1 10 208 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2c6cd504710fb1dced072f01b75cc905.pdf 4865e6e5c43cf9dd67246ebf360e4f20 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ho Tran, Tony. Interview transcript, April 22, 2023. Description An account of the resource Tony Ho Tran is a Vietnamese American writer in Chicago. In this interview, he talks about his family's immigration story, his childhood as a restaurant kid, and his mother's mixed-race heritage and his search for her father. He also speaks on his search for identity and embracing his Vietnamese heritage as an adult. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tony Ho Tran Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Jennifer Ho Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-22 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Ethnic identity; Vietnam; Amerasians Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Sioux City (Iowa); Vietnam; Chicago (Ill.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tony Ho Tran Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HoTranTony_HoJennifer_2023-04-22_transcription Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0d309fd7d6b5c59874bee1336f7dfe3a.pdf af146d0003528d11d9001e3b8dc2c63b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vo, Amy. Interview transcript, November 10, 2022. Description An account of the resource Amy Vo is an archivist in New Jersey. In this interview, she shares her experiences growing up in cities and countries around the world and her experiences being the only Vietnamese American person in these places. She also reflects on her heritage and what it means to be in community with other Vietnamese people. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Vo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Jennifer Ho Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-10 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Indonesia; Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam); Vinh Long (Province); Hanoi (Vietnam); Saigon (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Amy Vo Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10_transcript Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/84ae61e13edb5b77f7c9e0f20e8a3871.pdf b228deb516bbe3d45948b5f1f70a4926 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ho, Jennifer. Interview transcript, November 16, 2022. Description An account of the resource Jennifer Ho is an archivist in San Diego. In this interview, she speaks on her relationships with her family members, their immigration stories and her reflections on Vietnamese heritage and identity in the United States. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennifer Ho Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Amy Vo Jennifer Ho Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-16 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chicago (Ill.); San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jennifer Ho Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16_transcript Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/455a10662771c3280ba9f49c86347341.pdf 095780521aed305d72a670ce8d86c848 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Doan, Dennis "Dizzy". Interview transcript, March 6, 2023 Description An account of the resource Dennis "Dizzy" Doan is a Vietnamese American tattoo artist, writer and philanthropist in San Diego, California. In this interview, he speaks on his family and upbringing, as well as how he got his start in the tattoo industry. Doan also shares his motivation for starting his non-profit organization, The Doan Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dennis "Dizzy" Doan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Jennifer Ho Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-06 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Ethnic identity; Tattoo artists; Philanthropy Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dennis Doan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_transcript Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c71f7756a4ca050fbb015bad6116977f.pdf c9b281fd02c8936368d9a7c9f289910d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tran, Hac. Interview transcript, April 25, 2023 Description An account of the resource Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hac Tran Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Jennifer Ho Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-25 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Chicago--History; Vietnam; Cultural heritage Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chicago (Ill.); Milwaukee (Wis.); Budapest (Hungary); Czech Republic; Saigon (Vietnam); Đà Nẵng (Vietnam); Đà Lạt (Vietnam); Hội An (Vietnam); Quảng Nam--Đà Nẵng (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Hac Tran Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_transcript Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d4315443b6336aabbeedde911dfcbdc3.pdf 9388b7ae5e517c8d87c7ab3adf1ac9ef Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kim, Randy. Interview transcript, April 22, 2023. Description An account of the resource Randy Kim is a speaker, storyteller, podcaster and non-profit professional based in Chicago. In this interview, he talks about his life experiences as a queer Vietnamese-Khmer American, including his childhood, background, and creative work. Randy also speaks on his relationship with his family members and the people he has met who have impacted his life for the better. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Randy Kim Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Jennifer Ho Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Randy Kim Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KimRandy_HoJennifer_2023-04-22_transcript Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Ethnic identity; Vietnam; Cambodia Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia) Chicago (Ill.) Vietnam Cambodia Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dennis "Dizzy" Doan OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Vietnamese American identity;tattoo artistry;philanthropy;immigration;community OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Doan, Dennis "Dizzy". Interview March 6, 2023. SC027-110 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnamese American identity ; tattoo artistry ; philanthropy ; immigration ; community Dennis "Dizzy" Doan Jennifer Ho moving image DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/30cd38c20fdc6dece2f45114880a90f4.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Dennis “Dizzy” Doan, March 6, 2023, by Jennifer Ho. 0 27 Growing up and family life Dennis talks about his childhood growing up in Linda Vista (San Diego), and describes his family, including his brother’s significant role in his upbringing. Saginaw, Michigan ; Saigon ; Danang, Vietnam ; Orange County ; Section 8 housing ; Kung Fu ; Chinese lion dancing ; City Heights ; Mira Mesa ; Pho Hoa ; Pho Hoa Hiep ; Vien Dong ; Thuan Phat ; Rite Aid ; Thrifty ; University of San Diego ; Kearny High Schol ; Scripps Ranch High School ; Montomery Middle School ; Taft Middle School ; Sharp Hospital 0 1031 Mom and brother Dennis talks about the departure of his mother and his brother when he was young, and why they left, as well as the effect their departure had on him. alcoholism ; Washington, D.C. ; hunger ; Costco ; KFC 0 1596 Life lessons and starting out as a tattoo artist In this segment, Dennis shares the lesson he has learned about dependency, and how it has carried him through a successful career. He reflects on early days of learning how to run a business. Dennis shares the story of how he became a tattoo artist, first as a teenager working from his home and then as a business partner before opening his own studio. business venture ; U.S. Marshalls ; Mission Valley Mall ; Michael's ; Louis Vuitton ; Criagslist ; MySpace ; Baby Bash ; Peckerwoods ; Aryan Brotherhood ; Linda Vista ; Kearny Mesa ; Clairemont Mesa Boulevard ; Absolute Tattoo ; Chula Vista ; City Heights, Asian Business Center ; Black Lotus 0 2923 Black Lotus Tattoo &amp ; Social Club Dennis talks about his third and current shop, Black Lotus. health inspectors 0 3031 Education and career goals In this segment, Dennis discusses his time in grade school and at San Diego State University, and his career objectives at the time. AP English ; Emily Walker ; Asian Studies ; the Philippines 0 3486 Family and community responses Dennis talks about his family’s reaction to him dropping out of school and becoming a tattoo artist. He shares the story of how they found out he had tattoos. He also talks about the response from the Vietnamese community and tattooing community. Vietnamese Boy Scouts ; Vietnamese lion dancing ; Asian tattoo artists 0 3799 Hate is a Virus Dennis talks about “Hate is a Virus,” the project that brought him a windfall of attention during Covid. Covid-19 ; Pennsylvania ; Temple University 0 4195 Vietnam and relationship with Mom Dennis discusses his past trips to Vietnam and the first time his mom saw his tattoos. He talks about his relationship with her and with his family. Taipei ; traditional Vietnamese family 0 4563 Vietnamese identity Dennis talks about whether he identifies as a Vietnamese or American person, and how this is influenced by where someone grows up. He also talks about how people see him. Orange County ; Napa Valley ; San Jose ; Montana ; Filipinos ; Tagalog ; Chinese ; City Heights ; Chinese lion dance ; Tet 0 4767 Ambition and fatherly relationship Dennis talks about the time of day he is most productive. He discusses his motivation and ambition, and how his mother is similar. He also talks about his relationship with his father and how it has evolved through the years. Mira Mesa ; lion dance ; Vietnamese Student Association ; University of California San Diego 0 5583 Asian and Black community relationships Dennis discusses the relationship between the Asian and Black communities. He also talks about his foundation’s service to people of any race, and the competition for funding between Vietnamese-serving non-profits. George Floyd ; non-profit organizations ; City Heights ; Orange County ; San Diego ; Utah 0 6028 The Doan Foundation The Doan Foundation&#13 ; Dennis talks about the Doan Foundation, including how he got it started, its accomplishments and his vision for its future. &#13 ; Thao Ha ; educational scholarships ; Multicultural Fair ; Linda Vista ; Convoy district ; Asian Pacific Islander Coalition ; Cross Street Chicken and Beer ; Nguyet Pham ; Viet Vote ; Oceanside Southern California API Festival ; Ronald McDonald House Charities 0 7006 Changes in the tattoo industry Dennis talks about how the tattoo industry has evolved. He discusses changes in technical skills, opportunity and exposure. He also discusses the role of apprenticeships. tattoo technology ; portfolio ; YouTube ; mentoring ; U.S. Navy 0 7378 Values and mentorship Dennis discusses his values as a mentor, as well as how he stays focused and grounded in all of his ventures. He also talks about how he declines customer ideas for bad tattoos. growth ; problem solving ; tattoo styles ; time management ; customer service 0 7853 Speaking truth and meeting expectations Dennis talks about speaking with openness and truth, including the mental process involved in writing his memoir. He discusses his need to meet the high expectations he has for himself and how that was instilled in him by his brother. philanthropy ; writing ; community 0 8453 Work ethic, culture and the future Dennis talks about his consistent work ethic, the pride he feels in creating his non-profit, and the difficulty of maintaining one’s culture. He talks about his new granddaughter and what he wants for her future. financial education ; language loss ; diversity ; Balboa Park ; AAPI movement ; Black pride 0 9013 Jobs and careers for students Dennis shares his vision of creating a career fair in which students learn about careers that are not normally discussed. He also talks about his brother’s work at the Linda Vista Public Library and reminisces on minimum wage in the mid-1990s. employment and careers ; libraries 0 Oral history Dennis "Dizzy" Doan is a Vietnamese American tattoo artist, writer and philanthropist in San Diego, California. In this interview, he speaks on his family and upbringing, as well as how he got his start in the tattoo industry. Doan also shares his motivation for starting his non-profit organization, The Doan Foundation.&#13 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:27.000 All right. (Claps.) Today is March 6th, 2023. This is Jennifer Ho, and I’m interviewing Dennis “Dizzy” Đoàn (Dennis “Dizzy” Doan) for the Children of Refugees, the Vietnamese American Oral History Project. Thanks for being with me today, Dennis. How are you doing? (both laugh) All right. Let’s just start. (both laugh) Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:31.000 I was born in 1990, in Saginaw, Michigan. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:33.000 And what brought your family to Michigan? 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:55.000 Um, my uncle at the time, my uncle was just coming over here from Việt Nam (Vietnam). He had worked for Vietnamese Intelligence in the past. He was my dad’s oldest brother. And I guess my family finally made the leap. Because they stayed there during the aftermath of the war, which it was really surprising for me to learn that, because a lot of people left during the war, immediately after. But my grandma was a Vietnam War nurse. So, my dad’s whole family from Đà Nẵng (Da Nang) eventually went to Sài Gòn (Saigon) to pretty much be close to my mom’s family because my mom is from Saigon. So, I guess things were more peaceful there. Because they were pretty much getting hunted up there in Da Nang. My dad’s dad was a police captain for the South, who often went to the North to infiltrate their military. So, he was in prison pretty much most of his life. So, my dad was raised by his stepdad. So, it’s a crazy family timeline because my dad has like four stepdads and he’s the middle child. So, all his siblings after, they’re the only ones who have the same dad, who I grew up thinking was my paternal grandfather. But I found out he wasn’t later. So— 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.000 When did you find out? 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:40.000 I—Well, I grew up knowing I had a ông ngoại (ong ngoai, maternal grandfather) and I had two ông nộis (ong noi, paternal grandfathers, Vietlish), but I didn’t know why, you know what I mean? There was ong noi Chan (note: spelling is unknown) , which was—We went to go see him like once in a blue moon. He lived in Orange County. But my regular ong noi, who I refer to as he basically raised me, you know, and that was my dad’s stepdad. But I didn’t know that until later on. And I was like “Okay. So, that’s why I have two grandpas on dad’s side.” Because, you know, my dad was pretty much estranged from his real father. But we still, you know, we still went to go see him and visit and see if he was okay and what not. Because he came over here later, like ’94, ’95 or something. Yeah. 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:46.000 Okay. How did you find out about your two ong nois? 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:47.000 Well, just eavesdropping— (laughs) 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:48.000 Oh really? 00:02:48.000 --> 00:03:13.000 —on the family. No, because my brother—I mean, my brother was there for all that. He’s twelve years older than me. So, he was twelve when they came here to America. So, listening to him talk to my mom, here and there, I finally kind of put two and two together. As I grew up, I understood more of like the dynamic of, you know, marriage and things like that. Divorce, separation. Yeah. 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:20.000 Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So, tell me about your family and the people who raised you. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:04:13.000 My parents—Well, my brother actually was the one who pretty much raised me. Because my parents were always working. When they first came here, my mom worked as a seamstress for a little bit. And then went on to do nails like every other Vietnamese mom. My dad was going to school for a little bit to learn enough English just to get around, and then from there he went on to work as, it was like doing assembly line stuff for a hardware company, which he’s still there today. Yeah. But they were gone usually from eight to eight every day. So, my brother would be back and forth. Sometimes, he would have to take me to work with him. Sometimes, he’d take me to school with him. But, yeah, it was pretty much me and him for most of my life until he left when I was about twelve years old to go to medical school. 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:17.000 Wow. Okay. So, was this in Michigan? Or in San Diego? 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:24.000 No, it was in San Diego. Yeah, we came to San Diego in, I think, like 1991, right after I was born. 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.000 Oh. Okay. So, you were just a baby. 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:45.000 Yeah, because my grandma had a sister in here, and then she had family in Orange County as well. So, they decided to come here because the climate was a lot more similar to Vietnam, and, you know, Michigan’s crazy. It has crazy weather. So, yeah. So, that’s why they over here and settled here. 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:48.000 Okay. Have you been to Michigan? 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:49.000 Nope. (chuckles) 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:53.000 Okay. Okay. I was going to ask you how you think you would have been different if you were raised there. 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:59.000 Well, I hear stories. I mean, my brother and my cousin, they were the only minorities at their whole school. 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:00.000 Yeah. 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:01.000 Yeah. (chuckles) 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:02.000 Like the only minorities, period. 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:03.000 Period. Yeah. 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:04.000 Oh, wow! Okay. Was it like— 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:08.000 Everyone else was white. Yeah, and some Blacks, some Black people. But that’s it. 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:11.000 Okay. Was it like a suburb, suburban area? 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:12.000 I don’t know. I don’t know. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.000 Okay. You were a baby, so— 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.000 Yeah. Yeah. 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:23.000 —okay. Okay. Cool. So, you were raised primarily by your brother because your parents were at work a lot. 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:25.000 Yes. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:35.000 Can you tell me more about your childhood? Like what did you do for fun? What did you eat? Who prepared your meals? Who were your friends? Like what comes to mind when you think about your childhood? 00:05:35.000 --> 00:07:14.000 Um, my childhood was, I think it was good. Because I was surrounded by a lot of family, in regards to - I had a lot of cousins that came here from Vietnam. They ended up living with us for a while. And I had cousins from France that would come every summer and hang out. It was very diversified, you know. My friends—I had Mexican friends, Black friends, white friends, whatever. Because when you’re young, you don’t really think about, you know, differentiation in that regard, you know. Um, but pretty much I was either playing outside or I was in the house building something with cardboard boxes, you know. We were poor so we didn’t have too much. I guess at the time I didn’t realize how poor we were. But you don’t really have anything to compare that to. So, we appreciate it regardless, you know. Because they would take me to—After I’d get a shot, my dad would take me to go to like the 99-cent store or something, to get a toy, and I’d be like “Oh, wow!” But it was cool. I feel like back then, I guess society looked out for each other a lot more. Everyone in my apartment complex kind of looked after each other’s kids. You know, when all the kids were playing outside, there was always a parent that was kind of monitoring them. Whenever I didn’t have a key to get into the house, I would just go downstairs to the manager’s office, and they would just come up and open it for me. We could leave our doors unlocked. It was more of a community. Nowadays, everyone’s kind of scared of everything and, you know, parents are overprotective because, you know, everything going on in the world. So, yeah. Things were a lot different, I guess you could say. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:25.000 Okay. I want to hear more about your apartment complex. Like that’s a really—It sounds like a really tight-knit community. So, how did you—Were they other Vietnamese people? Or— 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:48.000 No. It was everybody. I mean, the only thing everyone had in common was we were all pretty—on Section 8. Pretty much, you know. So, we looked out for each other. Yeah, so a little bit of everybody. People would—I had kids come to my house and I’d go to their house. There was no like judgment, nothing within like our little community, you know. It’s like a big melting pot, pretty much. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:49.000 That’s nice. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:56.000 Yeah. So, what else? I was going to talk about something else. (chuckles) 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:59.000 Um, your neighbors, community, looking out for each other. 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:11.000 Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we used to play outside. I’d play football and whatnot. My brother would only let me play outside for one hour a day. So, I had to, you know, make the best of it. (chuckles) 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.000 Why did he only let you play outside for an hour? 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:27.000 Well, he was a little more strict than my parents even were. Because they wanted me to focus on my homework, studying. I didn’t get to watch TV for more than an hour a day. And I didn’t get to play outside for more than one hour a day. Yeah. (laughs) 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.000 Wow. Okay. 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:46.000 Yep. It was pretty wild, like the way that he basically molded me. I mean, it’s good. Looking back on it, it helped me develop into who I am discipline-wise. At the time, you know, I hated it. So— 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:47.000 Yeah. Of course. 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:52.000 Yeah. But I’d always try to get around it. You remember how the TVs back then were like glass? 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:53.000 Yeah. 00:08:53.000 --> 00:09:06.000 With a giant tube? So, whenever he was gone, I’d always try to sneak in like some cartoons or something, and he’d always come home and he’d be like, “Oh, you were watching TV, huh?” And I’d be like, “No.” But, you know, there’s like static on there. The whole thing is hot. 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.000 It’s warm. Mm-hmm. 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:28.000 But when you’re little, you don’t think about that. So, he knows. I was like, “Man, this guy knows everything.” So, when I played outside too, if I’m sweating or whatever, he’ll know. But yeah. He was just—he wanted me on the right path, I guess you could say. He didn’t want me to get the wrong influences around me. Yeah. 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:35.000 So, it sounds like your brother might have had some of that kind of fear, I guess you could say, that we have today as parents. 00:09:35.000 --> 00:10:12.000 Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s because he had two worlds to compare to each other, like his life in Vietnam versus life here. And he’s seen like the worst in humanity in both places, you know? So, he just wanted to protect me from that. He used to teach Kung Fu, and Chinese Lion Dancing at the library, because he worked there, and he also ran that program for them. And he would never allow any of his students to cuss around me. And they couldn’t talk about like bad things, all those types. So, he’s very, very protective, you know. 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:13.000 Wow! 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.000 Yeah. 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:19.000 Um, and what neighborhood did you grow up in, in San Diego? 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:20.000 I grew up in Linda Vista. 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:20.000 In Linda Vista. Okay. 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:45.000 So, at the time, in the early ‘90s, that’s where like all the Vietnamese people were. Pretty much. It was like its own little community. There’s the Vietnamese market there. The first Vietnamese restaurants were there. There and City Heights were kind of blooming at the same time. And it’s only later that it started to work its way up to Mira Mesa. Yeah. 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Okay. So, tell me like what are some of the places you would go in Linda Vista? Like what restaurants would you go to or what little shops or like playgrounds? 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:05.000 There’s Phở Hòa (Pho Hoa). We used to go there a lot. I used to go to the thrift store a lot, which is not there anymore. 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.000 Is the phở (pho) place there still? 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.000 The pho place is still there. My dad’s friend actually owns it now . 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:11.000 Okay. So, a different ownership. 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:24.000 Yeah. Yeah. There’s a place called Phở Hòa Hiểp (Pho Hoa Hiep). That’s still there. Viễn Đông Supermarket (Vien Dong Supermarket), which is now Thuận Phát Supermarket (Thuan Phat Supermarket) is there. Yeah. And then Rite-Aid used to be Thrifty. 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:25.000 Right! 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:34.000 And there’s a bunch of little Vietnamese gift shops there, to buy like cheap clothes and whatnot. But we were at the thrift store a lot. I remember that. 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:36.000 Okay. Why was that? 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.000 That’s where we got all the clothes and everything. Yep. 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:40.000 Okay. The thrift store’s not there anymore, you said. 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:54.000 No. It’s not. It’s—I don’t know what it is now, actually. There’s a supermarket in front of it, and then I think it’s like some type of freaking—they’re turning it into some type of plaza or something. It was a big, big thrift store. 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:57.000 Is it in the same shopping center as the Vien Dong was? 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.000 No. It’s like kind of across the street. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:01.000 Okay. 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:08.000 On the side. I know they’re building apartments over there now, too. They’re gentrifying the whole area because it’s close to USD (University of San Diego) . 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:09.000 Okay. 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:15.000 So, you know, prices are skyrocketing. It used to be like the ghetto. Now, there’s homes that are selling for 1.2 mill. 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:22.000 Wow. In Linda Vista. That’s hard to imagine. And does your dad still live there? 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.000 No, he lives in Mira Mesa now. 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.000 Okay. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:58.000 Yeah. Well, when I was—Until the age of four, I was growing up in like the really bad side of Linda Vista. But my mom got so tired of it. I remember she and I ended up walking around the whole neighborhood and then we walked like an hour, forty-five minutes to an hour, towards the other direction, like the beginning of Linda Vista on the other end. And she finally found an apartment complex that she thought was okay. And that’s the one that I’m referring to when I talk about the community and everything. 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:02.000 Okay. Is that apartment building still there? 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:03.000 Yeah. It’s still there. It’s called Mesa Vista. 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.000 Mesa Vista. 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:06.000 Yeah. 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.000 Okay. Do you know if any of your old neighbors still live there? 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:13.000 Mmm, one of them do, that I know of. She’s my client, too, so— 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:14.000 Oh, okay. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:15.000 Yeah. (chuckles) 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:17.000 Is that how she found you? Or was it a coincidence? 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:53.000 So, I lived there for a while. I lived there until I was maybe, I think, seventeen, seventeen or eighteen. And I moved. I moved to Mira Mesa, and then I eventually came back again. So, that’s when I met that neighbor. Because my car actually got hit behind her house, or her apartment. So, when my car got hit, she contacted one of my friends that lived in the apartment. And they contacted me. And then that whole thing got resolved. But that’s how I met her. And, you know, it’s been cool since. She’s been my client ever since. 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.000 Okay. Good. 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.000 Yeah. Everything kind of connects. It’s weird. 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Yeah. Yeah. I’ve noticed that too. Okay. And where did you go to high school? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:05.000 Kearny High School. 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:11.000 Okay. Any good memories there? Or any memories at all? Did you do okay? 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:17.000 I wasn’t supposed to go there. My brother was actually really adamant on me going to Scripps. 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:18.000 Scripps? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:19.000 Ranch. Scripps Ranch. 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:20.000 Oh. Okay. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:37.000 Yeah. Because he went there. He was the first full graduating class of Scripps Ranch. Back then, they used to, you know, bus them from Linda Vista up to there. Because they had like their magnet program and all that. But I don’t know. I just—It wasn’t for me. Freshmen year of—huh? 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:38.000 What wasn’t for you? 00:14:38.000 --> 00:15:24.000 Just like traveling back and forth. You know, yeah. And I was already—I felt like I was distancing myself from my neighborhood when I moved to the other side of Linda Vista, you know? If I was to go to school in a totally different area, then it would be worse. It was kind of a weird dynamic. Because you had the really hood-hood kids on one side and, you know, you had to earn your respect from those kids if you were like anywhere else in the area. You know what I mean? 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.000 So, you were one of those hood-hood kids and then you left. 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:28.000 Yes. Yes. 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.000 Okay. So, did people look at you differently after you left? 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:39.000 Yes. So, when I went to middle school, I had to go back to that neighborhood. Yeah. Because it was on the other side, by Vien Dong and stuff. 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.000 Okay. What’s the name of that school? 00:15:41.000 --> 00:16:38.000 Montgomery Middle School. Mm-hmm. So, I had to—you know, I would to go to my cousin’s house who lived nearby in the morning. I would walk to school, and then after school, I walked to my cousin’s and then I’d get picked up and go home. Yeah. Because if I was to walk home, it’d take me an hour. Right? So, I’d have to wait for my dad to pick me up. But yeah. It was different. Yeah. I kept going back and forth, mentally, in terms of how, like survival mode versus non-survival mode. Because when I went to school in the nice area, the elementary school there, everything was great. There was a mixture of kids and everything. And then I’d go to this school and there was nothing but gangs and, you know, it’s like all minorities. There’s no balance of anything. And the teachers, they didn’t really care because they were kind of fed up with everything. There was, there were girls that were twelve years old, pregnant. All kinds of stuff. Yeah. So, it was a different shift. 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:44.000 Okay. So, I’m kind of—Was there a middle school in your new area? Is that why you had to go to Montgomery? 00:16:44.000 --> 00:17:06.000 I lived in a weird—like there was weird boundaries. So, I couldn’t—There was a school in Clairemont called Taft that was, you know, zoned differently or something. So, all the people that lived kind of like by Sharp Hospital or something would go to Taft, but my side had to go to Montgomery. 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:11.000 Okay. I was going to say I’m kind of surprised that your mom left that neighborhood only for you to have to come back to school. 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:22.000 Yeah. Well, my mom actually left when I was twelve, too. So, that changed the whole dynamic of everything as well. 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Okay. So, your brother left and then she left. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.000 Yep. They both kind of left at the same time. 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Okay. Was that related? 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:44.000 No. Well, yes and no. My dad was an alcoholic for most of my life. So, I guess, well, my brother had to leave because he went to medical school. And then my mom left soon after that because she was just fed up, you know. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.000 With? 00:17:45.000 --> 00:19:20.000 With my dad’s alcoholism and, you know, verbally abusiveness and physical. And I guess she thought at the time that I was finally old enough to understand or something? So, you know, yeah, I remember because she usually stays home on Mondays. So, there was one Monday I walked home from school. And she usually cooks me like some random dish on Mondays so when I get home, I could eat it. And she’ll go do her errands or something. But that day I walked in, and I didn’t see anybody. So, I was like “What’s going on?” So, I went to her room, and I didn’t see anyone there. And I went to her closet. And I didn’t see any of her clothes. So, I was like, “Okay, maybe she went to Vietnam and forgot to tell me or something.” So, I walked to—I tried calling her and she wouldn’t pick up. And I walked to her best friend’s house which was in the same apartment complex as well, about like three, four doors down. And she opened the door, and I asked her. I’m like “Oh, where’s my mom?” And she’s like “Oh, I don’t know. I haven’t heard from her.” I’m like “Okay.” So, I went back, and I called my brother. I’m like, “Dude, where’s mom?” And he was like “I don’t know. What happened?” And I was like “I don’t know. No one’s here. And all her stuff is gone.” And he was like “Okay.” So, I was just sitting there, not knowing what was going on. And then, of course, my dad went drinking that night, right? So, when he came back, I was kind of freaking out because, you know, he was going to get mad and then go crazy. But, you know, he was so drunk when he got back, he didn’t even realize she was gone, ‘til the next morning. 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:21.000 Wow. 00:19:21.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Yeah. Yep. So, next morning, I talked to him. He was like “Where’s your mom?” And I’m like “I have no clue.” But she didn’t contact me until maybe three weeks later to tell me that she moved to Washington, D.C., or something—I think it was D.C. at the time, yeah. And then she asked me to come with her or to go over there. And in my mind, that would have been the easier thing to do because, you know, my dad’s great but he has no clue what he’s doing when it comes to being like a single parent, you know. Because I was with my mom most of the time. So, I told her, I’m like “I want to, but I don’t think I can. Because if I do, like dad’s not going to have anything left and then he’s just going to, you know, that’s going to be the end for him, you know what I mean?” So, I’m like “I’ll just take it, and I’ll stay.” So, I stayed and, you know, he was going through his depression for a while. Like at that age, you know, he would go to work, come back, drink. He would just do the same thing every day. He barely ate —He would eat like a little bit of pho every night, some chips or something. And then just drink, you know. And when I’d get home—It came out on paper they weren’t separated or anything. So, you know, we were still paying like full amount of rent or whatnot, with the Section 8. I had to lie to my grandparents and my whole family. I had to tell them that my mom went to go work somewhere else for, temporarily, to get money or something. So, I had to lie to them for like six, seven years. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:21:00.000 Wow! To your ong noi and bà nội (ba noi, paternal grandmother)? 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:06.000 Mm-hmm. So, that’s how long my dad tried to hide it. My grandma wasn’t dumb though. She was still—she was only like seventy at the time. 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.000 And they were nearby? 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:42.000 They were—At the time, they were. They eventually moved back to Orange County. But they knew. Because my mom was close to them, too, you know. And she talked to them eventually. But my dad’s youngest sister was the one who knew like everything because my mom was really close to her. And she was the one housing my brother while he was in medical school, as well. So, you know, he was working. He was doing what he could. You know, he would give me maybe like twenty bucks a week or something. Because he wasn’t—He didn’t cook anymore. He didn’t do anything, you know. So, most of those days were spent me coming home from school and he would be like just “Oh, just find something to eat.” And I’m like “Okay.” (chuckles) 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.000 What would you find? 00:21:45.000 --> 00:23:04.000 Nothing. I just—Just whatever. It’s like I used to, you know—Me and my friend would go to like the—I knew that KFC threw out their food at night, at the end of the night. So, I had a friend that worked there, so she would give me some of the food. And I used to steal food from 7-11 all the time. I used to just go to my cousin’s house and act like everything’s cool. I didn’t want to make my dad look bad either. So, I couldn’t, you know, scavenge all their food. But my aunt eventually—My dad’s sister eventually like caught on. And every time I’d go up there to see my brother for the weekend, she would just go to Costco and just buy me a bunch of stuff so I could take it home. And, you know, she was the only one that really like knew what was going on. Because my mom would tell her everything was cool. Every day—I mean, she was calling me pretty often and she would be like “Oh, did you eat today?” And I’d be like “yeah, I did.” Or whatever. But yeah. It was an interesting time. Because I couldn’t—I was trying not to make anyone look bad, you know what I mean? But I was suffering while I was doing it, you know. Because when I would go to my cousin’s house in the morning, I was so hungry, but I couldn’t eat too much or else they would know something’s going on. But yeah, I couldn’t say anything. 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.000 That’s a lot for a twelve-year-old to carry. 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:10.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:15.000 So, how did this affect your schooling? Like I bet you were hungry when you went to school. 00:23:15.000 --> 00:24:04.000 Well, I used to take—Well, I had a free lunch. So, I would go there for a lunch, breakfast. Sometimes, I would take the food home with me. And people would give me food if they weren’t eating it or whatever. I’d put it in my backpack and just save it for later, you know. But I don’t think it affected me as much because most of the kids around me were going through similar things. You know what I mean? Like I had a friend—me and him, whenever we could find like fifty cents, we would put it together, get one like of those chicken snacker at KFC. At that time, it was a dollar. So, we’d get that, and we’d split it or something, you know. But yeah, we were going through the same things. So, maybe I didn’t feel like it was as significant because of that. But now, looking back, obviously you’re like “Oh. That was pretty bad.” (chuckles) 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:06.000 Yeah. It didn’t hit you until later. 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.000 Uh-huh. Yeah. Because there was nothing to compare it to. You know what I mean? 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.000 Yeah. Yeah. It was just your life. 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:14.000 Yeah. 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:18.000 So, have you like worked through all of that, like emotionally? 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.000 I think so. 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:20.000 Have you been to therapy? 00:24:20.000 --> 00:25:03.000 It took me a long time to get over the whole not having mom around thing. I was—It was kind of like a self-therapy that I went through. I was with a lot of different women in my life because, you know, I tried to fill that void. But there was, you know, at one point, I was like okay. I need—I had to analyze what was really going on. I had to analyze what I wanted and what I needed and why I needed it, you know? And, yeah, as I grew up and my career bloomed and I had something else to focus on, I was able to reflect more on it and kind of dissect it and kind of finally make peace with it, you know what I mean? 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:04.000 Have you made peace with it? 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:22.000 Yeah. Yeah. That’s why I started writing my book and everything. It’s finally time to like go back and kind of pinpoint those things and analyze it while I’m writing so that, you know, the next person who’s going through the same thing can, you know, take something from it. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:26.000 Yeah. Is there anybody that’s helping you analyze? 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:27.000 Mmm, no. 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.000 Okay. It’s just you with your thoughts. 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.000 I have a crazy brain. So— (chuckles) 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:34.000 Okay. Tell me more about that. 00:25:34.000 --> 00:26:22.000 Just I just feel like I met so many different people as a tattoo artist. And I’ve helped them through so much. And I’ve also learned a lot through them and their mistakes as well. So, I’ve lived through everyone else’s mistakes as well as my own. And I’ve gained the knowledge through all of it as well. You know what I mean? So, I don’t know. I have a weird way of reading people, certain scenarios, things. I’m very content with—I don’t know how to explain this. I’m very content with my thoughts now. I’m very content with how things are. And I’m ready to basically proceed to the next thing, you know what I mean? 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:32.000 Yeah. Okay. Wow. That’s quite a journey. So, you were in survival mode before. Do you ever feel like you’re in survival mode now? 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:35.000 I think it’s just—You mean like financially? Or— 00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:36.000 I don’t know. Anything. 00:26:36.000 --> 00:28:12.000 Oh, okay. Well, you know what. I learned at a very early age that I can’t depend on anybody. It’s good and it’s bad, you know. I’m not good at delegating. I’m not good at trusting people to do certain things with other responsibilities. So, I put all that pressure on myself. And, you know, if let’s say we want to start a business venture, I would have to know every micro detail about that business, how to run it from the taxes to the promo to the just every day, daily operations. I want to know everything. So, it’s a lot of pressure because I have to know so much that I just can’t focus on, you know, growing a company or something. So, it definitely takes longer to excel in multiple aspects of something rather than just to focus on specializing in that, you know. But it’s worth it in the end because no one can stop you, you know. If everyone were to leave—Like say you had twenty employees and they all leave, you’ll still be able to run it yourself. Versus you depending on all twenty of those people to do, to delegate something to. Whenever one piece of the puzzle is missing, you’re in panic mode, you know. So, I’ve made it a point not to put myself in that position ever again. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think just recently I figured that out. Maybe, I don’t know, five, six years ago. Yeah. 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.000 And it seems like it has worked well for you. Your business seems to be successful. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:47.000 Yeah, yeah. I’m content. I’m running things the way I want it. I had a business partner before. But I learned—That was like the last straw, where I learned that I have to do things myself, you know. Because when you don’t know where the money’s going, when you don’t know how to do one thing or another, you know, you get taken advantage of in one way or another. So, you gotta look out for yourself in that aspect. 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.000 Okay. Did you get taken advantage of by your partner? 00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:54.000 Mmm, in a sense. In a sense. But I made up for it, you know what I mean? 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.000 What do you mean you made up for it? 00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:58.000 Well, when you’re really young and you don’t know which direction to go —I met him when I was nineteen. So, when you’re really young, you don’t know which direction to go. You kind of look, you know, you look to someone older who has experience to kind of guide you through that, you know. And sometimes you get too dependent on that person. And you end up losing sight of the amount of work one person is doing versus another. And then, if you don’t say anything, it just keeps going and going. But in your mind, you want to be loyal, and you want to be a good business partner. So, you just stay quiet, and you ride it through and hope that things will balance out eventually. But then, there comes a point where you’re working yourself to the ground and you can see that things aren’t balanced, where you gotta cut it off, you know, however painful that may be. In the long run, it’s the better option, you know, for you and for whoever is working for you. 00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:00.000 And has it been better for you after all? 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:23.000 Yeah. Yeah. Things are a lot smoother. I mean it’s always better to have one perspective and one goal, or one person’s goal, rather than multiple people, you know what I mean? It gets confusing for the business and for the people who work for the business, and the customers, you know. 00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:29.000 Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, that singular vision is really important, so you all know exactly where you’re headed. 00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:34.000 And at least if you make a mistake and you fail, you know that it’s your failure. 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:35.000 Mm-hmm. Can’t blame anyone else. 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.000 Yeah. Mm-hmm. 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:45.000 Mmm. Okay. Um, okay. There’s so, like there’s so much I want to ask you. 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.000 I know. My life is a roller coaster. So, it’s everywhere. 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:48.000 Yeah. 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:50.000 Yeah. 00:30:50.000 --> 00:31:34.000 I want to hear about your path to your career as a tattoo artist. I know you have a new, newish non-profit venture. And I want to know about that as well. But tell me about how you became a tattoo artist. 00:31:34.000 --> 01:31:05.000 Okay. So, this is going to be a long story. 01:31:05.000 --> 01:31:07.000 Okay. 01:31:07.000 --> 01:32:25.000 Um, so, you know, I grew up in like a semi-ghetto neighborhood. So, there’s a lot of guys with tattoos and whatnot walking around. And my brother’s, some of my brother’s friends have tattoos. He had none though. But, you know, they were still considered very taboo within our community at the time. Because even though we were—the Vietnamese community was in San Diego, it was still nothing but Vietnamese people there. So, they spoke Vietnamese. They had the same values, tradition, and perceptions. So, we were always taught, “Oh, this guy has tattoos. He’s no good. Probably just got out of jail,” or whatever. Things changed as I got older because we were dipping into the 2000s. And I was like, “What the heck. Like I like that. Why can’t I do it, you know?” So, when I was—Actually, when I was twelve years old, again, I decided I was going to try to give myself a tattoo (chuckles). So, I went to Michael’s. I think I went with my mom to Mission Valley Mall. I took myself to Michael’s. And I got, I just got a sewing needle and some green acrylic paint. Because I thought tattoo ink was green at the time. Remember it used to fade green? 01:32:25.000 --> 01:32:26.000 Yeah. Yeah. 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:42.000 So, I got some dark green acrylic paint. And what else did I get? I think that’s it. I got some other solution to make that paint thinner. But I just used that, and I just carved right into me. 01:32:42.000 --> 01:32:46.000 Into yourself. Wow. What did you carve into yourself, if I may ask? 01:32:46.000 --> 01:34:45.000 Um, it was a really light Louis Vuitton logo for the “LV.” Linda Vista. Like monogram, yeah. So, that was dumb. But I did that. It was so light, though. My parents didn’t even notice it, you know. But then fast forward, when I started hanging out with like gangsters, when I was about fifteen years old, I hung out with this older guy named Đăng (Dang) who’s in Vietnam now. Because he was—The U.S. Marshals were looking for him. So, he left. But he was tattooing out of his house. He used to work at a shop. He had gotten out of prison doing like seven to ten years or something. But I used to hang out at his house a lot and my friends were there all the time. And, you know, of course I want a tattoo. So, I asked him. I wanted my back done and I was like “How much would you charge me to get my back done?” And he said “Seven hundred dollars” which is not a lot. But being fifteen years old, it’s a lot of money, you know. So, I was like, “Aw, man. I can’t afford that.” But all my friends got tattooed by him. So, I was like, “You know, I’ll just wait a little bit.” So, I had a friend from Afghanistan that came when I was in fifth grade. And we were good friends. He lived in the same apartment complex. And he used to be able to make anything, even at the age of ten, eleven. Like he made like fans, all kinds of like all the electrical stuff. Like I always messed around with him. But I asked him how I can make a tattoo machine. So, this was before like YouTube taught this stuff and everything. And he was just like “Oh, we’re just going to make a motor for you.” And I’m like “All right.” So, he made me a motor out of like a RC car, and I put one of those pink erasers from the pencils on there. And we got some guitar string and a sewing needle. And we used the shaft of like a Bic pen. And we had a tattoo machine. 01:34:45.000 --> 01:34:48.000 Wow! It worked? 01:34:48.000 --> 01:34:50.000 Yeah. Yeah, it worked. 01:34:50.000 --> 01:34:52.000 Who did you test it on? 01:34:52.000 --> 01:34:53.000 Uh, myself. 01:34:53.000 --> 01:34:54.000 Oh, wow! Again. 01:34:54.000 --> 01:35:41.000 Yeah. So, I did my thighs. And then, when I decided to dive deep into it, I told my cousin who was already eighteen, I was like “Okay, I need to find like a tattoo kit or something.” You know? I thought at the time, I think eBay was the only one that sold them from China. So, it was going to be like the worst quality. But it came with like a bunch of little inks and stuff. And so, I waited for a while. I got it. And I had no clue what I was doing. There was like a DVD that came with it or something. So, I watched a little bit of that. But I couldn’t really know until I used it. So, my cousin from France was actually visiting me that summer. And he’s like “Just test it on me.” So, I said, “Okay.” So, I did it. I did this Chinese symbol for energy on his chest, which still looks good today, actually. 01:35:41.000 --> 01:35:43.000 Oh, really? That’s cool. 01:35:43.000 --> 01:37:11.000 Yeah. But I knew nothing about needles. You know, there’s different sizes, configurations, whatever. But in my mind, I’m like “Oh. It has to be like drawing with a pen.” So, all I used was the smallest needles (pinches his right thumb and forefinger together to indicate something very tiny). And, you know, I even did like a whole back piece with this tiny, little needle, when—And then, later on, I realized there were bigger needles that I could shade with that are—that’d make it a lot faster. Yeah. But I didn’t know. I had this whole box of like a variety of them that came with the kit. So, I was just trying them all. I didn’t look at the size. I didn’t know anything about sizes. So, I just eyeballed it. (pinches his fingers and looks down, indicating eyeballing something) And looked and did it. Yeah. But I never intended to do it for money. I was doing it for fun. But then when I started to actually need money, I had a friend named Jamie. She was the one who pushed me to start charging people. She was like “Oh, you’re good. You might as well do it.” Because there weren’t that many Asian tattoo artists in the neighborhood, anyway, you know. So, it was illegal, obviously. Because I was underaged too. But I was tattooing, you know, just my friends pretty much. So, I would have her park outside my apartment complex because I didn’t want to park it inside. And I’d have someone go out there, walk them to my apartment where they’d come in, and my whole room I set up like a studio. I literally didn’t have a bed in there. I took it out. And I put a massage table in there. And that’s what I slept on. 01:37:11.000 --> 01:37:12.000 Wow. 01:37:12.000 --> 01:37:13.000 Yeah. 01:37:13.000 --> 01:37:16.000 Oh, my goodness. And this was in the place you were living in with your dad? 01:37:16.000 --> 01:37:22.000 Mm-hmm. Just me and him. He didn’t know I was tattooing for like three years. 01:37:22.000 --> 01:37:23.000 How did you hide it from him? 01:37:23.000 --> 01:37:59.000 Well, he was barely home. So, he was barely home and at the time I was also cutting hair. I was cutting hair and I was fixing cars. I was doing whatever I could because, obviously, being a teenager in the 2000s, you couldn’t do anything with no money, you know. You couldn’t go to movies. You couldn’t, you know, buy clothes. It was like a popularity contest all the time, you know. So, you always felt that constant pressure to get the next best thing or get the nice clothes or else no girls are going to like you. So, I had to do something. You know? Couldn’t get a job, really. 01:37:59.000 --> 01:38:01.000 Yeah. How old were you? 01:38:01.000 --> 01:38:05.000 I was like fifteen. I got arrested a few times. 01:38:05.000 --> 01:38:07.000 For tattooing? 01:38:07.000 --> 01:38:23.000 Um, no. (laughs) I had—I got arrested for like shoplifting once ; suspicion of auto theft once. But I never—Nothing ever came from it. Just my parents got in trouble if anything, you know. Paying fines and stuff. 01:38:23.000 --> 01:38:24.000 Okay. 01:38:24.000 --> 01:39:32.000 Yeah. But yeah. So, after that, I tattooed for a little bit, built some notoriety in my given area. I tattooed mostly Asians and Mexicans because that’s pretty much who I grew up with. I was ready to get rid of those Chinese tattoo machines and go to something better. So, I needed to find something more professional. But you couldn’t buy those unless you were working at a tattoo shop. So, we had to look on Craigslist and all that. And I found somebody that was selling something. And I contacted him to ask if it was still available. And I did this on MySpace, because he linked his MySpace. And it was a tattoo artist. And he told me that he had already sold those, but he was looking at my work and saw I did Asian art. And he needed Asian artists at his tattoo shop. So, I’m like “Okay. Like that’s cool!” And I wanted to learn the right way. I’m like “Are you like taking apprenticeships right now?” And he was like “No. We just need like an artist.” Literally, to draw for them to tattoo. 01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:33.000 Oh! 01:39:33.000 --> 01:41:21.000 I’m like “Ehhh, I don’t know, man.” Because I had gotten an offer, maybe when I was sixteen, to draw for Baby Bash, the singer rapper. He was doing a shoe line and he wanted to do some Asian designs for the shoes. And I rejected that because I was so young. I couldn’t go to Or—It was in Orange County. I couldn’t just go to Orange County and do it, you know? So, I rejected that. And this time, with this guy, I was just like, “Mmm, I mean, we can try it out.” You know what I mean? But I was about to go to San Diego State already. So, the summer before San Diego State, you know, I met up with him and his business partner. And they didn’t even have a shop yet, okay? So, it was kind of sketchy. But they lived over there like towards, you know, La Mesa or something in San Diego. And I went to this guy’s apartment. And they were just in the house kind of setting up everything because they were about to move into the shop. And it wasn’t really like a shop-shop, either. It was like a small like medical studio, in Hillcrest. And it was literally just a small room, like three hundred square feet. And both of these guys were trying to work in there. So, it was two Caucasian guys, okay. The first time I met them, they were telling me, yeah, you know, they need some designs because they do a lot of designs for different clubs or whatever. And I’m like, “What kind of clubs are you talking about?” He was like, “Oh, like motorcycle clubs and stuff.” And I’m like “Okay.” I’m like, “What kind of motorcycle club?” And then he gave me all these references, and everything was a woodpecker. Right? You ever heard of the Pecker Woods? 01:41:21.000 --> 01:41:22.000 No. 01:41:22.000 --> 01:41:23.000 Like the Aryan brotherhood? 01:41:23.000 --> 01:41:24.000 Oh really? 01:41:24.000 --> 01:41:31.000 Yeah. So, anyway. It was like skinhead, Aryan brotherhood, whatever, right? 01:41:31.000 --> 01:41:32.000 I’ve heard of Aryan brotherhood. 01:41:32.000 --> 01:47:06.000 Yeah. So, they were in the Aryan brotherhood when they were inside. They were both locked up for ten years before they came out. That’s how they met, in prison, right? So, they came out and decided to do the shop together. And, you know, I was the only guy there. And I didn’t care. It was like I just needed an opportunity, you know. And they were nice to me. They had no problem with me, I guess, because I’m Asian or something. But, you know, you can hear the racism, them towards other people. And, you know, my time there was interesting because they didn’t let me tattoo yet, because technically I was an artist, you know. They didn’t need me until they went to a convention in Vegas, and they wanted me to, basically, make money for them while they were gone. So, that’s when I was able to start tattooing. They didn’t even have their own furniture or anything. They actually used my stuff. Because I had already—I had everything already set up in my room. So, I just transferred it over, you know. But I treated that place like my own. I painted the walls by myself. I decorated myself, organized it, always cleaned up after them. I treated myself as an apprentice, but I really wasn’t. I was just trying to like, you know, pitch in, pretty much. But yeah. It was interesting because I was covering up a lot of swastikas. I met a lot of ‘em. (chuckles) But they all loved me. So, I don’t know. It was weird. It was just a weird dynamic. And, you know, if you know anything about like the prison life, you know most people in there, it’s very trapped lives in there. Obviously, they all have to stick to their own people. When they’re out here, it’s different. You know what I mean? They can be friends. They can be best friends, and one guy could be black, and one guy could be white. But in there, you can’t. So—Yeah. So, yeah. I did a lot of that. But when these two guys came back from their convention in Vegas, they had some problems, I guess. I already knew there was going to be problems because one guy did all the line work for the tattoos and one guy did all the shading. So, you already know, it takes more to do shading than line work. But they always split it 50/50. So, you already knew that wasn’t going to work out. And then the guy that did the line work, he wasn’t as good as the other guy. But he was more disciplined, right? He was more of a businessman. And the shading guy, he was phenomenal, like his work. Me studying his work is what —my observing of it is what inspired me to tattoo the way I tattoo. You know what I mean? Because he could freehand anything. Like he literally tattooed himself in prison, like his whole arm. And it is perfectly symmetrical. Yeah. It’s pretty crazy. The other guy, though, he was like, he was hit or miss. But he was, you know, a normal dude. More normal. They eventually parted ways. And so, it was just me. And his name is Willis. So, it was just me and Willis left, right? So, it was just me and Willis left and, you know, he was cool. We basically took turns working. I became like, technically, his business partner. But I wasn’t. I mean, I gave 50% of everything I made. I started to get a lot of clients. And then, eventually, he got back on drugs, smoking, all that and kind of went downhill. And I ended up being the only one there, all the time. And I didn’t care. I got to work, you know. So, I kept doing that until he got—I guess, he felt he was spiraling. So, I had met my former business partner at that time. And he used to come hang out which is—It’s ironic, because he was a correctional officer before. Right? And his friend was Willis’s parole officer. So, this whole weird dynamic going on in my world. But anyway, he gave me the idea that we should leave. So, I was like I thought about it and I’m like “Yeah…” But, you know, I’m a loyal person. So, I said, “I don’t know. Let’s give him a chance. Whatever.” And I forgot what happened but there was one night he came in drunk or something, the—Willis came in drunk. And I was like, “You know what. I’m done.” So, we took all our stuff and we just left. Well, all my stuff, and just left. I didn’t care that I didn’t have another shop to go to or anything. I just stopped tattooing for a little bit. And we just kept rolling around, looking for real estate to, you know, to lease. It was super hard because I wanted it to be in my neighborhood in Linda Vista or Kearny Mesa. But no one would allow me to open there. Because it was a “family oriented” (makes quotation gestures with his fingers) neighborhood, right? The only tattoo shop there was on Clairemont (Mesa Blvd.) which is “Absolute Tattoo” and they’ve been there since the ‘80s or something. So, I looked everywhere. I looked at Chula Vista. I looked more north. And then, just no luck. So, we ended up having to go to City Heights, which I did not want to be there because I felt like it didn’t allow me the space to grow. It was more like purely a starter business. I wanted it to be somewhere where it had the potential to last, you know, forever in that location. You know what I mean? The only place that was available in City Heights was a three-story building, the Chinese looking one. You know what I’m talking about? 01:47:06.000 --> 01:47:08.000 Oh, what? The grocery store. 01:47:08.000 --> 01:47:13.000 Mmm, on 47th and El Cajon. AB—it’s like Asian Business Center. 01:47:13.000 --> 01:47:15.000 Oh! Really! 01:47:15.000 --> 01:47:16.000 So, I was on the second floor. 01:47:16.000 --> 01:47:19.000 Oh, I didn’t know your shop was there. Okay. 01:47:19.000 --> 01:48:14.000 So, it was owned by an Italian guy. The building was built by Vietnamese people. Owned by an Italian guy with a Chinese wife, okay? So, he knew that we needed it, obviously, because my business partner at the time had like really bad credit. And I was only like nineteen. I had no credit, you know. So, he knew that we needed the spot. So, he overcharged us, obviously. So, the walls were crooked. The floors, the concrete on the floor was so bad that it was like peeling off. Yeah. It was like soft concrete. It was so weird. But yeah. It was really weird. It was a really weird spot. We had like this giant hallway (indicates a narrow pathway with both hands), I mean long hallway that went super deep in and then you’ve got this little space (gestures space opening wider with his arms). So, that hallway was useless. But that was like two-hundred-square-feet of hallway, you know. But we stayed there for a good, maybe, five years. 01:48:14.000 --> 01:48:16.000 Oh. That’s a long time. 01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:42.000 Yeah. Well, every two years from that point—so, 2010, we opened that shop. And I got like a few apprentices. I ended up getting like five or six artists there. So, after that, I left. And I went to open a private studio across the street for myself. So, I worked there by myself for a little bit. And then, two years after that is when I opened Black Lotus now. 01:48:42.000 --> 01:48:43.000 Okay. Okay. 01:48:43.000 --> 01:49:33.000 Yeah. So, I’ve been there since 2014. So, that’s my third shop, Black Lotus. So, long story short, you know, I’ve had a lot of apprentices. I’ve had a lot of artists work for me. You know, people come and go. Some have gone on to open their own shops. And some just don’t tattoo anymore, you know. A lot of them have had a problem with a business partner and left. And so, we were down to almost nothing. Like literally every—I felt like when I was able to be there with my guys—because I was the one doing the tattoos—they were more in tune with everything. Everyone was happier, all that. But as soon as I left whatever shop that was, everything would just go haywire, you know. My business partner wasn’t a tattoo artist. He was just in management, pretty much. 01:49:33.000 --> 01:49:46.000 Okay. It sounds—There was—I didn’t hear a huge jump from when you went from apprentice, to like, business owner and professional. 01:49:46.000 --> 01:49:49.000 Yeah. It wasn’t long. It was like a year. Maybe a year, yeah. 01:49:49.000 --> 01:49:51.000 Okay. So, was there any— 01:49:51.000 --> 01:49:53.000 But I wasn’t an apprentice, though. That’s the weird thing. 01:49:53.000 --> 01:49:54.000 Right. You were actually an equal. 01:49:54.000 --> 01:50:09.000 If I had really done it, yeah. Because even the health inspector was surprised, and was like, “How old are you?” Because they just wanted to license me so I could start working right away. And I was only like eighteen. She even said I was probably the youngest registered tattoo artist in history. 01:50:09.000 --> 01:50:10.000 Wow! 01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:14.000 Yeah. Because of that, though. Not in a good way, you know what I mean? 01:50:14.000 --> 01:50:15.000 Yeah. 01:50:15.000 --> 01:50:26.000 But I met her again recently because they used our facility to teach their inspectors how to like inspect, pretty much. So, that was cool. 01:50:26.000 --> 01:50:31.000 That is cool! That’s where your attention to detail with every little thing comes. 01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:36.000 Yeah. And I was actually trying to go for pre-med when I was in school too. Yeah. 01:50:36.000 --> 01:50:40.000 Okay. I was going to ask how this interfered with your time at San Diego State. 01:50:40.000 --> 01:52:11.000 Um, it—I don’t know. I was actually really bored at San Diego State, you know. Yeah. I messed around a lot during my sophomore and junior years of high school. I missed a lot of school, like ninety days each year because I was tattooing at home. You know, I needed money more than I needed to go to school. And, of course, no one cared if I go or not because, you know, my dad didn’t really understand the dynamic of everything when it comes to school, how it’s illegal to ditch. Yeah. So, a lot of time, I just stayed home. If it was sunny, I would walk to school. If it wasn’t, I would just stay home. And no one was there to say anything to me about it, you know. So, I had to motivate myself to get my head back in the game when I was a senior. And then, it was frustrating because I had to retake a few classes which—It was really weird because I had—I was in AP English as a senior with a woman named Ms. Walker (Emily Walker) . She was—Everyone said she was so mean, but she was super nice to me. But I was a senior, taking AP English with her while I was taking sophomore English with her as well. So, she was like, “Why are you here?” And I’m like “I don’t know.” So, she just made me a TA. So did all my other teachers, like the Chemistry teacher. Because they knew I knew what I was doing. I just wasn’t there, you know. So, I had to take half the semester over with those classes. But yeah. That was cool. She even gave me a hundred bucks when I graduated. (smiles and nods) 01:52:11.000 --> 01:52:14.000 That’s nice. That’s really sweet. 01:52:14.000 --> 01:52:32.000 So, I ended up graduating with honors from high school. I had a few full-ride offers, like CSU Long Beach, San Diego State. I really wanted to go to UCSD, but they didn’t accept me for some reason, you know. My brother went there. That’s why. 01:52:32.000 --> 01:52:34.000 That’s why you wanted to go? 01:52:34.000 --> 01:54:47.000 Yeah. I think a lot of things I wanted to do was motivated by him at that time in my life. So, they didn’t accept me, and I had a choice between, you know, going to school far away or staying here. And in my mind, though, the way I thought of it was would I rather be mediocre at a like, you know, A-tier school or would I rather stand out at a okay school. (laughs) No offense. But that’s the problem. When I went to San Diego State, I was really bored. I felt like I knew too much already about what I wanted to get into, and the classes I took were just, you know, unnecessary. I took a course on Asian Studies at San Diego State and literally the whole semester was spent on watching movies and videos on kids in the Philippines. And we spent maybe, I don’t know, maybe two weeks on all the other countries. (chuckles) So, I was like, “What the heck.” So, maybe three weeks into that class, I just tattooed one of my classmates and told him to just do all the work for me. And I passed it, right. But I took an art history class. That was kind of weird. We were just studying cave paintings all the time. Yeah. I didn’t know what the real world like application was to that, besides people that are really interested in like cave paintings. But as soon as I was in there for maybe three to four weeks, I was done. I had a Chemistry class where there was something to solve that the teacher wrote on the board and for some reason no one could figure it out. So, at the end of class, I raised my hand, and I was like, “Can you like show us what you’re trying to do?” And they couldn’t figure it out either. So, at that point, I was like I’m done with this class, you know. Because most of them are grad students trying to finish their thing. So, I don’t hold it against them. But that was not good. (chuckles) 01:54:47.000 --> 01:54:48.000 Right. 01:54:48.000 --> 01:54:57.000 Yeah. So, I went there for like a year-and-a-half, two years. And then I just didn’t go back. Yeah. They even had —They even made me pay back money because I got the scholarship money. 01:54:57.000 --> 01:55:03.000 Financial aid, yeah. What was your intention with going to college, like— 01:55:03.000 --> 01:55:05.000 I was trying to be a plastic surgeon. 01:55:05.000 --> 01:55:07.000 Oh, okay. Okay. 01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:09.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Big undertaking (laughs). 01:55:09.000 --> 01:55:11.000 Yeah. So, you were going to go to med school then at some point. 01:55:11.000 --> 01:56:08.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Even at the age of, you know, ten, eleven, I was already trying to read my brother’s like biochem books and all that. Just to feel like a smart kid. But, you know, eventually I caught on. I took some athletic training classes. In high school, I knew about the human anatomy. I knew everything already to prepare me for that, you know. And I was really interested in helping people. I mean, it helps me a lot in my daily tattoo job too. Because I know when someone’s body reacts a certain way, I know exactly what it is. Even my—the people that work in my shop, every time they get sick, they’ll call me. Like “What do I do? What do I take?” So, it’s funny how it all applies to your life now, you know. Mm-hmm. But yeah. I definitely tried to groom myself to get there. 01:56:08.000 --> 01:56:24.000 Okay. Okay. I have so many follow-up questions. I’ll try to stay on topic. So, tell me how your dad reacted when he found out that you were tattooing and how does he feel about it now? Like how has that evolved? 01:56:24.000 --> 01:58:30.000 Well, they didn’t know I dropped out. I mean, I was already past eighteen, so. When I would come home earlier, then he’d be like “Why are you home so early?” you know. I just told him that I was taking a break from school to focus on my job. He—They thought I worked at some graphic design firm or something. Because I do graphic design, too. So, he thought I was just doing that. I had to have him co-sign my first shop, though, because I didn’t have credit, you know. So, it was just like—I know that was big for him because, you know, I was a knucklehead at the time. So, he probably didn’t trust me, thought I was going to mess him up. But I had him put his name on that and I’m like, “Just trust me. I got it, you know.” So, it wasn’t until I opened like my third shop ‘til he took it seriously. Yeah. Because my parents were asking me constantly, “Well, when are you going back to school? When are you going back to school?” I’m like, “I’m not going back, dude. I have like three businesses, you know.” But I knew they were okay with it when they started asking me for stuff, (laughs) like “Can you pay for this?” or, you know, “Buy me this.” My brother was kind of —He knew I went through a lot trying to like catch up with him or—it’s because my parents were kind of there for him throughout his whole like childhood. And when he went to medical school, everyone supported him. My aunt, you know, took care of him and everything. But when it came time for me, like no one was there for me, you know? So, we had a different struggle. Although he lived like a really bad life in Vietnam with my parents, and then, you know, came over here to become a success, I had like a different set of problems I dealt with, you know, even being born in America, you know. You can’t compare the two because they’re so dramatically different. But he knew. So, he told me, just do whatever makes me happy. He was like, “As long as you’re a good person, that’s all that matters.” Because he knew I had the pressure on me to do, you know, be a doctor or lawyer or whatever it may have been. 01:58:30.000 --> 01:58:31.000 Yeah. Okay. 01:58:31.000 --> 01:58:35.000 And he found out I was tattooing when I was like sixteen, so— 01:58:35.000 --> 01:58:37.000 How did he find out? 01:58:37.000 --> 01:59:31.000 Um, I slept at his house, and I made the mistake of wearing a T-shirt. And I already had—Keep in mind, at the age of fifteen, I already had both my legs tattooed, like most of my body, and then both half-sleeves done. (laughs) So, I was sleeping with a short-sleeved shirt, and I had like my arm up or something. And then he—we went to go eat the next day and he was like “Man, I could have swore I saw a tattoo on your arm or something.” And I’m like “No. What are you talking about?” And he lifted up, I think, the wrong arm because I didn’t have one on the other side. And he was like “What the heck?” So, then later on, he does it again while I’m in the car with him, and he’s like “I know I saw a tattoo.” And then he lifted up the right arm and he’s like “When the heck did you get that?” And I’m like “Uh, I started tattooing on the side to make money and stuff.” And he’s like “Okay.” And he was just telling me like “Be careful.” Whatever. And that’s it. Kind of just end of story, you know. 01:59:31.000 --> 01:59:32.000 Okay. 01:59:32.000 --> 01:59:34.000 Yeah. 01:59:34.000 --> 01:59:44.000 How has the Vietnamese community reacted? And Vietnamese American? I assume it’s somewhat different. 01:59:44.000 --> 02:01:22.000 It’s been interesting because I’m really—I’m very proper, you know. I’m very respectful to the elders. I’ve been involved with the community for so long because I was—I helped like the Vietnamese Boy Scouts out most of my life. I was in like Vietnamese Lion dancing. I’ve attended, you know, all the festivals, restaurant grand openings. And I have a lot of family, you know. So, I guess my family doesn’t, never took offense to me tattooing or anything. They always, eventually, like made a joke out of it. Like “Oh, tattoo a fly on me,” or something, you know. But they never looked down on it or anything. My parents have a lot of siblings. They have ten each. So, there’s a lot of family. They all know what I do and what I’m doing with it. So, I think they’re okay with that. Even my family that came here recently from Vietnam, they’re, you know, pretty accepting of everything. But I don’t know. I guess society as a whole, when you’re talking about Vietnamese people, they’re still judgmental, obviously. I’ve been to events where, you know, I could be donating like a few thousand dollars, and I’ll sit down at the table with people I don’t know, and they won’t say a word to me. They won’t talk to me or anything until after they realize who I am or what I’ve done. And then all of a sudden, it’s “Oh. Can I take a picture with you?” or “Can you help me with this?” but yeah. Unfortunately, that’s the way it is but it’s up to us to change it, you know. 02:01:22.000 --> 02:01:27.000 Okay. And what about the tattooing community? 02:01:27.000 --> 02:01:28.000 Tattooing community? 02:01:28.000 --> 02:01:29.000 Yeah. 02:01:29.000 --> 02:02:27.000 Kind of the same thing, because I didn’t have a formal apprenticeship. I taught myself how to tattoo. At the time, when I was starting out, it was still very—Tattooing was very—It’s a tight-knit community, I guess you could say. The only way you learn is if you learn from like this guy that passed it down to that guy. It was—There wasn’t public information out about it because they didn’t want it to get bigger. And there weren’t that many clients at the time either. Because there was no shows out or anything. So, you take what you can get. And they didn’t want competition, you know. I got in at the right time when it was blowing up. So, I kind of like took all the customers from San Diego, especially the Asian customers. So, you know, I got a lot of hate, even with the Asian tattoo artists in San Diego. There’s only like two or three of them. 02:02:27.000 --> 02:02:31.000 Two or three Asian tattoo artists? Asian or Vietnamese? 02:02:31.000 --> 02:02:32.000 At the time. Asian. 02:02:32.000 --> 02:02:33.000 Oh, wow! 02:02:33.000 --> 02:03:19.000 There weren’t that many. But, obviously, I was impeding on their business, too. And I was young, and I was hungry. So, they were saying “Who the heck is this kid?” That guy I used to hang out with, too, when I was fifteen, he reached out to me when I was about seventeen years old and asked me to work for him. And I said no. Because I didn’t want to tattoo the same way and kind of repeat the same things. So, that’s why I decided that. He was like “Oh, why do you want to work for white dudes, you know.” (shrugs his shoulders) I just wanted to do something different, you know. I wanted to run things different. I wanted people to look at me different. I didn’t want to just be another Asian tattoo artist in San Diego. I wanted to be more and do more, you know. 02:03:19.000 --> 02:03:38.000 Mm-hmm. Okay. When did you—I think—So, I was looking back, and I was trying to remember when I first heard about you. And it was when you did the art with the girl and the nón lá (non la, Vietnamese conical leaf hat) thing. 02:03:38.000 --> 02:03:43.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I call it the Model Minority. But a lot of people refer to it as “Hate is a Virus.” 02:03:43.000 --> 02:03:48.000 Yes! Hate is a Vi—Okay. Yes. Okay. So, how—can you tell me how that got started as a project? 02:03:48.000 --> 02:06:52.000 Mmm, that was an accident. Actually. Mm-hmm. So, during Covid, I didn’t think it would last as long as it did, the lockdowns. So, you know, they closed —They made me close my shop down for, I think it was seven months or something. It was pretty crazy, which is weird because they left the nail shops open, but not me. (laughs) I was even trying to be innovative and industrious. And I was going to convert the whole outside of my shop into like an outdoor setting, like with tents, canopy, cover, air conditioning vent, everything. But they were like, “No.” (chuckles) But, so we had to stay home. SoI didn’t know what I was doing with myself, and I heard about, you know, all the xenophobia stuff. So, I sat down. I was looking at Instagram and I saw an organization called “Hate is a Virus.” So, I wanted to help them in a way, help kind of amplify the message. And I just sat down and started drawing something. And I don’t usually finish my drawings either because I’m always just prepping for tattoos, you know. But I finally had time to just do whatever I wanted. So, I drawed a little sketch of it and I posted it, and everyone reacted pretty crazy. So, I decided to finish it. And I put it out there, and it kind of like blew up. And I wasn’t planning or intending to do anything with it, like make clothing or any of that. But one of my friends, who I actually just met with before this, he’s the one that—him and my wife were like “Oh, you need to make T-shirts out of this or something.” I’m like “Ehh, I don’t know. I don’t have the money right now,” because my shop was—We were going to be closed for a long time. So, I needed to use my own savings to pay for this. So, I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t have the money right now. It’s just going to be, it’s going to be a waste, you know. You don’t know if people are going to buy it.” And then my friend, he’s a pretty successful businessman. He trapped me and he ordered fifteen hundred shirts, right. Mm hmm. So, he ordered fifteen hundred shirts and he told me, he was just like “Oh, just pay me later.” And I was like “Okay.” That’s like $10,000, right. So, I was like “Okay, now I gotta sell this,” right? I’m pretty persistent and I’m pretty—when I put my mind to something, I’ll do it. I’ll be able to do it. So, I just started cranking out, you know. I had to create the website right away. Get all the analytics in there right away. And just start cranking ‘em out. So, I got all the pre-orders as soon as that happened. It was like a few thousand. I had at least like a thousand-some sales that first run. You know, we were selling them for 30 bucks each and I was donating 10% to Hate is a Virus. So, I mean, that’s a lot of money, right? (chuckles) 02:06:52.000 --> 02:06:54.000 Yeah. It is. 02:06:54.000 --> 02:08:11.000 So, after that happened, things kind of died down. And I was like “whatever,” you know. I still had like a few shirts left, maybe like three hundred shirts left or something. And I was able to open up the shop again and, you know, things were normal. And then the next year, it blew up again. But I didn’t do anything. It just—Somebody had shared it again. And then that is the year that it blew up like all around the world. So, yeah, one day I just woke up. I’m like “What the heck is going on? Like there’s so many people on my page right now.” So, it reached like Vietnamese celebrities. It reached like, you know, even my client came in one day and she was like “Oh my god, my surgeon just posted up your freaking thing.” I was like “What the heck.” It was some random Indian guy I don’t know, you know. So, there was—Facebook posted it. Instagram posted it. PBS. It was used in protests. It was used on covers of magazines. It was used for—I think it’s in some building at the—What’s that university in Pennsylvania? 02:08:11.000 --> 02:08:13.000 Penn State? 02:08:13.000 --> 02:08:14.000 Temple? Is it Temple? 02:08:14.000 --> 02:08:15.000 Oh, Temp—There’s—Yeah. There is Temple University. 02:08:15.000 --> 02:08:42.000 Yeah, I think it was Temple University. Yeah. It was used in a lot of things. And I was like “What the heck is going on?” you know. And to me, I mean, everything I draw I’m kind of like “Okay, whatever,” you know? I don’t really like admire it the same way that people can. Because just like when I cook, I don’t really like eating my cooking. Because I’m so tired of looking at it, you know. But yeah. It meant a lot to a lot of people. And I’m glad. 02:08:42.000 --> 02:08:44.000 Okay. 02:08:44.000 --> 02:09:55.000 Yeah. So, it opened, definitely opened the doors for me in the sense where there are different people who approach me now to have interviews and everything than just tattoo enthusiasts. You know what I mean? I feel like if I was just a tattoo artist and people only knew me with that, as that person with that title, in your mind you tend to already assume I look a certain way, do certain things, live a certain way. But this kind of changed everything for people. You know what I mean? I did news interviews with like Vietnamese news channels, you know, which is—It must have been weird for her viewers because they’ve probably never seen anybody like me on there. But, you know, it definitely shifts perspectives in a good way. Yeah. Very interesting though. My parents were scared I was going to say something wrong. They were like “Don’t talk politics.” I’m like— (shrugs his shoulders). She did try to trap me into talking about politics. But I didn’t do it. 02:09:55.000 --> 02:10:08.000 You didn’t fall for it. Okay, yeah. Okay. So, speaking of Vietnam, how often do you go back? 02:10:08.000 --> 02:10:12.000 Mmm, I’ve been there twice. But I haven’t been there since ’09. 02:10:12.000 --> 02:10:13.000 Oh. It’s been a while. 02:10:13.000 --> 02:11:12.000 Mm-hmm. The first time I went there was scary because I went there in ’05 the first time. And that was my first time ever on an airplane. I was supposed to go with my brother, but we didn’t make the decision until last minute. He bought me a ticket, you know. So, he was able to get me—He was going with his soccer team because he used to play for the Vietnamese league that played with like the Vietnamese soccer team. So, he got me a flight at the same time, but it wasn’t the same flight. And I flew by myself. My first time ever on an airplane. I was flying to Vietnam, right? So, I was like “Okay. I don’t know what I’m doing but—” You know, I flew to Taipei. I didn’t speak their language. I was just kind of like wandering around, trying to look for whatever. Taipei to Vietnam and then I go through customs and they kind of take me back because I had—At the time, I had the map of Vietnam on my arm tattooed with three stripes. 02:11:12.000 --> 02:11:13.000 Oh. 02:11:13.000 --> 02:11:25.000 Yeah, and it was hot, so I was wearing a tank top. So, they kind of, you know, grilled me for that. But then my brother got there, and his friend knew the customs agent, so they let me go. But yeah. That was interesting. 02:11:25.000 --> 02:11:30.000 How did you feel like throughout this whole flight experience? Like what was going through your mind? 02:11:30.000 --> 02:11:42.000 I don’t remember. I kind of just like shut it off. I was listening to the same music. There wasn’t that much to listen to at the time. I don’t think they had a lot of movies on there at the time either. 02:11:42.000 --> 02:11:43.000 In ’05. No, I don’t think so. 02:11:43.000 --> 02:11:56.000 Yeah. So, you know, I was just trying to mind my own business and, you know, do that. I was just more scared if I was going to survive the flight or not. (laughs) Because I’d never been on a plane. So— 02:11:56.000 --> 02:11:59.000 Yeah. That’s a really long flight for a first time. 02:11:59.000 --> 02:12:05.000 Yep. Yep. I was adventurous back then, so— 02:12:05.000 --> 02:12:06.000 Wait. Say that again? 02:12:06.000 --> 02:12:08.000 I said I was adventurous back then, though, so— 02:12:08.000 --> 02:12:09.000 Oh, adventurous. 02:12:09.000 --> 02:12:11.000 I was more curious than anything. 02:12:11.000 --> 02:12:15.000 Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. And how did the second time go? 02:12:15.000 --> 02:13:15.000 The second time was chill, easy. I flew—The second time there, I met my mom there. My mom had flown over there too. So, me and my brother and my mom. That’s when she found out about all my tattoos. Mm-hmm. Because we went to a spa. I didn’t know it was like a co-ed thing. So, me and my brother, we checked in in one area and my sister-in-law and my mom was in another. So, I’m like “Okay, whatever.” So, I told my brother, I’m like “Dude, Mom is going to see all my tattoos.” And he’s like “No she’s not.” And I’m like “All right.” (shrugs his shoulders) I was wearing like—you know, they have white shorts over there. So, at the end, after we go through everything, we walked to our room for the massage, and I see my mom. I’m like “Oh, shit.” So, she sees me, and she doesn’t say a word to me. And I was like “That’s it.” She like didn’t mention it. She already knew I was doing tattoos. But she didn’t know how many I had ; you know. But yeah. 02:13:15.000 --> 02:13:16.000 Did she follow up on it later? 02:13:16.000 --> 02:13:17.000 No. 02:13:17.000 --> 02:13:18.000 She never? 02:13:18.000 --> 02:13:30.000 No. She cried one time when she was talking to somebody about it in front of me, though, like “Oh, I can’t believe he got his neck tattooed.” And all that. She’s like “Let me just pay for you to get it lasered off.” I’m like “No. It’s okay.” Because in her mind I think she thinks that if she was here, I wouldn’t have become this person or whatever it may be, you know. That I would have taken a different path if she was around. But I don’t regret anything that happened to me in my life, you know. I think everything happens for a reason and she needed to go in order for me to be this. Like how I am now. You know what I mean? If they had tried to shelter me my whole life, it would have—I don’t know. Maybe I would be in school right now, unhappy with what I was doing. Right? Because if I had gone to another school in another state or something, I probably would have stayed, right, and finished. But, then what? I don’t know. But I’m glad that I did try to make it work, before I gave up on it. Rather than now saying “Oh, what if this happened,” right? 02:13:30.000 --> 02:14:40.000 Yeah. Yeah. You don’t want those kinds of regrets. Why not at least try it? Have you ever talked to your mom about her leaving? 02:14:40.000 --> 02:15:22.000 No. She doesn’t—She—My family doesn’t talk about anything. We don’t even give each other hugs. It’s very like a super traditional Vietnamese family. It’s just barely—I mean, my dad like hugs my wife and stuff and the kids and all that. But I’m—I don’t know. I guess we’re cold in that sense. It’s just the way it is, you know. It’s just more of the women in the family that do the hugging and kissing and stuff. Which is funny because my dad’s — all his siblings, his sisters, they’re like so loving. And they’re so like nurturing and everything. And my mom’s family is super like that too. They’re very tight knit, you know. 02:15:22.000 --> 02:15:25.000 Okay. What’s your relationship with your family like now? 02:15:25.000 --> 02:15:58.000 Um, it’s good. I mean I barely—I don’t really see my cousins too much anymore even though they’re like right down the street. Because I’m just so busy, you know. I think they get offended sometimes that I am that busy. But I know that what I’m doing is, you know, to set myself up for more time later. So, it’s okay. You know, they’ll understand, eventually. But I’m still close to all my cousins. Like they can contact me anytime, even my cousins from France, Australia. I speak to them on a regular basis. Yeah. 02:15:58.000 --> 02:16:00.000 That’s nice. Okay. 02:16:00.000 --> 02:16:03.000 There’s a lot. They’re all over the world, so— 02:16:03.000 --> 02:16:17.000 Mm-hmm. Cool. (pause) I want to go back to the Vietnamese American community. 02:16:17.000 --> 02:16:18.000 Okay. 02:16:18.000 --> 02:16:23.000 Do you (sighs)… Gosh… 02:16:23.000 --> 02:16:25.000 (chuckles) Trying to phrase it. 02:16:25.000 --> 02:16:34.000 Yeah! There’s just so much. And I feel like this is a really important part of this project, is to talk about identity and our relationship to the community. 02:16:34.000 --> 02:16:43.000 I guess what you want to ask—the question that I think a lot about too—is whether you identify as American or Vietnamese? Right? 02:16:43.000 --> 02:16:44.000 Mmm. Tell me. 02:16:44.000 --> 02:17:50.000 Um, I consider myself Vietnamese, honestly. I don’t know about the American. I mean, I should be the most American Vietnamese American ever, being born in Michigan. But I guess it depends. Because I grew up in the United States, but I grew up around immigrants. So, are you truly a Vietnamese American when you’re surrounded by nothing but your own people? Just like in Orange County, you can survive being a Vietnamese person without knowing any English in Orange County. So, you know, I mean the rules of the land apply, but do the social and, you know, the cultural rules apply? No. So, it’s a weird—I guess it just depends. Because a Vietnamese kid in, I don’t know, Napa Valley or something is going to be more Vietnamese American than, say, me, you know. A Vietnamese person in San Jose versus, I don’t know, freaking Montana or something is going to be different as well. 02:17:50.000 --> 02:17:51.000 Yeah. 02:17:51.000 --> 02:17:53.000 Yeah. 02:17:53.000 --> 02:17:58.000 How do you think the Vietnamese community sees you, like Vietnamese Vietnamese? 02:17:58.000 --> 02:18:02.000 I think they see me as a reflection of themselves. 02:18:02.000 --> 02:18:03.000 Okay. Tell me more. 02:18:03.000 --> 02:19:02.000 Like I feel like—Okay. So, here’s an example. People think I’m Filipino, often, right? So, I always see like, you know, older Filipino women and, you know, working or something. And they ask me, “Oh, are you Filipino?” Or they’ll speak to me in Tagalog. I’m like “No. I’m not.” And then, you know, Chinese people might speak to me in Chinese and think I’m Chinese. And I’m like “No. I’m not.” And Vietnamese people the same thing. But it’s like, I feel like the true Vietnamese people see me as one of them and the Vietnamese—I’m a chameleon. So, it’s hard. Because I can fit in with both. Because when I was growing up, I grew up with, you know, the City Heights Vietnamese guys who like some of them just came over here. Some of them have only been here for like five, six years. But I also grew up with some guys from Mira Mesa that have been, their families have been here for a while. So, they’re more like Americanized. So, I don’t know. That’s kind of a hard one. 02:19:02.000 --> 02:19:03.000 Yeah. 02:19:03.000 --> 02:19:27.000 I guess I can adjust and adapt to both, you know. Because I’m super Vietnamese in the sense where I’m participating in like, you know, the Boys Scouts stuff, the Chinese Lion Dance during Tết (Tet, Vietnamese new year) stuff. And I’m always involved with like the Tet Festival and everything. But I’m Vietnamese American as a scholar, you know. 02:19:27.000 --> 02:19:44.000 When do you feel the most like yourself? When do you feel the most at home and comfortable? Like when are you, you? Like, it might be place, certain people, setting, after a certain experience. 02:19:44.000 --> 02:19:49.000 I don’t know. I guess I feel most like myself at like 1, 2 a.m. It doesn’t matter where it’s at. 02:19:49.000 --> 02:19:51.000 Okay. Why 1 or 2 a.m.? 02:19:51.000 --> 02:20:42.000 I don’t know. That’s always been my time, where I am most productive and at my peak. I don’t understand why. Ever since I was little, it’s been like that. Yeah. Like just last night, I was writing this—I have an article coming out and I finished that like at 2 in the morning. But I just had that last piece, and I’ve been waiting like two or three days to kind of get my mind in the space to write it. And I just knocked it out at 1 a.m., 2 a.m. (chuckles) Even when I tattooed, when I was tattooing at home, you know, I was trying to hide it. So, I had people come at, you know, midnight or 1 a.m. to tattoo them. Yeah. Because I couldn’t do it in the daytime all the time, because I had school. So, that’s always been like my time. My worst and my best. 02:20:42.000 --> 02:20:43.000 Why worst? 02:20:43.000 --> 02:21:38.000 Um, because, you know, late at night is when you’re alone and you have to deal with your own thoughts. And, you know, think about the past, present, future. That’s when all the pressure comes. And you’re still awake while everybody else is, you know, at peace. Yeah. But I think that that’s helped me grow more than anything. My ability to—A lot of people look at, um—Like I answered this question last night in the article, speaking about what do I do when I get overwhelmed. And those moments are usually when I get the most overwhelmed, I see them more as challenges rather than like problems, you know, like personal problems. Because I feel like if I can go over those humps, it will prepare me for the next one and the next one. It kind of callouses you and prepares you for anything the world brings at you, you know. 02:21:38.000 --> 02:21:39.000 Okay. 02:21:39.000 --> 02:21:41.000 Yeah. 02:21:41.000 --> 02:21:58.000 It sounds to me like you are very much identified with your work, and I don’t necessarily mean your career. But like you like to produce. You’re an action-oriented person. Would you say that’s true? 02:21:58.000 --> 02:22:44.000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, anything—No one can stop me when I have my head or my heart set on doing something. I’ll tell you that. And no one can tell me no. If I know what I’m going to do, I will. And it doesn’t matter how I do it. But I always get there. You know? And I can guarantee that I never put my foot through the door unless I know it’s going to happen. It’s going to work. You know. Because I’m a very careful person. So, I’m not going to waste my time. Or I’m not going to waste any time, any years, or any people’s time unless it’s something that I’m not 110% invested in, or understands, you know. 02:22:44.000 --> 02:22:55.000 Uh-huh. Okay. That’s—I respect that. That’s like my mom, honestly. There’s nothing she cannot do. And if she decides she’s going to do it, then it’s happening. Like nothing will stop her. 02:22:55.000 --> 02:22:57.000 It’s a Vietnamese work ethic. That’s my mom, too, though. 02:22:57.000 --> 02:22:58.000 Yeah? 02:22:58.000 --> 02:26:13.000 Yeah. She’ll work ‘til—I mean she’s still doing nails now. She’s like 67 years old. And she—I remember I used to have to walk her home like when I was six, seven years old. Because, well, she worked maybe like five, six blocks away. So, me and my brother sometimes would have to go get her and walk her home. Because my dad—She didn’t drive. And my dad was like drinking somewhere, I don’t know. So, she would call us. We’d have to go get her, walk her home and all that. And when my brother left, I would have to do it myself. I would have to like skip Halloweens and everything just to do that for her, too. And, you know, she did that every day. She walked to work every day, walked home. And on Fridays, she would clean the house by herself. Clean the bathroom. I would help her. And there was this one night I’ll never forget. I think I was like eight years old. She was sitting on the bed after she got done cleaning the mirrors, and she was like “Oh, I’m so like dizzy.” And I was like “What the heck?” And I thought she was messing around, and she was just laying there on the bed. And I was like “What’s going on?” And I thought she was kidding or faking it. So, I started jumping on the—I was a kid, and I was jumping the bed, and I was like “Wake up, mom” or whatever. And she wouldn’t wake up. And I don’t know what got into me but like automatically I just had that instinct to help her. So, I went to go get some eucalyptus oil or something and I put it in her nose, and some on her stomach. And all of a sudden, she woke up. So, like she was so tired that she like passed out, you know what I mean. And that’s not the first time. She got sick so many times. And she got the flu really bad once when I was about ten years old. And she needed to go to the hospital. And I was scared. I was so young. So, she told me to call—Or she told me to call my brother. At the time, he just had a pager, and he was in the mountains. So, he couldn’t get it. So, I was like “What do I do?” So, I had to call 9-1-1, right? So, I called 9-1-1 and I told them everything. I talked to them for like ten, fifteen minutes. And then my dad came home. And he was drunk, of course. So, he was mad that it was going to be inconvenient for him to go to the hospital or pay for the ambulance or whatever it may have been. So, yeah. So, I was just in the car with him, going there. And he was more worried about him getting a DUI than anything. But yeah. She was pretty bad. She was really sick. She came home, I think, a day after that and it got worse again. So, my brother luckily was at home by the time that he took her. But that was kind of when my brother got fed up with my dad and his stuff. And he wrote him this long letter. I remember seeing it. It was in Vietnamese, basically telling him if he doesn’t get his act together, then my brother is going to take me away. You know what I mean? So, I guess he took that seriously because, you know, it was better for a little bit. But then it got worse again. And that’s when me and my dad started bumping heads, like crazy. 02:26:13.000 --> 02:26:15.000 And how old were you-ish? 02:26:15.000 --> 02:26:53.000 Like eleven, twelve. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I fought my dad when I was twelve. Yeah. And he was so out of it, he didn’t—he doesn’t even remember any of it. Except for like the next day he kind of like with what my mom told him or something. But I remember that night, me and my mom went to my aunt’s house, and she was just talking to her about how she thinks I was like so fed up and I couldn’t take any more and just went crazy, you know, ‘cause I was sick that day and he wasn’t there, you know. So, yeah. That’s when everything changed between me and my dad after that day. 02:26:53.000 --> 02:26:55.000 What do you mean it changed? 02:26:55.000 --> 02:27:46.000 He just looked at me different. I looked at him different, you know. I saw him as more of an enemy than anything, and he didn’t see me as his son anymore. So, I don’t know. Even when I got arrested that one time, he was just like “Oh, just let him, you know, go to jail.” And all that. But, even after my mom left—that’s why I said when my mom did leave, it was very—it took a lot for me to stay because of all that history, you know, which sucks because when I was younger, I remember he was great. He was the one at home taking care of me everyday and—Because that’s when not a lot of his friends were over here yet, you know. My uncles weren’t here yet. And when he got back on that cycle of nhậu (nhau, drinking and socializing) all the time, it just, it got bad. 02:27:46.000 --> 02:27:47.000 Did it ever get better? 02:27:47.000 --> 02:27:48.000 Yeah. It’s better now. 02:27:48.000 --> 02:27:49.000 Okay. 02:27:49.000 --> 02:28:39.000 I mean, honestly, that fight between me and my dad was the best and the worst thing that could happen, you know. Because he finally—I feel bad about it to this day, and I feel guilty because, you know, the way we see our parents is like you’re supposed to respect them and all of the above. But, you know, there comes a point where you just have to cut it. So, yeah, I think it was—it gave him a reality check that, you know, he’s not invincible and he’s not going to keep doing the same thing over and over without nothing happening. So, me getting in that fight with him, my mom leaving, everything at the same time kind of, it just piled up, you know. He started to drink a lot less. And, you know, when I say something he like listens to me now. (laughs) 02:28:39.000 --> 02:28:41.000 Yeah. That’s something. 02:28:41.000 --> 02:29:26.000 Because I’m rational. At the end of the day, you know, like my parents have always told me that even though my brother’s like a doctor and everything, they always tell me like I have the most potential, because I kind of, I raised myself, you know. So, whenever they need something, they ask me. Whenever they need something to get done, they ask me. My dad was diagnosed with cancer two or three years ago, and I kind of guided him through that whole thing. He's in remission now today. But yeah, that was an interesting time too. It made me realize like how precious time really is, you know. He didn’t want to come up to Temecula to live with me, so he stayed in Mira Mesa. But I try to see him once a week or so. 02:29:26.000 --> 02:29:28.000 You come down to Mira Mesa? 02:29:28.000 --> 02:29:31.000 Yeah. So, on the way home, I’ll like stop by there or something. 02:29:31.000 --> 02:29:33.000 Okay. 02:29:33.000 --> 02:29:40.000 Mm-hmm. But, you know, it is weird. As your parents get older, they always want to see you. And, you know, when you’re young, you’re just kind of like passing by all the time. 02:29:40.000 --> 02:29:41.000 Yeah. 02:29:41.000 --> 02:29:43.000 Mm-hmm. 02:29:43.000 --> 02:29:51.000 Yeah. I feel like that’s the difference between being a kid and being an adult, is when you realize how important that relationship is, even if it’s difficult. 02:29:51.000 --> 02:30:46.000 Yeah. And like it or not, you are a reflection of some of those characteristics that your parents hold. I mean, me and my dad, we’re like—Okay, I’m stubborn like my mom. I’m determined all the time like my mom. And, you know, I don’t take no like an answer for her. But I’m also like calm in a way like my dad. I’m always nice, smiling. He’s a very—He was great with like paperwork. He kept all the bills organized and everything. And that kind of helps me with the whole OCD thing. But yeah, he’s always been good in that regard. But my mom was really bad at spending money. I didn’t get that from her. And my dad was the opposite, you know. So, I believe I took on the best qualities of both of them. Yeah. Hopefully. (laughs) 02:30:46.000 --> 02:30:50.000 I assume they never said they’re proud of you. 02:30:50.000 --> 02:31:50.000 No. That’s not—It took me a—Like I had to pull teeth to get my dad to even come to my graduation, my high school graduation. So—Because they’re just so used to it. You know, my brother, he ran the Lion Dance group for so long and he never came out to his show. He—It was always me showing up to his stuff. Like he’s done—he used to sing. He used to do theater stuff for VSA (Vietnamese Student Association) at UCSD (University of California, San Diego). They’ve never been to any of that, you know. But now I feel like my dad is more in tune. Every time I have like a TV interview or something, he wants to watch it or share it with his friends or whatever. So, he’s finally at a point where he’s like “Okay, cool.” But, yeah, they never—I don’t know. Maybe they were just so used to me and my brother doing crazy things that they’re not fazed by it. (laughs) You know what I mean? 02:31:50.000 --> 02:32:02.000 Do you—So, I did like some theater type stuff when I was a kid. And my parents didn’t come to that either. And I don’t know—Do you think on some—Is that a Vietnamese thing? Is that an Asian thing? Like for parents to not— 02:32:02.000 --> 02:33:03.000 I think it’s an Asian thing. Because I got A’s all my life. That doesn’t mean—I didn’t get awarded for any of that. It’s an expectation. You know what I mean? But it’s because they—especially for Vietnamese parents who just came over here, they expect everything to be easier than it is over there. But they don’t really have a true sense of a comparison. Because they’re not—They didn’t go through this, you know? They only went through that. So, you know, they’re just basing it on what they hear and, you know, overall like the—they’re comparing a way of life to a way of living, I guess you could say. I don’t know. Like a new way of living. But it’s definitely very different. The, what do you call it? The social temperature is different. Everything is different here. 02:33:03.000 --> 02:33:15.000 Do you have any thoughts on the social relationship between the Asian community and the Black community? 02:33:15.000 --> 02:33:16.000 Do I have what? 02:33:16.000 --> 02:33:21.000 Do you have any thoughts on that, observations? I’m leaving it open-ended. 02:33:21.000 --> 02:36:52.000 Okay. Well, I’ve been —I’ve heard a lot of things, but I haven’t experienced. I know that they, the Asian community, wanted to support the Black community during the whole George Floyd thing. I even got asked to speak at a George Floyd event which I did not accept. But—Because I didn’t think it was proper for me to—It had nothing to do with me, you know? But I’ve worked with a lot of, you know, Black non-profits and stuff. And they’re great. We support each other and everything. I guess it just depends on which area you’re in. You know? I don’t think they should be going against each other. I don’t—But I also hear that they’re not supporting our movement as much as we supported theirs. But I don’t think that applies to every city or anything. I think they just—Whatever is popular on the news today. And if—you know, we’re going to take what we can get. And if people were only reporting on Black on Asian crime or Asian on Black crime or whatever, that’s all we’re going to hear. I don’t necessarily—I don’t know. I think it’s—I don’t think it should be a conversation that includes only Asians and Blacks but Hispanics and everyone as well, you know what I mean? I think whenever there’s a problem, we should all get together and figure it out. Whether—Even—The white community suffers from the same, you know, poverty and everything as we do. Some of them do, right? So, why is it fair to exclude them when it comes to things like that. When it comes to fighting for like, you know, your healthcare and taxes and all that. Why is it like that? That’s why in my non-profit, I try not to—I didn’t want to exclude anybody. It’s not just for Asians or just for Blacks or Hispanics. It’s for everybody. I’m not going to say no to a white kid just because he’s not a minority. It doesn’t make sense, right? Because then they’ll become the new minority, right? So, that’s what I truly believe. It bothers me that every time, a lot of times, when people refer to my non-profit, they refer to it as, kind of like what you said earlier. Like they refer to what they want it to be. So, they would say like, “Oh. It’s an Asian non-profit.” Or it’s a non-profit for Hispanics on the border or something. And why does it have to be that, though, you know? It’s more like a headline thing than what it really means. So, yeah, at the end of the day, I don’t know, we should all stick together somehow. It’s hard because it’s so competitive in a way, I guess. Even with Asians. Asian non-profits I’ve worked with in the past, they’re oddly competitive when they are working towards the same goal, which is weird. 02:36:52.000 --> 02:36:59.000 I’ve heard that even just about Vietnamese non-profits, like down in the City Heights area, that I’m talking to. There’s so much like in-fighting. 02:36:59.000 --> 02:37:20.000 Yeah. But you know what’s weird? The non-profits that I work with, the community partners that support me the most, they’re all in Orange County. And they barely even know me, you know what I mean? But they share my stuff. They help me out. They work with each other. Everything is kind of like— 02:37:20.000 --> 02:37:21.000 Is it—Is that a coincidence? 02:37:21.000 --> 02:37:48.000 I don’t know. It’s weird because you think they’d be more competitive. Because there’s nothing but Asians up there, right? I don’t know. Maybe it’s competition to stand out in San Diego. Right? Because there’s so few that any time a new one pops up, you know they’re like oh, they’re going to take care of everybody. You know what I mean? But as long as everyone does a different thing, they can do whatever they want. If you’re going for the same goal, you might as well just like (makes a coming together upward sweep with his hands) unite. (chuckles) 02:37:48.000 --> 02:37:56.000 Yeah. I agree. That’s how I feel about all the different like storytelling type initiatives. Like they’re all good. We need more if anything. 02:37:56.000 --> 02:40:00.000 You need a different approach and you just—you can have different approaches for your audience. And you’ll attract different audiences. You know? But like yeah. I mean there’s a lot of podcasts that focus on one people and one people alone. And that’s great but you’re limiting yourself to other stories that could change your perspective like that. I’m a very open like—I try to be as well-rounded as possible. I try to understand everybody, where they come from, their values. I’m not—I don’t know. I used to be all about Viet pride ‘til I die type of deal. I used to hang out with nothing but Vietnamese gangsters. We used to, you know, pick on people that weren’t Vietnamese and hate on people that weren’t and, you know, protect our own. All the guys that just came here from Vietnam I would like take care of them. But as I grew up, I realized we all need each other, you know. Whether you’re Vietnamese or not. My wife, her family is—I’m like the only Asian in-law. You know? She’s Laotian, but all her brothers and sisters are married to non-Asians pretty much. And ironically, I’m the only Asian. So, that was like kind of weird for me. It was like “Whoa. This is different.” You know? Because my family is primarily, you know—my sister-in-law is Vietnamese, all my cousins. Well, I have one cousin that his wife is French. But same thing, you know? (chuckles) So, there’s pretty much just French and Vietnamese people. Yeah. And then I have a Black cousin that was adopted by my aunt in France back then. So, my family has always been pretty like essentially an open book. Accept anyone, you know. We don’t have nothing to hide. We love when new people come around so we can share like our food, culture, all that. Yeah. 02:40:00.000 --> 02:40:02.000 That’s nice. 02:40:02.000 --> 02:40:18.000 Mm-hmm. Because, you know, we grew up, especially in San Diego, we grew up in a melting pot. So, it’s not like we’re in freaking Utah or something. Then that’s like a different ballgame. Um, but yeah. We’re lucky. Pretty soon, I’m pretty sure every state will be similar. 02:40:18.000 --> 02:40:20.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. 02:40:20.000 --> 02:40:23.000 Yeah. (nods) 02:40:23.000 --> 02:40:24.000 Okay. Thank you for sharing. 02:40:24.000 --> 02:40:25.000 What else? (laughs) 02:40:25.000 --> 02:40:27.000 Um, I have more questions. How are you feeling energy-wise? 02:40:27.000 --> 02:40:28.000 No, I’m good. I’m good. Yeah. 02:40:28.000 --> 02:40:36.000 You’re good? Okay. Tell me about the non-profit (The Doan Foundation). 02:40:36.000 --> 02:40:43.000 Okay. So, it started—I started it August of 2022. 02:40:43.000 --> 02:40:44.000 Oh. It’s really new. 02:40:44.000 --> 02:45:55.000 Mm-hmm. So, I kept replaying something my dad told me when I was just—I think I was just taking him out to eat. And he—Obviously, my brother’s successful. I guess I’m successful now too. So, you know, he was just telling me like he’s glad that me and my brother have figured out that we made something of ourselves. Because, you know, he had cancer at the time. So, he was just like, you know, “If I pass away, like I wish I had something to give you guys, but I don’t.” And, you know, my dad has been struggling—Like he’s been working for, what, since 1993, pretty much the same company and, you know, getting paid through retirement. With all that hard work, he’s just making like $1,000 a month. How are you going to live on that, right? So, you know, he’s frustrated with that. He’s like “What am I going to do with this. Like I can’t even afford rent with this amount, you know.” And he just was venting to me. So, I realized like—It made me reflect on why our families came here in the first place, to give their kids a better life which he succeeded in. You know what I mean? You know, so, I told myself, you know, it’s pretty amazing that a family that came over here with literally nothing and grew up on freaking welfare and Section 8 and eating government cheese and, you know, cereal box samples, can get to a place like this. So, I wanted to create an organization where I could, I guess, motivate other kids who were in the same position as I was to do more. Or motivate their parents to realize that they can give that to their children just through, you know, being persistent and giving them a stable environment to grow up in. So, at first, I just wanted to do some scholarships. Because I was donating money yearly to just random non-profits. But I caught myself thinking about where this money was actually going, and I just—(shrugs shoulders) You don’t know, right? So, I was like “Okay, I got to do it myself.” And that’s my problem. Every time I have an idea, I just implement it immediately. So, I told my wife one night, it was like “You know what? I’m going to start a non-profit.” And she was like “Okay.” She’s not surprised anymore until like I actually do it. And the next day I did it. So, I put in the paperwork and everything. And then I just got going. I wasn’t going to do anything big. It was just going to be me pretty much funding it. Every year maybe some donor or something will want to. But I wasn’t trying to promote it or make it big or anything. But one of my friends, one of my older friends, he’s been working in the sector for over thirty years. So, he was like “You need help with anything, let me know. Just ask me, you know.” So, I have too much pride. So, I like, like I said, I like learning everything myself before I even ask the question. I don’t want to sound stupid ; you know. So, when I did need some confirmation on things, I finally called him. I told him what’s going on. I showed him the website. He looked at everything and he’s like “Dude, everything looks good.” He’s like “What do you need help with?” I’m like “I don’t know. You need to tell me.” Anyway, it’s been like that for a while, and I was telling him like “I just want to give away a few scholarships and then just go from there and build it up slowly.” He’s like “Then why do it at all?” So, at that point, I was like that’s true. I’m not known as the guy to go soft on anything, you know? I’m very all or nothing. So, I was like “alright.” So, he made the offer. So, I made him my chair, or I was going to make him my chair, okay? And then, he introduced me to a few people. And that’s when I met Thảo (Thao). So, Thảo Hà (Thao Ha). And it took a while, like four dinners, but she finally said she wanted to be a part of it, and she wanted to be chair. So, she became chair and then my other friend, he’s vice-chair and so forth. So, now that I have other people involved, now I have to go all in, right? So, I had to navigate my way strategically. There’s a lot of grants and stuff that aren’t available to non-profits that have been established under a year. So, I found out that the hard way after looking a lot. So, I had to rely on individual donors. So, I didn’t realize how many people I knew or how many businesses I know. And I kind of reached out to everybody. And we’ve raised like over $30,000 so far. It’s only been about six months. Yeah. And I funded ten scholarships already. 02:45:55.000 --> 02:45:56.000 Oh, my goodness! 02:45:56.000 --> 02:47:27.000 And I’m getting—The kids are going to get chosen on April 1st. Yeah. So, at the moment, I’m just focusing on southern California because I don’t feel—I would love to do all of California. But it just makes things less, I guess you could say, personal. I want to do more of like the kids in your backyard, kind of deal, you know. I respect organizations that are trying to solve global problems like world hunger. But I don’t feel like there’s an immediate resolution to that, you know. I wanted to do something that would affect these teenagers immediately, so they could like move on and take the next step. It’s more like a—It’s a pedestal. That’s what the “foundation” in Foundation stands for. Like you being the foundation for their futures. It’s not a family Foundation, you know. Because people use the terms interchangeably. So, sometimes people get confused. But, yeah, that’s what I mean when I say “foundation.” And yeah, I mean, hopefully we can do crazy things. I’m a guy with really crazy ideas. So, we’ll see what happens. But I really want to do something that’s related to the arts but includes every culture you can think of in one, you know. Have you ever been to the Multicultural Fair? In San Diego? In Linda Vista? 02:47:27.000 --> 02:47:28.000 No. 02:47:28.000 --> 02:47:43.000 They have it once a year. But it’s just like a little street fair thing. It’s very, really small. When I was young, I used to think it was huge. But, you know, it’s just food and some stuff. But I want to do that like on steroids. In the Convoy district somehow. 02:47:43.000 --> 02:47:46.000 Like in a multicultural fair? 02:47:46.000 --> 02:48:13.000 Mm-hmm. I want there to be like—I want them to shut down the streets and have a stage there for all different performers, every culture, all the food, different foods you can think of and all that. And kids could come and enjoy it, probably like during Christmas time or something, you know? But I want to do something like that for the city in the near future. (chuckles) But it’s a crazy undertaking. 02:48:13.000 --> 03:47:16.000 Have you spoken to the API (Asian Pacific Islander) Coalition? 03:47:16.000 --> 03:47:18.000 Mmm, I don’t think so. 03:47:18.000 --> 03:47:23.000 Okay. I can connect you if you want to but it’s basically the San Diego Asian API. 03:47:23.000 --> 03:48:38.000 Okay. There’s so many in San Diego that are named like different that are similar. But Nam from the Convoy district just sponsored our event. So, I know he is connected with that area. 03:48:38.000 --> 03:48:40.000 Okay. 03:48:40.000 --> 03:48:47.000 So, I don’t know. I’ll figure it out. But I’m trying to get everyone together to do something basically. I think it should be good. 03:48:47.000 --> 03:48:49.000 Is it Nam from Viet Vote? 03:48:49.000 --> 03:48:54.000 I don’t know. He owns Cross Street Chicken and Beer. 03:48:54.000 --> 03:48:58.000 Oh, okay. Maybe not the same. I don’t know. Okay. I mean that’s a common name, so— 03:48:58.000 --> 03:49:00.000 But my friend Nguyet was in Viet Vote. 03:49:00.000 --> 03:49:01.000 Who? 03:49:01.000 --> 03:49:04.000 Nguyệt (Nguyet). You don’t know Nguyệt Phạm (Nguyet Pham) ? 03:49:04.000 --> 03:49:16.000 I’ve never heard of him. Um, there’s also the—Well, we can talk about this more offline. But there’s also the Oceanside Southern California API Festival coming up next month. I’m on the planning committee for that. 03:49:16.000 --> 03:49:17.000 Sick. 03:49:17.000 --> 03:49:22.000 So, there’s always opportunities to talk to event planners. 03:49:22.000 --> 03:50:55.000 Yeah. I like to go to different—I mean, I would love to have the time. But I like going to all these different events just to see what’s going on, you know what I mean? Where people are doing different—turnout, how people absorb it. I have—I’ve been to a lot of different types of charity events from different cultures. And different initiatives, whether it comes to health or whatever. And it’s all really, really different. For say the really Vietnamese charities, super unorganized. But they always meet their goal. Right? Because everyone knows that they’re there to give money and eat and dance, whatever, sing or whatever. You know, I’ve been to a Japanese one. It was a little more strict, a little more Americanized. It was just too professional in a way. You know what I mean? There was no personal touch to it, like a sense of family. And then, you know, I’ve been to events. The events are different here and Orange County too, very different vibe. And I’m about to go to one hosted by the Ronald McDonald House Charities, which is going to be like the most off-the-wall one that I’m going to be going to. Because it’s super different, you know. There’s this one side for medical purpose for kids, and— 03:50:55.000 --> 03:50:57.000 I used to be a camp counselor for them. 03:50:57.000 --> 03:51:36.000 Yeah. And their organization has been there for forever. And they were super cool with me when I did the toy drive thing with them over Christmas. And you can feel peoples like intentions or ingenuity, you know. When I walked in there, no one talked to me different, anything, you know. We had a full conversation. They were the ones who I talked to a lot about—Because I have a problem with exploitation of—You know, on social media you see those videos where somebody will give like homeless people money and all that. 03:51:36.000 --> 03:51:37.000 Yeah. They’re filming themselves giving. 03:51:37.000 --> 03:52:45.000 Yeah. I don’t like that. But I understand now because of those women at the Ronald McDonald Foundation. Because I told them, when they told me to take a picture in front of the sign or whatever, I’m like “Ah, I don’t need to.” You know? Like it’s not important to me. And she’s like “You have to.” Like why? And she’s like “Because you have to show other people and lead by example. And if you don’t show them, give them the visual on this, then they’re not going to want to give to me or you.” You know what I mean? So, people need that motivator in order to do it. Because there will always be more people inspired by it than are disgusted by it, I guess you could say. So, at that point, I was like “Oh, okay, I’ll take a picture.” (both laugh). Yeah. But, um, yeah, it gave me a different perspective, you know? Because I give people money all the time. But I don’t, you know—I’m not going to write on Facebook like “Oh yeah. It was a good day. I gave this person $100.” Whatever, you know. Yeah, I hate that. (laughs) I hate it a lot. So, where were we going with that? 03:52:45.000 --> 03:52:49.000 Uh, we were talking about—You were telling me about the Foundation. 03:52:49.000 --> 03:54:21.000 The Foundation. Okay. So, yeah, I mean I’ve already had people try to ask me to implement programs at local elementary, middle schools. But I haven’t the slightest clue how—that’s not my field. You know what I mean? I’m sure I can make it happen. But at the moment, I just want to focus on teenagers because that’s what I know. What are—The life that they’re going through, the struggles and everything, I can relate to that most because I was—you know, that wasn’t too long ago for me. Versus I don’t know how the curriculum is in middle schools now. I don’t know how to deal with kids that age. Um, yeah. I was like crazy when I was that age. So, I don’t know. But I do want an, when I do expand, you know, education committee and all that. Hopefully we get there. You know, I’ve always had this weird—Like I guess I second guess myself a lot with, you know, whether—I second guessed whether the organization was going to get anywhere. Or whether people were confused? Or dissuaded by the name? Or the—how the mission wasn’t as romantic as these other ones, whatever. But now I’m finally content with the fact that I’m doing what I know is right and what I’m leaving and, you know, just hope that people are on the same page as me, you know. 03:54:21.000 --> 03:54:25.000 Do you feel like you’ve found your people? Who understand the Foundation? 03:54:25.000 --> 03:54:58.000 Yeah, yeah. I mean it’s the first year and you never know. Of course, everyone’s going to support you. I mean, that’s not true actually. But people want to support you on that first year. And if you do well, then they’ll keep doing it. If you mess up, then you’ll never see them again. So, I mean, it’s been six months and I’ve done okay. So, we’ll see what happens. But anyone that knows me knows that they can trust me and knows that if I do something, it’s going to be the right way. You know what I mean? 03:54:58.000 --> 03:55:02.000 Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say that too. I’m sure you just have to decide and then you’ll just make it happen. 03:55:02.000 --> 03:55:16.000 Yeah. Yeah. Luckily, everyone came together for this and, you know, most people are donating like DJ services, photography, whatever. So, there’s a lot of community getting together for this which is cool. 03:55:16.000 --> 03:55:24.000 That’s great. And the scholarships. Tell me more. Like are these like scholarships for the teenagers to go to college to study art? Or— 03:55:24.000 --> 03:56:45.000 My scholarships actually can be used for like barber school if they want. Yeah. Or any type of technical school. Because a lot of the kids in these neighborhoods, sometimes they don’t have the option or the time to, you know, put all their focus into their studies in high school. Sometimes they have to start working at fifteen, sixteen years old because they’ve got to take care of their family. Or they might need like a $500 scholarship to get an airplane to fly to South Carolina where they’ll be going to school. You know? They might not be able to afford that. Or they might have to help their parents with the one last phone bill or something before they can go off and do their thing. You know? So, that’s what a lot of other scholarship funds, programs, they don’t think about. They don’t think about these other jobs that—like becoming a barber, you know. No one thinks about that. But, you know, you go through a little bit of school and it’ll provide you something to, you know, a tool to use for the rest of your life. Where you can always go back to it if you want to and it can be a very prosperous career if you put your head into it, yeah, just like doing nails. I mean there’s no school for becoming a tattoo artist but, you know— 03:56:45.000 --> 03:56:49.000 Oh. There’s no school for becoming a tattoo artist. I never thought about that. 03:56:49.000 --> 03:57:42.000 Well, technically no. There are here and there. They’re trying to pop up. But they’re very frowned upon. Because it’s literally like a few weeks course or something. And you’ve got to pay a lot of money for it and what do you really learn, you know? I wouldn’t say they hazed apprentices back then, but it was much more difficult. And the caliber that you had to reach was a lot higher than it is now. You know what I mean? Very hard to get into the industry back then, but easy to stand out. And now it’s easy to get in, hard to stand out. Because everyone’s trying to get into it. I’m just lucky I’m like grandfathered in, at this point. I was like the last generation of like the original, like old dudes. Yeah. 03:57:42.000 --> 03:57:43.000 Does that mean you’re an old dude? 03:57:43.000 --> 03:58:16.000 No. (Ho laughs) But most of them were. I was so young. That’s what gave me the advantage. You know, I had more time to grow. A lot of those guys now that had tattooed in the ‘90s, early 2000s, they kind of—they never changed their ways. They never caught up with the times. They’re just so stuck in their old ways and they’re so stubborn that, you know, they just inevitably—their careers just take a dive. 03:58:16.000 --> 03:58:20.000 When you say, “stuck in their old ways,” do you mean like in terms of like technical skills? 03:58:20.000 --> 03:59:48.000 Mm-hmm. That, technology has changed. The tools have changed. You know, you’re not going to catch a 60-year-old tattoo artist posting on social media every day, right? Yeah. I mean that’s where your portfolio is. That’s where everything is now. You’ve got to interact with your customers. If you’re rude or something, it’s going to immediately go on Yelp. And it’s hard. It is really hard for them. Yeah, I have guys I looked up to back then that they’re just—they still—they’re actually tattooing worse now than they used to because, you know, I feel like they’re trying to catch up to these younger guys, their styles and everything, that they just end up losing their own style. And I don’t know, it sucks. But that’s just the way it is now. Either you survive, or you don’t. You know what I mean? But I guess the older guys, their hustler’s mentality was a lot more prominent than the kids now. I don’t think the kids that are getting into it—They’re not built as hard as the tattoo artists that grew up back then. That’s why they’re able to stay in the industry for so long, you know. A lot of kids now, it’s so easy for them to learn how to do it on YouTube, whatever. And then they’ll just give up if they get bored or something. They never really stick with it. 03:59:48.000 --> 03:59:49.000 Okay. 03:59:49.000 --> 04:00:29.000 And then, another thing is back then you didn’t really have any tattoo artists that were like art students in college or something. And now, you have people just graduating out of college and they’re like crazy phenomenal because, you know, they went to art school rather than tattoo school underground somewhere in the basement. Yeah. So, they were frowned upon for a while too. Because it’s like the same thing with the military when people that graduate and become automatically like officers in the Navy or something. And you’ve got other guys who have been there since they were 18 years old and working their way up. Same deal. I mean, I don’t really care. Like if you’re talented, you’re talented. I’ll teach you, you know? 04:00:29.000 --> 04:00:30.000 Okay. 04:00:30.000 --> 04:00:31.000 Yeah. 04:00:31.000 --> 04:00:33.000 So, do you like providing mentorship? 04:00:33.000 --> 04:01:19.000 Um, I did for a while. I just took on my last apprentice. She just got done two months ago. I’m not going to teach anyone else for a while. Yeah. Because it takes up a lot of my time and I don’t feel like it’s fair to take someone on if I don’t have the time to do it. Or my full attention, you know. Yeah. And a lot of people are going—they’re like charging to teach people now. Whereas before, you just earned it. It’s free. They just had to put in the work, like throw out the trash and all that. It's like a full-ride scholarship. But then now, yeah, a lot of artists are charging for apprenticeships which I still don’t agree with that, you know. Yeah. 04:01:19.000 --> 04:01:26.000 So, then, if somebody wanted to become a tattoo artist, really all they need to do is find a mentor who will let them apprentice. 04:01:26.000 --> 04:02:17.000 Yep. And before, it was like one in a million. Now, as long as you have money, you just pay somebody, and they’ll teach you. You know, so it makes—it dilutes the industry a little bit. But I believe if you’re going to—you know, if your work is good enough, you’re always going to stand out. Right? Yeah, but people like Photoshopping fake tattoos online and stuff now too. So, it makes it really weird. Yeah, so people have a unrealistic expectation sometimes of how a tattoo should look, how it should be done. They watch these shows, and they think that’s exactly how it’s going to be. Or the drama and all that. But, I don’t know. I guess the good thing is society doesn’t frown on it anymore, even in Asia. I heard Vietnam has a bunch of tattoo shops now. 04:02:17.000 --> 04:02:19.000 Yeah. I’ve heard that too. 04:02:19.000 --> 04:02:38.000 Yeah. So, that’s a good thing for the industry itself. Because before it was nothing but—people just looked at it as bikers, gangsters, and basically all the bad people in the world was a tattooed people, you know. 04:02:38.000 --> 04:02:41.000 Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds very different now. 04:02:41.000 --> 04:02:44.000 Mm-hmm. Even you have tattoos. (laughs) 04:02:44.000 --> 04:02:57.000 Even I do! Um, okay (pause) I have like six more questions. But like we’ve been sitting here a while, so I don’t want to wear you out completely. 04:02:57.000 --> 04:02:58.000 What’s the questions? 04:02:58.000 --> 04:03:20.000 Tell me—I want to know how you’ve grown. Like what are some big lessons you’ve learned? And I don’t necessarily mean from childhood to adulthood. But it could be within the last week, or within the last decade. Like how have you grown? You’ve grown a lot because of what you went through as a kid, but — 04:03:20.000 --> 04:05:33.000 I don’t know. That’s a hard question. I guess I’ve learned not to expect anything from anybody, you know. For example, okay, let’s say you’re my apprentice today. You’re my student, okay? Let’s say I help you grow. I help you, you know, establish this career for yourself that’s going to help you out for the rest of your life. And you’re doing that with me. I’m helping you for two years and then you’re finally done, right? My—Most people would say, “Oh, oh you owe me. I did this for you. And, you know, you’ve got to work for me for this amount of years and I’m going to ruin you if you leave.” All that stuff. But that’s not me. You know, I was able to see that from a third person point of view while seeing my business partner think that way of my employees, you know. So, I’m glad that I was able to see that because, basically, you know, people grow, and people move on. You can’t expect somebody to be there no matter what. And, basically, it’d be detrimental to their own success just because they feel they owe you something? It doesn’t make sense. So, I’m glad I learned that early on because that’s helped me a lot in dealing with artists that work for me and respecting them and understanding that nothing is forever, you know. And you’ve always got to be ready for them to grow. And that’s fine. And you should be there to help them grow rather than, you know, rather than step down on them. And, you know, as long as you put that energy out there, everything goes good, you know. And people don’t want to stay because they’re forced to. They want to stay because they want to, right? That applies to everything, relationships, you know, everything. 04:05:33.000 --> 04:05:50.000 I guess, when you’re talking throughout this whole time, and when I met you, I get a sense of contentment as you said, but also confidence in your future, because of these bricks that you’re laying out. Like you seem very confident that everything will turn out the way it should. 04:05:50.000 --> 04:05:51.000 Yes. 04:05:51.000 --> 04:05:54.000 Does that feel right to you? Or do you still doubt? 04:05:54.000 --> 04:08:43.000 Mmm, yes and no. But even if I doubt myself, I’m a problem solver. So, I don’t—My wife always tells me like “Oh, you won’t tell me what you’re going through.” Or whatever. I’d say because if I don’t have a solution, then there’s no point in talking about it. Because talking about it is not going to make me come to the solution. I’d rather use the time worrying about it to come up with a way to solve it. You know, I’m very–I’m good at compartmentalizing my thoughts. So, that’s why I can work on like thirty things at the same time and I’m fine. Whereas other people would go freaking crazy, right. But I’m used to that because I’ve always been so interested in so many things. And I’ve always told people as a tattoo artist, it was really hard for me to be good at the beginning stages because I was trying to do everything. Because the artists now, they specialize in one thing and one thing only. Like, you know, one guy might be a portrait artist, but he might suck with line work or something. One guy might do American traditional tattoos and he sucks at shading. One guy does Asian work, and he has no clue how to do like very fine line stuff. And, you know, that path for them was the correct path for them. And it might have only taken them a year or two, whatever, if that’s all they were doing. Whereas me, I was trying to do lettering, Chicano work, Asian work, realism. I was trying to do all of it at the same time in a parallel fashion, so, it took me a lot longer to master all of them at the same time. That’s the same way I am for business, like trying to navigate my tattoo business. Trying to navigate my clothing line. Helping my wife with her beauty line. Doing a non-profit. (laughs) And, yeah, doing everything else too. So, it’s definitely crazy. But, you know, I encounter problems here and there and little hiccups. But I work through it. I solve it, you know. There’s no point in—I just feel like people waste too much time worrying about things that haven’t happened or may not ever happen. Yeah. There’s no time, basically. Time is the most precious thing that you have. You can’t get it back. You can’t make more of it. Yep. So, people ask me why I stay up so late every day. Why I wake up so early. Why I’m doing so much. And honestly, it’s because I’m already—I’m turning 33. So, I only have maybe, I don’t know, fifteen years before my business dies down a little bit, maybe popularity. So, I have to make my mark now to buy myself more years. You know what I mean? 04:08:43.000 --> 04:08:47.000 Yeah. Yeah, you’re investing in future you, it sounds like. 04:08:47.000 --> 04:08:48.000 Yep. 04:08:48.000 --> 04:09:09.000 Okay. Going back to the styles of art, is there any style or anything that you wish you could do more of? I mean, I’ve seen what you get a lot of. 04:09:09.000 --> 04:09:10.000 Mmm, not really. I mean, I like to do everything. That’s the problem. That’s why my waiting list is so long. I take on every project that comes to me. It’s really rare where I’ll say “Aw, I can’t do it.” 04:09:10.000 --> 04:09:12.000 Why would you say no to someone? 04:09:12.000 --> 04:10:13.000 If it’s like a dumb idea, or one that—Like I had a guy come in one time. And—it was a white guy—he had a consultation with me. He wanted a Buddha tattooed on him, right? And he was wearing like a cross necklace, so I knew he wasn’t Buddhist. But he wanted a Buddha tattoo on him, and I asked him where he wanted it. And he said on his leg. And I’m like “You can’t get it on your leg. It’s like disrespectful.” And he said he wanted bud leaves like around it, like marijuana leaves. And I’m like “Okay.” (laughs) Like that makes no sense. And I’m like “I don’t know if I’m the right guy for you, for that.” But, yeah, usually, you know, it’s hard because if you say no, then you’re rejecting a customer. And if you say yes, then you’re going against your own like morals. So, the only thing I can do is drive them away with my price. So, I told him I was going to charge him like $3,000 or something. And he said no. That’s it. 04:10:13.000 --> 04:10:14.000 Okay. 04:10:14.000 --> 04:10:25.000 So, it doesn't make me the bad guy. But that’s how you turn those things. But yeah. Ideas like that. Or people want to get each other’s names and they’ve only been together for like a week. I don’t do those. 04:10:25.000 --> 04:10:26.000 Do people ask you for that? 04:10:26.000 --> 04:10:43.000 Yeah. Yeah. But I usually make them wait, wait about two years. And I’ll give them like a ridiculous price too, you know. For them to think about it a second time. Usually, they break up within the next few months. (Ho laughs) Yeah. It happens a lot. 04:10:43.000 --> 04:10:44.000 Oh my god. 04:10:44.000 --> 04:10:48.000 Yep. That’s why we don’t take walk-ins. Because people make those irrational decisions, you know. 04:10:48.000 --> 04:10:51.000 Mmm. Okay. Yeah. 04:10:51.000 --> 04:10:53.000 (chuckles) We’re responsible. 04:10:53.000 --> 04:11:09.000 Right. This is going to be a weird question. But you’re pretty open about your past. And you’re writing this memoir. It’s going to be published. 04:11:09.000 --> 04:11:10.000 Yeah. 04:11:10.000 --> 04:11:16.000 And your family knows that you share all this info. 04:11:16.000 --> 04:13:20.000 Mmm, I don’t know. I don’t know if they’re even interested. That’s the weird thing. I mean, they know that I do interviews and articles and stuff. But they’re just kind of like—Like I said. It’s nothing new to them. In their brain, they’re just like “Oh, yeah. He’s doing that. That’s cool.” You know. I guess they just don’t get excited about anything. So, I don’t even know. I don’t think my brother knows I’m writing a book. But I actually don’t want my family to read my book because it’s going to—I mean, I know what it’s about. I know how it’s going to affect them. But they don’t know that yet. And like if they read it, it’s going to mess them up, you know. Because it’s not like a blame game, type of calling people out thing. It’s just–it’s the truth, you know. And I’ve never told the truth in a very raw way, like I’m going to do in there. I’ve always kind of like made it more from a broad statement or gave people little details here and there. But that thing—what I’m writing is pretty much uncut, all the way. Yeah. It was pretty crazy to write it. Because I haven’t—Some of the thoughts that I wrote about in there, I haven’t thought about it for, you know, twenty or thirty years. Not thirty years, but twenty, twenty-five years or so. So, it was weird. I even had to stop midway because it was too much for me. Like overwhelming wise. So, I stopped. I haven’t written in it. I haven’t written for about eight months. Yeah. I had my editor edit what I have so far, though. And I haven’t even looked at that yet. I’m just kind of like—I’m all over the place right now. But I feel like when the time is right, I’m going to sit down and finish it, you know. Because the half-book that I wrote which is already 35,000 words or something, I wrote all that within like two weeks. And that’s it. Yeah. So, whenever I get that urge again to do it, I’m pretty sure I’m just going to knock it out. 04:13:20.000 --> 04:13:24.000 So, what gives you that urge, that motivation? 04:13:24.000 --> 04:14:34.000 I don’t know. That’s the weird thing. Yeah. I just kind of know when the time is right, you know. Yeah, it’s weird. I guess when everything else kind of settles down, I’ll be able to focus my thoughts more on that. Because right now, I’m doing like these news interview articles in—and it’s all kind of similar themed. So, I’m having to use my words and my energy to do those interviews. And then, by the time I’m ready to write my book, I can’t really—you know, I don’t want to keep repeating because I get bored easily. So, if I keep repeating that same thought like all week, I’ll be like when I’m writing it, I’m going to feel bored. Therefore, I feel like my reader is going to feel bored. But, I mean, I know that’s not the case. Because the reader has never read it before. But, you know, that’s like me making freaking boiled eggs every day for three days, you know. It’s—If I’m not interested in it, I’m not going to want to make it interesting or sound interesting. And I end up going back and changing everything anyway. I’m very hard on myself. 04:14:34.000 --> 04:14:36.000 Well, yeah. Yeah. You are. 04:14:36.000 --> 04:15:11.000 Yeah. (chuckles) I’m super particular. So, everything has to be perfect or close to perfect, pretty much. Because people—growing up, people always expected the worst from me, you know what I mean? Or the minimum, because of what I went through. So, now everything that I do has to go above and beyond what people expect. Right? And that’s that pressure, especially the pressure that your parents kind of—They kind of like instill that in you, growing up here in America. So, yeah. 04:15:11.000 --> 04:15:30.000 You do a lot of giving. Like you do things for your community. You give money. You do interviews like this or with the news outlets or whatever. Your work with the Model Minority Project. You really give a lot of yourself. 04:15:30.000 --> 04:15:32.000 Yeah. I try. 04:15:32.000 --> 04:15:34.000 And you expect a lot of yourself. 04:15:34.000 --> 04:16:18.000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I have my brother to thank for that. He was—He’s tried to be as well-rounded his whole life and tried to show me like who I should be, what I should do, what I should strive to be, you know what I mean? And although I am—the way I grew up is totally different from him, I still kind of—I’m in the same place now. You know, it’s weird. This guy used to make me study the dictionary every day, right? And so, I would have to learn two words from the dictionary and remember it. And I would have to tell him what they were every night. And if I forgot, then he would kick me out of the house, at like six, seven years old. 04:16:18.000 --> 04:16:20.000 Wow! Would you ever forget? 04:16:20.000 --> 04:16:47.000 I forgot once. But then I remembered after I was outside for like two hours. Yeah. (laughs) So, he would do that. I would never want to ask him for help on homework because every time I had one problem, he would create twenty more problems to make sure I would never have that problem again. So, yeah. (laughs) So, that’s what I did. So, perfection is what I always strive for pretty much. Mm-hmm. 04:16:47.000 --> 04:16:49.000 And do you feel like you accomplish it? 04:16:49.000 --> 04:19:04.000 Mmm, I don’t know. Who really knows. You know what I mean? That’s a hard one. I think I’ve–I’m the best in—I don’t know how to explain this. I guess I made the best of what I had, to its maximum potential. Yeah. And now I’m in a place where I can expand on that, you know. For so long, I only dealt with my own people, friends, community, and the tattoo community. And I wasn’t able to break through the walls of like everybody else. And now, I’m finally like there. So, it can only go up from here, I guess. But in a different way. I knew I couldn’t get to everybody by being a tattoo artist or purely a tattoo artist. Having people see me as an artist, though, it expanded the audience a little more. And now that the non-profit is in the picture, it’s going to—things are going to be different for the better, you know. I’m able to amplify the voices of kids. I’m able to bring attention to how important like cultural, our cultural arts are, and kind of give hope in a time where everyone is just thinking about nothing but negativity and all the craziness going on in the world, you know. Like I never put anything out there that’s negative. I don’t post like negative quotes online or shame anybody or anything. That’s just not who I am. I believe the best revenge is kindness. You know, it doesn’t matter how society looks at you. It’s not your job to force them to respect you or any of that. It is your job to change the, I guess, the perspective. Change the taboos. Yeah. I think that was about it. (laughs) 04:19:04.000 --> 04:19:06.000 Okay. Okay. 04:19:06.000 --> 04:19:08.000 What else you got? 04:19:08.000 --> 04:19:30.000 Okay. So, three more questions. I’m not making any more notes because I keep thinking of things. Actually, four questions. Okay, then I’m done. What do people not know about you? You’re so open about everything. What’s something we don’t know yet. 04:19:30.000 --> 04:19:32.000 Mmm. I don’t know. 04:19:32.000 --> 04:19:34.000 (laughs) You’re like “I can’t share for a reason.” 04:19:34.000 --> 04:20:53.000 Well, one thing people don’t know really—Most people that look the most put together or they look like they know what they’re doing, usually don’t know what they’re doing, you know. I—When I get into—Obviously, you can’t—You can study, you know, airplanes all day. Like you can know every part on a airplane. You can do simulations. You can do all that. But that doesn’t mean you’re going to be able to fly the airplane. You got to—You don’t know until you get on. That’s the same thing in business or life, everything else, you know. I guess everything that I talk about, I’ve done already rather than I’m going to do, you know. I rarely talk about like “Oh, yeah. You know, I’m going to go—I’m going to buy a Ferrari next year.” Or something. Like everything that I try to teach people in order to help them is stuff that I’ve already been through, you know. And I’ve—Mistakes I’ve already made or what not. I’m not going to sell somebody something that, you know, I didn’t buy myself. But yeah. I think that’s my biggest secret. You just—You don’t know what you’re getting into until you do it. Most of the time when I get into something, I have no clue what I’m doing, you know. You just kind of figure it out along the way. 04:20:53.000 --> 04:21:01.000 Yeah. Okay. Okay. That’s a good segue into my next question. What is next for you? What haven’t you done that you want to do? 04:21:01.000 --> 04:21:04.000 Mmm, I don’t know. I don’t think there’s anything— 04:21:04.000 --> 04:21:06.000 Even just like—Really? 04:21:06.000 --> 04:21:10.000 Yeah. I don’t think there’s anything that I want. I mean, I want to do like crazy stuff. So— 04:21:10.000 --> 04:21:13.000 Tell me. Like even just like a vacation that you haven’t taken yet. 04:21:13.000 --> 04:21:15.000 I’m not really into vacations. 04:21:15.000 --> 04:21:16.000 Okay. You’re a workaholic. 04:21:16.000 --> 04:22:07.000 Because they—I feel like they put me further behind. And that stresses me out even more when I get back. That’s the problem. I’ll take a vacation for two, three days but if I do a week, then I have a week of people to respond to, too many projects to do. And it just, it makes me, it messes up my rhythm. You know what I mean? Like I can’t stop my momentum when I have it. Well, I have it all the time, but when I do have it like in a great amount, I can’t just “Oh, I’m going to take three days and not do anything and come back.” It actually makes me—It messes up my mind. It makes me like depressed. It—I don’t know. I don’t know how to explain it. When I’m home for more than two days, I feel like I didn’t do anything, I’m useless and all that. That’s crazy. 04:22:07.000 --> 04:22:09.000 Do you ever rest then? 04:22:09.000 --> 04:22:40.000 I do. I mean I’m a very—I’m more keen on consistency than, you know—I’ll do like four or five days—I mean four or five days—four or five hours of sleep every day. That’s all I really need. And then I’ll go through my routine, you know. I mean my routine might not be the same every day. Obviously, I have different tattoos every day. Sometimes, I’ll have five, ten minutes here and there and I’ll try and do my other like microtasks in between. But I always get everything done. So— 04:22:40.000 --> 04:22:48.000 Okay. Okay. Two more questions. What are you the most proud of that you’ve done? 04:22:48.000 --> 04:25:02.000 Mmm, it’s probably establishing my non-profit. Because it’s—I, when I started tattooing, it was purely about my survival. I needed money, you know. And as I was able to make money off of it—you know, as your early twenties, you really don’t know what your purpose is. You don’t think about, you know, the 401k and all that. And you’re not taught that in the neighborhood either. You’re not taught how to spend your money, how to invest. I used all my financial aid on like car parts, okay. It’s like $7,000 worth. And I don’t even have that car anymore. But it was dumb. But no one told me it was dumb, right? So, I kept trying to find a purpose. And that purpose always changed. I mean, you know, it could have been like nice cars which I got, and I got bored of. It didn’t make me happy. It could have been like buying the most expensive food. I’ve tried all of it, didn’t make me happy. It became, you know, teaching others how to make a career for themselves. And that was–that made me happy. So, I was just like “Okay. What do I do when tattooing itself is not enough?” So, that’s when I needed another purpose. And that purpose was building other people like me, basically, yeah, to hopefully come together. And, you know, by me giving to them hopefully they do the same in return for the next generation after them. Because every—we’re losing our—I think we’re losing our culture right now. I think that the kids are just too lazy and uninterested. And parents are feeding into it, I guess you could say. I see more and more the parents are having to learn how to speak English to communicate with their kids, rather than their kids having to learn Vietnamese to communicate with their parents, right? 04:25:02.000 --> 04:25:03.000 Okay, yes. 04:25:03.000 --> 04:26:47.000 And even my cousin. My cousin came here—he’s my age—he came here when he was 12 from Vietnam. He doesn’t even understand Vietnamese today. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he lives in Chula Vista. It’s not like, you know—he’s not in the Midwest or anything. So, yeah, we’re losing it. My Lion dance group disbanded because the kids just—they won’t want to do it anymore. They’re not interested in it anymore. But yeah. It’s like a epidemic, right now, pretty much. Especially in San Diego, you know, where, you know, there’s a mix. There’s a lot of Asians here but there is not predominantly Asian. We’re suffering a lot from it. I feel like a lot of non-profits are going through it, though. Because I have a client who runs a dance, a little dance non-profit company for, you know, young kids at Balboa Park. And she tells me every year there’s less and less people. And the less people there are, the less board members are there going to be because of the parents. And then no parents means there’s not a lot of programs which means no donors for programs because they don’t have it. And then eventually it just evaporates. You know what I mean? But, I mean, the good thing is—the good thing that came from this AAPI movement is we came together. We established a new cycle of initiatives that will last, you know, for how long. I don’t know how long it’s going to last. I guess as long as this is a problem for us, which is going to be forever. But you know people forget. And then people move on. And then something else has to happen. And it just starts all over again. It’s just like war, you know. 04:26:47.000 --> 04:26:51.000 That’s a good analogy. 04:26:51.000 --> 04:27:16.000 Mm-hmm. So, when does it really stop? And I don’t like the fact that some non-profits that I’ve seen, they just try to create more problems to solve when, you know, they run out of funding or something. I don’t know. It’s weird. I’m always torn with that. Like what does an organization do when everything is solved? Right? (laughs) 04:27:16.000 --> 04:27:17.000 Yeah. That’s a good question. 04:27:17.000 --> 04:27:20.000 It’s like what’s a military contract going to do when the war is over? 04:27:20.000 --> 04:27:23.000 Right. In peace time. Yeah. 04:27:23.000 --> 04:27:43.000 Yeah. So, it’s a very great thing but I feel like some people take advantage of it and those people make it look bad for everybody else. Right? Just like with tattoo artists. Some guys are knuckleheads and make everyone else look bad. Yeah. So, that’s why I always—I get pulled over walking all the time. (laughs) 04:27:43.000 --> 04:27:44.000 Because of the way you look. 04:27:44.000 --> 04:28:07.000 Yep. Yep. But that’s okay. Because I’m always polite. Whatever. I never give them a hard time. And I would pull myself over if I looked like this. You know, right? So, that’s how it’s going to be for a while ‘til things change, ‘til I like make a big donation to the police or something. (both laughs) That’s how it all works. 04:28:07.000 --> 04:28:27.000 So, you mentioned the kids losing the culture. That’s a good segue into my last question. So, you have a new granddaughter. What do you want for her in terms of this world she lives in, and also community and culture? 04:28:27.000 --> 04:29:56.000 Well, interestingly, she’s Black and Asian. So, she’s going to have a very interesting, you know, take on the world. I want her to absorb both cultures, obviously. And celebrate it. And, I mean, my wife is pretty Americanized. But she still has her, you know, Asian cooking roots, traditions. Even though she’s the one that was born here in her family, and the youngest, she’s the only one who knows how to do like the traditional stuff, which is weird. And me too. I’m the only one who cúngs (cungs, ancestor worship rituals, Vietlish) and stuff. And my brother’s the one who was born in Vietnam. So, I mean we can obviously like teach her those things. Have her grow up in that environment. And then my stepdaughter’s boyfriend’s mom, she’s very, you know, she’s a very proud Black woman as well. I’m sure she’ll teach her everything she needs to know about what to look out for and all that. So, yeah, it should be interesting. I just want—I mean, she’s in this area. So, it’s not that bad. I mean, we’re really accepting. Everyone here is pretty much mixed now. And everyone respects each other. I mean, we respect each other’s food, cultures, all that. We celebrate it here. So, I don’t think it’s too crazy down here. As long as she doesn’t go to anywhere else, we're good. 04:29:56.000 --> 04:29:59.000 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 04:29:59.000 --> 04:30:07.000 Yeah. But I want her to be aware who she is, where she comes from. Yeah. So— 04:30:07.000 --> 04:30:13.000 Is there anything I should have asked that I didn’t ask? Or is there anything else that you want to say? 04:30:13.000 --> 04:30:38.000 Mmm, I don’t know. I think we covered everything. What else? Oh, in regards to the kids now not being motivated by culture and stuff. Well, I feel like for the longest time, you know, there’s teachers—Asian teachers look a certain way. Parents— 04:30:38.000 --> 04:30:40.000 You mean like schoolteachers? 04:30:40.000 --> 04:32:32.000 Yeah. Parents look a certain way, have a certain way of thinking, whatever. And I look different. Okay? So, I feel like they may absorb it differently coming from me. Because I knew when I was in my Lion’s Dance group, all the kids, you know, they thought they were so cool because I’m tatted and everything. And I was doing this thing with them, you know. And I was older than them and they looked up to that, right? So, I feel like it’s the same way with, you know, if I go to the high school auditorium and speak to the kids. They’re going to take it differently than if some, you know, let’s say like an Asian engineer or something came and talked to them, right? Because they can’t connect with those people. People who have taken a different path, pretty much. Because most of these kids that I’m trying to help, they’ve never thought about college in their life. Because they never thought it was an option. Nor did they think any of these careers that I’m trying to make them aware of exist either, you know. So, we want to do a career workshop sometime in the future where there would be let’s say a station on photography, and one on graphic design, one on barbering, one on, I don’t know, fashion or something. So, we want to make all that available so that these kids understand what they’re getting into before they go into it. Because half of the time, when you check off that major box for college, you don’t know what you’re about to do. Right? And you might go to school for, you know, four years to be a graphic designer and realize like there’s no jobs in it, or you hate it. All right? So, it’s good to have insight into that before you sign up and spend all your money on that. 04:32:32.000 --> 04:32:35.000 Yeah. So, you want to do like a career fair type of thing, you said? 04:32:35.000 --> 04:32:41.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I want to do that like once every season or something. Yeah. 04:32:41.000 --> 04:32:44.000 Like tailored towards teenagers. 04:32:44.000 --> 04:32:51.000 The arts only. Yeah, so high school seniors. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Don’t know how I’m doing it yet, but we’ll see. 04:32:51.000 --> 04:32:52.000 I’m sure you’ll find a way. 04:32:52.000 --> 04:33:00.000 Um, Thao said there’s a lot of libraries and stuff that offer their space or something. So, I’m like “Alright.” We’ll see. 04:33:00.000 --> 04:33:01.000 Yeah. Okay. 04:33:01.000 --> 04:33:13.000 Yeah. It’s just, I need someone to talk to them. But I’ve got to feel people out because if they’re not ready to see somebody like me when I approach them, then it’s very interesting where it ends up. (laughs) 04:33:13.000 --> 04:33:16.000 Well, I have connections in the library world— 04:33:16.000 --> 04:33:17.000 Oh, that’s nice. Yeah. I’ll let you know. 04:33:17.000 --> 04:33:20.000 —being a librarian. So— 04:33:20.000 --> 04:33:24.000 Yeah. My brother worked at the Linda Vista Library for twelve years. 04:33:24.000 --> 04:33:25.000 That’s awesome. 04:33:25.000 --> 04:33:35.000 Mm-hmm. I used to go there all the time with him. Because I had to go to work with him. And I used to sit there and just read books all day as a kid. Yeah. That’s why I don’t read now. (laughs) 04:33:35.000 --> 04:33:36.000 (laughs) You had enough! 04:33:36.000 --> 04:33:40.000 Yeah. I hate reading, but I’m writing a book which is ironic— 04:33:40.000 --> 04:33:41.000 Yeah, very ironic. 04:33:41.000 --> 04:33:55.000 —but I like to read things that are relevant to—more like non-fiction, like the news or something. I’m not really a fantasy guy. Because I don’t like living in a fantasy. (both laugh) 04:33:55.000 --> 04:33:57.000 Is the Linda Vista Library still there? 04:33:57.000 --> 04:33:58.000 Mm-hmm. 04:33:58.000 --> 04:34:00.000 Do you think about your time there every time you drive by? 04:34:00.000 --> 04:34:03.000 I volunteered there when I was thirteen for like a year. 04:34:03.000 --> 04:34:04.000 Cool. 04:34:04.000 --> 04:34:15.000 I was trying to work there, but they didn’t want to hire me. It’s a city job. So, it’s like they couldn’t hire anyone under a certain age anymore, I think, at the time. 04:34:15.000 --> 04:34:16.000 Okay. I think it’s sixteen. 04:34:16.000 --> 04:34:27.000 Yeah. Because when my brother was working there in the ‘90s, I think like ’94, ’95, he was getting paid a lot, like $12 an hour. At sixteen years old. 04:34:27.000 --> 04:34:28.000 That’s good. 04:34:28.000 --> 04:34:29.000 Yeah. That’s ridiculous. 04:34:29.000 --> 04:34:34.000 Yeah. Yeah. I was making $5.75 when I was sixteen. 04:34:34.000 --> 04:34:35.000 Oh, yeah? 04:34:35.000 --> 04:34:38.000 Yeah. That was in the mid-90s, I think. Yeah. 04:34:38.000 --> 05:34:37.000 Yeah. That was crazy. He only worked maybe three days a week. And that was enough for him to go on dates and stuff. So, yeah. That’s my life. 05:34:37.000 --> 05:34:49.000 Okay. Is there anything else you want to add before we— 05:34:49.000 --> 05:34:52.000 I think that’s it that I can think of. 05:34:52.000 --> 05:34:56.000 Okay. Well, thank you for sharing your thoughts. 05:34:56.000 --> 05:34:57.000 No worries. 05:34:57.000 --> 05:35:00.000 And doing this for the community. All right. 05:35:00.000 --> 05:35:05.000 So, what’s next? You’re going to get a few on there and build a website? 05:35:05.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Yes. We are going to—(recording ends). NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_access.xml DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Doan, Dennis "Dizzy". Interview March 6, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dennis "Dizzy" Doan is a Vietnamese American tattoo artist, writer and philanthropist in San Diego, California. In this interview, he speaks on his family and upbringing, as well as how he got his start in the tattoo industry. Doan also shares his motivation for starting his non-profit organization, The Doan Foundation. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-110 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dennis Doan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Ethnic identity; Tattoo artists; Philanthropy Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dennis Doan Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Amy Vo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jennifer Ho OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Vietnamese American identity OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Ho, Jennifer. Interview November 16, 2022. SC027-109 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnamese American identity immigration community Jennifer Ho Amy Vo moving image HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/65ce467b74a97eb8dd1a08baae44c2fe.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Jennifer Ho, November 16, 2022, by Amy Vo. 0 29 Childhood and family In this segment, Jenn talks about her childhood and family life, first in the Chicago suburbs and then in San Diego. She also shares her family’s migration stories and how her parents met. Hinsdale, Illinois ; Chicago ; office cleaning ; Vietnam ; grandparents ; San Diego ; Pensacola, Florida ; Pepperidge Farms ; Arizona ; Midwest 0 817 Vietnamese culture and community Jenn talks about her relationships to the Vietnamese communities in Chicago and in San Diego, and how her identity as a Vietnamese American has changed over time. Uptown ; Chicago ; Tet ; Vietnamese language ; Asian American identity ; Vietnamese American identity ; immigrant families ; political values 0 1628 Relationships and silences Jenn reflects on her relationship with her parents and the silences within her family. She also speculates on how she would feel about a future trip to Vietnam. ancestral inheritance ; storytelling ; family narratives 0 2223 Vietnamese identity and personal evolution Jenn speculates on her parents identities as Americans and how they may have changed since coming to the U.S. She also reflects on what makes a person Vietnamese or not. entrepreneurship ; American dream ; immigrant women ; culture and identity 0 2534 Childhood dreams and motherly influence Jenn shares her childhood dreams, and reflects on how her younger self would see her today. She also talks about the traits inherited from her mother. Hollywood ; Sandra Bullock ; libraries ; service ; mentorship 0 3114 Grandparents and language Jenn talks about her relationship with her grandparents and the love they had for each other. She also talks about their community in San Diego and the final days of their lives. Additionally, she talks about her Vietnamese language ability compared with her brother’s language ability. memory loss ; Chicago ; Thailand ; Vietnamese language ; City Heights ; Little Saigon ; Somalians ; Ethiopians ; Latinos ; community 0 3849 Food Jenn talks about her favorite Vietnamese food. She also talks about family mealtimes and how they were affected by her parents’ work schedule. Bo kho ; curry ; IndoMie ; Kung Fu Noodles ; banh xeo ; Pho Xe Lua ; banh cuon ; Thai chilies ; Taco Bell ; Laughing Cow ; Spam ; liverwurst ; pate 0 Oral history Jennifer Ho is an archivist in San Diego. In this interview, she speaks on her relationships with her family members, their immigration stories and her reflections on Vietnamese heritage and identity in the United States.&#13 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000  00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:27.000 This is Amy Vo interviewing Jennifer Ho for Children of Refugees, an oral history project on the Vietnamese American experience. Today is November 16th at 12:15 p.m. Eastern time, and we are meeting via Zoom. Hi Jenn! 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.000 Hey Amy. (both chuckle) 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:41.000 I thought I’d start with your childhood and ask you about where you grew up and what you were like as a kid, or how you remember you were like. (laughs) 00:00:41.000 --> 00:02:42.000 Okay. I was born in Hinsdale, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago, in 1982. And what I was like as a kid. I was pretty—I was an indoor kid. Just read a lot of books. Didn’t do anything athletic. Pretty quiet. Yeah, just kind of a nerdy kid, you know. But with that said, not great at school. I was really good at like reading and writing but, you know, didn’t do great in P.E. or math or science or anything that didn’t have to do with like reading a lot. (laughs) So, yeah, I did get detention a lot because I didn’t like to do my homework. I could have done it, but I was kind of lazy, so my parents didn’t like that. And I think if you asked them, I was pretty rebellious, especially as I got into middle and high school. I mean, (chuckles) like any normal kid, I wanted to hang out and go out with my friends. But they kind of wanted me to be at home all the time, which I was fine with when I was younger. But, you know, they were scared of the world and scared of things happening to me. So, they kind of just wanted me to stay home a lot. So, I was “rebellious” in the sense that I wanted to go hang out with my friends and not do anything wild or crazy. Like we just wanted to, you know, watch TV together at someone’s house or play in the park or whatever. So, yeah, kind of nerdy but also, I guess, rebellious, if you were to ask them. They were just always worried about everything, especially my dad. So that’s how I would describe myself. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:03:02.000 That was part of another question I had, like how your family saw you as you were growing up. And I was wondering like if you could tell me about your family and the people who raised you and like why you think they saw you that way, I guess. 00:03:02.000 --> 00:07:04.000 Yeah, sure. So, something that they told me a lot in Vietnamese was “This is not how a good Vietnamese girl is supposed to be.” So, I was not a very good Vietnamese girl by their standards. So, I was raised by my mom and dad. My mom was the breadwinner. And they were married until I was 19, and then they got divorced. So, I had my dad’s parents around a lot of the time. My parents worked a lot. My mom owned—She owned a series of businesses throughout my childhood. But the main one was she owned an office cleaning business. So, at night, she and my dad would go to different office buildings in the San Diego area and clean them. They were custodians. And so, it was their business, but it was really my mom who did all the hard work. And my dad just kind of did what she told him to do. So, she was really the boss at work and in life. And so, since my parents worked so much, my grandparents looked after us a lot. And my grandma and my dad and his two brothers came over—came to the U.S. in 1975, August of 1975. And my grandfather was planning to go with them, and the story goes—And it’s kind of fuzzy in my head and I don’t know if this—how accurate this is. But the story is that he was all set to go with them to the U.S. But he, at the last minute, decided to stay in Việt Nam (Vietnam). And this is because he was a pretty high-ranking person in the military. And he just couldn’t leave his men behind. So, he actually didn’t end up coming until I was seven years old which is when I first met him. And that was in 1989, when I was seven. So, after he came, he moved in with us and was part of our lives and looked after my brother and me while my parents were at work. And my mom’s parents had passed away a long time ago. My—Her father had never really been a part of their lives in Vietnam. He was not a great father figure, not a great husband at all, from what I understand. So, he was never part of my mom’s life. But her mother—My mom immigrated here ; I don’t know what year. But she came here with her mother and three of her sisters and one of her cousins. But she passed away, my grandmother passed away when I was, I want to say, four years old. And my mom was pregnant with my brother. And she didn’t get to say goodbye, because she was pregnant. And my—her sisters didn’t want to tell her that their mom passed away. Because they didn’t want the grief to affect the baby. So, that’s how the story goes anyway. And I say that because my parents don’t really talk about anything from their past or any of their memories or anything. So, we—my brother and I—have kind of like clobbered together these little bits and pieces about them. So, we don’t really know, except for the little bit that they tell us. So, yeah, that’s who raised me. I mean my grandparents, I think, thought I was a great kid because I read books all the time, which, you know, to them is the mark of a smart person. I don’t know. But, yeah, but my parents thought I was a very naughty little girl. (both laugh) So, yeah. 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:24.000 I like hearing about your different parents’ and grandparents’ stories and how they came here. Can you talk more about how your parents met? And then—Because you said you were born in Illinois. But then, when you moved to San Diego, I’d like to hear about that too. 00:07:24.000 --> 00:11:03.000 Sure. So, my parents met in Florida. They had immigrated here separately. Didn’t know each other. And when they first came to the U.S., they both arrived in Florida. So, the story goes, they were—their mothers were taking ESL classes together at the community college, I think—I’m assuming it was the community college ; I don’t know—in Pensacola, Florida. And I don’t really know what happened but I, from what I understand, it was like “Oh. You have a daughter? Oh, I have a son. They should meet.” (both laugh) So, that’s how my parents met. And—Oh, you asked about how they–I think you asked about how they came to the U.S. My mom’s oldest sister, my Dì Hai (Di Hai, second aunt) she was a translator at the embassy in Vietnam. So, I think she just kind of like knew people and she was able to get her siblings on a helicopter. They didn’t know that they were going until the night before. So, it was like “Okay. Pack your bags. We’re outta here first thing in the morning.” And my mom has three—My mom technically has four sisters. She’s the second to youngest. But her youngest sister was given up for adoption when she was a baby because my—their family was just so poor, and my grandmother just couldn’t afford to take care of another person. And the grandfather, my grandfather, was just not really in the picture. He kind of came and went. So, she was doing—she was raising these four girls on a single person’s income, basically, in Vietnam. So, when she got pregnant again by my grandfather—and he wasn’t around, of course—she just kind of had to give the baby to, I guess, to a family friend. And they’re still in touch with that sister who still lives in Vietnam. But I’ve never met her. I wouldn’t know her if I saw her on the street. And my mom also said she wouldn’t know her sister if she saw her on the street. But they’re still technically in touch. One of my aunts converses with her regularly. So, that’s how they came here. There was a point to telling you about that sister. So, since there were technically five girls—yeah, my mom and her four sisters—there were technically five girls in the family. But since one of them was with her adoptive family, I don’t think it was actually ever a formal adoption. It was more like “Here. Take care of my child,” you know. So, since that sister wasn’t really in the picture, one of my mom’s cousins kind of took the place of that sister, so—when they all came here. So, that’s what I mean when my mom—when I say my mom came here with her three sisters, her cousin, and her mother. And then my dad, I don’t know his migration story. He came—his father was in the military and pretty high ranking, from what I understand. So, I’m assuming that’s how they managed to get passage here. But both of my parents came on helicopters. They weren’t boat people, so to speak. So, I think they were pretty privileged in that sense. 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:16.000 Yeah. So, after Florida, did they—or did they get married in Florida and then move to Illinois? Or how is their story like in America and moving around? 00:11:16.000 --> 00:13:26.000 Yeah. So, they got married, I want to say, in Florida. And the sad thing is I don’t really know because my parents’ marriage was so miserable from the start. And my childhood is just so full of them fighting all the time. So, it’s not like their wedding was any kind of happy memory that they talked about. So, I think they got married in Florida. And then they moved to the Chicago suburbs. And, I want to say they—So, my mom used to work for Pepperidge Farms. You know, they make the cookies. And she still—she gets a pension from them now, actually, which is kind of funny and I don’t know why. But she worked for Pepperidge Farm in the Chicago suburbs. And I think that’s why they moved there. And they moved there with my mom’s—or they moved there with my dad and his siblings and his mother. So, basically, she—it was her moving her in-laws and her husband all the way to Illinois. And then, meanwhile, my mom’s family had kind of scattered a little bit, but mostly went to the west coast. One of my aunt’s, my Dì Tư (Di Tu, fourth aunt) moved to Arizona. And then, I think the rest of them went to San Diego. And then, so obviously the weather in southern California is far superior to the weather in the Midwest. So, eventually, when I was four years old and my brother was one, we all joined them in San Diego. And by then, my Di Tu, I think, had also come to San Diego. And this is all very fuzzy, and I would hate for somebody to write all this as fact. Because like I said, we don’t really talk about any of this personal history in my family. So, again, this is just like little bits of information that I’ve gathered. So—But I’m pretty sure that that’s what happened. That’s the chain of events. 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:31.000 Yeah. That’s impressive, though, that you’re able to piece it together. (both laugh) 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:37.000 I mean after forty years of cobbling information together yeah, that’s what I’ve come up with. 00:13:37.000 --> 00:14:06.000 Yeah. So, I guess you may not have much memory of Illinois when you were like a toddler. But I was wondering like if you did, do you remember about how your parents or family members immersed you in Vietnamese culture? And you can talk more about that when you were more like aware of things in San Diego too. 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.000 Okay. 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:14.000 But I was also curious if you have any memories of things in the Chicago suburbs. 00:14:14.000 --> 00:15:40.000 Sure. I don’t really have a lot of memories in the Chicago suburbs or the Chicago area because I was so little. But the cool thing is that after grad school I moved to Chicago. And I was kind of able to revisit the areas that my family frequented. When I moved to Chicago, one of the neighborhoods that I lived in was Uptown, Chicago, which is traditionally a landing pad for immigrant communities. And, most recently, it’s been the Vietnamese community. So, if you go to Uptown, there’s a lot of Vietnamese shops and restaurants and people. And the neighborhood’s getting gentrified. So, a lot of the Vietnamese families are getting pushed out into more western neighborhoods, including the suburbs. But it’s still known as a Vietnamese area. So, when my mom and my brother came to visit me in Chicago, we kind of wandered around. And my mom was like “I remember this neighborhood. This is where we went to go grocery shopping. Your grandmother always wanted to come here and, you know, get her groceries and her jewelry and her things from this area.” So, I don’t have actual memories from when I was a kid, but it was nice to know that my mom had memories there— 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:41.000 Yeah. That’s really cool. Yeah. 00:15:41.000 --> 00:19:26.000 —So, that was cool. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That made me really happy. And then as a kid in San Diego—There’s a lot of Vietnamese people in San Diego. So, I—like we did Vietnamese things. But nothing was ever explained to me. Like we celebrated Tết (Tet, lunar new year) every year. We would go to, you know—we would go grocery shopping or go to cultural events or jewelry stores. My grandma loved jewelry, so I have to keep bringing that up. It wasn’t all real jewelry. There was like a lot of like fake costume jewelry. But she was very glamorous. And so, I always, when I think of her, I think of like the way she would take forever to get ready. Because she just always looked very put together and beautiful, and jewelry was part of that. So, anyway, so she likes jewelry. What else? So, yeah. Nothing was really explained to me as a kid. And I have a lot of memories of trying to speak Vietnamese and just being made fun of by my family, like every time. And memory is kind of tricky. So, maybe it’s just those select few times that it happened that stand out in my head. But I never really held on to the language, speaking-wise, as much as I should have. And I still don’t really try because I still hear like my grandma’s voice in my head making fun of me, like speaking Vietnamese like the robot would. Because, you know, Vietnamese is so tonal (makes an up and down wave-like motion with her right hand) and everything goes up and down. So, she would just, she would kind of make fun of me by saying, speaking sentences in like a very monotone voice (speaks very monotone), you know, which I can kind of laugh at now. But it still affects my confidence, speaking-wise. So, I don’t know how I got on that. But yeah. So, in terms of like Vietnamese community and culture, like my parents had Vietnamese friends and not a whole lot of extended family. That sounds weird to say because my mom has three sisters here, and my dad has two brothers that were nearby. But there weren’t like a lot of little cousins that I hung out with. I, to this day, I only have like—I only have four cousins total on each side, and, yeah, so not a lot of people to hang out with that were family. So, yeah, I guess I kind of always knew that I was a Vietnamese person but didn’t really start to want to connect until pretty recently, like maybe in the past decade or so, since I moved to Chicago and was in Uptown and kind of started to see myself through this lens of being an Asian American person and being a Vietnamese American person. And I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that I found myself removed from being in southern California amongst so many Asian people. And then suddenly being in the Midwest, being surrounded by white and Black people and not seeing faces like mine. And that’s when I started to connect to being Vietnamese. But before that, I was just kind of —It wasn’t something that I thought a lot about. 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:54.000 Yeah. That’s really interesting, and I think segues into another question I had which is about how do you identify yourself? And how has that changed over time? And I was also wondering about like the friends you had in San Diego and like who you surrounded yourself with and whether or not that influenced how you saw yourself or identified. 00:19:54.000 --> 00:22:20.000 Okay. Sure. So, I identify myself as a straight, cis-gendered, Vietnamese American person. I always say Vietnamese American because I feel like if you don’t have some kind of—what’s it called, that part of speech—you know, the adjective next to American. Then people assume you’re white. I mean, Vietnamese people do that too, you know. They think of American people as white people. So, I always say Vietnamese American. And I feel like the friends that I had growing up—and this only occurred to me recently as I looked back, as I reflected—but the friends that I had growing up, and definitely the friends that I have today, are all like “hyphenated” (gestures air quotes with hands) American. Like they all come, for the most part, they all come from immigrant families, whether they’re Vietnamese or Asian or not. Like they’re almost always children of immigrants. So—and I just, I think that part of our selves that’s kind of American but very not American so to speak, that really shapes the way that we see the world and the way we interact with the world. So, I’ve just always felt more of a kinship for people who are from immigrant families. And, yeah, as an adult, that’s definitely true. Yeah. I don’t necessarily have—As a kid, I didn’t have a lot of Asian American friends, even though my neighborhood was very—it was white and Asian. But as an adult, I kind of seek out people who are Asian American, because I feel like the—I don’t know. Even though Asian Americans are not a monolith, by any means, I think the way the world lumps us together creates solidarity and community. And I find a lot of comfort in that as an adult. So, yeah. I think just my sense of being is the healthiest when I’m around people who can identify with what I’ve gone through and vice versa. We just—I feel like we just understand each other better. Does that answer your question? (chuckles) 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:34.000 Yeah. I had a complicated question. Because it’s just like it’s about identity but also about community. And like I think they are intertwined. And so, you did answer the question. 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:36.000 Okay. Cool. 00:22:36.000 --> 00:23:13.000 So, what would you say your relationship is to the Vietnamese American community now? And you had mentioned earlier about how it really struck you like moving to the Midwest and not seeing as many people like you. And so, I could see how that was like a turning point and perhaps how it evolved over time. But if you can talk about that, like how you feel like your relationship has been over time. 00:23:13.000 --> 00:26:49.000 Sure. I would say that it’s complicated, my relationship with the Vietnamese American community. I think probably anyone would agree with this. A Vietnamese person is not the same thing as a Vietnamese American person. You could probably say that about anybody from any culture, country in the world. Not to say that all Vietnamese people are the same as each other or all Vietnamese Americans are the same. But there is quite a rift in our—I’ll just say it—our political values. So, as a Vietnamese American person—and just an American person of color, in general—I am pretty liberal and leftist in my values and my thinking. But Vietnamese people from Vietnam are often on the other side. I think I read this somewhere. I think it’s true that Vietnamese Americans, statistically speaking, are the largest group of Asian Americans that voted for Donald Trump. And that’s because of our, I’ll just say, our childhood—or our trauma with the war and communism and nationalism. So, that history has, you know, carried forth through today. So, I don’t like that, and I see that in my own family. But I also—yeah, I don’t like to judge people or keep people or not keep people in my life due to political values. You know, I really feel like we’re more alike than the same in that we all just want to, you know, take care of our families and have a comfortable income. Like everybody wants those things. Every human wants those things. So, I don’t like seeing that in my community and in the people that I love. Not to say that my parents have those values necessarily. So, (coughs) excuse me. So, I would say that I’m proud of my parents. I’m proud of the way that they’ve come through on the other side in terms of their struggle, not to say that there haven’t been any struggles or there still isn’t trauma. And I’m proud of my–the Vietnamese American community for, in a lot of ways, holding on to our culture. You know, I can’t speak as a person from Vietnam, but I still see that Vietnamese people are very proud of their culture and their history. And I wish I saw it in my own parents. But I like hearing about Vietnamese people who like to talk about what they’ve gone through and will share that with their children. Like your parents, like that’s really cool that your dad will tell you everything and share his feelings. So, that’s really awesome. So, yeah. I’m definitely not ashamed of being Vietnamese American, but in terms of what it means to be a Vietnamese American, I don’t know. I feel close to my culture but at the same time I’m not really. Yeah. That’s something that I’m still thinking about, as you can tell. I don’t know how I feel about it. But I definitely don’t try to hide it, for what it’s worth. 00:26:49.000 --> 00:27:05.000 Yeah. That makes sense, though. I feel like I have the same kind of feelings, too, about myself within a larger culture and like a larger culture that does have rifts in it, generational ones usually. 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:08.000 Yeah. Absolutely. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:28:32.000 So, I guess like this is kind of related. Like after thinking about and, for you, piecing together your family’s migration story, like how do you think—Or maybe it’s a little harder since they’ve never like directly told you a actual narrative about it. But like as they get further from that time in their lives and like do you see that—Well, I guess, how does like their culture and their identities as being from Vietnam, like how, does that stay intact and how does that change? And how do those narratives change, I guess? Like have you noticed when they do say something maybe offhandedly, like their comments changing or like—I guess I’m asking for you to reflect on those stories and like what you perceive your family’s narratives to be, like and how much that feels a part of your life and your story, I guess? That’s a little complicated. (chuckles) 00:28:32.000 --> 00:31:14.000 No. It is complicated but I think that’s a really cool question. So, it does feel like my story because in the larger sense of like spirituality and the universe, I do feel like we inherit stories and trauma and success and happiness and all those things from our ancestors, even if we are not aware of it. But in the direct sense, yeah. Just because I can’t speak to my family’s story, I just don’t—yeah, I don’t know. Like I—Like the times that they have told me these bits and pieces, it was only the result of someone, usually my brother who is really good about this. He’ll ask really direct questions, like questions that you and I talk about for our oral history interviews. Like he’ll say like—Like he asked my aunts, because we were all at Thanksgiving dinner—this was like ten years ago or something. But he was—he asked like “how did you get to go to Vietnam? Like logistics were involved? Like how did you and not other people get seats on this helicopter?” So, that’s how I know about my aunt working at the embassy, being a translator. Because he—If you ask my, anyone in my family, like (talks in a lower, comical voice) “What was it like to be a kid in Vietnam?” they’re not going to know. Like they’ll just be like “It was fine.” Like that’ll be their answer. (both laugh) So, you really have to get down to the nitty gritty and ask these very specific questions. And I haven’t really done that with them. And I think part of the reason is because they—And I don’t really want to talk about this on the record. So, I’ll just say they—I didn’t have a great childhood, a lot of which is probably due to their trauma and passing it along to me in ways they didn’t intend. So, I don’t feel a strong emotional connection to them. And part of me doesn’t really want to talk to them about it. So, yeah, I feel like I could ask more, and I could learn more about them and about myself. But there’s just already such a rift there between us that I just have kind of given up on them in that sense. I see them every weekend and we’re fine. But I don’t have that sense of closeness to them to where I could approach those topics with them. 00:31:14.000 --> 00:32:28.000 Yeah. I think that like we talk about family narratives and stuff. But part of why we work on this project is to hear about the overarching narratives that happen in the community. And, like you said, those stories are part of like you, and like inherited in a like physiological way even. But like knowing that there’s a greater pattern among other people as well, outside of your family, I feel like is another way to get in touch with, you know, our culture and our history as Vietnamese people, Vietnamese American people. So, I was wondering have you ever thought about, or have you ever been back to, Vietnam? And like if you haven’t, has it ever crossed your mind? Or like is it something that you’d want to do? And like your thoughts around that and how you would go about it. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:36:54.000 So, I’ve never been to Vietnam. We—my mom and my brother and I were tentatively planning to go in 2020 and that was—that didn’t happen. I would like to go, partially as a tourist because I’m just interested in seeing other places, and partially to see where my parents grew up. But I don’t think I don’t think even they want to see where they grew up. Like they just are not, from what I can tell and I could be totally wrong on this, but they just aren’t connected to their past. Like I know that if we go, I’m not going to hear stories about anything unless I ask really pointed questions. And I kind of feel like if my mom wanted to share, she would have. So, I could—If and when I go with my mom and my brother, I know that I can be like “Okay, mom. Where’s the house where you grew up? And who was your best friend? And was there a swing set you played on?” I’m just making things up. And I could ask these direct, pointed questions—my brother definitely could. But I kind of feel like she—because she was such an unhappy kid, from what I understand anyway—I just don’t really want to go there. I feel like I should go there, but I mean I don’t want to go there mentally or emotionally. I don’t mean to Vietnam. Yeah, I don’t know if I want to put her through that, and I don’t know if I want to put myself through that. But I am still curious, and I’m still interested. And I think if she really put her foot down and was like “Okay. We’re going this year. We’re buying the tickets,” then I would go. But it’s just not really a priority for me. I feel like I ought to go and if my parents pass away—I mean, of course they’re going to pass away one day—but if I don’t go with them before they pass away, I think I might regret it. But I just don’t know if I’m ready. And I also don’t want to be disappointed by their lack of reflection or storytelling or any kind of information sharing. And I have a feeling, knowing them, that that’s how it would be. My dad actually went to Vietnam with his new wife last year. (clears throat) Excuse me. And I asked him how it went, and he was like “It was fine. It was good.” (Vo laughs and Ho shakes her head and furrows her brow) And like he—I know he visited some people. He visited like one of his aunts and some of his cousins that he like knew as a kid. He showed me some pictures. But when I tried—I actually tried to ask him specific questions. I don’t remember what I asked him. But I got nothing out of it. Like he didn’t have any kind of reflection to share with me. And I think that part of them—if it ever existed—that reflective, I don’t know, muscle, that sense of wanting to know yourself or get in touch with your feelings, if they ever had that it’s atrophied. Like they just don’t think about the past. They don’t reflect on it, except to maybe think about, I don’t know, regrets or not having money or direct, today-related things like that. But they just don’t think about their pasts. So, going back to your question, yeah. I’d go to Vietnam, but I don’t know. I’m just not—I would really have to check myself so that I don’t have high expectations. Because I’m pretty sure they would not be met which is a horrible attitude (laughs) but, you know, just keepin’ it real. I just don’t think that I would get a lot out of it. Or I’d have to really prepare somehow, and I don’t know how I would do that. So, yeah. 00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:00.000 Yeah. I mean I feel like that’s being realistic. (both laugh) You know your parents. 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:03.000 Yeah. Definitely. 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:50.000 I guess that makes me curious about what they’re like and how they keep in touch with like their identities as Vietnamese people and like how they see themselves in America. Because like I feel like thinking about their past, that’s so intertwined with like their origins as being from Vietnam. So, like trying to disconnect from that, I wonder like how do they—like from what you can tell, like how do they feel as Americans and as being Vietnamese in America? 00:37:50.000 --> 00:41:52.000 That’s a good question. You know, I’m not sure. I feel like my—there’s a lot of really good—mmm, how do I say this? So, my mom and her sisters are all really tough, independent, strong women. And my grandmother was the same way, their mom. There, definitely the thing that I appreciate most about my mom is that she’s like crazy hardworking and there’s nothing she cannot do if she decides she wants to do it. So, she’s always been very strong-willed and independent and entrepreneurial. So, I think—And her sisters are the same way. So, I think as it relates to your question and their identities as Vietnamese Americans, I think there’s a sense of pride in the lives that they’ve built for themselves, in that they haven’t really had to ever—And I’m not, definitely not, judging anyone who does this because I kind of get it—But they’ve never had to be in a relationship for the sake of being taken care of. They’ve never married for money which I kind of see a lot of immigrant women doing which, again, I get it, you know. It’s expensive. And, I mean, buying a home is expensive and taking care of yourself and your kids, that’s not easy. So, definitely don’t judge people for doing that. But my mom and her sisters have never had to do that. So, I think that this American dream as we call it, which is BS in a lot of ways, has really worked out for them. And I’m very proud of them for doing that. My dad’s side is—I don’t know, my dad wasn’t the breadwinner. And he was taken care of by my mom while they were married. So, he’s not built the same way as they are. That’s all I’ll say. (chuckles) But in terms of carrying their heritage, all of them, as Vietnamese Americans, you know, I don’t know. All my—My parents and aunts and uncles all speak Vietnamese and eat Vietnamese food and celebrate all of the traditional holidays. But, you know, I’m not sure what it is about them that makes them specifically Vietnamese, other than those things, which you could say about, you know, a Polish person or a, you know, anybody else from another culture and country. So, I don’t know. That’s a question that I think about a lot, too, for them and for myself and my brother. Like what is it that makes us Vietnamese? Or what makes us special? I don’t really know. And I don’t want to just pin everything on food and holidays. Because that’s kind of just like anybody can cook food and anybody can celebrate a holiday. So, what is it about Vietnamese people or, you know, what is it that makes the culture unique or special or is a marking of that specific culture? I don’t know. This will be a good question to ask them. But I don’t know if they would be willing to answer that (both laugh) either. Yeah. I’m not sure. I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer that. That was my long-winded way of saying I have no idea. 00:41:52.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Well, that’s a hard question and like you can’t really pinpoint like a specific thing. But like—So, and then it’s hard to think about like big picture kind of things, too. But I thought I’d ask and see if you had any—what your thoughts were. (laughs) 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.000 Cool, cool. I’m glad you asked. 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:41.000 I’m going to switch gears a little bit and ask about if you had any goals or dreams for when you grew up, as you were growing up. Like what did you think about adulthood being like and what you envisioned yourself being? Like what did you want when you were growing up? And like how would your younger self feel about where you are now? 00:42:41.000 --> 00:45:28.000 That’s a good question. When I was a child, I wanted to be a movie star. (both laugh) I literally wanted to be a movie star. And I was obsessed with movies and Hollywood, and I would go to the movies and see like the, you know, the big posters (indicates a large square item with hands) on the wall with Sandra Bullock or whoever. And I’d be like “Yeah. That’s going to be me one day.” (furrows brow and shakes head) I don’t know. I don’t know where that came from, honestly. Because that sounds like a complete nightmare to me now. So, then as I grew up, I wanted to—I’ve had so many different careers before I landed on being an archivist. But they were always in the vein of like being of service to people. So, I wanted to be—I wanted to work in hospitality for a long time, in hotels, which I did for quite a long time. And then social work. And then I wanted to teach. So, they were all professions where you have to give in some way to people. And I think being a librarian and an archivist is not any different from that. So–and I think there’s so many ways in which I’m like my mom, fortunately and unfortunately. But that’s one of them. She’s always kind of dedicated herself to helping people. So, what would my childhood self think of what I do now? I don’t know! You know, I never really thought of—I mean, there was a brief period of time where I thought about, you know, being married and what my kids’ names would be. But that didn’t really last long, I think, partially because my parents’ marriage was so miserable. I just—That kind of—That dream just kind of fizzled out. I’m not opposed to any of that now but, you know, I’m forty and I’m single and have no kids which I’m very, definitely okay with, no joke. But it’s not a priority at this point. So, yeah, I think—I don’t know. I didn’t really think about myself in like career terms when I was a kid. But I did love the library. And I did go—My dad took me to the library all the time. And if he couldn’t take me, then one of my uncles would take me. So, I always had very positive associations with the library. Never thought of it as a career or anything when I was a kid. So, I guess, I don’t know. I guess now that I think about it, maybe I would have thought my adult self is pretty cool for being a librarian, I hope. But yeah. Yeah, I don’t know if that answers the question, but— 00:45:28.000 --> 00:46:08.000 No, it does. I guess I was—Like when you were mentioning the different careers that you’ve been in, that made me wonder about like—and you mentioned that your mom is also a very giving person who wants to be of help in service to others. I wanted to ask more about that part of you, and like when you first—Or like is there a moment when you first started to think “Oh. This is—I really like doing this and like helping other people.” And like how that—And like how you came to know that part of yourself? 00:46:08.000 --> 00:47:39.000 Hhmmm. That’s a good question. I don’t think there was a specific moment, honestly. I think part of it might stem from being a people pleaser as a kid which might have been a, I don’t know, like a self-preservation mechanism because, you know, my parents were very controlling and demanding. So, I think that may be part of it. So, being a people pleaser and then going into a service profession where you have to help people and meet their needs, like there might be some kind of psychological connection there. But I hope that’s not the only reason that I do what I do. So, yeah. I don’t think there was a specific moment. I just kind of—It’s just always felt right to me to give in some way. And as an adult, especially in the last few years, I’ve learned how to, you know, create boundaries and, you know, pay attention to my own needs and not the needs of the people around me so much. So, that’s helped me become a healthy adult. But yeah. This is just always what’s felt natural to me after I decided I wasn’t going to be a movie star. (both laugh) 00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:45.000 I wonder what that would have been like if you pursued that. (laughs) 00:47:45.000 --> 00:48:19.000 Yeah. I don’t know, man. I don’t think I would have been successful. I definitely would have been a brat. Like, you know, being one of those people who, you know, everyone says “Yes” to you. Like, I don’t know. I’m thinking of ultra famous people where people are at your beck and call. I don’t think I would have turned out to be a very nice person if I had people like, you know, fawning all around me and trying to meet my every need. So, maybe it’s a good thing that didn’t happen. 00:48:19.000 --> 00:49:00.000 To go in the same vein of like your path, and I don’t mean just like career path either, but I was wondering as you were growing up and going through school and your work and everything and just going through life, if you had any influential mentors or teachers, and like influential people in that way like outside of your family who really made a difference in your life? And like how you saw yourself or how you saw yourself as a person, I guess. I feel like sometimes there are people like that. 00:49:00.000 --> 00:51:50.000 Yeah. That’s a good question. I know it’s very cliché, but my mom is a very influential figure, as she would be for any person. But she’s, specifically, she’s just so tough and super strong-willed and some would say stubborn, which is not a positive trait. But I just really appreciate that about her. And so, I can see myself in her in that like if I decide to do something, like, it’s happening. I’m making it happen regardless of any perceived obstacles. Like I’ve never really said “Oh, what if it doesn’t work out.” Like I don’t really even think about that. And I think that comes from her. And her mother, from what I understand, was very much the same. Like they didn’t have a great relationship growing up. But my grandmother was very entrepreneurial too, and she had all these kids to take care of. But she was just—you know, she hustled. And she like opened businesses and had all these different like streams of income in order to bring in money to feed her kids. So, I just really appreciate and respect that from my mom’s side. In terms of other mentors, you know, I—Yeah, I had some really good teachers growing up, in grade school, who were always interested in what I had to say and what my thoughts were. And I got attention from them in ways that I didn’t at home, you know. Like they actually validated my feelings and my thoughts and my work, so really good teachers. You know, I think every person in my life that’s had some kind of mentorship role has been someone who validates me. And I think I say that because my family just didn’t. You know, we don’t do that. They were never like “Oh, you do such a great job,” or “I’m proud of you,” or “I care about you,” or “You’re great!” Like I never got that at home, ever! So, even like up ‘til today, like I have people at work that I look up to. And it’s just the same thing. Like they’ll tell me that I’m doing a great job, or they really liked this aspect of this project. Or just—they’ll have all these affirming words. And that’s something that I really need, unfortunately. So, yeah, in terms of mentors, like there’s lots of people that come to mind. But it’s always—they are always people who provide that for me. 00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:52.000 Yeah. 00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:54.000 Yeah. 00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:33.000 You also talked about your grandparents raising you when you were growing up. So, I was wondering about like their influence in your life. Like what kind of time did they spend with you? Or were they just like in the same room at the same time? Or in the same building? (laughs) And like—And then I wanted to ask about mealtimes and like who did the cooking and stuff like that. But you can start with I want to know more about growing up in a multi-generational home with your grandparents. 00:52:33.000 --> 00:55:02.000 Sure. Yeah. So, my grandparents that I grew up with were my dad’s parents. And they were really loving and caring in the way I feel like only grandparents are. So, I definitely didn’t get the same criticism from them that I did from my parents. I didn’t really get a lot of praise either. But, you know, at least I wasn’t criticized. So, yeah, my grandparents didn’t really share a lot of their stories with me either. Definitely not the kind of grandparents who were like “Oh, let me tell you about when I was a kid.” Like there wasn’t any of that. They passed away in 2019, just one month apart from each other. And it was really wild because they—my grandfather was—he had, I don’t think it was Alzheimer's. I think it was just short-term memory loss, not just, but not to the extent where he was actually like diagnosed as dementia or Alzheimer’s. So, and after a while, he just couldn’t really take care of himself. And my dad was not in a situation where he could have my grandfather move in. And my uncle—he just—none of my dad, or then neither of his brothers could take care of him. So, he went to a nursing home. But he was visited often. They did not ignore him. I just wanted to state that for the record. (Vo chuckles) So, he was in this home for like a year, I want to say. I was living in Chicago at the time. So, that’s kind of fuzzy. But my grandma was okay. And she was pretty sharp up until like maybe the week before she passed. And so, anyway, I say all this because he—They were not living together and my family didn’t tell my grandmother that my grandfather had passed. But somehow, a month after he passed, she did too. And they weren’t together. But I guess somehow you just know. And I think that’s really beautiful. So, in terms of how they raised me, sorry, I keep going back and forth. (laughs) 00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:04.000 No. That’s okay. 00:55:04.000 --> 00:58:00.000 Yeah, they were great. When I got my master’s degree, my grandpa was really happy about that. So, he told me I was number one. That was it. He’s like “You, number one.” He said it in English. But, yeah, they didn’t say much else, but I could tell he was really proud of me. So, yeah, my parents, when I was a kid, my parents worked a lot. And so, my grandma was always there taking care of us or my grandpa. And, you know, they didn’t really play a lot with us or interact a lot with us. But they were just always there, you know. My brother and I would play with each other, or we might have a friend over or play video games. He would play video games, and I would be reading a book or whatever. So, not a ton of interaction, but they were definitely around which I appreciate now. And, yeah, my grandma, a couple years before—(coughs) sorry, I’m not used to talking so much. A couple of years before they started to get ill, my grandma told my brother a story about how she—my grandfather was, I guess, in Thailand with the military doing something. And he was like in a prison there, for some reason. I still don’t know. So, my grandma had to like find passage to Thailand which isn’t technically that far. But you can’t just like stroll on over, you know. So, oh my gosh. I’d have to ask my brother what the details of the story are. And I think I’ll do that if I interview him. But basically, she just told the story about how it took like a whole week for her to get to my grandpa. And all she wanted to do was like bring him supplies, like socks and medicine and that kind of thing. But she had to like talk to all these different people and like pay people to like let her cross and like bribe them and that kind of thing. And my grandmother was actually pretty well off in Vietnam. Like she had some money. And then my grandfather was pretty high ranking. So, they were not—they were relatively privileged, unlike my mom’s family. But even with all that privilege, it was still quite an obstacle to get—to find him and get him these supplies. So, and the reason I bring it up was because that’s the one memory that I have of her telling a story. And it was because—And it was just, you know, her wanting to get to her husband so she could care for him in some way. So, that really stands out, that love that they had for each other. 00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:03.000 Yeah. That’s really sweet. 00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:06.000 Yeah. It is. 00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:44.000 So, the conversations that you did have, were they mostly in Vietnamese? And like what kind of conversation—I mean, it sounded like, because she was able to talk about her story with you, that you were able to talk with one another. But I was wondering about like if there were any language barriers. Or—Because you also talked about not feeling comfortable speaking Vietnamese with them. So, what was that like as a component of your relationship with them? 00:58:44.000 --> 01:01:01.000 So, my brother is actually really good about trying to speak Vietnamese. Like his Vietnamese also isn’t great. But he tries really hard, unlike me. So, when I say that she told the story, she was really telling him the story. And she only told him a story because he asked in Vietnamese. So, yeah, I could understand most of the story which was told only in Vietnamese. And my comprehension is actually pretty decent. But I have never really been able to converse with my grandparents other than, you know, “How are you?” “I’m hungry,” you know, like the things that you need to be able to communicate. Yeah, my dad was always around—or not always around. But, as an adult, when I visited my grandparents, my dad was always around. Like he would take us to visit them. And he speaks both English and Vietnamese. So, he always just kind of translated for me. So, yeah, I can’t really—I was never really able to communicate with my grandparents much at all. But they were able to communicate with me. So, I guess I’m the lucky one. But yeah, my brother—Yeah, everything that I know is because my brother is willing to put forth that effort. He doesn’t have that trauma the way I do. So—I can speak–or I actually read and write to a certain degree, like I don’t know, maybe to a third-grade level or something. But I can. And my brother doesn’t have that ability, ironically. So, yeah. Everything my grandparents said to us was in Vietnamese. They could speak, you know, okay-ish English. But they didn’t really. They were able to, you know, get around, go to the grocery store, like American grocery stores and talk to American people in English, to a certain extent. So, they were okay. But in the family, they only spoke Vietnamese. So, yeah, not a lot of communication with my grandparents. 01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:32.000 Yeah. What were they like? Or I’m guessing—what was their community like? Do you remember like growing up and them seeing other people that were their friends or family? And like how often did they get out of the house and like those kind of interpersonal things? And like did they ever take you places to meet those people and go to events and things? 01:01:32.000 --> 01:03:40.000 Yeah. So, my grandparents—everyone on my dad’s side, actually including my dad, they’re all very social people. My mom’s side is more introverted and quiet. But my dad’s side is pretty, pretty social and extroverted. So, my grandparents definitely had their own community of Vietnamese people. They had their friends. All the people in their lives, in terms of like, I don’t know, service people, like their doctors, dentists, etc. were all Vietnamese. And they lived in San Diego on—they lived in City Heights, which is Little Saigon in San Diego, basically. Just like Uptown in Chicago, City Heights is traditionally, you know, a landing pad for immigrant people. But it’s mostly Vietnamese people now. And there’s also Somalians, and Ethiopians, and a lot of Latino folks. So, it’s really a melting pot for, you know, all these different like crosswalks and intersections of life. But a lot of immigrant people and a lot of Vietnamese people. So, they lived in that area, and they definitely had a community. Like I didn’t really like socialize like, you know, like (laughs) go to the bars with them or anything. And I know you weren’t asking that. (Vo laughs) But there were always Vietnamese people around and they had their friends. And they had siblings who were in San Diego. So, yeah. They were always very connected. And so, I felt connected when they were alive. And I still feel connected to Vietnamese people, although I don’t know how I’ll—if that will still be true after my gran—after my parents pass away. And I know you didn’t ask that. But that’s where my mind went, so yeah. They were always connected with the Vietnamese Vietnamese community. And they were older when they came here. So, they definitely held on to that, to their culture and their heritage really well. 01:03:40.000 --> 01:04:04.000 Yeah. I’m always so like impressed or like happy for older folks who are able to like stay engaged in that way, with like people around them and like their wider community. Because I feel like that’s really healthy and like—And so, I can see why they lived so long. 01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:09.000 Yeah. That’s a good point actually. I never thought about that. Yeah. 01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:18.000 Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you about your favorite dish, since I really liked it when you asked me that question. (chuckles) 01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:19.000 Okay. 01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:53.000 What’s your favorite meal to eat? What’s your favorite Vietnamese dish? What’s your favorite snack? And then like what’s the thing that you’re able to cook yourself that you like feel—Like for me, at least, whenever I have guests or visitors over, I’m like “Oh. I’m going to make bò kho (bo kho) for them to eat. Because I make it pretty well. So, like what’s that for you? What’s your favorite thing to eat? 01:04:53.000 --> 01:06:03.000 My favorite thing to eat, Vietnamese-wise, is—Well, probably anything-wise, is Vietnamese curry. My mom makes it the best, of course. And so, I’m vegetarian. So, she makes it for me with just like, you know, the typical things like tofu, and taro, and carrots. And, I don’t know, whatever she puts in it, it’s always good. I don’t even know. And I feel like Vietnamese curry is so hard to find that whenever I go to a Vietnamese restaurant and I see curry on the menu, like that’s what I’m getting. Period. If it’s vegetarian, then that’s my default order. And I feel like it’s always good. It’s like pizza, like you can’t really go wrong. Even if it’s bad, it’s still good. So, I don’t really cook Vietnamese food, unless you count—which this shouldn’t count—the noodles in the packet. It’s not ramen. I don’t even know what the name is. But— 01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:04.000 Is it IndoMie? 01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:57.000 It’s not IndoMie. It’s a Vietnamese, or it’s in Vietnamese. And it’s been around forever. And even when I wasn’t vegetarian, I would get—My dad liked the onion flavor. And he would always eat that. So, sometimes I make that at home for like just a comfort food meal. There’s like a little packet of seasoning. And then there’s the oil packet. And then my dad would always add things like sliced onions, and like lettuce leaves, and just things to like bulk it up. So, that’s one of my favorite things to make at home. But I would never give that to a guest. (both laugh) It would be so embarrassing. I think it’s called Kung Fu. (looks to her right and seems to be looking something up on the computer) Kung Fu noodles. Oh, is it okay to Google it during the—? Yeah. It’s fine. (Vo laughs) It’s our project. Kung Fu noodles. 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:03.000 Yeah. I want to know what it is. I don’t think I’ve ever had it. 01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:16.000 Yes. This is it. Onion flavor. I’ll share my screen. I hope it’s okay. Onion…This, oh my god. This is it. Okay. Um, I’m going to share real quick. 01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:21.000 Okay. 01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:23.000 (Shares screen and the image is of a package of noodles called “Kung-Fu” on the Amazon website) Can you see that? 01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:27.000 It’s loading. Wow! I’ve never seen it! 01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:46.000 Oh, really? Okay. Well, we’ll—if we see each other at SAA next summer, I’ll bring you a packet. It’s really delicious, although that might just be my childhood nostalgia. (Screen sharing stops) Saying that, it probably isn’t even that great. But it’s the onion flavor. And I guess it’s not Vietnamese. It says “Mì Hành” (Mi Hanh) something. 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:48.000 Yeah, there’s Vietnamese on it. 01:07:48.000 --> 01:08:03.000 On it, so yeah. That’s kind of Vietnamese. So, yeah, that’s what I make at home more often than I care to admit. But I don’t really cook Vietnamese food. And I feel like it’s so labor intensive. I mean— 01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:42.000 I know. Yeah. I get that. Especially like the more popular or well-known dishes, like even making bánh xèo (banh xeo) is like, do I want to go through frying each pancake or whatever? HO: Yeah. It takes forever. My mom will make banh xeo for us kind of often. But she—and when I say “us,” I mean me and her. But like she can’t sit and relax and enjoy it with me. Like she’s just standing there the whole time and cooking and then she’ll like sneak in bites. So, that kind of sucks. 01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:49.000 I also wanted to ask, when you eat curry, do you eat it with rice or with bread? Because sometimes—or with noodles? Like rice noodles. 01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:50.000 I like it with noodles. 01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:51.000 Yeah. Okay. 01:08:51.000 --> 01:09:02.000 Yeah. That’s my favorite. I will eat it with French bread if the bread is toasted. Rice is good too. I mean rice goes with everything. So, yeah, out of the three, I would pick noodles. But they’re all winners. 01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:11.000 Okay. I was wondering because I know I’ve had all three. But I feel like everyone would have their preference. (laughs) 01:09:11.000 --> 01:10:23.000 Yeah. Definitely. Noodles are my preference, period, in life. So— And then food-wise. Okay. (holds head in her hands) I have to say, in Chicago, there was this restaurant called Phở Xe Lửa (Pho Xe Lua), and some people call it “PXL” for short. And they had—The lady that ran it, or who owned it, trained with Vietnamese monks. So, there was a really extensive vegetarian menu. And I loved that place for that reason. Everything was so good. And the thing that I would get the most there was a—(whispers to herself, scratching her head) oh god—it was not bánh ướt (banh uot), but something just like it. So, like I guess white people now call them rice rolls. But just the flat rice layers that are—Oh, there’s a name for it. What is it? And they’re just kind of rolled up and they’re just—you just put the nước mắm (nuoc mam) on them, and they get really soggy, and you eat them with chả lụa (cha lua) and all the veggies. I’m kicking myself because I can’t remember the name. 01:10:23.000 --> 01:10:25.000 Is it—It’s—is it bánh cuốn (banh cuon)? 01:10:25.000 --> 01:10:26.000 Yes! 01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:27.000 Oh, okay. 01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:29.000 Yes. Banh cuon. Yes. That’s it. 01:10:29.000 --> 01:10:31.000 Yeah. I love banh cuon. 01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:38.000 Yeah. (Vo laughs) It’s always—Yeah. I like wet foods. So that one always hits the spot. 01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:47.000 Yeah. I always think of it as like a brunch meal too. I don’t know if that’s just how–when we would eat it, like for brunch on the weekend. 01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:49.000 Oh! Interesting. Okay. 01:10:49.000 --> 01:11:11.000 Yeah. Banh cuon. Yeah. Well, I guess, do you have any other thoughts about food? (both laugh) Or like mealtimes or cooking or like any things that your family did together with food? 01:11:11.000 --> 01:13:26.000 Um, I think the thing that stands out to me most in terms of family mealtime is that for a long time my mom owned a little chain of stores at the mall. So, she sold like formal wear for children for like weddings, or quinceañeras, or just, you know, little tuxedos and dresses for little kids. So, that kept her very busy, and my dad, it kept him very busy too. And so, for a long time we would just go to the grocery store once a week and buy like frozen meals to pop in the microwave to eat at home because they were too busy to cook. My mom was too busy to cook. So, yeah, my mom talked about that not long ago and like expressed how much she regretted that she had to put us through that, which was nice of her to acknowledge. And I don’t think it was the worst thing. Like I get it. She was busy. So, but yeah, that stands out to me a lot. So, I think that’s it. Yeah, my grandma cooked, but not often. And she would make soup a lot. Like she would make phở (pho)and other soupy, noodley things. And what I remember about her is two things. She would always, whether it was at home or a restaurant, she would get like the fresh chili peppers, (indicates something about two inches long with her right thumb and forefinger) the red ones—like I think they were Thai chilis—and she would slice them up into little slices. They were fresh and she would slice them up and add them to her soup. She liked hot food, like spicy food. So, she—if we were at home, she had those ready. And then if we were at a restaurant, she would request them. And then—And she would always either have scissors or—No! She always had scissors at home, and if we were going out to a restaurant, she would keep scissors in her purse so that she could cut the noodles in the restaurant which I always thought really embarrassing. But now, as an adult, I’m like yeah. You’ve got to take care of your own needs. So, that’s awesome. (both laugh) 01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:53.000 I think people also don’t get like scissors are actually a very important part of eating in that way. Like I’ve done—I’ve cut things like in the kitchen or while I’m eating, with scissors. And other people who aren’t like Vietnamese or Asian even like are like confused, or aren’t used to it, I guess. Yeah. 01:13:53.000 --> 01:14:05.000 Yeah. I feel like, yeah, I’ve never actually done that myself. I don’t have kitchen scissors. But I definitely appreciate how handy they are. So,— 01:14:05.000 --> 01:14:58.000 I like that story about your grandma. Thank you. (both laugh) Can I ask another—one more question—about like are there foods?—because, for me, I’ve experienced this where they’re American foods that kids love but like, for me, it was very foreign. And so, it was like an experience that I sought out. I was like “I want to try this American food.” Yeah, is—Do you have experiences like that? Like growing up with eating a certain type of food but then like your peers experience like different types of food. And then you don’t know, like you aren’t able to connect to that. Or like then you’re like “I want to try that.” Or—Does that question make sense? 01:14:58.000 --> 01:17:17.000 Yes. It makes sense. I’m trying to think of an answer. That’s a good question. I, you know, I think–I don’t think I have a lot of that because my parents worked so much and we always had that frozen food stuff. So, I, you know, ate like lasagna or Marie Callendar’s or those things. And then sometimes like McDonalds and that kind of stuff too. The only answer I can think of is when my dad—was it my dad? I can’t—I think it was actually my best friend in high school. Her name was Lisa. She was white. And she—we got these passes to go off campus for lunch. So, it felt like, you know, the big time, right? Like you were allowed to go off campus for lunch as long as you come back. So, I think on one of our first times doing that, we went to Taco Bell. And I had never been to Taco Bell before. I don’t remember what we got but I remember loving it and wanting to go there as much as I could after that. Like I had never given it a second thought. But then it’s like the world opened up before me. So, yeah, so then I took my dad and my brother there, and they loved it too! (both laugh) Um, that’s all I can think of. Yeah. I feel like we went out to eat a lot, my family and I did, because my parents were just so busy. So, we didn’t really have another choice. And then my grandma, I guess she could have cooked. But she didn’t really cook much, and I don’t know why. I’m sure she would have, but I don’t know why she didn’t cook that much because you think of a grandmother like always cooking, right? But I don’t really have memories of her cooking for us. She also didn’t really get along with my mom. So, that might have had something to do with it (shrugs) looking back. Maybe my mom didn’t want her to or something. But yeah, food-wise, I feel like we were—yeah, my parents always preferred Vietnamese food first. But we were—I feel like we were pretty adventurous compared to other immigrant families just because we didn’t really have a choice. So, yeah. 01:17:17.000 --> 01:17:38.000 Yeah. That makes sense. Because I was thinking of like cheese kind of based things, because a lot of people in my family don’t eat cheese, because it’s like not really part of Vietnamese cuisine. So, like if there’s cheese, they won’t eat it. Um, my dad— 01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:40.000 Even Laughing Cow? 01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:54.000 —yeah. My dad loves cheese, though. So, I was wondering if there’s stuff like that that influenced your experiences of like things that are American that you didn’t eat ‘til later. 01:17:54.000 --> 01:18:13.000 My dad—I don’t think this counts—but my dad really liked liverwurst, like paté. But it was always like the—what brand was it? It was like an American brand. It wasn’t Asian or Vietnamese at all. And he would eat that a lot. And he liked Spam a lot too. 01:18:13.000 --> 01:18:15.000 Oh, yes. (laughs) 01:18:15.000 --> 01:18:40.000 Of course. And he would just take whatever ingredients and like put them all in a baguette. And the Laughing Cow, of course. Yeah. I don’t know. Nothing stands out other than those things. So, after I found out what liverwurst is, I stopped eating it. (Vo laughs) Even before I was vegetarian. I was like “Nope. Not eating that anymore.” It was really good though. (chuckles) 01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:45.000 I know. I remember—I know this is your interview, but— 01:18:45.000 --> 01:18:47.000 That’s okay, no. (shakes head) 01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:55.000 When I was a kid, we loved eating paté on like toast. And my brother called it quẹt quẹt (quet quet) because you kind of like smear it. (motions smearing with her right hand) 01:18:55.000 --> 01:18:58.000 Oh. (laughs) 01:18:58.000 --> 01:19:12.000 And then like we had friends over, and we were like “You want a snack?” And then we—and my mom told them what it was, and they were like “Oh my god! Don’t want it.” But yeah. 01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:14.000 Was that embarrassing? 01:19:14.000 --> 01:19:35.000 I don’t know. I was just like—I guess it was a little embarrassing, but since I still think about it (both laugh) from time to time. But yeah, well was there anything else that you wanted to talk about before we wrap up? 01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:40.000 Mmm, no, nothing comes to mind. This was a good interview. Thank you. 01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:44.000 Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you for your time. 01:19:44.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Of course. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.xml HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ho, Jennifer. Interview November 16, 2022. Description An account of the resource Jennifer Ho is an archivist in San Diego. In this interview, she speaks on her relationships with her family members, their immigration stories and her reflections on Vietnamese heritage and identity in the United States. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-109 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennifer Ho Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Amy Vo Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chicago (Ill.); San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Amy Vo OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Vietnamese American identity OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Vo, Amy. Interview November 10, 2022. SC027-108 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnamese American identity community immigration Vietnam Amy Vo Jennifer Ho moving image VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2400e2e5d03836344481cb1337ea99f1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Amy Vo, November 10, 2022, by Jennifer Ho. 0 37 Migration, childhood and community Amy talks about her childhood spent in the U.S. and overseas, and the Vietnamese communities in these regions. She also shares her parents’ migration stories. Tulsa ; Saint Francis Hospital ; Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City ; Vinh Long ; Hanoi ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese community ; Brunei ; refugee camps ; political division ; communism ; Krispy Kreme ; New York ; Chino Hills ; La Brea ; petroleum engineering ; Unocal ; Chevron ; San Jose ; Louisiana ; Dallas ; Alabama ; conservative community ; Republican ; Singapore ; Islam ; Islam/Muslim ; Chinese Buddhist ; Bangkok, Thailand ; employee resource groups ; Princetonians ; LGBTQIA ; New Jersey ; Philadelphia ; Los Angeles ; Japanese ; Chinese 0 2139 Vietnamese identity Amy reflects on her Vietnamese identity and how it was influenced by her time overseas as well as her life at home. Japanese, Taiwanese, Indian, American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, British 0 2508 Mom's cooking Amy shares her childhood memories of her mother’s cooking and the ways in which her mom has been expanding her culinary skillset. She talks about how her mom teaches people to cook, and her favorite thing her mom makes. accountant ; NHK ; meals ; Korean food ; Japanese food ; Asian food ; Italian food ; cha gio ; bun rieu ; curry 0 3120 Grandparents and language Amy talks about her grandparents on both sides, and her relationships with them. She also addresses language and how it limits her ability to interact with Vietnamese people. ba ngoai ; ba noi ; Tulsa ; Dallas ; Japanese occupation ; Vietnamese language ; KFC ; language fluency ; language loss 0 4059 What does it mean to be a Vietnamese person? In this section, Amy reflects on how her parents indirectly taught her about Vietnamese heritage, including traditions and communication styles. Religion ; tradition ; communication 0 Oral history Amy Vo is an archivist in New Jersey. In this interview, she shares her experiences growing up in cities and countries around the world and her experiences being the only Vietnamese American person in these places. She also reflects on her heritage and what it means to be in community with other Vietnamese people.&#13 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:29.000 This is Jennifer Ho interviewing Amy Vo for Children of Refugees, an oral history project on the Vietnamese American experience. Today is November 10, 2022, 10:36 a.m. Pacific Time and we are meeting via Zoom. Thanks for being here with me today, Amy. 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000  00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Thanks, Jenn. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:37.000 Yeah, all right. So, let’s just get into it. Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:45.000 I was born (redacted), 1988, in Tulsa, Oklahoma in Saint Francis Hospital. (chuckles) 00:00:45.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Okay. All right. Cool! And tell me about your parents. Where did they come from? And tell me about their migration story. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:37.000 Um, I guess generally I broadly know that my parents both grew up in Sài Gòn (Saigon). So, and my dad also spent some time in the country outside of Saigon in Vĩnh Long (Vinh Long). And my mom’s family originally came from the north, like a couple of hours outside of Hà Nội (Hanoi). And they had to move down. I only learned this recently, actually, like a few months ago, that my mom’s family moved down, I think in the ‘50s or ‘60s. And like if they hadn’t, then her father would have been killed, which is kind of crazy to learn. And I feel like that happens a lot in our family where we learn these like really fundamental or like huge details. I wouldn’t even call them details. They’re like really big events in like our family history that aren’t even talked about or mentioned until, you know, I’m 34, so like 34 years later. Yeah. But–but then they spent most of their like childhoods and, I guess, young adulthoods in Saigon. My mom left maybe when she was in her early twenties, I think, or maybe when she was twenty or late teens. 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:40.000 She left Việt Nam (Vietnam) to come to the U.S.? 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:53.000 Yeah. She left like the day that Saigon fell in ’75. And my dad left later, in ’78 or ’79. 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:57.000 Okay. Did they already know each other in Vietnam? 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:19.000 No! They happened to meet each other in Tulsa, because they both started going to college at the University of Tulsa. And I think, if I’m remembering correctly, it’s my–my aunt, one of my mom’s younger sisters, who knew my dad somehow. And that’s how they met, through her. 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.000 Okay. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:48.000 Yeah. Yeah. I mean the–I–I think the Vietnamese community was pretty small in–in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or like growing actually because I heard that there are a lot of Vietnamese people who are still there now. But I imagine it’s like a smaller community on campus which is like where they mostly met people. 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:59.000 Okay. When they came to the U.S., did they land directly in Tulsa or were there like a few stops along the way? Did they stay in a camp somewhere? 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:50.000 (nods) Yeah. I’m not a hundred percent sure about my mom. I know she did stay in a camp somewhere, but I don’t remember where it was. And my dad had quite a journey between leaving Vietnam and coming to Tulsa. And he started writing about it recently. And like what I knew before was that he went to Brunei. But I don’t think that’s where his–the camp was that he stayed at. But, um, I’m not sure. And I know that before they came to Tulsa, at least for my dad, his older sister was already in Arkansas. So, yeah. I’m not sure about like the timeline at all. 00:04:50.000 --> 00:05:10.000 Okay. Okay. That’s very interesting. If we could back track for a moment, and–and if you want to share, do you know why your mom’s family had to move around? You said your grandfather might have been killed. (Vo nods) Do you know anything about that, that you would want to share? 00:05:10.000 --> 00:06:13.000 Um, from what I understand, it had to do with politics because the north was more communist and I think—I know that when they went to the south, like my uncles joined the military in south Vietnam and then maybe some other family members were working with the government, or in the government, because that was part of why they–my mom was able to leave by, I think, helicopter like the day that Saigon fell. So, I think that was part of it. Yeah. And–and then my understanding of history is fuzzy too, because I know like ‘50s and ‘60s there are already like things happening in the country leading up to the–the war and America joining in that, in conflict with the— I don’t know. 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:20.000 Okay. Okay. Has your mom said anything about the journey? 00:06:20.000 --> 00:09:44.000 She is not a storyteller the way that my dad is. My dad likes telling stories and when we were young like, you know, elementary school age before middle school, he would tell us stories about growing up and his childhood. And so, I always felt like I knew more about my dad. And then my mom kind of thinks— It’s interesting, because maybe the past few years, I started calling my mom almost every morning on my way to work or on my way home from work to talk to her. And then she would tell me stories like that, which is why I think she told me about like why her family left the north. Because she will start like reminiscing. But before that if we were talking and I–my brother and I would ask a question, she’s like “I don’t really remember a lot” or something or say something like that which is why I thought she didn’t have a lot of stories. But she obviously does. Like when she gets into the—when something sparks her memory, she’ll think and talk about it at length. But when you ask her like a more general question, maybe, she’ll have more trouble just thinking of a memory. But then lately she’ll–she’ll talk more about the day that she left and she’ll— Two of the things she always mentions about leaving Vietnam is how it’s related to food. Like her cousin had really severe asthma. And then she’ll say, “It was miraculous. Like the soldiers gave us a can of tuna and he ate it. And then his asthma was gone!” And–or something like that. And then also she said that when they first came to America, they were handing out donuts and she didn’t know—or they were handing out these baked goods, which were donuts. But she didn’t know what they were. And then she asked like “What are these?” Because they were amazing. And she learned about donuts and I was like “That makes so much sense.” She only told us that memory in the past few years. So, it makes so much sense now to me why she loves donuts so much. Like she’s so–she’s so like passionate about Krispy Kreme donuts and like she’ll buy a dozen or half dozen donuts and she’s the type of person who’ll only eat like this much of the donut (indicates a small pinch with her right hand) and she’ll cut a little slice (indicates cutting slices with her hand) off of a donut and eat it throughout the day. (both laugh) But, yeah, she does have like stories like that. But I’ve only started to learn more about those stories that she has because of the—I don’t know—just the way she is about sharing and memory, I think. 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:51.000 So, why do you think she’s recently started opening up about her background and her–her life? 00:09:51.000 --> 00:11:15.000 I think part of it is like for a while it would take me like forty minutes to drive home from work when I was commuting to New York, like the forty minute, thirty minutes to get home from the train station. And then now I have like about forty minutes of driving and walking to work and that’s a lot of time. And–and she will sometimes just talk. And also, I think being older now we’re at a different place in our relationship, as well. I had to—Someone asked me like what my relationship was like with my mother growing up and I was—I thought that was an interesting question. Because it’s like she was my mom, but we didn’t share things with each other like thoughts and feelings. (laughs). But I don’t know how it’s different now, like how–how and why that changes as you get older. I’m still thinking about that. 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:28.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. And what about your dad? You said he’s kind of a storyteller. Has he said anything about his journey? 00:11:28.000 --> 00:14:04.000 He says a lot of stuff. (laughs) And I think, you know, like with a lot of things you kind of start shaping the narrative as–as you keep telling it over and over. So, even when we were young, he told us about going to Brunei and he left on a boat with a bunch of other people and how he–he had to—like, they were running out of water and food. And he jumped off the boat with two other people to swim to shore to kind of–to get help or to like see if they could land there or anchor there. And then like now that I’m saying it, like I was maybe nine or so. So, my brother would have been like six, seven. But he would tell us about how those two other people who jumped in with him probably were eaten by sharks because they were never found again, after they jumped off the ship to swim to shore and also that when he got to shore, he got really sick and was put in a jail. And like–like those were the details he told us as children. But then–then when he started writing his memoir, there were so many more details to it like that I never thought of but are, I guess, are obvious. Like how far the swim was from the boat to shore. Like he said it took him almost all day, or like all afternoon and other details like that. So, I think—So, I feel like he’s a storyteller. He likes writing and he likes writing poetry. And he’s shared it with us, and he feels comfortable sharing it—like what he’s written—with other people too. (gray cat jumps on her lap) So, I think that’s part of his personality, which is interesting. Because it’s interesting to think about what people choose to share with you or–and others. Yeah. 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:10.000 Are you and your siblings pretty receptive to what he shares? 00:14:10.000 --> 00:15:24.000 Yeah. We get really—We’re really supportive of him sharing, because like it’s part of our family history and our father’s–our dad’s story. My dad ge–or my brother, he gets very into it and he’ll ask a ton of questions. And I always think his questions are obnoxious but (laughs) it’s just like it’s because he’s like curious and he wants to connect to the person sharing in that way, which I guess I’ve just realized now, saying that out loud (laughs). But, yeah. I wish that he would—my dad—would keep writing his memoir and kind of like keep continue sharing it with us. But he also works a lot. So, sometimes his priority—or not sometimes—all the time his priority is working. 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:44.000 Yeah. Sure. Okay. Thank you. Okay, so let’s talk more about you. You were born in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Were you —Tell me about your siblings. How many of you are there? What order you were born in? 00:15:44.000 --> 00:16:39.000 I’m the oldest and then I have a younger brother. He is three years younger than me. So, after Tulsa, we moved to California. I always forget which city, but I think it’s Chino Hills or La Brea in southern California, when I was two, I guess, and then my brother came along. And we were in California for a couple more years. We moved when I was six, so when he was three. But it was nice being a big sister, I guess, (chuckles) sometimes. Yeah. 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:46.000 Why did you move from Tulsa to California? 00:16:46.000 --> 00:17:29.000 My dad, when I was still like one or two, he was study–or he was in a doctoral program studying petroleum engineering. And so he got a job after he graduated, I think. And so, he worked for Unocal at the time before—I mean, years later they merged or Chevron bought them–bought them or whatever that—however that goes. But that was the reason why we moved a lot was because of his job. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.000 Okay. Is he still in that line of work today? 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:58.000 Yes. He is. He is almost, well, he should be retiring soon. But he says that every year, that he’s retiring soon. But he’s been with the same company for–since then, since–since Oklahoma or California, I guess. 00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:59.000 Oh, wow! 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.000 Since California. 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:41.000 Okay, that's great. Okay. So, where did you—So, I guess two questions. And you can answer them together if you want to. But after—How long did you live in California? And then also I’m curious about your–your childhood in these different places, if there was a Vietnamese community. You mentioned briefly that there was a Vietnamese community in Tulsa. But also, I wanted to hear about in California and then the other places you grew up and what your relationship–or your family’s relationship to the community was like. 00:18:41.000 --> 00:35:26.000 Yeah. I think it was in California we lived further away—I think a big part of community, at least in our family, is being close to family. Since our extended family is so large. So, in California, I remember that my grandmothers, both of them were alive while we were growing up but we never met our grandfathers. Or there was one grandfather we did meet, but—or I met—but I was too young to remember. Like family would have to visit us in California because of where we lived. I think most people lived up in San Jose or—Yeah. I think it’s mostly San Jose. We have one family member in Chino Hills and there’s like a complicated history with that, too. For me, community is really linked to family because those are the main links that we had with like the Vietnamese community rather than friends even. Even now I think my parents like a lot of their social lives revolve around family rather than like friends or the wider community. But family can be really huge since it’s like they can keep like they can keep straight in their heads all of their cousins and their cousin’s cousins and stuff like that. So, it’s always–it always feels much bigger than it sounds, I guess. And then like in California we didn’t live near family. They live in San Jose and I think that was a few hours away. But they did visit sometimes. And a lot of the time family who were still in Tulsa would visit—or not a lot of the time, but like sometimes they would visit, especially when my brother was born. My grandmothers came to visit and help out with the baby and to watch me. And–and so we were in California for only about three and a half or four years and we moved to Louisiana which feels really far away from much community. But apparently there was a Vietnamese community in the area. Because at my school—the elementary school that I went to—there was another Vo family. And they had a lot of kids and my mom always talks about how she would meet someone at school and they’d be like “Are all those kids yours?” because they also had the same last name. But like I never—They weren’t in my class. I think they were younger or older. And–and then I did have friends, but there’s like one or two friends who I played with on the playground. And I went to someone’s house like once or twice. But I feel like growing up we were always very, I don’t want to say insular, but we were always like very centered in our family, our immediate family and our extended family. I had cousins who were around my age, like the same age as me or like between one and three or–one and three years younger or so. And they would visit a lot too. So, we had a few family vacations where they’d drive from Dallas because by that time, when I was like six, people started moving down from Tulsa to Dallas in like the suburbs around Dallas. And so like the–the cousins on my mom’s side of the family were closer in age to me. The oldest cousin was maybe five years older than me. Whereas on my dad’s side, he was the youngest of like nine or ten kids. So, the oldest cousin on that side was like only eight or ten years younger than my dad, (chuckles) so a lot older than me. So, we were always—my brother and I were always closer with my maternal cousins. And I was trying to say that we sometimes went on summer vacation like–like long road trips to Alabama to the beach. And we did that a couple times. So, I think then when we moved overseas it was a lot harder to have community like in the way that we did with our families. We would see our relatives every summer and like spend two or almost three months with them. So, they were still a big part of our lives but for the rest of the year, it’s like very different. So, we first moved to Indonesia when I was nine and since my dad worked and works for a petroleum engineering–or like in the petroleum industry, a lot of people are very conservative and white and Republican and Christian. So, the first place we moved to was also really small and the majority of the expat community was that type of person—so, like everyone in my class and the classes were very small. There was like one year where the eighth-grade class was only three students. And then after eighth grade, you had either move or send your kids to boarding school in Singapore. And that was why we moved when I was in eighth grade, because my parents didn’t want me to go to boarding school and be on my own, which I am grateful for. But that was a very difficult move. But I feel like there was no community in–in Indonesia. I did have friends that I saw, and I went to their houses. But I think it’s–I always think it’s interesting how— (camera freezes) Um, so in Indonesia, I think since we didn’t have community in that way, I think that was why my parents were looking for Buddhist temple for us to go to which I think was really interesting because that was the only place that we lived where they did that. And I feel like that’s part of–that must have been part of them seeking to find connection in some way. So, Indonesia is like a predominantly Muslim country, but there’s like a small ethnic minority of Chinese Buddhists. And so, we did find a temple and we went there several times. And I remember we tried one place first. And these experiences were really strange as a little kid. Because like you go somewhere and you’re like “I don’t know what’s happening.” And then also like with these kind of religious things, my parents didn’t really explain them to me. They were just like “We’re doing this,” and no reason why or like they tell–tell me to hold the incense and pray or whatever. But then I didn’t know what praying was, kind of, like just think of things that I want. (laughs) But like at the time, especially when I was like eleven and twelve, I would start praying a lot. This is—I’ve got kind of getting off track a little. But like it’d be very concerning to me to like pray for the health and safety of my family. But anyway, I think that was why we started going to temple was to find some kind of connection to some part of our culture in a–in a different country and in a different country among so many like white Christians. And when we moved again, it was to Bangkok, Thailand although we lived in like a suburb which was another ex–expat community. And there were lots of different types of people because it was a much bigger place. Like I mentioned the other—and Indonesia is very, very small. And so, moving to Bangkok is like the school was a lot bigger. The community was a lot bigger and the people who lived in the community weren’t just people who had kids going to the school there. And there were more—I guess that was the same with the oth–with living in Indonesia but you don’t—I don’t know. Anyway, it was a lot bigger, and Thailand is a Buddhist country. So, like there were more opportunities to kind of connect to like broadly Southeast Asian culture. And we also didn’t go to temple anymore (laughs) which is really interesting. I don’t—I think when my dad did work with people who were Vietnamese, he would always invite them over for dinner and stuff like that. But then that didn’t happen too often. But also living in Thailand, we were a lot closer to Vietnam and Bangkok is a more attractive destination to visit. So, like we still had family who were in, I guess, Hồ Chí Minh City (Ho Chi Minh City). And we were able to—First we went to see them. So, like soon after we moved to Thailand, we went to see them. So, I think that’s where the–the lines of like community intersecting with family were being like—family being a big part of community comes back again. And then they also came to visit us in Thailand. Yeah. I think—And then for myself like I’ve only been more interested in reconnecting with my Vietnamese-ness, I guess. Especially now that I’m like in the northeast where it feels like there aren’t a lot of Vietnamese people. So, like I joined an employee—like a staff group, I guess, at work. They have like different—They’re kind of identity based because there’s like a women’s—they call them ERGs, which are Employee Resource Groups. There’s like a women’s group and an LGBTQIA group. And then there’s a south Asian, I think, and a Princetonians of color group and there’s also an Asian staff group. So, I joined them and like I recently organized a tour of the library and special collections. And I got to meet some other people who are Vietnamese which was really exciting and like learning about—like one of them grew up in New Jersey. So, I was like fascinated by that. (laughs) And it does sound like a lot of the time like the communities kind of center around a church or something. And then it sounds like they’re not like in my immediate area. There’s like different little communities in other areas around New Jersey. And I know there’s like a big—there’s kind of like a little Saigon in Philadelphia. And when my parents came to visit us one time, we went to visit Philly and go there. But I haven’t been back. Philadelphia is like an hour and fifteen minutes from where I am. So, it’s not a short drive. Yeah. But I feel like building and finding community is really hard when it’s not—I don’t know. Like if I were—Like my brother lives in Los Angeles. Like he could just go to like different parts of Los Angeles to find like cultural or community activities to join. But I feel like it’s not quite the same as when we were in Indonesia and like were really isolated and felt really different. But it’s still kind of close. (chuckles) Yeah. And it’s also weird being an expat in anoth–in an overseas country when you’re an American. And then you’re in an Asian country as an Asian person or—and people don’t get that. They like–they think you’re either like from, you say—If you say you’re—I remember like when I moved–first moved to Thailand, I–we had to introduce ourselves. And I said I was American. And then someone was like retorted and said I wasn’t because, you know, I’m not white. And like—so, that experience is really interesting, too, because people who are Thai think that I’m Japanese or Chinese or something else that I’m not. And then, you know, other people think I’m Thai or like if I tell someone I grew up in Thailand, they’ll think I’m Thai and stuff like that. So, it’s really weird. 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:38.000 Mmm. That is–yeah–that’s a weird experience that I think a lot of people like us can relate to but that needs to be spoken about more. So, I’m glad you brought that up. 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.000 Yeah. 00:35:39.000 --> 00:36:44.000 So, you said that you’re–you’re like–you’re getting in touch with your Vietnamese-ness, and I like the way you put that. How did you feel as a kid–as a kid like in all these different places. Like how did you–how did you identify yourself then? Like, you know, whether consciously or not. Like what did you perceive yourself as? And how–and related to that, I’m more interested in how you thought about your own identity? But I’m also curious about if your parents, intentionally or not, kind of tried to sway your identity one way or the other. Like how much did they try to hold on to–hold on to this heritage? And–and in what specific ways if I can ask? Like I guess obvious examples would be like, you know, taking you to the temple and praying. But–but what other ways did they–did they hold on to identity? And then in what ways did they just kind of like “eh,” like let you be American so to speak. (Vo laughs) 00:36:44.000 --> 00:38:41.000 Yeah. That’s a really good question. And I don’t even know if I remember like what I thought of myself as. I really do think, though—Because like it was a while ago, and I’m guessing that because I introduced myself as being American (chuckles) like that’s what I kind of thought of myself as. And I do also remember like other Asian students who were at the international school with me asking like what ethnicity I was. And like then I would say I was Vietnamese, but I think it’s weird living overseas because your nationality kind of matters, I guess in a weird way, like legally as well. But like how you can connect to other people because of what–whatever shared cultural touchpoints there are. Because I went to a school, and I didn’t realize this until later. But because, um, but because my dad’s company paid for us, paid for our tuition and a lot of other American kids’ dads or moms or guardians or whatever, like their jobs would pay for tuition too. Tuition was really high so like a lot of the Thai kids who went to school with us were really wealthy. And like I think that was a really—now I’m getting off topic again because (chuckles and twirls her right pointer finger in the air) — 00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:43.000 That’s okay. That’s all right. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:41:48.000 So, going back though is like I think I really thought of myself as American because we kind of—at least at that school, like the cliques and the groups of the way that kids kind of group each other is mostly by nationality and language. So, there were always a lot of–there were–there’s like the Japanese kids, the Taiwanese kids, the Indian kids, and like–and then the American kids which also included Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand and British kids. So, it was like that was a weird mix because I feel like things, you know, like nationality and language have some sep–like some ways that they intersect in interesting ways, I guess. But then, um, but then like my mom still today would be like she used the word American as an interchangeable word with white. Like she’ll say, “They’re American.” But she actually means they’re white because, you know, we’re also American but when we lived overseas it was like that was–she would–we would identify as being Americans, I guess. It’s very weird like how it changed from the context of where we were. And I think that the only thing that was really Vietnamese about us was like the food that we ate, because at home my parents didn’t make us speak Vietnamese or like they didn’t punish us if we only spoke English. Because we would only respond in English. So, I think they gave up on that. But they still, you know, would use a mix of English and Vietnamese with us. And I think that, yeah, I don’t want to just think of identity as just being language and food and religion. But those are the big things that I think about, I think, when I think of my identity. And I know there all the–a lot of others, little things as well that show up in other, more subtle ways, I guess. But those are the big things that—the bigger, obvious things that I can think of. 00:41:48.000 --> 00:42:17.000 Okay. Okay. (Vo laughs) Thank you for that. Tell us—So, you mentioned food. Tell me what mealtimes were like in your family. Like who did the–the cooking and the cleaning and were your parents or your mom—Well, I don’t want to assume anything but were your parents (Vo laughs) like open to different types of food? Yeah. What do you think of when you think about your childhood and eating? 00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:49.000 I think I was really lucky (chuckles) because like my mom was the cook in the family. So, after my dad finished his Ph.D., my mom stopped working. She used to be an accountant and supported the family and supported my dad through school. But then he got a full-time job and that became like he became the primary—what’s the word—the primary— 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:50.000 Breadwinner? 00:42:50.000 --> 00:44:12.000 Yeah. (chuckles) And so she spent a lot of time cooking for us. And I feel really lucky because like I definitely couldn’t like make the kind of meals that she did. Because like she always had two or three dishes at the table even if—and then she’ll, you know, like talking to her now, she’ll say like “It’s really easy to just, you know, sauté some vegetables with—and then focus on a bigger dish.” But like that’s a lot of time. And she had like a repertoire of foods that she’d always make but then like she always like try–she still likes trying to make new dishes and lately she’s—well, not lately but like over the past five or so years, my parents have both been really into the k-dramas. So, like she’s been cooking a lot of, and trying out a lot of Korean dishes. And like before that she tried out a lot of Japanese dishes because she loves watching cooking shows on NHK (Japan Broadcasting Corporation) and stuff like that. And even— 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:14.000 What’s NHK? 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:22.000 It’s—I don’t know what it stands for but it’s like the Japanese channel on TV. 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:23.000 Oh. 00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:43.000 And they have like an English language version, so like an international version as well. And that plays in the U.S. too. But I think like in Japan like NHK is the big broadcasting corporation. 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:45.000 Okay. 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.000 I guess it maybe, maybe analogous to like the BBC or something. 00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:49.000 Okay. 00:44:49.000 --> 00:47:24.000 I don’t know. Yeah. But they played that on US t–US television and my mom likes the cooking shows. And I think she–she definitely likes more east Asian and southeast Asian cuisine. But she’s also tried cooking like Italian food and other like “American” foods. I remember this chick–this really gross chicken salad she tried making that had like potato chips on it. I think that’s the only thing that she ever made that I really didn’t like that she tried making. But yeah, she’s always—And like that’s the way that she–that’s her–that’s the way she shows her care. And even not just for her family but like for guests and stuff. Like the way that she puts so much care and attention to her cooking and meal planning, I feel like has really affected how I also, you know, show care to people now too. Because she really goes all out! (chuckles) Like during visits not even like several days of visiting but even just like one meal visit, she’ll cook a lot of food. And mealtimes were—I really liked the meals that I grew up having with my family. Because we’d like all sit down and there would be several dishes to eat and it would always be delicious. (chuckles) Yeah. My brother was a picky eater growing up but I don’t remember him being picky at home, just at restaurants. When we’d go to a restaurant, we’d have to stop at a fast-food chain if there was one and get him French fries and chicken nuggets or whatever. But I don’t remember that being an issue at home. So, I–my mom knew how to cook for a picky eater. (laughs) 00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:27.000 That’s awesome. It sounds like she’s an amazing cook. 00:47:27.000 --> 00:48:21.000 She is! Like it’s funny because of the way she is when you want—And because her food is so good, we’ll want to learn how to cook from her. But her impulse is just to make it without showing you how to. My brother always tells the story now about how his–his partner wanted to learn how to make chả giò (cha gio, egg rolls) and–but then she got home late from work. And when they got—And my mom was—But first like she wanted to learn how to make it and my mom said she would show Shannon how to make it. But then when Shannon got home from work, my mom already made them, because she (laughs) because, I don’t know. 00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:28.000 Yeah. It’s sounds like your mom is similar to my mom, and I would describe my mom as maybe impatient? 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:58.000 Yeah. Maybe that’s the—She is impatient. And also, I think she would dismiss any like, any—not criticism but like if–but when Shannon came home and was like “Oh, I wanted to learn how to make this with you.” I think my mom would be like “You’re coming home so late. You’re tired. So, I made them.” Like, “I did it for you!” (both laugh) 00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:09.000 That's nice. What’s your favorite thing that your mom makes? Like if you were having a birthday dinner, and she was like “I’ll make you whatever you want.” What would you ask for? 00:49:09.000 --> 00:50:10.000 Every time I go home, I ask for bún riêu (bun rieu) because my mom’s bun rieu is really good. I tried making it once and I think I even–she even—So, she loves cooking and I guess she loves me so much that I’ll ask for a modified recipe, and she’ll write one for me. I know a lot of people —like I feel like a lot of people with, you know, immigrant parents who cook will like–they’ll–their response is like “There’s no recipe. I just use my, you know, my intuition.” But my mom—maybe it’s my luck that she also likes recording things. So, she also has like written up almost or like the majority of her recipes or like the ones that we really like. 00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:12.000 Wow! 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:35.000 Yeah. And this was like early 2000 so there was a lot of clip art in the Word documents. And she printed them out and put them in books or binders for us. But like when I wanted a vegetarian version of bun rieu she wrote one for me. (laughs) 00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:36.000 Oh! 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:38.000 Yeah. 00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:42.000 That’s amazing! I’ve never heard of that from an Asian mother. (laughs) So, you are— 00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:43.000 I know! 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:45.000 —really lucky! 00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:47.000 Yeah. She—I feel like that and also like she loves taking photos and for a long time she–and still now, she like has a bunch of photo albums. And like she’s still working through them because, you know, now we take photos like–like it’s nothing. (laughs) So, I think that–that’s slowed her down a lot because now she takes so many pictures. But yeah. I would say that’s my favorite dish. I know that when I was younger, chicken curry was my favorite because my family would tease me a lot about how I would lick the bowl clean because I loved it so much. (laughs) But it’s really hard to pick one dish because she’s really great at cooking. 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:54.000 Mmm. That’s cool. Yeah. Curry is my favorite Vietnamese thing. But only the way my mom makes it. So— 00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:00.000 Yeah. Yeah! (laughs) 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:24.000 So, you mentioned—I guess I want to back track again. You mentioned briefly about your grandparents. Can you tell me more about them and anything that you know about them and where they lived during your life? And how often you–you saw them? I think you said you didn’t really see them. But anything you wanted to add about them? 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:31.000 Yeah. I did see my grandmothers every summer when we visited the United States. 00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:34.000 Where did they live? 00:52:34.000 --> 00:58:10.000 For the two—Um, my bà ngoại (ba ngoai, maternal grandmother) lived in Tulsa. She lived with her son and her daughter. And then my bà nội (ba noi, paternal grandmother) lived in Dallas or like around Dallas. And she lived with one of my aunts. I don’t remember which number she is. My dad has a lot of sisters. He has two brothers. That’s easy to remember. And then the rest are sisters. And I re–never met my grandfathers. One of–My dad’s dad, my ông nội (ong noi, paternal grandfather), lived–or never got to leave Vietnam. He died in Vietnam. And my dad has talked about like how the last time he saw him was like before he left Vietnam. So, that was—I think there’s—Well, I can’t speak to that, how my dad feels about that. I think he feels, you know, sad about it. And he’s written a poem about it. (laughs) So, I feel like there’s some kind of–there’s a little resolution there because he’s able to talk about it. But, you know, it’s like a–a–I wouldn’t call it a regret, but like a weight maybe. And my–my ông ngoại (ong ngoai, maternal grandfather), I think he was in California and that’s where he’s–he was–I don’t know. I think he was cremated and he’s in Tulsa, though. I don’t remember the timeline or what happened with him. But he did make it to America for a little while. I think he might have died in ’90 or something. And then–But then my grandmothers, they–they lived until 2013, I think. They actually died a week apart and I was in grad school at the time. Like one grandmother was 90 or 91, my–my ba noi. And then ba ngoai was in her late 80s. It’s kind of crazy how they both passed around the same time. So, I think what my paren—My parents do đám giỗ (dam gio, death anniversary) every year for them, and also my uncle who passed, and also my grandfathers. So, I do–we do think about them a lot or continue to. But I do know that my ba noi was in—I think she was born—if she was 90, then she was like born in the ‘20s. And my dad had once or twice mentioned that she lived in, during, you know, like the Japanese occupation. So, she—But she never—And I was never really able to talk to either of my grandmothers. Because my Vietnamese is really bad (laughs). I’m able to understand basic things that they would say to me, but then more complicated things were difficult. And I think it was—Since they did live until their–until 2013, that was when I started to be more interested in my cultural heritage. And I tried learning Vietnamese on my own. And that’s been a struggle. (laughs) But like in their last year or so, I wrote them letters in Vietnamese, and I feel glad that I was able to connect with them in that way before they were gone. Because I wasn’t really able to, you know, before that. And I feel like as kids I took them for–as a kid, I took them for granted. They were just always around. They didn’t really do a lot. At least my ba ngoai didn’t do a lot. I think it was hard for her because she—Like ba noi had some many family members around, like her daughters, her grandchildren. And she seemed to have a more active social life. But then being in Tulsa, I think it was harder for ba ngoai to have an active social life and community. And so, she was home a lot. And–and we were home a lot too, but we were kids and just wanted to have fun doing kid stuff. Yeah. 00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:25.000 Did you ever get any kind of sense from them about–about how they felt about being in the U.S. and about leaving Vietnam? 00:58:25.000 --> 01:01:30.000 No. Not at all. (chuckles) Like–like my communication skills were really limited. And then also I, since we were only–we saw them like two, a few weeks out of the year, too. So, like that also made it harder to–to connect with them, I think. Because during the summer, it was like always so exciting to get to back to the States and see my cousins who I was really close to. And so, my—And also like when we were in Indonesia, there weren’t—the only fast-food place was a KFC in the city. And like we’d be so excited to eat junk food and like do American type things, like go to the movies and watch TV, that it was never important to me. And I regret that like now. To talk to them or try to talk to them. So, most of our conversations were like about eating, like “Did you have lunch yet?” And it’s funny how my ba ngoai would–we would have like junk food for lunch and then she’d ask if we ate, and we’d say we’d had Wendy’s or something. And she’d say “That’s not really lunch. You have to have like a meal with rice to like, you know—” (chuckles) So, like conversations are limited to food and like I think that’s part of like how food is such a big part of being Vietnamese. Because like there’s so many conversations and like questions about food. (laughs) Like “did you eat yet?” and then like comments about food and how much you’re eating, and what you look like— (laughs) and stuff like that. But yeah. Yeah, my Vietnamese was very bad, and I think that part of it was because we lived away from our relatives and from community. And I think maybe my other–my other relatives thought that we weren’t as Vietnamese for not being able to speak Vietnamese. I think a lot of people like have that experience among their family members. (laughs) 01:01:30.000 --> 01:02:03.000 Yeah. Did your—I have so many, full of questions related to what you just said (both are laughing) so I’m trying to pick one. So, do you feel like your–your Vietnamese language ability—Or how does your–how does your level of language ability affect your interactions with other Vietnamese people, whether they’re Vietnamese American like us or like people like from Vietnam? Like how–how does that play into how you perceive yourself and how you think they perceive you? 01:02:03.000 --> 01:04:05.000 Yeah. That’s a really big question. (Both chuckle) I talked to someone recently who was saying that she grew up in Vietnam until she was like ten and then came to the United States. And so, Eng–English is her second language but being an adult now like I’m guessing in her forties or—that she’s lost a lot of that Vietnamese language. And I felt a lot of like regret from her about that because I think it’s such an integral part of being, you know, of saying that you’re from somewhere or that you’re from some part of some culture. And people make a big deal out of it, too. Like–like my cousins who are definitely like fluent or more fluent than I am and like they’ll always tease me about it. And then–and then I join in sometimes too, because my brother’s Vietnamese is worse now, about like, you know, pronunciation and stuff. And I feel like, I don’t know. It’s not cool. (laughs) Like I know that I join in on it sometimes too but like language isn’t part of—it’s only a little part of it, I guess, of who you are. And, um, I forgot the rest of your question. 01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:20.000 Oh, that’s okay. It was a long question. It was just related to language and how people see you and how you see yourself. And then also how it affects your interactions with other Vietnamese people. 01:04:20.000 --> 01:06:52.000 Right. There was a day recently where I met Vietnamese people in the area. It was that work event. And we were talking because there was another Vietnamese person there. And we were talking about surnames. And I said my surname, but I said it the American way. And he corrected me. (laughs) And so like–like it’s funny but it’s also like–it also feels another way. Like, I don’t know. Maybe I haven’t–I’m still struggling with that question. I think it’s something that may never be resolved. Because I feel like I’ve lost a lot from not having that language. And I feel like it probably was my first language, you know, before I went to school. And then like even my cousin who is only three months older than me, when she started school, she had to be in an ESL program, because they only spoke Vietnamese at home. And I feel like, yeah, I don’t know. I feel like I’ve lost a lot by losing my language. And I think that’s why that other person I met feels that way too. Like you lose something from losing language. And it makes me feel a little emotional. Yeah. Like even though I’ve never been fluent except, you know, at a toddler age fluency (laughs) it still feels like a loss and—Because you—like I mentioned, I never was able to have conversations with my elders, my grandmothers. And I think that’s—And like that’s something you can never get back. 01:06:52.000 --> 01:07:04.000 Yeah. Thank you for answering. And even though it was emotional, I appreciate that. It’s something I think about a lot, so I felt like I had to ask you. 01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:07.000 Yeah. 01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:35.000 Okay. Let me just ask one more question, since I think we’ve been talking for a while. I say that and I–I’m trying to choose a question (laughs) because I just–I still have so many. I’m sorry. We’ll have to cut this part. (Both laugh) 01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:39.000 Okay. 01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:56.000 Do you–Do your–Did your parents ever talk to you about what it means to be a Vietnamese person? 01:07:56.000 --> 01:10:52.000 Not really. Like not directly. A lot of what they taught me about it is like–it’s like how I mentioned we’d go to temple or like go to some kind of ceremony and they’d tell me what to do, but not explain it. (chuckles) I feel like the explanation part would really fill out what it is to be Vietnamese. But at the same time, you don’t really need it, I guess, because I don’t know. Like even not knowing what it is that I’m doing (laughs) or understanding why it is I do things, it’s like coming from them and it’s coming from like generations of people before them. So, it feels Vietnamese. (laughs) Like they’ve never—I guess I’ve had some moments, not with them, but like with other relatives who–who going back to the language thing like I think like because there were times because they didn’t have—or didn’t know words or didn’t know how to say something, they’d ask me like—Or maybe even with food, I don’t know. Like little things. They’d ask me if I—like how American I was versus how Vietnamese I was. And that’s like—But that was never something my parents would say. So, I feel like their instruction (laughs) has been very indirect. And I feel like–I feel like I’m the type of person that, with a lot of things, I feel like I’ve missed things when people are indirect. Like I feel so complicated when someone says or does something and they have layers of intention behind that, and then I didn’t–I don’t think about it. And I didn’t realize like that’s what they meant. But I hope that like in some subconscious way (chuckles) I–I know that’s what they meant by, I don’t know, not sure if that makes sense. 01:10:52.000 --> 01:11:10.000 Do you mean that like when people are indirect about their intentions when they’re communicating them? That’s–that’s related to being Vietnamese. (Vo laughs) Because we just–we just do things because it’s traditional. Like is that possibly where you were going? 01:11:10.000 --> 01:13:18.000 That’s part of it. I guess part of what I’m thinking is like in social interactions my mom will sometimes explain why or why not she will say or not say something to someone else. And I feel like seeing the level of nuance in like that type of communication, I’m like—It makes me feel like being indirect and like implying something. Like that mode of communication is a little Vietnamese, maybe. But–and that’s why I’ve never really received like a direct like “This is what it means to be Vietnamese. Like we do things this way.” But also, I wonder like how much of it is just like individual quirks. Because my cousin says Vietnamese people are always late. But my parents are always early. (chuckles) So, I thought like being early was being Vietnamese. (laughs) But–but that might just be my parents who are very on time and like my dad will be ready to go something thirty minutes early. And I think that’s his anxiety. (laughs) Yeah. That’s what I mean. Like you get hints like that. But sometimes it’s hard to know. Like what it means or like yeah. I don’t know if that makes sense. 01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Yeah. I–Well I mean it was a complicated question and it’s not something that’s easily defined, I don’t think, by anybody. So, I appreciate your thoughts on it. So, thank you. Okay. So, let’s wrap up this conversation and then in our next conversations we’ll talk more about–we’ll continue to talk about community and identity but also about your adulthood. (Both laugh) 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Okay. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:48.000 Okay. 01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:49.000 Well, thank you, Jenn. 01:13:49.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Yeah. Thanks Amy. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.&#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.xml VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vo, Amy. Interview November 10, 2022. Description An account of the resource Amy Vo is an archivist in New Jersey. In this interview, she shares her experiences growing up in cities and countries around the world and her experiences being the only Vietnamese American person in these places. She also reflects on her heritage and what it means to be in community with other Vietnamese people. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-108 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Vo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer H Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Indonesia; Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam); Vinh Long (Province); Hanoi (Vietnam); Saigon (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright.</a> Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hac Tran OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Chicago OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Tran, Hac. Interview April 25, 2023. SC027-107 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Chicago Vietnam immigration community Vietnamese American identity Hac Tran Jennifer Ho moving image TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5b8ef81b80a4c8239d06fed2bf8486bf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history of Hac Tran on April 25, 2023, by Jennifer Ho. 0 26 Childhood and Vietnamese community Hac talks about his childhood in Chicago and his early connection to the Vietnamese American community. He speaks of his parents’ involvement in the community and shares their backgrounds and migration stories. Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Argyle ; Uptown ; Chicago ; diaspora ; Tet ; Nam Dinh ; Hanoi ; Hai Duong ; Hai Phong ; French colonialism ; Da Lat ; Saigon ; Wake Island ; Trinity Christian College ; Palos Heights ; Milwaukee ; Chinatown ; Oak Park ; Mimosa Café 0 629 Restaurant life Hac talks about Mimosa Café, the restaurant his parents opened in the 1980s, and shares his memories there. He also talks about his recent visit to the restaurant, and reflects on his parents motivation to open the restaurant. Red hots ; Wheaton North High School ; Head Start ; Glendale Heights ; Vietnamese community ; restaurant kid ; Nam Dinh ; pho 0 1095 Family relationships Hac talks about his relationships with his immediate and extended family. Milwaukee ; Glendale Heights ; cousins ; California ; Texas 0 1291 Asia on Argyle, Vietnamese identity and media representation Hac reflects on his long relationship with the Argyle community, as well as his Vietnamese identity and how it has evolved through the years. He talks about the media and books that have impacted him personally. Lunar new year ; DePaul University ; Christopher House ; Uptown ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Chinese Mutual Aid Association ; Texas ; media representation ; racism ; Jet Li ; Trinh Cong Son ; Bob Dylan ; Joan Baez ; Khanh Ly ; nhac vang ; Bolero music ; nhac trinh ; Modern Talking ; New Wave ; Andrew X. Pham ; Catfish and Mandala 0 2060 Argyle shops and restaurants Hac talks about the businesses on Argyle. He mentions some of his favorite meals at local restaurants. Tai Nam ; Double Happiness ; Hong Kee ; Vietnamese Chinese ; Teochew ; Jennifer Pham ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Nha Hang Viet Nam ; Da Nang Kitchen ; Quang Nam ; Mi Quang ; Pho 777 ; Hanoi ; Café Hoang ; Hue 0 2324 Life plans, Vietnam and culture Hac talks about his community ambassador role in the Uptown neighborhood, and why he didn’t expect to be working here as an adult. He describes his time living and working in Vietnam and the plans he had at the time. He also talks about the idea of moving back to Vietnam, and how culture evolves. Argyle ; Budapest ; Hungary ; Texas ; non-governmental organization ; Save the Children ; Quang Nam ; Le Ly Hayslip ; gentrification ; culture 0 2652 Vietnamese American identity Hac reflects on what makes us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American. food ; Prague ; Little Saigon ; diaspora ; cultural events ; place-based lived experiences ; Double Happiness ; cultural corridors ; identity 0 2974 Similarities, differences and how we see ourselves Hac talks about the ways he is similar and different from other Vietnamese Americans, how he is seen by people in the community and how he sees himself. He also talks about his parents ideas of how to maintain Vietnamese identity. Viet kieu ; Southern California ; Orange County ; Sup Dawk ; boundaries ; expectations ; HAIBAYO ; Vietnamese language 0 3866 Vietnamese communities around the world Hac talks about interesting Vietnamese diasporic communities he has visited abroad. Little Saigon ; San Jose ; Budapest ; Czech Republic ; Prague ; Paris ; Chinatown ; Eastern Europe 0 4117 Partnership and passion Hac talks about his business partner and friend, Jenny Pham, and what keeps them motivated to do community heritage work. Jennifer Pham ; Da Lat ; Chinh tri Kinh doanh ; Nguyen Van Tam ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Chinese Mutual Aid Association ; Hue ; Lac Nhan ; Axis Labs ; HAIBAYO ; Tong wars ; Chinatown ; Hip Sing ; San Francisco ; New York ; ethnic Chinese ; Mini Thuong Xa Pharmacy ; CVS ; cultural legacy ; erasure ; Chicago Transit Authority ; Hoan Huynh 0 4812 Impact of time in Vietnam, and how we build connections Hac reflects on his time spent in Vietnam and how it affected him. He speaks of meeting family members for the first time, and of how it solidified his sense of personal identity as well as his career plans. He discusses how connections are built in Vietnam versus in the U.S. Agent Orange ; south Vietnamese ; collective bonds ; community 0 5393 Asian and Black community relations Hac reflects on the relationships between the Asian and Black communities. He talks about the email he sent to his family regarding this division, and how his parents passed down a love for humanity. racism ; colorism ; Black community ; Black Lives Matter 0 5728 Next steps and finite time Hac talks about what is next for him, and also about a recent health scare from his father that made him realize their time together is limited. community work ; Chicago ; inherent trauma ; reconciliation 0 Oral history Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally.&#13 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000  00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:19.000 Okay. Today is April 25th, 2023. I’m Jenn Ho, and I’m here with Trần Qúy Hạc (Tran Quy Hac), interviewing him for the Children of Refugees Vietnamese American Oral History Project, and we are in Chicago, Illinois. Thanks for being with me today, Hac. How are you? 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Oh, yeah. I’m doing well. Thank you for this opportunity to, you know, speak and share my family’s history. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:33.000 Yeah, my pleasure. Okay, so let’s start from the beginning of your life. Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:49.000 I was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1985 at Michael Reese Hospital which is in Bronzeville. Yeah. So, I was born in Chicago. My parents came here ten years prior. So, I was―I have an older sister, born in 1984. They’ve tried to have children before but, you know, a lot of miscarriages. So, my sister and I were kind of like miracle babies, I guess, after multiple miscarriages, for my mother. But, yeah, I was born and raised a little bit in Chicago. I’ve moved to the Chicagoland. Always been connected to―especially, you know, the Vietnamese American community here in Chicago, which was where we are now in Argyle Street which is now called Asia on Argyle. But, you know, growing up we always called it just Argyle or in Vietnamese you would say “Ahgai.” So, my parents were part of the Vietnamese Association of Illinois (VAI), in the early days. My mom worked there as a secretary years, years ago like in the late ‘70s and my dad was part of the board throughout the ‘90s. So, you know, I–we were always like engaged with the Vietnamese community within Chicago since my parents came here. 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:52.000 Okay. Thank you for that–that context. 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:53.000 Yeah. 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:56.000 So, you’ve really always been immersed in the Vietnamese American community? 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:57.000 Yeah. 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:04.000 How did you feel about that as a child? Were you really into it? Or did you–did you embrace it or–or no? 00:02:04.000 --> 00:03:18.000 Yeah. I–from my memory, I would say like, yeah, I did embrace it in the sense that, you know, when you’re young, you have friends. So, there was like a lot of other kids our age. So, it’s like, you know, you–you build those friendships. It’s more about “Hey, I want to see my friend” and like be part of this, you know, this community of youth. It didn’t really click until later, you know, the idea of like being immersed within one’s diaspora and one’s culture. Because over the years growing up, you know, like you are part of it, but then you go to school. You kind of integrate into, you know, the larger American dominant society. So you do–I did like I felt like I did lose touch with my community and my culture for some period of time, like in my teen years up until college. But, yeah, as a kid, I was involved not only with the community but we were every like Tết (Tet) and like Lunar New Year like my mom and her friends organize the dance troupe of like all the youth. So, we were―every year we were like performing as kids, and like just in the youth programs and stuff with VAI and the larger Vietnamese community. So, but yeah, I think I embraced it because it was more so like connection between like other kids your age. 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:19.000 Yeah. Like it’s so— 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.000 That just happened to be, you know— 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:21.000 Yeah. 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:25.000 —we were all so embedded within Vietnamese culture and–and things like that. 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:41.000 Yeah. Would you say that your parents were involved because they–because they wanted to make sure that you held on to your sense of culture? Or was it really more for them or maybe a little bit of both? 00:03:41.000 --> 00:05:13.000 I think it’s both, because, you know, growing up I would hear it, you know, you can’t like mất gốc (mat goc, to lose your roots). You shouldn’t lose your roots. Like I would always consistently hear that from my parents, especially when they—you know, I would like prefer to speak English to them or something like that. And obviously also I believe it’s part of, you know—especially as refugees, right? They came in 1975. My dad always thought he was going to go back. Um, like oh, I—he didn’t—you never really know the future. So when he left the U.S., like for the U.S., or he left Việt Nam (Vietnam), rather — he didn’t really know where he was going — there was always like the desire of home, and returning home. So, I think for them like to have that shared kind of experience collectively with other people who have gotten through the same thing in building community, it’s, in part, I think for them, too, to, you know, maintain what this idea or this notion of home is. And obviously, you know, like when you have a family or–and–kids, you want to pass that culture down to your child. And I think for my parents, it’s—I mean, for many refugees, right? Like, within this–this time—it’s like, a lot of it’s like they’re forced to leave all they knew. So, like you’re in this strange new land and you see that with like throughout the generations with people. Like people like come and they always find their community. So, I think like for them it’s important and like to pass on to your children is–is probably the reason why. Yeah. 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:20.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you. I definitely want to talk more about you because this interview is about you. 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:21.000 Yeah. 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.000 But obviously we’re not who we are without our parents. So, let’s talk about them for a little bit. 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:25.000 Okay. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:34.000 Do your–do your parents talk a lot about their–their children–uh, their childhood and, you know, their experiences growing up? And I’m talking about like pre-war before— 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:35.000 Yeah. 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:40.000 —all of that stuff, like who they were as–as people. Like are they open to sharing that stuff? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:10:29.000 Yeah. Surprisingly, I hear a lot of people, you know, peers my age, like they don’t know anything about their parent’s family because they don’t want to share it. Either it’s too traumatic or like it’s the past to be buried. But, yeah, like luckily for me I, you know, my–both my parents shared a lot of their history, like their childhood and up until leaving Vietnam. So, like both of my parents are originally from the north. My father is from Nam Định (Nam Dinh) which is a small province like, I believe, it’s like east, southeast maybe. I’m not exactly sure geographically. But it’s not far from Hà Nội (Hanoi). And then my mom’s side of the family—her father’s from Hải Dương (Hai Duong) which is near Hải Phòng (Hai Phong), around there. And my grandmother on my mom’s side is from Hanoi. So, they were--they grew up pre-1954, you know, when there was like still French colonialism. They lived in the north. Like my father was like—his family, I believe his father died young when he was young. Both my—my dad was kind of like an orphan. So, he moved around from different relatives’ houses and stuff. And then my mom’s side of the family—they were kind of like wealthy. So that’s why in 1954 my mom’s side of the family left. They were not Christian or Catholic or anything. So their circumstances for leaving the north for the south in 1954 were drastically different. My father just left with his younger brother, and, yeah. He went south and they lived in Sài Gòn (Saigon). Up until 1975, my father was part of the military a little bit but he went to Đà Lạt (Da Lat) to tea–or to study. He also had connections to the U.S. Embassy teaching English. So, that’s how he kind of got out in ’75. At that point, he was just him because his brother had passed during the war. And then my mom’s side of the family—my grandfather was a very wealthy banker in Saigon. So, she was like what–what you would say is like probably like the one percent of here. So they were–she was very privileged. So, they got out like April 30th through his connections. And then my parents met each other actually initially on Wake Island. So, my dad, I bel—yeah, my dad went to Guam first, and then went to Wake Island which is, I believe, it’s a Pacific island under U.S. military--I think it’s a military base or something. But in the refugee camp there my father was teaching English to other refugees and my mother was his like assistant. So, they had connected there. And then, through sponsorships my father was sponsored through Trinity Christian College in Palos Heights on the southwest side. It’s a suburb southwest of the city. And then my mother’s side was sponsored by a Lutheran church to Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So, my dad--you know, they lost touch after leaving Wake Island. But they reconnected actually here on Argyle Street, in probably like ’76-’77 or something like that, I’m not sure the exact year. But the story goes that back then it was not like you see now where there’s, you know, there’s a lot of commerce and businesses. Like where Vietnamese people met was like peoples’ houses. So, there was my dad’s friend. He lived like right at–right over here at Sheridan and Argyle, right across the street from where we’re from, actually. Um, and that year my mother—it was like the winter storm of, I believe, seventy-something and her and her friends from Milwaukee were going to go down to Chinatown. But it was like too much snow. And her friend had heard, “Hey, there’s like actually like someone who sells phở (pho, noodle soup) out of their house.” That’s closer. You know, if you want to go to Chicago, but it’s still like an Asian community. So, they decided to go there. They went there, ate pho, and there was also like mahjong, you know, in the houses. So, the story goes that, you know, my mom actually had to go—her and her friends left, actually, and she needed to go to the bathroom. So, she went back up. And then like the person leaving the bathroom, I believe, was like my dad. And then they met each other again. And through that he like just wrote down his phone number. And then, you know, a back and forth a lot like from my dad drove a lot to Milwaukee and, you know, eventually they got married and then my mom moved down here. Um, so that’s where kind of, I guess, my origin story starts in Chicago. And then like, yeah. Their–their story is, you know, my dad was an auditor for the state of Illinois. They worked with the VAI like I said previously. But like in the very early ‘80s, they decided to open a restaurant. But it wasn’t actually in this area. They opened it kind of on the west side of the city, pretty far west, like close to Oak Park. 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:31.000 What was it called? 00:10:31.000 --> 00:12:15.000 It was called Mimosa Cafe. At first it was like a Red Hots joint. Like my dad was selling burgers, hot dogs, things like that. And then he decided to add like simple items that were like fried rice, egg rolls onto the menu. And a lot of people really started buying that so he decided eventually to kind of pivot to just open like a Vietnamese restaurant. So it was called Mimosa Cafe. It was like, you know, those like hot dogs’ places are tiny. So, like there was like lines out the door. But then he moved the restaurant to Oak Park off of like Harlem, near the green line. But unfortunately there was like, you know—The economy was bad. He moved completely to another area, lost business. It survived like, five or six years after that, but eventually, you know, he had to shutter the business. And then we—that’s when we moved out to the suburbs. He got a job—a teaching job—at Wheaton North High School. And then, my mom eventually got into social work at Head Start. And then I grew up out in Glendale Heights which—surprisingly, there’s a lot of Vietnamese people out there. There’s a few churches. Not far from there is like a Vietnamese Buddhist temple. So, there’s actually like a large Vietnamese community. And so, I grew up–I grew up with like in–in grade school, high school, with like a lot of Vietnamese kids around me. So, not only was I connected here to Argyle and like VAI and like that youth program of Chicago, but where we lived, like, my kindergarten classroom was like three Tran students—me, Steven, and another Tran, you know. So, it was like, (chuckles) you know, we–I grew up surrounded by that, that culture. 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:21.000 Yeah. Okay. What years was Mimosa Café open? 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:25.000 (sighs) Whooo. I should–I should know this precisely. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:26.000 You were–you were around though. You were— 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.000 Uh, they opened before I was born. 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.000 Oh, okay. 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:31.000 So, I believe it was like probably like ’80. 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:32.000 Okay. 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:36.000 And then it was like a ten-year period, like from the–from 1980 to 1990, I would say. 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.000 Okay. 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.000 Yeah. So, they even had it like a restaurant before my sister was born— 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:46.000 Okay. So, do you have memories of–of being in–in the restaurant? 00:12:46.000 --> 00:13:44.000 Yeah, I do. Um, the–the second restaurant, though. The first one I wasn’t around for that. So, I think, yeah. So, I just remember the one like on Harlem Avenue, over in Oak Park, right at the cusp of the city, just like sitting in the back, like on the milk crates and eating egg rolls and like, you know, his workers like prepping all the food. And there was this one booth that I remember specifically. It was like kind of near to the kitchen entrance, and me and my sister would like, would be those little kids, you know, when you go into a restaurant, you see those little kids coloring and stuff. We were those kids in the back. And it was interesting because like a few years ago—the building still exists. Now, it’s like actually surpri–like funny. It’s like a Red Hots, a gyros hot dog place now. That person bought the building after, you know, my dad shuttered his business. So, we went—actually, my sister and I—went there and it was like–it was weird. Like that was the first time I’d been in there since, like, 1990, I guess. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.000 How did you feel? Tell me. 00:13:46.000 --> 00:14:49.000 I felt like–I don’t–somewhat emotional, you know. Like, you know, I was going with my sister and this was like kind of our humble beginnings as children, you know and like my parents’ journey of trying to succeed in this country. And I didn’t have, like, true vivid memories because I was so young. I don’t even know if I could put it into words but I felt like–I don’t–it felt–it felt strange. Like there was a kind of out-of-body experience, like whoa, like this is like the past and the present. And like I never really thought about this place, you know. But looking at old photos and stuff, there’s like birthdays every year. We always would have it there. And like all the Vietnamese community would come for our birthdays. So, it was like looking at that and like realizing how far we’ve come since that moment. Yeah, it made it—I would say, yeah. Um, I can’t think of the words right now. 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Okay. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 Yeah. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:52.000 Sometimes there are no words. 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.000 Yeah. 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:59.000 So, um, did you and your sister go out there with the purpose of like visiting the (Tran coughs) shop and is that what you were–you set out to do that day? 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:29.000 I don’t think so. We were like thrifting. You know, like—and going to like–like shopping arou—like we stopped by Oak Park for something. I can’t remember what. But then we were like—I’m like “Hey, let’s just–do you want to go in and eat here?” So, we would–we ate but the food was not that great (chuckles). But–but it was more so like, you know, we wanted to like sit down in there and like see it. But, yeah, it wasn’t intentional. It just happened that we drove past it. Like, I’ve driven past it, like actually many times with never like I’m going to go in and see it. 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:30.000 Yeah. 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.000 Yeah. 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:36.000 Okay. Can I ask why–why did your parents decide to open a restaurant? 00:15:36.000 --> 00:17:28.000 I think it was more my father’s dream. Like he always wanted to probably be self-sufficient, and like, you know, have something of his own, to open a business. And he also like really enjoyed cooking. Like he was never like officially trained chef or anything. But like growing up in the north, um, he told me a story. Like, you know, pho actually is from Nam Dinh. The origin of pho, that dish is from his village or from that province. And like growing up, he was like - I guess he worked for like a family friend after his, you know, parents passed. Like his aunt sent him here. This guy who had a pho shop and like he learned that craft from Nam Dinh. So, he cooks, you know, like I think through that like he always like—and being alone, you know, throughout his like kind of formative years going to the south. Like he always had to cook for himself and stuff. So, I think like for him it was more—obviously, one, you want to open a business and try to be successful to probably build for your family. But there was also like this idea, I think, like he’s mentioned before where, you know, it’s–it’s like owning something of his own and like the passion for cooking. Yeah. And my mom is actually—I don’t think she ever really enjoyed the–the restaurant industry. But she like loves cooking. (siren sounds in background) So, it’s like growing up I just remember, you know, a lot of like gender roles within, you know, Vietnamese culture. It’s very patriarchal. But growing up, I would always see my dad in the kitchen with my mom, you know. And that’s like something you don’t really see in Vietnamese families. But he was like—you know, they were cooking together. So, I think like for me that - seeing that - was also like kind of was a segue into my enjoyment of food and–and like kind of food ethnography and food history and things like that. 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Mm-hmm. That’s really cool. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:30.000 Yeah. (clears his throat) 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:44.000 Something I’ve noticed as a theme in just talking to other Vietnamese people or to people of our generation is that parents always were very self-sufficient and very entrepreneurial. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.000 (sniffles) Yeah. 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:47.000 So, it sounds like that’s–that’s your dad. 00:17:47.000 --> 00:18:15.000 Yeah. Even though he like he didn’t succeed I think there’s that still that–that urge to try at least, you know. Like you–you can’t really tell the future of what’s successful or not. Like this block itself, there’s not really any small pop–mom–and shop restaurants from the early ‘90s that exist anymore, you know. So, people like, yeah, it’s that–that drive for–for entrepreneurship and to be self-sufficient, I think. 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:30.000 Yeah. Um, okay. So, let’s talk about you. Um, tell me about your family–your family and the people who raised you. I mean you’ve talked about mom and dad but were there any other family members around? 00:18:30.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. So, like (clears his throat) my father’s side of the family—he’s the only one actually that came to the U.S. So his entire family, all relatives like remained in–mostly in the north. So, I never really knew my dad’s family growing up at all until like later down the year, like years later I went to study abroad in Vietnam and like met them in the north. But like yeah. The people that raised me were, you know, like my mom, my dad, my grandmother. So, my–my mom’s dad died the year that I was born. So, I have two other cousins born like a month after me. Um, so we had—my mom is the oldest of eight. So, initially all of them lived in Milwaukee. But over the years, you know, growing up I remember like a big, close-knit family. Like I had eight aunts and uncles. There was eight of them, and then I had cousins. And those are like beyond my sister and I. Like we had like our cousins. Like those are all like our brothers and sisters. We grew up together. There’s three of them from Milwaukee. Two of them live here now. So, like—and that was like — growing up was—I just remember a lot of—it was a very busy household with a lot of different people always cooking. And like in the ‘90s my grandmother sponsored two of her younger brothers — so, my great uncles — over and they both lived in Glendale Heights near me. So, we would always be surrounded by aunts and uncles and my—I guess they would consider it like second cousins, my—but, you know, in Vietnamese it’s like just your uncle, your parent’s cousin or whatever. So, there was always people around. Um, and that like—I think like in–in many ways that— (coughs) I guess, what am I trying to say? I mean, yeah. It was like a loving environment, in the sense that there are a lot of different types of people, that grew up with you. Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000 That’s nice. Are you still close to these cousins? 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:59.000 Yeah. Um, so there is my sister and I. There is like seven of us in that–in our generation (clears throat) like between like now approaching forties I guess. I think some of them are forty already. But like we all like kind of grew up together and we’re still really close. Two of them live here. One lives in Cali and the other two live in Texas. 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:05.000 It sounds like—Are—I think I’ve met your sister one time a long time ago. You were—you guys are pretty close, aren’t you? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:06.000 Yeah. (sniffles) 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.000 That’s nice. 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:31.000 Yeah. I’m mean that we are close but we, you know— I–I feel like (clears his throat) there’s also with any siblinghood there’s challenges and, you know, dealing with like inherited traumas and things like that that create conflicts. So, yeah. But we are like despite those things, you know, we are close. Yeah. 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:40.000 That’s great. You–so you’ve known–you’ve known this area, Argyle, your whole life. 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.000 I mean, there was years where I didn’t really (clears throat) come here. 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:44.000 Okay. 00:21:44.000 --> 00:23:41.000 It was probably like high school. Like after I got older I–I wasn’t really part of those dance troupes. Like we would always come here for like Lunar New Year. Um, but as like those like teen years, like I didn’t really—you know, I was hangin’ out with my friends, doing other things. So, I like kind of wasn’t part of the community those years. It wasn’t really until like I returned. So, yeah. During my childhood, I was like really embedded with the community but then the teen years I kind of did my own thing. But I went to DePaul University. So, I moved back to Chicago for college. And through that, like I think there was like—a lot of it during that time was like somewhat of an identity crisis. Like what is—who am—like, you know, who am I? Like am I more Vietnamese or am I like more American? Like kind of, you know, those struggles that a lot of other people in our generation kind of deal with. And beyond our diaspora as well. So, you know, I was questioning like—So, I took a–a bunch of like Asian American classes. I would always like come here. I actually worked from like my freshmen year, sophomore and junior year, I worked at Christopher House which is in Uptown, like with youth. So, we did like a lot of youth development work, one-on-one stuff, like reading skills like that. So, I was like right next—and that’s like right on Leland just south of here. So, I would always, through that, like, you know, Asian American classes, my work, and I started volunteering at like VAI and CMAA (Chinese Mutual Aid Association) in the youth program and as a ESL instructor. So, like through that like I like try to reconnect with this area. Um, but yeah. I think that didn’t really even like kind of answer my questions of what my identity is. So, I decided my junior year to like study abroad in Vietnam. Um, and then my cousin from Texas, one of the ones (something begins to beep)—Oh, can I turn this off? 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:42.000 Yeah, of course. 00:23:42.000 --> 00:24:33.000 Yeah, like the idea of like identity, right? Not really confident of who you are. So, I studied abroad and tried to like—Am I more Vietnamese than I realize? Like, I mean, throughout the years like–like, I’m, you know, Vietnamese American. It’s not like black and white. Like identities are so fluid and vast that it, you know, it’s hard to pinpoint in right or wrong, or this kind of dichotomy of identities, you know. So, I was like comfortable in my own skin of like who I am. And the–it–and not defining, you know. Like the Viet–the Vietnamese American experience is so diverse, right? There’s so many different like ways of thought and how we are. So, just being comfortable. Yeah, I’m a Vietnamese American and understanding and realizing like there are many different types of Vietnamese American people and lived experiences as well. 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:59.000 Mm-hmm. Okay. I’m really happy you brought that up because like half my questions are about identity and how we define ourselves. Um, I have to say I’m surprised that growing up amongst a bunch of Vietnamese Vietnamese people and Vietnamese Americans, that you–that you are questioning your identity. That surprises me. 00:24:59.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Yeah. I think like that’s the power of media and the power of—I mean, even though like I’m surrounded by the Vietnamese American community, it wasn’t like—and my family—you know, my family, I would say, I’m there every day. But, you know, especially like the challenge and cultural gaps that you have with your parents of that–that generation. There’s challenges and there’s like—you’re going to butt heads, you know. I didn’t understand these like really kind of more traditional conservative ways of, like, thought. And I’m like, that created conflict. So, even though, you know, you do have family around and community, there’s these—if you peel back the layers like there’s always like, you know, a lot of kind of conflict that exists, whatever that structure may be of conflict. So, I think like you know like saying that, you know you, despite having that–that connection and proximity to culture, in every day like when you go to school, it’s—I mean, there are Vietnamese kids but like there’s many more people. And also like we lived in a suburb that was adjacent to like, you know, a all-white, rich suburb. So, we went to school with kids like that and then you—as a kid you hear like, you know, racist things at that time. Like all that, you know, the kids that will say “ching chong” type of stuff, you know? And also the media just influencing your thought of like your identity, and self—rather like, self-worth, you know. So, there’s like–I feel like there’s a lot of different types of influencing factors of what makes up identity and what really crafted my understanding of like what I am, you know, and like challenging that throughout my youth or feeling like I don’t know what it is, I think. 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:26.000 Were—I have two questions. What role did your parents play in helping you figure this out? And by that, I mean like directly. Like, would you ask them a lot of questions? And would they be open to like answering them? Like, is this—were you able to talk to them about this kind of identity searching stuff? 00:27:26.000 --> 00:30:01.000 No. I didn’t. There was like really no question or no communication about that.Like I think like my relationship with my parents –like we were―I don’t know if it was like–it’s really close in the sense where I emotionally share my feelings and my challenges. Because I think like that’s the divide, right? Like just ‘cuz you’re in the same room with someone and next to them doesn’t mean you’re like interacting in a very deep meaningful way. Um, so growing up I never really engaged in that level ever with my parents. It was more like “Hey, you know, you’ve got to, like—” There is a lot of challenges and expectations of success and whatever that success might look like. But, no, I never–I never sought out like seeking my parent’s advice in terms of this. And I’m sure like as I get older now, you know I think about, like, maybe I should have, ‘cuz they themselves are going through probably a similar kind of identity crisis for their children. Because like if you’re in Vietnam and you stayed in Vietnam, you raised your kids this way. But now you’re faced with this completely different culture where your kids are no longer what you expected them to be. And that in a way leads to so many different challenges, you know. But like I think over the years my parents probably adapted themselves. And the expectation of, like, I’m never going to raise a Vietnamese kid like they exist in Vietnam, as a Vietnamese American kid, you know. So, yeah, but no, I never really sought that out. I don’t really actually—sought that out—like I kind of looked in and just found external ways to like understand either through books or media. Yeah, growing up I had Asian American friends like in high school that are still my best friends today. But we never–I don’t think we ever really talked about like the identity issue, right? Like are we Asian American? We just kind of lived it together through our common interests and maybe like our common struggles with–that drew us together. I don’t know. But um, yeah. I think it was more like just seeking ways to search for my identity externally either through reading or education or through experiential learning and like living abroad or something, you know. (sniffles) 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:24.000 Okay. Thank you for that. You’ve mentioned media and external sources a few times. Were there any, like, you know fictional or real-life heroes that you kind of looked up to or felt a strong connection to? Or any like favorite books or musicians or anything that really like gave you a sense of strength and power? 00:30:24.000 --> 00:32:38.000 Yeah. I guess like real-life heroes, not really. It’s like, right, we talk about the representation of the Asian man in media. It’s like all kung-fu, even though like that’s the case, I did love Jet Li. Like his movies were bad ass, you know. So, me and my cousin would watch, you know, martial arts movies and like–like, yeah, hell yeah. Like this dude’s cool as hell, you know? But yeah, and then you see the larger dominant media and society depicting it. So, that influences like all your “I’m unworthy” type of thoughts, you know, that slowly start growing in your head. Um, music―I have like a weird history with music. Like–like I grew up just listening to like a lot of actually pre-war Vietnamese music and I still love it today. Like there’s–there’s a guy named Trịnh Công Sơn (Trinh Cong Son) who was considered the Bob Dylan of Vietnam. I think Joan Baez said that about him. And he always sang with Khánh Ly (Khanh Ly) and like that duo who was like pre-war. So, that type of music I think it’s called like nhạc vàng (nhac vang, yellow music, more commonly known as Bolero music.) (Note: Son and Ly are usually categorized as Nhạc Trịnh [Nhac Trinh]). My parents loved that so I would always listen to it. And I still love it today. But then like, yeah, my older cousins would listen to weird Euro-dance like, you know, Modern Talking. What did―it’s funny, because it’s like–there’s a documentary coming called “New Wave.” So, it was like a lot of that music that Vietnamese called New Wave but it’s like Euro-Pop, Euro-Trance, or whatever. So, I listened to a lot of that. So, even though it wasn’t Vietnamese, I think like a lot of Vietnamese people listened to that. And like even today, when you like―I hear Modern Talking like (sings) “You’re my heart. You’re my soul. Nah-nah-nah,” like on the block, it’s like all instant like “Yo!” Like that’s like, it sparks some type of, you know, realization or connection to someone else which is― yeah, I don’t know how–why my cousins listened to it, but they did. But I guess like maybe a lot of Vietnamese American in that generation did because now there’s a documentary being made about it, you know. 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.000 Yeah. I heard about that. It’s really cool. 00:32:40.000 --> 00:33:21.000 Yeah. Books, I think, more identity-wise, Catfish and Mandala (by Andrew X. Pham) was one of the first books that I really kind of―because it talked about–he biked through Vietnam, right? Like he talks about like–it was a page turner. It’s like a memoir and it really resonated with what I was going through at that time. It’s like wow! Like I want to seek—you know, that book didn’t tell you what to think. It was just sharing his experience and I wanted to―in many ways—live that experience too (siren sounds in background), to search and find what any resolution to what challenge of identity I had at the time. Yeah. So, yeah, that book I think. 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:26.000 That was a really good book. I had it for years on my bookshelf before I had the courage to read it. 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:33.000 Yeah. I should re-read it. I haven’t opened it since that one time I read it. 00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:43.000 The part that sticks out in my head is the part where he says that he was looking at some like muck on the ground or like trash or something and he just felt really ashamed of his country. 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.000 Oh, wow! 00:33:45.000 --> 00:34:20.000 And, I remember that sticking out to me because I was never proud of my identity at all. So, I’m still working on that honestly. This is your interview, not mine. (both laugh) Um, okay. I really–I really want to go to your study abroad experience. But first, I want to go back to–to this area in your childhood. So, tell me like were there any businesses or organizations on Argyle or–or Uptown–that stick out in your head and what were their names and why were they important to you? Um, and also any like memories that you can share with us. 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:32.000 Yeah. Yeah. I―so, like I said, I don’t think there’s many businesses that still exist. There are a few, like the grocery stores are still here, like Việt Hoa (Viet Hoa) is still here. 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.000 How long has― 00:34:33.000 --> 00:36:45.000 I think they’ve been here since like the early—like the ‘80s. Like mid ‘80s until now. So, it’s like forty–forty years plus. Tại Nam (Tai Nam) I think came a little later. Um, but Double Happiness and Hong Kee, so those are all like Chinese restaurants, you know? And those are the ones that kind of have been here the longest and that have sustained over the generations. But Double Happiness is―they’re also refugees from Vietnam, but they’re like Vietnamese Chinese, Teochew Chinese. So, I have like a lot of memories there like going as a kid. The menu it is the same menu from when we–I ate there as a kid. They just photocopied it, whited out the price over, you know, because of inflation. And like now it’s eleven dollars a bowl versus back then it was, like, four. But, it’s still the―it’s like a photocopy and I just remember going in there with my parents and, you know, their friends and their kids, just like having like an ice cold soy milk, eating the dried noodles and just like― And back then, from what I remember like, um, my business partner who is Jennifer Phạm (Jennifer Pham)–her–she grew up here too. And like when we talk about Argyle and our memories of Argyle in the past it’s like—it was so much―like the memory is that the area was so much more bustling. There was so―it was like crowded full of Vietnamese people whereas you see now it’s like almost desolate, you know? And that–that’s for many reasons, I think. But like, yeah. I mean like the memories of–of that was like in–in the VAI, Vietnamese Association of Illinois, used to be just north of Argyle on Broadway in this older building. They moved since then. But it was on the second floor, just like a lot of memories there. Um, like for the new year, giving speeches in Vietnamese to like the elders, just playing and running around the rooms, like with other kids. Yeah, it was just like―yeah, those are fond memories. Like you don’t have any worries, you know. And you just like had fun and like ate food. It was―yeah. I mean those memories stick out to me, I would say. 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:52.000 What–what–what would you order to eat at these restaurants, like then and now? Like what are your favorite few things? Like if you had so―like a total― 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.000 That–at that restaurant? 00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:56.000 Yeah, or anywhere else? Like you and I went to Nhà Hàng (Việt Nam) (Nha Hang Vietnam) the other day. 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000 Oh, okay. Yeah. 00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000 So, anywhere at anytime. 00:36:59.000 --> 00:38:44.000 Well, I still love that noodle place. Like I used to eat there like on a regular―and I get the same thing but it’s the same recipe too. So, basically, it’s just like dried egg noodles with like seafood, pork, garlic oil. You throw in your sauces how you want to dress it. And then there’s a bowl of soup on the side. So, that’s one of my favorite meals on Argyle. I love, currently, today, yeah like there’s–there’s like different, restaurants that specialize in different things, even though like, you know, if you walked into a restaurant, there’s like 95 things on the menu. But if you are, you know, if you live here you kind of know what’s good, what restaurant does what well. So like, yeah. Đà Nẵng Kitchen (Da Nang Kitchen), the husband is from Da Nang, like Quảng Nam (Quang Nam), which is center region. So, they do like a lot of like stuff that you don’t seen on other menus like Mì Quảng (Mi Quang), which is like kind of a turmeric rice noodle, seafood, kind of more condensed broth. That’s really good there. For triple s―if you want northern food, Pho 777, his wife is from Hanoi or that region, and she’s brought a lot of northern Vietnamese dishes that are spectacular that you often don’t see actually in restaurants in the U.S. because it’s more southern food. Um, Café Hòang (Cafe Hoang) has really great bún bò Huế (bun bo Hue). They’re from Huế (Hue), which is like that spicy, you know, beef noodle soup that’s really good. So, yeah, like there–there’s a lot of things. Like when I’m craving something, that’s―you know, I’ll know where to go. Um, and like, yeah. When we ate where we ate, Nha Hang Vietnam, they do a lot of like really good southern style food which is nice. Yeah. Then what el―yeah. (both chuckle) 00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.000 Are you here often? Are you in the area often? 00:38:46.000 --> 00:41:37.000 I am, yeah. Since I started this ambassador position―it’s a community ambassador job through the city and through the Chamber. Like I’m here like probably every work day. Like Monday through Friday for parts of the day. But, yeah. I’m always around Argyle. Which is nice, but you know like I never really thought―like literally after college, like I actually moved to Vietnam. So, I studied abroad in Vietnam the year after I studied in Budapest and Hungary. And then I came back, graduated, and then I’m like “Alright, I’m moving to Vietnam.” So, I moved with my two cousins from Texas and we lived there for like three-some years. And I never thought I was going to actually do any type of work in Chicago, let alone like this community. What I wanted to do was like international work, right? Like kind of relief work. I wanted to move back to Vietnam and do like more large-scale, non-governmental organization work. Because my uncle, one of my mom’s younger brothers, like he did a lot of relief work. And he also like moved to Vietnam and worked at Save the Children. He was the country director of Save the Children for a few years and we overlapped and actually he was able to get me an internship. So, I did like non-governmental work in Vietnam. I moved to Hội An (Hoi An), which is also in Quang Nam in central Vietnam and I worked for Lệ Lý Hayslip (Le Ly Hayslip). She is the author and there’s a movie that Oliver Stone did about her. It’s called like “What hea–Heaven and Earth” I think it’s called? So, she has an organization there and I worked for her for like a year. So, I’ve always thought like “Hey, I’m going to go back.” The only reason I came back to Chicago really was to go to grad school, to do like urban planning. But I did international planning, with the intention of like going back to Vietnam or living abroad. But it was like during that research and like during those years I worked in Uptown, and like a lot of my research pivoted to more local things and like more so like, um, research on Argyle. You know, like through the lens of urban planning it’s like cultural preservation of a community. You know, I saw that, you know, there’s a lot of gentrification happening. We’re right next to the lake. You know, property values are increased like―and I remember just coming back here and it’s just like this is–doesn’t feel like Argyle of my youth. You know, like I said earlier, like it just felt busy. People came here all the time. And it just didn’t feel that, and there was a lot of closures, a lot of, you know, different things. So, eventually, you know, like I got involved and did a lot of different things, post-graduation, for Argyle. And that’s what like really made me want to stay in this community. 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:49.000 I saw a pattern, when you were talking just now, that you wanted to go back to Vietnam, and also your dad did, too, at some point. (Tran coughs) But neither it―I’m assuming your dad never went back to live. 00:41:49.000 --> 00:44:12.000 To live, no. But he did, when I lived there, he came to visit. Um, but he never―he even, yeah, growing up like even his later years, he always said like “I want return and live there.” But it never happened, you know. I still have a desire to like, you know, go back to Vietnam and like, maybe not live forever, because I don’t think there’s like―I mean this idea of impermanence is probably the only permanent thing. Like I would like to return to Vietnam and live again. I think it’s a different―I think for Vietnamese Americans to return to Vietnam and like live there, it’s a–it’s a–it’s a different experience in understanding your identity as just a Vietnamese American. Like it’s like–it’s–it’s in touch with your culture. But that culture has also progressed, you know? Like I think like the idea of―And there’s so many different waves of like immigration, of like refugees in the ‘90s. Up until now, there’s still Vietnamese people coming here. So, this idea of the Vietnamese American experience is always changing and always fluid. But the ones that, I think that first wave of people, like held on to a–a culture of Vietnam that is, in many ways, no longer, um, present in Vietnam today. It’s been forty, fifty years. That culture evolves and changes. So, like the idea of like going there, it’s like experiencing something new but familiar, you know, and that’s, like, exciting. But also, like realizing “Hey, I’m not–this is–I’m not from here, and I’m not―” Like I think for me it’s no longer the seeking out affirmation of identity but just living and learning and realizing that I–I have many friendships with like Vietnamese people in Vietnam and like realizing like we are―we had different lived experiences. But there is that–that common sort of like Vietnamese culture that always exists that is a bond, you know. So, I feel like that like going back was more about like learning and sustaining friendships and embracing something new. 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:36.000 Thank you. Um, you mentioned a common thread. This is a question I ask myself a lot as someone who is still trying to figure out the identity piece of myself. Like what, in your mind, what are those threads that make us–that make us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American? 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:43.000 What makes us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American? 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:44.000 That’s a hard question, I know. 00:44:44.000 --> 00:48:27.000 Yeah, that’s really hard. Um, yeah. Man. Well, I know for one, right? Like regardless of like whatever Vietnamese American experience there may be, or Vietnamese experience, like this is like cliché and lame, I think. But like literally like the easiest thing to say is food, right? I mean–I’ve think that transcends the Vietnamese culture too. I think like you―the easiest way to connect and relate to someone is over a meal, right? Like it’s–it is that. Um, and that’s the thing. Like everywhere I go in the U.S. or even the world, I always go to like Little Saigon or Viet Town or whatever it is. I remember in Prague, like I sought out like the Vietnamese area. So, it’s like always like I don’t know if it’s like food, but maybe that’s just like a metaphor for something larger, like the seeking of–of home, of–of ― And that’s the weird thing. Like I’m comfortable in my own skin yet you go and you seek a diaspora of your culture as if it’s―you’re missing something, you know? But, or maybe it’s just familiarity, I don’t know. It’s always like I want like a bowl of pho or a bánh mì (banh mi, a sandwich) or even something beyond, you know, those two common dishes like everywhere you go. So, I think food is like something that really kind of connects people. But like also maybe it’s that–that thing I’m alluding to like searching, even though you may be confident of your identity, it’s― I don’t know if we’re lost, you know? Especially if people within that like the refugee diaspora. Like you could be comfortable and get to a point of like “I am Vietnamese American.” But maybe there’s always something you’re searching for, um, that’s like subconscious. I don’t know. And I think that’s―and I do see that a little bit with like the people I work with on this block, right? Even with my–my business partner. It’s like “Hey, we want to create cultural events and things.” But, you know, because like the–the fear, the reason why I stayed here was like, it’s almost the fear of, like, erasure. Right. It’s like the fear of like―I mean you see half this block. It’s like, empty. So, it’s like if once this is erased, if it is, maybe part of your identity is gone too. I don’t know. I think I’m going on a tangent, but I― Yeah. Because like I–even though like, you know, a place doesn’t officially make who you are but those like lived experiences in the space, the public realm, the physical realm, it’s strong. Like there is like ― right? It evokes memories and memories is like what like you asked me earlier, like if― I’m going to be real sad when Double Happiness closes. Because that―I don’t know if the kids will take over. Like those are like—and memories fade. So, it’s like if this–if this place is like―and I think that’s why cultural preservation and, like, efforts to kind of sustain cultural corridors is vital, because place matters and it–it’s part of your identity. And I think like yeah, wherever I go it’s like finding that slice of home, you know. Yeah. I don’t know. 00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:34.000 Yeah. I think I know what you’re talking about. Like my, um―actually this is your interview. We’ll talk― 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:37.000 Oh no. Go ahead. I do want to hear. 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000 You do? Okay. So, I was born in the Chicago suburbs. 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:41.000 Oh, okay. 00:48:41.000 --> 00:49:17.000 And so my–my parents lived in the suburbs, and my–my bà ngoại (ba ngoai) lived with them. And so, she always wanted to come here to Argyle to go grocery shopping. I have no memory of that because I was like four when we left,to go to San Diego. But when I came back, knowing that she had been here just felt like a connection to her, you know? (starts to cry) Yeah, it just felt–I’ve just felt like a connection to her, even though I had never seen her on this block or, anything like I was there with her, so― 00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:22.000 Yeah. That’s the power of place, and knowing, right? 00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:27.000 Yeah. Our identity is built on place. It really is. I mean this whole project is–is about place. 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:29.000 Yeah. 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:32.000 Vietnamese–Vietnam and America. So, yeah. I get you. 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:34.000 Thanks for sharing that. 00:49:34.000 --> 00:50:11.000 Yeah. (chuckles) I (pause) definitely have follow-up questions but I don’t know where to go with them. You mentioned that Vietnamese Americans are a monolith. I mean, not a monolith, sorry. (both chuckle) So, and we talked about like what’s a common thread, which is really hard to answer. But thank you for doing a good job with that. Um, how do you find yourself different from other Vietnamese Americans? And I don’t mean better or worse. Just different. 00:50:11.000 --> 00:52:48.000 No, I think there are a lot of differences. I think like, you know, like I’ve–I have a lot of Vietnamese American friends that lived in Vietnam with me, right? So, we–and we had that shared experience of like Việt Kiều (Viet Kieu, overseas Vietnamese, or the Vietnamese diaspora) living in Vietnam. But we were different as well. Like they grew up in larger diasporas of Vietnamese community, like SoCal or Orange County, you know. And I think like being—the difference might be—number one—like you know, language. The embracing of like what is considered the dominant idea of Vietnamese American culture. Yeah, I feel like—dang, this is hard to explain. Like the difference lies in (sighs)—See the thi–, the idea is like, “what is Vietnamese?” To me it’s like–it’s hard to even like grasp, right? Like and it’s like almost like if you start identifying things it becomes like oh this stereotypical thing. Um, but I don’t know. There’s a guy on Instagram, Sup Dawk. He always like shows like Chú Hài (Chu Hai), like those like—That’s like real Vietnamese, like karaoke, you know. Those are like, you know, it’s kind of stereotypical Vietnamese. Like I feel like, I mean, if–if you want to point to something like, I mean, yeah, you see it in Vietnam all over. And like Vietnamese American communities like nhậu (nhau, drinking and socializing), you know. In a way, those represent community in a way, right? I think like–I think the heart of it is like is collectivism of shared experience and shared identity. And where I think I differ oftentimes and that–that’s why I think, even today like working in this community like the difference it boils down to like this idea of like–of more individualistic kind of outlook on life. Even though I’m part of a community and I engage in community, but like there are certain boundaries that I draw within my own identity. And I think that’s not a very “Vietnamese” thing, I would say. I think that’s, I think, more of a western concept. Um, so I mean I don’t even know where I’m getting at, maybe like the idea of a more collective experience versus a more kind of insular approach to life and straddling those two kind of thoughts. 00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:53.000 Tell me more about having boundaries around your identity. 00:52:53.000 --> 00:54:02.000 You know, like just like simple things like I’m on the block I used to work at—Southeast Asia Center—as a case worker, or a social service case worker. So, I had a lot of Vietnamese clients, like of many generations. And like the other day I ran into one of my clients. He is an older gentleman, like former Viet–South Vietnam vet. (clears throat) And he knows I used to work for the—like just boundaries like asking like “Oh, oh, you–you make more better money now” type of like “Oh, you look like fatter now.” It’s like that ease of that generation and how I—because I may be born here and have inherited, you know, different cultural learnings, that’s a little weird to me. And like “No. I’m not going to tell you how much I make.” And like it’s like, you know, so, it’s like kind of like navigating that, those like minor hiccups or maybe conflicts on a daily–or when you interact with like different generations. 00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:03.000 Okay. 00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:41.000 The expectation of what it is to be Vietnamese or you lose your roots, you know. It’s like I think a certain generation is going to say “Oh, you mat goc,” or you—all that stuff. But like have we really? Like have we lost our roots? Maybe we just have a different identity, you know, rather than like having this one monolith mold of what it is to be Vietnamese. I think it’s—for any ident–for any culture, any race. Like there’s no one. That’s–I think that’s dangerous, right? But yeah. I don’t know if that answers the question. 00:54:41.000 --> 00:55:02.000 Yeah. It absolutely did. Thank you. How do—This is going to be another tough one. I’m sorry. How do people in the Vietnamese American community see you? 00:55:02.000 --> 00:56:10.000 I don’t know how they see me. I can–I feel like I have a perception of how they perceive me. I don’t fully know, right? I don’t think like we can fully know how they see you. I think it varies between like what are, you know, the generations and the subcultures of Vietnamese people. I think for the peop–like the younger generation here and then especially with the work like kind of like activating space and doing like creative projects I think like, not only the Vietnamese American youth or people in my generation but like, you know, other Asian Americans, look at like me and my business partner who have HAIBAYÔ (HAIBAYO) as like kind of, you know, creative—maintaining not only Vietnamese culture but like Vietnamese American culture and treating experiences that are lived, not of the past but like it’s currently going on. But, wait. The question was, how do you think people view you, right? 00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000 Mm-hmm. 00:56:11.000 --> 00:59:25.000 I really don’t know. Like I think like there’s a sense of—when I see the older generation of people—it varies. Like I think there’s some people—My perception, and maybe it’s clouded of, you know, oftentimes like self-doubt and like my own insecurities of things, anxiety, whatever. I might feel like “Oh, they’re like—maybe they think I’m not Vietnamese enough.” You know, maybe they like, you know, I’m not doing the same things they’re doing. You know, I’m not like—And even you often don’t see many like—I think in the Vietnamese diaspora of the older generation of success of a younger person is like, right, you–you’ve heard that “oh, if you’re a doctor or lawyer…like how are you going to make money?” Like I haven’t followed that path and like none of my cousins and like a lot of people—and that’s the thing too. Like a lot of Vietnamese Americans that I connect with don’t follow that path. So, I think like even within —there’s a divide between like the people that don’t follow that trajectory of like just making money and more people who follow more creative pathways to like their own career. I think I resonate more with that subculture anyway. So, like I’m surrounded by those people and a lot of them are Vietnamese American. So, like with those people like I feel like there’s just common understanding because like we— But sometimes when I’m in circles where there’s like “Hey, I’m like doctor, accountant…” like there’s not much of a connect beyond the surface level things, right? Oh like food, small talk, things like that. But I think it’s like, that’s the difference within this generation. But yeah. With an older generation of Vietnamese American, like I don’t know. Sometimes I feel like I hear compliments. Sometimes I–I hear people say like “You, you’re not even Viet—” like, you know. So, it varies. But what I—my perception it’s–it’s a whole gamut of like how people view you. And you can’t control that ultimately, you know. I can’t control if they view me that way and–and is it even worth it to–to make me lose sleep. Sometimes, you know, those who matter don’t mind and those who mind don’t matter, I guess. But, yeah, you can’t—for me, I don’t really—yeah, I don’t know. Like I used to like really care about that in terms of like—or not care, but like it would eat me up. Like yeah, like, fuck, am I Vietnamese enough for this person? But like everyone has a different opinion. It’s like a bowl of pho. What’s good pho? You know? I recently made like more northern pho and gave it to southern people. They hate it! Because it’s too salty. It’s— pho is supposed to be sweet for southerners, you know? So, it’s a challenge, yeah. Like I used to let it like really eat–eat away at me but at this point like you can only live your most authentic self, whatever that may be. Yeah. 00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:35.000 What about your parents? Did they ever try to instill some sense of what–what you should be as a person or as a Vietnamese person? 00:59:35.000 --> 01:01:38.000 Yeah. I think like number one where it was like language, I would say. Um, and that—my Vietnamese has like only gotten better because I lived in Vietnam and like I worked in community. But like—and also I made an effort to try to practice it more. But like I didn’t really—like in my teen years, I never even really spoke Vietnamese. And like at that age I never would engage with people. Like my people our age, like I would just speak English. I still speak English with my cousins, you know? Um, but yeah. There was always that kind of language aspect. Um, just like weird customs—not weird but it’s like customs that could be conflicting with like, you know, things here. I don’t know. But it—I don’t feel like—I think both my sister and I were—we pushed the envelope. Like we challenged them a lot in terms of like— surprisingly, they were old, of a older generation. Like the gap between my father and me is like 50 years and then my mom is like in her 70s. So, they’re like a little older than, you know, some other Vietnamese folks. So, I think as someone of that generation to come here, like you would imagine them being extremely traditional. And they–they in some ways they are. But I think like that relationship and of realizing too like “Hey.” I don’t know. I’ve never talked to them about this. But maybe like they’ve accepted like “Hey, this is like who my–who my kids are.” And like you can instill and try to push for certain preserv–preservation of certain cultural customs here and there. But also realizing that maybe, yeah, maybe like you can’t fully pass everything down —I think. I mean, yeah. That’s how I feel. 01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:48.000 Okay. Last question on this topic. How do you see yourself? 01:01:48.000 --> 01:03:57.000 How do I see myself? I guess in the realm of identity, of culture, if we’re talking about Vietnamese American, yeah, I–I feel like I’m one of many identities of what Vietnamese American is, and it’s always evolving. I see myself as— I don’t like to say like certain things, like about—you know, like toot my own horn but like I feel like I am becoming one of the community leaders of this area. I take like—you know, I’m honored to do that, to be one of many who are, you know, stepping up in this second generation and trying to preserve culture but also like creating new and fresh things that tie to a culture. So, like, yeah. I view myself as someone who cares about, you know, this–this specific community of Argyle and the Vietnamese community here in Chicago. Because it’s not big. It’s not, you know? And it ties back to self, of home. Like how can I sustain it so that part of me is not gone? Um, but yeah. I don’t know. Like I don’t–I don’t really think about—or I haven’t for a long time thought about—what it means as my identity of Vietnamese American. I haven’t—it’s been a while actually. I think I would say that I’m more confident in–in the cultural, whatever those cultural components that I–that I hold onto and that I value. I’m more confident in that now than I was like 20 years ago. Um, but yeah. I don’t—That’s–that’s a hard question. (starts to chuckle, and Ho joins in) 01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:03.000 That’s good that you haven’t really thought about it. In my mind, that’s —it sounds like you found peace then within yourself. 01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:16.000 Yeah. I think––yeah, I do feel that I’m at more at peace in terms of that–that realm of identity than I was before. 01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:25.000 Um, so you mentioned that you, everywhere you go, you look for Little Saigon or whatever, wherever the diaspora is. 01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:26.000 Yeah. 01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:42.000 So, we’re talking about place now. Um, what are some–what are some places, what are some cities where–where the–where you find that the community is really interesting or exceptional in some way? 01:04:42.000 --> 01:08:37.000 Yeah. Let me think. Okay. I have to think back at all those Little Saigons I’ve been to. Well, I mean the obvious is probably like foodwise and like just the level of like claiming space and calling the space home. I feel like the bigger areas where there’s more Vietnamese people, there’s just so much diversity and food experience that you can get, right? I’ve been at L.A. a few times but I always like go and visit my friends that live down there and like, it feels like in a way —and that’s why I think Little Saigons are created. It’s like Vietnam in many ways or whatever that Vietnam may be. So, it’s like a sense of ease. So, like San Jose is huge too. I’ve been there a few times. But I think like the most–the ones that stand out in my mind and that what’s most interesting actually might be probably like eastern Europe because it’s a different diaspora. And it’s a different migration pattern than the Little Saigon or, you know, Saigon whatever. Because there I don’t think they don’t call it Little Saigon. It’s more the northern folk that went to the former eastern bloc and lived there and created community there. So, it’s like a completely different experience. But there’s still like this idea–like I remember like in Budapest too when I was living there. Like I sought out Vietnamese people. And it was a completely different identity than my own, right, than my parents. They fought –these are people that I guess in a way won the war, right? They’re not the ones that fled because of like the collapse of Saigon. They went for economic opportunity or they were part of like the communist government back then or as diplomats. But they built their community there. So, I think those are interesting. Like it–it doesn’t resonate or there’s no strong tie to my own experience and my family’s experience. But there is still like this weird human connection of being Vietnamese. Even the politically—it’s so different, right? And I remember like hung out with like a bunch of like, you know, northern Vietnamese people. This was after I studied abroad in Vietnam, too. So, in a way I was more open to that, you know? But I–I think like east, like Czech Republic, like Prague, was interesting. Budapest’s Vietnamese community was interesting. But I also like find Paris really interesting, because that’s like a lot of Vietnamese people there are like—probably went there even before ’75, you know. So, it’s like this understanding of identity of are they more French or are they more—? and like the food is different, you know. So, I found that to be the historical layers of–of migration and also identity within those communities differ. But there’s always this wanting to go there and eating the food and learning about the Vietnamese community despite all of that. I mean, yeah. Those are—I’m trying to—there’s no–there’s—I was in Mexico recently but there’s no Vietnamese town. But I went to Chinatown though which is interesting. But yeah. I would really be interested in seeing more Viet towns. I mean I think mostly it’s in the U.S., you know, like the places where people went. But eastern Europe was interesting. 01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:59.000 Um, hmm. Okay. Um, who are some of the community leaders around here that people should know about. And actually, I wanted to talk about Jenny Pham and how–how did you two initially meet? 01:08:59.000 --> 01:14:02.000 Our parents are friends. So, they knew each other. So, my dad—So, there’s like a whole group of people who graduated from this program in Da Lat. It’s like a college in Da Lat, Vietnam. It’s called Chính trị, Kinh doanh (Chinh tri, Kinh doanh), so it’s like political and business major at Da Lat University. So, my dad —that group kind of met because they all are like alumni. (coughs) And her mom—sorry, excuse me—her mom was an alumni. My father was an alumni. (sniffles) And also there was another gentleman. His name is Tâm. Nguyễn Văn Tâm (Nguyen Van Tam). He is a community leader here. He actually works with me as an Ambassador Program. But he worked for many, many years at Vietnamese Association of Illinois. And now he’s at CMAA. But he’s like in his 80s. So, he’s like been a community leader consistently for the last–since he’s come here since the early 80s. But yeah. Like me and Jennifer, our parents know each other through that circle. We used to play piano together. There was a Vietnamese lady from Hue. Her name was like Cô Lạc Nhân (Co Lac Nhan). And she lived, surprisingly funny, on Mozart Avenue. And she had like 50 Vietnamese students, piano students. So, like through that too, like there was that community. So, I played piano with her and her brother. And she was like part of Viet — like just the same circle of growing up. But she’s a little older than me. So. then I hung out more with her brother at the time we were younger. (sniffles) Um, but that’s how I know her. And then we—actually we never really kept in touch. Like we would always know that we’re around. Like I ran into her like in Chicago like a few times here and there. But it wasn’t until like mid-2010s, 2015-16 or whatever where we reconnected. I was actually—I started another organization with a former friend who was also part of this community. She’s Tam’s— Chú Tam’s (Chu Tam’s) daughter. So, she was like, you know, grew up with us and so she’s younger than us a little. But her and I along with another few people actually started Axis Lab. But there was like challenges in working together. Um, just differences on vision. I think they still exist but I don’t know how functional they are. But her and I are co-founders of that. I eventually left. And then Jennifer was part of it but then she left as well. And her and I reconnected. We connected like prior to Axis Lab. Like we invited Jennifer in through that like kind of like that relationship was forged again and that friendship. And then after we both left like we connected. Hey, we wanted to like do something again on Argyle like maybe a year after. And that’s how HAIBAYO initially started. And I think you’ve been to a few—like it was really like more of like, Hey, you know, a lot of what Axis Lab did was really beautiful, right? It was like really curated, well thought out. But sometimes it’s a challenge working with–with pe—you know. Not everyone can work together. Um, but like, yeah. We started HAIBAYO and just kind of wanted to make it like a fun party. But also, that had culture, right? Like there was like food. We always had a food vendor. And we worked with the business on this block. Like at each different event it was always a different food restaurateur. (sniffles) And like I think you–like when you had Lawrence and Argyle you were at one or two of those events. You know, like so like building those networks and curating something that was within the younger or second generation Asian American identity yet also kind of honoring the past. That’s how we, yeah–that’s how we–I reconnected with her. And she–her father I think was like the first Vietnamese business owner on this block. Because this area used to be, prior to the fall of Saigon and a lot of influx of refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, this area used to be more Chinese. So, there was a–I think it was like after the Tong Wars, you know, like with the Chinese Chinatown Tongs. Like Chinatown on the south side is run by like one Tong which is now like more of an association rather than, you know, its checkered past. And then here it’s Hip Sing which has like connections to San Francisco and New York. So, they actually came here first and bought up all the land and buildings. This was like kind of a, what urban planners like to say blighted, right? A blighted area. And people just started coming here after, you know, the war, and it became more southeast Asian and more Vietnamese even though there’s still a lot of Chinese. And a lot of ethnic Chinese from Vietnam came here, as well. So, I don’t even know where I’m getting. But anyhow like I think like, yeah. I forgot where I–what direction I’m going in. 01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:07.000 Um, we were talking about Jenny’s family’s business. 01:14:07.000 --> 01:15:02.000 Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah. He was like the first Vietnamese business because it was mostly Chinese businesses, and she is still part of—And that pharmacy (Mini Thương Xá Pharmacy, Mini Thuong Xa Pharmacy) is still here. And I think, I don’t want to speak for her. But she does––one thing she tells me, and often, and she does say it and she shares with other people like her–she herself didn’t think she was going to stay here either. But she said that there was a moment in the past where her dad was thinking about retiring and selling this pharmacy, this family pharmacy, to like CVS. And that sparked something in her that brought her back here. And through that and, you know, she has her own journey and her own story which I’m not going to say for her. But that one thing like, through that, I think that allowed us to reconnect. (clears throat and sniffles) 01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:22.000 You’ve talked about this a little bit. But what do you think it is that–that keeps us doing what you were doing. And I guess when I say “us” I mean people like you and–and her. Um, is it obligation? Is it, um, you’ve mentioned fear of erasure? 01:15:22.000 --> 01:19:54.000 I think it’s more like for a lot–I’ll speak independent for me. Like I’ve said in many past interviews with folks that it’s like carrying on the cultural legacy of our parents. And to a certain degree, I still believe that but a lot of this work I think too is for one’s self and for others like us, um, of like a younger generation. Because we can’t move backward. We can only move forward. And you can never forget where you come from either. So like honoring those past histories but also thinking about the now and the challenges that exist now. And yeah. Are we going to exist? We’ll always exist as independently into the future regardless of the spaces here or not. But is that value of like that fear of erasure of–of displacement of like, you know. Like I could just go to a Vietnamese restaurant but like there’s something else about when you–you go to a corridor or a larger community that is your diaspora and you have those connections and you have like—That’s why like Chinatowns, Little Saigons are important, right? And the cultural preservation of these cultural districts is vital because of like—it is identity. It is community and–and it’s okay to have like ethnic enclaves in cities. I don’t—A lot of people say like “Oh, I don’t want to be, you know, labelled as like just living in a Chinatown.” But those are like—it–there’s a beauty in having that space and honoring and carrying on those cultural legacies and also evolving, adapting to what it is that is your identity. I think like we did get a large grant to open up a cultural events space and that’s gonna—It’s not gonna be like—It’s going to be our own experience because our visions and our experience will, you know, will define that space, you know. So, it is–it’s Vietnamese American, and we really want to push like the history of Argyle storytelling and highlighting other people. But yeah, as I think it’s important, right? Especially for this community right now. There’s so many vacancies and like, how do we mobilize now because there’s so many external forces that are going to impact this area in a negative way, right? The–there’s—for years there was this Streetscape project that took two to three years that impacted local businesses. The CTA (Chicago Transit Authority, or in this instance, specifically the “el” or elevated train) is getting fixed right now. You know, obviously like it’s good to have like infrastructure that is ADA accessible. But also a lot of small businesses are hurt. There’s been like nine closures since the pandemic and this train system, or this train construction happened during that time. So, yeah. They’re like—So now is the time of like, how do we connect with other community leaders? And collectively like start envisioning and identifying the challenges and the opportunities and things like that to sustain this cultural legacy of this area. And the good thing is like the governor of this state in 2021 passed a bill saying like certain areas, geographic areas could be culture districts. So, I don’t know what that looks like on a hyperlocal level, but that is a law in the state of Illinois. Um, but I’m very excited about the future. Even though like now is like—I think there’s so much opportunity right now. This district elected the first Vietnamese American politician. He’s a friend of ours, Hoàn Huỳnh (Hoan Huynh). So, we work like with him like being connected to like CMAA, Chinese Mutual Aid Association. They were founded by a Vietnamese Chinese man, refugee, but have evolved and like done a lot of different really cool, innovative things for this area. So, just having like—And then there’s a–the alderperson is a Filipina–queer Filipina American woman that, you know— How do we kind of convene and really think about strategically carrying on this—or preserving this—culture in this district. Um, I think it’s–it’s critical, you know? 01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:56.000 So, you plan to stick around for a while and be part of the—. 01:19:56.000 --> 01:19:59.000 Yeah. I have. I plan to. 01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:11.000 That’s great. What is the definition of cultural district? Like how did they define it when they—or–or do you know? 01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:12.000 No. I need to look up that. 01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:25.000 Okay. (both laugh). No worries. Um, okay. So, I–so you’ve been–you’ve been back–you’ve been to Vietnam many times, it sounds like. 01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:26.000 No. I’ve only been there twice, actually. 01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:28.000 Oh really! 01:20:28.000 --> 01:20:41.000 Yeah. But, um, the first time was like study abroad. Then I went before and stayed after a little just to travel. So, that was like eight months or so, six–seven months. And then I moved back for like three years. 01:20:41.000 --> 01:20:42.000 Okay. 01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:50.000 But that was like twenty-eight to twenty-eleven, 2008 to 2011. So, I actually haven’t been back to Vietnam in thirteen years, or twelve years at this point. 01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:52.000 Okay. 01:20:52.000 --> 01:20:53.000 Um, and it’s changed probably drastically. 01:20:53.000 --> 01:20:54.000 I’m sure. 01:20:54.000 --> 01:20:55.000 Yeah. 01:20:55.000 --> 01:20:58.000 Yeah. Um, how are you doing on like energy right now? 01:20:58.000 --> 01:20:59.000 Oh, I’m good. 01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:00.000 You’re good? 01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:01.000 Yeah. 01:21:01.000 --> 01:21:03.000 What time is it? What time is it? 01:21:03.000 --> 01:21:04.000 12:16. 01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:20.000 Okay. Cool. Um, so I want to–I want to ask like how— I’m sure every time you go–both times you’ve gone to Vietnam, you’ve come back changed in some way, affected in some way. 01:21:20.000 --> 01:21:21.000 Yeah, I would say so. 01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:24.000 Can you–can you talk a bit about–about that? 01:21:24.000 --> 01:22:43.000 Yeah. I think the first time I went was— The reason why I went was like, you know, it tied to like that–the idea of identity. Um, also it was beyond just identity, right? Like for me, to go to Vietnam was also to–to learn about my dad’s—like it–it was not intentional. But I–what happened when I was there is that I met his family. (sniffles) You know, I met his brother. I met his older sister, and I met his entire family that he—really I never knew about in my entire life. And like to forge those relationships—it was like odd at first because like I didn’t know them. But they were so generous and close, right? Um, or o–being open to like this level of closeness. So, I found that really, for me, like really heartwarming to have this–this family in this faraway space that I’ve never met and like forging those relationships and creating lived experiences with them. So, that was like a very personal like family thing that I was buil–was able to build. Um, but yeah. I think like — Could you repeat the question one more time? 01:22:43.000 --> 01:22:47.000 Yeah. How did your trips there affect you? 01:22:47.000 --> 01:27:31.000 Oh, okay. Um, so yeah. On a personal level—family, it affected me that way. Identity-wise, it really, really like—There was a lot of things that I realized about my identity that I wasn’t like—I was searching like, am I Vietnamese, right? And I think like that became clearer—is that you could still embrace certain cultural customs and traditions and still be whatever you are. So, I think I–it–those years in Vietnam allowed me see like hey, you know, there are certain instances that I experienced that how I am, like a little more western. Um, and that–and I’m fine with that. So, like it solidified my own identity, as being like Vietnamese American, whatever that may mean. But also I think career-wise it really—like I worked in like different realms of like non-profit and like non-governmental in Vietnam. Um, and I think that kind of really solidified like my passion for working with community and building something with others. I saw a lot of poverty. I’ve seen things that like I never thought I would see, you know? Like going into the very rural areas and seeing poverty and lack of access and lack of resource was like eye-opening. I remember like driving up to the mountains in Da Nang and we were working with a family who the father was a south Vietnamese—he fought for the south. And his two sons who are like twenty—They were older than me at the time. Like I think I was like in my twenties. But they were like approaching thirty. They were like two brothers and they had like Agent Orange. And like because of his alliances with the south Vietnamese like they get nothing from the government. So, to see that this like completely different trajectory of like what it is to be Vietnamese from this place of war. Also like, you know, it humbled me, my–like myself in terms of how lucky I am to exist where I exist today. Because like I could have been completely different. And to see that in Vietnam, especially then my second time around, that’s where I worked. Like I worked with street youth. I worked—like it was things that you, living here I never thought. I mean there’s poverty here, right? There’s so many issues that exist in this country, with like any country. But like, yeah, that was—that impacted me in terms of like wanting to follow a certain path that is, you know, not about money. Because money doesn’t ultimately matter, you know, when— And also another thing I learned too is like, you know, despite—and this—I don’t like saying this. But there is a sense of like this human connection. In Vietnamese, they say like—and that’s where it’s interesting when I go back and talk about like this idea of like more individualistic and which I think there are the certain boundaries that I draw for myself and my identity. But like a lot of it too, like what I really found beautiful about Vietnam like they say like, “sống với tình cảm (song voi tinh cam),” like to live with like, you know, tinh cam, I think that means like–like emotion or human connection or something. And I think that’s very real, and I experienced in Vietnam. You can become friends with someone that you’re just sitting outside and having a coffee. I became friends with people because of that openness. And you learn about that person, and you forge whatever relationship you want to forge with them. And I do feel like I miss that especially when I came back to the states. Like I missed that human connection, you know. I felt very alienated here. And then, you know, over time now I don’t feel that. I feel like those kind of cultural, collective community bonds that exist within the Vietnamese culture happens here, right? Like it’s—despite like how much that I don’t know how people look at me, but like interacting with them and having that sense of community is like, it–in many w–yeah, it makes you feel part of something, you know. To feel accepted and to feel, yeah, to be part of something is important. So I think like those are the takeaways that I’ve—the key ones for me in my life from my experience in Vietnam, I would say. 01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:58.000 That’s great. Yeah. I feel like when I–when I came here, the community was very open and welcoming. So, I think that you and the people here have everything to do with that, that just sharing that openness. So, I definitely see that. Are there any questions about yourself, your identity that you’re still asking? 01:27:58.000 --> 01:29:09.000 Mmm. I don’t think so. I think I’m—I don’t question it. What I realize is that, yeah, like my identity will evolve to s—you know, like, and that’s the evolution of who we are is based off of different types of experiences. Like I don’t know like where we’ll be and how I’ll feel about myself and my identity of being Vietnamese American in a year or two years from now if, you know, when we open up space. There’s more—I don’t know, like, what I’ll be then. So, I think like it’s not more about questioning but it’s more about curiosity and being open to like letting life impact you. You have to take the good and the bad, I guess, and how that will change you and who you are. Yeah, because I feel like there’s going to be really great things for this community if we work together collect— (at this point, his phone rings) oh. 01:29:09.000 --> 01:29:10.000 Is that the alarm? 01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:32.000 Yeah. But yeah. If we work together and yeah, you–we change, you know. Like once you’re pushed onto like a larger stage of this community and building community, you embrace that change and you embrace that evolved identity of yourself. I don’t know. (laughs) 01:29:32.000 --> 01:29:53.000 No, that’s great. Thank you. I have two more questions. I know we’re super low on time. So, I’ll just ask them real quick. Um, what do you—so, there’s a–there’s a very contentious, often contentious relationship between the Black community and the Asian American community. 01:29:53.000 --> 01:29:55.000 Yeah. 01:29:55.000 --> 01:29:58.000 And I wanted to get your thoughts on that. 01:29:58.000 --> 01:34:05.000 Yeah. I mean I—you know when especially—that there is, right? I remember when a lot of that—it was a few years ago—I mean that’s still—I mean these issues happen today. I believe that, you know, there is a–an entire distrust and a gap or a lack of understanding between the Black and Asian community. And I think a lot of it, from the Asian perspective, is perpetuated within—I don’t know if it’s racism. I’ve seen it in Vietnam in the sense where oftentimes like this idea and this larger kind of idea of color, colorism, influences and–and–and makes way into someone’s mind of value of the human, right? Like in Vietnam if you work in the fields, you’re darker and you’re poor. And I think a lot of that has influenced certain people and like this cultural understanding of colorism of class and human worth which is—when you assess it, I mean, it’s fucked up. I think like—and also like the struggle of the Black community here it’s—for me, as an Asian American and Vietnamese American as much as there’s been trauma and hardship from our diaspora, there’s—like to be enslaved by white people for 400+ years and to suddenly be expected to—and that have no resources and still feel the racism, like to me I think that is atr–outrageous. And I think there needs to be more understanding from—like for us, like especially if our parents and the older generation hold onto these ideas of what they view as certain, you know, negative stereotypes of Black people, it’s our responsibility, if we don’t believe that, you break those barriers and talk to our parents, um, and talk to like those–the elders. Because it’s not okay. Like I think we can’t sit here and talk about like our trauma and our struggles and hope that the larger dominant racist society accepts us without doing the same to other communities of color. And there are similar threads but it’s incomparable in terms of like what Black people have experienced in this country versus like Vietnamese people. And I don’t want to play “oppression Olympics” but that is true, right? Like Vietnamese people weren’t slave–enslaved for 400 years here. Yeah, we were forced from our land politically, but we weren’t stripped from our land and viewed as not human. So, I think like it’s important for our generation and I think a lot of younger generations are—who live here and like, you know, when you live in America you’re embraced and you’re surrounded by other cultures and you learn and you expand and you grow. I think that’s critical in terms of like this idea of like, you know, the—of justice and equity. Um, a lot of younger generations even like after like Gen Z Asian Americans are way more open-minded than previous generations. But it’s–it’s going to take a lot of collective effort. But it does start with yourself and really challenging your beliefs. A lot of—I’ve talked to like other Asian Americans who don’t—like they just inherit this racist ideology from their parents, and they view Black people this way or this or that way. It’s like, yeah, you have to—you know, you have conversations, and you try to critically analyze why they think the why they do. And sometimes they just don’t care and that’s—but it does start with conversation and challenging those really kind of toxic, deadly beliefs. 01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:09.000 You mentioned having conversations with elders. Have you been able to do that? 01:34:09.000 --> 01:35:28.000 Yeah. Actually like a few years ago, I sent an email to like, my whole family, like all the elders about like Asians and like how—and Black Lives Matter. (sniffles) And there’s some people that didn’t respond because I think they probably hold on to those—I don’t know. But that–there’s family members that—I’m lucky enough that most of my family members actually are pretty liberal even in that generation. But there’s some that are, you know, that voted for Trump and that have consistently voted not in their own interests unless it’s just about money. I don’t know. But yeah. Like I sent an email and my father like wrote a whole thing and shared stuff like about Black Lives Matter. So, like that was like really—like I think I’m lucky because my mom and my dad like—my dad was an educator, I would say. Like that’s where I think he views himself even though he has like done different things. And my mom has been like a case–like a social worker working with youth and tons of immigrant families from like all over the world. So, like they inherited a lot more love for humanity and understanding and breaking down those barriers. And I think my sister and I inherited that, you know. 01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:43.000 That’s great. That’s awesome. Um, okay. So, I want to ask what’s next for you. But also, since we’re running low on time also if there’s anything else that you want to say. 01:35:43.000 --> 01:36:52.000 Mmm, what’s next for me? I think this is a new beginning. Um, not a new beginning because I’m–I think like there’s so many new doors opening not only for me but like for me as an individual that’s part of this community, this Vietnamese American community in Chicago. I think there’s so many exciting—I mean there’s going to be a lot of work and a lot of challenges. But I think the pathways to like really –I wouldn’t say elevate but like really solidifying and making this community stronger is–is endless and boundless. So, I’m excited about that and I think that’s my role in–as one segment of the–the larger collective and that is exciting. So, and that’s I think next steps. Um, (coughs) do I want to say anything else? Mmm… 01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:57.000 It could also be, um, anything about your parents you want to share. 01:36:57.000 --> 01:36:58.000 Oh, okay. 01:36:58.000 --> 01:36:59.000 I mean anything— 01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:01.000 Oh. It could be anything. 01:37:01.000 --> 01:37:12.000 Oh, yeah, anything at all. Um, but if you wanted to like share a memory that maybe your dad told you about or something just so that it’s stated so that when you’re gone one day, it’ll be— 01:37:12.000 --> 01:38:18.000 I think like I was—this–earlier this year, I was faced with something very scary. I don’t know if I really mentioned it earlier in this interview. But there is this like emotional disconnect with my parents. Like even though I love them, there’s—it’s a challenge for me to like share how fully I feel. And like my father was actually like struck by a vehicle in January. And like the police came and said—I woke up to my mom crying. Like we thought he died. So, like I think like it’s important—it is a challenge and there’s inherited trauma of–of–of all of us, of Vietnamese American. Our parents come from war. Our parents come from things that we can’t even imagine. And there is things that—I’m not saying that inherent trauma is right, the way they raised us. They were trying to figure out their own way. So, like it was eye opening to me that—to see that my dad could have died in the short time I have left with him. It’s too—Oh man. I feel like I’m going to cry. 01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:23.000 That’s okay. 01:38:23.000 --> 01:39:22.000 It’s like (sighs) yeah, like really—as hard as it may be, like try to understand your parents and like break down those barriers before it’s too late. Because I’m lucky that he’s still alive and my mom’s still here. But I don’t want to have regrets, you know. And I understand like it’s—we all have—like I feel like there’s the way I was raised, it’s–it’s inherited that they contributed to like mental health and like end of the—like there’s something like once you’re gone, you’re gone. And if you don’t say what you need to say or reconcile what you need to reconcile, you’ll never have a chance. So, I think like I’m trying to figure that out and work on that. Because like that was–that was hard. And it’s like still like a path towards healing right now. But yeah. I want to just end at that. 01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:36.000 Okay. Thank you. Um, thank you for taking the time to sit down with me and chat with me. This–this project is–um, a big part of it is–is for a path towards healing for our generation. 01:39:36.000 --> 01:39:37.000 Yeah. 01:39:37.000 --> 01:39:41.000 Because we do have a whole lot of inherited trauma that we’ve been given. So— 01:39:41.000 --> 00:00:00.000 No, thank you for the opportunity to, you know, share and just speak. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tran, Hac. Interview April 25, 2023. Description An account of the resource Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-107 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hac Tran Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Chicago--History; Vietnam; Cultural heritage Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chicago (Ill.); Milwaukee (Wis.); Budapest (Hungary); Czech Republic; Saigon (Vietnam); Đà Nẵng (Vietnam); Đà Lạt (Vietnam); Hội An (Vietnam); Quảng Nam--Đà Nẵng (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Hac Tran Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees