10
10
208
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jason Beyer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
James Robert Forster II
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer)
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ForsterJamesRobert_BeyerJason_2022-11-22_access.xml
Interview Keyword
This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record.
Veteran United States Air Force;Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975;Korea;aircraft mechanic;Staff Sergeant
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
6.0 Forster II, James Robert. Interview November 22nd, 2024. SC027-070 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran United States Air Force ; Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 ; Korea ; aircraft mechanic ; Staff Sergeant James Robert Forster II Jason Beyer Moving Image ForsterJamesRobert_BeyerJason_2022-11-22_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ec56e576cd1e3f6843c0218021dd47d3.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 69 Military Background Forster served in the U.S. Air Force and attained his highest rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. He served in Korea during the Vietnam War. United States Air Force ; E5 Staff Sergeant ; Korea ; Vietnam War 0 91 Youth and Enlistment Raised in Wichita, Kansas then San Jose, California, Forster had a high draft number, so he enlisted into the Air Force for aircraft maintenance training. Wichita (Kan.) ; San Jose (Calif.) ; West Valley College ; Kenny's Shoe Store ; newspaper delivery ; enlistment ; aircraft maintenance ; training 0 201 Training and Promotions As a crew chief and flight mechanic, Forster did maintenance for many aircraft. He also recalls his training instructors and promotions. crew chief ; C-97 ; C-121 ; C-47 ; flight mechanic ; McClellan Air Force Base ; Sacramento (Calif.) ; wing commander ; 552nd Air Control Wing ; airborne early warning and control ; North American Aerospace Defense Command ; instructor ; promotion ; Airman First Class ; Korea 0 431 Adapting to the Military Lifestyle Forster recalls his challenging unaccompanied tour to Korea, which strained his marriage and included harsh weather. He appreciated the military’s reliable chain of command. Forster tells a story about refusing to let a colonel fly his airplane and how the chain of command supported his decision. unaccompanied tour ; Korea ; Sacramento (Calif.) ; winter ; monsoon ; chain of command ; non-commissioned officer ; full bird colonel 0 615 Reflections on Serving in Korea during the Vietnam War Forster was part of the replenishment of relieving the Air National Guard from Korea. Most of his work entailed flying passengers and mail. In hindsight, he reflects on how much better he had it than the aircraft mechanics in Vietnam. Navy ; USS Pueblo ; North China Sea ; Air National Guard ; Korea ; Frontier Airlines ; Braniff Airlines ; American Airlines ; Transamerica ; Douglas AC-47 Spooky ; Agent Orange ; Osan (Korea) ; Kunsan (Korea) ; Gwangju (Korea) ; Daegu (Korea) 0 749 Camaraderie and Recreation Forster’s fondest memories with his military comrades were in the bar they set up in the barracks day room. The bar was their main place to recreate when off duty, although some did Taekwondo and other activities. He also mimics a Korean houseboy who took care of the common areas. camaraderie ; friendship ; non-commissioned officer ; Air Force Times ; flight engineers ; flight mechanics ; day room ; barracks ; bar ; the Airman's Club ; beer ; recreation ; Taekwondo ; Korean ; houseboy 0 909 In-Flight Emergencies Forster recalls flying over Japan at Mount Fujiyama in a C-47. It was during a severe winter storm with strong winds, and he almost ran out of fuel. in-flight emergencies ; pre-flight ; Mount Fuji (Japan) ; C-47 ; Tokyo (Japan) ; wind ; storm ; winter 0 1007 Socializing with Locals, Sea Survival School, and Interactions with the Second Chinese Air Force in Taiwan Forster had great experiences with local people. While in Sea Survival School in Okinawa at Kadena Air Base, he saw flying missions to Vietnam, including an SR-71. He also recalls flying to Taiwan to pick up a C-47. He was very impressed by the “Second Chinese Air Force.” Japan ; Okinawa (Japan) ; Korea ; locals ; Sea Survival School ; Kadena Air Base ; SR-71 ; inspect and repair as necessary ; Taipei (Taiwan) ; Taichung (Taiwan) ; Second Chinese Air Force ; gunship ; C-47 ; C-119 ; C-130 0 1315 Ending Service, Returning Home, Readjusting to Civilian Life, Work, and the G.I. Bill Forster drove across the country from MacDill Air Force Base to San Jose, California. He recalls returning home during the height of the Vietnam War and the anti-war movement. In his words, “There was no welcome for the returning veteran.” Nevertheless, he went back to school, met his wife, and got an MBA using the G.I. Bill. He worked at an insurance company and had a Farmers Insurance agency for 10 years. MacDill Air Force Base ; Tampa (Fla.) ; San Jose (Calif.) ; parents ; veteran ; protest ; college ; sociology ; wife ; marriage ; Farmers Insurance ; insurance agency ; G.I. Bill ; National University ; Master of Business Administration 0 1484 Continuing Friendships and Veterans Organizations Forster lost track of most friends from military service. He joined the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) but left because they could not decide whether he was an Army veteran or an Air Force veteran. friendship ; Portland (Or.) ; Veterans of Foreign Wars ; Army veteran ; Air Force veteran 0 1532 Reflections on Life After Military Service Forster talks about his wife, his children, his grandchildren, and his travels with family. He says military service taught him that “your word is your bond.” CSU San Marcos ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Sapphire Princess Cruise ; Caribbean ; Disney World ; COVID ; El Cajon (Calif.) ; school 0 1656 What People Should Know About Veterans and a Message for Future Generations Forster encourages anyone enlisting in the military to be open minded. He says military service can include many positive experiences, like travel and education. Forster recounts how his training could have an aircraft maintenance career, but he ultimately chose the insurance business. military ; veterans ; Air Force ; Korea ; Okinawa (Japan) ; Taipei (Taiwan) ; United Airlines ; Chicago (Ill.) ; aircraft mechanic ; insurance business 0 Oral history James Robert Forster II served in Korea as a crew chief and flight mechanic for the U.S. Air Force during the Vietnam War and reached his highest rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. Forster recalled the challenges of an unaccompanied tour to Korea, the strains it put on his first marriage, as well as his return home during the height of the anti-war movement. He praised the education and experiences he gained from military service, including travel, recreation, training, and the G.I. Bill. After military service, Forster worked in the insurance business and met his wife at university. He reflected on his family, travels after retirement, and the life lessons he learned from military service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:06.325 My name is Jason Victor Beyer. I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing James Robert Forester II. Today's date is Friday, November 22, 2024. We are located inside the Kellogg Library at California State University San Marcos, located at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92096. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview are the interviewer, Jason Victor Beyer, the interviewee, James Robert Forster II, Marilyn Huerta, and camera operator, Adel Bautista. Today's purpose of the interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name, first, middle, and last name. 00:01:06.325 --> 00:01:09.344 James Robert Forster II. 00:01:09.344 --> 00:01:10.775 Your branch of service. 00:01:10.775 --> 00:01:13.025 United States Air Force. 00:01:13.025 --> 00:01:15.775 The highest ranked you attained. 00:01:15.775 --> 00:01:18.015 E5 Staff Sergeant. 00:01:18.015 --> 00:01:23.314 And the war or conflict that you served during your time of service. 00:01:23.314 --> 00:01:31.685 During Vietnam—actually in Korea, but that was during the Vietnam conflict. 00:01:31.685 --> 00:01:38.105 Thank you. So today we'll begin with your biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:38.105 --> 00:01:40.215 Wichita, Kansas. 00:01:40.215 --> 00:01:44.515 What was life like in Wichita, Kansas for you? 00:01:44.515 --> 00:01:59.155 I attended elementary school till fourth grade, and then we moved from Wichita, Kansas for a job transfer for my father to San Jose, California. 00:01:59.155 --> 00:02:04.245 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:02:04.245 --> 00:02:11.444 Yes, my uncle, my father, my grandfather—each of them served in the military. 00:02:11.444 --> 00:02:16.175 Did that play a role in your joining the military? 00:02:16.175 --> 00:02:39.405 I was a student at West Valley Junior College (West Valley College) and not doing well academically. The draft came around in '67 and my number was high, so rather than be drafted I joined on delayed enlistment into the Air Force so I could get training. 00:02:39.405 --> 00:02:44.145 Did you hold any jobs prior to entering the military service? 00:02:44.145 --> 00:02:54.155 Yes, I sold shoes for Kenny's Shoe Store and delivered newspapers—those kind of things. 00:02:54.155 --> 00:03:04.544 When and why did you choose to join the military? So you said you weren't drafted, but why specifically did you choose the branch of the Air Force? 00:03:04.544 --> 00:03:21.395 So I could have aircraft maintenance schooling. I spent nine months in tech school after basic training to learn aircraft maintenance. 00:03:21.395 --> 00:03:33.544 For your early days of service, what is your most vivid memory, both the best and worst parts of training of your time during school in the Air Force. 00:03:33.544 --> 00:04:07.034 I had to learn different aircraft in their operations—the engine, the airframes. As a crew chief, I was responsible for all of those things to ensure that they worked well. I worked on C-97s, I worked on C-121s, I worked on C-47s, and flew for two years on C-47s as a flight mechanic. 00:04:07.034 --> 00:04:12.525 What was your first assignment like after basic training? 00:04:12.525 --> 00:04:55.415 I was sent to McClellan Air Force Base in Sacramento, California, and I was assigned to the Wing Commander of the 552nd Airborne early warning and control wing's squadron commander. So I was a crew chief on that aircraft. It was different than the airborne early warning that the C-121s did for NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command), but all we did was make sure that that airplane is ready when the wing commander wanted to go somewhere. So we spent a lot of time cleaning and prepping. 00:04:55.415 --> 00:05:00.095 Do you recall your instructors while you were in training? 00:05:00.095 --> 00:05:03.555 Not by name. 00:05:03.555 --> 00:05:05.884 Do you recall what they were like? 00:05:05.884 --> 00:05:31.204 They were demanding, because what we did people's lives depended upon, and they wanted to ensure that we as the airmen understood how important it was for the aircraft to be air worthy and safe for flight. That's what we were taught and instilled in us. 00:05:31.204 --> 00:05:42.485 Did you qualify with equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radios, weapons? If so, what was that training with that equipment like? 00:05:42.485 --> 00:06:19.574 We did total—(Forster coughs)—total airframe, from ensuring that the aircraft was ready for flight—it was fueled, it was oiled and it was pre-flighted so that when the pilots came to the aircraft, it was ready to go—as close as it could be. 00:06:19.574 --> 00:06:25.105 Did you receive any promotions, and if so, could you tell me about them? 00:06:25.105 --> 00:07:11.704 I was promoted to Airman First Class probably when I went—when I was assigned to Korea. That's E4, and you have to pass a test. You have to demonstrate competency on the equipment, understanding of the aircraft system and systems. And then once you've done that test, then the promotion is awarded, but it's not awarded until you've earned it. So each promotion was based on merit. 00:07:11.704 --> 00:07:17.264 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adopt to. 00:07:17.264 --> 00:07:21.074 Unaccompanied tour to Korea. 00:07:21.074 --> 00:07:23.764 Why do you think that was? 00:07:23.764 --> 00:08:07.735 I just got married in Sacramento, and it was my first time overseas. And, unaccompanied tours are hard on both parties of the relationship. It was—the work in Korea, it has a severe winter and a severe monsoon season in the spring. And operating aircraft under harsh conditions is a challenge all in and of itself. 00:08:07.735 --> 00:08:13.514 So combined with the weather conditions, it created an even harder hardship— 00:08:13.514 --> 00:08:16.074 Yeah. Yeah. 00:08:16.074 --> 00:08:21.865 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adopt to. 00:08:21.865 --> 00:08:36.375 I liked the hierarchy. You know that the chain of command works and if you follow the chain of command that everything will go smooth. 00:08:36.375 --> 00:08:46.375 What were your interactions like with people you encountered while you were doing your stateside service? 00:08:46.375 --> 00:10:15.904 Each of the NCOs (non-commissioned officers) that were teaching the aircraft maintenance and the specifics of it were concerned about the airman's capability of teaching and learning complex systems and working within a framework to make the aircraft airworthy. And I took that extremely seriously. There were times when the aircraft was not ready to go. And in aircraft maintenance records, you can red "x" it if there's a safety issue. I did—had a full bird colonel in Korea who wanted to take my airplane for some kind of flight. I told him, "Sir, you cannot take this airplane. It's grounded." And I—the reasons for it were in the aircraft maintenance records. He said, "Well, I wanna take it." And I said, "Fine, let's go to the wing commander. We'll go to the wing commander, and if you can convince him that you can take this aircraft, then it's safe even though I told you it's not safe—you go right ahead." He did not go to the wing commander. (Forster coughs.) Excuse me. 00:10:15.904 --> 00:10:21.924 So you served in Korea during while the Vietnam War was happening? 00:10:21.924 --> 00:12:29.683 Yes. The Navy lost a ship called the Pueblo in the North China Sea. And the military was staffed by the Air National Guard. So I was part of the replenishment of relieving the Air National Guard from Korea so they could go back to their jobs in industry. I met pilots from Frontier Airlines, Braniff Airlines, American Airlines, Transamerica—and that's why I went to Korea. I didn't realize at the time that it was a blessing that I was sent to Korea rather than to Vietnam, because my aircraft in Vietnam had a name called Spooky. It was mounted with a Gatling gun, a .50 caliber machine gun, and a spotlight in the back cargo door, and it flew night missions only after Agent Orange had been defoliated. I didn't know at the time that I had a much better position—job position—than, you know, just—I was just flying passengers and mail from Osan to Kunsan to Gwangju to Daegu, like an airliner route. So we did that in the morning and had lunch in Daegu and then flew back in the afternoon. That was basically what we did. But, you know, I didn't realize, like I said before, that the—(Forster coughs)—duty in Korea, while harsh—(coughs)—was way different than what I would've experienced had I've been sent to Vietnam with all my other fellow aircraft mechanics. 00:12:29.683 --> 00:12:39.865 What was your—did you create any friendships or camaraderie with people that you served with while in Korea? 00:12:39.865 --> 00:13:31.000 Yes. Each person you get to be friends with and you learn who's friendly, you know? And the senior NCOs were really good. We had a crew of flight engineers, or flight mechanics, who—they were called—we were called the Bush Airline. And I gave you a copy of the article that was in the Air Force Times, talking about the Bush Airline. We just talked about the mission that we did in Korea, and, um (long pause)— 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:32.000 —Um— 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:34.835 —I just drew blank. Go ahead. Ask me another question— 00:13:34.835 --> 00:13:40.065 —No worries. What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty? 00:13:40.065 --> 00:14:34.225 Oh! In our barracks, we had a day room, and we set up a bar in that day room. And that picture that I gave you—of me with the Olympia beer can—I was helping run the bar in the barracks. So whenever we were not flying and not scheduled to work, we were able to drink right there. We didn't have to go to the Airman's Club. We had our own thing, and we stocked it with beer, and that's that kind of thing. It was an off duty place to recreate, I guess. Some of the guys went to Taekwondo, some of us just did other odd activities. 00:14:34.225 --> 00:14:40.000 Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events during your off time? 00:14:40.000 --> 00:15:09.845 Well, there were so many amazing events at the bar. You know, you have to send people home—say, No, you have to go to your bunk. You can't stay here anymore (Forster laughs). But we had a Korean houseboy who took care of the common areas, and he took care of our bar. And he says, "You keep it clean" (Forster mimics accents, Beyer and Forster laugh). 00:15:09.845 --> 00:15:23.000 When you would fly on missions or in the aircraft, was there anything that you did for good luck while you were—before or after the flight? Or did it just become common that— 00:15:23.000 --> 00:16:47.404 —It's common. You do the pre-flight, you ensure that the aircraft is capable, and then you just go. We did have in-flight emergencies on several occasions. One time we were flying over Japan at Mount Fujiyama, and the wind was really severe. And the aircraft that—C-47 doesn't fly very fast. Maybe a hundred knots. You know, it's not much more than a hundred knots. And the winds were 80 knots, so we weren't making much ground speed. And the aircraft—you're flying at 10,000 feet, and at the top ceiling, and the mountain is higher than where you're flying. And when we landed in Tokyo, that particular flight, I dipped the tanks and we had, like, a very small amount of fuel. I don't know the exact amount, but it was almost out of fuel. So, but that was a severe winter and severe storm, and we flew right through it. 00:16:47.404 --> 00:17:03.365 So, what were your interactions like with the local cultures and the people you encountered while you were in Japan ; Okinawa, Japan ; or in Korea? 00:17:03.365 --> 00:21:55.865 The local people were great. Let's see, we'll talk about—in Japan, they brought us—the base flight brought us our fuel, our oil, our in-flight meals. And they're real accommodating, you know? Whatever you want—they bring you hot coffee, whatever, out to the flight line. In Okinawa, we—because I was flying people and over water, you had to go to Sea Survival School. So I was at Sea Survival School in Okinawa at Kadena Air Base. They—(Forster coughs, long pause). When the Sea Survival School was going on, part of it was we were dropped in the ocean in one-man life rafts. And the shark repellent is discharged around your life rafts, and you're left there for, I think it was eight hours—it seemed like forever. But the most important part about that is I was able to observe aircraft operations from Kadena Air Base. They were flying missions to Vietnam from Kadena. I saw an SR-71, which the military never admitted existed until recently. If you wanna see an SR-71, you have to go to the aerospace museum. That's where one is available for you to see. But they would—it just had two tails, and they would bring it out of the revetment, and bring (it) to the end of the runway. And they did very little run up time. They didn't want anybody to be able to see that aircraft, because obviously they didn't want it to be known that it existed. So they do—(Forster coughs)—a short run up, and then take off and stand it on its tail. And it was out of sight—less than a minute, just gone. And I found out later that those were flying bombing runs to Vietnam. (Forster coughs.) So then, another time—that was the Sea Survival School. Another time we went to pick up an airplane from the Second Chinese Air Force I.R.A.N. (Inspect and Repair As Necessary). It's done in Taipei, Taichung—or "Taichay," Taichung—but Taipei. Anyhow, the Second Chinese Air Force did extensive overhauls for military aircraft. When we flew in there, we went in to pick up one C-47. That was not a gunship, just one of ours. And I saw a whole line of C-47 gunships, C-119 gunships, and C-130 gunships that's a sign that the Second Chinese Air Force was doing—it's a major overhaul. They take everything off of the engine, they—engines off—and then they put it back together, and they have really high maintenance standards. When we got the engine and engine runup after it came out of the inspection, there was no oil leaks on—a recip (reciprocating) engine is notorious for a lot of oil leaks, not a little bit, but it is always leaking something somewhere. And the Second Chinese Air Force did such a good job that we had clean engines—when brought it up, opened the cowling up, was clean. Our engine people rarely did work that good. You know, so I have a great deal of respect for the people from the maintenance facility at the Second Chinese Air Force. 00:21:55.865 --> 00:22:02.045 Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:22:02.045 --> 00:22:20.105 I was at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, Florida, getting an "early out" to go to school. I drove cross country from MacDill Air Force Base back to San Jose, California. 00:22:20.105 --> 00:22:21.884 So you returned home? 00:22:21.884 --> 00:22:25.144 I returned to my parents' house, yeah. 00:22:25.144 --> 00:22:28.983 How were you received by your family and community when you— 00:22:28.983 --> 00:23:54.743 —By my family, fine. By the community and not for (redacted)—excuse my language. I have a tendency to be pretty frank. There was no welcome for the returning veteran. None. You know, it was at the height of the Vietnam War, the protests were going on, and I was going back to college, and I ended up in a sociology class called, Introduction to Marriage and Family. That was the only class that I could register for. And, having gone through a messy divorce while I was in the service, I was not a real joiner. You know, I was good time guy, but I didn't want anything to do with serious things. And, I ended up with—the marriage and family instructor had the class divided into groups, and they had one group with six women and me, and I ended up in that group and met my wife there. We will be married 52 years on December 9th. So, it stuck. 00:23:54.743 --> 00:24:03.265 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you go back to work? You said you went to school. What did you do after school? 00:24:03.265 --> 00:24:24.414 I worked for an insurance company for like almost 10 years. I trained insurance agents. And then I went into my own insurance agency. I had a Farmers Insurance agency for 10 years. 00:24:24.414 --> 00:24:28.000 Did the GI Bill affect you while you were going to school? Did that help you go to— 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:28.664 —Yeah— 00:24:28.664 --> 00:24:28.674 —school? 00:24:28.674 --> 00:24:44.025 Yeah. Yeah, I went to National University, completed my—what was left of my VA, and completed my MBA on the GI Bill. That was what, '78? 00:24:44.025 --> 00:24:50.194 Did you continue any friendships after this service, and if so, for how long? 00:24:50.194 --> 00:25:04.105 One of my friends is still in Portland, and I've lost track with almost everybody else. 00:25:04.105 --> 00:25:07.243 Did you join any veterans organizations? 00:25:07.243 --> 00:25:32.144 I joined the VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars). But when the VFW couldn't seem to get their act together, and they couldn't decide whether I was an Army veteran or an Air Force veteran, I stopped doing business with them (Forster laughs). I said, If you don't know who I am or where I come from, I don't need to be here paying you dues (laughs). 00:25:32.144 --> 00:25:41.154 How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:25:41.154 --> 00:27:09.605 That's—that's a big bunch (laughs). My service affected my life. I always had strong beliefs. I was fortunate enough to meet a strong woman who was able to help me in my shortcomings. We raised two kids together, one of which graduated from here (CSU San Marcos) in 2005. The other son is a tax auditor for the city of San Diego. And, we travel together. We were just recently on a Sapphire Princess Cruise to the Caribbean. We had a ten day cruise, and then we went two days to Disney World. And the kids are really important, and we just—our first granddaughter was born during COVID time. She's five years old, and she just started private school in El Cajon. I don't know if she'll ever go to a public school again. But— 00:27:09.605 --> 00:27:15.105 What are some life lessons you learned from your military service. 00:27:15.105 --> 00:27:36.694 About, your word is your bond. You need to be accountable for the things that you say, and you need to stand by your words and be complete with everyone that you deal with. 00:27:36.694 --> 00:27:46.855 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view or hear this interview? 00:27:46.855 --> 00:28:42.505 I would like everyone to realize that when you go into the military or you go into an unfamiliar situation and you go with an open mind and an open heart, you're going to learn things that may not be in the book. They may not be—(Forster coughs)—what you think you should be, but you need to listen to your heart, I guess. But you need to learn from people who offer their knowledge. And it may not always make sense. It's important to be open to new opportunities and apply yourself. 00:28:42.505 --> 00:28:58.204 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of your military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never had before? 00:28:58.204 --> 00:29:01.095 No, I don't think so. 00:29:01.095 --> 00:29:05.414 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:29:05.414 --> 00:30:29.144 That they are people who have the same wants and aspirations as you do, but have chosen to go into the service for whatever reason they go there. But they end up benefiting much more than they expected because you learn from life experiences, you learn from positive experiences. In the Air Force, I didn't get to see a lot of the world, but I did see a lot more than most people do. You know, in my experiences of going to Korea, or going to Okinawa, or to Taipei to the overall facility. All of those are learning experiences, and each one you meet people who are really important to the operation, to the aircraft, to the people. And they have a tendency to consider that it's important that you understand the reasons why you're doing something as well as doing it well. 00:30:29.144 --> 00:30:36.944 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:30:36.944 --> 00:31:43.934 There are so, so many. You know, I just, I learned a skill that I did not know before I went in. It could have taken a job—a job, um, what I wanna say—a job, uh, United Airlines—I was offered a job when I came back from the Air Force. One of my friends, my parents' neighbors was a corporate attorney for United Airlines. And he says, We can send you to Chicago to our maintenance facility. You can be an aircraft mechanic there. And I just met my wife and I said, My desire to work in harsh environments again is not something I wanna do (Forster laughs, coughs). So I turned him down, and I ended going into the insurance business. 00:31:43.934 --> 00:31:45.535 Thank you for your time today. 00:31:45.535 --> 00:31:46.535 Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the 
 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 
 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 
 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. 
 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also 
 ; understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security 
 ; numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ForsterJamesRobert_BeyerJason_2022-11-22_access.xml ForsterJamesRobert_BeyerJason_2022-11-22_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Forster II, James Robert. Interview November 22nd, 2024.
Description
An account of the resource
James Robert Forster II served in Korea as a crew chief and flight mechanic for the U.S. Air Force during the Vietnam War and reached his highest rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. Forster recalled the challenges of an unaccompanied tour to Korea, the strains it put on his first marriage, as well as his return home during the height of the anti-war movement. He praised the education and experiences he gained from military service, including travel, recreation, training, and the G.I. Bill. After military service, Forster worked in the insurance business and met his wife at university. He reflected on his family, travels after retirement, and the life lessons he learned from military service.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-070
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2024-11-22
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
James Robert Forster II
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jason Beyer
Marilyn Huerta
Adel Bautista
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States. Air Force—Veterans
Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975
Aircraft mechanics
United States. Air Force—Noncommissioned officers
West Valley College (Saratoga, Calif.)
McClellan Air Force Base (Calif.)
Kadena Air Base (Okinawa-ken, Japan)
MacDill Air Force Base (Fla.)
National University (San Diego, Calif.)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Korea
Vietnam
Wichita (Kan.)
San Jose (Calif.)
Sacramento (Calif.)
North China Sea
Osan (Korea)
Kunsan (Korea)
Gwangju (Korea)
Daegu (Korea)
Mount Fuji (Japan)
Tokyo (Japan)
Okinawa (Japan)
Taipei (Taiwan)
Taichung (Taiwan)
Tampa (Fla.)
Portland (Or.)
San Diego (Calif.)
Caribbean
El Cajon (Calif.)
Chicago (Ill.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
James Robert Forster II
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
<a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving image
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Community history
San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Veteran experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/67921431bd6e9ca8ce1ba1d3c044d068.pdf
7cbc407be4bff4412696fcbf4fb57a8f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Transcripts
Description
An account of the resource
Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lacea, Jan Michael Letigio. Interview transcript, November 8, 2024.
Description
An account of the resource
Jan Michael Letigio Lacea served in the Navy for eight years. He was frocked Petty Officer First Class HM1 (Hospital Corpsman First Class) before he left the service. Lacea described his service in the Philippines for Operation Enduring Freedom, and he reflected on his own identity as a Filipino American immigrant. He also recounted his return to civilian life, attending graduate school at CSU San Marcos, the support he received from the CSUSM Veterans’ Center, and the life lessons he learned from military service.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jan Michael Letigio Lacea
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jason Beyer
Adel Bautista
Marilyn Huerta
Justin Gans
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2024-11-08
Subject
The topic of the resource
California State University San Marcos
Camp Pendleton (Calif.)
Marine Corps Air Station Miramar (Calif.)
Missouri State University
Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001-2014 -- Philippines
San Diego State University
United States. Navy
United States. Navy -- Hospital corpsmen
Veterans -- United States
Great Lakes (Ill.)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Fallbrook (Calif.)
Cebu City (Philippines)
Springfield (Mo.)
Okinawa (Japan)
Louisiana
San Antonio (Tex.)
Zamboanga (Philippines)
Manila (Philippines)
Boracay (Philippines)
Bohol (Philippines)
Arkansas
Marawi (Philippines)
Iraq
Afghanistan
North County San Diego (Calif.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Jan Michael Letigio Lacea
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
<a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LetigioLaceaJan_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_transcript
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Community history
San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Veteran experience
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Madeleine Meyer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jay Franklin
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer)
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.xml
Interview Keyword
This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record.
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 Franklin, Jay. Interview April 12, 2023. SC027-026 35:02 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights LGBTQ+ activism Jay Franklin Madeleine Meyer Moving Image FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.mp4 1:|15(10)|33(6)|47(4)|68(3)|81(15)|94(15)|119(13)|131(12)|148(1)|168(5)|187(1)|205(9)|228(1)|239(13)|271(14)|283(11)|308(14)|327(6)|341(5)|355(2)|370(14)|385(16)|407(8)|442(6)|474(11)|485(4)|510(13)|523(8)|540(16)|554(14)|566(6)|600(7)|625(1)|635(12)|653(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6bbcdb372d4f92f0e23c4484059a9d18.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview introduction + Franklin's early life and education prior to CSUSM Jay Franklin reflects on his educational journey as well as the cross-country move he made that landed him back in California, where he was born, ultimately leading to a career change from cosmetology to academia. Cosmetology ; Education ; Military Family ; San Diego ; Tidewater Community College, Virginia Beach ; Virginia Beach, Virginia 220 Franklin enrolls at California State San Marcos for his B.A. in 2005. Franklin discusses his decision to attend CSUSM, as well as giving a general outline of his path back to the university once he had his undergraduate degree. Bridgepoint Education/Asher University ; California State University San Marcos ; Careers in higher education ; City College ; Higher education ; Matriculation Coordinator ; San Diego ; San Diego State University ; San Marcos 375 Finding Student Life and Leadership Franklin describes joining a campus LGBTQ+ organization, the stealing of the student organization's banner, and his encountering of Student Life and Leadership and the Multicultural Programs Office through that act of hate. Hate crimes on campus ; Hillcrest ; Inclusivity ; LGBTQIA+ ; Marketing ; Pride Center 508 Early engagement with the Cross-Cultural Center (then known as the Multicultural Programs office) Franklin discusses working with Multicultural Programs to gather resources for the LGBTQ+ student organization. Frankling describes the draw of the then Multicultural Center including its patrons and the space itself. American Indian Student Association ; Asian Pacific Islander Desi American ; Black Student Union ; California State University San Marcos ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Campus resources ; Community building ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Inclusion ; Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán ; Representation on campus ; Self-expression ; Vietnamese Student Association 722 Franklin becomes a peer educator at the Multicultural Center in Spring 2007. Franklin recalls working as a peer educator at the Multicultural Center (Cross-Cultural Center), and learning about student affairs as a career. Activism ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Marketing ; Peer educators 876 Programs and outreach at the Cross-Cultural Center. Franklin recalls being a " ; marketing machine" ; and peer educators working with their communities for outreach. Activism ; Campus community ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Identity ; Marketing ; Outreach 971 Understanding the under-served campus community. Franklin describes the allure of food in driving attendance to events. He also describes workshops dedicated to finding funding for student organization programming. California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Food insecurity 1070 Franklin's experience with discovering his cultural identity Franklin recalls his early childhood military family background and how that did not inform his identity, and speaks to how the Center assisted in helping him find that identity. Asian-American experience ; Community building ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Cultural expression ; Filipino-American experience ; Identity ; Inclusion 1156 The Cross-Cultural Center moves to a bigger and more visible location Franklin describes the Center moving to the breezeway of the Administrative Building (then Craven Hall), and what being in that space did for the Cross-Cultural Center. Franklin also recalls how the peer educators engaged students who hadn't been in the space previously. California State University San Marcos ; Campus activism ; Murals 1290 Food insecurity and demand for identity-specific spaces Franklin recalls when he was a student the issue of food insecurity on campus, and the need for a food pantry. Franklin also describes the growing demand for additional identity-focused spaces on campus. California State University San Marcos ; Food insecurity ; Pride Center ; Representation ; Women in Gender Equity Center 1437 Evolution of the Cross-Cultural Center Franklin offers his thoughts on how the Cross-Cultural Center has evolved and how he sees the Center evolving in the future, as well as how it coexists with other spaces.. Identity ; Marketing ; Representation 1582 Impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on Franklin's career Franklin explains the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on his career, and how it informed his future educational and professional growth. Franklin also describes the benefits and challenges of working in higher education in California. California State University San Marcos ; Careers in higher education ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Higher education ; Student affairs 1712 Highlights from Franklin's time at the Cross-Cultural Center Franklin recalls facilitating the All People's Celebration, and working as a coordinator emergency hire where he evolved from a student to a young professional. Franklin also describes working on a mural near the Center. All People's Celebration ; Asher University ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Murals 1945 Franklin returns to CSUSM in 2009 to work for Extended Learning Programs. Franklin recalls working for Extended Learning and working in Student Affairs, and discusses working in Student Affairs during the 2020 COVID-19 Pandemic. California State University San Marcos-- Extended Learning ; Covid-19 pandemic ; Higher education ; Professional experience ; Virtual learning mp4 Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQIA students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office. Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I' ; m here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Jay Franklin here at the California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Wednesday, April 12th, 2023, and the time is 2:16. Hi, Jay. Uh, why don' ; t you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your early life and family. Franklin: Woo. Awesome. Jay Franklin, uh, associate director of new student and family programs. Um, early life, uh, let' ; s see. I grew up military. My dad was in the Navy for 24 years, so every two to three years we moved around a lot. Um, but I was fortunate enough to stay for a significant amount of time in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Um, and then had the opportunity to move out to California in 1999. California is my birth state, so when that opportunity came up, I moved away from Virginia Beach. My entire family network is in Virginia, Virginia Beach, and I just wanted to start anew out here in San Diego. Meyer: Nice. So, what was your educational journey like? Franklin: The typical " ; Go to high school and you should go to college" ; . So I, I tried that route, or that was my original plan. My senior year, my junior year of high school, I was fortunate enough to get into a program that allowed me to go to beauty school, uh, cosmetology school. So I was able to use those elective units or those blocks of time to go to cosmetology school. So, by the time I graduated high school, I already had my cosmetology license. So, I went, I did the apply for college, uh, went to a local community college, Tidewater Community College in Virginia Beach, Virginia. And, realized as a full-time hair stylist, I was doing a lot like that whole typical, like, how many hours -- should I work full-time, part-time, go to school full-time, part-time? And, I did full-time both, and, of course that doesn' ; t work out. And I felt as though I, in one of my classes, I' ; ll never forget, my sociology instructor--professor--was sharing like how much they made. And I' ; m like, you make that? And I' ; m like, and you got your doctor whatever! And it just really was jarring and shocking for me because here I am, a professional hair stylist, uh, working in a, in a salon and also doing hair on the side. I was pulling in basically what that faculty member was saying was their salary. So I was like, why am I here? And it just wasn' ; t a good fit. Um, so I didn' ; t go-- I. I dropped out eventually. Actually, I, uh, history shows that I have a whole bunch of " ; WU" ; s [Withdrawal Unauthorized]. So I did the first semester, did great. Got A' ; s and B' ; s and, and A minus or something? Uh, and, and then my second semester I was like, that was when I encountered my sociology instructor and was basically sharing their, their salary. And I was like, I need to get outta here. So I just thought, just not showing up, you' ; re done with class, and the, the university would just disenroll you and yeah, of course I' ; ll disenroll you with " ; WU" ; s, so, those are F' ; s. And so my second semester at Tidewater Community College had a whole bunch of F' ; s. Fast forward many years, at least a decade, and I started to see the number " ; 30," ; my age was coming up as thirty. And I' ; m like, oh my gosh, it' ; s time to actually go back to school and get a career. And yeah, I have a great job doing hair, but that' ; s a job. I really wanted to finish what I originally set out to do and go to college and get my bachelor' ; s degree, and did it. So I went back to school and was a non-traditional student. Uh, I didn' ; t want to go to SDSU, um, and was very adamant in not being, " ; hey, number 262 in the back row." ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: I wanted to be a person, and found out that, uh, Cal State San Marcos was a brand-new school, smaller class sizes, and I, I didn' ; t wanna leave San Diego. Worked so hard to get here and stay here. So, at that time, my partner and I were looking around for houses or condos to buy, and we just couldn' ; t find anything in San Diego, ' ; cause it was 2004 and the prices were just going up and up and up. So, fortunately, fortunately the housing or condo prices in San Marcos were affordable at that time. So, and telling my counselor at City College, she' ; s like, " ; Oh, yeah, that actually works out better for you when you apply because you' ; ll be in the service area of Cal State San Marcos." ; So it, it worked out. And I was able to come to Cal State San Marcos as an undergrad non-traditional student, in fall of 2005, been here ever since. I mean, I did leave for a little bit and, uh, I did my undergrad, my grad here, but there was a stint as soon as I finished my undergrad, I didn' ; t wanna work in a salon and I wanted a job that leveraged my bachelor' ; s degree and was lucky enough to get a job at Bridgepoint Education or Asher University, and was a matriculation coordinator-- basically a transcript evaluator. Um, did that for a couple months, I think almost a year. And then worked my way up to Articulation Specialist-- which is like assist.org, it' ; s like your articulation specialist, uh, counselor transfer counselor 24/7-- and was able to do that for Asher University. And while at a Christmas party for an office at Cal State San Marcos-- my partner worked at Cal State San Marcos at that time, so I was attending his--- was a Christmas party and was sharing with the dean at that time what I did. And it just worked out that they were having an emergency position that they said, " ; Hey, you should apply!" ; And the rest is history, as I say, I apply and then have been here ever since. So I did have a, a gap in my Cal State San Marcos life of about a year and a half where I worked externally. But boomeranged back to come to Cal State San Marcos, Meyer: Everything comes back to-- Franklin: Totally, totally. Meyer: So, during your time at, at Cal State San Marcos, when you were an undergrad, how did you become aware of and become involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Franklin: I love it. Okay. So, um, in 2005, I was a non-traditional student, so I knew that yes, the, the university has the mission statement, vision statement, campus core values, and I, I moved up from Hillcrest, so I was very out and comfortable with myself and eagerly looked for the student organization for the LGBTQ+ community, and discovered it and found it and joined their group and was like, " ; Look, we need to have some marketing. We need some banners, we need rebranding." ; And I just, I just came, I, I wasn' ; t a, a typical student. So I, I went to school and wanted to get the best out of my experience and basically became a marketing director for the student org, and then branded us and allowed us to get some visibility on campus because we wanted to increase our membership. And in that, I' ; m gonna say either that fall or early that spring, uh, our banner for our student org was stolen. And I thought it was very odd that a university would lose or allow something like that to occur. And, I thought it was really jarring to be called " ; faggot" ; on campus. And it was just really jarring. It was, it was very strange. It really reminded me of growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia with the 700 Club in the background, Christian Coalition [of America]-- campus, yes, is supposed to be inclusive, and I just didn' ; t get that vibe. I also was very comfortable in my being gay and championing the LGBTQ+ community causes up here. And to have our banner stolen, I immediately, like, " ; Who do I go to?" ; And our student org was like, " ; Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?" ; I' ; m like, the university has protocols, there' ; s rules and policies, so we' ; ll just work our way up to food chain to find out who' ; s responsible for our safety and like, what, what can be done about this banner being stolen? And that was how I encountered Student Life and Leadership, because our student organization is founded out of Student Life and Leadership, so they were responsible for the student organization. And then it also allowed me to, out of SLL-- Student Life and leadership-- it also allowed me to encounter the Multicultural Programs Office or the Cross-Cultural Center, as it was slowly evolving into -- So, that was my first encounter, was like, " ; Hey, what' ; s going on?" ; Like, our student org didn' ; t even know that the Cross-Cultural Center or the Multicultural Programs Office existed. So it was an opportunity for me to learn more about multicultural programs and the Cross-Cultural Center, but it also, uh, was allowed the student org to gain additional information and resources. So that' ; s how we encountered it. That' ; s how I personally discovered it. Meyer: So, what was the role of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time? I understand that it was like the university just starting out. Did it have more leeway or, or sway? Franklin: Um, I don' ; t, I wouldn' ; t say more leeway or sway. It was just a, to be honest, it was the reason why I was drawn into the space is there was, there were folks that looked like me, so it was predominantly Filipino or Asian, the folks that hung out in the center or the-- it was really a oversized closet, I want to say, like, as big as this room that we' ; re in. So, it was a small closet, and a conference room, and it was filled with people that looked like me. We had the same conversations about our identity groups, and it was just a really welcoming environment. I was like, wow, it' ; s refreshing to be in here versus the external campus. I mean, back then my hair was platinum or purple or pink or cheetah spots. It was whatever I felt like, I was a professional hairstylist so my hair changed often. It was like, see-through, iridescent, like-- so, in that, in that space, I was able to just be myself. And then other students started sharing their stories and some students started coming out, and-- it was-- I, I wouldn' ; t say there was like any sway or anything. It was just a spot that made me feel better. And then because I was in the center, more students were accessing the resources and, yeah. Our student org basically started leveraging the center-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: For resources for the student org, because Student Life and Leadership has resources for student orgs, but so does--the Cross-- or the Multicultural Programs, Cross-Cultural Center has resources. So, once I knew that those things were available, our student org definitely started leveraging them and, and holding space and, and using resources. Like we made, we came up with marketing campaigns, events to help not just our student org professionally develop in leadership, but also sharing some of our lessons learned with other student orgs, like, Black Student Union, American Indian Student Association, MEChA [Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán], APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American], or-- I' ; m trying to remember all the other ones-- but Asian Pacific Islander student org, Vietnamese student org [Vietnamese Student Association]. So, all these different student orgs, their membership were students. And I felt really out of place because I was an older, non-traditional student, and I was pushing-- I wouldn' ; t say pushing the envelope-- but I was just encouraging more leadership development, and sharing resources with students, saying, " ; These are things that you' ; ve paid for, you can leverage them and use them to the benefit of not just your student org, but for you professionally and get some-- grow your skillset." ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. So, I understand you became a peer educator because you were so motivated to like, keep helping other students learn about the things they could utilize on campus. Um, could you talk a little bit about the peer educator program? Franklin: Yeah. So there were, I wanna say five of us. Uh, I' ; m looking at, let me look at my pictures. Meyer: No, that' ; s totally fine. Franklin: There, there was Cheryl, Stephanie, Diana, myself, and Brittany, and that was May of 2007. I was just looking, referencing a picture of us as a group. As a peer educator, I kind of feel like, because I was a non-traditional student, I really looked at this as a job, as a-- I didn' ; t know that student affairs was actually a career until encountering Student Life and Leadership in the Multicultural Programs. I was like, " ; This is a job?" ; Like, this is amazing! So, I was living the life as if I was already employed by the university and really took ownership and pride of being a peer educator-- Um, but, of course I wanted to ensure that we all shared the, the workload. So, each of us had a specialization. Mine was LGBTQ specific, the four other peer educators focused on their areas. I just took a bit more ownership of like, making sure that-- I, I wouldn' ; t say I was a lead, but I just wanted to make sure that our, our projects were polished? And, when looking around at other student orgs and other peer educators on campus, I wanted to share all the resources, and the presentation of this is what Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center, this is the content we put out. It' ; s branded, it has a, a similar look and feel. It didn' ; t look hodgepodge. Like, this was years ago before the advent of Canva. Everybody loves Canva right now because templates galore and it all looks professional. Back then we didn' ; t have it. So, the peer educators basically came up with our own template that we said, okay, this is how we' ; re, the conversation was like, how do we make it look professional and not student org, and not just disjointed from every event to the next event? There was some side sort of cohesion, a template that looked like when you looked at a, a flyer or a poster, you knew, oh, that' ; s a Cross-Cultural Center event. Meyer: Hmm. What kind of support and programmings were, were offered for students that got involved with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] when the organization was still, you know, coming up when you were, when you were a peer educator. What kind of, like, outreach was taking place to the students? Franklin: Kinda outreach. Ooh, that' ; s a good one. Uh, so the peer educators essentially were their own marketing machines. Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, each of our groups, we were leveraged, uh, to dip into our own communities-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, when it came to marketing efforts and how do we reach the greater campus body-- I mean, there was, I wanna say 7,400 students on campus at that time? 74[00] to 8,000 students. So, by being already a student leader in the LGBTQ group, our and each of the peer educators being members of their own, identity group, student orgs, it really helped the marketing efforts target those communities. And it was cross-pollination essentially. Like, everybody-- we synced our events to ensure that we weren' ; t overlapping anybody else' ; s events, so that we could pull our communities to each one of them so we could be strategic in our marketing efforts. Meyer: How did the Cross-Cultural Center help you further develop that sense of community and help others find it? I know you' ; ve already touched on that a bit, but, um, yeah. Finding a community on campus-- Franklin: How did it help me find a community? Meyer: I mean, you, you already had, like you said, a community, but, how did-- how did you help bring other people into that in ways that they might not have been introduced to? Franklin: Perfect. Okay. Um, a good way of looking at it is ensuring that a lot of our events had food, because we knew that food draws students. So, one strategy was always going to the director of Student Life Leadership, was always asking for additional funds for < ; laughs> ; so we could buy pizza, hotdogs, to ensure our events had food, because we knew that food was the-- a driving motivator for students to attend anything. So, food was important. And then, money was another way of, of pulling in students that didn' ; t leverage the Cross-Cultural Center or Student Life and Leadership was helping students-- like, we were doing workshops and helping students, obtain funding from-- the Cross-Cultural Center had funds, ASI [Associated Students Incorporated, student government] had funds, the Vice President of Student Affairs had funds, so there was like $500 pockets of money that you could apply for in fall or for spring, or for the entire academic year. So, we came up with workshops to help students apply for those programs, funding opportunities so that they could actually get money. So, we knew food was important and money was important. So, we held workshops, helped students actually like, oh, I' ; ve never applied for money before for student org. We' ; re like, " ; don' ; t worry, we can help you walk through this process." ; So, food and money was one way to bring in students that never knew that the Cross-Cultural Center existed, or even Student Life and Leadership existed. Meyer: What is the overall significance, in your opinion, of having a space like that, that champions, uh, underrepresented students on campus and gives them a place to be themselves and hold space? Franklin: Yeah, it was, it was a family experience. For me, I, I really, uh, didn' ; t, as I grew up military, so every two to three years would move around. So, I really didn' ; t have this whole Asian, Filipino, identity experience. But hanging out in the center really helped me come, come to peace or come to terms with my half-Filipino, half-Asian background. And it helped me find space. And then by being comfortable, I guess others, seeing myself being authentic allowed them to just be themselves. Like, it was a really family experience in a sense that when you walked into the center-- I was looking at some of the pictures from back of the day. Some students just like took off their shoes. Like when you talk about a family or cross-cultural experience, some at, when they go home, they take off their shoes before they enter their house. So, I thought it was the strangest and coolest thing. And, and looking back, I saw a picture where there was some students without their shoes on. I' ; m like, " ; Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that." ; So, I, it was a space for students to be themselves, and the more students that went into the Cross-Cultural Center to-- it always felt like there was a party. Like, there was a sort of celebration in the center, like we packed the space and, and, and not just packing the space, it was always fun. And when we moved from Craven Hall, now the Administrative Building, it' ; s that small little conference room that' ; s as big as this space. We moved into the breezeway of the administrative building, and the door into the Cross-Cultural Center was in the breezeway where all the murals are at, at Cal State San Marcos. So, whenever we were holding space and taking up space and having some dialogue, whenever the door was open, it echoed inside. I think it was like a strategic way of the director that time to put it in that space, because it was front and center. Everybody that walked through that hallway, the sound just increased because it was in a hallway-- a breezeway. And when people looked into the space and saw the fun you were having, it was-- the natural conversation was like, our question was like, " ; What' ; s going on in there? And how could I join it?" ; So, it was always packed, it was always welcomed. The peer educators, as soon as somebody walked by, looked into the space, our, our goal was to engage with them immediately. So if you looked into the door of the Cross-Cultural Center, it was like, " ; Hi! Welcome into our space! We' ; ve got this and we' ; ve got that." ; Just, it was always a welcoming and inclusive atmosphere, total family. Like if, if a student didn' ; t know it was here, that meant they never visited Cougar Central or visited the Financial Aid Office. Like, in order to get to that, that office, that was one of the main thoroughfares at breezeway with the murals is where the party was happening. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like some of the activism efforts were just getting kids in the door so they could learn and, and, yeah-- enjoy, enjoy the space if they previously hadn' ; t felt it on campus before. Can you recount in an instance when something you learned at the CCC, maybe it opened your eyes to something you hadn' ; t thought about before, something just hadn' ; t crossed your mind? Some-- um-- maybe some issue you hadn' ; t realized that underrepresented students were having on campus, that you just hadn' ; t-- Franklin: The, the food, the-- definitely the food insecurity. < ; removing glasses> ; I' ; m, I' ; m not gonna be looking at my phone or a laptop. Food insecurity was a big one for me. As a non-traditional student, I didn' ; t have that worry. I didn' ; t have that concern. That was early conversations of like, " ; Where' ; s our food pantry? Other campuses have food pantries, but not Cal State San Marcos." ; So, for me, I thought that was really odd that here we are, we have a space for students, but we don' ; t have, like, a food pantry to allow students to get access to it. So that was, goes back to my earlier response of like, have food and students will show up. So, knowing that students need food, and holding events to that had food was a major draw. But yeah, it was a big shocker to find out that food insecurity was a big deal back then. I mean, it still is now. There is a food pantry and there' ; s food pantries all around. But, back then it was like, yeah, we know it' ; s a problem, but that' ; s so new and our campus is still growing, that we can only focus on this one space. And yes, the Cross-Cultural Center was one space, and there were other many spaces on campus, but because it was this Cross-Cultural Center and filled with-- the line back then was like first one in gets to own the space, so the Asian identified groups would pack the room and they' ; re like, " ; This is the Asian Center!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; This is a Cross-Cultural Center." ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, the conversation also started to get out where students were like, " ; Well, where' ; s my center?" ; and " ; Where' ; s my center?" ; and Pride Center of the-- like, LGBT community was like, " ; Where' ; s our center?" ; And, it just started, " ; Where' ; s the Women in Gender Equity Center?" ; So, because of the fun and the joy that was a party-like atmosphere, other, other students were like, " ; Uh, where' ; s my space?" ; And, so, that was a bit jarring for a campus from my perspective to not have all spaces, but also no time and place-- like, the university was still pretty young. Like, campuses just don' ; t pop up and have everything all at once. It has to be responsive to the community that evolves and grows there. And Cal State San Marcos has done that. Meyer: Right. Wait for the community to ask for what they need rather than just tell them what they need. Franklin: Yep. Meyer: What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these other centers? Franklin: I, it' ; s-- Meyer: It' ; s a, it' ; s a hard question, yeah-- Franklin: Yeah. So, because they' ; re all, all these different centers are very specific to an identity group. The Cross-Cultural Center is -- I don' ; t know if they would take the lead or, um, I don' ; t know. It' ; s a, it' ; s a central hub that-- and the first center that, it' ; s been here. Just because it' ; s been here the longest doesn' ; t mean it has to stay that way. So, watching it evolve and grow, and how it collaborates with other centers has been really important. So, I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know if that answers your question. Meyer: Mm-hmm. No, it does. It does, yeah. Franklin: Once its role, its-- Meyer: There' ; s no right answer to the question. Yeah. Yeah. It' ; s exactly-- building off that, what direction do you think the CCC should grow in? What, what areas do you see room for improvement in students that could be better served, or maybe--- you know, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. It' ; s one of those, like-- oh, it' ; s almost like a innovation hub-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And a business incubator. So, when you look at it from... I' ; m going, I' ; m gonna dip back into the marketing hat--- it starts off as an incubator group for students that want to form community, and, once that group has been given the energy and the resources that they need, and the-- the sense of, you can advocate for yourself and advocate--. and that advocation gets you, it doesn' ; t get you a center, but it helps consolidate your voice so that you can move the students and empower the students to ask and request for space. So, yeah, I, I look at the Cross-Cultural Center as like a, a identity group incubation center. So, students leverage a space, become empowered, and then get what they need and go up to leadership or to student leadership-- ASI--- and say, " ; Hey, look, where' ; s our space? Why don' ; t we have it X, Y, and Z? Like, we' ; ve been asking for it for this long." ; Like, it' ; s a, it' ; s a great spot to start. Meyer: I understand you still work in--- of course, you work on Cal State San Marcos campus, and I just wanted to ask about what ways that your experience and your time with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] helped shape your outlook and your professional life? Franklin: Uh, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I wouldn' ; t have known that student affairs was a job. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: And, yeah, so Cross-Cultural Center really impacted my career trajectory. I, I didn' ; t know that this, I didn' ; t--- when I went to Cal State San Marcos, I did not know that you could work in higher education. And I didn' ; t know that was even a major. And, there' ; s an entire master' ; s degree around student affairs, and I' ; m like, this is cool. I myself didn' ; t go that route because I was already a non-traditional student. I came with a skill set that I would' ; ve already learned in the student affairs master' ; s program. I stayed at Cal State San Marcos, and I got a master' ; s of education and just made it my own and focused on LGBT-specific stuff. But, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I would not have known that there' ; s a student affairs professional career. I wouldn' ; t have known to actually work in higher education. And then this whole concept of like, you' ; re a state employee. Like, I didn' ; t-- like when I originally said, " ; Oh, gosh, I' ; m about to be 30," ; it' ; s--- " ; I need to look for retirement!" ; I didn' ; t know that working for the state of California, the retirement is, like, this unicorn that doesn' ; t exist anymore. So, like, private businesses don' ; t even offer half of which you get as a state employee. And, and that comes with a, a rub as well, because when you' ; re a new professional in, student affairs or just in in higher education, you have to, you have to put in your, your dues and start at the bottom and work your way up, learn the skillsets, apply for another job if you see one that better fits you grow within your role. But all of those things I would' ; ve never known about had it not been for the Cross-Cultural Center. So, for me, it really had a huge impact on my personal life and professional career as well. Meyer: I understand that you and a lot of the peer educators became really good friends, and I was just wondering if either with them or with other students at the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center], if there' ; s any like, great memories of the retreats or any of the events that you wanted to share, or just talk about. Franklin: Ooh, great events. Facilitating All People' ; s Celebration was always a, fun-- just because it was a culminating award ceremony to recognize other student leaders on campus for various social justice awards. That was really cool. A big one for me was, and I still see it today, is my first professional role in the Cross-Cultural Center. There was a gap in between my undergrad and my master' ; s program. There was a, a, a gap in professional service. So basically, the director or the co-direct, uh, assistant director at the time of the Cross-Cultural Center had left, no longer worked for the university. And the director of, Student Life, the leadership said, " ; Hey, uh, because you' ; re super engaged as a peer educator and you finally finished your undergrad, we could-- there' ; s this emergency hire position that we could hire you for three months or six months, but it ends at six months." ; There' ; s, there' ; s no, we' ; re--- we just need you to hold the spot, keep the seat warm, and keep the processes and the function of the Cross-Cultural Center moving forward because you know all the peer educators and you' ; ve been in this role-- and a lot of the peer educators graduated and a new set came in. But the ones that had didn' ; t graduate that were there, it was a really good opportunity for a good three to six months to be engaged in the student work where I evolved from student to young professional. And a big event that I had to do was create this mural, and I don' ; t know how many panels it was, but it was maybe a hundred different pieces. And it was this giant picture, and it was divided into little one-foot-by-one-foot squares, or 12-inch-by-12-inch squares. And it made this huge mural and one giant design, but everybody got a one-foot-by-one-foot portion of it, and they got to paint it and add their own flare to the image. Because, once pulled back together, it would show a, a great--- it was like a kaleidoscope of all kinds of different perspectives, even though we knew it was one giant mural but everybody had their own little one-foot-by-one-foot square to add their own flavor and to add their own, this is Jay' ; s square, or this was Stephanie' ; s square. It was really a fun experience, to do a mural that' ; s still on campus. And I see it, while it might not be in the Cross-Cultural Center, I' ; ve watched this mural move from office, or Dean' ; s conference room to Dean' ; s conference room, and it' ; s being used as backdrops for, for pictures around campus. So I think it' ; s just so neat to see, being a part of the start, that it doesn' ; t end, like, the-- I' ; ve left my mark, or the peer educators have left their mark, and that, that thing, that mural is still being leveraged today. It' ; s just pretty awesome. Meyer: That' ; s really cool. So you were, you were basically an interim director? For a little while? Franklin: I, I wouldn' ; t say a director-- Meyer: Program lead or something? Franklin: Coordinator. Meyer: Coordinator. Okay. Franklin: And yeah, I like to say, " ; Well, the director, the associate director left on the--" ; of course, no. Titles mean nothing. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: But it was-- I, I definitely enjoyed that first experience in Student Affairs. And once I got into Student Affairs and that six months ended, it coincided with me getting hired at Asher University. And-- that is not student affairs, it was just transcript analysis. And then, coming back to Cal State San Marcos in fall of [20]09, working for Extended Learning, the self-support unit of the university, they don' ; t receive any state funds. And it was ten-- a decade of my experience was in self-support. And then, when the pandemic hit, my skillset got repurposed, and off to Student Affairs I went, and now I' ; m back in Student Affairs. So it' ; s like, really full circle again, like yeah. It' ; s pretty wild. Meyer: Yeah. So, um, I know it' ; s not related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but could you talk a little bit about directing Student Affairs during the pandemic? Franklin: Yeah. Uh, it was, I was basically supporting the director, the inaugural director of the Success Coaching Program and Office of Coaching Success. And, it was basically-- my skillset was leveraging a database to match 1500-plus students with-- I want to say-- eighteen success coaches? We' ; re a unionized environment, so, we had full-time staff, half-time staff and quarter-time staff. We had 1500 incoming first-year students that we needed to engage with and connect that student to Cal State San Marcos, even though we were in a virtual environment. So, leveraging technology appropriately. We sent text messages, of course, we called and sent emails, but as we know for sure, students or students in general don' ; t read emails and they didn' ; t know pick up calls from people that they don' ; t know. So, sending memes to students to get them engaged, and we knew what the life cycle was like, because there' ; s only sixteen weeks in a semester and we knew of certain in intervals in the semester, students like need to fill out their financial aid, meet with an academic advisor, check in to see how you' ; re doing, how are they engaging or finding a sense of community. So, it goes back to that community feeling. While it might not be a Cross-Cultural Center specific, engaging in with a student to help them find their, their sense of being, or their sense of place, or their sense of connection-- connecting to community was what we were able to do when the pandemic hit, helping the students find their place. Even though it was virtual. Meyer: It sounds like you' ; ve always been doing that. Yeah. It sounds like you' ; ve been doing that since the first day you set foot on campus, just helping other students find their place. That' ; s really cool. Well, I just wanted to thank you so much for, for coming in and doing this interview and, yeah, that' ; s all the questions I have for today. But, thank you! Franklin: That' ; s awesome. Thank you for having me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.xml FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Franklin, Jay. Interview April 12, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQ+ students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-026
Subject
The topic of the resource
California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs
Education, Higher
Human rights
LGBTQ+ activism
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-12
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jay Franklin
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Madeleine Meyer
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Virginia Beach (Va.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Jay Franklin
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving image
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
LGBTQIA+ experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e62624fb1bdfebb2252e2ea132ab1d6e.pdf
a47afc957202c225a5327331d4f153df
PDF Text
Text
JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
Meyer:
My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Jay Franklin here at
the California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is
Wednesday, April 12th, 2023, and the time is 2:16. Hi, Jay. Uh, why don't you go ahead and introduce
yourself and tell us a little bit about your early life and family.
Franklin:
Woo. Awesome. Jay Franklin, uh, associate director of new student and family programs. Um, early life,
uh, let's see. I grew up military. My dad was in the Navy for 24 years, so every two to three years we
moved around a lot. Um, but I was fortunate enough to stay for a significant amount of time in Virginia
Beach, Virginia. Um, and then had the opportunity to move out to California in 1999. California is my
birth state, so when that opportunity came up, I moved away from Virginia Beach. My entire family
network is in Virginia, Virginia Beach, and I just wanted to start anew out here in San Diego.
Meyer:
Nice. So, what was your educational journey like?
Franklin:
The typical ”Go to high school and you should go to college”. So I, I tried that route, or that was my
original plan. My senior year, my junior year of high school, I was fortunate enough to get into a
program that allowed me to go to beauty school, uh, cosmetology school. So I was able to use those
elective units or those blocks of time to go to cosmetology school. So, by the time I graduated high
school, I already had my cosmetology license. So, I went, I did the apply for college, uh, went to a local
community college, Tidewater Community College in Virginia Beach, Virginia. And, realized as a full-time
hair stylist, I was doing a lot like that whole typical, like, how many hours -- should I work full-time, parttime, go to school full-time, part-time? And, I did full-time both, and, of course that doesn't work out.
And I felt as though I, in one of my classes, I'll never forget, my sociology instructor—professor--was
sharing like how much they made. And I'm like, you make that? And I'm like, and you got your doctor
whatever! And it just really was jarring and shocking for me because here I am, a professional hair
stylist, uh, working in a, in a salon and also doing hair on the side. I was pulling in basically what that
faculty member was saying was their salary. So I was like, why am I here? And it just wasn't a good fit.
Um, so I didn't go-- I. I dropped out eventually. Actually, I, uh, history shows that I have a whole bunch
of “WU”s [Withdrawal Unauthorized]. So I did the first semester, did great. Got A's and B's and, and A
minus or something? Uh, and, and then my second semester I was like, that was when I encountered my
sociology instructor and was basically sharing their, their salary.
And I was like, I need to get outta here. So I just thought, just not showing up, you're done with class,
and the, the university would just disenroll you and yeah, of course I'll disenroll you with “WU”s, so,
those are F’s. And so my second semester at Tidewater Community College had a whole bunch of F's.
Fast forward many years, at least a decade, and I started to see the number “30,” my age was coming up
as thirty. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it's time to actually go back to school and get a career. And yeah, I
have a great job doing hair, but that's a job. I really wanted to finish what I originally set out to do and
go to college and get my bachelor's degree, and did it. So I went back to school and was a nontraditional student. Uh, I didn't want to go to SDSU, um, and was very adamant in not being, “hey,
number 262 in the back row.”
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
1
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
I wanted to be a person, and found out that, uh, Cal State San Marcos was a brand-new school, smaller
class sizes, and I, I didn't wanna leave San Diego. Worked so hard to get here and stay here. So, at that
time, my partner and I were looking around for houses or condos to buy, and we just couldn't find
anything in San Diego, ‘cause it was 2004 and the prices were just going up and up and up. So,
fortunately, fortunately the housing or condo prices in San Marcos were affordable at that time. So, and
telling my counselor at City College, she's like, “Oh, yeah, that actually works out better for you when
you apply because you'll be in the service area of Cal State San Marcos.”
So it, it worked out. And I was able to come to Cal State San Marcos as an undergrad non-traditional
student, in fall of 2005, been here ever since. I mean, I did leave for a little bit and, uh, I did my
undergrad, my grad here, but there was a stint as soon as I finished my undergrad, I didn't wanna work
in a salon and I wanted a job that leveraged my bachelor's degree and was lucky enough to get a job at
Bridgepoint Education or Asher University, and was a matriculation coordinator-- basically a transcript
evaluator. Um, did that for a couple months, I think almost a year. And then worked my way up to
Articulation Specialist-- which is like assist.org, it's like your articulation specialist, uh, counselor transfer
counselor 24/7-- and was able to do that for Asher University.
And while at a Christmas party for an office at Cal State San Marcos-- my partner worked at Cal State
San Marcos at that time, so I was attending his--- was a Christmas party and was sharing with the dean
at that time what I did. And it just worked out that they were having an emergency position that they
said, “Hey, you should apply!” And the rest is history, as I say, I apply and then have been here ever
since. So I did have a, a gap in my Cal State San Marcos life of about a year and a half where I worked
externally. But boomeranged back to come to Cal State San Marcos,
Meyer:
Everything comes back to-Franklin:
Totally, totally.
Meyer:
So, during your time at, at Cal State San Marcos, when you were an undergrad, how did you become
aware of and become involved with the Cross-Cultural Center?
Franklin:
I love it. Okay. So, um, in 2005, I was a non-traditional student, so I knew that yes, the, the university has
the mission statement, vision statement, campus core values, and I, I moved up from Hillcrest, so I was
very out and comfortable with myself and eagerly looked for the student organization for the LGBTQ+
community, and discovered it and found it and joined their group and was like, “Look, we need to have
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
2
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
some marketing. We need some banners, we need rebranding.” And I just, I just came, I, I wasn't a, a
typical student. So I, I went to school and wanted to get the best out of my experience and basically
became a marketing director for the student org, and then branded us and allowed us to get some
visibility on campus because we wanted to increase our membership. And in that, I'm gonna say either
that fall or early that spring, uh, our banner for our student org was stolen.
And I thought it was very odd that a university would lose or allow something like that to occur. And, I
thought it was really jarring to be called “faggot” on campus. And it was just really jarring. It was, it was
very strange. It really reminded me of growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia with the 700 Club in the
background, Christian Coalition [of America]… campus, yes, is supposed to be inclusive, and I just didn't
get that vibe. I also was very comfortable in my being gay and championing the LGBTQ+ community
causes up here. And to have our banner stolen, I immediately, like, “Who do I go to?” And our student
org was like, “Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?” I'm like, the university has protocols, there's rules
and policies, so we'll just work our way up to food chain to find out who's responsible for our safety and
like, what, what can be done about this banner being stolen?
And that was how I encountered Student Life and Leadership, because our student organization is
founded out of Student Life and Leadership, so they were responsible for the student organization. And
then it also allowed me to, out of SLL-- Student Life and leadership-- it also allowed me to encounter the
Multicultural Programs Office or the Cross-Cultural Center, as it was slowly evolving into … So, that was
my first encounter, was like, “Hey, what's going on?” Like, our student org didn't even know that the
Cross-Cultural Center or the Multicultural Programs Office existed. So it was an opportunity for me to
learn more about multicultural programs and the Cross-Cultural Center, but it also, uh, was allowed the
student org to gain additional information and resources. So that's how we encountered it. That's how I
personally discovered it.
Meyer:
So, what was the role of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time? I understand that it was like the
university just starting out. Did it have more leeway or, or sway?
Franklin:
Um, I don't, I wouldn't say more leeway or sway. It was just a, to be honest, it was the reason why I was
drawn into the space is there was, there were folks that looked like me, so it was predominantly Filipino
or Asian, the folks that hung out in the center or the-- it was really a oversized closet, I want to say, like,
as big as this room that we're in. So, it was a small closet, and a conference room, and it was filled with
people that looked like me. We had the same conversations about our identity groups, and it was just a
really welcoming environment. I was like, wow, it's refreshing to be in here versus the external campus. I
mean, back then my hair was platinum or purple or pink or cheetah spots. It was whatever I felt like, I
was a professional hairstylist so my hair changed often. It was like, see-through, iridescent, like— so, in
that, in that space, I was able to just be myself. And then other students started sharing their stories and
some students started coming out, and… it was… I, I wouldn't say there was like any sway or anything. It
was just a spot that made me feel better. And then because I was in the center, more students were
accessing the resources and, yeah. Our student org basically started leveraging the center-Meyer:
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
3
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
For resources for the student org, because Student Life and Leadership has resources for student orgs,
but so does—the Cross-- or the Multicultural Programs, Cross-Cultural Center has resources. So, once I
knew that those things were available, our student org definitely started leveraging them and, and
holding space and, and using resources. Like we made, we came up with marketing campaigns, events to
help not just our student org professionally develop in leadership, but also sharing some of our lessons
learned with other student orgs, like, Black Student Union, American Indian Student Association, MEChA
[Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán], APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American], or-- I'm trying
to remember all the other ones-- but Asian Pacific Islander student org, Vietnamese student org
[Vietnamese Student Association].
So, all these different student orgs, their membership were students. And I felt really out of place
because I was an older, non-traditional student, and I was pushing-- I wouldn't say pushing the
envelope-- but I was just encouraging more leadership development, and sharing resources with
students, saying, “These are things that you've paid for, you can leverage them and use them to the
benefit of not just your student org, but for you professionally and get some-- grow your skillset.”
Meyer:
Mm-hmm. So, I understand you became a peer educator because you were so motivated to like, keep
helping other students learn about the things they could utilize on campus. Um, could you talk a little bit
about the peer educator program?
Franklin:
Yeah. So there were, I wanna say five of us. Uh, I'm looking at, let me look at my pictures.
Meyer:
No, that's totally fine.
Franklin:
There, there was Cheryl, Stephanie, Diana, myself, and Brittany, and that was May of 2007. I was just
looking, referencing a picture of us as a group. As a peer educator, I kind of feel like, because I was a
non-traditional student, I really looked at this as a job, as a-- I didn't know that student affairs was
actually a career until encountering Student Life and Leadership in the Multicultural Programs. I was like,
“This is a job?” Like, this is amazing! So, I was living the life as if I was already employed by the university
and really took ownership and pride of being a peer educator… Um, but, of course I wanted to ensure
that we all shared the, the workload.
So, each of us had a specialization. Mine was LGBTQ specific, the four other peer educators focused on
their areas. I just took a bit more ownership of like, making sure that… I, I wouldn't say I was a lead, but I
just wanted to make sure that our, our projects were polished? And, when looking around at other
student orgs and other peer educators on campus, I wanted to share all the resources, and the
presentation of this is what Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center, this is the content we put
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
4
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
out. It's branded, it has a, a similar look and feel. It didn't look hodgepodge. Like, this was years ago
before the advent of Canva. Everybody loves Canva right now because templates galore and it all looks
professional. Back then we didn't have it. So, the peer educators basically came up with our own
template that we said, okay, this is how we're, the conversation was like, how do we make it look
professional and not student org, and not just disjointed from every event to the next event? There was
some side sort of cohesion, a template that looked like when you looked at a, a flyer or a poster, you
knew, oh, that's a Cross-Cultural Center event.
Meyer:
Hmm. What kind of support and programmings were, were offered for students that got involved with
the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] when the organization was still, you know, coming up when you were,
when you were a peer educator. What kind of, like, outreach was taking place to the students?
Franklin:
Kinda outreach. Ooh, that's a good one. Uh, so the peer educators essentially were their own marketing
machines.
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
So, each of our groups, we were leveraged, uh, to dip into our own communities—
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
So, when it came to marketing efforts and how do we reach the greater campus body-- I mean, there
was, I wanna say 7,400 students on campus at that time? 74[00] to 8,000 students. So, by being already
a student leader in the LGBTQ group, our and each of the peer educators being members of their own,
identity group, student orgs, it really helped the marketing efforts target those communities. And it was
cross-pollination essentially. Like, everybody-- we synced our events to ensure that we weren't
overlapping anybody else's events, so that we could pull our communities to each one of them so we
could be strategic in our marketing efforts.
Meyer:
How did the Cross-Cultural Center help you further develop that sense of community and help others
find it? I know you've already touched on that a bit, but, um, yeah. Finding a community on campus-Franklin:
How did it help me find a community?
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
5
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
Meyer:
I mean, you, you already had, like you said, a community, but, how did-- how did you help bring other
people into that in ways that they might not have been introduced to?
Franklin:
Perfect. Okay. Um, a good way of looking at it is ensuring that a lot of our events had food, because we
knew that food draws students. So, one strategy was always going to the director of Student Life
Leadership, was always asking for additional funds for <laughs> so we could buy pizza, hotdogs, to
ensure our events had food, because we knew that food was the-- a driving motivator for students to
attend anything. So, food was important. And then, money was another way of, of pulling in students
that didn't leverage the Cross-Cultural Center or Student Life and Leadership was helping students-- like,
we were doing workshops and helping students, obtain funding from-- the Cross-Cultural Center had
funds, ASI [Associated Students Incorporated, student government] had funds, the Vice President of
Student Affairs had funds, so there was like $500 pockets of money that you could apply for in fall or for
spring, or for the entire academic year. So, we came up with workshops to help students apply for those
programs, funding opportunities so that they could actually get money. So, we knew food was important
and money was important. So, we held workshops, helped students actually like, oh, I've never applied
for money before for student org. We're like, “don't worry, we can help you walk through this process.”
So, food and money was one way to bring in students that never knew that the Cross-Cultural Center
existed, or even Student Life and Leadership existed.
Meyer:
What is the overall significance, in your opinion, of having a space like that, that champions, uh,
underrepresented students on campus and gives them a place to be themselves and hold space?
Franklin:
Yeah, it was, it was a family experience. For me, I, I really, uh, didn't, as I grew up military, so every two
to three years would move around. So, I really didn't have this whole Asian, Filipino, identity experience.
But hanging out in the center really helped me come, come to peace or come to terms with my halfFilipino, half-Asian background. And it helped me find space. And then by being comfortable, I guess
others, seeing myself being authentic allowed them to just be themselves. Like, it was a really family
experience in a sense that when you walked into the center-- I was looking at some of the pictures from
back of the day. Some students just like took off their shoes. Like when you talk about a family or crosscultural experience, some at, when they go home, they take off their shoes before they enter their
house.
So, I thought it was the strangest and coolest thing. And, and looking back, I saw a picture where there
was some students without their shoes on. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that.” So, I, it was
a space for students to be themselves, and the more students that went into the Cross-Cultural Center
to… it always felt like there was a party. Like, there was a sort of celebration in the center, like we
packed the space and, and, and not just packing the space, it was always fun. And when we moved from
Craven Hall, now the Administrative Building, it‘s that small little conference room that's as big as this
space. We moved into the breezeway of the administrative building, and the door into the CrossCultural Center was in the breezeway where all the murals are at, at Cal State San Marcos.
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
6
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
So, whenever we were holding space and taking up space and having some dialogue, whenever the door
was open, it echoed inside. I think it was like a strategic way of the director that time to put it in that
space, because it was front and center. Everybody that walked through that hallway, the sound just
increased because it was in a hallway-- a breezeway. And when people looked into the space and saw
the fun you were having, it was-- the natural conversation was like, our question was like, “What's going
on in there? And how could I join it?” So, it was always packed, it was always welcomed. The peer
educators, as soon as somebody walked by, looked into the space, our, our goal was to engage with
them immediately. So if you looked into the door of the Cross-Cultural Center, it was like, “Hi! Welcome
into our space! We’ve got this and we've got that.” Just, it was always a welcoming and inclusive
atmosphere, total family. Like if, if a student didn't know it was here, that meant they never visited
Cougar Central or visited the Financial Aid Office. Like, in order to get to that, that office, that was one of
the main thoroughfares at breezeway with the murals is where the party was happening.
Meyer:
Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like some of the activism efforts were just getting kids in the door so they could
learn and, and, yeah-- enjoy, enjoy the space if they previously hadn't felt it on campus before. Can you
recount in an instance when something you learned at the CCC, maybe it opened your eyes to
something you hadn't thought about before, something just hadn't crossed your mind? Some-- um-maybe some issue you hadn't realized that underrepresented students were having on campus, that you
just hadn't-Franklin:
The, the food, the… definitely the food insecurity. <removing glasses> I'm, I'm not gonna be looking at
my phone or a laptop. Food insecurity was a big one for me. As a non-traditional student, I didn't have
that worry. I didn't have that concern. That was early conversations of like, “Where's our food pantry?
Other campuses have food pantries, but not Cal State San Marcos.” So, for me, I thought that was really
odd that here we are, we have a space for students, but we don't have, like, a food pantry to allow
students to get access to it. So that was, goes back to my earlier response of like, have food and
students will show up. So, knowing that students need food, and holding events to that had food was a
major draw. But yeah, it was a big shocker to find out that food insecurity was a big deal back then.
I mean, it still is now. There is a food pantry and there's food pantries all around. But, back then it was
like, yeah, we know it's a problem, but that's so new and our campus is still growing, that we can only
focus on this one space. And yes, the Cross-Cultural Center was one space, and there were other many
spaces on campus, but because it was this Cross-Cultural Center and filled with-- the line back then was
like first one in gets to own the space, so the Asian identified groups would pack the room and they're
like, “This is the Asian Center!” And I'm like, “This is a Cross-Cultural Center.”
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
7
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
So, the conversation also started to get out where students were like, “Well, where's my center?” and
“Where's my center?” and Pride Center of the-- like, LGBT community was like, “Where's our center?”
And, it just started, “Where's the Women in Gender Equity Center?” So, because of the fun and the joy
that was a party-like atmosphere, other, other students were like, “Uh, where's my space?” And, so,
that was a bit jarring for a campus from my perspective to not have all spaces, but also no time and
place-- like, the university was still pretty young. Like, campuses just don't pop up and have everything
all at once. It has to be responsive to the community that evolves and grows there. And Cal State San
Marcos has done that.
Meyer:
Right. Wait for the community to ask for what they need rather than just tell them what they need.
Franklin:
Yep.
Meyer:
What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these other centers?
Franklin:
I, it's-Meyer:
It's a, it's a hard question, yeah-Franklin:
Yeah. So, because they're all, all these different centers are very specific to an identity group. The CrossCultural Center is … I don't know if they would take the lead or, um, I don't know. It's a, it's a central hub
that… and the first center that, it's been here. Just because it's been here the longest doesn't mean it
has to stay that way. So, watching it evolve and grow, and how it collaborates with other centers has
been really important. So, I don't know. I don't know if that answers your question.
Meyer:
Mm-hmm. No, it does. It does, yeah.
Franklin:
Once its role, its—
Meyer:
There's no right answer to the question. Yeah. Yeah. It's exactly… building off that, what direction do
you think the CCC should grow in? What, what areas do you see room for improvement in students that
could be better served, or maybe--- you know, yeah.
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
8
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
Franklin:
Yeah. It's one of those, like… oh, it's almost like a innovation hub—
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
And a business incubator. So, when you look at it from... I'm going, I'm gonna dip back into the
marketing hat--- it starts off as an incubator group for students that want to form community, and, once
that group has been given the energy and the resources that they need, and the-- the sense of, you can
advocate for yourself and advocate…. and that advocation gets you, it doesn't get you a center, but it
helps consolidate your voice so that you can move the students and empower the students to ask and
request for space. So, yeah, I, I look at the Cross-Cultural Center as like a, a identity group incubation
center. So, students leverage a space, become empowered, and then get what they need and go up to
leadership or to student leadership— ASI--- and say, “Hey, look, where's our space? Why don't we have
it X, Y, and Z? Like, we've been asking for it for this long.” Like, it's a, it's a great spot to start.
Meyer:
I understand you still work in--- of course, you work on Cal State San Marcos campus, and I just wanted
to ask about what ways that your experience and your time with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] helped
shape your outlook and your professional life?
Franklin:
Uh, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I wouldn't have known that student affairs was a job.
Meyer:
Yeah.
Franklin:
And, yeah, so Cross-Cultural Center really impacted my career trajectory. I, I didn't know that this, I
didn't--- when I went to Cal State San Marcos, I did not know that you could work in higher education.
And I didn't know that was even a major. And, there's an entire master's degree around student affairs,
and I'm like, this is cool. I myself didn't go that route because I was already a non-traditional student. I
came with a skill set that I would've already learned in the student affairs master's program. I stayed at
Cal State San Marcos, and I got a master's of education and just made it my own and focused on LGBTspecific stuff. But, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I would not have known that there's a student
affairs professional career. I wouldn't have known to actually work in higher education. And then this
whole concept of like, you're a state employee. Like, I didn't-- like when I originally said, “Oh, gosh, I'm
about to be 30,” it's--- “I need to look for retirement!” I didn't know that working for the state of
California, the retirement is, like, this unicorn that doesn't exist anymore. So, like, private businesses
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
9
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
don't even offer half of which you get as a state employee. And, and that comes with a, a rub as well,
because when you're a new professional in, student affairs or just in in higher education, you have to,
you have to put in your, your dues and start at the bottom and work your way up, learn the skillsets,
apply for another job if you see one that better fits you grow within your role. But all of those things I
would've never known about had it not been for the Cross-Cultural Center. So, for me, it really had a
huge impact on my personal life and professional career as well.
Meyer:
I understand that you and a lot of the peer educators became really good friends, and I was just
wondering if either with them or with other students at the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center], if there's any
like, great memories of the retreats or any of the events that you wanted to share, or just talk about.
Franklin:
Ooh, great events. Facilitating All People's Celebration was always a, fun-- just because it was a
culminating award ceremony to recognize other student leaders on campus for various social justice
awards. That was really cool. A big one for me was, and I still see it today, is my first professional role in
the Cross-Cultural Center. There was a gap in between my undergrad and my master's program. There
was a, a, a gap in professional service. So basically, the director or the co-direct, uh, assistant director at
the time of the Cross-Cultural Center had left, no longer worked for the university. And the director of,
Student Life, the leadership said, “Hey, uh, because you're super engaged as a peer educator and you
finally finished your undergrad, we could-- there's this emergency hire position that we could hire you
for three months or six months, but it ends at six months.”
There's, there's no, we're--- we just need you to hold the spot, keep the seat warm, and keep the
processes and the function of the Cross-Cultural Center moving forward because you know all the peer
educators and you've been in this role-- and a lot of the peer educators graduated and a new set came
in. But the ones that had didn't graduate that were there, it was a really good opportunity for a good
three to six months to be engaged in the student work where I evolved from student to young
professional. And a big event that I had to do was create this mural, and I don't know how many panels
it was, but it was maybe a hundred different pieces. And it was this giant picture, and it was divided into
little one-foot-by-one-foot squares, or 12-inch-by-12-inch squares.
And it made this huge mural and one giant design, but everybody got a one-foot-by-one-foot portion of
it, and they got to paint it and add their own flare to the image. Because, once pulled back together, it
would show a, a great--- it was like a kaleidoscope of all kinds of different perspectives, even though we
knew it was one giant mural but everybody had their own little one-foot-by-one-foot square to add their
own flavor and to add their own, this is Jay's square, or this was Stephanie’s square. It was really a fun
experience, to do a mural that's still on campus. And I see it, while it might not be in the Cross-Cultural
Center, I've watched this mural move from office, or Dean's conference room to Dean's conference
room, and it's being used as backdrops for, for pictures around campus. So I think it's just so neat to see,
being a part of the start, that it doesn't end, like, the… I've left my mark, or the peer educators have left
their mark, and that, that thing, that mural is still being leveraged today. It's just pretty awesome.
Meyer:
That's really cool. So you were, you were basically an interim director? For a little while?
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
10
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
Franklin:
I, I wouldn't say a director-Meyer:
Program lead or something?
Franklin:
Coordinator.
Meyer:
Coordinator. Okay.
Franklin:
And yeah, I like to say, “Well, the director, the associate director left on the…” of course, no. Titles mean
nothing.
Meyer:
Yeah.
Franklin:
But it was-- I, I definitely enjoyed that first experience in Student Affairs. And once I got into Student
Affairs and that six months ended, it coincided with me getting hired at Asher University. And… that is
not student affairs, it was just transcript analysis. And then, coming back to Cal State San Marcos in fall
of [20]09, working for Extended Learning, the self-support unit of the university, they don't receive any
state funds. And it was ten-- a decade of my experience was in self-support. And then, when the
pandemic hit, my skillset got repurposed, and off to Student Affairs I went, and now I'm back in Student
Affairs. So it's like, really full circle again, like yeah. It's pretty wild.
Meyer:
Yeah. So, um, I know it's not related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but could you talk a little bit about
directing Student Affairs during the pandemic?
Franklin:
Yeah. Uh, it was, I was basically supporting the director, the inaugural director of the Success Coaching
Program and Office of Coaching Success. And, it was basically-- my skillset was leveraging a database to
match 1500-plus students with-- I want to say-- eighteen success coaches? We’re a unionized
environment, so, we had full-time staff, half-time staff and quarter-time staff. We had 1500 incoming
first-year students that we needed to engage with and connect that student to Cal State San Marcos,
even though we were in a virtual environment. So, leveraging technology appropriately. We sent text
messages, of course, we called and sent emails, but as we know for sure, students or students in general
don't read emails and they didn't know pick up calls from people that they don't know. So, sending
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
11
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
memes to students to get them engaged, and we knew what the life cycle was like, because there's only
sixteen weeks in a semester and we knew of certain in intervals in the semester, students like need to
fill out their financial aid, meet with an academic advisor, check in to see how you're doing, how are
they engaging or finding a sense of community.
So, it goes back to that community feeling. While it might not be a Cross-Cultural Center specific,
engaging in with a student to help them find their, their sense of being, or their sense of place, or their
sense of connection-- connecting to community was what we were able to do when the pandemic hit,
helping the students find their place. Even though it was virtual.
Meyer:
It sounds like you've always been doing that. Yeah. It sounds like you've been doing that since the first
day you set foot on campus, just helping other students find their place. That's really cool. Well, I just
wanted to thank you so much for, for coming in and doing this interview and, yeah, that's all the
questions I have for today. But, thank you!
Franklin:
That's awesome. Thank you for having me.
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
12
2023-05-01
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Transcripts
Description
An account of the resource
Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Franklin, Jay. Interview transcript. April 12, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQ+ students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office.
This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jay Franklin
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Madeleine Meyer
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-12
Subject
The topic of the resource
California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs
Education, Higher
Human rights
LGBTQ+ activism
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Virginia Beach (Va.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Jay Franklin
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-026
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
LGBTQIA+ experience
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Judith Downie
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jeff Bagby
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer)
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview February 21, 2018 SC027-053 01:43:40 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.) ; Brewers -- California -- San Diego County. ; Brewing industry -- California -- History. ; Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County. Jeff Bagby Dande Bagby Judith Downie wav BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.wav 2.0:|41(19)|72(13)|103(3)|151(11)|178(14)|221(15)|243(5)|289(4)|324(6)|347(16)|379(11)|410(7)|445(4)|482(14)|520(6)|552(9)|599(3)|638(13)|690(5)|734(8)|778(14)|816(6)|852(16)|878(9)|908(9)|934(6)|967(13)|1020(9)|1072(7)|1110(6)|1143(5)|1193(13)|1230(4)|1305(12)|1351(6)|1413(11)|1446(14)|1495(8)|1528(9)|1557(6)|1579(6)|1605(14)|1638(15)|1679(13)|1708(9)|1739(16)|1769(10)|1804(11)|1855(11)|1906(12)|1941(10)|1981(16) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a2147e643ec83629c21ffe9df0d387b8.wav Other audio English oral history Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024. 
 ; 
 ; Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations. 
 ; 
 ; Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles. 
 ; 
 ; Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time. 
 ; 
 ; In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer ; homebrewing ; introduction of craft beer to the region ; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s ; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery ; packaging and distribution ; charity work ; competitions, judging, and awards ; consumer education. Holly Sweat: Is this my copy or is this your copy? (Sweat referring to printed list of questions.) Judith Downie: You can certainly have that because I am just going to let Jeff and Dande, you know, tell me what they want because that is just a list of ideas. You certainly do not have to address anything if you feel like it is giving away company secrets or you are just not comfortable or you just forget about it and tell me something else equally interesting and informative. That’s great. I love to record what I can get. So, you know, it sounds Dande like you maybe got into this a little after Greg did. Excuse me, Greg--I just said Greg. After Jeff did. So maybe we start with Jeff talking about how did he become interested in beer or how did he get into the beer industry and--? Jeff Bagby: Okay. Yeah, so let's see. I started liking bitter beer, I don’t know, at high school, younger age. It just was something that my friends and I found--a couple of friends--who really liked the flavors. Liked the idea-- Downie: Now, were you in this area or where were you--? J Bagby: Yeah, I was born and raised in Encinitas. So, San Diego native. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: So yeah, around here. And, actually when I graduated high school, I bought that friend in particular a homebrew set for his birthday. And so, we both messed around and that was my first homebrewing foray, whatever you want to call it. Downie: Now where did you find your supplies for homebrewing up? J Bagby: Yeah, that is what I was going to say. So, you know, that's the age before the internet and cell phones and things of that nature. So, there is no-- Downie: Do you want to give me an approximate year? J Bagby: Uh, (19)93. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)92, (19)93, (19)94, somewhere in there. And, so we had known a little bit, we had heard a little bit, we had tried to go and fish beer from establishments even though we were not of age yet. But at homebrew shop you can buy anything without an ID. So, at least back then you could. So, we Homebrew Mart in Solana Beach. That's where I first met Yusef (Cherney) was actually the one that sold me the kit. Then he went on obviously to do his thing. So, kind of a cool connect there and then they kind of keep happening as time goes on. But, yeah, so we just messed around really. I mean, we re-read things, read books. Talked to brewers when we could, when we traveled, things like that. We ended up going to school together where we got more into it. We were doing all-grain batches and keeping a beer on tap at our house all the time, as well as beers like Sierra Nevada (Brewing Co.), Anchor Steam (Beer), Original Pizza, Wicked, Red Nectar, some of the Sam(uel) Adams beers. I don’t, what else we could get our hands on that we felt was better. (laughs) Downie: Now was there a bottle shop anywhere nearby where you could (unintelligible)? J Bagby: There was a few. There was in Encinitas and downtown there was Cork and Keg (Cork and Keg Liquors). There was a couple in sort of the Kearny Mesa area that were known for having, you know, hundreds of bottles and typically they were not very good. But we did not necessarily know that at the time (Downie laughs) because we didn’t know what we were tasting and not tasting. Downie: Right. Yeah. J Bagby: I did not know that some of these beers, well, they'd been sitting around on these shelves warm for, you know, a couple of years. Some of them survived perfectly fine. And most of them, you know, like, “Oh, that's what that tastes like, that's kind of weird”. So, when we can find fresh things or more exciting flavors, that was obviously a fun thing. And yeah, just like, I think anybody did back in the nineties, when you found a new bottle of beer, you kept it, or you kind of talked about it and told your friends, “Hey, I tried this, blah-blah-blah.” It was, you know, I was rating beer before there was the internet, before there was, you know, these things that we are so attached to. So yeah, that is kind of where the appreciation started and, you know, throughout college, like I said, wherever, I would go and travel, try to seek out breweries, brew pubs, if it was possible to talk to a brewer and get, you know, whatever information I could, you know. “What kind of grain did you use this? What kind of hops are in this? What is your process for this? And, oh, what size system do you have?” And, you know, it was fun to do. And I was fun to go to cities that had older, richer brewing cultures than San Diego, you know? Back then there was not even probably ten breweries in San Diego at the time. Especially none that we had real easy access to. The easiest one for, for me, ended up being Solana Beach Pizza Port (Pizza Port Solana Beach). Just because I had met people there and met the brewers there. I went there all the time and were buying homebrew supplies from down the street. So, as it grew, you know, I finished school, came back home. I worked summers at the YMCA in Encinitas running their summer camp programs. Youth summer camp programs. So, I was heavily involved in that. But I always really liked--still liked beer. Still went to festivals and— Downie: What was your degree in? J Bagby: It was communications, social science degree. You know, honestly, I just wanted to get done in the school. It is not really my thing. Downie: But you completed it, so “Yay” for you. J Bagby: Yeah, yeah, I can say I have a degree. Whoop. (Dande Bagby laughs) So yeah, came back home, worked that job or some aspect of it for a summer. And then I was hoping to stay on. I’d had several--I've worked there since I was fifteen (years old). So, I had years of experience, knew the program, knew everything and anything about it. So, it was hoping, well, maybe this will be a full-time job, because the program had grown and grown and grown in the time that I've worked there. But they didn't have a position. Good old nonprofits. So, I started just looking for a job. I was living in Cardiff with some friends and I needed money. I needed something to do. So, through the YMCA, I had a commercial driver's license to drive kids around, drive big old buses. So, I looked into driving jobs because they paid pretty well. And I could probably get one quick. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: You know, the degree did nothing for me, so. (laughs) Dande Bagby: Well, it sounds like you didn’t really want it, too. J Bagby: Well, I mean, it's not like you go, like, what industry are you going to be like? “Yeah. I have a communications degree from UC Santa Barbara,” like there, so? How's that going to help us do blah-blah-blah. There was no technology jobs. There was no social media jobs. There was no— Downie: Exactly. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) I was, I kept going into radio or like news or— Downie: (speaking at the same time) But it would have taken time to get employed, and you were saying you needed work now. J Bagby: Exactly. Downie: Which is certainly understandable. J Bagby: Exactly. D Bagby: So, think about that before we get the degree. (laughs) Just kidding. (laughs) J Bagby: So let's pay attention and talk about themselves once it’s their turn. (all laugh) D Bagby: Just saying! J Bagby: So anyway, let's see, let's see, oh, came across the job, driving job for Stone Brewing Company. And I remembered that I had been in Solana Beach the very first night they'd ever poured a beer and I'd met Greg (Koch) and Steve (Wagner) and tasted the beer. And I was like, “Oh, this would be great.” You know, I remember them, it's cool to see that they, you know, are still going and are making beer and need a driver. So, I just interviewed with Greg and told him my whole story. And he was like, “Well, obviously you're super overqualified. (Downie laughs) So, you know, you have the job.” And it was fun. It was interesting to see some side of the bar and restaurant and beer industry that I'd never seen before. Learning some of the weird rules that are still in laws that are still in effect today and delivered beer. Drove beer truck for three months. And Steve and I were at a festival. I would always hang back after I was done and talk with the brewers and see what they were making and see what was coming on and things like that. And Steve was like, “Well, we need another body in the brewery. We need somebody else.” And I was like, “Yeah, sure. I'd love to.” I was like, “Who do I give these truckies to?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So I actually found the guy that took my position as a driver. And he's still my Stone rep(resentative) today. Downie: Oh my gosh. J Bagby: Yeah. I still work for Stone in different capacity now, obviously. But yeah, he was a bartender at one of our accounts, he was actually at Pizza Port and he's like, “Oh, how's it going over there?” And “What's it like?” and I'm like, “Well, if you're interested, you could come check this out.” He was a bartender, so he could still bartend and do that. And so, yeah, he came over and I taught him the routes and boom, he was the driver and I moved into the brewery. So, I learned there, primarily from Lee Chase and Steve Wagner. Their methods to brewing, I'll say, which I still today, I think if you ask about mentors on here, definitely those two guys are some of the first. And they gave me a lot of introductions into people like Skip Virgilio, Yusef Cherney, Jack White, Chris White, Gina and Vince Marsaglia, where I spent hours in their restaurant. Several other people that are still working in beer today, and still active. And, you know, we all kind of, you know, kind of go, “Yep, you were there,” you know, when you have these people that have been open for five minutes. (Downie laughs) Not to say it's bad, but you know, it's nice to have that kind of a bond and that kind of a connection to people that remember when there wasn’t all the things that there are today. Downie: When it was a struggle. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yeah, big time. Downie: (speaking at the same time) I mean, not that it isn’t a struggle now to run a business and to start having all that, just to be in the first, the forefront of things. J Bagby: Oh yeah, there used to-- Downie: There is still some special barriers. J Bagby: When I was living in Cardiff, in driving for Stone and then actually working in the brewery for Stone, we would go to events like every weekend. Every Friday and Saturday night, you know? Because the sales reps are like, “Hey, can you guys come down and help promote?” Or, you know, whenever we went to somewhere and be like, “Hey, do you have Stone beer on tap?” And they'd be like, “What the hell is Stone?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) You know, and now you can't find somebody that doesn't know what that is. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And back then, it was totally different because people weren't paying attention. People didn't care. There was five tap handles and all five of them are taken up by mass-produced beer, you know? The Heinekens, Amstel Light, Guinness, New Castle, Bud, Bud Light, Coors Light, Miller Light, not Corona, it wasn't going on tap back then but it was in the bottle under the bar. So, it was tough. It was tough for them to gain ground and getting space. And because they came out with a Pale Ale, they were in an immediate competition with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, which had already, you know, been around for ten years at the time. So, you had that battle. You have this well, “What's, what's different from you? These guys have been doing it for a long time. They make this Hoppy Pale Ale. We've had it on tap. What's the difference?” So yeah, a lot of early struggles, a lot of, you know, almost telling--I like to say this, like Stone told people what to drink. When they came out with a beer like Arrogant Bastard and they came out with a beer like Stone IPA, and it came out with Smoked Porter that came out with these beers that no one was used to drinking and they were like, “No, you're going to like this, because this is what we have to offer. And people would taste it. And I think combined shock, new flavors, new tastes, things they'd never had before, they really grabbed onto it. And they were like, “No, this is, this is cool. I really like this.” Not necessarily knowing why or knowing what about the beer that they were actually tasting. Just that it was exciting and it was new. So, I learned to brew on that, (laughs) professional thirty barrel, professional brewhouse pretty quickly. Helped create the first Stone Barley Wine, Old Guardian. Lee and Steve and I each did five-gallon test batches. And then we, we tasted them all and created a recipe. So, that was fun. And few anniversary beers, you know, when they were taking Stone IPA and Double Stone IPA and Triple Stone IPA for the anniversary beers. Those beers just blew people's minds back then because no beer had had that kind of aroma and power on the hop side, you know? And they're not unlike a lot of West Coast IPAs that are still made today. So that was exciting. The Y(MCA) came calling somewhere in that first year, year and a half that I was in the brewhouse. I got hired at Stone in September of (19)97. And I worked there through sometime in (19)99. Okay. I'm trying to remember exactly when, but I did go back to the Y full-time because they actually have a full-time job for me and they needed the help. So, over the summers I would work a hundred-plus hours a week because I’d work a full-time job at Stone Brewing. And then I would go back over to the Y and help them with everything that they needed for the next day or for the next week of things I hired and trained. Yeah, it was crazy. Monitored staff, bus drivers, all these things while I was still working at Stone. Left Stone to do the Y thing after one of the summers, because I was like, oh, it's too much. And they were going to give me a little bit more money at Y. So, I went and did that and then got stomped on over there. Got passed over. And I was like, “You know what? I'm done with this. I've given my life to you guys and saved you guys several summers and I'm over it.” So, went back to beer, got hired at White Labs (Brewing Co.) in San Diego. I had known--by this time I had known tons of people in the industry. I had done festivals for Stone. I had worked for them in all sorts of different capacities and also knew the Pizza Port people really well. Downie: So what year--when did you get hired on White Labs? J Bagby: That was probably (19)99? Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)99, 2000? I can’t—I’m not positive on that. But somewhere in there. Because I definitely left--I left both the Y I think the--right before the 2000 summer started because they had made some really bad decisions and it bothered me. (Downie laughs) So, let's see. I worked at White Labs for-- Downie: As a brewer? J Bagby: No, as a sales kind of yeast consultant. Answer questions for people, take orders, you know. Downie: Was this at their--where they are now? Candida Street or--? J Bagby: No, this was the location before that. (Silverton Avenue, San Diego location.) Downie: Okay. J Bagby: A little--it's kind of an interesting place like offices on front, warehouse in the back, but much, much smaller than where they are now. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: But it was cool. It was definitely educational. It was neat to get to know Chris and Lisa (White) better as well as one of their other then-partners, Chris Mueller. I had already known all of them and met all of them so, it was kind of nice to get a job and work with them. And it was okay. It just wasn’t--it wasn’t exciting for me. And I wanted to get back into the brewhouse and I wanted to get back working with actual beer. So, kept in touch with Pizza Port and the people there, the whole time. I got hired at Solana Beach as an assistant brewer. And so, I was an assistant brewer there and bartender there-- Downie: And who was head brewer at the time? J Bagby: Tomme (Arthur), at the time. But we had become friends, gosh, right after he got hired there because I knew the brewer before him. And then they're like, “Oh, that's the new brewer.” So, I just like introduced myself and said, “Hey, I really like these beers here and blah-blah-blah” So we just got to chatting and hanging out and doing all sorts of different things. And you know, even when I was working for Stone, we connected just because it's, you know, another brewery in town. (laughs) And back then— Downie: Well, it shows the value of networking— J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: And knowing people, it makes a big difference. J Bagby: There's also a way to learn back then, you know? Steve and Lee were great and taught me a lot, but also learned a lot from Tomme. And I also learned a lot from a ton of other breweries that I met back in the late nineties and early two thousands. All across the state and even into Arizona. The guys at Four Peaks (Brewery Co.), still good friends of mine, even though they sold their company for who knows how much, they won’t tell anybody. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Places like Marin Brewing (Company), Anderson Valley (Brewing Company), Russian River (Brewing) now, when he was still in Temecula back then. Downie: He was Blind Pig (Brewing) back then. J Bagby: Yeah, I had met him (Vinnie) and Natalie (Cilurzo) back then. Untold numbers of, you know, going to the Great American Beer Festival (GABF) for the first time was probably my biggest eye-opener to all of that and meeting more and more people because now there was the whole U.S. and all the brewers in the U.S. in one room and back then it was easy. You could go and talk to people. I was working for a brewery at the time and that was 1997. It was my first GABF. And I'll never forget going up to people and trying beers and went, “Oh my gosh, that's awesome,” you know? And just making that acquaintance. And I know a lot of those people still today that I met that year at that GABF. So really cool stuff. And that just kept building, you know? Every time I could go to a conference, every time I could go to another out-of-town festival. Meet more people. (laughs) So, you know, at Solana, I was there for probably two or three years doing assistant brewing and bartending. And then a position opened up. I had met Tom Nickel through all of this too. Because he was good friends with Tomme. He was a part of the early Ballast Point (Brewing Company) and Home Brew Mart. Tom and I are still very good friends today and Tomme. And so, he said, “Hey.” He was working for Stuft (Pizza and Brewing) at the time before it was Oggi’s. And then when it became Oggi’s, they had one in Vista that opened, their brewer was leaving. And so he's like, “Hey, if you want a head brewing job,” I was like, “Hell yeah.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, took it. I had interviewed with a couple others. It was just, well I interviewed at Kona and just decided I didn't want to go and live on an island. (laughs) So, and there was an opportunity in my backyard, so, why not take that? So, did that for a while. That was fun. That was really the first time I got to see my influence on brewing, make a difference for somebody's beers or somebody's restaurant or somebody's beer culture, you know? It was the first time I'd won medals on my own with my own beers. You know, we'd done very well on Solana Beach. But this was cool because it was like my stuff. And worked with Tom (Arthur). He became their corporate brewer for a short time up in San Clemente. And I worked at that location for a while until Pizza Port Carlsbad had an opening for a head brewing position and that was a bigger brewhouse. That was more beer and it was more money and it was Pizza Port was kind of my first forte. So, I went back to that and ran, within a year, was running all the brewing operations on all of their pubs. Helped them open Ocean Beach. Hired, trained, promoted a ton of different brewers who are still in the brewing industry today. Yeah, you’ve got Yiga Miyashiro, the head brewer at Saint Archer (Brewing). Greg Peters, who's the head of Barrel Program there. Ignacio Cervantes, who was the head brewer of Carlsbad after I left and then took over (Pizza Port) Bressi Ranch and is now working for a new company in San Diego (Chula Vista Brewing). Noah Regnery, who also part of that company and Brandon Edwards is also a part of that company. All guys that were head brewers at Pizza Port went on to several different breweries and have all kind of come back together in one way. I'm sure there's other people. (laughs) Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: But it was a good experience and, you know, going all the way back to my Stone days, you know, Lee and I worked in this warehouse by ourselves, you know? Day in, day out. So, you get in these conversations, you're running, you know, a four head making bottling machine for eight hours while you're filtering a beer, you know? Like, you know? You are brewing, you get into conversations and you know, both of us were like, “Yeah, I really would like to own my own place at some point,” you know? And my thoughts at that time were, I'd really like to just have a beer bar or have a place because I've enjoyed that aspect of it. I enjoyed teaching people about beer, telling people about new styles and new things that were coming out or that the Pizza Port had just come out with. So, I said, “I don't know what, I just really want to my own place. And Lee was like, “Yeah, me too, me too.” So, it's funny that both of us have had that come true- Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: Over time. But in the Pizza Port years, having, you know, kind of pulled from my YMCA experiences with hiring and training people and building sort of a management approach to running the bars at the Pizza Port, they were, for lack of a better term, they were pretty chaotic and not very well managed. And the companies were, even though they were making money, hand over fist, they weren't making as much as they could because they were losing money, hand over fist because of their bar staff. So, I tightened up that. I taught their bar staff and what, you know, beer education programs, you know, you had to spend a day in the brewery with me, all of these things. And that carried on to all of the locations. And in doing that and forging that, that's when, you know, I started having conversations with Dande. We had met and I showed her--actually I was still working at Oggi’s when we met. And, you know, started talking about, well, “What do we want, what do you want to do with this? What would you do with this?” And I was like, “Oh, I want to open my own place.” And it was funny because people would come in while I was brewing in Carlsbad, say, “Oh, we're going to open a brewery.” And I was like, “Oh, cool.” Well, this is, you know, “I've been doing this for a really long time and I'm not ready yet, but you know, good on you.” Or somebody would come in who had just opened a brewery and I'd want to help support them. So, we had guest beers at Pizza Port, we would put their beer on tap and, you know? I would talk it up and everything. And then it was funny because by the time I left Carlsbad, I didn't have that approach. I was like, “Okay, bring your beers in and then I'll taste them and we'll see what we can do.” Yeah, “We'll give you some feedback or we'll see if we can get you into rotation or not,” you know? We have a big board, there's a ton of trends, and there's a ton of spots. They're almost always taken whatever the case was, but I wasn't as eager to just blindly accept the keg as I had been in the past, when there was, you know, “Let's promote local beer and let's get this scene going.” And it transferred all the way into here because now there's even more breweries. But now that I'm one of those people that's trying to sell beer to people. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: It's always so-- I get it. And, you know, hopefully, you know, the things that we had talked about before we opened and the things that we wanted to do is largely what you see today. When you come here and it's not just a beer aspect, it's a food aspect, it's a space and feel. It's also our cocktail and spirits program, wine program. All the things that we do here are things that we talked about ten years ago. Of course, it took us a very long time to get to that point. And I think we've surpassed many mountains in that process of getting to where we are, which is something that feels really good. But it's also a constant struggle when there's, you know, things that we deal with every day. And somebody asked me the other day, “Oh, would you go back and do it again?” Yeah, I would. Hopefully I know a little bit more. (all laugh) As Dande was talking about earlier with managing the construction, but it's been a crazy, crazy road. It's been fun to have been a part of San Diego beer, to have kind of put my efforts into not only just promoting the people that I worked for, but training other people into that and, you know, really teaching and promoting what good beer is and making sure that I did everything I could to make sure that San Diego was seen that way and perceived that way across the country and across the world. And I believe that I still do that today, even though there's one hundred and fifty or what odd breweries in town. I still make my efforts to make sure that that happens if that makes sense. Downie: Yeah, it does. J Bagby: Cool. Downie: So, what made you decide to basically take down Continental Motors? (J and D Bagby laugh) What made you decide on taking this piece of property and rather than taking over-- J Bagby: Good question. Downie--a building that you could just kind of refurbish? J Bagby: Yeah. Well, I kind of still ask myself that question a lot. (D Bagby laughs) D Bagby: Depends on how good the day is going. J Bagby: That 3,000 square foot warehouse looks pretty cool somedays. (laughs) No, we had a location in Encinitas that we were pretty fond of. I wanted to be the first person to make beer and Encinitas since there was one little tiny spot that was open for like nine months in downtown Encinitas called the Red Kettle. D Bagby: The (19)80s? J Bagby: And it was like (19)89 to (19)90, something like that, I think it was open. And sounded like the guy didn't know a whole lot about what he's doing. And it would be interesting to see if you find any more information on that. Downie: There’s very little on the Red Kettle. I’ve been looking. J Bagby: There's like one article you can still pull up online. Vince Marsaglia, I remember he'll tell me stories. He's told me stories about going in there and talking to the guy about brewing. But anyway, I wanted to be like, “No, I want to open up a brewery and want to, you know, it's not going to be a restaurant with the little kid in the back.” Like, yeah, I want to do that in Encinitas ‘cause Encinitas neighborhood made it look cool there. But building situation fell through. We had spent some time, even some money getting people together. We had met with everyone at the city of Encinitas. So, we knew it was going to be a bit of an uphill battle with what's going down there on the Coast. It was on Coast Highway in Encinitas, big, beautiful, gorgeous eighty-three hundred square foot building with a wooden barrel ceiling and twelve-foot brick walls. Gorgeous place. And the landlord--we had never actually spoke with the landlord. We had only spoke with his representative and he had edged us along the way. “Yeah, that's good. It's good. Yeah. That's no, he's, he wants to do this.” And we put in our LOI (Letter of Intent), you know, spent, like I said, I spent time with the city. This is what we're thinking about doing. Architects, all sorts of things. Structural engineering, because the building's old. It was an old Safeway or something, I think. D Bagby: It was a grocery store. J Bagby: Yeah, it was a grocery store at one time. That's why. And all of a sudden we just weren't hearing anything back from the rep. So, I just called them up and, “Dude, what's going on?” Like we were going forward, we think this is happening. We've heard nothing. And he just basically said, “No,” without, you know, I tried to reach out to the landlord. The owner said, “Hey, just meet me. Just--let's have a conversation.” Could never get there. And from what I hear, that guy's kind of a maniac, so I'm kind of glad we didn't get in that situation. (D Bagby laughs) But I do miss the idea of being there in that building and being in Encinitas. I think that would have been really, really cool. But-- Downie: As a hometown boy. J Bagby: (laughs) But, we took that setback. Or, yeah, it was a setback, because we were, you know, not that we'd put all our eggs in that basket, but we definitely— D Bagby: Several months. J Bagby: But, yeah, we spent several months of time on it. D Bagby: We kind of mentally moved into it too. You start to really put yourself there and how to Jeff, as you mentioned earlier, like, we had been talking about these ideas that you now see here for a long time. And so, you start to sort of layer those ideas over the space and figure out how things might go. And, it was really--it was a huge disappointment. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But we got over it pretty quickly and moved on and... J Bagby: Yeah. So, we decided to, not to stop, but to kind of regroup. We got married and after we got married, we decided to enlist the help of a commercial real estate. So, we, through some friends we found a really good broker. And he gave--started just giving me--I met with him--he gave me no less than I think a hundred properties throughout the county to look at. And we had already found out a little bit on our own through some other connections, you know. Basically, no one's going to give you any cash. If you're in a strip mall, you're going to be paying even though, your rent might be lower, you're going to be paying other fees that make that rent go back up. And they basically only take national conglomerate stores that have very, very deep pockets these days. Not too many private strip malls out there taking breweries and first-time owners and let alone, “Oh, you want to open a restaurant and a brewery? Okay, yeah. High risk, high risk. No, don't do it, all those things.” So, we sought out to find private owners and properties that started to fit what we what we had or what we wanted on there, which was coastal North County, enough space for a restaurant, enough space to have a decent sized brewery, and a space that will allow for indoor-outdoor dining. We love the aspect of letting people or giving the people the opportunity to eat outside in this gorgeous weather that we have almost year-round. So, I'd never thought about Oceanside, but I knew that anything in between Del Mar and Carlsbad was going to be extremely expensive and extremely difficult to find. Especially for the uses that we wanted to do. You know, we were trying not to have a conditional use permit. We're trying not to deal with the (California) Coastal Commission. We're trying to get into a spot where we could build or remodel, I should say, for the most part. Downie: Yeah (laughs). J Bagby: But pretty much ended up re-building. If you saw what we did to this place before we rebuilt it— Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: We basically tore it down. Anyway, he gave me a list of seven, eight properties in Oceanside here. So, I just grabbed my camera, my notebook, and my bike and rode them all. And I came across this one and it was--you could go all the way around it, but you couldn't see much. Where the brewery is now, were solid roll-down doors. It was their maintenance garage. Up front was a showroom, so, I could look in the windows there. That building to the south, you can kind of look in there too, but you couldn't tell what was exactly going on over here. You can see a little bit, all closed, looked like it had been, somebody had moved out. And so, in my head it just started clicking and I'm like, “Oh, what if that was there? And what if we put, you know, the brewery in here? What if we did this here?” I took, I don't know, fifty pictures of the place looked at the other properties and went home and told her. I'm like, “I found it.” And she's like, “What are you talking about?” D Bagby: You actually called me from the space. (J Bagby laughs) J Bagby: I’m like, “It's an old car dealership.” She’s like, “You're fucking insane.” I’m like, “Get in a car, come down here.” (all laugh) D Bagby: It’s basically what happened. J Bagby: (laughs) So, yeah, we just kind of went from there. We told our broker, “Hey, can you, you know—" super sensitive about contacting the realtor—realtor rep, landlord, anything like that. D Bagby: Because of our experience in the industry. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: We wanted to make--just kind of proceed cautiously. And we did not have our hopes up. We had no idea what they would--what their response would be to any kind of inquiry. J Bagby: We obviously originally thought that they wanted car dealerships to take it over again. Just because they were set up that way. They have the lifts, they had the excess parking. They had, you know, frontage on South Coast Highway. There's seven other places, you know? So, we thought that's what they were going for. And they originally, they kind of said, “Yeah,” because use is that, it'd be easy for their somebody to just take it over. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And a couple of inquiries they had because the space was so big and nobody wanted it all. They would want just that building or just the parking lot, or just part of this main building, main parcel. So, I said, “Well, we're kind of interested in all of that.” (laughs) And so anyway, the original conversation with rep-between-rep, the idea of a brewery got brought up by the rep from here and unsolicited-- D Bagby: By their broker, yeah. J Bagby: Unsolicited from our broker at all. And I was like, “Yes. Okay, cool.” And so, I'm like, “Hey, can we get in it? Can we look around and see what's going on?” So, the very first day we came to look at it and the landlords was here, the owners were here. And they wanted to meet us and they wanted to hear about what we wanted to do. And if we thought the space would work. And they're still friends of ours today. They still come in here and eat. His father was from Bamberg, Germany, which is a huge brewing scene in Germany and malts. There's two big malt companies in Bamberg. Then I said, “Well, I buy malt from Bamberg.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, we had this, you know, this back and forth. Their son is into beer. And he really liked the idea of the legacy of the property that his father had started going into another family business of some kind. I think that probably in the end was what attracted them the most to us. But we poured our hearts out like, “Hey, this is what we want to do. And we totally get it. Like, you know, we've never opened a business. This is a huge spot. We have to raise a ton of money.” All these things, but we really want to do it.” And they went for it. D Bagby: Much to their credit, honestly. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: They took a big risk on us. And, it's a big point of pride for Jeff and I-- J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: -- to count them among legitimately among friends. And, we're just, we're so grateful to them for just being open-minded. It was their family's business that was here and then that they had to close and they still own the property. And they, you know, we have a long long-term lease and several options. So, we don't own the space. I'm sure the property will stay in their family forever, which I think is fine. It's perfect. But they just really--they were very interested in us as people and-- J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: --what our vision was and what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it. And I think that aligned, even though they're totally different industries, it really aligned with their values. And, yeah, much to— Downie: Their European background. D Bagby: Yeah, definitely that that's probably part of it. (laughs) But I remember when they finally agreed, it was sort of like, obviously it's exciting, but it's also instantly terrifying. Downie: Yeah. D Bagby: You don't--And we didn't even realize at the time what we had just done, I don't think. (Downie D Bagby laugh) J Bagby: It took me six weeks to get the lease exactly where we wanted it. D Bagby: At least. J Bagby: And it's like, I think it's sixty pages of like, eight, nine-point font. It's like line-by-line and you just, you have to know, “Okay, what does this lawyerese mean?” And then go and read through and go, “Okay, no, that's what we don't agree with. Here's the change we need,” you know? And so, we just--the back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And then we start with contractors interviewing contractors, and that is a whole fiasco in and of itself because they're intense. And they realized that in the end, throughout this thing, I think they realized that their relationship is never going to be a great one, just because of the nature of the industry. D Bagby: It can’t. J Bagby: It just can't. There's too many variables and there's too much money and there's too much time involved for--I've never met anybody who was like, “Yeah, I loved my GC. My project went amazing.” They're full of shit. D Bagby: It’s like a disposable relationship in a weird way. J Bagby: Yeah, you just-- D Bagby: You need them, they you need but then it's over and we're done. We don't want to see you again kind of thing. It's terrible, but that's just kind of the nature of it. Downie: Now did your general have any background in building a brewery? J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) No, in restaurants. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) In restaurants. J Bagby: Yeah, restaurants, and commercial or retail. But mostly restaurants and bars is what we were attracted to him for. D Bagby: Small company also--J Bagby: Smaller company. Had the reputation of being able to do something like thisD Bagby: Had worked with the architect— J Bagby: Yeah, he had worked with our architect on a project before and yeah, I mean the architect firm went down in flames pretty quick. (D Bagby laughs) I realized, oddly enough, we got an apology email from him last week, which was--D Bagby: A little late. J Bagby: Frustrating two years later. But, yeah, they just weren't equipped and we didn't know that they weren't equipped. D Bagby: We didn't know enough to know that. J Bagby: Yeah. And then, you know, I spent countless hours going to the counters at the city to talk to the engineers, to talk to the-- D Bagby: The building inspectors. J Bagby: The building inspectors and just going back and forth. “No, we need this. Okay.” So, because I'm trying to facilitate--we're trying to facilitate this project and keep it moving. And there's obviously no one in the world has any incentive, but, or the most incentive than us to get it done. And so, we're just, like she said, we just took it on. We project managed, we--every day, we'd come here and walk through and see what was done wrong or what hadn't been done or why isn't, so-and-so working today, you know? And part of that was on the GC, part of that was on their architect, and they both fell down. The architect first and then the GC. We went through five superintendents here on our project to the general contractor. Downie: Oh dear. J Bagby: And by the end I was like, “Him or no one else.” And so, we got this last guy just to get through and get our building final then and everything. But you name a discipline, you name a part or a section or a wall. I spent time on it. She spent time on it. It's--so now, you know, we're like, we're telling them, we're like, “You guys get to go, you guys get to pack up your shit and leave.” And we get to turn around and actually do what we wanted to do six months ago, or, you know, a year ago. D Bagby: When we started construction, yeah. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: When we thought we’d be done, especially. J Bagby: We, you know, we need to spend time on--I mean, we're still taking on investors, but we have to start the project. We're still searching out for investors. We're still trying to find our key executive management team and how the hell we're going to run this place. I'm still trying to figure out how to get the rest of the brewery finished off and actually making beer because we didn't want to open without our own beer. And it was just, you know, just kept on, I didn't, I think I lost forty pounds and that last like six months of the other projects before we opened, just because I could never eat, I could never sleep. And I was constantly doing something on a project that sent my stress levels through the roof. So, it was very-- D Bagby: And then you get to operate your business. J Bagby: Yeah, and then you open and you know, there's five hundred people here on a Saturday and they all want food and beer. Downie: Excellent. D Bagby: Which is great, yeah. I mean, there is that question. I mean, you just, you don't know until it happens when you open the door for the first time. Is anybody going to be here? And I know that sounds ridiculous when you think of the size of this and even just people curious. Obviously, there will be people that are curious that are cruising by, but you really don't know. I mean, it is, you don't--you don't really let yourself think that because you can't. You just have to continue to stay true to your goal and your vision. And once you start, you can't stop. I mean, it's go time. And so, when you do finally open the doors, it's amazing. It is. It's kind of amazing that people are here. And I remember the first, like week we were open, it felt really strange that there were people here I didn’t know. I was like, “Who are these people? Oh, shoot. They're supposed to be here. That's right.” (Downie laughs) It was just very weird. And we had spent so much time here over the, you know, proceeding two years that it was--it was home. We were here three hours to one, the number of hours, or four hours to one, the number of hours we would spend at home for sure. And so, this was home. And so, we knew every contract, we knew every subcontractor. We knew everybody. And they knew us. And so, when it was time to let strangers in, (laughs) it was weird. But, you know, you get over that pretty quickly. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: Because they are spending money. Downie: Of course, talking about the ‘curious’ issue, are you going to come back? D Bagby: Yeah, of course. Downie: Because just a one-time visit isn't going to keep you going. D Bagby: That’s right. Yeah, that's right. And that's still something that's, you know, on the operational side that we are always striving for. We want to be that place that people are like, “I can't wait to go back there.” We're still young though. And I that's the counterpoint to that is first of all, never stop trying. I mean, there's always something we can do better, always something we can refine. Always a better way or a more efficient way or a way that's going to make our guests happier. So, we are always pushing. We never, ever stopped. And I don't think we ever will. That's just our personalities. And luckily, it's the same--those personality traits are reflected our management team. So, they all feel the same way too. There's absolutely nobody on that team that is not completely there with us. Ready to just keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And our staff, it goes all the way to them. The people that are attracted to a place like this to work here. They, you know, they like that it's family. They liked that it's unique and different. They like that we're always pushing the envelope, trying to come up with cool new things or new ways or whatever the case. And so, it starts to draw in people who are naturally attracted to that. And so, they have a really kind of an inherent flexibility that is critical, but we couldn't have scripted that. I didn't really realize that, but it is true. We are--we ask a lot of them. We ask them to be very nimble and to do something very different one day than they did the day before, because we're trying to— J Bagby: Sorry, I’ve got to go downstairs and talk to them for a minute. D Bagby: Okay. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: Okay, I'll be right back. I got to set up a potential account with some tasting. D Bagby: Doing some tasting. Do you want to bring them upstairs for a taste? J Bagby: You did ask a question and that was what attracted us to this? Just going to finalize that and say the space. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) D Bagby: Yeah, the space for sure was the deciding factor. But when he called me from here and I've told this story before, and he said--I asked, you know, the data, like, how big is it? What's going on? And when he started to rattle off the statistics, I'm like, in my mind, “There's no way this is going to happen. (Downie laughs) There's no way.” And then every little hurdle you cross over, you knock that domino down and then pretty soon you're signing your lease. And it still doesn't really feel real until then. And then even then it doesn't feel real until— Downie: But you've been disappointed once already so-- D Bagby: Yeah. Downie: So it was kind of like you don't exactly want to get too invested— D Bagby: Once you sign the lease though, and you are a personal guarantee on that. It's yours. And so, then it's like, what do you do with that? Because there is a certain amount of money that if you just--even if you decide to never do anything with it, you're paying on your own personal account for that. So, and we knew that it was a big risk of the landlords, the owners. We knew that we wanted to not disappoint them too, as another layer in all of this. But I really didn't believe it was going to happen until it started happening. (laughs) And then the train was going and there was no stopping it, which is good. Downie: Yeah. So, what about your background, Dande? As far, as you know, you said you worked in a Fortune 500 company. Well, what's your path that got you here? And to actually be supportive of something that you could have very easily said, “No, I don't want to do this.” D Bagby: Yeah. I still do say that sometimes. No, I'm just kidding. No, my background is really weird. But somehow it all sort of feeds into to all the things that we do here. So, I worked in restaurants in high school and a little bit in college. I ended up working for a very small sort of family-run or just a couple of friends started the small kind of Mexican food chain. It was a kind of a spinoff from the Rubio’s chain. So, they had helped Ralph Rubio start Rubio's and they started their own thing. And so, I, you know, started working there my first restaurant job and worked my way up into management. And I'm still friends with the owners of that. They've since sold it all off, but it was really exciting to be a part of a small, very small and growing company. When I first was hired by them, they had one location. And then ultimately, I think they had seven or eight. Not when I worked there, but at the end of the sort of end of the line for them. And what happened though, was that they set the bar really high. I mean, they treated this little single location, you know, eight hundred square foot taco shop. They treated it as though it was a corporate--very, very organized, very dialed in, very high-quality, high standards when it came to customer service and food service and all of that. Even though it was a walk-up counter. So that was my only exposure to restaurants was that. And so, it really, it changed how I saw things, whether it was from a business perspective or from a restaurant perspective. And that was sort of, that became my benchmark, for how to be. How to be a manager, how to be managed, how to treat employees, all of that stuff began then. And it was my first real job was there. And I worked there for many years while I was--and then I went to school--my degree is in biology from Cal State San Marcos (California State University San Marcos). Downie: My goodness. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. So, I was a molecular cell biology major. But, before that, I wanted to be a zoologist. So, I started at Palomar and my very first class, my very first semester of college at Palomar, was as zoology class. And it was just life science, check the box, get that out of the way. And I fell in love with it and it was everything. I loved it. It was--my instructor was amazing. I don't think she's alive anymore. Dr. Jessup was her name. And she was a genius and I just wanted to absorb a hundred percent of everything she could teach me, I wanted to learn it. And so that kind of led me-- I worked for the Zoological Society of San Diego for about seven years. So, I left restaurants and did that and finished my degree at Cal State and left. And I taught biology and environmental science at the high school level. I taught labs--biology labs--at the junior college level for a few years. And then ultimately worked for SDG& ; E (San Diego Gas & ; Electric Company) in their Environmental Science Department. And, that's about when I met Jeff. So, I had done all of this sort of teaching and I hadn't worked in a restaurant in a long time. And when he and I first met, he had, like he said, he had beer on tap, both at Oggi’s in Vista where he had been the head brewer and at Pizza Port Carlsbad. And I had always liked beer, but I knew absolutely nothing about it. It was completely foreign to me. I didn't even--it didn't really occur to me that it was something that you could learn about. It just sort of was a thing that existed. And of course that's--couldn't be more wrong (Downie laughs) even then in 2005, even then. And so he's like, “Well come and let's taste some beer at in Vista.” So, we went out there and he just did the tasting, not a flight. I mean he pulled--we had tasters of every beer that was on tap. There must've been a dozen beers or more. And he kind of just lined them up how you would want somebody to kind of learn about beer. And he just was like, “Okay, what does it look like? What does it smell like? What does it taste like? Where do you think that's coming from? What is that? Did you do--?” you know? I remember specifically the hefeweizen he's like, “Do you think we added anything to make that taste like that?” And I was like, “Well, yeah, you probably added some fruit or you added some spice.” And absolutely not. Just from the yeast, and that tied into my biology background. Downie: Right. D Bagby: And understanding sort of a little bit about, you know, yeast chemistry, yeast metabolism. And then it started to click. I was like, “Okay, this is cool.” And then of course that led into ales and lagers and how they're, you know, metabolized differently. And all of the life cycle and all of that stuff. And so that really kind of itched, or what do you say, like “Scratch that itch” or whatever that science-y stuff. I really, really appreciated on the cellular level, which I had kind of departed from working in environmental science. So, that was a really huge eye-opener and that was kind of it for me. So, we tasted through all the beers and that created this sort of framework for me that I still rely on today. That's just sort of styles and, you know, parts of the world. And, you know, this is like this. And that's like, you know, whether it's hops in English IPA versus an American IPA and why and how, and, even just the physical I'm like, “I don't know what hop is. I have no idea.” So, he went and he grabbed a handful of hops and was like, “This is what they are. This is what they smell like. This is what they look like. This is where they're grown.” Of course, that led into hop harvest. And that led into fresh hop beer. And I remember specifically that season going down to-- because he still was bartending. So, he had, he left Pizza Port or--excuse me, he left Oggi’s and Vista and he was head brewing in Carlsbad and he was still bartending at Solana Beach. And I lived in Cardiff at the time. And so, I would go visit him on his bartend. I think he would work Wednesday nights and same thing. He'd be like, “Well, taste this, have a taste of this.” And I specifically remember fresh hop beers that season because it was unlike anything I'd ever had before. They were--it was just amazing to me. It was this bouquet of--it really tasted like drinking flowers. And that was really exciting. So, every new experience was just something to be learned. Unlike Jeff, I loved school, I loved being a student. I loved studying and I still do. I still love to learn. So does he, but even in that, even in an academic setting, I loved at all. And so it created this never-ending quest for information and knowledge and then that tied into experience. And so, when we would travel to whether it was in California or abroad or wherever, it creates this sort of, I don't know, structure, if you will. This kind of map or pathway for learning that, you know, whether it's about people or history or the ingredients and where they came from. And so that became, it became a passion of mine as well. And this was pretty close to right away. So, you know, within the first year or so of us dating, you know, we were going to events, we were traveling for beer. We were, you know, it just became part of our shared thing. But also, I loved learning from him too. And, yeah, and he's right. We started talking about opening a place, or that he wanted to open a place, pretty quickly. I mean, it was certainly not something that was going to be happening anytime soon, but it was again part of the discussion. And so, when you're traveling somewhere, you're going--his family, his father's side is from Northern Arizona, Prescott. Little town called Prescott. So, you know, we were traveling out there once or twice a year to visit his grandfather and kind of hang out and there's Prescott Brewing Company. So, we'd go there and just kind of talk about whether it was the beers or the styles or the hop choices or whatever to--do you think how’s the service? Is that are--what would we do differently? What about the glassware? Does this seem right? And--or how's the check presented? I mean, everything, it just became part of the fabric of what we talked about. And, yeah, that lasted and it's still true. It's still true today. And we go places and we look at how just the, how the operational side, how people are solving their own problems and you know, are those things we can borrow or are they things that we would never do because they don't fit with who we are. So that's how, that's the weird biology-biologist into brewery owner. Downie: Everybody comes from somewhere. D Bagby: That’s right. Downie: Actually, you know, like you say, the whole hops chemistry. You know, Jackie Trischman in Chemistry at Cal State (University San Marcos) is working with Stone investigating hops chemistry. D Bagby: That’s awesome. Downie: So, you know, Bonnie Bade (Cal State University San Marcos) in Anthropology is medicinal plants, Native American medicinal plants, and looking at how those can be incorporated into beers and things, so… D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: So, it's--you can pull a whole lot of different disciplines and interests and experiences into-- D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: The whole world of beer. D Bagby: Absolutely. And that, and the whole historical piece too, is something that both Jeff and I are really passionate about. And that's a big reason why we have such diversity in terms of the beer styles that we brew here. He brews here because of that. They, you know, a Belgian blonde brings us--brings us back to Brussels. It brings us back to visiting with our friend Yvan (De Baets) from (Brasserie) de la Senne, you know? That to us is a big reason why we wanted to do this also is to bring pieces of these experiences that we've had all over the world right here. And if somebody is able, isn't able, or doesn't know they want yet to go to Belgium or they don't know they want to go to Germany or maybe they never will, you know? If we can bring a little piece of that to them, that's whether it's the beer, the glassware, the, you know, a little bit of history lesson through our employees. That's all--that's a big, that's a huge piece of this for us. So having a big staff is a challenge. Per slight understatement. Downie: How many employees do you have? D Bagby: We have about sixty employees now. Yeah. Which is the smallest staff we've ever had. We--when we first opened and you always open with more than you need, but we had over a hundred employees at one point. Downie: Wow. D Bagby: Which is a big, huge thing. Lots of people. J Bagby: Through all of that, through all of the construction, through all of the opening and employees (unintelligible), I like to tell people that absolutely nothing surprises me anymore. D Bagby: No J Bagby: Nothing. D Bagby: No, no. J Bagby: I've heard it all, seen it all at all. Been through it all. Yeah. Downie: And you're still standing. D Bagby: Yeah. We are. Yep. Downie: So, you've already said that you really don't look to expand beyond this site and it seems like it's large and you have plenty of elbow room but— J Bagby: We could even expand onsite because we have a building that we haven't really even touched--(speaking at the same time) D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Touched. Yeah. Downie: You’re kidding. D Bagby: Yeah. Downie: So you have expansion elbow room. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. Downie: But since you're not canning beers now, what are your plans for the future in, you know, distribution or canning or--? J Bagby: So, we've gone back and forth. What--we looked pretty seriously at purchasing a canning line. Mike Hess (Mike Hess Brewing) was selling theirs. So, I went down and looked at it, kind of ran some numbers and looked at it. But we wouldn't have been a good idea for cashflow for one thing. And the other was, we didn't have that output really. So, we'd have this really-- D Bagby: Beautiful. J Bagby: Nice canning line and it would be lovely to put a ton of beer in cans, but no output for it. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: Which, you know, cart before the horse or not, or whatever, it's sometimes you just have to jump in. And so, we decided not to at that point, but it is something that's on the mind, especially with a lot of our beers that tend to be growing in popularity and that we think would be really good in a package or in the proper package. So, that's still a possibility. But we haven't decided what step we're going to take first in doing that. So, there is a possibly of that in the next year or two, three. Other than that, I really want to continue pushing our draft distribution because it's something that we can do in the framework that we have. We have the beer, we have cooperage, we can get more cooperage very easily. And the capital outlay isn’t as much, and the space requirement is not as much or as intense as packaging. What else, what else? D Bagby: We one hundred percent self-distribute in California. So, we don't have a distributor anywhere. J Bagby: Out of state we have (unintelligible). D Bagby: Out of state, yeah, we (unintelligible). J Bagby: We’re not sending a lot out beer of out of state, yeah. (Aside to D Bagby, Forgot to tell you I talked to Matt Bonney yesterday about Washington.) D Bagby: Oh, okay, cool. J Bagby: So, we'll do some stuff up there, but anyway. (laughs) D Bagby: There you go. Heard it here first before I even heard it. (laughs) No, just kidding. J Bagby: And he called me during the party. D Bagby: Yeah. So self-distribution. We want to do that as long as we can. As a young business, (unintelligible), the margins on draft wholesale beer are already pretty, pretty low. So, you want to try to maximize as much revenue as you can at this stage of a business. There's also a lot of interesting things happening. I try to kind of dial into this a little bit as much as I can. There's a lot going on with this whole notion of hyper-local and, you know, being the kind of brewery that, and there are lots of them, that have these humongous, very ambitious goals to be in every state or to be in twenty states or to be all over the place right now. And I certainly don't disparage that, that's part of their business model and that's what they think is awesome. Go for it. But it's really feeling a lot like people are more, appreciating more and more, what's right near them. And you see certain breweries that are drawing back from that, that broad scale distribution more and more-- J Bagby: Or just staying where they are. D Bagby: Or are just staying where they are, yeah. They say steady is the new growth. So, I think we're just, we're kind of a cautious company. We don't take a lot of big risks. Maybe because we have such a gigantic property here and so much going on that we don't have to. I mean, we don't even have the energy really to make big plans. But, no, we do talk a about what's next and where, where are we going to grow. And I do think even locally--we, you know, Jeff said, when he tries to sell someone beer, we actually haven’t actively sold any beer. Every drop of beer that hasn't been sold over our bar here at the pub has been somebody coming and saying, “Hey, I want to have your beer on at my place.” So, they reach out to us either, you know, usually via email. J Bagby: That’s who I just met downstairs. And he is a friend, but they came to us to taste. More traditional sort of setup like, “Hey, can you send your rep by and bring some of your beers? I'd like to taste them on tap.” D Bagby: Yeah, we do not have a rep. (laughs) J Bagby: I'm the rep. D Bagby: We don’t have one of those. Yeah. (J Bagby laughs) Part of it is too--and so that’s, it’s kind of nice that that’s, because then we know the accounts that have come to us really already get it. They already understand what we do and appreciate that enough to reach out, but we do not, we understand that is not sustainable. And the growth that we really do want to realize on the wholesale side is only achievable with some outreach. And that’s something that is--we know, we both acknowledge that that’s really important. But we also, again talk about kind of risk aversion. We were—it's still too close to us. We don’t want to just hire a sales rep and tell them to go out in the world and sell the beer. It’s really hard to let go of it and to, you know, just be those, just say, “Oh yeah, go for it. Volume volume. Get it.” Because it still really matters to us who’s pouring it. How they’re pouring it. Are they taking care of the kegs? Is the glassware appropriate? Is it clean? Are the lines clean? All we need is somebody to have a beer like this Kölsch that I'm drinking that is so delicate. And such a light beer that, you know, if it’s not cared for it is going to be flawed. And you know, most people don't drink a beer and think that they don’t like and think that it isn’t the brewer (laughs) or the brewery. Most people do not say, “Oh, those lines must be dirty. That's why this does not taste right.” So, it’s just cautious and definitely overly cautious. I’ll say we are very careful. And, you know, that’s, at some point we're going to have to start peeling our fingers off those kegs a little more forcefully and get out there in the world and really see. We hear from time to time that people believe that we just don't have any beer to sell. Because we aren’t actively selling it, which isn’t true. We make a lot of beer and we sell a lot of beer over our own bars, but we definitely have some volume that could go out much more than it is. So, we’re working on it. Got our hands pretty full. (laughs) Downie: Now, this is something, you know, because you are both cautious people, but what if something happened and your landlord decided to sell the property? J Bagby: So, there's provisions in our lease that say that I can’t change our lease. Downie: Okay. Downie: It was very protective. D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: It was very protected line by line that thing to make sure things like that like they couldn’t say, “Oh, we are going to sell a parking lot to a developer for apartments.” They can’t do that, you know? So, if they sell it our lease stands. D Bagby: And we can buy it too, we have to be considered. J Bagby: We don’t have first right of refusal. D Bagby: Something else called that. J Bagby: Their landlord or their rep did not want to give that--our landlords have kids. I would not see them giving up this property to somebody unless we just came by and plopped the amount of money on them, which can happen. And, you know, I know that the people that own these shops kind of behind the alley-- D Bagby: West of us. J Bagby: The other side, are trying to develop it and turn it into apartments. J Bagby: I'm like, that is a six-year project. If Coastal Commission-- D Bagby: It’s the Coastal Commission. Downie: Yeah, it’s a coastal commission. Will even allow it. D Bagby: Yeah, if the city-- J Bagby: We are so lucky to avoid those things, you know? We don’t have a conditional use. It was in the beginning we had some neighbors that were complaining. And I think it was just because people were parking on the street. It’s public parking on the street. And they were just getting mad because they used to park in front of their house at a certain time of night. And it wouldn’t be a problem. You know, because we’re—anyway. Somebody came and complained and said, “Oh, well, I'm going to go to the city. And you know, I’ve already started signatures to get your conditional use removed and dah-dah-dah.” And I was like, “Well, that’s cool, but we don’t have a conditional use.” And (the city has nothing to do over what we do here as a business. Because we’re permitted as a right. So, (whispers) sorry about that. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah, it was, we haven’t really, honestly, for being as close as we are to residential, we have had virtually no issues other than the first probably month we were open where people were kind of caught off guard maybe by the volume. But that’s, I mean, at least as far as I'm aware, we haven’t had any issues. We haven’t had any issues. J Bagby: I had a couple of things. There was that one guy that, you know, I think he just wanted to come in and kind of rant. And I was nice to him. I just let him go. And when I said, you know, “I want to work with you. I want to work with the community, but you got to realize that, you know, the streets are public parking and unless you get that changed, which you're perfectly willing to try to try to do, but I don't believe the city is going to let you just for your spot in front of your house. And you know, I want to help you. We have the required parking that we're supposed to have for the use that we have here per our agreements with the city. And, you know, really sorry if there's any incidents or things that, you know, please feel free to call us.” Like just, you know, kill them with kindness kind of thing. And you know, reminded him that he really could not do anything about it. D Bagby: Yeah, you live on a commercial zone, basically the boundary of a residential and commercial coming together. And that can be a challenge, especially because there wasn't anything here, no operating business for years. And even when the dealership was still going, I mean, they wouldn't--there wasn't so much parking demand. Yeah. That would have ever affected them. So, I get it. I would be upset too, probably, but— Downie: But yeah. And change is always going to have somebody not happy. D Bagby: Absolutely. That's true. Yeah. Sweat: I actually have to go. I'm overseeing an event in Encinitas here in a second, so I have to run. D Bagby: I hope you don’t run into any traffic. Sweat: We’ll see what happens. (laughs) Downie: It should be pretty good by now. Sweat: I'll follow up with you tomorrow just to make sure you have everything you need and just see what any next steps are. But, let me know in the meantime if you need anything. Downie: Thank you, Holly. D Bagby: Thanks Holly. Downie: I wish you a safe and easy drive. Sweat: Thank you, I know. D Bagby: I hope so too. Holly, we'll look at those pictures today, too. I know you guys are asking and we just have had a crazy few days. Sweat: Yeah, we know with your party. D Bagby: Yeah. (laughs) Sweat: It looked like a lot of fun. D Bagby: It was a lot of fun. Sweat: And honestly, if you are only able to decide on like, a few, I could do the ones of Jeff just to get them to see. D Bagby: Yes, I'll do that tonight before I leave. For sure. And how many do we need to give her? Total? Or selection? Sweat: It’s in the email, like, how many you guys agreed to pay for. D Bagby: I can’t remember. Sweat: It might be one or two or Jeff. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: That we agreed upon. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: But yeah. D Bagby: Thank you. Sweat: It’s nice to see you both. D Bagby: You too. Drive safe. Downie: So, if you can still give me a little more time. I know I had just an hour, so I don’t (unintelligible)--. J Bagby: Sure. I might check in on that account in a minute, but yeah, if you have some more questions, for sure. Downie: You both sound like you're very, very invested in education, you know, which is a wonderful thing. What would you say, I mean, do you support any charities or causes through the brewery that you feel like you want to talk about? Or, are there plans to expand your reach into, you know, goodwill gestures besides listening to irate neighbors? (all laugh) J Bagby: It's hard, you know? We get approached almost every day about some sort of donation for something. We have an outlet on our website where you can fill out a form and apply. And while we like supporting charities and the community, it's difficult because there are so many of them. And we like to look at the ones that either we've supported either personally in the past, or that we have a connection to through a family member or a very good friend. Where we can say, “Okay, you know, this is important to us because of this.” You know, while we like also doing this, we're also running a business. So, at some point you can't--you have to close the doors a little bit on it and say, “Look, we want to help you out. But you know, you're asking—" we could do it. The easiest thing for us to do is donate beer. But the hardest thing for us to donate is beer because of the licensing required for the nonprofit to actually get it. And they don't understand that. Downie: I’ve run into that. (laughs) J Bagby: And we always have to be the one that's like, well, “We'd love to help you out, but there's this, this, this, and this.” Downie: Yeah, and more education. And what Stone did—because I approached Stone about some beer to maybe put into a scholarship raffle that we do through the Society of California Archivists I belong to. And it was, “Well, what did the ABC (California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control say?” And then I ran into the ABC and I just went, for the permits we'd have to get, it's just, you know, it would eat up what little money we would make. So, and I understand that completely because (unintelligible). D Bagby: Yeah, we’ve seen it. But, with that said, we are involved. J Bagby: Yeah, I mean, we just had two weeks ago or, not this past week and the weekend before, we had a gigantic breast cancer benefit festival on our parking lot that a lot of our staff members donate their time to. We donate beer to, we donate food to—yeah, we donate space. And basically, we host the charity. And that was something that I started with the woman who founded the festival back at Pizza Port. Downie: Is that Brewbies? J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's the biggest one that we have. And then this one that we just had almost raised almost fifty thousand dollars for charity. Downie: Wow. Wonderful. J Bagby: And so, you know, knowing that and having been involved with this one for nine of them now, and being in the beer industry in general, I'm always getting asked, I'm very diligent about when we get a request for a festival because sometimes, first and foremost, sometimes the festival isn't necessarily great for the charity. There'll be a promotional company--excuse me, that we'll get out there, go up to a charity and say, “Hey, we can make you five thousand dollars if you pull the license for this,” you know? But they don't realize the potential risks involved or the insurance liability that they have to take on, different things like that. And the production company ends up taking the majority of the money because the proceeds. Now it's illegal because one hundred percent of it with that one day ABC license is supposed to go to the charity. Downie: Right. J Bagby: So, if someone squats, the ABC can say, “Hey, we need to see your books.” And then not only does the charity get in trouble, which they may not even be aware of. Downie: Right. J Bagby: But that promotional company, and even the breweries could get in trouble because they donated to it. Another thing is on our side, not only are we just donating beer but probably donating two people's full day’s worth of time to get the beer ready to go to the event, to get all the equipment together, to drive to wherever it might be to set up, to pour, take it all down and bring it all back home, clean it all. And so, people don't realize what really goes into it on our side when we're donating. We're not just donating a beer, we’re donating quite a bit more so we're pretty diligent about those. But that's really the easiest way for us to support a charity or a community event, unfortunately. Downie: But those are facts that, you know, people need to be aware of. And you both talked about how much learning you've had to do along this path. D Bagby: We’ve done some kind of other fundraisers, though. J Bagby: Yeah, we've done some onsite things. D Bagby: There have been a couple of military things that we've supported and— J Bagby: And the dogs, yeah. D Bagby: So there's a few things that we really, really kind of key into that mean a lot to us. But yeah, I think as a— J Bagby: Firefighter-- D Bagby: Pint Project. J Bagby: Yeah. A couple of onsite things that were pretty successful and, you know, we're just--you get back to this, like you can't do them all, you know? And as not nice as it sounds, it does need to benefit us in some way as well. Because we are offering up a lot when we do these things and why we want to help the community, we want to help these people that need help in some way, we just have to be careful. D Bagby: Yeah. Exactly. Downie: Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, not every charity is a 501(c ) or is required and you get into all kinds of thin ice. So, very understandable. But, no. D Bagby: Now that's one of the things that I think is a benefit to us as Jeff has made it his mission and his absolute business to know as much as he can about ABC licensing. Just any sticky situations that are pitfalls. The San Diego Brewers Guild (a nonprofit organization that promotes San Diego breweries) just hosted like a ABC meeting at a local brewery a couple of weeks ago. And I feel like we knew a lot of that stuff that was mentioned, but it's still great to go and be a part of that. J Bagby: It’s like a refresher course. D Bagby: It’s a refresher. But you can just see in the room, people— J Bagby And you get questions and hands go up. And you’re thinking “You can’t do that.” D Bagby: Yeah. yeah. So, it was really interesting to see people's reaction to these rules that many of not all--I've been really long standing for a long time, but if you don't know, you don't know. And I think there's a lot of ask for forgiveness later, which may have worked in the past, but as the ABC gets more versed, they get--there are certain things that they were getting very particular about as they should. Downie: Well, once they see it as a continual problem, that it keeps happening, they're going to start coming down and— D Bagby: Yeah, and it's, you know, it is--I believe that it is your job as if you're going to have a license that you should know how it works and what--it's a responsibility. And it's hard for us to sometimes see other breweries who don't know. And that's fair if you don't know initially, but that blatantly break these laws all the time. And you don't want to see them get in trouble, but you also don't want to set up. It sets expectations on the customer side it sets expectations on other breweries’ sides were like, well, “They did it, why can't I?” And so of course for people like us who, like I said, risk averse, we want to make sure that we're--I mean, our biggest asset, those are the alcohol license. That's why we're here. So, if something happens to that, it gets jeopardized that's--that is a bad thing. (laughs) Very bad. So, yeah, it's, it's been talking about education. That's something that I've learned a lot from Jeff. And we've offered up if anybody has questions certainly here locally, you know, we're always available. People want to bounce an idea or, you know, find out more, we're happy to help. Downie: So, you're active in San Diego Brewers Guild. Because I saw you at Guild Fest (SD Brewers Guild Fest) and you just mentioned a recent meeting. Are there any other organizations you're active in or are members of--? J Bagby: We’re members of the Brewers Association, the National, um— D Bagby: CCBA. J Bagby: And the California Craft Brewers Association. Also, the MBA, the Masters Brewers Association of America. D Bagby: I'm actually a board member on the— J Bagby: San Diego. D Bagby: Brewer’s Guild. But yeah, there's a lot of those little things like that. J Bagby: I think those are the main ones, but those are all, I mean, there's some international stuff, but yeah. Downie: Yeah. What are you going to get involved in? I mean, again, it's kind of like the finding the charities that are actually going to be beneficial. Is that going to benefit you? J Bagby: (unintelligible) international. Well, yeah. I was going to say the only benefit for us because, you know, they have incredible conferences and technical courses. (Downie laughs) That would probably be the only reason for us to really be a part of those. And there's some competitions, there's some, some bigger European competitions that are gaining a lot of speed and a lot more Americans are actually sending beer over and winning medals. So, it's something to watch. But yeah, it's not like, you know, where we're going to Brau and Nuremberg every year or something like that. Downie: Well, that does bring up. When did you start putting your beers into competition? D Bagby: Good question. J Bagby: That was back when I was at Pizza Port at Solana Beach. We entered beers at Stone, but they weren't really--I didn't have anything to do with the recipes of those beers. Downie: Okay. You were an assistant. J Bagby: I was just standing there, but when I got to Solana Beach and was working with Tomme, some of those were my ideas and my things where I brewed them, or we brewed them together. It's a bit more intimate and I was a little bit more involved. So, I would say there, really. And that's where, you know, won, our first, or my first time across the stage. (laughs) Downie: Have you kept a list of all the awards you've won (unintelligible)? J Bagby: She did quite a bit of work on that before our business case. Before we opened. But I think she ended up just tallying GABF awards and World Beer Cup awards. Because there's certainly other things, too. There's like Alpha King. I’ve won that three times. That's the Hoppy Beer Competition that they hold during the GABF, that’s not associated with the GABF. Some awards at San Diego International Beer Festival, what do you call it? Beer of the Year, three times there. And some various other medals in, you know, have we ever entered LA county? A couple of times. So, you know, some things here and there. IPA festivas up and over North and Hayward. Years ago, I won medal at the Alaska Beer and Barleywine Festival. Downie: Oh, Alaska. Wow. You've really reached out here. J Bagby: It's a very long running, very famous festival. Downie: I’ve heard of it, yeah. But it just seems very interesting to me that if somebody were keeping a list of what beers they had won awards for, I think that would tell a story about some of the changes in styles and some of the expansion of styles of beers. J Bagby: Yeah, yeah. Maybe, I don't know. I was talking to somebody. I was in Miami at a festival this past weekend. A friend of mine, his anniversary for his brewery. And he throws a festival that coincides with it. It's invitational. Anyway, he invited me and I was like, “Yeah, I've never been to Miami. I'll go.” So anyway, I was talking to another brewer friend who was there and he was like, “Oh, well, you know, you won lots of IPA (India Pale Ale) medals,” and you and I was like, “Boy, yeah, I won some of those,” but also won in Belgians and a lot of different stout medals. And, I even have a couple of German pilsner medals. Some other like, you know, Scotch Ales, like Brown Ales. It's kind of a wide gamut. So, I don't know if my medal history would necessarily tell much of a story in that way. Maybe. Downie: Yeah. Well, I think the more pieces of evidence there are, the more our story can be put together. But have you ever done judging? J Bagby: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've been a judge at the GABF (Great American Beer Festival) and the World Beer Cup for thirteen years. Thirteen, fourteen years now. I don't remember my first judge GABF. It was like 2003, I think. So, yeah. I've been doing that for a long time and I'll be doing that this year in National. Downie: Yeah. I've heard comments that GABF has gotten so big and so many categories that has just really become kind of overwhelming. How do you feel about that? J Bagby: I wished that they would, on the organization side, that they would grow the competition to represent the growth in the beer industry. I get what they're trying to do and what then they have limitations, but sometimes I think they're being a little harsh on the restrictions on their side. You know, there's almost eight thousand beers in there, in the GABF last year, and I'm sure the World Beer Cup will be around that. And I think there's seventy-nine categories. They haven't expanded the categories too much in the last five years. I think maybe ten years ago there might've been sixty-something categories. So, it hasn't expanded a whole lot, but what has is the entries, right? So, brewers used to be able to enter around eight beers per brewery, or brewhouse, location into the competition. They've changed that and they have several different categories in ways, you know, like a Pizza Port that has five locations. You know, what if all five locations enter beers? Well, they have stipulations on how many beers a corporation, or a set of breweries, that are under one ownership can enter. So, every year that we've been a brewery, we've entered the maximum number of beers that we can enter into the GABF. And that makes it difficult because you only have four shots, right? Like we're sending four beers to the World Beer Cup. So, it's a more difficult. But so does everybody else. And so, everyone else has to make the decisions and the kind of cuts in their mind of which beers they want to enter, which ones that they're going to pass on for this year or this competition or whatever it is. So, it's still very fair. I think it's still judged very fairly. Probably the most fair competition there is in beer because of the qualities, the qualifications of the judges, and their palates and their history and their tenure as judges judging beer. It's all judged blind. It’s done very, very well. The problems I see with it are the categories that are masked, or you have over two hundred beers in the category: American IPA, Imperial IPA. I think American Pale Ale is pretty high. Some of these other ones that they get close to, you know, that are well over one hundred beers. You're getting into a situation where the algorithm isn't--so, you know, when they're spitting out their initial rounds and the algorithm that isn't accounting for past medal winners. Or beers--so you could have a round that has eleven beers in it, say it's American IPA, and that round might not have a single beer that's ever been in the competition before, or all new breweries that have never been to a competition for it. Then you could have another set of eleven beers where every single one of those beers has won a medal in the American IPA category before. And they’re, as far as I know, they're not accounting for that. And to me, that changes the game a little bit. Because even if you're a judge and you, at which has happened before, you'll get around and you'll be like, “Man, it was tough to pass on three of those beers, really could have passed on two or even just one and save the judges down the road some tasting.” Well, they require you to pass on three. They really push you to pass on three. If you absolutely can't then they want to hear why and want to hear an explanation. And so, I just believe that in that sense, you know, well maybe it's okay, but in the other sense where they're like, “Man, we had eight good beers. It was really hard to only pass on three beers.” So, now you've got this thing where you might have a potential medal winner that gets knocked out early because it was in a round with all excellent beer. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's--if I had a complaint about them, I wished that they would account for that. Especially in those--there's only, I'm talking to a handful of categories where that is really something I think that comes into play. The only other thing might be, like I said, to have grown with the competition or with the industry and allow brewers to enter more beers. But that takes more time. It takes more judges. They try to get the judging done in three days. If they didn't, they'd have to get another day, which is paying more, but you have to pay to enter the competition. So, to me, there's some work that probably could still be done. And there is a lot of brewers out there that are like, “Oh GABF. It's kind of eh.” You know, I believe in what my beers are and I send them and either I don't win medals or other beers win medals in the category that I entered that I don't think are as good as my beer. I think you have people that feel like that. But having been a judge, I've been on the tables. I've never been in a case where I was like, “That beer should have won a medal and it's not in the top three,” you know? I've never had a case where there wasn't a lot of thought and a lot of time spent into the beers that actually win medals. They’re medal-winning beers. Downie: Okay. I had a question and it’s just completely slipped my mind. J Bagby: Sorry. I know. Downie: No, that's okay. It still had to do with this. Um, I don’t know. (laughs) J Bagby: With the competition, or--? Downie: Well, oh, I know what it is. The brewers themselves decide what style of beer they’ve brewed. Have you run into cases where you taste a beer and you go, “This has--should have been in this category, you know. What were they doing putting it in here?” J Bagby: Yeah. Yeah. And the BA (Brewer’s Association) is real upfront about that when they tell brewers, you know, read the style guidelines and make sure that your beer fits into those guidelines and they give you everything. They give you a verbal description of the bitterness, color, aroma, mouthfeel, text--you know, everything. And then they also give you actual numbers for alcohol range, color range. Those are the things you need to pay attention to. And I feel like there is brewers that still don't pay attention to that. I don't know how or why. Or if they've just mislabeled their beers or what happened. But, they're—it’s pretty upfront. Like, this is--the judges have this when they're sitting at their table and they're going to read this before they start judging your beer. So, why would you enter something that doesn’t fit? Downie: Yeah, because you don't know why. Because I was thinking, well, maybe it's just their taste buds are different? Or it didn't transport well. (laughs) J Bagby: Yeah. I think, you know, for instance, she (D Bagby) sent me a picture one day. She had a Kölsch earlier. I can't remember what brewery she was drinking at. But she sent me a picture and it was this hazy beer in a straight sided pint glass. And she wrote “Kölsch--?” And so of course I went, “What does it taste like? Where are you at? Blah-blah-blah.” But a lot of people would look at that and go, “Well, Kölsch should be bright,” you know? Any German from Cologne is going be like, “That's hazy,” that’s got--you know. Even chill haze shouldn't really be there in a Kölsch. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: And a brewer's interpretation is one thing of what they call it on their menu board versus, you know, what category they might enter it in GABF. So, a beer like that might be an entered in a Keller beer. Because it might be an unfiltered Kölsch. So, they might say, well, “Yeah, it's German style Kölsch,” but it's actually a Keller beer because it was brewed in the vein of a Kölsch, but Keller is a German style beer. Downie: And that’s “K-E-L-L-E-R?” J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Okay. I'm still learning all the— J Bagby: Oh yeah, there’s tons. And that's-- Downie: There’s huge number of beer styles. J Bagby: Yeah, and there's, you know, historical beers that are becoming more popular and more rare, more obscure recipes and styles where there's a little bit more confusion or debate over what is actually correct. The Brewer’s Association does a good job of refining their categories and reviewing them each year. So, they take judge's interpretation—or judge’s comments on style descriptions. “No, no, this actually should be this way,” or “This should allow for this and this as well as this,” you know, so they do a good job of keeping up with that. But yeah, if you, you know, taste a brewer’s altbier at one brewery, and then he goes to another brewery and tastes another brewer’s altbier, they could be completely different beers. So, there that slide in judgment, but when you get into competitions, where's the category of your beer doesn't fit in it, then don't enter it. (laughs) Downie: Well, I mean, brewing is such a creative process. And there are as best as you can try certain factors like, you know, a Centennial hop may not be exactly the Centennial hop it was the year before due to the growing season, the factors there. So, it really is a creative process, but I've been kind of interested in the whole, you know, yes, I've seen some of these categories and descriptions and I'm like, “How can you always guarantee that those beers?”--well, obviously not. Not surprised. J Bagby: Yeah, there's interpretations of (unintelligible) category descriptions in different ways, for sure. Downie: Well, while you were meeting that account, Dande was telling me how, you know, when she first met you, how you were educating her into all the varieties of beers, you know? How she has found that to be so helpful. And then just the brewers I meet all seem to be that way as they to educate someone who--on the various styles that they're brewing or they're enjoying right at the time. Do you find that wearing? You know, continually trying to educate more people? J Bagby: I think when it's--if I was doing it every day, I think it might get—or the same exact set of beers every day or the same exact descriptions of the same person or the same, you know, whatever. I think I might get a little tired of it. But to me it's kind of exciting, especially when you have somebody that's open to it and isn't restrictive of themselves in their own palates. So, if you have somebody that's like, “I've never tasted German-style Weisse beer. I've never tasted American Red Ale,” which is kind of a better example. “I've never tasted Irish dry stout. I've never tasted—" you know? Whatever it may be. And if you can get five or six of those things in samples right in front of somebody, that's going to be a really cool conversation. Especially if that person's open to tasting and listening and identifying with what you're talking about in each one, you know? When you say, “Oh, what do you smell on that? What are you getting that? Okay.” Those types of things come from this ingredient or this timeframe or this hop or this malt and--or whatever other specialty ingredient might be there. And when the person identifies and goes, “Oh wow, that's really cool. I never thought of it like that.” All of the sudden you've got somebody who thought they hated German-style hefeweizen and going, “No, actually I'm going to order that the next time I'm out because I want to compare it or I want to see what it's like again, and kind of—"you know? I think people like, you know, connecting the dots in their heads. And if you've given them a little bit, just to even a little bit to bite on like English-style bitter, or an Extra Special Bitter, you know, what does that mean? What does that, it sounds, it sounds harsh, Extra Special Bitter. Well, no, there's actually some really nice malt depth in ESB (Extra Special Bitter) and it should be there. Well, it should have a firm bitterness, but what kind of bitterness? Well, it's not American piney, citrus, passion fruit, floral. And it's not that kind of hop it's the more herbal, spicy, earthy hop from the English varieties. And even just that much, and a person can go, “Oh, well, I really liked that.” Downie: And it makes it more accessible. J Bagby: And the next time, the next time I see it somewhere, I've got that connection in my brain to go, “Yeah, I know what I'm ordering it and there it is. Affirmation.” I'm drinking it. And it smells and tastes like I remembered. And I was told that it should. And I get that a lot where somebody will say, “Hey, you mentioned that, you know, this style beer can have this, this, and this. But I tried it over here and I got this, this, and this.” And that's sometimes where the brewer’s discrepancy is between styles or different ingredients or maybe just something is slightly different. But you can explain that away. And therefore, they've learned a little bit more and they have their file on whatever that beer was just got a little bit deeper in their head. So, the next time they try it and they connect the dots again. And I don't know, to me that's fun. That's exciting. And it's really exciting to see when someone's open to that and is engaging in that. It's kind of a little bit difficult when somebody says, “Oh, I don't like bitter beer,” or, “I don't like hops.” And you're like, “Well, you just haven't tried the right hops yet.” It's like, if you like beer and you're say you're a beer drinker, I believe--yes, you can have your favorites and the ones that you don't think are as great to you, but you got to try everything. You know, there's some newer, crazy styles out there I get, but the basics, ales and lagers, and the families within there, the style of families, if you say you're a beer drinker, you should know those or have a basic framework and understanding of what those are or have the desire to go, “I've never really tried that. I'm not really familiar with that, but I want to see. I want to see what it tastes like so that I know if I really like it, or I don't.” To like, find that out later, you know, like give yourself the chance to like it. Downie: It's like the three-bite rule with the kid and the vegetable. And then, you know, you got to at least try three bites of it. And then if you don't like it, we'll go from there. So that's a good way to do it. Now, do you have a favorite hop? Is there one that you like brewing with more than others? J Bagby: There’s definitely hops—plural--that I like using. We're a pretty classic traditional brewery. So, we stick to pretty traditional classic styles of beer. So, we're not using too many of the new, exotic, crazier hops. We're sticking to more of the classic American Pacific Northwest American hops and then the Nova varieties and then the English varieties. So, on the American side, you know, we're using a lot of Cascades, Centennial, a little Amarillo and Simcoe, and Columbus and Chinook. And that's kind of our core for the American side, but then the English ones are really wide and Noble hops as well. We use a lot of different varieties and again, not a lot of real new flashy ones, in part because of our contracts, we didn't know how and when our brewery was going to open. So, I bought a lot of hops because I was afraid that we weren't going to have any when we opened. So that drove that a little bit. The other part was just, yeah, I really liked those more classic American hops over some of the newer ones. Not to say that I don't like sprinkling a little of them here and there in brews, but I tend to favor those classic ‘C’ hops (referring to Chinook, Citra and other hops starting with the letter C.) Downie: And so you don't, from what you're saying, I'm hearing that you probably aren't planning on doing, you know, real strange and experimental beers either, you know? You're going to stick with the more--? J Bagby: No, I think if anything, I would pick some of the more obscure older styles. I’ve talking with some friends about a smoked wheat beer that used to be made that is actually--I believe it's actually a lager yeast and it's a fairly bright beer. But it has a smoked character to it, and a little bit of bitterness and wheat malt character to it. But I'm always afraid to brew smoked beer because I think, I always think that it's going to be me and like three other people drinking it. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Downie: Yeah, it could be a big mistake if you brewed it on your big system. So, do you have a small system that you can do little test batches on? J Bagby: No, it’s— D Bagby: It’s all or nothing. Downie: Well, that goes to being risk averse again. J Bagby: Yeah, we have a little lager on right now. I think it tastes fantastic. I just think it doesn't--I just think it's not exciting to people. It's a Belgium style beer. If you're familiar with Belgian style dubbel, which is basically like a Belgian style brown ale, but it has a Belgian yeast character to it. So, it's a little spicy and dark fruit and things like that. Well, take that and cut it in a little less than half with alcohol and flavors and everything else. We dropped it down to only about four and a half percent. It still has a lot of those characters, they're just a lot more mild and it's not as big and it's not as heavy. But it's not selling at all. (laughs) So, even somebody even called it dark Bud Light in the online comment. Downie: Oh dear. (laughs) J Bagby: That was fun to read yesterday. (laughs) D Bagby: That’s alright. It’s not for everyone. J Bagby: Nope. And that's exactly. That's kind of how we thought about it. Downie: One person's interpretation. J Bagby: Exactly, exactly. Downie: But yeah, if you're seeing that it's not really selling then, you know? You kind of-- J Bagby: Yeah, we (unintelligible)-- D Bagby: We had a few beers like, but that's, I mean, unfortunately, a few of them were Belgian styles. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But, Bruges Cruise was on for a long time. J Bagby: Well, that's because it was over eleven percent. We had people that loved that beer. But, we sold that at eight ounces at a time. D Bagby: Yeah, but we had it on tap for a year, also. J Bagby: (Unintelligible). D Bagby: They do A12. They do A12. Which is good. Downie: So, do you have much of a barrel aging program? J Bagby: We started one. We had, uh, we did twelve barrels and then we did another set with a different beer of just four barrels. All, most, all of that is gone now. So, we just brewed up Imperial Stout and we're getting ready to purchase thirty barrels. Just deciding what other beers we're going to put in those barrels and talk with the broker about making sure we get them as fresh as possible and which barrels they'll have available at that time. So that we're not filling barrels that have been sitting around drying out for months. They were nice and fresh. Downie: Yeah, you want to be able to extract something out of those barrels. (laughs) J Bagby: Exactly. But it's fun. I like doing it. But we do all straight up beer. We don't use any Wild Geese (blended whiskey) or-- D Bagby: Cupcakes. J Bagby: Or anything like that. (Downie and J Bagby laugh) So yeah, that’s fun. That's, to me, that's--I don't know, that gets to the uber fun side of brewing. You're like, “Oh, I'm going to put this thing in here.” Well, we had that beer that she was talking about in there for eighteen months and I just served it in Miami last weekend and it tasted phenomenal. Downie: (laughs) Love it when something works. J Bagby: Yeah. And sometimes they're don’t. That’s true. Knock on wood, we were pretty lucky with our barrels. Yeah. Downie: Okay. Well, I think I've exhausted all my questions. I learned a lot from you both. I've very, very, very much appreciated your time. D Bagby: Oh sure, our pleasure. J Bagby: If anything comes up or you're going through things and just feel free to email me or her and follow up. Downie: Come back with something that didn't record or transcribe or something. D Bagby: Don’t hesitate, we're happy to happy to help and also believe in what you're doing, and also-- J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: And also love to talk about all this kind of stuff, people that-- J Bagby: Yeah, it’s fun. D Bagby: People that are interested in it. Because, you know, we work so close to it, it's our life. But we are still--we are very passionate about it. And hopefully that comes through a little bit, even in construction stuff, and crazy things like that. Downie: I definitely see you have a future as working as a brewery construction consultant. (J and D Bagby laugh) Because really, you have gone through a lot of effort to educate yourselves and to do it right. And that kind of knowledge really should be shared. I mean, that's something I admire about Mike Hess. He wrote that, you know, ‘starting up a brewery’ webpage, but that still doesn't tap on everything. And especially, you know, doing something like this, of course every situation is going to change with every city you’re dealing with. D Bagby: But there are some basics that I think we would have really benefited from big time. And I think we would have heeded, we would have paid attention if somebody was like, “Hey, we just did this. Here's our experience. I'm here’s just how you can, you know, maybe avoid some of the pain, some of the pain points.” J Bagby: Yeah, the building part and you know, the construction management. I mean, I think part of that goes a lot. Like I can use the comparison as somebody's going to buy their brewing equipment and calling up three different equipment manufacturing and saying, “I want to buy a ten-barrel system, give me a quote,” and get three quotes and then just choose which one they want and order the equipment and get it sent. Well, I went up to the equipment manufacturer’s warehouse and talked with the engineers for two days before they even started drawing plans for my tanks. And then when they were about to start doing the finishing and they connection piping and all the process piping, I went back up there and stood in my tanks and looked at all the cores and looked at all the valves were and told them where I wanted to move things moved or changed. And the different specs on all--every single tank, not just the, the brewhouse stuff, but the cellar as well. Because you might get your tank and go like, “Why the heck is it like that?” And I kind of compare that to construction. Like we could have probably sat around and worked on other things and let them take forever to build this place and would have had something in the end, that would have been, but it wouldn’t been us and it wouldn’t been right. And that's just how we operate. So, I think while we spend a lot of time on that and we feel that it was absolutely one hundred percent necessary, some other people might be like, “Well, he didn't really need to do that. You could of—” D Bagby: Get by. J Bagby: But it's not us. I guess that was what I was trying to say. Downie: You have invested heavily in this, so why not have it right? But, Plan Nine (Plan Nine Alehouse) over in Escondido, I was over there one day and they didn't have any of their own beers on tap. And I said, “Gee, you don't have any of your own, I thought you were brewery.” And he said, “Well, we got new equipment and we've had continual leakage.” D Bagby: Oh no. Downie: And they, you know, this was like nine months that they had been dealing with it. So, you were exactly right in going--and I mean, even if you have to stand in your tanks and (unintelligible)— J Bagby: Well, and it’s kind of fun too. (laughs) Downie: Yeah, yeah. They will say, “Hey, I stood in my tank.” (all laugh) But, yeah. D Bagby: That’s too bad. Downie: So, something like that can go very, very wrong. J Bagby: Yeah, looking at welds and not (unintelligible). D Bagby: And also not having the support, because if you--when, you know, when you got your, whatever it is, whatever contractor you have or manufacturer having--actually, we're just dealing with the meeting before you got here or talking to a new point of sale company. And part of the reason is just a sheer lack of support on our current system. There's no one we can call and say, “Hey, you know our business, you know how we operate. These are the problems we're having.” There's just no one. And so, this other company that's--you absolutely have a person. So having your tanks leaking, you're losing money. You're, you know, that's literally money down the drain, and frustrating if you're a brewery owner, you’re a brewer, you definitely don't want to see your beer going down the drain. Yeah. Do you have the support you need from the manufacturer? Who's going to back up their work and if not, then pay a few more bucks and get somebody who will. J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Yeah. So, a lesson to live by. D Bagby: Yes, that’s so true. Well, thank you so much. Downie: Thank you. Yeah, let's see. Where's my stop button? (Downie and D Bagby laugh) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. 
 ; 
 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 
 ; 
 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 
 ; 
 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. 
 ; 
 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview February 21, 2018.
Description
An account of the resource
Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024.
Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations.
Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles.
Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time.
In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer; homebrewing; introduction of craft beer to the region; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery; packaging and distribution; charity work; competitions, judging, and awards; consumer education.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-053
Subject
The topic of the resource
Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.)
Brewers -- California -- San Diego County
Brewing industry -- California -- History
Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-21
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jeff Bagby
Dande Bagby
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Judith Downie
Holly Sweat
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Oceanside (Calif.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>.
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
California State University San Marcos
Brewchive(r)
Women's experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e6a0557324444a8c6a228b39903f5690.pdf
a53157df08f2af558a0dc48546221b23
PDF Text
Text
JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
(Some early conversation deleted.)
Sweat (00:05:30): Is this my copy or is this your copy? (Sweat referring to printed list of questions.)
Downie: You can certainly have that because I am just going to let Jeff and Dande, you know, tell me
what they want because that is just a list of ideas. You certainly do not have to address anything if you
feel like it is giving away company secrets or you are just not comfortable or you just forget about it and
tell me something else equally interesting and informative. That’s great. I love to record what I can get.
So, you know, it sounds Dande like you maybe got into this a little after Greg did. Excuse me, Greg--I just
said Greg. After Jeff did. So maybe we start with Jeff talking about how did he become interested in beer
or how did he get into the beer industry and--?
J Bagby (00:06:13): Okay. Yeah, so let's see. I started liking bitter beer, I don’t know, at high school,
younger age. It just was something that my friends and I found--a couple of friends--who really liked the
flavors. Liked the idea-Downie: Now, were you in this area or where were you--?
J Bagby: Yeah, I was born and raised in Encinitas. So, San Diego native.
Downie: Okay.
J Bagby: So yeah, around here. And, actually when I graduated high school, I bought that friend in
particular a homebrew set for his birthday. And so, we both messed around and that was my first
homebrewing foray, whatever you want to call it.
Downie: (00:07:01): Now where did you find your supplies for homebrewing up?
J Bagby (00:07:03): Yeah, that is what I was going to say. So, you know, that's the age before the internet
and cell phones and things of that nature. So, there is no-Downie: Do you want to give me an approximate year?
J Bagby: Uh, (19)93.
Downie: Okay.
J Bagby: (19)92, (19)93, (19)94, somewhere in there. And, so we had known a little bit, we had heard a
little bit, we had tried to go and fish beer from establishments even though we were not of age yet. But
at homebrew shop you can buy anything without an ID. So, at least back then you could. So, we
Homebrew Mart in Solana Beach. That's where I first met Yusef (Cherney) was actually the one that sold
me the kit. Then he went on obviously to do his thing. So, kind of a cool connect there and then they
kind of keep happening as time goes on. But, yeah, so we just messed around really. I mean, we re-read
things, read books. Talked to brewers when we could, when we traveled, things like that. We ended up
going to school together where we got more into it. We were doing all-grain batches and keeping a beer
on tap at our house all the time, as well as beers like Sierra Nevada (Brewing Co.), Anchor Steam (Beer),
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
1
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
Original Pizza, Wicked, Red Nectar, some of the Sam(uel) Adams beers. I don’t, what else we could get
our hands on that we felt was better. (laughs)
Downie (00:08:29): Now was there a bottle shop anywhere nearby where you could (unintelligible)?
J Bagby (00:08:34): There was a few. There was in Encinitas and downtown there was Cork and Keg
(Cork and Keg Liquors). There was a couple in sort of the Kearny Mesa area that were known for having,
you know, hundreds of bottles and typically they were not very good. But we did not necessarily know
that at the time (Downie laughs) because we didn’t know what we were tasting and not tasting.
Downie (00:08:51): Right. Yeah.
J Bagby: I did not know that some of these beers, well, they'd been sitting around on these shelves
warm for, you know, a couple of years. Some of them survived perfectly fine. And most of them, you
know, like, “Oh, that's what that tastes like, that's kind of weird”. So, when we can find fresh things or
more exciting flavors, that was obviously a fun thing. And yeah, just like, I think anybody did back in the
nineties, when you found a new bottle of beer, you kept it, or you kind of talked about it and told your
friends, “Hey, I tried this, blah-blah-blah.” It was, you know, I was rating beer before there was the
internet, before there was, you know, these things that we are so attached to. So yeah, that is kind of
where the appreciation started and, you know, throughout college, like I said, wherever, I would go and
travel, try to seek out breweries, brew pubs, if it was possible to talk to a brewer and get, you know,
whatever information I could, you know. “What kind of grain did you use this? What kind of hops are in
this? What is your process for this? And, oh, what size system do you have?” And, you know, it was fun
to do. And I was fun to go to cities that had older, richer brewing cultures than San Diego, you know?
Back then there was not even probably ten breweries in San Diego at the time. Especially none that we
had real easy access to. The easiest one for, for me, ended up being Solana Beach Pizza Port (Pizza Port
Solana Beach). Just because I had met people there and met the brewers there. I went there all the time
and were buying homebrew supplies from down the street. So, as it grew, you know, I finished school,
came back home. I worked summers at the YMCA in Encinitas running their summer camp programs.
Youth summer camp programs. So, I was heavily involved in that. But I always really liked--still liked
beer. Still went to festivals and—
Downie: What was your degree in?
J Bagby: It was communications, social science degree. You know, honestly, I just wanted to get done in
the school. It is not really my thing.
Downie (00:11:04): But you completed it, so “Yay” for you.
J Bagby (00:11:07): Yeah, yeah, I can say I have a degree. Whoop. (D Bagby laughs) So yeah, came back
home, worked that job or some aspect of it for a summer. And then I was hoping to stay on. I’d had
several--I've worked there since I was fifteen (years old). So, I had years of experience, knew the
program, knew everything and anything about it. So, it was hoping, well, maybe this will be a full-time
job, because the program had grown and grown and grown in the time that I've worked there. But they
didn't have a position. Good old nonprofits. So, I started just looking for a job. I was living in Cardiff with
some friends and I needed money. I needed something to do. So, through the YMCA, I had a commercial
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
2
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
driver's license to drive kids around, drive big old buses. So, I looked into driving jobs because they paid
pretty well. And I could probably get one quick.
Downie: Yeah.
J Bagby: You know, the degree did nothing for me, so. (laughs)
D Bagby: Well, it sounds like you didn’t really want it, too.
J Bagby: Well, I mean, it's not like you go, like, what industry are you going to be like? “Yeah. I have a
communications degree from UC Santa Barbara,” like there, so? How's that going to help us do blahblah-blah. There was no technology jobs. There was no social media jobs. There was no—
Downie: Exactly.
J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) I was, I kept going into radio or like news or—
Downie: (00:12:28): (speaking at the same time) But it would have taken time to get employed, and you
were saying you needed work now.
J Bagby: Exactly.
Downie: Which is certainly understandable.
J Bagby: Exactly.
D Bagby: So, think about that before we get the degree. (laughs) Just kidding. (laughs)
J Bagby (00:12:36): So let's pay attention and talk about themselves once it’s their turn. (all laugh)
D Bagby: Just saying!
J Bagby: So anyway, let's see, let's see, oh, came across the job, driving job for Stone Brewing Company.
And I remembered that I had been in Solana Beach the very first night they'd ever poured a beer and I'd
met Greg (Koch) and Steve (Wagner) and tasted the beer. And I was like, “Oh, this would be great.” You
know, I remember them, it's cool to see that they, you know, are still going and are making beer and
need a driver. So, I just interviewed with Greg and told him my whole story. And he was like, “Well,
obviously you're super overqualified. (Downie laughs) So, you know, you have the job.” And it was fun. It
was interesting to see some side of the bar and restaurant and beer industry that I'd never seen before.
Learning some of the weird rules that are still in laws that are still in effect today and delivered beer.
Drove beer truck for three months. (00:13:40): And Steve and I were at a festival. I would always hang
back after I was done and talk with the brewers and see what they were making and see what was
coming on and things like that. And Steve was like, “Well, we need another body in the brewery. We
need somebody else.” And I was like, “Yeah, sure. I'd love to.” I was like, “Who do I give these truckies
to?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So I actually found the guy that took my position as a driver. And he's
still my Stone rep(resentative) today.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
3
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
Downie: Oh my gosh.
J Bagby: Yeah. I still work for Stone in different capacity now, obviously. But yeah, he was a bartender at
one of our accounts, he was actually at Pizza Port and he's like, “Oh, how's it going over there?” And
“What's it like?” and I'm like, “Well, if you're interested, you could come check this out.” (00:14:27) He
was a bartender, so he could still bartend and do that. And so, yeah, he came over and I taught him the
routes and boom, he was the driver and I moved into the brewery. So, I learned there, primarily from
Lee Chase and Steve Wagner. Their methods to brewing, I'll say, which I still today, I think if you ask
about mentors on here, definitely those two guys are some of the first. And they gave me a lot of
introductions into people like Skip Virgilio, Yusef Cherney, Jack White, Chris White, Gina and Vince
Marsaglia, where I spent hours in their restaurant. Several other people that are still working in beer
today, and still active. And, you know, we all kind of, you know, kind of go, “Yep, you were there,” you
know, when you have these people that have been open for five minutes. (Downie laughs) Not to say it's
bad, but you know, it's nice to have that kind of a bond and that kind of a connection to people that
remember when there wasn’t all the things that there are today.
Downie: (00:15:33): When it was a struggle.
J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yeah, big time.
Downie: (speaking at the same time) I mean, not that it isn’t a struggle now to run a business and to
start having all that, just to be in the first, the forefront of things.
J Bagby: Oh yeah, there used to-Downie: There is still some special barriers.
J Bagby (00:15:47): When I was living in Cardiff, in driving for Stone and then actually working in the
brewery for Stone, we would go to events like every weekend. Every Friday and Saturday night, you
know? Because the sales reps are like, “Hey, can you guys come down and help promote?” Or, you
know, whenever we went to somewhere and be like, “Hey, do you have Stone beer on tap?” And they'd
be like, “What the hell is Stone?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) You know, and now you can't find
somebody that doesn't know what that is.
Downie: Right.
J Bagby: And back then, it was totally different because people weren't paying attention. People didn't
care. There was five tap handles and all five of them are taken up by mass-produced beer, you know?
The Heinekens, Amstel Light, Guinness, New Castle, Bud, Bud Light, Coors Light, Miller Light, not Corona,
it wasn't going on tap back then but it was in the bottle under the bar. So, it was tough. It was tough for
them to gain ground and getting space. And because they came out with a Pale Ale, they were in an
immediate competition with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, which had already, you know, been around for ten
years at the time. So, you had that battle. You have this well, “What's, what's different from you? These
guys have been doing it for a long time. They make this Hoppy Pale Ale. We've had it on tap. What's the
difference?” So yeah, a lot of early struggles, a lot of, you know, almost telling--I like to say this, like
Stone told people what to drink. When they came out with a beer like Arrogant Bastard and they came
out with a beer like Stone IPA, and it came out with Smoked Porter that came out with these beers that
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
4
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
no one was used to drinking and they were like, “No, you're going to like this, because this is what we
have to offer. (00:17:15) And people would taste it. And I think combined shock, new flavors, new
tastes, things they'd never had before, they really grabbed onto it. And they were like, “No, this is, this is
cool. I really like this.” Not necessarily knowing why or knowing what about the beer that they were
actually tasting. Just that it was exciting and it was new. So, I learned to brew on that, (laughs)
professional thirty barrel, professional brewhouse pretty quickly. Helped create the first Stone Barley
Wine, Old Guardian. Lee and Steve and I each did five-gallon test batches. And then we, we tasted them
all and created a recipe. So, that was fun. And few anniversary beers, you know, when they were taking
Stone IPA and Double Stone IPA and Triple Stone IPA for the anniversary beers. Those beers just blew
people's minds back then because no beer had had that kind of aroma and power on the hop side, you
know? (00:18:20) And they're not unlike a lot of West Coast IPAs that are still made today. So that was
exciting. The Y(MCA) came calling somewhere in that first year, year and a half that I was in the
brewhouse. I got hired at Stone in September of (19)97. And I worked there through sometime in
(19)99. Okay. I'm trying to remember exactly when, but I did go back to the Y full-time because they
actually have a full-time job for me and they needed the help. So, over the summers I would work a
hundred-plus hours a week because I’d work a full-time job at Stone Brewing. And then I would go back
over to the Y and help them with everything that they needed for the next day or for the next week of
things I hired and trained. Yeah, it was crazy. Monitored staff, bus drivers, all these things while I was
still working at Stone. (00:19:13) Left Stone to do the Y thing after one of the summers, because I was
like, oh, it's too much. And they were going to give me a little bit more money at Y. So, I went and did
that and then got stomped on over there. Got passed over. And I was like, “You know what? I'm done
with this. I've given my life to you guys and saved you guys several summers and I'm over it.” So, went
back to beer, got hired at White Labs (Brewing Co.) in San Diego. I had known--by this time I had known
tons of people in the industry. I had done festivals for Stone. I had worked for them in all sorts of
different capacities and also knew the Pizza Port people really well.
Downie (00:19:54): So what year--when did you get hired on White Labs?
J Bagby (00:19:58): That was probably (19)99?
Downie: Okay.
J Bagby: (19)99, 2000? I can’t—I’m not positive on that. But somewhere in there. Because I definitely
left--I left both the Y I think the--right before the 2000 summer started because they had made some
really bad decisions and it bothered me. (Downie laughs) So, let's see. I worked at White Labs for-Downie: As a brewer?
J Bagby: No, as a sales kind of yeast consultant. Answer questions for people, take orders, you know.
Downie (00:20:34): Was this at their--where they are now? Candida Street or--?
J Bagby: (00:20:38): No, this was the location before that. (Silverton Avenue, San Diego location.)
Downie: Okay.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
5
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
J Bagby: A little--it's kind of an interesting place like offices on front, warehouse in the back, but much,
much smaller than where they are now.
Downie: Yeah.
J Bagby: (00:20:50) But it was cool. It was definitely educational. It was neat to get to know Chris and
Lisa (White) better as well as one of their other then-partners, Chris Mueller. I had already known all of
them and met all of them so, it was kind of nice to get a job and work with them. And it was okay. It just
wasn’t--it wasn’t exciting for me. And I wanted to get back into the brewhouse and I wanted to get back
working with actual beer. So, kept in touch with Pizza Port and the people there, the whole time. I got
hired at Solana Beach as an assistant brewer. And so, I was an assistant brewer there and bartender
there-Downie: And who was head brewer at the time?
J Bagby: Tomme (Arthur), at the time. But we had become friends, gosh, right after he got hired there
because I knew the brewer before him. And then they're like, “Oh, that's the new brewer.” So, I just like
introduced myself and said, “Hey, I really like these beers here and blah-blah-blah” So we just got to
chatting and hanging out and doing all sorts of different things. And you know, even when I was working
for Stone, we connected just because it's, you know, another brewery in town. (laughs) And back then—
Downie: (00:22:00): Well, it shows the value of networking—
J Bagby: Yeah.
Downie: And knowing people, it makes a big difference.
J Bagby (00:22:06): There's also a way to learn back then, you know? Steve and Lee were great and
taught me a lot, but also learned a lot from Tomme. And I also learned a lot from a ton of other
breweries that I met back in the late nineties and early two thousands. All across the state and even into
Arizona. The guys at Four Peaks (Brewery Co.), still good friends of mine, even though they sold their
company for who knows how much, they won’t tell anybody. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) (00:22:30)
Places like Marin Brewing (Company), Anderson Valley (Brewing Company), Russian River (Brewing)
now, when he was still in Temecula back then.
Downie: He was Blind Pig (Brewing) back then.
J Bagby: Yeah, I had met him (Vinnie) and Natalie (Cilurzo) back then. Untold numbers of, you know,
going to the Great American Beer Festival (GABF) for the first time was probably my biggest eye-opener
to all of that and meeting more and more people because now there was the whole U.S. and all the
brewers in the U.S. in one room and back then it was easy. You could go and talk to people. I was
working for a brewery at the time and that was 1997. It was my first GABF. And I'll never forget going up
to people and trying beers and went, “Oh my gosh, that's awesome,” you know? And just making that
acquaintance. And I know a lot of those people still today that I met that year at that GABF. So really
cool stuff. (00:23:29): And that just kept building, you know? Every time I could go to a conference,
every time I could go to another out-of-town festival. Meet more people. (laughs) So, you know, at
Solana, I was there for probably two or three years doing assistant brewing and bartending. And then a
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
6
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
position opened up. I had met Tom Nickel through all of this too. Because he was good friends with
Tomme. He was a part of the early Ballast Point (Brewing Company) and Home Brew Mart. Tom and I
are still very good friends today and Tomme. And so, he said, “Hey.” He was working for Stuft (Pizza and
Brewing) at the time before it was Oggi’s. And then when it became Oggi’s, they had one in Vista that
opened, their brewer was leaving. And so he's like, “Hey, if you want a head brewing job,” I was like,
“Hell yeah.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) (00:24:19) So, took it. I had interviewed with a couple others.
It was just, well I interviewed at Kona and just decided I didn't want to go and live on an island. (laughs)
So, and there was an opportunity in my backyard, so, why not take that? So, did that for a while. That
was fun. That was really the first time I got to see my influence on brewing, make a difference for
somebody's beers or somebody's restaurant or somebody's beer culture, you know? It was the first time
I'd won medals on my own with my own beers. You know, we'd done very well on Solana Beach. But this
was cool because it was like my stuff. And worked with Tom (Arthur). He became their corporate brewer
for a short time up in San Clemente. And I worked at that location for a while until Pizza Port Carlsbad
had an opening for a head brewing position and that was a bigger brewhouse. (00:25:14) That was more
beer and it was more money and it was Pizza Port was kind of my first forte. So, I went back to that and
ran, within a year, was running all the brewing operations on all of their pubs. Helped them open Ocean
Beach. Hired, trained, promoted a ton of different brewers who are still in the brewing industry today.
Yeah, you’ve got Yiga Miyashiro, the head brewer at Saint Archer (Brewing). Greg Peters, who's the head
of Barrel Program there. Ignacio Cervantes, who was the head brewer of Carlsbad after I left and then
took over (Pizza Port) Bressi Ranch and is now working for a new company in San Diego (Chula Vista
Brewing). Noah Regnery, who also part of that company and Brandon Edwards is also a part of that
company. (00:26:05) All guys that were head brewers at Pizza Port went on to several different
breweries and have all kind of come back together in one way. I'm sure there's other people. (laughs)
Downie: Yeah.
J Bagby: But it was a good experience and, you know, going all the way back to my Stone days, you
know, Lee and I worked in this warehouse by ourselves, you know? Day in, day out. So, you get in these
conversations, you're running, you know, a four head making bottling machine for eight hours while
you're filtering a beer, you know? Like, you know? You are brewing, you get into conversations and you
know, both of us were like, “Yeah, I really would like to own my own place at some point,” you know?
And my thoughts at that time were, I'd really like to just have a beer bar or have a place because I've
enjoyed that aspect of it. (00:26:54) I enjoyed teaching people about beer, telling people about new
styles and new things that were coming out or that the Pizza Port had just come out with. So, I said, “I
don't know what, I just really want to my own place. And Lee was like, “Yeah, me too, me too.” So, it's
funny that both of us have had that come trueDownie: Yeah.
J Bagby: Over time. But in the Pizza Port years, having, you know, kind of pulled from my YMCA
experiences with hiring and training people and building sort of a management approach to running the
bars at the Pizza Port, they were, for lack of a better term, they were pretty chaotic and not very well
managed. And the companies were, even though they were making money, hand over fist, they weren't
making as much as they could because they were losing money, hand over fist because of their bar staff.
00:27:41) So, I tightened up that. I taught their bar staff and what, you know, beer education programs,
you know, you had to spend a day in the brewery with me, all of these things. And that carried on to all
of the locations. And in doing that and forging that, that's when, you know, I started having
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
7
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
conversations with Dande. We had met and I showed her--actually I was still working at Oggi’s when we
met. And, you know, started talking about, well, “What do we want, what do you want to do with this?
What would you do with this?” And I was like, “Oh, I want to open my own place.” And it was funny
because people would come in while I was brewing in Carlsbad, say, “Oh, we're going to open a
brewery.” And I was like, “Oh, cool.” Well, this is, you know, “I've been doing this for a really long time
and I'm not ready yet, but you know, good on you.” Or somebody would come in who had just opened a
brewery and I'd want to help support them. (00:28:32) So, we had guest beers at Pizza Port, we would
put their beer on tap and, you know? I would talk it up and everything. And then it was funny because
by the time I left Carlsbad, I didn't have that approach. I was like, “Okay, bring your beers in and then I'll
taste them and we'll see what we can do.” Yeah, “We'll give you some feedback or we'll see if we can
get you into rotation or not,” you know? We have a big board, there's a ton of trends, and there's a ton
of spots. They're almost always taken whatever the case was, but I wasn't as eager to just blindly accept
the keg as I had been in the past, when there was, you know, “Let's promote local beer and let's get this
scene going.” And it transferred all the way into here because now there's even more breweries.
(00:29:15) But now that I'm one of those people that's trying to sell beer to people. (laughs)
D Bagby: Yeah.
J Bagby: It's always so-- I get it. And, you know, hopefully, you know, the things that we had talked about
before we opened and the things that we wanted to do is largely what you see today. When you come
here and it's not just a beer aspect, it's a food aspect, it's a space and feel. It's also our cocktail and
spirits program, wine program. All the things that we do here are things that we talked about ten years
ago. Of course, it took us a very long time to get to that point. And I think we've surpassed many
mountains in that process of getting to where we are, which is something that feels really good. But it's
also a constant struggle when there's, you know, things that we deal with every day. (00:30:09): And
somebody asked me the other day, “Oh, would you go back and do it again?” Yeah, I would. Hopefully I
know a little bit more. (all laugh) As Dande was talking about earlier with managing the construction, but
it's been a crazy, crazy road. It's been fun to have been a part of San Diego beer, to have kind of put my
efforts into not only just promoting the people that I worked for, but training other people into that and,
you know, really teaching and promoting what good beer is and making sure that I did everything I could
to make sure that San Diego was seen that way and perceived that way across the country and across
the world. And I believe that I still do that today, even though there's one hundred and fifty or what odd
breweries in town. I still make my efforts to make sure that that happens if that makes sense.
Downie (00:31:07): Yeah, it does.
J Bagby: Cool.
Downie: So, what made you decide to basically take down Continental Motors? (J and D Bagby laugh)
What made you decide on taking this piece of property and rather than taking over-J Bagby: Good question.
Downie--a building that you could just kind of refurbish?
J Bagby (00:31:25): Yeah. Well, I kind of still ask myself that question a lot. (D Bagby laughs)
D Bagby: Depends on how good the day is going.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
8
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
J Bagby: That 3,000 square foot warehouse looks pretty cool somedays. (laughs) No, we had a location in
Encinitas that we were pretty fond of. I wanted to be the first person to make beer and Encinitas since
there was one little tiny spot that was open for like nine months in downtown Encinitas called the Red
Kettle.
D Bagby: The (19)80s?
J Bagby: And it was like (19)89 to (19)90, something like that, I think it was open. And sounded like the
guy didn't know a whole lot about what he's doing. And it would be interesting to see if you find any
more information on that.
Downie: There’s very little on the Red Kettle. I’ve been looking.
J Bagby: (00:32:07): There's like one article you can still pull up online. Vince Marsaglia, I remember he'll
tell me stories. He's told me stories about going in there and talking to the guy about brewing. But
anyway, I wanted to be like, “No, I want to open up a brewery and want to, you know, it's not going to
be a restaurant with the little kid in the back.” Like, yeah, I want to do that in Encinitas ‘cause Encinitas
neighborhood made it look cool there.(32:30) But building situation fell through. We had spent some
time, even some money getting people together. We had met with everyone at the city of Encinitas. So,
we knew it was going to be a bit of an uphill battle with what's going down there on the Coast. It was on
Coast Highway in Encinitas, big, beautiful, gorgeous eighty-three hundred square foot building with a
wooden barrel ceiling and twelve-foot brick walls. Gorgeous place. (00:32:58) And the landlord--we had
never actually spoke with the landlord. We had only spoke with his representative and he had edged us
along the way. “Yeah, that's good. It's good. Yeah. That's no, he's, he wants to do this.” And we put in
our LOI (Letter of Intent), you know, spent, like I said, I spent time with the city. This is what we're
thinking about doing. Architects, all sorts of things. Structural engineering, because the building's old. It
was an old Safeway or something, I think.
D Bagby: (33:23) It was a grocery store.
J Bagby: Yeah, it was a grocery store at one time. That's why. And all of a sudden we just weren't hearing
anything back from the rep. So, I just called them up and, “Dude, what's going on?” Like we were going
forward, we think this is happening. We've heard nothing. And he just basically said, “No,” without, you
know, I tried to reach out to the landlord. (00:33:48) The owner said, “Hey, just meet me. Just--let's have
a conversation.” Could never get there. And from what I hear, that guy's kind of a maniac, so I'm kind of
glad we didn't get in that situation. (D Bagby laughs) But I do miss the idea of being there in that building
and being in Encinitas. I think that would have been really, really cool. But-Downie: As a hometown boy.
J Bagby: (34:12) (laughs) But, we took that setback. Or, yeah, it was a setback, because we were, you
know, not that we'd put all our eggs in that basket, but we definitely—
D Bagby: (00:34:25): Several months.
J Bagby: But, yeah, we spent several months of time on it.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
9
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
D Bagby: We kind of mentally moved into it too. You start to really put yourself there and how to Jeff, as
you mentioned earlier, like, we had been talking about these ideas that you now see here for a long
time. And so, you start to sort of layer those ideas over the space and figure out how things might go.
And, it was really--it was a huge disappointment.
J Bagby: Yeah.
D Bagby: But we got over it pretty quickly and moved on and...
J Bagby (00:34:51): Yeah. So, we decided to, not to stop, but to kind of regroup. We got married and
after we got married, we decided to enlist the help of a commercial real estate. So, we, through some
friends we found a really good broker. And he gave--started just giving me--I met with him--he gave me
no less than I think a hundred properties throughout the county to look at. And we had already found
out a little bit on our own through some other connections, you know. Basically, no one's going to give
you any cash. If you're in a strip mall, you're going to be paying even though, your rent might be lower,
you're going to be paying other fees that make that rent go back up. And they basically only take
national conglomerate stores that have very, very deep pockets these days. Not too many private strip
malls out there taking breweries and first-time owners and let alone, “Oh, you want to open a
restaurant and a brewery? Okay, yeah. High risk, high risk. No, don't do it, all those things.” (35:49) So,
we sought out to find private owners and properties that started to fit what we what we had or what we
wanted on there, which was coastal North County, enough space for a restaurant, enough space to have
a decent sized brewery, and a space that will allow for indoor-outdoor dining. We love the aspect of
letting people or giving the people the opportunity to eat outside in this gorgeous weather that we have
almost year-round. So, I'd never thought about Oceanside, but I knew that anything in between Del Mar
and Carlsbad was going to be extremely expensive and extremely difficult to find. Especially for the uses
that we wanted to do. You know, we were trying not to have a conditional use permit. (00:36:38): We're
trying not to deal with the (California) Coastal Commission. We're trying to get into a spot where we
could build or remodel, I should say, for the most part.
Downie (36:47): Yeah (laughs).
J Bagby: But pretty much ended up re-building. If you saw what we did to this place before we rebuilt
it—
Downie: Yeah.
J Bagby: We basically tore it down. Anyway, he gave me a list of seven, eight properties in Oceanside
here. So, I just grabbed my camera, my notebook, and my bike and rode them all. And I came across this
one and it was--you could go all the way around it, but you couldn't see much. Where the brewery is
now, were solid roll-down doors. It was their maintenance garage. Up front was a showroom, so, I could
look in the windows there. That building to the south, you can kind of look in there too, but you couldn't
tell what was exactly going on over here. (00:37:28): You can see a little bit, all closed, looked like it had
been, somebody had moved out. And so, in my head it just started clicking and I'm like, “Oh, what if that
was there? And what if we put, you know, the brewery in here? What if we did this here?” I took, I don't
know, fifty pictures of the place looked at the other properties and went home and told her. I'm like, “I
found it.” And she's like, “What are you talking about?”
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
10
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
D Bagby: You actually called me from the space. (J Bagby laughs)
J Bagby: I’m like, “It's an old car dealership.” She’s like, “You're fucking insane.” I’m like, “Get in a car,
come down here.” (all laugh)
D Bagby: It’s basically what happened.
J Bagby: (laughs) So, yeah, we just kind of went from there. We told our broker, “Hey, can you, you
know—" super sensitive about contacting the realtor—realtor rep, landlord, anything like that.
D Bagby (00:38:14): Because of our experience in the industry.
J Bagby: Yeah.
D Bagby: We wanted to make--just kind of proceed cautiously. And we did not have our hopes up. We
had no idea what they would--what their response would be to any kind of inquiry.
J Bagby: (00:38:21): We obviously originally thought that they wanted car dealerships to take it over
again. Just because they were set up that way. They have the lifts, they had the excess parking. They
had, you know, frontage on South Coast Highway. There's seven other places, you know? So, we thought
that's what they were going for. And they originally, they kind of said, “Yeah,” because use is that, it'd be
easy for their somebody to just take it over.
Downie: Right.
J Bagby: And a couple of inquiries they had because the space was so big and nobody wanted it all. They
would want just that building or just the parking lot, or just part of this main building, main parcel. So, I
said, “Well, we're kind of interested in all of that.” (laughs) And so anyway, the original conversation
with rep-between-rep, the idea of a brewery got brought up by the rep from here and unsolicited-D Bagby: By their broker, yeah.
J Bagby: Unsolicited from our broker at all. (00:39:20) And I was like, “Yes. Okay, cool.” And so, I'm like,
“Hey, can we get in it? Can we look around and see what's going on?” So, the very first day we came to
look at it and the landlords was here, the owners were here. And they wanted to meet us and they
wanted to hear about what we wanted to do. And if we thought the space would work. And they're still
friends of ours today. They still come in here and eat. His father was from Bamberg, Germany, which is a
huge brewing scene in Germany and malts. There's two big malt companies in Bamberg. Then I said,
“Well, I buy malt from Bamberg.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, we had this, you know, this back and
forth. Their son is into beer. And he really liked the idea of the legacy of the property that his father had
started going into another family business of some kind. I think that probably in the end was what
attracted them the most to us. But we poured our hearts out like, “Hey, this is what we want to do. And
we totally get it. Like, you know, we've never opened a business. This is a huge spot. We have to raise a
ton of money.” All these things, but we really want to do it.” And they went for it.
D Bagby (00:40:34): Much to their credit, honestly.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
11
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
J Bagby: Yeah.
D Bagby: They took a big risk on us. And, it's a big point of pride for Jeff and I-J Bagby: Definitely.
D Bagby: (40:41) -- to count them among legitimately among friends. And, we're just, we're so grateful
to them for just being open-minded. It was their family's business that was here and then that they had
to close and they still own the property. And they, you know, we have a long long-term lease and several
options. So, we don't own the space. I'm sure the property will stay in their family forever, which I think
is fine. It's perfect. But they just really--they were very interested in us as people and-J Bagby: Yeah.
D Bagby: (00:41:13): --what our vision was and what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it. And
I think that aligned, even though they're totally different industries, it really aligned with their values.
And, yeah, much to—
Downie: Their European background.
D Bagby: Yeah, definitely that that's probably part of it. (laughs) But I remember when they finally
agreed, it was sort of like, obviously it's exciting, but it's also instantly terrifying.
Downie: Yeah.
D Bagby: You don't--And we didn't even realize at the time what we had just done, I don't think.
(Downie D Bagby laugh)
J Bagby (00:41:46): It took me six weeks to get the lease exactly where we wanted it.
D Bagby: At least.
J Bagby: And it's like, I think it's sixty pages of like, eight, nine-point font. It's like line-by-line and you
just, you have to know, “Okay, what does this lawyerese mean?” And then go and read through and go,
“Okay, no, that's what we don't agree with. Here's the change we need,” you know? And so, we just-the back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And then we start with contractors interviewing
contractors, and that is a whole fiasco in and of itself because they're intense. And they realized that in
the end, throughout this thing, I think they realized that their relationship is never going to be a great
one, just because of the nature of the industry.
D Bagby: It can’t.
J Bagby: It just can't. There's too many variables and there's too much money and there's too much time
involved for--I've never met anybody who was like, “Yeah, I loved my GC. My project went amazing.”
They're full of shit.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
12
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
D Bagby: It’s like a disposable relationship in a weird way.
J Bagby: Yeah, you just-D Bagby: You need them, they you need but then it's over and we're done. We don't want to see you
again kind of thing. It's terrible, but that's just kind of the nature of it.
Downie (00:42:53): Now did your general have any background in building a brewery?
J Bagby (00:42:55): (speaking at the same time) No, in restaurants.
D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) In restaurants.
J Bagby: Yeah, restaurants, and commercial or retail. But mostly restaurants and bars is what we were
attracted to him for.
D Bagby: Small company also-J Bagby: Smaller company. Had the reputation of being able to do something like this
D Bagby: Had worked with the architect—
J Bagby: Yeah, he had worked with our architect on a project before and yeah, I mean the architect firm
went down in flames pretty quick. (D Bagby laughs) I realized, oddly enough, we got an apology email
from him last week, which was-D Bagby: A little late.
J Bagby: Frustrating two years later. But, yeah, they just weren't equipped and we didn't know that they
weren't equipped.
D Bagby: We didn't know enough to know that.
J Bagby: Yeah. And then, you know, I spent countless hours going to the counters at the city to talk to
the engineers, to talk to the-D Bagby: The building inspectors.
J Bagby: The building inspectors and just going back and forth. “No, we need this. Okay.” So, because I'm
trying to facilitate--we're trying to facilitate this project and keep it moving. (00:43:57) And there's
obviously no one in the world has any incentive, but, or the most incentive than us to get it done. And
so, we're just, like she said, we just took it on. We project managed, we--every day, we'd come here and
walk through and see what was done wrong or what hadn't been done or why isn't, so-and-so working
today, you know? And part of that was on the GC, part of that was on their architect, and they both fell
down. The architect first and then the GC. We went through five superintendents here on our project to
the general contractor.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
13
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
Downie: Oh dear.
J Bagby (44:30): And by the end I was like, “Him or no one else.” And so, we got this last guy just to get
through and get our building final then and everything. But you name a discipline, you name a part or a
section or a wall. I spent time on it. She spent time on it. It's--so now, you know, we're like, we're telling
them, we're like, “You guys get to go, you guys get to pack up your shit and leave.” And we get to turn
around and actually do what we wanted to do six months ago, or, you know, a year ago.
D Bagby: When we started construction, yeah.
J Bagby: Yeah.
D Bagby: (00:45:07) When we thought we’d be done, especially.
J Bagby: We, you know, we need to spend time on--I mean, we're still taking on investors, but we have
to start the project. We're still searching out for investors. We're still trying to find our key executive
management team and how the hell we're going to run this place. I'm still trying to figure out how to get
the rest of the brewery finished off and actually making beer because we didn't want to open without
our own beer. And it was just, you know, just kept on, I didn't, I think I lost forty pounds and that last
like six months of the other projects before we opened, just because I could never eat, I could never
sleep. And I was constantly doing something on a project that sent my stress levels through the roof. So,
it was very-D Bagby: And then you get to operate your business.
J Bagby: Yeah, and then you open and you know, there's five hundred people here on a Saturday and
they all want food and beer.
Downie: Excellent.
D Bagby (00:45:53): Which is great, yeah. I mean, there is that question. I mean, you just, you don't
know until it happens when you open the door for the first time. Is anybody going to be here? And I
know that sounds ridiculous when you think of the size of this and even just people curious. Obviously,
there will be people that are curious that are cruising by, but you really don't know. I mean, it is, you
don't--you don't really let yourself think that because you can't. You just have to continue to stay true to
your goal and your vision. And once you start, you can't stop. I mean, it's go time. And so, when you do
finally open the doors, it's amazing. It is. It's kind of amazing that people are here. And I remember the
first, like week we were open, it felt really strange that there were people here I didn’t know. (00:46:37)
I was like, “Who are these people? Oh, shoot. They're supposed to be here. That's right.” (Downie
laughs) It was just very weird. And we had spent so much time here over the, you know, proceeding two
years that it was--it was home. We were here three hours to one, the number of hours, or four hours to
one, the number of hours we would spend at home for sure. And so, this was home. And so, we knew
every contract, we knew every subcontractor. We knew everybody. And they knew us. And so, when it
was time to let strangers in, (laughs) it was weird. But, you know, you get over that pretty quickly.
J Bagby: Yeah.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
14
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
D Bagby: Because they are spending money.
Downie (00:47:14): Of course, talking about the ‘curious’ issue, are you going to come back?
D Bagby: Yeah, of course.
Downie: Because just a one-time visit isn't going to keep you going.
D Bagby (00:47:21): That’s right. Yeah, that's right. And that's still something that's, you know, on the
operational side that we are always striving for. We want to be that place that people are like, “I can't
wait to go back there.” We're still young though. And I that's the counterpoint to that is first of all, never
stop trying. I mean, there's always something we can do better, always something we can refine. Always
a better way or a more efficient way or a way that's going to make our guests happier. So, we are always
pushing. We never, ever stopped. And I don't think we ever will. That's just our personalities. And
luckily, it's the same--those personality traits are reflected our management team. So, they all feel the
same way too. There's absolutely nobody on that team that is not completely there with us. Ready to
just keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And our staff, it goes all the way to them. (00:48:09): The
people that are attracted to a place like this to work here. They, you know, they like that it's family. They
liked that it's unique and different. They like that we're always pushing the envelope, trying to come up
with cool new things or new ways or whatever the case. And so, it starts to draw in people who are
naturally attracted to that. And so, they have a really kind of an inherent flexibility that is critical, but we
couldn't have scripted that. I didn't really realize that, but it is true. We are--we ask a lot of them. We
ask them to be very nimble and to do something very different one day than they did the day before,
because we're trying to—
J Bagby: Sorry, I’ve got to go downstairs and talk to them for a minute.
D Bagby: Okay.
Downie: Okay.
J Bagby: Okay, I'll be right back. I got to set up a potential account with some tasting.
D Bagby: Doing some tasting. Do you want to bring them upstairs for a taste?
J Bagby: You did ask a question and that was what attracted us to this? Just going to finalize that and say
the space. (Downie and D Bagby laugh)
D Bagby (00:49:09): Yeah, the space for sure was the deciding factor. But when he called me from here
and I've told this story before, and he said--I asked, you know, the data, like, how big is it? What's going
on? And when he started to rattle off the statistics, I'm like, in my mind, “There's no way this is going to
happen. (Downie laughs) There's no way.” And then every little hurdle you cross over, you knock that
domino down and then pretty soon you're signing your lease. And it still doesn't really feel real until
then. And then even then it doesn't feel real until—
Downie (00:49:38): But you've been disappointed once already so--
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
15
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
D Bagby: Yeah.
Downie: So it was kind of like you don't exactly want to get too invested—
D Bagby (00:49:44): Once you sign the lease though, and you are a personal guarantee on that. It's
yours. And so, then it's like, what do you do with that? Because there is a certain amount of money that
if you just--even if you decide to never do anything with it, you're paying on your own personal account
for that. So, and we knew that it was a big risk of the landlords, the owners. We knew that we wanted to
not disappoint them too, as another layer in all of this. But I really didn't believe it was going to happen
until it started happening. (laughs) And then the train was going and there was no stopping it, which is
good.
Downie (00:50:16): Yeah. So, what about your background, Dande? As far, as you know, you said you
worked in a Fortune 500 company. Well, what's your path that got you here? And to actually be
supportive of something that you could have very easily said, “No, I don't want to do this.”
D Bagby (00:50:31): Yeah. I still do say that sometimes. No, I'm just kidding. No, my background is really
weird. But somehow it all sort of feeds into to all the things that we do here. So, I worked in restaurants
in high school and a little bit in college. I ended up working for a very small sort of family-run or just a
couple of friends started the small kind of Mexican food chain. It was a kind of a spinoff from the Rubio’s
chain. So, they had helped Ralph Rubio start Rubio's and they started their own thing. And so, I, you
know, started working there my first restaurant job and worked my way up into management. And I'm
still friends with the owners of that. They've since sold it all off, but it was really exciting to be a part of a
small, very small and growing company. (00:51:18) When I first was hired by them, they had one
location. And then ultimately, I think they had seven or eight. Not when I worked there, but at the end
of the sort of end of the line for them. And what happened though, was that they set the bar really high.
I mean, they treated this little single location, you know, eight hundred square foot taco shop. They
treated it as though it was a corporate--very, very organized, very dialed in, very high-quality, high
standards when it came to customer service and food service and all of that. Even though it was a walkup counter. So that was my only exposure to restaurants was that. And so, it really, it changed how I saw
things, whether it was from a business perspective or from a restaurant perspective. And that was sort
of, that became my benchmark, for how to be. How to be a manager, how to be managed, how to treat
employees, all of that stuff began then. (00:52:17): And it was my first real job was there. And I worked
there for many years while I was--and then I went to school--my degree is in biology from Cal State San
Marcos (California State University San Marcos).
Downie: My goodness. (laughs)
D Bagby: Yeah. So, I was a molecular cell biology major. But, before that, I wanted to be a zoologist. So, I
started at Palomar and my very first class, my very first semester of college at Palomar, was as zoology
class. And it was just life science, check the box, get that out of the way. And I fell in love with it and it
was everything. I loved it. It was--my instructor was amazing. I don't think she's alive anymore. Dr.
Jessup was her name. And she was a genius and I just wanted to absorb a hundred percent of everything
she could teach me, I wanted to learn it. (00:53:07) And so that kind of led me-- I worked for the
Zoological Society of San Diego for about seven years. So, I left restaurants and did that and finished my
degree at Cal State and left. And I taught biology and environmental science at the high school level. I
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
16
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
taught labs--biology labs--at the junior college level for a few years. And then ultimately worked for
SDG&E (San Diego Gas & Electric Company) in their Environmental Science Department. And, that's
about when I met Jeff. So, I had done all of this sort of teaching and I hadn't worked in a restaurant in a
long time. And when he and I first met, he had, like he said, he had beer on tap, both at Oggi’s in Vista
where he had been the head brewer and at Pizza Port Carlsbad. And I had always liked beer, but I knew
absolutely nothing about it. It was completely foreign to me. I didn't even--it didn't really occur to me
that it was something that you could learn about. It just sort of was a thing that existed. And of course
that's--couldn't be more wrong (Downie laughs) even then in 2005, even then. And so he's like, “Well
come and let's taste some beer at in Vista.” So, we went out there and he just did the tasting, not a
flight. I mean he pulled--we had tasters of every beer that was on tap. There must've been a dozen
beers or more. And he kind of just lined them up how you would want somebody to kind of learn about
beer. And he just was like, “Okay, what does it look like? What does it smell like? What does it taste
like? Where do you think that's coming from? What is that? Did you do--?” you know? I remember
specifically the hefeweizen he's like, “Do you think we added anything to make that taste like that?” And
I was like, “Well, yeah, you probably added some fruit or you added some spice.” And absolutely not.
Just from the yeast, and that tied into my biology background.
Downie (54:58): Right.
D Bagby: And understanding sort of a little bit about, you know, yeast chemistry, yeast metabolism. And
then it started to click. I was like, “Okay, this is cool.” And then of course that led into ales and lagers
and how they're, you know, metabolized differently. And all of the life cycle and all of that stuff. And so
that really kind of itched, or what do you say, like “Scratch that itch” or whatever that science-y stuff. I
really, really appreciated on the cellular level, which I had kind of departed from working in
environmental science. (00:55:32) So, that was a really huge eye-opener and that was kind of it for me.
So, we tasted through all the beers and that created this sort of framework for me that I still rely on
today. That's just sort of styles and, you know, parts of the world. And, you know, this is like this. And
that's like, you know, whether it's hops in English IPA versus an American IPA and why and how, and,
even just the physical I'm like, “I don't know what hop is. I have no idea.” So, he went and he grabbed a
handful of hops and was like, “This is what they are. This is what they smell like. This is what they look
like. This is where they're grown.” Of course, that led into hop harvest. And that led into fresh hop beer.
And I remember specifically that season going down to-- because he still was bartending. (00:56:17) So,
he had, he left Pizza Port or--excuse me, he left Oggi’s and Vista and he was head brewing in Carlsbad
and he was still bartending at Solana Beach. And I lived in Cardiff at the time. And so, I would go visit
him on his bartend. I think he would work Wednesday nights and same thing. He'd be like, “Well, taste
this, have a taste of this.” And I specifically remember fresh hop beers that season because it was unlike
anything I'd ever had before. They were--it was just amazing to me. It was this bouquet of--it really
tasted like drinking flowers. And that was really exciting. So, every new experience was just something
to be learned. Unlike Jeff, I loved school, I loved being a student. I loved studying and I still do. I still love
to learn. So does he, but even in that, even in an academic setting, I loved at all. (00:57:05) And so it
created this never-ending quest for information and knowledge and then that tied into experience. And
so, when we would travel to whether it was in California or abroad or wherever, it creates this sort of, I
don't know, structure, if you will. This kind of map or pathway for learning that, you know, whether it's
about people or history or the ingredients and where they came from. And so that became, it became a
passion of mine as well. And this was pretty close to right away. So, you know, within the first year or so
of us dating, you know, we were going to events, we were traveling for beer. We were, you know, it just
became part of our shared thing. But also, I loved learning from him too. And, yeah, and he's right.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
17
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
(00:57:57) We started talking about opening a place, or that he wanted to open a place, pretty quickly. I
mean, it was certainly not something that was going to be happening anytime soon, but it was again
part of the discussion. And so, when you're traveling somewhere, you're going--his family, his father's
side is from Northern Arizona, Prescott. Little town called Prescott. So, you know, we were traveling out
there once or twice a year to visit his grandfather and kind of hang out and there's Prescott Brewing
Company. So, we'd go there and just kind of talk about whether it was the beers or the styles or the hop
choices or whatever to--do you think how’s the service? Is that are--what would we do differently?
What about the glassware? Does this seem right? And--or how's the check presented? I mean,
everything, it just became part of the fabric of what we talked about. And, yeah, that lasted and it's still
true. It's still true today. And we go places and we look at how just the, how the operational side, how
people are solving their own problems and you know, are those things we can borrow or are they things
that we would never do because they don't fit with who we are. So that's how, that's the weird biologybiologist into brewery owner.
Downie (00:59:15): Everybody comes from somewhere.
D Bagby: That’s right.
Downie: Actually, you know, like you say, the whole hops chemistry. You know, Jackie Trischman in
Chemistry at Cal State (University San Marcos) is working with Stone investigating hops chemistry.
D Bagby: That’s awesome.
Downie: So, you know, Bonnie Bade (Cal State University San Marcos) in Anthropology is medicinal
plants, Native American medicinal plants, and looking at how those can be incorporated into beers and
things, so…
D Bagby: Absolutely.
Downie: So, it's--you can pull a whole lot of different disciplines and interests and experiences into-D Bagby: Absolutely.
Downie: The whole world of beer.
D Bagby (00:59:45): Absolutely. And that, and the whole historical piece too, is something that both Jeff
and I are really passionate about. And that's a big reason why we have such diversity in terms of the
beer styles that we brew here. He brews here because of that. They, you know, a Belgian blonde brings
us--brings us back to Brussels. It brings us back to visiting with our friend Yvan (De Baets) from
(Brasserie) de la Senne, you know? That to us is a big reason why we wanted to do this also is to bring
pieces of these experiences that we've had all over the world right here. And if somebody is able, isn't
able, or doesn't know they want yet to go to Belgium or they don't know they want to go to Germany or
maybe they never will, you know? If we can bring a little piece of that to them, that's whether it's the
beer, the glassware, the, you know, a little bit of history lesson through our employees. That's all--that's
a big, that's a huge piece of this for us. So having a big staff is a challenge. Per slight understatement.
Downie: How many employees do you have?
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
18
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
D Bagby: We have about sixty employees now. Yeah. Which is the smallest staff we've ever had. We-when we first opened and you always open with more than you need, but we had over a hundred
employees at one point.
Downie: Wow.
D Bagby: Which is a big, huge thing. Lots of people.
J Bagby (01:01:06): Through all of that, through all of the construction, through all of the opening and
employees (unintelligible), I like to tell people that absolutely nothing surprises me anymore.
D Bagby: No
J Bagby: Nothing.
D Bagby: No, no.
J Bagby: I've heard it all, seen it all at all. Been through it all. Yeah.
Downie (01:01:22): And you're still standing.
D Bagby: Yeah. We are. Yep.
Downie: So, you've already said that you really don't look to expand beyond this site and it seems like
it's large and you have plenty of elbow room but—
J Bagby (01:01:39): We could even expand onsite because we have a building that we haven't really even
touched—(speaking at the same time)
D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Touched. Yeah.
Downie: You’re kidding.
D Bagby: Yeah.
Downie (01:01:44): So you have expansion elbow room.
J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes.
D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes.
Downie: But since you're not canning beers now, what are your plans for the future in, you know,
distribution or canning or--?
J Bagby (01:01:56): So, we've gone back and forth. What--we looked pretty seriously at purchasing a
canning line. Mike Hess (Mike Hess Brewing) was selling theirs. So, I went down and looked at it, kind of
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
19
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
ran some numbers and looked at it. But we wouldn't have been a good idea for cashflow for one thing.
And the other was, we didn't have that output really. So, we'd have this really-D Bagby: Beautiful.
J Bagby: Nice canning line and it would be lovely to put a ton of beer in cans, but no output for it.
Downie: Okay.
J Bagby: (1:02:24) Which, you know, cart before the horse or not, or whatever, it's sometimes you just
have to jump in. And so, we decided not to at that point, but it is something that's on the mind,
especially with a lot of our beers that tend to be growing in popularity and that we think would be really
good in a package or in the proper package. So, that's still a possibility. But we haven't decided what
step we're going to take first in doing that. So, there is a possibly of that in the next year or two, three.
Other than that, I really want to continue pushing our draft distribution because it's something that we
can do in the framework that we have. We have the beer, we have cooperage, we can get more
cooperage very easily. And the capital outlay isn’t as much, and the space requirement is not as much or
as intense as packaging. What else, what else?
D Bagby (01:03:23): We one hundred percent self-distribute in California. So, we don't have a distributor
anywhere.
J Bagby: Out of state we have (unintelligible).
D Bagby: Out of state, yeah, we (unintelligible).
J Bagby: We’re not spending a lot out beer of out of state, yeah. (Aside to D Bagby, Forgot to tell you I
talked to Matt Bonney yesterday about Washington.)
D Bagby: Oh, okay, cool.
J Bagby: So, we'll do some stuff up there, but anyway. (laughs)
D Bagby (01:03:40): There you go. Heard it here first before I even heard it. (laughs) No, just kidding.
J Bagby (01:03:44): And he called me during the party.
D Bagby (01:03:45): Yeah. So self-distribution. We want to do that as long as we can. As a young
business, (unintelligible), the margins on draft wholesale beer are already pretty, pretty low. So, you
want to try to maximize as much revenue as you can at this stage of a business. There's also a lot of
interesting things happening. I try to kind of dial into this a little bit as much as I can. There's a lot going
on with this whole notion of hyper-local and, you know, being the kind of brewery that, and there are
lots of them, that have these humongous, very ambitious goals to be in every state or to be in twenty
states or to be all over the place right now. And I certainly don't disparage that, that's part of their
business model and that's what they think is awesome. (01:04:34): Go for it. But it's really feeling a lot
like people are more, appreciating more and more, what's right near them. And you see certain
breweries that are drawing back from that, that broad scale distribution more and more--
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
20
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
J Bagby: Or just staying where they are.
D Bagby: (1:04:55) Or are just staying where they are, yeah. They say steady is the new growth. So, I
think we're just, we're kind of a cautious company. We don't take a lot of big risks. Maybe because we
have such a gigantic property here and so much going on that we don't have to. I mean, we don't even
have the energy really to make big plans. But, no, we do talk a about what's next and where, where are
we going to grow. And I do think even locally--we, you know, Jeff said, when he tries to sell someone
beer, we actually haven’t actively sold any beer. Every drop of beer that hasn't been sold over our bar
here at the pub has been somebody coming and saying, “Hey, I want to have your beer on at my place.”
So, they reach out to us either, you know, usually via email.
J Bagby (01:05:41): That’s who I just met downstairs. And he is a friend, but they came to us to taste.
More traditional sort of setup like, “Hey, can you send your rep by and bring some of your beers? I'd like
to taste them on tap.”
D Bagby: Yeah, we do not have a rep. (laughs)
J Bagby: I'm the rep.
D Bagby (01:05:56): We don’t have one of those. Yeah. (J Bagby laughs) Part of it is too--and so that’s,
it’s kind of nice that that’s, because then we know the accounts that have come to us really already get
it. They already understand what we do and appreciate that enough to reach out, but we do not, we
understand that is not sustainable. And the growth that we really do want to realize on the wholesale
side is only achievable with some outreach. And that’s something that is--we know, we both
acknowledge that that’s really important. But we also, again talk about kind of risk aversion. We were—
it's still too close to us. We don’t want to just hire a sales rep and tell them to go out in the world and
sell the beer. It’s really hard to let go of it and to, you know, just be those, just say, “Oh yeah, go for it.
Volume volume. Get it.” (01:06:42) Because it still really matters to us who’s pouring it. How they’re
pouring it. Are they taking care of the kegs? Is the glassware appropriate? Is it clean? Are the lines
clean? All we need is somebody to have a beer like this Kölsch that I'm drinking that is so delicate. And
such a light beer that, you know, if it’s not cared for it is going to be flawed. And you know, most people
don't drink a beer and think that they don’t like and think that it isn’t the brewer (laughs) or the
brewery. Most people do not say, “Oh, those lines must be dirty. That's why this does not taste right.”
So, it’s just cautious and definitely overly cautious. I’ll say we are very careful. And, you know, that’s, at
some point we're going to have to start peeling our fingers off those kegs a little more forcefully and get
out there in the world and really see. We hear from time to time that people believe that we just don't
have any beer to sell. Because we aren’t actively selling it, which isn’t true. We make a lot of beer and
we sell a lot of beer over our own bars, but we definitely have some volume that could go out much
more than it is. So, we’re working on it. Got our hands pretty full. (laughs)
Downie (01:07:57): Now, this is something, you know, because you are both cautious people, but what if
something happened and your landlord decided to sell the property?
J Bagby (01:08:08): So, there's provisions in our lease that say that I can’t change our lease.
Downie: Okay.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
21
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
Downie: It was very protective.
D Bagby: Yeah.
J Bagby: (1:08:15) It was very protected line by line that thing to make sure things like that like they
couldn’t say, “Oh, we are going to sell a parking lot to a developer for apartments.” They can’t do that,
you know? So, if they sell it our lease stands.
D Bagby: And we can buy it too, we have to be considered.
J Bagby: We don’t have first right of refusal.
D Bagby: Something else called that.
J Bagby: (1:08:38) Their landlord or their rep did not want to give that--our landlords have kids. I would
not see them giving up this property to somebody unless we just came by and plopped the amount of
money on them, which can happen. And, you know, I know that the people that own these shops kind of
behind the alley-D Bagby: West of us.
J Bagby: The other side, are trying to develop it and turn it into apartments.
J Bagby (01:09:07): I'm like, that is a six-year project. If Coastal Commission-D Bagby: It’s the Coastal Commission.
Downie: Yeah, it’s a coastal commission. Will even allow it.
D Bagby: Yeah, if the city-J Bagby: (1:09:17) We are so lucky to avoid those things, you know? We don’t have a conditional use. It
was in the beginning we had some neighbors that were complaining. And I think it was just because
people were parking on the street. It’s public parking on the street. And they were just getting mad
because they used to park in front of their house at a certain time of night. And it wouldn’t be a
problem. You know, because we’re—anyway. Somebody came and complained and said, “Oh, well, I'm
going to go to the city. And you know, I’ve already started signatures to get your conditional use
removed and dah-dah-dah.” And I was like, “Well, that’s cool, but we don’t have a conditional use.” And
(the city has nothing to do over what we do here as a business. Because we’re permitted as a right. So,
(whispers) sorry about that. (laughs)
D Bagby (01:09:58): Yeah, it was, we haven’t really, honestly, for being as close as we are to residential,
we have had virtually no issues other than the first probably month we were open where people were
kind of caught off guard maybe by the volume. But that’s, I mean, at least as far as I'm aware, we
haven’t had any issues. We haven’t had any issues.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
22
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
J Bagby (01:10:16): I had a couple of things. There was that one guy that, you know, I think he just
wanted to come in and kind of rant. And I was nice to him. I just let him go. And when I said, you know,
“I want to work with you. I want to work with the community, but you got to realize that, you know, the
streets are public parking and unless you get that changed, which you're perfectly willing to try to try to
do, but I don't believe the city is going to let you just for your spot in front of your house. And you know,
I want to help you. We have the required parking that we're supposed to have for the use that we have
here per our agreements with the city. And, you know, really sorry if there's any incidents or things that,
you know, please feel free to call us.” Like just, you know, kill them with kindness kind of thing. And you
know, reminded him that he really could not do anything about it.
D Bagby (01:11:05): Yeah, you live on a commercial zone, basically the boundary of a residential and
commercial coming together. And that can be a challenge, especially because there wasn't anything
here, no operating business for years. And even when the dealership was still going, I mean, they
wouldn't--there wasn't so much parking demand. Yeah. That would have ever affected them. So, I get it.
I would be upset too, probably, but—
Downie (01:11:26): But yeah. And change is always going to have somebody not happy.
D Bagby (01:11:30): Absolutely. That's true. Yeah.
Sweat (01:11:33): I actually have to go. I'm overseeing an event in Encinitas here in a second, so I have
to run.
D Bagby: I hope you don’t run into any traffic.
Sweat: We’ll see what happens. (laughs)
Downie: It should be pretty good by now.
Sweat: I'll follow up with you tomorrow just to make sure you have everything you need and just see
what any next steps are. But, let me know in the meantime if you need anything.
Downie: Thank you, Holly.
D Bagby: Thanks Holly.
Downie: I wish you a safe and easy drive.
Sweat: Thank you, I know.
D Bagby: (01:12:00): I hope so too. Holly, we'll look at those pictures today, too. I know you guys are
asking and we just have had a crazy few days.
Sweat: Yeah, we know with your party.
D Bagby: Yeah. (laughs)
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
23
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
Sweat: It looked like a lot of fun.
D Bagby: It was a lot of fun.
Sweat: And honestly, if you are only able to decide on like, a few, I could do the ones of Jeff just to get
them to see.
D Bagby: Yes, I'll do that tonight before I leave. For sure. And how many do we need to give her? Total?
Or selection?
Sweat: It’s in the email, like, how many you guys agreed to pay for.
D Bagby: I can’t remember.
Sweat: It might be one or two or Jeff.
D Bagby: Okay.
Sweat: That we agreed upon.
D Bagby: Okay.
Sweat: But yeah.
D Bagby: Thank you.
Sweat: It’s nice to see you both.
D Bagby: You too. Drive safe.
Downie (01:12:37): So, if you can still give me a little more time. I know I had just an hour, so I don’t
(unintelligible)--.
J Bagby (01:12:41): Sure. I might check in on that account in a minute, but yeah, if you have some more
questions, for sure.
Downie (01:12:50): You both sound like you're very, very invested in education, you know, which is a
wonderful thing. What would you say, I mean, do you support any charities or causes through the
brewery that you feel like you want to talk about? Or, are there plans to expand your reach into, you
know, goodwill gestures besides listening to irate neighbors? (all laugh)
J Bagby (01:13:15): It's hard, you know? We get approached almost every day about some sort of
donation for something. We have an outlet on our website where you can fill out a form and apply. And
while we like supporting charities and the community, it's difficult because there are so many of them.
And we like to look at the ones that either we've supported either personally in the past, or that we
have a connection to through a family member or a very good friend. Where we can say, “Okay, you
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
24
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
know, this is important to us because of this.” You know, while we like also doing this, we're also
running a business. So, at some point you can't--you have to close the doors a little bit on it and say,
“Look, we want to help you out. But you know, you're asking—" we could do it. The easiest thing for us
to do is donate beer. But the hardest thing for us to donate is beer because of the licensing required for
the nonprofit to actually get it. And they don't understand that.
Downie: I’ve run into that. (laughs)
J Bagby: And we always have to be the one that's like, well, “We'd love to help you out, but there's this,
this, this, and this.”
Downie (01:14:22): Yeah, and more education. And what Stone did—because I approached Stone about
some beer to maybe put into a scholarship raffle that we do through the Society of California Archivists I
belong to. And it was, “Well, what did the ABC (California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control
say?” And then I ran into the ABC and I just went, for the permits we'd have to get, it's just, you know, it
would eat up what little money we would make. So, and I understand that completely because
(unintelligible).
D Bagby: Yeah, we’ve seen it. But, with that said, we are involved.
J Bagby (01:14:51): Yeah, I mean, we just had two weeks ago or, not this past week and the weekend
before, we had a gigantic breast cancer benefit festival on our parking lot that a lot of our staff members
donate their time to. We donate beer to, we donate food to—yeah, we donate space. And basically, we
host the charity. And that was something that I started with the woman who founded the festival back
at Pizza Port.
Downie: Is that Brewbies?
J Bagby: Yeah.
Downie: Yeah.
J Bagby: So that's the biggest one that we have. And then this one that we just had almost raised almost
fifty thousand dollars for charity.
Downie: Wow. Wonderful.
J Bagby: And so, you know, knowing that and having been involved with this one for nine of them now,
and being in the beer industry in general, I'm always getting asked, I'm very diligent about when we get
a request for a festival because sometimes, first and foremost, sometimes the festival isn't necessarily
great for the charity. (01:15:46) There'll be a promotional company--excuse me, that we'll get out there,
go up to a charity and say, “Hey, we can make you five thousand dollars if you pull the license for this,”
you know? But they don't realize the potential risks involved or the insurance liability that they have to
take on, different things like that. And the production company ends up taking the majority of the
money because the proceeds. Now it's illegal because one hundred percent of it with that one day ABC
license is supposed to go to the charity.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
25
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
Downie: Right.
J Bagby: So, if someone squats, the ABC can say, “Hey, we need to see your books.” And then not only
does the charity get in trouble, which they may not even be aware of.
Downie: Right.
J Bagby: But that promotional company, and even the breweries could get in trouble because they
donated to it. Another thing is on our side, not only are we just donating beer but probably donating
two people's full day’s worth of time to get the beer ready to go to the event, to get all the equipment
together, to drive to wherever it might be to set up, to pour, take it all down and bring it all back home,
clean it all. (01:16:43): And so, people don't realize what really goes into it on our side when we're
donating. We're not just donating a beer, we’re donating quite a bit more so we're pretty diligent about
those. But that's really the easiest way for us to support a charity or a community event, unfortunately.
Downie (01:17:03): But those are facts that, you know, people need to be aware of. And you both talked
about how much learning you've had to do along this path.
D Bagby (01:17:13): We’ve done some kind of other fundraisers, though.
J Bagby: Yeah, we've done some onsite things.
D Bagby: There have been a couple of military things that we've supported and—
J Bagby (01:17:25): And the dogs, yeah.
D Baby (01:17:27): So there's a few things that we really, really kind of key into that mean a lot to us. But
yeah, I think as a—
J Bagby: Firefighter-D Bagby: Pint Project.
J Bagby: Yeah. (01:17:38) A couple of onsite things that were pretty successful and, you know, we're
just--you get back to this, like you can't do them all, you know? And as not nice as it sounds, it does need
to benefit us in some way as well. Because we are offering up a lot when we do these things and why we
want to help the community, we want to help these people that need help in some way, we just have to
be careful.
D Bagby: Yeah. Exactly.
Downie (01:18:07): Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, not every charity is a 501(c ) or is required and
you get into all kinds of thin ice. So, very understandable. But, no.
D Bagby (01:18:19): Now that's one of the things that I think is a benefit to us as Jeff has made it his
mission and his absolute business to know as much as he can about ABC licensing. Just any sticky
situations that are pitfalls. The San Diego Brewers Guild (a nonprofit organization that promotes San
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
26
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
Diego breweries) just hosted like a ABC meeting at a local brewery a couple of weeks ago. And I feel like
we knew a lot of that stuff that was mentioned, but it's still great to go and be a part of that.
J Bagby: It’s like a refresher course.
D Bagby: It’s a refresher. But you can just see in the room, people—
J Bagby And you get questions and hands go up. And you’re thinking “You can’t do that.”
D Bagby (01:18:58): Yeah. yeah. So, it was really interesting to see people's reaction to these rules that
many of not all--I've been really long standing for a long time, but if you don't know, you don't know.
And I think there's a lot of ask for forgiveness later, which may have worked in the past, but as the ABC
gets more versed, they get--there are certain things that they were getting very particular about as they
should.
Downie (01:19:31): Well, once they see it as a continual problem, that it keeps happening, they're going
to start coming down and—
D Bagby (01:19:37): Yeah, and it's, you know, it is--I believe that it is your job as if you're going to have a
license that you should know how it works and what--it's a responsibility. And it's hard for us to
sometimes see other breweries who don't know. And that's fair if you don't know initially, but that
blatantly break these laws all the time. And you don't want to see them get in trouble, but you also
don't want to set up. It sets expectations on the customer side it sets expectations on other breweries’
sides were like, well, “They did it, why can't I?” And so of course for people like us who, like I said, risk
averse, we want to make sure that we're--I mean, our biggest asset, those are the alcohol license. That's
why we're here. So, if something happens to that, it gets jeopardized that's--that is a bad thing. (laughs)
Very bad. So, yeah, it's, it's been talking about education. That's something that I've learned a lot from
Jeff. And we've offered up if anybody has questions certainly here locally, you know, we're always
available. People want to bounce an idea or, you know, find out more, we're happy to help.
Downie (01:20:46): So, you're active in San Diego Brewers Guild. Because I saw you at Guild Fest (SD
Brewers Guild Fest) and you just mentioned a recent meeting. Are there any other organizations you're
active in or are members of--?
J Bagby (01:20:58): We’re members of the Brewers Association, the National, um—
D Bagby: CCBA.
J Bagby: And the California Craft Brewers Association. Also, the MBA, the Masters Brewers Association
of America.
D Bagby: I'm actually a board member on the—
J Bagby: San Diego.
D Bagby: Brewer’s Guild. But yeah, there's a lot of those little things like that.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
27
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
J Bagby (01:21:19): I think those are the main ones, but those are all, I mean, there's some international
stuff, but yeah.
Downie (01:21:26): Yeah. What are you going to get involved in? I mean, again, it's kind of like the
finding the charities that are actually going to be beneficial. Is that going to benefit you?
J Bagby (01:21:36): (unintelligible) international. Well, yeah. I was going to say the only benefit for us
because, you know, they have incredible conferences and technical courses. (Downie laughs) That would
probably be the only reason for us to really be a part of those. And there's some competitions, there's
some, some bigger European competitions that are gaining a lot of speed and a lot more Americans are
actually sending beer over and winning medals. So, it's something to watch. But yeah, it's not like, you
know, where we're going to Brau and Nuremberg every year or something like that.
Downie (01:22:08): Well, that does bring up. When did you start putting your beers into competition?
D Bagby: Good question.
J Bagby (01:22:14): That was back when I was at Pizza Port at Solana Beach. We entered beers at Stone,
but they weren't really--I didn't have anything to do with the recipes of those beers.
Downie: Okay. You were an assistant.
J Bagby: I was just standing there, but when I got to Solana Beach and was working with Tomme, some
of those were my ideas and my things where I brewed them, or we brewed them together. It's a bit
more intimate and I was a little bit more involved. So, I would say there, really. And that's where, you
know, won, our first, or my first time across the stage. (laughs)
Downie (01:22:50): Have you kept a list of all the awards you've won (unintelligible)?
J Bagby (01:22:55): She did quite a bit of work on that before our business case. Before we opened. But I
think she ended up just tallying GABF awards and World Beer Cup awards. Because there's certainly
other things, too. There's like Alpha King. I’ve won that three times. That's the Hoppy Beer Competition
that they hold during the GABF, that’s not associated with the GABF. Some awards at San Diego
International Beer Festival, what do you call it? Beer of the Year, three times there. And some various
other medals in, you know, have we ever entered LA county? A couple of times. So, you know, some
things here and there. IPA festivas up and over North and Hayward. Years ago, I won medal at the Alaska
Beer and Barleywine Festival.
Downie (01:23:45): Oh, Alaska. Wow. You've really reached out here.
J Bagby (01:23:48): It's a very long running, very famous festival.
Downie (01:23:52): I’ve heard of it, yeah. But it just seems very interesting to me that if somebody were
keeping a list of what beers they had won awards for, I think that would tell a story about some of the
changes in styles and some of the expansion of styles of beers.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
28
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
J Bagby (01:24:07): Yeah, yeah. Maybe, I don't know. I was talking to somebody. I was in Miami at a
festival this past weekend. A friend of mine, his anniversary for his brewery. And he throws a festival
that coincides with it. It's invitational. Anyway, he invited me and I was like, “Yeah, I've never been to
Miami. I'll go.” So anyway, I was talking to another brewer friend who was there and he was like, “Oh,
well, you know, you won lots of IPA (India Pale Ale) medals,” and you and I was like, “Boy, yeah, I won
some of those,” but also won in Belgians and a lot of different stout medals. And, I even have a couple of
German pilsner medals. Some other like, you know, Scotch Ales, like Brown Ales. It's kind of a wide
gamut. So, I don't know if my medal history would necessarily tell much of a story in that way. Maybe.
Downie (01:25:02): Yeah. Well, I think the more pieces of evidence there are, the more our story can be
put together. But have you ever done judging?
J Bagby (01:25:10): Oh yeah. Yeah. I've been a judge at the GABF (Great American Beer Festival) and the
World Beer Cup for thirteen years. Thirteen, fourteen years now. I don't remember my first judge GABF.
It was like 2003, I think. So, yeah. I've been doing that for a long time and I'll be doing that this year in
National.
Downie (01:25:33): Yeah. I've heard comments that GABF has gotten so big and so many categories that
has just really become kind of overwhelming. How do you feel about that?
J Bagby (01:25:43): I wished that they would, on the organization side, that they would grow the
competition to represent the growth in the beer industry. I get what they're trying to do and what then
they have limitations, but sometimes I think they're being a little harsh on the restrictions on their side.
You know, there's almost eight thousand beers in there, in the GABF last year, and I'm sure the World
Beer Cup will be around that. And I think there's seventy-nine categories. They haven't expanded the
categories too much in the last five years. I think maybe ten years ago there might've been sixtysomething categories. So, it hasn't expanded a whole lot, but what has is the entries, right? So, brewers
used to be able to enter around eight beers per brewery, or brewhouse, location into the competition.
They've changed that and they have several different categories in ways, you know, like a Pizza Port that
has five locations. (01:26:44) You know, what if all five locations enter beers? Well, they have
stipulations on how many beers a corporation, or a set of breweries, that are under one ownership can
enter. So, every year that we've been a brewery, we've entered the maximum number of beers that we
can enter into the GABF. And that makes it difficult because you only have four shots, right? Like we're
sending four beers to the World Beer Cup. So, it's a more difficult. But so does everybody else. And so,
everyone else has to make the decisions and the kind of cuts in their mind of which beers they want to
enter, which ones that they're going to pass on for this year or this competition or whatever it is. So, it's
still very fair. I think it's still judged very fairly. Probably the most fair competition there is in beer
because of the qualities, the qualifications of the judges, and their palates and their history and their
tenure as judges judging beer. It's all judged blind. It’s done very, very well. (01:27:54) The problems I
see with it are the categories that are masked, or you have over two hundred beers in the category:
American IPA, Imperial IPA. I think American Pale Ale is pretty high. Some of these other ones that they
get close to, you know, that are well over one hundred beers. You're getting into a situation where the
algorithm isn't--so, you know, when they're spitting out their initial rounds and the algorithm that isn't
accounting for past medal winners. Or beers--so you could have a round that has eleven beers in it, say
it's American IPA, and that round might not have a single beer that's ever been in the competition
before, or all new breweries that have never been to a competition for it. Then you could have another
set of eleven beers where every single one of those beers has won a medal in the American IPA category
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
29
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
before. (01:28:49) And they’re, as far as I know, they're not accounting for that. And to me, that changes
the game a little bit. Because even if you're a judge and you, at which has happened before, you'll get
around and you'll be like, “Man, it was tough to pass on three of those beers, really could have passed
on two or even just one and save the judges down the road some tasting.” Well, they require you to
pass on three. They really push you to pass on three. If you absolutely can't then they want to hear why
and want to hear an explanation. And so, I just believe that in that sense, you know, well maybe it's
okay, but in the other sense where they're like, “Man, we had eight good beers. It was really hard to
only pass on three beers.” (01:29:39) So, now you've got this thing where you might have a potential
medal winner that gets knocked out early because it was in a round with all excellent beer.
Downie: Yeah.
J Bagby: So that's--if I had a complaint about them, I wished that they would account for that. Especially
in those--there's only, I'm talking to a handful of categories where that is really something I think that
comes into play. The only other thing might be, like I said, to have grown with the competition or with
the industry and allow brewers to enter more beers. But that takes more time. It takes more judges.
They try to get the judging done in three days. If they didn't, they'd have to get another day, which is
paying more, but you have to pay to enter the competition. So, to me, there's some work that probably
could still be done. (01:30:33) And there is a lot of brewers out there that are like, “Oh GABF. It's kind of
eh.” You know, I believe in what my beers are and I send them and either I don't win medals or other
beers win medals in the category that I entered that I don't think are as good as my beer. I think you
have people that feel like that. But having been a judge, I've been on the tables. I've never been in a
case where I was like, “That beer should have won a medal and it's not in the top three,” you know? I've
never had a case where there wasn't a lot of thought and a lot of time spent into the beers that actually
win medals. They’re medal-winning beers.
Downie (01:31:15): Okay. I had a question and it’s just completely slipped my mind.
J Bagby: Sorry. I know.
Downie: No, that's okay. It still had to do with this. Um, I don’t know. (laughs)
J Bagby: With the competition, or--?
Downie: Well, oh, I know what it is. The brewers themselves decide what style of beer they’ve brewed.
Have you run into cases where you taste a beer and you go, “This has--should have been in this
category, you know. What were they doing putting it in here?”
J Bagby (01:31:43): Yeah. Yeah. And the BA (Brewer’s Association) is real upfront about that when they
tell brewers, you know, read the style guidelines and make sure that your beer fits into those guidelines
and they give you everything. They give you a verbal description of the bitterness, color, aroma,
mouthfeel, text--you know, everything. And then they also give you actual numbers for alcohol range,
color range. Those are the things you need to pay attention to. And I feel like there is brewers that still
don't pay attention to that. I don't know how or why. Or if they've just mislabeled their beers or what
happened. But, they're—it’s pretty upfront. Like, this is--the judges have this when they're sitting at
their table and they're going to read this before they start judging your beer. So, why would you enter
something that doesn’t fit?
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
30
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
Downie (01:32:39): Yeah, because you don't know why. Because I was thinking, well, maybe it's just
their taste buds are different? Or it didn't transport well. (laughs)
J Bagby: (01:32:48): Yeah. I think, you know, for instance, she (D Bagby) sent me a picture one day. She
had a Kölsch earlier. I can't remember what brewery she was drinking at. But she sent me a picture and
it was this hazy beer in a straight sided pint glass. And she wrote “Kölsch--?” And so of course I went,
“What does it taste like? Where are you at? Blah-blah-blah.” But a lot of people would look at that and
go, “Well, Kölsch should be bright,” you know? Any German from Cologne is going be like, “That's hazy,”
that’s got--you know. Even chill haze shouldn't really be there in a Kölsch.
Downie: Okay.
J Bagby: And a brewer's interpretation is one thing of what they call it on their menu board versus, you
know, what category they might enter it in GABF. So, a beer like that might be an entered in a Keller
beer. Because it might be an unfiltered Kölsch. So, they might say, well, “Yeah, it's German style Kölsch,”
but it's actually a Keller beer because it was brewed in the vein of a Kölsch, but Keller is a German style
beer.
Downie: (01:33:46): And that’s “K-E-L-L-E-R?”
J Bagby: Yeah.
Downie: Okay. I'm still learning all the—
J Bagby (01:33:53): Oh yeah, there’s tons. And that's-Downie: There’s huge number of beer styles.
J Bagby: Yeah, and there's, you know, historical beers that are becoming more popular and more rare,
more obscure recipes and styles where there's a little bit more confusion or debate over what is actually
correct. The Brewer’s Association does a good job of refining their categories and reviewing them each
year. So, they take judge's interpretation—or judge’s comments on style descriptions. “No, no, this
actually should be this way,” or “This should allow for this and this as well as this,” you know, so they do
a good job of keeping up with that. But yeah, if you, you know, taste a brewer’s altbier at one brewery,
and then he goes to another brewery and tastes another brewer’s altbier, they could be completely
different beers. So, there that slide in judgment, but when you get into competitions, where's the
category of your beer doesn't fit in it, then don't enter it. (laughs)
Downie (01:34:54): Well, I mean, brewing is such a creative process. And there are as best as you can try
certain factors like, you know, a Centennial hop may not be exactly the Centennial hop it was the year
before due to the growing season, the factors there. So, it really is a creative process, but I've been kind
of interested in the whole, you know, yes, I've seen some of these categories and descriptions and I'm
like, “How can you always guarantee that those beers?”--well, obviously not. Not surprised.
J Bagby (01:35:28): Yeah, there's interpretations of (unintelligible) category descriptions in different
ways, for sure.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
31
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
Downie (01:35:35): Well, while you were meeting that account, Dande was telling me how, you know,
when she first met you, how you were educating her into all the varieties of beers, you know? How she
has found that to be so helpful. And then just the brewers I meet all seem to be that way as they to
educate someone who--on the various styles that they're brewing or they're enjoying right at the time.
Do you find that wearing? You know, continually trying to educate more people?
J Bagby: (01:36:06): I think when it's--if I was doing it every day, I think it might get—or the same exact
set of beers every day or the same exact descriptions of the same person or the same, you know,
whatever. I think I might get a little tired of it. But to me it's kind of exciting, especially when you have
somebody that's open to it and isn't restrictive of themselves in their own palates. So, if you have
somebody that's like, “I've never tasted German-style Weisse beer. I've never tasted American Red Ale,”
which is kind of a better example. “I've never tasted Irish dry stout. I've never tasted—" you know?
Whatever it may be. And if you can get five or six of those things in samples right in front of somebody,
that's going to be a really cool conversation. Especially if that person's open to tasting and listening and
identifying with what you're talking about in each one, you know? When you say, “Oh, what do you
smell on that? (01:37:00) What are you getting that? Okay.” Those types of things come from this
ingredient or this timeframe or this hop or this malt and--or whatever other specialty ingredient might
be there. And when the person identifies and goes, “Oh wow, that's really cool. I never thought of it like
that.” All of the sudden you've got somebody who thought they hated German-style hefeweizen and
going, “No, actually I'm going to order that the next time I'm out because I want to compare it or I want
to see what it's like again, and kind of—"you know? I think people like, you know, connecting the dots in
their heads. And if you've given them a little bit, just to even a little bit to bite on like English-style bitter,
or an Extra Special Bitter, you know, what does that mean? What does that, it sounds, it sounds harsh,
Extra Special Bitter. (01:37:43) Well, no, there's actually some really nice malt depth in ESB (Extra Special
Bitter) and it should be there. Well, it should have a firm bitterness, but what kind of bitterness? Well,
it's not American piney, citrus, passion fruit, floral. And it's not that kind of hop it's the more herbal,
spicy, earthy hop from the English varieties. And even just that much, and a person can go, “Oh, well, I
really liked that.”
Downie: And it makes it more accessible.
J Bagby: And the next time, the next time I see it somewhere, I've got that connection in my brain to go,
“Yeah, I know what I'm ordering it and there it is. Affirmation.” I'm drinking it. And it smells and tastes
like I remembered. And I was told that it should. And I get that a lot where somebody will say, “Hey, you
mentioned that, you know, this style beer can have this, this, and this. But I tried it over here and I got
this, this, and this.” (01:38:34) And that's sometimes where the brewer’s discrepancy is between styles
or different ingredients or maybe just something is slightly different. But you can explain that away. And
therefore, they've learned a little bit more and they have their file on whatever that beer was just got a
little bit deeper in their head. So, the next time they try it and they connect the dots again. And I don't
know, to me that's fun. That's exciting. And it's really exciting to see when someone's open to that and is
engaging in that. It's kind of a little bit difficult when somebody says, “Oh, I don't like bitter beer,” or, “I
don't like hops.” And you're like, “Well, you just haven't tried the right hops yet.” It's like, if you like beer
and you're say you're a beer drinker, I believe--yes, you can have your favorites and the ones that you
don't think are as great to you, but you got to try everything. (01:39:24) You know, there's some newer,
crazy styles out there I get, but the basics, ales and lagers, and the families within there, the style of
families, if you say you're a beer drinker, you should know those or have a basic framework and
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
32
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
understanding of what those are or have the desire to go, “I've never really tried that. I'm not really
familiar with that, but I want to see. I want to see what it tastes like so that I know if I really like it, or I
don't.” To like, find that out later, you know, like give yourself the chance to like it.
Downie (01:39:56): It's like the three-bite rule with the kid and the vegetable. And then, you know, you
got to at least try three bites of it. And then if you don't like it, we'll go from there. So that's a good way
to do it. Now, do you have a favorite hop? Is there one that you like brewing with more than others?
J Bagby (01:40:12): There’s definitely hops—plural--that I like using. We're a pretty classic traditional
brewery. So, we stick to pretty traditional classic styles of beer. So, we're not using too many of the new,
exotic, crazier hops. We're sticking to more of the classic American Pacific Northwest American hops and
then the Nova varieties and then the English varieties. So, on the American side, you know, we're using a
lot of Cascades, Centennial, a little Amarillo and Simcoe, and Columbus and Chinook. And that's kind of
our core for the American side, but then the English ones are really wide and Noble hops as well. We use
a lot of different varieties and again, not a lot of real new flashy ones, in part because of our contracts,
we didn't know how and when our brewery was going to open. So, I bought a lot of hops because I was
afraid that we weren't going to have any when we opened. So that drove that a little bit. The other part
was just, yeah, I really liked those more classic American hops over some of the newer ones. Not to say
that I don't like sprinkling a little of them here and there in brews, but I tend to favor those classic ‘C’
hops (referring to Chinook, Citra and other hops starting with the letter C.)
Downie (01:41:30): And so you don't, from what you're saying, I'm hearing that you probably aren't
planning on doing, you know, real strange and experimental beers either, you know? You're going to
stick with the more--?
J Bagby: (01:41:43): No, I think if anything, I would pick some of the more obscure older styles. I’ve
talking with some friends about a smoked wheat beer that used to be made that is actually--I believe it's
actually a lager yeast and it's a fairly bright beer. But it has a smoked character to it, and a little bit of
bitterness and wheat malt character to it. But I'm always afraid to brew smoked beer because I think, I
always think that it's going to be me and like three other people drinking it. (Downie and D Bagby laugh)
Downie (01:42:11): Yeah, it could be a big mistake if you brewed it on your big system. So, do you have a
small system that you can do little test batches on?
J Bagby: No, it’s—
D Bagby: It’s all or nothing.
Downie: Well, that goes to being risk averse again.
J Bagby (01:42:27): Yeah, we have a little lager on right now. I think it tastes fantastic. I just think it
doesn't--I just think it's not exciting to people. It's a Belgium style beer. If you're familiar with Belgian
style dubbel, which is basically like a Belgian style brown ale, but it has a Belgian yeast character to it.
So, it's a little spicy and dark fruit and things like that. Well, take that and cut it in a little less than half
with alcohol and flavors and everything else. We dropped it down to only about four and a half percent.
It still has a lot of those characters, they're just a lot more mild and it's not as big and it's not as heavy.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
33
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
But it's not selling at all. (laughs) So, even somebody even called it dark Bud Light in the online
comment.
Downie: Oh dear. (laughs)
J Bagby: That was fun to read yesterday. (laughs)
D Bagby: That’s alright. It’s not for everyone.
J Bagby: Nope. And that's exactly. That's kind of how we thought about it.
Downie (01:43:23): One person's interpretation.
J Bagby: Exactly, exactly.
Downie: But yeah, if you're seeing that it's not really selling then, you know? You kind of-J Bagby (01:43:31): Yeah, we (unintelligible)-D Bagby: We had a few beers like, but that's, I mean, unfortunately, a few of them were Belgian styles.
J Bagby: Yeah.
D Bagby: But, Bruges Cruise was on for a long time.
J Bagby: Well, that's because it was over eleven percent. We had people that loved that beer. But, we
sold that at eight ounces at a time.
D Bagby (01:43:44): Yeah, but we had it on tap for a year, also.
J Bagby: (Unintelligible).
D Bagby: They do A12. They do A12. Which is good.
Downie (01:43:58): So, do you have much of a barrel aging program?
J Bagby (01:44:01): We started one. We had, uh, we did twelve barrels and then we did another set with
a different beer of just four barrels. All, most, all of that is gone now. So, we just brewed up Imperial
Stout and we're getting ready to purchase thirty barrels. Just deciding what other beers we're going to
put in those barrels and talk with the broker about making sure we get them as fresh as possible and
which barrels they'll have available at that time. So that we're not filling barrels that have been sitting
around drying out for months. They were nice and fresh.
Downie (01:44:38): Yeah, you want to be able to extract something out of those barrels. (laughs)
J Bagby (01:44:41): Exactly. But it's fun. I like doing it. But we do all straight up beer. We don't use any
Wild Geese (blended whiskey) or--
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
34
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
D Bagby: Cupcakes.
J Bagby: Or anything like that. (Downie and J Bagby laugh) So yeah, that’s fun. That's, to me, that's--I
don't know, that gets to the uber fun side of brewing. You're like, “Oh, I'm going to put this thing in
here.” Well, we had that beer that she was talking about in there for eighteen months and I just served
it in Miami last weekend and it tasted phenomenal.
Downie: (laughs) Love it when something works.
J Bagby: Yeah. And sometimes they're don’t. That’s true. Knock on wood, we were pretty lucky with our
barrels. Yeah.
Downie (01:45:23): Okay. Well, I think I've exhausted all my questions. I learned a lot from you both. I've
very, very, very much appreciated your time.
D Bagby: Oh sure, our pleasure.
J Bagby (01:45:31): If anything comes up or you're going through things and just feel free to email me or
her, and follow up.
Downie (01:45:37): Come back with something that didn't record or transcribe or something.
D Bagby (01:45:41): Don’t hesitate, we're happy to happy to help and also believe in what you're doing,
and also-J Bagby: Definitely.
D Bagby: And also love to talk about all this kind of stuff, people that-J Bagby: Yeah, it’s fun.
D Bagby: People that are interested in it. Because, you know, we work so close to it, it's our life. But we
are still--we are very passionate about it. And hopefully that comes through a little bit, even in
construction stuff, and crazy things like that.
Downie (01:46:01): I definitely see you have a future as working as a brewery construction consultant. (J
and D Bagby laugh) Because really, you have gone through a lot of effort to educate yourselves and to
do it right. And that kind of knowledge really should be shared. I mean, that's something I admire about
Mike Hess. He wrote that, you know, ‘starting up a brewery’ webpage, but that still doesn't tap on
everything. And especially, you know, doing something like this, of course every situation is going to
change with every city you’re dealing with.
D Bagby (01:46:34): But there are some basics that I think we would have really benefited from big time.
And I think we would have heeded, we would have paid attention if somebody was like, “Hey, we just
did this. Here's our experience. I'm here’s just how you can, you know, maybe avoid some of the pain,
some of the pain points.”
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
35
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
J Bagby (01:46:49): Yeah, the building part and you know, the construction management. I mean, I think
part of that goes a lot. Like I can use the comparison as somebody's going to buy their brewing
equipment and calling up three different equipment manufacturing and saying, “I want to buy a tenbarrel system, give me a quote,” and get three quotes and then just choose which one they want and
order the equipment and get it sent. Well, I went up to the equipment manufacturer’s warehouse and
talked with the engineers for two days before they even started drawing plans for my tanks. And then
when they were about to start doing the finishing and they connection piping and all the process piping,
I went back up there and stood in my tanks and looked at all the cores and looked at all the valves were
and told them where I wanted to move things moved or changed. (01:47:40) And the different specs on
all--every single tank, not just the, the brewhouse stuff, but the cellar as well. Because you might get
your tank and go like, “Why the heck is it like that?” And I kind of compare that to construction. Like we
could have probably sat around and worked on other things and let them take forever to build this place
and would have had something in the end, that would have been, but it wouldn’t been us and it
wouldn’t been right. And that's just how we operate. So, I think while we spend a lot of time on that and
we feel that it was absolutely one hundred percent necessary, some other people might be like, “Well,
he didn't really need to do that. You could of—”
D Bagby: Get by.
J Bagby: But it's not us. I guess that was what I was trying to say.
Downie (01:48:25): You have invested heavily in this, so why not have it right? But, Plan Nine (Plan Nine
Alehouse) over in Escondido, I was over there one day and they didn't have any of their own beers on
tap. And I said, “Gee, you don't have any of your own, I thought you were brewery.” And he said, “Well,
we got new equipment and we've had continual leakage.”
D Bagby: Oh no.
Downie: And they, you know, this was like nine months that they had been dealing with it. So, you were
exactly right in going--and I mean, even if you have to stand in your tanks and (unintelligible)—
J Bagby: Well, and it’s kind of fun too. (laughs)
Downie: Yeah, yeah. They will say, “Hey, I stood in my tank.” (all laugh) But, yeah.
D Bagby: That’s too bad.
Downie: So, something like that can go very, very wrong.
J Bagby: Yeah, looking at welds and not (unintelligible).
D Bagby (01:49:03): And also not having the support, because if you--when, you know, when you got
your, whatever it is, whatever contractor you have or manufacturer having--actually, we're just dealing
with the meeting before you got here or talking to a new point of sale company. And part of the reason
is just a sheer lack of support on our current system. There's no one we can call and say, “Hey, you know
our business, you know how we operate. These are the problems we're having.” There's just no one.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
36
2024-03
�JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2018-02-21
And so, this other company that's--you absolutely have a person. So having your tanks leaking, you're
losing money. You're, you know, that's literally money down the drain, and frustrating if you're a
brewery owner, you’re a brewer, you definitely don't want to see your beer going down the drain. Yeah.
Do you have the support you need from the manufacturer? Who's going to back up their work and if
not, then pay a few more bucks and get somebody who will.
J Bagby: Yeah.
Downie (01:50:00): Yeah. So, a lesson to live by.
D Bagby: Yes, that’s so true. Well, thank you so much.
Downie: (01:50:04): Thank you. Yeah, let's see. Where's my stop button? (Downie and D Bagby laugh)
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
37
2024-03
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Transcripts
Description
An account of the resource
Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview transcript, February 21, 2018.
Description
An account of the resource
Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024.
Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations.
Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles.
Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time.
In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer; homebrewing; introduction of craft beer to the region; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery; packaging and distribution; charity work; competitions, judging, and awards; consumer education.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jeff Bagby
Dande Bagby
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Judith Downie
Holly Sweat
Ernest Cisneros
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-21
Subject
The topic of the resource
Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.)
Brewers -- California -- San Diego County
Brewing industry -- California -- History
Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Oceanside (Calif.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
California State University San Marcos
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_transcript
Brewchive(r)
Women's experience
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Seth Stanley
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jennie Ruiz
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer)
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07.xml
Interview Keyword
This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record.
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 2023-04-07 Ruiz, Jennie. Interview April 7, 2023 SC027-029 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Student success Jennie Ruiz Seth Stanley mp4 RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07.mp4 1:|40(5)|52(10)|66(9)|77(15)|94(11)|105(8)|118(2)|135(1)|148(7)|166(14)|186(3)|212(2)|223(3)|235(3)|255(3)|273(1)|282(3)|292(4)|304(7)|342(5)|353(8)|368(2)|378(4)|388(3)|399(13)|410(1)|457(10)|468(7)|486(7)|510(1)|519(10)|529(9)|539(3)|549(4)|595(6)|606(1)|621(8)|633(13)|677(3)|690(1)|699(12)|713(1)|723(1)|736(10)|753(7)|764(3)|775(1)|794(6)|817(2)|837(9)|847(10)|860(10)|874(5)|885(2)|895(3)|937(11)|957(9)|968(3)|982(2)|1003(2)|1015(12)|1026(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/514cb50273b20f4b16cea6c5712830f4.mp4 Other video English 1 Introductions Introductions from Seth Stanley and Jennie Ruiz 34 Biographical/Educational Background Ruiz describes her personal and educational background. 85 Work During Education. Ruiz recalls working as a student and how it lead to her career in enabling student success in higher education. 187 Discovering Counseling Career Path Ruiz speaks about her beginnings of counseling as a career path and what led her to California State University San Marcos. 281 Experiences working for Student Success Ruiz recalls experiences supporting student success on campus, work as a peer mentor, the special-ness of the CSUSM student body, her work in the Dean of Students Office. CSUSM ; Student Success ; Student Success Coaching 555 Leadership Style and Experience Ruiz speaks about her leadership roles and leadership style in a university setting. CSUSM ; Faculty ; Leadership ; Staff ; Student Success Coaching 710 Network and Relationships on CSUSM Campus Ruiz details her networking skill and speaks about the relationships she's built at CSUSM CSUSM ; Faculty ; Networking ; relations ; Student Affairs 934 Relationships with Students and Building Rapport Ruiz speaks about her relationships with students on campus, building relationships with students and understanding their needs. CSUSM ; Faculty ; O-Team ; Orientation ; Student Relations ; Students ; Team-building 1162 Initial Experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center Ruiz speaks to her initial experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center, how she interacted with the CCC in her role overseeing student orientation, and what the center's physical space was initially like. C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; SLL ; Student Life and Leadership 1260 Cross-Cultural Center's Change Over Time Ruiz recalls how the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time, how the space where the CCC was located in relation to other parts of Student Life and Leadership, and the center's move to the Commons Building, work on a collaborative mural, and then the move to the University Student Union building. C3 ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Floyd Lai ; Jennie Ruiz ; SLL ; Student Life and Leadership ; Tukwut Courtyard 1791 Friendship With Sara Sheikh-Arvizu Ruiz describes her friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu, former Associate Director of Multicultural Programs at CSUSM. CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; Sara Sheikh ; Sara Sheikh-Arvizu 2080 Favorite Memories From Cross-Cultural Center Ruiz recalls working at the front desk of the Cross-Cultural Center, and remembers a student with significant mental health challenges, who found refuge and friendship at the CCC. C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; NSYCH ; Students 2344 How the Cross-Cultural Center Helped Her Develop as a Professional Ruiz speaks to the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on her as a professional, her privilege, and centering voices in programming. Ruiz recalls a workshop with the campus Jewish community. CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; intentionality ; Jennie Ruiz ; Privilege 2652 Memories from the Peer Mentoring Program Ruiz recalls some of her experiences with the creation of the Peer Mentoring Program and recalls an overnight retreat. CSUSM ; Floyd Lai ; New Students ; Peer Mentoring Program ; Retreats ; Sara Sheikh ; Team Building 2956 Thoughts on the Significance of Identity-Specific Spaces Ruiz speaks to the importance of having identity-focused university spaces like the Black Student Center, the Latin
/x Center, etc, which champion underrepresented communities and assist with student success. ACE Scholars ; Community ; CSUSM ; Diversity ; EOP ; Equal Opportunity Program ; Identity-Specific Spaces ; Underrepresented 3354 Cross-Cultural Center and the Purpose of Identity-Specific Spaces Ruiz expands on why identity-specific spaces are necessary and what groups benefit from them. She also goes on to speak about the role the Cross-Cultural Center plays with the expansion of identity-specific spaces. APIDA ; C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Identity Specific Spaces ; Jennie Ruiz ; Kamalayan Alliance ; Pacific Islanders Moving image Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos. Seth Stanley [Interviewer]: This is Seth Stanley. Today I' ; m interviewing Jenny Ruiz for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Hi Jenny. Thank you for coming. Jennie Ruiz [Narrator]: Hi, Seth < ; laughs> ; . SS: To start out, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how that maybe has influenced your work in higher education? JR: Oh, goodness. Okay. Background. How far do you, how do you, how far do you want me to go? SS: As long as you want. JR: Oh goodness. Well, I was born, no, um-- SS: Go for it. JR: Background. Um, so I' ; m born and raised in San Diego, um, from Mira Mesa originally, um, went to college up at Sonoma State. For my undergrad. And did, um, got my degree in sociology. So I did a few different majors, but then I landed on sociology cause I had a really great Intro to Soc[iology] professor who I really enjoyed. Um, and through my time at Sonoma State, I got involved in various things. I mainly had to work on campus just to pay bills and live and all that. So I worked in like different food service and I worked in retail off campus, and actually told the story last, it was, what was it, Tuesday at a session I led about my like, professional journey. But I had a, a job on campus where I was having to put up flyers across campus and I hated it. I would have like hundreds of flyers to post. Um, this is before lot. This is before like electronic signage and all of that. So I, um, and I was miserable but I saw a flyer for a job in the Career Center on campus and I' ; m like, thank goodness no one else has seen this ad at this point ' ; cause I' ; m putting the ads up, so I' ; m gonna apply for this job, which I did. And that kind of took me into this path of, um, of higher ed and student affairs. It kind of opened me up into, like the orientation, you know, kind of world new student orientation, ' ; cause a lot of things were run through that area. Academic advising, I interacted with, um, the program called Freshman Seminar there, which is similar to our GEL program here [program geared towards first-year students and student success in academia]. So I served in various leadership roles. I actually got, uh, I was on the dean' ; s list one semester. There, grades were never my thing, but one semester I got on the dean' ; s list and I got an invitation to apply for leadership positions on campus. So that in conjunction with my job in the Career Center just kind of launched me into kind of the higher ed. like, oh, this is kind of fun! So I was an orientation leader. I worked as a peer mentor in our freshman seminar class. I was a student assistant [at the] Career Center. And then once I graduated, I was looking into kind of a counseling area. Um, didn' ; t quite know what I was going to do and my dad, funny enough, got me a book called What to Do with a Sociology Degree, and I was reading it one day and there was a paragraph on college counseling and I was like, of course I could do this job for work! I had never even connected [that] the professional staff that I worked with were doing that as a career. So that kind of, you know, launched me and I applied for grad school. I went to USD [University of San Diego] for my master' ; s in counseling with a specialization in college student development. Worked in my orientation, worked in the orientation program there as a grad assistant. And then after that, got a job at Stony Brook University in New York as a residence hall director. Um, my friend tipped me off to a job that was here at Cal State San Marcos to be Coordinator of New Student Programs. So I applied for that job and I thankfully got it. And, um, that started my career here back in 2006, back when, funny enough, C3 [Cross-Cultural Center] was literally, I think the size of this room when I first started on the fourth floor, third floor of, um, no, the administrative building past, then [named] Craven Hall. So, and then since then I' ; ve just held a variety of positions and here I am. < ; laugh> ; . SS: [Inaudible] Tell me more about what motivated you to work in a specifically a college setting and specifically supporting student success. JR: Yeah. I think people go into higher ed or any of their professions for one or two reasons: either they had a really good experience or they had a really awful experience and didn' ; t want that to be repeated for somebody else. In my case, I had a fantastic college experience. I had great mentors, I had really great opportunities. Um, so I felt very fortunate. And I just, you know, in my work as a peer mentor in the freshman seminar class, I was meeting individually with these first time freshmen, really working with them and, and you know, talking with them about just life and how to connect and find their place on campus. And I found myself really enjoying it and kind of becoming-- it was a natural thing to me. Um, and so I think I wanted to feel that in my career, be able to really take that with me. And, one of the great things about I think this campus, but just the CSU [California State University] is I think our students are just so special and just work so hard. Not saying that students don' ; t work hard other places but that there' ; s something about our students here. Um, there' ; s a lot of gratitude, there' ; s a lot of understanding, I think, of the privilege they have of being here and getting their degree and, you know, working with that population is really, really rewarding. So, you know, did I want-- I wanted to be that for other students moving forward. But I just loved the feel of being on a college campus. There' ; s nothing like it. I now have a almost seven year-old and just, he' ; s been able to be here since when, since he was born. And just knowing that-- he actually said the other night, he' ; s like, " ; You go to college!" ; And I' ; m like, no, I don' ; t go to col-- I' ; m not a college student, I work at a college. But he just, he associates college with me. And that' ; s just, he' ; s grown up in that environment. And then my mom also worked at USD for 30 years. So, I grew up going to campus with her and hanging out with college kids who, funny enough, seemed significantly older than they do now. So, it was just always a part of, you know, who I was. And so, I felt fortunate to find a place here. SS: And, now you' ; re working as the Interim Director of Student Success Coaching, right? Can you walk us through your experiences as that at the job? JR: In the five weeks I' ; ve been in the position, < ; laugh> ; , um, it' ; s-- it' ; s been, it' ; s been really great. It' ; s actually brought me back to I' ; d say my roots here because I started here at CSUSM overseeing orientation and really working with new students and first year students and all that. So, it' ; s been fun in the short time I' ; ve been here to work with the team to really be creative about how we' ; re gonna be engaging students who are coming in this next year. We' ; re kind of in this two-- two paths right now. It' ; s the finish this semester, but then let' ; s think big and creatively for the incoming class who' ; re gonna be here in fall [20]23. So just really, learning from the team and thinking about how impactful the work that they' ; re doing can really be for the retention success of the first-time freshman coming in. So, I don' ; t know how much you know about the program but it serves first-year students who are not in an otherwise specialized program. So who are not in the Educational Opportunity Program who are not in TRIO [Student Support Services], who are not in CAMP [College Assistance Migration Program], um, ACE Scholars who are former foster youth, and then athletes or international students. So, we kind of capture the rest of the students, so don' ; t really have a home, you know, and we wanna be that contact for them to kind of have that, that person they can go to for any questions that they have just about college. Um, so it' ; s going well. I' ; m really enjoying it. I' ; m able to be creative and think through things and plan, which is something I love to do. SS: So, I know you' ; ve only worked there for, you' ; ve only been working in this position for five weeks, but, um, could you tell me, tell me about, your leadership style and how you adapted to different situations and team members? JR: Yeah, I mean, I think I can relate it to, ' ; cause I was in my old position as associate dean for almost seven years. So I' ; ve been in management leadership roles for over ten, twelve years now. But yeah it' ; s been interesting because I joined a brand new team and so I really had the chance to kind of see how I was gonna adapt myself to them and how they were gonna receive me. And you know, it' ; s funny, my first day I brought donuts and I said to them, ' ; cause this team right now doesn' ; t have a permanent space. They' ; re literally working in a temporary space right now. So my first thing was how do I provide them with a level of, you know, kind of stability and structure. So even in an absence of a physical, permanent location, they can kind of feel that stability. SS: Mm-hmm. JR: But I came in that first day and I was like, so I haven' ; t started a new job in a very long time. So I said, I just ask for your grace. But I' ; m as much as, as reasonable and appropriate, obviously it' ; s just about the human first. These are all human beings who are working in a job and if you don' ; t connect that piece and know what really matters to these people just in life, you' ; re kind of missing the mark. So my goal was, and I told people ' ; cause they wanted to meet with me, people outside my team wanted to meet with me very quickly to like talk about coaching and how I could collaborate. And I said, I want the first month to be me focusing on the team, getting to know the team, building those relationships. And so meeting with them individually and getting to know their strengths and kind of where there' ; s opportunities. But I, I' ; d say I' ; m very, I' ; m all about personal connections and relationships and being collaborative. But I' ; m also good about being, like, sometimes we just kind of have to do things and we can' ; t bring everyone into the fold, but I want to be as transparent as possible, communicate, provide, make sure people are in the loop. ' ; Cause the less transparency there is, people then start to kind of worry and, you know create a narrative themselves. And so, but also humor. I like to approach things with humor. But Yeah. SS: Well, sounds like you' ; re the right person for the job. < ; laughter> ; Um, I' ; d like to ask, how have you leveraged your networks and relationships to support student development and success? JR: Oh gosh. SS: < ; laughs> ; JR: You know, it' ; s-- so this talk I just gave on Tuesday, the Division of Student Affairs does, um, they just started this series called Conversations with Leaders. And they finally, they asked, they asked me to speak and I' ; m like, okay, because part of me is like, " ; You want me to talk? Oh, that' ; s fine!" ; So I talked a lot about this, but one of the benefits of my job, the job I had here when I first started with orientation: it' ; s such just by the nature of the job, so highly collaborative that, that set me up for how I have literally done everything else in every other position I have here on campus. So, it had me working with event planning, with catering, with parking facilities, with advising, with, you know, leadership to student life. Like I work with every area on campus. And so through that, and I' ; m asking people to do things when I don' ; t have any leadership or jurisdiction over them. And so you very quickly had to establish this relationship with people so you can-- ' ; cause all I would do in that job is ask people for favors. It' ; s just, " ; I need you to do this. Can you help with this?" ; And so, and I fast forward now, there' ; s one of the colleagues I' ; ve worked with, I met him my second day working, he works in advising and now I' ; m meeting with him about coaching and how to collaborate. And it' ; s just, we laugh now that I' ; m like, talk about full circle and even doing training on some technology that we' ; re gonna be implementing into the program. The person in IT [Information Technology], I worked with him when PeopleSoft was first coming on board. And so again, it' ; s like " ; It' ; s so fun to work with you again!" ; But, all that to say, it' ; s been so key. And I think what has been very validating is when I' ; ve come into this job, the, the reactions I' ; ve gotten from people saying, " ; I' ; m so glad it' ; s you and I can' ; t wait to work with you in this role." ; And that' ; s been really affirming and I feel like because of my relationships, I' ; ve been able to, you know, there' ; s credibility. I' ; m able to connect the coaches with people that they haven' ; t connected with before. And, you know, if they have a question, I' ; m like, " ; Let me just ask this person directly, like what the answer is." ; They' ; re like, " ; You can just do that?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Yeah, I just can chat whoever, or text whoever and vice versa." ; So what I shared on Tuesday at the session was relationships is literally how I' ; ve gotten everything done here on this campus. It' ; s, it' ; s been so, so important. So I don' ; t think I answered the question? SS: No, I love that. I love that. I' ; m so glad to see you [indistinguishable]. JR: It' ; s been, it' ; s very sweet. I' ; m like, " ; Thank you!" ; It is very, because especially it' ; s people that I' ; ve worked with forever and you know, and you just want people who are collaborative and willing to hear you out and you can laugh with. And I actually said to somebody the other day on the call, I said, " ; You don' ; t have to be diplomatic with me. Just tell me there' ; s clearly something there. So just like, tell me how you' ; re feeling so we can just deal with it." ; And I think they appreciated it because with some people you have to be very diplomatic and be very discreet in how you' ; re saying things. And I' ; m like, just, " ; I' ; ve been here long enough. Like, just tell me." ; SS: [Indistinguishable] So I' ; d like to ask, how do you approach building rapport with students and understanding their unique, needs? JR: Yeah. Um, so I' ; ve had the benefit, I mean, since I' ; ve started here to work directly with students. So in my orientation job, I supervised volunteers who are on orientation team. I supervise students who were paid staff. Like those were my direct reports. So I was directly supporting and working with students. I think very similar with how I just work with anyone. I-- it' ; s so hard to describe something that I feel like just kind of happens, but I try to feel people out. You know, again, I approach a lot of things with humor, but obviously if this setting is not appropriate right, it' ; s, you know, I' ; m able to kind of feel that out. I feel like I' ; m very intuitive. Like, I joke that my superpower is intuition because I can-- I can tell-- if I know someone, I can tell like when they walk in a room and be like, there' ; s something going on or what' ; s happening, and I' ; ll just kind of give a look and be like, you let me know what you need. Like, but I just, I stop and I make efforts. I get to know people and with students, that makes, that makes a difference. You know just being visible and being authentic. Providing, you know, sharing with-- with discretion of course, but like my own personal life and connections and here and there. Um, but you know, in my old-- in my previous position, I was working with students in some really difficult circumstances ' ; cause I was overseeing student conduct. I was overseeing students who were really in a difficult situation within their life. Whether it' ; s, they' ; ve had very something very difficult happen to them and they' ; re navigating it and how they' ; re acting may not be the most appropriate in that setting. And just, um, I' ; m really good about student[s] coming in and being like, " ; What is going on? Like, what' ; s, what' ; s happening?" ; And also good about being like, what we' ; re doing here isn' ; t working. So how do we, let' ; s figure it out. So through the years I' ; ve gotten very good at being direct, but in a supportive manner? Um, some, well, supervisor joked with me, she' ; s like, " ; I' ; ve never met somebody who could suspend a student, and in the same sentence, the student, thanks you." ; < ; laugh> ; It' ; s just, it' ; s treating somebody as a human being. ' ; Cause, even if you' ; re making a decision that' ; s difficult, you can still do it with compassion. And humor too. I love to be sarcastic with students, like, especially O team [Orientation Team]. ' ; Cause I still have a connection with the students who are on orientation team. ' ; Cause my previous position, I was still in the same office and I would, they' ; d be laying down on orientation day and I' ; d just be like, " ; What are you doing?" ; They' ; re like, " ; Oh, sorry Jennie!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; Come on," ; < ; laugh> ; " ; Get your, get yourself together. Don' ; t be laying down on the job." ; So. SS: All right. Um, finally we' ; re gonna get into the Cross-Cultural Center Questions. JR: I know this is like, this is getting us-- getting me warm. Okay. SS: I Really love that. Yeah. I love, like, you' ; re just a person people can trust, a conduit of stability. JR: Conduit of stability. Oh, that' ; s deep. Okay. SS: Could you, anyway, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? JR: Mm-hmm. What I remember about C3 is what we call it. Um, so when I first started, we had, and I imagine you' ; re interviewing Alexis Monte Virgin, SS: Um, I' ; m not sure, she' ; s not one I' ; m interviewing. JR: Yeah, he was the coordinator when I first started. Um, he' ; s like a president of a university now. It' ; s amazing. So he was, he was the coordinator. The, the interaction I had with C3 when I started-- because I oversaw orientation, the Student Life and Leadership Office at the time was this compacted space in, um, past known as Craven Hall. And so when I had on orientation days, we needed a place for Orientation Team to debrief the day. So we' ; d go up to C3. So that' ; s how, that' ; s what I remember it as. We' ; d go up to, we' ; d go to C, we' ; d be sitting on the floor. They had these big red couches, the red couches, the red chairs, and, it was small, but it was like, it was cozy. But yeah, we would just be having people sit on every surface possible and have our debriefing sessions there. And that' ; s kind of my initial like, connection and, memory of how I first interacted. SS: This is a really big follow up, but, how did it shift over time? And did you have any role in this change? JR: Um, how it shifted? So, pretty quickly after I started, probably within the first year-- and I think the plans had already been happening, was we were gonna be moving spaces. We were gonna be moving, offices to the first floor, no, to the third floor [of the Administration Building]. So I don' ; t know if you' ; re familiar or not- where Ace Scholars is now, where the Tukwut courtyard is? That' ; s where Student Life and Leadership used to be. So we were already, when I first started, kind of in this future planning, dream big mode of what can Student Life and Leadership look like. But at that time, C3 was under the purview of Student Life and Leadership. So figuring out where and how that space - because it was very important to have a designated space - not have it be interweaved into our office, but have a community building location for the Center. So, I am sure that I was part of conversations because we were doing like kind of physical planning of the office, figuring out where everything was gonna kind of be. Um, because I was overseeing orientation, the space back then it was, I had this massive cubicle-- Um and then around the corner through a door was where C3 was. So it was an office physically located like right off of the general Student Life and Leadership office. So, kind of talking through and brainstorming how we were gonna fit these red couches into that space. The space was kinda like a triangle. So doing the physical kind of puzzle pieces, you know, figuring out, um, you know, what to put on the walls and to create that space was definitely part of that conversation. So, but yeah I don' ; t remember the nuances, but I would imagine because it was physically located there, we were all part of that " ; What does this look like?" ; conversation. So, um, how it' ; s evolved since then? I mean, it was in that space. And then, if I remember correctly, I don' ; t know what happened first, but a leadership program was created within Student Life and Leadership. It' ; s called SLL [Student Life and Leadership]. And, the idea was to create a Tukwut leadership. Um, is it Tukwut Leadership Center? Yeah. I think I' ; m remembering this correctly. So what ended up happening, I think a space opened up in the Commons Building directly across from Commons 206, I think is the room. And so the Cross-Cultural Center moved up there and then the [TLC], that [Tukwut] Leadership [Center] space, um, kind of a space for leadership programs and student organization meetings, stuff like that, moved into that triangle space on the third floor. So the space when it was up there was-- I mean, it was massive. It was, I mean, comparatively speaking, I mean there was, there were windows, um, there was like a welcome desk. There were the couches again, I believe. We had at one point, I don' ; t know what the timeframe was, but we had painted this like collective mural where everybody had like, it was a, program that they had brought to campus with a muralist. And they pretty much gave us different pieces to draw and paint. And that was put together, I think it' ; s still up in the C3 here in the Student Union, I wanna say. But that was up in the space and it was just bigger and more open. And I wanna say it was up there until the Student Union opened, which I wasn' ; t in as much conversation about because at that time I had transitioned more into the Data Students Office-ish role. So I wasn' ; t gonna be under the same umbrella. But I remember the conversations about the physical space in the Student Union and, the offices and having a balcony and having programming space and all of that. And so you see this space now. I mean it' ; s just, it' ; s just beautiful. And it' ; s with the balcony. And we' ; ve held some retreats in there and separate kind of staff meeting stuff. And Floyd' ; s [Lai, Director of the CCC] great. He' ; s always willing to host people. Um, so it' ; s done a lot of trainings in there and stuff like that. So, that' ; s kind of how the physical space has evolved. It' ; s gone a long way from this sized office. SS: Thank you for that. JR: Yeah. SS: So many permutations. I love the red couches. JR: The red couches. I mean, that' ; s the thing. And you probably will hear a consistent thing is this thread, the red couches is what C3 was. Like, that is what was, you know, the signature furniture there. SS: Yeah. [Indistinguishable] JR: Oh, I' ; m sure you did. SS: Anyways, um, I knew that you were temporary temporal, sorry. Temporarily responsible for the Cross-Cultural Center during a transition between associate directors. Let me ask you, what led you to that position? JR: < ; laughs> ; SS: How' ; d that Happen? JR: I don' ; t know. You know, I think, when you' ; re in a-- when you' ; re leading a department right? And somebody leaves, you' ; re kind of like, okay, who could kind of pick things up and keep them moving while we' ; re doing a search, right? I think the reason I was kind of a natural person to jump into that position and I felt very grateful to do it, was because with my work with New Student Programs and Orientation, I had collaborated with, with Sara Sheik, who remains one of my dearest friends, we had collaborated on the creation of a peer mentoring program. So it was a orientation, New Student Programs and Cross-Cultural Center, um, Multicultural Programs, collaborative program. Where we focused on pairing up first-year students from underserved, underrepresented populations. So really it was, I forget the criteria but, primarily students of color, first gen[eration] students who weren' ; t part of other specialized programs, which now I think about it, I' ; m like, that' ; s funny. That' ; s the population I' ; m working with again. So, because we had worked so closely on that and had, we' ; re really working with the staff on creating that program, and we interviewed and hired the mentors and we onboarded the mentees and all of that stuff. I think when Sara ended up leaving, I was a natural kind of-- ' ; Cause I had already been working with the, with the directors and coordinators of the other, of the other centers. I had already been working with the staff in C3 on this program. So, it was kind of a natural, you know, " ; Can you just help with this for a little bit?" ; And so that way we, you know, can have some consistency? Um, so it was a fun- SS: Yeah, I tried to find how long you were in that position. I couldn' ; t find it. How Long? JR: It was about a semest- I' ; d say it was about a semester, if not an entire semester. It was a couple of months in the spring semester of-- oh gosh, I don' ; t know what year it was. [20]10, [20]11, [20]12, around that time. Yeah, because it was before- ' ; cause I moved into the Interim Assistant Dean of Students position in January, 2013. So I would say it was probably nine [2009] or [20]10 possibly, but it was only a couple months while we worked on, hiring and getting Floyd. So. SS: Perfect. I don' ; t wanna get too sidetracked but, I' ; d like, if you' ; re willing, I' ; d like you to tell me about your friendship with Sara [Sheikh]. How is she? JR: God. Is this what she started crying about when she was asking about relationships? SS: I' ; m not sure. < ; laughs> ; JR: Oh gosh, Sara, what a special human. Um, she texted me earlier. She' ; s like, how was your interview? I' ; m like, it' ; s at three. So I' ; ll tell her that you all asked about her. Um, I remember interviewing her because when we would bring candidates on for our department, you know, we' ; d all have a chance to meet all the candidates and whatnot. She first off, she was not, how do? This is the diplomatic part of me. She was not allowed to reach her fullest potential here. Her skills and her talents were not as tapped as they possibly could have been here. She left before she should have. Um, but opportunities arose and she had to take it. But she is, we are so incredibly different, but she is a quiet, calm, intentional, just peaceful human being. Everything she does is with intention and purpose. And she' ; s one of those people in my life, and I tell her all the time, and it' ; s now her and her wife because they' ; re, they' ; re like cup filling people like you, you hang out with them, you spend time with them. And I' ; m like, okay, my soul, has been refilled. Um, not to get into politics, but this is, this is related the day of the, the day after the 2016 election, there were various emotions. And she happened to be on campus that day. She, Sara was here, this was years after she' ; d gone, but she happened to be bringing a group of students here to campus. And I told her, I said, you are the perfect and only person I would' ; ve wanted to interact with on this day. Because she' ; s so good at just like being in a space with and just allowing space and asking intentional questions. But-- and then her laugh is just so unique. Like when you get her laughing, it' ; s just like, there' ; s no laugh like it. Um, but she just, the students so highly respected her, and everything that she touched here, again she did with intention and purpose. And she makes everyone feel like literally you' ; re the only person in the room. She has nothing else to distract her. It' ; s a very intentional, like, you' ; re hearing it a, a pattern like purposeful and intentional. She' ; s just a good, good person. So, I remember, ' ; cause I tend to talk a lot and, um, and this isn' ; t fair ' ; cause you' ; re asking me to talk, so there' ; s no, there' ; s no judgment here. But I remember we were at a, we were doing a staff retreat and I had to get used to that. she would process. So, you know, somebody would ask a question and a prompt, and we had to give space for Sara because Sara needed time to kind of put all of the thoughts together and process and whatnot. And so, I' ; ve always taken that with me. But, we' ; ve, you know, she was at my wedding. I was at her wedding. She met my son when he was, you know just after he was born. I' ; ve had the privilege to, I was there the day that, they officially adopted their son. I was taking pictures and just, just one of those people, you know? Just one of those people in your life that I' ; m grateful for our relationship here. And just the connection and it, I, it' ; s one of those things where I' ; m like, thank you for allowing me to stay in your life. Because there' ; s days where I' ; m like, what do I bring to you? < ; laughs> ; Because she' ; s just so fantastic. But she would just kind of, she would brush that off and be like you' ; re nuts. So she' ; s special. SS: I love that. That' ; s incredibly great [indistinguishable]. That' ; s amazing. I know we' ; re in the little sidetrack here, but- JR: No, it' ; s fine. it' ; s all connected. SS: It' ; s all oral history, its all about people, so. JR: It Is. SS: Back to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you tell me about a favorite memory? Or not even a favorite, just a memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center? JR: Hmm. < ; laugh> ; . SS: This is a little stumped [one]. JR: No, it' ; s not stumped. I just, there' ; s certain things that it' ; s like, I just immediately remember and I' ; m like, it doesn' ; t have to be super deep, right? SS: Mm-hmm. JR: I remember there was a period of time, I don' ; t know, I think it was before Sara left, but, um, there were ti-- I don' ; t know if she was out, but, we needed to have physical presence in the Center. And so each of the SLL staff would sign up for shifts to sit at the front desk of the center. And, I remember, I love NSYNC. It' ; s a boy band. Yeah. And I remember I was listening to Pandora at the time, it was Pandora. And I told them, I was up there, I had like a morning shift and I said, " ; If I am here at my shift, you are hearing NSYNC and boy bands." ; And it just became a thing. They' ; re like, " ; Oh, Jennie' ; s here." ; And I would just play that music. And, it was, that' ; s the first thing that kind of came to mind. It was just kind of funny. They were like, " ; Oh God, Jenny' ; s on shift." ; But it was cool because it got us physically out of our own offices and I looked forward to that, you know, physical, that physical location change. But then to interact with students in different ways. Um, God, there' ; s a lot of memories. I met a student, and I won' ; t say his name for obvious reasons you' ; ll learn shortly, but I first met him in C3 and I remember him ' ; cause he would walk in and he was always in military gear, but like not like he, he was like within the military, he was always just wearing like military-grade-- SS: Camo? JR: Yeah. He had like a, this military-grade backpack, like, the combat boots and just, and he was just the sweetest, kindest person. And I, that' ; s he, that was the first time I met him was in the C3. And he would come in there all the time and that' ; s where he would hang out and we would talk about life. And he quickly disclosed to me that he had dealt with some significant mental health challenges. And just, my brother has also dealt with some stuff and so he and I were connecting on that and just talking about life and making those connections. And I remembered he had gone away for a bit and then he had returned and he was, he was having some challenges as only a couple years ago. Unfortunately he passed away last year. But I always remember just that connection I had with him. And I realized, you know, a lot of other people on campus had that connection with him. He was just, he was just this unique soul. He was like an old soul. He dealt with so much adversity with mental and physical health, but he just always came with just a presence of kindness and just sh- like sheer gratitude. And when I-- when I changed, when I moved outta my office a couple weeks ago, ' ; cause I was in that office for nine years. One of the things I was, I was cleaning this stuff out and I found a thank you card from him. And I was like, wow, what a gift. And he had, it was after I was out of the role within relation to [C3], but it' ; s a couple years ago when I helped him with some stuff and it just said, " ; Thank you for helping me in one of the difficult times in my life." ; and I was just like, God, what a gift you just gave me. So, um, I don' ; t know if I would' ; ve had the chance to meet him had I not been in that, you know, in that physical space because I know that was a space of safety for him, which was I know the case for a lot of students, so. SS: Wow. JR: [Mm-hmm] < ; laugh> ; . SS: Sorry about that. JR: I know it' ; s tough and yeah. Yeah. SS: [indistinguishable] It' ; s remembering NSYNC Radio, at least. < ; laugh> ; JR: NSYNC Radio. But I think even with him, I still smile, you know, and um, yeah, ' ; cause again, he just exuded gratitude and it, um, yeah. So mm-hmm. SS: Well on a lighter note! Uh. JR: < ; laugh> ; , I know, sorry take these down. SS: No, no, no. It' ; s perfect. It' ; s perfect. I know you only worked there for a semester, but how might have your work at the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional? JR: Massively. I mean, you know, as a, as a White woman, straight CIS woman, I bring privilege with me and I always am trying to learn and understand that what my physical presence may bring depending on the space and I' ; m at right? And, the majority of the students who, who hung out in that space were, were students of color, primarily students who were of Asian Pacific Islander descent. But, it was something for me to be able to-- when I first got asked to kind of fill in the role, part of me was like I didn' ; t want my own identity to be a detriment to their development. But I realize now me even just knowing that I think < ; laughs> ; makes a difference. That I' ; m aware of how my identity impacts those around me. But there were some experiences that came up that I remember we were doing, we were doing some activities-- Oh we were doing a, an event and it was around, um, Judaism, and I don' ; t remember what the content of the workshop was, but Hillel, which is still an active organization for serving and supporting Jewish students, but obviously non-Jewish students can be involved. There was some concern about us offering this workshop and possibly providing false information. And it was one of those things that in the moment you can get very defensive, right? You can be like, no, you know, we' ; re not, we' ; re not trying to do anything to whatever. But what it had me do was, you need to stop for a second and be-- again, the intentionality. It really taught me just you to think of anyone who could be potentially impacted, but also leveraging the voices that you have and collaborate and pull them in. Um, ' ; cause why wouldn' ; t have we have collaborated with folks on campus who live that on, on a daily basis and could provide some additional you know, but I was advising students at this time and the student was just doing what he was told. He was creating these workshops kind of in a vacuum. But it was a really good lesson to, again, do things as intentionally as possible. Even if it means you have to move the workshop a few weeks later, if it means we' ; re doing it the right way, let' ; s do that. So that was a really good lesson and I think it ended up being fine. We ended up collaborating with them. Um, and then just--Trying to think. I mean, just working with all different types of people and interacting with students I probably normally wouldn' ; t have just because they weren' ; t involved in Orientation Team. Like this, this particular pocket of students who worked as student assistants, within all the other centers because there was kind of like this collective team they had of- at the time the Women' ; s Center, the Pride Center, and the Cross-Cultural Center, those three centers ; our staffs would get together on a frequent basis. And there' ; s folks from other staffs that I have connected with that I' ; m still in, contact with that I probably would never have interacted with. And to be honest, they probably would never have even-- based on who I am and how I present and probably would never have even interacted with me. And so, it was a great opportunity to kind of make those connections. But, um, I learned some more things just about program planning. We, we planned some pretty big events and just again, how to honor history and culture and doing it in a meaningful manner while advising students who just wanna get things done. And it' ; s like, how do you balance that? So that was, um, that was a good experience. SS: Yeah. That' ; s great. Um, making connections. using your voices. Moving on, could you describe, and this doesn' ; t have to be with the Cross-Cultural Center ' ; cause I know you worked a pretty short time over there. Could you describe a project or initiative you with that you are particularly proud of, or were a part of necessarily? JR: Hmm. Geez, just so many SS: < ; laughs> ; JR: I think I can discuss the peer mentoring program. Although it was short-lived, I think for what it was. It' ; s one of those programs that no matter how good of a program you have, if you don' ; t have the resources to continue it, you can only do so much. And so-- but it was, it was really cool because it was kind of a brainchild of Sara and then she came to me and said, " ; You work with new students, can we just do this connection?" ; And so we really got a chance to dig into the benefits of peer mentoring and we kind of, we created it really from the ground up. We recruited current students to be peer mentors, created that training for them. And because of my work with O-Team [Orientation Team], who is solely volunteers, you know, I had a training with them, a weekly training with them on, in the spring semester, and then we had retreats. And so I was able to really bring that component. Um, and then what Sara brought was really the, the pieces of how-- why we' ; re serving this particular population because there is an equity gap that our white students are persisting at a higher rate and graduating at a higher rate than our students of color. So, and then there was research that showed that peer mentoring specifically helps to close-- is one of the most beneficial components that a student could have to have a peer to peer connection. So it was really fun to work with her on that and really create the curriculum, create the, the criteria for the mentors. And then I remember we had spreadsheets and we were divvying up the, the caseloads of like who, or not the caseloads-- of like who would be matched with certain mentors and stuff like that. Um, and so that was really fun. And then once Sara left and Floyd came on, um, I don' ; t think it was a while, but he and I had the idea to do like an overnight retreat with this program. So what we did was we had them all come together. So we' ; ve had the mentors and the mentees, this is before school even started, had them on a bus. We drove up to Julian [California] and we did kind of team-building activities. And it was really-- I remember we had this, we wanted to do a ropes course and we had, there' ; s a ropes course at this camp. And I remember Floyd and I were brought in probably three days before the retreat. And our boss at the time said, we can' ; t spend the money on this. And we' ; re like, " ; What are we supposed to do?" ; So then he and I just like hunkered down and created like our own like, internal team-building exercises, but we' ; re like, " ; What the hell are we gonna do?" ; But we figured it out. What' ; s funny now is I think it was that year, one of the mentees is now on my coaching staff. SS: < ; laughs> ; . JR: So I' ; ve known him forever and it' ; s really cool. And then funny enough we, well it' ; s not funny but, we had to buy a new car this past weekend, track me here-- and I, we go to San Diego County Credit Union because that, we had literally just paid our car off on Thursday and that' ; s when our car died. So we went back to San Diego County Credit Union. Said we wanted to get a loan with you again. And as we' ; re meeting with this loan officer, she' ; s like, where do you work? I told her, she' ; s like, " ; I knew you look familiar!" ; And my husband' ; s always like, " ; I swear to God, she knows people everywhere." ; And she said, " ; I was part of the peer mentoring program" ; and I remembered her ' ; cause she was assigned to, I would say was our best mentor ' ; cause some of our mentors left a lot to be des-- like, " ; Can you talk? Can you touch base with your students?" ; But this one -- and her last name was Ruiz as well -- and so we connected on that, but it was so cool to see this student who had been in the peer mentoring program and just being like, " ; I remember you!" ; And it was a nice little reunion. Um, but I thought it was a really cool framework to create. Um, unfortunately the resources just weren' ; t able to keep it going. So. SS: Yeah. That' ; s cool that you saw your, your one mentor--[indistinguishable] JR: It was so funny that, " ; I know you look familiar!" ; When I said I worked at campus, it was funny. SS: Yea I Know plenty of people working in the university space currently working with limited resources. Yeah, it' ; s definitely challenging. JR: It is. Especially when it' ; s such meaningful work like that. I mean, it' ; s literally to support, but now I' ; m in a space again to be able to do that same kind of work, which is exciting. SS: Mm-hmm. What is the significance of having a space that champions underrepresented students? JR: Um, I mean so much. And with underrepresented students, obviously that' ; s such a large umbrella, right? And then every group and, and community that makes up that term needs different things and there' ; s an intersectionality and all that and it can-- but you know what it really comes down to, it' ; s about equity, right? And it' ; s interesting having conversations with people who don' ; t quite get it and there' ; s people who make comments sometimes it' ; s like, " ; What about a space for us?" ; And I' ; m like, do you understand that any-- I can go somewhere and see someone who looks like me and understands my experience. I mean, generally speaking, pretty easily, if you have a student who comes to this campus and does not see anyone who looks like them during the day, does not have a faculty member teaching them who is from the same culture or community, to be able to have a space that a student knows they can go to. To have an experience that just physical and mental and emotional safety on a daily basis, for them to do homework and define that community will only help them to be better in all aspects of their life. That' ; s why programs like EOP [Educational Opportunity Program] and ACE Scholars and those programs exist because they' ; re-- every student should have access to the same level of services, right? First and foremost. But, if you look at certain populations and certain areas where students are from, they then need that much more support to get them to the same place that more majority populations are. So I think providing spaces like this is one step in providing that, that equity. Um, because I can imagine a student coming here and I' ; ve never really experienced it, but being like, " ; I don' ; t see myself here." ; They' ; re not gonna feel an emotional connection to the campus. They' ; re not gonna feel like going to class because why would they care? I mean, there' ; s some students who inherently they just have this intrinsic motivation and they' ; ll go to school and it' ; s fine. But you wanna have that, that community and sense of belonging. That' ; ll just make it that much more just robust of an experience for them. And the community pieces is massive. So spaces like this, if done well, and intentionally and has good leadership and the resources it needs. Because the thing is these centers-- and people joke a lot of times are placed in the basements of buildings, they' ; re placed in inaccessible areas that people don' ; t necessarily know about. If you do it well and put ' ; em in high traffic areas like the USU [University Student Union], have staffing and resources to really support those students, then it goes well. But just historically spaces like that are just under-resourced and which is an issue. So. SS: Yeah. Um, I guess in that same sort of area of, doing it right. Are there any aspects of your time at the Cross-Cultural Center that you would' ; ve approached differently if given the chance? JR: Mm. I, when I came in, because again, there was this like conglomerate of the three spaces. I would, and it was a really short period of time, but I got kind of sucked into their drama < ; laughs> ; , and I wish I would' ; ve come in and I don' ; t know if I had fully found my voice yet like if I, knowing what I know now about things and haven' ; t gone through when I' ; ve gone through now, I feel like I would be able to go in and be able to really help the students to be very-- To, you know to collaborate, but not necessarily be dependent on, I think, I wanted to collaborate with these other folks but I think there was almost a sense of like I had to defer to what they wanted kind of thing. And so probably it would be fun to go back in there now knowing what I know now and see how things would be different. But, I don' ; t know. I think that the state of where I was at the time, you learn based on where you' ; re at in life. And I got lessons, from it. I, um, there were-- I worked with my first student who I was aware of being undocumented at the time and just learning about that process and learning about that impact for her and just, I mean we literally, no one knew but she would, she would submit kind of a fake time sheet every month just to have this sense of normalcy and that nobody would question. And just, that was kind of my first, kind of opportunity to, to work with students experiencing those challenges. So. I can' ; t think of anything glaring. I was still I think pretty early and young in my profession. Um, so, there' ; s still days where I' ; m like, " ; You wanted me to be in there?" ; But, it worked out. But I think those are the things I can, I can think of. SS: That' ; s good. JR: Yeah. SS: More experience. JR: More experience. It' ; s all, it' ; s all experience. Yes. SS: Well, as we' ; re wrapping-- winding down, I know you mentioned before that a lot of people that would go to the Cross-Cultural Center were um-- JR: Asian Pacific Islander. SS: Oh yeah. Asian Pacific Islanders. JR: < ; laughs> ; Yes. SS: I, a lot of questions are raised around like these cultural centers, like the Black Student Center and, the Latinx Center and stuff like that. And should there be an Asian student center? Should there be a white student center? What' ; s your response to that? JR: < ; laughs> ; That' ; s my response. < ; laughs> ; Um, I mean, I think I mentioned it before about the purpose of these spaces. Everyone, every student should have access to support and resources on our campus. I do not think inherently based on the setup of society, students at particular demographics are lacking spaces where they see others like them. SS: [Mm-hmm.] JR: Like I said, things need to be, do, done well. You need to have the staffing. I think it' ; s always going to be met with some dissonance because there' ; s gonna always be people who just don' ; t get it. But the people who are the ones traditionally, and I know there' ; s people who may identify as the same within that center and say, I don' ; t think we should have, you know, separation or whatnot. But it depends where people are at on their identity development. And when you kind of go through identity development, you get to the point where you' ; re comfortable enough in your space and your skin and your whatever to understand that everyone else is in a different space and that' ; s okay. And that some students may be okay with it and some students may really need that space to be successful. And again, if having a Black Student Center allows one black man who goes to school here to have a physical space that he can go to feel safe, then I think that' ; s been successful because otherwise where would he find that here? Right. I think the people who ask those questions about, why don' ; t we have this? Why don' ; t we have this? And it' ; s like, I don' ; t-- there' ; s gonna always be people who ask those questions and they don' ; t have an answer for it. They don' ; t have anything to kind of back up, you know, you ask the question of, " ; Why do you think we need that space?" ; And they don' ; t have any, you know, there' ; s no research to back up the answers that they' ; re hoping to get. It' ; s just, they' ; re there-- The questions are just being asked, I think to kind of stir things up. But again, the caveat is: you don' ; t wanna just do it to do it to check off boxes. You need to do it as intentionally as possible. And I' ; m far from being an expert on how to implement that. But if you don' ; t have the resources and don' ; t have the institutional support, you' ; re only gonna be, you' ; re set up to fail. SS: Mm-hmm. Perfect. Great. Um, yeah, I like that answer. If it helps. It' ; s worth it. JR: Yep. Mm-hmm. SS: To conclude connecting to that question, uh, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces? JR: I would imagine, I' ; ll say Floyd specifically ' ; cause he has been the longest-tenured, um, director in there now. [Floyd] is probably been asked how he' ; s gonna be-- What is the Cross-Cultural Center? How does the Cross-Cultural Center kind of stand apart from the other identity centers? I think with the Cross-Cultural Center, although other centers talk about intersectionality and you know, and that sort of thing, I think what the Cross-Cultural Center can really focus on is really that multiculturalism, how all the different identities intersect and kind of can help to facilitate those conversations and understandings and that sort of thing. I would imagine there' ; s been conversations about-- do we have a space for, you know, our APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American] students? Because that tends to be the space that, that population tends to spend time. I think, there were conversations way back in the day where, ' ; cause they' ; re Kamalayan Alliance, I don' ; t know if it' ; s a really big organization now, but Kamalayan Alliance was a massive student organization back in the day, and that was primarily the students who made up the space in the center and some people had issues with it. It' ; s kind of like but this is not supposed to be just for Filipino students, but it' ; s like, who defines that? You know? It depends on who has a connection here and who feels connected. So, I would imagine-- I know there' ; s some campuses who have, I mean, tons of different affinity spaces and identity centers. And I' ; m sure there' ; s gonna be conversation about what, what is C3' ; s role in that? Um, I don' ; t know the answer I' ; m not privy to those conversations, but I' ; m sure the questions have come up of what is the space for this type of physical and identity space in the midst of adding all these different, identity spaces? Other campuses do it. It' ; s just, I' ; m sure there' ; s a lot of conversations about what is the vision and mission and kind of, where' ; s it gonna go, which can be exciting. Um, but I' ; m sure there' ; s also some pressure to be like, who are we? What is our, what is our mission here on campus? But, um, the current leadership can figure it out. He' ; s [Floyd Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center] good. He' ; s good. SS: Yea, he is good. JR: He is good. SR: Anyways, thank you so much for coming here and-- JR: This was Fun. < ; laughs> ; . I don' ; t know what I expected, But yeah. SS: Anyway, I' ; m gonna end the recording. JR: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07.xml RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ruiz, Jennie. Interview April 7, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-029
Subject
The topic of the resource
California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Education, Higher
Human rights
Student success
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-07
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Jennie Ruiz
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving image
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jennie Ruiz
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Seth Stanley
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c5940d5103570c06601179277b230b8f.pdf
6501572b27876302ad6780f8f8a675fb
PDF Text
Text
JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
Seth Stanley [Interviewer]:
This is Seth Stanley. Today I'm interviewing Jenny Ruiz for the California State University San Marcos
Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at
the University Library. Hi Jenny. Thank you for coming.
Jennie Ruiz [Narrator]:
Hi, Seth <laughs>.
SS:
To start out, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how that maybe has influenced
your work in higher education?
JR:
Oh, goodness. Okay. Background. How far do you, how do you, how far do you want me to go?
SS:
As long as you want.
JR:
Oh goodness. Well, I was born, no, um-SS:
Go for it.
JR:
Background. Um, so I'm born and raised in San Diego, um, from Mira Mesa originally, um, went to
college up at Sonoma State. For my undergrad. And did, um, got my degree in sociology. So I did a few
different majors, but then I landed on sociology cause I had a really great Intro to Soc[iology] professor
who I really enjoyed. Um, and through my time at Sonoma State, I got involved in various things. I
mainly had to work on campus just to pay bills and live and all that. So I worked in like different food
service and I worked in retail off campus, and actually told the story last, it was, what was it, Tuesday at
a session I led about my like, professional journey.
1
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
But I had a, a job on campus where I was having to put up flyers across campus and I hated it. I would
have like hundreds of flyers to post. Um, this is before lot. This is before like electronic signage and all of
that. So I, um, and I was miserable but I saw a flyer for a job in the Career Center on campus and I'm like,
thank goodness no one else has seen this ad at this point ‘cause I'm putting the ads up, so I'm gonna
apply for this job, which I did. And that kind of took me into this path of, um, of higher ed and student
affairs. It kind of opened me up into, like the orientation, you know, kind of world new student
orientation, ‘cause a lot of things were run through that area. Academic advising, I interacted with, um,
the program called Freshman Seminar there, which is similar to our GEL program here [program geared
towards first-year students and student success in academia].
So I served in various leadership roles. I actually got, uh, I was on the dean's list one semester. There,
grades were never my thing, but one semester I got on the dean's list and I got an invitation to apply for
leadership positions on campus. So that in conjunction with my job in the Career Center just kind of
launched me into kind of the higher ed. like, oh, this is kind of fun! So I was an orientation leader. I
worked as a peer mentor in our freshman seminar class. I was a student assistant [at the] Career Center.
And then once I graduated, I was looking into kind of a counseling area. Um, didn't quite know what I
was going to do and my dad, funny enough, got me a book called What to Do with a Sociology Degree,
and I was reading it one day and there was a paragraph on college counseling and I was like, of course I
could do this job for work! I had never even connected [that] the professional staff that I worked with
were doing that as a career. So that kind of, you know, launched me and I applied for grad school. I went
to USD [University of San Diego] for my master's in counseling with a specialization in college student
development. Worked in my orientation, worked in the orientation program there as a grad assistant.
And then after that, got a job at Stony Brook University in New York as a residence hall director. Um, my
friend tipped me off to a job that was here at Cal State San Marcos to be Coordinator of New Student
Programs. So I applied for that job and I thankfully got it. And, um, that started my career here back in
2006, back when, funny enough, C3 [Cross-Cultural Center] was literally, I think the size of this room
when I first started on the fourth floor, third floor of, um, no, the administrative building past, then
[named] Craven Hall. So, and then since then I've just held a variety of positions and here I am. <laugh>.
SS:
[Inaudible] Tell me more about what motivated you to work in a specifically a college setting and
specifically supporting student success.
JR:
Yeah. I think people go into higher ed or any of their professions for one or two reasons: either they had
a really good experience or they had a really awful experience and didn't want that to be repeated for
somebody else. In my case, I had a fantastic college experience. I had great mentors, I had really great
opportunities. Um, so I felt very fortunate. And I just, you know, in my work as a peer mentor in the
freshman seminar class, I was meeting individually with these first time freshmen, really working with
them and, and you know, talking with them about just life and how to connect and find their place on
2
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
campus. And I found myself really enjoying it and kind of becoming-- it was a natural thing to me. Um,
and so I think I wanted to feel that in my career, be able to really take that with me. And, one of the
great things about I think this campus, but just the CSU [California State University] is I think our
students are just so special and just work so hard. Not saying that students don't work hard other places
but that there's something about our students here. Um, there's a lot of gratitude, there's a lot of
understanding, I think, of the privilege they have of being here and getting their degree and, you know,
working with that population is really, really rewarding. So, you know, did I want-- I wanted to be that
for other students moving forward. But I just loved the feel of being on a college campus. There's
nothing like it. I now have a almost seven year-old and just, he's been able to be here since when, since
he was born. And just knowing that-- he actually said the other night, he's like, “You go to college!”
And I'm like, no, I don't go to col-- I'm not a college student, I work at a college. But he just, he
associates college with me. And that's just, he's grown up in that environment. And then my mom also
worked at USD for 30 years. So, I grew up going to campus with her and hanging out with college kids
who, funny enough, seemed significantly older than they do now. So, it was just always a part of, you
know, who I was. And so, I felt fortunate to find a place here.
SS:
And, now you're working as the Interim Director of Student Success Coaching, right? Can you walk us
through your experiences as that at the job?
JR:
In the five weeks I've been in the position, <laugh>, um, it's… it's been, it's been really great. It's actually
brought me back to I'd say my roots here because I started here at CSUSM overseeing orientation and
really working with new students and first year students and all that. So, it's been fun in the short time
I've been here to work with the team to really be creative about how we're gonna be engaging students
who are coming in this next year. We're kind of in this two… two paths right now. It's the finish this
semester, but then let's think big and creatively for the incoming class who're gonna be here in fall
[20]23. So just really, learning from the team and thinking about how impactful the work that they're
doing can really be for the retention success of the first-time freshman coming in.
So, I don't know how much you know about the program but it serves first-year students who are not in
an otherwise specialized program. So who are not in the Educational Opportunity Program who are not
in TRIO [Student Support Services], who are not in CAMP [College Assistance Migration Program], um,
ACE Scholars who are former foster youth, and then athletes or international students. So, we kind of
capture the rest of the students, so don't really have a home, you know, and we wanna be that contact
for them to kind of have that, that person they can go to for any questions that they have just about
college. Um, so it's going well. I'm really enjoying it. I'm able to be creative and think through things and
plan, which is something I love to do.
3
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
SS:
So, I know you've only worked there for, you've only been working in this position for five weeks, but,
um, could you tell me, tell me about, your leadership style and how you adapted to different situations
and team members?
JR:
Yeah, I mean, I think I can relate it to, ‘cause I was in my old position as associate dean for almost seven
years. So I've been in management leadership roles for over ten, twelve years now. But yeah it's been
interesting because I joined a brand new team and so I really had the chance to kind of see how I was
gonna adapt myself to them and how they were gonna receive me. And you know, it's funny, my first
day I brought donuts and I said to them, ‘cause this team right now doesn't have a permanent space.
They're literally working in a temporary space right now. So my first thing was how do I provide them
with a level of, you know, kind of stability and structure. So even in an absence of a physical, permanent
location, they can kind of feel that stability.
SS:
Mm-hmm.
JR:
But I came in that first day and I was like, so I haven't started a new job in a very long time. So I said, I
just ask for your grace. But I'm as much as, as reasonable and appropriate, obviously it's just about the
human first. These are all human beings who are working in a job and if you don't connect that piece
and know what really matters to these people just in life, you're kind of missing the mark. So my goal
was, and I told people ‘cause they wanted to meet with me, people outside my team wanted to meet
with me very quickly to like talk about coaching and how I could collaborate. And I said, I want the first
month to be me focusing on the team, getting to know the team, building those relationships.
And so meeting with them individually and getting to know their strengths and kind of where there's
opportunities. But I, I'd say I'm very, I'm all about personal connections and relationships and being
collaborative. But I'm also good about being, like, sometimes we just kind of have to do things and we
can't bring everyone into the fold, but I want to be as transparent as possible, communicate, provide,
make sure people are in the loop. ‘Cause the less transparency there is, people then start to kind of
worry and, you know create a narrative themselves. And so, but also humor. I like to approach things
with humor. But Yeah.
SS:
4
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
Well, sounds like you're the right person for the job. <laughter> Um, I'd like to ask, how have you
leveraged your networks and relationships to support student development and success?
JR:
Oh gosh.
SS:
<laughs>
JR:
You know, it's… so this talk I just gave on Tuesday, the Division of Student Affairs does, um, they just
started this series called Conversations with Leaders. And they finally, they asked, they asked me to
speak and I'm like, okay, because part of me is like, “You want me to talk? Oh, that's fine!” So I talked a
lot about this, but one of the benefits of my job, the job I had here when I first started with orientation:
it's such just by the nature of the job, so highly collaborative that, that set me up for how I have literally
done everything else in every other position I have here on campus. So, it had me working with event
planning, with catering, with parking facilities, with advising, with, you know, leadership to student life.
Like I work with every area on campus. And so through that, and I'm asking people to do things when I
don't have any leadership or jurisdiction over them. And so you very quickly had to establish this
relationship with people so you can-- ’cause all I would do in that job is ask people for favors. It's just, “I
need you to do this. Can you help with this?” And so, and I fast forward now, there's one of the
colleagues I've worked with, I met him my second day working, he works in advising and now I'm
meeting with him about coaching and how to collaborate. And it's just, we laugh now that I'm like, talk
about full circle and even doing training on some technology that we're gonna be implementing into the
program. The person in IT [Information Technology], I worked with him when PeopleSoft was first
coming on board. And so again, it's like “It's so fun to work with you again!”
But, all that to say, it's been so key. And I think what has been very validating is when I've come into this
job, the, the reactions I've gotten from people saying, “I'm so glad it's you and I can't wait to work with
you in this role.” And that's been really affirming and I feel like because of my relationships, I've been
able to, you know, there's credibility. I'm able to connect the coaches with people that they haven't
connected with before. And, you know, if they have a question, I'm like, ”Let me just ask this person
directly, like what the answer is.” They're like, “You can just do that?” I'm like, “Yeah, I just can chat
whoever, or text whoever and vice versa.” So what I shared on Tuesday at the session was relationships
is literally how I've gotten everything done here on this campus. It's, it's been so, so important. So I don't
think I answered the question?
SS:
No, I love that. I love that. I'm so glad to see you [indistinguishable].
5
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
JR:
It's been, it's very sweet. I'm like, “Thank you!” It is very, because especially it's people that I've worked
with forever and you know, and you just want people who are collaborative and willing to hear you out
and you can laugh with. And I actually said to somebody the other day on the call, I said, “You don’t have
to be diplomatic with me. Just tell me there’s clearly something there. So just like, tell me how you’re
feeling so we can just deal with it.” And I think they appreciated it because with some people you have
to be very diplomatic and be very discreet in how you're saying things. And I'm like, just, “I've been here
long enough. Like, just tell me.”
SS:
[Indistinguishable] So I'd like to ask, how do you approach building rapport with students and
understanding their unique, needs?
JR:
Yeah. Um, so I've had the benefit, I mean, since I've started here to work directly with students. So in my
orientation job, I supervised volunteers who are on orientation team. I supervise students who were
paid staff. Like those were my direct reports. So I was directly supporting and working with students. I
think very similar with how I just work with anyone. I… it's so hard to describe something that I feel like
just kind of happens, but I try to feel people out. You know, again, I approach a lot of things with humor,
but obviously if this setting is not appropriate right, it's, you know, I'm able to kind of feel that out. I feel
like I'm very intuitive. Like, I joke that my superpower is intuition because I can… I can tell-- if I know
someone, I can tell like when they walk in a room and be like, there's something going on or what's
happening, and I'll just kind of give a look and be like, you let me know what you need. Like, but I just, I
stop and I make efforts. I get to know people and with students, that makes, that makes a difference.
You know just being visible and being authentic. Providing, you know, sharing with-- with discretion of
course, but like my own personal life and connections and here and there. Um, but you know, in my old- in my previous position, I was working with students in some really difficult circumstances ‘cause I was
overseeing student conduct. I was overseeing students who were really in a difficult situation within
their life. Whether it's, they've had very something very difficult happen to them and they're navigating
it and how they're acting may not be the most appropriate in that setting. And just, um, I'm really good
about student[s] coming in and being like, “What is going on? Like, what's, what's happening?” And also
good about being like, what we're doing here isn't working. So how do we, let’s figure it out. So through
the years I’ve gotten very good at being direct, but in a supportive manner? Um, some, well, supervisor
joked with me, she's like, “I've never met somebody who could suspend a student, and in the same
sentence, the student, thanks you.” <laugh> It's just, it's treating somebody as a human being. ’Cause,
even if you're making a decision that's difficult, you can still do it with compassion. And humor too. I
love to be sarcastic with students, like, especially O team [Orientation Team]. ‘Cause I still have a
connection with the students who are on orientation team. ‘Cause my previous position, I was still in the
same office and I would, they'd be laying down on orientation day and I'd just be like, “What are you
6
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
doing?” They’re like, “Oh, sorry Jennie!” And I'm like, “Come on,” <laugh> “Get your, get yourself
together. Don't be laying down on the job.” So.
SS:
All right. Um, finally we're gonna get into the Cross-Cultural Center Questions.
JR:
I know this is like, this is getting us-- getting me warm. Okay.
SS:
I Really love that. Yeah. I love, like, you're just a person people can trust, a conduit of stability.
JR:
Conduit of stability. Oh, that's deep. Okay.
SS:
Could you, anyway, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began
engaging with it?
JR:
Mm-hmm. What I remember about C3 is what we call it. Um, so when I first started, we had, and I
imagine you're interviewing Alexis Monte Virgin,
SS:
Um, I'm not sure, she's not one I'm interviewing.
JR:
7
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
Yeah, he was the coordinator when I first started. Um, he's like a president of a university now. It's
amazing. So he was, he was the coordinator. The, the interaction I had with C3 when I started… because
I oversaw orientation, the Student Life and Leadership Office at the time was this compacted space in,
um, past known as Craven Hall. And so when I had on orientation days, we needed a place for
Orientation Team to debrief the day. So we'd go up to C3. So that's how, that's what I remember it as.
We'd go up to, we'd go to C, we'd be sitting on the floor. They had these big red couches, the red
couches, the red chairs, and, it was small, but it was like, it was cozy. But yeah, we would just be having
people sit on every surface possible and have our debriefing sessions there. And that's kind of my initial
like, connection and, memory of how I first interacted.
SS:
This is a really big follow up, but, how did it shift over time? And did you have any role in this change?
JR:
Um, how it shifted? So, pretty quickly after I started, probably within the first year… and I think the plans
had already been happening, was we were gonna be moving spaces. We were gonna be moving, offices
to the first floor, no, to the third floor [of the Administration Building]. So I don't know if you're familiar
or not- where Ace Scholars is now, where the Tukwut courtyard is? That's where Student Life and
Leadership used to be. So we were already, when I first started, kind of in this future planning, dream
big mode of what can Student Life and Leadership look like. But at that time, C3 was under the purview
of Student Life and Leadership. So figuring out where and how that space - because it was very
important to have a designated space - not have it be interweaved into our office, but have a
community building location for the Center.
So, I am sure that I was part of conversations because we were doing like kind of physical planning of
the office, figuring out where everything was gonna kind of be. Um, because I was overseeing
orientation, the space back then it was, I had this massive cubicle… Um and then around the corner
through a door was where C3 was. So it was an office physically located like right off of the general
Student Life and Leadership office. So, kind of talking through and brainstorming how we were gonna fit
these red couches into that space. The space was kinda like a triangle. So doing the physical kind of
puzzle pieces, you know, figuring out, um, you know, what to put on the walls and to create that space
was definitely part of that conversation. So, but yeah I don't remember the nuances, but I would
imagine because it was physically located there, we were all part of that “What does this look like?”
conversation. So, um, how it's evolved since then? I mean, it was in that space. And then, if I remember
correctly, I don't know what happened first, but a leadership program was created within Student Life
and Leadership. It's called SLL [Student Life and Leadership]. And, the idea was to create a Tukwut
leadership. Um, is it Tukwut Leadership Center? Yeah. I think I'm remembering this correctly. So what
ended up happening, I think a space opened up in the Commons Building directly across from Commons
206, I think is the room. And so the Cross-Cultural Center moved up there and then the [TLC], that
[Tukwut] Leadership [Center] space, um, kind of a space for leadership programs and student
8
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
organization meetings, stuff like that, moved into that triangle space on the third floor. So the space
when it was up there was… I mean, it was massive.
It was, I mean, comparatively speaking, I mean there was, there were windows, um, there was like a
welcome desk. There were the couches again, I believe. We had at one point, I don't know what the
timeframe was, but we had painted this like collective mural where everybody had like, it was a,
program that they had brought to campus with a muralist. And they pretty much gave us different
pieces to draw and paint. And that was put together, I think it's still up in the C3 here in the Student
Union, I wanna say. But that was up in the space and it was just bigger and more open. And I wanna say
it was up there until the Student Union opened, which I wasn't in as much conversation about because
at that time I had transitioned more into the Data Students Office-ish role.
So I wasn't gonna be under the same umbrella. But I remember the conversations about the physical
space in the Student Union and, the offices and having a balcony and having programming space and all
of that. And so you see this space now. I mean it's just, it's just beautiful. And it's with the balcony. And
we've held some retreats in there and separate kind of staff meeting stuff. And Floyd's [Lai, Director of
the CCC] great. He's always willing to host people. Um, so it's done a lot of trainings in there and stuff
like that. So, that's kind of how the physical space has evolved. It's gone a long way from this sized
office.
SS:
Thank you for that.
JR:
Yeah.
SS:
So many permutations. I love the red couches.
JR:
The red couches. I mean, that's the thing. And you probably will hear a consistent thing is this thread,
the red couches is what C3 was. Like, that is what was, you know, the signature furniture there.
SS:
9
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
Yeah. [Indistinguishable]
JR:
Oh, I'm sure you did.
SS:
Anyways, um, I knew that you were temporary temporal, sorry. Temporarily responsible for the CrossCultural Center during a transition between associate directors. Let me ask you, what led you to that
position?
JR:
<laughs>
SS:
How’d that Happen?
JR:
I don't know. You know, I think, when you're in a-- when you're leading a department right? And
somebody leaves, you're kind of like, okay, who could kind of pick things up and keep them moving
while we're doing a search, right? I think the reason I was kind of a natural person to jump into that
position and I felt very grateful to do it, was because with my work with New Student Programs and
Orientation, I had collaborated with, with Sara Sheik, who remains one of my dearest friends, we had
collaborated on the creation of a peer mentoring program. So it was a orientation, New Student
Programs and Cross-Cultural Center, um, Multicultural Programs, collaborative program. Where we
focused on pairing up first-year students from underserved, underrepresented populations. So really it
was, I forget the criteria but, primarily students of color, first gen[eration] students who weren't part of
other specialized programs, which now I think about it, I'm like, that's funny. That's the population I'm
working with again. So, because we had worked so closely on that and had, we're really working with
the staff on creating that program, and we interviewed and hired the mentors and we onboarded the
mentees and all of that stuff. I think when Sara ended up leaving, I was a natural kind of… ‘Cause I had
already been working with the, with the directors and coordinators of the other, of the other centers. I
had already been working with the staff in C3 on this program. So, it was kind of a natural, you know,
“Can you just help with this for a little bit?” And so that way we, you know, can have some consistency?
Um, so it was a fun-
SS:
10
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
Yeah, I tried to find how long you were in that position. I couldn't find it. How Long?
JR:
It was about a semest- I'd say it was about a semester, if not an entire semester. It was a couple of
months in the spring semester of… oh gosh, I don't know what year it was. [20]10, [20]11, [20]12,
around that time. Yeah, because it was before- ‘cause I moved into the Interim Assistant Dean of
Students position in January, 2013. So I would say it was probably nine [2009] or [20]10 possibly, but it
was only a couple months while we worked on, hiring and getting Floyd. So.
SS:
Perfect. I don’t wanna get too sidetracked but, I'd like, if you’re willing, I'd like you to tell me about your
friendship with Sara [Sheikh]. How is she?
JR:
God. Is this what she started crying about when she was asking about relationships?
SS:
I’m not sure. <laughs>
JR:
Oh gosh, Sara, what a special human. Um, she texted me earlier. She's like, how was your interview? I'm
like, it's at three. So I'll tell her that you all asked about her. Um, I remember interviewing her because
when we would bring candidates on for our department, you know, we'd all have a chance to meet all
the candidates and whatnot. She first off, she was not, how do? This is the diplomatic part of me. She
was not allowed to reach her fullest potential here. Her skills and her talents were not as tapped as they
possibly could have been here. She left before she should have. Um, but opportunities arose and she
had to take it. But she is, we are so incredibly different, but she is a quiet, calm, intentional, just
peaceful human being.
Everything she does is with intention and purpose. And she's one of those people in my life, and I tell
her all the time, and it's now her and her wife because they're, they're like cup filling people like you,
you hang out with them, you spend time with them. And I'm like, okay, my soul, has been refilled. Um,
not to get into politics, but this is, this is related the day of the, the day after the 2016 election, there
were various emotions. And she happened to be on campus that day. She, Sara was here, this was years
after she'd gone, but she happened to be bringing a group of students here to campus. And I told her, I
said, you are the perfect and only person I would've wanted to interact with on this day. Because she's
so good at just like being in a space with and just allowing space and asking intentional questions. But…
11
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
and then her laugh is just so unique. Like when you get her laughing, it's just like, there's no laugh like it.
Um, but she just, the students so highly respected her, and everything that she touched here, again she
did with intention and purpose. And she makes everyone feel like literally you're the only person in the
room. She has nothing else to distract her. It's a very intentional, like, you're hearing it a, a pattern like
purposeful and intentional. She's just a good, good person. So, I remember, ‘cause I tend to talk a lot
and, um, and this isn't fair ‘cause you're asking me to talk, so there's no, there's no judgment here. But I
remember we were at a, we were doing a staff retreat and I had to get used to that. she would process.
So, you know, somebody would ask a question and a prompt, and we had to give space for Sara because
Sara needed time to kind of put all of the thoughts together and process and whatnot. And so, I've
always taken that with me. But, we've, you know, she was at my wedding. I was at her wedding. She met
my son when he was, you know just after he was born. I've had the privilege to, I was there the day that,
they officially adopted their son. I was taking pictures and just, just one of those people, you know? Just
one of those people in your life that I'm grateful for our relationship here. And just the connection and
it, I, it’s one of those things where I’m like, thank you for allowing me to stay in your life. Because
there’s days where I’m like, what do I bring to you? <laughs> Because she's just so fantastic. But she
would just kind of, she would brush that off and be like you’re nuts. So she's special.
SS:
I love that. That's incredibly great [indistinguishable]. That's amazing. I know we're in the little sidetrack
here, but-
JR:
No, it's fine. it's all connected.
SS:
It’s all oral history, its all about people, so.
JR:
It Is.
SS:
Back to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you tell me about a favorite memory? Or not even a favorite,
just a memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center?
JR:
12
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
Hmm. <laugh>.
SS:
This is a little stumped [one].
JR:
No, it's not stumped. I just, there's certain things that it's like, I just immediately remember and I'm like,
it doesn't have to be super deep, right?
SS:
Mm-hmm.
JR:
I remember there was a period of time, I don't know, I think it was before Sara left, but, um, there were
ti-- I don't know if she was out, but, we needed to have physical presence in the Center. And so each of
the SLL staff would sign up for shifts to sit at the front desk of the center. And, I remember, I love
NSYNC. It's a boy band. Yeah. And I remember I was listening to Pandora at the time, it was Pandora.
And I told them, I was up there, I had like a morning shift and I said, “If I am here at my shift, you are
hearing NSYNC and boy bands.” And it just became a thing. They’re like, “Oh, Jennie's here.” And I would
just play that music. And, it was, that's the first thing that kind of came to mind. It was just kind of funny.
They were like, “Oh God, Jenny's on shift.” But it was cool because it got us physically out of our own
offices and I looked forward to that, you know, physical, that physical location change. But then to
interact with students in different ways. Um, God, there's a lot of memories. I met a student, and I won't
say his name for obvious reasons you'll learn shortly, but I first met him in C3 and I remember him
‘cause he would walk in and he was always in military gear, but like not like he, he was like within the
military, he was always just wearing like military-grade-SS:
Camo?
JR: Yeah. He had like a, this military-grade backpack, like, the combat boots and just, and he was just the
sweetest, kindest person. And I, that's he, that was the first time I met him was in the C3. And he would
come in there all the time and that's where he would hang out and we would talk about life. And he
quickly disclosed to me that he had dealt with some significant mental health challenges. And just, my
brother has also dealt with some stuff and so he and I were connecting on that and just talking about life
and making those connections. And I remembered he had gone away for a bit and then he had returned
and he was, he was having some challenges as only a couple years ago. Unfortunately he passed away
last year. But I always remember just that connection I had with him.
13
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
And I realized, you know, a lot of other people on campus had that connection with him. He was just, he
was just this unique soul. He was like an old soul. He dealt with so much adversity with mental and
physical health, but he just always came with just a presence of kindness and just sh- like sheer
gratitude. And when I… when I changed, when I moved outta my office a couple weeks ago, ‘cause I was
in that office for nine years. One of the things I was, I was cleaning this stuff out and I found a thank you
card from him. And I was like, wow, what a gift. And he had, it was after I was out of the role within
relation to [C3], but it's a couple years ago when I helped him with some stuff and it just said, “Thank
you for helping me in one of the difficult times in my life.” and I was just like, God, what a gift you just
gave me. So, um, I don't know if I would've had the chance to meet him had I not been in that, you
know, in that physical space because I know that was a space of safety for him, which was I know the
case for a lot of students, so.
SS:
Wow.
JR:
[Mm-hmm] <laugh>.
SS:
Sorry about that.
JR:
I know it’s tough and yeah. Yeah.
SS:
[indistinguishable] It's remembering NSYNC Radio, at least. <laugh>
JR:
NSYNC Radio. But I think even with him, I still smile, you know, and um, yeah, ‘cause again, he just
exuded gratitude and it, um, yeah. So mm-hmm.
SS:
Well on a lighter note! Uh.
14
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
JR:
<laugh>, I know, sorry take these down.
SS:
No, no, no. It's perfect. It's perfect. I know you only worked there for a semester, but how might have
your work at the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional?
JR:
Massively. I mean, you know, as a, as a White woman, straight CIS woman, I bring privilege with me and
I always am trying to learn and understand that what my physical presence may bring depending on the
space and I'm at right? And, the majority of the students who, who hung out in that space were, were
students of color, primarily students who were of Asian Pacific Islander descent. But, it was something
for me to be able to-- when I first got asked to kind of fill in the role, part of me was like I didn't want my
own identity to be a detriment to their development. But I realize now me even just knowing that I think
<laughs> makes a difference. That I'm aware of how my identity impacts those around me.
But there were some experiences that came up that I remember we were doing, we were doing some
activities… Oh we were doing a, an event and it was around, um, Judaism, and I don't remember what
the content of the workshop was, but Hillel, which is still an active organization for serving and
supporting Jewish students, but obviously non-Jewish students can be involved. There was some
concern about us offering this workshop and possibly providing false information. And it was one of
those things that in the moment you can get very defensive, right? You can be like, no, you know, we're
not, we're not trying to do anything to whatever. But what it had me do was, you need to stop for a
second and be-- again, the intentionality. It really taught me just you to think of anyone who could be
potentially impacted, but also leveraging the voices that you have and collaborate and pull them in.
Um, ‘cause why wouldn't have we have collaborated with folks on campus who live that on, on a daily
basis and could provide some additional you know, but I was advising students at this time and the
student was just doing what he was told. He was creating these workshops kind of in a vacuum. But it
was a really good lesson to, again, do things as intentionally as possible. Even if it means you have to
move the workshop a few weeks later, if it means we're doing it the right way, let's do that. So that was
a really good lesson and I think it ended up being fine. We ended up collaborating with them. Um, and
then just…Trying to think. I mean, just working with all different types of people and interacting with
students I probably normally wouldn't have just because they weren't involved in Orientation Team. Like
this, this particular pocket of students who worked as student assistants, within all the other centers
because there was kind of like this collective team they had of- at the time the Women's Center, the
Pride Center, and the Cross-Cultural Center, those three centers; our staffs would get together on a
frequent basis. And there’s folks from other staffs that I have connected with that I'm still in, contact
15
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
with that I probably would never have interacted with. And to be honest, they probably would never
have even-- based on who I am and how I present and probably would never have even interacted with
me. And so, it was a great opportunity to kind of make those connections. But, um, I learned some more
things just about program planning. We, we planned some pretty big events and just again, how to
honor history and culture and doing it in a meaningful manner while advising students who just wanna
get things done. And it's like, how do you balance that? So that was, um, that was a good experience.
SS:
Yeah. That's great. Um, making connections. using your voices. Moving on, could you describe, and this
doesn't have to be with the Cross-Cultural Center ‘cause I know you worked a pretty short time over
there. Could you describe a project or initiative you with that you are particularly proud of, or were a
part of necessarily?
JR:
Hmm. Geez, just so many-SS:
<laughs>
JR:
I think I can discuss the peer mentoring program. Although it was short-lived, I think for what it was. It’s
one of those programs that no matter how good of a program you have, if you don't have the resources
to continue it, you can only do so much. And so… but it was, it was really cool because it was kind of a
brainchild of Sara and then she came to me and said, “You work with new students, can we just do this
connection?” And so we really got a chance to dig into the benefits of peer mentoring and we kind of,
we created it really from the ground up. We recruited current students to be peer mentors, created that
training for them. And because of my work with O-Team [Orientation Team], who is solely volunteers,
you know, I had a training with them, a weekly training with them on, in the spring semester, and then
we had retreats. And so I was able to really bring that component. Um, and then what Sara brought was
really the, the pieces of how-- why we're serving this particular population because there is an equity
gap that our white students are persisting at a higher rate and graduating at a higher rate than our
students of color. So, and then there was research that showed that peer mentoring specifically helps to
close-- is one of the most beneficial components that a student could have to have a peer to peer
connection. So it was really fun to work with her on that and really create the curriculum, create the, the
criteria for the mentors. And then I remember we had spreadsheets and we were divvying up the, the
caseloads of like who, or not the caseloads-- of like who would be matched with certain mentors and
stuff like that.
16
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
Um, and so that was really fun. And then once Sara left and Floyd came on, um, I don't think it was a
while, but he and I had the idea to do like an overnight retreat with this program. So what we did was
we had them all come together. So we've had the mentors and the mentees, this is before school even
started, had them on a bus. We drove up to Julian [California] and we did kind of team-building
activities. And it was really-- I remember we had this, we wanted to do a ropes course and we had,
there's a ropes course at this camp. And I remember Floyd and I were brought in probably three days
before the retreat. And our boss at the time said, we can't spend the money on this. And we're like,
“What are we supposed to do?” So then he and I just like hunkered down and created like our own like,
internal team-building exercises, but we're like, “What the hell are we gonna do?” But we figured it out.
What's funny now is I think it was that year, one of the mentees is now on my coaching staff.
SS:
<laughs>.
JR:
So I've known him forever and it's really cool. And then funny enough we, well it's not funny but, we had
to buy a new car this past weekend, track me here-- and I, we go to San Diego County Credit Union
because that, we had literally just paid our car off on Thursday and that's when our car died. So we went
back to San Diego County Credit Union. Said we wanted to get a loan with you again. And as we’re
meeting with this loan officer, she’s like, where do you work? I told her, she’s like, “I knew you look
familiar!” And my husband's always like, “I swear to God, she knows people everywhere.” And she said,
“I was part of the peer mentoring program” and I remembered her ‘cause she was assigned to, I would
say was our best mentor ‘cause some of our mentors left a lot to be des-- like, “Can you talk? Can you
touch base with your students?” But this one -- and her last name was Ruiz as well -- and so we
connected on that, but it was so cool to see this student who had been in the peer mentoring program
and just being like, “I remember you!” And it was a nice little reunion. Um, but I thought it was a really
cool framework to create. Um, unfortunately the resources just weren't able to keep it going. So.
SS:
Yeah. That's cool that you saw your, your one mentor—[indistinguishable]
JR:
It was so funny that, “I know you look familiar!” When I said I worked at campus, it was funny.
SS:
17
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
Yea I Know plenty of people working in the university space currently working with limited resources.
Yeah, it's definitely challenging.
JR:
It is. Especially when it's such meaningful work like that. I mean, it's literally to support, but now I'm in a
space again to be able to do that same kind of work, which is exciting.
SS:
Mm-hmm. What is the significance of having a space that champions underrepresented students?
JR:
Um, I mean so much. And with underrepresented students, obviously that's such a large umbrella, right?
And then every group and, and community that makes up that term needs different things and there's
an intersectionality and all that and it can-- but you know what it really comes down to, it's about
equity, right? And it's interesting having conversations with people who don't quite get it and there's
people who make comments sometimes it's like, “What about a space for us?” And I'm like, do you
understand that any-- I can go somewhere and see someone who looks like me and understands my
experience. I mean, generally speaking, pretty easily, if you have a student who comes to this campus
and does not see anyone who looks like them during the day, does not have a faculty member teaching
them who is from the same culture or community, to be able to have a space that a student knows they
can go to. To have an experience that just physical and mental and emotional safety on a daily basis, for
them to do homework and define that community will only help them to be better in all aspects of their
life. That's why programs like EOP [Educational Opportunity Program] and ACE Scholars and those
programs exist because they're-- every student should have access to the same level of services, right?
First and foremost. But, if you look at certain populations and certain areas where students are from,
they then need that much more support to get them to the same place that more majority populations
are. So I think providing spaces like this is one step in providing that, that equity. Um, because I can
imagine a student coming here and I've never really experienced it, but being like, “I don't see myself
here.” They're not gonna feel an emotional connection to the campus. They’re not gonna feel like going
to class because why would they care? I mean, there's some students who inherently they just have this
intrinsic motivation and they'll go to school and it's fine.
But you wanna have that, that community and sense of belonging. That'll just make it that much more
just robust of an experience for them. And the community pieces is massive. So spaces like this, if done
well, and intentionally and has good leadership and the resources it needs. Because the thing is these
centers-- and people joke a lot of times are placed in the basements of buildings, they're placed in
inaccessible areas that people don't necessarily know about. If you do it well and put 'em in high traffic
areas like the USU [University Student Union], have staffing and resources to really support those
18
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
students, then it goes well. But just historically spaces like that are just under-resourced and which is an
issue. So.
SS:
Yeah. Um, I guess in that same sort of area of, doing it right. Are there any aspects of your time at the
Cross-Cultural Center that you would've approached differently if given the chance?
JR:
Mm. I, when I came in, because again, there was this like conglomerate of the three spaces. I would, and
it was a really short period of time, but I got kind of sucked into their drama <laughs>, and I wish I
would've come in and I don't know if I had fully found my voice yet like if I, knowing what I know now
about things and haven't gone through when I've gone through now, I feel like I would be able to go in
and be able to really help the students to be very… To, you know to collaborate, but not necessarily be
dependent on, I think, I wanted to collaborate with these other folks but I think there was almost a
sense of like I had to defer to what they wanted kind of thing. And so probably it would be fun to go
back in there now knowing what I know now and see how things would be different. But, I don't know. I
think that the state of where I was at the time, you learn based on where you're at in life. And I got
lessons, from it. I, um, there were-- I worked with my first student who I was aware of being
undocumented at the time and just learning about that process and learning about that impact for her
and just, I mean we literally, no one knew but she would, she would submit kind of a fake time sheet
every month just to have this sense of normalcy and that nobody would question. And just, that was
kind of my first, kind of opportunity to, to work with students experiencing those challenges. So. I can't
think of anything glaring. I was still I think pretty early and young in my profession. Um, so, there's still
days where I’m like, “You wanted me to be in there?” But, it worked out. But I think those are the things
I can, I can think of.
SS:
That’s good.
JR:
Yeah.
SS:
More experience.
JR:
More experience. It’s all, it’s all experience. Yes.
19
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
SS:
Well, as we're wrapping-- winding down, I know you mentioned before that a lot of people that would
go to the Cross-Cultural Center were um--
JR:
Asian Pacific Islander.
SS:
Oh yeah. Asian Pacific Islanders.
JR:
<laughs> Yes.
SS:
I, a lot of questions are raised around like these cultural centers, like the Black Student Center and, the
Latinx Center and stuff like that. And should there be an Asian student center? Should there be a white
student center? What's your response to that?
JR:
<laughs> That's my response. <laughs> Um, I mean, I think I mentioned it before about the purpose of
these spaces. Everyone, every student should have access to support and resources on our campus. I do
not think inherently based on the setup of society, students at particular demographics are lacking
spaces where they see others like them.
SS:
Mm-hmm.
JR:
Like I said, things need to be, do, done well. You need to have the staffing. I think it's always going to be
met with some dissonance because there's gonna always be people who just don't get it. But the people
who are the ones traditionally, and I know there's people who may identify as the same within that
center and say, I don't think we should have, you know, separation or whatnot. But it depends where
20
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
people are at on their identity development. And when you kind of go through identity development,
you get to the point where you're comfortable enough in your space and your skin and your whatever to
understand that everyone else is in a different space and that's okay. And that some students may be
okay with it and some students may really need that space to be successful. And again, if having a Black
Student Center allows one black man who goes to school here to have a physical space that he can go to
feel safe, then I think that's been successful because otherwise where would he find that here? Right. I
think the people who ask those questions about, why don't we have this? Why don't we have this? And
it's like, I don't-- there's gonna always be people who ask those questions and they don't have an answer
for it. They don't have anything to kind of back up, you know, you ask the question of, “Why do you
think we need that space?” And they don't have any, you know, there's no research to back up the
answers that they're hoping to get. It's just, they're there-- The questions are just being asked, I think to
kind of stir things up. But again, the caveat is: you don't wanna just do it to do it to check off boxes. You
need to do it as intentionally as possible. And I'm far from being an expert on how to implement that.
But if you don't have the resources and don't have the institutional support, you're only gonna be,
you're set up to fail.
SS:
Mm-hmm. Perfect. Great. Um, yeah, I like that answer. If it helps. It's worth it.
JR:
Yep. Mm-hmm.
SS:
To conclude connecting to that question, uh, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it
coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces?
JR:
I would imagine, I'll say Floyd specifically ‘cause he has been the longest-tenured, um, director in there
now. [Floyd] is probably been asked how he's gonna be-- What is the Cross-Cultural Center? How does
the Cross-Cultural Center kind of stand apart from the other identity centers? I think with the CrossCultural Center, although other centers talk about intersectionality and you know, and that sort of thing,
I think what the Cross-Cultural Center can really focus on is really that multiculturalism, how all the
different identities intersect and kind of can help to facilitate those conversations and understandings
and that sort of thing. I would imagine there's been conversations about-- do we have a space for, you
know, our APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American] students? Because that tends to be the space
that, that population tends to spend time.
21
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
I think, there were conversations way back in the day where, ‘cause they're Kamalayan Alliance, I don't
know if it's a really big organization now, but Kamalayan Alliance was a massive student organization
back in the day, and that was primarily the students who made up the space in the center and some
people had issues with it. It's kind of like but this is not supposed to be just for Filipino students, but it's
like, who defines that? You know? It depends on who has a connection here and who feels connected.
So, I would imagine-- I know there's some campuses who have, I mean, tons of different affinity spaces
and identity centers. And I'm sure there's gonna be conversation about what, what is C3’s role in that?
Um, I don't know the answer I'm not privy to those conversations, but I'm sure the questions have come
up of what is the space for this type of physical and identity space in the midst of adding all these
different, identity spaces? Other campuses do it. It's just, I'm sure there's a lot of conversations about
what is the vision and mission and kind of, where's it gonna go, which can be exciting. Um, but I'm sure
there's also some pressure to be like, who are we? What is our, what is our mission here on campus?
But, um, the current leadership can figure it out. He's [Floyd Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center]
good. He's good.
SS:
Yeah, he is good.
JR:
He is good.
SR:
Anyways, thank you so much for coming here and—
JR:
This was Fun. <laughs>. I don’t know what I expected, But yeah.
SS:
Anyway, I’m gonna end the recording.
JR:
Okay.
22
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Transcripts
Description
An account of the resource
Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ruiz, Jennie. Interview transcript April 7, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos.
This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jennie Ruiz
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Seth Stanley
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-07
Subject
The topic of the resource
California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Education, Higher
Human rights
Student success
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Jennie Ruiz
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07_transcript
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Description
An account of the resource
Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Amy Vo
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jennifer Ho
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer)
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.xml
Interview Keyword
This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record.
Vietnamese American identity
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
6.0 Ho, Jennifer. Interview November 16, 2022. SC027-109 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnamese American identity immigration community Jennifer Ho Amy Vo moving image HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/65ce467b74a97eb8dd1a08baae44c2fe.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Jennifer Ho, November 16, 2022, by Amy Vo. 0 29 Childhood and family In this segment, Jenn talks about her childhood and family life, first in the Chicago suburbs and then in San Diego. She also shares her family’s migration stories and how her parents met. Hinsdale, Illinois ; Chicago ; office cleaning ; Vietnam ; grandparents ; San Diego ; Pensacola, Florida ; Pepperidge Farms ; Arizona ; Midwest 0 817 Vietnamese culture and community Jenn talks about her relationships to the Vietnamese communities in Chicago and in San Diego, and how her identity as a Vietnamese American has changed over time. Uptown ; Chicago ; Tet ; Vietnamese language ; Asian American identity ; Vietnamese American identity ; immigrant families ; political values 0 1628 Relationships and silences Jenn reflects on her relationship with her parents and the silences within her family. She also speculates on how she would feel about a future trip to Vietnam. ancestral inheritance ; storytelling ; family narratives 0 2223 Vietnamese identity and personal evolution Jenn speculates on her parents identities as Americans and how they may have changed since coming to the U.S. She also reflects on what makes a person Vietnamese or not. entrepreneurship ; American dream ; immigrant women ; culture and identity 0 2534 Childhood dreams and motherly influence Jenn shares her childhood dreams, and reflects on how her younger self would see her today. She also talks about the traits inherited from her mother. Hollywood ; Sandra Bullock ; libraries ; service ; mentorship 0 3114 Grandparents and language Jenn talks about her relationship with her grandparents and the love they had for each other. She also talks about their community in San Diego and the final days of their lives. Additionally, she talks about her Vietnamese language ability compared with her brother’s language ability. memory loss ; Chicago ; Thailand ; Vietnamese language ; City Heights ; Little Saigon ; Somalians ; Ethiopians ; Latinos ; community 0 3849 Food Jenn talks about her favorite Vietnamese food. She also talks about family mealtimes and how they were affected by her parents’ work schedule. Bo kho ; curry ; IndoMie ; Kung Fu Noodles ; banh xeo ; Pho Xe Lua ; banh cuon ; Thai chilies ; Taco Bell ; Laughing Cow ; Spam ; liverwurst ; pate 0 Oral history Jennifer Ho is an archivist in San Diego. In this interview, she speaks on her relationships with her family members, their immigration stories and her reflections on Vietnamese heritage and identity in the United States.
 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:27.000 This is Amy Vo interviewing Jennifer Ho for Children of Refugees, an oral history project on the Vietnamese American experience. Today is November 16th at 12:15 p.m. Eastern time, and we are meeting via Zoom. Hi Jenn! 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.000 Hey Amy. (both chuckle) 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:41.000 I thought I’d start with your childhood and ask you about where you grew up and what you were like as a kid, or how you remember you were like. (laughs) 00:00:41.000 --> 00:02:42.000 Okay. I was born in Hinsdale, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago, in 1982. And what I was like as a kid. I was pretty—I was an indoor kid. Just read a lot of books. Didn’t do anything athletic. Pretty quiet. Yeah, just kind of a nerdy kid, you know. But with that said, not great at school. I was really good at like reading and writing but, you know, didn’t do great in P.E. or math or science or anything that didn’t have to do with like reading a lot. (laughs) So, yeah, I did get detention a lot because I didn’t like to do my homework. I could have done it, but I was kind of lazy, so my parents didn’t like that. And I think if you asked them, I was pretty rebellious, especially as I got into middle and high school. I mean, (chuckles) like any normal kid, I wanted to hang out and go out with my friends. But they kind of wanted me to be at home all the time, which I was fine with when I was younger. But, you know, they were scared of the world and scared of things happening to me. So, they kind of just wanted me to stay home a lot. So, I was “rebellious” in the sense that I wanted to go hang out with my friends and not do anything wild or crazy. Like we just wanted to, you know, watch TV together at someone’s house or play in the park or whatever. So, yeah, kind of nerdy but also, I guess, rebellious, if you were to ask them. They were just always worried about everything, especially my dad. So that’s how I would describe myself. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:03:02.000 That was part of another question I had, like how your family saw you as you were growing up. And I was wondering like if you could tell me about your family and the people who raised you and like why you think they saw you that way, I guess. 00:03:02.000 --> 00:07:04.000 Yeah, sure. So, something that they told me a lot in Vietnamese was “This is not how a good Vietnamese girl is supposed to be.” So, I was not a very good Vietnamese girl by their standards. So, I was raised by my mom and dad. My mom was the breadwinner. And they were married until I was 19, and then they got divorced. So, I had my dad’s parents around a lot of the time. My parents worked a lot. My mom owned—She owned a series of businesses throughout my childhood. But the main one was she owned an office cleaning business. So, at night, she and my dad would go to different office buildings in the San Diego area and clean them. They were custodians. And so, it was their business, but it was really my mom who did all the hard work. And my dad just kind of did what she told him to do. So, she was really the boss at work and in life. And so, since my parents worked so much, my grandparents looked after us a lot. And my grandma and my dad and his two brothers came over—came to the U.S. in 1975, August of 1975. And my grandfather was planning to go with them, and the story goes—And it’s kind of fuzzy in my head and I don’t know if this—how accurate this is. But the story is that he was all set to go with them to the U.S. But he, at the last minute, decided to stay in Việt Nam (Vietnam). And this is because he was a pretty high-ranking person in the military. And he just couldn’t leave his men behind. So, he actually didn’t end up coming until I was seven years old which is when I first met him. And that was in 1989, when I was seven. So, after he came, he moved in with us and was part of our lives and looked after my brother and me while my parents were at work. And my mom’s parents had passed away a long time ago. My—Her father had never really been a part of their lives in Vietnam. He was not a great father figure, not a great husband at all, from what I understand. So, he was never part of my mom’s life. But her mother—My mom immigrated here ; I don’t know what year. But she came here with her mother and three of her sisters and one of her cousins. But she passed away, my grandmother passed away when I was, I want to say, four years old. And my mom was pregnant with my brother. And she didn’t get to say goodbye, because she was pregnant. And my—her sisters didn’t want to tell her that their mom passed away. Because they didn’t want the grief to affect the baby. So, that’s how the story goes anyway. And I say that because my parents don’t really talk about anything from their past or any of their memories or anything. So, we—my brother and I—have kind of like clobbered together these little bits and pieces about them. So, we don’t really know, except for the little bit that they tell us. So, yeah, that’s who raised me. I mean my grandparents, I think, thought I was a great kid because I read books all the time, which, you know, to them is the mark of a smart person. I don’t know. But, yeah, but my parents thought I was a very naughty little girl. (both laugh) So, yeah. 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:24.000 I like hearing about your different parents’ and grandparents’ stories and how they came here. Can you talk more about how your parents met? And then—Because you said you were born in Illinois. But then, when you moved to San Diego, I’d like to hear about that too. 00:07:24.000 --> 00:11:03.000 Sure. So, my parents met in Florida. They had immigrated here separately. Didn’t know each other. And when they first came to the U.S., they both arrived in Florida. So, the story goes, they were—their mothers were taking ESL classes together at the community college, I think—I’m assuming it was the community college ; I don’t know—in Pensacola, Florida. And I don’t really know what happened but I, from what I understand, it was like “Oh. You have a daughter? Oh, I have a son. They should meet.” (both laugh) So, that’s how my parents met. And—Oh, you asked about how they–I think you asked about how they came to the U.S. My mom’s oldest sister, my Dì Hai (Di Hai, second aunt) she was a translator at the embassy in Vietnam. So, I think she just kind of like knew people and she was able to get her siblings on a helicopter. They didn’t know that they were going until the night before. So, it was like “Okay. Pack your bags. We’re outta here first thing in the morning.” And my mom has three—My mom technically has four sisters. She’s the second to youngest. But her youngest sister was given up for adoption when she was a baby because my—their family was just so poor, and my grandmother just couldn’t afford to take care of another person. And the grandfather, my grandfather, was just not really in the picture. He kind of came and went. So, she was doing—she was raising these four girls on a single person’s income, basically, in Vietnam. So, when she got pregnant again by my grandfather—and he wasn’t around, of course—she just kind of had to give the baby to, I guess, to a family friend. And they’re still in touch with that sister who still lives in Vietnam. But I’ve never met her. I wouldn’t know her if I saw her on the street. And my mom also said she wouldn’t know her sister if she saw her on the street. But they’re still technically in touch. One of my aunts converses with her regularly. So, that’s how they came here. There was a point to telling you about that sister. So, since there were technically five girls—yeah, my mom and her four sisters—there were technically five girls in the family. But since one of them was with her adoptive family, I don’t think it was actually ever a formal adoption. It was more like “Here. Take care of my child,” you know. So, since that sister wasn’t really in the picture, one of my mom’s cousins kind of took the place of that sister, so—when they all came here. So, that’s what I mean when my mom—when I say my mom came here with her three sisters, her cousin, and her mother. And then my dad, I don’t know his migration story. He came—his father was in the military and pretty high ranking, from what I understand. So, I’m assuming that’s how they managed to get passage here. But both of my parents came on helicopters. They weren’t boat people, so to speak. So, I think they were pretty privileged in that sense. 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:16.000 Yeah. So, after Florida, did they—or did they get married in Florida and then move to Illinois? Or how is their story like in America and moving around? 00:11:16.000 --> 00:13:26.000 Yeah. So, they got married, I want to say, in Florida. And the sad thing is I don’t really know because my parents’ marriage was so miserable from the start. And my childhood is just so full of them fighting all the time. So, it’s not like their wedding was any kind of happy memory that they talked about. So, I think they got married in Florida. And then they moved to the Chicago suburbs. And, I want to say they—So, my mom used to work for Pepperidge Farms. You know, they make the cookies. And she still—she gets a pension from them now, actually, which is kind of funny and I don’t know why. But she worked for Pepperidge Farm in the Chicago suburbs. And I think that’s why they moved there. And they moved there with my mom’s—or they moved there with my dad and his siblings and his mother. So, basically, she—it was her moving her in-laws and her husband all the way to Illinois. And then, meanwhile, my mom’s family had kind of scattered a little bit, but mostly went to the west coast. One of my aunt’s, my Dì Tư (Di Tu, fourth aunt) moved to Arizona. And then, I think the rest of them went to San Diego. And then, so obviously the weather in southern California is far superior to the weather in the Midwest. So, eventually, when I was four years old and my brother was one, we all joined them in San Diego. And by then, my Di Tu, I think, had also come to San Diego. And this is all very fuzzy, and I would hate for somebody to write all this as fact. Because like I said, we don’t really talk about any of this personal history in my family. So, again, this is just like little bits of information that I’ve gathered. So—But I’m pretty sure that that’s what happened. That’s the chain of events. 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:31.000 Yeah. That’s impressive, though, that you’re able to piece it together. (both laugh) 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:37.000 I mean after forty years of cobbling information together yeah, that’s what I’ve come up with. 00:13:37.000 --> 00:14:06.000 Yeah. So, I guess you may not have much memory of Illinois when you were like a toddler. But I was wondering like if you did, do you remember about how your parents or family members immersed you in Vietnamese culture? And you can talk more about that when you were more like aware of things in San Diego too. 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.000 Okay. 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:14.000 But I was also curious if you have any memories of things in the Chicago suburbs. 00:14:14.000 --> 00:15:40.000 Sure. I don’t really have a lot of memories in the Chicago suburbs or the Chicago area because I was so little. But the cool thing is that after grad school I moved to Chicago. And I was kind of able to revisit the areas that my family frequented. When I moved to Chicago, one of the neighborhoods that I lived in was Uptown, Chicago, which is traditionally a landing pad for immigrant communities. And, most recently, it’s been the Vietnamese community. So, if you go to Uptown, there’s a lot of Vietnamese shops and restaurants and people. And the neighborhood’s getting gentrified. So, a lot of the Vietnamese families are getting pushed out into more western neighborhoods, including the suburbs. But it’s still known as a Vietnamese area. So, when my mom and my brother came to visit me in Chicago, we kind of wandered around. And my mom was like “I remember this neighborhood. This is where we went to go grocery shopping. Your grandmother always wanted to come here and, you know, get her groceries and her jewelry and her things from this area.” So, I don’t have actual memories from when I was a kid, but it was nice to know that my mom had memories there— 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:41.000 Yeah. That’s really cool. Yeah. 00:15:41.000 --> 00:19:26.000 —So, that was cool. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That made me really happy. And then as a kid in San Diego—There’s a lot of Vietnamese people in San Diego. So, I—like we did Vietnamese things. But nothing was ever explained to me. Like we celebrated Tết (Tet, lunar new year) every year. We would go to, you know—we would go grocery shopping or go to cultural events or jewelry stores. My grandma loved jewelry, so I have to keep bringing that up. It wasn’t all real jewelry. There was like a lot of like fake costume jewelry. But she was very glamorous. And so, I always, when I think of her, I think of like the way she would take forever to get ready. Because she just always looked very put together and beautiful, and jewelry was part of that. So, anyway, so she likes jewelry. What else? So, yeah. Nothing was really explained to me as a kid. And I have a lot of memories of trying to speak Vietnamese and just being made fun of by my family, like every time. And memory is kind of tricky. So, maybe it’s just those select few times that it happened that stand out in my head. But I never really held on to the language, speaking-wise, as much as I should have. And I still don’t really try because I still hear like my grandma’s voice in my head making fun of me, like speaking Vietnamese like the robot would. Because, you know, Vietnamese is so tonal (makes an up and down wave-like motion with her right hand) and everything goes up and down. So, she would just, she would kind of make fun of me by saying, speaking sentences in like a very monotone voice (speaks very monotone), you know, which I can kind of laugh at now. But it still affects my confidence, speaking-wise. So, I don’t know how I got on that. But yeah. So, in terms of like Vietnamese community and culture, like my parents had Vietnamese friends and not a whole lot of extended family. That sounds weird to say because my mom has three sisters here, and my dad has two brothers that were nearby. But there weren’t like a lot of little cousins that I hung out with. I, to this day, I only have like—I only have four cousins total on each side, and, yeah, so not a lot of people to hang out with that were family. So, yeah, I guess I kind of always knew that I was a Vietnamese person but didn’t really start to want to connect until pretty recently, like maybe in the past decade or so, since I moved to Chicago and was in Uptown and kind of started to see myself through this lens of being an Asian American person and being a Vietnamese American person. And I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that I found myself removed from being in southern California amongst so many Asian people. And then suddenly being in the Midwest, being surrounded by white and Black people and not seeing faces like mine. And that’s when I started to connect to being Vietnamese. But before that, I was just kind of —It wasn’t something that I thought a lot about. 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:54.000 Yeah. That’s really interesting, and I think segues into another question I had which is about how do you identify yourself? And how has that changed over time? And I was also wondering about like the friends you had in San Diego and like who you surrounded yourself with and whether or not that influenced how you saw yourself or identified. 00:19:54.000 --> 00:22:20.000 Okay. Sure. So, I identify myself as a straight, cis-gendered, Vietnamese American person. I always say Vietnamese American because I feel like if you don’t have some kind of—what’s it called, that part of speech—you know, the adjective next to American. Then people assume you’re white. I mean, Vietnamese people do that too, you know. They think of American people as white people. So, I always say Vietnamese American. And I feel like the friends that I had growing up—and this only occurred to me recently as I looked back, as I reflected—but the friends that I had growing up, and definitely the friends that I have today, are all like “hyphenated” (gestures air quotes with hands) American. Like they all come, for the most part, they all come from immigrant families, whether they’re Vietnamese or Asian or not. Like they’re almost always children of immigrants. So—and I just, I think that part of our selves that’s kind of American but very not American so to speak, that really shapes the way that we see the world and the way we interact with the world. So, I’ve just always felt more of a kinship for people who are from immigrant families. And, yeah, as an adult, that’s definitely true. Yeah. I don’t necessarily have—As a kid, I didn’t have a lot of Asian American friends, even though my neighborhood was very—it was white and Asian. But as an adult, I kind of seek out people who are Asian American, because I feel like the—I don’t know. Even though Asian Americans are not a monolith, by any means, I think the way the world lumps us together creates solidarity and community. And I find a lot of comfort in that as an adult. So, yeah. I think just my sense of being is the healthiest when I’m around people who can identify with what I’ve gone through and vice versa. We just—I feel like we just understand each other better. Does that answer your question? (chuckles) 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:34.000 Yeah. I had a complicated question. Because it’s just like it’s about identity but also about community. And like I think they are intertwined. And so, you did answer the question. 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:36.000 Okay. Cool. 00:22:36.000 --> 00:23:13.000 So, what would you say your relationship is to the Vietnamese American community now? And you had mentioned earlier about how it really struck you like moving to the Midwest and not seeing as many people like you. And so, I could see how that was like a turning point and perhaps how it evolved over time. But if you can talk about that, like how you feel like your relationship has been over time. 00:23:13.000 --> 00:26:49.000 Sure. I would say that it’s complicated, my relationship with the Vietnamese American community. I think probably anyone would agree with this. A Vietnamese person is not the same thing as a Vietnamese American person. You could probably say that about anybody from any culture, country in the world. Not to say that all Vietnamese people are the same as each other or all Vietnamese Americans are the same. But there is quite a rift in our—I’ll just say it—our political values. So, as a Vietnamese American person—and just an American person of color, in general—I am pretty liberal and leftist in my values and my thinking. But Vietnamese people from Vietnam are often on the other side. I think I read this somewhere. I think it’s true that Vietnamese Americans, statistically speaking, are the largest group of Asian Americans that voted for Donald Trump. And that’s because of our, I’ll just say, our childhood—or our trauma with the war and communism and nationalism. So, that history has, you know, carried forth through today. So, I don’t like that, and I see that in my own family. But I also—yeah, I don’t like to judge people or keep people or not keep people in my life due to political values. You know, I really feel like we’re more alike than the same in that we all just want to, you know, take care of our families and have a comfortable income. Like everybody wants those things. Every human wants those things. So, I don’t like seeing that in my community and in the people that I love. Not to say that my parents have those values necessarily. So, (coughs) excuse me. So, I would say that I’m proud of my parents. I’m proud of the way that they’ve come through on the other side in terms of their struggle, not to say that there haven’t been any struggles or there still isn’t trauma. And I’m proud of my–the Vietnamese American community for, in a lot of ways, holding on to our culture. You know, I can’t speak as a person from Vietnam, but I still see that Vietnamese people are very proud of their culture and their history. And I wish I saw it in my own parents. But I like hearing about Vietnamese people who like to talk about what they’ve gone through and will share that with their children. Like your parents, like that’s really cool that your dad will tell you everything and share his feelings. So, that’s really awesome. So, yeah. I’m definitely not ashamed of being Vietnamese American, but in terms of what it means to be a Vietnamese American, I don’t know. I feel close to my culture but at the same time I’m not really. Yeah. That’s something that I’m still thinking about, as you can tell. I don’t know how I feel about it. But I definitely don’t try to hide it, for what it’s worth. 00:26:49.000 --> 00:27:05.000 Yeah. That makes sense, though. I feel like I have the same kind of feelings, too, about myself within a larger culture and like a larger culture that does have rifts in it, generational ones usually. 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:08.000 Yeah. Absolutely. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:28:32.000 So, I guess like this is kind of related. Like after thinking about and, for you, piecing together your family’s migration story, like how do you think—Or maybe it’s a little harder since they’ve never like directly told you a actual narrative about it. But like as they get further from that time in their lives and like do you see that—Well, I guess, how does like their culture and their identities as being from Vietnam, like how, does that stay intact and how does that change? And how do those narratives change, I guess? Like have you noticed when they do say something maybe offhandedly, like their comments changing or like—I guess I’m asking for you to reflect on those stories and like what you perceive your family’s narratives to be, like and how much that feels a part of your life and your story, I guess? That’s a little complicated. (chuckles) 00:28:32.000 --> 00:31:14.000 No. It is complicated but I think that’s a really cool question. So, it does feel like my story because in the larger sense of like spirituality and the universe, I do feel like we inherit stories and trauma and success and happiness and all those things from our ancestors, even if we are not aware of it. But in the direct sense, yeah. Just because I can’t speak to my family’s story, I just don’t—yeah, I don’t know. Like I—Like the times that they have told me these bits and pieces, it was only the result of someone, usually my brother who is really good about this. He’ll ask really direct questions, like questions that you and I talk about for our oral history interviews. Like he’ll say like—Like he asked my aunts, because we were all at Thanksgiving dinner—this was like ten years ago or something. But he was—he asked like “how did you get to go to Vietnam? Like logistics were involved? Like how did you and not other people get seats on this helicopter?” So, that’s how I know about my aunt working at the embassy, being a translator. Because he—If you ask my, anyone in my family, like (talks in a lower, comical voice) “What was it like to be a kid in Vietnam?” they’re not going to know. Like they’ll just be like “It was fine.” Like that’ll be their answer. (both laugh) So, you really have to get down to the nitty gritty and ask these very specific questions. And I haven’t really done that with them. And I think part of the reason is because they—And I don’t really want to talk about this on the record. So, I’ll just say they—I didn’t have a great childhood, a lot of which is probably due to their trauma and passing it along to me in ways they didn’t intend. So, I don’t feel a strong emotional connection to them. And part of me doesn’t really want to talk to them about it. So, yeah, I feel like I could ask more, and I could learn more about them and about myself. But there’s just already such a rift there between us that I just have kind of given up on them in that sense. I see them every weekend and we’re fine. But I don’t have that sense of closeness to them to where I could approach those topics with them. 00:31:14.000 --> 00:32:28.000 Yeah. I think that like we talk about family narratives and stuff. But part of why we work on this project is to hear about the overarching narratives that happen in the community. And, like you said, those stories are part of like you, and like inherited in a like physiological way even. But like knowing that there’s a greater pattern among other people as well, outside of your family, I feel like is another way to get in touch with, you know, our culture and our history as Vietnamese people, Vietnamese American people. So, I was wondering have you ever thought about, or have you ever been back to, Vietnam? And like if you haven’t, has it ever crossed your mind? Or like is it something that you’d want to do? And like your thoughts around that and how you would go about it. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:36:54.000 So, I’ve never been to Vietnam. We—my mom and my brother and I were tentatively planning to go in 2020 and that was—that didn’t happen. I would like to go, partially as a tourist because I’m just interested in seeing other places, and partially to see where my parents grew up. But I don’t think I don’t think even they want to see where they grew up. Like they just are not, from what I can tell and I could be totally wrong on this, but they just aren’t connected to their past. Like I know that if we go, I’m not going to hear stories about anything unless I ask really pointed questions. And I kind of feel like if my mom wanted to share, she would have. So, I could—If and when I go with my mom and my brother, I know that I can be like “Okay, mom. Where’s the house where you grew up? And who was your best friend? And was there a swing set you played on?” I’m just making things up. And I could ask these direct, pointed questions—my brother definitely could. But I kind of feel like she—because she was such an unhappy kid, from what I understand anyway—I just don’t really want to go there. I feel like I should go there, but I mean I don’t want to go there mentally or emotionally. I don’t mean to Vietnam. Yeah, I don’t know if I want to put her through that, and I don’t know if I want to put myself through that. But I am still curious, and I’m still interested. And I think if she really put her foot down and was like “Okay. We’re going this year. We’re buying the tickets,” then I would go. But it’s just not really a priority for me. I feel like I ought to go and if my parents pass away—I mean, of course they’re going to pass away one day—but if I don’t go with them before they pass away, I think I might regret it. But I just don’t know if I’m ready. And I also don’t want to be disappointed by their lack of reflection or storytelling or any kind of information sharing. And I have a feeling, knowing them, that that’s how it would be. My dad actually went to Vietnam with his new wife last year. (clears throat) Excuse me. And I asked him how it went, and he was like “It was fine. It was good.” (Vo laughs and Ho shakes her head and furrows her brow) And like he—I know he visited some people. He visited like one of his aunts and some of his cousins that he like knew as a kid. He showed me some pictures. But when I tried—I actually tried to ask him specific questions. I don’t remember what I asked him. But I got nothing out of it. Like he didn’t have any kind of reflection to share with me. And I think that part of them—if it ever existed—that reflective, I don’t know, muscle, that sense of wanting to know yourself or get in touch with your feelings, if they ever had that it’s atrophied. Like they just don’t think about the past. They don’t reflect on it, except to maybe think about, I don’t know, regrets or not having money or direct, today-related things like that. But they just don’t think about their pasts. So, going back to your question, yeah. I’d go to Vietnam, but I don’t know. I’m just not—I would really have to check myself so that I don’t have high expectations. Because I’m pretty sure they would not be met which is a horrible attitude (laughs) but, you know, just keepin’ it real. I just don’t think that I would get a lot out of it. Or I’d have to really prepare somehow, and I don’t know how I would do that. So, yeah. 00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:00.000 Yeah. I mean I feel like that’s being realistic. (both laugh) You know your parents. 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:03.000 Yeah. Definitely. 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:50.000 I guess that makes me curious about what they’re like and how they keep in touch with like their identities as Vietnamese people and like how they see themselves in America. Because like I feel like thinking about their past, that’s so intertwined with like their origins as being from Vietnam. So, like trying to disconnect from that, I wonder like how do they—like from what you can tell, like how do they feel as Americans and as being Vietnamese in America? 00:37:50.000 --> 00:41:52.000 That’s a good question. You know, I’m not sure. I feel like my—there’s a lot of really good—mmm, how do I say this? So, my mom and her sisters are all really tough, independent, strong women. And my grandmother was the same way, their mom. There, definitely the thing that I appreciate most about my mom is that she’s like crazy hardworking and there’s nothing she cannot do if she decides she wants to do it. So, she’s always been very strong-willed and independent and entrepreneurial. So, I think—And her sisters are the same way. So, I think as it relates to your question and their identities as Vietnamese Americans, I think there’s a sense of pride in the lives that they’ve built for themselves, in that they haven’t really had to ever—And I’m not, definitely not, judging anyone who does this because I kind of get it—But they’ve never had to be in a relationship for the sake of being taken care of. They’ve never married for money which I kind of see a lot of immigrant women doing which, again, I get it, you know. It’s expensive. And, I mean, buying a home is expensive and taking care of yourself and your kids, that’s not easy. So, definitely don’t judge people for doing that. But my mom and her sisters have never had to do that. So, I think that this American dream as we call it, which is BS in a lot of ways, has really worked out for them. And I’m very proud of them for doing that. My dad’s side is—I don’t know, my dad wasn’t the breadwinner. And he was taken care of by my mom while they were married. So, he’s not built the same way as they are. That’s all I’ll say. (chuckles) But in terms of carrying their heritage, all of them, as Vietnamese Americans, you know, I don’t know. All my—My parents and aunts and uncles all speak Vietnamese and eat Vietnamese food and celebrate all of the traditional holidays. But, you know, I’m not sure what it is about them that makes them specifically Vietnamese, other than those things, which you could say about, you know, a Polish person or a, you know, anybody else from another culture and country. So, I don’t know. That’s a question that I think about a lot, too, for them and for myself and my brother. Like what is it that makes us Vietnamese? Or what makes us special? I don’t really know. And I don’t want to just pin everything on food and holidays. Because that’s kind of just like anybody can cook food and anybody can celebrate a holiday. So, what is it about Vietnamese people or, you know, what is it that makes the culture unique or special or is a marking of that specific culture? I don’t know. This will be a good question to ask them. But I don’t know if they would be willing to answer that (both laugh) either. Yeah. I’m not sure. I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer that. That was my long-winded way of saying I have no idea. 00:41:52.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Well, that’s a hard question and like you can’t really pinpoint like a specific thing. But like—So, and then it’s hard to think about like big picture kind of things, too. But I thought I’d ask and see if you had any—what your thoughts were. (laughs) 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.000 Cool, cool. I’m glad you asked. 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:41.000 I’m going to switch gears a little bit and ask about if you had any goals or dreams for when you grew up, as you were growing up. Like what did you think about adulthood being like and what you envisioned yourself being? Like what did you want when you were growing up? And like how would your younger self feel about where you are now? 00:42:41.000 --> 00:45:28.000 That’s a good question. When I was a child, I wanted to be a movie star. (both laugh) I literally wanted to be a movie star. And I was obsessed with movies and Hollywood, and I would go to the movies and see like the, you know, the big posters (indicates a large square item with hands) on the wall with Sandra Bullock or whoever. And I’d be like “Yeah. That’s going to be me one day.” (furrows brow and shakes head) I don’t know. I don’t know where that came from, honestly. Because that sounds like a complete nightmare to me now. So, then as I grew up, I wanted to—I’ve had so many different careers before I landed on being an archivist. But they were always in the vein of like being of service to people. So, I wanted to be—I wanted to work in hospitality for a long time, in hotels, which I did for quite a long time. And then social work. And then I wanted to teach. So, they were all professions where you have to give in some way to people. And I think being a librarian and an archivist is not any different from that. So–and I think there’s so many ways in which I’m like my mom, fortunately and unfortunately. But that’s one of them. She’s always kind of dedicated herself to helping people. So, what would my childhood self think of what I do now? I don’t know! You know, I never really thought of—I mean, there was a brief period of time where I thought about, you know, being married and what my kids’ names would be. But that didn’t really last long, I think, partially because my parents’ marriage was so miserable. I just—That kind of—That dream just kind of fizzled out. I’m not opposed to any of that now but, you know, I’m forty and I’m single and have no kids which I’m very, definitely okay with, no joke. But it’s not a priority at this point. So, yeah, I think—I don’t know. I didn’t really think about myself in like career terms when I was a kid. But I did love the library. And I did go—My dad took me to the library all the time. And if he couldn’t take me, then one of my uncles would take me. So, I always had very positive associations with the library. Never thought of it as a career or anything when I was a kid. So, I guess, I don’t know. I guess now that I think about it, maybe I would have thought my adult self is pretty cool for being a librarian, I hope. But yeah. Yeah, I don’t know if that answers the question, but— 00:45:28.000 --> 00:46:08.000 No, it does. I guess I was—Like when you were mentioning the different careers that you’ve been in, that made me wonder about like—and you mentioned that your mom is also a very giving person who wants to be of help in service to others. I wanted to ask more about that part of you, and like when you first—Or like is there a moment when you first started to think “Oh. This is—I really like doing this and like helping other people.” And like how that—And like how you came to know that part of yourself? 00:46:08.000 --> 00:47:39.000 Hhmmm. That’s a good question. I don’t think there was a specific moment, honestly. I think part of it might stem from being a people pleaser as a kid which might have been a, I don’t know, like a self-preservation mechanism because, you know, my parents were very controlling and demanding. So, I think that may be part of it. So, being a people pleaser and then going into a service profession where you have to help people and meet their needs, like there might be some kind of psychological connection there. But I hope that’s not the only reason that I do what I do. So, yeah. I don’t think there was a specific moment. I just kind of—It’s just always felt right to me to give in some way. And as an adult, especially in the last few years, I’ve learned how to, you know, create boundaries and, you know, pay attention to my own needs and not the needs of the people around me so much. So, that’s helped me become a healthy adult. But yeah. This is just always what’s felt natural to me after I decided I wasn’t going to be a movie star. (both laugh) 00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:45.000 I wonder what that would have been like if you pursued that. (laughs) 00:47:45.000 --> 00:48:19.000 Yeah. I don’t know, man. I don’t think I would have been successful. I definitely would have been a brat. Like, you know, being one of those people who, you know, everyone says “Yes” to you. Like, I don’t know. I’m thinking of ultra famous people where people are at your beck and call. I don’t think I would have turned out to be a very nice person if I had people like, you know, fawning all around me and trying to meet my every need. So, maybe it’s a good thing that didn’t happen. 00:48:19.000 --> 00:49:00.000 To go in the same vein of like your path, and I don’t mean just like career path either, but I was wondering as you were growing up and going through school and your work and everything and just going through life, if you had any influential mentors or teachers, and like influential people in that way like outside of your family who really made a difference in your life? And like how you saw yourself or how you saw yourself as a person, I guess. I feel like sometimes there are people like that. 00:49:00.000 --> 00:51:50.000 Yeah. That’s a good question. I know it’s very cliché, but my mom is a very influential figure, as she would be for any person. But she’s, specifically, she’s just so tough and super strong-willed and some would say stubborn, which is not a positive trait. But I just really appreciate that about her. And so, I can see myself in her in that like if I decide to do something, like, it’s happening. I’m making it happen regardless of any perceived obstacles. Like I’ve never really said “Oh, what if it doesn’t work out.” Like I don’t really even think about that. And I think that comes from her. And her mother, from what I understand, was very much the same. Like they didn’t have a great relationship growing up. But my grandmother was very entrepreneurial too, and she had all these kids to take care of. But she was just—you know, she hustled. And she like opened businesses and had all these different like streams of income in order to bring in money to feed her kids. So, I just really appreciate and respect that from my mom’s side. In terms of other mentors, you know, I—Yeah, I had some really good teachers growing up, in grade school, who were always interested in what I had to say and what my thoughts were. And I got attention from them in ways that I didn’t at home, you know. Like they actually validated my feelings and my thoughts and my work, so really good teachers. You know, I think every person in my life that’s had some kind of mentorship role has been someone who validates me. And I think I say that because my family just didn’t. You know, we don’t do that. They were never like “Oh, you do such a great job,” or “I’m proud of you,” or “I care about you,” or “You’re great!” Like I never got that at home, ever! So, even like up ‘til today, like I have people at work that I look up to. And it’s just the same thing. Like they’ll tell me that I’m doing a great job, or they really liked this aspect of this project. Or just—they’ll have all these affirming words. And that’s something that I really need, unfortunately. So, yeah, in terms of mentors, like there’s lots of people that come to mind. But it’s always—they are always people who provide that for me. 00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:52.000 Yeah. 00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:54.000 Yeah. 00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:33.000 You also talked about your grandparents raising you when you were growing up. So, I was wondering about like their influence in your life. Like what kind of time did they spend with you? Or were they just like in the same room at the same time? Or in the same building? (laughs) And like—And then I wanted to ask about mealtimes and like who did the cooking and stuff like that. But you can start with I want to know more about growing up in a multi-generational home with your grandparents. 00:52:33.000 --> 00:55:02.000 Sure. Yeah. So, my grandparents that I grew up with were my dad’s parents. And they were really loving and caring in the way I feel like only grandparents are. So, I definitely didn’t get the same criticism from them that I did from my parents. I didn’t really get a lot of praise either. But, you know, at least I wasn’t criticized. So, yeah, my grandparents didn’t really share a lot of their stories with me either. Definitely not the kind of grandparents who were like “Oh, let me tell you about when I was a kid.” Like there wasn’t any of that. They passed away in 2019, just one month apart from each other. And it was really wild because they—my grandfather was—he had, I don’t think it was Alzheimer's. I think it was just short-term memory loss, not just, but not to the extent where he was actually like diagnosed as dementia or Alzheimer’s. So, and after a while, he just couldn’t really take care of himself. And my dad was not in a situation where he could have my grandfather move in. And my uncle—he just—none of my dad, or then neither of his brothers could take care of him. So, he went to a nursing home. But he was visited often. They did not ignore him. I just wanted to state that for the record. (Vo chuckles) So, he was in this home for like a year, I want to say. I was living in Chicago at the time. So, that’s kind of fuzzy. But my grandma was okay. And she was pretty sharp up until like maybe the week before she passed. And so, anyway, I say all this because he—They were not living together and my family didn’t tell my grandmother that my grandfather had passed. But somehow, a month after he passed, she did too. And they weren’t together. But I guess somehow you just know. And I think that’s really beautiful. So, in terms of how they raised me, sorry, I keep going back and forth. (laughs) 00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:04.000 No. That’s okay. 00:55:04.000 --> 00:58:00.000 Yeah, they were great. When I got my master’s degree, my grandpa was really happy about that. So, he told me I was number one. That was it. He’s like “You, number one.” He said it in English. But, yeah, they didn’t say much else, but I could tell he was really proud of me. So, yeah, my parents, when I was a kid, my parents worked a lot. And so, my grandma was always there taking care of us or my grandpa. And, you know, they didn’t really play a lot with us or interact a lot with us. But they were just always there, you know. My brother and I would play with each other, or we might have a friend over or play video games. He would play video games, and I would be reading a book or whatever. So, not a ton of interaction, but they were definitely around which I appreciate now. And, yeah, my grandma, a couple years before—(coughs) sorry, I’m not used to talking so much. A couple of years before they started to get ill, my grandma told my brother a story about how she—my grandfather was, I guess, in Thailand with the military doing something. And he was like in a prison there, for some reason. I still don’t know. So, my grandma had to like find passage to Thailand which isn’t technically that far. But you can’t just like stroll on over, you know. So, oh my gosh. I’d have to ask my brother what the details of the story are. And I think I’ll do that if I interview him. But basically, she just told the story about how it took like a whole week for her to get to my grandpa. And all she wanted to do was like bring him supplies, like socks and medicine and that kind of thing. But she had to like talk to all these different people and like pay people to like let her cross and like bribe them and that kind of thing. And my grandmother was actually pretty well off in Vietnam. Like she had some money. And then my grandfather was pretty high ranking. So, they were not—they were relatively privileged, unlike my mom’s family. But even with all that privilege, it was still quite an obstacle to get—to find him and get him these supplies. So, and the reason I bring it up was because that’s the one memory that I have of her telling a story. And it was because—And it was just, you know, her wanting to get to her husband so she could care for him in some way. So, that really stands out, that love that they had for each other. 00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:03.000 Yeah. That’s really sweet. 00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:06.000 Yeah. It is. 00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:44.000 So, the conversations that you did have, were they mostly in Vietnamese? And like what kind of conversation—I mean, it sounded like, because she was able to talk about her story with you, that you were able to talk with one another. But I was wondering about like if there were any language barriers. Or—Because you also talked about not feeling comfortable speaking Vietnamese with them. So, what was that like as a component of your relationship with them? 00:58:44.000 --> 01:01:01.000 So, my brother is actually really good about trying to speak Vietnamese. Like his Vietnamese also isn’t great. But he tries really hard, unlike me. So, when I say that she told the story, she was really telling him the story. And she only told him a story because he asked in Vietnamese. So, yeah, I could understand most of the story which was told only in Vietnamese. And my comprehension is actually pretty decent. But I have never really been able to converse with my grandparents other than, you know, “How are you?” “I’m hungry,” you know, like the things that you need to be able to communicate. Yeah, my dad was always around—or not always around. But, as an adult, when I visited my grandparents, my dad was always around. Like he would take us to visit them. And he speaks both English and Vietnamese. So, he always just kind of translated for me. So, yeah, I can’t really—I was never really able to communicate with my grandparents much at all. But they were able to communicate with me. So, I guess I’m the lucky one. But yeah, my brother—Yeah, everything that I know is because my brother is willing to put forth that effort. He doesn’t have that trauma the way I do. So—I can speak–or I actually read and write to a certain degree, like I don’t know, maybe to a third-grade level or something. But I can. And my brother doesn’t have that ability, ironically. So, yeah. Everything my grandparents said to us was in Vietnamese. They could speak, you know, okay-ish English. But they didn’t really. They were able to, you know, get around, go to the grocery store, like American grocery stores and talk to American people in English, to a certain extent. So, they were okay. But in the family, they only spoke Vietnamese. So, yeah, not a lot of communication with my grandparents. 01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:32.000 Yeah. What were they like? Or I’m guessing—what was their community like? Do you remember like growing up and them seeing other people that were their friends or family? And like how often did they get out of the house and like those kind of interpersonal things? And like did they ever take you places to meet those people and go to events and things? 01:01:32.000 --> 01:03:40.000 Yeah. So, my grandparents—everyone on my dad’s side, actually including my dad, they’re all very social people. My mom’s side is more introverted and quiet. But my dad’s side is pretty, pretty social and extroverted. So, my grandparents definitely had their own community of Vietnamese people. They had their friends. All the people in their lives, in terms of like, I don’t know, service people, like their doctors, dentists, etc. were all Vietnamese. And they lived in San Diego on—they lived in City Heights, which is Little Saigon in San Diego, basically. Just like Uptown in Chicago, City Heights is traditionally, you know, a landing pad for immigrant people. But it’s mostly Vietnamese people now. And there’s also Somalians, and Ethiopians, and a lot of Latino folks. So, it’s really a melting pot for, you know, all these different like crosswalks and intersections of life. But a lot of immigrant people and a lot of Vietnamese people. So, they lived in that area, and they definitely had a community. Like I didn’t really like socialize like, you know, like (laughs) go to the bars with them or anything. And I know you weren’t asking that. (Vo laughs) But there were always Vietnamese people around and they had their friends. And they had siblings who were in San Diego. So, yeah. They were always very connected. And so, I felt connected when they were alive. And I still feel connected to Vietnamese people, although I don’t know how I’ll—if that will still be true after my gran—after my parents pass away. And I know you didn’t ask that. But that’s where my mind went, so yeah. They were always connected with the Vietnamese Vietnamese community. And they were older when they came here. So, they definitely held on to that, to their culture and their heritage really well. 01:03:40.000 --> 01:04:04.000 Yeah. I’m always so like impressed or like happy for older folks who are able to like stay engaged in that way, with like people around them and like their wider community. Because I feel like that’s really healthy and like—And so, I can see why they lived so long. 01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:09.000 Yeah. That’s a good point actually. I never thought about that. Yeah. 01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:18.000 Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you about your favorite dish, since I really liked it when you asked me that question. (chuckles) 01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:19.000 Okay. 01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:53.000 What’s your favorite meal to eat? What’s your favorite Vietnamese dish? What’s your favorite snack? And then like what’s the thing that you’re able to cook yourself that you like feel—Like for me, at least, whenever I have guests or visitors over, I’m like “Oh. I’m going to make bò kho (bo kho) for them to eat. Because I make it pretty well. So, like what’s that for you? What’s your favorite thing to eat? 01:04:53.000 --> 01:06:03.000 My favorite thing to eat, Vietnamese-wise, is—Well, probably anything-wise, is Vietnamese curry. My mom makes it the best, of course. And so, I’m vegetarian. So, she makes it for me with just like, you know, the typical things like tofu, and taro, and carrots. And, I don’t know, whatever she puts in it, it’s always good. I don’t even know. And I feel like Vietnamese curry is so hard to find that whenever I go to a Vietnamese restaurant and I see curry on the menu, like that’s what I’m getting. Period. If it’s vegetarian, then that’s my default order. And I feel like it’s always good. It’s like pizza, like you can’t really go wrong. Even if it’s bad, it’s still good. So, I don’t really cook Vietnamese food, unless you count—which this shouldn’t count—the noodles in the packet. It’s not ramen. I don’t even know what the name is. But— 01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:04.000 Is it IndoMie? 01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:57.000 It’s not IndoMie. It’s a Vietnamese, or it’s in Vietnamese. And it’s been around forever. And even when I wasn’t vegetarian, I would get—My dad liked the onion flavor. And he would always eat that. So, sometimes I make that at home for like just a comfort food meal. There’s like a little packet of seasoning. And then there’s the oil packet. And then my dad would always add things like sliced onions, and like lettuce leaves, and just things to like bulk it up. So, that’s one of my favorite things to make at home. But I would never give that to a guest. (both laugh) It would be so embarrassing. I think it’s called Kung Fu. (looks to her right and seems to be looking something up on the computer) Kung Fu noodles. Oh, is it okay to Google it during the—? Yeah. It’s fine. (Vo laughs) It’s our project. Kung Fu noodles. 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:03.000 Yeah. I want to know what it is. I don’t think I’ve ever had it. 01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:16.000 Yes. This is it. Onion flavor. I’ll share my screen. I hope it’s okay. Onion…This, oh my god. This is it. Okay. Um, I’m going to share real quick. 01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:21.000 Okay. 01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:23.000 (Shares screen and the image is of a package of noodles called “Kung-Fu” on the Amazon website) Can you see that? 01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:27.000 It’s loading. Wow! I’ve never seen it! 01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:46.000 Oh, really? Okay. Well, we’ll—if we see each other at SAA next summer, I’ll bring you a packet. It’s really delicious, although that might just be my childhood nostalgia. (Screen sharing stops) Saying that, it probably isn’t even that great. But it’s the onion flavor. And I guess it’s not Vietnamese. It says “Mì Hành” (Mi Hanh) something. 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:48.000 Yeah, there’s Vietnamese on it. 01:07:48.000 --> 01:08:03.000 On it, so yeah. That’s kind of Vietnamese. So, yeah, that’s what I make at home more often than I care to admit. But I don’t really cook Vietnamese food. And I feel like it’s so labor intensive. I mean— 01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:42.000 I know. Yeah. I get that. Especially like the more popular or well-known dishes, like even making bánh xèo (banh xeo) is like, do I want to go through frying each pancake or whatever? HO: Yeah. It takes forever. My mom will make banh xeo for us kind of often. But she—and when I say “us,” I mean me and her. But like she can’t sit and relax and enjoy it with me. Like she’s just standing there the whole time and cooking and then she’ll like sneak in bites. So, that kind of sucks. 01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:49.000 I also wanted to ask, when you eat curry, do you eat it with rice or with bread? Because sometimes—or with noodles? Like rice noodles. 01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:50.000 I like it with noodles. 01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:51.000 Yeah. Okay. 01:08:51.000 --> 01:09:02.000 Yeah. That’s my favorite. I will eat it with French bread if the bread is toasted. Rice is good too. I mean rice goes with everything. So, yeah, out of the three, I would pick noodles. But they’re all winners. 01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:11.000 Okay. I was wondering because I know I’ve had all three. But I feel like everyone would have their preference. (laughs) 01:09:11.000 --> 01:10:23.000 Yeah. Definitely. Noodles are my preference, period, in life. So— And then food-wise. Okay. (holds head in her hands) I have to say, in Chicago, there was this restaurant called Phở Xe Lửa (Pho Xe Lua), and some people call it “PXL” for short. And they had—The lady that ran it, or who owned it, trained with Vietnamese monks. So, there was a really extensive vegetarian menu. And I loved that place for that reason. Everything was so good. And the thing that I would get the most there was a—(whispers to herself, scratching her head) oh god—it was not bánh ướt (banh uot), but something just like it. So, like I guess white people now call them rice rolls. But just the flat rice layers that are—Oh, there’s a name for it. What is it? And they’re just kind of rolled up and they’re just—you just put the nước mắm (nuoc mam) on them, and they get really soggy, and you eat them with chả lụa (cha lua) and all the veggies. I’m kicking myself because I can’t remember the name. 01:10:23.000 --> 01:10:25.000 Is it—It’s—is it bánh cuốn (banh cuon)? 01:10:25.000 --> 01:10:26.000 Yes! 01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:27.000 Oh, okay. 01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:29.000 Yes. Banh cuon. Yes. That’s it. 01:10:29.000 --> 01:10:31.000 Yeah. I love banh cuon. 01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:38.000 Yeah. (Vo laughs) It’s always—Yeah. I like wet foods. So that one always hits the spot. 01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:47.000 Yeah. I always think of it as like a brunch meal too. I don’t know if that’s just how–when we would eat it, like for brunch on the weekend. 01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:49.000 Oh! Interesting. Okay. 01:10:49.000 --> 01:11:11.000 Yeah. Banh cuon. Yeah. Well, I guess, do you have any other thoughts about food? (both laugh) Or like mealtimes or cooking or like any things that your family did together with food? 01:11:11.000 --> 01:13:26.000 Um, I think the thing that stands out to me most in terms of family mealtime is that for a long time my mom owned a little chain of stores at the mall. So, she sold like formal wear for children for like weddings, or quinceañeras, or just, you know, little tuxedos and dresses for little kids. So, that kept her very busy, and my dad, it kept him very busy too. And so, for a long time we would just go to the grocery store once a week and buy like frozen meals to pop in the microwave to eat at home because they were too busy to cook. My mom was too busy to cook. So, yeah, my mom talked about that not long ago and like expressed how much she regretted that she had to put us through that, which was nice of her to acknowledge. And I don’t think it was the worst thing. Like I get it. She was busy. So, but yeah, that stands out to me a lot. So, I think that’s it. Yeah, my grandma cooked, but not often. And she would make soup a lot. Like she would make phở (pho)and other soupy, noodley things. And what I remember about her is two things. She would always, whether it was at home or a restaurant, she would get like the fresh chili peppers, (indicates something about two inches long with her right thumb and forefinger) the red ones—like I think they were Thai chilis—and she would slice them up into little slices. They were fresh and she would slice them up and add them to her soup. She liked hot food, like spicy food. So, she—if we were at home, she had those ready. And then if we were at a restaurant, she would request them. And then—And she would always either have scissors or—No! She always had scissors at home, and if we were going out to a restaurant, she would keep scissors in her purse so that she could cut the noodles in the restaurant which I always thought really embarrassing. But now, as an adult, I’m like yeah. You’ve got to take care of your own needs. So, that’s awesome. (both laugh) 01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:53.000 I think people also don’t get like scissors are actually a very important part of eating in that way. Like I’ve done—I’ve cut things like in the kitchen or while I’m eating, with scissors. And other people who aren’t like Vietnamese or Asian even like are like confused, or aren’t used to it, I guess. Yeah. 01:13:53.000 --> 01:14:05.000 Yeah. I feel like, yeah, I’ve never actually done that myself. I don’t have kitchen scissors. But I definitely appreciate how handy they are. So,— 01:14:05.000 --> 01:14:58.000 I like that story about your grandma. Thank you. (both laugh) Can I ask another—one more question—about like are there foods?—because, for me, I’ve experienced this where they’re American foods that kids love but like, for me, it was very foreign. And so, it was like an experience that I sought out. I was like “I want to try this American food.” Yeah, is—Do you have experiences like that? Like growing up with eating a certain type of food but then like your peers experience like different types of food. And then you don’t know, like you aren’t able to connect to that. Or like then you’re like “I want to try that.” Or—Does that question make sense? 01:14:58.000 --> 01:17:17.000 Yes. It makes sense. I’m trying to think of an answer. That’s a good question. I, you know, I think–I don’t think I have a lot of that because my parents worked so much and we always had that frozen food stuff. So, I, you know, ate like lasagna or Marie Callendar’s or those things. And then sometimes like McDonalds and that kind of stuff too. The only answer I can think of is when my dad—was it my dad? I can’t—I think it was actually my best friend in high school. Her name was Lisa. She was white. And she—we got these passes to go off campus for lunch. So, it felt like, you know, the big time, right? Like you were allowed to go off campus for lunch as long as you come back. So, I think on one of our first times doing that, we went to Taco Bell. And I had never been to Taco Bell before. I don’t remember what we got but I remember loving it and wanting to go there as much as I could after that. Like I had never given it a second thought. But then it’s like the world opened up before me. So, yeah, so then I took my dad and my brother there, and they loved it too! (both laugh) Um, that’s all I can think of. Yeah. I feel like we went out to eat a lot, my family and I did, because my parents were just so busy. So, we didn’t really have another choice. And then my grandma, I guess she could have cooked. But she didn’t really cook much, and I don’t know why. I’m sure she would have, but I don’t know why she didn’t cook that much because you think of a grandmother like always cooking, right? But I don’t really have memories of her cooking for us. She also didn’t really get along with my mom. So, that might have had something to do with it (shrugs) looking back. Maybe my mom didn’t want her to or something. But yeah, food-wise, I feel like we were—yeah, my parents always preferred Vietnamese food first. But we were—I feel like we were pretty adventurous compared to other immigrant families just because we didn’t really have a choice. So, yeah. 01:17:17.000 --> 01:17:38.000 Yeah. That makes sense. Because I was thinking of like cheese kind of based things, because a lot of people in my family don’t eat cheese, because it’s like not really part of Vietnamese cuisine. So, like if there’s cheese, they won’t eat it. Um, my dad— 01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:40.000 Even Laughing Cow? 01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:54.000 —yeah. My dad loves cheese, though. So, I was wondering if there’s stuff like that that influenced your experiences of like things that are American that you didn’t eat ‘til later. 01:17:54.000 --> 01:18:13.000 My dad—I don’t think this counts—but my dad really liked liverwurst, like paté. But it was always like the—what brand was it? It was like an American brand. It wasn’t Asian or Vietnamese at all. And he would eat that a lot. And he liked Spam a lot too. 01:18:13.000 --> 01:18:15.000 Oh, yes. (laughs) 01:18:15.000 --> 01:18:40.000 Of course. And he would just take whatever ingredients and like put them all in a baguette. And the Laughing Cow, of course. Yeah. I don’t know. Nothing stands out other than those things. So, after I found out what liverwurst is, I stopped eating it. (Vo laughs) Even before I was vegetarian. I was like “Nope. Not eating that anymore.” It was really good though. (chuckles) 01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:45.000 I know. I remember—I know this is your interview, but— 01:18:45.000 --> 01:18:47.000 That’s okay, no. (shakes head) 01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:55.000 When I was a kid, we loved eating paté on like toast. And my brother called it quẹt quẹt (quet quet) because you kind of like smear it. (motions smearing with her right hand) 01:18:55.000 --> 01:18:58.000 Oh. (laughs) 01:18:58.000 --> 01:19:12.000 And then like we had friends over, and we were like “You want a snack?” And then we—and my mom told them what it was, and they were like “Oh my god! Don’t want it.” But yeah. 01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:14.000 Was that embarrassing? 01:19:14.000 --> 01:19:35.000 I don’t know. I was just like—I guess it was a little embarrassing, but since I still think about it (both laugh) from time to time. But yeah, well was there anything else that you wanted to talk about before we wrap up? 01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:40.000 Mmm, no, nothing comes to mind. This was a good interview. Thank you. 01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:44.000 Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you for your time. 01:19:44.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Of course. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.
 ; 
 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.
 ; 
 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.
 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.
 ; 
 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.
 ; 
 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.xml HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ho, Jennifer. Interview November 16, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Jennifer Ho is an archivist in San Diego. In this interview, she speaks on her relationships with her family members, their immigration stories and her reflections on Vietnamese heritage and identity in the United States.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-109
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-11-16
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jennifer Ho
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Amy Vo
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Chicago (Ill.); San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
A language of the resource
English
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Children of Refugees
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/84ae61e13edb5b77f7c9e0f20e8a3871.pdf
b228deb516bbe3d45948b5f1f70a4926
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Transcripts
Description
An account of the resource
Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ho, Jennifer. Interview transcript, November 16, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Jennifer Ho is an archivist in San Diego. In this interview, she speaks on her relationships with her family members, their immigration stories and her reflections on Vietnamese heritage and identity in the United States.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jennifer Ho
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Melissa Martin
Amy Vo
Jennifer Ho
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-11-16
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Chicago (Ill.); San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Jennifer Ho
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16_transcript
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Children of Refugees