3 10 89 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a9584fdc97e42f64b69b7f158055847a.pdf fc499ddb820fad05b30fef396a378b89 PDF Text Text Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Martin Leyva as part of the California State University San Marcos Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Today is Thursday, October 27th, 2022, and the interview is taking place at the University Library at Cal State San Marcos. Martin, thank you so much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about the work that you do, and I was wondering if you can speak to your roles at Cal State as well as Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges. Martin Leyva: Yeah. so currently I'm the program coordinator for Project Rebound here at Cal State San Marcos. Project Rebound started three years ago as a program that supports formerly incarcerated students. I'm also a lecturer within the Sociology [department] Criminology and Justice Studies [program]. And my work primarily is around formerly incarcerated students. It includes Palomar College's Transitions Program that started in 2016, 2017? 2017, and I worked there, also a professor of sociology there, as well as the support person for Transitions students. And same thing at MiraCosta, [unclear] teaches sociology, lecture and sociology there, as well as work with their Transitions students, so formerly incarcerated students. And the cool thing is now they're Rising Scholars, which is the Chancellor's, California Chancellor's Office support for formerly incarcerated folks within the community college. So that's what I do. Visintainer: What does that support look like from the -- you said the Chancellor's Office? Leyva: Yeah, so well, there's two parts. One, Project Rebound also gets support from the Chancellor's office to have programs in the CSU, provides financial support for formerly incarcerated folks. And that's the same thing at the community college with Rising Scholars Network is financial support and professional development for formerly incarcerated students all supported by the Chancellor's office. And that's all new initiatives that just happened in the last couple years. Rising Scholars just happened this past year, funding to community colleges, which is a big help, a huge help. Visintainer: How did Rising Scholars come to be? Leyva: Rising-- I mean Rising Scholars came to be because they saw the need. They saw like a lot of community colleges starting to build up and amplify their services to incarcerated and formally incarcerated students. I love the work. I started doing this work back in 2007 when I came home from prison. Started community college and you know, it's just, I don't know. It wasn't -- there wasn't a lot of support back in 2007 for formerly incarcerated folks and building that program and other programs that got built around existing programs and what we were doing at Santa Barbara City College, last 15 years is just more and more community colleges throughout the state started doing this work. Project rebound, expanded from San Francisco State on to thirteen other campuses. The UC [University of California] system started creating Underground Scholars that supported you know, Underground Scholars first started in Berkeley, and it had started expanding to the UCs. And I think the state of California just saw like, there was a movement and momentum around laws and policies and procedures that supported -- they Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 1 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 needed to support formerly incarcerated students, because a lot were coming home and a lot were going to college. And it's been nothing but positivity, you know, I mean, the more they realize, the more degrees we get, the less the likelihood of us going back to prison drops significantly. And they started to fund them. So, it's been so beautiful to watch. Visintainer: Yeah. For sure. What you mentioned the that there's financial support and professional development that's provided and what does that look like? Leyva: So, professional development… someone like myself who's been to prison, who's got a record it's really hard, especially in areas like this state, right? To get a job with felonies on your record or having an extensive background. But a lot of these programs, they're actually encouraging for institutions to hire people with lived experience. And so it opens, the professional development opens up the doors to people like myself to be able to come work for -- you know, it's interesting because at one point, how much distrust, and I dunno what the word is, distrust. And just like I was property of the state for a long time. <Affirmative> [Be]cause property of the county from county probation to the state of California being in prison and on parole, you’re property of the state, and then to suddenly go to work for the state, it's kind of an interesting trajectory. But the professional development is they're encouraging institutions to hire formerly incarcerated folks to lead the charge to work with formerly incarcerated students. And I think that, that, I could see myself in admin work now. I could see myself as, you know, someday becoming like a dean of a department or… and that was something I never thought as a formerly incarcerated individual that I'd ever see myself at that level. And I think that that through Project Rebound, I'm able to see myself as, “Wow, I can actually do this.” And that's the part of the professional development, because if I was to leave here, I'm building the skills it takes to continue this work in other academic institutions or nonprofits or, you know what I mean, other places. And I think that there's a lot of skills that's being built working for the university. So-Visintainer: So it's skill building its opening doors with state government also, I assume with private organizations. Leyva: Yeah. I mean, again, the nonprofit sector. A lot of organizations that are taking on issues around incarceration, around formerly incarcerated, around reentry you know, there are big nonprofits too. And you know, this is the professional development that if I was to leave the university, which I don't foresee me leaving the university anytime soon. You know, I got skills to be able to apply for these jobs that I would've never had. Right? And I'd be taking leadership or taking mentorship from some of our leadership here. I'm really understanding what it is to maybe someday lead an organization, right? And yeah, so the nonprofit sector even, I don't know, I don't ever foresee, like me going back to the prison system to work. But if, you know, job came up and it was, you know, proactive in helping people get out of prison, finding resources, I would take a job back into the, you know well not back into, but go back to the prison system to work to make sure that incarcerated folks had an easier time transitioning from prison to society, right? And so, I think those skills are being developed here. There's a lot of sectors that I can see myself working in. Yeah. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 2 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 So you're a lecturer. You have you have a hand in three different colleges, programs with helping formally incarcerated individuals with their college experiences. So you're very busy. Leyva: Yeah. <laughs> Visintainer: What does, what does like a typical day of work look like for you? Leyva: A typical day of work… it depends on the semester, but it is, it's a typical day is, you know, get up, get ready for work, you take care of your household things, show up to university, check in, do your emails, support students, check in on students. Prepare for meetings, prepare agendas for meetings attend a lot of meetings. <Laugh> There's a lot of meetings in the university. And it's in, it's also preparing for class. And I don't prepare for class. You know, that's usually after hours or before work. And then, you know, different schedules, different colleges, different days. You know Monday, Wednesday for instance, I'm at MiraCosta teaching formerly incarcerated folks, sociology intro class. So, you know, the typical lecture here's the information, the grading, the mentoring of students. Tuesday, Thursday, I'm doing the same thing for Palomar College. And then quite honestly, I mean I stay busy, so I go home and I'm prepared a little food, hang out with the dog, and then all of a sudden you're—[be]cause I'm also in a doctoral program right now. So gotta do research, gotta write. It's a very <laugh> now that I say that out loud, it's super busy. But you know, I think that I also see the importance all of it, right? I see the opportunity that has been placed in front of me. And I know that there's a good benefit to it all right? I think it's also… I stay busy as a formerly incarcerated individual. I know a lot of formerly incarcerated individuals are watching me and they see me and they could see them-- They could see their lives changing too. And I think that that's the super important part is that the mentoring that I've gotten, I got to give it away, right? And so that's a typical day is just, you know, Monday through Friday and on weekends, hopefully get a little downtime and hang out a little bit, if not, you know, I'm sitting there researching, writing, and grading and— Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Wouldn't trade my life for anything. Cause I think I've seen the worst of worst and I don't wanna see that anymore. And I think I can do something about that if I continue to do what I do. So… Visintainer: So you mentioned that you-- part of your day is supporting students and checking in with students. And I imagine, and I'm making a bit of an assumption here, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that there's a significant amount of emotional labor that goes into your work. What, I guess my question is what is the emotional labor that goes into assisting students with their transition to college life? Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 3 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: Yeah, there's a lot of emotional labor attached to it. [Be]cause it's not just formally incarcerated students here, when I teach here at the university, I'm teaching sociology to undergraduate students from all walks of life. And but when it comes to students in general, I think a lot of students still, especially at the community college, working with them, they struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. A lot of less, you know, they don't have the best self-esteem or self-value. A lot of 'em can't believe that they can actually make it. And you know, you want to support them as much as you can, you know, encourage them. Words of encouragement, sharing, you know, even the tutoring part, which is second nature to me: this is how you write a paper. This is what you should think about with research. Like, that's, that's like second nature to me now. But I also remember what it was like to be a student coming outta prison and going through education, which I'm still doing now. I've built so many skills and other skills I give away. But there's a lot of times where I think the emotional, real emotional labor comes is when students don't succeed. Right. We still have a lot of students that deal with the barriers, you know the getting a job, the family unification, addiction, alcoholism, even students that still deal with, you know, family trauma, neighborhood trauma, like gangs and stuff, right? And you, a lot of times I tell students, you, especially coming from that background, I tell students, you gotta be careful having one foot in your trauma and one foot in education, cause one of them's gonna win. And we try our best to have education heal that trauma, but a lot of times we see students go back to the old ways and that, you know, it's a little emotional taxing. I just shared in a discussion I had today that you can't change the person who's not ready to change, but what you can do is just plant the seeds that help them change, you know, and keep an open door. But there is, I find myself, this is actually a really good question cause I find myself at night when I lay down, my brain will tell me what to do next because I'll think about that student that still struggles and that's emotional. Like I carry that with me. And I think it's also a motivator to be like, “Okay, here's what I can do different. Here's who I can reach out to.” This work is not just me. It is a huge community around. And there's a lot of emotional labor with that, you know, And again, just students that you know, I had mentors believe in me before I believed in myself. And there's still areas where I don't believe in myself where I still have people believing in me. And that's the thing, like I always tell students, Don't worry, you might not believe in yourself now, but I believe in you. You can do this. You might be looking through distorted eyes, but I could see the clear picture, you know, and it's a matter of them just trusting you. We also deal with the population that doesn't trust very well. You know what I mean? And so that can be emotionally taxing. It can be. And but again, we show up, we role model. And eventually the more you show up, the more they show up because they, you know, you're role modeling what you want them to do. And that's, that's super important. So. Visintainer: Is, is that the key to building trust or are there other things that you do to build that relationship? I assume there's like a feeling out stage that happens and then there's a trust that's built. I guess my question is how do you go about building trust with somebody? Leyva: I think that the students that gravitate towards me also recognize that there's a big similarity. Whether it's like, cause I, I'm very open with students, [I’m] a student in recovery, been clean and sober nineteen years. I'm a student whose, or an individual who has addressed a lot of healing within myself. And I think that when students know where I've come from and know where I'm at, they still see me for where I come from. So I'm an insider for a lot of them, right? And so there's already trust there. But again, it's also to like and I'll say it straight up, “You might not trust me now, but eventually you will.” And it gets to Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 4 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 that point where they're like, you know, you're reliable. You know, they're gonna call, they're gonna email. They don't really email. They'll call or text. And I answer and whatever they need, I say, Here, look, call this person. Go here, go that or come see me. I'll go, I'll meet you. Come to the office, or whatever. And students we rely on each other and they also know we're like-minded. You know I'll never tell a student to do something that I haven't done or not doing. I'll never ask a student to step outta their comfort zone without support. Right. And so they know that they're always gonna be supported and and cared for. They're always gonna be seen. And so, yeah, I think it, it takes a little bit to build trust, but it happens. It happens. And this is also, goes back to that question about professional development, is it's important to bring people into these institutions who actually have the lived experience of the people coming in. Visintainer: Hm-hmm. Leyva: Because we're here trying our best to succeed. And we're showing these folks that are just like us, just at a different level, that they too can be here. And they know that. It's like, there's like this insider trust, this insider knowledge, this insider acceptance that, you know I see them, they see me, and we have each other. We're gonna hold each other accountable. I will hold, I will hold students accountable. Right? And this isn't just formally incarcerated students, which is most of my workers around this has to do with students who are in the classroom here at Cal State San Marcos, who are also like Chicano or Chicana. They come from this marginal background. Maybe they're first generation, actually most of them are first generation. And then they see a professor. Cause I don't look like a typical professor, but they recognize my aesthetics, their language, my dress style. They recognize that as very similar to them. And so then you become those mentors for those students. Right. You know, when they come see you at the office, it's like, “Oh yeah, check out this resource, check out that resource.” And nobody's really sharing with them that knowledge and introducing them to folks on campus that can help support their success. Right. Or their, their trajectory towards success. And the trust gets built and once it's built, it's there, right. And it's also always being there. And I, and I laugh because it's like, I've had students share with me, like, “Every time I call you answer.” I'm like, “Trust me, that's my job. Because I believe in you.” Right. And I want to be there for you. And cause a lot of times we deal with students who understand what disappointment and abandonment looks like. And if they come here and they get the same treatment, they're not really gonna be successful. Or, you know, the retention rates for them are gonna drop and we're not gonna hold onto them. And so I think it's important to have someone like me, someone like Dr. Xuan Santos, some of the other professors on this campus who mirror, you know, Rafael Hernandez. A lot of professors on this campus who come from the backgrounds of our students and students can see themselves in our places. And that's what we want. So it all starts with trust. We have to, they have to build trust first. And we just go from there, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Can you talk about a great success that you had at work with either a student or a policy change? I'm just interested, like, what does a really great day at work look like and feel like? Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 5 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 What's a really great day at work look like? Actually quite a few and, you know, I'll share one. So I had a student, it was my first year actually teaching here. It was I felt like I'd been teaching a really long time, but after I got my master's degree here, and I started, like the following semester, I had a class and a student in this class who was very quiet, very reserved. And he was just kind of like, came out, came up with me after class. He's like, “I've never seen a professor like you.” And then he started to share about him, his upbringing and his family. And right away I gravitated towards like, what this student was sharing and how he can be successful. And it was a little mentor/mentee relationship built. And a great day here is when you get the email says, I decided to go to grad school. I want to apply for this program. Can you help me? And I'm like, yes! And we're, I'm writing a letter for him for grad school. And then he gets, he sends me another letter. I got into grad school. And just that last semester, spring, spring quarter last year, he graduated with a master's degree in social work. Visintainer: Awesome. Leyva: Got a student in my office right now who formally incarcerated. He spent twenty-nine years in prison, came out an older gentleman. I met him when he first came out and he started Palomar to be able to help him. He got two associates degrees, came here, got his bachelor's degree, and he just started his first year of graduate school, right. And it's, I have, there's, so I'm truly-- I feel blessed because I have like, so many little stories. And I say little because they're gonna continue to grow, because these individuals are also gonna guide the next generation of students coming in. That helps. I mean that's success to me. And then just being part of, like, when I first started Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College, to watch that program kind of grow into this big thing that policy changes, where finally, politicians are saying we need to fund programs and start programs and to see programs. Community college goes into schools-- community college goes into jails and prisons to teach associates degrees, and to me, success is like knowing that I played a small part in that. Right. And to be able to be an advocate and a voice for people ending life without the possibly of parole for minors who went to prison and playing a small part in that. Now you ask that question, I'm like, ‘cause I never really think about it. I just do the work. Yeah. I just kinda show up and, and everything about, you know, like, what's, what's success to you? I'm like, you know, just show up to work. But to realize now when you say that, [unclear] had even just a small part of all these beautiful things. And as my mentor, Dr. Chris Bickel, he says, he's like, “Man, the work just began for you.” Right. Yeah, I never really even think about it. Just kinda show up to do work. <laughs> And, yeah, I think that's every day too. You get students show up in the office and they get to share, like, “I got an A on this test, thank you!” And I'm like, “Don’t thank me. I didn't do no-- I didn't do the study and I didn't do, I just gave you a couple encouraging words and you showed up, you took the test. It's not me, it's you, right?” And I think that you know, I get at least one piece of good news every day and that's a good thing. So, yeah. Never even thought about that, man. Thanks. Visintainer: <Laughs> Well, you're welcome. Thank you for sharing. Let's see. So, you started the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. Can you talk a little bit about how the Transitions Program there came to be? Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 6 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Yeah, so I got released from prison in 2007. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew was I didn't wanna back to prison. Education was not really on my mind. Change was though, right? Just not going back to jail. Not going back to prison. Not using drugs, not using alcohol, not going back to the neighborhood. I knew that that was what I didn't want. But I lost… because of my record, I lost three jobs in three months. And my niece just had this idea, “Why don't you go to school?” And I went to the, I went to Santa Barbara City College. I was scared. It was the first time I'd really ever felt like I was… you know I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. I didn't feel like I belonged there. I didn't fit in [unclear] scared. My niece was the one who really practically held my hand in my first semester. And I always tell folks: that transition started out of an act of fear because I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. And every time I went to the parole office, I was telling another formerly incarcerated individual. Back then, we were still using the word convict, right. And I'd be like, “Hey, you should come up and check out school.” Selfishly, I wanted him there. Right. And I also saw two individuals I'd always see at the parole office. I saw 'em on campus. And I did really quickly, I recognized I didn't have the ability to ask for help. I didn't have the ability to raise my hand. I read and I was engaged in here, but I wasn't vocal about what I was learning. And these two individuals were Black. They're Black men. And in prison we walk around really fine racial lines. Right. These unwritten rules around race. And so, I at the time I was kind of scared to approach them because of race, but I was still institutionalized. And then really quickly, I said, I want to be here and I know they want to be here. And so I approached them, Tyrone and Malik and I introduced myself to them. We just got to talking about school, classes. Then they also felt the exact same things I was feeling. And next thing you know, we started a little support group. Me, Malik, Tyrone, and then there was a woman that joined and another person that joined another person-- and then we just started this transitions support group that turned into the school EOPS Director at the time, Marsha Wright, I said, “Hey, we need a little spot to meet.” And she's like, “Yeah, I'm gonna get you a room so you can continue the support group.” And that happened so quickly. The summer right after that, we had our very first cohort model of education for formerly incarcerated individuals. And I think the first cohort we had like fourteen formerly incarcerated students. Second, we had like twenty-two, then we had twenty-five, and we had twenty-five every year after that up until Covid, because Covid shut down a lot of the programs. But, you know, the Transitions Program was born and you know, addressing access to college, recruiting resources, you know learning disabilities, like a lot of the departments got involved because they saw a big need. And there this was the small community of Santa Barbara. We have students coming from Ventura, from San Louis Obispo to do the program. And so I think that that sparked the conversation. You know, campuses should address that. It's been such a pleasure and honor to be a part of that. Cause when I moved out here in 2016 to come to school, Cal State San Marcos, that first year we took it to MiraCosta and MiraCosta ran with it for one year. Second year I was here. Palomar. We had approached Palomar. Palomar started their Transition Program, which still both, now both campuses have one. And they're doing such amazing work. Right. And yeah, like I said, you know, it sparked a good movement. It's an honor to be fifteen years removed. I would say I'm fifteen years removed from prison, but I'm fifteen years born in education. Right. And that feels good to be part of that work. Visintainer: Yeah. I have so many follow up questions from what you just said. I'm gonna try and frame 'em in kind of a logical order. Okay. So you, you mentioned that you tried three jobs after getting out of prison. And did you say you were let go from 'em? Yeah. what were the jobs? Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 7 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 My first job was doing construction. My neighbor, I paroled back to my sister's house and the neighbor was, you know, essentially a good guy. His name's Joe. He was doing construction at the time. He said, I can get you a job at this construction company. And I was excited to work. Two things happened with that job. One, it was a big commercial industrial construction company they built, wasn't like building houses. We were building huge buildings. They ran a background check and it took about, you know, twenty days to then to come back. And they came back and this says, it's a lot of liability here. You just got out of prison and so we can't get you the job. The other thing was my parole officer. I was in Santa Barbara County and literally the job site was about three miles outside Ventura County. So, because I left Santa Barbara County into Ventura County, he's like, “You can't have that job.” I'm like, “It's a job though, right?” And so not only did the construction company not continue employing me because there was a lot of liability, parole officer said, “You can't leave the county.” Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: So I lost that job. So then my sister introduced me to temporary work. Right. A temp agency. And I got a job with, great job with, Powell-Peralta working, making skateboards. I thought that was a great job— Visintainer: Cool! Leyva: Loved the skate culture. Right. And it was really cool designs and was learning how to make boards and the temp agency, I was working there. I, you know and after thirty days of working there they said, “Oh, we want to hire you're a good worker. You show up, you do your job. And you're—" They really liked me. And, to go from temp agency to permanent employment, they ran a background check and they also said, “You know, you're just too fresh out. You just gotten out a couple months,” or not even a month maybe a month and a week, month and two weeks or two months, whatever. So then they didn't hire me on. And then I went to go work for janitorial, same temp agency. I was doing janitorial, cleaning buildings at night, nobody in sight, just me and you know, cleaning supplies. And after the same thing, after thirty days, they said, “We really like your work. You're good. Let's hire you on.” And then background check. And so it was, it deflated me pretty quick. Like, it was just exhausting. I just, I just wanted to do well. I wanted to do good and I wanted to make some money for my kids and get back on track, whatever that meant. And that's why when my niece introduced me to school, should I go to school and then I think when I attended, started Santa Barbara City College, my parole officer said, “Well, I'm glad you're in school, but that's not a job.” Right. FAFSA’s not money. And I was like, It's kind of money <laughs>, right? But he's like, “No, you need a job.” And then fairly quickly, I remember talking to my EOP counselor, EOPS counselor and I said, “I need a job.” And she's just like, “Oh, this this thing called federal work study. You should try to get a job on campus.” And I was like, “What's that?” So I explored it. Next thing you know, I'm working for English as a Second Language Department and I was doing administrative assistant work. And I'm like, “How am I do--? I don't even know what I'm doing!” But they gave me an opportunity. City College said, you know, you don't have certain crimes, so we're just gonna hire you. And I was like <surprised gesture> “Hmm.” You know, next thing I know I'm working Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 8 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 in, and I've been working in education since. An interesting thing is, same thing that happened to me back in 2007, trying to get a job is the same thing happening to people now. And this is why, again, this work is so important. We address those issues. We hire students on campuses. So. Visintainer: And you said the construction company said that the insurance liability was too much. And so when formerly incarcerated individuals are coming back and they're getting jobs and they're going through these background checks, I assume that's just a huge barrier. And things like insurance liability come up. How do you address that with students that you're mentoring and how do folks get over that barrier? Leyva: Yeah. Well now, I mean, this is the other thing about doing this work for so long: policy change has happened. Now we have the Fair Chance Act where you give me a job application and it says, “Have you been convicted of a felony?” You don't actually-- you don't have to mark anything down anymore. This allows for your application, at least to maybe go through the second process of an interview. They cannot run a background check on you until they hire you. So I always tell students, “You know what?” ‘Cause some students just don't know, some formerly incarcerated folks just don't know. They see that box and they just don't even-- why is that box still on the application? I don't know. It should be removed from all applications, especially in the state of California. But I tell them, “If you see that box, don't even mark it. Put in all your skills, send me your resume, let's hook up your resume.” Even if somebody doesn't have any real work experience for, you know maybe there's a five-year gap because they've been in prison, there's still skills being built, whether you worked in laundry, worked in the kitchen, did landscaping, did some type of machine shop, there's skills that are being built and we can put that in your resume. And so working with students, and the hard part is working with formerly incarcerated folks, we don't come in contact with all formerly incarcerated folks. So there's still a large portion, a large population of formerly incarcerated individuals who don't get this mentorship. But the ones that do, you know, let's work on your communication. Let's work on interview skills, let's work on all this stuff so that when they're ready to go for that job, they have a little bit of a leg up. Right. And you know, the Fair Chance Act has really given a lot of formerly incarcerated folks the opportunity to get work. Now, is it a livable wage? Probably not, but it's something, right? It's a starting point. But it's still an uphill battle. Cause we have a student currently in Project Rebound right now who is just having a hard time trying to find a job with a decent wage and attend school full time. And thinking about, you know, doing something different like truck driving school until you can save some money. There's still a lot of barriers. And as much mentorship and guidance we can give, there's still certain jobs that say, “Yeah, we wanna hire 'em.” And then as soon as they find that there is a criminal background, you know, just like pull the blanket out or pull the carpet out from underneath you and you feel like you're stage one again. Right. And so it's hard. That's the other-- that's the emotional labor that we were talking about earlier. It's like, you know, I feel like I've reached a place in my career where I feel okay, but it's hard to be here knowing that there's so many other folks that still don't feel that yet. And it's both emotionally taxing, but also I feel grateful too because it's like, I understand that I've been in those shoes before and it's like, just keep showing up for them and they'll be okay. And telling them, show for yourself. You know, show for yourself. So, Yeah. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 9 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Yeah. I have a question, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly. I'm gonna let it gestate as we continue talking. Cause I'm not entirely sure what I want to ask, if that makes sense. There's something there if that makes sense. Leyva: Yeah. It makes total sense to me. <laughs> Visintainer: Okay. So let's see. So let's circle back then to the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. And we've talked a little bit about how that came to be. That was-- it was really interesting. And I guess something that you mentioned there was a cohort that started and it was a smaller cohort, and then it grew as the years go on. And I was curious about how that communication starts. When before you have a program and you know that there are formerly incarcerated students on your campus, how do you get the word out about a program to help them? Leyva: It was really grassroots. So I'll start from the very-- like me and Tyrone, Malik, Christina, the number of folks in the very beginning, we would sit at this little bench on campus, right? And we would meet each other there in the morning. We'd talk about school, talk about tutoring, talk about resources. We’d support each other. But when you see a group of formerly incarcerated people or people that <airquote gesture> look formally incarcerated, the cops are also looking, right? You can see campus security, like, you know, what’s this group of people doing here? Right? And I've been asked too, when the early days by campus security or can I help you? Are you a student here? I'm like, Yeah, I'm a student here. And they're like, “Can I see your ID?” And I'm like, at the time I'm like, I'm on parole. I'm like, “Yes, you can see my ID.” Technically they had no right to do that right. I didn't know that. So I knew that there was like this surveillance aspect that was happening to us. And so that's why I approached the school, not to start a program, but to, “Hey, can you give us a safe place to meet?” Here's this group of people. We're all formerly incarcerated, We're all here. And it was like, yeah. So that's, that's that entry to the, to the dialogue as we're here and we need a safe place. And I said, you know, the campus security is always like looking at us or questioning one of us when we're coming into the college. And so the people that I was talking to were like, “Oh, that's not right. They shouldn't do that.” Right. And they help us help ourselves by saying, If they ask you that, you don't have to answer any questions. You can actually call me or whatever. Right. They were really supportive. But then you realize when you start asking more and more formally incarcerated people to come to school, that something needs to happen. And the good thing is, is that the school, especially EOPS at that time at Santa Barbara City College, still to this day, their goal is to help marginal students their whole, And they saw the need really quickly, and they said, “You think you can get a program started?” And I was like, I actually know I can get a program started, but what is a program? Right? And they asked me like, “What do you think a program would look like?” I said, “We get a whole classroom for formerly incarcerated folks.” I don't even know what you would teach, but we could all learn together and we can support each other and we can build I don't even know if I knew what the definition of cohort was before that. And then I was told, “You think you can get a cohort going?” And I just said, I didn't know what it was. I was like, “Sure. What is it?” You know what I mean? But, just-- they were really supportive. And then next thing you know, they're talking funding, they're talking, you know, “Oh, we'd like to hire you as a peer advisor to run this program and do this stuff.” And I was, I was just like, “Yes.” Because it was a job. It was being around the Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 10 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 people that made me comfortable, which were four other formerly incarcerated folks. I felt good about what I was doing and I was also doing drug and alcohol treatment or going to school for drug and alcohol treatment at the time so everything we were talking about in class was fitting into this model that was being built. Right. And so I had my teachers, my professors in those classes actually telling me about group process and all this other stuff. It just felt like everything was organic at that moment. And that's how the conversation started. And that's you know, I think me and Malik and Tyrone, we just ran with it, you know, and it was yeah. And that's how the conversation happened. And that's also goes back to professional development because I feel like when they start talking about funding and, you know, writing up a budget and all this stuff, I was like, I have no idea what this means. And here I am just like watching these EOPS counselors and these program coordinators talk about this stuff, and I'm watching them do the work, and I'm like, “Oh, I want to learn this.” It's not something-- not a skill I've ever had or been around. Again, I didn't know it would take me to this place, but I knew that there was some skills being built there. Right. And I think I answered your question. <laughs> Visintainer: Yeah. What is what is EOPS? Leyva: I always get this wrong. Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services. So it's like EOP here, and here it has a different definition, but it's pretty much like EOPS is the program that yeah-- So there's like single mothers, there's you know, marginal students that need extra support. Visintainer: Mmm-hmm Leyva: They're gonna provide the, the support, the resources, the mentorship, the guidance, the tutoring. We have tutoring labs in this department. And our own academic counselors in there too. We were just like, Here's your head plan. And IGETC [Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum; course that California community college students can complete to satisfy general education requirements] and all that other stuff that goes along with, you know, students that are getting ready to transfer. And Transitions fell into the lap of Noel Gomez in the early, his name was Noel Gomez. And we pretty much formulated the program together. He was working at administration. We had the students do the work. We started collaborating. He still runs to this day. He runs the Transitions Program. And he is the EOPS director now too, or interim director, I think. Visintainer: Okay. Leyva: So he stayed in the same field doing the same work. And it's just it's cool to still have those ties, those connections and still watching him do such beautiful work and be a mentor to me, you know, So. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 11 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: So you mentioned that the college gave you a meeting space. And then… and then you get your first kind of cohort together. What was the-- can you talk about the first meeting that you had? Leyva: With the school or with the students? Visintainer: With the students? Leyva: <laughs> Yeah. ‘Cause that was interesting because they said, “You can start your own program, or you can start this program. Can you get students?” And I said, “Yes.” The first meeting was really interesting because we had a small group of students who had already started community college who were helping. But I remember just like they're like, “Just make a flyer.” And I had no idea I can make a really fancy flyer now. Back then I said I think I even said “Transitions Program.” Program-- ex-convicts I think was written on the flyers. Very unethical or very, like, these are not the language we're using anymore. But I had the, the email and the phone number to call. I remember making-- so funny because I made a Word document and I put the information on the top and then a copy and paste and put it below and then printed 'em out and then cut 'em in half. Like this, this is like my ideal of making flyers, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I remember, like my first conversation with students or potential students is every time I was at the parole office, I'd show up like, “Hey man, you should try to go to school where, you know, we got this program going off in school.” Most people were like, uninterested or like, no, I remember even seeing one guy, he's like, “Oh, yeah, I'll check it out.” And then he crumbled it up and threw it away. Right. But I'd show up to the courthouse and I'd see folks walking out of the court and I'd be like, you know, “Hey, you should try coming to school, try going to school.” I'd put flyers in the sober living homes, or I'd go to sober living homes and hand out flyers or and so it was, it was that conversation. It wasn't just me. It was me and Malik and Tyrone. And even in our neighborhoods where we'd know people who were our friends that are formerly incarcerated, it'd be like, “Hey, you should try home to school.” And we already knew that they were kind of tired of the old lifestyle too so they were like, “Yeah, I'll try it out.” And it just quickly-- that was the first meetings. That was the first conversations about going to school. And I also knew that when they did come up to school, that I would have to show 'em, this is where the-- this is how you feel like application. This is where you do your FAFSA [Free Application for Federal Aid]. This is, you know, this is a financial aid, academic counseling or academic advising or, everything my niece showed me, I showed them. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 12 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And everything I wanted to know, I was asking EOPS counselors and director, you know, “What do I do if a student asked about a job?” And they're like, “Oh, go to Human Resources. See what jobs are available on campus, make sure they have federal work study.” So I learned it all pretty quickly. And that was the conversations with students. Cause I'm like, “Look, we can you get a job up here, you can do, you can get food up here.” They were, you know, there's you know, there's-- I have a learning disability, so I was a part of the DSS, the Disabled Students Program. And I was like, “Look, if you got learning disabilities,” and you know trying to break that stigma too right away. Right. So it's all about gathering resources. And every time I've met with a group of students, potential students, or individually, it was like all this information that I was giving 'em. Right. So it was quickly getting the buy in, but I also felt really good about what I was doing. Yeah. You know, and that it felt good to be like, “Yeah, okay, I'll do it. I'll sign up.” And then you just meet 'em at the campus and you're filling out the application. Just at that time, it was just one finger typing too. Cause I didn't know how to type either, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I, you know, I just, it just felt good. And they did, there was a lot of, still to this day, people come into college and this community college, or even come to the university, there's that imposter syndrome. “I can't do it.” And it’s just like, “Yes you can. Yes you can.” And you know, it's still, yeah. That was the first conversation. And it's-- and it feels like it still happens to this day. Right. Even though we got somewhat of a formula, we have great people, great resources. It feels like those first conversations happen all the time. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And which even though a lot of things have changed, the individual self hasn’t. “I don't believe in myself, I can't do it.” And it's like, “Yes, you can. Yes you can.” It feels like 2007 and 2022, those conversations are still the same. Right. So Yeah. It's conversations happen on a regular, so. Visintainer: You've talked to a couple times about Imposter Syndrome and that's like, so rampant in academia. Leyva: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 13 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: And then you throw students that are maybe not familiar with an academic environment into the mix, and you add all these barriers, these like bureaucratic and logistical barriers, like university campuses are not necessarily easy places to navigate. Especially for folks that aren't familiar with them. So how did you go about addressing and facilitating students to be successful? Navigating the bureaucracy? Leyva: You just show up <laughs>, you know what I mean? You just show up. You don't wanna show up or you feel you're gonna get push back or you feel like you don't belong. I mean, there's so many feelings even now. I mean, I still deal with that now and my role in administration and I love this campus because it's been very supportive of the programs, of me, of our students. It’s a great community. Even Palomar, MiraCosta is very open. But you just show up. You just, you just show up. And I think for me, and I think also too, for a lot of our students, we know it's waiting for us if we don't show up, you know. We know what the other side of this looks like. The gangs, the drugs, the alcohol, the jails, the prisons. And that's not for all, all of us, right? There's not drugs and alcohol with everybody. But we understand what's on the other side. If we're not doing this, what else do we have? Right? And so we just show up and it feels good to actually do this work. And when that imposter syndrome or you know, that belief in self isn't there, or our value is low, self-esteem is low, we still just show up. You know, we show up. And I, you know, I think I've seen people show up and I'm like, “God, I have to do that.” Cause I get in my own head. And I know that same thing when I show up, other people show up and it's like we're there. Right. You just show up and the bureaucracy is the bureaucracy, it's gonna be there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: When I'm getting pushback, not the funding or, “You can't do that program,” or you can't, you know, it's like I always tell folks we've heard no so many times their life is here. No. Again, it's not gonna hurt us, but we're still gonna show up, you know? And I think that we've had a lot of doors closed our faces or a lot of denials for jobs or resources. And it happens with formerly incarcerated folks it happens and it's gonna, it's gonna happen even more, but we're still gonna show up. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And we're still gonna show that we can do the work. We're gonna do the work. And statistically thinking or talking that's like all incarcerated people in the United States, 95% of people are coming home someday. And that always is one of those driving things to say, like, coming home to what? Let's create something so that when they do come home, there's resources in the community. There's resources in academia, there's resources that're gonna help their mental health, their PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder], their you know, and we have to, we have to build those really soft landings for folks to come Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 14 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 home and have a fighting chance to make it in society. You know? And I think that we live within a system that still, even though we see a lot of positivity and we're going in the right direction, there's still a lot of barriers. There's still a lot of doubt. There's still an industrial complex in the prison that relies on our labor, relies on our, the exploitation of who we are. There's still laws and policies and politicians that say, “Well, we can create these laws and policies to continue funneling people into the prison system.” It still exists. And it's-- I mean, we still have the thirteenth Amendment <laughs>, you know, we're still combating just the thirteenth amendment alone, let alone all these local laws and policies that just flood our jails and prisons. We just show up. We continue to do the work, and we continue to role model. We continue to, to, you know, I love watching people like you know, Frankie Guzman up in Oakland who's you know, a formerly incarcerated lawyer who's a policy lawyer, you know James Binnall from Long Beach, he's a professor, Dr. James Binnall, who-- he's a formerly incarcerated lawyer, he did his LSATs [Law School Admission Test] in prison, and now he's a professor and he does a lot of policy work. And it's like folks like that; they're inspiring. You know what I mean? They're inspiring. It's like, you know, we-- again, they show up. I show up, they’re motivation for me. And I can just rattle off a bunch of names of people who are formerly incarcerated who’re serious allies for this population. And they want to, they want to do, they wanna do great work. Or they do great work. And it's just like that, that encourages me to continue doing the best work I can. Visintainer: Yeah. It sounds like tenacity then is a really big ingredient to success? Leyva: Yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some other characteristics or expand upon that if you want, but I was just curious, like, what are the characteristics that you feel are really important to build, uh, for folks to build when they're getting out of prison? Leyva: I always tell folks this: I say, “Greatest education that you have is your own lived experience.” Right. That we use every time we've had a door shut in our face, every time we've been denied something, every time we've been at the lowest place in our life. Like those, that's the motivator to create change. That right there should be single-handedly the thing we use to create change. So you know, our strength is just who we are. You know, I've seen unfortunate-- some of the-- California Department of Corrections is a hard place to live. Yeah. You know, there's everything from drugs and alcohol and violence and Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 15 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 assault and denial of medical, mental health services, medical services, it's hard. And it's like that right there though is probably one of the greatest teachers we have that builds our character up to be like, “I don't wanna take no for an answer. No, I'm here. I'm gonna do something else.” Right. And I always tell folks, it gives us a reason to fight, a reason to <unintelligible>. And obviously not talking physically, but mentally, emotionally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Politics and, you know, getting involved with like, you know, they should build us up to this place where we feel empowered to create change. We already have it. We've already been to the lowest places that society can send us. Right. And I think that we can only go up from here if we stop colluding with the system that's there. Right. We have to stop colluding with it. Visintainer: Yeah. What, what do you mean by that? Colluding with the system? Leyva: You know, we bump up against it. You know, it's just same thing if you-- when an individual, and I see this happen, and it's disheartening when an individual loses a job or can't get a job and he or she knows that, you know, the informal economy exists, like selling drugs or, you know, hustling for what they need. I respect that. You gotta do what you have to do as a person, as a family person. But we get denied jobs, get denied access to certain resources, and then our only, we can resort back to some drug sales or some criminal activity. We're colluding with them. We're actually saying, “Well you know, you're gonna call me bad or create this level where I can't succeed. I'm gonna do what I have to do.” And we go back to colluding with the system that send us to jail or prison. Stick with it. Stay within the long haul. We're always gonna get what we want. But, and the more we collude with the system, the more we actually allow the system to say, “This is why we need laws and policies. This is why crime rates are the way they are. This is—" And so it's like it's like we have to just really try our best to not collude with that system but change that system. And as insiders, we can change the prison system. We can change the laws around gang injunctions, mandatory minimums, three strikes laws, and all these things that are created through laws and policies. Why can't we become the politicians to change that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Formerly incarcerated people can be politicians. You know, we can actually be [on] school boards, city councils, county supervisors, all the way to the state level, all the way to the federal level. We can be politicians and instead of colluding with this criminality as they used the word, you know, let's just bump Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 16 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 up against the system and change the system. Make it work for all people. So it's fair and just and equitable. And that's what we push. That's what I push, you know? And, you know, and I'm not alone. There's a lot of beautiful people doing great work out there. Men and women, gay, straight, able, disabled. There's a lot of formerly incarcerated people who are doing this work that, you know, we just, yeah. We just put our best foot forward and keep walking. <laughs> Visintainer: I was curious if there was any particular like majors or disciplines that students that you mentor through either Transitions or Project Rebound here if they tend to gravitate towards any specific majors, disciplines in academia? Leyva: Yeah. The biggest one we see across the state, not just here at Cal State San Marcos, across the state, is usually sociology and criminology, right? Because we want to, we come from that. We know that so well and we do that. But also like human services, like counselors, drug and alcohol treatment counselors MSWs [Master’s of Social Work], because we want to, we also wanna help, right? We're very empathetic. Some of the majors they don't gravitate to, which I'm actually excited about at Cal State San Marcos, it's usually like STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] fields. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: We do have four students here at Cal State San Marcos that are in STEM, which is probably the most, because we don't gravitate to it. We gravitate towards how can we create change. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So sociology, criminology, justice studies, MSW, counseling. Those are the main fields. You know, some psychology ‘cause you do-- we're helpers. We want formerly incarcerated folks want to help out another individual. My goal is to get people into political science and other fields to be like, “Let's go to Washington.” You know what I mean? Let's get in those halls. Yeah. And you can do that with sociology and stuff. But those are the main, those are the big disciplines or the big majors that people go into. And that was mine, bachelor's degree in psychology. My master's degree in sociology. And my doctorate will be in education. And that's all because I want to create, understand these systems so well that I could create the change within 'em, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 17 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 And that's formerly incarcerated folks. I got a group of twenty-two formerly incarcerated students at MiraCosta right now. And all of 'em say same thing. I want to help people. So I wanna do sociology. I wanna become a counselor, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And I'm like, “Where's my politicians at though?” You know what I mean? Where's my <laughs>? Where's my—'cause you know, there's also, they understand that, you know, some of 'em say they want to be nurses, but there's no access to nursing if you're formally incarcerated. There's a lot of fields that uh-- actually not a whole lot. Nursing is one. Education is another. ‘Cause a lot of times if you're formally incarcerated, you can't go back in the high schools to teach, can't get your credentials if you're formerly incarcerated, which I think should change. I think we would make great teachers, especially of high school students. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there would be real value in, in having people who are formerly incarcerated in classrooms. Leyva: Yeah. And we see that too, because when I was in Santa Barbara, I was working in the high schools teaching social and emotional intelligence and social justice work through a non-profit. And the high schools over there saw my value. Out here, we could take Project Rebound students and other students we work in, you know, continuation high schools and court, juvenile court community schools, and those schools sees the value of formerly incarcerated students coming into their school, doing the mentorship, doing all that stuff. And there is a lot of value in it, you know, and not just, I mean, you know, we gravitate towards drug and alcohol treatment or counseling because we understand those folks really well. We also understand marginal high school students and middle school students, they say, “Let us in here” because we can actually really change the outcome for a lot of the students, especially our Black and Brown students that get targeted in other places other than the schools; their communities, even their homes. We can actually-- I feel like we can really do a lot of work in that area, but until the policies around hiring formerly incarcerated folks to work in high schools, to work as teachers, to work as nurses, caretakers… The other thing too is we're doing that work in prison. Nurses in prison exist, but some of the main caretakers-- people doing like CNA [Certified Nursing Assistant] work or LVN [Licensed Practical Nurse] work, they're inmates. They're, I don't really want to use the word inmates anymore. They're incarcerated folks doing that type of work. They're caretaking for elders, they’re caretaking for people with terminal illness. They're doing dentistry work. They're being, you know, incarcerated folks are already doing that work. We, they allow us to do it there, but as soon as we step out of the prison, “Oh, you're not allowed to do that work anymore.” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and it's like, we can benefit. We have a big benefit to society if you allow us to do that work. Right. Just like incarcerated firefighters, they're out here fighting some of the biggest fires. We can do it, we can do it while we're in prison, but we come out and we can't join a fire station. And the laws, that's the other thing too. That's another part of where laws have changed. Now formerly incarcerated firefighters can get a job doing forestry fighting now. And that's, you know our next step is let us in the firehouses in the cities, right? Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 18 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So small policy changes, small changes are happening. Visintainer: And how does employment in prison happen? Leyva: Ah, that's a good question. You know, you go to prison and there's a couple ways. One if you're an incarcerated folk like I was, I had to serve eighty-five percent of my sentence. So a lot of resources for somebody already serving that much time. You kind of get put on the back burner. There's also a population of incarcerated folks that go and do, they have to do fifty percent of the time. So they get sentenced to ten years. They only do five. They have to earn that five years. So they put 'em to work right away. And then also if you're, if you're lucky enough to just be like, I got certain skills. ‘Cause they do, they run your resume. “What kind of work have you done? What kind of skills do you have?” And they'll place you if there's jobs available, right? So it all really depends what skills you have, how much time you have. So there's a few defining things that get work. But you know, when you go to prison and you get a job, I was a landscaper in prison and it was a job I landed just because somebody was going home and they made a recommendation saying, “Hey Martin should do this job,” right? So they hired me right away and it was… The pay scale. I think the pay scale recently changed. So they're hiring certain people with certain jobs that actually is a decent wage. But I was making thirteen cents an hour in prison. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And because they had restitution, they were taking fifty-five percent of my thirteen cents to pay back restitution. And so at the end of a month, you get paid once a month. maybe able to buy maybe a jar coffee, <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. Jar of coffee, a couple soups and not a whole lot coming from there, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 19 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: So and there's still a lot of prisons that are still paying their people cause they're still paying folks. Pennies, pennies on the dollar, you know. Visintainer: And is that based out of like some sort of private company using labor? Leyva: Um. Visintainer: Why is there, uh, why is there such a huge disparity between the wages that somebody's being paid when they're incarcerated and somebody that's not incarcerated doing the same work? Leyva: It's just the exploitation of labor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Depending on what you're doing inside prison, what prison, what industry is contracted with the prison because certain, you know, IBM and Levi jeans and, you know, no longer Victoria's Secret, but there's a lot of companies that contract with the prison industry for cheap labor. Right? So it just depends on those contracts. And that's the rise of mass incarceration though, right? You can actually have companies and corporations that on Wall Street, stock market, made in America. You know, you be careful. Chevron and Exxon, they all have a lot of products made in prison. There’re so many companies that use prison labor cause it's cheap and they can say that their product is being made in the USA right? And it sucks. Even like the federal prison system for instance, they have a corporation called UNICOR [Federal Prison Industries] and they make all like military flak jackets and military gear. And yes, they're made in the USA but they're made by cheap labor, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And again, given that we're doing the labor in prison, we're getting the skills, much needed skills, but it doesn't equate to jobs as soon as we leave prison. And I think that's where, you know, I'm glad to be working while I'm in prison, keeping our minds busy staying active, which is good. But you know, you've Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 20 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 got the private prison industry, it's, you know, you got an entire industry that's on Wall Street. People can actually put money in the stock market and just relies on the exploitation of people. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's kind of a gross system that we have <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I've seen the labor, you know, everything from making our license plates to maybe a lot of this furniture that's actually here was built in prison. Our shoes, our clothing items, everything that we have is actually built in prison. So it's like there's an entire industry that relies on our labor, you know? There's another thing: a lot of people don't really understand that, you know? They think that jobs went overseas. Yes. Jobs went over overseas for sure, but jobs also went into the prison system. Jobs that could have been for a lot of people. So we can't blame fully overseas. We blame our prison system and the allowance of written contracts to have this labor be done there. You know? And a lot of people are just, they don't… They're just not well informed about what's really going on. Right. And so yeah. One, I'm glad that was working ‘cause I would drive myself nuts if I wasn't. But it's also like, you know, you’re completely exploiting, you know, my labor. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. When you were a landscaper, excuse me. So you were landscaping like outside of the prison? Leyva: No, it was on the inside. It was on the inside, Yeah. And, you know, it was sure around some of the offices, never was allowed off the grounds in the prison system. But the aesthetics of the prison was important for the face. Right. It has to look good on the outside. The inside was really quite run down, but the outside, the grass was cut nicely. The hedges were trimmed, the flowers were growing on the outside. And that's what you're doing. And trust me, I really enjoyed it ‘cause I like being in the sun. I love gardening. I love plants. I love the work. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 21 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 But, you know, yeah, it was-- I was happy to do the work. I wasn't, you know, especially then I was like, “Oh, I'm cool with this job. I like these thirteen cents an hour,” because I was misinformed. I was uneducated. Soon as I came home, and I knew that there was like some exploitation happening, [unclear] understand it, you know, on the outside I'd be getting paid ten dollars an hour, fifteen dollars an hour, whatever I was doing on the outside. And in here it sucks to get thirteen cents an hour or whatever. But now that I'm in academe, I'm educated, I understand these, how the system allows for this to happen with the thirteenth amendment and all these laws and policies and how I really honestly feel like even in education, how I was targeted as a Brown male, it all makes sense to me when I see the rise of the prison system, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: At one point, crime rate, crime rates are kind of going up right now, but for the longest time, crime rates were dropping. Were on a steady decline, but our prison system kept growing. And it took education for me to really understand what is happening with laws and policy, what is happening with contracts in the prison system, what is happening with our politicians who are, you know, law and order issue. You know, “We need to get crime under control!” I'm like, crime rates are dropping though. Why is our prison population 2.3 million people in the United States if crime rates are dropping now, Covid and everything else. Yeah. Crime rates are, are rising, but they're not at a dangerous level. Right. Where our prison system stays at the same amount of people. You know, we can, I love research <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I love research, right? Visintainer: Yeah. And I don't know if this is necessarily a question, but then there's also, you know, I've been seeing like people talking about New York, the crime rates are not actually rising, but there's this narrative that the crime rates in the city are rising. So you have like Adams, the mayor, you know, running on this like tough on crime cop platform and getting elected. And so, I don't know, I don't know what my question is, but I think there's something there too with, with media narratives being-Leyva: Oh, yeah. I mean that's huge for us. And it's also the time of the year too, right? With, with elections coming up, obviously gonna be this focus on crime and crime in America and all these things. And they're gonna, it's easy for politicians and media to be like, “Well, this crime happened in Chicago, this crime happened in New York, and they could be like all people, right?” It's like, no, that was an incident. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 22 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Right? And it's gonna happen at this time of the year during elections, midterm elections presidential elections. It's gonna, you're gonna hear about how horrible we are, right? And as soon as the elections stop, you'll go, we'll go focus on something else, Right? Monkey Pox or something else, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's always gonna be something to focus on. But right now, crime rates are the thing because of this media. And that's the interesting thing is how we always, I always call this the sandwich effect, right? When you take media and they'll start the conversation with “murderers this, murderers that,” and then they'll have like this middle part of like low-level crimes and criminals, and which is a huge bulk of the percentage of people in prison are crimes that are just like, you know, stealing or property crimes or something that's not dangerous, but it is a crime. So you start off with murderers and murderers and all these violent crimes, which is a very small percentage. And then you talk about this big section of people who are low level crimes and petty criminals, whatever they call 'em. It's a huge percentage of our prison system. And then you end with like rapists and child molesters, people who are misinformed through our media, they hear murderers and then something else, and then they'll end with like murders and rapists, and that's where they lump everybody up. But our major prison population is really people that are like systematically inundated with inequality, lack of access to jobs, lack of access to resources like medical, and they commit crimes that are like informal economies. They're like, you know, petty thief or selling drugs or, you know, something-- that's the bulk of our prison system. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But media more entrepreneurship says murderers, killers and violent crime, and then they end with murder or rapists and child molesters. And that's a very small percentage of our prison population. You know? And but when you, when you start with that and end with this? We're all bad people. Right. And it's not… Yeah, I'm so critical about media <laughs>, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: ‘Cause they, they strategically figured out how to get the vote. You know? And I'm not talking about, I'm not voting for one. It's like, you know, liberal Democrats are one way and conservative Republicans are another. And I kind of feel like, no, there's a lot of in between that we're ignoring you know? There's a lot of great politicians or people who are just silenced by these two big conglomerates. Right. And they're supported by these big media corporations. And they're all-- I would say they're all in it together. Let's just be very critical about them. That's my job as a citizen, as an educator, is let's just be critical about our government, the systems that run our government, the corporations that run our Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 23 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 government. Because if it isn't about the prison system, it's also about lack of education for people. It's also about lack of medical care. It's a lack of good livable wages. You know what I mean? There's so much more if we just remove the prison system, there's so much more to focus on. We just need to be critical about the entire system we're living in. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I think Covid taught me that because we breathe the same air, we should be talking about the same things. Right? <laughs> One person gets sick. We should all think about, we all can get sick too, right? And I think there's an illness with the prison system. It impacts us all. Your tax dollars, my tax dollars. I think there's forty-five percent of people in the United States who have a loved one in prison or who know somebody's been locked up. Some major portion of our population who know somebody's impacted by the prison system. We should all be focusing on it together. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. And we're the largest carcell-. Sorry, I didn't have trouble with this word. Leyva: Carceral. Visintainer: Carceral, Thank you. Leyva: Yeah. <Laughs> Visintainer: Carceral country on earth, aren't we? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I always say it's a, you know, United States is five percent of the world's population, but twenty-five percent of the world's prison population. It's pretty wild. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 24 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and you think, like, you know, China and other countries are bigger than ours, but they, they have less prison system. Right. And it's again, we can get into the exploitation of labor. But-Visintainer: Yeah. And I do want to talk about systems with you, but could we shift for a little bit and talk a little bit about kind of your journey to where you got and then I want to follow up with systems. I got some kind of more big picture questions for you. So I just wanted to ask, where did you grow up? Leyva: Born and raised in Santa Barbara [California]. I always have to name my neighborhood. The west side of Santa Barbara is my home. I love that place. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Don't want to ever want to move back, but I love that place. <laughs> Visintainer: Yeah. What do you love about it? Leyva: It's just a great little community. It's beautiful beaches, mountains family still there. A lot of history there. When I go back, just like cruising certain neighborhoods, certain streets. It's just a lot of-- it's just a beautiful place. Visintainer: Yeah. What did in your childhood, what did your community look like? Leyva: It's interesting you ask that question because growing up my community was just like, it's a beautiful community. A lot of good little restaurants, a lot of good neighbors, a lot of good food, a lot of good communities. But you don't know what you don't know, right? But it was a lot of poverty, a lot of crime, a lot of sadness, a lot of hardships. But you don't really see that when you're in the middle of it. Right. You don't really ever, you don't ever really critique it when you're like, this is my life. Right. So it was, there was a lot of that and a lot of-- there's a lot of beautiful community built around this ugly thing, you know what I mean? Like the crime and the police and, you know, the lack of schools. But if you don't Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 25 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 know what it is, you just, and that's all you know, and you're accepted, right? Yeah. It is beautiful. My family, my mom, my two sisters, and, you know, cousins and community members-- its good people all around. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. What were some of the gathering places? Leyva: The gathering places in my community growing up? The home is always one. That's the best one. But, you know, our, you know, little parks. And for me, I like this question actually, the gathering places. I don't know why the… places like Oak Park and Alameda Park, these places are ringing a bell, but also the corners. Right. thinking one in particular. San Andres and Micheltorena Street, like those were the gathering spots. Those are like—Bath and Ortega Street. You just see the little cornerstore friends and family gathered there, you know? Yeah. Starting trouble or laughing or yelling at each other or something. But yeah, those are-- I like that question. Visintainer: Yeah. What did Oak Park look like? Leyva: Was Oak Park and Ortega Park were the two main parks and I’m thinking Oak Park was just that a lot of oak trees, a lot of barbecue pits what they would call the kiddie pool. Right. The pool that's only like a foot deep and the playground. And on weekends there was the smell of barbecue and beer <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Visintainer: You know, and Ortega Park is still to this day, one of the most beautiful places there in Santa Barbara because there's same thing, the swimming pool, the playground, the basketball courts, the soccer field, and it's just a block wide. It's not even that big of a park. But there's murals, right? That's like kind of Santa Barbara's own Chicano Park. It's just one little area. Okay. But there's murals on the wall and there's growing up I didn't see the, the crime that was happening, the drug you started, I didn't see that stuff because that's just, you're in the mix, right? You're in the, that's just what happens there. Now I can see it differently through different spectacles, but yeah, it was just the same thing. The smell of barbecue and beer and laughing and music, you know what I mean? Visintainer: Did you have a favorite mural or do you have a favorite mural? Leyva: God, I wish I could show you the picture of it. Yes. There's like this Aztec warrior mural and it was just like this side view. A guy named Manuel Unzueta is the muralist and he's from Santa Barbara. He did a lot of the murals there. But yeah, it was like this Aztec god kind of person. And back then I wasn't really Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 26 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 like really into the history yet as I am now, but I remember going back to Ortega Park after being educated after coming home from prison and be like this, like now there's like a connection, not only that's my childhood, but also like academically thinking like I understand the history of where we come from, right? Yeah. So but also I love bright colors and love like images, so yeah. That was, that was one that always stood out. Visintainer: You talked about barbecue a couple times. What kind of barbecue? What did folks like to barbecue? Leyva: Oh, you know, tri-tip and chicken! Santa Barbara, it was Santa Maria nearby. Santa Maria is the birthplace of tri-tip. And so this tri-tip and chicken and corn wrapped in foil, <laughs> put on the barbecue pit. And that was, that was the thing. Visintainer: That sounds good. Leyva: Yeah. <laughs> Visintainer: Who were your childhood role models? Leyva: Um. My childhood role models. Quote unquote the “bad guys.” I didn't see 'em as bad guys, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's funny because uh, just had this conversation earlier today, but you know, family members, like my uncles, you know, they were the cool guys who dressed nice, who got the handshakes, who got the respect in the neighborhood. And again, growing up in that, you don't see or think about the negativity that's going on. But they were my role models because they were the ones who like would give me a hug and tell me they loved me or tell me they see me or buy me a coke or an ice cream. Right? And you look up to that, right? Not understanding that the money that they used to buy that stuff for people in the neighborhood, like little kids in the neighborhood also came from drug sales. You don't see that, or nor do you even think about that. You just know that these role models were like the men who were, you know, the men who actually recognized me and saw me. The women who would always be like, “Are you doing your homework?” And, you know, and the women weren't particularly like into a positive lifestyle either, but they would use terms like mijo or mi rey, right? “My little king.” And they would always say, you know, go to school and do good. And the kid, the men would be like, “Don't get into trouble.” You know what I mean? You know, but if you got in trouble, they'd be like, “Good job.” You know what I mean? <laughter> So it’s like one on one hand, don't get in trouble. Second hand like, Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 27 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 alright, good job! You know what I mean? So yeah. They were, they were the ones that actually saw us for who we were. Right. And I love having that experience in life and now being able to see it from a different vantage point. Right. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: They were just doing the best they can with what they had. Right. And that they had a-- you know, my mom and my stepdad and my uncles and all the other men and women in the neighborhood giving me the best they can with their own unresolved trauma. Right. That they did the best they can and that their life was better than what they had when they were kids. And that my life was better than they had it. And that my generation after me, my kids have it better than what I had it. And that's the trajectory of life right, now that I'm able to see it from a vantage point. Absolutely. Love those role models. You know, even though now I'm like, “Ah, you were doing some shady stuff, but I love you for it.” You know what I mean? So, Yeah. Visintainer: What did your stepdad and your mom do? Did they do for a living? Leyva: My mom main job was house cleaning, cleaning hotel rooms or cleaning houses or factory work. And my stepdad was a-- he worked in a nursery and a, he worked in a nursery taking care of plants and also a mechanic at the nursery. That was their main industry. You know, I was, I did the first gen talk today and that was interesting. I'm a first-generation college student. College, school wasn't that important to my family. Work was, you know, they valued work over education. You know and working hard too. I think I got my work ethic from my mom. My mom sometimes especially after my stepdad left, would work, guaranteed two jobs and sometimes if she could three jobs, which wasn't the best for my upbringing pertaining to like a mom I could come home to and do homework with. I never grew up with that. Right? So, you know, I left high school in ninth grade, so prior to going to prison and getting my high school diploma in prison, I was, had a ninth-grade education. And so that's what I felt like when I entered these spaces. I'm like, I've a ninth-grade education ‘cause I don't remember my high school diploma. But, you know, thinking about my mom, I mean, that was, you know, she was, she's a hard worker. She was a hard worker. She retired early because she worked so hard. Right. Medically retired. But yeah, it was uh… good work ethic I'll tell that. Show up to work and were just sick or not, show up <laughs>. I'm like-- When I'm sick. But she's like, “No, you gotta go to work.” I'm like, all right. Going to work sick. But going. Visintainer: Yeah. We come back to tenacity then. Leyva: Yeah. <laughs> Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 28 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Yeah. Can you tell me about the first time that you got in legal trouble? Leyva: Yeah. About fifteen [years old]. I mean, kind of a funny story, but you know, I got in trouble for stealing mopeds. I remember going to court for it and like, “Why are you stealing mopeds?” Or, you know, they didn't ask the question. I just wanted to ride a moped. I didn’t to sell it or try to make money. I was just like, I learned how to hot wire a moped. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And as soon as I did that, every time I saw a little Honda Spree, I pop the top, pop the front cover off and pull the wire and it'd just kick right over. And it was just fun. And you know, I got in trouble for having, I think like three Honda Sprees in my backyard, you know, and got popped and got in trouble and, you know, I'm, you know, committing crimes you know. Visintainer: And how did you learn how to hot wire a moped? Leyva: Once again, observational learning. Yeah. I think I think there's this like misunderstanding how people commit crimes and yeah. Certain people will teach you how to do certain things, but for a majority of people in prison, we just learned by observation. You know, I saw this older guy in my neighborhood and I don't even remember. He's like, “I gotta go!” And he went up to this Honda Spree, he did like the little move. And he just took a little knife out of his pocket and popped it and I saw him take the wires out and jumped on it and kick started it. And just hit the handlebars cause the handlebars had the little lock on it. The lock broke real easy. And he just took off. You know, I was like, “I'm gonna try that.” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and then I saw a Honda Spree and I know stealing ain't nice. I know it's wrong, but at the time you're like, that was so cool. How did you do that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 29 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: I saw a Honda Spree downtown one day and I think it took me a little longer <laughs> to get it going, but as soon as I got it going, there was a rush. Right. And again, I'm not saying it was okay cause it's not. But that rush felt good. Visintaienr: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I saw him, I'm like, “Ah, where'd you get that little, where'd you get that little Honda?” I'm like, “I took it.” He's like, “Oh, let me take it.” And he took it from me. Right. So it's like when you steal a bike in the neighborhood, it becomes a neighborhood bike. Everybody's using the same stolen bike. Right. And yeah. It's just a thing to do right? Through observations. Even like I talk about my addiction cause I was addicted to substances and alcohol. And I say it openly with students. I was addicted to heroin for a long time, and it wasn't like somebody taught me how to do it. It wasn’t… You weren't literally taught how to do it. You just see it happening. And when you see it happening, it just becomes, “I know how to do that,” because you saw somebody else how to unfortunately use drugs, whether intravenously or not, you just learn it by watching. And I think that's how we learn how to say the things we say, dress how we dress, act like we act, respond, how we respond, whether you know, violence was never taught to me, but it's something I grew up watching. Right. I remember everything from like learning how to express sadness. I remember my stepdad would be like mad, like sad and then he would just like hit the door with his hand. And when you're a little kid and you're watching that or he'd say like, I'm so mad. And then he hit something. If I'm mad too, I gotta hit something. Right. And it's everything with committing crimes to expressing feelings and emotions. It's all observational. Visintainer: Yeah. So, is there an analog to the work you do now? Providing-Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Providing, modeling for people that are learning? Leyva: Yeah. Emotional intelligence and emotional management. When we feel something, you know, it's me. I've been clean and sober nineteen years and when my mom died four years ago, because I trained my mind that when I feel a big emotion, my mind goes automatically to the reaction, which is the drug use the violence or whatever. Even though my mind thought about it, I've taught myself that there's no visceral reaction. My biological response doesn't have to, I don't have to do these things. I don't have to act out in these ways. And so when I work with individuals around emotional management and understanding that we have no control over our emotions, you're gonna feel something, you're gonna feel it! But how we respond to it, the emotional management part is how we should focus on. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 30 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Mindfulness, meditation, taking a deep breath, taking a step back. I always say, “Pretend you're the outsider looking in.” Take a step back and take a look at what is gonna hap-- what you know is gonna happen or what you feel is gonna happen and respond from that place rather than inside of it. And I'm also big on dismantling patriarchy ‘cause I feel like patriarchy is the number one pusher of so many systemic issues of oppression. Even the war in Ukraine is patriarchy. Right. Like patriarchy is very dangerous. And as somebody who is raised in it and colluded with it, they've created it so well… I want my kids to have a good understanding of who their father is. Not in that violent state, but in this healed or healing individual who can talk about feelings and emotions, who can allow myself to cry without feeling something I couldn't, I could wear a pink shirt and pink socks without somebody saying something to me because I'm very comfortable with who I am. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And I think that working with individuals that becomes my educational piece, is we have to really learn who we are and how we respond. Because how we respond sometimes takes us to the places we are, the jails and the prisons, our addictions, our own self harm, our own self destruction. I love these places, these places. And education has given me this understanding of who society constructs me to be versus who I want to be. And a lot of times we follow the construction because they make it glorious or cool or like, this is all I have. It's not all we have, we're meant to be other people. We're meant to be who we really are. Empathetically, empathetic, caring, understanding, loving, warm, you know. So yeah. I teach a lot of emotional intelligence to our students. ‘Cause I think we need to be there for our families and our communities. And we can't do that if we're angry or mad or not-- being angry or mad is okay. But how we respond to it is different. Right. We shouldn't have to respond in negative ways, you know? And so far so good. I've been doing this work for a long time. I see a lot of change. So, you know. Visintainer: That is beautiful statement. Thank you. Um, I don't know, I think a lot about, you know, growing up in patriarchy and masculinity and how harmful, like, I didn't even know how harmful it was, you know? Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: And yeah, I don't know. I'm glad you're doing the work at dismantling it, I guess is all I have to say about it. Leyva: <laughs> Yeah. No, it's an uphill battle sometimes, right? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 31 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Yeah. Leyva: But I always say, you know what, in football they always say it's a ten-yard fight. Just go ten yards and start again. Go ten yards, start again. And but I feel it's an obligation too, it's an obligation. And I want to, if there's one way to shut down the prison system is really help people stop going. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know. That's the goal. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you had three mopeds in your backyard. So how did you, how did you get caught? Leyva: Just being reckless, right. Driving without, you know, back then you didn't need a helmet. But you know, driving through my neighborhood and just crossing stop signs and cops, you know, or like, I remember one time I was driving. And if you remember the Honda Sprees, they had like this little section where you put your little feet right? And I was driving and had one guy standing right in front of me. So I was leaning to the side to look where I was going. And then I had another friend of mine sitting behind me. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So, three people on a small Honda Spree, cop saw us and said, pull ‘em over. Right. And as soon as I stopped, my two friends just took off. And I'm like, “Well, here I am.” Right. And so obviously the cop could see the wires on hanging on the side and, you know, it's so funny to think back at the little things I used to do and be like, how did I think I can get away with this stuff? You know? And that's how you got caught. Just being reckless and I guess funny at the same time. But, you know, the, the consequence isn't something to laugh at, right. <Laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know. So-- Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 32 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Did you go to juvenile detention? Leyva: Went to juvenile detention. Juvenile court. Mom was always working. So my sister, remember my sister going to court with me, they were both older than me. Back then it really was a slap on the wrist, a little juvenile detention you know, a little probation check-in here and there. You know, the more I got in trouble... I dunno life moved really fast ‘cause actually, you know, I'm eighteen and going in and out the county jail again for, you know, driving cars without licenses for DUIs [Driving Under the Influence], for stolen-- possession of stolen property. Not like, and not saying that DUIs is not a big deal, it's a huge deal But you know, nothing really big or major. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Levya: Right. No violence. And sure there was violence happening, it just never got caught doing it. Right? And I always tell folks like, I've been really lucky not to go away for the crimes that I have committed. Not to say I should have gotten away with it, but I did. And it's like, also it's another fuel that adds, it's more fuel to be like, “I need to do this work because I know that there's a lot of people doing things they wish they weren't doing and they're just not getting caught for it.” It's like, let's give them another avenue to go down. You know? So but I think my life led to the point where, you know, I got in trouble for selling guns or having, you know, illegal guns and, you know, this stuff was again, all just part of a lifestyle that I was living that, we don't critique it. We're just in the middle of it. All the way to my last, my last prison term which was a robbery, you know, walked into a place and demanded some money, not even demanded it. Just say, “Hey, I need some money.” I knew, I actually knew I would get caught on my last crime. I knew I would get caught. I didn't run, didn't try to pretend it wouldn't happen. Committed a robbery in 2004 and knew I would get in trouble. And I think it was my, I think it was my cry for help because I was so embedded within my addiction and-- no, I felt like I didn't have another way out. I didn't know how to ask for help. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And so when I think about my crimes as a juvenile, just the trajectory of how just, you know, petty crimes to maybe not so petty crimes, but gun sales to more violations of probation to led to, you know, a robbery that wasn't an armed property, I didn't have a knife or gun. But still it was a pretty significant robbery. I think that that time going to prison was my cry for help. You know, I just didn't want to do drugs and alcohol or live this life where I just felt really like in a sense like I wanted to die. Right. I talk to a lot of folks who were formerly incarcerated who say, you know, “I've reached that point where I didn't know what else to do. I'd rather go to prison than have to deal with the struggle out here, the suffering that happens out here.” And I think our prison is full of individuals who feel like they had no other Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 33 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 option. You know, because a lot of times when we grow up in this very patriarchal environment, especially for men to say, “I'm sad, I need help. I wanna change, but I don't know how,” because that's a sign of weakness to say like, “I feel emotional.” And for other men or even women to say, oh, they use these negative connotations. Like stop being-- you know, they relate it to words that are used for women and they just, we don't wanna feel that. So what do we do? Go out, commit a crime, go to prison. And I know I've had conversations with other men in prison and be like, “I just, I'd rather be here than out there.” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I know men who've gone… who are in prison and they, their date, their release date's coming up and they automatically like go after another inmate or they go after a guard and they commit another crime so they can stay longer. I never understood that when I was in prison and then I come home and I start doing this work and I'm like this place is harsh on us. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and there was even a time when I first left prison where I felt like [unclear] I can't get a job. I keep losing this job. You know, I'm sleeping on my sister's couch. You know, my daughter wants to hang out but I don't have money in my pocket. I was like, “Fuck I'd rather be back in prison than have to deal with this stuff.” Right. And I, you know, that was me in 2007 and that's the individual I could talk to right now. Who just got out. It's like. It's easier to live in prison than it is there. You know, you got strict rules and boundaries. But we understand that life. And when I committed my crime in 2004 and I committed the robbery, that was a cry for help. And I'll never say that prison saved my life because it didn't. But it gave me an understanding. Finally I was ready to do the work. You know, something happened all of a sudden where I'm like, I get out and I'm gonna try my best to stay out and I'm gonna be humble. And, you know, if I turned away a lot of friends when I came home from prison because as soon as I got out my neighborhood was like, “Hey, you want to hang out? You wanna do some—Let’s go partying!” For me to say no to the people that I've never said no to was the hardest thing. Right. And that was me facing patriarchy right on. I had a friend when I came home from prison, literally the day after, I hadn't heard from him the entire time I was a prison. He offered me a thousand dollars and an ounce of, of methamphetamines. Right. This was his way to show love his way. He wasn't trying to get me in trouble. He wasn't trying to set me up. But this is my understanding of this is how we take care of each other. And sure. As he's standing in front of me, he's offering me this. “You know, it's just to help you get back on your feet,” is what he said to me. And for me to say no in that moment, I knew that I was defying an entire system that was set up for me. ‘Cause he looked at me and he is like, “Okay, okay. Like, that's kind of weird.” You don't, you don't say no to this in this neighborhood. You don't say no in this culture. You don't say-- you don't deny this offering. But I denied it. And when I denied it, I defied the system that I knew well. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 34 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: And did that, did that sever that relationship? Leyva: It did. I've not talked to the guy ever since. This is fifteen years ago. Visintainer: Do you mourn those relationships that are gone? Leyva: I think there's an emotional and mental and in a way a spiritual transition that needed to happen. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean these just like-- I took care of them. They took care of me. On the outside. They didn't care for me when I was in prison. That's usually what happens. But I knew that once I denied that, if I needed help, he was gonna deny me. Right. Or there needed to be a reckoning of that. And by not hearing from him anymore, I knew that okay, my life. Yeah. You defied this thing and I kind of felt like, okay, my circle all of a sudden got real small. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I just shared today in my talk today, that the more healing one does, the more healing I did, the more work I did on myself, the smaller and smaller my circle gets. Right. Some people just will not accept you anymore unless you're doing what they're doing. As long as they feel like you need them and they need you because misery is old—the saying misery loves company, right? They don't know a lot of people in my community, a lot of people in other areas, they don't know what to do with healed or healing people. Right. And my circle got real, my circle's small to this day, my circle is real small and I think now I prefer it that way. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I feel safer. I feel more included. I seem more like it's easier for me to ask for help. It's easier for me to, to give help. Right. Because a lot of times when you're in the mix of misery, you're carrying the burdens of that too. And I still, I carry a lot of burdens on me ‘cause I got people coming home from prison every single day. People coming home from jail every single day. People relapsing and reaching out. I need help. I need a rehab, or I need a detox or I need something and, and to be of service rather than, you know, to be part of the solution rather than being a part of the problem. It's a, it is a heavy load to carry, but it's a lot lighter than carrying the load of my neighborhood when I denied that guy, my homeboy. I can't, I appreciate you, I love you and thank you for this offer, but I can't accept it. That all of a sudden put, you know, Martin-- the rumors started, Martin is oh, he must have snitched or he must Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 35 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 have done this or he must have done that. Or you know, all of a sudden there's speculation about who I am versus they can't just accept the fact that I want to change my life. Right. But yeah, it's that's a struggle that a lot of incarcerated people are thinking about when they're coming home. And a lot of formerly incarcerated are faced with when they walk outside the door. And they wanna change. You know? And this is why programs like the in the community college or the university are so important because we give people that visibility and understanding that there's nothing wrong with you. And I don't even wanna say there's something wrong with my community because it's a culture that's there, right? But we don't have to partake in that culture anymore. That I can still be me. I can still be aesthetically who I am. I can still understand that. And I don't have to code switch if I don't want to. But again, I don't have to feed into that, you know? And so yeah. We went from my first crime to this <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But it's all, it's all really interconnected because I think that people are committing crimes because we don't know what else to do with ourselves and we don't know how to ask for help and we don't know how to-- We're being denied resources or jobs and so we commit crimes. And you know, sometimes I remember getting paychecks, you know, I was doing construction for a while and I look at my paycheck and, you know, I just had my first daughter was born. I was like, this isn't enough money to pay for rent and food and all this stuff. So I'd go out and I'd sell little drugs and do a little this and all of a sudden I had a little extra money. Not like I was selling to try to get rich. I was selling to try to keep the lights on or try to, I want to provide. One of my daughters wanted, oh, this little bike is cool, my paycheck ain't enough, but you know, I could sell a little bit of this and then go get that bike. You know what I mean? It makes me feel-- I know it's not the right thing to do. I know now, but at the time it's like the joy of seeing my daughter have something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: The joy of seeing a family around Christmas and Christmas presents, knowing that it's gonna put a smile on their faces. You think I'm really caring about the feeling I had about selling drugs to get that money. Not, you know, and it's you know, could I do it now? Absolutely not. Right. ‘Cause I know there's harm being created, but yeah. Visintainer: That must have, that must be like a really difficult part of the journey going home and realizing, I guess is realizing that a home is not exactly the home that you're… it's not the same place that it was before you went to, I guess. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 36 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Or it is but you're not the same. Leyva: You're not the same. No, it's hard because it depends how we define home. Right? My home with my sisters and my mom, she unfortunately passed away four years ago. Home changed when she, when she died, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Home changed when I decided to stop being the identified patient, Right. Because in my home, everybody's worried about Martin. Everybody's worried about, he's in jail, he's on drugs, he's doing this, he's doing that. I was the identified patient. And when I stopped being the identified patient in my family, my family didn't know what to do with me, let alone my community. You know, my friends growing up, like all of a sudden he's different. He's-- you know there's a loss there, right? But also now looking at home, whether it's the family or the community, now that I can see home as a different thing, I can help create a better home for those around me. Right. Access to, oh, let me help you with your job resume so you can get a better job. Let me help you get into college. Whether it's a welding certification or a HVAC certification, a job that'll get you a better pay. Right. And you can have a record and still do this work. Like, understanding this is like now I can actually help mold a new home for people, including my home. ‘Cause my neighborhood in Santa Barbara is still my home. I live in San Marcos in a little neighborhood. That's considered my home too because it mirrors the same neighborhood I grew up in. Escondido, Ocean-- certain parts of Ocean[side], like these places around here. The struggle of my neighborhood is the struggle of these neighborhoods. They're not different. So I get to define and create what home is. Right. And I hope that makes sense. ‘Cause it to me it's like, I think that's an obligation I feel like I have. And I always tell formerly incarcerated folks that we have an obligation to create the change that we didn't have. Be the mentors we didn't have be the fathers, we didn't have be the uncles and the brothers and everything that we didn't have or the mothers or the sisters. You know what I mean? This is-- gender's important, but we get to define home now. Hopefully better. Right. It's a matter of whether the people around us want to accept it or not. <laughs> Yeah. You know what I mean? So. Visintainer: The, the last time that you went into prison, did you know when you were in prison last time that you weren't going back? Or was that something that you realized afterwards? Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 37 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 You wanna hear something pretty wild? I still don't know if I'm going back. Cause I'm not the individual that says I'm never going back to prison. Visintainer: Gotcha. Leyva: I'm not the individual who says I'm never gonna drink or use again. I just know that right now, today, I'm not gonna go back and I'm not gonna drink. I'm not gonna use tomorrow. I can't predict, I can't predict two days from now. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And so I live my life that way. Right. But I knew-- This is a whole conversation itself. I didn't know, I knew when I was in prison, I was like, you know, this is, I know what rules to follow. I know what rules to adhere to. I know what rules to, to press. Right. I knew how to discipline somebody if they crossed the rule or broke a rule. That was a, is a easy life for me. I think what was, I think what happened -- actually, I don't think -- I know what happened is I met a group of men this time in prison that I was listening to. These men who were like talking to me about feelings and emotions. They were talking to me about spirituality and the sweat lodge and praying. They were talking to me about critical pedagogy, like mass incarceration and the war on drugs and gang injunctions. And I was like, “What the hell are you talking about?” These are not words that I know. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Right. And then they would give me books to read and they would like I remember after again-- I remember asking if I can go to college and the prison counselor was like, no, because you have a write up. I don't even know why I was asking for college. I got a high school diploma. I was like, I just wanted to-- I knew other people were doing college on their bunks right. From their cells. And they denied me college right away. But I still got educated in there because I read Pedagogy of the Oppressed for the first time in prison. I read My Life Is a Sun Dance by Leonard Peltier. I read Fanon, Marx and Lennon and I read all these books in prison. I had no idea what they meant. But these men were trying to critically teach me in the belly of the beast, mass incarceration. We build these buildings, we create the labor force and all this stuff. And I was back then, knowing what I know now, right this second, back then I was like, “What the hell are you talking about?” But I was still reading it. I was still listening. I was still paying attention. And when I entered college for the first time, and I'm sitting there and in sociology, they're talking, well, mass incarceration, these laws and policies and all of a sudden I'm thinking about Mitch and Joe and Squeaks these men who already put these language in my head. And I was like, this is why I Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 38 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 gotta be critical. Right. And it all made sense. And I believe in the universe. It was the universe put that stuff in front of me. Even if it made no sense, it made sense later. Right. How did we even get here? <Laughter> But there, there is, right? I think this is super important because it's like we become, I knew I didn't know that I would never go back to prison. I still don't know. I didn't know that. I all I knew is that when I left prison, I didn't want to go back. How I was gonna do it? I don't know. But I also knew-- one advice my uncle gave me, who also I learned through observation about drug use and violence. My uncle told me a long time ago, I don’t even know, I mean thirty years ago, he told me, “When you get to prison,” ‘cause it was a matter of if it was a matter of when or, “When you get locked up, don't drink, don't use.” He always said, “Use that as a moment of clarity.” And so I took that to heart. So every time I've been incarcerated at any time, I've never drank or used in prison or jail. And I think this last time I spent years not drinking, not using, because it's easy in jail, in prison to use. And I think it just had this moment of clarity where I was like, “I don't want this.” And I had this guy, Mitch Bodner, who was one of my elders in prison. And he passed away this past year, last year. Early on in my sentence, he's like-- he's like, you remember pointing this finger at me and saying, “You don't belong here. There's something about you. You don't belong here.” And I got offended. I was like, “What do you mean? I mean I'm here. I got the same tattoo you got!” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, “I run with the same group you run, what do you mean I don't belong here?” And he mentored me from that day on. And he's just like, when you go home, you help the people. When you, you know, you gotta be there for your kids. You have to be a father. You have to, you know what I mean? He kept plugging me in with all this stuff. And for the beginning I was like, “You're full of shit old man.” Right. But he wasn't. He wasn’t. He knew what he was talking about. And I am friends with his son who's also formerly incarcerated. And as Mitch passed away, me and -- his name's Creighton Bodner -- I could see, I could see Mitch's wisdoms spewed out on him too. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I understand what Mitch was saying, like, people around you matter and they can, you take care of them and they'll take care of you. You take care of each other, you got an entire community of people who advocate for each other. And I learned that through some random dude I met in prison. So yeah. I didn't know I wanted to, I just knew, All I knew is I didn't wanna go back to prison. And so far I'm fifteen years successful. <laughs> Visintainer: Could we talk a little bit more about the mentors that you met? Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 39 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: So how did you meet them? Leyva: Well, Mitch and Rodeo Joe were part of the same subculture. I don't call 'em gangs anymore. Like, “Oh, you're part of a prison gang.” I was like, “I'm part of a prison subculture that kept me safe.” And they were both-- Rodeo Joe was an artist, is an artist. And Mitch was part of uh, he's kind of a revolutionary. And Mitch was really that one guy who was like the father-figure. Right. The guy who was like… mentored me around spirituality especially. And I always say, the sweat lodge and Native spirituality really is my practice today, it saved my life. Really. And he showed me songs and rituals and these things that, you know, I felt like got a father finally. Right? And Rodeo Joe was the, he's always reading and creating art. Reading and art. And he always-- he handed me books and said, “What do you think about this book?” And I… we'd have conversations about different books. He was like my, both of 'em were like my teacher. But Squeaks on the other hand, I talk about Squeaks quite a bit to folks cause Squeaks was an old Black man. And in prison you don't cross lines; drugs and cigarettes and even water. Right. Like, things you just don't do. And it's a funny story. And I've written this story before where it was easier for Joe and Mitch to be my mentors ‘cause they're part of my subculture. But for somebody like Squeaks who I always say, and I'm writing about this in my dissertation, where out of Squeaks, I've cultivated this idea of a cellblock intellectual. ‘Cause I remember sitting in my cell one day, the yard was open, We can exit our building, we can do everything. And I was reading The Four Agreements[: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom]. Ruiz, no not Ruiz, anyway, The Four Agreements, I don’t remember the author's name, um, Miguel Ruiz. I was reading The Four Agreements and I remember Squeaks came up to my cell just to the door and he said, he's like, “What are you reading?” And we kinda have a little exchange of eyeball exchange because, you know, he's Black and I'm Native and we just had to have this understanding. It was a really funny story. And I was like, Four Agreements. And he's like, “Oh, that's a good book. It's kind of a shitty read.” You know, <Visintainer laughs> like he started critically thinking like, “It's a crappy book, son! You know what I mean?” And he's the one who first handed me Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And he said, “You should read this book.” And what was it? Maybe he was, no, actually I think he handed me Leonard Peltier's book. And he's like, “Here, you should read this.” He starts telling me about the book. “Just to help you understand the place you're in.” I took the book and I said, “Cool, thanks.” Didn’t pay it no mind. And sure enough, as soon as I opened it, I started reading it, I didn't really understand it, but I knew because Leonard Peltier was also Native and in prison, I had a connection to Uncle Leonard, right? And like a week and a half, two weeks later, about a week and a half, I was walking Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 40 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 the yard and Squeak comes up to me, said, “What'd you think of that book?” And it was like, I knew that there was something there when I said, “That's pretty good.” And he started to started telling me about the book. Like he had it memorized. And from there he became my mentor. And nobody ever questioned the relationship between me and Squeaks and race because they knew it was about education. Wasn’t about drugs, it wasn't about food, it wasn't about anything illegal is about books. And nobody ever questioned the mentorship around literature in prison, everything else they would've. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. So there are certain ways for people in prison to interact across the racial lines then— Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Where that, where that dynamic is not present or not as present. Leyva: Definitely. Definitely. And I think that education is one and you know, you can talk to whoever you want to talk to, but we also know that, you know, Squeaks and I both knew and Squeaks was an old dude already. So he wasn't involved in politics even though he would definitely go head to head against the system. But the prison politics, he wasn't involved. But we also knew that if anything was ever happened amongst races, we would go against each other. We just knew that without a doubt. Right. What's interesting, and it makes it very important thing to note, is that even Miguel Ruiz's book, The Four Agreements, Pedagogy [of] the Oppressed,” even like the The Souls of Black [Folk], like all these books that I was reading in prison, they're all considered banned books. They're considered banned books out here. Right. And in the prison system, I can get-- Squeaks and Rodeo Joe, we can all get written up for having these books. And the more writeups we can get a sent to administrative segregation for literature. We can have our visitation privileges removed. Our commissary privileges removed, our job detail removed. Just for literature. And he always said, “Here, read this and don't get this book taken away from you.” And I never understood that, “Well, who's gonna take away this book?” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I had to learn about banned books when I came out here and I realized that every single one of those books I read was on a list that the prison system had. That if you get caught-- Pedagogy of the Oppressed had like a paper bag cover on it Didn't even say Pedagogy of the Oppressed on the outside. I remember this didn't happen to me, but I remember like books that would say, you know, Holy Bible on the outside, but on the inside it's like a whole other book. Right? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 41 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Yeah. Yeah. Leyva: And they strategically hid literature inside other literature. Danielle Steele and these fucking novels, these love novels that people would always read. A lot of times it was just the covers but the books on the inside were different. Of course people were reading like love books and stuff, but I can never get into that prison book <laughs>. But I understood banned books when I came out here and I began to read about banned books and I began to understand like I can, you know, I don't understand why it's just literature. But, you know, the Attica uprising and racial groups banding together is dangerous for the system. Right. They don't want us to band together. ‘Cause it would become, I always say it become like a union force. Right. And they don't want that. So they make it difficult and, and make it difficult for us to have these books. They make it punishable to have these books. Squeaks and Joe and Mitch and others knew that this was a thing. I didn't at the time, I just read the books and had conversations. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But that was my mentors and that, you know, I wholeheartedly to this day hold them in high regard. And I remember it was Mitch who said… he always said this whole thing and people said this old cliche too. He's like, “Make sure you burn your idols. Anybody you idolize be better than them. Never-- anybody comes in your life that is teaching you something. Make sure you learn it better than they have it.” And that's the goal too, when I mentor somebody, it's like, “Oh, Martin, I want to be just like you.” I'm like, “Why you wanna be like me? Be better. Go higher, go farther, help more people.” Do you know what I mean? It's like you always gotta, and that's what Squeaks and Mitch and Joe taught me. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And their mentorship was, is, is, and from my understanding, well one: I know Squeaks and Mitch have passed on and I think Joe is still alive. I'd love to get an interview with Joe. But yeah, that's the goal is just, you know, take their mentorship, their guidance, their love and amplify it. Visintainer: Yeah. That’s a good goal. Leyva: And that's what I feel like I'm doing. I think I'm paying them a lot of respect by doing the work I do right now. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 42 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Thank you. Thank you for talking with me a little bit about your background and how you kind of came to where you're at now. I was curious… let's see. What led you to North San Diego County? Leyva: Graduate school. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Graduate school. Which I never thought I'd do. Right. I’m the first male in my family to go to college, let alone get an associate's degree or bachelor's degree? I got my bachelor's degree in Santa Barbara at Antioch University. Cost too much money. But Dr. Chris Bickel, who teaches here was teaching at San Luis Obispo at the time, encouraged me to go to graduate school. And it just so happened he just started teaching out here too. The same year. I came out as the same year. I think it was here about a year and a half before I came out here. But North County, San Diego was home because of graduate school and because it's a critical-- Cal State San Marcos was a very critical department of sociology, you know, they teach justice studies rather than criminology. Justice studies for me I knew for a fact when I got my bachelor's degree in psychology, I was like, “I wanna be a MFT or social worker.” And then I was like, what brought me here was the idea that they were gonna pick apart rational choice here. Cause I always heard rational choice, like, people choose to drink, people choose to commit crime, people do this. And I was like, Dr. Bickel, Dr. [Xuan] Santos were like, there's systems that make-- that create this playing field that's not fair, just. There's, people don't just choose to wake up like, I'm gonna commit a crime. No. It's like your access to jobs, your access to money, your access to all these things is denied. So then we commit crimes. Right. I remember, and I did this -- really quickly -- I did this in my neighborhood: I did a little experiment in my neighborhood in Santa Barbara. I stood on the corner for like four hours, four or five hours. Hung out on the corner. In about every seven minutes there was a cop that drove by. And then I counted the liquor stores in my neighborhood. Nine block radius, eleven liquor stores. And I remember hearing a judge once tell me when I got in trouble for alcohol. They're like, you know, “You’re nothing but an alcoholic.” You're, you know I don't know what the judge said, but I was like, okay, you're blaming me for my alcoholism. Who's blaming you for allowing so many liquor store in my neighborhood? “Oh, you're always continuing to getting pulled over by the police. You must be trouble.” I said, “Why is there then a cop driving through my neighborhood every seven minutes?” Cause they're looking for something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So you want-- I want to be accountable for the things I do, yes. But this school brought me out here. I came out here to this school because they're gonna help me hold the system accountable for the things they're doing too. The long, long que-- a long answer to that, why I'm out here, right. <laughter> Sorry. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 43 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 No, it's all good. And it's a um, I think it's a really good segue into some questions I wanted to ask. So do you believe in prison-- excuse me, prison abolition? Leyva: That's a loaded question for me because I do, I believe that we have, there's a better way. I think there's really good alternatives to incarceration. And the only reason I am not one-hundred percent sold on abolition work is because we live in a society that has not dismantled patriarchy. And so, even like Feminist Thought Theory says we should shut down the prison system, or feminist abolition work, I love it. It's beautiful work. But if we don't teach men and women to dismantle patriarchy, how are we going to open up the doors to prison for men and for women? Cause they feed into it as well. Gender, like, I would say gender’s super important. We can't open up a prison or, or dismantle the prison system where people haven't dismantled sexism, racism, classism, heterosexism. Right. These integral parts of patriarchy. Are we ready for that? I think that unfortunately I do, I've met people in prison who I've like, I hope I don't know, I hope you don't get out now, but I think everybody can be rehabilitated. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I don't think we have a prison system that's doing a-- not even a halfway decent job. I wish we didn't have prison systems. I wish we had alternatives to incarceration because people do commit crimes and people commit heinous crimes. And I think that we have to be careful saying we want to abolish a prison system. I don't think we need a prison system at the magnitude that it is. You know, I don't think that there's 2.3 million people in the United States that are bad and dangerous people. I think that there's a small, maybe even less than five percent of that number that maybe should be in a facility of some sort, some rehabilitative community, some therapeutic community -- we don't have to call it a prison -- who need real help. Right. But I don't think we can abolish a prison system unless we dismantle patriarchy first. I don't think we can do it. And I've been there, I've lived inside the prison system. I've lived inside the jails, I lived inside the violence enough to know that if we abolish this system, especially coming from feminist theory, we're not ready for. Right. <shrugs> It's also a goal though. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: How do we begin to do the work on patriarchy to set people up so they can have a successful reentry. Right. So I'm not one-hundred percent sold on abolition, even though I do push a lot of abolitionist thought. You know, I mean, we have better, we can have better systems knowing what we know now. But I think we need to really focus on dismantling patriarchy before we open up the doors. Visintainer: Yeah. I think, you know, generally speaking, people have a hard time envisioning a world without a prison system, without police, you know, things like that. Without-- and I guess maybe the question that Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 44 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 I want to ask in light of your answer to your last question is without patriarchy as well, people have trouble envisioning a world without that. Even if it's all around us and we don't even necessarily see it all the time, right. So what does a society without patriarchy look like? Leyva: I think it looks like-- I do often think about this. I think a, a society without patriarchy looks a little bit more empathetic and caring, a little bit more understanding, a little bit more -- very much actually -community-based approaches to everyday things that happen. Arguments and fights and misunderstandings, miscommunications. Right. That if we… I think patriarchy, there's a response to it. Right. Anger, yelling or violence or these gender roles, right. These gender roles of what women are supposed to do, what men are supposed to do. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans folks, all these folks, like all these people that live within our society. Elderly, young people, disabled, able-bodied, like the intersections of all those things, race, class, gender, ethnicity. That we need a world without patriarchy is an understanding that everybody here should be on the equal level playing field. And when something or somebody commits something against a group, right. This is the importance of restorative justice. This is the importance of conflict resolution, of alternative to violence, like all these great fields. I think that if we started teaching this stuff in literally preschool or pre-k[indergarten], first grade, second grade, third grade, all the way up has a curriculum that's based around feelings and emotions and understanding. I think we'll get to a generation someday who's less violent. Less violent, more empathetic, more caring, more… sees the world completely different. Right. Maybe this is a big hope and dream of mine. Right. Maybe this is something that's maybe never gonna happen. But I always look at it as, you know, it's always worth the shot because what we have right now ain't working for shit, <laughs> you know what I mean? It's not working. And, you know, we gotta understand all the intersections of single parents or, or children growing up without parents or the foster care system or, you know, the world we live in with you know, sexual exploitation of young people and like a world that’s a really harsh place. Right. But if we don't start teaching this stuff at a young age of how to really see each other, care about each other, you know, but I think that uh, but I do think, I think we can grow up in a world where there's less patriarchy or more defined like, you know, I'm not saying that being masculine or being-- there's something wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just our response to things doesn't have to be so like, harsh, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We can have disagreements and a conversation after. We can have a disagreement and space apart from each other, then come back and talk about it. Like, we can still have our feelings and emotions, but we teach people how to dismantle their reaction. I think little by little a world without patriarchy is more caring, you know? And it doesn't have to be loving. Nobody has to love each other. Right. But we have to care about each other. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 45 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: We're in it together. Covid taught us that. <laughs> We're in it together. Right. So yeah. Visintainer: What's your future plans for Project Rebound? Or where would you like to see it head? Leyva: I think my future plan is the same future plan as a lot of the coordinators and directors across the state. But just to see it in every CSU. To see every incarcerated person have the access to associates degrees when they come home, they can, if they want, can come to a CSU and be successful and grow as an individual. I also would love to see Project Rebound here and other places. Cause we, every time we do somebody does something at their Project Rebound, we share the information. Right. I'd like to see it become a hub for not just students, but community members come get their records expunged, come and find jobs or resources, come get food. And what we say in the office is come in and shoot the shit. Let’s come in and talk. Some people gotta get stuff off their chest and it's a hub where we just see each other and care about each other. Right. And right now, that's what we kind of have down there. We're just kind of building on it. It's a very small community. We want more community members that are students, but we want a bigger community of people around the university to say like, Project Rebound is supporting and helping us and that we're getting the help we need. Right. I think I see the, the work in the future for Project Rebound that it's just a place to come in and grow. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Student or not, you know what I mean? And you know, and we get, I get this idea from students who are not formally incarcerated, but are system impacted. When a student comes into my office, or, and I'm not gonna say my office comes into the office and they say, “Oh, my dad's incarcerated and I don't know what to do.” And we're sitting there, me or Lawrence or one of our formerly incarcerated students to sit there to talk to the student about what they're feeling, what they're going through. I see that as a community space to heal. Right. So that's where I see the future. It's just a place to grow and heal and be seen and cared for. Visintainer: Yeah. As you know, I spend some time working around the corner from you there and from my perspective you have a community there. I see a lot of engagement. I see a lot of students talking with you and it's pretty cool. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. It is really nice. Especially post-- pre-Covid. I mean, I was trying to, I was trying to sit there in little desks and do work and there'd be like ten people in that small space and I'm like, I gotta put some earphones on or something cause <laughs> yeah. I'm trying to get work done here. Right. It is, there is a community built there and it's nice to see it come back pretty quickly now that we're back on campus and yeah, I'm grateful for that space. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 46 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Yeah. Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't? Leyva: No. No. I think I really have appreciated this interview, this conversation. I wouldn’t even call it an interview. It's a, it's a conversation because I think-- I know I'm super grateful for this opportunity to be in this academic space and this community around people that I love being around. And I mean, as a formerly incarcerated person, again, feel obligated to continue helping people because in a way I'm really helping myself. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, sometimes I feel like I'm overpaid. Like I can go home even though I take a lot of the stress home with me or the emotional labor home with me. But I also know that every day I'm putting my best foot forward and I'm doing the work. And that pays homage to Joe and Mitch and Squeaks and others. ‘Cause I still remember the day I walked out of prison, the faces I left behind. Yeah. And this is my obligation to those men there. Not just the men, but all incarcerated people across this globe because incarceration is a global issue. You know, we just have the biggest one in the United States, but it is a global issue. Right. So, but I think question wise, or I think I'm good. Visintainer: All right. Well, I really appreciate your time and the conversation, so thank you very much. Leyva: You're welcome. Thank you. Visintainer: All right. I'm gonna go ahead and turn off the interview. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 47 2023-05-03 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Leyva, Martin. Interview transcript, October 10, 2022 Description An account of the resource Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community. Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Martin Leyva Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos -- Project Rebound Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Palomar College -- Transitions Program Parolees Prison-industrial complex Santa Barbara City College -- Transitions Program Transitions (Program) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Martin Leyva License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-19 CSUSM history Latine experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8b7ea359fd88c198e863d417f2251a4e.pdf f94190d28b4466324946ce6be2435b49 PDF Text Text ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Ryan Willis: Alright. Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing Ilima Kam Martinez for the California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections oral history project. Today is April 7, 2023, and the time is 1:47 PM, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Ilima, thank you so much for interviewing with me today. Ilima Kam Martinez: Thank you for the invitation. Willis: Of course. So, let's go ahead and start off, um, from the beginning. Where were you born? Martinez: I was born here in San Diego, California, and raised here in both Oceanside and Carlsbad area. Willis: Perfect. And if you don't mind, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Uh, what was it like growing up for you? Martinez: It's just-it's always an interesting question because I think I will answer that much differently than I would've say, you know, uh, 25 years ago. Um, I… attended schools in Carlsbad, which is a predominantly, you know, affluent Caucasian community. And coming from a really diverse background, um, I, uh… let me think. Willis: Yeah, yeah. Take your time <Martinez laughs>. Not a problem. Martinez: Um, that really set me on the path that I find myself on today. I grew up with both parents in my life. Two sisters, two older sisters. I'm the youngest. Um, my father was a retired civil engineer from Pearl Harbor. So he had me, you know, by the time I was born, he was already at an age where he was retired. So, I spent most of my time with him and being raised by him. Willis: Okay. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That's really interesting. So, you said your father worked in-at Pearl Harbor? Transcribed by Ryan Willis 1 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So did you spend a lot of time in Hawaii growing up? Martinez: I did. So, I also have two half-sisters, that remained in Hawaii, from my father's first marriage. And, when I say half-sisters, that's just, more literal than anything there. So I spent a lot of time, with my dad and my sisters during the summer times growing up. So we often would visit-Willis: Gotcha. Martinez: Hawaii. Willis: Did you ever have any interest in living there full-time? Or was it just more of like, oh, we'll just, you know, visit here and there? Martinez: I always thought I would. I always thought that I would, eventually wind up there. Um, and I'm not totally disregarding the possibility of that happening in the future. But yes, I do hope to find myself back there one day. Willis: That's awesome. Yeah. I've always wanted to visit, but never have to this point. Um, were there any influential family members or friends growing up that you really looked up to? Martinez: I would have to say my dad. Willis: Your dad. Martinez: Yeah. My dad was, he was so, he came from a, a generation right, where it was very, um, old school. You know, he was working at Pearl Harbor at the time that it was bombed. And so he, he, although he wasn't… he came from a generation, that was not especially affectionate or maybe verbalized, you know, their, their love for their families and friends, but always showed it, you know, in by example. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 2 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Always being present with me, always, you know, taking me to, you know, activities. And, so although he might not have been, you know, that ty-not typical, but extremely affectionate or, you know, verbalizing love that he was very instrumental in what I would consider to be a really happy childhood. Willis: Right. Yeah. That's awesome. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So you said that he was actually at Pearl Harbor, though when the bombing took place? Martinez: He was mm-hmm. Willis: Wow. So what kind of stories did he have <Martinez laughs> regarding that? Or was that something that he kind of just didn't like to talk about? Martinez: He, it's funny because I actually didn't even know he was a civil engineer at Pearl Harbor until his 80th birthday party. Which took place in Hawaii. In his retirement he was actually a tennis instructor for the Carlsbad Parks and Recreation for twenty years. That's what I always thought that he was. <laughs> To me, that's what my dad did for a living. Willis: Right. Martinez: Oh, he's a tennis instructor! <laughs>. And when somebody, you know, was giving a speech at his birthday party instead he was a civil engineer, you know, I'm already a young adult at that point, right? At Pearl Harbor. I was, I had no idea. But that was typical of my dad. He was very, very humble. Um, very modest. And so, it probably shouldn't have surprised me, but yeah. He didn't talk about much about his experience, at Pearl Harbor at the time. Later on, you know, when he, so he had suffered a major stroke in his eighties and, had moved in, with my family and I, and so I was his sole caregiver during about a span, about, of about 10 years. And things would, he would start to talk about it but never really elaborate. And, and I just always, you know, knew better than to, to pry that he would tell me what I was meant to know. Willis: Right. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 3 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: What he felt that I should know. Willis: Yeah. If you didn’t find out about it until you were, you know, a young adult. So that kind of-- <laughs> Martinez: Right. Willis: Explains it right there. Like yeah, you probably didn’t want to go there. Martinez: Exactly. And, and my dad was such a, he was such, a planner, right? Like, he was always very organized, always had things in place. So he actually had written his own obituary several years before he even had his stroke. And so it was actually through his obituary that he wrote that I learned a lot about him. Willis: I see. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That's fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. <laughs> Willis: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So kind of along the lines of Hawaiian culture, when did you first take an interest in it? And was there a point in your life where you kind of knew that that was something that you really wanted to focus on in your life, or even with a career? Transcribed by Ryan Willis 4 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: I, I think that so being the youngest of my siblings, I was the only one who was born here in San Diego. All my siblings, all my sisters were born in Hawaii, raised in Hawaii. And so I feel like there was always that yearning, you know, to be connected to Hawaii. And, um, it's really interesting because what I didn't know at the time in my upbringing, you know, with my dad, what I didn't realize was very special and unique to Hawaiian culture? I didn't even realize that's what it was until, until later on. Right? Just, you know, maybe the foods we ate, the music my, my dad would play, he was a “slap <unclear> guitarist.” He played ukulele. Um, but, it, to me, it was just my home. Right? So I think that it was pretty, I think I wanna say sometime around maybe middle school that I had seen a hula performance. And I remember it having such an impact on me at that moment that I was like, ahh! I don't know, there was just this instant connection, although I had seen, you know, hula before, but it was just this one particular moment. And so, that was when I had asked my dad, I would like to take hula classes, but again, I mean, I'm in Carlsbad, right? And like where, where do you even find something like that? And, and, um. But we, we did. And so he, enrolled me in classes at that time. And it's been a lifelong journey of learning ever since. And just something that I've always felt, so it, it's been the constant in my life right? Where I could go, always rely on hula to, to, um… it was just a, an anchor, you know? Right. No matter what else is going on in my life, hula was always and still is that anchor for me, that makes me feel safe. Willis: Right. Martinez: Yeah. Willis: That's so cool. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, because I know that we, had talked in our pre-interview specifically about hula and how important that is to Hawaiian culture. I understand that you actually teach it as well. Martinez: I do <laughs>, I do. I have a hālau in, which is a traditional hula school in Vista. I just opened up the hālau oh gosh. We just celebrated our fourth anniversary. Um, and it's been, it's been wonderful. Um, I think for those that have not had experience in hālau it's, it can be challenging to understand, but hālau equates for a lot of people family, right? Like in its essence, yes, it's a school of hula, but really it's in, its, in its foundational form it's about family and it works and operates very much like a family. So sometimes I wonder if it was really that I wanted to open the hālau for <laughs>, you know, teaching hula or if it was for the purpose of being able to provide a home and a family for, for students. Willis: Right. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 5 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Willis: That's awesome. You also mentioned that you have a passion for elders, and I know that you were teaching them as well pre-Covid. Is that correct? Martinez: Pre-Covid I was volunteering at the Oceanside Senior Center. And I think it also again goes back to my dad. I think a lot of things <laughs> will go back to my dad. He was, I mean he was fifty-eight years old when I was born, and I think about that and it just kind of blows my mind. And as being his caregiver, kūpuna or elders in Hawaiian culture are so, I think that's one of the many unique things about Hawaiian culture is that we, help, hold our kūpuna in such high regard because we know that their experience, we know that their, the lives that they have lived and their experience far surpasses ours. So we always know to go to them and respect, you know, the knowledge that they, that they bear. So yeah-Willis: And I think you also mentioned that part of the reason why you've really enjoyed teaching the hula to seniors or elders is because it exercises their mind not just their body, right? Like you're just kind of focusing on the whole package there. Can you maybe elaborate a little bit more on that? Martinez: Yeah. I mean, hula at its core is encompassing of, mental, physical, and spiritual, which you know, I've learned that not everybody realizes or may know that. And so, when you're, when I'm teaching with kūpuna, having those three facets; that physical, mental and emotional part I have seen has been such, has had such a huge impact on them. You know, just the simple act of coming together, of sharing meals together, which we do a lot, <laughs> The cognition that goes into learning choreography, I have seen such an a really impressive trajectory, upward trajectory in how much now that my kūpuna class can retain as opposed to when they may have first started dancing. Right. I think that, watching that, like being a witness to this, this, how it can, how hula can positively impact them, is just, such a huge motivator to just keep going, to just to keep doing that and okay now what else can we do? Willis: Yeah. Seems like that would be very rewarding. Martinez: Mm-hmm. It's Extremely rewarding. Willis: So you were teaching, classes for free to seniors right before CovidMartinez: Before Covid. Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 6 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 And then once Covid hit. So what was that whole experience like for you once Covid hit and you weren't able to teach people in person. I bet that was really difficult for you. Martinez: <laughs>. It was, it was. It provided its challenges. I think a lot of us shared the same challenges. Trying to communicate and, keep a community online was just really challenging. However, I feel like during the time of the pandemic folks were looking to have that sense of community that when you would've thought that we would have flailed, as a hālau, it actually just thrived, because of that need that, just that human need to want to come together and have a community. So when it was time, when we reached that time where we could come together outdoors, I mean, we, we did it immediately. As soon as we were told that we could conduct classes outdoors it was immediately and students came out and didn't hesitate. I would say probably the most challenging thing was what is inherently cult- culturally inherent to us is the act of like, exchanging hānai or, you know kiss, kisses or hugs. And culturally, that's what we do when we greet each other, when we say farewell to each other, is to always hānai each other. And that was probably one of the largest challenges because we couldn’t even, like, <Willis laughs> we couldn't touchWillis: Right. Martinez: We couldn'tWillis: Six feet. Martinez: Yeah. That six feet. And it went against everything that we, that was so ingrained in us that that, that was pretty tough. Willis: That was such an awkward moment in time. Like, nobody really knew how to interact with each other. I want to give you a hug, but I guess let's give you an air hug for now. Martinez: Yeah, yeah. Willis: But I can see how that could be very difficult, especially with your culture, just wanting to be right there with the person and be able to, you know, exchange those pleasantries. So-Martinez: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 7 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Yeah. Willis: Yeah. Going back to when you first started learning hula, do you specifically remember an instructor or somebody that taught you or that really had an influence on that? Martinez: I couldn't single one out to be honest, because with each kumu or teacher that I have had has had such a huge influence on the kumu that I am today. I, I couldn't credit just, just one. They all affected me in different ways, but equally impactful ways. I'll note that, so I was, <unclear> is the formal graduation ceremony that a kuma hula goes through in order to, it's like it's a method of training, right? To become a kuma hula. And so the kuma that I was very honored and so blessed to be able to graduate under, he's, his name is Kawaikapuokalani Hewett. And he is so prolific and knowledgeable in, in all aspects of Hawaiian culture that, and just to have that source, to be able to always go back to for the rest of, you know, my life like, that's just, it's just really, I feel so, so blessed that I have him, in my life. And, and the Hawaiian community is blessed to have him because he's so gracious and generous with his, with his ‘ike or his knowledge, where I think that as an indigenous culture, we often can gatekeep you know, rightfully so. But we can often gatekeep some knowledge because of how it has been, exploited right? In the past. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: And the fact that, that kumu Kawaikapuokalani is, is, has such a kind heart and willing to be able to, share knowledge is, is really, really priceless because it has benefited so many of his students. Willis: Right, right. Do you remember when you met him exactly? Was it when you were first learning hula or? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Well he is a, he, I can't remember exactly because he's very well known in Hawaii. He is a famous composer or songwriter and poet. And so my father being a musician, I remember seeing Kawaikapuo CDs in my home, you know at the time. So I, it's actually kind of interesting cause I feel like it was almost a, uh, predetermined that this relationship was going to circle around. Right. And ironically, he, and I can't obviously say the name, but he resides on the same street in Hawaii that my sister resided in at the time. So when I would visit my sister <laughs> in Hawaii, it was the same street that my now kumu still lives on. So, it, it's just-Willis: Oh wow. How convenient is that? Martinez: It's just, yeah, <laughs>. I’m going to say coincident, there’s no such thing as coincidences. Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 8 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Right. No, I agree. <Martinez laughs>. Aside from hula, are there any other specific Hawaiian traditions that you really feel passionate about? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Um, I feel that hula does encompass all of those traditions. Right? And I think that's why it is so predominant in Hawaiian culture because it encompasses every aspect of Hawaiian culture. Protocols are implemented in hula that are implemented in… that really dictate, the belief systems of Hawaiian people. So, I wouldn't, I, yeah. I don't think, yeah. <laughs> Willis: No, that's perfect. Do you think there's any like, big misconceptions about Hawaiians or Hawaiian culture in general? I mean, like stereotypes <Martinez laughs> from your experiences? Martinez: Yeah. <more laughter>. Yeah. There's, I wouldn't even know where to begin <laughs>. Willis: <laughs> I know it's kind of a loaded question. Martinez: Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. But if I had to Like if I had to choose, you know, one or two of the most common stereotypes or misconceptions, gosh, I would, I… Hmm, Hmm. Well, I'll address one thing only because it's fresh in my mind. And I was posed this question recently was I often get asked, “Oh, how much Hawaiian are you? And it's interesting when folks ask this question because it's almost like they're putting a measure to it. Yeah? And I think what folks don't understand is that as a Hawaiian people, we identify our Hawaiian-ness is by our lineage and our ancestors. Right? It's not about a blood quantum. And I, I think I'll just leave it at that <laughs>. Willis: That's perfect. I appreciate that. Didn't mean to put you on the spot. Martinez: No, no, it's a great question. It was just hard to decide what it would be the, what is most often misunderstood. Because there's plenty. There’s plenty. Willis: Yeah. Understood. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So this next question's gonna kind of lead into your organization that I want to talk to you about- Transcribed by Ryan Willis 9 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: But around when and how did you begin your journey in assisting with spreading and preserving traditions of Hawaii? Martinez: I'm sorry, can you ask--? Willis: Yeah, of course. So I was just wondering around when was it, when you were maybe a teenager, young adult, when you decided, okay, I'm gonna really start to assist with spreading and preserving the traditions of Hawaiian culture? Martinez: Hmm. Oh gosh. I think I can't recall when I know I was younger, but I can't recall the exact time. But as an adult, I always knew. Like as a young adult, I knew that that would be my mission, for a couple reasons. One, it was the accessibility of, learning Hawaiian culture being a Hawaiian who lives in diaspora, right? Who doesn't, who isn't living in their ancestral land. So, just, you know, personally from my own personal experience not having that access and really having to actively search for it, I knew that I wanted to be able to provide that for other native Hawaiians that are not, no longer residing in Hawaii. Another reason is that just like anything else, any sort of extracurricular activity, sometimes classes are not affordable to, native Hawaiian population. Right? They can be, that can be a barrier, a financial barrier. And that's always kind of been, to me an interesting, dilemma as a kumu hula, and as someone who has a hālau, I always wanna make sure our classes are accessible to everyone who wants to learn. However, at the end of the day, I still have a lease to pay. Right? An electric bill. And, and so how can I do that in such a way that it can benefit students. How can I teach, culture in a way that can benefit students, that can still benefit financially for my family, right? Because I dedicate a lot of my time to this. And then the third component is, how can it benefit the community as a whole? And I think that's where UMEKE, our organization comes in, right? Establishing that nonprofit organization where we can be able to provide access to culture for everyone. Because I believe anyone and everyone who would like to learn Native Hawaiian or not, should be able to. Should be able to do that and do it in a, an a appropriate and an authentic way you know, because we don't live… Because of our locale, there are often folks who may be teaching a version of hula or, but perhaps they don't have the education to be teaching Hawaiian culture in, you know in an authentic way. And that's not to say that it's, you know I'm sure the intention, the intentions are good and, and whatnot, but they're-- In San Diego in particular, the native Hawaiian community is very passionate about being, taking on that kuleana or that responsibility of educating about Hawaiian culture in a way that it's, that it's coming from the native Hawaiian community. Yeah. I know that, personally, and this is just me personally, is that because Hawaiian culture has been commercialized for so long, I actively work towards deconstructing those, those, those stereotypes that surround Hawaiian culture that mostly came about once Hawaii became a, a very popular travel destination. Right? Um, so-- Transcribed by Ryan Willis 10 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Willis: Gotcha. So speaking a little bit more on, UMEKE when did you first, establish your organization? Martinez: We filed in 2021, October of 2021. And we were stagnant for a little bit as we were kind of building our capacity, and I've just recently become more active and had some really great opportunities to be able to-Willis: And you are the founder, you are the president. It's really, you know, your idea. Right? You were the one that was like, let's do this, let's push forward. Martinez: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Willis: Was there anyone else that hopped on board with you that kind of helped you get it going? Or was it pretty much your project and your project only? Martinez: Oh my gosh. I had a huge support system, even from people that don't even realize they were part of it. They were part of it. <laughs> And again, it goes back to, my, the elders within the Hawaiian community, specifically in San Diego. Those aunties, you know, I have some really amazing female role models in the Native Hawaiian community, in the kūpuna. And when I see the work that they have done and dedicated their lives to, I realize that this next generation, that I now have that responsibility to keep on that pathway that they've, that they've blazed already. Right? Mm-hmm. Willis: Right. So obviously it's still a relatively new organization, but what are you most proud of, so far, and what are you kind of hoping to accomplish moving forward? Martinez: Oh, gosh. I'm at this moment most proud of a grant we were recently working on within collaboration with a local school district to be able to bring hula to -- and ukulele -- to an elementary school that has a significant Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander [NHPI] population. And providing that accessibility component, where, you know students might not otherwise be able to afford it financially or may not just even have the transportation for that, right? Because it happens during school. It, the accessibility just makes, made it so easy. So I would say that because I reflect on what I would've really loved at that age and been exposed to, and being able to take ownership of that [NHPI] identity in a place other than my home, among my friends, I think that would've been really impactful for me as a young person. And so-Willis: Definitely. Yeah. And kids remember assemblies like that as well. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 11 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: I can still tell you some of the ones that I attended in elementary school and like the impact they had on me so that's a really cool thing. And then, as far as like, looking forward to future, do you have any goals in mind or is it really just continue to do what you're doing and hope more people hop on? Martinez: <laughs> Yeah, I mean, as far as goals it's so interesting because when this group of us set out to start UMEKE, there were really folks that just wholeheartedly believed in me and my vision. And when we set out to do this, I think just like anything when you start something you're like, “Ohh!,” you know. <laughs> We weren't sure how successful we would be, but it's so interesting because opportunities have really been presenting themselves without us seeking them out, which to me, speaks to the mission of UMEKE that it was something that was really needed in our community because projects are really kind of floating our way, and it aligns with what we would love to do. So although we didn't know exactly maybe specifically what a project was going to look like, folks are coming to us with their projects. And so it's, that's really exciting because it's like, oh, there was a need! We, okay, great. You know- <laughs> Willis: <laughs> It’s all for a reason. Martinez: It, yes. Yeah. Willis: That's really cool. Shifting gears a little bit, I understand you are a Cal State San Marco alum? Martinez: I am. Willis: So you earned your bachelor's degree in Indigenous Anthropology, is that correct? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: in 2019? Transcribed by Ryan Willis 12 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So what was that, what made you decide to ultimately go for a bachelor's degree? What kind of pushed you in that direction? Martinez: That's a funny story. So I have four children, and my eldest was in high school at the time and, you know neither of my parents went to college. And between my siblings and I, we didn't have a four-year degree. Right. So I was very, very, very <laughs>, persistent that my children go to a four-year college, and I realized that I couldn't preach <laughs> higher education to them. Unless I went ahead and did it myself and so I did <laughter>. Yeah. Willis: That's very admirable. It's, it's not easy, especially when you're a parent. I can attest to that. It is not easy to continue on with school. I mean, you just have so many other things going on. Just to be able to put aside some time for that is a challenge within itself. Was it a difficult decision? I mean, I guess that's the obvious to, to go back to school or, but once you got in, was it, was it easy for you? Did it come naturally, or what was that kind of whole process like when you first started attending classes? Martinez: It was interesting going back as an, as a non-traditional student and, you know, at my age with children, I knew I was going to go into it slow and steady. I wasn't in a rush. And so I had just started with maybe two classes per semester. And, and I actually thought of it as a blessing because I got to study exactly what I wanted to. I knew that cultural anthropology was going to be something that would maintain my interest and my goals. And so, when I had learned that Cal State [San Marcos] specifically had an indigenous anthropology degree, it, it, it just all made sense. So it wasn't, it was challenging maybe logistically, having, juggling, family, but learning and the like-minded folks that I got to meet, especially this younger generation! They're amazing, you know, <laughter> and getting invigorated by this young energy. For me it was a, it was a great experience, and you know, when you tell somebody that you're going to school for indigenous anthropology, you always get that question, what are you gonna do with that? Well, guess what? I use it every single day! <laughs>, Willis: Right. Not everybody can say that, so that's impressive. Yeah. Uh, so did you come away with a new perspective after graduating? Martinez: Um, hmm. I think the perspective that I got was, probably one of the most important perspectives is that outside perspective, right? Because we're sometimes always just living in our bubble and really only see what's happening in our immediate surroundings. And so, I would say it changed my perspective in that, in the sense that, one, learning about other cultures, and when we learn about other cultures, it really helps us to understand more of our own, and being with such a diverse, because Cal State [San Marcos] does have a really diverse student body, right? So different ages and ethnicities. And so I think Transcribed by Ryan Willis 13 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 that, those, all of those things combined are, are what changed my perspective, not the actual piece of paper <laughs>. Willis: Yeah, no. I totally understand. Um, as far as the other cultures that you learned about, was there one in particular other than Hawaiian that really caught your attention? Martinez: Oh my goodness. I wouldn't say specifically one. I think that just studying other indigenous cultures, particularly, you know, the ones within our area, like the Kumeyaay and the Luiseño, I just loved learning about how more similar Hawaiian culture is, with the [San Diego-are] native communities than not, and so I would say it that was just, and, and that was with everything. That's with belief systems, that's with, our, our medical systems, how we view health. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: How we view, our, structures of our families, our structure of our communities. So, now I'm not sure that I <laughs> answered your question. Willis: Yeah, that's perfect. Um, so I did want to touch base on an event that, um, you obviously had a huge hand in, earlier this year in February, you were able to establish the first ever southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander Festival. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Which, um, took place actually here in Oceanside. Uh, first off, what was kind of the vision of this, event and how long did it take for this idea to become a reality? Martinez: Um, I can say I can't take credit for coming up with the idea. As, but as now, like currently being a cocreator of, of the event for me personally, I come from a multiculturally- multicultural background, so, um, as a lot of us are right? So yes, I'm Native Hawaiian. Um, in addition to that, I'm also Japanese and Chinese and Mexican. And, coming from such a, a multi-ethnic background growing up in North [San Diego] County, I think that, my drive behind this event is one, bringing that diversity to North County that it hasn't seen a lot of in the past that, and maybe on this, on this level, right? Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 14 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Mm-hmm. Martinez: The API [Asian & Pacific Islander] community being highlighted to this extent in this area, we're quite underrepresented. And I knew that going into this festival that our number one focus was always going to be on the educational aspect of it, and getting, you know, circling back to that, like when we understand other cultures, that we really begin to understand ourselves more, and we wanted to focus on this educational part because sometimes festivals can get quite, um, what's the word? Insular. Yeah. And we want to make it, we want folks to know that this festival's for everyone. You know, no matter what the background, no matter what the age, no matter what the locale that is for everybody to be able to come together and learn about API culture. Willis: Right. Gotcha. Martinez: So-Willis: Uh, so can you share your experience of how the event actually unfolded? Was it what you were hoping for? Was it a nice turnout? Martinez: Well, it's actually in three weeks. Willis: Oh, my mistake. <laughs> Martinez: <laughs>. So we're in the thick of it. Willis: Gotcha. Okay. I must have, misread that. My apologies. <laughs> My understanding is that it already happened earlier this year. Martinez: No worries. Willis: Okay. So it's happening in three weeks from now! Transcribed by Ryan Willis 15 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Okay. That's awesome. So I guess, um, what are you expecting? Are you expecting it to be a pretty big turnout? Martinez: Well, that's what we're hoping for! <laughs> Willis: Of course. Martinez: Um, but as far as how it's unfolded, you know, it did just like anything, it's evolved. The, the, the vision has evolved a little bit. In, in, the, the, yeah, the vision and the mission have all evolved quite a bit, but as far as like what people can expect, because we wanted it to be, you know, educational, there you will find the typical things that you would find in a festival, yeah, is performances and vendors and food and things like that. But I think probably my most favorite part that has sort of evolved since the initial planning is this contemporary aspect of what API culture looks like. So, I mean, you can use K-Pop [Korean pop music] as a great example, right? Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: Like, and the phenomenon around K-pop and, where that came from. So initially we were focusing mostly on traditional practices and performances, but then we realized how many amazing API artists are out there and are deserving of recognition, but may not necessarily be practicing what would be considered a traditional art. So that's, I think I'm really excited to see what some of these performers are bringing, these API artists and performers are bringing to the festival. I think that's gonna be a really fun aspect of it. That was, for me, it was, it was an unexpected but pleasant surprise addition to the festival. Willis: Right. Absolutely. Uh, do you know about how many different ethnicities, cultures are gonna be represented at this event? Martinez: We have about, um, over 20. Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 16 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Wow. Martinez: Yeah. We have about over 20. Willis: That's impressive. And a lot of them have just, have they been coming to you about it, or do you reach out to them? How does that usually work? Martinez: You know I, I'm really fortunate to have been embedded in the Pacific Islander community in San Diego since I, you know, the dance community is very close-knit. So I'm really fortunate to be able to reach out to other directors of performance groups that I am, I have relationships with. And they were the first ones to jump on and say, yes, we would love to support you. Um, so that was really how the momentum, started. Right? Because, you know, you start with one performance group and then another performance group. Oh! And then so-and-so's performing, and then another one. And so I wasn't as, connected within, the AA [African American] community though, and that has been an amazing experience is meeting other directors in their respective arts, like, <unclear> and, Lion Dance, and, because it's just, we are all, we're all the same at the end of the day. And um, so I, this initial year we did a huge, we did a lot of outreach. We have a great leadership team, and so between us and our outreach and our circles, we, we got a lot of support from folks. And it didn't take much of an ask. Folks really wanted to be a part of this. They really wanted this. Willis: I can imagine. That's fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So is there anything else that you uh, or how else do you continue to help, I guess Native Hawaiian culture and how can, for example, someone like myself get involved if they wanted to, kind of help and promote in that area? Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, oh, I'm sorry. Can you repeat that again? <laughs> Willis: So I guess what I'm really getting at, like how can someone else, if they really want to, you know, help and be a part of the cause, how would they go about doing that? Would they just reach out to you? Martinez: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 17 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Oh, yeah. I mean the, I mean, what, that's the irony in it, right? Is the majority of, of my supporters and our team are not Native Hawaiian. And, but it's that allyship and because they you know, believe in, in, in the mission they're absolutely willing to just jump in <laughs> and do whatever needs to be done. Um, so yeah, I mean anybody who ever want, who wants to be an ally, we are, we are here and happy and-Willis: Come on down! Martinez: Yes. Ready to, to you know, just grow our community. Willis: Right. That's so cool. So you kind of may have already answered this earlier but overall, as you reflect on everything you have done and accomplished to this point in your life, what are you most proud of and what has brought you the most joy? Has it been, maybe the hula aspect, um, teaching elders, children, or is there something else? Martinez: <laughs> Uh I think, it's my own children, right? That will always be my most proud accomplishment. <laughs> Them as individuals, but also taking that perspective again of what I really could have needed or wanted in my upbringing, I feel like I provided that for my children and have instilled that into my children. And, knowing that I know that they're gonna move forward and pass that on to their children, that's, that will always be my proudest accomplishment, knowing that the generations far after I'm gone, will still be carrying on those, on those traditions. Willis: Yeah. That's fantastic. And then, before we close our interview, is there anything else you would like to mention? Maybe something I didn't ask you about that you really were hoping I would or? <laughs> Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, not that I can think of. Um, yeah, no nothing <laughs> Willis: Okay. Yeah, no that's perfect. I think we definitely covered a lot of great stuff in this interview. So, really appreciate your time, Ilima. This was very informative. I think a lot of people can get a lot out of this whole interview and, really appreciate everything that you do for not only Hawaiian culture, but just the community in general. So thank you so much for your time. Martinez: Yeah, thank you. Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 18 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Alright. <Martinez laughs> Now I'm gonna go ahead and stop the recording. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 19 2023-05-25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Martinez, Ilima Kam. Interview transcript, April 7, 2023 Description An account of the resource Ilima Kam Martinez is a California State University San Marcos alum and the founder and President of UMEKE, an organization that promotes and preserves Hawaiian culture through hula dancing. In this interview, Ilima discusses her upbringing, the influence and relationship with her father, the importance of hula in Hawaiian cultures, the challenges she faced during the Covid-19 pandemic, her passion for elders, her mentors, going back to school to earn her degree, and her goals for UMEKE moving forward. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-07 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hawaii -- Culture Hawaii -- Social life and customs Hula (Dance) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Hawaii San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Hawaiian Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ilima Kam Martinez License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-27 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ilima Kam Martinez Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e5bf1f97a35282317729bf7098f39994.pdf b4024d6a5dbc4418f2bcf07e8586c7fd PDF Text Text ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Lucy Wheeler: Today is November 16th, 2022, on behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative Project. We’re here at the Nagata Farm, in Oceanside bordering on Fallbrook and Bonsall. My name is Lucy Wheeler, and let’s go inside and meet them! [Lucy is initially on a balcony or deck, then moves inside to meet the Nagatas] Lucy Wheeler: Good morning. George and Alethea Nagata [both nod] Good morning. Wheeler: It’s so nice to be here, and I’d like to introduce you to our audience. Um, on our left we have Mr. George Nagata. George Nagata: Yep. [nodding] Wheeler: And Alethea Nagata, Nagata. [Mrs. Nagata nods] Um, they are second generation of four generations— George Nagata: [nodding] Yes, correct. Wheeler: —and we would love to hear your story, about how your families came to America, to the United States, and mostly just about how you’ve managed to live to your age. So let’s begin by where you were born, and what year, and then just briefly an introduction about how your ancestors came here. It’s your story, but predominantly setting the stage with your history. Do you want to go first, George? George Nagata: Alright. I was born in Gardena, California, in 1924, April 24th. Um, um, my father came over in about 1900, from, uh, a city of Kumamoto, Japan, which is in the south, southern Japan. And, uh, the family were, uh—they loaned money and, loan sharks I guess you’d call ‘em. And, um, they were pretty well off, and they would, uh, uh, have the rice as a collateral for the loaner to bring in. So, they would pile up a lot of rice and, and then they couldn’t pay, they took the rice. But they didn’t know what to do with it. So, after a while they decided to start a sake factory, and they progressed in it, and, and they were pretty well off. Uh, my father just went to school, and, and in fact he graduated from university and he was well educated for, um, people at that time. And so when he―he said that he used to get up in the morning and he had nothing to do so he would go out hunting for birds and he would bring it home, and, and eat those birds. But he got tired of it, and he wanted a, a more adventurous so he decided to come to United States and at first he landed in, uh, uh, Seattle, then came to San Francisco, and he went to night school there and he was a house boy for some old people. And, uh, uh, he didn’t—he learned his English, so he went into various business because if he needed money he would just send a letter to Japan. They would send him money to do whatever he wanted to do. So, he did some farming of cotton in Arizona, and then in Texas. But he wasn’t successful. He said he went to work for a railroad, and uh, and, uh, uh, in Arizona, and uh after a while he said he got tired of that. So, he, uh, come down to Los Angeles and he was just moaning around and doing a little farm work for people and I guess he did some joint venture with other people. But, he wasn’t successful so he decided at age, about, uh, forty-eight, he thought “Oh, I’m getting old. I’d better go find a bride!” [Mrs. Nagata chuckles] So, he went to Japan and married my mother, and they Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 came over in about 1920. And their first child was born in, in 1921, but only lived for nine months. She had diphtheria and she died. And so, next child was myself. In 1924, I was born, and my father bought a, a farm from some friend who was, uh, uh,―made enough money to go back to Japan. So, my father bought this farm, and they were working it, but they weren’t that successful. So, um, they decided to move from Gardena to Torrance and I was about four years old, and, and, and my mother would take the uncooked rice and they’d build a little pot, a fireplace, and then they, they asked me to watch them so that a fire won’t go out and I, I kept feeding the wood in there to keep the uh, rice cooked. By 12 o’clock the rice was ready, We would have a lunch. And then my mother would go back to work. And, uh, from Torrance, uh, we farmed there for about three years and my dad decided to go to Heinz, which is uh, uh, near Bellflower, California. And we were, uh, farming there and he planted uh, uh, strawberries and some melons and I was about six or seven years old. And dad would say that “I’m going to teach you how to drive a horse.” [Mrs. Nagata chuckles] So he made a little sled, and, and he wanted me to pick the melon and put it in this box, and haul it back to the shed, so he could pack it. And I did that for a while. But, you know, being so young that I, I wanted to play! I did not want to work. [chuckles] Uh, he used to tell me “You gotta help me.” And, my brother Harry was born in 1925 [turns his head towards his wife] and that was in, um, Torrance, and— Wheeler: Let’s, uh— George Nagata: And uh, huh? [turns to look at his wife] Wheeler: Oh, I was just going to say, let’s let her tell her part up to that point. George Nagata: Okay. Wheeler: And then we’ll connect how you met each other. So, tell us about your— Alethea Nagata: I was born in Bonsall, California. Wheeler: Very close! Alethea Nagata: October 15th, 1926. And my parents had moved from, from Orange County to Bonsall, to change a little bit of their f—their, you know—to a new land, sort of. And so that’s where we, um, settled for a while. And then, uh, he moved to San Luis Rey where he started farming again. Wheeler: What were your parents’ name? Alethea Nagata: Wor Tasuke and Kane Yaskochi Wheeler: Okay. Alethea Nagata: And [clears her throat] they were both married already in Japan in about 1919. And they, they came to America separately. My father came about 1920 with his father, and my mother came about a year—I believe, about a year or so later. And, uh, they settled in Orange County. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Wheeler: And your father was here in—what year did you say? 1920? Alethea Nagata: About 1920. Wheeler: But his father— Alethea Nagata: Was here earlier. Wheeler: Earlier. Alethea Nagata: He arrived in the U.S. 1905, right after the San Francisco earthquake. And that’s where their journey sort of began. And he―um, my grandfather did various jobs along the way, and then―in 1905―and then he landed in Orange County, where there were, a few, I believe, a few Japanese already there. And so, he started the, the growing peppers. Wheeler: And became the Pepper King? Alethea Nagata: Well, [smiles] that’s what they called him. Wheeler: [laughs] Alethea Nagata: Anyway, that was sort of the beginning of the peppers. Wheeler: Very good. Well, how did you two meet? George Nagata: Well, uh, that was after, after the World War II. Well, uh— Wheeler: So, it’s a substantial difference then— George Nagata: yea, [nods] Wheeler: —in the time that you came and when you met. Alethea Nagata: Yes! Well this was after the war, so— Wheeler: Okay. Alethea Nagata: So, there— Wheeler: In the, in the interim, tell us where you went to school then, um. Were you in school in, um? George Nagata: Oh, I was a, a, in school in, in, Oceanside, before evacuation. The problem was that, uh, when we moved to Oceanside in 1940, my father got sick, yeah. We were building a house so we could move to Oceanside from Bellflower, California where he had farmed, and I was about fifteen years old. And he was building his house and then he said “I got a backache, and it’s really bad.” So, I took him to a doctor, and the doctor says “I can’t help you.” He said “You gotta go to a specialist.” And, uh, we were, uh, uh, broke because we just moved and we put all the money into building the house and, and preparing the land and so, uh, my dad went to the doctor and they found out he had pleurisy and so they put him in the hospital and uh, uh, he was in the hospital for three months! And, uh, we had to commute from Oceanside to the Los Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Angeles every day. So, my mother said “Let’s, uh, live with a friend in Los Angeles where it’s closer to see dad.” So, we, uh, my mother and I went to live with this friend of our family and we commuted to the hospital every night from there. From Downey to Los Angeles. And so, I was living in Downey, so I had to still go to school, so I registered at Downey High and went to school there a while. But, before we moved—when we moved to Oceanside, I started school in Oceanside and went about a month, or a month and a half to Oceanside. Then I transferred back to Downey and then once my dad got out of the hospital I went back to Oceanside and my dad couldn’t work. So, my mother did all the work. And, uh, I went back to Oceanside but my studies all messed up because of moving all the time, and, uh, so— Wheeler: Were you farming at the time? George Nagata: No, um, my mother was doing the farming. But we helped out as much as possible. We were absolutely broke! When my dad got sick, it cost us a lot of money to take care of him. So, we were—so, my mother had to go see friends to borrow money from them, because we couldn’t get any money. We didn’t have any property, anything to— We had an old automobile and an old truck, [Mrs. Nagata chuckles] so— Wheeler: What kind of farming did you do, what—? George Nagata: Uh, just had five acres of strawberries. Wheeler: Oh! That’s exciting. George Nagata: With strawberries, you plant the first year, and take the runner, and plant the runner, so you don’t harvest till second year! So, when we were farming there the first year, we planted a little bit of Italian squash, and we sold it to San Francisco, because the market was better there, and that’s how we were able to feed ourselves, and also, we went to work for other farmers. We did a bit of harvesting, but they, uh, wanted me to drive a horse with a cultivator— Wheeler: [laughs] George Nagata: —because my dad taught me how to do it, and they needed a person to drive the horse. So, I was assigned to do that every day! I had to harness the horse and get the cultivator, and cultivate the crop! Wheeler: And now, how, how old were you then when the second world war started: George Nagata: Well, I was sixteen. Wheeler: And tell us a little bit about—since you had not met each other at that time— George Nagata: No, no— Alethea Nagata: Not yet. George Nagata: No— Wheeler: Tell me how you— Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 George Nagata: No, that was before the war. Now, uh, come May, I think about the 15th of May of 1942, we were evacuated. We were ordered to go to the Santa Fe Train Depot, and load, get on this train. And so, they said that you could only take two suitcases each. And so, we went and bought a suit—suitcase for each of us. And, and we packed up our suitcase. We went to the train depot and we boarded a train in the morning, and they had NPs on the train. They wouldn’t let us open the window or anything. It’s all shaded. And we didn’t know where we were going. And about three o’clock in the afternoon, uh, we went and the train stopped in Barstow, and they gave us a sandwich so that, you know, then we continued to Poston, Arizona. And when we got to Arizona, they put us on a bus and transported us to the concentration camp, and at first we had to stuff the mattress with straw because there was nothing there. They had to make―we got there at 8:30, 9 o’clock at night and we had to make our own bed. They gave us a cot and for each of us and so we went to sleep, and— Wheeler: How long were you there? [clears her throat] George Nagata: We were—Well, I was, I myself, was there only for a little over a year. And I, I was a, a—my friend said―he was going to Chicago―“Don’t you wanna go to Chicago?” I said “Yeah, I’ll call along, tag along with you, because I don’t know the country. I want to go.” So, I went to Chicago myself, with this friend and I, I learned how to be a auto mechanic, because I worked in the shop. There is a lot of people who were experienced mechanics and they taught me how to do all this repair. So, we had a full garage and all these people would teach me. So I was pretty confident that I could make a living. So, I went to Chicago and got a job as a mechanic. And, and I worked there for about four or five months, and, uh, my dad said that they gotta leave the camp, because they’re asking everybody to leave. So, my dad says “Meet me in Colorado. I’m going to see if we could do a little farming there.” So, um, I gave my job up and I went to Grand Junction, Colorado, and my father―the reason my father said that we could do some farming was because his nephew was from Hawaii and Santa Fe, New Mexico in a concentration camp, and his assets were frozen because he was an enemy Asian. But that money will be released if you want it for farming, and he said you’ll loan us the money, whatever you want. So, he said that he could come and live on the farm with us. So, my dad took him up on it, and we borrowed the money from him, and we started a little farm and I went to work for some man that owned a seed company. And he said “Why don’t you farm for me?” And he said “Go drive a tractor.” Well, I never drove a tractor, but anyway he says “You know how to drive?” I says “Yeah, I know how to drive.” So, I went there then he looked at me and he said “You don’t know how to drive.” Wheeler: [laughs] How long were you in Colorado? George Nagata: I was in Colorado ‘til 1944. From say ’43 to ’44, was it ’45 that I came to California? [turns to his wife] Alethea Nagata: [starts to laugh, as does Linda] I think so. I’m not sure what happened with you. George Nagata: We were farming and this man who owned this seed company was a cook. We never, I never got paid for working for him or then he said that if could grow some onion seed, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 that’s what the land leases to England, and he said “I’ll pay you for growing that thing.” And when it come to the end, we harvested it and gave him the seed, and I never seen a dime of it. Wheeler: Oh my! [Mrs. Nagata chuckles] George Nagata: And I asked the farmer that was next door who was also a evacuee that come out of a concentration camp to do a little farming. There was about five or six together and they were farming and, uh, they grew the onion seed for him. There was four or five other farmers. They said “Oh, that’s a good deal.” They all grew onion seed. And the company in England sent a check directly to those farmers. And the guy in the seed company, he really got mad and he said “They were supposed to pay me. And they said that if I sent it direct, that I was supposed to get a commission.” And my friend says “Okay, I’ll pay you commission, whatever you want.” He says “No, that won’t do.” He says “I want the check and that’s the only way I’ll accept it.” So everybody took the check and signed it and gave it to him, and they didn’t see a dime! [shrugs his shoulders incredulously and laughs] Wheeler: Oh. Wow! George Nagata: They said “We were stupid, because there’s no recourse because we signed [gestures with both hands to indicate signing a document] off the check.” [raises hands to indicate giving something up] So, uh, and this guy had a big farm in, uh, in Gilroy, California. And all my friend says is “Hey, forget it.” He says “You’re not going to get paid,” and sure enough― Wheeler: So, you left and came back to California, then? George Nagata: So, uh, after the war, we were allowed to come back to California, so I came to California to see how we could get back and where we could go. And, a friend of ours, uh, had a friend in Vista and he was a doctor and he―they own an avocado grove, and there was a house on it with a little shack there that was a chicken coop converted into a room. So, when we moved to California, he said “Stay in this chicken coop for a while.” [Mrs. Nagata chuckles] So, what we did―we just―I loaded the truck up and a little pickup and we brought all of our stuff over. And we lived in the chicken coop and we were looking for land where we could farm a lease. We don’t have enough money to buy any property, so we, uh, uh, found, uh, uh, thirty acres of land that he wanted to sell. But, he said “I tell you what I’ll do. I’ll lease, lease it to you, uh, and, uh, you have to buy the property after one year.” So, we decided we’d better go ahead and get that land. So, we went there. There’s no house or anything. So, we put up a tent and lived in the tent and the houses were hard to get because right after the war there was nothing. There was a prehab house that was on sale. It’s not made out of, uh, wood. It’s, it’s, uh, the wood is hemlock, but it’s more of a composition material and we bought that and put it together and we lived in this house. And then, uh,― Wheeler: This was in 1945? George Nagata: [nods] 1945. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Wheeler: Okay. Let’s stop and, and have Aletheatell us about what― Alethea Nagata: Well, so this is, this is before the camp. Wheeler: Right. Alethea Nagata: And my father was―had a farm in Rancho Santa Margarita. He rented land. That was before it was turned into Camp Pendleton. And, [clears her throat] and he was raising strawberries there. And that’s when the, um, when the war broke out and the FBI picked him up there, um, in Rancho Santa Margarita. Well, he was living in San Luis Rey, but he was going back and forth to Santa Margarita. He rented the property from Rancho Santa Margarita, from a gentleman named Whitman. [clears throat] And, uh, uh, [clears throat] and then, um, he was―the FBI came to this ranch Santa Margarita and picked him up. And I was in San Marcos, living with my grandparents. And that’s where they picked up my grandfather, the same day. Wheeler: Was this Kiso? Alethea Nagata: Yes, Kiso. And they took my father and Kiso to the San Diego jail, and they stayed overnight there. And then [clears throat], and then they transferred them to a, I believe it’s a Tohanga, California, in Los Angeles. And so, we as a family were able to go and see them. And that’s where our journey, uh, begins with our family getting ready to go to camp. ‘Cuz I was going to Escondido High School, and then, uh, because the war had broken out, we, uh, we had to, uh, go to get ready to go to camp. And my uncle was trying to decide whether to move our whole family to Colorado because, uh, as long as you’re not on the west coast, you could, you could, uh, you know, farm, uh, in Colorado, or probably in the Midwest. But, my father, uh, said not to go, but to go to camp. So that’s what we did. We all got to, got ready to go to camp. Wheeler: And where was the― Alethea Nagata: And we ended up in Poston. Wheeler: Oh. Alethea Nagata: Um, my experience was not, uh, as, as harsh as his [points to Mr. Nagata], because, um, other family members had gone a little earlier and did the beds and things. So, um, I didn’t―I―my grandmother wasn’t in very good condition. So, we probably went a couple of days later. And so, uh, the cots and things, the ones that went first, you know, got theirs, or got it ready for us. So, we―we ended up in Camp One in Poston, Arizona and I believe you ended up in Poston [turning her head to look at Mr. Nagata], but in a different, uh― Wheeler: Different section? Alethea Nagata: Block. They were broken up into blocks. Wheeler: So, you had quite an experience before you’d even gotten married and established your― Alethea Nagata: Oh, yes! [laughing] Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Wheeler: ―careers in farming. Um, tell us about when you were allowed to come back. What changed your lives after that, besides getting married and meeting each other? Alethea Nagata: Well, my father and grandfather were sent to, uh, to Santa Fe, New Mexico and Lordsburg, New Mexico. They were in different facilities from us. They were, uh―my grandfather was released earlier than my father, was sent to the Poston camp where we were. And then my father was released, uh, I believe about 1944, and, um, and he came back to Poston. But, uh, in the meantime, we were living separately. Wheeler: Yes. Um, when you came back then, where did―when you came back, where did you―? You probably came back to Oceanside? George Nagata: [nods] We came back to Oceanside. Wheeler: And who― Alethea Nagata: My, my father and uh, uncle, and uh, my grandfather’s place was in San Marcos. Wheeler: Okay. Alethea Nagata: And my father had a place in San Luis Rey. And so, uh, his―his farm―we left the farm in, um―my grandfather’s farm was left in charge of a vice principal of Escondido High School. And he, he took over and―and we hired a, a family man to come in and oversee the place. And, uh, they lived in my grandfather’s house. There was a main house and then there was a kitchen area. And so, the people who, uh, the vice principal hired was a―well their name was Tarbutton. [laughs] I remember the name. And um―uh, the kitchen area was a―was a fairly large, and so the family was able to live there. And the main house, uh, was left, just left. And, uh, so when we came back from camp, that’s where we fir―we landed in San Marcos where my grandfather’s place. And my father had returned from camp just, just a―[shakes her head and tries to speak] when he was able, they were allowed to come back. So, he came back by himself with, I believe, my uncle’s wife and, and they planted, um, zucchini, I believe, some kind of a early crop. So, then he, then he, then he came back to Poston and picked us up. So, then we all came back later, just a little bit later. 1945. Wheeler: Wow. So, you were just― Alethea Nagata: But we do have, we had a place to―at least we had a home. Wheeler: Yes. Alethea Nagata: Yeah. And, uh― Wheeler: Exactly. Alethea Nagata: Mr. Grave, the vice principal, uh, took care of everything for us. So that was very nice. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Wheeler: So, when did you graduate from high school, then? Alethea Nagata: I graduated in camp. Wheeler: Oh, did you? Alethea Nagata: Uh-huh. George Nagata: Well, I didn’t get to go to school. Wheeler: Okay, that―and that was probably not uncommon. George Nagata: Yeah. Wheeler: So, then actually― Alethea Nagata: And it wasn’t accepted either, or― George Nagata: So, when I was in Chicago, I wanted to go to night school. And I applied there, and they said that, that concentration camp I was in was not an acclaimed school, so you’re going to have to start over again. So, I says “Oh, I can’t start over again.” [both he and Wheeler laugh] So, uh, I didn’t get any education at all. Wheeler: No, but sometimes it’s not just all education in the school. So, what happened then after ’45 that you came back and started again? George Nagata: Uh, it was very tough [shaking his head]. We didn’t have any equipment, and so, so [cell phone starts to ring]. Excuse me. [reaches into pocket for cell phone] I don’t know who is calling. [looks at screen, and shakes his head] Scam! [Wheeler and Alethea Nagata laugh] George Nagata: So, when we got back to California, um, I went to the bank to borrow money and they laughed at me and said “You know, to tell you the truth, I’m not loaning you my money. He says “The bank has a depositor. They all deposit the money, and I’m responsible for it. So, I gotta have a collateral, whatever you own. But, I don’t own a thing, ‘cuz I can’t loan you any money.” So, in order for us to farm, we had to have a little bit of backing and so, uh, the L.A. produce market was loaning money to the growers, to advance the money, and they get all the produce. So, we borrowed the money from them, and started growing and sometimes it pays, and sometimes it doesn’t, because the market was, you know, some oversupply of tomatoes and things. And I would go over there and I would borrow money from, uh, for uh, buy fertilizer on credit. And they would just loan me the money, and one company there, I owed about three thousand dollars, and they wanted to get paid. I said “I don’t have any money right now. So, can you wait?” But what happened was that I planted, uh, twenty acres of strawberries and it was ready to harvest when I got hailed out. Because all the hail was just deforming the whole plant. And never produced a single berry! And so, I had all this money tied up into strawberries. And I can’t harvest anything. And the supply companies, this was, uh, uh, the fertilizer and insecticide I bought, I couldn’t pay for it. So, they wanted to sue me. And they reported it to the Credit Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Bureau that I haven’t paid for one year and they’re going to, uh, to file a lawsuit against me. And so, uh, when they had filed, I went back to the produce house, and I begged them to loan me some more money. I gotta pay that guy, or he’s going to sue me. And so, uh, I was able to borrow enough money to pay the, that fertilizer company off. And there was more, other companies, the seed companies. And I owed them money. They said they would hold off. And so next year I figured well, what I’m going to do is double the acreage of strawberries, and try to get the money back. And I planted forty acres of strawberries and we started harvesting in April and there was a beautiful crop! My God! Everybody was envious. I was harvesting 4,000 boxes a day. And all of a sudden it started to rain. [Wheeler and Alethea Nagata chuckle] And for two weeks straight! And it just destroyed the whole berries. And so, uh, his uncle [he points to his wife] was familiar with some freezer company in Fallbrook there and they talked him into starting a strawberry freezer! And, uh, he come to me and said “Hey, why don’t you invest in this. All the growers will put up money, and we’ll go ahead and process the strawberries.” And we were, before that we were sending our frozen berries to Smucker’s. Well, they paid pretty good. Well, I said “Fred, I think we shouldn’t go into this business. It’s a risky business.” He says “No, it’s a sure thing.” But, his company went bankrupt so he got a job in Oxnard or― Alethea Nagata: Ventura. George Nagata: Ventura, for his chili company. And he let us go and left his freezer go. But we were members of the Freezers so we had to ship it to him. So, I―the second crop, the rain had stopped, so we sent all of our berries to this freezer, and, and, uh, to buy the can and buy the sugar, well, somebody has to guarantee the payment on it. See? And so, about four or five of us volunteered to go ahead and sign the agreement that we’re responsible. Well, at the end of the season, they can’t pay for the cans, they can’t pay for the sugar. And so, they froze my bank account! Because I was one of the guaranteers. And hell, I couldn’t―I had workers, and I couldn’t―and my brother said “Hey, they froze the account. We can’t pay the, the help. We’ve got to pay the help.” So, “Oh, my god.” We went back to the produce house and borrowed some more money, and, and we were able to pay American Can and sugar. All of us growers put up the money to pay this off. And then the company went bankrupt. The strawberry in a frozen can, we―W.H. Ruth Company is a marketing ____________, and they put it in a cold storage. And they couldn’t sell it, so they had it in cold storage so long that the storage fee ate up all of it. [chuckles] Wheeler: Right. George Nagata: And so, you know, we were out of― Wheeler: And there’s the― George Nagata: We took a beating. Oh my God. Wheeler: It was quite an adjustment after the war, getting established. We’ve kind of skipped over your coming back. You came back to San Marcos. And tell us a little bit more about how your family was farming and had you married at this point? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Alethea Nagata: No. Wheeler: You hadn’t met each other. Alethea Nagata: No. Not yet. Wheeler: Okay. So, you were living in San Marcos. You were living in Oceanside? George Nagata: San Luis Rey, at that time. Wheeler: San Luis Rey. Alethea Nagata: But, he, he, uh, I’m getting confused now a little bit. But, um, there was so much that went on. We came back and, um, my grandfathers settled in San Marcos, and we―and our family were in San Luis Rey. So, um, my―I guess, my father―well, all I remember was coming back from camp and my father made me drive the Caterpillar and he was―because we didn’t have any help. And so, he―he got on the back and―and he wanted me to drive the Caterpillar. Well, I had never driven it before. But I―that stands out in my mind as an incident that I do remember, that when we first came back, that’s what he made me do! [laughs, as does Wheeler] Wheeler: And you had just graduated from high school at that point. Alethea Nagata: I had already finished in camp. Wheeler: So that was pretty, uh, different for women at any― Alethea Nagata: Well, my sisters― Wheeler: ―any _________ Alethea Nagata: There were three of us girls. The first three. And my sister drove trucks and, I mean, she did all kinds of things. Both of my sisters. And so, it wasn’t so outrageous. And my dad was extremely kind to women. Wheeler: Mmm. Alethea Nagata: For someone from Japan, he took care of the women. So, I do to this day remember that for being a Japanese man, that he―he respected women. So, that’s always been very nice. But, um, uh, the farm, well, he―we grew―he grew asparagus. And he still did grow chili peppers at that time. Wheeler: At that time, had they done the diversity that they do now? Or was that just beginning? Alethea Nagata: Then―then―then, the diversity began, um, when my younger brother kind of started taking over. Oh, my father was still involved with it. They grew romaine, and tomatoes, and things like that. So― Wheeler: As we look at the farmers now,― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 11 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Alethea Nagata: Strawberries, also. Wheeler: ―and the some fields will be waiting, like, some year we’ll plant, but others have those plants about 6 inches high. Others they’ll be almost grown. You can see how the changes. How did that all come about, just by trial and error? Or by deliberate planning? Alethea Nagata: Well, there’s, um―my father and my brother grew cauliflower, um, and that is not a money-making crop. But, they, they grew asp―the cauliflower because it kept the workers so that you had to maintain the workers, you know. That was a part of the problem, also, is to have enough help. Wheeler: Mm-hmm. Alethea Nagata: And so the reason for even planting it was, um, to keep the help, you know. That was quite a, um, problem in keeping―[turns her head toward Mr. Nagata] you know about keeping the workers. So― George Nagata: Getting back to her uncle, Fred. He took a liking to me and he wanted me to go around with him into like the Farm Bureau, and this labor, uh, the Bracero program, where we had association. And I spoke with one of the Board of Directors, and he took me all the places and introduced me to all the things that, and he was a, a, a U.C. Davis graduate. So, we would go into U.C. Davis and, and try to get, uh, the university to experiment, develop a new variety of berries for, suitable for southern California. And they said that uh there was no budget for it. So, we went to the Legislature and had one of our representatives, um, pass a budget so they could experiment. So, they, the university assigned a man and sent him down here where and we were trying new strawberries, grapes, and after a while it was successful that it helped us all survive the strawberry industry in, in southern California, from Oxnard to San Diego. We got a new variety and kept improving and improving our, our strawberries. And everybody was able to stay in business. Uncle Fred was one of the instigators in that. And he says one day to me “Hey, I got a blind date set up for you.” [Mrs. Nagata chuckles] We’re going to the Palladium.” [Alethealaughs] So, I wondered who it was? And it was her! [all three of them laugh] And so that’s how we got together. Alethea Nagata: Well, my uncle Fred was a, um, he was drafted into the Army when we were in camp. He was, yeah,― Wheeler: He didn’t ______________ Alethea Nagata: He was in the artillery, yeah. And he had, he saw action in Europe, and― [clears her throat] Wheeler: Hhmmm. This was quite a― Alethea Nagata: Yes. Wheeler: ―with your fam―some of your family back in Japan. Some of you in camp. And then he’s fighting in the― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 12 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Alethea Nagata: The people in Japan were, were, couple of children that were left in Japan were from my grandfather. And, and, um, [clears throat] they were kind of farmed out. Because of the law, they were not able to come. He was not able to bring them later because one child was just born when my grandmother came to this country. She couldn’t handle a two-year-old boy and you know, on the, on the ship. So, they left two daughters in Japan, my grandfather did. And he had to, to farm them out and among relatives and, and the, the baby he had to farm out to a, a woman who would kind of take over childcare. And so, these poor women that were left in Japan, was pretty terrible, because of the law. And they were not able to come to the U.S. [clears throat]. So that’s a little background but― Wheeler: Yes. Those are things that are barriers and we have to really think about― Alethea Nagata: Well, see, yeah. Because it was the Asians that were, were in that kind of predicament, whereas it did not affect the Europeans. Wheeler: Yes. So, after, um, about, say up until 1960, did things start to turn around then, for the growth and the diversity? When did that really take hold? George Nagata: Uh, it took hold about ten years after they granted a experiment in southern California. First it was, uh, U.S.D.A. property and it’s on the beach, where it was a little too small to do an experiment so the, uh, university had a property there in, uh, in, uh, Orange County that, uh, belonged to the university so they moved the experimental plot to, uh, Irvine Ranch. And Irvine Ranch gave them, I think, about twenty or thirty acres to the university and they started experimenting there. And they developed various varieties and that’s when we were able to adapt a new variety of strawberries here, and it was very successful. Wheeler: That is very interesting because we’re known for good strawberries that we have. George Nagata: That’s true. Wheeler: Right now, do you grow a lot, different kinds of crops? George Nagata: Well, after we retired, in about 1980, we, uh, figured to stop growing, uh, any kind of crop because it is a gamble and we didn’t want to, because they’re growing a lot of tomatoes in Mexico and strawberries in Mexico. And it’s hard to compete with produce from foreign countries. And they flooded the market, and they just grow thousands and thousands of acres of tomatoes and strawberries, that you can’t compete with them. And so, we decided we’re going to quit the farming business. We’ll quit. And I asked Neal and one of my nephews to, if they were interested, and they said they would take it over. So, I, we gave it to them. And we were operating okay, but the nephew got into gambling and he, uh, the company money― Wheeler: But the, um, back to the, the way that agriculture has changed, and how you survived from one kind of crops to another. What kind of things have you done that have been innovative in making that happen? Like were you, you were probably growing some asparagus or some other things besides the cauliflower. George Nagata: Well, we started to grow the crops, like blueberries. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 13 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Wheeler: Okay. George Nagata: We put in about― Alethea Nagata: Cherimoya. George Nagata: ten acres of blueberries, and also the cherimoya, which is a fruit. I don’t know if you know what cherimoya is. It’s, um, [turns to his wife] what happened to the one I gave you? Alethea Nagata: I’ll, I’ll show it to her. Wheeler: There’s a lot of people that come here from all over the world, and they’d probably like to know that. George Nagata: And so, it hasn’t been very successful and the cherimoya takes a lot of labor, because you have to hand-pollinate those. But, uh, [looks to the left, off camera, and Mrs. Nagata reaches to the left to grab a cherimoya] Wheeler: Could you show that so―there we go. [Aletheaplaces the cherimoya on the table in front of Wheeler] Tell us about this little piece of fruit. George Nagata: This is a small one! They get about this big! [gestures a wider diameter than the actual fruit] Wheeler: Oh really! George Nagata: Mm-hmm. [Aletheapushes the fruit across the table to Wheeler, and then pulls it back to center it on the table between them] Wheeler: Okay, there we go. You see that now? Um, well, there’s a lot of us that don’t know what that is, or how do you use it? And how do you grow it? George Nagata: It ripens and there’s a lot of seeds inside. You have to sort the seed out. Alethea Nagata: And people who love it, love it. They just― Wheeler: Is it a fruit? Alethea Nagata: It’s a fruit. George Nagata: I don’t― Wheeler: So― George Nagata: I don’t care for it [laughs] Alethea Nagata: It’s sort of like a slightly banana flavor, but the people who grow up with it― Wheeler: Is it easy to grow in this climate, in this soil? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 14 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 George Nagata: It’s easy to grow, but hard to set. It doesn’t form a fruit. You have to handpollinate them. Wheeler: Oh! Very interesting! George Nagata: The flower is like a trumpet [holds his hand up to indicate an open trumpetshaped flower] so it can’t get the pollen inside, see. Wheeler: What do you eat it with? George Nagata: Yeah. Alethea Nagata: Well, um― Wheeler: Just by itself? Alethea Nagata: By itself, yeah. Wheeler: Like an apple? Alethea Nagata: Uh-huh. Wheeler: Very interesting. Alethea Nagata: Well, you have to remove the seeds, you know. But, yeah. Wheeler: So, this is very interesting in that we contribute so much to the agricultural industry in San Diego. It’s the fourth largest industry. So, you’ve contributed to this in so many ways. I’m fascinated by how you’ve had your ups and downs, the fact that there were times when the Japanese could not buy land here. There were times when they could, and how all these things change, and the incarceration was atrocious. But, you’ve survived it, and what do you see as the future of farming here? Is that a, too big a question? Alethea Nagata: It is a big, large question, because of the laws. How California is. George Nagata: They don’t want us to farm. Most of the politicians, they want to get rid of the farms. And that’s why they cut off the water for a lot of― Wheeler: That’s another thing that you’ve had to deal with, is the water situation. George Nagata: That’s right. Wheeler: And how is it so scarce now, and there’s, um, almost rationing. Well we’re restricted in how many times we can water our yards. So, so all of these things that impacted your livelihood, and we all want our children and our grandchildren to live happily ever after but that’s, it changes whether we like it or not. George Nagata: It changes. Alethea Nagata: I believe California was supplying United States with a lot of the, the vegetables and fruits, I believe. But I don’t know. California is really interesting. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 15 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Wheeler: Yes, it is. The citrus fruits have been shipped all over the world. And yet, at the same time you’re talking about the strawberries and how that has been impacted, too. But, what other things have you, in your interesting lifespan, what other things have you―would you like to share with our community, our, with our future, what, what would you, what is your secret as they famously say? George Nagata: Well, I don’t think there’s very much future in the farming business because the foreign countries like Chile, and all those South American countries are growing and shipping all the stuff here, and Mexico. That’s a wide-open country there. And I farmed there for a couple of years and an associate with a Mexican partner. I grew, planted 500 acres of strawberries, down there. [Mrs. Nagata laughs] And, I told my partner that his job was to get the pickers, and, and make the cooler big enough so where we could handle 500 acres of strawberries. You have to pre-cool those strawberries or they won’t ship. And when you cool them down to 34 degrees, just before freezing, there is, the food gets firm, and you could ship it to the United States without damaging the fruit. Well, when it grows 500 acres, the facilities won’t handle but pay one-tenth of what they, uh, What I told him that. Well, he says “my brothers all have coolers.” I said “They’re not prepared for that. You gotta prepare for that. It’s got to be a cool, cool, 34 degrees. It has to have kind of a vacuum cooled deal, and you gotta set it up.” And he said “Don’t worry. I’ll get them to do it.” He doesn’t do it. So, we lost 500 acres of berries! Wheeler: There’s, yes. Those kinds of things are, um, it’s part of the change and how we have to look at things more global. George Nagata: That’s true. Wheeler: And sometimes we get really busy and forget that. But is there any other, um, things that you think that we could be doing to enhance the way that food is prepared or grown? George Nagata: Well, the only thing you could probably grow is specialty crops. Like tomatoes, they grow by the thousand acres. The farmer down there grows five thousand acres of tomatoes. And you can’t compete with people like that. Wheeler: No. So, what’s changing? George Nagata: So, uh, you gotta change the kind. But there’s very little crop that you could put in that, that you could sell to the mass market. Um, and, I don’t know what we can grow. We’ve been studying it for about ten years to see what is profitable. But, at first the blueberry was a very profitable business, but now everybody grows it, and they grow in Mexico, and they are earlier than we are, and they flood the market. And they also come from Chile, and they just flood the market. And that’s why they sell those blueberries so cheap. Wheeler: Right. The fact that we have labor and we have water sources that we are constantly looking at as to how, what we need and what we have to― George Nagata: Well, the trouble is, the workers don’t want to work on the farms, and they― Wheeler: The lack of interest in farming. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 16 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Alethea Nagata: There’s the, there’s the politics. Some of it’s about the politics. Wheeler: Yes, unfortunately that’s everywhere. George Nagata: All these people they’re coming into the United States. None of them are working on the farms. They want other kinds of jobs. Wheeler: Yeah, yeah, that’s true. Well, there’s a lot of things that we’re trying to work out and I so appreciate your input and to, well, thank you more for the contributions you’ve made. It’s been phenomenal to hear your stories. Is there anything else you have to add, beca―? George Nagata: Right now, I can’t think. [they all laugh] Wheeler: Well, I cannot thank you enough. It’s been absolutely delightful. Thank you again. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 17 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 GLOSSARY: American Can (pg.10) Bracero program (pg.12) Camp Pendleton (pg.7) Caterpillar (pg.11) Cherimoya (pg.13-14) Credit Bureau (pg.9) Farm Bureau (pg.12) Freezers (pg.10) Grave, Mr. (pg.8) Heinz (pg.2) Irvine Ranch (pg.13) Kiso (pg.7) Kumamoto, Japan (pg.1) Poston, Arizona (pg.5,7-8) Rancho Santa Margarita (pg.7) Santa Fe Train Depot (pg.5) Smucker’s (pg.10) Tarbutton (pg.8) Tasuke, Wor (pg.2) Tohanga, California (pg.7) Yaskochi, Kane (pg.2) W. H. Ruth Company (pg.10) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 18 2023-05 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Nagata, George and Alethea. Interview transcript, November 16, 2022. Description An account of the resource Oral History of 2nd generation (George and Alethea Nagata) who represent four generations of Japanese Americans contributing to the agricultural industry of North County San Diego, California. During their interview the Nagatas discuss their family history, their forced internments at Poston Relocation Center in Yuma, Arizona during World War II, their lives post-internment, and their working lives as agricultural laborers and family farmers. The Nagatas discuss their operations in detail and muse on the future of farming in the United States. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alethea Nagata George Nagata Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lucy Wheeler Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-16 Subject The topic of the resource Agricultural laborers -- California Agricultural laborers -- Colorado Family farms -- California Japanese Americans Japanese Americans -- Forced removal and internment, 1942-1945 Poston Relocation Center (Ariz.) World War, 1939-1945 -- Concentration camps -- Arizona -- Yuma Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado Southern California Yuma (Ariz.) 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NagataGeorgeandAlethea_WheelerLucy_transcript.pdf Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0fdc360b76778aa3cb86f76a275e9ed3.pdf d1536bca656a02dae88e07a6d8a2a462 PDF Text Text JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer and I'm interviewing Jake Northington as part of the Cal State San Marcos University Archive's Oral History Project. The interview took place on Friday, November 22nd, 2019 at the University Library, California State University San Marcos. Jake, thank you very much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about some of your formative years, especially how they relate to your passion for photography. So, I wanted to ask you a few questions about your childhood and early adult life. And I wanted to start off just by asking, where were you born? Jake Northington: That I don't know the answer to. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I grew up as an orphan and I lived in many cities, many states. Uh, I've seen a couple of birth certificates. So, not really sure, but, I grew up in East St. Louis, Illinois. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That's why I grew up. Visintainer: So you grew up in East St. Louis. Was there any ways in which your childhood or your upbringing influenced your photography? Northington: Uh, yes. I would say yes. You know, uh, if you've ever heard of a guy by the name of Gordon Parks. So throughout the fifties and sixties, he photographed the civil rights movement and a lot of activists socially. So, seeing those type of pictures and watching movies produced by Spike Lee and other people through Black films, they would use a lot of still shots to enter into the movie or to exit out of the movie. So, the beginning and the ending to bookcase the movies, they would show a lot of still shots from Gordon Parks. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: You know, so that was probably the first time I saw images like that and the images Gordon Parks takes in particular of Black people living everyday life, you know? So, and that introduced me to other photographers that particularly took pictures of Black people that you would never see that I wouldn't see in magazines or on TV or anything like that. So. Visintainer: And when you say he took pictures of Black people living everyday life, are there any images that you recall that really stand out to you? Northington: Yes. Uh, he has a picture of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King smiling together at a banquet function. And it is like [19]66 or [19]67. And these are two people that have polarizing views of what Black people should do in America socially. So, you have one guy who wants to fully work with the system and you have one guy who wants to fully oppose the system. So, you have two different dynamics at play from the same, uh, atmosphere from the same starting point growing up at the same time yet they have two different ways of going about it. And then you see these people cordial and friendly. So that's an amazing picture for people in the Black community to see that you can have opposing views and still work for the same progression of your people. So. Visintainer: Okay. Thank you. Did he take pictures as well of less famous Black people? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 1 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: Yes. Yes, because that's, again, the start. So, from the research, it seems that he took a lot of pictures of jazz musicians. He even did short films himself, you know? So it was all encompassing. He became more famous for the photography, but he also did films. I believe he wrote a book as well. And, uh, so it's, it's a little, you know, all-encompassing to produce an entire artwork with the varying degrees and various wrinkles. So, it's not just one avenue and that's kind of the way I take my artwork, because photography's just one element of it. I didn't start off taking pictures. I started off drawing pictures. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I draw still and that's still the basis of it all is drawing. So, I would consider taking pictures, just drawing with the camera. Visintainer: Alright. So when did you make the transition from drawing into photography? Northington: Just three years ago, in one class here at this school. I took a--it's a digital photography class taught by Nancy diBenedetto. She's in the Navy and she was an adjunct professor at that moment. I don't know if that may be in her second or third year teaching here. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, in, uh, she thought I took pretty good pictures. So she gave me a few pointers. She kind of showed us a lot of stuff in the class. You know, we did so many field trips to go to different arenas. We went to farms, we went to parks and, you know, on campus and she put us everywhere. And then we went to see an photography exhibit downtown at Balboa Park they had a photography exhibit and the whole class had to go there. So, to see the photos you take and then be able to compare them to professional photography. It gives you, you know, something to look for or it allows you to see things you could correct yourself, you know? So, and that's how I kind of see photography, you making your own corrections, you know? And then if you're satisfied, then it's a good photo for you. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Because they can all be looked at so differently. So, that's how hard is. Visintainer: Was it intimidating when you first started out comparing yourself to people in exhibitions? Northington: Not at all, not at all because I'm a person that always went to art museums. I went to plenty of exhibitions prior to this class, you know? Art is my whole world. So, I see everything as art: cars, clothes, shoes, a pencil, you know? I used to play with my mechanical pencils and take them apart, put them back together to see how it was put together, why they chose these colors, why they have the writing on it, you know? And for me, all of that is art because somebody with an artistic mind had to design your mechanical pencil, your eraser, your--your steering wheel on your car. So, it all plays a part. So, I wouldn't consider my stuff in a comparison measure to be less than it's just, this is the way I see it. That's the way they see it. There's two different eyes behind the camera. So, I wouldn't do that, but I'd look at their work and see like, “Okay, there's more clarity here, there's more depth.” There's more layers to their photography versus me taking a picture of a person. And there's just a wall in the background. There's no layers. So, I would be able to get some type of a scope of these are other things that are possible with the photos and then talking about the mood of the person. Can I really see the mood? I got more of that from watching modeling shows, you know? Of how your eyes can give away a smile or your eyes can give away a frown without the facial expression. So, then I have to input that into Transcribed by Julia Friedman 2 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 the photo. And now I'm trying to communicate that with the person in the photo to get the look I'm looking for. So, you know, it's a little bit of elements all over the place to put it all together. Visintainer: Okay. And do you started off with drawing, so I'm assuming that your experience and your learning as you started off with drawing, transferred into photography pretty well as well, but I was curious, were there any specific lessons or techniques that you took from your background in drawing and art that transferred directly into photography? Northington: Yes. The biggest thing I would say is filling up the space. So, before I started taking pictures, I would see a lot of people take pictures on social media and all these other things. I'm not a picture person myself. So, I don't just sit down and take pictures of myself or other people. I didn't-- I never did that, but I would do it mentally. So, you know, and you would see a picture or a background mentally before I even had the camera. So, I'm already doing it in my head. And then, uh, you know, people would, most people do it. They go, “Oh, that's a nice sunset.” Or, “Look at those mountains.” You're taking a visual picture in your head, you know, and this is why they can sell their painting at Marshalls. You go to Marshalls and you pick up the painting of the canvas of the Carlsbad beach area or the pier in Oceanside. You can sell that because it's a nice visual and you just capture that. And then, uh, I think everybody does that to a different degree. So again, picking up the camera, I've already had that exercise in my mind. So, from drawing, I got filling up the picture because I started drawing cartoons. So now I come in class and I'm taking art class. The professor would say, “You have to fill up the background, it's empty,” you know? You make it too one-dimensional or two-dimensional with no layers. You want to make it pop. You want to make it stand out. You want--so you need to add three, four, five, ten dimensions, whatever. Keep adding layers. So, filling up the whole sheet of paper and making an entire scene is what I took over to the photography side from, from drawing. Visintainer: Okay. And that's interesting. And when you mentioned cartoons, especially, so when I think of cartoons, I think of panels. Northington: Yes. Vistintainer: And I think of you know, word balloons and things that do fill up a panel there. Um, but oftentimes there's real kind of blank or not defined backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Do you try to do something similar with your portraiture, especially? Or do you utilize the backgrounds, uh, in a way that would be maybe different from how--? Northington: I would say it's both and it all depends on the intent of that photo. So, if the intent of that photo includes the background, then I'll make the black background a little more apparent and then if it doesn't, then you kind of shoot an aperture mode to, you know, to fizzle out the background, you know? And that's like a new app on everybody's phone, everybody's shooting in portrait mode on their, on their iPhone and it'll fuzz out the background, you know? So that's, if that's necessary for what I'm trying to get across then yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 3 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: If not, I'll really include the background, you know? Specifically with the photos you've seen with the sunlight actually being included in the background though, it's ninety-three million miles away so they say. Visintainer: Alright. Um, I think we've already covered a little bit about your instruction with tutoring, or tutoring that you had as well as your background in art. So, I kind of wanted to move on and ask you kind of in a reverse question, have you taken on any students or mentees yourself? Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Or in, so what advice did you give them? Northington: The same advice I get. And you know, one of the bigger things that probably the number one piece of advice I got from Nancy diBenedetto is just keep taking pictures. You have to make all the mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over. And then next year and I take ten thousand more pictures. I'm comparing my pictures now to my pictures, you know? And that's an easier fix and it allows you to grow within yourself versus I'm going to compare my pictures to somebody that's already in the magazine shooting for Getty Photos. You don't want to, you know, that's a big jump and you may never get there. And then understanding how much equipment plays a role. You could shoot with a, you know, a Polaroid camera from some convenience store that you got from CVS versus shooting with a $10,000 camera, you know, from Best Buy. That same person is going to produce a different quality of photo just from the equipment alone. So, learning that, you know, uh, learning, setting the background, and implanting the person versus trying to take the person and implant the background, you know? That was a big thing I learned too. So, that's something I teach some people. I have about four or five right now, just picked up a new guy, Shamar. So, I got about four or five students here at school that I kind of help out and assist with all the things that I've been told. And then I try to help them just develop their own way, you know? Don't take pictures like me, take pictures like you, you know? Don't become a copycat. You see what you saw in it. And I'll just try to help with, you know, technical things, things that may stand out to make this possibly not as good of a picture. But I can't help you with what you saw, what you see, what you want to produce. I don't want to touch that because that's for you. Visintainer: Okay. There were a couple things I wanted to come back to. Um, one of them is you mentioned you got to make the same mistakes over and over and over. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some mistakes in photography that you made over and over and over before realizing--? Northington: Lighting. Visintainer: Lighting? Northington: Lighting. Uh, there's so many small things. There may be twenty-five or thirty things you have to do before you take a picture. And if you forget one of them, you'll be mad once you go to editing, you know? You walk outside, the sunlight is in one space in the sky. If you forget that and throw it out of your mind, then you're going to have a bunch of dark shadows on everybody's face. So, unless that was what you was exactly trying to do, then you kind of threw a lot of your pictures off. You want Transcribed by Julia Friedman 4 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 the light on them, you know. Learning the red, the orange and the blue and the white lights, you know, using the application on your actual camera, the white balance, you know, that's something that I didn't even pay attention to. Even though Nancy taught us in class, I spent a lot of months not using my white balance and you'll get a yellowish undertone to people's skin and the colors scheme will be off. And now in editing, you have to go through and try to mute all that yellowish and greenish because you didn't do a proper white balance, you know? So stuff like that, I had to waste a bunch of photos and SD cards because I didn't, you know, take that into account. So where are my light source come from? Having enough light for the individual. Focus--my focus points, you know, the different variations you could, adjust your camera to, you know? Shooting in portrait or shooting in, you know, a fast pace or a slow pace. Understanding that, uh, your camera only captures so much depending on the lens. So, if I have a $700 lens, I could do a little bit more than that standard lens you come with, but I have a $2,000 lens I can do even a little bit more. It allows for even more mistakes because that vibration control works a lot better in the $2,000 lens than it does in that standard lens you get. So, understanding all of those things before I even take the photo. Using a tripod to take photos versus handheld, because nobody can sit still, you have a heartbeat, your body can’t sit still. You have to hold your breath and pause everything. You know, that’s just like, you know? Anybody that does weaponry, you learn the same thing. When you have to shoot a rifle on a range, you have to hold your breath, squeeze in between your breath, because that’s the only still you’re going to get. It’s the same thing. I think that’s what you call it, “shooting with the camera,” cause yeah, it’s some of the same techniques. So, anybody that shoots rifles, it’s kind of the similar techniques. For putting it’s a similar technique. So, shooting free throws, similar technique, you know, those positions, you have to pause that breath. So, all of those things at once before you even take the picture, if you rush through it, you just wasted some time. I had to do it. And then I look back at my photos from the beginning. Because I even have a book that's not out for anybody to see because it's a book of mistakes, you know? And I keep it and I have it in my room and I look at it from time to time. I can't--this is where it started, you know? A lot of blown out pictures because it's too much light, a lot of yellow skin because no white balance, a lot of blurry pictures because my arm is moving too much. And I have to keep it to look at my mistakes to remind myself, to keep all of these things in mind before I shoot the picture. So, you know, that’s, it’s a part of it and it’s--it's needed. Visintainer: Yeah. Do you keep all of your photos that you take? Northington: Yes. So, I have quite a few hard drives so, and the only thing I don't like is they usually last, you know, four or five years and you got to switch them up again. Don't like that, but you know, because you have to keep paying for that over and over and over, but yeah, you should. I would tell people to keep them all because if you get rid of your mistakes, you can't see them. It's hard to improve like that. So, unless you’re always going to have a teacher right ahead of you constantly doing, you know. So it’s hard to self-improve without a constant teacher or a constant reminder of the things you need to work on. So, and I would employ people to do that on their own by always having a teacher because you’re being guided a little too much. Take your own steps. So. Visintainer: I think that's good advice. There was another thing I wanted to come back to and that was, you mentioned importing your subjects into your backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 5 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Visintainer: And forgive me if I'm not phrasing exactly how you did. And I thought that was really interesting because you do portraiture, you go out, you look for people that I assume that are, that you want to have that are subjects. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: So, I wanted to ask you a little bit about the process of how you choose your subjects. Northington: (laughs) Yeah. Visintainer: And then I guess the follow up, you know, beyond the process of how you choose your subjects, then how do you insert them into the backgrounds? Do you choose your backgrounds and look for a subject or, what do you do? Northington: I don’t even decide, it decides itself. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, just being a student, you have to walk around campus, you take enough classes, you’ll go into every building on campus. So, been here almost four years now. So, I’ve been in every building. As I’m always walking, I’m seeing these scenes, making mental notes. I want a picture right there. I want a picture right there. Mental note--it just built this bridge across the street. I need a picture right there from the bridge. So, you know, and there's a lot of tall buildings here. So, it gives for a lot of angles. A lot of birds-eye-views and worms-eye-views. So, it is a lot, it's enough layers here, even in a compact campus. So, all of those backgrounds are constantly piling up. So now I have all these backgrounds. Now it's about the people. Who do I want to use for the next photo? It's all that random, you know, but I don't want anybody too excited. I prefer a person who is on the edge of saying “No,” but they'll do it anyway. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That's what I want. I don't want somebody that, “Oh, I take a thousand pictures for social media every day.” No, they usually are too excited, too much to calm down. That's just been what I've seen just from taking pictures for three years. People that are over excited to take photos, it's usually for me. Other people may be different, but for me it's more difficult to get them to the look, the feel and the expression that I need for the photo. And that photo shoot would last two hours. When I could have got the picture in seven minutes with a person that's more calm and mundane and melancholy. We can get the photo in seven minutes and then now I can spend thirty minutes getting a bunch of photos to use for later. So that's more conducive for me. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, and I particularly want people who have never seen. So, the invisible people is what I want. Melancholy, invisible. That's the people I want: the unseen. You know, people walk around every day and pretend like homeless people are not standing on the street with a sign asking for water or food. Yet, they're walking a dog, picking up behind a dog, feeding the dog and walk right past a homeless human being, you know? So, we see this every day in society. So, the unseen get no support, no help, you know? They don't get to smile. They don't get to feel good about themselves, you know? We can change that. So that's a part of the social activism of my work. I want the people who are less Transcribed by Julia Friedman 6 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 recognized, the people who may then have such a good time in middle school or high school, got picked on. Maybe wasn't as tall as everybody else. Not as muscular, not as attractive, not as whatever, you know, "-ism” you want to use. Those people should be recognized, because everybody should be included. So, there’s no popularity contest with my photos. I’ve turned down more people than most. Because people that ask me to take their photos, it's probably ninety-seven percent time, it's a “No.” I say “no” every week. So (laughs). Visintainer: When do you say “yes” when somebody asks you to? Northington: If it's like a social, like, situation as I'm graduating? Okay. That's a necessary-- to capture this moment. You know, [if] I'm having a birthday party, you know, something like that. People celebrate different, you know, different holidays and stuff like that. So, those are understood situations. But when it's like, “Oh, can you take pictures of me? Can you take?”-- because it's a lot of that. You know, people are doing that with phones every day. But when they find out somebody has a camera and oh, you take pictures a little, you know, on a little higher level than a camera phone. “Oh, can you get these pictures of me for this or for this?” you know, I get some of the same people over and over and over. Even after I’ve taken pictures for them, they’ll keep coming back for more and more and more. No, no, no. That’s enough. You have a phone on your camera. That’s enough. You know, because I believe you’ve already accomplished what we needed to with the photos. You feel good about yourself, you know? And you’re walking around elevated. Good. We made it happen. That's so that's enough for me. So, I don't need to entertain that anymore. So, we trying to pick up the people who feel a little, you know, more lowly about themselves. Pick those people up. Visintainer: So, one of the things that I think separates beyond skill level, obviously that separates art and photography from say more commercial enterprises, like, you know, capturing a wedding or something like that is a philosophy or a thought process-Northington: (both talking at once) Yes. Visintainer: (both talking at once) --behind the production of the art. And you've talked a little bit about, um, about how you want to make sure that the people that are unseen are seen. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: But I was curious if there's other philosophies that you take into the production of your art as well? Northington: Yes. My photography is particularly for Black people. So, it does two things. It’s force feeds Black images, Black positive images into everybody’s purview. I’m going to force feed it. There’s something—this comes back to just being a kid and I will walk in Walmart with everybody else that goes to Walmart since they’re billions and billions of dollars every year. You walk in Walmart and, and maybe you just need a picture frame because you and your family just had a family reunion or your grandmother’s birthday was celebrated, and you go pick up this picture frame and the family in the picture frame stock photo never looks like me. Ever. So, that's the standard. And then, you know, you play soccer, or me? I played tennis growing up and we win a little trophy and the figurine on top of the trophy is never me. It's never my people. And then let's say you fall in love with somebody, you get married and you go to the place to order your wedding cake. And you have to specially order the Black Transcribed by Julia Friedman 7 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 figurines and you wait a few weeks for it to come in the mail because everything in the store that's standard is not me. It's not my people. So, you can go across all media, all aspects of society. And the standard is one group. Everybody else becomes, you know? Well, they get to choose if they include you or not. So, what's happened for many commercials, many movies? We have this idea of the token, we'll insert one, you know, non-white person that could be anybody, you know? They may insert one Asian, one Latino, or one Black person, Disney movies do it all the time. Disney TV shows do it all the time. If you've ever seen South Park, they have a character called Token and he has a big “T” on his t-shirt and it's a Black kid that lives in South Park, Colorado amongst all of the other white kids. You know? This is a real thing in life and in a place particularly like San Marcos, this is not a Black city. It's not a Black area, you know? So, we have a lot of Black students here who were the one in their entire group of friends and, you know, sports, anything, they were involved in. So they're not the standard. So going back to Walmart, let me go get, you know, some stuff, some products for my hair. And there's an aisle called an “ethnic hair aisle” in Walmart. One aisle, two or three shells with hair products that's supposed to be for me. And then there's one, two, three, four, five whole aisles for the “standard” people. So, you know, the photography or the standard of people can be influenced by these things. So, you can learn to understand that you're not included by growing up like that. And those are just a few aspects, you know? Cartoons, whatever--toys, everything. A lot of little Black girls were getting little baby doll toys or Barbies or whatever. And it doesn't look like them. So, these things can help pull away at yourself, how you feel about yourself, how you view your skin, your hair, you know, your people in America. It could pull away and produce these negative aspects. And then you see yourself in film and you're always a drug dealer, a crack head, a prostitute, on welfare. Forever. So much so that a movie like the Marvel Black Panther movie makes a billion dollars and it automatically changes so many people's view. And it automatically brings up the feeling of a group of Black people. Or, 2008, when Barack Obama comes into office, you see the spiritual uplift of a bunch of Black people because of representation. And then he has so many books out between him and his wife. They produce different books. There's so much photography of them. There's so many art pieces that were made because they came into the office, you know? There's a there's a professional painter that did a huge piece on Michelle Obama. That's famous all throughout social media, just for the representation. So, propaganda can be positive or negative. So, I'll take my photography to create some more, just add to the positive end. So, I feel like anybody can do that. If you have a camera phone in your hand, everybody can do that. So, I just choose to be on the more positive end because all of my life has only been negative for my people through film, photography, or otherwise, you know? Just pull up any school website and look at the photos they use for the school website. I almost never see my people in any realm, any aspect. Just Google any business, you know? There became a trend that you would only see Black people in McDonald's commercials and Cadillac commercials. And that's been the trend for like thirty years. And then, you know, Black History Month comes up and then you'll see somebody get inputted somewhere else, you know? Or like, the NBA is like eighty, eighty-five percent Black, but then during Black History Month, they have NBA Black history t-shirts that everybody in the NBA has to wear. So, you'll get that one time and then everything else is standard, you know, stuff like that. So, that's the way I look at it. I see it that way. I go, “Okay, how can we improve this?” I can put out more positive Black images. So, I will. So, I go look for people who may be down on themself, who may be just, “I'm just going to hide in the shadows,” or, “I'm unseen,” you know? That's the people I would prefer if I--if they're willing to be a part of it. And then just, you know, gradually go up and up and up. And then when we get too far to somebody’s just over-“Okay, it's enough.” So, I'm just trying to get that aspect. That's not really, picked out and use and you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 8 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 know, uh, it could be commercial art. It could be just, you know? Fine art, any way you want to take it, but these things are going to last forever. So that's kind of the thought process behind the book. The photo books. They last forever. You can look back at this when you have kids and the grandkids and this event happened, you know? It happened. You have these yearbooks in high school. People always look back at the yearbooks, you know? A lot of grandmothers used to have this big photo album on a coffee table and you come to your grandmother's house and look at all these photos, you know? So, since those were a part of my life, this was a part of the process. Like, okay, I could put all that together and let's just tell a story with this book. And then, I use the book and find a social issue that affects Black people. So, and let's try to correct that social issue through photography, using the Black students here and then give them these photos. And I gave many of them the books that are in the books. Now they get to say they've been a part of this. They get to know. Their family gets to know. So, these pictures get to now reverberate through the Black community. Much like if you saw, you know, Michelle and Barack Obama walk across the stage 2008. So, it gives some type of spiritual upliftment. You feel proud of yourself and who you are, versus comparing yourself to the stock photo in the picture frame at Walmart. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you talked a little bit about representation right now, and then we've talked in the past about representation. And this is not necessarily a photography-related question, but I was curious, as a person of color, when you're out in the world and you don't see representation all around you, what are the kind of the kind of self-care approaches that you take to remain positive in an environment where there's an absence? Northington: Well, just the phrase you just use that I don’t use myself. “Person of color” is not in identifiable nomenclature for me or how I use for my people. You have notion such as “African American.” That’s not--that’s not for me to use. That’s for other people. That’s only been around nineteen years. U.S. census in a year 2000 added “African American” as an identifying, you know, political term to be used. That didn’t exist before then. So, I did a project in the library about that, you know, that we did here. And I showed how the nomenclature of Black people have changed since 1790 census to today. So, there’s been, you know, quite a few terms and phrases. So, the phrase that is currently used now is “people of color.” I don’t use that because you kind of amalgamate everybody into a group and that can be good in certain aspects. But for me, that adds more negative-Visintainer: Okay. Northington: --For Black people, because we get away from talking about Black issues, and Black people by calling all issues of non-whites people of color issues. So, and a lot of these things need to be particular because people of color don't get kicked out of high school for their hair. People of color are not being murdered at this such high rate by the police on TV. So that's why I can't use a term like that or a phrase like that. But I do understand why people use it and then it gets, you know, it gets, you used a lot, but I--I can't use those terms because what affects Black people particularly is not a people of color issue, you know? People of color in hair that's, you know, it's such a different thing. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: --You know, just try to keep it a little more positive. And, uh, so, going back to your question. I would say, the women's book in particular, the main issue was like, I just brought up, the hair. So, there's black kids getting kicked out of school by the thousands every single year, just for having Transcribed by Julia Friedman 9 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 their natural hair, because my hair grows as my hair is supposed to. Your hair grows as it's supposed to. How can this now be a factor in who can be in school and who can't? And who's unkept and who's not, you know? So, we have Supreme Court rulings on this. Many states have their own state's law and federal law doesn't include, you know, the Constitution has nothing about hair in it, you know? Because that was the standard of one group of people. So, hair wasn't an issue. So, we have a lot of state Supreme Court ruling and that led me to the focus of the first book I did on natural hair. So, in 2016, they had an Eleven Circuit Court Supreme Court ruling said employers could in fact discriminate against natural hairstyles. If they see it to be unfit, unkept, unprofessional. So, to even be allowed to do that legally, that’s not a people of color issue, you know, that’s Black-specific. So, I had to dive into that with the book. So, I went around campus and uh, just would just keep my eyes open for any Black people who just walked around freely with natural hairstyles, their natural hair all the way out, you know? Who may not believe in that “I'm going to be clean cut because society told me to,” you know, my hair has to be cut off. Yet, I sit in class and see all these other races of people who get to enjoy their hair being as long as they choose to. And they're not assumed to be violent or third or unkept, you know? So, you could walk around with a ponytail and it wouldn't be seen as anything other than hip. But I let my hair grow, and now society makes a direct connection from me and my natural hair to 1966 Black Panther Party. Just my natural hair alone, I get directly, “Oh, you like a Black Panther?” Why would they do that? You know why? Because the photography that existed in 1966, taking pictures of Black people in Black social movements, they all look like this with their natural hair, the men and the women have the same natural hair. So now, America, hasn't seen that since the sixties, thousands upon thousands. So, you had about twenty-five to twenty-eight million Black people at that point. And for a lot of them to just be walking around naturally, completely, like this, that's a different thing. Because it's like, this group is very different than this group. And it's almost like a highlighter, a notify, you know? And at this point, as you go to the “people of color” term, the term that was used at this point was “Afro-American.” It’s in literature. It’s all over the place at this time. It’s in movies, everywhere. Interviews everything. Because it notified the hair. Afro-American. Well, that since passed and a lot of people went into different hairstyles and different things have changed. So much so that when now I exist, the only correlation is 1966 through the sixties and early seventies is Black Panther Party. So, I get that every day. Can I help change that? Yes. With the book, with the pictures. Particularly discussing hair and how my hair has to always be political. My hair has to always have a law. My hair has to always fit into the scheme of the society as they make the rules. So, we had to fully discuss this hair regulation policy, because it doesn't just exist with that one employer for that one Supreme Court rule in an Eleven Circuit Court. This happens at every, it happens here. It happens when I go to job interviews, you know, I've been asked to cut my hair before and I just didn't work at that place, you know? It's a little different for me. What if I wanted to get a job that requires hats like an officer or, you know, a firefighter, baseball player. The hats are not made for me and my hair. That hats are made for the “standard” American. You know, if your hair lays down in a particular pattern, then a hat doesn't change anything as far as your hair. Well, if I were a size seven hat with my hair low, that changes with my hair longer. It may not change as much as you because your hair would press down and it wouldn't be, you know, wouldn't be messed up. Anything like that. Well, it's different for me or if I'm the only sector of society, that's going to have such a significant difference in that manner. The rules didn't change for me and for Black people. So, just trying to help point out some of these things, you know, with the books and with the photography. So, that’s why I said it can work in both ways. You’re uplifting Black people and then you’re throwing it in the face of everybody else. “Hey, this is who we are. This is what we look like. I'm born this way,” you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 10 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 know? So, this is supposed to be the era of “inclusion.” That's one of the newest words being used in the last two or three summers. “Inclusivity.” “Equity.” And all of these things. Those sound good. And you know, people may have the best intent. But how inclusive are you? If you're asking me to cut my hair, how inclusive are you? If you accept Black people, when their hair is straight, you know, processed. You accept that version. But that same Black woman, if she comes with a hair natural, it's a problem. So much is a problem that many Black women get unrecognized when they come to work one week with their hair pressed and they come to work two or three months later with their hair like mine. “Oh, I thought we had a new coworker. I didn't recognize you.” You know, this happens every day. If I cut my hair right now, I guarantee you, I come to school next semester. Some people will—"Oh, I didn't realize that was you.” Because my face changed (laughs) due to my hair. You know, so, uh, being that our hair has seen is so negative and the negativity comes from the connection to the Black Power Movement throughout the sixties and seventies. So, one of the things, one of the greatest things is our bodies need to be seen as human and as positive. So, the photography about the hair includes that as well, you know? See us happy, we're on campus, we're students, you know, we're coworkers. You need to get used to seeing us in our natural form, how we are. So, the people who may hate or have a disdain for those images, that's a part of them seeing this as well. So, this is what it would do to people who are not Black and then uplift the people who are Black. So, we can kind of, you know, create some social change. So, you could be a little more uncomfortable with seeing a person that looks like me, because you’ve seen it. So, if I'm in a commercial, if I'm in that standard photo at Walmart, if I'm on the school website, you know. If my sister's here, my mother's on this. And we see Black people in films that are also teachers, that also work in the library, that also police officers. So, it becomes accepted. And now I don't have such a, you know, a shocking response. When I see a person like me. There's so many people are shocked by me walking around school. I'm in elevators, going up steps with people. And I keep getting that. The startled response from so many students just because of my hair, that's it. So, we can help change some of these things. Visintainer: Um, to come back a little bit to people that are unseen. So, if you're looking for people that are on the verge of not being interested in being photographed and you're looking for people that are generally unseen. How do you go about convincing people to be seen? Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: If they're used to not being seen (Northington laughs), and maybe comfortable not being seen. Or maybe they're uncomfortable with it, but that's kind of what they expect? Northington: So, I mean, that becomes the work. So, it can't be easy. You know, if you want to do something easy, then I'll just take pictures of people who want to, you know? And then for me, that's not the right energy to go about it or to make the change. They want to be seen. Okay. Yeah. You know, then they're already showing themselves. So, it's not, to me, that's not a fix. So, now when dealing with a person that may be more reluctant to do that. It's not that I want to convince them. It's that I sit down and have the conversation. Let's think about ten years from now. If you make this decision, how will this affect you for ten years and ten years looking back, you know? Would you have been proud of this? You know, then I tell them my purpose for doing it, you know? Similar to some of these responses. Look at commercials, look at magazines. What do you involve yourself in on a daily basis? If you’re watching your social media, what do the ads look like? What are your favorite films? What’s your favorite music? So, look at the—already imagery of yourself. If you had the opportunity to make it positive, because, you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 11 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 know, there’s so much talk about these people do this to us. This group oppresses us this way. Those are true. So, what if I’m giving one small opportunity to go against that. To improve it? If my son, my daughter, my granddaughter, my great-granddaughter was able to see this great imagery of, you know, their great-grandfather or something. It uplifts them as a child. So, I can start that off from the beginning. And you are already fighting against some of the negativities against you from the beginning. So, what happens today? A lot of Black people are looking back to pictures of the Harlem Renaissance. Looking back at those, you know, Gordon Parks photos. This the, uh, what is this? Another woman, uh, [Carrie] Mae Weems, she--her photos as well. So, you have something to look back to something, to aspire to. All these images of Barack Obama, Michelle Obama. All these images of Jay-Z and Beyonce, all these, you know, you have these images to look forward to, to uplift you. You may even make some type of connection, and you can see a little bit of yourself in it, because it represents you a lot more than looking at the, uh, the Statue of Liberty or the Mount Rushmore, you know? Those are like things that are unattached to your culture or to your soul in a way, if you would see own people, you know, we have the Caesar Chavez statue on campus. Everybody probably generally understands that that's okay, it's a mark on the campus. What Caesar Chavez stands for, you know, the rights of migrant workers and all of those things. But then I would say there's another aspect of people who look at that in a different way than even I do. But in other peoples they see more self-representation, more our people work for something. And then there's a different connection. So, we can do that with statues. With imagery. So, I explain this to some of these people and then they make a decision off of that. Then some of them go, “Okay, you know what? I do want to do this.” And then they may have already told themselves they want to be seen, but they don't get the opportunity. They want to be included, but they don't get the opportunity, and they don't have the persona or the, you know, or the personality to kind of say, “Hey, you know, I like to take pictures and do this.” So, I get to now become the conduit for that. And then some of the people go, “No, that's not my arena.” And then I have to take that. But I'd rather deal with it in that way than the person screaming. “Take pictures of me, take pictures of me.” So that's kind of how it goes. Visintainer: Thank you. Have you seen your kind of personal philosophy in relation to your art evolve over time? Northington: Yes. Yes. Uh, but the first idea of doing it from the hair perspective opened up so many other lanes, because then it goes, this is happening against Black people in society. So, let me walk down that and see how I can place that in images to where people can see the image and I don't have to put words on the paper, you know? Tell the story without putting the words on the paper. And then it opens up another lane, another lane. So, I would say the involvement, the evolving of it comes from the first stance of looking at the hair situation. The involvement came from that, and then it's just, this is happening, this is happening. Also, I'm in sociology classes, you know, I'm in a Black feminist thought class. Talk about Dr. Walkington. And I'm in a Black communities class. Talk about Dr. Muhammad. So, we're talking about the aspects of Black immigration, the aspects of over sexual sexualizing Black women, you know? Things like this, more avenues. Now I can use that in the photography and help try to curve some of those negativities. So, it just continues to just go out and go out and go out. And more ideas are just constantly popping up. So, that would add to the evolving measure. And then these are open doors for me to take photography of so many other people, you know? So once the photos get posted online or other people post the photo, I took it in and tagged. Then now I'll get a message saying, “Hey, can you take pictures of me at my birthdays coming up? I have my 22nd birthday. Me and my Transcribed by Julia Friedman 12 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 friends, can you come take--” then that'll happen. And then from that, I had two different companies go, “Oh, hey, we have an event, uh, company that we constantly do events, ten or twenty a year. Are you available to take events for our-- take photos for our events?” So, I have one company I've been taking event photos for three years and another one for a year. And then, so it just keeps going and going and going. And then that adds for a lot of practice. Because I'm getting different lighting situations, indoor, outdoor, overhangs, you know, candlelit lights, you know? So everything's a little different. So, it allows for a lot of practice to do the actual photography that I'm passionate in. So, that's kind of some of the involvement. Visintainer: Okay. So, you've got a commercial aspect to what you're doing then. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And you talk a little bit about how you utilize that to grow your personal art. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some of the things that don't translate when you're doing commercial photography to your artistic side? Northington: Um, we're not really attacking any particular social issue when we're doing commercial art, so it's more, “Let’s enjoy life.” The commercial art becomes more about enjoying life. Like, okay, it's the time to fight against, you know, injustices, it's the time to sit down and do your work and it's the time to enjoy life. So, and the commercial art tends to just, you know, live in that arena. Let's enjoy life, let's have fun. But that also still becomes a correction because it used to be illegal for Black people to get together and hang out, you know? You have the slave codes of Virginia, 1684, they have slave codes and you can’t congregate, you know? South Carolina has some of the same slave codes and many of these things were supposed to be overturned and go out the window after the Civil War. Well, you know, those people still had jobs. So, whether the law changed or not, they still had jobs. So, they still kind of continue some of these practices. And this is where we see like a stop-and-frisk comes into play to where New York City police are growing up, stopping-and frisking can five or six Black dudes standing together. So, we can't even be together, you know? There used to be a time where you could buy a house and have a party. Well, since I've been in California, those things seem to be illegal. You can't even have a party at your apartment. Can't have a party at your house. You can't even congregate and have fun. So now people are forced to go rent out, you know, spaces and hotels and ballrooms. You got to rent out of space, pay a few thousand dollars to get people, to show up and party and have fun and then still pay for parking and all these things. It wasn't like this in the nineties. In the nineties, you lived in a place that you pay rent. You can have a party. Well, those things are like illegal now. People just call the cops. You go, no partying allowed. You know, this is even on some paperwork when you go get an apartment: no parties. Some paperwork, for Homeowners Association of that house: no parties. So, I’m an adult, I’m a human, I can't party. Because I choose to. I have to go to a club. I have to rent out a ballroom, you know? So, for Black people in particular, we need to be able to enjoy life as well with all of these stressors, you need to be able to enjoy life. So, even though this is commercial art, for some of these companies, these people are having fun and are having fun together, which is something that's not promoted. They'll show us fighting together, but not so much of us having fun together. So, there's no balance of that. So, in that aspect of thinking, I get to help provide some balance to showing Black people, enjoying each other, having fun. And then go back home to their kids, their wives, their Transcribed by Julia Friedman 13 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 husbands, and their jobs and school and all of that. But they come together and congregate to have fun and we never get to see it. So. Visintainer: When it comes to your subjects for your photography, um, are there anything that you look for in particular? You've mentioned that you look for people that are--I guess maybe, you've already answered this. That you look for people that are unseen. You look for people that are reticent, to be photographed. But are there anything else that you look for in your subjects? Northington: Yes. I also look for Black community organizations or Black on-campus organizations. So, I've taken pictures for the Black faculty and staff, you know, because they have to have it. You should have photos out there. The Black Student Union, the Black Student Center, you know? There's a Black fraternity here, Omega Psi Phi. Black sorority here, Sigma Gamma Rho. And I've taken pictures for all of them because they should have the photos out there, you know? If we're not seen on campus and people pretend like we're not here. So, we're supposedly like 2.1, 2.2 percent of this campus. And you know, and that seems to be the trend all throughout the CSU, you know? There's maybe two: Dominguez Hills and Cal State Long Beach in L.A. They're in a particular area where there's a high concentration of Black people right there in L.A. So, they have a little higher of a number. The rest of the CSU is right around two percent, three percent. So, with that, we're not so much in a propaganda photography in videos at those campuses. Knowing that coming in, I want to particularly take pictures of these Black groups. So, I'll offer my services to all of these Black groups and take pictures of any events that they're doing, any tabling that they're doing and stuff like. So, I have done that here and that's a part of the focus, too. So, to make sure they're supported in that way and, you know, and they can continue on because other than that--because you do an event here and the process is you go to office communication or go to a newspaper you can request photographers to come. And then sometimes they come and they stay for two minutes, take one or two pictures and they leave. And then for me that's not enough, you know? They did their job, they did what they were supposed to do. They got the one or two pictures they're supposed to get and they left. So, they did what they're supposed to do. But for me, that's not enough. For us, it's not enough. Because we're not being represented properly. So, we need to change that. So, when they do their events and sometimes, you know, these different Black organizations ask me to come do the photography, I'll go do it. No charge, just do the event, edit the photos, put them out there. Even make some little slideshows of them and stuff like this. So, and that's led to me doing the old people's luncheon, some Halloween parties, and stuff like that on campus for even other organizations that are not Black particular. But this stuff now lasts forever. , it's amazing. This is 2019, but if somebody's not here, particularly taking pictures of Black people, none of this happened. Everybody's living off memories, you know? That's stuff that was done for people that graduated in [19]79 or [19]82 as a Black group of people. They're talking about the memories of what we went through in four or five years of college. How is that still a thing? Because if nobody's pointing them out and going, “We need to capture this on video on film,” that this happened, they did this, they did this, they did this, you know? The biggest thing here was when we got the Black students in the spring of 2017, and then you have three students who really made the biggest push. So, the ASI [Associated Students Incorporated (student government)] President at that time was Tiffany Boyd. Then you have Jamaéla Johnson and then you have Akilah Green. All three of them were ASI and they made a huge push for us to get the Black Student Center as we needed. And this was a time that all of these Black people were being shot on TV. And, so, this was a very important need for Black students on campus. So, with those three people, we had to make sure they got recognized. So, I took pictures of them. They Transcribed by Julia Friedman 14 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 came for the grand opening. I hope one day that their names and pictures are on the wall in the Center to get their proper due. If that didn't happen, and there's no pictures, it all goes away and there's a history forgotten. So, the photos become documentary automatically. Any photos of Black people almost automatically become a documentary and historical reference points. So that’s another point of keeping all of my photos. When you ask if I keep them. I just get to look back, you know? Even now I’ll look back three years ago when this person was a freshman or whatever. And, you know, it’s like, “Hey, remember this picture, remember this BSU [Black Student Union] meeting, or remember this event,” you know? So. Visintainer: When you're taking your photographs, what guidance do you give your subjects? Northington: To be calm, to try to, like, take away the stress that they have, you know? Because it's almost exercise when you asked about some exercising, some positive things to kind of--because this, this also helps me, you know? This has becomes a tool of, uh, I mean, some people will call it a yoga, mental yoga, or a relaxation technique. Because just being able to take a picture of Black people and it makes them feel good. It makes me feel good. So, you know, you get to keep pushing that positive energy back into Black people. Because they need it just as much as anybody. So, if nobody's going to be particular to help pull up Black people, I'm not going to sit around and fuss about it. What aspect can I add to it? So, I'll continue to do that. So, it can help them as well, you know? Especially those people who are more quiet and shy and then they go, “Oh, this person wanted to put me in their book or wanted to put me in their video,” and that can help change them and, and it help them grow and help them feel good about themselves so I could help them. They could help me. So that's the way I take it. Visintainer: Can you tell me about a particularly satisfying moment in your photography? (Northington laughs) Something that really, really made you, you know--I think you get a lot of joy out of it in general. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: But something that really made you go “Well, I'm so happy to be doing what I'm doing?” Northington: Uh, well, a lot of these photos in the books, especially the Black women's book, I printed out maybe seventy, eighty of these photos on a large canvas of like twenty-four by thirty-six. And I did a thing last year where I printed all these out on steel frames and some of them were on canvas and I gave these out to people or gave them to their mothers and to their grandmothers. And that was probably the most satisfying thing because you don't normally see people from a socioeconomic deprivation to be, to make a jump, to have something that may be considered expensive artwork of their own in their house. So, imagine walking in your house and having your own huge portrait on metal, on steel, on the wall, and every time your family comes over, “Look, this is my daughter in college. Look, this is my son in college.” And they had the picture taken by somebody on campus. When you would normally have to have enough income enough, you know, throw away money, to go pay for this. And it cost you three or 400 bucks. So, because it cost about 200 bucks for the photo. And then now for the photo photographer services, you might spend 500 dollars for something like that. Just for that joy. Well, I just give it to them and then they got that joy anyway. And they were sitting around talking about it. This one girl had her mother, her father, and her grandparents and her brothers and sisters at this event done by the Black SistaHood. It's another Black organization on campus. And we did a natural hair event last year to Transcribed by Julia Friedman 15 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 particularly talk about our natural hair and how we treated and things we can do to improve, you know. So, and that was a part of it. So, I printed out these huge photos. So, when people walked in, they had a line of all these huge photos of Black men and women in their natural hair, smiling, loving it. And I handed out a lot of these photos at that event and these people with their family and they just loving, they posting it online and everything like. So that right there would probably be the peak, that right there. Visintainer: That's cool. What's the most difficult part of the process of photography or creating art for you? Northington: Uh, impatient people (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Yeah, or people that you're trying to communicate with a person to do what you see in your head. That's always difficult, you know? It's almost like telling somebody to draw something out of your head. That's the way I look at it. It's almost that difficult sometimes because you know, people want to sit and stand like, “Okay, roll your shoulders back.” And then they do the same thing. Okay. “Chin down,” Because this is how people take pictures. “Okay, we're going to take your picture.” Okay. “Stand there.” And then people do this, uh, you have to put your chin down, then they do this. Okay. (Visintainer laughs) You know? And then I'm like, “Alright, one millimeter, two millimeters to the left, to the right.” You know, all right. “Don't look at the camera,” and then I'll take the picture. Or when I get ready to take the picture. Okay, “One, two, three,” and then they pop the same pose. Okay. Well, no, we already posed you. Sit still, “All right, let's go.” You know, and people have a--he did it. Shamar did it. He, you know, keep ticking his head to the left when it’s ready. All one, two, three. And then, you know, and I came to find out, a lot of people have a tick like that. Because people get used to taking photos. So, they have like a go-to pose. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So that go-to pose becomes a difficult thing a lot of times. So, that, and I never like it when, if people are not satisfied with the photo. So, there’s some photos that I put in the books that I really love and other people love them, you know, from the studios and everything. But then that person in the photo didn’t particularly like that one. So, we’ll take thirty or forty and I’ll ask them to choose. And then I’ll tell them the one I like. “You pick two or three and I’ll tell you one I like.” Hopefully they’re the same, but in some cases it’s not the same. And then they’re not as satisfied as I am. So, I don’t like that part either. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: But, it's a part of the process. So. Visintainer: Um, so you published two books of photography. The first book was inspired by the question of hair. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: The representation of hair. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 16 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Uh, what was the second book’s (unintelligible)? Northington: The second book is of Black men. So, the negative characterizing of Black men has always been thugs and criminals. Well, we have all these Black men here on this campus going to school that are not student athletes. They're students, you know? So, they need to be recognized as being students. So, there's plenty of Black men that have graduated from college. That's not what you see on TV. You don't see a college graduate Black man on TV, in a commercial that we know that's what it is. The representation is always a sport, you know? (laughs) Music, you know? It's pretty, after that, it gets thin, you know? So, uh, you can be a comedian, it's entertainment, and it's entertainment-based mostly, you know? And if that's the eighty percent, the ninety percent, maybe even a hundred percent of what you're going to encompass, it's hard to see them as anything else. So, this determines a lot of how we treat people. If I only see Black men represented that way, but then I go home, nobody's --and my home's Black. I'm not Black. I live in a community that's not Black. And my only visual of Black men is all this negative stuff. That's going to play on my comfortability or how I treat them. So now I come to Cal State San Marcos, I get in the elevator and I see a dude like this. I may be a little disheveled. So, if we can change some of those things, because we can, and put out the positive imagery of Black men, then these things can start to, you know, disappear. So, with that in mind, when I did the book for the Black man, again, I want people with all different hairstyles or all different natural hairstyles. But I told them not to smile because I need you to be able to be accepted for having a straight, comfortable face. Northington: I'm just sitting in a class like this, or I'm just in my Uber, or I'm just, you know, at the ATM machine. You shouldn't have to smile, dance, and entertain to be accepted. And those are aspects of vaudeville, ragtime, USA, you know? You can be accepted by this society, entertaining people as a Black man, but can you be accepted when you don't entertain? When you just live life? And that's why we have these, social things that are happening such as barbecuing while Black, driving while Black, shopping while Black. These things occur so much because of how other people view Black men, Black women, Black children. And then you're already castigated and put into the box of criminal or not American, but other American. So, you viewed a certain way. Therefore, you're treated a certain way. And then this causes stress on both ends. So now the stress is building up on us and then the stress is building up on anybody on the other side. And then now it clashes when you get to a campus, when you get to a work environment and you have this wall up on both sides. Well, that doesn't make well for society. And it doesn’t do well for people’s mental health and spiritual health, especially the people on the end receiving all the negativity. So, we can help change some of these things. So, if I'm not the one causing the racism on myself, I'm not the one that needs to make the correction. So, the people viewing this and see these Black men, not smiling, being themselves, looking like me, looking like him, looking like all different aspects of Black men. And you get to view this in a book. They're all students, they're all at this university. They all go unseen. So, let’s put this out here. So now when you see this, it forms now, “Okay, this is a little different than the rapper I saw on TV. This is a little different than the guys I see being chased by the cops.” So, I have to give you another element. So, it allows for some change, but people still have to make that choice themselves. So, that's the point for that one. Visintainer: And then you have a third book you're working on? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 17 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: Yes. And then the third book of this series, this is a series of books. The third book is called, “WE ARE,” and it's going to show the Black men and Black women together on campus doing regular life, you know? Studying, having fun, telling jokes, you know? Walking to their cars, walking to class, you know? Hanging out in the library, all different things, eating together, congregating, just enjoying each other's company. Because again, that's something we don't see propagated by the country, you know? There's a select few, you'll get, you know? If there's a people of color seminar, you know? There's an African American scholarship, then you'll see the commercial art for that be Black people smiling. So, it's not, it doesn't change the standard. That's a particular thing for a particular group of people. And it, you know, it's almost commodified in that way. I want to include us in the standard. So, including us in the standard becomes the change. So, I would look at it in that, in that realm. Visintainer: Do you have a, um, do you have a project after your next project? Are (unintelligible)? Northington: Yes. So as soon as I made the second book, I automatically thought I could just do a bunch of series. So, with this third book completing this series-- also, I did mention before, I think, I maybe told you on the side--all three books, I envisioned them already before I did them. So, I said, “I'm going to make another element to this.” So, the books have the photography and I have a passage in the front of the book that explains the purpose of the book. And then every book has its own title, which I explained on the first page. Then the final page of every book has the thank yous of everybody that we included that gave you the energy to the book. And the thank yous are translated into a different African language. So, with each book, you're going to learn a little bit of a different African language. Now, all three titles of the book in a series complete one sentence. So, the first book is called, “Solar Amalgamations.” The second book is called, “HUEMAN.” And the third book is called, “WE ARE.” And the whole sentence is rearranged: “We are solar amalgamations.” Well, “We are hueman [human] solar amalgamations.” And that generally means, “We are stars,” you know? We're carbon-based human beings. So, this is the carbon-based world. So, and then the human part, I spell “H-U-E-M-A-N” you know? Denoting the shade or the “hue.” Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, “We are human solar amalgamations.” And that completes that trio. After that, there's another book series I'm doing on older Black people that work on campus and things like this. So, I'm particularly looking for fifty [years old] and up, you know? So, and then another series is going to be on Black families and it's going to go on and on and on and on and keep going with that. So, this sparked just a different--and I can, I think I'm going to do this by just (unintelligible), and I'll be able to keep adding more series. So, and that's what that's going to do. So, and then this third book should be out. I want it to be done now, but people’s schedules, it's always tough. The more people that are in the photos, it gets tougher. So, it was a little easier to do the first two books because it was individuals. And then I could put it together in a week or something after I got all the photos, I spent one week putting the whole book together. But we groups. So, these photos are going to be done in groups. It's going be at least two people in every photo. And I’m trying to get some photos of six and seven and twelve people, you know? To add to that, the aspect of us together, “WE ARE,” that's the title. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 18 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: So, it should show us together. So, it may take a little longer than I thought and it may not come out into the spring. So. Visintaier: That’s a lot of scheduling direct. Northington: Yeah, yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: And I have to be the most free because I have to work with everybody else's schedule. So Visintainer: I think that's all of the questions that I had. Northington: Okay. Visintainer: Was there anything that I should have asked you about that I didn't? Northington: The recent recognition that's happening that never happened. I've been here going on my fourth year, as I said. And when I spoke about people being invisible, that includes me as well. So, I had to sit back and watch my fellow students that are in class with me, get their work recognized every year, every semester, over and over, you know? People that ask for my help or people that I ask for help. We're all in the same class. And you know, there's a nursing program, they all go to the same classes. There’s sociology, they all-- same thing with art. We're all in the same classes, especially in my student discipline, art and technology, we're all in the same classes. So, to see some of those students get their work put out or get recognized or see their work, you know, in different areas on campus or whatever I say, “Okay, this is how this works.” So, it doesn't stop. It doesn't turn off. So now, you know, you just come here and then you see the work in the, in the art-- it all just linked up. The students in the art department that put on the exhibit, the art juncture, you know, they reached out because a few of my art professors let them know. So, all of those pieces kind of came together at once. So, you know, I did old people's luncheon, I did photography for them, did their programs and all these other things. This all happened in one month. That part, the school newspaper reached out to me and did an interview and they put it in a newspaper and they posted my photos. Another group of people for Art Equals Opportunity that they work in a--in the San Diego area using art to help students, you know, learn the lessons of English, you know, history, science, and everything. But using the conduit of art, they posted me on their website. All of this happened in the same month. And then you walk in, you know? And your coworker sees the work and then we meet to do this. And all, all of this just happened at once. That's just that. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Then the last, last week I submitted some of these photos to, ah, Lycoming College. It’s in, uh, Pennsylvania. It’s in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And there was this huge national search for all Black art for their exhibit called “Blurred Expectations.” That’s open now. It just opened today. Everybody across the country submitted. Somebody that knew me said, “Hey, you should submit your stuff to this.” I submitted it. Boom, immediately. They was like, “Yes, it’s in.” So, once this exhibit ended here, the very next day, I had to take it down and ship it. Visintaier: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 19 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: Uh, to Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And it’s up right now in their exhibit. And then ASI, the ASI student government here, just accepted one of my pieces for that art project. So, within two months, this semester, all of the work I've been doing for years, you know? Some of this book is 2017. This book is 2018., you know? And I'm currently doing--so these things are year, two years old, after I watch all of my, you know, fellow students be recognized. All of mine is coming right here in two months. So that's, you know, that's been a big change. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, congratulations. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: How long is the exhibition in Virginia up for? Northington: Until the beginning of February. So, they got a couple of months. Yeah. I think it’s right at two and a half months. Something like that. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: No, the end of November. All of December. All of January. Yeah. So, it's right at like two and a half months. Think they got like eight week-Visintainer: (both talking at once) Is there going to— Northington: (both talking at once) --be six week, ten weeks, something like that. Visintainer: Is there going to be a digital component to it? Northington: Well, they've been posting videos and uh, you know, tagging all of the artists in it and everything like that. And they made--they made a social media page, they made an Instagram page. So that's how everybody's keeping up who's not in their area at that school. And it's like a huge four-year private institution. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: That costs like ten times as much as this school to go to. So, it’s-- and it was a national search. So, it's-- it is, it is good to add to, ah, you know, to a resume for something like that. So, I mean (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: You know, it's like on my way out the door, I have all these résumé items now that didn't exist before, you know? Even though I've done so much work on this campus going unrecognized, but it's now, it's now all happening right now at the perfect time. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: I can appreciate that. So, uh, and I also wanted to mention all the supporters that helped over this time. So, Miss Ariel Stevenson from the Office of Inclusive Excellence. Uh, Mrs. Marilyn McWilliams, Office of Inclusive Excellence, Dr. Sharon Elise, you know? These are people who supported me from the beginning to now. No holds barred, you know? They even got a little flack, you know, at times, because I'm not as accepted as everybody else. So, you know, they've asked me to do different Transcribed by Julia Friedman 20 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 projects on campus. They supported, they came to all of the events, you know? We established another club on campus: The Black SistaHood to encompass all these elements I spoke about, about photography, my photography, Black-specific, and how it assist in helping us get through this society and try to make some things positive where we turn that into a student club and organization. So, that's why I have this. That's why wore this sweater for this interview. So no, and this is more pushing love for people, you know? Loving each other, breaking through some of these stereotypes and turning these negatives into positives and becoming, you know, great people in life. So, and a lot of that's going to be exemplified in the third book, in the, “WE ARE” book, you know? So, uh, been a part of Black Student Union since I've been here, you know? Some--there was some people in the sorority, Black sorority and Black fraternity, Sigma Gamma and Omega Psi Phi, a few, there's a few individuals that supported me and helped as well. And then the Black Student Center itself has been the hub for all of this. So once that was established and created, it allowed me a centered space because before I had to walk around the entire campus, like loop every building and hang out during every U-hour, whether I had class or not. And just try to like find people. So that's what I had to do before. And it's like the people out here right now, “Are you registered to vote? Are you registered to vote?” I was one of those people. With my camera and no book because the book is not made yet. So, I'm out here with a printed sheet of paper. “Hey, would you like to take a photo for my project?” And this-- and that was not as, you know, as presenting, you know, as to walk up with an already made book. So, once I got the first book, I got more yeses. Once I had two books, I got--you know, so the yeses come a lot easier. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, having the, the Black Student Center here, I get the crowd now. So now I have more people to choose from and it's just so much easier to do it now than it was, you know, in 2016, when I started the first book. So, it's a lot easier now. So, that may--that may be it. And uh, as long as you using the terminology "Black,” because I don't, I don't use “African American” or “people of color.” Visintainer: Yeah Northington: So, while y'all printing this, any, any printing that has to be done uh-Vistintainer: I'll, I'll send you any verbiage that we do. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And then that way you can look it over and-Northington: Okay, okay. Visintainer: Correct me, if I'm making a mistake. Northington: (laughs) Well, you know, it's not a mistake for other people, but for me that, you know, it just doesn't work for me. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, that might be it. And then shout out to the, the people who are coming behind me, you know, Shamar. We got (unintelligible) Williams. She's been working with me the most here. So, she's a senior now and she's in my same major field: visual performing arts. And she's helped a lot over the last Transcribed by Julia Friedman 21 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 year because I've been just forcing her and pushing her to do her photos, to do her artwork, you know? And then as I mentioned with Gordon Parks, this isn't one element, like I told you before, the photo is just one thing that I've done on this campus. So, I make these shirts, I make these logos, these designs, you know? So, all of the BSU gear you've seen, all of the Black Student Center gear you've seen for the most part, all the Black SistaHood, Black Brotherhood, you know, Transitions Collective. I did some logos for them. Project Rebound, I'm designing a logo for them right now. So, there's so many elements to the artwork that I produced on campus. So, and I've done about four or five, like a components--we just saw the art exhibit. But then I already did two exhibits here in the library and we're working on the third with the art department right now on sustainability. So, I have an art project, uh, a water art project that's going to be in sustainability, you know? If that happens in the spring, that's still talking about that. I did a sustainability project with ASI about straws. And this was right before they banned straws on this campus. We were trying to make a push to get rid of straws and how this affected the aquatic life. And we, you know, we created like a sea turtle with a straw in his mouth and shows how this kind of messes them up. So, uh, spent a lot of things like that on campus. So, I just want to make sure it's not just photography. Visintainer: Sure. Northington: I would say it's art and I'm sure you understand that it's art and, but this part is the photography, but there's so much more that I've been a part of on campus than that. And now I want the next group of people like Shamar to come along and continue it. Because if I--you know, once I leave it's over, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't end. It should be fifteen, twenty more people. So, I try to do my part and help them learn the right avenues, meet some people, you know? That's why I asked them to come and be here and to see a different process, you know? "Okay, this is where I started. And then I could do this, this, this, this, this.” They can do the same thing I'm doing, you know? It's not, it's not that special. You have to do the work, you know? You have your vision, you have what, your passion and then you need to do the work. And you'll get everything that you want out of it. So. And that's, that's probably all I got right there. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: Well, thank you, Jake. Northington: (both talking at once) No problem. Visintainer: (talking at once) I really appreciate you coming by and chatting with us. Northington: Make sure we see, uhVisintainer: Yes. Northington: The women that I love. And then the men’s book. And the third book will be coming soon. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Alright. Visintainer: Thank you, sir. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 22 2022-09-27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northington, Jake. Interview transcript. November 22, 2019. Description An account of the resource Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. In this interview, Jake discusses his artistic influences, the importance of Black representation in his photography, and his involvement in CSUSM’s Black Student Center and the Black SistaHood. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jake Northington Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-11-22 Subject The topic of the resource Artists, Black California State University San Marcos -- Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Students Portrait photography Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) East Saint Louis (Ill.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-13 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-09-27 Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e4b63f52f64e75d6b2babf4b5ae15f82.pdf ba62a9bcaeab7b7107074cfb0e2ab846 PDF Text Text Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Jennifer Ho: Okay. Today is May 30th, 2023. My name is Jennifer Ho, and I am interviewing Dr. Dilcie Perez for the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) Oral History Project. Thank you so much for being with me today, Dr. Perez. How are you? Dilcie Perez: Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity. Ho: Great. Okay, so I just wanted to start with a little bit about you personally. Can you tell me where you're from? Perez: No (both laugh). So I grew up in a military family, so I had the wonderful opportunity to live in places like Arizona and Maine and California, and Okinawa and traveled around and graduated high school in Okinawa, Japan. And moved to California as--in the nineties, early nineties. And had started, when I graduated high school in Japan, I wasn't sure where I wanted to go to college. And so I kind of took a lot of classes at community colleges. And when I moved to California someone said to me, “Have you ever heard of a place called Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos?” And at that time, I had not. And so they said, “Oh, they have programs at the time for juniors and seniors, and so you should check them out.” And so I applied to go to school at San Marcos and was accepted. And so I can talk about that later, obviously. But I, my, I come from a family of--I have my parents and I have two brothers, and I am the only girl and the youngest. However, I was also adopted, and so found my biological family later in life. And so in that family, I am the oldest of three girls. And so, have a wonderfully blended family. My education, I graduated from Cal State San Marcos in (19)94-ish. And I say that because I had the wonderful opportunity to speak at commencement in (19)94 as the speaker, one of the student speakers. And, and I think my speech might, I don't know if it's in the archives, but there's gotta be some video or something of all the, the different commencements. But moved immediately after that to North Carolina and had two classes to finish. And so I was also pregnant at the time, and so it took me about a year to get those two classes done. So I walked in (19)94, but my, my diploma says (19)95. And came back to San Marcos and then went and got my master's at Central Michigan. So they have--they had a military on-base education. And so they would fly out the instructors from Central Michigan to do an executive master's program. And this is back in the early 2000s. So this was years ago. And then I waited thirteen years to go back and get my doctorate from San Diego State in educational leadership with the emphasis in community college. Ho: Thank you. Can I ask you what brought you out to California in the first place? Perez: Yeah, the military. So I met my ex-husband in Okinawa, and then we moved to North Carolina, and then he received orders to Camp Pendleton. And so we lived in Oceanside actually at that time, and then I went to school. Ho: Okay. Okay. That's great. What were your impressions of--of California, of San Diego, of Oceanside when you, when you arrived for the first time? Perez: Yeah, I don't think that I had anything particularly of California. Because I traveled the world. And so it was another place. I remember living in--off of Mission Avenue and just appreciating being close to the beach and the weather. And but I will tell you this, that I came, so when this was (19)91-ish. And when someone referenced, like to go to Cal State San Marcos, and I say this, I tell the story all the time: Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 1 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 that when I applied to Cal State San Marcos, got accepted, I went to orientation. And orientation at that time in 1992 was at Cal State Jerome's. So you've probably heard the stories across the street. Ho: Yep. Perez: And I can see it. One, I will tell you, I still have my 1992 orientation binder that I received when I came. Still. So I've traveled and moved. But I recently was, you know, consolidating. I was like, “No, I'm keeping this, like this is good, important stuff in 1992.” And I will tell you that what is pivotal for me of having been in a military family traveling the world, that I remember walking out of orientation feeling like it was a place that I belonged because of the message of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And, you know, in (19)92, we didn't always use those words. Ho: Right. Perez: But, but diversity was a value for the campus from the start. And I remember people, someone at orientation saying, “We don't want to be a melting pot. That's old, outdated language.” And this was in (19)92, right? “Because a melting pot blends everyone together, and you can't tell the difference. We wanna be a salad bowl and we want everyone to have a unique.” And so that resonated with me that I felt like I found a place, even at my orientation in 1992 at Cal State San Marcos. Ho: Wow, that's, that's amazing. That's really great to hear. So is that--just to fast forward a little bit, is that what brought you back to CSUSM? Perez: That's interesting. So literally when I worked in as a student, I worked in what was at the time Student Affirmative Action. So they called it SAA. Someone by the name of Denise Hollis became a mentor. I think Eric Cardoso or folks in Student Affirmative Action (Program). And this was obviously before Prop 209. That then started to abolish offices such as that, right? And so when I worked in those areas and SASOP (Student Academic Services Outreach Program) and stuff, I was a student going out and doing motivational outreach. So we would do programs in schools, and I was going out doing that, and I had such a powerful experience as a student. And I moved to North Carolina right after I graduated for a year and a half, two years. And when I came back, I was at a party, like a barbecue, I can't remember. And someone said to me, “Hey, you know I got a new job.” It was somebody that I worked for. She said, “I got a new job.” And I was like, “Ah, I want your job.” Like, “I want your job.” And she just started laughing. She was like, “Ha.” I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no. I really want your job.” Like, “What do I need to do?” And her assignment was temporary. And so this was--so really why I came back to work was because there was a temporary opportunity. It was an Assistant Outreach Coordinator in Student Academic Services Outreach Program. And so I started back at the campus that I love so much, and really in official capacity doing what I had done as a student. Ho: That's wonderful. And was that after you got your, your doctorate from SDSU? Perez: No. So this is all in 1998, (19)90. So I graduated in (19)95. I was in Fayetteville, North Carolina. And then I came back, I think in (19)97 and worked for GEICO, did temp work. I was like, “What's my life's purpose? Where am I headed? What am I doing?” And then I met her at this party or saw her again Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 2 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 at this party. And then the rest is history about (CSU) San Marcos, because I left, there's a lot to the story. But I left, but stayed for a long time and really had a great professional experience. Ho: That's wonderful. Do you remember the name of the person from the party? Perez: Oh, Mary Wardell. Um-hmm. Ho: Mary Wardell. Perez: Yeah. She was, she worked in Student Affirmative Action, and she moved and went to the Dean of Students' Office, was an Assistant Dean of Students. And that's when I saw her. 'Cause she had just received that pro-- promotion. Now she works at--she moved to, I think, University of the Pacific, but she does DEI work, she’s done written books and done amazing things in this area. Yeah. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yeah. Ho: So now backtracking again. I wanna hear about your time as a student, because obviously it had a profound impact on you. So, so did it meet--did being a student meet your expectations after that orientation? And can you tell me about some experiences on campus and the people that you met and some pivotal moments? Perez: Oh, I love it! So I will tell you that I (laughs)--I, I had a fun experience at (California State) San Marcos, but I wasn't your traditional student. Like, I didn't know what a Dean of Students was. I didn't know about higher education. I knew that I had gone, I didn't learn this until later. I'd gone to like six different community colleges picking up classes. I spent time at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington, picking up classes. So I was going to school constantly, but picking up classes as we traveled. And so when I got to, you know, (CSU) San Marcos, it--you have to remember the culture was so different because it was so small and the faculty and the students were so tight. And when I arrived, there were no first year students. It was only juniors and seniors. And we only had three buildings. So Science Hall, Academic Hall, and maybe well, Administration Building, Craven, which is not Craven anymore. So it was those three buildings. And I will say to you that I was married, right? And so I was working during the day, I was going to school, and I took classes. I will tell you, that's really profound. And to this point, I'm still connected to these faculty members today. Leslie Zomalt. So, you know, the (Ernest and Leslie) Zomalt Award they're very, I'm very close to them. She was my faculty member in California History and we're still close. And she gave me a B! Like a B, a B. So I was like, “Why do I like you so much? You gave me a B.” But she was so good because she would, what I loved about her--I was going through a personal, difficult personal situation during that time, and I must have missed class or something must have happened that, she called me and she said, “I realize that you're not around. I wanna check on you and see how you're doing.” And that was pivotal to me. I remember that she went to a conference and she loves to read. She still loves to--I, I'm going to her house for quilting. She got me connected to quilting. I hate quilting. I hate it. I hate it. But I love you know, I, when I came back one time, I said to her, “Will you make me a quilt?” Is what I said to her. Literally this bold. And she said, “I will not make you a quilt. I will teach you how to quilt.” And I was like, “Ah, okay.” So, but every year, for about ten to fifteen years, we have quilted at her house for a year, for at one time a year. Now, I don't Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 3 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 quilt any other time. I still hate quilting. But I love the sense of community and the mentorship and the love that goes into it, that I literally will quilt one thing within my range once a year when I go. And so I will say to you that what I think about at San Mar--and Jill Watts. So let me tell you, Jill Watts is still there. She is a historian beyond historians. And, and I talked about her in, in my commencement speech that the best African American History class I have ever taken is by a white woman. Hands down. She is brilliant. She is, you know, phenomenal. It's funny, even when I worked at (California State) San Marcos, I wouldn't see her as much, but she would just beam every time that she saw me because she knew who I was as a student. I remember that Peter Zwick, I don't know if you've heard that name. He used to be over (at) Global Affairs at the time, but was really a hard, hard political science instructor. Like people were scared of him. Hard. And I decided, 'cause I was lost, I was gonna do Poli Sci as a major. And he, I went to him, who's my faculty advisor too. He must've been. And I sat there and I said, “I'm graduating in May.” And he was like, “Dilcie, how are you graduating when you haven't hardly taken any political science classes?” I was like, “It’s a technicality. Technicality.” So I took twenty-one units, most of those political science classes, upper division in one semester. Ho: Wow! Perez: I thought I was going to die. And I think a few of them, 'cause he was a hard one, like one or two were with him. But I will tell you this, is that one, it was hard 'cause I was working and taking twenty-one units and picking up. But I will tell you that that was the best I did. That was the only semester I've ever made Dean's list (laughs) in my college career, because I knew I didn't have a lot of room to play. But I will say to you that as I think about (Cal State) San Marcos, it was pivotal to me because of the relationships, particularly with faculty that I established. Denise Hollis was administration, but we were, we used to go to a Third Word Counselor's Association. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it was years ago, and it was doing DEI work, and they were taking us there to those events. But even during the time, so I didn't get involved in a lot of co-curricular events. I have a colleague now, that used to work at Chancellor's Office and I just had an event for her. And I was like, we went to college together at (CSU) San Marcos. She's very--Sabrina Sanders. We went to college. And I was like, I don't completely remember her, but we went to college together. Right. Because she remembers me. And I just wasn't involved in a co-curricular way. So I would tell you my co-curricular experience really was the relationships with them. But we did a play. So this is in the archives as well, but for Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow Wasn’t Enough (Is Enuf). Ho: Okay. Perez: We, we all practiced for months. I--months on weekends and nights and did this two-weekend play or maybe one weekend. And it was in like the school newspaper. Gezai (Berhane) showed it to me later, that we all did this play. It was sold out in ACD 102 sold out. It was just wonderful. That--those are the pivotal moments for me. My orientation, my relationship with faculty, my--spending time in that (production). That's what I think when I think about my (CSU) San Marcos experience that I treasure the most. Ho: That's lovely. Thank you. And what did you say the title of that play was? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 4 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: For Color Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow (Is) Enuf. So it's about seven African American women and the diversity of their life. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yeah, it has some pretty heavy topics in it, quite honestly. And so that's what made it so impressive quite honestly. Yeah. Ho: And can you speak a bit about--about the culture on campus for you as a student? Whatever comes to mind, but in particular I'm interested in, in culture and community and, and DEI and, and different groups of students. Perez: So, that's an interesting, I am grateful for this question. I don't think that I was mindful enough to know at the time with words and language what I was experiencing. I think I felt like I mattered. That I was making relationships and making connections. And I, and I hate to--I don't always like the cliche of mattering and belonging because I think people have to unpack that and think about what that means. But I will tell you, I felt like I belonged at (CSU) San Marcos from day one. From day one. And so--but I also didn't have a lot of needs, right? So at that point in time for the two years that I was there, two or three I think it served the need that I had as a non-traditional student. When I came back in (19)97, the campus had changed because the first-year students came in (19)95. So it was not the same. We--I could tell we were going through an identity crisis, right? We were planning the 10th anniversary event when I returned, and I brought the (laughs) Charger girls. I was gonna bring them to the event. And I don't know if you know, but back in the day and you have to be careful about this, this part, but back in the day we had a librarian who was heavily involved in the campus and (laughs). Ho: Okay Perez: And there was a lot of music, it (was) like jazz, right? That works for an older population. And so it was wonderful for the campus when there was juniors and seniors and older people, but first-year students and sophomores (laughs), I don’t--jazz isn’t it all--like, we have to be more than that. And so I really was proud of myself, quite honestly. And I was like, I got the Charger girls! They're coming into this event. They literally took me to, we--I don't know if you've heard of Surge? So Surge used to be the coffee shop. Ho: Okay. Perez: That was on the corner, kind of down by--by Block C by, you know where the quad is? It was on the corner there. There's a real estate office there now. They took me down to the Surge for coffee and they said, “We don't want T&A at our event.” Like, and I said, “What? Like, the Charger girls are like, like professionals (laughs)! Like they, they're not, they're not T&A, what’re you talking about?” But they would not let me bring the Charger girls to that event. I had to cancel them. Ho: Oh my goodness. Wow. Perez: And I think that the campus was in that transition from this kind of older and more mature thing to saying we have to be more relate--like, I was trying to push us to be more relatable and it did not work that day at all (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 5 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Ho: Wow, what a conversation that must have been. Perez: Oh, it was fun. But you know, I've always, I've always liked to get into good trouble, right? Ho: Yeah. Perez: And so for me it was then how are we meeting the needs of students? Because what we, what we did for, it was supposed to be like 10th anniversary in a preview day, and it really was just, you know, the same old thing that we had been doing all of that, that time period. So-Ho: Okay. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Did--are you saying the event turned out to be kind of the same old, same old? Perez: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Ho: Okay. Okay. Perez: 10th anniversary jazz ensemble (laughs). Yeah. Ho: Okay. Okay. Perez: And people showed up, but it wasn't what you really would think of, of a traditional college experience. So we went through transitional times such as that. Ho: Okay. Well that's a good segue into the Cross-Cultural Center then. So when you were a student at that time, there was not a Cross-Cultural Center, is that correct? Perez: That's correct. Ho: Okay. So when you came back to CSUSM in a staff role what are your first memories of rumblings of a Cross-Cultural Center, of a Multicultural Center? Do you remember? Perez: None. None. So let me put the context around, and this is where it--it's a, it's an interesting story. So if I go back to (19)98, (19)97, I worked in Student Academic Services Outreach Program. So SASOP doing early outreach, motivation, academic preparation. And I would say that that team and the people were diverse. We had the Dome (food services originally operated by San Diego State University’s Aztec Shops) as a space, which was really, if I remember correctly, only the primary kind of student-centered space. There wasn't a lot, you had lunch there, right? And you ate there, everything happened in the Dome. I would say to you, we were going through as a division, a lot of work around our values and trying to clarify and integrate our values in our, in for the team. And I would say to you what was hard, I'm trying to remember. I remember that there were WASC (Western Association of Schools and Colleges) self-study and that it came back with some campus climate challenges. Ho: Uh-hmm. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 6 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: And I remember, and all my years kind of blur, right? So, but I have a time period of when, like pre--I have to explain it. But when I was in SASOP, I was heavily involved in a lot of different things. In outreach. And I remember, I think during that time, there was a noose hanging on the tree outside of Academic Hall. Not, excuse me, I'm lying to you. Outside of the Administration Building. So that fifth, fifth floor, you have Founders' Plaza, there was that--there's a tree there. Ho: Yeah. Perez: That tree had a noose. And so that caused a lot of energy. So the part that's interesting is that I was heavily involved in the community. I was working tremendously. And I think I had kind of burnt out, honestly, in outreach. So I was there five and a half, six years, and I had been thinking about, I need to change. I need to do something differently. And so I was driving to work one day, and I had talked to my ex-husband. I was like, “I think I'm, I'm done. Like, I'm tired, like I'm exhausted.” And he, he said, “(I) support you, do what you need to do.” And I had written a letter and I had it for like months and I hadn't done anything with it. And then one day I was driving to work and I can tell you exactly where I was when I was driving to work. And I said, “I'm done.” And so I came in to the office and I gave them my notice. And one thing that I will tell you is that when someone quits a job and gets another job, most people will say, “Oh, Jennifer got another job. She's moving on to better things.” Well, you get a lot of attention when you say, “I'm leaving.” And they're like, “Where are you going?” And I'm like, “Nowhere. I'm just done here.” And so folks in administration came to me and they said, “Hey, you know, we don't want you to leave. What's going on?” And one of the administrators said, “If we create an opportunity for you, will you stay?” And I was like, “Eh, I don't, I don't think so. No, no, no. I--I'm pretty tired.” And the campus threw a big going away party for me, huge. But what they had said to me is, “Leave, go ahead. Take two weeks. Don't, we're not gonna submit everything. You go think about this opportunity and let us know.” And I will tell you that it was until that last day, I think they had given me till 1:00 PM and they said, and I called at twelve fiftyfive because I wasn't going to do it. I was tired. And the opportunity that they had was the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so that was the first start to the Cross-Cultural Center. So that is how, honestly, it really--and so I'll tell you that what I know now, after I got into that position was we were doing 2010 visioning at that time. And I, this was, you're talking 2002 when I, when I shifted. Two thousand two/three. And they had already, I would say Jonathan Pollard, you've probably heard that name, and Bridget Blanshan. Ho: Uh-hmm. Perez: They had done some visioning, 2010 visioning. And, and I don't know, I could, I don't, I can't dig probably for you, but they have it-Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: This document. And in it, they had said they wanted to open Multicultural Programs and hire and do a space. So what happened, I believe, is that there was me saying, “I'm outta (laughs). I'm gone.” The campus not wanting to necessarily just let me walk away. And knowing they had an opportunity for strength and growth under Bridget is when I accepted and changed and came and opened Multicultural Programs. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 7 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Ho: Wow. It's a good thing you put in that notice. Perez: Oh, who you telling (Ho laughs)? 'Cause the campus one, I'll tell you this. And if I'm being quite honest, and I, if I had tried to apply for that type of role--as an outsider to a place, I don't, I would've not received that role. I didn't have the pedigree. I didn't have, you know, sure I had some of the education, but what people used to say at the time is that you're not a traditional Student Affairs practitioner. And I actually resent that type of statement because I don't think there's a traditional student affairs person anymore. Like that's old thinking. Ho: Uh-hmm. Perez: But I would say to you that I think I wouldn't have, I, what, what I believe was happening is I had established strong relationships. People knew my quality of work, knew that I would come in and at least set the ground running. That, that that's what I did. And so, honestly, when I came in, started the position, and literally I was in a cubicle inside on the fourth floor of Craven (Hall) and really had to set the, the vision. And so I met with nineteen, twenty people and I said, “What are our needs on campus? What do we think we should be doing? What do you want Multicultural Programs to be?” And I created oh my gosh, so many programs that first year. Like I was a party of one and a student assistant. But we started, I remember, oh, I can't remember. There's, there has to be somewhere. I did a flag, it had international flags everywhere. And we did a culture of celebration, or celebration of culture. Celebration of Culture was the first event. And then in that time, we started with--I partnered with Jonathan (Pollard) to start the African American Faculty Staff Association. We did the fires. We had the (brush) fires. And so we, because part of my job was volunteerism too. They threw volunteerism and engagement in there. So I did a fire, a drive, a, a clothing drive for the for out of the center for the victims of the fire. I did Soul Food Lunch, helped start Soul Food Lunch, which is gone now, but Soul Food Lunch, I think we did over 20 programs that first year that I was there. But it was all because of what people told me they wanted and what we needed. Oh, Powwow! I did the planning of the (Tukwut) Powwow with everyone. I, oh man. I could try and go back. Like we just, it, it really, I was, it was a way in which I could engage the community and build relationships across the campus. And so that is the foundation for how I really began to, I think cement my knowledge base in DEIJ (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Justice). Was really kind of this piecemealing and building. And so the piece that I will tell you is I, between Bridget (Blanshan) and I, I can't--we advocated for the space next door to Student Life and Leadership. And it's a square wall. It was it--that room? Hon--it is so small. Do you hear me? It is so small. But, we put a couch. I went and got a couch from (unclear) who, I don't know if you know her, she works. I went to her house and picked up a couch. We got--we built me a cubicle in there because I thought it was important to have a separation of space between any students. We did all this stuff. Oh my gosh. We were in there and they tried to come and take that space. I remember one of our academic colleagues, literally, I was sitting in the space and I turned around and she's standing there summing up the space for sure. And didn't say a word to me, and then turned around and walked out. And I remember going to Bridget and saying, “You've got to be kidding me. Right?” Like, you can't come while someone's sitting in the space trying to sum it up for, 'cause space wars were real. Ho: Um-hmm. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 8 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: And I think at that time, people didn't realize the power of a Cross-Cultural Center. And there was intentionality and, you know, we called it Multicultural Programs. And then I opened up the CrossCultural Center, and literally, as I see how you've written it, we had, do you put the dash in between Cross-Cultural Center and do we not? And later on there was the, the version of, is it C3, which we branded and branded well. And then, then people hated that brand, and then they had to move, which is fine, right? But I often, I laugh because I can't believe that the Cross-Cultural name has still stayed. And, and I'm exceptionally proud. This part, we may not wanna put too public, but that's the one center that has had no controversy (laughs) on the campus. Ho: Really (both talking)? Perez: Right? Yeah. Ho: So there was no pushback or anything when you started? Perez: Nah, Nah, none. No. Um-um. And they could have. But I think because the campus was small, I had great relationships. The way in which I did--did it in relationship. It was a community effort. People were engaged, people were support(ive). None. None. But I will say to you too that the way in which we approached DEI work was pretty soft at that time. You know, it was a very supportive nature. I wasn't tackling policy. I wasn't, you know, tackling searches and recruitments, and I was building community and that level of awareness around what we can do collectively. I think I wrote a mission in the beginning. But here's the thing: I will tell you that I was, in my humble opinion, the grassroots person, because I got it going. And gave, gave. And then I was there 18 months maybe, and then I moved to Japan. And when I came back, Alexis Motevirgin had taken it to a more formal place. And, and I was like, I think we had a mission statement back then? But Alexis, I think really formalized the mission and the work. I just, I just was the grassroots starter for all of that at the time. And then Alexis came, stayed just a few months, right? And then I, I think that I hired Augie (Augustin Garibay) and he didn't stay very long. Augie Garibay and then hired Sara, Sara Sheikh. And then she stayed for a little bit and moved on. And then Floyd (Lai), and he's the longest standing. Really, I think built a solid foundation. I was there. So this is where it gets weird. Because I was, I would say the associate director, or the first, however we wanna frame it for Cross-Cultural Center. But I was there from 2003-ish to (200)4 into (200)4, so probably eighteen months. And then I went to Japan, and I was gone a year and a half, and then I came back. So part of my work in the evolution of the Cross-Cultural Center, was when I was the Director of Student Life, and it was in my portfolio. So had the ability--so I was making--I hate, I feel awkward because it's almost like you're bragging. And so I'm trying not to brag. But we used to make lots of deals back then. So I would hustle to make deals for space, quite honestly. And so--we moved Student Life. So this was part of the plan. We moved Student Life to third floor, right? And that in the rotunda, I don't know what's the, it's Guardian Scholars, I think there're now, but it has a weird kind of diagonal room. Ho: Um-huh. Perez: So we went from the fourth floor down to the rotunda, and it was small in an awkward space, small. So we were there not too long. And then I worked a deal to switch. We put Leadership Programs down, I believe, or student org(anization)s down in the rotunda and in Commons 206 area, right across where I think Alumni Affairs is. We got a really good space and partnered with ASI (Associated Students Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 9 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Incorporated), they gave us that space to put the Cross-Cultural Center up there. And that's when the Cross-Cultural Center got its real visibility because it was in a prominent space, gorgeous space. Great. We had couches. Alexis, you might hear in stories about these beautiful red couches. So by the time I came back from Japan, these beautiful red couches were in the space. Those couches have lasted for a long time. People used those couches. I, when I got back, I actually--I tell people at the Chancellor's Office, bought a TV for the space. I wanted to buy a TV to do announcements on this, on the thing. And this isn't, you're talking about 2000. Whatever. And Bridget was so cute. She was like, “What are your student learning outcomes for them?” And I was like, “What?” So, you know, I had to, you know, write whatever. And then some things happened with staffing, and someone filed a whistleblower on me for buying the TV. Because I bought the TV. Uh-huh. And so I had to defend at the--for the Chancellor's office why I bought this TV for this Cross-Cultural Center back in the day. So it's interesting that what we consider is normal, were some things that as you build the infrastructure, right? And, you know, when you build something like this, people want it to be all things to all people. And I think that when I started, that was easy because it was just building. But as you've seen the iteration, I think each of the people who have led it have really had to think about what is the purpose of the center and the space, and how can it be most effective? Ho: So then when you were, when you were building, what was the purpose of it in your mind? Perez: Yeah. I think one, to provide space, a safe space for our students. To be a centralized resource and location. So I would say to you that in some ways I was, you know, the start of a diversity person on the campus in that realm. It was kind of a catchall at that time. I think that it, it--whether articulated or not, was to build really kind of the celebratory awareness events. And have the visibility and do that work to acknowledge the diversity of our communities on the campuses. And I--I'm having a hard time kind of remembering between the two roles, but I began to get brought into, we had an Institute for Social Justice and Equity that was created, a center. And that when I got back, we were heavily involved in. A lot of the bias response pieces because of student life I was involved in. And so I think it became a resource. And when I got back from the CSU--when I got back from Japan, I will tell you that it was then that I--we got really involved in more serious things. So some of the campus climate pieces, the WASC pieces, there was a, maybe diversity committee that was working on a diversity statement for the campus that I think we worked on that for a long time and it never got out. But what did get out of that or come out of that work on that committee was the very first Diversity Officer. And so that was Gary Rollinson, who then I think in that. Dowd, spent some time in that. And then, you know, (Willie) “Derrick” Crawford, and then now, you know, there's Arturo Ocampo and then Aswad (Allen, current Chief Diversity Officer). So, I think it was the foundational really for a lot of the diversity work that was happening on the campus. Ho: So, you mentioned when we first started this conversation, you were really a part of a lot of different communities as a kid. So military, you were adopted, which I imagine had a profound impact on your sense of identity and being. And then moving from place to place and having to integrate yourself into these different places. So, do you think that that this childhood experience of--of being maybe different in so many ways from so many different people, had any impact on, on this career that you found yourself in at CSUSM? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 10 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: Oh, I love this question. I don't know. When I was doing my doctoral work there was a pivotal, a quote that has been pivotal to my life. It says, “Everything changes, everything's connected, pay attention.” And I would say to you that while I was trying to figure out what the purpose of my life was going to be, (laughs) working at GEICO, coming to work in outreach, right? Susan Mitchell, who has since passed away, was a great mentor in telling me I was a leader without the position. Like in instilling this belief in me, I would say to you that every experience I had at (CSU) San Marcos prepared me for that role. That my work in outreach and Student Affirmative Action to the Third Word Counseling Association that I talked to you about, to the outreach to the people that I worked with and the value statements to the engagement that I had as a student. Yeah. I mean, all of that. I think you pull from those as tools, right? What I do think helped is I love the community. And I think to your point I don't think even then I understood as a student what it meant to be an African American woman. I don't know that I understood how all of my identities felt, but I did know what it meant to feel like you mattered and belonged, and how to resource and the support on the campus. That even though I'm not first gen(eration), both of my parents went to college, I know I struggled at points. Like, it wasn't until I applied to go to grad school that I realized I pulled my (CSU) San Marcos transcript, and I was like, “Really? I wasn't that bad of a student. Why did I feel like I wasn't a good student?” Like, I literally did not see myself as a good student, right? I was just doing what I needed to do to possibly get out. You know, my GPA ended up like a 3.11, but all the stuff I was doing and the movement and the, you know--but I, I would say to you that I think that sure, I pull on all of that because you want students to have a good experience. And what has happened since then with my research around a concept called Third Space, I do believe it's our role to break down any obstacles and challenges that students have to face. And I think that's the way in which I've approached the work is that sometimes it's, it's our organizational structures that are weeding students out. And that to me is probably the greatest social inequity of all. Ho: Especially on a college campus of all things. Perez: Especially on a college campus. That's supposed to, while we reflect society, we should often we should be a safe space. Ho: Hmm. Perez: I will tell you that during my time, so you're talking when I was director of SLL (Student Life and Leadership), then the Associate Dean, then Dean of Students, right? So all these are kind of merged, but once the Cross-Cultural Center opened, I had the opportunity to partner with John Segoria and Vicki Hernandez to open the Veterans Center. Then the president pulled on a team of us after a list of demands. And I just, I had the opportunity a few years ago to participate in the Latino Resource Center and helping them get started. And that came out of crisis. And so we created that. That I--I was gonna tell you some piece about that, but oh, that Floyd had invited me back, I think, for the 15th year. Or whatever. And when we were opening the Latino Resource Center, some folks thought that as we were having that, I would, I would raise questions. And I said, “If we, if we open a Latino Resource Center (Latin@/X Center), are we ready to open a center for all identities?” Because that's what's gonna happen. And I'm, and, and people thought I was against it, and I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no.” Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 11 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Because if you look, we had started the Cross-Cultural Center because we understood that the intersectionality of all of our identities. And so we were trying to build the model originally off of the value of the intersectionality. Right? And then as life happens in society and on the campus, there was a need. And so the Latino Resource Center, I was like, I'm not against it. I'm just asking are we ready to open additional centers? And to the president's credit, she was, because then the Black Resource Center (Black Student Center) came, the Dreamer Center came, right? And additional centers. And so I will tell you that when he invited me to come back for the 15th year and speak, I wrote a speech that I had to think about because I was like, where am I at? Is it Cross-Cultural Center or is it all the different identity-based centers? And I will tell you, I was at MiraCosta (Community College) at the time, and I wrote in the speech, I said, until we make DEIJ training mandatory across the institution, because the reality is those that choose to come to the trainings do, but those aren't the folks who are making it a chilly spot. Not always discriminatory, but chilly, and making it difficult for students until they are mandated to go to training and they get to opt out. Oh, we best believe we need centers. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: To get rid of all of the isms, to get rid of all the things that are hindering our students. You absolutely need a safe space. And so I am for whatever identity-based center we feel like we need that can validate students, provide the academic and co-curricular support to students all day, every day. So I put that in the speech, right? That at, at the 15th (year) and tell me that the students at MiraCosta got a hold of that speech somehow, and they were trying to fight for a Latino center. And they quoted that speech and plastered it all over campus, because they also feel like if she's saying that we need that there, why wouldn't we need that here? And so, I will tell you, I've shifted my approach, actually. I think cross-cultural is important, but I, I think identity-based centers as we need them, are critically important until we're going to focus on the entire organization and hold everyone accountable to creating student support. You know, it's not, I--I really, quite honestly, you have a choice to believe what you want to believe. I'm not here to, to force people to believe. But what you can't do, or what you won't do is weed a student out because of your beliefs. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: Or cause an obstacle for a student. That, that we, we need to understand that there are societal injustices, that mirror themselves in our college campuses that we need to mitigate if we're really truly serious about doing this work. Ho: Could you elaborate a bit on--on why identity focused centers are so important and also their relationship to a, a Multicultural Center? Like what, what is, what is the difference, frankly? Perez: Well, I don't know. And I, and I would tell you, I think Floyd's been working on that, right? Because what you probably know is that we had so many discussions in the beginning because the students, it was always busy in the Cross-Cultural Center. But it was our APIDA (Asian-Pacific Islander Desi American) students that were in there and using the space. And so people were like, “Well, you have to have an APIDA center 'cause that's who's in there.” And we had so many conversations in the beginning around how do you diversify the space. Because it's not just about our APIDA students. The reality is it is any student taking territory. Claiming territory. Like what do you do to make sure the space Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 12 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 is, you know, culturally diverse? And at some point, we just gave up quite honestly, because we didn't feel like that was our right to then try and mess with the dynamics. Like create a space where people, if they choose to walk in the door, that they would feel welcome. Does that make sense? But we will not exclude anyone from the spaces like the space. That's what it is here for. And so, I will tell you that I think that I don't know, and I haven't been connected in a very long time, in an in-depth way, if we have ever clearly achieved the, the goal of the intersectionality and how a Cross-Cultural center or could really, really benefit that. I think you would, quite honestly, there's nuances between multicultural and cross-cultural, right? And I think you will play, people don't call, and they may now. Multicultural. And so Multicultural Programs died that, that term. I think I-- and Floyd had it in his title for a while, but I can't remember where that ended up. But I would say to you that I think as we think about the future, that really is the essence. That the identity-based senders, I don't, you can't silo my identity, right? So I am an African-American woman. Does that make sense? I am a military dependent family member. That is a huge, huge part of my identity. I am a woman. Gender Equity Center. I am an ally to LGBTQ. Like, so to think that a student, we can silo the identities of students? But what I will tell you is this, I find community in ways that are authentic to me. So what I love about the identity based, and it's a different idea, is I get to choose which identity I'm (unclear) in those moments. I don't have to pick them, because I do think sometimes in our work, we're back to the melting pot concept, where we're like, “Let's just be all happy and get along.” And we really don't create that space for the uniqueness of our identities to come forward. So what I love about where (CSU) San Marcos is now is honestly, yeah. They were willing to open centers for like, when I was there. There's two other centers popping up, right? You know, what I, what I think is interesting is you have the National Latino Resource Center. And you have the Latino Resource Center (Latin@/X Center), and you have the Dreamers Center. And my question is, how are all of them partnering and working together? And are we creating living learning spaces? Because I will tell you, I don't think you need separate spaces just for belonging. What we need are spaces that allow a student to live and to learn. And often the connection to academic, their academics is critically important. Does that make sense? Like, I will tell you, I do a lot of work around basic needs. This is not a popular statement that I'm about to make, but everything we do for students' basic needs should be connected to them moving forward to achieve their educational goals. Period. If we're not helping a student progress forward or persist, the reality (is) we're not a social service agency. That is not our area of expertise. What we are is, as I see Jennifer as a student, Jennifer has needs, some of them are more immediate, some are more long-term. So, Jennifer, how can I help connect you for your immediate, basic needs, to a community organization? Cal-fresh. Housing. That can help you so that I'm not, I'm, I'm helping you to fish. Not just trying to fix this need right now. Because oftentimes people will say, “Well, Jennifer can't go to school because she has so many life things.” And I'm like, yeah, but the reality is we have to balance, how do we supply the needs? So Jennifer, 'cause that's, that's social mobility for a student. That's what's gonna change a life. That's what, that's what we want. We wanna change our life through helping Jennifer get their degree. Ho: Yeah Perez: Am I preaching to you? But that's what, to me, the crux of what we're doing is, I think every campus is gonna be different, quite honestly. And I think (CSU) San Marcos has found its niche, right? I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 13 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 think when it moved all the identity-based centers into a unit. So that they can collaborate, coordinate, partner. I think it's fabulous. Ho: So do you see do you see a trend with college campuses overall moving from multicultural centers to, to these focused, identity-based? Perez: So I've changed and morphed a little bit too. And I will tell you that it's funny. My, my vision is similar, but different. And I think that's from being at (CSU) San Marcos, but also having the identitybased spaces conversation at MiraCosta Community College, and then Cerritos College, and then now in the system. I would tell you my ideal, which is not new to me. Does that make sense? It's just the model, model that I love, is where you have this cross-- and this kind of was where we had started, but it never got there. Cross-Cultural is the hub, right? But then you would have physical spaces because symbolism matters to identities. But you would have some spaces connected. So you could have your LGBTQIA, you could have Gender Equity, you could have, you know, I'm trying to—Black--you know, all the different centers that aren't necessarily disconnected. The hub is the cross-cultural part. So (California State University) Fullerton, to my understanding, has this model where they have a coordinator for each, but they're all interconnected in their work and in the way they do this. That to me is the ideal quite honestly. I don't think having separate spaces across campuses, across whatever are the ideal. I think having them where there could be a synergy together. I think (CSU) San Marcos is close, right? Because most of them are in the (University Student) Union. They've done a really good job of trying to put everything in the Union. Some are a few out, you know, I used to serve on the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center’s taskforce. And then, you know, I just learned they're working to do a Native Center. And I was like, but you have two, like two spaces, like two, like what's the difference? So, you know, I don't know where it starts or stops. I just think that each campus has to have its hand on the pulse of what their students need. And I think engaging faculty in these spaces matters. You know, that is one of the most critical relationships. Is I've talked about my experiences. You know, it could be a staff member. Absolutely. But your faculty relationships matter. Ho: Yeah. When you were, when you were starting out as this, as the Associate--Associate Director-(Both talking) Perez: Director-Ho: --of Multicultural Spaces, is that correct? Perez: Multicultural Programs. (Both talking) Ho: Multicultural Programs. Perez: Um-huh. Ho: Okay. Thank you. You said you spoke to different people on campus. Did that include students and faculty as well? Perez: Yeah. You know, it--my world was so blended. So the, the, the thing that's a little different at (CSU) San Marcos--so when I left San Marcos in 2016, I would tell you and I give all credit, Lorena, Mesa, Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 14 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 and Checka at the time, they threw a phenomenal party. I would tell you mostly faculty were there, right? So the way in which I navigated the campus was really fluid between Student Affairs and Academic Affairs. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: Yes. I mean, I would tell you, like, can I remember? I--I think I met with Gary Rollinson. I think I remember meeting with advisors. I think students, I don't have the list, obviously. It was 19 years ago. Which is crazy. But yeah, I mean, I think we, we just were more fluid between the organization back then that, yeah, I remember meeting with as many people that would meet with me. Ho: That's great. And did that include students as well? Perez: Yes. But I can't tell you the exact names of the students. Yes. Ho: Oh, that's okay. That's fine. One of my questions on my list here is what did the students say that they wanted? Perez: Yeah. Yeah. I think what's hard for me is what a student would say today and what a student would say in 2004 are very different things. So I think we're, we are more knowledgeable about DEIJ language. And about--I hate to say it this way, but the hatred, the discrimination, the oppression that's in the world. And I think that at the point when we started our work around DEI was still kind of in the--I I hate to say it, in the happy phase. So you know how I said the Latino Center--resource center was built out of crisis, right? And the Black Resource Center, I think a crisis. Veterans Center, not so much. I think it was us being strategic and the community. But the Cross-Cultural Center wasn't built out of a crisis. It was built out of an opportunity to strengthen the student experience and to create a resource for students. So I would say to you that I think students at that point were wanting a sense of community. Does that make sense? Wanting a pla-- a space. So space, which we gave. They wanted the celebratory aspects. Like we talked about the Powwow, and I don't know if the powwow has come back to San Marcos. It was huge, the Powwow, huge, huge! It took months to plan those things. So I went in as the University Liaison to the groups to help them plan that. Gala GATSA for the Oaxacan community. I was on the Gala GATSA community. I remember sitting in the back and, and I think this is me and CrossCultural Center, literally (laughs). I had never been to a Gala GATSA before. It was five thousand people! Do you hear me? Five thousand. We, this was, these were huge community events. I was sitting in the back next to and Humberto Garcia, (Jr.). I don't know if he's still there in risk managing--manager. Girl, they threw whole pineapples and cantaloupes through the audience. I'm literally standing there and I was like, is that, is that a whole pineapple? That's a tradition in the, like, in that, you know. But so for us, I think it was more of just really being there to support students. It wasn't until I became a dean, quite honestly, and I got into to the associate director (position) that I started tackling some of those more difficult, sensitive--it was probably director on that, that I was in those conversations that were tackling some of the discrimination that was happening on campuses. You know, there were many conversations where faculty members were saying and doing things that they shouldn't be saying or doing that I as a dean or you know, would say, you can't, that's, you can't do that (laughs). Like, no. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 15 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 We had a faculty member that were, they were very upset about students and their perception of, and they tried to kick students out of the class. And you know, I went in and the faculty member literally when I went in and said, “What the f are you doing here?” And I was like, “You have a right to an advocate and so do students. And so I'm here as a student advocate.” And so we had the conversation and that faculty member said, “You're wasting my effing time.” And just so you're, you're taught if I'm dealing with this! If, if I'm dealing with this as an administrator, and, and mind you, that person was a person of color that said this, it was not, you know, so I--I don't want to send the wrong, it was a person of color. That, you know, and there's a, a story that I've told, and I'll, I know it's seven (o’clock), but I, there's a story that I, I've told publicly. So I started the, it was the Celebration of Culture. 'Cause we used to do it a lot. The Celebration of Culture in the beginning. And so it was, I think an acknowledgement and recognition, of the work that was being done on the campuses. And I was--we had a first Amendment issue that happened when I was an administrator. And we had a controversial speaker that was on campus that was very discriminatory. And we called a meeting and we had a conversation. And in this meeting were a whole bunch of administrators. And someone was giving examples and they said, well, Dilcie, if you--someone called you the N word--and used the word--we wouldn't, you know, this is what would happen or whatever. And then they went to, if someone called you a whore. And then they went to me. And I didn't realize how upset I was getting in this meeting. And the person that was sitting next to me put their hand on my lap and stop me, just help stop me from shaking. And they said, “Can we stop using Dilcie as the example?” And the person said, “I didn't know if Dilcie was Black. I thought she was a hot-headed Puerto Rican.” And mind you, I was an administrator on the campus. Administrator on campus. And finally someone had enough sense to say, “We need to end this meeting.” So we all went our separate ways. And the next morning went in the meeting and I just, I just, I, I was so upset. So, so, so upset. And so they said, you know, we're gonna have this person, you know, apologize, whatever. And so the person came and gave me a half-baked apology. And so a year, a couple years went by. And they came and asked me to do the keynote for, it was, it must have been Celebration of Culture or something at the time. I can't remember. And I decided that one, I would never share who the person was 'cause that wasn't important, but that we were gonna tell the story. And so publicly, in front of 250 people, Executive Council, we did a split screen. And so the person who served as my ally in that moment, and me had a screen between us and we told the story of what happened that day. And with the point of, you never know when you're gonna need an ally. And you never know, even as an administrator, if it can happen to an administrator, it can happen to a student. And so, (CSU) San Marcos, we say that we're inclusive and that we value these things? We need to, we need to be serious about it. Right? And so at the end of the speech, the room did not move, Jennifer. It was silent. And I thought, oh no, I've lost my job. Like I, it is not good. And all of a sudden it broke out into applause and the room stood up and everybody was so happy. And I received so much support, quite honestly, for that. And the president called me, she said, “Is there anything I need to do?” And I was like, “No.” Like, “I just needed you to hear, there's nothing, thank you. Nothing.” And so a few years later they said, “Dilcie, we're gonna have to put you on a team with this person.” And I was like, “No buddy, no, you're not.” And they said, “Yeah, like, we have no choice.” And I said, “Let them say one dumb thing. I'm telling you I'm not putting up with it. I'm not mess--like one dumb thing.” And this person, and I served on this team together for about a year and a half, two Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 16 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 years. And about after a year of us working together, we were sitting in my office on a, working on a tough case. And they said, “I just want to truly, truly apologize for what happened. I'm sorry. I was ignorant. I didn't know any better. I know better now. I'm very sorry.” To that point, that individual and I are exceptionally close to this day. I have been to their home, have been to events at their house. He knows not to say those dumb things anymore. But he, there is, there is--there is restoration in some of those things. There is forgiveness, there is learning, there is growth. Does that make sense? And so I share that very long story to say that when I think about (CSU) San Marcos is at the core of, no matter what happens at the Cross-Cultural Center, at the identity based cen-it's relation, it is about relationships. When students were picketing over, some things happened at the campus. The president had the reports to the community. And I went out and I was on the picket line with the students. And someone got back to me that someone said, “I don't like Dilcie. 'Cause she's out there picketing with the students.” No, I wasn't, I was making sure the students had their right to use their voice and that it didn't impact the event, but they had a right to be there. And so let's do that in a way that's supportive of them. Right? When the abortion people came, they may still come with the big signs. (Perez holds hands up over her head) We sat down and had a team and said, “Here's the deal. You're gonna have protestors. Let's manage it accordingly.” I remember putting blue tape right down the middle and said, “Here's the space (laughs), and here's your space. Have at it be respectful.” Be--and I walked down and supported both sides as they did those things. Because I think to me while -- and I think a lot of people on the campus believe this -- while we want to be protected from hateful language, the reality of this is the world that we live in. And what we have to do is create a space where all voices can be heard. Ho: Uh-huh. Perez: And you have a right to safety. You absolutely do, but you don't have a right to be unoffended. Because I will tell you that in the first days of (CSU) San Marcos, there were all kinds of speakers that came that I didn't necessarily agree with. But what I loved is being exposed to ideas that were different than mine that helped to validate. Or invalidate my thought process that made me think about what I believed and didn't believe. That to me is the essence of higher education. That's where I think a CrossCultural Center, it's not that you say everything that's popular or bring one side and one belief. You have to be balanced. Ho: Thank you so much for sharing those stories and those memories. They really provide context to what the campus was. And a lot of it is behind the scenes that people wouldn't know, wouldn't expect. Especially students going about their day to day. So thank you for doing that. (both talking) Perez: That's right. There is, I mean, I think they can't, that (CSU) San Marcos is not a perfect place. But what I will say to you is I have, I have the opportunity to view all twenty-three (CSU campuses) now, and I’m oh so appreciative of the DEIJ, the Cross-Cultural Center, the work that's happening at San Marcos in this area. Yeah. Ho: You've mentioned some names of people that you've worked with, people you appreciate, are there, who are some more people that were really important to the Cross-Cultural Center that we might not know about? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 17 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: I--if you haven't talked to Jonathan Pollard, I think you should find him. He was the Dean of Students at the time who, who really said we're gonna make this happen. And he was part of that with Bridget (Blanshan) that did the 2010. And I think he had the original vision for it. So I would, I think he is part of that. I think, you're gonna ask me and I--Janet Perez-Covacevich, I have to think she was the first student assistant in that space. Ho: Hey, I was gonna ask you about your, that student assistant. Perez: Janet Perez. First, and let me give you her number 'cause I know it by heart from even back then. Ho: Okay. Let's do that via email. Okay. And not on this recording. Yeah. (both talking) Perez: Sure. So I can share that with you. And then Sida Munoz, I, she was in the center. She works at (CSU) San Marcos now. She was in the center in the very beginning a lot. I think sleeping and having space, but she partnered and volunteered a lot. We also added the Cross-Cultural Center and Multicultural Programs did the very first alternative spring break for the campus. So that was part of the work that we did that first year where we took students to San Francisco to the Glide to do work in the community. So that's a little tangential, that was more from the Multicultural programs. But it, all of that was flowing out of that space for sure. Ho: Thank you. Perez: You probably have most everybody else 'cause you have all the directors and everyone that worked there, right? Ho: Yeah. Floyd's reached out to--Floyd reached out to a lot of people. So we have-Perez: Yeah-- (both talking) Ho: --A lot of folks responding. Perez: Yeah, yeah. Totally. Ho: Including himself. Yeah. (both laugh) Perez: As he, as he should, he's done a marvelous job. Very proud. (both talking) Ho: Yeah. He really has. Perez: Yeah. Ho: I--how are we doing on time? Perez: I probably could give you a few more minutes and then yeah, head out. Are you clo-- are you good or do you have more? Ho: Yeah, I really would like to know a little bit more about you mentioned this concept of the third space. Could you tell me more about that in general or, and or as it relates to CSUSM? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 18 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: Sure. So during, you know, as folks try and figure out what they're studying and researching, I was exposed and I came, can't even tell you how to, a concept by Homi Bhabha in The Location of Culture that talks about when an individual transitions from one culture to the next, what they do is they take the unique strengths and characteristics of each of those cultures. So take the greatness, the goodness, and then make a third space out of it. And so my work is around breaking down the organizational silos between Academic Affairs and Student Affairs, particularly with the research. But I will say to you that I think that spaces like the Cross-Cultural Center, like identity-based centers are examples of third spaces where you take the unique strengths of faculty and Academic Affairs and the unique strengths of Student Affairs, and you put 'em together. And so the spaces could be, you know could be literally or figuratively. And so for me, as you think about the center space, these are, these should be third spaces where we blend both the best of both worlds. So that's the way in which I approach the work in my daily work, quite honestly, is that students don't care about our organizational silos. They really don't. And so how can we create more seamless, holistic experiences for students? Ho: Um-hmm. Thank you. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Could you tell us what you, what you do now at-Perez: In my current role? Ho: In your current role? Yes. (Perez laughs) Perez: So--so I left (California State University) San Marcos in 2016. I went to be the Dean of Student Life and Judicial Affairs at MiraCosta (Community College). So I was there two years. And then with my boss, who's amazing at the time, thought that I should consider being a vice president of student services. And so I left MiraCosta after two years and became the VP of Student Services and Associate Superintendent at Cerritos College. And so I was there almost four years. And then someone approached me about this job, which is, which was the Associate Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs, Equity and Belonging in the CSU. Right? So really my work now is to bring--is, well, it's hard, but. So I work with all the diversity officers in the system. So I love that, quite honestly, on the system. And so it's been helpful because I have experience doing some of that work and so helpful to highlight the wonderful and important work that they're doing. But my role changed. So I--I am almost been here a year, but I was promoted to Deputy Vice Chancellor of Academic and Student Affairs. And so that was May 1st, but I will be the acting co-executive vice chancellor for the system for all of academic and student affairs. I know it's hard to keep up with. It's we, but it's movement. And so this position will, will really work with the presidents, provosts, and vice presidents. And the funny part is that Nathan Evans, I don't know if you know that name, he is a codeputy, but he worked with me at San Marcos. So we started our relationship there. And so people, the chancellor has seen how well we work together, and so we both were promoted to co-lead the division. Ho: That's wonderful. Well, congratulations on your, on your promotion. Perez: Thank you. It's a lot to take in. I, it's, I'm very humbled by it. But it's a, it's a big gig, so. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 19 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Ho: Yeah. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Cool. I guess we could start wrapping up. Are there any memories or stories or anything that you'd like to share from your CSUSM days? Perez: No, I think I've shared a lot of wonderful memories. I mean, I think of--despite challenges, there really were some pivotal moments that framed me as personally and professionally. When you asked about it, I remember we were trying to beautify the center and Jay Franklin, I think was serving as an interim during that time. And we did a mural and I don't know if you know about the mural, but we came on a Saturday and it was a community mural. And it's so funny because the mural was hanging in the Cross-Cultural Center for years, and finally we were like, it's time to get rid of it. I was like, just let it go. And Floyd would not. And so it's hanging in the College of Humanities, Arts and Behavioral Sciences. The first Cross-Cultural (Center) mural is in that conference room. He had it moved there. And so I, I love that the campus is, I'm telling you, there were no obstacles. And I think that I will tell you that while I know that everyone is not for DEIJ work, that everyone at San Marcos is not for it, I do think that we have tried to address challenges and obstacles in a collaborative, supportive way to start. But I do think that as, as the work continues kind of the way in which we started the rah rah and the hooray, we can't remember, we can't forget, the essence of the work is really in addressing the social injustices that unfortunately have infiltrated their way onto our college campuses. That to me is the essence of the work: is we should be building students up and not tearing them down. We should be beacons of light and hope for societies that are uninterested in confronting the social injustices that have significantly, disproportionately impacted many marginalized populations. That should not be okay. That should not be okay. That if we are telling a student, we want you to come here, we need to do everything that we can to help them be successful. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yes. Ho: That was beautifully said and I appreciate it. I also want to come back to that mural. Could you, in case nobody else in their interviews have talked about it, could you give me a little bit of info on it just so we have it for the record? Perez: Yeah. So it is interesting. The mural we knew we needed, so somebody else in another department, and I think it may have been CAMP (College Assistance Migrant Program), had brought an artist to the campus and talked to us about them doing this mural. For their, for their program. So Jay (Franklin) and I and Dick said, “We wanna do that.” So we paid to have the artists come. And it was a Saturday, and I think it was in U(niversity) Hall, outside U Hall 100. We all were there. And he takes you through this process of where you're thinking about community, thinking about what you want, and then you each had like a sliver of the panel that you did. And I can't remember if he, he must have drawn an outline, I'm guessing, if I remember correctly. And if you see it, there's so many vibrant colors, so many vibrant colors. And I actually think we need to pull it and take pictures and document even more. Floyd probably has access to 'em because I can see, I just remember when I would walk around the room and see what Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 20 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 people put, you were like, oh! And look at you (laughs). Right? But it represented the sense of community that was involved with the creation of the space. You have to remember, Cross-Cultural Center was there before any of the other centers. Ho: Yeah. Perez: It was the first, unless maybe not, maybe, and we have to confirm, National Latino Research Center may have been around. As a research institute base. But Cross-cultural Center, before all the centers, there was a Cross-Cultural Center that set the foundation for those to come. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: So I would say to you that when you look at it, you'll see just the, the diversity, the tapestry of our community at the time. There's so many things in that mural. So you should go see it. So many things in that mural. Ho: Okay, thank you. (both talking) Perez: I haven't seen it in a few years, but definitely check the mural. 'Cause that we did that probably, maybe I came back in 2006, so maybe 2007, 2008. So that was about four years after we opened. So we're celebrating twenty years (of the CCC being open), right? I'm trying to think, is coming up. So we're, I came to the fifteen, I think he's (Floyd Lai) getting to twenty, so it's, so March, they should count March as kind of the opening, I'm guessing. Ho: Yeah, I think it is March. Perez: It was 2004. He's right, it was March 2004 when I started it. Yeah. Ho: Okay. Perez: So I think that that, that, that mural was really a great you know, I'm, I saw Chanel Bradley and um Gerardo Cabral, he, I'm sure some of the other folks, they're on Facebook and saw them. Diana Sal-Saldivar. I mean these were like the OGs of, and you know what I will tell you is I think that then for a while, students came and went like they were good and pivotal, right? But it was different when you were in the beginning. But I see Floyd recently 'cause I'm still on Facebook with some, and it's like, looks like they have a strong sense of community amongst the, the peer educators. And Floyd brought the interns. And so that has made the difference too especially with resources. I do remember as a director advocating for that space though. You know, I'm pretty proud of how we set that space up. There, there was a lot of political navigation in that and took, you know, a lot of collateral and 'cause you know, there people were vying for space, right? But we had a reputation. And in the negotiations, you see we did pretty good. We gave up some of the physical space on the inside to get the patio on the outside (laughs) like when you think there was a lot of strategy in, in the space and how we navigated those pieces. You gotta remember too – now you're bringing up all these memories for me – the, the Multicultural Programs was started with a lottery grant. Lottery. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 21 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Ho: (unclear) mean? Perez: So lottery funds, we had to apply for lottery funds. And they were only supposed to be for like two to three years to get you started. So we had to write a lottery application to get it started, to get, to have funding, to have any programming money. Ho: Oh my goodness. I did not know that. Perez: And then I started making some interesting deals across campus to get other funds. Some we probably don't wanna record, but it got access to, to some, you know. And then, oh, and then before I left, I--oh, I forgot about this! So do you, do they still have co-curricular funds? The pro-- you can apply for co-curricular funds? Ho: I think so. Perez: I worked that deal. And so I had told Bridget (Blanshan), I was like, “We need to stop everybody from going all over getting funds. We need to get the funds.” And so by the time I came back, they had co-- Bridget had co-curricular funds. And so we had this process for co-curricular funds. And then Tukwut Life. This is outside. So in Tukwut Life, this, I did a deal with the president's office on Tukwut Life. 'Cause The president's husband came to me and said, “You need to start some campus traditions.” And so Tukwut Life was part of that. Ho: How did you, did you create Tukwut Life? Was that an original-Perez: With a whole bunch of people. We sure did. Absolutely. Tukwut Life. (both talking) Ho: That's awesome. Perez: We sure did. And I think it's died down a little bit since then, but oh, it was a whole movement. Oh. Ho: What was it? What was Tukwut Life? Perez: It was Friday night and weekend programming so that to make sure that we had night and weekend programs for students because we were increasing the number of residents and we didn't have a lot of community at the time, right? And so we knew we needed some community. Athletics was coming on board in a greater way than it was. And so, and so this is all, this is tangential to the CrossCultural Center. I don't know who I thought I was. I really don't. I think I just didn't ask permission. And we were just a different campus then. I don't know. I was telling someone the other day, I--I'm sure we had policies and procedures. I know we did. But I literally, one day when I was trying to create tradition on, you know, Tukwut Courtyard--I, you know, those stickers on the window, I was the first one to put all those stickers on the window. You know how it has the, oh. And then I plastered the stairs with, with CSU Gear. I had a professional company come out. I don't know who I asked. Like I was trying to think like, “Did you ask anyone? Like who told you you could do?” No, I was gonna create Tukwut Courtyard as a spirit courtyard. I, we held a Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 22 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 pep rally there. But literally I had stairs and, you know, we used to get, I get real happiness, students would come take pictures at commencement time with their family around those, those pictures, yeah. Ho: Um-Hm. Perez: And, but then I couldn't put the stickers up anymore 'cause the concrete's old. So then we had to get rid of them, so we couldn't do that anymore. So then I had to go think about something else. Umhmm. I don't know who I thought I was. I just need you to know. I like, now everything's so bureaucratic, right? No. We just did stuff, we did what we needed to do. Ho: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you just have to not think about it and just do it. Perez: And I, the campus was gracious to me. I also wasn't doing dumb stuff. Right. I was doing things that, but I don't know where I—all of a sudden woke up one day and I was like, I couldn't, I'm hiring a company, put some stickers on some stairs. Ho: Yeah. (inaudible) Perez: But I think that with the Cross-Cultural Center, why it worked, is that I didn't have to always ask permission. I did--I knew what I was advocating for and the campus was gracious enough to entertain that. And I think I had enough credibility at that point that they trusted me. Ho: Yeah. I think so. Perez: I don't think everything's perfect. I probably could have documented stuff better. Literally like when I look at what Alexis did and you, I was like, I was, I was just doing the rah rah fun part. Getting it started. The sustaining it is the hard part, right? So I know what I've learned about myself as a professional. I'm great at starting things like I can get a vision going. Like Cross-Cultural Center that changed and redefined--I would not be here today had it not been for the work in Multicultural Programs (inaudible). I would not, it changed--that one decision to join that team changed the trajectory of my life and my career. Ho: That's really cool. Perez: I'm, I'm pretty grateful. Pretty, I am proud of the Cross-Culture Center. I'm proud of the way Floyd (Lai) has led it. I'm proud and I'm not trying to be funny. I'm proud it has stayed controversy free (laughs). I think it has done important work in really kind, meaningful relational ways. Floyd's out there doing DEIJ work, he just does it differently than someone that's out there yelling and screaming. His work that he's doing in that center, you look at what that center has done – as you are (laughs) – for the campus. He, he has that--each of the directors, I think has added and put their nuance and their flair on that center. And I'm internally grateful that 20 years later I am proud to be connected and associated with such great work. Ho: It really does feel like a center of, of love and acceptance. It's really a beautiful, a really beautiful place. And you can, you can see that from anybody that you, you talk to. They all love the Cross-Cultural Center. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 23 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: It is. And it really is. And he has just furthered that vision. Like we started with that. But the population, like you have to think, we only had, I don't know when I left, I don't even know, maybe 7,000 students at that, at the time when I left, you know, once. And then came back and we grew like in, you know, seven years to 15,000. That's, that center has stayed tried and true. Tried and true. So what that tells me is I, yeah, we set a great foundation but the folks that came thereafter have really done a magnificent job and created a legacy for that case. Sara Sheik, I think about what she added, you know, that's where the Social Justice Summit was started. We were all there. I don't know if they told you. We were sitting there and we felt like people were too much in their heads. Oh, they were just, they, it was outside of them. Outside of them. And we were like, no, no, no. I remember sitting on the swing there and we were like, we gotta do something. So then we created the exercise madder than Hell. Mad as Hell. And we wanted to get them to their hearts. And we did that exercise Mad as Hell. Scott Gross. Scott Gross and I started, Sara Sheikh came in, we created that Mad as Hell exercise. They're probably still not doing it 'cause it seemed like we had controversy at every Social Justice Summit. But we were doing that work with students. And honestly, I went through a training not too long ago and they were doing equity work and I was like, “Uh, we were doing this with students, like first-year students in 2005. And you're literally taking people through this right now? This is outdated work. What are talking about?” Then I think about the students at San Marcos? They were getting that in their first year. You tell me how much different and how transformative that would be for them coming out their senior year. Ho: Yeah. Perez: I'm inspired and moved. Ho: That's great. That's so awesome. Perez: You just made me excited about the Cross-Cultural Center even more. Ho: Wait, say that again? Perez: I said, “You just made me so excited about the Cross-Cultural Center.” Ho: I, I'm really happy and I feel like I'm supposed to wrap up this interview, but I'm afraid that you'll think of more great memories to share and things to say. I don't wanna cut us off. Perez: Yeah. Well here's the thing. I will let you know if some things come up that I think are important, I'll reach out to you and let you know. 'Cause I--I'm, I am so grateful that you all are doing this. I think it is a really critical part of San Marcos and its history. Not just as a center, but in DEIJ work. For sure. Ho: Absolutely. Yeah. And the stories from people who were there, who started these movements and experienced them and made them happen are really important. 'Cause they're not always documented on paper. Perez: Yeah. I didn't do that very well. And I'm sure others, (Ho laughs) we were, we were hustling. We were hustling for sure. Right. So, but we did it. Ho: That's great. Yeah. And we have the proof of it now, celebrating the anniversary coming up. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 24 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: That’s exciting. I'm excited for you. So, well, it's nice to meet you. I hope that we, I just did an official visit there a few months ago, but hope we have the chance to meet in person. Ho: I hope so too! Thank you Dr. Perez. I will go ahead and end the interview now. Perez: Wonderful. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 25 2024-01-26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Perez, Dilcie. Interview transcription, May 30th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dr. Dilcie Perez is Deputy Vice Chancellor, Academic and Student Affairs for the CSU, as well as a California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) alumna. She graduated with her degree in Bachelors of Arts in Political Science. In this interview, Perez explains how CSUSM was ahead of its time in regards to DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion) work; however at the beginning of her employment with CSUSM, the university did not have Multicultural Programs (the predecessor to the Cross-Cultural Center). Perez recalls her work with Multicultural Programs, including her being offered the opportunity to open the program upon tendering her resignation to the university. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dilcie Perez Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Geneva Martinot Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-05-30 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University. Multicultural Programs California State University San Marcos. Student Academic Services Outreach Program California State University San Marcos. Student Affirmative Action Education, Higher Human rights Mural painting and decoration Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dilcie Perez License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-43 Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/24d0b5f1274c5333980a77f42e10980f.pdf fc3ce6202a3c7ec1f83a9311a0316116 PDF Text Text DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Riccardo Savo: Awesome. Alright, so today is April 5th, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. I'm interviewing Dinah Poellnitz for the University Library Special Collections Oral Project. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Unfortunately, you're not able to have the video, so we'll just rely on audio today, which is perfectly fine. And I would like to begin quite broadly if we can, if you could tell me how you became interested in art and how you initially related it to the community or to community engagement. Dinah Poellnitz: Um, then that's like a childhood memory question for me. I'm from North County. My dad came to Oceanside Camp Pendleton in the seventies. I was born in [19]76. I think my dad came out here in [19]78 and we lived on base and if you know anything about North County during that time, it was like, you go to church, you watch sports... and that was it, you know? And my mom's from the South. She's from Louisiana and you know, my mom's about church and we used to go to church all the time. And my mom had a friend named Carla. She was like a wacky woman too. She was just elusive, like all over the place. She used to be an architect and she saw that I loved to draw. And so one day she just gave me her drafting table and I was, I could, I think I was like in -- 11 years-old -- and she brought all her materials and stuff to my house and I was just like, whaaaat? It was like a whole new world. I was just like, wait... there's a table made just for drawing? That happens? You know, it was like one of those moments. And I used to dr-- I wanted to be a costume designer, so I used to draw dresses and fashion all the time on that table. And I had a whole setup. But I just remember just being this little kid who had my own little like, workspace and, and it was just for me to draw. And I was like, wow, there's a, there's... you could do this. Like, this is not a like day, you know, day drawing at home. This like, you could really do this as a, like, as an adult. So yeah, I was maybe like 11 and it was Carla from Fresh Bread Church. <laughter> Savo: That's awesome. So, you began this at age 11 and did you carry this through to your high school? Because I know you attended UC [University of California] Riverside and earned your Bachelor's in art history. Poellnitz: Yeah, I did. You know, like I was a kid that always made my own. Like I made my own. I designed dresses. I made my own prom dress. I sewed it, I wore it. I was heavily into -- It was the nineties in high school. And so, my parents, my dad retired, and then we moved outta Oceanside and moved to Vista for my high school years. And... it was hip-hop era, so I was like into dance and music. So that was all part of art and expression. But I remember wanting to be in the art clubs and I was just like, I can't if that, if art club's about realism and like drawing like things perfectly, I don't have time for that. That's real. I was just like, I don't even, I'm not even curious to learn that. I don't wanna do that. Cause that's what art club was defined as in high school for me. Savo: So would you say that your engagement was more self-disciplined? It was more geared towards how you wanted to engage with it, or more or less, how you could find avenues to apply it? Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 1 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Poellnitz: Um, it was more intentional for me. You know, I like fashion, so I drew. I drew dresses and I designed a dress and I sewed a dress and I wore it. It was just, it was all intentional. It was like just being, it was an action, it was a language for me. It was... it was a skill, you know, I just thought very creatively all the time. Even when I was learning economics, I was thinking about it creatively so it can make sense for me. I think they say that artists are like divergent thinkers, you know? We always find or create and build and make an alternative solution to solve a problem in art. So that's kind of like that, that's a habit. Um, yeah, ‘cause in, in high school, I used to go dancing. I used to go to like, this is corny as hell: I used to skip school and go to the Soul Train and dance in Soul Train in High School. I was just expressive. It was a very creative, like moment as a kid for me being in high school in the nineties, like hip hop was like jazzy like baggy and like there was more Black designers like Dubbo jeans and FUBU and all that stuff came out. So it was kinda like a Renaissance era, even though I lived in, in a little North County and, you know, Blacks were a smaller percent of the community. There's like, that culture was just present when I was in high school. So me not wanting-- Me not wanting to join like the art club for high school and draw something perfectly was just like, eh, I can have fun. That feels like studying for economics. I don't wanna do that right now. I wanna enjoy creativity right now. I don't wanna study it. I was not in that mood. It was just a part of my life, you know? So... and then I used to go to LA every summer when I was in high school to get away from North County and stay with my cousins who worked at movie theaters. And that's when I was exposed to like museums and galleries and, you know, and I took a class at Santa Monica College and that's when I learned like, oh snap, you can learn art history? This is more interesting than like actually drawing the horse, you know? Um, I just learned that art had intentions all the time. Like I was, I was also like poor, you know? And I'm a, I come from a Black family, so to venture off into art, it's just like: you gotta make sure it makes money! My uncle in LA is like, what are you getting a degree in? Are you gonna be able to teach with that? I'm just like, hmm, I don't know, you know, and, but I enjoy it and I excelled at it. And like, I had a teacher, I took like Japanese art history at Santa Monica College, and I was just blown away by the history, like the political history, the social impact, just like everything that you see in art, like how it's a reflection of like moments of history or just moments of inequity. I thought that was very interesting how artists could use that as a language to communicate, to organize, to protest, to be expressive of what they don't like in society. So yeah, I loved art history and that was like perfect for me. Cause when I think about it, I was into dance and music, hiphop culture because it felt liberating. I designed and made my own prom dress because, you know, it gave me ownership. And those are like human right feelings. Savo: And speaking to that, about the ownership and the intentionality, your decision to do art history as a degree and as a major, was that a choice that you made? Was that a choice that you had made from Santa Monica to UC Riverside? Poellnitz: Mm-hmm Savo: OK- Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 2 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Poellnitz: It was intentional. Yeah. So I, when I was at Santa Monica, it was cool. I had a lot of friends and they were like all into politics. I saw Amy Goodman when I went to Santa Monica College. And so I had a lot of friends who were into like, the political and social justice part of education. And I was like, I wanna do art history. <laughs> I like it. I like pictures, I like reading-- images, I love that. I love telling, retelling those stories or using it as a form of communication. But I was like, I think I wanna-- I remember telling myself in our junior college, I wanted to have a gallery space. It was intentional. And I applied to all the schools that had the double major art history and art administrative 'cause I wanted to learn the business side and the admin part. I didn't know what I was gonna do. I didn't know I was gonna get the gallery, but I was like, “Hey, if I wanna work in a gallery, I need to have these skills or just to better understand it.” ‘Cause I have to justify going to school for art history, not just to my family but to myself. Savo: And so you mentioned that you wanted this applicability, you know to translate the skills that you learned in your degree to, to real life and to getting a job. Poellnitz: Yeah to a job--. Savo: Could you tell me a little broadly about your experience with that community engagement and, and political activism and how that helped formulate what is now, you know, the Hill Street Country Club because it's a great gallery in Oceanside and you don't really think about Oceanside being, uh, very cultural. At least you know, the North County, South Bay, in terms of San Diego County in general. But how did that come about? Poellnitz: Um, well I finished school, lived in L.A. for quite a bit. Played assistant nanny manager, like these jobs separate from what I wanted to go to school for because I was living in L.A and I had to learn how to multitask. And I took on like a lot of assistant jobs and one day I was just like, I was working for lie celebrities and like producers and stuff and you know, I saw how things were operating behind the scene creatively for money. And then I also understood the realities of like creating for me and the possibilities. And so, you know, I always kept a job and one day I decided, like me, my husband, we split [up] and me and my little kid, we moved back to North County and I still had my L.A job. So, I was still commuting like three to four times a week from Vista to L.A for my job. Cause they paid me well. But I decided to start volunteering at the Oceanside Museum of Art and their education department, but they didn't have one yet. So, I ended up volunteering with the proprietors. I learned about installation at Oceanside Museum of Art and I was still, I still had my like feet in two different worlds. I was still in the L.A world, but also in my hometown world. I did work at Patricia Korea Gallery in Santa Monica, and that was a very eye-opening experience at the<inaudible>was in college. Just, she was like the only woman of color, like gallery owner. And she only represented brown artists at the time, which was very <inaudible> in Santa Monica. Well, but inequity in like the gallery world when I was in college with that job, I would apply to like the Getty and all types of museums when I lived in L.A. with my friends. But my friends would always get the job even though I had a better CV than them. You know you just accept it. And so I just went back to like doing assistant work and then I decided, I was like, you know what, like I'm gonna lean a little heavy. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 3 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Like now that I'm back in Vista, I'm gonna lean in a little bit more in North County and invest more of my time there. And so that's when I started volunteering at OMA [Oceanside Museum of Art]. Then I learned about the infrastructure of the museum world because, you know, I always wanted to work in a museum. I always thought museums were an amazing place to tell stories and educate. I never knew about the dark side of museums, you know, like how they get art and how they flip art and also like the politics of like hierarchy and institutions, you know, I learned-- I didn't know about that in school. No one ever talked about that in school. We only talked about art history. But once I started volunteering and then turned into a paid position at Oceanside Museum of Art, I learned about institutions really quickly, and I also learned not just about art institutions, but I also learned about like civic engagement and city planning because, I still had my, my foot in L.A so I was used to going to galleries and museums and seeing public art, having friends who got paid as full-time artists or had very creative jobs. I know what's possible. And so, you know, being back home, I just like, “okay, why don't we have public art again." And then I had to like learn beyond what school taught me through experiences. Like, oh, public art is political and it's not, political is a message, it's political because you have to politically know how to create a system so that there can be public arts, right? At the time OMA, no one knew Oceanside Museum of Art exists. You know, 12 years ago no one knew. I didn't even know. I like googled and like looked for art spaces and I somehow, and only because I was intentionally looking for art space in North County, close to home, I found it. But it wasn't like it was vibrant and it was attracting people like me and they should be attracting people like me for living in LA and loving art. I didn't know it exists out of Google art spaces in North County. And that's how Oceanside using a popped up. And I noticed that they didn't have an education department. They had Julia Fister who was volunteering for the education department that she created as a volunteer because she had a big grant with Target to make sure every fifth grader goes to the museum. But she didn't have a office space or studio room for education. It was like she just came and sat at a table and made it happen and fifth graders came. And me and my business partner, Margaret Hernandez, we just decided, you know, we were both in education and we did all the docent tours with the fifth graders and the, and the workshops with them. And we just like had a lot of community conversations with young people, people in middle school, so you learned about their like starting point to art, who in the, in the classroom who visit[ed] that day, who had more access to art than others. Who had materials, who been to museum. You know, you learn so much about the demographics and like, I'm sorry but the demographics were pretty like astounding when you see majority of the Brown/Black kids saying this is their first time. You know. Or you have students ask you if they could take home some of the like, crayons or pastels at home so they can keep drawing. You're just like, dang, kids don't have like crayons? Like how do you not have crayons? You know it-- Or kids asking like, or the one kid who's just like, who knows about art but like, how do artists even make money? Like kids would ask those questions all the time. How do artists even make money? Like what do art, what can artists do? You know? And those were conversations for me ’cause I was always intentional. I was just like artists designed your shirt, the artist probably designed like a machine that's in the hospital that you are using, artists design buildings. I'm like, art is involved in Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 4 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 literally your whole life. You just don't know it. And you probably could have more, but you just don't know it. Right? And so I just started asking questions about how do we get more murals? How do we get public art? How do we have art walk? And I learned that I had to like volunteer with like Main Street, like a commerce type of org, who had a relationship with the city to get extra funding for projects for the city. I had to learn about that dynamic. I learned about putting things on the docket. Like I learned how art was, wasn't just like creative, but it was also political and it was also like [it] required you to engage in the system to understand how to create public art opportunities. You know, it's just, we didn't, Oceanside didn't have an infrastructure for art. Like we've made a lot of improvement, but we didn't have an infrastructure, we had an arts commission, but it was it was in silo and they weren't funding anything and they were just meeting each other, talking about projects around town, you know? The museum wasn't engaged at the time. It was, it was treated more like a private gallery space than a public space. And it was, ‘cause you know, Oceanside Museum of Art is not owned by the city. It's owned by a group of retirees, you know, and there's a lot there. There's also the retirement culture that you have to deal with. Like when we started Hill Street, we were very engaged with our friends and our family and community members. And we worked with people who couldn't get a space or an exhibition. We worked with those artists and they brought their family and friends. Like, it was a gathering opportunity for people. It made sense. Savo: And how were you able to attract these different artists? Were these artists specifically located in Oceanside or were they spread out through across San Diego County? Poellnitz: No it started in Oceanside. It was our friends first. We grew like a concentric circle, if that makes any sense. It was, um, we fit Hill Street like artist, personal, communal, universal. And like this, if I think about how we grew as a concentric circle, it was very personal for me, Marj, to begin Hill Street Country Club because the museum was rejecting all our ideas and they were not being cool or like easily invested in education. They made it very hard for Oceanside Museum of Art to create an education department at the time. And so in support of an education department, because we, you know, we did those docents and we listened to young people. So I'm like, “you need an education department. It's necessary.” We supported Julia and her vision to make an education department for the museum. And we tried to throw our first fundraiser for that vision of hers. And the museum would say no to us. Like, we're like, “Hey, can we do a fundraiser for the education department?" And they're like, no. And then we're asked like, “Can we borrow some chairs and tables for a fundraiser?” “Uh, not right now. No.” And basically like we knew we need an education department like, Oceanside, if you're gonna have Oceanside Museum of Art and you're taking up the city's name and you're having fifth graders come in and you're getting grant money, you need to have an education department, right? And that's just common sense to us. And so we told all our friends the idea of having a fundraiser for the Oceanside Museum of Arts Education Department to support Julia. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 5 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 And one day I was like driving home to dinner to meet Margaret and I saw that the Link-Soul building light was on and they were having a gallery show. And I walked in there and I was just like, this is the art space? And Jeff, who is the co-owner of Link-Soul was just like, yeah. And I was like, this is interesting. I was just so shocked to see a gallery that had a show. And the next day I went over there and met Jeff, someone got him, and I introduced myself and I pitched our fundraiser idea. He, like, he said yes to me, to like using this space for free. And so that was our first event that we organized, and it was called “Open to the Public” and it was about, you know, the need for art education. It was a fundraiser for OMA. And so, we just asked all our friends who were artists in North County and then like people who I went to school with, ‘cause I was taking classes at Miracosta for fun, for art and asking teachers to support it. We had a big turnout, and we were able to donate to the education department and purchase art materials and bags for every fifth grader of Oceanside for that year that visited the museum on that program. So that was like the first time where we were just like, wait, this was successful. People are thirsty. Like it's not just us who want [to] have more like community opportunities, you know, with art. So like I said, it's like we grew a concentric circle because we started off very, it was very personal for us to do that. And then once we had our first event, we understood the like community purpose. Like, oh this is not just us, this is a community issue too. We want, we want more opportunities to do stuff like this and we don't have it. It was like, “I want more of this. Like how do we, how do we keep doing this?” And so me, Margaret, just because we couldn't afford our own space and I still working back and forth in L.A, we just did pop-up art shows for like two solid years all over Oceanside. And then we went to community art events or like art events in San Diego because they had more of a presence of art for us back then, ‘cause we weren't really doing much as a city. So, we would go to events and openings in San Diego all the time. I don't know, it was this became very like, personal and communal. And then most of our artists are like working class, queer, young, old, um, more vulnerable, you know, and to like, to all kinds of things. And so, like most of them never had an opportunity to have an exhibition. They like paint it for themselves or put their art in a store, but no one's ever invited them to do an exhibition. And we would just invite artists for exhibition. But it was a curated experience, you know, and a lot of it was just, we choose artists that, that we shared messages with. I don't know, it just became a very organic growth. Savo: This is excellent to learn about. ‘Cause I didn't know that there's so much underneath, in terms of the layering, in terms of structuring, in terms of networking that's involved. Could you just clarify briefly who exactly Jeff and Julia are in relation to the Hill Street Country Club? Poellnitz: So Julia Fister at the time was the education director at the Oceanside Museum of Art. And she was one of my- me and Margaret's mentor. She now owns Studio Ace in Oceanside where it's focused on youth and like art education, which is really cool cause she's in the valley. Very much needed over there. And then Jeff, Jeff Cunningham is a artist but is the creative director for Link -Soul, which is a golf apparel company. Their design team is based in downtown San Diego. And we share, we co-op a space with them. That's where we have our gallery. And Jeff Cunningham is a phenomenal artist. Like I Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 6 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 curated him for a show for Oceanside Museum of Art. And our friendship, just like it grew from like me being a curator and an artist and him being an artist and us really like exchanging ideas about social impact and how do we create an art space that's different, that's more authentic and doesn't have all these pressures to over-perform, be productive. And so like, it's natural. It's interesting ‘cause he said yes to us having our first art show at his space and then he ended up giving us this space for Hill Street. Savo: That's awesome. And since Hill Street has been open and been around in the community, how has the gallery become that space where it's not just the ideas or expressions that are being presented, but how has that space become a platform really, sorry... How has that space become a platform for activism? Because, you know, you noted in a 2020 interview with KPBS that art is a functioning tool that should transition off the canvas. Poellnitz: Hmm-hmm. Savo: How has Hill Street Country Club played in that part? Poellnitz: You know, it's so funny cause every time I get asked like, “oh are you an artist too?” Like,” yeah, I'm an artist, I make work, but I don't make it anymore.” I was like, I make, I build art, you know, I can build stuff. But right now, my art is Hill Street Country Club, and you know, it's, it goes back to college and me like learning about all like the social impact and inequities in the world through art history. It goes back to that. And it goes back to like, you know, artists are some of the most vulnerable people because first of all, you're not respected with pay whatsoever, ’cause you have to remember like, I knew I had to get paid to do this or I shouldn’t be doing it. I should be like a teacher or an engineer or a therapist. Like, you went to school for art and people need to get paid for that. So we live, we live in North County where there's, we were spending like 10 cents per residence on art funding while like San Diego at the time was spending ten dollars. So, and then also trying to convince older peers in the art community that they had to pay for admin stuff that we organized. And then thinking that everyone had time to volunteer because at the end of the day, we had a large retirement class that was in charge of the art community in Oceanside and Vista. You know, they didn't see the value of paying younger people to help them with the arts, you know, there's uh cultural differences. And that being said, you know, to get paid is not just like, to get paid is the equity issue, right? And then not only to get, you know, to get paid is the equity issue. And if you're like Black and people don't even take you that, if you look at the museum stats and gallery stats for like, artists and like people who make it, you already know. You're like, you're dealing with so many microaggressions, you're dealing with some unresolved supremacy issues. Like I always tell folks like, hey, check this out. Like, um, it's okay if you're racist, I get it. You're not me. You don't have these experiences and you have to unlearn and I'm gonna give you grace to unlearn, but I'm always gonna speak up for what I-- what you Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 7 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 did. And I'm gonna not call you out, but I'm just gonna call you in and say like, “hey you know what you did was kind of racist could you not do that?” And I learned that was always like a threat to people when I was honest and like gave them grace at the same time. And I learned in the art community that they're not ready for those conversations at all. Or like, just to like unlearn and do better. So, but because I have ownership of my space and I don't work for anyone and I don't have a board that disagrees with my politics, I have a lot more autonomy than a lot of my artist friends or my art admins who work in museums and high-end gallery spaces. And so I get to embrace artists that are political, who are in the streets, who are organizing, who are building different collectives or opportunities for relief or whatever they believe in. I have a beautiful space. I also share my autonomy with them and I support their work. And because I believe in equity too. Cause I'm trying to get paid, I'm dealing with microaggressions. This is personal. Like what, what affects you is affecting me. And also, I'm like, I just don't like people being in pain. I'm an empathetic person. I, I don't know, I'm pretty radical politically, so I have to-- if I have my own autonomy, I'm gonna use it. I'm not gonna shy away from that. And the artists that I admire were doing that. It went that I was learning art history. They were telling a story, they was telling us how wrong this was and that was. Like, they're pointing out problems and they're doing it in the nuances of art. And I think it's very important for artists to tell those stories so people can gather and discuss and find solutions or to just build creative- what is it critical mass? No, I think it's critical mass is like valuable, once you learn it's not just yourself. It's like a Power in Numbers game. Savo: Would you say that speaking to it's a power in numbers game, do you think that that has changed your perspective on the, the personal communal and universal experience that Hill Street Country Club offers? Because obviously since it's opened, now since the pandemic 2020, do you think that it's become a situation where art more than ever needs to be more expressionist or more, um, as you say, it has to be more, you know--? Poellnitz: Yeah,- Savo: It has to be more- Poellnitz: It should be. It should be. You know I was just talking to my colleague Astrid Gonzalez, she is one of the Hill Street colleagues. She does all our audio-visual stuff. And she was reflecting the other day and she was like, “we really never stopped working during the pandemic.” I was like, we didn't, we couldn't afford to. We're vulnerable. We don't have board members with money. We don’t have-- like the reason why we can do all that we do is because we have people aligned with our principals who agree with us and who are not scared support what we're doing. But at the same time, to get paid in this art world, you gotta have some like, dirty person on your board. That's just reality. Like, you gotta think Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 8 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 money. And it's, that's just how it works. It's an institution. Like every institution in America has flaws, right? And during the pandemic, we stayed open. We were very creative of finding creative ways to stay open and accessible to our audience and to our artists. Cause a lot of my artists during the pandemic were dealing with poverty, food, needed food, like, mental health. The pandemic was messing people up in the first like two years. And a lot of my artists were affected by that. I worked with a lot of Brown and Queer and old artists, you know, and in this economy, they were suffering. And so, I had to figure out how to be a safe space and use my space for opportunities for people to get access to food or help folks get access to mental health services or even a distraction like coming, making art. I had to stay open for two and a half years during the pandemic, while a lot of big museums were closing and doing bare minimum because they didn't wanna get Covid. So, I don't know, my space has always evolved and adapt, because it has to. Savo: Speaking to- Poellnitz: Right now—Go ahead- Savo: Oh no, go ahead. Poellnitz: I forgot what I was going to say, go ahead. Savo: Speaking to the space having evolved, you mentioned that Hill Street became a space that allowed for those economic hardships of the pandemic, to kind of be alleviated for your artists. Could you speak about the political upheaval? Because we all lived through 2020 and we all know how painful it was during April, May, April through June of 2020. How did that come about? How was Hill Street a space for comfort, a space for expression? Poellnitz: Yeah, that was interesting. Cause like I'm the only like Black gallery owner in San Diego. And I've been doing this for so long that I, I belong to extended part of the San Diego art community that a lot of folks don't see in North County. Like I know a lot of people in museums and galleries and stuff like that. And I know a lot of people in City government and Federal government. And so, you know, during that time it was just like, this is when you make art. This is when you talk about these issues and you use art as a language and as a tool to have these community conversations. But also, this was also opportunity for us to do mutual aid. We went into care mode, like how do we care more about people? Like how do we care back? Like how do we take care of each other? Because during that time we know who's not taking care of us, we know who doesn't protect us. And it was more like being available to protect and provide care. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 9 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 I kind of miss those days. Those were the days where we were talking about liberation and how to use resources to create safe, safer communities. We were talking about solutions for the first time out loud as a public. We were sharing empathy with each other. I thought it was a beautiful opportunity for us to build something new. But it was also beautiful to see that we could be in solidarity. I had people who knew me in the business community of Oceanside, but never went to our events. Always knew what I was doing if I went into their store or their restaurant or coffee shop or whatever. And that was the first time a lot of those folks came out and donated to us. <laughs> You know, like checked on us. And I was like, “Wow, this is the first-time people cared about what we are doing over here. Like, this is interesting.” And I think there was a fear for a lot of folks like “I hope this isn't discourage her.” Or maybe I'm just thinking that in my head, I don't know. But I did see a lot of people come out the woodworks who started supporting us. And it gave us funding to create more programming and we kept going. So, I don't know. I was just adapting. I think that's what you do when you're in survival mode all the time. Savo: And since the pandemic, obviously the adapting to the circumstance and situation, have there been any local projects or exhibits that you've, partaken in or helped organize that reflect those changing structures or those change in activism? Cause you mentioned a lot about talking about solutions and you mentioned how there's this real need for concern for one another, this care for one another. Has there been any of these projects that reflect that? Poellnitz: Yeah so we got really involved during the pandemic. We created like a mental health like group therapy program for young middle school kids, “The Social,” and it was just like, we had a license. We have a licensed therapist, one of our artists, and it's like a group therapy through art, but also peer on peer because a lot of young folks were isolated from each other during the pandemic. And they're still coping with, you know the environment they had to live in, to stay away from everyone and not getting us sick to die. That's kind of traumatic. And then we're asking them to like, go back to normal real quick so we can jumpstart our economy. So we created a program, “The Social,” with the therapist for young people. And now we're gonna be part of the Oceanside Unified School District programming for summer, fall, and winter, I mean summer, fall and spring now. So we're now like, we created a program that's gonna be in the school system that provides mental healthcare for young people who need it the most. And then we just recently had an exhibition with <inaudible> Roca Gonzalez, who lives in Oceanside, who's from Puerto Rico. And they're working about all these social issues and we're coming together and recognizing we are a product of gentrification and colonialism. We live through it every single day. Like we have all this architectural vernacular that reminds us that we're all living through this. It's not just Puerto Rico, you know, it's everywhere. We're all surviving. I've been able to sit on a lot of committees and boards and be part of more equitable decision making for artists that I'm excited about that's gonna be coming out soon with the city of San Diego, helping a lot of like artists get access to money. That was like one thing that I did during the pandemic, was I did sign up on committees and boards because I'm just like, “You guys are making this process way Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 10 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 too difficult for people who have to work full-time jobs and take care of family.” Not everyone's out here just being an artist on retirement mode and can fill out all these questions and type all these like, letters of intent. You gotta make this more equitable-like process for like poor people with very limited time, you know? So it was part of a San Diego artist project that raised like $150K for artists in San Diego. And we made the process so easy that a lot more like trans and BIPOC artists actually applied and received funding to be a artist over the pandemic. That was amazing. I mean once I decided I was committed to equity and inclusion for myself, everything I do affects everyone. As a Black woman, it just does naturally, like we're-- The stats prove it. If you improve my life or if you improve my life in your surrounding, you benefit from it. Like literally, like if Dinah says she wants more vacation days, I work too much and because I, and I don't normally give vacation day. Oh my God, imagine if you give it to me, you're gonna have to give it to my coworker. Not everything I want, everything I need because equity benefits everyone. So I understand a lot of my personal experience or communal experiences and has universal like means that needs <inaudible>. Savo: And I was just curious, because we were speaking about these different programs and different committees that were happening during the pandemic. Before we jump back to the equity portion that I'm really fascinated to know more about, how were these committees and how were these programs organized? Were they all organized remotely? Were these children or these group therapy sessions that you mentioned, where were they held remotely or was there a creative space for that? Poellnitz: We did it at the gallery space every Saturday. Every Saturday. And our therapist had a baby. So, they're coming, they're gonna go back in the summer. They're gonna start back in the summer and we're gonna be at Jefferson Middle School. Last year we had a four-week social camp with them, with community artists and the therapists as a camp. And it was four weeks of campers and we had four cohorts of students and we're returning to that program in the summer. And we'll be returning with like regular art programming with Oceanside Unified School District on top of providing the Saturday space for the students again for group therapy. Savo: And I'm also curious to know like what kind of activities were these students engaged in when it came to the group therapy sessions? Because obviously this is a period where, it's a lot of, where social distancing was a very key thing and masking was also very important. How are these exercises or how are these sessions organized? What were these specific activities? Poellnitz: Well, it's so interesting ‘cause we kept over going through the whole pandemic. We, Hill Street changed its whole operation system to be more appointment-based. And we created capacities. We were very highly sensitive about Covid, like people had to wear masks all the time. We provided, Dr. Bronner’s used to donate tons of like hand sanitizer. Like we used to give like little packets out to people who came visit the gallery space. If anyone wanted to see an exhibit, they make an appointment. They would have the space to themselves for 20 minutes to visit the exhibit. And we wouldn't be in the space with them. We'll be like upstairs above where, you know, the distance, like it basically were by themselves. And then with “The Social,” “The Social” was like every Saturday. We had a capacity, I believe of like eight students at a time. And so, we have the space for people to spread out. And then Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 11 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 everyone had materials. I mean, it was really easy to manage. I think when people care for each other and they care that they have a safe space, people make sure they don't show up sick. People made sure to wash their hands. People made sure to keep their masks on. We did have a lot of workshops on Zoom. We had a lot of artist’s talks on Zoom. We had like – what is it called? We had AR [augmented reality] gallery exhibitions. So if you couldn't see the work in person, we recreate gallery space online, and people can navigate and look at art online as if it was in a gallery space. Savo: That’s really interesting-- Poellnitz: Yeah, we did a mobile art workshop. We got a grant right before the pandemic hit and we were supposed to have all this programming in every community center in Oceanside, but it was Covid and so we had to adapt, and 'cause they already gave us the money for it. So, we created a mobile art kit and like a lunch bag and it was like all the materials to like the perfect measurement and quantity that you needed for that project. We had our exhibition artists create a project and give us a list of materials for that project. And we used to do like a whole visual, like YouTube recording of how to create the piece. And then we did like a live Zoom and Instagram workshop, but anyone with a library card was getting mailed a mobile art workshop kit from us. Yeah so, we did a lot of organizing through the pandemic to stay open. It wasn't just simply being open, like we had to reorganize like our operations. We created an appointment system, we created more QR codes for people instead of like, there was no reason for anyone to touch anything in this space. People were able to pull out their phones and QR code and read like the show statement. And then we had Zoom workshops and people will get their MOD kits and you know, we did a lot of cool things on Zoom. It was fun. I don't know, you just learn how to care for people! Savo: What do you think was the— <Poellnitz and Savo talking over each other> I’m sorry. Poellnitz: Go ahead, no you go ahead. Savo: What do you think was the reception towards all these different restructuring and different outreach? Were people positive? Poellnitz: People were positive. People were very positive. And not only just positive, but our audience grew. We were more accessible to people outside of Oceanside. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 12 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Savo: Do you think that broadened the scope of Hill Street? Do you think it helped? Do you think it helps sort of bring a lot of those ideas and those concepts from the North County down to the South Bay? Poellnitz: Oh for sure. When I moved to Normal Heights a year and a half ago and people were like, “oh, you're here now. I'm like, yes.” And then just we love everything that you're, like, people from the arts commission knows what we're doing. Like I see a lot of gallery spaces and museums who are working with artists I worked with now. Worked with like five years ago, two years ago. I see the influence of our work on visuals. I see a lot of art spaces in San Diego, like institutions with bigger budgets, now creating visuals about their space. And I know we influenced people over the pandemic. They tell me and sometimes their programs look like it. It's wild. And it's like, wow. We did a lot over the pandemic while they sat still and they just watched us. Jeff always tell me, he's like, “you can't be mad if people are copying. Isn't that what you want?” I was like, “Oh yeah, that's how that works, huh?” Like, you influence people and they do the things you want them to do. Like have more like Queer folks or Black people or do more of this type of art. Like, oh they are listening, that is an impact. I didn't think about it like that. And he's like, “Yeah you just keep doing what you're doing. If they wanna do what you're doing in, see how far you can teach them, see how far they're willing to go.” And you know, that's, that's been like the best advice I've ever had doing this work. Because it's true. When you have autonomy and you could do whatever you want or say whatever you want, or stand by what you believe in, you have a bigger impact than the person who's quiet and not doing anything ‘cause they're scared. Savo: And speaking to that, that wanting to take initiative and be expressive. How does that coincide with some of the challenges that you were mentioning earlier about equity and inclusion? How do those two sort of intertwine with one another? Poellnitz: Dude, it's because it hurts. Because a lot of like organizations, a lot of people who do fund the arts are scared. They just scared of change. People are scared of change. And so there's always gonna be resistance. There's always gonna be the folks with resources who can like, jump like pounce on your idea. And because they have money, they can do it sooner and faster and get more visibility. That's gonna happen. It is exhausting. It wears you down, it discourages. Makes it harder for you to get access to grants or, or donors. But then at the same time, I've just been thinking about this a lot lately. Cause you know, Hill Street, we're at a point where I'm kind of exhausted, but at the same time I know why I'm exhausted and I gotta do things differently and I have to be a little bit more strategic now, like where I wanna go because I notice that a lot of people are watching us. And then people have a lot of expectations for us. And there's also a lot of opportunities for us in the position that we're in because of the work that we've done over the last ten years, you know? And especially the work that got highlighted during the George Floyd protest era. So, like I'm hyper aware and I'm being a little bit more wise about who I partner with. I'm being a little bit more wise on how often I say no because I was a person that never said no before. And Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 13 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 because I never said no, I got burnt out and not paid a lot. And I'm learning that me as a Black woman, my rest is very important, but it's also important that I have equity so I can get paid to do this work. So, I've just been thinking about how to slow down and sometimes less is more like I don't have to be over the place. I just need to be effective where I have intentions. So, it's like pulling back to that personal space has been going on with us lately. Like this being more local, bringing it all in, focusing on what we're strong at, getting into contract with the Oceanside Unified School District. Like that's a healthy source of funding for us. Instead of chasing donors who don't share our principles, I think artists and art organizers need to ask themselves like “Why are you here? What vision do you have? What community you belong to? What are your principles?” I think those are questions that anyone in the arts needs to ask themselves. Just be honest with yourself and if you could be honest with yourself, you should always know the choices that you're making. For me, I realize I wanna be my own institution and there's gonna be some hardship ‘cause I won't be conforming to a lot of institutional like practices. I will be creating new practices. I'm highly aware of the up and down of this art world for me. For me. And I'm honest with myself. So it's easier for me to commit, but because I'm honest with myself, I create ways that can sustain me. Like, I do more like art consulting jobs. I collaborate more with non-art, institutional spaces, you know? I work a lot more with community members who are in the political scene. So I understand like the fluidity of art. And if you're heavily relying on the same funders that fund the problem, yeah I would have concerns for the equity. But if you are creative and you know your worth and you are honest with yourself about why you're here, you always can find a solution. And because that's what's worked for me. Savo: And speaking to equity and how Hill Street has evolved over the past ten years, what do you think are some of the things that you personally wanna see for the Hill Street Club? You mentioned that you prefer more local engagement. You prefer being with individuals that are more like-minded in terms of art expression, in terms of inclusion. What are some of the hopes that you have for Hill Street moving forward? Poellnitz: I would love to have a community school. I want a community school. I worked for a nonprofit in City Heights and we worked with community schools that worked with juvies. They call them JCCS like Juvenile and Correction Community Schools. And they're like directly tied to the unified school district and the court system. At one point when I was heavily involved in politics, I was working with a former city council member in hopes of becoming like a divergent program for youth in the arts. So like, if a kid got arrested for the first time, instead of like putting them on probation and sending them to jail, you send them to like a diversion program. And the city of Carlsbad Police Department is the only police department in San Diego County that has an actual diversion program for youth. And so, you know, you get to be an organization as a choice for, for young folks and teach 'em all the skills, like how to create programming, how to run programming, how to make art. It's like a six-month commitment. I wanna do something more like that. I wanna have a community school. I wanna teach art the way that I experience art, the way that artists experiencing art. I wanna create a new institutional space for art Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 14 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 practice. I don't know, I just really wanna grow as a bigger institution, as a choice, as an alternative choice to other places. Savo: And obviously you've given a lot of thought to the idea of this community school and obviously diversion programs as well, such as Carlsbad's. Do you see potentially a branching out of Hill Street? Moving forward within not just North County, but also San Diego County as a whole? Do you see elements of what you've been able to create and to adapt with? Do you see any of that being replicated any elsewhere in the County? Poellnitz: Um, not yet, but we partner with a lot of folks in San Diego so we are very unique because we have to adapt. One thing you learn about our institutions, old ones, they can't adapt. So, when they can't adapt, they move slow. They struggle with adapting. And one thing about us, because we don't, we don't follow institutional like, uh wisdom. A lot of us are taking in diverse knowledge from each other, practicing being inclusive. And once you do that as an action, you can make decisions a lot sooner than later. And so we've been doing a lot of like partnerships and pop-ups with a lot of orgs in San Diego. I just want a community school. I want a community school. I want studio spaces for artists. I would like to have a choice for young people to learn about art and not just learn about art but have creative access to like a space where they can learn about the world and express themselves. Like I would like to have a community school. I have no aspirations to be all over San Diego County. That sounds like a lot of work. <laughs> Savo: Oh, absolutely <laughs> Poellnitz: And I worked with a lot of people in San Diego County. I love you San Diego, but North County is so special. Like us North County people, we are so innovative 'cause we've had so little. And when we learn something new, we master it because we don't have all the museums in galleries and big budgets that San Diego has or L.A has. So we are very mom and pop and DIY in North County and we support each other. And so, I don't know, that's the civic identity for me. You know, that's part of my civic identity. Savo: And speaking to this, sort of bring it all back in identity, the personal, the communal, the universal that Hill Street represents. Do you think that a community school would be a perfect foster for that? And I'm just curious about the age groups. Something I'm actually quite interested about, would this be open to not just middle schools, the middle school age range that Oceanside education part has worked with, but would you extend that? Would you put a limited K through 12 per example? Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 15 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Poellnitz: I don't know. I don’t know. That’s a lot of years. <laughs> Savo: It's a lot of funding. Poellnitz: It's a lot of funding. I know that the folk at Link-Soul, they run the Goat Hill Golf course in Oceanside and it's already been promised to us that we will build some type of like, institution space for a community school one day. So, we're all dreaming like what we wanted to have. Savo: That's awesome. And just before we wrap up our interview here today, was there anything that we had previously discussed or discussed throughout the interview that you wanted a little bit more emphasis on or anything that you wanted to touch base with before we end today? Poellnitz: I don't think so. You're fine. Savo: Awesome. Again, thank you so much for this interview. It was really informative, and I think it's great to learn about how art has really grown in North County. Because I'm from the South Bay, so I wouldn't know too much. But I think this was a great experience and I thank you a lot for that. Poellnitz: Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 16 2023-04-24 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview transcript. April 5, 2023. Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Interview discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion. Poellnitz also discusses operating her gallery during the pandemic, and future aspirations. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dinah Poellnitz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-05 Subject The topic of the resource Art -- Study and teaching Art galleries -- nonprofit Artists, Black Community Engagement COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside Women artists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Los Angeles (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Vista (Calif.) 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Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-025 Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4cb4071e4b68b0a4322bc9e8ac6d7228.pdf e64e54578e88c9f2be9c650b7c67c406 PDF Text Text LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn't exactly a very pleasant childhood, let's put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother's house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written “Master.” And I didn't know that word--I didn't. So, she told me what it was, that it was a “Master” and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister’s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister’s name because of what's different than mine. And, uh, it was “Miss” and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, “There's something wrong here.” And I think, “I'm supposed to be more like the ‘Miss.’” (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that's why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That's one of my earliest memories. After that it didn't get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn't, I ended up joining the Navy. But that's (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn't exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that's how I felt. So, it wasn't an easy time, believe me. But that's pretty much my basic childhood. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 1 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I'm sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn’t--I didn't even, I don't think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them “transsexuals,” which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that's the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister's clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn't do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn't want “my kind” there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I'm like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, “mentally disturbed,” because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to “fix them,” so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn't, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I'm one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we've come, there's still much further to go. So. Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that's okay and talk about your years in activism. You've been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I Transcribed by Julia Friedman 2 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn't start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn't come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn’t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there's even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn't understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I've heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn't even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say “No,” because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that's what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don't have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, “I want be like that person.” Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, “Oh, that's me when I grow up.” But yet, then I find out that they're either the joke or they're, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I'm like, “Okay, well, that's not me.” So, I'm not like that, but you know, here I am, that's who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn’t alone and there's a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we've been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I've been around forever (laughs). It's just so something that hasn't been known, that's all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There's some tribes that don't even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn't have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl Transcribed by Julia Friedman 3 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Friedman: Wow. That's really interesting. And I'm glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn't say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don't agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they're the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, “Hey, they're like me and you know what, they're okay. That's an engineer, that's a medical doctor and that's a lawyer,” you know? “This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it's not so bad.” So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn't start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can't remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I'm here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender Transcribed by Julia Friedman 4 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, “Oh, that's the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff,” but there's so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let's say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I've worked, I've had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, “Get that thing out of my hospital.” So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she's permanently disabled, because she didn't receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn't make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they're no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn't know how to deal with this. I didn't know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I'd tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop—help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you're talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn't want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I've never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual Transcribed by Julia Friedman 5 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 that's on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that's been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there's a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they’re wondering, you know, “Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?” Um, you know, and, “Can she have her name change? Can she get women's clothing? Can be isolated so she's protected away from the general population?” All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state's laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it-we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year's. So, she was like, “No, no, no, no.” (both laugh) So, of course I've moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, “You know, I'm an--I'm an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?” So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, “What can I do to come?” (laughs) You know? “What can I do when I get out here?” (laughs) “Where can I go?” He's like, “Don't worry, we'll put you to work.” So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, “Hey, it's along the lines,” because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn't too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for MediCal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn't worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 6 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 We had, I don't know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we're remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn't want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I'm sure it's at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there's less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that's an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I'm a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that's something that people don't see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I've got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It's usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it's so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it's more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the “intersectionality of marginalizations.” So, you know, that's why that particular day is so important to me, even though it's a somber day. And I'm glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I'm hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that's what the grant is called, “Fight the Hate.” (laughs) So, you know, it's an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I'm actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I'm also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I'm also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I'm, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I'm privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don't have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we've done, there's still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It’s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you've learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn't be able to get their rights. That's what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 7 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn't get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they're trying to pick up these supposedly “men” that dress as “women,” which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it's because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbians stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn't make sense. And believe it or not, there's still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I'm with another woman, I consider--I'm sexually attracted to other women. I'm romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There's a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I'm not a lesbian because I'm a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they're out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there's still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we've actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I've looked into is--and I hope I'm not premature in saying this. I've been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I'm doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I'm on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there's more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that's my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that's where me, that's my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that's--that's my life--that's my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for Transcribed by Julia Friedman 8 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I'm a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it's happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, “Hey, we've got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you.” Friedman: That’s awful. Pronovost: So, they're going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it's so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it's ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They’re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don't have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people's HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state's forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA's a national law, It's not a state law (laughs). They shouldn't be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the “Don't Say Gay Bill” in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida's bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we're going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say “You're gay.” There's another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that's very similar to Texas's bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, “Oh, it's become a ‘popular thing.’” It's not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 9 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that's why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months’ time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they're--the thing that I'm looking at is I'm hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that's my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that's more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we'll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don't think it's that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there's certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what's right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there's even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You're looking at very, um, I don't like to use this because I don't like to use somebody's name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don't like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let's take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, “Trumping somebody” is overcoming is somebody. So that's what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don't like people like me. You know, I've had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they're having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That's the only thing that they can't change because that's a legal document, Transcribed by Julia Friedman 10 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, “Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max.” And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that's not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren't, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That's the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there's a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it's mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, “granola-ish,” if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It's very similar. The fight's the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they've raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag's never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I'm hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you've already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I've learned so much it's hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I've had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world's largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- “Where where's the donuts and coffee?” (laughs). That was the type of look I got. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 11 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 And, “Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?” When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man's field and being a woman trying to make it in a man's field. And, and so I don't—[connection froze]—People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that's what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that's one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can't go out there. I can mention about it, but I can't go out there and say, “You know, we need more protections for trans women of color.” I can say that, but, you know, I don't experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I'm not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that's the main thing I've learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn't just about any one person, it's about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we've covered so much. (both laugh). I don't know. I don't think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It's a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we've done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I'm just happy to be here. Like I said, that that's my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I'm hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 12 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you've been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You're very welcome. And it's my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it's our pleasure (both laugh). Transcribed by Julia Friedman 13 2022-11-08 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pronovost, Leea. Interview transcript. April 8, 2022. Description An account of the resource Leea Pronovost was a transgender activist and has advocated for transgender and LGBTQIA+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Most recently residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost was a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she worked as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chaired the Gender Advocacy Project, and was a grant writer. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leea Pronovost Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-08 Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ+ issues LGBTQ+ rights Transgender people -- Civil rights Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) Springfield (Mass.) 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-18 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-11-08 Activists and activism Community history History Department internship LGBTQIA+ experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5e839af9501fe838b004cf7e4bd526cc.pdf e0f7a19beae2a07e986c52a10770760c PDF Text Text Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Arely Ramos for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 15th, 2023, and this interview is taking place via Zoom. Hi Arely. Arely Ramos: Hi Seth. (both talking) Stanley: Thank you for being here. Hi. Ramos: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Stanley: I guess to start, we'll just start easy here and just say, can you tell us a bit about your background and how it led you to becoming a social worker? Ramos: Sure. I definitely think it really started when I was a student at San Marcos. I think when I first became employed at the Cross-Cultural Center it really wanted me--I think I just really, I loved it there, and I think it just really exposed me to a lot of different populations and just wanting to help people. And so my sister actually was also a big influence of me, of why I wanted to be a social worker. So after that, after graduating from San Marcos, I did become employed with Family Health Centers of San Diego. And I did a lot of outreach there. So I did a lot of outreach in downtown San Diego where I was able to help support communities and try to get them connected to Medi-Cal services and health services. And then I just felt like I wanted to do more. I was like, I need to get out there a little bit more and support, you know, the community and anyone that I can. So I went back to get my master's degree at San Diego State University where I was a Title IVE recipient (provides two years of support for full-time students who complete a Master’s in Social Work program). So I was able to get I guess like a scholarship to work for the county for child welfare services. So that kind of led me there. And then I was an intern there and I--I was an intern with Child Welfare Services, and then I was employed there for about a year. And then I, there was just a huge need working with our foster families. I loved it, but, you know, the caseload is, it's a tough job (both laugh), and so I kind of wanted to work with the kiddos more one-on-one. And so that kind of led me to where I'm at now, where I'm a district social worker for, actually my own childhood Chula Vista Elementary School district. Stanley: Oh. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 1 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: So I'm able to work with foster students and McKinney-Vento students, so families who identify as being homeless, where I provide case management and counseling services. So I love my job and I love social work. I think just how broad the field is. I just wanna help others. And so that's kind of how my journey led me to social work. Stanley: That's really awesome. That's really cool that you got to go back to your school there. Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: And help people there. (both talking) Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: That's, that's a dream of mine as well. You said that your sister influenced a lot of your, your going into social work. Could you tell me about that? Ramos: Yeah. I think, you know, we are both very similar in, you know, what we like and just, you know, social justice. And I think when I first became employed at the Cross-Cultural Center, my sister was like, “Oh my gosh, go for it.” Like, “That's such an awesome job.” And I think she really pushed me towards that area of social justice and, you know, standing up for others. So she was actually in Title 4-E, the same program that I was at, but at (Cal State) San Marcos. And so she's the one who told me about child welfare services and you know, I learned a lot from her. And so I think--we both were in the same field, and I think it's really awesome to have a family member who understands the field. And so she definitely inspired me to continue that route. And it was just great to have her because we both know, you know, the trauma that comes with it, the secondary trauma we're exposed to, and so it was a big influence. Stanley: Yeah. That's, that's really great. You, you work as a district social worker now you said you, you talked about it a little, but could you tell me what you do on a day-to-day basis? Ramos: Yeah, so I'm smiling 'cause I love my job (both laugh). But I think I just, I always knew I wanted to come back to this job because when I was an intern in grad school, my first-year placement was with the district, the Chula Vista Elementary School District. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 2 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: Uh-hmm. Ramos: And I didn't know that a program like this existed. So I think just coming back to it now, I'm, I'm so happy about it. And, you know, a little bit more of the day-to-day is it--it changes. It really just depends on what goes on, what families we work with. But a typical day, you know, I would have to do counseling sessions with some of my students. And again, I only work with foster youth students and McKinney Vento. So students who identify as being homeless, it can be like living in their car, living with another relative in motel, hotel, shelters, or, you know, on the streets. Stanley: Uh-hmm. Ramos: And so really I provide that support for the students with counseling, but I also do case management with the parents. And so that means referring them out to resources out in the community. Like if I can get them motel vouchers or, you know, tangibles, like sleeping bags or a little crock pot or something that they can cook in, gift cards for food, sweaters, underwear, hygiene products. So it really just depends day by day, because sometimes our database doesn't capture the families when they register at the school district. And so what happens is I really have to work close with the schools. So I'm assigned about six schools in our district. Stanley: Wow! Ramos: Yeah, it's a lot. So there's about fifty schools in our, in our district. It's probably one of the largest in California, but there's a, there's a team of now eight of us. And so we each have about six to seven schools to us assigned. And again, the same populations, but we really just try to support the families because we know if students are not doing well socially and emotionally, they're not gonna do well academically. So we're trying to remove those barriers and really trying to support them in that way, so that they can focus and so that we know we can communicate with the school staff and let them know what's going on. Even providing them bus passes or transportation. We really just want the best for our kiddos. So yeah, that’s a little bit about my day-to-day and I know I actually do have an intern from (Cal State) San Marcos, so I love that. It's kind of like a whole circle (laughs), so it's, it's really awesome. Stanley: Well, that's really great that you're helping out people. That's incredible. If you don't mind me asking, which, which school district is it? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 3 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: Chula Vista Elementary School District. Oh, yeah. So my hometown (both laugh). Yeah. Stanley: Going back to your time at CSUSM (California State University San Marcos), you, you had a variety of positions at the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center). Could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Ramos: Yeah, I remember oh boy, I remember it. Being located at a different section of CSUSM, so I think now where it's at the Student Union, it wasn't there when I had started. It was a little bit I don't even know the names of the buildings, but (laughs), it was a little bit higher up. I don't know what, what it was called. But- (both talking) Stanley: I know at one point it was at Craven and at what point it was, I think at University Hall, I think? Ramos: I think it might've been Craven. Oh, I'm so sorry. I forgot where honestl-- (both talking) Stanley: It's all good. Ramos: But I just remember there being like a big red couch (both laugh), and I remember, I remember we were in transition to getting it moved to the Student Union. And so I thought it was really cool that I got to experience it being there with a big famous red couch (laughs) because we were transitioning everything over to the other office. So I was there for a little bit, but I really was there when it got transitioned to the Student Union. And it was a lot more modernized. You know, our red couch wasn't there anymore, but it was still, it was still home to a lot of the students and to myself. So I thought that was a really cool experience. And I loved the Cross-Cultural Center. I was there every day. Even if I didn't work, if I didn't have a shift (laughs). Stanley: That is, that's so funny. I keep hearing about these red couches (both laugh). Ramos: Yeah. It's famous. I, we should have taken a picture and framed it in the Student Union because it was, it was a comfy couch. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 4 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: Alright, moving on. What motivated you to apply for positions at the Cross-Cultural Center, and what positions did you hold during your time there? Ramos: I think what motivated me, motivated me to apply was just that social justice aspect. Like, I wanted to be a part of something that I could potentially you know, really give to the university. Like as far as creating workshops or I guess just sharing my lens and trying to really create something that maybe was still being developed. Because we didn't really have a full on established, I mean, it was in the making. 'Cause I think (California State University) San Marcos was still developing as a whole as a university, so I just wanted to be a part of something that I can try to help develop. And so I know when I was there, one of the big roles that I had was the Civility Campaign. It was like my baby, because (laugh), you know, there, it wasn't really, there wasn't really a, a huge foundation I think when I had started. So it was really just trying to create something with Floyd (Lai), which was the director and still is the director. But he, he really allowed me to be creative and kind of, you know, go with what I kind of envisioned for the Civility Campaign. So a lot of that was having like monthly, cultural, I don't even know how to say it. Just a lot of different cultural activities or events related to that month. So like Women's Herstory Month, Black History Month, Latino Heritage Month. So it was just a lot of those tough conversations that we tend to shy away from as students where like, we don't really wanna be involved in something that can create that tension or that people don't wanna talk about. And so I try to make it fun, but also have having that difficult conversation to have. And I remember one of the, the biggest events that I did have was it was a Civility Campaign, but I don't remember the name. I'm so sorry, my memory is so bad (Stanley Laughs). But it was, we did an event where we created booths. So we had, at each booth we had an activity. And so we, you know, one of the, one of the things was having the couches there and like picking from the fishbowls and kind of creating questions, difficult questions about how people identify or, you know, what their thoughts were on specific situations. And so, it really opened that dialogue with students to just kind of get out there and really just talk to people you haven't met before, but also learn about their own story and their, their upbringing. Stanley: Well, I actually was gonna ask you about the Civility Campaign, so I'm glad you brought it up. Ramos: Yeah. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 5 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: Would you would you mind talking about it a little more, like describing what, what the, what it was all about and what your role was in it? Ramos: Sure. So I, again, I think, you know, because it was so, it was still being created. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: There wasn't really a huge foundation to it. So I think we were just trying to create it with Floyd (Lai), with Student Leadership. We were really just trying to create those workshops and dialogues again, like I mentioned where we could have students have a safe space to talk about things that, you know, might be--create tension in the world. And so I think at that time we were really just trying to create that safe space for students and to have that dialogue where there is support and they can have a center to go to. And so I think the Civility Campaign really brought a lot of students together with the events that we would have. There was so many volunteers, and I thought it was so awesome because it was a brand new--and we had these bright green shirts. I think now the color is baby blue, so it's a little more neutral (both laugh). But I remember just like, if you saw the bright green, you're like, okay, that's Civility. That's a Civility Campaign. Or, you know, that might be an event through the Civility Campaign. So it, I think it was just a really cool opportunity to bring out different discussions revolving around social justice and what was going on at the time with, you know, everything so (laughs), I think it just really gave us an opportunity to create something new. And I think now they have workshops at the Cross-Cultural Center where the students can come in and there's different presenters, kind of like the little TED Talks. And so I thought that was really cool to see it grow. Stanley: Uh-hmm. That's, that's great. And I, I like that you were able to be a part of that. Ramos: Yeah, it was, it was definitely fun (both laugh). Stanley: Could you, could you tell me about your different positions at the Cross-Cultural Center and how your responsibilities may have changed depending on the roles? Ramos: Yeah. I think, oh, I don't even remember my first one, but I just remember being very involved with the Civility Campaign and kind of creating those events every month. But I also, you know, just the typical day at the Cross-Cultural Center like the, when I wasn't trying to plan events--I think at the Cross- Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 6 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Cultural Center, it was really just a space for me to welcome in new students. So, you know, being at the front desk, welcoming new students, talking to them about what the center was and you know, that this was a safe space for them to be at. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And so I think, you know, there was a lot of, I think at the time we were trying to get a lot of different kind of populations coming into the center because a lot of the students felt like, “Oh, you know, it's only this group that is allowed in here.” And we were like, “No, it's for everyone.” Like, “I know there's only one population that you may see daily here, but everybody's welcomed and just really trying to create friendships with strangers or, you know, students we haven't met.” And I think that was one of the important roles that we had being like the (Ramos makes air quotations) receptionist, I guess you can say at the Cross-Cultural Center. I remember it being very known for like, “Oh, I heard this center, you can print for free here for like essays.” And I was like, “Oh, that's not what, it's just about” (both laugh), you know? So I think just really trying to have those conversations with students and letting them know, it's more than just a place where you can print. And so we really, I think my role was really just to create that safe space for students and to really welcome them there at the center. And introducing them to other students. I know sometimes we would have students come in a lot, but to study or even just hang out on the couches were, which weren't as comfy as the red couches, but (Stanley laughs) they would hang out in there and we would really try our best to feel everybody, make everyone feel welcomed, whoever came in. Stanley: That's, yeah. That's good. What was I gonna say? Oh, yeah. You mentioned that people thought that it was for one group of people. Who were the people coming in most commonly to the CrossCultural Center during your time there? Ramos: Yeah, I think it was--I would wanna say there was a lot of you know, people who identify as being a part of the Asian community at the time. And so I think we--different groups from like Greek Life who were a part of different, sororities or fraternities would come in. And we really wanted to make sure people didn't think, those are the only people who are welcomed here. And I think we were really trying to take that, like, stigma away from our students. And so I think we, I think we did a great job. But, you know, we wanted--we didn't want people to be like, “Okay, you guys can't hang out here anymore.” Like, we're trying to get other people in here. No. It wasn't like that at all. I think we really just try to welcome anyone there. And I think one of my things that I really enjoyed as part of the Civility Campaign was the volunteers that we would have, I would try to, bring them in (both laugh) and kind of just hang out there so that people can see that there's a lot more than what is being seen and represented at the moment. And so I think, I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 7 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 think that was so important, especially because at that time there was also the Latino Center (Latin@/x Center) and the LGBTQ Center (Pride Center) that was down the hall. And so we didn't want it to make it seem like, okay, only if you identify as those populations or ethnicities, like those are the only people allowed there. I think it was much more than that. And we were really trying to get that point across, especially the Cross-Cultural Center. You know, we really wanted to expose any type of student in there. They didn't have to identify a certain way or anything at all. So we really just wanted to open that space for anyone who needed the support or the safe space. Stanley: Yeah. Just all about inclusivity, right? Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: Let's see here. What was a, what was a challenging aspect of your work at the CCC and how did you navigate it? Ramos: I don't know if I ever really feel challenged except for what I just explained right now (both talking). Stanley: Oh that's good. Ramos: Just to make it more inclusive, but I think I had a lot of support from Floyd and just the staff that were there. I don't think I ever really felt negatively challenged. I would say, it's more in a positive way where it helped me develop, like as a person and my own professional development, because we were tasked to sometimes run our team meetings. And sometimes that would make me feel uncomfortable but I'm so grateful for it now (both laugh) because I think that that helped me a lot and built that confidence. And so I don't think I've ever felt negatively challenged. I think it was more of that positive outlook. Because again, like I said, a lot of the students there felt the Cross-Cultural Center was only for a specific type of group where we didn't want that. So I think for me, that might've felt in that challenge in that sense, where I felt like, oh, I have this responsibility. I want people to go in there and feel inclusive. I don't want anybody to feel left out or out, or I want them to use the center. You know, just for those open discussions and dialogues and yeah. Stanley: Yeah. So just getting the message out there (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 8 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: I know during your time at the CCC, there was the Peer Mentoring Program going on-- Ramos: Oh yes! Stanley: Could you tell me about that? Ramos: I love the Peer Mentoring Program! Yes. Oh, I love the Peer Mentoring Program. I think it was so important and I think--I think it was just a great opportunity to mentor those incoming students. I know I was a peer mentor, I had amazing mentees and I loved them so much and I still connect with them. I try to--I haven't in a while, but I still see them, like on social media. I think that's the new norm, right? (laughs) Just seeing them on social media. But no, I think the Peer Mentoring Program was so great, and I think it was just you know, being paired up, paired up with a mentee we were able to kind of help them and guide them throughout their time at San Marcos. So it was a lot of first-year students that we mentored and really just trying to get them involved. I know for all of my mentees, I would ask them like, can you help volunteer with the Civility Campaign? And (Stanley laughs) they all would. So like (laughs), you know, I thought that was such a great opportunity for them because I do feel they were able to meet other students. But even with the Peer Mentoring Program itself, it was just a big family. And I think we all grew so comfortable with each other and just trying to guide them with like, not only their academics, but I think just having those relationships with other people at the school, because a lot of them were either commuting or living away from home. And so San Marcos was our second home. That's where we would spend all of our day at (laughs). And so I think just creating that safety for them and creating the, you know, getting them to know, getting them to feel comfortable enough to get involved at school. 'Cause It can feel lonely, especially if it's your first time and you don't know what you're doing at a university. I know that's how I felt. I was like, “Oh my gosh, what am I doing here?” Like, “I don't even know what I wanna do with my life.” And so, I think just being really open with our mentees and allowing them to feel vulnerable was so important because they are--it's so important just to kind of keep students hopeful and let them know that they do belong here. Because a lot of the times it can feel like they don't. And I think that was so important a part of the program is just having them feel comfortable and also teaching them study tricks or having them feel--like teaching them time management or how they can schedule their day. And so it could be simple things like that, but I think it Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 9 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 was much more than that. I think just having that consistent person in their life is so important because it allows them to feel like they belong. Stanley: You mentioned directing your mentees towards the Civility Campaign. Ramos: Yeah (laughs). Stanley: Were, were there, were there any ways, other ways the mentor program helped? Im--impacted your experiences at the Cross-Cultural Center? Ramos: I'm sorry, can you repeat that one more time? Stanley: Were there any other ways that your experiences with the peer mentoring program impacted your experiences with the CCC? Ramos: I mean, they (peer mentors) would hang out at the center. I know that (laughs), I know they would use that space to come in and just hang out. And I think they really created a lot. They also brought in--I think the more comfortable they felt and were engaged and met other students, they would also bring them into the center. So I think that was impactful because they brought in different groups that weren't necessarily always at the center. And so I thought that was really cool to see for them, because they, at first they were really shy and then they started to really blossom (both laugh) and just bring in other students. So, and it was different students who were involved with other, with different organizations on campus. So I thought it was really nice to see that. And kind of make, it also helped the center grow because we were bringing in like our mentees and people from that program to be there at the center and to attend our events. And so I thought that was really important and it really helped the Cross-Cultural Center grow. In that aspect. Stanley: Yeah. Two, two programs working together. That's nice. Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 10 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: My timeline’s, I don't, I'm not sure if the timeline’s--but was Jenny Ruiz the, the person running it at the time? Ramos: The Civility Campaign? Stanley: No. The Peer Mentoring Program? Ramos: I don't think so. I think it was Floyd. Stanley: Oh, okay. Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: Let's see here. What is, what's your favorite memory from the CCC? Ramos: Oh, I don't even know. I can't have a favorite memory. I think all of them were, I think all of it. I don't have a specific favorite. I think it's just a, I just--my memory as a whole is the Cross-Cultural Center because it, you know, the Peer Mentoring came out of that, the Civility Campaign came out of that. And so I think it was just all my favorite. Like, I just can't stop smiling because I just, I'm thinking about my time there and I had the best time there. It was my favorite. It was definitely my second home. 'Cause I am, I'm from Chula Vista, which is probably like forty-five minutes, an hour, not even far. So I'm just being a baby (Stanley laughs). But I think it was just really, it was my home. I really loved the CrossCultural Center. I still do, but (both laugh) at the time it was, it was so fun. I think I--it was just a really great experience. And when I think about my time at CSUSM, that's what I think about is just my time at the Cross-Cultural Center and the programs that came out of it. Stanley: Lemme ask, did your experiences working at the CCC, did they help you professionally? Or in what ways would they have helped you professionally? Ramos: Yes, definitely. I think I mentioned a little earlier where I remember Floyd would make us run meetings sometimes during our team meetings. And I remember feeling so anxious and being like, “Oh, I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 11 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 don't wanna run a meeting.” But I think it definitely helped me professionally because I-- we're not—at least growing up, you know, I come from a low income community and we're not exposed to that. We're, we don't have those expectations. And so I think the Cross-Cultural Center really helped me kind of get my feet wet (Both laugh). And so, I think even just as simple as running meetings, people are like, “Oh, that's not even that bad.” Like, you know, creating an agenda or running a 30-minute, hour meeting. But to me it was like, “Oh my gosh, I can't do this.” Or you know, I, I had so much anxiety. But I think the more he rotated us to lead those meetings it really exposed us to that kind of professional development. And so I think that really helped me a lot. And I think even just the Civility Campaign, like being in charge of making those events, that was huge for me because I've never done anything like that. It was really, it was challenging, but in a good way. Because it really helped me grow. And I think, you know, even just the computer tech stuff or creating programs, collaborating with other staff members who were part of the student leadership program, I had never done really those type of collaborations. So it really, I think that's where he (Floyd Lai) really planted a seed for me because I think a lot of what I do now helped me, or I guess a lot of what I did then helped me now because now I'm like collaborating with teachers and attorneys and different social workers. And so that collaboration piece was so helpful for me even to today, because I think that was really my steppingstone. And when you do go out into your career, you're exposed to all of that. And I think he (Lai) really helped me grow in that way. Which I'm forever grateful for (laughs). Yeah. Stanley: In a, in a sort of different way. How did the CCC help you academically, in your academic career? Ramos: I definitely think--I think just, you know, Floyd's support as well. I think he really accepted me for like, everything that I was (both laugh) and so--I think just he really, he really took the time to listen to us. And if, if we weren't doing well academically, like I did feel comfortable letting him know, you know, it wasn't the best time for me. I know I had a hard time academically. And I know I had to take a step back away from working at the center because the center, it was my whole life. And so like the Civility (Campaign) kind of took over and I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I'm here for, to get a degree. Not to, you know--that was my priority, but I think I forgot that at one point while working at the center. And so I really had to take a step back. And I remember not being employed. I think I took a break, and then I returned after-- Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: --to work back at the Cross-Cultural Center. But Floyd was always so supportive during that time. And I think even the friendships that I had there. That I created when I was at the center helped me academically in so many ways because you know, I didn't, I--a lot of us would never think, especially for Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 12 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 my community, we're not really super encouraged to go to higher education. And my family is so supportive, so of course they were. But I think the expectations of us in communities like mine, we’re not expected to go and pursue higher education. And so that transition was so hard for me. And I did struggle academically. I'm horrible at tests, even to this day. I'm not a good test taker (both laugh). I like writing. But no, it was a, it was a struggle. But I think just having those consistent people in my life like Floyd and the friendships that I had at the Cross-Cultural Center really helped me academically. Stanley: You mentioned, well, okay, you just said you were formed a lot of relationships through the CCC. Are there any, any friendships or, or yeah. Any friendships that you still keep in contact with today? Ramos: I do. Yes. I haven't in a while. Like I mentioned my mentees, I, I need to reach out to them. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: But I still have connections with them through social media, but it's just comments here and there. But I, they're still so important in my life. And even my roommates--I lived at oh my gosh, is it the UVA (University Village Apartments), I don't know if they still call it that, but-- Stanley: Yeah. Ramos: They’re the dorms room. I met my roommates there and I also pulled them into the Civility Campaign. So (both laugh), I just--anybody I knew, I was like, “Hey, do you wanna volunteer?” So, my roommates were also part of that. But yes, I definitely still keep in contact with my roommates. I actually just saw one of them a couple weeks ago. So it's awesome because you, not just the peers, but I think Floyd, he's--even if I don't talk to him every month or year, I know he is always there and he always writes my letter of recommendation (both laugh). So, so that's always a great thing. We've, he's kind of like followed my journey, which is really cool to look back on. And, you know, he's always been there for those life-changing career moves or, you know, just anything, I know I can always have him to lean on. And we actually share the same birthday, so we always, “Happy birthday!” on our birthdays, so yes, definitely still have those relationships. Stanley: Well, that's really nice. I like that you keep in touch with people even after all this time (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 13 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: Yeah. Yeah. Stanley: The CCC and looks like the, it sounds like the Civility Campaign was a big part of your time at the CCC. How did these, how did the CCC and the Civility Campaign help you understand, well shape your understanding of social justice and advocacy? Ramos: I think in a lot of ways. It really, even for myself, I know I kept saying, it helped create that dialogue where like a lot of students may have felt like it was, there was a lot of tension. I think it really helped me be okay with having those discussions because that's how we grow and how we support the movement of social justice. And so I think for me at the time--oh, I'm so sorry. I keep blanking out on the names, but I know there, I think it was a social justice retreat that the Cross-Cultural Center had or hosted. And I think that one really moved me deeply because it was the first time I really allowed myself to be vulnerable and like even talk about, my own trauma. And so I think I think it really just helped me wanna advocate more for others because I know like what I've experienced you know, there's others who have stories and who are going through a hard time. And so I think just really trying to gain that lens to try to support others. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And I feel like it's helped me to this day because I'm exposed to that every day where, you know, the institutions and stuff are not always on our side. And so (both laugh) and you know, there's just this whole systematic injustice for our families and I see it every day. And so I think it really helped me to, it led me to where I am today which is what I love, what I'm doing right now (both laugh). But I, it's definitely helped me and, and it really guided me towards this path. Stanley: Would you say that the CCC’s approach to diversity inclusion has changed over time? Or has it, or has it more remained the same over time? What would you say? Ramos: I think it has changed, but for the better. I think having those--I know I follow them on social media (laughs), so I see--I keep referencing social media 'cause it's such a big part of our lives now, but I definitely feel like the workshops that I see, and I can't even think of one off the top of my head, but I know they host those, at the Cross-Cultural Center. And I think that's so we--I don't think it was as structured as it is now. And I think that's so cool to see it grow, because I think during my time at least, Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 14 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 we were still in the developing stages of like, “Okay, what do we want the Cross-Cultural Center to be?” And so I think now it's like they have it all laid out. And, I think we were just at that when I was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center, that was still being developed. Like, “What is the program gonna look like? What are we gonna offer students and staff?” And so I think now to look back and kind of scroll past and I'm like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, you know, “They have these programs” like, “Oh, they have shirts.” And I was like, I remember laughing and being like, “Oh my God.” I remember always telling Floyd, “I want uniform shirts at the Cross-Cultural Center” (both laugh) to support the Cross-Cultural Center. And I see that the staff have that now. And I'm like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, just seeing how much it's developed over the years and how much how many, how many students are getting exposed to that. I think is so cool to see. And just to watch the center grow is awesome. Stanley: And I think a good follow up to this would be how do you envision the Cross-Cultural Center continuing to evolve and grow in the future? What role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity specific spaces? Ramos: Ooh. Okay. Can you repeat the, can I take one question at a time? Can you repeat the first one? Stanley: That's fine. Yeah. Yeah (both laugh). How do you envision the CCC continuing to evolve and grow in the future? Ramos: Oh, I think I would love for it to partner up with community agencies or organizations. I think that'd be so cool to see because there is--you know, I know it's very student focused but I think if we can get the students out into the community, and I know they do like the Ceasar Chavez Day there at the center where they go, they have students come out and help out too. But I think if we can connect the center to outside agencies and to support kind of bringing it back to the students' youth. 'Cause I think that's where a lot of the times, you know--in the work that I am in now, trauma really impacts where people are led to. And I think if we can get, if we can do, early prevention work, I think that would be awesome. And what I mean by that is, I think having students be out in the community or helping organizations, it could really help them a lot. Because I think they get to see that change and it's like, “Wow, what I'm doing can really impact youth or, you know, people who may have experienced the same stuff that I have.” But even like fundraising or something for students, and my mind keeps going to foster youth and homelessness because that's where I'm working at right now. The pop--but I think there's a broader population that the students can work with or the center can work with. But I just feel like everybody needs support. And I think--yeah I don't, I really don't know how to wrap this around, but I just, I don't even know what I'm saying, but I think, I don't even know (Stanley laughs). I just lost myself in what I was saying. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 15 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: It's all good. Ramos: I just think the, there's so much potential for the Cross-Cultural Center and it has grown already so much. So I think the work that they're doing, if they can invite even the outside, like the public or I don't know anything. 'Cause they, they offer so many cool things and there's so many speakers that come up and when you go to those events and attend them yourself, you're just, you feel so empowered and you're like, “Okay, what's next? What do I do?” And so I feel like, I think that's the aspect that I'm trying to connect with the communities. If we can, because a lot of the times--when I know the Social Justice summit that I went to, I remember feeling so empowered and being like, “What do I do? What can I do? Who can I help?” Like where can I use, where can somebody use me in a good way for the community? And so you're left with like, “Okay, what's next?” And so I think that next step would be like, okay, let's let's get them out there. Let's help them support the community or some agency in some way. I think would be really cool to see, because you do have that adrenaline when you've learned that, you know new terms or social justice stuff, you kind of get excited, but you're like, what do I do with all this energy (both laugh)? So, that would be cool to see. I hope that made sense. I'm just rambling (laughs). Stanley: It did, it did. I really love your enthusiasm about, about the Cross-Cultural Center and that was definitely one of the more unique answers I've gotten to that question. So thank you much. Ramos: Okay (both laugh). Oh my God, that didn't make sense. I'm trying to tie it back together. Stanley: And the, the follow up to that question is what, what role do you see the CCC playing as it coexists with the identity specific spaces? Ramos: Oh do you mean spaces at the, at the ce--like at the Student Union? Stanley: Yeah. Spaces such as the Black Student Center, the Latin@/x Center, LGBTQ+ Center. Yes. Ramos: I think, you know, it all comes together. And I think it's--I don't want, I think that's why, you know, earlier when I talked about one of the challenges was people only saw like a certain population coming in. I don't like that at all because I feel we all have experienced some type of challenge with the way we identify with ourselves. And I think having those centers is so important because it creates those Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 16 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 safe places for students. But I think they all mesh--they can mesh in some way to like some degree. And I think because, you know, I think--I think it really, I would love to see them all work together. And I think they have in the past. I know we have when I was there. But I don't want people to see it as, you know, like I mentioned earlier, I could only go to the Black student Union if I identify as African American. I think, you know, it is a space for individuals to feel safe at. But I think I would want everyone to feel welcome and inclus--and like included. And I think coexisting with the other spaces is--I mean, it's been happening, it's been going well I think (both laugh). But I think just working more together or, you know, I don't know how it is now. I don't know how the different centers, how they're working together, but I think they can create something so beautiful and create events together where they coexist with each other. And I think that's, yeah, I think I can see that happening. Stanley: So the CCC sort of provides a, a beacon of inclusivity with all these other just sort of like categories (both talking). Ramos: Yeah. Stanley Uh-hmm. Ramos: Yeah. They kind of like intersect in some way, but it is important to identify. It is important to have those centers specific because, I think it allows that safe space for the students, but I think if, I mean, they intersect in some way. Stanley: And this is sort of a, a question I've been asking. Would you, would you be averse to adding maybe an Asian student center or (Ramos laughs) or any other sort of student centers? Ramos: I mean, sure. Yeah. Why not give everyone a center? Yeah. I think it's, I think it's so important because I think there has been a lot of controversy that where people are like, I don't think, I don't agree with, you know, the Latin(@/x) Center having a Latin(@/x) Center or Black Student Center or LGBTQ. But I think it's important to lay out, the different types of I don't even know the word. I think it's just important to, to realize, we have those centers for a reason. Stanley: Um-hmm. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 17 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: And it's because of the experiences that those populations have experienced. Not saying like nobody else has. But I think you know, especially just going back to going back to everything that those certain populations have experienced, they do, it is important to have those spaces because of what was experienced with those populations. And I think yeah, I think--I don't think we should take that away (laughs). And I think that there was a lot of controversy of that at first where it's like, “Oh, well you guys are secluding,” you know, as much as you wanna be inclusive. Like, you're also separating that. But it's like, no, that's not the point. You know, we need to have those, we have those spaces for a reason. So-- Stanley: Yeah. Like you mentioned before, just it's a safe space for-- Ramos: Yeah. It's a safe space-- (both talking) Stanley: Or you can go to, you know, you to, to feel, you know, 'cause lot of the times you look around, there's not many people that look like you around campus. Ramos: Yeah. Uh-hmm. I think that's so important. Stanley: All right. Well we're wrapping up here. I'll ask one final question and that would be, what advice would you give to current or future students who are interested in getting involved with the CCC? Ramos: Oh. Just go there. Go, go show up. No, I love the Cross-Cultural Center. And I think the advice that I would give is just don't--be open-minded and just really--yeah, I'm already starting off with horrible advice. I think I would just say, I think I would just say to, for them to be open-minded and know that they belong and know that they have that safe space. Because they deserve to be there as much as anybody else does. And they will find a home there. So I think that's (the) advice: is just be open-minded and know that they belong. That the space is for everyone. And it'll open so many doors for them. So I think that's something that I would say, and I would hope they literally go (laughs) and show up to the center. Yeah, I think just being open-minded and knowing that they belong there as much as anybody else does. Stanley: Well, thank you for that. And thank you for coming Arely. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 18 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I hope I did okay. I feel like redoing the whole interview (both laugh). Oh my God (both talking). I should-- Stanley: I'm gonna stop the recording here. Ramos: Okay. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 19 2023-11-22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ramos, Arely. Interview transcript April 15, 2023. Description An account of the resource Arely Ramos is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Human Development, Health Services. Ramos worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and was also involved in the Peer Mentoring Program and Civility Campaign on campus. In this interview, Ramos discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center became her second home and how she loved spending most her time at the center. Ramos explains how it pushed her out of her comfort zone and provided her with a safe space to practice presenting and managing a team. The time spent at the center provided her with tools and connections she would use until today. Ramos also discusses her career in social work at the Chula Vista Elementary School District. This oral history was created in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Arely Ramos Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Geneva Martinot Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Civility Campaign California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Child care services Chula Vista Elementary School District (Chula Vista, Calif.) Education, Higher Human rights Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chula Vista (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Arely Ramos License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-15_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d3c147170d930bc7f12d9f580bba4753.pdf ad9279d0bc173837718e150a224623cd PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS MJ Teater: All right. It is recording now. All right. So today is Thursday, April 6th, 2022 at 1:07 PM. I am MJ Teater, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing narrator Theresa Rios for the University Library Special Collections Oral History Project. Theresa, thank you for being here with me today. Theresa Rios: You're very welcome. Teater: <laughs> All right. Just to get started, can you introduce yourself, like, say your name and when you were, or maybe not when you were born, but where you were born? Rios: Mm-hmm. My name is Theresa Rios. I was born in Clifton, Arizona. Teater: I'm going to ask you a few questions about your childhood and maybe your upbringing. So, how long have you lived in San Diego if you were born in Arizona? Rios: I came to Escondido in 1970. I brought my four children and myself and we moved here and my exhusband and I have been here for fifty years. I lived in La Jolla for five years. I love Escondido. I came back to Escondido in I believe, [19]78. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And I have been here ever since. Teater: Wow. I love that. That's so cool. So at what point did you become a librarian? Or what was your journey to become a librarian? Rios: My journey was-- I have this write up from this Hispanic newspaper and it tells me here when I started the library was in... back in, oh my goodness. I’m little nervous, but not really. Anyway, I came, I started working, I came back to Escondido. I started going to Palomar College and from there I met my husband, Dan Rios. After that, I left Palomar College and I went to the employment office and they sent me to the [Escondido Public] library and I got this job at the library and I thought, my goodness, I love this job. And so I started by being a library assistant. And from there, they started giving me some privileges about -being Hispanic, there was no Hispanic library books for either the children and even the adults. So I Transcribed by MJ Teater 1 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS started-- Oh my goodness. I started, well translating for the library, whatever they needed. Anytime they needed a Hispanic to translate something, they would call me. I started teaching some of the librarians, what to, how to discuss things in Spanish or to answer in Spanish when someone came to the library and had no Spanish experience or could not. But there was no one that would write anything. I transferred papers, whatever they needed. Then I started seeing that the children, I started saying stories to the children and I noticed where a lot of the Hispanic children did not understand what we were saying [in English], what I was saying to them. And, so then I told my supervisor, I think we should start a Hispanic program – a storytelling time. And so he said, yes, whatever, it would be wonderful. Go ahead. Whatever you think. And at that time, I had a lot of the mothers that came with their children sometimes, and they also didn't know English. And so I decided to start Las Embajadores de Escondido. And they, they just thought again, Liz Painter was one of them. She helped, she helped a lot, because she was very friendly with all the people and she also wanted us to try something different. So again, I said, yes, let's do this. Let's tell the stories to the children in Spanish. And so there's a nice picture. The newspaper came over -- The [Escondido] Times Advocate -- and I have this, I'm sorry. Teater: It's okay. Do you want me to pause the recording? Rios: Yes. One moment. Okay. There's a very nice picture of me with this book that I would tell this story, Las Zapatitos Colorados, “The Red Shoes” and with this story, I would tell all the children to be very careful about who they went with, how not to go with just anyone and just sort of try to... tell them to be cautious, but at the same time, there was a lot to learn. We had a lot to learn. But you you'd have to see this, this article. And do you read Spanish? Teater: I know enough to muddle through it, you know <laugh> Rios: Oh good, good. Because this whole page is in Spanish. It's from the Hispanico, Hispanic Times. And it was way back in 2000. June 22nd, 2000. And it says Theresa Rios, nueva de delegate al club del parlementaria. Parliamentary. Teater: Oh cool. Rios: And before that well I was at Palomar College. I was with Concerned Citizens of Escondido at A Day With Your Neighbor Luncheon on May 7th, 1982: Theresa Rios, Pichacon Lupita, and George Lopez. And there's my boss over here. He's not mentioned, Jon Ericson. Anyway, there's a whole page of me with a picture of the, telling the story to the children. And I would like for you to see that, cause it just explains a lot. I had no idea I had done so much. <laughter>, it's bringing back all these memories and I loved it. I mean the, the library to me was like home. I mean wonderful. Teater: That's fantastic. Rios: Transcribed by MJ Teater 2 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS Anyway, again, like I say, anything you asked me to do, whether it was a police department or it was the library or my bosses, the children were very important to get them started learning. I still have many friends here in Escondido that when I see, we talk about all the things that we did. And the library I've been going there and Roberta, she was my dear friend there. Just a lot of the gals that were, that are still there. Some of them the other day I went to the library and there was Francine, this one, she said “Theresa! How are you? I haven't seen you in,” you know, things like that. And I just love the library. I love going back. I'm just gonna kinda stay in touch, you know? Teater: Yeah. That's, that's great. That's so great. Rios: Back to, I mean, back to the -- what other question, I mean, I think I mentioned... Teater: That was a good starting point. So, can you tell me more about the Embajadores program? Rios: Yes, the Embajadores we, like I said, the children's mothers, some of them, some were elderly ladies that came to the library that were my friends that I would tell them, come join us. I mean, come join the Embajadores. We want every child in Escondido to have a library card. Teater: Oh. Rios: I want every child to know, to learn how to read at a very young age. And so they came, they came from all over and we would have -- one time we had this salsa contest, not a contest, but everybody brought different kinds of salsa and my salsa won a blue ribbon. <laughs> Teater: Ooh. Rios: It was technically a blue ribbon. It was just a wonderful time. And the people came, we would have different places that would sponsor us. One of them was El Tapatilla in Escondido would send food. Again, a lot of stuff that's in this article brings back a lot of memories. But the Embajadores came and they gave tours. I taught them to give tours through the library. I taught 'em to sit and talk with people that need just answers in Spanish or just to get together with other ladies that, that spoke Spanish only. And then bring them in as far as, trying to -- if they wanted an education, if they wanted to join literacy [program], things like that. I mean, literacy was just starting; the literacy program. And, and we had, you know, different people teaching other people Spanish or English or... Teater: And about when were these programs happening? Rios: That was back in that era, which is, you know... [unclear] There's a lot of paperwork that have here that I I've been going through, but you know, it's been so long. It's been-Teater: Transcribed by MJ Teater 3 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS Yeah. Yeah. Well that's okay. We can keep going. So, can you explain how, like early reading programs are impactful for a child's life? Like why that was so important to you? Rios: Because when I went to-- the reason that I believe this is so important is because I also, when I went to started kindergarten, I did not know a word of English. Very little, very, very little. My parents did not, we did not speak English at home. My father knew a little more than my mother, my mother didn't. I mean, because of her hardships, her mother died when she was, I believe, in third grade, I'm not sure, but the schools were what, you know, and she lived in a ranch and she was left with four or five or six little ones that she helped grow up. And a baby that my, her, my grandmother, her mother died. So my mother always thought education was very important. You need it. She would get very upset. Um, so I knew that... And then I have -- Me marrying so young and having four children. I decided, nuh-uh, if I would've had this education before, I would have, you know, not being so afraid of trying of being around people that could teach me that could read, could that would teach me. I mean, there was no nothing in Clifton Arizona where I was born. There was, there was some things, but not enough to inspire me at a young age. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And so I believe that if the children could get it right into them and tell me their stories, and then I would try to direct them when I would ask questions. Well, what do you do? How do you read at home? Do you do this? No... Do you like coming to the library? Oh yes. We like it. Do you like to hear stories? Oh, yes. And then I would ask some of the children little questions. I don't know if I should say this, but What do you do? Oh, we drink tequila. Teater: <laugh> oh, no, Rios: We would laugh over that That. I said, “Oh, no, we gotta get this--” <laugh>. I mean, I don't mean to it it's part of growing up it's in their environment, their family so again, I, I would see parents and I would say, well, you know, good, this is not so good. But, oh my God. And it just, I mean, you'd have to talk to my supervisor, which was Joanne, oh, my away. Well, and Laura Mitchell was also one of my bosses. And like I said, city manager at the time, I can't, it's gone right now, but I'll have to get those names if you need 'em. But they would, give me card blank for whatever I wanted to do. I was so fortunate and so lucky and, a lot of like Graham Humphrey, he was the head of the library at the time. And he knew my husband very well. Dan Teater: Mm-hmm <affirmative>, Rios: Transcribed by MJ Teater 4 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS And again, all I had to do was, well, Mr. Humphrey told me I want more Hispanic children here. I want, I don't-- at the time, I don't know whether he meant to say anything like this, but he said, I don't wanna see all this white Anglo-Saxons <affirmative> and I thought, oh my God. I mean because I believe that they're the white or the black or the Hispanic. We, they all need to learn everybody. <affirmative> Everybody needs to get some sense when they're young of what's going on and reading stories. I had no prejudice whatsoever, but I also understood the situation: who had the opportunities at home who didn't. And the ones that didn't of course would take priority of my attention, because I would have to explain myself more to them or listen to them a little more, so that they give me ideas of what, how I could help and how everybody in the library could help. Not just me. I didn't want, whenever somebody treated any of 'em with disrespect, I would just jump up and say, no, it's not the way we treat people. I mean, I had to fight everybody, not fight, but kind of. Teater: But yeah, I know what you mean. Rios: And I'm still doing it. I still do it. Even in my church at resurrection and everybody is welcome. Everybody is a child of Jesus. Everybody deserves a right to be heard. Of course, sometimes people are not in the mood to be heard or this and that. But with me, they'll come and tell me anything. and I feel how can I say I, a lot of humility that they can do that with me. But I feel if they're wrong, I'll tell them if they're hurting, I'll listen. And if they just wanna talk, that's good too. So we get along and that's how I get along at the library, and all my life. Teater: That’s Fantastic Rios: I guess this is how I tried to be. And what else can I tell you? Teater: <laugh> all right. Let me, let me look through my questions because you're, you're answering so many of them. So what can library librarians who only speak English do to support the Spanish speakers of, you know, Escondido and San Diego? Rios: What could they do? Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: Is that the question? Teater: Transcribed by MJ Teater 5 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS Yes. Rios: They could take classes in Spanish mm-hmm <affirmative> They could have someone there to help interpret. They just like, you know, now a lot of people are coming like from other countries and we have to continue to learn. <affirmative> Although I'm fluent Spanish and English, I love French, but you know, I'm not that good at it. And I I'm very close to my Filipino friends. I have a daughter-in-law that's married to my son and a wonderful family. And here in Escondido, I very belong to my church at resurrection eighties and the man, all we are very good friends on the counter. I am a greeter at my church on Sundays. <affirmative> I, we all work together. So Like I say, whoever walks into that door always gets a good morning from me when I am greeting. And a lot of them too. And I say, we need to be very kind, but at the same time we need to. But anybody just run out, you know, they're having a problem. One, we have to kinda-Teater: What other, are there any other initiatives that you worked on while you were in the library? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your supervisors. Rios: Well I was on the desk. I started on the desk. Like I said, greeting people and what do they need? Or they would tell me what I need to find out this, I need to go to this desk or I need to go here. I need to, I need to know about that. So I would direct them to wherever. That was part of our job, to direct people, to wherever they needed to go and help them. If they couldn't find something, if they had the librarian on the desk was busy we could try and just keep them moving. But at the same time, I had meetings with several people. I mean they have this special room. Can't think of it right now. I mean, it's just upstairs, but I would do whatever it took to for the children to have special things going on. I mean, yeah, I have to go back. But if you see this picture of me taken when I would read stories, oh, and I got, I got this job at the library, like I said, way back then, but my husband and I were planning a trip to Mexico City, Mexico, a three week trip through me to Mexico. And I told my boss, I told Joanne Greenberg. I said, I think this was in August that I got hired around that time. And in December, we were planning to go to Mexico for three weeks, four weeks. And I said, I would have to work here, but I have to ask, my husband and I are going to go to Mexico, and I want to go very badly. I've never been to Mexico City. And, if you will, let me go. And, and let me come back to this job. I promise to work as hard as I can. And, you know, they let me do this after just being hired a couple of months. And I was all very grateful for that. We had a lovely time in Mexico. We had children running after our van and I mean things I saw and and my husband being a photographer, took pictures of the kids and the dresses, the colors. It was amazing. So I came back to the library and <affirmative>, I had all those stories in me from, for the children and for, you know, even adults. Teater: Mm-hmm <affirmative> sounds like, that sounds awesome. Rios: Seeing the no education, you know, a lot of we were out in the mountains where there were, and I said, and here they get a chance to come to America. And here we have all these mentees for them. So again, Mr. Humphrey had told me just whatever you need to do. And Joanne Greenberg the same. And then Transcribed by MJ Teater 6 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS Laura Mitchell, she's whatever I wanted to do till my husband got sick. And then I said, I can't anymore, I have to-- <affirmative> He had Gotten this infection that he hardly couldn't walk for about a year. Teater: Oh no. Rios: But I took care of him. And, and he, we did wonderful, I mean, far as, and he came out of it and now he's on dialysis. He has been for five years. And again, it's a challenge just every day is a something new, but, but I live a quiet life. And if I can be, I tell people at my church, I will be here, but if I can't-- <affirmative> And, and that's the way I said, if you want me that way fine. If not, well, I have to something else, because as far as my church and my masses, I can always see them at home. I can, you know, do other things, especially now that everything is on TV. So, yeah. But at the same time, I'm very close to my priests that we built this new church here in Escondido, Resurrection, and I have had a lot of opportunities to help there. And again, I meet a lot of my people from the library and invite 'em there and come and see and bring your children. And again, I'm still involved. Teater: So you're still involved with children's programs then? Rios: Not as much as I would like to be, because, like I said, I can't commit myself too much because of my husband. Teater: Yeah. Rios: I have things that I need to do, but any chance I have, and they're having something really special, I try to attend. Teater: That's Nice. Rios: Or I just, I have a kind connection with the children at the church. And, and I just love it; just even when they just say good morning, back to me, or hello or goodbye. And excited and on their way. And I'm on my way too. Teater: Sounds awesome. What has your-- what has connecting to children, or what has connecting to children meant to you? Like over the years as a librarian? Rios: Transcribed by MJ Teater 7 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS What has connected mean to children? Teater: No. What has your connection with children meant to you as a librarian over the years? Rios: The in, oh, I just love to hear a child read. I love to just see their little faces when they hear a story. I'm just know, like I said, I have four of my own and, and a lot of nieces, I come from a family of ten, five brothers and five sisters. So I have nieces and nephews. And, anytime I'm Aunt Terry or Aunt T, or <laugh>, you know, we have a connection with, and in the library, of course they all know that, that I worked there. Anybody could come and, and visit their friends, cousins, nieces, nephews. And one time I had my grandson at the library. I baby him in the summer. Because my daughter and her husband had business to take care of up in Woodland, California. I mean Auburn. <affirmative> And Mr. Humphrey says, oh, my, my grandson was, I think he was seven or, or so seven years anyway, I had him in, enrolled him into the Boys and Girls Club. And so I had my friend Darlene from the library take him and they came back, both of them crying. <laugh> Teater: Oh, no. Rios: My grandson wouldn't stay. He would, he wouldn't stay. And I was working at the library. I couldn't, you know, I've taken care of customers. And so they came back crying, and then I said, okay, you come to the back. And I set him down there and I said, don't you move, you stay right there and eat your lunch or whatever. And anyway Mr. Humphrey was very kind, he never said a word to me about, yeah. Was that of order or anything. I mean, he let me do whatever was necessary for me to continue working there. Teater: I love that. That's so sweet. Rios: My grandson. I mean he loved being there at the library with me. <laugh> can I say, I mean, family always came first with me and I tell all my, the people that I know when they can't attend a meeting, that I, or something that I'm involved with, I say, and they say, my family, my doc, or doctors do whatever families first you take care of that, do not worry about anything else. And I'm saying it's family first when they need whatever they need. But at the same time I live my own life. It's a different life because my husband and I have been married forty-one years. Cause he's my third husband. So I have to do what is necessary to have a good life. And at the same time, do what what's good for other people, especially children and others. But when I can't do it, I can't do it. Like I said, in my home comes first right now with my ill husband has been ill for over 20 years. Teater: Oh no. Rios: Transcribed by MJ Teater 8 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS And he retired. So, but he manages, he's a wonderful person. I mean, I could not ask for a better mate. Teater: Well, that's good to hear. I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to add to your experience as a librarian or anything about that? Rios: Well, I just want you to make sure that, is there any way I can mail this literature to you, this newspaper articles and some of the things that I've did or I'll tell you, do you ever get to the pioneer room? Teater: I do not. So for here, I'm gonna pause the recording. --All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Theresa. It was really great talking to you and learning all about your experience as a librarian and your impact on literacy in Escondido. It sounds so fulfilling. Thank you for your time today. Rios: You're so welcome. And Jay, what, what was your name, Jay? Teater: What? My name is MJ. Rios: MJ. I knew I had one right. Okay. MJ, thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to say all these things that I hope will help other people. Teater: Yeah, they will. Thank you so much for your time today. Rios: You're so welcome. Teater: Okay. All right. Have a good rest of your day. Rios: You too goodly. Teater: All right. Bye. Bye. Transcribed by MJ Teater 9 2022-05-13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Theresa. Interview transcript. April 7, 2022. Description An account of the resource Theresa Rios is a retired Escondido librarian, where she created Las Embajadores Biblioteca. In this interview, Theresa discusses teaching children to read, empowering children to learn, and how her childhood impacted her passion for teaching children to read and love learning. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Theresa Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource MJ Teater Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-07 Subject The topic of the resource Latine Americans Libraries -- Literacy Public libraries Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Arizona Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Theresa Rios License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-17 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-05-13 Community history History Department internship Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a4eab2eb7098e5cb2da2844a583b4393.pdf 529a5a1d54025024f7f1fcfe7d125d1d PDF Text Text Transcript created March 31, 2023 Transcript Faye Jonason: Good afternoon. It is November 29th, 2002―22, and we are at the Marine Corps Mechanized Museum. And I am interviewing―my name is Faye Jonason and I’m interviewing Leslee Roberts, and we’re doing this for CSU San Marcos’s Program for Oral History and for Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton’s Oral History Archives. So, thank you for being here. Leslee Roberts: My pleasure. Jonason: And I’m going to ask you your name—your full name—and for you to spell your last name, please. Roberts: Yes. My name is Leslee Kaye Roberts. That’s R-O-B-E-R-T-S. Jonason: And you were in the Marine Corps! Roberts: Yes, ma’am. Jonason: So, I’d like to know, very much, how you came about the decision and how you came to the Marine Corps. Roberts: (sighs) That’s a bit of a story. Um, number one, I have a―I had a brother and it was his dream to become a Marine. He was about four years younger than I and that’s all he ever talked about. Number one. That was not originally my ambition. I joined the Sisters of Charity to become a nun and that did not work out too well. I’m very independent individual, had hard time conforming. So, I was told that I would not fit with the Sisters of Charity. So, I left. Jonason: Now this was in Cleveland? Roberts: This was in Cleveland. Uh, like I was, uh, in my twenties, and I had no job, and I bounced around for a while, and my brother—bless his heart—kept telling me “Join the Marine Corps. Join the Marine Corps.” It was something that he had desired and something that he worked at for—all through his high school years. He even knew the, um, recruiter, okay? So, he introduced me to the recruiter and the young man convinced me that—what–what’s three years—okay? So, at the time I was doing nothing, and I said, all right. And I put my hand in the air and I became a Marine. Jonason: (laughs) What did your family think about that? Roberts: They weren’t too happy. My mom—she always went along with whatever decision I made, within reason. My dad took it very hard. It was during the Vietnam War, and he even laid his head in my lap and cried, “Please don’t do this!” But it was too late. I already had my hand in the air and I belonged to the United States of America. 1 �Jonason: (chuckles) Okay. So, what happened next? Roberts: I went to bootcamp! Jonason: Where? Roberts: Parris Island, and spent a good s–almost eight weeks—I guess it was—in training. Jonason: What did they train you to do? Roberts: To be honest, as I kind of mentioned here before, um, the whole idea of boot camp wasn’t any different than becoming a sister for Sisters of Charity. (Jonason laughs) The whole idea of both institutions was to take my personality, take me (points to herself) away and to think as one individual. I was not allowed to have individual thoughts or ideas. And the Marine Corps was basically the same. You were to think as one unit and not as a person, but as one unit. Jonason: And so, you’re training― Roberts: In–in the Marine Corps? Boot camp is basically the same. There was a lot of, uh, book learning to learn whatever. There was a lot of marching, learning to follow rules. Um, I don’t know if I can be any more specific than that. Jonason: Did they teach—you know—I know the Marine Corps taught makeup to some women. Roberts: (shaking her head) No. I was never taught about makeup. Jonason: You were—you weren’t taught ― Roberts: You weren’t even allowed to wear makeup. Jonason: (clears her throat) Okay. Roberts: Okay? The—one of the things I remember the most is your hair had to be short. It could touch the collar (points to her collarbone) but not cover the collar. But, again, I didn’t follow those rules and I got away with it. Jonason: Hm. Roberts: (sighs) I have a hard time conforming, still do. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: The rule was it could not—it could–it could touch but not cover, you know, the–the collar (gestures to her shoulder area). So, all I did was wear it up. And as long as I got up every day before Reveille was called, I made sure my hair was up and I had eyebrows on, because you weren’t allowed to wear make up either. Jonason: Oh. (laughs) Roberts: (shrugs) So― Jonason: So, you got your training in Parris Island. 2 �Roberts: Yes. Jonason: And then what happened? Where did you go after that? Roberts: Uh, I was given leave, for two weeks and I—while I was in boot camp, I had choices. I didn’t necessarily—I wouldn’t necessarily get those choices. But, I asked for San Diego, California. And I got California! (she smiles) Jonason: And why did you ask for San Diego, California? Roberts: Because I’d never been out of Ohio. Jonason: Oh, okay. And did they say―I guess they sent you to San Diego. Roberts: They did, all the way to Camp Pendleton. Jonason: Okay. And what year was that? Do you know? Roberts: I believe it was ’66, ’67, yeah. Jonason: Okay. And how–how were you assigned your job? Roberts: Uh, (sighs) that’s a good question. I assumed my job—Number one, I was a bit of older recruit, okay? And I had experience in working— Jonason: You said you were in your twenties. Roberts: I was around twenty-four. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: So, that made me a little bit older than most recruits coming in. They were eighteen, nineteen— Jonason: Oh! Roberts: —years old. Because I had the experience, they took that experience and they gave me an M.O.S., which was forty-one eleven, which was an Exchange person accou–accountant and Commissary accountant. Jonason: And you say you also did some kind of interviewing or training other Marines. Roberts: When I got into working for—in the Exchange—I did—I interviewed people to work in the Exchange, okay? Jonason: Okay. Roberts: And hired them. I worked in Personnel. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: And handled most stuff regarding that. Jonason: And how long did you do that? 3 �Roberts: For the three years that I was in. Jonason: And what do you remember best about your time at Camp Pendleton during that time. Roberts: I met my husband. Jonason: Ah! (chuckles) And how did you meet your husband? Roberts: He also worked in the Exchange. Of course, he was higher up than I was. And, he ran his own store. And, um, at times I was a switchboard―I would work the switchboard and relieve at lunch time. And we got to communicating on the switchboard, and he finally come over and introduced himself. Jonason: Oh! Roberts: And I don’t have to tell you, from that point on, we clicked! Jonason: Okay. Tell me about your switchboard work, because that doesn’t exist anymore, does it? Roberts: No― Jonason: What was that like? Roberts: ―not that I know of. Um, I enjoyed it, okay? It was work that I also did at the hospital when I worked for the Salvation Army [unintelligible]. And um, so because I had that experience it was on my record, so to speak. And when I went to work for the Exchange, I kind of relieved people. I worked in the office. We were all in the same facility. And I would relieve them for lunch, or if someone called in sick, or whatever, so― Jonason: How does the―most―myself, I have never run a switchboard. Roberts: Yes. Jonason: How would I go about doing that? Roberts: Oh, that’s kind of hard to say! (laughs) And that’s—you know—a switchboard! Um, it was just another way of communicating from phone to phone within the offices. And each phone had a number, and there was a number on the board, and there were the cords that you would plug in outside or you could plug them into each other. Jonason: Oh, okay. Roberts: Mm-hmm. Jonason: So, it’s like something you―like—I’m trying to think of what they’re called. Roberts: I can’t think of anything at this time that would―I could compare it to, except if you had a–a phone with buttons, you know. Jonason: Yeah. Okay. 4 �Roberts: You just plugged them in! Jonason: Interesting, interesting. And so, you were here for three years and what were your uniforms that you were required to wear while you were working and while you were doing other― Roberts: I always was in uniform. Jonason: Which was? Roberts: Summertime, wintertime. I worked with the uniform. Jonason: What― Roberts: I was in the Marine Corps. Jonason: —what kind of uniform? Roberts: In the summertime, we had a–a light uniform, fit for the weather. In the winter, we had a much heavier, darker-colored uniform. Jonason: Okay. And you always had to wear a cover outside? Roberts: Outside, always. Jonason: Okay. Is there anything about that work experience that you would like to tell us about? Roberts: Oh, you got to meet a lot of people! Jonason: Yeah? Roberts: Always. And uh, it was always—it was a bit fun, in a way, because you could for months communicate with an individual and talk and say, “How was your day?” and “Oh, I just had a baby,” or whatever, okay? And never, ever see their faces. Jonason: Uh, (chuckles) okay. Roberts: So, that was kind of different. Yes. And it was always a fun experience when they were able to come and say “Hi, I’m so-and-so. I work for―” whatever. Jonason: So, were there civilians that came in and shopped where you were? Roberts: Uh, absolutely! I mean, this was a Commissar―uh, well, at the time it was an Exchange, the Military Exchange. And of course, all civilians, troops― Jonason: Their families. Roberts: Their families, absolutely. Yeah. Jonason: Were there any special events that associated with your–your work? Roberts: Can you be more specific? Jonason: Did they hold any special events at—I guess—at the exchange. 5 �Roberts: No. We–we celebrated the Marine Corps birthday, uh― Jonason: Did they close down the store? Did you have spe―I mean, what did they do for that? (clears her throat) Roberts: Bec–being civilian, not a lot, okay? Because not only the military shopped there; their families did, which was not military, okay? Um, the―we would be closed on holidays. And, we were just like any outside, whether you were working at Target or J.C. Penny or whatever. Jonason: Okay. Um― (A second interviewer, Maryellen Cortellini, seems to be asking Leslee a question, because Leslee looks to her right, away from Faye.) Cortellini: (less audible) Where did you live when you first got to Camp Pendleton? Roberts: I didn’t hear the question. Jonason: Excuse me. What was the question? (It sounds as though Jonason turns to ask the Cortellini to repeat the question.) Cortellini: Where did she live? Jonason: Oh, where did you live when you first came to Camp Pendleton? Roberts: I lived in the W.M., Women Marine’s barracks. Um, it was not my cup of tea. And when I was able, I moved off base. It wasn’t quite, um, legal, but I did. I had a― (sighs) there was a―I can’t remember her rank. I think she was a Staff Sergeant, and she was being transferred to, um, Virginia, and she had pets, and she knew I did not like living in the barracks with a bunch of teenagers. So, she offered me her home if I would take care of her pets! And— Jonason: Oh! Roberts: —I moved off base, oh, within eight months or so and lived in Carlsbad. Jonason: Oh! Roberts: And took care of her home and her pets. Jonason: So, how long had you stayed in the Women Marine barracks themselves? Roberts: Uh, actually, it wasn’t even a full year. Jonason: Okay. And these were wooden buildings? Roberts: No. At the―these were new barracks that they had just recently built. Jonason: So, they were, what, squad based? Roberts: Squad based! Mm-hmm. Jonason: How many― 6 �Roberts: A great big― Jonason: ―bunks? Roberts: Well, I think we had about twenty in the squad bay I lived in. And you were judged— you were put in the squad bay according to your rank. Jonason: And so, you’re–you’re one bunk above and below? Roberts: Exactly. Jonason: And you were required to keep them a certain way. Roberts: Absolutely. Jonason: Regulation. Roberts: You had–you had, um, I can’t remember the exact term. Forgive me. Jonason: Junk on the bunk? Roberts: No, uh― Jonason: (laughs) That’s what I was told. Roberts: We―well, not then! We had to maintain and keep them clean, okay? And so, it was a–a group thing that was done once a week, no matter what your rank was. You were required, you know. Wash floors, windows, whatever. Jonason: Did you also do other things besides your job in maintaining the–the barracks? Did you― Roberts: Oh! Had a good time! (both she and Jonason chuckle) Jonason: Well, you did more than that, I know! (Roberts laughs) Did they have you do—picking up around the barracks, and― Roberts: Uh― Jonason: ―all that kind of stuff? Roberts: Yes. We had, um, um― Jonason: Field day? Roberts: Outside to maintain the—you know—the grass, and the bushes and whatever. Yes, that was also part of our requirement. We were to treat it like it was our home. And we would do those things if we were within our own home. So. Jonason: Had you ever gone to the Green Hat Club? Roberts: No. The Green Hat Club was after me. 7 �Jonason: Okay. Roberts: Okay? I’m not sure what year. Yes, there were a lot of, uh–uh, what do you call them, um― Cortellini: [inaudible] Roberts: —officers clubs. There were different clubs for different rank and of course I was a peon, so I―till I made sergeant, but yes. Jonason: How did ch–becoming sergeant change your life? Roberts: It gave―it made me more independent. I didn’t have to follow some of the rules and regulations. Jonason: So, did you live―you said you lived in the barracks about a year. So, you lived in the– in the Staff Sergeant’s house about two? Roberts: About two years. Yes. Jonason: Okay. And then what did― Roberts: Not legally, but I did. (both she and Jonason laugh.) Jonason: Well, nowadays, you’d get permissions or something. Yeah. Roberts: I’m not sure (smiles wide). Jonason: (laughs) Um, is there any other part of that work that you’d like to share with us? Roberts: As far as the military is concerned? Jonason: Mm-hmm. Roberts: In a way, um, it was―I think once I left the military, I was more conscious of my responsibility when I was in the Marine Corps. Jonason: Oh! Roberts: The motto of a W.M., which we were called—Women Marines—was to release a fighting man. And of course, it was during the Vietnam War, and it was a difficult time for the United States and for everyone. So, I didn’t think about it a lot but once I left the military, I realized what my job was or had been, to help win that war. Jonason: You–you appreciated it more? Roberts: Much more. Jonason: And so, then when you left you got married? Roberts: Yes, I did. Jonason: And where did you go? 8 �Roberts: In fact, I don’t know. I don’t remember all the times, but my husband who was stationed here at Camp Pendleton and his career was basically here, okay? He was a Gunnery Sergeant and he owned a home in Oceanside. And so, when we—naturally when we got married, I moved into his home in Oceanside. Jonason: And how long did you stay there? Roberts: (sighs) Uh, quite a few years. We didn’t move out—I guess I was there at least five years, at least five years, and then we bought a home elsewhere in San Diego. He retired. Jonason: Why did you like San Diego? Roberts: He liked San Diego. Jonason: Did you? Roberts: Yes, I guess so. My children were born here. It became my home. Uh, yes. Yes. I liked it. Jonason: Did you work outside the home once you were married? Roberts: I did, but not until my children got a little older. I actually went to work for the Marine Corps Exchange. (both she and Jonason laugh) Jonason: Okay. And how long did you do that? Roberts: Uh, now you’re asking a question you have to think about. It was a few years. Jonason: Yeah? Roberts: I would say five or six years. Yeah. Jonason: Okay. Well, that’s good. Cortellini: What was the Marine Corps reaction to your announcement that you wanted to get married? Roberts: I–I— Jonason: Oh, you said—Yeah!—How did you―when you decided to get married, there were regulations that you had to jump through before you could do that. Roberts: [chuckles] Yes. Jonason: Both you and your husband. Roberts: Being―being a–a low rank, number one, and being a woman Marine, I had to ask permission from my C.O., the sergeant in charge, and—which I had to do. Uh, between you and me, I did it because it was considered one of my responsibilities. Otherwise, I thought it was a silly rule. Jonason: [chuckles] And your husband had to do the same thing, right? 9 �Roberts: Well, he did. He did. And my―for me, he did it for me. Not so much for himself. He’d been married before. His first wife had passed. So, um, he was a–a bit youn–older than I am or was. And um, so no he didn’t. But, he did, for me. Yes. Jonason: He asked permission for you. Roberts: Right. We went together. Jonason: Oh! Very interesting. And were there any other situa―parts of that that were required? Roberts: No, because when we married, there–there was no problem. But because of our age, okay, we wanted a family. And the–the motto of the Marine Corps was if we wanted you to have a child, we’d issued you one. Jonason: I see. Roberts: So, as soon as I became pregnant, I was automatically dis–discharged. Jonason: (coughs) Excuse me. Roberts: I got an honorable discharge, but, yes. Jonason: Huh. Roberts: So, that’s how I left. Jonason: Interesting. And were you―after you were married, you moved into his house. Were you still a Marine at that poin–time? Roberts: Yes. Jonason: I’m trying to clarify that. Roberts: Uh, until I became― Jonason: Pregnant. Roberts: ―pregnant. Yes. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: Mm-hmm. Jonason: Okay. ( Roberts: We lived there for two children. Jonason: (chuckles) Roberts: He retired. He went to work for the Post Office and we moved into San Diego area. Terry Norwood: Where were your children—(barely audible) first and second—born? Roberts: Camp Pendleton, at the old hospital. 10 �Jonason: Because he was still in the military? Or― Roberts: No. We were―because he was what is considered a lifer, someone who put in twentytwo years of his life. He continued to have privileges— Jonason: Ah. Roberts: —military privileges. Jonason: So, he wasn’t in the Corps still, when they were born? Roberts: No. Jonason: And what did he do? Roberts: My husband went to work for the U.S. Post Office. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: Mm-hmm. He took the test and passed and–and continued to work there for thirty years. Jonason: Wonderful! Roberts: Mm-hmm. Jonason: And I understand that you’re still living in San Diego area. Roberts: Uh, actually I live in the same house. Jonason: (chuckles) Oh, my goodness! Roberts: Live in the same house. We bought a new home outside of Poway and I’ve lived there ever since. I think it was 1972, or something like that. Jonason: Wow! You must like it there. Roberts: It’s paid for! (she chuckles and Jonason laughs) For sure! Jonason: Are there parts of the community that you enjoy more than others? Roberts: In–in San Diego? San Diego?— Jonason: In Poway, San Diego County. Roberts: Uh, you know, I had two other children born there, and, um, it—number one, it was very new. We were one of the first housing developments in the area. So, basically, I watched it grow (raises her hands to indicate something growing) into this huge community. And, um, I felt like it was home. And yes, I do. I like it there. I can’t think of any place else. Jonason: Yes. Norwood: (unintelligible, but sounds like “Chopped Liver”) 11 �Roberts: Uh, I’m not sure. A pool, oh (shrugs)—as far as activities—(looking at Cortellini) is that–is that what we’re talking about? Okay— Norwood: What do you like about the community? Roberts: Oh! I did—yes, I’m talking about the beginning of living in the community and why I stayed there. Uh, I’m very active. Well, I won’t say active but I have a lot of activities within the community since I’ve lived there. So— I like to swim and do water aerobics, and— Jonason: This is a community pool, I take it? Or— Roberts: Yes, it is. Number one, I–I got to watch the community grow. Like I said, we were one of the first developments in the area, housing developments, and so I got to watch it grow. Jonason: There must be a story about being one of the first of the development. Was there— Roberts: No— Jonason: —an event or something? Roberts: —number one, now you want me to be silly? It was a ch— Jonason: No. (laughs) Roberts: Oh, okay. (laughs also) No, it was just a very new community and it was fun greeting all the new people and watching different developments grow, watching schools being built and my children being able to go to those schools. I know— Jonason: Did you get to pick specific flooring and that type of thing in your house wh—at that time? Was that something that— Roberts: Pretty much. Jonason: —Yeah? Roberts: Pretty much so. Yes. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: I mean, the house was built and then I did what I wanted to the inside of it (smiles wide) and outside, of course. Jonason: But that wasn’t with the builder, though. That was on your own, right? Roberts: That was on my own. Jonason: Interesting. Okay. Roberts: Yes. Jonason: (apparently she turns to Cortellini) Are there other questions that you would like to see asked? 12 �Cortellini: Um, it would be nice if she (rest of question is inaudible, but seems to be talking about entering something into a document) Jonason: Well, we’ll have that in the–in the file. Um— Cortellini: Just the fact that she [Cortellini clarification: left her close-knit family and friends, and her small town of Eastlake, Ohio to travel all the way to South Carolina to enlist in Marine Corps bootcamp. How brave and courageous as a young woman to make that monumental decision.] Roberts: (turning her head from Cortellini back to Jonason, smiling) She does— Jonason: Well, I think she–she went in from the frying pan into the fire— Roberts: The fire. Jonason: —didn’t you! (laughs) Roberts: Amen! (laughs also) Norwood: But she’s a cast iron skillet. Roberts: (turning to Norwood): Pardon me? Norwood: But you’re a cast iron skillet. Roberts: Oh, is that—Oh, I–I’ve never quite thought of myself that way, but— Jonason: (continuing to laugh) Yeah, but hey— Roberts: —I will take the compliment. (turns back to Jonason) Norwood: And the other thing I think you could give perspective on is how the military has grown since you’ve been here. Roberts: Oh, absolutely. Uh, as–for women? Yes, absolutely. Uh, it was—we were considered second class citizens back in 1966. Like I think I said previously, we were given the title of releasing a fighter–a fighting man, okay? And we were supposed to, uh—our jobs basically were to fill in where the men would have to leave and we would fill in and take their jobs. So, it was— it’s different today. Women join the military exactly the reason that men do. They want the— They want to do something for their country, number one. I can’t speak for all of them, but yes. I think they— Jonason: Okay. Roberts: —they have the same honor and privileges that they–you–this country offers their military. So, yes. Jonason: If you had a message for a young Marine today, what would it be? Roberts: Whoa! (Jonason laughs) Um, I really wouldn’t have a message for them. It—Number one, I believe it’s something that they—nowadays—let me put it this way. Nowadays, I think 13 �both men and women join the military because they want t–to, because it offers them something that they desire. Back in the day of, say, 1966, uh, men were drafted. Okay? And women were second class citizens. But they did it anyways, (shrugs) whatever their purpose—for their country; for themselves; for their family. So, times have changed. Jonason: Okay! Well, thank you very much. Roberts: You’re very welcome. [the video then stops and starts, and cuts off the beginning portion of what Leslee Roberts is saying, but she continues speaking, turning to Cortellini now:] Roberts: —[San Di]ego people. Or we could become Poway people living in San Diego. Norwood: Mm. Okay. And that, I can’t tell you how huge that is to the education—well, this is not necessar—this is going off on a tangent— Roberts: No, no. It had a–had a big—yes. Because— Norwood: It did! Roberts: just a community— Norwood: It did. Roberts: Mira Mesa, down the road is San Diego. Norwood: Yeah. Roberts: So, we were given a choice, and we made it. And we made the Poway U—part, we helped make Poway Unified School what they are. Norwood: That right there tells— Jonason: Is key. Cortellini: —what this woman is about. So, to–I–just—and— Roberts: I never thought about it, but— Cortellini: (inaudible due to Jonason asking a further question) Jonason: So, you’re saying that there was no Poway schools when you— Roberts: Poway, yes. Poway had their own little, uh— Cortellini: No, it wasn’t. Roberts: —They didn’t even have a high—They— Cortellini: They didn’t have a—They were not a unified school district until late— Roberts: No, they weren’t. Until much later. 14 �Jonason: But, did–did they have a school? Roberts: Oh yes. They had several, um, elementary schools. What was that? (turns from Jonason to Cortellini) They had Poway High— Cortellini: They had one— Roberts: — and one middle school. Cortellini: —Mm-hmm. Roberts: —one middle school. Cortellini: And they, and they were— Roberts: (turns to Jonason) Midland. Yeah, it was Midland. (holds up her left hand) Cortellini: They were part of Escondido. They weren’t really in their s–unified school district,— Roberts: No, they weren’t considered— Cortellini: but they were— Roberts: No. Cortellini: But they— Roberts: It was— Cortellini: And then we had [inaudible] Roberts: It was–Actually, it was–it was considered—it was kind of a country town. Cortellini: Yes. Roberts: It was just this country little, country city. They were themselves, okay? And, um, they did have schools for their kids and whatnot. But that was very small, very limited. I can’t even begin to tell you—Even now, there’s only one main— Cortellini: Okay. I’m st— Roberts: —road, going through Poway, and it’ll always be the main th–main road through Poway because everyone built to the sidewalks! There’s no way of widening it. (Jonason laughs) There’s no way of expanding it. (Jonason clears her throat) It’s all the way up to, uh, Ramona, bay–basically. Cortellini: So, now, I’m going to the Poway Museum and the R.B. Museum to see what historical data is there, because based on more— Roberts: Now— Cortellini: —info about the school district and how it came to be, because— Roberts: See, now Rancho Bernardo was— 15 �Cortellini: —that is really— Roberts: Rancho Bernardo was always there. It was considered more—back in (lowers voice) those (back to speaking voice) days, it was, uh, for seniors. Cortellini: Seniors. Roberts: It was more of a senior place. Cortellini: It was a community planned— Roberts: And um, yes. Cortellini: Yeah. Roberts: And, uh, they did attend, those that were–that lived in, say, Rancho Bernardo. They did attend the Poway school. Okay? Those were the—That was the only school district around. San Diego was a little far ou– far away for them. Cortellini: But–but it wasn’t even a formed Unified School District in the early 70s. Roberts: Till much later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So— Cortellini: Okay. And then, also, um, you’re–you’re being modest. You haven’t been asked to write your history, so I get it. Roberts: (turns to Jonason and shrugs) Cortellini: But just sitting here, I’m thinking of how you guys fought for the community center,— Roberts: Oh, yeah. Cortellini: —the pool that you swim in. Roberts: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Cortellini: You know? All the things— Jonason: And what happened with the community center? Roberts: It was a—We wanted it. They made it. Um, (sighs) how do I say it? It–it wa–I guess—it wasn’t— Cortellini: The city— Roberts: —exactly a community—how–how–what would you call the pool, ‘cuz I’ve been going there for twenty years. Cortellini: Yeah. It was a community center. Roberts: It was. Cortellini: Um, and the city decided to change—all that nastiness out of my mouth real quick— 16 �Roberts: You can say it. I–my ears are used to it. (Jonason chuckles) Cortellini: Then, um, this—When the city decided that to change their Charter and a lot of their zoning and who they were going to support or–or–in–like–They were no longer going to have a senior center. Okay? And they were— Jonason: Oh. Cortellini: —no longer going to have a community pool. But the community rallied— Roberts: But it was considered growing, and they wanted to grow into something besides Poway which we kind of fought for. Cortellini: And, yet, they didn’t want to bring in a Y.M.C.A. They wanted to be— Roberts: No. Cortellini: —their own thing and have it be bigger. But it’s just not what the people wanted at the time. So, these ladies were part of the movement. Roberts: Well, back then, yeah, we kind of steadfast and we voted. Jonason: How were you—How old were your kids at that time? Roberts: Oh they were— Cortellini: Oh, this was only like ten years ago. Roberts: Yeah. Well— Cortellini: But–but I—but I’ve only known you for maybe ten— Roberts: Sss—Yeah. Bu–bu–well, when they started building schools—This was the thing that– that we fought for. Number one was technically, technically I live in San Diego. Okay? But Poway is our school district. Poway is our hospitals. Poway is, you know, all the stuff that makes a city a city. We were able to stay in that group, and—well, Rancho Bernardo, too. But we— whereas just down the road about three or four miles, we have San Diego, Mira Mesa, some of the other ones. Cortellini: It’s very— Roberts: They’re all San Diego, so they have to follow the San Diego taxes, the San Diego whatever, whatever. Cortellini: Well, we do too. Roberts: No, no, I know. But I’m trying to think of things. Cortellini: It’s very convoluted up where we are. It took me a while to wrap my head around— Roberts: Everything. 17 �Cortellini: —how in the world could we be part of Poway Unified when we’re a San Di—city of San Diego address. It was really complex. Roberts: We—But we kind of fought for that. In fact, I can remember Mount Carmel— Cortellini: Well, I’m grateful (chuckles) Roberts: —Mount Carmel wa—uh, all the kids in my–in our area went to Poway High, went to Midland Junior High, okay? S–and–and the elementary school. And my kids started off at Me– Meadowbrook. Meadowbrook? (looks toward Jonason) Cortellini: Yeah. Roberts: Whatever, for kindergarten through ninth, (Jonason coughs) or whatever it was, until we fought for our own schools (Jonason coughs) and our own area. Cortellini: Hhm, that’s interesting. Roberts: So, I mean, yeah. I can remember when they built the high school. Cortellini: Do you? Roberts: Carmel Mountain. Cortellini: You’re a legend in my community, girl. Roberts: (laughs) I don’t know about that, but— (Jonason laughs) we didn’t—Poway, um, was recognized as having a very good school system, okay? Or, whatever. And we wanted to continue with what Poway was giving to our students. Where San Diego was—I mean, look at San Diego. San Diego is a huge place, and it’s gotten huger, so— Jonason: Is Poway considered part of North County? Roberts: Yes. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: Yes. So— Norwood: And, for many, many, many, many, many years, Rancho Bernardo, where I live—She lives in Poway, but sh–very close to R.B., um, but she’s not affected like we are because she’s in Poway. So, R.B. is the farthest north of San Diego. Roberts: San Diego, yep (nodding). Norwood: She is right beneath us. Roberts: On the edge, Mm-hmm. Norwood: We are North County and we are–don’t—We have to fight for the city of San Diego to fix our streets, to— Roberts: To do whatever. 18 �Norwood: To–to do whatever we need— Roberts: Right. Norwood: —because we’re so far north. They forget about us. They’ll take our tax revenue— Roberts: Oh, they do take that! Norwood: —but they’ll forget about us, which is one of–just one of many reasons why we wanted to integrate into our own sch–school system up there. Roberts: Oh, no. I— Norwood: Because it was so small, we could be more vocal. We could give more input into a smaller school district versus being a part of San Diego. Roberts: Well, parents were included. You were invited to come to the–to the school board meetings. You were, you know what I mean? You were invited to participate in becoming a school board member—I mean—so, you were part of it. Where as far as San Diego is concerned, which is—like I said—just five miles down the road, um, they were totally into, uh, San Diego, (shrugs) Mira Mesa and all the ones around there now. So— (shrugs) Jonason: Yeah. Roberts: Aah, we did that a bit, I guess. I don’t— (laughs) We fought for it. Jonason: Well, it sounds like you’re a very active person in your community. Cortellini: Yes. Roberts: Uh, (sighs, shaking her head), that was a long time ago. This old lady has settled in. (she and Jonason laugh) I’m not as active as I used to be. Cortellini: I just wanted to say. You know, when I first met Leslee, before I knew she was a Marine, over time, I started calling her “our fearless leader” (Roberts and Jonason laugh) at the pool, because she had this wonderful way of recruiting more people and she— Roberts: I had a mouth! Cortellini: She singlehandedly— Jonason: It’s a good thing! Roberts: I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. Cortellini: She–but she s— Roberts: When I don’t agree with you, you’re gonna hear about it. (all laugh) Cortellini: She’s still [Cortellini clarification: humble] about it. But, she singlehandedly turned a water aerobics, or water exercise class into a family. That’s how we became friends. Roberts: Yes. 19 �Jonason: Oh. Cortellini: She roped me in, and she writes–ropes in everybody! (laughs) Norwood: Yes. She makes you feel wanted. Cortellini: She makes you feel like a family, and then makes everyone feels welcome, and now, they—you wouldn’t believe the size of our water aerobics. We’re up to forty-plus people (somewhat unintelligible, faint voice, and there is background traffic noise) Roberts: I know. Cortellini: And that’s the summer. Roberts: Well, I think we have around, about thirty permanent, you know, oldies but goodies. Cortellini: That’s—but that’s also— Norwood: (can’t distinguish what she says, due to crosstalk) Roberts: In the summertime. Cortellini: Seriously. I give you credit for that, and you really— Roberts: Oh, not totally. There were— Cortellini: But, she’s— Roberts: Look at Doreen, Cortellini: And see, that’s where Norwood: (unintelligible, due to crosstalk) Roberts: Doreen. (Norwood and Cortellini crosstalk; unintelligible) Roberts: Yeah. It wasn’t just me. Cortellini: (first few words unintelligible) incorporated those values, a team and— Jonason: You feel that? Do you feel that the Marine Corps has helped you be organized and get people together? Roberts: I never thought about it, ‘cuz I was always a mouth. Jonason: Well, but— Roberts: Why do you think they kicked me out of the Sisterhood. Jonason: Because you needed to be a Marine. (laughs) Roberts: No. Because I didn’t fit in. (laughs) 20 �Cortellini: What did we go to the Mayor’s office for? Norwood: Oh, that was film week again. (next few words unintelligible) Cortellini: Okay. Roberts: (nodding) Yeah. Norwood: Still! Still! Cortellini: Leslee has—I know—Leslee has been an advocate for myself, my project, my books. She— Roberts: (to Jonason) Like I said, I’m a mouth. Cortellini: She has shared my books with everybody. Roberts: (to Jonason) And sometimes, if you’re loud enough, people just don’t say no to you. Norwood: I called her my agent there—she still is my agent (rest of sentence is unintelligible). 21 �GLOSSARY Carmel Mountain (pg.18) C.O. (pg.9) Doreen (pg.20) Green Hat Club (pg.7) Gunnery Sergeant (pg.9) Kingsley (pg.15) Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton (pg.1) Marine Corps Exchange (pg.9) Marine Corps Mechanized Museum (pg.1) Meadowbrook [CA] (pg.18) Midland Junior High (pg.18) M.O.S. (pg.3) Mount Carmel (pg.17) Parris Island (pg.2) Poway High (pg.14) Poway Museum (pg.15) Poway Unified School [District] (pg.14) Ramona [CA] (pg.15) Rancho Bernardo (pg.16-19) R.B. Museum (pg.15) Reveille (pg.2) Sisters of Charity (pg.1,2,20) Staff Sergeant (pg.8) W.M. (Women Marines [barracks]) (pg.5,6,8) 22 �23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Roberts, Leslee K. Interview transcript, November 11, 2022. Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leslee K. Roberts Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Faye A. Jonason Maryellen Cortellini Melissa Martin Terry Norwood Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-23 Subject The topic of the resource Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Korean War, 1950-1953 Switchboard operators United States. Marine Corps Veterans -- United States Women marines Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Poway (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en"></a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Leslee K. 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Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29_transcript Community history North County Oral History Initiative Veteran experience Women's experience