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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Seth Stanley
Interviewee
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Jennie Ruiz
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5.4 2023-04-07 Ruiz, Jennie. Interview April 7, 2023 SC027-029 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Student success Jennie Ruiz Seth Stanley mp4 RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07.mp4 1:|40(5)|52(10)|66(9)|77(15)|94(11)|105(8)|118(2)|135(1)|148(7)|166(14)|186(3)|212(2)|223(3)|235(3)|255(3)|273(1)|282(3)|292(4)|304(7)|342(5)|353(8)|368(2)|378(4)|388(3)|399(13)|410(1)|457(10)|468(7)|486(7)|510(1)|519(10)|529(9)|539(3)|549(4)|595(6)|606(1)|621(8)|633(13)|677(3)|690(1)|699(12)|713(1)|723(1)|736(10)|753(7)|764(3)|775(1)|794(6)|817(2)|837(9)|847(10)|860(10)|874(5)|885(2)|895(3)|937(11)|957(9)|968(3)|982(2)|1003(2)|1015(12)|1026(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/514cb50273b20f4b16cea6c5712830f4.mp4 Other video English 1 Introductions Introductions from Seth Stanley and Jennie Ruiz 34 Biographical/Educational Background Ruiz describes her personal and educational background. 85 Work During Education. Ruiz recalls working as a student and how it lead to her career in enabling student success in higher education. 187 Discovering Counseling Career Path Ruiz speaks about her beginnings of counseling as a career path and what led her to California State University San Marcos. 281 Experiences working for Student Success Ruiz recalls experiences supporting student success on campus, work as a peer mentor, the special-ness of the CSUSM student body, her work in the Dean of Students Office. CSUSM ; Student Success ; Student Success Coaching 555 Leadership Style and Experience Ruiz speaks about her leadership roles and leadership style in a university setting. CSUSM ; Faculty ; Leadership ; Staff ; Student Success Coaching 710 Network and Relationships on CSUSM Campus Ruiz details her networking skill and speaks about the relationships she's built at CSUSM CSUSM ; Faculty ; Networking ; relations ; Student Affairs 934 Relationships with Students and Building Rapport Ruiz speaks about her relationships with students on campus, building relationships with students and understanding their needs. CSUSM ; Faculty ; O-Team ; Orientation ; Student Relations ; Students ; Team-building 1162 Initial Experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center Ruiz speaks to her initial experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center, how she interacted with the CCC in her role overseeing student orientation, and what the center's physical space was initially like. C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; SLL ; Student Life and Leadership 1260 Cross-Cultural Center's Change Over Time Ruiz recalls how the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time, how the space where the CCC was located in relation to other parts of Student Life and Leadership, and the center's move to the Commons Building, work on a collaborative mural, and then the move to the University Student Union building. C3 ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Floyd Lai ; Jennie Ruiz ; SLL ; Student Life and Leadership ; Tukwut Courtyard 1791 Friendship With Sara Sheikh-Arvizu Ruiz describes her friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu, former Associate Director of Multicultural Programs at CSUSM. CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; Sara Sheikh ; Sara Sheikh-Arvizu 2080 Favorite Memories From Cross-Cultural Center Ruiz recalls working at the front desk of the Cross-Cultural Center, and remembers a student with significant mental health challenges, who found refuge and friendship at the CCC. C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; NSYCH ; Students 2344 How the Cross-Cultural Center Helped Her Develop as a Professional Ruiz speaks to the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on her as a professional, her privilege, and centering voices in programming. Ruiz recalls a workshop with the campus Jewish community. CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; intentionality ; Jennie Ruiz ; Privilege 2652 Memories from the Peer Mentoring Program Ruiz recalls some of her experiences with the creation of the Peer Mentoring Program and recalls an overnight retreat. CSUSM ; Floyd Lai ; New Students ; Peer Mentoring Program ; Retreats ; Sara Sheikh ; Team Building 2956 Thoughts on the Significance of Identity-Specific Spaces Ruiz speaks to the importance of having identity-focused university spaces like the Black Student Center, the Latin
/x Center, etc, which champion underrepresented communities and assist with student success. ACE Scholars ; Community ; CSUSM ; Diversity ; EOP ; Equal Opportunity Program ; Identity-Specific Spaces ; Underrepresented 3354 Cross-Cultural Center and the Purpose of Identity-Specific Spaces Ruiz expands on why identity-specific spaces are necessary and what groups benefit from them. She also goes on to speak about the role the Cross-Cultural Center plays with the expansion of identity-specific spaces. APIDA ; C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Identity Specific Spaces ; Jennie Ruiz ; Kamalayan Alliance ; Pacific Islanders Moving image Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos. Seth Stanley [Interviewer]: This is Seth Stanley. Today I' ; m interviewing Jenny Ruiz for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Hi Jenny. Thank you for coming. Jennie Ruiz [Narrator]: Hi, Seth < ; laughs> ; . SS: To start out, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how that maybe has influenced your work in higher education? JR: Oh, goodness. Okay. Background. How far do you, how do you, how far do you want me to go? SS: As long as you want. JR: Oh goodness. Well, I was born, no, um-- SS: Go for it. JR: Background. Um, so I' ; m born and raised in San Diego, um, from Mira Mesa originally, um, went to college up at Sonoma State. For my undergrad. And did, um, got my degree in sociology. So I did a few different majors, but then I landed on sociology cause I had a really great Intro to Soc[iology] professor who I really enjoyed. Um, and through my time at Sonoma State, I got involved in various things. I mainly had to work on campus just to pay bills and live and all that. So I worked in like different food service and I worked in retail off campus, and actually told the story last, it was, what was it, Tuesday at a session I led about my like, professional journey. But I had a, a job on campus where I was having to put up flyers across campus and I hated it. I would have like hundreds of flyers to post. Um, this is before lot. This is before like electronic signage and all of that. So I, um, and I was miserable but I saw a flyer for a job in the Career Center on campus and I' ; m like, thank goodness no one else has seen this ad at this point ' ; cause I' ; m putting the ads up, so I' ; m gonna apply for this job, which I did. And that kind of took me into this path of, um, of higher ed and student affairs. It kind of opened me up into, like the orientation, you know, kind of world new student orientation, ' ; cause a lot of things were run through that area. Academic advising, I interacted with, um, the program called Freshman Seminar there, which is similar to our GEL program here [program geared towards first-year students and student success in academia]. So I served in various leadership roles. I actually got, uh, I was on the dean' ; s list one semester. There, grades were never my thing, but one semester I got on the dean' ; s list and I got an invitation to apply for leadership positions on campus. So that in conjunction with my job in the Career Center just kind of launched me into kind of the higher ed. like, oh, this is kind of fun! So I was an orientation leader. I worked as a peer mentor in our freshman seminar class. I was a student assistant [at the] Career Center. And then once I graduated, I was looking into kind of a counseling area. Um, didn' ; t quite know what I was going to do and my dad, funny enough, got me a book called What to Do with a Sociology Degree, and I was reading it one day and there was a paragraph on college counseling and I was like, of course I could do this job for work! I had never even connected [that] the professional staff that I worked with were doing that as a career. So that kind of, you know, launched me and I applied for grad school. I went to USD [University of San Diego] for my master' ; s in counseling with a specialization in college student development. Worked in my orientation, worked in the orientation program there as a grad assistant. And then after that, got a job at Stony Brook University in New York as a residence hall director. Um, my friend tipped me off to a job that was here at Cal State San Marcos to be Coordinator of New Student Programs. So I applied for that job and I thankfully got it. And, um, that started my career here back in 2006, back when, funny enough, C3 [Cross-Cultural Center] was literally, I think the size of this room when I first started on the fourth floor, third floor of, um, no, the administrative building past, then [named] Craven Hall. So, and then since then I' ; ve just held a variety of positions and here I am. < ; laugh> ; . SS: [Inaudible] Tell me more about what motivated you to work in a specifically a college setting and specifically supporting student success. JR: Yeah. I think people go into higher ed or any of their professions for one or two reasons: either they had a really good experience or they had a really awful experience and didn' ; t want that to be repeated for somebody else. In my case, I had a fantastic college experience. I had great mentors, I had really great opportunities. Um, so I felt very fortunate. And I just, you know, in my work as a peer mentor in the freshman seminar class, I was meeting individually with these first time freshmen, really working with them and, and you know, talking with them about just life and how to connect and find their place on campus. And I found myself really enjoying it and kind of becoming-- it was a natural thing to me. Um, and so I think I wanted to feel that in my career, be able to really take that with me. And, one of the great things about I think this campus, but just the CSU [California State University] is I think our students are just so special and just work so hard. Not saying that students don' ; t work hard other places but that there' ; s something about our students here. Um, there' ; s a lot of gratitude, there' ; s a lot of understanding, I think, of the privilege they have of being here and getting their degree and, you know, working with that population is really, really rewarding. So, you know, did I want-- I wanted to be that for other students moving forward. But I just loved the feel of being on a college campus. There' ; s nothing like it. I now have a almost seven year-old and just, he' ; s been able to be here since when, since he was born. And just knowing that-- he actually said the other night, he' ; s like, " ; You go to college!" ; And I' ; m like, no, I don' ; t go to col-- I' ; m not a college student, I work at a college. But he just, he associates college with me. And that' ; s just, he' ; s grown up in that environment. And then my mom also worked at USD for 30 years. So, I grew up going to campus with her and hanging out with college kids who, funny enough, seemed significantly older than they do now. So, it was just always a part of, you know, who I was. And so, I felt fortunate to find a place here. SS: And, now you' ; re working as the Interim Director of Student Success Coaching, right? Can you walk us through your experiences as that at the job? JR: In the five weeks I' ; ve been in the position, < ; laugh> ; , um, it' ; s-- it' ; s been, it' ; s been really great. It' ; s actually brought me back to I' ; d say my roots here because I started here at CSUSM overseeing orientation and really working with new students and first year students and all that. So, it' ; s been fun in the short time I' ; ve been here to work with the team to really be creative about how we' ; re gonna be engaging students who are coming in this next year. We' ; re kind of in this two-- two paths right now. It' ; s the finish this semester, but then let' ; s think big and creatively for the incoming class who' ; re gonna be here in fall [20]23. So just really, learning from the team and thinking about how impactful the work that they' ; re doing can really be for the retention success of the first-time freshman coming in. So, I don' ; t know how much you know about the program but it serves first-year students who are not in an otherwise specialized program. So who are not in the Educational Opportunity Program who are not in TRIO [Student Support Services], who are not in CAMP [College Assistance Migration Program], um, ACE Scholars who are former foster youth, and then athletes or international students. So, we kind of capture the rest of the students, so don' ; t really have a home, you know, and we wanna be that contact for them to kind of have that, that person they can go to for any questions that they have just about college. Um, so it' ; s going well. I' ; m really enjoying it. I' ; m able to be creative and think through things and plan, which is something I love to do. SS: So, I know you' ; ve only worked there for, you' ; ve only been working in this position for five weeks, but, um, could you tell me, tell me about, your leadership style and how you adapted to different situations and team members? JR: Yeah, I mean, I think I can relate it to, ' ; cause I was in my old position as associate dean for almost seven years. So I' ; ve been in management leadership roles for over ten, twelve years now. But yeah it' ; s been interesting because I joined a brand new team and so I really had the chance to kind of see how I was gonna adapt myself to them and how they were gonna receive me. And you know, it' ; s funny, my first day I brought donuts and I said to them, ' ; cause this team right now doesn' ; t have a permanent space. They' ; re literally working in a temporary space right now. So my first thing was how do I provide them with a level of, you know, kind of stability and structure. So even in an absence of a physical, permanent location, they can kind of feel that stability. SS: Mm-hmm. JR: But I came in that first day and I was like, so I haven' ; t started a new job in a very long time. So I said, I just ask for your grace. But I' ; m as much as, as reasonable and appropriate, obviously it' ; s just about the human first. These are all human beings who are working in a job and if you don' ; t connect that piece and know what really matters to these people just in life, you' ; re kind of missing the mark. So my goal was, and I told people ' ; cause they wanted to meet with me, people outside my team wanted to meet with me very quickly to like talk about coaching and how I could collaborate. And I said, I want the first month to be me focusing on the team, getting to know the team, building those relationships. And so meeting with them individually and getting to know their strengths and kind of where there' ; s opportunities. But I, I' ; d say I' ; m very, I' ; m all about personal connections and relationships and being collaborative. But I' ; m also good about being, like, sometimes we just kind of have to do things and we can' ; t bring everyone into the fold, but I want to be as transparent as possible, communicate, provide, make sure people are in the loop. ' ; Cause the less transparency there is, people then start to kind of worry and, you know create a narrative themselves. And so, but also humor. I like to approach things with humor. But Yeah. SS: Well, sounds like you' ; re the right person for the job. < ; laughter> ; Um, I' ; d like to ask, how have you leveraged your networks and relationships to support student development and success? JR: Oh gosh. SS: < ; laughs> ; JR: You know, it' ; s-- so this talk I just gave on Tuesday, the Division of Student Affairs does, um, they just started this series called Conversations with Leaders. And they finally, they asked, they asked me to speak and I' ; m like, okay, because part of me is like, " ; You want me to talk? Oh, that' ; s fine!" ; So I talked a lot about this, but one of the benefits of my job, the job I had here when I first started with orientation: it' ; s such just by the nature of the job, so highly collaborative that, that set me up for how I have literally done everything else in every other position I have here on campus. So, it had me working with event planning, with catering, with parking facilities, with advising, with, you know, leadership to student life. Like I work with every area on campus. And so through that, and I' ; m asking people to do things when I don' ; t have any leadership or jurisdiction over them. And so you very quickly had to establish this relationship with people so you can-- ' ; cause all I would do in that job is ask people for favors. It' ; s just, " ; I need you to do this. Can you help with this?" ; And so, and I fast forward now, there' ; s one of the colleagues I' ; ve worked with, I met him my second day working, he works in advising and now I' ; m meeting with him about coaching and how to collaborate. And it' ; s just, we laugh now that I' ; m like, talk about full circle and even doing training on some technology that we' ; re gonna be implementing into the program. The person in IT [Information Technology], I worked with him when PeopleSoft was first coming on board. And so again, it' ; s like " ; It' ; s so fun to work with you again!" ; But, all that to say, it' ; s been so key. And I think what has been very validating is when I' ; ve come into this job, the, the reactions I' ; ve gotten from people saying, " ; I' ; m so glad it' ; s you and I can' ; t wait to work with you in this role." ; And that' ; s been really affirming and I feel like because of my relationships, I' ; ve been able to, you know, there' ; s credibility. I' ; m able to connect the coaches with people that they haven' ; t connected with before. And, you know, if they have a question, I' ; m like, " ; Let me just ask this person directly, like what the answer is." ; They' ; re like, " ; You can just do that?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Yeah, I just can chat whoever, or text whoever and vice versa." ; So what I shared on Tuesday at the session was relationships is literally how I' ; ve gotten everything done here on this campus. It' ; s, it' ; s been so, so important. So I don' ; t think I answered the question? SS: No, I love that. I love that. I' ; m so glad to see you [indistinguishable]. JR: It' ; s been, it' ; s very sweet. I' ; m like, " ; Thank you!" ; It is very, because especially it' ; s people that I' ; ve worked with forever and you know, and you just want people who are collaborative and willing to hear you out and you can laugh with. And I actually said to somebody the other day on the call, I said, " ; You don' ; t have to be diplomatic with me. Just tell me there' ; s clearly something there. So just like, tell me how you' ; re feeling so we can just deal with it." ; And I think they appreciated it because with some people you have to be very diplomatic and be very discreet in how you' ; re saying things. And I' ; m like, just, " ; I' ; ve been here long enough. Like, just tell me." ; SS: [Indistinguishable] So I' ; d like to ask, how do you approach building rapport with students and understanding their unique, needs? JR: Yeah. Um, so I' ; ve had the benefit, I mean, since I' ; ve started here to work directly with students. So in my orientation job, I supervised volunteers who are on orientation team. I supervise students who were paid staff. Like those were my direct reports. So I was directly supporting and working with students. I think very similar with how I just work with anyone. I-- it' ; s so hard to describe something that I feel like just kind of happens, but I try to feel people out. You know, again, I approach a lot of things with humor, but obviously if this setting is not appropriate right, it' ; s, you know, I' ; m able to kind of feel that out. I feel like I' ; m very intuitive. Like, I joke that my superpower is intuition because I can-- I can tell-- if I know someone, I can tell like when they walk in a room and be like, there' ; s something going on or what' ; s happening, and I' ; ll just kind of give a look and be like, you let me know what you need. Like, but I just, I stop and I make efforts. I get to know people and with students, that makes, that makes a difference. You know just being visible and being authentic. Providing, you know, sharing with-- with discretion of course, but like my own personal life and connections and here and there. Um, but you know, in my old-- in my previous position, I was working with students in some really difficult circumstances ' ; cause I was overseeing student conduct. I was overseeing students who were really in a difficult situation within their life. Whether it' ; s, they' ; ve had very something very difficult happen to them and they' ; re navigating it and how they' ; re acting may not be the most appropriate in that setting. And just, um, I' ; m really good about student[s] coming in and being like, " ; What is going on? Like, what' ; s, what' ; s happening?" ; And also good about being like, what we' ; re doing here isn' ; t working. So how do we, let' ; s figure it out. So through the years I' ; ve gotten very good at being direct, but in a supportive manner? Um, some, well, supervisor joked with me, she' ; s like, " ; I' ; ve never met somebody who could suspend a student, and in the same sentence, the student, thanks you." ; < ; laugh> ; It' ; s just, it' ; s treating somebody as a human being. ' ; Cause, even if you' ; re making a decision that' ; s difficult, you can still do it with compassion. And humor too. I love to be sarcastic with students, like, especially O team [Orientation Team]. ' ; Cause I still have a connection with the students who are on orientation team. ' ; Cause my previous position, I was still in the same office and I would, they' ; d be laying down on orientation day and I' ; d just be like, " ; What are you doing?" ; They' ; re like, " ; Oh, sorry Jennie!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; Come on," ; < ; laugh> ; " ; Get your, get yourself together. Don' ; t be laying down on the job." ; So. SS: All right. Um, finally we' ; re gonna get into the Cross-Cultural Center Questions. JR: I know this is like, this is getting us-- getting me warm. Okay. SS: I Really love that. Yeah. I love, like, you' ; re just a person people can trust, a conduit of stability. JR: Conduit of stability. Oh, that' ; s deep. Okay. SS: Could you, anyway, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? JR: Mm-hmm. What I remember about C3 is what we call it. Um, so when I first started, we had, and I imagine you' ; re interviewing Alexis Monte Virgin, SS: Um, I' ; m not sure, she' ; s not one I' ; m interviewing. JR: Yeah, he was the coordinator when I first started. Um, he' ; s like a president of a university now. It' ; s amazing. So he was, he was the coordinator. The, the interaction I had with C3 when I started-- because I oversaw orientation, the Student Life and Leadership Office at the time was this compacted space in, um, past known as Craven Hall. And so when I had on orientation days, we needed a place for Orientation Team to debrief the day. So we' ; d go up to C3. So that' ; s how, that' ; s what I remember it as. We' ; d go up to, we' ; d go to C, we' ; d be sitting on the floor. They had these big red couches, the red couches, the red chairs, and, it was small, but it was like, it was cozy. But yeah, we would just be having people sit on every surface possible and have our debriefing sessions there. And that' ; s kind of my initial like, connection and, memory of how I first interacted. SS: This is a really big follow up, but, how did it shift over time? And did you have any role in this change? JR: Um, how it shifted? So, pretty quickly after I started, probably within the first year-- and I think the plans had already been happening, was we were gonna be moving spaces. We were gonna be moving, offices to the first floor, no, to the third floor [of the Administration Building]. So I don' ; t know if you' ; re familiar or not- where Ace Scholars is now, where the Tukwut courtyard is? That' ; s where Student Life and Leadership used to be. So we were already, when I first started, kind of in this future planning, dream big mode of what can Student Life and Leadership look like. But at that time, C3 was under the purview of Student Life and Leadership. So figuring out where and how that space - because it was very important to have a designated space - not have it be interweaved into our office, but have a community building location for the Center. So, I am sure that I was part of conversations because we were doing like kind of physical planning of the office, figuring out where everything was gonna kind of be. Um, because I was overseeing orientation, the space back then it was, I had this massive cubicle-- Um and then around the corner through a door was where C3 was. So it was an office physically located like right off of the general Student Life and Leadership office. So, kind of talking through and brainstorming how we were gonna fit these red couches into that space. The space was kinda like a triangle. So doing the physical kind of puzzle pieces, you know, figuring out, um, you know, what to put on the walls and to create that space was definitely part of that conversation. So, but yeah I don' ; t remember the nuances, but I would imagine because it was physically located there, we were all part of that " ; What does this look like?" ; conversation. So, um, how it' ; s evolved since then? I mean, it was in that space. And then, if I remember correctly, I don' ; t know what happened first, but a leadership program was created within Student Life and Leadership. It' ; s called SLL [Student Life and Leadership]. And, the idea was to create a Tukwut leadership. Um, is it Tukwut Leadership Center? Yeah. I think I' ; m remembering this correctly. So what ended up happening, I think a space opened up in the Commons Building directly across from Commons 206, I think is the room. And so the Cross-Cultural Center moved up there and then the [TLC], that [Tukwut] Leadership [Center] space, um, kind of a space for leadership programs and student organization meetings, stuff like that, moved into that triangle space on the third floor. So the space when it was up there was-- I mean, it was massive. It was, I mean, comparatively speaking, I mean there was, there were windows, um, there was like a welcome desk. There were the couches again, I believe. We had at one point, I don' ; t know what the timeframe was, but we had painted this like collective mural where everybody had like, it was a, program that they had brought to campus with a muralist. And they pretty much gave us different pieces to draw and paint. And that was put together, I think it' ; s still up in the C3 here in the Student Union, I wanna say. But that was up in the space and it was just bigger and more open. And I wanna say it was up there until the Student Union opened, which I wasn' ; t in as much conversation about because at that time I had transitioned more into the Data Students Office-ish role. So I wasn' ; t gonna be under the same umbrella. But I remember the conversations about the physical space in the Student Union and, the offices and having a balcony and having programming space and all of that. And so you see this space now. I mean it' ; s just, it' ; s just beautiful. And it' ; s with the balcony. And we' ; ve held some retreats in there and separate kind of staff meeting stuff. And Floyd' ; s [Lai, Director of the CCC] great. He' ; s always willing to host people. Um, so it' ; s done a lot of trainings in there and stuff like that. So, that' ; s kind of how the physical space has evolved. It' ; s gone a long way from this sized office. SS: Thank you for that. JR: Yeah. SS: So many permutations. I love the red couches. JR: The red couches. I mean, that' ; s the thing. And you probably will hear a consistent thing is this thread, the red couches is what C3 was. Like, that is what was, you know, the signature furniture there. SS: Yeah. [Indistinguishable] JR: Oh, I' ; m sure you did. SS: Anyways, um, I knew that you were temporary temporal, sorry. Temporarily responsible for the Cross-Cultural Center during a transition between associate directors. Let me ask you, what led you to that position? JR: < ; laughs> ; SS: How' ; d that Happen? JR: I don' ; t know. You know, I think, when you' ; re in a-- when you' ; re leading a department right? And somebody leaves, you' ; re kind of like, okay, who could kind of pick things up and keep them moving while we' ; re doing a search, right? I think the reason I was kind of a natural person to jump into that position and I felt very grateful to do it, was because with my work with New Student Programs and Orientation, I had collaborated with, with Sara Sheik, who remains one of my dearest friends, we had collaborated on the creation of a peer mentoring program. So it was a orientation, New Student Programs and Cross-Cultural Center, um, Multicultural Programs, collaborative program. Where we focused on pairing up first-year students from underserved, underrepresented populations. So really it was, I forget the criteria but, primarily students of color, first gen[eration] students who weren' ; t part of other specialized programs, which now I think about it, I' ; m like, that' ; s funny. That' ; s the population I' ; m working with again. So, because we had worked so closely on that and had, we' ; re really working with the staff on creating that program, and we interviewed and hired the mentors and we onboarded the mentees and all of that stuff. I think when Sara ended up leaving, I was a natural kind of-- ' ; Cause I had already been working with the, with the directors and coordinators of the other, of the other centers. I had already been working with the staff in C3 on this program. So, it was kind of a natural, you know, " ; Can you just help with this for a little bit?" ; And so that way we, you know, can have some consistency? Um, so it was a fun- SS: Yeah, I tried to find how long you were in that position. I couldn' ; t find it. How Long? JR: It was about a semest- I' ; d say it was about a semester, if not an entire semester. It was a couple of months in the spring semester of-- oh gosh, I don' ; t know what year it was. [20]10, [20]11, [20]12, around that time. Yeah, because it was before- ' ; cause I moved into the Interim Assistant Dean of Students position in January, 2013. So I would say it was probably nine [2009] or [20]10 possibly, but it was only a couple months while we worked on, hiring and getting Floyd. So. SS: Perfect. I don' ; t wanna get too sidetracked but, I' ; d like, if you' ; re willing, I' ; d like you to tell me about your friendship with Sara [Sheikh]. How is she? JR: God. Is this what she started crying about when she was asking about relationships? SS: I' ; m not sure. < ; laughs> ; JR: Oh gosh, Sara, what a special human. Um, she texted me earlier. She' ; s like, how was your interview? I' ; m like, it' ; s at three. So I' ; ll tell her that you all asked about her. Um, I remember interviewing her because when we would bring candidates on for our department, you know, we' ; d all have a chance to meet all the candidates and whatnot. She first off, she was not, how do? This is the diplomatic part of me. She was not allowed to reach her fullest potential here. Her skills and her talents were not as tapped as they possibly could have been here. She left before she should have. Um, but opportunities arose and she had to take it. But she is, we are so incredibly different, but she is a quiet, calm, intentional, just peaceful human being. Everything she does is with intention and purpose. And she' ; s one of those people in my life, and I tell her all the time, and it' ; s now her and her wife because they' ; re, they' ; re like cup filling people like you, you hang out with them, you spend time with them. And I' ; m like, okay, my soul, has been refilled. Um, not to get into politics, but this is, this is related the day of the, the day after the 2016 election, there were various emotions. And she happened to be on campus that day. She, Sara was here, this was years after she' ; d gone, but she happened to be bringing a group of students here to campus. And I told her, I said, you are the perfect and only person I would' ; ve wanted to interact with on this day. Because she' ; s so good at just like being in a space with and just allowing space and asking intentional questions. But-- and then her laugh is just so unique. Like when you get her laughing, it' ; s just like, there' ; s no laugh like it. Um, but she just, the students so highly respected her, and everything that she touched here, again she did with intention and purpose. And she makes everyone feel like literally you' ; re the only person in the room. She has nothing else to distract her. It' ; s a very intentional, like, you' ; re hearing it a, a pattern like purposeful and intentional. She' ; s just a good, good person. So, I remember, ' ; cause I tend to talk a lot and, um, and this isn' ; t fair ' ; cause you' ; re asking me to talk, so there' ; s no, there' ; s no judgment here. But I remember we were at a, we were doing a staff retreat and I had to get used to that. she would process. So, you know, somebody would ask a question and a prompt, and we had to give space for Sara because Sara needed time to kind of put all of the thoughts together and process and whatnot. And so, I' ; ve always taken that with me. But, we' ; ve, you know, she was at my wedding. I was at her wedding. She met my son when he was, you know just after he was born. I' ; ve had the privilege to, I was there the day that, they officially adopted their son. I was taking pictures and just, just one of those people, you know? Just one of those people in your life that I' ; m grateful for our relationship here. And just the connection and it, I, it' ; s one of those things where I' ; m like, thank you for allowing me to stay in your life. Because there' ; s days where I' ; m like, what do I bring to you? < ; laughs> ; Because she' ; s just so fantastic. But she would just kind of, she would brush that off and be like you' ; re nuts. So she' ; s special. SS: I love that. That' ; s incredibly great [indistinguishable]. That' ; s amazing. I know we' ; re in the little sidetrack here, but- JR: No, it' ; s fine. it' ; s all connected. SS: It' ; s all oral history, its all about people, so. JR: It Is. SS: Back to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you tell me about a favorite memory? Or not even a favorite, just a memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center? JR: Hmm. < ; laugh> ; . SS: This is a little stumped [one]. JR: No, it' ; s not stumped. I just, there' ; s certain things that it' ; s like, I just immediately remember and I' ; m like, it doesn' ; t have to be super deep, right? SS: Mm-hmm. JR: I remember there was a period of time, I don' ; t know, I think it was before Sara left, but, um, there were ti-- I don' ; t know if she was out, but, we needed to have physical presence in the Center. And so each of the SLL staff would sign up for shifts to sit at the front desk of the center. And, I remember, I love NSYNC. It' ; s a boy band. Yeah. And I remember I was listening to Pandora at the time, it was Pandora. And I told them, I was up there, I had like a morning shift and I said, " ; If I am here at my shift, you are hearing NSYNC and boy bands." ; And it just became a thing. They' ; re like, " ; Oh, Jennie' ; s here." ; And I would just play that music. And, it was, that' ; s the first thing that kind of came to mind. It was just kind of funny. They were like, " ; Oh God, Jenny' ; s on shift." ; But it was cool because it got us physically out of our own offices and I looked forward to that, you know, physical, that physical location change. But then to interact with students in different ways. Um, God, there' ; s a lot of memories. I met a student, and I won' ; t say his name for obvious reasons you' ; ll learn shortly, but I first met him in C3 and I remember him ' ; cause he would walk in and he was always in military gear, but like not like he, he was like within the military, he was always just wearing like military-grade-- SS: Camo? JR: Yeah. He had like a, this military-grade backpack, like, the combat boots and just, and he was just the sweetest, kindest person. And I, that' ; s he, that was the first time I met him was in the C3. And he would come in there all the time and that' ; s where he would hang out and we would talk about life. And he quickly disclosed to me that he had dealt with some significant mental health challenges. And just, my brother has also dealt with some stuff and so he and I were connecting on that and just talking about life and making those connections. And I remembered he had gone away for a bit and then he had returned and he was, he was having some challenges as only a couple years ago. Unfortunately he passed away last year. But I always remember just that connection I had with him. And I realized, you know, a lot of other people on campus had that connection with him. He was just, he was just this unique soul. He was like an old soul. He dealt with so much adversity with mental and physical health, but he just always came with just a presence of kindness and just sh- like sheer gratitude. And when I-- when I changed, when I moved outta my office a couple weeks ago, ' ; cause I was in that office for nine years. One of the things I was, I was cleaning this stuff out and I found a thank you card from him. And I was like, wow, what a gift. And he had, it was after I was out of the role within relation to [C3], but it' ; s a couple years ago when I helped him with some stuff and it just said, " ; Thank you for helping me in one of the difficult times in my life." ; and I was just like, God, what a gift you just gave me. So, um, I don' ; t know if I would' ; ve had the chance to meet him had I not been in that, you know, in that physical space because I know that was a space of safety for him, which was I know the case for a lot of students, so. SS: Wow. JR: [Mm-hmm] < ; laugh> ; . SS: Sorry about that. JR: I know it' ; s tough and yeah. Yeah. SS: [indistinguishable] It' ; s remembering NSYNC Radio, at least. < ; laugh> ; JR: NSYNC Radio. But I think even with him, I still smile, you know, and um, yeah, ' ; cause again, he just exuded gratitude and it, um, yeah. So mm-hmm. SS: Well on a lighter note! Uh. JR: < ; laugh> ; , I know, sorry take these down. SS: No, no, no. It' ; s perfect. It' ; s perfect. I know you only worked there for a semester, but how might have your work at the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional? JR: Massively. I mean, you know, as a, as a White woman, straight CIS woman, I bring privilege with me and I always am trying to learn and understand that what my physical presence may bring depending on the space and I' ; m at right? And, the majority of the students who, who hung out in that space were, were students of color, primarily students who were of Asian Pacific Islander descent. But, it was something for me to be able to-- when I first got asked to kind of fill in the role, part of me was like I didn' ; t want my own identity to be a detriment to their development. But I realize now me even just knowing that I think < ; laughs> ; makes a difference. That I' ; m aware of how my identity impacts those around me. But there were some experiences that came up that I remember we were doing, we were doing some activities-- Oh we were doing a, an event and it was around, um, Judaism, and I don' ; t remember what the content of the workshop was, but Hillel, which is still an active organization for serving and supporting Jewish students, but obviously non-Jewish students can be involved. There was some concern about us offering this workshop and possibly providing false information. And it was one of those things that in the moment you can get very defensive, right? You can be like, no, you know, we' ; re not, we' ; re not trying to do anything to whatever. But what it had me do was, you need to stop for a second and be-- again, the intentionality. It really taught me just you to think of anyone who could be potentially impacted, but also leveraging the voices that you have and collaborate and pull them in. Um, ' ; cause why wouldn' ; t have we have collaborated with folks on campus who live that on, on a daily basis and could provide some additional you know, but I was advising students at this time and the student was just doing what he was told. He was creating these workshops kind of in a vacuum. But it was a really good lesson to, again, do things as intentionally as possible. Even if it means you have to move the workshop a few weeks later, if it means we' ; re doing it the right way, let' ; s do that. So that was a really good lesson and I think it ended up being fine. We ended up collaborating with them. Um, and then just--Trying to think. I mean, just working with all different types of people and interacting with students I probably normally wouldn' ; t have just because they weren' ; t involved in Orientation Team. Like this, this particular pocket of students who worked as student assistants, within all the other centers because there was kind of like this collective team they had of- at the time the Women' ; s Center, the Pride Center, and the Cross-Cultural Center, those three centers ; our staffs would get together on a frequent basis. And there' ; s folks from other staffs that I have connected with that I' ; m still in, contact with that I probably would never have interacted with. And to be honest, they probably would never have even-- based on who I am and how I present and probably would never have even interacted with me. And so, it was a great opportunity to kind of make those connections. But, um, I learned some more things just about program planning. We, we planned some pretty big events and just again, how to honor history and culture and doing it in a meaningful manner while advising students who just wanna get things done. And it' ; s like, how do you balance that? So that was, um, that was a good experience. SS: Yeah. That' ; s great. Um, making connections. using your voices. Moving on, could you describe, and this doesn' ; t have to be with the Cross-Cultural Center ' ; cause I know you worked a pretty short time over there. Could you describe a project or initiative you with that you are particularly proud of, or were a part of necessarily? JR: Hmm. Geez, just so many SS: < ; laughs> ; JR: I think I can discuss the peer mentoring program. Although it was short-lived, I think for what it was. It' ; s one of those programs that no matter how good of a program you have, if you don' ; t have the resources to continue it, you can only do so much. And so-- but it was, it was really cool because it was kind of a brainchild of Sara and then she came to me and said, " ; You work with new students, can we just do this connection?" ; And so we really got a chance to dig into the benefits of peer mentoring and we kind of, we created it really from the ground up. We recruited current students to be peer mentors, created that training for them. And because of my work with O-Team [Orientation Team], who is solely volunteers, you know, I had a training with them, a weekly training with them on, in the spring semester, and then we had retreats. And so I was able to really bring that component. Um, and then what Sara brought was really the, the pieces of how-- why we' ; re serving this particular population because there is an equity gap that our white students are persisting at a higher rate and graduating at a higher rate than our students of color. So, and then there was research that showed that peer mentoring specifically helps to close-- is one of the most beneficial components that a student could have to have a peer to peer connection. So it was really fun to work with her on that and really create the curriculum, create the, the criteria for the mentors. And then I remember we had spreadsheets and we were divvying up the, the caseloads of like who, or not the caseloads-- of like who would be matched with certain mentors and stuff like that. Um, and so that was really fun. And then once Sara left and Floyd came on, um, I don' ; t think it was a while, but he and I had the idea to do like an overnight retreat with this program. So what we did was we had them all come together. So we' ; ve had the mentors and the mentees, this is before school even started, had them on a bus. We drove up to Julian [California] and we did kind of team-building activities. And it was really-- I remember we had this, we wanted to do a ropes course and we had, there' ; s a ropes course at this camp. And I remember Floyd and I were brought in probably three days before the retreat. And our boss at the time said, we can' ; t spend the money on this. And we' ; re like, " ; What are we supposed to do?" ; So then he and I just like hunkered down and created like our own like, internal team-building exercises, but we' ; re like, " ; What the hell are we gonna do?" ; But we figured it out. What' ; s funny now is I think it was that year, one of the mentees is now on my coaching staff. SS: < ; laughs> ; . JR: So I' ; ve known him forever and it' ; s really cool. And then funny enough we, well it' ; s not funny but, we had to buy a new car this past weekend, track me here-- and I, we go to San Diego County Credit Union because that, we had literally just paid our car off on Thursday and that' ; s when our car died. So we went back to San Diego County Credit Union. Said we wanted to get a loan with you again. And as we' ; re meeting with this loan officer, she' ; s like, where do you work? I told her, she' ; s like, " ; I knew you look familiar!" ; And my husband' ; s always like, " ; I swear to God, she knows people everywhere." ; And she said, " ; I was part of the peer mentoring program" ; and I remembered her ' ; cause she was assigned to, I would say was our best mentor ' ; cause some of our mentors left a lot to be des-- like, " ; Can you talk? Can you touch base with your students?" ; But this one -- and her last name was Ruiz as well -- and so we connected on that, but it was so cool to see this student who had been in the peer mentoring program and just being like, " ; I remember you!" ; And it was a nice little reunion. Um, but I thought it was a really cool framework to create. Um, unfortunately the resources just weren' ; t able to keep it going. So. SS: Yeah. That' ; s cool that you saw your, your one mentor--[indistinguishable] JR: It was so funny that, " ; I know you look familiar!" ; When I said I worked at campus, it was funny. SS: Yea I Know plenty of people working in the university space currently working with limited resources. Yeah, it' ; s definitely challenging. JR: It is. Especially when it' ; s such meaningful work like that. I mean, it' ; s literally to support, but now I' ; m in a space again to be able to do that same kind of work, which is exciting. SS: Mm-hmm. What is the significance of having a space that champions underrepresented students? JR: Um, I mean so much. And with underrepresented students, obviously that' ; s such a large umbrella, right? And then every group and, and community that makes up that term needs different things and there' ; s an intersectionality and all that and it can-- but you know what it really comes down to, it' ; s about equity, right? And it' ; s interesting having conversations with people who don' ; t quite get it and there' ; s people who make comments sometimes it' ; s like, " ; What about a space for us?" ; And I' ; m like, do you understand that any-- I can go somewhere and see someone who looks like me and understands my experience. I mean, generally speaking, pretty easily, if you have a student who comes to this campus and does not see anyone who looks like them during the day, does not have a faculty member teaching them who is from the same culture or community, to be able to have a space that a student knows they can go to. To have an experience that just physical and mental and emotional safety on a daily basis, for them to do homework and define that community will only help them to be better in all aspects of their life. That' ; s why programs like EOP [Educational Opportunity Program] and ACE Scholars and those programs exist because they' ; re-- every student should have access to the same level of services, right? First and foremost. But, if you look at certain populations and certain areas where students are from, they then need that much more support to get them to the same place that more majority populations are. So I think providing spaces like this is one step in providing that, that equity. Um, because I can imagine a student coming here and I' ; ve never really experienced it, but being like, " ; I don' ; t see myself here." ; They' ; re not gonna feel an emotional connection to the campus. They' ; re not gonna feel like going to class because why would they care? I mean, there' ; s some students who inherently they just have this intrinsic motivation and they' ; ll go to school and it' ; s fine. But you wanna have that, that community and sense of belonging. That' ; ll just make it that much more just robust of an experience for them. And the community pieces is massive. So spaces like this, if done well, and intentionally and has good leadership and the resources it needs. Because the thing is these centers-- and people joke a lot of times are placed in the basements of buildings, they' ; re placed in inaccessible areas that people don' ; t necessarily know about. If you do it well and put ' ; em in high traffic areas like the USU [University Student Union], have staffing and resources to really support those students, then it goes well. But just historically spaces like that are just under-resourced and which is an issue. So. SS: Yeah. Um, I guess in that same sort of area of, doing it right. Are there any aspects of your time at the Cross-Cultural Center that you would' ; ve approached differently if given the chance? JR: Mm. I, when I came in, because again, there was this like conglomerate of the three spaces. I would, and it was a really short period of time, but I got kind of sucked into their drama < ; laughs> ; , and I wish I would' ; ve come in and I don' ; t know if I had fully found my voice yet like if I, knowing what I know now about things and haven' ; t gone through when I' ; ve gone through now, I feel like I would be able to go in and be able to really help the students to be very-- To, you know to collaborate, but not necessarily be dependent on, I think, I wanted to collaborate with these other folks but I think there was almost a sense of like I had to defer to what they wanted kind of thing. And so probably it would be fun to go back in there now knowing what I know now and see how things would be different. But, I don' ; t know. I think that the state of where I was at the time, you learn based on where you' ; re at in life. And I got lessons, from it. I, um, there were-- I worked with my first student who I was aware of being undocumented at the time and just learning about that process and learning about that impact for her and just, I mean we literally, no one knew but she would, she would submit kind of a fake time sheet every month just to have this sense of normalcy and that nobody would question. And just, that was kind of my first, kind of opportunity to, to work with students experiencing those challenges. So. I can' ; t think of anything glaring. I was still I think pretty early and young in my profession. Um, so, there' ; s still days where I' ; m like, " ; You wanted me to be in there?" ; But, it worked out. But I think those are the things I can, I can think of. SS: That' ; s good. JR: Yeah. SS: More experience. JR: More experience. It' ; s all, it' ; s all experience. Yes. SS: Well, as we' ; re wrapping-- winding down, I know you mentioned before that a lot of people that would go to the Cross-Cultural Center were um-- JR: Asian Pacific Islander. SS: Oh yeah. Asian Pacific Islanders. JR: < ; laughs> ; Yes. SS: I, a lot of questions are raised around like these cultural centers, like the Black Student Center and, the Latinx Center and stuff like that. And should there be an Asian student center? Should there be a white student center? What' ; s your response to that? JR: < ; laughs> ; That' ; s my response. < ; laughs> ; Um, I mean, I think I mentioned it before about the purpose of these spaces. Everyone, every student should have access to support and resources on our campus. I do not think inherently based on the setup of society, students at particular demographics are lacking spaces where they see others like them. SS: [Mm-hmm.] JR: Like I said, things need to be, do, done well. You need to have the staffing. I think it' ; s always going to be met with some dissonance because there' ; s gonna always be people who just don' ; t get it. But the people who are the ones traditionally, and I know there' ; s people who may identify as the same within that center and say, I don' ; t think we should have, you know, separation or whatnot. But it depends where people are at on their identity development. And when you kind of go through identity development, you get to the point where you' ; re comfortable enough in your space and your skin and your whatever to understand that everyone else is in a different space and that' ; s okay. And that some students may be okay with it and some students may really need that space to be successful. And again, if having a Black Student Center allows one black man who goes to school here to have a physical space that he can go to feel safe, then I think that' ; s been successful because otherwise where would he find that here? Right. I think the people who ask those questions about, why don' ; t we have this? Why don' ; t we have this? And it' ; s like, I don' ; t-- there' ; s gonna always be people who ask those questions and they don' ; t have an answer for it. They don' ; t have anything to kind of back up, you know, you ask the question of, " ; Why do you think we need that space?" ; And they don' ; t have any, you know, there' ; s no research to back up the answers that they' ; re hoping to get. It' ; s just, they' ; re there-- The questions are just being asked, I think to kind of stir things up. But again, the caveat is: you don' ; t wanna just do it to do it to check off boxes. You need to do it as intentionally as possible. And I' ; m far from being an expert on how to implement that. But if you don' ; t have the resources and don' ; t have the institutional support, you' ; re only gonna be, you' ; re set up to fail. SS: Mm-hmm. Perfect. Great. Um, yeah, I like that answer. If it helps. It' ; s worth it. JR: Yep. Mm-hmm. SS: To conclude connecting to that question, uh, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces? JR: I would imagine, I' ; ll say Floyd specifically ' ; cause he has been the longest-tenured, um, director in there now. [Floyd] is probably been asked how he' ; s gonna be-- What is the Cross-Cultural Center? How does the Cross-Cultural Center kind of stand apart from the other identity centers? I think with the Cross-Cultural Center, although other centers talk about intersectionality and you know, and that sort of thing, I think what the Cross-Cultural Center can really focus on is really that multiculturalism, how all the different identities intersect and kind of can help to facilitate those conversations and understandings and that sort of thing. I would imagine there' ; s been conversations about-- do we have a space for, you know, our APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American] students? Because that tends to be the space that, that population tends to spend time. I think, there were conversations way back in the day where, ' ; cause they' ; re Kamalayan Alliance, I don' ; t know if it' ; s a really big organization now, but Kamalayan Alliance was a massive student organization back in the day, and that was primarily the students who made up the space in the center and some people had issues with it. It' ; s kind of like but this is not supposed to be just for Filipino students, but it' ; s like, who defines that? You know? It depends on who has a connection here and who feels connected. So, I would imagine-- I know there' ; s some campuses who have, I mean, tons of different affinity spaces and identity centers. And I' ; m sure there' ; s gonna be conversation about what, what is C3' ; s role in that? Um, I don' ; t know the answer I' ; m not privy to those conversations, but I' ; m sure the questions have come up of what is the space for this type of physical and identity space in the midst of adding all these different, identity spaces? Other campuses do it. It' ; s just, I' ; m sure there' ; s a lot of conversations about what is the vision and mission and kind of, where' ; s it gonna go, which can be exciting. Um, but I' ; m sure there' ; s also some pressure to be like, who are we? What is our, what is our mission here on campus? But, um, the current leadership can figure it out. He' ; s [Floyd Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center] good. He' ; s good. SS: Yea, he is good. JR: He is good. SR: Anyways, thank you so much for coming here and-- JR: This was Fun. < ; laughs> ; . I don' ; t know what I expected, But yeah. SS: Anyway, I' ; m gonna end the recording. JR: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Title
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Ruiz, Jennie. Interview April 7, 2023
Description
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Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos.
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SC027-029
Subject
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Education, Higher
Human rights
Student success
Date
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2023-04-07
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video
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Jennie Ruiz
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Jennie Ruiz
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Seth Stanley
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c5940d5103570c06601179277b230b8f.pdf
6501572b27876302ad6780f8f8a675fb
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JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
Seth Stanley [Interviewer]:
This is Seth Stanley. Today I'm interviewing Jenny Ruiz for the California State University San Marcos
Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at
the University Library. Hi Jenny. Thank you for coming.
Jennie Ruiz [Narrator]:
Hi, Seth <laughs>.
SS:
To start out, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how that maybe has influenced
your work in higher education?
JR:
Oh, goodness. Okay. Background. How far do you, how do you, how far do you want me to go?
SS:
As long as you want.
JR:
Oh goodness. Well, I was born, no, um-SS:
Go for it.
JR:
Background. Um, so I'm born and raised in San Diego, um, from Mira Mesa originally, um, went to
college up at Sonoma State. For my undergrad. And did, um, got my degree in sociology. So I did a few
different majors, but then I landed on sociology cause I had a really great Intro to Soc[iology] professor
who I really enjoyed. Um, and through my time at Sonoma State, I got involved in various things. I
mainly had to work on campus just to pay bills and live and all that. So I worked in like different food
service and I worked in retail off campus, and actually told the story last, it was, what was it, Tuesday at
a session I led about my like, professional journey.
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But I had a, a job on campus where I was having to put up flyers across campus and I hated it. I would
have like hundreds of flyers to post. Um, this is before lot. This is before like electronic signage and all of
that. So I, um, and I was miserable but I saw a flyer for a job in the Career Center on campus and I'm like,
thank goodness no one else has seen this ad at this point ‘cause I'm putting the ads up, so I'm gonna
apply for this job, which I did. And that kind of took me into this path of, um, of higher ed and student
affairs. It kind of opened me up into, like the orientation, you know, kind of world new student
orientation, ‘cause a lot of things were run through that area. Academic advising, I interacted with, um,
the program called Freshman Seminar there, which is similar to our GEL program here [program geared
towards first-year students and student success in academia].
So I served in various leadership roles. I actually got, uh, I was on the dean's list one semester. There,
grades were never my thing, but one semester I got on the dean's list and I got an invitation to apply for
leadership positions on campus. So that in conjunction with my job in the Career Center just kind of
launched me into kind of the higher ed. like, oh, this is kind of fun! So I was an orientation leader. I
worked as a peer mentor in our freshman seminar class. I was a student assistant [at the] Career Center.
And then once I graduated, I was looking into kind of a counseling area. Um, didn't quite know what I
was going to do and my dad, funny enough, got me a book called What to Do with a Sociology Degree,
and I was reading it one day and there was a paragraph on college counseling and I was like, of course I
could do this job for work! I had never even connected [that] the professional staff that I worked with
were doing that as a career. So that kind of, you know, launched me and I applied for grad school. I went
to USD [University of San Diego] for my master's in counseling with a specialization in college student
development. Worked in my orientation, worked in the orientation program there as a grad assistant.
And then after that, got a job at Stony Brook University in New York as a residence hall director. Um, my
friend tipped me off to a job that was here at Cal State San Marcos to be Coordinator of New Student
Programs. So I applied for that job and I thankfully got it. And, um, that started my career here back in
2006, back when, funny enough, C3 [Cross-Cultural Center] was literally, I think the size of this room
when I first started on the fourth floor, third floor of, um, no, the administrative building past, then
[named] Craven Hall. So, and then since then I've just held a variety of positions and here I am. <laugh>.
SS:
[Inaudible] Tell me more about what motivated you to work in a specifically a college setting and
specifically supporting student success.
JR:
Yeah. I think people go into higher ed or any of their professions for one or two reasons: either they had
a really good experience or they had a really awful experience and didn't want that to be repeated for
somebody else. In my case, I had a fantastic college experience. I had great mentors, I had really great
opportunities. Um, so I felt very fortunate. And I just, you know, in my work as a peer mentor in the
freshman seminar class, I was meeting individually with these first time freshmen, really working with
them and, and you know, talking with them about just life and how to connect and find their place on
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campus. And I found myself really enjoying it and kind of becoming-- it was a natural thing to me. Um,
and so I think I wanted to feel that in my career, be able to really take that with me. And, one of the
great things about I think this campus, but just the CSU [California State University] is I think our
students are just so special and just work so hard. Not saying that students don't work hard other places
but that there's something about our students here. Um, there's a lot of gratitude, there's a lot of
understanding, I think, of the privilege they have of being here and getting their degree and, you know,
working with that population is really, really rewarding. So, you know, did I want-- I wanted to be that
for other students moving forward. But I just loved the feel of being on a college campus. There's
nothing like it. I now have a almost seven year-old and just, he's been able to be here since when, since
he was born. And just knowing that-- he actually said the other night, he's like, “You go to college!”
And I'm like, no, I don't go to col-- I'm not a college student, I work at a college. But he just, he
associates college with me. And that's just, he's grown up in that environment. And then my mom also
worked at USD for 30 years. So, I grew up going to campus with her and hanging out with college kids
who, funny enough, seemed significantly older than they do now. So, it was just always a part of, you
know, who I was. And so, I felt fortunate to find a place here.
SS:
And, now you're working as the Interim Director of Student Success Coaching, right? Can you walk us
through your experiences as that at the job?
JR:
In the five weeks I've been in the position, <laugh>, um, it's… it's been, it's been really great. It's actually
brought me back to I'd say my roots here because I started here at CSUSM overseeing orientation and
really working with new students and first year students and all that. So, it's been fun in the short time
I've been here to work with the team to really be creative about how we're gonna be engaging students
who are coming in this next year. We're kind of in this two… two paths right now. It's the finish this
semester, but then let's think big and creatively for the incoming class who're gonna be here in fall
[20]23. So just really, learning from the team and thinking about how impactful the work that they're
doing can really be for the retention success of the first-time freshman coming in.
So, I don't know how much you know about the program but it serves first-year students who are not in
an otherwise specialized program. So who are not in the Educational Opportunity Program who are not
in TRIO [Student Support Services], who are not in CAMP [College Assistance Migration Program], um,
ACE Scholars who are former foster youth, and then athletes or international students. So, we kind of
capture the rest of the students, so don't really have a home, you know, and we wanna be that contact
for them to kind of have that, that person they can go to for any questions that they have just about
college. Um, so it's going well. I'm really enjoying it. I'm able to be creative and think through things and
plan, which is something I love to do.
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SS:
So, I know you've only worked there for, you've only been working in this position for five weeks, but,
um, could you tell me, tell me about, your leadership style and how you adapted to different situations
and team members?
JR:
Yeah, I mean, I think I can relate it to, ‘cause I was in my old position as associate dean for almost seven
years. So I've been in management leadership roles for over ten, twelve years now. But yeah it's been
interesting because I joined a brand new team and so I really had the chance to kind of see how I was
gonna adapt myself to them and how they were gonna receive me. And you know, it's funny, my first
day I brought donuts and I said to them, ‘cause this team right now doesn't have a permanent space.
They're literally working in a temporary space right now. So my first thing was how do I provide them
with a level of, you know, kind of stability and structure. So even in an absence of a physical, permanent
location, they can kind of feel that stability.
SS:
Mm-hmm.
JR:
But I came in that first day and I was like, so I haven't started a new job in a very long time. So I said, I
just ask for your grace. But I'm as much as, as reasonable and appropriate, obviously it's just about the
human first. These are all human beings who are working in a job and if you don't connect that piece
and know what really matters to these people just in life, you're kind of missing the mark. So my goal
was, and I told people ‘cause they wanted to meet with me, people outside my team wanted to meet
with me very quickly to like talk about coaching and how I could collaborate. And I said, I want the first
month to be me focusing on the team, getting to know the team, building those relationships.
And so meeting with them individually and getting to know their strengths and kind of where there's
opportunities. But I, I'd say I'm very, I'm all about personal connections and relationships and being
collaborative. But I'm also good about being, like, sometimes we just kind of have to do things and we
can't bring everyone into the fold, but I want to be as transparent as possible, communicate, provide,
make sure people are in the loop. ‘Cause the less transparency there is, people then start to kind of
worry and, you know create a narrative themselves. And so, but also humor. I like to approach things
with humor. But Yeah.
SS:
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Well, sounds like you're the right person for the job. <laughter> Um, I'd like to ask, how have you
leveraged your networks and relationships to support student development and success?
JR:
Oh gosh.
SS:
<laughs>
JR:
You know, it's… so this talk I just gave on Tuesday, the Division of Student Affairs does, um, they just
started this series called Conversations with Leaders. And they finally, they asked, they asked me to
speak and I'm like, okay, because part of me is like, “You want me to talk? Oh, that's fine!” So I talked a
lot about this, but one of the benefits of my job, the job I had here when I first started with orientation:
it's such just by the nature of the job, so highly collaborative that, that set me up for how I have literally
done everything else in every other position I have here on campus. So, it had me working with event
planning, with catering, with parking facilities, with advising, with, you know, leadership to student life.
Like I work with every area on campus. And so through that, and I'm asking people to do things when I
don't have any leadership or jurisdiction over them. And so you very quickly had to establish this
relationship with people so you can-- ’cause all I would do in that job is ask people for favors. It's just, “I
need you to do this. Can you help with this?” And so, and I fast forward now, there's one of the
colleagues I've worked with, I met him my second day working, he works in advising and now I'm
meeting with him about coaching and how to collaborate. And it's just, we laugh now that I'm like, talk
about full circle and even doing training on some technology that we're gonna be implementing into the
program. The person in IT [Information Technology], I worked with him when PeopleSoft was first
coming on board. And so again, it's like “It's so fun to work with you again!”
But, all that to say, it's been so key. And I think what has been very validating is when I've come into this
job, the, the reactions I've gotten from people saying, “I'm so glad it's you and I can't wait to work with
you in this role.” And that's been really affirming and I feel like because of my relationships, I've been
able to, you know, there's credibility. I'm able to connect the coaches with people that they haven't
connected with before. And, you know, if they have a question, I'm like, ”Let me just ask this person
directly, like what the answer is.” They're like, “You can just do that?” I'm like, “Yeah, I just can chat
whoever, or text whoever and vice versa.” So what I shared on Tuesday at the session was relationships
is literally how I've gotten everything done here on this campus. It's, it's been so, so important. So I don't
think I answered the question?
SS:
No, I love that. I love that. I'm so glad to see you [indistinguishable].
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JR:
It's been, it's very sweet. I'm like, “Thank you!” It is very, because especially it's people that I've worked
with forever and you know, and you just want people who are collaborative and willing to hear you out
and you can laugh with. And I actually said to somebody the other day on the call, I said, “You don’t have
to be diplomatic with me. Just tell me there’s clearly something there. So just like, tell me how you’re
feeling so we can just deal with it.” And I think they appreciated it because with some people you have
to be very diplomatic and be very discreet in how you're saying things. And I'm like, just, “I've been here
long enough. Like, just tell me.”
SS:
[Indistinguishable] So I'd like to ask, how do you approach building rapport with students and
understanding their unique, needs?
JR:
Yeah. Um, so I've had the benefit, I mean, since I've started here to work directly with students. So in my
orientation job, I supervised volunteers who are on orientation team. I supervise students who were
paid staff. Like those were my direct reports. So I was directly supporting and working with students. I
think very similar with how I just work with anyone. I… it's so hard to describe something that I feel like
just kind of happens, but I try to feel people out. You know, again, I approach a lot of things with humor,
but obviously if this setting is not appropriate right, it's, you know, I'm able to kind of feel that out. I feel
like I'm very intuitive. Like, I joke that my superpower is intuition because I can… I can tell-- if I know
someone, I can tell like when they walk in a room and be like, there's something going on or what's
happening, and I'll just kind of give a look and be like, you let me know what you need. Like, but I just, I
stop and I make efforts. I get to know people and with students, that makes, that makes a difference.
You know just being visible and being authentic. Providing, you know, sharing with-- with discretion of
course, but like my own personal life and connections and here and there. Um, but you know, in my old- in my previous position, I was working with students in some really difficult circumstances ‘cause I was
overseeing student conduct. I was overseeing students who were really in a difficult situation within
their life. Whether it's, they've had very something very difficult happen to them and they're navigating
it and how they're acting may not be the most appropriate in that setting. And just, um, I'm really good
about student[s] coming in and being like, “What is going on? Like, what's, what's happening?” And also
good about being like, what we're doing here isn't working. So how do we, let’s figure it out. So through
the years I’ve gotten very good at being direct, but in a supportive manner? Um, some, well, supervisor
joked with me, she's like, “I've never met somebody who could suspend a student, and in the same
sentence, the student, thanks you.” <laugh> It's just, it's treating somebody as a human being. ’Cause,
even if you're making a decision that's difficult, you can still do it with compassion. And humor too. I
love to be sarcastic with students, like, especially O team [Orientation Team]. ‘Cause I still have a
connection with the students who are on orientation team. ‘Cause my previous position, I was still in the
same office and I would, they'd be laying down on orientation day and I'd just be like, “What are you
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doing?” They’re like, “Oh, sorry Jennie!” And I'm like, “Come on,” <laugh> “Get your, get yourself
together. Don't be laying down on the job.” So.
SS:
All right. Um, finally we're gonna get into the Cross-Cultural Center Questions.
JR:
I know this is like, this is getting us-- getting me warm. Okay.
SS:
I Really love that. Yeah. I love, like, you're just a person people can trust, a conduit of stability.
JR:
Conduit of stability. Oh, that's deep. Okay.
SS:
Could you, anyway, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began
engaging with it?
JR:
Mm-hmm. What I remember about C3 is what we call it. Um, so when I first started, we had, and I
imagine you're interviewing Alexis Monte Virgin,
SS:
Um, I'm not sure, she's not one I'm interviewing.
JR:
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Yeah, he was the coordinator when I first started. Um, he's like a president of a university now. It's
amazing. So he was, he was the coordinator. The, the interaction I had with C3 when I started… because
I oversaw orientation, the Student Life and Leadership Office at the time was this compacted space in,
um, past known as Craven Hall. And so when I had on orientation days, we needed a place for
Orientation Team to debrief the day. So we'd go up to C3. So that's how, that's what I remember it as.
We'd go up to, we'd go to C, we'd be sitting on the floor. They had these big red couches, the red
couches, the red chairs, and, it was small, but it was like, it was cozy. But yeah, we would just be having
people sit on every surface possible and have our debriefing sessions there. And that's kind of my initial
like, connection and, memory of how I first interacted.
SS:
This is a really big follow up, but, how did it shift over time? And did you have any role in this change?
JR:
Um, how it shifted? So, pretty quickly after I started, probably within the first year… and I think the plans
had already been happening, was we were gonna be moving spaces. We were gonna be moving, offices
to the first floor, no, to the third floor [of the Administration Building]. So I don't know if you're familiar
or not- where Ace Scholars is now, where the Tukwut courtyard is? That's where Student Life and
Leadership used to be. So we were already, when I first started, kind of in this future planning, dream
big mode of what can Student Life and Leadership look like. But at that time, C3 was under the purview
of Student Life and Leadership. So figuring out where and how that space - because it was very
important to have a designated space - not have it be interweaved into our office, but have a
community building location for the Center.
So, I am sure that I was part of conversations because we were doing like kind of physical planning of
the office, figuring out where everything was gonna kind of be. Um, because I was overseeing
orientation, the space back then it was, I had this massive cubicle… Um and then around the corner
through a door was where C3 was. So it was an office physically located like right off of the general
Student Life and Leadership office. So, kind of talking through and brainstorming how we were gonna fit
these red couches into that space. The space was kinda like a triangle. So doing the physical kind of
puzzle pieces, you know, figuring out, um, you know, what to put on the walls and to create that space
was definitely part of that conversation. So, but yeah I don't remember the nuances, but I would
imagine because it was physically located there, we were all part of that “What does this look like?”
conversation. So, um, how it's evolved since then? I mean, it was in that space. And then, if I remember
correctly, I don't know what happened first, but a leadership program was created within Student Life
and Leadership. It's called SLL [Student Life and Leadership]. And, the idea was to create a Tukwut
leadership. Um, is it Tukwut Leadership Center? Yeah. I think I'm remembering this correctly. So what
ended up happening, I think a space opened up in the Commons Building directly across from Commons
206, I think is the room. And so the Cross-Cultural Center moved up there and then the [TLC], that
[Tukwut] Leadership [Center] space, um, kind of a space for leadership programs and student
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organization meetings, stuff like that, moved into that triangle space on the third floor. So the space
when it was up there was… I mean, it was massive.
It was, I mean, comparatively speaking, I mean there was, there were windows, um, there was like a
welcome desk. There were the couches again, I believe. We had at one point, I don't know what the
timeframe was, but we had painted this like collective mural where everybody had like, it was a,
program that they had brought to campus with a muralist. And they pretty much gave us different
pieces to draw and paint. And that was put together, I think it's still up in the C3 here in the Student
Union, I wanna say. But that was up in the space and it was just bigger and more open. And I wanna say
it was up there until the Student Union opened, which I wasn't in as much conversation about because
at that time I had transitioned more into the Data Students Office-ish role.
So I wasn't gonna be under the same umbrella. But I remember the conversations about the physical
space in the Student Union and, the offices and having a balcony and having programming space and all
of that. And so you see this space now. I mean it's just, it's just beautiful. And it's with the balcony. And
we've held some retreats in there and separate kind of staff meeting stuff. And Floyd's [Lai, Director of
the CCC] great. He's always willing to host people. Um, so it's done a lot of trainings in there and stuff
like that. So, that's kind of how the physical space has evolved. It's gone a long way from this sized
office.
SS:
Thank you for that.
JR:
Yeah.
SS:
So many permutations. I love the red couches.
JR:
The red couches. I mean, that's the thing. And you probably will hear a consistent thing is this thread,
the red couches is what C3 was. Like, that is what was, you know, the signature furniture there.
SS:
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Yeah. [Indistinguishable]
JR:
Oh, I'm sure you did.
SS:
Anyways, um, I knew that you were temporary temporal, sorry. Temporarily responsible for the CrossCultural Center during a transition between associate directors. Let me ask you, what led you to that
position?
JR:
<laughs>
SS:
How’d that Happen?
JR:
I don't know. You know, I think, when you're in a-- when you're leading a department right? And
somebody leaves, you're kind of like, okay, who could kind of pick things up and keep them moving
while we're doing a search, right? I think the reason I was kind of a natural person to jump into that
position and I felt very grateful to do it, was because with my work with New Student Programs and
Orientation, I had collaborated with, with Sara Sheik, who remains one of my dearest friends, we had
collaborated on the creation of a peer mentoring program. So it was a orientation, New Student
Programs and Cross-Cultural Center, um, Multicultural Programs, collaborative program. Where we
focused on pairing up first-year students from underserved, underrepresented populations. So really it
was, I forget the criteria but, primarily students of color, first gen[eration] students who weren't part of
other specialized programs, which now I think about it, I'm like, that's funny. That's the population I'm
working with again. So, because we had worked so closely on that and had, we're really working with
the staff on creating that program, and we interviewed and hired the mentors and we onboarded the
mentees and all of that stuff. I think when Sara ended up leaving, I was a natural kind of… ‘Cause I had
already been working with the, with the directors and coordinators of the other, of the other centers. I
had already been working with the staff in C3 on this program. So, it was kind of a natural, you know,
“Can you just help with this for a little bit?” And so that way we, you know, can have some consistency?
Um, so it was a fun-
SS:
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Yeah, I tried to find how long you were in that position. I couldn't find it. How Long?
JR:
It was about a semest- I'd say it was about a semester, if not an entire semester. It was a couple of
months in the spring semester of… oh gosh, I don't know what year it was. [20]10, [20]11, [20]12,
around that time. Yeah, because it was before- ‘cause I moved into the Interim Assistant Dean of
Students position in January, 2013. So I would say it was probably nine [2009] or [20]10 possibly, but it
was only a couple months while we worked on, hiring and getting Floyd. So.
SS:
Perfect. I don’t wanna get too sidetracked but, I'd like, if you’re willing, I'd like you to tell me about your
friendship with Sara [Sheikh]. How is she?
JR:
God. Is this what she started crying about when she was asking about relationships?
SS:
I’m not sure. <laughs>
JR:
Oh gosh, Sara, what a special human. Um, she texted me earlier. She's like, how was your interview? I'm
like, it's at three. So I'll tell her that you all asked about her. Um, I remember interviewing her because
when we would bring candidates on for our department, you know, we'd all have a chance to meet all
the candidates and whatnot. She first off, she was not, how do? This is the diplomatic part of me. She
was not allowed to reach her fullest potential here. Her skills and her talents were not as tapped as they
possibly could have been here. She left before she should have. Um, but opportunities arose and she
had to take it. But she is, we are so incredibly different, but she is a quiet, calm, intentional, just
peaceful human being.
Everything she does is with intention and purpose. And she's one of those people in my life, and I tell
her all the time, and it's now her and her wife because they're, they're like cup filling people like you,
you hang out with them, you spend time with them. And I'm like, okay, my soul, has been refilled. Um,
not to get into politics, but this is, this is related the day of the, the day after the 2016 election, there
were various emotions. And she happened to be on campus that day. She, Sara was here, this was years
after she'd gone, but she happened to be bringing a group of students here to campus. And I told her, I
said, you are the perfect and only person I would've wanted to interact with on this day. Because she's
so good at just like being in a space with and just allowing space and asking intentional questions. But…
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and then her laugh is just so unique. Like when you get her laughing, it's just like, there's no laugh like it.
Um, but she just, the students so highly respected her, and everything that she touched here, again she
did with intention and purpose. And she makes everyone feel like literally you're the only person in the
room. She has nothing else to distract her. It's a very intentional, like, you're hearing it a, a pattern like
purposeful and intentional. She's just a good, good person. So, I remember, ‘cause I tend to talk a lot
and, um, and this isn't fair ‘cause you're asking me to talk, so there's no, there's no judgment here. But I
remember we were at a, we were doing a staff retreat and I had to get used to that. she would process.
So, you know, somebody would ask a question and a prompt, and we had to give space for Sara because
Sara needed time to kind of put all of the thoughts together and process and whatnot. And so, I've
always taken that with me. But, we've, you know, she was at my wedding. I was at her wedding. She met
my son when he was, you know just after he was born. I've had the privilege to, I was there the day that,
they officially adopted their son. I was taking pictures and just, just one of those people, you know? Just
one of those people in your life that I'm grateful for our relationship here. And just the connection and
it, I, it’s one of those things where I’m like, thank you for allowing me to stay in your life. Because
there’s days where I’m like, what do I bring to you? <laughs> Because she's just so fantastic. But she
would just kind of, she would brush that off and be like you’re nuts. So she's special.
SS:
I love that. That's incredibly great [indistinguishable]. That's amazing. I know we're in the little sidetrack
here, but-
JR:
No, it's fine. it's all connected.
SS:
It’s all oral history, its all about people, so.
JR:
It Is.
SS:
Back to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you tell me about a favorite memory? Or not even a favorite,
just a memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center?
JR:
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Hmm. <laugh>.
SS:
This is a little stumped [one].
JR:
No, it's not stumped. I just, there's certain things that it's like, I just immediately remember and I'm like,
it doesn't have to be super deep, right?
SS:
Mm-hmm.
JR:
I remember there was a period of time, I don't know, I think it was before Sara left, but, um, there were
ti-- I don't know if she was out, but, we needed to have physical presence in the Center. And so each of
the SLL staff would sign up for shifts to sit at the front desk of the center. And, I remember, I love
NSYNC. It's a boy band. Yeah. And I remember I was listening to Pandora at the time, it was Pandora.
And I told them, I was up there, I had like a morning shift and I said, “If I am here at my shift, you are
hearing NSYNC and boy bands.” And it just became a thing. They’re like, “Oh, Jennie's here.” And I would
just play that music. And, it was, that's the first thing that kind of came to mind. It was just kind of funny.
They were like, “Oh God, Jenny's on shift.” But it was cool because it got us physically out of our own
offices and I looked forward to that, you know, physical, that physical location change. But then to
interact with students in different ways. Um, God, there's a lot of memories. I met a student, and I won't
say his name for obvious reasons you'll learn shortly, but I first met him in C3 and I remember him
‘cause he would walk in and he was always in military gear, but like not like he, he was like within the
military, he was always just wearing like military-grade-SS:
Camo?
JR: Yeah. He had like a, this military-grade backpack, like, the combat boots and just, and he was just the
sweetest, kindest person. And I, that's he, that was the first time I met him was in the C3. And he would
come in there all the time and that's where he would hang out and we would talk about life. And he
quickly disclosed to me that he had dealt with some significant mental health challenges. And just, my
brother has also dealt with some stuff and so he and I were connecting on that and just talking about life
and making those connections. And I remembered he had gone away for a bit and then he had returned
and he was, he was having some challenges as only a couple years ago. Unfortunately he passed away
last year. But I always remember just that connection I had with him.
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And I realized, you know, a lot of other people on campus had that connection with him. He was just, he
was just this unique soul. He was like an old soul. He dealt with so much adversity with mental and
physical health, but he just always came with just a presence of kindness and just sh- like sheer
gratitude. And when I… when I changed, when I moved outta my office a couple weeks ago, ‘cause I was
in that office for nine years. One of the things I was, I was cleaning this stuff out and I found a thank you
card from him. And I was like, wow, what a gift. And he had, it was after I was out of the role within
relation to [C3], but it's a couple years ago when I helped him with some stuff and it just said, “Thank
you for helping me in one of the difficult times in my life.” and I was just like, God, what a gift you just
gave me. So, um, I don't know if I would've had the chance to meet him had I not been in that, you
know, in that physical space because I know that was a space of safety for him, which was I know the
case for a lot of students, so.
SS:
Wow.
JR:
[Mm-hmm] <laugh>.
SS:
Sorry about that.
JR:
I know it’s tough and yeah. Yeah.
SS:
[indistinguishable] It's remembering NSYNC Radio, at least. <laugh>
JR:
NSYNC Radio. But I think even with him, I still smile, you know, and um, yeah, ‘cause again, he just
exuded gratitude and it, um, yeah. So mm-hmm.
SS:
Well on a lighter note! Uh.
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JR:
<laugh>, I know, sorry take these down.
SS:
No, no, no. It's perfect. It's perfect. I know you only worked there for a semester, but how might have
your work at the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional?
JR:
Massively. I mean, you know, as a, as a White woman, straight CIS woman, I bring privilege with me and
I always am trying to learn and understand that what my physical presence may bring depending on the
space and I'm at right? And, the majority of the students who, who hung out in that space were, were
students of color, primarily students who were of Asian Pacific Islander descent. But, it was something
for me to be able to-- when I first got asked to kind of fill in the role, part of me was like I didn't want my
own identity to be a detriment to their development. But I realize now me even just knowing that I think
<laughs> makes a difference. That I'm aware of how my identity impacts those around me.
But there were some experiences that came up that I remember we were doing, we were doing some
activities… Oh we were doing a, an event and it was around, um, Judaism, and I don't remember what
the content of the workshop was, but Hillel, which is still an active organization for serving and
supporting Jewish students, but obviously non-Jewish students can be involved. There was some
concern about us offering this workshop and possibly providing false information. And it was one of
those things that in the moment you can get very defensive, right? You can be like, no, you know, we're
not, we're not trying to do anything to whatever. But what it had me do was, you need to stop for a
second and be-- again, the intentionality. It really taught me just you to think of anyone who could be
potentially impacted, but also leveraging the voices that you have and collaborate and pull them in.
Um, ‘cause why wouldn't have we have collaborated with folks on campus who live that on, on a daily
basis and could provide some additional you know, but I was advising students at this time and the
student was just doing what he was told. He was creating these workshops kind of in a vacuum. But it
was a really good lesson to, again, do things as intentionally as possible. Even if it means you have to
move the workshop a few weeks later, if it means we're doing it the right way, let's do that. So that was
a really good lesson and I think it ended up being fine. We ended up collaborating with them. Um, and
then just…Trying to think. I mean, just working with all different types of people and interacting with
students I probably normally wouldn't have just because they weren't involved in Orientation Team. Like
this, this particular pocket of students who worked as student assistants, within all the other centers
because there was kind of like this collective team they had of- at the time the Women's Center, the
Pride Center, and the Cross-Cultural Center, those three centers; our staffs would get together on a
frequent basis. And there’s folks from other staffs that I have connected with that I'm still in, contact
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with that I probably would never have interacted with. And to be honest, they probably would never
have even-- based on who I am and how I present and probably would never have even interacted with
me. And so, it was a great opportunity to kind of make those connections. But, um, I learned some more
things just about program planning. We, we planned some pretty big events and just again, how to
honor history and culture and doing it in a meaningful manner while advising students who just wanna
get things done. And it's like, how do you balance that? So that was, um, that was a good experience.
SS:
Yeah. That's great. Um, making connections. using your voices. Moving on, could you describe, and this
doesn't have to be with the Cross-Cultural Center ‘cause I know you worked a pretty short time over
there. Could you describe a project or initiative you with that you are particularly proud of, or were a
part of necessarily?
JR:
Hmm. Geez, just so many-SS:
<laughs>
JR:
I think I can discuss the peer mentoring program. Although it was short-lived, I think for what it was. It’s
one of those programs that no matter how good of a program you have, if you don't have the resources
to continue it, you can only do so much. And so… but it was, it was really cool because it was kind of a
brainchild of Sara and then she came to me and said, “You work with new students, can we just do this
connection?” And so we really got a chance to dig into the benefits of peer mentoring and we kind of,
we created it really from the ground up. We recruited current students to be peer mentors, created that
training for them. And because of my work with O-Team [Orientation Team], who is solely volunteers,
you know, I had a training with them, a weekly training with them on, in the spring semester, and then
we had retreats. And so I was able to really bring that component. Um, and then what Sara brought was
really the, the pieces of how-- why we're serving this particular population because there is an equity
gap that our white students are persisting at a higher rate and graduating at a higher rate than our
students of color. So, and then there was research that showed that peer mentoring specifically helps to
close-- is one of the most beneficial components that a student could have to have a peer to peer
connection. So it was really fun to work with her on that and really create the curriculum, create the, the
criteria for the mentors. And then I remember we had spreadsheets and we were divvying up the, the
caseloads of like who, or not the caseloads-- of like who would be matched with certain mentors and
stuff like that.
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Um, and so that was really fun. And then once Sara left and Floyd came on, um, I don't think it was a
while, but he and I had the idea to do like an overnight retreat with this program. So what we did was
we had them all come together. So we've had the mentors and the mentees, this is before school even
started, had them on a bus. We drove up to Julian [California] and we did kind of team-building
activities. And it was really-- I remember we had this, we wanted to do a ropes course and we had,
there's a ropes course at this camp. And I remember Floyd and I were brought in probably three days
before the retreat. And our boss at the time said, we can't spend the money on this. And we're like,
“What are we supposed to do?” So then he and I just like hunkered down and created like our own like,
internal team-building exercises, but we're like, “What the hell are we gonna do?” But we figured it out.
What's funny now is I think it was that year, one of the mentees is now on my coaching staff.
SS:
<laughs>.
JR:
So I've known him forever and it's really cool. And then funny enough we, well it's not funny but, we had
to buy a new car this past weekend, track me here-- and I, we go to San Diego County Credit Union
because that, we had literally just paid our car off on Thursday and that's when our car died. So we went
back to San Diego County Credit Union. Said we wanted to get a loan with you again. And as we’re
meeting with this loan officer, she’s like, where do you work? I told her, she’s like, “I knew you look
familiar!” And my husband's always like, “I swear to God, she knows people everywhere.” And she said,
“I was part of the peer mentoring program” and I remembered her ‘cause she was assigned to, I would
say was our best mentor ‘cause some of our mentors left a lot to be des-- like, “Can you talk? Can you
touch base with your students?” But this one -- and her last name was Ruiz as well -- and so we
connected on that, but it was so cool to see this student who had been in the peer mentoring program
and just being like, “I remember you!” And it was a nice little reunion. Um, but I thought it was a really
cool framework to create. Um, unfortunately the resources just weren't able to keep it going. So.
SS:
Yeah. That's cool that you saw your, your one mentor—[indistinguishable]
JR:
It was so funny that, “I know you look familiar!” When I said I worked at campus, it was funny.
SS:
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Yea I Know plenty of people working in the university space currently working with limited resources.
Yeah, it's definitely challenging.
JR:
It is. Especially when it's such meaningful work like that. I mean, it's literally to support, but now I'm in a
space again to be able to do that same kind of work, which is exciting.
SS:
Mm-hmm. What is the significance of having a space that champions underrepresented students?
JR:
Um, I mean so much. And with underrepresented students, obviously that's such a large umbrella, right?
And then every group and, and community that makes up that term needs different things and there's
an intersectionality and all that and it can-- but you know what it really comes down to, it's about
equity, right? And it's interesting having conversations with people who don't quite get it and there's
people who make comments sometimes it's like, “What about a space for us?” And I'm like, do you
understand that any-- I can go somewhere and see someone who looks like me and understands my
experience. I mean, generally speaking, pretty easily, if you have a student who comes to this campus
and does not see anyone who looks like them during the day, does not have a faculty member teaching
them who is from the same culture or community, to be able to have a space that a student knows they
can go to. To have an experience that just physical and mental and emotional safety on a daily basis, for
them to do homework and define that community will only help them to be better in all aspects of their
life. That's why programs like EOP [Educational Opportunity Program] and ACE Scholars and those
programs exist because they're-- every student should have access to the same level of services, right?
First and foremost. But, if you look at certain populations and certain areas where students are from,
they then need that much more support to get them to the same place that more majority populations
are. So I think providing spaces like this is one step in providing that, that equity. Um, because I can
imagine a student coming here and I've never really experienced it, but being like, “I don't see myself
here.” They're not gonna feel an emotional connection to the campus. They’re not gonna feel like going
to class because why would they care? I mean, there's some students who inherently they just have this
intrinsic motivation and they'll go to school and it's fine.
But you wanna have that, that community and sense of belonging. That'll just make it that much more
just robust of an experience for them. And the community pieces is massive. So spaces like this, if done
well, and intentionally and has good leadership and the resources it needs. Because the thing is these
centers-- and people joke a lot of times are placed in the basements of buildings, they're placed in
inaccessible areas that people don't necessarily know about. If you do it well and put 'em in high traffic
areas like the USU [University Student Union], have staffing and resources to really support those
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students, then it goes well. But just historically spaces like that are just under-resourced and which is an
issue. So.
SS:
Yeah. Um, I guess in that same sort of area of, doing it right. Are there any aspects of your time at the
Cross-Cultural Center that you would've approached differently if given the chance?
JR:
Mm. I, when I came in, because again, there was this like conglomerate of the three spaces. I would, and
it was a really short period of time, but I got kind of sucked into their drama <laughs>, and I wish I
would've come in and I don't know if I had fully found my voice yet like if I, knowing what I know now
about things and haven't gone through when I've gone through now, I feel like I would be able to go in
and be able to really help the students to be very… To, you know to collaborate, but not necessarily be
dependent on, I think, I wanted to collaborate with these other folks but I think there was almost a
sense of like I had to defer to what they wanted kind of thing. And so probably it would be fun to go
back in there now knowing what I know now and see how things would be different. But, I don't know. I
think that the state of where I was at the time, you learn based on where you're at in life. And I got
lessons, from it. I, um, there were-- I worked with my first student who I was aware of being
undocumented at the time and just learning about that process and learning about that impact for her
and just, I mean we literally, no one knew but she would, she would submit kind of a fake time sheet
every month just to have this sense of normalcy and that nobody would question. And just, that was
kind of my first, kind of opportunity to, to work with students experiencing those challenges. So. I can't
think of anything glaring. I was still I think pretty early and young in my profession. Um, so, there's still
days where I’m like, “You wanted me to be in there?” But, it worked out. But I think those are the things
I can, I can think of.
SS:
That’s good.
JR:
Yeah.
SS:
More experience.
JR:
More experience. It’s all, it’s all experience. Yes.
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SS:
Well, as we're wrapping-- winding down, I know you mentioned before that a lot of people that would
go to the Cross-Cultural Center were um--
JR:
Asian Pacific Islander.
SS:
Oh yeah. Asian Pacific Islanders.
JR:
<laughs> Yes.
SS:
I, a lot of questions are raised around like these cultural centers, like the Black Student Center and, the
Latinx Center and stuff like that. And should there be an Asian student center? Should there be a white
student center? What's your response to that?
JR:
<laughs> That's my response. <laughs> Um, I mean, I think I mentioned it before about the purpose of
these spaces. Everyone, every student should have access to support and resources on our campus. I do
not think inherently based on the setup of society, students at particular demographics are lacking
spaces where they see others like them.
SS:
Mm-hmm.
JR:
Like I said, things need to be, do, done well. You need to have the staffing. I think it's always going to be
met with some dissonance because there's gonna always be people who just don't get it. But the people
who are the ones traditionally, and I know there's people who may identify as the same within that
center and say, I don't think we should have, you know, separation or whatnot. But it depends where
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people are at on their identity development. And when you kind of go through identity development,
you get to the point where you're comfortable enough in your space and your skin and your whatever to
understand that everyone else is in a different space and that's okay. And that some students may be
okay with it and some students may really need that space to be successful. And again, if having a Black
Student Center allows one black man who goes to school here to have a physical space that he can go to
feel safe, then I think that's been successful because otherwise where would he find that here? Right. I
think the people who ask those questions about, why don't we have this? Why don't we have this? And
it's like, I don't-- there's gonna always be people who ask those questions and they don't have an answer
for it. They don't have anything to kind of back up, you know, you ask the question of, “Why do you
think we need that space?” And they don't have any, you know, there's no research to back up the
answers that they're hoping to get. It's just, they're there-- The questions are just being asked, I think to
kind of stir things up. But again, the caveat is: you don't wanna just do it to do it to check off boxes. You
need to do it as intentionally as possible. And I'm far from being an expert on how to implement that.
But if you don't have the resources and don't have the institutional support, you're only gonna be,
you're set up to fail.
SS:
Mm-hmm. Perfect. Great. Um, yeah, I like that answer. If it helps. It's worth it.
JR:
Yep. Mm-hmm.
SS:
To conclude connecting to that question, uh, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it
coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces?
JR:
I would imagine, I'll say Floyd specifically ‘cause he has been the longest-tenured, um, director in there
now. [Floyd] is probably been asked how he's gonna be-- What is the Cross-Cultural Center? How does
the Cross-Cultural Center kind of stand apart from the other identity centers? I think with the CrossCultural Center, although other centers talk about intersectionality and you know, and that sort of thing,
I think what the Cross-Cultural Center can really focus on is really that multiculturalism, how all the
different identities intersect and kind of can help to facilitate those conversations and understandings
and that sort of thing. I would imagine there's been conversations about-- do we have a space for, you
know, our APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American] students? Because that tends to be the space
that, that population tends to spend time.
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I think, there were conversations way back in the day where, ‘cause they're Kamalayan Alliance, I don't
know if it's a really big organization now, but Kamalayan Alliance was a massive student organization
back in the day, and that was primarily the students who made up the space in the center and some
people had issues with it. It's kind of like but this is not supposed to be just for Filipino students, but it's
like, who defines that? You know? It depends on who has a connection here and who feels connected.
So, I would imagine-- I know there's some campuses who have, I mean, tons of different affinity spaces
and identity centers. And I'm sure there's gonna be conversation about what, what is C3’s role in that?
Um, I don't know the answer I'm not privy to those conversations, but I'm sure the questions have come
up of what is the space for this type of physical and identity space in the midst of adding all these
different, identity spaces? Other campuses do it. It's just, I'm sure there's a lot of conversations about
what is the vision and mission and kind of, where's it gonna go, which can be exciting. Um, but I'm sure
there's also some pressure to be like, who are we? What is our, what is our mission here on campus?
But, um, the current leadership can figure it out. He's [Floyd Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center]
good. He's good.
SS:
Yeah, he is good.
JR:
He is good.
SR:
Anyways, thank you so much for coming here and—
JR:
This was Fun. <laughs>. I don’t know what I expected, But yeah.
SS:
Anyway, I’m gonna end the recording.
JR:
Okay.
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�
Dublin Core
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Transcripts
Description
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Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
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Ruiz, Jennie. Interview transcript April 7, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos.
This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos.
Creator
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Jennie Ruiz
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Seth Stanley
Date
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2023-04-07
Subject
The topic of the resource
California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Education, Higher
Human rights
Student success
Coverage
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San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Jennie Ruiz
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text
Identifier
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RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07_transcript
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5868aa45dc8ccb68d1cca5ba5329a1e3.pdf
4e18141c7775f6da6c315856ef7b7159
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Transcripts
Description
An account of the resource
Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
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Macchia, Jerry. Interview transcript, May 13, 1992.
Description
An account of the resource
Interview conducted May 12, 1992 by CSUSM Library Dean Marion Reid with Green Tiger Press owner/publisher Jerry Macchia. In his interview, Macchia speaks to his experience in taking over Green Tiger Press in 1986; his work before taking over Green Tiger Press with a forklift company in Michigan; shifting from a printing house to a publisher model; the Press's original owners, Harold and Sandra Darling and Harold Leigh; and the general history of the Press, its logo and name, and business operations. Macchia delves into the sale of Green Tiger Press to Simon & Schuster in detail, and discusses his involvement in leasing the San Marcos, California former Green Tiger building to California State University San Marcos, where the university's Foundation operations were housed, as well as overflow shelving for the library.
Creator
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Jerry Macchia
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Marion Reid
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1992-05-13
Subject
The topic of the resource
California State University San Marcos
California State University San Marcos. Foundation
California State University San Marcos. University Library
Green Tiger Press
Simon and Schuster (Inc.)
Coverage
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San Diego (Calif.)
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8c75101abfa91c6d35fa317a91448fb7.pdf
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Macchia, Jerry. Interview transcript (ADA), May 13, 1992.
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American Disability Act accessible transcript of interview conducted May 12, 1992 by CSUSM Library Dean Marion Reid with Green Tiger Press owner/publisher Jerry Macchia. In his interview, Macchia speaks to his experience in taking over Green Tiger Press in 1986; his work before taking over Green Tiger Press with a forklift company in Michigan; shifting from a printing house to a publisher model; the Press's original owners, Harold and Sandra Darling and Harold Leigh; and the general history of the Press, its logo and name, and business operations. Macchia delves into the sale of Green Tiger Press to Simon & Schuster in detail, and discusses his involvement in leasing the San Marcos, California former Green Tiger building to California State University San Marcos, where the university's Foundation operations were housed, as well as overflow shelving for the library.
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Jerry Macchia
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Marion Reid
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1992-05-13
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California State University San Marcos
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Green Tiger Press
Simon and Schuster (Inc.)
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Marion Reid
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Jerry Macchia
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6.0 Macchia, Jerry. Interview, May 13, 1992. SC060-01 00:56:55 SC060 Green Tiger Press collection CSUSM csusm Green Tiger Press Simon and Schuster (Inc.) San Marcos (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Foundation California State University San Marcos. University Library Jerry Macchia Marion Reid .wav MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/3a1e78779fdcbc6ca72de2300690f56c.wav Other audio English Interview conducted May 12, 1992 by CSUSM Library Dean Marion Reid with Green Tiger Press owner/publisher Jerry Macchia. In his interview, Macchia speaks to his experience in taking over Green Tiger Press in 1986 ; his work before taking over Green Tiger Press with a forklift company in Michigan ; shifting from a printing house to a publisher model ; the Press's original owners, Harold and Sandra Darling and Harold Leigh ; and the general history of the Press, its logo and name, and business operations. Macchia delves into the sale of Green Tiger Press to Simon & ; Schuster in detail, and discusses his involvement in leasing the San Marcos, California former Green Tiger building to California State University San Marcos, where the university's Foundation operations were housed, as well as overflow shelving for the library. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.685 --> 00:00:06.504 Publishing because you've done a lot of other things. Can you tell me how this came about? 00:00:06.504 --> 00:00:37.384 Well, very easily, I think Marion, um, I had been involved in heavy industry for all my life and worked for a large corporation back in the Midwest. And, in 1977, at that time I was a corporate vice president traveling the entire world for Clark Equipment Corporation. 00:00:37.384 --> 00:00:38.000 These are forklifts? 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Forklifts. 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 The forklift manufacturer? 00:00:40.000 --> 00:01:40.075 Yes, that's, that's correct. And, the dealership or the franchise, whichever you choose to call it for the forklift division, became available in San Diego. And having worked for a large corporation for twenty-some years, you kind of become immune to a lot of things, and I was at that stage where I was ready to blossom into something, do something I--because I was at the stage in my life where I felt I could go to a management meeting and stand in the corner on my head for two hours and nobody would know if I was there or not. So the dealership became available and I've always had somewhat of an entrepreneurial feeling. And I thought, well, this is an opportunity for me to do what I really wanted to do. So I went over and talked to the vice president of marketing, who was a good friend of mine, and he said, "If you want it, it's yours." I was on an airplane in a week and I bought the franchise in San Diego. 00:01:40.075 --> 00:01:41.495 So you came here from Michigan? 00:01:41.495 --> 00:02:36.224 I came here from Michigan, uh, took over the franchise in 1977 with a forklift division. Unfortunately six months after that, I was stricken with a spinal cord disease that was certainly unknown to me and unknown to anyone else. It was just something that just came out of the blue and apparently was there from birth and something triggered it. I woke up paralyzed one day, and I'd had this company for six months. And anyway, to make a long story short, because I don't wanna bore you with all that, I kept that company for four or five years and then the doctors decided it was best for me to retire and try to get my body back together because they said, "You're never gonna walk again," and all these kind of crazy things. 00:02:36.224 --> 00:03:48.675 So I sold the company. And I retired for two years and became bored to death, and planted tomatoes and rose bushes and, you know, swam every day and just tried to keep myself physically able to move and decided it was time to go back to work. And having been on both sides of the fence, having worked for someone and then having worked for myself, I decided the only thing for me was to work for myself, which meant I had to find a company. And I went to a cocktail party one Sunday afternoon, ran into a banker friend, and he said, I do happen to know of a company that's for sale. And unbeknownst to me, it wasn't for sale, it was about to go down the tube < ; laugh> ; , but I found that out very soon. But anyway, that's how I bought the Green Tiger. It, uh, it was told to me by a friend. I went there the next week. I had several meetings with the former owners and we came up with an arrangement that was compatible to both of us. And that's how I acquired the Green Tiger Press. 00:03:48.675 --> 00:03:55.014 So you and your family worked with this new business. How did you learn publishing? 00:03:55.014 --> 00:04:59.475 I never did learn it, and I'm not sure I know it today, to be honest about it. Uh, perhaps I'm a little unique in my thoughts about business. Most people feel that when you're in business, you're in a specialty, whatever that business is. If you're selling yogurt, you gotta be a specialty in yogurt. If you're selling, you know, JCPenney shoes, you gotta be a specialty in shoes or whatever. I don't happen to feel that way. I feel that the basics of business are the basics of business and they apply to all businesses. And therefore, I feel that you can run a forklift dealership or you can run a publishing company if you know the basics of running a business. And that's my philosophy, and that's what I did. I said, "I don't need to know the publishing business. I need to have people that know the publishing business." I need to know how to run the business. They need to know how to publish something and make it sell. And so that's the philosophy that I carried into the publishing company. 00:04:59.475 --> 00:05:10.005 Well, this seems to have worked well because between 1986 and 1990, you very much turned the company around. 00:05:10.005 --> 00:05:10.016 Yeah. 00:05:10.016 --> 00:05:16.485 And, and I don't know more than doubled the profits or the earnings. 00:05:16.485 --> 00:05:25.785 We did that. We did both. We doubled the sales and we doubled the earnings. We took the company out completely out of debt. And so it did work well. Very well-- 00:05:25.785 --> 00:05:32.932 But what kinds of things did you do that caused it to change it--well, first of all, did you keep the same people? 00:05:32.932 --> 00:08:14.000 There were a lot of--there were a lot of pluses at the Green Tiger when I bought it that I will not take credit for. That were there. But they were laying dormant. They were just laying there and nobody was doing anything with them. For example, the product line was wonderful. The name had already been established, which was also wonderful because the name was, was well known all over the world and a good name. It had carved a certain niche in the marketplace that was there, and they had good people, but they were not utilizing them. So all I really did was took advantage of what was--what was there. I did not create anything. I didn't do anything. I just said to myself, it's all right there. So all you've gotta do is use it. And, the other thing that was very important, and probably attributes a great deal to the sales activity, to the marketing, to the increase in sales was in the publishing business, at least in that one--and in most--you use independent sales reps. You, never have your own sales force unless you're a huge, huge corporation like Simon Houston. Most small publishing houses do it through independent representatives. And that's what we did. The Green Tiger had maybe sixty or sixty-five (sales reps) at the time that I acquired the company. The problem was that the sales reps were not really sales reps because they were not representing the line. 'cause they were not being paid commissions. When they did sell something, they never got paid for it. So as a result, they were a sales rep in name only. So one of the very first things I recognized, because if I have a somewhat of a marketing background, I recognize the first thing you gotta do is get somebody out to sell your product. It can be the best product in the world, but if you have no one to sell it, it's not gonna go any place. So we had a--we called all the sales reps to San Diego. We had a special sales meeting, and as they came in, we presented them with a back commission check. So they were all paid right up to that moment. They were paid for all the products that they had sold that they never got paid for. That tended, of course, to-- 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:15.845 Get their attention-- 00:08:15.845 --> 00:10:01.000 --boost their confidence in the future. We showed them what our plans were for the future. We showed them some new products that we had developed that they became very excited about. And as a result of that, we got, uh, I guess what you could say, as much attention as you can get from an independent rep, because they usually represent 30 or 35 companies. So we got their attention, I think, that way. And then what we did is, we decided that we really needed to double the sales force. So we ended up with a 160 sales reps rather than--well, we did better than double because we only had sixty-some--we ended up, when I sold the company to Simon & Schuster, we had over 160 and we went international, in addition to that. We went into England, we went into Australia, we went into Japan. We were about to go into Mexico, but we didn't. But we would have if we hadn't sold. So we did go international to some degree, and we would've gone further inter international because there was there was a lot of opportunity there. So that pretty much tells the story of doubling the, you know, the sales volume. We took advantage of the expertise that was there of some of the people, the editorial people, the--some of the marketing people were very good. We had telemarketing people that were good, but they were not being utilized. 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:22.294 And we literally, from that point, cleaned house. And then we got rid of all the people, all the things that we didn't need, and that were really just kind of consuming, if that's a good word, they were consuming a lot of the good things, and they were really draining profits, draining resources with no results. 00:10:22.294 --> 00:10:25.575 Would doing the actual printing be one of those? 00:10:25.575 --> 00:10:46.995 Well, doing printing was certainly one of 'em and that's one of the very first things I got rid of. Was we got rid of the printing press, we got rid of the printers. We jobbed all of that out. We became, in the true essence, we became a publisher rather than a printing house. Which made a tremendous, tremendous difference in overhead. 00:10:46.995 --> 00:10:53.000 I read in one of the articles that you had people vote on--in order to select the manuscript. 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:54.000 Yes. 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:55.664 Who voted? 00:10:55.664 --> 00:14:30.000 Well, that's a very unique situation also. And we were not the typical public publishing house because most publishers have an editorial staff and they have editors just like a newspaper. We did not, we had an editorial committee which was made up of employees. And that committee rotated, and we would've committees, we would've people serving on that committee's from accounting, for example. We would have people on that committee that could have been from the warehouse, that could have worked in the, let's say in the customer service group, could have worked in marketing, could have worked almost any place in the business. And we would put them on the editorial staff. And that was made up of as many as seven or eight people at a time. And I chairmanned that particular committee, myself, and my wife sat on that committee. Uh, my son sat on it, and we used to receive--and this, uh, this is somewhat of an astounding number, and I still have trouble with it--but we used to get in the mail unsolicited over two thousand manuscripts a year. Now that's a l--that, you know, that would fill this room very easily. From floor to ceiling, and from wall to wall. And we of course could not read all of them. And we would read--we would scan/read as much as we possibly could. And the ones that we knew were not Green Tiger at all, because we had a certain image, we ha a certain niche, we knew what we were looking for all the time. And so probably 90% of them either went back to the person that submitted it or they just got thrown away. Uh, if someone sends something to you and requested to come back and they send you the postage, then you're obligated to send it back to them. If they just send it to you and say, please read my manuscript. if you're interested, let me know. Those we would just throw away. So what we would do is, as we had time, as people had time, as the employees had time that were on this committee, they would take manuscripts and they would read and they would just do that < ; inaudible> ; . They would throw 'em this way or throw 'em this way or throw 'em away or send them back. Or they would put 'em in a save pile. The save pile was then, you know, given to others on the committee. "I think this has got merit. Read it." So every night people would go home with stacks of manuscripts, and then we would have editorial meetings, and each person would say, "I think this has merit." And we'd end up with certain group, then we would all take those and read them, and then we would narrow those down. Then we'd get down to maybe fifteen or twenty, because we couldn't afford to publish any more than that in a year because publishing a book is very expensive. So we would then get down to a point where we would actually have to vote. And we did a secret ballot vote so that no one would influence the other party. And then after the vote was taken, we would publish it (the vote) and say, "Okay, we've got seven that wants this book. We've got three that says no, we got two that says yes, we got one that says doesn't care." You know? 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:31.225 Yeah. 00:14:31.225 --> 00:15:03.695 Those kind of things. Then we would get into a discussion stage about a particular book, and some would get scrapped and some would get maybe boosted up. And that's the way we selected what we were gonna print. And if it got to where it had to be a tiebreaker, I would usually be the tiebreaker. And we got to where we would publish twenty books a year in that fashion. And we did the same with note cards and calendars. 00:15:03.695 --> 00:15:11.825 So the manus--did the manuscripts include the calendars and the note cards or that was additional? Did you get the same kind of over the transom-- 00:15:11.825 --> 00:16:44.924 Well, we did get quite a few note card-things over the transom. We didn't get too many calendars. We pretty much did that ourselves. We knew what we wanted to do. Uh, note cards, we used to get a tremendous amount of the actual images. We didn't get the verses. We'd get the images, "can you use these images in your note card line?" We'd get a lot of that. And we used them. We used quite a few, but we, we did something that probably no other publisher's ever done and probably never will do. We figured that we could get, you know, more bang for the buck, so to speak, if you take images from the books that you've already published, and if the book is successful, you can use that same film and you can use the same image and it's all you have to do is put a verse with it and you've got an note card. So we--We just kind of thought we were a little smarter, I guess. Maybe we weren't, but we thought we were smart to do that because it saved us, and we--not only did it save us, but we were able to keep our card line fresh in that manner because we already had the images and then it's all we had to do was for someone sit down and very cleverly write a little verse to go with that. Or as you probably know, we published a lot of cards that were blank. And people could write their own image. They were all message, I should say. 00:16:44.924 --> 00:16:53.075 What can you tell me about the original publishers, the original owners of Green Tiger? I assume you, you met with them. 00:16:53.075 --> 00:16:54.830 Oh yeah. 00:16:54.830 --> 00:16:56.585 And there were three. 00:16:56.585 --> 00:17:04.733 There were three. What's that? < ; inaudible> ; then there were three, then there were two < ; laugh> ; . Anyway, there were three. Uh-- 00:17:04.733 --> 00:17:06.394 And Harold and Sandra Darling-- 00:17:06.394 --> 00:17:55.018 Harold and Sandra Darling were the, were the driving force of the editorial and the creative. And she still is in the publishing field and she's very successful. And so is he. And they now have a company called the Blue Lantern Studio. It's in San Diego. She is the author and the artist of the Carl series, the "Good Dog, Carl" series. I don't know if you know that book. Well, they did a whole series of Carl books now, She's done three or four of that book. We did the first one. And-- 00:17:55.018 --> 00:17:57.194 That's where I know it < ; inaudible> ; on the lift. 00:17:57.194 --> 00:18:38.434 Yeah. The Good Dog, Carl. And that's become very successful. And her whole series of that has become very successful. So, and now they have--they started this Blue Lantern Studio to assist other publishers as consultants and that kind of thing. They branched from that into, back in publishing and their now publishing their own books again. And I--and they are selling books to people like Farrar Strauss and people like Simon & Schuster. And so they're back on the road for recovery again. 00:18:38.434 --> 00:18:40.275 Well, Harold Lee. 00:18:40.275 --> 00:18:40.625 Harold Lee. 00:18:40.625 --> 00:18:42.983 What kind of function did he have? 00:18:42.983 --> 00:18:46.000 Well, Harold Lee, Harold Lee's function basically was the financial-- 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:47.694 Money. 00:18:47.694 --> 00:19:11.994 He was the money guy. He's the guy that had the money. Uh, he believed very strongly in their talent, which he certainly was correct. He believed in the ability to sell the product. So he did fund it, and he funded it to the tune of like 80 or 85% as I remember the numbers. 00:19:11.994 --> 00:19:17.545 Okay, so back in 1970, he contributed that. And had they had a bookstore, or? 00:19:17.545 --> 00:19:44.454 There's--there's somewhat of a, of a blank in my mind about that, Marion. They had, they started, as I understand it, with a card line. No, that's not correct. They started, I believe, with what was called the Unicorn Theater. 00:19:44.454 --> 00:19:46.275 Okay. 00:19:46.275 --> 00:22:48.674 Which was a small little theater in La Jolla that they rented, and they served European foreign teas, cookies and things of that nature. And they showed European films, and they gathered quite a following. And this was back in the, like you say in the seventies. They gathered quite a following. And, I understand it was--I've never been there and didn't know anything about it, of course. And never seen it. But I understand it was quite unique. And what they did was very unique. And they'd had people coming there every night to watch these foreign films, and they would drink foreign coffees and foreign teas and that kind of thing. And they branched out from that, I believe, to the card company. And then they branched into a company, I believe it was called the Mithras, I think it was the Mithras Book company or something like that, up in, I think it was up in the Hillcrest area. And they started being a book publisher. And so they started publishing books and only a couple. And they started, as you know, with the old and antiquarian-style books. And they used, for the most part, they used public domain material. But they did gather a few artists and authors that were more current that they needed to pay royalties to. And they started publishing in that manner, and they did quite well. And, I don't really know what happened to them financially. I really can't respond to that too well, except that in 1986, they were pretty well down and out and ready to close the doors. And that's when I was told about this company. And that's when I contacted the Darlings and with Mr. Lee and I had meetings with them. They had a consultant at that time running their company. They were not running it. They were, they were doing their little creative thing. Unfortunately, Harold Lee and the Darlings physically, verbally parted ways. They became, what you might even say bitter enemies. And he went his way and picked up his toys and went home. And they stayed and tried to run the business, and he just withdrew himself from it entirely. And he did not, of course, would not fund any more money to it. Uh, as a result, it just went downhill, downhill, downhill. They didn't pay commissions, they didn't pay salesmen. They, as I understand, some of the staff, they did not make payroll. Some of the people left, some of that were very loyal, stayed. And that's kind of when I entered the picture. 00:22:48.674 --> 00:22:50.479 Oh, I'll turn the tape over. Oh, this is fine. 00:22:50.479 --> 00:22:57.993 But I don't mean to ramble, but some of these things come into my head. I'm sure you're not gonna use all this material, but-- 00:22:57.993 --> 00:23:01.214 Oh, we'll use what you choose < ; laugh> ; 00:23:01.214 --> 00:23:05.785 And what you choose, because I think that it should be a joint effort here to make it what you want. 00:23:05.785 --> 00:23:12.000 With the logo. I read something that indicated that the logo was somehow related possibly to the Detroit Tigers. 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.535 Yes. 00:23:13.535 --> 00:23:18.184 The logo being a big Tiger head and then green-- 00:23:18.184 --> 00:23:20.000 Well, that's not the logo, that's the name. 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.934 Oh, that's the, okay. 00:23:21.934 --> 00:23:23.625 The name Green Tiger. 00:23:23.625 --> 00:23:24.875 Okay. 00:23:24.875 --> 00:24:38.000 And Marion, I'm not gonna swear that this is true because I don't know and it's always been a mystique because I could never get anybody to tell me the truth. And I shouldn't say the truth. I could never get anybody to really tell me where it really did come from. Because everybody I talked to said, I don't know if this is for sure, but this is what we think. This is what we heard. And the predominant story was, and is to this day, that Harold Darling, who was the founder with his wife Sandra, was and still is a very avid baseball fan. My understanding is that his favorite team at that time was the Detroit Tigers. And I was born and raised in Michigan, which was only a few miles from Detroit. And I was a Detroit Tiger fan. He is a little bit younger than I, but I don't ever remember the Detroit Tigers wearing green and white striped uniforms. But I was told that they did. Now, whether they did or not I can't say, but at any rate, I was told that that's where he came up with the name Green Tiger. 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:39.424 Okay. Okay. 00:24:39.424 --> 00:24:58.000 And from that point on, it was called the Green Tiger Press. And they developed the logo was developed, I believe, by a man by the name of Richardson. It was called a Richardson Tiger. And it was green and White tiger. And that's where that logo came from. Which you've probably what you've seen on his catalog. 00:24:58.000 --> 00:24:59.755 Yeah, on catalogs, okay. 00:24:59.755 --> 00:25:12.535 And so I adopted that as our corporate logo when I acquired the company. And I just said, I think this ought to be the corporate logo. So I copyrighted it and had it as our corporate identity. 00:25:12.535 --> 00:25:22.829 Now, I understand that the Green Tiger Press had not only the printing presses back when the Days had it--the Darlings-- 00:25:22.829 --> 00:25:23.973 Darlings. 00:25:23.973 --> 00:25:31.345 Darlings. But it also had antiques. And did they have a children's book collection as well? 00:25:31.345 --> 00:25:34.674 Yes. They had a very, very large children's book collection. 00:25:34.674 --> 00:25:35.000 What kind of antiques-- 00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:36.000 Very old-- 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.000 --do they have? 00:25:37.000 --> 00:26:35.000 Well, let's take them one at a time. The book collection, Harold Darling is a collector. By nature, I mean, that's his--that's just him. He's a collector. He collects everything. He has a great, great fondness for children's books. And when this started in his life, I don't know, but he collected children's books for many, many, many, many years, and still does to this day. He probably has the largest, most valuable children's book library in the city of San Diego. Maybe in the entire world for all I know. The last count I knew he had well over 5,000 volumes. And these will run the gamut from, you know, you name it, Wizard of Oz all the way on up to whatever you want to talk about. And, uh, original titles. And he just acquired them from all over the world. 00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:36.021 And he still has them? 00:26:36.021 --> 00:28:03.384 And he still has them. That's correct. He still has them. Now, that was an asset of the Green Tiger. However, the library being really his, he collected it, and part of his contribution to the Green Tiger was to give that to the Green Tiger as, as a monetary contribution. And it was to be used to take material from that library, and they redid many of those old books that were in the public domain. You go back to Little Red Riding Hood, for example, if that's over fifty years old and he had the original, they would redo that book. Or they would take images and make note cards from those old books. Uh, in the negotiations, we structured it so that the library really would go back to him because it really was his, and it was more, let's say, it just meant more to him than it meant to me. I looked at my role in the Green Tiger as a business venture, and although I had a great love for books also, but--and still do--but not like his. And so the really--the library should have gone back to him, and that's where it did go. And he has it today. 00:28:03.384 --> 00:28:05.958 Did the antiques come with the press? 00:28:05.958 --> 00:29:05.714 The antiques were--you're talking about tangible physical furniture type antiques, and there were many of them at the Green Tiger Press, and they all stayed with the Green Tiger press. When I sold the company to Simon & Schuster, many of them went to Simon & Schuster. The ones that they chose that they wanted, the ones they did not want, I retained, and I still have some of them today. We did call the Darlings and tell them what was left there, and if they had any fondness, they wanted something, some sentimental value, to come and take them. And they did. There were a lot of old things that were there and that I felt should have been in their hands rather than in mine. And there were some lots of signs that she had painted and she'd, you know, hand drawn, and there were some old, old cabinets and old antique pieces that they wanted, that they took. 00:29:05.714 --> 00:29:09.484 How did you come to move to San Marcos? To move the company to San Marcos? 00:29:09.484 --> 00:29:16.000 Well, I don't know if you know where we were located or not, or downtown-- 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:17.000 C and India. 00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:19.234 Yeah. Right next to the trolley. 00:29:19.234 --> 00:29:20.000 Next to the trolley. 00:29:20.000 --> 00:30:24.000 Yes. The trolley--well, actually the trolley started on Ketner and C, and India was the next corner. And we were on the corner of C and India. Well then when the renovation of downtown started, they decided to build that huge great American Plaza building on the corner of Ketner and Broadway. As a result of that, the trolley station had to be moved a block eastward, and as a result, trolley station then ended up right opposite our building. Which forced us literally to completely turn around our entire operation. We couldn't use the side doors. We couldn't because the tracks were there and they put, you know, the stations there and everything. So we literally had to do a lot of things. They were chewing up the sidewalks. The big Shapery building went up. Have you been downtown? 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.974 Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; . Yes. 00:30:25.974 --> 00:30:41.000 So, you know. The big Shapery building went up. And in the meantime, after I acquired the company, it was owned by an elderly Chinese family. And-- 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.000 The building was? 00:30:43.000 --> 00:32:29.000 The building was. And unbeknownst to me--and this is my own error--and I have no one to blame, but myself, I did not look at the lease thoroughly enough. I read the lease, but I didn't look at the bottom line. And the bottom line, there were no signatures. Meaning that the former owners never signed it. So--and there was a first option to buy the building. Well the option was valid--or it was voided because it was never signed. So I lost the opportunity to buy the building, which I would've done, but I lost that opportunity because it was not signed. And so the YMCA, which was right on the corner of Broadway and India, they, at that time, their mode was to buy that entire block. They wanted the entire block. And their purpose was, was well-founded. They wanted to build a high rise hotel, to take care of servicemen and their families and that kind of thing. So they wanted that, that Green Tiger building very badly. So they ended up buying it from this--from the elderly Chinese man that owned it. And so we entered into a lease with the YMCA. Well then the renovation of downtown started. And all these buildings, these highrise buildings were going up all around us. I mean, literally around us. Front, back at each side. Trolley was here, the big highrise here, big highrise here, another big highrise here, and then this big brand new great American Plaza going right across the street. Trolley going underneath. The sidewalks were being torn up. The jackhammers were going every day. The pile drivers were going every day. It was absolutely, it was terrible. 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:31.000 Constant hassle. 00:32:31.000 --> 00:34:20.844 Constant. It was awful. We lost all our parking facilities. We lost our water every day. We lost our electricity every day. Our computer went out every day. It was just, it was just godawful. And as a result of that, I just said, I've gotta get us out of here. And living in North County, I naturally wanted to, to move to North County. And maybe that was a selfish motive on my part. Uh, I don't know. But with my handicap, driving to San Diego every day was certainly not easy. And because that was an hour and 15 minutes every day and every night. And that was not an easy thing. And no place to park. I had a handicapped parking place that I negotiated with the city, and then they finally tore it apart by--because they even tore the sidewalk up, you know? So I had no place to park my car. It was awful. Anyway, make a long story short, I found this building and--I looked and looked and looked and looked--and I found this building in San Marcos. That was the building that we're talking about. And, it was just a shell. There was no interior at all. It was just a shell. And the man that had--that developed that whole business park went into bankruptcy. And as a result of that, that building was foreclosed on as well as others in there. And so I negotiated a purchase for that building. And fortunately, like I say, it was not built out inside, so we were able to design it ourselves. So we designed the entire inside of the building ; the upstairs, downstairs. And we bought the building. My wife and I bought it independent of the Green Tiger, and we leased it back to the Green Tiger. 00:34:20.844 --> 00:34:25.000 So what functions did you put on the two different levels? 00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:51.934 Okay. The, the upstairs level was all office. Accounting was upstairs, the computer systems were all upstairs. The receivables, you know, all of the accounting functions, the editorial functions were upstairs. The sales functions, marketing functions were upstairs. Customer service was upstairs. The mail room was upstairs. 00:34:51.934 --> 00:34:54.614 So how many people had-- 00:34:54.614 --> 00:35:15.000 We had that pared down when we moved, we had it paired down to thirty-five, I think. In that, from that area, the balance, um, was all warehouse functions done in the warehouse. And, warehouse: we had racking, of course, from floor to ceiling and all our inventory-- 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:16.000 In the warehouse. 00:35:16.000 --> 00:36:32.065 In the warehouse, Proper. We did all our receiving, did all our shipping, all our warehousing, we did all of our quality control. We did all of our manufacturing. We did some manufacturing of cards. We built--we made all our own cards, except print. We didn't print them, but the hand-tipped cards, I don't know if you recall those or not, where you would just get a blank card that would open up like so, and on the inside would be a hand-glued image. Those were called hand-tipped cards. And we had a group of Thai ladies from Thailand, and we had six or seven of them. And they did all the quality control, and they did all the hand-tipped cards. And the quality control, they literally would go through every page of every book and we would not put a book in inventory that had a blemish, a nick in the corner--it was very, very strict on quality control. And that was one of the things that the Green Tiger image was excellent. And it was there when I bought it, and we did not let that go down, that state. 00:36:32.065 --> 00:36:42.000 What heavy equipment did you have it--on the first level? There's some heavy duty electrical outlets there. 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:49.094 Heavy duty, well, we had our computer, for one, which was a large mainframe computer. 00:36:49.094 --> 00:36:50.735 But on downstairs-- 00:36:50.735 --> 00:36:52.000 Oh, downstairs. In the warehouse. 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.000 Yeah. 00:36:53.000 --> 00:37:00.804 In the warehouse we had all the racks and they're heavy duty, of course, because they went from floor to ceiling. 00:37:00.804 --> 00:37:03.435 And those had books and paper. Books on them. 00:37:03.435 --> 00:37:05.000 Books. All books. No paper because we didn't do any printing. 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:06.000 Okay. 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:10.000 Um, occasionally we'd buy paper, but, but, but very rarely-- 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:12.114 Stock of cards, group of cards-- 00:37:12.114 --> 00:37:17.000 All the cards. All the cards. All the books. Finished product now we're talking about. 00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000 Yeah. Right. 00:37:18.000 --> 00:38:04.000 Uh, always boxed, very heavy. So with the racks were heavy and, and loaded, of course, they were very heavy. We had lift trucks. We had a, what was called a shrink wrap machine, which was over backed in behind the staircase. And we had the shipping department, which was consisted of a lot of heavy, you know, heavy tables and things that nature ; scales, automatic scales, that type of thing. Nothing extremely heavy. And the computers, like I say, were upstairs. And then we had a large, that large huge carousel. I don't know if you ever saw that. 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:05.000 I did. 00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:06.000 You did see that? 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:07.000 Yes. 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:20.000 Yeah. Well, we had that and I--beyond this, of course, I was--I was hoping that you could find a use for that, because it was so beautiful, I thought, but you couldn't. And I still have it, so-- 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:21.000 Uh-huh good. 00:38:21.000 --> 00:39:00.074 We didn't, we just couldn't let it go. We still got it because it was--we designed it and we built it. We still have it. But there wasn't anything any heavier than that upstairs, except we had an old antique press that was probably--probably close to a hundred years old or older. Manual operated press with a great big huge wheel that was tremendously heavy. That was upstairs. And we had some old antique church pews and things of that nature upstairs. And, uh, nothing really heavy. Nothing beyond the press. 00:39:00.074 --> 00:39:06.000 How did you decide to sell to Simon & Schuster when you did? 00:39:06.000 --> 00:43:18.494 Well, that's an interesting, a very interesting story, Marion. I really did not have the company for sale. The company was not for sale. I felt like we had a long ways to go before we were ready to try to sell the company. And besides, we were having fun and I didn't really want to sell it. There were days that I wanted to sell it because of, basically because of my disability, because it was very hard for me some days. And, especially when we were downtown, it was extremely hard. But as I say, the company was not for sale. And one day, I guess it was in '89, might've been latter part of '88, I had a call from Simon & Schuster, and it was from the Vice President of Acquisitions from Simon & Schuster. And I don't know if you know much about the Simon & Schuster Company or not, but anyway, they are the largest publisher in the world. Book publisher in the world. They grew to be that way by a lot of acquisitions. They bought a lot of companies, although they were a large publisher to begin with. They're owned by Paramount Studios in Hollywood. And Paramount, I'm sure you know, with what Paramount owns, and they own about everything you see on television practically. And they own Simon & Schuster. Well, anyway, the vice president called me and just said that they have been looking over my shoulder for four years, and I didn't know that, of course. And they said, we like what we see, and we'd like to come out and talk to you about a possible purchase. And naturally, I was taken aback by that. And I just said, "Well, I'm really not interested in-- not in the selling mode right now. And, you know, maybe a year from now or two." And they said, well, that's fine, you know, but we're in San Diego often, and, you know, could we get acquainted and could we maybe have dinner or whatever. Well, one thing led to another, and one thing led to another. And after probably eight or nine or ten dinners, we were pretty well-acquainted. Marvelous company, uh, marvelous people and wonderful people to do business with. And, it reached a point where they just wanted the company really bad. And I guess that I had to make a business decision, and the business decision said, sell it. And so that's what I did. And, I think in the long run, I made the right decision because I think it would've--well, timing wise, it certainly was right. And I had no magic, you know, I didn't have any magic ball to look into or anything. I didn't know the recession was coming, but from a timing point of view, it was a good time. And I think from a health point of view was a good time because it was harder for me every day. And I don't think that--I don't think we could have gotten an offer like we did from anyone else for a long time. And I can't think of a better company that could have it. And because they're doing well with it. They, they've carried on, I think is as much of the Green Tiger image is as could be expected in a large corporation. Because a lot of it, a lot of the little things got lost. Uh, but everything, I know that it's being carried on pretty much the way it was. 00:43:18.494 --> 00:43:30.835 I'm gonna change the tape again. Okay, now. Well, what do you know about what's happened to the employees who worked for you for Green Tiger? 00:43:30.835 --> 00:44:15.000 Quite a bit actually. I could probably give you names of everyone that I, but I won't do that. But, there were four employees that I recommended to Simon & Schuster that they hire, because their intent was to move the company to New York, which they did. And I knew that the Green Tiger would lose all its image if some of the people didn't go. So I recommended four people. They interviewed all four people, and for various reasons, only one decided to go. 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:16.295 But one did. 00:44:16.295 --> 00:46:49.764 But one did. And probably the most important one, the sales manager, a young lady, uh, twenty-seven, twenty-eight years old. Young lady, Rita Eggers is her name. And she's a very high energy girl and very bright girl, knows the publishing business very, very well. Uh, she know--knew how to put on trade shows. She took care of all the reps. She served on the editorial staff. She did a little bit of everything. And if she needed to go down and wrap the pack and the shipping department, she would do that. I mean, she was that type of person. So they got a very good employee with her. And I understand she since has had a promotion and she's doing quite well. She's running the Green Tiger division, as well as a couple of other smaller divisions that are associated with children's books. So she's doing well. And I think they did well by hiring her. The others, the other three that I recommended for their own whatever personal reasons, just didn't want to move to New York or whatever they were. I don't know that. The others, um, one of them who was kind of my general manager, went to work for Hardcore Brace downtown in San Diego. The controller still works with me. And, the most of the people in the warehouse kind of scattered and they all landed on their feet because they were all young people. They were all thirty-five or less. There was two elderly gentlemen, that I understand, did--they did both get jobs, out, I think even better for them because they both lived out in the East County so they didn't have to drive down that way. And the Thai ladies, I understand some of them went back to Thailand. I understand one of 'em went to Los Angeles and works now with a relative up there. And then I think a couple of them, from what I heard, went to work in Thai restaurants. So, they're going to school in addition to that. So I think most, for the most part, um, everybody just landed on their feet and came out fine. 00:46:49.764 --> 00:47:04.804 You mentioned before we started the tape that the card portion of the business did not, well, Simon & Schuster bought it, but didn't do anything with it for a while. What has happened to it? Where did it go? 00:47:04.804 --> 00:47:59.954 Well, they decided, I think after a few months that they did not want the card business. They'd never been in it. And they decided, you know, why should we do this? It's small, it's really not worth their--they're a billion-dollar corporation, so why mess around with a little three or $400,000 card business? And, so they just left it all with me. They left it in the building and they left all the inventory there. They left everything to do with the cards, and they put it up for sale. And it took a little longer, I believe, than what they had anticipated to sell it. But they finally sold it to a company in Santa Barbara, a young company--a young couple. Husband, wife--and I'm sorry. I can't, I just can't think of their names. 00:47:59.954 --> 00:48:03.000 So did you then send, ship the things--stock to them? 00:48:03.000 --> 00:49:32.114 Oh yeah. Oh yes. In fact, I was instrumental in helping sell the company. I worked with Simon & Schuster very closely on it. I took the people to the building. I showed 'em the inventory, showed 'em the film. Showed 'em the catalogs, you know, counseled them with everything that I knew about it. And they ended up then negotiating with Simon & Schuster. And they ended up buying the company. And then we helped them get everything shipped and moved. And it's there. And I understand that they just came out with their first line, I think. I think in fact, I believe it's this month. Come to think about it, it's May. And, I think they'll do well with it. I think they made a good purchase. I don't know what kind of whether--I don't know anything about the economics, so I don't know what that means, but knowing Simon & Schuster, I'm sure it was a fair transaction. And, these people were in the card business and they were very enthusiastic, and I think they'll do well with it. They were Green Tiger fans, and that's how they found out about it. So they had a lot of the books at home with, for their kids, and they had a lot of cards. And so they were kind of in that niche that buys Gold Tiger so they knew a little bit about it, and so I think they'll do fine. 00:49:32.114 --> 00:49:44.000 How long did it take to vacate the building itself? I assume Simon & Schuster didn't buy everything inside like the racks. I don't know, did they? No. 00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:48.775 No, no. Oh, yes! They did buy the racks. Yes. I'm sorry. Sure. They did. Yes., they bought the racks. 00:49:48.775 --> 00:49:51.114 So all of that was literally shipped to New York? 00:49:51.114 --> 00:51:12.914 All of it was shipped to New York. They--they bought the company in December of 1990. By March, by the end of March, everything that they wanted, with the exception of the cards, was gone. The racks, everything. We--well, one exception, the lift truck stayed until the cards because we needed the lift truck to load and everything. So the cards, when once the cards were shipped and everything was gone, then we sent the lift truck to New York. And that took to I believe October. Uh, so Simon & Schuster literally rented the building from me for almost a year. For close to a year. They rented--I shouldn't say the building, they rented partial. You know, I just, it was square done with a square footage thing, and they rented just enough square feet to keep the cards there. And there was some, there's some machinery to do with the cards, but just little things. And, so we rented that portion and then the building sat until we rented it to the university. 00:51:12.914 --> 00:51:16.255 And how, how did that happen? I know you-- 00:51:16.255 --> 00:51:16.755 The university-- 00:51:16.755 --> 00:51:21.454 You and Dick Rush got together and talked about this. And eventually the foundation has leased it. 00:51:21.454 --> 00:52:43.414 Yes. The Foundation actually leased it from me. Yes. And not the university, but the foundation. Uh, the way it really happened, Marion, I have a good friend that's on your board. In fact, I have two good friends that's on the board, the foundation board. But Bill Daniels and Tony < ; inaudible> ; , and Tony just mentioned to me one day that he would--that he had come out of a board meeting. They were looking for more facilities. And one was--I think he said something to do with books or warehousing catalogs. He didn't know. But he just said, "I think your building would fit them very nicely." And I always sat in my office and I'd look at up, and I could see the university right from my window. And I could say to my myself, gee, that they--they ought to use this. They need this building for something, you know, surely they've missed something up there, < ; laugh> ; . So anyway, I called Dick. He (Tony) told me, gave me name, a number, and he said, "Call Dick and talk to him." And so I did. And my wife and I went out and met Dick for lunch. Took him to the building and he just thought it was perfect for what he wanted. And then he--I think he had a few hurdles to cross, as you can, as you know-- 00:52:43.414 --> 00:52:44.565 We're a state agency. 00:52:44.565 --> 00:53:27.344 Yeah. He said, "I'll get back to you." And I said, "Okay, Dick, when will that be?" And he said, "Well, you're dealing with the state." And, you know, it took a few months. But anyway, then he got over the hurdles and they decided the best way was to lease it to the foundation, not to the university. And then he turned it over to Pat Parris. And I dealt with Pat, who was a wonderful person. And she has a wonderful staff also. And so I worked with Pat and then we got--we finally got it done. And then we had--we went through the hurdle of the god-ever-loving fire marshal, the State Fire Marshal. You probably know that whole story. 00:53:27.344 --> 00:53:29.085 Oh yes, I know--I know some of it. < ; Laugh> ; 00:53:29.085 --> 00:53:44.855 So we finally did that. And then they said, well, you gotta put in some doors and you gotta do this, and you gotta do that. And you probably know all about that too. So we put in those two new doors in the front, and then we just finished putting two new doors in the back. And I--in fact, I hope they're done. Do you know, are they? 00:53:44.855 --> 00:53:46.414 I don't know. 00:53:46.414 --> 00:53:57.264 I hope they are, they were supposed to have been done, I think last week. But anyway, all that got finished and I think you guys took the building over in January. 00:53:57.264 --> 00:54:02.324 Yes. We had computer equipment coming for the library the week of January 6th. 00:54:02.324 --> 00:54:03.324 I remember that. 00:54:03.324 --> 00:54:08.000 Yeah. And Pat was very concerned about it right before Christmas. 00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:11.436 Because she knew she had to have a place to put those computers. 00:54:11.436 --> 00:54:20.655 Right. And it turned out they sent them to us, to our current location, and they sent them early. So we stacked them up when somebody went away on Christmas vacation. 00:54:20.655 --> 00:54:22.295 Oh, I didn't know that. 00:54:22.295 --> 00:54:26.000 And they were already there, so that Pat had an extra week. So it just worked. 00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:28.875 Worked out. 00:54:28.875 --> 00:54:35.934 Yeah. Because we had computer installation on the 14th. The morning of the 14th. And training on the afternoon. 00:54:35.934 --> 00:54:52.264 Yes. Because I was in the building. In fact, I was there. I don't even know why I was out there. I was there for something. I guess it had to do something with the doors or something. Because we had to put that one door in the base, in the warehouse on the side. By the steps. 00:54:52.264 --> 00:54:53.635 Right, right. 00:54:53.635 --> 00:55:02.684 And I don't know what I was there for, but anyway, I just happened to go upstairs and everybody was up there in the training program. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. Well. 00:55:02.684 --> 00:55:05.514 Well, I thank you very much for-- 00:55:05.514 --> 00:55:06.494 Did we cover everything? 00:55:06.494 --> 00:55:14.655 --everything. < ; inaudible> ; , I think we have been through all of the questions. Is there anything else you'd like you ask to add? 00:55:14.655 --> 00:55:45.000 Uh, the only thing I would add, Marion, is that I've done on, I've been in business--well, I'm 62 years old, let's put it that way. And I've been in business a long time, and I've met people all over the world and I've done business with people all over the world and all I can--what I'd like to say is, and I don't know what you wanna do with this, or maybe nothing, but I'd like to just say that I've never met a finer group of people than what you have. 00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:46.000 Oh, thank you. 00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:54.824 They really have been wonderful, everybody. This one fellow that, was involved with the fire marshal, Al. 00:55:54.824 --> 00:55:55.744 Al Amato. 00:55:55.744 --> 00:56:11.445 I'll tell you. He was wonderful. But of course, everyone has been. Pat and Dick and Bill Stacy and--we've had lunch a few times together--and all of them. And you're the most recent and you're not--you're wonderful too. 00:56:11.445 --> 00:56:13.744 < ; laugh> ; . Well, thank you very much. 00:56:13.744 --> 00:56:43.000 But really, I do mean that sincerely. It's been a real pleasure for me. Well, and I just hope that we can have a long--you know, I'm not a big founder, but I'm a founder, and I feel very proud of that. I feel proud of the fact that I'm associated with the university because I think it was desperately needed, and it's gonna be more needed in the future, I feel. And I just hope that nothing, God forbid, I hope nothing happens that slows the progress. 00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:44.614 Well, we appreciate your support. 00:56:44.614 --> 00:56:51.335 Well you've got it. And I'm out beating bushes for Dick right now. In fact, that, that's one of the reasons I was in here today. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright. audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are unknown. 
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Macchia, Jerry. Interview, May 13, 1992.
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Interview conducted May 12, 1992 by CSUSM Library Dean Marion Reid with Green Tiger Press owner/publisher Jerry Macchia. In his interview, Macchia speaks to his experience in taking over Green Tiger Press in 1986; his work before taking over Green Tiger Press with a forklift company in Michigan; shifting from a printing house to a publisher model; the Press's original owners, Harold and Sandra Darling and Harold Leigh; and the general history of the Press, its logo and name, and business operations. Macchia delves into the sale of Green Tiger Press to Simon & Schuster in detail, and discusses his involvement in leasing the San Marcos, California former Green Tiger building to California State University San Marcos, where the university's Foundation operations were housed, as well as overflow shelving for the library.
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SC060-01
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California State University San Marcos
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Green Tiger Press
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Simon and Schuster (Inc.)
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1992-05-13
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Jerry Macchia
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Marion Reid
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San Diego (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b7e2e7222d260ca5443d68b16165a3cd.pdf
906ec8914dc64d4d28d2752d91f3e08a
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Macchia, Jerry. Interview transcript, May 13, 1992.
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An account of the resource
Transcript of interview conducted May 12, 1992 by CSUSM Library Dean Marion Reid with Green Tiger Press owner/publisher Jerry Macchia. In his interview, Macchia speaks to his experience in taking over Green Tiger Press in 1986; his work before taking over Green Tiger Press with a forklift company in Michigan; shifting from a printing house to a publisher model; the Press's original owners, Harold and Sandra Darling and Harold Leigh; and the general history of the Press, its logo and name, and business operations. Macchia delves into the sale of Green Tiger Press to Simon & Schuster in detail, and discusses his involvement in leasing the San Marcos, California former Green Tiger building to California State University San Marcos, where the university's Foundation operations were housed, as well as overflow shelving for the library.
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Jerry Macchia
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Marion Reid
Sean Visintainer
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1992-05-13
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California State University San Marcos
California State University San Marcos. Foundation
California State University San Marcos. University Library
Green Tiger Press
Publishers and publishing -- California -- San Diego -- History
Simon and Schuster (Inc.)
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San Diego (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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SC060-01 MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13_transcript
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b180c3edcbc49ffa0dfcf47128e107e3.pdf
cd2ab238d19462ca59858d0d63ae7f4e
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Carr, Jim. Interview transcript, September 26, 2017.
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Jim Carr spent 24 years at California State University San Marcos working for the Distribution Services team and was instrumental in implementing the first barcoded inventory tracking system for the University. Jim discusses his time working for CSUSM as part of Distribution Services and how his education and background led to him this job.
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Jim Carr
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Judith Downie
Robert Sheehan
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2017-09-26
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Barcoding
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California State University San Marcos
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San Diego State University
Sustainability
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California State University San
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California State University San Marcos
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CarrJim_DownieJudith_2017-09-26_transcript
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CSUSM history
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Oral Histories
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Linda Kallas
Interviewee
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Joanne Tawfilis
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5.4 Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview October 31, 2022. SC027-052 01:11:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Military base closures ; United States. Army ; United States. Navy ; Muramid Arts Center (Oceanside, Calif.) ; Mural painting and decoration ; Bosnian Women's Initative ; Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 ; Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina ; International Atomic Energy Agency ; Unesco ; Art Miles Project Joanne Tawfilis Linda Kallas mp4 1.0:|18(13)|37(10)|52(10)|63(18)|75(9)|88(4)|102(6)|112(4)|126(7)|138(9)|149(7)|159(14)|169(10)|188(12)|198(5)|208(14)|218(3)|227(14)|242(9)|252(6)|268(6)|278(17)|287(9)|297(7)|310(8)|320(20)|330(11)|348(5)|359(6)|374(6)|384(15)|397(8)|408(13)|417(3)|428(8)|441(17)|451(5)|467(3)|476(18)|486(15)|496(11)|508(12)|519(5)|529(12)|540(11)|550(11)|559(5)|570(13)|579(12)|593(6)|607(11)|621(5)|630(4)|641(10)|655(13)|665(4)|676(5)|690(12)|701(4)|711(13)|728(15)|740(15)|749(7)|766(4)|776(13)|786(11)|798(10)|814(9)|825(13)|841(9)|854(16)|862(8)|953(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b2580fba038f13dc496911c1023b4dcf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Interview with Joanne Tawfilis by Linda Kallas, October 31, 2022. Linda Kallas ; Joanne Tawfilis 0 45 Early life and childhood Tawfilis talks about her early life, where she was born in New London, Connecticut and offers a brief introduction to her family. Family ; New London Connecticut ; Filipino ; Dad 0 90 Moving and living in California Tawfilis talks about her moving to California, as well as mentions how San Diego County is one her favorite places she has ever been to. It is here where she also discovered her sense of community through the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. San Diego ; 1971 ; travelling ; retirement ; moving ; Multicultural center ; Oceanside 0 240 Career as an artist Tawfilis talks about how she started her career in art, from doing illustrations with the U.S. Government, United Nations, and civilian sectors. Tawfilis's career included working at the Submarine School in Connecticut, the Navy and country's Bicentennial, and as an International Military Training Coordinator. Tawfilis also speaks to the impact of Chicano Park. Military ; United Nations ; San Diego ; Chicano Park ; Submarine School in Connecticut 0 597 International Work Tawfilis describes her time doing work both for the military and the United Nations. As part of her work with the military, Tawfilis did bas closure studies. Tawfilis was offered a job and moved to Germany, and from there had the opportunity to work in almost every European country doing base closures. Tawfilis also worked for the Vista Volunteer Program and then the United Nations. It is through these experiences that she learned other languages and honed her people skills. It is also through this opportunity that Tawfilis worked in countries going through turmoil and war, such as Somalia, and Cold War Germany, where she worked closely with the constant unrest around there. Military ; Travel ; United Nations ; Germany ; Austria ; Army ; Kettle Falls, Washington ; Europe ; Atomic Energy Agency ; United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi ; Sergeant Shriver ; Peace Corps ; Americorps ; Vista Volunteer Program ; Africa ; Somalia ; AIDS ; Gigiri ; War ; Germany ; Austria ; Cold war ; Berlin Wall ; Army Management Staff College 0 1077 Work with the United Nations Tawfilis talks about her time working with the United Nations, the conditions of U.N. employees that are local nationals, and briefly speaks about why she was car-napped. United Nations ; Vienna ; Austria ; Africa ; Kidnapping ; Bosnia 0 1211 Work in Bosnia / end of her career Tawfilis speaks about the end of her career, close to her retirement. Given a choice of working at the Pentagon or working in Bosnia, Tawfilis took a position as the Director of the Bosnian Women's Initiative (commonly known as the Widows of Srebrenica) in response to the Srebrenica massacre of six to seven thousand men. This choice led her to eventually work in an orphanage, where Tawfilis worked with children in creating art. Tawfilis mentions her TED talk "Painting Outside the Lines" where she goes into more detail on the project. Bosnia ; retirement ; Washington D.C ; Army ; Serbia ; Women ; murder ; TED Talk ; TED-X ; UCSD ; Orange Coast College ; Orphanage 0 1645 Artwork through the Orphanage Tawfilis describes her time working for the orphanage, and explains how working for the orphanage, led her to her passion for art through the children there. Tawfilis also began to work on murals honoring specific tragic events.
 ; 
 ; Orphanage ; Children ; Yesterday and Tomorrow ; Art ; Religion ; Bombings ; UN ; Connecticut ; Art Mile ; Avenida de Los Artistas ; Foulad 0 2129 The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center Tawfilis describes setting up the The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, which is the first mural museum in the world. She explains here how they came up with ideas for various murals. She also breifly describes how they are made, using objects such as PVC to make the murals in multiple dimensions. Tawfilis also mentions how their murals are located all over the world. Giza ; The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center ; Pyramid ; Egypt ; Oceanside ; Irvine ; Japan ; Murals ; International Decade for the Culture of Peace 0 2280 Art Miles Tawfilis talks about the art project referred to as "Art Miles" which is a series of murals that spans a long distance. Mural themes have included peace, unity, and women, and also tackle issues from every human and natural disaster. The project has also done murals on cultural creations such as sports and music. Tawfilis details some of the murals and what they represent, and speaks to mural making as a form of self improvement and healing, in response to their often tragic origins. Women ; Art Miles ; diasters ; Murals ; climate change ; Children’s Environmental Health Network ; Music ; Sports ; Japan ; Guinness Book of World Records ; United Arab Emirates ; NCAI ; Africa ; Native Americans ; Guiness Book of World Records 0 3036 Murals, continued Tawfilis talks about how the ideas of the murals spread, and how they are able to reach out following a tragic event and create a mural for that community, hoping for something that will mean a lot to these people, instead of payment. Tawfilis also talks about some of the logistics of running a non-profit that creates murals. non-profit ; emotion ; Creator ; non-governmental organizations 0 3283 Sprituality, people, and culture in the murals Tawfilis speaks to the importance of culture and representation -- especially of indigenous cultures in murals, and that the Muramid's global scope is vital to North San Diego County's fabric. Catholic ; Connecticut ; Mission ; Luiseno ; North County ; Indigenous communities ; Diversity 0 3433 Enslaved Africans and indigenous peoples Tawfilis gives a background of slavery post-civil war and a loophole that was used to continue to bring enslaved peoples into the United States. Tawfilis speaks to how in Oceanside, the gentrification and commercialization of the area is leading to the destruction of its natural beauty and history. Tawfilis mentions the Muramid's ties to UNESCO as a Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. Tawfilis also speaks of Mexican and Luiseño peoples, how similar their experiences are with the destruction of their local communities for the sake of tourism and advancement. Slavery ; Mobile, Alabama ; Africa ; History ; Mural ; Commercialization ; Oceanside ; UNESCO ; Center for Peace for all of California and Baja ; Mashantucket Pequots ; Mexicans ; Indigenous people ; Machu Pichu ; Egypt ; Valley Arts Center ; Luiseño 0 3834 Future initiatives 
 ; Tawfilis discusses her future plans which include writing books, finding a home for twelve miles of murals, and the Endangered Planet Foundation. History ; Murals ; Books ; Smithsonian ; Endangered Planet Foundation ; Cave Men ; Machu Pichu ; United States ; Expressing Emotion 0 4063 Final messages Tawfilis expresses her final thoughts, from acknowledging each other's differences in opinions, to never giving up on a goal like going to school. She also has one last moment to share her awards and how proud her father would be of her seeing her accomplishments. Opinions ; differences ; awards ; PhD ; Arlington National Cemetery ; Filipino ; North County 0 Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. 
 ; 
 ; Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Linda Kallas: Today is October 31, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Joanne Tawfilis as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you for joining me today, Joanne. Joanne Tawfilis: Thank you, Linda. Glad to be here. Kallas: It’s my pleasure. I’m going to give you some questions, and you’re going to answer them and to the best of your ability and we’ll just keep moving through the questions. Okay? Tawfilis: Okay, sounds good. Kallas: First of all, when and where were you born? Tawfilis: I was born in New London, Connecticut, and, um, a long time ago, (laughs) almost seventy-seven years. Kallas: And was your family an active part of any cultural communities where you grew up? Tawfilis: Actually, my family was one of the first Filipino American families in the town that I was born in. Um, we had a huge family, and then another family came and there was sort of a competition between the two families on, I think, who could have the most kids. Kallas: Oh! (chuckles) Tawfilis: And I think my dad won! (both Joanne and Linda laugh) Kallas: Um, so you didn’t grow up in North County. You moved here how many years ago? Tawfilis: Oh, it was—I moved here probably, um, in 1971, was when I first came to California. But then with my career I traveled all over the world, so I was back and forth on a regular basis. Uh, I had children and grandchildren here, and when I retired in the year 2000, I decided to settle here in paradise. (nods) Kallas: Nice. And how do you like living and working here since then? Tawfilis: Oh, I love San Diego County. Out of all the places I’ve ever been, I think that what I—I love the weather like everybody else, but it’s very multicultural, and, uh, makes life interesting that way. And grandchildren will always keep you where you are going to retire. Kallas: Um, do you feel like you’re part of the community? And do you have a support network? Tawfilis: I feel very much part of the community in many ways, but on―in some ways, no, because we’re—we’ve kind of discombobulated in this county where North County is kind of separated. But, I—my community is global, so it makes it a little bit interesting for me to try to be part of this community, despite the fact that I am, uh, running a multicultural center. Oceanside seems to be very focused on downtown and tourism, and, uh, I wanted to be here, even when I was downtown when we had our, um—it’s our studio and our center and our museum, the first mural museum in the world in Artists’ Alley. I—I thought we were really integrated into the community, but when—when I had to move out and come down here, it’s been a little different because we’re—we’re—we’re not considered you know neighborly, I think, is my—my feeling. We—we—we’re here. I love being part of being imbedded into the community, especially the indigenous community, because the Center was supposed to be focused on multiculturalism, with the focus on indigenous people. Kallas: Um, so prior to doing what you do now at the Mural Museum and the Art Miles, you had another whole career. Can you talk a little bit about that? Tawfilis: Yeah. I started out doing illustration work with the U.S. government, and when computers came out, they scared the heck out of me, being a non-technical person and being kind of a—I think, at that time, a very snobby artist (laughs), and then when people tell you what they want painted on, or drawn with specific directions, I had to question “Why, then, do you need me, if you’re not going to use my creative brain.” And the computer-generated art didn’t appeal to me because of that. Although now it’s grown into such a great variety of software programs, you can do almost anything, even with your own art. But as a young artist, I didn’t see it that way. So I worked for the military for most of my career in civil service, and then later on, combined my civil service career with the United Nations, and got to travel, a lot! Kallas: Um, so, some of the work—you want to talk about some of the work you did for the military, Civil Service department? Tawfilis: Yeah. After doing illustration, um, at the Submarine School in Connecticut, where we—where I was born, and my ex-husband was military, we traveled and that’s how I came—came to California. Um, and I worked really hard doing graphics here. Um, I rose in my career there to, to when the Bicentennial happened in, uh, 1975–76, the Navy and the country’s Bicentennial, and I got a little bit famous because I coordinated the whole military celebration down at the Broadway Pier , and things like that. And, then when, uh, uh, I went as far as I could, as far as a illustrator, was go—was my part of my career, and they started to do more and more graphics. I mean I worked at every military base in San Diego that you could think of. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then an opportunity came to become, uh, the first civilian and woman to be a, an international military training coordinator, and that’s how I got really involved with the international work, because the job was to be like a cultural, um, leader for the military people that came and their families, and setting up Friendship programs, and ex—not exchange programs, because these were, these were guys that were being trained on the equipment in the ships that we sold as part of the―what they call an international military exchange training program, I met and several others. So, I worked through all the bases doing that, and really loved, um, starting programs for the military and introducing them to American culture. And that was my real first experience, and getting international people to know the native cultures. And I did a lot of—I spent a lot of time down in San Diego, and Chicano Park, and I used to have the military, even the officers, lay down in the, the big, uh, like a pagoda―I’ve forgotten what you call it (chuckles), I think this is my senior moment―um, and look up to see the Inca and the Maya—Mayan civilization paintings, ‘cuz that’s where Chicano Park is sort of visualized and painted in amazing murals. And I did part of that on the bridge, the bridge stanchions that show how the Mexicans and the Spaniards came, and the farm workers came. And that was a lot of indigenous peoples from Mexico. And that got me interested. And then coming from Connecticut and New England where we had a lot of Native American tribes, a lot of international people ask about what happened to all the Indians in American culture? And a lot of—back then, a lot of international people only knew about cowboys and Indians, like most of us when we were growing up, you know, decades ago. And it also—it was very interesting to me because my minor in college was Native American Studies. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And that’s how I got introduced to it. But, you know, it was something that you think of academically, although it struck my heart because I was really angry at our educational system for not letting me know, among others, that where I grew up and lived most of my, you know, young adult life prior to college was Indian country. I mean, one of the thirteen colonies. And people don’t realize what kind of impact that had, has on people when you’re growing up. So, that affected my, my heart always. So, when I—in my career, I’ve always had that as a, I want to say, a big influence on what I’ve done to, to teach international people when I travel, both with the military and with the U.N. Kallas: Now, did the military send you to other countries as well? Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. I ended up—I started out doing, like I said, the international training stuff, but then I was on the base closure team, where my career went way up as far as getting higher promotions and better pay, and stuff like that. So I ended up, after doing base closures in most of the San Francisco Bay and Hawaii area, my territory was, I was one of twelve people that did the base closure studies. And then I had an opportunity—kind of as a fluke—to apply for an international job with the Army, and my supervisor and I both did it, um, as a—I don’t know, we just got a, a bug to say, “Oh, let’s see what happens if we apply to do what we’re doing here in the States, doing base closures.” And so, they offered her a job, and she turned it down. And they said “Oh well, the next person on the list is right in your office. Can we talk to her?” That was me! And so I ended up going to Germany. At the time I had been working for the Navy for over twenty years, in different positions like I said, from illustrator to management analyst, and working at foreign training and base closures. So then I ended up going to the Army in Germany, and that was, uh, right after, um, the Bicentennial had ended, and then I did a stint with—I took some time, and got, went on loan as a Vista volunteer, and went up to the Nespelem reservation in Colville, Kettle Falls area of Washington. I got really lucky cuz’ my hero was Chief Joseph (chuckles) and so I worked on that reservation in a parent aid program. But that’s another whole thing that maybe we could talk about later. Because going back to the military, I did this closing the bases in Europe and I became one of the heads of the base closure team there, and that’s how I got to travel to just about every European country there was. And, um, from there, I got recruited by the state department and through my federal military civilian job, went to work for the United Nations in, in Austria after the base closure job in Germany, that I went onward to, um, working on loan again. I went on loan from the Navy to the Army, from the Army to the International Atomic Energy Agency, and on loan again to the United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi. I mean there were jobs in between, but, and like I say that the stint I did at—I got to continue my career, even though I stopped working for the military for two years to work on, um, the Vista volunteer program. When Shriv—Sergeant Shriver started the Peace Corps, he also started the Vista volunteer program, which is now, I think, Americorps. So I was in that first round. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And then I went back to civil service and continued on, and onward to U.N. Kallas: And did they send you to, um, war torn countries, and where there was a lot of political unrest— Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. Kallas: —as a representative? Tawfilis: Yeah. When I went to, um—well, I could say my first stint overseas in Germany with the Army was when the wall came down. And I had just adopted two more children, and uh, I remember during that time the―when the wall came down, my kids were like, like—they were adopted from Mexico, and then—but they were Americans in a sense, so they were Mexican descent. And it was really interesting for them to learn German, so you see two little Mexicans speaking in German (chuckles). It was kind of cool. And, um, but the war torn part of it was―my job was because the war was over, the Cold War, and the wall came down, the government decided that’s why they wanted to close the bases because they didn’t need that anymore. We had so much military might invested in Germany because that was the actual front, that it made my job easy because the, the common sense of the economic support that they did for Europe, um, on the, well, it was called the front, made sense to start closing the bases. And so, I became a superstar, doing that, because I had people skills, so the generals that I worked for decided that it was great to have a woman civilian go give the commanding officers of the base the good news and the bad news that their base was going to be closed. And as a result of that, I was one of four women chosen to be, um, a member or take part in a study to decide whether civilians should become executive officers of military bases. So, they sent us to Army Management Staff College, and I was one of the four women that attended that. And so, the idea would be that I would become an executive officer of a military base so they could station military in the field. The problem with that is there’s no military that’s going to listen to a civilian as a boss. So, you can ask my son-in-law about that, ‘cuz he was Army. In fact, my daughter met him there in Germany. But, yeah, that was one. And then with the U.N., when I went to Africa, there’s all kinds of―I want to say―conflicts going on, including Somalia, Rwanda, during all that time, and so, yeah, I saw a lot. In fact, I was car-napped and my own personal safety was in danger there, not only from being exposed to so many people that were dying of AIDS, but because of the tribal—there’s like forty tribes in Nairobi alone and there were conflicts and a lot of cultural differences between the tribal people and a lot of, um, little―I want to say―mini wars going on and the political strife, and then of course, it was pretty bloody with Rwanda and then Somalia in that area. But I got to travel all over Africa, looking at—my job there was to consolidate the U.N. organizations in Nairobi and the base was called Gigiri, and, um, I got in trouble there, because I tried to support the local indigenous people with the financial area. So, if you want to talk about wars, and danger, and stuff like that, I think people think of shooting, you know, and bombs and stuff. But there’s other kind of wars, like economic ones. And I came up with this idea that civil service employees in international organizations should be cay—should be paid equally. But they have this system in the U.N. where local nationals are―have to go through a wage classification survey and they get the prevailing wage rate, whatever that country is. So, in other words, my secretary in Austria would get $3,000 a month, but my secretary in Nairobi would get $300 dollars a month. Kallas: Oh... Tawfilis: Yeah. And I just didn’t think that made sense, working with the U.N. So, it was kind of a battle there, and I think that was the biggest war for me, is trying to help the local nationals. And I did some―I want to say―out of the ordinary things, like promoting them when other people went out on mission they would hire people to come in and pay them exorbitant amounts of money, including me, because I, I was on a stipend on a daily basis, in addition to my very high salary. But the work was done by the local people. I think that happens everywhere, that the real worker bees don’t get recognized for the, all the work that they do, and they carry on the mission of whatever that country’s, you know, objectives are. And so, I think that’s one of the reasons I got car-napped, because I had a big mouth and I actually wrote a book about how to flatten the United Nations. So, they sent me back. I was on loan from the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria to Africa, and because I tried to help the local people, I think I wasn’t going to go much further, after ten years, you know, working for the U.N. So, that was my personal battle when you talk about wars, and dangerous things. I mean, when you get to the point where they don’t want you to talk―and it wasn’t the U.N. that did it―it was a person that probably wanted the job that I had―that arranged for this kidnapping or car-napping that I survived. So… Kallas: So, you also, um, had spent time in Bosnia during that— Tawfilis: Yeah, at the end of my career— Kallas: —that was after all the— Tawfilis: with—I was getting ready to retire and, uh, because I was on loan as a very high-ranked civilian, the only place they could put me would be the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and I didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. I’d been at the headquarters many times with my job with the Army. I did a lot of stuff for the Army, like I said. And I really didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. So, they gave me a choice of going to Bosnia and working with the widows at Srebrenica, at the end of the conflict in the Balkans between the―where Yugoslavia had broken up. And I went on an interview sponsored by the Clinton Foundation to be the Director of the Bosnian Women’s Initiative or what they—most people know as the Widows of Srebrenica, where at some point they gathered the Bosnian women together―and I should say the Bosnian families together―in their village called Srebrenica which was a safe haven. And unfortunately it wasn’t a very well protected safe haven, and on July tenth and eleventh in 197―uh, 1995, the Serbs came in and gave the people ten minutes to come outside, and they put the women on one side of the street, women and children under fourteen and old people, real old people, and then they put the men and boys on the other side and then they took all the women, put them on buses and sent them to a village in the mountains, in Tuzla. And the men disappeared. They found some mass graves. They found some bodies in a forest where they were―tried to run away, I guess, some of the men. And, but they never found the whole―I would say, whole group of the over six to seven thousand. They, they suspect―there’s a lot of theories, and a lot of books written about it. But my job was to work with the women and help them do economic development and to heal and to also help identify bodies and get all their data because they had no pictures of their families. They had, you know, all this stuff that they—they left with nothing. And then to try to help reconciliation between the three entities, and I ended up, you know, working my, my heart and my head off, because working with people who have lost everything and witnessed the destruction of their country and their families getting killed and murdered and their men disappearing, and these were mostly farm women that didn’t even know how to write their name. So, I think I worked harder in my life those three or four years that I was there doing everything from gathering information to help put the war crimes together because these people were still on the loose. And then throughout the years, the military would find them and capture the war crime perpetrators and bring them to the Hague and they were imprisoned, and some of them—I won’t name names—passed away in prison before they could be tried. But it was terrible trying to identify remains with the women. Maybe it would be just shreds of a shirt but they recognized their husbands. And then having all that emotional—I think I have a whole book of stories I could write about their suffering. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: But because of that, I was encouraged to go work in the orphanage and there three hundred fifty orphans. I have a TED talk online, TED-X from Orange Coast College. And, it was―it’s called “Painting Outside the Lines.” I also have one from UCSD “Stem to Steam” because I put the art part in there. But back to the Bosnian situation and I guess as the point of my career that changed my life that we were going to talk about, because when I saw what the children had gone through and I―they―they told me—you were getting— I was getting very depressed, and they said “you need to go work in this orphanage.” So, the three hundred fifty orphans from all three entities, but they had not found or located all families. So, some of the kids had no survivors. I understand that most of them they were able to place them years later. But while I was there, my―my, uh, free time, if you want to call it free time, was to go and work with these kids to do art. And then after about three months of just sketching and coloring and stuff, they asked if they could make a very big painting and I interpreted that as a mural. And so if you―you’ll hear on the TED talk, how we found bed sheets in a closet that were full of sort of darned holes and the―they explained to me that the young ladies in Europe learn how to sew, which we did away with here in the United States. But there they sew everything. So, when they pulled out the sheets, and they had all these little stitches, and some still had holes, I, when I asked them what the holes were about, they said “Well, this used to be a hospital, and it was bombed. So these were from the shells and the shrapnel that, that, you know, made holes in the walls and the bedding and the whole bit of the ugly hospital beds over there.” So, what I did was the Army had left a 10-gallon pan―pail of white flat, white wall paint and I, I had them sew two sheets together and I put masking tape on the back where I thought there were the least amount of holes and then I just painted. I put a whole bunch of newspaper, and in the morning it turned into a very stiff canvas! So, we had a canvas and the kids got very excited. Every time I think about their faces when they saw that, and then it was like “Oh, we’ve got to paint that whole thing?” You know… Kallas: So, that’s when your two careers intersected, so you kind of went back to— Tawfilis: Right. Kallas: roots, and— Tawfilis: And I got to do art, right? So, but what changed my life were the, the children and the oldest one was about eighteen and then they had a little eighteen or nineteen-month-old baby in there, and they divided the kids up into groups of five. And they took two older, mostly teens, and then three younger kids, so they could take care of each other, ‘cuz they only had five people running this whole orphanage. There was psychologist, and then the other four were caregivers, and they cooked for them, and made sure that they were, you know, trying to keep them busy. There were—I don’t even think they had formal education for them, because there was nothing. And they were just being protected and fed, and trying—and I think doing the art was a real important thing in their lives. So, how my life changed was, the kids started—I said “you have to decide what you want to paint.” So, what they—I had them do, is I said “Draw something that you want on this canvas.” So, they all did it, and I still have some of the sketches. I should have brought some. But they, they, they had to come up with an idea that would go on the canvas. So, we looked at all the drawings and they started forming this dialogue and they started talking to each other. And you have to understand these kids were very depressed themselves, and they had these real— Kallas: Traumatized. Tawfilis: Yeah. They were all traumatized and they were kind of afraid of each other when they were—they knew that one was a Serb, and one was a Croat, and one was Bosnian. And they didn’t―they matched them up by age, not so much by what sect of religion they belonged to. So, and in children weren’t so attuned, maybe the older ones were a little bit more conscious of their religious differences, whatever. But in the discussions that they were doing, they started talking about the trauma that they had gone through. And some of the kids knew each other from the different villages that they had come from. And I found myself going outside, crying myself, because they started talking about what they saw, what they felt. And even now, when I think about it, it’s still—it burns a hole in your heart, but it —I wondered how this was going to work. And I’d go back in, and then they decided on a theme. And what was happening is they were going through a catharsis themselves, and they ended up with coming up with the theme “Yesterday and Tomorrow.” And the Yesterday section of this one―I guess we would call it a triptych in our art language, Yesterday, they did sketches of houses that had no roofs, ‘cuz they’d blown up. Airplanes dropping bombs, and then because the women were wearing kerchiefs because they were Bosnian Muslim, they had their heads covered. There, a lot of the little drawings had little pictures of women lined up, going, and they remembered having to come out of the houses in Srebrenica and line up on the other side of the street. So you saw ―you would see sketches of that, and dragons, and just ugly things that they, fires, things burning. And then the middle section where they had put the groups of five together, they drew their little new families, which was really cute. Kallas: That’s awesome. TAWFILIS: And then on the third panel was, were flowers and clowns and balloons and stuff like that. So they called it “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.” So after five days of going through that, I can say that was a life changer for me, and, and I was telling my husband about it, and we, we made that first mural, and he was in the process of constructing a new building, me, a gallery, and we called it Avenida de Los Artistas. So, we had a Spanish name in a German country, speaking country in Austria. We started , he started doing murals, or I started it on the wall, one of the walls of the museum that was being built, at the gallery. So, when I’d go back home, we were making murals, and after about a hundred of them we said “we should make this a project.” Because the latch kids would be coming, then the schools started sending kids over. So we turned it into a project, and actually Foulad, my husband, was the man who came up with the idea of calling it “Art Mile.” We didn’t know it was going to turn into twelve miles! But that’s how it started. And then at one point I met a professor from Wesleyan University, and I did some murals. The very first mural we did outside of Bosnia was in Austria. And then on one of my trips back to Connecticut, I met this professor from Wesleyan, and we did one at the university there. And he said “You need to tell the U.N. about your project.” And, so, there are lots of things going on, wars, conflicts all over. And so the United Nations had set up a program called the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And it was founded by Ambassador Chaudry of the U.N. who was at the time Under Secretary General for small developing nations and island nations. And he had written the resolution to start this International Decade from 2001 to the end of 2010. And so my husband and I had this crazy idea of going to New York and getting him to support it as a U.N. project. And at the same time, the son, the grandson of Jacques Cousteau heard about us, and said “I’d love to see what you’re doing. Maybe you should do murals about the sea.” So he flew from London and met us at the famous hotel in New York, and I was, while I was there to meet Ambassador Chaudry and said he would love to see us do murals about the oceans and the sea and the water. And at that time he was at grad school, I believe. And so our very first celebrity fan was Phillipe Cousteau, the son of Phillipe Cousteau, who passed away in a plane crash. He was one of the two sons of Jacques Cousteau. So we went on to the U.N. and just unrolled five canvases, one of them was done in Nairobi, and it went all the way down the hallway, cuz they were five feet by twelve feet, so we had almost fifty feet of canvas going down the hallway and Ambassador Chaudry’s office took up a whole floor of People in the U.N. building and they all came and looked at it and they all fell in love with the project. And that’s when we got his support and endorsement, and we started doing murals. And now we’ve got over twelve miles of murals from all over the world, which many of them are right here in this building. And our headquarters is in North County and Oceanside. Kallas: And that is called? Tawfilis: The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. We had it set up as the first mural museum in the world, and for people who don’t know the word “Muramid” comes from murals that were being constructed into a pyramid which we had set up a project. My husband came up with the design and he did the photography of over a thousand murals and did them in miniature because we were going to create the Muramid Pyramid at the great Pyramids in Giza. And at the time, we had also, I had retired. We had moved to Egypt. We have a home there. And my husband spent a lot of time and a lot of money. What we called Back Cheese, with the paying under the table to the Minister of Education, Minister of Culture, to do a fourth pyramid to be constructed with piping, I don’t know if they call it, it wasn’t the PPV―PVC piping, it was metal. And he designed that. And then a company here in Oceanside―not Oceanside,―in Irvine, “Supercolor Photo,” were kind enough to make the model and take my husband’s design of the miniature murals and make a cover. And we were able to have a ten-foot model that we were going, we used in several places. In fact, we have ten models all over the world right now, including Japan. And we participated in international conferences and things like that. And the whole idea was to have, to have (someone enters the room, off camera) I thought I locked the door, sorry. Anyway, the whole idea was at the end of 2010 we would have this celebration to commemorate the closing of the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And then, what happened was, because we had so many conflicts we ended up with a second decade, which ended at the end of 2021. Kallas: Now all of your—you have twelve themes for your Art Miles. Tawfilis: Mm-hmm. Kallas: Can you share a little bit about that, and what, what people gained from doing these murals? Tawfilis: Sure. The first thing that we did was Peace, Unity, and Healing. And then we ended up with the Women, because the women’s influence on art and healing. That’s where the healing part came in. And you know when you think about peace, unity, and healing, then you talk about women and their role in it. And then we started environment, because everybody started complaining, and worrying about climate change. And as you know, that has a subject that has increased so many, so much all over the world. And it’s happening. We’re all experiencing that. And then we started doing murals in response to every human and natural disaster. That’s even when 9/11 happened in 2001, it was a big deal and we did, like, many murals and actually exhibited some of them on, at Ground Zero. We were there, doing the mural, at Georgetown University on September 11. And we got sequestered into the hotel that we were staying at, because we were doing a Children’s Environmental Health Network thing. But anyway, back to the themes, so that’s how the environment started. We, the third one was Children’s Environmental Health Network where they actually did a film about us there. And while we were doing that, we ended up being, watching the Twin Towers come down. And then from there we started Children’s and then Fairytale and then Sports and Music, and so now we have Hero and we had—then we started the Japanese government, or I should say our Japanese team started doing an exchange program. They called it, they call it the International Intercultural Mural Exchange where they do half of a mural in Japan and the other half in another country, with another school. So, there’s four hundred forty murals for each themed. They’re all, not all five by twelve, some of them are half sized. But our goal was to at least get to twelve miles, and then in 2008 we attempted to break the Guinness Book of World Records. But three weeks before that, we found out that the United Arab Emirates had already done that with the longest mural in the world. And we couldn’t surpass it, because they, they would, they did like ten-mile, not ten miles, ten murals more than us. But, even the, the grand master, whatever they call them, that comes to do the, to officiate measurements stuff, said ours weren’t connected , and they want a continuous theme. So, what the, what happened with the United Arab Emirates, they did, they did, I think at that time, like four miles, about women, and it was done for International Women’s Day and they featured the, all the children. And all the schools did murals about the sheikah, or the queen, I guess. And then they had to burn it, because it was done on paper, and Islam doesn’t allow images. So, but they did break the record. Plus, it cost ten thousand dollars to bring the guy over, and we didn’t have that kind of money. We still don’t have that kind of money, because we do it all from our hearts, very few donations. Kallas: And can you talk a little bit of how the initial concept of murals has evolved over the years, compared to where you started in Bosnia, and to where you are right now with the murals. Tawfilis: Yeah. I think the biggest change is education. We found that education has come to the forefront because whenever, whatever thing you’re working on, it teaches you something, you know, whether it’s fairy tales that are originally thought of by children and from their imaginations or sports. There are―you learn what the sport’s all about. Music, the same thing. We’ve even had music murals created while people are looking at a mural and they write music about it. And then, or vice versa. Or when it’s in the indigenous mile. At one time we presented a—because I was in Connecticut at the time, we had someone present the idea of doing—we discovered there were five hundred fifty recognized tribes. And so they did a resolution at the National Congress of American Indians, NCAI, that each tribe would contribute a mural. But we got so busy, and then my husband passed away. We have never followed up on that. I don’t know how long those resolutions last. But I would love to revive it. But since that time, I’ve also discovered there’s a whole bunch of non-recognized tribes. And I think that has appealed to me more, because I feel like, how could you not recognize a tribe? I don’t care. I know that there, their requirements have DNA and numbers of members and whether they have a reservation or whatever. But, it’s not accounting, some of the tribes don’t get credit for just being there, and being there first. And they were decimated by whatever colonial tribe or―how would I say―shouldn’t be―that’s the wrong word―colonial influence that came in and took over those lands, even in our own wars, in the Civil War. Even before that, they, you know, the genocide of Native Americans is something that most Americans don’t even know about. They don’t even know about there’s so many tribes in every country that they went through the same thing. You know, the genocide of every African nation. There’s thirty-three countries in Africa! And most Americans don’t know that. There―you could go there, and you could say “The Dutch took over this country. The Italians did this country. The Brits did this.” You know. And they left their influence, but they also started slavery, and brought it here. And then―and I think that’s why there is a bond between a lot of Native Americans. When you―one thing I’ve even discovered more of later in my life is how Native Americans helped so many slaves, you know, following the Civil War. Protected them, and hid them, and intermarried, and that’s why there’s a lot of controversy among white people about―they had this concept the Indians were “red.” First of all, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a red person, or a yellow Chinese person, or maybe caramel, like me. (both she and Linda chuckle) And when you think of black, kids in school when you say “These are Africans.” They use black crayons or black paint. There are some very black people, I think. Some countries have all shades. India has black India people from East India. And Senegal people mostly are darker than most, you know. But there’s also a whole shades, hues of people. But like Aki, our drummer, says “Inside we all have red blood. We all have bones.” You know, and when we all die, you can’t tell, maybe by the―anthropologists will tell you about the skulls and the framework and stuff like that. But color? No. Religion, you know, that’s another thing. So, the other—to get back to your question. The other evolution has been healing. I think the focus now is more on healing, because we have so much―what’s the word―conflicts around the world. And then personal violence going on with school shootings and the massive massacres with massive killings all over and accidents and natural disasters, with hurricanes and floods. Right here in California, the fires, right here! They came right up to the back door here, you know. And if you drive up through the mountains going to, to go buy a pie, you’re going to find out. You drive through all the reservation areas and you see where the fires from the past―you see those still the black, some of the trees, and there’s a big contrast with the silhouettes of those trees and then the―now the overgrown greenery. It’s so beautiful, and you know, things like that. So, healing has made a big difference, because when people―and what I’m really, I think, what I’d like to share in this interview with you―is that healing isn’t just the murals that we send to the people who have been become victims and their families of those who were killed or injured in these horrible violent events or disasters. It’s us, ourselves. When each school shooting happens, how many parents and people with a heart feel that pain, of, of—I can’t—every time I hear of a school shooting, I think of those poor little kids, and I grieve for them and for their families and for the friends and the neighbors that were there. And my first exposure to that was actually the, the widows watching those children, and then 9/11 when the Red Cross had murals being done all over. We have some amazing murals that came from all over the country and the world, displaying their feelings. And one of them, one of the ones that stands out in my mind, is Hope, Alaska did one. And it, the whole mural is the word “Hope” but inside the word “Hope” they drew people, and a lot of native and indigenous people are in that. And then, when Sandy Hook happened from my, where I’m from, Connecticut, I went there, and to see those little children, you know. How can anybody go in and kill all those little tiny kindergarten kids, and the teachers? And then what people don’t know there’s, in America, there’s a place called Beslan, near Russia, where the radicals, and the— Kallas: Government was involved in― Tawfilis: Yeah, over two hundred people, two hundred kids and teachers killed. And then again, recently, you know, I mean we could go on and on. And every time we did a mural, it was like once or twice a year, and now, I mean, I think in July we had three shootings , and, you know, things we had to respond to. And actually, I’m behind! We haven’t been able to do, Massa from the, Mahsa Imani―Amini, from the―from Iran, because we’re so busy. We just finished Ukraine, you know. There’s just, St. Louis. All this stuff keeps happening. So, healing! Kallas: So, part of your process in dealing with this tragedy is there’s a healing element for you to respond to those through a mural. And you send those murals to those places, correct? Tawfilis: Yeah. And we’ve been lucky. Sometimes we hear back, and sometimes we don’t. Because you can’t expect everybody, every city and town, to say “Oh, gosh, all these people.” You know, people send food and clothing. And a lot of people do art and murals and flowers and, and stuff like that. So, I know, you know, part of giving, what people don’t understand is we give and we do murals from our heart. We don’t expect a lot in return. What I expect is when people paint a mural to send that they are sharing that same emotion that I feel that they want people to know that we’re thinking of them, and that we’re sending our prayers and good wishes. I know people think that a lot of non-governmental organizations do things for money. Well, we’re, we’re a great example of “No” (laughs), because― Kallas: Non-profit. Tawfilis: Yeah, we are a true non-profit. And my husband and I and a lot of people have contributed. We don’t have an overhead staff that we, we pay for. We can’t. We just don’t, you know. Thank goodness we have good―there’s so many―I focus on the good people and the good things that come. If I started thinking about what I have or what I don’t, you know, what I don’t have, with other organizations that get grants, and they have sponsors and philanthropists look at them, I would never be able to do what I do. At this age, I’m just now starting―we have a Foundation that we’re working on, and my goal is to finally, if I realize it, if I want to have a legacy in the name, in the memory of my husband who gave up his career, and out of my true care and I say, I want to say concern for people who are suffering, and indigenous people, I think that’s why I want it here. That’s what brought my here. I think the Creator, whoever your Creator is, my Creator is a number of spiritual things, that I saw this place that we’re sitting in right now before we opened the Muramid and Artists Alley. And my husband said “It’s too small. It looks like a house!” And it was full of crazy stuff that had been here before. So, it was neglected and smelly. It didn’t have high ceilings when we peeked in the windows, and he, he just kind of passed it on. But, something called out to me in this place. And I remember driving around one day after I knew I had to leave Artists Alley, because he passed away. I hadn’t, didn’t have the infrastructure and the help that I do now with Aki and his drumming and neighbors and friends and people that have helped put this thing together. I remember driving around and it still had a For Rent style on here―sign―and I parked the car and I called the guy and the property manager. And it was still in the same shape that it had been, I guess, six years before. So, this place had been empty for a while. I think maybe something might have happened in between, but I doubt it, because judging from when we did get inside, and there was a lot of feces, dead animals, all kinds of stuff. But I can feel this place. When we took down the ceiling, because it was that―what do they call it―insulation hanging down, and I looked at the wood, and I realized “Wow, this place was here a long time ago.” I didn’t know the history of the place, but I’ve been told it was the original general store for the Mission. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then when I found out about the Mission and, you know, being a Catholic, in a former life, I thought “Wow, this is pretty cool!” Then I remember reading, like other things in Connecticut, that there were people here before the Mission came, and I got really passionate about “I’m going to put it right there.” And I want to dedicate the place to the Luiseño, because I found out that they are the people that this belongs to. And everybody that comes in the door, every single person, I can’t think of one that hasn’t come in the door for the first time and goes “Wow! This place, it has such great karma. It feels warm and friendly, and it’s inviting and it’s good to be in here and it’s so creative.” And I went (claps her hands together) “Yes! That’s what we’re all about.” And so, I think we are an important piece of the history of this place because I feel like an archive in here, of some sort. And the Mural Project has found its home, and I think that’s an important part of being the history up here in the North County, to have a project that’s global in scope that has been participated in by over a half a million people from over a hundred countries. To land in a place that is based on what everybody should know about indigenous communities. My hope is that―and I started out with my husband and I both said, you know, before we wanted to feature different cultures, because we felt that Americans weren’t quite educated enough to understand the diversity and the richness of cultures from other people, and other countries, including this country, you know. There’s so many―and I don’t want to use the term “white”―but there’s a lot of American, white people who don’t understand that they came here from other countries as well. And in their own country, if they look back in their roots, they’ll find out that they come in different shades as well. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And that the stolen land―you know, recently I watched a documentary about Alabama where the last slave ship came in and it was against the law to even bring slaves after 1860 or something like that. But it was one ship’s captain who said “I can show you how to do it, and I’m going to prove it.” And he did it out of rebellion and brought a hundred and twenty slaves from Africa, made them get off the ship, near Mobile, Alabama, and in the water, the swamp, they got on to the land. I understand they stayed there for a few weeks and then they divided them into three different plantations. But they burned that ship in that. They said they wanted to get rid of the evidence. Well, that was a genocide in and off itself, of history. And now after four hundred years or whatever, they’re finding all these remnants. You can go anywhere, even here. When we started doing the back, we found a cross in the yard that, that must have been buried in the ground from whatever was here before. And I always wondered what happened and what’s going on with all this gentrification and the new building over there. It hurts my heart. And I talked to a Luiseño member who is one of our drummers, a woman, she said “every time she goes by” and she’s a school bus driver, she said “it hurts my heart.” Because she knows there’s another thing covering it up and erasing part of the history of this place. And I’m really sorry that, you know, recently the newspaper said “the wave just got approved with the valley over there, and the rest of the valley. And I live in a place that I look at that, and I, I could cry just thinking about it. Right across the street from Pablo Tac Elementary School. They’re going to build a wave park like we need one so close to the ocean? I mean, come on. Commercialization is just really destroying the natural history of many places including right here where we live. So, I’m hoping that the owner of the properties here will never let this place become that wave even though I can see a beautiful little old town here. You know, I like to see more cultural things happen here. And I’d love to see the cultural district expand from downtown to where the real history is here. I mean, uh, it’s to me almost sinful that we don’t put more emphasis on what the history of this area, of Oceanside, is all about. It’s all on the front, at the waterfront. It’s all commercial. They even destroyed the waterfront in my eyes, by putting all that, the hotels and stuff. Kallas: Well, in trying to put it all together here, in breadth and in depth is community building. Tawfilis: Correct. Kallas: Through the murals, through the other work you’ve done. It seems to be the main theme of your life, and now you have the Center. And doesn’t it also have something to do with UNESCO? Tawfilis: Yes! We recently became the UNESCO Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. And with that I think will help enhance my opportunity and all the people that work with us to bring more cultural education and healing to this area, and to educate people about what real peace begins with me, and our neighbors and our families. And then, you know, I know this all sounds very philosophical but it’s true, you know. And, um, I think we have a pretty good mayor who supports local people more than others that I’ve seen. Maybe it’s because I see her out there in the community more than I’ve seen other mayors do. And I know that she is of Mexican descent, but I also believe that Mexicans have a lot of indigenous people here as well. Kallas: Right. Tawfilis: And when I talk about Mexicans, I don’t mean that they are the invaders of the people that took over. They too have been, you know, victims of genocide. All this belonging to part of that. But the first people here from all the history that I have been able to do my own research on, were the Luiseños. And so, my passion and dedication is going to be based on that. I am going to be looking at other cultures and introducing the people of the world to our local community through this center. But this is―This year, the Valley Arts Festival will feature my dedication to that. As I have this painting behind me. It’s kind of weird that we have this Mexican lady, native, behind me, and then my dancer, and then I am going to do a dedicated mural to the Spirit of the Valley, and to the tribal captain and a woman who happens to be his sister who I think is, in my eyes, the official historian of just about everything that could ever happen to the Luiseños here. And I feel very fortunate, um, coming from where I do, and what I did in Connecticut with the Mashantucket Pequots to see them grow and have the best museum in my eyes, in the whole world, indigenous or otherwise because it’s interactive. To be with people that are still alive that I can talk to and interact with that live right here in this community. So… Kallas: So, going forward, what, um, what other projects are on the horizon for you. Tawfilis: Well― Kallas: Besides what you just talked about, are there other avenues that you’re going to pursue? Tawfilis: Oh, thank you for asking. Because one way of documenting history is books. So, I’m writing, actually there’ll be four books that I hope will be coming from me. But interacting with other people, we’re doing, taking the murals now, what am I going to do with twelve miles of murals? My goal is to convince the Smithsonian that they need to take these, because to me it’s a visual documentation of two decades or more of history by the people and for the people. This is their words, not some author who wrote a book about the history of something. It’s from all over the world, and it addresses social issues everywhere. So, what I’m hoping to do is we have a Foundation that we’re going to be―we are part of, called the Endangered Planet Foundation, and our project will, will be embracing that and taking the mural images and trying to create practical products from the mural images and raising money through the sales of textiles and books and things like that, tangible things that can go into a fund that will keep this project going, and long after I’m gone. Hopefully until then I can help form a solid board and we can end up hiring a staff which we’ve never had, to carry on this project, because I think it’s something that can continue. Mural art has been growing all over the world. The cave men have come a long way from their images to creating murals not just on walls but on canvas and ours is mobile. I wanted to have a voice for people that could be shared, not stuck on a wall that you’re never going to― I’m maybe some people will never get to Machu Pichu or to the Egyptian temples and pyramids or caves where we have here in the United States with etchings and things on them. So, this way we can bring people closer together. So that’s the future, is I want to leave a legacy and because I know what works. What other non-profit organization can survive for almost twenty-five years with no money? I’ll tell you why. Because people believe in it, and we believe in it with all our hearts and souls. And, as nearing my seventy-seventh birthday, I bypassed seventy-five because of Covid. I think we have proof in the pudding, so, yeah, that’s the plan, is to continue. Kallas: And speaking from personal experience, I’ve actually experienced the healing process and that sense of community where we’re all working on the same thing at the same time. There’s just so much unity in that and it’s very, you could really internalize that. Tawfilis: Well you know the big―bottom line is mural art gives you a chance to express yourself even with a group, because as you know doing quilt, we do that kind of style with murals as well, in different forms or whatever. You get to express yourself individually but you do it with a group and it brings you all closer together, and in doing so you talk to each other, and the bottom line is you find out how much more we have in common than we have in differences. Which sounds like a cliché, but boy it’s true. Kallas: It’s very true. Tawfilis: We actually do it. And we make ourselves, I mean, better people because we get to know and appreciate other people’s opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. We hear what they’re thinking and feeling, and we learn a lot from each other. And I think that’s how peace is going to happen, when we begin to open our minds and our hearts to understanding that we’re different but we all have the same basic common needs. We all want to eat. We all want to be able to have a home over our heads and feel safe. And the richness of having other cultures influencing your life―it’s like if you’re only going to eat American hot dogs and hamburgers, what a boring life that would be, right? (Linda laughs) I always think of it simplistically like that because you end up going “Gee, I like Thai food. I like Chinese food. I like Italian food. Whatever.” Well, that comes from people, you know. And so, the blend and the magic of seeing the dancing from, and the music, the different forms of music, and you can be native American and play rock-n-roll music. I happen to know somebody who can do that and do it well. Or a Filipino that can sing beautiful, musical songs. Or the homeless people with the choir that was started right here from North County. I mean I think that’s a great, you know, cultural contribution to history. So. Kallas: Well, Joanne, thank you so much. It’s been an honor and a privilege to do this interview with you. And I want to repeat something I recently told a mutual friend about you, that I truly think you are a work of art. Tawfilis: Oh, my goodness. Kallas: And I just thank you so much. Tawfilis: Well, thank you. And I also want to say that I did get a PhD at the age of 71. So, my message to all those who think that you never learned and you can’t earn a degree as you get older, you’re wrong. You can get it, and mine was honorary, and I’m really proud of it now because I used to think―I’m very humble about it because I do understand how much hard work goes in to doing a dissertation. I almost got there. I could have done that, but I traveled so much I couldn’t finish. But understanding that when you do a life’s work dedicated to something, I think it’s deserved. I’m saying that today for the first time, that looking back on my career, I did earn it. Kallas: Yes, you did. Tawfilis: And I’m very happy that my, if my dad were alive and I received a big award when I retired. I got the highest award you could get as a civilian and they gave me miniature medal. It’s from the military. As well as a big one. And when I went to Arlington I put that miniature beneath my dad’s cross at Arlington National Cemetery. And I, when I got my PhD, my first trip to Washington, D.C., afterwards I went directly there, and I told my dad “Guess what, dad? You wanted me to get an education, and I got a Ph.D.” Kallas: Wow, what a great note to close on. Thank you again. I really appreciate this. Tawfilis: Thank you. (Looking off camera to someone else) Did I put you to sleep? Unknown male voice: No, that’s a wrap. GLOSSARY: Aki (pg.11,12) Ambassador Chaudry (pg.8) Americorps (pg.4) Arlington National Cemetery (pg.16) Army Management Staff College (pg.4) Artist’s Alley (pg.2) Art Miles (pg.2,8) Back Cheese (pg.9) Base closure team (pg.3) Besan (near Russia) (pg.11) Bosnian Women’s Initiative (pg.5) Broadway Pier (pg.2) Chicano Park (pg.3) Chief Joseph (pg.3) Children’s Environmental Health Network (pg.9) Colville (pg.3) Endangered Planet Foundation (pg.15) Foulad (pg.8) Friendship Program (pg.2) Gigiri (pg.5) International Atomic Energy Agency (pg.4,5) International Decade for the Culture of Peace (pg.8,9) International Intercultural Mural Exchange (pg.10) Kettle Falls (pg.3) Luiseño (pg.13,14) Mahsa Amini (pg.12) Mashantucket Pequots (pg.14) Mural Museum (pg.2) Muramid Arts and Cultural Center (pg.9) Muramid Pyramid (pg.9) National Congress of American Indians (pg.10) Nespelem (pg.3) Orange Coast College (pg.6) Pablo Tac Elementary School (pg.14) “Painting Outside the Lines” (pg.6) Peace, Unity, Healing (pg.9) Sergeant Shriver (pg.4) Srebrenica (pg.5) “Stem to Steam” (pg.6) Submarine School (pg.2) Supercolor Photo (pg.9) Tuzla (pg.6) UNESCO Center for Peace (pg.14) United Nation Environment Program, Nairobi (pg.4) Vista Volunteer Program (pg.4) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Title
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Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview October 31, 2022.
Description
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Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances.
Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace.
Identifier
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SC027-052
Subject
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Art Miles Project
Bosnian Women's Initiative
International Atomic Energy Agency
Military base closures
Mural painting and decoration
Muramid Art and Cultural Center (Oceanside, Calif.)
Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina
Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995
Unesco
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Women artists
Date
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2022-10-31
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video
Creator
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Joanne Tawfilis
Contributor
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Linda Kallas
Coverage
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Oceanside (Calif.)
Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
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Joanne Tawfilis
License
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<a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a>
Activists and activism
Art and artists
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Politics and governance
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/650df26fcebb5e908a3a6386a0e71713.pdf
91b6788af9d667a1f9d0118bd55f634c
PDF Text
Text
TAWFILIS, JOANNE
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-10-31
Transcript
Linda Kallas: Today is October 31, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Joanne
Tawfilis as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you for joining me today,
Joanne.
Joanne Tawfilis: Thank you, Linda. Glad to be here.
Kallas: It’s my pleasure. I’m going to give you some questions, and you’re going to answer them
and to the best of your ability and we’ll just keep moving through the questions. Okay?
Tawfilis: Okay, sounds good.
Kallas: First of all, when and where were you born?
Tawfilis: I was born in New London, Connecticut, and, um, a long time ago, [laughs] almost
seventy-seven years.
Kallas: And was your family an active part of any cultural communities where you grew up?
Tawfilis: Actually, my family was one of the first Filipino American families in the town that I
was born in. Um, we had a huge family, and then another family came and there was sort of a
competition between the two families on, I think, who could have the most kids.
Kallas: Oh! [chuckles]
Tawfilis: And I think my dad won! [both Joanne and Linda laugh]
Kallas: Um, so you didn’t grow up in North County. You moved here how many years ago?
Tawfilis: Oh, it was—I moved here probably, um, in 1971, was when I first came to California.
But then with my career I traveled all over the world, so I was back and forth on a regular basis.
Uh, I had children and grandchildren here, and when I retired in the year 2000, I decided to settle
here in paradise. [nods]
Kallas: Nice. And how do you like living and working here since then?
Tawfilis: Oh, I love San Diego County. Out of all the places I’ve ever been, I think that what I—
I love the weather like everybody else, but it’s very multicultural, and, uh, makes life interesting
that way. And grandchildren will always keep you where you are going to retire.
Kallas: Um, do you feel like you’re part of the community? And do you have a support network?
Tawfilis: I feel very much part of the community in many ways, but on―in some ways, no,
because we’re—we’ve kind of discombobulated in this county where North County is kind of
separated. But, I—my community is global, so it makes it a little bit interesting for me to try to
be part of this community, despite the fact that I am, uh, running a multicultural center.
Oceanside seems to be very focused on downtown and tourism, and, uh, I wanted to be here,
even when I was downtown when we had our, um—it’s our studio and our center and our
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-10-31
museum, the first mural museum in the world in Artists’ Alley. I—I thought we were really
integrated into the community, but when—when I had to move out and come down here, it’s
been a little different because we’re—we’re—we’re not considered you know neighborly, I
think, is my—my feeling. We—we—we’re here. I love being part of being imbedded into the
community, especially the indigenous community, because the Center was supposed to be
focused on multiculturalism, with the focus on indigenous people.
Kallas: Um, so prior to doing what you do now at the Mural Museum and the Art Miles, you had
another whole career. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Tawfilis: Yeah. I started out doing illustration work with the U.S. government, and when
computers came out, they scared the heck out of me, being a non-technical person and being kind
of a—I think, at that time, a very snobby artist [laughs], and then when people tell you what they
want painted on, or drawn with specific directions, I had to question “Why, then, do you need
me, if you’re not going to use my creative brain.” And the computer-generated art didn’t appeal
to me because of that. Although now it’s grown into such a great variety of software programs,
you can do almost anything, even with your own art. But as a young artist, I didn’t see it that
way. So I worked for the military for most of my career in civil service, and then later on,
combined my civil service career with the United Nations, and got to travel, a lot!
Kallas: Um, so, some of the work—you want to talk about some of the work you did for the
military, Civil Service department?
Tawfilis: Yeah. After doing illustration, um, at the Submarine School in Connecticut, where
we—where I was born, and my ex-husband was military, we traveled and that’s how I came—
came to California. Um, and I worked really hard doing graphics here. Um, I rose in my career
there to, to when the Bicentennial happened in, uh, 1975–76, the Navy and the country’s
Bicentennial, and I got a little bit famous because I coordinated the whole military celebration
down at the Broadway Pier, and things like that. And, then when, uh, uh, I went as far as I could,
as far as a illustrator, was go—was my part of my career, and they started to do more and more
graphics. I mean I worked at every military base in San Diego that you could think of.
Kallas: Oh.
Tawfilis: And then an opportunity came to become, uh, the first civilian and woman to be a, an
international military training coordinator, and that’s how I got really involved with the
international work, because the job was to be like a cultural, um, leader for the military people
that came and their families, and setting up Friendship programs, and ex—not exchange
programs, because these were, these were guys that were being trained on the equipment in the
ships that we sold as part of the―what they call an international military exchange training
program, I met and several others. So, I worked through all the bases doing that, and really loved,
um, starting programs for the military and introducing them to American culture. And that was
my real first experience, and getting international people to know the native cultures. And I did a
lot of—I spent a lot of time down in San Diego, and Chicano Park, and I used to have the
military, even the officers, lay down in the, the big, uh, like a pagoda―I’ve forgotten what you
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-10-31
call it [chuckles], I think this is my senior moment―um, and look up to see the Inca and the
Maya—Mayan civilization paintings, ‘cuz that’s where Chicano Park is sort of visualized and
painted in amazing murals. And I did part of that on the bridge, the bridge stanchions that show
how the Mexicans and the Spaniards came, and the farm workers came. And that was a lot of
indigenous peoples from Mexico. And that got me interested. And then coming from
Connecticut and New England where we had a lot of Native American tribes, a lot of
international people ask about what happened to all the Indians in American culture? And a lot
of—back then, a lot of international people only knew about cowboys and Indians, like most of
us when we were growing up, you know, decades ago. And it also—it was very interesting to me
because my minor in college was Native American Studies.
Kallas: Oh.
Tawfilis: And that’s how I got introduced to it. But, you know, it was something that you think
of academically, although it struck my heart because I was really angry at our educational system
for not letting me know, among others, that where I grew up and lived most of my, you know,
young adult life prior to college was Indian country. I mean, one of the thirteen colonies. And
people don’t realize what kind of impact that had, has on people when you’re growing up. So,
that affected my, my heart always. So, when I—in my career, I’ve always had that as a, I want to
say, a big influence on what I’ve done to, to teach international people when I travel, both with
the military and with the U.N.
Kallas: Now, did the military send you to other countries as well?
Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. I ended up—I started out doing, like I said, the international training stuff,
but then I was on the base closure team, where my career went way up as far as getting higher
promotions and better pay, and stuff like that. So I ended up, after doing base closures in most of
the San Francisco Bay and Hawaii area, my territory was, I was one of twelve people that did the
base closure studies. And then I had an opportunity—kind of as a fluke—to apply for an
international job with the Army, and my supervisor and I both did it, um, as a—I don’t know, we
just got a, a bug to say, “Oh, let’s see what happens if we apply to do what we’re doing here in
the States, doing base closures.” And so, they offered her a job, and she turned it down. And they
said “Oh well, the next person on the list is right in your office. Can we talk to her?” That was
me! And so I ended up going to Germany. At the time I had been working for the Navy for over
twenty years, in different positions like I said, from illustrator to management analyst, and
working at foreign training and base closures. So then I ended up going to the Army in Germany,
and that was, uh, right after, um, the Bicentennial had ended, and then I did a stint with—I took
some time, and got, went on loan as a Vista volunteer, and went up to the Nespelem reservation
in Colville, Kettle Falls area of Washington. I got really lucky cuz’ my hero was Chief Joseph
[chuckles] and so I worked on that reservation in a parent aid program. But that’s another whole
thing that maybe we could talk about later. Because going back to the military, I did this closing
the bases in Europe and I became one of the heads of the base closure team there, and that’s how
I got to travel to just about every European country there was. And, um, from there, I got
recruited by the state department and through my federal military civilian job, went to work for
the United Nations in, in Austria after the base closure job in Germany, that I went onward to,
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-10-31
um, working on loan again. I went on loan from the Navy to the Army, from the Army to the
International Atomic Energy Agency, and on loan again to the United Nations Environment
Program in Nairobi. I mean there were jobs in between, but, and like I say that the stint I did at—
I got to continue my career, even though I stopped working for the military for two years to work
on, um, the Vista volunteer program. When Shriv—Sergeant Shriver started the Peace Corps, he
also started the Vista volunteer program, which is now, I think, Americorps. So I was in that first
round.
Kallas: Mm-hmm.
Tawfilis: And then I went back to civil service and continued on, and onward to U.N.
Kallas: And did they send you to, um, war torn countries, and where there was a lot of political
unrest—
Tawfilis: Oh, yeah.
Kallas: —as a representative?
TAWFILIS: Yeah. When I went to, um—well, I could say my first stint overseas in Germany
with the Army was when the wall came down. And I had just adopted two more children, and uh,
I remember during that time the―when the wall came down, my kids were like, like—they were
adopted from Mexico, and then—but they were Americans in a sense, so they were Mexican
descent. And it was really interesting for them to learn German, so you see two little Mexicans
speaking in German [chuckles]. It was kind of cool. And, um, but the war torn part of it was―my
job was because the war was over, the Cold War, and the wall came down, the government
decided that’s why they wanted to close the bases because they didn’t need that anymore. We
had so much military might invested in Germany because that was the actual front, that it made
my job easy because the, the common sense of the economic support that they did for Europe,
um, on the, well, it was called the front, made sense to start closing the bases. And so, I became a
superstar, doing that, because I had people skills, so the generals that I worked for decided that it
was great to have a woman civilian go give the commanding officers of the base the good news
and the bad news that their base was going to be closed. And as a result of that, I was one of four
women chosen to be, um, a member or take part in a study to decide whether civilians should
become executive officers of military bases. So, they sent us to Army Management Staff
College, and I was one of the four women that attended that. And so, the idea would be that I
would become an executive officer of a military base so they could station military in the field.
The problem with that is there’s no military that’s going to listen to a civilian as a boss. So, you
can ask my son-in-law about that, ‘cuz he was Army. In fact, my daughter met him there in
Germany. But, yeah, that was one. And then with the U.N., when I went to Africa, there’s all
kinds of―I want to say―conflicts going on, including Somalia, Rwanda, during all that time, and
so, yeah, I saw a lot. In fact, I was car-napped and my own personal safety was in danger there,
not only from being exposed to so many people that were dying of AIDS, but because of the
tribal—there’s like forty tribes in Nairobi alone and there were conflicts and a lot of cultural
differences between the tribal people and a lot of, um, little―I want to say―mini wars going on
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and the political strife, and then of course, it was pretty bloody with Rwanda and then Somalia in
that area. But I got to travel all over Africa, looking at—my job there was to consolidate the U.N.
organizations in Nairobi and the base was called Gigiri, and, um, I got in trouble there, because I
tried to support the local indigenous people with the financial area. So, if you want to talk about
wars, and danger, and stuff like that, I think people think of shooting, you know, and bombs and
stuff. But there’s other kind of wars, like economic ones. And I came up with this idea that civil
service employees in international organizations should be cay—should be paid equally. But
they have this system in the U.N. where local nationals are―have to go through a wage
classification survey and they get the prevailing wage rate, whatever that country is. So, in other
words, my secretary in Austria would get $3,000 a month, but my secretary in Nairobi would get
$300 dollars a month.
Kallas: Oh...
Tawfilis: Yeah. And I just didn’t think that made sense, working with the U.N. So, it was kind of
a battle there, and I think that was the biggest war for me, is trying to help the local nationals.
And I did some―I want to say―out of the ordinary things, like promoting them when other
people went out on mission they would hire people to come in and pay them exorbitant amounts
of money, including me, because I, I was on a stipend on a daily basis, in addition to my very
high salary. But the work was done by the local people. I think that happens everywhere, that the
real worker bees don’t get recognized for the, all the work that they do, and they carry on the
mission of whatever that country’s, you know, objectives are. And so, I think that’s one of the
reasons I got car-napped, because I had a big mouth and I actually wrote a book about how to
flatten the United Nations. So, they sent me back. I was on loan from the International Atomic
Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria to Africa, and because I tried to help the local people, I think
I wasn’t going to go much further, after ten years, you know, working for the U.N. So, that was
my personal battle when you talk about wars, and dangerous things. I mean, when you get to the
point where they don’t want you to talk―and it wasn’t the U.N. that did it―it was a person that
probably wanted the job that I had―that arranged for this kidnapping or car-napping that I
survived. So…
Kallas: So, you also, um, had spent time in Bosnia during that—
Tawfilis: Yeah, at the end of my career—
Kallas: —that was after all the—
Tawfilis: with—I was getting ready to retire and, uh, because I was on loan as a very highranked civilian, the only place they could put me would be the Pentagon in Washington, D.C.
and I didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. I’d been at the headquarters many times with my
job with the Army. I did a lot of stuff for the Army, like I said. And I really didn’t want to move
to Washington, D.C. So, they gave me a choice of going to Bosnia and working with the widows
at Srebrenica, at the end of the conflict in the Balkans between the―where Yugoslavia had
broken up. And I went on an interview sponsored by the Clinton Foundation to be the Director of
the Bosnian Women’s Initiative or what they—most people know as the Widows of Srebrenica,
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where at some point they gathered the Bosnian women together―and I should say the Bosnian
families together―in their village called Srebrenica which was a safe haven. And unfortunately it
wasn’t a very well protected safe haven, and on July tenth and eleventh in 197―uh, 1995, the
Serbs came in and gave the people ten minutes to come outside, and they put the women on one
side of the street, women and children under fourteen and old people, real old people, and then
they put the men and boys on the other side and then they took all the women, put them on buses
and sent them to a village in the mountains, in Tuzla. And the men disappeared. They found
some mass graves. They found some bodies in a forest where they were―tried to run away, I
guess, some of the men. And, but they never found the whole―I would say, whole group of the
over six to seven thousand. They, they suspect―there’s a lot of theories, and a lot of books
written about it. But my job was to work with the women and help them do economic
development and to heal and to also help identify bodies and get all their data because they had
no pictures of their families. They had, you know, all this stuff that they—they left with nothing.
And then to try to help reconciliation between the three entities, and I ended up, you know,
working my, my heart and my head off, because working with people who have lost everything
and witnessed the destruction of their country and their families getting killed and murdered and
their men disappearing, and these were mostly farm women that didn’t even know how to write
their name. So, I think I worked harder in my life those three or four years that I was there doing
everything from gathering information to help put the war crimes together because these people
were still on the loose. And then throughout the years, the military would find them and capture
the war crime perpetrators and bring them to the Hague and they were imprisoned, and some of
them—I won’t name names—passed away in prison before they could be tried. But it was
terrible trying to identify remains with the women. Maybe it would be just shreds of a shirt but
they recognized their husbands. And then having all that emotional—I think I have a whole book
of stories I could write about their suffering.
Kallas: Mm-hmm.
Tawfilis: But because of that, I was encouraged to go work in the orphanage and there three
hundred fifty orphans. I have a TED talk online, TED-X from Orange Coast College. And, it
was―it’s called “Painting Outside the Lines.” I also have one from UCSD “Stem to Steam”
because I put the art part in there. But back to the Bosnian situation and I guess as the point of
my career that changed my life that we were going to talk about, because when I saw what the
children had gone through and I―they―they told me—you were getting— I was getting very
depressed, and they said “you need to go work in this orphanage.” So, the three hundred fifty
orphans from all three entities, but they had not found or located all families. So, some of the
kids had no survivors. I understand that most of them they were able to place them years later.
But while I was there, my―my, uh, free time, if you want to call it free time, was to go and work
with these kids to do art. And then after about three months of just sketching and coloring and
stuff, they asked if they could make a very big painting and I interpreted that as a mural. And so
if you―you’ll hear on the TED talk, how we found bed sheets in a closet that were full of sort of
darned holes and the―they explained to me that the young ladies in Europe learn how to sew,
which we did away with here in the United States. But there they sew everything. So, when they
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pulled out the sheets, and they had all these little stitches, and some still had holes, I, when I
asked them what the holes were about, they said “Well, this used to be a hospital, and it was
bombed. So these were from the shells and the shrapnel that, that, you know, made holes in the
walls and the bedding and the whole bit of the ugly hospital beds over there.” So, what I did was
the Army had left a 10-gallon pan―pail of white flat, white wall paint and I, I had them sew two
sheets together and I put masking tape on the back where I thought there were the least amount
of holes and then I just painted. I put a whole bunch of newspaper, and in the morning it turned
into a very stiff canvas! So, we had a canvas and the kids got very excited. Every time I think
about their faces when they saw that, and then it was like “Oh, we’ve got to paint that whole
thing?” You know…
Kallas: So, that’s when your two careers intersected, so you kind of went back to—.
Tawfilis: Right.
Kallas: roots, and—
TAWFILIS: And I got to do art, right? So, but what changed my life were the, the children and
the oldest one was about eighteen and then they had a little eighteen or nineteen-month-old baby
in there, and they divided the kids up into groups of five. And they took two older, mostly teens,
and then three younger kids, so they could take care of each other, ‘cuz they only had five people
running this whole orphanage. There was psychologist, and then the other four were caregivers,
and they cooked for them, and made sure that they were, you know, trying to keep them busy.
There were—I don’t even think they had formal education for them, because there was nothing.
And they were just being protected and fed, and trying—and I think doing the art was a real
important thing in their lives. So, how my life changed was, the kids started—I said “you have to
decide what you want to paint.” So, what they—I had them do, is I said “Draw something that
you want on this canvas.” So, they all did it, and I still have some of the sketches. I should have
brought some. But they, they, they had to come up with an idea that would go on the canvas. So,
we looked at all the drawings and they started forming this dialogue and they started talking to
each other. And you have to understand these kids were very depressed themselves, and they had
these real—
Kallas: Traumatized.
Tawfilis: Yeah. They were all traumatized and they were kind of afraid of each other when they
were—they knew that one was a Serb, and one was a Croat, and one was Bosnian. And they
didn’t―they matched them up by age, not so much by what sect of religion they belonged to. So,
and in children weren’t so attuned, maybe the older ones were a little bit more conscious of their
religious differences, whatever. But in the discussions that they were doing, they started talking
about the trauma that they had gone through. And some of the kids knew each other from the
different villages that they had come from. And I found myself going outside, crying myself,
because they started talking about what they saw, what they felt. And even now, when I think
about it, it’s still—it burns a hole in your heart, but it—I wondered how this was going to work.
And I’d go back in, and then they decided on a theme. And what was happening is they were
going through a catharsis themselves, and they ended up with coming up with the theme
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“Yesterday and Tomorrow.” And the Yesterday section of this one―I guess we would call it a
triptych in our art language, Yesterday, they did sketches of houses that had no roofs, ‘cuz they’d
blown up. Airplanes dropping bombs, and then because the women were wearing kerchiefs
because they were Bosnian Muslim, they had their heads covered. There, a lot of the little
drawings had little pictures of women lined up, going, and they remembered having to come out
of the houses in Srebrenica and line up on the other side of the street. So you saw―you would
see sketches of that, and dragons, and just ugly things that they, fires, things burning. And then
the middle section where they had put the groups of five together, they drew their little new
families, which was really cute.
Kallas: That’s awesome.
TAWFILIS: And then on the third panel was, were flowers and clowns and balloons and stuff
like that. So they called it “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.” So after five days of going
through that, I can say that was a life changer for me, and, and I was telling my husband about it,
and we, we made that first mural, and he was in the process of constructing a new building, me, a
gallery, and we called it Avenida de Los Artistas. So, we had a Spanish name in a German
country, speaking country in Austria. We started, he started doing murals, or I started it on the
wall, one of the walls of the museum that was being built, at the gallery. So, when I’d go back
home, we were making murals, and after about a hundred of them we said “we should make this
a project.” Because the latch kids would be coming, then the schools started sending kids over.
So we turned it into a project, and actually Foulad, my husband, was the man who came up with
the idea of calling it “Art Mile.” We didn’t know it was going to turn into twelve miles! But
that’s how it started. And then at one point I met a professor from Wesleyan University, and I did
some murals. The very first mural we did outside of Bosnia was in Austria. And then on one of
my trips back to Connecticut, I met this professor from Wesleyan, and we did one at the
university there. And he said “You need to tell the U.N. about your project.” And, so, there are
lots of things going on, wars, conflicts all over. And so the United Nations had set up a program
called the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And it was founded by Ambassador
Chaudry of the U.N. who was at the time Under Secretary General for small developing nations
and island nations. And he had written the resolution to start this International Decade from 2001
to the end of 2010. And so my husband and I had this crazy idea of going to New York and
getting him to support it as a U.N. project. And at the same time, the son, the grandson of
Jacques Cousteau heard about us, and said “I’d love to see what you’re doing. Maybe you should
do murals about the sea.” So he flew from London and met us at the famous hotel in New York,
and I was, while I was there to meet Ambassador Chaudry and said he would love to see us do
murals about the oceans and the sea and the water. And at that time he was at grad school, I
believe. And so our very first celebrity fan was Phillipe Cousteau, the son of Phillipe Cousteau,
who passed away in a plane crash. He was one of the two sons of Jacques Cousteau. So we went
on to the U.N. and just unrolled five canvases, one of them was done in Nairobi, and it went all
the way down the hallway, cuz they were five feet by twelve feet, so we had almost fifty feet of
canvas going down the hallway and Ambassador Chaudry’s office took up a whole floor of
People in the U.N. building and they all came and looked at it and they all fell in love with the
project. And that’s when we got his support and endorsement, and we started doing murals. And
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now we’ve got over twelve miles of murals from all over the world, which many of them are
right here in this building. And our headquarters is in North County and Oceanside.
Kallas: And that is called?
Tawfilis: The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. We had it set up as the first mural museum in
the world, and for people who don’t know the word “Muramid” comes from murals that were
being constructed into a pyramid which we had set up a project. My husband came up with the
design and he did the photography of over a thousand murals and did them in miniature because
we were going to create the Muramid Pyramid at the great Pyramids in Giza. And at the time, we
had also, I had retired. We had moved to Egypt. We have a home there. And my husband spent a
lot of time and a lot of money. What we called Back Cheese, with the paying under the table to
the Minister of Education, Minister of Culture, to do a fourth pyramid to be constructed with
piping, I don’t know if they call it, it wasn’t the PPV―PVC piping, it was metal. And he
designed that. And then a company here in Oceanside―not Oceanside,―in Irvine, “Supercolor
Photo,” were kind enough to make the model and take my husband’s design of the miniature
murals and make a cover. And we were able to have a ten-foot model that we were going, we
used in several places. In fact, we have ten models all over the world right now, including Japan.
And we participated in international conferences and things like that. And the whole idea was to
have, to have [someone enters the room, off camera] I thought I locked the door, sorry. Anyway,
the whole idea was at the end of 2010 we would have this celebration to commemorate the
closing of the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And then, what happened was,
because we had so many conflicts we ended up with a second decade, which ended at the end of
2021.
Kallas: Now all of your—you have twelve themes for your Art Miles.
Tawfilis: Mm-hmm.
Kallas: Can you share a little bit about that, and what, what people gained from doing these
murals?
Tawfilis: Sure. The first thing that we did was Peace, Unity, and Healing. And then we ended up
with the Women, because the women’s influence on art and healing. That’s where the healing
part came in. And you know when you think about peace, unity, and healing, then you talk about
women and their role in it. And then we started environment, because everybody started
complaining, and worrying about climate change. And as you know, that has a subject that has
increased so many, so much all over the world. And it’s happening. We’re all experiencing that.
And then we started doing murals in response to every human and natural disaster. That’s even
when 9/11 happened in 2001, it was a big deal and we did, like, many murals and actually
exhibited some of them on, at Ground Zero. We were there, doing the mural, at Georgetown
University on September 11. And we got sequestered into the hotel that we were staying at,
because we were doing a Children’s Environmental Health Network thing. But anyway, back to
the themes, so that’s how the environment started. We, the third one was Children’s
Environmental Health Network where they actually did a film about us there. And while we were
doing that, we ended up being, watching the Twin Towers come down. And then from there we
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started Children’s and then Fairytale and then Sports and Music, and so now we have Hero and
we had—then we started the Japanese government, or I should say our Japanese team started
doing an exchange program. They called it, they call it the International Intercultural Mural
Exchange where they do half of a mural in Japan and the other half in another country, with
another school. So, there’s four hundred forty murals for each themed. They’re all, not all five by
twelve, some of them are half sized. But our goal was to at least get to twelve miles, and then in
2008 we attempted to break the Guinness Book of World Records. But three weeks before that,
we found out that the United Arab Emirates had already done that with the longest mural in the
world. And we couldn’t surpass it, because they, they would, they did like ten-mile, not ten
miles, ten murals more than us. But, even the, the grand master, whatever they call them, that
comes to do the, to officiate measurements stuff, said ours weren’t connected, and they want a
continuous theme. So, what the, what happened with the United Arab Emirates, they did, they
did, I think at that time, like four miles, about women, and it was done for International
Women’s Day and they featured the, all the children. And all the schools did murals about the
sheikah, or the queen, I guess. And then they had to burn it, because it was done on paper, and
Islam doesn’t allow images. So, but they did break the record. Plus, it cost ten thousand dollars
to bring the guy over, and we didn’t have that kind of money. We still don’t have that kind of
money, because we do it all from our hearts, very few donations.
Kallas: And can you talk a little bit of how the initial concept of murals has evolved over the
years, compared to where you started in Bosnia, and to where you are right now with the murals.
Tawfilis: Yeah. I think the biggest change is education. We found that education has come to the
forefront because whenever, whatever thing you’re working on, it teaches you something, you
know, whether it’s fairy tales that are originally thought of by children and from their
imaginations or sports. There are―you learn what the sport’s all about. Music, the same thing.
We’ve even had music murals created while people are looking at a mural and they write music
about it. And then, or vice versa. Or when it’s in the indigenous mile. At one time we presented
a—because I was in Connecticut at the time, we had someone present the idea of doing—we
discovered there were five hundred fifty recognized tribes. And so they did a resolution at the
National Congress of American Indians, NCAI, that each tribe would contribute a mural. But we
got so busy, and then my husband passed away. We have never followed up on that. I don’t
know how long those resolutions last. But I would love to revive it. But since that time, I’ve also
discovered there’s a whole bunch of non-recognized tribes. And I think that has appealed to me
more, because I feel like, how could you not recognize a tribe? I don’t care. I know that there,
their requirements have DNA and numbers of members and whether they have a reservation or
whatever. But, it’s not accounting, some of the tribes don’t get credit for just being there, and
being there first. And they were decimated by whatever colonial tribe or―how would I
say―shouldn’t be―that’s the wrong word―colonial influence that came in and took over those
lands, even in our own wars, in the Civil War. Even before that, they, you know, the genocide of
Native Americans is something that most Americans don’t even know about. They don’t even
know about there’s so many tribes in every country that they went through the same thing. You
know, the genocide of every African nation. There’s thirty-three countries in Africa! And most
Americans don’t know that. There―you could go there, and you could say “The Dutch took over
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this country. The Italians did this country. The Brits did this.” You know. And they left their
influence, but they also started slavery, and brought it here. And then―and I think that’s why
there is a bond between a lot of Native Americans. When you―one thing I’ve even discovered
more of later in my life is how Native Americans helped so many slaves, you know, following
the Civil War. Protected them, and hid them, and intermarried, and that’s why there’s a lot of
controversy among white people about―they had this concept the Indians were “red.” First of all,
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a red person, or a yellow Chinese person, or maybe caramel, like me.
[both she and Linda chuckle] And when you think of black, kids in school when you say “These
are Africans.” They use black crayons or black paint. There are some very black people, I think.
Some countries have all shades. India has black India people from East India. And Senegal
people mostly are darker than most, you know. But there’s also a whole shades, hues of people.
But like Aki, our drummer, says “Inside we all have red blood. We all have bones.” You know,
and when we all die, you can’t tell, maybe by the―anthropologists will tell you about the skulls
and the framework and stuff like that. But color? No. Religion, you know, that’s another thing.
So, the other—to get back to your question. The other evolution has been healing. I think the
focus now is more on healing, because we have so much―what’s the word―conflicts around the
world. And then personal violence going on with school shootings and the massive massacres
with massive killings all over and accidents and natural disasters, with hurricanes and floods.
Right here in California, the fires, right here! They came right up to the back door here, you
know. And if you drive up through the mountains going to, to go buy a pie, you’re going to find
out. You drive through all the reservation areas and you see where the fires from the past―you
see those still the black, some of the trees, and there’s a big contrast with the silhouettes of those
trees and then the―now the overgrown greenery. It’s so beautiful, and you know, things like that.
So, healing has made a big difference, because when people―and what I’m really, I think, what
I’d like to share in this interview with you―is that healing isn’t just the murals that we send to
the people who have been become victims and their families of those who were killed or injured
in these horrible violent events or disasters. It’s us, ourselves. When each school shooting
happens, how many parents and people with a heart feel that pain, of, of—I can’t—every time I
hear of a school shooting, I think of those poor little kids, and I grieve for them and for their
families and for the friends and the neighbors that were there. And my first exposure to that was
actually the, the widows watching those children, and then 9/11 when the Red Cross had murals
being done all over. We have some amazing murals that came from all over the country and the
world, displaying their feelings. And one of them, one of the ones that stands out in my mind, is
Hope, Alaska did one. And it, the whole mural is the word “Hope” but inside the word “Hope”
they drew people, and a lot of native and indigenous people are in that. And then, when Sandy
Hook happened from my, where I’m from, Connecticut, I went there, and to see those little
children, you know. How can anybody go in and kill all those little tiny kindergarten kids, and
the teachers? And then what people don’t know there’s, in America, there’s a place called Besan,
near Russia, where the radicals, and the—
Kallas: Government was involved in―.
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Tawfilis: Yeah, over two hundred people, two hundred kids and teachers killed. And then again,
recently, you know, I mean we could go on and on. And every time we did a mural, it was like
once or twice a year, and now, I mean, I think in July we had three shootings, and, you know,
things we had to respond to. And actually, I’m behind! We haven’t been able to do, Massa from
the, Mahsa Imani―Amini, from the―from Iran, because we’re so busy. We just finished Ukraine,
you know. There’s just, St. Louis. All this stuff keeps happening. So, healing!
Kallas: So, part of your process in dealing with this tragedy is there’s a healing element for you
to respond to those through a mural. And you send those murals to those places, correct?
Tawfilis: Yeah. And we’ve been lucky. Sometimes we hear back, and sometimes we don’t.
Because you can’t expect everybody, every city and town, to say “Oh, gosh, all these people.”
You know, people send food and clothing. And a lot of people do art and murals and flowers
and, and stuff like that. So, I know, you know, part of giving, what people don’t understand is we
give and we do murals from our heart. We don’t expect a lot in return. What I expect is when
people paint a mural to send that they are sharing that same emotion that I feel that they want
people to know that we’re thinking of them, and that we’re sending our prayers and good wishes.
I know people think that a lot of non-governmental organizations do things for money. Well,
we’re, we’re a great example of “No” [laughs], because―
Kallas: Non-profit.
Tawfilis: Yeah, we are a true non-profit. And my husband and I and a lot of people have
contributed. We don’t have an overhead staff that we, we pay for. We can’t. We just don’t, you
know. Thank goodness we have good―there’s so many―I focus on the good people and the good
things that come. If I started thinking about what I have or what I don’t, you know, what I don’t
have, with other organizations that get grants, and they have sponsors and philanthropists look at
them, I would never be able to do what I do. At this age, I’m just now starting―we have a
Foundation that we’re working on, and my goal is to finally, if I realize it, if I want to have a
legacy in the name, in the memory of my husband who gave up his career, and out of my true
care and I say, I want to say concern for people who are suffering, and indigenous people, I think
that’s why I want it here. That’s what brought my here. I think the Creator, whoever your Creator
is, my Creator is a number of spiritual things, that I saw this place that we’re sitting in right now
before we opened the Muramid and Artists Alley. And my husband said “It’s too small. It looks
like a house!” And it was full of crazy stuff that had been here before. So, it was neglected and
smelly. It didn’t have high ceilings when we peeked in the windows, and he, he just kind of
passed it on. But, something called out to me in this place. And I remember driving around one
day after I knew I had to leave Artists Alley, because he passed away. I hadn’t, didn’t have the
infrastructure and the help that I do now with Aki and his drumming and neighbors and friends
and people that have helped put this thing together. I remember driving around and it still had a
For Rent style on here―sign―and I parked the car and I called the guy and the property manager.
And it was still in the same shape that it had been, I guess, six years before. So, this place had
been empty for a while. I think maybe something might have happened in between, but I doubt
it, because judging from when we did get inside, and there was a lot of feces, dead animals, all
12
Transcribed by Melissa Martin
�TAWFILIS, JOANNE
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-10-31
kinds of stuff. But I can feel this place. When we took down the ceiling, because it was
that―what do they call it―insulation hanging down, and I looked at the wood, and I realized
“Wow, this place was here a long time ago.” I didn’t know the history of the place, but I’ve been
told it was the original general store for the Mission.
Kallas: Oh.
Tawfilis: And then when I found out about the Mission and, you know, being a Catholic, in a
former life, I thought “Wow, this is pretty cool!” Then I remember reading, like other things in
Connecticut, that there were people here before the Mission came, and I got really passionate
about “I’m going to put it right there.” And I want to dedicate the place to the Luiseño, because I
found out that they are the people that this belongs to. And everybody that comes in the door,
every single person, I can’t think of one that hasn’t come in the door for the first time and goes
“Wow! This place, it has such great karma. It feels warm and friendly, and it’s inviting and it’s
good to be in here and it’s so creative.” And I went [claps her hands together] “Yes! That’s what
we’re all about.” And so, I think we are an important piece of the history of this place because I
feel like an archive in here, of some sort. And the Mural Project has found its home, and I think
that’s an important part of being the history up here in the North County, to have a project that’s
global in scope that has been participated in by over a half a million people from over a hundred
countries. To land in a place that is based on what everybody should know about indigenous
communities. My hope is that―and I started out with my husband and I both said, you know,
before we wanted to feature different cultures, because we felt that Americans weren’t quite
educated enough to understand the diversity and the richness of cultures from other people, and
other countries, including this country, you know. There’s so many―and I don’t want to use the
term “white”―but there’s a lot of American, white people who don’t understand that they came
here from other countries as well. And in their own country, if they look back in their roots,
they’ll find out that they come in different shades as well.
Kallas: Mm-hmm.
Tawfilis: And that the stolen land―you know, recently I watched a documentary about Alabama
where the last slave ship came in and it was against the law to even bring slaves after 1860 or
something like that. But it was one ship’s captain who said “I can show you how to do it, and I’m
going to prove it.” And he did it out of rebellion and brought a hundred and twenty slaves from
Africa, made them get off the ship, near Mobile, Alabama, and in the water, the swamp, they got
on to the land. I understand they stayed there for a few weeks and then they divided them into
three different plantations. But they burned that ship in that. They said they wanted to get rid of
the evidence. Well, that was a genocide in and off itself, of history. And now after four hundred
years or whatever, they’re finding all these remnants. You can go anywhere, even here. When we
started doing the back, we found a cross in the yard that, that must have been buried in the
ground from whatever was here before. And I always wondered what happened and what’s going
on with all this gentrification and the new building over there. It hurts my heart. And I talked to a
Luiseño member who is one of our drummers, a woman, she said “every time she goes by” and
she’s a school bus driver, she said “it hurts my heart.” Because she knows there’s another thing
13
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�TAWFILIS, JOANNE
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-10-31
covering it up and erasing part of the history of this place. And I’m really sorry that, you know,
recently the newspaper said “the wave just got approved with the valley over there, and the rest
of the valley. And I live in a place that I look at that, and I, I could cry just thinking about it.
Right across the street from Pablo Tac Elementary School. They’re going to build a wave park
like we need one so close to the ocean? I mean, come on. Commercialization is just really
destroying the natural history of many places including right here where we live. So, I’m hoping
that the owner of the properties here will never let this place become that wave even though I can
see a beautiful little old town here. You know, I like to see more cultural things happen here.
And I’d love to see the cultural district expand from downtown to where the real history is here. I
mean, uh, it’s to me almost sinful that we don’t put more emphasis on what the history of this
area, of Oceanside, is all about. It’s all on the front, at the waterfront. It’s all commercial. They
even destroyed the waterfront in my eyes, by putting all that, the hotels and stuff.
Kallas: Well, in trying to put it all together here, in breadth and in depth is community building.
Tawfilis: Correct.
Kallas: Through the murals, through the other work you’ve done. It seems to be the main theme
of your life, and now you have the Center. And doesn’t it also have something to do with
UNESCO?
Tawfilis: Yes! We recently became the UNESCO Center for Peace for all of California and Baja.
And with that I think will help enhance my opportunity and all the people that work with us to
bring more cultural education and healing to this area, and to educate people about what real
peace begins with me, and our neighbors and our families. And then, you know, I know this all
sounds very philosophical but it’s true, you know. And, um, I think we have a pretty good mayor
who supports local people more than others that I’ve seen. Maybe it’s because I see her out there
in the community more than I’ve seen other mayors do. And I know that she is of Mexican
descent, but I also believe that Mexicans have a lot of indigenous people here as well.
Kallas: Right.
Tawfilis: And when I talk about Mexicans, I don’t mean that they are the invaders of the people
that took over. They too have been, you know, victims of genocide. All this belonging to part of
that. But the first people here from all the history that I have been able to do my own research on,
were the Luiseños. And so, my passion and dedication is going to be based on that. I am going to
be looking at other cultures and introducing the people of the world to our local community
through this center. But this is―This year, the Valley Arts Festival will feature my dedication to
that. As I have this painting behind me. It’s kind of weird that we have this Mexican lady, native,
behind me, and then my dancer, and then I am going to do a dedicated mural to the Spirit of the
Valley, and to the tribal captain and a woman who happens to be his sister who I think is, in my
eyes, the official historian of just about everything that could ever happen to the Luiseños here.
And I feel very fortunate, um, coming from where I do, and what I did in Connecticut with the
Mashantucket Pequots to see them grow and have the best museum in my eyes, in the whole
world, indigenous or otherwise because it’s interactive. To be with people that are still alive that
I can talk to and interact with that live right here in this community. So…
14
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�TAWFILIS, JOANNE
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-10-31
Kallas: So, going forward, what, um, what other projects are on the horizon for you.
Tawfilis: Well―
Kallas: Besides what you just talked about, are there other avenues that you’re going to pursue?
Tawfilis: Oh, thank you for asking. Because one way of documenting history is books. So, I’m
writing, actually there’ll be four books that I hope will be coming from me. But interacting with
other people, we’re doing, taking the murals now, what am I going to do with twelve miles of
murals? My goal is to convince the Smithsonian that they need to take these, because to me it’s a
visual documentation of two decades or more of history by the people and for the people. This is
their words, not some author who wrote a book about the history of something. It’s from all over
the world, and it addresses social issues everywhere. So, what I’m hoping to do is we have a
Foundation that we’re going to be―we are part of, called the Endangered Planet Foundation, and
our project will, will be embracing that and taking the mural images and trying to create practical
products from the mural images and raising money through the sales of textiles and books and
things like that, tangible things that can go into a fund that will keep this project going, and long
after I’m gone. Hopefully until then I can help form a solid board and we can end up hiring a
staff which we’ve never had, to carry on this project, because I think it’s something that can
continue. Mural art has been growing all over the world. The cave men have come a long way
from their images to creating murals not just on walls but on canvas and ours is mobile. I wanted
to have a voice for people that could be shared, not stuck on a wall that you’re never going to―
I’m maybe some people will never get to Machu Pichu or to the Egyptian temples and pyramids
or caves where we have here in the United States with etchings and things on them. So, this way
we can bring people closer together. So that’s the future, is I want to leave a legacy and because I
know what works. What other non-profit organization can survive for almost twenty-five years
with no money? I’ll tell you why. Because people believe in it, and we believe in it with all our
hearts and souls. And, as nearing my seventy-seventh birthday, I bypassed seventy-five because
of Covid. I think we have proof in the pudding, so, yeah, that’s the plan, is to continue.
Kallas: And speaking from personal experience, I’ve actually experienced the healing process
and that sense of community where we’re all working on the same thing at the same time.
There’s just so much unity in that and it’s very, you could really internalize that.
Tawfilis: Well you know the big―bottom line is mural art gives you a chance to express yourself
even with a group, because as you know doing quilt, we do that kind of style with murals as well,
in different forms or whatever. You get to express yourself individually but you do it with a
group and it brings you all closer together, and in doing so you talk to each other, and the bottom
line is you find out how much more we have in common than we have in differences. Which
sounds like a cliché, but boy it’s true.
Kallas: It’s very true.
Tawfilis: We actually do it. And we make ourselves, I mean, better people because we get to
know and appreciate other people’s opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. We hear what
they’re thinking and feeling, and we learn a lot from each other. And I think that’s how peace is
15
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�TAWFILIS, JOANNE
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-10-31
going to happen, when we begin to open our minds and our hearts to understanding that we’re
different but we all have the same basic common needs. We all want to eat. We all want to be
able to have a home over our heads and feel safe. And the richness of having other cultures
influencing your life―it’s like if you’re only going to eat American hot dogs and hamburgers,
what a boring life that would be, right? [Linda laughs] I always think of it simplistically like that
because you end up going “Gee, I like Thai food. I like Chinese food. I like Italian food.
Whatever.” Well, that comes from people, you know. And so, the blend and the magic of seeing
the dancing from, and the music, the different forms of music, and you can be native American
and play rock-n-roll music. I happen to know somebody who can do that and do it well. Or a
Filipino that can sing beautiful, musical songs. Or the homeless people with the choir that was
started right here from North County. I mean I think that’s a great, you know, cultural
contribution to history. So.
Kallas: Well, Joanne, thank you so much. It’s been an honor and a privilege to do this interview
with you. And I want to repeat something I recently told a mutual friend about you, that I truly
think you are a work of art.
Tawfilis: Oh, my goodness.
Kallas: And I just thank you so much.
Tawfilis: Well, thank you. And I also want to say that I did get a PhD at the age of 71. So, my
message to all those who think that you never learned and you can’t earn a degree as you get
older, you’re wrong. You can get it, and mine was honorary, and I’m really proud of it now
because I used to think―I’m very humble about it because I do understand how much hard work
goes in to doing a dissertation. I almost got there. I could have done that, but I traveled so much I
couldn’t finish. But understanding that when you do a life’s work dedicated to something, I think
it’s deserved. I’m saying that today for the first time, that looking back on my career, I did earn
it.
Kallas: Yes, you did.
Tawfilis: And I’m very happy that my, if my dad were alive and I received a big award when I
retired. I got the highest award you could get as a civilian and they gave me miniature medal. It’s
from the military. As well as a big one. And when I went to Arlington I put that miniature
beneath my dad’s cross at Arlington National Cemetery. And I, when I got my PhD, my first trip
to Washington, D.C., afterwards I went directly there, and I told my dad “Guess what, dad? You
wanted me to get an education, and I got a Ph.D.”
Kallas: Wow, what a great note to close on. Thank you again. I really appreciate this.
Tawfilis: Thank you. [Looking off camera to someone else] Did I put you to sleep?
Unknown male voice: No, that’s a wrap.
16
Transcribed by Melissa Martin
�TAWFILIS, JOANNE
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-10-31
GLOSSARY:
Aki (pg.11,12)
Ambassador Chaudry (pg.8)
Americorps (pg.4)
Arlington National Cemetery (pg.16)
Army Management Staff College (pg.4)
Artist’s Alley (pg.2)
Art Miles (pg.2,8)
Back Cheese (pg.9)
Base closure team (pg.3)
Besan (near Russia) (pg.11)
Bosnian Women’s Initiative (pg.5)
Broadway Pier (pg.2)
Chicano Park (pg.3)
Chief Joseph (pg.3)
Children’s Environmental Health Network (pg.9)
Colville (pg.3)
Endangered Planet Foundation (pg.15)
Foulad (pg.8)
Friendship Program (pg.2)
Gigiri (pg.5)
International Atomic Energy Agency (pg.4,5)
International Decade for the Culture of Peace (pg.8,9)
International Intercultural Mural Exchange (pg.10)
Kettle Falls (pg.3)
Luiseño (pg.13,14)
Mahsa Amini (pg.12)
Mashantucket Pequots (pg.14)
17
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�TAWFILIS, JOANNE
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-10-31
Mural Museum (pg.2)
Muramid Arts and Cultural Center (pg.9)
Muramid Pyramid (pg.9)
National Congress of American Indians (pg.10)
Nespelem (pg.3)
Orange Coast College (pg.6)
Pablo Tac Elementary School (pg.14)
“Painting Outside the Lines” (pg.6)
Peace, Unity, Healing (pg.9)
Sergeant Shriver (pg.4)
Srebrenica (pg.5)
“Stem to Steam” (pg.6)
Submarine School (pg.2)
Supercolor Photo (pg.9)
Tuzla (pg.6)
UNESCO Center for Peace (pg.14)
United Nation Environment Program, Nairobi (pg.4)
Vista Volunteer Program (pg.4)
18
Transcribed by Melissa Martin
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Transcripts
Description
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Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview transcript, October 31, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances.
Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Joanne Tawfilis
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Linda Kallas
Melissa Martin
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-10-31
Subject
The topic of the resource
Art Miles Project
Bosnian Women's Initiative
International Atomic Energy Agency
Military base closures
Mural painting and decoration
Muramid Art and Cultural Center (Oceanside, Calif.)
Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina
Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995
Unesco
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Women artists
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Oceanside (Calif.)
Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Joanne Tawfilis
License
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<a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a>
Format
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text
Identifier
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TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_transcription
Activists and activism
Art and artists
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Politics and governance
Women's experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/bfc2d82b5e9047e6b1800bd05678e389.pdf
bd0290ddc910011850030dbfa284a3ab
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Transcripts
Description
An account of the resource
Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Rafael, Joel. Interview transcript, August 20, 2025.
Description
An account of the resource
Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part one interview, Rafael discusses his early musical influences, his participation in the 1960s counterculture movement, and the beginnings of his success in the music industry.
Creator
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Joel Rafael
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jennifer Fabbi
Date
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2025-08-20
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Rights Holder
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Joel Rafael
License
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<a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a>
Format
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text
Identifier
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RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20_transcript
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Escondido (Calif.)
Chicago (Ill.)
Covina (Calif.)
West Covina (Calif.)
Portland (Oregon)
Seattle (Wash.)
Fallbrook (Calif.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Songwriters -- United States
Folk music
Counterculture -- United States
Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967
Art and artists
Community history