10 10 181 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d2e38ab1e684ee0573d588a35324c907.pdf a210bb7c0cb693c64cc55b3d104d1376 PDF Text Text JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Ayana Ford: Today is April 6th, 2021, at one-o-eight PM. I am Ayana Ford. I'm a student at Cal State San Marcos, and today I am interviewing Jake Northington for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Special Archives (Special Collections). Mr. Northington, thank you for being with me today. I’d like to start by talking about your childhood. When and where were you born? Jake Northington: Oh, I was born in Illinois. I'm from East St. Louis, Illinois. That's where I grew up. And I moved around a lot as a child. I was adopted quite a few times and that allowed me to stay in a lot of cities. A lot of States, I went to quite a few elementary, middle schools, high schools. I went to four or five different high schools and I kind of moved around a lot, so, and ended up here in California. Ayana Ford: Wow. So that actually brings us to, our next question. How did you come to understand Blackness? Because I know by moving around to different places that would change your understanding. Jake Northington: Well, the city I'm from is 97% Black, and it's been that way for hundreds of years. So East St. Louis is in Illinois. Most people have never been there. And then people have heard of St. Louis, Missouri. Well both sides of the city is divided by the Mississippi River. And East St. Louis was a town established by Black people and it's been Black forever. And one of the major things that happened in that city was during the industrial revolution, like you've got a big race riot that happened in about 1918 that decimated the city, the East side of the city. And it's been decimated like that since then. And many of those places and the industries that were burned down are still burned down today. So even when I grew up, a lot of those places was still burned down and dilapidated just, it stayed like that for so many years and it's been a place of poverty, but within that ninety-seven plus percent of the population is Black. So growing up, I got to see Black people drive cars, be the principals, be police officers, drive the city bus, you know, they're driving Greyhound buses. They were mayors, city council people and all of these things that even the person delivering the mail – the person delivering to the doors and all of the shops, it's just a big group of Blackness. And I got to see Blackness from all different levels of economics and education. So I'm in an area where I get to see Black people from economically the lowest level and economically a higher level. So being able to see Black people among those different class groups and those different educational groups, it allows you to see people for who they are. When you can only see another group of people living wealthy and rich, it could kind of skew your view of that entire group. So, because I grew up in an area like that, I didn't get a skewed view of my own people. Ayana Ford: So do you feel like that helped you become more comfortable with yourself as a whole? Jake Northington: I was never uncomfortable. I would answer it that way. So I never had to get to a point to become comfortable being Black. My teachers are Black. So when I grew up, there was no such thing as being the only Black kid in class that wasn't a part of my upbringing. Everybody in class was Black; teachers, middle, the principal, everybody, the Superintendents. So that wasn't an issue growing up so that every Black person there is practicing Black culture. The food, the music, the art, the corporations, the festivals, everything that's happening in a park, every holiday that we celebrate, everything was full. And so these are not things I had to pick up later in life or learn later in life. Transcription by Ernest 1 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Ayana Ford: So how has the Black social justice and activism such as a civil rights movement, feminism, the Natural Hair Movement and the Black Lives Matter protest affected you? Jake Northington: Oh, well, so the civil rights movement definitely affected us. But in a way that's a little different for me because I--you got a lot of integration. You got a lot of Black people in areas they weren't, they were not allowed to before. You started to see, maybe an area of homes where you'll now have a few more Black families that never existed before, or you'll start to see Black people being allowed in certain malls or restaurants. Those things start to become a lot more commonplace, but growing up in East St. Louis, that doesn't matter. That didn't change. So you could--the people there were concentrated. So we didn't get to see all these different races of people and other cultures. We got to sit together, build together, fail, and grow together and go through all of the tribulations of life together. And you could get your answers from your own group of people. You could get--you know, you may get chastised, you may get corrected, you may be taught to do this, taught to do that. And it gives you an influx of empowerment. Like if I reach out and I want to know like, Ooh, what happened with Black people 50 years ago? I don't have to go to the local library and read it. I could find someone 70 or 80 years old that I can just talk to or ask what did Black people go through during the civil rights? These people are right here in front of me every day, they went through the civil rights. I don't have to go to a library or a com(puter) or something like that. And I think that's what people who grew up outside of a Black city, they may have to do some of those things. Well, I did not. So the civil rights effect on me didn't come with a lot of integration. The civil rights effect on other people, they may have been forced those to go into a lot of integration. And with that integration, they could have lost some sense of culture or some of the things that I was afforded to have, growing up in a predominantly Black city, going to a Black middle school, elementary, high school and things like that. So, the civil rights movement, you know, it had an effect as far as activism. Being at a Black school, we always celebrated Black History Month. Like throughout the year, we did things such as we had to give book reports or oral reports on every single Black person in history. And most of the time, these were all the Black people during the civil rights movement. So all eighteen or twenty of us, in second grade class, we'd all have to give out oral report and dress up as that person. So--and this is something I brought later to San Marcos as a student--and that's why I got that from. Being able to do that connected us to it. And it allowed us to see what we had gone through as a people, where we're currently at in East St. Louis, and then to kind of (technical difficulties) cast. That's what it allowed for me, that particular social movement. But then you get the, uh, the Black Panther Party movement, things like that. We got to see a lot of these people actively in the streets protecting other Black people. And some of these things were available in East St. Louis as well. So a lot of chapters that have Black Panther Party, some of those people came from Chicago and they will come down and then they would help protect or teach people different protective measures or teach more about history. And, that those two movements within my whole community, as far as people wanting to know more about history, people wanting to know what can they do actively in their community to correct some of the things that are issues in their community. So those two things had a great effect on my life and my upbringing. Now, when you get to some of the other movements, not as much, because I'm not actively involved in newer movements, but when as a kid, these other movements really had an effect on my mindset and give me a reason to look at Black people as a whole group of people and not just the people here on my street, the people in my school, the people in my city, you know, it allowed me to Transcription by Ernest 2 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 open my mind up to Black people on the planet. And having Black teachers all of through school before leaving, East St. Louis, having those Black teachers in all of this, this Black community as my baseline, once I left and going to these other cities, I was already, you know, in a strong understanding of who I am and come from. Ayana Ford: So, I imagine that's a big shift for coming to San Marcos. Did you come directly from (East St. Louis to) San Marcos? So, did you go straight to San Marcos after that? Or no? Jake Northington: I came here for work, so I completed my job. I was in the military after I completed my time in the military. It's right here. And you know, it was right down the street. It's like ten miles down the street, the military base (Camp Pendelton). So in this case, I wasn’t trying to move again with so, so much moving going on early in my life. I wasn’t interested in continuing to move. So I just chose to apply to the school (Palomar College). It’s the only school I applied to. Ayana Ford: Really. So was it--so you said you came, so you came from the military, so it was, it wasn't a really big shift coming from the military to the San Marcos meaning, culturally, or was it an easy shift because you got to be around a bunch of different cultures? Jake Northington: Yeah. So, I would say, no, it wasn't a difficult shift because even in the military, you're around every state and multiple countries. A lot of people from other countries joined the military to get citizenship and stuff like that. Even within the military, you're getting half of the states. At one job, half of the states are covered with people from different states. And I was in the Marine Corps specifically. There's not a lot of Black people in the Marine Corps. Most of the Marine Corps is non-Black so we already around other people and dealing with other peoples’ culture and stuff like that. And then prior to joining the military, I had already lived in Dallas, Texas, and I lived in Chicago. I lived in a bunch of other cities. So I was engaged in (technical difficulties) privy to being in the first university I went to. I went to college right out of high school and didn't work out too well, so I wasn't prepared for college in a way that I needed to be. That's kind of how it happened from the city I come from. It really doesn't prepare you for college. A lot of the effects of the, what is that called? They put a thing out in the eighties that was no child left behind policy. So it kind of turned all of our testing into multiple choice. And that was no more fill in the blank (unclear) of measure. So it was just pass or fail and they were just trying to pass everybody. So a lot of people were not prepared mathematically, through English, or through science and reasoning to even walk into college. It did a lot of us that disservice. So I had to take a little bit of a U-turn in order to come into the university and be successful. And that U-turn was the military. And that's what brought me to California. And then after the military, this school's right here. So that's why I chose San Marcos. There's no special reason (otherwise). Ayana Ford: So this--you think this, this U-turn helped you prepare for your coming to San Marcos with everything going around with so many different cultures that are entering the military? Jake Northington: Well, I mean, again, I had already faced it before the military, ‘cause I'd already been in universities and I'd already live in other cities. So I was already prepared even Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 3 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 before joining the military. That's why I had no issues. So it's just a repetitive understanding that all of this is not East St. Louis. And everything I learned in East St. Louis, it doesn't necessarily show up everywhere, you know, it became more disheartening. So it wasn't a shock. It was more disheartening that outside of East St. Louis, I didn't go to a lot of places where they had a large congregation of Black people living at home, going to work, having all of these big family events and things like this. So that was more disheartening. I wouldn't call it a culture shock because this is still America. So I know I still live in the United States. So (laughs). Ayana Ford: So what was your first impression of San Marcos as a Black student? What was your first impression? Jake Northington: (unclear) That I didn't see any other Black students. The first impression was where are all the Black students at? Like, where are my people at? And now you walk around on a regular basis, every day you may see eight Black people. If you're on campus for four or five hours, you might see eight black people. And half of those are faculty and staff. So almost never saw the Black students, especially in my, uh, my study. I was in Visual and Performing Arts. And I think the entire time I only saw one other Black student in my class. Ayana Ford: Oh my goodness. So, can you, what, where did the student--(technological difficulties)--Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. So you were, you were, were you at the (unclear), grand opening, Black Student Center’s grand opening? Jake Northington: Yes. Ayana Ford: So you got to see it come to be. How do you think that it impacted your involvement on campus? Being able to see this come to be? Jake Northington: Well, I already knew it was happening because I was a part of the, some of the other students who were working to make it come about. So before I got to the school, I was already coming here and being active because the first school I went to here was Palomar. So I went to Palomar College, which is the junior college across the street from the school. So I was already going to Palomar College. And while at Palomar College, I would come to San Marcos or some of the events and, you know, they put out a lot of different events that they were doing, and I would come to some of them, during kind of the U-hour (University Hour, noon to 1 pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays, a time devoted to student mingling and interaction) on campus. So I was able to witness some of these things, and then there were groups of students trying to start the process of getting a Black Student Center. So these people were already doing this. And I'm quite sure this has been tried before as well, but this time it became successful. So I'm sure that's not the only time the Black student body asks for a place like this, but it was just the right group of students this time. And that was the very excellent Black students. They pushed it and they put all the measures in place. And then I just got involved immediately because when I got to the campus and said where all the Black students, I got involved immediately, I saw a couple of Black students that were out here really active and trying to make things happen. And I'm a person like that. So I just attached myself to some of those people and did what I could with this entire project. So I was along the lines of the project and I kind of added here and there wherever Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 4 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 I could. And that was, uh, that was just a good group of students that were pushing to get their center. And I just happened to be one of them. Ayana Ford: So to backtrack, were you in-Jake Northington: So I know I, (technical difficulties). Say what? Ayana Ford: Oh, I'm sorry. You cut off. Jake Northington: Oh, okay. Ayana Ford: To backtrack: so were you, were you in any activities or anything that got you to be able to connect with more Black students on campus? Jake Northington: Yes, because when I first got here and I said, where were all the Black students immediately, I would stop people and be like, Hey, where's the BSU (Black Student Union) meetings held at where's this where's that, you know, you have to have a BSU! I mean, you got more than 10 Black students. You got to have a BSU. I would think, you know, so I found the people going to the meetings. I became a member immediately, you know, I started paying my dues. I went to every meeting and then I just kept asking for more. So I don't like things the way they are just because, you know, I think we deserved more than what we were getting. And then a few students felt the same. And then we decided to keep pushing for more, you know, every one of us has a part to play. So while some people wanted to operate, you know, the BSU, some people want to operate, like they had a Black Christian Ministries. Some people went other ways and then everybody has a part to play, to keep growing the Black community on campus. I wanted to find out things I could help do to grow the Black community on campus. And then this avenue of having a Black Student Center became one of them. So I just jumped in right into that and got involved. And that's what kind of segued me. So getting involved in the BSU segued to getting involved in this Black Student Center project. Ayana Ford: So, what do you think the role of the Black Student Center, Union was played with the Black Student Union (Center)? Like how did you, how did, what was your, did you have like a administrative role or were you just a student? Jake Northington: As far as the Black Student Center? Ayana Ford: Union. Jake Northington: Union? Oh, the Black Student Union, I was just a member. And then at one point I did run for one position. I didn't win it though. Somebody beat me out, but I did run for one position in one semester. But other than that, I was pretty active. I helped design some of the logos that they had for merchandise, I helped set up and break down events, things like that. So I was never an official officer, but I did the same thing many other students did, you know, so I didn't do anything special, but I just gave all the support I could. Showed up to every event I could and helped set up and helped put on some of the events, you know, just like everyone else. But then the activism within the Black Student Center project, this is when it started to kick up a little more, because I did other things on campus. I was a part of the College is 4 Me seminar at that time for the high school students trying to come to college. I was able to speak on some of Transcription by Ernest 5 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 those panels and then this led to other opportunities. So then I started to get selected to be involved in other occasions. So then I started to go to ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) meetings on the regular. Every week I would go to ASI meetings, take notes, say whatever I needed to say and try to transfer some of the things that the Black students were asking for in BSU meetings and try to bring some of those things and present them ASI meetings. If I could. And also sometimes those things happen and then them extended meetings. And just any meeting I saw happening on campus--they used to do a check-in with the vice president. They used to, they had all these open forums, I would go to everything. So that's the way I started and supplanted myself, as far as trying to help create some change and just attach myself with groups that were creating change, or sometimes create our own group to create some change. So then when, you know, as we got further and further along with Black Student Center, these other students were doing their part to start the resolution (for the creation of the BSC). And then I was just one of the students that came along to make sure we spoke up in support of it during some of those ASI meetings. And once it got voted on and it all got agreed to, then we had to have students to work there. And we also had to have people come interview for the position to be the director. So along those lines, I became even more involved. So I was selected to be one of the eight people to sit down and have luncheons with the candidates for the position. So I was able to do that. And we were, you know, in a conference room and we had to do some little, like just a little enclosed meeting and luncheon and kinda see what each person was standing and what they offered. And then I went to every one of the people's presentations to be the next candidate. And then I kept doing that with other positions as well that were around the campus. So that was another part I played. Also, we all sat down as a Black Student Center--as a Black Student Union, a lot of us sat down to come up with the name of the Black Student Center. So there's many names thrown out there. So in that it's called the Black Student Center, I helped vote for that too. You know, some students voted for that and I was just one of those, some students voted for different names, and this is a name that everybody kind of agreed to settle on. We also had to put in evaluation sheets for the presentations we liked the best from the different candidates. So I was able to do that as a student and able to do that as one of the eight people selected to be on the little small group panel. And I was the only student on that (panel). Everybody else was a staff member, but I was the only student. So then from that, I got hired. So I was one of the first people to get hired into the Black Student Center. And I was hired there. And then I actually designed the logo that they still use today. You know, I'm happy they still use it, but I'm like, it's been a couple of years. I was surprised they haven't gotten somebody to change it, but that's nice that every time I see it, I just remember. I did that and they--there's been like a lot of merchandise and just, you know, lapel pins, t-shirts and the space. All of the photos for the first two or three years, I took them all. So at that grand opening, all of the photos of the grand opening, a lot of those things you see as for a lot of the activities from the first couple of years, different video clips and stuff like that, you know, a larger majority of those things I did. There was a few other people that took pictures and videos, but the large majority of it, I did. That was one--that was my position when I worked in the Center, I did a lot of media and a lot of archiving. Ayana Ford: Wow. So what did you think that the student, staff and (faculty) involved in the creation of the Black Student Center felt like they needed? While you were in the meetings? Jake Northington: Well, one is we needed a space that was our own. That's just number one. I would think all groups need a space that's their own when you're coming into a university system. Because we're going to be here for awhile. You're going to come to class, you're going to Transcription by Ernest 6 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 be here for six, eight hours a day. Some people are spending ten to twelve hours like me. I was one of those students that was on campus ten to twelve hours a day. You are a student who works on campus. So now you're taking your classes and your work here. You have to have some level of comfort and security. And then all of these things occurred during the height of a lot of shootings and murders of Black people that we all were able to witness over the course of these same years. So we're talking about the center opening in 2017, but this comes off the backs of the Sandra Bland murder, the Trayvon Martin murder that Tamir Rice murder, the Mike Brown murder all the way back to back to back, leading up to right before we got a space. So all the anxiety was constantly building amongst Black people, just in the country and you know around the planet. So with that high level of anxiety, a lot of Black students just felt a little more uncomfortable or insecure being on a college campus, that maybe they didn't feel as much support as they had once said they needed. So, having the space is something people asked for, because now we can have programs specifically for Black people that didn't exist prior, we could create support groups. We could have fellow mentoring from other Black students to Black students or Black faculty to Black students. We could have a hub or a home on campus where we could just relax and take all the stresses of being a Black college student or just a Black citizen in the country. So it becomes a place of that. So you get a little, a piece, a little home feeling, and a reinvigoration of why you're here. (technical difficulties) Ayana Ford: Can you hear me? Jake Northington: Yeah. Yeah. Ayana Ford: I'm sorry. You cut off again. I'm so sorry. So did you feel in the beginning, did you feel any pushback for the creation of Black Student Center in the upper--from people above? Jake Northington: Oh yeah. There's tons of it. I got it all printed out. People physically looked at us and gave us nasty looks walking around. This is faculty, staff, and students. Would physically look at us in a way of like, You don't belong here. So, before the center open Black people will be walking around sporadically, going to classes or something like that. And we were not grouped up as much. The only time you would maybe see a group of Black students is on the way to the BSU meeting on the, on the way back from the BSU meeting. And that may be the only times you can see groups. Once we get a Black Student Center, it's now a constant that everybody on campus is now constantly able to view, look at these groups of Black students right here around the center of campus at the USU (University Student Union). So this was a new thing for the campus. So we started to get nasty looks. We got a lot of students disagreeing with us having a space. We got people saying that, Where's the white student center? We had a few people even saying, I want my student fees back from you, (technical difficulties) my student fees going to the Black Student Center. Some people said that the Black Student Center is separation and segregation. All of these things were placed on the school's website, the school's Facebook page, the school's Instagram page. And, you know, the school had to do their job of correcting some of these things. But this was the feel of a lot of students, faculty, and staff, and some of them voiced these things. So we did get a lot of backlash. Ayana Ford: Do you feel like the school did a good job on responding to that, to the backlash that you guys received? Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 7 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Jake Northington: Ah, I mean, I would say the school did what they could because, I mean, if somebody states in opinion like that, that they don't want their money going to this, that's not an offense. You didn't break the law. You didn't. I mean, so what could the school do besides, Okay, we don't enforce, or we don't support that type of rhetoric so we'll take it down. I mean, I would say the school did that much. That’s tough to take in that manner. People get to feel how they feel and state the things they state, as long as they don't go over a particular line of, of racializing things or something like that. I don't think there was much else the school could do as far as what people would write in posts. Now treatment received to students or any physical threats or something like that, now I would expect the campus to do a little bit more. But just people giving nasty looks, I mean, we had students in the front and taking pictures, going, Look, it's a Black Student Center, wow, what is this? And they come make jokes. We had groups of students that would dare each other--groups of students who were not Black--they would dare each other to run in the Black Student Center and say something and run out. So that happened every week for probably the first semester, that entire first semester, second semester we were open. So it was a lot, it was a lot of little things like that. And people would come in and just try to crack a joke and, “I'm not Black, can I even stand in here” and then laugh and run out. Yeah. And that's again, disheartening, but that's not an actual rule that you broke. I mean, so what could we expect to happen? But it did expose the unaccepting behavior that a lot of people on campus had when it came towards Black people and Black students. So that behavior got exposed. So I would say that's a good thing. Even though it's a little bit of a struggle to go through it, but I would rather the truth come out. So, you know, people kind of get this from campus climate surveys, but we get to see it happen in real time. We get to see the actual discomfort or people saying, “No, I can't go in there.” But we didn't really see all of these things happening in the same manner with the other spaces! You know, you don't hear people saying, “Well, I don't belong to that racial group so I'm not going to walk in that space. I don't belong to this group. I'm not going to walk in that space. There’s a line I can't cross.” I didn't see these things. So if it happened, I don't know about it, but I didn't see these things. Well, we constantly got that. We had people that would walk up with their group of friends, one Black student, and then four or five other students. And they would walk up to the center and then everybody would stop right at the door and a Black student would keep walking in and turn around and go, “Hey, what are y'all doing? Y'all can come in here.” “Are you sure? Are we allowed in here?” And we had so much of that and it still happens now, but it happens rarely now. It was a common occurrence every day. So it took a while for accepting of having a Black Student Center. And that was from top to bottom. Ayana Ford: So on a more positive note. So you said you attended the Black Student Center’s grand opening? Jake Northington: Yes. Ayana Ford: How did it feel to actually go into the center for the first time? Jake Northington: (laughter) I had already been in the center for the first time months earlier. Remember, so I helped pick out some of the items that we put in there. I helped, you know, I selected all of the books that we chose. I actually went down to do the purchase of the bookshelf. Went out and picked the items that went on the wall with some of the art pieces. So I had already been in the center, months and months and months, many times before it opened. And then we had to do planning to actually have the grand opening. So of course I worked there, so I was a part of the planning process. So it wasn't like a shock and awe to me because I was a part of the Transcription by Ernest 8 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 planning process. But I do understand how much that meant to the whole campus. But again, I'm coming from a different perspective. I'm coming from a city. That's nice. This doesn't give me an aha or shock. For me, it was more of a, Okay, good. This is the first steppingstone for us. We needed to have this. And this is now something that can become a foundation. Like this space is always going to be here. Now let's continue to build some programs now that are going to help Black students on throughout the future. So that was more where my mindset was. Ayana Ford: Okay. To backtrack, how did the planning go? How'd you make those decisions on what needs to be put up and presented in the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: Well, I was--I just knew it had to be positive promotion of Black people, because all that's ever talked about in many of our classes is if they bring up the Black community, they're talking about slavery, they're talking about riots, they're talking about social upheaval and, or they're talking about sports. So, culturally we're not seeing a promotion, or any type of surrounding positive discussions with Black people, staff and faculty, students, anything, because everything we were mentioning, it includes the faculty and staff too. You know, they've been here for years and years. Some of them had been here two decades. Everything our Black students are facing just for two to four or five years, the faculty and staff has faced the entire time of their employment. So this includes them as well. I knew that everything that went up in here had to support the Black culture (technical difficulties)-- pick out. Hey, let's get some nice photos of Blackness in its most positive light. Let's get some photos of Black men, Black women, Black families, Black children. And then the books I selected were particular books of some of the most famous Black writers and scholars that--these are books that need to be read. I created this whole list. I went and talked to other people; other people added to the list. So it was a collaborative effort to make these things happen. And then we took a few people with us and we walked around and we just picked out items out of certain stores, you know, we looked online. And it was like, yes, these things are necessary. So you know, we have a big painting of Marcus Garvey. We have a--there's just so many different things that was just necessary. So that's kinda what we thought about. We thought about the past. We thought about the faculty and staff. And then we thought about the current students and the students to come, what would work to unify it all. And it's an uplifting thing to view and to see when you walk in here. And we also had a lot of students that are born in Africa, but they moved from Africa and they now live here in the San Diego area. Some of these students even brought things from home to help decorate the space. So, and that was, you know, they did that on their own. And they came and asked, they said, Hey, can we donate this? So we can put some of these African pieces in the space. So everybody added to it so that wasn't, you know--it was a part of my job, but everybody added to it. Ayana Ford: Hmm. So how do you feel like the art and the decor of the Black Student Center helped the center? Like how do you feel like it impacted the feeling of the Center? Jake Northington: Oh, a little more edifying. You tend to feel a little more at home. You tend to feel a little more comfortable. You walk in and you feel the culture and you just--now you like being on campus. Like you don't just run from class and leave campus and never come back until your next class at 8am. It allowed students to hang around a little bit more, which allows them to Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 9 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 now talk a little bit more, which now allows them to build more relationships. So these things were not happening before the Center. And then we can't just have it empty too. So now when you kind of decorate the area in culture, it just helps with all of these things. And then now you constantly have positive images and then positive literature and all of these different things to connect a Black person to go, “Wait a minute! This has been done before.” Because we had this big picture of Tulsa in 1921, Tulsa, Oklahoma, and it listed how many hospitals, how many banks, how many schools, how many restaurants, how many train and truck systems that existed through this picture of the people. And we had a picture like that of the Harlem Renaissance. And for Black students, faculty and staff, to walk in and see this, it reminds you again, Hey, look at what our people have done throughout the times. I'm here now in a university, it'll help you like motivate you a little bit more to push a little further, to do a little bit more. That's kind of how the artwork and the people kind of work together. And this is what makes it so much, so necessary to kind of culturally decorate the place. Ayana Ford: Hmm. Can you tell me a bit about the early focuses of the Black Student Center? Like the initiatives, programs, events, and focuses? Jake Northington: Yeah. So one of the main early focuses was, again, where all the Black people? So our main focus was we have to get the Black people in the center. So it didn't happen fast. So, you know, if you go to the school right now, it's like a regular thing. But it wasn't. And half of them worked there. So we had to promote the space. As far as this place is here! It exists. Come stop by. Let's go. If you're walking into the USU and you go stop and get a bagel and some coffee, take two more steps. Here's the center, you know, so students would come through and keep passing it and keep passing it and not think because the space was already there. It was just, it was a different room. So the room got rearranged. And then once they put up the sign and everything, it's--all of the spaces have a sign. It doesn't stand out. It's silver and black. All of the spaces have a sign. That's not going to point it out so much. So you kind of have to stop. So what we would do is we would stand in front of the, in front of the center! And kind of stand outside. And two or three of us are standing out there, like during our work hours and stop students, “Hey, hey, have you seen the Black Student Center? We just opened.” You know, we're doing this, we're doing this, we've got this program, this event coming up. And then we would, during U-hour, we would be out there and have a table and we would stop students. And keep telling us in class, other students that work there, they would make announcements in class. A big part was to get the students in the center. So we all had to keep stopping students and keep telling them. That was a daily thing. Hey, you need to tell at least five or ten people today about the space and keep telling, keep telling. So we kept going, kept going, kept going, kept going, and kept going. And then, the Black faculty and staff had a lot of help in that because they used to do like Black student welcomes. And it was a little smaller than it is now. Because now all of these entities get to (technical difficulties) and the Black faculty and staff would do like a Black student welcome. And then now you're able to put all these things together and now it made the welcome a little bigger. And now you have a place to bring the Black students to, and you're not just talking to them outside the building. So this all now started to bring more students in. And then during the orientations, we're now allowed to have a table at the orientations all during the summer. So now this helped with recruiting. So recruiting people to the space was number one. Number two we're trying to get in Transcription by Ernest 10 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 the school like as a student in the school, when now we got the students here, we need to get them in the space. We're all trying to recruit high school students to the school. So we will go around to the different high schools and speak to the different high schools. We also would go speak to the different community colleges in the San Diego area and let them know, Hey, San Marcos is a place to be. We have a Black Student Center as well. And that kind of helped bring in some of the Black students. So even while I worked there, I ended up seeing about eight Black students that I met at high school and recruited coming to San Marcos. So that was definitely a good feeling to see people that I spoke to when they were ninth to tenth grade and tried to, Hey, you just--you should, you should come to San Marcos. You know, we're building the Black culture there. You live here. Your parents are here. Bring in you in your parents and then them and their parents would show up to orientation. You talk to them again. And then they ended up making a decision to stay there. We actually got to directly affect and help Black students come to the campus. Without having a Black Student Center, we don't have as good a sell. So it's kind of helped improve Black students even applying to the school. Another thing was about grades. We need recidivism. We need to, we need to keep students here. So we know that freshman year is a big year for a lot of Black students. And we have a large amount of Black students that drop out in their freshman year, all throughout the CSU and UC systems. We need to impact that. We need to get those numbers down. We don't need people dropping out so much. So a part of this is there was a mentorship and that was a tutor program. And then the center connected with the tutoring center to try to help students and we let them come in here and give a, give a lot of presentations. And then maybe we can get some Black students working in the tutoring center and they do their hours here in our space. So that was an initiative that was pushed. And I was actually a tutor as well for some of the Black students. So now where these Black students may be uncomfortable or may not feel like they can get as much help from some professors or some other classmates or anything like that, they now were able to get that help in the Black Student Center. And then another thing was programming things. So getting students in there, recruiting students or recidivism and increasing people's GPA. And then, then we also got programming. And with that programming we're--we want to bring Black specific programming. That's going to increase students, graduating, going into higher education, learning more about their history, learning more about politics and society. And then what ways that they can maybe get through, past, and over traumas that are facing the whole Black community, what ways and what measures they can use moving forward. Ayana Ford: So do you think that's the main purpose of the center’s creation in your opinion? Jake Northington: For me? Yes, but I think other people would give different responses because I think everybody gets something different from the center. When you aim to do this, this, this, this, and this, and now each one of us can take what we need from the space. Like, Okay, I really need this. I really need that. I really need that. So if nothing else everybody loves it because it is a space for Black students. So if nothing else, I would think that would be the one thing everybody could say. Ayana Ford: Do you feel like that purpose should be--it's especially being accomplished now? Jake Northington: Yes, it definitely is. Yeah. Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 11 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Ayana Ford: I'm glad to hear. So what has been the impact that you see the Black Student Center is doing on the campus today? Jake Northington: It's bringing Black students and faculty together every day in an ongoing situation that never (technical difficulties) never was given a space, a space for Black faculty and students to operate together. So a lot of Black faculty would put on events. They would put on presentations; they would give workshops and things like this. Well, now having a center, this could happen right here in the center. So now we have directly faculty and staff that are Black, giving presentations to Black students. So where we may not have as many Black teachers, all of us, all of the Black students now have an opportunity to have that back and forth in some of those mentorships. And getting some of those can, maybe they can get help with resume writing, maybe they can get help with mental health and counseling. So all of these things were able to happen now to have that space for the faculty and staff to kinda mix and mingle with the students in a professional setting to where we can make these things happen now. Some of those lacking areas that we have for Black students, those things were now able to get accomplished because we have a space to put these people in, in an everyday basis. So that was a lot tougher to do when you just have Black students walking around and then you, you may never cross paths. A lot of faculty and staff got to meet students they would never normally meet because we have a hub now – we have a home base. So I think that's one of the most important things that have happened. And so many students now are more engaging of each other. Where come from all the Black people speak to each other. I came out here It wasn't so much the same because people are more spread out and they may be not used to seeing so many Black people like that in one space. I actually heard that from many students from the Murrieta Riverside County area that came to San Marcos, most of them had the same response. “It was ten Black people at my high school,” stuff like that. Every day I was the only Black person in class. Well, now all of those students are here and they're sharing those same stories. And now they can kind of help each other out and help get through some of these things and talk about, you know, how that may have affected their identity, has affected their personality, or affected their self-esteem. So then we can address some of these things. I mean, that's just some of the things that have come about, since having a Black Student Center, Ayana Ford: How do you feel like the Black Student Center impacted you personally? Jake Northington: I mean, hey, I got a job (laughter). I wasn't--personally, it gave me a space to use some of my skills. I think that's how it impacted me the most. So I was able to practice my photography. I didn't take pictures before I came to school, but those things kind of happened at the same time. I started working at the Center like right at the same time. All of that kind of came together at once. So now I got to practice my photography and I've since put out a bunch of photobooks and I've done so many different photo projects on campus for the Black Student Center. And of course, archived all of those pictures. The twenty thousand photos I've taken over the course of a few years. It gave me time to practice my study. So my actual program is the Visual and Performing Arts with an emphasis in art and technology. Everything from class with my occupation and with going through different programs within the center. I was able to bring everything from the center and all of those became my projects for class, all of my homework projects, all of my midterm things I had to do in art classes. I got everything from the Black Student Center, even some of my sociology classes and papers I had to write. I was able to get all Transcription by Ernest 12 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 of my information I needed from the center. So then other students did the same thing as well. If I have a paper to write and I needed, and I need books to read, I go right to the center. And I got all these, these books to choose from, so I don't have stuff that already exists, or I need to interview students cause I'm doing my psych class, and I need to interview a couple of students, here they are right here in the center. I have to do these surveys for, for this class or that class. And I get to come out and hand out my surveys in the center. So many students were able to take advantage of those things, where they wouldn't be able to do before, because before I have to stand outside of the USU (University Student Union) and ask people to help me, Hey, would you like to take this survey for my class? Hey, would you like to? And that's what we were doing before I had to do that for one of my classes. Once we got the space, we could do it right here and get assistance with your projects, with homework, everything. And then we also were able to--I was so happy that I was able to help different students sign up for classes because so many students coming out of high school, don't look at college in the whole scope of: this is what I need to do freshman year, sophomore, junior, senior year. And I need to be transitioning into resume writing and application to grad school. All of those things don't necessarily hit our community in the same way it does for everybody else. We have to--and just me being able to help some of the students. I mean, I really enjoyed that cause you're able to go through an online process of signing up for classes. And now I could sit directly and talk to them through of, Hey, let's take two hard classes, two easy classes and one medium class and that'll be your five classes. Don't just put them all up here, you know? What they put out here for people to take is a skeleton to work off of. You don't necessarily have to just take these classes in a row like that because you're coming from a lower economic area, maybe from downtown San Diego, maybe they didn't concentrate so much in mathematics. So now you need to take a few math classes before you get to college math--then okay, that's fine! Now let's take that at a junior college or let's take one of the lower maths we can, online. Let's take this, this, this, or how about this? Some of us started to take classes together so we could help each other and not just be in a class by ourselves and not have anybody to bounce ideas off of, or ask for assistance with our homework. And now we can share a book. A lot of those things now we're able to happen because we had the space. And I was just so happy to be able to help other students because I didn't have a difficult time through school. I mean, I got all A’s and everything and a couple of B’s. That's all, that's what I had the whole time, San Marcos. So, you know, I didn't have a problem with class whatsoever, but I knew other people did so to be able to help people, and help them with papers and help them with getting their courses together, help them with any remediation they needed. And it's just to help your people. When that's your intent, it feels good to be able to do that. And I think a lot of people got that out of the center too. Not just me. Ayana Ford: What do you expect to see next for the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: Hmm. That five-year anniversary! That's what I expect to see next. But I mean, John (Rawlins III, Director of the Black Student Center) is doing such an amazing job, this guy needs a Nobel peace prize. It's just so much that that's happening. It's almost (unclear) so he does, he does a lot of work in collaboration with other (student identity and inclusion) centers. So, so much collaboration has happened. It seems like he has that down pat, but for the center itself, more programs! Like a wider touch in San Diego. We need to really get San Marcos on the Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 13 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 map in the same level as San Diego State. You walk around anywhere in San Diego County, and everybody's heard of San Diego State. So it's an option. It's 13-year-olds that have heard of San Diego State, so it's an option. We need to make CSU San Marcos and option for Black students. So this means we have to do more promotion. We have to stretch out more to the middle schools and high schools and getting the word out. We have to do more collaboration and more efforts to do programming outside of the campus, or at least show ourselves outside of the campus and people need to know that there's a Black hub of people at Cal State San Marcos. So that's one thing that I would like to see that needs to happen. One thing that is in the works is the Black alumni chapter. I started everything rolling with that and it just pulling people in to be a part of it and everybody can play whatever role they choose. So to have a Black alumni network. Now we have something for our graduates to fill a need. “I'm looking for employment. I am looking to go to grad school, I'm looking to get a PhD. I'm looking to relocate.” Whatever, we need an alumni network to help with that. So for us to not have our own alumni network would do us a disservice. Just continuing to build that Black network up at San Marcos. So I paid my alumni dudes. I'm full alumni, lifetime membership. Now I'm going to help support in any type of way I can. So, let me see what else? I would like to see us have a bigger space. As our student population is growing, we need a bigger space. These were, this was a very small room, and they knocked the wall down to try to open it up a little bit. This was a very small prayer room before it became the Black student center. It needs to be bigger space. I think they (other student centers on campus) had more of an intention of this is going to be a space for this particular thing. They're a little more wide open and they have a little more space. But when it came to the Black Student Center, there was not a designated area. So they had to find a space and kinda adjust the space to give to us, but it was just a smaller space. Well, the Black student population is growing. We also need the space to be used by Black faculty and staff. I would like to see us get a bigger space, much bigger space, at least three times. It's entirely too small. I would like to see the center get a graduate assistantship. So like the rest of the spaces have, there should be a graduate assistantship at the space and also a user space for, I would like to see more archives. And that's the whole point of this project. That's why I--I mean, I don't know if they told you, but this was my idea. I came up with this idea to add this project. After I was involved in another project I did where I got interviewed and I was like, you know what? It would be great if we can do this for the center, because this can't be lost. All of these things that so many, so many Black students that came here did--maybe even the Black students way before us. And then some of their names get lost and they don't get mentioned. We have to recognize all of the Black people that made the effort to get us this space because this space is a foundation now. And while we have the time and it's only been a couple of years, let's get that story told, let's put it out there, let's set the foundation and let's keep building the archives of the space. So I would like all the Black students, faculty and staff involved to be a part of this. This is something to look back to, like this was done, this was established, and we all came together to make this happen. So that does a lot of great work as far as inspiration. If you get a Black student as a freshman coming into the school and they see this was done by Black students, faculty and staff came together to make this happen. And it was just this recent, you know, three, four years ago. I mean that does, that does a good job for inspiration. And you get to actually talk to the people who help make this happen? That does a good deal of inspiring students to want to be active. And the more active you are as a student, the more likely you're going to stay in school, more likely we're going to graduate. So Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 14 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 we want this to just keep cycling through and keep building and keep building. Those are some of my thoughts as far as moving forward with the center. Ayana Ford: To backtrack on what you said, do you know, do you have any connection with the different leaders in this project and their contribution to the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: Oh, oh you want to hear some names? Ayana Ford: Yeah. Jake Northington: Oh, okay. Well, (Tiffaney Boyd) the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) president and she was also, think she was president or vice president of BSU (Black Student Union) at one point. So she's definitely--I mean, if it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have the center. Like we have some major names and, and, so her. Jamaéla Johnson, she was also an officer, maybe vice president or president of the BSU at a point. They all kind of, you know, took turns being the president. Everybody was the president at different times. And she was also at ASI. Then we have Akilah Green who was (unclear) one point. And she was also an ASI. So you had these three Black women at ASI during all of--they did most of the legwork, as far as the paperwork, the resolution, the promotion of it, bringing this information to the BSU, letting us know what's going on, the ins and outs of all of the meetings. Because I, you know, me as a student and other students, we could go to some meetings, but we were not going all of the meetings. You know? So as an ASI member, they were there for like every meeting and they had other meetings with administration and stuff like that. That we were not going to. So they would say, Wait this is the process, this is what's happening. Now. This is what's happening. Now, this is what the student body can do. This, this, this, and this. And then they also established partnerships with other people outside of the Black community on campus that helps support this resolution. So, without those three we wouldn't have this space. I hope their picture goes up in the center. That's one of the things I pushed for from day one, day one when the center opened and I hope this eventually happens: their picture and their name should go up as far as these are the most significant people, Black students (in the process of getting the Center), they should be mentioned. Ayana Ford: Speaking of programs, by the way, you had mentioned earlier, have you been involved in making any programs specifically? Jake Northington: Yeah, I was more events. More events. Some of the programming has been more collaborative. It wasn't just a simple thing. And most of the programs are mimicking other programs, because these are programs that need to exist in all of the centers. So like a mentorship program, we made one for us. Or the tutoring program. Again, that's something that's needed everywhere. Or you know, we--some of the ideas I came up with was, Hey, we need somebody to come speak about this. We need somebody to come speak about this. We need somebody to speak about this. So things we couldn't get people to speak about, like maybe historical context things, or certain things as far as how, how we're affected by different weather patterns, anything, whatever you want to think of. Art, Black art, or Black music, any not really a specific major for somebody to speak about, maybe not. I started to create PowerPoint presentations and create classes and go do the research myself. And then I would give some of these classes in the Black Student Center to different faculty and staff and students. And different people would Transcription by Ernest 15 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 come in and I would give the class right here on the big screen in the center. And you know, that was something I was able to do, so I did quite a few of those. So as an individual, I did some of those things, but everything else was pretty much a collaborative work. So Black Panthers, of the Black Panther Party. People that still kind of live in the San Diego region that maybe worked in Oakland or worked in the San Diego, L.A. region, when they were teenagers operating in the Black Panther Party, those people came to speak. Creating events such as Black Women's Appreciation. So that was, that was another event that I had a lot of hand into. I was like, We should do this. Like we should appreciate all the Black faculty and staff. So we need to make an event for Black faculty and staff, and then for the women, and kind of gave out and created our own letters of recommendation or a letter of appreciation that was handed out to all of the people. And then, and of course I was there taking pictures. So it was more about all of us sitting together at the table and kind of tossing out ideas. Everybody kind of played a different hand in that. And then the ideas that made sense, we got together and move forward. Ideas that maybe didn't make so much sense, we kind of held it on for later. So that's kind of the process of how that worked. Ayana Ford: You also mentioned taking photographs at the events and such. So how do you think that impacted the people around at the Black Student Center? Seeing themselves? Jake Northington: That's, again, that's such a great impact because as of right now, there's a huge picture in the center right now covering one of the walls. And it's a picture I took of one of the Black students that graduated. And it's just--it may be the biggest impact. Because as we know, just visibility, you know, positive promotion and propaganda of Black students, when you go on that website for any (unclear) that pop up, almost are never Black. You know, when you walk through the halls and you see the pictures on the walls, they're just, you may not ever see a Black person. When you just walk around campus, it just may never happen. So, you don't feel as invested or as included in your own campus. So to see yourself in these photos, to see yourself on the wall, it just really emboldens people to want to be here, to love the choice that they made for being at that school. And it just helps them enjoy school a lot more. I saw so many eyes light up or when I would take pictures at the event, I would make a slideshow and then it would be up on the screen, just rotating all day. When people walked in, they would eat lunch or hang out or do a little homework or whatever they did, and it would just rotate. And then on the regular, right after the event, two or three days later, everybody's in the center, like, Where's the photo, where's the photos? And then they're looking through and everybody's pointing and laughing and go, Oh, remember this, remember this? It just keeps adding to the enjoyment and experience of just being there and being on the campus. I mean, I really love (unclear). I think it just, it just, it helps in a way that you can't even measure. So to have pictures of yourself, enjoying college with other Black students here, it's immeasurable. Ayana Ford: Are there any other questions I should have asked that I did not? Jake Northington: (laughs) Let me see. Maybe, I don't know. What are we doing now? Are we actively doing the things to continue with the mission statement? Has the mission statement changed? Are we, are we on the mission right now? Do we have a new mission now, now that it's been three-plus years? Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 16 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Ayana Ford: Hmm. So what do you think? What's the new mission-Jake Northington: Or something like that. Ayana Ford: So what do you think-Jake Northington: I think the same mission. Yeah. I think the same mission should continue. And I think there is a new mission though. So a new mission would be to get more Black people hired as staff and faculty on campus. Being a student there over the years, a lot of the Black students that graduated, they're gone, that's it. You don't see them again. We don't get a lot of Black students hired now back into the campus. But I do see this from other groups. And then I see this across all other campuses and colleges, universities. We need to get a push for our Black graduates to be rehired back into their alma mater of CSU San Marcos. I think that needs to happen. The school is getting bigger. So since I left, they built a couple more dorms. They built like the dining facility. They built quite a few more; the Extended Learning Building, think they're going to build another parking structure. So as these things continue to increase so should our Black faculty and staff and student population. I'd like to see a push to get the campus more involved in making those things happen, because that shouldn't be a job just put on us. The campus should be involved in the recruitment of Black students and the hiring of more Black faculty and staff. We don't need to be an exchange situation where, okay, we lost three Black faculty members. We're going to go hire two. It shouldn't be happening like that. We should be expansively growing as--as while the campus is growing. So that definitely needs to happen. And I’d like to see a lot more support from the campus, as far as the other students go, and other faculty. Black Student Center events–we should be able to look around and see a sea of people that are not Black. We should see the support of everybody who professes to support all students. Then you can reflect your support by showing up. So we have a few people from the Dean of Students, we got a few people from the other centers that have been consistently supporting the Black Student Center the whole time, but we don't see a grand amount. We don't see large amounts. To have 17,000 plus people on campus, we should see some of that when there was a Black Student Center event, just like it is when there's an event for another center or event for another space or event for somewhere else. That same support of showing up. I'd like to see that happen moving forward. And that should be a point of emphasis because that's only going to keep growing us even at a higher rate. Ayana Ford: So how do you think that the campus can reach out some more? You had mentioned before through middle schools and high schools. So you have any other ideas of how they can reach out more to Black students? Jake Northington: Yes. The Office of Communications could do a (technical difficulties). I think that has changed now. When I was there, I didn't see it, see it as much, but I still get the emails. I see it a little bit more right now, so that's good. And they can keep pushing the events. As the Black Student Center or the Black Student Union, or other Black clubs and organizations that are putting on events, the Office of Communications can do a great job with supporting those events by promoting them on all the digital signages and all the flyers. ASI could do a better job of supporting, the USU could do a better job. So just support us by promoting our events when we put them out there. Great help. Instead, Black students having to go person to person to try to get somebody to show up to the Black Student Center events. And that's a struggle that not every other group has specifically. Some people may, some people may not, but that really hinders the Transcription by Ernest 17 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Black Student Center’s effect--as far as it could have a greater effect if we got more people. Everybody has to help us with that. That's not a burden that should just be put on the Black students. And also we need to work on lowering that, those parking passes (Ford and Northington laugh). That’s always a fight. Ayana Ford: It really is. So over the years, you've seen over the years have you seen a giant shift the way Black students are seen on San Marcos campus, through the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: I wouldn't say giant shift. I can't really speak to that because everything that we were facing on the campus, we pretty much still face. So I don't know if I can answer that question. I've been away from the campus for like over a year now. I can’t really answer that. But while I was there, it was the same wall in front of us the whole time I was there. So once I left, I don't know how much that has changed. So the, like the comfort level of people, the hesitance to help or support, or the hesitation to be around us as much. And I can't speak to how much that's changed. I know some people in some areas have gotten a little more comfortable, but as an overall campus, I don't know about that. I dunno. I have though--I mean, the new president seems like she's doing a good job and it seems like it's on track for that to happen, so I would say I would put it that way. It seems like they're on the track, on the right track. Ayana Ford: (technical difficulties, interview stopped recording) So, do you, are you able to see the record button now? Jake Northington: Nope. But if you’re-Ayana Ford: It's saying recording on my side. Do you see? Jake Northington: This recording? I hope you get-Ayana Ford: Okay. It says it's back to recording. Did the box come up for you? Jake Northington: Nope. Ayana Ford: Okay. It's recording. So I want to go back a bit on your photography, on how you talked about taking photos for the Black Student Center. So you had mentioned that you had books in the Black Student Center. Jake Northington: Yes. Yes. Ayana Ford: So what was then, so what were the books in the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: I'm glad you asked that, I've got them right here, since we're talking about it. I didn't, I didn't think we were going to talk about it, but since we gonna talk about it and let's talk about it. So, again, this is a study I did through the Black Student Center for one of my classes. So I took an independent study in my photography class, and I wanted to do similar to like a yearbook, but for Black students on campus. So for the years to come, people would always remember these times and that this happened and that this was around because we don't have a concerted effort of: here are the archives of photos of Black people on this campus. So since that doesn't exist, I was like, I'm going to start it. So the idea was every year to go around and capture Transcription by Ernest 18 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 some very good photos, as much as I could, of just different Black people on campus and around campus. And then I put a focus to it. Because I want it to add a social aspect to it. I wanted to make a corrective measure. It's an attempt to make a correction of a social issue. So, and then all the books go together. They create one sentence. So the titles of every book create one sentence. So this is the first book. (Northington holds up a book to the camera, soon starts flipping through its pages) It's called Hueman and it's spelled H-U-E meaning like, the hue or the tone or the skin color. I can show you a few pictures throughout the book. And I created these books to kind of change how people saw Black students on campus. And this was specific to the Black men. So, walking around campus, a lot of (Black men) are considered, you know, something negative. People love to use that same stereotypical word as thug or criminal, and, and we need to detach those verbs and those negative nouns to black men. So the idea for this book was, Hey, be yourself, be who you are, be what you are, and just sit here and give me a natural calm, solemn look. And we want to capture that. And I wanted to also show the campus. So a part of this was to show that the entire campus too. So we want to walk around and show the campus different areas of the campus, all different. And these Black men have a different mixture of ethnic backgrounds. And then we just wanted to go around and get a little bit of everybody. And when they saw this book, (laughter) I mean, people lost their minds. It's like, Oh, wow. Oh, wow. This is amazing. This is this. And that's the best part of it for me. How well people received the book was the best part to me. So I went to add a positive adverb. So when you saw this Black face of a Black man and you attach it to that adverb, this is kind of how propaganda works. So propaganda, it can be positive or negative. When you see a news article or a magazine and they put a picture and words, you combine that together and you get a thought in your head and they could kind of help curb some stereotypes that people have of Black men. So this one says philosophical. So I want you to be able to see this face and know that this person is philosophical. And let's add that together. And I actually know most of the people in his book. So this guy was--he worked in the art building and you know, that wouldn't come across if people just use the stereotypes. And then this is a Polaroid picture of me in the center, one of the first semesters working there. And in the book, I would put the thank yous and then I would translate it into an African language, so it also becomes a teaching tool. So this book is translated into Bantu and Bantu is spoken in South Africa by the Xhosa tribe, in Cape town, South Africa. So, and then this was completed in 2017, the first year of the center, so that's book one. Well, man, I had to keep it going. I had to keep it going. I didn't think I was going to keep it going, but everybody loved the book so much. It's like, All right, let me keep it going. (Northington holds up another book) So then this is the women's book, and this is actually the photo that's up in the center right now. So the big photo, it is on the wall in a Black Student Center. And this is, I love this photo. So, Janeice Young that's who that is, Janeice Young. I think she graduated in 2018? Yeah. Janeice Young. She worked in the-- So then I'll put a little bit, a little poem here. That's only my words that I wrote. And then this book is for Black women specifically. So I wanted to promote Black women being who they are, being them natural selves, loving school with them smiling and enjoying life because I wanted to get rid of, or aleve them in some out of the stereotype of being an angry Black woman. Of being loud or being obnoxious. So we're--we want to get away from those types of stereotypes and that type of negative casting. So then, just went around and taking all of these good photos. And I mean, they took a while. Some of these opportunities were like, I would have to take seventy or eighty photos to--and then pick out the one really good one that I liked. And I was able to enter some of Transcription by Ernest 19 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 these in art competitions, which went pretty well. That photo is actually taken in the center early on center. The center looks a lot different. So, you know, that's one of the archival pieces anymore, its a lot different. So now these people have all different majors, again, all different mixtures. Some of these people are from different countries around the planet. And I wanted--to kind of this be like a promotional tool as well. So I started to bring these to the orientations as well and show other students; “Look, look, you can be in the next book.” And it really inspired a lot of students. And that's the SBSB (Social and Behavioral Sciences) building. So I just got all positive reviews; everybody that was in the book, everybody that saw the book, everybody just keeps saying positive things about it. So I think it was a good idea. It ended up being a great idea. And some of these people worked in the center before, like both of them. So I think she's graduating right now. She worked in the center. And then this is more archival footage. There's-the Extended Learning Building is now back here, and another dorm building that didn’t exist then. And then this is one of the dramas--and this is one of the feeder campuses MiraCosta. So it's a community college that feeds into this school. And then this was taken inside of the USU (University Student Union). So it was right in front of the campus. I love it. I love it. And then again, the teaching tool in this book, this was translated into Somali and it's spoken in Yemen, Djibouti, Somalia, Kenya. And then I also get to get a little help from some of the students who are from African countries, and they help translate. So it's a whole group effort. And then, that book is called “Solar Amalgamations.” And this is the third and final book (Northington holds up a third book). This is the one I most recently completed before I left campus. And this book is called “We Are,” so the focus of this book was to show us together. So first we had the book about the men and changing the negative images in the book and the book about women and changing a negative stereotype. And then now I want to bring these people together and show men and women together, you know, enjoying a campus, the campus life, something that we rarely get to see Black students doing. You may see some Black students in diversity photos, or something like that, students together and some of these photos. So again, I put some nice little positive words and a little bit of a poem. And then that's the front steps of the campus and you just got students walking around and much of this looks like a commercial. It looks just like a, you know, a little magazine article or something like that. And that's the feel I wanted to give off. I wanted people to be able to look through here and just see, hey, just regular students. This is Keenan. He plays a guitar all the time. And my man, Sam, he's a skateboarder. So we get to see a lot of these things. So ideally enjoying campus together and that's and that's a really good photo. So I'm sure they're going to look back on this ten, fifteen, twenty years from now and remember that day and what they were laughing about. So, that's the point. I mean, I love it. You might recognize some of these people, maybe, maybe not. That was the point of this book and, let's get to the end. Oh, there go--my favorite two people right there, Ms. Marilyn (McWilliams), Ms. Ariel (Stevenson). You will be interviewing them soon. Shamar. And then some of these students now work in the Black Student Center. It's just a whole, well, just circle to circle. Kiki, Taj – he worked in the center for a while. So we got a little bit of everybody. And then and at the end of each book, I always put a photo of myself too, just to, you know, who the artist was. And this is actually a photo with two photos from the previous book that's in the art show at the campus. They had an art show on campus and they asked me to put my stuff in the art show. So I submitted it and they got picked for some of the final pieces. A lot of students submitted and then mine got picked. And so it was just a good reflection to show it in the book, actually a photo from the art show. And then this Transcription by Ernest 20 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 one was translated into Swahili. Swahili is spoken in Tanzania, Congo and Kenya as well, or Rwanda and other places. So, and just show us there holding hands. And then all the--all three books, the sentence that it completes is: “We are human solar amalgamations.” So those are the three titles. “We are,” “Hueman,” and “Solar Amalgamations.” And that pretty much loosely means, “We are stars.” That's what that means. And then that completes one project. And now I'm going to move on to work on a different project for Black people. Ayana Ford: So by keeping these archives, would you say that--how would you say that it impacted, the art, I mean, the environment of the Black Student Center? Because you can go back and look at the history, how do you think that impacted students? Jake Northington: I think it makes students really feel good about who they are and what they are. It just makes us feel good. It's like, Okay, I can do this too! And then it was just done last year or the year before, or just, there's been a history of Black people before me that came here as a freshmen or sophomore, and they made these things happen. I can also do it. These people got involved and you start to see some of the same faces. Oh, she was also the president here. She was also the vice president here. She was also in the Academic Senate. She did this, this, this, and this. She graduated; she got these awards. If she can do it, So can I. If he can do it, so can I. So to continue to see people that look like you do these things at the same school, again, it's only as inspiration. And it helps a lot of our students coming in to even give more effort, to be involved, to be around, to start to do some of the work themselves and to--and now we can kind of pull some of these people in to get into doing things as such as going to graduate school, or now they might be more apt to accepting help in the areas that they need help in, because that becomes a hurdle. A lot of students don't want to ask for help because they don't want to feel unintelligent. They don't want to ask for support because they don't want to feel like they're in poverty. And they don't want to feel judged. Well, that's a real thing. So if we can show a little more, if we can speak a little more about our experiences so we have--we get to show up as a graduate or as a senior and say, Hey, look, I had to stretch out a few dollars throughout the month. I had tough, tough times in this particular history class or that particular class. This is why I reached out for help. I went to the food pantry for this. I went to the tutoring lounge for this. I went to this for this. Now that allows a link in a chain to be made, to help Black students succeed more when that's the point: to keep them here and to graduate them and prepare them for life after the university. So I think just the pictures up, just having the photos add to that. Each thing we do on campus for the Black students and for Black Student Center all adds to the overall goal of keeping students there, recruiting students and graduating students, it all adds. And now building that Black alumni chapter. Now we take it even a step further. So every part of this process was necessary. Every single person that was involved was necessary, and I just think they all should be mentioned and named. And whether it has a big plaque made to put everybody's name on it, or we definitely need to get that Tiffany, Jamaéla, and Akila photo and plaque up in the center, you know, stuff like that before too many years, it'd be forgotten. You don't need these events or these situations to be forgotten. These people should be remembered. And everybody needs to know that this occurred. Because we have to think back: 1989 the school was established. There have been many Black people to come to this school since 1989. Well, since then many Black people have tried to make change on this campus. We may never Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 21 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 know their names. We may never know the change they was trying to create. We may never know about the five, eight, ten attempts to get a Black Student Center, but we can't let stuff like that continue. We need to reach back and try to find those stories and we need to establish something to move forward. That's what makes--we're so lucky that we got Gezai (Berhane) here because Gezai’s the first Black graduate, so we could kind of get some of those stories from then to now. And we can kind of connect the 30-year path of this campus and Black action on this campus. And we can connect those thirty years together and kind of tell that story and kind of add and add to it, add to that. I really love that about this project and I'm just so happy it was able to happen and that people want to be involved with this. Because this is going to affect the Black community forever on this campus. Ayana Ford: Yeah, absolutely agree. Well, that is all the questions I had. Do you have any more, anything else you would like to add? Jake Northington: Yeah. I’d like to thank Ms. Marilyn McWilliams and Ms. Ariel Stevenson, because I probably would not still have stayed on the campus, and I might've transferred, if it wasn’t for people like them. Because they add a good element of support that you may never get. You know, because when I got here, we didn't have a center. It's (hard) to find spaces to get some, you know, just to be able to go talk out ideas, to be able to go, just relax a bit, to get to step away from the campus while you're still on campus. So, I was able to go visit their office and just sit down and get some little, I guess they would call it counseling or mentorship or whatever people describe that as, but to be able to just sit down and just talk to them and be like, All right, this is what's going on campus right now. This is happening. This is happening. And they were able to give me (advice), Hey, you can go here to get that handled. You can talk to this. You can go to this meeting. You know, to have people to be able to point me in the right directions to get some of these things accomplished. If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't be able to walk into all these directions. And I probably wouldn’t have been as involved as I was. When they encourage all of the Black students--and those are two staff members that show up to everything that's been done by the Black Student Center and by the BSU. And they've all, they've consistently shown up, those two. Most of the Black students have probably seen them or spoken to them or even met with them quite a few times. So without them, it would be a totally different story, so (laughs) I can't leave anybody out. Ayana Ford: Well, thank you so much for allowing me to interview you for this project. And thank you so much. Jake Northington: Thank you! (interview concluded but then started again) Ayana Ford: So Mr. Northington what is your major? What was your major at (California State University) San Marcos. Jake Northington: So, I came to San Marcos in the spring 2016 and I graduated fall 2019. So my major was Visual and Performing Arts with an emphasis in art and technology. My first minor is Ethnic Studies. Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 22 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Ayana Ford: So what got you into photography? Jake Northington: Just the class that was on my list. My intention was to do digital art and media. So that's the point of signing up for that program. But while in the program, one of the class options to take was a photography class to meet some of the requirements. So I took that class and I just liked it. And it seemed doable and it was not as hard as I thought photography was, at least not for me. I thought it was more difficult than what it was. So the teacher did a very good job at teaching us how to use any camera so you don't have to just get one and that's it. She kind of showed us how to use all cameras of all brands and how to manipulate the camera and, you know, just all the lighting techniques and everything we needed to use. And then in addition to that, CSU San Marcos has a great support system for all the areas of art. They have a music studio, they have an art studio, they have a dance studio and they have a recording studio within the library as well. Having all of those options, you're allowed to really practice your craft. I was able to go check out studio time in the library on the first floor in the library and continue to just take photos, take photos, do recordings and it allowed practice because I saw what I wanted things to look like in my head, but I couldn't physically do it yet with the camera. Just having this person as a teacher and then having those elements available on this campus, it allowed me to now get time to sharpen these things up and get my photos to the point where I wanted them to look like. And it really, I just--I was excited from the beginning because all I thought about was photographing Black people on campus. Like, I know we need this. This has to be. And then I had to go sell it, like, okay, who's gonna buy this? And I don't mean sell it as far as money. I mean, sell the idea of putting this up on campus. There were no photos up of Black people on campus when I showed up. So I was--and then you walk around another year, goes by. And then I saw one picture and this was a Black woman who was a track athlete on the campus. And then that's the only thing I saw. I'm like, We have to change that. My whole idea was: I got to learn how to use this so I could put out all of these things and I can show up to all these events and take the pictures, because everybody's just taking pictures on their phones or something like that. And it's not, you know, it's not enough. People just have personal photos on their phones. I'm like, No, I have to do this. So I actually went around and took pictures, for ASI, for all types of groups on campus, and I just kept getting practice, kept getting practice. By the time the center opened, I had a good year in. And then I was like, Okay, I think I can start to help. And then I started. Just kept doing it, kept doing it, the whole idea behind that first class was, I need to do promotion of Black people because I have to put these positive images of Black people out here. So, and it just, you know, some of the photos I ended up using for flyers, some of them, I ended up using for some of my PowerPoint presentations in different classes and it just continued to grow and continue to grow. And I still use a lot of them today and now everybody loves it. And then a lot of the students got free photos out of it. Because people like, “Oh, I want a photo shoot. I want a photo shoot.” So now I'll go do a little photo shoot, give them all the photos. And then we sit together and go, okay which, give me the top three that you like. And I'll pick between one of those three to go into the book. And that's how those things happen. So I let them help me decide which photos actually went into the book because this is going to promote you and show you. You want to show yourself how you want to show yourself. I love it. So that's what got me into photography. And then I later went on to just work professionally with a couple Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 23 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 of groups in San Diego for about four or five years. And it only stopped because you know, everything going on right now (referring to the COVID-19 pandemic). But, I just continued to do photography. Ayana Ford: Well, any, do you have anything else to add? Anything you can think of? Jake Northington: Well, I would say once we got the Black Student Center, it also opened up job opportunities for Black students that didn't exist before. So previously Black students were in competition with everybody else on campus to work everywhere for student workers. So--some people may have reservations about Black people or some people may believe in stereotypes. And any other reason that hinder Black students from having the same job opportunities on campus as other students. When we walk, you walk around and see all these USU (University Student Union) workers, see all of the people working in different departments. Again, you just don't see a lot of Black students. You don't see, you know, three, four or five of them and that's it. Well having a Black Student Center now opened up more job opportunities and now opened up spaces for Black students to come in and practice being a professional worker in the world, because maybe you push buggies for Ralphs (supermarket chain). Maybe you load the groceries at Walmart, but you haven't done a professional job in a professional setting. You haven't done report writing. You haven't put on events. So this now opens up an arena for Black people and Black students to kind of practice some of these jobs skills or even have a job opportunity on campus. That became a big thing that didn't exist before. So now over the years, Black students now have an area, Hey, I can apply here and I might have a good chance to get a job. And this might--you might have a better chance getting a job at the Black Student Center and then everywhere else on campus combined. So it opened that up. And then a lot of other students kind of what, that may be not have worked before, they wanted to work. And they could have been here freshman, sophomore year, didn't care to work, but then by junior year they were like, Oh, you know what? I want to work in the Black Student Center. They putting on all these amazing events. I want to be a part of that. I want to be a part of the creation. I want to build a part of this. Some students actually did that. And then some students came to the campus with the idea of working in the Black Student Center. Because you know, them and their parents were going over this like, Okay, you're going to stay on campus. You-this is going to be your major. This is going to be a class period. What are your opportunities for working? The center is now listed in the opportunities for on-campus jobs. So I think that was a great help as well. And it's still. Right now (the BSC) have served as a great help over the time, because look at how many Black students have worked in the center now over the years. All of those students would not have a job, at least not there. So now it'd be a little more difficult for them to work somewhere else without that opportunity. And these skills just go along with the rest of your life. Now, and I just think it built, it just builds a lot of love and comradery within the Black community on campus, which then in turn, turns into a lot more Black people walking around, feeling better about themselves, and maybe they have a better day or maybe their grades are a little bit better. Maybe they don't have as hard a time studying. And maybe they feel better just about walking around and being on campus. So these things really have a great effect. And the Black Student Center is just, that's the greatest place on campus. I would eat my meals in there when I was on campus. I'm getting my food, I'm coming to eat here. So people started doing that. People would normally go off campus and go to some fast-food restaurant and hang Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 24 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 out, eat, and then come back to campus. Not anymore. They go pick their food up and come back to eat it in the center to be around people and to talk and, you know, have a little fun and play a few games or something before they go back to class. So it just is building community. And that, again, that's another thing that just can't be measured. I hope it's here until the end the time. We should have the Black student center. And I'm trying to come back to the 25th anniversary, to the 70th anniversary. Lastly, I'm just ready for next year to have this (project of oral histories) presented. However its going to be presented by video or audio, however, is coming out, transcribed. However it comes out. I'm very excited for year five (of the BSC’s existence) and all of the people that has been a part of making it happen. And I just, I thank everybody, and I'm glad my idea came to fruition and we got a nice little grant to make this happen. This was great, it happened pretty fast too. I didn't yet thank the library for their help in making it happen. Ayana Ford: Thank you so much for allowing me to interview you today. Thank you. Jake: Alright. Alright. We good now? (interview concluded but then started again) Ayana Ford: So, do you know of the people who push for the Black Student Center specifically, like a couple of names and how it came to be? Jake Northington: Yeah. I mean, I can give you some names. I can't name everybody, but I recognize some of the people because they were there throughout the whole time, but again, some of the students were seniors already. So, you know, they did what they could and then graduated and were gone, and then some of the students were in and out and maybe not there all the time. But a few of the students are the--there was these two twins. They were the current BSU presidents during the time when we opened the space. And their names was Danni and Darnesha, I think the last name is Thornton. Also have Ashton, you have another guy, Louis Adamsel. You have, Marvin Cook who was later to BSU president. Like once the center officially opened, he was the BSU president. You have Renee White. You have a lot of women from a sorority that was there, so then we have, Darhra Williams; another one of the original workers in the center. Think it was originally five or six workers in the center. You have another name, Brandy Williams. Another lady; she went to a lot of ASI meetings to try to garner support and push for the reason for us to have the center. We have--oh, there's just so many people. That's about all I can think of right now, quickly off the top of my head. So there's others, there’s others, but those are some of the main people that I would see constantly. And then there’s staff members as well. So that was Black faculty and staff members as well, that assisted along the way, Dilcie Perez. Of course, Mrs. Marilyn (McWilliams), Ariel Stevenson., so we have a lot of staff members like that, that were assisting, (technical difficulties) so involved. Other than that, I mean, you have to go back and look at pictures and kind of pull up some more names. Because remember, this is years ago, you’re talking about 2016 when all of these things were happening pretty big, so its been a few years-Ayana Ford: And so what programs did you help create and you're involved in, in some form? Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 25 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Jake Northington: Yes. So I came together with a guy, Louis Adamsel again, I came together with him and we kind of talked about having a brotherhood student organization. So there was nothing specific to Black men on the campus. Everything was just, you know, it was geared to other people or groups. But there was nothing geared towards Black men. We talked about it for a while and then we started it; he was the president. I was vice president. And the idea for that was to assist the Black men. And again, with tutoring, mentorship, help guiding them through being a student, help them out of trouble, help them with their classes, class selection, and just help them in life skills that they maybe didn't get from growing up in whatever area they're coming from. And if they did get it, it just helped them with some confidence, kind of put them in positions to where they could speak more or be seen more, and just any type of support that they needed. And that was kind of about the things we go through individually and how we could collectively change those things. And this is--and some of those guys ended up in the book (Hueman), so it's three or four of those guys went in the book, from the brotherhood. And we started that in 2017 and this was--these are one of the things that has now attached to the center as a program. And now it's called the Brotherhood Alliance. So now they're continuing it. And that was the point, you know, because the student organization does as well or as bad as the group of students that are there. Yeah. And then you get stretched thin trying to continue an organization if the organization is not very big, so something that important needed to continue. So I presented this to John Rawlins (III, previous director of the Black Student Center) and he liked the idea, he wanted to continue it. So, and then they call it the Brotherhood Alliance and they still even meet right now. And I go to some of the meetings now and they just continue it. And they have another group, a group of guys that are the president and vice-president. So he (Rawlins III) got another group of guys that's keeping it going and, and they're active on campus and hey, I love it. I'm glad it's--I'm glad it's moving. Another organization that I got started was the Black Sistahood. So we had a Black Brotherhood, Black Sistahood. So we want to have them both. You don't just, you know, I'm not into just one side of the coin. We have to help both sides because there are particular things that we go through, you know, that needs to be addressed. Well, I couldn't be in the president of the Black Sistahood, you know, I don't think that should be led by me. So I continued to pick different women on campus that I thought would fit the bill. And I wasn't getting a lot of a response back. So it took a while to kind of find somebody that wanted to take the mantle of that. But in the meantime, it was like the Black Brotherhood and Black Sistahood was housed within the Black Brotherhood. So we would still help everybody. We would still help and support the different Black women on campus, but we were not going to lead a conversation or lead a program specifically for Black women. So it was just kind of housed within the Black brotherhood. And then we would do it in a different way and we would go support the Black women, the Black womens’ sorority events and things like that. So once I finally ran into a person, Sunni Bates, she was very excited about this and she wanted to be the leader of it. And I was like, Okay, here we go! Now we got somebody that wants to lead that. So she became the president and then I didn't want to hold any type of position because that's for them, specifically. So then we went out and recruited different members and we got a bunch of ladies together who were not active in any other groups and it was like, Okay, here's another, here's another club to push Black people--help Black people to push themselves out of the idea of this is all we have and that's all it is, anything Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 26 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 outside of that is wrong. And I think some people on different campuses really feel like you should only have a BSU. Anything outside of that is challenging the BSU. Well I didn't stand for that. I was like, We have to change that idea. I draw. We need to have a Black art club. These people love movies. We need a Black movie club. So these are the things we pushed around. We started to have Black movie nights. Then we have you know, a night for this, a night for that. They started a dance group. Some ladies had a dance club that they started and there's even a new dance club right now. So just to keep pushing the idea, we can have more, we can have fifteen or twenty Black student clubs. So this gives a vast array of things for Black students to be active in. When you only give them one or two, that doesn't do enough. We're all different. We all got different likes and wants and needs. So we need to spread it out, that's the other part of having a Black Brotherhood or Black Sistahood. So--and then I just operated in both of those. And again, I'm on my way out. Then John, John Rawlins was like, Hey, is this something we could kinda take on from y'all because both of y'all are going to be leaving. So I spoke with him (Rawlins III), Sunni spoke with him, and then now they have—I think they call it the Circle of Sisters. I think that's what it's called, something like that, or something close to that. So now they have that with the Brotherhood Alliance, and these are now programs housed in the Black Student Center. That didn't happen before. So now offering multiple clubs. And then now they're housed in the center versus if a few active students leave, these things may get thin or spread apart or go away, and we don't need those things to happen. So we need things that are constant and constant, and that are continually going to help the students and support the students. So I was really happy to see that happen. And then, you know, now you don't have to put that burden on a new student, showing up to try to collect the Black brothers together, collect the Black sisters together. You don't have to put that burden on them. Now they have a vehicle to operate out of, it just gives more help to a need. So then through all of these different clubs and organizations--remember, I'm an art student--so I'm not only taking pictures, I'm doing sculptures. I did a couple of sculpture things that I did for ASI and, and that I did for the Women's Center. And then the Women's Center over at the time changed their name to the Gender Equity Center, but it was the Women's Center when I got there. And then so I did this sculpture piece in collaboration with them and with ASI around saving straws. So the straw campaign happened during I was, while I was at the school. And they wanted to stop the use of as much plastics and put it together to create a sea animal, which was a sea turtle to show: look at how this affects the marine and aquatic life. And we used that to kind of help push sustainability and to end the uses of straws on campus and all these other things. So, I was able to use my artwork and all these dynamic ways, and then now I started to design logos and shirts for clubs and organizations outside of the Black Student Center and in a Black Student Union. And then that just led to so many more opportunities. I began to photograph events for the diversity office (Office of Inclusive Excellence), for ASI, clubs and just different things. And then at the end it was time for me to make my own. I've done so much for so many other people. And then just so many people, I just got so much good feedback from a lot of the t-shirts and stuff that I made. And a lot of the designs I was like, I guess it's time for me to make my own, I'm on my way out of here so I'm just going to start making some of my own stuff. So then I started making Brotherhood and Sistahood t-shirts and hoodies and sweaters and all jackets, Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 27 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 different things like that. And I'll just keep testing out things, keep redesigning things. That's a lot of the stuff I did in my last semester. And then that ended up with their own t-shirt line. And now I make my own stuff, so I love it (Northington holds up the hoody he is wearing). And some of these things have now been sold to different colleges and universities. They contact me and I, you know, I have my own LLC, my own business. And I work with other Black student centers and diversity departments, and they buy stuff in bulk to give out to Black students across the San Diego and LA County. And so those ideas and all of that work that I was able to do, and things I was able to be a part of, and working with the different groups, and just creating and sparking new ideas led to this; I use this to help pay for graduate school as well. So it's a nice full circle of work. Ayana Ford: Yeah. And then you still came back to San Marcos to help us with this project. Jake Northington: (laughter) Well, they haven’t let me go. So, I've done a few projects even after graduating. Once I graduated, I still did about four or five other projects post-graduation. Ayana Ford: So like, for example, for this Black student Center project, what was your direct role in getting this made? Jake Northington: Well my direct role was it was my idea to begin with, and I don't know if anybody’d thought of this before. Maybe they did, but it--and they weren't able to make it happen. And it took the right people. So like Sean Visintainer (Head of Special Collections, University Library), like John Rawlins (III, Director of the Black Student Center), it, you know, it took the right people. So the right people were here at the same time. And once the ideas got around, they were interested. Sean was interested. John was interested when I gave the idea to him. So then they started to spread out and build the team that we needed. We got a team of like five people. And with that team now, it's like, All right, let's get through the planning stage. So we spent six, eight months planning through the summer, through the winter to get through the planning stage. And then now reach out to hire students, point out all different people we needed to be involved as far as telling stories like this. And just to watch it all happen is it's just, I guess that might be more satisfying, I get to actually watch my idea happen like that. And I just hope everybody really can get something out of this, or at least get close to what I'm getting out of it. Because it's, I mean--to be a student that operates on campus and you're trying to be active and you're trying to make changes for your community? And then to see something like that happen when I knew it took years to get the Black Student Center! Years to even crack the door open. But then now this situation happened within a matter of a year, year and a half. And I'm like, Oh, this is, you know, this is great! And people are more apt to help and support--the email went out about, Hey, we're looking for students to be a part of this project and to do interviews and this, this, this, and then to start getting feedback like that, you know, I don't know if this could have happened in the same manner eight years ago, seventeen years ago. You know, the campus climate, the activities were a little different, so it just the right time and the right people. And we're able to pull this off. I mean this definitely on my resume (laughs). So it was one of the highlights on my resume to even have my name attached to this. So it--say after that, this is definitely up there. I think my, I like my books a little more, but, but this is up there. Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 28 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Ayana Ford: Well I’m glad you’re able to be a part of it. Jake Northington: Yeah. Ayana Ford: Thank you. Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 29 2024-05-16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northington, Jake. Interview transcript, April 6, 2021. Description An account of the resource Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumni. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. Jake worked in the Black Student Center and created photography that hangs in the Center. In this interview, Jake discusses his childhood growing up in East St. Louis, Illinois, how and when he came to CSUSM in 2016, and his involvement with the creation of the Black Student Center. This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jake Northington Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Ernest Cisneros Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-26 Subject The topic of the resource Artists, Black California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Students Portrait photography Student success Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant East Saint Louis (Ill.) San Marcos (Calif.) 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NorthingtonJake_FordAyana_2021-04-19_transcript Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5b54bf618e85a48ceaf7e13292022191.pdf 58abe16222e0b72af886c11325ebca9f PDF Text Text North County's 'Ubiquitous Photographer' Dan Rios Interview 2 with Alexa Clausen April 15, 2017, Escondido California Rios was Chief Photographer, Escondido Times-Advocate (1968 - 1994); North County Times (1995-2001) Alexa Clausen: This is April 15th, 2017. Session two with Dan Rios regarding his career as Chief Photographer with the (Escondido) Daily Times-Advocate. Now, Dan, we left off (last interview) having you hear about a job in Escondido, not really sure that you’d been to Escondido many times and going to a newsstand and literally picking up the paper. And then you were telling me how impressed you that the paper being so crisp and vivid. And that’s where we left you off. You literally went to a newspaper stand and grabbed a paper. So tell me your steps to getting hired. Dan Rios: Yeah. Well, I saw the paper and I was really amazed at how good it looked. So I was working for Mr. Boyd in Hillcrest, and on Monday I asked him if I could take the morning off to come and apply for the job. And I did. I drove down here. I met with Curt Babcock, who was the City Editor. He introduced me to George Cordry, assistant City Editor, and Ron Kenny, the Managing Editor. They interviewed me, they saw my portfolio, they saw my brag book and one question they kept repeating was, Did I know how to do color? Since I specialized in color the last year at school (Mesa College), I showed them my color brochure, that I had processed all the film, I had processed all the pictures and they seemed to be pleased with that. That was the end of that interview. Later that day they called and said I was hired and for me to come in the following Monday. AC: Could you give me a date on that? DR: That was the week that—that was 1968. I believe it was May, when Robert Kennedy was killed. AC: Oh my gosh. DR: I started working the week Robert Kennedy died. AC: He was assassinated in Los Angeles. DR: Yes. Yes, by Sirhan Sirhan. They asked me if I can come in on Monday and my shift would be from 7:00 o'clock in the morning until whenever. (chuckles) Whenever I was done. The only problem is I had an appointment with the DMV because I had gotten so many driving tickets. I had an appointment with them on that Monday, so I had asked them if I can postpone it for one day. They agreed. I didn't tell them why. The deal he gave me a one-year probationary period. One more ticket and my license was suspended. So, on Tuesday, the following week, I started. 1 �AC: Now let me ask you, were you replacing someone who had retired, or this was a new position for them? DR: They had only hired a part-time photographer. AC: They had a part-DR: And he had left three, four or five months before me coming here. They had a reporter by the name of Mary Jane Morgan who seemed to know the photography, seemed to know the processing, and she was doing some processing plus her reporting duties. She would process the film for the editorial staff. Because every reporter took their own pictures basically. There were pool cameras. And they went assignment, they took their own pictures, they brought the film in. Mary Jane would process it. In Advertising also they had a pool camera and they would do the same. So when I showed up on Tuesday, there was a stack of rolls of film for me to process. And get busy and organize the dark room and see what the supplies were—chemicals and paper and equipment. I got busy organizing it and started right in. I don't think I got my first assignment until about a week later. And I started--my first assignment--I remember my first assignment was at the Escondido Village Mall at the Walker Scot Pavilion there. Mrs. Purer, Edith Purer I think her name was. I think there’s a road by your-AC: Yes. DR: (unintelligible) Purer Road. Named after her family. And it was an art exhibit, art contest. So that was my first photograph. Of that. Subsequently I started doing a lot of dark room work in the morning and then shooting the afternoon assignments in the afternoon. I would shoot anything from mug shots to sports events, to society, to accidents, to trials. Everything except professional sports. I was never really much interested in professional sports. AC: And you'd have to what? You’d have to cover the (San Diego) Chargers? DR: No. AC: Where would they send you fort professional—they didn’t do much of that? DR: No. No. They relied on AP and UPI photos. AC: They bought them. Yeah. DR: Yeah, subscribed to those services and-AC: Had you moved to Escondido? Were you commuting? DR: No, I was commuting. I was getting up at five o' clock in the morning, had a little breakfast, get ready, get dressed. Get out at six and drive a two-lane road to Escondido. I 2 �would arrive at work, seven o'clock, work until I was done. Sometimes at work I would have a three, four hour lay-over because my shift would end, but a sporting event would come in. Or a society event would come in later in the day, in the evening. And I would have to stay for that. AC: Were you hourly or salary? DR: I was hourly. A very, very meager salary actually. Well that was one of the conditions that I accepted at work. I talked to my bosses and I said, “You know, you guys aren't paying me a lot of money, I need to earn more money. Am I going to be permitted to use the dark room for my own purposes, for moonlighting?” They said, Yes, no problem, whatever you want. The darkroom is yours after hours. AC: It's the plight of every artistic person. You know? The job and the labor of love. DR: I was fortunate. I got along with everybody, everybody was fantastic. It was just a great boss--Kirk Babcock, the city editor. He could understand my photography. He knew what I was going after and he would compliment me on that. So, it got to the point that it was all over town. And then one of my assignments, we had something called "The North County." (Times-Advocate North County magazine) Which was a Sunday supplement. A magazine type thing. Tabloid type thing. And I was in charge of providing the photography for the cover. Every week, besides my other assignments. There were days when I would scramble all over town trying to find something. It was mostly artsyfartsy stuff on the cover. Whatever I wanted. They never censored me. They never told me what they wanted. AC: Wow! DR: But it got to a point where I got to know the town. And I would drive a thousand, fifteen-hundred miles a month all over town, and all over the North County, and some assignments in San Diego--not too many. And I would shoot what they called "grab art." Whenever I saw something interesting, I’d take a picture of it. And eventually we had so many of those we couldn't even run them in the paper. And I suggested once that we run a special photo page. No theme, nothing. Just to use the pictures, and on Sunday it was a whole picture. And I came up with the name of "focal reflections." And they were just people, places, events, scenery. Just artsy stuff that I shot that we couldn't use in the paper. And we got a lot, a lot of comments on that. AC: When they were sending you on assignment, were you filling in between what the reporters were doing, or they were there own stories? So were you backing up an assignment of a journalist? DR: Well, most of the time I would go out with a journalist. He would ask questions, I would take pictures. Or if he had gone out and did the story, then they would assign me to go ahead and cover the story (unintelligible). A perfect example of that is--did I ever tell you about Rancho Guajome? AC: No. 3 �DR: Eloise Perkins, a historical writer grabbed a hold of me with both fists around my neck (laughs). And she would send me on assignments that she had problems with. And one day I was sitting around--there was two events she sent me on. One, I was sitting around. She said, “What are you doing?” I said, “I’m waiting for an assignment later this afternoon.” (She) says there is this adobe, an abandoned adobe in Vista. Would you go take pictures of it? She gave me the address and I found it. I walked all over the place taking pictures of it. It was collapsing, the floors were rotted, the walls were crumbling. AC: This was before the County bought it and restored it. DR: Yeah. It was just abandoned, I thought. I walked around. I must have spent an hour, hour and half. I went around the back, on the north end of it, there was a trailer there. This man walks out with a shotgun and asked me what the hell was I doing there? I showed him my credentials. I told him what I was doing. He told me he didn't care. He said, If I didn't get my rear end out of there in a hurry that he would start shooting. AC: Oh my god. Thank you, Eloise. DR: So, I got back to Eloise and Eloise just cracked up laughing. She said, “Did that nut threaten you?” I said, “Yeah!” She says, “He chased me away so many times I can't get through the-AC: So she sends you. DR: And those negatives are in the files. Two and a quarter-inch negatives of all that stuff. AC: You know, you did have—after we shut off the tape, a kind of a get to know Eloise, so I’ll type that up and we can add onto the-DR: Yeah. She did another one, another Eloise trick she did on me, was at Carrillo Ranch before it became anything. The old lady, Delpy I think her name was, was there. At that point I had a little fame going there at the (newspaper). That I could get along with old ladies. Old ladies and I had a rapport. They would offer me coffee, they would offer me tea, drinks—sodas, whatever. So, Eloise again played a trick on me. She says, Go see Mrs. Delpy at Carrillo Ranch. Take some pictures. So I got there, knocked on the door. She ushered me in, sat me down, offered me coffee, cookies. Told her what I wanted, what I do. She opened up these (photo) albums. with her mother, her stepmother, her stepfather, her family, (Leo) Carrillo, the gatherings, the movie stars. And I started taking copy, photographs of it. And I was there maybe two--two and a half hours talking with her. And eventually I went outside. The stables still were—still had the tack from the early days just rotting away in the stables. So, I again I showed up with Eloise and she’s laughing, said “How did you do with the old lady.” I says, “Great. You know, coffee, tea, cookies, conversation, she was fantastic.” She says, “Oh my god I can't believe it.” So I got a little history there with 4 �old ladies. I can handle old ladies, and I got along with them. I got along with everyone. I loved Escondido. The people were just fantastic. I never saw any prejudice on my part. I never experienced it. We had two Hispanic employees in the editorial room. Me and Joe Heredia, who had been there before I was. He subsequently--he had a heart attack and died on the job. AC: Oh my. DR: But--never any problem. I was getting to know people and at that point I had a pretty good memory. I could recognize faces and names. I got to know the city councilmen, most of the Fire Department. And they would call me when things were happening. I got to know the councilmen personally, the mayors, the city attorneys, and had a really good rapport. I loved the city. I loved the population. I loved the society people. They were so gracious. I remember once, they showed me—there was a—can't think of the charity—was a meeting. It was I think in the Fall or toward the Winter. And I showed up. I would pick on one person in a group and semi, lightly make fun of them. To loosen up the room. I wasn't mean, I wasn't vicious. AC: Just teasing. DR: Yeah, just teasing a little bit. So I got to this meeting there early and they were about to have lunch, and they invited me to have lunch. And I said sure. So I had a few snacks here and there and a cup of juice and sat down in front. They got done. And they sat them down and I picked on this one woman. And she was laughing, everyone was laughing. Just to loosen the group up. Then I went to get my IDs, left to right, front to back. And I get back one, the middle one. And her name—by the way the name of the owners (of the Times-Advocate) were Carlton and Applebee. Mrs. Applebee. AC: Now, Lucy (Berk) said—not Applegate? DR: No. Applebee. AC: Like the restaurant. Oh. DR: Applebee. So I got to the middle of the row and this woman. I asked her about her name. To give me her name. Oh god, I can’t remember her first name. An Applebee. And I dropped my pen and my pad of paper and looked at her says, “(and) that’s Mrs. Carlton?” She says, “Mm-hmm.” (Rios and Clausen laugh) AC: Oh they were the owners' wives. DR: Yeah, and I'm jiving with her, I’m teasing her, and I said, Oh god, that's the end of my job. Never brought it up. We became fast friends after that. AC: And this sounds like a style that worked for you to have people relax so you don't have those (stiff) photos. 5 �DR: Oh no no, I wouldn’t permit that. Wouldn’t permit hands in front of their bodies either, hiding their crotch. They had to hug people, put their hands in their hands, put hands on their backs. Couldn’t stand these people, just their hands just hanging down. AC: Now you did kind of refer to someone--was it Mr. Babcock--someone said that they liked your style, they knew what you were doing. DR: Yeah, Curt AC: Would you just expand on that a little bit? I'm assuming it’s like a methodology or an artistic approach. DR: Yes. I try to present a viewpoint. Semi-hidden, maybe not so hidden, but I always tried to present a viewpoint. Either through the angle or the lighting. A lot of the time I would take my own lighting. In fact somebody commented--they wrote me a letter that they liked my photography. It reminded them of the earlier photographers in the Midwest. They use to do that. Take multiple lights and set up a little lighting (unintelligible) they were portable. And that was my own device that I thought about. And Curt came up—in fact I was there about six months, and he came up to me, and slapped my back, he says, “How is my serendipity photographer.” No, no, no. Not serendipity. It was “ubiquitous.” “How is my ubiquitous photographer.” I had no idea what that meant. AC: You ran to the dictionary? DR: (laughs) Oh yes. AC: What did he mean? DR: That I was all over town, like a plague. AC: Oh! But it was a compliment. DR: Oh yeah. Yes, yes. I was covering everything. My photographs, I had four, five, six photographs in the paper daily. I was doing all the sports, society, the mug shots, and the features, and the artistics, and the grab art. As I said, I would work in the darkroom until noon, and the afternoon it was mine to do what I wanted to. I would do the assignments, do my own, do whatever. The following morning, I would come in to process all the film, do all the proof sheets. Start printing pictures for the advertising, and the editorial, and my own stuff. AC: Had they thought of getting you extra help? DR: They did. About a year later. AC: So, about 1970? 6 �DR: Uh-huh, about the middle of 1970. Well people would constantly apply. They would send their resume in. They would send their portfolios, a portion of them. At that point the paper was too small--the salaries were cheap to put it mildly. But I loved the place, and after a year I was planning to go back to San Diego, but I said there was no way I’m going back to San Diego. AC: Oh, you wanted to stay here. DR: Yes, I wanted to stay here. I loved the place, I tolerated the heat. So when they were wanting to hire, I saw this portfolio. Since as a youth, I was never involved in sports, never played sports. Not in school, not extra(curricular), never played sports and I wasn’t that familiar with them. I played softball in grade school, but you know that’s nothing. And then I saw the portfolio of this photographer, Jim Baird and it blew me away. The man was just a phenomenal photographer. And I went to Ron Kenny, I says “I want to hire this guy.” Because he loved sports. Which is something I didn't do and I didn't like! I said he could take that weight off my shoulders. And he could do it with an artistic flair that I could never do. And about that point the Padres had started playing at Petco Park—was called Jack Murphy, or San Diego stadium. AC: Yeah, the old Qualcomm-DR: Yes. And he would assign himself games because he loved it so much. And I was happier than he was for him to do it. And he did that. And eventually he wanted to do a lot of his own darkroom work and printings that was just fine. But it got to the point where I was doing too much darkroom, not enough photography. So, I went to Ron Kenny again, and I asked him if I can hire a lab tech. Then I could do all-day shooting. Between Baird and myself, we would do the assignments. Then the darkroom technician was Lowell Thorp. He was an older man. He was in his fifties I think at the time. So, he interviewed and he said he wanted no part of photography. He had done that at his previous job and he just wanted darkroom work. And the man was super meticulous. He would come in at five o'clock in the morning. And do all the film, all the proofs. People would hand in their proof sheets with their marked photographs and their crop, and he would supply them. He would hand them out, he would keep the inventory. AC: When do you think this was, what year? Because you said you-- (unintelligible) DR: Jim Baird. Yeah. Jim Baird. Maybe a year later. AC: So ‘71 maybe. DR: And he retired there (at the Times-Advocate), he worked I think fifteen years, retired there. At the end of the year he would produce the summary of all film, all the paper, all 7 �the chemicals, everything that was used in the darkroom. The guy was just meticulous, he just loved that place. AC: It was a little bit like his lab? Like his-DR: Oh it was his domain. Oh my god. If you worked there, he allowed you to work there, but you had better have it clean when you left. I remember when one time there was a reporter, I don't want to name his name, he works for the San Diego Union now. He liked to take his own pictures, and he was on the City Beat. He would get off the City Council Beat at ten-eleven o'clock at night, come in and process the film, print it, go home. Probably one-two o'clock in the morning, go home, come back maybe ten o'clock the following day. Well Lowell got in one day when this reporter had made a mess. He called him at 5 o'clock in the morning to get his butt in there, clean the place up because nothing was going to be done that day until he got there and cleaned his mess up. And he just sat until this reporter showed up. And he did clean the mess up and Lowell started working again. AC: How funny. DR: But he was picky, he was meticulous. He didn't care who worked there. Just clean your mess up. AC: It sounds like in a matter of three years, they hired you and then three-four years made an entire grouping of an entire photographic system from nothing. From having part-time photographers. So North County (San Diego) started a little boom at about the same time. DR: Oh yeah. It was flourishing. It was flourishing. AC: So that reflected in their demand for the newspaper. DR: Yeah. I don’t remember what year it was, early in the in the 70's. We won an award for the best layout in a newspaper regardless of size. And we were winning awards left and right. Editorial awards. I was never very competitive. I was never much into (photography) contests, after school. Didn’t interest me. I don’t know if I mentioned Edith Purer and her--I did join those a couple years. Printed some 16 x 20 prints, won first place, second place, third place in those events. After a couple years I stopped participating in that. AC: So that was your own artistic photography? DR: Yes. AC: What was your specialty, what did you like in your own work? DR: Just sceneries, evening shots, sunsets. AC: Color? 8 �DR: Yes, yes. Well no, not all color, some black and white. Would you like some water, I’m sorry-AC: No, thank you. DR: If I could take you to the computer, I’ve got a screen saver-AC: Okay. DR: --with some of my pictures. Thank you, Terry (for water). Some of my pictures that I like, that are put on there. On the—but mostly travel. When I was in school, in fact when I was in school, Mr. Dendle, my teacher asked me if I wanted to work for a traveling company, shooting landscapes for post cards, for different cities. That's all I would do is travel across the country photographing cities. AC: I’ll be darned. That’s how they did those, yeah-DR: Scenery, and cities and whatever-AC: Landmarks, museums, yeah. DR: Yeah. Send it to the company and they would ship it out to the cities in those stands that they had, those rotating stands. I said, no I wasn't interested in that. AC: Yeah, I like postcards. I don’t have a huge amount but I love it. I love it. DR: And I said, no, I didn’t. But I like scenery, sunsets and that kind of stuff. Nature. AC: I think—maybe people know this if you’re artistic but you have a job, finding time to have a life and your art is difficult. You know, writers do this, and other artists. That balancing the job, the family, and all that. So, had you moved to Escondido yet? DR: No. Was it? Well, yes, by that point. Because I--In getting up at five o'clock in the morning and driving to Escondido to be here at seven o'clock, and then working all day and driving back home--I was living in Hillcrest, and I would start dozing off. Two or three times I dozed off and woke up, so, this was not good. Because I was putting in eight, nine, ten hours a day. I’d have a split shift and work late at night and-AC: Did they start constructing I-15 yet? DR: No. I've got pictures of Rancho Bernardo with the cows in the pastures where West Bernardo is now. AC: Yeah. With cattle (unintelligible). DR: Yeah. Got pictures of those. 9 �AC: So, did they promote you, technically, were you-DR: No (Rios laughs), I was always Chief Photographer. It was just assumed I was Chief Photographer. There was no ceremony, there was nothing. When my cards came by, it was “Chief Photographer Dan Rios.” AC: Right. So they were too busy publishing a paper to get all these formalities. (Rios laughs) DR: Yeah. Oh yeah. AC: So once it (the Times-Advocate) grew to have a full shop, meaning, you're on assignments, you’re out of the darkroom, you have a tech guy, you have an assistant doing sports. Was-DR: No he was full time. AC: A full timer. DR: Full time, yeah. AC: So, was-DR: But he loved sports, specialized in sports which was good for me. AC: Was that the largest the staff ever got? DR: No. AC: Okay, so you’re still growing. DR: It continued to grow. After that we had some stringers. There was a man by the name of Mike Franklin who worked in the production department, who decided he wanted to be a photographer and bought a whole lot of equipment. And came in here and just picked our brains. He wanted to know so much while he was working and then on his days off, we’re talking about he would come back in the dark room and he would chat with Jim and myself about photography, lenses, cameras, film, processing, all kinds of stuff. He never had formal training, but his enthusiasm was just so overwhelming. Eventually, he was hired part time and then full time. And he was a great compliment. He was very good, very artistic. Hard working. AC: What was his name? DR: Mike Franklin. Hispanic. He was a hard, hard, hard worker. AC: Is this still 1970's? DR: Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. 10 �AC: Yeah, okay, so they—the paper’s expanding. DR: Right. Yeah. I will tell you how much it was expanding. Mr. Applebee had us all-everybody in the place--gather in the production department and he told us that he was going to give us a gift. He was starting a profit-sharing plan. Way back when. And he told us, early 70s? Maybe ‘72, ‘73? He told us then that by the time we all retired, if we stayed with the paper long enough, that we would have a lump sum of maybe $100,000 in our retirement fund. AC: And who knew the decline of the paper, huh? DR: Yeah. Soon after, because I think he sold the paper in ‘76, the profit sharing stopped. But those funds were kept up by the Chicago Tribune who bought the paper, and they invested in Chicago Union stock which did diddly forever. But even today I'm still receiving benefits from that retirement fund. A good portion of my retirement fund is Mr. Applebee. AC: Well good for him. It was the right thing to do. They couldn’t keep up a fancy salary, and you were working-DR: It was never fancy. But I made enough money on moonlighting—you were saying about the spouses—I would work all day and then take assignments. One of the editors would find jobs for you. A lot of jobs. But I would get a lot of jobs, people calling, do you do this? Sure, sure, sure, sure. And I would be working until twelve, one o'clock at night. AC: So when Applebee sells in the 70's, and you are now working for Chicago Tribune, did you sense a difference? Was there any-DR: Oh it was an earthquake of a change of a difference! They brought in a new publisher who brought in a new city managing editor, who got rid of 50% of the people in the place. At that point, ‘76 I think it was—myself, Jim, Mike, him, him, him—had six photographers on the staff when the paper sold. AC: And he let go half of them? DR: No. They started leaving by themselves. Jim Baird went to the Union, (San Diego Union Tribune), Mike Franklin went to the Union eventually, Sean Haffy later on who also went to the Union. Mike—not Mike Nelson, there was a Nelson character, also went to the Union. Some of them went to the L.A. Times after that. Another Hispanic, Manuel—Manuel something or other, forget his last name, was working there. AC: How did they backfill those jobs? Or was it back to you working crazy hours? DR: No, at that point the new regime that came in started laying off people left and right. And I was not--l had been a golden haired boy with Ron Kenney, and the old staff, and 11 �the Applebees. When the new staff came in, I was walking on quicksand because they were laying off so many people. I mean, they laid off half the staff for no reason! We had a city (editor) who was just an ass. Want me to name his name? AC: Sure. Well, its up to you. DR: Eh. A total ass. He would scream at people, verbally insulting people to their face because of their writing. He never did that to me. But I never trusted him, I never liked him. So about a year after the Chicago Tribune bought the paper, I was called up to the office to the publisher, John Armstrong. He told me I was no longer needed as the Chief Photographer. I could remain on the staff, same salary, same benefits, same hours. And no excuse. AC: So what was his point? DR: They would just fire people. Left and right. I think they wanted to get their own group. AC: Shake up everyone? DR: And before the city editor—oh, Tom Nolen, was the city editor’s name. He started the firing people after, I mean he was the one who would scream and yelling at people. And he would intimidate them, they would leave on their own. AC: Did these people come from another area? DR: All from the East Coast. AC: They were? DR: All from the East Coast. Chicago would just send them all down. In fact, all the comptrollers, all the business people. AC: So they wanted to move their own people here. DR: Oh yeah. They just moved their whole-AC: And get everyone that wanted out of Chicago to come here and have a job. Oh my. DR: And about that time—because working for the Applebees was a dream, it was a (dream) job come true. When Curt Babcock left—he went to the Albuquerque paper, George Cordry took it (Babcock’s position). And I used to tell my wife, if I ever have a dream job and a dream boss, it would be George Cordry, would be my boss. And a year later, he became my boss. And he was just a fantastic boss. AC: So things settle down? 12 �DR: Well, yeah, Ron Kenny—George Cordry was let go. All the City Editors were let go, they put their own staff in. Ron Kenney who had been Managing Editor, became Assistant Publisher and they gave him an office next to John Armstrong. Second floor, with absolutely nothing to do. No assignments, no writing, nothing. The gave an office, a desk, a phone, a typewriter. He said he read the San Diego Union from page to everything, the LA Times every day. Then he would go to lunch. Come back and sit around with nothing to do. Eventually-AC: So was that their way of letting go people without having benefits? I mean-DR: Well, I don't know what their deal was. When Applebee-AC: Not giving them unemployment? They didn’t want to give them unemployment? DR: I don’t know what the deal was. AC: Or the contract or something? The contract-DR: Maybe it was in the contract with Applebee. But what Applebee did when he sold the paper, I believe he sold it for $15 million dollars. He gave all the managers something like $100,000 each. AC: Bonus? DR: Yeah. And every employee—paid them $100 for every year they worked for the paper. Handed everybody checks before he left. And I don't know whether Ron Kenney, who was Assistant Publisher, what kind of deal he had, but he had his money and eventually he quit and moved to Pennsylvania, bought a little store, and I think he started a little store, hotel or motel. Eventually he came back and went to work for the San Diego Union as editorial writer. A good writer. Ron Kenny’s a good writer. AC: You know, I’m thinking, and you tell me, if this is this a good place to stop, because you know the transcription on 35 minutes—you know I’m going to be doing (unintelligible). But do you—is a good stop the Chicago Tribune years? DR: Sure. They were not fun. Not fun. In fact let me tell you a little story. When they moved in, after a year or so, one of my favorite reporters, Bob MacDonald, a columnist had retired and we would get coffee almost every morning. And I told him about my problems with the Chicago Tribune and with John Armstrong. How I was walking on eggshells. I didn't want to lose my job, my security. I loved the town. I didn't want to move anywhere. At that point I had family here, I had roots here, I didn’t want to go anywhere. So I talked to MacDonald about my problems and he said, “Do you like the job, do you like your work?” “Yeah, but they’re not giving me a whole lot of assignments.” Maybe one or two a day, where I was taking five, six, seven assignments. I was busy—you know, “ubiquitous Rios.” He said, “Tell you what, take their check, cash it, spend it, live it up. Don't worry about that. If they want to fire you, eventually they will. If they don't, they too will get fired some day.” And they did. Tom Nolen got canned. 13 �END SESSION 2 14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Dan. Interview transcript, April 15, 2017. Description An account of the resource Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. In this second interview conducted by Alexa Clausen, Dan Rios discusses starting work for the Escondido Times-Advocate and the beginning of his career at newspaper which was then owned by the Applebee and Carlton families. Rios discusses his work days, the paper's staffing, and his enjoyment in working for the Times-Advocate and in living in Escondido. Rios also discusses the selling of the newspaper to the Chicago Tribune Company and the changes that wrought with new editors, staff layoffs, and a much more difficult working environment. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniel Flores Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alexa Clausen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource Chicago Tribune (Firm) Escondido Times-Advocate (Escondido, Calif.) Photojournalists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-04-15_transcript Community history Latine experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/694828807984d331d6d9c34d9ef41c55.mp3 b0e3053193e3e877f17a5c3dfe7d6e7a Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spackman, Amy. Interview February 23, 2017. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Spackman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-066 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. community history Description An account of the resource Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-17 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) El Cajon (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Brewchive(r) Community history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Wagner OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Stone Brewing Company;Brewing history;Brewers;San Diego breweries;IPA OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. SC027-064 01:00:20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Stone Brewing Company ; Brewing history ; Brewers ; San Diego breweries ; IPA Steve Wagner Judith Downie audio 1.0:|18(14)|35(14)|50(7)|62(19)|73(3)|91(19)|104(5)|128(4)|146(11)|162(19)|175(12)|196(3)|208(16)|227(11)|244(8)|265(16)|290(2)|310(11)|322(7)|343(9)|360(13)|375(11)|390(12)|413(13)|427(3)|444(5)|463(15)|477(15)|493(19)|505(13)|523(17)|540(9)|568(4)|591(3)|613(16)|629(11)|637(10)|654(5)|669(14)|684(6)|699(10)|721(10)|739(6)|754(15)|773(2)|787(16)|803(15)|820(9)|842(6)|856(5)|875(17)|896(12)|918(19)|933(7)|945(10)|966(14)|986(15)|998(10)|1016(10)|1030(6)|1036(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4c12a198b29a2ac447131d9f6636ed05.mp3 Other audio Oral history Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Judith Downie: Today is October 24th, 2018. Judith Downie interviewer for the CSUSM Brewchive® with Steve Wagner, co-founder and co-owner of Stone Brewing. Steve Wagner: (Aside to office staff) Okay. Don't have to worry about that. Alright, great. Downie: So if you will first state your name and position. Wagner: Okay. This is Steve Wagner, I am the cofounder and president of Stone Brewing Company. Downie: Okay. And so if we could get into a little bit of your own background, what the path that led you to Stone would be very informative. Wagner: Yes, absolutely. My story starts in Evanston, Illinois suburb of Chicago where I was born. 1958 and my parents had attended Northwestern University. So, I grew up in the Chicago area until I was about 10 years old and my family moved to Los Angeles, California. My father took a job with Mattel Toy Company , which was very exciting for me and my brothers. In fact, I think that's where my first entrepreneurial venture was. I would get some of the new Hot Wheels™ cars before they were released and I would sell them to my school mates, at highly inflated prices because they were collecting them and they could get them before they came out. Downie: Yeah, hot demand for something nobody else had. Boy, you were doing it… Wagner: It was better, I made more money than the lemonade stand. I'll put it that way. Downie: Now of course, did you ever get into trouble for doing that either from Mattel or from the school because you were conducting business on school property? Wagner: Nope. Never got caught. So, okay, let's see. So, interests before brewing. While I was a lifelong musician, I started studying piano growing up in Chicago. When I think when I was six years old, I started taking piano lessons and played all the way through high school, had some incredible teachers and actually in high school I started playing some guitar and bass and started playing in some bands, some high school bands. And then, college I went to UC Santa Cruz. So, I was an English lit major and still played some music, with some friends and things. And then after college I moved back to Los Angeles and I was working in some restaurants and, you know, basically trying to figure out what to do and ended up meeting some other musicians at a party and we decided to form a band. And that was the beginning of the Balancing Act, which was the, I guess you'd say, the most successful band I was in. We ended up self-producing our first record and putting it out on our own label. So again, some, good entrepreneurial experience. Downie: So was this an LP? Wagner: It was an EP actually , an extended play. It was six songs I believe were on it. Just vinyl, this was right before CDs kind of became the new format. And, yeah, it was fun and we got some nice critical recognition and acclaim and, you know, played a lot in, in Southern California. And then, we actually got signed to I.R.S. records, which was a pretty cool record label at that time. And we ended up recording and releasing two albums for that label. Got to tour all over the US multiple times and every college town now I think in the US. (laughs) Those were our people. Downie: And so this was still as The Balancing Act? Wagner: Yes. Yep. And so, yeah, it was, it was a really great experience and it was four of us and we all wrote songs and sang. It was very much a collective and we had a lot of fun. Yeah, let's see. So, then I started, uh, I think that band, eventually we went our separate ways and I played in some other groups, a band in LA called the Bedshredders and another band called Walker Stories. I did some studio work and played, you know, played on recordings for other people and things like that. But I was kind of at that point thinking, okay, I was, I got married. I was not that keen to go back out on tour and on the road and do things like that. So, I was trying to think of what the next step in my career would be. And one of the guys in, actually I played with in both the Bedshredders and Walker Stories invited me over to do some homebrewing at his house. He was a homebrewer and I went over and did that and was immediately captivated by the process of brewing your own beer. I was already a beer fan and I mean, my touring days, you know, you'd always get, the band would get, a case of beer and I’d like try to get them to give us something, you know, a little out of the ordinary or something local. But there wasn't much choice in those days, but still enjoyed it. Downie: This would have been about what year? Wagner: This was the mid to late eighties, early nineties. Downie: So craft brewing is just starting to get a hold in places? Wagner: Yeah, you know, Sierra Nevada was around, but I think they were still really only California probably. Yeah, there were a few other things, but not much. So, let's see. So, yeah, I started homebrewing on my own ‘cause I wanted to do it more often and you know, really read up and studied as much as I could about it and brewed a lot and joined some Homebrew clubs in Los Angeles and really tried to learn as much as I could about it and do it in my spare time . And, as part of that journey, I wanted to, they were offering classes at (University of California) Davis in Northern California, extension classes on advanced home brewing and sensory evaluation of beer. And so I decided to make the trip up there one weekend to, you know, try to learn some more and check out the school up there. And so I went, I think on a Friday there was an advanced home brewing class that I went to and then on Saturday it was the sensory evaluation of beer class. And I look across the room and I see this long-haired guy and I go, ‘Wait a minute, that's my rock and roll landlord, Greg Koch.’ And it was funny, you know, I didn't, it was out of context and I think it took me a little while to figure out who it was and I'm like, ‘Oh yeah’, ‘cause we didn't know each other that well. We were acquaintances. Because he tells the story, he didn't know me that well ‘cause my band actually paid that rent on time. So, we rented music rehearsal space from his company. Downie: Now this was the LA location? Wagner: Yeah, downtown Los Angeles. Downie: There was a San Francisco location for a while. Wagner: Yeah. This was the downtown Los Angeles location. And so, you know, when we had the first break I went up and said hi and we started talking a little bit and realized we had a mutual interest in beer and craft beer and everything. And it was, it was cool. That as part of the sensory evaluation class, If you were a homebrewer, they said bring your beer and we'll taste it. And I had brought some of my beers and we tasted them and people liked them. Greg really liked them. Ironically, it was, you know, since we were such an anti-fruit beer brewery in the beginning, it was a peach ale that I had made, ‘cause I was actually, one of my side jobs when I was a musician, was working for a farmer who came down for the Santa Monica farmer's market and I would sell his stone fruits, peaches and stuff. And so I got some awesome peaches and I decided to make a beer out of it. So funny. Downie: So leading the way with fruit beer. Wagner: Yup. Yup. And so yeah, I think, you know, that's sort of me running into him there and drinking some beers together and stuff. You know, here this guy was a successful entrepreneur, and I was interested in getting into beer and we, you know, we started talking about maybe we should start our own brewery. I think we were both back in LA and we, you know, we did some home brews together and just kinda hung out together and started talking about things and seeing if we could see a way to do, you know, to start our brewery. So. Downie: Yeah. So Davis I think was in ‘94, ’93? Wagner: ’93 I think. I'm gonna say ‘93. Downie: I've got Greg’s textbooks from that. Wagner: Well we went back for some additional classes too. That might've been in ‘94, but I think that initial one was before that. Downie: So it really considering that Stone itself opened up in mid-year 1996... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You worked on a pretty fast track to get Stone up and going. It seems like compared to what I'm seeing for some breweries now. Wagner: Yeah. I don't know. It felt like a pretty deliberate track to me ‘cause I actually, you know, in, in between there, I moved up to, had an opportunity to house sit for my brother and his soon to be wife up in Portland because they were taking the better part of a year off as a sabbatical. They both worked for Intel. They needed somebody to house sit for them. And so my wife Laura and I volunteered to go up and do that. And it, part of my thinking was, well, I'll find a job at a brewery up there, you know, get some hands-on experience and really make sure I, I enjoy the work and, you know, am as passionate about the work as I think I would be, you know. Yeah, so I think that was Spring of ‘94 that we moved up there and landed a job brewing for Pyramid shortly thereafter. Up in Kalama, Washington, you know, 30-minute commute North of Portland. And yeah, started, I mean I think I had two weeks of training and then they handed me the keys for the midnight night shift, the lone brewer in this pretty sizable plant at that point I was like, “Wow, this is happening pretty fast.’ But uh, Downie: How big was Pyramid? How many barrels do you remember? Wagner: I think they did about 90,000 barrels when I was there in ‘90. I was there through fall of ‘95, I guess. So, a little over a year, year and a half of it. It was great experience and I really loved, loved the work. You know, just the hands on of brewing and being part of a brewery like that. I had a lot of great mentors that I was able to learn a lot from . It was everything I had hoped it would be. In fact, I enjoyed it so much. I was happy to just keep working there. And eventually Greg got impatient like, ’Are we gonna do this or what?’ But I was like, ‘I don't know, I've enjoyed living in Portland.’ Downie: Yeah, it’s beautiful up there. Wagner: I’m enjoying working for a brewery, but you know, I realized ‘Yeah if we're going to do this, we need to do it.’ So, you know, so in some ways to me that seems like a longer timeline because I actually, you know, took the time to go get some hands-on experience and do that rather than just, ah, you know (inaudible). Downie: That was a very good deliberate move though to make sure that, you know, it wasn't just the activity of brewing but you could actually face the day-to-day work. Wagner: Yeah. Yup and it really helped me in, you know, shopping for our original equipment and putting the brewery together and how we wanted to do things and Pyramid had a pretty good focus on quality of their beer. And, you know, so that became one of our things at Stone too, was to, to create really consistent beers and beers that had decent shelf life. You know, the people would have the same experience every time they tried one. And that, that ended up being crucial for us because, you know, opening in 1996, that was kinda the beginning of the first shakeout in craft beer where a lot of people had rushed in who maybe didn't have brewing expertise and were looking to be quick buck and stuff. And there was a lot of issues with, you know, bad beer out there that wasn't consistent or had off flavors or different things. And so you know, I think that the time I spent at Pyramid really benefited us. The ability to pull off quality and consistency. So, because you know, when we first opened Stone and go out to try to sell our beer, I mean, Greg was the, you know, he was our lone salesman at the time. That's what I mean, he'd go out or it was all these, a lot of people who didn't want to take craft beer, they said, ‘No, we've done it’s a fad. You know , it's like the beer never tasted the same twice or you couldn't deliver it when we needed it. So we're not doing that anymore, you know?’ So that's what we were up against when we started the company. It was possibly the worst possible time to start it. Downie: Well, you sink or swim. Wagner: Yep, exactly. Downie: And so since you've been talking about your education, did you do any other education after opening Stone or were you just so busy with running Stone? Wagner: You know, before we had opened Stone, Greg and I would go to the craft brewers conference, the national conference, the annual conference. So, we would go to that every year. And as part of that, you know, obviously there there's a trade show, but they also do a lot of educational seminars and things like that. So, continued to take advantage of that. Even in the early days we would go to that and helped us keep up with what was happening in, you know, brewing techniques and science and equipment and stuff. Um, I'm trying to remember. I think I might have taken some other classes, but I think they might've been more finance- and accounting-focused because I had sort of assumed that hat in the brewery too, you know. It was interesting the dynamics when you start, at first I felt like all the pressure was on me, you know, to order the brewery equipment, get it installed, get it, get it working, get the beer to where I want it, you know, get the beer brewed and then all of a sudden all the pressure shifts to Greg. Right. It's like, ‘Well, here's all these kegs. You better go sell it.’ (Wagner and Downie laugh.) And to his credit, you know, he did it. But at that time, you know, maybe I was only brewing once a week or something. So, I took on the task of, you know, the invoices are coming in and collecting payments and paying our vendors and doing all that and just getting into the, you know, the accounting, finance end of it. And uh, never had really had experience doing that. But I kind of learned by doing and I realized I enjoyed being familiar with the numbers and understanding what was happening to the company, financially. So I really, you know, kind of had a… Downie: Somebody who got to watch those numbers. Wagner: Yes. Yup. It was important. Downie: So that does kind of answer down here in the Stone section. I did ask about your role in Stone's early years besides brewing. And of course, I have photographs from Greg's collection of all of you doing stuff. You know, building and you know, moving equipment and all that sort of thing. Wagner: Yeah. ‘Cause you know Greg had construction experience from building his rehearsal studio and that sort of stuff. So, he, he was very savvy with contractors and how to do that kind of stuff. So I focused more on, you know, figuring out the right brewery equipment for us and finding the best deal on that and getting it shipped. And he did a lot of the, you know, the construction stuff that we needed at the brewery, the trench drains, the different things. Downie: Was there ever a discussion between you and Greg about how the jobs were going to fall out or you just said, Greg, you've got the MBA, you've got , you know, and you just kind of naturally took that on and like you say, you were brewing once a week, so somebody had to deal with the invoicing, and all of the rest. Wagner: You know, there was always more than, you know, there was always too much to do. So it was, it was very much a chip in where you could ever, you could help type of situation, you know, whether it was deliver your keg to a customer who had run out over the weekend or something. You know, we both did a lot of that. You know, I would go out and do sales calls and things too, you know, to, to try to expand our, our impact. Yeah, it's very much a, you do whatever it takes type of thing. Downie: And Pizza Port was the first, in Solana Beach, was the first location to take a keg? Wagner: Yep. Yep. Downie: ‘Cause I've seen the plaque down there. Wagner: Yep. Yep. Greg, he tells a good story about that too. It gave us a very unrealistic view of the distribution business because they came and picked up the first keg ‘cause they wanted to be the first. We are like, ‘Oh this is easy. Everybody just comes to you and gets it.’ Right. Downie: Yeah. There you go. Wagner: That might've been the last time anybody did that. Downie: Other than maybe somebody picked up a keg for their own personal party, you know? Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You know you learn as you go along because that's really, there were so few models for a craft brewery, you know, a smaller brewery. You know, you can't take the models that work for AB (Anheuser Busch) or anybody else and apply them to you. It just doesn't work. Okay. So, um, we'll jump back up the list here. How, how, and why the name Stone Brewing. Oh good. You're laughing. Wagner: You can see the list of the names from the wheat beer that we did. We, we came up with a lot of names and we disagreed quite a bit about names, you know, I think, which was good. It kind of helped us make sure that we came up with something that we both thought was good and that usually it was better than something that only one of us thought was good. So , we went through a lot of lists of names and a lot of rejection of names that that didn't work for us. And, you know, I mean we came up on a deadline, right? We had called our corporation Koochenvagners kind of a play out our two names, but we're coming up to a deadline to, you know, we wanted to release a beer and we didn't have a name yet. And so we're feeling the pressure of that. And I think Greg came in with the name Stone one day. I think he might've had umlauts over it or something like that. (Laughs.) But, but there was something about it that I liked that it was just a simple and kind of classic and, not tied geographically to any place, you know, because we weren't sure we wanted that. We didn't, you know, there already was a San Diego Brewing Company, there already was a San Marcos Brewing Company. We kind of wanted to do something different. So, and I think also it stimulated a lot of kind of creative marketing ideas too. You know, the, you know, that as we thought of things that were made of stone and that the gargoyle kind of came out of that and our, you know, original tap handles were beach stones that we'd collect at the beach, which is probably illegal now, but we don't do it anymore. Yeah. It's funny because one of the (laughs) Downie: Probably the statute of limitations is out by now. Wagner: We started draft only, so we didn't have bottles, but one of the, the ideas that I came up with, you know, as we were thinking of slogans and stuff was, well Greg, our first one was “Welcome to the Stone Age”, you know, which is Greg's, which is kind of clever. I like that one. But I came up with one “Leave no stone unturned”, which we never actually used that. But now it's like a, you know we’re in a lawsuit with Keystone (MillerCoors) about them shortening their name to Stone. Now, they use that actually, which is funny. Downie: Oh, okay. Wagner: (Laughs.) A little side humor here. Downie: You know, that's an old, old, old phrase, you know, whoever decides to trademark gets it. And so you kind of said how the gargoyle because it's made of stone, became the representation. And also there's certainly text on the early bottles explaining, you know, the gargoyle protecting from bad taste and sort of… Wagner: I think we kinda felt like we needed to explain it ‘cause people like thought that it was the devil or something. I don't know what gargoyles actually do. You know, they protect them in their own churches. They protect against evil spirits. And so, you know, Greg and his creative mind kind of turned it into this protecting our beer from the evil spirits of cheap adjuncts and materials. Downie: That's a very good way explain it. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: And to eradicate the devil situation. Um, so, and you kind of talked about dealing with distribution issues. What about dealing with suppliers? I mean , since you were a smaller brewery again. Yeah. And was there much locally available or did you have to go far afield? Wagner: We had to go pretty far afield for, you know, no matter what it was brewing equipment, you know, raw materials. Obviously hops mostly came from, you know, Washington and Oregon. Malted barley came from, you know, Canada or the upper plains States in the US and, uh, even our water came from Colorado probably. (Laughter) Right. Yeah. You know, there were, there were people locally who could do good tradeswork and stuff. You know, we had, we had wonderful, uh, stainless steel welders and plumbers and you know, just great contractors and people to work with here locally in San Diego. But… Downie: But the actual supplies were another story… Wagner: Yep. That comes from the places that, you know, that's, that's tricky when you're not ordering a lot and you're trying to, you know, protect cashflow and things that you could, you know, you can find yourself short sometimes and critical moments. But you know, that's one of the, what are the cool things about craft beer that we found out very early on is that people are very supportive. And fellow brewers, you know, obviously Pizza Port, you know, Gina and Vince (Marsaglia). I mean they had their own brewery and their own place and still they wanted to serve our beer, you know, help us out and just, just passionate about good craft beer. So that's willingness to help and to, you know, sell somebody a bag of malt if they come up short or some hops or things like that. It still carries on to this day, which is pretty incredible. A lot of businesses like that. Downie: Well, I mean, I have the articles, copy of the articles of incorporation for the San Diego Brewers Guild from 1996 with Greg’s signature on it. And so that shows that, you know, early on there was this established environment of work together and cooperate or it's not going to happen, which I think was just really essential to the success of San Diego craft brewing. Wagner: Definitely. Downie: ‘Cause I get, I get that question from people elsewhere. It's like, ‘Well, why San Diego?’ And it's like, well I know that they've always collaborated with each other. When you don't fight with each other, you can spend your energy doing better things, hopefully surviving, you know. And so, how has your role changed over the years? You know, I mean early on you were, you know, were of course doing the brewing, but when I talked to you one time I asked when was the last time you brewed and you just kind of went, ‘I don’t know.’ Wagner: I am actually brewing tomorrow. Downie: Oh good! Good for you. Wagner: Probably ‘cause you asked me that. I'm like, gosh, it's been too long. Downie: You have to get back to your roots once in a while. Wagner: Yeah, definitely. Um, so let's see. How has my role changed? Yeah, I mean like in the, you know, in the early years, besides doing , I mean for the first six months or so, I did all the production work, you know, the brewing, the filtering, the packaging, everything, and then, you know, gradually was able to get some part time help and, you know, because I ended up managing the distribution part of things, you know, just the, the logistics and the managing the drivers and the warehouse. You know, as we started to add people. At first I think we just had drivers pull the beer and load their own truck and um, you know, manage the flow of invoicing and payments, and then accounts receivable, accounts payable, Human Resources. And to start doing that, you know, I was doing payroll and everything. So kind of doing all the operations and back office stuff. While Greg was out selling and he, you know, continued to create marketing momentum for us with all of his great ideas and things. Downie: So at what point did you formalize the HR and like release doing the payroll and things like that? Wagner: Yeah, I mean, we didn't, yeah, we probably waited too long to get some professional HR help. Yeah, at one point, I promoted my assistant, I had a kind of an assistant who was, you know, sort of an office manager type person to doing payroll and of some of the basic HR filings and stuff like that. But, yeah, I'm trying to remember how that transitioned exactly. But gradually we, we realized, you know, that it's a, it's something that needs to be done by the book and you know, somebody needs to pay attention to it very carefully. And so, we started hiring professional folks to do that. Downie: There are so many facets besides the brewing that, you know, really have legal ramifications if nothing else. And then, you know, employee climate. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Do you want to make sure you're doing things right and your employees are happy? Wagner: Yeah, absolutely. Wagner: So, yeah. Um, yeah, that's, that's one area that's gotten a lot more complex and difficult in the 22 years that we've been in business too. You know, plus as your company grows there, you know, a lot more rules and laws come into play. Right. When you're smaller kind of, you know, when you're under 10 people, it's pretty simple. When you're between 10 and 50, it gets more complex once you’re over 50 that it's, you know, you get the whole rule book thrown it. It was a lot to keep track of and lots to make sure you're doing right. Downie: Well, something I've gotten a sense of from just the photographs I was going through to scan for the documentary (The Beer Jesus from America), it seemed like there were a lot of events for employees. You know, either charity events like Dye Your Head Red. Um, there was also something where people had green hair at one point? Wagner: Well, we were doing it, I don't know if we did it every year, but at one point we're doing it every other year and we would change the color each time we did it. So, it would kind of rotate between blue, red, or green. Downie: Okay. I haven't seen any blue hair photographs, but there's a very distinct one where Lee Chase was walking around and obviously they had had to bleach his hair white in order to dye it green and it was up in what I call ‘the Smurf comb up’, you know, and it's like, wow, that's, that's really throwing himself into the green hair thing. But it seemed like it was something that the employees could get into and have some fun. But you also had a charity element. So, did Stone have a charity element from the beginning? Wagner: Uh, from our, yeah, I mean, because, you know, we, we realized early on, it's one of the best ways to get your brewery name out there is that, you know, California law allows brewers to donate beer to charities for their events. And so , um, you know, that became our grassroots marketing. We didn't have money to spend on marketing. You know, we're not buying advertising or anything. We still don't do that. But it was a low-cost way to get out there and tell our story, you know. So, we would, um, donate beer to these events and then we'd go and set up a booth and you know, pour the beer and tell people about us. And, uh, you know, it was just word of mouth that, you know, it's great, ‘cause people get sample the beer and taste and decide if they like it, but also they see you're out supporting the community in supporting nonprofits and things. So it was really an effective way to, to market and grow our company. And it's, you know, just sort of something Greg and I like to do anyways, you know, be involved in. Downie: Yeah. And it certainly has established a model where you see a lot of that going on now with even the very tiny, tiny craft breweries, which is wonderful. You know, charities need all the help they can get. Wagner: So that was the sort of the turning point was, I guess it was our second anniversary ‘cause our first anniversary we just had it within the brewery, you know, our licensed operations area. ‘Cause it was, you know, pretty small and we didn't charge admission or anything. And, but then the second year we, you know, we wanted to make it bigger and have more people and so to do, in order to do that you have to partner with a charity. They have to pull a special one-day license to allow you to, we wanted to take over a little bit in the parking lot to have our anniversary. And so that's kind of what started it. You know, we went to the, to the mayor I think in San Marcos and said, you know, we need a charity partner that we can partner with to do this anniversary party that we want to do. They said, ‘You know, Boys and Girls Club San Marcos is best organization in town. So why don’t you talk to them?’ That's, you know, they ended up getting me on the Board of Directors for 10 years there. A couple, couple terms as chair of the board and we continue to support them because it's a, you know, great organization that's doing wonderful work for them, the youth of San Marcos. Downie: So there are so many, how do you spread yourself and how do you choose between all of these very deserving causes? Wagner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does get difficult. And so we're kind of in the mode now or, I mean the good news is that there's a lot more brewers in town too. So, it's like if we say we, you know, we're already supporting the maximum number of organizations we can right now. We can't take on another one, but here's some other great local brewers that would likely be happy to support them. Downie: Again, part of that collaboration and directing people, you know, whenever I worked with somebody and I can't give them what they need in the way of research help, I try to get them somewhere where they can. I mean that's just, I think that's just good humanity if nothing else. So excellent. Wagner: But that was kind of where it turned from, you know, us supporting the nonprofits by donating beer to them, to us realizing, you know, it's our anniversary, but it became more popular and we partnered with a charity that we could charge admission and raise this money and then raise our own funds to give to the, the nonprofits that's become, you know, really the way we create most of the funding that we do for local non-profits. Downie: I’m a member of Society of Barley Engineers they’re very tolerant of my dumb questions about brewing and they're always real pleased to be involved with, you know, homebrewing the sodas that you know are good for the designated driver. Wagner: They always do some really crazy stuff too. It fits in well. Downie: With the 21st Anniversary, I was walking around and I saw a young, obviously quite pregnant young woman and her three friends were all drinking. So obviously she was the designated driver and I said, ‘Do you realize that there is non-alcoholic soda here that you can have?’ ‘Cause she wasn't drinking. It's like kind of, you need to stay hydrated. She was like, ‘Oh great!’ You know, so she was able to get something. Wagner: They always have some amazing ones too. I always try them when I’m there. They're just… Downie: Yeah, they pride themselves on, you know, coming up with something new and different. And a couple of the Barley Engineers now have collaborated with Stone on beers. Chris Banker with Xocovesa and Corey Magers with Mojay. I don't know of any others, but then I haven't really surveyed the home brewing clubs to see who else has done this. Wagner: I’m not sure who else from the Society of Barley Engineers. Downie: It's on my list of, you know, further research. Wagner: There's definitely some other, there's some folks from QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity). I think some other ones too, that uh, won the homebrewers contest that we do. So yeah. Downie: When did you start the homebrewers contest, do you remember? Wagner: Gosh, that's a good question. Downie: I know it's hard to ask for dates. Wagner: Well, it wasn't until we had the bistro (located in Escondido) open ‘cause we would do it at the bistro. So, it was either 2007 probably would have been the earliest . But yeah, it certainly wasn't long after that, I can look back at the beers probably and find out when we released the first beer, which is probably the Ken Schmidt, the coconut porter. Downie: I think somebody who said… Wagner: ‘Maui Ken’ Schmidt. So, the original that I can find that out. Downie: Yeah. I have people ask me things like that. You know, when was the first this, when was the first that I'm like… Wagner: It’s not in here is it (referring to Stone timeline from their website)? Downie: I don't remember how far. I think that ends about 2006 on most of its information. Wagner: So the AleSmith/Mikkeller/Stone (collaboration beer)/ Let's see. We did some with brewers that says the Ken Schmidt one was 2009. Downie: Okay. Wagner: That was the winner of the Stone Age. That might've been the first one. Downie: Okay. Oh, of course they'll remember. Wagner: ‘Cause then we did the 2010 was with Kelsey McNair, I think he was in QUAFF. Right. And he started North Park. Downie: Yeah. He would've been in QUAFF. Wagner: North Park Beer Company that says. Yeah. Downie: Okay. I see. Good thing I brought that list. So, when you started Stone, you started with the IPA? Wagner: Well, Stone Pale Ale. Downie: Stone Pale Ale, okay. Downie: And then where did Arrogant Bastard fall in, into your first beers? Wagner: So the Stone Pale Ale was the first beer, released in July of ‘96 and then our second beer was, we did a, a seasonal called Winter Stone that I think was probably released in November of that year. And then we ended up keeping it around ‘cause we had a few customers who really liked it on draft. And so we changed the name to Stone Smoked Porter and kept brewing it. So that was our second beer. Downie: Stone Smoked Porter ‘cause I've seen those bottles and I think I've seen a Winter Stone. Wagner: Yeah. And now I'm talking about the year-round beers. So there may have been a couple of other ones in there. But then the Stone IPA was released on our first anniversary, so July of ‘97. So that was our third full time beer. And then I don't think Arrogant Bastard came out until 1998, till November of ‘98 I believe. We had the other year-round beers because we started doing some bottling then. Yeah. Just keeping up with what we had. Downie: So it was late ‘98 when you started bottling? Wagner: (paper rustling) I believe so. Okay. I'll confirm that . I think it's pretty sure it's (November of ’98). Downie: Well since when I asked you about that date code on the bottles and you made the very good point that that was probably when the bottles were printed, not when they were filled. I was like, ‘Oh yeah, that would make perfectly good sense.’ Okay. Now I don't even have to worry about the dates on the bottle anymore because that can be from any time really. That was, there went, a myth ‘cause I saw Chris Cochran, just after that and I said, well Chris, because Chris and Greg and both said, we think this is when the bottles were when beers were brewed. I said, well, Steve says, because you bought bottles and they sat in the warehouse, he goes, Oh, okay. So you know, busting that mythology there, which brings me to… Wagner: Yeah we used to put the date on the case boxes at first. You know, we didn't have the technology to put it actually on the bottle. It was, we were doing these little (inaudible) bottling machines. Downie: Yeah, yeah. You're, you're running lean and mean. You've got to get it out there. Yeah. But that does bring me to another mythology which, how Arrogant Bastard was born. You know, the higher hopped beer. I have heard from people who of course want to speak with some authority, but you would be the authority, that you accidentally double hopped a batch of beer. Wagner: I did. That is absolutely true. I think everybody agrees on that. You know, we were working out of Greg's condo in Solana Beach to, you know, start the business basically. And I was doing a lot of research on equipment and then I was also doing some pilot batches to, you know, work on some, some recipes for some of the beers. And we had, I had my own kind of homebrew equipment, then we invested in a nicer system that a little bit more capacity, I think it was like a 10-gallon system or something like that. It's, so it was one of the first brews I was doing on that system. And so all my calculations changed on volume bitterness units and all that stuff. I screwed up the first calculation and I way over hopped this beer. (Laughs) Downie: But then you didn't release the results of this mistake until a couple of years after being established. Wagner: We have differing opinions, Greg and I recall it differently because we definitely know I screwed it up. The question was, I think I thought I realized it right at the time and I just wanted to dump the batch, you know, Greg said, to my memory Greg said, ‘No, let's, you know, you've already made it. We might as well let it ferment and then we’ll bottle it. And then Greg's memory of it is that I didn't realize it until we tasted the bottles and then it's like, ‘Ah, geez, I messed this one up.’ and Greg is ‘This is the best beer I've ever had.’ Downie: Okay. Well it's nice to actually be able to say definitively that part that, that mythology is true. And so what is your role in developing new beers now? Wagner: You know what, I don't have a huge role other than, you know, tasting the new stuff that we come up with. Maybe making some comments here and there if there's things that I don't think are quite, quite what we're looking for, but, we have a super creative team and I'm happy to enjoy the fruits of their labors. We've got an innovation team with three guys, Chris Ketchum and Jeremy Moynier and Steve Gonzalez. They're just making unbelievable beers. It used to be such pressure for me to come up with a new beer as well, you know, doing all this other work in my day job and all this stuff. It's kind of nice when we got to that point where other people can contribute. You know, Lee Chase was the first who helped out with that. And then Mitch Steele came on board. You really embrace that, which is nice for me because… Downie: Speaking of Mitch (Steele) and Lee (Chase), did they start as volunteers or did they start as paid employees? Wagner: Yeah, I don't think we had volunteers that I recall. Lee started part time ‘cause he was, you know, he had been working at Brewers Union down in San Diego, the brew-your-own place and then I think he was working at White Labs too, maybe even doing some stuff for Pizza Port. But yeah, we hired him part time to help me with the brewing and kegging stuff ‘cause I just couldn't keep up with everything. Then eventually we got to the point where we're able to make him full time. Downie: And then he went out on his own. Wagner: Great job of growing with us for a long time. He was with us for 10 years or something. Super creative guy. Yeah, doing great on his own. Downie: Yeah. And he's a, he's another hard person to reach. But I am persistent. If nothing else, it does pay off eventually. What happened to your early brewing equipment? Wagner: Uh, my earliest brewing equipment, I actually have it. Yeah, do you want it? my musician friend, The guy Doug Freeman, still mine who invited me to homebrew with we, uh, I have that equipment actually. Downie: Yeah. If it's not as big as this (holds arms out indicating the current brewhouse), Wagner: it’s a 5 gallon. Downie: I would love to have it. That would be wonderful. Oh, I would love to have it because that's one thing I don't have is you know, equipment because that's kind of a space factor. But the, where it all started very first time, that would be…Oh, that would be so incredible, that that would just be so much fun. Wagner: Alright, it would make my wife very happy. Downie: And I'm sure, yeah. That's what I get from a number of the wives of brewers. It's like, ‘Oh, you'll only take that much?’ Oh, I can only take so much and I don't want anything that is not San Diego related. I'm sorry ‘cause I have women going, ‘He's got a hundred growlers and they're from all over the country.’ The boss has told me to stop collecting growlers. I’ve got about 45 so far. But the artwork on them is so incredible, you know, I mean I think just everything that you do to represent yourself says so much. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: It's like Karl Strauss and Ballast Point and they've changed their logos. They've changed their stories a little bit. So yeah, I just, I just love to collect real stuff because then people get really excited when they see, you know, a piece of paper they don't get too excited about, but when they see the real thing, they just get really excited and happy. Um, so, just if you care to talk about this, a couple of lows and highs in the progression of Stone, things that have happened that… Wagner: Let's see, I mean, you know, some of the highs were, let's see, in the early days, that'd be just some big wins on getting our beer to some places that, you know. I remember one of them, because one of the reasons I used to come down here was because my brothers were in school at UCSD and I was, I was already out of college and I was living in Los Angeles, but I'd come down and visit them and we'd go to the Del Mar racetrack and stuff. You know, it was just fun thing to do on the weekends and you know, so when we first got Stone Pale Ale on tap at the Del Mar racetrack, I thought, ‘Wow, it doesn't get any better than this.’ Yes, they're just little things. but just those little incremental things, sometimes... Downie: Well, they may feel a little but, that was really a big thing getting, getting out there with so many different people are going to be tasting your beer. That's huge. Wagner: So, yeah, that's what I remember I mean, you know, the first time that we'd started shipping our beer to another state, to Arizona. That's pretty big deal. Downie: Yeah. Especially Arizona was early. I mean, they passed Prohibition four or five years before the nation did. Yeah. That they were one of the reasons San Diego Brewing failed, or Mission Brewing, failed pre-prohibition because Mission was making Hopski which was a near beer and Arizona wouldn't even allow that in the state. And that's what actually caused Mission to shutter. Oh, I've got all kinds of weird little historical trivia. Wagner: Yeah. Let's see. The low points. I don't know. The, you know, the losing good people is always tough, you know? Um, what do you feel like you've let them down or something and not been able to provide the career path or the compensation they need or whatever it is. You know, sometimes that hits you hard when it's somebody who, really, really valuable member of the team that moves on from whatever is, it could be personal reasons, can be professional reasons. Um, those were some low points. You know, obviously Greg talks about when we got turned down by the distributor, you know? Yeah, yeah. That was a pretty big setback. Yeah. Downie: That, that would be terrifying. Wagner: Yeah. I dunno for me though, it was just, it just made me mad and it's like, alright, let me just, we're going to beat these guys at their own game. That we’re going to take action in those situations. But yeah, you know, it's, you don't really know how long you have to make a success of it, you know, and how long can the negative cashflow go on before decides just not gonna make it, you know, and we were close to that point. So it was definitely an inflection point. Downie: Do you have a year that you realize you had gone into the black? Wagner: I think it was about, I think it was probably ‘99 was probably our first profitable year. I can look back and I might still have some of those. Downie: Yeah, well that's not, that's not because Peter (Zien) at AleSmith says it was six, six years or so before he actually… Wagner: I think it was the first full year with Arrogant Bastard. ‘Cause I think that kind of took off pretty quickly for us. It really changed things around. You know, because we had just been trying to grow in San Diego and you know, do it the hard way. Right. Just hand to hand. So, it was a slow road, but that kind of gave a us a big shot in the arm. Downie: Well, a name like that, you know, I mean if nothing else, people are gonna buy it just because of the name. Yeah. Okay. Well then, I know we've talked about this before, but for the record, if Stone hadn't worked out, you know, I mean you did have a time where you came close, I'm sure. What would have been your plan B? Wagner: Yeah, I think the plan B, I mean I definitely wanted to stay involved in craft beer, you know, enjoyed brewing and a lot of aspects for it. So, you know, I thought about that since we talked a little bit last time. I think it probably would have been moving back up to Portland because both of my brothers and their families lived up there. Uh, looking for a job with a brewery up there. Really enjoyed living up there too. Downie: Yeah. Well I liked your, your response last time you said, ‘I didn't think about it.’ It wasn’t not going to happen. Wagner: I thought about it since you said like ‘What would we have done?’ Probably, you know… Downie: So, well it seems like you were so busy you didn't have time to think about what that plan B would be. Wagner: It’s really true, I think we're so focused on just a… Downie: Yeah, if you don't admit that there could be failure, you know, you haven't left yourself anywhere, but to go, but keep going, I guess. Wagner: I feel like we just put our heads down and just kept working with it. Downie: You obviously, you obviously did, I mean some of the photos from the buildout on Mata Way. I mean, obviously you're just, you're asleep in your chair. You just kept going until you couldn't go anymore. But you know that that hard work has paid off here 22 years later, 23 years later. So do you have any words of wisdom for future brewers? Wagner: Wow. Yeah, you know I used to say all those things like ‘chase your dreams’ and ‘if it's your passion’ stuff but the way the industry is now, I'm not sure. (Laughs) I'm not sure the best advice to give somebody, but, yeah, I mean, if you're, I would say if it's, if you're willing to commit everything to it and work harder than you've ever worked and you know, and you should only do that because you really love it. Then, yeah. I mean it's, it's great to do something that you love. You know, I think, I think you, you know, you have to have realistic financial expectations these days. You know, people aren’t going to grow into a $1 billion company probably at this point, you know, but, uh, but if you are passionate about it and you can find a lifestyle that works for you with the, you know, with that sort of employment or a job, I think it's, there's something to be said for it. Downie: Yeah. And Stone has certainly given rise to a lot of other brewers who have gained experience here and then gone out and been successful. Wagner: So it's not just us, it's the other brewers that had been around for a while too. Downie: Yeah. I tried to develop a genealogy, kind of you know, who had worked where with who and I gave up. It was such an inner tangled, shifting, people popping back and forth. I said, no, somebody else can do that. I'll just track the breweries because they're a fixed space and I can deal with it. Wagner: That, um, that would be a very complicated… Downie: What was the, I'm sure you and Greg have probably talked about where does Stone go from here, you know, as far as both expansion and what, when you both say ‘we want to step back, we want to retire’. Or whatever. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's something we're, we're, you know, we're actively trying to figure out every day pretty much. It's how can we leave the company independent and you know, still a going enterprise, you know, when we're not involved anymore, can't be involved anymore. So that's still our goal. You know, we want to leave a company that has the ability to go its own way and not be told what to do. Uh, you know, be run by the people who work here. Downie: And hopefully hold to your founding principles of, you know, the quality, consistency... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: No paid advertising, you know, just good, good culture for people to work at and, and, and all of those. I mean, it seems like you've developed a very good, strong core of principles that have really served Stone well. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Hopefully they will remain. Wagner: Yeah. You know, we're, we're trying to figure that out. It doesn't seem like it'll be a family business at this point. You know, my sons are still a little young, not even sure if that something they'd be interested in. You know, Greg doesn't have any kids or anything, so it's not, it's not going to be like a family business that's passed on generation to generation probably. So, yeah. Downie: Well, have your children ever come in and like work for the summer helping out? Wagner: My youngest son was a host at the restaurant this summer. Downie: Okay. I'm never sure, I'm never sure if that's really a good insight into the world of, you know, the food and beverage business. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. People are not always that pleasant. It was good for him because he needed to come out socially a little bit. So, you know, you're having to deal with strangers and be nice to them and make them happy. That's a good thing. Downie: Yeah, that's, it certainly it makes you appreciate what service staff go through. Wagner: Yup. Downie: If you work a little bit of it yourself, it's a very different world for them on the other side. And are there any styles of beer you have not tried? You know , I mean, it seems like there was a real explosion of beer styles for a while. Now, you know, the Brut IPA is the most recent thing I've heard of, but are there other styles that you have heard of that you haven't tried or other styles that you see Stone maybe experimenting with or at least investigating? Wagner: Uh, let's see. I'm sure there's styles that I haven't tried, but they're, they're probably more the historical, obscure type ones that, you know, maybe nobody’s brewing anymore or has tried to brew in a long time. Downie: They're not being made for a reason. Wagner: That’s right, most of them, most of them are not accepted styles. That'd be both, you know, between being a judge at GABF probably judged all the categories, the hundred or whatever there are, including the malt liquor category. Sometimes you have to pay your price. I mean, as far as places we’re looking or, I mean, you know, one of the nice things is having a brewery in Berlin now that sort of opened up a whole new range of things we can do there, you know, as it relates to more traditional styles, more traditional European styles and things. So, it's kinda fun to experiment with those, you know, doing the Berlinerweisse and doing some different Pilsners and lagers and things like that. So, yeah, I dunno, there's nothing we'd rule out, you know, I mean, there's such a lot of, uh, innovation going on with hop varieties and stuff that's really exciting to us. So, obviously we're doing a lot of different IPAs using those, you know, testing new hop varieties for the growers and things. Uh, let's see. Yeah, I don't know. Downie: Well, there's, there's still lots, still lots out there available to experiment. Wagner: You know, the ability to create new flavors and beers is pretty much limitless, I think. So we still want to be leading that charge for sure. Downie: But never giving up on your stable, the stable core beers. Wagner: Yeah. You still have to sell beer too. Downie: But somebody was bemoaning the oaken, the Oaked Arrogant Bastard and how much he missed that. And that was I just like ‘Never had it, can’t say.’ Wagner: The beautiful thing is we, you know, we reserve the right to bring back any beer at any time if we want to. Pretty much any of them we could brew again and we probably will at some point just for fun. Downie: Yeah. As long as those particular hops and all are still available. Wagner: Yeah. The Stone Pale Ale, although somebody told me, I was talking to Jeremy or somebody who told me something. They said that some of the growers are starting to plant the Ahtanum hop again. I guess, which is interesting. So I have to keep posted on that, we might have to do a throw back version of the Stone Pale Ale. Downie: What was old is new again. Wagner: Yeah, exactly. Downie: Well, is there anything that you would like to contribute to this history that we haven't touched on? Wagner: I'll have to think of that a little bit if I could get a second swing at it. But, no, I just think it's an amazing story of how San Diego ended up being this epicenter of it, you know, Capital of Craft™ and just, uh, you know, my best memories are just the wonderful people in this industry. You know, I consider many of them friends, just really good people who you know really pull together and help each other out. And I just thought that's something that we can keep going, you know, as it gets more competitive and things like that. ‘Cause it's, it's a pretty special place to be. Downie: Yes, exactly. Yeah I told Jen (Jennifer Fabbi, Dean of the CSUSM Library) , I said, if, if this was a combative industry, I would have come back to you and said, no, we do not want to get involved. Yeah. But I said, everybody has been collaborative and sharing and open and enthusiastic, which has really made developing the Brewchive® a joy because, I think there's, I don't know if the stars aligned right for San Diego or what, but it does seems like it's a really, there's something about this area and the people in it that has just created a very good place for the craft beer industry to be successful and be collaborative. Wagner: Yeah. And I think if there's one, one thing in particular that Stone did to make that happen was to take our beers outside of San Diego, you know, and probably the first ones to get any sort of serious distribution outside of Southern California to attract attention for, you know, Arrogant Bastard and then Stone IPA and some of those beers that, you know, I mean obviously there's a lot of tourism and military stuff for the word would spread about San Diego breweries, but we actually got the beer out there to the East Coast and other places where people, helped people realize, wow, there's something going on in San Diego. Downie: Yeah. And somebody sampling it here, they may not have any pull where when they go home to get the beer brought in. So yeah, you have to kind of push it to a receptive community. Wagner: You have to convince the distributor that you know that it will succeed or that there's people that would, Downie: And so now there Stone brewing, Stone has a distributorship. Um, I know Greg's got like the nut butter thing going on. (Wagner laughs) It seems like there's becoming a many-headed Hydra, not in a negative way. Wagner: That’s not a Stone thing (nut butter) though , that's, you know, he's got a couple other things he's involved in, you know, whether it's the, yeah, the nut butter or the wine thing, there are some other breweries and things. And I've got a little bit of that too with some of the brewers that I help out. But, yeah, I don't know. I think, you know, our three big pillars are obviously the brewery is the big one and continue to make beer that people want to buy and the challenges and the distribution. It's just a key strategic thing for us that allows us to control our brand and our sales in our home market. That's something that we'll always have that, you know, no matter how rough it gets out there and other parts of the country and stuff, we feel confident that we can, you know, always have strong sales here in Southern California. And then, uh, the hospitality is basically our marketing. You know, we don't invest a lot in advertising or those sort of traditional things for us. It's creating a good experience where people come to your place and you know, they leave and the next day they go to the store, they want to buy a six pack of Stone because they have these fond memories, you know. So far it’s worked. Will it continue to work? We’ll have to see. Downie: Well, sounds like it will. Well, I will end the interview here. I want to thank you so very much, Steve. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24.mp3 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif.) Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. 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Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Riccardo Savo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Brian Bilbray OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Tijuana;San Diego;Borderlands;Politics;Congressman OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. SC027-056 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm Environmentalism and politics Politics and government--21st century Borderlands Mexican-American Border Region Water rights--United States Water rights--Mexico Metropolitan government Politics and government--20th century Environmentalism and politics--California--San Diego Environmentalism and politics--Mexico--Tijuana United States. Congress. House Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Tijuana ; San Diego ; Borderlands ; Politics ; Congressman Brian Bilbray Riccardo Savo 1.0:|19(17)|34(6)|46(17)|62(10)|76(5)|95(5)|111(17)|123(15)|139(3)|155(10)|171(12)|182(13)|195(5)|210(5)|223(3)|235(9)|246(5)|260(12)|273(4)|287(4)|300(13)|312(10)|325(15)|339(16)|353(6)|364(12)|376(5)|387(12)|399(5)|413(3)|425(13)|436(13)|448(12)|458(6)|473(12)|485(10)|504(6)|518(14)|529(16)|541(15)|554(4)|567(7)|579(14)|589(14)|603(5)|614(15)|628(9)|644(13)|655(16)|667(6)|680(3)|690(15)|701(13)|712(9)|724(9)|738(3)|752(3)|762(14)|777(8)|789(5)|803(3)|814(9)|827(6)|841(7)|855(13)|866(13)|881(8)|895(11)|905(16)|919(9)|932(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b761005e2c7ce7501e9da0e69bfc90a2.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Congressman Brian Bilbray and Riccardo Savo introduce themselves and discuss what it was like for Congressman Bilbray to grow up in San Diego's South County, next to the border with Mexico. Birthplace ; Childhood ; Mexico ; San Diego ; Coronado ; Imperial Beach 0 240 Beginning in Politics Congressman Bilbray discusses how he began his political career. Along the way, Congressman Bilbray explains that he had to navigate the political landscape in a way that was analogous to surfing. Politics ; Dana Rohrabacher 0 363 Accension from Mayor of Imperial Beach to House of Representatives Congressman Bilbray discusses the driving factors that led him to successfully run as a Republican congressman including his college degrees and experience. Congressman Bilbray also discusses his previous experience as a lifeguard prior to politics. Law Enforcement ; Lifeguard 0 639 First Term as a Congressional Representative - Environmental Policies Congressman Bilbray discusses how his early political experiences as a city and county politician provided him with the expertise to form environmental policy in Congress. Congressman Bilbray sponsored numerous environmental bills that had a significant impact on San Diego and South Bay. Smog ; Smog Reduction Act ; Environment ; Tijuana ; Borderland 0 1030 Navigating Environmental Groups and the Border Areas Congressman Bilbray talks about how he helped to create the Otay Mountain Wilderness area and how he worked with groups like Green Peace throughout his career. Congressman Bilbray also talks about how the international border can be an obstacle when trying to work with multiple groups and agencies. Otay Mountain Wilderness Area ; Otay ; Frotnera ; Border ; Borderlands 0 1840 Challenging Authority - Second Term in Congress Congressman Bilbray talks about how there is a responsibility to speak up when you see something that isn't right. He also says that just because someone in authority says you can't do something does not make it correct. This mentality directly led Congressman Bilbray to run for a second, non-consecutive, term in Congress. San Diego ; Federal Government ; Healthcare ; Science ; Air Resources Board 0 2184 Tijuana Sewage Management Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with multiple agencies and passed multiple bills to address the sewage crisis. Bob Simmons ; Environment ; Sewage ; Tijuana 0 2926 Working with Bob Filner Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with Bob Filner. Bob Filner ; Sexual Harassment 0 3032 Reaching Across the Aisle Congressman Bilbray talks about how bipartisan legislation is essential to getting things done in politics. bipartisan legislation ; Democrats ; Republicans 0 3371 Local Government and Ideal Changes in Imperial Beach Congressman Bilbray talks about what he would like to see happen in Imperial Beach to improve the lives of people living there. He also talks about the importance of proper consultation by subject matter experts and following facts when proposing legislation. Imperial Beach ; Politics ; Environment 0 3778 Being in the Right Place to Change Things Congressman Bilbray talks about the California REAL I.D. and how some of his legislation did not pass. Congressman Bilbray also talks about going against his own party to convince them to pass legislation. REAL I.D. ; Immigration ; 9/11 0 4210 Outro and End of Interview 0 Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Riccardo Savo: So, formality. Today is April 3rd, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at Cal State San Marcos. I'm interviewing Congressman Brian Bilbray for the University Library Special Collections Oral [History Internship] Project. Mr. Bilbray, thank you very much for being here with me today. Brian Bilbray: Honored to be with you. Savo: No, it's definitely an honor and privilege here. I would just like to begin very broadly, if you could just, you know, tell me a little bit of background, a little bit about your background here in San Diego County. I understand that you're a Coronado native, and, you know, a lot of the issues that you ran as a politician concerned about the environment. How was your experience in Coronado? How did that affect your transition or your, your risk taking in politics Bilbray: For the record, I'm an Imperial Beach. Savo: Imperial Beach. Bilbray: I was born in Coronado, actually at North Island, which wasn't technically part of Coronado at that time. But when I was chairman of San Diego County, I had that part of North Island annexed to Coronado, so I could claim I was born in Coronado. But no, I was actually born and raised in Imperial Beach, a block from the Pacific Ocean. Two houses separated my childhood home, uh, and the Mexican border. I had to go about 50 yards, maybe 40, 35 yards to go to the Tijuana estuary. And that's where I played, beaches, literally, I had the luckiest thing in the world. I literally grew up on the edge. On the edge with Mexico, and the edge, with the Pacific Ocean. So when I talked to my, my cousins in Australia, I could always explain where I live, because anywhere in the world, you just say, “You know where the Pacific Ocean is?" and “You know where the border is between Mexico and the U.S.?” Well, right where they meet is where I live and I'm growing up. Savo: That's awesome. Bilbray: . My mother was an Australian tennis player and accountant, and my parents, um, there was a temporary use of a hotel for General MacArthur, and my parents met there, and my father was a naval officer who actually was from southern Alabama. A place called Monroeville, where To Kill a Mockingbird was written. And he went to an orphanage in Mobile and got into the Navy, and they actually met, and in 1944, my mother came to the United States as the first group of war brides. In fact, she was very proud that she was the first Australian war bride to get her citizenship. So interesting mixture. But that Australian background with a, with an American, a kind of working-class background, kind of made me who I am. Savo: You mentioned once in an interview that you compared surfing to politics. You know, if you wanna ride a wave, you have to take a risk. Could you speak to how those hobbies and, and that childhood background, how did that translate when you were running for [San Diego] city council? What, what… how would I say it? What, motivated you to, to join city council? Bilbray: Well, first of all. Savo: Especially at a young age, Bilbray: You know, surfing starting, I started surfing at third grade, and I'm, interesting story that, when I ran for the city council at 25, 24 [years old], there was a man that lived on my block who I asked him, if “You'd consider voting for me?” And he says, “I'll vote for you no matter what. I've watched you your whole life.” And he says, “I remember you dragging a balsa wood board over your shoulder, dragging the board to the beach and back every day, and you look like Christ going to the Calvary.” And he said, “if you were determined enough as a third grader to do that, I think you ought to go to the city council.” But, the surfing analogy in life is just so clear, it’s that you get out of it what you put into it, but you've got to invest the hard work. And you've got to basically, put yourself in a position where opportunity may come along. And so you're not guaranteed to catch any wave, but you're guaranteed you're never gonna catch a wave if you're not willing to get in the cold water, struggle against the waves, and then sit and wait for the wave at the right time, and then the execution. So, a lot of this opportunity, a lot of it’s perseverance. And one of the things about surfing that a lot of people don't understand is, unlike skiing and a lot of other things, you can't see what you're going to do. You have to imagine the wave breaking to get in the right spot. And so, a lot of this is having the imagination to perceive what is going to happen and be in the right place at the right time with the right talents and the right tools to be able to take advantage of it. And to be able to, you know, accomplish anything with it. And so that, in a little way, I think that applies to all life, but in politics, it just happens to be a little higher profile. Savo: Okay. Bilbray: Oh, by the way. -- Savo: Yes. Bilbray: One of the lines I always said to Dana Rorabacher, which was a guy from Huntington Beach. He would not endorse me for Congress until I went up to Huntington Beach and surfed with him. And he just said, then he said,” Why are you so much a better surfer than I am?” And I said, “Dana, I've been doing it a lot longer than you have, but you surf like your politics, you only go to the right. There's a whole left to a wave. So, if you're willing to just catch the good wave, sometimes you go to the left and sometimes you go to the right.” And I think he took the analogy appropriately [laughs] Savo: That’s great. So, I'm curious to learn about how you went from becoming mayor and then ascending to the House of Representatives. You know, you first represented the 50th district and the 52nd, I believe. Bilbray: 49th and then the 50th. Savo: 50th. My apologies. Could you talk about that ascent for me briefly, if you could? Bilbray: I actually got involved with politics, because I was a lifeguard. And the whole ocean was always very much a big part of my life. But being down there, the clash between law enforcement and the kids on the street, and you had drug dealing in Imperial Beach. But then the law enforcement almost approached it as if everybody who was longhaired and young was involved in this. And I actually got involved with getting groups together to work with the police and get the police to meet the kids and the kids. So that, you know, knowledge is the most important thing law enforcement has. And as a lifeguard, that gave me a good position of someplace where I could, um, that I was neither fish nor fowl. I was sort of in between the law enforcement and the kids on the beach. Bilbray: They were used to lifeguards being around. We weren't a threat. That ended up getting me involved with it. And, when I was 24 years old, actually was 23! I was appointed as a human relations commissioner by the city. And then at 24, I was asked after a rescue where I, had a girl around my neck and I had to do a in-water resuscitation on a young lady. In fact, I always remember how blue she was. I didn't, I really didn't believe we, I had a chance to save her. She was face down and I ended up resuscitating and going-- didn't get any response to her, in her vitals. But halfway to the hospital after the EMTs picked her up, she was… survived. What I didn't know at that time was, we do rescues, like a lot of rescues not in the water resuscitations like that, but we do a lot of it. Bilbray: And you never think about, it's just another rescue. But what happened this time was there happened to be a local newspaper photographer taking pictures of the beach, and he had a whole series of this rescue. So, then the city gave me a big award for saving it. And then people started saying, “He ever thought about getting involved in politics?” And my family had been involved in the formation of the city and a couple recalls. So, as a young, younger person. I sat through meetings and when my father died, my father died when I was in 10th grade. I kind of got mom into the political scene as a way to keep her busy as a high school student. And that sort of led to people thinking comfortable that they could try to talk this young, you know, 24-year-old running for the city council. And I was elected to the city council just after my 25th birthday, a couple months after my 25th birthday. Savo: Wow. And I'm assuming that's like probably around March? Bilbray: April. Savo: April. Oh. So, then… Bilbray: The elections were, separated in those days. And I mean local elections were able to be placed any time they wanted to. Savo: Okay. So this had all happened after the fact that you had attended Southwestern and everything? Bilbray: Yeah. I actually, what happened was, I was a history major with a theater arts minor. Like I say quite freely, I wanted to be a history professor, but I couldn't pull the academics, so I got stuck in Congress instead. But the theater, really the history background with a theater minor really did help me in politics. I mean, in fact, there's a lot of camera crews for TV stations here in town that always, still, jack me up for telling them, “Well, now do you want to get this angle of the light?” [laughs] I would set up the shots because I was used to it. But I'm, I think that it helps to some degree to understand presentation. And not in debate. I think a lot of [the] problem [with] people in politics thinks debates, what's really important Message is a lot more than arguing. Savo: It's all about the understanding, the knowledge, the whole presentation as well. But, you know, it's, it's having that mindset or having that expertise. Bilbray: Yeah. Savo: So I'm curious to learn about your first term as a congressman in the House of Representatives. You authored, sponsored numerous pieces of legislation that not only pertained to the local environment, but also to our border. You introduced the Border Smog Reduction Act of 1998. Could you tell me a little bit about that? How were you able to garner support within the House to do so? And did you work with other local representatives to achieve that? Bilbray: Well, first really, my years in local government gave me a real background that most people in Washington don't have. I served on the California Coastal Commission. I was able to, I served on the Air Resources Board for the state of California, the notorious CARP working with some of the best scientists in the world. And legislators don't have this kind of exposure. I served on the Air District for San Diego County and so, a lot of the technical stuff that you pick up in local administration, you would never be able to have in almost any other field. And so I was, I had worked as a mayor because of the Tijuana sewage problem. I had, you know, 45 million gallons of raw sewage pouring into my city in 1980. And I was aware of that. Bilbray: But the Air Resources Board and the Air District, I sponsored the Smog Reduction Act because you had a situation to where the federal government was requiring that if somebody worked in a non-attainment area, an area where it's polluted like L.A., San Diego, that if you commuted into a non-attainment area, you had to have your car smogged in that non-attainment area. So that was a law. So somebody coming from humor or something would have to do it. Well, the same government that was requiring that the locals do this, were controlling the international border, and waving people in every day that didn't have their car smogged. And so we ended up in a situation in south San Diego, uh, the South Bay that you had Imperial Beach that might have had a real pollution problem when it came to water, but we had the cleanest air in San Diego County. Bilbray: And, because we didn't get hit with what they call the Catalina eddy, where L.A. smog would come out during the night and then blow down on North County and pollute the northern part. Our air, Imperial Beach was very clean, but two miles away, three miles away at San Ysidro we had the dirtiest spot in the county. And that was because of the traffic, the operation of the border, and the fact that we weren't getting the smogging going down. And I got exposed working on that problem. I got exposed to groups like Honeywell's Remote Sensing, where they were identifying that the stop and go traffic was a major pollution problem. And I mean, right to this day, you have no one pushing to have stop signs taken out. Bilbray: We’re talking about doing all these billion-dollar projects and all these great little environmental projects but, just going to traffic circles instead of traffic lights, going to yield signs instead of stop signs, huge reduction in air emissions, and nobody talks about it. It's totally blind. But because I worked on that border smog as a local government guy, I then was in the position that when I got to Washington, I knew the problem, I knew the technicalities and, and pushed that. And what's interesting about the Border Smog Reduction Act, we did not have one Mexican national complain about it. Not one! The people that complained were Americans who were registering their cars out of the country to avoid the deal. And it was U.S. citizens that said, “Well, I'm a U.S. citizen. I have the right to do this.” And all of this, you know, when you do these things, the learning curve is so steep, you learn so much by just making the effort to move it forward. Savo: Hmm That’s very interesting. I didn't know that it was mainly U.S. nationals complaining about this bill. I assume that there would've been some repercussions from the Mexican end. But, I'm interested, how that was perceived after the bill was passed. Were there any political fallout from that? Bilbray: No, you would think that, you think that people, you know, everybody's got a hypersensitivity. Um, like I, I was told by Greenpeace one time that they don't wanna look punitive to a nation of color. So you can't apply the normal standards to certain areas because people then have a hypersensitivity of looking to be outraged about it. I didn't sense very much attack at all. I think that everybody's gotta remember the greatest victims of that problem. The only people that were impacted more than San Ysidro, was Tijuana. And, a lot of that border pollution issue is the fact that the most vulnerable and the poorest are the most impacted. And that isn't discussed about very much. And so, uh, no. I'm sure that there might have been a lot more people upset, but really, it was very focused on the fact that the problem was something that just common sense. That if you want to have the opportunity to go to school in San Diego County, if you want the opportunity to work in San Diego County, with those opportunities, go environmental responsibilities. And that nexus that connection is essential for not only our environmental policy, but for our whole quality of life. Bilbray: You can't maintain any standard if you're going to find excuses to not, maintain a minimum standard. Savo: You mentioned groups like Greenpeace. Um, how, how were you able to reach across to these groups? Or how were you able to be in connection with these groups if they were not so willing to back your bill or not so willing to help the crisis? It seems like they were more counterproductive. It seems like they were more-- Bilbray: Well, they can be on situations like that. But when I did the. I created the Otai Mountain Wilderness Area. And in Washington, because you have certain mindsets in Washington. But, in Washington, when I proposed that we were going to have a wilderness area that had roads in it, you would've think that I was committing the greatest sacrilege in the world because that they couldn't understand, “Well then why have wilderness [area], if you have wilderness [that] is all about roads?” And, actually, it was the local Sierra Club that helped me carry the message to Washington and to the National Sierra Club that without the roads, the wilderness area would be totally destroyed. And they said, “Why?” I said, because the border will be totally out of control. And you have people that had no life experience of the Frontera and what goes on in the frontier. Bilbray: I mean, you're looking at somebody that, when I was 10 years old, walked from Imperial Beach all the way down and, you know, crossed into Mexico and came back. My mother actually caught me as I was crossing. And before she passed away, I said, how did you know to come catch me down there? She goes, “Well, I went to the park and across the street they said, ‘Oh, Brian went with this 10-year-old and, this 12-year-old, and he's going to Mexico.’” And so, she drove down and caught me. But, that kind of, you know, growing up with that environment, you sort of go back and forth about how you approach this. When it comes to, there's just. It's just astonishing how with the entire Frontera area, people are intimidated by it. Bilbray: [They] are absolutely intimidated. And it's so alien to them. I mean, to this day, you have people come visit you at your house, and you can walk out of my front doorstep and see the bull ring at La Playa [in Tijuana]. And Tijuana looks down on Imperial Beach. We take that for granted, and people just don't comprehend that. And I think that a lot of this kind of stuff is, people are intimidated. Even environmentalist groups and NGOs are very intimidated by it. And I remember there was a lady who served with me on the County [of San Diego] Board of Supervisors, Susan Golding, who, was doing something about the border. And she got totally attacked because she said something that somebody was always sensitive about. And she walked in my office very upset and said, “What's going on?” Bilbray: And I said, it's a landmine. As soon as you get around that border region, people are looking at one side or the other, and it's totally different. And don't get upset about it. And they're very uncomfortable about the border. But see, when you grow up in Imperial Beach, when you grow up in San Ysidro, Chula Vista, you know, at least 20% of the kids that we went to school with lived in Tijuana. I mean, which came in handy when you were in high school because you go down there, and you knew somebody's uncle owned one of the bars. You know, it was just one of those things that we were culturally, crossing. But that is, we take it for granted. And that's a big mistake for us taking it for granted. The ability for people to comprehend the trans-frontera culture is so tough for 'em. I mean, that line gets in there. When you try to explain to 'em, and any of us that grew [up] on the South Bay know, you can know where Mexico starts and where the U.S. starts by the color of the lights. And we just sort of think about that. Well, it's something that just doesn't happen through osmosis. It just happens to be our neighborhood. Savo: You mentioned that's a lot to take in. You mentioned this transnational community, this area that IB [Imperial Beach]is located in. Would you say that this community that's being formed here, did it have any effect on the development in IB [Imperial Beach]? Because I know, there's a lot of different propositions that you wanted, recreational that you wanted to… Bilbray: You had, you had. Let me tell you the transformation and anybody that grew up in the South Bay understands it. Where else in America, when do you have to drive through two other cities to get to the other part of a city? Savo: That’s true. Bilbray: Physically cannot go on. A lot of people, we take it for granted, but the extraordinary situation that happened with the major wealth in the city of San Diego, using their political power and influence to annex a huge area in our neighborhoods, and it was for their land development schemes. You had major investors from San Diego City buy in an area called Otai Mesa along the border. And they bought all the land around a place called Brownfield, and they were going to make the international airport there, and they were gonna make a fortune. That major investment, they annexed, and cut a deal, so that they could annex down a waterway, 300 feet wide, down the middle of San Diego Bay, uh, negotiated with cities not to claim their old title. Bilbray: So, they could sneak down here and then annex an appendage down along the border so they could control the border crossing at San Ysidro, and they could take the airport and move the airport down there and make a fortune. They used that to stop any development in the estuary or in the valley because they wanted that all free and clear for landing jets over the top of it. ’Cause they didn't wanna see the problems we had at, at Lindbergh Field. All of that was part of something that those of us in the South Bay didn't even know what was going on. And the annexation of San Diego into the South Bay was a major intrusion. I mean, the south, the South Bay part of San Diego is nothing, less than a colony. And I watched that, I watched it in many little ways, but the manifestation that I try to explain to people so they can have a visual is that when you drive from Imperial Beach and leave Imperial Beach and go into San Diego, between the freeway and Imperial Beach. You'll notice that there's not one billboard in Imperial Beach. Bilbray: But as soon as you hit San Diego, it’s billboard after billboard after billboard. And I know because I was county supervisor for Point Loma and for Imperial Beach, a lot of, most of those billboards were shipped down from the wealthy areas of Point Loma because you had a local council member who want to get it off of Rosecrans [Street in Point Loma]. So, the deal was you take it off of Rosecrans and we'll let you put it down in Imperial Beach in the South San Diego area. And literally using this as a dumping ground. You see hotels being converted to halfway houses in the coastal zone. There's no place else in America where that allows. You've got nowhere else in America under the EIS, the Environmental Impact Statement, could you cite a Home Depot or a Walmart, legally, anywhere with only one access point. You always have to have at least two, if not three. Well, down in the south San Diego, you not only have a Walmart, you have a Walmart and a Home Depot with only one access point. And that intersection is what they call a Schedule E. It is dysfunctional most of the time because they've created that. Somebody made a lot of money on it, and the environmental standards were abandoned because these are just poor people of color. And so, yeah. Don't get me started on this, but the whole concept has been a real problem. Savo: You you're very passionate about the subject and I'm very curious to know how...were, as a congressman, how were you able to explain to your, or illustrate to your constituents that you were that passionate about this, about what was happening in an IB. Obviously today, in today's day and age, we live in an area of transparency, right? Were we're trying to voice our message and our concerns. What, what was your outreach to the community and to the district? Bilbray: I had an advantage that because I had served as mayor and county supervisor, I had shown my passion for it before I was ever a congressman. In fact, I got a reputation of being a little crazy. And that, uh, but the situation was crazy. It started very early in my first term as mayor, where the county health department, which let me just say on the side. The County of San Diego has probably the best health department in the entire country. The standard, of quality, the science is second to none and it really helped me when I went to Washington. One of my greatest, I had resources, I had people I could call, I had people who were so far ahead of the curve on air and in health issues that were great. Bilbray: I had actually started over the issue that the federal government came in and condemned half of our city for a habitat preservation. It had actually been a big section had been condemned by the United States Navy called it the Tijuana Sluice Preserve. And that was the preserve, the right of the Navy to fly their helicopters over our city. And the wind. When I was mayor, we had major vector problem, mosquitoes. And we had salt water, late every year about September, the high tides, big king tides, and we get into it will cause [a] major bloom of mosquito larva. And I actually had mothers bringing their children into a city council meeting and taking their kids' shirt off and saying, “150 mosquito bites! We need to do something about this.” And they were right. When I meet with Fish and Wildlife, Fish and Game, I literally was told straight to my face that “Mayor, that's a sign of a healthy environment.” Bilbray: And that's when you start saying the system is too insulated from reality. And when the county proposed to go down and spray, and they show that they were using environmentally responsible, they were distillates that were very light, [a] thing called Golden Bear. You had Fish and Wildlife talking about diesel. Diesel hadn't been used for 60 years. And the scientists at the county showed, here's the environmentally responsible way to do it. We can kill the larvae. The thing disperses within two hours doesn't impact the, the vertebrates and whatever. And you had somebody in the position of power at Fish and Wildlife said no. In fact, they said, "If the county goes down there, we'll arrest everybody who's spraying.” And when they said that, I announced an a press release and did a press conference and said, good, because the mayor of Imperial Beach is gonna be the one spraying, and you can arrest the mayor for doing this. Bilbray: And then we can, we can stand up in front of court and let the system go. And I think a lot of that is the street sense I learned in a working-class neighborhood that, just because somebody in authority says something, doesn't mean that it's right. And that, you basically know that, you don't argue it in the streets. You take it to the court where it's not their turf. So one thing you'll learn is never fight somebody on their turf. Find a neutral ground. And the neutral ground would've been the courts. And I was coached on how to operate the equipment. I let the media know I was gonna do it. And sure enough, within a few days, the Fish and Game, Fish and Wildlife reversed their position and allowed it to happen. That shouldn't have to happen! And I'd like to think that that would, that is just because it happens everywhere. But frankly, I think there's a big double standard and the mentality of how people approach that. So, I learned to push the system right from there. And that led to issues with sewage and everything else, is that the system needs to be pushed. That's how you keep it honest. Savo: You talk about how you have to sort of break rules to achieve the ends. And, um… Bilbray: Well, let me clarify. Not, well, not needing to break the rules, but when somebody is making up rules that are not the law, then you not only have a right, you have a responsibility to call it down. And I guess that's the big deal. I'll tell you something. The Simon and Garfunkel song, [The] Sound of Silence is about the sin of being quiet. And I think we always stick to the edict that it's better to remain silent and somebody think that you're stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I think it's always safer in our society to remain quiet. Um, I think that is as Simon and Garfunkel will say is a cancer, and it doesn't do anybody a service, especially those that are overreaching or whatever that need to be called down. Bilbray: So no, I think the biggest issue that I've always said is that, like a lifeguard, you couldn't stop me from going in the water and rescuing, I call it the tennis ball and the Labrador syndrome. When somebody like a 9/11 [September 11th attack], somebody like myself, when you see somebody in trouble, there's some of us that just have to go. It's just instinctive. And I call it the Labrador and the tennis ball because when you throw a tennis ball off the end of a pier, that Labrador is over the water before he realizes what he's done. It's that instinctive. And, I think that there's just some of us that are hardwired that way. And this one definitely has gotten me in trouble in politics. But I think it's probably one of the biggest things that I would never change in the world. I'd rather get in trouble for speaking out than allow things to happen because I found it safer to remain silent. Savo: Well that's great perspective because I was actually about to ask you, you have a very unique political story in Congress. Were you reelected for a second term, a non-consecutive term. Was there an energy that reignited your motivation to run again? Was the stagnation of the environmental concerns in Imperial County or Imperial Beach the reason that you decided to run again? Bilbray: There was, across the board there were so many opportunities in the environmental, strategies that are abandoned and feel, so, see. I introduced a bill to eliminate the mandate on California to use ethanol. I had the Lung Association come in and literally challenged me that I didn't care about people dying of cancer. My father died of cancer. Lung cancer. But they were going on a certain agenda. And I knew from serving on the Air Resources board that we had found at the Air Resources Board that ethanol was not only not a good, environmental option, but it was a pollutant. And to this day, the federal government does not do total testing on auto emissions because they want to hide the evaporative emission problem with ethanol because there is a huge Archer, Daniels, Midland involvement and involvement in nonprofits that claim to care about it, that Archer, Daniels, Midland, it's good for their business. Bilbray: And I don't mind 'em doing that, but I mind them wrapping themselves in [an] environmental blanket and saying, “God wants you to give me your money.” I call them environmental Jimmy Swaggers. And that doesn't follow the science. And so many people that you'll hear, “Stick to the science, stick to the science,” will abandon the science, not address stationary sources like inappropriate traffic management if we want to reduce air pollution. But the ethanol issue was one that the Air Resources board came to me and asked me to carry. And I knew about it because I just finished serving with them. That kind of thing, I think is essential to do. And I think for the credibility of those of us working on environmental problems, we have to do that. You can't pick and choose, you know, well, I want this one because it's convenient to do and not go the other way. Bilbray: And, I mean, I drove a natural gas car back in the eighties, not many people were talking about that and the flex fuel that you get into it. But, the, the challenge is trying to keep the science up front. Environmental activism is not a theology, it's not a religion. You don't have dogma. It's the best science you have at the time. And when the science tells you that what you thought was factual is not you not only have a right to do that, you have a moral obligation. I mean, it's so hypocritical to claim you're out to save the world, but you kind of ignore the facts when they don't fit you right. And to this day, to this day, I'm looking at what's happening here in California. Traffic Management, a lot of this kind of stuff that we're working on, nobody wants to talk about because it just doesn't fit the doctrine right now because it's sort of what's fashionable. Tijuana sewage was not fashionable. I built a reputation on that because I had no other choice. And right now, we still have that problem. It's worse today than it's ever been. Savo: So--Bilbray: Don't let me get you off your line. Savo: No, no, no. I just wanna make sure that I Bilbray: follow it up. Savo: I love, I love everything that you're-- Bilbray: Double back on it and get anything I passed that if I didn't hit it. What was your real question? Let me try to get right onto it. Savo: No, I was actually gonna ask if you could elaborate on some of the bills that you had authored, co-sponsored to address the sewage crisis. 'Cause you had two propositions to address the crisis. One, which was the expansion of the South Bay the wastewater treatment plant. And the other was a, uh, I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing it here, Bagua project. Bilbray: Bagua. Well, first of all, one of the things is make sure that the laws follow the science. And one of the things I got involved with that I got attacked for being anti-environment is [to] eliminate the secondary mandate [Secondary treatment of water through the quality control process] at Point Loma. And this is where people, you know, just get so frustrated that they care so much that they turn their brain off. They're leading with their heart and obviously, secondary is better than primary. So why wouldn't we go to secondary? And the fact is, is that it was lucky that there was a physician, I mean a lawyer who, named Bob Simmons. And he actually was just absolutely sharp on the line. And a lot of us, the line was always said that he could see it clearly, even though he was blind, that the law was hurting the environment. Bilbray: And what happened was he had run into the environmental impact report for going to secondary at Point Loma, they went through all the assessments from the environmental point of view, and they said that, “Because we're in this…” the outfall had been taken so far out to sea, was under three [thermoclines], the current of the Japanese current was dissipating. And, and the ocean was assimilating, that there was no net degradation of the sewer outfall at what they call advanced primary, about 89% of all solids taken out to about 94%. And then they looked at, okay, we're going to build, do this, do this, do this. And when they looked to go to secondary, the environmental impact report and the EIS, the environmental impact statement said, the building, the plants and doing all of that, will cause more environmental damage than anything that advanced primary was doing. Bilbray: So the answer to a problem was worse than the problem. And you had people that say, “We don't care. Secondary is the standard, is the law.” And Mr. Simmons talked to me about it, and he was right. And I took it to Congress and said, when an environmental law hurts the environment, it's being implemented wrong. No one passes an environmental law with the intention to hurt the environment. And, so here you had the scientists gave us a report and everybody wanted to ignore it because it meant that we had to go back and rethink an agenda. And what happened was, is that the Activated Sludge Mandate was meant for in-water, freshwater inland rivers and lakes where dissolved oxygen is a big deal. But in the open ocean, dissolved oxygen is plentiful because with so much action in the ocean, that they were taking something that was meant for ponds, rivers, and, small estuaries, freshwater estuaries and trying to apply it to the open ocean. Bilbray: And it hurt the environment. So, [I] actually had Donna Fry attack me for, well, that was because she meant well, but she was, she was ignorant about the situation. In fact, I think the history shows eventually she ended up changing her position too. That along with the, you know, we were talking about some of the other issues on the Tijuana situation. The Bagua [project] was recognizing that the problem was that Mexico did not have the problem. And I'll just tell you this, I have the pleasure of meeting every year with members of the Congress in Mexico and astonishing with all the talk about how people, we are neighbors of Mexico, how few members of Congress actually would go to these meetings. And once a year we meet in the U.S. or meet in Mexico and we talk. There was a gentleman who represented Tijuana in the Congress. Bilbray: And after the meetings, whatever, over a couple beers, he made a comment to me and he says, “Brian, your problem is that it's not our problem.” [He] says, “Your problem is to figure out how to make it our problem.” I said, what do you mean? He says, “You realize that when we dump the sewage, we don't have to pay for the chemicals, we don't have to pay for the pumping, we don't have to pay for the maintenance. You know, it just goes away. And what you gotta do is figure out how to make it our problem.” Well, one way we make it their problem, and the only way that problem is ever gonna be addressed, is when Mexico and Tijuana needs that gallon of sewage to turn into their next gallon of drinking water. And Bagua was a way of being able to do that in a third world country. Bilbray: And that was to get Tijuana on a total recycling program. Where they absolutely had to depend on recycling to be able to provide the water they needed for their country. I mean, for their city. And the concept was that we weren't going to send money into a third world country like we're doing, and we are gonna do again, because what happens is the money gets diverted to other places. A good example is when we first built the Banderas treatment plant in Mexico. I knew the engineering on that, I was in the negotiations in 1985 in Mexico City. Mexico wanted to get a grant to bring a million and a half acre feet of Colorado water to Tijuana through Otay Mesa, Mesa de Otay. Bilbray: And so we were looking at that plan. What we recognized is that, we were gonna send water down there, and the source of the pollution that pollutes our estuaries and our beaches actually comes from the United States. Because without that water, there would not be sewage flowing into the United States. So then their line was, we can't support this unless you can guarantee that this water's not gonna come back polluted, in 1985. And, the entire concept was we tried that, we were looking at that. And when they built the Banderas plant, it just shows you the little corruption that gets involved in these things. And it's not, and you know, if you, if you see the details, you kind of start understanding better why you have these in third world countries. They were open ponds and they had a thing called an aqua lift. Bilbray: And the aqua lift was a tube that air would be pumped in. And it, the aqua lift pumps the water by the bubbles coming up, draws it in. And the Jetco program with the aqua lifts that were engineered for these ponds had converging turbines. So, one turbine would turn one way, the other one would turn the other way, and as the bubble went up, it had all these turbines going there and dissolved the oxygen into the water so much better. And that raised it really up [oxygen levels]. So that was, and when we did the plan, that was all in the engineering. When they went to purchase it, somebody went over to Mexico and said, “Look, we've got the aqua lift and it's only 20% of the costs of these Jetcos. These Jetcos get patents. We've figured out how to do it without it being so expensive.” Bilbray: What they had was a tube with baffles. Now, what happened was it only had 20% of the dissolved oxygens that the other one had. So, the entire plant’s were only a quarter, you know, of what they planned on. Because they had changed this one component. And some people say, “Well, you can't expect them to do that.” Getting back the recycling is where we've got to get it done. And by Agua you have a private company bonded in the United States in Mexico, and they do not get paid for building anything, for digging anything. They only got paid for per gallon they treated, they would then be paid for that. So, outcome-based environmental strategy, and that's one of the things that I'm absolutely an advocate for is we've gotta get back to the concept that the outcome is what matters. Bilbray: You can build all these plants, you can do all these regulations, you can do all these things in environmental strategies, but if the outcome doesn't reflect your goals, then you not only have a right but a responsibility to change this. The regulations are useless And if, it doesn't work out. One of my biggest frustrations working with the Republicans in Congress was they could not see, and John Boehner, I tried to tell 'em and trying to get people to understand there are environmental regulations and you guys only see it as being bad for business. I can show you where it's bad for the environment. It's some of the worst stuff is done in the name of the environment. And so many of my Republican colleagues couldn't just get around, you know, just didn't see that as being important. I thought it's essential! Bilbray: It's the one place you could get the left and the right working together if they're willing to, you know, turn their brains on and open their eyes. And the Bagua was, the whole strategy was get there. Bagua was attacked because somebody was gonna make money off of cleaning up the sewage. And what's sad, you have nonprofits, you have corporations making money off the problem, but not solving the problem. And I actually watched them dismember a package that was put together with a Democrat and myself, [Congressman and former San Diego Mayor] Bob Filner and myself. And believe me, Bob Filner was no joy to work with. In fact, even the Democrats were shocked that I could work with him. But it was because, you know, you play the hand that the voters deal you and Bob was the the congressman from the area. And we worked out this way that says, these guys don’t get one cent unless they treat it, and they only get what they treat. Bilbray: And that was attacked because it was private operation. And people said, “That's immoral to have private companies doing these kinds of works.” Well, ladies and gentlemen, every project in Mexico is done by private contractors. And that's the naivete of people in the United States. Not taking the time to culturally understand that the Frontera is a different world. And that's where we get back to this issue of, we take things for granted here and other people just cannot comprehend it. It’s a quite unique experience we have by growing up on the Frontera. So, it paid off on that. Bagua was killed, and by people that now are crying, “Why has the problem gone from 45 to 55 million gallons of raw sewage pouring in every day?” Savo: Wow. You mentioned working with Bob Filner and the absolute, I don't want paraphrase here, but the absolute nightmare must have been to work and to kind of piece together this bill. How, how, [I’m] trying to phrase the right question here. Bilbray: Oh, lemme say Bob, Bob wasn't bad for me because I was on my home turf. Bob Filner was a carpetbagger. Okay. He, and I don't mind people come in and go back and forth, but, he ran in the South Bay because the South Bay was vulnerable. You realize that Juan Vargas is the only other congressman that ever represented the South Bay that was from the South Bay? Except for myself. That's an indictment to the process. But Bob came in, I had worked with Bob when he was a council member, worked with him before I went to Congress and before he went to Congress. And so there was relationships there that, again, that local government gave me a big advantage. I mean, his wife actually worked for me when I was chairman of LAFCO [San Diego County Local Agency Formation Commission], when I was at the county. And she was the director. And so, you know, relationships do matter, you know, human to human. And Bob knew that I knew his district better than he did. And I think he gave me more respect than I've seen him give anybody else. Not that he couldn't go unglued sometimes. Savo: I mean, you talk about these networking skills that you've developed in the county and then you obviously exercised it in the Congress. Could you speak a little to how you reach across the aisle when it came to these issues? You mentioned that you always have to look not only to the right, but you also have to look to the left. How did you find that goldilocks zone? How did you…? Bilbray: You pick up the tool that you need to get the job done. I actually had people attack me. [Congressman] Randy Cunningham hated Filner, hated that I was working with him. I actually had, you know, Republicans say, and I had reporters say, “You got Bob Filner on 80% of your legislation, why'd you do that?” And I said, because if I've got Bob Filler on my legislation, I got every left-wing crazy voting for me except Maxine Waters, you know? And so, I understood it, but growing up in my family I'm always used to that. My cousin was the congressman from Las Vegas, Democrat, Harry Reid's best friend. Harry Reid carried my bills. And they, you know, the concept that party line should be a barrier is absolutely absurd. And for those of us that are willing to cross the aisle, it's a real advantage. Bilbray: I mean, I prided myself on a lot of issues. In fact, the day I was sworn back into Congress, I made a gesture for a big reason. I was one of twenty-seven people in the history of the country that had come back from a different district. I purposely, when I gave my acceptance, at being sworn in. I did not stay on the Republican side of the aisle. There's two podiums, Democrat and Republican. I crossed over onto the Democrat side and I did my acceptance from the Democrat side. And there's an issue that you call in theater, they call violating your aesthetic distance. You're violating the presidium. You are-- like theater in the round, you're going into the audience. And they don't have the security of being away and sort of safe. And I did, I violated that aesthetic distance by moving into the Democrat side Bilbray: so I could talk to them personally one-on-one, in their face. Not from over here in the Republican corner. And that is a technique, but I think that it should, you know, people should use it more often. If people are safe hiding in their corners, you got an obligation to go pry 'em out. And, you know, Bob was obviously a real challenge. And he had a lot of his, you know, I worked with people in Congress and there's a lot of demons in Congress. But you know, who was it? You know, Plato said that, “Those who should rule won’t.” And I'm saying, look, normal people don't get involved with politics. So you get stuck with those of us that will. I actually had a gentleman named Allen UK, [the] man who gave me the idea of carrying the bill to bring the, the Midway into the county. Bilbray: And he wanted to get involved with politics. And what happened was so interesting is he ended up running against me. We ran against each other to replace Cunningham in the 50th. But he came to me and asked me, and gave me a compliment. And he says, “You are somebody that'll tell me what, what is the secret of being successful in politics? You've done it since you were a kid, Brian.” And, he says, “What do I need to do to be successful?” And I said, “Well, Allen, are you into pain?” And he says,” Oh, I don't mind it.” I said, “No, no, Allen, are you into it? That this is like surfing a big wave in cold water. This is like playing football, you know, you've got to be into it. You've gotta, you've gotta, you've gotta love hitting people and getting hit. Bilbray: Normal people don't do this kind of thing.” And you've gotta, I picture it as this must be how women approach childbirth. This must be important. Nobody would do anything that hurts this much if it wasn't important. And that, you know, that's why normal people usually don't get into politics cuz it's counterintuitive of everything. We're not, but we should be reflecting. But I think that there's a whole lot of good people in the game. There's a whole lot of people that are in the game for the wrong reason. And the trouble is the people that are affected by people in Washington and local government. Don't, man, people grossly underestimate the influence of local government. Most important stuff is the council mayor. And, when bad people get in there, it's the weak and the vulnerable to get hurt the most. And they get it from places that you wouldn't even think about it. Savo: Going back to about the local government and, you know, we're talking about that the federal government's kind of the problem to the solution. It's very counterintuitive. It's not, it's not the actual problem solver, it's the problem itself. What would you, what would you like to see change in Imperial Beach in terms of the structure or in terms of the environmental concerns? What do you think would probably be the most, beneficial, not outcome, but the most beneficial factor to help? Bilbray: We look, I had the privilege of serving in many different levels of environmental administration. Air Resources Board is the most aggressive, most successful environmental agency in the history of the world. They are equated to being Nazis because of a lot of stuff. And you get involved with stuff that you never would dream. I mean, I spent, I knew I'd reached the epitome of my political career when we spent three days on underarm deodorants. Okay. But I also watched Air Resources Board do the political moonwalk and backpedal so fast when they were talking about outlawing two-cycle chainsaws and then all the lumberjacks showed up at a meeting. But that application of people from different backgrounds, but the biggest key there is so essential. But having a scientific group to advise them and having that kind of interplay between people that are experienced in the field and those who are making the policy decisions and the flexibility, [it] really works into a large degree. Bilbray: But that can become out of control too. That can become tyrannical. I think the, the biggest one is looking at the difference between the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act. The Clean Water Act is process based. You will treat this to this level, you will do this, this, this, and this. And then if you do this, it's okay If you pollute, you just do this. And we get into it. The Clean Air Act said if you've got dirty air, you figure out, you put together a plan to address this and bring it forward to us and show that you're gonna do it, and then we'll monitor you. But you'll do it, and we'll give you the flexibility to solve it and to solve, to take care of it. But, there's no limit of what you have to do. Bilbray: And if you don't do it, you lose all your interstate transportation funds, you have a hammer. That outcome-based environmental strategy is so much more advanced, and it's astonishing in so many places that we're still locked into process base. And the process base, I think a lot of it is, you can pick winners and losers there. You go to electric cars and you know who's gonna win in electric cars. And you had, you had Boone Pickens trying to get, um, you know, trucks lined up on natural gas and nobody gave a damn when Mr. Pickens was saying it. And, that you've, you've gotta say where are you gonna go with your reductions and where you're gonna go with your strategies. And that's where I just really think we fall down. Bilbray: It's so much easier for a regulator just to say, you treat to this, and then I can walk away with it. Tijuana sewage, the Clean Water Act, was an advantage. But people who claim to be environmentalists blew it up because they thought they were gonna go clean it up by getting the secondary. By not being a secondary, you then had this situation like we have with Point Loma, where you have a consent decree where they have to do this, this, this, this, this. Not in the law. Okay. If you're not going to go to secondary, you have to do all kinds of other things like recycling water up at La Jolla. All the recycling program was all part of this deal that the lawyer from the Sierra Club worked with me on. But if we went to secondary, like we did at um, in Mexico, the Mexican plant at the international treatment plant, then once you go to secondary, you're free and clear. Bilbray: You don't have no obligations. Okay. Now, now the pollution can flow. And that's what we've got right now, that we actually reduce the capability of treating the volume because instead of removing 89% to 92%, 94% solids at advanced primary, we now go up to 98%, 95%, we got this number, but it's only like 8%, you know, of solids more. So, if you could treat, a gallon here and you get 80% removal, but here you get 95% removal. But if you go to 95% removal, you can only treat a quarter of the water to do that. Well, this had the illusion in environmental groups, so this is better. No, it’s not. You are actually gonna have more pollution going into the ocean because you went to secondary because you’re not treating. [They say]” Well. What we don't collect, we're not liable for.” And say that's how the IBWC was able, their capacity dropped dramatically. And, it's just frustrating to see people that mean well, but don't look at the numbers and don't look at the total impact. And they don't. And really the problem is, so few of people that are involved in this stuff actually live down at the border. Bilbray: And that's, that's the frustration. People are insulated from the outcome. And today, we do not have a recycling program in Mexico today because people who claim they cared about the environment killed the Bagua project because they're worried about some capitalists make money on recycling water. Well, guess what, guys? You got Poseidon up in Carlsbad. You got people, private money all over this country right now doing it and you're gonna do it. That's part of, that's a tool in our toolbox to be able to clean up the environment, shouldn't, allow some kind of misguided theology to stand in the way of good science. Savo: As we're sort of wrapping up our interview here were there any bills that you wish would've passed? Not just related to the environment, but in general as your, as your, both your terms in Congress? Bilbray: Look, I got things done that… In many different ways. Bilbray: The, um, Bilbray: Dirty little secret is probably one of the most efficient things I got done was you open up, look at your driver's license. The real ID bill was my piece of legislation. I did it while I was in my forced sabbatical. And I did it because a group that had worked with me on border problems came to me and said, would you carry this? And I was allowed, because I was a former member, or I was a former voting member, that the chairman of the committee, Mr. Sensenbrenner, actually had to call me into a conference of his Republicans so I could chastise Republicans about the fact that it's not a right-wing conspiracy to have a minimum standard for the ID that you need to get on an airplane. And they say, “Yeah, but this is gonna be a national ID card.” And you had ultra-conservatives that were gonna kill it. And I went in and says, “No, this is the alternative to a national ID card.” You have state IDs, but they have federal standards. And those standards then eliminate the need to have a federal ID. You have. The states are presenting what is, which is enforceable as a federal ID. And getting that passed, is really a lesson for our everybody to look at. It is just now finally becoming mandated. How many years has it been since 9/11? Savo: About 22, 22. Bilbray: And they said, just let me back up and explain why 9/11 is mentioned. The terrorists on 9/11 did not have to show their Saudi passports because they went to Virginia and they got a Virginia license plate, even though, the license, even though they were illegally in the country, they got an ID that got them on that plane and killed over 2,000 people, Americans. And, then when Virginia stopped it after 9/11, they stopped giving it to anybody who [applied] and they required that you have to be legally here, you have to have the proper documentation, whatever, to get it. Maryland was giving it, given it to [people who] didn't do it. So that's when people start sitting around saying, this could happen again. And the people may think that, “Oh, well that's punitive not to give it to somebody who's undocumented.” Bilbray: Well, what, what do you use as a basis for your document if there's no documents, the person has any documents you’re wide open. So that one has been real easy. And it actually goes to something I learned my first year in politics, was 1976 and California implemented a digital code on our driver's licenses, and it was a barcode. And I remember going through hearings as a little 25-year-old city councilman about [how] with this barcode you can put it a put it in a reader and you could get all the information, you can get the picture. In fact, and to this day, I remember them selling that. That all we have to do is get these readers for every squad car, every cruiser. And a police officer doesn't have to sit down and do the paperwork. Bilbray: He can punch it in. The trouble is, uh, fifty years later, they still haven't put the readers in the squad cars. And one of the things was to say it was really important you pull somebody over that if they put this reader in and that the picture on their screen is not the picture on the card. You know, officers are now warned that there's a problem here. But a lot of that is, you know, just osmosis, you're around it enough, you pick it up. And I was able to pull out my California card to these right wingers who didn't want to do it and then pull out my credit card. And, I just said, um, guys, do you have a credit card? “Yeah, we had credit card.” Do you have a …, I said, the government already knows all about it. Bilbray: If you've got a cell phone, they know where you are because we required the, 911 code to be able to track it down because somebody crashed in Colorado, went into a snowplow, and the kids were calling for911 and they couldn't find them. And the story at the hearing was they, Colorado had every, all the state troopers run with sirens on. And then when the kids heard the siren, they said, okay, they stopped the cars and they turned off the sirens until the kids said, stop. And so they knew which cruiser was in the area where these kids were. And I tell the story because that led up to the fact that now every phone is tracked. And so, these conservative guys, I said, they already know where you are. They know what you're buying so to worry about Bilbray: This driver's license thing is absolutely absurd. So that's how we got that through. But there was, you know, look, there's things that you get to do that you don't even talk about. I mean, one of the best things I ever did never even was public. And that is we had a local business that offered to give their supercomputer to the federal government. They had worked with the UC [University of California] system and they offered to give it, as long as I kept it secret, as long as we didn't say who they were. And it was a local business here that gave their supercomputer, as a mainframe for the genome program. And that mainframe and that genome program, ten years later, when my daughter was fighting stage three C cancer at 20% chance of living with melanoma. A 20% chance of living two more years, that's all. Bilbray: And that mainframe and that system that was set up ten years before, found the b wrap mutation on my daughter's cancer. And that's what saved her life. And I have two grandchildren because these businessmen quietly contributed to this. And I just happened to be on the committee, the Health and Environment Committee of the Energy and Commerce Committee. I was on the committee that was working on the genome program. And that deal has not only saved my daughter's life and created the two grandchild children's lives, but have done a whole lot more. I mean, how many millions of people have been saved on that? And nobody even knows that we did that. And that's what's important to being at the right place where you can help, being the lifeguard, being able to run out and, you know, be part of that. And you, you can't, you couldn't give me a million dollars to change that. The little things you do in the back and aren't talked about is what really matters. Savo: Well, Mr. Bilbray, this was an excellent interview. I appreciate you for your time. It was a real pleasure. I thank you a lot. Bilbray: Well, thank you very much. And, if you have any other wines, let me know. I'm unemployed now, so, as long as I'm not sailing my boat to Mexico or riding my Harley over to meet my, see my cousins in Las Vegas, I'll be around. In fact, we are, [on] the 27th of this month. I'm gonna represent my cousin who just passed away this year. They have the 20th anniversary of his elementary school they named after him. See, they'll do that for Democrats, but Republican will never get it [laughs]. But that's okay. Well, my luck, they'll name a sewage plan after me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-056 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Mexican-American Border Region Imperial Beach (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Brian Bilbray License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Community history History Department internship Politics and governance https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/16c819ecee03d3978d8818963f0d9827.pdf d5078d0e63780b613c3a2061cc24e594 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bilbray, Brian. Interview transcript April 3rd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. This oral history interview was made possible by the Ellie Johns Foundation stewarded by the Rancho Santa Fe Library Guild. It was created as part of CSUSM's University Library/History Department internship in oral history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Imperial Beach (Calif.) Mexican-American Border Region Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Brian Bilbray License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_Transcript Community history History Department internship Politics and governance https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/112b21d9155ea35c00877f0832c5a9a6.pdf be319453aba0694528cf6ede19e42c5e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyland, Mark. Interview transcript, April 10, 2024 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree & Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. This oral history interview was made possible by the Ellie Johns Foundation stewarded by the Rancho Santa Fe Library Guild. It was created as part of CSUSM's University Library/History Department internship in oral history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mark Wyland Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-04-10 Subject The topic of the resource Bills, Legislative California. Legislature. Assembly California. Legislature. Senate International relations Legislation -- California Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido Oral history Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century School boards -- California -- Escondido Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) California Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Mark Wyland License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10_transcript Community history History Department internship Politics and governance https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4b980f381eb5f170b4d732a73f004a7d.pdf 2af1a32989492e0fe580e85a42ceffac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview transcript, October 24. 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif). Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p class="p2"><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a></p> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_transcript Brewchive(r) Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/07a30db156660d21bcc54bcf2578a48f.png e13aceb4ac3aad4e6fd69fef3dbf5efe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource SpackmanA_250px Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tanis Brown Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lucy Wheeler OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. photojournalism;education;college;administration;agriculture;gender OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Wheeler, Lucy. Interview, April 28, 2023. SC027-045 00:39:22 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Family farms--California ; Photography ; Adult students ; Education, Higher ; Oral history photojournalism ; education ; college ; administration ; agriculture ; gender Lucy Wheeler Tanis Brown mp4 WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2d8c14513d98ce9e8b8309f763c8fe46.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Interview of Lucy Wheeler by Tanis Brown and Charlie Colladay, April 28, 2023. Interview conducted at San Marcos Historical Society. 0 97 Post-retirement, education, and the gift of gab Wheeler discusses moving to San Marcos after retirement at the age of 80 and discovering photography through classes at Palomar College. Wheeler also touches on what she did before retirement, and how she discovered her “gift of gab,” especially for interviewing others, through going to back to school at Nazarene College. Palomar College ; Nazarene College ; photography 0 417 Photography Wheeler discusses in more detail her coursework in photography and her return to college which she illuminates through an encounter at a skate park. Wheeler also discusses the art of interviewing in further detail, and recounts a lesson she learned along those lines from a photography class. photography ; interviewing ; skate parks ; Sam Hodgins 0 822 Connecting the dots Wheeler discusses her concept behind her business card which states, “Connecting the dots,” and idea that originated from a man who worked with dementia patients and helped them connect the dots to their pasts. dementia ; memory 0 978 Technology, the pandemic, and Wheeler’s past Wheeler discusses her work for a medical laboratory in 1965, and how she learned to view and love technology as a tool. Wheeler ties those lessons to what carried her through the pandemic. Sperry Rand ; Control Data ; Covid-19 pandemic 0 1218 San Diego County’s para-farms and family farms Wheeler recounts being raised on a farm and San Diego County’s farming conditions. Wheeler outlines where her interest in documenting local farms arose during the pandemic, and discusses some of the para-farms’ farmers that she’s interviewed. para-farms ; family farms ; Yasukochi Farm ; Neil Nagata ; Rodriguez Farm ; Joe Rodriguez ; Susan Cupaiuolo ; Primavera Orchard ; cherimoya farming ; Covid-19 pandemic ; San Diego Food System Alliance 0 1801 Oral history Wheeler discusses the insights she’s learned about oral history and conducting a successful interview. oral history ; research 0 1947 Next projects Wheeler elaborates on her plans to expand her oral history work to look towards the future of San Diego farming, her “energy budget,” and her priorities for her future. Wheeler wraps up by discussing what she has learned about using her “gift of gab.” San Diego Food Alliance ; future of farming 0 oral history Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:37.000 Okay. Good morning. This is April 28th, 2023. My name is Tanis Brown. I’m being assisted by Charlie Colladay on the camera this morning, and we are part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Lucy Wheeler is not only a member of our cohort, but she has also agreed to be an interviewee. So, we are very thankful, Lucy, that you’re willing to speak with us today. And I met you about a year ago when you stopped by the San Marcos Historical Society and brought some pictures of a famous artist from San Marcos. His name is Ted Wade. And you started to telling me about your experiences once you moved to San Marcos. And you handed me a little card introducing yourself. It said “Connecting the dots” which just was so intriguing to me. And then we had an exchange, and you were enthralled by getting involved with the Oral History Project. So, I’d like you to talk to our audience about how you got interested in conducting oral histories way before our project and some of the things that you’ve done since you came to San Marcos. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:03:42.000 Thank you so much for having me. It’s my pleasure to have been part of this program. The way I got started was I believe that everyone has been given a gift and thank goodness they’re not all the same because it brings different pictures to a project. And my gift, I think, was a gift of gab. And in this, back in the 1900s, 1930s, women weren’t supposed to do all this exploring and curiosity things. So, I kind of put a lid on that gift of gab and I prattled day and night. It took me a good number of years before I realized that I did have a voice, and once I found it and what I really wanted to say, I prattled less and listened more. And this is kind of how it evolved. And when I came to San Marcos, I had just retired at 80, and I thought I’ve carried this camera around with me all over. I’m going to go back and take better pictures. The first assumption from probably my classmates, but certainly people that I was photographing, was she must be coming back to take better pictures of her great-grandchildren. And that wasn’t the case. The case was to take better pictures and as I began to do that, I began to shut up and listen more and look more. And through this process—and I would like to say that it is not a matter of age, of when we discover what that gift is. It could start back in our 40s. It could—the 60s. Mine happened to be after I was 80 when I went back to school. 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:45.000 And where did you go to school, Lucy? 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:50.000 I have a degree in Business Administration from University of Minnesota. 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.000 Okay. 00:03:51.000 --> 00:05:26.000 And through an evolutionary process, I worked as a management consultant for Fortune 500 companies, and I’ve been in all 50 states and from the North Pole to the South Pole. I lived in Japan a couple of years. And through all of this, I’d had this mantra of “just keep moving.” Then I began to really listen and see that there’s stories. Everybody has a story. Everybody has characteristics and traits that they’d like to look for. And I’ve discovered that mine is actually interviewing. And it was through the help of Dean Nelson who is the head of the Journalist Department at Nazarene College. And he had just published a book at the beginning of Covid. Thank goodness he signed it for me. And I’ve been, through the last couple of years, taking classes through Zoom and keeping—working on it. So, I stepped into your offer at a perfect time and now my goal is to ask better questions so that when I’m asking the people that I’m interviewing, ask them the questions that will really make them talk about their true story, not the one that was—we all have kind of a fake story—but looking for that real story in people. That’s my goal. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:40.000 So, what I’m hearing you saying is that once you moved to San Marcos and found some educational opportunities—and I think you told me you went to Palomar College for photography class? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:06:57.000 Oh yes. That’s where I began to really explore that creativity and getting rid of the old ideas that just because I had a camera doesn’t—at my age—doesn’t mean that I’m just taking pictures of my family or my kids. I do street photography for the Chamber of Commerce here in San Marcos. Been doing that for about 4 or 5 years now. And I’ve been involved in that. My characteristic or habits of exploring were kind of construed as masculine traits back in the 20s and 30s. And not to express—Well, all of a sudden, I am expressing. And I think, for a while, where I live here viewed me as a likeable tomboy. (Tanis chuckles) And now, I’m not. I’m just this loveable little old lady who is curious and adventuresome and turning it all into a better perspective where I listen more and talk less. 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:12.000 So, going back to school in your 80s, how many of your classmates—Did you have study groups or go on field trips or anything like that to hone your craft? 00:07:12.000 --> 00:08:42.000 No. No. We had assignments that we were to go out and—like one was speed, just to photograph in proper way. And this was very unique. I went to a skateboard place. And this gentleman who was very well dressed and saw me with my camera had a little grandson with him. And he had a designer cap on, a little tricycle, and he was following his grandfather around. So, the gentleman came over to me and he said, “Excuse me. What are you going to do with those pictures?” And I said, “Oh. I’m taking a class, and the assignment is speed.” He said, “Well, if my son ever saw him on Facebook, he’d kill me.” And I said, “Really? Well, I’m not taking them. I’m taking them, the speed of these” who were really good skaters, just flying through the air with the skateboard. So, a little bit later, he came over and asked me, he said “So, you’re going to Palomar.” And most of my class, I would say 50% of us were older people who were looking for just honing a skill, something that they would really do. Most of them were people that were looking for to go out and hike in the desert, you know, and walk all night and wait for the sun to come up on the right spot. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:43.000 Ahh. 00:08:43.000 --> 00:10:13.000 But that wasn’t my intent. Anyway, he came over and he said, “So, you went back to college.” He said, “Hhmmm. The other day—” He said, “I’ve been retired now for about a year.” And he said, “The other day I went in to get a cup of coffee and my wife said, ‘Get out of my kitchen!’” (Tanis laughs) And he said, “What do I do now (shrugs) I’m retired and I don’t have anything really doing. I never thought of going back to college.” So, it’s exploring what’s available to us. And I’ll never forget how he was like “What do I do now?” (shrugs) And I see so many of my peers that are like “I don’t know how to get on Zoom. I don’t know how to handle Covid.” It has been a very upsetting time, and things are confused on any level. So, that was kind of the beginning of accepting my wonder and curiosity. And creativity was also considered back in the 2000s, well, especially during the Great Depression. Because survival was what you looked for. Curiosity was a waste of time. Buck up! And get out there and, you know, get the work done. 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:14.000 Okay. 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:15.000 So— 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:35.000 So, in addition to going to Palomar and taking photography and then, as I understand it, during the pandemic you got involved in interviewing or honing your interviewing skills. Now, tell me about how that got started. 00:10:35.000 --> 00:13:42.000 Well, there was a gentleman who is now I think the head of the photography department of the Union Tribune. His name was Sam Hodgkins. He had a workshop down at Balboa Park. And I was going to take an interviewing kind of class, of photography, photojournalism. And what he did was he told us about how you go out and you interview people out in the street, the vendors. And in that class, there was I think about 12 of us, 12 or 14, but there were 3 or 4 engineers. They were perfectionists when it came to the photography, but they didn’t know how to talk to people. I went out and with my gift of gab, “Hi. What’s your first name?” (Tanis chuckles) And I came back, and I had four. But there was one lady who was getting ready, and she had a keyboard. And she was getting ready to put it up and I said, “Oh!” The sun was just perfect on the keyboard. And the background was back, but her hands on the keyboard. And I interviewed her, and I asked her, she said “Well, I’m working my way through college, City College. And this is my way of making money, is with the tips.” And so, I went back, and we had to show these pictures. And I showed mine with the keyboard. And Sam said, “Whose picture is this?” And I said, “It’s mine.” (raises her finger and has a sheepish look on her face) And he said, “Now, that’s what I’m talking about. When you’re interviewing, get the photo that draws people in to asking the questions.” And I said, “Do you think I could make a living at this?” (both chuckle) And he laughed. And soon after that, in the photojournalism class, I had to interview a person who was doing what he was doing. So, I interviewed him. And we did it at the new public library downtown. And then, he and his wife—he’d just gotten married—went to Brooklyn, New York, and she was a writer, a journalist. And he was the photographer. And quite often, like in The Tribune even, you’ll have a photographer and then you’ll have a storyteller on a different aspect of it. But I kind of liked the fact that I can go out and take photos of the vendors, those candid moments that you try to get, and then ask them the right questions. And the more I practiced, the better it is. So, this was a great opportunity for growth for me, when I met you. But that’s how it all got started. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:14:04.000 That’s great. Well, your business card says, “Connecting the dots” and I think that’s a perfect description of what you do. And you talked to me a little bit about where that idea came from. You want to share that again? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:09.000 Um, I’m not sure. 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:14.000 The man you met at the dementia-- 00:14:14.000 --> 00:16:18.000 Oh! Yes. There was a gentleman who had worked with dementia people, and they were used to him. And he note—And he was there, and they were comfortable with his being there. So, they just kind of assumed that he was part of the woodwork. But he observed that as the family would come to visit the people with dementia, they might not know their spouse. They might not know their children. But if they were given a photo of themselves when they were young, like 17, maybe after they’d been in the service, that they would light up and just say “Ah. That! I know! I recognize that.” So, then he began to have them pose in front of like a sink if they’re washing their face. One gentleman had a smile on his face because he saw himself as a member of the service in World War II. So, he then imposed that photo of him, when he was young, into the mirror. So, he was seeing himself as young. Another one was a lady who was a nurse. And she was also getting dressed. But behind her was a different nurse, probably a therapist that was holding a walker. And the lady is looking in the mirror, of herself as a nurse, thinking “I should be the one that’s doing that because that was my job.” And you could see the confusion on her face in both of those pictures. Another was a pharmacist who was stirring his little cup of coffee and he saw himself as a pharmacist stirring, when he was young. So, I thought, you don’t really have to have dementia to remember that. So, I started practicing in that and it was enjoyable. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:41.000 So, the other thing I am really fascinated about is that, during the pandemic, that you took a wherewithal to look into continuing your education on Zoom. (Lucy chuckles) And so, how did you go about finding all these classes on interviewing or asking the right question? 00:16:41.000 --> 00:19:15.000 Well, I was fortunate in that I was in a—I was working in a medical laboratory in 1965. And at that time—it was in Minneapolis, which is where I had my degree in Business—they decided they were going to automate the laboratories. Sperry Rand and Control Data were both there. And at that time, there were more Fortune 500 companies in Minneapolis than any other city. That’s not the case now. But they were going to automate this laboratory. And this young man, probably 30, 35, was working for Sperry Rand and he said, “I know you people are really scared you’ll lose your job and there won’t be a need for you. But” he said, “this is just a tool. Technology is a tool. And it’s meant to help you, as a tool. What it can’t do is it can’t see the beautiful sunset where the Mississippi River and the Minnesota River come together. It can’t see the shoreline. It can’t see the sunsets. It’s just a tool.” I fell in love with technology then. And through my career as a management consultant then, I really came to appreciate more and more. I had my first computer when it was still a DOS. And quite different than it is now, much bigger. But I kept up with it and became kind of addicted to Windows. Now, I’ve changed to a iPhone because of Steve Jobs and his introduction to the school systems (Tanis laughs). But, and that’s another learning curve, switching from Windows to the iPhone. At any rate, then I was pretty much aware of the technology and its value when Covid hit. And I immediately was on to this whole thing. That was how I met Dean Nelson, any number of groups that would get—and you can talk to them and discuss things. And it was wonderful. It really carried me through the two years. I was not isolated because of that. 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:25.000 That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, truly, you know we talk about lifelong learners, and I certainly think that you are a perfect example of a lifelong learner! 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.000 Well— 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.000 And a lesson for all of us. 00:19:28.000 --> 00:20:15.000 —I think that all of us need to stop and look at what our gifts are and learn to develop them earlier. I’m grateful that I did. It all worked out in a constructive way. But we all have them. And it’s not everybody who is going to be an interviewer. A lot of people are really very, very creative. That has nothing to do with that. You don’t have to be an extrovert (both chuckle) in order to do that. So, I would encourage people to stop and think about the moment, not the future, not the past. But what do I want to have happen? 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:16.000 Yeah. 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.000 What do I want to express? 00:20:18.000 --> 00:21:20.000 So, I’d like to move our interview into now, once we got involved with this North County Oral History project. And during our first class—and we talked about our assignment and going out and interviewing at least two, and maybe three, people—you immediately knew exactly what direction you wanted to go in. And it was with the farming industry. And I was amazed because a lot of us that were in the class were kind of ticking off who might we interview. But you were really driven to capture some stories of people in the farming industry. So, I’m wondering how, where did that interest come from, Lucy? 00:21:20.000 --> 00:25:29.000 Well, I was raised on the farm in the Midwest. But I didn’t like it. Didn’t want to be there. (Tanis chuckles) It was isolated. It was, you know, not a—They needed men for the work of the farm. But the one interesting thing about this area is San Diego is the ninth largest city in the United States. But within its county, it has more farms—and especially para-farms—than any other county in the United States. That’s an unusual situation. I also know that it has 23 different kinds of soil that grows one thing on one area and then 10 miles down the road something else is better. They found that flowers and strawberries love the ocean whereas olive trees don’t. But inland, olive trees are great because the soil is different. The moisture is different. And, at the same time, there’s a crisis right now in our expensive way of living that developers want to develop the land rather than grow crops. And they would like to have condos instead of strawberries. So, it has put all of us into a very precarious situation about what’s the future of farming here. So, in order to know the past, present, and future, what better way than to go and look at the history. And, because I hang out at farmer’s markets—and in 2017 there were 5000 para-farms, which means 10 acres or less. They’re due to do a survey next year, 2014 (2024). This is done by the Farm Bureau. And I’d already been to their yearly groups and the Farm Bureau and that, and all of the farmer’s markets. And then when Vista was the only market that never closed during the pandemic. And he stood up to them and said, “If the grocery stores are open, we’re open.” And there were some vendors that came too. So, I had an inroad. So, I went back to a couple of vendors and started just curiously saying “Where did your farm start?” And I chose, first of all, the one that has the strawberry farm. And Mr. Nagata whose family came here in 1902 and was able to buy land at that time, and he married the Yasukochi family who were famous for their—everything from CSA. And their son, Neil Nagata, is the Farmer of the Year this year, here in San Diego County. Then I looked a little further and there was a farm up in north Escondido, close to Temecula, that is the Rodriguez farm. And they migrated here from Mexico in 1923. And I interviewed Joe Rodriguez who is the third generation of five in their farm. And then the third one was—and I have trouble with the last name on this because the gentleman was Italian, Capo-- (Cupaiuolo) 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.000 C. Susan C! (both laugh) 00:25:32.000 --> 00:30:01.000 Right! Exactly. And he passed away in 2020. But they had, he and his wife, had about 20 years of very successful cherimoya (sic) orchard which is very unusual and unique. And, as a side note, cherimoyas are only grown in San Diego County and Orange County. They won’t grow anywhere else in the United States because of the soil conditions and the moisture. But, at any rate, he passed away in 2020. So, I interviewed his wife. And she told about how they were able to make a construct of this. And this very representative, six acres, and very representative of how these farms that are under 10 acres can survive. And a lot of them didn’t during the Covid. They didn’t know how to market. They didn’t know how to sell their products. Their audience was gone. Instead of “Here’s my tomatoes I grew” where do the people come when the markets weren’t even open? So, there was a lot of things that her husband had contributed in that knowledge. He did a lot of work with Frazier Farms and promoted the cherimoyas (sic). And they had backups of ways that they survived. It was very, very interesting. And it was through this past adventure kind of thing that I’d been doing anyway that I continued then with that and pursued it, and fortunately found three families that had immigrated as well. So, as the techs from Cal State are doing these hashtags, you can look at it from immigrants that began farming. And especially the Rodriguez family was very interested in—because they’ve gone organic. And organic is a special kind of treatment that they have to go through to get their soil fertilized. It’s very costly. And yet he wants to promote now that he’s getting older. He would like to retire and just help younger people become interested in growing. Right now, the kids don’t want to be farmers. The immigrants don’t want to be farmers. Mr. Nagata told me that if they have to pay $15 an hour for minimum wage now to have people pick strawberries, they can’t afford, in this day and age, to sell wholesale. So, these things are all building up as to how they did it ; what we’re in the crisis with right now ; and then, with this San Diego Food System Alliance, look at new ways of developing foods that maybe we’ve never thought of before. Hydroponic (sic) gardening is one. There’s a few others—turning like—going against, not against, but seeing that milk products with cheese and that sort of thing maybe isn’t as productive for our own health as maybe almond milk that has plant-based cheese. And that’s scary to some people to think “Oh, my goodness. You know, let’s go back to the olden days.” (Tanis chuckles) And things change. No matter who we are or where we’re going. Attitudes change. Opinions change. Now, everybody has one whereas 70 years ago, no, you didn’t do that. So, it has been a really exciting time. I really love being out there and just talking to people about how did you do this and what do we do now? And where are my great-grandchildren going to go eat their lunch? 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:18.000 Yeah. I’m curious because you seem so well-versed in understanding kind of the food production and history and future, is there anything through the interviews that you learned that surprised you? 00:30:18.000 --> 00:31:01.000 Um, not surprised me so much. But it brought out how do you ask better questions to get answers from people? In the storytelling process, the interviewing process, which is my thing, you have to learn to listen, and then think about it. And I made a couple of mistakes. But sometimes you have to make the mistakes to realize that that’s another growing experience, you know. Like “Oh, maybe I could have done that better. How can I do that better?” And ask a better question in a better way. 00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.000 Mm-hmm. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.000 That’s what I think I’ve learned the most. 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:30.000 Yeah. So, for anybody who’s listening to this interview and might consider either being interviewed or interviewing someone, how would you recommend or promote the idea of participating in oral histories? 00:31:30.000 --> 00:32:27.000 Well, I think if they know what their interest is—and mine just happened to be agriculture—but whatever it might be, do all the homework you can. Do the research of what do I need to know to ask the right questions to get to my point? The whole purpose of an interview is what’s the point? And if the point is to make a better understanding so we can build on the future, great. Whatever that avenue might be, do your homework. And one of the best sources is Madame Librarian. They are great at helping you see sources. They know how to get on the internet and dig deep. And the deeper you dig, the more insight you get about asking the right questions. 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:44.000 Well, that’s great. So, as we wind down this interview, I would like to ask what’s next for Lucy Wheeler? (Lucy chuckles) What do you have brewing in your mind about where you go from here, Lucy? 00:32:44.000 --> 00:35:59.000 Last year, when we started this project, it was in September I believe? And right after that, the San Diego Food System Alliance had their second big global kind of meeting. And they met over at Escondido at the Center. And I went to it. And all of a sudden, I was in rooms with these future-thinking farmers of saying “I don’t even understand the language” because they had different speakers and different ways of presenting. And that’s when I started to say I need to dig deeper. So, I’m digging deeper into how this Alliance now is viewing the food system that they’re imagining. And part of it has gotten involved with the climate part. They’re trying to draw in it as well as drawing in all nationalities, not just one, and trying to understand it more global, really raise the arena. And I’d like to be part of that. And I had asked them when I went to it. It was just a few weeks after we’d started. And they just sent me, the next one will be in October. And they will be discussing this, and I’ll have a much better language to use by the time I go to that. And I don’t—I have—One of the things that happens as you get older is you don’t have the energy you had when you were 20 or 30. So, I have my energy budget more in focus on how I can put that into my future. And for however long. None of us know how long we’re going to live, you know, if it’s going to be tomorrow or 20 years from now. But, in that interim, I plan to just keep doing that kind of thing because it interests me and it’s my reason for getting up in the morning. But I don’t have the energy to spend all day on it. It’s putting it into priorities. And that’s one of my priorities, is that goal of being interested in what might I contribute to this. And we can. We just don’t think we can. We get caught up in our own thoughts of the past. And we don’t open our imagination. And these people are opening the imagination of what can be possible, maybe more healthy. I’m not sure. 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:26.000 More healthy. So, is there anything that I haven’t asked you about your educational process and your taking what you’ve learned and actually doing something about it in our little interview? Is there anything that I missed that you would like to tell our audience? 00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:58.000 No. I think that’s pretty much it. As we get older, things get into a different perspective like the energy. But there’s still the priority of what’s important to us. And one of the things that’s really important to me is to be able to feel like that I could contribute something. And that just means digging deeper. Not worry about my toe hurt when I was two. (Tanis laughs) 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:07.989 All right. So, just to clarify, what year did you come to San Marcos? 00:37:07.989 --> 00:37:08.000 2010. 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.000 2010. 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:57.000 So, the last 13 years have been dedicated to really honing in on something that I always wanted to do all my life. I think I was born with the gift of gab. I just didn’t know how to use it. And it took me a lot of years to figure out that it’s pretty nice to listen. And if you really stop to think about it, when you’re talking about the weather or you’re talking about the neighbor, it’s not always focused on what our traits or skills could be, what the energy level could be. It’s a distraction. And, yeah, I think listen more and talk less. 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:12.000 All right. Well, this has been a pleasure for me to have you share this with our audience and be part of the collection at Cal State San Marcos. So, thank you so much. 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.000 I have enjoyed it to the hilt. 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:18.000 Great. Okay, enjoy, Lucy. 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.000 Thank you. 00:38:19.000 --> 00:39:22.000 Take care. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wheeler, Lucy. Interview, April 28, 2023. Description An account of the resource Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-045 Subject The topic of the resource Adult students Education, Higher Family farms -- California Oral history Photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy Wheeler Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tanis Brown Charlie Colladay Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy Wheeler Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience