11 10 208 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5868aa45dc8ccb68d1cca5ba5329a1e3.pdf 4e18141c7775f6da6c315856ef7b7159 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Macchia, Jerry. Interview transcript, May 13, 1992. Description An account of the resource Interview conducted May 12, 1992 by CSUSM Library Dean Marion Reid with Green Tiger Press owner/publisher Jerry Macchia. In his interview, Macchia speaks to his experience in taking over Green Tiger Press in 1986; his work before taking over Green Tiger Press with a forklift company in Michigan; shifting from a printing house to a publisher model; the Press's original owners, Harold and Sandra Darling and Harold Leigh; and the general history of the Press, its logo and name, and business operations. Macchia delves into the sale of Green Tiger Press to Simon & Schuster in detail, and discusses his involvement in leasing the San Marcos, California former Green Tiger building to California State University San Marcos, where the university's Foundation operations were housed, as well as overflow shelving for the library. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jerry Macchia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marion Reid Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992-05-13 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Foundation California State University San Marcos. University Library Green Tiger Press Simon and Schuster (Inc.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived SC060: Green Tiger Press collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are unknown. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13_transcript https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8c75101abfa91c6d35fa317a91448fb7.pdf d312abf762d2c1644c0b3566f6ab710e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Macchia, Jerry. Interview transcript (ADA), May 13, 1992. Description An account of the resource American Disability Act accessible transcript of interview conducted May 12, 1992 by CSUSM Library Dean Marion Reid with Green Tiger Press owner/publisher Jerry Macchia. In his interview, Macchia speaks to his experience in taking over Green Tiger Press in 1986; his work before taking over Green Tiger Press with a forklift company in Michigan; shifting from a printing house to a publisher model; the Press's original owners, Harold and Sandra Darling and Harold Leigh; and the general history of the Press, its logo and name, and business operations. Macchia delves into the sale of Green Tiger Press to Simon & Schuster in detail, and discusses his involvement in leasing the San Marcos, California former Green Tiger building to California State University San Marcos, where the university's Foundation operations were housed, as well as overflow shelving for the library. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jerry Macchia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marion Reid Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992-05-13 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Foundation California State University San Marcos. University Library Green Tiger Press Simon and Schuster (Inc.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are unknown. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13_transcriptADA Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marion Reid Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jerry Macchia OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Macchia, Jerry. Interview, May 13, 1992. SC060-01 00:56:55 SC060 Green Tiger Press collection CSUSM csusm Green Tiger Press Simon and Schuster (Inc.) San Marcos (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Foundation California State University San Marcos. University Library Jerry Macchia Marion Reid .wav MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/3a1e78779fdcbc6ca72de2300690f56c.wav Other audio English Interview conducted May 12, 1992 by CSUSM Library Dean Marion Reid with Green Tiger Press owner/publisher Jerry Macchia. In his interview, Macchia speaks to his experience in taking over Green Tiger Press in 1986 ; his work before taking over Green Tiger Press with a forklift company in Michigan ; shifting from a printing house to a publisher model ; the Press's original owners, Harold and Sandra Darling and Harold Leigh ; and the general history of the Press, its logo and name, and business operations. Macchia delves into the sale of Green Tiger Press to Simon &amp ; Schuster in detail, and discusses his involvement in leasing the San Marcos, California former Green Tiger building to California State University San Marcos, where the university's Foundation operations were housed, as well as overflow shelving for the library. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.685 --> 00:00:06.504 Publishing because you've done a lot of other things. Can you tell me how this came about? 00:00:06.504 --> 00:00:37.384 Well, very easily, I think Marion, um, I had been involved in heavy industry for all my life and worked for a large corporation back in the Midwest. And, in 1977, at that time I was a corporate vice president traveling the entire world for Clark Equipment Corporation. 00:00:37.384 --> 00:00:38.000 These are forklifts? 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Forklifts. 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 The forklift manufacturer? 00:00:40.000 --> 00:01:40.075 Yes, that's, that's correct. And, the dealership or the franchise, whichever you choose to call it for the forklift division, became available in San Diego. And having worked for a large corporation for twenty-some years, you kind of become immune to a lot of things, and I was at that stage where I was ready to blossom into something, do something I--because I was at the stage in my life where I felt I could go to a management meeting and stand in the corner on my head for two hours and nobody would know if I was there or not. So the dealership became available and I've always had somewhat of an entrepreneurial feeling. And I thought, well, this is an opportunity for me to do what I really wanted to do. So I went over and talked to the vice president of marketing, who was a good friend of mine, and he said, "If you want it, it's yours." I was on an airplane in a week and I bought the franchise in San Diego. 00:01:40.075 --> 00:01:41.495 So you came here from Michigan? 00:01:41.495 --> 00:02:36.224 I came here from Michigan, uh, took over the franchise in 1977 with a forklift division. Unfortunately six months after that, I was stricken with a spinal cord disease that was certainly unknown to me and unknown to anyone else. It was just something that just came out of the blue and apparently was there from birth and something triggered it. I woke up paralyzed one day, and I'd had this company for six months. And anyway, to make a long story short, because I don't wanna bore you with all that, I kept that company for four or five years and then the doctors decided it was best for me to retire and try to get my body back together because they said, "You're never gonna walk again," and all these kind of crazy things. 00:02:36.224 --> 00:03:48.675 So I sold the company. And I retired for two years and became bored to death, and planted tomatoes and rose bushes and, you know, swam every day and just tried to keep myself physically able to move and decided it was time to go back to work. And having been on both sides of the fence, having worked for someone and then having worked for myself, I decided the only thing for me was to work for myself, which meant I had to find a company. And I went to a cocktail party one Sunday afternoon, ran into a banker friend, and he said, I do happen to know of a company that's for sale. And unbeknownst to me, it wasn't for sale, it was about to go down the tube &lt ; laugh&gt ; , but I found that out very soon. But anyway, that's how I bought the Green Tiger. It, uh, it was told to me by a friend. I went there the next week. I had several meetings with the former owners and we came up with an arrangement that was compatible to both of us. And that's how I acquired the Green Tiger Press. 00:03:48.675 --> 00:03:55.014 So you and your family worked with this new business. How did you learn publishing? 00:03:55.014 --> 00:04:59.475 I never did learn it, and I'm not sure I know it today, to be honest about it. Uh, perhaps I'm a little unique in my thoughts about business. Most people feel that when you're in business, you're in a specialty, whatever that business is. If you're selling yogurt, you gotta be a specialty in yogurt. If you're selling, you know, JCPenney shoes, you gotta be a specialty in shoes or whatever. I don't happen to feel that way. I feel that the basics of business are the basics of business and they apply to all businesses. And therefore, I feel that you can run a forklift dealership or you can run a publishing company if you know the basics of running a business. And that's my philosophy, and that's what I did. I said, "I don't need to know the publishing business. I need to have people that know the publishing business." I need to know how to run the business. They need to know how to publish something and make it sell. And so that's the philosophy that I carried into the publishing company. 00:04:59.475 --> 00:05:10.005 Well, this seems to have worked well because between 1986 and 1990, you very much turned the company around. 00:05:10.005 --> 00:05:10.016 Yeah. 00:05:10.016 --> 00:05:16.485 And, and I don't know more than doubled the profits or the earnings. 00:05:16.485 --> 00:05:25.785 We did that. We did both. We doubled the sales and we doubled the earnings. We took the company out completely out of debt. And so it did work well. Very well-- 00:05:25.785 --> 00:05:32.932 But what kinds of things did you do that caused it to change it--well, first of all, did you keep the same people? 00:05:32.932 --> 00:08:14.000 There were a lot of--there were a lot of pluses at the Green Tiger when I bought it that I will not take credit for. That were there. But they were laying dormant. They were just laying there and nobody was doing anything with them. For example, the product line was wonderful. The name had already been established, which was also wonderful because the name was, was well known all over the world and a good name. It had carved a certain niche in the marketplace that was there, and they had good people, but they were not utilizing them. So all I really did was took advantage of what was--what was there. I did not create anything. I didn't do anything. I just said to myself, it's all right there. So all you've gotta do is use it. And, the other thing that was very important, and probably attributes a great deal to the sales activity, to the marketing, to the increase in sales was in the publishing business, at least in that one--and in most--you use independent sales reps. You, never have your own sales force unless you're a huge, huge corporation like Simon Houston. Most small publishing houses do it through independent representatives. And that's what we did. The Green Tiger had maybe sixty or sixty-five (sales reps) at the time that I acquired the company. The problem was that the sales reps were not really sales reps because they were not representing the line. 'cause they were not being paid commissions. When they did sell something, they never got paid for it. So as a result, they were a sales rep in name only. So one of the very first things I recognized, because if I have a somewhat of a marketing background, I recognize the first thing you gotta do is get somebody out to sell your product. It can be the best product in the world, but if you have no one to sell it, it's not gonna go any place. So we had a--we called all the sales reps to San Diego. We had a special sales meeting, and as they came in, we presented them with a back commission check. So they were all paid right up to that moment. They were paid for all the products that they had sold that they never got paid for. That tended, of course, to-- 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:15.845 Get their attention-- 00:08:15.845 --> 00:10:01.000 --boost their confidence in the future. We showed them what our plans were for the future. We showed them some new products that we had developed that they became very excited about. And as a result of that, we got, uh, I guess what you could say, as much attention as you can get from an independent rep, because they usually represent 30 or 35 companies. So we got their attention, I think, that way. And then what we did is, we decided that we really needed to double the sales force. So we ended up with a 160 sales reps rather than--well, we did better than double because we only had sixty-some--we ended up, when I sold the company to Simon & Schuster, we had over 160 and we went international, in addition to that. We went into England, we went into Australia, we went into Japan. We were about to go into Mexico, but we didn't. But we would have if we hadn't sold. So we did go international to some degree, and we would've gone further inter international because there was there was a lot of opportunity there. So that pretty much tells the story of doubling the, you know, the sales volume. We took advantage of the expertise that was there of some of the people, the editorial people, the--some of the marketing people were very good. We had telemarketing people that were good, but they were not being utilized. 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:22.294 And we literally, from that point, cleaned house. And then we got rid of all the people, all the things that we didn't need, and that were really just kind of consuming, if that's a good word, they were consuming a lot of the good things, and they were really draining profits, draining resources with no results. 00:10:22.294 --> 00:10:25.575 Would doing the actual printing be one of those? 00:10:25.575 --> 00:10:46.995 Well, doing printing was certainly one of 'em and that's one of the very first things I got rid of. Was we got rid of the printing press, we got rid of the printers. We jobbed all of that out. We became, in the true essence, we became a publisher rather than a printing house. Which made a tremendous, tremendous difference in overhead. 00:10:46.995 --> 00:10:53.000 I read in one of the articles that you had people vote on--in order to select the manuscript. 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:54.000 Yes. 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:55.664 Who voted? 00:10:55.664 --> 00:14:30.000 Well, that's a very unique situation also. And we were not the typical public publishing house because most publishers have an editorial staff and they have editors just like a newspaper. We did not, we had an editorial committee which was made up of employees. And that committee rotated, and we would've committees, we would've people serving on that committee's from accounting, for example. We would have people on that committee that could have been from the warehouse, that could have worked in the, let's say in the customer service group, could have worked in marketing, could have worked almost any place in the business. And we would put them on the editorial staff. And that was made up of as many as seven or eight people at a time. And I chairmanned that particular committee, myself, and my wife sat on that committee. Uh, my son sat on it, and we used to receive--and this, uh, this is somewhat of an astounding number, and I still have trouble with it--but we used to get in the mail unsolicited over two thousand manuscripts a year. Now that's a l--that, you know, that would fill this room very easily. From floor to ceiling, and from wall to wall. And we of course could not read all of them. And we would read--we would scan/read as much as we possibly could. And the ones that we knew were not Green Tiger at all, because we had a certain image, we ha a certain niche, we knew what we were looking for all the time. And so probably 90% of them either went back to the person that submitted it or they just got thrown away. Uh, if someone sends something to you and requested to come back and they send you the postage, then you're obligated to send it back to them. If they just send it to you and say, please read my manuscript. if you're interested, let me know. Those we would just throw away. So what we would do is, as we had time, as people had time, as the employees had time that were on this committee, they would take manuscripts and they would read and they would just do that &lt ; inaudible&gt ; . They would throw 'em this way or throw 'em this way or throw 'em away or send them back. Or they would put 'em in a save pile. The save pile was then, you know, given to others on the committee. "I think this has got merit. Read it." So every night people would go home with stacks of manuscripts, and then we would have editorial meetings, and each person would say, "I think this has merit." And we'd end up with certain group, then we would all take those and read them, and then we would narrow those down. Then we'd get down to maybe fifteen or twenty, because we couldn't afford to publish any more than that in a year because publishing a book is very expensive. So we would then get down to a point where we would actually have to vote. And we did a secret ballot vote so that no one would influence the other party. And then after the vote was taken, we would publish it (the vote) and say, "Okay, we've got seven that wants this book. We've got three that says no, we got two that says yes, we got one that says doesn't care." You know? 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:31.225 Yeah. 00:14:31.225 --> 00:15:03.695 Those kind of things. Then we would get into a discussion stage about a particular book, and some would get scrapped and some would get maybe boosted up. And that's the way we selected what we were gonna print. And if it got to where it had to be a tiebreaker, I would usually be the tiebreaker. And we got to where we would publish twenty books a year in that fashion. And we did the same with note cards and calendars. 00:15:03.695 --> 00:15:11.825 So the manus--did the manuscripts include the calendars and the note cards or that was additional? Did you get the same kind of over the transom-- 00:15:11.825 --> 00:16:44.924 Well, we did get quite a few note card-things over the transom. We didn't get too many calendars. We pretty much did that ourselves. We knew what we wanted to do. Uh, note cards, we used to get a tremendous amount of the actual images. We didn't get the verses. We'd get the images, "can you use these images in your note card line?" We'd get a lot of that. And we used them. We used quite a few, but we, we did something that probably no other publisher's ever done and probably never will do. We figured that we could get, you know, more bang for the buck, so to speak, if you take images from the books that you've already published, and if the book is successful, you can use that same film and you can use the same image and it's all you have to do is put a verse with it and you've got an note card. So we--We just kind of thought we were a little smarter, I guess. Maybe we weren't, but we thought we were smart to do that because it saved us, and we--not only did it save us, but we were able to keep our card line fresh in that manner because we already had the images and then it's all we had to do was for someone sit down and very cleverly write a little verse to go with that. Or as you probably know, we published a lot of cards that were blank. And people could write their own image. They were all message, I should say. 00:16:44.924 --> 00:16:53.075 What can you tell me about the original publishers, the original owners of Green Tiger? I assume you, you met with them. 00:16:53.075 --> 00:16:54.830 Oh yeah. 00:16:54.830 --> 00:16:56.585 And there were three. 00:16:56.585 --> 00:17:04.733 There were three. What's that? &lt ; inaudible&gt ; then there were three, then there were two &lt ; laugh&gt ; . Anyway, there were three. Uh-- 00:17:04.733 --> 00:17:06.394 And Harold and Sandra Darling-- 00:17:06.394 --> 00:17:55.018 Harold and Sandra Darling were the, were the driving force of the editorial and the creative. And she still is in the publishing field and she's very successful. And so is he. And they now have a company called the Blue Lantern Studio. It's in San Diego. She is the author and the artist of the Carl series, the "Good Dog, Carl" series. I don't know if you know that book. Well, they did a whole series of Carl books now, She's done three or four of that book. We did the first one. And-- 00:17:55.018 --> 00:17:57.194 That's where I know it &lt ; inaudible&gt ; on the lift. 00:17:57.194 --> 00:18:38.434 Yeah. The Good Dog, Carl. And that's become very successful. And her whole series of that has become very successful. So, and now they have--they started this Blue Lantern Studio to assist other publishers as consultants and that kind of thing. They branched from that into, back in publishing and their now publishing their own books again. And I--and they are selling books to people like Farrar Strauss and people like Simon & Schuster. And so they're back on the road for recovery again. 00:18:38.434 --> 00:18:40.275 Well, Harold Lee. 00:18:40.275 --> 00:18:40.625 Harold Lee. 00:18:40.625 --> 00:18:42.983 What kind of function did he have? 00:18:42.983 --> 00:18:46.000 Well, Harold Lee, Harold Lee's function basically was the financial-- 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:47.694 Money. 00:18:47.694 --> 00:19:11.994 He was the money guy. He's the guy that had the money. Uh, he believed very strongly in their talent, which he certainly was correct. He believed in the ability to sell the product. So he did fund it, and he funded it to the tune of like 80 or 85% as I remember the numbers. 00:19:11.994 --> 00:19:17.545 Okay, so back in 1970, he contributed that. And had they had a bookstore, or? 00:19:17.545 --> 00:19:44.454 There's--there's somewhat of a, of a blank in my mind about that, Marion. They had, they started, as I understand it, with a card line. No, that's not correct. They started, I believe, with what was called the Unicorn Theater. 00:19:44.454 --> 00:19:46.275 Okay. 00:19:46.275 --> 00:22:48.674 Which was a small little theater in La Jolla that they rented, and they served European foreign teas, cookies and things of that nature. And they showed European films, and they gathered quite a following. And this was back in the, like you say in the seventies. They gathered quite a following. And, I understand it was--I've never been there and didn't know anything about it, of course. And never seen it. But I understand it was quite unique. And what they did was very unique. And they'd had people coming there every night to watch these foreign films, and they would drink foreign coffees and foreign teas and that kind of thing. And they branched out from that, I believe, to the card company. And then they branched into a company, I believe it was called the Mithras, I think it was the Mithras Book company or something like that, up in, I think it was up in the Hillcrest area. And they started being a book publisher. And so they started publishing books and only a couple. And they started, as you know, with the old and antiquarian-style books. And they used, for the most part, they used public domain material. But they did gather a few artists and authors that were more current that they needed to pay royalties to. And they started publishing in that manner, and they did quite well. And, I don't really know what happened to them financially. I really can't respond to that too well, except that in 1986, they were pretty well down and out and ready to close the doors. And that's when I was told about this company. And that's when I contacted the Darlings and with Mr. Lee and I had meetings with them. They had a consultant at that time running their company. They were not running it. They were, they were doing their little creative thing. Unfortunately, Harold Lee and the Darlings physically, verbally parted ways. They became, what you might even say bitter enemies. And he went his way and picked up his toys and went home. And they stayed and tried to run the business, and he just withdrew himself from it entirely. And he did not, of course, would not fund any more money to it. Uh, as a result, it just went downhill, downhill, downhill. They didn't pay commissions, they didn't pay salesmen. They, as I understand, some of the staff, they did not make payroll. Some of the people left, some of that were very loyal, stayed. And that's kind of when I entered the picture. 00:22:48.674 --> 00:22:50.479 Oh, I'll turn the tape over. Oh, this is fine. 00:22:50.479 --> 00:22:57.993 But I don't mean to ramble, but some of these things come into my head. I'm sure you're not gonna use all this material, but-- 00:22:57.993 --> 00:23:01.214 Oh, we'll use what you choose &lt ; laugh&gt ; 00:23:01.214 --> 00:23:05.785 And what you choose, because I think that it should be a joint effort here to make it what you want. 00:23:05.785 --> 00:23:12.000 With the logo. I read something that indicated that the logo was somehow related possibly to the Detroit Tigers. 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.535 Yes. 00:23:13.535 --> 00:23:18.184 The logo being a big Tiger head and then green-- 00:23:18.184 --> 00:23:20.000 Well, that's not the logo, that's the name. 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.934 Oh, that's the, okay. 00:23:21.934 --> 00:23:23.625 The name Green Tiger. 00:23:23.625 --> 00:23:24.875 Okay. 00:23:24.875 --> 00:24:38.000 And Marion, I'm not gonna swear that this is true because I don't know and it's always been a mystique because I could never get anybody to tell me the truth. And I shouldn't say the truth. I could never get anybody to really tell me where it really did come from. Because everybody I talked to said, I don't know if this is for sure, but this is what we think. This is what we heard. And the predominant story was, and is to this day, that Harold Darling, who was the founder with his wife Sandra, was and still is a very avid baseball fan. My understanding is that his favorite team at that time was the Detroit Tigers. And I was born and raised in Michigan, which was only a few miles from Detroit. And I was a Detroit Tiger fan. He is a little bit younger than I, but I don't ever remember the Detroit Tigers wearing green and white striped uniforms. But I was told that they did. Now, whether they did or not I can't say, but at any rate, I was told that that's where he came up with the name Green Tiger. 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:39.424 Okay. Okay. 00:24:39.424 --> 00:24:58.000 And from that point on, it was called the Green Tiger Press. And they developed the logo was developed, I believe, by a man by the name of Richardson. It was called a Richardson Tiger. And it was green and White tiger. And that's where that logo came from. Which you've probably what you've seen on his catalog. 00:24:58.000 --> 00:24:59.755 Yeah, on catalogs, okay. 00:24:59.755 --> 00:25:12.535 And so I adopted that as our corporate logo when I acquired the company. And I just said, I think this ought to be the corporate logo. So I copyrighted it and had it as our corporate identity. 00:25:12.535 --> 00:25:22.829 Now, I understand that the Green Tiger Press had not only the printing presses back when the Days had it--the Darlings-- 00:25:22.829 --> 00:25:23.973 Darlings. 00:25:23.973 --> 00:25:31.345 Darlings. But it also had antiques. And did they have a children's book collection as well? 00:25:31.345 --> 00:25:34.674 Yes. They had a very, very large children's book collection. 00:25:34.674 --> 00:25:35.000 What kind of antiques-- 00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:36.000 Very old-- 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.000 --do they have? 00:25:37.000 --> 00:26:35.000 Well, let's take them one at a time. The book collection, Harold Darling is a collector. By nature, I mean, that's his--that's just him. He's a collector. He collects everything. He has a great, great fondness for children's books. And when this started in his life, I don't know, but he collected children's books for many, many, many, many years, and still does to this day. He probably has the largest, most valuable children's book library in the city of San Diego. Maybe in the entire world for all I know. The last count I knew he had well over 5,000 volumes. And these will run the gamut from, you know, you name it, Wizard of Oz all the way on up to whatever you want to talk about. And, uh, original titles. And he just acquired them from all over the world. 00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:36.021 And he still has them? 00:26:36.021 --> 00:28:03.384 And he still has them. That's correct. He still has them. Now, that was an asset of the Green Tiger. However, the library being really his, he collected it, and part of his contribution to the Green Tiger was to give that to the Green Tiger as, as a monetary contribution. And it was to be used to take material from that library, and they redid many of those old books that were in the public domain. You go back to Little Red Riding Hood, for example, if that's over fifty years old and he had the original, they would redo that book. Or they would take images and make note cards from those old books. Uh, in the negotiations, we structured it so that the library really would go back to him because it really was his, and it was more, let's say, it just meant more to him than it meant to me. I looked at my role in the Green Tiger as a business venture, and although I had a great love for books also, but--and still do--but not like his. And so the really--the library should have gone back to him, and that's where it did go. And he has it today. 00:28:03.384 --> 00:28:05.958 Did the antiques come with the press? 00:28:05.958 --> 00:29:05.714 The antiques were--you're talking about tangible physical furniture type antiques, and there were many of them at the Green Tiger Press, and they all stayed with the Green Tiger press. When I sold the company to Simon & Schuster, many of them went to Simon & Schuster. The ones that they chose that they wanted, the ones they did not want, I retained, and I still have some of them today. We did call the Darlings and tell them what was left there, and if they had any fondness, they wanted something, some sentimental value, to come and take them. And they did. There were a lot of old things that were there and that I felt should have been in their hands rather than in mine. And there were some lots of signs that she had painted and she'd, you know, hand drawn, and there were some old, old cabinets and old antique pieces that they wanted, that they took. 00:29:05.714 --> 00:29:09.484 How did you come to move to San Marcos? To move the company to San Marcos? 00:29:09.484 --> 00:29:16.000 Well, I don't know if you know where we were located or not, or downtown-- 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:17.000 C and India. 00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:19.234 Yeah. Right next to the trolley. 00:29:19.234 --> 00:29:20.000 Next to the trolley. 00:29:20.000 --> 00:30:24.000 Yes. The trolley--well, actually the trolley started on Ketner and C, and India was the next corner. And we were on the corner of C and India. Well then when the renovation of downtown started, they decided to build that huge great American Plaza building on the corner of Ketner and Broadway. As a result of that, the trolley station had to be moved a block eastward, and as a result, trolley station then ended up right opposite our building. Which forced us literally to completely turn around our entire operation. We couldn't use the side doors. We couldn't because the tracks were there and they put, you know, the stations there and everything. So we literally had to do a lot of things. They were chewing up the sidewalks. The big Shapery building went up. Have you been downtown? 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.974 Mm-hmm &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . Yes. 00:30:25.974 --> 00:30:41.000 So, you know. The big Shapery building went up. And in the meantime, after I acquired the company, it was owned by an elderly Chinese family. And-- 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.000 The building was? 00:30:43.000 --> 00:32:29.000 The building was. And unbeknownst to me--and this is my own error--and I have no one to blame, but myself, I did not look at the lease thoroughly enough. I read the lease, but I didn't look at the bottom line. And the bottom line, there were no signatures. Meaning that the former owners never signed it. So--and there was a first option to buy the building. Well the option was valid--or it was voided because it was never signed. So I lost the opportunity to buy the building, which I would've done, but I lost that opportunity because it was not signed. And so the YMCA, which was right on the corner of Broadway and India, they, at that time, their mode was to buy that entire block. They wanted the entire block. And their purpose was, was well-founded. They wanted to build a high rise hotel, to take care of servicemen and their families and that kind of thing. So they wanted that, that Green Tiger building very badly. So they ended up buying it from this--from the elderly Chinese man that owned it. And so we entered into a lease with the YMCA. Well then the renovation of downtown started. And all these buildings, these highrise buildings were going up all around us. I mean, literally around us. Front, back at each side. Trolley was here, the big highrise here, big highrise here, another big highrise here, and then this big brand new great American Plaza going right across the street. Trolley going underneath. The sidewalks were being torn up. The jackhammers were going every day. The pile drivers were going every day. It was absolutely, it was terrible. 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:31.000 Constant hassle. 00:32:31.000 --> 00:34:20.844 Constant. It was awful. We lost all our parking facilities. We lost our water every day. We lost our electricity every day. Our computer went out every day. It was just, it was just godawful. And as a result of that, I just said, I've gotta get us out of here. And living in North County, I naturally wanted to, to move to North County. And maybe that was a selfish motive on my part. Uh, I don't know. But with my handicap, driving to San Diego every day was certainly not easy. And because that was an hour and 15 minutes every day and every night. And that was not an easy thing. And no place to park. I had a handicapped parking place that I negotiated with the city, and then they finally tore it apart by--because they even tore the sidewalk up, you know? So I had no place to park my car. It was awful. Anyway, make a long story short, I found this building and--I looked and looked and looked and looked--and I found this building in San Marcos. That was the building that we're talking about. And, it was just a shell. There was no interior at all. It was just a shell. And the man that had--that developed that whole business park went into bankruptcy. And as a result of that, that building was foreclosed on as well as others in there. And so I negotiated a purchase for that building. And fortunately, like I say, it was not built out inside, so we were able to design it ourselves. So we designed the entire inside of the building ; the upstairs, downstairs. And we bought the building. My wife and I bought it independent of the Green Tiger, and we leased it back to the Green Tiger. 00:34:20.844 --> 00:34:25.000 So what functions did you put on the two different levels? 00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:51.934 Okay. The, the upstairs level was all office. Accounting was upstairs, the computer systems were all upstairs. The receivables, you know, all of the accounting functions, the editorial functions were upstairs. The sales functions, marketing functions were upstairs. Customer service was upstairs. The mail room was upstairs. 00:34:51.934 --> 00:34:54.614 So how many people had-- 00:34:54.614 --> 00:35:15.000 We had that pared down when we moved, we had it paired down to thirty-five, I think. In that, from that area, the balance, um, was all warehouse functions done in the warehouse. And, warehouse: we had racking, of course, from floor to ceiling and all our inventory-- 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:16.000 In the warehouse. 00:35:16.000 --> 00:36:32.065 In the warehouse, Proper. We did all our receiving, did all our shipping, all our warehousing, we did all of our quality control. We did all of our manufacturing. We did some manufacturing of cards. We built--we made all our own cards, except print. We didn't print them, but the hand-tipped cards, I don't know if you recall those or not, where you would just get a blank card that would open up like so, and on the inside would be a hand-glued image. Those were called hand-tipped cards. And we had a group of Thai ladies from Thailand, and we had six or seven of them. And they did all the quality control, and they did all the hand-tipped cards. And the quality control, they literally would go through every page of every book and we would not put a book in inventory that had a blemish, a nick in the corner--it was very, very strict on quality control. And that was one of the things that the Green Tiger image was excellent. And it was there when I bought it, and we did not let that go down, that state. 00:36:32.065 --> 00:36:42.000 What heavy equipment did you have it--on the first level? There's some heavy duty electrical outlets there. 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:49.094 Heavy duty, well, we had our computer, for one, which was a large mainframe computer. 00:36:49.094 --> 00:36:50.735 But on downstairs-- 00:36:50.735 --> 00:36:52.000 Oh, downstairs. In the warehouse. 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.000 Yeah. 00:36:53.000 --> 00:37:00.804 In the warehouse we had all the racks and they're heavy duty, of course, because they went from floor to ceiling. 00:37:00.804 --> 00:37:03.435 And those had books and paper. Books on them. 00:37:03.435 --> 00:37:05.000 Books. All books. No paper because we didn't do any printing. 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:06.000 Okay. 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:10.000 Um, occasionally we'd buy paper, but, but, but very rarely-- 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:12.114 Stock of cards, group of cards-- 00:37:12.114 --> 00:37:17.000 All the cards. All the cards. All the books. Finished product now we're talking about. 00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000 Yeah. Right. 00:37:18.000 --> 00:38:04.000 Uh, always boxed, very heavy. So with the racks were heavy and, and loaded, of course, they were very heavy. We had lift trucks. We had a, what was called a shrink wrap machine, which was over backed in behind the staircase. And we had the shipping department, which was consisted of a lot of heavy, you know, heavy tables and things that nature ; scales, automatic scales, that type of thing. Nothing extremely heavy. And the computers, like I say, were upstairs. And then we had a large, that large huge carousel. I don't know if you ever saw that. 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:05.000 I did. 00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:06.000 You did see that? 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:07.000 Yes. 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:20.000 Yeah. Well, we had that and I--beyond this, of course, I was--I was hoping that you could find a use for that, because it was so beautiful, I thought, but you couldn't. And I still have it, so-- 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:21.000 Uh-huh good. 00:38:21.000 --> 00:39:00.074 We didn't, we just couldn't let it go. We still got it because it was--we designed it and we built it. We still have it. But there wasn't anything any heavier than that upstairs, except we had an old antique press that was probably--probably close to a hundred years old or older. Manual operated press with a great big huge wheel that was tremendously heavy. That was upstairs. And we had some old antique church pews and things of that nature upstairs. And, uh, nothing really heavy. Nothing beyond the press. 00:39:00.074 --> 00:39:06.000 How did you decide to sell to Simon & Schuster when you did? 00:39:06.000 --> 00:43:18.494 Well, that's an interesting, a very interesting story, Marion. I really did not have the company for sale. The company was not for sale. I felt like we had a long ways to go before we were ready to try to sell the company. And besides, we were having fun and I didn't really want to sell it. There were days that I wanted to sell it because of, basically because of my disability, because it was very hard for me some days. And, especially when we were downtown, it was extremely hard. But as I say, the company was not for sale. And one day, I guess it was in '89, might've been latter part of '88, I had a call from Simon & Schuster, and it was from the Vice President of Acquisitions from Simon & Schuster. And I don't know if you know much about the Simon & Schuster Company or not, but anyway, they are the largest publisher in the world. Book publisher in the world. They grew to be that way by a lot of acquisitions. They bought a lot of companies, although they were a large publisher to begin with. They're owned by Paramount Studios in Hollywood. And Paramount, I'm sure you know, with what Paramount owns, and they own about everything you see on television practically. And they own Simon & Schuster. Well, anyway, the vice president called me and just said that they have been looking over my shoulder for four years, and I didn't know that, of course. And they said, we like what we see, and we'd like to come out and talk to you about a possible purchase. And naturally, I was taken aback by that. And I just said, "Well, I'm really not interested in-- not in the selling mode right now. And, you know, maybe a year from now or two." And they said, well, that's fine, you know, but we're in San Diego often, and, you know, could we get acquainted and could we maybe have dinner or whatever. Well, one thing led to another, and one thing led to another. And after probably eight or nine or ten dinners, we were pretty well-acquainted. Marvelous company, uh, marvelous people and wonderful people to do business with. And, it reached a point where they just wanted the company really bad. And I guess that I had to make a business decision, and the business decision said, sell it. And so that's what I did. And, I think in the long run, I made the right decision because I think it would've--well, timing wise, it certainly was right. And I had no magic, you know, I didn't have any magic ball to look into or anything. I didn't know the recession was coming, but from a timing point of view, it was a good time. And I think from a health point of view was a good time because it was harder for me every day. And I don't think that--I don't think we could have gotten an offer like we did from anyone else for a long time. And I can't think of a better company that could have it. And because they're doing well with it. They, they've carried on, I think is as much of the Green Tiger image is as could be expected in a large corporation. Because a lot of it, a lot of the little things got lost. Uh, but everything, I know that it's being carried on pretty much the way it was. 00:43:18.494 --> 00:43:30.835 I'm gonna change the tape again. Okay, now. Well, what do you know about what's happened to the employees who worked for you for Green Tiger? 00:43:30.835 --> 00:44:15.000 Quite a bit actually. I could probably give you names of everyone that I, but I won't do that. But, there were four employees that I recommended to Simon & Schuster that they hire, because their intent was to move the company to New York, which they did. And I knew that the Green Tiger would lose all its image if some of the people didn't go. So I recommended four people. They interviewed all four people, and for various reasons, only one decided to go. 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:16.295 But one did. 00:44:16.295 --> 00:46:49.764 But one did. And probably the most important one, the sales manager, a young lady, uh, twenty-seven, twenty-eight years old. Young lady, Rita Eggers is her name. And she's a very high energy girl and very bright girl, knows the publishing business very, very well. Uh, she know--knew how to put on trade shows. She took care of all the reps. She served on the editorial staff. She did a little bit of everything. And if she needed to go down and wrap the pack and the shipping department, she would do that. I mean, she was that type of person. So they got a very good employee with her. And I understand she since has had a promotion and she's doing quite well. She's running the Green Tiger division, as well as a couple of other smaller divisions that are associated with children's books. So she's doing well. And I think they did well by hiring her. The others, the other three that I recommended for their own whatever personal reasons, just didn't want to move to New York or whatever they were. I don't know that. The others, um, one of them who was kind of my general manager, went to work for Hardcore Brace downtown in San Diego. The controller still works with me. And, the most of the people in the warehouse kind of scattered and they all landed on their feet because they were all young people. They were all thirty-five or less. There was two elderly gentlemen, that I understand, did--they did both get jobs, out, I think even better for them because they both lived out in the East County so they didn't have to drive down that way. And the Thai ladies, I understand some of them went back to Thailand. I understand one of 'em went to Los Angeles and works now with a relative up there. And then I think a couple of them, from what I heard, went to work in Thai restaurants. So, they're going to school in addition to that. So I think most, for the most part, um, everybody just landed on their feet and came out fine. 00:46:49.764 --> 00:47:04.804 You mentioned before we started the tape that the card portion of the business did not, well, Simon & Schuster bought it, but didn't do anything with it for a while. What has happened to it? Where did it go? 00:47:04.804 --> 00:47:59.954 Well, they decided, I think after a few months that they did not want the card business. They'd never been in it. And they decided, you know, why should we do this? It's small, it's really not worth their--they're a billion-dollar corporation, so why mess around with a little three or $400,000 card business? And, so they just left it all with me. They left it in the building and they left all the inventory there. They left everything to do with the cards, and they put it up for sale. And it took a little longer, I believe, than what they had anticipated to sell it. But they finally sold it to a company in Santa Barbara, a young company--a young couple. Husband, wife--and I'm sorry. I can't, I just can't think of their names. 00:47:59.954 --> 00:48:03.000 So did you then send, ship the things--stock to them? 00:48:03.000 --> 00:49:32.114 Oh yeah. Oh yes. In fact, I was instrumental in helping sell the company. I worked with Simon & Schuster very closely on it. I took the people to the building. I showed 'em the inventory, showed 'em the film. Showed 'em the catalogs, you know, counseled them with everything that I knew about it. And they ended up then negotiating with Simon & Schuster. And they ended up buying the company. And then we helped them get everything shipped and moved. And it's there. And I understand that they just came out with their first line, I think. I think in fact, I believe it's this month. Come to think about it, it's May. And, I think they'll do well with it. I think they made a good purchase. I don't know what kind of whether--I don't know anything about the economics, so I don't know what that means, but knowing Simon & Schuster, I'm sure it was a fair transaction. And, these people were in the card business and they were very enthusiastic, and I think they'll do well with it. They were Green Tiger fans, and that's how they found out about it. So they had a lot of the books at home with, for their kids, and they had a lot of cards. And so they were kind of in that niche that buys Gold Tiger so they knew a little bit about it, and so I think they'll do fine. 00:49:32.114 --> 00:49:44.000 How long did it take to vacate the building itself? I assume Simon & Schuster didn't buy everything inside like the racks. I don't know, did they? No. 00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:48.775 No, no. Oh, yes! They did buy the racks. Yes. I'm sorry. Sure. They did. Yes., they bought the racks. 00:49:48.775 --> 00:49:51.114 So all of that was literally shipped to New York? 00:49:51.114 --> 00:51:12.914 All of it was shipped to New York. They--they bought the company in December of 1990. By March, by the end of March, everything that they wanted, with the exception of the cards, was gone. The racks, everything. We--well, one exception, the lift truck stayed until the cards because we needed the lift truck to load and everything. So the cards, when once the cards were shipped and everything was gone, then we sent the lift truck to New York. And that took to I believe October. Uh, so Simon & Schuster literally rented the building from me for almost a year. For close to a year. They rented--I shouldn't say the building, they rented partial. You know, I just, it was square done with a square footage thing, and they rented just enough square feet to keep the cards there. And there was some, there's some machinery to do with the cards, but just little things. And, so we rented that portion and then the building sat until we rented it to the university. 00:51:12.914 --> 00:51:16.255 And how, how did that happen? I know you-- 00:51:16.255 --> 00:51:16.755 The university-- 00:51:16.755 --> 00:51:21.454 You and Dick Rush got together and talked about this. And eventually the foundation has leased it. 00:51:21.454 --> 00:52:43.414 Yes. The Foundation actually leased it from me. Yes. And not the university, but the foundation. Uh, the way it really happened, Marion, I have a good friend that's on your board. In fact, I have two good friends that's on the board, the foundation board. But Bill Daniels and Tony &lt ; inaudible&gt ; , and Tony just mentioned to me one day that he would--that he had come out of a board meeting. They were looking for more facilities. And one was--I think he said something to do with books or warehousing catalogs. He didn't know. But he just said, "I think your building would fit them very nicely." And I always sat in my office and I'd look at up, and I could see the university right from my window. And I could say to my myself, gee, that they--they ought to use this. They need this building for something, you know, surely they've missed something up there, &lt ; laugh&gt ; . So anyway, I called Dick. He (Tony) told me, gave me name, a number, and he said, "Call Dick and talk to him." And so I did. And my wife and I went out and met Dick for lunch. Took him to the building and he just thought it was perfect for what he wanted. And then he--I think he had a few hurdles to cross, as you can, as you know-- 00:52:43.414 --> 00:52:44.565 We're a state agency. 00:52:44.565 --> 00:53:27.344 Yeah. He said, "I'll get back to you." And I said, "Okay, Dick, when will that be?" And he said, "Well, you're dealing with the state." And, you know, it took a few months. But anyway, then he got over the hurdles and they decided the best way was to lease it to the foundation, not to the university. And then he turned it over to Pat Parris. And I dealt with Pat, who was a wonderful person. And she has a wonderful staff also. And so I worked with Pat and then we got--we finally got it done. And then we had--we went through the hurdle of the god-ever-loving fire marshal, the State Fire Marshal. You probably know that whole story. 00:53:27.344 --> 00:53:29.085 Oh yes, I know--I know some of it. &lt ; Laugh&gt ; 00:53:29.085 --> 00:53:44.855 So we finally did that. And then they said, well, you gotta put in some doors and you gotta do this, and you gotta do that. And you probably know all about that too. So we put in those two new doors in the front, and then we just finished putting two new doors in the back. And I--in fact, I hope they're done. Do you know, are they? 00:53:44.855 --> 00:53:46.414 I don't know. 00:53:46.414 --> 00:53:57.264 I hope they are, they were supposed to have been done, I think last week. But anyway, all that got finished and I think you guys took the building over in January. 00:53:57.264 --> 00:54:02.324 Yes. We had computer equipment coming for the library the week of January 6th. 00:54:02.324 --> 00:54:03.324 I remember that. 00:54:03.324 --> 00:54:08.000 Yeah. And Pat was very concerned about it right before Christmas. 00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:11.436 Because she knew she had to have a place to put those computers. 00:54:11.436 --> 00:54:20.655 Right. And it turned out they sent them to us, to our current location, and they sent them early. So we stacked them up when somebody went away on Christmas vacation. 00:54:20.655 --> 00:54:22.295 Oh, I didn't know that. 00:54:22.295 --> 00:54:26.000 And they were already there, so that Pat had an extra week. So it just worked. 00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:28.875 Worked out. 00:54:28.875 --> 00:54:35.934 Yeah. Because we had computer installation on the 14th. The morning of the 14th. And training on the afternoon. 00:54:35.934 --> 00:54:52.264 Yes. Because I was in the building. In fact, I was there. I don't even know why I was out there. I was there for something. I guess it had to do something with the doors or something. Because we had to put that one door in the base, in the warehouse on the side. By the steps. 00:54:52.264 --> 00:54:53.635 Right, right. 00:54:53.635 --> 00:55:02.684 And I don't know what I was there for, but anyway, I just happened to go upstairs and everybody was up there in the training program. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. Well. 00:55:02.684 --> 00:55:05.514 Well, I thank you very much for-- 00:55:05.514 --> 00:55:06.494 Did we cover everything? 00:55:06.494 --> 00:55:14.655 --everything. &lt ; inaudible&gt ; , I think we have been through all of the questions. Is there anything else you'd like you ask to add? 00:55:14.655 --> 00:55:45.000 Uh, the only thing I would add, Marion, is that I've done on, I've been in business--well, I'm 62 years old, let's put it that way. And I've been in business a long time, and I've met people all over the world and I've done business with people all over the world and all I can--what I'd like to say is, and I don't know what you wanna do with this, or maybe nothing, but I'd like to just say that I've never met a finer group of people than what you have. 00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:46.000 Oh, thank you. 00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:54.824 They really have been wonderful, everybody. This one fellow that, was involved with the fire marshal, Al. 00:55:54.824 --> 00:55:55.744 Al Amato. 00:55:55.744 --> 00:56:11.445 I'll tell you. He was wonderful. But of course, everyone has been. Pat and Dick and Bill Stacy and--we've had lunch a few times together--and all of them. And you're the most recent and you're not--you're wonderful too. 00:56:11.445 --> 00:56:13.744 &lt ; laugh&gt ; . Well, thank you very much. 00:56:13.744 --> 00:56:43.000 But really, I do mean that sincerely. It's been a real pleasure for me. Well, and I just hope that we can have a long--you know, I'm not a big founder, but I'm a founder, and I feel very proud of that. I feel proud of the fact that I'm associated with the university because I think it was desperately needed, and it's gonna be more needed in the future, I feel. And I just hope that nothing, God forbid, I hope nothing happens that slows the progress. 00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:44.614 Well, we appreciate your support. 00:56:44.614 --> 00:56:51.335 Well you've got it. And I'm out beating bushes for Dick right now. In fact, that, that's one of the reasons I was in here today. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright. audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are unknown. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13.xml MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/41 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Macchia, Jerry. Interview, May 13, 1992. Description An account of the resource Interview conducted May 12, 1992 by CSUSM Library Dean Marion Reid with Green Tiger Press owner/publisher Jerry Macchia. In his interview, Macchia speaks to his experience in taking over Green Tiger Press in 1986; his work before taking over Green Tiger Press with a forklift company in Michigan; shifting from a printing house to a publisher model; the Press's original owners, Harold and Sandra Darling and Harold Leigh; and the general history of the Press, its logo and name, and business operations. Macchia delves into the sale of Green Tiger Press to Simon & Schuster in detail, and discusses his involvement in leasing the San Marcos, California former Green Tiger building to California State University San Marcos, where the university's Foundation operations were housed, as well as overflow shelving for the library. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC060-01 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Foundation California State University San Marcos. University Library Green Tiger Press Publishers and publishing -- California -- San Diego -- History Simon and Schuster (Inc.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992-05-13 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jerry Macchia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marion Reid Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Community history CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b7e2e7222d260ca5443d68b16165a3cd.pdf 906ec8914dc64d4d28d2752d91f3e08a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Macchia, Jerry. Interview transcript, May 13, 1992. Description An account of the resource Transcript of interview conducted May 12, 1992 by CSUSM Library Dean Marion Reid with Green Tiger Press owner/publisher Jerry Macchia. In his interview, Macchia speaks to his experience in taking over Green Tiger Press in 1986; his work before taking over Green Tiger Press with a forklift company in Michigan; shifting from a printing house to a publisher model; the Press's original owners, Harold and Sandra Darling and Harold Leigh; and the general history of the Press, its logo and name, and business operations. Macchia delves into the sale of Green Tiger Press to Simon & Schuster in detail, and discusses his involvement in leasing the San Marcos, California former Green Tiger building to California State University San Marcos, where the university's Foundation operations were housed, as well as overflow shelving for the library. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jerry Macchia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marion Reid Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992-05-13 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Foundation California State University San Marcos. University Library Green Tiger Press Publishers and publishing -- California -- San Diego -- History Simon and Schuster (Inc.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC060-01 MacchiaJerry_ReidMarion_1992-05-13_transcript Community history CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b180c3edcbc49ffa0dfcf47128e107e3.pdf cd2ab238d19462ca59858d0d63ae7f4e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Carr, Jim. Interview transcript, September 26, 2017. Description An account of the resource Jim Carr spent 24 years at California State University San Marcos working for the Distribution Services team and was instrumental in implementing the first barcoded inventory tracking system for the University. Jim discusses his time working for CSUSM as part of Distribution Services and how his education and background led to him this job. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jim Carr Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-26 Subject The topic of the resource Barcoding Distribution Services California State University San Marcos Fixed asset tracking San Diego State University Sustainability Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CarrJim_DownieJudith_2017-09-26_transcript License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Linda Kallas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joanne Tawfilis OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview October 31, 2022. SC027-052 01:11:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Military base closures ; United States. Army ; United States. Navy ; Muramid Arts Center (Oceanside, Calif.) ; Mural painting and decoration ; Bosnian Women's Initative ; Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 ; Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina ; International Atomic Energy Agency ; Unesco ; Art Miles Project Joanne Tawfilis Linda Kallas mp4 1.0:|18(13)|37(10)|52(10)|63(18)|75(9)|88(4)|102(6)|112(4)|126(7)|138(9)|149(7)|159(14)|169(10)|188(12)|198(5)|208(14)|218(3)|227(14)|242(9)|252(6)|268(6)|278(17)|287(9)|297(7)|310(8)|320(20)|330(11)|348(5)|359(6)|374(6)|384(15)|397(8)|408(13)|417(3)|428(8)|441(17)|451(5)|467(3)|476(18)|486(15)|496(11)|508(12)|519(5)|529(12)|540(11)|550(11)|559(5)|570(13)|579(12)|593(6)|607(11)|621(5)|630(4)|641(10)|655(13)|665(4)|676(5)|690(12)|701(4)|711(13)|728(15)|740(15)|749(7)|766(4)|776(13)|786(11)|798(10)|814(9)|825(13)|841(9)|854(16)|862(8)|953(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b2580fba038f13dc496911c1023b4dcf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Interview with Joanne Tawfilis by Linda Kallas, October 31, 2022. Linda Kallas ; Joanne Tawfilis 0 45 Early life and childhood Tawfilis talks about her early life, where she was born in New London, Connecticut and offers a brief introduction to her family. Family ; New London Connecticut ; Filipino ; Dad 0 90 Moving and living in California Tawfilis talks about her moving to California, as well as mentions how San Diego County is one her favorite places she has ever been to. It is here where she also discovered her sense of community through the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. San Diego ; 1971 ; travelling ; retirement ; moving ; Multicultural center ; Oceanside 0 240 Career as an artist Tawfilis talks about how she started her career in art, from doing illustrations with the U.S. Government, United Nations, and civilian sectors. Tawfilis's career included working at the Submarine School in Connecticut, the Navy and country's Bicentennial, and as an International Military Training Coordinator. Tawfilis also speaks to the impact of Chicano Park. Military ; United Nations ; San Diego ; Chicano Park ; Submarine School in Connecticut 0 597 International Work Tawfilis describes her time doing work both for the military and the United Nations. As part of her work with the military, Tawfilis did bas closure studies. Tawfilis was offered a job and moved to Germany, and from there had the opportunity to work in almost every European country doing base closures. Tawfilis also worked for the Vista Volunteer Program and then the United Nations. It is through these experiences that she learned other languages and honed her people skills. It is also through this opportunity that Tawfilis worked in countries going through turmoil and war, such as Somalia, and Cold War Germany, where she worked closely with the constant unrest around there. Military ; Travel ; United Nations ; Germany ; Austria ; Army ; Kettle Falls, Washington ; Europe ; Atomic Energy Agency ; United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi ; Sergeant Shriver ; Peace Corps ; Americorps ; Vista Volunteer Program ; Africa ; Somalia ; AIDS ; Gigiri ; War ; Germany ; Austria ; Cold war ; Berlin Wall ; Army Management Staff College 0 1077 Work with the United Nations Tawfilis talks about her time working with the United Nations, the conditions of U.N. employees that are local nationals, and briefly speaks about why she was car-napped. United Nations ; Vienna ; Austria ; Africa ; Kidnapping ; Bosnia 0 1211 Work in Bosnia / end of her career Tawfilis speaks about the end of her career, close to her retirement. Given a choice of working at the Pentagon or working in Bosnia, Tawfilis took a position as the Director of the Bosnian Women's Initiative (commonly known as the Widows of Srebrenica) in response to the Srebrenica massacre of six to seven thousand men. This choice led her to eventually work in an orphanage, where Tawfilis worked with children in creating art. Tawfilis mentions her TED talk "Painting Outside the Lines" where she goes into more detail on the project. Bosnia ; retirement ; Washington D.C ; Army ; Serbia ; Women ; murder ; TED Talk ; TED-X ; UCSD ; Orange Coast College ; Orphanage 0 1645 Artwork through the Orphanage Tawfilis describes her time working for the orphanage, and explains how working for the orphanage, led her to her passion for art through the children there. Tawfilis also began to work on murals honoring specific tragic events.&#13 ; &#13 ; Orphanage ; Children ; Yesterday and Tomorrow ; Art ; Religion ; Bombings ; UN ; Connecticut ; Art Mile ; Avenida de Los Artistas ; Foulad 0 2129 The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center Tawfilis describes setting up the The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, which is the first mural museum in the world. She explains here how they came up with ideas for various murals. She also breifly describes how they are made, using objects such as PVC to make the murals in multiple dimensions. Tawfilis also mentions how their murals are located all over the world. Giza ; The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center ; Pyramid ; Egypt ; Oceanside ; Irvine ; Japan ; Murals ; International Decade for the Culture of Peace 0 2280 Art Miles Tawfilis talks about the art project referred to as "Art Miles" which is a series of murals that spans a long distance. Mural themes have included peace, unity, and women, and also tackle issues from every human and natural disaster. The project has also done murals on cultural creations such as sports and music. Tawfilis details some of the murals and what they represent, and speaks to mural making as a form of self improvement and healing, in response to their often tragic origins. Women ; Art Miles ; diasters ; Murals ; climate change ; Children’s Environmental Health Network ; Music ; Sports ; Japan ; Guinness Book of World Records ; United Arab Emirates ; NCAI ; Africa ; Native Americans ; Guiness Book of World Records 0 3036 Murals, continued Tawfilis talks about how the ideas of the murals spread, and how they are able to reach out following a tragic event and create a mural for that community, hoping for something that will mean a lot to these people, instead of payment. Tawfilis also talks about some of the logistics of running a non-profit that creates murals. non-profit ; emotion ; Creator ; non-governmental organizations 0 3283 Sprituality, people, and culture in the murals Tawfilis speaks to the importance of culture and representation -- especially of indigenous cultures in murals, and that the Muramid's global scope is vital to North San Diego County's fabric. Catholic ; Connecticut ; Mission ; Luiseno ; North County ; Indigenous communities ; Diversity 0 3433 Enslaved Africans and indigenous peoples Tawfilis gives a background of slavery post-civil war and a loophole that was used to continue to bring enslaved peoples into the United States. Tawfilis speaks to how in Oceanside, the gentrification and commercialization of the area is leading to the destruction of its natural beauty and history. Tawfilis mentions the Muramid's ties to UNESCO as a Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. Tawfilis also speaks of Mexican and Luiseño peoples, how similar their experiences are with the destruction of their local communities for the sake of tourism and advancement. Slavery ; Mobile, Alabama ; Africa ; History ; Mural ; Commercialization ; Oceanside ; UNESCO ; Center for Peace for all of California and Baja ; Mashantucket Pequots ; Mexicans ; Indigenous people ; Machu Pichu ; Egypt ; Valley Arts Center ; Luiseño 0 3834 Future initiatives &#13 ; Tawfilis discusses her future plans which include writing books, finding a home for twelve miles of murals, and the Endangered Planet Foundation. History ; Murals ; Books ; Smithsonian ; Endangered Planet Foundation ; Cave Men ; Machu Pichu ; United States ; Expressing Emotion 0 4063 Final messages Tawfilis expresses her final thoughts, from acknowledging each other's differences in opinions, to never giving up on a goal like going to school. She also has one last moment to share her awards and how proud her father would be of her seeing her accomplishments. Opinions ; differences ; awards ; PhD ; Arlington National Cemetery ; Filipino ; North County 0 Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. &#13 ; &#13 ; Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Linda Kallas: Today is October 31, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Joanne Tawfilis as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you for joining me today, Joanne. Joanne Tawfilis: Thank you, Linda. Glad to be here. Kallas: It’s my pleasure. I’m going to give you some questions, and you’re going to answer them and to the best of your ability and we’ll just keep moving through the questions. Okay? Tawfilis: Okay, sounds good. Kallas: First of all, when and where were you born? Tawfilis: I was born in New London, Connecticut, and, um, a long time ago, (laughs) almost seventy-seven years. Kallas: And was your family an active part of any cultural communities where you grew up? Tawfilis: Actually, my family was one of the first Filipino American families in the town that I was born in. Um, we had a huge family, and then another family came and there was sort of a competition between the two families on, I think, who could have the most kids. Kallas: Oh! (chuckles) Tawfilis: And I think my dad won! (both Joanne and Linda laugh) Kallas: Um, so you didn’t grow up in North County. You moved here how many years ago? Tawfilis: Oh, it was—I moved here probably, um, in 1971, was when I first came to California. But then with my career I traveled all over the world, so I was back and forth on a regular basis. Uh, I had children and grandchildren here, and when I retired in the year 2000, I decided to settle here in paradise. (nods) Kallas: Nice. And how do you like living and working here since then? Tawfilis: Oh, I love San Diego County. Out of all the places I’ve ever been, I think that what I—I love the weather like everybody else, but it’s very multicultural, and, uh, makes life interesting that way. And grandchildren will always keep you where you are going to retire. Kallas: Um, do you feel like you’re part of the community? And do you have a support network? Tawfilis: I feel very much part of the community in many ways, but on―in some ways, no, because we’re—we’ve kind of discombobulated in this county where North County is kind of separated. But, I—my community is global, so it makes it a little bit interesting for me to try to be part of this community, despite the fact that I am, uh, running a multicultural center. Oceanside seems to be very focused on downtown and tourism, and, uh, I wanted to be here, even when I was downtown when we had our, um—it’s our studio and our center and our museum, the first mural museum in the world in Artists’ Alley. I—I thought we were really integrated into the community, but when—when I had to move out and come down here, it’s been a little different because we’re—we’re—we’re not considered you know neighborly, I think, is my—my feeling. We—we—we’re here. I love being part of being imbedded into the community, especially the indigenous community, because the Center was supposed to be focused on multiculturalism, with the focus on indigenous people. Kallas: Um, so prior to doing what you do now at the Mural Museum and the Art Miles, you had another whole career. Can you talk a little bit about that? Tawfilis: Yeah. I started out doing illustration work with the U.S. government, and when computers came out, they scared the heck out of me, being a non-technical person and being kind of a—I think, at that time, a very snobby artist (laughs), and then when people tell you what they want painted on, or drawn with specific directions, I had to question “Why, then, do you need me, if you’re not going to use my creative brain.” And the computer-generated art didn’t appeal to me because of that. Although now it’s grown into such a great variety of software programs, you can do almost anything, even with your own art. But as a young artist, I didn’t see it that way. So I worked for the military for most of my career in civil service, and then later on, combined my civil service career with the United Nations, and got to travel, a lot! Kallas: Um, so, some of the work—you want to talk about some of the work you did for the military, Civil Service department? Tawfilis: Yeah. After doing illustration, um, at the Submarine School in Connecticut, where we—where I was born, and my ex-husband was military, we traveled and that’s how I came—came to California. Um, and I worked really hard doing graphics here. Um, I rose in my career there to, to when the Bicentennial happened in, uh, 1975–76, the Navy and the country’s Bicentennial, and I got a little bit famous because I coordinated the whole military celebration down at the Broadway Pier , and things like that. And, then when, uh, uh, I went as far as I could, as far as a illustrator, was go—was my part of my career, and they started to do more and more graphics. I mean I worked at every military base in San Diego that you could think of. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then an opportunity came to become, uh, the first civilian and woman to be a, an international military training coordinator, and that’s how I got really involved with the international work, because the job was to be like a cultural, um, leader for the military people that came and their families, and setting up Friendship programs, and ex—not exchange programs, because these were, these were guys that were being trained on the equipment in the ships that we sold as part of the―what they call an international military exchange training program, I met and several others. So, I worked through all the bases doing that, and really loved, um, starting programs for the military and introducing them to American culture. And that was my real first experience, and getting international people to know the native cultures. And I did a lot of—I spent a lot of time down in San Diego, and Chicano Park, and I used to have the military, even the officers, lay down in the, the big, uh, like a pagoda―I’ve forgotten what you call it (chuckles), I think this is my senior moment―um, and look up to see the Inca and the Maya—Mayan civilization paintings, ‘cuz that’s where Chicano Park is sort of visualized and painted in amazing murals. And I did part of that on the bridge, the bridge stanchions that show how the Mexicans and the Spaniards came, and the farm workers came. And that was a lot of indigenous peoples from Mexico. And that got me interested. And then coming from Connecticut and New England where we had a lot of Native American tribes, a lot of international people ask about what happened to all the Indians in American culture? And a lot of—back then, a lot of international people only knew about cowboys and Indians, like most of us when we were growing up, you know, decades ago. And it also—it was very interesting to me because my minor in college was Native American Studies. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And that’s how I got introduced to it. But, you know, it was something that you think of academically, although it struck my heart because I was really angry at our educational system for not letting me know, among others, that where I grew up and lived most of my, you know, young adult life prior to college was Indian country. I mean, one of the thirteen colonies. And people don’t realize what kind of impact that had, has on people when you’re growing up. So, that affected my, my heart always. So, when I—in my career, I’ve always had that as a, I want to say, a big influence on what I’ve done to, to teach international people when I travel, both with the military and with the U.N. Kallas: Now, did the military send you to other countries as well? Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. I ended up—I started out doing, like I said, the international training stuff, but then I was on the base closure team, where my career went way up as far as getting higher promotions and better pay, and stuff like that. So I ended up, after doing base closures in most of the San Francisco Bay and Hawaii area, my territory was, I was one of twelve people that did the base closure studies. And then I had an opportunity—kind of as a fluke—to apply for an international job with the Army, and my supervisor and I both did it, um, as a—I don’t know, we just got a, a bug to say, “Oh, let’s see what happens if we apply to do what we’re doing here in the States, doing base closures.” And so, they offered her a job, and she turned it down. And they said “Oh well, the next person on the list is right in your office. Can we talk to her?” That was me! And so I ended up going to Germany. At the time I had been working for the Navy for over twenty years, in different positions like I said, from illustrator to management analyst, and working at foreign training and base closures. So then I ended up going to the Army in Germany, and that was, uh, right after, um, the Bicentennial had ended, and then I did a stint with—I took some time, and got, went on loan as a Vista volunteer, and went up to the Nespelem reservation in Colville, Kettle Falls area of Washington. I got really lucky cuz’ my hero was Chief Joseph (chuckles) and so I worked on that reservation in a parent aid program. But that’s another whole thing that maybe we could talk about later. Because going back to the military, I did this closing the bases in Europe and I became one of the heads of the base closure team there, and that’s how I got to travel to just about every European country there was. And, um, from there, I got recruited by the state department and through my federal military civilian job, went to work for the United Nations in, in Austria after the base closure job in Germany, that I went onward to, um, working on loan again. I went on loan from the Navy to the Army, from the Army to the International Atomic Energy Agency, and on loan again to the United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi. I mean there were jobs in between, but, and like I say that the stint I did at—I got to continue my career, even though I stopped working for the military for two years to work on, um, the Vista volunteer program. When Shriv—Sergeant Shriver started the Peace Corps, he also started the Vista volunteer program, which is now, I think, Americorps. So I was in that first round. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And then I went back to civil service and continued on, and onward to U.N. Kallas: And did they send you to, um, war torn countries, and where there was a lot of political unrest— Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. Kallas: —as a representative? Tawfilis: Yeah. When I went to, um—well, I could say my first stint overseas in Germany with the Army was when the wall came down. And I had just adopted two more children, and uh, I remember during that time the―when the wall came down, my kids were like, like—they were adopted from Mexico, and then—but they were Americans in a sense, so they were Mexican descent. And it was really interesting for them to learn German, so you see two little Mexicans speaking in German (chuckles). It was kind of cool. And, um, but the war torn part of it was―my job was because the war was over, the Cold War, and the wall came down, the government decided that’s why they wanted to close the bases because they didn’t need that anymore. We had so much military might invested in Germany because that was the actual front, that it made my job easy because the, the common sense of the economic support that they did for Europe, um, on the, well, it was called the front, made sense to start closing the bases. And so, I became a superstar, doing that, because I had people skills, so the generals that I worked for decided that it was great to have a woman civilian go give the commanding officers of the base the good news and the bad news that their base was going to be closed. And as a result of that, I was one of four women chosen to be, um, a member or take part in a study to decide whether civilians should become executive officers of military bases. So, they sent us to Army Management Staff College, and I was one of the four women that attended that. And so, the idea would be that I would become an executive officer of a military base so they could station military in the field. The problem with that is there’s no military that’s going to listen to a civilian as a boss. So, you can ask my son-in-law about that, ‘cuz he was Army. In fact, my daughter met him there in Germany. But, yeah, that was one. And then with the U.N., when I went to Africa, there’s all kinds of―I want to say―conflicts going on, including Somalia, Rwanda, during all that time, and so, yeah, I saw a lot. In fact, I was car-napped and my own personal safety was in danger there, not only from being exposed to so many people that were dying of AIDS, but because of the tribal—there’s like forty tribes in Nairobi alone and there were conflicts and a lot of cultural differences between the tribal people and a lot of, um, little―I want to say―mini wars going on and the political strife, and then of course, it was pretty bloody with Rwanda and then Somalia in that area. But I got to travel all over Africa, looking at—my job there was to consolidate the U.N. organizations in Nairobi and the base was called Gigiri, and, um, I got in trouble there, because I tried to support the local indigenous people with the financial area. So, if you want to talk about wars, and danger, and stuff like that, I think people think of shooting, you know, and bombs and stuff. But there’s other kind of wars, like economic ones. And I came up with this idea that civil service employees in international organizations should be cay—should be paid equally. But they have this system in the U.N. where local nationals are―have to go through a wage classification survey and they get the prevailing wage rate, whatever that country is. So, in other words, my secretary in Austria would get $3,000 a month, but my secretary in Nairobi would get $300 dollars a month. Kallas: Oh... Tawfilis: Yeah. And I just didn’t think that made sense, working with the U.N. So, it was kind of a battle there, and I think that was the biggest war for me, is trying to help the local nationals. And I did some―I want to say―out of the ordinary things, like promoting them when other people went out on mission they would hire people to come in and pay them exorbitant amounts of money, including me, because I, I was on a stipend on a daily basis, in addition to my very high salary. But the work was done by the local people. I think that happens everywhere, that the real worker bees don’t get recognized for the, all the work that they do, and they carry on the mission of whatever that country’s, you know, objectives are. And so, I think that’s one of the reasons I got car-napped, because I had a big mouth and I actually wrote a book about how to flatten the United Nations. So, they sent me back. I was on loan from the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria to Africa, and because I tried to help the local people, I think I wasn’t going to go much further, after ten years, you know, working for the U.N. So, that was my personal battle when you talk about wars, and dangerous things. I mean, when you get to the point where they don’t want you to talk―and it wasn’t the U.N. that did it―it was a person that probably wanted the job that I had―that arranged for this kidnapping or car-napping that I survived. So… Kallas: So, you also, um, had spent time in Bosnia during that— Tawfilis: Yeah, at the end of my career— Kallas: —that was after all the— Tawfilis: with—I was getting ready to retire and, uh, because I was on loan as a very high-ranked civilian, the only place they could put me would be the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and I didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. I’d been at the headquarters many times with my job with the Army. I did a lot of stuff for the Army, like I said. And I really didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. So, they gave me a choice of going to Bosnia and working with the widows at Srebrenica, at the end of the conflict in the Balkans between the―where Yugoslavia had broken up. And I went on an interview sponsored by the Clinton Foundation to be the Director of the Bosnian Women’s Initiative or what they—most people know as the Widows of Srebrenica, where at some point they gathered the Bosnian women together―and I should say the Bosnian families together―in their village called Srebrenica which was a safe haven. And unfortunately it wasn’t a very well protected safe haven, and on July tenth and eleventh in 197―uh, 1995, the Serbs came in and gave the people ten minutes to come outside, and they put the women on one side of the street, women and children under fourteen and old people, real old people, and then they put the men and boys on the other side and then they took all the women, put them on buses and sent them to a village in the mountains, in Tuzla. And the men disappeared. They found some mass graves. They found some bodies in a forest where they were―tried to run away, I guess, some of the men. And, but they never found the whole―I would say, whole group of the over six to seven thousand. They, they suspect―there’s a lot of theories, and a lot of books written about it. But my job was to work with the women and help them do economic development and to heal and to also help identify bodies and get all their data because they had no pictures of their families. They had, you know, all this stuff that they—they left with nothing. And then to try to help reconciliation between the three entities, and I ended up, you know, working my, my heart and my head off, because working with people who have lost everything and witnessed the destruction of their country and their families getting killed and murdered and their men disappearing, and these were mostly farm women that didn’t even know how to write their name. So, I think I worked harder in my life those three or four years that I was there doing everything from gathering information to help put the war crimes together because these people were still on the loose. And then throughout the years, the military would find them and capture the war crime perpetrators and bring them to the Hague and they were imprisoned, and some of them—I won’t name names—passed away in prison before they could be tried. But it was terrible trying to identify remains with the women. Maybe it would be just shreds of a shirt but they recognized their husbands. And then having all that emotional—I think I have a whole book of stories I could write about their suffering. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: But because of that, I was encouraged to go work in the orphanage and there three hundred fifty orphans. I have a TED talk online, TED-X from Orange Coast College. And, it was―it’s called “Painting Outside the Lines.” I also have one from UCSD “Stem to Steam” because I put the art part in there. But back to the Bosnian situation and I guess as the point of my career that changed my life that we were going to talk about, because when I saw what the children had gone through and I―they―they told me—you were getting— I was getting very depressed, and they said “you need to go work in this orphanage.” So, the three hundred fifty orphans from all three entities, but they had not found or located all families. So, some of the kids had no survivors. I understand that most of them they were able to place them years later. But while I was there, my―my, uh, free time, if you want to call it free time, was to go and work with these kids to do art. And then after about three months of just sketching and coloring and stuff, they asked if they could make a very big painting and I interpreted that as a mural. And so if you―you’ll hear on the TED talk, how we found bed sheets in a closet that were full of sort of darned holes and the―they explained to me that the young ladies in Europe learn how to sew, which we did away with here in the United States. But there they sew everything. So, when they pulled out the sheets, and they had all these little stitches, and some still had holes, I, when I asked them what the holes were about, they said “Well, this used to be a hospital, and it was bombed. So these were from the shells and the shrapnel that, that, you know, made holes in the walls and the bedding and the whole bit of the ugly hospital beds over there.” So, what I did was the Army had left a 10-gallon pan―pail of white flat, white wall paint and I, I had them sew two sheets together and I put masking tape on the back where I thought there were the least amount of holes and then I just painted. I put a whole bunch of newspaper, and in the morning it turned into a very stiff canvas! So, we had a canvas and the kids got very excited. Every time I think about their faces when they saw that, and then it was like “Oh, we’ve got to paint that whole thing?” You know… Kallas: So, that’s when your two careers intersected, so you kind of went back to— Tawfilis: Right. Kallas: roots, and— Tawfilis: And I got to do art, right? So, but what changed my life were the, the children and the oldest one was about eighteen and then they had a little eighteen or nineteen-month-old baby in there, and they divided the kids up into groups of five. And they took two older, mostly teens, and then three younger kids, so they could take care of each other, ‘cuz they only had five people running this whole orphanage. There was psychologist, and then the other four were caregivers, and they cooked for them, and made sure that they were, you know, trying to keep them busy. There were—I don’t even think they had formal education for them, because there was nothing. And they were just being protected and fed, and trying—and I think doing the art was a real important thing in their lives. So, how my life changed was, the kids started—I said “you have to decide what you want to paint.” So, what they—I had them do, is I said “Draw something that you want on this canvas.” So, they all did it, and I still have some of the sketches. I should have brought some. But they, they, they had to come up with an idea that would go on the canvas. So, we looked at all the drawings and they started forming this dialogue and they started talking to each other. And you have to understand these kids were very depressed themselves, and they had these real— Kallas: Traumatized. Tawfilis: Yeah. They were all traumatized and they were kind of afraid of each other when they were—they knew that one was a Serb, and one was a Croat, and one was Bosnian. And they didn’t―they matched them up by age, not so much by what sect of religion they belonged to. So, and in children weren’t so attuned, maybe the older ones were a little bit more conscious of their religious differences, whatever. But in the discussions that they were doing, they started talking about the trauma that they had gone through. And some of the kids knew each other from the different villages that they had come from. And I found myself going outside, crying myself, because they started talking about what they saw, what they felt. And even now, when I think about it, it’s still—it burns a hole in your heart, but it —I wondered how this was going to work. And I’d go back in, and then they decided on a theme. And what was happening is they were going through a catharsis themselves, and they ended up with coming up with the theme “Yesterday and Tomorrow.” And the Yesterday section of this one―I guess we would call it a triptych in our art language, Yesterday, they did sketches of houses that had no roofs, ‘cuz they’d blown up. Airplanes dropping bombs, and then because the women were wearing kerchiefs because they were Bosnian Muslim, they had their heads covered. There, a lot of the little drawings had little pictures of women lined up, going, and they remembered having to come out of the houses in Srebrenica and line up on the other side of the street. So you saw ―you would see sketches of that, and dragons, and just ugly things that they, fires, things burning. And then the middle section where they had put the groups of five together, they drew their little new families, which was really cute. Kallas: That’s awesome. TAWFILIS: And then on the third panel was, were flowers and clowns and balloons and stuff like that. So they called it “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.” So after five days of going through that, I can say that was a life changer for me, and, and I was telling my husband about it, and we, we made that first mural, and he was in the process of constructing a new building, me, a gallery, and we called it Avenida de Los Artistas. So, we had a Spanish name in a German country, speaking country in Austria. We started , he started doing murals, or I started it on the wall, one of the walls of the museum that was being built, at the gallery. So, when I’d go back home, we were making murals, and after about a hundred of them we said “we should make this a project.” Because the latch kids would be coming, then the schools started sending kids over. So we turned it into a project, and actually Foulad, my husband, was the man who came up with the idea of calling it “Art Mile.” We didn’t know it was going to turn into twelve miles! But that’s how it started. And then at one point I met a professor from Wesleyan University, and I did some murals. The very first mural we did outside of Bosnia was in Austria. And then on one of my trips back to Connecticut, I met this professor from Wesleyan, and we did one at the university there. And he said “You need to tell the U.N. about your project.” And, so, there are lots of things going on, wars, conflicts all over. And so the United Nations had set up a program called the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And it was founded by Ambassador Chaudry of the U.N. who was at the time Under Secretary General for small developing nations and island nations. And he had written the resolution to start this International Decade from 2001 to the end of 2010. And so my husband and I had this crazy idea of going to New York and getting him to support it as a U.N. project. And at the same time, the son, the grandson of Jacques Cousteau heard about us, and said “I’d love to see what you’re doing. Maybe you should do murals about the sea.” So he flew from London and met us at the famous hotel in New York, and I was, while I was there to meet Ambassador Chaudry and said he would love to see us do murals about the oceans and the sea and the water. And at that time he was at grad school, I believe. And so our very first celebrity fan was Phillipe Cousteau, the son of Phillipe Cousteau, who passed away in a plane crash. He was one of the two sons of Jacques Cousteau. So we went on to the U.N. and just unrolled five canvases, one of them was done in Nairobi, and it went all the way down the hallway, cuz they were five feet by twelve feet, so we had almost fifty feet of canvas going down the hallway and Ambassador Chaudry’s office took up a whole floor of People in the U.N. building and they all came and looked at it and they all fell in love with the project. And that’s when we got his support and endorsement, and we started doing murals. And now we’ve got over twelve miles of murals from all over the world, which many of them are right here in this building. And our headquarters is in North County and Oceanside. Kallas: And that is called? Tawfilis: The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. We had it set up as the first mural museum in the world, and for people who don’t know the word “Muramid” comes from murals that were being constructed into a pyramid which we had set up a project. My husband came up with the design and he did the photography of over a thousand murals and did them in miniature because we were going to create the Muramid Pyramid at the great Pyramids in Giza. And at the time, we had also, I had retired. We had moved to Egypt. We have a home there. And my husband spent a lot of time and a lot of money. What we called Back Cheese, with the paying under the table to the Minister of Education, Minister of Culture, to do a fourth pyramid to be constructed with piping, I don’t know if they call it, it wasn’t the PPV―PVC piping, it was metal. And he designed that. And then a company here in Oceanside―not Oceanside,―in Irvine, “Supercolor Photo,” were kind enough to make the model and take my husband’s design of the miniature murals and make a cover. And we were able to have a ten-foot model that we were going, we used in several places. In fact, we have ten models all over the world right now, including Japan. And we participated in international conferences and things like that. And the whole idea was to have, to have (someone enters the room, off camera) I thought I locked the door, sorry. Anyway, the whole idea was at the end of 2010 we would have this celebration to commemorate the closing of the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And then, what happened was, because we had so many conflicts we ended up with a second decade, which ended at the end of 2021. Kallas: Now all of your—you have twelve themes for your Art Miles. Tawfilis: Mm-hmm. Kallas: Can you share a little bit about that, and what, what people gained from doing these murals? Tawfilis: Sure. The first thing that we did was Peace, Unity, and Healing. And then we ended up with the Women, because the women’s influence on art and healing. That’s where the healing part came in. And you know when you think about peace, unity, and healing, then you talk about women and their role in it. And then we started environment, because everybody started complaining, and worrying about climate change. And as you know, that has a subject that has increased so many, so much all over the world. And it’s happening. We’re all experiencing that. And then we started doing murals in response to every human and natural disaster. That’s even when 9/11 happened in 2001, it was a big deal and we did, like, many murals and actually exhibited some of them on, at Ground Zero. We were there, doing the mural, at Georgetown University on September 11. And we got sequestered into the hotel that we were staying at, because we were doing a Children’s Environmental Health Network thing. But anyway, back to the themes, so that’s how the environment started. We, the third one was Children’s Environmental Health Network where they actually did a film about us there. And while we were doing that, we ended up being, watching the Twin Towers come down. And then from there we started Children’s and then Fairytale and then Sports and Music, and so now we have Hero and we had—then we started the Japanese government, or I should say our Japanese team started doing an exchange program. They called it, they call it the International Intercultural Mural Exchange where they do half of a mural in Japan and the other half in another country, with another school. So, there’s four hundred forty murals for each themed. They’re all, not all five by twelve, some of them are half sized. But our goal was to at least get to twelve miles, and then in 2008 we attempted to break the Guinness Book of World Records. But three weeks before that, we found out that the United Arab Emirates had already done that with the longest mural in the world. And we couldn’t surpass it, because they, they would, they did like ten-mile, not ten miles, ten murals more than us. But, even the, the grand master, whatever they call them, that comes to do the, to officiate measurements stuff, said ours weren’t connected , and they want a continuous theme. So, what the, what happened with the United Arab Emirates, they did, they did, I think at that time, like four miles, about women, and it was done for International Women’s Day and they featured the, all the children. And all the schools did murals about the sheikah, or the queen, I guess. And then they had to burn it, because it was done on paper, and Islam doesn’t allow images. So, but they did break the record. Plus, it cost ten thousand dollars to bring the guy over, and we didn’t have that kind of money. We still don’t have that kind of money, because we do it all from our hearts, very few donations. Kallas: And can you talk a little bit of how the initial concept of murals has evolved over the years, compared to where you started in Bosnia, and to where you are right now with the murals. Tawfilis: Yeah. I think the biggest change is education. We found that education has come to the forefront because whenever, whatever thing you’re working on, it teaches you something, you know, whether it’s fairy tales that are originally thought of by children and from their imaginations or sports. There are―you learn what the sport’s all about. Music, the same thing. We’ve even had music murals created while people are looking at a mural and they write music about it. And then, or vice versa. Or when it’s in the indigenous mile. At one time we presented a—because I was in Connecticut at the time, we had someone present the idea of doing—we discovered there were five hundred fifty recognized tribes. And so they did a resolution at the National Congress of American Indians, NCAI, that each tribe would contribute a mural. But we got so busy, and then my husband passed away. We have never followed up on that. I don’t know how long those resolutions last. But I would love to revive it. But since that time, I’ve also discovered there’s a whole bunch of non-recognized tribes. And I think that has appealed to me more, because I feel like, how could you not recognize a tribe? I don’t care. I know that there, their requirements have DNA and numbers of members and whether they have a reservation or whatever. But, it’s not accounting, some of the tribes don’t get credit for just being there, and being there first. And they were decimated by whatever colonial tribe or―how would I say―shouldn’t be―that’s the wrong word―colonial influence that came in and took over those lands, even in our own wars, in the Civil War. Even before that, they, you know, the genocide of Native Americans is something that most Americans don’t even know about. They don’t even know about there’s so many tribes in every country that they went through the same thing. You know, the genocide of every African nation. There’s thirty-three countries in Africa! And most Americans don’t know that. There―you could go there, and you could say “The Dutch took over this country. The Italians did this country. The Brits did this.” You know. And they left their influence, but they also started slavery, and brought it here. And then―and I think that’s why there is a bond between a lot of Native Americans. When you―one thing I’ve even discovered more of later in my life is how Native Americans helped so many slaves, you know, following the Civil War. Protected them, and hid them, and intermarried, and that’s why there’s a lot of controversy among white people about―they had this concept the Indians were “red.” First of all, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a red person, or a yellow Chinese person, or maybe caramel, like me. (both she and Linda chuckle) And when you think of black, kids in school when you say “These are Africans.” They use black crayons or black paint. There are some very black people, I think. Some countries have all shades. India has black India people from East India. And Senegal people mostly are darker than most, you know. But there’s also a whole shades, hues of people. But like Aki, our drummer, says “Inside we all have red blood. We all have bones.” You know, and when we all die, you can’t tell, maybe by the―anthropologists will tell you about the skulls and the framework and stuff like that. But color? No. Religion, you know, that’s another thing. So, the other—to get back to your question. The other evolution has been healing. I think the focus now is more on healing, because we have so much―what’s the word―conflicts around the world. And then personal violence going on with school shootings and the massive massacres with massive killings all over and accidents and natural disasters, with hurricanes and floods. Right here in California, the fires, right here! They came right up to the back door here, you know. And if you drive up through the mountains going to, to go buy a pie, you’re going to find out. You drive through all the reservation areas and you see where the fires from the past―you see those still the black, some of the trees, and there’s a big contrast with the silhouettes of those trees and then the―now the overgrown greenery. It’s so beautiful, and you know, things like that. So, healing has made a big difference, because when people―and what I’m really, I think, what I’d like to share in this interview with you―is that healing isn’t just the murals that we send to the people who have been become victims and their families of those who were killed or injured in these horrible violent events or disasters. It’s us, ourselves. When each school shooting happens, how many parents and people with a heart feel that pain, of, of—I can’t—every time I hear of a school shooting, I think of those poor little kids, and I grieve for them and for their families and for the friends and the neighbors that were there. And my first exposure to that was actually the, the widows watching those children, and then 9/11 when the Red Cross had murals being done all over. We have some amazing murals that came from all over the country and the world, displaying their feelings. And one of them, one of the ones that stands out in my mind, is Hope, Alaska did one. And it, the whole mural is the word “Hope” but inside the word “Hope” they drew people, and a lot of native and indigenous people are in that. And then, when Sandy Hook happened from my, where I’m from, Connecticut, I went there, and to see those little children, you know. How can anybody go in and kill all those little tiny kindergarten kids, and the teachers? And then what people don’t know there’s, in America, there’s a place called Beslan, near Russia, where the radicals, and the— Kallas: Government was involved in― Tawfilis: Yeah, over two hundred people, two hundred kids and teachers killed. And then again, recently, you know, I mean we could go on and on. And every time we did a mural, it was like once or twice a year, and now, I mean, I think in July we had three shootings , and, you know, things we had to respond to. And actually, I’m behind! We haven’t been able to do, Massa from the, Mahsa Imani―Amini, from the―from Iran, because we’re so busy. We just finished Ukraine, you know. There’s just, St. Louis. All this stuff keeps happening. So, healing! Kallas: So, part of your process in dealing with this tragedy is there’s a healing element for you to respond to those through a mural. And you send those murals to those places, correct? Tawfilis: Yeah. And we’ve been lucky. Sometimes we hear back, and sometimes we don’t. Because you can’t expect everybody, every city and town, to say “Oh, gosh, all these people.” You know, people send food and clothing. And a lot of people do art and murals and flowers and, and stuff like that. So, I know, you know, part of giving, what people don’t understand is we give and we do murals from our heart. We don’t expect a lot in return. What I expect is when people paint a mural to send that they are sharing that same emotion that I feel that they want people to know that we’re thinking of them, and that we’re sending our prayers and good wishes. I know people think that a lot of non-governmental organizations do things for money. Well, we’re, we’re a great example of “No” (laughs), because― Kallas: Non-profit. Tawfilis: Yeah, we are a true non-profit. And my husband and I and a lot of people have contributed. We don’t have an overhead staff that we, we pay for. We can’t. We just don’t, you know. Thank goodness we have good―there’s so many―I focus on the good people and the good things that come. If I started thinking about what I have or what I don’t, you know, what I don’t have, with other organizations that get grants, and they have sponsors and philanthropists look at them, I would never be able to do what I do. At this age, I’m just now starting―we have a Foundation that we’re working on, and my goal is to finally, if I realize it, if I want to have a legacy in the name, in the memory of my husband who gave up his career, and out of my true care and I say, I want to say concern for people who are suffering, and indigenous people, I think that’s why I want it here. That’s what brought my here. I think the Creator, whoever your Creator is, my Creator is a number of spiritual things, that I saw this place that we’re sitting in right now before we opened the Muramid and Artists Alley. And my husband said “It’s too small. It looks like a house!” And it was full of crazy stuff that had been here before. So, it was neglected and smelly. It didn’t have high ceilings when we peeked in the windows, and he, he just kind of passed it on. But, something called out to me in this place. And I remember driving around one day after I knew I had to leave Artists Alley, because he passed away. I hadn’t, didn’t have the infrastructure and the help that I do now with Aki and his drumming and neighbors and friends and people that have helped put this thing together. I remember driving around and it still had a For Rent style on here―sign―and I parked the car and I called the guy and the property manager. And it was still in the same shape that it had been, I guess, six years before. So, this place had been empty for a while. I think maybe something might have happened in between, but I doubt it, because judging from when we did get inside, and there was a lot of feces, dead animals, all kinds of stuff. But I can feel this place. When we took down the ceiling, because it was that―what do they call it―insulation hanging down, and I looked at the wood, and I realized “Wow, this place was here a long time ago.” I didn’t know the history of the place, but I’ve been told it was the original general store for the Mission. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then when I found out about the Mission and, you know, being a Catholic, in a former life, I thought “Wow, this is pretty cool!” Then I remember reading, like other things in Connecticut, that there were people here before the Mission came, and I got really passionate about “I’m going to put it right there.” And I want to dedicate the place to the Luiseño, because I found out that they are the people that this belongs to. And everybody that comes in the door, every single person, I can’t think of one that hasn’t come in the door for the first time and goes “Wow! This place, it has such great karma. It feels warm and friendly, and it’s inviting and it’s good to be in here and it’s so creative.” And I went (claps her hands together) “Yes! That’s what we’re all about.” And so, I think we are an important piece of the history of this place because I feel like an archive in here, of some sort. And the Mural Project has found its home, and I think that’s an important part of being the history up here in the North County, to have a project that’s global in scope that has been participated in by over a half a million people from over a hundred countries. To land in a place that is based on what everybody should know about indigenous communities. My hope is that―and I started out with my husband and I both said, you know, before we wanted to feature different cultures, because we felt that Americans weren’t quite educated enough to understand the diversity and the richness of cultures from other people, and other countries, including this country, you know. There’s so many―and I don’t want to use the term “white”―but there’s a lot of American, white people who don’t understand that they came here from other countries as well. And in their own country, if they look back in their roots, they’ll find out that they come in different shades as well. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And that the stolen land―you know, recently I watched a documentary about Alabama where the last slave ship came in and it was against the law to even bring slaves after 1860 or something like that. But it was one ship’s captain who said “I can show you how to do it, and I’m going to prove it.” And he did it out of rebellion and brought a hundred and twenty slaves from Africa, made them get off the ship, near Mobile, Alabama, and in the water, the swamp, they got on to the land. I understand they stayed there for a few weeks and then they divided them into three different plantations. But they burned that ship in that. They said they wanted to get rid of the evidence. Well, that was a genocide in and off itself, of history. And now after four hundred years or whatever, they’re finding all these remnants. You can go anywhere, even here. When we started doing the back, we found a cross in the yard that, that must have been buried in the ground from whatever was here before. And I always wondered what happened and what’s going on with all this gentrification and the new building over there. It hurts my heart. And I talked to a Luiseño member who is one of our drummers, a woman, she said “every time she goes by” and she’s a school bus driver, she said “it hurts my heart.” Because she knows there’s another thing covering it up and erasing part of the history of this place. And I’m really sorry that, you know, recently the newspaper said “the wave just got approved with the valley over there, and the rest of the valley. And I live in a place that I look at that, and I, I could cry just thinking about it. Right across the street from Pablo Tac Elementary School. They’re going to build a wave park like we need one so close to the ocean? I mean, come on. Commercialization is just really destroying the natural history of many places including right here where we live. So, I’m hoping that the owner of the properties here will never let this place become that wave even though I can see a beautiful little old town here. You know, I like to see more cultural things happen here. And I’d love to see the cultural district expand from downtown to where the real history is here. I mean, uh, it’s to me almost sinful that we don’t put more emphasis on what the history of this area, of Oceanside, is all about. It’s all on the front, at the waterfront. It’s all commercial. They even destroyed the waterfront in my eyes, by putting all that, the hotels and stuff. Kallas: Well, in trying to put it all together here, in breadth and in depth is community building. Tawfilis: Correct. Kallas: Through the murals, through the other work you’ve done. It seems to be the main theme of your life, and now you have the Center. And doesn’t it also have something to do with UNESCO? Tawfilis: Yes! We recently became the UNESCO Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. And with that I think will help enhance my opportunity and all the people that work with us to bring more cultural education and healing to this area, and to educate people about what real peace begins with me, and our neighbors and our families. And then, you know, I know this all sounds very philosophical but it’s true, you know. And, um, I think we have a pretty good mayor who supports local people more than others that I’ve seen. Maybe it’s because I see her out there in the community more than I’ve seen other mayors do. And I know that she is of Mexican descent, but I also believe that Mexicans have a lot of indigenous people here as well. Kallas: Right. Tawfilis: And when I talk about Mexicans, I don’t mean that they are the invaders of the people that took over. They too have been, you know, victims of genocide. All this belonging to part of that. But the first people here from all the history that I have been able to do my own research on, were the Luiseños. And so, my passion and dedication is going to be based on that. I am going to be looking at other cultures and introducing the people of the world to our local community through this center. But this is―This year, the Valley Arts Festival will feature my dedication to that. As I have this painting behind me. It’s kind of weird that we have this Mexican lady, native, behind me, and then my dancer, and then I am going to do a dedicated mural to the Spirit of the Valley, and to the tribal captain and a woman who happens to be his sister who I think is, in my eyes, the official historian of just about everything that could ever happen to the Luiseños here. And I feel very fortunate, um, coming from where I do, and what I did in Connecticut with the Mashantucket Pequots to see them grow and have the best museum in my eyes, in the whole world, indigenous or otherwise because it’s interactive. To be with people that are still alive that I can talk to and interact with that live right here in this community. So… Kallas: So, going forward, what, um, what other projects are on the horizon for you. Tawfilis: Well― Kallas: Besides what you just talked about, are there other avenues that you’re going to pursue? Tawfilis: Oh, thank you for asking. Because one way of documenting history is books. So, I’m writing, actually there’ll be four books that I hope will be coming from me. But interacting with other people, we’re doing, taking the murals now, what am I going to do with twelve miles of murals? My goal is to convince the Smithsonian that they need to take these, because to me it’s a visual documentation of two decades or more of history by the people and for the people. This is their words, not some author who wrote a book about the history of something. It’s from all over the world, and it addresses social issues everywhere. So, what I’m hoping to do is we have a Foundation that we’re going to be―we are part of, called the Endangered Planet Foundation, and our project will, will be embracing that and taking the mural images and trying to create practical products from the mural images and raising money through the sales of textiles and books and things like that, tangible things that can go into a fund that will keep this project going, and long after I’m gone. Hopefully until then I can help form a solid board and we can end up hiring a staff which we’ve never had, to carry on this project, because I think it’s something that can continue. Mural art has been growing all over the world. The cave men have come a long way from their images to creating murals not just on walls but on canvas and ours is mobile. I wanted to have a voice for people that could be shared, not stuck on a wall that you’re never going to― I’m maybe some people will never get to Machu Pichu or to the Egyptian temples and pyramids or caves where we have here in the United States with etchings and things on them. So, this way we can bring people closer together. So that’s the future, is I want to leave a legacy and because I know what works. What other non-profit organization can survive for almost twenty-five years with no money? I’ll tell you why. Because people believe in it, and we believe in it with all our hearts and souls. And, as nearing my seventy-seventh birthday, I bypassed seventy-five because of Covid. I think we have proof in the pudding, so, yeah, that’s the plan, is to continue. Kallas: And speaking from personal experience, I’ve actually experienced the healing process and that sense of community where we’re all working on the same thing at the same time. There’s just so much unity in that and it’s very, you could really internalize that. Tawfilis: Well you know the big―bottom line is mural art gives you a chance to express yourself even with a group, because as you know doing quilt, we do that kind of style with murals as well, in different forms or whatever. You get to express yourself individually but you do it with a group and it brings you all closer together, and in doing so you talk to each other, and the bottom line is you find out how much more we have in common than we have in differences. Which sounds like a cliché, but boy it’s true. Kallas: It’s very true. Tawfilis: We actually do it. And we make ourselves, I mean, better people because we get to know and appreciate other people’s opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. We hear what they’re thinking and feeling, and we learn a lot from each other. And I think that’s how peace is going to happen, when we begin to open our minds and our hearts to understanding that we’re different but we all have the same basic common needs. We all want to eat. We all want to be able to have a home over our heads and feel safe. And the richness of having other cultures influencing your life―it’s like if you’re only going to eat American hot dogs and hamburgers, what a boring life that would be, right? (Linda laughs) I always think of it simplistically like that because you end up going “Gee, I like Thai food. I like Chinese food. I like Italian food. Whatever.” Well, that comes from people, you know. And so, the blend and the magic of seeing the dancing from, and the music, the different forms of music, and you can be native American and play rock-n-roll music. I happen to know somebody who can do that and do it well. Or a Filipino that can sing beautiful, musical songs. Or the homeless people with the choir that was started right here from North County. I mean I think that’s a great, you know, cultural contribution to history. So. Kallas: Well, Joanne, thank you so much. It’s been an honor and a privilege to do this interview with you. And I want to repeat something I recently told a mutual friend about you, that I truly think you are a work of art. Tawfilis: Oh, my goodness. Kallas: And I just thank you so much. Tawfilis: Well, thank you. And I also want to say that I did get a PhD at the age of 71. So, my message to all those who think that you never learned and you can’t earn a degree as you get older, you’re wrong. You can get it, and mine was honorary, and I’m really proud of it now because I used to think―I’m very humble about it because I do understand how much hard work goes in to doing a dissertation. I almost got there. I could have done that, but I traveled so much I couldn’t finish. But understanding that when you do a life’s work dedicated to something, I think it’s deserved. I’m saying that today for the first time, that looking back on my career, I did earn it. Kallas: Yes, you did. Tawfilis: And I’m very happy that my, if my dad were alive and I received a big award when I retired. I got the highest award you could get as a civilian and they gave me miniature medal. It’s from the military. As well as a big one. And when I went to Arlington I put that miniature beneath my dad’s cross at Arlington National Cemetery. And I, when I got my PhD, my first trip to Washington, D.C., afterwards I went directly there, and I told my dad “Guess what, dad? You wanted me to get an education, and I got a Ph.D.” Kallas: Wow, what a great note to close on. Thank you again. I really appreciate this. Tawfilis: Thank you. (Looking off camera to someone else) Did I put you to sleep? Unknown male voice: No, that’s a wrap. GLOSSARY: Aki (pg.11,12) Ambassador Chaudry (pg.8) Americorps (pg.4) Arlington National Cemetery (pg.16) Army Management Staff College (pg.4) Artist’s Alley (pg.2) Art Miles (pg.2,8) Back Cheese (pg.9) Base closure team (pg.3) Besan (near Russia) (pg.11) Bosnian Women’s Initiative (pg.5) Broadway Pier (pg.2) Chicano Park (pg.3) Chief Joseph (pg.3) Children’s Environmental Health Network (pg.9) Colville (pg.3) Endangered Planet Foundation (pg.15) Foulad (pg.8) Friendship Program (pg.2) Gigiri (pg.5) International Atomic Energy Agency (pg.4,5) International Decade for the Culture of Peace (pg.8,9) International Intercultural Mural Exchange (pg.10) Kettle Falls (pg.3) Luiseño (pg.13,14) Mahsa Amini (pg.12) Mashantucket Pequots (pg.14) Mural Museum (pg.2) Muramid Arts and Cultural Center (pg.9) Muramid Pyramid (pg.9) National Congress of American Indians (pg.10) Nespelem (pg.3) Orange Coast College (pg.6) Pablo Tac Elementary School (pg.14) “Painting Outside the Lines” (pg.6) Peace, Unity, Healing (pg.9) Sergeant Shriver (pg.4) Srebrenica (pg.5) “Stem to Steam” (pg.6) Submarine School (pg.2) Supercolor Photo (pg.9) Tuzla (pg.6) UNESCO Center for Peace (pg.14) United Nation Environment Program, Nairobi (pg.4) Vista Volunteer Program (pg.4) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview October 31, 2022. Description An account of the resource Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-052 Subject The topic of the resource Art Miles Project Bosnian Women's Initiative International Atomic Energy Agency Military base closures Mural painting and decoration Muramid Art and Cultural Center (Oceanside, Calif.) Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 Unesco United States. Army United States. Navy Women artists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-31 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joanne Tawfilis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joanne Tawfilis License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Activists and activism Art and artists Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/650df26fcebb5e908a3a6386a0e71713.pdf 91b6788af9d667a1f9d0118bd55f634c PDF Text Text TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Transcript Linda Kallas: Today is October 31, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Joanne Tawfilis as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you for joining me today, Joanne. Joanne Tawfilis: Thank you, Linda. Glad to be here. Kallas: It’s my pleasure. I’m going to give you some questions, and you’re going to answer them and to the best of your ability and we’ll just keep moving through the questions. Okay? Tawfilis: Okay, sounds good. Kallas: First of all, when and where were you born? Tawfilis: I was born in New London, Connecticut, and, um, a long time ago, [laughs] almost seventy-seven years. Kallas: And was your family an active part of any cultural communities where you grew up? Tawfilis: Actually, my family was one of the first Filipino American families in the town that I was born in. Um, we had a huge family, and then another family came and there was sort of a competition between the two families on, I think, who could have the most kids. Kallas: Oh! [chuckles] Tawfilis: And I think my dad won! [both Joanne and Linda laugh] Kallas: Um, so you didn’t grow up in North County. You moved here how many years ago? Tawfilis: Oh, it was—I moved here probably, um, in 1971, was when I first came to California. But then with my career I traveled all over the world, so I was back and forth on a regular basis. Uh, I had children and grandchildren here, and when I retired in the year 2000, I decided to settle here in paradise. [nods] Kallas: Nice. And how do you like living and working here since then? Tawfilis: Oh, I love San Diego County. Out of all the places I’ve ever been, I think that what I— I love the weather like everybody else, but it’s very multicultural, and, uh, makes life interesting that way. And grandchildren will always keep you where you are going to retire. Kallas: Um, do you feel like you’re part of the community? And do you have a support network? Tawfilis: I feel very much part of the community in many ways, but on―in some ways, no, because we’re—we’ve kind of discombobulated in this county where North County is kind of separated. But, I—my community is global, so it makes it a little bit interesting for me to try to be part of this community, despite the fact that I am, uh, running a multicultural center. Oceanside seems to be very focused on downtown and tourism, and, uh, I wanted to be here, even when I was downtown when we had our, um—it’s our studio and our center and our 1 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 museum, the first mural museum in the world in Artists’ Alley. I—I thought we were really integrated into the community, but when—when I had to move out and come down here, it’s been a little different because we’re—we’re—we’re not considered you know neighborly, I think, is my—my feeling. We—we—we’re here. I love being part of being imbedded into the community, especially the indigenous community, because the Center was supposed to be focused on multiculturalism, with the focus on indigenous people. Kallas: Um, so prior to doing what you do now at the Mural Museum and the Art Miles, you had another whole career. Can you talk a little bit about that? Tawfilis: Yeah. I started out doing illustration work with the U.S. government, and when computers came out, they scared the heck out of me, being a non-technical person and being kind of a—I think, at that time, a very snobby artist [laughs], and then when people tell you what they want painted on, or drawn with specific directions, I had to question “Why, then, do you need me, if you’re not going to use my creative brain.” And the computer-generated art didn’t appeal to me because of that. Although now it’s grown into such a great variety of software programs, you can do almost anything, even with your own art. But as a young artist, I didn’t see it that way. So I worked for the military for most of my career in civil service, and then later on, combined my civil service career with the United Nations, and got to travel, a lot! Kallas: Um, so, some of the work—you want to talk about some of the work you did for the military, Civil Service department? Tawfilis: Yeah. After doing illustration, um, at the Submarine School in Connecticut, where we—where I was born, and my ex-husband was military, we traveled and that’s how I came— came to California. Um, and I worked really hard doing graphics here. Um, I rose in my career there to, to when the Bicentennial happened in, uh, 1975–76, the Navy and the country’s Bicentennial, and I got a little bit famous because I coordinated the whole military celebration down at the Broadway Pier, and things like that. And, then when, uh, uh, I went as far as I could, as far as a illustrator, was go—was my part of my career, and they started to do more and more graphics. I mean I worked at every military base in San Diego that you could think of. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then an opportunity came to become, uh, the first civilian and woman to be a, an international military training coordinator, and that’s how I got really involved with the international work, because the job was to be like a cultural, um, leader for the military people that came and their families, and setting up Friendship programs, and ex—not exchange programs, because these were, these were guys that were being trained on the equipment in the ships that we sold as part of the―what they call an international military exchange training program, I met and several others. So, I worked through all the bases doing that, and really loved, um, starting programs for the military and introducing them to American culture. And that was my real first experience, and getting international people to know the native cultures. And I did a lot of—I spent a lot of time down in San Diego, and Chicano Park, and I used to have the military, even the officers, lay down in the, the big, uh, like a pagoda―I’ve forgotten what you 2 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 call it [chuckles], I think this is my senior moment―um, and look up to see the Inca and the Maya—Mayan civilization paintings, ‘cuz that’s where Chicano Park is sort of visualized and painted in amazing murals. And I did part of that on the bridge, the bridge stanchions that show how the Mexicans and the Spaniards came, and the farm workers came. And that was a lot of indigenous peoples from Mexico. And that got me interested. And then coming from Connecticut and New England where we had a lot of Native American tribes, a lot of international people ask about what happened to all the Indians in American culture? And a lot of—back then, a lot of international people only knew about cowboys and Indians, like most of us when we were growing up, you know, decades ago. And it also—it was very interesting to me because my minor in college was Native American Studies. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And that’s how I got introduced to it. But, you know, it was something that you think of academically, although it struck my heart because I was really angry at our educational system for not letting me know, among others, that where I grew up and lived most of my, you know, young adult life prior to college was Indian country. I mean, one of the thirteen colonies. And people don’t realize what kind of impact that had, has on people when you’re growing up. So, that affected my, my heart always. So, when I—in my career, I’ve always had that as a, I want to say, a big influence on what I’ve done to, to teach international people when I travel, both with the military and with the U.N. Kallas: Now, did the military send you to other countries as well? Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. I ended up—I started out doing, like I said, the international training stuff, but then I was on the base closure team, where my career went way up as far as getting higher promotions and better pay, and stuff like that. So I ended up, after doing base closures in most of the San Francisco Bay and Hawaii area, my territory was, I was one of twelve people that did the base closure studies. And then I had an opportunity—kind of as a fluke—to apply for an international job with the Army, and my supervisor and I both did it, um, as a—I don’t know, we just got a, a bug to say, “Oh, let’s see what happens if we apply to do what we’re doing here in the States, doing base closures.” And so, they offered her a job, and she turned it down. And they said “Oh well, the next person on the list is right in your office. Can we talk to her?” That was me! And so I ended up going to Germany. At the time I had been working for the Navy for over twenty years, in different positions like I said, from illustrator to management analyst, and working at foreign training and base closures. So then I ended up going to the Army in Germany, and that was, uh, right after, um, the Bicentennial had ended, and then I did a stint with—I took some time, and got, went on loan as a Vista volunteer, and went up to the Nespelem reservation in Colville, Kettle Falls area of Washington. I got really lucky cuz’ my hero was Chief Joseph [chuckles] and so I worked on that reservation in a parent aid program. But that’s another whole thing that maybe we could talk about later. Because going back to the military, I did this closing the bases in Europe and I became one of the heads of the base closure team there, and that’s how I got to travel to just about every European country there was. And, um, from there, I got recruited by the state department and through my federal military civilian job, went to work for the United Nations in, in Austria after the base closure job in Germany, that I went onward to, 3 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 um, working on loan again. I went on loan from the Navy to the Army, from the Army to the International Atomic Energy Agency, and on loan again to the United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi. I mean there were jobs in between, but, and like I say that the stint I did at— I got to continue my career, even though I stopped working for the military for two years to work on, um, the Vista volunteer program. When Shriv—Sergeant Shriver started the Peace Corps, he also started the Vista volunteer program, which is now, I think, Americorps. So I was in that first round. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And then I went back to civil service and continued on, and onward to U.N. Kallas: And did they send you to, um, war torn countries, and where there was a lot of political unrest— Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. Kallas: —as a representative? TAWFILIS: Yeah. When I went to, um—well, I could say my first stint overseas in Germany with the Army was when the wall came down. And I had just adopted two more children, and uh, I remember during that time the―when the wall came down, my kids were like, like—they were adopted from Mexico, and then—but they were Americans in a sense, so they were Mexican descent. And it was really interesting for them to learn German, so you see two little Mexicans speaking in German [chuckles]. It was kind of cool. And, um, but the war torn part of it was―my job was because the war was over, the Cold War, and the wall came down, the government decided that’s why they wanted to close the bases because they didn’t need that anymore. We had so much military might invested in Germany because that was the actual front, that it made my job easy because the, the common sense of the economic support that they did for Europe, um, on the, well, it was called the front, made sense to start closing the bases. And so, I became a superstar, doing that, because I had people skills, so the generals that I worked for decided that it was great to have a woman civilian go give the commanding officers of the base the good news and the bad news that their base was going to be closed. And as a result of that, I was one of four women chosen to be, um, a member or take part in a study to decide whether civilians should become executive officers of military bases. So, they sent us to Army Management Staff College, and I was one of the four women that attended that. And so, the idea would be that I would become an executive officer of a military base so they could station military in the field. The problem with that is there’s no military that’s going to listen to a civilian as a boss. So, you can ask my son-in-law about that, ‘cuz he was Army. In fact, my daughter met him there in Germany. But, yeah, that was one. And then with the U.N., when I went to Africa, there’s all kinds of―I want to say―conflicts going on, including Somalia, Rwanda, during all that time, and so, yeah, I saw a lot. In fact, I was car-napped and my own personal safety was in danger there, not only from being exposed to so many people that were dying of AIDS, but because of the tribal—there’s like forty tribes in Nairobi alone and there were conflicts and a lot of cultural differences between the tribal people and a lot of, um, little―I want to say―mini wars going on 4 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 and the political strife, and then of course, it was pretty bloody with Rwanda and then Somalia in that area. But I got to travel all over Africa, looking at—my job there was to consolidate the U.N. organizations in Nairobi and the base was called Gigiri, and, um, I got in trouble there, because I tried to support the local indigenous people with the financial area. So, if you want to talk about wars, and danger, and stuff like that, I think people think of shooting, you know, and bombs and stuff. But there’s other kind of wars, like economic ones. And I came up with this idea that civil service employees in international organizations should be cay—should be paid equally. But they have this system in the U.N. where local nationals are―have to go through a wage classification survey and they get the prevailing wage rate, whatever that country is. So, in other words, my secretary in Austria would get $3,000 a month, but my secretary in Nairobi would get $300 dollars a month. Kallas: Oh... Tawfilis: Yeah. And I just didn’t think that made sense, working with the U.N. So, it was kind of a battle there, and I think that was the biggest war for me, is trying to help the local nationals. And I did some―I want to say―out of the ordinary things, like promoting them when other people went out on mission they would hire people to come in and pay them exorbitant amounts of money, including me, because I, I was on a stipend on a daily basis, in addition to my very high salary. But the work was done by the local people. I think that happens everywhere, that the real worker bees don’t get recognized for the, all the work that they do, and they carry on the mission of whatever that country’s, you know, objectives are. And so, I think that’s one of the reasons I got car-napped, because I had a big mouth and I actually wrote a book about how to flatten the United Nations. So, they sent me back. I was on loan from the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria to Africa, and because I tried to help the local people, I think I wasn’t going to go much further, after ten years, you know, working for the U.N. So, that was my personal battle when you talk about wars, and dangerous things. I mean, when you get to the point where they don’t want you to talk―and it wasn’t the U.N. that did it―it was a person that probably wanted the job that I had―that arranged for this kidnapping or car-napping that I survived. So… Kallas: So, you also, um, had spent time in Bosnia during that— Tawfilis: Yeah, at the end of my career— Kallas: —that was after all the— Tawfilis: with—I was getting ready to retire and, uh, because I was on loan as a very highranked civilian, the only place they could put me would be the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and I didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. I’d been at the headquarters many times with my job with the Army. I did a lot of stuff for the Army, like I said. And I really didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. So, they gave me a choice of going to Bosnia and working with the widows at Srebrenica, at the end of the conflict in the Balkans between the―where Yugoslavia had broken up. And I went on an interview sponsored by the Clinton Foundation to be the Director of the Bosnian Women’s Initiative or what they—most people know as the Widows of Srebrenica, 5 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 where at some point they gathered the Bosnian women together―and I should say the Bosnian families together―in their village called Srebrenica which was a safe haven. And unfortunately it wasn’t a very well protected safe haven, and on July tenth and eleventh in 197―uh, 1995, the Serbs came in and gave the people ten minutes to come outside, and they put the women on one side of the street, women and children under fourteen and old people, real old people, and then they put the men and boys on the other side and then they took all the women, put them on buses and sent them to a village in the mountains, in Tuzla. And the men disappeared. They found some mass graves. They found some bodies in a forest where they were―tried to run away, I guess, some of the men. And, but they never found the whole―I would say, whole group of the over six to seven thousand. They, they suspect―there’s a lot of theories, and a lot of books written about it. But my job was to work with the women and help them do economic development and to heal and to also help identify bodies and get all their data because they had no pictures of their families. They had, you know, all this stuff that they—they left with nothing. And then to try to help reconciliation between the three entities, and I ended up, you know, working my, my heart and my head off, because working with people who have lost everything and witnessed the destruction of their country and their families getting killed and murdered and their men disappearing, and these were mostly farm women that didn’t even know how to write their name. So, I think I worked harder in my life those three or four years that I was there doing everything from gathering information to help put the war crimes together because these people were still on the loose. And then throughout the years, the military would find them and capture the war crime perpetrators and bring them to the Hague and they were imprisoned, and some of them—I won’t name names—passed away in prison before they could be tried. But it was terrible trying to identify remains with the women. Maybe it would be just shreds of a shirt but they recognized their husbands. And then having all that emotional—I think I have a whole book of stories I could write about their suffering. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: But because of that, I was encouraged to go work in the orphanage and there three hundred fifty orphans. I have a TED talk online, TED-X from Orange Coast College. And, it was―it’s called “Painting Outside the Lines.” I also have one from UCSD “Stem to Steam” because I put the art part in there. But back to the Bosnian situation and I guess as the point of my career that changed my life that we were going to talk about, because when I saw what the children had gone through and I―they―they told me—you were getting— I was getting very depressed, and they said “you need to go work in this orphanage.” So, the three hundred fifty orphans from all three entities, but they had not found or located all families. So, some of the kids had no survivors. I understand that most of them they were able to place them years later. But while I was there, my―my, uh, free time, if you want to call it free time, was to go and work with these kids to do art. And then after about three months of just sketching and coloring and stuff, they asked if they could make a very big painting and I interpreted that as a mural. And so if you―you’ll hear on the TED talk, how we found bed sheets in a closet that were full of sort of darned holes and the―they explained to me that the young ladies in Europe learn how to sew, which we did away with here in the United States. But there they sew everything. So, when they 6 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 pulled out the sheets, and they had all these little stitches, and some still had holes, I, when I asked them what the holes were about, they said “Well, this used to be a hospital, and it was bombed. So these were from the shells and the shrapnel that, that, you know, made holes in the walls and the bedding and the whole bit of the ugly hospital beds over there.” So, what I did was the Army had left a 10-gallon pan―pail of white flat, white wall paint and I, I had them sew two sheets together and I put masking tape on the back where I thought there were the least amount of holes and then I just painted. I put a whole bunch of newspaper, and in the morning it turned into a very stiff canvas! So, we had a canvas and the kids got very excited. Every time I think about their faces when they saw that, and then it was like “Oh, we’ve got to paint that whole thing?” You know… Kallas: So, that’s when your two careers intersected, so you kind of went back to—. Tawfilis: Right. Kallas: roots, and— TAWFILIS: And I got to do art, right? So, but what changed my life were the, the children and the oldest one was about eighteen and then they had a little eighteen or nineteen-month-old baby in there, and they divided the kids up into groups of five. And they took two older, mostly teens, and then three younger kids, so they could take care of each other, ‘cuz they only had five people running this whole orphanage. There was psychologist, and then the other four were caregivers, and they cooked for them, and made sure that they were, you know, trying to keep them busy. There were—I don’t even think they had formal education for them, because there was nothing. And they were just being protected and fed, and trying—and I think doing the art was a real important thing in their lives. So, how my life changed was, the kids started—I said “you have to decide what you want to paint.” So, what they—I had them do, is I said “Draw something that you want on this canvas.” So, they all did it, and I still have some of the sketches. I should have brought some. But they, they, they had to come up with an idea that would go on the canvas. So, we looked at all the drawings and they started forming this dialogue and they started talking to each other. And you have to understand these kids were very depressed themselves, and they had these real— Kallas: Traumatized. Tawfilis: Yeah. They were all traumatized and they were kind of afraid of each other when they were—they knew that one was a Serb, and one was a Croat, and one was Bosnian. And they didn’t―they matched them up by age, not so much by what sect of religion they belonged to. So, and in children weren’t so attuned, maybe the older ones were a little bit more conscious of their religious differences, whatever. But in the discussions that they were doing, they started talking about the trauma that they had gone through. And some of the kids knew each other from the different villages that they had come from. And I found myself going outside, crying myself, because they started talking about what they saw, what they felt. And even now, when I think about it, it’s still—it burns a hole in your heart, but it—I wondered how this was going to work. And I’d go back in, and then they decided on a theme. And what was happening is they were going through a catharsis themselves, and they ended up with coming up with the theme 7 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 “Yesterday and Tomorrow.” And the Yesterday section of this one―I guess we would call it a triptych in our art language, Yesterday, they did sketches of houses that had no roofs, ‘cuz they’d blown up. Airplanes dropping bombs, and then because the women were wearing kerchiefs because they were Bosnian Muslim, they had their heads covered. There, a lot of the little drawings had little pictures of women lined up, going, and they remembered having to come out of the houses in Srebrenica and line up on the other side of the street. So you saw―you would see sketches of that, and dragons, and just ugly things that they, fires, things burning. And then the middle section where they had put the groups of five together, they drew their little new families, which was really cute. Kallas: That’s awesome. TAWFILIS: And then on the third panel was, were flowers and clowns and balloons and stuff like that. So they called it “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.” So after five days of going through that, I can say that was a life changer for me, and, and I was telling my husband about it, and we, we made that first mural, and he was in the process of constructing a new building, me, a gallery, and we called it Avenida de Los Artistas. So, we had a Spanish name in a German country, speaking country in Austria. We started, he started doing murals, or I started it on the wall, one of the walls of the museum that was being built, at the gallery. So, when I’d go back home, we were making murals, and after about a hundred of them we said “we should make this a project.” Because the latch kids would be coming, then the schools started sending kids over. So we turned it into a project, and actually Foulad, my husband, was the man who came up with the idea of calling it “Art Mile.” We didn’t know it was going to turn into twelve miles! But that’s how it started. And then at one point I met a professor from Wesleyan University, and I did some murals. The very first mural we did outside of Bosnia was in Austria. And then on one of my trips back to Connecticut, I met this professor from Wesleyan, and we did one at the university there. And he said “You need to tell the U.N. about your project.” And, so, there are lots of things going on, wars, conflicts all over. And so the United Nations had set up a program called the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And it was founded by Ambassador Chaudry of the U.N. who was at the time Under Secretary General for small developing nations and island nations. And he had written the resolution to start this International Decade from 2001 to the end of 2010. And so my husband and I had this crazy idea of going to New York and getting him to support it as a U.N. project. And at the same time, the son, the grandson of Jacques Cousteau heard about us, and said “I’d love to see what you’re doing. Maybe you should do murals about the sea.” So he flew from London and met us at the famous hotel in New York, and I was, while I was there to meet Ambassador Chaudry and said he would love to see us do murals about the oceans and the sea and the water. And at that time he was at grad school, I believe. And so our very first celebrity fan was Phillipe Cousteau, the son of Phillipe Cousteau, who passed away in a plane crash. He was one of the two sons of Jacques Cousteau. So we went on to the U.N. and just unrolled five canvases, one of them was done in Nairobi, and it went all the way down the hallway, cuz they were five feet by twelve feet, so we had almost fifty feet of canvas going down the hallway and Ambassador Chaudry’s office took up a whole floor of People in the U.N. building and they all came and looked at it and they all fell in love with the project. And that’s when we got his support and endorsement, and we started doing murals. And 8 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 now we’ve got over twelve miles of murals from all over the world, which many of them are right here in this building. And our headquarters is in North County and Oceanside. Kallas: And that is called? Tawfilis: The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. We had it set up as the first mural museum in the world, and for people who don’t know the word “Muramid” comes from murals that were being constructed into a pyramid which we had set up a project. My husband came up with the design and he did the photography of over a thousand murals and did them in miniature because we were going to create the Muramid Pyramid at the great Pyramids in Giza. And at the time, we had also, I had retired. We had moved to Egypt. We have a home there. And my husband spent a lot of time and a lot of money. What we called Back Cheese, with the paying under the table to the Minister of Education, Minister of Culture, to do a fourth pyramid to be constructed with piping, I don’t know if they call it, it wasn’t the PPV―PVC piping, it was metal. And he designed that. And then a company here in Oceanside―not Oceanside,―in Irvine, “Supercolor Photo,” were kind enough to make the model and take my husband’s design of the miniature murals and make a cover. And we were able to have a ten-foot model that we were going, we used in several places. In fact, we have ten models all over the world right now, including Japan. And we participated in international conferences and things like that. And the whole idea was to have, to have [someone enters the room, off camera] I thought I locked the door, sorry. Anyway, the whole idea was at the end of 2010 we would have this celebration to commemorate the closing of the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And then, what happened was, because we had so many conflicts we ended up with a second decade, which ended at the end of 2021. Kallas: Now all of your—you have twelve themes for your Art Miles. Tawfilis: Mm-hmm. Kallas: Can you share a little bit about that, and what, what people gained from doing these murals? Tawfilis: Sure. The first thing that we did was Peace, Unity, and Healing. And then we ended up with the Women, because the women’s influence on art and healing. That’s where the healing part came in. And you know when you think about peace, unity, and healing, then you talk about women and their role in it. And then we started environment, because everybody started complaining, and worrying about climate change. And as you know, that has a subject that has increased so many, so much all over the world. And it’s happening. We’re all experiencing that. And then we started doing murals in response to every human and natural disaster. That’s even when 9/11 happened in 2001, it was a big deal and we did, like, many murals and actually exhibited some of them on, at Ground Zero. We were there, doing the mural, at Georgetown University on September 11. And we got sequestered into the hotel that we were staying at, because we were doing a Children’s Environmental Health Network thing. But anyway, back to the themes, so that’s how the environment started. We, the third one was Children’s Environmental Health Network where they actually did a film about us there. And while we were doing that, we ended up being, watching the Twin Towers come down. And then from there we 9 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 started Children’s and then Fairytale and then Sports and Music, and so now we have Hero and we had—then we started the Japanese government, or I should say our Japanese team started doing an exchange program. They called it, they call it the International Intercultural Mural Exchange where they do half of a mural in Japan and the other half in another country, with another school. So, there’s four hundred forty murals for each themed. They’re all, not all five by twelve, some of them are half sized. But our goal was to at least get to twelve miles, and then in 2008 we attempted to break the Guinness Book of World Records. But three weeks before that, we found out that the United Arab Emirates had already done that with the longest mural in the world. And we couldn’t surpass it, because they, they would, they did like ten-mile, not ten miles, ten murals more than us. But, even the, the grand master, whatever they call them, that comes to do the, to officiate measurements stuff, said ours weren’t connected, and they want a continuous theme. So, what the, what happened with the United Arab Emirates, they did, they did, I think at that time, like four miles, about women, and it was done for International Women’s Day and they featured the, all the children. And all the schools did murals about the sheikah, or the queen, I guess. And then they had to burn it, because it was done on paper, and Islam doesn’t allow images. So, but they did break the record. Plus, it cost ten thousand dollars to bring the guy over, and we didn’t have that kind of money. We still don’t have that kind of money, because we do it all from our hearts, very few donations. Kallas: And can you talk a little bit of how the initial concept of murals has evolved over the years, compared to where you started in Bosnia, and to where you are right now with the murals. Tawfilis: Yeah. I think the biggest change is education. We found that education has come to the forefront because whenever, whatever thing you’re working on, it teaches you something, you know, whether it’s fairy tales that are originally thought of by children and from their imaginations or sports. There are―you learn what the sport’s all about. Music, the same thing. We’ve even had music murals created while people are looking at a mural and they write music about it. And then, or vice versa. Or when it’s in the indigenous mile. At one time we presented a—because I was in Connecticut at the time, we had someone present the idea of doing—we discovered there were five hundred fifty recognized tribes. And so they did a resolution at the National Congress of American Indians, NCAI, that each tribe would contribute a mural. But we got so busy, and then my husband passed away. We have never followed up on that. I don’t know how long those resolutions last. But I would love to revive it. But since that time, I’ve also discovered there’s a whole bunch of non-recognized tribes. And I think that has appealed to me more, because I feel like, how could you not recognize a tribe? I don’t care. I know that there, their requirements have DNA and numbers of members and whether they have a reservation or whatever. But, it’s not accounting, some of the tribes don’t get credit for just being there, and being there first. And they were decimated by whatever colonial tribe or―how would I say―shouldn’t be―that’s the wrong word―colonial influence that came in and took over those lands, even in our own wars, in the Civil War. Even before that, they, you know, the genocide of Native Americans is something that most Americans don’t even know about. They don’t even know about there’s so many tribes in every country that they went through the same thing. You know, the genocide of every African nation. There’s thirty-three countries in Africa! And most Americans don’t know that. There―you could go there, and you could say “The Dutch took over 10 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 this country. The Italians did this country. The Brits did this.” You know. And they left their influence, but they also started slavery, and brought it here. And then―and I think that’s why there is a bond between a lot of Native Americans. When you―one thing I’ve even discovered more of later in my life is how Native Americans helped so many slaves, you know, following the Civil War. Protected them, and hid them, and intermarried, and that’s why there’s a lot of controversy among white people about―they had this concept the Indians were “red.” First of all, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a red person, or a yellow Chinese person, or maybe caramel, like me. [both she and Linda chuckle] And when you think of black, kids in school when you say “These are Africans.” They use black crayons or black paint. There are some very black people, I think. Some countries have all shades. India has black India people from East India. And Senegal people mostly are darker than most, you know. But there’s also a whole shades, hues of people. But like Aki, our drummer, says “Inside we all have red blood. We all have bones.” You know, and when we all die, you can’t tell, maybe by the―anthropologists will tell you about the skulls and the framework and stuff like that. But color? No. Religion, you know, that’s another thing. So, the other—to get back to your question. The other evolution has been healing. I think the focus now is more on healing, because we have so much―what’s the word―conflicts around the world. And then personal violence going on with school shootings and the massive massacres with massive killings all over and accidents and natural disasters, with hurricanes and floods. Right here in California, the fires, right here! They came right up to the back door here, you know. And if you drive up through the mountains going to, to go buy a pie, you’re going to find out. You drive through all the reservation areas and you see where the fires from the past―you see those still the black, some of the trees, and there’s a big contrast with the silhouettes of those trees and then the―now the overgrown greenery. It’s so beautiful, and you know, things like that. So, healing has made a big difference, because when people―and what I’m really, I think, what I’d like to share in this interview with you―is that healing isn’t just the murals that we send to the people who have been become victims and their families of those who were killed or injured in these horrible violent events or disasters. It’s us, ourselves. When each school shooting happens, how many parents and people with a heart feel that pain, of, of—I can’t—every time I hear of a school shooting, I think of those poor little kids, and I grieve for them and for their families and for the friends and the neighbors that were there. And my first exposure to that was actually the, the widows watching those children, and then 9/11 when the Red Cross had murals being done all over. We have some amazing murals that came from all over the country and the world, displaying their feelings. And one of them, one of the ones that stands out in my mind, is Hope, Alaska did one. And it, the whole mural is the word “Hope” but inside the word “Hope” they drew people, and a lot of native and indigenous people are in that. And then, when Sandy Hook happened from my, where I’m from, Connecticut, I went there, and to see those little children, you know. How can anybody go in and kill all those little tiny kindergarten kids, and the teachers? And then what people don’t know there’s, in America, there’s a place called Besan, near Russia, where the radicals, and the— Kallas: Government was involved in―. 11 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Tawfilis: Yeah, over two hundred people, two hundred kids and teachers killed. And then again, recently, you know, I mean we could go on and on. And every time we did a mural, it was like once or twice a year, and now, I mean, I think in July we had three shootings, and, you know, things we had to respond to. And actually, I’m behind! We haven’t been able to do, Massa from the, Mahsa Imani―Amini, from the―from Iran, because we’re so busy. We just finished Ukraine, you know. There’s just, St. Louis. All this stuff keeps happening. So, healing! Kallas: So, part of your process in dealing with this tragedy is there’s a healing element for you to respond to those through a mural. And you send those murals to those places, correct? Tawfilis: Yeah. And we’ve been lucky. Sometimes we hear back, and sometimes we don’t. Because you can’t expect everybody, every city and town, to say “Oh, gosh, all these people.” You know, people send food and clothing. And a lot of people do art and murals and flowers and, and stuff like that. So, I know, you know, part of giving, what people don’t understand is we give and we do murals from our heart. We don’t expect a lot in return. What I expect is when people paint a mural to send that they are sharing that same emotion that I feel that they want people to know that we’re thinking of them, and that we’re sending our prayers and good wishes. I know people think that a lot of non-governmental organizations do things for money. Well, we’re, we’re a great example of “No” [laughs], because― Kallas: Non-profit. Tawfilis: Yeah, we are a true non-profit. And my husband and I and a lot of people have contributed. We don’t have an overhead staff that we, we pay for. We can’t. We just don’t, you know. Thank goodness we have good―there’s so many―I focus on the good people and the good things that come. If I started thinking about what I have or what I don’t, you know, what I don’t have, with other organizations that get grants, and they have sponsors and philanthropists look at them, I would never be able to do what I do. At this age, I’m just now starting―we have a Foundation that we’re working on, and my goal is to finally, if I realize it, if I want to have a legacy in the name, in the memory of my husband who gave up his career, and out of my true care and I say, I want to say concern for people who are suffering, and indigenous people, I think that’s why I want it here. That’s what brought my here. I think the Creator, whoever your Creator is, my Creator is a number of spiritual things, that I saw this place that we’re sitting in right now before we opened the Muramid and Artists Alley. And my husband said “It’s too small. It looks like a house!” And it was full of crazy stuff that had been here before. So, it was neglected and smelly. It didn’t have high ceilings when we peeked in the windows, and he, he just kind of passed it on. But, something called out to me in this place. And I remember driving around one day after I knew I had to leave Artists Alley, because he passed away. I hadn’t, didn’t have the infrastructure and the help that I do now with Aki and his drumming and neighbors and friends and people that have helped put this thing together. I remember driving around and it still had a For Rent style on here―sign―and I parked the car and I called the guy and the property manager. And it was still in the same shape that it had been, I guess, six years before. So, this place had been empty for a while. I think maybe something might have happened in between, but I doubt it, because judging from when we did get inside, and there was a lot of feces, dead animals, all 12 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 kinds of stuff. But I can feel this place. When we took down the ceiling, because it was that―what do they call it―insulation hanging down, and I looked at the wood, and I realized “Wow, this place was here a long time ago.” I didn’t know the history of the place, but I’ve been told it was the original general store for the Mission. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then when I found out about the Mission and, you know, being a Catholic, in a former life, I thought “Wow, this is pretty cool!” Then I remember reading, like other things in Connecticut, that there were people here before the Mission came, and I got really passionate about “I’m going to put it right there.” And I want to dedicate the place to the Luiseño, because I found out that they are the people that this belongs to. And everybody that comes in the door, every single person, I can’t think of one that hasn’t come in the door for the first time and goes “Wow! This place, it has such great karma. It feels warm and friendly, and it’s inviting and it’s good to be in here and it’s so creative.” And I went [claps her hands together] “Yes! That’s what we’re all about.” And so, I think we are an important piece of the history of this place because I feel like an archive in here, of some sort. And the Mural Project has found its home, and I think that’s an important part of being the history up here in the North County, to have a project that’s global in scope that has been participated in by over a half a million people from over a hundred countries. To land in a place that is based on what everybody should know about indigenous communities. My hope is that―and I started out with my husband and I both said, you know, before we wanted to feature different cultures, because we felt that Americans weren’t quite educated enough to understand the diversity and the richness of cultures from other people, and other countries, including this country, you know. There’s so many―and I don’t want to use the term “white”―but there’s a lot of American, white people who don’t understand that they came here from other countries as well. And in their own country, if they look back in their roots, they’ll find out that they come in different shades as well. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And that the stolen land―you know, recently I watched a documentary about Alabama where the last slave ship came in and it was against the law to even bring slaves after 1860 or something like that. But it was one ship’s captain who said “I can show you how to do it, and I’m going to prove it.” And he did it out of rebellion and brought a hundred and twenty slaves from Africa, made them get off the ship, near Mobile, Alabama, and in the water, the swamp, they got on to the land. I understand they stayed there for a few weeks and then they divided them into three different plantations. But they burned that ship in that. They said they wanted to get rid of the evidence. Well, that was a genocide in and off itself, of history. And now after four hundred years or whatever, they’re finding all these remnants. You can go anywhere, even here. When we started doing the back, we found a cross in the yard that, that must have been buried in the ground from whatever was here before. And I always wondered what happened and what’s going on with all this gentrification and the new building over there. It hurts my heart. And I talked to a Luiseño member who is one of our drummers, a woman, she said “every time she goes by” and she’s a school bus driver, she said “it hurts my heart.” Because she knows there’s another thing 13 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 covering it up and erasing part of the history of this place. And I’m really sorry that, you know, recently the newspaper said “the wave just got approved with the valley over there, and the rest of the valley. And I live in a place that I look at that, and I, I could cry just thinking about it. Right across the street from Pablo Tac Elementary School. They’re going to build a wave park like we need one so close to the ocean? I mean, come on. Commercialization is just really destroying the natural history of many places including right here where we live. So, I’m hoping that the owner of the properties here will never let this place become that wave even though I can see a beautiful little old town here. You know, I like to see more cultural things happen here. And I’d love to see the cultural district expand from downtown to where the real history is here. I mean, uh, it’s to me almost sinful that we don’t put more emphasis on what the history of this area, of Oceanside, is all about. It’s all on the front, at the waterfront. It’s all commercial. They even destroyed the waterfront in my eyes, by putting all that, the hotels and stuff. Kallas: Well, in trying to put it all together here, in breadth and in depth is community building. Tawfilis: Correct. Kallas: Through the murals, through the other work you’ve done. It seems to be the main theme of your life, and now you have the Center. And doesn’t it also have something to do with UNESCO? Tawfilis: Yes! We recently became the UNESCO Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. And with that I think will help enhance my opportunity and all the people that work with us to bring more cultural education and healing to this area, and to educate people about what real peace begins with me, and our neighbors and our families. And then, you know, I know this all sounds very philosophical but it’s true, you know. And, um, I think we have a pretty good mayor who supports local people more than others that I’ve seen. Maybe it’s because I see her out there in the community more than I’ve seen other mayors do. And I know that she is of Mexican descent, but I also believe that Mexicans have a lot of indigenous people here as well. Kallas: Right. Tawfilis: And when I talk about Mexicans, I don’t mean that they are the invaders of the people that took over. They too have been, you know, victims of genocide. All this belonging to part of that. But the first people here from all the history that I have been able to do my own research on, were the Luiseños. And so, my passion and dedication is going to be based on that. I am going to be looking at other cultures and introducing the people of the world to our local community through this center. But this is―This year, the Valley Arts Festival will feature my dedication to that. As I have this painting behind me. It’s kind of weird that we have this Mexican lady, native, behind me, and then my dancer, and then I am going to do a dedicated mural to the Spirit of the Valley, and to the tribal captain and a woman who happens to be his sister who I think is, in my eyes, the official historian of just about everything that could ever happen to the Luiseños here. And I feel very fortunate, um, coming from where I do, and what I did in Connecticut with the Mashantucket Pequots to see them grow and have the best museum in my eyes, in the whole world, indigenous or otherwise because it’s interactive. To be with people that are still alive that I can talk to and interact with that live right here in this community. So… 14 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Kallas: So, going forward, what, um, what other projects are on the horizon for you. Tawfilis: Well― Kallas: Besides what you just talked about, are there other avenues that you’re going to pursue? Tawfilis: Oh, thank you for asking. Because one way of documenting history is books. So, I’m writing, actually there’ll be four books that I hope will be coming from me. But interacting with other people, we’re doing, taking the murals now, what am I going to do with twelve miles of murals? My goal is to convince the Smithsonian that they need to take these, because to me it’s a visual documentation of two decades or more of history by the people and for the people. This is their words, not some author who wrote a book about the history of something. It’s from all over the world, and it addresses social issues everywhere. So, what I’m hoping to do is we have a Foundation that we’re going to be―we are part of, called the Endangered Planet Foundation, and our project will, will be embracing that and taking the mural images and trying to create practical products from the mural images and raising money through the sales of textiles and books and things like that, tangible things that can go into a fund that will keep this project going, and long after I’m gone. Hopefully until then I can help form a solid board and we can end up hiring a staff which we’ve never had, to carry on this project, because I think it’s something that can continue. Mural art has been growing all over the world. The cave men have come a long way from their images to creating murals not just on walls but on canvas and ours is mobile. I wanted to have a voice for people that could be shared, not stuck on a wall that you’re never going to― I’m maybe some people will never get to Machu Pichu or to the Egyptian temples and pyramids or caves where we have here in the United States with etchings and things on them. So, this way we can bring people closer together. So that’s the future, is I want to leave a legacy and because I know what works. What other non-profit organization can survive for almost twenty-five years with no money? I’ll tell you why. Because people believe in it, and we believe in it with all our hearts and souls. And, as nearing my seventy-seventh birthday, I bypassed seventy-five because of Covid. I think we have proof in the pudding, so, yeah, that’s the plan, is to continue. Kallas: And speaking from personal experience, I’ve actually experienced the healing process and that sense of community where we’re all working on the same thing at the same time. There’s just so much unity in that and it’s very, you could really internalize that. Tawfilis: Well you know the big―bottom line is mural art gives you a chance to express yourself even with a group, because as you know doing quilt, we do that kind of style with murals as well, in different forms or whatever. You get to express yourself individually but you do it with a group and it brings you all closer together, and in doing so you talk to each other, and the bottom line is you find out how much more we have in common than we have in differences. Which sounds like a cliché, but boy it’s true. Kallas: It’s very true. Tawfilis: We actually do it. And we make ourselves, I mean, better people because we get to know and appreciate other people’s opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. We hear what they’re thinking and feeling, and we learn a lot from each other. And I think that’s how peace is 15 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 going to happen, when we begin to open our minds and our hearts to understanding that we’re different but we all have the same basic common needs. We all want to eat. We all want to be able to have a home over our heads and feel safe. And the richness of having other cultures influencing your life―it’s like if you’re only going to eat American hot dogs and hamburgers, what a boring life that would be, right? [Linda laughs] I always think of it simplistically like that because you end up going “Gee, I like Thai food. I like Chinese food. I like Italian food. Whatever.” Well, that comes from people, you know. And so, the blend and the magic of seeing the dancing from, and the music, the different forms of music, and you can be native American and play rock-n-roll music. I happen to know somebody who can do that and do it well. Or a Filipino that can sing beautiful, musical songs. Or the homeless people with the choir that was started right here from North County. I mean I think that’s a great, you know, cultural contribution to history. So. Kallas: Well, Joanne, thank you so much. It’s been an honor and a privilege to do this interview with you. And I want to repeat something I recently told a mutual friend about you, that I truly think you are a work of art. Tawfilis: Oh, my goodness. Kallas: And I just thank you so much. Tawfilis: Well, thank you. And I also want to say that I did get a PhD at the age of 71. So, my message to all those who think that you never learned and you can’t earn a degree as you get older, you’re wrong. You can get it, and mine was honorary, and I’m really proud of it now because I used to think―I’m very humble about it because I do understand how much hard work goes in to doing a dissertation. I almost got there. I could have done that, but I traveled so much I couldn’t finish. But understanding that when you do a life’s work dedicated to something, I think it’s deserved. I’m saying that today for the first time, that looking back on my career, I did earn it. Kallas: Yes, you did. Tawfilis: And I’m very happy that my, if my dad were alive and I received a big award when I retired. I got the highest award you could get as a civilian and they gave me miniature medal. It’s from the military. As well as a big one. And when I went to Arlington I put that miniature beneath my dad’s cross at Arlington National Cemetery. And I, when I got my PhD, my first trip to Washington, D.C., afterwards I went directly there, and I told my dad “Guess what, dad? You wanted me to get an education, and I got a Ph.D.” Kallas: Wow, what a great note to close on. Thank you again. I really appreciate this. Tawfilis: Thank you. [Looking off camera to someone else] Did I put you to sleep? Unknown male voice: No, that’s a wrap. 16 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 GLOSSARY: Aki (pg.11,12) Ambassador Chaudry (pg.8) Americorps (pg.4) Arlington National Cemetery (pg.16) Army Management Staff College (pg.4) Artist’s Alley (pg.2) Art Miles (pg.2,8) Back Cheese (pg.9) Base closure team (pg.3) Besan (near Russia) (pg.11) Bosnian Women’s Initiative (pg.5) Broadway Pier (pg.2) Chicano Park (pg.3) Chief Joseph (pg.3) Children’s Environmental Health Network (pg.9) Colville (pg.3) Endangered Planet Foundation (pg.15) Foulad (pg.8) Friendship Program (pg.2) Gigiri (pg.5) International Atomic Energy Agency (pg.4,5) International Decade for the Culture of Peace (pg.8,9) International Intercultural Mural Exchange (pg.10) Kettle Falls (pg.3) Luiseño (pg.13,14) Mahsa Amini (pg.12) Mashantucket Pequots (pg.14) 17 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Mural Museum (pg.2) Muramid Arts and Cultural Center (pg.9) Muramid Pyramid (pg.9) National Congress of American Indians (pg.10) Nespelem (pg.3) Orange Coast College (pg.6) Pablo Tac Elementary School (pg.14) “Painting Outside the Lines” (pg.6) Peace, Unity, Healing (pg.9) Sergeant Shriver (pg.4) Srebrenica (pg.5) “Stem to Steam” (pg.6) Submarine School (pg.2) Supercolor Photo (pg.9) Tuzla (pg.6) UNESCO Center for Peace (pg.14) United Nation Environment Program, Nairobi (pg.4) Vista Volunteer Program (pg.4) 18 Transcribed by Melissa Martin � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview transcript, October 31, 2022. Description An account of the resource Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joanne Tawfilis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-31 Subject The topic of the resource Art Miles Project Bosnian Women's Initiative International Atomic Energy Agency Military base closures Mural painting and decoration Muramid Art and Cultural Center (Oceanside, Calif.) Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 Unesco United States. Army United States. Navy Women artists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joanne Tawfilis License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_transcription Activists and activism Art and artists Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/bfc2d82b5e9047e6b1800bd05678e389.pdf bd0290ddc910011850030dbfa284a3ab Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview transcript, August 20, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part one interview, Rafael discusses his early musical influences, his participation in the 1960s counterculture movement, and the beginnings of his success in the music industry. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-08-20 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20_transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Chicago (Ill.) Covina (Calif.) West Covina (Calif.) Portland (Oregon) Seattle (Wash.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States Folk music Counterculture -- United States Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967 Art and artists Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joel Rafael OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Folk music;songwriter;counterculture;Woody Guthrie OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Rafael, Joel. Interview August 20th, 2025. SC027-086 02:06:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Folk music ; songwriter ; counterculture ; Woody Guthrie Joel Rafael Jennifer Fabbi moving image RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1f874004b7ad7b916e612b2588ed3fb1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction 0 56 Early childhood and musical beginnings Rafael talks about how he become involved with playing music through public school music programs. He started as a drummer and began playing in a cover band at an early age. music education ; drummer ; Everly Brothers ; The Beatles 0 397 Adolescence and folk music influence Rafael discusses how folk music began to become popular in 1960 and how it began to influence his musical tastes. He acquires his first guitar, learns to play and performs in hootanannies. Kingston Trio ; guitar ; solo artist ; Hawaii ; Joan Baez ; Bob Dylan ; hootananny ; Woodie Guthrie 0 1421 Influence of political assassinations and discrimination on development of political leanings Rafael reflects on turbulent times during high school including several political assassinations and how they affected him. His Jewish family experienced discrimination through redlining. political assassination ; Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Malcom X ; John Fitzgerald Kennedy ; Robert F. Kennedy ; Covina ; West Covina ; Jewish ; redlining ; John Birch Society 0 2236 The Vietnam War The Vietnam War begins, and Rafael discusses having to register for the draft. He attended college for one year and re-connects with his future wife, Lauren, at this time. draft ; anti-war ; college ; California State University Fullerton ; conscientious objector 0 3098 Move to Oregon Rafael talks about moving to Oregon, joining the counterculture movement, and getting arrested for drugs after an undercover operation. counterculture movement ; Oregon ; drugs ; arrest 0 4886 Move to Escondido and birth of first child After the loss of Rafael's father, he and he wife move to Escondido to help tend his family's avocado orchard. Soon after, their first child, Jamaica, was born. Escondido ; avocado orchard ; first child ; Jamaica ; natural childbirth ; grove service 0 5483 Making headway with music career Rafael discusses the development of his music career in Los Angeles. The Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase is a key highlight of this development. During this time he forms a duo with Rosie Flores. Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase ; Colin Young Band ; Goldmine ; Rosie Flores 0 6807 Opening act for Rick Danko and subsequent connections and successes Having moved back to North San Diego County, Joel recounts his big break in opening for Rick Danko and the subsequent pattern of becoming an opening act for many successful bands. Rick Danko ; promoter 0 7180 Becoming knowledgeable about Woody Guthrie Rafael begins to research Woody Guthrie and the people he had influenced. He learned a number of Woody Guthrie songs. Woody Guthrie ; Bob Dylan ; Harold Leventhal 0 Oral history Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part one interview, Rafael discusses his early musical influences, his participation in the 1960s counterculture movement, and the beginnings of his success in the music industry. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:27.000 Hello, this is Jen Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Joel Rafael for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is August 20th, 2025. This interview is taking place at Joel Rafael's studio at his home in Escondido, California, which is on the unceded territory of Luiseño/Payómkawichum people. Joel, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.094 You're welcome. 00:00:29.094 --> 00:00:33.725 Alright, so let's start off with the early years. When and where were you born? 00:00:33.725 --> 00:00:39.234 I was born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1949, May 11th. 00:00:39.234 --> 00:00:56.274 Okay. So you've been writing and performing for over fifty years beginning in the sixth grade. So how did it come to be that you were performing at such a young age, and how did you learn to play music and-- 00:00:56.274 --> 00:06:26.115 Well, I grew up in California 'cause my parents moved us out here to the Los Angeles County area in, when I was about three years old. So I guess probably 1952. And the California school districts had a really great music programs in those days. And so I was fortunate for the whole time that I was in school up through high school there was an excellent music program in every school that I was in. So it was probably about the fourth grade a music director came around to our classroom and basically, you know, Who wants to be in the band? And handed out, I guess some kind of a permission slip. And I jumped on that right away. I already was a music lover just from playing phonograph records at home. I think I mentioned this to you before, but I was a latchkey kid before the term was invented. So, in my early elementary school days when I would get home from school, I literally had a key on a shoe string to open my door because my parents were both at work. And I would fill my time with--a lot of my time with--going through my parents' records and just exploring the music they had. So that's how my love for music first started. And then, and of course, I had a little phonograph myself with a lot of children's records and children's music and that kind of thing. But I started playing music in the fourth grade, beginning band. I started out as a drummer. I had already taken some accordion lessons because my brother, who's two years older than me was taking accordion lessons. And that was kind of the mode, you know, everything my brother did then my parents would have me do that later. And so he was playing accordion so then I was playing accordion. But I started out on this small little twelve bass accordion and progressed pretty quickly. But unfortunately, I was pretty small in stature. And so when it was time for me to move on to the bigger accordion, it was really just, it was too much to handle. So that was the end of my accordion lessons. And then it was shortly after that, that this band thing happened at school, and I decided I would play the drums, which in beginning band meant the snare drum. So that was kind of how I started out, just playing the beats on the snare drum. And at a certain point, I really wanted a drum kit. And at some point, I guess it was probably around the fifth or sixth grade--probably around the fifth grade--I was able to coerce my dad into going to a music store. I think it was in Pomona, California. And we bought a used, really put together drum set and moved that into my bedroom. And then I started to bring some of my school friends over on the weekends. My mom would take me over, we would pick up a couple of friends and bring 'em to my house. And one of 'em played the trumpet and one of 'em played the clarinet, also beginning band members. And we worked out some very simple tunes. That was kind of my first combo. And by the time I got into junior high school, a better drum kit was required. And somehow I managed to get my dad to buy that for me. And I guess my second band was a surf band in a friend's garage in the town I lived in. I would ride my bike over there. My drums were parked in the garage at his house. Robbie Brandon was his name. And he had a friend named Lynn Lewis. And they--one of them played--Robbie played guitar, electric guitar, and Lynn played bass. So it was a three-piece band. And we basically played surf band covers--a few Everly Brothers songs that required singing, and neither of them sang. So we bought a boom microphone, and I was a singing drummer. As a drummer going into high school, I started playing a, well, I guess you'd call it a cover band. We were playing the, basically the songs that were on the radio at that time. And that was about the time that The Beatles became prevalent in the years of the U.S. And we were playing some Beatles songs and Rolling Stones songs and stuff like that. School dances, sock hops. Back in those days, they didn't have DJs. We always had live bands. And so I was one of those lucky kids that was in one of those bands. And that was a great experience as a kid. It was--really felt unique to be in a musical group. So let's see, should I continue on the musical path? Am I jumping the gun here? 00:06:26.115 --> 00:06:31.110 Well, no, I think we're gonna' get into it more. 00:06:31.110 --> 00:06:33.435 Okay. I was just kind of tracing my musical-- 00:06:33.435 --> 00:06:35.245 Yeah, absolutely. 00:06:35.245 --> 00:16:42.325 --progress. From there, folk music became, started to become popular probably around 1959, 1960. And, they call it the Folk Scare of the Sixties. And I think that's because no one ever thought that folk music would be played on the radio, and some of the stuff that was played on the radio was the more commercial kind of folk stuff, like the Kingston Trio. And John Denver, I guess, was probably around that time. Chad Mitchell Trio. I think John Denver was in the Chad Mitchell Trio before he was a solo artist. So those were the songs I was listening to. I remember Joan Baez had a hit with a Phil Ochs song called, There but for Fortune, that really intrigued me. And I just felt the necessity to, at that point, to kind of step away from the drum kit and learn how to play the guitar so that I could be up front singing the songs. And so I talked my parents into going to, down to Tijuana during the summer, probably the summer of '61, maybe. And we bought a very inexpensive guitar in Tijuana. I think it was about 30, 35 dollars. And that's what I learned to play the guitar on. I had a couple of friends that were--they had, there were about four of 'em, school friends, that had put together a little group, and they were doing mostly Kingston Trio songs. And I went up to play with them when they had their rehearsals, a couple of times. Just enough to learn a few chords and a couple songs. And then I was on my own. I was a solo artist from then on. I'm not sure why, but I just decided I was gonna' do my own thing. And so I started learning songs and getting better on the guitar. Around 1960--probably the summer of 1963--might have been--it was either '63 or '64. Might have been '64. Anyways, one of those two years. My dad decided to take my family on a family vacation for the summer to Hawaii. Hawaii had just become a state like a few years earlier. And he was curious about it, and we were curious about it. So we took a trip there, and we went to a few different islands, I think three different islands. And the third island we went to was, was the island of Kauai, which was very undeveloped at the time. And so we landed in Kauai, and we stayed at a place called the Hanalei Plantation, which is still there. It's a resort hotel that was originally a sugar plantation. And at the time, I think it was the only like sort of resort or hotel to stay at on the island of Kauai. It was just, there just wasn't much there. So we checked into our rooms, and right after we got into our rooms, my parents got a phone call from a guy who had just checked in and had noticed that my parents were from the same town, Covina, California. And he invited my parents and me and my brother to come down to the little restaurant bar area at the hotel and have a drink. So we went down there to meet this guy. And this is kind of an anecdotal story, but I think it's an important one. So when we met him, he was very much like a John Wayne kind of character, big cowboy kind of dude. He'd already had a few drinks, so he was obviously a drinker. He started telling us his story. And he had told us that he was one of the original models for the Marlboro Man posters with the cowboy and the horse that you'd see along the highways at that time. And he was a stunt man, had been in the Marine Corps. He told us that he had--that they had filmed Mister Roberts there at Kauai. And they had done a lot of filming at Hanalei. And that was one of the reasons he came back there 'cause he was familiar with it. But when they did that movie, he was the guy that drove the motorcycle off the pier in the scene where the sailors get liberty and they get off the ship. And then they're celebrating, this one guy drives a motorcycle off the pier into the ocean. And it was this guy, Jack Lewis. And he told us that he was there, that he was partners with a guy in Covina that owned a magazine called Gun World, which, you know, back in the early sixties, it was a just a, an NRA type magazine, but not the NRA as the NRA is today. It was more about hunting and gun safety and the newest rifles and firearms that were on the market or whatever. And so he said, yeah, he was there to take a helicopter flight the next day into some uncharted areas of Kauai to take some photographs of this rifle that he had. And it was like a .38 caliber rifle with a telescopic sight on--like big hunting gun. And he looked at my brother and said, Do you wanna' go with me, kid? And my brother said, No. And so he looked at me and said, Do you wanna' go with me, kid? And I said, Yeah. And my dad said, no, no, no, no, he can't go. He's too young. You know, I think I was fifteen and--just had turned fifteen. And this guy goes, oh, please sir, let your son go. This will be the adventure of a lifetime. I'm not gonna' be flying the helicopter. I've chartered a pilot and a photographer, and there's four seats, so there's an extra seat in the helicopter, and you should really let your son go. This will be like a once in a lifetime experience. And my dad relented and said, okay. So next morning we go down, and there was a place where a helicopter could land at Hanalei. We walked down there and met him, and then the helicopter came in and landed, and we got in the helicopter, and we flew out over these just amazingly scenic places on the island of Kauai. And landed about three different times where this guy Jack got out and walked a hundred yards away from the helicopter and fired a couple shots and walked back towards the helicopter with the gun. And we did that about three or four times. And I think due to his alcoholic nature, he was pretty exhausted by the time we got back in the helicopter to fly back to the resort. And on the way back, he said you know, he complimented me. He said, boy, we really worked our, you know, off today. Um, you know, kid, thank you. You really helped me out. You know, he's just giving me all this hot air. And so on the way back, he says to me, How do you like this gun kid? And I, you know, I'm fifteen years old, you know, 19-early sixties, and I said, oh, you know, I love the gun. It's awesome. I don't even know what I said, but that was my, what I implied to him is that I really thought it was great. So he says, It's yours. So, you know, I'm fifteen, right? So we get off the plane and I'm carrying this rifle in a leather case, walking toward my dad, who really did not like guns at all. He was a World War II Veteran. He had been in the invasion of North Africa, and he'd seen plenty of violence that he never talked about it, but it was obvious from the way he felt about guns, even at that time in my life. And so he goes, what are you doing with that? And I go, Jack gave it to me, You know, I'm all excited. And he goes, no, no, no, no, no, you don't. Well, this guy, Jack, you know, right away started again on my dad. Oh, sir, you gotta' let him keep it. He told me that you, you have a guy that works for you that goes hunting sometimes, you know, let him keep, let him keep the rifle. He was so great today. He helped me out so much. Just all this BS. And my dad relented. This was like '64. And so after we finished our trip, we flew back to Maui, I think it was, and then back to Oahu with the gun. Checked the gun and the ammunition, flew home with it, you know, it was a different time. Security was not what it is today. Flew home with a gun. The gun went in the closet, the ammo got locked away somewhere. And a month or so later, school started. And I was talking to a friend at school who lived with his dad, single parent, and they went hunting quite a bit. I told him about this gun. He really wanted to see it. And so I brought him home one day after school, and we got it out of the closet, and he looked at it. A couple days later, he called my house and said that he would really like to buy the gun from me. And he offered me $125 for the gun. So I had my eye on this guitar, down with a Covina music store. It was a G-10 Goya Swedish-made classical guitar that was real nice little guitar. And so he paid me the $125. And I went down to that store, and I bought that guitar. And I've never owned a gun since then. So I like to say my gun--my guitar is my gun, and my songs are my bullets. 00:16:42.325 --> 00:16:48.436 Mm. That's profound. So-- 00:16:48.436 --> 00:16:53.529 --that was my start playing guitar. 00:16:53.529 --> 00:17:07.025 Yeah. So can you tell me about the people or music--and you mentioned this a little bit--that influenced you at this young age, and as you moved into performing? 00:17:07.025 --> 00:21:23.755 Pretty much anything that I ran across that was like considered folk music at that time. The schools, it was all of a sudden folk music was sort of happening. It was the sixties folk movement. And the high schools were having what they called hootenannies, sort of like what you called open stages today. But they called it hootenannies, which was a term that was coined by Pete Seeger, when people would get together and share songs. And so we'd have these hootenannies, and they would be like talent contests at the various high schools. There were three high schools in our area. And so I started entering those contests after I'd learned a few songs. And wasn't really writing much at that time. I was just mostly just playing songs. So I was playing songs that were by Joan Baez, the Kingston Trio. There was a guy named Tim Morgan that was a local artist that had influenced me and another guy that I saw in Glendale. There was a lot of small clubs around at that time. Like, there was a club in Balboa Peninsula in Newport Beach area called The Prison of Socrates. And it's still there, but it's like a pizza parlor now. But it was a coffee house that had folk music, like three, four nights a week there. And there was another one in Seal Beach called the Cosmos. And, of course, there was the Troubadour in Los Angeles and the Ice House in Pasadena. There was a second Ice House in Glendale. So they all had open stages. So after I kind of perfected my beginning act with a guitar, I was hitting those open stages and the hootenanny contest at the high school, and I did really well. I was, I would win the first or second place at the hootenannies. And I was able to get on those open stages. And that's kind of where I cut my teeth as a performer, as a young person. So my influences were basically just the songs I was playing, like Richie Havens was an influence. I had a record of his that had a couple of folks songs on it. One was called, Hey, Nelly. Nelly, that I liked to sing. I think that was written by Shel Silverstein. I started to pay attention to writers a little bit. I knew that the song that Joan was doing, Joan Baez was doing, There but for Fortune, was a Phil Ochs song. I heard about Bob Dylan, but I didn't know too much about him. My next door neighbor, who was a couple years older than me, had a Bob Dylan album that she had bought, and she didn't really care for it that much, so she gave it to me 'cause I was curious, And it was, I think it was Bob Dylan's probably his third album. You know, it took me like three albums to actually hear Bob Dylan. It was Another Side of Bob Dylan was the album. And at the first listening, it just like, really took me back. Whoa, that's just so different. You know? It was just I won't say it was repelling or bad, like some people have said. It was just different, you know, it was just so different the way he was using his voice and the barrage of words in the songs. So I picked a couple of songs off of that record that I learned how to play. So he was an influence. Woody Guthrie was an influence, but I didn't really realize it because Woody died the year I graduated from high school, and he was hospitalized for, I think for maybe close to fourteen years before he died. He was institutionalized with Huntington's Disease. And so his songs were around, you know, This Land Is Your Land and This Train (is Bound for Glory), and John Henry, and a few others that were kind of in the popular repertoire that these other groups were doing. So I was hearing groups do some Woody Guthrie songs. So they were, in that sense, some of the first songs I learned how to play, ironically. So that was kind of my high school experience, you know? And so I guess we could pick it up from there. I'm not-- 00:21:23.755 --> 00:21:26.924 Yeah. When did you start writing music? 00:21:26.924 --> 00:21:29.394 I actually wrote probably my first couple of songs-- 00:21:29.394 --> 00:21:32.781 Well, and I guess, how did you learn, that's-- 00:21:32.781 --> 00:29:30.000 Yeah. Well, I don't know. I just, it was just something that I felt I could do. I was listening to songs and deciding which songs I liked. You know, there were songs that stood out and caught me up that I wanted to learn. Some of 'em were too complex for me to learn. I wasn't, skilled enough to just to discern that they were a simple song. But they, by virtue of being in a different key, it was like I could only play in a couple of keys. I had a capo, but I didn't really understand key transitions. I didn't understand that if you put a capo on the second fret of your guitar and play a G, it's actually an A, you know? So you got the whole circle of keys working up the neck of the guitar. And I understood that if I needed the song to be higher, I would move the capo up. If I needed it to be lower, I would move it down or take it off the guitar. But I didn't really know what key I was playing in or understand the relationships between the chord, the chords that were in a certain key. That all kind of came later just from experience, I think. And you meet people along the way. Like I've always--David Amram is the one that said this best. And I've always tried to emulate what he said. He said, I always hang around--try to hang around with people that are smarter than me and more skilled than me because that's how you learn to get better. You know, you don't want to be hanging around with people that--you don't wanna always be the best person there because then you don't ever learn anything. So I try to surround myself with people that know more than I know and are better players than I am, better songwriters than I am, because that's how you improve and develop. And I think that's good advice for anything that, any endeavor. So, let's see, where was I? So in high school, that was a very turbulent time for me. I don't know if that's our next category or not, but as I moved into high school, there was a lot going on. My freshman year in high school, John Kennedy was assassinated, A few years later, Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were assassinated, and Malcolm X was assassinated. So this all happened in my youth. And, but these things, these killings of political figures, it was something that was, in my consciousness, was a historical thing. Like Lincoln had been assassinated, and that seemed like to me, as a teenager, seemed like a really long time ago. So, I guess I should mention. So, when I went into high school, I experienced every new school in my area. Okay. So, like in elementary school, I started off in a school called Barranca School. I went there for a year. And then they transferred me over to a new school in West Covina called the Vine School. After two years or three years at the Vine School, they split the districts into West Covina and Covina districts. And I was in the Covina District. So then I went to the new elementary school in the sixth grade, which was a brand new school. So like, no trees, no landscaping, just concrete and pavement and dirt. And so then when I went to junior high school, I went to the established junior high school for one year, my seventh grade year. But in eighth grade, they had built a new junior high school, and they fed that with the two established junior high schools from--depending on where you lived, were fed into that third junior high school. So that was my third new school--no trees, no landscaping, dirt, concrete and pavement. And that was the Sierra Vista Junior High School. And then I went back over to Covina High School, which was the established high school for my freshman year, but they had incorporated--that year they took away one of the junior highs, which was the first junior I'd gone to in seventh grade. That became the campus for most of the freshman classes. But there were some classes, depending on what your curriculum was that you would cross the street over to the high school, to Covina High School. So I was on my way, probably about ten in the morning--I don't, maybe it was eleven in the morning on my way from the junior high school campus--the freshman campus--to the high school campus to go to my French class, first year French. And somebody ran by me and said, President Kennedy's been shot. And I was just like, What? You know, I just made my way to my class and my teacher was crying, and everybody, we found out about it, and it was just like, it was so devastating. It's hard to explain how devastating that was. Because these kind of events we take for granted now. They happen so frequently. We hear about people being killed, or mass shootings, or we hear about even political leaders being killed, heads of corporations being targeted. And it's just like the news of the day. But like when I was, I guess I was thirteen, to have somebody run by and say, the President's been shot. That was shocking, you know? And, and I remember they ended school day that day--within about an hour they ended the school day. And by the time I got home, he was pronounced dead. And I just remember that the silence. There was this silence everywhere. We went up to get something to eat at a restaurant, and there were some other people there, but it was just completely silent and somber. So that was a very emotional experience, and I think it, in some ways, it set a tone for the rest of my experience as a kid. A lot of questions. So then, after my freshman year in high school, there was a new high school near my house. So I went to the new high school as a sophomore. And that was the year that--the summer before my sophomore year was the year that I received that rifle and swapped it for the guitar. So, as a sophomore in high school, I was starting to play the guitar quite a bit and be known kind of as a folk singer. Let's see. (Tear in my eye, sorry.) So, let's see. Moving on through high school. I was politically oriented by the time I got into high school when we had moved to the town of Covina. I guess I should back up. When we first moved to California, we lived with one of my aunts and uncles, my dad's sister, for a few months before we got our own place in La Canada, which is near Pasadena. 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:31.000 Beautiful. 00:29:31.000 --> 00:37:00.704 Yeah. And it was pretty rural at that time outside of Pasadena. My dad had a business in Pasadena--a screen door company. We lived there for about three years. And then we moved to Covina. I didn't know until just a couple years ago--we actually lived in West Covina--even though we were right on the edge of Covina, my dad's business was in Covina, I was in the Covina School District. Even though we were in West Covina, technically. And the reason we were in West Covina--I found out later--was because there was a red line in Covina, and if you were Jewish, you couldn't buy a home in Covina. And some--my dad, we were Jewish and not religious, but just happened to be Jewish. And Covina was an area where there just, there wasn't really any any sign of other Jews around. It was pretty much, you were really in the minority. I mean, you were already in the minority, but I mean, when you moved, when we moved to Covina, there weren't any synagogues or temples, not really a path to continue being religious in any way. We weren't really that religious anyways, I don't think. My dad's family was, I guess what you'd call reformed Jews, pretty liberal Jews. And so there was that sense of isolation a little bit. And I know that my dad he wanted to join the golf club and was turned down. Many years later when my dad had established himself as a community leader, they invited him to join, and he didn't. He turned them down. So, let's see. I had a political orientation because my dad ran for school board. There was a couple of propositions on the ballot when I was--you know, I wasn't voting or anything, but I was just in my parents' household. And I was exposed to the politics that they were experiencing. And at the time that that red line was not just for Jews, but it was also for Black people. And I think probably for Latinos. And there was a law that came up for repeal. It was called the Rumford Act (Rumford Fair Housing Act). And it was the repeal of the Rumford Act--I guess it allowed people to discriminate when selling their house. So if somebody came to buy your house and they were of a minority that you didn't approve of, then you could legally just say that it wasn't for sale anymore or whatever. So there was a repeal of that law that came up, and my dad got really got behind it--a repeal of the Rumford Act. So you couldn't, you could not discriminate anymore. And that passed. And as a kid, we drove around town in a van putting up stickers on telephone poles and anywhere we could put stickers for the No on whatever the proposition was. Fourteen. I can't remember. (It was Proposition 14.) So that was kind of my early political experience, standing up for something that was important to my dad turned out to be important to me, too, in the long run. Although I probably, as any kid, I was probably pretty much unaware of what the real issues were. But I remember the '60 presidential convention. It was on my television, like for the whole time it was on, and I--and that's when I first saw John Kennedy and was just completely taken up with his charisma as a kid. We see films now and stuff, but it's hard to, I think, to really grasp the experience of that time--how it affected the Baby Boomer youth. Anyways, so my dad ran for school board and because there were two seats open on the school board, and there was already two members of the school board that were members of the John Birch Society, which is--I like to describe as the embryo of the MAGA (Make America Great Again) movement. They were headquartered in a town called San Marino, and I dunno, they were ultraconservative, extremist organization--right-wing extremist organization. And my dad--there were also two people running for the two seats on the board that were also in the John Birch Society. So there would've been four members of the school board if they won, that were in the John Birch Society. And there were about maybe fifteen people running for those two seats. And it's a nonpartisan election. It's not a Democrat or Republican election. It's completely nonpartisan. But these John Birch Society members had made it into a partisan thing because they wanted to (reject) federal funding for schools and wanted to write their own local curriculum, a lot like what Oklahoma's doing right now and Florida and some other states. So he got together with a friend of his that was, just happened to be my pediatrician, and my dad was what you would call in those days moderate Democrat. And my pediatrician was a moderate Republican and explained the situation, and they decided that they would form a ticket. And then they invited all of the people that were running for the two seats except for the two members of the John Birch Society over to our house and had a meeting. And basically the end of the meeting was that everyone would drop out of the election and get behind my dad and and my doctor as a ticket to defeat extremists that were trying to take over the school board. And they won. And then my dad later became the president of the school board. So that had a very strong impact on me. Just the strategy of doing that and the way that they managed to win in that situation. That was probably when I was like a freshman or sophomore. So, let's see. Going on from there, what's the next thing on the list? 00:37:00.704 --> 00:37:05.215 Right. So obviously during that time of turmoil of the Vietnam War-- 00:37:05.215 --> 00:37:06.684 --okay. I was thinking that might be right. 00:37:06.684 --> 00:37:11.224 And so the question was how did the Vietnam War affect to your life path and music? 00:37:11.224 --> 00:37:16.625 Majorly. Majorly. 00:37:16.625 --> 01:00:48.764 I guess we started hearing about it when I was a sophomore, just hardly anything. And by the time I was a junior, we're hearing more about it. We didn't know where Vietnam was. Never had heard of Vietnam. I mean at that time, the world was a lot smaller place. It's like sixty years ago. By the time I was a senior, the reality that I was gonna' have to register for the draft on my eighteenth birthday just became more real to me. It wasn't something I really thought about that much, but approaching the age of eighteen, I knew that as soon as I was eighteen, I was required to register for the draft. And there wasn't a lottery or anything then. It was just, you just had to register for the draft. And then it was really more about your pre-induction physical and whether you were going to college, depending on whether you would get a deferment or what category you would be placed into. And I gotta' say, I didn't know anything about the war. I think maybe the bodies were just starting to come home, but we weren't seeing that much of that yet. But I knew it was a war, and I knew that some people that were drafted were being sent over there. And it was scary. It was scary to me 'cause I was already basically, I think, probably by influence of the songs and stuff that I had been learning, I was already pretty much decidedly anti-war. And I was never like a physically, like a fighter, you know? It just wasn't in my nature. And so the whole idea of it really scared me. And there was one teacher that I had that was a Navy veteran. And I don't know if I just went and talked to him or somehow, he ended up kind of counseling me about it. And he was just sort of really downplaying it, like most people don't get hurt when they're in the military. The percentage of people that are actually wounded and hurt is really low compared to the percentage of people that are in the military. And you have as much chance of being killed in an auto accident as you do of being wounded or killed in a war. I wasn't buying any of it, you know, I just wasn't buying it. And it didn't help me one bit, that conversation. So my birthday came around, I registered for the draft. I was planning to go to college, which I did. I think that was a tough road for me right then because my brother, who was two years older, had gone through this whole thing before me and was in college. He was like, I think he was a junior when I was gonna' be a freshman. And he picked a school to go do that was very expensive. And somehow my parents managed to come up with the money to put him through school at USC (University of Southern California). And then when it was my turn to go, I think they were just kind of--they had kind of done that and kind of burned up the budget, burned up the program, burned up the energy on it. It's a lot to get your kid into college. A lot of support system that's needed and hooking you up with the right information and the right kind of counseling. I didn't have good counseling at school.and my parents were just, I think they were just busy. And so I didn't get a lot of guidance about school. My grades were, they were good enough to get into college, but they were marginally good enough to get into college. I had a couple of subject areas that, I was like a C student and mostly Bs and a couple As maybe. So I applied to Cal State Fullerton. It was a new school, and it was close by. And it was convenient. It wasn't necessarily a school that I wanted to go to or that I--it was just, it was sort of the most convenient four-year school. And I applied there, and I got in. So I went to Cal State Fullerton for my freshman year. My first semester I did okay. But by the time my second semester rolled around, I was pretty deeply immersed in--well, I guess you'd call it counterculture transition. Really started probably in my senior year. There just started to be--I don't even know how it all started, the whole counterculture thing. Maybe it was because there was experimentation being done and articles being written and featured in papers and magazines about LSD and about increased cannabis use and the younger generation and the Sunset Strip and the hippies on the Sunset Strip. That would just, was all just happening right in front of me as I was about to leave high school, my senior year in high school. So probably towards the end of my senior year in high school, I started smoking pot with some friends. There weren't very many people that were doing it. Like in my school, there were probably, I could probably count on my hand the people in my high school that I knew that had also smoked pot. And the interesting thing about it was that the demographic of those seven to ten people crossed all social lines. And that hadn't happened to me before. When I was in high school, the social scene was a caste system. There were the poor kids, there were the Mexican kids that were like--the element of the Latino population that were more like the sort of the, I dunno' if they were in gangs, but just had that energy. They dressed differently. They were kind of like the greasers, you know? And then they were the soces (socials or socialites) that had a little bit more money, mostly college prep kids, that dressed a little nicer, you know? And I was kind of on the edge of that group, you know? And, but all of a sudden, people that I would never have talked to or never have known or interacted with were people that I had smoked pot with on the weekend. So at school, all of a sudden you're crossing those lines. You're walking to class and you encounter somebody that's not in your social group at all, and it's like, Hey, Tony! Hey Joel! And other people are going like, Well, how do you know him? It was, but it was very open. There was a--something about it that felt really good in that kind of opening of societal boundaries. And so the last, probably last semester of high school, was very much that kind of a atmosphere, where I was interacting with kids that I hadn't normally interacted with. (We're doing okay there.) And so that kind of set the tone for my college experience. So by my second semester of college, I had--through a guy who was one of my best friends in college and his brother--kind of found my way down to Laguna Beach, which was like, you know, Fullerton was, from where I lived, halfway to Laguna Beach already, And my best friend's brother was the same age as my brother. He was two years older. But they had immigrated here from Canada, like maybe around eighth grade, freshman year high school. So they were basically Canadians, but they were living here. And this Canadian kid, Don, he became my best friend. And his brother was not a soc. He was more, you know, they didn't have a lot of money, my friends. So him being a little older, was kind of in that poor kid, not gonna' be going to college.. perceived as tough and dangerous. They weren't, they were just kids like us, but that was the perception. So anyways, he ended up initially turning us on to marijuana. And it became kind of a regular thing for us, but it moved us away from alcohol. So--'cause a lot of us were drinking at parties and stuff like that, stuff that kids do sometimes in high school. I was definitely open to experimentation as a teenager. So that through him and some people he knew from Claremont that moved to Laguna Beach, I ended up spending the summer--a lot of my second semester and the summer after--in Laguna Beach. And by the time that the school year was rolling around again, I was also spending a lot of time in Los Angeles because there, that's where the open stages were and I was playing music on the Troubadour and the Ice House and the Ash Grove on their open stage nights. And then any other places I could play little coffee houses, that was all still kind of happening. And so I didn't go back to Cal State Fullerton. I decided I was going to enroll at LA City College, the community college in Los Angeles, which would satisfy my 2-S status with the draft. That was basically the reason I was gonna' continue school. I didn't have any academic goals at that point. My goal was to stay out the Army, stay out of the military. And continue hanging out with my counterculture friends. And playing music. And so I rented an apartment in Los Angeles. I got a job working at a liquor store on Sunset Boulevard called Turner Liquors, right on the Sunset Strip. And I was a delivery boy to the stars. So all these movie stars that lived up in the Hollywood Hills and Beverly Hills and everywhere would order their liquor from this place called Turner Liquor Store. And I was the delivery boy. So I met a lot of really interesting people during that time that I delivered liquor to from that store. I worked there for probably, I don't know, probably six months. I went to register at LA Community College. I was late. I went like the last day to register. The way I tell the story is I paid my, whatever it was, $65 or $70 registration fees, went around to pick my classes, which were pretty much--everything I wanted to take was filled. And, pretty much all that was left was like second year basket weaving, prerequisite required. So before the night was over, I went back to the office and just gave them everything back, and they gave me my money back. And I was out of school. Within a few months, I was 1-A with a draft. And that was in 1968. The end of 1968. So my parents were very concerned, like, You need to be in school. Why did you drop out of school? Now you're gonna', now you're a 1-A. You're gonna' get drafted. I said, I'm not gonna' go. My dad encouraged me to apply for a conscientious objector status. So I went through that process, and at the same time, my friends in Laguna--I just, I was hanging out there a lot. There were a lot of acid trips, other psychedelics--no hard drugs but just basically marijuana and mescalin and LSD, mind-expanding experiences with other people, like-minded people. And they had determined--because the police were starting to be very, more proactively enforcing against the counterculture. You know, anybody that looked like a hippie or had long hair or wore bell bottoms or a tie-dyed shirt, you were a target to the police. And in Southern California, it was particularly hostile in certain towns, more so than others. And a few of our friends that were like maybe a little older in the counterculture had moved up to Oregon, up to the Northwest. They were gonna'--in groups, communal groups, we were gonna buy property, find jobs up there and try to make a new life, a different value system. And the people that I was kind of hanging out with decided they were gonna' go to Oregon, and they really wanted me to go with them. And it was big decision time. I was in sort of in the middle of my conscientious objector application process. I had to apply, and then they set up a meeting or an interview with the draft board. Between the time that I applied, which was probably a few months until I got my interview, I was counseled by a guy, who was like a Quaker. He was the father of a friend of mine who, father of a person--who actually later became the guitar player in my, in the Joel Rafael Band--that we'd gone to school together and played a little bit of music together. But he, his, they were Quaker background, and he was counseling kids on the draft because they were pacifists and were encouraging kids that wanted to be conscientious objectors, trying to help them succeed at getting a conscientious objector status. It became known to me at that time that if you were Jewish, your chances of getting a CO were very slim just because you were Jewish, by reputation, I guess, I don't know--Jewish people were thought of as fighters. I don't know why, but it was just a fact that if you were a Jew, you could get a CO, but it wasn't likely. So I did everything I could with, through the counseling, to learn what I could to have a proper interview. And I went for my interview and within a month or two after my interview, they sent me a 1-A. Sorry, you're a 1-A. And so that was about the time that we moved up to Oregon, about twelve or thirteen of us, caravanned up there in a few different vehicles. We didn't have a place. We were just going to the home of some other people that we knew that had moved up there who said, Yeah, you can come and stay with us until you could find a place and get jobs and this kind of thing. And so we headed up there--I just kind of just put it behind me. I didn't care. I was 1-A, I didn't care. I, it was like, Screw the draft board, screw the military, screw the Vietnam War. I'm not going, I don't believe in any of that stuff. And other things are important to me. So I'm going with my friends to the Northwest, and we're gonna' somehow buy a piece of property, and we're all gonna' build our own houses on the property, and we're gonna' have our own community. This is kind of the dream. I see the counterculture people at that time in a couple of different categories. So there were the antiwar protestors. There were the, just the flat out druggies that just, you know, went down. And then the back-to-the-landers. And that was kind of my group. New value system, back to the Earth, all that stuff. And so that formed my value system. I think that, and I've freely admitted that I think that psychedelics had something to do with that. I have friends and for myself as well, you know, when people ask me, How did you become an artist? You know, how did you remain an artist? Sometimes it surprisingly it will start with, Well, when I was a young adult, I took some LSD. That sounds funny, but I mean, there's a truth to that. And now people are microdosing on some of these things, like people that you would never imagine would even try something like that. Or using it for like, mental health therapy and stuff. I think that the counterculture--us counterculture kids--actually pioneered some stuff that stuck. We didn't change the world like we thought we were going to, but we did help perpetrate some changes. So we got up there, and I was contacted--forwarded a letter from my parents saying you're 1-A. You need to be at your draft--at this address on this date for a pre-induction physical to determine if you're physically fit to be in the military. So I'm in Oregon, and I'm supposed to come down to California to go for a physical, and I'm just thinking like, I'm not gonna' get down there for that. And so somebody, I don't know if, how I thought of it, somebody must have said like, Well, why don't you write to your draft board and tell 'em you live in Oregon now? So I did that, and it took them a minimum of three months--it might have been longer, it might have been four months or five months--before they wrote me back and said, Okay, your draft board has now changed to Eugene, Oregon. And this is your pre-induction physical notice. So you're to go to the induction center in Eugene,--or maybe it was in Portland, I don't know where it was--for your pre-induction physical on such-and-such date. So I thought, well, I guess I'll just write them a letter and tell 'em I moved back to California, which I did, and they followed suit several months later, changed my draft board back to Pasadena and sent me another pre-induction physical notice. So then I wrote them another letter, and I told them that I've moved up to Washington state. And so a couple months later I got a letter that said, We've determined that you are avoiding your pre-induction physical. And so on such-and-such date, you are to go to any draft board anywhere and report for an induction physical. And if you're found to be physically fit, you'll be immediately inducted into the armed services. Well, we were living, at that point, we had separated from the group that we had moved up there with. And we were just like a couple and we had-- 01:00:48.764 --> 01:00:50.018 --so this is you-- 01:00:50.018 --> 01:00:51.157 me and Lauren. Yeah. 01:00:51.157 --> 01:00:52.525 And where did you meet? 01:00:52.525 --> 01:00:53.000 We met in high school. 01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:55.317 Okay. 01:00:55.317 --> 01:21:17.420 Yeah, Lauren and I met in high school. Just to backtrack a little bit. I guess it was my junior year. We were both in a play together. And my mother had been--who knew Lauren's mother through the PTA or something--had asked me a few different times, Do you know so-and-so's daughter? She's a year younger than you. Do you know her? I don't think so, but I was kind of wondering who she was. And then I realized that she was in the play. And so she was in the--we had like a multi-purpose room that was where we did our high school plays. And one day, we were there for a rehearsal right near the beginning of the play. And I walked up and introduced myself to her, and she knew who I was, and I offered her a ride home. I had a license at that point, I was a junior. And gave her a ride home, and we started dating, and we had a very up-and-down relationship for my junior and senior year. You know, we were boyfriend and girlfriend and then we broke up, and then we got back together, and then we broke up, and then we got back together. And then when I was gonna' be leaving for high school (college), I was already on my counterculture journey, and she wasn't. And it just, it wasn't gonna' work out. And so I just broke it off. 'Cause I'm going to college. I'm not gonna' be in town anymore. In fact, I moved out of my house maybe two weeks before I graduated from high school. And she wasn't having it, so she followed me, and she finally caught up with me in Laguna Beach at my friend's place. And so she ended up, she was a freshman at Cal State Fullerton also, which she had applied to go to 'cause she thought that I was going there. But then found out that I dropped out. But now she's at Cal State Fullerton. So she then dropped out of school and took the journey north with the whole group. When we got up there, we were kind of estranged at that point. We were like, What is she doing here? You know? We were so young, you know? So we got up there and within, probably within a month, we figured out that the two of us had a whole lot more in common than the people we'd moved up there with--that come from a different background, different value system even than ours, and not one that we could abide. And so it seemed like an eternity, but it really didn't take that long before we split off and--to make our own way. Got into some trouble in Portland, Oregon. I've got a song about it called Old Portland Town. And there was a pretty vibrant counterculture scene in Portland at that time. And Portland was not the city it is today. In fact, I don't know if you know the history of Portland, but it was one of the--it was very racist at one time. And so nothing like it is today. It's one of the more liberal cities in the country now. But at that time, I think that the general population, like what you would call the typical society, this, I don't know how to really describe it, but just the society in general was very intolerant of the counterculture. And so there was a lot of police. There was a very big counterculture scene in Portland, and it was different than down here. Maybe it was just different than what I'd experienced, but in Portland, it was like the whole counterculture, the whole underground, was like one scene. Whereas down here, the people I was hanging with, we were all sort of like-minded. We weren't druggies. We were smoking pot, and we were experimenting with psychedelics, but we weren't doing hard drugs. But in Portland, the hard druggies, the thieves, the hippies, I mean, it was all just mixed up, you know? And there was--they infiltrated the scene with an undercover cop, who infiltrated the scene for about six months. And that was when Nixon was President. And they had, he had the Department of Justice had instigated the no-knock law. So they didn't need warrants to, if they wanted to raid somebody or search their premises, they could just do it with, I guess with probable cause. But they didn't need a warrant. And they had, so they had the no-knock law, and they had another thing called secret indictments, which instead of, once the grand jury had published an indictment for someone, instead of a warrant being issued, they would just stick that over in a file and just like accumulate indictments on a particular scene, which was the counterculture scene in Portland, basically. And so, while we were in Portland--we had actually, we had been down here. We had just come back up to Portland, and we were visiting at a friend's house, and the door got kicked in. And it was raided by a bunch of cops and plain clothes cops, all their guns drawn. It's pretty scary. And there was probably about twelve of us just hanging around at somebody, at this friend's house getting high. And they kicked in the door and then they basically took each one of us into the bathroom and searched us. And they--I think they called a matron for the girls that were there. And they had two secret indictments on me for sales of hashish. And what I had done is I had given a piece of hashish to this undercover guy, who we didn't trust. When we saw him--the first time we saw him--we were sure he was a undercover guy, sure he was a narc. This was what we called, undercover cops back then were narcs, narcotics officers. Well we were sure he was an undercover narc, and we would have nothing to do with him. People were telling us like, Oh no, he's cool. I got high with him the other day. This kind of stuff. And so after several months went by on a very rainy day, we encountered this guy at a park, where a lot of people used to hang out at Laurelhurst Park in Portland. And there was hardly anybody there. Just us, and he walked up to us and started talking with us. And we were standoffish at first, talking and talking. And then finally he said, Well, I'm gonna' go over to the donut shop down at the corner over there and get some coffee. If you guys wanna' come along, I'll treat. And it was rainy, and it was cold, and we went with him. And we sat there and visited with him for quite a while. And I ended up giving him a piece of hashish--break it off--a piece of hashish that I had, giving him a piece of it. And that ended up being two indictments for sales. And so I had to go through that whole court process up there. It really tied up the whole judicial system because they busted about, I think about 280 people over a period of like three days. So they literally had to empty the drunk tank at the jail. They had to empty the juvenile tank at the county jail to move us all into the jail. And so they moved us from the city jail. I guess we went for an indictment and then they moved us into the county jail, issued us uniforms. It was pretty intense. For some reason, Lauren's charges got dropped. So they arrested her, too, but then they dropped her charges--'cause they didn't really have anything on her--the next day. But they had these two indictments on me. There was a bail bondsman that was interested in bailing me out, but my parents decided that they would leave me in jail for a week or two to teach me a lesson. I'm not sure it was a really good lesson. But it affected me pretty heavily. I felt pretty abandoned in there. And finally got out, went to trial, and got two five-year probations concurrent. So it was ten years worth of probation, but they were run concurrently. So it was like, I'd be on probation for five years. And that was in 1969. So other thing--I had to leave the state of Oregon. So we came back down here under the, theoretically under the jurisdiction of my parents. But I moved in with a friend in Los Angeles, and Lauren moved in back with her parents. But we were still a couple. Eventually we found a place in Laurel Canyon, a little house. And this was 1970, so it was right when the Laurel Canyon music scene was just like in full swing. Crosby, Stills & Nash were making their second record. Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, I guess would've been. And I got a job. I had learned to do leather, to sew leather clothes from a friend that I had met in my travels--that stayed with us for a while in Oregon, and he had moved on. But he had taught me how to make leather, how to stitch with an awl and stitch leather stuff. And so I got a job at North Beach Leather in Los Angeles. And one of the people that worked there was David Crosby's girlfriend. So in the afternoons, a couple times a week, David would come into the shop, and I dunno' if you remember any of the early pictures of David Crosby, but he always had the leather jacket with the fringe. Well, it came from North Beach Leather. So he would come in to see his girlfriend towards the end of the day, and he was a very down-to-earth, kind of just easygoing person. So that's when I first met David Crosby. Turned out--and this was after, I don't know if you know his history at all--but he had a girlfriend that was killed in a car crash around that time, previous to when I met him. So this girl that I knew, her name was Shelly, that worked at North Beach Leather also, she was his current girlfriend. And she was living in a little house up in Laurel Canyon. But he, David wanted her to move on to his yacht. He had a yacht called the Mayan, you know, famously known yacht, sailboat of David Crosby's. And so she moved on his sailboat and gave us her little house in Laurel Canyon. So we lived there for maybe, I don't know, the rest of the year, maybe six or seven months, while I worked at the leather shop. And then I got a letter from my friend, who had taught me how to do leather. And he was in Seattle, and he was--he had rented a grocery store, like a little grocery store, corner market type thing, a very old neighborhood market. And there was an apartment upstairs. And he had rented that place--it was no longer a market--so he was turning that into a leather shop and was living in the apartment. It was a two bedroom apartment upstairs. And he invited me and Lauren to come up there and help him start this leather shop. So we moved to Seattle, and that was in 1970. I'm still on probation, so they had to change my probation officer to Seattle. I had like monthly visits to a probation officer. They didn't have drug tests back then, so I was never drug tested, but I would have to go visit my probation officer once a month, just check in. I guess he just sort of looked me over and decided if I was okay or not, I'm not sure. But I had, I think, three different probation officers during that time. So we lived in Seattle for not a year. He ended up finding a girlfriend, and she moved in with us. We had had a perfect trio, you know, a perfect triad. But then when she moved in, it just completely messed up the dynamic. And all of a sudden it just, everything was like a lot of friction, and we realized that we needed to leave. So we started looking for another place, and we found, we drove north to where the town of Everett is, north of Seattle. And we went up into the mountains just looking for a place. Like we were literally looking for some old shack or some old house that we could move into, maybe even squat into, but we were just looking for some other place to live. I was twenty, I guess I was twenty years old, and Lauren was like nineteen or something like that. So we, I'm trying to think. Sometimes my chronology's not perfect. Anyway, we moved up there, we moved out of the place in Seattle, and we found a place on the Mountain Loop Highway that runs from a town called Granite Falls. Like we would take the road towards Snohomish, and then you'd hit this town called Granite Falls. And then from there, there was a Mountain Loop Road that went through the mountains through the Cascades--western side of the Cascades--and then came back down in Arlington, Washington, which is like further north. And we got up on that road outta' Granite Falls, and we found a place for rent up there. It was called the Olympic Motel. And it were these little cabins about the size of this room. The whole cabin was about the size of this room. And then there was like a house that the manager lived in, and we rented one of those cabins, I think it was like 60 dollars a month. And we put a wood stove in it, and we lived there for about a month. And one day I was driving up a little further up the road, and there was this old house, like a really old barnwood-looking house. And there were two guys working on a car in the driveway in front of the house. It was like a driveway and a creek and a little bridge over the creek and then this house. And then they were working on this car, and they were both like a counterculture, like hippie types, you know, long hair and--and I thought, Wow, it's some of my people. So I pulled over, and I went over and introduced myself. And they took me across the street and through the woods, there was another little cabin there that a couple other, another couple lived in. So I met them. They were all from Illinois, had migrated to the west and were on their way to Canada to avoid the draft. And turned out that the one couple in the small cabin had been in a fender banger accident and didn't have any insurance and were being kind of chased down by the people who they'd had the accident with. Nobody had been hurt but just for insurance. And so they were kind of on the run. They didn't know what to do, so they were gonna' go back to Illinois. So they left, and they said, You can have our house. I said, Well, what's the arrangement? They said, Well somebody in Marysville owns it, and they only use it during the summertime 'cause they have a Girl Scout group. And it was about the size of this room also, but it was a cedar shake covered cabin--very rustic looking cabin--right on the Stillaguamish River, maybe fifty, sixty yards from the Stillaguamish River. And so they moved out, and we moved in. A few months later, the landlord came up one day and knocked on the door. And it wasn't the same people that he told could live in the house, right? So, he told us we could stay there until April. And then that they used the place from April until, I guess, August. And so we'd have to be gone for the summer. So when the summer was over, looking for a place again, we couldn't find one. And we just decided to look up those people in Marysville. So what I did is we went down to a friend of ours' house, and she cut my hair, and my hair was like, down to about here (elbow length). She cut my hair probably about like it is now. And then we went as a couple to this house in Marysville, where the landlord lived and pleaded our case. And, you know, We'd really like to move back in there for the winter. And he said, Well, the outhouse that you've been using--'Cause there was no bathroom. It was an outhouse. Everything was no utilities. We would get our water from a spring in a bucket, like gas cans that were for water. And then we'd pour that in a barrel that has spigot on it over our sink. So we'd have to fill that up about every four days or something like that. It was definitely a back-to-the-land thing. We had kerosene lamps for light, cook stove to cook stuff on. And they said, Well, you can move back in there and pay us 5 dollars a month and build an outhouse, because the outhouse we were using was on the next property over. So we agreed, built the outhouse, and lived there for the next winter. During that winter, we realized that Lauren was pregnant with Jamaica. And we were-- 01:21:17.420 --> 01:21:44.861 That was in 1970? 01:21:44.861 --> 01:21:45.916 That was in 1971. 01:21:45.916 --> 01:21:46.334 Okay. 01:21:46.334 --> 01:24:02.540 And my dad had died in 1970. We had come down to get some leather for the leather shop. Lauren and I had borrowed a friend's panel truck, and we drove down to her parents' house, and we were staying there, and my dad was having some health issues, and he went into the hospital for some tests. And then that morning, about three in the morning, Lauren's mom came in and woke us up and said, Your dad passed away. So we stuck around for about another week and then headed back up north to the leather shop. I was twenty-one, so I lost my dad early. He was sixty-one years old. So we were in this cabin and now we're gonna' have a baby, and one of the guys--the guy who was the manager at the Olympic Hotel and I had become friends, and he was kind of mechanically inclined. And so we found this old Chevy truck. It was a '53 Chevy pickup truck that was parked in an old field. It was like a dead truck out in the field. And bought it for 50 dollars and then he helped me basically rebuild the engine and do like a valve job and a few different things on it. He knew how to do all that stuff. So together we worked on that and got that truck running. And my mom told me, she said, Well look, my dad and my mom had bought some property three miles from here on the same road, just on the other side of 395. Like if you go across 395, the first driveway you hit goes up the hill to the top of the hill over there, three miles from here. And they had bought ten acres there to retire on in 1962, and they had developed it into an avocado orchard. And once my dad passed away whenever my mom would get anything from that property, she would just take it and stick it in a drawer 'cause she couldn't deal with it. And so a few years went by. So '71 rolls around, three years after my dad died, and we were gonna' have a baby. And she says, Well, I will put a mobile home or a trailer on the property if you'll come down and take care of it and help me get out debt with the property, you know, with the grove service. And so that sounded pretty good to us. So that's when we moved back to California. And I was still on probation. And now we're getting to how did I support myself, right? Is that coming up? 01:24:02.540 --> 01:24:19.404 So the move to North County and how, what you did for work during that time. 01:24:19.404 --> 01:28:44.479 So we actually had had Jamaica. We moved onto that property, and we built a shed that looks kind of like the shed I have out in back here. And we moved into that shed. She was like seven or eight months pregnant. And we had a friend that was maybe five years older than us that had her last baby that was natural childbirth--Lamaze method. And she'd had a midwife and a doctor that did home deliveries. And we decided that we wanted to do that. It was unheard of at the time. So we got a lot of criticism from people about that. But we hired this doctor. My brother actually helped me with the money for the doctor, and he agreed to deliver our baby. But he wouldn't come and deliver it in the shed we were living in 'cause we didn't have the trailer yet. And the baby was due in August. We'd been there for the summer. And so my brother was out of town. He lived in San Dimas. So he told us we could stay at his house and have the baby there. So we had the baby at my brother's house in San Dimas, but we were living on this property. And then within a month or so after that, the trailer was moved on--it was like a mobile home, and it was moved onto the property. And we set up household there. I got--my first job was with the grove service that had been taking care of my mom's property. Not to take care of my mom's property, though, but to just to work for them. And I got sent out with a crew of migrant workers to clear some weeds on a hill near Fallbrook. They dropped me off. We loaded in the back of a truck, and they drove us out to different places and dropped us here and there and everywhere. And they dropped me out on Reche Road next to this bank that had to have the weeds cleared with one of those weed sticks. So I did that for about a week and got a real appreciation for how hard the work is that migrant workers have to do. But then, luckily, I was looking for another job the whole time, and I got a job at an irrigation supply at Fallbrook called Southwest Irrigation. And I was like a counter boy, like basically when people come in to buy couplings and elbows and tees and pipe, I would wait on them at the counter. And then I also was, would deliver pipe out to the big jobs they were developing into orchards and kiwis and avocados and all that kind of stuff. At the same time, around that same time, we took a class from the agricultural extension on avocado farming 'cause we had ten acres of avocados that were just coming into production on my mom's property. My mom and my brother were pretty much in charge of all of that 'cause he had taken over my dad's business, and was just considered more legitimate than us. We were like counterculture, like not to be trusted or whatever. So I mean, not that they didn't trust us, but I think that they just--I don't think they thought they could depend on us, you know? So they kind of ran the show, and we needed resources, and I had friends I'd met around here that, we'd learned about avocado farming. And I had other friends that were farmers, and we were trying to do as right as we could by that orchard because it was just coming into production. And there were some things that needed to be done. They needed some equipment they didn't have. We just had our little car that we were driving around in. But we needed a truck, and we needed a tractor. But these are things that my mom and my brother were not interested in financing. And so after about three-and-a-half years there and after the birth of my second daughter, who was born on the property in a teepee, same doctor-- 01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:56.796 And what is her name? 01:28:56.796 --> 01:31:31.194 Corrina. 01:31:31.194 --> 01:31:44.247 Corrina. 01:31:44.247 --> 01:33:43.333 Yeah. And so she was born on the property. And sometime shortly after that, I kind of made the plea again, like, look, we need--I think I had a tractor at that point. They'd got me a used tractor. But I said, We need a salary. I mean we have free rent, but we need, we're taking care of a ten acre orchard. We're selling the fruit for you, we're making sure that it's taken care of. And basically the people around here that I knew had told me, They should be paying you like a couple hundred bucks a month besides just giving you a place to live there. So I kind of--what's the word I'm trying to think of?--lobbied for a salary, and they weren't having it, you know? And so I was pretty frustrated with my mom and my brother at that point, and I kind of called their bluff. I said, Well look, if you guys are not willing to put into the property what it needs, then you should probably sell it because it's coming into production, and there's gonna' be a lot of stuff needed. And if you don't do what you need to do, it's just gonna' be a big loss. And so they decided to sell it. So that meant we had to find another place to live. So we had developed some friendships with some folks that we still are very close to. Well actually he's passed away, but, his wife, Lizzie, David and Lizzie, our friends, had a place up in the Sierras near Twain Harte, which is in the gold country off of Highway 49 on the Sonora Pass. And they had a thirty-acre apple orchard. They were also back-to-the-landers, right? They're a little older than us. And actually, they had been able to get the land up there where they went. And so we'd become friends with them, and so we decided, well, let's move up there near them, you know? 'Cause land is a lot cheaper than it is here. So we found a place up there to rent, to try to explore the area. And I was gonna' try to--I was really just trying to make, just starting to make some headway with my music here in California. There was a group in California called The Alternative Chorus. It was in Hollywood. It was called the Los Angeles Alternative Chorus (Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase).And it was run by a guy named Len Chandler and a guy named John Braheny. And they were both songwriters, working songwriters. And if you read Bob Dylan's book, Chronicles, which I didn't read 'til many years later, after I was no longer in touch with Len Chandler, I found out that Len Chandler was a mentor of Bob Dylan's when Bob Dylan moved to New York in the Greenwich Village scene. And he was this Black guy, who was a songwriter who rode a motorcycle and didn't take anything from anybody. He was a real outspoken progressive person. And Bob Dylan had the utmost respect for him, and he outlines it in his book, Chronicles. But anyways, Len Chandler was one of these two guys that ran this Alternative Chorus. And what they did is they, you could make an appointment with them as a songwriter and then you'd show up at this little place in Hollywood that they had behind a house, another little house behind a house, where they would do this Alternative Chorus thing. And they had a cassette recorder. And they would have you play like five or six songs just right there for them into their cassette recorder. And they'd probably do like, do this once or twice a month and have like four or five songwriters come in over a day or over two days. And then they would go through everything and pick out the top songs and contact those songwriters and say, Okay, we picked out two of your songs, and we want you to come and showcase at our showcase night at the Ash Grove on such and such a night. Well, every time I went there, they picked out two of my songs, and they were real champions for me. I'm emotional to talk about-- 01:33:43.333 --> 01:33:44.000 That's okay. Take your time. Yeah. 01:33:44.000 --> 01:58:25.524 Yeah. Because as an artist, you run up against the wall so many times. But these guys, they heard what I was doing, and they acknowledged it, and they showcased my music. It didn't get me that far., but the acknowledgement from two people that were in the business that would let you come in and showcase and make some connections. So I worked with those guys for probably three or four years. Over three or four years, they probably showcased me four or five times at different venues. And some of it led to somebody being interested in a song, a publisher being interested in a song, or something. So we had just--so right when that was happening, we moved up to Calaveras County, which was the county north of where our friends lived. And we were completely isolated up there. It was like, we didn't know anybody, and they were, our friends were fifty miles away. So it was kind of a trip to get there, and we weren't seeing them that often. I didn't have a job, so I found a place in Sonora, a bar that would hire me to play three nights a week at like 50 bucks a night. But that was like a thirty mile drive on windy roads, Highway 49. And the place was called the County Jail. I think I was actually off probation by then. I'd managed to get off probation by then. But it was kind of funny 'cause the place was called the County Jail. And so I would drive there three nights a week and play for two or three hours for 50 bucks. And that's what we were living on. The place we were renting was like a labor house, like a lumberjack labor house up in the woods. And we stayed there about six months, and it was just like nothing happening up there. And I'd just started to make some connections down here, and I just felt like, boy, what a mistake to come up here. Right around that time I wrote a song called Goldmine. And we had met--through a friend in Seattle when we lived there--we had met--Well, let's see how I explain this. We'd met these two older folks, I mean, four or five years older than us, a couple in Seattle that were kind of our grounding people there. And they had been friends with Jesse Colin Young from the Youngbloods, which was a--I don't know if you know who that was, but they were a big group in the sixties. He had that hit song, Get Together, was that big hit song for Jesse. And his brother-in-law, his wife's brother, was a really great piano player. The Youngbloods just broke up, or they were just about to break up, and he was starting another band called the Jesse Colin Young Band. And Scott Lawrence, his brother-in-law, was gonna' be the piano player. So they sent him up there 'cause he was also trying to deal with the draft. And he came up to Seattle to stay with these two older friends that we knew that were friends of Jesse's and Susie Young, to deal with the draft board in Seattle, because he had a letter from Jesse that basically said that Jesse was homosexual and that Scott was homosexual, and they had a relationship and that was gonna' get him outta' the draft. But they couldn't do it in San Francisco 'cause too many people knew who Jesse was. And they wouldn't fly in San Francisco, but in Seattle, nobody knew anybody. So they sent him up there to deal with it, to get out of the draft. And that's how we met him, 'cause he stayed there for about two or three weeks. And so when we came back down to Southern California, then the band, his band, was going. Jesse's band was going, and Scott was in the band. And they were playing in LA after we came back down here. And we kind of finagled our way backstage somehow. You know, we kept saying we knew Scott, and we were trying to get backstage. And all of a sudden, Scott walked by, we go, Hey, Scott. You know? So he brought us backstage, and we met Jesse and Susie, his sister, and so we had cultivated a relationship with them. So now we're in Wilseyville, up in Calaveras County, and I've just written this song, Goldmine. And Lauren writes a letter to Jesse Colin Young and asks him if I can come over to the Bay Area and record this song, Goldmine, in his studio, which, I was--cold feet to do that. But she said, I'm just gonna' write him. All they could say is no. Well, he said yes. So we went over there and recorded the song and then Alternative Showcase showcased that song. A couple different publishers held that song, but nobody ultimately picked it up. So we moved back down here to a little place in Oceanside. A rental place in Oceanside. And we were probably there for under a year. So I, we had a baby and a 3-year-old. Lauren decided to get her Montessori credential 'cause she'd been like a helper at the Montessori school. We still had a baby that was gonna' go to the Montessori school. So she started to get her Montessori training. And I started, was able to procure a lawnmower and an edger, a rake, and a shovel and a hoe. And I started to accumulate some gardening customers up in the LA area. The first one was my brother. And then he had, he knew somebody that needed a gardener. So that was the second client. And then Lauren's aunt lived up in that area. And so she hired me. So I had three gardening clients. So I would drive up on like a Tuesday, stay at my brother's house, next morning, do his gardening, go over to another place in town and do the gardening there. And then it would be about one. I would drive into Hollywood with a stack of reel-to-reel tapes of my songs and hit all the high rises, which are filled with publishers. I'd just go in and look at the directories and find out where all the publishers were. And then I would go to every publisher and drop off a tape. Like every week. And my tapes were like piling up at publishers 'cause nobody was listening to them. They were just getting dropped off there. So that didn't really--one guy actually decided that to hold the song, Goldmine. And they gave me like a letter of intent that they wanted to hold it and so not to show it to anybody else. And that was about three months or four months, and then they decided they weren't gonna' do it. So I have lots of those stories. You have to, it's like shots on goal, you know, you have to take shots on goal to score. So, let's see, from there--we hated that place at Oceanside. And we had our kids back in the school in Fallbrook, where they had been when we lived on my mom's property. And we found a place in Fallbrook to rent. It was an eight-acre avocado orchard with a house on it. And so we were able to parlay our way into being the managers of the orchard for the guy who owned the property in exchange for the rent of the house. So another similar kind of setup. So we lived there for four years. And during that time I started gigging. I actually, I had a job--okay, get back to my jobs again. So I had that job with the grove service. So when, after about two weeks of that, I got the job at the irrigation place. I worked there for about a year. And I left there because one of the guys that was a manager at the irrigation place heard about an opportunity and told me about it. He knew two carpenters, two local carpenters from Fallbrook, that were building a big house, just maybe six miles from here, up in the Olive Hill area between here and Fallbrook. It was a custom home they were building for the guy that owned El Molino Mills that used to make all the health food flour and all that stuff. And I can't think of his name right now. But anyways I got hired on as a carpenter's apprentice with those two guys. And they basically taught me basic carpentry and framing. It was really cool job. They were two older guys, like almost my grandfather's age, that had been carpenters around here for years and old school, you know. And I had to do all the really dirt work. But I learned a lot, that I could put into my personal toolkit. About building and construction and wood and hammers and saws and all that stuff. When that house was done, they didn't have another project, but they got me a job with a construction crew in Oceanside that was building a, it was like a, I think it was an office building. And I went to work with them as a framer for about a month. And I hated it. It was just like, 'cause it was nothing like working with these two old carpenters. These, they were all guys about my age or maybe a little older and just very construction worker kind of energy, and it just wasn't my cup of tea. And so I left there and I looked around for another job, and I got a job at the Fallbrook Enterprise, the newspaper. And I had a part-time job there as a pasting--pasting up the real estate and what do they call 'em? Like the want ads. I forget, there's another name for it. So I was doing like, maybe four pages in the newspaper every week. But it was before computers. So everything was like tape on a light board with an exacto knife. And then you would get, the letters would be generated by one computer that would just generate your copy. You'd put it through a waxer and cut it up and stick it to the grid board on a light table. You've probably seen that stuff, paste-up work like that. So I did that and that was really a, I'd done some of that stuff on my own as a kid. I was always into making posters, and I'd go to the stationary store and get the transfer type. And so I kind of had that already. And then working there, they had all the tools, all the different kind of tapes, and the exacto knife and the waxer. So I really enjoyed that job there, and while I was working there, a guy I had met in LA in auditioning to be in a band that I ended up not being in, had moved to Oceanside. And he had been at the same audition, and we'd all exchanged phone numbers. And he knew that I lived nearby. He was a bass player. So he contacted me. And we ended up forming a duo--me playing my songs and him playing bass and singing harmony. And we worked our way down to an open stage in Encinitas at a club called The Stingaree, which, which was owned by Jack Tempchin. I don't know if you know who he is, but he's the, he goes by Jack Tempchin, Eagles songwriter--Jack Tempchin. He wrote Peaceful Easy Feeling, and Already Gone. He wrote Slow Dancing for Johnny Rivers. He's written multiple hit songs. And he lives in Encinitas, just a regular guy, great songwriter. And I had gotten onto him when we first moved to this area, and we'd become friends. 'Cause he had an open stage that he ran at like a music store over there. It was called The Blue Ridge Music Store in Encinitas. It's not there anymore. So I would go play the open mic there that he ran one day a week, or maybe it was a couple times a month. And then he had some success 'cause the Eagles became really big and his songs were like, their hits. And so he was able to buy a nice house in Encinitas. And he bought a bar, and he thought, Well, I'm gonna' buy a bar and make it into a music club. So he made this club called The Stingaree. It was named after a song he'd written called The Stingaree and which was a song about a big party in San Diego that he'd gone to. And so they had an open stage there one night a week. Before the band would play, they would have an open stage. And so we went down there one night and played the open stage. And the band that was playing that night after us was Rosie Flores and the Screamers, Rosie and the Screamers. And I don't know, you probably know who Rosie Flores is, but she's actually being inducted into the San Diego Music Hall of Fame in September. She's my age, but, and she doesn't live here anymore. But she was, at that time, she was like really well known in the San Diego scene here. And she'd had an all-girl band. And now she had this band called The Screamers. And they were packing the place every time they played there. And so we came in one of the nights and played on the open stage, and she heard me play that song, Goldmine. And she came up to me after that. And she wanted to, she wanted that song, you know, she wanted to play it. So I gave her the song, taught her the song, and then we kind of hit it off. And we started playing together. And we ended up--my friend ended up going to Saudi Arabia to work for some oil company or something, the bass player guy. And so Rosie and I ended up being a duo 'cause her band had broken up. And so it was Rosie Flores and at that time, I was using a different name. I've had like three last names. My born last name, and then a name I took on sort of through the whole draft thing, and then my name now, which has been my name for many, many years, which is a Spanish translation of my middle name. So anyways, the two of us had this duo, and we were playing five nights a week, plus I had the job at the newspaper. So I was making okay money, enough to keep us in groceries and pay our rent. Well, we didn't really have any rent, but pay our expenses, our utilities, and all that kind of stuff. And it was all going along pretty good. And then Rosie decided she was gonna' move to LA because San Diego--there was just like, it's like being a big fish in a small bowl. You couldn't really do anything past what we were doing. We were very popular. We were playing in two different clubs four or five nights a week. But she was the draw. I was the songwriter guy, and she was the singer, so she was singing some of my songs. I was singing some of my songs. And then we were doing a bunch of covers that she was singing, and I was singing harmony. So she decided she was gonna' move to LA, and that kind of left me on my own again. So I didn't have a sound system. We were using her sound system. So at that point, a friend of mine from school named Tad Williams had come into some money. His dad had died and had left him and his brother some money, and he told me that he wanted to be my sponsor. So he was like my first patron, and he bought me a sound system. And he basically--I still had the part-time job at the newspaper--but he made sure that our bills were paid for the next couple years. He'd come out and check on us and see how we were doing. And if we were a little short, he'd give me a thousand dollars, to last me in the next couple months. And that got us through, so I could continue to play music. So I was hauling my sound system to a club over in Cardiff three or four nights a week. And it was just basically playing in a bar for four hours a night. Pretty rough gig. So I did that. Then he got killed in a plane crash. And so that was over. That was about the time that--there was a paper in Oceanside called the Blade Tribune at that time. And it was--I forget--it was owned by a company that owned a bunch of newspapers. And the guy who owned the newspapers was the father of this guy, who became a fan of Rosie and myself. He would come to a lot of our shows. So when she left town, he continued to support me, coming to the shows and stuff like that. And he was the music editor at the Blade Tribune. This is a little bit outta' chronology, but this is about 1976-77 is when, she probably left town in '77. And so I was doing these solo gigs at a few different clubs here and there. And just trying to kinda' keep my head above water. And Rick Danko, the band, you know the band? They had just done that movie, The Last Waltz, and the band had broken up, that was like the end of the band. And then Rick Danko, the bass player from the band, started a band of his own, just called the Rick Danko Band. And this guy, who was the Blade Tribune editor, called me up one day and said, Hey, Rick Danko is gonna' be playing at the La Paloma Theater. He is doing two shows on this one night in like an early show and a late show, and they don't have an opening act. Here's the promoter's name. You should go over there and talk to 'em. So I went over there, and I got the gig. So that was my first opening for a national touring act. I opened two shows for Rick Danko at the La Poloma Theater. And Rick Danko and his brother, Terry, came out during my set for both shows, up in the balcony and listened to my set and really liked my songs. And so Rick and I became friends. And he had me open a couple more shows for him when he was in California. 'Cause he would travel all over the place, and he lived in Malibu at the time. So I kind of became a sometime opening act for Rick Danko, who would be traveling with all kinds of people. One of the times in his band was Paul Butterfield--was in his band, or different really high-visibility players that he would pick up along the way and they--so I got to meet a lot of people through Rick. Like I met Paul Butterfield. I actually went to Rick Danko's birthday party, his 40th birthday party, in Malibu. And I met Richard Manuel and his wife from the band and Garth Hudson from the band. They were both at his party. And then I met Joe Cocker through him. I met Bobby Norwood through him. I mean, just a number of people that he would be interacting with me, would just introduce me as his friend and songwriter friend of his. And because I opened that show for him, I got the idea like, Wow, there's all these national shows coming into town. There's like three different promoters promoting in different venues. And so those became my targets. Instead of playing in bars for four hours with cigarette smoke and nobody listening, I started--every time I'd hear about a concert, I'd just keep my eyes on the ads and as soon as someone would be announced, I'd go hit up the promoter. I had a review from the Rick Danko show that was written by my friend, where I had a really good mention, and I parlayed that to a show with Jesse Colin Young when he came to town, because I knew him already. And then that--I ended up getting a show with John Lee Hooker from that, Country Joe and the Fish from that, Emmylou Harris. I mean, the list is like really long, you know? And I did that for the next maybe few years. At one point I did have another job after the Jazzercise job (Joel worked as the audio person on video tapes of original Jazzercise classes created by Judi Missett.), with Community Ed (education). A friend of ours, was working in the Community Ed system, and she said, I think that you could teach on a limited credential--it's like a lifetime limited credential based on experience--in the Community Ed department for senior citizens that are in like rest homes and convalescent hospitals. And so for about a year, I sang songs and played movies that I would rent at the library for senior citizens in rest homes. I would interface with the activities directors at these various homes. And through the Community Ed system, I would go and do a two-hour class for their activities of these homes. It was one of the hardest jobs I ever had. But it served me really well because it was a really good hourly rate. And I could do it like two days, three days a week without having to spend all my time at work while I was trying to do music and art. 01:58:25.524 --> 01:58:28.534 So the classes were music you were teaching? 01:58:28.534 --> 02:05:50.564 Well, they wanted--initially she wanted me to do like an exercise class, just a stretching class with these older folks that are like my age now. But I didn't have any experience in that. So I said, what I could do is I could--I found out that there were a lot of films available, 16-millimeter films back then, through the library system that I could check out. And most of the centers had projectors. So I would go in, I would show them a half-an-hour film on just an interesting subject. I mean, it might be Will Rogers' California Ranch or it might be a documentary about an old guy that lives in Oregon that builds log cabins. I mean, just anything interesting I could find. And then the rest of the class would be sing-alongs. I'd performed some songs and do some sing-alongs. And some of those songs were Woody Guthrie songs. So I was pulling that back into my repertoire, Also, a good place to end, too, is that at one point, because I knew a lot of Woody Guthrie songs, at one point in my career when my kids were young, I decided to look into Woody Guthrie with more depth, because I realized how many people he had influenced and particularly Bob Dylan. And I thought, Well, rather than just listen to Bob Dylan, I want to go back a step and see what it was he found when he was influenced by Woody Guthrie. And so I kind of took a journey to learn more about Woody Guthrie. Even though I had played some of his songs from the time I was a teenager, I just decided to dig in deeper. And the first thing I found out was that there wasn't much Woody Guthrie around. Like, his records were all out of print. You know, you'd be, if you could find a copy of a Bound for Glory, his bestselling novel, you were lucky 'cause those were out of print. But I did manage to find a copy, and I found a store up in Santa Monica that sold a lot of children's records that had the Songs to Grow On that were written by Woody and his wife for their kids. And so my kids were brought up on those songs in the cassette player in the car. And those were some of the first songs I learned. I also found a copy of a tape with Woody and Cisco Houston singing cowboy songs. So I started to incorporate some of the songs into my own set. And when I got this job with Community Ed, I developed that up further. So I made lyric sheets so I could really learn these songs, and the Woody Guthrie songs were the ones that really stuck out as the best songs to me. And so at one point, I thought, Well, I could actually put together a one-man show about Woody Guthrie, and maybe I could even get an endorsement or be sanctioned by the Woody Guthrie, Woody Guthrie's management, which he still had a manager even though he was dead--this guy, Harold Leventhal, I knew from the books that I had found--a couple of books--that he was the guy, who was kind of in charge of Woody Guthrie's estate at that point. And so I looked up his office. I found a number for his office in New York City, and I called his office, and Harold Leventhal answered the phone, And I explained to him that I was a songwriter in California and that I had learned a number of these Woody Guthrie songs and that I had been listening to the Library of Congress tapes, which were recorded by Alan Lomax. It's about four hours of Woody, similar to what we're doing here. Only Woody would tell his story and then play a song that he'd written that kind of went with it. And those tapes are in the Library of Congress, and I--that you can get them on cassette tapes. So I've been listening to those, the interviews and the songs, and I thought, Well, I could put together a real show. So I called Harold Leventhal and kind of broached the idea with him, and he completely just shut me down. He said, No, you can't do that. You can't even play any Woody Guthrie songs, he says, because, all those songs are protected, and they're being held for a production that we're doing about Woody Guthrie, and you cannot use them under any circumstances. Goodbye. Bang, you know. So I was like, Wow, you know, I was really like, taken aback. So I thought, Well, screw that, I'm gonna' play these songs anyways. So I played them in, for my classes, I didn't develop up the show. I didn't go there. But I played these songs in my classes and I honed up these Woody Guthrie songs, so they were sounding really good. Ironically--and this would be a good stop point--many years later, when I was playing at the Woody Guthrie Festivals on a regular basis, when Nora Guthrie gave me the first Woody Guthrie song to write music to, it was a song called Dance a Little Longer. And we recorded it, and I was on my way home from the Woody Guthrie Festival in Oklahoma. I don't know which year it was, but it was the year after I had, it was probably around 2000 (2003). Yeah, 'cause that's when that first record came out that had that on it. So I was on my way home, and my cell phone rings, and it's a New York City number. But I decided to answer, and I answered it, and it was Harold Leventhal calling me up. Now he doesn't know I was the guy, who called him many years earlier, but now I'm the guy who finished this Woody Guthrie song, and he really liked it, So he called me up to tell me how much he liked it and to thank me profusely for helping to carry on Woody Guthrie's legacy. So the irony of that really hit me. And, of course, I never told him about the earlier connection. But that sort of closed the endorsement, finished the endorsement from Woody Guthrie Archives and Woody Guthrie Publications and that kind of thing. So where we're leaving off is I've just worked at, with the Community Ed, and I tried to do the Woody Guthrie thing. Harold shut me down. And now I'm about to get a job at the San Diego Wild Animal Park. 02:05:50.564 --> 02:05:56.157 Okay. Thank you so much. As you have alluded to, this is session one-- 02:05:56.157 --> 02:05:57.052 Yes. 02:05:57.052 --> 02:06:01.814 --of Joel's oral history, and we'll be back together for the next interview. 02:06:01.814 --> 02:06:04.314 I look forward to it. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.&#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive&#13 ; 30&#13 ; information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.xml RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview August 20th, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part one interview, Rafael discusses his early musical influences, his participation in the 1960s counterculture movement, and the beginnings of his success in the music industry. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-086 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-08-20 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States Folk music Counterculture -- United States Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Chicago (Ill.) Covina (Calif.) West Covina (Calif.) Portland (Oregon) Seattle (Wash.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. community history Art and artists Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/13134d02db11b020ca74cefe02bf7d86.pdf 2bc5a9d5da4cccd177519f4ba03d3105 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview transcript, September 23, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part two interview, Rafael discusses the evolution of his musical career and the formation of The Joel Rafael Band. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-09-23 Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States San Diego Wild Animal Park Folk music festivals—United States California condor — Conservation — United States Record labels Folk music — United States — The Joel Rafael Band Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) West (U.S.) Santa Monica (Calif.) Burbank (Calif.) Poway (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Kerrville (Texas) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23_transcript Art and artists Community history