—I cook almost solely organic. I try not to eat heavily processed food. I think it’s better for me. You know, I’m going to be 56 next year—Oh, oh my gosh. Not next year. This year! Oh, gosh! In a few weeks. Oh, gosh, about a month. So, yeah. I’ll be 56. You know, I think our bodies can actually be healthier and mentally better when we’re, you know, putting the right food in them and then also getting exercise too. So, I try to definitely do all that to take care of myself. I know that’s a long story but those are the things that I do. (chuckles) SV: Yeah. Well, thank you for answering. And I asked the food question because I used to be a chef. So, I’m always interested to know about people’s experiences. RJ: Oh, wow! Nice. Nice. SV: And then exercise, I agree. I mean, it’s so important. I think to bring it back to our interview, you know, something that I take advantage of is the bike lanes. RJ: Oh, yeah. SV: And I was curious as to what your—You know, you’ve talked about transit. You’ve talked about micro-transit and, you know, what your priorities are in terms of pedestrian and twowheeled transit as well. RJ: Yeah. Thanks for asking that. So, actually, at SANDAG, this is kind of interesting, I had actually voted against spending $140, I think it was $140 million dollars on bike lanes. And I had one of our residents send me a message. And he said, “You’re the worst mayor ever!” And I was like “Oh. Wow.” And he said, “I can’t believe how you don’t like cyclists.” And I said, “Well, that’s not exactly how that went.” And so, I explained, you know, that there’s no reason that bike lanes should be costing $5 million dollars a mile. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: That’s way too expensive. There’s no way that should be happening on a road that is literally already there. So, I said, you know, I had an issue with that. I have a real problem spending money in a wasteful way. And, you know, so I said, “Hey, let’s meet.” I sat down with him. He’s now a fan and definitely not, you know, against me any longer because he didn’t really know all of the reasons that I felt the way that I felt. I think getting input from cyclists is really important. You know, again, back to the point that we have 72 miles of, you know, trails. Those are often times, you know, available for cyclists and, you know, pedestrians, hikers, even horses because we still have horses in San Marcos. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, I am really proud about that. The one thing that, you know, I’ve done a lot of research on the different types of bike lanes, and I’m not sold on the cycle tracks. A lot of times the very serious cyclists are saying to me, “Rebecca, they’re very dangerous because you are confined in a space.” They look safe. Maybe for kids they’re safe. But they’re very expensive, first of all. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 15 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 And they really are not super safe because if you hit that curb for whatever reason, you could be thrown off of your bicycle and end up in the middle of a lane. That’s not very safe. Or there is a lot of crashes if you’ve got like—you know, most cyclists are in packs. Hardly anyone goes by themselves. I have a lot of friends that are very serious cyclists that, since this whole thing came forward, I’ve actually just from my friend group—and I do have some serious cyclists now in it. And they don’t really like those tracks. So, in my opinion, any time that we can have a sharrow, which is the bike lane that is a full lane with cyclists in it and then a car only lane, I think that’s probably a really good idea. Any time we can have a split because you’re not limited on space or real estate and have, you know, a separate bike lane that’s by itself but without all of the little candlesticks and the curbs and all that, I think that’s a good idea. It’s not always possible because a lot of times you’re putting them in after the fact. I would like to see more education. I am concerned that some people get really upset with cyclists. And some cyclists—I have to tell you. I actually had a property down at the beach, a second property, with my ex and, you know, every time I would go to back out of the driveway cyclists would come and they would like not pay attention to me. And I would go “Well, they’re not the only one on the road.” And then I would see them running stoplights and stop signs. And that actually upsets motorists. I hear people say it all the time. And I go, “I get where you’re coming from. However…” You know, I try to defend cyclists. But, you know, if we all ran by the same rules or all, you know, followed the same rules, that would actually be optimum. You’re probably never going to see that, you know. There are always people that are going to break rules. It’s just how it is. And they shouldn’t spoil it for everyone. And so, you know, I have to say I am very, very careful around cyclists, and I really wish everyone was because the truth is a cyclist is never going to win against your car. SV: Yeah. RJ: It, you know—And, you know, as soon as, you know, you hear of, you know, a cyclist getting hit by a car and they’re like “Oh, it’s obviously the car’s fault.” Sometimes it isn’t. I mean, really sometimes it isn’t. You know, sometimes yes, sometimes no. But I do think we need to, again, create the opportunities, education and, you know, let’s just get into eBikes for one second. The kids should not be on the eBikes that are above their ability. It is a moving vehicle. It is like being on a moped or a motorcycle. I am—oftentimes, I see the kids, you know, going wayward and crazy on them. And you know what? It’s a recipe for disaster. And then, you know what? There are accidents that happen. And, you know, it shouldn’t be all on the driver. The cyclists, you know, including the eBikes really need to be responsible. I really would love to see more education in that. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: I have brought that up numerous times. I think the school district really should take a lead in this. I know our deputies at our Sheriff’s station do it as well. But, you know, a lot of kids are riding them to school. And it’s very dangerous. Parents, pay attention! (laughs) SV: Yep. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 16 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: They just think, “Oh, it’s just a bicycle.” It’s really not. And it really is very dangerous and, you know, we can’t parent the kids. That’s not our job. The parents need to parent their kids and they need to teach them how to be responsible with their bicycles, their eBikes especially. SV: Yeah. eBikes are a new wrinkle to resolve, I think, in the whole transit conversation. RJ: They are. And scary! It really is scary but, you know, very beneficial because they can take you longer and, you know, longer distances quicker. And you don’t have to be in super good shape to use them. But if you’re not responsible with them, they’re very, very dangerous. SV: Yeah. They’re good for the hills around here too. RJ: Yeah. For sure. I know. Someone said “Oh, yeah, just, you know, ride your bicycle around town.” And I’m like “Yeah. That’s—” We’re very hilly in San Marcos. SV: Yep. (both laugh) All right. So, we talked a little bit about your campaign, that first campaign, in 2008. I guess I wanted to circle back a little bit to even before that, to the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force that you served on from 2005-2007. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: And I was just curious as to what was the goal of the Task Force? RJ: It was to come up with a plan of mixed use and utilizing that entire area which, by the way, you know, we’ve been updating our general plan. We’ve put that on hold for now and we’re going to have a greater emphasis on bringing the Creek District part into that because we do need to update that plan. So, FEMA has updated the flood plain and all of those, you know, different areas are going to be changed due to in a 100-year flood, what happens? You know, if we get the torrential sort of rain that we had, you know, recently, another time or worse than that, oh my gosh. It makes a big difference. We have—excuse me (hiccups) —we haven’t had a situation where it’s flooded all the way from Escondido. But it could very well happen. And so, you know, being prepared is important. You’re not going to build a bunch of buildings in the flood way. It just isn’t going to happen. Currently, there is, you know, the Valley Christian School that’s over there. It’s in the flood way. So, they can’t, you know, change their buildings or anything like that. The reason I bring that up is that’s kind of like the edge of the Creek District area and then it goes all the way over behind Grand, or right around Grand. And there’s actually affordable housing that’s right in that area. So, what we did is we approved a plan for that. And then we also started getting the permits from the agencies so we could build the infrastructure. The infrastructure will be done this year. That’s a big first step in actually moving that forward. But, then again, you know we still need to incorporate the part of the land use changes are going to happen. We also have had people like Gary London come in and say “You’ve got too much commercial to the residential. You’re going to need to make some tweaks.” So, it likely will not build as dense as we had originally approved. So, we really do need to update it and bring in those changes, you know, bringing in the flood plain. And then also the fact that the infrastructure is actually done also changes things too. SV: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 17 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: So, the emphasis will be on getting that updated as well as the general plan. SV: Okay. So, the original goal then with the Task Force and into when you served on it then was to create the plan that is now kind of being put into effect. RJ: Yes, exactly. SV: And did it account for a Creek District at that time? Because the Creek District is going to be like a public/private partnership that will help with development. RJ: Well, there was 62 property owners in there today. SV: Okay. RJ: You know, when we approved that, yeah. It was to bring an it, a place, a place where people could come— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —congregate, as I had mentioned earlier, and really, you know, a space where it would be, you know, open. And, you know, you could have, you know, different community events there and that sort of thing. Also, North City is that way. North City we actually approved as a university district back in 2009. We always thought the Creek would come first. Well, University District has now really become. And again, you know, we don’t even have an actual downtown in San Marcos. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, you know, creating a downtown, creating that space. It looks like North City is becoming that. You know, we’ve got the Belgian Waffle Ride coming this weekend. It’s the largest cycling event in the western United States. It’s a big deal. Thousands of cyclists are coming from all over. They’re going to be eating in our city. They’re going to be staying here. We don’t have a ton of hotels. There are going to be a couple of other ones in North City and then also in the Creek District eventually. But really creating that downtown was one of the things that we really wanted to do. But we always saw North City—a university district back then when we approved it—and then the creek, because they connect. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Having that as a center core for the city. SV: When do you think North City will be built out? RJ: Oof. Well, that depends on so many different things. If I had a crystal ball, I could answer that. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, they’ve been (sighs), they’ve been through a downturn in the economy. They’ve been through a pandemic. You know, they’ve been through a lot. If you go there today, you Transcribed by Melissa Martin 18 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 know, they’ve got several restaurants. They’ve got the only, first of its kind, building with the university which is the Extended Learning Building because there’s nothing like that in all of California. And then you’ve got like Mesa Rim. You’ve got Draft Republic which was the old Urge Gastropub. You have Newtopia Cyder, Fresh Café, Maya’s Cookies, Wynston’s Ice Cream, Copa Vida, Buona Forcbetta, Umami, a lot of things happening there but, you know, not the residences. You have a little bit of residence there. You’ve got the quad, which is university, you know, kids that live there. And then you have Block C. And then you have the block that’s The Wrap behind. And then also, you know, don’t forget too Pima Medical is right there. And then, you know, you’ve got medical offices now, Scripps Health. And so, a lot of things are happening. It really is on the edge of becoming something much bigger. They have broken ground on and they’re moving forward with the first large-scale residential in there. And it’s going to be about 12 stories high. And so that will really be a game changer, I think, for North City. I think that will be what brings the really the grocery store and the other businesses that they need that can actually handle those residents and offer the services that they need. And, you know, that’s always what the Creek was envisioned. I mean these are things that I learned when we were, you know, going on these field trips to old Pasadena and, you know, all these different places that were mixed use because we didn’t really have much mixed use at that time in the city. We have a little bit over off of Mission but it’s very, very small scale. You know, having the meeting spaces, having the, you know, congregation spaces where you can have like an open-air amphitheater, something like that, that’s all things that really we started with the planning of the Creek District. Again, you know, we have to update that. But really—And it, you know, kind of grew into also North City being part of that, being a large scale downtown core area for us. SV: Yeah. There is a lot of construction going on right now. RJ: Yes. There is. SV: You have the infrastructure going on along the Creek District. You have it seems like three or four different projects right around North City and in North City. RJ: Yeah. So, you know, okay. So, back when I was selling new homes in my early twenties, I was working at Discovery Creek, Discovery Trail, so Discovery Hills. And back then we had, you know, this big map that showed everything that was going to happen in the, you know, the adjoining property. Back then, Craven (Road) wasn’t even there. I mean this—just to date myself of how long I’ve been around in San Marcos. First moved here in 1987. Just looking at, you know, what it was going to be with Kaiser Hospital, Scripps Hospital which isn’t going to happen now. But they are going to have medical offices, much like Carmel Mount Ranch. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, pretty large-scale medical offices. You know, unfortunately, you know medical is always something that we need. And, you know, fortunately though we’ve got some space to put that. You know, we don’t want people to have to go all the way down to Carmel Mount Ranch to go to a doctor. And, you know, currently Kaiser Permanente doesn’t have a hospital. The nearest one is Mira Mesa. So, 180,000 subscribers in North County have to go all the way there for a hospital. So, it’s going to be opening up in August I’m told. They’ve got a ribbon cutting all Transcribed by Melissa Martin 19 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 scheduled. And the Creek project, the infrastructure, it’s about $112 million to start. That is our largest capital improvement project we’ve ever had. We broke ground on that on my one-year anniversary of taking office as Mayor, which is exciting being that, you know, I’d only been talking about it for 10-12 years (laughs) before that. And, you know, before me many other councils had talked about it. You know, this year is our 60th anniversary or birthday, and our sister city Vista, it’s their birthday as well. We were incorporated on January 28, 1963. And so, here we are. We’re in our birthday year, opening up our largest capital improvement project, opening up our hospital. I mean, a lot is happening. There’s also an extension of Discovery (Road) which is about $40 million as well, 30-40 million. That is going from Craven (Road) all the way through to Twin Oaks (Valley Road). That’s a big deal too, getting that done. But, you know, we’re trying to move people around in a meaningful way. That will be one of our first corridors that has intuitive lighting, stop lights that will help people get through. But one of the things that I’ve really focused on that I want to get done is to make sure that we’re getting the traffic flow better. Traffic, it does feel like it’s at its worst. That’s one of the things that my opponent (Randy Walton) was using against me during the campaign. I’m like “Well, we’ve got all this road construction. Sure as heck, we’re going to have terrible traffic right now.” But when it’s done, I believe it will be a significant improvement. You know, getting the flooding to stop so you no longer have that. Being able to have two lanes over Via Veracruz is a big deal. And I remember originally when we were talking about, you know, the Bent Crossing. We talked about a—to save money, well, what if we did an Arizona Crossing (culvert crossing), which I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. SV: I’m not. RJ: It would still flood! SV: Okay. RJ: And I said “No. No. No. Let’s, let’s not do that.” So, we were able to apply for federal funds. And so, a lot of it is grant funded but a lot of money also comes from San Marcos residents. So again, you know, back to wanting to spend their money wisely. Helping move them around the city is really important. We appreciate everyone being so patient—not always patient. But, you know, it has been a tough, tough project because we’ve had unprecedented rain this year, of course. Of course, it had to happen! Just when we weren’t expecting it to happen. But, you know, it would have been a heck of a lot worse had we not had the bridge at Bent opened. I think that could have been actually dangerous for our residents if we had not gotten so far ahead on that. But that will be done probably about a July timeframe. So, the infrastructure will be done. The hospital will come right after that in August. I would say it’s a good year, a good year that we’re getting a lot done, you know, the hospital done and everything, just a lot of good things for our residents. And again, you know, the jobs that we’re providing too, that’s a thousand jobs at Kaiser Permanente. So, those are some really good high-paying jobs. I think that’s a huge win. I’m really proud of that. You know, when I first got the call from their west coast person, he said to me “Are you still interested in the hospital?” And I was like “Where do I sign up?” (laughs) Because, yes! Of course, I’m still interested. Anything we can do to help make that happen, you know. And, you know, also having the university have, you know, the nursing program has been Transcribed by Melissa Martin 20 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 really important. And then, you know, also over at Palomar because, you know, these are also the ability to teach, you know, hands on is a big deal. And, you know, we’re becoming a healthcare hub, now, of North County which is great, you know, with the hospital opening up and then Scripps are moving forward with their big medical offices. It’s, you know, again it’s sad that people are not healthy, however good that they have the ability to get those healthcare options close to home. SV: Yeah. RJ: And the good jobs, of course. SV: Yes. RJ: Yeah. SV: Yeah. Definitely. RJ: In fact, my niece actually just got her nurse’s license. So, very exciting. SV: Congratulations to your niece. RJ: Yes, very exciting. SV: I wanted to circle back a little bit to 2018 and just ask you why did you decide to run for mayor then? RJ: Oosh, well, I decided well before 2018. I actually decided when I was getting elected in 2016 as mayor. I talked to my husband at the time and, you know, ’18 was a tough year, I have to tell you. I was finishing up my divorce. He told me he didn’t want to be married anymore in 2017. So, I was in the middle of a divorce. I had to sell the property, buy a property. I moved 10 days after the election. A lot of people don’t know how hard that was. It was really tough. But, you know, what I knew that, again, you know being apolitical, really pretty apolitical, was an important thing for our future. I think also, you know, having these large-scale things coming up. I wanted to see them through. And, you know, I have to tell you, looking back and seeing all that we have been able to accomplish during my time on the council, I’m so proud. I know that when I’m ready to retire, I can look back and be very proud of what I’ve been able to accomplish with very, you know, diverse group of people. We now have three women, by the way, on the city council which is great. But, you know, again, you know, for 2018 having the first mayor that’s a female, that’s pretty surprising. You know, as progressive as the city is and, you know, how entrepreneurial we’ve really been, I always thought it would be Pia Harris Ebert, which she has been a wonderful mentor to me. I can’t express enough how much I value her leadership, all of her 24 years on the city council. But, you know, when she told me she was retiring, I said, “What?? You can’t go!” and she said, “You know what? I can look back and I can be very proud.” I mean we used to be known for our chicken ranch and then our dairy. And that was it! We were known as a chicken ranch and dairy city, not for higher learning education, being a great place to run a family, a great school district. We were never known for that. We were known for other things. So, I really am proud of how we’ve elevated who we’ve become, the city that we are, and all that we have accomplished. And so, you know, I feel like, you know, the Transcribed by Melissa Martin 21 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 things needed to be seen through and now, you know, I’m on my second term as mayor just, you know, getting reelected last year. I am very happy. I’m very happy. But I’m also, you know, as concerned about, you know, creating opportunity for a new team to come in that is like-minded, focusing on us being a safe city, focusing on us being an entrepreneurial city, also making sure that we are serving our community and providing awesome trails and parks and all of that. And it becomes very challenging when you’re an infill city, and as built out as we are. So, you know, it’s got to be, you know, trying to find good people that want to come after me. And that’s, you know, what both Pia Harris Ebert and Hal Martin did. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And I appreciate that. And I take that responsibility very seriously as well. So, that’s what I’m going to be doing the next three years, three and a half years. And then, you know, making sure that we stay focused. And we’re going to have some tough financial times. You know, it’s—business has not come back the way that we’ve all hoped. And so, you know, we hear of layoffs all the time. You know, General Atomics, I think they laid off 400 people last week. That’s a lot! So, having those challenges you really do need to have a good team in there. But, you know, I’m trying to bring other people forward because that’s a big part of, you know, a succession plan. It’s really important. SV: Yeah. You mentioned businesses haven’t come back. Were you referring to from the (COVID-19) pandemic? RJ: Correct. Yes. SV: Yeah. RJ: Just not in the way—you know, we do have a lot of businesses that have opened. But, you know, we also lost some. I mean, San Marcos Brewery, I still am sad about that, you know, a long-time business in our city, gone. Couldn’t keep their doors open with the open and closing and all of that. There are a lot of stories like that, unfortunately. And so, you know, being able to support the business community, I work a lot at that. I mean if I—I try to do everything I possibly can to support our businesses. And, you know, it’s not like one business. It’s thousands, you know. We’ve got like four tho—let me think here—four thousand businesses here in the city. It’s a lot! SV: Yeah. RJ: It’s a lot. It’s actually upwards of four thousand. And, you know, many of those are store fronts and they’re very small and, you know, they’re family owned. And, you know, I love that. I love that they’re thriving. I love that they’re doing well. I was actually just at a business opening a couple of weeks ago. The father-in-law of this young woman that just opened a brand-new business, he is a long-time business owner in San Marcos, twenty—I think twenty-six years he’s been in business. So, you know, seeing those generations, you know, staying in the city, opening up new businesses. I love that. But, you know, they’re going to need our help. And, you know, they need us to congregate and go to their businesses and, you know, spend our money here locally. And I try to always, you know, emphasize that. You know, during the pandemic, I Transcribed by Melissa Martin 22 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 tirelessly spent so much time on, you know, media just hey talking about all of our great businesses, and what about this and what about that and you know they need us now. But they need us still now. It’s not going to end. And, you know, a lot of them are really struggling. So, as costs go up, people eat out less. They spend less of their money. And so, we’ve got to remember that, when you can, try to spend it locally, whenever possible. SV: Yeah. I imagine a lot of governance is trying to minimize the bad impacts of change, you know, unforeseen or foreseen. And you talked a little bit about the pandemic. I was curious as to, you know, what you could do to lessen the burden on folks during that time and what you all did do. RJ: Gosh. Wow, we did a lot actually. We were the first city that—you know, we have always had very good reserves. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, that’s something that is because we’ve been very fiscally responsible. That money is for rainy days. And when the pandemic came, that was a rainy day. SV: Yeah. RJ: It really was. And so, we set aside $3 million. We were the first city, I believe. The only other city that may have actually beat us was the city of San Diego. But I think they set aside like $5 million. We set aside $3 million. They’ve got a population of 1.3 million. SV: Yeah. RJ: We have a population of under 100. So, I think we really outshined them in that. And I’m really proud that we did that. And that is, you know, that’s being very, very pro-business. I’ve always been pro-business, you know, being that I owned my own business and I know how hard it was. I thought that was something that we should do. And I wholeheartedly believe it’s the right thing to do for our community. But, anyway, so we did that. And we had business loans. So, it was small business loans up to $50,000, depending on your circumstances. We hired an outside company to do all the credit checks. And just, you know, you couldn’t be late prior to Covid. You know, you had to meet a few guidelines. But we were very intentional about trying to get that money out fast, as fast as possible. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: The federal government didn’t have any money out. And we had already saved a lot of businesses. Then the other thing that we did is we were the first city that had our businesses, as soon as the governor—I remember watching the press conference. And Governor Newsom said, when he was talking about some of the businesses could no longer be operating inside, but he didn’t say outside! I was on the phone to our economic development director, and I said, “I’m thinking we can have outside businesses. What can we do to make this as quick as possible.” And we had people moving their businesses. And it was a lot of services, like haircutting and all of that. And then there was another issue about that because—and, you know, restaurants and everything. But there was another issue with that because they didn’t have their business Transcribed by Melissa Martin 23 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 licenses. So, we were actually fighting to open up. And, you know, I mean, again, tirelessly, the letters that I sent to the governor. I mean, I was on full blown action I felt like the whole time, which is very exhausting. SV: Yeah. RJ: But it was like okay, let’s get those businesses moved outside as soon as they can. And we had businesses and we’re like “Don’t worry about your permit. We’re going to check, make sure that you are following it. Just follow these guidelines and we’ll come and check on you.” We had businesses out there before any other. And we didn’t charge anyone a fee. There were a lot of cities that were out there charging them a fee. We’re like no. We need our businesses to stay in place. We need to support them, and we can’t just say that we’re supporting them. We actually have to do it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, I am really proud that we did that. And, you know again, we didn’t close all of our trails. We were not very out in public, you know, screaming it from the rooftops that we’re open because we didn’t want our city residents to feel crowded because all of the other residents from the other cities were coming, though some people knew about them. It was just—it was important for us to do everything we could to support the community. So, fast forward to when we received our federal funds, we were actually able to take all of those loans and make them grants so they didn’t have to be paid back. That was huge. SV: Yeah. RJ: The other thing that we did is we set aside some of our ARPA (American Rescue Plan Act) funds to help our non-profits. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Because they were really hurting at that time too. And I am so proud of all of the things that we did during the pandemic because it was us being innovative, us cutting through the red tape, and us working hard to support our businesses and our community and our non-profits. Because our non-profits support our residents, right? And then the other thing that we also did is—and it’s not our responsibility, though we recognized that our community, our youth were doing very poorly. You know, I’ve been involved with the Boys and Girls Club for many years. And one of the things that they—I was having a conversation with them—one of the things that they were saying is that many of the kids that are at risk were not checking in. And so, you know, you’ve got parents that are very frustrated. The kids are at risk of being abused or neglected. And you’ve got this ultra tough situation happening. So, the mental health of our community, you know, we’ve really tried to focus on that too. And so, one of the things that we did for our youth in the community is we partnered with the school district, and we are equally funding the mental health program that they have rolled out to help the kids bounce back and figure out. You know, a lot of them are so confused. A lot of them have learning deficits. They don’t know how to articulate that, their frustration, their fear and, you know, just getting sick. You know, a lot of them are terrified of getting sick. And, you know, what is life going to be? It’s very different. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 24 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Yeah. RJ: You know, back to the whole pivot—I mean, I know pivot is kind of overused during the pandemic, but it’s a real thing. And so, for us as a city, you know, we made an intentional effort to do what we could to also help the kids. And, you know again, I think I told you this a little bit earlier, you know, I had people—I felt like a counselor many times during the pandemic. I had some of our folks calling me up and sending me messages and saying, you know, “I’m scared.” And so, I would check in on people and let them know, “Hey. You know what? You’re seen. You’re heard. We care about you.” So, you know, mayor’s job is not just all legislation. You know, there’s a lot of parts to it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I think something that a lot of people think is really, it’s just all about rules and regulations. That’s all your job is. Well, I think as a mayor especially, and a councilmember to some degree, but I think as a mayor I’m the figurehead pretty much for the city council. A lot of people know who the mayor is, and they might not know who their councilperson is. For me to be the face of our city, out there letting people know that we care about them and letting them know that it’s not all about rules and regulations. We actually had a young man that was murdered within our community by one of his friends. He was in his early 20s. And, you know, we renamed a trail after him, actually the Gratitude Trail in his memory, right there around Discovery Lake because us doing things to help our community heal in tough times, in tragic times, is really important. And I really do think that that’s a part of government that sometimes people are like “Well, I’m a politician. I don’t have to do that.” Yeah, you don’t have to do it. But I think doing it is important because, again, you know, how—you know, during the pandemic, people needed to know we care about you. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: We care about your businesses. We’re all in with you. We’re going to do everything we can to keep you open and do it safely, of course. But, you know, when it was all the big businesses could stay open and then the small businesses were closed. They couldn’t adapt to that! SV: Yeah. RJ: Many of them went out of business. And, you know, so we had to make it so that it’s easy for every small business to get a fair shake, to be treated like a large business, you know, while also following the health order. So, it was a real tough time. And, again you know, back to grief. You’ve got to deal with grief too within a community and figure out how to move people forward. And, you know, one of the things that I think is always important is, even if you’re taking baby steps moving forward, you’ve got to move forward. Whatever that looks like. And sometimes it’s very different than two weeks ago even. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I mean when the pandemic hit, remember, two weeks! Staying home. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 25 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Yeah. We have a archive that we started mostly with the students, but with community as well, trying to record experiences during that time. RJ: Yeah. SV: And it’s amazing so many students especially writing “I thought I was going to have a twoweek vacation and here I am a year later.” And, you know, it’s just— RJ: Yeah. SV: —it’s just a traumatic experience all the way around. RJ: For sure. And, you know, I mean that is a part, I think, of being a mayor during a pandemic that I—you know, it’s kind of interesting. I was on a Zoom with some girl scouts, and they said to me “If you knew there was going to be a pandemic, would you still run for mayor?” (Sean laughs) And it was funny because I didn’t even hesitate and I said, “Absolutely!” SV: Yeah. RJ: And the reason being is because I was the right person at the right time. I am very positive and I’m very—I mean, you know, the glass is not half-full. The glass is almost to the top, right? There’s always a way to bring everyone together. There’s always a way to, you know, encourage people. And, you know, that’s what I did! My job changed. But I kept working. And, you know, there were a lot of people that really needed to be seen and I let them know they were being seen. SV: Yeah. RJ: I think without hesitation I am glad that I was the mayor at that point in time. SV: Mm-hmm. It’s a really interesting thing that you say about there being—I guess you’re saying so your job is obviously legislation. But it’s also emotional labor and care and I’m hearing as well, communication is important. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: What are some other aspects? I guess my question is what would surprise people the most about your job that people don’t know? RJ: Oh, that’s a tough one. Gosh, I don’t even know if I have an answer to that. You know, it’s interesting. So, Jeff Zevely, he’s from Channel 8. He actually was doing a show on our birthday. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And he said to me, he goes “You know, if San Marcos had a cheer squad, would you be on it?” and I said, “I’m the head cheerleader! What are you talking about?” (both chuckle) And he even said to me after the interview, he goes “You were so fast. You didn’t even like stop for one second.” I said, “Well, that’s my job.” My job is to not just deal with all the tough stuff. It’s also to be out advocating that San Marcos is a great place to live. We have so much for—You know, you can start out, you know, as a baby. And pretty soon you’ll be able to be born here (indicates quotations with her fingers), actually born here, because—I mean, I guess you could be born at Transcribed by Melissa Martin 26 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 your house if you’ve got a midwife or something but, you know, it’s not a traditional thing. You could be born here, and you can earn a master’s degree and then you could work here, and you could have a good paying job. Like that is a remarkable thing if you look at our city from our humble roots: one stop light, chicken ranch, the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch right here where the university is today. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And Hollandia Dairy. That’s all we were known for. And so, yeah, I would say a lot of people might not know what that entails but it’s a lot of time and effort. I can assure you of that. SV: Yeah. RJ: Like it’s almost more than the actual job, although I do a lot of reading. So, that’s probably the most time consuming part of my job, you know, because when I show up, you know, I’ve even had people at SANDAG say—that are a different political party than me—say, “You know, I might not—” And actually this happened like maybe, well it’s happened a few times, but in the last couple of weeks, where this man got up and he said, “You know, Mayor Jones—” and I’m like going “Oh gosh. What’s he going to say?” (both laugh) You never know, right? And then he says, “Mayor Jones, even though I philosophically don’t agree with you on everything, I appreciate that you are always prepared, and you know exactly what you’re talking about because you’re prepared.” And it really does require a lot of time and effort. And, you know, there are times I wake up and I’m like “I’m tired today. I don’t want to work.” But I don’t get that luxury. I have to do what I have to do. And I’ve got to pull it together. And it is a very—you know, the cheerleading part of it and I’m not saying it, you know, like a cheerleader—but, you know, being again the spokesperson, the person that’s in the front, the person that’s out and about the most, probably one of the most identifiable positions in the community—even if people don’t know me, they know that there’s a mayor. You know, to be the mayor of such an incredible city, I’m really humbled by it. I really am. But it does take a lot of effort and it does take a lot of, you know, inner strength. And, you know, I had a pretty tough childhood and, you know, I was a latchkey kid a lot of the time. And, you know, my parents got divorced when I was eleven which is a really tough age. And I had a lot of things happen where I just go “Gosh, I wish it wouldn’t have been my life.” However, it was. But you know what? It also gives me the authority when people are, you know, telling me “You know, I’m going through tough times,” I get it! I was there. I’ve been there. And, you know, I think it helps me do a very good job. And, you know, not everyone thinks I do a good job. But I just got reelected so— SV: Yep! RJ: —again, 64% of the vote. I don’t think I mentioned that before. But the largest margin I’ve ever won by, I think that is a testament to how much I care for the community, how hard I work for the community, and the fact that it’s not all about legislation to me. It really is about being the cheerleader and the person that’s out in the front, talking about what a remarkable community we have. And when I say, “the community,” it’s the people. SV: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 27 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: It’s not me. It’s people that I represent. And I hope that they will always feel like they can reach out to me, and I will always try to help them in whatever I can. SV: Yeah. Thank you. I think I had maybe one or two more questions. But something that I didn’t necessarily prepare to talk about in this interview, I wanted to ask you about was you mentioned you’re the first mayor that was elected that’s a woman in San Marcos history. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: And I was curious if there are considerations that, in your opinion, that women politicians have to take into account that men do not. RJ: Huh! (Sean chuckles) Well… SV: I know that’s a big question. RJ: Well, I’m also not married. So, it actually is quite awkward— SV: Yeah. RJ: —in a lot of ways, you know, because I am out there. It opens it up for—And, you know, there’s a lot of discussion about bias, right? SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: There is still bias against women. It’s sad. But there are. And women politicians! I don’t know if people are surprised all the time. But, I mean, I have been, I mean, I’ve been called names. I’ve been, you know, people try to box me in as I mentioned earlier. It’s hard to believe that it’s 2023 and things still happen the way that they happen because, you know, talking about what I look like, what my body looks like. I’ve had people actually talk about what my body looks like! I’m thinking, wow! You know? Would you say that to your mother? Because I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t. And so, you know, at a job like this that’s very out there, very highly visible—and I am highly visible—you know, I’ve had a few times, very inappropriate comments, inappropriate messages sent to me. And, you know, a couple of times I’m like “Gee, should I be worried?” And I send everything to the Sheriff’s department when I have things that are sent to me that are uncomfortable. But it’s different than being a man. One hundred percent. It’s very different than being a man. I don’t think you have to worry about people talking about what you look like. I don’t think that any man as a mayor would have people sending them messages about what they look like. SV: Yeah. RJ: I don’t think it would ever happen. Now, I don’t really mean if someone says “Oh, I really like how your style.” That’s not sexual. But the truth is a lot of things that are sent are very sexual and I think—I am actually flabbergasted, and you know I’m almost 56 years old. I’m flabbergasted that at 56 years old, as an elected mayor, that I would be treated like this. But it happens! SV: Yeah. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 28 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: It’s really hard to believe. And, honestly, I feel bad for every woman that is just trying to do a job and it gets distracted and convoluted by people bringing in other things that are just not appropriate. It’s just not appropriate. I mean, talking about what I look like or whether they—I mean, the first thing that someone said to me—I was offended but it was early on—was that my teeth were freakishly white. And I went (makes a puzzled and slightly disgusted look on her face) “Why would someone talk about that?” I don’t even think someone would say that about a man. SV: Yeah. RJ: But I feel like, as a woman, on some level there is this—it’s open to talk about what you’re wearing, what you look like, whether they think you are, you know, someone they would want to date or someone—I mean, like really inappropriate things when you’re just trying to darn well do a job, you know what I mean? So, it really is just hard to believe that here we are in 2025—or 2023. Gosh, I can’t even believe I just said that. (both laugh) SV: What would your advice— RJ: You can cut that part out! (both still laughing) SV: We’ll make a note. What would your advice be to women entering politics? RJ: That’s another tough one. You know, I have a podcast too. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And one of the things about my podcast that I love is that you’ve got women from every different, you know, career, all different political parties. It’s not at all political. But they’re all just doing their job and they found something that they love. So, I guess one of the things that I would tell women that are thinking about politics, if you love it, you should definitely do it because you’re going to be very, very effective when you can put your heart into it. There is a lot of preparation that happens. And like for me, you know, I now am the one with the historical knowledge because I’ve been around so long. There is a lot to learn. I mean, you really do need to try to figure out why things happened. I mean, when I first joined the council, I spent every single Friday, like half a day, with the City Manager because he was with the city for like 24 years to find out everything I could about the why and the how and, you know, just how things happen because I thought that would prepare me which it has. But don’t let the things—I mean, you are going to have to have thick skin. It’s true. You are going to have to have thick skin, thicker than a man that goes into politics. But don’t be deterred by people. You really need to follow what you think is right and bringing in your own style. Like I don’t know anyone that does my job the way that I do it because I do it my way. And I don’t let any political party call me up and tell me what to do. I follow what I believe is right. And I follow the kind of politician that I want to be, though I don’t really consider myself politician, technically I am. But I really just want to do a good job. I want to be prepared. I think as a woman you probably have to be a little more prepared. Otherwise, people will start thinking that “Well, you don’t belong there. You’re not smart enough. You’re not this.” It really is about taking information and making a good decision. If you’re a good decision-maker, you can do this job. You’re qualified. You love the community, you’re qualified. If you are willing to put a lot into it, you’re qualified. Not Transcribed by Melissa Martin 29 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 everyone has that qualification. And when I say qualification, it’s not just what others believe but it’s what you believe on the inside. And, you know again, back to my podcast, my podcast is about elevating women because we really still need elevating. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: As, you know, there’s a lot of talk about, you know, different segments of the population whether you’re a minority, whatever, it really still is about women too. We do fit into that. The equity and the inclusion isn’t all about your race. It’s about also your gender because our gender still is a hinderance. And some people don’t see that. And I wish more people paid attention to that because when you’re a woman, you’re a minority. You really do have more against you than a man that’s a minority. And as a woman that is not a minority, you still have things against you that are something that a man would not experience. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And I wish more people really paid attention to that. But, you know, back to the point of if you’re a woman and you really want to, if you have a heart for politics, you should not let any one person or segment of people deter you if you really, really have the heart for it because you can do it. It just is going to be probably a little harder than it is for a man. SV: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you for that answer. And I think it’s wonderful advice. RJ: Thank you. SV: I’ll give you a much nicer question. RJ: Nah, that’s not a hard question at all! I, honestly, and I really do believe it. I mean, it’s terrible! It really is terrible that we’re still there, in 2023. SV: Yeah. RJ: Why did I say 2025? I don’t know. (Sean laughs) SV: It happens. What is the best day of work that you’ve had? RJ: Oh, gosh. There have been a lot of them. I would say I had a really good one recently. And it’s weird because, you know, it’s always something different. But honestly, when I am out in the community at an event and there are kids and they ask me things like—I was at the Boys and Girls Club and I was, of all things, baking cookies with them. So, let me tell you a little story. So, during the pandemic, we decided at West Lake Village that we, the city, that we were—well, we already knew that we were going to have a long-term lease for the Boys and Girls Club so they could expand their services at that location. And then, when we got some of our ARPA (American Rescue Plan Act) funds, we were like okay, we’ll help them with the TIs (tenant improvements) because then that’ll be good for the community because kids can go there and, you know, spend, you know, more time there. So, anyway, I was like “Oh, they’re going to have a kitchen there.” And I was like “That’s so cool.” So, I called up the director—and by the way, I started a girls mentoring program at the Boys and Girls Club which during the pandemic we had to kind of shut down. But I used my tax refund to put some money into it. And I said to them, I Transcribed by Melissa Martin 30 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 said “You know what would be great?” I go, “I really want to come back and spend more time with the kids,” because I’ve been so busy since I got elected as mayor. I don’t always have time to do all the things I really want to do. And I said, “Can I come back and, you know, bake cookies with the kids?” And they were like “Yeah, sure.” And I said, “So, I want to also donate a mixer.” You know, not all kids get to use a really nice KitchenAid mixer. But it’s really cool to use and to learn and, you know again, like to your point, you know. When you’re a chef, you probably are going to be using one of those at some point in time. So, I was like “I really want to buy one.” I’m like “It’s on my heart. I want to do this.” So, I donated the mixer a while ago. And then I’m like, “Gosh. Okay, it’s January. I need to start figuring out when I’m going to get in and bake cookies with the kids because I really want to do it.” And so, we set up a date. It was right after the darn (Highway) 78 flooding happened. SV: Oh, yeah. RJ: And CalTrans (California Department of Transportation). And it was that day. It was that day at 4 o’clock. I was supposed to go over there and bake cookies with them. And then I had to cancel because Caltrans had to have this emergency meeting. And I was like on Zoom, and I was like “Oh, darn it.” I’m like “Oh, duty calls.” I’m like “Can we reschedule another day?” So, we rescheduled another day. I get there and the kids are so excited to meet the mayor first of all. And this is, by the way, intentionally in one of our lower income areas of the city. It’s over on Autumn Drive. And they’re like “Do you think I could be a mayor?” And I just got to hang out and talk to them and I’m like—and teach them how to make, you know, how to crack the eggs. They were doing so good. And, you know, so there was about—I think there was like 12 or 14 of them. I’m like “I want to go back and do that like so all the kids that go to that branch have that moment of time with me.” Because I appreciated it as much as they did. And so, for me, the moments like that or when I get to go and talk to, you know, kids that are at the Boys and Girls Club service groups like Girls Scouts, Boys Scouts. All of the kids groups, honestly, those are the best days that I always have. I mean, really, the kids are excited. I’m really excited to hear what they have to say. But I also am getting a different—and back to, you know, my point of going out and door knocking and meeting people and hearing what they have to say about the city. I’m hearing it from kids and they’re going to be 100% honest. SV: Yeah. RJ: They’re not going to sugarcoat it. SV: (laughs) That’s true. RJ: They’re not going to try to fluff me up. They’re not going to try to get something out of me. They are going to tell me exactly what they think about their community. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And you know what? I appreciate that. So, for me, it’s always about the moments with the kids when I get to go out and do things like that. It actually fills me so much more than any other moments because, again you know, you do have to put a lot into it. You know, when you’re out there on—and when I say “on” (air quotes with her fingers) you know, you’re talking to people. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 31 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 And I don’t want people to feel like they can’t approach me. So, I’m very approachable. And that is one of the things that I really do pride myself on. I don’t want anyone to feel like I ever don’t approach—you know, they can’t approach me. And so, one of our community members sent me this message recently and he said to me, “You know,” —his daughter was in the kids mentor, the girls mentor group—and he said “You know,” he goes “it was so cute. My daughter, we were talking about something.” And she’s also a Girl Scout. And he said “Yeah. She says ‘Well, I know the mayor.’” (both laugh) And he’s like “and she was saying this, you know, to my wife and, you know, to—we had friends over and she goes ‘yeah, I know the mayor.’” And he goes “It was the coolest thing because she really felt like she connected with me.” And I’m like “She did connect with me.” and I love that. I love that our kids in the community can feel like they connected with me because I feel like they will never probably forget that. And I oftentimes when I’m places—I actually did this a couple of weeks ago. I was getting some food to go from San Marcos Market. There was a mom and the daughter and I were just kind of talking. And I went out to my car, and I got her one of our city pens and then I said to her, and I say this very often—so, you know, our city emblem is a wayfinding sign, a compass—and I said to her, I said, “Do you know what this is?” I took it back to her. I said, “Do you know what this is?” And she goes, “No.” And I said, “Well, you’ll probably see it on all of our San Marcos signs. It’s a wayfinding sign, so it’s a compass.” And I said, “What it stands for is to discover life’s possibilities. And it’s going to be different for you than it is for me and for your little friends. Every single one of you has something that is your path to success.” And it’s not all— Everyone’s not going to go to a four-year college. I actually didn’t go to a four-year college. But everyone’s going to have a path to success. And I want everyone to know that they’ve got something inside of them that is what their path is and, you know, it might not be traditional. It might be traditional, but it might not. And I want everyone to know that there is their best self. There is a place that is a best self for every single person. And, again, it’s going to be very different for everyone. And, you know, my kids, my daughter just graduated from USD. My son went to Palomar. Totally different kids. Totally different people. But it doesn’t mean that one is going to be more successful than the other. And I want people to know that and believe that in themselves. I didn’t have parents that, you know, tried to make me feel like I could be successful in whatever I did. I honestly believe that my parents just wanted me to get married and have babies. And that was all they really hoped for me. And here I am. I’m the mayor of one of the best cities in the county. And I am so grateful for every moment that I get to spend in the community and encouraging people and spending my time letting them know that we believe in them. We care about them. That’s what my job is in a nutshell. And I know it is kind of back to a different point of what we were talking about. But the truth is every moment that you’re inspiring kids in the community is a win for me. SV: Yeah. RJ: So, those days are the best. And, you know, really I try to—I always carry my pens in the car. I’m like “Wait! Just wait!” I try to throw them, honestly, in my purse sometimes or in my pocket or whatever. I don’t always remember. But I think those moments when you just say that one thing, that could change the trajectory of someone’s life. And I know I remember my fourthgrade teacher, Mrs. Long. Here I am, you know, 56 years old almost. And I remember fourth Transcribed by Melissa Martin 32 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 grade, what she said to me. She said, “You can do bigger things than you think you can.” And I just know that that’s why I am the right person, right now, to do what I’m doing. SV: Yeah. RJ: And I’m so grateful for it. And I really have a hard time believing that I actually am doing this, but I love it. Most days I absolutely love it, SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And there are times when you’re tired and you go “I don’t want to get up today.” But then, you know, you have those days where you really just go “Okay. This is going to fill me in. Now, I can get through another week or whatever.” SV: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you. I think that’s a great sentiment to end our interview on. I did want to ask you just one more question and that is if there’s anything that I should have asked you that I did not. RJ: No, because honestly, you know how I—I think you realize what my style is. (both laugh) if you don’t bring it up and I want to say it, I’ll just bring it in there. So, no, I don’t think so. SV: Okay. RJ: Yeah, I don’t think so. It’s funny. At KUSI, they’re like “Oh, well, we’ll just ask you one question. You just know what to do.” (both laugh) “You know what, you can just get everything you want to say in.” I’m like “Oh, okay. Thanks!” And, you know, by the way, when I was first elected as mayor, I was like “I can’t go on TV! I’m scared to death! I’m going to be sweating. I’m going to be stressed. I’m going to say wrong things.” Like now, I’m like, I laugh about it. You know, what I said. I’m like “Aw, geez. Two thousand twenty-five. What am I saying?” (raises her hands and chuckles) You know, but I used to be really hard on myself. But you know what? I don’t think people really want perfection. They want truth and honesty and authentic. SV: Yeah. RJ: And, you know, I try to be those things. I try to be, you know—I don’t even honestly think about it. I just try not to be guarded when I am—And, you know, if I show up to something, I don’t want to be the person that is like “Cheese!” (motions as if smiling widely for a camera) take a picture and then leave. Like, I’m there to do whatever you need me to do. Like if I need to take out trash, get icky stuff on my hands, I’m going to do it. Like, I want to be fully engaged when I show up to things. And I don’t think every politician is like that. I honestly wish there were more people, not exactly my style, but really having the reason as the reason, as the real reason, you know what I mean? Not like “Oh, I’m looking for my next thing, my next higher office.” (makes air quotes with hands) You know, I am planning on running for county supervisor next. But if I’m not elected, I’m totally fine. I’ve done good. I really do believe that. I really do believe I’ve done good. SV: Yeah. When are you running for county supervisor? RJ: In 2026, when this term is over. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 33 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Okay. RJ: So, not to worry. I’m not going to skip like in the middle of my term. So, Jim Desmond will be termed out and I’m running for that seat. And, you know, it’s a bigger job but, you know, the good thing is I will get paid for the hours that I work. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And then I have staff. So, I think I can work on the same level, you know, put in the same amount but have more fruit because I have people working for me and I’m actually getting paid for it. So— SV: Yeah. RJ: You know, because we make less than $12,000 a year. I don’t know if you know that. SV: I didn’t know. RJ: Yeah. Yeah. I’m the best value in the county. (both laugh) Everyone’s like—Well, actually a bunch of my friends are like “You’re the hardest working mayor in the whole county!” And I go “Well, you know, yeah.” But, again, I’m not one of those people that shows up and like takes a picture and leaves. That’s just not my thing. SV: Yeah. RJ: I don’t do that. Anyway. Anything else? SV: No. Thank you so much for your time. RJ: Do you feel like you know me now? SV: I do! RJ: Okay, good. SV: I appreciate you spending some time— RJ: Yeah. SV: —talking with us today. And I think this is going to be really valuable to our students and researchers in the future. So, thank you. RJ: Well, again, you know our city has come such a long way. And we really do have a lot to be proud of. And I really do believe that people that live here and I hear it time and time again, showing up at their house and they’re like “I love it here.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: “I love this city. I really wouldn’t live anywhere else.” And, you know, even when they’re upset about things, they still don’t want to leave. They still are very happy. They’re like “But, it’s better than—” You know, blah, blah, blah. Or where else. So, I think, you know, we’ve built a great place. My first house was over behind Fire Station No. 2. (points in front and to the left Transcribed by Melissa Martin 34 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 with her left hand) And now I live over off of La Moree. (points behind her right shoulder with her right hand) So, I’ve had three houses over here. So, I’ve owned four houses in the city. SV: Nice. RJ: I’m definitely not leaving. SV: Yeah. RJ: I love it here. SV: Well, thank you, again. I appreciate everything. RJ: Of course, yeah. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 35 2023-12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jones, Rebecca. Interview transcript, April 12. 2023. Description An account of the resource Mayor Rebecca Jones has been involved in local governance of San Marcos, California since 2005, when she served on the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force until 2007. Jones served on City Council from 2007 to 2018, winning re-election three times. Jones also served as Vice Mayor from 2012-2018, and was elected as Mayor in 2018 and re-elected in 2022. In addition to her role as Mayor, Jones represents San Marcos on the San Diego Association of Governments (SANDAG) Board of Directors and on the SANDAG executive committee and regional planning committee. Jones also sits on the Countywide Redevelopment Successor Agency Oversight Board. In her oral history, Jones discusses the structure of San Marcos's local government and how it interacts with the San Diego County government. Jones recalls her foray into politics and recounts previous elections as well as her service on the San Marcos Creek Task Force. Jones also offers her perspective on public transit, car transit, bike transit, and microtransit, development in San Marcos, and how the she and city navigated the COVID-19 pandemic. Jones delves into her experience as a woman in politics, and her place as San Marcos's first woman mayor, and offers advice to women interested in a political career. Jones also discusses her podcast, cooking, self-care, and the Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rebecca Jones Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Economic aspects COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Government policy Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos San Diego Association of Governments Women in politics Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Rebecca Jones License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12_transcript Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience