1 10 182 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Louis Adamsel OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Adamsel, Louis. Interview May 28th, 2021 SC027-08 1:57:56 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm San Marcos (Calif.) ; Watts (Los Angeles, Calif.) ; Moreno Valley (Calif.) ; California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center ; California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated ; California State University San Marcos -- Students ; California State University San Marcos -- Staff ; Black experience in America ; Civil rights ; Student Success Louis Adamsel Jennifer Ho mp4 AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.mp4 1:|15(16)|34(9)|51(3)|61(10)|76(11)|87(9)|100(3)|109(9)|119(11)|132(13)|146(3)|157(4)|167(18)|178(8)|188(5)|198(5)|215(18)|226(9)|237(4)|246(12)|266(10)|276(8)|287(15)|300(11)|310(13)|321(5)|333(13)|345(13)|353(12)|361(12)|374(9)|394(4)|404(17)|417(13)|428(17)|442(3)|452(12)|465(4)|476(3)|492(4)|502(17)|515(4)|528(6)|538(8)|549(9)|560(14)|569(4)|582(4)|592(14)|602(17)|612(13)|626(13)|639(6)|649(6)|662(4)|673(7)|683(12)|698(14)|709(4)|720(13)|731(12)|747(4)|765(13)|777(3)|787(12)|800(10)|811(12)|822(9)|833(6)|842(5)|851(9)|860(17)|872(8)|883(4)|897(3)|905(11)|915(10)|930(11)|948(14)|959(14)|970(9)|985(5)|994(13)|1011(3)|1025(6)|1035(11)|1045(13)|1060(15)|1071(16)|1081(9)|1090(16)|1106(4)|1117(6)|1128(17)|1137(12)|1147(8)|1156(6)|1167(16)|1178(10)|1192(5)|1201(10)|1213(9)|1220(12)|1229(11)|1239(3)|1253(15)|1267(12)|1278(3)|1292(12)|1303(4)|1313(4)|1329(5)|1348(6)|1360(12)|1377(8)|1398(4)|1407(16)|1423(4) Undefined 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6467aaeae0fa754e1c7c8115191c77ae.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 46 Childhood and early education experience 0 140 Developing an understanding of Blackness 0 415 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence 0 636 Comparing lived experiences in Georgia, Los Angeles, and choosing Cal State San Marcos 0 1249 Adamsel's relationship with the Black Student Center 0 1597 Leaders on the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes 0 1899 Visions for the Black Student Center at its inception and its current mission 0 2132 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation 0 2362 Pushback to the creation of the Black Student Center 0 3084 Attending the The Black Student Center Grand Opening 0 3085 Attending the The Black Student Center Grand Opening and continuing levels of support after the BSC Opening 0 3873 The Black Student Center's impact on the campus community and on Adamsel personally 0 4493 Behind the scenes stories 0 5525 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements 0 6710 Adamsel's thoughts on the Black Student Center Oral History Project 0 oral history In this interview, Louis Adamsel speaks on his time as an undergraduate student at California State University San Marcos, aspects of his life as a student leader, his experience as a Black student and, later, as a staff member. Adamsel discusses his experience advocating for the opening of the Black Student Center and the purpose the BSC serves to students, including the necessity of having a variety of resources in order to retain underserved students. He also speaks on mentorships and partnerships, both within the Black community and across identities and spaces. Jennifer Ho: All right. Today is Friday, May 28th, 2021, at ten o seven a.m. I’m Jennifer Ho, archivist for Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, and today I’m interviewing Louis Adamsel for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Students Center and the CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Due to the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic, this interview is being conducted virtually. Louis, thanks for being here with me today. How are you doing? Louis Adamsel: I’m doing lovely. Great to be here. Thank you for the invite. Ho: Yeah. All right. So, let’s get right to it. Tell me about your childhood. Where were you born? Where did you grow up? Adamsel: So, where I was born and ultimately where I grew up are two different places. I was born and I spent early part of my childhood in Watts, California, Watts, Los Angeles, so beautiful place. Got early experiences of education there. Just family, very beautiful place. But from Los Angeles, Watts, Los Angeles, we ended up moving to the Inland Empire, Marino Valley. And that was more desert-type. It was hotter but it was a great place to learn, grow up. And that’s where a majority of my childhood friends are from, and I still have family there to this day. Ho: Okay. Your parents still live in Marino Valley? Adamsel: Yeah. My guardian. I was actually raised by my aunt, so— Ho: Okay. Adamsel: —yeah. My aunt, yes, she still stays out there. Ho: All right. All right. Thank you. And so, did you go through high school in Marino Valley then? Adamsel: Yeah. I went to Rancho Verde High. (chuckles) Home of the Mustangs. I graduated back then, about 2012. So, almost 10 years ago, but— Ho: Okay. Adamsel: —but it was a lovely time. Ho: All right. Great. Thank you. Tell me, how did you come to your understanding of Blackness? Adamsel: I think I came to my understanding of Blackness just due to my environment. Like I said, I was born in Watts, Los Angeles. And I know my aunt worked in the school systems out there. And so, from early on, being close to schools, it was always great. I don’t know. I always was around Black people: my cousins, sisters, everything. I think that was just normal to me, Blackness. But then I think the biggest piece about Blackness was just about, when I was younger, I used to love reading. And so, with that comes history, learning about who you are in relation to the world. And the earliest bits of history was, I think, elementary school. But I can remember—it was 102nd Street School and I think there was a ceremony rededicating the name to Florence Griffith Joiner Elementary School. And so, right then, there was the history of a Black track star, one of the greatest female athletes. And boom! And my interest just—that started it. But through reading, through writing, through understanding people, through understanding different cultures, if you want to do anything in the world in relation to other people, I think the biggest piece is understanding that relation to yourself and where you come from and, ultimately, how the world perceives you. And especially being from Los Angeles and even understanding whether it’s relationships to police, understanding relationships with low-income communities, whether or not you understand it all entirely when you’re young, you can see differences. You can understand people and places where you might not see a specific race in a certain area, but you might see them everywhere else. And then, you put the two and two together at a young age. And I think through education and through reading and through history, you can sort of understand a little bit better. But, yeah, I feel like I always knew. (chuckles) Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Through experience and learning. Adamsel: Yeah. Exactly. Ho: (several words unintelligible) Definitely. You mentioned that you did a lot of reading. Was reading something that you were interested in on your own, or did your aunt encourage you to read? Or was this all through school? Adamsel: I think reading was something that I did on my own a lot because I ultimately enjoyed it. I think it was peaceful and it fit, once you understand letters and the relationships, it was like figuring out a puzzle for me. I know my aunt, growing up in the household, reading was encouraged. Also having—I remember I would have older siblings and there would be scholastic book things, and every student reads at a specific level. And I had a sister who was three years older than me, and I would pick up, sometimes, her books from school. And I would take her readings just to read them because I would get bored if I was reading something or I finished series. But I was always in the library, always reading, and always searching for whether it was non-fiction, fiction. I loved it. And I still do. But I feel like, when I was younger, I think I used that as a way to—I like being by myself reading more than playing video games. And it shows in my skills today. (chuckles) Ho: Okay. That’s great. As a librarian, I can identify with that. (both laugh) Okay. So then, related question. What were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? You kind of touched on this already but anything to add to that? Adamsel: Well, yeah. So, I mean I think I was always taught about the Black experience through my household. I was raised by women who thought it was really important to teach you about the way you might be perceived, about the way you should act in public, treating people with respect. But the older I get, I don’t think that was by coincidence, by choice. It was because they were older black women who probably saw how black men were being treated in Los Angeles, specifically even anywhere you go. Even in the Inland Empire, being mindful of your surroundings is a sense of security. I think that was something that was always taught because one, you never know who’s watching ; but then there’s also if anything goes down, you might also be taken at a—how would you say? Like you’re not going to be given the benefit of the doubt. I think that’s what was the message that was trying to be given to me at a young age. And like I said, I didn’t really need anybody to tell me. I mean, I had family to tell me, uncles, aunts, anything. They would tell me the basics of be mindful of what’s going on in the streets, going to and from school, being in life. But then, also reading, whether it was historical books, whether it was non-fictional accounts from people and different areas. I feel through travels—my family used to send me off to different places, whether it was to visit family in Georgia or Detroit and allow me to soak in environments, and “Hey, go use public transportation, but understand how to blend and go about your daily life.” But in that Black experience, one, it was a lot of lived moments. It was a lot of learned experience, just through hands-on teaching. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: But through reading books, sometimes you can use other people’s experiences, other people’s lives and allow that to shape your understanding of those relationships, intercultural. Like I said, it’s all about how people perceive you. And then, based on their perception of how they might view the Black man in America or even Black kids in America, they’re going to treat you a certain way. And it’s through family teaching, I think I was able to realize, whether it was if I didn’t know the term “microaggression,” I could tell if somebody was a little bit more disrespectful to me or if somebody had respect no matter where you came from and, also, if I even wanted to bother with certain people just because of what I thought their perception of me might have been. Ho: Thank you. You mentioned visiting family in Georgia and other places. Can you briefly touch on your experience in L.A. versus Georgia and then also in San Marcos. I know they are three totally different locations in terms of demographics and culture. How was that like for you? Adamsel: Yeah. So, I’ll touch on that. I mean, when it comes to Watts versus—and then, I’ll even bring in like Marino Valley. So, Watts was a place where, even through history, one of the things that’s really prominent that I used to like the most when I was a kid was just even the brief history of the Watts Towers. These are towers in Watts but when you read—it’s sort of folklore but it’s a true story—but the books talk about a man being able to build the Watts Towers out of recycled materials, old mosaic artwork, everything and builds these—I forget how many towers are in there, but beautiful, beautiful structures made out of restructured material. And every time I used to go to school, I used to see these towers as a little kid. And I’m like “Man!” and try to find out the story about that. I used to—“Man, you could do anything with recycled materials. It looks beautiful. It’s structurally sound, and people respect it” and then also knowing that somebody came here to build that in a place that (clears throat) when you think about Watts, sometimes people have mixed reviews about it. It might not be labeled as one of the safest places for everybody. So, it’s one of those things that I used to like, being able to connect with people, and also seeing the amount of black and brown people in that city. I think that I used to appreciate that, and I think going to elementary, second grade out there, it was one of those things. My introduction to the school system started there. But that was also where I had some of my first Black teachers. And so, it was a lot of that there, even the afterschool programs. I feel like whether I knew it or not, I was soaking in those experiences. And when I went to the Inland Empire, I mean it really wasn’t like on a historical Black history tip in the Inland Empire. But that was also a growing city. And I think a lot of people migrated out there. It was a growing place. And I felt like that allowed me to be in an environment where it was sort of carefree. I could learn. I could sort of be— (clears throat) like my environment wasn’t going to shape me any way. I don’t think my environment, and the Inland Empire, it may not have been Black centric. But I still feel like there was opportunities for me to go any direction that I wanted to. When I’m in my studies, I still found pockets of Black mentorship or a teacher here or there. But I just feel like just the overall environment and that quality of life, it was just something simple for a young man to grow up in. You still see those different relationships. You still see it play out. You still would be taught by family. But it was a totally different environment than L.A., slightly less busy. And I think I like that internally. And when I think about Georgia, visiting family whether it was Georgia—I think one of the biggest things that I was able to do when I visited Georgia, one, is just see the difference in Black culture as a kid. I remember going to Georgia and then, in the summers, some of the friends and things that I would make in local parks or kicking it with family, you see them doing things different. You see Black kids playing baseball, whereas in California I’m like “We mainly play basketball” over there. Or just different accents. And I have family from the south. So, I feel like the accent really wasn’t a difference. But also, the historical areas, you could go down, visit MLK Museums or Black History museums and just soak up, I think, the southern culture a little bit more than you technically would on the west coast. I’m not saying the west coast doesn’t have a vibrant Black culture. But when you come from a place where, whether the narrative wants to be blatantly told or not, you’re going to have a museum that captured things that some people might want to forget. Or just in the street names, or just in the local—even like the weather. You soak in so much from the people who have been there, who have lived it for generations and generations. And I feel like that’s one of the things that I still love to this day, traveling to different areas who their past has been, ultimately, a lot of Black history. And they have to—there’s so many different ways for them to keep track of that history and that culture. And it lives on through whether it’s food, music, style. I like it all, and it’s all a blend. Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s great. Identity is really important, and knowing about your history and your people really grounds you and shapes you. And it’s really important, for sure. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: Definitely. Okay. So then, what about San Marcos? Why did you decide to come here, and then what about the culture of this area brought you here? Why did you choose San Marcos? Adamsel: Yeah. To be honest, one of my homeboys, one of my friends from high school, we used to be in band together. And I think he came here—Damion Brandtley—he was a scholar here. But he had just told me about it. He was like “Man, it’s way cooler, weather-wise.” It’s near the beach. It’s a beautiful place. I had never been. But the Inland Empire was hot. And I was like “Yeah. I wouldn’t mind going there.” And I think I had applied but when I had originally applied, I ended up going to the military first. And then I think I was in Virginia and then I had tried again to apply. And then I ended up getting in. But I didn’t come right away. So, I had never seen San Marcos. I had only heard the weather was decent because it was semi-close to the beach. You can get there by local transportation. But when I came to San Marcos, I think I appreciated the hills. I appreciated the calmness of San Marcos. I came in 2013. I feel like they built a building every single year since then, and it’s developing. It’s not the calm city. Well, it probably won’t be the calm city that I’d seen. But when I’d first seen it, it was just so calm and so peaceful. And I think I enjoyed that peace. I won’t say it was like I was looking at San Marcos and I’m like “Oh my god, the demographics of the Black population are just so amazing.” (Jennifer chuckles) You know, I’m gonna feel enveloped. But I’m not the kind of person that says, “I need my group to be the most dominant in the area to thrive.” I didn’t look at San Marcos like that. I looked at San Marcos as a place where it was a young area. And I was like “Well, if this place is growing, I can grow with it” because I can’t grow in a place where it’s like too much going on around me. I won’t probably be able to focus. I was nervous about that. And, yeah, so San Marcos, a beautiful place. I feel like the demographics were all over the place. But I still felt like it was a majority White. I know it became a Hispanic institution. So, we get some trickles of culture there. Our Native American Land Act, that’s great. But one of the things I always noticed around my time in school is just the rate, the percentages of Black Americans at Cal State San Marcos, typically like 2.5, 3%. And that stayed the same. And I never really understood that dynamic in the relationship to Black students, understanding do they know it’s here? Is it a cool place to be? But it just didn’t seem—I feel like we got—there was Blackness here, but I felt like the community, anybody that was here, typically had to band together because we were here together. But yeah, it feels like San Marcos wasn’t that place where I was just “I’m going because the Black population.” I think I went because it was a young university, and I think the university was still making a name for itself. And so, I came in at a time where I was like “Hey. I want to do that too.” So, we had similar visions. (chuckles) Ho: Okay. That’s nice. I like how you said that you and the university would grow together. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: That’s really great. Remind me what years were you at Cal State San Marcos? Adamsel: I was there from 2013, Fall 2013, to Spring 2018. Ho: Okay. Now tell me what’s your relationship to the Black Student Center? Why did you get involved? Adamsel: Yeah. My relationship is I think I got involved because of friends. Being a young Black man on Cal State San Marcos’s campus, even staying in the dorms my Freshmen year, one of the natures of my relationship to campus used to be “Let me go to class, and then let me go back to the dorms, maybe work on homework, maybe not.” But I felt like I had a lot of friends in the dorms. And that was my relationship to campus. But then, ultimately, I started knowing more and more people who were upper classmen. And I think it might have been like Kyla or Tiffaney Boyd, but different people had come into my friend group and they’d be like “Oh, you know, on Tuesdays we’re going to this Black Student Union meeting.” And I think ultimately my relationship with fellow Black students on campus started thriving. So, when it came to, I believe it was like my, it might have been my second or third year in Cal State San Marcos. And that was one of the things. I used to actually just be like a fly on the wall when it came to the matters of BSC arriving, thinking about Jamaéla (Johnson), Tiffaney. Yeah. We’d have conversations about “Oh, you know, we’re thinking about Black Student Center, and thinking about what that could mean for university Black students.” And I remember tagging along to like the BSU meetings to promote this idea of “Hey, you know, this is coming! Are we having support from all of us? Is this something that—if there’s ever going to be sign holding or different things like that.” Because I know Tiffaney and Jamaéla were very involved with student government. They were the leaders at that time. I believe Tiffaney was president at that time. And that was one of those things where you were just making sure that this is not only an idea coming from two heads but getting that buy-in from an entire community, understanding like “Hey, you know, we have community but if we could have this space, the community probably wouldn’t have to work as hard trying to organize together or even have that spot on campus to where it’s undeniably yours.” Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And so, yeah. I feel like personally I don’t necessarily know. I guess in hindsight you never really know how minor some of your actions might be. Reviewing documents differently, like it may seem so minor. And for me it does, in relationship to the work that Jamaéla and Tiffaney and a lot of other people have put in, even people not inside the Black community, allies from the Latin /X Center, different other groups and different people around campus. I feel like my work was miniscule but ultimately that Center thrived and came to be. And then, I feel like my relationship with the Center also blossomed because, as Tiffaney and Jamaéla and some of those other strong pushers of this space, they were there but then they left. And then I’m a student, ended up being involved in student government and then, ultimately, became student government president and then I get to see even more. Being a Black student government president, my relationship with Black students is probably going to be a little different in the sense that this should be a working relationship, for sure. If there’s Black students on campus, I want them to see how seamless it should be to, one, do good work for the university, but then also make sure you’re still seen in your spaces and not sort of having this gap between “Oh, that’s Louis. But we have no idea who he is.” Or he has no ideas (of) what is the regular Black student facing on campus. And I think that was one of the things that I really wanted to do, as a student, even as a student leader, is always make sure that, one, I was seen in those spaces, but then encourage the students who were in those spaces “Hey, because you’re a leader in this space, that means you could lead anywhere on campus. Don’t forget to come back and make sure you’re in multiple spaces at once.” But I was like “That’s what the university needs! They need to see Black people, whether you originated in the Center, because (it’s) a place of comfort.” I’m like “They need to see you in every facet of the university because like why not!” But that’s how I used to treat my relationship to the Black Student Center. I hope I answered that question. Ho: Yeah. For sure. Thank you. Okay. So, tell me. You mentioned Jamaéla and Tiffaney. Tell me about different leaders on the project and their contributions, including any unsung heroes that maybe we don’t know about because there are always unsung heroes. Adamsel: Yeah. I’m totally blanking on people’s names and times because it was a while ago and Tiffaney and Jamaéla might beat me up. I do remember there was a Karen Guzman. I remember she used to work closely with Tiffaney and Jamaéla in getting support of different people. Ho: Was she a student? Adamsel: Yes. She was a student, and I don’t really know how she chooses to identify herself. Like Chincanx, Latinx. But I know she was a pusher of this space as well as a pusher for the Latina Center. Um, man, other folks. I think the entire Black community might get a pat on the back for pushing this. Thinking about Akilah Wiggins, I believe she was one of the first people to tell me to go to a BSU meeting and then, ultimately, leading me to work in conjunction with Tiffaney and Jamaéla. And, yeah, anybody else who I forget, they(’re) going to probably have to come and talk to me because I’m probably forgetting a lot more names. But there were a lot of unsung heroes. And, for me, even when it comes to unsung heroes, that’s one of the things that I also think about, is as the space grew and as it came to be what it is today, I’m thinking about even all the student workers who worked in the Black Student Center when it first opened. I think about the first director, Anthony Jett. I think about where the space is now from where it was, and I’m—even people like Dr. G(eoffrey Gilmore) or—man, some of our Student Life and Leadership folks that I’m forgetting. But, again, from where it is then to where it is now, that growth, those events, the events that were in person, our Black Faculty Staff Association, I feel like every single Black group on the campus they organize in a way to where they needed to be in that space at some point. And when it comes to that leadership on this, man, there were so many leaders. But it was just something that Black students felt they needed. And then not only felt they needed but then came together to get it. I think that was really powerful. And, yeah, like I said, it was a lot of unsung heroes. But I think, ultimately, everyone’s last vision, from the time it was a spark in someone’s mind to the time they had their first-year anniversary, even coming on multiple year anniversaries to our current director now, I think everybody’s vision is really just to make that space for Black students, one, to feel recognized, to feel seen but then also this is not a soaking pool. This should be the jump-off point. You might come hear introduction to the university but you’re going to bounce off going in so many different paths. But, ultimately, your first relationship to the university, unlike me, unlike some of the unsung heroes, our first relationship to the university wasn’t a Black Student Center. It was just relationships with each other. And if you couldn’t walk past a Black student on campus without knowing their name, that was the conversation. You go “Hey, hey. You know, I haven’t seen you before. You might be a commuter. You might be—whoever you are but we need to know a name so we can at least invite you to our next outing, our next poolside, our next, community service, anything.” But, yeah, thank you for that question. Ho: Sure, yeah. If you think of peoples’ names as we’re talking, please feel free to mention them. Adamsel: Oh, yeah. Of course. I’ll make sure I’ll throw them out. Ho: Okay. Great. So, you mentioned vision and purpose for the Black Student Center. Tell me what the vision and mission and purpose were and what they are now, or as recently as—since we’re not at the university anymore. Adamsel: Man, you know, John— Ho: I mean not word for word but in your opinion. Adamsel: I’m like John might have to hurt me (Jen laughs) because I don’t know the mission, the vision today. But I think that mission—because this is going to have to come off the top of the head and this is going to be mission-based on what I felt, and vision based on what I’ve seen—I think that mission was to create an environment to where Black students felt seen. They felt a little bit protected because they were among people who shared their common experiences along with themselves. And I think it also created a space to where you can be around your peers who share those same experiences. And then, maybe, if people who were not a part of your ethnic background, they want to come in and try to be an ally, try to learn a little bit. It also creates a space for other people to come in and see you in your spaces, how you interact, the events that you put on, and hopefully learn a little bit about your community so they could be better people, better allies. I think the vision, when it comes to the space, is making sure you achieve that Black excellence in the school setting, feel supported by your peers. But then it also—the vision is bringing in that Black faculty and staff component, making sure these students are supported, making sure that if there are other allies in the faculty staff around campus, like “Hey, if you want to come find this prominent group of Black students, people who are involved, if you need to pull things, this creates a space where everybody is on campus.” And let’s say they’re looking for Black students to get involved or mentor, it allows you that area to where you can pull from. And even if you’re not solely pulling from that space as a resource of Black students, it also allows that to be a beacon on campus for Black students as they’re coming, as they’re commuting, like “Hey. I didn’t know this space existed. Boom! Let me pop in there. I don’t only have to be in like a commuter line. Or I don’t only have to be in a library study room.” And then going back to that connectivity and that nature, having that Black Student Center is that homing beacon when we’re on campus. I feel like it adds to our retention, or it should add to the retention. I’m not going to spit out the numbers and say has this done what we expected it to do? But that vision is to increase that campus presence, to increase your interaction with the campus because we all understand building a relationship with a space. Building that relationship with a space will ultimately enhance your relationship to the university. Getting more involved, typically more times than not, will allow students to keep their GPA up, their GPA requirements on things, be a little bit more focused, have more peers around, build better relationships. So, you end up leaving college better than you found it but then you also leave college with a larger network, a couple more experiences—some great experiences at that—and a little bit more understanding of who you are in relationship to the entire world. Ho: Thank you. So, these items that you mention—increasing your network, increasing retention, being a beacon for Black students—are these what the students and faculty and staff had in mind when they were pushing for the Black Student Center? Or was there anything else? Adamsel: Yeah. I think they were pushing for that, and I think some of the students would say I sometimes debate with the phrase “Safe Space.” Yeah, this is a space for you to grow. I don’t necessarily—I work crisis. I don’t necessarily think every single space is safe. I still—We got to do our due diligence. But when we look at the space, I think people wanted it to be a space where they can come see a little bit of history, learn a little bit about their peers. And, ultimately, this is the catalyst for Black students, whether it was research, tutoring. This is the hub. And I think that was the vision that Black faculty, staff, and students wanted to see because, when we came on campus, just the fact of we’re walking up Chavez stairs just like the rest of them, and we’d go all the way to the back of the school. And this is 2013. We go all the way to the back of the school still to meet in like Mark 101, Mark 103, 102. And that was our commute. And we’d see everybody at U-hour. We’re walking all the way across campus or sometimes we’d be in SBSB, you know, walk across campus. We always had to do a migration. But even when the Black—I mean, not the Black student but when the USU was built, the University Student Union was built, we see all these groups in the space. We understand what could be possible, what could be done. But we didn’t have it. And, pushing for that, it’s like okay. Well, we know what we could have. They look like they’re having a good time. They look like their events are awesome. There’s cross-functioning, cross-collaboration going on. There’s support from the university. There is support from Student Life and Leadership. There’s support from our Vice President of Student University Affairs. All these groups have it. We don’t. So, when you see that support from the university, it makes you look and say it looks like in some shape or form, it may not be in entirety that the university is supporting, but just these spaces existing on Cal State San Marco’s campus, that allowed Black students to realize like wow! This is how the university chose to support this, and this is how we are supported. And when you look at differences, differences can sometimes be blatant explanations without needing to say anything. The imagery that I see, the events that I see put on, I’m walking my day-to-day path through the university. I’m feeling the relationship that I am in with the university. But somebody else might feel their relationship is different, based on what they identify with, based on the spaces they can go into and see themselves represented, whether it’s in imagery, whether it’s in dialogue, whether it’s events. And if I get events coming up the end of January ‘til the beginning of March, then I know like oh, wow! This is how you see me. This is how you choose to view me. And this is going to be your relationship with me. Ho: Thank you. I have a list of questions here, but I went way off, just following your— (both chuckle) Adamsel: Oh. It’s all right. Ho: Okay. So, did you experience or witness any push back to the creation of the Black Student Center? Adamsel: Yeah. But I think I experienced it in a multitude of ways. I think there was push back coming from places that you never would think. Ho: Like what? Adamsel: I think there was push back from student government, on meetings when there would be topics in conversation where it’s like public, like you could see people speaking against bringing on the Black Student Center. And to be honest, I don’t think I really was in those meetings that much, invested. But when I was there, I could see it, or even reading the meeting minutes afterwards, I’m like dang! I didn’t know this person was against it or for it. When the culmination of the Center was starting, I think Cal State San Marcos might have posted something about it, one way or another. And I think there was a multitude of comments, hundreds of comments where it was like “We don’t need spaces for Black people,” dah, dah, dah, dah. It’s crazy to see people just against cultural identifiable spaces. It’s like “Why do you all need a safe space? We don’t have one.” And they don’t understand that relationship. Or “Why do you feel like you need to go into a Black Student Center? We think you’re going to just hide out in there. This doesn’t need to be a space for your hiding. If you want to be accepted, then go places where everybody is and then you’ll be accepted.” Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And it’s just funny how people’s understanding of what you mean by “safe space” means or what some people meant by having a Center, whether it talks about their identity needs, their racial identity needs. I’m just like, man. For me, I think sometimes the pushback was very weird. Or it wouldn’t be pushback, but when you look at the amount of people that felt uncomfortable just walking past our spaces or even being in the space, and you could see a person who wasn’t Black. They might meet somebody who’s Black that’s in the space, might be a friend. But then they’d be lingering at the door like “Hey. Can you come on out?” People just feel awkward when they go into a space that, overall, the majority doesn’t look like them. They’re scared to go in, and they feel awkward going in. But then, when you say, “This is how I feel when everywhere doesn’t look like me,” it’s hard for them to picture it. And I’m like, “Oh. You feel that way when you come into our space. That’s how I feel (when) I’m in your space.” But it’s funny when people can’t do a quick flip in their mind and see like ah! This is probably why you want it and need it. (chuckles) Ho: Yeah. I get what you’re saying. I know who you’re talking about. (both laugh) All right. What did Uiversity Administration communicate was their vision for the Black Student Center, if you remember? Adamsel: Mmm, I don’t know. I know when I was a senior, I did an independent study project with Dreama Moon. And I spoke about the—I forget the title of this independent reader study project—but I spoke about how the university can bring forward something like a Black Student Center and they hope that it would—I think their vision was this will fix all of our problems with the Black community, and we will make this space. And your relationship with the campus, Black students’ relationships with the university, ultimately it will be fixed. And, for me, I think in my research—that was one of the things that I noticed because I felt a way about it—I was like yeah, just because there’s a Black Student Center, that doesn’t mean that the university has fully acknowledged everything that the Black students are going through and then is working to fix (it). Because the Black Student Center is the smallest center in the university student union. But it’s just one center. It only had one director. The budget may have been whatever it was. It was probably—still, it’s a budget. It’s limited. And if the organization, the university, doesn’t change, those Black students that are in that space still don’t feel confident to go out and be leaders on campus. They still might not feel confident to go off and explore different areas. I didn’t necessarily want the Black Student Center to be a safe haven. I wanted it to be a place of exploration, research. You start here but you go anywhere you want on campus. But in order for you to feel like you can be anywhere on campus, that campus has to be inviting. That campus has to be doing more from the top. We need to see it probably in leadership. We need to see it in mentorship. We need to see it in recruitment and retention rates. And these are all things that I cared about. And so, when I was on campus, I worked in whether it was like hiring diversity, on diversity committees, or sitting in African American retention committees. I see the numbers. I see what we’re doing. But ultimately, all that just funneled my thoughts and we’re not doing enough because if we were doing enough, they would feel comfortable. They wouldn’t want to leave. They would be present. But all the people that were being present, again, they consolidated in that Center. And I don’t think it was the Center’s fault. I think it was just acknowledgment that the university thought the Center was the end all, be all. But Black students, people, we naturally need more. We want more. But it takes more than just a space to make anybody feel comfortable to say, “Okay. This university is it. I want to be, ultimately, involved.” And so, yeah, just going off that. I don’t feel that the university administration really—whatever their vision was, I don’t think they pushed it, from top to bottom. It wasn’t reflected in policies. It wasn’t reflected in hiring. It wasn’t reflected in Black faculty and staff numbers. I just didn’t see it. But that’s just me. If there’s some numbers out there that have prove me wrong, show them. (both laugh) Ho: So, are you saying that, based on what you saw, Administration was just like “Okay. Here’s your Center. That’s it. We gave you enough.” Is that, basically, the impression you got? Adamsel: Yeah. That was basically it. I think that the Center was that space to give. It was a place like “We’re going to give this to you. You have it. This should be enough. And we’re going to take a step back.” This is a smaller population. You might be 2.5-3% but this is not a population. I think that should have probably been a red flag. This is a population to cultivate. This is a population—it may be a small representation of our campus but hey, if we cultivate this group, if we make sure we do everything in our power that this group succeeds, we might not be getting monies from federal sources or resources or anything like that. But, for me, I realize taking that initiative and putting that foot forward for any student, I feel like we have pockets of Black faculty and staff overworking to make sure we felt accepted. And there were students who wanted to make sure that the next student felt accepted. But man, that would have felt good coming from the university with university backing, with programs and resources from the jump. I think about people like Floyd Lai of the Cross-Cultural Center, Andreas Favela, even Francisco Checa, EOP. All these other groups, all these other resources may have been there for underserved students and even showing Black students “Hey, you call can do mentorships. You all can have that.” And I love watching other spaces, how they worked and how other groups, even if you come from a minority represented population—looking at CAMP (College Assistance Migrant Program) students, TRIO, even international students—every population on our campus has the ability to get backing and support and budget outlined for that specific thing. And I loved—I always imagined it like rungs on a ladder. If I was a LatinX student or if I was a white student, how many rungs on the ladder—if I slipped and fell off this ladder—how many rungs would I hit on this ladder until I fell off into nothingness? Am I going to see counselors I could potentially train with? Are there student groups that I could reach out to? Are there counselors or things or events that are specifically targeted to me to where I can hit every step at Cal State San Marcos before I ultimately fall off? And therefore, I feel like Black students, especially Black male students, Black female students, man, there’s not a lot of opportunities to pick you up if you fail. If you fail your first year, your second year, and you decide to fall off the wayside and not come back, how many people or how many organizations would be there to “Oh, we’re really geared towards retention. We’re really geared to making sure you felt safe, comfortable, understood.” I didn’t see that much. And so, for me, that was always on the forefront of my head. Ho: Thank you. Okay. Can you tell me about—Actually, were you at the grand opening of the Black Student Center? Adamsel: Yeah. It was a lovely event. Ho: Okay. All right. Have you seen the same level of support for the Center over the years since it opened? Adamsel: When it opened, I did see some support. I think I saw some university administration go in there and at least try to visit the space. And I think I saw a lot of faculty members across— whether they were in the arts, history, communications professors. I feel like a lot of people chose to partner with the Black Student Center when it first opened. And I saw events out the wazoo. But I think the biggest thing when—And so we’re focusing on partnerships, right? Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: Yeah. So, I think a lot of people came, especially from the opening. Well, it was even before the opening because I feel like it was open a little bit before the grand opening. And so, I feel a lot of people across the university wanted to come and see it, if they supported it. And they even urged their students to go out and come support it. And the grand opening was a great event with performances, food. I believe the president even spoke at the grand opening. And so, seeing that representation from university administration and seeing that support, it showcased like oh, this is what it could be. And the amount of students that were able to come and just because it was a space, whether they wanted to see it or not, they were like wow! Intrigued that this is all happening. And this might be a smaller Center but the things that took place, whether it was on the grand opening day or right after and the years to come, it seemed like it was booming. I think ultimately the Center has transformed from the things that it has done now, one, because of Covid, but even before Covid, I feel like the transformation was really geared at involvement, events, and then really gearing up partnerships. And I think, especially with the hiring of—I forget her title but sort of like the overall—Gail Cole-Avent, Dr. Gail Cole-Avent, what her role in managing all the spaces and those leaders from all those spaces, being able to come together. I image the partnerships are even on another scale now because they are able to communicate calendars and everything. But it’s nice to see the events just being churned out. It’s nice to see that the students have such a greater involvement. And I think—because before, when the Center first started, I think the university presence was like “Hey. Let’s let this Center cultivate.” But now I’m starting to see more “Hey, Black Students. We’re having new policies come out about retention. We’re having new policies come out about—We’re going to go into a study about the Black student experience, especially working with that BSC, Black Student Center.” So, I see the difference and before it was “Hey. We’re going to let the Black Student Center thrive and flourish by itself.” It can go up in flames or it can fly off into the sunset. But I didn’t see more policies supporting the students on a microlevel. Are we talking about how we’re getting students in? Are we talking about how we’re keeping them here. Hey, if the BSC is doing this, are the faculty/staff doing this? Is the university doing this? The onus shouldn’t only be on the students. What about the environment that they’re in? and I think, especially with people going back to campus this Fall, in the Fall of 2021, I’m excited to see hey, are those university policies that are slowly being implemented, what are they doing to make sure that we’re retaining? And not only retaining, are we growing? Is there any possibility of getting past that 3%? Is there any possibility to make students feel comfortable on this campus? And it can be done. But it starts off with things like policies and people really reviewing. One of the things that I pushed back on, even when I was a student, as student government president, I even made that motion to say, “Hey. ASI should separate” because we have the Gender Equity Center and the LGBTQA Center, both great centers, but ASI was having them on their budget. Whereas the university budgets for Centers were different. And I just looked at it like wow. This is the Black Student Center. ASI doesn’t have the money in their budget. Cross Cultural Center is not on our budget. It’s all different. And when I look at the amount of differences, man, this is a lack of equity. And so, especially based on population, that’s all I care about. Are we going to give students in every single space the same opportunity to feel seen, feel accepted, and then also make sure that these university areas have great cross-functional relationships so people don’t feel afraid to learn and support another group, even if you’re not a part of that group? Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And I think if the university continues on that equity-based leadership, that thought process, they could get a much better space of identifying there’s an issue, even if students bring it up, even if you’re being reactive. If students bring up an issue, taking that time to listen to what the students are saying and say “Oh, they say they don’t feel supported. What can we do? They say there’s not enough resources for them. What can we do?” But, yeah, it starts with leadership. It starts with policy. And I think that’s the biggest thing. Ho: Definitely. Thank you for that. Going back a little, you mentioned some partnerships between the different centers. Do the different centers work together a lot in your experience? Adamsel: I think it could be better, at least from what I’ve seen. I do think a lot of times, when I was a student, I used to see other spaces come into the BSC, the Black Student Center, dropping off flyers and say “Hey, make sure you all come to my event,” drop off flyers and say “Come. Come. Come.” But it was never like y’all are doing something. We wholeheartedly want to support you. And there would be some opportunity for that. I don’t want to say none of these spaces I ever supported. But I did see some spaces would come into the Black Student Center to promote, and you know, “Hey. Bring your people. Yeah, we got free food. We got—” Maybe they had the budget to do free food. But they’d be like “Hey, you know, we got this. Come.” But when it was, we’re promoting, whether it was historical movie night or historical U-hour, sometimes they would be slow to come. And I think one of the things, especially from our first Director, Anthony Jett, that was one of the things that he would do, is work on those relationships. And I think, even from Anthony Jett to John Rawlins (III), those relationships as a Black Student Center Director are very important. But then it also—one of the things that I also have to acknowledge about those relationships as a Director to the university is they probably have so many different things and policies and ideas that they have to work on and manage as well as events. So, it depends on their relationships. But then I know it also probably depends on the people in those spaces, continuously building that comfort and that support network. And the people in other spaces, we all have to be in that mindset of okay, I’m going to help you get to that next step because either I’m there or I just want to help you out of the kindness of my heart. And I think people, the more that they started coming out and interacting with the Black Student Center, especially from those different identity or cultural spaces, they ultimately got more comfortable, more and more, to do it with the Black Student Center. And nowadays, you see collaboration of events starting, Boom! at the beginning of the semester. We’re going to all get out there, showcase what we all have. And then, I’m starting to see different—You know, “Let’s look at this culture through your lens.” Or “We’re going to all go to the Black Student Center, in collaboration with—” So, I see these relationships are booming. Ho. Mm-hmm. Adamsel: You know, longevity, time, people, these relationships are only going to get stronger. I think in the first couple years, first year or two, we’re going to see that mesh sort of happening and what’s our relationship to each other? How can we support each other? You’re sort of figuring that out. And I think a lot of the other spaces—I think that’s one of the things they had on the Black Student Center is they had probably been there for a little bit. So, maybe that’s one of the things that they were also able to do, sort of give that road map. “Oh, the Black Student Center can host an event like this,” or “We can collaborate with Student Life and Leadership like this.” So, I appreciated seeing that, the growing pains, the relationship building. But ultimately, I don’t think it’s anything that’s especially to a relationship building, I don’t think it’s anything that’s built overnight. And it's just a continuous effort and a continuous mindset to say this is what we want to do, and we really want to support this group of students, this area, the best way we can. And it has to come from the entire community. Ho: Thank you. You mentioned Historical U-Hour, Historical Moving On. Is that what you said? Adamsel: Historical with what? Ho: I don’t know. In terms of programming, you mentioned Historical U-Hour, and then Historical something else. And I was just wondering what those were. Adamsel: Yeah. So, U-Hour, 12-1 hour on the university. And I think it’s like Tuesdays and Thursdays. Well, it may have only been Tuesday. I think it was Tuesday and Thursday when there’s typically no class, from 12-1. So, typically groups and events would take place 12-1. And so, historically, when it came to U-Hour, some of these groups and events had already been out there, whether it’s promoting events, doing different things. And I think they took those experiences, one, it showed the Black Student Union this is how it’s done. And then, the Black Student Union, when the BSC came to be, it was like Boom! We have students who already identify how to throw events, how to work with Student Life and Leadership or ASI to get funding. And even when we got directors—Now, our directors probably have budgets and so they’re able to let us know how they can partner and make the best things for students. But those other spaces, in that relationship, they also use that historical nature of U-Hour to partner, do partnerships, even afternoon events, different things like that. So, I did like that time. And like I said, it’s just ultimately growth together and, through time and longevity, probably get that rhythm of, hey, this partnership was straight. Let’s continue on that partnership. Or what can we do to enhance anything that we’re doing? Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. So, tell me, in your experience, what has been the Black Student Center’s impact on the campus community, as well as you personally? Adamsel: I think their impact on the campus community has been amazing. It has allowed the university to have the support in a different way. (looks off the right in thought) So, wait. Can you repeat that question because I want to try to connect that? Ho: Sure. Yeah. Sure. What’s been the BSC’s impact on the campus community as well as the impact on you, personally? Adamsel: Okay. So, the campus community I think is impacted. It’s a decent impact. It’s not anything that has caused waves of change, at least when it first came. And, to this day, I think it can be a beacon of change. But the impact was it gave students a beacon, Black students particularly. It gave us an area to where it’s like, okay, orientation efforts. Can we focus on making sure that they’re coming? Communications are routed through the BSC. Can we get representation that way? Our impact with involvement, it has impacted that. It has allowed Black students to take up leadership roles in areas, whether they’re student workers, whether it is giving tours to different people about the space. It has allowed us to host a majority of different things and even allowed areas like Black Student Union to meet or hold events. It has been a catalyst for the students that were there as well as faculty and staff to understand like hey, if I wanted to come during U-Hour and sit and learn or sit and chat with current students about what I do, maybe opportunities for mentorship, I’m like wow! They already know where they can come to do that or come to get information on how to do it and how to further impact our students. So, I feel like the impact has really been on a community level. It has been broadening. It has allowed faculty, staff from all areas in university leadership, all areas to have a beacon point to not really see the entire Black population but to see, okay, if we wanted to talk to people who see current students or even get feedback, bounce ideas off, how can we best serve the needs of students today? At least it gives the university—this could probably be like the north star along with some of the Black student organizations. And when I talk about another piece, it’s organization, you know. If students have issues or they feel like they can’t go to student government or they want to talk about administrative or other things like that, the Black Student Center Director also can create that environment to where now it’s okay, you have another person in the leadership capacity through his relationships, through her relationships. I don’t want to say like his or her because they might see this on video in a couple of years. It might be a different person. (chuckles) But that director can be another person to carry their ideas forward. And, yeah, so the impact. Again, amazing for what it’s doing now. Can it be better? Yes. We all want the best for that space. But I think ultimately that impact has impacted the Black student life on campus in a decent way. And now, the impact of Black Student Center, I want it to have an impact on policy in the entire university as a whole to where hopefully we get to a point where you ask somebody how to get to the Black Student Center. Hopefully any faculty on campus can let you know where it is, or they understand about the importance of why it’s there and make some time in their role on Cal State San Marcos to visit. Now, when you get into the impact that it had on me, I’m the kind of person—I feel like I would have been who I was regardless of the space. I’m that kind of person. I feel like I would have been a great human being. I would have been a decent human being. But when it comes to the Black Student Center now, my opportunity for change started way before that because I feel like it was just being around my peers in a different way. And I think that initiation started when I got involved with the Black Student Union, even bringing Omega Psi Phi, which is a historically Black fraternity on campus. We are able to join that. And I think just around my peers, and it started with the BSU. It started with involvement with other organizations. But when the BSC came, I’m like man. It kept me grounded. It kept me—My ear was always to the needs of all students, but specifically Black students. And then I also saw myself represented. I felt like I was able to provide feedback and talk to people with similar experiences as me. I was able to get involved with mentorship areas. I think that relationship that I had, even when I became a staff at Cal State San Marcos, I was even able to have a relationship with John and some of the other students and meeting with Black male students and faculty and staff, meeting with all students, holding events, be faculty advisors for different organizations. It was lovely and I think their impact on me, it’s profound. Like I said, it just—I don’t know—it motivated me to do better for them to make sure that I could always support them because that’s what I felt I needed. And I think that’s one of the best parts about this space is, as a Black student, if you choose to get involved, you’re going to notice gaps in what you see or what you felt as a student. And ultimately, when you have a chance to get involved in any capacity, you’re going to figure out, okay, how do I make the next student not feel how I felt if I felt discontent. And when it comes to Black students in Black spaces, they might have extra challenges on how they may feel discontent, whether it’s through microaggressions, whether it’s through lack of understanding, whether it’s through lack of Black leadership, whether it’s anything. So, taking it a step further, especially with Black students, I’m like “Hey. We probably noticed the same things. You probably felt the same way I felt when you first got here. You probably feel like there is not enough black representation at this space. But what can I do to bridge that gap? What can I do to make sure that if I could take a little bit of that away, will I get you to stay another semester? Let’s get you into something that you actually like to do. And if not, how about I point you into the direction of the doctor Muhammads, the doctor Geoffrey Gilmores, the professor Rawlins, the Black Student Center Director. What can we do to make sure somewhere along the way,” —even LaPorcha, over at Student Life when she was here—“what can we do to tap you into someone that can help you? And I think about the people like Gezai Berhane up in Student Life and Leadership or Marilyn McWilliams, Ariel Stevenson. And that was also an impact point for them, too. They are working in Office of Diversity or Student Life and Leadership and Black people as well, the BFSA (Black Faculty Staff Association), all those folks are going right there and getting people involved where they are because it’s like they know you get involved, you start coming, you start insisting, you’re going to have a job to do on the campus. You’re going to associate this campus with a little bit more than just go to class, go home, go to class, go to the BSC, go home. You’re getting some skin in the game. So, I think that’s what everybody started doing and ultimately that’s what—I didn’t need the BSC to do it, but I think the students in the BSC ultimately gave me way more skin in the game than I wanted. But it was necessary, and I loved them for it. Ho: That’s lovely, thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Two more questions, and they can be as short or as long as you want but are there any, I don’t know, behind the scenes stories you want to share? Or anything else you want to say about the Black Student Center or your time at Cal State San Marcos so that one hundred years from now, when you and I are gone, the stories are going to still exist. Anything else? Adamsel: I felt I got some fabulous stories about my time at San Marcos, but I don’t know if I care to go into all of them. I think I did sort of tell one about—I spoke about being a student government leader and, lightly, I’d spoke about addressing the fact that ASI was housing two spaces. And we didn’t house the BSC, the Black Student Center. The Latina Center was not sponsored by us. The Cross-Cultural Center wasn’t sponsored by us. But we sponsored the LGBTQA and Gender Equity Center. And, for me, I think it’s so weird being in the position of leadership and seeing—And it may not even feel like inequity to people. But people can live life and you can be doing something, and you can look at budgeting and everything like that and you can be like “Wow, I’m housing these two spaces.” And then I look at Black Student Center and it’s not equity. They’re not getting the same—They’re not even probably getting the same percentage. Or look at the Cross-Cultural Center. See what people are able to do in the scope of a university and see what the university values. And the university can say they value something, they value Black students. But we don’t all have the same sort of carrot, sort of the same opportunity to have the quality of events, everything. And I think that was one of the things that—It was weird because when I’d spoke about cutting ASI off away from those two spaces, (sighs) man, the directors, the people, the students in those spaces. That was like a funny time for me because I’m a leader. And I spoke to my Board about it, and I was like “Hey man, they’ve got to probably come off this budget.” One, students were not happy. There was a small pocket of students and I don’t want to take anything away from my friends and colleagues in Gender Equity Center and LGBTQA because I don’t think that’s something that a student should protest. But students were right because ASI student fees, they come out of everybody. And I think some of the students were upset that my student fees are coming out of something and paying and sponsoring something I don’t believe in. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And as a student, I was like “Man. These people are talking crazy! But they’re right.” Because if I believe in—You could believe in any—I could believe in McDonald’s. If I go choose to spend my money at McDonald’s, that’s great. But I shouldn’t be able to take your money, if you don’t believe in McDonald’s, and spend it at McDonald’s. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: But as students, I’m like how do you combat this? And then you don’t have to combat it. I think the university should create a space to where they’re like ‘Here, we believe in our Native American brothers and sisters whose land this is. Here, we believe in Chicanx, Latinx students. We believe and support Black students. We believe and support all gender identities.’” I’m like “That’s the university. That’s what the university should say.” And if people step into the university, they should understand this is a place where we value all of that. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: Now, if their monies don’t—Their monies are probably going to go to it because they pay tuition. You’re going to pay tuition, that’s cool. But it shouldn’t be in a place where they can attack it. And student government was a place that policies could change, where they can attack it. I’m like I’m president today, but if a president 10 years from now chose to dissolve these places—I mean, it’ll probably be hard to do but under student government these places are under attack. And unless you have all the spaces in that area under attack, then you can’t do it. Unless you have all those spaces getting the same budget, you shouldn’t be able to do it. But the one thing that stuck with me was the amount of students talking to me, as a Black man on campus, loved by some, hated by some. But they came to attack me, to tell me I didn’t care about those spaces. I remember that. They came to tell me I didn’t know the definition. You know, I’m a Black man, senior on campus, Communication major. I love it all. Educated. And they came to tell me “You don’t know the definition of intersectionality. You don’t understand us.” And all I’m trying to do is make sure when I go see Black students in their space that they’ve got the same resources. I’m looking at ASI. We can push out hundreds of events for our different centers that we hold. But for other areas we don’t print. We don’t host events for them. We don’t do that. And I wanted to mentally take ASI away from serving some and make sure we push the university. I think, when I used to have meetings with President (Karen) Haynes, I spoke to her and I was like—I was doing my own research, my own due diligence, going through old meeting minutes to figure out why do we keep these spaces? And Black Student Center came up, Latina Center came up. What made the university take those spaces? And through research, through communication with Dr. Checa, Lorena Checa, and talking to ASI—I was even looking at the inaugural addresses that President Haynes had. And I think sometime along the line, I think it was like 2104 or something like that, she was like “We value the LGBTQA Gender Equity Center.” I took that and ran with it. (chuckles) And I was in a meeting with her, and I was like “People are attacking these ASI spaces. What can we do to make sure these spaces, as well as the Black Student Center, Cross-Cultural Center, Latina Center, I want to make sure that these spaces all have that umbrella.” Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And then, a couple of months later, I think I was on a hiring committee for Dr. Gayle Cole-Avent. (laughs) It was lovely to see her being there in that space, all under the same umbrella like I envisioned, and then ASI being a new catalyst where you see the food pantry vision, the student at events side with CAB (Campus Activities Board), the Board representing student needs. You can’t look at ASI now and try to attack any piece because every single piece services everyone. And not only that, ASI is now that space to where they can connect to every single identity space, cultural space, and again, allow each one to grow in their own right. And I’m so proud of that but I think coming into a space where you’re a Black man at Cal State San Marcos and people are attacking you for wanting everything to be equal, and to let you know even though people necessarily route for you, when something is—if they deem something is attacking them, instead of understanding, sometimes, first they’ll be uncomfortable and then they’ll attack. And then, you just hope years down the line as time goes on, you’re like “Okay. I hope that you can see what my vision was, and your relationship in that, and you lost nothing by promoting me.” And sometimes, I think people think like “If we try to make everything—I’m going to lose something, or my salary might go down or my events or who’s going to do this?” No. You don’t lose nothing by making sure that everyone has a piece of the whole. And yeah, so that was a fun story. Ho: Yeah. Adamsel: I don’t know if all of that is in meeting minutes somewhere. But I laugh thinking about the past. (chuckles) Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that when the Gender Equity Center and the LGBT Center were under ASI, you wanted to move them over to the university but there was push back for you moving those two centers to the university? Adamsel: Yeah. And my Board—I spoke to my executive Board, and I was like “Got a crazy idea.” And when Louis has got crazy ideas, I’m the President. My team, bless them, they supported me. I explained it. I spoke about equity. I spoke about what the vision was, and I hoped they got it. And so, we took that to the main Board of Directors, and I said, “This is what I want to do.” Now, when those Centers and those leaders and some of those students got wind of it, then there was an opportunity for them to come and tell me to my face about their feelings, their emotions, how what I was doing was wrong, how much they hated that thought that we could just push them out. I think they thought ASI is kicking you to the curb because there is some—I don’t know if they thought ASI—They thought Louis was— (laughs) Ho: It was more personal. Adamsel: —and to see ASI, oh—even though we had a great relationship before then, instantly it became why can’t we be a part of ASI anymore? Even though our missions are the same—I mean, are not the same. Our visions are different. What we’re servicing on a day-to-day basis is different. It just became a different relationship instantly the moment I brought that to the forefront. And like I said, I think it’s because the mindset relationship to I’m going to lose something if you do X, Y, or Z. And now, upon explaining it, some of those students in those spaces came to me, “Louis, love you. When I first heard about it, I was not cool with it. But when you explained it, it made sense.” And then some were like “I ain’t talking to you.” (laughs) And that’s understood. And the leadership, pro-staff, students, no matter how they felt, I knew how I felt about equity. I knew how I felt as a Black student. I knew how I felt when you walk into events and you see what people are able to do, the magnitude, the budget, the promotion, and you’re like “Wow, that space can’t do that.” And there are still students to this day that don’t have spaces. But I’m like, “Man. In the future, Cal State San Marcos is going to grow and grow and continue to make spaces for people and identities. If we choose to make spaces, can we ultimately decide that this will be under that umbrella? And student government can be a little bit more of an assisting tool as a jump-off point, as a financial resource for all students.” But I just didn’t want it to be anything that people combatted. And I was really surprised to see pushback. But it happens. Ho: Yeah. For sure. And when you’re in a position like you were in, you’re always going to have to deal with it, I suppose. Adamsel: Yeah. And I think I knew that. But I think pushback is weird coming from people who also very well are attacked. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: People are marginalized. People are—They may face similar struggles or very different struggles than me. But when I get to a point of leadership, I want people—If I’m acknowledging the issues that you may have in society or in life or in navigating the university, I want you to be able to sort of have the same selfless nature and acknowledge how things might not be equal to anyone. And when we can do that, then it’s like okay, we can always have a conversation with anyone because then you’re able to put yourself metaphorically in somebody else’s shoes. And I think that’s the biggest thing. And I think, as a leader, that’s one of the things that allowed me to get along with just about anyone and everyone because I’m able to talk to you and be like “Okay. Have you considered this? Or is there anything about you and your needs that I need to consider? And through conversation and communication, we get to the bottom of that.” But there are sometimes there’s people that don’t want to talk. And they don’t want to have to develop and change their views, even for a little bit, because that means I have to give something up. And if you think you have to give something up just for somebody else to be comfortable, to feel seen, to have that same equity that you do, then I’m like you don’t really want change. You just want to be comfortable. You want to be there by yourself on an island of comfort. Yeah. Exactly. And I think you can expect it from certain people, certain groups. Like if somebody is blatantly, overtly racist, you can expect it from that person. But when it comes from a person, you’re like “Oh, you can be a person of color. You can be a marginalized community. You can be—” You know, even in my community. It’s like you expect yourself to have the same views and values. You may not. And that’s okay. But you just push through it. And you learn and see okay, what can I do to bypass that pushback? And try to—I think that was one thing special, as a Black male student leader. I used to have to be calm, reserved. And I used to have to think strategically, to the point, because I know how I can be perceived on a day-to-day basis. And I know in certain spaces, you’re not going to come talk to me. And in certain places, I would be disrespected. But I’m just like “Wow. It’s crazy.” Because if I lose my cool, I could be taken off into a totally different direction. (talks as if mimicking students) “Oh, he doesn’t care about us. What a mean person!” So, I understood how—even going back, I understood my relationship to people and my relationship to the university. And it’s a crazy thing to acknowledge, but that was one of the things that, being a student there, being student government president, working in leadership, catering to students, and even being a professional staff, I always had to be mindful of who I was in my relationship to people because I knew, especially based on who I am, I could easily be misconstrued. Ho: Thank you. Okay. Are there any questions that I should have asked but didn’t? Adamsel: Hhmmm. (laughs) Nah. I mean I don’t’ know. I have no idea. (Jenn laughs) Well, actually, you didn’t talk about the social justice activism. Ho: Yes. I did not ask that question. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: Would you like to go into that? How has Black social justice and activism, such as the Civil Rights Movement, Feminism, the Natural Hair Movement, and Black Lives Matter affected you? Thank you for calling it out. Adamsel: I think those movements affected me in different ways all over. When I think about the Civil Rights Movement and different things like that, I correlate the Civil Rights Movement going back to—think about Martin Luther King but even thinking about Martin Luther King and communities like Black communities in that day, pushing for equality, equity, and civil rights. I think back to education. I think of Carter G. Woodson, Mis-education of the Negro. I think about people pushing for Black people to be educated. And so, when I look at the Black populations on campus, I think back to, man, equity. What are we doing to change that generation from the generation before us? What are we doing to push more Black professionals into the workforce? Hopefully with as little overhead as possible, and getting them into the career fields, one, that they love but also making sure that they have the network not only to do what they love and then succeed and excel at it. When it came to the Natural Hair Movement, I’m in that all day, with the little bit that I have. But I think that was something where when I’d seen the Natural Hair Movement, I saw that take place on campus to where men and women in our spaces, you know, “Let’s create these events that our natural hair shows” and getting more Black businesses into our university and making sure when Black students are at campus at Cal State San Marcos, they know the local barbers, the local hair stylists that can do what they need to do, whether it’s protective styles, wear your natural hair. I like that because it builds a sense of community within our group but then it also builds a sense of collaboration in our area, increasing that network. When I think about feminism, I think back to Professor Michelle Holling. I think about when I took a feminist rhetorical theory course from her. She’s one of the greatest professors ever. But she’s tough. She going to give you the grade that you deserve. (laughs) And a great professor. But then, I think learning about feminism and learning about the multi-layered areas in feminism and how ideas about feminism—I just didn’t. I looked at my relationship to who I was based on what feminism was talking about and really, I’m like, man. I don’t see myself in this space because a lot of what you’re preaching, some of the feminist ideals from the beginning, it has racism in it. Black women, it’s like we could promote March for Women’s Rights but I’m like, yeah. If you tell me white women got to vote—what was it? Like 54 years before Black women got the vote—there’s inequity there. And if you don’t—I forget—Elizabeth Cady Stanton and everybody on those beginnings, if you’re preaching and you’re sponsoring the beginnings of feminism and there’s racism, I can’t be a part of it. But when I got to learn more about different women in the Black rhetorical feminism and seeing pockets of where Black women have to face racism and sexism in society, I feel like it was very intercommunity focused. And I felt like I chose to look at it as something like—I don’t want to disregard any woman if they’re feeling oppressed or if they have real life things that they’re dealing with, whether it’s sexual assault, abuse, even inequities in pay. These are all bad things. But I think I love to bring it back to focus on where’s my relationship in it and how can I look at it to where I’m the most involved. And I think that brought it back to it looks at family. It looks at the women in your immediate circle. It can look at your relationship with women all over. But, instead of trying to put a mind frame on “Do you love it all?” No. (chuckles) When it comes to feminism, I don’t like all the history. And there are so many different types. I did enjoy researching all about the different variations of feminism. Man, when you dive into it, some are radicals. Some are not. Some are not inclusive. Some are really inclusive. So, I really like that, breaking those things down. And I think it really starts with self. It really starts with how you’re raised, and really looking at how can you impact the community and the area and the women that you’re ultimately in communication with every day? And if you start to see signs of “Hey, somebody’s disrespectful. Somebody did something, the wrong thing.” Or “How do I understand Title IX regulations?” If somebody comes to me and “This is what happened to me!” or “Somebody took advantage of me,” did I do my due diligence to understand, on this campus, do I know how to offer assistance? Do I know how to report, if I’m a mandated reporter? What can I do to make sure, ultimately, that any woman that’s around me, that I come in contact with even if I don’t know her for about an hour or something, if they come to me with needs or issues, even outside the lens of I could take from feminism, but just being a great person, or being a good person, and making sure you’re assisting, or you can. And I think—And stepping outside the box and saying “I’m a guy. I don’t do it. I’m a Black guy. That never happened with me with you.” Or “I don’t think that could happen because I didn’t see it like that.” Being able to take a step back and like “Man. I never thought of it like that.” Or “I didn’t know that that could be misconstrued.” Or “I didn’t know that was a thing.” Can I educate myself? Can I learn how to help? Can I be a better me for the women in my life or my friend, my colleagues? I think I try every day. I’m not going to come on here and say, “Louis was a feminist.” But I’m going to come on here and say through research, through history, through learning from great professors like Professor Holling, learning from classmates and women in my life, ultimately, that’s one of the things that I feel like that affected me to make sure like “Man. I need to know about how it’s affecting people, near and dear to me.” And even if they’re not near and dear to me, how can my relationship still be on a level playing field? And the last topic was Black Lives Matter. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: How has that affected me? And, for me, man. I think Black Lives Matter has affected me in a multitude of ways. And it has been funny, because I don’t really talk about Black Lives Matter. But one of the things I think about Black Lives Matter is like uh, it’s a basic statement. And it’s basic to me because I’m Black. I know I matter. You couldn’t tell me anything otherwise. It’s just common sense to me. And I see people shouting it. And I’m like “Oh, that’s great! Black lives do matter, yeah. I fuck with that.” I mean—my language— (seems embarrassed) I believe in that. (both laugh) But I think one of the things that it really affects me differently when I look at an organization like Black Lives Matter and I don’t know if I like all the tactics that I see from it. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And I say that because I’m not a fan of Black male death. And, you know, I’m a Black male in America. But when I see death, I almost wonder—You know, I think back to throughout history we have big signs of death. You have Emmett Till. You think about police brutality with Rodney King. I’m from Watts, so I think about that. I think back to even growing up in places where you’re like, man, a Black man could have been murdered or shot. Or you see it on the news, police brutality, this, that, and the third. And it’s, for me, I’m not taking away any good that they might be able to do. But, for me, one of the things that sucks is just seeing Black male death. And you can see it in recent actions like George Floyd. And there’s so many names, even to this day. It has probably been a lot of Black male and I don’t even want to negate Black female death, Black trans men and women death. But I’m just like man. So, imagine you’re living in a society where every time a Black male, female, any identity is killed, they get a segment on TV. You probably get to see the death, their struggle. There’s a lot of reposting, re-Tweets. Before, it used to be—Like I think something that happened, because I think there was something—I think it was in Missouri or, I forget. But it was a death of a Black man, but I think it was on the—something bad had happened with something else. But I think I even was at school at Cal State San Marcos, and I could see the university didn’t want to talk about that. But they chose to talk about another topic. So, sometimes you see businesses. But now, it’s the hot thing to do. Businesses will talk about the black death or say “We stand with you.” But I wonder, when it comes down to it, how much do you really stand with that group if it’s not representative of whether it’s in your hiring, whether it’s in your policies, whether anything. But I think it has become easier for people to say it without somebody else looking at them. And when I look at organizations like Black Lives Matter, I’m not too invested in them because I live—this is my daily life. This is what we live through. We live through relationships. We live through how people perceive us. We make our own understanding of the world. But I’m, personally, not a fan of Black death and the highlighting of Black death in any facet. And I don’t really know how, when it comes to all of that, you’ve got to think. A lot of this stuff happened when I was in school. But after I graduated, I also worked at Cal State San Marcos for the Emergency Management Department. And my department was actually conveniently located in the Police Department. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And that also was like another thing because it’s like you get to see the differences. I get to see officers, and I like officers in that capacity. But then, I get to also see officers and I’m like I don’t really know, don’t really have a relationship with you. I’m not saying I had a relationship with every single officer at Cal State, but I can also say that I’ve never had a relationship with every single officer in the world. But based on what’s going on in the United States, I could see like “Wow. It’s tragic out here.” So, for me, I think, yeah, just going back to it. Black Lives Matter is not something that, personally, I’m like running to the streets to protest for. I don’t. Because until some of the—I don’t know. I think it has to be a different way to protest for what you need without promoting that death factor. Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that because of Black Lives Matter, we’re witnessing so much death of Black men without seeing an increase in equity in other areas? Adamsel: Yeah. And I don’t even want to put that on Black Lives Matter. Ho: Okay. Adamsel: But this is an organization that they will do their work. But, ultimately, out of their work you see a lot of organizations making statements, pushing out this narrative because they think without making a statement back to Black people, it might be a hindrance to their business, their operations, their reputation. When you focus on people, business, operations, reputation, oh! Snap! There’s a financial impact. People might not want to shop here. Somebody might even think there might be a protest and then somebody might use a protest as an opportunity to loot this store. And it might not be a Black person. There might be anybody. But I think it’s in their best interest, it’s in the organization’s best interest, to focus on the Black population. And I don’t think it started with Black Lives Matter, showcasing that. But I think it has increased. I think people look at that organization as a beacon. And there is a ton of Black grassroots organizations that are out there trying to make change, trying to do different things. I won’t say I’m educated about all of the work that is taking place within Black Lives Matter and what is taking place in all those grassroots organizations. But me personally, talking about Black Lives Matter and how it has affected me, I’m like man. Any Black person, I think, when you look at Black death over and over, not even only Black people, you look at outside the community, you’re like, okay. How do people feel if they see somebody Black on the news die? Ultimately, their head is like “Oh, another one.” And go about their day. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: It has become so repetitive to the point where it’s just like you sort of become numb to it. And I never want to be numb to Black death. But, ultimately, with the push of social media, these graphic scenes, these things that—They need justice. It needs to be brought to light. But I’m like, man. It affects people. It affects me. And I just don’t want it to affect me to the point where I’m just numb, completely. (chuckles) Ho: Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, you’re seeing it too much and you’re afraid that you will start to become numb because it’s just everywhere now. Adamsel: And like you said, after a while—I don’t know how other Black people feel. I feel how I’m going to feel. But, after a while, you start looking and you start wondering, when will things change? Have they changed? If they’ll ever change? And right now, you can’t answer that. But have they changed from when your parents were going through it, or your family went through it to now? I can’t say they have. I can say, “Oh, it’s visualized a lot more.” So, at what point do you get away from visualization and you get towards action, you get towards new policies, you get towards actual protections for people who are people but they’re not being treated like such? And then, when they’re not being treated like people, why is that? I know it’s going to be a sound bite. I know it’s going to be popular. This is probably going to make news media, companies money. Because everybody’s infuriated. Everybody’s enraged. They’re the talk of the town. And I just wish Black death wasn’t the talk of the town. I wish it never had to get to that. Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. What else have we not covered that you would like to cover? Adamsel: Um. Ho: Anything? Adamsel: Let’s see. (appears to be reading something off-screen) External…Institutional… Ho: And did you think of any more people that you’d like to give a shout out about? Adamsel: I did not. Like I said, they’re probably going to have to come text me and talk to me, if I forgot. (both laugh) But no. I don’t know if I have anything more that’s major. I think I probably spoke more in-depth than I thought I ended up needing to. But it was good. For me, it was a good conversation. I didn’t know it was going to go down that path or even we were going to get in-depth in all those questions. But I do appreciate it. I mean I do like the level of support that the library is trying to do to bring these thoughts together, I guess, before we get too old, and we start forgetting. Ho: Yeah. Adamsel: Especially like the part we played in all of it. Ho: Mm-hmm. That is really important, for sure. Adamsel: Yeah. And when you all showcase this, especially with memory, is this something if a student, in 2059, they’ll be scrolling, they’ll be able to go “Oh, University Archives, Black Student Center origin,” or something like that? Ho: Yeah. Basically. I don’t know that it would just be a bunch of videos available to a random scroller. But, for future researchers who are interested in the university’s history or the Black student experience on our school or in general in America or California or, you know, student life identity-focused centers, things like that. It’ll definitely be available to researchers. Adamsel: I hope that they have a great experience learning more about that. I feel like sometimes, when you learn more about the Black students experience in California or probably in most schools that probably are not, even historically, Black universities, but when I think of a Black student’s relationship with higher education and with inequity in the world, and then you play that into the normal wealth gap with African Americans, Black people in America, with anybody else, it’s a crazy contrast between how many of us are going to universities is a crazy contrast with inequities. And you would think more people would be like “Oh, let’s do what we can to make that look like a better option.” And it doesn’t start at college. It starts with the K-12 system as well. So, it’s just like our relationship with the education system between what we know is designed to make people, ultimately, better off, there’s something that’s going on that makes us look like that institution is not for me. I don’t want to be there. And I’m just like, man. It sucks. But I can’t act like college is for everyone. I can’t act like it appeals to everyone. It appeals to all of us differently. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: I just wish there was more to offer everybody who chose to go that route because there is so few of us as is. Ho: Yeah. It would be great if every person in America saw college as an option. Even if they chose not to go— Adamsel: Mm-hmm. Ho: —if they at least knew that it was an option that was viable for them if they wanted to go. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: That would be ideal for sure. Adamsel: Exactly. And I think that’s very true. Ho: So, if there is nothing else, I will stop the recording. Is there anything you want to end with before I stop the recording? Adamsel: Uh, no. I mean, I think the biggest thing is when it comes to ending, I’m very happy with the growth that the Center, Cal State San Marcos, has afforded me in my growth. I went to the university at 19. So, they’re some of the best years of growing in who I was as a leader. I think I knew who I was as a leader when I came. But through a mentorship, through role models, through networking, I think I became an even better person than I ever hoped I’d be by the time I left. And really staying connected, being able to be aligned with Black leaders, leaders of all different identities—because I used to only think I could only learn from Black people—but college taught me I could almost learn from anyone who is willing to teach, who’s willing to give out that helping hand. And it was a lovely place for me to grow. And I’m happy with the growth that I’ve achieved there. And I’m ultimately happy with the students that I’ve been able to see grow there as well and graduate. And even people that—It might not have been somebody who had their hand out for me, who looked like me when I first got to the university. But I was able to step up and get help from a lot of different people. And so, when somebody else came behind me, I just wanted to make sure okay, we continue to build that bridge and we make sure that these new students have the opportunity that wasn’t afforded to me. And even looking back to friends, Tiffaney, Jamaéla, even friends I met along the way, everyone was sort of like that key network to help keep Black students afloat and, ultimately, stay engaged through university and break all the barriers that we even thought were there. So, thanks to San Marcos. Thanks to the University Library. I know you all still got the mural probably in there. Ho: Yeah. Hopefully it stays there! Yeah, it’s beautiful. Adamsel: Yeah. I know. It’s amazing. But thank you for even interviewing. Ho: All right. Thanks for being part of it, Louis. Adamsel: No problem. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.xml AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adamsel, Louis. Interview May 28th, 2021 Description An account of the resource In this interview, Louis Adamsel speaks on his time as an undergraduate student at California State University San Marcos, aspects of his life as a student leader, his experience as a Black student and, later, as a staff member. Adamsel discusses his advocacy for the creation of the Black Student Center and the purpose the BSC serves to students, including the necessity of having a variety of resources in order to retain underserved students. He also speaks on mentorships and partnerships, both within the Black community and across identities and spaces. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-08 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Staff California State University San Marcos -- Students Civil rights Student Success Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-05-28 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Louis Adamsel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Moreno Valley (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Watts (Los Angeles, Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Louis Adamsel Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright.</a> Activists and activism Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ef3e26077a9cd553721a81e3601c74a5.pdf 1b64de495fbc1d9da248f576e1cde29f PDF Text Text LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Jennifer Ho: All right. Today is Friday, May 28th, 2021, at 10:07 a.m. I’m Jennifer Ho, archivist for Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, and today I’m interviewing Louis Adamsel for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Students Center and the CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Due to the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic, this interview is being conducted virtually. Louis, thanks for being here with me today. How are you doing? Louis Adamsel: I’m doing lovely. Great to be here. Thank you for the invite. Ho: Yeah. All right. So, let’s get right to it. Tell me about your childhood. Where were you born? Where did you grow up? Adamsel: So, where I was born and ultimately where I grew up are two different places. I was born and I spent early part of my childhood in Watts, California, Watts, Los Angeles, so beautiful place. Got early experiences of education there. Just family, very beautiful place. But from Los Angeles, Watts, Los Angeles, we ended up moving to the Inland Empire, Marino Valley. And that was more desert-type. It was hotter but it was a great place to learn, grow up. And that’s where a majority of my childhood friends are from, and I still have family there to this day. Ho: Okay. Your parents still live in Marino Valley? Adamsel: Yeah. My guardian. I was actually raised by my aunt, so— Ho: Okay. Adamsel: —yeah. My aunt, yes, she still stays out there. Ho: All right. All right. Thank you. And so, did you go through high school in Marino Valley then? Adamsel: Yeah. I went to Rancho Verde High. (chuckles) Home of the Mustangs. I graduated back then, about 2012. So, almost 10 years ago, but— Ho: Okay. Adamsel: —but it was a lovely time. Ho: All right. Great. Thank you. Tell me, how did you come to your understanding of Blackness? Adamsel: I think I came to my understanding of Blackness just due to my environment. Like I said, I was born in Watts, Los Angeles. And I know my aunt worked in the school systems out there. And so, from early on, being close to schools, it was always great. I don’t know. I always was around Black people: my cousins, sisters, everything. I think that was just normal to me, Blackness. But then I think the biggest piece about Blackness was just about, when I was younger, I used to love reading. And so, with that comes history, learning about who you are in relation to the world. And the earliest bits of history was, I think, elementary school. But I can remember—it was 102nd Street School and I think there was a ceremony rededicating the name to Florence Griffith Joiner Elementary School. And so, right then, there was the history of a Black track star, one of the greatest female athletes. And boom! And my interest just—that started it. But through reading, through writing, through understanding people, through understanding different cultures, if you want to do anything in the world in relation to other people, I think the biggest piece is understanding that relation to yourself and where you come from and, ultimately, how the world perceives you. And especially being from Los Angeles and even understanding Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 whether it’s relationships to police, understanding relationships with low-income communities, whether or not you understand it all entirely when you’re young, you can see differences. You can understand people and places where you might not see a specific race in a certain area, but you might see them everywhere else. And then, you put the two and two together at a young age. And I think through education and through reading and through history, you can sort of understand a little bit better. But, yeah, I feel like I always knew. (chuckles) Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Through experience and learning. Adamsel: Yeah. Exactly. Ho: (several words unintelligible) Definitely. You mentioned that you did a lot of reading. Was reading something that you were interested in on your own, or did your aunt encourage you to read? Or was this all through school? Adamsel: I think reading was something that I did on my own a lot because I ultimately enjoyed it. I think it was peaceful and it fit, once you understand letters and the relationships, it was like figuring out a puzzle for me. I know my aunt, growing up in the household, reading was encouraged. Also having—I remember I would have older siblings and there would be scholastic book things, and every student reads at a specific level. And I had a sister who was three years older than me, and I would pick up, sometimes, her books from school. And I would take her readings just to read them because I would get bored if I was reading something or I finished series. But I was always in the library, always reading, and always searching for whether it was non-fiction, fiction. I loved it. And I still do. But I feel like, when I was younger, I think I used that as a way to—I like being by myself reading more than playing video games. And it shows in my skills today. (chuckles) Ho: Okay. That’s great. As a librarian, I can identify with that. (both laugh) Okay. So then, related question. What were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? You kind of touched on this already but anything to add to that? Adamsel: Well, yeah. So, I mean I think I was always taught about the Black experience through my household. I was raised by women who thought it was really important to teach you about the way you might be perceived, about the way you should act in public, treating people with respect. But the older I get, I don’t think that was by coincidence, by choice. It was because they were older black women who probably saw how black men were being treated in Los Angeles, specifically even anywhere you go. Even in the Inland Empire, being mindful of your surroundings is a sense of security. I think that was something that was always taught because one, you never know who’s watching; but then there’s also if anything goes down, you might also be taken at a—how would you say? Like you’re not going to be given the benefit of the doubt. I think that’s what was the message that was trying to be given to me at a young age. And like I said, I didn’t really need anybody to tell me. I mean, I had family to tell me, uncles, aunts, anything. They would tell me the basics of be mindful of what’s going on in the streets, going to and from school, being in life. But then, also reading, whether it was historical books, whether it was non-fictional accounts from people and different areas. I feel through travels—my family used to send me off to different places, whether it was to visit family in Georgia or Detroit and allow me to soak in environments, and “Hey, go use public transportation, but understand how to blend and go about your daily life.” But in that Black experience, one, it was a lot of lived moments. It was a lot of learned experience, just through hands-on teaching. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: But through reading books, sometimes you can use other people’s experiences, other people’s lives and allow that to shape your understanding of those relationships, intercultural. Like I said, it’s all about how people perceive you. And then, based on their perception of how they might view the Black man in America or even Black kids in America, they’re going to treat you a certain way. And it’s through family teaching, I think I was able to realize, whether it was if I didn’t know the term “microaggression,” I could tell if somebody was a little bit more disrespectful to me or if somebody had respect no matter where you came from and, also, if I even wanted to bother with certain people just because of what I thought their perception of me might have been. Ho: Thank you. You mentioned visiting family in Georgia and other places. Can you briefly touch on your experience in L.A. versus Georgia and then also in San Marcos. I know they are three totally different locations in terms of demographics and culture. How was that like for you? Adamsel: Yeah. So, I’ll touch on that. I mean, when it comes to Watts versus—and then, I’ll even bring in like Marino Valley. So, Watts was a place where, even through history, one of the things that’s really prominent that I used to like the most when I was a kid was just even the brief history of the Watts Towers. These are towers in Watts but when you read—it’s sort of folklore but it’s a true story—but the books talk about a man being able to build the Watts Towers out of recycled materials, old mosaic artwork, everything and builds these—I forget how many towers are in there, but beautiful, beautiful structures made out of restructured material. And every time I used to go to school, I used to see these towers as a little kid. And I’m like “Man!” and try to find out the story about that. I used to—“Man, you could do anything with recycled materials. It looks beautiful. It’s structurally sound, and people respect it” and then also knowing that somebody came here to build that in a place that (clears throat) when you think about Watts, sometimes people have mixed reviews about it. It might not be labeled as one of the safest places for everybody. So, it’s one of those things that I used to like, being able to connect with people, and also seeing the amount of black and brown people in that city. I think that I used to appreciate that, and I think going to elementary, second grade out there, it was one of those things. My introduction to the school system started there. But that was also where I had some of my first Black teachers. And so, it was a lot of that there, even the afterschool programs. I feel like whether I knew it or not, I was soaking in those experiences. And when I went to the Inland Empire, I mean it really wasn’t like on a historical Black history tip in the Inland Empire. But that was also a growing city. And I think a lot of people migrated out there. It was a growing place. And I felt like that allowed me to be in an environment where it was sort of carefree. I could learn. I could sort of be— (clears throat) like my environment wasn’t going to shape me any way. I don’t think my environment, and the Inland Empire, it may not have been Black centric. But I still feel like there was opportunities for me to go any direction that I wanted to. When I’m in my studies, I still found pockets of Black mentorship or a teacher here or there. But I just feel like just the overall environment and that quality of life, it was just something simple for a young man to grow up in. You still see those different relationships. You still see it play out. You still would be taught by family. But it was a totally different environment than L.A., slightly less busy. And I think I like that internally. And when I think about Georgia, visiting family whether it was Georgia—I think one of the biggest things that I was able to do when I visited Georgia, one, is just see the difference in Black culture as a kid. I remember going to Georgia and then, in the summers, some of the friends and things that I would make in local parks or kicking it with family, you see them doing Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 things different. You see Black kids playing baseball, whereas in California I’m like “We mainly play basketball” over there. Or just different accents. And I have family from the south. So, I feel like the accent really wasn’t a difference. But also, the historical areas, you could go down, visit MLK Museums or Black History museums and just soak up, I think, the southern culture a little bit more than you technically would on the west coast. I’m not saying the west coast doesn’t have a vibrant Black culture. But when you come from a place where, whether the narrative wants to be blatantly told or not, you’re going to have a museum that captured things that some people might want to forget. Or just in the street names, or just in the local—even like the weather. You soak in so much from the people who have been there, who have lived it for generations and generations. And I feel like that’s one of the things that I still love to this day, traveling to different areas who their past has been, ultimately, a lot of Black history. And they have to—there’s so many different ways for them to keep track of that history and that culture. And it lives on through whether it’s food, music, style. I like it all, and it’s all a blend. Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s great. Identity is really important, and knowing about your history and your people really grounds you and shapes you. And it’s really important, for sure. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: Definitely. Okay. So then, what about San Marcos? Why did you decide to come here, and then what about the culture of this area brought you here? Why did you choose San Marcos? Adamsel: Yeah. To be honest, one of my homeboys, one of my friends from high school, we used to be in band together. And I think he came here—Damien Brandtley—he was a scholar here. But he had just told me about it. He was like “Man, it’s way cooler, weather-wise.” It’s near the beach. It’s a beautiful place. I had never been. But the Inland Empire was hot. And I was like “Yeah. I wouldn’t mind going there.” And I think I had applied but when I had originally applied, I ended up going to the military first. And then I think I was in Virginia and then I had tried again to apply. And then I ended up getting in. But I didn’t come right away. So, I had never seen San Marcos. I had only heard the weather was decent because it was semi-close to the beach. You can get there by local transportation. But when I came to San Marcos, I think I appreciated the hills. I appreciated the calmness of San Marcos. I came in 2013. I feel like they built a building every single year since then, and it’s developing. It’s not the calm city. Well, it probably won’t be the calm city that I’d seen. But when I’d first seen it, it was just so calm and so peaceful. And I think I enjoyed that peace. I won’t say it was like I was looking at San Marcos and I’m like “Oh my god, the demographics of the Black population are just so amazing.” (Jennifer chuckles) You know, I’m gonna feel enveloped. But I’m not the kind of person that says, “I need my group to be the most dominant in the area to thrive.” I didn’t look at San Marcos like that. I looked at San Marcos as a place where it was a young area. And I was like “Well, if this place is growing, I can grow with it” because I can’t grow in a place where it’s like too much going on around me. I won’t probably be able to focus. I was nervous about that. And, yeah, so San Marcos, a beautiful place. I feel like the demographics were all over the place. But I still felt like it was a majority White. I know it became a Hispanic institution. So, we get some trickles of culture there. Our Native American Land Act, that’s great. But one of the things I always noticed around my time in school is just the rate, the percentages of Black Americans at Cal State San Marcos, typically like 2.5, 3%. And that stayed the same. And I never really understood that dynamic in the relationship to Black students, understanding do they know it’s here? Is it a cool place to be? But it just didn’t seem—I feel like we got—there was Blackness here, but I felt like the community, anybody that was here, typically had to band together because we were here together. But yeah, it feels like San Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Marcos wasn’t that place where I was just “I’m going because the Black population.” I think I went because it was a young university, and I think the university was still making a name for itself. And so, I came in at a time where I was like “Hey. I want to do that too.” So, we had similar visions. (chuckles) Ho: Okay. That’s nice. I like how you said that you and the university would grow together. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: That’s really great. Remind me what years were you at Cal State San Marcos? Adamsel: I was there from 2013, Fall 2013, to Spring 2018. Ho: Okay. Now tell me what’s your relationship to the Black Student Center? Why did you get involved? Adamsel: Yeah. My relationship is I think I got involved because of friends. Being a young Black man on Cal State San Marcos’s campus, even staying in the dorms my Freshmen year, one of the natures of my relationship to campus used to be “Let me go to class, and then let me go back to the dorms, maybe work on homework, maybe not.” But I felt like I had a lot of friends in the dorms. And that was my relationship to campus. But then, ultimately, I started knowing more and more people who were upper classmen. And I think it might have been like Kakailah or Tiffany Boyd, but different people had come into my friend group and they’d be like “Oh, you know, on Tuesdays we’re going to this Black Student Union meeting.” And I think ultimately my relationship with fellow Black students on campus started thriving. So, when it came to, I believe it was like my, it might have been my second or third year in Cal State San Marcos. And that was one of the things. I used to actually just be like a fly on the wall when it came to the matters of BSC arriving, thinking about Jamailah, Tiffany. Yeah. We’d have conversations about “Oh, you know, we’re thinking about Black Student Center, and thinking about what that could mean for university Black students.” And I remember tagging along to like the BSU meetings to promote this idea of “Hey, you know, this is coming! Are we having support from all of us? Is this something that—if there’s ever going to be sign holding or different things like that.” Because I know Tiffany and Jamailah were very involved with student government. They were the leaders at that time. I believe Tiffany was president at that time. And that was one of those things where you were just making sure that this is not only an idea coming from two heads but getting that buy-in from an entire community, understanding like “Hey, you know, we have community but if we could have this space, the community probably wouldn’t have to work as hard trying to organize together or even have that spot on campus to where it’s undeniably yours.” Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And so, yeah. I feel like personally I don’t necessarily know. I guess in hindsight you never really know how minor some of your actions might be. Reviewing documents differently, like it may seem so minor. And for me it does, in relationship to the work that Jamailah and Tiffany and a lot of other people have put in, even people not inside the Black community, allies from the LatinaX Center, different other groups and different people around campus. I feel like my work was miniscule but ultimately that Center thrived and came to be. And then, I feel like my relationship with the Center also blossomed because, as Tiffany and Jamailah and some of those other strong pushers of this space, they were there but then they left. And then I’m a student, ended up being involved in student government and then, ultimately, became student government president and then I get to see even more. Being a Black student government president, my relationship with Black students is probably going to be a little Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 different in the sense that this should be a working relationship, for sure. If there’s Black students on campus, I want them to see how seamless it should be to, one, do good work for the university, but then also make sure you’re still seen in your spaces and not sort of having this gap between “Oh, that’s Louis. But we have no idea who he is.” Or he has no ideas (of) what is the regular Black student facing on campus. And I think that was one of the things that I really wanted to do, as a student, even as a student leader, is always make sure that, one, I was seen in those spaces, but then encourage the students who were in those spaces “Hey, because you’re a leader in this space, that means you could lead anywhere on campus. Don’t forget to come back and make sure you’re in multiple spaces at once.” But I was like “That’s what the university needs! They need to see Black people, whether you originated in the Center, because (it’s) a place of comfort.” I’m like “They need to see you in every facet of the university because like why not!” But that’s how I used to treat my relationship to the Black Student Center. I hope I answered that question. Ho: Yeah. For sure. Thank you. Okay. So, tell me. You mentioned Jamailah and Tiffany. Tell me about different leaders on the project and their contributions, including any unsung heroes that maybe we don’t know about because there are always unsung heroes. Adamsel: Yeah. I’m totally blanking on people’s names and times because it was a while ago and Tiffany and Jamailah might beat me up. I do remember there was a Karen Guzman. I remember she used to work closely with Tiffany and Jamailah in getting support of different people. Ho: Was she a student? Adamsel: Yes. She was a student, and I don’t really know how she chooses to identify herself. She kind of acts LatinaX. But I know she was a pusher of this space as well as a pusher for the Latina Center. Um, man, other folks. I think the entire Black community might get a pat on the back for pushing this. Thinking about a Kailah Wiggins, I believe she was one of the first people to tell me to go to a BSU meeting and then, ultimately, leading me to work in conjunction with Tiffany and Jamailah. And, yeah, anybody else who I forget, they(’re) going to probably have to come and talk to me because I’m probably forgetting a lot more names. But there were a lot of unsung heroes. And, for me, even when it comes to unsung heroes, that’s one of the things that I also think about, is as the space grew and as it came to be what it is today, I’m thinking about even all the student workers who worked in the Black Student Center when it first opened. I think about the first director, Anthony Jett. I think about where the space is now from where it was, and I’m—even people like Dr. G or—man, some of our Student Life and Leadership folks that I’m forgetting. But, again, from where it is then to where it is now, that growth, those events, the events that were in person, our Black Faculty Staff Association, I feel like every single Black group on the campus they organize in a way to where they needed to be in that space at some point. And when it comes to that leadership on this, man, there were so many leaders. But it was just something that Black students felt they needed. And then not only felt they needed but then came together to get it. I think that was really powerful. And, yeah, like I said, it was a lot of unsung heroes. But I think, ultimately, everyone’s last vision, from the time it was a spark in someone’s mind to the time they had their first-year anniversary, even coming on multiple year anniversaries to our current director now, I think everybody’s vision is really just to make that space for Black students, one, to feel recognized, to feel seen but then also this is not a soaking pool. This should be the jump-off point. You might come hear introduction to the university but you’re going to bounce off going in so many different paths. But, ultimately, your first relationship to the university, unlike me, unlike some of the unsung Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 heroes, our first relationship to the university wasn’t a Black Student Center. It was just relationships with each other. And if you couldn’t walk past a Black student on campus without knowing their name, that was the conversation. You go “Hey, hey. You know, I haven’t seen you before. You might be a commuter. You might be—whoever you are but we need to know a name so we can at least invite you to our next outing, our next poolside, our next, community service, anything.” But, yeah, thank you for that question. Ho: Sure, yeah. If you think of peoples’ names as we’re talking, please feel free to mention them. Adamsel: Oh, yeah. Of course. I’ll make sure I’ll throw them out. Ho: Okay. Great. So, you mentioned vision and purpose for the Black Student Center. Tell me what the vision and mission and purpose were and what they are now, or as recently as—since we’re not at the university anymore. Adamsel: Man, you know, John— Ho: I mean not word for word but in your opinion. Adamsel: I’m like John might have to hurt me (Jen laughs) because I don’t know the mission, the vision today. But I think that mission—because this is going to have to come off the top of the head and this is going to be mission-based on what I felt, and vision based on what I’ve seen—I think that mission was to create an environment to where Black students felt seen. They felt a little bit protected because they were among people who shared their common experiences along with themselves. And I think it also created a space to where you can be around your peers who share those same experiences. And then, maybe, if people who were not a part of your ethnic background, they want to come in and try to be an ally, try to learn a little bit. It also creates a space for other people to come in and see you in your spaces, how you interact, the events that you put on, and hopefully learn a little bit about your community so they could be better people, better allies. I think the vision, when it comes to the space, is making sure you achieve that Black excellence in the school setting, feel supported by your peers. But then it also—the vision is bringing in that Black faculty and staff component, making sure these students are supported, making sure that if there are other allies in the faculty staff around campus, like “Hey, if you want to come find this prominent group of Black students, people who are involved, if you need to pull things, this creates a space where everybody is on campus.” And let’s say they’re looking for Black students to get involved or mentor, it allows you that area to where you can pull from. And even if you’re not solely pulling from that space as a resource of Black students, it also allows that to be a beacon on campus for Black students as they’re coming, as they’re commuting, like “Hey. I didn’t know this space existed. Boom! Let me pop in there. I don’t only have to be in like a commuter line. Or I don’t only have to be in a library study room.” And then going back to that connectivity and that nature, having that Black Student Center is that homing beacon when we’re on campus. I feel like it adds to our retention, or it should add to the retention. I’m not going to spit out the numbers and say has this done what we expected it to do? But that vision is to increase that campus presence, to increase your interaction with the campus because we all understand building a relationship with a space. Building that relationship with a space will ultimately enhance your relationship to the university. Getting more involved, typically more times than not, will allow students to keep their GPA up, their GPA requirements on things, be a little bit more focused, have more peers around, build better relationships. So, you end up leaving college better than you found it but then you also leave college with a larger Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 network, a couple more experiences—some great experiences at that—and a little bit more understanding of who you are in relationship to the entire world. Ho: Thank you. So, these items that you mention—increasing your network, increasing retention, being a beacon for Black students—are these what the students and faculty and staff had in mind when they were pushing for the Black Student Center? Or was there anything else? Adamsel: Yeah. I think they were pushing for that, and I think some of the students would say I sometimes debate with the phrase “Safe Space.” Yeah, this is a space for you to grow. I don’t necessarily—I work crisis. I don’t necessarily think every single space is safe. I still—We got to do our due diligence. But when we look at the space, I think people wanted it to be a space where they can come see a little bit of history, learn a little bit about their peers. And, ultimately, this is the catalyst for Black students, whether it was research, tutoring. This is the hub. And I think that was the vision that Black faculty, staff, and students wanted to see because, when we came on campus, just the fact of we’re walking up Chavez stairs just like the rest of them, and we’d go all the way to the back of the school. And this is 2013. We go all the way to the back of the school still to meet in like Mark 101, Mark 103, 102. And that was our commute. And we’d see everybody at U-hour. We’re walking all the way across campus or sometimes we’d be in SBSB, you know, walk across campus. We always had to do a migration. But even when the Black—I mean, not the Black student but when the USU was built, the University Student Union was built, we see all these groups in the space. We understand what could be possible, what could be done. But we didn’t have it. And, pushing for that, it’s like okay. Well, we know what we could have. They look like they’re having a good time. They look like their events are awesome. There’s cross-functioning, cross-collaboration going on. There’s support from the university. There is support from Student Life and Leadership. There’s support from our Vice President of Student University Affairs. All these groups have it. We don’t. So, when you see that support from the university, it makes you look and say it looks like in some shape or form, it may not be in entirety that the university is supporting, but just these spaces existing on Cal State San Marco’s campus, that allowed Black students to realize like wow! This is how the university chose to support this, and this is how we are supported. And when you look at differences, differences can sometimes be blatant explanations without needing to say anything. The imagery that I see, the events that I see put on, I’m walking my day-to-day path through the university. I’m feeling the relationship that I am in with the university. But somebody else might feel their relationship is different, based on what they identify with, based on the spaces they can go into and see themselves represented, whether it’s in imagery, whether it’s in dialogue, whether it’s events. And if I get events coming up the end of January ‘til the beginning of March, then I know like oh, wow! This is how you see me. This is how you choose to view me. And this is going to be your relationship with me. Ho: Thank you. I have a list of questions here, but I went way off, just following your— (both chuckle) Adamsel: Oh. It’s all right. Ho: Okay. So, did you experience or witness any push back to the creation of the Black Student Center? Adamsel: Yeah. But I think I experienced it in a multitude of ways. I think there was push back coming from places that you never would think. Ho: Like what? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Adamsel: I think there was push back from student government, on meetings when there would be topics in conversation where it’s like public, like you could see people speaking against bringing on the Black Student Center. And to be honest, I don’t think I really was in those meetings that much, invested. But when I was there, I could see it, or even reading the meeting minutes afterwards, I’m like dang! I didn’t know this person was against it or for it. When the culmination of the Center was starting, I think Cal State San Marcos might have posted something about it, one way or another. And I think there was a multitude of comments, hundreds of comments where it was like “We don’t need spaces for Black people,” dah, dah, dah, dah. It’s crazy to see people just against cultural identifiable spaces. It’s like “Why do you all need a safe space? We don’t have one.” And they don’t understand that relationship. Or “Why do you feel like you need to go into a Black Student Center? We think you’re going to just hide out in there. This doesn’t need to be a space for your hiding. If you want to be accepted, then go places where everybody is and then you’ll be accepted.” Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And it’s just funny how people’s understanding of what you mean by “safe space” means or what some people meant by having a Center, whether it talks about their identity needs, their racial identity needs. I’m just like, man. For me, I think sometimes the pushback was very weird. Or it wouldn’t be pushback, but when you look at the amount of people that felt uncomfortable just walking past our spaces or even being in the space, and you could see a person who wasn’t Black. They might meet somebody who’s Black that’s in the space, might be a friend. But then they’d be lingering at the door like “Hey. Can you come on out?” People just feel awkward when they go into a space that, overall, the majority doesn’t look like them. They’re scared to go in, and they feel awkward going in. But then, when you say, “This is how I feel when everywhere doesn’t look like me,” it’s hard for them to picture it. And I’m like, “Oh. You feel that way when you come into our space. That’s how I feel (when) I’m in your space.” But it’s funny when people can’t do a quick flip in their mind and see like ah! This is probably why you want it and need it. (chuckles) Ho: Yeah. I get what you’re saying. I know who you’re talking about. (both laugh) All right. What did Uiversity Administration communicate was their vision for the Black Student Center, if you remember? Adamsel: Mmm, I don’t know. I know when I was a senior, I did an independent study project with Dream a Moon. And I spoke about the—I forget the title of this independent reader study project—but I spoke about how the university can bring forward something like a Black Student Center and they hope that it would—I think their vision was this will fix all of our problems with the Black community, and we will make this space. And your relationship with the campus, Black students’ relationships with the university, ultimately it will be fixed. And, for me, I think in my research—that was one of the things that I noticed because I felt a way about it—I was like yeah, just because there’s a Black Student Center, that doesn’t mean that the university has fully acknowledged everything that the Black students are going through and then is working to fix (it). Because the Black Student Center is the smallest center in the university student union. But it’s just one center. It only had one director. The budget may have been whatever it was. It was probably—still, it’s a budget. It’s limited. And if the organization, the university, doesn’t change, those Black students that are in that space still don’t feel confident to go out and be leaders on campus. They still might not feel confident to go off and explore different areas. I didn’t necessarily want the Black Student Center to be a safe haven. I wanted it to be a place of exploration, research. You start here but you go anywhere you want on campus. But in order for you to feel like you Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 can be anywhere on campus, that campus has to be inviting. That campus has to be doing more from the top. We need to see it probably in leadership. We need to see it in mentorship. We need to see it in recruitment and retention rates. And these are all things that I cared about. And so, when I was on campus, I worked in whether it was like hiring diversity, on diversity committees, or sitting in African American retention committees. I see the numbers. I see what we’re doing. But ultimately, all that just funneled my thoughts and we’re not doing enough because if we were doing enough, they would feel comfortable. They wouldn’t want to leave. They would be present. But all the people that were being present, again, they consolidated in that Center. And I don’t think it was the Center’s fault. I think it was just acknowledgment that the university thought the Center was the end all, be all. But Black students, people, we naturally need more. We want more. But it takes more than just a space to make anybody feel comfortable to say, “Okay. This university is it. I want to be, ultimately, involved.” And so, yeah, just going off that. I don’t feel that the university administration really—whatever their vision was, I don’t think they pushed it, from top to bottom. It wasn’t reflected in policies. It wasn’t reflected in hiring. It wasn’t reflected in Black faculty and staff numbers. I just didn’t see it. But that’s just me. If there’s some numbers out there that have prove me wrong, show them. (both laugh) Ho: So, are you saying that, based on what you saw, Administration was just like “Okay. Here’s your Center. That’s it. We gave you enough.” Is that, basically, the impression you got? Adamsel: Yeah. That was basically it. I think that the Center was that space to give. It was a place like “We’re going to give this to you. You have it. This should be enough. And we’re going to take a step back.” This is a smaller population. You might be 2.5-3% but this is not a population. I think that should have probably been a red flag. This is a population to cultivate. This is a population—it may be a small representation of our campus but hey, if we cultivate this group, if we make sure we do everything in our power that this group succeeds, we might not be getting monies from federal sources or resources or anything like that. But, for me, I realize taking that initiative and putting that foot forward for any student, I feel like we have pockets of Black faculty and staff overworking to make sure we felt accepted. And there were students who wanted to make sure that the next student felt accepted. But man, that would have felt good coming from the university with university backing, with programs and resources from the chomp. I think about people like Floyd Lai of the Cross-Cultural Center, Andreas Vivella, even Francisco Checa, EOP. All these other groups, all these other resources may have been there for underserved students and even showing Black students “Hey, you call can do mentorships. You all can have that.” And I love watching other spaces, how they worked and how other groups, even if you come from a minority represented population—looking at CAMP students, TRIO, even international students—every population on our campus has the ability to get backing and support and budget outlined for that specific thing. And I loved—I always imagined it like rungs on a ladder. If I was a LatinX student or if I was a white student, how many rungs on the ladder—if I slipped and fell off this ladder— how many rungs would I hit on this ladder until I fell off into nothingness? Am I going to see counselors I could potentially train with? Are there student groups that I could reach out to? Are there counselors or things or events that are specifically targeted to me to where I can hit every step at Cal State San Marcos before I ultimately fall off? And therefore, I feel like Black students, especially Black male students, Black female students, man, there’s not a lot of opportunities to pick you up if you fail. If you fail your first year, your second year, and you decide to fall off the wayside and not come back, how many people or how many organizations would be there to “Oh, we’re really geared towards retention. We’re really Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 geared to making sure you felt safe, comfortable, understood.” I didn’t see that much. And so, for me, that was always on the forefront of my head. Ho: Thank you. Okay. Can you tell me about—Actually, were you at the grand opening of the Black Student Center? Adamsel: Yeah. It was a lovely event. Ho: Okay. All right. Have you seen the same level of support for the Center over the years since it opened? Adamsel: When it opened, I did see some support. I think I saw some university administration go in there and at least try to visit the space. And I think I saw a lot of faculty members across— whether they were in the arts, history, communications professors. I feel like a lot of people chose to partner with the Black Student Center when it first opened. And I saw events out the wazoo. But I think the biggest thing when—And so we’re focusing on partnerships, right? Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: Yeah. So, I think a lot of people came, especially from the opening. Well, it was even before the opening because I feel like it was open a little bit before the grand opening. And so, I feel a lot of people across the university wanted to come and see it, if they supported it. And they even urged their students to go out and come support it. And the grand opening was a great event with performances, food. I believe the president even spoke at the grand opening. And so, seeing that representation from university administration and seeing that support, it showcased like oh, this is what it could be. And the amount of students that were able to come and just because it was a space, whether they wanted to see it or not, they were like wow! Intrigued that this is all happening. And this might be a smaller Center but the things that took place, whether it was on the grand opening day or right after and the years to come, it seemed like it was booming. I think ultimately the Center has transformed from the things that it has done now, one, because of Covid, but even before Covid, I feel like the transformation was really geared at involvement, events, and then really gearing up partnerships. And I think, especially with the hiring of—I forget her title but sort of like the overall—Gail Colevant, Dr. Gail Colevant, what her role in managing all the spaces and those leaders from all those spaces, being able to come together. I image the partnerships are even on another scale now because they are able to communicate calendars and everything. But it’s nice to see the events just being churned out. It’s nice to see that the students have such a greater involvement. And I think—because before, when the Center first started, I think the university presence was like “Hey. Let’s let this Center cultivate.” But now I’m starting to see more “Hey, Black Students. We’re having new policies come out about retention. We’re having new policies come out about—We’re going to go into a study about the Black student experience, especially working with that BSC, Black Student Center.” So, I see the difference and before it was “Hey. We’re going to let the Black Student Center thrive and flourish by itself.” It can go up in flames or it can fly off into the sunset. But I didn’t see more policies supporting the students on a microlevel. Are we talking about how we’re getting students in? Are we talking about how we’re keeping them here. Hey, if the BSC is doing this, are the faculty/staff doing this? Is the university doing this? The onus shouldn’t only be on the students. What about the environment that they’re in? and I think, especially with people going back to campus this Fall, in the Fall of 2021, I’m excited to see hey, are those university policies that are slowly being implemented, what are they doing to make sure that we’re retaining? And not only retaining, are we Transcribed by Melissa Martin 11 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 growing? Is there any possibility of getting past that 3%? Is there any possibility to make students feel comfortable on this campus? And it can be done. But it starts off with things like policies and people really reviewing. One of the things that I pushed back on, even when I was a student, as student government president, I even made that motion to say, “Hey. ASI should separate” because we have the Gender Equity Center and the LGBTQA Center, both great centers, but ASI was having them on their budget. Whereas the university budgets for Centers were different. And I just looked at it like wow. This is the Black Student Center. ASI doesn’t have the money in their budget. Cross Cultural Center is not on our budget. It’s all different. And when I look at the amount of differences, man, this is a lack of equity. And so, especially based on population, that’s all I care about. Are we going to give students in every single space the same opportunity to feel seen, feel accepted, and then also make sure that these university areas have great cross-functional relationships so people don’t feel afraid to learn and support another group, even if you’re not a part of that group? Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And I think if the university continues on that equity-based leadership, that thought process, they could get a much better space of identifying there’s an issue, even if students bring it up, even if you’re being reactive. If students bring up an issue, taking that time to listen to what the students are saying and say “Oh, they say they don’t feel supported. What can we do? They say there’s not enough resources for them. What can we do?” But, yeah, it starts with leadership. It starts with policy. And I think that’s the biggest thing. Ho: Definitely. Thank you for that. Going back a little, you mentioned some partnerships between the different centers. Do the different centers work together a lot in your experience? Adamsel: I think it could be better, at least from what I’ve seen. I do think a lot of times, when I was a student, I used to see other spaces come into the BSC, the Black Student Center, dropping off flyers and say “Hey, make sure you all come to my event,” drop off flyers and say “Come. Come. Come.” But it was never like y’all are doing something. We wholeheartedly want to support you. And there would be some opportunity for that. I don’t want to say none of these spaces I ever supported. But I did see some spaces would come into the Black Student Center to promote, and you know, “Hey. Bring your people. Yeah, we got free food. We got—” Maybe they had the budget to do free food. But they’d be like “Hey, you know, we got this. Come.” But when it was, we’re promoting, whether it was historical movie night or historical U-hour, sometimes they would be slow to come. And I think one of the things, especially from our first Director, Anthony Jett, that was one of the things that he would do, is work on those relationships. And I think, even from Anthony Jett to John Rawlins, those relationships as a Black Student Center Director are very important. But then it also—one of the things that I also have to acknowledge about those relationships as a Director to the university is they probably have so many different things and policies and ideas that they have to work on and manage as well as events. So, it depends on their relationships. But then I know it also probably depends on the people in those spaces, continuously building that comfort and that support network. And the people in other spaces, we all have to be in that mindset of okay, I’m going to help you get to that next step because either I’m there or I just want to help you out of the kindness of my heart. And I think people, the more that they started coming out and interacting with the Black Student Center, especially from those different identity or cultural spaces, they ultimately got more comfortable, more and more, to do it with the Black Student Center. And nowadays, you see collaboration of events starting, Boom! at the beginning of the semester. We’re Transcribed by Melissa Martin 12 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 going to all get out there, showcase what we all have. And then, I’m starting to see different—You know, “Let’s look at this culture through your lens.” Or “We’re going to all go to the Black Student Center, in collaboration with—” So, I see these relationships are booming. Ho. Mm-hmm. Adamsel: You know, longevity, time, people, these relationships are only going to get stronger. I think in the first couple years, first year or two, we’re going to see that mesh sort of happening and what’s our relationship to each other? How can we support each other? You’re sort of figuring that out. And I think a lot of the other spaces—I think that’s one of the things they had on the Black Student Center is they had probably been there for a little bit. So, maybe that’s one of the things that they were also able to do, sort of give that road map. “Oh, the Black Student Center can host an event like this,” or “We can collaborate with Student Life and Leadership like this.” So, I appreciated seeing that, the growing pains, the relationship building. But ultimately, I don’t think it’s anything that’s especially to a relationship building, I don’t think it’s anything that’s built overnight. And it's just a continuous effort and a continuous mindset to say this is what we want to do, and we really want to support this group of students, this area, the best way we can. And it has to come from the entire community. Ho: Thank you. You mentioned Historical U-Hour, Historical Moving On. Is that what you said? Adamsel: Historical with what? Ho: I don’t know. In terms of programming, you mentioned Historical U-Hour, and then Historical something else. And I was just wondering what those were. Adamsel: Yeah. So, U-Hour, 12-1 hour on the university. And I think it’s like Tuesdays and Thursdays. Well, it may have only been Tuesday. I think it was Tuesday and Thursday when there’s typically no class, from 12-1. So, typically groups and events would take place 12-1. And so, historically, when it came to U-Hour, some of these groups and events had already been out there, whether it’s promoting events, doing different things. And I think they took those experiences, one, it showed the Black Student Union this is how it’s done. And then, the Black Student Union, when the BSC came to be, it was like Boom! We have students who already identify how to throw events, how to work with Student Life and Leadership or ASI to get funding. And even when we got directors—Now, our directors probably have budgets and so they’re able to let us know how they can partner and make the best things for students. But those other spaces, in that relationship, they also use that historical nature of U-Hour to partner, do partnerships, even afternoon events, different things like that. So, I did like that time. And like I said, it’s just ultimately growth together and, through time and longevity, probably get that rhythm of, hey, this partnership was straight. Let’s continue on that partnership. Or what can we do to enhance anything that we’re doing? Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. So, tell me, in your experience, what has been the Black Student Center’s impact on the campus community, as well as you personally? Adamsel: I think their impact on the campus community has been amazing. It has allowed the university to have the support in a different way. (looks off the right in thought) So, wait. Can you repeat that question because I want to try to connect that? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 13 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Ho: Sure. Yeah. Sure. What’s been the BSC’s impact on the campus community as well as the impact on you, personally? Adamsel: Okay. So, the campus community I think is impacted. It’s a decent impact. It’s not anything that has caused waves of change, at least when it first came. And, to this day, I think it can be a beacon of change. But the impact was it gave students a beacon, Black students particularly. It gave us an area to where it’s like, okay, orientation efforts. Can we focus on making sure that they’re coming? Communications are routed through the BSC. Can we get representation that way? Our impact with involvement, it has impacted that. It has allowed Black students to take up leadership roles in areas, whether they’re student workers, whether it is giving tours to different people about the space. It has allowed us to host a majority of different things and even allowed areas like Black Student Union to meet or hold events. It has been a catalyst for the students that were there as well as faculty and staff to understand like hey, if I wanted to come during U-Hour and sit and learn or sit and chat with current students about what I do, maybe opportunities for mentorship, I’m like wow! They already know where they can come to do that or come to get information on how to do it and how to further impact our students. So, I feel like the impact has really been on a community level. It has been broadening. It has allowed faculty, staff from all areas in university leadership, all areas to have a beacon point to not really see the entire Black population but to see, okay, if we wanted to talk to people who see current students or even get feedback, bounce ideas off, how can we best serve the needs of students today? At least it gives the university—this could probably be like the north star along with some of the Black student organizations. And when I talk about another piece, it’s organization, you know. If students have issues or they feel like they can’t go to student government or they want to talk about administrative or other things like that, the Black Student Center Director also can create that environment to where now it’s okay, you have another person in the leadership capacity through his relationships, through her relationships. I don’t want to say like his or her because they might see this on video in a couple of years. It might be a different person. (chuckles) But that director can be another person to carry their ideas forward. And, yeah, so the impact. Again, amazing for what it’s doing now. Can it be better? Yes. We all want the best for that space. But I think ultimately that impact has impacted the Black student life on campus in a decent way. And now, the impact of Black Student Center, I want it to have an impact on policy in the entire university as a whole to where hopefully we get to a point where you ask somebody how to get to the Black Student Center. Hopefully any faculty on campus can let you know where it is, or they understand about the importance of why it’s there and make some time in their role on Cal State San Marcos to visit. Now, when you get into the impact that it had on me, I’m the kind of person—I feel like I would have been who I was regardless of the space. I’m that kind of person. I feel like I would have been a great human being. I would have been a decent human being. But when it comes to the Black Student Center now, my opportunity for change started way before that because I feel like it was just being around my peers in a different way. And I think that initiation started when I got involved with the Black Student Union, even bringing Omega Psi Phi, which is a historically Black fraternity on campus. We are able to join that. And I think just around my peers, and it started with the BSU. It started with involvement with other organizations. But when the BSC came, I’m like man. It kept me grounded. It kept me—My ear was always to the needs of all students, but specifically Black students. And then I also saw myself represented. I felt like I was able to provide feedback and talk to people with similar experiences as me. I was able to get involved with mentorship areas. I think that relationship that I had, even when I became a staff at Cal State San Marcos, I was even able to have a Transcribed by Melissa Martin 14 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 relationship with John and some of the other students and meeting with Black male students and faculty and staff, meeting with all students, holding events, be faculty advisors for different organizations. It was lovely and I think their impact on me, it’s profound. Like I said, it just—I don’t know—it motivated me to do better for them to make sure that I could always support them because that’s what I felt I needed. And I think that’s one of the best parts about this space is, as a Black student, if you choose to get involved, you’re going to notice gaps in what you see or what you felt as a student. And ultimately, when you have a chance to get involved in any capacity, you’re going to figure out, okay, how do I make the next student not feel how I felt if I felt discontent. And when it comes to Black students in Black spaces, they might have extra challenges on how they may feel discontent, whether it’s through microaggressions, whether it’s through lack of understanding, whether it’s through lack of Black leadership, whether it’s anything. So, taking it a step further, especially with Black students, I’m like “Hey. We probably noticed the same things. You probably felt the same way I felt when you first got here. You probably feel like there is not enough black representation at this space. But what can I do to bridge that gap? What can I do to make sure that if I could take a little bit of that away, will I get you to stay another semester? Let’s get you into something that you actually like to do. And if not, how about I point you into the direction of the doctor Mahatmas, the doctor Jeffrey Gilmores, the professor Rawlins, the Black Student Center Director. What can we do to make sure somewhere along the way,” —even LaPorcha, over at Student Life when she was here—“what can we do to tap you into someone that can help you? And I think about the people like Gezai Berhane up in Student Life and Leadership or Marilyn Williams, Ariel Stephenson. And that was also an impact point for them, too. They are working in Office of Diversity or Student Life and Leadership and Black people as well, the BFSA, all those folks are going right there and getting people involved where they are because it’s like they know you get involved, you start coming, you start insisting, you’re going to have a job to do on the campus. You’re going to associate this campus with a little bit more than just go to class, go home, go to class, go to the BSC, go home. You’re getting some skin in the game. So, I think that’s what everybody started doing and ultimately that’s what—I didn’t need the BSC to do it, but I think the students in the BSC ultimately gave me way more skin in the game than I wanted. But it was necessary, and I loved them for it. Ho: That’s lovely, thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Two more questions, and they can be as short or as long as you want but are there any, I don’t know, behind the scenes stories you want to share? Or anything else you want to say about the Black Student Center or your time at Cal State San Marcos so that one hundred years from now, when you and I are gone, the stories are going to still exist. Anything else? Adamsel: I felt I got some fabulous stories about my time at San Marcos, but I don’t know if I care to go into all of them. I think I did sort of tell one about—I spoke about being a student government leader and, lightly, I’d spoke about addressing the fact that ASI was housing two spaces. And we didn’t house the BSC, the Black Student Center. The Latina Center was not sponsored by us. The Cross-Cultural Center wasn’t sponsored by us. But we sponsored the LGBTQA and Gender Equity Center. And, for me, I think it’s so weird being in the position of leadership and seeing—And it may not even feel like inequity to people. But people can live life and you can be doing something, and you can look at budgeting and everything like that and you can be like “Wow, I’m housing these two spaces.” And then I look at Black Student Center and it’s not equity. They’re not getting the same—They’re not even probably getting the same percentage. Or look at the Cross-Cultural Center. See what people are able to do in the scope of a university and see what the university values. And the university can say they value something, they Transcribed by Melissa Martin 15 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 value Black students. But we don’t all have the same sort of carrot, sort of the same opportunity to have the quality of events, everything. And I think that was one of the things that—It was weird because when I’d spoke about cutting ASI off away from those two spaces, (sighs) man, the directors, the people, the students in those spaces. That was like a funny time for me because I’m a leader. And I spoke to my Board about it, and I was like “Hey man, they’ve got to probably come off this budget.” One, students were not happy. There was a small pocket of students and I don’t want to take anything away from my friends and colleagues in Gender Equity Center and LGBTQA because I don’t think that’s something that a student should protest. But students were right because ASI student fees, they come out of everybody. And I think some of the students were upset that my student fees are coming out of something and paying and sponsoring something I don’t believe in. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And as a student, I was like “Man. These people are talking crazy! But they’re right.” Because if I believe in—You could believe in any—I could believe in McDonald’s. If I go choose to spend my money at McDonald’s, that’s great. But I shouldn’t be able to take your money, if you don’t believe in McDonald’s, and spend it at McDonald’s. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: But as students, I’m like how do you combat this? And then you don’t have to combat it. I think the university should create a space to where they’re like ‘Here, we believe in our Native American brothers and sisters whose land this is. Here, we believe in Chican/X, Latin/X students. We believe and support Black students. We believe and support all gender identities.’” I’m like “That’s the university. That’s what the university should say.” And if people step into the university, they should understand this is a place where we value all of that. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: Now, if their monies don’t—Their monies are probably going to go to it because they pay tuition. You’re going to pay tuition, that’s cool. But it shouldn’t be in a place where they can attack it. And student government was a place that policies could change, where they can attack it. I’m like I’m president today, but if a president 10 years from now chose to dissolve these places—I mean, it’ll probably be hard to do but under student government these places are under attack. And unless you have all the spaces in that area under attack, then you can’t do it. Unless you have all those spaces getting the same budget, you shouldn’t be able to do it. But the one thing that stuck with me was the amount of students talking to me, as a Black man on campus, loved by some, hated by some. But they came to attack me, to tell me I didn’t care about those spaces. I remember that. They came to tell me I didn’t know the definition. You know, I’m a Black man, senior on campus, Communication major. I love it all. Educated. And they came to tell me “You don’t know the definition of intersectionality. You don’t understand us.” And all I’m trying to do is make sure when I go see Black students in their space that they’ve got the same resources. I’m looking at ASI. We can push out hundreds of events for our different centers that we hold. But for other areas we don’t print. We don’t host events for them. We don’t do that. And I wanted to mentally take ASI away from serving some and make sure we push the university. I think, when I used to have meetings with President Haynes, I spoke to her and I was like—I was doing my own research, my own due diligence, going through old meeting minutes to figure out why do we keep these spaces? And Black Student Center came up, Latina Center came up. What made the Transcribed by Melissa Martin 16 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 university take those spaces? And through research, through communication with Dr. Checa, Marina Checa, and talking to ASI—I was even looking at the inaugural addresses that President Haynes had. And I think sometime along the line, I think it was like 2104 or something like that, she was like “We value the LGBTQA Gender Equity Center.” I took that and ran with it. (chuckles) And I was in a meeting with her, and I was like “People are attacking these ASI spaces. What can we do to make sure these spaces, as well as the Black Student Center, Cross-Cultural Center, Latina Center, I want to make sure that these spaces all have that umbrella.” Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And then, a couple of months later, I think I was on a hiring committee for Dr. Gayle Colevant. (laughs) It was lovely to see her being there in that space, all under the same umbrella like I envisioned, and then ASI being a new catalyst where you see the food pantry vision, the student at events side with CAB, the Board representing student needs. You can’t look at ASI now and try to attack any piece because every single piece services everyone. And not only that, ASI is now that space to where they can connect to every single identity space, cultural space, and again, allow each one to grow in their own right. And I’m so proud of that but I think coming into a space where you’re a Black man at Cal State San Marcos and people are attacking you for wanting everything to be equal, and to let you know even though people necessarily route for you, when something is—if they deem something is attacking them, instead of understanding, sometimes, first they’ll be uncomfortable and then they’ll attack. And then, you just hope years down the line as time goes on, you’re like “Okay. I hope that you can see what my vision was, and your relationship in that, and you lost nothing by promoting me.” And sometimes, I think people think like “If we try to make everything—I’m going to lose something, or my salary might go down or my events or who’s going to do this?” No. You don’t lose nothing by making sure that everyone has a piece of the whole. And yeah, so that was a fun story. Ho: Yeah. Adamsel: I don’t know if all of that is in meeting minutes somewhere. But I laugh thinking about the past. (chuckles) Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that when the Gender Equity Center and the LGBT Center were under ASI, you wanted to move them over to the university but there was push back for you moving those two centers to the university? Adamsel: Yeah. And my Board—I spoke to my executive Board, and I was like “Got a crazy idea.” And when Louis has got crazy ideas, I’m the President. My team, bless them, they supported me. I explained it. I spoke about equity. I spoke about what the vision was, and I hoped they got it. And so, we took that to the main Board of Directors, and I said, “This is what I want to do.” Now, when those Centers and those leaders and some of those students got wind of it, then there was an opportunity for them to come and tell me to my face about their feelings, their emotions, how what I was doing was wrong, how much they hated that thought that we could just push them out. I think they thought ASI is kicking you to the curb because there is some—I don’t know if they thought ASI—They thought Louis was— (laughs) Ho: It was more personal. Adamsel: —and to see ASI, oh—even though we had a great relationship before then, instantly it became why can’t we be a part of ASI anymore? Even though our missions are the same—I mean, are Transcribed by Melissa Martin 17 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 not the same. Our visions are different. What we’re servicing on a day-to-day basis is different. It just became a different relationship instantly the moment I brought that to the forefront. And like I said, I think it’s because the mindset relationship to I’m going to lose something if you do X, Y, or Z. And now, upon explaining it, some of those students in those spaces came to me, “Louis, love you. When I first heard about it, I was not cool with it. But when you explained it, it made sense.” And then some were like “I ain’t talking to you.” (laughs) And that’s understood. And the leadership, pro-staff, students, no matter how they felt, I knew how I felt about equity. I knew how I felt as a Black student. I knew how I felt when you walk into events and you see what people are able to do, the magnitude, the budget, the promotion, and you’re like “Wow, that space can’t do that.” And there are still students to this day that don’t have spaces. But I’m like, “Man. In the future, Cal State San Marcos is going to grow and grow and continue to make spaces for people and identities. If we choose to make spaces, can we ultimately decide that this will be under that umbrella? And student government can be a little bit more of an assisting tool as a jump-off point, as a financial resource for all students.” But I just didn’t want it to be anything that people combatted. And I was really surprised to see pushback. But it happens. Ho: Yeah. For sure. And when you’re in a position like you were in, you’re always going to have to deal with it, I suppose. Adamsel: Yeah. And I think I knew that. But I think pushback is weird coming from people who also very well are attacked. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: People are marginalized. People are—They may face similar struggles or very different struggles than me. But when I get to a point of leadership, I want people—If I’m acknowledging the issues that you may have in society or in life or in navigating the university, I want you to be able to sort of have the same selfless nature and acknowledge how things might not be equal to anyone. And when we can do that, then it’s like okay, we can always have a conversation with anyone because then you’re able to put yourself metaphorically in somebody else’s shoes. And I think that’s the biggest thing. And I think, as a leader, that’s one of the things that allowed me to get along with just about anyone and everyone because I’m able to talk to you and be like “Okay. Have you considered this? Or is there anything about you and your needs that I need to consider? And through conversation and communication, we get to the bottom of that.” But there are sometimes there’s people that don’t want to talk. And they don’t want to have to develop and change their views, even for a little bit, because that means I have to give something up. And if you think you have to give something up just for somebody else to be comfortable, to feel seen, to have that same equity that you do, then I’m like you don’t really want change. You just want to be comfortable. You want to be there by yourself on an island of comfort. Yeah. Exactly. And I think you can expect it from certain people, certain groups. Like if somebody is blatantly, overtly racist, you can expect it from that person. But when it comes from a person, you’re like “Oh, you can be a person of color. You can be a marginalized community. You can be—” You know, even in my community. It’s like you expect yourself to have the same views and values. You may not. And that’s okay. But you just push through it. And you learn and see okay, what can I do to bypass that pushback? And try to—I think that was one thing special, as a Black male student leader. I used to have to be calm, reserved. And I used to have to think strategically, to the point, because I know how I can be perceived on a day-to-day basis. And I know in certain spaces, you’re not going to come talk to me. And in certain places, I would be disrespected. But I’m just like “Wow. It’s crazy.” Because if I lose my cool, I Transcribed by Melissa Martin 18 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 could be taken off into a totally different direction. (talks as if mimicking students) “Oh, he doesn’t care about us. What a mean person!” So, I understood how—even going back, I understood my relationship to people and my relationship to the university. And it’s a crazy thing to acknowledge, but that was one of the things that, being a student there, being student government president, working in leadership, catering to students, and even being a professional staff, I always had to be mindful of who I was in my relationship to people because I knew, especially based on who I am, I could easily be misconstrued. Ho: Thank you. Okay. Are there any questions that I should have asked but didn’t? Adamsel: Hhmmm. (laughs) Nah. I mean I don’t’ know. I have no idea. (Jenn laughs) Well, actually, you didn’t talk about the social justice activism. Ho: Yes. I did not ask that question. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: Would you like to go into that? How has Black social justice and activism, such as the Civil Rights Movement, Feminism, the Natural Hair Movement, and Black Lives Matter affected you? Thank you for calling it out. Adamsel: I think those movements affected me in different ways all over. When I think about the Civil Rights Movement and different things like that, I correlate the Civil Rights Movement going back to— think about Martin Luther King but even thinking about Martin Luther King and communities like Black communities in that day, pushing for equality, equity, and civil rights. I think back to education. I think of Carter G. Woods and miseducation of the Negro. I think about people pushing for Black people to be educated. And so, when I look at the Black populations on campus, I think back to, man, equity. What are we doing to change that generation from the generation before us? What are we doing to push more Black professionals into the workforce? Hopefully with as little overhead as possible, and getting them into the career fields, one, that they love but also making sure that they have the network not only to do what they love and then succeed and excel at it. When it came to the Natural Hair Movement, I’m in that all day, with the little bit that I have. But I think that was something where when I’d seen the Natural Hair Movement, I saw that take place on campus to where men and women in our spaces, you know, “Let’s create these events that our natural hair shows” and getting more Black businesses into our university and making sure when Black students are at campus at Cal State San Marcos, they know the local barbers, the local hair stylists that can do what they need to do, whether it’s protective styles, wear your natural hair. I like that because it builds a sense of community within our group but then it also builds a sense of collaboration in our area, increasing that network. When I think about feminism, I think back to Professor Michelle Holland. I think about when I took a feminist rhetorical theory course from her. She’s one of the greatest professors ever. But she’s tough. She going to give you the grade that you deserve. (laughs) And a great professor. But then, I think learning about feminism and learning about the multi-layered areas in feminism and how ideas about feminism—I just didn’t. I looked at my relationship to who I was based on what feminism was talking about and really, I’m like, man. I don’t see myself in this space because a lot of what you’re preaching, some of the feminist ideals from the beginning, it has racism in it. Black women, it’s like we could promote March for Women’s Rights but I’m like, yeah. If you tell me white women got to vote—what was it? Like 54 years before Black women got the vote—there’s inequity there. And if you don’t—I forget—Elizabeth Cady Stanton and everybody on those beginnings, if you’re preaching and you’re sponsoring the beginnings of feminism and there’s Transcribed by Melissa Martin 19 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 racism, I can’t be a part of it. But when I got to learn more about different women in the Black rhetorical feminism and seeing pockets of where Black women have to face racism and sexism in society, I feel like it was very intercommunity focused. And I felt like I chose to look at it as something like—I don’t want to disregard any woman if they’re feeling oppressed or if they have real life things that they’re dealing with, whether it’s sexual assault, abuse, even inequities in pay. These are all bad things. But I think I love to bring it back to focus on where’s my relationship in it and how can I look at it to where I’m the most involved. And I think that brought it back to it looks at family. It looks at the women in your immediate circle. It can look at your relationship with women all over. But, instead of trying to put a mind frame on “Do you love it all?” No. (chuckles) When it comes to feminism, I don’t like all the history. And there are so many different types. I did enjoy researching all about the different variations of feminism. Man, when you dive into it, some are radicals. Some are not. Some are not inclusive. Some are really inclusive. So, I really like that, breaking those things down. And I think it really starts with self. It really starts with how you’re raised, and really looking at how can you impact the community and the area and the women that you’re ultimately in communication with every day? And if you start to see signs of “Hey, somebody’s disrespectful. Somebody did something, the wrong thing.” Or “How do I understand Title IX regulations?” If somebody comes to me and “This is what happened to me!” or “Somebody took advantage of me,” did I do my due diligence to understand, on this campus, do I know how to offer assistance? Do I know how to report, if I’m a mandated reporter? What can I do to make sure, ultimately, that any woman that’s around me, that I come in contact with even if I don’t know her for about an hour or something, if they come to me with needs or issues, even outside the lens of I could take from feminism, but just being a great person, or being a good person, and making sure you’re assisting, or you can. And I think—And stepping outside the box and saying “I’m a guy. I don’t do it. I’m a Black guy. That never happened with me with you.” Or “I don’t think that could happen because I didn’t see it like that.” Being able to take a step back and like “Man. I never thought of it like that.” Or “I didn’t know that that could be misconstrued.” Or “I didn’t know that was a thing.” Can I educate myself? Can I learn how to help? Can I be a better me for the women in my life or my friend, my colleagues? I think I try every day. I’m not going to come on here and say, “Louis was a feminist.” But I’m going to come on here and say through research, through history, through learning from great professors like Professor Holland, learning from classmates and women in my life, ultimately, that’s one of the things that I feel like that affected me to make sure like “Man. I need to know about how it’s affecting people, near and dear to me.” And even if they’re not near and dear to me, how can my relationship still be on a level playing field? And the last topic was Black Lives Matter. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: How has that affected me? And, for me, man. I think Black Lives Matter has affected me in a multitude of ways. And it has been funny, because I don’t really talk about Black Lives Matter. But one of the things I think about Black Lives Matter is like uh, it’s a basic statement. And it’s basic to me because I’m Black. I know I matter. You couldn’t tell me anything otherwise. It’s just common sense to me. And I see people shouting it. And I’m like “Oh, that’s great! Black lives do matter, yeah. I fuck with that.” I mean—my language— (seems embarrassed) I believe in that. (both laugh) But I think one of the things that it really affects me differently when I look at an organization like Black Lives Matter and I don’t know if I like all the tactics that I see from it. Ho: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 20 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Adamsel: And I say that because I’m not a fan of Black male death. And, you know, I’m a Black male in America. But when I see death, I almost wonder—You know, I think back to throughout history we have big signs of death. You have Emmett Till. You think about police brutality with Rodney King. I’m from Watts, so I think about that. I think back to even growing up in places where you’re like, man, a Black man could have been murdered or shot. Or you see it on the news, police brutality, this, that, and the third. And it’s, for me, I’m not taking away any good that they might be able to do. But, for me, one of the things that sucks is just seeing Black male death. And you can see it in recent actions like George Floyd. And there’s so many names, even to this day. It has probably been a lot of Black male and I don’t even want to negate Black female death, Black trans men and women death. But I’m just like man. So, imagine you’re living in a society where every time a Black male, female, any identity is killed, they get a segment on TV. You probably get to see the death, their struggle. There’s a lot of reposting, re-Tweets. Before, it used to be—Like I think something that happened, because I think there was something—I think it was in Missouri or, I forget. But it was a death of a Black man, but I think it was on the— something bad had happened with something else. But I think I even was at school at Cal State San Marcos, and I could see the university didn’t want to talk about that. But they chose to talk about another topic. So, sometimes you see businesses. But now, it’s the hot thing to do. Businesses will talk about the black death or say “We stand with you.” But I wonder, when it comes down to it, how much do you really stand with that group if it’s not representative of whether it’s in your hiring, whether it’s in your policies, whether anything. But I think it has become easier for people to say it without somebody else looking at them. And when I look at organizations like Black Lives Matter, I’m not too invested in them because I live—this is my daily life. This is what we live through. We live through relationships. We live through how people perceive us. We make our own understanding of the world. But I’m, personally, not a fan of Black death and the highlighting of Black death in any facet. And I don’t really know how, when it comes to all of that, you’ve got to think. A lot of this stuff happened when I was in school. But after I graduated, I also worked at Cal State San Marcos for the Emergency Management Department. And my department was actually conveniently located in the Police Department. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And that also was like another thing because it’s like you get to see the differences. I get to see officers, and I like officers in that capacity. But then, I get to also see officers and I’m like I don’t really know, don’t really have a relationship with you. I’m not saying I had a relationship with every single officer at Cal State, but I can also say that I’ve never had a relationship with every single officer in the world. But based on what’s going on in the United States, I could see like “Wow. It’s tragic out here.” So, for me, I think, yeah, just going back to it. Black Lives Matter is not something that, personally, I’m like running to the streets to protest for. I don’t. Because until some of the—I don’t know. I think it has to be a different way to protest for what you need without promoting that death factor. Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that because of Black Lives Matter, we’re witnessing so much death of Black men without seeing an increase in equity in other areas? Adamsel: Yeah. And I don’t even want to put that on Black Lives Matter. Ho: Okay. Adamsel: But this is an organization that they will do their work. But, ultimately, out of their work you see a lot of organizations making statements, pushing out this narrative because they think without Transcribed by Melissa Martin 21 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 making a statement back to Black people, it might be a hindrance to their business, their operations, their reputation. When you focus on people, business, operations, reputation, oh! Snap! There’s a financial impact. People might not want to shop here. Somebody might even think there might be a protest and then somebody might use a protest as an opportunity to loot this store. And it might not be a Black person. There might be anybody. But I think it’s in their best interest, it’s in the organization’s best interest, to focus on the Black population. And I don’t think it started with Black Lives Matter, showcasing that. But I think it has increased. I think people look at that organization as a beacon. And there is a ton of Black grassroots organizations that are out there trying to make change, trying to do different things. I won’t say I’m educated about all of the work that is taking place within Black Lives Matter and what is taking place in all those grassroots organizations. But me personally, talking about Black Lives Matter and how it has affected me, I’m like man. Any Black person, I think, when you look at Black death over and over, not even only Black people, you look at outside the community, you’re like, okay. How do people feel if they see somebody Black on the news die? Ultimately, their head is like “Oh, another one.” And go about their day. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: It has become so repetitive to the point where it’s just like you sort of become numb to it. And I never want to be numb to Black death. But, ultimately, with the push of social media, these graphic scenes, these things that—They need justice. It needs to be brought to light. But I’m like, man. It affects people. It affects me. And I just don’t want it to affect me to the point where I’m just numb, completely. (chuckles) Ho: Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, you’re seeing it too much and you’re afraid that you will start to become numb because it’s just everywhere now. Adamsel: And like you said, after a while—I don’t know how other Black people feel. I feel how I’m going to feel. But, after a while, you start looking and you start wondering, when will things change? Have they changed? If they’ll ever change? And right now, you can’t answer that. But have they changed from when your parents were going through it, or your family went through it to now? I can’t say they have. I can say, “Oh, it’s visualized a lot more.” So, at what point do you get away from visualization and you get towards action, you get towards new policies, you get towards actual protections for people who are people but they’re not being treated like such? And then, when they’re not being treated like people, why is that? I know it’s going to be a sound bite. I know it’s going to be popular. This is probably going to make news media, companies money. Because everybody’s infuriated. Everybody’s enraged. They’re the talk of the town. And I just wish Black death wasn’t the talk of the town. I wish it never had to get to that. Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. What else have we not covered that you would like to cover? Adamsel: Um. Ho: Anything? Adamsel: Let’s see. (appears to be reading something off-screen) External…Institutional… Ho: And did you think of any more people that you’d like to give a shout out about? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 22 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Adamsel: I did not. Like I said, they’re probably going to have to come text me and talk to me, if I forgot. (both laugh) But no. I don’t know if I have anything more that’s major. I think I probably spoke more indepth than I thought I ended up needing to. But it was good. For me, it was a good conversation. I didn’t know it was going to go down that path or even we were going to get in-depth in all those questions. But I do appreciate it. I mean I do like the level of support that the library is trying to do to bring these thoughts together, I guess, before we get too old, and we start forgetting. Ho: Yeah. Adamsel: Especially like the part we played in all of it. Ho: Mm-hmm. That is really important, for sure. Adamsel: Yeah. And when you all showcase this, especially with memory, is this something if a student, in 2059, they’ll be scrolling, they’ll be able to go “Oh, University Archives, Black Student Center origin,” or something like that? Ho: Yeah. Basically. I don’t know that it would just be a bunch of videos available to a random scroller. But, for future researchers who are interested in the university’s history or the Black student experience on our school or in general in America or California or, you know, student life identity-focused centers, things like that. It’ll definitely be available to researchers. Adamsel: I hope that they have a great experience learning more about that. I feel like sometimes, when you learn more about the Black students experience in California or probably in most schools that probably are not, even historically, Black universities, but when I think of a Black student’s relationship with higher education and with inequity in the world, and then you play that into the normal wealth gap with African Americans, Black people in America, with anybody else, it’s a crazy contrast between how many of us are going to universities is a crazy contrast with inequities. And you would think more people would be like “Oh, let’s do what we can to make that look like a better option.” And it doesn’t start at college. It starts with the K-12 system as well. So, it’s just like our relationship with the education system between what we know is designed to make people, ultimately, better off, there’s something that’s going on that makes us look like that institution is not for me. I don’t want to be there. And I’m just like, man. It sucks. But I can’t act like college is for everyone. I can’t act like it appeals to everyone. It appeals to all of us differently. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: I just wish there was more to offer everybody who chose to go that route because there is so few of us as is. Ho: Yeah. It would be great if every person in America saw college as an option. Even if they chose not to go— Adamsel: Mm-hmm. Ho: —if they at least knew that it was an option that was viable for them if they wanted to go. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: That would be ideal for sure. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 23 2024-01 �LOUIS ADAMSEL Transcript, interview 2021-05-28 Adamsel: Exactly. And I think that’s very true. Ho: So, if there is nothing else, I will stop the recording. Is there anything you want to end with before I stop the recording? Adamsel: Uh, no. I mean, I think the biggest thing is when it comes to ending, I’m very happy with the growth that the Center, Cal State San Marcos, has afforded me in my growth. I went to the university at 19. So, they’re some of the best years of growing in who I was as a leader. I think I knew who I was as a leader when I came. But through a mentorship, through role models, through networking, I think I became an even better person than I ever hoped I’d be by the time I left. And really staying connected, being able to be aligned with Black leaders, leaders of all different identities—because I used to only think I could only learn from Black people—but college taught me I could almost learn from anyone who is willing to teach, who’s willing to give out that helping hand. And it was a lovely place for me to grow. And I’m happy with the growth that I’ve achieved there. And I’m ultimately happy with the students that I’ve been able to see grow there as well and graduate. And even people that—It might not have been somebody who had their hand out for me, who looked like me when I first got to the university. But I was able to step up and get help from a lot of different people. And so, when somebody else came behind me, I just wanted to make sure okay, we continue to build that bridge and we make sure that these new students have the opportunity that wasn’t afforded to me. And even looking back to friends, Tiffany, Jamailah, even friends I met along the way, everyone was sort of like that key network to help keep Black students afloat and, ultimately, stay engaged through university and break all the barriers that we even thought were there. So, thanks to San Marcos. Thanks to the University Library. I know you all still got the mural probably in there. Ho: Yeah. Hopefully it stays there! Yeah, it’s beautiful. Adamsel: Yeah. I know. It’s amazing. But thank you for even interviewing. Ho: All right. Thanks for being part of it, Louis. Adamsel: No problem. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 24 2024-01 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adamsel, Louis. Interview transcript, May 18, 2021. Description An account of the resource In this interview, Louis Adamsel speaks on his time as an undergraduate student at California State University San Marcos, aspects of his life as a student leader, his experience as a Black student and, later, as a staff member. Adamsel discusses his advocacy for the creation of the Black Student Center and the purpose the BSC serves to students, including the necessity of having a variety of resources in order to retain underserved students. He also speaks on mentorships and partnerships, both within the Black community and across identities and spaces. This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Louis Adamsel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-05-18 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Staff California State University San Marcos -- Students Civil rights Student Success Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Moreno Valley (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Watts (Los Angeles, Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/1.0/?language=en#collection-ic">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Louis Adamsel License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-18_transcript Activists and activism Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Aguilar OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Aguilar, John. Interview May 21, 2013 WAHA-02 00:27:16 HIST-01 CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories CSUSM This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. csusm Afghan War, 2001-2021 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Twentynine Palms (Calif.) ; Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (U.S.) ; Veterans--Health aspects--United States ; Veterans' spouses ; Veterans--United States John Aguilar AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/072f64d928766dbd5dfe4c28078244fe.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview introduction Oral history interview of John Aguilar, Jr., May 21, 2013. Aguilar begins the interview by listing his dates of service and his place of service, at Camp Pendleton, California, with the HQ Support Battalion. California State University San Marcos ; Digital History ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; HQ Support Battalion ; Afghan war, 2001-2021 0 79 Enlistment and training Aguilar discusses his motivations for enlistment and his experiences at basic training and at 29 Palms, California for follow-on training as a computer systems expert. basic training ; enlistment ; follow-on training ; 29 Palms (Calif.) 0 243 Death at 29 Palms ; Afghan War Aguilar recounts the death of a sergeant during his training at 29 Palms and how it impacted him. He also recounts around the same time the beginning of the Afghan War, and seeing the attitudes and perspectives of deployed and stateside Marines change as the war progressed. Aguilar also describes the effects on service members that he saw from their deployments, and how they changed upon returning to the United States. 29 Palms (Calif.) ; Afghan war, 2001-2021 ; post-traumatic stress 0 656 Laptops and contractors Aguilar describes his work as IT support, and stress-testing laptops for combat use. Aguilar recalls the military choosing to contract with a company that offered an inferior laptop system over one that he felt was a superior machine for combat use. military contractors ; IT support 0 788 Impacts of service on military members and military families Aguilar circles back to his experiences witnessing the effects of combat service on veterans and recounts a story of a neighbor who suffered a brain injury on active duty that led to divorce. head trauma ; post-traumatic stress ; Afghan war, 2001-2021 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 0 970 Military impact on Aguilar ; Public perception of military service Aguilar speaks to the impact his service had on him and the way it has improved his circumstances. He also speaks to public perceptions of veterans and the glorification of service in our society. 0 1165 Media manipulation, racism and prejudice Aguilar offers his perspective on lessons to take away from the Afghan and Iraq wars, including governmental and media manipulation. He also talks about anti-Arab racism and prejudice against veterans, and offers his thoughts on the human capacity for division. Afghan war, 2001-2021 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; racism ; prejudice 0 1561 Honorable discharge from the Marine Corps Aguilar briefly speaks to his honorable discharge and rank reduction, and misdemeanor conviction for false official statement. honorable discharge ; rank reduction 0 John Aguilar, Jr. is a Marine Corps veteran who served from 2001-2005. In his interview, Aguilar recounts his motivations for enlisting with the Marine Corps and his experiences at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, 29 Palms, California. Aguilar also offers his thoughts and experiences regarding the trauma and changes wrought by combat deployments on veterans and their families, his work in information technology in the Marine Corps, and his perspective on the Iraq and Afghan wars, media manipulation, anti-Arab racism and societal glorification of and prejudice towards veterans.&#13 ; &#13 ; This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:06.865 --> 00:01:19.000 My name is John Aguilar, Jr. I am a former Marine, once a Marine, always a Marine. Former active duty. I am here at ca--at Cal State San Marcos. And I'm doing--participating in this WAHA project. War At Home and Abroad. And I'm giving my experience for Digital History. Um, right now I'm looking at a written account that I made here, because I don't have any questions or prompts to work with. But I served from March of 2001 to April of 2005. I enlisted in the Bronx, New York, and I served mostly here at Camp Pendleton. I was with the HQ Support Battalion of the parent unit for Camp Pendleton. So my unit wasn't deployable. When the war actually kicked off, we would just send someone out six months at a time and we would rotate that way. I never went out. My turn just never came up. 00:01:19.000 --> 00:04:03.000 Well, when I, uh, when I first enlisted, I was married with two children. I had two daughters and married my high school sweetheart. And we were just in a position where we didn't have any resources, aside from public assistance, and I didn't want to rely on that. I did face opposition. I had people telling me, you know, that I couldn't do anything else. That I had to work and work dead end--two dead end jobs, and get food stamps. And that was my option. I didn't like hearing that, and I felt that joining the military would be a good way to acquire skills and get the GI Bill so that I could actually do something with my life. So I chose the Marine Corps because I felt that it was the best of all the branches. They expect more of their members. And I didn't feel like I wanted to sell myself short. So I enlisted. I just went in one day, let everybody know. You know, I had church members telling me I was doing the wrong thing. I had my family, uh, was afraid that I wouldn't actually do it. I remember one day I came home, my wife told me that people were actually asking her if I had given up this "Marine thing." So when I heard that, if there were any doubts left in me, that drove them out. So I went through with it. I spent four months there. So I had, uh, some stress fractures in my legs. So I had to spend a month recuperating. Finished the third phase of training, which involved a lot of pain because I wasn't used to training after a month in rehab. I almost gave up just because it--it just hurt that much that I wanted to just throw the towel in, but I didn't. So anyway, I went on to become a co--a small computer systems expert. Um, I was in 29 Palms for about two or three months. And after a second trip over there for a couple months, tell you is one place I don't want to be. 29 Palms is not a nice place. The people there are not very friendly towards Marines. It's basically a desert and there's not much to look forward to there. I've heard of some people who like living there but my experience there has been horrible. 00:04:03.000 --> 00:05:05.000 I actually lost a sergeant there. I watched him, literally watched him die on his feet. He--and it traumatized me. It was the first time I saw anyone die. You know, coming from the South Bronx, it's like, I'd never witnessed that before. And, um, no, I didn't think he had passed. His body was moving. What I didn't realize was that it was just the air coming out of his body. It made it look like he was trying to talk but he was dead before he even hit the floor. And, a couple, you know, his best friend was there, another sergeant, and a staff sergeant. And they tried to revive him, but, you know, they couldn't. There was no possibility. I won't say his name, just in case his family ever sees this, I wouldn't want to bring it back to their memory. 00:05:05.000 --> 00:06:59.000 So, uh, it recently--I mean like relatively a short time after that, I--we were running when it happened. So after that, when people would say things like, you know, we're gonna run until we die, and things like that, I would freak out. I would just act like I felt like they really were gonna run until they died because that's what happened. The sergeant was running and he died. And after that, I remember one time we were watching videos--because the next day the sergeant had passed away--the very next day the war kicked off in Afghanistan. And, uh, people were sending YouTube videos of bodies, like people getting shot. And this one Arabic guy had gotten shot in this one video, and the air was coming out of his body. He was just like that sergeant, just, it looked like he's alive, but he's not. It's just the air coming out. And one of the marines with me making com--was still making comments. "Oh, yeah, look at him. He's still alive. He's still alive." You know, like if it was so cool that this guy got shot and was dying on camera, and like, I snapped at him and I'm like, "No, he's already dead! Obviously you've never seen a dead body." And, I let him know that the guy was already dead and it was the air coming out of his body. And just, I think it drove home for the people that were there that they didn't know what they were looking at. You know, it wasn't a movie, it wasn't fake. It was real. And none of us in that room had that experience of going to combat and of killing someone. 00:06:59.000 --> 00:08:38.534 One of the things that I did see recently was a presentation that Dr. (Ibrahim) Al-Marashi had on the War Against Terror. And he--one of the clips he shows was a video of a Marine being interviewed by a journalist saying that he and his friends shot someone and got a rush out of killing them, and that they wanted to do it again. And I noticed that there was no counterview presented. From some of my friends that went over there. I think that the initial attitude was one of conquest and excitement. And I think that changed though. I think it needs to be said that that changed. When people started dying, when Marines and other service members started seeing their friends blown up--for those of us who didn't deploy, news coming back of people that we worked with dying, IEDs exploding and killing people that we worked with. One--there's another sergeant--the one that I saw die? He didn't get to see his, I believe it was his daughter. He was--they were expecting a daughter, so he didn't get to see her. I mean, he died in relatively peaceful terms, you know. But another sergeant that I worked with, he was hit by an IED and he was expecting a child as well. 00:08:38.534 --> 00:10:56.715 So things like that, that we have to deal with at home, knowing that--two months ago I was working with this person and whether or not I got along with him is irrelevant. Because now he's dead. You know, whatever I felt about him doesn't matter. He has a wife that was waiting for him. He has a child that was waiting for him. People that did know him and love him were waiting for him to come back. And that would never happen, you know? So I think it needs to be said that while initially people were inappropriately excited to go to war, the reality of it eventually sank in. And that changed. The attitude totally changed. I'm sure there are those people who I were ignorant and felt like it would be exciting to go, you know, now ten years later. But the people that actually went through it, they were changed. They would, they came back differently. They, a lot of them couldn't walk by buildings. They walk around staring at windows because they're so used to having to watch out with snipers. I remember my car, the trunk, if I remotely open my trunk, a Marine happens to be walking by--you know, I'm approaching my car, I open my trunk, and they're jumping because they think something's about to happen. They're expecting an explosion or something. And I remember the first few times that I wasn't expecting that. And it was totally innocent. And I saw the reactions on their faces. So it made me realize that it had changed. The way people talked about it after a couple of years, it just, it was not that exciting, pumped up, I'm gonna go out and kill people, kind of thing. So, I just want that to be made clear, that with experience that attitude for the most part, changes. I'm sure there are exceptions. 00:10:56.715 --> 00:13:08.774 To talk about my job in the Marine Corps as a computer expert, I basically was the IT guy. Um, I had the opportunity to test one of the laptop suites that was sent out to the desert. These laptops were made, uh, just like typical laptops. I think they were just little heavier. And, it was competing with another system that would've definitely been a much better computer system for a combat zone. And I don't know who the companies that were involved, but I guess the laptop system had been purchased even though the other system was a lot better, and was suited for a combat zone. You were able to switch out parts very easily. And I really don't know why the military decided to go with that laptop system. We had to--a friend, me and another Marine--we had to work on it and debug it, come up with ways to solve the problems that were coming up in the software. We probably spent a, a week doing that. And the whole time we're sitting there just asking ourselves why would the Marine Corps want to give Marines this system? It was just full of problems. So, that's just a commentary on how we're not sending our service members out there with the best that's available. I know that whole, um, there was that whole argument going on about armor, and I can tell you firsthand, the software they were supposed to use was not the best that was available, for better or for worse. Um, I think that politics were involved and contractors were just out there to make money. I don't think they really cared about providing the best for our people. 00:13:08.774 --> 00:15:40.225 Um, and I've heard a lot of talk about the way people in the Middle East were living. And I wasn't there myself so can't really say if our presence there really made a difference or not. Because I haven't seen it firsthand. So I just won't comment on that because I really--I really don't know anything that hasn't been said in the news. I have my own opinions. I think, uh, I think that while Saddam Hussein probably did need to get deposed, I don't know if our presence there for so long was really necessary. So I just want my--in my view, I think that we really need to just scale down our presence there. A lot of people have died. A lot of people coming back injured, you know, irrevocably changed for the rest of their lives. I had a neighbor who was, uh, who was a reservist in the army, and he was unemployed at the time. He and his wife had three children. And he gets called up to go to, I believe to Afghanistan, maybe Iraq. And when he comes back, he had a brain injury. And it was to the extent that he had a British accent, even though he was American. So he comes back with this accent. His wife said that he wasn't the same, excuse me, he wasn't the same person. His personality had changed. And I remember they were my upstairs neighbor. So when I moved out of that apartment that same night, she was arguing with her husband over the phone to the extent that someone had called the police. The police thought he was in there, that they were fighting. I had to let them know, no, that's not the case. They're arguing on the phone because their marriage had devolved to the point that she wanted a divorce. And that that happened maybe in about a three to four month period after him returning. So, you know, those are the kinds of things that the war is creating. 00:15:40.225 --> 00:16:10.000 You have people who are physically maimed and injured. Marriages are falling apart, people are dying. It just--I don't think that it should be happening. You know, I think we did what we needed to do, and the governments there need to take control of the situation. And that's really how I feel about it. 00:16:10.000 --> 00:17:37.025 As far as my service in the military, I'm very proud of what I accomplished, and I was able to turn my life around. Here I am working on my master's degree, and my children have someone to look up to. And before I enlisted, I just didn't have that. I didn't have the resources that I needed to really make something of myself. But I think that people need to keep in mind that earning the title of a Marine or becoming a Soldier or a sailor or an Airman, there's still, they are still people. And I think like this glorification, hero worship, I really think it needs to get toned down because a lot of the time people are enlisting and they're not knowing what it is they're getting into, you know? You're not treated the same as most people are, in the military, and you are held to higher standards. And sometimes I think that the standards you're being held to can be unreasonable. And I think it causes people to stress out. It causes people to change and not always for the better. 00:17:37.025 --> 00:19:25.815 I think that when the public engages service members, they need to do it from a perspective of how this is a person who is maybe achieving things, and accomplishing things, and simply just getting things done because they have to, It is not that somebody goes into the service knowing what's expected of them. Because you think you know, but you don't. You don't know until you get there. I don't--I think that military members need to also keep in mind that they volunteered for service. And when they expect other people to fawn over them and tend to their every need, it's not a reasonable expectation. And I see that a lot. And I remember when I was there mentally, where I thought that I should be held in a higher regard because of my service. And the fact of the matter is: I volunteered. You know, I wasn't forced to do it. I didn't have to. It wasn't compulsory service where it's so terrible that I made it through against my will. It's not how it, how it is, you know? There were people who did more than what I did. There were people who did less than what I did. And that's in any endeavor that we take upon ourselves. I think, so I guess what I'm trying to say is I think we all need to be grounded in reality. 00:19:25.815 --> 00:21:15.365 I think that when people think about this war in the future, when we look back, I think we really need to question what's being fed to us. The government really took control of the media and censored what was sent back. Now we know we were lied to about multiple issues. And I think that's part of the problem, is that people who initially went over there thought that they were doing something really great and honorable, and that may not be the case. We can talk about spreading democracy what we want, but the people there may not have wanted that. If anything we could've tried politically to change the government. And without getting into a convoluted discussion, you know, it's just too complex to boil down to a few words, but I think we just really need to question our government's motives and not make assumptions. And especially the way people talk about Arab Americans or Arabs in general. This is supposed to be the melting pot. And our military is made up of many ethnicities and religions, and people just throw around these slurs and degrade other people like it's fine. Like it's acceptable. And that shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. Racism and prejudice should not be viewed in that light. 00:21:15.365 --> 00:22:33.000 I think as a Marine, I think that I have a duty to speak out against that kind of thing. I think that while I will defend my fellow servicemen from people who make those assumptions and try to degrade them, at the same time, I'm having to defend people who are being subjected to that by the military. Like when a service member makes comments about Arabs, I will defend the Arab community because it's the right thing to do. Not every single person from the Middle East, whether they live there or descended from their, has to anything to do with terrorism. And at the same time, you know, not every service member is a gung-ho, trigger-happy racist. Both sides of the equation are complex, and individuals all have their own views. And I think we need to remember that. I think ultimately what I, what my message would be is that we all need to remember that we're all people. 00:22:33.000 --> 00:23:46.365 The Marine Corps, the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Arabs in the countries that we have invaded, that we have conducted airstrikes, like in Libya, the governments, the--even the rebels, they're all people. You know, some people who are fighting, like American contractors down there, uh, rebels even, like I heard one story about a rebel who was captured and he said the only reason he was fighting was for a paycheck. It's like, they're not even ideologically inclined. They're just there to make a paycheck to feed their families. And a lot of our military members join to get a paycheck. So it goes beyond politics. It goes beyond politics. And I just really feel like we need to keep that in perspective. 00:23:46.365 --> 00:24:24.000 Um, so I hope I didn't sound too high-handed and I hope I didn't come across like I'm rambling. But we just need to keep in mind that people are people and wars are politics. Politicians decide that we go to war, not generals. And the people on the ground are not always there because they want to be there. 00:24:24.000 --> 00:26:01.233 And the military changed my life for the better, and not everyone is that lucky. And I met some great people who we will have lifelong friendships. And I met people who I don't ever want to hear from again, you know, and that's just keeping with my point that not everyone can be put into one framework. Ultimately we're all people, we're all individuals, we're all a composite of our experiences and education and instruction, you know? So I would just like for our service members who might be watching this, people who are thinking of joining, to keep in mind that the people that you might be down range from shooting at, getting shot at by--and I'm not saying don't defend yourself--I'm just saying they may not believe what you're being told that they believe. And you probably don't believe what they are being told you believe. I think we just need to keep that in perspective. There are many layers to any situation and war is not exempt from that. So I guess that's all I really have to say. Thanks. (video cuts and is turned back on) 00:26:01.233 --> 00:27:17.233 Okay. I'm just gonna give my rank here. I was discharged in April of 2005 as a private. I got an honorable discharge, even though my rank was reduced, I had promoted up to Lance Corporal and a legal investigation ensued, which took two years, so I couldn't get promoted to corporal. And went to the hearing and it lasted a few days, maybe a week. And the conviction came back with a misdemeanor, false official statement. Now I didn't make a written statement and I didn't make a verbal statement. The--that's just what came out of the hearing after all the evidence was heard. So even though I was reduced in rank, I still got my honorable discharge. And I discharged maybe a week after the--I served a sentence of, I believe, fifteen days or twenty days. And I discharged a week after that. So I'm Private John Aguilar, Jr. Thanks. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.xml AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/4/resources/55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aguilar, John. Interview May 21, 2013 Description An account of the resource John Aguilar, Jr. is a Marine Corps veteran who served from 2001-2005. In his interview, Aguilar recounts his motivations for enlisting with the Marine Corps and his experiences at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, 29 Palms, California. Aguilar also offers his thoughts and experiences regarding the trauma and changes wrought by combat deployments on veterans and their families, his work in information technology in the Marine Corps, and his perspective on the Iraq and Afghan wars, media manipulation, anti-Arab racism and societal glorification of and prejudice towards veterans. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-02 Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001-2021 Iraq War, 2003-2011 Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (U.S.) United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps -- Recruiting and enlistment Veterans -- Health aspects -- United States Veterans -- United States Veterans' spouses Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Aguilar, Jr. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> CSUSM Veterans Voices Latine experience Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a6843277848736469c82be27a54962ad.pdf caee1d3a111589aaef8eb8b480547558 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aguilar, John. Interview transcript, May 21, 2013 Description An account of the resource John Aguilar, Jr. is a Marine Corps veteran who served from 2001-2005. In his interview, Aguilar recounts his motivations for enlisting with the Marine Corps and his experiences at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, 29 Palms, California. Aguilar also offers his thoughts and experiences regarding the trauma and changes wrought by combat deployments on veterans and their families, his work in information technology in the Marine Corps, and his perspective on the Iraq and Afghan wars, media manipulation, anti-Arab racism and societal glorification of and prejudice towards veterans. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Aguilar, Jr. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-21 Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001-2021 Iraq War, 2003-2011 Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (U.S.) United States. Marine Corps United States. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tomme Arthur OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Arthur, Tomme. Interview August 8, 2019 SC027-044 01:09:58 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm Brewers -- California -- San Diego County. Brewing industry -- California -- History. Lost Abbey Brewing (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County. Tomme Arthur Judith Downie ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08.m4a 1:|17(6)|44(4)|71(12)|94(8)|117(10)|139(3)|172(14)|214(13)|227(11)|264(9)|284(2)|311(5)|345(12)|373(2)|393(14)|427(5)|450(16)|474(12)|493(6)|523(7)|562(8)|583(6)|616(10)|634(16)|649(12)|670(14)|698(10)|717(5)|743(3)|760(6)|779(6)|802(9)|824(12)|843(10)|860(6)|877(13)|894(13)|911(17)|930(11)|953(3)|976(2)|991(14)|1021(12)|1039(7)|1062(14)|1098(8)|1146(15)|1159(9)|1189(15)|1231(3)|1246(10)|1270(9)|1300(3)|1321(3)|1342(16)|1363(2)|1384(4)|1401(4)|1421(14)|1439(11)|1459(4)|1475(10)|1499(6)|1521(2)|1535(4)|1559(5)|1590(9)|1610(2)|1627(6)|1643(11) Undefined 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/77ba455fa57d5b0079ba70f5e57ea2db.m4a Other audio English oral history Tomme Arthur has been involved in several San Diego breweries, most notably as founder and managing owner of Lost Abbey Brewing located in San Marcos, CA. His first professional brewing position was at the short-lived Cervecería La Cruda in San Diego, California. Arthur moved to Pizza Port Brewing in Solana Beach, California as an assistant brewer. After becoming Director of Brewing Operations for the increasing number of locations, he led the chain in garnering numerous beer awards. Arthur opened Lost Abbey Brewing in 2006 to focus on his interest in Belgian-style beers. In late 2023, Arthur separated Lost Abbey from Port Brewing operations in a ‘right-sizing’ plan in response to beer industry trends. Port Brewing retained the Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles, and Kharisma brands in their portfolio and took over the San Marcos production space and closed the tasting room. Lost Abbey entered an alternating proprietorship agreement with Mother Earth Brewing to share their production space in nearby Vista, CA. &#13 ; &#13 ; In his 2019 interview, Arthur discusses his introduction to craft beer and home brewing ; entry into the profession and work at various breweries beginning in the 1990s ; founding Lost Abbey Brewing and other brewery ventures ; mentoring individuals in the industry ; and awards. &#13 ; Judith Downie: So today is August 8th, 2019 and this is Judith Downie, the Curator of the CSUSM Brewchive® with Tomme Arthur, founder and co-owner of Lost Abbey, the Hop Concept, Port Brewing, and myriad other projects that we're going to be asking about. So tell me, the purpose of this is to kind of record in one place things I've seen in a lot of places. You know, you've been very generous with your time with people mentoring and interviewing. And so this is for the Brewchive®, basically an overall history of your life experiences as a brewer, thoughts, things like that. So, we do have a list of questions here, which again I'll read them off, I may reword them a little bit and you are open to responding to them however you need. And I hope we have plenty of time that you've talked about things that maybe nobody's ever asked you. Tomme Arthur: That would be fun. JD: Yeah. So record these things for posterity. So, let's start with your background. To be clear, from what I've seen, you started home brewing in Arizona while you were in college and how did that start? TA: So I am a native San Diegan. My family's three to four generations on both sides. Went to Saint Augustine High School. When I was in high school, I decided that I really liked the English language and I wanted to study English and felt that teaching was a path that I would probably take. JD: Okay. TA: And so I fell in love with Flagstaff as a campus and community. And the school at Northern Arizona University had a really good education teaching program. So that's how I ended up in Flagstaff. When I got to school, I met a family, last name is Gardner and, and their son, Tom. And I became very close and the Gardner family really was into beer and they were sort of my mentors to beer. And they said, you know, we're going to teach you about better beer. And of course, I was only 18 at the time, but you know, I wasn't gonna say no. And they kind of pushed me in this direction of here's what better beer looks like, tastes like. American beer, imported beer, Canadian, very English, you know, all the, all the different countries where a great beer would have come from. A lot of it at that time was imported of course. JD: Right. Because really, you know, we're talking what the... TA: 1991 and 95 was when I was in school. JD: Okay. So there really wasn't much of a craft beer scene in Arizona I don't think. TA: There were very few craft breweries in Arizona. In fact, there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff at the time. We ended up having three open up in my last year of school. But there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff and at that time. There was likely to be 10 or 15 probably in the entire state. But we've got a lot of regional beers. There was a lot of beer from Oregon, Washington, Northern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado beer. So there was some American craft. But mostly from very older players, you know, Sierra Nevada Anchor, Deschutes (Brewery), big, bigger breweries. JD: And being that the craft beer scene in San Diego was still pretty young in that time period. Do you remember seeing anything from San Diego? TA: No. In fact we, we actually talk about this a lot, that prior to Stone Brewing coming into San Diego, nobody actually sent beer outside of San Diego. Karl Strauss (Brewing) had beer in San Diego at the time and packaged in bottles. But they, I don't believe much of their beer, if any, was leaving the San Diego area. So my understanding is that it really wasn't until Stone opened their doors and shipped beer to Arizona, likely maybe Nevada, you need to ask them, where they crossed the state line and perhaps were one of the original new craft breweries to actually make beer to leave San Diego. JD: Which is really interesting because I have in my pre-Prohibition research on San Diego craft brewing found Mission Brewing. They were brewing beer to supplement San Diego Consolidated Brewing, which is San Diego Brewing Company (today). They were San Diego Consolidated Brewing for a while and Arizona passed Prohibition in 1914, five years before National Prohibition and halted any shipment of even Hopski, which was a near beer Mission was brewing, into the state. They weren't even allowing that. And there was a big lawsuit and Mission Brewing lost and that was the contributing factor to the closure of Mission through that. TA: They actually lost out on a nonalcoholic or near beer. JD: Yeah. Hopski, and they didn't continue to brew that because J. H. Zitt, who was the president, the current owner of San Diego Consolidated Brewing had said ‘I will never brew anything but real beer.’ So he's the one who decided to close Mission. Because he actually owned it at the time because his father-in- law and brother-in-law, who had founded Mission, had walked away. TA: Yeah, the old San Diego stuff is really interesting. JD: Yeah, and it's a, it's an interesting kind of parallel between you being in Arizona and starting your interest in beer there and then coming back to San Diego. But I've also seen that you've noted that your favorite beers are Belgian style. What? TA: I just find them to be very unique and I think that there's, there's a pretty, I guess when I first got started in brewing in my sort of craft foundation, they were the most unique things out there. And that, that today is not necessarily the case. There's so many new producers and people that have really taken the boundaries and, and stretched them and moved them in directions. I think ostensibly under a Belgian influence or sort of what amounts to be a Belgian artistry, but there's a lot more to it these days. And I just think that if you, if you become imaginative about beer, you have to look at what the Belgians did or were doing at that time. Technique wise, yeast wise flavors, just process things. Very unconventional via what, what would amount to be a very conventional sort of brewing, you know, take four malts or take four ingredients. You can, you used a lot of water and hops and that's beer. And then you look at what they do. And it's completely different. JD: So you think the Belgians weren't constrained by the purity law that the Germans had and that's part of what led to their inventiveness? TA: Yeah, I just feel like they as a group embraced different methodologies and, and that sometimes weren't easy. And those methods at least preserved flavors that couldn't be found in beer, again, conventional beer. JD: Okay. Very interesting. So, onto your actual brewing experiences. You started home brewing? I read it was a homebrew kit... TA: So the Gardner’s bought me a home brew kit early for my graduation. So, I was gifted it in January of 1995 and that's when we started homebrewing. JD: Okay. And you didn't like the first beer you brewed? TA: The first beer we brewed, it was a black style, you know, sort of a dry Irish Guinness-style stout, but it came out very thin and didn't taste like Guinness or anything. So it wasn't, it was not a good beer. But you know, I think the expectations were high and probably should have set the bar a little lower. JD: Was this extract or all grain? TA: It was extract for sure. JD: Yeah. Because of course supplies even in the 90s, were still kind of hard to come by. TA: Yeah, we were pretty lucky there was a homebrewer outpost in Flagstaff, so there was a store that sold ingredients that we could've, we could've started in an all-grain basis. But I was living in a house with four people and it just wasn't really, I didn't have the resources to go build a full all grain brewing system, with the plastic fermenters and you know, boiling on the stove top kind of stuff was definitely where it was at. JD: Yeah, you got to start somewhere. So, then you came back to San Diego. Was that, what was the reason for coming leaving Arizona? TA: So I graduated in June or May of 1995. JD: So was this your bachelor's or your teaching credential? TA: This was my bachelors of arts in just English. And at that point I didn't really want to stay in Flagstaff and I wasn't gonna attend grad school there. So, I moved back home and so I left. And when I got home I kind of kicked around a little bit trying to figure out what I was going to do and really didn't have a plan necessarily I was able to go back and live with my parents. And you know, the only requirement was that I find a job. So, I found a job and that's kinda how I got in the downtown life. My dad had a printing business when I was growing up, so I was very, very well trained and I worked in the campus print shop when I was in school. So, I applied for a printing job in a downtown San Diego business and I was commuting, taking the trolley from La Mesa down into downtown San Diego every day. And I happened to be reading want ads, just, it was all that was left in the newspaper at that point. And stumbled upon a brew pub opening that had an ad in the paper for cooks, dishers, all that stuff in it said assistant brewer and I circled it. And I walked over the next day at lunch and applied for a job. And that was actually Cervecería La Cruda. JD: Right, with Troy Hojel? So, you actually opened Cervecería La Cruda in September of ‘96? TA: No, they, they would have opened, I think it would've been March of 96 ‘cause we ended up, we attended the great American beer festival in September, October of 96 and then it closed. It was less than a full year. I think I was hired in April, May-ish. and then I wasn't there even for a full year. JD: Yeah. I have, I have March ‘97 is when it closed. TA: So I think it probably was mid April-ish I would've been hired in. We didn't even make it a full year. JD: Yeah. This is the kind of thing I like because I have a very large Excel spreadsheet of every brewery from 1868 which was Chollas Valley Brewery through today. Whether they opened or closed, it never made it, pulled the license, whatever... TA: So, how many different breweries have attempted to open? Are we in the three hundreds or? JD: Well, my Excel spreadsheet also includes all the individual tasting rooms because generally they pull a separate ABC license. I'm up over 550 getting close to 600 I think, but I could certainly get back to you with how many tried and never even actually opened. I think there's a real object lesson there. TA: I think the most interesting thing is that we operate that there's 160 or whatever right now that are active, but it's really interesting to know kind of how many have kind of opened and closed and opened and closed and where you know, you can say, okay, since prohibition we've had 208 that have tried or participated in this, in this scene. JD: Yeah, because I break the whole history into three parts. There was a pre-Prohibition 1868 to 1919, 1919/1920 then 1933 to 1953 because Aztec, which had sold to Altes Brewing, closed and they were the last brewery operating post-Prohibition and then we didn't pick up again until the (19)80s so I can extract that information and get it to you because those numbers are always very powerful. TA: Yeah. I just feel like it'd be interesting to say since Prohibition, there's been 208 licenses that were issued or over, you know-- JD: And then there were others that announced a name or announced that they were going to open and never even got around to pulling a license. You know, so I have, I have every single possible name of any business that ever said ‘we are going to be a brewery or a brew pub, or...’ TA: No one ever drops on in front of you and you say, haven't heard of it. JD: Well actually not too long ago, I ran across one called the Royal Duffer. And that evidently they were contract brewing. They were in Carlsbad and they were like four golf buddies. And so they had beer for, again, I think it was less than a year. And I haven't been able to find out too much information from them, but I'm very alert to, ‘Oh, I don't think I've ever heard of that name before’ so this is the first one I've not heard of in a long time. So I think I'm pretty comprehensive. But yeah. Yeah, it's been interesting and a lot of work. But going back to Troy, is Troy still around? TA: He is in somewhere in Colorado outside of Denver. In fact, I just talked to him the other day. He texted me, I think his cousin opened a brewery in Texas and he had a question or two. TA: So yeah. He's in Colorado and doing the software. JD: Okay. So he's no longer in the brewing business. TA: No, actually he left the brewery business and ended up doing software in Northern California for a bit, I think, and then moved off to Colorado. JD: Well, it's gotta be sad to watch your dream die especially so quickly. TA: You know, it was a pretty aggressive life lesson, you know? It taught me a lot in the short time that we were into it. I still think that Troy is one of the best brewers I've ever met. And it would've been a really cool thing to see it succeed at, but certainly would've put me on a different life path, I think if it had. So I don't, I don't try not to, you know, revisionist history, that part of it. But the beers that he made and he was a very technical brewer, I think, I think it would've been, it would've added to the scene even more. JD: Yeah. What actually happened? Was it just lack of sales? TA: I think more than anything it was a bad, is a bad business model. I don't know if you know the story of Baja Brewing Company. JD: I'm familiar with the name, but not really the story. TA: So Baja Brewing Company opened up and they claimed to be the very first Mexican-themed brewpub in the United States. Now it was their claim to fame. But what happened is that the partners at Baja Brewing and the partners at La Cruda actually had a schism and they split. They were going to open the Baja Brewing Company together or something along those lines and they had a falling out and the partnership dissolved. And so these guys opened Baja Brewing Company and less than three or four months later Cervecería La Cruda opened up three blocks away. So the very first Mexican theme brewpub in this country opened up and three blocks later and three months and three blocks over the second one opened. So, very underfunded from the get-go. Very, it was a 13,000 square foot building at Forth and Island, you know, big, big building. Too much of it to just for the time I, I'd be nervous opening a 13,000 square foot building brewpub today. And you know, back when the Gaslamp was kind of still new and trendy and hot, I don't know what the rent was, but just overall a bad, a bad vision I think for what was going on. JD: Ahead of its time. Really. TA: Yeah. And the thing that's kind of crazy is that Cervecería La Cruda to them is a hangover brewery. So when you say ‘tengo la cruda’, that means I have the crud, I'm not feeling well. That's not a real great way to tell people you want to come here and drink. They opened up with a menu that they had sourced from the family that owned El Callejon in Encinitas. So, they had this really great, I would say deep, deep Mexican Sonoran source, you know, moles (sauces) and things. But that wasn't on anyone's radar with respect to craft brew at the time. So, good people, great, great opportunity. But not even something, that I think today, even if you attempted to tackle it, would probably work really well. JD: So as you say, a real experience. TA: Yeah, a lot I learned from, you look around and you see simplicity sometimes wins. JD: Or slow growth. Planned slower. TA: Or have more money than you think. Yeah. JD: Somebody said to me one time something like, you need five times more than you think you do. And I would, I think that's true with any business really. But the expense of equipment and materials and everything and you just can't do it all yourself. TA: No. You gotta be able to weather a lot of storms. JD: And you know, with this, I know in September of 2016 I went to the craft beer conference up in Sacramento and I saw you speak there and you at that time, this is three years ago now, said that San Diego was already over-saturated, and you would not open up a brewery at this point in San Diego. And how many breweries have we had open up? TA: Continues to be a head-scratching thing. Yeah. Well, we joke, I mean, we're here in San Marcos now. I've got three breweries within a one-mile stretch. Right. So yeah, that's just the way it is. Yeah. JD: But you're each different. Accommodating everybody at some point. But so when La Cruda closed, you moved to White Labs for just a couple of months in yeast sales. Was that based because you knew about yeast? TA: So White Labs had just kinda gotten their feet wet. So I remember the very first day when I was at La Cruda, one of the very first days I was at La Cruda. Chris White (founder of White Labs) walked in on a sales call. And so we were chatting and talking and at some point, and this is a part of my history that I don't remember all of that clearly, but I ended up moving in with them. I mean I was a roommate and I think there was a crossover point where I was working at La Cruda, but I already moved into their house. Cause he and Lisa had an empty room. I needed a place to stay. And then when La Cruda was on its way to be closing it became kind of obvious that I could help them in their infancy of their company with some just R and D and just different trialing and things like that. TA: You know, I had met a lot of brewers in Arizona at that time. So Chris said, well, why don't you come help me just kind of knock down some doors and you know, we just need somebody that can walk in and kind of talk about this in a very brewer friendly kind of way. So my goal was I was kind of like an ambassador really. You know, I didn't really do a lot of pure sales but my job was to talk about it and explain how my experience with different yeasts and temperatures and things like that. So it was kind of just yeah, I think it was more of a product, product knowledge and ambassador at that point. JD: Was there any conversation at that time about opening up a tasting room for yeast labs? TA: No. No. I mean, maybe Chris had it, but it you know, that was a pretty, it was a long time ago and there wasn't really a sense of yeast as a business outside of the yeast business. I don't think there was sort of that auxiliary layer to it. I'm sure Chris would have liked to have had a bunch of beers on tap, but I, I would imagine if he had had that thought back then that they would have probably just wanted 10 beers on tap for their customers to come sample them, but not necessarily not, not really treat it as an educational function for the consumer as much as an educational experience for a brewer who maybe hadn't worked a certain use and things like that. I mean there's just an enormous amount of yeasts that have been banked since we started. Since I got my first job in 1996 there's been an enormous amount of new yeast that had been added. So, they need an avenue to show people what those yeasts do. JD: And back then too, you probably had a lot of brewers, even professional brewers, would be how I see it. That didn't really understand a lot about the hops that were available. The yeast that was available, you know, cause a lot of them had, were coming out of the homebrew experience and you know, all of a sudden here's more stuff you need to know. TA: If you go back and look at it ‘95, ‘96 to, so that time, I mean we're talking about a dial up modem, you know, we're talking about low internet speed, we're talking about not... JD: A lot of people, not even having computers or knowing how to use it. TA: Not even a lot of Information online. Frankly. I mean you couldn't, you could not do all the kind of information that's out there today. And, and past that, a lot of the information that did exist in book format was highly technical through the ASBC (American Society of Brewing Chemists) and the big brewers. And then what was available that had been written about the sort of homebrew level and medium brewery. There wasn't a lot of medium brewery stuff in there, so you were getting a lot of books on how to brew ales, but they had this really big English, you know, sort of basis to them. Cask condition, real ale ingredients weren't American in their basis. So there was no ability to look up and say, Oh, how do I use this German hefeweizen yeast? You know, how do I, how much do I pitch it, what temperature, how does it behave? And none of that information existed. JD: So a lot of technical stuff. TA: Yeah. even just simplistic technical. What's the right temperature? JD: And around here San Diego was still something of a Coors town that's San Diego was test market for a couple of different, for Coors Light and for Herman Joseph's 1868 and you know, so really do you have much of a market for... TA: In fact, we joked about it here. This was the best, I think this was the best-selling Coors light town when I took in, when I got into brewing, this was the number one Coors Light in the country. JD: Yes, it was. TA: Well that explains to you, you know, where we're, where we were and where we came from. And on top of that you had all the import beers too, right? You still had Coronas and Pacifico and the Modelos in the world doing very well here at that time too. So yeah, it was a, it was a long ways to the top. JD: So you weren't at White Labs for very long before you were hired by Pizza Port. Pizza Port just had the one location then, right? TA: They had the one location in Solana Beach. Vincent (Marsaglia), Gina (Marsaglia) had been partners in the Carlsbad Public House with a guy named Brett. I think his last name was Stamp. JD: Tetley Ridden, I, it's a hyphenated name. (correct name is Redmayne-Titley) TA: Yeah. And then he became a, they, they had a falling out with Carlsbad Public House and they were in, they were in the process of converting the Public House, which is the Pizza Port in Carlsbad in the village into the Pizza Port at that time. So I was, I was brought into assist on Solana Beach because the head brewer was going to go have shoulder surgery and then they were supposed to move me up to Carlsbad to take over the production of the brewing and Carlsbad once, once he came back. So there was almost a second Pizza Port in line at that time. So they were, they were in the home stretch of the construction to convert it from the Public House to Pizza Port, which opened in July of 1997 so they were real close. And I always like to tell the story ‘cause I think it's very fascinating to me. I'd never stepped foot in Pizza Port before I got interviewed for the job. So I had no real perceived concept or notion of what exactly they did or what they didn't do. JD: Okay. And so you were an assistant brewer then? You weren't head brewer? TA: Yeah. Eddie Class, I think his last name was Classic. He was the head brewer at that time. And Vince was going to be the head brewer in Carlsbad when they opened. So yeah, Eddie was in charge of the brewery in Solana Beach and he was gonna go, I think I was going to have rotator cuff surgery and take about three months off. And then when he came back I was supposed to go take the job in Carlsbad. JD: Okay. but you, you obviously that didn't quite work out that way, but you were promoted to Director of Brewery Operations in June of 2005. TA: Yeah, that was a short stint ‘cause we were getting ready to open this place too. So yeah. JD: So you already knew you were going to be moving on? TA: We were having conversations at that point about how to get to here. We, I think in June it kind of was a collective. They terminated Kirk McHale, who was the brewer in Carlsbad in June of 2005 and then there was the San Clemente location, Carlsbad location, and Solana Beach. And I was asked to kind of tackle all three of them at the same time, make sure that they were more or less on the same page, collectively, kind of get them aligned. And then we also knew that we were having conversations about a new partnership and trying to build up the partnerships so that we could get this, this facility put into our orbit. JD: Okay. So that leads me into the founding Port Brewing in partnership with Vince and Gina. And you know, you have Port Brewing, you have Lost Abbey, you have the Hop Concept and I've also seen that you're involved in an Arizona brewery called Moto Sonora. So can you explain the structure of everything? TA: Yeah. When we started talking to Stone Brewing about buying this facility from them you know, my love of Belgian beers was pretty strong and I knew that we wanted to make some things out here that were very barrel aged, Belgian influenced and all that. And we had this, Vince had the idea for the brand called the Lost Abbey. So we were very, very keen on the fact that we knew that was going to happen. There were a lot of beers at Pizza Port that were being produced that needed to kind of stretch and grow and needed to get from get out from under just being a pub-based beer. And that allowed, you know, people who had been asking for more, you know, basically Pizza Port beer. And that's where the Port Brewing came from. So the Port Brewing beers, many of them when we opened our doors here came from Solana Beach recipes that I had produced, Hop 15, Santa’s Little Helper, Shark Attack. We brought the Wipe Out recipe over from Carlsbad and those beers had a lot of legacy towards the pubs and, and kind of, you know, grew them out of that realm. But we knew that there'd be the Port brand’s very West coast centric, you know, kind of that Ballast Point, Coronado, Green Flash, Stone kind of mentality. You know, higher hopping rates, you know, sometimes imperial, things like that. We always knew that that wasn't really that wasn't going to be our principal focus in the sense that we were going to have the two brands, but we also knew that having the two brands side by side allowed us to walk in and have a wide range of beers without having everything be a Lost Abbey beer or Port Brewing beer. JD: Okay. And then the Hop Concept is a fairly recent addition to the portfolio. TA: So a few years ago I walked into a bar and all the beer names on the wall really just confused me. There were so many new beers and I had no idea what they tasted like. And I didn't want to be a bother to the bartenders and try to, you know, ask them this or that. And I'm not an Untappd person. I don't really use digital media to tell me what I should be drinking. So, it kinda came back to we wanted to create a line of beers that were very fresh and simplistic in their makeup. So, the Hop Concept beers, we had a line called the Hop Freshener series and they were basically we had ‘Dank and Sticky’ and ‘Citrus and Piney and ‘Lemon and Grassy’ and ‘Tropical and Juicy’. And it was essentially taste and smell. And we, all we were trying to do was tell the consumer and the bartender, this is what you should expect the beer to taste like, or smell like. And it was a quick, straightforward deliverable and it was meant to be a, I use the word simple, but simple deliverable like you knew what you were getting. We were setting you up to understand how that beer should taste and behave. JD: Yeah, it does seem like naming beers because they do have to be registered names or whatever, becomes a bigger and bigger challenge. And in just looking at a name on the board, you frequently have no idea of what that beer really is. So, something like this where you're going back to the basics, this is what you're going to get. I think must be very attractive. TA: I thought so. I thought the cleanliness of it for us, which was just straightforward and nomenclature and deliverable, like this is this is what you can expect and... JD: Your label designs are very clean and very clear. Where Lost Abbey looks much more European, Medieval in a lot of ways. TA: And we went out and we went out and hired a firm for the first time to really, we told them this is what our vision is and this is why we're doing it this way, but we want you to make sure we produce this with a very crisp look to it. And they, they certainly executed that and I, and I think that's always been a strength of that brand. JD: Yeah. Let me ask you a little bit about the latest venture, Moto Sonora. I read that this was evidently your college roommate you are in partnerships with and his younger brother. And, of course, this is taking you back to Arizona. TA: It is. Tucson, not Flagstaff. I wish it was in Flagstaff, but I'm going to come to like Tucson cause it's closer. But yeah, my, it's kind of ironic because this was a random sort of thing back when, when I was in college with Jeff. Jeff really wasn't a big beer drinker but it turns out but his brother Jeremy really fell in love with craft beer and the two of them kind of decided that they have a high value for the city of Tucson. They loved that area. They've got deep roots in the community there. Their family, the DeConcini family's been a, been a big part of the Arizona scene and they just wanted to do this project. And I started talking to them as a consultant and just kind of saying, let me, let me hear what you're thinking. And then they said, well, maybe you could spend some more time on it. And I said, yeah, I've got the time to do that. TA: Let's, let's do this. So, I am coming in as one of the co-founders on that project. Port Brewing is not involved in the sense that we're not invested in it. JD: That was a question I had. TA: We're not, Port Brewing is not an investor in the company. Although I have permission with my partners to supply as many ingredients and things, you know, that we can, we can work to make sure that the beers there are at the highest, you know, sort of capacity. And if it means we're buying the hops and selling them hops and things like that, that's gonna happen. You know, I see it as potentially a training ground where if one of our brewers wants the position when we get going or they, you know, we want to move people out that way. But this is not anything more than a co-founding situation where I have the freedom to go tight, you know, take on other projects. I, I kind of liken it to chefs having multiple locations or bar owners having, you know, other projects and things. But I'm not moving to Tucson and I'm not going to be the head brewer there. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to establish what we're doing and push the company in the right direction and make sure that we become a really valuable part of that community. We've been definitely looking forward to the, just being involved in it and you know, a different beer scene at the same time. JD: Well, this kind of jumps over some of the questions I have because it leads into the amount of mentoring and work with newer brewers and the collaborations you do with the more established brewers. You are renowned in the industry for how people can come to you and pick your brain and you support and mentor in so many different ways. I see you as a one-person campaign to ensure craft beer success. And, and this is in comparison with efforts like Stone's True Craft where there were more financial assistance. Have you always been a remarkable mentor? It sounds kind of like, you know, you're, you're thinking to become a teacher. TA: Yeah. I think that's a big part of it, right? It's a, it's a sense of, you know, that shared piece. You know, I remember very, very early in my, in my Solana Beach days, I wanted to make a Saison-style beer and I needed to find somebody who could give me the answer for how much ginger I was supposed to put in the beer. Cause I wanted to make the beer with some ginger. And there weren't many places where I could turn to. And I picked up the phone one day and I called the owner of Left-Hand Brewing Company, his name was Dick Doore. And I said, Dick, you guys have this amazing Juju, ginger pale ale. I love it. Would you be willing to share that information with me? And he did. And he, you know, and we'd barely met. And it was one of those things that, okay, yeah, that's how the industry works. Right. And you know, this is something that I think Troy had put in my head back in the day was like, there are the right people to be talking to and then there's the wrong people. And the wrong people are the ones that don't freely exchange the information, or they don't, they don't try to push it uphill. And for the longest time we had so much work to do in this town to push the level uphill that we collectively had to talk about it. I mean, everybody I think that you would interview would have the similar sense of if we didn't all work together then we wouldn't have gotten to where we were. JD: Isn't that the principle behind the San Diego Brewers Guild? TA: Of course, you know, the very first Guild meeting was out at La Cruda. So yeah. Yes, for sure that the Guild, you know, I think we were the very first city in the country to have its own brewers guild. And that, that's kind of a, you know, a feather in the cap for what I think, you know, the old, the old guard or the people that really did, you know, hunker down back in the day was that there was a true sense that there was going to be something really good about the scene here. But we had to work really hard at it. So, I've always liked that conversational aspect of it. I believe that I can, I can ask the right questions with friends and people and, and if I can turn around and get that information back out, it makes sense. So yeah, why not? I mean, there's, there's very little, I guess I don't feel very competitive or threatened by it by that, you know, that dialogue or that sharing of information. JD: I think that's, I mean, I, I'm on certain, like the San Diego Plexus Facebook group and stuff, and your name comes up and everybody says, Tomme Arthur, he's the person to talk to. He is the god locally, you know, I mean, your name is always used in very positive way, which I think really speaks to the efforts that you have put into the community and supporting, especially newer brewers, but also working with other established brewers and not treating it as competition but treating it as we can all be better. TA: And I think the one thing that's kind of maddening these days, and this is, this is my personal soap box, is that there's a lot of people that are collaborating on things. And I'm, I'm very concerned about this new sense of collaborating because I don't know that it's doing much other than it's bringing people together. And then you say, well what did we change and what did we do? And I'm like, okay. But I think the collaborative narrative of old was we collaborated on something because it was going to be something demonstratively different than we could have done singularly. And I'm not sure that much of that's going on today. So, when we collaborate with an old guard or with someone new, we're, we're really trying to have a sense of purpose. And I hope that people continue to realize that just collaborating with someone for the sake of sales isn't always, I guess from where I come, from isn't always the best course of action. JD: Again, going to your mentoring, have you had the opportunity to open doors for specific groups? And I'm thinking women or minorities or people with disabilities, people, you know, because the standard concept of a brewer is a male, white guy, you know, I mean that just still is. It's not that way anymore. But have you had opportunities to work with or speak to groups to encourage them? TA: I was thinking about this the other day because you know, I look at our staff, it is generally mostly male. We have had a few female employees on the beer side in the past and they've been phenomenal employees. And I was thinking the other day that we haven't done enough in our world to cultivate that specifically. And I know the Brewers Association is pretty keen on promoting diversity and things these days. And I'm wondering as an educational mentor, et cetera, where I should be looking to do some of those things or how I get involved in that. You know, where, where can I be impactful in that, in that space. And I don't know if it's through the university or through, you know, there's a big Latino population up here in San Marcos and Vista. But clearly, you know, being white and being white isn't always the best thing. With respect to trying to, you know, we've got to find new, new people to energize and really enthuse about what we do. And preaching to the 40-year-old male white choir isn't, isn't the best place to live in. JD: Well, I don't know if you're aware of Border X (Brewing), which is of course down in Barrio Logan has, is sponsoring a women's beer club called Mujeres Brew Club. I'm sorry, I, my Spanish isn't that swell. And they invited me to be their first speaker and they're doing a meeting each month on a different aspect and at the end they are going to brew a beer at Border X. And the women that are in there, many of them don't know even beer styles. I mean, one woman evidently asked the question, what's an IPA? And so, you know, and it's, it's a safe space for women and it does have a large number of Latina women, which I think is phenomenal because maybe some of these will become brewers and there are women are working in the beer industry in San Diego who are also members. Some of them are speakers and some are just attending the meetings because they're always eager to learn more. So maybe reaching out to, or you know, helping sponsor a group like that or Pink Boots Society (international organization for women and non-binary people in the fermentation industry. The first chapter was founded in San Diego.) of course, you know, is always looking for speakers and educational opportunities and things. But you know, there's a growing presence, but it is hard to, when women are so scattered or you know, like you say it's underrepresented with the minorities or you know, and there are certain positions that probably someone with a physical disability couldn't perform in a brewhouse, what could they do? Can they be the quality control people, things like that. So, it seems like there are places that we need to increase. TA: Yeah. It's interesting because I was thinking about this again the other day. I was like, we just don't have that many women apply for jobs. It's, it's you know, I, you know, I have a, a fairly good amount of men working, you know males, working on the floor. But I can't remember the last time I saw an application come in for a brewing position from a woman. So somehow the outreach needs to get further than, you know, I'm talking entry-level packaging jobs, things like that. There's, there's clearly, you know, there's, it's not a bias in our world. They're just not coming and knocking down our door. So somehow we have to convince them that this isn't, this is a pretty good place where they could, you know, they can, they can find careers and homes. JD: Well, if you do want to advertise positions, I have a couple of resources. I can push things out to Pink Boots San Diego for one. And then there's another Facebook page of women interested in beer. Some are working in the industry ; some are maybe looking to get into the industry. And of course, maybe pushing the word out to the EngiBeering® program at Cal State San Marcos. ‘Cause there are, there's at least a couple of women enrolled in that program. But yeah, it's hard because there aren't many women available to bring in. But then, you know, we do have a, you know, a fairly strong Hispanic population in this area. So, you know, why can't we leverage that? And it's finding those points of contact. That's a, that's a continual problem that I have seen. Also, to kind of jump back, I mentioned Stone's True Craft effort, which, you know, obviously died. It was a great idea to help small, small breweries with financing to where they didn't have to sell themselves to big beer. What did you think of that idea when you thought, heard of it? TA: You know, I had a lot of friends that took meetings with them. I mean, at least on the surface I was told, you know, Hey, we've, we've gone and talked to them about it. I think the biggest challenge was, is that that was at a time when there was a lot of unrealistic expectations about valuations and what, what things were worth or how, how long term, you know, how companies would be out, people would work long term together. You know, it's an interesting model because this business is such a, almost a loner thing. Like most people open their own little brewery and then at some point you need more investment in that comes with a lot more triggers and kinds of parameters and stuff in some small breweries never outgrow the small, you know, model. They, I'm the single proprietor, not me. They are a single proprietor, ownership kind of environment and you know, they borrow money from the bank and that's what they get and that's what they want to be. You know, there's a very passionate pursuit for them. And then there's the big business side of it, which says if you're going to scale and grow and you know, buying equipment is not cheap and putting concrete in the ground and copper piping and just every single thing you could think of. JD: And the length time it takes to just deal with all the permitting within the city, within the state, with the ABC (California’s Alcoholic Beverage Control agency in charge of licensing alcohol production, distribution and sales.) TA: And the regulatory. Yeah. All of those pieces. So I applaud Greg for, and Steve, for putting the platform together. You know, the, I think the biggest hurdle for a lot of people is just how, how do you entrepreneurially sign up for something like that? Right? It's, it's, you know, it's a different, it's a different (unclear) in you. You're talking about an environment where you went from being in charge of your own facility to now having new investment that comes with different, again, different triggers and things. I think it's interesting cause nobody signed up to do it and I don't know if that was that the metrics didn't align or how that was. But I know a lot of people took meetings and so I guess the question is, is what, what was, what was unrealistic on both sides for, for that, how come it, how come they didn't get anybody to, to partner with? JD: Yeah. I'm, I don't know who took meetings, but it would be interesting to talk to them to ask them why they didn't pursue that, and did they find an alternative that worked better for them. So that's on my list of things to do. Since we've mentioned big beer, have you ever been approached by big beer with an offer to purchase you or to work with them in some sort of way? TA: No. In the 13 years that we've been open no one has put an offer sheet on the table and said, we want to buy you for XYZ dollars or otherwise. We have met with some family offices, venture people, people, you know, my thing is we'll take any meeting just to say hi. Mostly to learn about what people are looking for, what they're doing. But pretty emphatically we've never actually been offered, no one's ever actually offered to purchase us in, in a minority capacity and majority otherwise. So no. JD: Good. I won't ask you what your response would be, but do you think that maybe partly it's because, I don't want to say you do extreme beers, but you do less run-of-the-mill beers in many cases that might just be something that big beer would not find attractive. TA: If we live in a fringe world, we're, you know, we're sort of known as a super-premium producer and we have a lot of niches that we feel from barrels and sour. You know, they've, big breweries have a need in sometimes to do that, but they, they, I think they've found those elsewhere and they want scale and they want all kinds of things. You know, San Diego is an interesting model, right. We had Ballast Point sold, you know, Green Flash had sold and we've had a lot of big, bigger companies come through and, and, and have taken investments. And so I don't know if there was any real need beyond, I think big beer came and found what they needed from San Diego. I'd be surprised if, if there's any big beer-ness left in San Diego. I mean, I say that, and you know, we'll see. But you know, I, I don't, I don't really feel like that the big beer is kind of be knocking down the doors in San Diego anytime soon. JD: They got their toe in. TA: Potentially because of the desaturation and just some of the difficulties that they might experience. ah, it's a, it's a whole, it's a whole run of things and it really has to do with, you know, where can they, where can they scale and where can they find their return on their investment and things like that. JD: Yeah, no, that's what they're looking at is a bottom line. TA: It is 100% about how much can they make on what they're buying it. Yeah. JD: Because your beers are not run of the mill Coors-type beers, not to bash Coors, but just, you know, as an example, where did you get your early inspirations? I mean, you, you said you like the Belgians and you were exposed to a wide variety of European and, and what craft beer was made in the US. But things like oak aging and sour beers, were those things that you were exposed to early on or were those things that you found out later while you were experimenting? TA: Yeah, it was early. I remember, I remember my first Chimay Red. I remember my first Guinness and I vividly remember the very first Rodenbach I ever had. And I, you know, the Rodenbach I think hit me more than anything else in that really portend, you know, that really does explain why, you know, like, Oh my God, that's okay. I know there's weird beer out there, but this is way to the left, right? This thing is way, way downstream from anything I'd had at that point. You know, I was, when on the four years I was in college, I was sampling a lot of beers and then I continued to continue to buy beer. And, and it's just when you get one that's put in front of you and you say, wow, how did they do that? And that was kind of the, the aha that was the light bulb, I think was, was that first Rodenbach. That somebody who's living in a world where that, that's so to the extreme and delicious. But why can't, why can't I, why can't I think about beer like that? And that's, that definitely pushed me in that direction. JD: Well that's great to have such an open mind. Do you remember who, if anyone else was doing things like barrel aging and sour beers or anything when you started doing it? TA: Vinnie (Cilurzo, founded Blind Pig Brewing in Temecula, CA before moving to Northern California to found Russian River Brewing.) and I joke about this a lot cause Vinnie at Russian River and I are pretty good friends and a lot of it comes back to when we first picked up oak barrels and really got into that, you know, late 19, late 1990s, you know, the first batch of cuvée that we were making and they were making beer called Temptation. There was very little of that going on and I knew Belgian had (inaudible. in the market. But out West there weren't a lot of people making sour beer in barrels. And so we had to just kinda kick the can on how to do it. Talk collectively. Again, it got back to, we were not we did not, you know, you know, withhold the secrets. And we talked a lot about the what ifs and things and that I think was a big, big part of the success was just, okay, how are we going to do this in this environment? Because again, you couldn't open a book and read how to do it. Today you can open plenty of books. JD: Or just find it out there on the web. TA: I mean, you pick up the phone and call someone, but then back then it isn't, you know, how do you manage your barrel program or what do you, how do you do this? It was, well, I'm going to try, I'm going to try this. Okay. That sounds like that. That seems reasonable to me. JD: Oh, so you can't think of anybody specifically locally though? You, I mean, Vinnie, to me, is still local as they were nearby-- TA: For sure, it’s California. JD: but I'm thinking in San Diego. TA: You know, I don't know if we, I always say we, being Pizza Port. I don't know if we were the first ones to make intentionally sour beer in San Diego. I don't recall running into it anywhere at that point. But for the sake of clarity, I never say we were the first ones because I truly don't know. There was some oak aging going on the guys at Rock Bottom (Restaurant and Brewery) in La Jolla specifically ‘cause I got barrels from them. AleSmith (Brewing Company)I think was right about that same time, ‘97, ’98-ish where they were getting into having some bourbon barrel kind of things going on. JD: But that was Skip (Virgilio founded AleSmith Brewing and later sold to Peter and Vicky Zien.). TA: Skip doing that. There was not a lot of sour beer in California at that point. So, or even San Diego can that I can recall. JD: I’m glad sour beer’s around. Okay. You just mentioned cuvée. And I've seen it said that that is your favorite beer. TA: Perhaps. JD: Yeah. Perhaps. TA: It’s the only one that bears my name (Cuvée du Tomme). How's that? JD: That's true. That's true. On the other hand, is there a beer that you ever made that you didn't care for, but everybody else said, no, we've got to put this on tap. TA: Ooh, that's a damn good question. JD: Did they, did it actually sell well? TA: There is a running joke here at the brewery. We made a beer a few years ago called Spontaneous Cheer. And the Spontaneous Cheer was a peach sour and it was actually spontaneously fermented. So we, we've got some spontaneous fermentation barrels and things that we do from time to time and we have a large library of barrels. We have over a thousand oak barrels full of now and we made this batch of beer and it tasted pretty darn good. That being said, I struggled with it personally because it didn't really manifest our house culture. We have a very strong sour beer sense. Like there's a terroir in our world. You can taste the Lost Abbey beer and it's white grapey and it's stone peach fruit. And you can tell that there's something about the way that we blend in and package. And that beer had none of it, even though it was a peach beer. But that's because all of the cultures came from the spontaneous portion. And so, people were like, you have to release this beer. And I can't in good conscience release it because you could open it in a tasting room in Texas and you'd have no idea it came from us and what's the point of that? So that's probably the one in this environment that had garnered a lot of energy I would say, okay, that's not what I was, didn't hate the beer, just wasn't keen on it. Bearing the name Lost Abbey being sour and didn't, didn't exude us. JD: And so you have not brewed it again since. TA: No, we haven’t. Even though we likely could, and people would freak for it, but it doesn't, again, it gets really to the point of, you know, we're really trying to have that identity in a big sea of imitations. I would think that that was probably a one-and-done. I'd be surprised if it came back. JD: Okay, if I ever see an unopened bottle of it, I'll know that that's truly special. TA: So we never bottled it. That's the only bottle that I think, I mean it was, it was literally only one oak barrel, so 50 gallons. But I think we only bottled it. I had a friend who had a baby and there was a request, but I, there shouldn't, there shouldn't be any bottles of that out in the world. There are, they probably aren't real. JD: Yeah. Well, we'll know that they are shams. What was your very first award for brewing? TA: That's a good question. JD: You've had so many. TA: I know like, let's see. We had strong ale in 19... Well, okay. The very first award that I know for certain was the gold medal that I participated in at La Cruda. We won a gold medal (awarded at the Great American Beer Festival) for the Makanudo Porter, but that was not my beer and I was not the recipe generator. So I would say probably a beer that we brewed at Pizza Port and that was part of the Strong Ale Festival in ‘97 or ‘98. And then at that point we started entering the Real Ale Festival in Chicago or some California State Fair stuff. We did not win a GABF (Great American Beer Festival.) award until 1999, 2000. JD: Shame on them. TA: It took me a little while to figure out where our beers sort of fit in the competitive landscape. JD: The pantheon of beers. TA: So once I figured that part out, we got on a roll pretty, quickly. JD: That does seem to be a little bit of a challenge cause I'm a member of the Society of Barley Engineers when they talk about submitting for homebrew (competitions). Sometimes there are quite intense discussions about where a particular beer, that somebody’s having everybody sample, what category that fits into. And you do then deal with judges’ taste buds. Which, you know, it's a constantly moving landscape. TA: I’ve been a GABF judge since ‘99-ish. And that has afforded me an enormous amount of opportunities to watch the process, participate in it, and even potentially piss off brewers and people who maybe didn't, you know, like the way that it went. It's fascinating to watch the competition evolve at a table relative to the dialogue, the strength of the judges, the opinions of the judges. Even just the sheer age of the, the judging has come from, there were only this block of people that used to do it and now it's expanded and now the categories have morphed and they're different. And the, you know, we talk about it a lot because it's, it's interesting to see how difficult, first of all, there's so many more beers, but the sheer, the sheer perspective that people are operating under relative to, I've had these style beers or I've never been think about, okay, I'm supposed to judge a Kölsch-style beer, but I'm a judge and I've never been to Cologne and had the six beers from there that are the, that are the standards. Well, how do you judge that? Like that's, that's a, it's an interesting scenario because you're being asked to read this against what was written, how this is how a standard should taste. Yet. You've never been in situ and had that environmental condition. JD: Right, with that terroir and all everything else, all those factors that work into it. TA: 100 percent. I do agree with you that there's, one of the things about entering competitively is that there's so many different places beers can fit and sometimes it's really environmentally like time and place. Sometimes the beer exudes more oak and sometimes it doesn’t, and it wants to be in an oak category, but it can't cause it has brett (industry jargon for Brettanomyces, a fungi used to sour beer.) We did a sampling a couple months ago back in early July and I think we went through 20 different beers for GABF trying to get down to the five that we wanted to send. And in order to do that we had to kind of pick the beers. We'd, you know, we brought out all the beers that we thought were really well done and then we had to go say, well that would fit here, wouldn't fit here, but it probably fits best here, but we don't want to send that beer there because we already have another one that wants to go there. So, you don't wanna compete against yourself either? JD: Now are you limited to five beers for competition? TA: Of late? They've been in the four to five range. Okay. A few years ago, you could send up to eight and prior to that it was kind of unlimited. But when it went from eight to five it got a lot harder. JD: Yeah. But it just seems like, I mean you can see what thousands of entries that seems like and yeah-- TA: I think there's over 8,000 beers that'll be judged. But we always say this, it's like if, if back when we were going to sending eight beers, I don't know if we make eight world-class beers every fall. Right? So how many are really well done and how many of them are like, you know, that far up the channel. I think we make eight great beers but are they going to sit at the table and really, really compete. But I think when you have eight versus four, your odds are better. But perhaps being in categories that some, some years are strong, and some years are weak, is, is where it kind of comes from. JD: Yeah. But you're also trying to be selective. I'm sure there are people that “I'll send as many beers as I can to increase my odds of winning an award.” Because of course the GABF awards still mean a lot. TA: Yeah. There was a year, I know this to be true, where at least one or two breweries that don't need to be, and they're not from San Diego, sent somewhere between 30 to 50 beers. And didn't win an award. And these are pretty good breweries. So, you know, you're talking about the shotgun approach. You hit the side of the barn. But it was pretty interesting to see that they didn't win. You know, the years of late where we haven't, we haven't managed to win an award. You know, we look up and we talked to the guys and we say, you know, look at the breweries that didn't win. Like, you know, these are, these are still some, you know, solid, solid producers and congratulations to the ones that did. But yeah, there's no guarantee anymore. I mean, winning one is a pretty dang good achievement. JD: Yeah. Well then in some cases, like just recently, what happens to the beer while is being transported? It could completely knock a perfectly good beer that left here out of any consideration because what happens to it or it doesn't even get there. TA: Yeah. So we've tried to mitigate that as best we can. Where the consolidation point and we have been for a long time that helps with refrigeration and, you know, just really making sure that the beer is better taken care of, competitive, you know, competitive judging or, you know, competitive brewing. I would say this is far different than it was 10, 15 years ago. JD: I guess for good and for bad both. But back to your awards, is there any award that you have one that is the most meaningful to you? Not to discount the other awards. TA: Sure, I think two really come to mind. The, we've been lucky to win a (GABF) Brewery of the Year award four different times. And I'm, I'm personally, I really want to get to five. I want to have that. I want to have that, that last one on the, you know, in that, you know, if I, if they gave out rings, I want to have the handful. The last time we won was 2007, so it's been a long time. And we may never get that opportunity again. I think the one that I won last year, which was the Russell Schehrer Award for Innovation and Craft Brewing, that that's you know, that's a hall of fame landscape kind of thing. And it just speaks to the community involvement and the, you know, being, being a participant in this, you know, only 22 people have won it at that point. And I, I, yeah, the legacy award, you know, something like that. I mean, I, I still love, I love the GABF and World Beer (Cup) Awards, a couple of awards cause they're, you know, they're purely blind. They're your peers. They show your team that they're, you know, they're making the right decisions. But the Russell award was probably the one that was singular in the sense that that was, you know, personally with my name on it. Where it's almost every other award that we've had that we've been lucky enough to garner comes with somebody else, you know, participating in doing work in that regard. JD: Yeah. Okay. Well, very good. So, we're just about at the end of all my questions, from your experience, is there anything in the way of advice or a lesson you've learned or anything else that you think either can't be said enough or you haven't ever had the opportunity to say? TA: You know, I think that we were talking yesterday, it's kind of interesting. We were talking about how difficult this business has become and there's a lot of noise and chatter and 50 years from now when someone's looking at this, they'll say, wow it's not as easy as it used to be. And I don't know where the fall line's going to be. We're going to get to 10,000 breweries in this country. I don't doubt that that'll happen. And I don't know where, where the relevancy will be. I don't know what it will look like. I feel pretty strongly that in the time that I've been lucky enough to be in this business, a lot of what's made us successful has come from a very strong sense of this is the beer I want to produce. And nowadays there seems to be a lot of, you have to just do what the consumer is saying they want. And tons of breweries I think are kind of losing their way, respectful of an identity. And I don't know if the artist in me can, can sort of reconcile that for the long haul. I think there's this sense that if, if that's the way the industry is going, you know, is that what I signed up for? Part of me wants to see the consumerism shift and I, I talk about this a lot, but it's kind of like when you throw the boomerang out, it comes back a little slower than it went out and maybe the boomerang is coming back. You know, that there's just too much ubiquity right now. But maybe not. Maybe with 10,000 brewers, you just, there is ubiquity and that's just part of the nature of it. But you know, I think the success that I've had, you know, in this business has been built on beers that, that, that have something that look and tastes like things that I've, you know, imagined and there's been a lot of success for that. But I don't know how you continue to do that when there's 10,000 imitators and people trying to, trying to find the same sort of, you know, sense of their worth. So for me, I think the biggest thing moving forward is just where, where do we all fit in? It's just dense stuff. JD: Giving everybody a chance to attain their dream. But yeah, you know. TA: Yeah. I think that we're going to see, I think in the next two years we're going to see a lot of dreams getting crushed because it's getting, it's getting even harder today than it was probably a year ago. But there might be a light at the end of the tunnel in the sense that, you know, there's been a lot of distributor consolidation. There's been a lot of breweries, what they say, you know, rightsizing or trying to figure this all out. But it's a business. It's gonna eat people alive, you know? And, and that's what businesses do, right? There's, there is this, there's, there's a success rate attributed to craft beer that's not as high. I mean, it's higher than most consumer goods, and there will probably be a little bit more reckoning that will come along with it because you just can't, you just can't all swim in the same ocean. It just doesn't work. And so we're going to find some sense of corrective correlations. I mean, we're going to find smaller, you know, people are going to be making less beer for the next few years and if you're actively making more beer, you're one of the very few people that's, that's winning in that, in that space. JD: It does seem like we had a real bump up in numbers of breweries that opened in 2016-2017 which is being that this is 2019, we're looking at entering the fourth and fifth year of leases for a lot of the breweries. And I think that might be a time where people are going to have to sit down and assess. TA: Sure. I mean, if you've got a five-year lease and you're about to come into that fourth year, you're in the fourth year and you're now triggering the, am I going to renew? Right. I haven't, I haven't been taking a paycheck or I've been taking very little. And then at some point you're like, are we, is this a real thing? You know, I don't, I don't know. You know, people, people certainly I think come into it, you know, really, you know, eager and excited about it. And then little by little you're, you're grinding and there's a lot of grinding going on right now, which is okay, but you know, there's, but grinding isn't fun. JD: No. And when people come into it with a passion, which is a term you used earlier, passion cannot sustain you forever, unfortunately. I mean, it's what maybe gets you up the next morning, but at some point it's not paying the bills and you have managed to raise a family, you know, other people, you know, that they've got investors that may or may not understand the actual brewing industry and cause and effect and impacts. And, you know, yeah, it's going to be real interesting to see what happens. TA: Yeah. I've been pretty lucky. My partnership here hasn't had an unrealistic expectation of financial return. And, and you know, so, you know, we, we opened our doors, we borrowed some money, we repaid the money, and then we've basically reinvested all of that money into the company when we needed to. So we are not sitting here saying okay, you're, you know, you were relying on us for a dividend. And you know, that doesn't, it doesn't work like that. But the, the business of beer is very difficult. And you know, you, you talked about that word passion. We, when we opened our doors, I published this list of the 10 commandments of our brewery and one of the 10 commandments was that you, you know, passion isn't something you can buy at the corner store. And I meant that with a sense of like, if you come into this, you know, you can't just throw that term around. Like you've got to live it and breathe it. And I think that that kind of what you were speaking to earlier is, is, has always been like, I think there's a lot of people that will say, I am very passionate about what I do. And I have been, and that's, you know, over the 20 plus years I've been doing this. That's that, that is a word that I would associate with, with getting out of bed every day. And it's been very, it's been very conducive to being successful. That being said, you don't have to be overly passionate, but you have to be, you still have to be passionate about getting out of bed every day, even when you're struggling, even when you're not killing it. And I can guarantee you right now, there's a lot of people when they're getting out of bed who used to kill it and were, you know, who thought they were going to kill it and are saying to themselves, man, this is, this is real. Like, and you know, how do you, how do you put your game face on and, and, and really keep, keep grinding and to tackle the, you know, look, we want to get to the other side. JD: Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to be a long face when your consumers come in because they're going to say, Hey, I came in here for a beer and a good time. TA: I am here. I am here for a good time. Right. Any happy people? JD: Oh dear. Oh dear. Something that just came to me, which is not on the list of questions, but we are sitting in the space that Stone originated at. And you had just mentioned that you've expanded. Talk a little bit about the physical plant. What was it like when you moved in as Lost Abbey? What did you have to do to it and how many times have you expanded? TA: All right. So, when we took over in January of 2006 and Stone moved out to the facility in Escondido, they controlled at that point about 30,000 square feet of I think the building is 85,000 square feet. So, they had about a third of it. And when they moved out, we collapsed the entire building back down to their original suite, suite 104, and that suite is 7,500 square feet. So, we started with a 30-barrel brewhouse in 19, I'm sorry, in 2006. And we had 30, 7,500 square feet, including the tasting room, cold box, and our barrel warehouse. In 2009, I believe we moved across the parking lot and took over another 10,000 square feet and moved the cold box, all the barrels and our distribution. So, for awhile we had that space. We were up to about 17,000 square feet. 2012 or so we took over this suite that we're sitting in here, which was another 7,500 square feet. So that allowed us to build our packaging hall, this office, the lab, things like that. We rolled for the next few years, for the next five years. We had that 27,000 square feet of space. And then we added we added a second, third, fourth warehouse across the parking lot. And that took us to almost 40,000 square feet. And then last January we moved out of that distribution warehouse into another building here, which is now connected from the front of the street to the back. Behind us. We control 40,000 square feet under one roof line for the first time. And we moved out of the facility across the parking lot, all of our barrels and everything. So we now are under one building, one roof line. We can't drive from the packaging hall to the rest of the building. But every other building we can drive forklifts through. And that never happened. Two years ago, we owned four (forklifts) ‘cause we had four different buildings. JD: Now does Port distribute all the beers here in San Marcos? TA: Everything comes out of this facility. We are doing a batch or two a year out of the Pizza Port facility when we need to, but we don't, it's this, this facility can handle a lot more beer than we're currently making. So most, most everything that has the word Port Brewing, Lost Abbey, or Hop Concept on it has come out of San Marcos. It's only been this year that we've brewed two or three batches of beer down the street at Pizza Port. And most of that was for efficiency to do big runs of things that we could, we did a giant Hop Freshener, Hop Concept release at Costco and needed to have beer all at the same time. JD: So are you, in Costcos outside of California as well? TA: No, and that has been something we haven't really tackled or looked at. JD: Like it would be just an overwhelming amount of production yet I think... TA: Costco's pretty, pretty keen on a lot of local these days, at least for beer. So, I don't know how relevant we would, you know, we might be able to get into some in Arizona, maybe in Washington and Northern California, but you know, there's a ton of breweries in each of those locations. Tapping the same buyer on the shoulder saying, can I get, can I get in here? And, and the buyers probably got enough options that they don't even need something from out of here. And frankly, the cost associated with getting it to them would almost make it prohibitive in terms of trying to put it on the shelf at their right price point. JD: Yeah. Have you ever had to turn down any kind of requests because you just knew that trying to fill that big an order was going to just break you? TA: No, we've, we've been pretty lucky in the sense that when we do get we just came off of couple of pretty good-sized Costco orders and they were about 40 pallets worth of beer. But the brewery can handle that without being too burdened in the sense. I mean, it's certainly a lot of attention on one thing but we're not overly stretched at our capacity right now. So, when those things pop up, we certainly snap at them and want, you know we wanna make sure we execute on it. If we were making a lot more beer, we probably would have, we would struggle with that a little more. But when you get an order for 40 pallets of beer, you figure it out, you know, you really do. JD: When we walked back here, we passed one of your employees building a bike. What other sorts of things do you do with the employees or for the employees to support maybe their self-education, other interests that they have, things like that. TA: We've definitely put it on our radar this year. We've lost a lot of employees in the last two years. I think we've turned over 20 employees and we only have about 50 total. So, we've put an emphasis on that level of communication, you know, what can we do to assist you in this endeavor? It's not something that we've programmed in the past or been terribly good at. That being said, we haven't, we have really seen that there are some simple opportunities to do things like that and Tim's running his own small bike shop and it's just a, you know, it's a pocket, pocketed space here at the brewery. You know, we've announced that if there's other brewer or other brewery employees from the tasting room all the way up that have an idea, we would love to hear about it. We don't make a dime on it. There's no, there's no real emphasis towards, you know, trying to co-partner on things. It's just we, we want to, we want to foster the opportunities if it makes sense. And Tim's the pilot sort of program right now with the bike, the little bike shop that he's running and it gets interesting, I hope. I hope it sparks other employees to say, okay, cool, I've wanted to do this, that or the other and it looks like I could and come to us and say, ‘Oh, could you carve out this space again?’ We are, we are under more, more efficient space right now and we do have a little bit of room. So, I hope that, I hope somebody else says, okay, I want to do this and it, and it fits the needs and the use and isn't a big deal. It'd be great because it means that we can, we can continue to lift what they want to be a part of and retain them at some time. JD: Yeah. Very good. It was fun. Oh, okay. Well, I think that pretty much has run through my list plus of questions for you about your career, your history, and what's going on with Lost Abbey/Port Brewing. And I want to thank you for that. And I'm going to go ahead and turn this off. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08.xml ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arthur, Tomme. Interview August 8, 2019 Description An account of the resource Tomme Arthur has been involved in several San Diego breweries, most notably as founder and managing owner of Lost Abbey Brewing located in San Marcos, CA. His first professional brewing position was at the short-lived Cervecería La Cruda in San Diego, California. Arthur moved to Pizza Port Brewing in Solana Beach, California as an assistant brewer. After becoming Director of Brewing Operations for the increasing number of locations, he led the chain in garnering numerous beer awards. Arthur opened Lost Abbey Brewing in 2006 to focus on his interest in Belgian-style beers. In late 2023, Arthur separated Lost Abbey from Port Brewing operations in a ‘right-sizing’ plan in response to beer industry trends. Port Brewing retained the Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles, and Kharisma brands in their portfolio and took over the San Marcos production space and closed the tasting room. Lost Abbey entered an alternating proprietorship agreement with Mother Earth Brewing to share their production space in nearby Vista, CA. In his 2019 interview, Arthur discusses his introduction to craft beer and home brewing; entry into the profession and work at various breweries beginning in the 1990s; founding Lost Abbey Brewing and other brewery ventures; mentoring individuals in the industry; and awards. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-044 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Lost Abbey Brewing (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tomme Arthur Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/226612c0577f663c67ab24dd321c55c1.pdf cd7aae43e52969e82eec74a15793f4d1 PDF Text Text TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 Biographical Note: Throughout his career Tomme Arthur has gained a reputation in the industry for his focus on Belgianstyle ales, national awards, and mentorship of newer brewers. He is a frequent presenter at various brewing conferences. Tomme Arthur has been involved in several San Diego breweries, most notably as founder and managing owner of Lost Abbey Brewing located in San Marcos, CA. His first professional brewing position was at the short-lived Cervecería La Cruda in San Diego, CA founded by Troy Hojel. Arthur moved to Pizza Port Brewing in Solana Beach, California as an assistant brewer. After becoming Director of Brewing Operations for the increasing number of locations, he led the chain in garnering numerous beer awards. He opened Lost Abbey Brewing in 2006 to focus on his interest in Belgian-style beers. Lost Abbey remained in a partnership with Pizza Port under the Port Brewing umbrella. The Lost Abbey opened in the original location for Stone Brewing, vacated when Stone moved to Escondido, CA. The brewhouse underwent an extensive expansion in 2019 to accommodate the additional beverage brands Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles and Kharisma. Lost Abbey expansion included tasting rooms The Confessional in Cardiff, CA, The Sanctuary in the San Elijio Hills neighborhood of San Marcos, CA, and The Church in downtown San Diego, CA. In late 2023, Arthur separated Lost Abbey from Port Brewing operations in a ‘right-sizing’ plan in response to beer industry trends. Port Brewing retained the Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles, and Kharisma brands in their portfolio and took over the San Marcos production space and closed the tasting room. Lost Abbey entered an alternating proprietorship agreement with Mother Earth Brewing to share their production space in nearby Vista, CA. Mother Earth had closed a tasting room at this location when they moved the bulk of brewing operations to Idaho. Arthur announced plans to renovate and re-open the tasting room space. Judith Downie: 00:00:00 So today is August 8th, 2019 and this is Judith Downie, the Curator of the CSUSM Brewchive® with Tomme Arthur, founder and co-owner of Lost Abbey, the Hop Concept, Port Brewing, and myriad other projects that we're going to be asking about. So tell me, the purpose of this is to kind of record in one place things I've seen in a lot of places. You know, you've been very generous with your time with people mentoring and interviewing. And so this is for the Brewchive®, basically an overall history of your life experiences as a brewer, thoughts, things like that. So, we do have a list of questions here, which again I'll read them off, I may reword them a little bit and you are open to responding to them however you need. And I hope we have plenty of time that you've talked about things that maybe nobody's ever asked you. Tomme Arthur: 00:00:59 That would be fun. Yeah. JD: 00:01:01 So record these things for posterity. So, let's start with your background. To be clear, from what I've seen, you started home Transcribed by Judith Downie 1 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 brewing in Arizona while you were in college and how did that start? TA: 00:01:16 So I am a native San Diegan. My family's three to four generations on both sides. Went to Saint Augustine High School. When I was in high school, I decided that I really liked the English language and I wanted to study English and felt that teaching was a path that I would probably take. JD: 00:01:30 Okay. TA: 00:01:31 And so I fell in love with Flagstaff as a campus and community. And the school at Northern Arizona University had a really good education teaching program. So that's how I ended up in Flagstaff. When I got to school, I met a family, last name is Gardner and, and their son, Tom. And I became very close and the Gardner family really was into beer and they were sort of my mentors to beer. TA: 00:02:00 And they said, you know, we're going to teach you about better beer. And of course, I was only 18 at the time, but you know, I wasn't gonna say no. And they kind of pushed me in this direction of here's what better beer looks like, tastes like. American beer, imported beer, Canadian, very English, you know, all the, all the different countries where a great beer would have come from. A lot of it at that time was imported of course. JD: 00:2:22 Right. Because really, you know, we're talking what the... TA: 00:2:26 1991 and 95 was when I was in school. JD: 00:2:27 Okay. So there really wasn't much of a craft beer scene in Arizona I don't think. TA: 00:2:31 There were very few craft breweries in Arizona. In fact, there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff at the time. We ended up having three open up in my last year of school. But there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff and at that time. There was likely to be 10 or 15 probably in the entire state. But we've got a lot of regional beers. There was a lot of beer from Oregon, Washington, Northern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado beer. So there was some American craft. But mostly from very older players, you know, Sierra Nevada Anchor, Deschutes <Brewery>, big, bigger breweries. Transcribed by Judith Downie 2 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:03:08 And being that the craft beer scene in San Diego was still pretty young in that time period. Do you remember seeing anything from San Diego? TA: 00:03:16 No. In fact we, we actually talk about this a lot, that prior to Stone Brewing coming into San Diego, nobody actually sent beer outside of San Diego. Karl Strauss <Brewing> had beer in San Diego at the time and packaged in bottles. But they, I don't believe much of their beer, if any, was leaving the San Diego area. So my understanding is that it really wasn't until Stone opened their doors and shipped beer to Arizona, likely maybe Nevada, you need to ask them, where they crossed the state line and perhaps were one of the original new craft breweries to actually make beer to leave San Diego. JD: 00:03:51 Which is really interesting because I have in my pre-Prohibition research on San Diego craft brewing found Mission Brewing. They were brewing beer to supplement San Diego Consolidated Brewing, which is San Diego Brewing Company <today>. They were San Diego Consolidated Brewing for a while and Arizona passed Prohibition in 1914, five years before National Prohibition and halted any shipment of even Hopski, which was a near beer Mission was brewing, into the state. They weren't even allowing that. And there was a big lawsuit and Mission Brewing lost and that was the contributing factor to the closure of Mission through that. TA: 00:04:28 They actually lost out on a nonalcoholic or near beer. JD: 00:04:31 Yeah. Hopski, and they didn't continue to brew that because J. H. Zitt, who was the president, the current owner of San Diego Consolidated Brewing had said ‘I will never brew anything but real beer.’ So he's the one who decided to close Mission. Because he actually owned it at the time because his father-inlaw and brother-in-law, who had founded Mission, had walked away. TA: 00:04:58 Yeah, the old San Diego stuff is really interesting. JD: 00:05:00 Yeah, and it's a, it's an interesting kind of parallel between you being in Arizona and starting your interest in beer there and then coming back to San Diego. Transcribed by Judith Downie 3 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:05:12 But I've also seen that you've noted that your favorite beers are Belgian style. What? TA: 00:05:16 I just find them to be very unique and I think that there's, there's a pretty, I guess when I first got started in brewing in my sort of craft foundation, they were the most unique things out there. And that, that today is not necessarily the case. There's so many new producers and people that have really taken the boundaries and, and stretched them and moved them in directions. I think ostensibly under a Belgian influence or sort of what amounts to be a Belgian artistry, but there's a lot more to it these days. And I just think that if you, if you become imaginative about beer, you have to look at what the Belgians did or were doing at that time. Technique wise, yeast wise flavors, just process things. Very unconventional via what, what would amount to be a very conventional sort of brewing, you know, take four malts or take four ingredients. You can, you used a lot of water and hops and that's beer. And then you look at what they do. And it's completely different. JD: 00:06:10 So you think the Belgians weren't constrained by the purity law that the Germans had and that's part of what led to their inventiveness? TA: 00:06:17 Yeah, I just feel like they as a group embraced different methodologies and, and that sometimes weren't easy. And those methods at least preserved flavors that couldn't be found in beer, again, conventional beer. JD: 00:06:33 Okay. Very interesting. So, onto your actual brewing experiences. You started home brewing? I read it was a homebrew kit... TA: 00:06:44 So the Gardner’s bought me a home brew kit early for my graduation. So, I was gifted it in January of 1995 and that's when we started homebrewing. JD: 00:06:50 Okay. And you didn't like the first beer you brewed? TA: 00:06:52 The first beer we brewed, it was a black style, you know, sort of a dry Irish Guinness-style stout, but it came out very thin and didn't taste like Guinness or anything. So it wasn't, it was not a good beer. But you know, I think the expectations were high and probably should have set the bar a little lower. JD: 00:07:08 Was this extract or all grain? Transcribed by Judith Downie 4 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:07:09 It was extract for sure. JD: 00:07:12 Yeah. Because of course supplies even in the 90s, were still kind of hard to come by. TA: 00:07:15 Yeah, we were pretty lucky there was a homebrewer outpost in Flagstaff, so there was a store that sold ingredients that we could've, we could've started in an all-grain basis. But I was living in a house with four people and it just wasn't really, I didn't have the resources to go build a full all grain brewing system, with the plastic fermenters and you know, boiling on the stove top kind of stuff was definitely where it was at. JD: 00:07:40 Yeah, you got to start somewhere. So, then you came back to San Diego. Was that, what was the reason for coming leaving Arizona? TA: 00:07:47 So I graduated in June or May of 1995. JD: 00:07:50 So was this your bachelor's or your teaching credential? TA: 00:07:52 This was my bachelors of arts in just English. And at that point I didn't really want to stay in Flagstaff and I wasn't gonna attend grad school there. So, I moved back home and so I left. And when I got home I kind of kicked around a little bit trying to figure out what I was going to do and really didn't have a plan necessarily I was able to go back and live with my parents. And you know, the only requirement was that I find a job. So, I found a job and that's kinda how I got in the downtown life. My dad had a printing business when I was growing up, so I was very, very well trained and I worked in the campus print shop when I was in school. So, I applied for a printing job in a downtown San Diego business and I was commuting, taking the trolley from La Mesa down into downtown San Diego every day. And I happened to be reading want ads, just, it was all that was left in the newspaper at that point. And stumbled upon a brew pub opening that had an ad in the paper for cooks, dishers, all that stuff in it said assistant brewer and I circled it. And I walked over the next day at lunch and applied for a job. And that was actually Cervecería La Cruda. JD: 00:09:00 Right, with Troy Hojel? So, you actually opened Cervecería La Cruda in September of ‘96? TA: 00:09:10 No, they, they would have opened, I think it would've been March of 96 ‘cause we ended up, we attended the great Transcribed by Judith Downie 5 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 American beer festival in September, October of 96 and then it closed. It was less than a full year. I think I was hired in April, May-ish. and then I wasn't there even for a full year. JD: 00:09:27 Yeah. I have, I have March ‘97 is when it closed. TA: 00:09:31 So I think it probably was mid April-ish I would've been hired in. We didn't even make it a full year. JD: 00:09:39 Yeah. This is the kind of thing I like because I have a very large Excel spreadsheet of every brewery from 1868 which was Chollas Valley Brewery through today. Whether they opened or closed, it never made it, pulled the license, whatever... TA: 00:09:55 So, how many different breweries have attempted to open? Are we in the three hundreds or? JD: 00:09:58 Well, my Excel spreadsheet also includes all the individual tasting rooms because generally they pull a separate ABC license. I'm up over 550 getting close to 600 I think, but I could certainly get back to you with how many tried and never even actually opened. I think there's a real object lesson there. TA: 00:10:18 I think the most interesting thing is that we operate that there's 160 or whatever right now that are active, but it's really interesting to know kind of how many have kind of opened and closed and opened and closed and where you know, you can say, okay, since prohibition we've had 208 that have tried or participated in this, in this scene. JD: 00:10:37 Yeah, because I break the whole history into three parts. There was a pre-Prohibition 1868 to 1919, 1919/1920 then 1933 to 1953 because Aztec, which had sold to Altes Brewing, closed and they were the last brewery operating post-Prohibition and then we didn't pick up again until the <19>80s so I can extract that information and get it to you because those numbers are always very powerful. TA: 00:11:05 Yeah. I just feel like it'd be interesting to say since Prohibition, there's been 208 licenses that were issued or over, you know, JD: 00:11:12 And then there were others that announced a name or announced that they were going to open and never even got around to pulling a license. You know, so I have, I have every single possible name of any business that ever said ‘we are going to be a brewery or a brew pub, or...’ Transcribed by Judith Downie 6 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:11:28 No one ever drops on in front of you and you say, haven't heard of it. JD: 00:11:30 Well actually not too long ago, I ran across one called the Royal Duffer. And that evidently they were contract brewing. They were in Carlsbad and they were like four golf buddies. And so they had beer for, again, I think it was less than a year. And I haven't been able to find out too much information from them, but I'm very alert to, ‘Oh, I don't think I've ever heard of that name before’ so this is the first one I've not heard of in a long time. So I think I'm pretty comprehensive. But yeah. Yeah, it's been interesting and a lot of work. But going back to Troy, is Troy still around? TA: 00:12:10 He is in somewhere in Colorado outside of Denver. In fact, I just talked to him the other day. He texted me, I think his cousin opened a brewery in Texas and he had a question or two. TA: 00:12:20 So yeah. He's in Colorado and doing the software. JD: 00:12:23 Okay. So he's no longer in the brewing business. TA: 00:12:25 No, actually he left the brewery business and ended up doing software in Northern California for a bit, I think, and then moved off to Colorado. JD: 00:12:33 Well, it's gotta be sad to watch your dream die especially so quickly. TA: 00:12:35 You know, it was a pretty aggressive life lesson, you know? It taught me a lot in the short time that we were into it. I still think that Troy is one of the best brewers I've ever met. And it would've been a really cool thing to see it succeed at, but certainly would've put me on a different life path, I think if it had. So I don't, I don't try not to, you know, revisionist history, that part of it. But the beers that he made and he was a very technical brewer, I think, I think it would've been, it would've added to the scene even more. JD: 00:13:05 Yeah. What actually happened? Was it just lack of sales? TA: 00:13:09 I think more than anything it was a bad, is a bad business model. I don't know if you know the story of Baja Brewing Company. JD: Transcribed by Judith Downie 00:13:17 I'm familiar with the name, but not really the story. 7 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:13:20 So Baja Brewing Company opened up and they claimed to be the very first Mexican-themed brewpub in the United States. Now it was their claim to fame. But what happened is that the partners at Baja Brewing and the partners at La Cruda actually had a schism and they split. They were going to open the Baja Brewing Company together or something along those lines and they had a falling out and the partnership dissolved. And so these guys opened Baja Brewing Company and less than three or four months later Cervecería La Cruda opened up three blocks away. So the very first Mexican theme brewpub in this country opened up and three blocks later and three months and three blocks over the second one opened. So, very underfunded from the get-go. Very, it was a 13,000 square foot building at Forth and Island, you know, big, big building. Too much of it to just for the time I, I'd be nervous opening a 13,000 square foot building brewpub today. And you know, back when the Gaslamp was kind of still new and trendy and hot, I don't know what the rent was, but just overall a bad, a bad vision I think for what was going on. JD: 00:14:31 Ahead of its time. Really. TA: 00:14:32 Yeah. And the thing that's kind of crazy is that Cervecería La Cruda to them is a hangover brewery. So when you say ‘tengo la cruda’, that means I have the crud, I'm not feeling well. That's not a real great way to tell people you want to come here and drink. They opened up with a menu that they had sourced from the family that owned El Callejon in Encinitas. So, they had this really great, I would say deep, deep Mexican Sonoran source, you know, for and things. But that wasn't on anyone's radar with respect to craft brew at the time. So, good people, great, great opportunity. But not even something, that I think today, even if you attempted to tackle it, would probably work really well. JD: 00:15:12 So as you say, a real experience. TA: 00:15:14 Yeah, a lot I learned from, you look around and you see simplicity sometimes wins. JD: 00:15:20 Or slow growth. Planned slower. TA: 00:15:22 Or have more money than you think. Yeah. Transcribed by Judith Downie 8 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:15:27 Somebody said to me one time something like, you need five times more than you think you do. And I would, I think that's true with any business really. But the expense of equipment and materials and everything and you just can't do it all yourself. TA: 00:15:40 No. You gotta be able to weather a lot of storms. JD: 00:15:44 And you know, with this, I know in September of 2016 I went to the craft beer conference up in Sacramento and I saw you speak there and you at that time, this is three years ago now, said that San Diego was already over-saturated, and you would not open up a brewery at this point in San Diego. And how many breweries have we had open up? TA: 00:16:06 Continues to be a head-scratching thing. Yeah. Well, we joke, I mean, we're here in San Marcos now. I've got three breweries within a one-mile stretch. Right. So yeah, that's just the way it is. Yeah. JD: 00:16:21 But you're each different. Accommodating everybody at some point. But so when La Cruda closed, you moved to White Labs for just a couple of months in yeast sales. Was that based because you knew about yeast? TA: 00:16:34 So White Labs had just kinda gotten their feet wet. So I remember the very first day when I was at La Cruda, one of the very first days I was at La Cruda. Chris White1 walked in on a sales call. And so we were chatting and talking and at some point, and this is a part of my history that I don't remember all of that clearly, but I ended up moving in with them. I mean I was a roommate and I think there was a crossover point where I was working at La Cruda, but I already moved into their house. Cause he and Lisa had an empty room. I needed a place to stay. And then when La Cruda was on its way to be closing it became kind of obvious that I could help them in their infancy of their company with some just R and D and just different trialing and things like that. TA: 00:17:15 You know, I had met a lot of brewers in Arizona at that time. So Chris said, well, why don't you come help me just kind of knock down some doors and you know, we just need somebody that can walk in and kind of talk about this in a very brewer friendly kind of way. So my goal was I was kind of like an ambassador really. You know, I didn't really do a lot of pure sales but my job was to talk about it and explain how my experience with 1 Chris White is the founder of White Labs. Transcribed by Judith Downie 9 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 different yeasts and temperatures and things like that. So it was kind of just yeah, I think it was more of a product, product knowledge and ambassador at that point. JD: 00:17:47 Was there any conversation at that time about opening up a tasting room for yeast labs? TA: 00:17:51 No. No. I mean, maybe Chris had it, but it you know, that was a pretty, it was a long time ago and there wasn't really a sense of yeast as a business outside of the yeast business. I don't think there was sort of that auxiliary layer to it. I'm sure Chris would have liked to have had a bunch of beers on tap, but I, I would imagine if he had had that thought back then that they would have probably just wanted 10 beers on tap for their customers to come sample them, but not necessarily not, not really treat it as an educational function for the consumer as much as an educational experience for a brewer who maybe hadn't worked a certain use and things like that. I mean there's just an enormous amount of yeasts that have been banked since we started. Since I got my first job in 1996 there's been an enormous amount of new yeast that had been added. So, they need an avenue to show people what those yeasts do. JD: 00:18:41 And back then too, you probably had a lot of brewers, even professional brewers, would be how I see it. That didn't really understand a lot about the hops that were available. The yeast that was available, you know, cause a lot of them had, were coming out of the homebrew experience and you know, all of a sudden here's more stuff you need to know. TA: 00:19:02 If you go back and look at it ‘95, ‘96 to, so that time, I mean we're talking about a dial up modem, you know, we're talking about low internet speed, we're talking about not... JD: 00:19:08 A lot of people, not even having computers or knowing how to use it. TA: 00:19:12 Not even a lot of Information online. Frankly. I mean you couldn't, you could not do all the kind of information that's out there today. And, and past that, a lot of the information that did exist in book format was highly technical through the ASBC2 and the big brewers. And then what was available that had been written about the sort of homebrew level and medium brewery. There wasn't a lot of medium brewery stuff in there, so you American Society of Brewing Chemists. Transcribed by Judith Downie 2 10 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 were getting a lot of books on how to brew ales, but they had this really big English, you know, sort of basis to them. Cask condition, real ale ingredients weren't American in their basis. So there was no ability to look up and say, Oh, how do I use this German hefeweizen yeast? You know, how do I, how much do I pitch it, what temperature, how does it behave? And none of that information existed. JD: 00:19:59 So a lot of technical stuff. TA: 00:20:00 Yeah. even just simplistic technical. What's the right temperature? JD: 00:20:03 And around here San Diego was still something of a Coors town that's San Diego was test market for a couple of different, for Coors Light and for Herman Joseph's 1868 and you know, so really do you have much of a market for... TA: 00:20:18 In fact, we joked about it here. This was the best, I think this was the best-selling Coors light town when I took in, when I got into brewing, this was the number one Coors Light in the country. JD: 00:02:26 Yes, it was. TA: 00:02:28 Well that explains to you, you know, where we're, where we were and where we came from. And on top of that you had all the import beers too, right? You still had Coronas and Pacifico and the Modelos in the world doing very well here at that time too. So yeah, it was a, it was a long ways to the top. JD: 00:20:42 So you weren't at White Labs for very long before you were hired by Pizza Port. Pizza Port just had the one location then, right? TA: 00:20:48 They had the one location in Solana Beach. Vincent, Gina3 had been partners in the Carlsbad Public House with a guy named Brett. I think his last name was Stamp. JD: 00:21:00 Tetley Ridden4, I, it's a hyphenated name. TA: 00:21:07 Yeah. And then he became a, they, they had a falling out with Carlsbad Public House and they were in, they were in the 3 4 Vincent and Gina Marsaglia Redmayne-Titley Transcribed by Judith Downie 11 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 process of converting the Public House, which is the Pizza Port in Carlsbad in the village into the Pizza Port at that time. So I was, I was brought into assist on Solana Beach because the head brewer was going to go have shoulder surgery and then they were supposed to move me up to Carlsbad to take over the production of the brewing and Carlsbad once, once he came back. So there was almost a second Pizza Port in line at that time. So they were, they were in the home stretch of the construction to convert it from the Public House to Pizza Port, which opened in July of 1997 so they were real close. And I always like to tell the story ‘cause I think it's very fascinating to me. I'd never stepped foot in Pizza Port before I got interviewed for the job. So I had no real perceived concept or notion of what exactly they did or what they didn't do. JD: 00:22:02 Okay. And so you were an assistant brewer then? You weren't head brewer? TA: 00:22:10 Yeah. Eddie Class, I think his last name was Classic. He was the head brewer at that time. And Vince was going to be the head brewer in Carlsbad when they opened. So yeah, Eddie was in charge of the brewery in Solana Beach and he was gonna go, I think I was going to have rotator cuff surgery and take about three months off. And then when he came back I was supposed to go take the job in Carlsbad. JD: 00:22:30 Okay. but you, you obviously that didn't quite work out that way, but you were promoted to Director of Brewery Operations in June of 2005. TA: 00:22:38 Yeah, that was a short stint ‘cause we were getting ready to open this place too. So yeah. JD: 00:22:43 So you already knew you were going to be moving on? TA: 00:22:46 We were having conversations at that point about how to get to here. We, I think in June it kind of was a collective. They terminated Kirk McHale, who was the brewer in Carlsbad in June of 2005 and then there was the San Clemente location, Carlsbad location, and Solana Beach. And I was asked to kind of tackle all three of them at the same time, make sure that they were more or less on the same page, collectively, kind of get them aligned. And then we also knew that we were having conversations about a new partnership and trying to build up the partnerships so that we could get this, this facility put into our orbit. Transcribed by Judith Downie 12 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:23:24 Okay. So that leads me into the founding Port Brewing in partnership with Vince and Gina. And you know, you have Port Brewing, you have Lost Abbey, you have the Hop Concept and I've also seen that you're involved in an Arizona brewery called Moto Sonora. So can you explain the structure of everything? TA: 00:23:49 Yeah. When we started talking to Stone Brewing about buying this facility from them you know, my love of Belgian beers was pretty strong and I knew that we wanted to make some things out here that were very barrel aged, Belgian influenced and all that. And we had this, Vince had the idea for the brand called the Lost Abbey. So we were very, very keen on the fact that we knew that was going to happen. There were a lot of beers at Pizza Port that were being produced that needed to kind of stretch and grow and needed to get from get out from under just being a pub-based beer. And that allowed, you know, people who had been asking for more, you know, basically Pizza Port beer. And that's where the Port Brewing came from. So the Port Brewing beers, many of them when we opened our doors here came from Solana Beach recipes that I had produced, Hop 15, Santa’s Little Helper, Shark Attack. We brought the Wipe Out recipe over from Carlsbad and those beers had a lot of legacy towards the pubs and, and kind of, you know, grew them out of that realm. But we knew that there'd be the Port brand’s very West coast centric, you know, kind of that Ballast Point, Coronado, Green Flash, Stone kind of mentality. You know, higher hopping rates, you know, sometimes imperial, things like that. We always knew that that wasn't really that wasn't going to be our principal focus in the sense that we were going to have the two brands, but we also knew that having the two brands side by side allowed us to walk in and have a wide range of beers without having everything be a Lost Abbey beer or Port Brewing beer. JD: 00:25:15 Okay. And then the Hop Concept is a fairly recent addition to the portfolio. TA: 00:25:20 So a few years ago I walked into a bar and all the beer names on the wall really just confused me. There were so many new beers and I had no idea what they tasted like. And I didn't want to be a bother to the bartenders and try to, you know, ask them this or that. And I'm not an Untappd person. I don't really use digital media to tell me what I should be drinking. So, it kinda came back to we wanted to create a line of beers that were very fresh Transcribed by Judith Downie 13 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 and simplistic in their makeup. So, the Hop Concept beers, we had a line called the Hop Freshener series and they were basically we had ‘Dank and Sticky’ and ‘Citrus and Piney and ‘Lemon and Grassy’ and ‘Tropical and Juicy’. And it was essentially taste and smell. And we, all we were trying to do was tell the consumer and the bartender, this is what you should expect the beer to taste like, or smell like. And it was a quick, straightforward deliverable and it was meant to be a, I use the word simple, but simple deliverable like you knew what you were getting. We were setting you up to understand how that beer should taste and behave. JD: 00:26:16 Yeah, it does seem like naming beers because they do have to be registered names or whatever, becomes a bigger and bigger challenge. And in just looking at a name on the board, you frequently have no idea of what that beer really is. So, something like this where you're going back to the basics, this is what you're going to get. I think must be very attractive. TA: 00:26:36 I thought the cleanliness of it for us, which was just straightforward and nomenclature and deliverable TA: 00:26:44 Like this is this is what you can expect and... JD: 00:26:47 Your label designs are very clean and very clear. Where Lost Abbey looks much more European, Medieval in a lot of ways. TA: 00:26:55 And we went out and we went out and hired a firm for the first time to really, we told them this is what our vision is and this is why we're doing it this way, but we want you to make sure we produce this with a very crisp look to it. And they, they certainly executed that and I, and I think that's always been a strength of that brand. JD: 00:27:13 Yeah. Let me ask you a little bit about the latest venture, Moto Sonora. I read that this was evidently your college roommate you are in partnerships with and his younger brother. And, of course, this is taking you back to Arizona. TA: 00:27:30 It is. Tucson, not Flagstaff. I wish it was in Flagstaff, but I'm going to come to like Tucson cause it's closer. But yeah, my, it's kind of ironic because this was a random sort of thing back when, when I was in college with Jeff. Jeff really wasn't a big beer drinker but it turns out but his brother Jeremy really fell in love with craft beer and the two of them kind of decided that Transcribed by Judith Downie 14 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 they have a high value for the city of Tucson. They loved that area. They've got deep roots in the community there. Their family, the DeConcini family's been a, been a big part of the Arizona scene and they just wanted to do this project. And I started talking to them as a consultant and just kind of saying, let me, let me hear what you're thinking. And then they said, well, maybe you could spend some more time on it. And I said, yeah, I've got the time to do that. TA: 00:28:18 Let's, let's do this. So, I am coming in as one of the co-founders on that project. Port Brewing is not involved in the sense that we're not invested in it. JD: 00:28:26 That was a question I had. TA: 00:20:28 We're not, Port Brewing is not an investor in the company. Although I have permission with my partners to supply as many ingredients and things, you know, that we can, we can work to make sure that the beers there are at the highest, you know, sort of capacity. And if it means we're buying the hops and selling them hops and things like that, that's gonna happen. You know, I see it as potentially a training ground where if one of our brewers wants the position when we get going or they, you know, we want to move people out that way. But this is not anything more than a co-founding situation where I have the freedom to go tight, you know, take on other projects. I, I kind of liken it to chefs having multiple locations or bar owners having, you know, other projects and things. But I'm not moving to Tucson and I'm not going to be the head brewer there. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to establish what we're doing and push the company in the right direction and make sure that we become a really valuable part of that community. We've been definitely looking forward to the, just being involved in it and you know, a different beer scene at the same time. JD: 00:29:24 Well, this kind of jumps over some of the questions I have because it leads into the amount of mentoring and work with newer brewers and the collaborations you do with the more established brewers. You are renowned in the industry for how people can come to you and pick your brain and you support and mentor in so many different ways. I see you as a oneperson campaign to ensure craft beer success. And, and this is in comparison with efforts like Stone's True Craft where there were more financial assistance. Have you always been a remarkable mentor? It sounds kind of like, you know, you're, you're thinking to become a teacher. Transcribed by Judith Downie 15 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:30:05 Yeah. I think that's a big part of it, right? It's a, it's a sense of, you know, that shared piece. You know, I remember very, very early in my, in my Solana Beach days, I wanted to make a Saison-style beer and I needed to find somebody who could give me the answer for how much ginger I was supposed to put in the beer. Cause I wanted to make the beer with some ginger. And there weren't many places where I could turn to. And I picked up the phone one day and I called the owner of LeftHand Brewing Company, his name was Dick Doore. And I said, Dick, you guys have this amazing Juju, ginger pale ale. I love it. Would you be willing to share that information with me? And he did. And he, you know, and we'd barely met. And it was one of those things that, okay, yeah, that's how the industry works. Right. And you know, this is something that I think Troy had put in my head back in the day was like, there are the right people to be talking to and then there's the wrong people. And the wrong people are the ones that don't freely exchange the information, or they don't, they don't try to push it uphill. And for the longest time we had so much work to do in this town to push the level uphill that we collectively had to talk about it. I mean, everybody I think that you would interview would have the similar sense of if we didn't all work together then we wouldn't have gotten to where we were. JD: 00:31:18 Isn't that the principle behind the San Diego Brewers Guild? TA: 00:31:21 Of course, you know, the very first Guild meeting was out at La Cruda. So yeah. Yes, for sure that the Guild, you know, I think we were the very first city in the country to have its own brewers guild. TA: 00:31:31 And that, that's kind of a, you know, a feather in the cap for what I think, you know, the old, the old guard or the people that really did, you know, hunker down back in the day was that there was a true sense that there was going to be something really good about the scene here. But we had to work really hard at it. So, I've always liked that conversational aspect of it. I believe that I can, I can ask the right questions with friends and people and, and if I can turn around and get that information back out, it makes sense. So yeah, why not? I mean, there's, there's very little, I guess I don't feel very competitive or threatened by it by that, you know, that dialogue or that sharing of information. Transcribed by Judith Downie 16 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:32:05 I think that's, I mean, I, I'm on certain, like the San Diego Plexus Facebook group and stuff, and your name comes up and everybody says, Tomme Arthur, he's the person to talk to. He is the god locally, you know, I mean, your name is always used in very positive way, which I think really speaks to the efforts that you have put into the community and supporting, especially newer brewers, but also working with other established brewers and not treating it as competition but treating it as we can all be better. TA: 00:32:34 And I think the one thing that's kind of maddening these days, and this is, this is my personal soap box] is that there's a lot of TA: 00:32:39 People that are collaborating on things. And I'm, I'm very concerned about this new sense of collaborating because I don't know that it's doing much other than it's bringing people together. And then you say, well what did we change and what did we do? And I'm like, okay. But I think the collaborative narrative of old was we collaborated on something because it was going to be something demonstratively different than we could have done singularly. And I'm not sure that much of that's going on today. So, when we collaborate with an old guard or with someone new, we're, we're really trying to have a sense of purpose. And I hope that people continue to realize that just collaborating with someone for the sake of sales isn't always, I guess from where I come, from isn't always the best course of action. JD: 00:33:25 Again, going to your mentoring, have you had the opportunity to open doors for specific groups? And I'm thinking women or minorities or people with disabilities, people, you know, because the standard concept of a brewer is a male, white guy, you know, I mean that just still is. It's not that way anymore. But have you had opportunities to work with or speak to groups to encourage them? TA: 00:33:51 I was thinking about this the other day because you know, I look at our staff, it is generally mostly male. We have had a few female employees on the beer side in the past and they've been phenomenal employees. And I was thinking the other day that we haven't done enough in our world to cultivate that specifically. And I know the Brewers Association is pretty keen on promoting diversity and things these days. And I'm wondering as an educational mentor, et cetera, where I should be looking to do some of those things or how I get involved in that. You know, where, where can I be impactful in that, in that space. And I don't know if it's through the university or through, 17 2024-01-04 Transcribed by Judith Downie �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 you know, there's a big Latino population up here in San Marcos and Vista. But clearly, you know, being white and being white isn't always the best thing. With respect to trying to, you know, we've got to find new, new people to energize and really enthuse about what we do. And preaching to the 40-year-old male white choir isn't, isn't the best place to live in. JD: 00:34:47 Well, I don't know if you're aware of Border X <Brewing>, which is of course down in Barrio Logan has, is sponsoring a women's beer club called Mujeres Brew Club. I'm sorry, I, my Spanish isn't that swell. And they invited me to be their first speaker and they're doing a meeting each month on a different aspect and at the end they are going to brew a beer at Border X. And the women that are in there, many of them don't know even beer styles. I mean, one woman evidently asked the question, what's an IPA? And so, you know, and it's, it's a safe space for women and it does have a large number of Latina women, which I think is phenomenal because maybe some of these will become brewers and there are women are working in the beer industry in San Diego who are also members. JD: 00:35:40 Some of them are speakers and some are just attending the meetings because they're always eager to learn more. So maybe reaching out to, or you know, helping sponsor a group like that or Pink Boots Society5 of course, you know, is always looking for speakers and educational opportunities and things. But you know, there's a growing presence, but it is hard to, when women are so scattered or you know, like you say it's underrepresented with the minorities or you know, and there are certain positions that probably someone with a physical disability couldn't perform in a brewhouse, what could they do? Can they be the quality control people, things like that. So, it seems like there are places that we need to increase. TA: 00:36:24 Yeah. It's interesting because I was thinking about this again the other day. I was like, we just don't have that many women apply for jobs. It's, it's you know, I, you know, I have a, a fairly good amount of men working, you know males, working on the floor. But I can't remember the last time I saw an application come in for a brewing position from a woman. So somehow the outreach needs to get further than, you know, I'm talking entrylevel packaging jobs, things like that. There's, there's clearly, you know, there's, it's not a bias in our world. They're just not International organization for women and non-binary people in the fermentation industry. The first chapter was founded in San Diego. 5 Transcribed by Judith Downie 18 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 coming and knocking down our door. So somehow we have to convince them that this isn't, this is a pretty good place where they could, you know, they can, they can find careers and homes. JD: 00:37:04 Well, if you do want to advertise positions, I have a couple of resources. I can push things out to Pink Boots San Diego for one. And then there's another Facebook page of women interested in beer. Some are working in the industry; some are maybe looking to get into the industry. And of course, maybe pushing the word out to the EngiBeering® program at Cal State San Marcos. ‘Cause there are, there's at least a couple of women enrolled in that program. But yeah, it's hard because there aren't many women available to bring in. But then, you know, we do have a, you know, a fairly strong Hispanic population in this area. So, you know, why can't we leverage that? And it's finding those points of contact. That's a, that's a continual problem that I have seen. Also, to kind of jump back, I mentioned Stone's True Craft effort, which, you know, obviously died. It was a great idea to help small, small breweries with financing to where they didn't have to sell themselves to big beer. What did you think of that idea when you thought, heard of it? TA: 00:38:01 You know, I had a lot of friends that took meetings with them. I mean, at least on the surface I was told, you know, Hey, we've, we've gone and talked to them about it. I think the biggest challenge was, is that that was at a time when there was a lot of unrealistic expectations about valuations and what, what things were worth or how, how long term, you know, how companies would be out, people would work long term together. You know, it's an interesting model because this business is such a, almost a loner thing. Like most people open their own little brewery and then at some point you need more investment in that comes with a lot more triggers and kinds of parameters and stuff in some small breweries never outgrow the small, you know, model. They, I'm the single proprietor, not me. They are a single proprietor, ownership kind of environment and you know, they borrow money from the bank and that's what they get and that's what they want to be. You know, there's a very passionate pursuit for them. And then there's the big business side of it, which says if you're going to scale and grow and you know, buying equipment is not cheap and putting concrete in the ground and copper piping and just every single thing you could think of. Transcribed by Judith Downie 19 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:39:07 And the length time it takes to just deal with all the permitting within the city, within the state, with the ABC6. TA: 00:39:11 And the regulatory. Yeah. All of those pieces. So I applaud Greg for, and Steve, for putting the platform together. You know, the, I think the biggest hurdle for a lot of people is just how, how do you entrepreneurially sign up for something like that? Right? It's, it's, you know, it's a different, it's a different <unclear> in you. You're talking about an environment where you went from being in charge of your own facility to now having new investment that comes with different, again, different triggers and things. I think it's interesting cause nobody signed up to do it and I don't know if that was that the metrics didn't align or how that was. But I know a lot of people took meetings and so I guess the question is, is what, what was, what was unrealistic on both sides for, for that, how come it, how come they didn't get anybody to, to partner with? JD: 00:40:01 Yeah. I'm, I don't know who took meetings, but it would be interesting to talk to them to ask them why they didn't pursue that, and did they find an alternative that worked better for them. So that's on my list of things to do. Since we've mentioned big beer, have you ever been approached by big beer with an offer to purchase you or to work with them in some sort of way? TA: 00:40:25 No. In the 13 years that we've been open no one has put an offer sheet on the table and said, we want to buy you for XYZ dollars or otherwise. We have met with some family offices, venture people, people, you know, my thing is we'll take any meeting just to say hi. Mostly to learn about what people are looking for, what they're doing. But pretty emphatically we've never actually been offered, no one's ever actually offered to purchase us in, in a minority capacity and majority otherwise. So no. JD: 00:41:02 Good. I won't ask you what your response would be, but do you think that maybe partly it's because, I don't want to say you do extreme beers, but you do less run-of-the-mill beers in many cases that might just be something that big beer would not find attractive. TA: 00:41:23 If we live in a fringe world, we're, you know, we're sort of known as a super-premium producer and we have a lot of 6 California’s Alcoholic Beverage Control agency in charge of licensing alcohol production, distribution and sales. Transcribed by Judith Downie 20 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 niches that we feel from barrels and sour. You know, they've, big breweries have a need in sometimes to do that, but they, they, I think they've found those elsewhere and they want scale and they want all kinds of things. You know, San Diego is an interesting model, right. We had Ballast Point sold, you know, Green Flash had sold and we've had a lot of big, bigger companies come through and, and, and have taken investments. And so TA: 00:41:57 I don't know if there was any real need beyond, I think big beer came and found what they needed from San Diego. I'd be surprised if, if there's any big beer-ness left in San Diego. I mean, I say that, and you know, we'll see. But you know, I, I don't, I don't really feel like TA: 00:42:13 That the big beer is kind of be knocking down the doors in San Diego anytime soon. JD: 00:42:16 They got their toe in. TA: 00:42:18 Potentially because of the desaturation and just some of the difficulties that they might experience. ah, it's a, it's a whole, it's a whole run of things and it really has to do with, you know, where can they, where can they scale and where can they find their return on their investment and things like that. JD: 00:42:32 Yeah, no, that's what they're looking at is a bottom line. TA: 00:42:35 It is 100% about how much can they make on what they're buying it. Yeah. JD: 00:42:41 Because your beers are not run of the mill Coors-type beers, not to bash Coors, but just, you know, as an example, where did you get your early inspirations? I mean, you, you said you like the Belgians and you were exposed to a wide variety of European and, and what craft beer was made in the US. But things like oak aging and sour beers, were those things that you were exposed to early on or were those things that you found out later while you were experimenting? TA: 00:43:10 Yeah, it was early. I remember, I remember my first Chimay Red. I remember my first Guinness and I vividly remember the very first Rodenbach I ever had. And I, you know, the Rodenbach I think hit me more than anything else in that really portend, you know, that really does explain why, you know, like, Oh my God, that's okay. I know there's weird beer out there, Transcribed by Judith Downie 21 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 but this is way to the left, right? This thing is way, way downstream from anything I'd had at that point. You know, I was, when on the four years I was in college, I was sampling a lot of beers and then I continued to continue to buy beer. And, and it's just when you get one that's put in front of you and you say, wow, how did they do that? And that was kind of the, the aha that was the light bulb, I think was, was that first Rodenbach. That somebody who's living in a world where that, that's so to the extreme and delicious. But why can't, why can't I, why can't I think about beer like that? And that's, that definitely pushed me in that direction. JD: 00:44:06 Well that's great to have such an open mind. Do you remember who, if anyone else was doing things like barrel aging and sour beers or anything when you started doing it? TA: 00:44:17 Vinnie7 <Cilurzo> and I joke about this a lot cause Vinnie at Russian River and I are pretty good friends and a lot of it comes back to when we first picked up oak barrels and really got into that, you know, late 19, late 1990s, you know, the first batch of cuvée that we were making and they were making beer called Temptation. There was very little of that going on and I knew Belgian had <inaudible. in the market. But out West there weren't a lot of people making sour beer in barrels. And so we had to just kinda kick the can on how to do it. Talk collectively. Again, it got back to, we were not we did not, you know, you know, withhold the secrets. And we talked a lot about the what ifs and things and that I think was a big, big part of the success was just, okay, how are we going to do this in this environment? Because again, you couldn't open a book and read how to do it. Today you can open plenty of books. JD: 00:45:06 Or just find it out there on the web. TA: 00:45:10 I mean, you pick up the phone and call someone, but then back then it isn't, you know, how do you manage your barrel program or what do you, how do you do this? It was, well, I'm going to try, I'm going to try this. Okay. That sounds like that. That seems reasonable to me. Vinnie Cilurzo founded Blind Pig Brewing in Temecula, CA before moving to Northern California to found Russian River Brewing. 7 Transcribed by Judith Downie 22 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:45:22 Oh, so you can't think of anybody specifically locally though? You, I mean, Vinnie, to me, is still local as they were nearby, TA: 00:45:30 For sure, it’s California. JD: 00:45:32 but I'm thinking in San Diego. TA: 00:45:34 You know, I don't know if we, I always say we, being Pizza Port. I don't know if we were the first ones to make intentionally sour beer in San Diego. I don't recall running into it anywhere at that point. But for the sake of clarity, I never say we were the first ones because I truly don't know. There was some oak aging going on the guys at Rock Bottom <Restaurant and Brewery> in La Jolla specifically ‘cause I got barrels from them. AleSmith <Brewing Company>I think was right about that same time, ‘97, ’98-ish where they were getting into having some bourbon barrel kind of things going on. JD: 00:46:06 But that was Skip <Virgilio>8. TA: 00:46:07 Skip doing that. There was not a lot of sour beer in California at that point. So, or even San Diego can that I can recall. JD: 00:46:17 I’m glad sour beer’s around. Okay. You just mentioned cuvée. And I've seen it said that that is your favorite beer. TA: 00:46:26 Perhaps. JD: 00:46:27 Yeah. Perhaps. TA: 00:46:28 It’s the only one that bears my name 9. How's that? JD: 00:46:30 That's true. That's true. On the other hand, is there a beer that you ever made that you didn't care for, but everybody else said, no, we've got to put this on tap. TA: 00:46:43 Ooh, that's a damn good question. JD: 00:46:45 Did they, did it actually sell well? TA: 00:46:48 There is a running joke here at the brewery. We made a beer a few years ago called Spontaneous Cheer. And the Spontaneous 8 9 Skip Virgilio founded AleSmith Brewing and later sold to Peter and Vicky Zien. Cuvée du Tomme. Transcribed by Judith Downie 23 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 Cheer was a peach sour and it was actually spontaneously fermented. So we, we've got some spontaneous fermentation barrels and things that we do from time to time and we have a large library of barrels. We have over a thousand oak barrels full of now and we made this batch of beer and it tasted pretty darn good. That being said, I struggled with it personally because it didn't really manifest our house culture. We have a very strong sour beer sense. Like there's a terroir in our world. You can taste the Lost Abbey beer and it's white grapey and it's stone peach fruit. And you can tell that there's something about the way that we blend in and package. And that beer had none of it, even though it was a peach beer. But that's because all of the cultures came from the spontaneous portion. And so, people were like, you have to release this beer. And I can't in good conscience release it because you could open it in a tasting room in Texas and you'd have no idea it came from us and what's the point of that? So that's probably the one in this environment that had garnered a lot of energy I would say, okay, that's not what I was, didn't hate the beer, just wasn't keen on it. Bearing the name Lost Abbey being sour and didn't, didn't exude us. JD: 00:48:15 And so you have not brewed it again since. TA: 00:48:18 No, we haven’t. Even though we likely could, and people would freak for it, but it doesn't, again, it gets really to the point of, you know, we're really trying to have that identity in a big sea of imitations. I would think that that was probably a one-anddone. I'd be surprised if it came back. JD: 00:48:35 Okay, if I ever see an unopened bottle of it, I'll know that that's truly special. TA: 00:48:39 So we never bottled it. That's the only bottle that I think, I mean it was, it was literally only one oak barrel, so 50 gallons. But I think we only bottled it. I had a friend who had a baby and there was a request, but I, there shouldn't, there shouldn't be any bottles of that out in the world. There are, they probably aren't real. JD: 00:48:55 Yeah. Well, we'll know that they are shams. What was your very first award for brewing? TA: 00:49:04 That's a good question. JD: Transcribed by Judith Downie 00:49:08 You've had so many. 24 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:49:09 I know like, let's see. We had strong ale in 19... Well, okay. The very first award that I know for certain was the gold medal that I participated in at La Cruda. We won a gold medal10 for the Makanudo Porter, but that was not my beer and I was not the recipe generator. So I would say probably a beer that we brewed at Pizza Port and that was part of the Strong Ale Festival in ‘97 or ‘98. And then at that point we started entering the Real Ale Festival in Chicago or some California State Fair stuff. We did not win a GABF11 award until 1999, 2000. JD: 00:49:44 Shame on them. TA: 00:49:46 It took me a little while to figure out where our beers sort of fit in the competitive landscape, JD: 00:49:52 The pantheon of beers. TA: 00:49:53 So once I figured that part out, we got on a roll pretty, quickly. JD: 00:49:57 That does seem to be a little bit of a challenge cause I'm a member of the Society of Barley Engineers when they talk about submitting for homebrew <competitions>. Sometimes there are quite intense discussions about where a particular beer, that somebody’s having everybody sample, what category that fits into. And you do then deal with judges’ taste buds. Which, you know, it's a constantly moving landscape. TA: 00:50:17 I’ve been a GABF judge since ‘99-ish. And that has afforded me an enormous amount of opportunities to watch the process, participate in it, and even potentially piss off brewers and people who maybe didn't, you know, like the way that it went. It's fascinating to watch the competition evolve at a table relative to the dialogue, the strength of the judges, the opinions of the judges. Even just the sheer age of the, the judging has come from, there were only this block of people that used to do it and now it's expanded and now the categories have morphed and they're different. And the, you know, we talk about it a lot because it's, it's interesting to see how difficult, first of all, there's so many more beers, but the sheer, the sheer perspective that people are operating under relative to, I've had these style beers or I've never been think about, okay, I'm 10 11 Awarded at the Great American Beer Festival. Great American Beer Festival. Transcribed by Judith Downie 25 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 supposed to judge a Kölsch-style beer, but I'm a judge and I've never been to Cologne and had the six beers from there that are the, that are the standards. Well, how do you judge that? Like that's, that's a, it's an interesting scenario because you're being asked to read this against what was written, how this is how a standard should taste. Yet. You've never been in situ and had that environmental condition. JD: 00:51:41 Right, with that terroir and all everything else, all those factors that work into it. TA: 00:51:45 100 percent. I do agree with you that there's, one of the things about entering competitively is that there's so many different places beers can fit and sometimes it's really environmentally like time and place. Sometimes the beer exudes more oak and sometimes it doesn’t, and it wants to be in an oak category, but it can't cause it has brett12. We did a sampling a couple months ago back in early July and I think we went through 20 different beers for GABF trying to get down to the five that we wanted to send. And in order to do that we had to kind of pick the beers. We'd, you know, we brought out all the beers that we thought were really well done and then we had to go say, well that would fit here, wouldn't fit here, but it probably fits best here, but we don't want to send that beer there because we already have another one that wants to go there. So, you don't wanna compete against yourself either? JD: 00:52:35 Now are you limited to five beers for competition? TA: 00:52:39 Of late? They've been in the four to five range. Okay. A few years ago, you could send up to eight and prior to that it was kind of unlimited. But when it went from eight to five it got a lot harder. JD: 00:52:48 Yeah. But it just seems like, I mean you can see what thousands of entries that seems like and yeah, TA: 00:52:56 I think there's over 8,000 beers that'll be judged. But we always say this, it's like if, if back when we were going to sending eight beers, I don't know if we make eight world-class beers every fall. Right? So how many are really well done and how many of them are like, you know, that far up the channel. I think we 12 Industry jargon for Brettanomyces, a fungi used to sour beer. Transcribed by Judith Downie 26 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 make eight great beers but are they going to sit at the table and really, really compete. But I think when you have eight versus four, your odds are better. But perhaps being in categories that some, some years are strong, and some years are weak, is, is where it kind of comes from. JD: 00:53:29 Yeah. But you're also trying to be selective. I'm sure there are people that “I'll send as many beers as I can to increase my odds of winning an award.” Because of course the GABF awards still mean a lot. TA: 00:53:41 Yeah. There was a year, I know this to be true, where at least one or two breweries that don't need to be, and they're not from San Diego, sent somewhere between 30 to 50 beers. And didn't win an award. And these are pretty good breweries. So, you know, you're talking about the shotgun approach. You hit the side of the barn. But it was pretty interesting to see that they didn't win. You know, the years of late where we haven't, we haven't managed to win an award. You know, we look up and we talked to the guys and we say, you know, look at the breweries that didn't win. Like, you know, these are, these are still some, you know, solid, solid producers and congratulations to the ones that did. But yeah, there's no guarantee anymore. I mean, winning one is a pretty dang good achievement. JD: 00:54:24 Yeah. Well then in some cases, like just recently, what happens to the beer while is being transported? It could completely knock a perfectly good beer that left here out of any consideration because what happens to it or it doesn't even get there. TA: 00:54:39 Yeah. So we've tried to mitigate that as best we can. Where the consolidation point and we have been for a long time that helps with refrigeration and, you know, just really making sure that the beer is better taken care of, competitive, you know, competitive judging or, you know, competitive brewing. I would say this is far different than it was 10, 15 years ago. JD: 00:55:00 I guess for good and for bad both. But back to your awards, is there any award that you have one that is the most meaningful to you? Not to discount the other awards. TA: 00:55:12 Sure, I think two really come to mind. The, we've been lucky to win a <GABF> Brewery of the Year award four different times. And I'm, I'm personally, I really want to get to five. I want to have that. I want to have that, that last one on the, you know, in Transcribed by Judith Downie 27 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 that, you know, if I, if they gave out rings, I want to have the handful. The last time we won was 2007, so it's been a long time. And we may never get that opportunity again. I think the one that I won last year, which was the Russell Schehrer Award for Innovation and Craft Brewing, that that's you know, that's a hall of fame landscape kind of thing. And it just speaks to the community involvement and the, you know, being, being a participant in this, you know, only 22 people have won it at that point. And I, I, yeah, the legacy award, you know, something like that. I mean, I, I still love, I love the GABF and World Beer <Cup> Awards, a couple of awards cause they're, you know, they're purely blind. They're your peers. They show your team that they're, you know, they're making the right decisions. But the Russell award was probably the one that was singular in the sense that that was, you know, personally with my name on it. Where it's almost every other award that we've had that we've been lucky enough to garner comes with somebody else, you know, participating in doing work in that regard. JD: 00:56:29 Yeah. Okay. Well, very good. So, we're just about at the end of all my questions, from your experience, is there anything in the way of advice or a lesson you've learned or anything else that you think either can't be said enough or you haven't ever had the opportunity to say? TA: 00:56: You know, I think that we were talking yesterday, it's kind of interesting. We were talking about how difficult this business has become and there's a lot of noise and chatter and 50 years from now when someone's looking at this, they'll say, wow it's not as easy as it used to be. And I don't know where the fall line's going to be. We're going to get to 10,000 breweries in this country. I don't doubt that that'll happen. And I don't know where, where the relevancy will be. I don't know what it will look like. I feel pretty strongly that in the time that I've been lucky enough to be in this business, a lot of what's made us successful has come from a very strong sense of this is the beer I want to produce. And nowadays there seems to be a lot of, you have to just do what the consumer is saying they want. TA: 00:57:38 And tons of breweries I think are kind of losing their way, respectful of an identity. And I don't know if the artist in me can, can sort of reconcile that for the long haul. I think there's this sense that if, if that's the way the industry is going, you know, is that what I signed up for? Part of me wants to see the Transcribed by Judith Downie 28 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 consumerism shift and I, I talk about this a lot, but it's kind of like when you throw the boomerang out, it comes back a little slower than it went out and maybe the boomerang is coming back. You know, that there's just too much ubiquity right now. But maybe not. Maybe with 10,000 brewers, you just, there is ubiquity and that's just part of the nature of it. But you know, I think the success that I've had, you know, in this business has been built on beers that, that, that have something that look and tastes like things that I've, you know, imagined and there's been a lot of success for that. But I don't know how you continue to do that when there's 10,000 imitators and people trying to, trying to find the same sort of, you know, sense of their worth. So for me, I think the biggest thing moving forward is just where, where do we all fit in? It's just dense stuff. JD: 00:58:49 Giving everybody a chance to attain their dream. But yeah, you know. TA: 00:58:53 Yeah. I think that we're going to see, I think in the next two years we're going to see a lot of dreams getting crushed because it's getting, it's getting even harder today than it was probably a year ago. But there might be a light at the end of the tunnel in the sense that, you know, there's been a lot of distributor consolidation. There's been a lot of breweries, what they say, you know, rightsizing or trying to figure this all out. But it's a business. It's gonna eat people alive, you know? And, and that's what businesses do, right? There's, there is this, there's, there's a success rate attributed to craft beer that's not as high. I mean, it's higher than most consumer goods, and there will probably be a little bit more reckoning that will come along with it because you just can't, you just can't all swim in the same ocean. It just doesn't work. And so we're going to find some sense of corrective correlations. I mean, we're going to find smaller, you know, people are going to be making less beer for the next few years and if you're actively making more beer, you're one of the very few people that's, that's winning in that, in that space. JD: 00:59:51 It does seem like we had a real bump up in numbers of breweries that opened in 2016-2017 which is being that this is 2019. We're looking at entering the fourth and fifth year of leases for a lot of the breweries. And I think that might be a time where people are going to have to sit down and assess. TA: 01:00:11 Sure. I mean, if you've got a five-year lease and you're about to come into that fourth year, you're in the fourth year and you're now triggering the, am I going to renew? Right. I haven't, I 29 2024-01-04 Transcribed by Judith Downie �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 haven't been taking a paycheck or I've been taking very little. And then at some point you're like, are we, is this a real thing? You know, I don't, I don't know. You know, people, people certainly I think come into it, you know, really, you know, eager and excited about it. And then little by little you're, you're grinding and there's a lot of grinding going on right now, which is okay, but you know, there's, but grinding isn't fun. JD: 01:00:46 No. And when people come into it with a passion, which is a term you used earlier, passion cannot sustain you forever, unfortunately. I mean, it's what maybe gets you up the next morning, but at some point it's not paying the bills and you have managed to raise a family, you know, other people, you know, that they've got investors that may or may not understand the actual brewing industry and cause and effect and impacts. And, you know, yeah, it's going to be real interesting to see what happens. TA: 01:01:18 Yeah. I've been pretty lucky. My partnership here hasn't had an unrealistic expectation of financial return. And, and you know, so, you know, we, we opened our doors, we borrowed some money, we repaid the money, and then we've basically reinvested all of that money into the company when we needed to. So we are not sitting here saying okay, you're, you know, you were relying on us for a dividend. And you know, that doesn't, it doesn't work like that. But the, the business of beer is very difficult. And you know, you, you talked about that word passion. We, when we opened our doors, I published this list of the 10 commandments of our brewery and one of the 10 commandments was that you, you know, passion isn't something you can buy at the corner store. And I meant that with a sense of like, if you come into this, you know, you can't just throw that term around. TA: 01:02:06 Like you've got to live it and breathe it. And I think that that kind of what you were speaking to earlier is, is, has always been like, I think there's a lot of people that will say, I am very passionate about what I do. And I have been, and that's, you know, over the 20 plus years I've been doing this. That's that, that is a word that I would associate with, with getting out of bed every day. And it's been very, it's been very conducive to being successful. That being said, you don't have to be overly passionate, but you have to be, you still have to be passionate about getting out of bed every day, even when you're struggling, even when you're not killing it. And I can guarantee you right now, there's a lot of people when they're getting out of bed who used to kill it and were, you know, who thought Transcribed by Judith Downie 30 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 they were going to kill it and are saying to themselves, man, this is, this is real. Like, and you know, how do you, how do you put your game face on and, and, and really keep, keep grinding and to tackle the, you know, look, we want to get to the other side. JD: 01:02:54 Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to be a long face when your consumers come in because they're going to say, Hey, I came in here for a beer and a good time. TA: 01:03:02 I am here. I am here for a good time. Right. Any happy people? JD: 01:03:06 Oh dear. Oh dear. Something that just came to me, which is not on the list of questions, but we are sitting in the space that Stone originated at. And you had just mentioned that you've expanded. Talk a little bit about the physical plant. What was it like when you moved in as Lost Abbey? What did you have to do to it and how many times have you expanded? TA: 01:03:34 All right. So, when we took over in January of 2006 and Stone moved out to the facility in Escondido, they controlled at that point about 30,000 square feet of I think the building is 85,000 square feet. So, they had about a third of it. And when they moved out, we collapsed the entire building back down to their original suite, suite 104, and that suite is 7,500 square feet. So, we started with a 30-barrel brewhouse in 19, I'm sorry, in 2006. And we had 30, 7,500 square feet, including the tasting room, cold box, and our barrel warehouse. In 2009, I believe we moved across the parking lot and took over another 10,000 square feet and moved the cold box, all the barrels and our distribution. So, for awhile we had that space. We were up to about 17,000 square feet. 2012 or so we took over this suite that we're sitting in here, which was another 7,500 square feet. TA: 01:04:35 So that allowed us to build our packaging hall, this office, the lab, things like that. We rolled for the next few years, for the next five years. We had that 27,000 square feet of space. And then we added we added a second, third, fourth warehouse across the parking lot. And that took us to almost 40,000 square feet. And then last January we moved out of that distribution warehouse into another building here, which is now connected from the front of the street to the back. Behind us. We control 40,000 square feet under one roof line for the first time. And we moved out of the facility across the parking lot, all of our barrels and everything. So we now are under one building, one roof line. We can't drive from the packaging hall to the rest of the building. But every other building we can drive forklifts through. Transcribed by Judith Downie 31 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 01:05:30 And that never happened. Two years ago, we owned four <forklifts> ‘cause we had four different buildings. JD: 1:05:37 Now does Port distribute all the beers here in San Marcos? TA: 1:05:43 Everything comes out of this facility. We are doing a batch or two a year out of the Pizza Port facility when we need to, but we don't, it's this, this facility can handle a lot more beer than we're currently making. So most, most everything that has the word Port Brewing, Lost Abbey, or Hop Concept on it has come out of San Marcos. It's only been this year that we've brewed two or three batches of beer down the street at Pizza Port. And most of that was for efficiency to do big runs of things that we could, we did a giant Hop Freshener, Hop Concept release at Costco and needed to have beer all at the same time. JD: 01:06:15 So are you, in Costcos outside of California as well? TA: 01:06:20 No, and that has been something we haven't really tackled or looked at. JD: 01:06:23 Like it would be just an overwhelming amount of production yet I think... TA: 01:06:28 Costco's pretty, pretty keen on a lot of local these days, at least for beer. So, I don't know how relevant we would, you know, we might be able to get into some in Arizona, maybe in Washington and Northern California, but you know, there's a ton of breweries in each of those locations. Tapping the same buyer on the shoulder saying, can I get, can I get in here? And, and the buyers probably got enough options that they don't even need something from out of here. And frankly, the cost associated with getting it to them would almost make it prohibitive in terms of trying to put it on the shelf at their right price point. JD: 01:06:59 Yeah. Have you ever had to turn down any kind of requests because you just knew that trying to fill that big an order was going to just break you? TA: 01:07:09 No, we've, we've been pretty lucky in the sense that when we do get we just came off of couple of pretty good-sized Costco orders and they were about 40 pallets worth of beer. But the brewery can handle that without being too burdened in the sense. I mean, it's certainly a lot of attention on one thing but we're not overly stretched at our capacity right now. So, when those things pop up, we certainly snap at them and want, you Transcribed by Judith Downie 32 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 know we wanna make sure we execute on it. If we were making a lot more beer, we probably would have, we would struggle with that a little more. But when you get an order for 40 pallets of beer, you figure it out, you know, you really do. JD: 01:07:49 When we walked back here, we passed one of your employees building a bike. What other sorts of things do you do with the employees or for the employees to support maybe their selfeducation, other interests that they have, things like that. TA: 01:08:05 We've definitely put it on our radar this year. We've lost a lot of employees in the last two years. I think we've turned over 20 employees and we only have about 50 total. So, we've put an emphasis on that level of communication, you know, what can we do to assist you in this endeavor? It's not something that we've programmed in the past or been terribly good at. That being said, we haven't, we have really seen that there are some simple opportunities to do things like that and Tim's running his own small bike shop and it's just a, you know, it's a pocket, pocketed space here at the brewery. You know, we've announced that if there's other brewer or other brewery employees from the tasting room all the way up that have an idea, we would love to hear about it. We don't make a dime on it. There's no, there's no real emphasis towards, you know, trying to co-partner on things. TA: 01:08:56 It's just we, we want to, we want to foster the opportunities if it makes sense. And Tim's the pilot sort of program right now with the bike, the little bike shop that he's running and it gets interesting, I hope. I hope it sparks other employees to say, okay, cool, I've wanted to do this, that or the other and it looks like I could and come to us and say, ‘Oh, could you carve out this space again?’ We are, we are under more, more efficient space right now and we do have a little bit of room. So, I hope that, I hope somebody else says, okay, I want to do this and it, and it fits the needs and the use and isn't a big deal. It'd be great because it means that we can, we can continue to lift what they want to be a part of and retain them at some time. JD: 01:09:35 Yeah. Very good. It was fun. Oh, okay. Well, I think that pretty much has run through my list plus of questions for you about your career, your history, and what's going on with Lost Abbey/Port Brewing. And I want to thank you for that. And I'm going to go ahead and turn this off. Transcribed by Judith Downie 33 2024-01-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arthur, Tomme. Interview transcript. August 8th, 2019. Description An account of the resource Tomme Arthur has been involved in several San Diego breweries, most notably as founder and managing owner of Lost Abbey Brewing located in San Marcos, CA. His first professional brewing position was at the short-lived Cervecería La Cruda in San Diego, California. Arthur moved to Pizza Port Brewing in Solana Beach, California as an assistant brewer. After becoming Director of Brewing Operations for the increasing number of locations, he led the chain in garnering numerous beer awards. Arthur opened Lost Abbey Brewing in 2006 to focus on his interest in Belgian-style beers. In late 2023, Arthur separated Lost Abbey from Port Brewing operations in a ‘right-sizing’ plan in response to beer industry trends. Port Brewing retained the Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles, and Kharisma brands in their portfolio and took over the San Marcos production space and closed the tasting room. Lost Abbey entered an alternating proprietorship agreement with Mother Earth Brewing to share their production space in nearby Vista, CA. In his 2019 interview, Arthur discusses his introduction to craft beer and home brewing; entry into the profession and work at various breweries beginning in the 1990s; founding Lost Abbey Brewing and other brewery ventures; mentoring individuals in the industry; and awards. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tomme Arthur Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Ernest Cisneros Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08-08 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Lost Abbey Brewing (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08_transcript Brewchive(r) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jeff Bagby OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview February 21, 2018 SC027-053 01:43:40 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.) ; Brewers -- California -- San Diego County. ; Brewing industry -- California -- History. ; Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County. Jeff Bagby Dande Bagby Judith Downie wav BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.wav 2.0:|41(19)|72(13)|103(3)|151(11)|178(14)|221(15)|243(5)|289(4)|324(6)|347(16)|379(11)|410(7)|445(4)|482(14)|520(6)|552(9)|599(3)|638(13)|690(5)|734(8)|778(14)|816(6)|852(16)|878(9)|908(9)|934(6)|967(13)|1020(9)|1072(7)|1110(6)|1143(5)|1193(13)|1230(4)|1305(12)|1351(6)|1413(11)|1446(14)|1495(8)|1528(9)|1557(6)|1579(6)|1605(14)|1638(15)|1679(13)|1708(9)|1739(16)|1769(10)|1804(11)|1855(11)|1906(12)|1941(10)|1981(16) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a2147e643ec83629c21ffe9df0d387b8.wav Other audio English oral history Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024. &#13 ; &#13 ; Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations. &#13 ; &#13 ; Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles. &#13 ; &#13 ; Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time. &#13 ; &#13 ; In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer ; homebrewing ; introduction of craft beer to the region ; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s ; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery ; packaging and distribution ; charity work ; competitions, judging, and awards ; consumer education. Holly Sweat: Is this my copy or is this your copy? (Sweat referring to printed list of questions.) Judith Downie: You can certainly have that because I am just going to let Jeff and Dande, you know, tell me what they want because that is just a list of ideas. You certainly do not have to address anything if you feel like it is giving away company secrets or you are just not comfortable or you just forget about it and tell me something else equally interesting and informative. That’s great. I love to record what I can get. So, you know, it sounds Dande like you maybe got into this a little after Greg did. Excuse me, Greg--I just said Greg. After Jeff did. So maybe we start with Jeff talking about how did he become interested in beer or how did he get into the beer industry and--? Jeff Bagby: Okay. Yeah, so let's see. I started liking bitter beer, I don’t know, at high school, younger age. It just was something that my friends and I found--a couple of friends--who really liked the flavors. Liked the idea-- Downie: Now, were you in this area or where were you--? J Bagby: Yeah, I was born and raised in Encinitas. So, San Diego native. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: So yeah, around here. And, actually when I graduated high school, I bought that friend in particular a homebrew set for his birthday. And so, we both messed around and that was my first homebrewing foray, whatever you want to call it. Downie: Now where did you find your supplies for homebrewing up? J Bagby: Yeah, that is what I was going to say. So, you know, that's the age before the internet and cell phones and things of that nature. So, there is no-- Downie: Do you want to give me an approximate year? J Bagby: Uh, (19)93. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)92, (19)93, (19)94, somewhere in there. And, so we had known a little bit, we had heard a little bit, we had tried to go and fish beer from establishments even though we were not of age yet. But at homebrew shop you can buy anything without an ID. So, at least back then you could. So, we Homebrew Mart in Solana Beach. That's where I first met Yusef (Cherney) was actually the one that sold me the kit. Then he went on obviously to do his thing. So, kind of a cool connect there and then they kind of keep happening as time goes on. But, yeah, so we just messed around really. I mean, we re-read things, read books. Talked to brewers when we could, when we traveled, things like that. We ended up going to school together where we got more into it. We were doing all-grain batches and keeping a beer on tap at our house all the time, as well as beers like Sierra Nevada (Brewing Co.), Anchor Steam (Beer), Original Pizza, Wicked, Red Nectar, some of the Sam(uel) Adams beers. I don’t, what else we could get our hands on that we felt was better. (laughs) Downie: Now was there a bottle shop anywhere nearby where you could (unintelligible)? J Bagby: There was a few. There was in Encinitas and downtown there was Cork and Keg (Cork and Keg Liquors). There was a couple in sort of the Kearny Mesa area that were known for having, you know, hundreds of bottles and typically they were not very good. But we did not necessarily know that at the time (Downie laughs) because we didn’t know what we were tasting and not tasting. Downie: Right. Yeah. J Bagby: I did not know that some of these beers, well, they'd been sitting around on these shelves warm for, you know, a couple of years. Some of them survived perfectly fine. And most of them, you know, like, “Oh, that's what that tastes like, that's kind of weird”. So, when we can find fresh things or more exciting flavors, that was obviously a fun thing. And yeah, just like, I think anybody did back in the nineties, when you found a new bottle of beer, you kept it, or you kind of talked about it and told your friends, “Hey, I tried this, blah-blah-blah.” It was, you know, I was rating beer before there was the internet, before there was, you know, these things that we are so attached to. So yeah, that is kind of where the appreciation started and, you know, throughout college, like I said, wherever, I would go and travel, try to seek out breweries, brew pubs, if it was possible to talk to a brewer and get, you know, whatever information I could, you know. “What kind of grain did you use this? What kind of hops are in this? What is your process for this? And, oh, what size system do you have?” And, you know, it was fun to do. And I was fun to go to cities that had older, richer brewing cultures than San Diego, you know? Back then there was not even probably ten breweries in San Diego at the time. Especially none that we had real easy access to. The easiest one for, for me, ended up being Solana Beach Pizza Port (Pizza Port Solana Beach). Just because I had met people there and met the brewers there. I went there all the time and were buying homebrew supplies from down the street. So, as it grew, you know, I finished school, came back home. I worked summers at the YMCA in Encinitas running their summer camp programs. Youth summer camp programs. So, I was heavily involved in that. But I always really liked--still liked beer. Still went to festivals and— Downie: What was your degree in? J Bagby: It was communications, social science degree. You know, honestly, I just wanted to get done in the school. It is not really my thing. Downie: But you completed it, so “Yay” for you. J Bagby: Yeah, yeah, I can say I have a degree. Whoop. (Dande Bagby laughs) So yeah, came back home, worked that job or some aspect of it for a summer. And then I was hoping to stay on. I’d had several--I've worked there since I was fifteen (years old). So, I had years of experience, knew the program, knew everything and anything about it. So, it was hoping, well, maybe this will be a full-time job, because the program had grown and grown and grown in the time that I've worked there. But they didn't have a position. Good old nonprofits. So, I started just looking for a job. I was living in Cardiff with some friends and I needed money. I needed something to do. So, through the YMCA, I had a commercial driver's license to drive kids around, drive big old buses. So, I looked into driving jobs because they paid pretty well. And I could probably get one quick. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: You know, the degree did nothing for me, so. (laughs) Dande Bagby: Well, it sounds like you didn’t really want it, too. J Bagby: Well, I mean, it's not like you go, like, what industry are you going to be like? “Yeah. I have a communications degree from UC Santa Barbara,” like there, so? How's that going to help us do blah-blah-blah. There was no technology jobs. There was no social media jobs. There was no— Downie: Exactly. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) I was, I kept going into radio or like news or— Downie: (speaking at the same time) But it would have taken time to get employed, and you were saying you needed work now. J Bagby: Exactly. Downie: Which is certainly understandable. J Bagby: Exactly. D Bagby: So, think about that before we get the degree. (laughs) Just kidding. (laughs) J Bagby: So let's pay attention and talk about themselves once it’s their turn. (all laugh) D Bagby: Just saying! J Bagby: So anyway, let's see, let's see, oh, came across the job, driving job for Stone Brewing Company. And I remembered that I had been in Solana Beach the very first night they'd ever poured a beer and I'd met Greg (Koch) and Steve (Wagner) and tasted the beer. And I was like, “Oh, this would be great.” You know, I remember them, it's cool to see that they, you know, are still going and are making beer and need a driver. So, I just interviewed with Greg and told him my whole story. And he was like, “Well, obviously you're super overqualified. (Downie laughs) So, you know, you have the job.” And it was fun. It was interesting to see some side of the bar and restaurant and beer industry that I'd never seen before. Learning some of the weird rules that are still in laws that are still in effect today and delivered beer. Drove beer truck for three months. And Steve and I were at a festival. I would always hang back after I was done and talk with the brewers and see what they were making and see what was coming on and things like that. And Steve was like, “Well, we need another body in the brewery. We need somebody else.” And I was like, “Yeah, sure. I'd love to.” I was like, “Who do I give these truckies to?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So I actually found the guy that took my position as a driver. And he's still my Stone rep(resentative) today. Downie: Oh my gosh. J Bagby: Yeah. I still work for Stone in different capacity now, obviously. But yeah, he was a bartender at one of our accounts, he was actually at Pizza Port and he's like, “Oh, how's it going over there?” And “What's it like?” and I'm like, “Well, if you're interested, you could come check this out.” He was a bartender, so he could still bartend and do that. And so, yeah, he came over and I taught him the routes and boom, he was the driver and I moved into the brewery. So, I learned there, primarily from Lee Chase and Steve Wagner. Their methods to brewing, I'll say, which I still today, I think if you ask about mentors on here, definitely those two guys are some of the first. And they gave me a lot of introductions into people like Skip Virgilio, Yusef Cherney, Jack White, Chris White, Gina and Vince Marsaglia, where I spent hours in their restaurant. Several other people that are still working in beer today, and still active. And, you know, we all kind of, you know, kind of go, “Yep, you were there,” you know, when you have these people that have been open for five minutes. (Downie laughs) Not to say it's bad, but you know, it's nice to have that kind of a bond and that kind of a connection to people that remember when there wasn’t all the things that there are today. Downie: When it was a struggle. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yeah, big time. Downie: (speaking at the same time) I mean, not that it isn’t a struggle now to run a business and to start having all that, just to be in the first, the forefront of things. J Bagby: Oh yeah, there used to-- Downie: There is still some special barriers. J Bagby: When I was living in Cardiff, in driving for Stone and then actually working in the brewery for Stone, we would go to events like every weekend. Every Friday and Saturday night, you know? Because the sales reps are like, “Hey, can you guys come down and help promote?” Or, you know, whenever we went to somewhere and be like, “Hey, do you have Stone beer on tap?” And they'd be like, “What the hell is Stone?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) You know, and now you can't find somebody that doesn't know what that is. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And back then, it was totally different because people weren't paying attention. People didn't care. There was five tap handles and all five of them are taken up by mass-produced beer, you know? The Heinekens, Amstel Light, Guinness, New Castle, Bud, Bud Light, Coors Light, Miller Light, not Corona, it wasn't going on tap back then but it was in the bottle under the bar. So, it was tough. It was tough for them to gain ground and getting space. And because they came out with a Pale Ale, they were in an immediate competition with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, which had already, you know, been around for ten years at the time. So, you had that battle. You have this well, “What's, what's different from you? These guys have been doing it for a long time. They make this Hoppy Pale Ale. We've had it on tap. What's the difference?” So yeah, a lot of early struggles, a lot of, you know, almost telling--I like to say this, like Stone told people what to drink. When they came out with a beer like Arrogant Bastard and they came out with a beer like Stone IPA, and it came out with Smoked Porter that came out with these beers that no one was used to drinking and they were like, “No, you're going to like this, because this is what we have to offer. And people would taste it. And I think combined shock, new flavors, new tastes, things they'd never had before, they really grabbed onto it. And they were like, “No, this is, this is cool. I really like this.” Not necessarily knowing why or knowing what about the beer that they were actually tasting. Just that it was exciting and it was new. So, I learned to brew on that, (laughs) professional thirty barrel, professional brewhouse pretty quickly. Helped create the first Stone Barley Wine, Old Guardian. Lee and Steve and I each did five-gallon test batches. And then we, we tasted them all and created a recipe. So, that was fun. And few anniversary beers, you know, when they were taking Stone IPA and Double Stone IPA and Triple Stone IPA for the anniversary beers. Those beers just blew people's minds back then because no beer had had that kind of aroma and power on the hop side, you know? And they're not unlike a lot of West Coast IPAs that are still made today. So that was exciting. The Y(MCA) came calling somewhere in that first year, year and a half that I was in the brewhouse. I got hired at Stone in September of (19)97. And I worked there through sometime in (19)99. Okay. I'm trying to remember exactly when, but I did go back to the Y full-time because they actually have a full-time job for me and they needed the help. So, over the summers I would work a hundred-plus hours a week because I’d work a full-time job at Stone Brewing. And then I would go back over to the Y and help them with everything that they needed for the next day or for the next week of things I hired and trained. Yeah, it was crazy. Monitored staff, bus drivers, all these things while I was still working at Stone. Left Stone to do the Y thing after one of the summers, because I was like, oh, it's too much. And they were going to give me a little bit more money at Y. So, I went and did that and then got stomped on over there. Got passed over. And I was like, “You know what? I'm done with this. I've given my life to you guys and saved you guys several summers and I'm over it.” So, went back to beer, got hired at White Labs (Brewing Co.) in San Diego. I had known--by this time I had known tons of people in the industry. I had done festivals for Stone. I had worked for them in all sorts of different capacities and also knew the Pizza Port people really well. Downie: So what year--when did you get hired on White Labs? J Bagby: That was probably (19)99? Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)99, 2000? I can’t—I’m not positive on that. But somewhere in there. Because I definitely left--I left both the Y I think the--right before the 2000 summer started because they had made some really bad decisions and it bothered me. (Downie laughs) So, let's see. I worked at White Labs for-- Downie: As a brewer? J Bagby: No, as a sales kind of yeast consultant. Answer questions for people, take orders, you know. Downie: Was this at their--where they are now? Candida Street or--? J Bagby: No, this was the location before that. (Silverton Avenue, San Diego location.) Downie: Okay. J Bagby: A little--it's kind of an interesting place like offices on front, warehouse in the back, but much, much smaller than where they are now. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: But it was cool. It was definitely educational. It was neat to get to know Chris and Lisa (White) better as well as one of their other then-partners, Chris Mueller. I had already known all of them and met all of them so, it was kind of nice to get a job and work with them. And it was okay. It just wasn’t--it wasn’t exciting for me. And I wanted to get back into the brewhouse and I wanted to get back working with actual beer. So, kept in touch with Pizza Port and the people there, the whole time. I got hired at Solana Beach as an assistant brewer. And so, I was an assistant brewer there and bartender there-- Downie: And who was head brewer at the time? J Bagby: Tomme (Arthur), at the time. But we had become friends, gosh, right after he got hired there because I knew the brewer before him. And then they're like, “Oh, that's the new brewer.” So, I just like introduced myself and said, “Hey, I really like these beers here and blah-blah-blah” So we just got to chatting and hanging out and doing all sorts of different things. And you know, even when I was working for Stone, we connected just because it's, you know, another brewery in town. (laughs) And back then— Downie: Well, it shows the value of networking— J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: And knowing people, it makes a big difference. J Bagby: There's also a way to learn back then, you know? Steve and Lee were great and taught me a lot, but also learned a lot from Tomme. And I also learned a lot from a ton of other breweries that I met back in the late nineties and early two thousands. All across the state and even into Arizona. The guys at Four Peaks (Brewery Co.), still good friends of mine, even though they sold their company for who knows how much, they won’t tell anybody. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Places like Marin Brewing (Company), Anderson Valley (Brewing Company), Russian River (Brewing) now, when he was still in Temecula back then. Downie: He was Blind Pig (Brewing) back then. J Bagby: Yeah, I had met him (Vinnie) and Natalie (Cilurzo) back then. Untold numbers of, you know, going to the Great American Beer Festival (GABF) for the first time was probably my biggest eye-opener to all of that and meeting more and more people because now there was the whole U.S. and all the brewers in the U.S. in one room and back then it was easy. You could go and talk to people. I was working for a brewery at the time and that was 1997. It was my first GABF. And I'll never forget going up to people and trying beers and went, “Oh my gosh, that's awesome,” you know? And just making that acquaintance. And I know a lot of those people still today that I met that year at that GABF. So really cool stuff. And that just kept building, you know? Every time I could go to a conference, every time I could go to another out-of-town festival. Meet more people. (laughs) So, you know, at Solana, I was there for probably two or three years doing assistant brewing and bartending. And then a position opened up. I had met Tom Nickel through all of this too. Because he was good friends with Tomme. He was a part of the early Ballast Point (Brewing Company) and Home Brew Mart. Tom and I are still very good friends today and Tomme. And so, he said, “Hey.” He was working for Stuft (Pizza and Brewing) at the time before it was Oggi’s. And then when it became Oggi’s, they had one in Vista that opened, their brewer was leaving. And so he's like, “Hey, if you want a head brewing job,” I was like, “Hell yeah.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, took it. I had interviewed with a couple others. It was just, well I interviewed at Kona and just decided I didn't want to go and live on an island. (laughs) So, and there was an opportunity in my backyard, so, why not take that? So, did that for a while. That was fun. That was really the first time I got to see my influence on brewing, make a difference for somebody's beers or somebody's restaurant or somebody's beer culture, you know? It was the first time I'd won medals on my own with my own beers. You know, we'd done very well on Solana Beach. But this was cool because it was like my stuff. And worked with Tom (Arthur). He became their corporate brewer for a short time up in San Clemente. And I worked at that location for a while until Pizza Port Carlsbad had an opening for a head brewing position and that was a bigger brewhouse. That was more beer and it was more money and it was Pizza Port was kind of my first forte. So, I went back to that and ran, within a year, was running all the brewing operations on all of their pubs. Helped them open Ocean Beach. Hired, trained, promoted a ton of different brewers who are still in the brewing industry today. Yeah, you’ve got Yiga Miyashiro, the head brewer at Saint Archer (Brewing). Greg Peters, who's the head of Barrel Program there. Ignacio Cervantes, who was the head brewer of Carlsbad after I left and then took over (Pizza Port) Bressi Ranch and is now working for a new company in San Diego (Chula Vista Brewing). Noah Regnery, who also part of that company and Brandon Edwards is also a part of that company. All guys that were head brewers at Pizza Port went on to several different breweries and have all kind of come back together in one way. I'm sure there's other people. (laughs) Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: But it was a good experience and, you know, going all the way back to my Stone days, you know, Lee and I worked in this warehouse by ourselves, you know? Day in, day out. So, you get in these conversations, you're running, you know, a four head making bottling machine for eight hours while you're filtering a beer, you know? Like, you know? You are brewing, you get into conversations and you know, both of us were like, “Yeah, I really would like to own my own place at some point,” you know? And my thoughts at that time were, I'd really like to just have a beer bar or have a place because I've enjoyed that aspect of it. I enjoyed teaching people about beer, telling people about new styles and new things that were coming out or that the Pizza Port had just come out with. So, I said, “I don't know what, I just really want to my own place. And Lee was like, “Yeah, me too, me too.” So, it's funny that both of us have had that come true- Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: Over time. But in the Pizza Port years, having, you know, kind of pulled from my YMCA experiences with hiring and training people and building sort of a management approach to running the bars at the Pizza Port, they were, for lack of a better term, they were pretty chaotic and not very well managed. And the companies were, even though they were making money, hand over fist, they weren't making as much as they could because they were losing money, hand over fist because of their bar staff. So, I tightened up that. I taught their bar staff and what, you know, beer education programs, you know, you had to spend a day in the brewery with me, all of these things. And that carried on to all of the locations. And in doing that and forging that, that's when, you know, I started having conversations with Dande. We had met and I showed her--actually I was still working at Oggi’s when we met. And, you know, started talking about, well, “What do we want, what do you want to do with this? What would you do with this?” And I was like, “Oh, I want to open my own place.” And it was funny because people would come in while I was brewing in Carlsbad, say, “Oh, we're going to open a brewery.” And I was like, “Oh, cool.” Well, this is, you know, “I've been doing this for a really long time and I'm not ready yet, but you know, good on you.” Or somebody would come in who had just opened a brewery and I'd want to help support them. So, we had guest beers at Pizza Port, we would put their beer on tap and, you know? I would talk it up and everything. And then it was funny because by the time I left Carlsbad, I didn't have that approach. I was like, “Okay, bring your beers in and then I'll taste them and we'll see what we can do.” Yeah, “We'll give you some feedback or we'll see if we can get you into rotation or not,” you know? We have a big board, there's a ton of trends, and there's a ton of spots. They're almost always taken whatever the case was, but I wasn't as eager to just blindly accept the keg as I had been in the past, when there was, you know, “Let's promote local beer and let's get this scene going.” And it transferred all the way into here because now there's even more breweries. But now that I'm one of those people that's trying to sell beer to people. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: It's always so-- I get it. And, you know, hopefully, you know, the things that we had talked about before we opened and the things that we wanted to do is largely what you see today. When you come here and it's not just a beer aspect, it's a food aspect, it's a space and feel. It's also our cocktail and spirits program, wine program. All the things that we do here are things that we talked about ten years ago. Of course, it took us a very long time to get to that point. And I think we've surpassed many mountains in that process of getting to where we are, which is something that feels really good. But it's also a constant struggle when there's, you know, things that we deal with every day. And somebody asked me the other day, “Oh, would you go back and do it again?” Yeah, I would. Hopefully I know a little bit more. (all laugh) As Dande was talking about earlier with managing the construction, but it's been a crazy, crazy road. It's been fun to have been a part of San Diego beer, to have kind of put my efforts into not only just promoting the people that I worked for, but training other people into that and, you know, really teaching and promoting what good beer is and making sure that I did everything I could to make sure that San Diego was seen that way and perceived that way across the country and across the world. And I believe that I still do that today, even though there's one hundred and fifty or what odd breweries in town. I still make my efforts to make sure that that happens if that makes sense. Downie: Yeah, it does. J Bagby: Cool. Downie: So, what made you decide to basically take down Continental Motors? (J and D Bagby laugh) What made you decide on taking this piece of property and rather than taking over-- J Bagby: Good question. Downie--a building that you could just kind of refurbish? J Bagby: Yeah. Well, I kind of still ask myself that question a lot. (D Bagby laughs) D Bagby: Depends on how good the day is going. J Bagby: That 3,000 square foot warehouse looks pretty cool somedays. (laughs) No, we had a location in Encinitas that we were pretty fond of. I wanted to be the first person to make beer and Encinitas since there was one little tiny spot that was open for like nine months in downtown Encinitas called the Red Kettle. D Bagby: The (19)80s? J Bagby: And it was like (19)89 to (19)90, something like that, I think it was open. And sounded like the guy didn't know a whole lot about what he's doing. And it would be interesting to see if you find any more information on that. Downie: There’s very little on the Red Kettle. I’ve been looking. J Bagby: There's like one article you can still pull up online. Vince Marsaglia, I remember he'll tell me stories. He's told me stories about going in there and talking to the guy about brewing. But anyway, I wanted to be like, “No, I want to open up a brewery and want to, you know, it's not going to be a restaurant with the little kid in the back.” Like, yeah, I want to do that in Encinitas ‘cause Encinitas neighborhood made it look cool there. But building situation fell through. We had spent some time, even some money getting people together. We had met with everyone at the city of Encinitas. So, we knew it was going to be a bit of an uphill battle with what's going down there on the Coast. It was on Coast Highway in Encinitas, big, beautiful, gorgeous eighty-three hundred square foot building with a wooden barrel ceiling and twelve-foot brick walls. Gorgeous place. And the landlord--we had never actually spoke with the landlord. We had only spoke with his representative and he had edged us along the way. “Yeah, that's good. It's good. Yeah. That's no, he's, he wants to do this.” And we put in our LOI (Letter of Intent), you know, spent, like I said, I spent time with the city. This is what we're thinking about doing. Architects, all sorts of things. Structural engineering, because the building's old. It was an old Safeway or something, I think. D Bagby: It was a grocery store. J Bagby: Yeah, it was a grocery store at one time. That's why. And all of a sudden we just weren't hearing anything back from the rep. So, I just called them up and, “Dude, what's going on?” Like we were going forward, we think this is happening. We've heard nothing. And he just basically said, “No,” without, you know, I tried to reach out to the landlord. The owner said, “Hey, just meet me. Just--let's have a conversation.” Could never get there. And from what I hear, that guy's kind of a maniac, so I'm kind of glad we didn't get in that situation. (D Bagby laughs) But I do miss the idea of being there in that building and being in Encinitas. I think that would have been really, really cool. But-- Downie: As a hometown boy. J Bagby: (laughs) But, we took that setback. Or, yeah, it was a setback, because we were, you know, not that we'd put all our eggs in that basket, but we definitely— D Bagby: Several months. J Bagby: But, yeah, we spent several months of time on it. D Bagby: We kind of mentally moved into it too. You start to really put yourself there and how to Jeff, as you mentioned earlier, like, we had been talking about these ideas that you now see here for a long time. And so, you start to sort of layer those ideas over the space and figure out how things might go. And, it was really--it was a huge disappointment. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But we got over it pretty quickly and moved on and... J Bagby: Yeah. So, we decided to, not to stop, but to kind of regroup. We got married and after we got married, we decided to enlist the help of a commercial real estate. So, we, through some friends we found a really good broker. And he gave--started just giving me--I met with him--he gave me no less than I think a hundred properties throughout the county to look at. And we had already found out a little bit on our own through some other connections, you know. Basically, no one's going to give you any cash. If you're in a strip mall, you're going to be paying even though, your rent might be lower, you're going to be paying other fees that make that rent go back up. And they basically only take national conglomerate stores that have very, very deep pockets these days. Not too many private strip malls out there taking breweries and first-time owners and let alone, “Oh, you want to open a restaurant and a brewery? Okay, yeah. High risk, high risk. No, don't do it, all those things.” So, we sought out to find private owners and properties that started to fit what we what we had or what we wanted on there, which was coastal North County, enough space for a restaurant, enough space to have a decent sized brewery, and a space that will allow for indoor-outdoor dining. We love the aspect of letting people or giving the people the opportunity to eat outside in this gorgeous weather that we have almost year-round. So, I'd never thought about Oceanside, but I knew that anything in between Del Mar and Carlsbad was going to be extremely expensive and extremely difficult to find. Especially for the uses that we wanted to do. You know, we were trying not to have a conditional use permit. We're trying not to deal with the (California) Coastal Commission. We're trying to get into a spot where we could build or remodel, I should say, for the most part. Downie: Yeah (laughs). J Bagby: But pretty much ended up re-building. If you saw what we did to this place before we rebuilt it— Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: We basically tore it down. Anyway, he gave me a list of seven, eight properties in Oceanside here. So, I just grabbed my camera, my notebook, and my bike and rode them all. And I came across this one and it was--you could go all the way around it, but you couldn't see much. Where the brewery is now, were solid roll-down doors. It was their maintenance garage. Up front was a showroom, so, I could look in the windows there. That building to the south, you can kind of look in there too, but you couldn't tell what was exactly going on over here. You can see a little bit, all closed, looked like it had been, somebody had moved out. And so, in my head it just started clicking and I'm like, “Oh, what if that was there? And what if we put, you know, the brewery in here? What if we did this here?” I took, I don't know, fifty pictures of the place looked at the other properties and went home and told her. I'm like, “I found it.” And she's like, “What are you talking about?” D Bagby: You actually called me from the space. (J Bagby laughs) J Bagby: I’m like, “It's an old car dealership.” She’s like, “You're fucking insane.” I’m like, “Get in a car, come down here.” (all laugh) D Bagby: It’s basically what happened. J Bagby: (laughs) So, yeah, we just kind of went from there. We told our broker, “Hey, can you, you know—" super sensitive about contacting the realtor—realtor rep, landlord, anything like that. D Bagby: Because of our experience in the industry. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: We wanted to make--just kind of proceed cautiously. And we did not have our hopes up. We had no idea what they would--what their response would be to any kind of inquiry. J Bagby: We obviously originally thought that they wanted car dealerships to take it over again. Just because they were set up that way. They have the lifts, they had the excess parking. They had, you know, frontage on South Coast Highway. There's seven other places, you know? So, we thought that's what they were going for. And they originally, they kind of said, “Yeah,” because use is that, it'd be easy for their somebody to just take it over. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And a couple of inquiries they had because the space was so big and nobody wanted it all. They would want just that building or just the parking lot, or just part of this main building, main parcel. So, I said, “Well, we're kind of interested in all of that.” (laughs) And so anyway, the original conversation with rep-between-rep, the idea of a brewery got brought up by the rep from here and unsolicited-- D Bagby: By their broker, yeah. J Bagby: Unsolicited from our broker at all. And I was like, “Yes. Okay, cool.” And so, I'm like, “Hey, can we get in it? Can we look around and see what's going on?” So, the very first day we came to look at it and the landlords was here, the owners were here. And they wanted to meet us and they wanted to hear about what we wanted to do. And if we thought the space would work. And they're still friends of ours today. They still come in here and eat. His father was from Bamberg, Germany, which is a huge brewing scene in Germany and malts. There's two big malt companies in Bamberg. Then I said, “Well, I buy malt from Bamberg.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, we had this, you know, this back and forth. Their son is into beer. And he really liked the idea of the legacy of the property that his father had started going into another family business of some kind. I think that probably in the end was what attracted them the most to us. But we poured our hearts out like, “Hey, this is what we want to do. And we totally get it. Like, you know, we've never opened a business. This is a huge spot. We have to raise a ton of money.” All these things, but we really want to do it.” And they went for it. D Bagby: Much to their credit, honestly. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: They took a big risk on us. And, it's a big point of pride for Jeff and I-- J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: -- to count them among legitimately among friends. And, we're just, we're so grateful to them for just being open-minded. It was their family's business that was here and then that they had to close and they still own the property. And they, you know, we have a long long-term lease and several options. So, we don't own the space. I'm sure the property will stay in their family forever, which I think is fine. It's perfect. But they just really--they were very interested in us as people and-- J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: --what our vision was and what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it. And I think that aligned, even though they're totally different industries, it really aligned with their values. And, yeah, much to— Downie: Their European background. D Bagby: Yeah, definitely that that's probably part of it. (laughs) But I remember when they finally agreed, it was sort of like, obviously it's exciting, but it's also instantly terrifying. Downie: Yeah. D Bagby: You don't--And we didn't even realize at the time what we had just done, I don't think. (Downie D Bagby laugh) J Bagby: It took me six weeks to get the lease exactly where we wanted it. D Bagby: At least. J Bagby: And it's like, I think it's sixty pages of like, eight, nine-point font. It's like line-by-line and you just, you have to know, “Okay, what does this lawyerese mean?” And then go and read through and go, “Okay, no, that's what we don't agree with. Here's the change we need,” you know? And so, we just--the back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And then we start with contractors interviewing contractors, and that is a whole fiasco in and of itself because they're intense. And they realized that in the end, throughout this thing, I think they realized that their relationship is never going to be a great one, just because of the nature of the industry. D Bagby: It can’t. J Bagby: It just can't. There's too many variables and there's too much money and there's too much time involved for--I've never met anybody who was like, “Yeah, I loved my GC. My project went amazing.” They're full of shit. D Bagby: It’s like a disposable relationship in a weird way. J Bagby: Yeah, you just-- D Bagby: You need them, they you need but then it's over and we're done. We don't want to see you again kind of thing. It's terrible, but that's just kind of the nature of it. Downie: Now did your general have any background in building a brewery? J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) No, in restaurants. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) In restaurants. J Bagby: Yeah, restaurants, and commercial or retail. But mostly restaurants and bars is what we were attracted to him for. D Bagby: Small company also--J Bagby: Smaller company. Had the reputation of being able to do something like thisD Bagby: Had worked with the architect— J Bagby: Yeah, he had worked with our architect on a project before and yeah, I mean the architect firm went down in flames pretty quick. (D Bagby laughs) I realized, oddly enough, we got an apology email from him last week, which was--D Bagby: A little late. J Bagby: Frustrating two years later. But, yeah, they just weren't equipped and we didn't know that they weren't equipped. D Bagby: We didn't know enough to know that. J Bagby: Yeah. And then, you know, I spent countless hours going to the counters at the city to talk to the engineers, to talk to the-- D Bagby: The building inspectors. J Bagby: The building inspectors and just going back and forth. “No, we need this. Okay.” So, because I'm trying to facilitate--we're trying to facilitate this project and keep it moving. And there's obviously no one in the world has any incentive, but, or the most incentive than us to get it done. And so, we're just, like she said, we just took it on. We project managed, we--every day, we'd come here and walk through and see what was done wrong or what hadn't been done or why isn't, so-and-so working today, you know? And part of that was on the GC, part of that was on their architect, and they both fell down. The architect first and then the GC. We went through five superintendents here on our project to the general contractor. Downie: Oh dear. J Bagby: And by the end I was like, “Him or no one else.” And so, we got this last guy just to get through and get our building final then and everything. But you name a discipline, you name a part or a section or a wall. I spent time on it. She spent time on it. It's--so now, you know, we're like, we're telling them, we're like, “You guys get to go, you guys get to pack up your shit and leave.” And we get to turn around and actually do what we wanted to do six months ago, or, you know, a year ago. D Bagby: When we started construction, yeah. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: When we thought we’d be done, especially. J Bagby: We, you know, we need to spend time on--I mean, we're still taking on investors, but we have to start the project. We're still searching out for investors. We're still trying to find our key executive management team and how the hell we're going to run this place. I'm still trying to figure out how to get the rest of the brewery finished off and actually making beer because we didn't want to open without our own beer. And it was just, you know, just kept on, I didn't, I think I lost forty pounds and that last like six months of the other projects before we opened, just because I could never eat, I could never sleep. And I was constantly doing something on a project that sent my stress levels through the roof. So, it was very-- D Bagby: And then you get to operate your business. J Bagby: Yeah, and then you open and you know, there's five hundred people here on a Saturday and they all want food and beer. Downie: Excellent. D Bagby: Which is great, yeah. I mean, there is that question. I mean, you just, you don't know until it happens when you open the door for the first time. Is anybody going to be here? And I know that sounds ridiculous when you think of the size of this and even just people curious. Obviously, there will be people that are curious that are cruising by, but you really don't know. I mean, it is, you don't--you don't really let yourself think that because you can't. You just have to continue to stay true to your goal and your vision. And once you start, you can't stop. I mean, it's go time. And so, when you do finally open the doors, it's amazing. It is. It's kind of amazing that people are here. And I remember the first, like week we were open, it felt really strange that there were people here I didn’t know. I was like, “Who are these people? Oh, shoot. They're supposed to be here. That's right.” (Downie laughs) It was just very weird. And we had spent so much time here over the, you know, proceeding two years that it was--it was home. We were here three hours to one, the number of hours, or four hours to one, the number of hours we would spend at home for sure. And so, this was home. And so, we knew every contract, we knew every subcontractor. We knew everybody. And they knew us. And so, when it was time to let strangers in, (laughs) it was weird. But, you know, you get over that pretty quickly. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: Because they are spending money. Downie: Of course, talking about the ‘curious’ issue, are you going to come back? D Bagby: Yeah, of course. Downie: Because just a one-time visit isn't going to keep you going. D Bagby: That’s right. Yeah, that's right. And that's still something that's, you know, on the operational side that we are always striving for. We want to be that place that people are like, “I can't wait to go back there.” We're still young though. And I that's the counterpoint to that is first of all, never stop trying. I mean, there's always something we can do better, always something we can refine. Always a better way or a more efficient way or a way that's going to make our guests happier. So, we are always pushing. We never, ever stopped. And I don't think we ever will. That's just our personalities. And luckily, it's the same--those personality traits are reflected our management team. So, they all feel the same way too. There's absolutely nobody on that team that is not completely there with us. Ready to just keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And our staff, it goes all the way to them. The people that are attracted to a place like this to work here. They, you know, they like that it's family. They liked that it's unique and different. They like that we're always pushing the envelope, trying to come up with cool new things or new ways or whatever the case. And so, it starts to draw in people who are naturally attracted to that. And so, they have a really kind of an inherent flexibility that is critical, but we couldn't have scripted that. I didn't really realize that, but it is true. We are--we ask a lot of them. We ask them to be very nimble and to do something very different one day than they did the day before, because we're trying to— J Bagby: Sorry, I’ve got to go downstairs and talk to them for a minute. D Bagby: Okay. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: Okay, I'll be right back. I got to set up a potential account with some tasting. D Bagby: Doing some tasting. Do you want to bring them upstairs for a taste? J Bagby: You did ask a question and that was what attracted us to this? Just going to finalize that and say the space. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) D Bagby: Yeah, the space for sure was the deciding factor. But when he called me from here and I've told this story before, and he said--I asked, you know, the data, like, how big is it? What's going on? And when he started to rattle off the statistics, I'm like, in my mind, “There's no way this is going to happen. (Downie laughs) There's no way.” And then every little hurdle you cross over, you knock that domino down and then pretty soon you're signing your lease. And it still doesn't really feel real until then. And then even then it doesn't feel real until— Downie: But you've been disappointed once already so-- D Bagby: Yeah. Downie: So it was kind of like you don't exactly want to get too invested— D Bagby: Once you sign the lease though, and you are a personal guarantee on that. It's yours. And so, then it's like, what do you do with that? Because there is a certain amount of money that if you just--even if you decide to never do anything with it, you're paying on your own personal account for that. So, and we knew that it was a big risk of the landlords, the owners. We knew that we wanted to not disappoint them too, as another layer in all of this. But I really didn't believe it was going to happen until it started happening. (laughs) And then the train was going and there was no stopping it, which is good. Downie: Yeah. So, what about your background, Dande? As far, as you know, you said you worked in a Fortune 500 company. Well, what's your path that got you here? And to actually be supportive of something that you could have very easily said, “No, I don't want to do this.” D Bagby: Yeah. I still do say that sometimes. No, I'm just kidding. No, my background is really weird. But somehow it all sort of feeds into to all the things that we do here. So, I worked in restaurants in high school and a little bit in college. I ended up working for a very small sort of family-run or just a couple of friends started the small kind of Mexican food chain. It was a kind of a spinoff from the Rubio’s chain. So, they had helped Ralph Rubio start Rubio's and they started their own thing. And so, I, you know, started working there my first restaurant job and worked my way up into management. And I'm still friends with the owners of that. They've since sold it all off, but it was really exciting to be a part of a small, very small and growing company. When I first was hired by them, they had one location. And then ultimately, I think they had seven or eight. Not when I worked there, but at the end of the sort of end of the line for them. And what happened though, was that they set the bar really high. I mean, they treated this little single location, you know, eight hundred square foot taco shop. They treated it as though it was a corporate--very, very organized, very dialed in, very high-quality, high standards when it came to customer service and food service and all of that. Even though it was a walk-up counter. So that was my only exposure to restaurants was that. And so, it really, it changed how I saw things, whether it was from a business perspective or from a restaurant perspective. And that was sort of, that became my benchmark, for how to be. How to be a manager, how to be managed, how to treat employees, all of that stuff began then. And it was my first real job was there. And I worked there for many years while I was--and then I went to school--my degree is in biology from Cal State San Marcos (California State University San Marcos). Downie: My goodness. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. So, I was a molecular cell biology major. But, before that, I wanted to be a zoologist. So, I started at Palomar and my very first class, my very first semester of college at Palomar, was as zoology class. And it was just life science, check the box, get that out of the way. And I fell in love with it and it was everything. I loved it. It was--my instructor was amazing. I don't think she's alive anymore. Dr. Jessup was her name. And she was a genius and I just wanted to absorb a hundred percent of everything she could teach me, I wanted to learn it. And so that kind of led me-- I worked for the Zoological Society of San Diego for about seven years. So, I left restaurants and did that and finished my degree at Cal State and left. And I taught biology and environmental science at the high school level. I taught labs--biology labs--at the junior college level for a few years. And then ultimately worked for SDG&amp ; E (San Diego Gas &amp ; Electric Company) in their Environmental Science Department. And, that's about when I met Jeff. So, I had done all of this sort of teaching and I hadn't worked in a restaurant in a long time. And when he and I first met, he had, like he said, he had beer on tap, both at Oggi’s in Vista where he had been the head brewer and at Pizza Port Carlsbad. And I had always liked beer, but I knew absolutely nothing about it. It was completely foreign to me. I didn't even--it didn't really occur to me that it was something that you could learn about. It just sort of was a thing that existed. And of course that's--couldn't be more wrong (Downie laughs) even then in 2005, even then. And so he's like, “Well come and let's taste some beer at in Vista.” So, we went out there and he just did the tasting, not a flight. I mean he pulled--we had tasters of every beer that was on tap. There must've been a dozen beers or more. And he kind of just lined them up how you would want somebody to kind of learn about beer. And he just was like, “Okay, what does it look like? What does it smell like? What does it taste like? Where do you think that's coming from? What is that? Did you do--?” you know? I remember specifically the hefeweizen he's like, “Do you think we added anything to make that taste like that?” And I was like, “Well, yeah, you probably added some fruit or you added some spice.” And absolutely not. Just from the yeast, and that tied into my biology background. Downie: Right. D Bagby: And understanding sort of a little bit about, you know, yeast chemistry, yeast metabolism. And then it started to click. I was like, “Okay, this is cool.” And then of course that led into ales and lagers and how they're, you know, metabolized differently. And all of the life cycle and all of that stuff. And so that really kind of itched, or what do you say, like “Scratch that itch” or whatever that science-y stuff. I really, really appreciated on the cellular level, which I had kind of departed from working in environmental science. So, that was a really huge eye-opener and that was kind of it for me. So, we tasted through all the beers and that created this sort of framework for me that I still rely on today. That's just sort of styles and, you know, parts of the world. And, you know, this is like this. And that's like, you know, whether it's hops in English IPA versus an American IPA and why and how, and, even just the physical I'm like, “I don't know what hop is. I have no idea.” So, he went and he grabbed a handful of hops and was like, “This is what they are. This is what they smell like. This is what they look like. This is where they're grown.” Of course, that led into hop harvest. And that led into fresh hop beer. And I remember specifically that season going down to-- because he still was bartending. So, he had, he left Pizza Port or--excuse me, he left Oggi’s and Vista and he was head brewing in Carlsbad and he was still bartending at Solana Beach. And I lived in Cardiff at the time. And so, I would go visit him on his bartend. I think he would work Wednesday nights and same thing. He'd be like, “Well, taste this, have a taste of this.” And I specifically remember fresh hop beers that season because it was unlike anything I'd ever had before. They were--it was just amazing to me. It was this bouquet of--it really tasted like drinking flowers. And that was really exciting. So, every new experience was just something to be learned. Unlike Jeff, I loved school, I loved being a student. I loved studying and I still do. I still love to learn. So does he, but even in that, even in an academic setting, I loved at all. And so it created this never-ending quest for information and knowledge and then that tied into experience. And so, when we would travel to whether it was in California or abroad or wherever, it creates this sort of, I don't know, structure, if you will. This kind of map or pathway for learning that, you know, whether it's about people or history or the ingredients and where they came from. And so that became, it became a passion of mine as well. And this was pretty close to right away. So, you know, within the first year or so of us dating, you know, we were going to events, we were traveling for beer. We were, you know, it just became part of our shared thing. But also, I loved learning from him too. And, yeah, and he's right. We started talking about opening a place, or that he wanted to open a place, pretty quickly. I mean, it was certainly not something that was going to be happening anytime soon, but it was again part of the discussion. And so, when you're traveling somewhere, you're going--his family, his father's side is from Northern Arizona, Prescott. Little town called Prescott. So, you know, we were traveling out there once or twice a year to visit his grandfather and kind of hang out and there's Prescott Brewing Company. So, we'd go there and just kind of talk about whether it was the beers or the styles or the hop choices or whatever to--do you think how’s the service? Is that are--what would we do differently? What about the glassware? Does this seem right? And--or how's the check presented? I mean, everything, it just became part of the fabric of what we talked about. And, yeah, that lasted and it's still true. It's still true today. And we go places and we look at how just the, how the operational side, how people are solving their own problems and you know, are those things we can borrow or are they things that we would never do because they don't fit with who we are. So that's how, that's the weird biology-biologist into brewery owner. Downie: Everybody comes from somewhere. D Bagby: That’s right. Downie: Actually, you know, like you say, the whole hops chemistry. You know, Jackie Trischman in Chemistry at Cal State (University San Marcos) is working with Stone investigating hops chemistry. D Bagby: That’s awesome. Downie: So, you know, Bonnie Bade (Cal State University San Marcos) in Anthropology is medicinal plants, Native American medicinal plants, and looking at how those can be incorporated into beers and things, so… D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: So, it's--you can pull a whole lot of different disciplines and interests and experiences into-- D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: The whole world of beer. D Bagby: Absolutely. And that, and the whole historical piece too, is something that both Jeff and I are really passionate about. And that's a big reason why we have such diversity in terms of the beer styles that we brew here. He brews here because of that. They, you know, a Belgian blonde brings us--brings us back to Brussels. It brings us back to visiting with our friend Yvan (De Baets) from (Brasserie) de la Senne, you know? That to us is a big reason why we wanted to do this also is to bring pieces of these experiences that we've had all over the world right here. And if somebody is able, isn't able, or doesn't know they want yet to go to Belgium or they don't know they want to go to Germany or maybe they never will, you know? If we can bring a little piece of that to them, that's whether it's the beer, the glassware, the, you know, a little bit of history lesson through our employees. That's all--that's a big, that's a huge piece of this for us. So having a big staff is a challenge. Per slight understatement. Downie: How many employees do you have? D Bagby: We have about sixty employees now. Yeah. Which is the smallest staff we've ever had. We--when we first opened and you always open with more than you need, but we had over a hundred employees at one point. Downie: Wow. D Bagby: Which is a big, huge thing. Lots of people. J Bagby: Through all of that, through all of the construction, through all of the opening and employees (unintelligible), I like to tell people that absolutely nothing surprises me anymore. D Bagby: No J Bagby: Nothing. D Bagby: No, no. J Bagby: I've heard it all, seen it all at all. Been through it all. Yeah. Downie: And you're still standing. D Bagby: Yeah. We are. Yep. Downie: So, you've already said that you really don't look to expand beyond this site and it seems like it's large and you have plenty of elbow room but— J Bagby: We could even expand onsite because we have a building that we haven't really even touched--(speaking at the same time) D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Touched. Yeah. Downie: You’re kidding. D Bagby: Yeah. Downie: So you have expansion elbow room. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. Downie: But since you're not canning beers now, what are your plans for the future in, you know, distribution or canning or--? J Bagby: So, we've gone back and forth. What--we looked pretty seriously at purchasing a canning line. Mike Hess (Mike Hess Brewing) was selling theirs. So, I went down and looked at it, kind of ran some numbers and looked at it. But we wouldn't have been a good idea for cashflow for one thing. And the other was, we didn't have that output really. So, we'd have this really-- D Bagby: Beautiful. J Bagby: Nice canning line and it would be lovely to put a ton of beer in cans, but no output for it. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: Which, you know, cart before the horse or not, or whatever, it's sometimes you just have to jump in. And so, we decided not to at that point, but it is something that's on the mind, especially with a lot of our beers that tend to be growing in popularity and that we think would be really good in a package or in the proper package. So, that's still a possibility. But we haven't decided what step we're going to take first in doing that. So, there is a possibly of that in the next year or two, three. Other than that, I really want to continue pushing our draft distribution because it's something that we can do in the framework that we have. We have the beer, we have cooperage, we can get more cooperage very easily. And the capital outlay isn’t as much, and the space requirement is not as much or as intense as packaging. What else, what else? D Bagby: We one hundred percent self-distribute in California. So, we don't have a distributor anywhere. J Bagby: Out of state we have (unintelligible). D Bagby: Out of state, yeah, we (unintelligible). J Bagby: We’re not sending a lot out beer of out of state, yeah. (Aside to D Bagby, Forgot to tell you I talked to Matt Bonney yesterday about Washington.) D Bagby: Oh, okay, cool. J Bagby: So, we'll do some stuff up there, but anyway. (laughs) D Bagby: There you go. Heard it here first before I even heard it. (laughs) No, just kidding. J Bagby: And he called me during the party. D Bagby: Yeah. So self-distribution. We want to do that as long as we can. As a young business, (unintelligible), the margins on draft wholesale beer are already pretty, pretty low. So, you want to try to maximize as much revenue as you can at this stage of a business. There's also a lot of interesting things happening. I try to kind of dial into this a little bit as much as I can. There's a lot going on with this whole notion of hyper-local and, you know, being the kind of brewery that, and there are lots of them, that have these humongous, very ambitious goals to be in every state or to be in twenty states or to be all over the place right now. And I certainly don't disparage that, that's part of their business model and that's what they think is awesome. Go for it. But it's really feeling a lot like people are more, appreciating more and more, what's right near them. And you see certain breweries that are drawing back from that, that broad scale distribution more and more-- J Bagby: Or just staying where they are. D Bagby: Or are just staying where they are, yeah. They say steady is the new growth. So, I think we're just, we're kind of a cautious company. We don't take a lot of big risks. Maybe because we have such a gigantic property here and so much going on that we don't have to. I mean, we don't even have the energy really to make big plans. But, no, we do talk a about what's next and where, where are we going to grow. And I do think even locally--we, you know, Jeff said, when he tries to sell someone beer, we actually haven’t actively sold any beer. Every drop of beer that hasn't been sold over our bar here at the pub has been somebody coming and saying, “Hey, I want to have your beer on at my place.” So, they reach out to us either, you know, usually via email. J Bagby: That’s who I just met downstairs. And he is a friend, but they came to us to taste. More traditional sort of setup like, “Hey, can you send your rep by and bring some of your beers? I'd like to taste them on tap.” D Bagby: Yeah, we do not have a rep. (laughs) J Bagby: I'm the rep. D Bagby: We don’t have one of those. Yeah. (J Bagby laughs) Part of it is too--and so that’s, it’s kind of nice that that’s, because then we know the accounts that have come to us really already get it. They already understand what we do and appreciate that enough to reach out, but we do not, we understand that is not sustainable. And the growth that we really do want to realize on the wholesale side is only achievable with some outreach. And that’s something that is--we know, we both acknowledge that that’s really important. But we also, again talk about kind of risk aversion. We were—it's still too close to us. We don’t want to just hire a sales rep and tell them to go out in the world and sell the beer. It’s really hard to let go of it and to, you know, just be those, just say, “Oh yeah, go for it. Volume volume. Get it.” Because it still really matters to us who’s pouring it. How they’re pouring it. Are they taking care of the kegs? Is the glassware appropriate? Is it clean? Are the lines clean? All we need is somebody to have a beer like this Kölsch that I'm drinking that is so delicate. And such a light beer that, you know, if it’s not cared for it is going to be flawed. And you know, most people don't drink a beer and think that they don’t like and think that it isn’t the brewer (laughs) or the brewery. Most people do not say, “Oh, those lines must be dirty. That's why this does not taste right.” So, it’s just cautious and definitely overly cautious. I’ll say we are very careful. And, you know, that’s, at some point we're going to have to start peeling our fingers off those kegs a little more forcefully and get out there in the world and really see. We hear from time to time that people believe that we just don't have any beer to sell. Because we aren’t actively selling it, which isn’t true. We make a lot of beer and we sell a lot of beer over our own bars, but we definitely have some volume that could go out much more than it is. So, we’re working on it. Got our hands pretty full. (laughs) Downie: Now, this is something, you know, because you are both cautious people, but what if something happened and your landlord decided to sell the property? J Bagby: So, there's provisions in our lease that say that I can’t change our lease. Downie: Okay. Downie: It was very protective. D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: It was very protected line by line that thing to make sure things like that like they couldn’t say, “Oh, we are going to sell a parking lot to a developer for apartments.” They can’t do that, you know? So, if they sell it our lease stands. D Bagby: And we can buy it too, we have to be considered. J Bagby: We don’t have first right of refusal. D Bagby: Something else called that. J Bagby: Their landlord or their rep did not want to give that--our landlords have kids. I would not see them giving up this property to somebody unless we just came by and plopped the amount of money on them, which can happen. And, you know, I know that the people that own these shops kind of behind the alley-- D Bagby: West of us. J Bagby: The other side, are trying to develop it and turn it into apartments. J Bagby: I'm like, that is a six-year project. If Coastal Commission-- D Bagby: It’s the Coastal Commission. Downie: Yeah, it’s a coastal commission. Will even allow it. D Bagby: Yeah, if the city-- J Bagby: We are so lucky to avoid those things, you know? We don’t have a conditional use. It was in the beginning we had some neighbors that were complaining. And I think it was just because people were parking on the street. It’s public parking on the street. And they were just getting mad because they used to park in front of their house at a certain time of night. And it wouldn’t be a problem. You know, because we’re—anyway. Somebody came and complained and said, “Oh, well, I'm going to go to the city. And you know, I’ve already started signatures to get your conditional use removed and dah-dah-dah.” And I was like, “Well, that’s cool, but we don’t have a conditional use.” And (the city has nothing to do over what we do here as a business. Because we’re permitted as a right. So, (whispers) sorry about that. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah, it was, we haven’t really, honestly, for being as close as we are to residential, we have had virtually no issues other than the first probably month we were open where people were kind of caught off guard maybe by the volume. But that’s, I mean, at least as far as I'm aware, we haven’t had any issues. We haven’t had any issues. J Bagby: I had a couple of things. There was that one guy that, you know, I think he just wanted to come in and kind of rant. And I was nice to him. I just let him go. And when I said, you know, “I want to work with you. I want to work with the community, but you got to realize that, you know, the streets are public parking and unless you get that changed, which you're perfectly willing to try to try to do, but I don't believe the city is going to let you just for your spot in front of your house. And you know, I want to help you. We have the required parking that we're supposed to have for the use that we have here per our agreements with the city. And, you know, really sorry if there's any incidents or things that, you know, please feel free to call us.” Like just, you know, kill them with kindness kind of thing. And you know, reminded him that he really could not do anything about it. D Bagby: Yeah, you live on a commercial zone, basically the boundary of a residential and commercial coming together. And that can be a challenge, especially because there wasn't anything here, no operating business for years. And even when the dealership was still going, I mean, they wouldn't--there wasn't so much parking demand. Yeah. That would have ever affected them. So, I get it. I would be upset too, probably, but— Downie: But yeah. And change is always going to have somebody not happy. D Bagby: Absolutely. That's true. Yeah. Sweat: I actually have to go. I'm overseeing an event in Encinitas here in a second, so I have to run. D Bagby: I hope you don’t run into any traffic. Sweat: We’ll see what happens. (laughs) Downie: It should be pretty good by now. Sweat: I'll follow up with you tomorrow just to make sure you have everything you need and just see what any next steps are. But, let me know in the meantime if you need anything. Downie: Thank you, Holly. D Bagby: Thanks Holly. Downie: I wish you a safe and easy drive. Sweat: Thank you, I know. D Bagby: I hope so too. Holly, we'll look at those pictures today, too. I know you guys are asking and we just have had a crazy few days. Sweat: Yeah, we know with your party. D Bagby: Yeah. (laughs) Sweat: It looked like a lot of fun. D Bagby: It was a lot of fun. Sweat: And honestly, if you are only able to decide on like, a few, I could do the ones of Jeff just to get them to see. D Bagby: Yes, I'll do that tonight before I leave. For sure. And how many do we need to give her? Total? Or selection? Sweat: It’s in the email, like, how many you guys agreed to pay for. D Bagby: I can’t remember. Sweat: It might be one or two or Jeff. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: That we agreed upon. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: But yeah. D Bagby: Thank you. Sweat: It’s nice to see you both. D Bagby: You too. Drive safe. Downie: So, if you can still give me a little more time. I know I had just an hour, so I don’t (unintelligible)--. J Bagby: Sure. I might check in on that account in a minute, but yeah, if you have some more questions, for sure. Downie: You both sound like you're very, very invested in education, you know, which is a wonderful thing. What would you say, I mean, do you support any charities or causes through the brewery that you feel like you want to talk about? Or, are there plans to expand your reach into, you know, goodwill gestures besides listening to irate neighbors? (all laugh) J Bagby: It's hard, you know? We get approached almost every day about some sort of donation for something. We have an outlet on our website where you can fill out a form and apply. And while we like supporting charities and the community, it's difficult because there are so many of them. And we like to look at the ones that either we've supported either personally in the past, or that we have a connection to through a family member or a very good friend. Where we can say, “Okay, you know, this is important to us because of this.” You know, while we like also doing this, we're also running a business. So, at some point you can't--you have to close the doors a little bit on it and say, “Look, we want to help you out. But you know, you're asking—" we could do it. The easiest thing for us to do is donate beer. But the hardest thing for us to donate is beer because of the licensing required for the nonprofit to actually get it. And they don't understand that. Downie: I’ve run into that. (laughs) J Bagby: And we always have to be the one that's like, well, “We'd love to help you out, but there's this, this, this, and this.” Downie: Yeah, and more education. And what Stone did—because I approached Stone about some beer to maybe put into a scholarship raffle that we do through the Society of California Archivists I belong to. And it was, “Well, what did the ABC (California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control say?” And then I ran into the ABC and I just went, for the permits we'd have to get, it's just, you know, it would eat up what little money we would make. So, and I understand that completely because (unintelligible). D Bagby: Yeah, we’ve seen it. But, with that said, we are involved. J Bagby: Yeah, I mean, we just had two weeks ago or, not this past week and the weekend before, we had a gigantic breast cancer benefit festival on our parking lot that a lot of our staff members donate their time to. We donate beer to, we donate food to—yeah, we donate space. And basically, we host the charity. And that was something that I started with the woman who founded the festival back at Pizza Port. Downie: Is that Brewbies? J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's the biggest one that we have. And then this one that we just had almost raised almost fifty thousand dollars for charity. Downie: Wow. Wonderful. J Bagby: And so, you know, knowing that and having been involved with this one for nine of them now, and being in the beer industry in general, I'm always getting asked, I'm very diligent about when we get a request for a festival because sometimes, first and foremost, sometimes the festival isn't necessarily great for the charity. There'll be a promotional company--excuse me, that we'll get out there, go up to a charity and say, “Hey, we can make you five thousand dollars if you pull the license for this,” you know? But they don't realize the potential risks involved or the insurance liability that they have to take on, different things like that. And the production company ends up taking the majority of the money because the proceeds. Now it's illegal because one hundred percent of it with that one day ABC license is supposed to go to the charity. Downie: Right. J Bagby: So, if someone squats, the ABC can say, “Hey, we need to see your books.” And then not only does the charity get in trouble, which they may not even be aware of. Downie: Right. J Bagby: But that promotional company, and even the breweries could get in trouble because they donated to it. Another thing is on our side, not only are we just donating beer but probably donating two people's full day’s worth of time to get the beer ready to go to the event, to get all the equipment together, to drive to wherever it might be to set up, to pour, take it all down and bring it all back home, clean it all. And so, people don't realize what really goes into it on our side when we're donating. We're not just donating a beer, we’re donating quite a bit more so we're pretty diligent about those. But that's really the easiest way for us to support a charity or a community event, unfortunately. Downie: But those are facts that, you know, people need to be aware of. And you both talked about how much learning you've had to do along this path. D Bagby: We’ve done some kind of other fundraisers, though. J Bagby: Yeah, we've done some onsite things. D Bagby: There have been a couple of military things that we've supported and— J Bagby: And the dogs, yeah. D Bagby: So there's a few things that we really, really kind of key into that mean a lot to us. But yeah, I think as a— J Bagby: Firefighter-- D Bagby: Pint Project. J Bagby: Yeah. A couple of onsite things that were pretty successful and, you know, we're just--you get back to this, like you can't do them all, you know? And as not nice as it sounds, it does need to benefit us in some way as well. Because we are offering up a lot when we do these things and why we want to help the community, we want to help these people that need help in some way, we just have to be careful. D Bagby: Yeah. Exactly. Downie: Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, not every charity is a 501(c ) or is required and you get into all kinds of thin ice. So, very understandable. But, no. D Bagby: Now that's one of the things that I think is a benefit to us as Jeff has made it his mission and his absolute business to know as much as he can about ABC licensing. Just any sticky situations that are pitfalls. The San Diego Brewers Guild (a nonprofit organization that promotes San Diego breweries) just hosted like a ABC meeting at a local brewery a couple of weeks ago. And I feel like we knew a lot of that stuff that was mentioned, but it's still great to go and be a part of that. J Bagby: It’s like a refresher course. D Bagby: It’s a refresher. But you can just see in the room, people— J Bagby And you get questions and hands go up. And you’re thinking “You can’t do that.” D Bagby: Yeah. yeah. So, it was really interesting to see people's reaction to these rules that many of not all--I've been really long standing for a long time, but if you don't know, you don't know. And I think there's a lot of ask for forgiveness later, which may have worked in the past, but as the ABC gets more versed, they get--there are certain things that they were getting very particular about as they should. Downie: Well, once they see it as a continual problem, that it keeps happening, they're going to start coming down and— D Bagby: Yeah, and it's, you know, it is--I believe that it is your job as if you're going to have a license that you should know how it works and what--it's a responsibility. And it's hard for us to sometimes see other breweries who don't know. And that's fair if you don't know initially, but that blatantly break these laws all the time. And you don't want to see them get in trouble, but you also don't want to set up. It sets expectations on the customer side it sets expectations on other breweries’ sides were like, well, “They did it, why can't I?” And so of course for people like us who, like I said, risk averse, we want to make sure that we're--I mean, our biggest asset, those are the alcohol license. That's why we're here. So, if something happens to that, it gets jeopardized that's--that is a bad thing. (laughs) Very bad. So, yeah, it's, it's been talking about education. That's something that I've learned a lot from Jeff. And we've offered up if anybody has questions certainly here locally, you know, we're always available. People want to bounce an idea or, you know, find out more, we're happy to help. Downie: So, you're active in San Diego Brewers Guild. Because I saw you at Guild Fest (SD Brewers Guild Fest) and you just mentioned a recent meeting. Are there any other organizations you're active in or are members of--? J Bagby: We’re members of the Brewers Association, the National, um— D Bagby: CCBA. J Bagby: And the California Craft Brewers Association. Also, the MBA, the Masters Brewers Association of America. D Bagby: I'm actually a board member on the— J Bagby: San Diego. D Bagby: Brewer’s Guild. But yeah, there's a lot of those little things like that. J Bagby: I think those are the main ones, but those are all, I mean, there's some international stuff, but yeah. Downie: Yeah. What are you going to get involved in? I mean, again, it's kind of like the finding the charities that are actually going to be beneficial. Is that going to benefit you? J Bagby: (unintelligible) international. Well, yeah. I was going to say the only benefit for us because, you know, they have incredible conferences and technical courses. (Downie laughs) That would probably be the only reason for us to really be a part of those. And there's some competitions, there's some, some bigger European competitions that are gaining a lot of speed and a lot more Americans are actually sending beer over and winning medals. So, it's something to watch. But yeah, it's not like, you know, where we're going to Brau and Nuremberg every year or something like that. Downie: Well, that does bring up. When did you start putting your beers into competition? D Bagby: Good question. J Bagby: That was back when I was at Pizza Port at Solana Beach. We entered beers at Stone, but they weren't really--I didn't have anything to do with the recipes of those beers. Downie: Okay. You were an assistant. J Bagby: I was just standing there, but when I got to Solana Beach and was working with Tomme, some of those were my ideas and my things where I brewed them, or we brewed them together. It's a bit more intimate and I was a little bit more involved. So, I would say there, really. And that's where, you know, won, our first, or my first time across the stage. (laughs) Downie: Have you kept a list of all the awards you've won (unintelligible)? J Bagby: She did quite a bit of work on that before our business case. Before we opened. But I think she ended up just tallying GABF awards and World Beer Cup awards. Because there's certainly other things, too. There's like Alpha King. I’ve won that three times. That's the Hoppy Beer Competition that they hold during the GABF, that’s not associated with the GABF. Some awards at San Diego International Beer Festival, what do you call it? Beer of the Year, three times there. And some various other medals in, you know, have we ever entered LA county? A couple of times. So, you know, some things here and there. IPA festivas up and over North and Hayward. Years ago, I won medal at the Alaska Beer and Barleywine Festival. Downie: Oh, Alaska. Wow. You've really reached out here. J Bagby: It's a very long running, very famous festival. Downie: I’ve heard of it, yeah. But it just seems very interesting to me that if somebody were keeping a list of what beers they had won awards for, I think that would tell a story about some of the changes in styles and some of the expansion of styles of beers. J Bagby: Yeah, yeah. Maybe, I don't know. I was talking to somebody. I was in Miami at a festival this past weekend. A friend of mine, his anniversary for his brewery. And he throws a festival that coincides with it. It's invitational. Anyway, he invited me and I was like, “Yeah, I've never been to Miami. I'll go.” So anyway, I was talking to another brewer friend who was there and he was like, “Oh, well, you know, you won lots of IPA (India Pale Ale) medals,” and you and I was like, “Boy, yeah, I won some of those,” but also won in Belgians and a lot of different stout medals. And, I even have a couple of German pilsner medals. Some other like, you know, Scotch Ales, like Brown Ales. It's kind of a wide gamut. So, I don't know if my medal history would necessarily tell much of a story in that way. Maybe. Downie: Yeah. Well, I think the more pieces of evidence there are, the more our story can be put together. But have you ever done judging? J Bagby: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've been a judge at the GABF (Great American Beer Festival) and the World Beer Cup for thirteen years. Thirteen, fourteen years now. I don't remember my first judge GABF. It was like 2003, I think. So, yeah. I've been doing that for a long time and I'll be doing that this year in National. Downie: Yeah. I've heard comments that GABF has gotten so big and so many categories that has just really become kind of overwhelming. How do you feel about that? J Bagby: I wished that they would, on the organization side, that they would grow the competition to represent the growth in the beer industry. I get what they're trying to do and what then they have limitations, but sometimes I think they're being a little harsh on the restrictions on their side. You know, there's almost eight thousand beers in there, in the GABF last year, and I'm sure the World Beer Cup will be around that. And I think there's seventy-nine categories. They haven't expanded the categories too much in the last five years. I think maybe ten years ago there might've been sixty-something categories. So, it hasn't expanded a whole lot, but what has is the entries, right? So, brewers used to be able to enter around eight beers per brewery, or brewhouse, location into the competition. They've changed that and they have several different categories in ways, you know, like a Pizza Port that has five locations. You know, what if all five locations enter beers? Well, they have stipulations on how many beers a corporation, or a set of breweries, that are under one ownership can enter. So, every year that we've been a brewery, we've entered the maximum number of beers that we can enter into the GABF. And that makes it difficult because you only have four shots, right? Like we're sending four beers to the World Beer Cup. So, it's a more difficult. But so does everybody else. And so, everyone else has to make the decisions and the kind of cuts in their mind of which beers they want to enter, which ones that they're going to pass on for this year or this competition or whatever it is. So, it's still very fair. I think it's still judged very fairly. Probably the most fair competition there is in beer because of the qualities, the qualifications of the judges, and their palates and their history and their tenure as judges judging beer. It's all judged blind. It’s done very, very well. The problems I see with it are the categories that are masked, or you have over two hundred beers in the category: American IPA, Imperial IPA. I think American Pale Ale is pretty high. Some of these other ones that they get close to, you know, that are well over one hundred beers. You're getting into a situation where the algorithm isn't--so, you know, when they're spitting out their initial rounds and the algorithm that isn't accounting for past medal winners. Or beers--so you could have a round that has eleven beers in it, say it's American IPA, and that round might not have a single beer that's ever been in the competition before, or all new breweries that have never been to a competition for it. Then you could have another set of eleven beers where every single one of those beers has won a medal in the American IPA category before. And they’re, as far as I know, they're not accounting for that. And to me, that changes the game a little bit. Because even if you're a judge and you, at which has happened before, you'll get around and you'll be like, “Man, it was tough to pass on three of those beers, really could have passed on two or even just one and save the judges down the road some tasting.” Well, they require you to pass on three. They really push you to pass on three. If you absolutely can't then they want to hear why and want to hear an explanation. And so, I just believe that in that sense, you know, well maybe it's okay, but in the other sense where they're like, “Man, we had eight good beers. It was really hard to only pass on three beers.” So, now you've got this thing where you might have a potential medal winner that gets knocked out early because it was in a round with all excellent beer. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's--if I had a complaint about them, I wished that they would account for that. Especially in those--there's only, I'm talking to a handful of categories where that is really something I think that comes into play. The only other thing might be, like I said, to have grown with the competition or with the industry and allow brewers to enter more beers. But that takes more time. It takes more judges. They try to get the judging done in three days. If they didn't, they'd have to get another day, which is paying more, but you have to pay to enter the competition. So, to me, there's some work that probably could still be done. And there is a lot of brewers out there that are like, “Oh GABF. It's kind of eh.” You know, I believe in what my beers are and I send them and either I don't win medals or other beers win medals in the category that I entered that I don't think are as good as my beer. I think you have people that feel like that. But having been a judge, I've been on the tables. I've never been in a case where I was like, “That beer should have won a medal and it's not in the top three,” you know? I've never had a case where there wasn't a lot of thought and a lot of time spent into the beers that actually win medals. They’re medal-winning beers. Downie: Okay. I had a question and it’s just completely slipped my mind. J Bagby: Sorry. I know. Downie: No, that's okay. It still had to do with this. Um, I don’t know. (laughs) J Bagby: With the competition, or--? Downie: Well, oh, I know what it is. The brewers themselves decide what style of beer they’ve brewed. Have you run into cases where you taste a beer and you go, “This has--should have been in this category, you know. What were they doing putting it in here?” J Bagby: Yeah. Yeah. And the BA (Brewer’s Association) is real upfront about that when they tell brewers, you know, read the style guidelines and make sure that your beer fits into those guidelines and they give you everything. They give you a verbal description of the bitterness, color, aroma, mouthfeel, text--you know, everything. And then they also give you actual numbers for alcohol range, color range. Those are the things you need to pay attention to. And I feel like there is brewers that still don't pay attention to that. I don't know how or why. Or if they've just mislabeled their beers or what happened. But, they're—it’s pretty upfront. Like, this is--the judges have this when they're sitting at their table and they're going to read this before they start judging your beer. So, why would you enter something that doesn’t fit? Downie: Yeah, because you don't know why. Because I was thinking, well, maybe it's just their taste buds are different? Or it didn't transport well. (laughs) J Bagby: Yeah. I think, you know, for instance, she (D Bagby) sent me a picture one day. She had a Kölsch earlier. I can't remember what brewery she was drinking at. But she sent me a picture and it was this hazy beer in a straight sided pint glass. And she wrote “Kölsch--?” And so of course I went, “What does it taste like? Where are you at? Blah-blah-blah.” But a lot of people would look at that and go, “Well, Kölsch should be bright,” you know? Any German from Cologne is going be like, “That's hazy,” that’s got--you know. Even chill haze shouldn't really be there in a Kölsch. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: And a brewer's interpretation is one thing of what they call it on their menu board versus, you know, what category they might enter it in GABF. So, a beer like that might be an entered in a Keller beer. Because it might be an unfiltered Kölsch. So, they might say, well, “Yeah, it's German style Kölsch,” but it's actually a Keller beer because it was brewed in the vein of a Kölsch, but Keller is a German style beer. Downie: And that’s “K-E-L-L-E-R?” J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Okay. I'm still learning all the— J Bagby: Oh yeah, there’s tons. And that's-- Downie: There’s huge number of beer styles. J Bagby: Yeah, and there's, you know, historical beers that are becoming more popular and more rare, more obscure recipes and styles where there's a little bit more confusion or debate over what is actually correct. The Brewer’s Association does a good job of refining their categories and reviewing them each year. So, they take judge's interpretation—or judge’s comments on style descriptions. “No, no, this actually should be this way,” or “This should allow for this and this as well as this,” you know, so they do a good job of keeping up with that. But yeah, if you, you know, taste a brewer’s altbier at one brewery, and then he goes to another brewery and tastes another brewer’s altbier, they could be completely different beers. So, there that slide in judgment, but when you get into competitions, where's the category of your beer doesn't fit in it, then don't enter it. (laughs) Downie: Well, I mean, brewing is such a creative process. And there are as best as you can try certain factors like, you know, a Centennial hop may not be exactly the Centennial hop it was the year before due to the growing season, the factors there. So, it really is a creative process, but I've been kind of interested in the whole, you know, yes, I've seen some of these categories and descriptions and I'm like, “How can you always guarantee that those beers?”--well, obviously not. Not surprised. J Bagby: Yeah, there's interpretations of (unintelligible) category descriptions in different ways, for sure. Downie: Well, while you were meeting that account, Dande was telling me how, you know, when she first met you, how you were educating her into all the varieties of beers, you know? How she has found that to be so helpful. And then just the brewers I meet all seem to be that way as they to educate someone who--on the various styles that they're brewing or they're enjoying right at the time. Do you find that wearing? You know, continually trying to educate more people? J Bagby: I think when it's--if I was doing it every day, I think it might get—or the same exact set of beers every day or the same exact descriptions of the same person or the same, you know, whatever. I think I might get a little tired of it. But to me it's kind of exciting, especially when you have somebody that's open to it and isn't restrictive of themselves in their own palates. So, if you have somebody that's like, “I've never tasted German-style Weisse beer. I've never tasted American Red Ale,” which is kind of a better example. “I've never tasted Irish dry stout. I've never tasted—" you know? Whatever it may be. And if you can get five or six of those things in samples right in front of somebody, that's going to be a really cool conversation. Especially if that person's open to tasting and listening and identifying with what you're talking about in each one, you know? When you say, “Oh, what do you smell on that? What are you getting that? Okay.” Those types of things come from this ingredient or this timeframe or this hop or this malt and--or whatever other specialty ingredient might be there. And when the person identifies and goes, “Oh wow, that's really cool. I never thought of it like that.” All of the sudden you've got somebody who thought they hated German-style hefeweizen and going, “No, actually I'm going to order that the next time I'm out because I want to compare it or I want to see what it's like again, and kind of—"you know? I think people like, you know, connecting the dots in their heads. And if you've given them a little bit, just to even a little bit to bite on like English-style bitter, or an Extra Special Bitter, you know, what does that mean? What does that, it sounds, it sounds harsh, Extra Special Bitter. Well, no, there's actually some really nice malt depth in ESB (Extra Special Bitter) and it should be there. Well, it should have a firm bitterness, but what kind of bitterness? Well, it's not American piney, citrus, passion fruit, floral. And it's not that kind of hop it's the more herbal, spicy, earthy hop from the English varieties. And even just that much, and a person can go, “Oh, well, I really liked that.” Downie: And it makes it more accessible. J Bagby: And the next time, the next time I see it somewhere, I've got that connection in my brain to go, “Yeah, I know what I'm ordering it and there it is. Affirmation.” I'm drinking it. And it smells and tastes like I remembered. And I was told that it should. And I get that a lot where somebody will say, “Hey, you mentioned that, you know, this style beer can have this, this, and this. But I tried it over here and I got this, this, and this.” And that's sometimes where the brewer’s discrepancy is between styles or different ingredients or maybe just something is slightly different. But you can explain that away. And therefore, they've learned a little bit more and they have their file on whatever that beer was just got a little bit deeper in their head. So, the next time they try it and they connect the dots again. And I don't know, to me that's fun. That's exciting. And it's really exciting to see when someone's open to that and is engaging in that. It's kind of a little bit difficult when somebody says, “Oh, I don't like bitter beer,” or, “I don't like hops.” And you're like, “Well, you just haven't tried the right hops yet.” It's like, if you like beer and you're say you're a beer drinker, I believe--yes, you can have your favorites and the ones that you don't think are as great to you, but you got to try everything. You know, there's some newer, crazy styles out there I get, but the basics, ales and lagers, and the families within there, the style of families, if you say you're a beer drinker, you should know those or have a basic framework and understanding of what those are or have the desire to go, “I've never really tried that. I'm not really familiar with that, but I want to see. I want to see what it tastes like so that I know if I really like it, or I don't.” To like, find that out later, you know, like give yourself the chance to like it. Downie: It's like the three-bite rule with the kid and the vegetable. And then, you know, you got to at least try three bites of it. And then if you don't like it, we'll go from there. So that's a good way to do it. Now, do you have a favorite hop? Is there one that you like brewing with more than others? J Bagby: There’s definitely hops—plural--that I like using. We're a pretty classic traditional brewery. So, we stick to pretty traditional classic styles of beer. So, we're not using too many of the new, exotic, crazier hops. We're sticking to more of the classic American Pacific Northwest American hops and then the Nova varieties and then the English varieties. So, on the American side, you know, we're using a lot of Cascades, Centennial, a little Amarillo and Simcoe, and Columbus and Chinook. And that's kind of our core for the American side, but then the English ones are really wide and Noble hops as well. We use a lot of different varieties and again, not a lot of real new flashy ones, in part because of our contracts, we didn't know how and when our brewery was going to open. So, I bought a lot of hops because I was afraid that we weren't going to have any when we opened. So that drove that a little bit. The other part was just, yeah, I really liked those more classic American hops over some of the newer ones. Not to say that I don't like sprinkling a little of them here and there in brews, but I tend to favor those classic ‘C’ hops (referring to Chinook, Citra and other hops starting with the letter C.) Downie: And so you don't, from what you're saying, I'm hearing that you probably aren't planning on doing, you know, real strange and experimental beers either, you know? You're going to stick with the more--? J Bagby: No, I think if anything, I would pick some of the more obscure older styles. I’ve talking with some friends about a smoked wheat beer that used to be made that is actually--I believe it's actually a lager yeast and it's a fairly bright beer. But it has a smoked character to it, and a little bit of bitterness and wheat malt character to it. But I'm always afraid to brew smoked beer because I think, I always think that it's going to be me and like three other people drinking it. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Downie: Yeah, it could be a big mistake if you brewed it on your big system. So, do you have a small system that you can do little test batches on? J Bagby: No, it’s— D Bagby: It’s all or nothing. Downie: Well, that goes to being risk averse again. J Bagby: Yeah, we have a little lager on right now. I think it tastes fantastic. I just think it doesn't--I just think it's not exciting to people. It's a Belgium style beer. If you're familiar with Belgian style dubbel, which is basically like a Belgian style brown ale, but it has a Belgian yeast character to it. So, it's a little spicy and dark fruit and things like that. Well, take that and cut it in a little less than half with alcohol and flavors and everything else. We dropped it down to only about four and a half percent. It still has a lot of those characters, they're just a lot more mild and it's not as big and it's not as heavy. But it's not selling at all. (laughs) So, even somebody even called it dark Bud Light in the online comment. Downie: Oh dear. (laughs) J Bagby: That was fun to read yesterday. (laughs) D Bagby: That’s alright. It’s not for everyone. J Bagby: Nope. And that's exactly. That's kind of how we thought about it. Downie: One person's interpretation. J Bagby: Exactly, exactly. Downie: But yeah, if you're seeing that it's not really selling then, you know? You kind of-- J Bagby: Yeah, we (unintelligible)-- D Bagby: We had a few beers like, but that's, I mean, unfortunately, a few of them were Belgian styles. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But, Bruges Cruise was on for a long time. J Bagby: Well, that's because it was over eleven percent. We had people that loved that beer. But, we sold that at eight ounces at a time. D Bagby: Yeah, but we had it on tap for a year, also. J Bagby: (Unintelligible). D Bagby: They do A12. They do A12. Which is good. Downie: So, do you have much of a barrel aging program? J Bagby: We started one. We had, uh, we did twelve barrels and then we did another set with a different beer of just four barrels. All, most, all of that is gone now. So, we just brewed up Imperial Stout and we're getting ready to purchase thirty barrels. Just deciding what other beers we're going to put in those barrels and talk with the broker about making sure we get them as fresh as possible and which barrels they'll have available at that time. So that we're not filling barrels that have been sitting around drying out for months. They were nice and fresh. Downie: Yeah, you want to be able to extract something out of those barrels. (laughs) J Bagby: Exactly. But it's fun. I like doing it. But we do all straight up beer. We don't use any Wild Geese (blended whiskey) or-- D Bagby: Cupcakes. J Bagby: Or anything like that. (Downie and J Bagby laugh) So yeah, that’s fun. That's, to me, that's--I don't know, that gets to the uber fun side of brewing. You're like, “Oh, I'm going to put this thing in here.” Well, we had that beer that she was talking about in there for eighteen months and I just served it in Miami last weekend and it tasted phenomenal. Downie: (laughs) Love it when something works. J Bagby: Yeah. And sometimes they're don’t. That’s true. Knock on wood, we were pretty lucky with our barrels. Yeah. Downie: Okay. Well, I think I've exhausted all my questions. I learned a lot from you both. I've very, very, very much appreciated your time. D Bagby: Oh sure, our pleasure. J Bagby: If anything comes up or you're going through things and just feel free to email me or her and follow up. Downie: Come back with something that didn't record or transcribe or something. D Bagby: Don’t hesitate, we're happy to happy to help and also believe in what you're doing, and also-- J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: And also love to talk about all this kind of stuff, people that-- J Bagby: Yeah, it’s fun. D Bagby: People that are interested in it. Because, you know, we work so close to it, it's our life. But we are still--we are very passionate about it. And hopefully that comes through a little bit, even in construction stuff, and crazy things like that. Downie: I definitely see you have a future as working as a brewery construction consultant. (J and D Bagby laugh) Because really, you have gone through a lot of effort to educate yourselves and to do it right. And that kind of knowledge really should be shared. I mean, that's something I admire about Mike Hess. He wrote that, you know, ‘starting up a brewery’ webpage, but that still doesn't tap on everything. And especially, you know, doing something like this, of course every situation is going to change with every city you’re dealing with. D Bagby: But there are some basics that I think we would have really benefited from big time. And I think we would have heeded, we would have paid attention if somebody was like, “Hey, we just did this. Here's our experience. I'm here’s just how you can, you know, maybe avoid some of the pain, some of the pain points.” J Bagby: Yeah, the building part and you know, the construction management. I mean, I think part of that goes a lot. Like I can use the comparison as somebody's going to buy their brewing equipment and calling up three different equipment manufacturing and saying, “I want to buy a ten-barrel system, give me a quote,” and get three quotes and then just choose which one they want and order the equipment and get it sent. Well, I went up to the equipment manufacturer’s warehouse and talked with the engineers for two days before they even started drawing plans for my tanks. And then when they were about to start doing the finishing and they connection piping and all the process piping, I went back up there and stood in my tanks and looked at all the cores and looked at all the valves were and told them where I wanted to move things moved or changed. And the different specs on all--every single tank, not just the, the brewhouse stuff, but the cellar as well. Because you might get your tank and go like, “Why the heck is it like that?” And I kind of compare that to construction. Like we could have probably sat around and worked on other things and let them take forever to build this place and would have had something in the end, that would have been, but it wouldn’t been us and it wouldn’t been right. And that's just how we operate. So, I think while we spend a lot of time on that and we feel that it was absolutely one hundred percent necessary, some other people might be like, “Well, he didn't really need to do that. You could of—” D Bagby: Get by. J Bagby: But it's not us. I guess that was what I was trying to say. Downie: You have invested heavily in this, so why not have it right? But, Plan Nine (Plan Nine Alehouse) over in Escondido, I was over there one day and they didn't have any of their own beers on tap. And I said, “Gee, you don't have any of your own, I thought you were brewery.” And he said, “Well, we got new equipment and we've had continual leakage.” D Bagby: Oh no. Downie: And they, you know, this was like nine months that they had been dealing with it. So, you were exactly right in going--and I mean, even if you have to stand in your tanks and (unintelligible)— J Bagby: Well, and it’s kind of fun too. (laughs) Downie: Yeah, yeah. They will say, “Hey, I stood in my tank.” (all laugh) But, yeah. D Bagby: That’s too bad. Downie: So, something like that can go very, very wrong. J Bagby: Yeah, looking at welds and not (unintelligible). D Bagby: And also not having the support, because if you--when, you know, when you got your, whatever it is, whatever contractor you have or manufacturer having--actually, we're just dealing with the meeting before you got here or talking to a new point of sale company. And part of the reason is just a sheer lack of support on our current system. There's no one we can call and say, “Hey, you know our business, you know how we operate. These are the problems we're having.” There's just no one. And so, this other company that's--you absolutely have a person. So having your tanks leaking, you're losing money. You're, you know, that's literally money down the drain, and frustrating if you're a brewery owner, you’re a brewer, you definitely don't want to see your beer going down the drain. Yeah. Do you have the support you need from the manufacturer? Who's going to back up their work and if not, then pay a few more bucks and get somebody who will. J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Yeah. So, a lesson to live by. D Bagby: Yes, that’s so true. Well, thank you so much. Downie: Thank you. Yeah, let's see. Where's my stop button? (Downie and D Bagby laugh) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview February 21, 2018. Description An account of the resource Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024. Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations. Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles. Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time. In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer; homebrewing; introduction of craft beer to the region; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery; packaging and distribution; charity work; competitions, judging, and awards; consumer education. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-053 Subject The topic of the resource Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.) Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jeff Bagby Dande Bagby Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Holly Sweat Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e6a0557324444a8c6a228b39903f5690.pdf a53157df08f2af558a0dc48546221b23 PDF Text Text JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 (Some early conversation deleted.) Sweat (00:05:30): Is this my copy or is this your copy? (Sweat referring to printed list of questions.) Downie: You can certainly have that because I am just going to let Jeff and Dande, you know, tell me what they want because that is just a list of ideas. You certainly do not have to address anything if you feel like it is giving away company secrets or you are just not comfortable or you just forget about it and tell me something else equally interesting and informative. That’s great. I love to record what I can get. So, you know, it sounds Dande like you maybe got into this a little after Greg did. Excuse me, Greg--I just said Greg. After Jeff did. So maybe we start with Jeff talking about how did he become interested in beer or how did he get into the beer industry and--? J Bagby (00:06:13): Okay. Yeah, so let's see. I started liking bitter beer, I don’t know, at high school, younger age. It just was something that my friends and I found--a couple of friends--who really liked the flavors. Liked the idea-Downie: Now, were you in this area or where were you--? J Bagby: Yeah, I was born and raised in Encinitas. So, San Diego native. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: So yeah, around here. And, actually when I graduated high school, I bought that friend in particular a homebrew set for his birthday. And so, we both messed around and that was my first homebrewing foray, whatever you want to call it. Downie: (00:07:01): Now where did you find your supplies for homebrewing up? J Bagby (00:07:03): Yeah, that is what I was going to say. So, you know, that's the age before the internet and cell phones and things of that nature. So, there is no-Downie: Do you want to give me an approximate year? J Bagby: Uh, (19)93. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)92, (19)93, (19)94, somewhere in there. And, so we had known a little bit, we had heard a little bit, we had tried to go and fish beer from establishments even though we were not of age yet. But at homebrew shop you can buy anything without an ID. So, at least back then you could. So, we Homebrew Mart in Solana Beach. That's where I first met Yusef (Cherney) was actually the one that sold me the kit. Then he went on obviously to do his thing. So, kind of a cool connect there and then they kind of keep happening as time goes on. But, yeah, so we just messed around really. I mean, we re-read things, read books. Talked to brewers when we could, when we traveled, things like that. We ended up going to school together where we got more into it. We were doing all-grain batches and keeping a beer on tap at our house all the time, as well as beers like Sierra Nevada (Brewing Co.), Anchor Steam (Beer), Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 1 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Original Pizza, Wicked, Red Nectar, some of the Sam(uel) Adams beers. I don’t, what else we could get our hands on that we felt was better. (laughs) Downie (00:08:29): Now was there a bottle shop anywhere nearby where you could (unintelligible)? J Bagby (00:08:34): There was a few. There was in Encinitas and downtown there was Cork and Keg (Cork and Keg Liquors). There was a couple in sort of the Kearny Mesa area that were known for having, you know, hundreds of bottles and typically they were not very good. But we did not necessarily know that at the time (Downie laughs) because we didn’t know what we were tasting and not tasting. Downie (00:08:51): Right. Yeah. J Bagby: I did not know that some of these beers, well, they'd been sitting around on these shelves warm for, you know, a couple of years. Some of them survived perfectly fine. And most of them, you know, like, “Oh, that's what that tastes like, that's kind of weird”. So, when we can find fresh things or more exciting flavors, that was obviously a fun thing. And yeah, just like, I think anybody did back in the nineties, when you found a new bottle of beer, you kept it, or you kind of talked about it and told your friends, “Hey, I tried this, blah-blah-blah.” It was, you know, I was rating beer before there was the internet, before there was, you know, these things that we are so attached to. So yeah, that is kind of where the appreciation started and, you know, throughout college, like I said, wherever, I would go and travel, try to seek out breweries, brew pubs, if it was possible to talk to a brewer and get, you know, whatever information I could, you know. “What kind of grain did you use this? What kind of hops are in this? What is your process for this? And, oh, what size system do you have?” And, you know, it was fun to do. And I was fun to go to cities that had older, richer brewing cultures than San Diego, you know? Back then there was not even probably ten breweries in San Diego at the time. Especially none that we had real easy access to. The easiest one for, for me, ended up being Solana Beach Pizza Port (Pizza Port Solana Beach). Just because I had met people there and met the brewers there. I went there all the time and were buying homebrew supplies from down the street. So, as it grew, you know, I finished school, came back home. I worked summers at the YMCA in Encinitas running their summer camp programs. Youth summer camp programs. So, I was heavily involved in that. But I always really liked--still liked beer. Still went to festivals and— Downie: What was your degree in? J Bagby: It was communications, social science degree. You know, honestly, I just wanted to get done in the school. It is not really my thing. Downie (00:11:04): But you completed it, so “Yay” for you. J Bagby (00:11:07): Yeah, yeah, I can say I have a degree. Whoop. (D Bagby laughs) So yeah, came back home, worked that job or some aspect of it for a summer. And then I was hoping to stay on. I’d had several--I've worked there since I was fifteen (years old). So, I had years of experience, knew the program, knew everything and anything about it. So, it was hoping, well, maybe this will be a full-time job, because the program had grown and grown and grown in the time that I've worked there. But they didn't have a position. Good old nonprofits. So, I started just looking for a job. I was living in Cardiff with some friends and I needed money. I needed something to do. So, through the YMCA, I had a commercial Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 2 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 driver's license to drive kids around, drive big old buses. So, I looked into driving jobs because they paid pretty well. And I could probably get one quick. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: You know, the degree did nothing for me, so. (laughs) D Bagby: Well, it sounds like you didn’t really want it, too. J Bagby: Well, I mean, it's not like you go, like, what industry are you going to be like? “Yeah. I have a communications degree from UC Santa Barbara,” like there, so? How's that going to help us do blahblah-blah. There was no technology jobs. There was no social media jobs. There was no— Downie: Exactly. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) I was, I kept going into radio or like news or— Downie: (00:12:28): (speaking at the same time) But it would have taken time to get employed, and you were saying you needed work now. J Bagby: Exactly. Downie: Which is certainly understandable. J Bagby: Exactly. D Bagby: So, think about that before we get the degree. (laughs) Just kidding. (laughs) J Bagby (00:12:36): So let's pay attention and talk about themselves once it’s their turn. (all laugh) D Bagby: Just saying! J Bagby: So anyway, let's see, let's see, oh, came across the job, driving job for Stone Brewing Company. And I remembered that I had been in Solana Beach the very first night they'd ever poured a beer and I'd met Greg (Koch) and Steve (Wagner) and tasted the beer. And I was like, “Oh, this would be great.” You know, I remember them, it's cool to see that they, you know, are still going and are making beer and need a driver. So, I just interviewed with Greg and told him my whole story. And he was like, “Well, obviously you're super overqualified. (Downie laughs) So, you know, you have the job.” And it was fun. It was interesting to see some side of the bar and restaurant and beer industry that I'd never seen before. Learning some of the weird rules that are still in laws that are still in effect today and delivered beer. Drove beer truck for three months. (00:13:40): And Steve and I were at a festival. I would always hang back after I was done and talk with the brewers and see what they were making and see what was coming on and things like that. And Steve was like, “Well, we need another body in the brewery. We need somebody else.” And I was like, “Yeah, sure. I'd love to.” I was like, “Who do I give these truckies to?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So I actually found the guy that took my position as a driver. And he's still my Stone rep(resentative) today. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 3 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Downie: Oh my gosh. J Bagby: Yeah. I still work for Stone in different capacity now, obviously. But yeah, he was a bartender at one of our accounts, he was actually at Pizza Port and he's like, “Oh, how's it going over there?” And “What's it like?” and I'm like, “Well, if you're interested, you could come check this out.” (00:14:27) He was a bartender, so he could still bartend and do that. And so, yeah, he came over and I taught him the routes and boom, he was the driver and I moved into the brewery. So, I learned there, primarily from Lee Chase and Steve Wagner. Their methods to brewing, I'll say, which I still today, I think if you ask about mentors on here, definitely those two guys are some of the first. And they gave me a lot of introductions into people like Skip Virgilio, Yusef Cherney, Jack White, Chris White, Gina and Vince Marsaglia, where I spent hours in their restaurant. Several other people that are still working in beer today, and still active. And, you know, we all kind of, you know, kind of go, “Yep, you were there,” you know, when you have these people that have been open for five minutes. (Downie laughs) Not to say it's bad, but you know, it's nice to have that kind of a bond and that kind of a connection to people that remember when there wasn’t all the things that there are today. Downie: (00:15:33): When it was a struggle. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yeah, big time. Downie: (speaking at the same time) I mean, not that it isn’t a struggle now to run a business and to start having all that, just to be in the first, the forefront of things. J Bagby: Oh yeah, there used to-Downie: There is still some special barriers. J Bagby (00:15:47): When I was living in Cardiff, in driving for Stone and then actually working in the brewery for Stone, we would go to events like every weekend. Every Friday and Saturday night, you know? Because the sales reps are like, “Hey, can you guys come down and help promote?” Or, you know, whenever we went to somewhere and be like, “Hey, do you have Stone beer on tap?” And they'd be like, “What the hell is Stone?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) You know, and now you can't find somebody that doesn't know what that is. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And back then, it was totally different because people weren't paying attention. People didn't care. There was five tap handles and all five of them are taken up by mass-produced beer, you know? The Heinekens, Amstel Light, Guinness, New Castle, Bud, Bud Light, Coors Light, Miller Light, not Corona, it wasn't going on tap back then but it was in the bottle under the bar. So, it was tough. It was tough for them to gain ground and getting space. And because they came out with a Pale Ale, they were in an immediate competition with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, which had already, you know, been around for ten years at the time. So, you had that battle. You have this well, “What's, what's different from you? These guys have been doing it for a long time. They make this Hoppy Pale Ale. We've had it on tap. What's the difference?” So yeah, a lot of early struggles, a lot of, you know, almost telling--I like to say this, like Stone told people what to drink. When they came out with a beer like Arrogant Bastard and they came out with a beer like Stone IPA, and it came out with Smoked Porter that came out with these beers that Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 4 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 no one was used to drinking and they were like, “No, you're going to like this, because this is what we have to offer. (00:17:15) And people would taste it. And I think combined shock, new flavors, new tastes, things they'd never had before, they really grabbed onto it. And they were like, “No, this is, this is cool. I really like this.” Not necessarily knowing why or knowing what about the beer that they were actually tasting. Just that it was exciting and it was new. So, I learned to brew on that, (laughs) professional thirty barrel, professional brewhouse pretty quickly. Helped create the first Stone Barley Wine, Old Guardian. Lee and Steve and I each did five-gallon test batches. And then we, we tasted them all and created a recipe. So, that was fun. And few anniversary beers, you know, when they were taking Stone IPA and Double Stone IPA and Triple Stone IPA for the anniversary beers. Those beers just blew people's minds back then because no beer had had that kind of aroma and power on the hop side, you know? (00:18:20) And they're not unlike a lot of West Coast IPAs that are still made today. So that was exciting. The Y(MCA) came calling somewhere in that first year, year and a half that I was in the brewhouse. I got hired at Stone in September of (19)97. And I worked there through sometime in (19)99. Okay. I'm trying to remember exactly when, but I did go back to the Y full-time because they actually have a full-time job for me and they needed the help. So, over the summers I would work a hundred-plus hours a week because I’d work a full-time job at Stone Brewing. And then I would go back over to the Y and help them with everything that they needed for the next day or for the next week of things I hired and trained. Yeah, it was crazy. Monitored staff, bus drivers, all these things while I was still working at Stone. (00:19:13) Left Stone to do the Y thing after one of the summers, because I was like, oh, it's too much. And they were going to give me a little bit more money at Y. So, I went and did that and then got stomped on over there. Got passed over. And I was like, “You know what? I'm done with this. I've given my life to you guys and saved you guys several summers and I'm over it.” So, went back to beer, got hired at White Labs (Brewing Co.) in San Diego. I had known--by this time I had known tons of people in the industry. I had done festivals for Stone. I had worked for them in all sorts of different capacities and also knew the Pizza Port people really well. Downie (00:19:54): So what year--when did you get hired on White Labs? J Bagby (00:19:58): That was probably (19)99? Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)99, 2000? I can’t—I’m not positive on that. But somewhere in there. Because I definitely left--I left both the Y I think the--right before the 2000 summer started because they had made some really bad decisions and it bothered me. (Downie laughs) So, let's see. I worked at White Labs for-Downie: As a brewer? J Bagby: No, as a sales kind of yeast consultant. Answer questions for people, take orders, you know. Downie (00:20:34): Was this at their--where they are now? Candida Street or--? J Bagby: (00:20:38): No, this was the location before that. (Silverton Avenue, San Diego location.) Downie: Okay. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 5 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby: A little--it's kind of an interesting place like offices on front, warehouse in the back, but much, much smaller than where they are now. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: (00:20:50) But it was cool. It was definitely educational. It was neat to get to know Chris and Lisa (White) better as well as one of their other then-partners, Chris Mueller. I had already known all of them and met all of them so, it was kind of nice to get a job and work with them. And it was okay. It just wasn’t--it wasn’t exciting for me. And I wanted to get back into the brewhouse and I wanted to get back working with actual beer. So, kept in touch with Pizza Port and the people there, the whole time. I got hired at Solana Beach as an assistant brewer. And so, I was an assistant brewer there and bartender there-Downie: And who was head brewer at the time? J Bagby: Tomme (Arthur), at the time. But we had become friends, gosh, right after he got hired there because I knew the brewer before him. And then they're like, “Oh, that's the new brewer.” So, I just like introduced myself and said, “Hey, I really like these beers here and blah-blah-blah” So we just got to chatting and hanging out and doing all sorts of different things. And you know, even when I was working for Stone, we connected just because it's, you know, another brewery in town. (laughs) And back then— Downie: (00:22:00): Well, it shows the value of networking— J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: And knowing people, it makes a big difference. J Bagby (00:22:06): There's also a way to learn back then, you know? Steve and Lee were great and taught me a lot, but also learned a lot from Tomme. And I also learned a lot from a ton of other breweries that I met back in the late nineties and early two thousands. All across the state and even into Arizona. The guys at Four Peaks (Brewery Co.), still good friends of mine, even though they sold their company for who knows how much, they won’t tell anybody. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) (00:22:30) Places like Marin Brewing (Company), Anderson Valley (Brewing Company), Russian River (Brewing) now, when he was still in Temecula back then. Downie: He was Blind Pig (Brewing) back then. J Bagby: Yeah, I had met him (Vinnie) and Natalie (Cilurzo) back then. Untold numbers of, you know, going to the Great American Beer Festival (GABF) for the first time was probably my biggest eye-opener to all of that and meeting more and more people because now there was the whole U.S. and all the brewers in the U.S. in one room and back then it was easy. You could go and talk to people. I was working for a brewery at the time and that was 1997. It was my first GABF. And I'll never forget going up to people and trying beers and went, “Oh my gosh, that's awesome,” you know? And just making that acquaintance. And I know a lot of those people still today that I met that year at that GABF. So really cool stuff. (00:23:29): And that just kept building, you know? Every time I could go to a conference, every time I could go to another out-of-town festival. Meet more people. (laughs) So, you know, at Solana, I was there for probably two or three years doing assistant brewing and bartending. And then a Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 6 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 position opened up. I had met Tom Nickel through all of this too. Because he was good friends with Tomme. He was a part of the early Ballast Point (Brewing Company) and Home Brew Mart. Tom and I are still very good friends today and Tomme. And so, he said, “Hey.” He was working for Stuft (Pizza and Brewing) at the time before it was Oggi’s. And then when it became Oggi’s, they had one in Vista that opened, their brewer was leaving. And so he's like, “Hey, if you want a head brewing job,” I was like, “Hell yeah.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) (00:24:19) So, took it. I had interviewed with a couple others. It was just, well I interviewed at Kona and just decided I didn't want to go and live on an island. (laughs) So, and there was an opportunity in my backyard, so, why not take that? So, did that for a while. That was fun. That was really the first time I got to see my influence on brewing, make a difference for somebody's beers or somebody's restaurant or somebody's beer culture, you know? It was the first time I'd won medals on my own with my own beers. You know, we'd done very well on Solana Beach. But this was cool because it was like my stuff. And worked with Tom (Arthur). He became their corporate brewer for a short time up in San Clemente. And I worked at that location for a while until Pizza Port Carlsbad had an opening for a head brewing position and that was a bigger brewhouse. (00:25:14) That was more beer and it was more money and it was Pizza Port was kind of my first forte. So, I went back to that and ran, within a year, was running all the brewing operations on all of their pubs. Helped them open Ocean Beach. Hired, trained, promoted a ton of different brewers who are still in the brewing industry today. Yeah, you’ve got Yiga Miyashiro, the head brewer at Saint Archer (Brewing). Greg Peters, who's the head of Barrel Program there. Ignacio Cervantes, who was the head brewer of Carlsbad after I left and then took over (Pizza Port) Bressi Ranch and is now working for a new company in San Diego (Chula Vista Brewing). Noah Regnery, who also part of that company and Brandon Edwards is also a part of that company. (00:26:05) All guys that were head brewers at Pizza Port went on to several different breweries and have all kind of come back together in one way. I'm sure there's other people. (laughs) Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: But it was a good experience and, you know, going all the way back to my Stone days, you know, Lee and I worked in this warehouse by ourselves, you know? Day in, day out. So, you get in these conversations, you're running, you know, a four head making bottling machine for eight hours while you're filtering a beer, you know? Like, you know? You are brewing, you get into conversations and you know, both of us were like, “Yeah, I really would like to own my own place at some point,” you know? And my thoughts at that time were, I'd really like to just have a beer bar or have a place because I've enjoyed that aspect of it. (00:26:54) I enjoyed teaching people about beer, telling people about new styles and new things that were coming out or that the Pizza Port had just come out with. So, I said, “I don't know what, I just really want to my own place. And Lee was like, “Yeah, me too, me too.” So, it's funny that both of us have had that come trueDownie: Yeah. J Bagby: Over time. But in the Pizza Port years, having, you know, kind of pulled from my YMCA experiences with hiring and training people and building sort of a management approach to running the bars at the Pizza Port, they were, for lack of a better term, they were pretty chaotic and not very well managed. And the companies were, even though they were making money, hand over fist, they weren't making as much as they could because they were losing money, hand over fist because of their bar staff. 00:27:41) So, I tightened up that. I taught their bar staff and what, you know, beer education programs, you know, you had to spend a day in the brewery with me, all of these things. And that carried on to all of the locations. And in doing that and forging that, that's when, you know, I started having Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 7 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 conversations with Dande. We had met and I showed her--actually I was still working at Oggi’s when we met. And, you know, started talking about, well, “What do we want, what do you want to do with this? What would you do with this?” And I was like, “Oh, I want to open my own place.” And it was funny because people would come in while I was brewing in Carlsbad, say, “Oh, we're going to open a brewery.” And I was like, “Oh, cool.” Well, this is, you know, “I've been doing this for a really long time and I'm not ready yet, but you know, good on you.” Or somebody would come in who had just opened a brewery and I'd want to help support them. (00:28:32) So, we had guest beers at Pizza Port, we would put their beer on tap and, you know? I would talk it up and everything. And then it was funny because by the time I left Carlsbad, I didn't have that approach. I was like, “Okay, bring your beers in and then I'll taste them and we'll see what we can do.” Yeah, “We'll give you some feedback or we'll see if we can get you into rotation or not,” you know? We have a big board, there's a ton of trends, and there's a ton of spots. They're almost always taken whatever the case was, but I wasn't as eager to just blindly accept the keg as I had been in the past, when there was, you know, “Let's promote local beer and let's get this scene going.” And it transferred all the way into here because now there's even more breweries. (00:29:15) But now that I'm one of those people that's trying to sell beer to people. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: It's always so-- I get it. And, you know, hopefully, you know, the things that we had talked about before we opened and the things that we wanted to do is largely what you see today. When you come here and it's not just a beer aspect, it's a food aspect, it's a space and feel. It's also our cocktail and spirits program, wine program. All the things that we do here are things that we talked about ten years ago. Of course, it took us a very long time to get to that point. And I think we've surpassed many mountains in that process of getting to where we are, which is something that feels really good. But it's also a constant struggle when there's, you know, things that we deal with every day. (00:30:09): And somebody asked me the other day, “Oh, would you go back and do it again?” Yeah, I would. Hopefully I know a little bit more. (all laugh) As Dande was talking about earlier with managing the construction, but it's been a crazy, crazy road. It's been fun to have been a part of San Diego beer, to have kind of put my efforts into not only just promoting the people that I worked for, but training other people into that and, you know, really teaching and promoting what good beer is and making sure that I did everything I could to make sure that San Diego was seen that way and perceived that way across the country and across the world. And I believe that I still do that today, even though there's one hundred and fifty or what odd breweries in town. I still make my efforts to make sure that that happens if that makes sense. Downie (00:31:07): Yeah, it does. J Bagby: Cool. Downie: So, what made you decide to basically take down Continental Motors? (J and D Bagby laugh) What made you decide on taking this piece of property and rather than taking over-J Bagby: Good question. Downie--a building that you could just kind of refurbish? J Bagby (00:31:25): Yeah. Well, I kind of still ask myself that question a lot. (D Bagby laughs) D Bagby: Depends on how good the day is going. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 8 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby: That 3,000 square foot warehouse looks pretty cool somedays. (laughs) No, we had a location in Encinitas that we were pretty fond of. I wanted to be the first person to make beer and Encinitas since there was one little tiny spot that was open for like nine months in downtown Encinitas called the Red Kettle. D Bagby: The (19)80s? J Bagby: And it was like (19)89 to (19)90, something like that, I think it was open. And sounded like the guy didn't know a whole lot about what he's doing. And it would be interesting to see if you find any more information on that. Downie: There’s very little on the Red Kettle. I’ve been looking. J Bagby: (00:32:07): There's like one article you can still pull up online. Vince Marsaglia, I remember he'll tell me stories. He's told me stories about going in there and talking to the guy about brewing. But anyway, I wanted to be like, “No, I want to open up a brewery and want to, you know, it's not going to be a restaurant with the little kid in the back.” Like, yeah, I want to do that in Encinitas ‘cause Encinitas neighborhood made it look cool there.(32:30) But building situation fell through. We had spent some time, even some money getting people together. We had met with everyone at the city of Encinitas. So, we knew it was going to be a bit of an uphill battle with what's going down there on the Coast. It was on Coast Highway in Encinitas, big, beautiful, gorgeous eighty-three hundred square foot building with a wooden barrel ceiling and twelve-foot brick walls. Gorgeous place. (00:32:58) And the landlord--we had never actually spoke with the landlord. We had only spoke with his representative and he had edged us along the way. “Yeah, that's good. It's good. Yeah. That's no, he's, he wants to do this.” And we put in our LOI (Letter of Intent), you know, spent, like I said, I spent time with the city. This is what we're thinking about doing. Architects, all sorts of things. Structural engineering, because the building's old. It was an old Safeway or something, I think. D Bagby: (33:23) It was a grocery store. J Bagby: Yeah, it was a grocery store at one time. That's why. And all of a sudden we just weren't hearing anything back from the rep. So, I just called them up and, “Dude, what's going on?” Like we were going forward, we think this is happening. We've heard nothing. And he just basically said, “No,” without, you know, I tried to reach out to the landlord. (00:33:48) The owner said, “Hey, just meet me. Just--let's have a conversation.” Could never get there. And from what I hear, that guy's kind of a maniac, so I'm kind of glad we didn't get in that situation. (D Bagby laughs) But I do miss the idea of being there in that building and being in Encinitas. I think that would have been really, really cool. But-Downie: As a hometown boy. J Bagby: (34:12) (laughs) But, we took that setback. Or, yeah, it was a setback, because we were, you know, not that we'd put all our eggs in that basket, but we definitely— D Bagby: (00:34:25): Several months. J Bagby: But, yeah, we spent several months of time on it. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 9 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: We kind of mentally moved into it too. You start to really put yourself there and how to Jeff, as you mentioned earlier, like, we had been talking about these ideas that you now see here for a long time. And so, you start to sort of layer those ideas over the space and figure out how things might go. And, it was really--it was a huge disappointment. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But we got over it pretty quickly and moved on and... J Bagby (00:34:51): Yeah. So, we decided to, not to stop, but to kind of regroup. We got married and after we got married, we decided to enlist the help of a commercial real estate. So, we, through some friends we found a really good broker. And he gave--started just giving me--I met with him--he gave me no less than I think a hundred properties throughout the county to look at. And we had already found out a little bit on our own through some other connections, you know. Basically, no one's going to give you any cash. If you're in a strip mall, you're going to be paying even though, your rent might be lower, you're going to be paying other fees that make that rent go back up. And they basically only take national conglomerate stores that have very, very deep pockets these days. Not too many private strip malls out there taking breweries and first-time owners and let alone, “Oh, you want to open a restaurant and a brewery? Okay, yeah. High risk, high risk. No, don't do it, all those things.” (35:49) So, we sought out to find private owners and properties that started to fit what we what we had or what we wanted on there, which was coastal North County, enough space for a restaurant, enough space to have a decent sized brewery, and a space that will allow for indoor-outdoor dining. We love the aspect of letting people or giving the people the opportunity to eat outside in this gorgeous weather that we have almost year-round. So, I'd never thought about Oceanside, but I knew that anything in between Del Mar and Carlsbad was going to be extremely expensive and extremely difficult to find. Especially for the uses that we wanted to do. You know, we were trying not to have a conditional use permit. (00:36:38): We're trying not to deal with the (California) Coastal Commission. We're trying to get into a spot where we could build or remodel, I should say, for the most part. Downie (36:47): Yeah (laughs). J Bagby: But pretty much ended up re-building. If you saw what we did to this place before we rebuilt it— Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: We basically tore it down. Anyway, he gave me a list of seven, eight properties in Oceanside here. So, I just grabbed my camera, my notebook, and my bike and rode them all. And I came across this one and it was--you could go all the way around it, but you couldn't see much. Where the brewery is now, were solid roll-down doors. It was their maintenance garage. Up front was a showroom, so, I could look in the windows there. That building to the south, you can kind of look in there too, but you couldn't tell what was exactly going on over here. (00:37:28): You can see a little bit, all closed, looked like it had been, somebody had moved out. And so, in my head it just started clicking and I'm like, “Oh, what if that was there? And what if we put, you know, the brewery in here? What if we did this here?” I took, I don't know, fifty pictures of the place looked at the other properties and went home and told her. I'm like, “I found it.” And she's like, “What are you talking about?” Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 10 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: You actually called me from the space. (J Bagby laughs) J Bagby: I’m like, “It's an old car dealership.” She’s like, “You're fucking insane.” I’m like, “Get in a car, come down here.” (all laugh) D Bagby: It’s basically what happened. J Bagby: (laughs) So, yeah, we just kind of went from there. We told our broker, “Hey, can you, you know—" super sensitive about contacting the realtor—realtor rep, landlord, anything like that. D Bagby (00:38:14): Because of our experience in the industry. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: We wanted to make--just kind of proceed cautiously. And we did not have our hopes up. We had no idea what they would--what their response would be to any kind of inquiry. J Bagby: (00:38:21): We obviously originally thought that they wanted car dealerships to take it over again. Just because they were set up that way. They have the lifts, they had the excess parking. They had, you know, frontage on South Coast Highway. There's seven other places, you know? So, we thought that's what they were going for. And they originally, they kind of said, “Yeah,” because use is that, it'd be easy for their somebody to just take it over. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And a couple of inquiries they had because the space was so big and nobody wanted it all. They would want just that building or just the parking lot, or just part of this main building, main parcel. So, I said, “Well, we're kind of interested in all of that.” (laughs) And so anyway, the original conversation with rep-between-rep, the idea of a brewery got brought up by the rep from here and unsolicited-D Bagby: By their broker, yeah. J Bagby: Unsolicited from our broker at all. (00:39:20) And I was like, “Yes. Okay, cool.” And so, I'm like, “Hey, can we get in it? Can we look around and see what's going on?” So, the very first day we came to look at it and the landlords was here, the owners were here. And they wanted to meet us and they wanted to hear about what we wanted to do. And if we thought the space would work. And they're still friends of ours today. They still come in here and eat. His father was from Bamberg, Germany, which is a huge brewing scene in Germany and malts. There's two big malt companies in Bamberg. Then I said, “Well, I buy malt from Bamberg.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, we had this, you know, this back and forth. Their son is into beer. And he really liked the idea of the legacy of the property that his father had started going into another family business of some kind. I think that probably in the end was what attracted them the most to us. But we poured our hearts out like, “Hey, this is what we want to do. And we totally get it. Like, you know, we've never opened a business. This is a huge spot. We have to raise a ton of money.” All these things, but we really want to do it.” And they went for it. D Bagby (00:40:34): Much to their credit, honestly. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 11 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: They took a big risk on us. And, it's a big point of pride for Jeff and I-J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: (40:41) -- to count them among legitimately among friends. And, we're just, we're so grateful to them for just being open-minded. It was their family's business that was here and then that they had to close and they still own the property. And they, you know, we have a long long-term lease and several options. So, we don't own the space. I'm sure the property will stay in their family forever, which I think is fine. It's perfect. But they just really--they were very interested in us as people and-J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: (00:41:13): --what our vision was and what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it. And I think that aligned, even though they're totally different industries, it really aligned with their values. And, yeah, much to— Downie: Their European background. D Bagby: Yeah, definitely that that's probably part of it. (laughs) But I remember when they finally agreed, it was sort of like, obviously it's exciting, but it's also instantly terrifying. Downie: Yeah. D Bagby: You don't--And we didn't even realize at the time what we had just done, I don't think. (Downie D Bagby laugh) J Bagby (00:41:46): It took me six weeks to get the lease exactly where we wanted it. D Bagby: At least. J Bagby: And it's like, I think it's sixty pages of like, eight, nine-point font. It's like line-by-line and you just, you have to know, “Okay, what does this lawyerese mean?” And then go and read through and go, “Okay, no, that's what we don't agree with. Here's the change we need,” you know? And so, we just-the back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And then we start with contractors interviewing contractors, and that is a whole fiasco in and of itself because they're intense. And they realized that in the end, throughout this thing, I think they realized that their relationship is never going to be a great one, just because of the nature of the industry. D Bagby: It can’t. J Bagby: It just can't. There's too many variables and there's too much money and there's too much time involved for--I've never met anybody who was like, “Yeah, I loved my GC. My project went amazing.” They're full of shit. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 12 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: It’s like a disposable relationship in a weird way. J Bagby: Yeah, you just-D Bagby: You need them, they you need but then it's over and we're done. We don't want to see you again kind of thing. It's terrible, but that's just kind of the nature of it. Downie (00:42:53): Now did your general have any background in building a brewery? J Bagby (00:42:55): (speaking at the same time) No, in restaurants. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) In restaurants. J Bagby: Yeah, restaurants, and commercial or retail. But mostly restaurants and bars is what we were attracted to him for. D Bagby: Small company also-J Bagby: Smaller company. Had the reputation of being able to do something like this D Bagby: Had worked with the architect— J Bagby: Yeah, he had worked with our architect on a project before and yeah, I mean the architect firm went down in flames pretty quick. (D Bagby laughs) I realized, oddly enough, we got an apology email from him last week, which was-D Bagby: A little late. J Bagby: Frustrating two years later. But, yeah, they just weren't equipped and we didn't know that they weren't equipped. D Bagby: We didn't know enough to know that. J Bagby: Yeah. And then, you know, I spent countless hours going to the counters at the city to talk to the engineers, to talk to the-D Bagby: The building inspectors. J Bagby: The building inspectors and just going back and forth. “No, we need this. Okay.” So, because I'm trying to facilitate--we're trying to facilitate this project and keep it moving. (00:43:57) And there's obviously no one in the world has any incentive, but, or the most incentive than us to get it done. And so, we're just, like she said, we just took it on. We project managed, we--every day, we'd come here and walk through and see what was done wrong or what hadn't been done or why isn't, so-and-so working today, you know? And part of that was on the GC, part of that was on their architect, and they both fell down. The architect first and then the GC. We went through five superintendents here on our project to the general contractor. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 13 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Downie: Oh dear. J Bagby (44:30): And by the end I was like, “Him or no one else.” And so, we got this last guy just to get through and get our building final then and everything. But you name a discipline, you name a part or a section or a wall. I spent time on it. She spent time on it. It's--so now, you know, we're like, we're telling them, we're like, “You guys get to go, you guys get to pack up your shit and leave.” And we get to turn around and actually do what we wanted to do six months ago, or, you know, a year ago. D Bagby: When we started construction, yeah. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: (00:45:07) When we thought we’d be done, especially. J Bagby: We, you know, we need to spend time on--I mean, we're still taking on investors, but we have to start the project. We're still searching out for investors. We're still trying to find our key executive management team and how the hell we're going to run this place. I'm still trying to figure out how to get the rest of the brewery finished off and actually making beer because we didn't want to open without our own beer. And it was just, you know, just kept on, I didn't, I think I lost forty pounds and that last like six months of the other projects before we opened, just because I could never eat, I could never sleep. And I was constantly doing something on a project that sent my stress levels through the roof. So, it was very-D Bagby: And then you get to operate your business. J Bagby: Yeah, and then you open and you know, there's five hundred people here on a Saturday and they all want food and beer. Downie: Excellent. D Bagby (00:45:53): Which is great, yeah. I mean, there is that question. I mean, you just, you don't know until it happens when you open the door for the first time. Is anybody going to be here? And I know that sounds ridiculous when you think of the size of this and even just people curious. Obviously, there will be people that are curious that are cruising by, but you really don't know. I mean, it is, you don't--you don't really let yourself think that because you can't. You just have to continue to stay true to your goal and your vision. And once you start, you can't stop. I mean, it's go time. And so, when you do finally open the doors, it's amazing. It is. It's kind of amazing that people are here. And I remember the first, like week we were open, it felt really strange that there were people here I didn’t know. (00:46:37) I was like, “Who are these people? Oh, shoot. They're supposed to be here. That's right.” (Downie laughs) It was just very weird. And we had spent so much time here over the, you know, proceeding two years that it was--it was home. We were here three hours to one, the number of hours, or four hours to one, the number of hours we would spend at home for sure. And so, this was home. And so, we knew every contract, we knew every subcontractor. We knew everybody. And they knew us. And so, when it was time to let strangers in, (laughs) it was weird. But, you know, you get over that pretty quickly. J Bagby: Yeah. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 14 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: Because they are spending money. Downie (00:47:14): Of course, talking about the ‘curious’ issue, are you going to come back? D Bagby: Yeah, of course. Downie: Because just a one-time visit isn't going to keep you going. D Bagby (00:47:21): That’s right. Yeah, that's right. And that's still something that's, you know, on the operational side that we are always striving for. We want to be that place that people are like, “I can't wait to go back there.” We're still young though. And I that's the counterpoint to that is first of all, never stop trying. I mean, there's always something we can do better, always something we can refine. Always a better way or a more efficient way or a way that's going to make our guests happier. So, we are always pushing. We never, ever stopped. And I don't think we ever will. That's just our personalities. And luckily, it's the same--those personality traits are reflected our management team. So, they all feel the same way too. There's absolutely nobody on that team that is not completely there with us. Ready to just keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And our staff, it goes all the way to them. (00:48:09): The people that are attracted to a place like this to work here. They, you know, they like that it's family. They liked that it's unique and different. They like that we're always pushing the envelope, trying to come up with cool new things or new ways or whatever the case. And so, it starts to draw in people who are naturally attracted to that. And so, they have a really kind of an inherent flexibility that is critical, but we couldn't have scripted that. I didn't really realize that, but it is true. We are--we ask a lot of them. We ask them to be very nimble and to do something very different one day than they did the day before, because we're trying to— J Bagby: Sorry, I’ve got to go downstairs and talk to them for a minute. D Bagby: Okay. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: Okay, I'll be right back. I got to set up a potential account with some tasting. D Bagby: Doing some tasting. Do you want to bring them upstairs for a taste? J Bagby: You did ask a question and that was what attracted us to this? Just going to finalize that and say the space. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) D Bagby (00:49:09): Yeah, the space for sure was the deciding factor. But when he called me from here and I've told this story before, and he said--I asked, you know, the data, like, how big is it? What's going on? And when he started to rattle off the statistics, I'm like, in my mind, “There's no way this is going to happen. (Downie laughs) There's no way.” And then every little hurdle you cross over, you knock that domino down and then pretty soon you're signing your lease. And it still doesn't really feel real until then. And then even then it doesn't feel real until— Downie (00:49:38): But you've been disappointed once already so-- Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 15 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: Yeah. Downie: So it was kind of like you don't exactly want to get too invested— D Bagby (00:49:44): Once you sign the lease though, and you are a personal guarantee on that. It's yours. And so, then it's like, what do you do with that? Because there is a certain amount of money that if you just--even if you decide to never do anything with it, you're paying on your own personal account for that. So, and we knew that it was a big risk of the landlords, the owners. We knew that we wanted to not disappoint them too, as another layer in all of this. But I really didn't believe it was going to happen until it started happening. (laughs) And then the train was going and there was no stopping it, which is good. Downie (00:50:16): Yeah. So, what about your background, Dande? As far, as you know, you said you worked in a Fortune 500 company. Well, what's your path that got you here? And to actually be supportive of something that you could have very easily said, “No, I don't want to do this.” D Bagby (00:50:31): Yeah. I still do say that sometimes. No, I'm just kidding. No, my background is really weird. But somehow it all sort of feeds into to all the things that we do here. So, I worked in restaurants in high school and a little bit in college. I ended up working for a very small sort of family-run or just a couple of friends started the small kind of Mexican food chain. It was a kind of a spinoff from the Rubio’s chain. So, they had helped Ralph Rubio start Rubio's and they started their own thing. And so, I, you know, started working there my first restaurant job and worked my way up into management. And I'm still friends with the owners of that. They've since sold it all off, but it was really exciting to be a part of a small, very small and growing company. (00:51:18) When I first was hired by them, they had one location. And then ultimately, I think they had seven or eight. Not when I worked there, but at the end of the sort of end of the line for them. And what happened though, was that they set the bar really high. I mean, they treated this little single location, you know, eight hundred square foot taco shop. They treated it as though it was a corporate--very, very organized, very dialed in, very high-quality, high standards when it came to customer service and food service and all of that. Even though it was a walkup counter. So that was my only exposure to restaurants was that. And so, it really, it changed how I saw things, whether it was from a business perspective or from a restaurant perspective. And that was sort of, that became my benchmark, for how to be. How to be a manager, how to be managed, how to treat employees, all of that stuff began then. (00:52:17): And it was my first real job was there. And I worked there for many years while I was--and then I went to school--my degree is in biology from Cal State San Marcos (California State University San Marcos). Downie: My goodness. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. So, I was a molecular cell biology major. But, before that, I wanted to be a zoologist. So, I started at Palomar and my very first class, my very first semester of college at Palomar, was as zoology class. And it was just life science, check the box, get that out of the way. And I fell in love with it and it was everything. I loved it. It was--my instructor was amazing. I don't think she's alive anymore. Dr. Jessup was her name. And she was a genius and I just wanted to absorb a hundred percent of everything she could teach me, I wanted to learn it. (00:53:07) And so that kind of led me-- I worked for the Zoological Society of San Diego for about seven years. So, I left restaurants and did that and finished my degree at Cal State and left. And I taught biology and environmental science at the high school level. I Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 16 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 taught labs--biology labs--at the junior college level for a few years. And then ultimately worked for SDG&E (San Diego Gas & Electric Company) in their Environmental Science Department. And, that's about when I met Jeff. So, I had done all of this sort of teaching and I hadn't worked in a restaurant in a long time. And when he and I first met, he had, like he said, he had beer on tap, both at Oggi’s in Vista where he had been the head brewer and at Pizza Port Carlsbad. And I had always liked beer, but I knew absolutely nothing about it. It was completely foreign to me. I didn't even--it didn't really occur to me that it was something that you could learn about. It just sort of was a thing that existed. And of course that's--couldn't be more wrong (Downie laughs) even then in 2005, even then. And so he's like, “Well come and let's taste some beer at in Vista.” So, we went out there and he just did the tasting, not a flight. I mean he pulled--we had tasters of every beer that was on tap. There must've been a dozen beers or more. And he kind of just lined them up how you would want somebody to kind of learn about beer. And he just was like, “Okay, what does it look like? What does it smell like? What does it taste like? Where do you think that's coming from? What is that? Did you do--?” you know? I remember specifically the hefeweizen he's like, “Do you think we added anything to make that taste like that?” And I was like, “Well, yeah, you probably added some fruit or you added some spice.” And absolutely not. Just from the yeast, and that tied into my biology background. Downie (54:58): Right. D Bagby: And understanding sort of a little bit about, you know, yeast chemistry, yeast metabolism. And then it started to click. I was like, “Okay, this is cool.” And then of course that led into ales and lagers and how they're, you know, metabolized differently. And all of the life cycle and all of that stuff. And so that really kind of itched, or what do you say, like “Scratch that itch” or whatever that science-y stuff. I really, really appreciated on the cellular level, which I had kind of departed from working in environmental science. (00:55:32) So, that was a really huge eye-opener and that was kind of it for me. So, we tasted through all the beers and that created this sort of framework for me that I still rely on today. That's just sort of styles and, you know, parts of the world. And, you know, this is like this. And that's like, you know, whether it's hops in English IPA versus an American IPA and why and how, and, even just the physical I'm like, “I don't know what hop is. I have no idea.” So, he went and he grabbed a handful of hops and was like, “This is what they are. This is what they smell like. This is what they look like. This is where they're grown.” Of course, that led into hop harvest. And that led into fresh hop beer. And I remember specifically that season going down to-- because he still was bartending. (00:56:17) So, he had, he left Pizza Port or--excuse me, he left Oggi’s and Vista and he was head brewing in Carlsbad and he was still bartending at Solana Beach. And I lived in Cardiff at the time. And so, I would go visit him on his bartend. I think he would work Wednesday nights and same thing. He'd be like, “Well, taste this, have a taste of this.” And I specifically remember fresh hop beers that season because it was unlike anything I'd ever had before. They were--it was just amazing to me. It was this bouquet of--it really tasted like drinking flowers. And that was really exciting. So, every new experience was just something to be learned. Unlike Jeff, I loved school, I loved being a student. I loved studying and I still do. I still love to learn. So does he, but even in that, even in an academic setting, I loved at all. (00:57:05) And so it created this never-ending quest for information and knowledge and then that tied into experience. And so, when we would travel to whether it was in California or abroad or wherever, it creates this sort of, I don't know, structure, if you will. This kind of map or pathway for learning that, you know, whether it's about people or history or the ingredients and where they came from. And so that became, it became a passion of mine as well. And this was pretty close to right away. So, you know, within the first year or so of us dating, you know, we were going to events, we were traveling for beer. We were, you know, it just became part of our shared thing. But also, I loved learning from him too. And, yeah, and he's right. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 17 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 (00:57:57) We started talking about opening a place, or that he wanted to open a place, pretty quickly. I mean, it was certainly not something that was going to be happening anytime soon, but it was again part of the discussion. And so, when you're traveling somewhere, you're going--his family, his father's side is from Northern Arizona, Prescott. Little town called Prescott. So, you know, we were traveling out there once or twice a year to visit his grandfather and kind of hang out and there's Prescott Brewing Company. So, we'd go there and just kind of talk about whether it was the beers or the styles or the hop choices or whatever to--do you think how’s the service? Is that are--what would we do differently? What about the glassware? Does this seem right? And--or how's the check presented? I mean, everything, it just became part of the fabric of what we talked about. And, yeah, that lasted and it's still true. It's still true today. And we go places and we look at how just the, how the operational side, how people are solving their own problems and you know, are those things we can borrow or are they things that we would never do because they don't fit with who we are. So that's how, that's the weird biologybiologist into brewery owner. Downie (00:59:15): Everybody comes from somewhere. D Bagby: That’s right. Downie: Actually, you know, like you say, the whole hops chemistry. You know, Jackie Trischman in Chemistry at Cal State (University San Marcos) is working with Stone investigating hops chemistry. D Bagby: That’s awesome. Downie: So, you know, Bonnie Bade (Cal State University San Marcos) in Anthropology is medicinal plants, Native American medicinal plants, and looking at how those can be incorporated into beers and things, so… D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: So, it's--you can pull a whole lot of different disciplines and interests and experiences into-D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: The whole world of beer. D Bagby (00:59:45): Absolutely. And that, and the whole historical piece too, is something that both Jeff and I are really passionate about. And that's a big reason why we have such diversity in terms of the beer styles that we brew here. He brews here because of that. They, you know, a Belgian blonde brings us--brings us back to Brussels. It brings us back to visiting with our friend Yvan (De Baets) from (Brasserie) de la Senne, you know? That to us is a big reason why we wanted to do this also is to bring pieces of these experiences that we've had all over the world right here. And if somebody is able, isn't able, or doesn't know they want yet to go to Belgium or they don't know they want to go to Germany or maybe they never will, you know? If we can bring a little piece of that to them, that's whether it's the beer, the glassware, the, you know, a little bit of history lesson through our employees. That's all--that's a big, that's a huge piece of this for us. So having a big staff is a challenge. Per slight understatement. Downie: How many employees do you have? Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 18 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: We have about sixty employees now. Yeah. Which is the smallest staff we've ever had. We-when we first opened and you always open with more than you need, but we had over a hundred employees at one point. Downie: Wow. D Bagby: Which is a big, huge thing. Lots of people. J Bagby (01:01:06): Through all of that, through all of the construction, through all of the opening and employees (unintelligible), I like to tell people that absolutely nothing surprises me anymore. D Bagby: No J Bagby: Nothing. D Bagby: No, no. J Bagby: I've heard it all, seen it all at all. Been through it all. Yeah. Downie (01:01:22): And you're still standing. D Bagby: Yeah. We are. Yep. Downie: So, you've already said that you really don't look to expand beyond this site and it seems like it's large and you have plenty of elbow room but— J Bagby (01:01:39): We could even expand onsite because we have a building that we haven't really even touched—(speaking at the same time) D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Touched. Yeah. Downie: You’re kidding. D Bagby: Yeah. Downie (01:01:44): So you have expansion elbow room. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. Downie: But since you're not canning beers now, what are your plans for the future in, you know, distribution or canning or--? J Bagby (01:01:56): So, we've gone back and forth. What--we looked pretty seriously at purchasing a canning line. Mike Hess (Mike Hess Brewing) was selling theirs. So, I went down and looked at it, kind of Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 19 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 ran some numbers and looked at it. But we wouldn't have been a good idea for cashflow for one thing. And the other was, we didn't have that output really. So, we'd have this really-D Bagby: Beautiful. J Bagby: Nice canning line and it would be lovely to put a ton of beer in cans, but no output for it. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (1:02:24) Which, you know, cart before the horse or not, or whatever, it's sometimes you just have to jump in. And so, we decided not to at that point, but it is something that's on the mind, especially with a lot of our beers that tend to be growing in popularity and that we think would be really good in a package or in the proper package. So, that's still a possibility. But we haven't decided what step we're going to take first in doing that. So, there is a possibly of that in the next year or two, three. Other than that, I really want to continue pushing our draft distribution because it's something that we can do in the framework that we have. We have the beer, we have cooperage, we can get more cooperage very easily. And the capital outlay isn’t as much, and the space requirement is not as much or as intense as packaging. What else, what else? D Bagby (01:03:23): We one hundred percent self-distribute in California. So, we don't have a distributor anywhere. J Bagby: Out of state we have (unintelligible). D Bagby: Out of state, yeah, we (unintelligible). J Bagby: We’re not spending a lot out beer of out of state, yeah. (Aside to D Bagby, Forgot to tell you I talked to Matt Bonney yesterday about Washington.) D Bagby: Oh, okay, cool. J Bagby: So, we'll do some stuff up there, but anyway. (laughs) D Bagby (01:03:40): There you go. Heard it here first before I even heard it. (laughs) No, just kidding. J Bagby (01:03:44): And he called me during the party. D Bagby (01:03:45): Yeah. So self-distribution. We want to do that as long as we can. As a young business, (unintelligible), the margins on draft wholesale beer are already pretty, pretty low. So, you want to try to maximize as much revenue as you can at this stage of a business. There's also a lot of interesting things happening. I try to kind of dial into this a little bit as much as I can. There's a lot going on with this whole notion of hyper-local and, you know, being the kind of brewery that, and there are lots of them, that have these humongous, very ambitious goals to be in every state or to be in twenty states or to be all over the place right now. And I certainly don't disparage that, that's part of their business model and that's what they think is awesome. (01:04:34): Go for it. But it's really feeling a lot like people are more, appreciating more and more, what's right near them. And you see certain breweries that are drawing back from that, that broad scale distribution more and more-- Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 20 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby: Or just staying where they are. D Bagby: (1:04:55) Or are just staying where they are, yeah. They say steady is the new growth. So, I think we're just, we're kind of a cautious company. We don't take a lot of big risks. Maybe because we have such a gigantic property here and so much going on that we don't have to. I mean, we don't even have the energy really to make big plans. But, no, we do talk a about what's next and where, where are we going to grow. And I do think even locally--we, you know, Jeff said, when he tries to sell someone beer, we actually haven’t actively sold any beer. Every drop of beer that hasn't been sold over our bar here at the pub has been somebody coming and saying, “Hey, I want to have your beer on at my place.” So, they reach out to us either, you know, usually via email. J Bagby (01:05:41): That’s who I just met downstairs. And he is a friend, but they came to us to taste. More traditional sort of setup like, “Hey, can you send your rep by and bring some of your beers? I'd like to taste them on tap.” D Bagby: Yeah, we do not have a rep. (laughs) J Bagby: I'm the rep. D Bagby (01:05:56): We don’t have one of those. Yeah. (J Bagby laughs) Part of it is too--and so that’s, it’s kind of nice that that’s, because then we know the accounts that have come to us really already get it. They already understand what we do and appreciate that enough to reach out, but we do not, we understand that is not sustainable. And the growth that we really do want to realize on the wholesale side is only achievable with some outreach. And that’s something that is--we know, we both acknowledge that that’s really important. But we also, again talk about kind of risk aversion. We were— it's still too close to us. We don’t want to just hire a sales rep and tell them to go out in the world and sell the beer. It’s really hard to let go of it and to, you know, just be those, just say, “Oh yeah, go for it. Volume volume. Get it.” (01:06:42) Because it still really matters to us who’s pouring it. How they’re pouring it. Are they taking care of the kegs? Is the glassware appropriate? Is it clean? Are the lines clean? All we need is somebody to have a beer like this Kölsch that I'm drinking that is so delicate. And such a light beer that, you know, if it’s not cared for it is going to be flawed. And you know, most people don't drink a beer and think that they don’t like and think that it isn’t the brewer (laughs) or the brewery. Most people do not say, “Oh, those lines must be dirty. That's why this does not taste right.” So, it’s just cautious and definitely overly cautious. I’ll say we are very careful. And, you know, that’s, at some point we're going to have to start peeling our fingers off those kegs a little more forcefully and get out there in the world and really see. We hear from time to time that people believe that we just don't have any beer to sell. Because we aren’t actively selling it, which isn’t true. We make a lot of beer and we sell a lot of beer over our own bars, but we definitely have some volume that could go out much more than it is. So, we’re working on it. Got our hands pretty full. (laughs) Downie (01:07:57): Now, this is something, you know, because you are both cautious people, but what if something happened and your landlord decided to sell the property? J Bagby (01:08:08): So, there's provisions in our lease that say that I can’t change our lease. Downie: Okay. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 21 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Downie: It was very protective. D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: (1:08:15) It was very protected line by line that thing to make sure things like that like they couldn’t say, “Oh, we are going to sell a parking lot to a developer for apartments.” They can’t do that, you know? So, if they sell it our lease stands. D Bagby: And we can buy it too, we have to be considered. J Bagby: We don’t have first right of refusal. D Bagby: Something else called that. J Bagby: (1:08:38) Their landlord or their rep did not want to give that--our landlords have kids. I would not see them giving up this property to somebody unless we just came by and plopped the amount of money on them, which can happen. And, you know, I know that the people that own these shops kind of behind the alley-D Bagby: West of us. J Bagby: The other side, are trying to develop it and turn it into apartments. J Bagby (01:09:07): I'm like, that is a six-year project. If Coastal Commission-D Bagby: It’s the Coastal Commission. Downie: Yeah, it’s a coastal commission. Will even allow it. D Bagby: Yeah, if the city-J Bagby: (1:09:17) We are so lucky to avoid those things, you know? We don’t have a conditional use. It was in the beginning we had some neighbors that were complaining. And I think it was just because people were parking on the street. It’s public parking on the street. And they were just getting mad because they used to park in front of their house at a certain time of night. And it wouldn’t be a problem. You know, because we’re—anyway. Somebody came and complained and said, “Oh, well, I'm going to go to the city. And you know, I’ve already started signatures to get your conditional use removed and dah-dah-dah.” And I was like, “Well, that’s cool, but we don’t have a conditional use.” And (the city has nothing to do over what we do here as a business. Because we’re permitted as a right. So, (whispers) sorry about that. (laughs) D Bagby (01:09:58): Yeah, it was, we haven’t really, honestly, for being as close as we are to residential, we have had virtually no issues other than the first probably month we were open where people were kind of caught off guard maybe by the volume. But that’s, I mean, at least as far as I'm aware, we haven’t had any issues. We haven’t had any issues. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 22 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby (01:10:16): I had a couple of things. There was that one guy that, you know, I think he just wanted to come in and kind of rant. And I was nice to him. I just let him go. And when I said, you know, “I want to work with you. I want to work with the community, but you got to realize that, you know, the streets are public parking and unless you get that changed, which you're perfectly willing to try to try to do, but I don't believe the city is going to let you just for your spot in front of your house. And you know, I want to help you. We have the required parking that we're supposed to have for the use that we have here per our agreements with the city. And, you know, really sorry if there's any incidents or things that, you know, please feel free to call us.” Like just, you know, kill them with kindness kind of thing. And you know, reminded him that he really could not do anything about it. D Bagby (01:11:05): Yeah, you live on a commercial zone, basically the boundary of a residential and commercial coming together. And that can be a challenge, especially because there wasn't anything here, no operating business for years. And even when the dealership was still going, I mean, they wouldn't--there wasn't so much parking demand. Yeah. That would have ever affected them. So, I get it. I would be upset too, probably, but— Downie (01:11:26): But yeah. And change is always going to have somebody not happy. D Bagby (01:11:30): Absolutely. That's true. Yeah. Sweat (01:11:33): I actually have to go. I'm overseeing an event in Encinitas here in a second, so I have to run. D Bagby: I hope you don’t run into any traffic. Sweat: We’ll see what happens. (laughs) Downie: It should be pretty good by now. Sweat: I'll follow up with you tomorrow just to make sure you have everything you need and just see what any next steps are. But, let me know in the meantime if you need anything. Downie: Thank you, Holly. D Bagby: Thanks Holly. Downie: I wish you a safe and easy drive. Sweat: Thank you, I know. D Bagby: (01:12:00): I hope so too. Holly, we'll look at those pictures today, too. I know you guys are asking and we just have had a crazy few days. Sweat: Yeah, we know with your party. D Bagby: Yeah. (laughs) Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 23 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Sweat: It looked like a lot of fun. D Bagby: It was a lot of fun. Sweat: And honestly, if you are only able to decide on like, a few, I could do the ones of Jeff just to get them to see. D Bagby: Yes, I'll do that tonight before I leave. For sure. And how many do we need to give her? Total? Or selection? Sweat: It’s in the email, like, how many you guys agreed to pay for. D Bagby: I can’t remember. Sweat: It might be one or two or Jeff. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: That we agreed upon. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: But yeah. D Bagby: Thank you. Sweat: It’s nice to see you both. D Bagby: You too. Drive safe. Downie (01:12:37): So, if you can still give me a little more time. I know I had just an hour, so I don’t (unintelligible)--. J Bagby (01:12:41): Sure. I might check in on that account in a minute, but yeah, if you have some more questions, for sure. Downie (01:12:50): You both sound like you're very, very invested in education, you know, which is a wonderful thing. What would you say, I mean, do you support any charities or causes through the brewery that you feel like you want to talk about? Or, are there plans to expand your reach into, you know, goodwill gestures besides listening to irate neighbors? (all laugh) J Bagby (01:13:15): It's hard, you know? We get approached almost every day about some sort of donation for something. We have an outlet on our website where you can fill out a form and apply. And while we like supporting charities and the community, it's difficult because there are so many of them. And we like to look at the ones that either we've supported either personally in the past, or that we have a connection to through a family member or a very good friend. Where we can say, “Okay, you Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 24 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 know, this is important to us because of this.” You know, while we like also doing this, we're also running a business. So, at some point you can't--you have to close the doors a little bit on it and say, “Look, we want to help you out. But you know, you're asking—" we could do it. The easiest thing for us to do is donate beer. But the hardest thing for us to donate is beer because of the licensing required for the nonprofit to actually get it. And they don't understand that. Downie: I’ve run into that. (laughs) J Bagby: And we always have to be the one that's like, well, “We'd love to help you out, but there's this, this, this, and this.” Downie (01:14:22): Yeah, and more education. And what Stone did—because I approached Stone about some beer to maybe put into a scholarship raffle that we do through the Society of California Archivists I belong to. And it was, “Well, what did the ABC (California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control say?” And then I ran into the ABC and I just went, for the permits we'd have to get, it's just, you know, it would eat up what little money we would make. So, and I understand that completely because (unintelligible). D Bagby: Yeah, we’ve seen it. But, with that said, we are involved. J Bagby (01:14:51): Yeah, I mean, we just had two weeks ago or, not this past week and the weekend before, we had a gigantic breast cancer benefit festival on our parking lot that a lot of our staff members donate their time to. We donate beer to, we donate food to—yeah, we donate space. And basically, we host the charity. And that was something that I started with the woman who founded the festival back at Pizza Port. Downie: Is that Brewbies? J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's the biggest one that we have. And then this one that we just had almost raised almost fifty thousand dollars for charity. Downie: Wow. Wonderful. J Bagby: And so, you know, knowing that and having been involved with this one for nine of them now, and being in the beer industry in general, I'm always getting asked, I'm very diligent about when we get a request for a festival because sometimes, first and foremost, sometimes the festival isn't necessarily great for the charity. (01:15:46) There'll be a promotional company--excuse me, that we'll get out there, go up to a charity and say, “Hey, we can make you five thousand dollars if you pull the license for this,” you know? But they don't realize the potential risks involved or the insurance liability that they have to take on, different things like that. And the production company ends up taking the majority of the money because the proceeds. Now it's illegal because one hundred percent of it with that one day ABC license is supposed to go to the charity. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 25 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Downie: Right. J Bagby: So, if someone squats, the ABC can say, “Hey, we need to see your books.” And then not only does the charity get in trouble, which they may not even be aware of. Downie: Right. J Bagby: But that promotional company, and even the breweries could get in trouble because they donated to it. Another thing is on our side, not only are we just donating beer but probably donating two people's full day’s worth of time to get the beer ready to go to the event, to get all the equipment together, to drive to wherever it might be to set up, to pour, take it all down and bring it all back home, clean it all. (01:16:43): And so, people don't realize what really goes into it on our side when we're donating. We're not just donating a beer, we’re donating quite a bit more so we're pretty diligent about those. But that's really the easiest way for us to support a charity or a community event, unfortunately. Downie (01:17:03): But those are facts that, you know, people need to be aware of. And you both talked about how much learning you've had to do along this path. D Bagby (01:17:13): We’ve done some kind of other fundraisers, though. J Bagby: Yeah, we've done some onsite things. D Bagby: There have been a couple of military things that we've supported and— J Bagby (01:17:25): And the dogs, yeah. D Baby (01:17:27): So there's a few things that we really, really kind of key into that mean a lot to us. But yeah, I think as a— J Bagby: Firefighter-D Bagby: Pint Project. J Bagby: Yeah. (01:17:38) A couple of onsite things that were pretty successful and, you know, we're just--you get back to this, like you can't do them all, you know? And as not nice as it sounds, it does need to benefit us in some way as well. Because we are offering up a lot when we do these things and why we want to help the community, we want to help these people that need help in some way, we just have to be careful. D Bagby: Yeah. Exactly. Downie (01:18:07): Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, not every charity is a 501(c ) or is required and you get into all kinds of thin ice. So, very understandable. But, no. D Bagby (01:18:19): Now that's one of the things that I think is a benefit to us as Jeff has made it his mission and his absolute business to know as much as he can about ABC licensing. Just any sticky situations that are pitfalls. The San Diego Brewers Guild (a nonprofit organization that promotes San Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 26 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Diego breweries) just hosted like a ABC meeting at a local brewery a couple of weeks ago. And I feel like we knew a lot of that stuff that was mentioned, but it's still great to go and be a part of that. J Bagby: It’s like a refresher course. D Bagby: It’s a refresher. But you can just see in the room, people— J Bagby And you get questions and hands go up. And you’re thinking “You can’t do that.” D Bagby (01:18:58): Yeah. yeah. So, it was really interesting to see people's reaction to these rules that many of not all--I've been really long standing for a long time, but if you don't know, you don't know. And I think there's a lot of ask for forgiveness later, which may have worked in the past, but as the ABC gets more versed, they get--there are certain things that they were getting very particular about as they should. Downie (01:19:31): Well, once they see it as a continual problem, that it keeps happening, they're going to start coming down and— D Bagby (01:19:37): Yeah, and it's, you know, it is--I believe that it is your job as if you're going to have a license that you should know how it works and what--it's a responsibility. And it's hard for us to sometimes see other breweries who don't know. And that's fair if you don't know initially, but that blatantly break these laws all the time. And you don't want to see them get in trouble, but you also don't want to set up. It sets expectations on the customer side it sets expectations on other breweries’ sides were like, well, “They did it, why can't I?” And so of course for people like us who, like I said, risk averse, we want to make sure that we're--I mean, our biggest asset, those are the alcohol license. That's why we're here. So, if something happens to that, it gets jeopardized that's--that is a bad thing. (laughs) Very bad. So, yeah, it's, it's been talking about education. That's something that I've learned a lot from Jeff. And we've offered up if anybody has questions certainly here locally, you know, we're always available. People want to bounce an idea or, you know, find out more, we're happy to help. Downie (01:20:46): So, you're active in San Diego Brewers Guild. Because I saw you at Guild Fest (SD Brewers Guild Fest) and you just mentioned a recent meeting. Are there any other organizations you're active in or are members of--? J Bagby (01:20:58): We’re members of the Brewers Association, the National, um— D Bagby: CCBA. J Bagby: And the California Craft Brewers Association. Also, the MBA, the Masters Brewers Association of America. D Bagby: I'm actually a board member on the— J Bagby: San Diego. D Bagby: Brewer’s Guild. But yeah, there's a lot of those little things like that. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 27 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby (01:21:19): I think those are the main ones, but those are all, I mean, there's some international stuff, but yeah. Downie (01:21:26): Yeah. What are you going to get involved in? I mean, again, it's kind of like the finding the charities that are actually going to be beneficial. Is that going to benefit you? J Bagby (01:21:36): (unintelligible) international. Well, yeah. I was going to say the only benefit for us because, you know, they have incredible conferences and technical courses. (Downie laughs) That would probably be the only reason for us to really be a part of those. And there's some competitions, there's some, some bigger European competitions that are gaining a lot of speed and a lot more Americans are actually sending beer over and winning medals. So, it's something to watch. But yeah, it's not like, you know, where we're going to Brau and Nuremberg every year or something like that. Downie (01:22:08): Well, that does bring up. When did you start putting your beers into competition? D Bagby: Good question. J Bagby (01:22:14): That was back when I was at Pizza Port at Solana Beach. We entered beers at Stone, but they weren't really--I didn't have anything to do with the recipes of those beers. Downie: Okay. You were an assistant. J Bagby: I was just standing there, but when I got to Solana Beach and was working with Tomme, some of those were my ideas and my things where I brewed them, or we brewed them together. It's a bit more intimate and I was a little bit more involved. So, I would say there, really. And that's where, you know, won, our first, or my first time across the stage. (laughs) Downie (01:22:50): Have you kept a list of all the awards you've won (unintelligible)? J Bagby (01:22:55): She did quite a bit of work on that before our business case. Before we opened. But I think she ended up just tallying GABF awards and World Beer Cup awards. Because there's certainly other things, too. There's like Alpha King. I’ve won that three times. That's the Hoppy Beer Competition that they hold during the GABF, that’s not associated with the GABF. Some awards at San Diego International Beer Festival, what do you call it? Beer of the Year, three times there. And some various other medals in, you know, have we ever entered LA county? A couple of times. So, you know, some things here and there. IPA festivas up and over North and Hayward. Years ago, I won medal at the Alaska Beer and Barleywine Festival. Downie (01:23:45): Oh, Alaska. Wow. You've really reached out here. J Bagby (01:23:48): It's a very long running, very famous festival. Downie (01:23:52): I’ve heard of it, yeah. But it just seems very interesting to me that if somebody were keeping a list of what beers they had won awards for, I think that would tell a story about some of the changes in styles and some of the expansion of styles of beers. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 28 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby (01:24:07): Yeah, yeah. Maybe, I don't know. I was talking to somebody. I was in Miami at a festival this past weekend. A friend of mine, his anniversary for his brewery. And he throws a festival that coincides with it. It's invitational. Anyway, he invited me and I was like, “Yeah, I've never been to Miami. I'll go.” So anyway, I was talking to another brewer friend who was there and he was like, “Oh, well, you know, you won lots of IPA (India Pale Ale) medals,” and you and I was like, “Boy, yeah, I won some of those,” but also won in Belgians and a lot of different stout medals. And, I even have a couple of German pilsner medals. Some other like, you know, Scotch Ales, like Brown Ales. It's kind of a wide gamut. So, I don't know if my medal history would necessarily tell much of a story in that way. Maybe. Downie (01:25:02): Yeah. Well, I think the more pieces of evidence there are, the more our story can be put together. But have you ever done judging? J Bagby (01:25:10): Oh yeah. Yeah. I've been a judge at the GABF (Great American Beer Festival) and the World Beer Cup for thirteen years. Thirteen, fourteen years now. I don't remember my first judge GABF. It was like 2003, I think. So, yeah. I've been doing that for a long time and I'll be doing that this year in National. Downie (01:25:33): Yeah. I've heard comments that GABF has gotten so big and so many categories that has just really become kind of overwhelming. How do you feel about that? J Bagby (01:25:43): I wished that they would, on the organization side, that they would grow the competition to represent the growth in the beer industry. I get what they're trying to do and what then they have limitations, but sometimes I think they're being a little harsh on the restrictions on their side. You know, there's almost eight thousand beers in there, in the GABF last year, and I'm sure the World Beer Cup will be around that. And I think there's seventy-nine categories. They haven't expanded the categories too much in the last five years. I think maybe ten years ago there might've been sixtysomething categories. So, it hasn't expanded a whole lot, but what has is the entries, right? So, brewers used to be able to enter around eight beers per brewery, or brewhouse, location into the competition. They've changed that and they have several different categories in ways, you know, like a Pizza Port that has five locations. (01:26:44) You know, what if all five locations enter beers? Well, they have stipulations on how many beers a corporation, or a set of breweries, that are under one ownership can enter. So, every year that we've been a brewery, we've entered the maximum number of beers that we can enter into the GABF. And that makes it difficult because you only have four shots, right? Like we're sending four beers to the World Beer Cup. So, it's a more difficult. But so does everybody else. And so, everyone else has to make the decisions and the kind of cuts in their mind of which beers they want to enter, which ones that they're going to pass on for this year or this competition or whatever it is. So, it's still very fair. I think it's still judged very fairly. Probably the most fair competition there is in beer because of the qualities, the qualifications of the judges, and their palates and their history and their tenure as judges judging beer. It's all judged blind. It’s done very, very well. (01:27:54) The problems I see with it are the categories that are masked, or you have over two hundred beers in the category: American IPA, Imperial IPA. I think American Pale Ale is pretty high. Some of these other ones that they get close to, you know, that are well over one hundred beers. You're getting into a situation where the algorithm isn't--so, you know, when they're spitting out their initial rounds and the algorithm that isn't accounting for past medal winners. Or beers--so you could have a round that has eleven beers in it, say it's American IPA, and that round might not have a single beer that's ever been in the competition before, or all new breweries that have never been to a competition for it. Then you could have another set of eleven beers where every single one of those beers has won a medal in the American IPA category Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 29 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 before. (01:28:49) And they’re, as far as I know, they're not accounting for that. And to me, that changes the game a little bit. Because even if you're a judge and you, at which has happened before, you'll get around and you'll be like, “Man, it was tough to pass on three of those beers, really could have passed on two or even just one and save the judges down the road some tasting.” Well, they require you to pass on three. They really push you to pass on three. If you absolutely can't then they want to hear why and want to hear an explanation. And so, I just believe that in that sense, you know, well maybe it's okay, but in the other sense where they're like, “Man, we had eight good beers. It was really hard to only pass on three beers.” (01:29:39) So, now you've got this thing where you might have a potential medal winner that gets knocked out early because it was in a round with all excellent beer. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's--if I had a complaint about them, I wished that they would account for that. Especially in those--there's only, I'm talking to a handful of categories where that is really something I think that comes into play. The only other thing might be, like I said, to have grown with the competition or with the industry and allow brewers to enter more beers. But that takes more time. It takes more judges. They try to get the judging done in three days. If they didn't, they'd have to get another day, which is paying more, but you have to pay to enter the competition. So, to me, there's some work that probably could still be done. (01:30:33) And there is a lot of brewers out there that are like, “Oh GABF. It's kind of eh.” You know, I believe in what my beers are and I send them and either I don't win medals or other beers win medals in the category that I entered that I don't think are as good as my beer. I think you have people that feel like that. But having been a judge, I've been on the tables. I've never been in a case where I was like, “That beer should have won a medal and it's not in the top three,” you know? I've never had a case where there wasn't a lot of thought and a lot of time spent into the beers that actually win medals. They’re medal-winning beers. Downie (01:31:15): Okay. I had a question and it’s just completely slipped my mind. J Bagby: Sorry. I know. Downie: No, that's okay. It still had to do with this. Um, I don’t know. (laughs) J Bagby: With the competition, or--? Downie: Well, oh, I know what it is. The brewers themselves decide what style of beer they’ve brewed. Have you run into cases where you taste a beer and you go, “This has--should have been in this category, you know. What were they doing putting it in here?” J Bagby (01:31:43): Yeah. Yeah. And the BA (Brewer’s Association) is real upfront about that when they tell brewers, you know, read the style guidelines and make sure that your beer fits into those guidelines and they give you everything. They give you a verbal description of the bitterness, color, aroma, mouthfeel, text--you know, everything. And then they also give you actual numbers for alcohol range, color range. Those are the things you need to pay attention to. And I feel like there is brewers that still don't pay attention to that. I don't know how or why. Or if they've just mislabeled their beers or what happened. But, they're—it’s pretty upfront. Like, this is--the judges have this when they're sitting at their table and they're going to read this before they start judging your beer. So, why would you enter something that doesn’t fit? Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 30 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Downie (01:32:39): Yeah, because you don't know why. Because I was thinking, well, maybe it's just their taste buds are different? Or it didn't transport well. (laughs) J Bagby: (01:32:48): Yeah. I think, you know, for instance, she (D Bagby) sent me a picture one day. She had a Kölsch earlier. I can't remember what brewery she was drinking at. But she sent me a picture and it was this hazy beer in a straight sided pint glass. And she wrote “Kölsch--?” And so of course I went, “What does it taste like? Where are you at? Blah-blah-blah.” But a lot of people would look at that and go, “Well, Kölsch should be bright,” you know? Any German from Cologne is going be like, “That's hazy,” that’s got--you know. Even chill haze shouldn't really be there in a Kölsch. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: And a brewer's interpretation is one thing of what they call it on their menu board versus, you know, what category they might enter it in GABF. So, a beer like that might be an entered in a Keller beer. Because it might be an unfiltered Kölsch. So, they might say, well, “Yeah, it's German style Kölsch,” but it's actually a Keller beer because it was brewed in the vein of a Kölsch, but Keller is a German style beer. Downie: (01:33:46): And that’s “K-E-L-L-E-R?” J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Okay. I'm still learning all the— J Bagby (01:33:53): Oh yeah, there’s tons. And that's-Downie: There’s huge number of beer styles. J Bagby: Yeah, and there's, you know, historical beers that are becoming more popular and more rare, more obscure recipes and styles where there's a little bit more confusion or debate over what is actually correct. The Brewer’s Association does a good job of refining their categories and reviewing them each year. So, they take judge's interpretation—or judge’s comments on style descriptions. “No, no, this actually should be this way,” or “This should allow for this and this as well as this,” you know, so they do a good job of keeping up with that. But yeah, if you, you know, taste a brewer’s altbier at one brewery, and then he goes to another brewery and tastes another brewer’s altbier, they could be completely different beers. So, there that slide in judgment, but when you get into competitions, where's the category of your beer doesn't fit in it, then don't enter it. (laughs) Downie (01:34:54): Well, I mean, brewing is such a creative process. And there are as best as you can try certain factors like, you know, a Centennial hop may not be exactly the Centennial hop it was the year before due to the growing season, the factors there. So, it really is a creative process, but I've been kind of interested in the whole, you know, yes, I've seen some of these categories and descriptions and I'm like, “How can you always guarantee that those beers?”--well, obviously not. Not surprised. J Bagby (01:35:28): Yeah, there's interpretations of (unintelligible) category descriptions in different ways, for sure. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 31 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Downie (01:35:35): Well, while you were meeting that account, Dande was telling me how, you know, when she first met you, how you were educating her into all the varieties of beers, you know? How she has found that to be so helpful. And then just the brewers I meet all seem to be that way as they to educate someone who--on the various styles that they're brewing or they're enjoying right at the time. Do you find that wearing? You know, continually trying to educate more people? J Bagby: (01:36:06): I think when it's--if I was doing it every day, I think it might get—or the same exact set of beers every day or the same exact descriptions of the same person or the same, you know, whatever. I think I might get a little tired of it. But to me it's kind of exciting, especially when you have somebody that's open to it and isn't restrictive of themselves in their own palates. So, if you have somebody that's like, “I've never tasted German-style Weisse beer. I've never tasted American Red Ale,” which is kind of a better example. “I've never tasted Irish dry stout. I've never tasted—" you know? Whatever it may be. And if you can get five or six of those things in samples right in front of somebody, that's going to be a really cool conversation. Especially if that person's open to tasting and listening and identifying with what you're talking about in each one, you know? When you say, “Oh, what do you smell on that? (01:37:00) What are you getting that? Okay.” Those types of things come from this ingredient or this timeframe or this hop or this malt and--or whatever other specialty ingredient might be there. And when the person identifies and goes, “Oh wow, that's really cool. I never thought of it like that.” All of the sudden you've got somebody who thought they hated German-style hefeweizen and going, “No, actually I'm going to order that the next time I'm out because I want to compare it or I want to see what it's like again, and kind of—"you know? I think people like, you know, connecting the dots in their heads. And if you've given them a little bit, just to even a little bit to bite on like English-style bitter, or an Extra Special Bitter, you know, what does that mean? What does that, it sounds, it sounds harsh, Extra Special Bitter. (01:37:43) Well, no, there's actually some really nice malt depth in ESB (Extra Special Bitter) and it should be there. Well, it should have a firm bitterness, but what kind of bitterness? Well, it's not American piney, citrus, passion fruit, floral. And it's not that kind of hop it's the more herbal, spicy, earthy hop from the English varieties. And even just that much, and a person can go, “Oh, well, I really liked that.” Downie: And it makes it more accessible. J Bagby: And the next time, the next time I see it somewhere, I've got that connection in my brain to go, “Yeah, I know what I'm ordering it and there it is. Affirmation.” I'm drinking it. And it smells and tastes like I remembered. And I was told that it should. And I get that a lot where somebody will say, “Hey, you mentioned that, you know, this style beer can have this, this, and this. But I tried it over here and I got this, this, and this.” (01:38:34) And that's sometimes where the brewer’s discrepancy is between styles or different ingredients or maybe just something is slightly different. But you can explain that away. And therefore, they've learned a little bit more and they have their file on whatever that beer was just got a little bit deeper in their head. So, the next time they try it and they connect the dots again. And I don't know, to me that's fun. That's exciting. And it's really exciting to see when someone's open to that and is engaging in that. It's kind of a little bit difficult when somebody says, “Oh, I don't like bitter beer,” or, “I don't like hops.” And you're like, “Well, you just haven't tried the right hops yet.” It's like, if you like beer and you're say you're a beer drinker, I believe--yes, you can have your favorites and the ones that you don't think are as great to you, but you got to try everything. (01:39:24) You know, there's some newer, crazy styles out there I get, but the basics, ales and lagers, and the families within there, the style of families, if you say you're a beer drinker, you should know those or have a basic framework and Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 32 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 understanding of what those are or have the desire to go, “I've never really tried that. I'm not really familiar with that, but I want to see. I want to see what it tastes like so that I know if I really like it, or I don't.” To like, find that out later, you know, like give yourself the chance to like it. Downie (01:39:56): It's like the three-bite rule with the kid and the vegetable. And then, you know, you got to at least try three bites of it. And then if you don't like it, we'll go from there. So that's a good way to do it. Now, do you have a favorite hop? Is there one that you like brewing with more than others? J Bagby (01:40:12): There’s definitely hops—plural--that I like using. We're a pretty classic traditional brewery. So, we stick to pretty traditional classic styles of beer. So, we're not using too many of the new, exotic, crazier hops. We're sticking to more of the classic American Pacific Northwest American hops and then the Nova varieties and then the English varieties. So, on the American side, you know, we're using a lot of Cascades, Centennial, a little Amarillo and Simcoe, and Columbus and Chinook. And that's kind of our core for the American side, but then the English ones are really wide and Noble hops as well. We use a lot of different varieties and again, not a lot of real new flashy ones, in part because of our contracts, we didn't know how and when our brewery was going to open. So, I bought a lot of hops because I was afraid that we weren't going to have any when we opened. So that drove that a little bit. The other part was just, yeah, I really liked those more classic American hops over some of the newer ones. Not to say that I don't like sprinkling a little of them here and there in brews, but I tend to favor those classic ‘C’ hops (referring to Chinook, Citra and other hops starting with the letter C.) Downie (01:41:30): And so you don't, from what you're saying, I'm hearing that you probably aren't planning on doing, you know, real strange and experimental beers either, you know? You're going to stick with the more--? J Bagby: (01:41:43): No, I think if anything, I would pick some of the more obscure older styles. I’ve talking with some friends about a smoked wheat beer that used to be made that is actually--I believe it's actually a lager yeast and it's a fairly bright beer. But it has a smoked character to it, and a little bit of bitterness and wheat malt character to it. But I'm always afraid to brew smoked beer because I think, I always think that it's going to be me and like three other people drinking it. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Downie (01:42:11): Yeah, it could be a big mistake if you brewed it on your big system. So, do you have a small system that you can do little test batches on? J Bagby: No, it’s— D Bagby: It’s all or nothing. Downie: Well, that goes to being risk averse again. J Bagby (01:42:27): Yeah, we have a little lager on right now. I think it tastes fantastic. I just think it doesn't--I just think it's not exciting to people. It's a Belgium style beer. If you're familiar with Belgian style dubbel, which is basically like a Belgian style brown ale, but it has a Belgian yeast character to it. So, it's a little spicy and dark fruit and things like that. Well, take that and cut it in a little less than half with alcohol and flavors and everything else. We dropped it down to only about four and a half percent. It still has a lot of those characters, they're just a lot more mild and it's not as big and it's not as heavy. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 33 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 But it's not selling at all. (laughs) So, even somebody even called it dark Bud Light in the online comment. Downie: Oh dear. (laughs) J Bagby: That was fun to read yesterday. (laughs) D Bagby: That’s alright. It’s not for everyone. J Bagby: Nope. And that's exactly. That's kind of how we thought about it. Downie (01:43:23): One person's interpretation. J Bagby: Exactly, exactly. Downie: But yeah, if you're seeing that it's not really selling then, you know? You kind of-J Bagby (01:43:31): Yeah, we (unintelligible)-D Bagby: We had a few beers like, but that's, I mean, unfortunately, a few of them were Belgian styles. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But, Bruges Cruise was on for a long time. J Bagby: Well, that's because it was over eleven percent. We had people that loved that beer. But, we sold that at eight ounces at a time. D Bagby (01:43:44): Yeah, but we had it on tap for a year, also. J Bagby: (Unintelligible). D Bagby: They do A12. They do A12. Which is good. Downie (01:43:58): So, do you have much of a barrel aging program? J Bagby (01:44:01): We started one. We had, uh, we did twelve barrels and then we did another set with a different beer of just four barrels. All, most, all of that is gone now. So, we just brewed up Imperial Stout and we're getting ready to purchase thirty barrels. Just deciding what other beers we're going to put in those barrels and talk with the broker about making sure we get them as fresh as possible and which barrels they'll have available at that time. So that we're not filling barrels that have been sitting around drying out for months. They were nice and fresh. Downie (01:44:38): Yeah, you want to be able to extract something out of those barrels. (laughs) J Bagby (01:44:41): Exactly. But it's fun. I like doing it. But we do all straight up beer. We don't use any Wild Geese (blended whiskey) or-- Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 34 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: Cupcakes. J Bagby: Or anything like that. (Downie and J Bagby laugh) So yeah, that’s fun. That's, to me, that's--I don't know, that gets to the uber fun side of brewing. You're like, “Oh, I'm going to put this thing in here.” Well, we had that beer that she was talking about in there for eighteen months and I just served it in Miami last weekend and it tasted phenomenal. Downie: (laughs) Love it when something works. J Bagby: Yeah. And sometimes they're don’t. That’s true. Knock on wood, we were pretty lucky with our barrels. Yeah. Downie (01:45:23): Okay. Well, I think I've exhausted all my questions. I learned a lot from you both. I've very, very, very much appreciated your time. D Bagby: Oh sure, our pleasure. J Bagby (01:45:31): If anything comes up or you're going through things and just feel free to email me or her, and follow up. Downie (01:45:37): Come back with something that didn't record or transcribe or something. D Bagby (01:45:41): Don’t hesitate, we're happy to happy to help and also believe in what you're doing, and also-J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: And also love to talk about all this kind of stuff, people that-J Bagby: Yeah, it’s fun. D Bagby: People that are interested in it. Because, you know, we work so close to it, it's our life. But we are still--we are very passionate about it. And hopefully that comes through a little bit, even in construction stuff, and crazy things like that. Downie (01:46:01): I definitely see you have a future as working as a brewery construction consultant. (J and D Bagby laugh) Because really, you have gone through a lot of effort to educate yourselves and to do it right. And that kind of knowledge really should be shared. I mean, that's something I admire about Mike Hess. He wrote that, you know, ‘starting up a brewery’ webpage, but that still doesn't tap on everything. And especially, you know, doing something like this, of course every situation is going to change with every city you’re dealing with. D Bagby (01:46:34): But there are some basics that I think we would have really benefited from big time. And I think we would have heeded, we would have paid attention if somebody was like, “Hey, we just did this. Here's our experience. I'm here’s just how you can, you know, maybe avoid some of the pain, some of the pain points.” Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 35 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby (01:46:49): Yeah, the building part and you know, the construction management. I mean, I think part of that goes a lot. Like I can use the comparison as somebody's going to buy their brewing equipment and calling up three different equipment manufacturing and saying, “I want to buy a tenbarrel system, give me a quote,” and get three quotes and then just choose which one they want and order the equipment and get it sent. Well, I went up to the equipment manufacturer’s warehouse and talked with the engineers for two days before they even started drawing plans for my tanks. And then when they were about to start doing the finishing and they connection piping and all the process piping, I went back up there and stood in my tanks and looked at all the cores and looked at all the valves were and told them where I wanted to move things moved or changed. (01:47:40) And the different specs on all--every single tank, not just the, the brewhouse stuff, but the cellar as well. Because you might get your tank and go like, “Why the heck is it like that?” And I kind of compare that to construction. Like we could have probably sat around and worked on other things and let them take forever to build this place and would have had something in the end, that would have been, but it wouldn’t been us and it wouldn’t been right. And that's just how we operate. So, I think while we spend a lot of time on that and we feel that it was absolutely one hundred percent necessary, some other people might be like, “Well, he didn't really need to do that. You could of—” D Bagby: Get by. J Bagby: But it's not us. I guess that was what I was trying to say. Downie (01:48:25): You have invested heavily in this, so why not have it right? But, Plan Nine (Plan Nine Alehouse) over in Escondido, I was over there one day and they didn't have any of their own beers on tap. And I said, “Gee, you don't have any of your own, I thought you were brewery.” And he said, “Well, we got new equipment and we've had continual leakage.” D Bagby: Oh no. Downie: And they, you know, this was like nine months that they had been dealing with it. So, you were exactly right in going--and I mean, even if you have to stand in your tanks and (unintelligible)— J Bagby: Well, and it’s kind of fun too. (laughs) Downie: Yeah, yeah. They will say, “Hey, I stood in my tank.” (all laugh) But, yeah. D Bagby: That’s too bad. Downie: So, something like that can go very, very wrong. J Bagby: Yeah, looking at welds and not (unintelligible). D Bagby (01:49:03): And also not having the support, because if you--when, you know, when you got your, whatever it is, whatever contractor you have or manufacturer having--actually, we're just dealing with the meeting before you got here or talking to a new point of sale company. And part of the reason is just a sheer lack of support on our current system. There's no one we can call and say, “Hey, you know our business, you know how we operate. These are the problems we're having.” There's just no one. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 36 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 And so, this other company that's--you absolutely have a person. So having your tanks leaking, you're losing money. You're, you know, that's literally money down the drain, and frustrating if you're a brewery owner, you’re a brewer, you definitely don't want to see your beer going down the drain. Yeah. Do you have the support you need from the manufacturer? Who's going to back up their work and if not, then pay a few more bucks and get somebody who will. J Bagby: Yeah. Downie (01:50:00): Yeah. So, a lesson to live by. D Bagby: Yes, that’s so true. Well, thank you so much. Downie: (01:50:04): Thank you. Yeah, let's see. Where's my stop button? (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 37 2024-03 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview transcript, February 21, 2018. Description An account of the resource Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024. Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations. Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles. Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time. In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer; homebrewing; introduction of craft beer to the region; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery; packaging and distribution; charity work; competitions, judging, and awards; consumer education. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jeff Bagby Dande Bagby Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Holly Sweat Ernest Cisneros Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-21 Subject The topic of the resource Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.) Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_transcript Brewchive(r) Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Seth Stanley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gezai Berhane OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Berhane, Gezai. Interview March 29th, 2023. SC027-37 00:52:04 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos ; California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Student Activities ; California State University San Marcos. Greek life ; Refugees -- Eritrea ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Black experience in America Gezai Berhane Seth Stanley Video 1:|13(11)|24(17)|34(6)|45(6)|61(14)|72(13)|83(14)|95(4)|105(14)|118(16)|132(10)|144(8)|159(16)|171(14)|183(8)|197(6)|208(3)|220(15)|231(7)|249(14)|263(4)|273(7)|285(3)|301(7)|313(5)|323(10)|335(7)|346(16)|360(15)|371(17)|381(8)|395(19)|410(7)|419(6)|429(8)|442(17)|453(12)|464(16)|475(3)|486(12)|500(6)|518(4)|528(5)|539(3)|552(10)|564(8)|573(16)|588(13)|599(6)|610(17)|624(7)|640(8)|643(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a06b713a6fd9a626ce2c5e87acc28e76.mp4 Other video 0 Introduction and Background Seth Stanley introduces Gezai Berhane, who discusses his background as an Eritrean refugee seeking education in the USA. Additionally, Berhane discusses how he came to work for California State University San Marcos. education ; refugee 0 266 CSUSM Early Days Berhane remembers his experience at CSUSM in the early 1980s as the first graduating class. This experience contributed to his later work at the university. 0 427 Cross-Cultural Center Berhane describes the beginning stages of the Cross-Cultural Center, then known as Multicultural Programs, and it's impacts upon the CSUSM campus. Before diversity could be implemented, Berhane considered the center a symbol for future progress. This includes the foundation of future centers such as the Black Student Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. 0 829 Memories Berhane briefly speaks about his favorite part of the Cross-Cultural Center in its early days, before speaking more in detail about his experience as an Eritrean-American. Dealing with ignorance and prejudices, Berhane illuminates the importance of diversity and inclusivity education. From his perspective, Berhane witnessed the lackluster American education and media systems that caused such ignorance. Berhane stresses that ignorance should not be blamed upon individuals, but a system-at-large. 0 1150 Impacts of the Cross-Cultural Center and CSUSM Memories of unexpected encounters in the CCC were among Berhane's memorable highlights. Beyond this, Berhane shares that he cannot necessarily separate the impacts of the CCC from CSUSM. Among the first graduating class, he had a unique experience in that he experienced CSUSM over three decades. The Cross-Cultural Center was one part of his work at the university, and considers his total experience at CSUSM impactful. 0 1397 Student Involvement and Orientation As Student Activities Director, student orientation was where Berhane stressed the importance of involvement. Berhane challenged students to stay engaged with their communities. With the Orientation Team, Berhane remembers the bonding experience of a weekend camping trip. 0 1743 Greek Life The course of Greek Life at CSUSM is detailed by Berhane. Beginning in 1993, when Greek Life was not fully recognized, when Berhane was more directly involved. 0 1957 Student Residential Life Before the main CSUSM dormitories were built, Berhane defines his role in facilitating student residential life at leased apartments. Berhane also discusses memories of involving his family in his work, in addition to perceiving careless waste. Berhane offers his perspective as an Eritrean refugee on American consumerism. 0 2245 Thirty Years at CSUSM Berhane and his family lived in San Marcos and bore witness to the development of the city and university. Berhane considers this experience to have given him life. He is beyond grateful for this experience, and instilled this love for knowledge in his children. 0 2499 Student Center Coexistence Berhane refuses to compare or contrast student centers against one another. He considers every center has its individual purpose which changes over time. Beginning in 1992, Berhane was passionate about providing space for those in need. As a Black student, he recalls the desire for a Black student club. This experience informed his later work to provide services to an ever-evolving student body. The importance of centers / service providers reaching students is also discussed. 0 2834 Advice for Future Inclusivity Regarding the future, Berhane stresses vigilant attention to underserviced communities, including students of Asian descent, who do not have an identity-specific space. Berhane stresses the importance of service providers / centers reaching and engaging with students. 0 Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Gezai Berhane. This is for the California State University San Marcos, Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. Today is March 29th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Gezai, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'll start off with a- with some questions. To start off, could you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to become a part of the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) community? Gezai Berhane: Well, that's a good question, and thanks for this opportunity. My background is, uh, I was born and raised in Eritrea, East Africa. I came to the United States as a refugee in 1983, so I've been here for a long time. But, um, back home when I was back home in Africa, in East Africa, I did not have an opportunity to finish high school. So, my goal, my aspiration was to at least finish high school. So, once I got the opportunity to go to school here, I tried to finish high school, but I was adult, so they say, “You can't even be here in the high school.” So, they kicked me out, but they told me, I can finish high school, uh, through something called the GED (General Educational Development test)? Something like that. And so, I did that. And then, um, I moved to San Marcos in (19)85, where California was cheaper than where I initially landed in the United States, which was South Dakota. A big difference. And so, I took advantage of the opportunity at-- enrolling at Palomar College. Uh, I did two years at Palomar College. Then I got interested more and more in school. By the time I finished Palomar College, Cal State San Marcos was coming. It was a great opportunity and I couldn't resist that. I had plans to go beyond the two-years degree because I missed four years of high school. So at least four years of high school, equivalent to me was continuously going to a four-year college. And so San Marcos came in, so I became one of the first Cal State San Marcos students in 1990. That brought a lot of opportunity actually for me as a new university, uh, starting from scratch. For me not having any other experience coming from another country and not knowing a whole lot about college, I was involving myself at Cal State San Marcos because every time they need somebody, volunteer, student assistance, do this and that. I was just trying to be as involved as I can, just, and as a result of that, after graduating 1992, among the first 1992 graduates, I was, then I got hired to, as a student, I was involved with student organizations, with Associated Students (Incorporated, i.e. student governance) and staff. So, my involvement led to a permanent position here on campus. And that first job and things like that was in the Dean of Students Office. And then by 1993, in the beginning, we were assigned a department to start a new department called Student Activities and Alumni Services. That is the root cause of the Student Life and Leadership, the Student and Residential Life (campus departments). I've been part of that since, again, I can say even though as a student, I started in 1990, I was also an employee or student assistant with the campus. So I have seen the growth of the campus from day one as a result of that-- Cross-Cultural Center, I know we'll get back to it, but that is as a result of growing departments and services to a growing population. So that's what (it) looks like a little bit on my background about who I am, as it relates to Cal State San Marcos. Stanley: And you were saying you were part of the first graduate, one of the first graduating classes of CSUSM. Could you maybe describe what the university was like in its early days? Berhane: Well, I don't know if you, if you wanna call it the university. We were taking all our classes at the, well, we used to, still refer to it, Cal State Jerome's. It was office buildings by, near the Jerome’s (furniture store) building. But luckily, SDSU (San Diego State University) had an extended classes in those areas. So, Cal Sate San Marcos didn't start it from the beginning. So there was some kind of structure as far as classrooms and things like that at Cal State Jerome's. So, all of my two years’ classes were taken there. But we graduated from the, uh, Craven Circle. We had our first graduation right there. We used the stairs, um, as a, as chairs for the guests, but we had chairs for the graduates, I was one of those. It was (a) very tight-knit community. We knew each other, the students knew each other. The faculty, staff, administrators knew each other by name, by everything, and all kinds of activities, including playing soccer with some faculty members at the Bradley Park. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Like, you know, if you were with the Dean of students, uh, you just called them by name. you as President Stacy, you were President Stacy, he’s Bill Stacy's office. Right. Because everything was just community. We knew each other. It was a community. The faculty, on the other hand, had a task to make sure that they're building a compatible, very viable university as a new university. So there was some challenge- they tried to challenge us, the students, but we were all re-entry, returners, transfers, no freshmen at the time. So, we met the challenge and exceeded the challenge. Within one year, we started Associated Students (student governance). Okay? We, I mean, a lot of things, because we were all mature returners and all of that. We met all the challenges and pa- and way beyond. So as a student, I just felt like I was so grateful for all of that opportunity. And so, my experience as a student here was great. Stanley: That's great. I love that all that does, the community and faculty knowing each other, stuff like that. Anyway, moving on to the Cross-Cultural Center, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Berhane: Okay. So this was, um, like, you know 10 years or later that the Cross-Cultural Center was implemented and, and whatnot. Uh, so the department, that the Cross-Cultural Center was under was named Student and Residential Life. We became Student and Residential Life. Just (to) give you a little bit of background, why residential life and student activities? Um, in the early, 2000s, the, the Division of Student Affairs, had a reorganization of certain departments on campus. Our department, the student, the Center for Student Involvement, which dealt with student organization, recognition leadership programs, and overseeing ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), ASI elections- was just called Center for Student Involvement. It initially was Student Activities and Alumni Services. Alumni Services split when it became, when it remained Student Activities only, we called it Center for Student Involvement, CSI. That then, like I say, as a result of the division's effort to try to reorganize the division in different departments, they brought the Residential Life and the Student Activities together. Once they brought us together, we decided to find a new name for these two departments coming together. So eventually we came up with Student and Residential Life, SRL. And so, while we were functioning on as a, an SRL, Cross-Cultural Center was added again, I mean, to that department. So we used to call it “C3.” We used to call it Multicultural Programs. I mean, C3 was the most popular name for Cross-Cultural Center. C3. And because the department, the SRL and the office that was assigned for Cross-Cultural Center were together, you just step outside, pass the bathroom, you go to the Cross-Cultural Center. It was just, again, even though we knew we were all part of one department overall, SRL. But having that we have to step outside and go and sit there and they started it with couches, not just chairs. It was just comfortable to go there and engage with the students who were there. Stanley: Do you, uh, remember any sort of activities or programs that the early Cross-Cultural program were, making happen? Berhane: I don't recall all the different, I know there is a, a big event that is, I don't know what it's called now that you do every year, but the, it was more for me, my memory in the fourth floor on Craven Hall (Administrative Building), on the fourth floor. Uh, when we were there initially it was more, okay, here is a program, a space for students to come and engage with each other and sit and relax and have a place to go to. Uh, but it has been a long time. So, I can't say I remember doing this and that with them. But I know there is something as a result of that, whatever started earlier, now there is an annual program and event that Cross-Cultural Center (inaudible). Stanley: So, um, in what ways would you say the Cross-Cultural Center has impacted CSUSM? Berhane: Well, I don't know if it is an impact to CSUSM, but I know Cal State San Marcos from the beginning has been saying diversity, the value of diversity has always been on the mission statement from day one. So the university to show that they are, you know, that being the first center for Multicultural Programs, you know, this is way before there was Black Student Center, Latino Center (Latin /x Center), Native American Center (California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center), and all of that. To say, let's start with something to at least say, call it a center for cross-cultural, you know, multicultural programs. To me, it was an indication, even though it was after many, many years of hearing the word diversity as part of our mission, serving a diverse community, all of that, to start with something like that, I think it was, a great initiative, it was. And look what happened after that. Okay, so there's Multicultural Programs. What do we do? What is next? What is next? And I think it's a great start. It helped the university start with something successful. Completion of that (Cross-Cultural Center) led to different centers, as you can see where we are right now. I think that's how I look at it, because like I say, I've been hearing the word diverse community, diversity, divers(ity), you know, our mission is to serve our population, diverse population and all of that. So I think it was a good start. So I would say it was a good experience for the university to start with something like that, as opposed to specifically, you know, as one of the different centers that we have right now. Stanley: Yeah. And you say you keep hearing the word diversity, but, would you say that the Cross-Cultural Center actually did have an impact on creating a more inclusive campus on, at CSUSM? Berhane: Well, like everything else, you know, if something’s to... to have impact or something’s to be popular or to be something, it has to be known to more people. Even though, with us through orientations, or everything else, as a campus, again it was more of a, campus with no housing on-campus, everybody was more, you live somewhere else, you come to classes and you will leave. So in the beginning, to be honest, there was not a whole lot of people using it (The Cross-Cultural Center). Uh, only a small group of people would use it. So if you’re there more often, you bring your friends. If I’m there more often, I’ll bring maybe more of my friends. But to the campus as a whole, uh, it was symbolic to have that, but I'm not sure to what, how much that impacted more student population at, you know, at that time. Stanley: Um-hmm. What is the, what's a favorite memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center, um, and how did it maybe affect you personally or professionally? Berhane: Um, I think I mentioned this before, when we talked (before the interview). It's more, um, you know, I work in the office. I’m with the students a lot. You know, many times I'm doing leadership programs, meeting with other students or with other staff members and things like that. So, to me, the Cross-Cultural Center was a place to go and do nothing but just relax. Because it was couches in there and then you're not there seriously to engage in a very, you know, other than just being there to have fun with people and just chat how students are doing. And so to me, it was a place to go, and whether it's through the Associate Directors that are working there, or whether it's through the students who are sitting there, it was a place where you can be free to chat with people and not really be doing work at that time. Uh, so that was how I looked at the center, in my memories, like saying, the couches are always in my head (laughs). Stanley: Um, looks like we have enough time for these questions. Um, since the Cross-Cultural Center has a lot to do with diversity, inclusiveness, and like being more (inaudible), I noticed when I was researching you that you've had a lot of trouble with people knowing where Eritrea is, and you're telling people, I do remember reading a newspaper article from, I think it was 1990, where you say, “Where is Eritrea? People keep asking me,” and I just wanted to say, do you still feel frustration, towards those who do not know where Eritrea is on the map? And do you still find yourself explaining where it is on a regular basis? Berhane: Well, in the beginning, before I knew how much students actually had a chance to learn about history or geography, it was, “Why don't they know,” you know? “They go to school.” We, when we were in elementary school, we knew all the different countries in the world and who the president was, what the capital city is, and then in the case of African countries when they became independent and things like that. Like it’s initiated in, I mean, like I said earlier, Eritrea when I left was at war for independence. So but, it was not covered in the mainstream media as a country fighting for independence. So when I came here, at least I had expected some people to know, because we had Americans stationed in Eritrea, you know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies. So some people should know where Eritrea is. So, for me to say it is near Sudan, it’s by the Red Sea, it’s near Ethiopia. And so in the beginning I was seriously educating people, but later on it became like, funny to me. It is like, “Where is Eritrea?” Well, the first question always is, “What's your name?” “I'm Gezai.” “Where are you from?” “I'm from Eritrea.” “Where is that?” (Stanley laughs) And then it became like, okay, I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time educating you because you have no clue. So I'll say it's, uh, a little farther than, uh, L.A. just by Santa Barbara. Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. (laughs) No, you wouldn't have heard of that, but I'm sure you heard of Santa Barbara. So the easiest answer for me is, yeah, just go look at it, (laughs), and there was no Google where, you know, we got the search and things like that. So it became funny afterwards because then it's like, it's just a waste of time too. And then if you say, I'm from Africa. Oh, but I've never heard of Eritrea. Well, that's too bad you never heard of Eritrea but that's where I came from. So, I think I transitioned from taking it seriously to maybe blaming a little bit more the educational system that we are not educating people even, you know, at the bachelor's level in the history class or geography. There was a, um, a map that was given, and we have countries identified here so it says, identify where these countries are, you know, on the map. People don't even know the United States, the States where they're supposed to be located! So then I realized, you know, it's not their fault. They just didn't have enough education about different countries, let alone, I mean about their country let alone about other people's countries. So I don't blame people. I don't get frustrated anymore. I'm like, “This is funny.” Depending on how I am interacting with the person, I can either say I'm in Africa or I can just say I'm near Santa Barbara, and that will take care of the business (both laugh). Stanley: Well, love that. It's (inaudible), just in one ear, out the other. Oh, that's cool- Berhane: That's good. Yeah. Stanley: Um, going back to the Cross-Cultural Center, you said that you would spend a lot of time just having fun in there. Could you recall a time with a specific person or a memory inside the Cross-Cultural Center that you remember fondly? Berhane: I think it was more with the second associate director or the first associate directors, and not necessarily with the students, because the names of the students, again, twenty years later, I'm getting too old to remember all of that, even though I can see their faces. It's harder to recall their names right now. But I think it's more the interaction with, um, unscheduled interaction with whether it’s with the associate director, or students who are regular. We used to call it regular students, but to be specifically telling you about individual students, it would be very hard for me. And I'll be lying to you and I don't wanna do that. Stanley: Okay. Well, uh, in what ways, uh, if any, did your involvement with the Cross Culture Center help you expand or develop as a person? And how has that impacted your career or personal life? Berhane: I mean, (laughs), as I said, as an involved person on campus, my professional and personal life as it grows, that I have gained as being part of this campus, it's enormous. It's countless, to tell you the truth, I grew up here. So Cal State San Marcos is home for me. I don't think there's a lot of other people who have started here and remained here for thirty years. Okay? I just retired in 2020-- at the end of 2021, which is thirty years later, since the university started. So the impact that grows personal and professional for me, I can't specifically try to address as a Cross-Cultural Center is, but I think my interaction with people who work at the Cross-Cultural Center, students who came to the Cross-Cultural Center, and being part of student activities. The leadership programs that this department has been planning and going, you know, whether it's going there, whether it is supporting the, uh, initial paperwork and whatnot, working with that group in general is part of my personal and professional growth. So I can't really say specifically and directly this and that. For me, it's more a, uh, the total sum of my overall experience, not just Cross-Cultural Center. Student Activities, Associated Students, the Dean of Students, the whole entire division. And in, and faculty too, as you indicated earlier. You know, if I have interactions with faculty, because we had to work with faculty members because they were supposed to be the advisor of student activity, I mean, student organization advisors, we had to work with faculty as well in doing some kind of orientation about their role and leadership programs, and how to help the student leaders and stuff. So for me, my primary function was in student activities, working with student leaders, student clubs, and organizations. So, the Cross-Cultural Center is, has been, was part of, part and parcel of Student Activities, but my main function wasn't directly that. So. But like I say, as within one department, we have orientation programs, for example. We had Greek Life, we had (to) oversee ASI (Associated Students, Inc.). All of those combined are the result of who I am, as opposed to try to, you know, narrowly say, yeah, this is how, and what the Cross-Cultural Center has left me as an impact. I don't wanna commit to that. Stanley: Let's go broader then. Berhane: Okay Stanley: Um, as a student activities director, were there any activities that you organized that you were particularly connected to or the, uh, moment on campus where you felt that you were promoting inclusiveness and diversity? Berhane: Well, I mean, a lot of the programs that we used to do from Student Activities is more... Okay, so if I notice that certain student groups that are not active, that are not really engaged, and what we used to do is go into orientations from the beginning to say, “You gotta remain active on campus.” This is, look at me, I never dreamed of working on campus or the university, ever whatsoever. You go to school, to college and you graduate, and you go look for a job somewhere else, but I'm here. So, students, you need to get engaged, you need to get involved. So, me encouraging all the new students that were coming in, or if they were here, and if I get to interact, I like to walk around and see if people are out there who would like to say hello, if they're not engaged, if they're not the student organizations. And within student organizations, if they're not taking leadership roles and things like that, I encourage people at whatever level they are. And so that's, you know, for me, I was fond of encouraging students to take leadership roles, to stay engaged, to work on campus, even at least as a student activity, and I mean as student assistants. And so for me it's more the day-to-day interactions with students, not just in generally, I mean. So, every year we know student organizations have to renew their contract every year. We have to do some leadership program trainings every year. And that's where you meet all the student leaders, and that's how you continue to engage with them and continue to advise them and continue to help them grow. And so for me, it's more, it's really hard to say yes, thirty years of experience is like to narrow it into one event or into one program. I've been part of student, I mean, ASI for example, Associated Students, (Inc.), we started with paper ballots, you know, like check-in the paper ballots. Then we moved to scantrons where you can do scantron, you (Stanley) probably don't remember. And then we had to go move up to online voting and things like that. So, you have to go through so much growth. And so, when you’re part of a lot of new engagements, new initiatives, it’s like you forget it because once you move to the next level, you just forget about that and now you're at next level. So for me, uh, like I say, it's thirty years of engaging with the students, faculty and staff, with administrators. It was a lot of the, a lot of the things that we see right now, whether it is programs through Cross-Cultural Center, or through what used to be SLL, Student Live and Leadership, now it's SLIC (both laugh), Student Leadership and Involvement (Center), something like that. SLIC, they just changed it. Um, a lot of the programs, a lot of orientation. I also worked with housing. So, housing was another area where, where you are engaged with students coming in with family, with their parents, you were engaged and things like that. And so, for me, it's just a, I was not like static in one department or in one function doing just one specific thing. I have been engaged within a lot of different things on campus. So that to me is, it makes it harder for me. It's like, as a result of me doing what specific area, this is where I am, or this is where I was, this is where I got. Is it just so much that I can say I've been a part of? And as a result, I grew up with it (laughs) and I even got retired, bro. (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. You say, that you really don't know, like what, I couldn't really go into specifics. Um, could I ask you to tell me just, just any story that you might have, of helping a student or being involved in the, on campus or anything like that? Berhane: Um, so for example, on Orientation Team. Stanley: Mm-hmm. Berhane: Orientation Team is, there's a training every year. We go camping. You go camping to Ramona or to Alpine (California) or things like that. My most memorable memories with the students is when you are going to those kinds of three, four-day trainings and camping and you are doing all kinds of crazy things in there. And so for me, my most memorable uh, fun memories are related to the orientation team going places and being trained. Things on campus, we've done so much. But when you get outta here and do other activities off campus, those were memorable. Stanley: Um, let's see here. Um, could you tell me about your involvement with Greek Life? Berhan: (laughs) Greek Life? Hmm. So when we initially started the department Student Activities in 1993, Greek life was not recognized as Greek Life. Greek life was more, you can initiate, but we are not gonna recognize you as a Greek Life organization because first of all, you have to go and communicate with the National Greek (Life) Association (National Panhellenic Conference). The campus was not a grown-up campus. And so my engagement with Greek life was more before they became Greek Life, before they became recognized, um, Greek organizations. It was more you give, they give them (pseudonyms) and we know where they're heading, but they recognized as student organizations where it's not supposed to discriminate membership based on gender and whatnot. Because as you know, Greek organizations are based on gender, kind of like the sororities, fraternities and things like that. So their names were not as Greek names. It was more a pseudo-other names. We know where they're heading, that's where they're trying and planning. But my, so in the early days when I was part of, you know, when they were part of that student organization, they were just student organizations. That's my experience with them. Once we recognized them, we started recognizing them, then the process of working with them moved to a new Greek Life advisor. And I remained with the rest of the other student organizations. So Greek Life before they became Greek Life, yes, I know who they were. I worked with them as their advisor. But once we have started to recognize them fully, then a Greek Life advisor has to come. A Greek Life advisor was hired. That's how we kind of-- we are in the same department, but me doing student organizations, these other person, Greek life leadership programs, all of us. And then orientation, and then Cross-Cultural Center, you know, all coming from within this department. Stanley: Um, you mentioned that, uh, they had to use pseudonyms instead of real Greek names. I was wondering if you could remember any of the names. Berhane: I can't. I can't. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to go back to the, the good old days. Um, we had, you know, documents. I don't have any of the documents, but if you wanna go search what the earlier, earlier student organizations... You kind of, you can find it in the (19)93, 94, 95 years, what student organizations were. I think some of that list might be still in student activities or SLIC or ASI might have that list as well. But it was, like I say, it is very hard for me to remember all of those. But it was three or four different student organizations. Stanley: Well, thank you for the reference at least. Um, you talked about, about how you were involved with student residential life, um, in the same vein as being working earlier in CSUSM. How was residential, residential life in CSUSM earlier on? Berhane : So before the, uh, UVA (University Village Apartments), the university village was built, the campus had leased apartments in what we call it, uh, the islands apartments. The Islands Apartments. Out of many of the apartments, the university leased several buildings and rooms. So we used to house students. And so even though I was working still in Student Activities, the Director of Student Activities was also overseeing the, uh, of campus housing. We called it the off-campus housing initiative. And so I was, I happened to be the other person also to help with that. So it was, again, off campus, the Islands Apartments. It's off of Wood, you know, in San Marcos, if you are familiar with San Marcos, uh, Twin Oaks (Road) going east, there is the golf course. Right across the golf course. There's Woodward. Woodward is a street. So I think they changed the name, but it used to be called the Islands Apartment. And so even though we were not, nobody was resident in there from us, the staff members, we were there to support students. It was, I was part of that. And that's pretty much so. And then once we build the UVA, the University Village, then everybody new has to take over. Uh, even though to this day, the Dean of Students where I worked overseas housing, all housing. So the directors of the on-campus housing, I think they also reported to the Dean of Students. And so, me remaining in, within the Dean of Students, under the Dean of Students kind of gave me an opportunity to really engage in work or move in, move out and things like that. But my experience with housing started with off-campus housing, and I continued to also do a list of off-campus housing. Um, so it still is in existence, I think. Stanley: Sorry, I keep, I keep asking you, but, uh, do you have any sort of (Berhane laughs) say sort of story or memorable moment in those residential, like when you were helping people move in or move out or stuff like that? Berhane: Yeah, it's just, so maybe a fun memories is where, you know, I live very close to them. And so if I take my kids with me and have my kids in there and, uh, see where, you know, this is for students, college students, I think for me it's more like my whole family was involved in things like that wherever I go, whether it's an event here. But fun memories with off campus housing, I mean, there was a lot of stuff people throw away and things like that. It’s like, you know, there's a lot. And for me, with my background from Africa. Like, there's a lot of people who could use all of those things. Things that are being thrown away. And it just-- things that I can think as like memories, okay, they're going throw the mattress to the trash, I mean, throwing it, oh wow, (laughs), somebody could have used that one. Uh, things like that. But I mean, in engaging specifically with individual students to say, I know so and so, so and so, is not there yet. It's not there anymore. (laughs) It's not there. Like the fact that I can remember the Islands Apartment because it was the initial apartments. We had students who lived there, you know, the residents of, uh, you know, a subleased apartment, but we were administering it and things like that. I think those things, I can see the apartments and the people, some people, but not a, uh, not a whole lot of memory of individuals. Stanley: Um, how, how has seeing CSUSM grow over the years impacted you, and your life around the CSUSM community? Berhane: Ahh. You know, I indicated earlier, I came to San Marcos when San Marcos was really a, uh, a mobile home community, a retirement community. When there was no stop signs or four, you know, four-way stops. It was just, you go from one place to another with no stop and five minutes was enough to get you from where you are to where you need to go, where you want to go. The fact that for thirty some years right now, I've seen the growth of San Marcos in general as a community, to where we are right now. It's very hard for me to believe, to tell you the truth. It's just very hard for me to believe. So, the impact is from this small community, retirement community, a neat community to the kind of growth that you see-- even when we moved here (from CSU Jerome’s campus) in 1992, we only had, what, four buildings? This building (Kellogg Library), Commons, Academical Hall, Science Hall. That was it. That was it. It was just fine. It was nice. Now to see where we are, even though in, you know, in (inaudible) there was, uh, something called, “in twenty-five years Cal State San Marcos is supposed to have grown to have up to 25,000 students.” Well, for different reasons that didn't happen. Economy and whatnot and whatnot. But for me, I like the fact that it has grown. So my kids can go to the schools where they went to. Richland (Elementary School), Woodland (Park Middle School), Mission Hills (High School). But those things, well Mission (High School) was not there. I mean, all the growth for me to be able, instead of going (to) San Diego State to be able to finish in San Marcos, I had benefited a lot to be part of it. I mean, extra lucky to be working in here instead of San Diego or moving to other kinds of states or other cities. San Marcos in general, as a community, as a university, gave me life. Life. Do you know, life? Life. It gave me life. So for me, it's beyond, I'm beyond grateful for the impact that Cal State San Marcos. The fact that Cal State San Marcos, when it came time, the place, were everything, I raised three kids in San Marcos who all three of 'em went to like, oh, I told you Richland, Woodland, and then went to college. None of them came here (CSUSM) ‘cause Daddy works here (laughs). So they had to go to different states. But, um, but they knew where, what my expectations of them, they knew they were part of, I was part of this. And they knew they were not just going to finish high school and not go to college. So they all did at least their four, the four-year degree. So for me, it is life. My experience, the people that I come to know here at the university, the faculty, staff, students, it gave me life. I'm telling you, I don't know where I would've been if it wasn’t for Cal State San Marcos. And the whole general San Marcos, the whole area. So I'm very, very grateful. Stanley: That's, that's incredible. Um, yeah, it's just, it's almost like a, it's become like a campus town at this point now. Berhane: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I mean, when I was a student, there was no parking fees or anything (laughs). Now I have (to) pay, like an hour. You pay my job, just leave me (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. There's a train that runs along now. Berhane: That's a different story (laughs). That's a different story, man. Stanley: Getting back, uh, as we're winding down, um, I know that you had, you were involved with the Black Student Union and Black Student Center. How would would you say that pro, those programs and that, what's the word, uh, correlates or stacks up against the Cross-Cultural Center? I'd say, so. Berhane: Um, I think what, you know, during time, with time you have to identify all the different things that you need, who needs what. And so, I don't know, I don't wanna compare or compete or anything as, you know, not just a Black Student Center, not just a Latino Center, not just a Women's Center or a Native American Center. It's more they all have their own individual roles to play in the, in, in, you know, in this community. So, Black Student Center was a necessary department, was a necessary service, a necessary center to have on campus. If we are going to have specific groups feeling welcomed and that they have a space on campus. With Multicultural Programs its good, when multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-gender, or whatever you call it, in name. It-- but they're able to come and use that as a center for that. But I think people feel comfortable where they feel they belong to. Just like the student organizations. When I was a student, when I see a sociology club, accounting club, Latino club, well, I wanted to have the Black Student Club. So I was part of a Black student club. Uh, we were calling it African American or African Student Organization, African, all kinds of stuff, trying to say we have something that belongs to us. So for me, it's not like in comparison to other centers, it was necessary to have a center for the Black students to feel comfortable enough to go there. And so for us, again, as advocates for services to different interests of different student groups, to have that implemented and to see that while I was a student, I while I was an employee here, was a great thing. I was always involved like I say from day one, whether since starting a student organization, once I became a staff (employee designation), we have the Black Faculty and Staff Association. I've been part of that (inaudible) since day one. When we graduated in 1992, I became one of the board members with the Alumni Association, starting Alumni Association I can say I've been part of a lot of starting things because I think the need, the need is there and if I'm able to help on engage(ment), why not? So I as, as someone who was active as a student, once I graduated, I was also pulled to help start the Alumni Association. And so I think, you know, in trying to answer your question, it's not really in competition or one over the other or against the other. It's more providing services to the different populations, different groups with different interests that we have on campus. Stanley: Uh, yeah, perhaps I worded that a little wrong. You touched on this before, but what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center play as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces like you named before? Berhane: I think it requires an understanding of what its mission is, an understanding. So if I'm coming as a student, new student coming to campus, I'm a Black student. I'm not going to ask for multicultural programs where, you know, “Where is a multicultural program?” I'm gonna ask, where is a Black Student Center? If I'm going to join a student organization, I'm either going to ask for something related to my major or something related to my identity. And so, multicultural, Cross-Cultural Center, the definition of it needs to be clear to people from day one at orientation. Okay? And so, yes, it does have a mission. Yes, it does have a purpose to be here on campus to serve, but is it serving the group of people who don't have a center already? Or is it bringing all the centers together? And so, uh, reexamination of the whole purpose of Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center might be necessary at some point to say, “Who am I serving?” Okay? Because you have Latino Center here, Women's Center, gender, you know, gender and Black Student Center, there may be a need to really qualify, “Why should I go there?” Even though I know I'm familiar with it. But if I am a newcomer, what am I gonna look for? It does serve a population that doesn't, that doesn't fit any of the other ones (other centers). But what extent do they understand it? To what extent are they familiar and aware of this service and this center? Stanley: I guess the same thing I ask as a longtime CSUSM (staff and administrative) member and student of CSUSM, what advice would you give the Cross-Cultural Center to be more inclusive and, and get those people who are outside of the lines of the Latin( /x) Center, or the Black (Student) Center? Berhane: I don't know if, uh, Floyd (Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time of the interview’s recording) will need my advice. I'm sure he, he is very familiar with what he's doing and what, you know, what he sees all the different centers around him, and he works very closely with the student centers and stuff. So they don't really need my advice. But I think, you know, always doesn't hurt to go back and look at who is, who is being engaged here? Who is our population? Who is the most frequently arrival here in relation to-- So if I were to look back at who the most popular, what population used to be there... more often it is more of the Asian population. Okay. So the Asian population probably don't have any other location, but the Multicultural Programs (Cross-Cultural Center). Because we, I'm being honest, this Black Student center, Latino Center, Indian Center, there's an argument there should be a White center too. But (laughs), that's a different story. But I think the thing is, you know, a lot of, we’ve got to go back and take a look at the purpose of this center. Are we serving the population that we were formed to serve and continually revise. Take, you know, take notes of all the people who have come to you on a daily basis and see if we are missing anybody. If we are missing anybody, the best place to meet them is at orientation. When they all come in on campus with their families and you know, tell them where all the different services are, make that as a, you know, make it as an effort. I used to do recruitment too even when I was a student assistant. Students who heard me talk about “Cal State Marcos will offer you this, this, and that.” Once they come to Cal State San Marcos, if they experience the things that I told them ; Cal State San Marcos will serve you, they (the students) would remember that and say, “I'm so glad that you said that. I am glad I heard you say that.” And I can see, and really, I use that and it's helped, it has helped me. I really appreciate that. So, we need to be able to impact students from the day one, what kind of services we are providing for them and why they should come to our department, why they should come to our service, why they should come to my class, why they should do those things at the orientation, at wherever they are at the beginning. And so, identify your population, identifying all the different services you can provide, as much as you can provide. You don't expect someone, uh, search you and come to your office. They're not, they're not gonna come, unless they hear you say something, something. Stanley: So, yes. So to, to uh, summarize, make people aware of the program. Make sure that you know who you're serving and that, why they should come there. Berhane: Yes. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I mean, people need to know. A lot of people if they, if you don't know it, you don't know it, you're not going to go and search for it. You haven't heard anybody talking about it. So even though it may be available in your fingertips, this is different. Maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm more like from person to person, but for me, the only way people can come to (the services) is (if) they're aware of it. So make it aware and be clear about what services you're providing and where you are located, what your hours are, your phone number and blah blah. And have 'em (students) come. And it, again, it doesn't have to be limited to orientation or one area or this and that. Could be classrooms. It could be announcements, it could be a lot of things. But make sure that, you know, you are known on campus for providing services that all students need or specific students need. Stanley: All right. Well I really appreciate you coming. I'm gonna end the recording now. Berhane: Well, thank you. Uh, let me say thank you, uh, Seth, for this opportunity. And I say I'm grateful that you invited me and that I'm a part of this. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Berhane, Gezai. Interview March 29th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-37 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Greek life California State University San Marcos. Student Activities Refugees -- Eritrea Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-29 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gezai Berhane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Eritrea San Marcos, (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gezai Berhane Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Immigrant experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/359f5ef004ef9f5cb67d3fe184e762f6.pdf 7724afdb765683fbb93150f5ec6d7e48 PDF Text Text GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Gezai Berhane. This is for the California State University San Marcos, Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. Today is March 29th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Gezai, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'll start off with a- with some questions. To start off, could you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to become a part of the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) community? Gezai Berhane: Well, that's a good question, and thanks for this opportunity. My background is, uh, I was born and raised in Eritrea, East Africa. I came to the United States as a refugee in 1983, so I've been here for a long time. But, um, back home when I was back home in Africa, in East Africa, I did not have an opportunity to finish high school. So, my goal, my aspiration was to at least finish high school. So, once I got the opportunity to go to school here, I tried to finish high school, but I was adult, so they say, “You can't even be here in the high school.” So, they kicked me out, but they told me, I can finish high school, uh, through something called the GED (General Educational Development Test)? Something like that. And so, I did that. And then, um, I moved to San Marcos in (19)85, where California was cheaper than where I initially landed in the United States, which was South Dakota. A big difference. And so, I took advantage of the opportunity at-- enrolling at Palomar College. Uh, I did two years at Palomar College. Then I got interested more and more in school. By the time I finished Palomar College, Cal State San Marcos was coming. It was a great opportunity and I couldn't resist that. I had plans to go beyond the, two-years degree because I missed four years of high school. So at least four years of high school, equivalent to me was continuously going to a four-year college. And so San Marcos came in, so I became one of the first Cal State San Marcos students in 1990. That brought a lot of opportunity actually for me as a new university, uh, starting from scratch. For me not having any other experience coming from another country and not knowing a whole lot about college, I was involving myself at Cal State San Marcos because every time they need somebody, volunteer, student assistance, do this and that. I was just trying to be as involved as I can, just, and as a result of that, after graduating 1992, among the first 1992 graduates, I was, then I got hired to, as a student, I was involved with student organizations, with Associated Students (Incorporated, i.e. student governance) and staff. So, my involvement led to a permanent position here on campus. And that first job and things like that was in the Dean of Students Office. And then by 1993, in the beginning, we were assigned a department to start a new department called Student Activities and Alumni Services. That is the root cause of the Student Life and Leadership, the Student and Residential Life (campus departments). I've been part of that since, again, I can say even though as a student, I started in 1990, I was also an employee or student assistant with the campus. So I have seen the growth of the campus from day one as a result of that --Cross-Cultural Center, I know we'll get back to it, but that is as a result of growing departments and services to a growing population. So that's what (it) looks like a little bit on my background about who I am, as it relates to Cal State San Marcos. Stanley: And you were saying you were part of the first graduate, one of the first graduating classes of CSUSM. Could you maybe describe what the university was like in its early days? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Well, I don't know if you, if you wanna call it the university. We were taking all our classes at the, well, we used to, still refer to it, Cal State Jerome's. It was office buildings by, near the Jerome’s (furniture store) building. But luckily, SDSU (San Diego State University) had an extended classes in those areas. So, Cal Sate San Marcos didn't start it from the beginning. So there was some kind of structure as far as classrooms and things like that at Cal State Jerome's. So, all of my two years’ classes were taken there. But we graduated from the, uh, Craven Circle. We had our first graduation right there. We used the stairs, um, as a, as chairs for the guests, but we had chairs for the graduates, I was one of those. It was (a) very tight-knit community. We knew each other, the students knew each other. The faculty, staff, administrators knew each other by name, by everything, and all kinds of activities, including playing soccer with some faculty members at the Bradley Park. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Like, you know, if you were with the Dean of students, uh, you just called them by name. you as President Stacy, you were President Stacy, he’s Bill Stacy's office. Right. Because everything was just community. We knew each other. It was a community. The faculty, on the other hand, had a task to make sure that they're building a compatible, very, viable university as a new university. So there was some challenge- they tried to challenge us, the students, but we were all re-entry, returners, transfers, no freshmen at the time. So, we met the challenge and exceeded the challenge. Within one year, we started Associated Students (student governance). Okay? We, I mean, a lot of things, because we were all mature returners and all of that. We met all the challenges and pa- and way beyond. So as a student, I just felt like I was so grateful for all of that opportunity. And so, my experience as a student here was great. Stanley: That's great. I love that all that does, the community and faculty knowing each other, stuff like that. Anyway, moving on to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Berhane: Okay. So this was, um, like, you know 10 years or later that the Cross-Cultural Center was implemented and, and whatnot. Uh, so the department, that the Cross-Cultural Center was under was named Student and Residential Life. We became Student and Residential Life. Just (to) give you a little bit of background, why residential life and student activities? Um, in the early, 2000s, the, the Division of Student Affairs, had a reorganization of certain departments on campus. Our department, the student, the Center for Student Involvement, which dealt with student organization, recognition leadership programs, and overseeing ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), ASI elections- was just called Center for Student Involvement. It initially was Student Activities and Alumni Services. Alumni Services split when it became, when it remained Student Activities only, we called it Center for Student Involvement, CSI. That then, like I say, as a result of the division's effort to try to reorganize the division in different departments, they brought the Residential Life and the Student Activities together. Once they brought us together, we decided to find a new name for these two departments coming together. So eventually we came up with Student and Residential Life, SRL. And so, while we were functioning on as a, an SRL, Cross-Cultural Center was added again, I mean, to that department. So we used to call it “C3.” We used to call it Multicultural Programs. I mean, C3 was the most popular name for Cross-Cultural Center. C3. And because the department, the SRL and the office that was assigned for Cross-Cultural Center were together, you just step outside, pass the bathroom, you go to the Cross-Cultural Center. It was just, again, even though we knew we were all part of one department overall, SRL. But having that we have Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 to step outside and go and sit there and they started it with couches, not just chairs. It was just comfortable to go there and engage with the students who were there. Stanley: Do you, uh, remember any sort of activities or programs that the early Cross-Cultural program were, making happen? Berhane: I don't recall all the different, I know there is a, a big event that is, I don't know what it's called now that you do every year, but the, it was more for me, my memory in the fourth floor on Craven Hall (Administrative Building), on the fourth floor. Uh, when we were there initially it was more, okay, here is a program, a space for students to come and engage with each other and sit and relax and have a place to go to. Uh, but it has been a long time. So, I can't say I remember doing this and that with them. But I know there is something as a result of that, whatever started earlier, now there is an annual program and event that Cross-Cultural Center (inaudible). Stanley: So, um, in what ways would you say the Cross-Cultural Center has impacted CSUSM? Berhane: Well, I don't know if it is an impact to CSUSM, but I know Cal State San Marcos from the beginning has been saying diversity, the value of diversity has always been on the mission statement from day one. So the university to show that they are, you know, that being the first center for Multicultural Programs, you know, this is way before there was Black Student Center, Latino Center (Latin@/x Center), Native American Center (California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center), and all of that. To say, let's start with something to at least say, call it a center for cross-cultural, you know, multicultural programs. To me, it was an indication, even though it was after many, many years of hearing the word diversity as part of our mission, serving a diverse community, all of that, to start with something like that, I think it was, a great initiative, it was. And look what happened after that. Okay, so there's Multicultural Programs. What do we do? What is next? What is next? And I think it's a great start. It helped the university start with something successful. Completion of that (Cross-Cultural Center) led to different centers, as you can see where we are right now. I think that's how I look at it, because like I say, I've been hearing the word diverse community, diversity, divers(ity), you know, our mission is to serve our population, diverse population and all of that. So I think it was a good start. So I would say it was a good experience for the university to start with something like that, as opposed to specifically, you know, as one of the different centers that we have right now. Stanley: Yeah. And you say you keep hearing the word diversity, but, would you say that the CrossCultural Center actually did have an impact on creating a more inclusive campus on, at CSUSM? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Well, like everything else, you know, if something’s to... to have impact or something’s to be popular or to be something, it has to be known to more people. Even though, with us through orientations, or everything else, as a campus, again it was more of a, campus with no housing oncampus, everybody was more, you live somewhere else, you come to classes and you will leave. So in the beginning, to be honest, there was not a whole lot of people using it (The Cross-Cultural Center). Uh, only a small group of people would use it. So if you’re there more often, you bring your friends. If I’m there more often, I’ll bring maybe more of my friends. But to the campus as a whole, uh, it was symbolic to have that, but I'm not sure to what, how much that impacted more student population at, you know, at that time. Stanley: Um-hmm. What is the, what's a favorite memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center, um, and how did it maybe affect you personally or professionally? Berhane: Um, I think I mentioned this before, when we talked (before the interview). It's more, um, you know, I work in the office. I’m with the students a lot. You know, many times I'm doing leadership programs, meeting with other students or with other staff members and things like that. So, to me, the Cross-Cultural Center was a place to go and do nothing but just relax. Because it was couches in there and then you're not there seriously to engage in a very, you know, other than just being there to have fun with people and just chat how students are doing. And so to me, it was a place to go, and whether it's through the Associate Directors that are working there, or whether it's through the students who are sitting there, it was a place where you can be free to chat with people and not really be doing work at that time. Uh, so that was how I looked at the center, in my memories, like saying, the couches are always in my head. (laughs). Stanley: Um, looks like we have enough time for these questions. Um, since the Cross-Cultural Center has a lot to do with diversity, inclusiveness, and like being more (inaudible), I noticed when I was researching you that you've had a lot of trouble with people knowing where Eritrea is, and you're telling people, I do remember reading a newspaper article from, I think it was 1990, where you say, “Where is Eritrea? People keep asking me,” and I just wanted to say, do you still feel frustration, towards those who do not know where Eritrea is on the map? And do you still find yourself explaining where it is on a regular basis? Berhane: Well, in the beginning, before I knew how much students actually had a chance to learn about history or geography, it was, “Why don't they know,” you know? “They go to school.” We, when we were in elementary school, we knew all the different countries in the world and who the president was, what the capital city is, and then in the case of African countries when they became independent and things like that. Like it’s initiated in, I mean, like I said earlier, Eritrea when I left was at war for independence. So but, it was not covered in the mainstream media as a country fighting for independence. So when I came here, at least I had expected some people to know, because we had Americans stationed in Eritrea, you know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies. So some people should know Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 where Eritrea is. So, for me to say it is near Sudan, it’s by the Red Sea, it’s near Ethiopia. And so in the beginning I was seriously educating people, but later on it became like, funny to me. It is like, “Where is Eritrea?” Well, the first question always is, “What's your name?” “I'm Gezai.” “Where are you from?” “I'm from Eritrea.” “Where is that?” (Stanley laughs) And then it became like, okay, I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time educating you because you have no clue. So I'll say it's, uh, a little farther than, uh, L.A. just by Santa Barbara. Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. (laughs) No, you wouldn't have heard of that, but I'm sure you heard of Santa Barbara. So the easiest answer for me is, yeah, just go look at it, (laughs), and there was no Google where, you know, we got the search and things like that. So it became funny afterwards because then it's like, it's just a waste of time too. And then if you say, I'm from Africa. Oh, but I've never heard of Eritrea. Well, that's too bad you never heard of Eritrea but that's where I came from. So , I think I transitioned from taking it seriously to maybe blaming a little bit more the educational system that we are not educating people even, you know, at the bachelor's level in the history class or geography. There was a, um, a map that was given, and we have countries identified here so it says, identify where these countries are, you know, on the map. People don't even know the United States, the States where they're supposed to be located! So then I realized, you know, it's not their fault. They just didn't have enough education about different countries, let alone, I mean about their country let alone about other people's countries. So I don't blame people. I don't get frustrated anymore. I'm like, “This is funny.” Depending on how I am interacting with the person, I can either say I'm in Africa or I can just say I'm near Santa Barbara, and that will take care of the business (both laugh). Stanley: Well, love that. It's (inaudible), just in one ear, out the other. Oh, that's cool- Berhane: That's good. Yeah. Stanley: Um, going back to the Cross-Cultural Center, you said that you would spend a lot of time just having fun in there. Could you recall a time with a specific person or a memory inside the Cross-Cultural Center that you remember fondly? Berhane: I think it was more with the second associate director or the first associate directors, and not necessarily with the students, because the names of the students, again, twenty years later, I'm getting too old to remember all of that, even though I can see their faces. It's harder to recall their names right now. But I think it's more the interaction with, um, unscheduled interaction with whether it’s with the associate director, or students who are regular. We used to call it regular students, but to be specifically telling you about individual students, it would be very hard for me. And I'll be lying to you and I don't wanna do that. Stanley: Okay. Well, uh, in what ways, uh, if any, did your involvement with the Cross Culture Center help you expand or develop as a person? And how has that impacted your career or personal life? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: I mean, (laughs), as I said, as an involved person on campus, my professional and personal life as it grows, that I have gained as being part of this campus, it's enormous. It's countless, to tell you the truth, I grew up here. So Cal State San Marcos is home for me. I don't think there's a lot of other people who have started here and remained here for thirty years. Okay? I just retired in 2020-- at the end of 2021, which is thirty years later, since the university started. So the impact that grows personal and professional for me, I can't specifically try to address as a Cross-Cultural Center is, but I think my interaction with people who work at the Cross-Cultural Center, students who came to the Cross-Cultural Center, and being part of student activities. The leadership programs that this department has been planning and going, you know, whether it's going there, whether it is supporting the, uh, initial paperwork and whatnot, working with that group in general is part of my personal and professional growth. So I can't really say specifically and directly this and that. For me, it's more a, uh, the total sum of my overall experience, not just Cross-Cultural Center. Student Activities, Associated Students, the Dean of Students, the whole entire division. And in, and faculty too, as you indicated earlier. You know, if I have interactions with faculty, because we had to work with faculty members because they were supposed to be the advisor of student activity, I mean, student organization advisors, we had to work with faculty as well in doing some kind of orientation about their role and leadership programs, and how to help the student leaders and stuff. So for me, my primary function was in student activities, working with student leaders, student clubs, and organizations. So, the Cross-Cultural Center is, has been, was part of, part and parcel of Student Activities, but my main function wasn't directly that. So. But like I say, as within one department, we have orientation programs, for example. We had Greek Life, we had (to) oversee ASI (Associated Students, Inc.). All of those combined are the result of who I am, as opposed to try to, you know, narrowly say, yeah, this is how, and what the Cross-Cultural Center has left me as an impact. I don't wanna commit to that. Stanley: Let's go broader then. Berhane: Okay Stanley: Um, as a student activities director, were there any activities that you organized that you were particularly connected to or the, uh, moment on campus where you felt that you were promoting inclusiveness and diversity? Berhane: Well, I mean, a lot of the programs that we used to do from Student Activities is more... Okay, so if I notice that certain student groups that are not active, that are not really engaged, and what we used to do is go into orientations from the beginning to say, You gotta remain active on campus. This is, look at me, I never dreamed of working on campus or the university, ever whatsoever. You go to school, to college and you graduate, and you go look for a job somewhere else, but I'm here. So, students, you need to get engaged, you need to get involved. So, me encouraging all the new students that were coming in, or if they were here, and if I get to interact, I like to walk around and see if people are out there who would like to say hello, if they're not engaged, if they're not the student organizations. And Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 within student organizations, if they're not taking leadership roles and things like that, I encourage people at whatever level they are. And so that's, you know, for me, I was fond of encouraging students to take leadership roles, to stay engaged, to work on campus, even at least as a student activity, and I mean as student assistants. And so for me it's more the day-to-day interactions with students, not just in generally, I mean. So, every year we know student organizations have to renew their contract every year. We have to do some leadership program trainings every year. And that's where you meet all the student leaders, and that's how you continue to engage with them and continue to advise them and continue to help them grow. And so for me, it's more, it's really hard to say yes, thirty years of experience is like to narrow it into one event or into one program. I've been part of student, I mean, ASI for example, Associated Students, (Inc.), we started with paper ballots, you know, like check-in the paper ballots. Then we moved to scantrons where you can do scantron, you (Stanley) probably don't remember. And then we had to go move up to online voting and things like that. So, you have to go through so much growth. And so, when you’re part of a lot of new engagements, new initiatives, it’s like you forget it because once you move to the next level, you just forget about that and now you're at next level. So for me, uh, like I say, it's thirty years of engaging with the students, faculty and staff, with administrators. It was a lot of the, a lot of the things that we see right now, whether it is programs through Cross-Cultural Center, or through what used to be SLL, Student Live and Leadership, now it's SLIC (both laugh), Student Leadership and Involvement (Center), something like that. SLIC, they just changed it. Um, a lot of the programs, a lot of orientation. I also worked with housing. So, housing was another area where, where you are engaged with students coming in with family, with their parents, you were engaged and things like that. And so, for me, it's just a, I was not like static in one department or in one function doing just one specific thing. I have been engaged within a lot of different things on campus. So that to me is, it makes it harder for me. It's like, as a result of me doing what specific area, this is where I am, or this is where I was, this is where I got. Is it just so much that I can say I've been a part of? And as a result, I grew up with it (laughs) and I even got retired, bro. (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. You say, that you really don't know, like what, I couldn't really go into specifics. Um, could I ask you to tell me just, just any story that you might have, of helping a student or being involved in the, on campus or anything like that? Berhane: Um, so for example, on Orientation Team. Stanley: Mm-hmm. Berhane: Orientation Team is, there's a training every year. We go camping. You go camping to Ramona or to Alpine (California) or things like that. My most memorable memories with the students is when you are going to those kinds of three, four-day trainings and camping and you are doing all kinds of crazy things in there. And so for me, my most memorable uh, fun memories are related to the orientation team going places and being trained. Things on campus, we've done so much. But when you get outta here and do other activities off campus, those were memorable. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Stanley: Um, let's see here. Um, could you tell me about your involvement with Greek Life? Berhan: (laughs) Greek Life? Hmm. So when we initially started the department Student Activities in 1993, Greek life was not recognized as Greek Life. Greek life was more, you can initiate, but we are not gonna recognize you as a Greek Life organization because first of all, you have to go and communicate with the National Greek (Life) Association (National Panhellenic Conference). The campus was not a grown-up campus. And so my engagement with Greek life was more before they became Greek Life, before they became recognized, um, Greek organizations. It was more you give, they give them (pseudonyms) and we know where they're heading, but they recognized as student organizations where it's not supposed to discriminate membership based on gender and whatnot. Because as you know, Greek organizations are based on gender, kind of like the, sororities, fraternities and things like that. So their names were not as Greek names. It was more a pseudo other names. We know where they're heading, that's where they're trying and planning. But my, so in the early days when I was part of, you know, when they were part of that student organization, they were just student organizations. That's my experience with them. Once we recognized them, we started recognizing them, then the process of working with them moved to a new Greek Life advisor. And I remained with the rest of the other student organizations. So Greek Life before they became Greek Life, yes, I know who they were. I worked with them as their advisor. But once we have started to recognize them fully, then a Greek Life advisor has to come. A Greek Life advisor was hired. That's how we kind of-- we are in the same department, but me doing student organizations, these other person, Greek life leadership programs, all of us. And then orientation, and then Cross-Cultural Center, you know, all coming from within this department. Stanley: Um, you mentioned that, uh, they had to use pseudonyms instead of real Greek names. I was wondering if you could remember any of the names. Berhane: I can't. I can't. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to go back to the, the good old days. Um, we had, you know, documents. I don't have any of the documents, but if you wanna go search what the earlier, earlier student organizations... You kind of, you can find it in the (19)93, 94, 95 years, what student organizations were. I think some of that list might be still in student activities or SLIC or ASI might have that list as well. But it was, like I say, it is very hard for me to remember all of those. But it was three or four different student organizations. Stanley: Well, thank you for the reference at least. Um, you talked about, about how you were involved with student residential life, um, in the same vein as being working earlier in CSUSM. How was residential, residential life in CSUSM earlier on? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane : So before the, uh, UVA (University Village Apartments), the university village was built, the campus had, leased apartments in what we call it, uh, the islands apartments. The Islands Apartments. Out of many of the apartments, the university leased several buildings and rooms. So we used to house students. And so even though I was working still in Student Activities, the Director of Student Activities was also overseeing the, uh, of campus housing. We called it the off-campus housing initiative. And so I was, I happened to be the other person also to help with that. So it was, again, off campus, the Islands Apartments. It's off of Wood, you know, in San Marcos, if you are familiar with San Marcos, uh, Twin Oaks (Road) going east, there is the golf course. Right across the golf course. There's Woodward. Woodward is a street. So I think they changed the name, but it used to be called the Islands Apartment. And so even though we were not, nobody was resident in there from us, the staff members, we were there to support students. It was, I was part of that. And that's pretty much so. And then once we build the UVA, the University Village, then everybody new has to take over. Uh, even though to this day, the Dean of Students where I worked overseas housing, all housing. So the directors of the on-campus housing, I think they also reported to the Dean of Students. And so, me remaining in, within the Dean of Students, under the Dean of Students kind of gave me an opportunity to really engage in work or move in, move out and things like that. But my experience with housing started with off-campus housing, and I continued to also do a list of off-campus housing. Um, so it still is in existence, I think. Stanley: Sorry, I keep, I keep asking you, but, uh, do you have any sort of (Berhane laughs) say sort of story or memorable moment in those residential, like when you were helping people move in or move out or stuff like that? Berhane: Yeah, it's just, so maybe a fun memories is where, you know, I live very close to them. And so if I take my kids with me and have my kids in there and, uh, see where, you know, this is for students, college students, I think for me it's more like my whole family was involved in things like that wherever I go, whether it's an event here. But fun memories with off campus housing, I mean, there was a lot of stuff people throw away and things like that. It’s like, you know, there's a lot. And for me, with my background from Africa. Like, there's a lot of people who could use all of those things. Things that are being thrown away. And it just-- things that I can think as like memories, okay, they're going throw the mattress to the trash, I mean, throwing it, oh wow, (laughs), somebody could have used that one. Uh, things like that. But I mean, in engaging specifically with individual students to say, I know so and so, so and so, is not there yet. It's not there anymore. (laughs) It's not there. Like the fact that I can remember the Islands Apartment because it was the initial apartments. We had students who lived there, you know, the residents of, uh, you know, a subleased apartment, but we were administering it and things like that. I think those things, I can see the apartments and the people, some people, but not a, uh, not a whole lot of memory of individuals. Stanley: Um, how, how has seeing CSUSM grow over the years impacted you, and your life around the CSUSM community? Berhane: Ahh. You know, I indicated earlier, I came to San Marcos when San Marcos was really a, uh, a mobile home community, a retirement community. When there was no stop signs or four, you know, four-way stops. It was just, you go from one place to another with no stop and five minutes was enough Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 to get you from where you are to where you need to go, where you want to go. The fact that for thirty some years right now, I've seen the growth of San Marcos in general as a community, to where we are right now. It's very hard for me to believe, to tell you the truth. It's just very hard for me to believe. So, the impact is from this small community, retirement community, a neat community to the kind of growth that you see-- even when we moved here (from CSU Jerome’s campus) in 1992, we only had, what, four buildings? This building (Kellogg Library), Commons, Academical Hall, Science Hall. That was it. That was it. It was just fine. It was nice. Now to see where we are, even though in, you know, in (inaudible) there was, uh, something called, “in twenty-five years Cal State San Marcos is supposed to have grown to have up to 25,000 students.” Well, for different reasons that didn't happen. Economy and whatnot and whatnot. But for me, I like the fact that it has grown. So my kids can go to the schools where they went to. Richland (Elementary School), Woodland (Park Middle School), Mission Hills (High School). But those things, well Mission (High School) was not there. I mean, all the growth for me to be able, instead of going (to) San Diego State to be able to finish in San Marcos, I had benefited a lot to be part of it. I mean, extra lucky to be working in here instead of San Diego or moving to other kinds of states or other cities. San Marcos in general, as a community, as a university, gave me life. Life. Do you know, life? Life. It gave me life. So for me, it's beyond, I'm beyond grateful for the impact that Cal State San Marcos. The fact that Cal State San Marcos, when it came time, the place, where everything, I raised three kids in San Marcos who all three of 'em went to like, oh, I told you Richland, Woodland, and then went to college. None of them came here (CSUSM) ‘cause Daddy works here (laughs). So they had to go to different states. But, um, but they knew where, what my expectations of them, they knew they were part of, I was part of this. And they knew they were not just going to finish high school and not go to college. So they all did at least their four, the four-year degree. So for me, it is life. My experience, the people that I come to know here at the university, the faculty, staff, students, it gave me life. I'm telling you, I don't know where I would've been if it wasn’t for Cal State San Marcos. And the whole general San Marcos, the whole area. So I'm very, very grateful. Stanley: That's, that's incredible. Um, yeah, it's just, it's almost like a, it's become like a campus town at this point now. Berhane: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I mean, when I was a student, there was no parking fees or anything (laughs). Now I have (to) pay, like an hour. You pay my job, just leave me (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. There's a train that runs along now. Berhane: That's a different story (laughs). That's a different story, man. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Stanley: Getting back, uh, as we're winding down, um, I know that you had, you were involved with the Black Student Union and Black Student Center. How would would you say that pro, those programs and that, what's the word, uh, correlates or stacks up against the Cross-Cultural Center? I'd say, so. Berhane: Um, I think what, you know, during time, with time you have to identify all the different things that you need, who needs what. And so, I don't know, I don't wanna compare or compete or anything as, you know, not just a Black Student Center, not just a Latino Center, not just a Women's Center or a Native American Center. It's more they all have their own individual roles to play in the, in, in, you know, in this community. So, Black Student Center was a necessary department, was a necessary service, a necessary center to have on campus. If we are going to have specific groups feeling welcomed and that they have a space on campus. With Multicultural Programs its good, when multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-gender, or whatever you call it, in name. It-- but they're able to come and use that as a center for that. But I think people feel comfortable where they feel they belong to. Just like the student organizations. When I was a student, when I see a sociology club, accounting club, Latino club, well, I wanted to have the Black Student Club. So I was part of a Black student club. Uh, we were calling it African American or African Student Organization, African, all kinds of stuff, trying to say we have something that belongs to us. So for me, it's not like in comparison to other centers, it was necessary to have a center for the Black students to feel comfortable enough to go there. And so for us, again, as advocates for services to different interests of different student groups, to have that implemented and to see that while I was a student, I while I was an employee here, was a great thing. I was always involved like I say from day one, whether since starting a student organization, once I became a staff (employee designation), we have the Black Faculty and Staff Association. I've been part of that (inaudible) since day one. When we graduated in 1992, I became one of the board members with the Alumni Association, starting Alumni Association I can say I've been part of a lot of starting things because I think the need, the need is there and if I'm able to help on engage(ment), why not? So I as, as someone who was active as a student, once I graduated, I was also pulled to help start the Alumni Association. And so I think, you know, in trying to answer your question, it's not really in competition or one over the other or against the other. It's more providing services to the different populations, different groups with different interests that we have on campus. Stanley: Uh, yeah, perhaps I worded that a little wrong. You touched on this before, but what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center play as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces like you named before? Berhane: I think it requires an understanding of what its mission is, an understanding. So if I'm coming as a student, new student coming to campus, I'm a Black student. I'm not going to ask for multicultural programs where, you know, “Where is a multicultural program?” I'm gonna ask, where is a Black Student Center? If I'm going to join a student organization, I'm either going to ask for something related to my major or something related to my identity. And so, multicultural, Cross-Cultural Center, the definition of it needs to be clear to people from day one at orientation. Okay? And so, yes, it does have a mission. Yes, it does have a purpose to be here on campus to serve, but is it serving the group of people who don't have a center already? Or is it bringing all the centers together? And so, uh, reexamination of the whole purpose of Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center might be necessary at some point to say, “Who am I serving?” Okay? Because you have Latino Center here, Women's Center, gender, you know, gender and Black Student Center, there may be a need to really qualify, “Why should I go there?” Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Even though I know I'm familiar with it. But if I am a newcomer, what am I gonna look for? It does serve a population that doesn't, that doesn't fit any of the other ones (other centers). But what extent do they understand it? To what extent are they familiar and aware of this service and this center? Stanley: I guess the same thing I ask as a longtime CSUSM (staff and administrative) member and student of CSUSM, what advice would you give the Cross-Cultural Center to be more inclusive and, and get those people who are outside of the lines of the Latin(@/x) Center, or the Black (Student) Center? Berhane: I don't know if, uh, Floyd (Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time of the interview’s recording) will need my advice. I'm sure he, he is very familiar with what he's doing and what, you know, what he sees all the different centers around him, and he works very closely with the student centers and stuff. So they don't really need my advice. But I think, you know, always doesn't hurt to go back and look at who is, who is being engaged here? Who is our population? Who is the most frequently arrival here in relation to-- So if I were to look back at who the most popular, what population used to be there... more often it is more of the Asian population. Okay. So the Asian population probably don't have any other location, but the Multicultural Programs (Cross-Cultural Center). Because we, I'm being honest, this Black Student center, Latino Center, Indian Center, there's an argument there should be a White center too. But (laughs), that's a different story. But I think the thing is, you know, a lot of, we’ve got to go back and take a look at the purpose of this center. Are we serving the population that we were formed to serve and continually revise. Take, you know, take notes of all the people who have come to you on a daily basis and see if we are missing anybody. If we are missing anybody, the best place to meet them is at orientation. When they all come in on campus with their families and you know, tell them where all the different services are, make that as a, you know, make it as an effort. I used to do recruitment too even when I was a student assistant. Students who heard me talk about “Cal State Marcos will offer you this, this, and that.” Once they come to Cal State San Marcos, if they experience the things that I told them; Cal State San Marcos will serve you, they (the students) would remember that and say, “I'm so glad that you said that. I am glad I heard you say that.” And I can see, and really, I use that and it's helped, it has helped me. I really appreciate that. So, we need to be able to impact students from the day one, what kind of services we are providing for them and why they should come to our department, why they should come to our service, why they should come to my class, why they should do those things at the orientation, at wherever they are at the beginning. And so, identify your population, identifying all the different services you can provide, as much as you can provide. You don't expect someone, uh, search you and come to your office. They're not, they're not gonna come, unless they hear you say something, something. Stanley: So, yes. So to, to uh, summarize, make people aware of the program. Make sure that you know who you're serving and that, why they should come there. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Yes. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I mean, people need to know. A lot of people if they, if you don't know it, you don't know it, you're not going to go and search for it. You haven't heard anybody talking about it. So even though it may be available in your fingertips, this is different. Maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm more like person to person, but for me, the only way people can come to (the services) is (if) they're aware of it. So make it aware and be clear about what services you're providing and where you are located, what your hours are, your phone number and blah blah. And have 'em (students) come. And it, again, it doesn't have to be limited to orientation or one area or this and that. Could be classrooms. It could be announcements, it could be a lot of things. But make sure that, you know, you are known on campus for providing services that all students need or specific students need. Stanley: All right. Well I really appreciate you coming. I'm gonna end the recording now. Berhane: Well, thank you. Uh, let me say thank you, uh, Seth, for this opportunity. And I say I'm grateful that you invited me and that I'm a part of this. I hope I have given you what I know a little bit, but I really appreciate this opportunity and thank you very much as well. Stanley: I enjoyed the conversation as well. Ending the recording now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2023-10-30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Berhane, Gezai. Interview transcript. March 29th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. This interview was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from California State University San Marcos's Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gezai Berhane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-29 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Greek life California State University San Marcos. Student Activities Refugees -- Eritrea Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Eritrea San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gezai Berhane Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29 Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Immigrant experience