1 10 83 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0d373a6360c40c8b8d7efbbccfac3a2d.pdf 1f8b1ac558b508d18aa51c9e6a69f7b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Toro, Albert. Interview Transcript, November 15, 2024 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Albert F. Toro Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Adel Bautista Marilyn Huerta Justin Gans Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Albert F. Toro Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_transcript License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Description An account of the resource Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topice such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam Chile United States Santiago (Chile) Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) Saigon (Vietnam) Củ Chi (Vietnam) Cần Thơ (Vietnam) South Vietnam Mekong Delta (Vietnam) South America San Francisco (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Torrance (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army—Veterans Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Veterans—United States—Chile United States. Army—Noncommissioned officers Fort Ord (Calif.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Community history Latine experience San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e5bf1f97a35282317729bf7098f39994.pdf b4024d6a5dbc4418f2bcf07e8586c7fd PDF Text Text ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Lucy Wheeler: Today is November 16th, 2022, on behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative Project. We’re here at the Nagata Farm, in Oceanside bordering on Fallbrook and Bonsall. My name is Lucy Wheeler, and let’s go inside and meet them! [Lucy is initially on a balcony or deck, then moves inside to meet the Nagatas] Lucy Wheeler: Good morning. George and Alethea Nagata [both nod] Good morning. Wheeler: It’s so nice to be here, and I’d like to introduce you to our audience. Um, on our left we have Mr. George Nagata. George Nagata: Yep. [nodding] Wheeler: And Alethea Nagata, Nagata. [Mrs. Nagata nods] Um, they are second generation of four generations— George Nagata: [nodding] Yes, correct. Wheeler: —and we would love to hear your story, about how your families came to America, to the United States, and mostly just about how you’ve managed to live to your age. So let’s begin by where you were born, and what year, and then just briefly an introduction about how your ancestors came here. It’s your story, but predominantly setting the stage with your history. Do you want to go first, George? George Nagata: Alright. I was born in Gardena, California, in 1924, April 24th. Um, um, my father came over in about 1900, from, uh, a city of Kumamoto, Japan, which is in the south, southern Japan. And, uh, the family were, uh—they loaned money and, loan sharks I guess you’d call ‘em. And, um, they were pretty well off, and they would, uh, uh, have the rice as a collateral for the loaner to bring in. So, they would pile up a lot of rice and, and then they couldn’t pay, they took the rice. But they didn’t know what to do with it. So, after a while they decided to start a sake factory, and they progressed in it, and, and they were pretty well off. Uh, my father just went to school, and, and in fact he graduated from university and he was well educated for, um, people at that time. And so when he―he said that he used to get up in the morning and he had nothing to do so he would go out hunting for birds and he would bring it home, and, and eat those birds. But he got tired of it, and he wanted a, a more adventurous so he decided to come to United States and at first he landed in, uh, uh, Seattle, then came to San Francisco, and he went to night school there and he was a house boy for some old people. And, uh, uh, he didn’t—he learned his English, so he went into various business because if he needed money he would just send a letter to Japan. They would send him money to do whatever he wanted to do. So, he did some farming of cotton in Arizona, and then in Texas. But he wasn’t successful. He said he went to work for a railroad, and uh, and, uh, uh, in Arizona, and uh after a while he said he got tired of that. So, he, uh, come down to Los Angeles and he was just moaning around and doing a little farm work for people and I guess he did some joint venture with other people. But, he wasn’t successful so he decided at age, about, uh, forty-eight, he thought “Oh, I’m getting old. I’d better go find a bride!” [Mrs. Nagata chuckles] So, he went to Japan and married my mother, and they Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 came over in about 1920. And their first child was born in, in 1921, but only lived for nine months. She had diphtheria and she died. And so, next child was myself. In 1924, I was born, and my father bought a, a farm from some friend who was, uh, uh,―made enough money to go back to Japan. So, my father bought this farm, and they were working it, but they weren’t that successful. So, um, they decided to move from Gardena to Torrance and I was about four years old, and, and, and my mother would take the uncooked rice and they’d build a little pot, a fireplace, and then they, they asked me to watch them so that a fire won’t go out and I, I kept feeding the wood in there to keep the uh, rice cooked. By 12 o’clock the rice was ready, We would have a lunch. And then my mother would go back to work. And, uh, from Torrance, uh, we farmed there for about three years and my dad decided to go to Heinz, which is uh, uh, near Bellflower, California. And we were, uh, farming there and he planted uh, uh, strawberries and some melons and I was about six or seven years old. And dad would say that “I’m going to teach you how to drive a horse.” [Mrs. Nagata chuckles] So he made a little sled, and, and he wanted me to pick the melon and put it in this box, and haul it back to the shed, so he could pack it. And I did that for a while. But, you know, being so young that I, I wanted to play! I did not want to work. [chuckles] Uh, he used to tell me “You gotta help me.” And, my brother Harry was born in 1925 [turns his head towards his wife] and that was in, um, Torrance, and— Wheeler: Let’s, uh— George Nagata: And uh, huh? [turns to look at his wife] Wheeler: Oh, I was just going to say, let’s let her tell her part up to that point. George Nagata: Okay. Wheeler: And then we’ll connect how you met each other. So, tell us about your— Alethea Nagata: I was born in Bonsall, California. Wheeler: Very close! Alethea Nagata: October 15th, 1926. And my parents had moved from, from Orange County to Bonsall, to change a little bit of their f—their, you know—to a new land, sort of. And so that’s where we, um, settled for a while. And then, uh, he moved to San Luis Rey where he started farming again. Wheeler: What were your parents’ name? Alethea Nagata: Wor Tasuke and Kane Yaskochi Wheeler: Okay. Alethea Nagata: And [clears her throat] they were both married already in Japan in about 1919. And they, they came to America separately. My father came about 1920 with his father, and my mother came about a year—I believe, about a year or so later. And, uh, they settled in Orange County. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Wheeler: And your father was here in—what year did you say? 1920? Alethea Nagata: About 1920. Wheeler: But his father— Alethea Nagata: Was here earlier. Wheeler: Earlier. Alethea Nagata: He arrived in the U.S. 1905, right after the San Francisco earthquake. And that’s where their journey sort of began. And he―um, my grandfather did various jobs along the way, and then―in 1905―and then he landed in Orange County, where there were, a few, I believe, a few Japanese already there. And so, he started the, the growing peppers. Wheeler: And became the Pepper King? Alethea Nagata: Well, [smiles] that’s what they called him. Wheeler: [laughs] Alethea Nagata: Anyway, that was sort of the beginning of the peppers. Wheeler: Very good. Well, how did you two meet? George Nagata: Well, uh, that was after, after the World War II. Well, uh— Wheeler: So, it’s a substantial difference then— George Nagata: yea, [nods] Wheeler: —in the time that you came and when you met. Alethea Nagata: Yes! Well this was after the war, so— Wheeler: Okay. Alethea Nagata: So, there— Wheeler: In the, in the interim, tell us where you went to school then, um. Were you in school in, um? George Nagata: Oh, I was a, a, in school in, in, Oceanside, before evacuation. The problem was that, uh, when we moved to Oceanside in 1940, my father got sick, yeah. We were building a house so we could move to Oceanside from Bellflower, California where he had farmed, and I was about fifteen years old. And he was building his house and then he said “I got a backache, and it’s really bad.” So, I took him to a doctor, and the doctor says “I can’t help you.” He said “You gotta go to a specialist.” And, uh, we were, uh, uh, broke because we just moved and we put all the money into building the house and, and preparing the land and so, uh, my dad went to the doctor and they found out he had pleurisy and so they put him in the hospital and uh, uh, he was in the hospital for three months! And, uh, we had to commute from Oceanside to the Los Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Angeles every day. So, my mother said “Let’s, uh, live with a friend in Los Angeles where it’s closer to see dad.” So, we, uh, my mother and I went to live with this friend of our family and we commuted to the hospital every night from there. From Downey to Los Angeles. And so, I was living in Downey, so I had to still go to school, so I registered at Downey High and went to school there a while. But, before we moved—when we moved to Oceanside, I started school in Oceanside and went about a month, or a month and a half to Oceanside. Then I transferred back to Downey and then once my dad got out of the hospital I went back to Oceanside and my dad couldn’t work. So, my mother did all the work. And, uh, I went back to Oceanside but my studies all messed up because of moving all the time, and, uh, so— Wheeler: Were you farming at the time? George Nagata: No, um, my mother was doing the farming. But we helped out as much as possible. We were absolutely broke! When my dad got sick, it cost us a lot of money to take care of him. So, we were—so, my mother had to go see friends to borrow money from them, because we couldn’t get any money. We didn’t have any property, anything to— We had an old automobile and an old truck, [Mrs. Nagata chuckles] so— Wheeler: What kind of farming did you do, what—? George Nagata: Uh, just had five acres of strawberries. Wheeler: Oh! That’s exciting. George Nagata: With strawberries, you plant the first year, and take the runner, and plant the runner, so you don’t harvest till second year! So, when we were farming there the first year, we planted a little bit of Italian squash, and we sold it to San Francisco, because the market was better there, and that’s how we were able to feed ourselves, and also, we went to work for other farmers. We did a bit of harvesting, but they, uh, wanted me to drive a horse with a cultivator— Wheeler: [laughs] George Nagata: —because my dad taught me how to do it, and they needed a person to drive the horse. So, I was assigned to do that every day! I had to harness the horse and get the cultivator, and cultivate the crop! Wheeler: And now, how, how old were you then when the second world war started: George Nagata: Well, I was sixteen. Wheeler: And tell us a little bit about—since you had not met each other at that time— George Nagata: No, no— Alethea Nagata: Not yet. George Nagata: No— Wheeler: Tell me how you— Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 George Nagata: No, that was before the war. Now, uh, come May, I think about the 15th of May of 1942, we were evacuated. We were ordered to go to the Santa Fe Train Depot, and load, get on this train. And so, they said that you could only take two suitcases each. And so, we went and bought a suit—suitcase for each of us. And, and we packed up our suitcase. We went to the train depot and we boarded a train in the morning, and they had NPs on the train. They wouldn’t let us open the window or anything. It’s all shaded. And we didn’t know where we were going. And about three o’clock in the afternoon, uh, we went and the train stopped in Barstow, and they gave us a sandwich so that, you know, then we continued to Poston, Arizona. And when we got to Arizona, they put us on a bus and transported us to the concentration camp, and at first we had to stuff the mattress with straw because there was nothing there. They had to make―we got there at 8:30, 9 o’clock at night and we had to make our own bed. They gave us a cot and for each of us and so we went to sleep, and— Wheeler: How long were you there? [clears her throat] George Nagata: We were—Well, I was, I myself, was there only for a little over a year. And I, I was a, a—my friend said―he was going to Chicago―“Don’t you wanna go to Chicago?” I said “Yeah, I’ll call along, tag along with you, because I don’t know the country. I want to go.” So, I went to Chicago myself, with this friend and I, I learned how to be a auto mechanic, because I worked in the shop. There is a lot of people who were experienced mechanics and they taught me how to do all this repair. So, we had a full garage and all these people would teach me. So I was pretty confident that I could make a living. So, I went to Chicago and got a job as a mechanic. And, and I worked there for about four or five months, and, uh, my dad said that they gotta leave the camp, because they’re asking everybody to leave. So, my dad says “Meet me in Colorado. I’m going to see if we could do a little farming there.” So, um, I gave my job up and I went to Grand Junction, Colorado, and my father―the reason my father said that we could do some farming was because his nephew was from Hawaii and Santa Fe, New Mexico in a concentration camp, and his assets were frozen because he was an enemy Asian. But that money will be released if you want it for farming, and he said you’ll loan us the money, whatever you want. So, he said that he could come and live on the farm with us. So, my dad took him up on it, and we borrowed the money from him, and we started a little farm and I went to work for some man that owned a seed company. And he said “Why don’t you farm for me?” And he said “Go drive a tractor.” Well, I never drove a tractor, but anyway he says “You know how to drive?” I says “Yeah, I know how to drive.” So, I went there then he looked at me and he said “You don’t know how to drive.” Wheeler: [laughs] How long were you in Colorado? George Nagata: I was in Colorado ‘til 1944. From say ’43 to ’44, was it ’45 that I came to California? [turns to his wife] Alethea Nagata: [starts to laugh, as does Linda] I think so. I’m not sure what happened with you. George Nagata: We were farming and this man who owned this seed company was a cook. We never, I never got paid for working for him or then he said that if could grow some onion seed, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 that’s what the land leases to England, and he said “I’ll pay you for growing that thing.” And when it come to the end, we harvested it and gave him the seed, and I never seen a dime of it. Wheeler: Oh my! [Mrs. Nagata chuckles] George Nagata: And I asked the farmer that was next door who was also a evacuee that come out of a concentration camp to do a little farming. There was about five or six together and they were farming and, uh, they grew the onion seed for him. There was four or five other farmers. They said “Oh, that’s a good deal.” They all grew onion seed. And the company in England sent a check directly to those farmers. And the guy in the seed company, he really got mad and he said “They were supposed to pay me. And they said that if I sent it direct, that I was supposed to get a commission.” And my friend says “Okay, I’ll pay you commission, whatever you want.” He says “No, that won’t do.” He says “I want the check and that’s the only way I’ll accept it.” So everybody took the check and signed it and gave it to him, and they didn’t see a dime! [shrugs his shoulders incredulously and laughs] Wheeler: Oh. Wow! George Nagata: They said “We were stupid, because there’s no recourse because we signed [gestures with both hands to indicate signing a document] off the check.” [raises hands to indicate giving something up] So, uh, and this guy had a big farm in, uh, in Gilroy, California. And all my friend says is “Hey, forget it.” He says “You’re not going to get paid,” and sure enough― Wheeler: So, you left and came back to California, then? George Nagata: So, uh, after the war, we were allowed to come back to California, so I came to California to see how we could get back and where we could go. And, a friend of ours, uh, had a friend in Vista and he was a doctor and he―they own an avocado grove, and there was a house on it with a little shack there that was a chicken coop converted into a room. So, when we moved to California, he said “Stay in this chicken coop for a while.” [Mrs. Nagata chuckles] So, what we did―we just―I loaded the truck up and a little pickup and we brought all of our stuff over. And we lived in the chicken coop and we were looking for land where we could farm a lease. We don’t have enough money to buy any property, so we, uh, uh, found, uh, uh, thirty acres of land that he wanted to sell. But, he said “I tell you what I’ll do. I’ll lease, lease it to you, uh, and, uh, you have to buy the property after one year.” So, we decided we’d better go ahead and get that land. So, we went there. There’s no house or anything. So, we put up a tent and lived in the tent and the houses were hard to get because right after the war there was nothing. There was a prehab house that was on sale. It’s not made out of, uh, wood. It’s, it’s, uh, the wood is hemlock, but it’s more of a composition material and we bought that and put it together and we lived in this house. And then, uh,― Wheeler: This was in 1945? George Nagata: [nods] 1945. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Wheeler: Okay. Let’s stop and, and have Aletheatell us about what― Alethea Nagata: Well, so this is, this is before the camp. Wheeler: Right. Alethea Nagata: And my father was―had a farm in Rancho Santa Margarita. He rented land. That was before it was turned into Camp Pendleton. And, [clears her throat] and he was raising strawberries there. And that’s when the, um, when the war broke out and the FBI picked him up there, um, in Rancho Santa Margarita. Well, he was living in San Luis Rey, but he was going back and forth to Santa Margarita. He rented the property from Rancho Santa Margarita, from a gentleman named Whitman. [clears throat] And, uh, uh, [clears throat] and then, um, he was―the FBI came to this ranch Santa Margarita and picked him up. And I was in San Marcos, living with my grandparents. And that’s where they picked up my grandfather, the same day. Wheeler: Was this Kiso? Alethea Nagata: Yes, Kiso. And they took my father and Kiso to the San Diego jail, and they stayed overnight there. And then [clears throat], and then they transferred them to a, I believe it’s a Tohanga, California, in Los Angeles. And so, we as a family were able to go and see them. And that’s where our journey, uh, begins with our family getting ready to go to camp. ‘Cuz I was going to Escondido High School, and then, uh, because the war had broken out, we, uh, we had to, uh, go to get ready to go to camp. And my uncle was trying to decide whether to move our whole family to Colorado because, uh, as long as you’re not on the west coast, you could, you could, uh, you know, farm, uh, in Colorado, or probably in the Midwest. But, my father, uh, said not to go, but to go to camp. So that’s what we did. We all got to, got ready to go to camp. Wheeler: And where was the― Alethea Nagata: And we ended up in Poston. Wheeler: Oh. Alethea Nagata: Um, my experience was not, uh, as, as harsh as his [points to Mr. Nagata], because, um, other family members had gone a little earlier and did the beds and things. So, um, I didn’t―I―my grandmother wasn’t in very good condition. So, we probably went a couple of days later. And so, uh, the cots and things, the ones that went first, you know, got theirs, or got it ready for us. So, we―we ended up in Camp One in Poston, Arizona and I believe you ended up in Poston [turning her head to look at Mr. Nagata], but in a different, uh― Wheeler: Different section? Alethea Nagata: Block. They were broken up into blocks. Wheeler: So, you had quite an experience before you’d even gotten married and established your― Alethea Nagata: Oh, yes! [laughing] Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Wheeler: ―careers in farming. Um, tell us about when you were allowed to come back. What changed your lives after that, besides getting married and meeting each other? Alethea Nagata: Well, my father and grandfather were sent to, uh, to Santa Fe, New Mexico and Lordsburg, New Mexico. They were in different facilities from us. They were, uh―my grandfather was released earlier than my father, was sent to the Poston camp where we were. And then my father was released, uh, I believe about 1944, and, um, and he came back to Poston. But, uh, in the meantime, we were living separately. Wheeler: Yes. Um, when you came back then, where did―when you came back, where did you―? You probably came back to Oceanside? George Nagata: [nods] We came back to Oceanside. Wheeler: And who― Alethea Nagata: My, my father and uh, uncle, and uh, my grandfather’s place was in San Marcos. Wheeler: Okay. Alethea Nagata: And my father had a place in San Luis Rey. And so, uh, his―his farm―we left the farm in, um―my grandfather’s farm was left in charge of a vice principal of Escondido High School. And he, he took over and―and we hired a, a family man to come in and oversee the place. And, uh, they lived in my grandfather’s house. There was a main house and then there was a kitchen area. And so, the people who, uh, the vice principal hired was a―well their name was Tarbutton. [laughs] I remember the name. And um―uh, the kitchen area was a―was a fairly large, and so the family was able to live there. And the main house, uh, was left, just left. And, uh, so when we came back from camp, that’s where we fir―we landed in San Marcos where my grandfather’s place. And my father had returned from camp just, just a―[shakes her head and tries to speak] when he was able, they were allowed to come back. So, he came back by himself with, I believe, my uncle’s wife and, and they planted, um, zucchini, I believe, some kind of a early crop. So, then he, then he, then he came back to Poston and picked us up. So, then we all came back later, just a little bit later. 1945. Wheeler: Wow. So, you were just― Alethea Nagata: But we do have, we had a place to―at least we had a home. Wheeler: Yes. Alethea Nagata: Yeah. And, uh― Wheeler: Exactly. Alethea Nagata: Mr. Grave, the vice principal, uh, took care of everything for us. So that was very nice. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Wheeler: So, when did you graduate from high school, then? Alethea Nagata: I graduated in camp. Wheeler: Oh, did you? Alethea Nagata: Uh-huh. George Nagata: Well, I didn’t get to go to school. Wheeler: Okay, that―and that was probably not uncommon. George Nagata: Yeah. Wheeler: So, then actually― Alethea Nagata: And it wasn’t accepted either, or― George Nagata: So, when I was in Chicago, I wanted to go to night school. And I applied there, and they said that, that concentration camp I was in was not an acclaimed school, so you’re going to have to start over again. So, I says “Oh, I can’t start over again.” [both he and Wheeler laugh] So, uh, I didn’t get any education at all. Wheeler: No, but sometimes it’s not just all education in the school. So, what happened then after ’45 that you came back and started again? George Nagata: Uh, it was very tough [shaking his head]. We didn’t have any equipment, and so, so [cell phone starts to ring]. Excuse me. [reaches into pocket for cell phone] I don’t know who is calling. [looks at screen, and shakes his head] Scam! [Wheeler and Alethea Nagata laugh] George Nagata: So, when we got back to California, um, I went to the bank to borrow money and they laughed at me and said “You know, to tell you the truth, I’m not loaning you my money. He says “The bank has a depositor. They all deposit the money, and I’m responsible for it. So, I gotta have a collateral, whatever you own. But, I don’t own a thing, ‘cuz I can’t loan you any money.” So, in order for us to farm, we had to have a little bit of backing and so, uh, the L.A. produce market was loaning money to the growers, to advance the money, and they get all the produce. So, we borrowed the money from them, and started growing and sometimes it pays, and sometimes it doesn’t, because the market was, you know, some oversupply of tomatoes and things. And I would go over there and I would borrow money from, uh, for uh, buy fertilizer on credit. And they would just loan me the money, and one company there, I owed about three thousand dollars, and they wanted to get paid. I said “I don’t have any money right now. So, can you wait?” But what happened was that I planted, uh, twenty acres of strawberries and it was ready to harvest when I got hailed out. Because all the hail was just deforming the whole plant. And never produced a single berry! And so, I had all this money tied up into strawberries. And I can’t harvest anything. And the supply companies, this was, uh, uh, the fertilizer and insecticide I bought, I couldn’t pay for it. So, they wanted to sue me. And they reported it to the Credit Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Bureau that I haven’t paid for one year and they’re going to, uh, to file a lawsuit against me. And so, uh, when they had filed, I went back to the produce house, and I begged them to loan me some more money. I gotta pay that guy, or he’s going to sue me. And so, uh, I was able to borrow enough money to pay the, that fertilizer company off. And there was more, other companies, the seed companies. And I owed them money. They said they would hold off. And so next year I figured well, what I’m going to do is double the acreage of strawberries, and try to get the money back. And I planted forty acres of strawberries and we started harvesting in April and there was a beautiful crop! My God! Everybody was envious. I was harvesting 4,000 boxes a day. And all of a sudden it started to rain. [Wheeler and Alethea Nagata chuckle] And for two weeks straight! And it just destroyed the whole berries. And so, uh, his uncle [he points to his wife] was familiar with some freezer company in Fallbrook there and they talked him into starting a strawberry freezer! And, uh, he come to me and said “Hey, why don’t you invest in this. All the growers will put up money, and we’ll go ahead and process the strawberries.” And we were, before that we were sending our frozen berries to Smucker’s. Well, they paid pretty good. Well, I said “Fred, I think we shouldn’t go into this business. It’s a risky business.” He says “No, it’s a sure thing.” But, his company went bankrupt so he got a job in Oxnard or― Alethea Nagata: Ventura. George Nagata: Ventura, for his chili company. And he let us go and left his freezer go. But we were members of the Freezers so we had to ship it to him. So, I―the second crop, the rain had stopped, so we sent all of our berries to this freezer, and, and, uh, to buy the can and buy the sugar, well, somebody has to guarantee the payment on it. See? And so, about four or five of us volunteered to go ahead and sign the agreement that we’re responsible. Well, at the end of the season, they can’t pay for the cans, they can’t pay for the sugar. And so, they froze my bank account! Because I was one of the guaranteers. And hell, I couldn’t―I had workers, and I couldn’t―and my brother said “Hey, they froze the account. We can’t pay the, the help. We’ve got to pay the help.” So, “Oh, my god.” We went back to the produce house and borrowed some more money, and, and we were able to pay American Can and sugar. All of us growers put up the money to pay this off. And then the company went bankrupt. The strawberry in a frozen can, we―W.H. Ruth Company is a marketing ____________, and they put it in a cold storage. And they couldn’t sell it, so they had it in cold storage so long that the storage fee ate up all of it. [chuckles] Wheeler: Right. George Nagata: And so, you know, we were out of― Wheeler: And there’s the― George Nagata: We took a beating. Oh my God. Wheeler: It was quite an adjustment after the war, getting established. We’ve kind of skipped over your coming back. You came back to San Marcos. And tell us a little bit more about how your family was farming and had you married at this point? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Alethea Nagata: No. Wheeler: You hadn’t met each other. Alethea Nagata: No. Not yet. Wheeler: Okay. So, you were living in San Marcos. You were living in Oceanside? George Nagata: San Luis Rey, at that time. Wheeler: San Luis Rey. Alethea Nagata: But, he, he, uh, I’m getting confused now a little bit. But, um, there was so much that went on. We came back and, um, my grandfathers settled in San Marcos, and we―and our family were in San Luis Rey. So, um, my―I guess, my father―well, all I remember was coming back from camp and my father made me drive the Caterpillar and he was―because we didn’t have any help. And so, he―he got on the back and―and he wanted me to drive the Caterpillar. Well, I had never driven it before. But I―that stands out in my mind as an incident that I do remember, that when we first came back, that’s what he made me do! [laughs, as does Wheeler] Wheeler: And you had just graduated from high school at that point. Alethea Nagata: I had already finished in camp. Wheeler: So that was pretty, uh, different for women at any― Alethea Nagata: Well, my sisters― Wheeler: ―any _________ Alethea Nagata: There were three of us girls. The first three. And my sister drove trucks and, I mean, she did all kinds of things. Both of my sisters. And so, it wasn’t so outrageous. And my dad was extremely kind to women. Wheeler: Mmm. Alethea Nagata: For someone from Japan, he took care of the women. So, I do to this day remember that for being a Japanese man, that he―he respected women. So, that’s always been very nice. But, um, uh, the farm, well, he―we grew―he grew asparagus. And he still did grow chili peppers at that time. Wheeler: At that time, had they done the diversity that they do now? Or was that just beginning? Alethea Nagata: Then―then―then, the diversity began, um, when my younger brother kind of started taking over. Oh, my father was still involved with it. They grew romaine, and tomatoes, and things like that. So― Wheeler: As we look at the farmers now,― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 11 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Alethea Nagata: Strawberries, also. Wheeler: ―and the some fields will be waiting, like, some year we’ll plant, but others have those plants about 6 inches high. Others they’ll be almost grown. You can see how the changes. How did that all come about, just by trial and error? Or by deliberate planning? Alethea Nagata: Well, there’s, um―my father and my brother grew cauliflower, um, and that is not a money-making crop. But, they, they grew asp―the cauliflower because it kept the workers so that you had to maintain the workers, you know. That was a part of the problem, also, is to have enough help. Wheeler: Mm-hmm. Alethea Nagata: And so the reason for even planting it was, um, to keep the help, you know. That was quite a, um, problem in keeping―[turns her head toward Mr. Nagata] you know about keeping the workers. So― George Nagata: Getting back to her uncle, Fred. He took a liking to me and he wanted me to go around with him into like the Farm Bureau, and this labor, uh, the Bracero program, where we had association. And I spoke with one of the Board of Directors, and he took me all the places and introduced me to all the things that, and he was a, a, a U.C. Davis graduate. So, we would go into U.C. Davis and, and try to get, uh, the university to experiment, develop a new variety of berries for, suitable for southern California. And they said that uh there was no budget for it. So, we went to the Legislature and had one of our representatives, um, pass a budget so they could experiment. So, they, the university assigned a man and sent him down here where and we were trying new strawberries, grapes, and after a while it was successful that it helped us all survive the strawberry industry in, in southern California, from Oxnard to San Diego. We got a new variety and kept improving and improving our, our strawberries. And everybody was able to stay in business. Uncle Fred was one of the instigators in that. And he says one day to me “Hey, I got a blind date set up for you.” [Mrs. Nagata chuckles] We’re going to the Palladium.” [Alethealaughs] So, I wondered who it was? And it was her! [all three of them laugh] And so that’s how we got together. Alethea Nagata: Well, my uncle Fred was a, um, he was drafted into the Army when we were in camp. He was, yeah,― Wheeler: He didn’t ______________ Alethea Nagata: He was in the artillery, yeah. And he had, he saw action in Europe, and― [clears her throat] Wheeler: Hhmmm. This was quite a― Alethea Nagata: Yes. Wheeler: ―with your fam―some of your family back in Japan. Some of you in camp. And then he’s fighting in the― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 12 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Alethea Nagata: The people in Japan were, were, couple of children that were left in Japan were from my grandfather. And, and, um, [clears throat] they were kind of farmed out. Because of the law, they were not able to come. He was not able to bring them later because one child was just born when my grandmother came to this country. She couldn’t handle a two-year-old boy and you know, on the, on the ship. So, they left two daughters in Japan, my grandfather did. And he had to, to farm them out and among relatives and, and the, the baby he had to farm out to a, a woman who would kind of take over childcare. And so, these poor women that were left in Japan, was pretty terrible, because of the law. And they were not able to come to the U.S. [clears throat]. So that’s a little background but― Wheeler: Yes. Those are things that are barriers and we have to really think about― Alethea Nagata: Well, see, yeah. Because it was the Asians that were, were in that kind of predicament, whereas it did not affect the Europeans. Wheeler: Yes. So, after, um, about, say up until 1960, did things start to turn around then, for the growth and the diversity? When did that really take hold? George Nagata: Uh, it took hold about ten years after they granted a experiment in southern California. First it was, uh, U.S.D.A. property and it’s on the beach, where it was a little too small to do an experiment so the, uh, university had a property there in, uh, in, uh, Orange County that, uh, belonged to the university so they moved the experimental plot to, uh, Irvine Ranch. And Irvine Ranch gave them, I think, about twenty or thirty acres to the university and they started experimenting there. And they developed various varieties and that’s when we were able to adapt a new variety of strawberries here, and it was very successful. Wheeler: That is very interesting because we’re known for good strawberries that we have. George Nagata: That’s true. Wheeler: Right now, do you grow a lot, different kinds of crops? George Nagata: Well, after we retired, in about 1980, we, uh, figured to stop growing, uh, any kind of crop because it is a gamble and we didn’t want to, because they’re growing a lot of tomatoes in Mexico and strawberries in Mexico. And it’s hard to compete with produce from foreign countries. And they flooded the market, and they just grow thousands and thousands of acres of tomatoes and strawberries, that you can’t compete with them. And so, we decided we’re going to quit the farming business. We’ll quit. And I asked Neal and one of my nephews to, if they were interested, and they said they would take it over. So, I, we gave it to them. And we were operating okay, but the nephew got into gambling and he, uh, the company money― Wheeler: But the, um, back to the, the way that agriculture has changed, and how you survived from one kind of crops to another. What kind of things have you done that have been innovative in making that happen? Like were you, you were probably growing some asparagus or some other things besides the cauliflower. George Nagata: Well, we started to grow the crops, like blueberries. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 13 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Wheeler: Okay. George Nagata: We put in about― Alethea Nagata: Cherimoya. George Nagata: ten acres of blueberries, and also the cherimoya, which is a fruit. I don’t know if you know what cherimoya is. It’s, um, [turns to his wife] what happened to the one I gave you? Alethea Nagata: I’ll, I’ll show it to her. Wheeler: There’s a lot of people that come here from all over the world, and they’d probably like to know that. George Nagata: And so, it hasn’t been very successful and the cherimoya takes a lot of labor, because you have to hand-pollinate those. But, uh, [looks to the left, off camera, and Mrs. Nagata reaches to the left to grab a cherimoya] Wheeler: Could you show that so―there we go. [Aletheaplaces the cherimoya on the table in front of Wheeler] Tell us about this little piece of fruit. George Nagata: This is a small one! They get about this big! [gestures a wider diameter than the actual fruit] Wheeler: Oh really! George Nagata: Mm-hmm. [Aletheapushes the fruit across the table to Wheeler, and then pulls it back to center it on the table between them] Wheeler: Okay, there we go. You see that now? Um, well, there’s a lot of us that don’t know what that is, or how do you use it? And how do you grow it? George Nagata: It ripens and there’s a lot of seeds inside. You have to sort the seed out. Alethea Nagata: And people who love it, love it. They just― Wheeler: Is it a fruit? Alethea Nagata: It’s a fruit. George Nagata: I don’t― Wheeler: So― George Nagata: I don’t care for it [laughs] Alethea Nagata: It’s sort of like a slightly banana flavor, but the people who grow up with it― Wheeler: Is it easy to grow in this climate, in this soil? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 14 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 George Nagata: It’s easy to grow, but hard to set. It doesn’t form a fruit. You have to handpollinate them. Wheeler: Oh! Very interesting! George Nagata: The flower is like a trumpet [holds his hand up to indicate an open trumpetshaped flower] so it can’t get the pollen inside, see. Wheeler: What do you eat it with? George Nagata: Yeah. Alethea Nagata: Well, um― Wheeler: Just by itself? Alethea Nagata: By itself, yeah. Wheeler: Like an apple? Alethea Nagata: Uh-huh. Wheeler: Very interesting. Alethea Nagata: Well, you have to remove the seeds, you know. But, yeah. Wheeler: So, this is very interesting in that we contribute so much to the agricultural industry in San Diego. It’s the fourth largest industry. So, you’ve contributed to this in so many ways. I’m fascinated by how you’ve had your ups and downs, the fact that there were times when the Japanese could not buy land here. There were times when they could, and how all these things change, and the incarceration was atrocious. But, you’ve survived it, and what do you see as the future of farming here? Is that a, too big a question? Alethea Nagata: It is a big, large question, because of the laws. How California is. George Nagata: They don’t want us to farm. Most of the politicians, they want to get rid of the farms. And that’s why they cut off the water for a lot of― Wheeler: That’s another thing that you’ve had to deal with, is the water situation. George Nagata: That’s right. Wheeler: And how is it so scarce now, and there’s, um, almost rationing. Well we’re restricted in how many times we can water our yards. So, so all of these things that impacted your livelihood, and we all want our children and our grandchildren to live happily ever after but that’s, it changes whether we like it or not. George Nagata: It changes. Alethea Nagata: I believe California was supplying United States with a lot of the, the vegetables and fruits, I believe. But I don’t know. California is really interesting. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 15 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Wheeler: Yes, it is. The citrus fruits have been shipped all over the world. And yet, at the same time you’re talking about the strawberries and how that has been impacted, too. But, what other things have you, in your interesting lifespan, what other things have you―would you like to share with our community, our, with our future, what, what would you, what is your secret as they famously say? George Nagata: Well, I don’t think there’s very much future in the farming business because the foreign countries like Chile, and all those South American countries are growing and shipping all the stuff here, and Mexico. That’s a wide-open country there. And I farmed there for a couple of years and an associate with a Mexican partner. I grew, planted 500 acres of strawberries, down there. [Mrs. Nagata laughs] And, I told my partner that his job was to get the pickers, and, and make the cooler big enough so where we could handle 500 acres of strawberries. You have to pre-cool those strawberries or they won’t ship. And when you cool them down to 34 degrees, just before freezing, there is, the food gets firm, and you could ship it to the United States without damaging the fruit. Well, when it grows 500 acres, the facilities won’t handle but pay one-tenth of what they, uh, What I told him that. Well, he says “my brothers all have coolers.” I said “They’re not prepared for that. You gotta prepare for that. It’s got to be a cool, cool, 34 degrees. It has to have kind of a vacuum cooled deal, and you gotta set it up.” And he said “Don’t worry. I’ll get them to do it.” He doesn’t do it. So, we lost 500 acres of berries! Wheeler: There’s, yes. Those kinds of things are, um, it’s part of the change and how we have to look at things more global. George Nagata: That’s true. Wheeler: And sometimes we get really busy and forget that. But is there any other, um, things that you think that we could be doing to enhance the way that food is prepared or grown? George Nagata: Well, the only thing you could probably grow is specialty crops. Like tomatoes, they grow by the thousand acres. The farmer down there grows five thousand acres of tomatoes. And you can’t compete with people like that. Wheeler: No. So, what’s changing? George Nagata: So, uh, you gotta change the kind. But there’s very little crop that you could put in that, that you could sell to the mass market. Um, and, I don’t know what we can grow. We’ve been studying it for about ten years to see what is profitable. But, at first the blueberry was a very profitable business, but now everybody grows it, and they grow in Mexico, and they are earlier than we are, and they flood the market. And they also come from Chile, and they just flood the market. And that’s why they sell those blueberries so cheap. Wheeler: Right. The fact that we have labor and we have water sources that we are constantly looking at as to how, what we need and what we have to― George Nagata: Well, the trouble is, the workers don’t want to work on the farms, and they― Wheeler: The lack of interest in farming. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 16 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 Alethea Nagata: There’s the, there’s the politics. Some of it’s about the politics. Wheeler: Yes, unfortunately that’s everywhere. George Nagata: All these people they’re coming into the United States. None of them are working on the farms. They want other kinds of jobs. Wheeler: Yeah, yeah, that’s true. Well, there’s a lot of things that we’re trying to work out and I so appreciate your input and to, well, thank you more for the contributions you’ve made. It’s been phenomenal to hear your stories. Is there anything else you have to add, beca―? George Nagata: Right now, I can’t think. [they all laugh] Wheeler: Well, I cannot thank you enough. It’s been absolutely delightful. Thank you again. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 17 2023-05 �ALETHEA AND GEORGE NAGATA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-16 GLOSSARY: American Can (pg.10) Bracero program (pg.12) Camp Pendleton (pg.7) Caterpillar (pg.11) Cherimoya (pg.13-14) Credit Bureau (pg.9) Farm Bureau (pg.12) Freezers (pg.10) Grave, Mr. (pg.8) Heinz (pg.2) Irvine Ranch (pg.13) Kiso (pg.7) Kumamoto, Japan (pg.1) Poston, Arizona (pg.5,7-8) Rancho Santa Margarita (pg.7) Santa Fe Train Depot (pg.5) Smucker’s (pg.10) Tarbutton (pg.8) Tasuke, Wor (pg.2) Tohanga, California (pg.7) Yaskochi, Kane (pg.2) W. H. Ruth Company (pg.10) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 18 2023-05 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Nagata, George and Alethea. Interview transcript, November 16, 2022. Description An account of the resource Oral History of 2nd generation (George and Alethea Nagata) who represent four generations of Japanese Americans contributing to the agricultural industry of North County San Diego, California. During their interview the Nagatas discuss their family history, their forced internments at Poston Relocation Center in Yuma, Arizona during World War II, their lives post-internment, and their working lives as agricultural laborers and family farmers. The Nagatas discuss their operations in detail and muse on the future of farming in the United States. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alethea Nagata George Nagata Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lucy Wheeler Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-16 Subject The topic of the resource Agricultural laborers -- California Agricultural laborers -- Colorado Family farms -- California Japanese Americans Japanese Americans -- Forced removal and internment, 1942-1945 Poston Relocation Center (Ariz.) World War, 1939-1945 -- Concentration camps -- Arizona -- Yuma Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colorado Southern California Yuma (Ariz.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alethea and George Nagata License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NagataGeorgeandAlethea_WheelerLucy_transcript.pdf Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5b0f05f2cf213129ba63269ce29c982c.pdf e70f492593d23d2cab0d1ff78b24ba9c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource White, Alex. Interview transcript, April 8, 2024 Description An account of the resource Alex White is a Chamorro activist who experienced a two week long Chamorro immersion program histed by the Prugraman Sinipok organization. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Colorado, his engagement with Chamorro culture, and his path to learning the Chamorro language. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alex White Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-04-08 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English and Chamorro Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alex White License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2025-07-22_transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Guam San Diego County (Calif.) Colorado Type The nature or genre of the resource text Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Prugraman Sinipok https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c59f8053d23c1136aee09f68020277ec.pdf 6cb14bd4ab0132b818c6e2422620a6fc PDF Text Text ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Jake Peirce: I'm speaking today with Mrs. Alexa Clauson from the Adobe Home Tour – among her many accomplishments – and so I would like to start with just a little background information, if you don't mind. Where are you from? What got you to where you could start with the Adobe Home Tour? Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I'm happy to be here since we only have an hour, I'll try to do the mini version. <affirmative> I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master's degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master's degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son – I had him late in in life – so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn't too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn't have historical societies; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary's in elementary school, there's another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who's just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He's Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I'm like, no, it's not. It must be his wife. <laugh> So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, “Hey, you know, Tom who's collection of books here, you're doing craftsmen?” Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, “We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they're all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.” And I'm like, “[O]kay, Tom, let's do a tour.” And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won't this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5”x11” piece of paper off a copier, and that's kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It's funny, and of course I was thinking, “[O]h, he'll get over it.” You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 1 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don't own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn't. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there's a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I'm probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were – in your role with the state parks – you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, –and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you're saying – what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. <laugh> But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn't as free to do some Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 2 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He's second generation – grew up in Escondido through his business and his family – they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes – although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning – in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That's my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he'll have a different, <laugh> a different take on it. Peirce: <laugh> No, that's absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don't mind. I'm very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved – especially in the beginning – how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren't just like “Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.” This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven't thought about it. Some of it was Tom's personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, “Should we call this one? Should we call that one?” but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, “My friends tell me you're crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?” <laugh> so maybe there's just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I'm really taking a guess at this; I hadn't really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence –the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother's Day home tour – so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn't as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn't just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it'll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother's Day home tour, and I think they're on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn't kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, “Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.” So, I really didn't think about it and it's not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they've seen their house, they get it. They really think it's something special. That's just my take on it. Peirce: Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 3 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, “Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.”? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this – like just a couple of mom and pop <laugh> people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections – is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it ‘cherry picked’ the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views – and many of the adobe homes have incredible views – and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They're bulldozed for these – you know, it's probably not polite to call McMansions; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they've reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There's no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it's almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our “Gee, you, you're not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.” Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather – Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father – they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don't know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 4 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn't, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor – and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere – and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn't the only place where Adobe houses were built – and are built even to this day – as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, “We’re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?” Clausen: Well, I think we would've loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you're a paid staff putting on something like this-Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we've been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society; there's a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we'd like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn’t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do – the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are – but we're restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don't have the facility to make it happen, whether it's personnel or whatever. There's always a friction, there's always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there's the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, “We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?” Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 5 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady – Mary Del May – she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I'll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, “Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That'll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.” So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don't let people stand too long. “Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.” <laugh> We're like, oh, we can't sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don't like, suggestions, they work, they don't, we've tried some things. So yeah, I'd say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you've benefited from, as you've done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that's really been honestly, and correct me if I'm wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it's moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people “Would you have your home on the tour?” They're shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here's some information, which they've developed a little “Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.” And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, “Hey, do you want to be on our tour,” came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It's always a little growing thing. I think you're right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Peirce: Absolutely, and that's incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like “I'd like to learn more about that” or did you fight any struggles? Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 6 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Clausen: You know, we're always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we're lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of... like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out “looky loos”: people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in – for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people's homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested – either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists – they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden – not by any means – but they're there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs; like that's what I'm just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we've tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: “The Romance of the Rancho” where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they're close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we've brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, “You know, we've always heard about Pauma Mission and we've never gone. It was a chance to go out there.” Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there's an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It's fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, “Hey, you're an adobe house, you can be on it.” Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We've had some very simple, honest homes and then we've had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we've had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that's always a consideration, although we've had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we've talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we're really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we've had homeowners who've come back and say, you know, now we're ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I'll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area – that were drivable. I think we had a Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 7 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John – our webmaster – sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you're 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say “Let's just go get lunch. We won't drive out there.” So we've tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven't missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We've had people who, as they've moved forward, say we just can't do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn't get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We've gotten two thirds of the way and we've had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we've had previous homes on the tour again. We've had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they've made changes. They've learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they're not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there's been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I've done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we've gotten really lucky. They're walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they'd come back as we're developing the history of their home, or they'd get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we've had a combination. I'd say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I've been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties – they were told about it by the realtor – the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they're looking at. I'd say I've done a good portion of the research. Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don't wanna say they're not important, right? They are important, they're historical in their own way. But it’s not like Greta Garbo lived there; they're just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I've been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let's say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we've been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we've had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled; they're still there. We've had homes where the windows were yet not removed; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 8 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era – Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized – how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century – we’ve found the Weir brothers and others – they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there's some amber inserted glass that's still from the original; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn't recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in; there's something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we're giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that's usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there's been extensive remodeling, we still recognize – I'll just use Weir for example because they're so well-known – some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven't really had homes that were entirely gutted. We've had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That's amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don't even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer; sometimes it's kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we're always thrilled for the feedback; not everyone's happy on our tours, of course not. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 9 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there's not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it'd be wonderful to run it two days. It'd be wonderful to raise more money, but there's just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people's understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we've done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We'd like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does... there are communities we still think we can keep going. Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you've created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved – this is something that's stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there's a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we'd all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they'll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven't touched on that you'd like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information – he's very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he'll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there's a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that's interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we're out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That's correct. Yes. Peirce: Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 10 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It's been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It's been fascinating. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 11 2022-05-13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clausen, Alexa. Interview transcript. April 12, 2022. Description An account of the resource Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alexa Clausen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacob Peirce Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-15 Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9173acfb4043d98a992ece390b686936.pdf 745685fd9a5c04a10e7e266af852c2c4 PDF Text Text ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Sean Visintainer: Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you for interviewing with us today. Anthony Jackson: Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say. Visintainer: These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: So I can circle back to questions if I have them. Jackson: All right. Visintainer: Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative years. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: Um, where were you born? Jackson: I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 1 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break. Visintainer: Yeah. <laughs>. Jackson: And dad came home in [19]52, and <laughs> Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh, [19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five boys, and I'm the top dead-center. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple weeks ago; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, <Visintainer coughs> spent the second grade in Los Angeles. Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And then back to Texas for the eighth <laughs>. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off <laughs> and didn't go to one single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 2 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship <laughs>, because I knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and, you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. <laughs> Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with patches and torn jeans and all that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That would've been so embarrassing for my family. <laughter> We were, we were poor, you know, <laughs> and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 3 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots. Visintainer: You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your childhood? Jackson: I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was inexpensive and filled with nutrition. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your plate. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back <laughs>. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you know, <laughs>. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 4 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty creative. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that would be the syrup for your pancakes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was worthy of eating. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Except turnips. <laughter> Visintainer: So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-Jackson: Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC [University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I said, what <laughs>, what am I supposed to do with this? Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 5 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that <laughs>, 'cause our meals were substantial. And [inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: As a kid more than anything. Yeah. Visintainer: Did, uh, did you live on bases? Jackson: Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base housing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base. Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base, but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a home in Oakland. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, <laughs> was either for my older brother, if it was small. And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the basement. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 6 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: In bunk beds, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when <laughs>, you know, so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways from-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on bases sometimes. Not always. Visintainer: Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society. Jackson: Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-Visintainer: Could you explain-Jackson: Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all in the same boat <laughs>. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns, like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 7 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um, everybody's employed, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and sit when the national anthem was being played <laughs>, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased. Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know <laughs>. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All right. Okay." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father? Jackson: No my dad, he lived a whole different world. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 8 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942, Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor. And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um, even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother <laughs>, you know, to be one of the hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24 years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 9 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank. Jackson: And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, <laughs>, I'll never forget what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first [Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony Jackson. Visintainer: Yeah. <Jackson laughs> Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And he had kept a house there for quite a while. Jackson: Right. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 10 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston? Jackson: You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that would've been grown-up talk back in those days. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools. Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house, everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal punishment, <laughs>. That's the first time I met that one too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my hand paddled because my writing was so poor <laughs>. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston] because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston. And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 11 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know. Visintainer: So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous? You were-Jackson: Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis, and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is <Jackson gestures>. And then she refused to move. And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus <laughs>, and he left her alone the rest of the ride. She never budged. Visintainer: That's very courageous. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took those words literally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 12 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship, wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's not an automatic. <laughs> I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll see how it goes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind of cool. Visintainer: Nice. Jackson: I'll show you at some point if you want to see it. Visintainer: Yeah, I'd love to. Jackson: Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 13 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock, a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense? Visintainer: Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about <Jackson laughs> weight and backpacks. Jackson: Yeah, right, yeah. <laughter>, I guess, so <laughs>. Visintainer: Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,? Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that. Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load. You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know, so keep it going." Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 14 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military <laughs> speak. Can't help it <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess I had a couple. What was the drugstore? Jackson: You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh, yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-Visintainer: Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents? Jackson: Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in Greenland. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 15 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said, "This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth grade, I moved to Oakland. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Which hardly <laugh>, is just that much better. <Jackson holds up fingers about an inch apart, laughs> But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm <laughs> seventy-three, you know, I'm a happy camper. <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: Exceeded expectations. <laughs>. Yeah. Visintainer: Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea and was he deployed in World War II? Jackson: He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 16 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in the family and he had gone to [Jackson makes chopping motion with hand] four. Different. High schools. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot, scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University, Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers, he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago, but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame. And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong <laughs>, you know, but I'm the only one that made it a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 17 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to be talking to the spouses. <laughs> Visintainer: Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising children? Or were they more informal in nature? Jackson: They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have a spouse they’d have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there? Okay. <laughs> And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so, and I would willingly <laughs> pay for it out of my pocket too. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 18 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible] soldier, sailor, marine. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You're taking care of the family too. Visintainer: It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah. Jackson: All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor, that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no, there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you know? So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It does equate the combat power. Visintainer: I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 19 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish. Visintainer: Yeah. Okay. Um, <Visintainer coughs> excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I, so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-Jackson: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of activities they undertook, and as a support-Jackson: I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in case of, you know, <laughs>, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you know, the car broke down <laughs> the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the spouse that needs help when-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh, East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the people that were left behind. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So yeah, Visintainer: That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 20 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah. Visintainer: <Visintainer coughs> Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: You were working and-Jackson: Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while, at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And, um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, <Jackson makes "I don't know" expression> mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed <laughs> gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! <laughter> So there we were, you know, and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study. My grades shot up <raises hand, laughs>, which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics] major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, <laughs> kind of, every Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said, "Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 21 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real happy. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly. Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier... And, uh <laughs>. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months, I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd gotten-- we were wanting to date. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her. Visintainer: Yeah. Wow. Jackson: We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground. And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way, not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970, "Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" <laughs> I had no idea when <laughs>. I said, "semester break!" <laughs>. Jackson: It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 22 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: <laughs>. That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue." And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and engagement ring." He says, “Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store." <laughs>. So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through <Visintainer laughs>, through grad school, paid for those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or something, but she just told me that. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 23 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree, started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class -- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop." <laughs>, "I gotta, I gotta get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley. I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several jobs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company, and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 24 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame <Jackson holds hands in front of self and widens them>, kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: "US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told her <laughs>. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want me in my house tonight," <laughter>, "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with Kaiser Aluminum & Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for that reserve weekend. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 25 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point. Visintainer: Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea? Jackson: Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid marriage. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer. He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor, not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, <laughs> her sister got it all when he passed away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough <laughs>. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 26 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman something <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. <laughter> But that means certainly you have to be a person of strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior guy that has to execute the plan. Visintainer: And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that judgment, you're very invested in it. Jackson: Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be the presenter, you know? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 27 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah. But you're, you're the communicator." <laughs> "You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?" "Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the most articulate, you're presenting it! <laughs> Just make sure you win!" <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know, you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's not <laughs>, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of the process. <laughs> I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a lot too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I already knew how to make a military bed, <laughs> you know, to inspection standards. <laughs> We did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 28 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 <laughter>. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Boys lined up <laughs>. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-Visintainer: Congratulations. Jackson: Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we, we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have absolutely nothing in common. <laughs> You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore. You know, not quite, but <laughs>, you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities. Jackson: Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And, uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. <laughter> So, yeah. But, uh, Visintainer: Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit towards the end of your military career. Jackson: Okay. Visintainer: And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine Corps, Installations West. Jackson: Right. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 29 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right? Jackson: This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So, which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General [John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.] Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need. You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters. You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it? And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't, they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride," okay sort of challenge you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts <laughs>, you know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 30 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more? Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-Visintainer: What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time? Jackson: Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks that hard. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. <laughs> Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put 'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it. Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 31 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles. So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible] explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together. Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you [inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it. Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference] because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument, but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started buying these vehicles. I mean <laughs>, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch in. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 32 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart, Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, <holds arms wide> it's brand new! There's nothing there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his [Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which, you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United States. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around, meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa, off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd filter it into Somalia. Visintainer: So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 33 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen, but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy, these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. ButVisintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. <shakes head> No way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-Visintainer: When was this? Jackson: This was 2008. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama. So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of 2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie outta this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to-- Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 34 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence 'cause these things are time sensitive, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates. Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it. So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and death decisions. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment." You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a command and all of the, I mean, <laughs> bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me, you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early, you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to go back to Baghdad. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 35 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer, more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative. So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002, my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to one school." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this <holds hands out, palms up>. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said, "Great! <Visintainer laughs>. Then I got ordered overseas <laughs> and left her to build a house. And so I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and then be the last man to <laughs> to, to, arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one <laughs>, you might run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You know, <laughs>, it's random. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 36 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really lived together. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country. Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents. Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton, and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California] was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to build that stuff. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 37 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact. Visintainer: So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice. Jackson: Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-Visintainer: But in some ways it works out really nicely. Jackson: Yeah! Visintainer: To be around family-Jackson: Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This was a stinky old chicken farm. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 38 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Mm-hmm. Jackson: And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program, ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at first, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but, um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know, sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then <laughs>, you know, so why work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said, okay. Man. Was that? <makes gesture like casting a fishing rod> I mean, she hooked me for, she had me set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself, you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing. And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office. You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 39 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen, thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. <Jackson's phone rings>. Visintainer: If you want, I can pause this. Jackson: I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-Jackson: Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed. We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're basically working for nothing. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30 years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at 95, 97%, something like that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, you're, you are working because you love what you do. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 40 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime Academy. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps. And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, <laughs> rather impassioned speeches about why we go to war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and, uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. <laughs> So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West, you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor [Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama. And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 41 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius <laughs>. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put in solar at our house. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that. This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know, and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. <Visintainer laughs> I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh, and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-Border Fields State Park right there at the fence. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 42 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 "Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of panic. <Visintainer coughs>. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours <laughs>. So that was great. I, I did enjoy that. I did not want a new career though. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a political appointee of the governor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers. Visintainer: Yeah. How was it frightening? Jackson: Uh, say your question again? Visintainer: How was it frightening? Jackson: Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks, really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too, you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 43 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But you didn't have that ultimate special trust <laughs>, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it. Visintainer: And at some point-Jackson: I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities. Visintainer: Sure. Jackson: That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting back and forth. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 44 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know <laughter>. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together, that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer. Visintainer: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Jackson: Mm-hmm. So. Visintainer: I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't? Jackson: Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty, pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here <waves hand in circular motion> and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 45 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are unmatched in the world. So you have the finest <waves hand in circular motion>, this geographic area, just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-Visintainer: Eminent domain? Jackson: Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family, and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California. Visintainer: Wow. <Jackson laughs>, that's significant <Jackson laughs>. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they pay taxes too <laughs>. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. <laughs> The old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 46 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I, and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system. If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base, north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still wouldn't have worn a uniform <laughs>. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when you're in there. You know, you're <makes gesture indicating slim>, you know. I think I've grown a little bit rotund since those days, right. <laughs> Gently so <laughter>. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 47 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley and all that, but that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because it, it's like you're dishonoring-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You want me to deny I am a general. Visintainer: That's a huge part of your, your existence-Jackson: When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what, gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star, three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant General. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting, well, let me show you one thing here. <laughs> I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but she's my smartest counselor. <Visintainer laughs>. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family albums, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 48 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-Visintainer: Can I [inaudible]? <Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap>. Jackson: She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your family-Visintainer: Uh-huh. Jackson: Resilience, <laughs> you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go through and then she's found, it's kind of hard; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents were deceased <laughs>. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that, and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad <laughter>? Visintainer: No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter. Jackson: But he never lifted weights. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why. And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 49 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And this is <laughs>. And this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what <laughs> got us back together. But my family goes back to the original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party. And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-greatgreat grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my greatgreat-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each generation is a woman, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother, <points> her; my mother, her; my sister, her right there; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter. Visintainer: Wow. <laughter>. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 50 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls. Visintainer: That's amazing. Jackson: And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he changed his name to George Stevens. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: <laughs> It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge. And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there. Visintainer: I've never been. Jackson: And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee, the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest living. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious. And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is kind of cool. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 51 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past, they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength. Visintainer: Yes. Jackson: You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Are we over time? Visintainer: Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. <Jackson laughs> We've talked for a while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more questions for you, but-Jackson: That's all right. Visintainer: We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-Jackson: That's okay. It was fun to talk. Visintainer: It is a real pleasure to have you-Jackson: Be hoarse the rest of the day. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 52 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. <Jackson laughs> It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-Jackson: Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: There were no real flashbacks, you know? Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: It can happen though. Every now and then, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Oh man. Visintainer: Well, thank you again. Jackson: Okay. Hopefully that was-Visintainer: I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 53 2023-06-08 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jackson, Anthony. Interview transcript. March 7, 2023. Description An account of the resource Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors. In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson finishes his interview discussing his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony Jackson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-07 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Civil rights demonstrations Iraq War, 2003-2011 Military families Mormon Church Piracy -- Indian Ocean Racism United States. Africa Command. United States. Marine Corps Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) 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Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-32 Activists and activism Black experience Community history Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5e839af9501fe838b004cf7e4bd526cc.pdf e0f7a19beae2a07e986c52a10770760c PDF Text Text Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Arely Ramos for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 15th, 2023, and this interview is taking place via Zoom. Hi Arely. Arely Ramos: Hi Seth. (both talking) Stanley: Thank you for being here. Hi. Ramos: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Stanley: I guess to start, we'll just start easy here and just say, can you tell us a bit about your background and how it led you to becoming a social worker? Ramos: Sure. I definitely think it really started when I was a student at San Marcos. I think when I first became employed at the Cross-Cultural Center it really wanted me--I think I just really, I loved it there, and I think it just really exposed me to a lot of different populations and just wanting to help people. And so my sister actually was also a big influence of me, of why I wanted to be a social worker. So after that, after graduating from San Marcos, I did become employed with Family Health Centers of San Diego. And I did a lot of outreach there. So I did a lot of outreach in downtown San Diego where I was able to help support communities and try to get them connected to Medi-Cal services and health services. And then I just felt like I wanted to do more. I was like, I need to get out there a little bit more and support, you know, the community and anyone that I can. So I went back to get my master's degree at San Diego State University where I was a Title IVE recipient (provides two years of support for full-time students who complete a Master’s in Social Work program). So I was able to get I guess like a scholarship to work for the county for child welfare services. So that kind of led me there. And then I was an intern there and I--I was an intern with Child Welfare Services, and then I was employed there for about a year. And then I, there was just a huge need working with our foster families. I loved it, but, you know, the caseload is, it's a tough job (both laugh), and so I kind of wanted to work with the kiddos more one-on-one. And so that kind of led me to where I'm at now, where I'm a district social worker for, actually my own childhood Chula Vista Elementary School district. Stanley: Oh. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 1 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: So I'm able to work with foster students and McKinney-Vento students, so families who identify as being homeless, where I provide case management and counseling services. So I love my job and I love social work. I think just how broad the field is. I just wanna help others. And so that's kind of how my journey led me to social work. Stanley: That's really awesome. That's really cool that you got to go back to your school there. Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: And help people there. (both talking) Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: That's, that's a dream of mine as well. You said that your sister influenced a lot of your, your going into social work. Could you tell me about that? Ramos: Yeah. I think, you know, we are both very similar in, you know, what we like and just, you know, social justice. And I think when I first became employed at the Cross-Cultural Center, my sister was like, “Oh my gosh, go for it.” Like, “That's such an awesome job.” And I think she really pushed me towards that area of social justice and, you know, standing up for others. So she was actually in Title 4-E, the same program that I was at, but at (Cal State) San Marcos. And so she's the one who told me about child welfare services and you know, I learned a lot from her. And so I think--we both were in the same field, and I think it's really awesome to have a family member who understands the field. And so she definitely inspired me to continue that route. And it was just great to have her because we both know, you know, the trauma that comes with it, the secondary trauma we're exposed to, and so it was a big influence. Stanley: Yeah. That's, that's really great. You, you work as a district social worker now you said you, you talked about it a little, but could you tell me what you do on a day-to-day basis? Ramos: Yeah, so I'm smiling 'cause I love my job (both laugh). But I think I just, I always knew I wanted to come back to this job because when I was an intern in grad school, my first-year placement was with the district, the Chula Vista Elementary School District. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 2 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: Uh-hmm. Ramos: And I didn't know that a program like this existed. So I think just coming back to it now, I'm, I'm so happy about it. And, you know, a little bit more of the day-to-day is it--it changes. It really just depends on what goes on, what families we work with. But a typical day, you know, I would have to do counseling sessions with some of my students. And again, I only work with foster youth students and McKinney Vento. So students who identify as being homeless, it can be like living in their car, living with another relative in motel, hotel, shelters, or, you know, on the streets. Stanley: Uh-hmm. Ramos: And so really I provide that support for the students with counseling, but I also do case management with the parents. And so that means referring them out to resources out in the community. Like if I can get them motel vouchers or, you know, tangibles, like sleeping bags or a little crock pot or something that they can cook in, gift cards for food, sweaters, underwear, hygiene products. So it really just depends day by day, because sometimes our database doesn't capture the families when they register at the school district. And so what happens is I really have to work close with the schools. So I'm assigned about six schools in our district. Stanley: Wow! Ramos: Yeah, it's a lot. So there's about fifty schools in our, in our district. It's probably one of the largest in California, but there's a, there's a team of now eight of us. And so we each have about six to seven schools to us assigned. And again, the same populations, but we really just try to support the families because we know if students are not doing well socially and emotionally, they're not gonna do well academically. So we're trying to remove those barriers and really trying to support them in that way, so that they can focus and so that we know we can communicate with the school staff and let them know what's going on. Even providing them bus passes or transportation. We really just want the best for our kiddos. So yeah, that’s a little bit about my day-to-day and I know I actually do have an intern from (Cal State) San Marcos, so I love that. It's kind of like a whole circle (laughs), so it's, it's really awesome. Stanley: Well, that's really great that you're helping out people. That's incredible. If you don't mind me asking, which, which school district is it? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 3 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: Chula Vista Elementary School District. Oh, yeah. So my hometown (both laugh). Yeah. Stanley: Going back to your time at CSUSM (California State University San Marcos), you, you had a variety of positions at the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center). Could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Ramos: Yeah, I remember oh boy, I remember it. Being located at a different section of CSUSM, so I think now where it's at the Student Union, it wasn't there when I had started. It was a little bit I don't even know the names of the buildings, but (laughs), it was a little bit higher up. I don't know what, what it was called. But- (both talking) Stanley: I know at one point it was at Craven and at what point it was, I think at University Hall, I think? Ramos: I think it might've been Craven. Oh, I'm so sorry. I forgot where honestl-- (both talking) Stanley: It's all good. Ramos: But I just remember there being like a big red couch (both laugh), and I remember, I remember we were in transition to getting it moved to the Student Union. And so I thought it was really cool that I got to experience it being there with a big famous red couch (laughs) because we were transitioning everything over to the other office. So I was there for a little bit, but I really was there when it got transitioned to the Student Union. And it was a lot more modernized. You know, our red couch wasn't there anymore, but it was still, it was still home to a lot of the students and to myself. So I thought that was a really cool experience. And I loved the Cross-Cultural Center. I was there every day. Even if I didn't work, if I didn't have a shift (laughs). Stanley: That is, that's so funny. I keep hearing about these red couches (both laugh). Ramos: Yeah. It's famous. I, we should have taken a picture and framed it in the Student Union because it was, it was a comfy couch. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 4 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: Alright, moving on. What motivated you to apply for positions at the Cross-Cultural Center, and what positions did you hold during your time there? Ramos: I think what motivated me, motivated me to apply was just that social justice aspect. Like, I wanted to be a part of something that I could potentially you know, really give to the university. Like as far as creating workshops or I guess just sharing my lens and trying to really create something that maybe was still being developed. Because we didn't really have a full on established, I mean, it was in the making. 'Cause I think (California State University) San Marcos was still developing as a whole as a university, so I just wanted to be a part of something that I can try to help develop. And so I know when I was there, one of the big roles that I had was the Civility Campaign. It was like my baby, because (laugh), you know, there, it wasn't really, there wasn't really a, a huge foundation I think when I had started. So it was really just trying to create something with Floyd (Lai), which was the director and still is the director. But he, he really allowed me to be creative and kind of, you know, go with what I kind of envisioned for the Civility Campaign. So a lot of that was having like monthly, cultural, I don't even know how to say it. Just a lot of different cultural activities or events related to that month. So like Women's Herstory Month, Black History Month, Latino Heritage Month. So it was just a lot of those tough conversations that we tend to shy away from as students where like, we don't really wanna be involved in something that can create that tension or that people don't wanna talk about. And so I try to make it fun, but also have having that difficult conversation to have. And I remember one of the, the biggest events that I did have was it was a Civility Campaign, but I don't remember the name. I'm so sorry, my memory is so bad (Stanley Laughs). But it was, we did an event where we created booths. So we had, at each booth we had an activity. And so we, you know, one of the, one of the things was having the couches there and like picking from the fishbowls and kind of creating questions, difficult questions about how people identify or, you know, what their thoughts were on specific situations. And so, it really opened that dialogue with students to just kind of get out there and really just talk to people you haven't met before, but also learn about their own story and their, their upbringing. Stanley: Well, I actually was gonna ask you about the Civility Campaign, so I'm glad you brought it up. Ramos: Yeah. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 5 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: Would you would you mind talking about it a little more, like describing what, what the, what it was all about and what your role was in it? Ramos: Sure. So I, again, I think, you know, because it was so, it was still being created. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: There wasn't really a huge foundation to it. So I think we were just trying to create it with Floyd (Lai), with Student Leadership. We were really just trying to create those workshops and dialogues again, like I mentioned where we could have students have a safe space to talk about things that, you know, might be--create tension in the world. And so I think at that time we were really just trying to create that safe space for students and to have that dialogue where there is support and they can have a center to go to. And so I think the Civility Campaign really brought a lot of students together with the events that we would have. There was so many volunteers, and I thought it was so awesome because it was a brand new--and we had these bright green shirts. I think now the color is baby blue, so it's a little more neutral (both laugh). But I remember just like, if you saw the bright green, you're like, okay, that's Civility. That's a Civility Campaign. Or, you know, that might be an event through the Civility Campaign. So it, I think it was just a really cool opportunity to bring out different discussions revolving around social justice and what was going on at the time with, you know, everything so (laughs), I think it just really gave us an opportunity to create something new. And I think now they have workshops at the Cross-Cultural Center where the students can come in and there's different presenters, kind of like the little TED Talks. And so I thought that was really cool to see it grow. Stanley: Uh-hmm. That's, that's great. And I, I like that you were able to be a part of that. Ramos: Yeah, it was, it was definitely fun (both laugh). Stanley: Could you, could you tell me about your different positions at the Cross-Cultural Center and how your responsibilities may have changed depending on the roles? Ramos: Yeah. I think, oh, I don't even remember my first one, but I just remember being very involved with the Civility Campaign and kind of creating those events every month. But I also, you know, just the typical day at the Cross-Cultural Center like the, when I wasn't trying to plan events--I think at the Cross- Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 6 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Cultural Center, it was really just a space for me to welcome in new students. So, you know, being at the front desk, welcoming new students, talking to them about what the center was and you know, that this was a safe space for them to be at. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And so I think, you know, there was a lot of, I think at the time we were trying to get a lot of different kind of populations coming into the center because a lot of the students felt like, “Oh, you know, it's only this group that is allowed in here.” And we were like, “No, it's for everyone.” Like, “I know there's only one population that you may see daily here, but everybody's welcomed and just really trying to create friendships with strangers or, you know, students we haven't met.” And I think that was one of the important roles that we had being like the (Ramos makes air quotations) receptionist, I guess you can say at the Cross-Cultural Center. I remember it being very known for like, “Oh, I heard this center, you can print for free here for like essays.” And I was like, “Oh, that's not what, it's just about” (both laugh), you know? So I think just really trying to have those conversations with students and letting them know, it's more than just a place where you can print. And so we really, I think my role was really just to create that safe space for students and to really welcome them there at the center. And introducing them to other students. I know sometimes we would have students come in a lot, but to study or even just hang out on the couches were, which weren't as comfy as the red couches, but (Stanley laughs) they would hang out in there and we would really try our best to feel everybody, make everyone feel welcomed, whoever came in. Stanley: That's, yeah. That's good. What was I gonna say? Oh, yeah. You mentioned that people thought that it was for one group of people. Who were the people coming in most commonly to the CrossCultural Center during your time there? Ramos: Yeah, I think it was--I would wanna say there was a lot of you know, people who identify as being a part of the Asian community at the time. And so I think we--different groups from like Greek Life who were a part of different, sororities or fraternities would come in. And we really wanted to make sure people didn't think, those are the only people who are welcomed here. And I think we were really trying to take that, like, stigma away from our students. And so I think we, I think we did a great job. But, you know, we wanted--we didn't want people to be like, “Okay, you guys can't hang out here anymore.” Like, we're trying to get other people in here. No. It wasn't like that at all. I think we really just try to welcome anyone there. And I think one of my things that I really enjoyed as part of the Civility Campaign was the volunteers that we would have, I would try to, bring them in (both laugh) and kind of just hang out there so that people can see that there's a lot more than what is being seen and represented at the moment. And so I think, I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 7 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 think that was so important, especially because at that time there was also the Latino Center (Latin@/x Center) and the LGBTQ Center (Pride Center) that was down the hall. And so we didn't want it to make it seem like, okay, only if you identify as those populations or ethnicities, like those are the only people allowed there. I think it was much more than that. And we were really trying to get that point across, especially the Cross-Cultural Center. You know, we really wanted to expose any type of student in there. They didn't have to identify a certain way or anything at all. So we really just wanted to open that space for anyone who needed the support or the safe space. Stanley: Yeah. Just all about inclusivity, right? Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: Let's see here. What was a, what was a challenging aspect of your work at the CCC and how did you navigate it? Ramos: I don't know if I ever really feel challenged except for what I just explained right now (both talking). Stanley: Oh that's good. Ramos: Just to make it more inclusive, but I think I had a lot of support from Floyd and just the staff that were there. I don't think I ever really felt negatively challenged. I would say, it's more in a positive way where it helped me develop, like as a person and my own professional development, because we were tasked to sometimes run our team meetings. And sometimes that would make me feel uncomfortable but I'm so grateful for it now (both laugh) because I think that that helped me a lot and built that confidence. And so I don't think I've ever felt negatively challenged. I think it was more of that positive outlook. Because again, like I said, a lot of the students there felt the Cross-Cultural Center was only for a specific type of group where we didn't want that. So I think for me, that might've felt in that challenge in that sense, where I felt like, oh, I have this responsibility. I want people to go in there and feel inclusive. I don't want anybody to feel left out or out, or I want them to use the center. You know, just for those open discussions and dialogues and yeah. Stanley: Yeah. So just getting the message out there (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 8 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: I know during your time at the CCC, there was the Peer Mentoring Program going on-- Ramos: Oh yes! Stanley: Could you tell me about that? Ramos: I love the Peer Mentoring Program! Yes. Oh, I love the Peer Mentoring Program. I think it was so important and I think--I think it was just a great opportunity to mentor those incoming students. I know I was a peer mentor, I had amazing mentees and I loved them so much and I still connect with them. I try to--I haven't in a while, but I still see them, like on social media. I think that's the new norm, right? (laughs) Just seeing them on social media. But no, I think the Peer Mentoring Program was so great, and I think it was just you know, being paired up, paired up with a mentee we were able to kind of help them and guide them throughout their time at San Marcos. So it was a lot of first-year students that we mentored and really just trying to get them involved. I know for all of my mentees, I would ask them like, can you help volunteer with the Civility Campaign? And (Stanley laughs) they all would. So like (laughs), you know, I thought that was such a great opportunity for them because I do feel they were able to meet other students. But even with the Peer Mentoring Program itself, it was just a big family. And I think we all grew so comfortable with each other and just trying to guide them with like, not only their academics, but I think just having those relationships with other people at the school, because a lot of them were either commuting or living away from home. And so San Marcos was our second home. That's where we would spend all of our day at (laughs). And so I think just creating that safety for them and creating the, you know, getting them to know, getting them to feel comfortable enough to get involved at school. 'Cause It can feel lonely, especially if it's your first time and you don't know what you're doing at a university. I know that's how I felt. I was like, “Oh my gosh, what am I doing here?” Like, “I don't even know what I wanna do with my life.” And so, I think just being really open with our mentees and allowing them to feel vulnerable was so important because they are--it's so important just to kind of keep students hopeful and let them know that they do belong here. Because a lot of the times it can feel like they don't. And I think that was so important a part of the program is just having them feel comfortable and also teaching them study tricks or having them feel--like teaching them time management or how they can schedule their day. And so it could be simple things like that, but I think it Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 9 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 was much more than that. I think just having that consistent person in their life is so important because it allows them to feel like they belong. Stanley: You mentioned directing your mentees towards the Civility Campaign. Ramos: Yeah (laughs). Stanley: Were, were there, were there any ways, other ways the mentor program helped? Im--impacted your experiences at the Cross-Cultural Center? Ramos: I'm sorry, can you repeat that one more time? Stanley: Were there any other ways that your experiences with the peer mentoring program impacted your experiences with the CCC? Ramos: I mean, they (peer mentors) would hang out at the center. I know that (laughs), I know they would use that space to come in and just hang out. And I think they really created a lot. They also brought in--I think the more comfortable they felt and were engaged and met other students, they would also bring them into the center. So I think that was impactful because they brought in different groups that weren't necessarily always at the center. And so I thought that was really cool to see for them, because they, at first they were really shy and then they started to really blossom (both laugh) and just bring in other students. So, and it was different students who were involved with other, with different organizations on campus. So I thought it was really nice to see that. And kind of make, it also helped the center grow because we were bringing in like our mentees and people from that program to be there at the center and to attend our events. And so I thought that was really important and it really helped the Cross-Cultural Center grow. In that aspect. Stanley: Yeah. Two, two programs working together. That's nice. Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 10 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: My timeline’s, I don't, I'm not sure if the timeline’s--but was Jenny Ruiz the, the person running it at the time? Ramos: The Civility Campaign? Stanley: No. The Peer Mentoring Program? Ramos: I don't think so. I think it was Floyd. Stanley: Oh, okay. Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: Let's see here. What is, what's your favorite memory from the CCC? Ramos: Oh, I don't even know. I can't have a favorite memory. I think all of them were, I think all of it. I don't have a specific favorite. I think it's just a, I just--my memory as a whole is the Cross-Cultural Center because it, you know, the Peer Mentoring came out of that, the Civility Campaign came out of that. And so I think it was just all my favorite. Like, I just can't stop smiling because I just, I'm thinking about my time there and I had the best time there. It was my favorite. It was definitely my second home. 'Cause I am, I'm from Chula Vista, which is probably like forty-five minutes, an hour, not even far. So I'm just being a baby (Stanley laughs). But I think it was just really, it was my home. I really loved the CrossCultural Center. I still do, but (both laugh) at the time it was, it was so fun. I think I--it was just a really great experience. And when I think about my time at CSUSM, that's what I think about is just my time at the Cross-Cultural Center and the programs that came out of it. Stanley: Lemme ask, did your experiences working at the CCC, did they help you professionally? Or in what ways would they have helped you professionally? Ramos: Yes, definitely. I think I mentioned a little earlier where I remember Floyd would make us run meetings sometimes during our team meetings. And I remember feeling so anxious and being like, “Oh, I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 11 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 don't wanna run a meeting.” But I think it definitely helped me professionally because I-- we're not—at least growing up, you know, I come from a low income community and we're not exposed to that. We're, we don't have those expectations. And so I think the Cross-Cultural Center really helped me kind of get my feet wet (Both laugh). And so, I think even just as simple as running meetings, people are like, “Oh, that's not even that bad.” Like, you know, creating an agenda or running a 30-minute, hour meeting. But to me it was like, “Oh my gosh, I can't do this.” Or you know, I, I had so much anxiety. But I think the more he rotated us to lead those meetings it really exposed us to that kind of professional development. And so I think that really helped me a lot. And I think even just the Civility Campaign, like being in charge of making those events, that was huge for me because I've never done anything like that. It was really, it was challenging, but in a good way. Because it really helped me grow. And I think, you know, even just the computer tech stuff or creating programs, collaborating with other staff members who were part of the student leadership program, I had never done really those type of collaborations. So it really, I think that's where he (Floyd Lai) really planted a seed for me because I think a lot of what I do now helped me, or I guess a lot of what I did then helped me now because now I'm like collaborating with teachers and attorneys and different social workers. And so that collaboration piece was so helpful for me even to today, because I think that was really my steppingstone. And when you do go out into your career, you're exposed to all of that. And I think he (Lai) really helped me grow in that way. Which I'm forever grateful for (laughs). Yeah. Stanley: In a, in a sort of different way. How did the CCC help you academically, in your academic career? Ramos: I definitely think--I think just, you know, Floyd's support as well. I think he really accepted me for like, everything that I was (both laugh) and so--I think just he really, he really took the time to listen to us. And if, if we weren't doing well academically, like I did feel comfortable letting him know, you know, it wasn't the best time for me. I know I had a hard time academically. And I know I had to take a step back away from working at the center because the center, it was my whole life. And so like the Civility (Campaign) kind of took over and I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I'm here for, to get a degree. Not to, you know--that was my priority, but I think I forgot that at one point while working at the center. And so I really had to take a step back. And I remember not being employed. I think I took a break, and then I returned after-- Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: --to work back at the Cross-Cultural Center. But Floyd was always so supportive during that time. And I think even the friendships that I had there. That I created when I was at the center helped me academically in so many ways because you know, I didn't, I--a lot of us would never think, especially for Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 12 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 my community, we're not really super encouraged to go to higher education. And my family is so supportive, so of course they were. But I think the expectations of us in communities like mine, we’re not expected to go and pursue higher education. And so that transition was so hard for me. And I did struggle academically. I'm horrible at tests, even to this day. I'm not a good test taker (both laugh). I like writing. But no, it was a, it was a struggle. But I think just having those consistent people in my life like Floyd and the friendships that I had at the Cross-Cultural Center really helped me academically. Stanley: You mentioned, well, okay, you just said you were formed a lot of relationships through the CCC. Are there any, any friendships or, or yeah. Any friendships that you still keep in contact with today? Ramos: I do. Yes. I haven't in a while. Like I mentioned my mentees, I, I need to reach out to them. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: But I still have connections with them through social media, but it's just comments here and there. But I, they're still so important in my life. And even my roommates--I lived at oh my gosh, is it the UVA (University Village Apartments), I don't know if they still call it that, but-- Stanley: Yeah. Ramos: They’re the dorms room. I met my roommates there and I also pulled them into the Civility Campaign. So (both laugh), I just--anybody I knew, I was like, “Hey, do you wanna volunteer?” So, my roommates were also part of that. But yes, I definitely still keep in contact with my roommates. I actually just saw one of them a couple weeks ago. So it's awesome because you, not just the peers, but I think Floyd, he's--even if I don't talk to him every month or year, I know he is always there and he always writes my letter of recommendation (both laugh). So, so that's always a great thing. We've, he's kind of like followed my journey, which is really cool to look back on. And, you know, he's always been there for those life-changing career moves or, you know, just anything, I know I can always have him to lean on. And we actually share the same birthday, so we always, “Happy birthday!” on our birthdays, so yes, definitely still have those relationships. Stanley: Well, that's really nice. I like that you keep in touch with people even after all this time (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 13 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: Yeah. Yeah. Stanley: The CCC and looks like the, it sounds like the Civility Campaign was a big part of your time at the CCC. How did these, how did the CCC and the Civility Campaign help you understand, well shape your understanding of social justice and advocacy? Ramos: I think in a lot of ways. It really, even for myself, I know I kept saying, it helped create that dialogue where like a lot of students may have felt like it was, there was a lot of tension. I think it really helped me be okay with having those discussions because that's how we grow and how we support the movement of social justice. And so I think for me at the time--oh, I'm so sorry. I keep blanking out on the names, but I know there, I think it was a social justice retreat that the Cross-Cultural Center had or hosted. And I think that one really moved me deeply because it was the first time I really allowed myself to be vulnerable and like even talk about, my own trauma. And so I think I think it really just helped me wanna advocate more for others because I know like what I've experienced you know, there's others who have stories and who are going through a hard time. And so I think just really trying to gain that lens to try to support others. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And I feel like it's helped me to this day because I'm exposed to that every day where, you know, the institutions and stuff are not always on our side. And so (both laugh) and you know, there's just this whole systematic injustice for our families and I see it every day. And so I think it really helped me to, it led me to where I am today which is what I love, what I'm doing right now (both laugh). But I, it's definitely helped me and, and it really guided me towards this path. Stanley: Would you say that the CCC’s approach to diversity inclusion has changed over time? Or has it, or has it more remained the same over time? What would you say? Ramos: I think it has changed, but for the better. I think having those--I know I follow them on social media (laughs), so I see--I keep referencing social media 'cause it's such a big part of our lives now, but I definitely feel like the workshops that I see, and I can't even think of one off the top of my head, but I know they host those, at the Cross-Cultural Center. And I think that's so we--I don't think it was as structured as it is now. And I think that's so cool to see it grow, because I think during my time at least, Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 14 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 we were still in the developing stages of like, “Okay, what do we want the Cross-Cultural Center to be?” And so I think now it's like they have it all laid out. And, I think we were just at that when I was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center, that was still being developed. Like, “What is the program gonna look like? What are we gonna offer students and staff?” And so I think now to look back and kind of scroll past and I'm like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, you know, “They have these programs” like, “Oh, they have shirts.” And I was like, I remember laughing and being like, “Oh my God.” I remember always telling Floyd, “I want uniform shirts at the Cross-Cultural Center” (both laugh) to support the Cross-Cultural Center. And I see that the staff have that now. And I'm like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, just seeing how much it's developed over the years and how much how many, how many students are getting exposed to that. I think is so cool to see. And just to watch the center grow is awesome. Stanley: And I think a good follow up to this would be how do you envision the Cross-Cultural Center continuing to evolve and grow in the future? What role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity specific spaces? Ramos: Ooh. Okay. Can you repeat the, can I take one question at a time? Can you repeat the first one? Stanley: That's fine. Yeah. Yeah (both laugh). How do you envision the CCC continuing to evolve and grow in the future? Ramos: Oh, I think I would love for it to partner up with community agencies or organizations. I think that'd be so cool to see because there is--you know, I know it's very student focused but I think if we can get the students out into the community, and I know they do like the Ceasar Chavez Day there at the center where they go, they have students come out and help out too. But I think if we can connect the center to outside agencies and to support kind of bringing it back to the students' youth. 'Cause I think that's where a lot of the times, you know--in the work that I am in now, trauma really impacts where people are led to. And I think if we can get, if we can do, early prevention work, I think that would be awesome. And what I mean by that is, I think having students be out in the community or helping organizations, it could really help them a lot. Because I think they get to see that change and it's like, “Wow, what I'm doing can really impact youth or, you know, people who may have experienced the same stuff that I have.” But even like fundraising or something for students, and my mind keeps going to foster youth and homelessness because that's where I'm working at right now. The pop--but I think there's a broader population that the students can work with or the center can work with. But I just feel like everybody needs support. And I think--yeah I don't, I really don't know how to wrap this around, but I just, I don't even know what I'm saying, but I think, I don't even know (Stanley laughs). I just lost myself in what I was saying. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 15 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: It's all good. Ramos: I just think the, there's so much potential for the Cross-Cultural Center and it has grown already so much. So I think the work that they're doing, if they can invite even the outside, like the public or I don't know anything. 'Cause they, they offer so many cool things and there's so many speakers that come up and when you go to those events and attend them yourself, you're just, you feel so empowered and you're like, “Okay, what's next? What do I do?” And so I feel like, I think that's the aspect that I'm trying to connect with the communities. If we can, because a lot of the times--when I know the Social Justice summit that I went to, I remember feeling so empowered and being like, “What do I do? What can I do? Who can I help?” Like where can I use, where can somebody use me in a good way for the community? And so you're left with like, “Okay, what's next?” And so I think that next step would be like, okay, let's let's get them out there. Let's help them support the community or some agency in some way. I think would be really cool to see, because you do have that adrenaline when you've learned that, you know new terms or social justice stuff, you kind of get excited, but you're like, what do I do with all this energy (both laugh)? So, that would be cool to see. I hope that made sense. I'm just rambling (laughs). Stanley: It did, it did. I really love your enthusiasm about, about the Cross-Cultural Center and that was definitely one of the more unique answers I've gotten to that question. So thank you much. Ramos: Okay (both laugh). Oh my God, that didn't make sense. I'm trying to tie it back together. Stanley: And the, the follow up to that question is what, what role do you see the CCC playing as it coexists with the identity specific spaces? Ramos: Oh do you mean spaces at the, at the ce--like at the Student Union? Stanley: Yeah. Spaces such as the Black Student Center, the Latin@/x Center, LGBTQ+ Center. Yes. Ramos: I think, you know, it all comes together. And I think it's--I don't want, I think that's why, you know, earlier when I talked about one of the challenges was people only saw like a certain population coming in. I don't like that at all because I feel we all have experienced some type of challenge with the way we identify with ourselves. And I think having those centers is so important because it creates those Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 16 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 safe places for students. But I think they all mesh--they can mesh in some way to like some degree. And I think because, you know, I think--I think it really, I would love to see them all work together. And I think they have in the past. I know we have when I was there. But I don't want people to see it as, you know, like I mentioned earlier, I could only go to the Black student Union if I identify as African American. I think, you know, it is a space for individuals to feel safe at. But I think I would want everyone to feel welcome and inclus--and like included. And I think coexisting with the other spaces is--I mean, it's been happening, it's been going well I think (both laugh). But I think just working more together or, you know, I don't know how it is now. I don't know how the different centers, how they're working together, but I think they can create something so beautiful and create events together where they coexist with each other. And I think that's, yeah, I think I can see that happening. Stanley: So the CCC sort of provides a, a beacon of inclusivity with all these other just sort of like categories (both talking). Ramos: Yeah. Stanley Uh-hmm. Ramos: Yeah. They kind of like intersect in some way, but it is important to identify. It is important to have those centers specific because, I think it allows that safe space for the students, but I think if, I mean, they intersect in some way. Stanley: And this is sort of a, a question I've been asking. Would you, would you be averse to adding maybe an Asian student center or (Ramos laughs) or any other sort of student centers? Ramos: I mean, sure. Yeah. Why not give everyone a center? Yeah. I think it's, I think it's so important because I think there has been a lot of controversy that where people are like, I don't think, I don't agree with, you know, the Latin(@/x) Center having a Latin(@/x) Center or Black Student Center or LGBTQ. But I think it's important to lay out, the different types of I don't even know the word. I think it's just important to, to realize, we have those centers for a reason. Stanley: Um-hmm. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 17 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: And it's because of the experiences that those populations have experienced. Not saying like nobody else has. But I think you know, especially just going back to going back to everything that those certain populations have experienced, they do, it is important to have those spaces because of what was experienced with those populations. And I think yeah, I think--I don't think we should take that away (laughs). And I think that there was a lot of controversy of that at first where it's like, “Oh, well you guys are secluding,” you know, as much as you wanna be inclusive. Like, you're also separating that. But it's like, no, that's not the point. You know, we need to have those, we have those spaces for a reason. So-- Stanley: Yeah. Like you mentioned before, just it's a safe space for-- Ramos: Yeah. It's a safe space-- (both talking) Stanley: Or you can go to, you know, you to, to feel, you know, 'cause lot of the times you look around, there's not many people that look like you around campus. Ramos: Yeah. Uh-hmm. I think that's so important. Stanley: All right. Well we're wrapping up here. I'll ask one final question and that would be, what advice would you give to current or future students who are interested in getting involved with the CCC? Ramos: Oh. Just go there. Go, go show up. No, I love the Cross-Cultural Center. And I think the advice that I would give is just don't--be open-minded and just really--yeah, I'm already starting off with horrible advice. I think I would just say, I think I would just say to, for them to be open-minded and know that they belong and know that they have that safe space. Because they deserve to be there as much as anybody else does. And they will find a home there. So I think that's (the) advice: is just be open-minded and know that they belong. That the space is for everyone. And it'll open so many doors for them. So I think that's something that I would say, and I would hope they literally go (laughs) and show up to the center. Yeah, I think just being open-minded and knowing that they belong there as much as anybody else does. Stanley: Well, thank you for that. And thank you for coming Arely. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 18 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I hope I did okay. I feel like redoing the whole interview (both laugh). Oh my God (both talking). I should-- Stanley: I'm gonna stop the recording here. Ramos: Okay. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 19 2023-11-22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ramos, Arely. Interview transcript April 15, 2023. Description An account of the resource Arely Ramos is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Human Development, Health Services. Ramos worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and was also involved in the Peer Mentoring Program and Civility Campaign on campus. In this interview, Ramos discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center became her second home and how she loved spending most her time at the center. Ramos explains how it pushed her out of her comfort zone and provided her with a safe space to practice presenting and managing a team. The time spent at the center provided her with tools and connections she would use until today. Ramos also discusses her career in social work at the Chula Vista Elementary School District. This oral history was created in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Arely Ramos Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Geneva Martinot Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Civility Campaign California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Child care services Chula Vista Elementary School District (Chula Vista, Calif.) Education, Higher Human rights Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chula Vista (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Arely Ramos License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-15_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b428ee31bab3ba47aa9b2353b1ee70e4.pdf 88bb2f40eee9163df7c45f0134d9cf7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stevenson, Ariel. Interview transcript, April 15, 2021. Description An account of the resource Ariel Stevenson works in the Office of Inclusive Excellence at California State University San Marcos where she works closely with students to increase the diversity on campus. Stevenson has been on campus for 15 years. In this interview Stevenson discusses her impact on campus, including the way she helped get the Black Student Center open through student impact and support. She also discusses her experience as a Black student and CSUSM employee. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ariel Stevenson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource Activism, Student Anti-Black Racism California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center California State University San Marcos, Office of Inclusive Excellence Student success, Black Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Farrell (Penn.) Warren (Ohio) Reading (Penn.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ariel Stevenson Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context StevensonAriel_FordAyana_2021-04-15_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/74d79b268796f9fd4fe70c39672ea551.pdf b89704ddedb683cf46b70c975e8540c2 PDF Text Text BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: All right, so we are now running. Okay. So, this is Judith Downie, curator of the Brewchive® (archive dedicated to preserving the history of the craft brewing industry in San Diego, CA) and History Librarian and Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs to talk about Bonnie and Gunnar's history of Cal State San Marcos and other related pieces of their lives. So, I'm, this picks up pretty well. So we shouldn't have-Bonnie Biggs: Oh, it does. Okay. You want me to sit down? Downie: Well, or let's see. We can maybe put it between the two of you. Okay. You know, because whatever I say, I'll just say it loudly. B Biggs: Oh, okay. Downie: So, yeah, again, this will be Bonnie for the most part, but Gunnar will certainly be jumping in with memory jogs and his personal recollections as well. So, let's start off with Bonnie, your personal history. Where-B Biggs: Okay. Downie: Where did you grow up and some background on your education. B Biggs: Okay. I grew up not far from you (referring to Downie; laughs). I grew up in Vista, California and went to Vista High School. Then I went on to Palomar College, got an AA (Associate in Arts) degree, went to San Diego State, got a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in British Literature after the 1800s. And then onto USC (University of Southern California) for my Master's in Library Science. Downie: Okay. Gunnar, how about you? Gunnar Biggs: Oh. Downie: Where did you grow up, and your education? G Biggs: I grew up in San Diego, California, about a block from San Diego State (University; SDSU). My father was a faculty member in the music department there. And from there I went to North Texas State University in Denton, Texas for a couple of years. Then I took a twentyyear gap, going on the road playing music. And I came back and I got my bachelor's at Cal State San Marcos in Ethnic Studies and Global Arts, after completing my general ed(ucation) at Palomar College. And that's, yeah, that's about it in terms of my education. Downie: Okay. And so where did the two of you meet? B Biggs: Jazz Club. G Biggs: It was the Hyatt Islandia on Mission Bay. (laughs) Downie: Gunnar’s got the details. (Laughs) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend take me to, to hear the French horn player. They usually don't play jazz, and this phenomenal famous piano player, but I liked the bass player. G Biggs: Which is very unusual (laughter) for the bass player to get the nod, you know? B Biggs: Yeah. So that's, and that was in 1981. Downie: Alright. So, let's move on to your professional history, Bonnie. I've sketched out a timeline from what I know, but of course I can be imperfect. So, we'll start with, I know you worked in public libraries-B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Before you moved into the academic library field. B Biggs: Yeah. I started my career at the Encinitas Library. Not the one we see now, the big beautiful one (snapping noise). But on that same site in 1973, and I worked there for nine years. And then I was moved to Solana Beach to become the branch manager for four years. And during that time, met him (Gunnar) and started going to grad school up at USC while I managed the Solana Beach Library. And when I got my master's I started looking around, and that's when I found SDSU North County. (I) was looking for a library (overlapping dialogue). Downie: So, what year would that have been? B Biggs: The SDSU North County? I would've started in 1986. Downie: Okay. B Biggs: And we were-Downie: That was long after they had established that satellite campus (SDSU North Couty satellite campus that officially became CSUSM in 1989). B Biggs: Right. I think it had been around, I think since the late seventies. I'm sure you've got history in the (overlapping dialogue) archives. Downie: Limited history, limited history. I think it's mostly at San Diego State. B Biggs: Yeah. So, it was San Diego State North County, and I was the librarian, and under the wonderful Dick Rush (CSUSM's first executive vice president). Whom we (Bonnie and Gunnar) just saw a couple weeks ago, had lunch with him. And what was interesting, he was less interested in my librarianship as my arts and lectures chops, because I had been doing music and a lot of outreach in the public library system. And he wanted to get San Diego State North County out to the community. We were in Jerome's (furniture store in San Marcos) parking lot, right. So we started having concerts, thanks to Gunnar. We got amazing musicians and put on festivals and, you know, Mexican fiestas and jazz con- you know, jazz. It was like a festival, actually-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: It was a jazz festival. B Biggs: So, so we started doing that. And then of course, I had to be a librarian too. That was always the thing. I had to do both. And that carried over when we (SDSU North County satellite campus) became Cal State San Marcos. Downie: So then you were at San Diego State North County while it was still in Vista (California). B Biggs: It wasn't in Vista at that time, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. It was, it had just started in San Marcos. But I know where that campus was. It was in the old Vista High, where I went to high school. So by ‘86 when I started, they had already moved into the Jerome's lot (building used for the campus that later became that furniture store). Downie: Oh, okay. That’s all very fuzzy in our records, so I've never been too sure. So that helps clarify that. B Biggs: Sandy Punch (retired CSUSM administrator) might be a good one to talk to. In fact, I have lunch with her this month. Yeah. Downie: Tell her I'm hunting for her. (laughs) B Biggs: I will, I'll do that. She'll love it. Downie: Okay. So, you were there for the transitionB Biggs: Oh, boy. Downie: To San Diego State North County. So, you never actually worked at San Diego State Libraries? B Biggs: No, San Diego State North County only. But I will tell you there, there were a couple of librarians at the main campus who were my mentors and who helped me make that transition, because it's a different world andDownie: From public to academic. B Biggs: Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Philip White comes to mind. He was a very, very good friend. And he even came up a couple of times. Just having to do with working with faculty, developing the collection. The trick was the faculty was changing because they were starting to phase out North Count-- Well, they were solid for a while, but we were bringing in Cal State San Marcos faculty. So at one point I was reporting to two deans. When they hired Marion (Reid), she became my dean of the library. But I also was reporting kind of to Pat Huckle, who was the dean of San Diego State North County. Whom we just saw last week. We took her to lunch. So I stay in touch with the, these wonderful leaders that I got to, to work with. Downie: Okay, so you didn't have to move San Diego State North County or CSUSM to the Valecito site, Jerome's (Bonnie affirms) West, as we all call it. Because it had already moved. Transcribed by Aaron 3 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 But what sorts of, I mean, you were answering to two deans (Bonnie affirms) at the very least. But there must have been other challenges and opportunities in this whole transition from being a satellite of San Diego State University to its own freestanding Cal State San Marcos. So, what do you remember of that? B Biggs: I remember that it, I didn't know that much about academic politics at the time, but I remember there was a lot of it. And (I) started to figure out what the landscape was and just treaded very carefully, made friends with a lot of the faculty. David Whitehorse comes to mind, he’s one of my best friends there. He was San Diego State North County. And then beginning to get to know the founding faculty at Cal State (San Marcos). I remember there was a part of us at San Diego State North County who didn't want the change. We were thrilled that the state wanted to have this new university. We just had a nice little comfy warm tight-knit organization. And so, it was chaos for a while. And bringing Bill Stacy (founding president, CSUSM) on, luckily he and Dick Rush got along pretty well. As they also transitioned from one to the other. G Biggs: Didn't they fast track the change over? It was, it happened before people had-B Biggs: Very quick. G Biggs: --predicted. It was one day they were a satellite, and the next day they said, “We're about to move to the new campus as soon as it builds in.” You know, so. B Biggs: I'm trying to think who the governor was at the time that came down. G Biggs: Yeah. It was like, it was a governor's decision to go-B Biggs: And signed the paperwork. Downie: Was that (George) Deukmejian? (laughs) B Biggs: It wasn't, no. Wasn't (Bill) Craven. I mean, it was, was it a senator? Anyway, some, some, I have a photo in one of these somewhere of-Downie: Well, we have a signed certificate, I think from (Governor) Gray Davis. B Biggs: That might, that was probably it. Yeah. Yeah. He would've been the governor then. Yeah. So, that was when things got a little bit strange because we started to phase things out at North County and move. And that's when we took over the other building across the street. And the library moved into that space. Marion coming from, 'cause there, there's a question here (laughs). How, you know, she didn't know what to call me or what to offer me as a position because, to have called me Assistant Dean, that implies tenure and, you know, academic credit that far exceeded what I had at the time. I was just, you know, a public librarian learning to be. So she, but generously, I think it was generous, she gave me the title of Assistant to the Dean. And of course I was that, I assisted her on many things, head of, then it became Head of Public Services, or (unintelligible), it was called Coordinator for Public Services. They call it patron, is it now, it's not public services-Downie: User services, (overlapping) what we call it. Transcribed by Aaron 4 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: User services, I like that. Yeah. And then later Arts and Lectures (curriculum-linked events produced by CSUSM College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences). So there, there I had one business card with three titles on it, which I think a lot of people did at that new university. Downie: Yeah. We all had to do a variety of jobs. And we were not in the, centralized or no, I forget what the term is, but where you just kind of did things. It got done, it got taken care of, and it's gotten so much structure-B Biggs: Crossing lines-Downie: Permissions and paying for everything. Where it used to just be, it got done and somebody covered the cost. (Bonnie affirms). But it does seem like there would've been a lot of long hours and obviously confusion as to lines of responsibility, but it got worked out. B Biggs: It really did. Downie: Seems like. B Biggs: And luckily, on one end, we had Dick Rush who, I got to tell him at lunch a couple weeks ago, what a wonderful leader he was. He constantly took time out, when we didn't even have time to go to the bathroom or breathe and gather us around his desk or somewhere in the library, and just let us know how wonderful we were and how much our work was appreciated. And what that does, you know, it gives you a shot in the arm and you just keep going. And Pat Huckle was the one, again my other dean saying, “Bonnie, at the end of the day, it's just gonna be a dead librarian if we keep this up.” (Gunnar laughs) Meaning she got--I told her about that the other day. (Laughs) It, she gave me the permission to place some limits in my ability to do all the stuff we were required to do. We were thought to be doing. And I don't know that that slowed me down a whole lot, but-Downie: Probably not. B Biggs: Yeah. G Biggs: Well, Dick, Dick told you the library is the heart of a university. (Bonnnie affirms). So that's where he came from. Initially it was like, build this library and you will have a successful university. So that kind of put the weight on your shoulders. (Bonnie affirms). “Okay, I gotta build the heart.” B Biggs: And the fact that he wanted the arts made such a difference in that tiny little Jerome's library, bringing the principal brass of the San Diego Symphony because of his (Gunnar) connections, for a concert. And Peter Sprague (jazz guitarist) out in the parking lot. It just, it put us on the map, in a tiny way. Because people saw, that there, there actually was a campus there kind of (laughs). Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Yeah. So even years later, I was at a conference and somebody said, “Oh, San Diego State North County.” I'm like, “No, we haven't been that for a number of years, thank you very much.” B Biggs: Yes, yes, yes. (laughs). Downie: But you know, if you're not right there in the thick of it, you didn’t realize-B BIggs: It was 1989 when I think, I mean, that's a date that really sticks out, I had been there three years. And 1989 was when we were signed-Downie: When Bill Stacy came in and-B Biggs: Right. Downie: Brought in the founding faculty and-B Biggs: Right. And that's-- (overlapping dialogue) Downie: --things started really changing. B Biggs: Have you gotten all the founding faculty? I'm assuming you've-Downie: Marion got oral histories from-B Biggs: Oh, good. Downie: --I think everybody, and it would be nice to go back to some of them and, get a looking back now, what you saw then versus what you're, what you’ve-B Biggs: In retrospect. (overlapping dialogue) What, yeah. Downie: In retrospect view of that, that could be extremely interesting. But so, you were there to move into the permanent campus on Twin Oaks Valley Road. And that was while I was not on campus. That was during my period of exile, as I call it, after I got my master's. And I went down to United States International University. So that's, there's a chunk of campus history that I didn't personally experience-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: How long were you-Downie: I was there eighteen months. B Biggs: At, at USIU. Downie: Yeah. B Biggs: Okay, yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: And so, and of course-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: I forgot that. Downie: --being that the position I was in as a staff person when I left, I was not involved in planning or any of that sort of thing. (Bonnie affirms), I'm sure you were, I know Marion certainly was. Way-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: Oh yeah. Way deep. (overlapping dialogue) Downie: Way, deep, deep, deep into it. But you certainly had a lot of input as well. So, what do you remember about running up to moving onto the permanent campus at Twin Oaks Valley (Road) and then the move? Other than we had to borrow book carts from everybody, every library in the county. B Biggs: Yes. I remember that. Of course, Marion was much more in charge of that and involved. I think I was doing more hands-on and working with a few staff. We had to fill those book carts and get things moved into the library. I will say a major memory of that was that we were not invited to the groundbreaking. I just have to go on record to say that. And there were many people who had been doing that kind of work, high level work. You know, like Marion, she was there. But those of us who helped build the foundation of that university--San Diego State North County--were not invited to the groundbreaking. So that, that's something that's one of the few bitter kind of, “Really?” (Downie affirms) Kind of thing. Maybe Dick was, yeah, I'm sure he went because he had transitioned-G Biggs: There's a picture, there's of all the shovel people-B Biggs: All the shovels. No (San Diego State) North County people. So that was interesting. (Downie affirms) And it is kind of a blur. I mean, all of the nuts and bolts and physical work. I just remember it being a lot of physical hard work, getting--Marion probably was up here (referring to planning and coordination of the campus move) more than, you know, the moving of the materials. And-G Biggs: They got somebody local that had a moving company to help move the collection, box them up-B Biggs: And I, I think Jim Hanson may have helped. G Biggs: Jim Hanson was on there, but I forget who it was that had trucks. He had a moving company, right? B Biggs: I don't remember that. Downie: Well, they were, they were flatbed trucks with board sides, and we had all those book trucks. And the day we moved the collection, it was raining. So we had to wrap all the book trucks in plastic-B Biggs: I remember that now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: To move them into Craven Hall, which is now the Administration Building. B Biggs: Right. Downie: And then of course, the ceiling was leaking, even though the books were on the fourth floor, we didn't have our shelving yet. So, the books were sitting on the floor. (laughs) B Biggs: You have more memories of that-G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: --than I do. That's interesting. I, yeah. Downie: Well, again, you had other responsibilities that you were running the arts programs and, (Bonnie affirms) you know, everything. And (overlapping dialogue) areas of responsibility. B Biggs: And all the Indian stuff had started by then too because, you know Whitehorse, the way it started was David Whitehorse (School of Education Emeritus faculty) walked into my office. He was standing as State North County faculty and said, “The plan of cooperation between the county library system and the tribes is dissolving, they’re--what can you do about it?” Like, “How do I (Biggs) know what to do about it?” (Downie laughs). So, I had started going out and working with the tribes at that point. We had American Indian Storytellings-G Biggs: Storytelling. B Biggs: --we had the American Indian culture--we couldn't call it a powow--culture fair, inside and over at the Red Barn (Williams Barn, San Marcos, California). So I was kind of doing a lot of that stuff at the same time. That's why I don't have really clear memories of the actual movement of the books. But-G Biggs: That’s where you met Uncle Henry (Rodriguez; Native American water rights activist; instrumental in preserving indigenous California culture) was at the, at the storytellings. B Biggs: Yeah. He was, yes. G Biggs: I see that down there, yeah. Downie: So that really kind of segues beautifully into the next session, which is your work with the local tribes, the California tribal libraries. So, how did you actually become interested in this particular part of our population? B Biggs: Yeah. Well, David Whitehorse told me I had to (combined laughter). I mean, when he said, when I looked at the plan of cooperation it was a plan, very loose plan that the San Diego County Library system, which is thirty-three branches from Otay Mesa to Fallbrook. And the system I came from, they had a plan of cooperation. It just meant that they would do some interlibrary loan and maybe occasionally go out and help, you know, people with collection development. But it all of a sudden was dissolving. And so, I'm trying to think of the timing. It Transcribed by Aaron 8 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 was at a time, one of those times when the budget was going to hell in California. So, they were pulling funding back and staffing ability to go out and even do the little bit that they were doing. So, David wanted to know what I was gonna do about it. So, I did start going out to some of the local libraries: Pala, Rincon, Pauma, La Jolla, San Pasquale, just the local, the most local (to North County San Diego), not south. There were no casinos for many years until after I started working with them (California tribal libraries). So, it was more just about getting an assessment of who had what. Some of them had combination museums and libraries, which is not uncommon on most tribal land. So, I just started developing. I would say, and I tell people this, it took seven years to get totally trusted and implanted into the culture. You don't just go out and say, “Hi, I'm a white librarian, I'm gonna help you out.” (Laughs) It really did take years and years and years. But doing things like “Prez to the Rez,” taking the (university) presidents out there developing tribal communities, task forces, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that, it was that kind of stuff that gained the trust of the tribal communities. And the big part of that, ultimately, first it was, do something because the library system is abandoning them. But the more important thing was we need to get these Indian students to the university to trust coming to a university. Lots of history on that, you know, with what we did to native people in boarding schools. So, it really did take a long time to gain the trust, and the numbers show now that our native population at the university is one of the highest, last I looked, in all the CSUs (California State Universities). So, and we were the first to have a tribal liaison. And it was Tish (Tishmall Turner). No, it wasn’t (laughs). You saw that. That was a-Downie: Well, this is a problem with a lot of the firsts that we've done on the campus is nobody stopped to think, this is the first we need, we need to record this somewhere. And responsibilities have moved from department to department. From unit to unit. Across. And then we've had changes in presidents, changes in everything. B Biggs: Deans and-Downie: So after a while, yes, it gets lost. B Biggs: That's why archives are so, I mean seriously, it's so important, especially with a university this young. You got, I'm glad Jen (Fabbi) is moving there (to CSUSM’s Special Collections). I mean, you need all the help you can get, and you've got an opportunity before it gets too far down the road to capture all this amazing history. Downie: Cause we've already lost some very key players. That, you know, you can't go and interview them now. Unfortunately. B Biggs: No. No, I know. Downie: So, yeah. So it's become, becoming more critical all the time. B Biggs: Yeah. Did somebody, I'm sure they did. They must have interviewed Dick Rush at some point. So-Downie: Nobody's interviewed Dick Rush yet. Transcribed by Aaron 9 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Wow. Downie: Yeah. No, we, we have his papers. I mean, he doc-B Biggs: He did. That's right. Downie: We have more paper from Dick Rush in boxes in Special Collections than from anybody else. G Biggs: Do you (Bonnie) still have your yellow legal pad thing where Dick had (overlapping dialogue) bullets for what, what he wanted you to do? Handwritten. B Biggs: We’ll have to find that. But, you know, we're gonna go up mid-April, just for a twonight trip for our anniversary, our fortieth anniversary. And we're gonna see Dick probably, we'll probably stop in Camarillo (city in California). And should I ask him if he is interested in being interviewed? Downie: Yeah, please. B Biggs: Okay. That would, wow. I mean, because beyond those boxes, this is somebody-Downie: Oh, there's so much more. B Biggs: Somebody who really, really knows the story. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, because he was there from ground zero, basically. B Biggs: He was a British literature professor at (Downie laughs) San Diego State. Downie: Those Brit Lit people, I tell you. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Downie: So I know that you have mentioned to me over time that you went, you know, when you were first working with the tribal libraries, that you would go to tribal councils and you would just sit there and just listen. (Bonnie affirms) And, you know, speak when you were spoken to or invited to speak, things like that. But where did you meet Uncle Henry (Rodriguez)? B Biggs: I think at a powwow (a social gathering celebrating Indigenous American culture). G Biggs: Or a, well, there's a picture of him at the Red Barn with Lee Dixon (Pauma Band of Mission Indians). AndB Biggs: So it would've been the American Indian-G Biggs: Find that picture-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: --culture fair, we couldn't have powwows yet. And David (Whitehorse) helped organize those. So that was when we were still San Diego State North County. And he (Rodriguez) was always invited as an elder to give the blessing. And he did that for us until the day he died. But commencements and powwows, so met him there. I'm trying to think how I got close to him. Just got close to him. Downie: He was a very astute man. (Bonnie affirms) He probably saw your empathy and connection. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And he knew I was working with the tribal libraries. I'd come, I'd go to the La Jolla Reservation, which is way up Palomar Mountain. They had like a room with- so many of these libraries all around the country, really. Or a couple of shelves of books. One of them at Manzanita (Reservation of the Manzanita Band of the Kumeyaay Nation), I think was a bookshelf in a fire department. That was their library, you know, and people took me in and said, “Here's our library.” And yeah. So, Henry (Rodriguez) knew I was doing that work, and yeah. He knew I--to say in Luiseño, I had a good heart, I guess is. Downie: Okay. And you've already talked about bringing the powwow to campus, but it was the American Cultural Fair. Before the American Indian Cultural Fair. Before it was actually a powwow. What were the mechanisms by where it could become a powwow? B Biggs: Yeah. It had to be, of course outside, and with a number of different things, different dancers, different singers. Bird songs are important for local culture. So it, you saw a couple of them, I'm sure. It's huge. It's not something that you hold inside. So the parameters are really about dancers and music and a processional. So Henry (Rodriguez) would often, with me and Whitehorse, lead the procession. There's a blessing of the field. So, probably an Indian person could tell you more what the specifics were you, you would have a--what was Randy Edmonds (American Indian Tribal Leader)? Barry, what was Randy Edmonds? G Biggs: Randy Edmonds was the MC. B Biggs: He was the master of ceremony. So, soDownie: Randy’s last name? B Biggs: Randy Edmonds. Downie: Edmonds. B Biggs: And he's still alive. I just heard something about him the other day. So, there were just a whole bunch of things. The idea of the American Indian Culture Fair was to at least get people used to it. So there would be a prayer and a blessing at a table. Got pictures of that stuff going with Henry. But, and I think they could do like a few small bird songs and maybe a little, you know, dances. But, they would have booths. And it was just a mini powwow is the best way to describe it. Powwow didn't happen till we moved to the campus. And we had that lower field, which I think is soccer now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: It's used a lot for soccer, but I think it could be used for other sports as well. Yeah, it's right down there at the, on the corner of the entrance on Twin Oak Valley Road. B Biggs: Right. We always drive by when I'm on campus, “There's the powwow field.” That was huge. And I don't know if you know there's an Indian store over here (referencing a picture). They just closed or they're moving this. Downie: Oh, they closed. B Biggs: Yeah, but we were in there and recently just to help with any, you know, buying things. And the guy said, I said, “Do you remember me? I,” and he goes, “Oh yeah. Was (referring to the CSUSM American Indian Cultural Fair) the best organized powwow ever.” Because they went to all the tribes. Downie: Oh, I'm sure they did. B Biggs: I said, “It's because a librarian organized it.” (laughter; overlapping dialogue) Librarians-Downie( Exactly. You put a librarian on it, it's gonna be organized. B Biggs: I know. He was. Yeah. So, they were always there and selling things. What were you trying toG Biggs: I was trying to find that picture of the lineup. B Biggs: The perfect processional, yeah. G Biggs: Lee Dixon, who's passed away. Jane Dumas. David Whitehorse, Uncle Henry. You (Bonnie Biggs) and somebody else, they're all lined up. But that was in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Downie: We have a few pictures of the Cultural Fair, what was going on in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: And-G Biggs: Yeah, Randy Edmonds charged me with carrying Carol Bonomo (CSUSM Administrator Emeritus) out of the arena. They had just smudged blessed the arena, and you weren't, you weren't to enter the arena after that. And Carol comes across there and Randy goes, “Go get her and get her out of there.” So, I had to pick up Carol and-B Biggs: Small, she's small. (overlapping dialogue; laughter) G Biggs: I know. And carry her out the arena, kicking and screaming. She tells that story all the time. Transcribed by Aaron 12 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: All the time. Yeah. She loves that story. G Biggs: And I said, “It's not me! I was told to do this, so I do this.” B Biggs: (laughs) It was, yeah. G Biggs: But there's certain protocols for the, like that. You don't enter the arena after it's been blessed and stuff like that. B Biggs: And I don't, I can't even remember how many years it went on, but after many years I think I was starting to think about retirement, but the students took over. Downie: Yeah, the American Indian Student Alliance. B Biggs: And it didn’t-Downie: They did it, I think, for two years. And then being that the student population changes, you don't have the continuity that you have-B Biggs: Exactly. Downie: --of actual employed staff and faculty to lead something. I mean, I've seen that happen so many times with the student organizations. They'll be there for a year or so, and then the person who was excited and found it, graduates. Good for them. Yes. But then they haven't developed a line of succession either. (Bonnie affirms) And then something else will pop up. But-B Biggs: Yeah, that was unfortunate. And people were sad about it. And I think right after that, either I was going up for tenure--that's what it was, Whitehorse and I finally said, “You know, we better do this tenure thing.” And so suddenly I started publishing, you know, in a flying hurry. I'd done some, and then that's what it was. Yeah, we both had to step down. Downie: Tenure becomes quite the time suck. B Biggs: I'll never forget Dick (Rush) telling me, because I was just being a librarian, I didn't understand the whole, again because I wasn't really part of yet of the faculty. Downie: Well, we didn't have a faculty mentorship program that we do now. There was really, you were just doing what had to be done. And hopefully somebody told you. B Biggs: All of sudden, oh, you're supposed to write about this. Okay. And that was another thing, is doing all of the publications I did, all had to do with tribal libraries. You have to be careful, you know, and respectful, and vet things. And so that was, that sort of added to the lengths of time to get things done. Downie: And so, as part of your scholarly work of course, was the California Tribal Library Survey, which that was, was on a sabbatical, right? Transcribed by Aaron 13 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: You know, the, the strange thing was the first sabbatical was Africa, right after I got tenure. And then the State Library of California paid my--paid the university, gave Marion money to cover me while I did that survey. The second actual one was going around and doing the New Mexico Pueblos. So that was my sabbatical. The second one. Yeah, the first one was right, you know right after you get tenure, you get a sabbatical. That was Africa. And-Downie: Well, now you can apply for a sabbatical and hope you get one. (laughs) B Biggs: Hope you get one. Exactly. And the, and the second one, and I'm trying to remember how long afterwards that was. G Biggs: What, Africa? Downie: It's usually (overlapping dialogue) every six years-B Biggs: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And then, but the, the census and needs assessment for the State Library of California was just a thing that they asked me to do because I'd become involved in, so that took us all the way up to a sheet. Yeah. So-Downie: And that was 2001, 2002, as it says on the spine, a very fat binder. (laughter) B Biggs: Yes. Of a very fat binder. And he (Gunnar) was on that one. I have no sense of direction. So, Gunnar drove me. Not only there, because a lot of the you know, reservations are really way out there and not very well signed. You see the signages, “Go three rocks up past the, you know, the oak tree and turn left.” Same thing with going around to the Pueblos in New Mexico. And I went on that trip because Lotsee Patterson (librarian and founder of the American Indian Library Association), my mentor, said that the best tribal library system in the country was within the pueblos of New Mexico (referring to the physical establishments of the Pueblo peoples). And that's because she helped guide them along for decades. And it was an amazing trip. Downie: And how did you meet Lotsee? B Biggs: At an AL- AILA, American Indian Library Association meeting. And we rode in a taxi somewhere, and I remember-G Biggs: Chicago. B Biggs: --remember thinking, “Oh my God, I'm in a taxi with Lotsee Paterson.” (laughter) And she was the most likable, lovable, again, we talked to her just a few weeks ago. She got her materials to Sean (Visintainer; Head of CSUSM Special Collections) for, yeah. But she's the one, I mean, everything really centers around her. And we just became friends and I guess kind of a, she was kind of a mentor and a not in a real strict way but she, just by way of being around her she was mentoring me. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Well, I think that's a very much cultural way is just simply organically as it happens, you pass your knowledge onto someone else rather than the formal academic environment that you know, we commonly think of. G Biggs: She would take the students on a summer trip to the pueblos. And we would, we tagged along on one of those. So, in desert summer in New Mexico with our dog in the car and everything, but we would go to library to library, and she (Patterson) would know everybody. Down to the tribal policeman that tried to throw us out once, you know. “How's your cousin doing?” And he'd look at her and he'd go, “Oh my goodness, go ahead.” You know. (laughter) But without those kind of inroads, you don't just walk into a-B Biggs: And she helped me get entre into all of the, all of the Pueblos who are just phenomenal people. Yeah. Downie: Lots of, lots of accomplishments there. So that will bring us onto your other career accomplishments. On campus, I know that you were the first librarian faculty to serve as the Academic Senate chair, which was a pretty big deal because there weren't too many of us librarians (Bonnie affirms). G Biggs: --weren’t Chair though. Downie: Number one (laughs). B Biggs: Right. There weren't, and, but the deal was, this is very strange, and I have to find it. I'd been senate vice chair for maybe four years, and I think by the time Bud Morris (Dr. G.H. “Bud” Morris; professor of communications and former Academic Senate chair) was ready to step down, I said, “Okay, I will go ahead and do this.” But I stepped out. I didn't, I ended up not serving as chair. And it was because I was getting ready to retire. I think that would've been 2004. And Karen (Haynes; President of CSUSM 2004 to 2019) had just said to me, “Will you be tribal liaison?” So, I ended up not serving. I think I was the only person who was voted, and also the only person who ever said, “I'm not gonna do it.” And that was, that was a big stink. And even Alex Gonzalez (former CSUSM President 1997-2003) was pissed at me (Gunnar laughs). I hated--didn't care for him. (laughs) But no so I didn't, but I served certainly for, I don't know, fifteen years on the executive committee and then four years as vice chair. Ick. Ick. Downie: That was certainly long enough. But, that's what people had to do. I mean, there weren't that many people to serve in positions. Patty Seleski (CSUSM Professor Emerita) was, what, History Department chair for twelve years? (Bonnie affirms) Because she just said, “I'll take it on, because the junior faculty need to be able to work and get their tenure.” (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: And do their research, and yeah. Exactly. Downie: So, we made sacrifices in some ways. B Biggs: We just talked to Pat (Seleski) last week when we went down. She's almost blind now, but she said that she was senate chair for three years straight. I don't think we've had anyone do that many years straight. Have we? Transcribed by Aaron 15 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Somebody recently did do I think two terms. B Biggs: Okay. Downie: But that was when it was one-year terms. Now it's become a two-year term. B Biggs: Has it? Okay. Downie: Glen Brodowsky (CSUSM Marketing Professor) is chair right now. B Biggs: Glen is, and he was always on (academic) senate with me. (overlapping dialogue) I love Glen. Downie: So, but any other firsts that you did? I mean, you certainly started the Arts and Lectures program. You certainly brought, you know, the tribal collaboration and partnerships to campus. But what, what other sorts of things? B Biggs: Firsts? G Biggs: Tribal liaison. Tribal Liaison. B Biggs: Oh, the tribal liaison I think is really important because, there were none anywhere. And so, establishing those relationships in the tribal communities task force, sort of paved the road. You read that history that I corrected that went to Patricia, Patricia (Prado)-Olmos. So, I think that that's probably, if I were to say the one thing I was most proud of, is that we established a position on campus that was about serving native communities. And then now that, I understand that they've got a couple in other CSUs, they have something. Maybe not the exact title at SDSU. And then the UCs (Universities of California) got a couple now. But we didn't have, there wasn't anyone. And yeah, I didn't like the fact that it was forgotten that there was someone who was before Tishmall. But getting Tishmall there as a local Luiseño tribal member was so important. Getting Joely Proudfit (Department Chair and Professor, American Indian Studies Department) to come to campus was, that was amazing. You know we lured her away from CSU San Bernadino, and to get a couple of local tribal people, really what that does is it opens the door for native students. I mean, we started that by having our tribal community task force. We go out to the rez, “Prez to the Rez”. We do things out there to bring people in. Untrusting native students and families started to see that we were a safe place for them to come. But the tribal liaison position, probably I would say, I would think the most important thing that I accomplished. Downie: Would you say, if I remember correctly, San Diego County has more tribes than any other county in California? B Biggs: Federally recognized. Yeah. Downie: Federally recognized. Okay. Would you say that was maybe one of the reasons that we could be the first in that? Because-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 16 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I would think so. Downie: --there was just a larger population to work with. B Biggs: We had a larger population, and we had, we were young enough. Karen Haynes was one hundred percent behind it. I was on her search committee, and I got to ask one question, each of the faculty members (got to ask one question). And mine was, “We have nineteen federally recognized tribes in the county of San Diego. What do you think you would like to do, if you became president, about that?” And she said, “First of all, I would talk to people who know about it, and know what the needs are, and want to meet with the native people.” And I was like, “You're hired.” Downie: Ding, ding, ding, ding. (laughter) B Biggs: You're hired. So it was really having a leader on campus who was one hundred percent behind doing this work. And she came to a number of our, before we had NAC (Native Advisory Council), came to a lot of our tribal communities task force meetings, just to hear--that was getting people from business, you know, you think it's- Who, Raj (Dr. Rajnandini, CSUSM Professor of Management)? Is Raj still there? Downie: I believe so, yeah. B Biggs: And Glen Brodowsky. Folks that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with this stuff all had input and all had ways to take their resources and their knowledge base out to the reservation. Or their advice to the reservation to help-Downie: And NAC is Native Advisory Council? B Biggs: Yeah. And that, that evolved. You know, so Wendy Schlater (member of the La Jolla Band of Luiseño, elected vice chairwoman of that tribe in 2019) from La Jolla rez, Henry’s rez, and I went to President Hayes and said, “We need-“ you know, there was at the time what they call Latin- Latino Faculty and Staff-G Biggs: LAFSB Biggs: LAFS. G Biggs: Latin American Faculty and Staff. B Biggs: And then they had just started an African American council. So, I thought, you know, we should--especially because we have so many tribes in the area, and it was time. And they're still meeting. I'm not going anymore. But, but it's wonderful that, that they are meeting and that, and I believe President Neufeldt (CSUSM President Ellen J. Neufeldt, appointed in 2019) is behind everything I've worked with her on having to do with the tribes. She's very-Downie: It dovetails nicely with her social mobility focus. B Biggs: Right. It does. Yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 17 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Okay. So-B Biggs: Oh, another first on campus was bringing therapy dogs. Downie: Okay, well-G Biggs: It's down here. B Biggs: Oh, is it on here? (laughs) G Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) I see it right at the bottom there. B Biggs: Oh, is it really? G Biggs: Right at the bottom. Downie: But no, that's I think perfectly. That's, that's a wonderful first. Yeah. I think that's been done, you know, like in the county libraries of the public libraries, there's been the reading to dogs. So, it's not like it was completely foreign to people that dogs could be used in a very positive way. Other than just simply assistance animals. And there's nothing simple about that. But you know, the therapy dogs and the comfort or support dogs and things like that. I haven't seen a support alligator on campus yet, thankfully. Or a support snake. Any, any kind of reptile. Haven't seen those yet. But it does seem like it's being a more acceptable thing, but just the bringing them on right at finals time. (Bonnie affirms) To give students another form of release is, it's obviously quite popular. I walk out to see you and, you know, there are just students everywhere, you know, coming by, you know? Kids that didn't know about it are coming by and just, “Oh, well I gotta stop and touch a puppy.” B Biggs: And faculty and staff. And administrators-G Biggs: Presidents. Downie: Yes. We all need it. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Librarians. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So we can move on to some of your other career accomplishments beyond the firsts. You did do a sabbatical in Ghana, and wasn't that one of the first internationally, international-B Biggs: Might have been. I don't know who else had gone-Downie: --sabbaticals. I don't have a list of who's done a sabbatical when and where they went, but it doesn't seem like we had too many faculty-B Biggs: Not that many of them-Downie: --that were internationally focused the way you were on this. Transcribed by Aaron 18 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: And there was somehow money. It was obviously Komla Amoaku (Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM) who got me interested because they do have what I would call tribal libraries, or libraries formed by indigenous people in Ghana. And so, he got money through the-G Biggs: United States (overlapping dialogue) Information, USIA. B Biggs: So, so a little bit of money to help fund that. We of course got some money from the university I guess, to go, but we ended up paying your (Gunnar’s) way. G Biggs: Yeah. Thanks. B Biggs: For everything. And we stayed at a woman's home, auntie-G Biggs: Jane Korontang. B Biggs: Korontang-G Biggs: On Labadi Beach on the Gulf of Guinea. B Biggs: So Komla-Downie: I may have to ask for spelling. (laughter) B Biggs: Komla got us connected everywhere. And we had a--but it, but again, it was to go around and talk with people in libraries that again, were kind of like the tribal libraries here. Some pretty well formed, some others, very slim, I would say. But the thing about Ghana was Komla was very involved in the music world there. He was the director-G Biggs: Director. B Biggs: Of the national Symphony-G Biggs: Theater. B Biggs: Symphony or Orchestra? G Biggs: National Theater of Ghana. B Biggs: National Theater of Ghana-G Biggs: Which was an umbrella organization for all the arts-B Biggs: For all the arts-G Biggs: Music, theater, et. cetera-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 19 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: So he ended up getting this one. It was like my sabbatical. And he (Gunnar) was the star. (laughs) G Biggs: No. No. B Biggs: He had, he had you conduct the-G Biggs: Well, I, we went to hear a concert of the National Symphony of Ghana which was, it's a long story, so I won't go into it now, but it was really a treat. And the next day, Komla said, “Would you go to their rehearsal and talk to them about their performance?” So I did. And it was amazing, you know, and they had me conduct a piece during the rehearsal. But they were using some like, traditional African instruments in a symphony orchestra. That was just ridiculous. I mean, it was so good. And they--I found out that they didn't have strings for the--they didn't have a, they would break a string and they would find some way to make a string. Downie: Oh, wow. G Biggs: So when I got back, what I did is I asked all my symphony friends, I said, “If you have old sets of strings, tuners, anything that would be violin, viola, cello, or bass, give them to me. I'll get them to Ghana.” So, I sent a whole care package. They couldn't tune up. They didn't have a piano that was in tune, so I sent them tuners and things like that. But-B Biggs: And the other, there are a lot of stories, but the other thing about him is we went to a couple of jazz clubs. G Biggs: Which we didn't know existed in the first place-B Biggs: In the first place. G Biggs: --there were jazz clubs in Accra (capital of Ghana), the main-B Biggs: But we walked in and Komla introduced him (Gunnar) as this big jazz star. And he ended up showing the African musicians how to play jazz, which is some funny stuff. I mean, jazz originated in Africa. And the rhythmic foundations of jazz-G Biggs: Well, the head of USIS, United States Information Service, Nick Robertson, who lived in Ojai (California). Anyway, he was a jazz vibraphone player. He played vibes. And he had gotten together, we got some music sent over. Some musicians in Accra, to form a band, at the place called The Bassline. B Biggs: As in bass line. G Biggs: It was amazing, you know? And so I sat in and then, then he said, “We're gonna close the club tomorrow, and you're gonna do a clinic.” I said, “Okay!” (laughter) And then here, and I felt so outta place, because here I am trying to show them the idiom of American jazz, which wouldn't exist were it not for West African influences, ‘cause they had a little couple of pieces of the puzzle rearranged, kind of, and it turned-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 20 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: By the end of the night, they were-G Biggs: By the end of the night, they-B Biggs: They totally had it. G Biggs: They got it immediately. And so I got to-Downie: Well, they had the foundation. G Biggs: Yeah. So I got to sit in every-Downie: It morphed into something different-Downie: So I got to sit in a bunch and play. B Biggs: And then Komla took them out in the country and played with a whole bunch of African drummers, and Gunnar sitting there trying to do the, like the apentemma drum. And this little seven year-Downie: Well, I remember Gunnar playing in Komla’s-B Biggs: Yes, yes-Downie: Classes and things. You know, the performances that-B Biggs: That's right. Downie: What was the name of the-B Biggs: Sankofa? (Dr. Amoaku’s Artists in Residence group, which CSUSM granted a stipend to support the university mission of diversity through arts.) G Biggs: Sankofa. Downie: Sankofa. That you would do-G Biggs: Well, I knew enough to be dangerous (laughter). But when he took us to his home in Ho (Ghana), which was way up in the northern Volta region, they had these people waiting for us when we drove in, it was like midnight. And all the kids were gonna dance and drum for us. And they asked me to sit in again. So I'm playing this one part, and it's like, I remember this eight-year-old little boy going, “Yes, no, no, no, no. Yes. That's it. No, no, no.” (laughter). So I'm being totally humbled to the roots. B Biggs: By an 8-year-old. (laughter) G Biggs: But I remember everything he told me. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 21 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Everything, yeah G Biggs: I mean, so-B Biggs: So, anyway, it was my sabbatical. But he was the superstar. G Biggs: No, I didn't get on national radio. B Biggs: I got on national radio but what, but they would not let him come in. They actually had people with guns-G Biggs: Fifty caliber gunmen placements. B Biggs: Over I guess, you know in, for national radio in a country that, I mean, there really weren't bad things going on-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Well, if there, if there's a coup, the first thing-B Biggs: They go-G Biggs: --people do is they take over the national communicate television and radio. Downie: Oh, true. Yeah. G Biggs: So they had these guys with helmets and fifty caliber machine guns. And you were, if you weren't on the list, they'd point the gun at you to keep walking. B Biggs: Gunnar was like, “I think I'll wait in the car for you.” G Biggs: I moved back to the, yeah-B Biggs: It was just a quick interview. But about-G Biggs: It was a good interview! B Biggs: --tribal. And it was a, it was nice in the interview to be able to talk about some of the similarities between the indigenous library, libraries in Ghana and the tribal libraries here in the country. So it was-G Biggs: You did that at the University of Ghana too, remember? You went in there and you talked with them? B Biggs: I think so. G Biggs: Yeah. I was in the car waiting again. (laughter) B Biggs: You were probably, yeah. Yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 22 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: But you talked to people at the university. B Biggs: And I may have at the university of--where did we go? British Columbia (Canada), I think I talked about, had an opportunity to, one of the many you know talks was to talk about that there are indigenous libraries in Africa as well. So, it was fun. What else? But yeah, his story, I mean, he was “Mr. Superstar” there. Yeah, you were. Yep. Downie: Okay. So well, we'll move on out of Africa and come back to the states here. (laughter) Talk about anything, anything you did at the CSU level rather than campus level. Anything that you did? B Biggs: Lots of talks. I'm trying to think. I actually got involved in development at one point. Fundraising. Downie: I kind of remember that. You were doing some fundraising. B Biggs: And there was a group that was formed out of San Luis Obispo, on librarians who were involved in development. I'm trying to make, remember the name of that group? Do you remember that? G Biggs: No. What about the California State Library? Recognizing. B Biggs: Oh, yeah. I mean, but that's not the CSU. G Biggs: No, but under this career accomplishment thing. B Biggs: Yeah, well that was a big one. Was the, you know, the assessment thing. That came out of having a relationship with a woman I met through AILA (American Indian Library Association), American Indian. She went on to become the state tribal library coordinator. Susan Hanks, I don't know if you remember Susan's name. Downie: That name sounds vaguely familiar-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Which didn't exist before you. B Biggs: Yeah, she, well, yeah. G Biggs: Sorry. B Biggs: National. ALA (American Library Association). I actually went from being involved with ALA with more, much more with AILA (American Indian Library Association). I would go to ALA meetings. But it was all about, you know, going to the AILA meetings. Downie: But you were the first non-Indian president-B Biggs: President, of AILA. Yeah. And that's Lotsee’s (referring to Patterson) fault. She pushed me down that road. (laughter) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 23 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: And you got an award for a Librarian of the Year for-B Biggs: Yeah, it was-G Biggs: What was that award? B Biggs: I don't know. The plaque is in there. Downie: I remember typing up some of the newsletters for AILA. Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: I was your support person with Arts and Lectures. B Biggs: That's right. Right. It, I think they still have the group, and I wanna think it's Librarians of Color, which I'm not that colorful. I am part Cherokee, but I don't, I don't talk about that to, what's it called? Joint Conference Librarians of Color Distinguished Service Award. Yeah. Oh, that was a, what was the one we did the talk at? In the--people from--that were the Whakatau (pronounced with a “ph” sound). G Biggs: Whakahau. B Biggs: That was their actual name. G Biggs: They were Māori. B Biggs: Māori. G Biggs: Māori. B Biggs: And, and it wasG Biggs: New Zealand. B Biggs: Yeah. Indigenous First Peoples from all over the world. And that was, that was through AILA, my part was through AILA, but it was with International Indigenous Librarians (Forum, advocacy group for indigenous peoples in library systems). Yeah. Downie: Your influence-B Biggs: This is bringing back weird memories, God. That's where they put him (Gunnar) in charge of helping. And he had like these five Indian women that were telling him what to do and how to do it. And he was like, “Whatever you say.” Downie: Whatever you want. (laughter) B Biggs: Palomar Library Association. Wow. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 24 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Because I know you were, you would've been involved early on. B Biggs: Way early on. Yeah. Yeah. You were too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, I edited the newsletter for ten years. B Biggs: Right, right. Downie: But that was also what opened my contacts to where when I first, when I finished my master's, Connie Constantino (former Library Director, United States International University) reached out to me. And I knew her through Palomar Library Association. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. So do they still exist? Downie: No. It became San Diego Region Library Association. And then a couple years later it folded. There, just, I think there were too many divergent interests going on. And again, it's kind of like students you know, when they graduate out, you know, you gotta have at least one driving force. And I think we came to a period where it just wasn't a driving force anymore. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Not sure how far and deep I was involved with-Downie: I know (overlapping dialogue) I've seen some photographs of you at events. B Biggs: At events, yeah. Downie: Because I just saw Alice Rigg (former president of the Palomar Library Association)-B Biggs: Wow. Downie: About a month ago. B Biggs: Carolyn's in touch with her. Downie: Yeah. Carolyn (Funes) got in touch with me to get in touch with Alice. And Alice is moving, downsizing and moving in with her son, and so she found a couple of old photograph binders of early-B Biggs: Wow. And she was pretty involved, right? (Downie affirms) I mean, she was, yeah. Yeah. Downie: It seemed like the public librarians were much more involved in Palomar Library Association than the academics were. I think because we probably just, we were also having-B Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) Had all these other--yeah. Downie: --to publish and research and everything else, where the public librarians, this was a way for them to see each other and be able to congregate. Cause a lot of them couldn't go to ALA and stuff like that. There just wasn't any funding for the public librarians. Transcribed by Aaron 25 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I hadn't thought about Connie Constantino in forever-G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Downie: But yeah. Were you there when they started the scholarship? Okay. B Biggs: I don't think so. Downie: Okay, because I know they had this scholarship. B Biggs: But I remember someone getting it. Yeah. I'm trying to think who. Downie: Cause I, I haven't been able to track down the memories of how the scholarship got started. B Biggs: Does Alice know? Have you talked to her or? Downie: She wasn't feeling too terribly well that day, so-B Biggs: Okay. Downie: --no, I didn't really push her for a lot of stuff, but yeah. I may reach out to her again. So yeah, bringing up those old memories. (laughs) B Biggs: I mean, PLA (Palomar Library Association), I hadn't thought about that in forever. Well, PLA is also Public Library Association. (Downie affirms) But I mean, but the Palomar-Downie: But Palomar. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Downie: But well, anyway, let's move on to your post-retirement work, because you certainly haven't rested on your laurels, so to speak. You've continued a lot of your initiatives and then you've also gone and done Love on a Leash (nonprofit organization providing pet therapy). But, I know that your liaison work, a lot of it was after you retired from the library. B Biggs: Right. So, Karen Haynes asked me to serve as tribal liaison. She was upset I was retiring as soon as I did. I think I was only sixty. G Biggs: You did it. You bought time. So it was early sixty. B Biggs: I bought time. So, so I was young, but I was ready. I mean, putting in twenty-two years at that, you know, place that the university was at was like putting in forty-four (laughs) in terms of-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 26 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: It was a lot of work. B Biggs: --just everything starting from scratch. So, I was ready to retire. She (Haynes) asked me if I would stay on and do, and I got to just pick my hours work from home. I was on the rez ninety percent of the time. But that's when the, the community task force was really underway. And that's when we started NAC. And I stayed on NAC until just this year. So, I retired in 2007 totally, like stopped being tribal liaison in 2007. Retired as faculty in 2004. I am still, I guess, on the California Indian Sovereignty--Culture and Sovereignty Center (CICSC; founded in 2009). I keep trying not to be, but I'm on. And so the things I continue to stay involved with, I'm trying to help this new Mejaumi (Franco-Rosales) who is replacing Tish(mall Turner) or filling some kind of tribal projects role until they find a tribal liaison. So I'm doing that. The big work now is working with Donna (Uchimura), Uncle Henry's daughter, to get Uncle Henry's archives digitized and to make sure that the family has a great deal of input and oversight. And so that one, that one's happening right now. I understand that Donna has let Joely (Proudfit) know who she wants to be on this committee. When Joely said she wanted to have a committee in this meeting with Donna, my first thought was, “You know what committee means to us.” (laughs) I thought, “Oh my gosh.” So, walking across the bridge with Donna, I said, “You know, you involve family to the extent that you want them.” And so (noise of a phone chime) she's done that. And Sean, she wants Sean (Visintainer). And she knows I'm trying to take a step back, but it's the one thing I can't not do. I just can't, for Henry's sake, I can't abandon the family until that’s done. Downie: Well, that and all parties trust you. You know, and you have such a long-established history of doing what's right and-B Biggs: Yeah, there is trust. Downie: --I don’t think everybody else see their--see the path forward. It's very important. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And I stay in touch. You know, we just visited Pala (reservation) a couple weeks ago. Walked in and there's Chairman (Robert) Smith sitting there, but these are, these are people now who are Casino rich. And you know, so it's a whole different world, but they're just still folks who remember Gunnar and I putting books on a cart and running it over from a little trailer into the new building. So, we still have a relationship with a lot of those libraries. Rincon (California), we recently went out and gave them materials on Luiseño songs. G Biggs: Do you hear Zuni? (family dog) B Biggs: Is she in her dream? G Biggs: She's chirping. (laughs) B Biggs: She's having a dream. (laughs) Downie: And you know, because I worked under you as support staff for what was supposed to be a seven-month appointment, if I remember correctly-B Biggs: Yes. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 27 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Well it turned into four years! B Biggs: I know. Downie: But I would go home at night and I would talk to Dennis and Delaine about what was going on. And I mentioned your work with the tribal libraries. And do you remember Delaine's book project, where she gathered books from-B Biggs: Oh, yeah. Downie: --from her elementary school to donate? B Biggs: Yes. I forgot all about that. Wow. Downie: No. That she, she came up with that idea on her own and, you know-G Biggs: That's too cool. Downie: --I was so proud of her for doing that. But you know, you have inspired things to go out beyond your own efforts, which I think is really important. B Biggs: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. (Gunnar laughs) Downie: I will. B Biggs: And can she fix my iPhone? No. (laughter) She works for Apple, right? Downie: She does. B Biggs: Check it out. Somebody you wanna know (laughter). One beautiful overlapping of that, is we have gone out twice, maybe three times, with therapy dogs to the Little Feathers School at Pala Library. So there's the library, and now there's Little Feathers School. Downie: Good. B Biggs: And I've talked a couple of really good friends into--I’ll drive, and it's a long drive--and to go out and take therapy dogs to-Downie: Oh, that’s wonderful. B Biggs: --tribal kids. Yeah. So that, I have to set it up with her again to do that. But that, so that's like both worlds coming back together again, which is-Downie: Because-B Biggs: --a beautiful-- Transcribed by Aaron Williams 28 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: You, you've mentioned this, but there is Love on a Leash, which seems to be a huge portion of your life now. I mean, you were president of the local, the local chapter, right? B Biggs: Right. And National. G Biggs: National. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And vice president for ten years, and still very, very involved. My issue now is just organizing too many events. I'm doing What Gives Your Life Meaning? (CSUSM initiative and campaign for palliative care) in a couple weeks. And I'm having to, I've learned to say no, kind of, to this sorority, that fraternity, that you know, I just can't do--So we've narrowed it down to four big events at Cal State San Marcos. And six libraries and two-Downie: And you've got all those volunteers to organize with their dogs. B Biggs: Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. It's kinda-Downie: Multiple sessions. Yeah. And it's admirable that everybody wants you, but there's also, you could have dogs on campus every day. I mean, if you really-B Biggs: I would love to. Downie: --accommodated everybody who asked. B Biggs: Can't do it. Can’t do it. That was a hard one. And I'm having to step down from Cardiff Library because I have twenty minutes down there, and only had one kid to read to the dogs. So it's like they never got it off the ground, two years now. So, and that's hard. Gunnar knows, like, I don't know how to say no. (laughs) And learning to do that. But yeah, that's a, definitely a passion. And I love the university. I think that's the most important. Downie: Well, you do have your bench on the campus, it says-B Biggs: That's right. (overlapping dialogue) He (Gunnar) calls me a bench! (laughs) Downie: --"I love this university,” I believe is what it says on it. B Biggs: Yes, it does. Yeah. Downie: Right next to the one with Dannis (Mitchell, deceased library employee). B Biggs: Yes, yes. (unintelligible) Yeah. Downie: So, I usually have a closing question. Because we've kind of been through my list here, but is there anything you can think about that, you know, or a culminating statement that you would want to say about the years you've had with Cal State? And you too Gunnar? I mean, you've, you've jumped in and reminded and brought up a few things, but-- Transcribed by Aaron Williams 29 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I love that university, and I love what it gave me the opportunity to do in terms of the work with tribes, the work with Arts and Lectures. Owing books to, you know, I mean, I did work with patrons, but these other peripheral responsibilities are--run deep and are so meaningful to me. So I'm grateful for the opportunity. And even better to bring my dogs back. G Biggs: Yeah. B Biggs: That's just the best. (laughs) G Biggs: Well, for me, because I did take such a long time off from higher education, it is a home that I found. I got a bachelor's degree there that they let me design. It didn't exist before. I didn't know that was possible. The faculty there said, “You can do this.” I got a single subject California teaching credential there, and I actually taught there for three years as well. So, I consider it my academic home. I feel really at home out there. And I still know people that teach there, which is kind of cool. But it was very accepting to me, very flexible and of the highest quality. I mean, the, I almost said floundering. The founding faculty (laughs) came from such great places. They were really good teachers, researchers, and human beings. I was really just totally immersed in their lives and their subjects. So, it was really a nice place to finish up that part. For me. Downie: And I have to agree wholeheartedly with both of you. B Biggs: Aw. When you turn this (recording) off, I have one final story. Downie: Okay. (laughs) Alright, well I think we can end the interview at this point. So if you'll pass the phone over to me, I'll find the off button, wherever it is. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 30 2024-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Biggs, Bonnie and Gunnar. Interview transcript, March 26, 2024. Description An account of the resource Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-03-26 Subject The topic of the resource American Indian Library Association California Indians California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison California State University San Marcos. University Library Libraries -- Ghana Jazz -- Ghana Jazz musicians -- Ghana Love on a Leash Patterson, Lotsee Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 Tribal libraries -- New Mexico Tribal libraries -- Southern California Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ghana New Mexico San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_transcript Art and artists Community history CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/16c819ecee03d3978d8818963f0d9827.pdf d5078d0e63780b613c3a2061cc24e594 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bilbray, Brian. Interview transcript April 3rd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. This oral history interview was made possible by the Ellie Johns Foundation stewarded by the Rancho Santa Fe Library Guild. It was created as part of CSUSM's University Library/History Department internship in oral history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Imperial Beach (Calif.) Mexican-American Border Region Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Brian Bilbray License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_Transcript Community history History Department internship Politics and governance https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5490a2f714ae99ef8991f09f90947482.pdf f155830d06e7141eac3e5191343c7007 PDF Text Text BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I'm a graduate research assistant with Kellogg Library at CSU (Cal State University) San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Bridget Blanshan, Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator here at CSU San Marcos. The date is April twenty-sixth, and the time is 1:36 p.m. So, Bridget, thank you for joining us today to discuss your involvement with the history of the Cross-Cultural Center, as well as talk about some other programs that you've implemented at CSU San Marcos. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: The first question I wanted to ask you was actually about your academic background. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: So what led you to your interest in student advocacy and ultimately administration in higher ed. (education)? Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Good question. So Michael, thanks for the time today. This is gonna be a fun conversation. So, I have a bachelor's degree in business management which I received from Iowa State University. That's the state in which I was born and raised through my college graduation. And while--as many of us, it occurs for many of us who go into student affairs work, it was really during my college experience that I interacted with student affairs professionals. I was involved on campus, and I thought, this is really rewarding for me, and this seems like an interesting career. Let me, let me see if I like it. Let me try it on. And so I had been active as a, a student leader and as a student employee, Resident Assistant was what they were called at that time in student housing at Iowa State (University). And I really enjoyed that role. And so, I spoke with my supervisor and asked what she thought, and she talked with me about kind of how to get my foot in the door and take a job to, to see if that was something I was interested in. So, I did that and I started as a Hall Coordinator at San Diego State University in 1990. I expected to be there just for a couple of years and then go back to the Midwest. But I really fell in love with the state and the CSU mission, which is really around as, as I think many of us are aware, really around being the educator for the state of California. Really providing an opportunity for the diverse student, um students across our state to get a college degree, many of whom are first in their family to do that. And that was something that I, I was very--really realized I was very passionate about. So, I then went on knowing that I would need a master's degree, at least, to continue in Student Affairs and work on a college campus. So, in 1993, I started a master's degree in a program called Educational Leadership at the University of San Diego. And I graduated with my master's degree in 1995. And that was great because I was able to match the, the core requirements, which was about half of the program, with relevant electives, which for me was able to do for example, some of the programs that they offered in their college student personnel or college student counseling program. So that was a great combination. And I continued working at San Diego State until 2001, at which point I came to CSUSM and started my, my tenure here. And then in 2004, I started a doctoral program at the University of Laverne, and it was a doctoral program in Organizational Leadership and found that really rewarding as well and really, really relevant. It's very much a hands-on applied program. So my educational background, which was really the focus of your question, is in management and leadership studies. I've been able to work in, either through courses that I've elected to take or the projects that I've done, really looking at organizations through a, a lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). And so I'm very grateful for being able to have done that. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: Very, very cool. And very impressive. You've been at CSUSM since 2001. I'd like to know what your first impression of CSUSM was, and then in particular, what work you felt like needed to be done there. Blanshan: Sure. So, as I mentioned, I was at San Diego State for eleven years working in student housing. While I was there, about midway through those eleven years, SDSU celebrated its’ centennial. And so then starting at, at CSUSM, and the position that I came to perform was what was then called the Director of Student and Residential Life. And in particular, we were bringin--University Village Apartments (UVA)--that was about concurrent when the time I started, that was approved to be constructed. So that was a major focus of getting the campus ready to have on-campus student housing, and students who were with us 24/7 rather than students commuting at the point as they did. And so coming to, from a(n) over one hundred-year-old campus to a campus that was really new--I'm not quite sure that, I don't think we had celebrated our fifteenth anniversary yet, or we did shortly around the time I arrived. I was, I really enjoyed the students that I met, and I found that the, the campus, the employees were really, really committed to the campus and to the student body. We had only been admitting first year students. It, we started, the campus started by admitting transfer students, and then over, within say the next five to seven years, started admitting first year students. So one of the things that I noticed, from a student life perspective, is it, we didn't have some of the common experiences that first year students on other campuses had. We, there, there were very few night and weekend kind of activities, and which only made sense because many of our transfer students had families of their own, the average age had been, of a student in the early days of CSUSM, had been in the late twenties, so around twenty-eight or twenty-nine years old. So that's, that's very different than the, the college experience that we're offering today. And so, I really looked for ways to start building the foundation, for that (student experience offered at CSUSM today). So at the time, Student and Residential Life included, so residential life, getting ready for student housing and the experience they, that students would have there. We had at the time, two fraternities and two sororities. So we had foundations of fraternity and sorority life. New student orientation was part of the department, as were student organizations. I wanna say within my first, first year or two, we had, I think all of thirty-one student organizations. So it was, again, in its, in its infancy a bit. And then we also, shortly thereafter, started leadership programs. And so that was kind of what we were building, and trying to build that with a vision as to the students that the university would come to serve, as opposed to the students that, that we had served in the, the beginning of the campus. So that's maybe a long answer to your question of what did I think we needed to do? And it was kind of set our, set ourselves up with the building blocks, so that we could serve a student body that was very diverse in terms of age. So at that point, we were, our diversification was to be the average age coming younger, students who lived on campus, and a true diverse student body; that would those kind of build those co-curricular foundations so that it was already, there wouldn't be impediments to students wanting to do things that really met their interests more than, than kind of how things had been outlined in the early years. De Maria: I see. So, a lot of new and exciting developments, obviously some growing pains, right? Blanshan: Oh, absolutely. Sure. De Maria: Cool. From there, I'd like you to take me back to 2002. So, in that year, you authored a memo titled “Vision 2010” that essentially espoused the need for, you know, a multicultural center on campus. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 So I just wanted to ask, what were your aspirations for offering that memo? And then why was there-you did explain it a bit in shifting demographics--but just why there was a need for a multicultural center on campus at that time. Blanshan: Yeah, I think, I think for me, and I mentioned this you know, as I shared with you about my education, I think it's both through my education of being able to look at, at leadership and organizations. And I would say that not only for being a workplace as a university, but also being a--a place, a college campus, is really looking at things through a diversity, equity, and inclusion lens. And so, making certain that we were continuing to evolve in a way where the students who were coming to study with us could feel that they could make a home or a connection somewhere. And so, it's, it's really to the notion of finding a sense of belonging. Some students would find that through a fraternity or sorority other students would find that through Associated Students (Incorporated, student governance organization). I felt very much that, two things; one was that some students would find a place that specifically was designed to be multicultural affirming and in that, that use of even the term “culture,” we intentionally set it very broadly because again, this was before we had any, any identity center on campus that was only student focused. So, this was before the Women's Center, which then evolved to the Gender Equity Center, now, Women's and Gender Equity Center, (it) was before the Pride Center. So, it really was defined “cultural” very, very broadly. So how people's experiences, their community, their sense of identity, and how we could really intentionally affirm that, so that students kind of felt a sense of belonging. I, going back to thinking about, you know, student development as they engage outside the classroom and thinking about, so I mentioned we were also developing a student leadership development program. So for me in, in, you know, being situated in a new millennium, right, in 2001, 2002, the only way to really do that authentically in a way that met student needs, but also spoke to students, but also prepared them for life after college, was to have a multicultural focus on leadership. And so not only what, what is the, the end goal of our leadership endeavors, but how do we do, how do we do leadership and prepare students to lead in very diverse teams, very diverse communities and, and do that in a variety of different ways. So as they want to go out and engage in change making, how might they do that? So that was where, one of the reasons that I wrote that which is so interesting now in 2023 to, to think back of writing “Vision 2010.” But to--I think it was also part of that foundation building that I was talking about before. How do we really create this so that we're intentionally offering as much as we can for places for students to plug-in and feel like CSUSM is theirs? And it's theirs not only as a place to belong, but in a place where they can engage and make it even better. The other thing that I would say, not only in my education, but eleven years at San Diego State in student housing, I had an amazing opportunity to be at a very diverse institution. And in student housing in particular, it's a very unique kind of learning lab for people to come together and live together, a wide variety, a wide diversity of students. So we had to be very, very intentional about preparing our staff, preparing our student leaders to do those roles in a very diverse environment. And so that very much affected kind of how I saw my work in Student Affairs. And a lot of the endeavors that we did throughout the 1990s to enable students, much like I described with a Multicultural Programs area, but to enable students to feel at home, especially students from communities and identities who were often marginalized. And so really pro- doing that in a very intentional way. De Maria: Absolutely. So it sounds like with the founding of that Multicultural Center you'd be essentially addressing some qualitative gaps in the student experience. Not only on the emotional kind Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 of community front, but also allowing students to gain some professional experiences and background too. Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Exactly. De Maria: Very cool. Now I'd like to take you, I'd like for you to take me back to 2003. So what was the social climate of the campus like prior to the establishment of that first Multicultural Center? Blanshan: Wow, that's a great question. And, and I can only, in order to be fair, you know, this is, this is only my perspective on it. So I can't speak for how other people would've described the social climate. And clearly this is informed from my eleven years at San Diego State. So being a very large urban university in the middle of a very large city (San Diego)--San Marcos, at the time the region, North County region, was I would say much more socially and politically, religiously to some extent, conservative. Compared to the broader San Diego County. So that, I think we felt--I felt that, I'll speak for myself, I felt that at CSUSM, that and I think the university was kind of coming to terms with how do we, how do we serve our community knowing that there, that this is a more conservative area within the county. I think we had students who I knew div-- especially some of the, the diversity and i--of identities that aren't visible. Um I of course assumed that for example, we had LGBTQ+ students, but I didn't know them because there wasn't necessarily a student organization. So there wasn't the visibility or the space, as I was more accustomed to at San Diego State. And, and I don't think it was out of any intent to exclude anyone. I think it was just in the building, the very formative years of the institution, and really building the academic programs and coming in and it just was really the time in the institution's development to really focus on kind of broadening the co-curricular experiences for our students. So it was, it was certainly a transition for me. But I also, I would say I also found such wonderful professional colleagues who were of like-mind. And we, we came together and partnered a great deal toward these initiatives. So we had in, the department's name shifted, within my leadership of it, from Student and Residential Life to Student Life and Leadership. And we enjoyed amazing partnerships with Associated Students (Inc). And that's not always something that one takes for granted on a college campus. But I think we were able to come together, clarify you know, how we each add to the campus, to the student experience, and how we can support each other in doing that. So it was, there was a lot of synergy there. For that collaboration. I reported to the Dean of Students at the time, who very much shared this vision and supported it with everything that he could. Certainly the leadership in (Division of) Student Affairs were supportive as well. So I think it was, we were, we were just in that place of the development of the campus where it, I guess the way to sum it up is to say just because something didn't exist didn't mean there wasn't support for it. It just was that growth trajectory that the campus was taking. De Maria: Totally. And it, obviously with necessary growth, that's very cool to hear about. In a 2006 issue of The Pride (student) newspaper, while introducing a talk from Reverend Dr. Jamie Washington, you describe Cal State San Marcos students as “having good fortune for being in a place where not everyone looks like them.” I'd like to know how programs at the Cross-Cultural Center, or at the time the Multicultural Center reinforced that notion and what those early programs looked like. Blanshan: Sure. That's--you're reminding me of things I've forgotten (laughs). One of the things that the Associate Director at the time, so the founding Associate Director Dilcie Perez, one of her first initiatives was, and this was another partnership with the Dean of Students Office, with all of Student and Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 Residential Life at the time and ASI (Associated Student Inc.) was, she built the Multicultural Student Leadership Council. And so, within that council there were, started really with looking at student organizations that were built around identity. So, that could have been one, our, if we had a Women's Studies Student Association, which we did back in the day, if we had an African-American Student Association, so some of the predecessors of, you know, BSU (Black Student Union) or our LGBTQ student org (Pride Center), other organizations that were built around religious identity and expression. So really looking at purposely bringing people together, knowing that their, that their focus of their organization, their identities may be different, but the organization had a common mission which was to promote student belonging, advocate for student needs. And so how could they support each other or be allies for each other as they each sought to do that independently, but then also where the, where are the ways that they could promote that collectively as well. So that was, that was just one example. I think, you know when we had Dr. Washington, I remember, I remember that year and I remember the, we had a wonderful turnout of student leaders to go through that experience. And I remember thinking that and he was really focusing on diversity and leadership and equity and, and equity minded leadership. And what are, how do we get to know each other in all of the identities that we all share and that those in which we’re different. And the intersectionality that all of us represent. And so I think I just remember looking across the students that were assembled that evening and thinking, this, this is, this is the kind of opportunity that without the diversity of our student body, that opportunity would not exist. And so how do we, how do we take that and make that a transformative experience being the ultimate goal? De Maria: Totally. Yeah. And I think one theme that we've already touched on is, you know, the value of that educational experience, but also as a professional experience too. So being in diverse places oftentimes makes us just better at what we do. And then regarding your participation in, you know, Multicultural Center programs or Cross-Cultural Center programs I'd like to know about specific programs that were put on and then what your experiences were like, kind of engaging with them or directing with them. Blanshan: Sure. Oh, there were a handful. We did, we had started some, and I'm not going to remember the name of it, but a kind of a Cross-Cultural welcome for incoming students is kind of one of the, the events that we would offer at week, what are now referred to as Weeks of Welcome. Again, I think creating space where students could just check it out, see what it's like, 'cause that's really, you know it, we want students to explore as much of the campus communities as they can as soon as they get here. And so, I think not only to experience and to hear but also to experience that through this event, we're symbolizing the importance of not only diversity, but inclusion. And, and we often put those two words together, but they're, they're different, right? I think diversity, diversity exists, and it doesn't mean that it, it exists without our collective effort, but just because someplace is diverse doesn't mean it's inclusive. And so how do we symbolize that, have that be kind of a, a cornerstone program that kicks-off a student's experience at CSUSM, and then how do we just start and build on that? So, certainly doing hosting and co-hosting that for several years is, is one example. We talked about the Multicultural Student Leadership Council that we would do overnight retreats. That evolved over time into the better part of a weekend. So a Friday through, kind of like midday Friday through midday Sunday experience for students. And I think that kind of deep dive and being part of that was always really, really rewarding. Again, very harken back to a lot of the work that I had done at, at San Diego State. So really kind of bringing that in, for students to be able to do a deep dive and for them to create space where it's--it's where learning is okay and discomfort is expected. And to, you Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 know, really hopefully broaden their viewpoints, or affirm those that may not be held by many or most students. And so I think doing that (overnight retreats), I think there were, oh gosh so many things as we brought out, brought on student housing as well that I've, I will always describe student housing as a high risk, but also high reward offering. A high risk in that if, again looking at it through the lens of a diverse student body, that if there's, if we're not there intentionally assisting students to live together through those differences, then the risk of someone feeling very targeted and excluded can be really high. The counterpoint to that is if that's done well, and of course that's, that part of doing that well is the, is students themselves being open to it. That can be an amazingly impactful experience. So, I think working very intentionally in partnership of--with our Resident Advisor, training with our professional staff and being part of the selection and training of those folks. Having that voice at the table that really is looking at how are we preparing for the student experience through a lens of, diversity and equity and inclusion. Or lenses, I should say. And that's not to say that we always got it right. But it, but there's not a chance of getting it right if there's not some intentionality to it. De Maria: Totally, and just acknowledging the difficulty of including that student housing component with Student Life, it, you know, sounds like you needed everyone to be all in, not just to provide that good experience, but also to provide the proper one for certain individuals. Blanshan: Right. Right. Yep. Yeah, it was, it was a, I reflect so fondly on those early days because it very much was we regard(less), everyone had a bit of a different role, right? Different responsibilities. But in order for anyone to succeed, it required everybody. Simply because of the size of our departments or the size of our institution. And we figured out how to do that well. So that actually was a rewarding outcome just to be kind of in community with our colleagues to support whatever endeavor was, was happening at the time. De Maria: Very cool. For my next question, I wanted to know about instances of activism you witnessed. Or participated in that stemmed from the Cross-Cultural Center slash Multicultural Center. Blanshan: Wow. It's hard to pinpoint something that stemmed only from Multicultural Programs, 'cause again, I was talking about that collaboration, that synergy. So I would maybe hope you'll allow me to go maybe a little bit broader. Some of the things that, that we just kind of accept as business as usual if you will, are the fact that we have the number of identity related centers that we do. So back in the day, at the start of the Cross-Cultural, well again, what we call Multicultural Programs and we had a very, very small space. But it then I think, and through our partnership with ASI (Associated Students Inc.) and their own commitment, then that generated a Women's Center, then generated the LGBTQ+ Pride Center. And then we, if you look at the (University) Student Union (CSUSM building), if you were to walk the third floor of the Student Union, you would see the Cross-Cultural Center, the Latin@/x Center, Women's and Gender Equity, and the Pride Center. You'd go up another floor and see, see the Black Student Center and more centers to come. Certainly we have the Veteran’s Center and the, it's space where it's at. I think, I like to think that Multicultural Programs laid the, laid the ground for that to grow. Because I think having a space to come together and people to see what happens when students come together, then kind of lends itself to now we've opened the door, let's talk about what we want this to look like. And I, and those occurred by like I said, either through ASI or through student organizations and student leaders, really activating with the university leadership to make sure that they happen, in the case of Latinx and BSC (Black Student Center). So I think I look at it that way. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 I look at, at the fact that all the centers are in general in the same location. And that was very intentional. They're--we didn't split them out by like their home department, if you will. It was, “How do we place these so students are going to engage them as, as much as we can get them to engage?” And so it's no accident that they're on the third floor (of the University Student Union) together, right under food. 'Cause we know students will come in for food. I think things like University Hour (no classes held between 12 to 12:50pm Tuseday and Thursday) is that, you know, how does that relate to you know, Multicultural Programs? I think it relates because we also were introducing programs and events that where we could articulate the student learning associated with those programs and events. To reserve, you know, twelve to twelve fifty a couple of days a week in a college in a university's academic schedule is no small sacrifice. That is, can be considered prime teaching time. And I think it was because we had laid a foundation that we will, we’re able to say it's not that education is stopping from twelve to twelve fifty, it's just we're enabling students; in particular, those students who didn't live with us weren't able because of maybe they had family and work and, and all kinds of things, but they were likely on campus so they could have an experience that they otherwise wouldn't have. Sorry, I can think of you know pointing to something as now that we see as large--that we can only envision, as large as the USU (University Student Union) I could see the vacant ground from my office window of where it was, where it now was built and sitting; to something that I think, you know, University Hour is tradition here. I think presently the Student Leadership and Involvement Center which is kind of an evolvement of what we started with Student and Residential Life. They also continue to offer Women's Leadership Symposium. So that was something we also launched about the same time leadership from a leadership and cultural place. Because I think when we broadly consider a cultural experience or an identity related experience, I think that's where we get into notions that gender and how we are socialized to be however we identify in our gender is a really important factor to how we engage with the campus and the broader world. So. De Maria: Yeah, and I really, that really resonates with me in terms of thinking of the establishment of those centers as activism. Ultimately, all activism is meant to affect an institutional change. So it's just very empowering to hear that there were so many individuals who were empowered to do that and kind of follow in the Multicultural Center's footsteps in that respect. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: Well so, for my next question on a bit of a different noteBlanshan: Sure. De Maria: I managed to find a mem- or a letter, I guess, from FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education. And that was a letter that you were cc'd (carbon copied) on regarding a student publication called the Koala. So the Koala, just giving a brief summary for anyone listening to this interview, was a satirical newspaper on CSUSM campus that was known for publishing questionable, lewd, some would even say obscene content about people in the community and would sometimes lampoon, you know certain efforts from student organizations to do a lot of (laughs) to affect change positively. Blanshan: Right. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: So my question isn't necessarily about the Koala, but it is about opposition. So I do want to ask you if there were groups, or if there was prominent opposition? And how that manifested itself on campus. Blanshan: And when you, you say opposition, are you thinking opposition to establishing Multicultural Programs, or as we kind of went out and did various programmatic initiatives, or? De Maria: I'm referring to cha- yeah, so challenging the necessity for Multicultural Programs as well as the outcomes of those programs. Blanshan: Hmm. You know, I, I think we see so many examples of that, that opposition today. I think I, as we set out to kind of create you know the vision and mission for Multicultural Programs, it was--how do I say this? I think there are different roles for different change makers to move society forward. So I think there are some that are, are very focused on being almost, there's a role for opposing existing institutions. There's also a role for folks operating inside an institution to elevate something, which is kind of how I would think we did this with Multicultural Programs, bringing the program to life, bringing, you know creating even more space for it. I think there wasn't opposition to it organizationally, and I don't--so this is the catch with trying to mem--you know, go back 20 years in memory. I don't know that there was vocal or visible pushback, but I do think anytime we're talking about social justice and equity, it can be an inclusive space for some, and it also because it's challenging the status quo leaves others feeling excluded or blamed or it, that's where some of that discomfort happens. And I think we very much try to include, even voices who might say, you know, “Why do we need this?” Why do we-because I think it was, it's always being able to say to a student who may say, “I don't think we need this on, on campus. I don't think the campus should be spending resources in this way.” Being able to sit down and say, “Okay, let's talk about your vision for your career. Where, do you hope to work?” And, you know, learning more about the, the individual. “Who do you think your coworkers will be? Who do you think your boss might be? Who do you think, if you were if you have constituents that your product or services is going out to target, who will they be? And think about how these experiences might better prepare you to be successful in that environment that you are in that future that you're envisioning for yourself.” So I think trying to include, include everybody? While knowing that the impact of the program, the experience, or the initiative is gonna be different based on how people see themselves. And how they perceive their place to be in the campus community or the world. De Maria: Totally. And once again, you kind of touched on that concept of social justice, diversity, and equity kind of being necessary as something that we kind of can't avoid living in the modern world. So again, definitely resonates with me and is definitely a pertinent message to anyone who might not see the value of certain programs like that. Regarding the Cross-Cultural Center itself, I'd like you to tell me what your favorite memory is. Blanshan: Hmm. I have many. I think certainly something that comes to mind are the, when we started the retreats, and we kind of, this was, when I say “we,” it was a very broad “we,” so it was folks who maybe their- our positions didn't envision us being on a weekend retreat with students. But because people had either an area of expertise or a passion or experience in another role at another campus or another, you know, organization such as like Anti-Defamation League or something like that, that they could really come together, brought a group of people together that didn't always work with each other, and to really offer something that could be so transformative. And I think it's just, and also being with Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 students as they go through an experience like that is a really--it's a unique opportunity of getting to kind of participate in or watch from the side of students grappling with concepts, grappling with their emotions around whatever it is we're talking about. Creating space to hear each other. You know, those are, those are just really powerful experiences. So that, that would absolutely be a favorite. I don't think I could name the favorite, but definitely a favorite. It's also been a pleasure to watch the space grow and watch it grow in terms of now I think some of the, the great work that Floyd (Lai)'s (Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) been doing with us for, for many years, but like the Activist Lab (Cross-Cultural Center work space) or you know, working on, on preparing people to have difficult dialogues and how to do that. I think I think it's so critically, it's been critically important the whole time. But I, as I reflect on kind of what we're hit with in the media today about our, our own country and the world, that's not something we're seeing. We see people who you know, have very spiteful, hateful reactions to even ideological differences. And so, I think being able to, even if it's a few students at a time, it's enabling someone to have a conversation or see a conversation where we can have very, very passionate differences, but we can still respect each other. And in an ideal place learn from each other. De Maria: Totally. And that also relates back to what you were mentioning regarding diversity and inclusion not being the same thing and not being a package deal all the time. So I can definitely see that importance of inclusion, you know, even if it does lead to those difficult conversations or acknowledging some not so favorable things about our own behavior, things that we've said in the past. Blanshan: Yeah (talking over each other). Yeah. De Maria: So I, I totally get that. In shifting gears a little bit here, I do want to talk about your doctorate. As well as your 2007 dissertation in particular. So that was (a) study of the multicultural awareness of professional residence hall directors in California colleges. And in your own words, I just wanted to know what your findings were. Blanshan: Hmm. Findings were that it, the instrument was a self-support, or self-report survey. So I don't think any person who's done research would tell you what findings are without acknowledging that there are limitations to any method. I think, so within that self-report, what we got back were fairly I would say moderate to high levels of multicultural awareness. And so the notion, if you look at, you know, “Why is that important?” It's a construct by Pope and Reynolds, back in the early two thousands, of a construct of Multicultural Competence in Student Affairs (Advancing Social and Inclusion; book by Raechele L. Pope and Amy L. Reynolds). And so, Pope and Renolds talk about that being multicultural awareness, multicultural knowledge, and multicultural skills. And so that awareness, knowledge of skills has to be there. But awareness of others and awareness of myself, if that's not there, then we're kind of-then we can't get to this place of multicultural competence, which in the dissertation I really argued was an essential aspect to student affairs work because of the diversity of our student bodies. So it was a fairly, like I said moderate to high in terms of the quantitative. I think as I reflect on it, not a surprise, although you know, you never know what you, you don't know what you don't know until you learn it. I probably got just as much out of the sliver of qualitative part of that instrument of learning where people believe their awareness came from. So, was it “I lived abroad as a child.” I think that was a response. There were, and it just, the range because it showed just a different level of reflection of, “What do I think this is? And where do I think this (multicultural competency) came from in me?” I could Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 rate myself highly, but someone else may not agree. Right? So, there's the opportunity for other research of validating this self-report with peer or supervisorial ratings as well. But I think asking people, “Where did that (multicultural competency) come from?” was a really interesting aspect of that. De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And going from there I also wanted to ask you what your relationship was like with Dr. Gregory Toya (current Associate Dean of Students at CSUSM)? In particular I want to know if-- what your involvement was in his study regarding the importance of cultural spaces on college campuses and its relationship to student retention. Blanshan: Right. You see me smiling. I have a very fond place, for Greg. He was--I started as the Associate VP (Vice President), Interim Associate VP and Dean of Students in 2006. Right about March and April of that year, and in June or July Dr. Toya joined as the Associate Dean. And so, he was just a wonderful collegial partner. And I was able to--he started his doctoral program shortly, maybe a couple of years into his time on our campus. He had come from cross-cultural center work. That was his most recent position, before coming to us (CSUSM). And one of the reasons that I was interested in Greg joining our team, and selecting him, was because of that experience. And so, to see him then study that for his dissertation made all kinds of sense in the world. And I appreciated his thought about not only the association of a Cross-Cultural Center on student retention, but I think he also looked at what are some of those aspects of leadership or leaders in Cross-Cultural Centers that contribute to that (student retention). And you know, it was again, not a surprise because one of, to hire people into student affairs work, we typically will ask them to spend better part of a day or sometimes a day and a half with us interviewing on campus. And that typically will involve presentation. And so the presentation he was asked to provide, so I'm going back to 2006 before he even started his doctorate, was to ask him to name a student development theory or framework that he felt he would rely on to do the associate dean job as it was then defined. So he was working with students through student conduct, working through students with students on, students that were considering withdrawing from the university, and some other aspects of what was happening in the Dean of Students Office at the time. And he chose actually one of my favorite frameworks too. It's by Nancy Schlosberg. And I can't spell that out loud for you today, but I can get you the citation. But Schlosberg talks about marginality and mattering, and I don't recall his dissertation well enough, but that's kind of a foundational thing of: if I believe that I matter, then I'm more likely to participate, I'm more likely to persevere when things are really difficult because I matter to the campus, or I matter to someone on campus. As opposed to: if I feel like I don't make a difference at all, and I'm kind of experiencing something from a, you know, I'm experiencing even, not that I even worse than, “I don't make a difference.” But if I'm--if I feel like I'm being marginalized on my campus, then those things are less likely to happen. Those, all those things where we ask, because we're already asking so much of a student who may experience marginalization just to come back to campus day-to-day, let alone go through things that just happen in life when a student's studying for a college degree. And so, I think I was thrilled to work with Greg as he did his doctoral program and his dissertation and remember him, his (dissertation) defense as well. It was, it was a great day. De Maria: That's awesome. And I do have a few more questions left. Blanshan: Sure. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: All relating to the Cross-Cultural Center itself. So my next question, just in general how has the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time? Blanshan: Hmm. Well I think, you know even something, it's a name but I think names are incredibly important. You know, going from Multicultural Programs to Cross-Cultural Center, I think as we started to see more, whether it be services, spaces, organizations kind of become present on campus I think it could focus more on that cross-cultural aspect as opposed to providing a home base for everyone. Not that it shouldn't still be that, I would want any student, and I'm not the only one who would want this, any student to feel comfortable going to the Cross-Cultural Center. But I think some of the work like I was mentioning before, the Activist Lab, some of the space where we really can get into those dialogues across differences and, “What the heck is a dialogue anyway and how is that different than a debate?” You know I think that's, that gives it more space, more programmatic and physical space to be able to do those things. So that's been great to see it (the Cross-Cultural Center) evolve and kind of redefine its role over the last two decades. De Maria: Absolutely. And it's also been very enjoyable for me to hear about the genesis of a lot of these programs, especially as I'm embarking on these interviews and kind of hearing about things that happened, but not necessarily knowing the beginning of that. So, it's definitely a rich history, and I'm also glad it's been around for so long. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: And my last few questions are about the future of the Cross-Cultural Center. But how have your experiences with (the) Cross-Cultural Center impacted you as a professional? And what kind of programs do you see yourself working on as a result of those experiences? Blanshan: You know, I think--I think for me you know, from its, even its inception, it was a kind of a sense, a place of where I could kind of recharge myself. So, because it was a space that was overtly designed for, to be welcoming of people across differences, being welcome of myriad identities. And so, you know just talking about a very personal impact to me is it's a great place to say, “okay, I may be having, maybe it's a difficult day, but you know, I can just stop in and say hello and talk with a staff member.” And especially, you know, early on. And that was, that was a highlight. Like I said, it's been enriching to, you know, years ago participate in some of the retreats or actually some of the training that was offered and partner with different people to do that. I think I still--I enjoy supporting it. I think you know for the past you know, as you think about, as I think about my role as a Title IX Coordinator, and then also someone who oversees the University's response to concerns of discrimination and harassment, I see that as just another function within our stated values to be an inclusive community. And so, it's not directly related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but I think I hold on to initiatives like the Cross-Cultural Center as those initiatives. For example, among our students where we can enable them to feel included rather than, like I was saying before, marginalized which sometimes means that they believe they've experienced discrimination or harassment. I think, so it's all that is very um, it’s just kind of all blended in there. I couldn't, in working at the CSU, so I talked about working at CSUSM and San Diego State, you know spending my entire career at the CSU isn't an accident, for me. It's very much about the mission of the system. And to me that mission has to be informed through the values of Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 inclusion and equity. And so I can't imagine that--I can't imagine being fulfilled by my work if that, if I weren't able to do that. De Maria: Totally. And that's also resonating with me regarding the establishment of the Cross-Cultural Center, kind of being like a manifestation of that mission, as well as like representing future programs that the University's gonna commit to. So, (I) totally get that. Um, going forward, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific spaces on campus? Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. I think it, I think it's a reflection of intersectionality, in one part, right? And it's not to say that our identity centers aren't inclusive of the many identities that are represented within students who go to the Latin@/x Center, or the Black Student Center. So I think we're all, we have many intersections within our, each of us individually. But I think the Cross-Cultural Center being able to look at and potentially unpack some unique areas of historical tension, provide space for if we have student organizations existing on our campus that those communities in our world may be at conflict. How can the Cross-Cultural center help them to kind of find common purpose? Even if they're representing potentially even two warring communities somewhere in the globe. I think (the) Cross-Cultural Center, if you look at it as leadership programs continue to be built out. Whether it's a, even as you, like we talked about the Women's Leadership Symposium and that being very specifically open to everyone, regardless of how a student identifies based on their gender. So being explicitly inclusive of women, men, and all genders that with which students identify, but to understand a unique, some of the historical and then the evolving issues for leadership as informed by experience and socialization based on gender. So I think, you know, that even something that looks, or people may perceive that this is this initiative, this Women's Leadership Symposium is only for women. There is a, there's a space for everyone. And so I think whether that's, you know building on intersectionality that we understand or--and or purposely really creating experiences for cross-cultural -broadly defined -- exchange. I think, you know I think that's where it's going to continue to be essential to our campus. De Maria: Yeah. And it's very inspiring to recognize that there's still room for growth and for change in the (Cross-Cultural) Center, even though it you know has been so successful and so impactful. So obviously, you know people change (laughs), culture and societies change, methods of education change. So, it's awesome to recognize that center can coexist, but also serve a specialized purpose at the same time. Blanshan: Yeah. I think the--expanding the centers that we offer on campus helps give each center potentially a more, I don't wanna say narrow, but more clarified purpose. More focused purpose maybe. But there has to be synergy and a very purposeful, intentional collaboration. So that we can provide what we want to for our students. De Maria: Absolutely. Blanshan: At least I think what we should provide to our students. De Maria: Absolutely. On a different note, what communities do you feel are currently underrepresented on campus? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 Blanshan: I know we have conversation about an American Indian student center. I think we also are in communication about an APIDA center, Asian Pacific Islander (Desi American). So I think those are meeting needs. I think we look at, I know there was a lot of conversation that went into what the center, that into the naming of the center, which is now the Women's and Gender Equity Center. I think the importance of women being explicitly included in the name is important. I think, and I think it's also critical that it's not, I don't wanna say just, that it's not only a Women's Center, because I think we need to also be able to symbolically and programmatically represent the spectrum of gender that we should be affirming in our campus community. I think our student, our student body, our campus community is, it's a microcosm of our world. So, I think there are, could be that, and if you were to look at some of our campus climate studies, you might see that certainly we have disability support services which provide amazing services for our students with disabilities. But do, are, is there more that we could do different from DSS (Disabled Student Services)? Or more like a, whether it's a more social aspect or a sense of belonging. You know, DSS has a very specific role to play, but is there more we could be doing on our campus? I think, I think we continue to grapple, like every campus does across the nation with issues of bias, discrimination, and violence, sexual misconduct, sexual harassment. I think, and I think that's something that we need to keep our eye on in terms of our prevention and education. Those are, experiences like that are often life-changing. And so, you know how do we work our best work to prevent them? And in the event that they're not prevented, how do we make sure that our intervention and our response is as effective as it can be? So, you know I think, and I think we're and every college campus is a human institution. And humans, we’re pretty fallible. And we're it's a, like I said a microcosm of a broader, a broader environment. So, I think there are always ways that we need to be asking the question that you just asked. So who do we, who do we think is experiencing marginalization? And how do we start creating multiple approaches? Because there's, there's not just there will never be a one-size fits all approach to that dilemma. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And that's what leads to those kind of like, difficult, I guess you'd call 'em, conversations about— Blanshan: Absolutely. De Maria: --affecting change and doing the work, basically (De Maria laughs) in order to do that. So, thank you for sharing those thoughts with me. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: And for my final question, I wanted to ask you personally, if someone is interested in pursuing a career in student advocacy or even social justice, what recommendations or tips would you give them? Blanshan: Hmm. That's a great question. I when I think of advocacy and I think of a career in something like social justice, and not a surprise, right? We talked about my educational background. So I think of many things in terms of leadership, right? I think one of the first things to be mindful of is, and I, and this is, this is also true in that little snippet I gave you about multicultural awareness, being an awareness of others, but also awareness of self. I think leadership, especially on something such as social justice, such as advocacy, is (that) it requires a consistent intention. A consistent attention to my own motivations, how I—kind of_where are those things where I find that really feed my purpose, why I want to do this Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 work, and how do I kind of refuel when I've had difficulty. But I think in leadership and in equ--diversity and equity and inclusion work, if we don't always have a mirror back on ourselves so that we could keep ourselves in check, I think it could start, we can, the impact of our work can start to go awry. And I don't know if that makes sense, but I think it's really trying to stay on, what do I think is needed to make positive change. Is this just my thought or have I consulted with others, especially those who disagree with me? To think through what--am I in a blind spot? And then to go out and do the work in a way that we can sustain the work personally and professionally. De Maria: Totally. And I think--I think it does take a community to affect that change. And going back to what you mentioned earlier about diversity versus inclusion, the marriage of those concepts, it requires us to include others and to make those decisions, not just as a sole member, but as a collective. Blanshan: Yeah. I think--I think critical friends are essential. So, yeah I, we always learn more from people who are willing to, I'll speak for myself. I always learn more from people who are willing to say, “I disagree with you, and here's why. And I think you're missing something.” Because that gets me, that stops me before I might do something that might have an impact that completely contradicts what my hope was. So. De Maria: Absolutely. Well thank you for sharing that with us, and that's gonna be the end of this interview. Bridget again, can't say enough how much I appreciate you taking time out for this. I think this is gonna be an excellent resource for anyone interested in the history of the Cross-Cultural Center or just looking for some inspiration in joining the field of student advocacy and social justice. So once again, thank you. Blanshan: Thank you, Michael. It was a pleasure. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2023-11-17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blanshan, Bridget. Interview, April 26, 2023. Description An account of the resource Bridget Blanshan is Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos. In this interview, Blanshan discusses her educational & professional background, student leadership development, and diversity and inclusivity on campus. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bridget Blanshan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-26 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bridget Blanshan License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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