1 10 83 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c59f8053d23c1136aee09f68020277ec.pdf 6cb14bd4ab0132b818c6e2422620a6fc PDF Text Text ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Jake Peirce: I'm speaking today with Mrs. Alexa Clauson from the Adobe Home Tour – among her many accomplishments – and so I would like to start with just a little background information, if you don't mind. Where are you from? What got you to where you could start with the Adobe Home Tour? Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I'm happy to be here since we only have an hour, I'll try to do the mini version. <affirmative> I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master's degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master's degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son – I had him late in in life – so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn't too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn't have historical societies; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary's in elementary school, there's another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who's just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He's Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I'm like, no, it's not. It must be his wife. <laugh> So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, “Hey, you know, Tom who's collection of books here, you're doing craftsmen?” Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, “We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they're all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.” And I'm like, “[O]kay, Tom, let's do a tour.” And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won't this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5”x11” piece of paper off a copier, and that's kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It's funny, and of course I was thinking, “[O]h, he'll get over it.” You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 1 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don't own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn't. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there's a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I'm probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were – in your role with the state parks – you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, –and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you're saying – what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. <laugh> But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn't as free to do some Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 2 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He's second generation – grew up in Escondido through his business and his family – they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes – although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning – in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That's my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he'll have a different, <laugh> a different take on it. Peirce: <laugh> No, that's absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don't mind. I'm very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved – especially in the beginning – how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren't just like “Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.” This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven't thought about it. Some of it was Tom's personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, “Should we call this one? Should we call that one?” but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, “My friends tell me you're crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?” <laugh> so maybe there's just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I'm really taking a guess at this; I hadn't really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence –the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother's Day home tour – so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn't as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn't just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it'll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother's Day home tour, and I think they're on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn't kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, “Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.” So, I really didn't think about it and it's not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they've seen their house, they get it. They really think it's something special. That's just my take on it. Peirce: Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 3 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, “Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.”? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this – like just a couple of mom and pop <laugh> people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections – is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it ‘cherry picked’ the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views – and many of the adobe homes have incredible views – and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They're bulldozed for these – you know, it's probably not polite to call McMansions; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they've reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There's no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it's almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our “Gee, you, you're not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.” Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather – Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father – they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don't know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 4 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn't, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor – and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere – and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn't the only place where Adobe houses were built – and are built even to this day – as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, “We’re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?” Clausen: Well, I think we would've loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you're a paid staff putting on something like this-Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we've been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society; there's a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we'd like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn’t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do – the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are – but we're restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don't have the facility to make it happen, whether it's personnel or whatever. There's always a friction, there's always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there's the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, “We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?” Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 5 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady – Mary Del May – she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I'll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, “Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That'll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.” So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don't let people stand too long. “Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.” <laugh> We're like, oh, we can't sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don't like, suggestions, they work, they don't, we've tried some things. So yeah, I'd say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you've benefited from, as you've done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that's really been honestly, and correct me if I'm wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it's moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people “Would you have your home on the tour?” They're shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here's some information, which they've developed a little “Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.” And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, “Hey, do you want to be on our tour,” came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It's always a little growing thing. I think you're right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Peirce: Absolutely, and that's incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like “I'd like to learn more about that” or did you fight any struggles? Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 6 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Clausen: You know, we're always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we're lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of... like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out “looky loos”: people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in – for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people's homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested – either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists – they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden – not by any means – but they're there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs; like that's what I'm just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we've tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: “The Romance of the Rancho” where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they're close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we've brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, “You know, we've always heard about Pauma Mission and we've never gone. It was a chance to go out there.” Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there's an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It's fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, “Hey, you're an adobe house, you can be on it.” Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We've had some very simple, honest homes and then we've had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we've had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that's always a consideration, although we've had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we've talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we're really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we've had homeowners who've come back and say, you know, now we're ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I'll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area – that were drivable. I think we had a Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 7 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John – our webmaster – sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you're 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say “Let's just go get lunch. We won't drive out there.” So we've tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven't missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We've had people who, as they've moved forward, say we just can't do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn't get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We've gotten two thirds of the way and we've had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we've had previous homes on the tour again. We've had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they've made changes. They've learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they're not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there's been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I've done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we've gotten really lucky. They're walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they'd come back as we're developing the history of their home, or they'd get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we've had a combination. I'd say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I've been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties – they were told about it by the realtor – the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they're looking at. I'd say I've done a good portion of the research. Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don't wanna say they're not important, right? They are important, they're historical in their own way. But it’s not like Greta Garbo lived there; they're just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I've been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let's say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we've been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we've had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled; they're still there. We've had homes where the windows were yet not removed; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 8 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era – Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized – how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century – we’ve found the Weir brothers and others – they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there's some amber inserted glass that's still from the original; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn't recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in; there's something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we're giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that's usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there's been extensive remodeling, we still recognize – I'll just use Weir for example because they're so well-known – some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven't really had homes that were entirely gutted. We've had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That's amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don't even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer; sometimes it's kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we're always thrilled for the feedback; not everyone's happy on our tours, of course not. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 9 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there's not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it'd be wonderful to run it two days. It'd be wonderful to raise more money, but there's just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people's understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we've done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We'd like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does... there are communities we still think we can keep going. Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you've created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved – this is something that's stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there's a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we'd all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they'll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven't touched on that you'd like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information – he's very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he'll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there's a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that's interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we're out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That's correct. Yes. Peirce: Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 10 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It's been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It's been fascinating. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 11 2022-05-13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clausen, Alexa. Interview transcript. April 12, 2022. Description An account of the resource Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alexa Clausen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacob Peirce Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) 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I'm here with Max Disposti. Thank you for joining me, Max. How are you today? Max Disposti: I'm honored to be here. Absolutely good. It's a beautiful day out there. Even though I haven't been able to go and see the light <laugh> <affirmative> I mean, at the center working, but we're all very excited. Yes. Teater: Yeah. Great. For the recording, can you introduce yourself what your name is? Your pronouns, when you were born, and what you do for work? Disposti: Okay. My name is Max Disposti, pronouns he/him. I'm a cisgender gay male and I was born in Rome in 1968, long time ago. And I am the executive director and founder of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. Teater: Awesome. And what did your parents do for work? Disposti: Oh, my parents now are retired because they're 85 years old. They're still alive and they live in Rome, Italy, but they were both working class individuals, actually my mom stayed at home even though she was an activist all her life, very active feminist in the city of Rome and my father as well. Teater: Well, that's awesome. <affirmative> Can you tell me about, maybe a little bit about your childhood and some of your educational experience? Disposti: Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that's five years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn't have any academic education, so to speak, they couldn't pursue a higher education, but also they were during the Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 1 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 war at the time <affirmative> even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there's always that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that's dominated by Catholic Church. Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives. When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on the street. <affirmative>. So that's my childhood. That's who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights, immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I'm in love with someone. I didn't want to lose them. <affirmative> so that's a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn't go back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn't share too much. Teater: No, that's great. I love this. Can you tell me a bit more about your education? What did you study? Disposti: When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can’t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that would have exposed them as well. Right. <affirmative> It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person, especially in a religious country like that, there's always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you're gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you're in Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, “oh my gosh, I would never make it.” These people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn't really for me as well. I went into university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my bachelor[s] over there, but didn't do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old, then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn't need the academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had to tell you it was money well invested, even though I'm still paying for it, <laugh> after so many years. Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 2 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that's my academic background pretty much. Teater: Man, you've lived such a fascinating life. <laugh> So you touched on it a little bit, but what was your career like before the North County Resource Center? Disposti: The north county resource center, I would say around 2007 or 2008 is when I made that decision to do what I do, even though at first was not a paid position. I needed to save as much as I could, reserve anything, because I didn't know where this was going to take me. <affirmative>. Prior to that, when I came in the U.S. even though I was very active and volunteering for different things, I was fortunate enough-- at the beginning I was working in hotel, the hotel industry, I used to be in San Francisco for four years. Then it was a little bit of dot com, I was doing a lot of translating because I speak Spanish and Italian. I was doing a lot of translating from one and to another with platforms, Yahoo platform and so forth. That was a very well-paid job. <affirmative> Even at the time that helped me out a little bit uplift my resources, but I wasn't documented at the time. I couldn't really invest into school or nothing because I knew I just couldn't do that to that point. And so I married my previous husband at the time in San Francisco, we decided to come down here because he had family members in the military. And when we moved to Oceanside was the place where it was cheaper and affordable. I did like the beach. I liked the fact it was Southern California. I bought at first into the life okay. Once I finish with my own immigration status, which lasted 10 years struggle. So that's why I'm very, not only sympathetic, but not many people understand about what it means to be an immigrant in this place where I had at that point, the money and the lawyers to fight the system and an education, but if it was running away from any other country from famine, war, or violence, there is no way that the U.S. will have offered me an alternative there is just no one, legally speaking. There is not an alternative if you become undocumented to fix your record, really not even if you marry someone. It's just not the way it is anymore. It took me 10 years. Yes. I feel privileged because I was able to go through all of that. In the process, I started working to make some money because my dream was always to open a community center. <affirmative> And as I was making the money, I joined some real estate firms. I was a broker and I became very successful because I was this guy that was very realistic. I didn't have dreams of screwing people over to make money. My dream was building LGBT center. I think people saw that in me, that was honest that sometimes I told people, don't buy this house because really too big for you, is not gonna be a good choice, because then you're gonna have this huge mortgage. I was having this conversation with folks, and I think the more I was honest with them, the more business was coming to me. I was doing really well at a certain point, I needed to make the decision to pull the plug and go into unemployment. Mind you I didn't say thousands of thousands of dollars, just enough to go by that unemployment lasted. I mean, I was unemployed for two years because the center couldn't pay me. I mean, it was me <affirmative> and starting a center I needed full-time dedications on everything from gathering resources, putting people together, dynamics of power that you encounter, opening the door and having someone there eight hours a day, it was a huge, huge undertaking. But I never felt alone. I always felt fortunate that people trusted me in the process. And also my leadership style has always been very sharing. The resources was never about me, my name and putting my name in top of the things I did, even though at the beginning, it shows a lot me and the center. My name is very linked to it, but mostly I started the center, but I always bring the honor, the credit to the many people, many, many people that made the center what it is today. So that's how it brought to me. I brought those corporate leaderships into this business. I brought my nonprofit academic research. I brought my life experience as Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 3 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 an activist. And I think everything just worked together. I was there for the right reason and not to rush things through. And I just had hope in my community here that things will have become like they are today or even more. Yeah, the dream's still on and we still have a lot of things we want to accomplish. <affirmative> Teater: In terms of the LGBT community, what was that like in North County? Because I know North County doesn't really have much of a presence as far as LGBT representation, as much as say Downtown or Hillcrest has. Disposti: <affirmative> It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We elected people that didn't wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they've done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to 2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they didn't have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn't believe that there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we're not doing anything special. We're just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn't realize at first the impact we're having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us, seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos <laugh>. And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a full part of the community, that's always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one, when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the mainstream of the LGBT community. <affirmative> Our board was composed by trans folks, the support Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 4 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks. And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt me. Now he's 22, so he's already grown up and he's a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don't exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to enhance the voices. So those that haven't been, that have been left out for so many years, because when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They were my friends <affirmative>. When people tell me, “Oh, I dunno, what's going on now? All of a sudden, everybody is trans or whatever,” say, “no, it's always been like that.” We always been around. I say, we, even though I'm a cisgender gay guy, because I've been blessed to be educated through the experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells me that I say “You haven't looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long.” I would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum, LGTQI or that wasn't the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors, no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to bring home what we’ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, “Oh wow, you guys were right. You were always there.” And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we're embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they're being ask[ed] to be part of our community because many of them are, and that we've been advocating with them now at the children hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the forefront and when we weren't, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three, four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it's part of everyday challenges is what I love the most to be honest, because I don't wanna come to a point where I say, “Oh, I think I know everything, and now I got all of my boxes checked.” Nothing else comes through when it's not true. Life is always moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That's how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives because they didn't go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson. We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn't wanna live anymore. There wasn't just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of pain. Some of us didn't have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. <laugh> Teater: Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 5 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 No, it's okay. I appreciate you sharing with me. I'll shift to maybe a lighter subject <laugh> for a quick second. What are some of the resources and services that are offered at the North County Resource Center and how have they changed over time? Disposti: Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn't have need assessment. We didn't know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, “Hey, if more than three people come forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?” they say that means it's needed. So, we'll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So, we're never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were. So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped in there because it was the only big room. And I say, “Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now they're gonna shut us down.” Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating more safety for our community. So sometimes we're like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years older than the kid that you're serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you're not there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, “Hey, I'm an active fifteen year old person, I’m sexually active with this person. Maybe they're at my age or a year older.” How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us opening their hearts because they knew we weren’t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we’re also mandated a reporter, right. We've done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because maybe they're dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If they don't agree with that, we don't let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is not a space where they're invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. <affirmative> That's one of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn't afford to close. We receive a lot of support from foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 6 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 can't find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-onone, “Hey, help me go through this,” family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but they're usually mostly social, like let's come together for an all queer and non-binary or let's come together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we're creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We'll have to respond to that. Teater: Oh, I love that. What are some of the challenges that you and the center face today? Disposti: I would say challenges, but also opportunities. <affirmative> I do believe that LGBT centers are the Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but supporting those spaces. I think it's a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to commit to, because as we know, as it's happening, if you take away resources from a Planned Parenthood, that's why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they're left to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people that they're being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn't <affirmative> for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be open nowadays. And <affirmative> the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And now it's eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And that's just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space for thousands of people. And that's true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth. <affirmative> While it's good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent. You don't want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it's important that, especially in California, where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don't provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually assaulted that are queer, they don't go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they're in poverty, they come to us when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse, they come to us because they know we're not here to judge. I would say that's why we’re the planned parenthood of the community <affirmative> [be]cause it's an essential vital resource. The challenges are that we're not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though they're in California. And we know that we're a little bit more protected here. We still have people at the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even though it's not here geographically speaking. That's the challenges that in a time where communication goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous administration has caused, we're still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 7 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that again, instead we are (inaudible) <affirmative> I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our favor, including a history of resilience, but it's tough. It's tough for a lot of people. <affirmative> (Unintelligible) will fight because it's value our own existence, but for a lot of people don't have the means the energy <affirmative> and we will have to fight for them too. <affirmative> I see a lot of challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight, which is total bullshit <affirmative> when it's actually through the opposite. I think that's the challenge of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it's part of the North American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. <affirmative> I can say that because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don't even realize the, the level of competitive individualism that's being created here in North America to a point that now we have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. <affirmative> I'm really concerned about those dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be <affirmative> That goes along with building an LGBT center. Teater: Yeah. You touched on this a little bit earlier, but given the history of policing with the LGBTQ+ community even in San Diego, how do you feel that police and sheriff trainings are received? Disposti: I'm gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and there <affirmative> I don't wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn't be there in my opinion. I don't have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don't like the status quo <affirmative> of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don't have any confidence in that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don't dehumanize you because I think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices with their family and many of them risk their life, <affirmative> for something that [they’re] living. I'm not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that we sit at the table I'm always very clear about: I don't think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don't think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like betrayed by the fact that “I'm a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it.” But the problem that they can't forget or separate themselves from the uniform they're wearing and what has represented for our, it's still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular. Any region is different, but-- <affirmative>. What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it's your word against Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 8 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 theirs. So that happens a lot of time <affirmative> on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it. That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn't say it's a statement to my organization, even though I would say it's a common vision. I think collaborations with police, it's important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted to be the force that serves the community, it doesn't protect status quo. I know some people might say radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our side. Teater: Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I'm not too familiar with their policing practices. Disposti: America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it’[s] like, “Okay, we don't need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It's not to lead the LGBT movements into propolicing know against policing.” Right? It's a different experience with police when I was, even though it was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) <affirmative>. There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It's a different comparison. Of course, I don't live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family's there and they're still active. I definitely have a sense of what's going on, but <affirmative>, it's just a different thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the normalcy, that being queer is not anything that's out there, but you know, you can be a police officer queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they're using them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD [University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven't earned that spot. I'm just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because I'm truthful. I don't beat the bush around. I'm just gonna tell I'm gonna work with you and everything else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that's okay with me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get money from policing <affirmative> San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose their will on, or social organizations and organizing. <affirmative> To ask, for instance, going back in the merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it's very not conducive of a good relationship. It's just a parade. <affirmative> I don't feel it's very-- so I'm sorry if I took you a little bit off, but this is-- Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 9 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 Teater: No, you're good. I'm right there with you. Disposti: It's such a current happening. Maybe people watching this many years from now, I wonder what they will think of it, but right now I feel that we're not there. They have to earn their space. And also let's remember talking about our region when you have a pride parade, you have people coming from all over the county, you have people coming from LA Mesa, Fallbrook in places where policing, the impact of policing on the streets is not as kind of transparent as it could be in any other spaces where we earn that. Right. Like in Hillcrest <affirmative> right. We need to be mindful of the experience of our queer people of policing in Chula Vista or other places, not just San Diego proper. What you see the police marching, is not everyone has the same reaction, and you cannot normalize policing by just marching an parade. You need to work every single day. So that's my-Teater: Yeah, exactly. So, what is the center's relationship with military members of the community then? [Be]cause I know they sort of have a kinship, but like they're different, but they're not, but they are. Disposti: Well. Because we cannot, I mean, I can tell you my personal stance about <affirmative> worth’s, and army, and the military. I think we spend too much money into it when this country struggle to support its own people that live here. Obviously, I'm not sympathetic about any choice of military that's military related, but when it comes to LGBT experience, I have to say the immediate impact of let's say the Marines here, the Navy on our immediate community is incomparable with policing. And what I mean, they're not doing racial profiling here in San Diego. They're not doing-- There is not a direct impact and <affirmative> for a city like Oceanside, which every family member has someone in the military. I would say that also understanding the importance of what they give and how they feel it. That is their dedication, their passion. We need to respect that. We serve a lot of veterans, a lot of military folks, but many of these folks, LGBT usually we serve them because they struggle through the military services. They went through <affirmative> health, sexual assault abuses that could never report from their commanders, <affirmative> transphobia, homophobia, punishments of any kind. We support folks because these are our people. <affirmative> It's not my place to tell them where they should go. We meet them where they are. <affirmative> But definitely it's a different experience. I would say I met amazing folks that actually have been a resource for the center and helping others from the army, from some of the Marines or the many, many veterans that they are a part of our volunteer team. I'm sure some of them might not share my views. These are personal view, again, not the center view, but definitely we did think about building a center in a military community. You could completely subject to it and be dictated on how to express your sentiment around military actions. You can be who you are and supporting the queer people around the world. That's my goal as a human rights and civil rights activist that I-- doesn't believe in any borders, or in any particular nationality, I focus on the help that my folks need in the entire world. If the America gets in the middle of that, then I will definitely denounce it but it's beyond the scope of the center. It's more my personal perspective. <affirmative> I think we are all connected in so many different ways. Teater Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 10 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 <affirmative> I love that. I have a couple more questions. I'm [going to] switch gears a little bit. What does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now? Disposti: <laugh> It means a lot. I can't believe it. And I don't look back too many times, when I do I get emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we're[employees] twelve. <affirmative> And just look around the table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn't even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of me in terms of, there's so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North County. I don't feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it’s just not, at this moment, practically possible. It takes resources. <affirmative> Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can't imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We're not in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it's not an easy thing to do. I would say I'm proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience, whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in so many different ways. So, yeah. Teater: Oh, that's so nice. During your time as an activist, and this'll be my final question, during your time as an activist, what has brought you the most joy? Disposti: Oh gosh. I don't think I can single out one. Teater: What were some of the experiences? Disposti: Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream. Really so many, I've been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center. The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don't mean in such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don't [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn't survive without our support that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know, you're on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can't pin it down, but mostly had to do with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So-- Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 11 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 Teater: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention before we sign off? Disposti: No, it's hard to recollect now, but I'm sorry for getting through the emotions. Teater: Oh no, I love it all. It's perfect. Disposti: You know, me? Yeah. I don't shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That's what I [want to] say that I know how important it's because we're doing an archive here at the center as well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it's a very tedious, slow process that takes years in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT center, but, you know, yeah. That's what we got. Thank you. Thank you. Teater: Thank you. Well, I'm [going to] stop the recording now. Disposti: Perfect. Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 12 2022-10-21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Disposti, Max. Interview transcript. April 26, 2022. Description An account of the resource Max Disposti is the founder and Executive Director of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. In this interview, Max discusses his upbringing in Rome, Italy as a queer male and his experience coming to the U.S. and his quest to open the Resource Center. Max Disposti also talks about the parallels in how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Italy in comparison to America. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Max Disposti Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource MJ Teater Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-26 Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights North County LGBT Resource Center Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant North County (San Diego County, Calif.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-14 Activists and activism Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience LGBTQIA+ experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ca6f54f3772da765d27df005f357db44.pdf e3319aac7d71629d4dc452c92d58367b PDF Text Text LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Peirce: Well, I would hope so. Otherwise, this whole thing is caput <laugh>. Okay. <laugh> So, good evening. My name is Jacob Peirce. I am a first year graduate student at Cal State San Marcos in the history program. And this is part of a series documenting historical figures, impactful figures in North County, San Diego. Today I'm speaking with, Lizbeth Ecke. And, thank you for being here. Let's start real general, real broad. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you were born? Growing up, just general information like that. Ecke: I was born here in San Diego, born raised in Encinitas hold, <cough> pardon me. I grew up in the same house that my father grew up in. I went to the same elementary school and high school that my father went to. So I was friends with the children of the, some of the people that my father went to high school with. So pretty entrenched in Encinitas, California. I did move away for college and work for about 13 years, but other than that, I pretty much lived in Encinitas my entire life. Peirce: That's awesome. And you said that you went to the same the same school, you lived in the same house and your family was pretty established at that point within the community. Was it difficult growing up with the kind of expectations, of being in your family like that? Ecke: There may have been individual instances, but no, not really. I mean, Encinitas was still a pretty small town when, I was growing up. I mean, Interstate 5 didn't even go through till I was about 11 years old. Most people were in flower farming like our family was. And, so I mean, people probably knew my name without knowing me, but, and that probably ended up mostly being good. But, so no, I mean I would say later on there have been challenging times when we, as a family have wanted to do things and we've gotten a lot of bad press. I mean, I know that my mother and grandmother, had a harder time than I ever remember having. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: Dealing with, harder in the sense of, people being rude to them or mean, or those kinds of things. But I can't say that I remember much of any of that. Peirce: Was there specific reasons for that treatment that they received? Do you remember them saying anything about that? Ecke: About, well, I know that there was a newspaper in town called The Coast Dispatch, that the man who owned it really, he didn't like our family. And I mean, I've heard various stories about why he didn't, the one that seems to have made the most sense to me, but I don't really know whether it's the real reason or not is because he owned a lot of, real estate right in Downtown Encinitas. And when they were putting through I-5, the original plan was to just run it along, down the coast highway. And, as it ended up being in some other, places farther north of here, and my grandfather was one of the people who fought pretty hard to say, let's not destroy all of the downtowns of all of these, you know, Carlsbad and Solana Beach and Del Mar and Encinitas. Let's put it inland a little ways and keep our downtowns. And my grandfather was on the winning side of that. I mean, it wasn't because my grandfather or grandparents owned any land, particularly in the right of way of where I-5 ended up. They just, he just thought it was made more sense. So he fought for that and again, was on the winning side. And so the guy who owned The Coast Dispatch was pissed off because he was expecting to make all this money from selling all of his right of way in Downtown Encinitas. There may have been other reasons that maybe that, you know, he was a powerful man in town. My grandfather was a powerful man in town Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 1 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 and they maybe just didn't like each other, I don't know. But, you know, I know that my grandmother, was treated poorly at times, by people that, you know, she was somebody who really cared about and, tried to be helpful. And, you know, people that during the depression that needed food, bringing food to the school and doing things like that, and there was any number of people that didn't want her help because she was an Ecke and that was painful for her. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I can imagine like that's a wild thing to think about. Did you, speaking of your mother and your grandmother, what inspiration, if any, did you take from [th]em, in your personal life going forward as a professional woman, as someone who growing up in this family, did you take any lessons from them? And, and if so, how did you kind of, feel it, that you represented the family in that way? Ecke: Well, you know, my grandmother got married at 19 and had her first kid at 20, so she didn't ever, she didn't have anything more than a high school education. My mother did go to San Diego State and, did have a degree. But both of them, along with, my father, maybe a little less, my grandfather was very big <unintelligible> [into] giving back. And it was always something that my parents talked about, but they also, they didn't just talk about it. They did it. And they, my grandmother was very involved with the Solana Beach Presbyterian Church and did a lot out of help through that, there was an orphanage down in Tijuana that she was, very supportive of. And I remember her when I was a child, her loading up her car and barreling on down to Tijuana to bring them whatever it was that she had in her car that week or month or whatever it was. My mother was very, was involved in lot of things. She was always on the PTA. We were all in 4H growing up and she was a 4H leader. She volunteered for children's hospital. She later on when us kids weren't at home or were, you know, didn't need as much attention all the time she was involved with Planned Parenthood, she was a huge Planned Parenthood supporter. She, I'm trying to think of the other, Neurosciences Institute. I think it was called G <unintelligible> I can't remember the name of it, but she was constantly involved with lots of different organizations, voices for children. She was very involved with San Diego State, which is where she went to school with the library at San Diego State. So I think that what I took away from that was that, it's important to give back and everybody can give back, but if you are somebody of, means and, are known within your community, it's even more important to, to give back that that's a commitment, an obligation really. And, I heard about it growing up and I saw it growing up. And so that's probably what I took from it more than, I mean, took from them more than anything was that they didn't just talk the talk, they walked the walk. Peirce: Yeah. I was about to, I was about to ask you about the, whether that was something that was, verbally taught to you. Like, if it was like, “Hey, this is what we do,” or you just kind of learn from example in regards to that, but you kind of, you kind of answered that. Ecke: Yeah. Peirce: Most of the press that I was able to read, mostly focuses on the men, in your family. Was that frustrating for, <unintelligible> you can go ahead and answer if you got something. Ecke: Well, I mean, I don't know that I think that it's, pretty standard for a, certainly for my grandparent’s generation and for my parent’s generation. That’s what you did, even if a, a wife or whatever was very involved in a business, you generally look to the husband for, you know, and they Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 2 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 were the person that got all the glory and that's just the way our society has been set up. In this generation my brother probably has had more publicity than I have just because he is the one that owned the Poinsettia Business. And so that naturally, I mean, he got a lot of press just from own owning the Poinsettia Business. He's also probably much more, comfortable in front of the camera because he's been doing it for so long. So, when we are both in a situation and somebody wants one of us to speak, I will defer to him.So, so that to some degree would be my fault, for not taking the spotlight when I could all the time. But yes, I mean, I think that just as a woman in society, it is sometimes frustrating, to have grown up and seen all the work that my grandmother and my mother did for the family business. And when you talk about the family business, you don't really hear much about them. I mean, some of that's getting righted a little bit, now, but it's certainly they didn't ever get any, any <unintelligible> whatever they, nobody called them out as doing great things when they were doing them. Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. Which is, which is a shame, honestly. <Unintelligible> I guess kind of where I want to go with that though, you brought up some of the functions that your grandmother and your mother and that you have supported. Right? How do you decide what to support? Is there any-- is it really up to you? What you support? Do you speak to people in the family just to make sure that the family name is doing kind of-- is there like any collaboration or is it, whatever you decide to kind of support at that time? Ecke: No, I think that, I mean, I, I haven't ever felt like if there was something that I wanted to support that anybody had any issue with it. I mean, maybe just being part of the family, there is a sense of, I suppose if I ever thought that there was something I wanted to get involved with that might create a problem, I would probably have a conversation. My brother and sister and I are pretty close and have good relationships. So, I wouldn't expect that any of us would get involved with something that we thought how had an edge to it without first, at least, telling others. But you know, what I've been involved with has changed over the years when my kids were school age, I was very involved with their schools. I have, you know, I'm involved with, YMCA a that's named after my grandmother. I was involved with it a number of years ago. And there, if you read anything about me, it's probably how I got myself kicked off of the board, but, <laugh> the man that was running the, San Diego, the corporate Y for San Diego, he, didn't renew his contract and now there's somebody new. So then, so now I'm back on the board. <laugh>, I'm all, I mean, I also am very supportive of Planned Parenthood, not to the degree my mother was, my mother was on the board. That might be something I'd be willing to do down the road. So I think that, that what I'm involved with evolves as whatever else is happening in my life or around me. Peirce: Absolutely. And then that makes sense, right? Like, you know, you're not, it's not like you give, give a dollar one day and then you're just, you're guaranteed to give it the rest of your time. Right. It really kind of focuses as your, as your life moves from place to place <affirmative> and from stage to stage, you know, as I, you know, I'm a new dad, I never would've thought about all the things I do with my kid and donating and doing stuff for that kind of stuff that prior to having him right. Every stage, it kind of takes you to a different… Ecke: Well, this isn't, it isn't in your field of vision. Peirce: Absolutely. And that's understandable. Right. We only can see here to here. Right. We can't see the full picture unless you're in it sometimes. Do you mind if I pivot to, to the Poinsettias? I just have a few questions on that. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 3 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Ecke: Absolutely. Peirce: I never grew up in a family that had like any sort of a business or anything like that. My parents were teachers. But were you interested in horticulture at all? Were you interested in flower, like any sort of growing flowers? Ecke: Well, yeah. I mean, the house that I grew up in it was right in the middle of the Poinsettia [fields]. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: So it was, you know, and I had done a lot of work for, I worked in the tissue culture lab at the ranch. I worked in the greenhouses many summers. I, we, all three of us grew up there was never a family vacation that we took that we didn't go visit greenhouse customers where ever it was in the world. And, when I had studied overseas in Mexico and in Germany, I've gone and visited flower customers on my own. So I was involved with it. But I also knew that wasn't gonna be the career I was going to choose. I mean, and not that anybody said I couldn't, but, you know, my grandfather's name was Paul Ecke Sr. My father was Paul Ecke Jr. and my brother's Pauly III and my name isn't Paul <laugh>. So, and that being said, my sister and I were had ownership interest in the ranch as much as my brother did, but we also made a determination, I don't know, 30 years ago or more that, the ranch really needs to have a singular head of it, it was not a businesses that was gonna get managed very well with a, you know, three people trying to do it. So we sold our interest to my brother and that made sense. I was on the board of directors for the ranch, so I was still involved. And my brother and I, I mean, any time my brother had big decisions to make, he would talk to me. So I may have not had my name on the company, but I did feel very involved with it. And you know there's a Los Angeles flower market where we would sell poinsettias every year. And I did that as did my brother and my sister and now I'm chairman of the board of that flower market. And so I had been involved in the flower business pretty much all my life, one way or another, I wasn't the face of the Poinsettia Ranch. Peirce: But you enjoyed working with the flowers you enjoyed working with your hands? Ecke: Oh yeah, no, absolutely. You know, and now we, as a family have the flower fields in Carlsbad. So I'm still, involved with, well, not growing the flowers, but involved with the floral culture business, and being on the board of the American Forest Exchange. I am attuned to what’s going on within that part of the sector of the world and I like it and I always have. Peirce: Awesome, awesome. I can’t even keep plants alive in my own house, so that just having an entire farm stresses me out just the thought of it. Ecke: <laugh> Oh, well, I've never run a farm. So that, that… Peirce: Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. <laugh> Ecke: I do, I did have a minor in horticulture in undergraduate school, but that was, as far as I went with that. Peirce: What was your major, if you don't mind me asking? Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 4 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Ecke: It was business. Peirce: Business. Ecke: And then I got an MBA in real estate and finance, so-Peirce: Absolutely. You've mentioned multiple arenas where you are on the board of directors or even the chairman of the board and stuff like that. Have you as a woman faced any pushback, any friction from people when you take these kind of leadership positions? Ecke: Well, most of the things that I've been on, I would say, well, no, I mean, when I was first, went on to the, American Forest Exchange Board, I was the first, I wasn't the very first woman that had ever been on the board, but I was the first woman to be on the board for quite some time. And I would, I will say that it was probably for the other men then that were on the board. My father had just recently passed away and he had been chairman of the board. And then I, took over, I took his seat on the board. So I think that, and I was much younger than the majority of the men on the board that isn't necessarily the case now, but it was then, which is almost 20 years ago now. I think that they initially had, they didn't have an issue with me being on the board, but I think that they were kind of surprised that I had an opinion or, that I took issue with some of the things that they, wanted to do. Or so I wouldn't see, say that I ever felt like they were trying to figure out a way to get me off the board, but I do think that there were some times when they were frustrated that I wasn't just playing along with whatever they wanted to do. Other boards that I'm on the YMCA board there's been women on that board long before I was ever on it. And, so I never felt anything there. We have a family foundation board, that my aunt has been on for as long as I can remember. And, and I've been on it for 40 years. So really no, I mean where I had a lot of pushback when I was first came back and worked for the family, I was doing a lot of leasing and tenant improvement work and construction management. And this was back in the eighties, late eighties. And there were a lot of construction guys that really were not very excited about taking orders from, you know, a short woman or probably a woman in general, but then this little, tiny person with a high squeaky voice, I can't <unintelligible> anybody absolutely wouldn't do what I asked them to do. It may have just taken me be more forceful than I needed to be. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: To do that. But you know, my father was to his credit. He really promoted, my sister and myself to do whatever we wanted to, to do. And, when I, I remember one time when I was probably 15 working up in Los Angeles at the flower market over Christmas, [be]cause that's the only time we would've been up there with the poinsettias. And my father put me a in charge of the phone orders. And so I remember, some big customer called and asked for my father and my father said, no, I don't have time, you just deal with them. And I went back and the conversation kind of went on. And then he finally said, I want to speak with a real Ecke. And so, I then went out, I mean, [be]cause again I'm 14 or 15 years old and I go back out and I said, dad, he says, he'll only place this order with a real Ecke. And my father said, you go back in there and said, tell him if he wants to buy poinsettias he is going to buy them from you. And he's gonna give the order to you. And you are just as real of an Ecke as anybody else. And so I went back in there and told the guy and he was none too happy, but he did give me the order. So my father did things like that really, he may not have believed that when he was 20 years old. But I think that my mother did a very good job of convincing him and teaching him that he should be paying attention to his Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 5 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 daughters as much as his son. And he did credit her with that. He would be the first one to say that he had a good relationship with his daughters because my mother taught him how to do that. Peirce: That's amazing. That's really awesome. Especially that, that kind of support, that young, how, how, early did you become, involved in the, in the family business? Like from as long as you can remember, or…? Ecke: Oh, I, well, I mean actually working, getting a paycheck was, you know, probably fifteen dollars. But even before that, when we were little again, our house was right there, the middle of the ranch and we'd go out and my father would put me to work, you know, folding, putting together pieces of different pieces of paper and stapling them and folding them to go in boxes of poinsettias that were being shipped out mostly as a way to keep me busy and out of other people's way. But I mean, I was probably doing that from the time I was seven or eight years old, or he would pay us, like a penny to pick up trash, to walk around the whole ranch and pick up trash and he would pay us, I dunno, 10 cents an hour or something ridiculous to do that. But, so always my parents were big believers in working and knowing the value of money. And my mother had grown up in a fairly poor family. Her family had moved out to California when she was 15 and lived in, government subsidized housing where UCSD [University of California San Diego] is now, they’d moved because my grandmother, I knew that she had, she knew, wanted her children to go to college and California back then had, still does have, a good college system, but it was virtually free. And, you know, my mother had two brothers and a sister and, you know, she went to San Diego State. She had one brother that became a doctor and another brother that became a veterinarian. And they all benefited from the school systems in, in San Diego, but that's why they moved. And my mother worked a lot from whenever. I mean, from the time she could remember, so she went, they lived through being homeless during the depression and other things. So my mother brought that to the table for us in the sense of understanding that you can't be wasteful, you need to think about, you know, how you spend your money. And my parents were on the same page with all of that you know, just because you have money doesn't mean that you need to flaunt it or that you have to spend it all just because you have it. And it, you know, there's other people that might need it more than you do, and it's your responsibility to help out with that. So I feel like I got, fairly grounded in the understanding of that. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. You, you've spoken a couple times about, growing up directly on, on the ranch <affirmative> and when you were a kid, I'm assuming that, Encinitas was a little bit more rural than it is now, not rural, but just less developed. Ecke: Yeah. Peirce: How has it been watching it grow over the years? Do you miss old Encinitas somewhat? Do you, you wish that things were a little bit different? Do you, do you just enjoy seeing time and things progress? Like what, what is your viewpoint on that? Ecke: Well, yeah, I mean, if, if Encinitas could be the Encinitas that I grew up in, I thought that that was fabulous. If I was really living in that would, I think is, is as fabulous, you know, you get nostalgic about things. But I could, when I was growing up and I had my horse, I could ride my horse down Encinitas Blvd. all the way to the beach and ride my horse on the beach with my other friends who had horses. And, it was you… <unintelligible> So, I mean, there's things like that, that I'm nostalgic for. But places change. I mean, you can't expect things to not change. And, for the most part, I think that the way Encinitas has changed is pretty good given, you know, the options. I mean, there wasn't, there isn't a Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 6 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 way that Encinitas was gonna stay the way that it was, but it was a lovely place to grow up. I mean, I, again, I knew there was like two elementary schools and, you know, one high school. And when I went, graduated from high school, there was only one high school from Del Mar to through Encinitas. So we, all went to San Dieguito together. My high school graduating class in 1975 was the last year that we were together, [be]cause then Torrey Pines was built and they opened up Torrey Pines [High School]. So, I mean it was, it was a very close-knit community. And it was, you know, nice to know you go into a grocery store, the drug store and you know, it's, somebody's father that's there or, you know, <affirmative> and that, that was a nice thing. And I, and I do miss that, but I suppose if that was super important to me, I could go find some other very small community that I could have that. Peirce: No, absolutely. I, I mean, I grew up in, I grew up in Riverside and in the, the eighties and nineties and I still remember driving to, to school and, running into, into, shepherds herding sheep across the road. And now every single part of that is, is track housing that they built that are, you know, the cookie cutter houses and, you know, you can get nostalgic for it, but I, I can completely understand like you, you do what you do, what, what you can with what it is. People need to live. People need houses and people need to, things grow and things change, but it was just interesting to, you know, you you've been living in that, you lived in that same house as your, as your, as your father and everything. And it's just like, you know, having it grow around that is, is a interesting perspective for sure. Ecke: Definitely, it definitely is. I mean, it's, it's weird because now I live in that, well, we've redone the house, but I live in what was my grandparents’ house that my grandparents built when my parents got married, they built a house and moved into the house. And then my parents moved into the house that my father grew up in. So I now live in the location, not the house anymore because we did rebuild it about 15 years ago, but to where my grandparents lived and, and it was a very different place then, because when I was growing up from my grandparents’ house, they were half a mile off of any public road in fact when I moved into this house 30 years ago, we were still Leucadia Boulevard, didn't go through. And so I was a half a mile off of any paved road. And, there the view, they had a view to the west, which we still have and a view to the east and there was nothing to the east, nothing at all. I mean, there was one light that you could see out there. And I remember that when I was a kid and now that's all houses. And just, you know, my father, this is totally a, a side note, but my father was also very involved with Cal[ifornia] State [University] San Marcos and getting it started and was very enthusiastic about it, which is, part of the reason that, my brother and I decided that that's what the family papers should, should go. It was, it kind of made sense because we had that connection. Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. We, we appreciate it. Not that I'm, I have a particular hand in it, but at the same time I, you know, as a, as a budding historian, I do appreciate <affirmative> people putting their things in the, in archives. Is it, I'm trying to figure out how I can word this… right. When you, when you've spoken about like how your grandfather advocated for the, the, the I-5 going where it, it goes and, and your father was, was, a, a large part of, of the, the beginnings of Cal State San Marcos, right? Is it, do you ever sit and think like, oh wow. Like my family has really impacted this, this area in, in many ways, like, you'd sit, be like, wow, like this is here in part because of the way that my family has kind of shaped the area. Do you ever think about that and how it like, is that an interesting thought to you or is that never occurred? Ecke: Yeah, it, no, it is. And I mean, it's something generally. I mean, I would say it's a sense of pride to know that, that the, our, we didn't, we as a family, didn't just come here and do what we did without Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 7 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 wanting to better our community and be involved in our community. I mean, I know that my parents and grandparents, when Encinitas was super tiny when they were here, they, there wasn't anything for anybody to do after work. I mean, there just wasn't anything here. So they figure out how to build a bowling alley in, in Downtown Encinitas. So people had a place to go versus I guess, just going to a bar or something. I mean that there was someplace something else to do. And, those kinds of things, I mean, there's nothing that there's no rules or laws or anything that says that you have to do that, but if you're gonna be part of a community, it's nice to know that your family helped build that community. So it, yeah, it is something that I think about, at times when, you know, there's, and there's enough things named after our family, there's a park in Encinitas. And then there's the YMCA and there's various other things that, remind me and maybe the community of what we've done. I would say that it is very different now than it was even 20 years ago. I mean, 20 years ago, I could, if I said my name was Ecke, pretty much anybody in Encinitas would've heard the name, they would, I mean, they might not know anything, but they would've heard the name. And, that isn't necessarily the case now, and that's not a bad thing, but it is, we are a much, larger and diverse community now. So, our family doesn't play the same kind of role as it used to. I mean, we still are very supportive of the community and we have a family foundation and most of the money, it's not a huge found[ation], but most of the money that comes out of that does get invested in, local charities, things like the YMCA or the community resource center or things like that. So we still are very involved, but again, because the community has grown so much, we're just not as big a, a part of it, which that's a good thing, [be]cause there's a lot more people out there that are also being supportive of things that need to be supported. Peirce: Absolutely. Given, your longstanding, presence in the community, as people have come in, have you. worked with other people who have tried to make a difference in the community? Have you tried to foster those kinds of, any sort of other, like, charitable services or anything like that? Has anyone come to you and been like, how do I start this? How do I do this and kinda look to you and have, have you mentored anyone in that regard? Ecke: No, I don't think that I could say that I've done that. And I don't think that I would certainly know how to tell anybody to start something. I mean, I've been involved with any number of things, like the Community Resource Center and the YMCA and grower school and any number of things. And so I've met a lot of other people within the community and I mean, the people that tend to volunteer and give money is just like almost anything in life. You've got, you know, 20% of the people doing 80% of the work or giving or whatever. I mean, it is, you see the same people over and over again. Peirce: Absolutely. What else do you, where do you see your role in the family moving forward? Where do you see your family moving forward in the community, given that you've said that it, as the community has grown, you've kind of, do you still see your family as a vital part of the community you have going forward? Ecke: No, definitely. My brother lives in Encinitas. I live in Encinitas, you know, we both raised our families in Encinitas. My sister lives in North Carolina, and we both still work in the family business. And I don't see that really changing at some point in the future. Some of the kids, my kids, my brother’s kids, my sister’s kids may wanna come back and be part of the family business. At some points somebody's gonna have to take over things from our, my generation of, people, but pretty much all of those in their twenties. So they're still figuring out what to do with their lives. But, I mean, my father was involved with in the community and pretty much until the day he died and my mother until her Alzheimer's got too bad, was involved with the community. So I never saw my parents just say, okay, I'm done now. And I'm gonna, you know, go just have fun all day every day and not be involved with my community. So, and Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 8 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 my husband grew up in a similar type of in environment. So I don't see us just, you know, retiring and doing, not being involved. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say has been, your proudest accomplishment? Whether it's in North County or just in general, what, what are you most proud of and in your career, in your life in general? Ecke: Well, I mean the most obvious answer would be my children. I mean, I've raised two children that are self-sufficient and, you know, both graduated from college. My son's getting his PhD now and, you know, they're supporting themselves and that in of itself is an accomplishment as a parent. I don't, I don't know that… There is a given thing that I could say that I would point to. I know I'm happy that I have been able to be part of the family business in a relevant way. It was something that was very important to my mother because she didn't always feel seen. And so she fought very hard for my sister and myself to be seen and to be heard. And I think it was, something that she was very proud of when, she had daughters that were involved and had a say in what was happening. And so I feel accomplished that I fulfilled something that was important to my mother. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: But I don't know that there's a specific, or that I can think of a specific thing that I've fought for and won on or something. Peirce: I mean it is a difficult question unless you clambered up Everest or something, it's like, well, you know, like I was just curious if there was anything specifically, you're like, oh yeah. You know, like, I won the World Cup or something, but you know what I mean? Ecke: No, none of those things. Peirce: Same here, so it's, yeah. I had one question I did have about the papers that you donated. Was it important for you and your family to have someplace, public for repository of that nature? Or what was, what was the reasoning behind that and why was that important to you guys? Ecke: Well, my mother was a big history buff. That probably was part of it, but-- It just, there was a hundred years of history of our family. Because you know, my grandfather, my grandparents first came down here in the early 1920s, and bought land. And Encinitas was basically a railroad station at that time. And was really one of the founding families. And there was, lots of records because we lived on the ranch, and we had all these various barns and buildings. I don't think much of anything ever got thrown away because you didn't have to throw it away. So there are, you know, receipt books and things from back in 1926, you know, and, I will say that my brother did a yeoman's job when, after he had sold the ranch property and sold the business, he spent a year going through all of those records and consolidating and organizing, a hundred year’s worth of stuff. And that was a huge job. And during that time we talked about, well, okay. I mean, it didn't seem right to just throw it away. I mean, but what do you do with it? I mean, that is really the question of what are the choices. So, we talked to various people there and I should remember his name, somebody who is a history professor there at Cal State San Marcos that was also on the board of the, historical society here in Encinitas. And we met with him, and I think it may have been his suggestion that we go and talk to the librarian out there. The other thing that we thought about was, San Diego State, because we had a connection there with my mother, Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 9 2022-09-27 �LIZBETH ECKE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 my father went to Ohio state, so that wasn't gonna make sense. I mean, but, you know, Cal State San Marco was here and in North County and we had a connection with it. And so that seemed to make the most sense because it just didn't feel right to just go rent a warehouse and put it in there who was ever gonna do anything with it. And, you know, I think that there is a wealth of knowledge in history, even if it's just mundane things that, you know, receipt books from back in 1926, and you can see what a bag of flower cost or whatever. I mean, you're a historian. And then those are the kinds of things that people can look back on and get real information about what life was like. And you know Cal State San Marcos was the one that was really venturing into new territory because they didn't have any, we were kind of the first one. We were all kinda learning together as to what this meant. I mean, we didn't, I mean, we knew that families gave papers to various learning institutions. I didn't ever know anybody personally who had, or, you know, what, like that really meant. So it's been a cool learning experience. Peirce: Oh, absolutely. As, like the idea of you were saying, like, we didn't know what to do with it. I was just like, in my head, I'm like, please don't throw it away, even though I know you didn't, like, I was just like, don't do it. <laugh> Well, as we wrap up here, is there anything about you, your life, your family, that you feel like I, we haven't touched on that you kind of wanna talk about today? Ecke: I don't know. There probably is, but nothing that is, jumping, to mind right now. Yeah, I mean, it’s been a fun ride. I don't think it's over. I feel very privileged to have been part of, or to be part of this family. it's nice to have history and grounding within a community. Again, my husband's family’s from New Orleans and he's like third generation on one side and five generations on the other side. So, he has a similar feeling and it's, there is something very grounding about being a part of someplace. And I feel very privileged to be part of Encinitas, [be]cause I do feel like I have a lot of invested in it and I guess has a lot invested in me and that's, that's been nice. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't, I don't think we could end know a better note than that. Lizbeth Ecke, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for giving us your perspective about your family and giving it to this project. My name is Jake Peirce and we are signing off now. Ecke: Great. Thank you. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins 10 2022-09-27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ecke, Lizbeth. Interview transcript. April 13, 2022. Description An account of the resource Narrator Lizbeth Ecke is the daughter of San Diego horticulturist Paul Ecke Jr., who contributed to the popularity of the poinsettia plant. Lizbeth Ecke also is on the board for the YMCA and the American Forest Exchange. In this interview, Lizbeth discusses her childhood growing up in Encinitas, CA and working alongside her father in the flower business, and her experience as a women working in a male dominated industry in comparison to her father and brother. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lizbeth Ecke Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacob Peirce Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-13 Subject The topic of the resource Businesswomen Floriculture Interstate 5 -- California Poinsettias Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-12 Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4cb4071e4b68b0a4322bc9e8ac6d7228.pdf e64e54578e88c9f2be9c650b7c67c406 PDF Text Text LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn't exactly a very pleasant childhood, let's put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother's house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written “Master.” And I didn't know that word--I didn't. So, she told me what it was, that it was a “Master” and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister’s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister’s name because of what's different than mine. And, uh, it was “Miss” and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, “There's something wrong here.” And I think, “I'm supposed to be more like the ‘Miss.’” (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that's why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That's one of my earliest memories. After that it didn't get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn't, I ended up joining the Navy. But that's (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn't exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that's how I felt. So, it wasn't an easy time, believe me. But that's pretty much my basic childhood. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 1 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I'm sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn’t--I didn't even, I don't think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them “transsexuals,” which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that's the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister's clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn't do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn't want “my kind” there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I'm like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, “mentally disturbed,” because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to “fix them,” so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn't, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I'm one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we've come, there's still much further to go. So. Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that's okay and talk about your years in activism. You've been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I Transcribed by Julia Friedman 2 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn't start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn't come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn’t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there's even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn't understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I've heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn't even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say “No,” because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that's what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don't have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, “I want be like that person.” Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, “Oh, that's me when I grow up.” But yet, then I find out that they're either the joke or they're, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I'm like, “Okay, well, that's not me.” So, I'm not like that, but you know, here I am, that's who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn’t alone and there's a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we've been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I've been around forever (laughs). It's just so something that hasn't been known, that's all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There's some tribes that don't even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn't have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl Transcribed by Julia Friedman 3 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Friedman: Wow. That's really interesting. And I'm glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn't say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don't agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they're the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, “Hey, they're like me and you know what, they're okay. That's an engineer, that's a medical doctor and that's a lawyer,” you know? “This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it's not so bad.” So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn't start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can't remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I'm here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender Transcribed by Julia Friedman 4 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, “Oh, that's the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff,” but there's so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let's say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I've worked, I've had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, “Get that thing out of my hospital.” So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she's permanently disabled, because she didn't receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn't make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they're no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn't know how to deal with this. I didn't know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I'd tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop—help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you're talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn't want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I've never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual Transcribed by Julia Friedman 5 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 that's on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that's been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there's a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they’re wondering, you know, “Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?” Um, you know, and, “Can she have her name change? Can she get women's clothing? Can be isolated so she's protected away from the general population?” All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state's laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it-we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year's. So, she was like, “No, no, no, no.” (both laugh) So, of course I've moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, “You know, I'm an--I'm an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?” So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, “What can I do to come?” (laughs) You know? “What can I do when I get out here?” (laughs) “Where can I go?” He's like, “Don't worry, we'll put you to work.” So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, “Hey, it's along the lines,” because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn't too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for MediCal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn't worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 6 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 We had, I don't know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we're remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn't want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I'm sure it's at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there's less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that's an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I'm a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that's something that people don't see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I've got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It's usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it's so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it's more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the “intersectionality of marginalizations.” So, you know, that's why that particular day is so important to me, even though it's a somber day. And I'm glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I'm hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that's what the grant is called, “Fight the Hate.” (laughs) So, you know, it's an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I'm actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I'm also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I'm also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I'm, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I'm privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don't have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we've done, there's still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It’s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you've learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn't be able to get their rights. That's what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 7 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn't get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they're trying to pick up these supposedly “men” that dress as “women,” which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it's because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbians stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn't make sense. And believe it or not, there's still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I'm with another woman, I consider--I'm sexually attracted to other women. I'm romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There's a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I'm not a lesbian because I'm a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they're out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there's still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we've actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I've looked into is--and I hope I'm not premature in saying this. I've been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I'm doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I'm on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there's more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that's my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that's where me, that's my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that's--that's my life--that's my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for Transcribed by Julia Friedman 8 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I'm a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it's happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, “Hey, we've got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you.” Friedman: That’s awful. Pronovost: So, they're going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it's so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it's ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They’re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don't have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people's HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state's forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA's a national law, It's not a state law (laughs). They shouldn't be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the “Don't Say Gay Bill” in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida's bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we're going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say “You're gay.” There's another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that's very similar to Texas's bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, “Oh, it's become a ‘popular thing.’” It's not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 9 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that's why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months’ time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they're--the thing that I'm looking at is I'm hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that's my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that's more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we'll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don't think it's that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there's certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what's right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there's even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You're looking at very, um, I don't like to use this because I don't like to use somebody's name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don't like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let's take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, “Trumping somebody” is overcoming is somebody. So that's what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don't like people like me. You know, I've had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they're having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That's the only thing that they can't change because that's a legal document, Transcribed by Julia Friedman 10 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, “Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max.” And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that's not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren't, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That's the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there's a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it's mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, “granola-ish,” if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It's very similar. The fight's the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they've raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag's never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I'm hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you've already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I've learned so much it's hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I've had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world's largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- “Where where's the donuts and coffee?” (laughs). That was the type of look I got. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 11 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 And, “Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?” When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man's field and being a woman trying to make it in a man's field. And, and so I don't—[connection froze]—People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that's what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that's one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can't go out there. I can mention about it, but I can't go out there and say, “You know, we need more protections for trans women of color.” I can say that, but, you know, I don't experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I'm not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that's the main thing I've learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn't just about any one person, it's about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we've covered so much. (both laugh). I don't know. I don't think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It's a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we've done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I'm just happy to be here. Like I said, that that's my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I'm hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 12 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you've been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You're very welcome. And it's my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it's our pleasure (both laugh). Transcribed by Julia Friedman 13 2022-11-08 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pronovost, Leea. Interview transcript. April 8, 2022. Description An account of the resource Leea Pronovost was a transgender activist and has advocated for transgender and LGBTQIA+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Most recently residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost was a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she worked as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chaired the Gender Advocacy Project, and was a grant writer. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leea Pronovost Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-08 Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ+ issues LGBTQ+ rights Transgender people -- Civil rights Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) Springfield (Mass.) 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-18 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-11-08 Activists and activism Community history History Department internship LGBTQIA+ experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0fdc360b76778aa3cb86f76a275e9ed3.pdf d1536bca656a02dae88e07a6d8a2a462 PDF Text Text JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer and I'm interviewing Jake Northington as part of the Cal State San Marcos University Archive's Oral History Project. The interview took place on Friday, November 22nd, 2019 at the University Library, California State University San Marcos. Jake, thank you very much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about some of your formative years, especially how they relate to your passion for photography. So, I wanted to ask you a few questions about your childhood and early adult life. And I wanted to start off just by asking, where were you born? Jake Northington: That I don't know the answer to. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I grew up as an orphan and I lived in many cities, many states. Uh, I've seen a couple of birth certificates. So, not really sure, but, I grew up in East St. Louis, Illinois. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That's why I grew up. Visintainer: So you grew up in East St. Louis. Was there any ways in which your childhood or your upbringing influenced your photography? Northington: Uh, yes. I would say yes. You know, uh, if you've ever heard of a guy by the name of Gordon Parks. So throughout the fifties and sixties, he photographed the civil rights movement and a lot of activists socially. So, seeing those type of pictures and watching movies produced by Spike Lee and other people through Black films, they would use a lot of still shots to enter into the movie or to exit out of the movie. So, the beginning and the ending to bookcase the movies, they would show a lot of still shots from Gordon Parks. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: You know, so that was probably the first time I saw images like that and the images Gordon Parks takes in particular of Black people living everyday life, you know? So, and that introduced me to other photographers that particularly took pictures of Black people that you would never see that I wouldn't see in magazines or on TV or anything like that. So. Visintainer: And when you say he took pictures of Black people living everyday life, are there any images that you recall that really stand out to you? Northington: Yes. Uh, he has a picture of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King smiling together at a banquet function. And it is like [19]66 or [19]67. And these are two people that have polarizing views of what Black people should do in America socially. So, you have one guy who wants to fully work with the system and you have one guy who wants to fully oppose the system. So, you have two different dynamics at play from the same, uh, atmosphere from the same starting point growing up at the same time yet they have two different ways of going about it. And then you see these people cordial and friendly. So that's an amazing picture for people in the Black community to see that you can have opposing views and still work for the same progression of your people. So. Visintainer: Okay. Thank you. Did he take pictures as well of less famous Black people? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 1 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: Yes. Yes, because that's, again, the start. So, from the research, it seems that he took a lot of pictures of jazz musicians. He even did short films himself, you know? So it was all encompassing. He became more famous for the photography, but he also did films. I believe he wrote a book as well. And, uh, so it's, it's a little, you know, all-encompassing to produce an entire artwork with the varying degrees and various wrinkles. So, it's not just one avenue and that's kind of the way I take my artwork, because photography's just one element of it. I didn't start off taking pictures. I started off drawing pictures. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I draw still and that's still the basis of it all is drawing. So, I would consider taking pictures, just drawing with the camera. Visintainer: Alright. So when did you make the transition from drawing into photography? Northington: Just three years ago, in one class here at this school. I took a--it's a digital photography class taught by Nancy diBenedetto. She's in the Navy and she was an adjunct professor at that moment. I don't know if that may be in her second or third year teaching here. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, in, uh, she thought I took pretty good pictures. So she gave me a few pointers. She kind of showed us a lot of stuff in the class. You know, we did so many field trips to go to different arenas. We went to farms, we went to parks and, you know, on campus and she put us everywhere. And then we went to see an photography exhibit downtown at Balboa Park they had a photography exhibit and the whole class had to go there. So, to see the photos you take and then be able to compare them to professional photography. It gives you, you know, something to look for or it allows you to see things you could correct yourself, you know? So, and that's how I kind of see photography, you making your own corrections, you know? And then if you're satisfied, then it's a good photo for you. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Because they can all be looked at so differently. So, that's how hard is. Visintainer: Was it intimidating when you first started out comparing yourself to people in exhibitions? Northington: Not at all, not at all because I'm a person that always went to art museums. I went to plenty of exhibitions prior to this class, you know? Art is my whole world. So, I see everything as art: cars, clothes, shoes, a pencil, you know? I used to play with my mechanical pencils and take them apart, put them back together to see how it was put together, why they chose these colors, why they have the writing on it, you know? And for me, all of that is art because somebody with an artistic mind had to design your mechanical pencil, your eraser, your--your steering wheel on your car. So, it all plays a part. So, I wouldn't consider my stuff in a comparison measure to be less than it's just, this is the way I see it. That's the way they see it. There's two different eyes behind the camera. So, I wouldn't do that, but I'd look at their work and see like, “Okay, there's more clarity here, there's more depth.” There's more layers to their photography versus me taking a picture of a person. And there's just a wall in the background. There's no layers. So, I would be able to get some type of a scope of these are other things that are possible with the photos and then talking about the mood of the person. Can I really see the mood? I got more of that from watching modeling shows, you know? Of how your eyes can give away a smile or your eyes can give away a frown without the facial expression. So, then I have to input that into Transcribed by Julia Friedman 2 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 the photo. And now I'm trying to communicate that with the person in the photo to get the look I'm looking for. So, you know, it's a little bit of elements all over the place to put it all together. Visintainer: Okay. And do you started off with drawing, so I'm assuming that your experience and your learning as you started off with drawing, transferred into photography pretty well as well, but I was curious, were there any specific lessons or techniques that you took from your background in drawing and art that transferred directly into photography? Northington: Yes. The biggest thing I would say is filling up the space. So, before I started taking pictures, I would see a lot of people take pictures on social media and all these other things. I'm not a picture person myself. So, I don't just sit down and take pictures of myself or other people. I didn't-- I never did that, but I would do it mentally. So, you know, and you would see a picture or a background mentally before I even had the camera. So, I'm already doing it in my head. And then, uh, you know, people would, most people do it. They go, “Oh, that's a nice sunset.” Or, “Look at those mountains.” You're taking a visual picture in your head, you know, and this is why they can sell their painting at Marshalls. You go to Marshalls and you pick up the painting of the canvas of the Carlsbad beach area or the pier in Oceanside. You can sell that because it's a nice visual and you just capture that. And then, uh, I think everybody does that to a different degree. So again, picking up the camera, I've already had that exercise in my mind. So, from drawing, I got filling up the picture because I started drawing cartoons. So now I come in class and I'm taking art class. The professor would say, “You have to fill up the background, it's empty,” you know? You make it too one-dimensional or two-dimensional with no layers. You want to make it pop. You want to make it stand out. You want--so you need to add three, four, five, ten dimensions, whatever. Keep adding layers. So, filling up the whole sheet of paper and making an entire scene is what I took over to the photography side from, from drawing. Visintainer: Okay. And that's interesting. And when you mentioned cartoons, especially, so when I think of cartoons, I think of panels. Northington: Yes. Vistintainer: And I think of you know, word balloons and things that do fill up a panel there. Um, but oftentimes there's real kind of blank or not defined backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Do you try to do something similar with your portraiture, especially? Or do you utilize the backgrounds, uh, in a way that would be maybe different from how--? Northington: I would say it's both and it all depends on the intent of that photo. So, if the intent of that photo includes the background, then I'll make the black background a little more apparent and then if it doesn't, then you kind of shoot an aperture mode to, you know, to fizzle out the background, you know? And that's like a new app on everybody's phone, everybody's shooting in portrait mode on their, on their iPhone and it'll fuzz out the background, you know? So that's, if that's necessary for what I'm trying to get across then yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 3 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: If not, I'll really include the background, you know? Specifically with the photos you've seen with the sunlight actually being included in the background though, it's ninety-three million miles away so they say. Visintainer: Alright. Um, I think we've already covered a little bit about your instruction with tutoring, or tutoring that you had as well as your background in art. So, I kind of wanted to move on and ask you kind of in a reverse question, have you taken on any students or mentees yourself? Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Or in, so what advice did you give them? Northington: The same advice I get. And you know, one of the bigger things that probably the number one piece of advice I got from Nancy diBenedetto is just keep taking pictures. You have to make all the mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over. And then next year and I take ten thousand more pictures. I'm comparing my pictures now to my pictures, you know? And that's an easier fix and it allows you to grow within yourself versus I'm going to compare my pictures to somebody that's already in the magazine shooting for Getty Photos. You don't want to, you know, that's a big jump and you may never get there. And then understanding how much equipment plays a role. You could shoot with a, you know, a Polaroid camera from some convenience store that you got from CVS versus shooting with a $10,000 camera, you know, from Best Buy. That same person is going to produce a different quality of photo just from the equipment alone. So, learning that, you know, uh, learning, setting the background, and implanting the person versus trying to take the person and implant the background, you know? That was a big thing I learned too. So, that's something I teach some people. I have about four or five right now, just picked up a new guy, Shamar. So, I got about four or five students here at school that I kind of help out and assist with all the things that I've been told. And then I try to help them just develop their own way, you know? Don't take pictures like me, take pictures like you, you know? Don't become a copycat. You see what you saw in it. And I'll just try to help with, you know, technical things, things that may stand out to make this possibly not as good of a picture. But I can't help you with what you saw, what you see, what you want to produce. I don't want to touch that because that's for you. Visintainer: Okay. There were a couple things I wanted to come back to. Um, one of them is you mentioned you got to make the same mistakes over and over and over. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some mistakes in photography that you made over and over and over before realizing--? Northington: Lighting. Visintainer: Lighting? Northington: Lighting. Uh, there's so many small things. There may be twenty-five or thirty things you have to do before you take a picture. And if you forget one of them, you'll be mad once you go to editing, you know? You walk outside, the sunlight is in one space in the sky. If you forget that and throw it out of your mind, then you're going to have a bunch of dark shadows on everybody's face. So, unless that was what you was exactly trying to do, then you kind of threw a lot of your pictures off. You want Transcribed by Julia Friedman 4 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 the light on them, you know. Learning the red, the orange and the blue and the white lights, you know, using the application on your actual camera, the white balance, you know, that's something that I didn't even pay attention to. Even though Nancy taught us in class, I spent a lot of months not using my white balance and you'll get a yellowish undertone to people's skin and the colors scheme will be off. And now in editing, you have to go through and try to mute all that yellowish and greenish because you didn't do a proper white balance, you know? So stuff like that, I had to waste a bunch of photos and SD cards because I didn't, you know, take that into account. So where are my light source come from? Having enough light for the individual. Focus--my focus points, you know, the different variations you could, adjust your camera to, you know? Shooting in portrait or shooting in, you know, a fast pace or a slow pace. Understanding that, uh, your camera only captures so much depending on the lens. So, if I have a $700 lens, I could do a little bit more than that standard lens you come with, but I have a $2,000 lens I can do even a little bit more. It allows for even more mistakes because that vibration control works a lot better in the $2,000 lens than it does in that standard lens you get. So, understanding all of those things before I even take the photo. Using a tripod to take photos versus handheld, because nobody can sit still, you have a heartbeat, your body can’t sit still. You have to hold your breath and pause everything. You know, that’s just like, you know? Anybody that does weaponry, you learn the same thing. When you have to shoot a rifle on a range, you have to hold your breath, squeeze in between your breath, because that’s the only still you’re going to get. It’s the same thing. I think that’s what you call it, “shooting with the camera,” cause yeah, it’s some of the same techniques. So, anybody that shoots rifles, it’s kind of the similar techniques. For putting it’s a similar technique. So, shooting free throws, similar technique, you know, those positions, you have to pause that breath. So, all of those things at once before you even take the picture, if you rush through it, you just wasted some time. I had to do it. And then I look back at my photos from the beginning. Because I even have a book that's not out for anybody to see because it's a book of mistakes, you know? And I keep it and I have it in my room and I look at it from time to time. I can't--this is where it started, you know? A lot of blown out pictures because it's too much light, a lot of yellow skin because no white balance, a lot of blurry pictures because my arm is moving too much. And I have to keep it to look at my mistakes to remind myself, to keep all of these things in mind before I shoot the picture. So, you know, that’s, it’s a part of it and it’s--it's needed. Visintainer: Yeah. Do you keep all of your photos that you take? Northington: Yes. So, I have quite a few hard drives so, and the only thing I don't like is they usually last, you know, four or five years and you got to switch them up again. Don't like that, but you know, because you have to keep paying for that over and over and over, but yeah, you should. I would tell people to keep them all because if you get rid of your mistakes, you can't see them. It's hard to improve like that. So, unless you’re always going to have a teacher right ahead of you constantly doing, you know. So it’s hard to self-improve without a constant teacher or a constant reminder of the things you need to work on. So, and I would employ people to do that on their own by always having a teacher because you’re being guided a little too much. Take your own steps. So. Visintainer: I think that's good advice. There was another thing I wanted to come back to and that was, you mentioned importing your subjects into your backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 5 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Visintainer: And forgive me if I'm not phrasing exactly how you did. And I thought that was really interesting because you do portraiture, you go out, you look for people that I assume that are, that you want to have that are subjects. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: So, I wanted to ask you a little bit about the process of how you choose your subjects. Northington: (laughs) Yeah. Visintainer: And then I guess the follow up, you know, beyond the process of how you choose your subjects, then how do you insert them into the backgrounds? Do you choose your backgrounds and look for a subject or, what do you do? Northington: I don’t even decide, it decides itself. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, just being a student, you have to walk around campus, you take enough classes, you’ll go into every building on campus. So, been here almost four years now. So, I’ve been in every building. As I’m always walking, I’m seeing these scenes, making mental notes. I want a picture right there. I want a picture right there. Mental note--it just built this bridge across the street. I need a picture right there from the bridge. So, you know, and there's a lot of tall buildings here. So, it gives for a lot of angles. A lot of birds-eye-views and worms-eye-views. So, it is a lot, it's enough layers here, even in a compact campus. So, all of those backgrounds are constantly piling up. So now I have all these backgrounds. Now it's about the people. Who do I want to use for the next photo? It's all that random, you know, but I don't want anybody too excited. I prefer a person who is on the edge of saying “No,” but they'll do it anyway. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That's what I want. I don't want somebody that, “Oh, I take a thousand pictures for social media every day.” No, they usually are too excited, too much to calm down. That's just been what I've seen just from taking pictures for three years. People that are over excited to take photos, it's usually for me. Other people may be different, but for me it's more difficult to get them to the look, the feel and the expression that I need for the photo. And that photo shoot would last two hours. When I could have got the picture in seven minutes with a person that's more calm and mundane and melancholy. We can get the photo in seven minutes and then now I can spend thirty minutes getting a bunch of photos to use for later. So that's more conducive for me. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, and I particularly want people who have never seen. So, the invisible people is what I want. Melancholy, invisible. That's the people I want: the unseen. You know, people walk around every day and pretend like homeless people are not standing on the street with a sign asking for water or food. Yet, they're walking a dog, picking up behind a dog, feeding the dog and walk right past a homeless human being, you know? So, we see this every day in society. So, the unseen get no support, no help, you know? They don't get to smile. They don't get to feel good about themselves, you know? We can change that. So that's a part of the social activism of my work. I want the people who are less Transcribed by Julia Friedman 6 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 recognized, the people who may then have such a good time in middle school or high school, got picked on. Maybe wasn't as tall as everybody else. Not as muscular, not as attractive, not as whatever, you know, "-ism” you want to use. Those people should be recognized, because everybody should be included. So, there’s no popularity contest with my photos. I’ve turned down more people than most. Because people that ask me to take their photos, it's probably ninety-seven percent time, it's a “No.” I say “no” every week. So (laughs). Visintainer: When do you say “yes” when somebody asks you to? Northington: If it's like a social, like, situation as I'm graduating? Okay. That's a necessary-- to capture this moment. You know, [if] I'm having a birthday party, you know, something like that. People celebrate different, you know, different holidays and stuff like that. So, those are understood situations. But when it's like, “Oh, can you take pictures of me? Can you take?”-- because it's a lot of that. You know, people are doing that with phones every day. But when they find out somebody has a camera and oh, you take pictures a little, you know, on a little higher level than a camera phone. “Oh, can you get these pictures of me for this or for this?” you know, I get some of the same people over and over and over. Even after I’ve taken pictures for them, they’ll keep coming back for more and more and more. No, no, no. That’s enough. You have a phone on your camera. That’s enough. You know, because I believe you’ve already accomplished what we needed to with the photos. You feel good about yourself, you know? And you’re walking around elevated. Good. We made it happen. That's so that's enough for me. So, I don't need to entertain that anymore. So, we trying to pick up the people who feel a little, you know, more lowly about themselves. Pick those people up. Visintainer: So, one of the things that I think separates beyond skill level, obviously that separates art and photography from say more commercial enterprises, like, you know, capturing a wedding or something like that is a philosophy or a thought process-Northington: (both talking at once) Yes. Visintainer: (both talking at once) --behind the production of the art. And you've talked a little bit about, um, about how you want to make sure that the people that are unseen are seen. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: But I was curious if there's other philosophies that you take into the production of your art as well? Northington: Yes. My photography is particularly for Black people. So, it does two things. It’s force feeds Black images, Black positive images into everybody’s purview. I’m going to force feed it. There’s something—this comes back to just being a kid and I will walk in Walmart with everybody else that goes to Walmart since they’re billions and billions of dollars every year. You walk in Walmart and, and maybe you just need a picture frame because you and your family just had a family reunion or your grandmother’s birthday was celebrated, and you go pick up this picture frame and the family in the picture frame stock photo never looks like me. Ever. So, that's the standard. And then, you know, you play soccer, or me? I played tennis growing up and we win a little trophy and the figurine on top of the trophy is never me. It's never my people. And then let's say you fall in love with somebody, you get married and you go to the place to order your wedding cake. And you have to specially order the Black Transcribed by Julia Friedman 7 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 figurines and you wait a few weeks for it to come in the mail because everything in the store that's standard is not me. It's not my people. So, you can go across all media, all aspects of society. And the standard is one group. Everybody else becomes, you know? Well, they get to choose if they include you or not. So, what's happened for many commercials, many movies? We have this idea of the token, we'll insert one, you know, non-white person that could be anybody, you know? They may insert one Asian, one Latino, or one Black person, Disney movies do it all the time. Disney TV shows do it all the time. If you've ever seen South Park, they have a character called Token and he has a big “T” on his t-shirt and it's a Black kid that lives in South Park, Colorado amongst all of the other white kids. You know? This is a real thing in life and in a place particularly like San Marcos, this is not a Black city. It's not a Black area, you know? So, we have a lot of Black students here who were the one in their entire group of friends and, you know, sports, anything, they were involved in. So they're not the standard. So going back to Walmart, let me go get, you know, some stuff, some products for my hair. And there's an aisle called an “ethnic hair aisle” in Walmart. One aisle, two or three shells with hair products that's supposed to be for me. And then there's one, two, three, four, five whole aisles for the “standard” people. So, you know, the photography or the standard of people can be influenced by these things. So, you can learn to understand that you're not included by growing up like that. And those are just a few aspects, you know? Cartoons, whatever--toys, everything. A lot of little Black girls were getting little baby doll toys or Barbies or whatever. And it doesn't look like them. So, these things can help pull away at yourself, how you feel about yourself, how you view your skin, your hair, you know, your people in America. It could pull away and produce these negative aspects. And then you see yourself in film and you're always a drug dealer, a crack head, a prostitute, on welfare. Forever. So much so that a movie like the Marvel Black Panther movie makes a billion dollars and it automatically changes so many people's view. And it automatically brings up the feeling of a group of Black people. Or, 2008, when Barack Obama comes into office, you see the spiritual uplift of a bunch of Black people because of representation. And then he has so many books out between him and his wife. They produce different books. There's so much photography of them. There's so many art pieces that were made because they came into the office, you know? There's a there's a professional painter that did a huge piece on Michelle Obama. That's famous all throughout social media, just for the representation. So, propaganda can be positive or negative. So, I'll take my photography to create some more, just add to the positive end. So, I feel like anybody can do that. If you have a camera phone in your hand, everybody can do that. So, I just choose to be on the more positive end because all of my life has only been negative for my people through film, photography, or otherwise, you know? Just pull up any school website and look at the photos they use for the school website. I almost never see my people in any realm, any aspect. Just Google any business, you know? There became a trend that you would only see Black people in McDonald's commercials and Cadillac commercials. And that's been the trend for like thirty years. And then, you know, Black History Month comes up and then you'll see somebody get inputted somewhere else, you know? Or like, the NBA is like eighty, eighty-five percent Black, but then during Black History Month, they have NBA Black history t-shirts that everybody in the NBA has to wear. So, you'll get that one time and then everything else is standard, you know, stuff like that. So, that's the way I look at it. I see it that way. I go, “Okay, how can we improve this?” I can put out more positive Black images. So, I will. So, I go look for people who may be down on themself, who may be just, “I'm just going to hide in the shadows,” or, “I'm unseen,” you know? That's the people I would prefer if I--if they're willing to be a part of it. And then just, you know, gradually go up and up and up. And then when we get too far to somebody’s just over-“Okay, it's enough.” So, I'm just trying to get that aspect. That's not really, picked out and use and you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 8 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 know, uh, it could be commercial art. It could be just, you know? Fine art, any way you want to take it, but these things are going to last forever. So that's kind of the thought process behind the book. The photo books. They last forever. You can look back at this when you have kids and the grandkids and this event happened, you know? It happened. You have these yearbooks in high school. People always look back at the yearbooks, you know? A lot of grandmothers used to have this big photo album on a coffee table and you come to your grandmother's house and look at all these photos, you know? So, since those were a part of my life, this was a part of the process. Like, okay, I could put all that together and let's just tell a story with this book. And then, I use the book and find a social issue that affects Black people. So, and let's try to correct that social issue through photography, using the Black students here and then give them these photos. And I gave many of them the books that are in the books. Now they get to say they've been a part of this. They get to know. Their family gets to know. So, these pictures get to now reverberate through the Black community. Much like if you saw, you know, Michelle and Barack Obama walk across the stage 2008. So, it gives some type of spiritual upliftment. You feel proud of yourself and who you are, versus comparing yourself to the stock photo in the picture frame at Walmart. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you talked a little bit about representation right now, and then we've talked in the past about representation. And this is not necessarily a photography-related question, but I was curious, as a person of color, when you're out in the world and you don't see representation all around you, what are the kind of the kind of self-care approaches that you take to remain positive in an environment where there's an absence? Northington: Well, just the phrase you just use that I don’t use myself. “Person of color” is not in identifiable nomenclature for me or how I use for my people. You have notion such as “African American.” That’s not--that’s not for me to use. That’s for other people. That’s only been around nineteen years. U.S. census in a year 2000 added “African American” as an identifying, you know, political term to be used. That didn’t exist before then. So, I did a project in the library about that, you know, that we did here. And I showed how the nomenclature of Black people have changed since 1790 census to today. So, there’s been, you know, quite a few terms and phrases. So, the phrase that is currently used now is “people of color.” I don’t use that because you kind of amalgamate everybody into a group and that can be good in certain aspects. But for me, that adds more negative-Visintainer: Okay. Northington: --For Black people, because we get away from talking about Black issues, and Black people by calling all issues of non-whites people of color issues. So, and a lot of these things need to be particular because people of color don't get kicked out of high school for their hair. People of color are not being murdered at this such high rate by the police on TV. So that's why I can't use a term like that or a phrase like that. But I do understand why people use it and then it gets, you know, it gets, you used a lot, but I--I can't use those terms because what affects Black people particularly is not a people of color issue, you know? People of color in hair that's, you know, it's such a different thing. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: --You know, just try to keep it a little more positive. And, uh, so, going back to your question. I would say, the women's book in particular, the main issue was like, I just brought up, the hair. So, there's black kids getting kicked out of school by the thousands every single year, just for having Transcribed by Julia Friedman 9 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 their natural hair, because my hair grows as my hair is supposed to. Your hair grows as it's supposed to. How can this now be a factor in who can be in school and who can't? And who's unkept and who's not, you know? So, we have Supreme Court rulings on this. Many states have their own state's law and federal law doesn't include, you know, the Constitution has nothing about hair in it, you know? Because that was the standard of one group of people. So, hair wasn't an issue. So, we have a lot of state Supreme Court ruling and that led me to the focus of the first book I did on natural hair. So, in 2016, they had an Eleven Circuit Court Supreme Court ruling said employers could in fact discriminate against natural hairstyles. If they see it to be unfit, unkept, unprofessional. So, to even be allowed to do that legally, that’s not a people of color issue, you know, that’s Black-specific. So, I had to dive into that with the book. So, I went around campus and uh, just would just keep my eyes open for any Black people who just walked around freely with natural hairstyles, their natural hair all the way out, you know? Who may not believe in that “I'm going to be clean cut because society told me to,” you know, my hair has to be cut off. Yet, I sit in class and see all these other races of people who get to enjoy their hair being as long as they choose to. And they're not assumed to be violent or third or unkept, you know? So, you could walk around with a ponytail and it wouldn't be seen as anything other than hip. But I let my hair grow, and now society makes a direct connection from me and my natural hair to 1966 Black Panther Party. Just my natural hair alone, I get directly, “Oh, you like a Black Panther?” Why would they do that? You know why? Because the photography that existed in 1966, taking pictures of Black people in Black social movements, they all look like this with their natural hair, the men and the women have the same natural hair. So now, America, hasn't seen that since the sixties, thousands upon thousands. So, you had about twenty-five to twenty-eight million Black people at that point. And for a lot of them to just be walking around naturally, completely, like this, that's a different thing. Because it's like, this group is very different than this group. And it's almost like a highlighter, a notify, you know? And at this point, as you go to the “people of color” term, the term that was used at this point was “Afro-American.” It’s in literature. It’s all over the place at this time. It’s in movies, everywhere. Interviews everything. Because it notified the hair. Afro-American. Well, that since passed and a lot of people went into different hairstyles and different things have changed. So much so that when now I exist, the only correlation is 1966 through the sixties and early seventies is Black Panther Party. So, I get that every day. Can I help change that? Yes. With the book, with the pictures. Particularly discussing hair and how my hair has to always be political. My hair has to always have a law. My hair has to always fit into the scheme of the society as they make the rules. So, we had to fully discuss this hair regulation policy, because it doesn't just exist with that one employer for that one Supreme Court rule in an Eleven Circuit Court. This happens at every, it happens here. It happens when I go to job interviews, you know, I've been asked to cut my hair before and I just didn't work at that place, you know? It's a little different for me. What if I wanted to get a job that requires hats like an officer or, you know, a firefighter, baseball player. The hats are not made for me and my hair. That hats are made for the “standard” American. You know, if your hair lays down in a particular pattern, then a hat doesn't change anything as far as your hair. Well, if I were a size seven hat with my hair low, that changes with my hair longer. It may not change as much as you because your hair would press down and it wouldn't be, you know, wouldn't be messed up. Anything like that. Well, it's different for me or if I'm the only sector of society, that's going to have such a significant difference in that manner. The rules didn't change for me and for Black people. So, just trying to help point out some of these things, you know, with the books and with the photography. So, that’s why I said it can work in both ways. You’re uplifting Black people and then you’re throwing it in the face of everybody else. “Hey, this is who we are. This is what we look like. I'm born this way,” you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 10 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 know? So, this is supposed to be the era of “inclusion.” That's one of the newest words being used in the last two or three summers. “Inclusivity.” “Equity.” And all of these things. Those sound good. And you know, people may have the best intent. But how inclusive are you? If you're asking me to cut my hair, how inclusive are you? If you accept Black people, when their hair is straight, you know, processed. You accept that version. But that same Black woman, if she comes with a hair natural, it's a problem. So much is a problem that many Black women get unrecognized when they come to work one week with their hair pressed and they come to work two or three months later with their hair like mine. “Oh, I thought we had a new coworker. I didn't recognize you.” You know, this happens every day. If I cut my hair right now, I guarantee you, I come to school next semester. Some people will—"Oh, I didn't realize that was you.” Because my face changed (laughs) due to my hair. You know, so, uh, being that our hair has seen is so negative and the negativity comes from the connection to the Black Power Movement throughout the sixties and seventies. So, one of the things, one of the greatest things is our bodies need to be seen as human and as positive. So, the photography about the hair includes that as well, you know? See us happy, we're on campus, we're students, you know, we're coworkers. You need to get used to seeing us in our natural form, how we are. So, the people who may hate or have a disdain for those images, that's a part of them seeing this as well. So, this is what it would do to people who are not Black and then uplift the people who are Black. So, we can kind of, you know, create some social change. So, you could be a little more uncomfortable with seeing a person that looks like me, because you’ve seen it. So, if I'm in a commercial, if I'm in that standard photo at Walmart, if I'm on the school website, you know. If my sister's here, my mother's on this. And we see Black people in films that are also teachers, that also work in the library, that also police officers. So, it becomes accepted. And now I don't have such a, you know, a shocking response. When I see a person like me. There's so many people are shocked by me walking around school. I'm in elevators, going up steps with people. And I keep getting that. The startled response from so many students just because of my hair, that's it. So, we can help change some of these things. Visintainer: Um, to come back a little bit to people that are unseen. So, if you're looking for people that are on the verge of not being interested in being photographed and you're looking for people that are generally unseen. How do you go about convincing people to be seen? Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: If they're used to not being seen (Northington laughs), and maybe comfortable not being seen. Or maybe they're uncomfortable with it, but that's kind of what they expect? Northington: So, I mean, that becomes the work. So, it can't be easy. You know, if you want to do something easy, then I'll just take pictures of people who want to, you know? And then for me, that's not the right energy to go about it or to make the change. They want to be seen. Okay. Yeah. You know, then they're already showing themselves. So, it's not, to me, that's not a fix. So, now when dealing with a person that may be more reluctant to do that. It's not that I want to convince them. It's that I sit down and have the conversation. Let's think about ten years from now. If you make this decision, how will this affect you for ten years and ten years looking back, you know? Would you have been proud of this? You know, then I tell them my purpose for doing it, you know? Similar to some of these responses. Look at commercials, look at magazines. What do you involve yourself in on a daily basis? If you’re watching your social media, what do the ads look like? What are your favorite films? What’s your favorite music? So, look at the—already imagery of yourself. If you had the opportunity to make it positive, because, you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 11 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 know, there’s so much talk about these people do this to us. This group oppresses us this way. Those are true. So, what if I’m giving one small opportunity to go against that. To improve it? If my son, my daughter, my granddaughter, my great-granddaughter was able to see this great imagery of, you know, their great-grandfather or something. It uplifts them as a child. So, I can start that off from the beginning. And you are already fighting against some of the negativities against you from the beginning. So, what happens today? A lot of Black people are looking back to pictures of the Harlem Renaissance. Looking back at those, you know, Gordon Parks photos. This the, uh, what is this? Another woman, uh, [Carrie] Mae Weems, she--her photos as well. So, you have something to look back to something, to aspire to. All these images of Barack Obama, Michelle Obama. All these images of Jay-Z and Beyonce, all these, you know, you have these images to look forward to, to uplift you. You may even make some type of connection, and you can see a little bit of yourself in it, because it represents you a lot more than looking at the, uh, the Statue of Liberty or the Mount Rushmore, you know? Those are like things that are unattached to your culture or to your soul in a way, if you would see own people, you know, we have the Caesar Chavez statue on campus. Everybody probably generally understands that that's okay, it's a mark on the campus. What Caesar Chavez stands for, you know, the rights of migrant workers and all of those things. But then I would say there's another aspect of people who look at that in a different way than even I do. But in other peoples they see more self-representation, more our people work for something. And then there's a different connection. So, we can do that with statues. With imagery. So, I explain this to some of these people and then they make a decision off of that. Then some of them go, “Okay, you know what? I do want to do this.” And then they may have already told themselves they want to be seen, but they don't get the opportunity. They want to be included, but they don't get the opportunity, and they don't have the persona or the, you know, or the personality to kind of say, “Hey, you know, I like to take pictures and do this.” So, I get to now become the conduit for that. And then some of the people go, “No, that's not my arena.” And then I have to take that. But I'd rather deal with it in that way than the person screaming. “Take pictures of me, take pictures of me.” So that's kind of how it goes. Visintainer: Thank you. Have you seen your kind of personal philosophy in relation to your art evolve over time? Northington: Yes. Yes. Uh, but the first idea of doing it from the hair perspective opened up so many other lanes, because then it goes, this is happening against Black people in society. So, let me walk down that and see how I can place that in images to where people can see the image and I don't have to put words on the paper, you know? Tell the story without putting the words on the paper. And then it opens up another lane, another lane. So, I would say the involvement, the evolving of it comes from the first stance of looking at the hair situation. The involvement came from that, and then it's just, this is happening, this is happening. Also, I'm in sociology classes, you know, I'm in a Black feminist thought class. Talk about Dr. Walkington. And I'm in a Black communities class. Talk about Dr. Muhammad. So, we're talking about the aspects of Black immigration, the aspects of over sexual sexualizing Black women, you know? Things like this, more avenues. Now I can use that in the photography and help try to curve some of those negativities. So, it just continues to just go out and go out and go out. And more ideas are just constantly popping up. So, that would add to the evolving measure. And then these are open doors for me to take photography of so many other people, you know? So once the photos get posted online or other people post the photo, I took it in and tagged. Then now I'll get a message saying, “Hey, can you take pictures of me at my birthdays coming up? I have my 22nd birthday. Me and my Transcribed by Julia Friedman 12 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 friends, can you come take--” then that'll happen. And then from that, I had two different companies go, “Oh, hey, we have an event, uh, company that we constantly do events, ten or twenty a year. Are you available to take events for our-- take photos for our events?” So, I have one company I've been taking event photos for three years and another one for a year. And then, so it just keeps going and going and going. And then that adds for a lot of practice. Because I'm getting different lighting situations, indoor, outdoor, overhangs, you know, candlelit lights, you know? So everything's a little different. So, it allows for a lot of practice to do the actual photography that I'm passionate in. So, that's kind of some of the involvement. Visintainer: Okay. So, you've got a commercial aspect to what you're doing then. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And you talk a little bit about how you utilize that to grow your personal art. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some of the things that don't translate when you're doing commercial photography to your artistic side? Northington: Um, we're not really attacking any particular social issue when we're doing commercial art, so it's more, “Let’s enjoy life.” The commercial art becomes more about enjoying life. Like, okay, it's the time to fight against, you know, injustices, it's the time to sit down and do your work and it's the time to enjoy life. So, and the commercial art tends to just, you know, live in that arena. Let's enjoy life, let's have fun. But that also still becomes a correction because it used to be illegal for Black people to get together and hang out, you know? You have the slave codes of Virginia, 1684, they have slave codes and you can’t congregate, you know? South Carolina has some of the same slave codes and many of these things were supposed to be overturned and go out the window after the Civil War. Well, you know, those people still had jobs. So, whether the law changed or not, they still had jobs. So, they still kind of continue some of these practices. And this is where we see like a stop-and-frisk comes into play to where New York City police are growing up, stopping-and frisking can five or six Black dudes standing together. So, we can't even be together, you know? There used to be a time where you could buy a house and have a party. Well, since I've been in California, those things seem to be illegal. You can't even have a party at your apartment. Can't have a party at your house. You can't even congregate and have fun. So now people are forced to go rent out, you know, spaces and hotels and ballrooms. You got to rent out of space, pay a few thousand dollars to get people, to show up and party and have fun and then still pay for parking and all these things. It wasn't like this in the nineties. In the nineties, you lived in a place that you pay rent. You can have a party. Well, those things are like illegal now. People just call the cops. You go, no partying allowed. You know, this is even on some paperwork when you go get an apartment: no parties. Some paperwork, for Homeowners Association of that house: no parties. So, I’m an adult, I’m a human, I can't party. Because I choose to. I have to go to a club. I have to rent out a ballroom, you know? So, for Black people in particular, we need to be able to enjoy life as well with all of these stressors, you need to be able to enjoy life. So, even though this is commercial art, for some of these companies, these people are having fun and are having fun together, which is something that's not promoted. They'll show us fighting together, but not so much of us having fun together. So, there's no balance of that. So, in that aspect of thinking, I get to help provide some balance to showing Black people, enjoying each other, having fun. And then go back home to their kids, their wives, their Transcribed by Julia Friedman 13 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 husbands, and their jobs and school and all of that. But they come together and congregate to have fun and we never get to see it. So. Visintainer: When it comes to your subjects for your photography, um, are there anything that you look for in particular? You've mentioned that you look for people that are--I guess maybe, you've already answered this. That you look for people that are unseen. You look for people that are reticent, to be photographed. But are there anything else that you look for in your subjects? Northington: Yes. I also look for Black community organizations or Black on-campus organizations. So, I've taken pictures for the Black faculty and staff, you know, because they have to have it. You should have photos out there. The Black Student Union, the Black Student Center, you know? There's a Black fraternity here, Omega Psi Phi. Black sorority here, Sigma Gamma Rho. And I've taken pictures for all of them because they should have the photos out there, you know? If we're not seen on campus and people pretend like we're not here. So, we're supposedly like 2.1, 2.2 percent of this campus. And you know, and that seems to be the trend all throughout the CSU, you know? There's maybe two: Dominguez Hills and Cal State Long Beach in L.A. They're in a particular area where there's a high concentration of Black people right there in L.A. So, they have a little higher of a number. The rest of the CSU is right around two percent, three percent. So, with that, we're not so much in a propaganda photography in videos at those campuses. Knowing that coming in, I want to particularly take pictures of these Black groups. So, I'll offer my services to all of these Black groups and take pictures of any events that they're doing, any tabling that they're doing and stuff like. So, I have done that here and that's a part of the focus, too. So, to make sure they're supported in that way and, you know, and they can continue on because other than that--because you do an event here and the process is you go to office communication or go to a newspaper you can request photographers to come. And then sometimes they come and they stay for two minutes, take one or two pictures and they leave. And then for me that's not enough, you know? They did their job, they did what they were supposed to do. They got the one or two pictures they're supposed to get and they left. So, they did what they're supposed to do. But for me, that's not enough. For us, it's not enough. Because we're not being represented properly. So, we need to change that. So, when they do their events and sometimes, you know, these different Black organizations ask me to come do the photography, I'll go do it. No charge, just do the event, edit the photos, put them out there. Even make some little slideshows of them and stuff like this. So, and that's led to me doing the old people's luncheon, some Halloween parties, and stuff like that on campus for even other organizations that are not Black particular. But this stuff now lasts forever. , it's amazing. This is 2019, but if somebody's not here, particularly taking pictures of Black people, none of this happened. Everybody's living off memories, you know? That's stuff that was done for people that graduated in [19]79 or [19]82 as a Black group of people. They're talking about the memories of what we went through in four or five years of college. How is that still a thing? Because if nobody's pointing them out and going, “We need to capture this on video on film,” that this happened, they did this, they did this, they did this, you know? The biggest thing here was when we got the Black students in the spring of 2017, and then you have three students who really made the biggest push. So, the ASI [Associated Students Incorporated (student government)] President at that time was Tiffany Boyd. Then you have Jamaéla Johnson and then you have Akilah Green. All three of them were ASI and they made a huge push for us to get the Black Student Center as we needed. And this was a time that all of these Black people were being shot on TV. And, so, this was a very important need for Black students on campus. So, with those three people, we had to make sure they got recognized. So, I took pictures of them. They Transcribed by Julia Friedman 14 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 came for the grand opening. I hope one day that their names and pictures are on the wall in the Center to get their proper due. If that didn't happen, and there's no pictures, it all goes away and there's a history forgotten. So, the photos become documentary automatically. Any photos of Black people almost automatically become a documentary and historical reference points. So that’s another point of keeping all of my photos. When you ask if I keep them. I just get to look back, you know? Even now I’ll look back three years ago when this person was a freshman or whatever. And, you know, it’s like, “Hey, remember this picture, remember this BSU [Black Student Union] meeting, or remember this event,” you know? So. Visintainer: When you're taking your photographs, what guidance do you give your subjects? Northington: To be calm, to try to, like, take away the stress that they have, you know? Because it's almost exercise when you asked about some exercising, some positive things to kind of--because this, this also helps me, you know? This has becomes a tool of, uh, I mean, some people will call it a yoga, mental yoga, or a relaxation technique. Because just being able to take a picture of Black people and it makes them feel good. It makes me feel good. So, you know, you get to keep pushing that positive energy back into Black people. Because they need it just as much as anybody. So, if nobody's going to be particular to help pull up Black people, I'm not going to sit around and fuss about it. What aspect can I add to it? So, I'll continue to do that. So, it can help them as well, you know? Especially those people who are more quiet and shy and then they go, “Oh, this person wanted to put me in their book or wanted to put me in their video,” and that can help change them and, and it help them grow and help them feel good about themselves so I could help them. They could help me. So that's the way I take it. Visintainer: Can you tell me about a particularly satisfying moment in your photography? (Northington laughs) Something that really, really made you, you know--I think you get a lot of joy out of it in general. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: But something that really made you go “Well, I'm so happy to be doing what I'm doing?” Northington: Uh, well, a lot of these photos in the books, especially the Black women's book, I printed out maybe seventy, eighty of these photos on a large canvas of like twenty-four by thirty-six. And I did a thing last year where I printed all these out on steel frames and some of them were on canvas and I gave these out to people or gave them to their mothers and to their grandmothers. And that was probably the most satisfying thing because you don't normally see people from a socioeconomic deprivation to be, to make a jump, to have something that may be considered expensive artwork of their own in their house. So, imagine walking in your house and having your own huge portrait on metal, on steel, on the wall, and every time your family comes over, “Look, this is my daughter in college. Look, this is my son in college.” And they had the picture taken by somebody on campus. When you would normally have to have enough income enough, you know, throw away money, to go pay for this. And it cost you three or 400 bucks. So, because it cost about 200 bucks for the photo. And then now for the photo photographer services, you might spend 500 dollars for something like that. Just for that joy. Well, I just give it to them and then they got that joy anyway. And they were sitting around talking about it. This one girl had her mother, her father, and her grandparents and her brothers and sisters at this event done by the Black SistaHood. It's another Black organization on campus. And we did a natural hair event last year to Transcribed by Julia Friedman 15 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 particularly talk about our natural hair and how we treated and things we can do to improve, you know. So, and that was a part of it. So, I printed out these huge photos. So, when people walked in, they had a line of all these huge photos of Black men and women in their natural hair, smiling, loving it. And I handed out a lot of these photos at that event and these people with their family and they just loving, they posting it online and everything like. So that right there would probably be the peak, that right there. Visintainer: That's cool. What's the most difficult part of the process of photography or creating art for you? Northington: Uh, impatient people (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Yeah, or people that you're trying to communicate with a person to do what you see in your head. That's always difficult, you know? It's almost like telling somebody to draw something out of your head. That's the way I look at it. It's almost that difficult sometimes because you know, people want to sit and stand like, “Okay, roll your shoulders back.” And then they do the same thing. Okay. “Chin down,” Because this is how people take pictures. “Okay, we're going to take your picture.” Okay. “Stand there.” And then people do this, uh, you have to put your chin down, then they do this. Okay. (Visintainer laughs) You know? And then I'm like, “Alright, one millimeter, two millimeters to the left, to the right.” You know, all right. “Don't look at the camera,” and then I'll take the picture. Or when I get ready to take the picture. Okay, “One, two, three,” and then they pop the same pose. Okay. Well, no, we already posed you. Sit still, “All right, let's go.” You know, and people have a--he did it. Shamar did it. He, you know, keep ticking his head to the left when it’s ready. All one, two, three. And then, you know, and I came to find out, a lot of people have a tick like that. Because people get used to taking photos. So, they have like a go-to pose. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So that go-to pose becomes a difficult thing a lot of times. So, that, and I never like it when, if people are not satisfied with the photo. So, there’s some photos that I put in the books that I really love and other people love them, you know, from the studios and everything. But then that person in the photo didn’t particularly like that one. So, we’ll take thirty or forty and I’ll ask them to choose. And then I’ll tell them the one I like. “You pick two or three and I’ll tell you one I like.” Hopefully they’re the same, but in some cases it’s not the same. And then they’re not as satisfied as I am. So, I don’t like that part either. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: But, it's a part of the process. So. Visintainer: Um, so you published two books of photography. The first book was inspired by the question of hair. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: The representation of hair. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 16 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Uh, what was the second book’s (unintelligible)? Northington: The second book is of Black men. So, the negative characterizing of Black men has always been thugs and criminals. Well, we have all these Black men here on this campus going to school that are not student athletes. They're students, you know? So, they need to be recognized as being students. So, there's plenty of Black men that have graduated from college. That's not what you see on TV. You don't see a college graduate Black man on TV, in a commercial that we know that's what it is. The representation is always a sport, you know? (laughs) Music, you know? It's pretty, after that, it gets thin, you know? So, uh, you can be a comedian, it's entertainment, and it's entertainment-based mostly, you know? And if that's the eighty percent, the ninety percent, maybe even a hundred percent of what you're going to encompass, it's hard to see them as anything else. So, this determines a lot of how we treat people. If I only see Black men represented that way, but then I go home, nobody's --and my home's Black. I'm not Black. I live in a community that's not Black. And my only visual of Black men is all this negative stuff. That's going to play on my comfortability or how I treat them. So now I come to Cal State San Marcos, I get in the elevator and I see a dude like this. I may be a little disheveled. So, if we can change some of those things, because we can, and put out the positive imagery of Black men, then these things can start to, you know, disappear. So, with that in mind, when I did the book for the Black man, again, I want people with all different hairstyles or all different natural hairstyles. But I told them not to smile because I need you to be able to be accepted for having a straight, comfortable face. Northington: I'm just sitting in a class like this, or I'm just in my Uber, or I'm just, you know, at the ATM machine. You shouldn't have to smile, dance, and entertain to be accepted. And those are aspects of vaudeville, ragtime, USA, you know? You can be accepted by this society, entertaining people as a Black man, but can you be accepted when you don't entertain? When you just live life? And that's why we have these, social things that are happening such as barbecuing while Black, driving while Black, shopping while Black. These things occur so much because of how other people view Black men, Black women, Black children. And then you're already castigated and put into the box of criminal or not American, but other American. So, you viewed a certain way. Therefore, you're treated a certain way. And then this causes stress on both ends. So now the stress is building up on us and then the stress is building up on anybody on the other side. And then now it clashes when you get to a campus, when you get to a work environment and you have this wall up on both sides. Well, that doesn't make well for society. And it doesn’t do well for people’s mental health and spiritual health, especially the people on the end receiving all the negativity. So, we can help change some of these things. So, if I'm not the one causing the racism on myself, I'm not the one that needs to make the correction. So, the people viewing this and see these Black men, not smiling, being themselves, looking like me, looking like him, looking like all different aspects of Black men. And you get to view this in a book. They're all students, they're all at this university. They all go unseen. So, let’s put this out here. So now when you see this, it forms now, “Okay, this is a little different than the rapper I saw on TV. This is a little different than the guys I see being chased by the cops.” So, I have to give you another element. So, it allows for some change, but people still have to make that choice themselves. So, that's the point for that one. Visintainer: And then you have a third book you're working on? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 17 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: Yes. And then the third book of this series, this is a series of books. The third book is called, “WE ARE,” and it's going to show the Black men and Black women together on campus doing regular life, you know? Studying, having fun, telling jokes, you know? Walking to their cars, walking to class, you know? Hanging out in the library, all different things, eating together, congregating, just enjoying each other's company. Because again, that's something we don't see propagated by the country, you know? There's a select few, you'll get, you know? If there's a people of color seminar, you know? There's an African American scholarship, then you'll see the commercial art for that be Black people smiling. So, it's not, it doesn't change the standard. That's a particular thing for a particular group of people. And it, you know, it's almost commodified in that way. I want to include us in the standard. So, including us in the standard becomes the change. So, I would look at it in that, in that realm. Visintainer: Do you have a, um, do you have a project after your next project? Are (unintelligible)? Northington: Yes. So as soon as I made the second book, I automatically thought I could just do a bunch of series. So, with this third book completing this series-- also, I did mention before, I think, I maybe told you on the side--all three books, I envisioned them already before I did them. So, I said, “I'm going to make another element to this.” So, the books have the photography and I have a passage in the front of the book that explains the purpose of the book. And then every book has its own title, which I explained on the first page. Then the final page of every book has the thank yous of everybody that we included that gave you the energy to the book. And the thank yous are translated into a different African language. So, with each book, you're going to learn a little bit of a different African language. Now, all three titles of the book in a series complete one sentence. So, the first book is called, “Solar Amalgamations.” The second book is called, “HUEMAN.” And the third book is called, “WE ARE.” And the whole sentence is rearranged: “We are solar amalgamations.” Well, “We are hueman [human] solar amalgamations.” And that generally means, “We are stars,” you know? We're carbon-based human beings. So, this is the carbon-based world. So, and then the human part, I spell “H-U-E-M-A-N” you know? Denoting the shade or the “hue.” Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, “We are human solar amalgamations.” And that completes that trio. After that, there's another book series I'm doing on older Black people that work on campus and things like this. So, I'm particularly looking for fifty [years old] and up, you know? So, and then another series is going to be on Black families and it's going to go on and on and on and on and keep going with that. So, this sparked just a different--and I can, I think I'm going to do this by just (unintelligible), and I'll be able to keep adding more series. So, and that's what that's going to do. So, and then this third book should be out. I want it to be done now, but people’s schedules, it's always tough. The more people that are in the photos, it gets tougher. So, it was a little easier to do the first two books because it was individuals. And then I could put it together in a week or something after I got all the photos, I spent one week putting the whole book together. But we groups. So, these photos are going to be done in groups. It's going be at least two people in every photo. And I’m trying to get some photos of six and seven and twelve people, you know? To add to that, the aspect of us together, “WE ARE,” that's the title. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 18 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: So, it should show us together. So, it may take a little longer than I thought and it may not come out into the spring. So. Visintaier: That’s a lot of scheduling direct. Northington: Yeah, yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: And I have to be the most free because I have to work with everybody else's schedule. So Visintainer: I think that's all of the questions that I had. Northington: Okay. Visintainer: Was there anything that I should have asked you about that I didn't? Northington: The recent recognition that's happening that never happened. I've been here going on my fourth year, as I said. And when I spoke about people being invisible, that includes me as well. So, I had to sit back and watch my fellow students that are in class with me, get their work recognized every year, every semester, over and over, you know? People that ask for my help or people that I ask for help. We're all in the same class. And you know, there's a nursing program, they all go to the same classes. There’s sociology, they all-- same thing with art. We're all in the same classes, especially in my student discipline, art and technology, we're all in the same classes. So, to see some of those students get their work put out or get recognized or see their work, you know, in different areas on campus or whatever I say, “Okay, this is how this works.” So, it doesn't stop. It doesn't turn off. So now, you know, you just come here and then you see the work in the, in the art-- it all just linked up. The students in the art department that put on the exhibit, the art juncture, you know, they reached out because a few of my art professors let them know. So, all of those pieces kind of came together at once. So, you know, I did old people's luncheon, I did photography for them, did their programs and all these other things. This all happened in one month. That part, the school newspaper reached out to me and did an interview and they put it in a newspaper and they posted my photos. Another group of people for Art Equals Opportunity that they work in a--in the San Diego area using art to help students, you know, learn the lessons of English, you know, history, science, and everything. But using the conduit of art, they posted me on their website. All of this happened in the same month. And then you walk in, you know? And your coworker sees the work and then we meet to do this. And all, all of this just happened at once. That's just that. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Then the last, last week I submitted some of these photos to, ah, Lycoming College. It’s in, uh, Pennsylvania. It’s in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And there was this huge national search for all Black art for their exhibit called “Blurred Expectations.” That’s open now. It just opened today. Everybody across the country submitted. Somebody that knew me said, “Hey, you should submit your stuff to this.” I submitted it. Boom, immediately. They was like, “Yes, it’s in.” So, once this exhibit ended here, the very next day, I had to take it down and ship it. Visintaier: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 19 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: Uh, to Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And it’s up right now in their exhibit. And then ASI, the ASI student government here, just accepted one of my pieces for that art project. So, within two months, this semester, all of the work I've been doing for years, you know? Some of this book is 2017. This book is 2018., you know? And I'm currently doing--so these things are year, two years old, after I watch all of my, you know, fellow students be recognized. All of mine is coming right here in two months. So that's, you know, that's been a big change. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, congratulations. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: How long is the exhibition in Virginia up for? Northington: Until the beginning of February. So, they got a couple of months. Yeah. I think it’s right at two and a half months. Something like that. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: No, the end of November. All of December. All of January. Yeah. So, it's right at like two and a half months. Think they got like eight week-Visintainer: (both talking at once) Is there going to— Northington: (both talking at once) --be six week, ten weeks, something like that. Visintainer: Is there going to be a digital component to it? Northington: Well, they've been posting videos and uh, you know, tagging all of the artists in it and everything like that. And they made--they made a social media page, they made an Instagram page. So that's how everybody's keeping up who's not in their area at that school. And it's like a huge four-year private institution. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: That costs like ten times as much as this school to go to. So, it’s-- and it was a national search. So, it's-- it is, it is good to add to, ah, you know, to a resume for something like that. So, I mean (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: You know, it's like on my way out the door, I have all these résumé items now that didn't exist before, you know? Even though I've done so much work on this campus going unrecognized, but it's now, it's now all happening right now at the perfect time. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: I can appreciate that. So, uh, and I also wanted to mention all the supporters that helped over this time. So, Miss Ariel Stevenson from the Office of Inclusive Excellence. Uh, Mrs. Marilyn McWilliams, Office of Inclusive Excellence, Dr. Sharon Elise, you know? These are people who supported me from the beginning to now. No holds barred, you know? They even got a little flack, you know, at times, because I'm not as accepted as everybody else. So, you know, they've asked me to do different Transcribed by Julia Friedman 20 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 projects on campus. They supported, they came to all of the events, you know? We established another club on campus: The Black SistaHood to encompass all these elements I spoke about, about photography, my photography, Black-specific, and how it assist in helping us get through this society and try to make some things positive where we turn that into a student club and organization. So, that's why I have this. That's why wore this sweater for this interview. So no, and this is more pushing love for people, you know? Loving each other, breaking through some of these stereotypes and turning these negatives into positives and becoming, you know, great people in life. So, and a lot of that's going to be exemplified in the third book, in the, “WE ARE” book, you know? So, uh, been a part of Black Student Union since I've been here, you know? Some--there was some people in the sorority, Black sorority and Black fraternity, Sigma Gamma and Omega Psi Phi, a few, there's a few individuals that supported me and helped as well. And then the Black Student Center itself has been the hub for all of this. So once that was established and created, it allowed me a centered space because before I had to walk around the entire campus, like loop every building and hang out during every U-hour, whether I had class or not. And just try to like find people. So that's what I had to do before. And it's like the people out here right now, “Are you registered to vote? Are you registered to vote?” I was one of those people. With my camera and no book because the book is not made yet. So, I'm out here with a printed sheet of paper. “Hey, would you like to take a photo for my project?” And this-- and that was not as, you know, as presenting, you know, as to walk up with an already made book. So, once I got the first book, I got more yeses. Once I had two books, I got--you know, so the yeses come a lot easier. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, having the, the Black Student Center here, I get the crowd now. So now I have more people to choose from and it's just so much easier to do it now than it was, you know, in 2016, when I started the first book. So, it's a lot easier now. So, that may--that may be it. And uh, as long as you using the terminology "Black,” because I don't, I don't use “African American” or “people of color.” Visintainer: Yeah Northington: So, while y'all printing this, any, any printing that has to be done uh-Vistintainer: I'll, I'll send you any verbiage that we do. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And then that way you can look it over and-Northington: Okay, okay. Visintainer: Correct me, if I'm making a mistake. Northington: (laughs) Well, you know, it's not a mistake for other people, but for me that, you know, it just doesn't work for me. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, that might be it. And then shout out to the, the people who are coming behind me, you know, Shamar. We got (unintelligible) Williams. She's been working with me the most here. So, she's a senior now and she's in my same major field: visual performing arts. And she's helped a lot over the last Transcribed by Julia Friedman 21 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 year because I've been just forcing her and pushing her to do her photos, to do her artwork, you know? And then as I mentioned with Gordon Parks, this isn't one element, like I told you before, the photo is just one thing that I've done on this campus. So, I make these shirts, I make these logos, these designs, you know? So, all of the BSU gear you've seen, all of the Black Student Center gear you've seen for the most part, all the Black SistaHood, Black Brotherhood, you know, Transitions Collective. I did some logos for them. Project Rebound, I'm designing a logo for them right now. So, there's so many elements to the artwork that I produced on campus. So, and I've done about four or five, like a components--we just saw the art exhibit. But then I already did two exhibits here in the library and we're working on the third with the art department right now on sustainability. So, I have an art project, uh, a water art project that's going to be in sustainability, you know? If that happens in the spring, that's still talking about that. I did a sustainability project with ASI about straws. And this was right before they banned straws on this campus. We were trying to make a push to get rid of straws and how this affected the aquatic life. And we, you know, we created like a sea turtle with a straw in his mouth and shows how this kind of messes them up. So, uh, spent a lot of things like that on campus. So, I just want to make sure it's not just photography. Visintainer: Sure. Northington: I would say it's art and I'm sure you understand that it's art and, but this part is the photography, but there's so much more that I've been a part of on campus than that. And now I want the next group of people like Shamar to come along and continue it. Because if I--you know, once I leave it's over, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't end. It should be fifteen, twenty more people. So, I try to do my part and help them learn the right avenues, meet some people, you know? That's why I asked them to come and be here and to see a different process, you know? "Okay, this is where I started. And then I could do this, this, this, this, this.” They can do the same thing I'm doing, you know? It's not, it's not that special. You have to do the work, you know? You have your vision, you have what, your passion and then you need to do the work. And you'll get everything that you want out of it. So. And that's, that's probably all I got right there. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: Well, thank you, Jake. Northington: (both talking at once) No problem. Visintainer: (talking at once) I really appreciate you coming by and chatting with us. Northington: Make sure we see, uhVisintainer: Yes. Northington: The women that I love. And then the men’s book. And the third book will be coming soon. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Alright. Visintainer: Thank you, sir. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 22 2022-09-27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northington, Jake. Interview transcript. November 22, 2019. Description An account of the resource Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. In this interview, Jake discusses his artistic influences, the importance of Black representation in his photography, and his involvement in CSUSM’s Black Student Center and the Black SistaHood. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jake Northington Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-11-22 Subject The topic of the resource Artists, Black California State University San Marcos -- Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Students Portrait photography Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) East Saint Louis (Ill.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-13 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-09-27 Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d3c147170d930bc7f12d9f580bba4753.pdf ad9279d0bc173837718e150a224623cd PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS MJ Teater: All right. It is recording now. All right. So today is Thursday, April 6th, 2022 at 1:07 PM. I am MJ Teater, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing narrator Theresa Rios for the University Library Special Collections Oral History Project. Theresa, thank you for being here with me today. Theresa Rios: You're very welcome. Teater: <laughs> All right. Just to get started, can you introduce yourself, like, say your name and when you were, or maybe not when you were born, but where you were born? Rios: Mm-hmm. My name is Theresa Rios. I was born in Clifton, Arizona. Teater: I'm going to ask you a few questions about your childhood and maybe your upbringing. So, how long have you lived in San Diego if you were born in Arizona? Rios: I came to Escondido in 1970. I brought my four children and myself and we moved here and my exhusband and I have been here for fifty years. I lived in La Jolla for five years. I love Escondido. I came back to Escondido in I believe, [19]78. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And I have been here ever since. Teater: Wow. I love that. That's so cool. So at what point did you become a librarian? Or what was your journey to become a librarian? Rios: My journey was-- I have this write up from this Hispanic newspaper and it tells me here when I started the library was in... back in, oh my goodness. I’m little nervous, but not really. Anyway, I came, I started working, I came back to Escondido. I started going to Palomar College and from there I met my husband, Dan Rios. After that, I left Palomar College and I went to the employment office and they sent me to the [Escondido Public] library and I got this job at the library and I thought, my goodness, I love this job. And so I started by being a library assistant. And from there, they started giving me some privileges about -being Hispanic, there was no Hispanic library books for either the children and even the adults. So I Transcribed by MJ Teater 1 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS started-- Oh my goodness. I started, well translating for the library, whatever they needed. Anytime they needed a Hispanic to translate something, they would call me. I started teaching some of the librarians, what to, how to discuss things in Spanish or to answer in Spanish when someone came to the library and had no Spanish experience or could not. But there was no one that would write anything. I transferred papers, whatever they needed. Then I started seeing that the children, I started saying stories to the children and I noticed where a lot of the Hispanic children did not understand what we were saying [in English], what I was saying to them. And, so then I told my supervisor, I think we should start a Hispanic program – a storytelling time. And so he said, yes, whatever, it would be wonderful. Go ahead. Whatever you think. And at that time, I had a lot of the mothers that came with their children sometimes, and they also didn't know English. And so I decided to start Las Embajadores de Escondido. And they, they just thought again, Liz Painter was one of them. She helped, she helped a lot, because she was very friendly with all the people and she also wanted us to try something different. So again, I said, yes, let's do this. Let's tell the stories to the children in Spanish. And so there's a nice picture. The newspaper came over -- The [Escondido] Times Advocate -- and I have this, I'm sorry. Teater: It's okay. Do you want me to pause the recording? Rios: Yes. One moment. Okay. There's a very nice picture of me with this book that I would tell this story, Las Zapatitos Colorados, “The Red Shoes” and with this story, I would tell all the children to be very careful about who they went with, how not to go with just anyone and just sort of try to... tell them to be cautious, but at the same time, there was a lot to learn. We had a lot to learn. But you you'd have to see this, this article. And do you read Spanish? Teater: I know enough to muddle through it, you know <laugh> Rios: Oh good, good. Because this whole page is in Spanish. It's from the Hispanico, Hispanic Times. And it was way back in 2000. June 22nd, 2000. And it says Theresa Rios, nueva de delegate al club del parlementaria. Parliamentary. Teater: Oh cool. Rios: And before that well I was at Palomar College. I was with Concerned Citizens of Escondido at A Day With Your Neighbor Luncheon on May 7th, 1982: Theresa Rios, Pichacon Lupita, and George Lopez. And there's my boss over here. He's not mentioned, Jon Ericson. Anyway, there's a whole page of me with a picture of the, telling the story to the children. And I would like for you to see that, cause it just explains a lot. I had no idea I had done so much. <laughter>, it's bringing back all these memories and I loved it. I mean the, the library to me was like home. I mean wonderful. Teater: That's fantastic. Rios: Transcribed by MJ Teater 2 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS Anyway, again, like I say, anything you asked me to do, whether it was a police department or it was the library or my bosses, the children were very important to get them started learning. I still have many friends here in Escondido that when I see, we talk about all the things that we did. And the library I've been going there and Roberta, she was my dear friend there. Just a lot of the gals that were, that are still there. Some of them the other day I went to the library and there was Francine, this one, she said “Theresa! How are you? I haven't seen you in,” you know, things like that. And I just love the library. I love going back. I'm just gonna kinda stay in touch, you know? Teater: Yeah. That's, that's great. That's so great. Rios: Back to, I mean, back to the -- what other question, I mean, I think I mentioned... Teater: That was a good starting point. So, can you tell me more about the Embajadores program? Rios: Yes, the Embajadores we, like I said, the children's mothers, some of them, some were elderly ladies that came to the library that were my friends that I would tell them, come join us. I mean, come join the Embajadores. We want every child in Escondido to have a library card. Teater: Oh. Rios: I want every child to know, to learn how to read at a very young age. And so they came, they came from all over and we would have -- one time we had this salsa contest, not a contest, but everybody brought different kinds of salsa and my salsa won a blue ribbon. <laughs> Teater: Ooh. Rios: It was technically a blue ribbon. It was just a wonderful time. And the people came, we would have different places that would sponsor us. One of them was El Tapatilla in Escondido would send food. Again, a lot of stuff that's in this article brings back a lot of memories. But the Embajadores came and they gave tours. I taught them to give tours through the library. I taught 'em to sit and talk with people that need just answers in Spanish or just to get together with other ladies that, that spoke Spanish only. And then bring them in as far as, trying to -- if they wanted an education, if they wanted to join literacy [program], things like that. I mean, literacy was just starting; the literacy program. And, and we had, you know, different people teaching other people Spanish or English or... Teater: And about when were these programs happening? Rios: That was back in that era, which is, you know... [unclear] There's a lot of paperwork that have here that I I've been going through, but you know, it's been so long. It's been-Teater: Transcribed by MJ Teater 3 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS Yeah. Yeah. Well that's okay. We can keep going. So, can you explain how, like early reading programs are impactful for a child's life? Like why that was so important to you? Rios: Because when I went to-- the reason that I believe this is so important is because I also, when I went to started kindergarten, I did not know a word of English. Very little, very, very little. My parents did not, we did not speak English at home. My father knew a little more than my mother, my mother didn't. I mean, because of her hardships, her mother died when she was, I believe, in third grade, I'm not sure, but the schools were what, you know, and she lived in a ranch and she was left with four or five or six little ones that she helped grow up. And a baby that my, her, my grandmother, her mother died. So my mother always thought education was very important. You need it. She would get very upset. Um, so I knew that... And then I have -- Me marrying so young and having four children. I decided, nuh-uh, if I would've had this education before, I would have, you know, not being so afraid of trying of being around people that could teach me that could read, could that would teach me. I mean, there was no nothing in Clifton Arizona where I was born. There was, there was some things, but not enough to inspire me at a young age. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And so I believe that if the children could get it right into them and tell me their stories, and then I would try to direct them when I would ask questions. Well, what do you do? How do you read at home? Do you do this? No... Do you like coming to the library? Oh yes. We like it. Do you like to hear stories? Oh, yes. And then I would ask some of the children little questions. I don't know if I should say this, but What do you do? Oh, we drink tequila. Teater: <laugh> oh, no, Rios: We would laugh over that That. I said, “Oh, no, we gotta get this--” <laugh>. I mean, I don't mean to it it's part of growing up it's in their environment, their family so again, I, I would see parents and I would say, well, you know, good, this is not so good. But, oh my God. And it just, I mean, you'd have to talk to my supervisor, which was Joanne, oh, my away. Well, and Laura Mitchell was also one of my bosses. And like I said, city manager at the time, I can't, it's gone right now, but I'll have to get those names if you need 'em. But they would, give me card blank for whatever I wanted to do. I was so fortunate and so lucky and, a lot of like Graham Humphrey, he was the head of the library at the time. And he knew my husband very well. Dan Teater: Mm-hmm <affirmative>, Rios: Transcribed by MJ Teater 4 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS And again, all I had to do was, well, Mr. Humphrey told me I want more Hispanic children here. I want, I don't-- at the time, I don't know whether he meant to say anything like this, but he said, I don't wanna see all this white Anglo-Saxons <affirmative> and I thought, oh my God. I mean because I believe that they're the white or the black or the Hispanic. We, they all need to learn everybody. <affirmative> Everybody needs to get some sense when they're young of what's going on and reading stories. I had no prejudice whatsoever, but I also understood the situation: who had the opportunities at home who didn't. And the ones that didn't of course would take priority of my attention, because I would have to explain myself more to them or listen to them a little more, so that they give me ideas of what, how I could help and how everybody in the library could help. Not just me. I didn't want, whenever somebody treated any of 'em with disrespect, I would just jump up and say, no, it's not the way we treat people. I mean, I had to fight everybody, not fight, but kind of. Teater: But yeah, I know what you mean. Rios: And I'm still doing it. I still do it. Even in my church at resurrection and everybody is welcome. Everybody is a child of Jesus. Everybody deserves a right to be heard. Of course, sometimes people are not in the mood to be heard or this and that. But with me, they'll come and tell me anything. and I feel how can I say I, a lot of humility that they can do that with me. But I feel if they're wrong, I'll tell them if they're hurting, I'll listen. And if they just wanna talk, that's good too. So we get along and that's how I get along at the library, and all my life. Teater: That’s Fantastic Rios: I guess this is how I tried to be. And what else can I tell you? Teater: <laugh> all right. Let me, let me look through my questions because you're, you're answering so many of them. So what can library librarians who only speak English do to support the Spanish speakers of, you know, Escondido and San Diego? Rios: What could they do? Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: Is that the question? Teater: Transcribed by MJ Teater 5 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS Yes. Rios: They could take classes in Spanish mm-hmm <affirmative> They could have someone there to help interpret. They just like, you know, now a lot of people are coming like from other countries and we have to continue to learn. <affirmative> Although I'm fluent Spanish and English, I love French, but you know, I'm not that good at it. And I I'm very close to my Filipino friends. I have a daughter-in-law that's married to my son and a wonderful family. And here in Escondido, I very belong to my church at resurrection eighties and the man, all we are very good friends on the counter. I am a greeter at my church on Sundays. <affirmative> I, we all work together. So Like I say, whoever walks into that door always gets a good morning from me when I am greeting. And a lot of them too. And I say, we need to be very kind, but at the same time we need to. But anybody just run out, you know, they're having a problem. One, we have to kinda-Teater: What other, are there any other initiatives that you worked on while you were in the library? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your supervisors. Rios: Well I was on the desk. I started on the desk. Like I said, greeting people and what do they need? Or they would tell me what I need to find out this, I need to go to this desk or I need to go here. I need to, I need to know about that. So I would direct them to wherever. That was part of our job, to direct people, to wherever they needed to go and help them. If they couldn't find something, if they had the librarian on the desk was busy we could try and just keep them moving. But at the same time, I had meetings with several people. I mean they have this special room. Can't think of it right now. I mean, it's just upstairs, but I would do whatever it took to for the children to have special things going on. I mean, yeah, I have to go back. But if you see this picture of me taken when I would read stories, oh, and I got, I got this job at the library, like I said, way back then, but my husband and I were planning a trip to Mexico City, Mexico, a three week trip through me to Mexico. And I told my boss, I told Joanne Greenberg. I said, I think this was in August that I got hired around that time. And in December, we were planning to go to Mexico for three weeks, four weeks. And I said, I would have to work here, but I have to ask, my husband and I are going to go to Mexico, and I want to go very badly. I've never been to Mexico City. And, if you will, let me go. And, and let me come back to this job. I promise to work as hard as I can. And, you know, they let me do this after just being hired a couple of months. And I was all very grateful for that. We had a lovely time in Mexico. We had children running after our van and I mean things I saw and and my husband being a photographer, took pictures of the kids and the dresses, the colors. It was amazing. So I came back to the library and <affirmative>, I had all those stories in me from, for the children and for, you know, even adults. Teater: Mm-hmm <affirmative> sounds like, that sounds awesome. Rios: Seeing the no education, you know, a lot of we were out in the mountains where there were, and I said, and here they get a chance to come to America. And here we have all these mentees for them. So again, Mr. Humphrey had told me just whatever you need to do. And Joanne Greenberg the same. And then Transcribed by MJ Teater 6 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS Laura Mitchell, she's whatever I wanted to do till my husband got sick. And then I said, I can't anymore, I have to-- <affirmative> He had Gotten this infection that he hardly couldn't walk for about a year. Teater: Oh no. Rios: But I took care of him. And, and he, we did wonderful, I mean, far as, and he came out of it and now he's on dialysis. He has been for five years. And again, it's a challenge just every day is a something new, but, but I live a quiet life. And if I can be, I tell people at my church, I will be here, but if I can't-- <affirmative> And, and that's the way I said, if you want me that way fine. If not, well, I have to something else, because as far as my church and my masses, I can always see them at home. I can, you know, do other things, especially now that everything is on TV. So, yeah. But at the same time, I'm very close to my priests that we built this new church here in Escondido, Resurrection, and I have had a lot of opportunities to help there. And again, I meet a lot of my people from the library and invite 'em there and come and see and bring your children. And again, I'm still involved. Teater: So you're still involved with children's programs then? Rios: Not as much as I would like to be, because, like I said, I can't commit myself too much because of my husband. Teater: Yeah. Rios: I have things that I need to do, but any chance I have, and they're having something really special, I try to attend. Teater: That's Nice. Rios: Or I just, I have a kind connection with the children at the church. And, and I just love it; just even when they just say good morning, back to me, or hello or goodbye. And excited and on their way. And I'm on my way too. Teater: Sounds awesome. What has your-- what has connecting to children, or what has connecting to children meant to you? Like over the years as a librarian? Rios: Transcribed by MJ Teater 7 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS What has connected mean to children? Teater: No. What has your connection with children meant to you as a librarian over the years? Rios: The in, oh, I just love to hear a child read. I love to just see their little faces when they hear a story. I'm just know, like I said, I have four of my own and, and a lot of nieces, I come from a family of ten, five brothers and five sisters. So I have nieces and nephews. And, anytime I'm Aunt Terry or Aunt T, or <laugh>, you know, we have a connection with, and in the library, of course they all know that, that I worked there. Anybody could come and, and visit their friends, cousins, nieces, nephews. And one time I had my grandson at the library. I baby him in the summer. Because my daughter and her husband had business to take care of up in Woodland, California. I mean Auburn. <affirmative> And Mr. Humphrey says, oh, my, my grandson was, I think he was seven or, or so seven years anyway, I had him in, enrolled him into the Boys and Girls Club. And so I had my friend Darlene from the library take him and they came back, both of them crying. <laugh> Teater: Oh, no. Rios: My grandson wouldn't stay. He would, he wouldn't stay. And I was working at the library. I couldn't, you know, I've taken care of customers. And so they came back crying, and then I said, okay, you come to the back. And I set him down there and I said, don't you move, you stay right there and eat your lunch or whatever. And anyway Mr. Humphrey was very kind, he never said a word to me about, yeah. Was that of order or anything. I mean, he let me do whatever was necessary for me to continue working there. Teater: I love that. That's so sweet. Rios: My grandson. I mean he loved being there at the library with me. <laugh> can I say, I mean, family always came first with me and I tell all my, the people that I know when they can't attend a meeting, that I, or something that I'm involved with, I say, and they say, my family, my doc, or doctors do whatever families first you take care of that, do not worry about anything else. And I'm saying it's family first when they need whatever they need. But at the same time I live my own life. It's a different life because my husband and I have been married forty-one years. Cause he's my third husband. So I have to do what is necessary to have a good life. And at the same time, do what what's good for other people, especially children and others. But when I can't do it, I can't do it. Like I said, in my home comes first right now with my ill husband has been ill for over 20 years. Teater: Oh no. Rios: Transcribed by MJ Teater 8 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS And he retired. So, but he manages, he's a wonderful person. I mean, I could not ask for a better mate. Teater: Well, that's good to hear. I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to add to your experience as a librarian or anything about that? Rios: Well, I just want you to make sure that, is there any way I can mail this literature to you, this newspaper articles and some of the things that I've did or I'll tell you, do you ever get to the pioneer room? Teater: I do not. So for here, I'm gonna pause the recording. --All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Theresa. It was really great talking to you and learning all about your experience as a librarian and your impact on literacy in Escondido. It sounds so fulfilling. Thank you for your time today. Rios: You're so welcome. And Jay, what, what was your name, Jay? Teater: What? My name is MJ. Rios: MJ. I knew I had one right. Okay. MJ, thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to say all these things that I hope will help other people. Teater: Yeah, they will. Thank you so much for your time today. Rios: You're so welcome. Teater: Okay. All right. Have a good rest of your day. Rios: You too goodly. Teater: All right. Bye. Bye. Transcribed by MJ Teater 9 2022-05-13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Theresa. Interview transcript. April 7, 2022. Description An account of the resource Theresa Rios is a retired Escondido librarian, where she created Las Embajadores Biblioteca. In this interview, Theresa discusses teaching children to read, empowering children to learn, and how her childhood impacted her passion for teaching children to read and love learning. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Theresa Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource MJ Teater Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-07 Subject The topic of the resource Latine Americans Libraries -- Literacy Public libraries Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Arizona Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Theresa Rios License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-17 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-05-13 Community history History Department internship Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2eee91e0e2d04044ac88b9eed26e8b6e.pdf 16109e90e2d9db6e598a6fded4b5ae71 PDF Text Text LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Robert Sheehan: So today is April the sixth, 2022. It's a Wednesday at 1:03 PM. I am Robert Sheehan, a graduate student at California State University, San Marcos. And today I am interviewing Lilian Serrano for the university library, special collections, oral history project. Lilian, thank you for being here with me today. Lilian Serrano: Uh, yes. Thank you, Robert <laugh> Sheehan: I'd like to first start kind of by asking you about your childhood: when and where were you born? Serrano: I was actually born in Chula Vista here in San Diego County, very close to the border, but I was raised in Tijuana. So actually my parents didn't live in Chula Vista at the time when I was born. My parents, just like many other border residents, took advantage of the geographic location where they were living at, and seek the best healthcare they could afford. And for my parents who were Tijuana residents, that meant Chula Vista. So I was born in Chula Vista. Sheehan: Okay. So you were born as an American citizen? Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: And your parents were still in Mexico? Serrano: Yes. Like I said my family is a transnational family that has made Tijuana/San Diego our home for many generations now. So, my parents were residents of Tijuana. They're Mexican citizens. And there is actually, um, contrary to public belief, there's actually nothing illegal about folks coming in and -Robert, give me one second. Sheehan: Sure. [Interview interrupted] Sheehan: Hi, we are resuming the interview at 1:05. Lilian, you were talking about your parents in Tijuana and how they, uh, it was a common thing for people to move between the border. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 1 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Serrano: Yeah, it continues to be actually a common thing for residents of the border region. My family has been going back and forth from the border to the U.S. and Mexico side for at least five generations now. But my family, it is all originally from Mexico. So, my parents as Mexican citizens and as Tijuana residents -actually, both my parents were born and raised in Tijuana. Their whole lives, they cross back and forth between San Diego to Tijuana. They had at the time when I was born, they had their tourist visas. And like I was mentioning, contrary to popular belief, there's nothing illegal about folks being able, uh, receiving medical service in the U.S. as long as they're paying for them. And that's what my parents did at the time. They were able to, you know, afford to pay for every doctor visit, every medicine, everything that involves giving birth. So they did. And I was born in Chula Vista. And so did the rest of my sisters. So, there's three of us. All of us were born in Chula Vista and then actually a lot of my cousins and even just family friends that I grew up with. All of us, a lot of us, were born in, this U.S. side of the border, but we lived Tijuana to Mexican parents. Sheehan: That's very, very interesting. So do you still live on the American side of the border? Serrano: Yes, so actually it wasn't until I was probably about two weeks right before my 14th birthday that my family decided--and I mean they had been talking about it for a while--but they decided that it was time we made the hard decision of leaving, our hometown, my parent’s hometown, right, Tijuana, to the United States. And we moved to Oxnard, California in Ventura County. A small [unclear] cultural town where my great grandma had moved, like I said, many years before I was even born. And my grandparents were living there at the time. So my parents made the decision to move us to the United States. And I've been residing in the United States since I was two weeks before my 14th birthday until present. Sheehan: So do you still have family then south of the border in Tijuana? Serrano: Yeah, the house where I grew up, we still have it there. So I go visit. I still have a lot of family friends, family members, you know, aunts and uncles, cousins. Some of my cousins who are U.S. citizens that continue to live in Tijuana, I don't think really, they have ever in their entire lives, and they're like in their thirties now, ever lived actually live in the United States. They come visit, but they don't live here, their U.S. citizens that live in Tijuana. Sheehan: Wow. So what did your parents do for living, Serrano: When now, or <laugh>? Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 2 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Sheehan: Well, both when back then and now what do they do? Serrano: So, at the, uh, when, you know, back when I was born my parents had their own business. So, you know, that goes back to the ability to have a visa and actually be able to afford medical services. Also, I mean, giving birth back then, according to what my parents share with me, wasn't as expensive as it is now, right. Affording a medical services wasn't as expense. So my parents were definitely what some folks will consider maybe lower middle class, ‘cause they had their own small business. A family run business. And so that's what they did for a living. As things start getting more complicated and you know, big corporations start coming in and it was just harder for them to keep up with their small business. That is actually a big part. That and the reality that hit them, that they had three girls aging, almost approaching college time and looking at college tuitions, not being as affordable. That the reality of them having to move the family to the United States to seek better opportunities. That's when they made that tough decision. So, they shut down their business and they moved to, like I said, to Oxnard, California. And Oxnard is a primarily agricultural town. So when they first arrived, my parents went from being business owners to them being farm workers. So my dad actually worked out in the tomato fields. It wasn't for a long time, but he nonetheless, the continue of the years, he continued to do work that indirectly was related to the agricultural field. From packing plants to transportation centers, and warehouse and everything that is involved within the production of fresh produce. And so did my mom. Actually, my mom until not a long time ago worked at packing vegetables. Just different variety of vegetables--tomatoes, avocados, broccoli. I think the list goes on. But my parents were for all my high school and most of my college years, they were considered farm workers. Nowadays as they are a little older--and they just recently moved to San Diego County--my dad is not working right now because of his health condition. And my mom, is uh, she's working at a manufacturing job. Labor work. Sheehan: And what was their small business in Mexico? What did they do? Serrano: Yeah, they had a little store, a little market. It's called abarrotes in Mexico. So, they sell a little bit of everything. You know, fresh produce, meats. Just like any corner convenient little market store that you can think of. That that's what my parents did. That business was actually originally opened by my greatgrandparents when they first arrived to Tijuana and it was passed down generations until it was my parents who, once again, had to make the tough decision of shutting it down. Sheehan: So that really must have been a difficult decision to make, to leave all that behind. Serrano: It definitely was. I know that they invested many years of their lives. I mean, my mom grew up in that business. By the time my mom was born that my great grandparents already had the business. So, you know, my mom grew up there. I spent most the first, at least half of my life right there. Anything from having to help clean up the business to sometimes as I was getting older, having to take care of the Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 3 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 registry and, you know, like just handling cash, fixing, restocking, everything, right? Like we, we have that in common with my mom where we both, we all grew up in that store. But yeah, it was a tough decision, but I think, you know, like most parents, they did what they had to do. Sheehan: So growing up, you went to school all the way up until the beginning of high school in Mexico. Serrano: Yeah, actually, I did up to one year of middle school. And because of when like the U.S. and Mexico, we don't have a synched schedule when we cut the birthdays to like a new grade. I ended up following this like gap in between, so I skipped eighth grade. <laugh> I didn't have eighth grade either in Mexico or here. So I did everything from preschool to seventh grade in Mexico. And then I moved to Oxnard to start ninth grade, or high school. So that's where I started my high school. And I did all my high school in Oxnard. Graduated from Oxnard High School. Sheehan: And how was that transition from a Mexican middle school to an American high school? Serrano: It was interesting. <laugh> It was very, um, I mean, once again, I had the privilege I think that a lot of folks don't have of my parents were, um, used to be able to afford for me to go to private schools. Now they were not the biggest, most popular or, you know, expensive private schools, but nonetheless, they were private schools. So I was able to get some extra help in my classes. I was used to my class sizes being about 15 to 20 students and that 20 students was a big class for us. Most of, for the most part, I had small classes in size. And I used to, you know, have just your regular, I guess, subjects. Right. History, um, I didn't have English. I had Spanish. English was taught as the foreign language. So when I transitioned to the United States, I transitioned from small classroom size, um, class to now being put in a public school in a community that lacks a lot of resources. So I was thrown into high school with now being the culture clash of my class now double in size. I didn't have as much support from teachers plus the language. Right. Like I struggled with my English. I didn't really, I don't think I really spoke English before I started high school. So now I had to learn the language. So I was placed in ELD or ESL classes. I was placed also in what was offered at the time for bilingual classes, which was really lower like level math and the lowest level of science and basically all of the subjects. And even at the time, right. I remember very clearly having the conversation with my math teacher. They did an assessment; my math skills were actually really advanced for ninth graders. Because once again, I had had the support and I develop my math skills. But because of language, I was not able to be placed on the correct level of class because that level of class was not offered for ESL students. So I had to be placed in pre-algebra even though I had skills to be placed, I think in like geometry, which was at least one year, if not, two advanced. But I just didn't understand the language <laugh>. So that was a challenge for sure. I was also, once again, because I understood very clearly to me that the sacrifice my family was making was just to give me and my sisters opportunity to attend college. And me and my older sister had also that pressure, right. Now we have to make sure that our family sacrifice was worth it. So we had always, you know, since my first day of high school I had in mind that I was there to learn and to meet all the requirements to go to a four-year university. So as an ESL student that really meant having to reclassify, right? Like having to go through the whole process, finish and Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 4 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 learn and acquire enough English skills to be able to be placed in college prep classes to then be able to meet the A through G requirements. All of that in the lapse of four years. And actually, I was able to achieve that. I ended up, um, I always kind of joke, but not really with my friends that I had to do the A through G requirements, which is supposed to take you four years. I completed those in two years. ‘Cause I took the first two years of my high school to really just learn the language. And then, like I said, gain enough proficiency to be able to be placed in college prep classes. And then it took me two years, which meant took classes before school, after school, attended community college classes during the summer. And any opportunity that I could to, like, I took to be able to gain those, uh, or be able to meet the A through G requirements that allowed me then my senior year apply to a four-year university. And not just apply, but actually be accepted. So I gained acceptance to a few universities actually. I think, I don't remember receiving any letter denying my acceptance. Then it became a matter of where I was gonna go. And I chose Cal State San Marcos. Sheehan: So that was quite the journey then to come from Mexico and, like you said, to only have basically two years of that kind of more advanced high school because the school didn't have a bilingual program. So they placed you at a lower level. Do you think the-Serrano: I mean, we did have a bilingual program, but the bilingual program was, we didn't have all the levels of math, all the levels of science proficiency in bilingual, right. Like, they just had like the beginner. So for those of us who had had the opportunity to actually have, uh, acquire some, you know, skills in our home countries or the countries we were coming from, and we were placed in the beginner just because they, it was not that many of us for them to create a full class. Plus, I'm pretty sure the school didn't have the resources to do that. Sheehan: Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is, do you think that's endemic in American schools? They don't have the resources to teach children of immigrants. Serrano: Definitely. I mean, even though I'm not technically an immigrant, right. Because of my experience of coming from a different educational system and really living in, in outside of the United States and then coming in and learning the language, I did experience a little bit of what some folks experience when they transitioned into United States at a young age. So all of my classmates in high school and all my friends--really because our classmates become our friends at that age, especially as you're new in a new city--all of my classmates and friends for the most part were immigrants. Folks who were born outside of the United States. And we were all coming from very different backgrounds. Given the type of industry that prevails in Oxnard, a lot of them were coming from small village in Mexico and/or Central America in which their families were farmers. So when they came to United States, that's what they were gonna do. They were gonna be farm workers. So definitely, a lot of my classmates had never attended a formal school ever in their lives. Some of them were struggling to learn Spanish actually because their first language was an indigenous language. And some of them, you know, were still struggling with the education. So for them, definitely, they needed that kind of low math and low science classes because they didn't have the basic skills to be able to learn more advanced math. But for some of us--and it was, we were the minority, I guess, in that Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 5 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 group that had had those opportunities outside of the United States--we were still placed in the same level of math and science, just because our English was just not at the same level as a regular high school student. So there is a lot of diversity, I will say among immigrant youth. And a lot of times we don't get to see that because we are focused only on those who have the biggest needs, I guess. Sheehan: So in your opinion, what would be the way that schools could go about helping that education process? Is there a way that someone who has more advanced skills like yourself in math would be able to apply those skills successfully in a high school setting? Serrano: Well, I think for that, it would require for us to really invest in our English learner programs. We know that, unfortunately, our English learner programs tend to be underfunded. Right. They just don't have the resources to really address the need. The need is big. We still have a lot of kids who are U.S. citizens who were born and attend, you know, all the K through 12 in the United States, but that never really reclassify, never really gained that proficiency in English in part, because they don't, um, you know, when they get home, they primarily speak Spanish. And they attend schools who don't have the resources to provide that more one on one that like individual support that a lot of students require. So I really think to address that question, like really the problem is that our schools are underserved. We don't have enough resources. We don't have enough teachers. We don't pay our teachers enough. Like we don't have enough specialized teachers. I still remember, and that was not my experience. But in my last year of high school, the amount of ESL students that we had in my high school was so big that we didn't have enough ESL teachers. So we ended up opening one class with a teacher who had, I think studied two years of Spanish <laugh> or something like that. So this is somebody that is not proficient in Spanish but ended up having to take an ESL class just because we didn't have enough teachers. And I can imagine, right. That was probably also a tough call for our administrators. But unfortunately, when we don't have, we don't invest in bilingual teachers, when we don't invest in our bilingual programs, that is the result, right. We have students who are not being challenged in the classroom, like I felt I wasn't. But also, students who actually need a lot of support just to catch up with their classmates and are not receiving that, and therefore are staying behind. So we are really underserving our students by doing that, right. Our classroom should be an environment where you should be able to learn basic skills, but also to be pushed and challenged. And we are, at least in my experience in high school, at an ESL program, that was not the case. Sheehan: And do you remember the percentage of kids who graduated from your graduating class? Serrano: <laugh> No. I don't remember. That was a long time ago. Sheehan: Okay. Yeah. <laugh> So moving on then from high school going into college, you said you went to Cal State San Marcos, is that correct? Serrano: Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 6 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Yes. Yes, I decided that when I was looking at all the options, I guess I had, um, really, I didn't have that many options. I was happy and, you know, excited when I got all those accepting letters as a senior, especially, you know, I had you share, I had a tough journey. The reality was that my parents were still farm workers. The reality was my family was still struggling and I was going to get a lot of emotional support, but not financial support. So I was looking for a college that will help me financially. That will feel right for me. I was also looking for that, like home feel to it. And I also knew that I performed better in smaller classrooms. So for me, Cal State San Marcos definitely met all those things I was looking for. Also, I had, initially my sister originally, my older sister started at Cal State San Marcos. So when I chose that school, I also had the hope that we were both gonna be attending together. That ended up not happening. She ended up, unfortunately like many students, dropping out before I was able to join her. But the campus is still within the border region. It's still only a few minutes away from Tijuana and Chula Vista where I actually have a lot of family members. But at the same time, it was not close enough for me to feel like I was gonna go with my family. I still felt, you know, as a teenager, I was also looking to get away from family. So Cal State San Marcos provided that perfect in between. At least for me. And then also once again, being a smaller campus, a campus that had small class sizes. Also, we have a college assistant migrant program who once again, as a daughter of farm workers, provided a lot of support, especially my first year. So all of those were like incentives for me to pick Cal State San Marcos and decide to move back in 2008. Sheehan: Very interesting. So what did you do for financial support then? Was it just kind of grants and student loans and things like that? Serrano: Yep. <laugh> So it was grants. It was, um, like I mentioned through camp, I was able to access some scholarships. And then I was able to, or ended up having to, sign up for student loans. Yeah. Sheehan: Mm-hmm, <affirmative> very much the American experience right now. <laugh> So you’re one of three sisters. You had said your older sister had dropped out of college. Did your younger sister attend Cal State San Marcos or any other college? Serrano: So actually, yes, my older sister that dropping from Cal State San Marcos, just to later on, actually, she was part of the first class of Mira Costa students who graduated with a bachelor’s. She has a Bachelor’s of Science from Mira Costa College. And that was recent. And my younger sister, she is currently a student at UC Irvine. Sheehan: Wow. So you were the middle daughter and ended up with the first degree. Was that the first degree in your family? Serrano: Yes. Yes, that was the first degree in my family. And yes, I know. I ended up being the middle child as an example, I guess. <laugh>. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 7 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Sheehan: And what was your degree in? Serrano: Mine? Sheehan: Yes. Serrano: I ended up doing my bachelor's in human development with my emphasis in health services. Sheehan: And then that led into your current position, or how did you end up where you are now? Serrano: I ended up doing a double major, sorry. I should have--I did a double major in Human Development and Spanish. So I wanted to make sure that I didn't lose my proficiency in the language, but also, I had always really liked literature and, you know, Spanish is my first language, so I felt a lot more comfortable in that language. So I ended up studying both. When I first started at Cal State San Marcos, I knew I had to find my home. ’Cause my family was far, far away. Especially because when my parents decided to move the family and overstay their visas, they became undocumented. Right. So even though if they had, you know like their whole lives, they had been moving back and forward and, like I shared, my great grandparents, my grandparents, they were all now, actually at the time I think they were already U.S. citizens. By the time we moved. If not, they were very close to becoming U.S. citizens. My parents only had visas. So when they moved and overstayed, they became undocumented. So something that wasn't thinking of when I picked the college is that because we are in the border now, there was an imaginary line dividing me and my parents. The way that our immigration system defines the border is a hundred miles from the port of entry. So for those of us who live in San Diego County, especially those of us who live in North County, we're very familiar with the Border Patrol checkpoints set on the 15 freeway and on the 5, which, you know, are around the areas of Temecula and San Clemente. So my parents, when I first started college, my freshman year, they were still undocumented. So they couldn't risk, and I myself couldn't ask them to risk, their ability to be with my younger sister who at the time was I think, a first grader, by crossing that checkpoint. Because every time an undocumented immigrant drives through that checkpoint, there's a possibility of being arrested and deported. So I, I was not--I knew about the checkpoint, but I didn't understand all the complications that come with it until I had already submitted everything for Cal State San Marcos. I had my orientation day and then I had to have that tough conversation that my parents couldn't drop me off for orientation. They did end up dropping me off for my first day at the dorms. But after that, I was basically on my own. If I wanted to see my parents, I would have to either drive or take the train and me being me, the U.S. citizen crossing that checkpoint versus my parents who were undocumented. So, I forgot what I was saying. <laugh> Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 8 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Sheehan: <laugh> That's all right. Serrano: [unclear]. Sheehan: I have a, well, that leads me to my next question, actually. Coming from a multi-status family, did that impact your choice of career? Serrano: It did. It did. I think, indirectly, but it did. I went to high school once again, it kind of all goes back to high school years, right. ‘Cause for most of us, those are our formative years, right. The years where, even though we're making decisions unconsciously, that ends up impacting what we do. So when I was in high school, this was in 2006. I remember very vividly that Congress was having a conversation around undocumented immigrants and around, and how some politicians at the time were really pushing to criminalize undocumented immigrants. Currently being undocumented in the United States is a civil offense. It's not a criminal offense, but at the time there were a lot of pushing, a lot of conversations around criminalizing that, really making it a felony to be undocumented and or helping undocumented folks. So as a teenager that was literally struggling to learn English struggling, like kind of in a way I feel identified with the immigrant experience. I knew my parents were undocumented. Most of my friends were immigrants and a lot of them were undocumented. I felt these folks were speaking directly to my community, right. Directly to my family. Directly about my friends. And I knew that it wasn't true. Everything that they were saying was not true. That was not reflective of my experience and what I was seeing every day. So, 2006, there was a mass movement around immigrant rights. A push for an immigration reform and really to change that dialogue about how we were talking about undocumented immigrants. And as a high school student, I just jumped on board. I joined the protests. I ended up walking out of my high school. Like a lot of folks did back in 2006, we saw high school walkouts all throughout the state of California. I joined that movement, not knowing anything. I didn't know what the real implications of the conversations were. I didn't know how Congress works. I didn't know how we make laws. I just knew that what I was hearing and what I was watching on TV, like through the news was not right. So fast forward to when I started as a student at Cal State San Marcos. I had already had my first encounter with MEChA, which stands for Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan. And as a high school student, a lot of high schools do have MEChA. My high school didn’t. But when we started, you know, getting involved in organizing walkouts and protests, it was college students at the nearest community college who were involved with MEChA, who came out to make sure that police was not harassing us. To come out, to tell us like, Okay, this is what you do to stay safe during a protest. They were not instituting the protest ‘cause we were the ones really wanting to do everything, right. But they were there to make sure we were doing it in a safe way. So when I kind of started at Cal State San Marcos, find out we had a MEChA chapter, I knew since like orientation, I'm joining this organization ‘cause they're doing what I wanna be doing. So, it is actually through that, that I met one of my mentors, Arcela Nuñez[-Alvarez] who at the time was the director of the National Latino Research Center and the advisor for MEChA, um, that I actually started getting more involved here locally in North County. So a Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 9 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 lot my years as a student at Cal State San Marcos, I really spent getting to know North County and the local immigrant rights movement through MEChA. And also, you know, we also got into some trouble at Cal State San Marcos as we were the biggest organization, student organization that represent Latino and Latinx students. And you know, at the time we were look[ing at a] tuition increase. We still--and until this day--Cal State San Marcos still doesn't have a Chicano Studies department. But back then we had even less Chicano professors. So there was a lot of things that I was seeing in my daily life that it just didn't feel right. Didn't feel that that was something, or an environment in which folks like myself could thrive. And my goal was always to try to, you know, create a world where I wanna live in and create a world where I want other generations--future generations--to live in. So I got involved and I was, you know, I struggled a little bit because I was taking classes and then I was doing all this community work and I never saw the bridge. Right. I never saw like the connection for me. So like, no, this is what I do because that's just what feels right to me. And I'm going to class because one day I'm gonna have a career, but I still didn't know what, <laugh> like most college students. So as my college year start--you know, I started approaching the end of my college career, I started seeing that overlap. Right. And I found that overlap initially, actually ended up getting hired as a student assistant. And then later on, I came right after graduation, came in as staff at the National Latino Research Center and in there--which is a department at Cal State San Marcos--I learned a lot about research. But also, I learned how research can be used to really bring attention to issues like that I was seeing. So that's kind of where I started seeing like, Okay, there's an overlap. I can actually do something with this education that I'm getting to improve and continue to also use the skills that I learned as an organizer versus an activist. As an organizer in the community. And I can merge both. And I can merge them in a way in which I create the opportunities that I wanna see. Right. And I kind of was able to after graduation and after like a few years of experience working at the NLRC and now, you know, as Universidad Popular, that's what I'm doing. I'm still continuing to create the spaces and the opportunities that I really wish I had when I was in that position in my life. Right. So for young folks, but also for like our, um, just our immigrant communities in general. Especially in North County, which, once I moved here, I fell in love with this region and also came to find out that this region is severely underserved. If I struggled in Oxnard--like this community is severely underserved. So, I decided that [I’d] dedicate my professional career to build resources here in North County. And it was all, you know, it was all as I was trying to merge my worlds into one. <laugh> Sheehan: <laugh>. And so what resources can people use in North County that you've helped develop? Serrano: Yeah. So, through Universidad Popular we have developed classes, community classes where folks can actually start learning about the history of Latinos in the United States. It's all coming from a Chicano Studies lens. And for me like that, I also, it was in a Chicano Studies classes where I felt like empowered and I was able to feel that I could merge, right, like my knowledge and my experience with my education. So we definitely find that that's the perfect platform for, uh, to start that. So, we also have classes that help folks learn the history and civics of the United States to then be able to become citizens. So a lot of folks don't know, but undocumented folks, sorry, immigrants. Immigrants who are applying to become U.S. citizens have to pass a history and civics test before they're able to do that. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 10 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 So we help them study. We help them connect with attorneys or immigration attorneys that are able to, you know, assist them in the process of filling out their application. I myself sometimes serve as the interpreter. So I actually go with folks who are eligible to take their interviews in Spanish. I sit through there and I help them translate. And then, you know, we help them get through the finish line of becoming U.S. citizens. And after that, I help them register to vote. And then we also have some voter education classes and just activities in general, every time there's an election, in which we help first, new citizens register to vote, learning how to vote. Because voting is not as easy as it seems for those of us who are fluent in English and who are, um, grew up around our electoral system. And also, just learning about the candidates and, you know, the information or where to find information about the candidates. So you can make the right decisions for yourself and for your families. I also have helped develop an alert system specifically here in North County and that is part of what I've been doing now for many, many years on a volunteer basis. We developed an alert system that lets folks know when there is the presence of a checkpoint, a police--usually they're called DUI checkpoints--but the reality, we know that in the immigrant community, the perception is definitely that they are not there to catch folks who are driving under the influence, but really to catch folks who are driving without a license. Which is a lot of undocumented folks. And we haven't seen this in the last few years. But over 10 years ago, when this system started, we used to see a lot of collaboration with Border Patrol. So, I personally witnessed DUI checkpoints in which Border Patrol was standing right next to the officer or a block away. Right. So if you were somebody that was driving without a license and you look a certain way, you were Spanish speaker, you were for the most part presumed to be undocumented, and Border Patrol will be there to ask for your immigration status. And we also, unfortunately, documented some stories of folks that ended up being put in deportation procedures through this process. So we helped create an alert system in which when there's a DUI checkpoint in our community, when there's a Border Patrol checkpoint and, or an immigration raid, you know, in North County. And by North County, we really mean all the communities that touch the 78 and 76 corridors. So the cities of Oceanside and Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, and all of the unincorporated areas of Valley Center, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Pala, Fallbrook. Whenever there is one of those instances, we're able to send out a text message alert that goes to over 8,000 unique contacts. Plus, we're able to also to post information on our social media. All combined, we are able to reach anything between 50,000 to 100,000 community members, primarily Spanish speakers who live in North County. And a lot of them we know are immigrants. Sheehan: That's incredible. So there's this whole support system for immigrants in North County that you've created. Is that something that you've done in, what was the timeframe on that? Serrano: So when I first kind of joined a group, it was kind of baby. It was barely community members. A lot of them college students, a lot of them Cal State San Marcos students who were going to these checkpoints to start documenting what was happening. Right. And they will just, because they were already there, they will just start texting their family and friends who will then forward that text message to their families and friends. So it was like a tree. And this started back in 2009. I joined the group in 2010, so months after it was first created. And we knew that we needed to reach people faster and also in a more effective way. So, I was able to, as a student, just volunteer my time. And, you know, also as a young person that grew up with technology, trying to figure out how do we use technology to do that, to do exactly that. So at the time--and this is 2009--Facebook had only been Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 11 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 around for a few years, and it was barely kind of getting momentum. So we started using Facebook as an organizing tool. We were probably one of the first groups that started using Facebook. You know, later we also used Instagram as an organizing platform to do that. And then also we knew that a lot of community members that we were targeting, like the folks that needed to get this information, were not gonna be able to jump on a Facebook page because at the time they probably didn't have the technology or didn't know how to use it. So we knew that we needed to do something with direct text message. We didn't have resources. This is all volunteer work. We didn't have grants. We didn't have the ability to get donations really. Like, I mean, we were getting donations, but we're not a 501c3, right. There's no real exchange that could happen. So somebody literally just said, “I have an old Blackberry that you can have if you want it”. And then somebody was kind enough to say, “And I can add a new line to my family plan”. And then the rest of us just had to say, well, we will pitch in to pay the monthly payment. So we all started literally with an really old Blackberry, um, <laugh> that we will type the text message and send out and start kind of creating a list. Once we hit the 500 numbers, like, you know, 500 unique phone numbers that we were now texting every weekend, sometimes multiple times in the weekend, it became really hard because a Blackberry is not designed <laugh> to send more than 500 text message at the same time. It will take us three hours. Literally, one of us will be in the phone for three hours sending text message. And then we decided, okay, that's three hours is ridiculous. We can't be volunteering more than that. So we kind of stop adding new numbers, but the demand, right. Amount of people that every time we send a text message, they will text back, “Hey, can you add my cousin? Hey, can you add my neighbor?” Or we will be out -because we were putting this out of pocket and I was a student, a first-generation college student that was signing up for, or getting student loans just to pay rent. I couldn't afford really an extra bill. And, you know, that was a reality for most of the folks that were doing this. Not all of us were college students, but, you know, we're all struggling. We started asking our Facebook friends on our page, “Hey, would you all be willing to pitch in to pay the bill?” Right. And yes, that response from the community immediately was yes. “Where can I meet you to get you five bucks, ten bucks, twenty?” So then we started attending community events to collect a donation, but of course, as we are at the community events, people are like, “Oh, you're with Alianza Comunitaria. Can I be added to your list?” And we had to say, no, we couldn't. So we figured out that we needed an online system, and we did everything car washes, literally hanging out at the swap meet, just collecting donations, asking folks who were receiving our text message, who will send them a text, right. Like, “Hey, can you help us? Anything will help.” And we were able to in 2013 transition to an online system that we have continued to have now for a few years. It continued to be all community funded. Now, as you know, some of us found more stability. We were paid out of pocket to continue this system. And we were able to bring in more and more numbers. So our numbers continue to grow. Every time I look at our list, it's bigger. The last time I looked, it was a little over 8,000, but I don't really know our exact number because people just sign up automatically on it. And our Facebook and Instagram, like I said, we get followers every weekend. Every time there is an alert that needs to go out, we get them and here and there, we will hear from community members who tell us, “I've been following for 10 years”. And the amount of trust they have on this network is to the point where we still, we get a lot of messages primarily through our social media, where folks now are sharing with us a lot of very personal information with the hope that we are gonna be able to connect them with resources. Right. So many times, I am the one connecting folks with organizations who are able to provide legal services and/or directing them in the right way to where they can find information about medical or health services. There's a lot of questions around schools for their kids. So it becomes--even though we try not to Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 12 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 promote it, ‘cause it's still volunteer run, so it's capacity. It's an issue. We are part of the North County community, specifically the immigrant community. So they look at us for all sorts of information. So right now, during COVID we had folks who were looking at us for resources. What can we do to help feed our families or to access the vaccine? Like a lot of folks are, um, we had questions around, Will this affect my immigration status? Or I’m undocumented. Can I access these resources? So we continue to do that work. And of course, our notification system continues to be up and running and just growing, even though we are trying not to grow it as much. Sheehan: That's really, really incredible. You said you've seen these DUI checkpoints where really Border Patrol is kind of hanging out there trying to catch undocumented persons. Have you experienced any other issues that immigrants face in, you know, the border region? Serrano: Yeah. I mean and, you know, just to clarify, that was many years back. Like close to 10 years back. And the reason I make that clarification is because things have changed. Policies and laws really for the state of California has changed that make that illegal to an extent <laugh>. So, I just wanna clarify that because I don't want the departments coming after me, like, you're saying we're violating the law. That's not true. Yes. But you did at one point. <laugh> Yes. I mean, there is a lot of challenges. Like I said, at this point I've been working with the immigrant community in North County for over 10 years. And there are challenges at all levels, from parents trying to navigate the schools. To folks not being able to access healthcare. We know that, unfortunately, undocumented folks, even if they qualify because of income and you know, the other requirements for medical, they're not able to access it just because of their immigration status. So I had to, even with my own family, have to navigate the system, or try to navigate the system because there's really no navigation when you're being denied services, because you don't have health insurance. And you're not able to access health insurance because you cannot afford private. And the ones that are subsidized by the government, you don't qualify because of your immigration status. So for me personally, that has been an important fight to ensure that our safety net is open, right. For the state of California our safety net is open for all of us, regardless of immigration status. We have been able to have some win. So as my work out in the community through Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular, I became an advocate for immigrant rights. So right now, we are in April 6th, 2022. And we're very excited because starting May 1st, so in a few couple of weeks, undocumented immigrants 50 years and older will be able to access full scope Medi-Cal if they qualify based on income regardless of their immigration status. So that is a huge win that took us many years. Literally, I had trips to these, sorry, to Sacramento. I have taken the 12-hour bus--and I know how long it takes--12-hour bus to Sacramento with undocumented folks. With folks who are cancer survivors. With folks who are dealing with diabetes and all kinds of chronic disease from North County. Here from our local community who have been living here 20, 30 years. Who have U.S. citizen kids, right. Who are doing everything on their end to be good members of our community. Who are blocked from receiving health services because of their immigration status. So I had the privilege of getting to know them, learning their story, helping them prepare and really become advocates for their own, uh, for themselves and their families. And now, you know, a few years later we are seeing some results from that advocacy. As we are changing the laws and really changing the way undocumented immigrants are perceived in our community. Of course, that has been statewide efforts, right. Like we are part of some statewide coalitions that have been able to bring us those results. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 13 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 But I can tell you that North County, San Diego has been part of all those conversations throughout the years in part, because of the work that me and other folks have been doing. Sheehan: And so what are some of the methods that you use to advocate? I know you, before you had mentioned when you were in high school and college, you had organized and been a part of protests. Is that the major way that you help advocate or -Serrano: No, that's probably the most visible one for the outside world. And definitely we continue to use public protests as a way of getting attention to the issues. But there's many other ways. We ensure that my role has become being the teacher, right. Like the person that is helping community members learn how to tell their stories, because even though we know the experiences exist in the community, right. Like, I witness them sometimes, you know, like folks call me, like, I can't, I need a test or even in my own family, right. My mother-in-law was in a situation a long time ago where she wasn't feeling right, and she needed to get tested. And we couldn't get an appointment. I, myself, I couldn't sign her up anywhere because she didn't have health insurance because she was undocumented. So I'm seeing this, I'm living through it, but I know that it's hard for our community members to tell that story in a way that other folks are able to understand it and follow along. So I literally had taken the time to first teach folks how the laws are changed, right. Then we also take the time to see which laws need to be changed. Partner with those who have a lot more experience than myself in policy making and, you know, try to come together to create bills that we think might be able to solve the problem. And then have community members learn how to do the advocacy in the legislative process. Which means teaching them how to tell their own personal stories, accompany them to provide that testimony. What there is in a private meeting with legislators at their offices or public hearings. Like anything from public meetings, sorry, public hearings in Sacramento with our state legislators to city councils, right. A lot of times there is things city councils can be doing to improve the lives of folks, but most of us don't know about it or don't know how to communicate with them. I also have helped folks set up meetings or help folks set up meetings. And, at times, especially when some of these meetings are public, media has an interest. So lately that has been one of the skills I've been developing on how do we better work with media to ensure that the stories of our community members are out there and folks who might not be in our communities are aware of. Because deep in my heart, I know that people, there's a lot of people that cares who just don't know, they just don't know what's happening. So part of the advocacy is really to ensure that everybody knows what's happening and how things can be fixed in a way that it will not take away from U.S. citizens. Because that's not the point. The point is not to take anything away from a U.S. citizen. The point is to ensure that all of us who contribute to our community get access to the same resources. And that is the part of the work that I have been doing in terms of advocacy. And sometimes we don't achieve that in a public protest, but sometimes you do, <laugh> right. So use the different tools in our toolkit for advocates. Sheehan: And so that, is it a bill or a law that's going into effect in May? That's a big win for the immigrant rights group. Is there any other progress that kind of stands out to you in the past 20 years? Serrano: Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 14 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Definitely. For me, the one that I was also very passionate and really sparked my interest in learning how advocacy works at the state level is the passage of SB 54 or the California Values Act back in 2000 and 2017. <laugh> Yes, it went into effect in January of 2018. So the SB 54, the California Values Act is also known at the national level as the California Sanctuary Law, which really prohibits law enforcement from collaborating with immigration enforcement. That's the law that I was hinting earlier <laugh> about me making sure that I clarify that those incidents happened before 2018. Because in the state of California-and we were the first state in the nation--and actually now a few years later, some states have been following our lead in ensuring that law enforcement, your local police department are not in the business of deporting community members. When we first started talking about--going back to my experience here in North County, right. I was involved in the community. I knew about this DUI checkpoints. They were becoming a ridiculous thing where we documented checkpoints on a Tuesday at 10:00 AM in front of a high school in Escondido. What drunk driver is driving at 10:00 AM in front of a high school on a Tuesday? And I mean, I know there might be folks driving under the influence at the time, but they’re definitely folks who need help. Because we were seeing the DUI checkpoints and not outside of bars, right. They're not there--once again, it was obvious to us that they were not targeting drunk drivers. They were targeting undocumented immigrants. And they were targeting because they were able to impound the car because at the time undocumented immigrants couldn't get a license. And once again, we were seeing immigration enforcement presence. So we were able to first tackle the license. So the state of California became the first, uh, one of the first states to give undocumented driver's licenses. But for us here in North County, we knew that the problem was really the collaboration, the close collaboration between immigration enforcement and law enforcement. A lot of folks don't know this, but the Escondido Police Department was one of the first ones to launch a pilot where ICE agents, or immigration enforcement agents, were literally riding along with the police department. They had an office within our department headquarters. They were one in the same, basically. That later translated in laws in the states of Arizona and other places. So we knew that North County had something to do with the birth of that collaboration. So we needed to be part of the disentanglement of that collaboration. We worked with legislators for many years, and finally in 2018 in the state of California, now it's illegal for police departments to fully collaborate with immigration enforcement. Unfortunately, there's still some exceptions to the law, so there continues to be collaboration. We continue to fight every single one of the forms of collaboration. But for the most part, the state of California is able to say that our law enforcement doesn't collaborate with immigration enforcement. And that has been part of the result of the advocacy that happened statewide. But I can say that Escondido specifically was constantly brought up in those conversations because we were one of the first departments to start that collaboration. So then we were definitely one of the first to stop after the state law was passed. Sheehan: And so do other border states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, do they have similar laws to what California is or do they even consider having those laws? Serrano: I think in the state of Arizona and Texas actually had been having the opposite fight. The state of Arizona was one of the first, I think it was the first to launch it statewide, to not just allow the collaboration, but it was almost like demand law enforcement to collaborate with immigration enforcement and demand law enforcement to become one in the same with immigration. So, yes, Arizona, sorry, California is right Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 15 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 now the only one that has that state law, at least for the bordering states. I think the other one that will be kind of like a good example of the work on the opposite will be New York. And definitely some of the smaller states are. Their laws are not as strong as ours, but they are definitely on the way there to hopefully disentangle that. Sheehan: So that kind of brings me to the end of my questions here. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything you'd like to share? Serrano: Um, let me think. <laugh> I know I talked to you about many, many different things, but I think for me, something that resonates a lot the work that we've been doing is recently the whole San Diego County went through the redistricting process. For those who don't know, redistricting happens every 10 years after a census count. Now, when I arrived to this region, it was right before the last census in 2010. I arrived to North County in 2008. And I knew that there was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Spanish speakers, right. I felt right at home. But the 2010 census was severely undercounted Latinos. Now in 2020 census, I was able join the efforts to ensure that folks were counted. And even though we continue to see a severe undercount for our communities, now as we have the count and we get to redistrict our community, we get to say that the North County district, which right now will be District 5 for the County Board of Supervisors, is at least 45% Latino. So that to me just goes to show the amount of growth that our Latino community, immigrant communities, have had in North County. And, it was recent, but we are starting to see a trend on the change of policy makers. So we are seeing a lot of Latinos, a lot of immigrants and/or the children of immigrants being elected to school boards, being elected to city councils. You know, crossing fingers. So we will see them at the Board of Supervisors, and we will see them at the state and federal level representing North County. And I think for me, as somebody that has done a lot of work in this region in the last 10 years, it just goes to show the power our community has when we organize ourselves and we imagine what can be done. It wasn't there before. Because I remember 2008 when I arrived, this was a very conservative community, and it continues to be conservative, but it was, uh, I remember it was at Cal State San Marcos, the first time a peer, somebody my age called me beaner and told me to go back to Mexico. So that is the reality for a lot of families in North County. The racism that was just open and accepted, right. The practice by our policy makers and even by our neighbors of denigrating you because you're Mexican. Telling you to speak English because this is the United States or telling us to go back to Mexico. Even for folks who are not even originally from Mexico, right. Our Central American community members were being told to go back to Mexico. Fast forward to 10 years now, even though I recognize that we continue to be a very conservative community, North County is changing. And it's changing because the number of Latinos is increasing, and we are now creating a Latino leadership in a region. And I don't know if our administrators at Cal State San Marcos know, but in part is because of the presence of Cal State San Marcos. Because nowadays as an alum, as a Latina, as a Spanish speaker, I run into so many folks who have attended San Marcos, who are from this community and who are creating change. And we expect that that will continue to create an impact in our region. Sheehan: Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 16 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 And so in the 2010 census, there were more immigrants here than the census showed. And then in 2020, that number had grown. What do you think keeps people from wanting to participate in that census? Is it a fear of deportation? Serrano: Yeah, definitely. When you're undocumented you want nothing to do with the government. Government is your enemy. And in part that has been because of our doing, as the United States. We have used every-- you know, it's almost like when we talk about immigration, it comes in waves, right. And every time that there is this like conservative tough on immigrant approach, we create fear, and we create cases in which folks get deported from our communities. Obama, the Obama administration has the record on deportations in all of the country. So when a Democrat president is deporting your family, and now you have another new administration, even if it's Democrat, Republican. As an immigrant, you fear them. They're your enemy. Regardless of who they are like, they're your enemy because they are the ones responsible for separating your family and/or separating a family that you know. So when you are undocumented, the government is your enemy and any interaction you avoid. And that's what we saw with the census, right. Even though the census should have absolutely nothing to do with immigration enforcement, folks are afraid of it because they don't know how it could be used against them. Also, unfortunately in 2020, the president that we had at the time, President Trump decided to make it a political move and decided and pushed really hard to include immigration questions on the census, which include a citizenship question. He really fought really hard to include those questions. Even though a court decided not to side with him, and they ended up siding with creating a census that will be more inviting for folks to participate versus creating questions that will prevent folks from feeling as safe participating. And those questions didn't make it to the questionnaire. The president coming on TV already saying that he wanted to use that as part of his immigration enforcement, nobody could take that away from us. So it was fresh on people's memories and I myself, right. Like me and my team, we were out there doing outreach for the census, and we will always get questions. “And how is Trump gonna use this against me?”, right. “How is this gonna be part of the deportation process?” And I can tell them a hundred times that that was not the case, but once again, they had already seen the president be on TV saying that it would be used against them. So those were some of the challenges that we saw with the census. Sheehan: And so that 45% Latino/Latina is probably on the very low side. Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: So that's an incredible growth in North County. Serrano: Yes. Yes, cities like Escondido are now majority Latino with 52%. Cities like Vista and San Marcos are also very close to the 50% mark. Once again, if we were to account for the under count, it's probably safe to say that they're about half Latino population cities. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 17 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Sheehan: <laugh>. That is an incredible rate. Serrano: Yeah, it is. Sheehan: All right. And did you have anything else that you would like to share? Serrano: No, I think that's all for me. Sheehan: All right. Well, thank you very much for your time today. Serrano: Yeah, no. Thank you for having me. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 18 2022-11-12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Serrano, Lilian. Interview transcript. April 6, 2022. Description An account of the resource Lilian Serrano is a California State San Marcos alum. She graduated with a degree in Human Development. Lilian worked with the National Latino Research Center (NLRC) at Cal State San Marcos before moving on to work with Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular. In this interview, Lilian discusses family life and growing up in Tijuana and Oxnard, her experiences as a student activist at CSUSM, and her work as an advocate for immigrant rights in North County. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lilian Serrano Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Kevin Vigil Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-06 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Community organization Undocumented immigrants -- San Diego County (Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oxnard (Calif.) San Diego County (Calif.) Tijuana (Baja California, Mexico) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lilian Serrano License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <p class="p2"><a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> <b></b></p> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-16 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-11-23 Activists and activism Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f91f84e4831ca55340c80edba7503653.pdf bcf9238ee0a2132eaf9eae864a9bed04 PDF Text Text TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Julia Friedman: Today is Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, at 9:58 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Tanis Brown for the University Library Special Collections Oral History project. Tanis, thank you for being here with me today. Tanis Brown: Oh, thank you. Hang on just a minute. I have to—all right. Friedman: Perfect. I would like to start by discussing your early days in the city of San Marcos, California. Why did you first move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, I first came to San Marcos in 1976 in the kind of summertime. We moved to San Marcos from Escondido. Friedman: And why did you move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, my husband and I had kind of outgrown our house in Escondido and we were looking—he was looking for a little more yard space so he could start to garden. And so, we were looking for a little bit larger house with a little more backyard. Friedman: And what were your first impressions of the city? Brown: Well, when we were looking at houses, I can remember my husband telling the realtor, “I'm not sure we want to live in San Marcos. It's kind of the boonies, isn't it?” And, at that time, San Marcos was certainly not the city it is today. It was a lot more rural. Many, many mobile home parks, about twelve if I remember correctly. Only four to five elementary schools and we had two children in school, so we were looking for, you know, a close-by school and again. So, taking some choices about, well, do we want a little bit bigger yard or do we want to stay in a more developed city, like Escondido? And I'm certainly glad that we opted to move to San Marcos. Friedman: That's great. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: How did you first become involved in the community of San Marcos during your first years in the city? Brown: Okay, so, right after we moved to San Marcos, I enrolled in an early childhood development course at Palomar college. I had been teaching preschool for a number of years and the first night of class, the teacher said the city of San Marcos is looking for a preschool teacher for their Raggedy Anne and Andy Program, which was very popular. It was expanding at that time. And so, I went the next day and put in an application and ended up getting a job with the city right away within the first couple of months. And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that worked for the city. Our location was where San Marcos City Hall is now, but the building was the red barn that is now located at Walnut Grove Park, that was where all the city recreation programs were hosted out of. That was the main office for our park and recreation program. So, I started working for the Raggedy Anne and Andy Program and was able to meet a lot of people that worked for the city at that time. And that was kind of our first introduction. And because we were such a small community, a couple of the city council people had their children enrolled in our ragged Anne and Andy program. So immediately, I met two or three city council people and through their children. So that's kind of our quick introduction. And I remember thinking, “Oh my gosh, I grew up in San Diego. I never ever knew anybody who's elected to anything.” Transcribed by Julia Friedman 1 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 And here we are, serving, the city council members’ children. So, it was a very close connection to the local government. Friedman: Have you remained within those organizations? Brown: Yes. So, in addition, I only were worked for the city for about a little bit over a year because, we lived overseas shortly after that, but when I came back, I had already been familiar with the park and recreation program. So, I applied to be a commissioner for the park and recreation program, which is an advisory commission for the city of San Marcos, overseeing the parks and recreation. And I was appointed to that and it was a perfect timing because the city was growing quite a bit and we were developing new parks. So, we went from three parks to eight parks to twelve parks, and I ended up sitting on that commission for over twenty years. So, it was really a great time to watch the city not only develop, but also plan for open space, parks, trails, that kept up with the development of additional housing. Friedman: That's wonderful. Oh my goodness. So, you really saw the city expand in just your first few years in San Marcos. And then shortly after, you enrolled in Cal State San Marcos [California State University San Marcos]. You were among the first class to enroll in 1989. Why did you decide to attend the university? Brown: (laughs) Well, my other--one of the other hats that I have worn for many years is the San Marcos Historical Society. And through that organization, I got to be involved with the Chamber of Commerce. We had a reciprocal agreement and I was attending a lot of Chamber events, and I was lucky enough to meet Richard Rush, who was the Dean of the North San Diego campus at that time. And he kept talking about, you know, they were going to have, well at one point, it was going to be a San Diego State satellite campus up in North County. And, you know, just a lot about that. So, I got to know him fairly well. And then, in 1989, when San Marcos was going to be the host city for the university, I thought, “Well, I better get in on the ground floor of this.” So, I applied to go take all my many, many undergraduate units and apply them towards a degree. All my kids were now in school. Perfect timing. So, I applied to go to be in the first graduating class of Cal State San Marcos. So, it was wonderful. And I can remember in my first--one of my first classes on the first day, Dick Rush came in and waved, sat and waved out the window. So it was, it was like, “Oh, this is great, this feels like home.” So, it was--it was very comfortable. Friedman: Oh, that's wonderful. Because I understand that the original campus was a storefront property while the permanent one was being built across town. Can you discuss what it was like attending CSUSM [California State University San Marcos] during those early days as a university? Brown: Yes, we called it Cal State Jerome’s [CSUSM was located near to a Jerome’s furniture store] and we were in industrial park and, there were very few classes. I remember we didn't have a full compliment of majors like we do now. And the first several years of campus life were only upper-class juniors and seniors, as well as teaching programs. So, we had only upper division classes and every semester there were only so many classes for each department. So pretty much everybody who was in one class was in all your classes together, depending on what your major was. So, we really got to know one another and there was a lot of camaraderie between the faculty, the students, the staff, because we were all about the same age. The average age of students in the first few years of Cal State San Marcos was thirty-nine years old. So, you can imagine that, we--some of us were older than our faculty Transcribed by Julia Friedman 2 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 members, our professors, and certainly had a lot of a local experience. But most people, it was most certainly a commuter campus. There wasn't much campus life. Friedman: What did you major in? Brown: Well, I was an English major with a minor in women's studies. Friedman: That's great. And how many students were enrolled in your cohort, or in your class? Brown: I think our first graduating class was between ninety and ninety-five, something like that. So, we all fit in Craven Circle, in three rows of chairs, just about. Friedman: I was actually expecting it to be a little smaller, but that's actually really interesting. Could you elaborate a little more on the comradery amongst your classmates? Kind of like, what was the culture like in general within your cohort? Brown: Well, like I say, most students were, you know, adults who have lots of other stuff going on. Most people were working, or parents, or involved in community activities or especially jobs. We were all [reentering]--most of us were reentry students. And so, in addition to taking classes, we had other things going on in our lives. So, it was a little bit challenging. I know when we started to try to talk about having student groups and all that. But once again, we--there was a deli in the industrial park called the Full Belly Deli. A lot of people would go there for lunch if they were able to be on campus for a whole day. Usually people came and went. It was very kind of a drive-by campus if you will, you know. People were there because there were not gathering places. So, we did try. We had powwows. Bonnie Biggs, who was the dean of the library at that time, brought in a lot of musical performances and it was really enriching and exposed us to a lot of, you know, great music. And like I say, we were involved with the Native American tribal community in the North County and so we hosted a powwow. So those were things that were also included as part of our school requirements to, you know, get involved in these international things that were going on campus. Friedman: That's great. And from what I understand, there were already some student organizations established on campus, such as ASI--? Brown: Well, no, the first year, Dr. Ernie Zomalt who's the Executive Vice President and Sandy Punch, who was doing student affairs, really helped form the first group for an election for the first Associated Students. And I had just had a conversation with Charles Ragland who is one of the former ASI presidents back in the early years. And, the first couple of years we did have the Associated Students, but it wasn't an incorporation, it was just a campus organization. We did vote and we did actually vote for some student fees. But yeah, so we did have an election and I was on the first Associated Students group and we did a lot of the heavy lifting of bylaw writing and that kind of thing, as well as trying to establish some kind of connection between students and trying to encourage them to think about imposing fees that would not necessarily impact them at all, but would impact the future of the university. Friedman: Thank you for clearing that up. Brown: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 3 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: That's really interesting. And then as I understand it, you later became an employee a few years after graduating at CSUSM. Can you explain those roles that that you worked at CSUSM? Brown: Sure. So, after I graduated, I went to work for a social service agency in Vista Lifeline Community Services. And I was a grant writer there for about a year and a half. In the meantime, the campus had grown and were about to launch a (laughs) full four-year student body. And so, all of a sudden housing was needed. And because of my relationship with, you know, kind of the community, I had a lot of access to, you know, where to rent an apartment or this and that. I knew a lot of community members, my, you know, just community contacts. And so, I applied for a job with the university to be a Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President's office. So, I went back and worked part-time, doing special projects. And then that job got extended to fifty percent of also housing and trying to not only help faculty members find housing, but also to help students find housing. And then actually starting the first housing program at Cal State San Marcos. So that was that became a bigger and bigger job (laughs) because we didn't have a facility. So, we had to go out and find housing. We had to find suitable housing for a group of students so that we could, you know, kind of cluster them together and create opportunities that would be quasi student life. And it was, it was a very interesting endeavor. (laughs) Friedman: It's important though. From what I understand, you also were involved in HR for many years and in the Retirees Association. Could you explain a little bit about your roles in those departments as well? Brown: Sure. So, I moved over to Human Resources as the Training Coordinator and my job was to provide training opportunities for staff and also develop a new employee orientation. So, I had the really fun job in Human Resources. I was kind of known as the “cheerleader” because in addition to training opportunities, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was at the end of every year, we would do an employee recognition. This was before they had employee the month or anything like that. So once a year we would have an event that would recognize employees for their years of service. And just to, you know, just to thank employees for being on campus. In the early years, people moved around a lot just because of the growing campus. And so, there was a lot of expectation that don't get too used to the office that you're sitting in because six months now you may be moving to another office down the hallway. So, it was just a way to recognize, and I think the, you know, all the managers and leadership at the university really recognized how so many of the employees got called on to do things that they never expected to do when they were hired, just because we were a new campus and something new would come up and we just have to do it. And, we were very limited in staff. We didn't have three or four people in an office, but it was great. People enjoyed one another. And I have wonderful friends that I made at Cal State San Marcos, and it's carried over to the Retirees Association as well. So, and the other thing I loved about my job with orientation is that I got to meet everybody that was a new employee at the campus. So, I was kind of the face of HR, I believe, for many years, in terms of, you know, within their first couple of weeks of work, they were going to spend a day with me and I was going to kind of show the ropes of Cal State San Marcos. Later on, a lot of my job required a lot of compliance training as well, sexual harassment, and a lot of things like that in addition to the kind of enrichment training. Friedman: Well, thank you. So much of what you did as a student and as an employee at CSUSM seemed to involve community on campus. How did you see the CSUSM community develop over time? Brown: Are you talking about the campus community? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 4 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Brown: Okay. Well, I visited campus yesterday and we walked through the dome and in the olden days, the dome was the only really gathering place on campus. So, if you worked in Craven Hall you had to walk through the dome from the parking lot and so you pass through it, it was the place that you could eat your lunch. And usually you'd always see somebody you knew in the dome. So, there were those opportunities to make friends. And some of the employees at actually were also taking classes while they were working at Cal State San Marcos. So, it was an opportunity for just meeting and getting to know one another. But, you know, I still get that same feel just when I've been on campus other times that, people are anxious to help, they are anxious to reach out. And even the President was pretty accessible when I was there. You know, Dr. Haynes was primarily the longest serving President when I was at Cal State San Marcos and she'd be out and about on campus. And, it was, it was really great to see, you know, to know that the President was walking around, seeing what was going on as well. So, and I still get that feeling that there's a lot of opportunity for meeting and greeting it at the university. Friedman: That's wonderful. I would like to jump ahead now, or I suppose, change topics. You had mentioned that when you were a student at Cal State San Marcos, you were already involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. When did you first become involved in the organization? Brown: Well, as I mentioned early on, we moved to San Marcos and within the first eighteen months, my husband had an opportunity to go overseas and teach at a military facility. So, we moved to Germany. We rented out our house and bundled up our family and moved to Germany for two years. And while I was there, I was not working. And so, I just fell in love with history. And there, you know, Europe is a little bit older than Southern California (laughs), and I just really latched onto history. And within about a month of us coming back and getting resettled into our house, I was walking in the neighborhood and realized that we had a historical house at the top of a hill, not far from where I live and it was being vandalized. So, I contacted the city and I said, “Somebody needs to do something about this, because we don't have very many historical houses in San Marcos.” What's, you know, who owns it and trying to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, the city manager at the time recommended that I contact the Historical Society and they could tell me a little bit more the house, but in the meantime, they were going to check it out and they did follow up and say, “Oh, the house has just been purchased and they are planning to renovate it.” So, that was a good opportunity for something good to happen. But I did visit the Historical Society shortly after that and was privileged to meet several families of, you know, descendants of the pioneer families that lived here in San Marcos. So, I don't know all the old timers but kind of the second generation of old timers. And I just was amazed at the, you know, what a small town San Marcos had, but what a rich history it had, which I'm still marveling at that every day. So, yes. So, they kind of adopted me. I was quite a bit younger than anybody who was serving at the Historical Society at that time and just had an opportunity to meet some wonderful people who could tell me great stories about the history of San Marcos. And so, I got involved there and just continued to stay involved for a number of years, and then took a hiatus when I went back to school. And so then jump forward twenty years after I retired and my husband and I traveled for a few years and then came back and the Historical Society was going to be relocating their museum. And that's the time I kind of stepped up and said, “Sure, I can help.” And, so that was in 2009 and I'm still there. (Brown and Friedman laugh) Friedman: Is that when you became President or were you [unintelligible]? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 5 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Brown: Yeah, I have been the President for a very long time. But yes, but we have a really wonderful group of not so many of the pioneer families are left here in San Marcos. But we do have a steadfast group of volunteers that help out. We established a hands-on history program and we've had a lot of Cal State San Marcos students. Want to find out about that. That are going into the teaching program. And we've also had a few internships and I've been able to connect with the, uh, we are a community partner through the community service learning program at Cal State San Marcos. Friedman: What has been your goal as present of the historical society? Brown: Oh my gosh. Well, moving forward, thinking about where we need to be in the future is first and foremost, we have two historical houses that will always need a lot of tender love and care and upkeep because they were built at the end of the nineteenth century, so they're quite old. So establishing an endowment fund for the houses to keep them and other historical houses in perpetuity or as long as they can stand. We also have--my immediate project is a fire engine that I'm trying to get fixed up so we can add it to our hands-on history program. And then, of course, the wonderful thing that we have is the documentation of our history and our archives. And I am blessed to be able to work with Sean [Visintainer] and Jennifer Ho on establishing a really good archival program for our records in the hope that they would be worthy of someone's collection at some point if anything should happen to the Historical Society. So, just kind of laying the foundation for the future, kind of the “what ifs” and “what would happen if” and “how might we continue to preserve these things.” Friedman: That's wonderful. That's very smart. You always need to be thinking forward for your archive collection. Going to your archive, do you have any gems in the archive that you would like to talk about or share? Brown: We have a couple things that are pretty special. So, in the early years of first establishing San Marcos, there were three distinct communities. There was the Twin Oaks area out on the Northeastern side of San Marcos. There was the area known as Richland, which is kind of the center of town and where Cal State San Marcos is. And then on the West end, there was a community known as Barham township. And Barham township today is kind of right on the border of San Marcos and Encinitas. And there was a gentleman named William Webster Borden, and William Webster Borden was the postmaster. He wrote the first newspaper that we have documented called The Plain Truth. And it was postmarked from Barham, California. Anyway, his great-great-grandson delivered to us William Webster Borden’s type desk, which is a tall chest that contains all the little letters to make a newspaper, the individual letters. And so, we are pleased to have William Webster Borden’s type desk. Another thing that we have inherited from that area, there used to be Meadowlark Ranch that was off Rancho Santa Fe Road. And we have the corral gate from Meadowlark Ranch that was taken down in the 1950s. And it is barely standing, but we have figured it up on our backyard so people can have a chance to see that. And then we have an old schoolhouse bell from the 1910 schoolhouse. And that was given to us by William Carroll, who was quite a character. He ran the Outlook Newspaper. He bought the 1910 schoolhouse in the [19]60s and restored it as his newspaper office. He relocated it on Grand Avenue and it's still standing. But he left town in the nineties and moved to New Mexico and then Arcata, California. And once he got settled up there, he contacted us and said, “I'm going to give you the bell, but you have to come and get it.” So, it's a pretty far drive up there. And the thing weighs over two hundred and fifty pounds. So luckily, we were able to find someone who was making the trip down that would deliver it to us. So, we have the original bell from the 1910 schoolhouse in our museum. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 6 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: That's wonderful. Brown: Yeah. One last thing is our museum and building itself is pretty special in that it was built in 1939 by a grant for three thousand two hundred dollars, but it was built by the WPA, which is the Works Progress Administration under Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. And so that was kind of the tail end of the WPA projects. And so, we provided the money for the supplies, but the government would actually supply the workers and pay the workers to complete the work. So, our museum today is one of those projects from the WPA back in 1939. Friedman: That's a great story. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: Wow. You mentioned how are a volunteer-run organization. How do you think the community of your organization and San Marcos in general have contributed to the preservation of the history of San Marcos? Brown: Hmm. Well. I guess one of the things that I'm thinking about in addition to the legacy that we leave is that the pandemic has helped me understand that sometimes you can't wait for people to come to you because we were closed so much of the time during the pandemic that a lot of our programs, a lot of our volunteers, you know, we didn't have them anymore. So, recently, I was on a trip up in Washington state and walking along some of the trails up there are these beautiful displays that show a picture of--you're looking at a building across the lake, but you're seeing a photo of what it was like in 1920 or something like that. And it’s called--the little caption underneath is called Trail Tales. And so, it occurred to me that we really do need to take history out to the public. And, not just on special occasions, when I go out to do a presentation or somebody calls the Historical Society. But just for anybody who's maybe going out for a walk. So, that is one of the things that I'd like to see us do as a city and just community activity is to identify some of these areas that have changed so much over the years and have a then-and-now photo, or a description of what they're looking at, what it used to look like back in the 1920s or in 1890s. So that we just don't get used to thinking that this is the way it's always been, and this is the way it'll always be that there was something before that--what you're seeing today. Friedman: How would you like to, I guess, bring awareness to kind of that issue? Brown: Well, I guess one of the things that we have to do is as, you know, try to work with maybe developers of new projects and have them incorporate some of these Trail Tales or historical icons, so that you can, actually, from the ground level, add that to the aesthetic of whatever's being built today. I mean, maybe we could start at Cal State University and have a photo of the Prohoroff Poultry Farm, (laughs) I don't know, but, there are endless possibilities here in San Marcos. And I was just thinking-there's a new Costco along San Marcos Boulevard and that--where those buildings were airports here in San Marcos, which I'm sure not too many people know about that we had two airports here in San Marcos. So, Julia, you pose a good question. It always requires a little leg work talking just to the right people and getting people excited about things. Friedman: I would like to see that happen someday. I—(laughs) Brown: Maybe we can work together. (laughs) Transcribed by Julia Friedman 7 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: Ooh, I like that. I guess see that as a project, as an exhibit. I could see that as many things. I'm excited. I hope to see that someday. (laughs) Brown: I would love that. Friedman: How have you seen your organization grow over the years? Brown: The Historical Society? Friedman: Yeah. Brown: Historical societies, or at least ours, has not grown. It has dwindled. I think a lot of—and hopefully that is not the--or it's changed, I guess. I think there are less and less, not opportunities, but there are less and less people that get actively involved in volunteerism as much as I remember growing up. Or at least back in the [19]80s, because most people would retire, you know, between fifty-eight, sixty-five [years old], and then they would dedicate a few years to a civic organization. In talking with other historical societies in North County, groups like Kiwanis [Kiwanis International] and Rotary [San Diego Rotary], I've noticed a kind of a steady decline in those memberships. And I don't think it's because people aren't equally as busy now as they used to be, but their time is spent differently than it maybe had been in the past. And I don't know. I think my generation of people, or maybe it's just me, I tend to be a joiner. I like doing stuff with other people because I think more gets accomplished. But that's a good question. Something, I think about a lot in terms of, you know, again, what happens if our volunteers, you know, we don't have as many people that are as interested in our future or our history and moving it forward. So, my big hope is kids as all, as we like to make sure that they think history is something important and to be cherished. Friedman: How do you like to reach out to school groups? Do you have like a school program? Do you have special exhibits for that? Brown: We have, prior to COVID, we had a pretty flourishing hands-on history program for elementary students and for the primary students, they would come out to Heritage Park and participate in kind of a round robin of activities. We'd have five different activities that they would participate in. They would learn about the Native American community that lived here in San Marcos. They would take a tour of two historical houses. They would learn a craft of what kids did one hundred and twenty years ago. What kind of crafts did they do? What kind of things did they have to work with? “Did they have markers? No.” (laughs) So we do a little activity like that. We do games that kids played with pine cones and old equipment and things like that that are kind of made-up games. And then we do chores. So, they do outdoor laundry in the tub. They wash the clothes, they plant in the garden and they make biscuits and butter from scratch. So, and then at the end of the session, we get to taste the butter that we have made. So it's really about, “What was life like in San Marcos back in 1890?” And so, kids get a chance to kind of see--we partner with the Vallecitos Water District, who's very gracious to help bust the students out to Heritage Park. And then they also do a little session on water conservation. And it blends right into our concept of, you know, how did people wash their clothes and wash their dishes and where did they go to the bathroom and take a bath when there were no inside restrooms? So, it's kind of an ecology lesson as well as a sustainability lesson, but also a history lesson as well. Friedman: Those sound really exciting. My next question I realize can pertain both to, I guess, lack of volunteers and also children's education. I didn't realize it pertained to what we just spoke about Transcribed by Julia Friedman 8 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 previously, but what would you like future historians to understand about lack of funding in both education and the nonprofit sphere? Brown: Well, I guess, you know, my family, both my husband and my fathers were both elementary school principals. So we’ve been in involved with public schools our whole lives, and supportive of what public schools do and taking advantage of just amazing teachers and, you know, people who give so much to help our kids learn. And I just think that, in today's world, the things that we celebrate and invest in, while they are important, to know about, I just wish as much money could be invested into education. And I'm not just talking about K-12, I'm talking about higher education and as well. I'm a strong believer in lifelong learning and, you know, education, libraries, civic organizations are really the things that provide a huge quality of life in our community. And, you know, it, pains me a little that so much money goes into sports, and I'm not against sports, or other things that people are high ticket items, that don't end up with a lot of bang for your buck. And I just think, that it's something that we all share and we can always make better. I know there's been a lot of, you know, down talking schools as a result of the last couple of years, and I just, feel bad that teachers kind of take a brunt of stuff and just trying to do the best I can every day. Friedman: Why do you think lack of funding could be so detrimental to the preservation and understanding of history? Brown: Well, I think, I mean, history tells a lot about where we go, and where we've been. And there are, I believe, cycles that come around. But I do think, you know, again, one of the things that excites me is that I get a lot of newsletters from schools and organizations just like Cal State San Marcos. I get the update of all the cool things that are going on on the campus on a weekly basis. And I compare that with the, you know, what's on the news every night, which is kind of depressing. And I'm thinking, “Why aren't we covering all these amazing things that are going on in the local schools?” And not just Cal State San Marcos or in our local schools, but a citywide and regionwide. I mean, students are just doing some amazing things but when there's not a lot of money to support those kinds of things, it does really affect, especially, those who are not--don't have the life experience to know that you can go to a free museum, or, you know, there are free things. And I do think that educational opportunities through schools provide a lot of awareness about ways to do things that don't cost a lot of money or that are enrichment activities through the classrooms. So, and it takes money to pay for that stuff. Friedman: Yeah. That's well said. What do you think these nonprofits need to do in order to survive during these difficult times? Brown: Stick together, I guess. (laughs) Well, you know what, you do what you can do. And, you know, I'm an advocate. I don't like to, you know, diss people for what they're not doing, but really, try to appreciate people for what they do do. And, you know, make the most of it. I think April is Volunteer Month and, you know, volunteering isn't going to happen if people go and they're not enjoying it, or they're not getting some kind of reward out of it. And I think that's, you know, we need to always kind of invest in our volunteers in terms of making sure that they are able to engage in the things they like to do when they come out and volunteer. But, the Historical Society--our members--we participate in a bigger group called CINCH [Council for the Interpretation of North County History], which is all the North County historical societies. We gather four times a year just to share ideas and, you know, tips and what they're doing. And you never know when you're going to get a really good idea from somebody that turns out to be lucrative. And then I'm always looking for partnerships. I'm always looking to work with Transcribed by Julia Friedman 9 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 our agencies, our city. We're so lucky to be able to be in our city park. So we have people that come out to the park and walk by and try to talk to people that come by, invite them in. So yeah, I mean, that's my approach and I guess have grant writers that will help find the money and put it in our hands. (laughs) Friedman: That's always important. I would like to jump back a bit to San Marco Marcos’ history. Brown: Okay. Friedman: From your experience working at the San Marcos Historical Society, who do you believe are some significant historical individuals in San Marcos history, such as prominent individuals or famous families? Brown: Okay. Well, the original home--well, first of all, the Twin Oaks area is primarily--was one of the settlement areas for the Luiseño tribe. And, well, I don't have access to direct descendants of those--the mission band of Luiseño Indians are really the kind of the original homesteaders there in the Twin Oaks Valley. So, I think that we should always recognize that, you know, somebody was here before the first covered wagons came or anything like that. And then our Rancho period was very short in San Marcos. So, the first, like homesteader families that are still European homesteader families are the Merriam family. And there are a few of them still living and in this area. The Uhlands have a huge connection, not only to Heritage Park, but the whole Twin Oaks Valley area. And there are still Uhlands family members in town. The Fultons, and a lot of these, like the Fultons, the Bordens, the Barhams--those are all San Marcos street names. So, you don't have to go too far to recognize that those families have had their own streets named after them. But we recently lost the original homestead of a Fulton family, which is very sad. They had a homestead at in San Marcos in 1893, and the last family member that had lived on the homestead, moved to Nebraska last fall. So, from 1893 to 2021, was inhabited by one family. And then also out here in Twin Oaks the Astleford family were only one of two families that owned property here in Twin Oaks Valley. I mentioned William Webster Borden, the Barhams. In the Richland area, there was another Borden, Reynold Bascom Borden his house is still standing in the Richland area. So, we have, you know, again, a number of families. Friedman: That's really interesting. Are there also any individuals from San Marcos history that not as well known that we should know about such as individuals from marginalized communities? Brown: Well, actually, this is kind of interesting. Several years ago we took a world map and tried to chart all the places that, you know, people that had moved to San Marcos, where they had come from. And, while, one of the things that we realized is that we had had a very large community of Serbian and Yugoslavian families that moved to San Marcos. The Prohoroffs were originally from Russia. They moved to Mexico and then migrated up through Mexico to Southern California. We do have, we have Meadowlark Cemetery that is off Rancho Santa Fe Road. It was a pioneer cemetery over on the West end of San Marcos. And there are several homesteaders there that, you know, were there prior, between the 1850s, 1870. I'm trying to think of other--of course, you know, I look at photos of early San Marcos. We had Japanese, we had a lot of Japanese farmers that had to leave during World War II. We have a lot of Hispanic families that have come and gone through San Marcos. And usually, we will meet those people that will come to the museum that, you know, their grandparents worked at Prohoroff Ranch or in the, one of the farms here in San Marcos. But they don't live here anymore. And so, we don't have the longevity of their history. But I'm always anxious to, you know, find out some of those kind of stories that, have lived on. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 10 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: That's really interesting. Thank you. Brown: Julia. I need to get a drink. Friedman: Oh, sure. Brown: Can we stop for a minute? Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. So interview with Tanis Brown paused at 11:01. Interview with Tanis Brown resumed at 11:02. If you were to interview someone from San Marcos for an oral history interview, who would be, and why? Brown: Well, we have captured a lot of, kind of the old timey history in San Marcos from the 1800s, 1900s. But I am interested in working with people that maybe are in their sixties that have gone through the entire San Marcos school district, or actually moved here as young children and watched San Marcos grow. As an adult, I’m pretty aware of that, you know, kind of the development of the city. But it would be interesting to get a sense of a student’s perspective as they have grown. And now are adults and their take on San Marco’s history, kind of the next gen[eration] of history for the future. I mean, we have a lot of, you know, kind of more recently women in politics. And I would like to interview Pia Harris [San Marcos' first female council member], Rebecca Jones [San Marcos Mayor at time of recording], and also some of our city employees who have just an amazing background of knowledge of how things came to be. Friedman: I like that. Those are really interesting people to interview. How have you seen the city of San Marcos develop over the last forty years? Brown: (laughs) Well, when my kids first walked to school in San Marcos in 1976, Woodland Park was an elementary school. It's now a middle school. And it was built in the seventies when there was really very little money for new schools. But it was an open school. So, there were no dividers. And the only dividers in the school were short bookcases. And when we walked down to meet the principal before school started, he was standing on a ladder in the very center of the building, looking around at all the-where the classrooms would be. And, we just kind of thought, “Oh my gosh.” It was very interesting, but on the way, walking to school, our children had--we had to skirt a pasture to get to school. We don't see that so much anymore. So those were kind of our first, you know, memories of moving to San Marcos and, really being in a rural community that neither my husband or I had ever felt so close to a rural atmosphere. To, you know, watching the university get built to watching buildings get moved and relocated for the city hall complex. For--certainly traffic is very different. There were no traffic signals in San Marcos until 1974. There was one four-way stop at Mission Empico Road when I was going to Palomar College. So that four-way stop on the first day school could get really crazy. But the thing that I feel kind of most proud about is that we really established, many years ago, that San Marcos would keep a quality of life through parks, open spaces, and trails, so that if you wanted to ride a bicycle from one end of town to the other, or to visit a park, there would be one in your neighborhood and you would have a connection to that. So that part of the growth of San Marcos, I think, is going to pay off in the long run as we continue to develop new neighborhoods like North City and still keeping a quality of life, as well as accommodating people who want to live here. And that doesn't mean just a certain, you know, type of person. We need to keep are community a blended community. So young people, old people, any stripe of person can move to San Marcos, find a home, and a connection. And I think Transcribed by Julia Friedman 11 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 between city, and the organizations, and the resources that we have is that we want to be a welcoming place for anybody who comes to San Marcos. Yeah. Friedman: Thank you. What to you makes San Marcos and San Marcos history so fascinating to study? Brown: Well, I just like the idea that you can, you know, you can create things. I think people come to different communities. Something usually draws them to an area. Like even as back as the first tribal communities, they found what was going to meet their needs: water, flat land, access to food, and shelter. And, I think people are still doing that. They're looking for something that meets their needs. And so I think as we move forward that it's our responsibility to make sure that we provide opportunities for people that come here. I'm not sure I answered that question very well. Friedman: No you did, thank you. And what do you think is so important or what is important about understanding local history? Brown: Okay. Well, I think, I mean, history's human. I mean, you know, a lot of people say, and we always have to second guess ourselves, because the minute you put something down on paper and then somebody--and it's written and somebody'll say, “Well, that isn’t the way I remember it.” So, there's so much humanity in history and it's how we, you know, how we look at it and maybe our opinion of that history changes. But it is. And there isn't just one history, you know. We all make our own history. And so, but I do think--I love the opportunity that we have, at least that I have, and that we're willing to share about information that people felt was important enough to document back in the 1880s or [18]90s, and may have some relevance for us today. We recently were going through the Fulton papers, which we’re archiving, and we found a reference in a letter about the 1916 flood that was here in San Marcos, which we have a photo of in our museum. And that same letter also referenced the pandemic in 1918. So, to me, and it's like, “Oh my gosh,” because we didn't, well, we weren't necessarily looking for it, as it related to San Marcos, but when we saw it, it was like, “Oh my gosh,” it talked about this lady who was willing to go over and help her neighbors out who had the Spanish Flu. And so here it was right here in San Marcos. And I don't know, that just to me create some kind of bond between people from 1918 that were right here in the same neighborhood or in the same place that we were, or we are now. And, so I don't know. That's just so exciting to me that a hundred years ago they were experiencing kind of the same thing and not exactly knowing how to deal with it. So, not that much has changed in spite of all the cars, in spite of all the buildings, not that much has changed. We're still people. And that's what I think history is really about people's stories. Friedman: Well, thank you so much, Tanis. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else you'd like to share today? Brown: Well, I would just like to say that, whoever is viewing this video is welcome to come out and visit Heritage Park in Walnut Grove Park. And, we welcome and would love to share history with you. Friedman: Very well said. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being part of this project. Brown: Well, I'm really happy to--I wasn't expecting to do that. I was expecting to share other people's names, but I'm happy to have shared my history with you. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 12 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: Thank you. We're so happy that you are a part of this project and we're so happy to have your story become a part of our collection. Brown: Great. Me too. Friedman: Well, thank you. Brown: Okay. So is that, is that it. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 13 2023-02-22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brown, Tanis. Interview transcript. April 13, 2022. Description An account of the resource Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tanis Brown Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-13 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos San Marcos (Calif.) -- History San Marcos Historical Society -- California -- San Marcos Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-20 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/35e9e4684adf94123fb801dc0efe5b35.pdf 4f2797a71fce1b3f3f8626ce7b872d70 PDF Text Text THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 1 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 2 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 3 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs; two, it was warm (laughs); and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 4 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 5 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 6 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents-my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I-and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 7 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—" it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 8 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like-and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 9 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 10 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 11 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 12 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 13 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 14 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 15 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 16 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 17 2022-05-11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ha, Thao. Interview transcript. April 14, 2022. Description An account of the resource Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thao Ha Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-14 Subject The topic of the resource Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam) Houston (Tex.) Saigon (Vietnam) San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">in copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thao Ha License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-21 Type The nature or genre of the resource text Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2c516f34374336a003467920b9e6a60e.pdf 5a59759182ca0ebad99808f33264f291 PDF Text Text DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 Diania Caudell: Is my lipstick okay? [laughs] Linda Kallas: Today is October 27, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Diania Caudell as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you, Diania, for being here, and allowing me to do this with you today. DC: No $uun Looviq [“My heart is good” in Luiseno. Our way of saying “thank you.”] [chuckles] LK: Miiyu. [“Hello” to one person in Luiseno.] DC: Miiyu [laughs]. LK: Um, we were—I just wanted to ask you when and where you were born. DC: Uh, where was I—April 16, 1948. I was born here in North County, San Diego—Oceanside, California, San Diego County. LK: And was your family an active part of any cultural community, such as religious or ethnic groups? DC: Well [sighs] yeah, we were, uh, part of the first indigenous people here in the Americas or whatever you want to say on that part. Um, we are part of the San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians, uh, been in the area as far as, uh, the written is concerned, you know, since they were written at the Missions, I would say the 1700s, because after that it was, um, mostly—before that it was all oral. So, um, we’ve been here over nine generations. That’s on the native side. LK: That’s on the native side. DC: Yeah. LK: Which means— DC: It means that— LK: On the other side is— DC: On the other side, the French side came to us, and he landed here in 1868. He was Hubert Foussat. Here in San Francisco. He was one of the founding fathers of Oceanside. LK: Is that why there’s a street named after him? DC: Yes. But that’s not at a—that’s not named after my great grandfather. That’s named, really, with—after his brother, Ramon Foussat. LK: Okay. DC: And he’s the one that had the ranch in the area up there, by Highland and Oceanside. Faustino Foussat had the land there in the valley, San Luis Rey Valley. LK: And there’s also an elementary school named Louise Foussat. 1 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: Yes. She’s—I’ve always called her as an aunt, but she’s really a cousin. Um, she was—she married a Foussat. Okay. Her maiden name is a Munoa, and her mother was, um, Theresa Gidden, Theresa Giddens, and, um, that’s another one that’s—she was born at Pala, and, uh,that’s another side of our family, my father’s side, that had been here a long time. That’s another whole side that I could talk about when you get to that point, if you want to, and his grandmother— LK: Okay. DC: —was born on the Marron Ranch in 1865, so— LK: So, your family history stretches way back in the North County. DC: Yes. Yes. LK: Um, this seems like a silly question, but how do you like living and working here? DC: [laughs] Okay, it—all I can tell you is that, um, I wouldn’t want to live anyplace else, you know, other than—growing up, I lived all over the state of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada, only because I’m, I’m a construction brat, let’s just put it that way. My father was a heavy construction operator, had his own equipment. So, if you go anywhere here in California for the freeways, he probably helped build those, all the dams here in California, uh, he was probably was working on those, um, also like Parker Dam in New Mexico, you know, even in Arizona, I mean, excuse me, Arizona. You have some of the bigger dams, you know, throughout [breathes in] so, um, my mother kept coming back to North County, because she was born here in San Luis Rey Valley. Her family, her family’s from here. My father’s family is from Pala. So, we kept coming back and, um, I think she put her foot down from travelling when my brother and I were in junior high. So, I graduated from Escondido High School, and stayed in Escondido until I got married, then I moved up to Orange County, San Juan Capistrano. I was up there for 40 some years, before I came back down here to my home. LK: Wow. DC: [laughs, then bell chimes] Oh-oh. Is that me? LK: Well, so you do feel part of the community, and within that, do you feel like you have a support network? DC: Well, if you’re gonna say support network, you’re going to have to look at the whole family, okay. Just with my great-grandfather. He had 11 daughters. LK: Wow. DC: And so, one of them was my grandmother, and he raised my mother because her father died when she, when she was a young child. And so, my great-grandfather, Faustino Foussat, raised her. So, when you have a large—just one branch of the Foussat family that had all these sisters and all these children, um, there’s a support group on the ones that were close [chuckles] let’s just say. My grandmother, um, was born in San Luis Rey Valley, uh, lived there all her life, uh, well not all her—until she retired, and then she went to Hemet. But, she retired from Camp 2 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 Pendleton. She was one of the first workers there, you know, in the pressing. So, network-wise, yes, we have a good network of family. But, they all kind of seem to travel away, you know, on some things. Still, today, you know, because it’s San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians which I’m part of, we have good support network, in that, within relatives. I mean we have—I have a lot of cousins, you know, and related on both sides. If we had to talk about that, I’m double related on some of them, and people just kind of wonder what—how did that happen? When you try to explain the story, uh, it gets confusing. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, we just want to do a big picture one day [laughs]. LK: That would be nice. Um, you said that you were in Orange County for 40 years. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, tell me about the work you did there. DC: [sighs] Ok. Let’s just start that—when I got married, I moved up there and, um, when I was here I was starting in accounting. Okay? I’m an accountant by trade. That wasn’t really what I wanted to do, but that’s how it ended up, you know, going into accounting. Um, so I did a lot of accounting for dealerships. Went back to college to get my degree into Accounting, and then went into accounting, business law, etc. so I stayed—like to work with numbers. I’m just good with numbers. And, so, I worked with dealerships, school districts, medical field in the accounting field. I didn’t become, later on, the weaver or in, with my cultural until I had to have a back injury. So, for 40-some years, up there in San Juan Capistrano, Orange County, I got involved with the Acjachemen people, the Juaneños there, helping them through Indian education, in the 70s, because that’s a story that— I can go into that, and I think I—it’s kind of long but shortly is that I grew up with being native, and the schools not teaching us correctly. Okay? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You read the books, etcetera, and you hear about how they were dressed, what they were, were they savages? Etcetera. And I would come home from school and saying this is not how we are. And then my mother, my grandmother, and family would say “Don’t argue, Diania, just let it go.” And so when I got married, and my two children, my son and my daughter, when they went to school up there in the Palisades, or in Capistrano Unified School District, they came home one day and said they were entitled to something other. It was like a Spanish program, Title II, at that time. And so, I went to the school to find out how my children got tagged into—in the Spanish community, when my last name is French, and it’s Caudell. And so, talking with the school principal, um, we found out that I followed that person that was in charge of Title II, and what had happened—how my two ended up coming with that notice is that this person went around the school to the classrooms and asked questions. Now, if you had a surname, with Romero, Sanchez, Alvaros, Valenzuela, any of those Spanish names, she automatically put them down on the list as a Spanish or Mexican. Uh, then, the other question when she got that from the roster, she then would ask “how many children here already know that their parents, or grandparents, 3 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 speak Spanish.” Well, my two automatically raised their hand because their father spoke Spanish. And he was taught that from his mother and also because of the community of San Juan Capistrano. You’ve got to think of the missions. That was the language that was taught to the Indian people. And, um, so that’s how my two got on there. And so I challenged that at the school district, at the, you know, with the superintendent, and, uh, they came back at me and saying “well, the last Indian person that was living here in San Juan Capistrano died in 1933, and he was the bell-ringer.” And I go, “no, that can’t be, because I’m here. I’ve got relatives that are married into the Juaneño or Acjachemen people. You still have them here, and so, um, I became an advocate [laughs], an activist, or whatever you want to say, and contacted my relatives there, that are—that married into the Acjachemen people, and, identified them. We went back to the school district, and went through all their rosters, because back in the 70s, when you’re ethnic, when they ask you that question, when you’re enrolling your student, your child, they ask you what ethnic group you are. Well, in those days—I’m saying those days, in the 70s, you only had, like, you had Caucasian, you had Asian—not even Asian, really. Mexican, I think. But you didn’t have the—what you have today is the Native American/Alaskan ethnic group. And so I always put us under “Other” as Native American, because I am a registered through the B.I.A., Bureau of Indian Affairs, and I have my certification, that I am who I am, meaning Native American. And, um, so I always made sure that my children would have that, going through there. So, we went through K-12, went to the registry of the school district and got all their cum files, or whatever they call them, those information files, and took home all the ones that were identified as Native American. A lot of them were not, because they didn’t want to, because it was passed down to us that you didn’t want to register as Native American because it wasn’t the best thing to do. So, they always put Caucasian. So, from K-12 in that school district, Capistrano High School District, we had identified 210 students. LK: Wow. DC: And so that kind of put us into the category of challenging the school. Uh, UCI had Kogee Thomas at that time. She was the Director. She heard about what was happening. She came down to become my mentor. With that, because she’s really high with the Seminoles and Muscogee people at that, then, and we wrote the first grant. We brought in Title IV, Indian Education Act, Public Law 194, in 1975. [laughs] LK: Wow. DC: So, I’ve been through this for a long time. We ended up forming the San Juan Capistrano Council, because they had to reform themselves again. They never left. They just said their leader moved, and they just kind of—in the 60s, or in the 50s, he left, and so they just kind of knew they were there, but they weren’t formally formed yet. So we reformed them. So today I can just tell you that in Capistrano Unified School District, they still have Indian Education. They have a Indian Research Center, kind of, for teachers, instructors, and parents, there on the Clarence Lobo Elementary school grounds. LK: Mm-hmm. 4 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: That if you wanted to study any Indian, not just California, any, any native person across indigenous person across the United States, in Alaska and Hawaii, etc., that you can go to that resource center, and that instructor, teacher, parent can pull the correct information that these tribes have handed in. So, that was one of my things that I did up there, other than just being an accountant. LK: Wow, that’s impressive. DC: Okay, that was in the community. [laughs] LK: Yes, yes. And then you mentioned you hurt your back and that’s what lead you to getting into basketry. Can you talk a little bit about that? DC: [sighs] Yeah, that was, um, a fall I had, okay? I don’t want to describe the fall, because it’s kind of, you know, it’s kind of stupid. I mean, the thing is when you hurt your back, um, I thought I’d go to the chiropractor. I went to work, and was working in Huntington Beach at that time, and I drove my car to Huntington Beach, went to sit down at my desk at the dealership, sat down and I couldn’t move. They had to literally pick me up, take me to my car. I called my chiropractor in Newport and, uh, he went to adjust it, and he says “This isn’t that, you know. This is something else.” And so they took x-rays, and he still tried the adjustment. I—and it got a point where I had to quit. I couldn’t—you know, I was losing to walk, etc. And the pain kept going through that, and then finally when they did an MRI on me, you know, they found out that I had―let me see, I’m trying to figure out how to describe this, because I’m not a medic, medical person— I was diag—rheumatism arthritis runs in our family on my dad’s side, my grandmother’s side. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Not too much on my mother’s side, but on, through my dad’s side. And so, I guess hereditarily, I have that in my system. What are you going to do? So, when I hit the lower back really hard, I accelerated the arthritis rheumatism in my spine. And so when that happened, that’s what they found with the MRI. So, they said “Diania, if you don’t have, do something with it, it’s going to get worse, and you’re going to lose a lot of functions that you normally can take that you can control of. And, anyway, I put it off a whole year. I didn’t want to have my back opened up. And so, I got to a point where I couldn’t deal with this anymore. And so, I had to say yes. They opened up 5, 4, and 6 of your vertebraes <sic>. They opened them up, and all I can describe it was a rotor-rooter job. She went in there, and just tried to scrape out all the rheumatism, or arthritis, away from my spine, inside my spine. And when she did that, she hit one of the sciatic nerves. LK: oh… DC: And uh, ‘cuz it, nothing’s replaced. They just sealed it back up again. And, uh, so when I came out of surgery, I didn’t realize that I couldn’t walk because the nurses tried to—they put those belts [gestures tying a belt around her waist] on you when you’re going to go and make you go to the restroom, etc., you know, when you’re [unintelligible] and when I went to get out the bed, I fell straight to the floor. Thank goodness I had belts on me, because the two nurses and 5 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 all the surgeons come running in, and I lost everything from the waist down. Had to learn how to walk all over again. It took me—they said “Diania, you’re going to have to learn patience.” And I’m not one with patience, let’s put it that way. I do have patience for other people, but not for myself. So, I didn’t know what to do and the Acjachemen people had sent me a newsletter, and my mom brought it up, and on the front cover of that newsletter that was next to the, my bed in the hospital was Lillian Robles. She’s an elder. She’s passed on before, but she had a basket hat on. And I saw the basket hat and I went “Oh, great. I guess to learn patience, I guess I can get into basketry.” LK: Oh… DC: And I never was in it. I was more in the Indian education. I was more into the helping with the activities. My mother was a weaver. My aunts were weavers, their jewelry, they’re always crafting with their hands. I was not. They always pushed me away, and said “Diania, you know, we’re need—we need you in education. We need you speaking for our people.” And so when I called, I looked at that, and I called Teeter Romero who was a top weaver from the Acjachemen people, and she—her and I were really close, worked together for years, with Indian education— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―Inter-tribal Council of California, I mean, the different areas, you know, for the people, Indian people. And I called her, and let her know that, um, I need to become a weaver. Well, she started laughing on the phone, when I called from the hospital, because she didn’t know where I was at. LK: She laughed at you? DC: Well, she laughed at me, because she said “you’re not a weaver, you know, you’re just not a weaver.” And then she says “Why?” And I says “Well, I’m in the hospital, and I can’t walk, and I need to learn patience.” So, when she heard that, she says “okay, when you’re able to get home and sit up in a wheelchair, we’ll come to you.” And, they did. I was with my mom here in Escondido, at that time. And they came down. About six months—let’s see, I had the operation in April; they came down in June. And I was being able to sit up in there. I was still trying to learn to walk. I was with a walker. And, they came! And they started, uh—sat down with me, and the first thing they gave me was raffia in one hand and pine needle in the other, and they had me doing the coiling, just to learn to go round and round and round and round, with basketry. From then on, it took me, you know, work—it took me almost two years to learn how to walk again, by myself. I was with a—I couldn’t drive. My mom was driving me all over. I had the walker. I got everything back in my left leg, but on my right leg not everything came through. And so, another six to eight months, I was doing acupuncture at Indian Health Council in Rincon, because I didn’t want to open up my back again, okay, have another surgery. So, I don’t have a lot of feeling in my right foot, from my calf, I think, down. But, I do think it—people don’t realize that, you know, that I don’t, but that’s what put me into retirement, really. LK: How many years ago was that? DC: Okay. When did 9/11, what year was that? 2001? 6 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: That was ’01. DC: Okay, ’01. LK: 09. DC: Because, yeah, April of ’01, because I remember I was still in bed and my mom got a call from her sister and my mom come running in to my bedroom, trying to insist I turn the TV on, and what she says—my mom was crying and I looked at that and there it was when I saw the airplane hit. They had that going on the towers and it was like looking at a movie. LK: Yeah. DC: Okay. That was just unbelievable. Okay? So, that was April, September, okay. It was— that’s how I can remember. I can never remember the year, but I just think it’s the year of 9/11. So twenty-oh-one, right? LK: Yeah, 21 years ago. DC: Yeah, so it was 21 years ago. I was still on—I have been on social security disability, because I can’t sit that long. So, if I get up on you guys, and take a break, then I’m sorry, you know, but that—My, my job was an accountant, and so that was sitting a lot. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then to get up and sit and get up is one of the things. So, uh, that’s how I got into basketry and I’m still doing that today, you know, on that. But, it’s taken me learning different things, you know, getting—you want me to go into California Indian Basket Weavers Association? LK: Yeah, I― DC: [laughs] okay, okay. LK: I was going to ask that—I—but I wanted to go back, just for a minute— DC: Okay. LK: —to Indian education. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, I think you said it’s still going on to this day. You still, they still have that educational program in San Juan Capistrano. DC: Yeah, they still have the Capistrano Unified School District and it’s going still strong, but they have to be the parents that have to want it. LK: Ah, okay. 7 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: It doesn’t just stay with the Acjachemen people. And they do have, I think they have a resource instructor there, someone in their administration, that they do go out for. Because it is a fund. It’s funding, it’s federal funding. All school districts need money― LK: Right. DC: ―and it’s a head count. And so, Capistrano Unified School District still has it, so does Huntington Beach, because they have a large community of the Cherokee Indian― LK: Oh! DC: ―outside natives coming in, because a lot of people don’t realize, that if they do start researching, you can go into 1963. They had the Relocation Act, of Native Americans. And, this isn’t taught in schools. This isn’t taught in—you know, for the general public, sometimes, unless you’re involved with Native Americans and their—and the different things. Well, 1963 they relocated Cherokee, Choctaw, and a lot of different native groups into California. LK: Oh… DC: You know, a lot of the Cherokees went to the Anaheim area, Huntington Beach area, and settled there. You had a lot of the Cherokee, Osage, and some coming down to San Diego. The largest Choctaw Relocation is in Bakersfield. LK: I’ll be darned. DC: So, yeah, it’s a—it was—it’s interesting, uh, how they did move native people around to get them away from their “homeland” and give them incentives at that time that “we can move you to California. You know, you can emerge into there” and stuff. And so a lot of it is kind of detrimental but with them, they brought their, they brought their culture and their tradition with them, which is good. LK: So, if you could see something change in regard to that educational program, what would it be? Would it be to expand it to San Diego County? Would it be… DC: Well, San Diego County had a big—has a big Indian education program. They did—they— you just don’t hear about it― LK: Okay. DC: ―um, in their school district. What it would be good to expand on there is that, um, to get it more to the public, to the other schools, okay. It takes a school district to want it. I’ve notified Oceanside. I’ve notified Vista. In Vista alone, a few years ago, they identified another 200, because now they have that on their information form of the child’s registers, you know, what ethnic group you are. And 210 had registered as Native American. It doesn’t mean they’re, you know, San Luis Rey or California. They can be from anywhere in the United States. And most of them that do register for their ethnic group know that they are, or they’ve been told that they are. LK: Mm-hmm. 8 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: But it gets a parent, it’s gotta be a parent to initiate it, to get a parent group together, and that way they can work with the school district. And then they can apply for grants. And then they can get the head count. Then they can get a resource instructor in there, or someone to work with the Indian education, and then it comes in with tutoring. That was one thing I did. I knew for, just for reading and math, at least. Get the children on the tutoring. They have the tutoring. They were pulled out of class or they brought the equipment in, if they needed equipment. There, Capistrano Unified School District, we’ll go back to that. It was shown as a need. Getting the general books that they need into the libraries. That’s how that resource center started, because the school districts will only go by what the state says, for state books, state history books, they―etc. The Native peoples say “No, that’s not correct. We will want our own books coming in.” So that’s what we did in the 70s. We brought in records. At that time, you didn’t have CDs or you know, what we had, you know, you had— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: LPs. And so we brought in records of the singing of the different groups. They brought in books that the teachers can get through, or parents could check out, you know, and working with that to get the education in there. And you have to have the school district to want to work with you. Um, we—it was a hard thing, with, even with Capistrano Unified School District, to do it. But if I didn’t have the help with Kogee Thomas and some of the top people that come from back east, that were very strong in their native cultural, that I don’t think that Capistrano would have done it either. ‘Cuz we challenged them. We challenged them, so— LK: But, how enriching for the students. DC: It is, but you got to have again, you gotta have a parent― LK: Right. DC: ―who would want that, so their student or their child can get that extra help. LK: There has to be a buy-in for it, with the parent. DC: Yes, and so it’s, it’s—today, in Capistrano Unified School District, the ones that do use it— I know my grandchildren went through it—they provided the computers at home for the tutoring. You know, they didn’t have to go to like a trailer, or be pulled out of class, and be taken, you know, like to a tutorial room like we did in the 70s. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, with the st—with my two children, my daughter used it and they had computers at home. The school district provided these computers, these laptops for the home that they could use and they got tutored every day, since they were in grade school. All the way through high school. LK: Wow. It gave them a really good sense of self. DC: It gave a sense of self, and they—at first it was “why do we have to do this for half an hour every day?” [laughs] I mean, but as they got older in high school, and then went to college, you 9 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 know, especially going through all those tests that you have to take for college, they, they were happy because they knew a lot of the questions and were able to answer them. Because of the tutorial they had, um, above and beyond what they normally get in school, in class. LK: Wow. That’s wonderful. So, you’ve already explained a little bit about your life’s path, how it’s evolved and changed over the years, so I was going to ask you if you wanted to share a little bit more about the basketry and CIBA, and I see that you have a little sample of one. DC: [laughs] Ok. When you said CIBA, I don’t think everybody knows what CIBA is, okay. You’re familiar with it. CIBA is California Indian Basket Weavers Association. Um, that’s another thing that I have been a member of and I’m on the Board for the last umpteen years, I would say—let’s just say the last 12 years. I know it’s been longer. Uh, but how I got involved in that, again, was going back to when I became basket—learning basketry and the plants, finding out that southern California doesn’t have everything that they normally have. If you know the county here, we’ve got 18 reservations here in the San Diego County alone and the people— where they were sent—aren’t on their homelands. I mean— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s not where they would have their medi—their medicinal plants, their foods, or their traditional cultural plants like basketry and other things, and so they had—the people had to go off the reservations, and to public lands, which would be your forestries, um, county parks, state parks, etc., even private land, to get the materials that they need for the basketry. Well, I had a problem with that because I didn’t understand that, you know, and why did they have the restrictions here in southern California when I found out that in central California, they don’t have that. In northern California they don’t have the same restrictions. But it’s because a lot of these central reservations or rancherias in northern California, too, is that they’re on their homelands. They’re rancherias. They weren’t like taken from one area and moved. Okay. They’ve had little rancherias, then. That’s what they called them, instead of reservations, up in northern California, spread out. And so they were on their lands and they had the traditional materials. LK: Oh, I see. DC: For example, you’ve got the Yuroks and the Hoopas up there. They’re in the forest up there. They have the red for—the, the redwoods. They got the forest. They’ve got a lot of their plants. And that’s their economic development. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But, that’s―they don’t call them reservations. They call them rancherias. Okay, so, so I started asking questions about that. You know, I’d say “how come, what for?” And I went to a gathering of CIBA, because they have a large gathering once a year for the basket weavers of the state of California, and I started asking “how come, what for, why is it that in California we don’t have this, when you have it up there?” And then I was told by a board member, “Well, Diania, you keep asking these questions. Why don’t you—we’re having a Board election. Why don’t you throw your hat in, your name, and we can see what we can do?” Well, I got elected. 10 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 You know, I mean, I didn’t expect that at all. And I’ve been on it ever since, since 2003. And, uh, so I became an advocate of, for southern California, to get in, our traditional trading, you know, gathering, etc., our traditional materials, you know, on that. And so, if I didn’t enjoy what I’m doing and have a passion for it, you know, I think learning about my traditional materials that we use for basketry, which is hard to find here in southern California, if you don’t get somebody to help you, you know, with that. And, um, so I think being educating people has helped me. LK: Um, the traditional materials are hard to find because of development? They’ve all been— DC: Yes, uh— LK: —plowed over or— DC: Um, there’s a—[reaching to her left for a brochure with the front cover reading “Indian Rock Project”] okay, let me just see, I’m just going to go through here. This here, this is Indian Rock Project, okay. This is something that we worked with the Cal St—uh, San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians and Cal State San Marcos worked together with Palomar College to do, to put this book out. This was done in 2003, which was a long time ago. But in here, in this book, let me just—[flipping through pages]—the—when you see what they—when you ask me about, uh—[looking at a particular page]—uh, where is it? [flips through more pages] And then you all—she’s probably going to edit this, but that’s okay. Because I was asked that question that you were just asking, and [still flipping through pages] LK: About the natural— DC: I found it. Okay, I had said here, on here “preserving tradition” and this is, you know― [turning the booklet to Linda to show her the specific pages]—I ended up being in the booklet, okay, okay, on this Indian Rock Project [shows front cover] You could probably go online, you know, and download it, because they don’t have any more of these booklets. But, when you asked me that question, I said [she’s reading from the booklet] “a lot of our things are being destroyed. If you look at our environment around us, we have development, development, development. Juncus and all the plants that we use for actually making the baskets are being destroyed. When we are out driving, we stop, we get out there, and we take pictures. I want to find a spot, notify the nearest reservations, notify the Forestry, notify the developers—“Can we go in? Can we pick? Can we transplant? Because if you are going to develop it and destroy it, let us go in.” That was a statement that I had made, you know, for—for, for, like an interview for this booklet. So— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then it went on [flipping through booklet again] into who I am or whatever. But, um, yes, the development. And so more developers now are finding out that if you do have—if you do identify traditional materials and stuff, they are now trying to hopefully preserve ‘em, or to have you come in and take them, or use them. But it is. Southern California is, gets hit with a lot of development because you look around here and you’re looking at it. I’m looking at the Mission San Juan—Mission, excuse me, San Luis Rey Mission. If you ever go by there, and stuff 11 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 like this, you’ll see we had wetlands there right next to it, and through the Lavanderia and right next to the Mission, what’s happening now? The Mission leased it out, or sold it, whatever you want to say—99-some years. You’ve got this big, huge retirement center going in there. It’s like a resort. They are built on the wetlands, and uh, there went something that was natural, native, etc., and it’s being developed. You drive around to different places now, here in San Diego County, and you’re seeing development. So, it’s really hard on— LK: Everywhere you look. DC: Yeah, and I just don’t understand, for me, where they’re getting their water from. Because if we have a resource of, of water—that’s one of the things that we don’t have here in southern California. We have to bring it in from other places. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: How can you develop and, and, and bring in people, more and more people, so how are you going to give them water? Feeding you know—if you’re going to feed, you’ve got the grocery stores yet, or whatever. You still can’t even have farmland any more hardly, but water. Water is essential for all living things. So, where they come, the water? I mean, the lease on the Colorado River is coming up. That was only a 99-year agreement. How are they going to negotiate that, if they want to stop the Colorado River from coming in? You know, I know they’re doing desalting plant, but that’s not even good for the ocean, you know, and not even good for us as people. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, that’s a big question that I ask. Every time I drive around and see these developments, you know, and it’s money. It’s politics and money. Okay, we can go on. We won’t go into that—[laughs] LK: Well, going back to the baskets— DC: Okay. LK: Can you tell us some of the natural fibers that you use, natural plants you use in the baskets. DC: Okay. LK: The traditional— DC: —Traditional plants. In the state of California, we have over 243 different tribes, 26 different dialects of language, and each one of the—in California, it’s kind of divided up, like in northern, central, and southern, and we all don’t use the same plants. Here in southern California, we basically use about five. And that would be Juncus textilis, which is a green reed that grows near water. It needs water. It’s like a tule, if you’ve seen tule in― LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―these wetlands, and stuff, or at these lakes, lagoons, but it’s not cornered or— Tule has three—is three-sided. Juncus textilis, is round. It’s a round reed, and it grows up straight. It 12 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 could—If you know how crab grass grows, it has, is that right? How it goes—what do you call that [gestures with her right hand, pointing straight and making curves in a snake-like fashion]— you know, you pull it out of the shoots— LK: Uh-huh. DC: —you know, like crab grass— LK: Yeah. DC: And, anyway, uh, depending on where it’s growing at and the materials that are in the— minerals—excuse me—that are in the soil, the bottom of the root type of thing, where the shaft comes out of there, the reed comes out of that shaft, it’ll have color on it. And it’s either from a deep light brown, mahogany color, to a deep red mahogany color. And, I didn’t bring any of those baskets with me. I was going to, okay, but maybe I should have, but I didn’t. If you ever notice some of the traditional baskets, you’ll see this deep red color or brown color— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That’s usually coming from the Juncus on the, on the end of the shaft on there, bottom part, which is in the ground. It’s green when you plant—It’s green when you collect it. You have to process it. It takes time. It grows with poison oak. That’s another thing. We call it—it’s our protector. The only time we go and gather the Juncus textilis is when we say the poison oak goes to sleep, and that only means that the leaves are gone. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it’s still going to be contaminated, probably, with poison oak. And that’s why we don’t teach it as much, because some people don’t want to be dealt with, with poison oak. That’s what, that’s the reed that we use for coiling. Okay? And that takes a process, splitting, etc., and getting it ready. It takes anywhere from six months to a year to even get your material ready to do a basket. The next one that we use for our start would be the center, which is the center of the basket, is yucca. And that, again, is that—what is it, yucca—uh, the Whippi? Or they call it the “Lord’s Candle.” It think you’ve seen it down by the road. You’ll see it growing on the hillsides. There’s different ways to use that. Some people will take the dead leaves, those great big green ones that they have and they grow pretty, even from the agave— LK: Mm-hmm. DC:—and the yucca. When you see those dead ones, or dried out, in the desert, etc., you can take those and you can soak them really, really big in a big tub, and then you take that, and you pound it. And you just keep pounding it, when they’re—you know, when you’re drying them. And they’ll—they’ll turn fibrous, like string— LK: Oh. 13 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC:—and that’s how you get your yucca sandals, and things like that, that they use in fiber, or your cordage. The other way you can do is with the yucca is you take the center of the new shoots that are coming out, before it becomes a flower in the stalk. [gestures up with an open hand] You take that, and you twist it, and you get about 30 or 40 small, small [gestures to indicate smallness of an object] little leaves, and then you take those and you shred ‘em with a needle—we do—or pound them, and uh, you don’t need to go out there anymore because you’re not going to make 30 or 40 bags in your lifetime, as far as I know. I’m not going to. But you have enough to where you don’t have to go out there and gather them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Then, deer grass. People use deer grass as a native plant for decoration or whatever, because it’s drought tolerant. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it’s not that Pampas grass that you see waving from that Africa—that African one is an invasive plant. I wish people would just take it away, and these nurseries—just take it out, you know get it—because that Pampas grass kills everything on the native plants. It just takes over. And deer grass is similar to it, but it doesn’t have that fan on the top. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And, uh, the deer grass, we gather that and we take the shoots or the stems on them, and we gather, and that’s what we coil around [gestures in a coiling fashion with both hands] So, the traditional, for the Mission baskets they called here that the Luiseño use, Cahuilla use, Kumeyaay use, the Cupeno use here in southern California, even the Chumash further up, and your Tongva and your different people. We do a coiling technique. Okay? So have you ever seen those baskets in museums, etc., you’ll see that one by one, they’re coiling. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They’re coiling the Juncus textilis. They’re coiling around with sticks that they use, which would be deer grass. And the center star that you see in the middle [creates a circle with her fingers on her left hand] is done with yucca. And sometimes it’s also done with Juncus on Juncus, or Juncus on Deer Grass. It all depends who the weaver is, etc. Since we have to gather that, and we can’t find it all over, you know what we do, we try to really work with the forestries, and private owners, and people. Try and get them to plant. It’s not easy to plant the Juncus textilis because it’s not going to grow everywhere. So, there’s different areas that do have it. If you want to see Juncus textilis, where it’s at, you can see it in the public, it’s in the public discovery center there in Carlsbad. LK: Oh. DC: They have a good—kind of like a little garden, that they have it growing there. And the deer grass and the yucca. And that was done because we worked with the Discovery Center years ago with Cal State San Marcos and the students. And we did all the planting there, when it was there. So, if you want to see that, I would go there and visit it. And you can see what the Juncus textilis 14 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 looks like. See, uh—[sighs]—but doing basketry is that—what I have here is samples. I did bring a basket. I just brought these hair pieces that I’ve made for my two granddaughters [shows beautiful, small round woven hairpieces]. Can you see them okay?— LK: Yes, yes. DC: Out of Juncus. If you see, this one here is a little bit darker, and the black there [now holding only one of the hairpieces, with a woven black ring in the mid-region of the weave, and gesturing to this area] is dyed Juncus, okay? Now, that Juncus, um, was dyed with—[looking at the hairpiece now, more intensely]—I don’t know, this was given to me, [chuckling] the dyed Juncus, so I’m assuming they did it with, um, elderberry leaves, okay, and um, put in the Juncus, and in a can, okay, or, or like a coffee can that’s all rusty. And what you do—you put the rusted can in there. You have your Juncus already split and put into the weaver, and then you put, um, into a coffee can [gesturing to show the size of the can] and it’s all rusty. You put some rusty nails in it at the bottom, and then you start layering it with the Juncus textilis. It’s the process. And on top of that you put elderberry leaves, and you keep going ‘til you fill it. [gestures indicating layers building up] Then you fill it with water. LK: Oh. DC: And then you let the water—and then you put that can somewhere so it can ferment. It’s like I tell you, it’s got to get all yucky and like, rotten, and what it is is that it probably turns black. And it’s—and you’re getting the iron—what do you call that? Iron oxide?— LK: Uh-huh. DC: —from the, from the nails and from the rusty can. Then when you empty it out, your Juncus is black. LK: Wow. DC: Dyed black. And that’s also what’s coming from the elderberry leaves. Another way that our ancestors did it was that during the creeks they knew where there was iron oxide in the soil, in the sand. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They would get their Juncus, and they would bury it in that sand. They’d come back, weeks later or whatever, and dig it out, and it’ll be black. Another way they do it, up in northern California, and in here too, is using walnuts, because we had, you know—black walnuts is a native plant of California. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And so they would take the shells, crunch ‘em up, you know shells, the outside shell, they’re called, and if you’ve ever picked walnuts, you know that your hands get black? LK: Yeah. 15 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: Okay, because that—on the hull—because you take that, well they’ll take that hull and chop it up, and then put in water, and put your Juncus in there, and with the walnut there, and they’ll turn black, too. LK: Wow. DC: That’s just one other way. It takes time. And they also use the acorn husk, or the shell of the acorn, and the black acorn, or any of the acorns, crush ‘em up again and put them in water, put the Juncus in there, and then you have to leave it. So it is a time consuming deal. So these are two headpieces I did. Now, when we get to the schools—when you get to the school— [holds up a small woven basket] this is a little basket that I’ve had for years. But this is not a native material. This material that we use for teaching is from, okay, rattan. Everybody knows what rattan is. Rattan has a pith in it. Rattan and bamboo look similar but bamboo is hollow. Rattan is got the pith. To get the pith out of the rattan, pull it, press it, and make cane. This is how you get cane. LK: Oh. DC: And so what we use here, is that you can buy cane in different rounds, or different sizes or gauges. You can get it flat. You can get it round. Uh, we get the round, and this is called Cherokee Single Wall twine. I call it, uh—we have our own twine, excuse me, but it’s not like this one, the Luiseño. And why I use Cherokee is because one of the easiest ones that the kids can use at school. It’s the closest thing that I can get to the river cane, from the Cherokee and Choctaw and the people there, in Oklahoma and that area, will use, because they go and pick their river cane. We don’t have river cane here in California. If we do have it, I wouldn’t want to go down there because it’s probably contaminated. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s got all those other things, and they probably sprayed it a lot with pesticides. And so this is what we teach in school, and I call it “Cherokee Single Walled Twine.” We make the starts. The kids can make one of these [holding up a skein of yarn] within an hour, even the adults, over two hours. And maybe not this size, maybe a little bit bigger. But this way, they don’t have any allergies or con― such so far, uh, getting sick from it. Because, I can’t guarantee our native traditional plants that we do use aren’t—it doesn’t have some type of pesticides on it, or some poisons on it that we’re not aware of. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And we use our mouth [wipes her right hand across her mouth] a lot for our third hand when we’re weaving with our traditional materials. LK: Because you have to keep them— DC: We have to keep them very moist. LK: Moist. 16 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: Everything has to moist. It has to be pliable. It has to be moist. If you’re going to be weaving with almost anything, even with cloth, even with weeds, even with flowers or stems or, you know, branches. We do use willow, though, okay? Aurora willow, or the willow tree. We make baskets out of that too. If you ever notice the big acorn granaries, they call ‘em, have you ever seen them on pictures— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —that the tribes had next to their kiichas or their ewaks for here in southern California, even northern California. They have great big acorn granaries. Those are made out of willow. They’re woven green, and when they’re woven green, uh, then they let―they dry. But do they use willow? Willow is a natural insecticide. It keeps the insects away from the acorns. And that’s why they have them high up on a stilt like, or platform, to keep their small animal away from them, or whatever. But if they do―these small animals try to get to the acorn, then they can also plug it up, or whatever. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But those acorn granaries can last for hundreds of years, you know. They’ve found, when they’ve done research, you know, in the mountains or at their villages, you’ll see a granary that is still up. But, it’s a natural insecticide. People don’t realize that the willow is a natural insecticide— LK: That’s interesting. DC: —to weave with it. LK: So, in traditional weaving, was it always the women, the tribal women, that did the baskets or did men— DC: I would say— LK: —create baskets as well? DC: Uh, yeah. Traditionally, mostly it was the women and the girls, okay? Because you’ve got to think about—before contact, especially here in California, we’re the last native people that were contacted as they came west— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―our baskets were used for cooking, for storage, for gifting, for birthing, for death. And that was our—they were utilized for everything. And that’s why they can say that “Mission baskets were woven so tight that they can hold water.” LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Well, yes and no. The only reason why they can hold water is that the deer grass in what they’ve coiled around swells. [laughs] LK: Oh. 17 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: So, but they also had the—and when they cooked in them, they used another plant that we do. It’s more fire resistant. And that’s your Trius lobata, or your sumac. And that’s kind of―it’s white. Have you ever seen baskets that have more of a white bottom to it? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That’s because it’s usually with sumac, and that one has a resistance to fire. But, only be— resistance, how can I say this—fire tolerant but not to a point. When they cooked in baskets, the cooking baskets, they were done with a stick that they’d keep moving [circles her right arm as if stirring], and they were used with river rocks, hot rocks in there. Central northern California used lava rocks a lot, but that had been tumbled in the rivers. But the ones that are here, we would probably get the smooth river rocks, and then you heat them up and then you put them into the basket, and you have to keep stirring them [makes a stirring motion with her right hand] into that food. Men probably did the baskets that were, um, that were for fishing, like the fish traps, or your great big, huge granaries,― LK: Oh, yeah. DC: Okay, on that? And they’re made out of the willow. Um, they didn’t make them—northern California, they made ‘em a lot of out of the different plants up there, the branches there. But, almost all of them are made out of willow, you know, because it was pliable to work with. But, that’s your bigger gathering baskets or fish traps, etc., you know. But mainly, it’s mostly the women. But men did do that. We do have men today that are top weavers, um, so, we even have one in our tribe that’s a fantastic weaver [chuckles]. LK: So, it’s a form of functional art. I mean, ‘cuz it is a form of art. That’s what— DC: Well, it didn’t become a form of art until it—until I would say, after contact— LK: Right. DC: —because it was a utility that we had to use, you know. It was something. LK: Right. It was functional. DC: Yeah, and I say, you know, when pots and pans came out, I, I would have been one that threw the baskets away. [laughs] Let’s use a pot, too, you know. LK: [laughs] DC: It’s just like when you gather your foods, you know. I gather the acorn and I make that wiiwish, we call it, the acorn mush. I use a processor to crack all my—you know, to mix it up, you know, and get the nuts, ground it down. You know, if you ever see these, um,—how can I say these—we call them gathering, gathering spots or metates are these big rocks that have the holes in them—the grinding area, they call ‘em grinding stones, grinding— Can you imagine the woman that’s sitting there, or a child, or whatever, pounding acorn to get a meal out of it, you know, to get it real fine like a flour. And, and how long they pound it up there to get those holes in there. How old! You can just tell the age of the—by looking at these grinding areas, or 18 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 grinding rocks that you see, how, how hard they must have done it, so it just—it didn’t happen overnight, to make those holes, you know, in those rocks. It had to be― LK: Right. DC: [gesturing in a pounding motion] ―years and years of processing. And, uh, I’ve tried it. We have two in our backyard, and I didn’t last five minutes. Raising that rock, that pestle, over my head and pounding the acorn, okay? I mean, I couldn’t, after that, I couldn’t raise my hand after five minutes, or even three minutes. My mom was laughing at me out there― LK: [chuckles] DC: ―you know, and I said “Our women must have had—the women must have had shoulders and— LK: Strong arms. DC: —biceps, strong arms, to do that, daily, every day, to get the acorn to get it ready for the mush because that was a staple for the people, you know, because the acorn—wiiwish, we call it—or the, um, what do they call it, with the Kumeyaay, um—we call it wiiwish, they call it, um, okay, I’ve got to think about it. I know it starts with an ‘s.’ But anyway, um, everyday. Because, see, that’s 100% protein. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The acorn is 100% protein. So, it was a staple and it was also a replacement for when they didn’t have any meat, you know, so it was always used. So, when these processors came through, they said “Diania, how come you don’t do it the traditional way?” I said “Uh-uh” [shaking her head] I said “my ancestors would have popped in that, those electrical things to plug in, they would have used it too.” I said “There’s no way I’m going to go out there and you know, [she and Linda start laughing] and pound.” I mean it’s kind of like a joke but it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s—you know, you know, when progress comes, I’m sure they, they would have—they wouldn’t have stayed with their old ways. That’s how I look at it. [chuckles] LK: Circling back, you mentioned a few institutions like Cal State San Marcos, The Discovery Center in Carlsbad, CIBA, and you’re part of the Pesticide― DC: Oh, Tribal― LK: ―with the National Parks? DC: Well, I belong also to the Tribal Pesticide Program Council through EPA. And that’s because of the pesticides and insecticides and stuff that effect our, our plants. A lot of people don’t realize that, when they see our traditional plants, they think they’re weeds. LK: Oh. DC: And they’ll spray them. Or also, that, um―there’s drifts that happen and if you have native plants that are growing near there, and you’re not aware of the native plants that are there, and if 19 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 how they’re spraying, and if the wind comes up [she makes a “whoosh” sound, and waves her hand in a broad sweep to indicate wind over field], the drift will go over there. There’s no signs that tell you that “Hey, we’re going to be spraying today!” LK: Mm-hmm. DC: County doesn’t even tell you that, I mean, unless they come around, you know. The mosquitoes, like in Central California, Sacramento, they post it, because with all those rice fields that they have up there, they have to. They have to do that, spraying for the mosquitoes. And they do it by helicopter. And I’ve been up there when they’ve done that, and they’ve got notices all over―“Shut Your Windows”, “Shut Your House”, “Stay in Your House Between This Hour and This Hour”― because they’re coming in and just sprayin’ and it goes all over your cars, etc., out there. In the University of Davis, Woodland, in that area. So, but they don’t do that too much down here, okay. So, when you don’t know about it, and then you see the plants and you’re going to go through it, you don’t know if it’s been sprayed or anything, or drifted on. And then you pick it, and then you get it, and you put it in your mouth, or whatever, you smell it to see if it is, you get hit. And I’ve had, that’s how I got into pesticides. I went to pick a plant that I thought that the only way you can identify it is to smell it, so I popped it [gestures breaking a stem open] like you know you see you pop it, and I stuffed it up one nostril and within five minutes my whole side of my face went red [gestures a swipe across right side of her face]. Rushed in to Rincon Indian Health Center. They said “Diania, what did you do?” I says “okay, this is where I was at.” And, I had a chemical reaction, that it was sprayed, that it somehow got sprayed. And so I was on―the first time I got steroids, and shot with steroids and it’s five-four-three-two-one [gestures counting on fingers], you know, you’re taking all those pills, five days. Found out that the golf courses are the worst [chuckles] people, or development, or whatever, that use herbicides, pesticides, insecticides, any type of your “cides” they said, because they want to keep their grass green and they want to keep their flowers beautiful and colorful. They don’t want any rodents. They don’t want anything upsetting that golf course out there. And if you have any native plants that are near there, uh, they’re probably going to get hit with that type of thing. And the golf course is another one that doesn’t tell you that they’re spraying. I don’t, I’ve never gone by a golf course that said “Hey, we’re spraying today. There’s a sign.” And I worry about the people that are out there golfing, okay. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, and I love to watch golf. Don’t get me wrong. I mean, I enjoy, I’m not a golfer but I love watching the Masters and stuff. And it goes through my head, when these guys are out there, and the women, you know, and they’re walking in it, but you don’t know if they’ve been told about the spraying, or you know, if they have an asthma thing, or, or something like that. So what happened was that I got into pesticide with CIBA. [chuckles, and reaches to her left for a brochure] So then I was working, we worked with a brochure [laughs, and shows for the camera a brochure, then reads the front of it] they call, it’s called “Pesticides: What Basket Weavers Should Know.” But, this doesn’t just tell you for basket weavers. It’s for everybody― LK: Mm-hmm. 20 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: ―okay? And the contact people [flips the brochure over, and points to the back side of the brochure] like for here in Southern California, you’ve got the contact if you’ve had this. It just tells you what to look for on native plants, if they look dead, if they’re doing anything. [opens brochure and looks inside] I’m trying to get EPA right now to try to start making us some more of these, but if I have some more, [turns the inside of the brochure to face the camera] like if I gave you, you know, some handouts that you could make your own, you know. They don’t have to be in color. [closes brochure, but still holds it up] But, it’s just an awareness about pesticides when you’re out there. And it, you don’t have to be gathering. You can just be taking a trail ride out there, or hiking. Your animals could come back with pesticides or insecticides on them, and then you have your kids rubbing them [gestures petting an animal], and playing with them, and hugging them, and then you wonder also why your child is coming out with a rash. Why are they coughing? Why are they sneezing? And so, most of the time, it’s some type of spraying and it’s out there. So I sit on that, that, across the United States, we’ve got all the tribes. But the bigger tribes like the, your Black Feet and your Crow, etc. you know, they, they lease their land, because they’ve got millions of acres on their reservations. So they lease their lands to Montanyo [sounds unsure]. One of that does soy beans, and corn, and all these big guys. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But they need to have the pesticides, but they’re trying to regulate it more so especially on native ground or Indian country, because, um, they don’t want to be digesting it. They don’t want this corn and everything that is going out to the public to be digested, because if you go on to a lot of your other farms and stuff like this, they’re not telling you what the pest―what is being used. But the, in the Indian country, they want to make sure it’s safe. They don’t want to get sick. They don’t want their own families to get sick. So, it’s a big political thing. But what had happened in northern California, how this—how CIBA became involved in the 90s, about ’93, is that the weavers in northern California get their―they use a lot of roots. LK: Mmm— DC: And they use a lot of willow roots. So, during the―on the rivers of northern California, they go high. But when they recede down, that’s when the roots stick out from the, from the banks where all the willow trees are growing. And so they go into the water, and they’re picking from the banks of the river, all the roots coming out [gesturing pulling something towards her]. LK: Uh-huh. DC: Okay? When you kind of think of, when the water is high [gestures raising up as in water level], this is where the roots are going. They’re going to get water for the, for the trees. Well, industry up nor―up, up river, where they call, where they, where it is coming down into the river, they were dumping chemicals into the water— LK: Hmmm— DC: —as a dump. You’re talking about the lumber mills, some of the uh, other industrial things are doing it. That’s what was stuck in the salmon, also. And so the weavers were doing it. Then 21 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 all of a sudden they were finding their elders the weavers were getting cancer around their mouth [gesturing around her mouth] LK: Oh, no. DC: And they were getting cancer inside. They were losing their teeth [pointing at her teeth]. And they couldn’t figure out why. Because it wasn’t just happening to just one tribe. It was happening to all the ones that, that were gathering, you know. You’re talking the Pomo, the Uroquois, the Hupas, the Kuroks. All the ones that use this type of material. And so in ’93, they found out that, they had EPA come out. They had this whole thing. They wrote a paper on it, a risk assessment, and found out that it was chemicals in the water when they tested the waters on these big ones. And so that started, for CIBA anyway, with the pesticides— LK: Huh. DC: —to get on there, to be more sort of a―― how can I― a public, you know, awareness. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You can only educate. You can’t stop it. You can only, you know. That’s why you have all these, um, lawsuits right now, happening in northern California and their waters. Look at the salmon. What’s happening, not just in California, but in Oregon and Washington with― because of the chemicals. Uh, you can’t, sometimes you can’t even eat, you know, some of that salmon because they can’t even go upstream, because when they come upstream, they come back sick. And the worst one is in Alaska. LK: Right. DC: See, people don’t want to hear about Alaska. But everything that we use down here in, in, in the “mainland” they call it, the chemicals, anything, okay, it all goes into our atmosphere, right? [points upward with both hands]. I mean, you spray, and it’s going to go up. LK: Yep. DC: Okay, when it goes up, where does it go? It goes to the Poles. [gestures as if touching top and bottom of a globe] North Pole, north pole is getting it mostly. South Pole is not as much, because they don’t get that drift like they did. But what it did, it collects up here [circles her hand in a rotating motion] in the atmosphere, and what it is, over Alaska in the Arctic area. That’s why it’s cleaning out too. Because it’s just going around, all these chemicals. It, it forms a warmth and a heat. And that why, that’s what’s, and now when it rains up there, it drops down [laughs, and gestures as if something is falling] into their land and into their trees, and into their plants, and they’re contaminated. And it’s all because of us down here, meaning, I’m saying “us”, mainland and you know, uh, North, Central, South America, all of us, you know, Europe, that using all these different chemicals and things like this, and drifts up [raises her hands up], collects in that atmosphere up there [circles in the air with her left hand], goes to the North Pole. It’s going around and around. It rains, or whatever, and it comes down, [indicates rain coming down, with both hands] and that’s why Alaska is having all those problems right now with their 22 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 food [gestures as if counting on her left hand], climate change, the heating, etc. And, uh, a lot of it is the use of chemicals and pesticides. LK: Well, what started out as a― DC: [chuckles] LK: ―lessons in patience for you― DC: [bursts out laughing] LK: You’ve expanded your knowledge to all aspects of basketry and, and working with other organizations. So, I know those aren’t the only ones you work with, though, and I can list a couple just to jog your memory. I know you work with Camp Pendleton. DC: Oh, well yeah, well, Camp Pendleton is― LK: And Daly Ranch. DC: Daly Ranch. Well, Daly Ranch was because [sighs] I went to, I went to be a docent. Okay? Because I had to find something to do after, you know, I, and that I, before I had my surgery, I became a docent, and I wanted to do the trails. Okay? The native trails. But when I had, after my surgery, I couldn’t do the walking anymore. And so they did have a small “Indian program” you know, on there. And one of the rangers I, you know, I, I love him dearly, he’s still there, we worked together, he was the one that was doing the Native American aspect of the Daly Ranch, what they would give to the public and school district. Fifteen minutes [gestures making air quotes] is all he would have. So I went through his training, on the docents, and he brought in a native person from souther―from Kumeyaay territory, I think, a weaver. I can’t think who the weaver is now. She did a display and stuff. And so Ranger Robert, I think I mentioned him, he did a lot, because of his sons were in Boy Scouts, you know, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Eagle Scouts, and they had to do a lot of the native areas of, on there. So he made a lot of the artifacts that the Daly Ranch uses and I use right now for exhibit. And he learned about the plants, and the foods, etc. Well, he went to serve wiiwish, acorn. And when he served it, it was great. And I just went “What?”, you know. And it, it was [gesturing as if saying ‘no’ with her fingers] I don’t know. And I’m going asking “How did you do this?” Well, he used the acorn, but he didn’t use the acorns that we normally would use. He used a different type of acorn. And how he fixed it, or whatever. And so, when we had our barbeque when we graduated from the docent class, I went home [laughs] and I made the ______________. This is supposed to look like, okay, you know, our wiiwish does that. And he says “well, teach me!” So we started working together. Then they asked me if I would come in and do the native American part, you know, with the Daly Ranch. Daly Ranch through the 7th graders and the whole school district, in Escondido School District, they run the 7th graders through there for 6 weeks, in the Daly Ranch, twice a week, like a Tuesday and a Wednesday, from 8 o’clock until 2. And we do about two hundred some a day. LK: Wow! DC: I’m the native American part of it, and they do plants, and then they do insects, and then they do the large predators, you know, and then they, the tricks. But, I’m the native American 23 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 portion of it. It started out as 15 minutes, and now all of a sudden, now I’m doing about 35 minutes, and just expanding it— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —to get them knowing that this was our first―you know, Daly Ranch is on the, one the land of native peoples. There’s, there’s areas out there on Daly Ranch that the public can’t see, that know that they’re―they live there. They have artifacts, etc., on that. So, um, and I got asked to, to do that. It’s all voluntarily. If I get paid from anything for doing that―I’ve been doing that going on 16 years now―it’s a surprise for me, because they do it through grants. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: I started out, like I said, volunteering, and it had expanded it to bigger working with Fred Wood, who’s a retired school teacher, you know, from a junior high, 8th grade. And I started with my cousin, Kathy Wallace, who’s our story teller now, and her son Brandon―he was about 9 or 10 years old―we would do it together. Well, it got to a point to where she expanded out [gestures expansion thrusting her right hand out away from her], you know, he got older. And so, I had Teeter Romero used to come down for me and help me, from San Juan Capistrano. And then, also now, I got it for myself and it’s hard to get people to want to take it over. Because the first question they ask “Well, how much do you get?” And I says “Nope.” I says “I can’t guarantee you anything on that. If I get paid, it’s a surprise for me at the end of the six weeks, depending on how much the grant through—It’s through a grant, that they get― LK: Right. DC: ―that. That’s to the Friends of the Daly Ranch. Even though the Daly Ranch is owned by the city of Escondido, this Friends of the Daly Ranch and the docents do it because of they want to. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The only ones that really get paid on there is the rangers, because they’re employees of the city of Escondido. LK: Right. DC: And uh― LK: But that’s not the only institution that you do work. You, you go to elementary schools and― DC: Well, yeah, I have. I did elementary schools. I think, you know, we do―like San Elijo. We’ve been doing that for seven years, and that’s during that one basket that I just showed you, with the Cherokee style. We do third graders there. [sighs] Before they built that new elementary school, we were doing anywhere from 2 to 300 hundred a day, in well, one day. We had it for 35 minutes, at 70, at the time. And then, because they had a program going. Kathy would be the story teller. They had adobe making. They had―and so these children are going [gestures in a 24 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 round circle with her right hand] all day, every half hour they’re going to another, another thing. I would have four weavers come in to help me. And then we would give a quick 10-minutes, 5minute thing with parent volunteers, to come in and help to, to and I think you’ve even done it before, [chuckles] to just help these students. And so you’d have all these third graders in one room, sittin’ on the floor, on these things, ten, ten to a circle so I know it’s seventy, because we had seventy cir―seven circles in there. We’d done seventy at the time, forty-five at the time, and then within thirty-five minutes, you know, they’re done. If they didn’t finish this basket [holds up small basket which can fit in the palm of her hand] in their time, then they would take them with them and complete it in their ar—in their art department students. So we’ve been doing that for quite a while. I’ve done the thing with Cal State San Marcos with their students up there, giving the demonstrations, etc., given a talk. And then even teaching the students, you know, the basketry. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Same thing with the senior center, in El Corazon [gestures to Linda]. LK: El Corazon. DC: We just did that for three days, and they really enjoyed it. LK: We cannot leave out one other entity, which was the Mission— DC: —Oh! LK: —San Luis Rey. How could we forget that. DC: [laughs] You know, she’s sees, she’s getting me into the basketry thing, here. Um, San Luis Rey—people don’t understand. San Luis Rey is one of the missions here that is not part of the diocese, or owned by the Catholic Church, per se. They’re owned by the Franciscan order of the Catholic Church. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Or, errr, I’m not—I’m a Catholic, but I’m not that kind. I’m not a practicing Catholic. Let’s put it that way. But, um, so they’re owned by the Franciscans. San Luis Rey, Santa Barbara, and there’s one more, and I’m going to better learn that one too because there’s three missions in the state of California that are not part of the “Catholic.” San Juan Capistrano is part of the Orange County diocese. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And they bring in the most money for the missions in the state of California. San Juan Capistrano does, because you’ve got to pay to get in, you know, and everything else. But anyway. The friars—well, they’re not—they’re friars—the Franciscan order, um, are there, at the San Luis Rey Mission. You don’t know that they’re there, because they’re not really public other than when you see ‘em walking around in their brown robes. They have a retreat there. They live there. They study there. They go through their schooling, sometimes, there at the San Luis Rey Mission. And I was notified by Gwen, the director, and Helena, whose at the museum, that they 25 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 were having a retreat there. And they wanted a activity, and so Gwen says “Contact Diania, and see if they want to do a basketry.” Well, Father David, or Brother David—he’s up at Santa Barbara now—he used to be here at San Luis Rey, and my brother used to work with him. And he knew I did baskets. That’s why he probably agreed. But these Franciscans were coming from all over the world. They weren’t just coming from the United States. They were coming as novices; ones that are almost going to graduate into their order; some that were graduated already into the order; some that were retiring from the order. Some they didn’t speak English. And, um, there was forty, almost fifty of them. LK: Forty-six. DC: Forty-six of them, and they were there for a week [chuckles] And they asked “Diania, would you mind doing, you know, a demonstration and talking about the basketry, or people, etc.?” My brother videoed it, you know, and I haven’t really even seen it yet. I think he gave you a copy, right? LK: It’s great. DC: Okay. I have to give Roberta—not Roberta, but Reinette and Ella Sue, I think, also. But, um, I says “Okay, I need four weavers, and uh, to do this.” And we did that in the back of the mission, and here I was expecting—when we were setting up, all of us were expecting—there’s Linda Kallas, Ella Sue Snyder (she’s a Acjachemen), Reinette (I can’t pronounce her last name. My cousin—Reinette Omah, Olvera, but I can’t pro—) LK: Olvera. DC: Yeah, but she goes by that Italian married— LK: Contreras. DC: No, no. It starts with an “A” [indicates a letter “A” as if writing in the air]. Anyway. LK: Okay. DC: And you, and me, okay. Linda was—Linda, who was going to interview me, she goes “Me?” and I says “Oh yeah. You know how to do these! You’ve been sittin’ with us for a while. You can come in here.” And we’re going to do the Cherokee style basket. I just gave a talk about our traditional materials, etc. So, we get all set up and here come these men, you know, coming through. You know, I, I was expecting them to come into—with their robes on. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, their brown robes. That’s what I was expecting. Here these men come in. They’re in shorts. They got T-shirts on that say “Surf’s Up!” you know. All these different things coming home with these hats, sandals, barefoot, you know. I mean, they’re coming from the retreat area, you know, tennis shoes on, and all different ages. And it was interesting because I’m going “Whoa, okay.” You would have, you would have put them on the street. You would not have known that they were friars, okay. And, uh, like I said, all ages. They had a—we had a 26 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 good time, laughing, etc. Like I said, we do have that, um, if you knew my brother did with that. They were all anxious. They made beautiful baskets. [laughs] LK: They were so impressed with you, and um— DC: You know. LK: They were so grateful and so full of gratitude for learning that skill— DC: Yeah. Well, we took a lot— LK: They really enjoyed it. DC: Well, we took a picture, a group picture, at the end and then we had all their baskets on top of that one rocker area. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And you can see that these baskets—[turning to her left, and reaching for something] I showed you this [holds up the little basket that she showed previously in the interview] and this is mine. But that doesn’t mean that you’re going to make the same thing like this. Your basket is, is going to be completely different. Even though they start out the same, your basket will be with what you create with your hands. [puts down basket] And so that’s what they were really impressed with, because we had some beautiful baskets. You had some real nice round ones [gestures a round object]. You had flat ones [gestures flat object]. You had long ones [gestures a tall object] and they just had a good time. LK: They cherished them, right? DC: Oh, it was a—it was—it was—it was rewarding, you know, on that. But that’s what happens when we do that. We did it with the seniors— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —out there, and they all thought that they were going to be making their own little ba— baskets that we showed them. And then when they finally was looking at it, even the men there, you know, everything was different. And so, that’s what I enjoyed about the baskets. Even with the kids, you know, they don’t— No two baskets are alike. LK: Exactly. And, expanding on that, we have the elementary school named Pablo Tac after a Luiseño native that was educated in the Mission. But also, you’re—you have an opportunity to demonstrate there coming up, correct? DC: Yes, coming up on November 4th, 2022. I’ll be demonstrating and so will Roberta— hopefully Reinette will be there—traditional weaving. We’re not going to be teaching. That’s probably, hopefully coming up next year. LK: Yes. DC: You know, on that. We just had the demonstration also at Camp Pendleton. 27 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, there. I’m a docent for the Santa Margarita Ranch and Lost Forest Ranch, docent there at Camp Pendleton. But I’ve been working with the Archaeology department since, uh, ugh, ‘90s with Stan Berryman and then Danielle [Page], and now Kelly Bracken is in charge of it so—. Because we have a lot of sites there on ran—on Camp Pendleton. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: People don’t realize it, that we’ve got over 600 some building sites there, and sites, and sacred sites, etc., on Camp Pendleton, so we’re kept close with the—they’re kept close with the different tribes. And since I’m the weaver in the native plants, I have a different aspect of it. I try to make that, if the plants are out there, please, you know, don’t do this with them, and stuff. So, they notify us that if we have native plants there, do you want us to move them. Do you want to collect them, etc. They do have a native garden there that we do collect the deer grass from, which is up there by the pavilion, behind the new hospital. Um, that way I know they’re not being sprayed, when we go there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: We just did elderberry tree, um, [chuckles] gathering from the berries, and I made some for your, for you for your husband. I thought I was making jelly, and it ended up being syrup. But he likes, he loves it, you know, ‘cuz we gathered there at Camp Pendleton, because [chuckles again], because then I know that, um, also those aren’t being sprayed. And, so there’s different areas by Camp Pendleton. Plus, with the cultural, okay. And why I started with the, the new General, the Commander-in-Chief, there, at –I can’t think of it. I just—I worked with her, and um, was—a— how?—docent there for the Santa Margarita Ranch. They were going to be the ones dealing with the party. She had her fiesta there, a couple weeks ago. And, um, I didn’t want to just be the docent dressed in the—how can I say this?— We dressed in this Spanish shawl. I don’t know if you’ve seen the docents from center. [gestures to someone other than Linda Kallas, seated to her left] You’ve been there, right? And, uh—Tanis. And, uh, we have that costume [still looking to the other person] or the regalia that they use. I’m comin’ in, because I put these on [hold up her necklace] and I’m, you know, trying to keep the Native American thing going there. And you heard me [points to person off camera, and continues to talk to him/her] this last meeting, you know, and Larry was over here [points to opposite direction, and laughs]. Uh, it’s that, uh, react? That we’ve forgotten, you know, on that. And they do think—they kind of forget us. But anyway, and so I says [still talking to the person off camera] “I’m not going to be a docent. I just—can I come in and do traditional weaving, you know, with our people,” with her. And she just said [shaking her head]—she says “heck yes, please, let’s come in” and stuff. So, um, I had the drapes on there. I wasn’t going to go San Luis Rey Band because we were all San Luis Rey Band members that were going to do this traditional weaving demonstration. But we’re all CIBA members also. So, I used this California Basket weavers —uh, weaving drape on our table. They put us up there, you know, with the rest of them, and, um, I had Mark, who is our weaver, one of our top weavers for our tribe. He had—he was demonstrating his baskets. We were all doing a demonstration, and, and appreciating that, you know, on there. That’s the last 28 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 thing we did on the traditional, you know, weaving thing with Camp Pendleton. Then we’re going to do this one November 4. LK: And then the Jubilation of the Valley Festival? DC: Oh yeah, we’re going to have, coming up in November— LK: —the Luiseño Day. Mm-hmm— DC: —Spirit of the Valley— LK: —Spirit of the Valley. DC: —with Studio Ace. And we’re going to be doing baskets there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And I’m going to be doing teaching the Cherokee style— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —okay? It’s not gonna—it’s not Luiseño style. And so we’re going to be doing, uh, [sighs] all day [laughs]— LK: And you’ve been invited— DC: —from 11 to 3. LK: —to do basket weaving at a senior dance at the— DC: Aw, come on now, [gestures pushing away from herself with her right hand] I know. LK: [laughs] DC: It’s just a—thank you, Linda. Um, that’s December 15th. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And that’s coming in because of the senior center over there. That’s just an activity they wanted us to do. Plus, we do basket traditional weaving in front of the Mission, hopefully, every 4th Sunday of the month. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But sometimes we don’t, because we have other things to do. So it’s almost a contact— they—a website, or contact one of us to do that. We do it at Rancho Guajome, but we’ll kind of travel with our weaving person. Um, one of the things I want to say is that I do get feedback sometimes from our own Indian people—“why are you in front of the Mission, Diania?” okay, you know. Because they see a pictures of the background where we’re weaving, and, um—“why are you doing it on the, on the Mission grounds?” I mean, you have this animosity with some of our people that have gone through the Mission system and their ancestors were really treated bad, etc. I’m not going to say the missions were the best things that happened to the indigenous 29 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 people in the state of California, or even in the other missionaries throughout the, throughout the different tribal people— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —in Indian country. But, I’m trying to tell them “I’ll let you know. I’m not there to, to praise the Mission. Don’t get me wrong, okay? I have my aspects with them, too, but I’m there— we’re there, really, to respect and honor our ancestors that are buried there.” I’ve got a lot of family that’s buried there in that old cemetery. I know our ancestors had built that mission and helped it. We’ve got a lot of ancestors that are buried in those grounds that aren’t in the cemeteries. When you had your epidemics, the pox, the small pox epidemic— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —there’s a lot of burials in, on those grounds at the Mission that had to do multiple burials real fast. So, we’re there honoring our people. I’m not there to honor the Mission. And, I have to let them know that. I mean, don’t get me wrong. I was raised with the Catholic there. My mom went to school there. My great-grandfather, he was part, you know. Every Sunday it seemed like the Father was always there in his house at the ranch there in the valley, having dinner. But I don’t really have that, um, hatred, or whatever you want to call it— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —to the Mission system. Yes, they know that they’ve done wrong. My brother and I sit on the committee for the 225 anniversary that’s coming up, honoring San Luis Rey Mission. I’m there on it, and so is he, to make sure the indigenous people aren’t forgotten. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They’ve got to have something that’s, that’s still representing, you know, them with the ethnic group. We have our powwow there that’s been there for 23 years, you know. We just haven’t had it since Covid. And that’s another thing that’s on the Mission grounds. You have some of the indigenous people who will not come to our powwow because it’s on Indi—on mission grounds. But, to me, that’s personal for them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The Mission has not been at a controversy for us. Yes, we know some of our ancestors were treated wrong, you know. You can walk in that Mission, and, um, you can see different things that, um, and the stories you hear, you know, and the longondria <sic> that’s going down there, where they had to do the washing and stuff. You’ve got Pablo Tac. You know, he came from that Mission, and was taught, who can, you know, going back to Barcelona, you know, and Rome also, and is buried over there, and died. But, um, you—we—how can I say this? San Luis Rey Mission, they, the Luiseños around the Mission San Luis Rey weren’t as— LK: It was a— DC: —progressive as 30 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: —Luiseño village, correct? DC: Yes, it was a Luiseño village there, but they didn’t attempt to burn it down like the Kumeyaay did, at the old—in San Diego. They burned that mission down three times [holds up three fingers]. But it comes with people, and how they took it, um, as a, as a rewards system, or whatever. Okay? They were fed! Can you imagine? I mean, ee were nomads and gatherers and movers. Meaning nomadic, it’s not like we moved all over [gestures in a sweeping motion]. It was like we went from ocean to the mountains [points from right to left, indicating movement from west to east] to gather and to the desert [points forward]. You see what I’m saying. As being nomadic. We didn’t have “a permanent” village. We knew what village we came from, but if we had to go, you had people that probably stayed there, the elders, and then the rest went out to gather. But we weren’t a warring people. Sure, we probably fought with the Kumeyaay and any others that came through. But with the Kumeyaay people, they were warring people. Now, they came from the, from the Colorado area. I mean, you’re looking at warriors, you know, came across, and when they were doing that with the missions and stuff, you know, you—they—it was on their land. They, they didn’t like it. They, you know, they, and they, to me, with San Diego Mission, um, and you read the history on that, it, it was, it was harsh. Where here, Father Peri — 'cuz remember, San Luis Rey was the 19th mission. It was the one that—it was at almost the end that it was built. Okay? And San Luis Capistrano really was the 2nd one. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then they come around there [circles her arm] and they built San Luis Rey, 19-what, a number 19, in 1798. Okay? So, you’re looking at all these other missions that were built way before that. Father Peri, he—his system was more with the native people. Yes, you could come, but he let ‘em build around him, also. But it was not the Fathers that were chased in the mission, the Indians. It was the soldiers at the—that’s who were supposedly protecting the Fathers. They were the ones that went out and chased the Indians down. They were the ones that did the punishments, when they had their, their, their soldiers—the ones that were in charge—they took it to their head, you know, I mean, to do the punishment, because as far as native indigenous people were below the Mexican people. You had the Indians [gestures making layers, indicating layers of hierarchy], then you had the Mexicans, the Spaniards, you understand, that, that— LK: Were higher, you know. DC: —hierarchy. So, um, I don’t have that too much on there, you know, with that. Everybody has their own. I have it because the missions only because they kept ‘em down [gestures downward with her right hand], and they did use ‘em—I wouldn’t—I don’t use the word slave, but they—I guess, slave labor. They were the laborers, where else they really didn’t—they didn’t get paid. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, on there. And then when the missions were done, and the secularization, when they did that, they were lost. They cried, you know. I mean, they were starving, because of that—and then what had happened, the ranchers got us here, Picos, the Marrons, the Couts, all of 31 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 the rest of them—they went and destroyed the mission. They were, they were tearing it apart. They were taking the beams. They were taking all the statues. They were taking the different things, and using them to build. You know, you get some of these ranchers, they have some of the beams on that are from—that are from the Mission. The artifacts. LK: Wild. DC: You know. But you don’t hear that side of the story. That’s why at Camp Pendleton and Rancho Santa Margarita and them, when it, they hid the stories and that—“Come on, you guys, you know. Pico wasn’t the best guy.” LK: Mm-hmm. DC: He, he was really one of those really against the Indians. LK: So, in addition to your passion and your education with the basketry, you are like a historian of your people, and the area, and I see that you brought some other materials. Is there anything you want share? DC: [again reaching to the left] Well, one of the things is that, uh, okay, and I know that for you, you’re trying to do this. I did study the language [holds up some leaves of paper], but since I didn’t—wasn’t able to have—speak to somebody, I went through the Pechanga — LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —and they sent me to Cal State—I mean, to Riverside, also to the international classes that was there. But since I didn’t have anybody to communicate with [gestures as if transmitting words to another person], it was hard for me. I can read it, and I can probably understand it when they’re—when they start talking to me, you know— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —get the words right. But I’m fortunate that I did have that. But this is one [looks at paper] of the things that I’m going to share—I’m going to be sharing this at the, uh, Spirit of the Valley, once they get over there. But it’s like this one here, okay? [turns paper toward Linda. The paper is laminated, and has a colored drawing of a deer, with the word ‘şúukat’] You hear that one What’s that? LK: Soosh-kah? Soo-kah— DC: Soos-kwaht, okay? LK: Soos-kwaht. DC: Deer. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Okay. I’m just going to be doing that. This is for the children. Ishwoot? [holds up a laminated drawing of a wolf with word ‘ˈíswut’] What’s that? Ishwoot. 32 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: That is a wolf. DC: Yeah, wolf. Okay? And then this is something that I use with kids [holds up a laminated drawing of a grasshopper with word ‘wiˈét’]. Whee-uht. LK: Grasshopper. DC: Or cricket. LK: Or cricket. DC: Yeah. Whee-uht. And so, you see in these names—why I use these, because you see in these names, being with the native kids now, that they’re being named this. [holds up a laminated drawing of a bear with word ‘húnwut’] LK: Hunwhat. DC: Hunwhat. LK: It’s a bear. DC: It’s a bear. Children are being named that now, with these, especially with these names here, with their—for the children. They’re proud of being called ‘hun-what.’ They’re proud of being called ‘soos-kwaht,’ called—proud of being called ‘whee-uht,’ you know, instead of just being called “cricket,” you know, on there. And so that was one of the things that I found I have been proud to do, you know, on that. And then, also, you have “Tuk-woot” [holds up a laminated drawing of a cougar with word ‘túˈkwet’]. Who is this? LK: A cougar or mountain lion. DC: It’s a cougar, okay? LK: Cougar? DC: You have ‘tuk-woot’ village, ‘tuk-woot’ village, ‘tuk-woot’ court, at Cal State San Marcos! LK: Yes, that’s right! DC: Okay? “Aush-woot?” [holds up a laminated drawing of a hawk with word ‘áşwut’] I know that’s not a [unintelligible] of an eagle, but that’s an ‘aush-woot.’ The eagle. LK: The eagle. DC: Yeah. And these are words that, um, are the alphabet, pretty long, you know, and considered more than 26 letters, that are important to the kids because they can identify with them. You know. I also have a coloring book, and you know, 1-2-3 and stuff like that I’m sharing. But one of these [reaches to the left for something else] that I want to end with, if you don’t mind, is that if, um, [sighs] in 2004, this is the Heritage Keepers [holds up a magazine entitled “Heritage Keepers”]. This is a magazine coming from the Ramon Learning Center [reads back of magazine] 33 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: Hmmm. DC: Okay. And, um, it’s still going on from Banning, California. And I wrote a poem [opening magazine, and finding page where poem is printed], um, and I wanted to read it and share it with you. Is that okay? LK: Yes! I would love that. DC: Okay. It’s that, um, I wrote this poem when I was doing the—learning the Luiseño language, and I had to write this poem because I was, um, trying to pull the words out [gestures as if churning things over in her head] of my head that I knew. And where I was at—it was Teeter Romero and I were up in Rainbow, up there by north of us here. And we were going to go out there to gather Juncus in Gomez Creek area, which is behind Riamb—Rainbow. You gotta go up the mountain. And when we were up there at the top of the hill—it was early in the morning, and we stopped because we looked out towards the valley towards the ocean [points to the left] and that morning it was clear. You can—you could—you could see the, see the ocean shining clear at the, at the other end, which is really not— [shakes her head]. But then you saw El Moro Kukutuk, okay? That’s another story. One day you might have to say it, but Kutukutuk too, is part of our creation story. And you can see that mound really clearly, with the ocean in the background, shimmering, and that mound there in the valley near Camp Pendleton, and Bonsall and Fallbrook area. In this part of our creation story, I got these things in my head as I’m looking at it, and I thought of our people. Because of the creation story, of trying to be saved. They were, they—we had the flood, also, in our creation story. And all I could think of, and was watching it, seeing the ocean shimmering, seeing that mound and thinking of “Oh my God, that’s what came up. The ocean came up.” And the people were running, because the water was coming in and coming in, and they had nothing to save ‘em. And the people from Pechanga were up there on their high point [points up with left hand], which is up there by Rainbow. If you ever go by Pechanga on the back way you’ll see the big hill that’s up there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That’s one of their lookouts, and I don’t know that there—the name of it, but it’s a point. And they were looking at the people, you know, the Luiseño people in the valley, running. And all they could do was keep singing. Now I don’t—I have the words to that song, that they had— that they started there. But, I don’t have that with me right now. But they were singing up there to hopefully save their people. They’re crying for them, and trying to save, save their people. Well, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this mound comes up. And so they were watching their people swimming towards it, and running towards it. And this mound kept coming up, and that’s more—El Moro Hill, or Kuktuk. That is a volcano cone. People don’t realize that, you know, we do have volcanic areas— [laughs] LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —in this area. And that’s a volcano cone that came up and our people in that valley, meaning my ancestors, okay—were saved. They were able to go on to Tuktuk, El Moro Hill, and 34 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 come up, and go up there. You can visit that here—uh, that mound or that little knoll or dell, if you want to call it. It’s on Indian Rock Road. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s Sleeping Indian Rock. It’s Sleeping Indian Road [scratches head] right there. Part of it’s on Camp Pendleton. Part of it’s in Fallbrook. And, part of it is owned by the County of San Diego. You can’t build on it. You can build on—near it, but you can’t build on the Camp Pendleton side, because that’s a blind—ammunition dump. And the Navy owns it. Fallbrook owns a third of it, and San Diego County owns a third. There’s a trail that you can go up on there, if you want to visit it and go, and there’s a hearth on the top that they do celebrations, ceremonies up there. My great-grandmother was born there, at the base of that El Moro Hill. So, yeah, we’ve got history in there, and, you know, our aunt used to tell—my aunt, my great aunt, used to tell stories, you know, about that— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —and they used to go, go there. But what I did was wrote a poem as I was doing, uh, looking at it, and I was thinking, my language is going in my head, but I could only pick out some words that I knew at that time. So it’s called "Naqmayam” and I was saying it—first saying it in Luiseño, then I’ll read it again in English, what it meant. LK: Okay. DC: Okay. It says “Naqmayam. Toonquay qawiinga/noo toowq ‘ataxmi/naqmayam/noo toowq ‘ataxmi heelaqal/‘ataaxum naqmawun! Popuu’uk ponakilvoy/yu’pan heth’aan/no$uun toonavan ‘ataaxum poomoto/naqmayam! Heelaxam!” Now, I usually sing this, I know. It’s just—it’s— it’s—I usually—it sticks after a while, I’m singing it, because I do sing it, at the Mission on All Soul’s Day. [chuckles] So, if you come on All Soul’s Day, on November 2nd, around 6 o’clock, between 6 and 6:30, I’ll be doing it and lighting the candles there, and I’ll be—I can sing it. And why I like to sing it, it’s sometimes I can hear my voice [gestures to her right ear], it bounces off the mission wall. It scared me the first time that it happened— LK: [chuckles] DC: —because I never had an echo come back like that. And, anyway, “naqmayam” means “listen.” “Toonquay qawiinga” means “from the rock on the mountain.” Naqmayam. I see the people. I see the people singing. People listen. The door was closed. Again it will open. My heart will weave among the people. Listen and sing. I wasn’t looking at them crying, you know. I was thinking about them singing, and being happy. And the door was closed at one time for us, but it was now opening. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then my heart, at that time, with the weaving, there, my heart will weave among the people. And, um, so it was kind of, you know—and they published it, in that—in that—in there— 35 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: It’s beautiful. DC: —It kind of gives the story of me. This has happened in 2003 [laughs]. And that’s how long ago, with the language. And I’m still trying to bring the language back, you know, I mean, we did it with—for a while when we were together with the Rotary Club. But then again I’m doing it, trying to get it back with people, and with our people, on that. It’s still going on at the Pechanga, with this fantastic Pechanga . I started back with them, way back when, and they started at the preschool. And then, now, they’ve taken it all the way up through their 6th grade there on their reservation at Pechanga. They don’t speak any English in the classes. All their instructors or the teachers have to learn the language. It’s taught in Luiseño. They’ve got an agreement with the school district of Temecula, that they follow them all the way through school, all the way through high school, that they have to release them at least, I don’t know how many times a week, to be brought in and taught their language, to keep it up. LK: That’s wonderful. DC: They take it all the way through high school. But, Pechanga has done really good. Pauma is also―has a class there, you know. Pauma does. Rincon does. Pala, uh, I don’t know if Pala does. But, each one has a different, like a dialect, you know. The only sad thing is when you get politics coming in. I’m just going to let you guys know. Politics is really deep within the tribes, on there, and um, I’m right, you’re wrong, etc. And it’s sad, because we’re all the one people, but that’s the way it goes. You’re born into being an indigenous people, not just for us here in California, but across the United States. You’re born into politics, whether you like it or not. So, um― LK: Well, I just want to close with saying that it’s been an honor and absolute pleasure to interview you and listen to you. I want to acknowledge that you went from accounting to weaving to becoming an educator of your pe―of your tribal background, and also a historian, and I think a big part of your legacy is to keep this out there. And you’re doing it pretty much on your own. It’s not like you have all this, um, Federal money behind you, like the federally recognized tribes, so― DC: We don’t have that [shaking her head] LK: ―you do not have that. You’re not federally recognized. But I just wanted to honor that in you, and thank you so much for allowing me to do this. DC: Okay. LK: No $uun. DC: Noh [bowing her head, and chuckling] I was going to say No $uun Looviq. 36 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 NAQMAYAM TOONQA Y QAWIINGA From the rock on the mountain NOO TOOWQ 'ATAXMI I see the people NAQMAYAM Listen NOO TOOWQ 'ATAXMI HEELAQAL I see the people singing 'ATAAXUM NAQMA WUN! People listen! POPUU'UK PONAKILVOY The door was closed YU'PAN HETH'AAN Again it will open NO$UUN TOONAVAN 'AT AAXUM POOMOTO My heart will weave among the people NAQMAYAM! HEELAXAM! Listen! Sing! Written by Diania L Caudell @2003 37 Transcribed by Melissa Martin � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Caudell, Diania. Interview transcript. October 27, 2022. Description An account of the resource Interview with Diania Caudell focused on her Native American ancestry as well as her past occupation as an accountant. Also included is her implementation of Native American education in the San Juan Capistrano School District and how her back injury led her to become a basket weaver. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. The end of the transcript contains a glossary and a poem written by Caudell in 2003 in the Luiseño language, with English translation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diania Caudell Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Subject The topic of the resource Basket making Education -- Native Americans Luiseño Indians Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Arizona Escondido (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) San Juan Capistrano (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Luiseño Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Diania Caudell License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CaudellDiania _KallasLinda_2022-10-17_transcript.mp4 Art and artists Community history Native American experience North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience