11 10 181 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5c41e45a9e19b8754a22c3428a572fc2.mp4 e282ae6225774ef6b527980b1089ce42 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Karen Schaffman, June 5, 2025 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany San Marcos (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0068bb6bea2ea5f55c2f9c5c968a5d27.pdf a666cc68c14f402d6f965e1b1ace736a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Interview transcript, June 5, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_transcript Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karen Schaffman OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. SC027-084 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Karen Schaffman Jennifer Fabbi moving image SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5c41e45a9e19b8754a22c3428a572fc2.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 56 Experience with dance as a child and adolescent Schaffman reflects on being a lifelong dancer starting with her initial experience with dance as a child and her mother’s role in exposing her to dance. lifelong dancer ; mother ; Connecticut Ballet ; ballet ; jazz ; Hartford Conservatory 0 382 Formal education Schaffman details her formal undergraduate and graduate education in dance including a degree at the European Dance Development Center in Holland and a PhD in Dance History and Theory at University of California, Riverside. University of Massachusetts ; women's studies ; feminism ; gap year ; San Francisco ; improvisation ; Holland ; Germany ; California ; University of California, Riverside ; Feldenkrais Method ; Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais 0 874 Foundational theory and practice for Schaffman’s work Schaffman describes theories and practices that underpin her work including a somatic approach to dance, perceptual improvisation, dance dialects, and contact improvisation. somatics ; perceptual improvisation ; dance dialects ; contact improvisation ; performance and cultural theory 0 1802 Service to the community and profession Schaffman discusses her teaching, scholarship, and service and how she was able to differentiate her service from teaching and scholarship during the retention, tenure, and promotion process. teaching ; scholarship ; creative activity ; service ; David Avalos ; Susan Foster ; Lower Left ; Bonnie Biggs ; Mtfti Imara ; California Center for the Arts ; Andrea Liss ; Kristine Diekman ; Meryl Goldberg ; Center ARTES ; Marilyn Huerta ; Arts and Lectures ; curriculum 0 2233 International work Schaffman speaks to her work in and travels to different countries and the influence this has had on her life and career. global citizen ; intercultural exchange ; Europe ; Mexico ; Pachuca ; Day of the Dead ; Holland 0 2238 Plans in retirement Schaffman shares her plans for retirement including slowing down, participating in a training institute in Vienna, and coming back to teaching at CSUSM as part of the Faculty Early Retirement Program. Donna Ray ; Feldenkrais ; training institute ; Vienna ; Pilates 0 2456 Schaffman’s journey to CSUSM and evolution of the campus and curriculum Schaffman reflects on the evolution of CSUSM, especially regarding the growth of the dance curriculum and program, faculty, and guest artists. curriculum ; University Curriculum Committee ; dance minor ; Choreographies of Resistance ; Michael McDuffie ; Ranjeeta Basu ; Cheri Hill ; breadth ; active learning ; social justice ; diversity ; Arts and Lectures ; Dancing through Prison Walls ; Visual and Performing Arts ; space ; theater ; Anya Cloud 0 4019 Working during the Covid pandemic Schaffman talks about her work during the Covid pandemic and the rise of Black Lives Matter and murder of George Floyd. (keywords: pandemic, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd, online performances, Historically Black Colleges and Universities, Mtfti Imara, T. Lang, Melicia Taylor, Black artists, Zoom, Skyla Miles, Minnie Atkins, sabbatical, Think Gravity Dance Tank, symposium, Anya Cloud, Ishmael Houston-Jones, contact improvisation, Contact Dance International Film Festival, Makisig Akin) pandemic ; Black Lives Matter ; George Floyd ; online performances ; Historically Black Colleges and Universities ; Mtfti Imara ; T. Lang ; Melicia Taylor ; Black artists ; Zoom ; Skyla Miles ; Minnie Atkins ; sabbatical ; Think Gravity Dance Tank ; symposium ; Anya Cloud ; Ishmael Houston-Jones ; contact improvisation ; Contact Dance International Film Festival ; Makisig Akin 0 4486 Schaffman’s most impactful work Schaffman reflects on what she considers to be her most impactful work. She believes the creation of the Dance program at CSUSM is the most important accomplishment of her career. Debra Hay ; Lower Left ; dance program ; Summer Arts ; Think Gravity 0 5169 Additional projects and collaborations Schaffman adds a few more collaborative projects that she wants to give her colleagues and the University credit for. United and Severed ; Kristine Diekman ; traumatic injury ; PTSD ; palliative care ; Mindfulness Center ; Elizabeth Hospice Center 0 Oral history Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:29.614 Hello, this is Jen Fabbi, and today I am interviewing Dr. Karen Schaffman for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is June 5th, and it is 2:10 p.m. This interview is taking place at Karen's office on the CSU San Marcos campus, where we are guests on traditional unceded Luiseño/Payómkawichum land. Karen, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:29.614 --> 00:00:31.545 Thank you. 00:00:31.545 --> 00:00:41.375 So to start off, can you tell me about your experience with dance as a child and adolescent and where you got your passion for dance? 00:00:41.375 --> 00:00:47.495 Great, thank you. And first, I'd like to begin by also thanking you so much for the opportunity to share my story, and it's really truly an honor in this moment of my life to have this interview. 00:00:47.495 --> 00:00:49.638 Absolutely. 00:00:49.638 --> 00:00:54.228 Thank you so much. 00:00:54.228 --> 00:00:56.064 You're welcome. 00:00:56.064 --> 00:01:30.356 My childhood story began with dance. So I've been dancing--I'm a lifelong dancer. And I began dancing as a kid. And very young. My mom, there was, we lived on the end of a street, and there was a summer creative dance program. I must have been two or three. I don't have the exact date from my mom. And that's where I fell in love with dance. I have some little picture somewhere stored away with me like in some kind of end of something performance. But it was on the playground, and it was outdoors,and that's where my dance career began. Dance for me--should I just ramble? Is that good? 00:01:30.356 --> 00:01:34.752 Yeah. 00:01:34.752 --> 00:05:45.834 Dance for me was always a sense of a place for me to belong and I'll say survive. I was very supported to go to dance through my whole childhood, but we were a middle class family, and so I relied on scholarships, I usually got them. I was seriously into dance. So I danced until I was probably in seventh grade, No, maybe sixth grade, like twice a week. And then I got into a dance company, and I had a child's part in the Connecticut Ballet, regional Ballet Company. So very early on was I in a very kind of intergenerational environment, and you'll hear through this interview that that's really important to my work and maturing as a still as a performing artist. So it was really, uh, that was like a turning point for me to be in that company. But it was also a time in my life where I had been studying ballet where--my body started to change and I knew that, and then peer pressure and things like high school and things like that. So I changed to modern dance and jazz. So at the time, jazz dance was really predominant. So that's my, just my, like, early days. But I think I'm really not getting to the heart of it with my mom, because my mom really shuttled me back and forth. She was a nurse and, uh, full time, so I had a lot of chores at home to do and things like that. But I always knew that after the chores, my mother was coming home from work and basically going back to the same neighborhood. And so, yeah, it was a really important time for me. My brothers were very into sports and at the time we didn't have Title IX, and I was not encouraged to do sports. I think I probably would've been a good athlete, actually, but I wasn't really invited or included. So dance was really a natural place for me to be physical. But I loved going to dance class. I loved--in the ballet--I was in a ballet conservatory. It was called the Hartford Conservatory. Again, I was one of the young ones there. And there was a live pianist. His name was Julius. And I just remember just loving going there. And I had two older brothers, and it was really, it wasn't a great home environment. My brothers were pretty rough on me to put it lightly. So going to dance was always a place for me to just go and be. And I had really, really good training. I have to be--I'm so grateful that I landed in those places because my teachers were very supportive, but they were also slow with me. They were like--I was called Little K--Little K, we're not putting you on point shoes yet because your ankles aren't strong enough. So I actually had really, really, really good training. So I'm very--I'm very, very grateful for that. My mom, later in life, showed me a letter that they were encouraging me to go to a performing arts high school, and my mother didn't want me to go. And it was after I got my PhD and a career in dance that she said, You know, I need to--it was like she needed to make amends. So she showed me the letter from the Hartford Conservatory encouraging my mother to put me in a professional program, but she didn't. So, but that's interesting. So I don't know where my career would've went at that time. But I stayed in. So, my time with dance was--but I was very, very shy, I have to say. So I grew into not being shy as I got older, but as a kid I was a very shy, and so people asked me to dance in front of them. I'd always be like, no, I--it's like I didn't, I wasn't one of those kids who would be like, get up on the table or get up in front of grandma and grandpa and show them what you do. So I was very, very shy as a kid. So dance was a place where I-- and performance was a place for me to go. Yeah. I could go on and on about that, but. 00:05:45.834 --> 00:06:22.134 Well, maybe it'll come up in some questions. Okay. So you have substantial formal education. You earned a BA in Dance and Literature at UMass Amherst, and an equivalent degree in experimental dance at the European Dance Development Center in the Netherlands, and also your PhD in Critical Dance Studies at UC Riverside. And please fill in anything that I missed. How did your formal education impact who you are as a professional? 00:06:22.134 --> 00:14:14.595 So I only applied to three schools for undergraduate, and it was not a given, but pretty much where I grew up in a very middle class family that I would go to college. I didn't get into Cornell. That was my first choice. I didn't know how I was gonna afford that anyway. And then University of Connecticut was my backup, but they didn't have a dance program, so I didn't really want to go there, but my parents encouraged me. And at the time, there was this five-hour radius of driving, like, it was very strict where we were gonna apply back then. And I was on my own, actually, my grandmother was very ill, and my grandparents had moved from Brooklyn to be next to my mom. So I got into a dance major program at University of Massachusetts, and it's a very good program. They had something called the Five College Dance Program, which is part of a consortium with Smith College, Hampshire College, Mount Holyoke, and Amherst. So I got to pay, it was still outta state, Massachusetts, but got to take advantage of the five college dance program. But even finishing my first year, I was like, something's wrong here. I didn't really like the dance program. It was very competitive. And even though I didn't have any issues with what they thought would maybe be too much weight in the wrong places or anything, they were very critical of other dancers. And I knew right at that age that I wasn't really jiving with that program. Though I was even teaching my first year 'cause I was very advanced. So they gave me the work study teaching, like for the university. So I kind of gave up that opportunity, and I dropped out of the dance program, and I did what was called a bachelor's degree with an independent concentration. So I did dance and literature. So I always continued dancing, but I took all of my dance classes in the five college area. So I kind of got this semi Ivy League or alternative school 'cause Hampshire is a very alternative education. And then I took other classes at UMass, but UMass just opened my eyes up to many things. I did musical theater there and, but my dance and literature was really, really important because I did a lot of, what we called then, well, was--it was UMass had one of the first women's studies programs. So I did a lot of women's literature and I did, I learned about feminism, I was like, this was like my awakening. Yeah. I took a lot of what we call then third-world women's writing and literature courses. So I'm not from the third world, but we don't even use that phrasing anymore. But UMass was in the forefront of politics in the body at the time. So, it's interesting how that became, came back and around. So I had a great education there. I did take what we call now a gap year at the time 'cause I needed to get out into the world. And then I went, I lived in San Francisco for a while and then I knew I wanted to live overseas or go overseas, but I didn't wanna be a tourist. So I got in--there was no internet or anything then. So I was studying in San Francisco with Joe Good in a summer workshop. And this woman who's now well known in New York, Sarah (now I show my absent mind). Sarah Mickelson said, you should go here. She was British. and so there was a school in Holland, and they take two guests a year, and they accepted me with like my CV and a cover letter and a letter of recommendation. And I had no money. My parents were not supporting me at all in this phase of my life. I was waitressing in San Francisco and doing dictation. I worked on the first little Mac box. And I got a loan--I think I'll share this--from the Hebrew Free Loan Association. They gave me $2,000 up front, but I had to pay, start paying back $50 a month. And off I went to Europe, and I paid my tuition. And so I had like, I don't know, I had only like $500 left in my pocket, and I went to the school in Holland. And that basically just changed my life. So it was very alternative. And it was very much based in improvisation, but many of the teachers were coming from either England or the United States, from New York. So it was kind of the New York, the downtown scene, all of the people who were working with somatics in the body. So really doing deep research in terms of inner sensation and anatomical release it was called. So it was a very particular kind of dancing. And I was just like, I would just, I was just mind blown. I would stand there in the studio and somebody would do a performance where they would just take ten minutes to raise their arms. And it was the most beautiful thing I ever saw in my life. I was like, okay, what is this? And then the school split. They opened a new school in the town called Arnhem, and I went to Arnhem, and I spent two years there. And I had an amazing experience there with many amazing artists that I'm still, some of them I'm still in touch with. And I've curated, actually, here at the school and in summer arts. And so I went to there, changed my life. And then I got a job teaching in Germany before Germany had master's degrees in dance. And I worked in a conservatory environment there in a clown and dance school, So I taught at a clown and dance school for three years. And that was a great experience. But at the time I was involved with someone. I had to make a decision. So I decided to move to California. And, I was, What am I gonna' do here? And that's a longer story, but there was a brand-new program that I was thinking about getting a master's, but because I became so open to this other way of dancing, there was really no master's programs at the time that I was interested in, except maybe in New York. And I was like, Well, I live in California now. But there was a brand-new program at UC Riverside. It was the third year, and it was one of the very, among the very first top three universities that gave a PhD in dance. And so when I saw the poster in the back of one of these magazines called Contact Quarterly is how I found out about it, I was like, Oh, wow. So I went and I sat in on a few seminars and I was like, I wanna go there. So I applied. And so then I went to UC, Riverside. And it's really a groundbreaking program in terms of dance studies, the field of dance studies, which is different than just getting a degree in dance. Yeah. Dance studies is really about the political, social, and cultural impact and of the body and dance in the world. So that's what I did. And then I have one more education that I did that's very extensive called the Feldenkrais Method. So thank you to this university who partially funded that education. Yes. It's a four-year program, and it's based on the somatic educational method. And it's based on research of someone named Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais, and he was part of the human development generation. Yeah. He was also born the same year as my grandfather in the Ukraine, which was interesting. But he had a knee injury. He was one of the first white people, men, white men, to learn judo. And he learned judo, and he brought a lot of Eastern philosophy into this body modality. So it's not a dance training, it's really about finding ease in your own movement. So I still do that now. I bring that into all I do. And so I have, those are my key big degrees. 00:14:14.595 --> 00:14:34.754 So following up on that your focus for your career for the last several decades has been on somatics, perceptual improvisation, contact improvisation, and performance and cultural theory. Can you tell me a little bit more about these areas of focus? 00:14:34.754 --> 00:18:27.000 Yes. So you had somatic, perceptual improvisation, cultural theory, and contact improvisation? Yeah. So a somatic approach to dance, or the body, has to do with more about feeling than how it looks. It's really about inner sensation and really getting in touch with oneself on a very cellular level, if I can speak that way. It's more about embodied and lived experience and of course, that has cultural and impact culturally and through people's cultural history and ancestry. But it--and it really includes this very sensorial based way of dancing and through the world. So it's not about how it looks like, for example, like ballet where you have to look a certain way or something, but really about an inner sensorial world that brings forward the dance or the healing or whatever. So it's, it's an ancient way of being with oneself before we had technologies and things like that. So that's the somatic piece. Is that clear kind of? It is? And then perceptual improvisation really has to do with, again, responding to the conditions. So it's a little bit more related to the visual art world. And one of my areas that I researched, well, probably since I'm a kid, but is visual art. And I also studied--I took Harvard summer school one summer way, way back when, and I did video when it was a three-quarter inch and you sit down (unintelligible). So I did some--I've studied some videos. So I'm, it's really about--how do I explain perception improvisation on an interview like this? Let's see. Something about how do we, how do we perceive the world? So it's, it really does relate a lot to visual arts in terms of perspective and visual field and responding, but could be your auditory field as well. So it's related to somatics in that way. It also is really, really related to Eastern thought, which is about inner perception and meditation and things like that. So I've cultivated a more contemplative way of approaching dance as well. Yeah. It comes from, I wouldn't say I am a Buddhist or anything like that, but I've studied Eastern philosophy. I've done a little bit of martial arts, just a little bit. So I've kind of come at it with that. And then cultural theory is dance and cultural studies. Dance studies is really a blend of dance and the field of cultural studies. So we're really looking about diversity in dance, and we're considering not just a European perspective of dance, which becomes very stereotypical. And so it's changed so much then. But it's really the dance studies field really emerged out of celebrating and analyzing, honoring the histories and practices of diverse cultures across the world. I mean, there's so many dance dialects that around the world. So dance studies really opened my eyes up to how big the world of dance is and how much of an impact it has politically and socially on our identity and things like that. So everything we learn about dance can be applied to (unintelligible). Dance studies can be applied to any field, really, in my opinion, because it has so much to do with the politics of the body. Yeah. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:28.000 That's really interesting. 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:35.444 Yeah. Yeah. And I bring that here to Cal State. 00:18:35.444 --> 00:18:43.535 So how have your areas of focus benefited your students? Many students over the years? 00:18:43.535 --> 00:23:12.493 Well, and I did talk about contact, so I'll bring that back 'cause that's what my area of research was about. I think I should say something about contact now. Is that okay? So my PhD was based on contact improvisation, which is, brings together all of those other practices--somatics, perceptual improvisation, dance technique, and then cultural studies. So I was looking at something that emerged from the fifties and sixties, which was a huge art movement in New York and really influenced a lot of people. And it was based on gravity and momentum and touch. So contact improvisation. My dissertation was really also a lot about touch and how contact improvisation, which is a touch-based dance form. It's like what happens when two bodies move together? And with gravity and momentum? Now we do this, people do this, not me, in tango, in salsa, and all sorts of dance traditions around the world. But contact has a particular aesthetic. And so it might look like something, but it's so much based in sensorial awareness. So this was--has been--a big part of my life is contact improvisation. And so--but contact improvisation sometimes universalizes this idea of what the body is. So my dissertation also took that apart and down a bit that said, No, this is very particular as a particular way of moving. It's not universal. Not everybody does it, you know, things like that. So anyway, it's a longer discussion, but I bring all of that into San Marcos when I--CSUSM--when I came here there was no program. And so it was clear to me that I was starting in a very challenging place but also really exciting place. One of the reasons I took the job here--I got an offer at a school that was already established as well. Because dance, dance for here, the byline here is that dance is for everybody and every body. And that this would be an inclusive environment and that this would be an environment that welcomes all students. So it would not be conservatory driven or even wanting to go in that direction. Even though we would be working on our technique, on our awareness--we would use words like awareness rather than virtuosity. You know, virtuosity is great, but would be more about awareness. So it's a very inclusive environment. And I think I was highly successful at that. And that is actually happening. So I think that's the biggest thing. But the students always are like, it's really different here. When people come to visit or high schools come always like, oh, it's really different here because it's really about community and there's a lot of support. We don't just dance. We talk about where we're at. We take a weather report. What's going on? One word, you know, everybody share a word. How do you feel today? We talk about access needs. We don't make assumptions in the class that everybody's gonna do everything. So there's a lot of that. So it's really with what my friend, Anya Cloud, collaborator, brought the phras--she was a lecturer here for nine years--"Dancing with the body you have." So yeah, no assumptions. No assumptions. Yeah. And also adaptability. access needs, cultural backgrounds, what's going on in the world. We don't ignore, we don't go, you may get a great escape in a dance class, but dance studies is not about this dream. that dance helps me escape the world. It's basically the opposite. It's really about grounding in the reality and what am I dealing with and what are the conditions right here and now? So I've cultivated those kinds of values here. And then the other big thing is because I went to Riverside, early on I brought in that students need to relate whatever we're learning in the class. almost every, and almost--not all classes, but many classes are like--how do you relate this to your major or something you care about in the world? Because dance is always in dialogue. We're always in relationship to the world. 00:23:12.493 --> 00:23:14.733 That's really, it sounds very unique. 00:23:14.733 --> 00:23:28.015 Yes, it is. (laughter) It's a unique program that that emerged. And, um, yeah, see where it goes, too, so I'm hopeful. 00:23:28.015 --> 00:23:35.375 So what has scholarship and creative activity looked like in your career as a professor of dance? 00:23:35.375 --> 00:24:20.000 Um, in my career? Or just, what was, can you repeat the question? I'm sorry. I was looking at my note up before that. I just said at the end, I wrote myself a little note about my area of focus. "It's fun and entertaining, but it's also much more than that." I talk to students. First of all, it's more than just the steps. We're not gonna just learn phrases in here and look in the mirror. I wanna add that students freak out 'cause in many classes we're like, let's close the curtains. Like, we don't always have to--and that's the somatic aspect, okay, is can you feel this movement? Why are you staring at yourself in the mirror? The mirrors can be very helpful, but, so I just wanted to sort of add that. 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:33.743 So the, the question, the question was, as a professor of dance, what does scholarship and creative activity look like to you? 00:24:33.743 --> 00:24:36.664 Oh. 00:24:36.664 --> 00:24:47.233 And, and one, so in your CV, you also give example, a lot of examples of curated performance processes.And so are those things related? 00:24:47.233 --> 00:29:24.000 They are, for me, but in terms of teaching, I think it relates again to students who find--for our students here--is to find the connection of what dance does for the world and how it is universal. And if it's not, it's because it's being policed, right? By a government that won't allow dance. And like, where are we going now? So the scholarship in dance is about the awareness of what the body can do, like in music or visual art. You know, like we have art history, but we only have dance historians that take it really seriously. And there's tons of books now about dance. But in terms of curation, that's like a separate thing. Yeah. So my own scholarship has been that I've done a lot around--writing about contact improvisation and presenting on that. But I often combine my creative projects with political and historical research. So, for example, a project that was before--that I didn't curate, that I was invited on was like a European project based on a fictional choreographer named Veronika Blumstein. So I ended up spending like two years on that. And then she comes back every now and then, came back during COVID. I was like, okay. Somebody invited me 'cause they were interested in my work with Veronica. And so these Polish and German artists and one person from Slovenia came together in a research project. And they didn't know what to do. And for some reason, at the time, the zeitgeist at the time was a really, like a lot around healing in terms of World War II and the European Holocaust and genocide there. And so, and then the Polish people were so impacted by the war in another way. So this opened up a huge pot of research for me by looking into Veronika Blumstein. And I lived in Europe, but I had never gone into some of my own personal roots. And so I did a lot of ancestral work at the time. And then through that project many things came up because they wrote a fictional--they wrote about a fictional character who happened to be a Jewish woman who escaped and went to New York and studied with all these people that were like part of my own dance lineage. So it became a lineage project. So in that way, I was like weaving together all of these different things. Now, like curation is kind of, I'm, it happens globally, but I know it because I've spent so much time in Europe, like this kind of careful 'cause curation--because they have different funding sources. So in the US, our, the field of dance curation has grown so much and it's--there's so many amazing people doing great projects. But my work in curation, well, I just recently did this Think Gravity Project, which we'll talk about. But I did a big project called the Live Legacy Project. And so I was invited by a former classmate of mine from the school I went to in Holland Center for New Dance Development, which became European Dance Development Center. And we did a whole cultural history on how dance migrated from US and Ukraine, uh, Ukraine--US and the UK through the Dutch school into Germany. So she was living in Germany and the German government gave a huge sum of money to this curation. So we had a symposium that resulted in a film, but we brought together many dance elders and then the younger generation. So it was a big intergenerational project. So we had workshops. So we did everything at the symposium. It wasn't a talking symposium. We had the workshops, intensives alongside the talks, alongside the films. But everybody went to everything. So it wasn't like, I will choose at a conference, it would be like a symposium for a hundred people. And then they came to everything. It was very, very well documented. They all experienced everything together. Yeah. So it's like educational and creative all at once and people got to share their work. Okay. So in that way, like the curation is a way to bring about a living archive. So I'm interested in curation that's very much alive. Does that make sense? 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.222 It does. 00:29:26.222 --> 00:29:35.275 Okay. There's a lot of topics we're we're hitting now, so I hope they're making sense. 00:29:35.275 --> 00:29:47.000 They are. So, you talk, have talked a lot about, you know, previous to this interview about your involvement with Arts and Lectures on campus. 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.809 Yes. 00:29:48.809 --> 00:30:02.505 And so, like a more broad question is what does campus and community service look like in your career over the years? But I know that Arts and Lectures, you know, we talked about as being a substantial-- 00:30:02.505 --> 00:33:42.000 Yes. Well, before I get into Arts and Lectures, what's interesting is I'm flashing now to David Avalos, who was a mentor for me. And, he really helped me when I arrived here, especially with my file, because I, like my service and my scholarship and my teaching all intertwined. And the committees at first didn't really get that. So he had me write this intro and it was really helpful. And so I also share that forward with other people I'm on committees with because it's known now. But even twenty years ago when I was a PhD student, we didn't do a practical PhD. Now there's many practicing dance PhDs. And at the time, one of the most famous godmothers of dance studies, my mentor, Susan Foster, said, Karen, you need to put dancing aside for a while. Get reading, get writing. And I didn't really do that at the time. I still was, I had a very active performing career, and I was curating with a group called Lower Left in San Diego. So it's just like doing way too much. But that's what I did for a large, most of my life. So it's that intertwining of these things that I think is really important. That my service here was always intertwined with my own work in the classroom. Because also, I was performing with students or creating performances with students both at the, in the early years. And it was like, that was my service. I didn't get course release or it wasn't counted as a class, even though I was teaching a class or a project that added another ten hours a week for six to eight weeks. So that's what we do, though. We dance. You gotta make the work. It doesn't fit into a four hour a week class. So my service really got intertwined entwined with dancing. But then I got involved right away because I had been curating in Europe. I had been cur--you know, when I was teaching at the clown school was my first curating. And then I, when I arrived here, I got involved with Bonnie Biggs from the Library, who was running Arts and Lectures, and she invited Mtfiti Imara, Dr. Imara, to do a performance. So that was another big project. He did a--he created a song that was called Power to the People. And I had a group of dancers. It was all extracurricular in our first year. We did a big performance at Center for the Arts in Escondido. It was amazing. And then Bonnie--oh, and then another curatorial thing was happening was Dr. Andrea Liss, who I collaborated with a lot, and Dr. Kristine Diekman. I mean, excuse me. Not Dr. Professor. (Kristine. I love you. You know, it's just as important. what you've done.) Okay. So they were doing a women's rights symposium. So in my second year or my first year--I can't remember, it's in the flyer (points to flyer). It was a really wonderful symposium. So I made a student piece for that, intergenerational. I was on a panel and then I also performed, they invited me. I did this piece in the late nineties called Monster Girl. And it was a very pop piece, feminist piece. And I wore, like, you know, I was standing on a Tide box and doing my soapbox and dancing to Mission Impossible. And it was just like wild. Blue wig-- 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.000 I saw the box up there-- 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:44.882 Oh yeah. Blue wig. Oh-- 00:33:44.882 --> 00:33:45.617 --that says Monster Girl. 00:33:45.617 --> 00:36:43.000 Oh yeah. It has the handcuffs in it, too. I mean, it was just like this kind of rant about women's rights. And so they knew I did the piece. Kristine had actually seen it at Sushi Performance and Visual Arts in '98. So they invited me to perform that. So I kind of came off and running, like performing, early on a lot. I performed a lot less as the years grew on, and I became more administratively driven. So yeah, so that was a curatorial piece. And then Meryl Goldberg picked up Arts and Lectures, and I was on the committee when she was interim. And then she got started in Center ARTES, so I came on and that was a big part of my service for the University. I worked with Marilyn Huerta for many years and for about--I think I was running it for five years. I used to call myself the unofficial Director 'cause they didn't give me that position. That's what--didn't really didn't compensate me. It was just my service, but I can tell you it was more than nine hours a week. And we did between thirty-nine and forty-two events a year for many years. And even the language that's on the website, I'm like, maybe you should update it. No offense (no shade there, Gina, or the committee). Hey, if it's still working, I'm honored. You know, Meryl also came up with some of those, uh, invoke, inspire. So, but I really brought so many performances to this campus. I mean, Dance has always done at least two a year, but I could tell you this year, we got an IRA grant this school year. We did, I don't know, but there must have been--but I have other faculty working with me. So, but Dance Studies probably hosted at least twelve major public events open to the public. So a lot. So it's big. And then my other service to the campus was, I mean, I created the program. I wrote twenty-eight courses. Of course, they're not all offered. There wasn't any, there was a, few courses on the books, and I did keep one called Global Modern Dance, which I think is very sophisticated. Don Funes wrote that when he founded the program. And, I mean, I guess you probably have knew, you already know the history of this program. It started off as an interdisciplinary program, and then there was the desire to branch out into our own disciplines. But there's always been a desire to work cross-disciplinary and interdisciplinary. and Dance always does. We work with theater, we've worked with visual art, we've worked with literature and writing, we've worked with women's studies, we've worked with theater. And so I've done many projects with all of the faculty. I was actually hired as a collaborator that wasn't going--the job description was to be a collaborator. Even though it was for somebody in dance, was to be a collaborator. So I did that. I definitely did that. 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:44.000 Yeah, you did. 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:48.264 Yeah. Am I talking too fast, also? 00:36:48.264 --> 00:36:50.815 I think that you are doing just fine. 00:36:50.815 --> 00:36:55.025 Okay, great. Okay. It's a lot. 00:36:55.025 --> 00:37:13.000 Okay. So you've done a substantial amount of international work, and you talked about your desire to live overseas and not be a tourist. And--but how has that work outside of the United States contributed to your development in the field? And you've already kind of touched on this. But if there's anything else you'd like to say. 00:37:13.000 --> 00:40:30.235 Well, to lift up our campus with the, especially with what's going on right now in the world i--the goal is for us to be global citizens. Isn't that part of our mission still? And so learning about other cultures and living elsewhere gives one that lived experience of intercultural exchange, opens your world perspective. It demands one to be flexible and adaptable. I'm open to new ideas. So it's really enriched my life a lot. And it's given me a lot of empathy, compassion, inspiration, all of those things for ways of being in the world. And, I mean, I've primarily worked in Europe, but I've also--I've been to Mexico a few times on some big projects. And those were really, really wonderful experiences. And because our campus is in, you know, our demographic is so Latinx, that it's really important for me to have firsthand experiences there. So I've traveled personally there, but I've also done artistic project projects there. And it's been an incredible experience. Most recently, I went to Pachuca with Kristine Diekman. And we did an incredible project with sound and movement and electronic art. It was really amazing. So that was so great. And it was based on Day of the Dead. And even though I'm not from that culture, people are super open, and I learned so much at the time. And in fact, my mom had just passed, and so they were like--there were ofrendas everywhere. It was very meaningful for me. I got to learn a lot. So it's like just stepping out of one's, where one's from, you know. So yeah. I mean, I think it's super important and I--really sad to hear that programs like that are in jeopardy right now in our country. 'Cause it's like huge. It's a win-win for everybody. So, but yeah, I've had really amazing experiences overseas. I mean, the school I went to in Holland, we were seventy students from twenty-three countries. So it was on one hand chaotic. But on the other hand, we were from a lot of different cultures, but our language was dance. So we were really in the room together and just, and, you know, there was a lot of nonverbal relational experiences. And so that's where dance comes in as its own language. And it's not a universal language, even though we all have, you know, not all, but many of us, or most of us who are fortunate enough to have our four limbs and or five limbs if you count your spine and your whatever, you know, count many, many limbs. But it was, it was a life changing experience for me. And I had traveled one year. I had traveled in my gap year as well, too. So it was an experience. Yeah. Very big travels (unintelligible). 00:40:30.235 --> 00:40:56.255 Okay. So now turning in earnest to your time at CSUSM--you've been a faculty member on campus for twenty-four years. You already talked about what brought you to CSUSM, but what has been the evolution of CSUSM for you and your time here? For example, what did dance on the campus look like in 2001 compared to now? 00:40:56.255 --> 00:42:50.000 Okay. Yeah. Like I mentioned, I had another offer in Idaho. I mean, I had a lot of interviews, so I was very fortunate for that. I got two offers, and it was kind of like no brainer. It was like, ah, this is just opening. There's so much potential. There were a few courses on the books and they were taught by a lecturer named Terry Sprig, to honor her. She's a dance artist, local. I don't know if she's making work still. So she taught a few classes, but I don't even know to the extent. But as soon as I came in, they gave us, it was, days were different. They were like, okay, you have ten days--they don't tell you us before you get hired--you have ten days to get the courses you want to teach on the books. We're gonna be fast tracking those in in UCC (University Curriculum Committee). I'm like, okay, I don't even know what it's called then. So I wrote some quick courses, and one of the courses I wrote was Women in Performance: Choreographies of Resistance 'cause that really came out of my research and my dissertation. And I did a lot of work on circus when I was in grad school. Even though I did contact improvisation, I did a lot of work on physical culture, the turn of the century, the turn of the 19th to the 20th century. So I got to put that class on the books. I put on a technique class and--but there was like, there was only like three classes. One was Global Modern Dance, which we kept, or was it Cultures in Motion? There was a few. Cultures in Motion we kept, too. Upper division general ed. And then, you know, Bill Bradbury was the chair, and he was like, you need an intro course, so write it. So we like--literally, I'm teaching three courses and then I had to write-- 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000 --this curriculum. All this curriculum. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:49:49.000 Yeah. Yeah. So it was a lot. But now it's, now it's really challenging. It's great. We don't get a lot of allocations because of how the students have a shopping cart and how they, how they go through the system. 'Cause we're still a Dance minor. So when I got here, there were only a couple of classes on the books. And I was offered the opportunity within the first ten days, faculty when we arrived, you jump in, you teach your three courses and you get on a committee and then we'd like you to write the courses you'd like to teach in the next ten days. I'm like, okay. So I did that. I know that one of the courses I wrote was called Women in Performance: Choreographies or Resistance 'cause I was really fresh outta graduate school. This was my research of feminism and performance. And so I taught that class for like twelve years. Really exciting. And it became a general--upper division general ed class. And I'm looking forward to teaching it when I come back FERPing (Faculty Early Retirement Program) actually, 'cause I haven't taught it for a while. And then I put technique classes on the books, and then we all were putting in these intro classes. So I put an Intro to Dance class on the books. I think at that time, it might have been a year or two later. It's hard to remember, but I wrote twenty-eight classes over time.mI am grateful to the Dean's office when Michael McDuffie was there and Ranjita Basu, and Michael gave me great advice on how to create curriculum that would satisfy many things. So I had a lot of topics courses at the beginning and things like that. So, I've also--one of the most popular classes--the program has grown in just so many ways. So we were just me. And then there were me one lecturer. And then at one point there were me and like five or six lecturers. And then it was down to just me and like two lecturers, you know, with the ups and downs of the, of our economy. And now we are just--it's been a wonderful group of people. We're five people. In fact, two of them are, one of them just got their PhD as well from UC Riverside. And another one is getting their PhD, Cuauhtemoc Peranda. And Dava Hernandez just got her degree too. So, and then we have Nhu Nguyen and we have finally got a new hire because that was supposed to be related to the development of our own major. And so after many years, Dance got another tenure track line. And so I'm working with Cheri Hill, doing great job and will be the next leader of Dance Studies. I'm really excited about that. Sheri comes with a lot of experience as a teaching artist, and she's worked in the field of arts and ed and dance and education. So before she came, I had already been working with Liberal Studies and Meryl Goldberg on creating a class that would feed Liberal Studies. So we do actually six courses a year that feed Liberal Studies. So that's great. But it's also, we are losing some of our allocations. So it's hard, but it's great. It's great for the field, it's great for the students. And I'm really excited about the way that's really grown. The other area of the program that's grown is like, the diversity of the kinds of classes we wrote, that I wrote, over the years. So I really tried to--we're not doing, like--we're not doing ballet, modern, and jazz, you know. We had hip hop. It declined. We're gonna have--Cheri just wrote a new course. We're gonna have a wonderful new intro to hip hop class coming on that's related to, it's called Hip Hop Fundamentals. So it'll really meet the criteria of general ed. And then we will learn about the history of hip hop and alongside the commercial aspects so, and the very, the strong politics of the field. So we're really doing a lot. And then I'm really proud of a class that I co-wrote called Contemporary Folklorico. So that course has been on the books for almost ten years now. And I wrote it with Alfonso Cervera, and he was a student over at UC Riverside as well, and now is teaching at Ohio State. Amazing job. Amazing leader in dance in terms of Latinx work. And so that class is one of our most popular classes. We teach five or six sections a year, too. And I'm really proud of that because it really meets our demographic here and serving our Hispanic service--our Hispanic learning institution goals. So I just think it's very important that dance just stays--it's an alive field. So it's also, it's not the course--like there were other institutions where you might go work and they would--at least 20 years ago--they would just hand you the book and they're like, here, teach this dance appreciation class. But I've always been like, no, you teach what you know, I'm gonna trust that you're gonna teach some breadth. So when I hire faculty, I make sure that they can teach the breadth of the field and touch on many things, but they can really focus in on their, on their areas of research. So Cuauhtemoc, for example, is really--their p PhD is on voguing. And so they're really teaching the students like the history of voguing, the roots of voguing, the political significance of voguing. And so it touches on a lot of different things in terms of sociology and political science and history. And so we do all of that. So all of the dance classes have built in a practice-theory component. So there's always something, whether it's just a project that's embodied--so the students step out outside of the box and have to do something physically--that you know, that they're able to do. So it's a very active learning environment in Dance Studies. And that's really different here. And I think school--other schools have grown into that, but I was able to start that off at the ground. And so I'm actually really proud of that. This program really fosters that way of learning. So we're not just like watching a movie, we're gonna, at some point you're gonna get up and either make a movie or do a documentary and step into what the work is. Yeah, so we're moving towards a major. Unfortunately it didn't pass UCC, and Cheri is leading that and I'm working with Cheri on that. And we're looking at it as really like a degree that meets many branches of the field. So we still wanna' be creating and nurturing those that wanna' be dance makers. We're also meeting the field of arts and education, integrative arts and learning, and also social justice. So, we could say that word (unintelligible). Social justice. 00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:50.835 Absolutely. 00:49:50.835 --> 00:49:55.625 Yes. All of those things are a threat today, so-- 00:49:55.625 --> 00:49:55.848 Yeah, of course. 00:49:55.848 --> 00:52:55.000 But that's what we do. And you know I will say like every course that got passed here has the word diversity in it because that's what we do in dance. Dance is a diverse field. And even though I'm a white woman, I mean, from the beginning I always started with Black dance in America because when I taught lower division general ed, because our country is built upon the history of African people. So, dance is so infused with the migrant experience from so many different cultures. So, and then over the years, we have done a few things with American Indian Studies as well. So we're, we're working, we're working it here on our campus. We do a lot of outreach. So whoever we're bringing in is working that way. It's very integrative. So just this semester I'm really proud of a project. Can I say a little bit more about that? In terms of curriculum? So, I always brought guest artists here. And because it's really important for students to meet people working in the field outside of the institution--even though I am working outside of the institution in the summers and in general with my research. But, so I've always brought in guest artists through Arts and Lectures but also through Dance Studies through grants and things like that. So we started off with a very small lab budget, and it's grown. So I have a little line item to bring in guest choreographers. So I've brought in some amazing people. Many of them my teachers. And so those projects really influence the curriculum. So even though we might offer a choreography class, students can take it three times because it'll be different every time. Yeah. And this year, we brought Dancing Through Prison Walls, and it was just a very profound experience. So, I got a nice grant from IRA (Instructionally Related Activities fund) and Arts and Lecturers, and they came, and we did a residency. So again, in terms of like the hours with dance--and I my offer students alternatives if they're working and they can't make it--but they, I always, for the last, before COVID, there were three years and, yeah, three years of artist residency projects. So artists would come and they would either stay with me or friends, or last year we got a little grant money, they could get their own Airbnb. But I put up several artists over the years and they'd make a piece with students and they would leave and then either I or another faculty member would nurture that. And Anya Cloud and I did that for several years together. We did that for three years, where artists would come for a week and then they would leave and then we would rehearse and nurture the piece all the way through the spring dance concert. So yeah. The spring dance concert is our culminating event. Yeah. It's amazing. Very big event. Did I answer your question? 00:52:55.000 --> 00:53:30.304 You did. Okay. So this is a little bit more general, but ,it sounds like, from what you've talked about and your history, that you could have chosen different paths when it comes to dance. Different career paths in terms of what you did with that. Or even back to the high school, right? Like what would've happened if you had gone to the performing arts high school? But you chose a career in higher education. How has that lived up to your expectations? 00:53:30.304 --> 01:03:00.324 Wow. Good question. I have to say I'm super grateful because at least in the U.S., there's not very many jobs in dance. I'm extremely grateful to have a salaried position in the beginning, a pension. So I don't take that lightly. And, yeah. That's big. And there's not that many jobs in dance and higher education. So I feel very, very fortunate that I got this job as well. And that's why when I got it, I mean, I take it very, very seriously. There's a lot of work to be done in the field. And this--I don't even like the word fighters--but everybody working in dance and higher education is, we're fighting for it all 'cause the resources are less and less, unless you're in certain institutions. But it's a lot. It's a lot of work. So I worked really hard, I realized. My mom used to even say--'cause I, when I was chair also of VPA (Visual and Performing Arts) for a year and a half, almost two years. Interim chair. And I would go see my parents on spring break 'cause they're from the East coast. And so I'd bring my computer and my mother would be like, You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. So, yeah, I mean I worked a lot. I worked way more than forty hours a week in this job, like way more. And I don't have any regrets. I'm a little tired, maybe, but I know I'll refuel. Hence retiring a little sooner than I thought I was going to. 'Cause we'll probably get to that question, I imagine. Somewhere along the way. But, you know, our campus has grown a lot, but we all in the School of Arts are working hard. You know, we, how do I say this? Lots of gratitude, but we've all, you know, we've all talked about how we need space, how we need a theater. Our university has grown to a size that we're really ready for--I'm not so fixed on dance has to be in a theater. But we do need a place. So I think dance could grow more and could have grown more had we had a space. So we have a beautiful studio that doubles as a black box theater and we share it with Theater. But that's all we have. So, and then we use--Music, Theater, and Dance share the theater, the performance hall that was designed for music. So that's been hard. And so it's like, it gets to be, I used--I don't even use the expression anymore, but for like five, the last five years, I'm like, broken record. Like, we cannot, how, you know, what do you need? Or, you know, if I'm writing with Cheri, the needs that we'll need to have a major, and just because we write we need space doesn't mean that that should halt the major. We have to keep moving forward. But it's that whole what what comes first. It doesn't really work in today's economy, but dance is more important than ever, I believe. And I think the, our SoCal and our nation's culture around dance has changed so much in positive ways. With social media and many things. I'm like, wow. You know, and when I, you know, there was like ten years where people are like, do you watch Dancing With the Stars? When it came out. And I'm kind of like, no you know, like I don't have time to watch that show. Or, you know, like, oh I'm going to the theater this weekend. Because I'm really into promoting for students live art, live dance. Students, when they go and see a show here, they've never been--so many students.have never been to the theater. And it's like, so I really, I'm so grateful for my parents that I had that experience. And again, we weren't, I was from a very working class family, but it was a priority for my parents. And my mom used to take me to Brooklyn College. So I saw like really traditional, amazing Black dance in America throughout the seventies. I mean, my dance education was really opened by having my grandparents in New York and going in and out of New York. And my mother would just take me to these things that I probably would never have seen before. So, I just think the live art experience is really important, and I think our University could be cultivating that more. So that's an expect--that's one criticism. Like we had a President who called it the crown jewel, and it really is, and it could be more of a cultural hub. So that, but otherwise, you know, like I'm super grateful. It took me a long time to get to the pro--dance program. So I worked for fifteen years just doing what a program director does but not compensated for that. I just built the program because what else was I gonna' do? Everybody else was building around me. So I'm like, okay, well build a program. So I kind of floated around a little bit. So I reported to Visual Arts for a while and, but I was still doing the work of being a director. So it's really my--the art. When we sent things up to CAPC (Curriculum and Academic Policy Committee), there was a year that, my colleagues stood up for me and said, It's now time for dance to get a hire. So, to be a program. And then there was the moment where to get a hire--so I was, dance got ranked finally for a hire--but that took like five years once the School of Arts stood behind dance, moving up the line. So there was just many, many years where I was carrying everything. You know, I had a great colleague in Anya Cloud did a lot, and Cherie Hill is doing an amazing job. And all of the lecturers right now are above and beyond. But I also, and I also give them autonomy to do what they want. First of all, I can't do it all on my own anymore, but it's like, in terms of positionality, you know, we're very, we've got a wide spectrum of cultural identities and ethnic identities in our makeup of our program. And that's really important. And so for me, it's like I need to step aside what other people bring, people who they wanna' bring. Even though we always had conversations, I was kind of carrying it. But that now I'm able to find a little pot of money so that they can get a little stipend for curating something that they wanna' bring. So I'm really--contact improvisation at it's heart is about horizontal politics, so I lead with horizontal politics here. And I always have too much information. I send too many emails after the Dean's meeting, even though they're lecturers, I'd send them what's going on because we're, we say we're small and mighty. So in order for the program to grow, let the young people come forward as well. Though I do believe in intergenerational, but I also believe, you know, let the young people come forward. And Cheri is doing and also she's gonna do a great job. And she's already done so much since she's here. So, I trust that it's gonna carry forward. I don't know in what ways, but I'm open to that. You know, and I think I, I believe and have faith that the School of Arts is in full support of Dance. I have great colleagues. I've done many things, but we're all working really hard so--but it's just a great group of people. It always has been. So what was the question? Has CSUSM lived to my exectations? Well, yeah. I would say yes. And yet we know we really, we do need some more space, and I wish we had more allocations 'cause we can't build the min--we can't build the major unless we get the classes. And then you can't get the classes if you can't offer them. And you can't get, you can't offer them if the students don't sign up for them. So there was that moment where the shopping cart card came forward for students. I don't think that was great. I liked when we used to do--it was a lot of work. And even I didn't have a program I used to advise for Visual and Performing Arts. So I would have my own list. You know, the chair would say, Karen, here's your list. You're gonna advise all these people. Okay, what, what do they need to take? You know, they're visual arts students. But these halls used to be full, lined up, you know, when we'd be registering for classes. So you'd get to really meet the students, but then you would ensure that all these classes are gonna be full. But now the students, it's a different climate, but, you know, I can't change the system, so-- 01:03:00.324 --> 01:03:04.231 Bringing on the technology and you know, having-- 01:03:04.231 --> 01:05:40.445 it's great. But it's also, I think students, they need the advice and the opportunity to sit down with not just advising, but here. I think I'm taking a tangent from the--okay. So I hope, I hope that the, I hope that, yeah. I've also, the other thing that I've done with the curriculum that I've been en enabled to do with some amazing colleagues on our campus is create community engagement projects. I didn't really talk about that, but I did a few highlights. I did-- I started the collaboration with A Step Beyond, and our dean is now on the board, a fairly new dean, Dean Leora Gubkin. And for five years I taught a class over there. So, and that really ties into our dance and education pathway that may or may not grow into directly into that, but it's a great opportunity for students. And Meryl is working with Cheri and other faculty on this big arts and education certification. Arts certification project. So we're really in that already. And then I've gotten a few students jobs over at A Step Beyond. And so that was great. And I worked with Community Engagement. I got a little stipend at one point to work with them and create a course that was specific to working with them called Dance in the Community. That was inspired by Kristine Diekman as well. She did a big video in the community project for many years that always inspired me. She made public service announcements with like, so many underserved communities in our area. And so she's always been like, how do you do that? So she, she lit the way for me, so I wanna' acknowledge her also in this interview. So there was that. And then I did, I worked with Veronica Anover and worked at the Glenner Town Center, which is an Alzheimer's day center. And we did a whole project there. And then I did another fundraiser over at the Conrad Prebys theater in La Jolla. So I've done a few big community projects. I worked with the Museum of--it was called Museum of Man then--at Balboa Park. And I worked with Judy Bauerlein, and we brought guest artists there, and we did big project there. So I think those kinds of experiences for students are so important. 01:05:40.445 --> 01:05:45.172 Yeah. And a lot of like community feelers and outreach. 01:05:45.172 --> 01:06:24.000 Yeah. And bringing community to campus, too. I've brought a lot of community to campus 'cause I brought some well-known artists here. So different schools would come here. I worked with NCHEA (North County Higher Education Alliance) as well for like five years in my early days. And we did some really big projects. We brought legendary Donald McKayle here. He was at UC Irvine. He was already in his late seventies, early eighties when he came. I think it was early eighties. And he was the Alvin Aileys teacher. And so we've done, we've done some big things. I'm sure there will be more big things. Yeah. So to our little campus, we've done some big projects. 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:59.605 That's right. Okay. So this is changing gear a bit. Okay so my, the overarching question is what did you do during Covid? But in our pre-interview you mentioned, you talked about the double pandemic and that the Covid-19 virus increased awareness of systemic racism. So the question really is what did you do during Covid? When we were all kind of locked inside-- 01:06:59.605 --> 01:14:20.635 Well, I did a lot during Covid. I--with the rise of Black Lives Matter and the murder of George Floyd, you know, everything stopped in certain ways. And I immediately, you know--for a moment--and then I immediately gathered with other colleagues in School of Arts, a few of us, we worked the entire summer to create a series. We got some money from the dean's office through some donors, through the Wagner family. And we used all of that money to program online lectures and performances. So that was like a big project. I don't know. We did at least nine, ten events per semester that was open to whole campus. But we really geared it towards School of art students to get them, to get them going. And it was, at that time during COVID, too, there was a HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) project that I worked that Mtifiti Imara invited me to be part of. So I worked with a faculty member.So the artist that we worked with was T. Lang. And we also worked with Melicia Taylor, who's become a friend and collaborator Melicia was a lecturer here in Music. So Melicia was also hired. So these are significant Black artists. Melicia is a sound designer and an opera singer. And Melicia came here and brought compositions. And we did a piece with, I think it was my choreography class. It was choreography or improvisation. We did a dance film called I Am, and the students did their own choreographies at home. And then she worked with a filmmaker to sew it together. So we did a film. I brought another artist. We were still in--well we were just opening--Jose Abad from San Francisco, another Black artist. So I brought a lot of--working with a lot of Black artists to campus. I was doing that. like I said, I've been doing that all along. But it was really a focus on that with HBCU--our campus relationship grew with that. Cheri just did that project this year. So yeah, I was really amazed at that. And we worked with students. We came in even though the campus was on lockdown. We got permission to come in and students got to work with some of these choreographers over Zoom and made their own works. So Skyla Miles and Minnie Atkins both made work, both alum from Dance Studies with, during this HBCU project. Also brought, Mayfield Brooks, who was very known in New York and in Europe and South America, and well, globally, for her work with--she calls it improvising while Black. And she has written a lot and did a lot of projects around Black culture and survival and things. So yeah, it was very, very prolifically busy and happening. And then at the same time, I was gearing up for my sabbatical application. And so even though we were in, still in Covid, I wrote my application to do this project called Think Gravity Dance Tank. So that was really involving--it was happening still during Covid. And we had a symposium and it was taking on the 50th anniversary of contact improvisation. So that's my, it was almost a continuation. It's kind of is a continuation of what I wrote about in my PhD in 2001 about contact not being universalist and who writes the history. So we brought forward some less recognized histories. So Ishmael Houston-Jones was my teacher in Holland way back when, in 1990. No, 1989. 1989. That's his brick (points to brick on window sill). He has a very famous bit called White Hope that he dances with this brick and he's danced with a brick internationally. And he's a very well respected artist. So it was a very creative way to do a curatorial project, where we invited four people, and we let them invite four people. And then we brought students. So Anya Cloud got a job at, in Boulder, University of Colorado. So they have a much bigger facility. So we did it there. And we had a week-long symposium, and we called it a reckoning with contact improvisation. And we stepped back 'cause we're both white women and we let everybody else lead. And, but we held the container and things like that. And then from that, we created a film because we had so much stuff. We had interview, we interviewed everybody, and then we had incredible footage. So we made a documentary. That documentary won best documentary at the Toronto Dance Film Festival. So we were happy with that. Or Contact Festival (Contact Dance International Film Festival) was just recently. And we've screened it in a few places, and it's gotten really good feedback. So it's a bit of a reckoning with the history in terms of who's identified 'cause contact improvisation is historicized as very white. Whereas its influences are very much based in African American culture, history and ways of working in jazz music and things like that. In terms of what is a jam, what is it to improvise. And then also there is a history of Eastern Asian American and Asian art influences in terms of what is yielding, what is gravity, what is meditation. So we brought in other voices to speak about cultural histories and positionality in terms of race and culture. So it was really, it was really productive and it was a deep experience. And it was cool 'cause we brought--I got student success funds from here and Anya got some money from her institution. So we involved, we were about twenty-six people, something like that. Between twenty-four and twenty-eight. But half of them were students. So it was really important to bring the future forward. So again, this was another project that really is based in intergenerational community and containers. And I'm really happy 'cause Makisig Akin is Philippinx and they took the model of curation and they did a whole BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) dance festival in Berlin, probably one of the first or of the first. And they used that model of curation and they were really, really excited that, to learn that way of curating. So there's that curating piece of mine, too, that yeah. People, if nobody curates, then you're not gonna' have the work, you know And we're, it's strong to curate one at a time, but it's also strong to curate symposiums that bring people togetherfor some time. Yeah. 01:14:20.635 --> 01:14:32.795 Okay. So do you have work, a work that you've accomplished in your career that has been most impactful in your opinion? 01:14:32.795 --> 01:14:34.704 Impactful on the field or-- 01:14:34.704 --> 01:14:35.805 To you. 01:14:35.805 --> 01:14:42.104 Oh, to me or to the field? 01:14:42.104 --> 01:14:46.305 Or both. 01:14:46.305 --> 01:16:17.000 Well, in terms of my training, my work with Debra Hay affected my perceptual improvisation very greatly. So Deborah Hay is a, still working artist and dance elder. And I studied with her, I saw her perform in Holland, but I wasn't in her class. And then I brought her with this group Lower Left that I worked with for many years in San Diego. So I've dipped in and out of her work. And I'm really proud that I recently got to perform with her in her work at the Getty. It was a re-dance, a recreation of a work from the sixties. So she was a very significant artist that emerged in the sixties. And she's continued to emerge internationally. So she really had a great impact on my career of how I dance. But I think--I don't know, it's such a hard question. I guess--now I'll get a little emotional because I guess creating the program is probably my biggest impact. I mean, it was a lot of work. 01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:19.000 A lot of work. A lot of really important work. 01:16:19.000 --> 01:19:24.505 I hope University continues to support it. I mean, I think it had the greatest impact 'cause I--thousands of students have taken dance classes here. And I'm sure, because you can read it, some of them was whoa, but most of them always write in the evals, I didn't know dance could be like this, or I didn't know--I just can't imagine that we would talk about dance like this, or dance could be this way or this class--even if I'm not teaching it. But creating a program where the people are invited to teach what they love to teach, to teach what they know and but to also really keep bringing in this idea that we're gonna embody the learning. I think San Marcos is unique like that, and I think the way it's open has and its opening, is pretty unique. And, but I guess, you know, I've, and I've done Summer Arts as well, so I've worked within the system and I did six summers with Summer Arts. I did two as an artist. One was during my hire, one was before my hire. And that program is over. It just got closed. 'Cause one of the biggest things the State of California did for the arts was like, oh my gosh. But I think it's, I guess I never really thought about that when you said is there some favorite work? And I was like, favorite, I mean, you know, Think Gravity was enormous. Veronica was enormous. Live Legacy was enormous. You know? I had a big practice in San Diego with people for seven years. We met every Thursday researching dance, and then I'll show you after on the wall. Lower Left was huge part of my life. Holland, Riverside was huge. But I guess the biggest accomplishment or impact, the greatest impact would be I guess this Wow. I never thought about it like that. When I visited, when I was doing, um, the Deborah Hay work--Deborah Hay is friends with Susan Foster, who's the, who I referred to as the godmother of dance studies. I don't know if she'd like that title, but I'll give it to her. She was like--I went to visit her house. She was like, You did it. She, because I think when they took me into that program, I was a bit of a wild card card 'cause they took a lot of scholars. They didn't--at the time wasn't practicing PhD, but I was dancing, like really committed to dancing and performing still. And so I was a bit of a wild card. I didn't get the, I didn't get the scholarship, you know, the first year. I didn't get the teaching the first year. They took me, but they didn't give me the, they didn't give me the scholarship. And, but I was like, I'm gonna do this anyway and see how I like it. And so that, but she looked at me, she's like, You did it. 'Cause you know, I guess I did, right? There's a program here. So time to let it go to the next people. 01:19:24.505 --> 01:19:26.000 Well, that comes to the last question-- 01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:28.000 --the last question, I imagine-- 01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:29.000 which is-- 01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:30.496 now you got me going. 01:19:30.496 --> 01:19:43.234 Oh it's. We want to, we want to get your feelings in there, too. What do you plan to do both personally and professionally in your retirement? 01:19:43.234 --> 01:23:27.185 Well, the first thing I want to do, and I am doing it, is slowing down a bit. I'm coming off of a season of lot of loss, too, a lot of loss of family. So yeah, I wanna' slow down. So I'm gonna slow down this summer and do some organizing. Continue to clean the office a little bit. And also, um, yeah, do some organizing. And then planning for my fall. I'm gonna go to Austria. I've been invited by my mentor, Donna Ray, who's a top-level Feldenkrais teacher. And she runs the institute in Vienna, the training institute. So I'm gonna' go with, there's a brand-new cohort starting. So I rented myself an apartment overlooking some park in Vienna, and it has a beautiful view of a park. And I'll walk through the park every morning and I, I'll be an assistant in the training. That means I'll be working basically. And I'm hoping that will really hone my skills even more so as I transition into retirement, I'm still gonna' be working. I'm not like retiring. So there's a woman who, as a dance legend, there's just many dance legends, you know, who work into their nineties. It's not like you stop. I really think I will always be working in the field in some way. I don't know what that is yet. I would like to curate in a theater, but they don't have those kinds of spaces in San Diego anymore, where you can just have a studio like that where you can. That's one of the things I would, I could imagine. So I'm gonna' do that and I'm gonna' go to visit a former student who's now a well-known Swiss actress and has a wonderful family. So I'm gonna' stay with her and watch her on the big stage and take a walk in the Alps. And then I'm going to do a vocal training. And it something--it's called Roy Hart. And I studied with them in San Francisco, one of their proteges. It's in a long line of lineage from the thirties and forties. And it's a vocal technique that was used in theater, like experimental theater, in the fifties and sixties. But it's also like, I'll use the word therapy. I'm not afraid of that. It's therapeutic as all art can be therapeutic, healing. Like let's transform. That's what we do in the arts, we transform. So I'm going to study some voice. And then when I come back, I'm already invited--there's a, I used to, I put myself through graduate school as a Pilates trainer, even though I'm not certified at Pilates. But I'm gonna bring Feldenkrais into their Pilates studio and do like a little one night a week class. And then, my friend Anya is up for--Anya and Mcsig are up for a big, NEFA, the New England Foundation of the Arts is one of the few funders that give fairly big money in dance in our country. They're a finalist if they get that they're doing an interdisciplinary dance project. And I guess I'll be performing. So that's the goal. The goal is to keep doing yoga, dance, walk, social activism. And I also like to paint and write. 01:23:27.185 --> 01:23:27.965 Wow. 01:23:27.965 --> 01:23:33.154 We'll see. There'll be a little more time for that. Yeah. 01:23:33.154 --> 01:23:36.994 I love that. You're gonna keep busy. 01:23:36.994 --> 01:23:41.045 Yeah, I'll be busy, but I've also, this summer, I'm gonna slow it down. 01:23:41.045 --> 01:23:51.000 And that's really good, too. So is there anything else you'd like to talk about in this interview? 01:23:51.000 --> 01:25:41.064 I think what I would like to do though is we talked about taking a few photos. And I'm really happy--I guess what I'll say is that I'm really happy that the University's interested in this interview and maybe scanning some of the posters and all things that were presented. Maybe they can even use it to use it as fuel to get a theater or a bigger production venue. Or, or a unit that would like to take care of some of these things so that faculty don't have to do all that work, But I also, I guess I wanna' really honor the founding faculty. Maybe just take a moment. I could close with that. Everybody worked really hard, and I'm really honored to have been part of the upstart. And I hope and believe that our campus will keep on during whatever's going on in the world. And I really hope that the arts can really stay strong here. Yeah. I think we are such an incredible group of artists in the School of Arts, so I just wanna' wish everybody well and to keep on. And I really, I hope that students will--and faculty and committees and the administration will--see really the value of what Dance does. 'Cause dance is really, plays a big role in the world. And like I said, it can be a lot of fun, but it goes way deeper than that. 01:25:41.064 --> 01:25:57.645 Well, that's a really great note to end on. Yeah. Thank you. And I just want to thank you for allowing us to celebrate you and your career and every, all the hard work that you've done all of this time. And I know there's a lot more to come for you, but kind of at this milestone-- 01:25:57.645 --> 01:25:58.354 Thank you. 01:25:58.354 --> 01:26:01.805 --you know, moment for you. Just thank you for sharing with us. 01:26:01.805 --> 01:26:09.234 Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Yeah, thank you. 01:26:09.234 --> 01:29:28.000 There's a few projects that I'd like to highlight that were highly sponsored by the University and that had a great, also had a great impact on my life. And the first one is a project called United and Severed. I think that I will reach for the pamphlet to refresh myself on how important this project was. So I did this with Professor Kristine Diekman, and actually this project was really personal, but I was able to take a very personal experience--this is what artists do if you don't write memoirs, and they take it out into the world. And so it was following my own--I had a very severe traumatic injury while I was employed here. Lived through that. And I stood in as like a surrogate body on film for the topic of that window of time. So it deals with women and traumatic injury and PTSD. So at the time, I was also in close relationship with somebody who is working as a active--not active duty--non-active duty for the military, who was working around soldiers and PTSD and the Afghanistan and Iran and Iraq aftermath. And so Kristine and I looked for alum and students from our school, who were survivors of traumatic injury and how they dealt with it. And so Kim Anderson is--was in it and she was a CSUSM Liberal Studies major. And Ivy Kensinger was a student of mine and also Veronica Anover. She survived a horrific car accident on the way to campus. And turns out she is now a PhD in psychology. So very--came through in a miracle way. And we did a project that was a very poetic representation of movement and understanding disability. So that was featured. And we also worked with Butoh dancers because it was also during the time of some wild fires out in East County. So we took a group of students and we took down a tree from the extremities down to the trunk that was burned. And Richard Keeley is a professor, was a professor at San Diego State--is retired. and Anna O'Cain is a professor, visual art professor, who was working at Miracosta. And we did a huge project together that was featured at Center for the Arts Escondido. So I really wanted to highlight that. It was a very deep project. We have beautiful video footage. Kristine did an incredible job editing. I was sitting alongside her. She pushed all the buttons. Of course, it was really her editing that made the project so spectacular. And our work was featured in many film festivals internationally. So I just really wanted to mention that we have this beautiful artifact from that. And then the other project that I wanted to talk about was, um, wait a minute. 01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:30.315 Your palliative care work. 01:29:30.315 --> 01:30:59.000 Oh, my current work that I will continue when I'm, that I actually have a meeting in ten minutes for, that I'm working with Palliative Care--that's a pilot project--that's run by Michael McDuffie. And I'm working with Ranjita Basu and Andrew Spieldenner. And now we have a cohort of people from the Mindfulness Center working on it. And we're working with Elizabeth Healthcare Center, Elizabeth Hospice Center. And we're doing a once-a-month project on mindfulness. And so I'm bringing in the somatic piece. So really it's been a great, We've been working on that together for about a year and a half. And now we're enacting it over there in Escondido. And next week we'll have our third monthly session, and it will go through the year. So I will be still staying involved as a volunteer for that, while I'm off the books. And so I'm very happy to be doing practical applications in different fields. And that connects as I interweave everything that I've said today, that you know, that what I do with dance and what I believe dance can do in the world has a great impact because we're working with the body and compassionate empathy. We all have a body. We're always moving, even if it's, we're just, we're down to the breath. Breath is movement. And so with that, I'll just take a breath and say thank you. 01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:00.000 Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-084 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kevin Cole OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Cole, Kevin. Interview November 28. 2012 WAHA-03 00:39:51 HIST-01 CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories CSUSM This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. csusm United States. Marine Corps ; September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; United States. Marine Corps--Recruiting and enlistment ; USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Kevin Cole ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/67729db2171d7e702b46743f60168566.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history of Kevin Cole, recorded November 28, 2012, for the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project by the California State University San Marcos History Department. Cole begins his interview by discussing his family background as coming from an Irish Catholic immigrant family located in Lynn Massachusetts, and the role his civic-oriented family played in his and his brothers’ enlistment with the United States Marine Corps. Cole also briefly describes his brothers’ experiences in the Marines. Lynn (Mass.) ; Irish Catholic immigrants ; public service ; Marine Corps ; Mayor (Lynn, Mass.) ; fire crash rescue ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) 0 251 College experience, enlistment, and bootcamp Cole recounts his journey to enlistment in the Marine Corps, including dropping out of UMass Amherst and a short stint in community college, before attending bootcamp at Parris Island, South Carolina. UMass Amherst ; Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD) ; bootcamp 0 400 Becoming a Marine Corps Rifleman Cole explains his decision to enlist with Marine Corps Infantry and describes his occupational specialty (O311), including the on-the-job training that is required to be a Rifleman and the knowledge and skills required. Cole also briefly discusses his parent unit for the entirety of his Marine Corps career, the 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, and the two-year cycle that being a Marine entails, including a six-month deployment aboard the USS Tarawa and some of the training and work that entailed. Cole also goes into detail about the experience of visiting foreign cultures and the humanitarian service side of his work. Marine Corps Infantry ; Rifleman ; O311 ; Light Armored Reconnaissance ; Marine Expeditionary Unit ; Delta Company ; 2-year cycle ; USS Tarawa ; Darwin, Australia ; Hawaii ; Thailand ; Guam ; Philippines ; Middle East ; East Timor 0 1050 Bombing of the USS Cole, ship life, downtime Cole recounts being deployed when the USS Cole, and his involvement in security and patrolling the bombing site and cleanup efforts when the USS Tarawa was dispatched to provide support. Cole also remembers his deployments aboard US naval vessels and the difficulties of ship life, and the work of a Rifleman continuing during downtime. USS Cole ; Gulf of Aden ; Indian Ocean ; downtime ; USS Tarawa ; Persian Gulf ; ship life ; Camp Doha 0 1389 September 11, 2001 and reenlistment Cole recounts learning of the 9/11 terrorist attack, which happened in the interim between his first and second deployment, while he was training at “29 Palms” (Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (MCAGCC)) during a combined arms exercise. Cole also remembers breaking up with his girlfriend in the wake of the attack. Cole reminisces about the state of technology at that time and the lack of media available to him about the attack while he was training, and the scarcity of instantaneous communication while deployed. Cole also discusses the clarifying incident that led to him reenlisting with the Marines, and how public sentiment towards members of the armed services changed after the USS Cole bombing and 9/11. 9/11 ; 29 Palms (Calf.) ; Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (MCAGCC) ; USS Mount Vernon 0 2110 Second deployment Cole describes his second deployment, this time aboard the USS Mount Vernon, including the places he went and the training he undertook, as well as an attack on the Marines in Kuwait. Cole also recounts refusing orders to go to recruiting school so that he could be deployed alongside his unit in Iraq, January 2003. USS Mount Vernon ; Darwin, Australia ; Camp Doha ; Kuwait ; terrorist attack ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Singapore ; Guam ; Thailand ; East Timor 0 Kevin Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11.&#13 ; &#13 ; This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:06.474 --> 00:00:50.871 My name's Kevin Cole, and I was born in Lynn, Massachusetts in 1977 to a Irish Catholic immigrant family. Um, my mother was from London, my dad, from the city of Lynn, which is just north of Boston. And I was the third of three brothers. I come from a family that is very kind of--a family that's very civic-minded or civic-oriented. My dad's side of the family in particular, has a lot of service, um, in the family, a lot of military service, a lot of public servants. Maybe that's the Irish heritage too, I don't know. But a lot of firefighters and cops. And the bulk of my family is still in the Boston area. 00:00:50.871 --> 00:02:06.734 My grandfather was an attorney in the, uh, United States Army. He served from, I wanna say, '40 to '44, somewhere in there. because when he got back from World War II, he served as a politician as well. He was a state senator in Massachusetts. And he was also the mayor of my hometown, which is a pretty big city outside of Boston, just north of Boston. I know he had brothers who were also in the military. I know my uncle Joe, my dad's Uncle Joe was in the Marine Corps for many years. And I had another, um, great uncle who also served in the Marine Corps. He was a colonel in the Marine Corps as well. My dad and his brother didn't serve in the military, but they were public school teachers. They both served as public school educators in the elementary schools. I think between the two of 'em, they had like seventy-five, seventy-four years of teaching service. My dad was a teacher in the Lynn Public School System in Massachusetts for forty years. And my mom and dad had three sons, um, still have three sons and all three served in the military. 00:02:06.734 --> 00:03:08.675 And I can remember as a kid growing up in Massachusetts, knowing my cousin who's the firefighter, and my uncle who's the firefighter, and, you know, other cousins who were cops and served in the military and uncles and aunts who served in the military, it was kind of a no-brainer when I was a little kid. I can remember dressing up as a Army Ranger for Halloween. And it was kind of a theme in my family. All three of the boys always talked about joining the military. My eldest brother Mike graduated from high school and kind of piddled around for a few months, and then enlisted in the Marine Corps. He was a firefighter in the Marine Corps from 1991 to 1996. And he served in a fire crash rescue department in Camp Pendleton. He served on the runway, and he's what most Marines would commonly refer to as a pope. He was a personnel other than grunt. So he wasn't a trigger puller. He actually learned a skill while he was in the Marines. 00:03:08.675 --> 00:03:39.000 It's not to say I didn't learn skills in the infantry or my other brother Pat. We both learned skills, certainly, but they don't translate well to the outside unless you want to become a cop or a SWAT team member or something along those lines. So my eldest brother Mike, served for five years. He did deploy on one occasion. He deployed to Somalia with the Marine Expeditionary Unit, sometime in early 1993 prior to the whole Black Hawk down scenario. That played out later in that year. 00:03:39.000 --> 00:04:11.444 My brother Pat also served in the Marine Corps. He enlisted in 1992, and he served for, I think just a little over four years. He was stationed primarily in Okinawa. I think he was there for three years. And he, as I said before, he was an infantry Marine. He served in the Marine Corps infantry as a reconnaissance Marine. He served, um, he served as a reconnaissance Marine for I want to say almost the entire time he was in. So he was in the infantry the whole time. 00:04:11.444 --> 00:05:29.725 And then finally the third of three sons. I enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1998. I had graduated from high school in 1996 and attended UMass Amherst for a year. And then I dropped out, mostly due to poor grades. I--I think a big part of it was that I didn't have the discipline as a student that I earned over many years in the Marines. So in 1996 when I graduated, um, went straight away to college at UMass, which was just far enough away from home to dorm and just close enough that I could drive back on the weekends if I wanted to. And so I wanted to get out of the hou--out of my parents' house. And so I went to UMass, but it didn't really work out. And so I went to community college in Massachusetts for a year part-time. And it was at that time that I met a couple of Marine Corps recruiters, and I wound up enlisting in the Marines in the summer of '98. I signed my papers on June 30th, '98, and went to bootcamp at Parris Island, South Carolina, um, MCRD, Parris Island, October 18th of '98. 00:05:29.725 --> 00:06:40.562 So I left for bootcamp. And I can remember going there and because I was an Eagle Scout, kind of a cool thing the military does, if you're an Eagle Scout, they give you a rank. They figure that you have some leadership skills. So they--you get an automatic promotion when you enlist. At least they did it that time. I think they still do it now, but I'm not certain. But regardless, I was made a private first class right when I signed the paperwork. And I went to bootcamp, and I can remember my dad saying to me, "you're the type of kid that you're either gonna wash out or you're gonna graduate from bootcamp, you know, at the top of your class." And so I went to Parris Island in October of '98. I graduated from bootcamp. I graduated a private first class. I was among the leaders of the group. Probably narrowly missed out on a promotion. But I think I gained quite a bit from bootcamp. It was a good experience for me. I got into shape and I certainly started learning discipline. But it was a process over many years that led me to being a disciplined Marine. 00:06:40.562 --> 00:08:06.824 So after bootcamp in Parris Island, um, I went to Camp Geiger, North Carolina for School of Infantry. I had enlisted as an infantry Marine despite the objections of my recruiters, I had scored really well on the ASVAB, the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. It's the entrance exam you have to take to enlist in the military. Actually, to enter the military, you have to take this exam. And I scored really, really highly on it. In fact, I scored so highly that the Marine Corps said, you can take whatever job you want, um, and do whatever you want in the military. But there were certain job fields that encompassed many different jobs. And the one I really wanted to do was what my older brother Michael had done. He had served in a fire crash rescue, and I wanted to do the same thing. I thought being a firefighter was cool. Again, it kind of goes back to that family tradition of civil service. And so that is what I wanted. But the recruiter told me that he couldn't guarantee me a specific job. He could only guarantee me a specific job field. And that field that included fire crash rescue also included all air supporting duties. And some of 'em were just horrific. I remember Air Traffic Controller was the one that jumped out at me, and I thought there's no way I can sit in front of a computer screen for the next four years. 00:08:06.824 --> 00:09:30.595 And so, despite the recruiter's objections, I enlisted infantry knowing that all the fields are so closely related, at least I'm gonna get to do what I want to do. And so I enlisted in the infantry. My military occupational specialty is called O311. It's the Infantry Family, O3, and 11 is the designation for a rifleman. It's the most basic Marine there really is. Of course, I say most basic, and it doesn't mean--it doesn't mean elementary. It doesn't mean not as advanced. It just means that that's kind of the baseline for all Marines. And when you become a Marine Corps Rifleman, you then go on to learn a whole lot more. There's a lot more OJT, on-the-job training that comes with being in the Marine Corps Infantry. Whereas with a lot of specialty jobs like fire crash rescue or air traffic control, whatever, the initial schooling is a lot greater. Of course, there's still a certain degree of on-the-job training, but, with the Marine Corps Infantry, you really never, ever, ever stop learning. I can remember my last year in the Marines, after having served for over eight years in the Marine Corps, serving the infantry the entire time, I was still learning new things. 00:09:30.595 --> 00:10:59.514 So I think people kind of jokingly refer to as Marine Infantrymen as grunts, because that's all they do, and they don't really learn too much. But actually the knowledge that a Marine Corps Infantryman has is significant. And it doesn't come easily. It's not an easy job. So when I say basic, in terms of Marine Corps Rifleman being the basic Marine, they're actually pretty advanced, as far as intelligence, because they have to learn so much. Um, so I went to Camp Geiger. I went to School of Infantry there for the, O311 school, and I can't remember how long it was. I remember it started in January, I wanna say January 25th, 1999, and ended probably sometime in March. I think I checked into my parent unit at Camp Pendleton in the end of March. March 21st, 2000--excuse me, March 21st, 1999 was when I checked in with the 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion. Uh, they're stationed in Camp Pendleton. And it's a mechanized infantry unit that provides forward reconnaissance. So it's a, it's an infantry force, but it's also a reconnaissance force. So I checked in there March of '99, and I served with that unit as my parent unit for the entire length of my Marine Corps career, until I was discharged, honorably on March the first, 2007. 00:10:59.514 --> 00:11:15.000 So I served in the same unit for just a little under eight years, plus four or five months of schooling, was my total time in service. 00:11:15.000 --> 00:12:24.215 So after checking in with first LAR (Light Armored Reconnaissance), I learned the pattern of an infantry Marine. Their cycle is such that when you join the infantry or any deploying unit for that matter, you're guaranteed somewhat of a certain cycle that follows a two year--a two year pattern. And so the two years is broken up into four, six-month pieces. The first six of which is a training cycle, which is when I joined my unit. I joined during the training cycle, and then after the six month training cycle within your unit, you then are tasked with a larger joint unit, and that unit becomes the Marine Expeditionary Unit. And so when I was with Delta Company, first, LAR, that unit was then chopped out of our parent unit and placed with a larger battalion landing team. I think it was 3-1 on my first deployment. And we spent six months training as Delta Company. And then our company moved and attached to the battalion landing team, 3rd battalion, 1st Marines, and we trained as a larger combined unit for six months. 00:12:24.215 --> 00:14:14.000 So that's the first year of the cycle. Then the second year of the cycle, the first six months is when you actually deploy. So you spend six months training as a unit. You spend six months training with the collective, a greater unit, and then you spend six months deployed. My first deployment at that time, it was prior to, uh, you know, war. It was in 2000 and September 11th hadn't happened yet. And we deployed on a normal Marine Corps pattern. So we did six months of training, six months of working up training with the larger group, and then six months deployed. My first six months as I said, was on the USS Tarawa, um, which is a pretty large ship. And we went out with the Marine Expeditionary Unit, with the battalion landing team, and we traveled by ship from San Diego to Hawaii. And then from Hawaii, we really went all over the place. Some of the ports we hit were, in Australia, we ported in Darwin, and we had the opportunity to train with the Australian Army there, the 2nd cavalry regiment, which drove--utilized the vehicles similar to the light armor reconnaissance vehicles, the LAVs that we used. Um, but we had an opportunity to train with many units. We did lots of training in Hawaii, we did training in Darwin on a couple of occasions. We trained in Singapore. We--I'm sorry, we didn't train in Singapore, we trained in Thailand. Um, but during the six months at sea on ship, we made several port ports of call. And during those times, some were for work, but some were for liberty. And so we would get free time. Singapore was one example where we got lots of free time. I think we probably spent ten days there, five days on the way out and five days on the way back. 00:14:14.000 --> 00:15:27.914 And when I say on the way out, I mean to the Middle East. It was certainly a hotspot at the time in the late nineties. So we were--we were always cognizant as Marines that there were places in the world that were danger zones. And in fact, the Middle East is a tax free zone for that purpose. It's considered a hazardous duty. And so servicemen and women who serve in that region don't pay taxes. I don't know why, but regardless, it was more pay for us. So that was nice. But the destination of deployments at that time was to the Middle East. And so we would leave San Diego and go to the Middle East and come back, and we would make that a six-month trip. And in doing so, we would stop at many ports of call. So Thailand was one example. Singapore, Guam, the Philippines, we stopped at a lot of different places. I had the opportunity to go to Seychelles, which was like, amazing. Learned how to dive there. It was pretty cool. Um, but at the same time, there's a lot of work involved as well. We, we went to, whoa! (room light turns off) 00:15:27.914 --> 00:16:12.315 So we were able to go to many different ports of call for training purposes, but also for free time purposes, which was really nice. It was the opportunity to see the world, which was cool. Which it--it wasn't why I joined the military. I think I honestly ultimately joined the Marine Corps out of a sense of civic duty. And it ended up being the Marines out of, I guess, pride. But there were a lot of Marines in my family at the time. Of course my two older brothers were both Marines. Um, they had both just been recently discharged. But I think part of it was a, certainly a sense of civic pride and a duty, kind of a sense of an obligation to give back to the country that's been really good to my family, who, as I said, were immigrants. 00:16:12.315 --> 00:16:50.044 So, going overseas and deploying to a different hostile--different hotspots at the time, they weren't quite hostile until later, was an amazing experience. To visit foreign cultures and do a lot of good--in different ways--providing medical services in East Timor was a great one. We earned a--my unit collectively earned a humanitarian service medal on a couple of occasions for going to East Timor and helping a really severely impoverished country. 00:16:50.044 --> 00:17:30.315 But we also had opportunities to do, you know, help build schools and paint houses and lots of neat stuff like that. The service abroad was not just, go to Iraq, go to Afghanistan and start, you know, being a bully. It was an opportunity to do humanitarian work. In fact a significant portion of my time spent in Iraq in 2003 was actually giving out food, giving out food. Giving out water, medical aid to people. That's certainly some of the things that I remember fondly from my service in Iraq. 00:17:30.315 --> 00:19:06.000 But going overseas on my first deployment on the USS Tarawa, the threat of war is something that's always in the back of a mind, the mind of a Marine, especially one in the infantry who fires a gun almost every day and learns how to employ weapons of warfare. So it was a shock to me, but not a total shock when the USS Cole was bombed. I was deployed, I was onboard the USS Tarawa at the time when the USS Cole was bombed. In fact, I believe we were in the Persian Gulf. And when the Tara--excuse me, when the USS Cole was bombed in the Gulf of Aden--I think it was the Gulf of Aden--we, you know, did 180-degree return and sailed south from the Gulf. And I believe we were on scene the next day. We provided security operations, uh, Zodiac patrols. Zodiacs are the small boats you see in movies. We provided security patrols via those small boats. We also, uh, the ship, as I said, the Tarawa was a big ship, so we provided a base of operations for the investigation team that was there. I believe they were members of the FBI. I'm not certain, um, or might have even been the CIA, I don't know. But there were guys wearing suits and they were investigating the USS Cole bombing. And so we were there onsite for that. And that was really, um, I don't wanna say it was a wake up call because it wasn't a shock, but it was a surprise that a terrorist attack had occurred. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:21:26.324 Regardless, we continued with our deployment after the area had been secured in the USS Cole was then, taken over by another crew and I believe it was floated back to the United States on a huge cargo ship. We continued on with our mission, which as I said, was to go to the Middle East, to do some training in the Middle East to be a part of the Fifth Fleet and to monitor activities in the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf area. And so we went to camp Doha in Kuwait and did some training in Kuwait, for, I don't know, probably a month? Two to four weeks. Anyway. And while we were there, we were doing training exercises, and it was always, uh, everything we did was always a preparation for war. It's really--it's a reality. And it's funny because--it's funny--it's strange because as young Marines, you are taught and you perform so much in preparation for war, that when it comes, it's not a surprise, it's not a shock. And for the most part, you're ready for it. So we, we conducted our deployment. We did our training in Camp Doha, and we came back to the States. Um, we spent, I think, six months to the day on board the USS Tarawa. We'd also spent some time ashore of course doing some training and stuff, but for the most part, it was ship life, which it isn't, uh, it isn't very fun. It isn't very fun at all. It seemed like on both my deployments via US Naval vessel, both times in the middle of the Indian Ocean, in the middle of summer, when it's 120 degrees out, the air conditioner breaks in the berthing area, which is the room where, um, which is a quarters on board the ship where Marines and Sailors sleep. It seemed like it didn't fail that the air conditioner would break at some point during the deployment and make the inside of the ship, you know, 150 degrees. And I can remember many, many hot nights sleeping on the flight deck, which is probably frowned upon now, I would imagine. But at the time, it wasn't that big a deal 00:21:26.324 --> 00:23:09.000 Regardless, we came back, I wanna say in February of 2000. I wanna say February of 2000, or, yeah--February of 2000 is when we came back from my first deployment. I believe it was with the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit, but it might have been the 11th, because I always get 'em confused. The next time I went out was about a year and a half later, and I went out with the other one. This time it was with Battalion Landing Team 2/1, which is 2nd Marines, excuse me, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marines. And with 2/1, we did the same cycle again. So it's the six months of training, six months of training as a combined unit, six months of deployment on ship, and then you get six months of downtime where there are a lot of three and four-day weekends. Sometimes. They're--you're supposed to get a lot of three and four day weekends. It doesn't always work out that way. Um, but after our six months of downtime, which we did get, we went right back into training phase again, and an Infantry Marine trains all the time. You shoot your gun all the time, you clean your gun all the time. We had large vehicles to take care of being in a mechanized in mechanized infantry unit. We had vehicles to clean, to maintain, to test and to push to the limit to ensure that we could do so again in a time of crisis, which of course, proved relevant. Regardless, my second deployment came in 2002 after training some more and training with the Battalion Landing Team again, we then deployed in June of 2002. 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:56.825 Now, in the interim, September 11th had happened, and I remember September 11th, pretty vividly, only because I was--I mean, I'm sure I'd remember it vividly either way, but I remember it, I remember the moment for me when a corporal I was serving with came up to me and told me a plane crashed into the Twin Towers. And then he said, and you know, half an hour ago, another plane crashed into the other tower. And at the time, we were training in 29 Palms. We had been in 29 Palms for several weeks. We were doing a combined arms exercise. So it was a lot of different moving parts, a lot of units. In fact, I think it was one of the biggest combined armed exercises that 29 Palms had seen in a while. And that was saying a lot because it's one of the biggest bases, it's my understanding it's the largest impact area. 00:23:56.825 --> 00:25:22.000 So there's the largest training ground where you can fire weapons. And they often have combined armed exercises that have, you know, five, ten thousand Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, et cetera tied to them. This was one of the larger combined armed exercises that 29 Palms had conducted. And I don't know how many thousands of Marines were there working in cooperation during this training exercise, but it was significant. It was a lot. And when September 11th happened, I remember calling home, and I had a, I had a girlfriend at the time back in Massachusetts where I'm originally from, and I can remember calling her the next day and telling her this, you know, our relationship isn't gonna work anymore. And it was not a hard decision for me at all. I remember she kind of got upset and said, "What are you talking about? You know, you're gonna break up with me over the phone." And I said, "You know what?" I said, "I am serving my country and I can't afford to be tied to anything but the Marine Corps. I'm married to the Marine Corps, essentially." And I can remember it wasn't a tough decision. I just felt it incumbent upon me as a citizen of this country to continue to serve to the best of my ability and to eliminate any distractions. And I don't think it was right then that I had decided to reenlist, but it was a short time later. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:26:40.815 I remember September 11th, you know, it all went down and we continued our training cycle. We were scheduled to be in 29 Palms for several more weeks, and we stayed. So we didn't have access to TV at the time. You know, it was 2001. I remember I was a squad leader of a group of fifteen to twenty men, and I think seven of us had cell phones. Six or seven of us had cell phones, the other guys didn't have cell phones. It's important to consider that as the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the conflicts that have arisen in the 2000s, as they have progressed, technology has advanced in such a way that it blows people's minds when I tell them, you know, when I served in Iraq, there were no cell phones. You couldn't just pull a phone out of your pocket in 2003 and call your mom in Boston. It just wasn't possible. Phones weren't capable of doing that. And if they were, I sure didn't have one. And they were probably way too expensive. I remember we had one or two reporters who were tasked to our unit in Iraq, and they had phones that were capable of calling the United States. I got to call home once in 2003. One time I got to call home and talk to my, I think, my brother, for about five minutes. And that was it. That was it. That was it. 00:26:40.815 --> 00:27:08.055 So I think it's important to recognize that technology has advanced in such a way that when I say to people, only seven guys out of, you know, fifteen to twenty had cell phones, they say, what? This was a time, Skype hadn't been invented, MacBooks and Apple was, was still a significant, um, significantly struggling, I should say. Technology wasn't advanced to the point where it is now. 00:27:08.055 --> 00:28:25.765 And so when September 11th happened, I can remember we had one guy in my unit who was from New York State. He was just a little ways away from New York. And I remember he used my phone to call home and make sure his family was okay. And they were, but I can remember the impact of September 11th happening on us as Marines wasn't as significant as it was to the common citizen. Um, I think because of our military training, I think because of our military mindset, because we were in the infantry, it was kind of like, wow. But it wasn't a total shock. It was shocking that somebody was able to attack our country so boldly, so blatantly. But I don't think it really surprised or scared any of us. I think it--in the infantry, we can't be scared because of our training and our training is very important and very thorough, and it prepares us for things like that. Certainly, it doesn't prepare you for a plane flying into a building, but at the same time, the shock factor wasn't as big for us as Marines. 00:28:25.765 --> 00:30:49.375 And so after September 11th happened, we had to continue to train. We were still in 29 Palms. We still had a couple of weeks there. I think we spent probably three more weeks in 29 Palms. So much time in fact, that when we got back to Camp Pendleton, the video footage of the attack on the Twin Towers was gone. They had already removed it from the news reels. So for the most part, all we saw was still images. I saw a few small videos, but I didn't see what everybody else saw on September 11th, because I was training, I was out in the field. I didn't have access to a TV. I didn't have a smartphone where you could watch the news. In fact, in 2003 when we deployed to Iraq, we heard the news probably three times, BBC. But it was one of the biggest aspects of coming home that was fearful to me. People often ask me, were you scared in Iraq? And I said, no, never. I was scared when I got on the plane and was about halfway back to the United States, though, because I didn't know what people were gonna think of me. Technology hadn't caught up to that point to, like it is today where soldiers in the field can actually get in front of a computer and Skype home and read their kid a bedtime story. That is new technology that we weren't privy to. And so when September 11th occurred, and we were in 29 Palms, it was certainly shocking to us. But I think it was later that I made the decision to reenlist, because later in the year, we were coming back from a large exercise in the cold weather training facility up by Bishop California. And when we were on our way back, I can remember somebody had. in my vehicle had wired a little FM radio to our intercom system so we could actually hear the news. So we could actually hear the news. And we actually got to hear a local station come on and say, you know, soldiers in, in their big tanks are gonna be driving down Main Street any minute, go out and, and, and wave to the soldiers. 00:30:49.375 --> 00:32:27.865 And I can remember driving through the small town California and seeing kids running out of a schoolhouse to line the sidewalk and wave and cheer for us. And it was very, um, it was very--it was very special. It was very special to receive that kind of support because I had never seen it before. And when I talked to servicemen and women today about the support we had and the support we didn't have while serving from society, they're kind of shocked when I tell 'em about my first few years in the Marines when Marines were kind of frowned upon. They weren't well liked. They were--Marines were underfoot, there were too many of 'em. Um, I can remember going into a couple of bars, nightclubs in North Carolina when I was in School of Infantry and being told, "Hey, Marines aren't allowed in this bar. You need to go somewhere else." And that was okay. You know, that nowadays you hear that somebody isn't supporting the military and whoa, go to another country. Um, but at that time, it wasn't cool to be a Marine. It wasn't cool to be in the service. And so to see that transition, probably right after the USS Cole was bombed, certainly at September 11th, to see that transition of servicemen are kind of frowned upon to, wow, I want my daughter to date a Marine. Um, and I don't know if it's ever actually gone that far, but certainly better than Marines aren't allowed in this bar. 00:32:27.865 --> 00:34:09.000 And I think it was driving through those small towns and watching kids wave and people come out, I can remember thinking, and maybe even saying over the intercom of my vehicle, "Hey guys, this is why we're here." And I remember thinking in my head, this is why I'm serving my country, to provide freedom, and to provide security for our people. And to see that threatened was--it was horrifying. But as I said, it wasn't shocking. I think the shock value of it was lessened on us as Marines. But regardless, to see an outpouring of public support for the military and to see the public really at that time transitioned from a, eh, I don't know how I feel about the military to wow, I love our military. It was definitely special. And at some point in there, I decided to reenlist. Each of my older brothers served one enlistment. My older brother Mike served for five years. My brother Pat served a little over four, but I made a decision to reenlist partly based upon September 11th, partly based upon the type of support we got as servicemen and women from the American public. But I think a big part of it too, was, again, it kind of fell back to this civic duty, this sense of obligation I felt, that was kind of inborn in me as a kid. I felt that my duty was not yet done. 00:34:09.000 --> 00:35:10.656 And further, when we got back from 29 Palms, when we got back from--when we got back from, uh, the training exercise in the cold weather warfare, I can remember I was pretty close to getting out of the Marines at that time. I had a few months left in the Marine Corps in my first enlistment. And I remember one of my commanders saying, we're gonna need volunteers to go back out on a second deployment because we're short. And me and probably three or four other guys--me and probably three or four other guys volunteered to go back out with Delta Company first LAR again. And that was when we deployed on the (USS) Mount Vernon, in 2002. We did another six month deployment. We did another six months training, six months of training with the combined group, and then a six month deployment and returned home on December 15th, 2002. 00:35:10.656 --> 00:36:33.934 Now, that deployment was a little bit different than the first. I can recall that somebody was retiring. I believe it was the admiral, or someone high ranking was retiring. And so he wanted to go to some of the nice places on our deployment. That was the rumor. I don't know if it was true. But regardless, we seemed to be going to a lot of nice ports of call. We went to Darwin, we went to Singapore, we went to Guam, we went to Thailand. We went to Thailand, we went to East Timor, which was kind of typical in the training cycle at that time, doing some humanitarian efforts there. We also went to, I believe we went to Seychelles on that deployment. So we hit a lot of cool, cool places to go, a lot of good places to go and enjoy ourselves, to, you know, go on the beach to surf, to dive. But we also did some significant training. And it was there in Camp Doha when we were out in an impact area training, we received word that one of the units at assigned to the Battalion Landing Team had been attacked in Kuwait. And I don't remember if one Marine was killed and one Marine was wounded, or if two Marines were killed. I think it was two Marines were killed. And it was a terrorist attack. It was kind of this truck full of guys drove by and fired into a group of Marines who were doing some training, and one or two were killed. 00:36:33.934 --> 00:38:16.485 And that was kind of shocking because we were a forward force at the time. We were, you know, not out there in a peaceful manner. We were out there doing training, firing guns, having a live fire exercise in Kuwait, in Northern Kuwait. And we were attacked. And I remember that really kind of set the tone. When we were on our way back, we already knew that something was going down soon. And I remember I had extended my contract by four or five months to deploy on the second occasion. And when we got back from deployment, I remember I was told--uh, I reenlisted during deployment. I remember I was told, we're gonna need you, Sergeant Cole to go to recruiting school. And I can remember saying, no, I'm not going to recruiting school. You're crazy. My unit's getting ready to go overseas again. And we returned on December 15th, and between December 15th and I think January 6th, I refused orders to go to recruiting school, got like a reprimand. Um, mainly for the fact that the sergeant who was gonna replace me--I didn't trust him with my Marines. Period. I didn't trust him with my Marines. And I felt that if somebody was gonna continue to lead my platoon, it should be me and not somebody they don't know. So for those reasons, I denied my orders and was reprimanded and deployed to Iraq. 00:38:16.485 --> 00:39:31.945 So we deployed to Iraq in January, 2003. We had just come back from deployment on a--on the USS Mount Vernon. And a month later we were on a plane from March Air (Reserve) Base flying back to Iraq. We landed in Kuwait in, I don't know, mid-January 2003. And at that point, we were all aware that danger was imminent. Um, period. We knew what we were there to do. But in the back of our minds, we were all told, you know, this is a military engagement certainly, but it is also a significant humanitarian effort. We're going to relieve people who are being oppressed. And we were given humanitarian food. We were given extra water, extra food that we could give out. All of our Navy Corpsmen were instructed to give out medical aid as necessary and as able, um, without it being detrimental to the Marines they were serving with. And so we knew that was definitely gonna be a part of our mission. 00:39:31.945 --> 00:39:51.445 So when we arrived in Kuwait, again, we went right back into training and preparing. We had many different missions that we were, um, that we were tasked with. I'll get to that another time 'cause I gotta go. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. 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Interview November 28, 2012 Description An account of the resource Kevin Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-03 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps -- Recruiting and enlistment USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kevin Cole Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lynn (Mass.) Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> CSUSM Veterans Voices Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/84b4d291425238d1a6b1ad8321a41775.pdf 03077269591f47c6d5239cd22e9b9ad9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cole, Kevin. Interview transcript, November 28, 2012 Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral history interview with Kevin Cole. Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kevin Cole Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-28 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 United States. Marine Corps USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lynn (Mass.) Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text CSUSM Veterans Voices Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4cb4071e4b68b0a4322bc9e8ac6d7228.pdf e64e54578e88c9f2be9c650b7c67c406 PDF Text Text LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn't exactly a very pleasant childhood, let's put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother's house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written “Master.” And I didn't know that word--I didn't. So, she told me what it was, that it was a “Master” and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister’s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister’s name because of what's different than mine. And, uh, it was “Miss” and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, “There's something wrong here.” And I think, “I'm supposed to be more like the ‘Miss.’” (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that's why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That's one of my earliest memories. After that it didn't get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn't, I ended up joining the Navy. But that's (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn't exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that's how I felt. So, it wasn't an easy time, believe me. But that's pretty much my basic childhood. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 1 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I'm sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn’t--I didn't even, I don't think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them “transsexuals,” which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that's the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister's clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn't do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn't want “my kind” there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I'm like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, “mentally disturbed,” because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to “fix them,” so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn't, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I'm one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we've come, there's still much further to go. So. Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that's okay and talk about your years in activism. You've been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I Transcribed by Julia Friedman 2 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn't start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn't come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn’t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there's even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn't understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I've heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn't even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say “No,” because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that's what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don't have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, “I want be like that person.” Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, “Oh, that's me when I grow up.” But yet, then I find out that they're either the joke or they're, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I'm like, “Okay, well, that's not me.” So, I'm not like that, but you know, here I am, that's who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn’t alone and there's a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we've been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I've been around forever (laughs). It's just so something that hasn't been known, that's all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There's some tribes that don't even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn't have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl Transcribed by Julia Friedman 3 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Friedman: Wow. That's really interesting. And I'm glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn't say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don't agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they're the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, “Hey, they're like me and you know what, they're okay. That's an engineer, that's a medical doctor and that's a lawyer,” you know? “This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it's not so bad.” So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn't start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can't remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I'm here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender Transcribed by Julia Friedman 4 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, “Oh, that's the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff,” but there's so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let's say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I've worked, I've had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, “Get that thing out of my hospital.” So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she's permanently disabled, because she didn't receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn't make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they're no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn't know how to deal with this. I didn't know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I'd tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop—help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you're talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn't want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I've never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual Transcribed by Julia Friedman 5 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 that's on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that's been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there's a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they’re wondering, you know, “Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?” Um, you know, and, “Can she have her name change? Can she get women's clothing? Can be isolated so she's protected away from the general population?” All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state's laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it-we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year's. So, she was like, “No, no, no, no.” (both laugh) So, of course I've moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, “You know, I'm an--I'm an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?” So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, “What can I do to come?” (laughs) You know? “What can I do when I get out here?” (laughs) “Where can I go?” He's like, “Don't worry, we'll put you to work.” So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, “Hey, it's along the lines,” because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn't too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for MediCal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn't worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 6 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 We had, I don't know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we're remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn't want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I'm sure it's at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there's less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that's an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I'm a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that's something that people don't see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I've got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It's usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it's so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it's more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the “intersectionality of marginalizations.” So, you know, that's why that particular day is so important to me, even though it's a somber day. And I'm glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I'm hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that's what the grant is called, “Fight the Hate.” (laughs) So, you know, it's an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I'm actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I'm also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I'm also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I'm, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I'm privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don't have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we've done, there's still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It’s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you've learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn't be able to get their rights. That's what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 7 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn't get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they're trying to pick up these supposedly “men” that dress as “women,” which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it's because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbians stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn't make sense. And believe it or not, there's still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I'm with another woman, I consider--I'm sexually attracted to other women. I'm romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There's a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I'm not a lesbian because I'm a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they're out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there's still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we've actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I've looked into is--and I hope I'm not premature in saying this. I've been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I'm doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I'm on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there's more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that's my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that's where me, that's my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that's--that's my life--that's my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for Transcribed by Julia Friedman 8 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I'm a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it's happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, “Hey, we've got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you.” Friedman: That’s awful. Pronovost: So, they're going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it's so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it's ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They’re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don't have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people's HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state's forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA's a national law, It's not a state law (laughs). They shouldn't be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the “Don't Say Gay Bill” in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida's bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we're going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say “You're gay.” There's another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that's very similar to Texas's bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, “Oh, it's become a ‘popular thing.’” It's not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 9 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that's why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months’ time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they're--the thing that I'm looking at is I'm hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that's my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that's more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we'll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don't think it's that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there's certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what's right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there's even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You're looking at very, um, I don't like to use this because I don't like to use somebody's name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don't like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let's take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, “Trumping somebody” is overcoming is somebody. So that's what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don't like people like me. You know, I've had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they're having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That's the only thing that they can't change because that's a legal document, Transcribed by Julia Friedman 10 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, “Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max.” And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that's not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren't, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That's the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there's a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it's mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, “granola-ish,” if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It's very similar. The fight's the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they've raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag's never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I'm hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you've already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I've learned so much it's hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I've had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world's largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- “Where where's the donuts and coffee?” (laughs). That was the type of look I got. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 11 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 And, “Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?” When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man's field and being a woman trying to make it in a man's field. And, and so I don't—[connection froze]—People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that's what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that's one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can't go out there. I can mention about it, but I can't go out there and say, “You know, we need more protections for trans women of color.” I can say that, but, you know, I don't experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I'm not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that's the main thing I've learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn't just about any one person, it's about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we've covered so much. (both laugh). I don't know. I don't think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It's a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we've done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I'm just happy to be here. Like I said, that that's my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I'm hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 12 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you've been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You're very welcome. And it's my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it's our pleasure (both laugh). Transcribed by Julia Friedman 13 2022-11-08 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pronovost, Leea. Interview transcript. April 8, 2022. Description An account of the resource Leea Pronovost was a transgender activist and has advocated for transgender and LGBTQIA+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Most recently residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost was a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she worked as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chaired the Gender Advocacy Project, and was a grant writer. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leea Pronovost Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-08 Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ+ issues LGBTQ+ rights Transgender people -- Civil rights Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) Springfield (Mass.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Leea Pronovost License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you have questions regarding usage of this oral history. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 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Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Julia Friedman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leea Pronovost OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Activism (LGBTQ) OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Oral history of Leea Pronovost, April 8, 2022 SC027-18 1:16:52 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights San Diego (Calif.) Springfield (Mass.) Transgender people -- Civil rights Activism (LGBTQ) Leea Pronovost Julia Friedman mp4 PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.mp4 1:|14(8)|21(14)|30(2)|36(8)|44(3)|54(13)|62(11)|70(6)|77(4)|91(7)|98(1)|104(2)|112(2)|119(11)|127(11)|135(11)|144(1)|155(8)|167(12)|175(1)|181(10)|189(1)|194(8)|201(8)|210(5)|217(6)|227(8)|236(1)|244(11)|252(11)|261(10)|269(2)|276(6)|283(8)|291(14)|299(10)|308(2)|316(11)|324(12)|332(15)|340(3)|345(11)|353(10)|361(7)|367(6)|375(8)|383(1)|390(1)|398(11)|405(14)|417(7)|430(6)|437(7)|444(1)|451(3)|463(2)|473(9)|481(14)|490(11)|500(2)|512(6)|523(11)|534(15)|542(5)|549(13)|558(1)|568(10)|576(1)|582(13)|597(9)|604(6)|611(2)|616(17)|623(6)|631(7)|649(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b85338e1bff43294d1016cc0062ca02f.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and childhood Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn't exactly a very pleasant childhood, let's put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother's house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written “Master.” And I didn't know that word--I didn't. So, she told me what it was, that it was a “Master” and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister’s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister’s name because of what's different than mine. And, uh, it was “Miss” and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, “There's something wrong here.” And I think, “I'm supposed to be more like the ‘Miss.’” (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that's why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That's one of my earliest memories. After that it didn't get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn't, I ended up joining the Navy. But that's (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn't exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that's how I felt. So, it wasn't an easy time, believe me. But that's pretty much my basic childhood. Leea Pronovost discusses her experience growing up in a conservative and homophobic household in Springfield, Massachusetts during the 1960s. childhood ; homophobia ; Massachusetts ; Springfield (Mass.) ; transgender ; transphobia 309 Time in the Navy Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I'm sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn’t--I didn't even, I don't think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them “transsexuals,” which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that's the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister's clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn't do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn't want “my kind” there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I'm like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, “mentally disturbed,” because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to “fix them,” so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn't, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I'm one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we've come, there's still much further to go. So. Leea Pronovost discusses exploring her gender identity through cross-dressing, as well as her time in the Navy, beginning in 1977. Cross-dressing ; homophobia ; Massachusetts ; transgender ; transphobia ; United States. Navy 572 Coming out/ Turning towards activism Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that's okay and talk about your years in activism. You've been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn't start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn't come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn’t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there's even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn't understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I've heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn't even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say “No,” because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that's what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don't have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, “I want be like that person.” Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-- in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, “Oh, that's me when I grow up.” But yet, then I find out that they're either the joke or they're, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I'm like, “Okay, well, that's not me.” So, I'm not like that, but you know, here I am, that's who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn’t alone and there's a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we've been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I've been around forever (laughs). It's just so something that hasn't been known, that's all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There's some tribes that don't even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn't have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Leea Pronovost discusses coming out as a transgender woman in 2006 after a near-death experience. After coming out, Pronovost turns towards activism after noticing the hurdles that transgender people face in terms of access to medical treatment, or lack of protections in the housing or job markets. Activism (LGBTQ) ; LGBTQ+ activism ; transgender 1098 Activist activities Friedman: Wow. That's really interesting. And I'm glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn't say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don't agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they're the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, “Hey, they're like me and you know what, they're okay. That's an engineer, that's a medical doctor and that's a lawyer,” you know? “This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it's not so bad.” So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn't start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can't remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I'm here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, “Oh, that's the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff,” but there's so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let's say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I've worked, I've had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, “Get that thing out of my hospital.” So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she's permanently disabled, because she didn't receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn't make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community ; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they're no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn't know how to deal with this. I didn't know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I'd tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop—help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you're talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn't want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I've never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual that's on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that's been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there's a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they’re wondering, you know, “Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?” Um, you know, and, “Can she have her name change? Can she get women's clothing? Can be isolated so she's protected away from the general population?” All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state's laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it--we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year's. So, she was like, “No, no, no, no.” (both laugh) So, of course I've moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, “You know, I'm an--I'm an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?” So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, “What can I do to come?” (laughs) You know? “What can I do when I get out here?” (laughs) “Where can I go?” He's like, “Don't worry, we'll put you to work.” So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, “Hey, it's along the lines,” because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn't too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for Medi-Cal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn't worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. We had, I don't know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we're remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn't want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I'm sure it's at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there's less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that's an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I'm a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that's something that people don't see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I've got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It's usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it's so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it's more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the “intersectionality of marginalizations.” So, you know, that's why that particular day is so important to me, even though it's a somber day. And I'm glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I'm hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that's what the grant is called, “Fight the Hate.” (laughs) So, you know, it's an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I'm actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I'm also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I'm also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I'm, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I'm privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don't have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we've done, there's still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It’s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you've learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn't be able to get their rights. That's what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn't get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they're trying to pick up these supposedly “men” that dress as “women,” which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it's because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbian stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn't make sense. And believe it or not, there's still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I'm with another woman, I consider--I'm sexually attracted to other women. I'm romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There's a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I'm not a lesbian because I'm a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they're out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there's still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we've actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So. Leea Pronovost describes her experiences partnering with a plethora of LGBTQ+ activist organizations. Pronovost collaborated with organizations on the East and West Coasts, in fields and topics such as education, peer support, suicide prevention, prison reform, politics, housing, and gender advocacy. Activism (LGBTQ) ; California. ; Gay-straight alliances in schools ; Greenfield (Mass.) ; homophobia ; LGBTQ+ activism ; Massachusetts ; New Hampshire ; Oakland (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; PFLAG ; transgender ; Transgender discrimination ; Transgender Law Center ; transgender rights ; transphobia ; Tri Ess (Organization) 3098 Advocating towards inclusivity Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I've looked into is--and I hope I'm not premature in saying this. I've been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I'm doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I'm on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there's more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that's my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that's where me, that's my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that's--that's my life--that's my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I'm a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it's happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, “Hey, we've got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you.” Friedman: That’s awful. Pronovost: So, they're going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it's so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it's ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They’re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don't have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people's HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state's forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA's a national law, It's not a state law (laughs). They shouldn't be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the “Don't Say Gay Bill” in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida's bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we're going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say “You're gay.” There's another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that's very similar to Texas's bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, “Oh, it's become a ‘popular thing.’” It's not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that's why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months’ time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they're--the thing that I'm looking at is I'm hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that's my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that's more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we'll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Leea Pronovost discusses her thoughts about inclusivity in society. She hopes that society will become more inclusive of the LGBTQ+ community, but believes that it may take many more decades before society’s acceptance of LGBTQ+ people can happen. She also discusses the Biden administration’s legislative’s initiatives to protect LGBTQ+ rights. Activism (LGBTQ) ; Biden, Joseph R., Jr. ; California ; homophobia ; LGBTQ+ activism ; transgender ; Transgender discrimination ; transgender rights ; transphobia ; Vista (Calif.) 3748 West Coast and East Coast LGBTQ+ politics Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don't think it's that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there's certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what's right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there's even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You're looking at very, um, I don't like to use this because I don't like to use somebody's name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don't like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let's take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, “Trumping somebody” is overcoming is somebody. So that's what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don't like people like me. You know, I've had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they're having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That's the only thing that they can't change because that's a legal document, but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, “Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max.” And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that's not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren't, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That's the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there's a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it's mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, “granola-ish,” if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It's very similar. The fight's the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they've raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag's never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I'm hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Leea Pronovost discusses the similarities and differences between LGBTQ+-related politics on the West and East Coasts. California ; Connecticut River Valley ; Massachusetts ; Menifee (Calif.) ; Northampton (Mass.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Vista (Calif.) 4167 The importance of empowering others / Conclusion of interview Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you've already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I've learned so much it's hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I've had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world's largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone, and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- “Where where's the donuts and coffee?” (laughs). That was the type of look I got. And, “Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?” When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man's field and being a woman trying to make it in a man's field. And, and so I don't—[connection froze]—People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that's what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that's one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can't go out there. I can mention about it, but I can't go out there and say, “You know, we need more protections for trans women of color.” I can say that, but, you know, I don't experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I'm not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that's the main thing I've learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn't just about any one person, it's about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we've covered so much. (both laugh). I don't know. I don't think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It's a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we've done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I'm just happy to be here. Like I said, that that's my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I'm hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you've been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You're very welcome. And it's my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it's our pleasure (both laugh). Leea Pronovost concludes the interview by summarizing what she has learned throughout her career working as an activist and the importance of intersectionality in LGBTQ+ advocacy. transgender ; transphobia Oral history Leea Pronovost is a transgender activist and has been advocating for transgender and LGBTQ+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Now residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost is a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she works as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chairs the Gender Advocacy Project, and is a grant writer. Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn&#039 ; t exactly a very pleasant childhood, let&#039 ; s put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother&#039 ; s house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written &quot ; Master.&quot ; And I didn&#039 ; t know that word--I didn&#039 ; t. So, she told me what it was, that it was a &quot ; Master&quot ; and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister&#039 ; s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister&#039 ; s name because of what&#039 ; s different than mine. And, uh, it was &quot ; Miss&quot ; and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, &quot ; There&#039 ; s something wrong here.&quot ; And I think, &quot ; I&#039 ; m supposed to be more like the &#039 ; Miss.&#039 ; &quot ; (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that&#039 ; s why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That&#039 ; s one of my earliest memories. After that it didn&#039 ; t get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn&#039 ; t, I ended up joining the Navy. But that&#039 ; s (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn&#039 ; t exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that&#039 ; s how I felt. So, it wasn&#039 ; t an easy time, believe me. But that&#039 ; s pretty much my basic childhood. Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I&#039 ; m sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn&#039 ; t--I didn&#039 ; t even, I don&#039 ; t think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them &quot ; transsexuals,&quot ; which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that&#039 ; s the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister&#039 ; s clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn&#039 ; t do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn&#039 ; t want &quot ; my kind&quot ; there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I&#039 ; m like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, &quot ; mentally disturbed,&quot ; because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to &quot ; fix them,&quot ; so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn&#039 ; t, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I&#039 ; m one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we&#039 ; ve come, there&#039 ; s still much further to go. So. Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that&#039 ; s okay and talk about your years in activism. You&#039 ; ve been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn&#039 ; t start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn&#039 ; t come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn&#039 ; t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there&#039 ; s even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn&#039 ; t understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I&#039 ; ve heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn&#039 ; t even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say &quot ; No,&quot ; because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that&#039 ; s what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don&#039 ; t have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, &quot ; I want be like that person.&quot ; Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-- in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, &quot ; Oh, that&#039 ; s me when I grow up.&quot ; But yet, then I find out that they&#039 ; re either the joke or they&#039 ; re, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Okay, well, that&#039 ; s not me.&quot ; So, I&#039 ; m not like that, but you know, here I am, that&#039 ; s who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn&#039 ; t alone and there&#039 ; s a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we&#039 ; ve been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I&#039 ; ve been around forever (laughs). It&#039 ; s just so something that hasn&#039 ; t been known, that&#039 ; s all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There&#039 ; s some tribes that don&#039 ; t even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn&#039 ; t have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Friedman: Wow. That&#039 ; s really interesting. And I&#039 ; m glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn&#039 ; t say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don&#039 ; t agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they&#039 ; re the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, &quot ; Hey, they&#039 ; re like me and you know what, they&#039 ; re okay. That&#039 ; s an engineer, that&#039 ; s a medical doctor and that&#039 ; s a lawyer,&quot ; you know? &quot ; This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it&#039 ; s not so bad.&quot ; So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn&#039 ; t start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can&#039 ; t remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I&#039 ; m here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, &quot ; Oh, that&#039 ; s the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff,&quot ; but there&#039 ; s so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let&#039 ; s say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I&#039 ; ve worked, I&#039 ; ve had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, &quot ; Get that thing out of my hospital.&quot ; So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she&#039 ; s permanently disabled, because she didn&#039 ; t receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn&#039 ; t make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community ; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they&#039 ; re no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn&#039 ; t know how to deal with this. I didn&#039 ; t know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I&#039 ; d tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop--help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you&#039 ; re talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn&#039 ; t want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I&#039 ; ve never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual that&#039 ; s on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that&#039 ; s been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there&#039 ; s a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they&#039 ; re wondering, you know, &quot ; Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?&quot ; Um, you know, and, &quot ; Can she have her name change? Can she get women&#039 ; s clothing? Can be isolated so she&#039 ; s protected away from the general population?&quot ; All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state&#039 ; s laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it--we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year&#039 ; s. So, she was like, &quot ; No, no, no, no.&quot ; (both laugh) So, of course I&#039 ; ve moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, &quot ; You know, I&#039 ; m an--I&#039 ; m an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?&quot ; So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, &quot ; What can I do to come?&quot ; (laughs) You know? &quot ; What can I do when I get out here?&quot ; (laughs) &quot ; Where can I go?&quot ; He&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t worry, we&#039 ; ll put you to work.&quot ; So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, &quot ; Hey, it&#039 ; s along the lines,&quot ; because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn&#039 ; t too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for Medi-Cal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn&#039 ; t worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. We had, I don&#039 ; t know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we&#039 ; re remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn&#039 ; t want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I&#039 ; m sure it&#039 ; s at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there&#039 ; s less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that&#039 ; s an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I&#039 ; m a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that&#039 ; s something that people don&#039 ; t see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I&#039 ; ve got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It&#039 ; s usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it&#039 ; s so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it&#039 ; s more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the &quot ; intersectionality of marginalizations.&quot ; So, you know, that&#039 ; s why that particular day is so important to me, even though it&#039 ; s a somber day. And I&#039 ; m glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I&#039 ; m hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that&#039 ; s what the grant is called, &quot ; Fight the Hate.&quot ; (laughs) So, you know, it&#039 ; s an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I&#039 ; m actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I&#039 ; m also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I&#039 ; m also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I&#039 ; m, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I&#039 ; m privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don&#039 ; t have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we&#039 ; ve done, there&#039 ; s still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It&#039 ; s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you&#039 ; ve learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn&#039 ; t be able to get their rights. That&#039 ; s what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn&#039 ; t get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they&#039 ; re trying to pick up these supposedly &quot ; men&quot ; that dress as &quot ; women,&quot ; which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it&#039 ; s because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbians stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn&#039 ; t make sense. And believe it or not, there&#039 ; s still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I&#039 ; m with another woman, I consider--I&#039 ; m sexually attracted to other women. I&#039 ; m romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There&#039 ; s a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I&#039 ; m not a lesbian because I&#039 ; m a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they&#039 ; re out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there&#039 ; s still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we&#039 ; ve actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I&#039 ; ve looked into is--and I hope I&#039 ; m not premature in saying this. I&#039 ; ve been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I&#039 ; m doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; ll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I&#039 ; m on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there&#039 ; s more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that&#039 ; s my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that&#039 ; s where me, that&#039 ; s my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s my life--that&#039 ; s my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I&#039 ; m a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it&#039 ; s happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, &quot ; Hey, we&#039 ; ve got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you.&quot ; Friedman: That&#039 ; s awful. Pronovost: So, they&#039 ; re going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it&#039 ; s so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it&#039 ; s ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They&#039 ; re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don&#039 ; t have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people&#039 ; s HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state&#039 ; s forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA&#039 ; s a national law, It&#039 ; s not a state law (laughs). They shouldn&#039 ; t be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the &quot ; Don&#039 ; t Say Gay Bill&quot ; in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida&#039 ; s bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we&#039 ; re going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say &quot ; You&#039 ; re gay.&quot ; There&#039 ; s another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that&#039 ; s very similar to Texas&#039 ; s bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, &quot ; Oh, it&#039 ; s become a &#039 ; popular thing.&#039 ; &quot ; It&#039 ; s not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that&#039 ; s why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months&#039 ; time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they&#039 ; re--the thing that I&#039 ; m looking at is I&#039 ; m hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that&#039 ; s my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that&#039 ; s more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we&#039 ; ll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; s that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there&#039 ; s certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what&#039 ; s right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there&#039 ; s even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You&#039 ; re looking at very, um, I don&#039 ; t like to use this because I don&#039 ; t like to use somebody&#039 ; s name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don&#039 ; t like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let&#039 ; s take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, &quot ; Trumping somebody&quot ; is overcoming is somebody. So that&#039 ; s what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don&#039 ; t like people like me. You know, I&#039 ; ve had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they&#039 ; re having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That&#039 ; s the only thing that they can&#039 ; t change because that&#039 ; s a legal document, but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, &quot ; Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max.&quot ; And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that&#039 ; s not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren&#039 ; t, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That&#039 ; s the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there&#039 ; s a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it&#039 ; s mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, &quot ; granola-ish,&quot ; if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It&#039 ; s very similar. The fight&#039 ; s the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they&#039 ; ve raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag&#039 ; s never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I&#039 ; m hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you&#039 ; ve already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I&#039 ; ve learned so much it&#039 ; s hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I&#039 ; ve had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world&#039 ; s largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- &quot ; Where where&#039 ; s the donuts and coffee?&quot ; (laughs). That was the type of look I got. And, &quot ; Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?&quot ; When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man&#039 ; s field and being a woman trying to make it in a man&#039 ; s field. And, and so I don&#039 ; t--[connection froze]--People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that&#039 ; s what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that&#039 ; s one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can&#039 ; t go out there. I can mention about it, but I can&#039 ; t go out there and say, &quot ; You know, we need more protections for trans women of color.&quot ; I can say that, but, you know, I don&#039 ; t experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I&#039 ; m not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that&#039 ; s the main thing I&#039 ; ve learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn&#039 ; t just about any one person, it&#039 ; s about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we&#039 ; ve covered so much. (both laugh). I don&#039 ; t know. I don&#039 ; t think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It&#039 ; s a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we&#039 ; ve done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I&#039 ; m just happy to be here. Like I said, that that&#039 ; s my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I&#039 ; m hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you&#039 ; ve been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You&#039 ; re very welcome. And it&#039 ; s my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it&#039 ; s our pleasure (both laugh). https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pronovost, Leea. Interview April 8, 2022 Description An account of the resource Leea Pronovost was a transgender activist and has advocated for transgender and LGBTQIA+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Most recently residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost was a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she worked as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chaired the Gender Advocacy Project, and was a grant writer. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-18 Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights Transgender people -- Civil rights Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leea Pronovost Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) Springfield (Mass.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Leea Pronovost Activists and activism Community history History Department internship LGBTQIA+ experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Faye A. Jonason Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leslee K. Roberts OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Roberts, Leslee K. Interview November 11, 2022. SC027-23 0:38:15 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Community oral histories CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm United States. Marine Corps Poway (Calif.) Women marines Korean War, 1950-1953 Veterans -- United States Telephone operators Leslee K. Roberts Faye A. Jonason mp4 RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29.mp4 1:|16(2)|32(7)|45(3)|64(2)|86(17)|113(4)|144(2)|174(4)|195(17)|225(13)|257(15)|284(3)|310(18)|335(4)|374(2)|406(7)|436(16)|459(15)|493(8)|511(16)|545(5)|594(12)|616(5)|639(6)|682(5)|719(11)|736(4)|753(13)|808(4)|852(2)|898(2)|932(5)|953(11)|989(11)|1019(4)|1050(9)|1089(10)|1156(10)|1167(16) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/73ed728127e92b4e01be2617427312f6.mp4 Other video English 0 Entering the Marine Corps/ Boot camp training Leslee Roberts discusses her decision to join the Marine Corps during the Vietnam War. She recounts growing up in Cleveland, OH and how she had originally joined the Sisters of Charity, but that her independent personality made her a difficult fit to become a nun. Her brother who had ambitions to join the Marine Corps later introduced her to a recruiter and she enlisted. Leslee also discusses her boot camp training at Parris Island and the strict grooming rules that were expected of women Marines. Cleveland (Ohio) ; Marine corps ; Nuns ; Parris Island (S.C.) ; Sisters of Charity ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Vietnam War ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 349 Assignment at Camp Pendleton Leslee Roberts discusses being assigned to Camp Pendleton in 1966 or 1967. She was around twenty-four years old. She worked in the Marine Corps Exchange and trained other Marines due to her previous work experience. It was during this period in which she met her husband. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 510 Working as a switchboard operator Leslee Roberts recounts her work as a switchboard operator in the Marines. She began this work prior to joining the Marines when she worked at the Salvation Army’s hospital. She briefly explains the technology behind the switchboard. She describes the most enjoyable part of the work was interacting with other people and learning about their day-to-day lives. Leslee also describes the Marine Corps uniforms that were worn during the summertime and wintertime. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Marine Corps uniforms ; Military uniforms ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Switchboard operator ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 746 Women Marine barracks at Camp Pendleton Leslee Roberts discusses living at the Women Marine barracks when she was assigned to Camp Pendleton. She describes the experience as unpleasant and lived there for less than a year before moving off base. She explains that the Woman Marine barracks were “squad based” and that Marines had to maintain their quarters to strict regulations. Leslee also briefly describes the social life in the barracks and how rank and rules affected daily life for the Marines. Barracks ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military ; Women Marine barracks 0 1042 Marriage Leslee Roberts describes her marriage to her husband who she met while assigned to Camp Pendleton. Her husband was a Gunnery Sergeant. They moved to Oceanside, CA after getting married and lived in Oceanside for five years before moving to Poway, CA. She explains that she continued to work for the Marine Corps Exchange after getting married. She also recounts the various military regulations that she and her husband had to jump through in order to get married. She explains that due to her low rank and her gender, she had to ask permission to marry her husband from her Commanding Officer. She also explains that she received an honorable discharge once she became pregnant. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Gunnery Sergeant ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Marriage ; Military regulations ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Poway (Calif.) ; Pregnancy ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 1318 Living in San Diego County Leslee Roberts describes her current life in San Diego County. She has lived in the same house in Poway, CA since 1972. She explains how Poway was a new community and that she enjoyed watching it grow. She recalls participating in events, greeting new citizens in Poway, and watching the construction of various developments and schools. Community center ; Developming community ; North County San Diego ; Poway (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County ; Schools 0 1545 Reflecting on the Marine Corps Leslee Roberts reflects on the Marine Corps from a gender lens. She explains that while women were seen as second-class citizens during the Vietnam War, that men and women both enlist for the same reasons. She expresses her how she is glad to see women being granted the same honor and privileges as men in the military in the twenty-first century. Gender ; Marine Corps ; Sexism ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 1676 The community of Poway, CA Leslee Roberts continues to reflects on the community of Poway, CA. She recalls the history of Poway’s schools that eventually led to the formation of Poway Unified School District. She also discusses the fight to create a community center and a community pool. Leslee also discusses the complicated relationship between North County and the City of San Diego, such as North County citizens having to abide by San Diego tax laws or relying on San Diego to fix their streets. Community center ; Developing community ; North County San Diego ; Poway (Calif.) ; Poway Unified School District ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County ; Schools ; Taxes 0 Oral history An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development. Faye Jonason: Good afternoon. It is November 29th, 2002―22, and we are at the&#13 ; Marine Corps Mechanized Museum. And I am interviewing―my name is Faye Jonason&#13 ; and I’m interviewing Leslee Roberts, and we’re doing this for CSU San Marcos’s&#13 ; Program for Oral History and for Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton’s Oral&#13 ; History Archives. So, thank you for being here.&#13 ; &#13 ; Leslee Roberts: My pleasure.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And I’m going to ask you your name—your full name—and for you to spell&#13 ; your last name, please.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes. My name is Leslee Kaye Roberts. That’s R-O-B-E-R-T-S.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And you were in the Marine Corps!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes,&#13 ; &#13 ; ma’am.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, I’d like to know, very much, how you came about the decision and&#13 ; how you came to the Marine Corps.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (sighs) That’s a bit of a story. Um, number one, I have a―I had a&#13 ; brother and it was his dream to become a Marine. He was about four years younger&#13 ; than I and that’s all he ever talked about. Number one. That was not originally&#13 ; my ambition. I joined the Sisters of Charity to become a nun and that did not&#13 ; work out too well. I’m very independent individual, had hard time conforming.&#13 ; So, I was told that I would not fit with the Sisters of Charity. So, I left.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Now this was in Cleveland?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: This was in Cleveland. Uh, like&#13 ; &#13 ; I was, uh, in my twenties, and I had no job, and I bounced around for a while,&#13 ; and my brother—bless his heart—kept telling me “Join the Marine Corps. Join the&#13 ; Marine Corps.” It was something that he had desired and something that he worked&#13 ; at for—all through his high school years. He even knew the, um, recruiter, okay?&#13 ; So, he introduced me to the recruiter and the young man convinced me&#13 ; that—what–what’s three years—okay? So, at the time I was doing nothing, and I&#13 ; said, all right. And I put my hand in the air and I became a Marine.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (laughs) What did your family think about that?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: They weren’t too happy. My mom—she always went along with whatever&#13 ; decision I made,&#13 ; &#13 ; within reason. My dad took it very hard. It was during the Vietnam War, and he&#13 ; even laid his head in my lap and cried, “Please don’t do this!” But it was too&#13 ; late. I already had my hand in the air and I belonged to the United States of America.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (chuckles) Okay. So, what happened next?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I went to bootcamp!&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Where?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Parris Island, and spent a good s–almost eight weeks—I guess it was—in training.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: What did they train you to do?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: To be honest, as I kind of mentioned here before, um, the whole idea of&#13 ; boot camp wasn’t any different than becoming a sister for Sisters of Charity.&#13 ; (Jonason laughs) The whole idea of both institutions was to take my personality,&#13 ; take me&#13 ; &#13 ; (points to herself) away and to think as one individual. I was not allowed to&#13 ; have individual thoughts or ideas. And the Marine Corps was basically the same.&#13 ; You were to think as one unit and not as a person, but as one unit.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And so, you’re training―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: In–in the Marine Corps? Boot camp is basically the same. There was a&#13 ; lot of, uh, book learning to learn whatever. There was a lot of marching,&#13 ; learning to follow rules. Um, I don’t know if I can be any more specific than that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did they teach—you know—I know the Marine Corps taught makeup to some women.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (shaking her head) No. I was never taught about makeup.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: You were—you weren’t taught ―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: You weren’t even allowed to wear makeup.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (clears her throat) Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Okay? The—one of the things I remember the most is your hair had to be short.&#13 ; &#13 ; It could touch the collar (points to her collarbone) but not cover the collar.&#13 ; But, again, I didn’t follow those rules and I got away with it.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Hm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (sighs) I have a hard time conforming, still do.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: The rule was it could not—it could–it could touch but not cover, you&#13 ; know, the–the collar (gestures to her shoulder area). So, all I did was wear it&#13 ; up. And as long as I got up every day before Reveille was called, I made sure my&#13 ; hair was up and I had eyebrows on, because you weren’t allowed to wear make up either.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh. (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (shrugs) So―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, you got your training in Parris Island.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And then what happened? Where did you go after that?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, I was given leave, for two weeks and I—while I was in boot camp, I&#13 ; had choices. I didn’t&#13 ; &#13 ; necessarily—I wouldn’t necessarily get those choices. But, I asked for San&#13 ; Diego, California. And I got California! (she smiles)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And why did you ask for San Diego, California?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Because I’d never been out of Ohio.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh, okay. And did they say―I guess they sent you to San Diego.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: They did, all the way to Camp Pendleton.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. And what year was that? Do you know?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I believe it was ’66, ’67, yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. And how–how were you assigned your job?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, (sighs) that’s a good question. I assumed my job—Number one, I was&#13 ; a bit of older recruit, okay? And I had experience in working—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: You said you were in your twenties.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I was around twenty-four.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: So, that made me a little bit older than most recruits coming in. They&#13 ; were eighteen, nineteen—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —years old. Because I had the experience, they took that experience and&#13 ; they gave me an M.O.S., which was forty-one eleven, which was an Exchange person&#13 ; accou–accountant and Commissary accountant.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And you say you also did some kind of interviewing or training other Marines.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: When I got into working for—in the Exchange—I did—I interviewed people&#13 ; to work in the Exchange, okay?&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: And hired them. I worked in Personnel.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: And handled most stuff regarding that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And how long did you do that?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: For the three years that I was in.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And what do you remember best about your time at Camp Pendleton during&#13 ; that time.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I met my husband.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Ah! (chuckles) And how did you meet your husband?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: He also worked&#13 ; &#13 ; in the Exchange. Of course, he was higher up than I was. And, he ran his own&#13 ; store. And, um, at times I was a switchboard―I would work the switchboard and&#13 ; relieve at lunch time. And we got to communicating on the switchboard, and he&#13 ; finally come over and introduced himself.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: And I don’t have to tell you, from that point on, we clicked!&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. Tell me about your switchboard work, because that doesn’t exist&#13 ; anymore, does it?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: What was that like?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: ―not that I know of. Um, I enjoyed it, okay? It was work that I also&#13 ; did at the hospital when I worked for the Salvation Army (unintelligible). And&#13 ; um, so because I had that experience it was on my record, so to speak. And when&#13 ; I went to work for the Exchange, I kind of relieved people. I worked in the office.&#13 ; &#13 ; We were all in the same facility. And I would relieve them for lunch, or if&#13 ; someone called in sick, or whatever, so―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: How does the―most―myself, I have never run a switchboard.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: How would I go about doing that?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, that’s kind of hard to say! (laughs) And that’s—you know—a&#13 ; switchboard! Um, it was just another way of communicating from phone to phone&#13 ; within the offices. And each phone had a number, and there was a number on the&#13 ; board, and there were the cords that you would plug in outside or you could plug&#13 ; them into each other.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh, okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, it’s like something you―like—I’m trying to think of what they’re called.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I can’t think of anything at this time that would―I could compare it&#13 ; to, except if you had a–a phone with buttons, you know.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Yeah. Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: You just plugged them in!&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Interesting, interesting. And so, you were here for three years and what&#13 ; &#13 ; were your uniforms that you were required to wear while you were working and&#13 ; while you were doing other―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I always was in uniform.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Which was?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Summertime, wintertime. I worked with the uniform.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: What―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I was in the Marine Corps.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: —what kind of uniform?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: In the summertime, we had a–a light uniform, fit for the weather. In&#13 ; the winter, we had a much heavier, darker-colored uniform.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. And you always had to wear a cover outside?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Outside, always.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. Is there anything about that work experience that you would like&#13 ; to tell us about?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, you got to meet a lot of people!&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Yeah?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Always. And uh, it was always—it was a bit fun, in a way, because you&#13 ; could for months communicate with an individual and talk and say, “How was your day?”&#13 ; &#13 ; and “Oh, I just had a baby,” or whatever, okay? And never, ever see their faces.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Uh, (chuckles) okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: So, that was kind of different. Yes. And it was always a fun experience&#13 ; when they were able to come and say “Hi, I’m so-and-so. I work for―” whatever.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, were there civilians that came in and shopped where you were?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, absolutely! I mean, this was a Commissar―uh, well, at the time it&#13 ; was an Exchange, the Military Exchange. And of course, all civilians, troops―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Their families.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Their families, absolutely. Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Were there any special events that associated with your–your work?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Can you be more specific?&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did they hold any special events at—I guess—at the exchange.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No. We–we celebrated the Marine Corps birthday, uh―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did they close down the store? Did you have spe―I mean, what did they&#13 ; do for that?&#13 ; &#13 ; (clears her throat)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Bec–being civilian, not a lot, okay? Because not only the military&#13 ; shopped there ; their families did, which was not military, okay? Um, the―we&#13 ; would be closed on holidays. And, we were just like any outside, whether you&#13 ; were working at Target or J.C. Penny or whatever.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. Um―&#13 ; &#13 ; (A second interviewer, Maryellen Cortellini, seems to be asking Leslee a&#13 ; question, because Leslee looks to her right, away from Faye.)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: (less audible) Where did you live when you first got to Camp Pendleton?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I didn’t hear the question.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Excuse me. What was the question? (It sounds as though Jonason turns to&#13 ; ask the Cortellini to repeat the question.)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Where did she live?&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh, where did you live when you first came to Camp Pendleton?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I lived in the W.M., Women Marine’s barracks. Um, it was not my cup of&#13 ; tea. And when I was able, I moved off base. It wasn’t quite, um, legal, but I did.&#13 ; &#13 ; I had a― (sighs) there was a―I can’t remember her rank. I think she was a Staff&#13 ; Sergeant, and she was being transferred to, um, Virginia, and she had pets, and&#13 ; she knew I did not like living in the barracks with a bunch of teenagers. So,&#13 ; she offered me her home if I would take care of her pets! And—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —I moved off base, oh, within eight months or so and lived in Carlsbad.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: And took care of her home and her pets.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, how long had you stayed in the Women Marine barracks themselves?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, actually, it wasn’t even a full year.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. And these were wooden buildings?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No. At the―these were new barracks that they had just recently built.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, they were, what, squad based?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Squad based! Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: How many―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: A great big―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: ―bunks?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Well, I think we had about twenty in the squad bay I lived in. And you&#13 ; were judged—you were put in the squad bay according to your rank.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And so, you’re–you’re one bunk above and below?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Exactly.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And you were required to keep them a certain way.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Absolutely.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Regulation.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: You had–you had, um, I can’t remember the exact term. Forgive me.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Junk on the bunk?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No, uh―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (laughs) That’s what I was told.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: We―well, not then! We had to maintain and keep them clean, okay? And&#13 ; so, it was a–a group thing that was done once a week, no matter what your rank&#13 ; was. You were required, you know. Wash floors, windows, whatever.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did you also do other things besides your job in maintaining the–the&#13 ; barracks? Did you―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh! Had a good time! (both she and Jonason chuckle)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Well, you did more than that, I know! (Roberts laughs) Did they have&#13 ; you do—picking&#13 ; &#13 ; up around the barracks, and―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: ―all that kind of stuff?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes. We had, um, um―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Field day?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Outside to maintain the—you know—the grass, and the bushes and&#13 ; whatever. Yes, that was also part of our requirement. We were to treat it like&#13 ; it was our home. And we would do those things if we were within our own home. So.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Had you ever gone to the Green Hat Club?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No. The Green Hat Club was after me.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Okay? I’m not sure what year. Yes, there were a lot of, uh–uh, what do&#13 ; you call them, um―&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: (inaudible)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —officers clubs. There were different clubs for different rank and of&#13 ; course I was a peon, so I―till I made sergeant, but yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: How did ch–becoming sergeant change your life?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It gave―it made me more independent.&#13 ; &#13 ; I didn’t have to follow some of the rules and regulations.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, did you live―you said you lived in the barracks about a year. So,&#13 ; you lived in the–in the Staff Sergeant’s house about two?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: About two years. Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. And then what did―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Not legally, but I did. (both she and Jonason laugh.)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Well, nowadays, you’d get permissions or something. Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I’m not sure (smiles wide).&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (laughs) Um, is there any other part of that work that you’d like to&#13 ; share with us?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: As far as the military is concerned?&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: In a way, um, it was―I think once I left the military, I was more&#13 ; conscious of my responsibility when I was in the Marine Corps.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: The motto of a W.M., which we were called—Women Marines—was to release&#13 ; a fighting man. And of course, it was during the Vietnam War, and it was a&#13 ; &#13 ; difficult time for the United States and for everyone. So, I didn’t think about&#13 ; it a lot but once I left the military, I realized what my job was or had been,&#13 ; to help win that war.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: You–you appreciated it more?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Much more.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And so, then when you left you got married?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes, I did.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And where did you go?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: In fact, I don’t know. I don’t remember all the times, but my husband&#13 ; who was stationed here at Camp Pendleton and his career was basically here,&#13 ; okay? He was a Gunnery Sergeant and he owned a home in Oceanside. And so, when&#13 ; we—naturally when we got married, I moved into his home in Oceanside.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And how long did you stay there?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (sighs) Uh, quite a few years. We didn’t move out—I guess I was there&#13 ; &#13 ; at least five years, at least five years, and then we bought a home elsewhere in&#13 ; San Diego. He retired.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Why did you like San Diego?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: He liked San Diego.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did you?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes, I guess so. My children were born here. It became my home. Uh,&#13 ; yes. Yes. I liked it.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did you work outside the home once you were married?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I did, but not until my children got a little older. I actually went to&#13 ; work for the Marine Corps Exchange. (both she and Jonason laugh)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. And how long did you do that?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, now you’re asking a question you have to think about. It was a few years.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Yeah?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I would say five or six years. Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. Well, that’s good.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: What was the Marine Corps reaction to your announcement that you&#13 ; wanted to get married?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I–I—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh, you said—Yeah!—How did you―when you decided&#13 ; &#13 ; to get married, there were regulations that you had to jump through before you&#13 ; could do that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (chuckles) Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Both you and your husband.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Being―being a–a low rank, number one, and being a woman Marine, I had&#13 ; to ask permission from my C.O., the sergeant in charge, and—which I had to do.&#13 ; Uh, between you and me, I did it because it was considered one of my&#13 ; responsibilities. Otherwise, I thought it was a silly rule.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (chuckles) And your husband had to do the same thing, right?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Well, he did. He did. And my―for me, he did it for me. Not so much for&#13 ; himself. He’d been married before. His first wife had passed. So, um, he was a–a&#13 ; bit youn–older than I am or was. And um, so no he didn’t. But, he did,&#13 ; &#13 ; for me. Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: He asked permission for you.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Right. We went together.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh! Very interesting. And were there any other situa―parts of that that&#13 ; were required?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No, because when we married, there–there was no problem. But because of&#13 ; our age, okay, we wanted a family. And the–the motto of the Marine Corps was if&#13 ; we wanted you to have a child, we’d issued you one.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: I see.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: So, as soon as I became pregnant, I was automatically dis–discharged.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (coughs) Excuse me.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I got an honorable discharge, but, yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Huh.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: So, that’s how I left.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Interesting. And were you―after you were married, you moved into his&#13 ; house. Were you still a Marine at that poin–time?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: I’m trying to clarify that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, until I became―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Pregnant.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: ―pregnant. Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. (&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: We lived there for two children.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (chuckles)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: He retired. He went to work for the Post Office and we moved into San&#13 ; Diego area.&#13 ; &#13 ; Terry Norwood: Where were your children—(barely audible) first and second—born?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Camp Pendleton, at the old hospital.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Because he was still in the military? Or―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No. We were―because he was what is considered a lifer, someone who put&#13 ; in twenty-two years of his life. He continued to have privileges—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Ah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —military privileges.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, he wasn’t in the Corps still, when they were born?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And what did he do?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: My husband went to work for the U.S. Post Office.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm. He took the test and passed and–and continued to work there for&#13 ; thirty years.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Wonderful!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And I understand that you’re still living in San Diego area.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, actually I live in the same house.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (chuckles) Oh, my goodness!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Live in the same house. We bought a new home outside of Poway and I’ve&#13 ; lived there ever since. I think it was 1972, or something like that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Wow! You must like it there.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It’s paid for! (she chuckles and Jonason laughs) For sure!&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Are there parts of the community that you enjoy more than others?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: In–in San Diego? San Diego?—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: In Poway, San Diego County.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, you know, I had two other children born there, and, um, it—number&#13 ; one, it was very new. We were one of the first housing developments in the area.&#13 ; So, basically, I watched it grow (raises her hands to indicate something&#13 ; growing) into this huge community.&#13 ; &#13 ; And, um, I felt like it was home. And yes, I do. I like it there. I can’t think&#13 ; of any place else.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: (unintelligible, but sounds like “Chopped Liver”)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, I’m not sure. A pool, oh (shrugs)—as far as activities—(looking at&#13 ; Cortellini) is that–is that what we’re talking about? Okay—&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: What do you like about the community?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh! I did—yes, I’m talking about the beginning of living in the&#13 ; community and why I stayed there. Uh, I’m very active. Well, I won’t say active&#13 ; but I have a lot of activities within the community since I’ve lived there. So—&#13 ; I like to swim and do water aerobics, and—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: This is a community pool, I take it? Or—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes, it is. Number one, I–I got to watch the community grow. Like I&#13 ; said, we were one of the first developments in the area, housing developments,&#13 ; and so I got to watch&#13 ; &#13 ; it grow.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: There must be a story about being one of the first of the development.&#13 ; Was there—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: —an event or something?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —number one, now you want me to be silly? It was a ch—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: No. (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, okay. (laughs also) No, it was just a very new community and it was&#13 ; fun greeting all the new people and watching different developments grow,&#13 ; watching schools being built and my children being able to go to those schools.&#13 ; I know—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did you get to pick specific flooring and that type of thing in your&#13 ; house wh—at that time? Was that something that—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Pretty much.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: —Yeah?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Pretty much so. Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I mean, the house was built and then I did what I wanted to the inside&#13 ; of it (smiles wide) and outside, of course.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: But that wasn’t with the builder, though. That was on your own, right?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: That was on my own.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Interesting. Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (apparently she turns to Cortellini) Are there other questions that you&#13 ; would like to see asked?&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Um, it would be nice if she (rest of question is inaudible, but&#13 ; seems to be talking about entering something into a document)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Well, we’ll have that in the–in the file. Um—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Just the fact that she left her close-knit family and friends, and&#13 ; her small town of Eastlake, Ohio to travel all the way to South Carolina to&#13 ; enlist in Marine Corps bootcamp. How brave and courageous as a young woman to&#13 ; make that monumental decision.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (turning her head from Cortellini back to Jonason, smiling) She does—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Well, I think she–she went in from the frying pan into the fire—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: The fire.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: —didn’t you! (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Amen! (laughs also)&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: But she’s a cast iron skillet.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (turning to Norwood): Pardon me?&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: But you’re a cast iron skillet.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, is that—Oh, I–I’ve never quite thought of myself that way, but—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (continuing to laugh) Yeah, but hey—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —I will take the compliment. (turns back to Jonason)&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: And the other thing I think you could give perspective on is how the&#13 ; military has grown since you’ve been here.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, absolutely. Uh, as–for women? Yes, absolutely. Uh, it was—we&#13 ; &#13 ; were considered second class citizens back in 1966. Like I think I said&#13 ; previously, we were given the title of releasing a fighter–a fighting man, okay?&#13 ; And we were supposed to, uh—our jobs basically were to fill in where the men&#13 ; would have to leave and we would fill in and take their jobs. So, it was—it’s&#13 ; different today. Women join the military exactly the reason that men do. They&#13 ; want the—They want to do something for their country, number one. I can’t speak&#13 ; for all of them, but yes. I think they—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —they have the same honor and privileges that they–you–this country&#13 ; offers their military. So, yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: If you had a message for a young Marine today, what would it be?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Whoa! (Jonason laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Um, I really wouldn’t have a message for them. It—Number one, I believe it’s&#13 ; something that they—nowadays—let me put it this way. Nowadays, I think both men&#13 ; and women join the military because they want t–to, because it offers them&#13 ; something that they desire. Back in the day of, say, 1966, uh, men were drafted.&#13 ; Okay? And women were second class citizens. But they did it anyways, (shrugs)&#13 ; whatever their purpose—for their country ; for themselves ; for their family. So,&#13 ; times have changed.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay! Well, thank you very much.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: You’re very welcome.&#13 ; &#13 ; (the video then stops and starts, and cuts off the beginning portion of what&#13 ; Leslee Roberts is saying, but she continues speaking, turning to Cortellini now:)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —San Diego people. Or we could become Poway people living in San&#13 ; &#13 ; Diego.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: Mm. Okay. And that, I can’t tell you how huge that is to the&#13 ; education—well, this is not necessar—this is going off on a tangent—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No, no. It had a–had a big—yes. Because—&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: It did!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: just a community—&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: It did.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Mira Mesa, down the road is San Diego.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: So, we were given a choice, and we made it. And we made the Poway&#13 ; U—part, we helped make Poway Unified School what they are.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: That right there tells—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Is key.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —what this woman is about. So, to–I–just—and—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I never thought about it, but—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: (inaudible due to Jonason asking a further question)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, you’re saying that there was no Poway schools when you—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Poway, yes. Poway had their own little, uh—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: No, it wasn’t.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —They didn’t even have a high—They—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: They didn’t have a—They were not a unified school district until late—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No, they weren’t. Until much later.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: But, did–did they have a school?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh yes. They had several, um, elementary schools. What was that? (turns&#13 ; from Jonason to Cortellini) They had Poway High—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: They had one—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: — and one middle school.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —one middle school.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: And they, and they were—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (turns to Jonason) Midland. Yeah, it was Midland. (holds up her left hand)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: They were part of Escondido. They weren’t really in their s–unified&#13 ; school district,—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No, they weren’t considered—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: but they were—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: But they—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It was—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: And then we had (inaudible)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It was–Actually, it was–it was considered—it was kind of a country town.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It was just this country little, country city. They were themselves,&#13 ; okay? And, um, they did have schools for their kids and whatnot. But that was&#13 ; very small, very limited. I can’t even begin to tell you—Even now, there’s only&#13 ; one main—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Okay. I’m st—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —road, going through Poway, and it’ll always be the main th–main road&#13 ; through Poway because everyone built to the sidewalks! There’s no way of&#13 ; widening it. (Jonason laughs) There’s no way of expanding it. (Jonason clears&#13 ; her throat) It’s all the way up to, uh, Ramona, bay–basically.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: So, now, I’m going to the Poway Museum and the R.B. Museum to see&#13 ; what historical data is there, because based on more—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Now—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —info about the school district and how it came to be, because—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: See,&#13 ; &#13 ; now Rancho Bernardo was—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —that is really—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Rancho Bernardo was always there. It was considered more—back in&#13 ; (lowers voice) those (back to speaking voice) days, it was, uh, for seniors.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Seniors.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It was more of a senior place.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: It was a community planned—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: And um, yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: And, uh, they did attend, those that were–that lived in, say, Rancho&#13 ; Bernardo. They did attend the Poway school. Okay? Those were the—That was the&#13 ; only school district around. San Diego was a little far ou– far away for them.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: But–but it wasn’t even a formed Unified School District in the early 70s.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Till much later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Okay. And then, also, um, you’re–you’re being modest. You haven’t&#13 ; been asked to write your history, so I get it.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (turns to Jonason and shrugs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: But just sitting here, I’m thinking of how you guys fought for the&#13 ; community center,—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —the pool that you swim in.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: You know? All the things—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And what happened with the community center?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It was a—We wanted it. They made it. Um, (sighs) how do I say it? It–it&#13 ; wa–I guess—it&#13 ; &#13 ; wasn’t—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: The city—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —exactly a community—how–how–what would you call the pool, ‘cuz I’ve&#13 ; been going there for twenty years.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Yeah. It was a community center.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It was.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Um, and the city decided to change—all that nastiness out of my&#13 ; mouth real quick—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: You can say it. I–my ears are used to it. (Jonason chuckles)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Then, um, this—When the city decided that to change their Charter&#13 ; and a lot of their zoning and who they were going to support or–or–in–like–They&#13 ; were no longer going to have a senior center. Okay? And they were—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —no longer going to have a community pool. But the community rallied—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: But it was considered growing, and they wanted to grow into something&#13 ; besides Poway which we kind of fought for.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: And, yet, they didn’t want to bring in a Y.M.C.A. They wanted to be—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —their own thing and have it be bigger. But it’s just not what the&#13 ; people wanted at the time.&#13 ; &#13 ; So, these ladies were part of the movement.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Well, back then, yeah, we kind of steadfast and we voted.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: How were you—How old were your kids at that time?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh they were—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Oh, this was only like ten years ago.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yeah. Well—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: But–but I—but I’ve only known you for maybe ten—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Sss—Yeah. Bu–bu–well, when they started building schools—This was the&#13 ; thing that–that we fought for. Number one was technically, technically I live in&#13 ; San Diego. Okay? But Poway is our school district. Poway is our hospitals. Poway&#13 ; is, you know, all the stuff that makes a city a city. We were able to stay in&#13 ; that group, and—well, Rancho Bernardo, too. But we—whereas just down the road&#13 ; about three or four miles, we have San Diego, Mira Mesa,&#13 ; &#13 ; some of the other ones.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: It’s very—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: They’re all San Diego, so they have to follow the San Diego taxes, the&#13 ; San Diego whatever, whatever.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Well, we do too.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No, no, I know. But I’m trying to think of things.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: It’s very convoluted up where we are. It took me a while to wrap my&#13 ; head around—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Everything.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —how in the world could we be part of Poway Unified when we’re a San&#13 ; Di—city of San Diego address. It was really complex.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: We—But we kind of fought for that. In fact, I can remember Mount Carmel—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Well, I’m grateful (chuckles)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —Mount Carmel wa—uh, all the kids in my–in our area went to Poway High,&#13 ; went to Midland Junior High, okay? S–and–and the elementary school. And my kids&#13 ; started off at Me–Meadowbrook. Meadowbrook? (looks toward Jonason)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Whatever, for kindergarten through ninth, (Jonason coughs) or whatever&#13 ; it was, until we fought for our own schools (Jonason coughs) and our own area.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Hhm, that’s interesting.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: So, I mean, yeah. I can remember when they built&#13 ; &#13 ; the high school.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Do you?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Carmel Mountain.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: You’re a legend in my community, girl.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (laughs) I don’t know about that, but— (Jonason laughs) we&#13 ; didn’t—Poway, um, was recognized as having a very good school system, okay? Or,&#13 ; whatever. And we wanted to continue with what Poway was giving to our students.&#13 ; Where San Diego was—I mean, look at San Diego. San Diego is a huge place, and&#13 ; it’s gotten huger, so—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Is Poway considered part of North County?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes. So—&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: And, for many, many, many, many, many years, Rancho Bernardo, where I&#13 ; live—She lives in Poway, but sh–very close to R.B., um, but she’s not affected&#13 ; like we are because she’s in Poway. So, R.B. is the farthest north of San Diego.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: San Diego, yep (nodding).&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: She is right&#13 ; &#13 ; beneath us.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: On the edge, Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: We are North County and we are–don’t—We have to fight for the city of&#13 ; San Diego to fix our streets, to—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: To do whatever.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: To–to do whatever we need—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Right.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: —because we’re so far north. They forget about us. They’ll take our tax revenue—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, they do take that!&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: —but they’ll forget about us, which is one of–just one of many reasons&#13 ; why we wanted to integrate into our own sch–school system up there.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, no. I—&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: Because it was so small, we could be more vocal. We could give more&#13 ; input into a smaller school district versus being a part of San Diego.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Well, parents were included. You were invited to come to the–to the&#13 ; school board meetings. You were, you know what I mean? You were invited to&#13 ; participate in becoming a school board member—I mean—so, you were part of it.&#13 ; Where as far as San Diego is concerned, which is—like I said—just five miles&#13 ; down the road, um, they were totally into, uh,&#13 ; &#13 ; San Diego, (shrugs) Mira Mesa and all the ones around there now. So— (shrugs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Aah, we did that a bit, I guess. I don’t— (laughs) We fought for it.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Well, it sounds like you’re a very active person in your community.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, (sighs, shaking her head), that was a long time ago. This old lady&#13 ; has settled in. (she and Jonason laugh) I’m not as active as I used to be.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: I just wanted to say. You know, when I first met Leslee, before I&#13 ; knew she was a Marine, over time, I started calling her “our fearless leader”&#13 ; (Roberts and Jonason laugh) at the pool, because she had this wonderful way of&#13 ; recruiting more people and she—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I had a mouth!&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: She singlehandedly—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: It’s a good thing!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: She–but she s—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: When I don’t agree with you, you’re gonna hear about it. (all laugh)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: She’s still humble about it. But, she singlehandedly turned a water&#13 ; aerobics, or water exercise class into a family. That’s how we became friends.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: She roped me in, and she writes–ropes in everybody!&#13 ; &#13 ; (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: Yes. She makes you feel wanted.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: She makes you feel like a family, and then makes everyone feels&#13 ; welcome, and now, they—you wouldn’t believe the size of our water aerobics.&#13 ; We’re up to forty-plus people (somewhat unintelligible, faint voice, and there&#13 ; is background traffic noise)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I know.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: And that’s the summer.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Well, I think we have around, about thirty permanent, you know, oldies&#13 ; but goodies.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: That’s—but that’s also—&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: (can’t distinguish what she says, due to crosstalk)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: In the summertime.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Seriously. I give you credit for that, and you really—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, not totally. There were—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: But, she’s—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Look at Doreen,&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: And see, that’s where&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: (unintelligible, due to crosstalk)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Doreen.&#13 ; &#13 ; (Norwood and Cortellini crosstalk ; unintelligible)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yeah. It wasn’t just me.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: (first few words unintelligible) incorporated those values, a team and—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: You feel that? Do you feel that the Marine Corps has helped you be&#13 ; organized and get people together?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I never thought about it, ‘cuz I was always a mouth.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Well, but—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Why do you think they kicked me out of the Sisterhood.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Because you needed to be a Marine. (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No. Because I didn’t fit in. (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: What did we go to the Mayor’s office for?&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: Oh, that was film week again. (next few words unintelligible)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (nodding) Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: Still! Still!&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Leslee has—I know—Leslee has been an advocate for myself,&#13 ; &#13 ; my project, my books. She—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (to Jonason) Like I said, I’m a mouth.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: She has shared my books with everybody.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (to Jonason) And sometimes, if you’re loud enough, people just don’t&#13 ; say no to you.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: I called her my agent there—she still is my agent (rest of sentence is unintelligible).&#13 ; &#13 ; https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29.xml RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/archival_objects/22626iu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Roberts, Leslee K. Interview November 11, 2022. Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-23 Subject The topic of the resource Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Korean War, 1950-1953 Switchboard operators United States. Marine Corps Veterans -- United States Women marines Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leslee K. Roberts Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Faye A. Jonason Maryellen Cortellini Terry Norwood Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Poway (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Leslee K. Roberts Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Community history North County Oral History Initiative Veteran experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a4eab2eb7098e5cb2da2844a583b4393.pdf 529a5a1d54025024f7f1fcfe7d125d1d PDF Text Text Transcript created March 31, 2023 Transcript Faye Jonason: Good afternoon. It is November 29th, 2002―22, and we are at the Marine Corps Mechanized Museum. And I am interviewing―my name is Faye Jonason and I’m interviewing Leslee Roberts, and we’re doing this for CSU San Marcos’s Program for Oral History and for Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton’s Oral History Archives. So, thank you for being here. Leslee Roberts: My pleasure. Jonason: And I’m going to ask you your name—your full name—and for you to spell your last name, please. Roberts: Yes. My name is Leslee Kaye Roberts. That’s R-O-B-E-R-T-S. Jonason: And you were in the Marine Corps! Roberts: Yes, ma’am. Jonason: So, I’d like to know, very much, how you came about the decision and how you came to the Marine Corps. Roberts: (sighs) That’s a bit of a story. Um, number one, I have a―I had a brother and it was his dream to become a Marine. He was about four years younger than I and that’s all he ever talked about. Number one. That was not originally my ambition. I joined the Sisters of Charity to become a nun and that did not work out too well. I’m very independent individual, had hard time conforming. So, I was told that I would not fit with the Sisters of Charity. So, I left. Jonason: Now this was in Cleveland? Roberts: This was in Cleveland. Uh, like I was, uh, in my twenties, and I had no job, and I bounced around for a while, and my brother—bless his heart—kept telling me “Join the Marine Corps. Join the Marine Corps.” It was something that he had desired and something that he worked at for—all through his high school years. He even knew the, um, recruiter, okay? So, he introduced me to the recruiter and the young man convinced me that—what–what’s three years—okay? So, at the time I was doing nothing, and I said, all right. And I put my hand in the air and I became a Marine. Jonason: (laughs) What did your family think about that? Roberts: They weren’t too happy. My mom—she always went along with whatever decision I made, within reason. My dad took it very hard. It was during the Vietnam War, and he even laid his head in my lap and cried, “Please don’t do this!” But it was too late. I already had my hand in the air and I belonged to the United States of America. 1 �Jonason: (chuckles) Okay. So, what happened next? Roberts: I went to bootcamp! Jonason: Where? Roberts: Parris Island, and spent a good s–almost eight weeks—I guess it was—in training. Jonason: What did they train you to do? Roberts: To be honest, as I kind of mentioned here before, um, the whole idea of boot camp wasn’t any different than becoming a sister for Sisters of Charity. (Jonason laughs) The whole idea of both institutions was to take my personality, take me (points to herself) away and to think as one individual. I was not allowed to have individual thoughts or ideas. And the Marine Corps was basically the same. You were to think as one unit and not as a person, but as one unit. Jonason: And so, you’re training― Roberts: In–in the Marine Corps? Boot camp is basically the same. There was a lot of, uh, book learning to learn whatever. There was a lot of marching, learning to follow rules. Um, I don’t know if I can be any more specific than that. Jonason: Did they teach—you know—I know the Marine Corps taught makeup to some women. Roberts: (shaking her head) No. I was never taught about makeup. Jonason: You were—you weren’t taught ― Roberts: You weren’t even allowed to wear makeup. Jonason: (clears her throat) Okay. Roberts: Okay? The—one of the things I remember the most is your hair had to be short. It could touch the collar (points to her collarbone) but not cover the collar. But, again, I didn’t follow those rules and I got away with it. Jonason: Hm. Roberts: (sighs) I have a hard time conforming, still do. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: The rule was it could not—it could–it could touch but not cover, you know, the–the collar (gestures to her shoulder area). So, all I did was wear it up. And as long as I got up every day before Reveille was called, I made sure my hair was up and I had eyebrows on, because you weren’t allowed to wear make up either. Jonason: Oh. (laughs) Roberts: (shrugs) So― Jonason: So, you got your training in Parris Island. 2 �Roberts: Yes. Jonason: And then what happened? Where did you go after that? Roberts: Uh, I was given leave, for two weeks and I—while I was in boot camp, I had choices. I didn’t necessarily—I wouldn’t necessarily get those choices. But, I asked for San Diego, California. And I got California! (she smiles) Jonason: And why did you ask for San Diego, California? Roberts: Because I’d never been out of Ohio. Jonason: Oh, okay. And did they say―I guess they sent you to San Diego. Roberts: They did, all the way to Camp Pendleton. Jonason: Okay. And what year was that? Do you know? Roberts: I believe it was ’66, ’67, yeah. Jonason: Okay. And how–how were you assigned your job? Roberts: Uh, (sighs) that’s a good question. I assumed my job—Number one, I was a bit of older recruit, okay? And I had experience in working— Jonason: You said you were in your twenties. Roberts: I was around twenty-four. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: So, that made me a little bit older than most recruits coming in. They were eighteen, nineteen— Jonason: Oh! Roberts: —years old. Because I had the experience, they took that experience and they gave me an M.O.S., which was forty-one eleven, which was an Exchange person accou–accountant and Commissary accountant. Jonason: And you say you also did some kind of interviewing or training other Marines. Roberts: When I got into working for—in the Exchange—I did—I interviewed people to work in the Exchange, okay? Jonason: Okay. Roberts: And hired them. I worked in Personnel. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: And handled most stuff regarding that. Jonason: And how long did you do that? 3 �Roberts: For the three years that I was in. Jonason: And what do you remember best about your time at Camp Pendleton during that time. Roberts: I met my husband. Jonason: Ah! (chuckles) And how did you meet your husband? Roberts: He also worked in the Exchange. Of course, he was higher up than I was. And, he ran his own store. And, um, at times I was a switchboard―I would work the switchboard and relieve at lunch time. And we got to communicating on the switchboard, and he finally come over and introduced himself. Jonason: Oh! Roberts: And I don’t have to tell you, from that point on, we clicked! Jonason: Okay. Tell me about your switchboard work, because that doesn’t exist anymore, does it? Roberts: No― Jonason: What was that like? Roberts: ―not that I know of. Um, I enjoyed it, okay? It was work that I also did at the hospital when I worked for the Salvation Army [unintelligible]. And um, so because I had that experience it was on my record, so to speak. And when I went to work for the Exchange, I kind of relieved people. I worked in the office. We were all in the same facility. And I would relieve them for lunch, or if someone called in sick, or whatever, so― Jonason: How does the―most―myself, I have never run a switchboard. Roberts: Yes. Jonason: How would I go about doing that? Roberts: Oh, that’s kind of hard to say! (laughs) And that’s—you know—a switchboard! Um, it was just another way of communicating from phone to phone within the offices. And each phone had a number, and there was a number on the board, and there were the cords that you would plug in outside or you could plug them into each other. Jonason: Oh, okay. Roberts: Mm-hmm. Jonason: So, it’s like something you―like—I’m trying to think of what they’re called. Roberts: I can’t think of anything at this time that would―I could compare it to, except if you had a–a phone with buttons, you know. Jonason: Yeah. Okay. 4 �Roberts: You just plugged them in! Jonason: Interesting, interesting. And so, you were here for three years and what were your uniforms that you were required to wear while you were working and while you were doing other― Roberts: I always was in uniform. Jonason: Which was? Roberts: Summertime, wintertime. I worked with the uniform. Jonason: What― Roberts: I was in the Marine Corps. Jonason: —what kind of uniform? Roberts: In the summertime, we had a–a light uniform, fit for the weather. In the winter, we had a much heavier, darker-colored uniform. Jonason: Okay. And you always had to wear a cover outside? Roberts: Outside, always. Jonason: Okay. Is there anything about that work experience that you would like to tell us about? Roberts: Oh, you got to meet a lot of people! Jonason: Yeah? Roberts: Always. And uh, it was always—it was a bit fun, in a way, because you could for months communicate with an individual and talk and say, “How was your day?” and “Oh, I just had a baby,” or whatever, okay? And never, ever see their faces. Jonason: Uh, (chuckles) okay. Roberts: So, that was kind of different. Yes. And it was always a fun experience when they were able to come and say “Hi, I’m so-and-so. I work for―” whatever. Jonason: So, were there civilians that came in and shopped where you were? Roberts: Uh, absolutely! I mean, this was a Commissar―uh, well, at the time it was an Exchange, the Military Exchange. And of course, all civilians, troops― Jonason: Their families. Roberts: Their families, absolutely. Yeah. Jonason: Were there any special events that associated with your–your work? Roberts: Can you be more specific? Jonason: Did they hold any special events at—I guess—at the exchange. 5 �Roberts: No. We–we celebrated the Marine Corps birthday, uh― Jonason: Did they close down the store? Did you have spe―I mean, what did they do for that? (clears her throat) Roberts: Bec–being civilian, not a lot, okay? Because not only the military shopped there; their families did, which was not military, okay? Um, the―we would be closed on holidays. And, we were just like any outside, whether you were working at Target or J.C. Penny or whatever. Jonason: Okay. Um― (A second interviewer, Maryellen Cortellini, seems to be asking Leslee a question, because Leslee looks to her right, away from Faye.) Cortellini: (less audible) Where did you live when you first got to Camp Pendleton? Roberts: I didn’t hear the question. Jonason: Excuse me. What was the question? (It sounds as though Jonason turns to ask the Cortellini to repeat the question.) Cortellini: Where did she live? Jonason: Oh, where did you live when you first came to Camp Pendleton? Roberts: I lived in the W.M., Women Marine’s barracks. Um, it was not my cup of tea. And when I was able, I moved off base. It wasn’t quite, um, legal, but I did. I had a― (sighs) there was a―I can’t remember her rank. I think she was a Staff Sergeant, and she was being transferred to, um, Virginia, and she had pets, and she knew I did not like living in the barracks with a bunch of teenagers. So, she offered me her home if I would take care of her pets! And— Jonason: Oh! Roberts: —I moved off base, oh, within eight months or so and lived in Carlsbad. Jonason: Oh! Roberts: And took care of her home and her pets. Jonason: So, how long had you stayed in the Women Marine barracks themselves? Roberts: Uh, actually, it wasn’t even a full year. Jonason: Okay. And these were wooden buildings? Roberts: No. At the―these were new barracks that they had just recently built. Jonason: So, they were, what, squad based? Roberts: Squad based! Mm-hmm. Jonason: How many― 6 �Roberts: A great big― Jonason: ―bunks? Roberts: Well, I think we had about twenty in the squad bay I lived in. And you were judged— you were put in the squad bay according to your rank. Jonason: And so, you’re–you’re one bunk above and below? Roberts: Exactly. Jonason: And you were required to keep them a certain way. Roberts: Absolutely. Jonason: Regulation. Roberts: You had–you had, um, I can’t remember the exact term. Forgive me. Jonason: Junk on the bunk? Roberts: No, uh― Jonason: (laughs) That’s what I was told. Roberts: We―well, not then! We had to maintain and keep them clean, okay? And so, it was a–a group thing that was done once a week, no matter what your rank was. You were required, you know. Wash floors, windows, whatever. Jonason: Did you also do other things besides your job in maintaining the–the barracks? Did you― Roberts: Oh! Had a good time! (both she and Jonason chuckle) Jonason: Well, you did more than that, I know! (Roberts laughs) Did they have you do—picking up around the barracks, and― Roberts: Uh― Jonason: ―all that kind of stuff? Roberts: Yes. We had, um, um― Jonason: Field day? Roberts: Outside to maintain the—you know—the grass, and the bushes and whatever. Yes, that was also part of our requirement. We were to treat it like it was our home. And we would do those things if we were within our own home. So. Jonason: Had you ever gone to the Green Hat Club? Roberts: No. The Green Hat Club was after me. 7 �Jonason: Okay. Roberts: Okay? I’m not sure what year. Yes, there were a lot of, uh–uh, what do you call them, um― Cortellini: [inaudible] Roberts: —officers clubs. There were different clubs for different rank and of course I was a peon, so I―till I made sergeant, but yes. Jonason: How did ch–becoming sergeant change your life? Roberts: It gave―it made me more independent. I didn’t have to follow some of the rules and regulations. Jonason: So, did you live―you said you lived in the barracks about a year. So, you lived in the– in the Staff Sergeant’s house about two? Roberts: About two years. Yes. Jonason: Okay. And then what did― Roberts: Not legally, but I did. (both she and Jonason laugh.) Jonason: Well, nowadays, you’d get permissions or something. Yeah. Roberts: I’m not sure (smiles wide). Jonason: (laughs) Um, is there any other part of that work that you’d like to share with us? Roberts: As far as the military is concerned? Jonason: Mm-hmm. Roberts: In a way, um, it was―I think once I left the military, I was more conscious of my responsibility when I was in the Marine Corps. Jonason: Oh! Roberts: The motto of a W.M., which we were called—Women Marines—was to release a fighting man. And of course, it was during the Vietnam War, and it was a difficult time for the United States and for everyone. So, I didn’t think about it a lot but once I left the military, I realized what my job was or had been, to help win that war. Jonason: You–you appreciated it more? Roberts: Much more. Jonason: And so, then when you left you got married? Roberts: Yes, I did. Jonason: And where did you go? 8 �Roberts: In fact, I don’t know. I don’t remember all the times, but my husband who was stationed here at Camp Pendleton and his career was basically here, okay? He was a Gunnery Sergeant and he owned a home in Oceanside. And so, when we—naturally when we got married, I moved into his home in Oceanside. Jonason: And how long did you stay there? Roberts: (sighs) Uh, quite a few years. We didn’t move out—I guess I was there at least five years, at least five years, and then we bought a home elsewhere in San Diego. He retired. Jonason: Why did you like San Diego? Roberts: He liked San Diego. Jonason: Did you? Roberts: Yes, I guess so. My children were born here. It became my home. Uh, yes. Yes. I liked it. Jonason: Did you work outside the home once you were married? Roberts: I did, but not until my children got a little older. I actually went to work for the Marine Corps Exchange. (both she and Jonason laugh) Jonason: Okay. And how long did you do that? Roberts: Uh, now you’re asking a question you have to think about. It was a few years. Jonason: Yeah? Roberts: I would say five or six years. Yeah. Jonason: Okay. Well, that’s good. Cortellini: What was the Marine Corps reaction to your announcement that you wanted to get married? Roberts: I–I— Jonason: Oh, you said—Yeah!—How did you―when you decided to get married, there were regulations that you had to jump through before you could do that. Roberts: [chuckles] Yes. Jonason: Both you and your husband. Roberts: Being―being a–a low rank, number one, and being a woman Marine, I had to ask permission from my C.O., the sergeant in charge, and—which I had to do. Uh, between you and me, I did it because it was considered one of my responsibilities. Otherwise, I thought it was a silly rule. Jonason: [chuckles] And your husband had to do the same thing, right? 9 �Roberts: Well, he did. He did. And my―for me, he did it for me. Not so much for himself. He’d been married before. His first wife had passed. So, um, he was a–a bit youn–older than I am or was. And um, so no he didn’t. But, he did, for me. Yes. Jonason: He asked permission for you. Roberts: Right. We went together. Jonason: Oh! Very interesting. And were there any other situa―parts of that that were required? Roberts: No, because when we married, there–there was no problem. But because of our age, okay, we wanted a family. And the–the motto of the Marine Corps was if we wanted you to have a child, we’d issued you one. Jonason: I see. Roberts: So, as soon as I became pregnant, I was automatically dis–discharged. Jonason: (coughs) Excuse me. Roberts: I got an honorable discharge, but, yes. Jonason: Huh. Roberts: So, that’s how I left. Jonason: Interesting. And were you―after you were married, you moved into his house. Were you still a Marine at that poin–time? Roberts: Yes. Jonason: I’m trying to clarify that. Roberts: Uh, until I became― Jonason: Pregnant. Roberts: ―pregnant. Yes. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: Mm-hmm. Jonason: Okay. ( Roberts: We lived there for two children. Jonason: (chuckles) Roberts: He retired. He went to work for the Post Office and we moved into San Diego area. Terry Norwood: Where were your children—(barely audible) first and second—born? Roberts: Camp Pendleton, at the old hospital. 10 �Jonason: Because he was still in the military? Or― Roberts: No. We were―because he was what is considered a lifer, someone who put in twentytwo years of his life. He continued to have privileges— Jonason: Ah. Roberts: —military privileges. Jonason: So, he wasn’t in the Corps still, when they were born? Roberts: No. Jonason: And what did he do? Roberts: My husband went to work for the U.S. Post Office. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: Mm-hmm. He took the test and passed and–and continued to work there for thirty years. Jonason: Wonderful! Roberts: Mm-hmm. Jonason: And I understand that you’re still living in San Diego area. Roberts: Uh, actually I live in the same house. Jonason: (chuckles) Oh, my goodness! Roberts: Live in the same house. We bought a new home outside of Poway and I’ve lived there ever since. I think it was 1972, or something like that. Jonason: Wow! You must like it there. Roberts: It’s paid for! (she chuckles and Jonason laughs) For sure! Jonason: Are there parts of the community that you enjoy more than others? Roberts: In–in San Diego? San Diego?— Jonason: In Poway, San Diego County. Roberts: Uh, you know, I had two other children born there, and, um, it—number one, it was very new. We were one of the first housing developments in the area. So, basically, I watched it grow (raises her hands to indicate something growing) into this huge community. And, um, I felt like it was home. And yes, I do. I like it there. I can’t think of any place else. Jonason: Yes. Norwood: (unintelligible, but sounds like “Chopped Liver”) 11 �Roberts: Uh, I’m not sure. A pool, oh (shrugs)—as far as activities—(looking at Cortellini) is that–is that what we’re talking about? Okay— Norwood: What do you like about the community? Roberts: Oh! I did—yes, I’m talking about the beginning of living in the community and why I stayed there. Uh, I’m very active. Well, I won’t say active but I have a lot of activities within the community since I’ve lived there. So— I like to swim and do water aerobics, and— Jonason: This is a community pool, I take it? Or— Roberts: Yes, it is. Number one, I–I got to watch the community grow. Like I said, we were one of the first developments in the area, housing developments, and so I got to watch it grow. Jonason: There must be a story about being one of the first of the development. Was there— Roberts: No— Jonason: —an event or something? Roberts: —number one, now you want me to be silly? It was a ch— Jonason: No. (laughs) Roberts: Oh, okay. (laughs also) No, it was just a very new community and it was fun greeting all the new people and watching different developments grow, watching schools being built and my children being able to go to those schools. I know— Jonason: Did you get to pick specific flooring and that type of thing in your house wh—at that time? Was that something that— Roberts: Pretty much. Jonason: —Yeah? Roberts: Pretty much so. Yes. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: I mean, the house was built and then I did what I wanted to the inside of it (smiles wide) and outside, of course. Jonason: But that wasn’t with the builder, though. That was on your own, right? Roberts: That was on my own. Jonason: Interesting. Okay. Roberts: Yes. Jonason: (apparently she turns to Cortellini) Are there other questions that you would like to see asked? 12 �Cortellini: Um, it would be nice if she (rest of question is inaudible, but seems to be talking about entering something into a document) Jonason: Well, we’ll have that in the–in the file. Um— Cortellini: Just the fact that she [Cortellini clarification: left her close-knit family and friends, and her small town of Eastlake, Ohio to travel all the way to South Carolina to enlist in Marine Corps bootcamp. How brave and courageous as a young woman to make that monumental decision.] Roberts: (turning her head from Cortellini back to Jonason, smiling) She does— Jonason: Well, I think she–she went in from the frying pan into the fire— Roberts: The fire. Jonason: —didn’t you! (laughs) Roberts: Amen! (laughs also) Norwood: But she’s a cast iron skillet. Roberts: (turning to Norwood): Pardon me? Norwood: But you’re a cast iron skillet. Roberts: Oh, is that—Oh, I–I’ve never quite thought of myself that way, but— Jonason: (continuing to laugh) Yeah, but hey— Roberts: —I will take the compliment. (turns back to Jonason) Norwood: And the other thing I think you could give perspective on is how the military has grown since you’ve been here. Roberts: Oh, absolutely. Uh, as–for women? Yes, absolutely. Uh, it was—we were considered second class citizens back in 1966. Like I think I said previously, we were given the title of releasing a fighter–a fighting man, okay? And we were supposed to, uh—our jobs basically were to fill in where the men would have to leave and we would fill in and take their jobs. So, it was— it’s different today. Women join the military exactly the reason that men do. They want the— They want to do something for their country, number one. I can’t speak for all of them, but yes. I think they— Jonason: Okay. Roberts: —they have the same honor and privileges that they–you–this country offers their military. So, yes. Jonason: If you had a message for a young Marine today, what would it be? Roberts: Whoa! (Jonason laughs) Um, I really wouldn’t have a message for them. It—Number one, I believe it’s something that they—nowadays—let me put it this way. Nowadays, I think 13 �both men and women join the military because they want t–to, because it offers them something that they desire. Back in the day of, say, 1966, uh, men were drafted. Okay? And women were second class citizens. But they did it anyways, (shrugs) whatever their purpose—for their country; for themselves; for their family. So, times have changed. Jonason: Okay! Well, thank you very much. Roberts: You’re very welcome. [the video then stops and starts, and cuts off the beginning portion of what Leslee Roberts is saying, but she continues speaking, turning to Cortellini now:] Roberts: —[San Di]ego people. Or we could become Poway people living in San Diego. Norwood: Mm. Okay. And that, I can’t tell you how huge that is to the education—well, this is not necessar—this is going off on a tangent— Roberts: No, no. It had a–had a big—yes. Because— Norwood: It did! Roberts: just a community— Norwood: It did. Roberts: Mira Mesa, down the road is San Diego. Norwood: Yeah. Roberts: So, we were given a choice, and we made it. And we made the Poway U—part, we helped make Poway Unified School what they are. Norwood: That right there tells— Jonason: Is key. Cortellini: —what this woman is about. So, to–I–just—and— Roberts: I never thought about it, but— Cortellini: (inaudible due to Jonason asking a further question) Jonason: So, you’re saying that there was no Poway schools when you— Roberts: Poway, yes. Poway had their own little, uh— Cortellini: No, it wasn’t. Roberts: —They didn’t even have a high—They— Cortellini: They didn’t have a—They were not a unified school district until late— Roberts: No, they weren’t. Until much later. 14 �Jonason: But, did–did they have a school? Roberts: Oh yes. They had several, um, elementary schools. What was that? (turns from Jonason to Cortellini) They had Poway High— Cortellini: They had one— Roberts: — and one middle school. Cortellini: —Mm-hmm. Roberts: —one middle school. Cortellini: And they, and they were— Roberts: (turns to Jonason) Midland. Yeah, it was Midland. (holds up her left hand) Cortellini: They were part of Escondido. They weren’t really in their s–unified school district,— Roberts: No, they weren’t considered— Cortellini: but they were— Roberts: No. Cortellini: But they— Roberts: It was— Cortellini: And then we had [inaudible] Roberts: It was–Actually, it was–it was considered—it was kind of a country town. Cortellini: Yes. Roberts: It was just this country little, country city. They were themselves, okay? And, um, they did have schools for their kids and whatnot. But that was very small, very limited. I can’t even begin to tell you—Even now, there’s only one main— Cortellini: Okay. I’m st— Roberts: —road, going through Poway, and it’ll always be the main th–main road through Poway because everyone built to the sidewalks! There’s no way of widening it. (Jonason laughs) There’s no way of expanding it. (Jonason clears her throat) It’s all the way up to, uh, Ramona, bay–basically. Cortellini: So, now, I’m going to the Poway Museum and the R.B. Museum to see what historical data is there, because based on more— Roberts: Now— Cortellini: —info about the school district and how it came to be, because— Roberts: See, now Rancho Bernardo was— 15 �Cortellini: —that is really— Roberts: Rancho Bernardo was always there. It was considered more—back in (lowers voice) those (back to speaking voice) days, it was, uh, for seniors. Cortellini: Seniors. Roberts: It was more of a senior place. Cortellini: It was a community planned— Roberts: And um, yes. Cortellini: Yeah. Roberts: And, uh, they did attend, those that were–that lived in, say, Rancho Bernardo. They did attend the Poway school. Okay? Those were the—That was the only school district around. San Diego was a little far ou– far away for them. Cortellini: But–but it wasn’t even a formed Unified School District in the early 70s. Roberts: Till much later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So— Cortellini: Okay. And then, also, um, you’re–you’re being modest. You haven’t been asked to write your history, so I get it. Roberts: (turns to Jonason and shrugs) Cortellini: But just sitting here, I’m thinking of how you guys fought for the community center,— Roberts: Oh, yeah. Cortellini: —the pool that you swim in. Roberts: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Cortellini: You know? All the things— Jonason: And what happened with the community center? Roberts: It was a—We wanted it. They made it. Um, (sighs) how do I say it? It–it wa–I guess—it wasn’t— Cortellini: The city— Roberts: —exactly a community—how–how–what would you call the pool, ‘cuz I’ve been going there for twenty years. Cortellini: Yeah. It was a community center. Roberts: It was. Cortellini: Um, and the city decided to change—all that nastiness out of my mouth real quick— 16 �Roberts: You can say it. I–my ears are used to it. (Jonason chuckles) Cortellini: Then, um, this—When the city decided that to change their Charter and a lot of their zoning and who they were going to support or–or–in–like–They were no longer going to have a senior center. Okay? And they were— Jonason: Oh. Cortellini: —no longer going to have a community pool. But the community rallied— Roberts: But it was considered growing, and they wanted to grow into something besides Poway which we kind of fought for. Cortellini: And, yet, they didn’t want to bring in a Y.M.C.A. They wanted to be— Roberts: No. Cortellini: —their own thing and have it be bigger. But it’s just not what the people wanted at the time. So, these ladies were part of the movement. Roberts: Well, back then, yeah, we kind of steadfast and we voted. Jonason: How were you—How old were your kids at that time? Roberts: Oh they were— Cortellini: Oh, this was only like ten years ago. Roberts: Yeah. Well— Cortellini: But–but I—but I’ve only known you for maybe ten— Roberts: Sss—Yeah. Bu–bu–well, when they started building schools—This was the thing that– that we fought for. Number one was technically, technically I live in San Diego. Okay? But Poway is our school district. Poway is our hospitals. Poway is, you know, all the stuff that makes a city a city. We were able to stay in that group, and—well, Rancho Bernardo, too. But we— whereas just down the road about three or four miles, we have San Diego, Mira Mesa, some of the other ones. Cortellini: It’s very— Roberts: They’re all San Diego, so they have to follow the San Diego taxes, the San Diego whatever, whatever. Cortellini: Well, we do too. Roberts: No, no, I know. But I’m trying to think of things. Cortellini: It’s very convoluted up where we are. It took me a while to wrap my head around— Roberts: Everything. 17 �Cortellini: —how in the world could we be part of Poway Unified when we’re a San Di—city of San Diego address. It was really complex. Roberts: We—But we kind of fought for that. In fact, I can remember Mount Carmel— Cortellini: Well, I’m grateful (chuckles) Roberts: —Mount Carmel wa—uh, all the kids in my–in our area went to Poway High, went to Midland Junior High, okay? S–and–and the elementary school. And my kids started off at Me– Meadowbrook. Meadowbrook? (looks toward Jonason) Cortellini: Yeah. Roberts: Whatever, for kindergarten through ninth, (Jonason coughs) or whatever it was, until we fought for our own schools (Jonason coughs) and our own area. Cortellini: Hhm, that’s interesting. Roberts: So, I mean, yeah. I can remember when they built the high school. Cortellini: Do you? Roberts: Carmel Mountain. Cortellini: You’re a legend in my community, girl. Roberts: (laughs) I don’t know about that, but— (Jonason laughs) we didn’t—Poway, um, was recognized as having a very good school system, okay? Or, whatever. And we wanted to continue with what Poway was giving to our students. Where San Diego was—I mean, look at San Diego. San Diego is a huge place, and it’s gotten huger, so— Jonason: Is Poway considered part of North County? Roberts: Yes. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: Yes. So— Norwood: And, for many, many, many, many, many years, Rancho Bernardo, where I live—She lives in Poway, but sh–very close to R.B., um, but she’s not affected like we are because she’s in Poway. So, R.B. is the farthest north of San Diego. Roberts: San Diego, yep (nodding). Norwood: She is right beneath us. Roberts: On the edge, Mm-hmm. Norwood: We are North County and we are–don’t—We have to fight for the city of San Diego to fix our streets, to— Roberts: To do whatever. 18 �Norwood: To–to do whatever we need— Roberts: Right. Norwood: —because we’re so far north. They forget about us. They’ll take our tax revenue— Roberts: Oh, they do take that! Norwood: —but they’ll forget about us, which is one of–just one of many reasons why we wanted to integrate into our own sch–school system up there. Roberts: Oh, no. I— Norwood: Because it was so small, we could be more vocal. We could give more input into a smaller school district versus being a part of San Diego. Roberts: Well, parents were included. You were invited to come to the–to the school board meetings. You were, you know what I mean? You were invited to participate in becoming a school board member—I mean—so, you were part of it. Where as far as San Diego is concerned, which is—like I said—just five miles down the road, um, they were totally into, uh, San Diego, (shrugs) Mira Mesa and all the ones around there now. So— (shrugs) Jonason: Yeah. Roberts: Aah, we did that a bit, I guess. I don’t— (laughs) We fought for it. Jonason: Well, it sounds like you’re a very active person in your community. Cortellini: Yes. Roberts: Uh, (sighs, shaking her head), that was a long time ago. This old lady has settled in. (she and Jonason laugh) I’m not as active as I used to be. Cortellini: I just wanted to say. You know, when I first met Leslee, before I knew she was a Marine, over time, I started calling her “our fearless leader” (Roberts and Jonason laugh) at the pool, because she had this wonderful way of recruiting more people and she— Roberts: I had a mouth! Cortellini: She singlehandedly— Jonason: It’s a good thing! Roberts: I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. Cortellini: She–but she s— Roberts: When I don’t agree with you, you’re gonna hear about it. (all laugh) Cortellini: She’s still [Cortellini clarification: humble] about it. But, she singlehandedly turned a water aerobics, or water exercise class into a family. That’s how we became friends. Roberts: Yes. 19 �Jonason: Oh. Cortellini: She roped me in, and she writes–ropes in everybody! (laughs) Norwood: Yes. She makes you feel wanted. Cortellini: She makes you feel like a family, and then makes everyone feels welcome, and now, they—you wouldn’t believe the size of our water aerobics. We’re up to forty-plus people (somewhat unintelligible, faint voice, and there is background traffic noise) Roberts: I know. Cortellini: And that’s the summer. Roberts: Well, I think we have around, about thirty permanent, you know, oldies but goodies. Cortellini: That’s—but that’s also— Norwood: (can’t distinguish what she says, due to crosstalk) Roberts: In the summertime. Cortellini: Seriously. I give you credit for that, and you really— Roberts: Oh, not totally. There were— Cortellini: But, she’s— Roberts: Look at Doreen, Cortellini: And see, that’s where Norwood: (unintelligible, due to crosstalk) Roberts: Doreen. (Norwood and Cortellini crosstalk; unintelligible) Roberts: Yeah. It wasn’t just me. Cortellini: (first few words unintelligible) incorporated those values, a team and— Jonason: You feel that? Do you feel that the Marine Corps has helped you be organized and get people together? Roberts: I never thought about it, ‘cuz I was always a mouth. Jonason: Well, but— Roberts: Why do you think they kicked me out of the Sisterhood. Jonason: Because you needed to be a Marine. (laughs) Roberts: No. Because I didn’t fit in. (laughs) 20 �Cortellini: What did we go to the Mayor’s office for? Norwood: Oh, that was film week again. (next few words unintelligible) Cortellini: Okay. Roberts: (nodding) Yeah. Norwood: Still! Still! Cortellini: Leslee has—I know—Leslee has been an advocate for myself, my project, my books. She— Roberts: (to Jonason) Like I said, I’m a mouth. Cortellini: She has shared my books with everybody. Roberts: (to Jonason) And sometimes, if you’re loud enough, people just don’t say no to you. Norwood: I called her my agent there—she still is my agent (rest of sentence is unintelligible). 21 �GLOSSARY Carmel Mountain (pg.18) C.O. (pg.9) Doreen (pg.20) Green Hat Club (pg.7) Gunnery Sergeant (pg.9) Kingsley (pg.15) Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton (pg.1) Marine Corps Exchange (pg.9) Marine Corps Mechanized Museum (pg.1) Meadowbrook [CA] (pg.18) Midland Junior High (pg.18) M.O.S. (pg.3) Mount Carmel (pg.17) Parris Island (pg.2) Poway High (pg.14) Poway Museum (pg.15) Poway Unified School [District] (pg.14) Ramona [CA] (pg.15) Rancho Bernardo (pg.16-19) R.B. Museum (pg.15) Reveille (pg.2) Sisters of Charity (pg.1,2,20) Staff Sergeant (pg.8) W.M. (Women Marines [barracks]) (pg.5,6,8) 22 �23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Roberts, Leslee K. Interview transcript, November 11, 2022. Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leslee K. Roberts Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Faye A. Jonason Maryellen Cortellini Melissa Martin Terry Norwood Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-23 Subject The topic of the resource Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Korean War, 1950-1953 Switchboard operators United States. Marine Corps Veterans -- United States Women marines Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Poway (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en"></a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Leslee K. 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Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29_transcript Community history North County Oral History Initiative Veteran experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2eee91e0e2d04044ac88b9eed26e8b6e.pdf 16109e90e2d9db6e598a6fded4b5ae71 PDF Text Text LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Robert Sheehan: So today is April the sixth, 2022. It's a Wednesday at 1:03 PM. I am Robert Sheehan, a graduate student at California State University, San Marcos. And today I am interviewing Lilian Serrano for the university library, special collections, oral history project. Lilian, thank you for being here with me today. Lilian Serrano: Uh, yes. Thank you, Robert <laugh> Sheehan: I'd like to first start kind of by asking you about your childhood: when and where were you born? Serrano: I was actually born in Chula Vista here in San Diego County, very close to the border, but I was raised in Tijuana. So actually my parents didn't live in Chula Vista at the time when I was born. My parents, just like many other border residents, took advantage of the geographic location where they were living at, and seek the best healthcare they could afford. And for my parents who were Tijuana residents, that meant Chula Vista. So I was born in Chula Vista. Sheehan: Okay. So you were born as an American citizen? Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: And your parents were still in Mexico? Serrano: Yes. Like I said my family is a transnational family that has made Tijuana/San Diego our home for many generations now. So, my parents were residents of Tijuana. They're Mexican citizens. And there is actually, um, contrary to public belief, there's actually nothing illegal about folks coming in and -Robert, give me one second. Sheehan: Sure. [Interview interrupted] Sheehan: Hi, we are resuming the interview at 1:05. Lilian, you were talking about your parents in Tijuana and how they, uh, it was a common thing for people to move between the border. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 1 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Serrano: Yeah, it continues to be actually a common thing for residents of the border region. My family has been going back and forth from the border to the U.S. and Mexico side for at least five generations now. But my family, it is all originally from Mexico. So, my parents as Mexican citizens and as Tijuana residents -actually, both my parents were born and raised in Tijuana. Their whole lives, they cross back and forth between San Diego to Tijuana. They had at the time when I was born, they had their tourist visas. And like I was mentioning, contrary to popular belief, there's nothing illegal about folks being able, uh, receiving medical service in the U.S. as long as they're paying for them. And that's what my parents did at the time. They were able to, you know, afford to pay for every doctor visit, every medicine, everything that involves giving birth. So they did. And I was born in Chula Vista. And so did the rest of my sisters. So, there's three of us. All of us were born in Chula Vista and then actually a lot of my cousins and even just family friends that I grew up with. All of us, a lot of us, were born in, this U.S. side of the border, but we lived Tijuana to Mexican parents. Sheehan: That's very, very interesting. So do you still live on the American side of the border? Serrano: Yes, so actually it wasn't until I was probably about two weeks right before my 14th birthday that my family decided--and I mean they had been talking about it for a while--but they decided that it was time we made the hard decision of leaving, our hometown, my parent’s hometown, right, Tijuana, to the United States. And we moved to Oxnard, California in Ventura County. A small [unclear] cultural town where my great grandma had moved, like I said, many years before I was even born. And my grandparents were living there at the time. So my parents made the decision to move us to the United States. And I've been residing in the United States since I was two weeks before my 14th birthday until present. Sheehan: So do you still have family then south of the border in Tijuana? Serrano: Yeah, the house where I grew up, we still have it there. So I go visit. I still have a lot of family friends, family members, you know, aunts and uncles, cousins. Some of my cousins who are U.S. citizens that continue to live in Tijuana, I don't think really, they have ever in their entire lives, and they're like in their thirties now, ever lived actually live in the United States. They come visit, but they don't live here, their U.S. citizens that live in Tijuana. Sheehan: Wow. So what did your parents do for living, Serrano: When now, or <laugh>? Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 2 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Sheehan: Well, both when back then and now what do they do? Serrano: So, at the, uh, when, you know, back when I was born my parents had their own business. So, you know, that goes back to the ability to have a visa and actually be able to afford medical services. Also, I mean, giving birth back then, according to what my parents share with me, wasn't as expensive as it is now, right. Affording a medical services wasn't as expense. So my parents were definitely what some folks will consider maybe lower middle class, ‘cause they had their own small business. A family run business. And so that's what they did for a living. As things start getting more complicated and you know, big corporations start coming in and it was just harder for them to keep up with their small business. That is actually a big part. That and the reality that hit them, that they had three girls aging, almost approaching college time and looking at college tuitions, not being as affordable. That the reality of them having to move the family to the United States to seek better opportunities. That's when they made that tough decision. So, they shut down their business and they moved to, like I said, to Oxnard, California. And Oxnard is a primarily agricultural town. So when they first arrived, my parents went from being business owners to them being farm workers. So my dad actually worked out in the tomato fields. It wasn't for a long time, but he nonetheless, the continue of the years, he continued to do work that indirectly was related to the agricultural field. From packing plants to transportation centers, and warehouse and everything that is involved within the production of fresh produce. And so did my mom. Actually, my mom until not a long time ago worked at packing vegetables. Just different variety of vegetables--tomatoes, avocados, broccoli. I think the list goes on. But my parents were for all my high school and most of my college years, they were considered farm workers. Nowadays as they are a little older--and they just recently moved to San Diego County--my dad is not working right now because of his health condition. And my mom, is uh, she's working at a manufacturing job. Labor work. Sheehan: And what was their small business in Mexico? What did they do? Serrano: Yeah, they had a little store, a little market. It's called abarrotes in Mexico. So, they sell a little bit of everything. You know, fresh produce, meats. Just like any corner convenient little market store that you can think of. That that's what my parents did. That business was actually originally opened by my greatgrandparents when they first arrived to Tijuana and it was passed down generations until it was my parents who, once again, had to make the tough decision of shutting it down. Sheehan: So that really must have been a difficult decision to make, to leave all that behind. Serrano: It definitely was. I know that they invested many years of their lives. I mean, my mom grew up in that business. By the time my mom was born that my great grandparents already had the business. So, you know, my mom grew up there. I spent most the first, at least half of my life right there. Anything from having to help clean up the business to sometimes as I was getting older, having to take care of the Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 3 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 registry and, you know, like just handling cash, fixing, restocking, everything, right? Like we, we have that in common with my mom where we both, we all grew up in that store. But yeah, it was a tough decision, but I think, you know, like most parents, they did what they had to do. Sheehan: So growing up, you went to school all the way up until the beginning of high school in Mexico. Serrano: Yeah, actually, I did up to one year of middle school. And because of when like the U.S. and Mexico, we don't have a synched schedule when we cut the birthdays to like a new grade. I ended up following this like gap in between, so I skipped eighth grade. <laugh> I didn't have eighth grade either in Mexico or here. So I did everything from preschool to seventh grade in Mexico. And then I moved to Oxnard to start ninth grade, or high school. So that's where I started my high school. And I did all my high school in Oxnard. Graduated from Oxnard High School. Sheehan: And how was that transition from a Mexican middle school to an American high school? Serrano: It was interesting. <laugh> It was very, um, I mean, once again, I had the privilege I think that a lot of folks don't have of my parents were, um, used to be able to afford for me to go to private schools. Now they were not the biggest, most popular or, you know, expensive private schools, but nonetheless, they were private schools. So I was able to get some extra help in my classes. I was used to my class sizes being about 15 to 20 students and that 20 students was a big class for us. Most of, for the most part, I had small classes in size. And I used to, you know, have just your regular, I guess, subjects. Right. History, um, I didn't have English. I had Spanish. English was taught as the foreign language. So when I transitioned to the United States, I transitioned from small classroom size, um, class to now being put in a public school in a community that lacks a lot of resources. So I was thrown into high school with now being the culture clash of my class now double in size. I didn't have as much support from teachers plus the language. Right. Like I struggled with my English. I didn't really, I don't think I really spoke English before I started high school. So now I had to learn the language. So I was placed in ELD or ESL classes. I was placed also in what was offered at the time for bilingual classes, which was really lower like level math and the lowest level of science and basically all of the subjects. And even at the time, right. I remember very clearly having the conversation with my math teacher. They did an assessment; my math skills were actually really advanced for ninth graders. Because once again, I had had the support and I develop my math skills. But because of language, I was not able to be placed on the correct level of class because that level of class was not offered for ESL students. So I had to be placed in pre-algebra even though I had skills to be placed, I think in like geometry, which was at least one year, if not, two advanced. But I just didn't understand the language <laugh>. So that was a challenge for sure. I was also, once again, because I understood very clearly to me that the sacrifice my family was making was just to give me and my sisters opportunity to attend college. And me and my older sister had also that pressure, right. Now we have to make sure that our family sacrifice was worth it. So we had always, you know, since my first day of high school I had in mind that I was there to learn and to meet all the requirements to go to a four-year university. So as an ESL student that really meant having to reclassify, right? Like having to go through the whole process, finish and Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 4 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 learn and acquire enough English skills to be able to be placed in college prep classes to then be able to meet the A through G requirements. All of that in the lapse of four years. And actually, I was able to achieve that. I ended up, um, I always kind of joke, but not really with my friends that I had to do the A through G requirements, which is supposed to take you four years. I completed those in two years. ‘Cause I took the first two years of my high school to really just learn the language. And then, like I said, gain enough proficiency to be able to be placed in college prep classes. And then it took me two years, which meant took classes before school, after school, attended community college classes during the summer. And any opportunity that I could to, like, I took to be able to gain those, uh, or be able to meet the A through G requirements that allowed me then my senior year apply to a four-year university. And not just apply, but actually be accepted. So I gained acceptance to a few universities actually. I think, I don't remember receiving any letter denying my acceptance. Then it became a matter of where I was gonna go. And I chose Cal State San Marcos. Sheehan: So that was quite the journey then to come from Mexico and, like you said, to only have basically two years of that kind of more advanced high school because the school didn't have a bilingual program. So they placed you at a lower level. Do you think the-Serrano: I mean, we did have a bilingual program, but the bilingual program was, we didn't have all the levels of math, all the levels of science proficiency in bilingual, right. Like, they just had like the beginner. So for those of us who had had the opportunity to actually have, uh, acquire some, you know, skills in our home countries or the countries we were coming from, and we were placed in the beginner just because they, it was not that many of us for them to create a full class. Plus, I'm pretty sure the school didn't have the resources to do that. Sheehan: Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is, do you think that's endemic in American schools? They don't have the resources to teach children of immigrants. Serrano: Definitely. I mean, even though I'm not technically an immigrant, right. Because of my experience of coming from a different educational system and really living in, in outside of the United States and then coming in and learning the language, I did experience a little bit of what some folks experience when they transitioned into United States at a young age. So all of my classmates in high school and all my friends--really because our classmates become our friends at that age, especially as you're new in a new city--all of my classmates and friends for the most part were immigrants. Folks who were born outside of the United States. And we were all coming from very different backgrounds. Given the type of industry that prevails in Oxnard, a lot of them were coming from small village in Mexico and/or Central America in which their families were farmers. So when they came to United States, that's what they were gonna do. They were gonna be farm workers. So definitely, a lot of my classmates had never attended a formal school ever in their lives. Some of them were struggling to learn Spanish actually because their first language was an indigenous language. And some of them, you know, were still struggling with the education. So for them, definitely, they needed that kind of low math and low science classes because they didn't have the basic skills to be able to learn more advanced math. But for some of us--and it was, we were the minority, I guess, in that Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 5 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 group that had had those opportunities outside of the United States--we were still placed in the same level of math and science, just because our English was just not at the same level as a regular high school student. So there is a lot of diversity, I will say among immigrant youth. And a lot of times we don't get to see that because we are focused only on those who have the biggest needs, I guess. Sheehan: So in your opinion, what would be the way that schools could go about helping that education process? Is there a way that someone who has more advanced skills like yourself in math would be able to apply those skills successfully in a high school setting? Serrano: Well, I think for that, it would require for us to really invest in our English learner programs. We know that, unfortunately, our English learner programs tend to be underfunded. Right. They just don't have the resources to really address the need. The need is big. We still have a lot of kids who are U.S. citizens who were born and attend, you know, all the K through 12 in the United States, but that never really reclassify, never really gained that proficiency in English in part, because they don't, um, you know, when they get home, they primarily speak Spanish. And they attend schools who don't have the resources to provide that more one on one that like individual support that a lot of students require. So I really think to address that question, like really the problem is that our schools are underserved. We don't have enough resources. We don't have enough teachers. We don't pay our teachers enough. Like we don't have enough specialized teachers. I still remember, and that was not my experience. But in my last year of high school, the amount of ESL students that we had in my high school was so big that we didn't have enough ESL teachers. So we ended up opening one class with a teacher who had, I think studied two years of Spanish <laugh> or something like that. So this is somebody that is not proficient in Spanish but ended up having to take an ESL class just because we didn't have enough teachers. And I can imagine, right. That was probably also a tough call for our administrators. But unfortunately, when we don't have, we don't invest in bilingual teachers, when we don't invest in our bilingual programs, that is the result, right. We have students who are not being challenged in the classroom, like I felt I wasn't. But also, students who actually need a lot of support just to catch up with their classmates and are not receiving that, and therefore are staying behind. So we are really underserving our students by doing that, right. Our classroom should be an environment where you should be able to learn basic skills, but also to be pushed and challenged. And we are, at least in my experience in high school, at an ESL program, that was not the case. Sheehan: And do you remember the percentage of kids who graduated from your graduating class? Serrano: <laugh> No. I don't remember. That was a long time ago. Sheehan: Okay. Yeah. <laugh> So moving on then from high school going into college, you said you went to Cal State San Marcos, is that correct? Serrano: Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 6 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Yes. Yes, I decided that when I was looking at all the options, I guess I had, um, really, I didn't have that many options. I was happy and, you know, excited when I got all those accepting letters as a senior, especially, you know, I had you share, I had a tough journey. The reality was that my parents were still farm workers. The reality was my family was still struggling and I was going to get a lot of emotional support, but not financial support. So I was looking for a college that will help me financially. That will feel right for me. I was also looking for that, like home feel to it. And I also knew that I performed better in smaller classrooms. So for me, Cal State San Marcos definitely met all those things I was looking for. Also, I had, initially my sister originally, my older sister started at Cal State San Marcos. So when I chose that school, I also had the hope that we were both gonna be attending together. That ended up not happening. She ended up, unfortunately like many students, dropping out before I was able to join her. But the campus is still within the border region. It's still only a few minutes away from Tijuana and Chula Vista where I actually have a lot of family members. But at the same time, it was not close enough for me to feel like I was gonna go with my family. I still felt, you know, as a teenager, I was also looking to get away from family. So Cal State San Marcos provided that perfect in between. At least for me. And then also once again, being a smaller campus, a campus that had small class sizes. Also, we have a college assistant migrant program who once again, as a daughter of farm workers, provided a lot of support, especially my first year. So all of those were like incentives for me to pick Cal State San Marcos and decide to move back in 2008. Sheehan: Very interesting. So what did you do for financial support then? Was it just kind of grants and student loans and things like that? Serrano: Yep. <laugh> So it was grants. It was, um, like I mentioned through camp, I was able to access some scholarships. And then I was able to, or ended up having to, sign up for student loans. Yeah. Sheehan: Mm-hmm, <affirmative> very much the American experience right now. <laugh> So you’re one of three sisters. You had said your older sister had dropped out of college. Did your younger sister attend Cal State San Marcos or any other college? Serrano: So actually, yes, my older sister that dropping from Cal State San Marcos, just to later on, actually, she was part of the first class of Mira Costa students who graduated with a bachelor’s. She has a Bachelor’s of Science from Mira Costa College. And that was recent. And my younger sister, she is currently a student at UC Irvine. Sheehan: Wow. So you were the middle daughter and ended up with the first degree. Was that the first degree in your family? Serrano: Yes. Yes, that was the first degree in my family. And yes, I know. I ended up being the middle child as an example, I guess. <laugh>. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 7 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Sheehan: And what was your degree in? Serrano: Mine? Sheehan: Yes. Serrano: I ended up doing my bachelor's in human development with my emphasis in health services. Sheehan: And then that led into your current position, or how did you end up where you are now? Serrano: I ended up doing a double major, sorry. I should have--I did a double major in Human Development and Spanish. So I wanted to make sure that I didn't lose my proficiency in the language, but also, I had always really liked literature and, you know, Spanish is my first language, so I felt a lot more comfortable in that language. So I ended up studying both. When I first started at Cal State San Marcos, I knew I had to find my home. ’Cause my family was far, far away. Especially because when my parents decided to move the family and overstay their visas, they became undocumented. Right. So even though if they had, you know like their whole lives, they had been moving back and forward and, like I shared, my great grandparents, my grandparents, they were all now, actually at the time I think they were already U.S. citizens. By the time we moved. If not, they were very close to becoming U.S. citizens. My parents only had visas. So when they moved and overstayed, they became undocumented. So something that wasn't thinking of when I picked the college is that because we are in the border now, there was an imaginary line dividing me and my parents. The way that our immigration system defines the border is a hundred miles from the port of entry. So for those of us who live in San Diego County, especially those of us who live in North County, we're very familiar with the Border Patrol checkpoints set on the 15 freeway and on the 5, which, you know, are around the areas of Temecula and San Clemente. So my parents, when I first started college, my freshman year, they were still undocumented. So they couldn't risk, and I myself couldn't ask them to risk, their ability to be with my younger sister who at the time was I think, a first grader, by crossing that checkpoint. Because every time an undocumented immigrant drives through that checkpoint, there's a possibility of being arrested and deported. So I, I was not--I knew about the checkpoint, but I didn't understand all the complications that come with it until I had already submitted everything for Cal State San Marcos. I had my orientation day and then I had to have that tough conversation that my parents couldn't drop me off for orientation. They did end up dropping me off for my first day at the dorms. But after that, I was basically on my own. If I wanted to see my parents, I would have to either drive or take the train and me being me, the U.S. citizen crossing that checkpoint versus my parents who were undocumented. So, I forgot what I was saying. <laugh> Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 8 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Sheehan: <laugh> That's all right. Serrano: [unclear]. Sheehan: I have a, well, that leads me to my next question, actually. Coming from a multi-status family, did that impact your choice of career? Serrano: It did. It did. I think, indirectly, but it did. I went to high school once again, it kind of all goes back to high school years, right. ‘Cause for most of us, those are our formative years, right. The years where, even though we're making decisions unconsciously, that ends up impacting what we do. So when I was in high school, this was in 2006. I remember very vividly that Congress was having a conversation around undocumented immigrants and around, and how some politicians at the time were really pushing to criminalize undocumented immigrants. Currently being undocumented in the United States is a civil offense. It's not a criminal offense, but at the time there were a lot of pushing, a lot of conversations around criminalizing that, really making it a felony to be undocumented and or helping undocumented folks. So as a teenager that was literally struggling to learn English struggling, like kind of in a way I feel identified with the immigrant experience. I knew my parents were undocumented. Most of my friends were immigrants and a lot of them were undocumented. I felt these folks were speaking directly to my community, right. Directly to my family. Directly about my friends. And I knew that it wasn't true. Everything that they were saying was not true. That was not reflective of my experience and what I was seeing every day. So, 2006, there was a mass movement around immigrant rights. A push for an immigration reform and really to change that dialogue about how we were talking about undocumented immigrants. And as a high school student, I just jumped on board. I joined the protests. I ended up walking out of my high school. Like a lot of folks did back in 2006, we saw high school walkouts all throughout the state of California. I joined that movement, not knowing anything. I didn't know what the real implications of the conversations were. I didn't know how Congress works. I didn't know how we make laws. I just knew that what I was hearing and what I was watching on TV, like through the news was not right. So fast forward to when I started as a student at Cal State San Marcos. I had already had my first encounter with MEChA, which stands for Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan. And as a high school student, a lot of high schools do have MEChA. My high school didn’t. But when we started, you know, getting involved in organizing walkouts and protests, it was college students at the nearest community college who were involved with MEChA, who came out to make sure that police was not harassing us. To come out, to tell us like, Okay, this is what you do to stay safe during a protest. They were not instituting the protest ‘cause we were the ones really wanting to do everything, right. But they were there to make sure we were doing it in a safe way. So when I kind of started at Cal State San Marcos, find out we had a MEChA chapter, I knew since like orientation, I'm joining this organization ‘cause they're doing what I wanna be doing. So, it is actually through that, that I met one of my mentors, Arcela Nuñez[-Alvarez] who at the time was the director of the National Latino Research Center and the advisor for MEChA, um, that I actually started getting more involved here locally in North County. So a Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 9 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 lot my years as a student at Cal State San Marcos, I really spent getting to know North County and the local immigrant rights movement through MEChA. And also, you know, we also got into some trouble at Cal State San Marcos as we were the biggest organization, student organization that represent Latino and Latinx students. And you know, at the time we were look[ing at a] tuition increase. We still--and until this day--Cal State San Marcos still doesn't have a Chicano Studies department. But back then we had even less Chicano professors. So there was a lot of things that I was seeing in my daily life that it just didn't feel right. Didn't feel that that was something, or an environment in which folks like myself could thrive. And my goal was always to try to, you know, create a world where I wanna live in and create a world where I want other generations--future generations--to live in. So I got involved and I was, you know, I struggled a little bit because I was taking classes and then I was doing all this community work and I never saw the bridge. Right. I never saw like the connection for me. So like, no, this is what I do because that's just what feels right to me. And I'm going to class because one day I'm gonna have a career, but I still didn't know what, <laugh> like most college students. So as my college year start--you know, I started approaching the end of my college career, I started seeing that overlap. Right. And I found that overlap initially, actually ended up getting hired as a student assistant. And then later on, I came right after graduation, came in as staff at the National Latino Research Center and in there--which is a department at Cal State San Marcos--I learned a lot about research. But also, I learned how research can be used to really bring attention to issues like that I was seeing. So that's kind of where I started seeing like, Okay, there's an overlap. I can actually do something with this education that I'm getting to improve and continue to also use the skills that I learned as an organizer versus an activist. As an organizer in the community. And I can merge both. And I can merge them in a way in which I create the opportunities that I wanna see. Right. And I kind of was able to after graduation and after like a few years of experience working at the NLRC and now, you know, as Universidad Popular, that's what I'm doing. I'm still continuing to create the spaces and the opportunities that I really wish I had when I was in that position in my life. Right. So for young folks, but also for like our, um, just our immigrant communities in general. Especially in North County, which, once I moved here, I fell in love with this region and also came to find out that this region is severely underserved. If I struggled in Oxnard--like this community is severely underserved. So, I decided that [I’d] dedicate my professional career to build resources here in North County. And it was all, you know, it was all as I was trying to merge my worlds into one. <laugh> Sheehan: <laugh>. And so what resources can people use in North County that you've helped develop? Serrano: Yeah. So, through Universidad Popular we have developed classes, community classes where folks can actually start learning about the history of Latinos in the United States. It's all coming from a Chicano Studies lens. And for me like that, I also, it was in a Chicano Studies classes where I felt like empowered and I was able to feel that I could merge, right, like my knowledge and my experience with my education. So we definitely find that that's the perfect platform for, uh, to start that. So, we also have classes that help folks learn the history and civics of the United States to then be able to become citizens. So a lot of folks don't know, but undocumented folks, sorry, immigrants. Immigrants who are applying to become U.S. citizens have to pass a history and civics test before they're able to do that. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 10 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 So we help them study. We help them connect with attorneys or immigration attorneys that are able to, you know, assist them in the process of filling out their application. I myself sometimes serve as the interpreter. So I actually go with folks who are eligible to take their interviews in Spanish. I sit through there and I help them translate. And then, you know, we help them get through the finish line of becoming U.S. citizens. And after that, I help them register to vote. And then we also have some voter education classes and just activities in general, every time there's an election, in which we help first, new citizens register to vote, learning how to vote. Because voting is not as easy as it seems for those of us who are fluent in English and who are, um, grew up around our electoral system. And also, just learning about the candidates and, you know, the information or where to find information about the candidates. So you can make the right decisions for yourself and for your families. I also have helped develop an alert system specifically here in North County and that is part of what I've been doing now for many, many years on a volunteer basis. We developed an alert system that lets folks know when there is the presence of a checkpoint, a police--usually they're called DUI checkpoints--but the reality, we know that in the immigrant community, the perception is definitely that they are not there to catch folks who are driving under the influence, but really to catch folks who are driving without a license. Which is a lot of undocumented folks. And we haven't seen this in the last few years. But over 10 years ago, when this system started, we used to see a lot of collaboration with Border Patrol. So, I personally witnessed DUI checkpoints in which Border Patrol was standing right next to the officer or a block away. Right. So if you were somebody that was driving without a license and you look a certain way, you were Spanish speaker, you were for the most part presumed to be undocumented, and Border Patrol will be there to ask for your immigration status. And we also, unfortunately, documented some stories of folks that ended up being put in deportation procedures through this process. So we helped create an alert system in which when there's a DUI checkpoint in our community, when there's a Border Patrol checkpoint and, or an immigration raid, you know, in North County. And by North County, we really mean all the communities that touch the 78 and 76 corridors. So the cities of Oceanside and Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, and all of the unincorporated areas of Valley Center, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Pala, Fallbrook. Whenever there is one of those instances, we're able to send out a text message alert that goes to over 8,000 unique contacts. Plus, we're able to also to post information on our social media. All combined, we are able to reach anything between 50,000 to 100,000 community members, primarily Spanish speakers who live in North County. And a lot of them we know are immigrants. Sheehan: That's incredible. So there's this whole support system for immigrants in North County that you've created. Is that something that you've done in, what was the timeframe on that? Serrano: So when I first kind of joined a group, it was kind of baby. It was barely community members. A lot of them college students, a lot of them Cal State San Marcos students who were going to these checkpoints to start documenting what was happening. Right. And they will just, because they were already there, they will just start texting their family and friends who will then forward that text message to their families and friends. So it was like a tree. And this started back in 2009. I joined the group in 2010, so months after it was first created. And we knew that we needed to reach people faster and also in a more effective way. So, I was able to, as a student, just volunteer my time. And, you know, also as a young person that grew up with technology, trying to figure out how do we use technology to do that, to do exactly that. So at the time--and this is 2009--Facebook had only been Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 11 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 around for a few years, and it was barely kind of getting momentum. So we started using Facebook as an organizing tool. We were probably one of the first groups that started using Facebook. You know, later we also used Instagram as an organizing platform to do that. And then also we knew that a lot of community members that we were targeting, like the folks that needed to get this information, were not gonna be able to jump on a Facebook page because at the time they probably didn't have the technology or didn't know how to use it. So we knew that we needed to do something with direct text message. We didn't have resources. This is all volunteer work. We didn't have grants. We didn't have the ability to get donations really. Like, I mean, we were getting donations, but we're not a 501c3, right. There's no real exchange that could happen. So somebody literally just said, “I have an old Blackberry that you can have if you want it”. And then somebody was kind enough to say, “And I can add a new line to my family plan”. And then the rest of us just had to say, well, we will pitch in to pay the monthly payment. So we all started literally with an really old Blackberry, um, <laugh> that we will type the text message and send out and start kind of creating a list. Once we hit the 500 numbers, like, you know, 500 unique phone numbers that we were now texting every weekend, sometimes multiple times in the weekend, it became really hard because a Blackberry is not designed <laugh> to send more than 500 text message at the same time. It will take us three hours. Literally, one of us will be in the phone for three hours sending text message. And then we decided, okay, that's three hours is ridiculous. We can't be volunteering more than that. So we kind of stop adding new numbers, but the demand, right. Amount of people that every time we send a text message, they will text back, “Hey, can you add my cousin? Hey, can you add my neighbor?” Or we will be out -because we were putting this out of pocket and I was a student, a first-generation college student that was signing up for, or getting student loans just to pay rent. I couldn't afford really an extra bill. And, you know, that was a reality for most of the folks that were doing this. Not all of us were college students, but, you know, we're all struggling. We started asking our Facebook friends on our page, “Hey, would you all be willing to pitch in to pay the bill?” Right. And yes, that response from the community immediately was yes. “Where can I meet you to get you five bucks, ten bucks, twenty?” So then we started attending community events to collect a donation, but of course, as we are at the community events, people are like, “Oh, you're with Alianza Comunitaria. Can I be added to your list?” And we had to say, no, we couldn't. So we figured out that we needed an online system, and we did everything car washes, literally hanging out at the swap meet, just collecting donations, asking folks who were receiving our text message, who will send them a text, right. Like, “Hey, can you help us? Anything will help.” And we were able to in 2013 transition to an online system that we have continued to have now for a few years. It continued to be all community funded. Now, as you know, some of us found more stability. We were paid out of pocket to continue this system. And we were able to bring in more and more numbers. So our numbers continue to grow. Every time I look at our list, it's bigger. The last time I looked, it was a little over 8,000, but I don't really know our exact number because people just sign up automatically on it. And our Facebook and Instagram, like I said, we get followers every weekend. Every time there is an alert that needs to go out, we get them and here and there, we will hear from community members who tell us, “I've been following for 10 years”. And the amount of trust they have on this network is to the point where we still, we get a lot of messages primarily through our social media, where folks now are sharing with us a lot of very personal information with the hope that we are gonna be able to connect them with resources. Right. So many times, I am the one connecting folks with organizations who are able to provide legal services and/or directing them in the right way to where they can find information about medical or health services. There's a lot of questions around schools for their kids. So it becomes--even though we try not to Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 12 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 promote it, ‘cause it's still volunteer run, so it's capacity. It's an issue. We are part of the North County community, specifically the immigrant community. So they look at us for all sorts of information. So right now, during COVID we had folks who were looking at us for resources. What can we do to help feed our families or to access the vaccine? Like a lot of folks are, um, we had questions around, Will this affect my immigration status? Or I’m undocumented. Can I access these resources? So we continue to do that work. And of course, our notification system continues to be up and running and just growing, even though we are trying not to grow it as much. Sheehan: That's really, really incredible. You said you've seen these DUI checkpoints where really Border Patrol is kind of hanging out there trying to catch undocumented persons. Have you experienced any other issues that immigrants face in, you know, the border region? Serrano: Yeah. I mean and, you know, just to clarify, that was many years back. Like close to 10 years back. And the reason I make that clarification is because things have changed. Policies and laws really for the state of California has changed that make that illegal to an extent <laugh>. So, I just wanna clarify that because I don't want the departments coming after me, like, you're saying we're violating the law. That's not true. Yes. But you did at one point. <laugh> Yes. I mean, there is a lot of challenges. Like I said, at this point I've been working with the immigrant community in North County for over 10 years. And there are challenges at all levels, from parents trying to navigate the schools. To folks not being able to access healthcare. We know that, unfortunately, undocumented folks, even if they qualify because of income and you know, the other requirements for medical, they're not able to access it just because of their immigration status. So I had to, even with my own family, have to navigate the system, or try to navigate the system because there's really no navigation when you're being denied services, because you don't have health insurance. And you're not able to access health insurance because you cannot afford private. And the ones that are subsidized by the government, you don't qualify because of your immigration status. So for me personally, that has been an important fight to ensure that our safety net is open, right. For the state of California our safety net is open for all of us, regardless of immigration status. We have been able to have some win. So as my work out in the community through Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular, I became an advocate for immigrant rights. So right now, we are in April 6th, 2022. And we're very excited because starting May 1st, so in a few couple of weeks, undocumented immigrants 50 years and older will be able to access full scope Medi-Cal if they qualify based on income regardless of their immigration status. So that is a huge win that took us many years. Literally, I had trips to these, sorry, to Sacramento. I have taken the 12-hour bus--and I know how long it takes--12-hour bus to Sacramento with undocumented folks. With folks who are cancer survivors. With folks who are dealing with diabetes and all kinds of chronic disease from North County. Here from our local community who have been living here 20, 30 years. Who have U.S. citizen kids, right. Who are doing everything on their end to be good members of our community. Who are blocked from receiving health services because of their immigration status. So I had the privilege of getting to know them, learning their story, helping them prepare and really become advocates for their own, uh, for themselves and their families. And now, you know, a few years later we are seeing some results from that advocacy. As we are changing the laws and really changing the way undocumented immigrants are perceived in our community. Of course, that has been statewide efforts, right. Like we are part of some statewide coalitions that have been able to bring us those results. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 13 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 But I can tell you that North County, San Diego has been part of all those conversations throughout the years in part, because of the work that me and other folks have been doing. Sheehan: And so what are some of the methods that you use to advocate? I know you, before you had mentioned when you were in high school and college, you had organized and been a part of protests. Is that the major way that you help advocate or -Serrano: No, that's probably the most visible one for the outside world. And definitely we continue to use public protests as a way of getting attention to the issues. But there's many other ways. We ensure that my role has become being the teacher, right. Like the person that is helping community members learn how to tell their stories, because even though we know the experiences exist in the community, right. Like, I witness them sometimes, you know, like folks call me, like, I can't, I need a test or even in my own family, right. My mother-in-law was in a situation a long time ago where she wasn't feeling right, and she needed to get tested. And we couldn't get an appointment. I, myself, I couldn't sign her up anywhere because she didn't have health insurance because she was undocumented. So I'm seeing this, I'm living through it, but I know that it's hard for our community members to tell that story in a way that other folks are able to understand it and follow along. So I literally had taken the time to first teach folks how the laws are changed, right. Then we also take the time to see which laws need to be changed. Partner with those who have a lot more experience than myself in policy making and, you know, try to come together to create bills that we think might be able to solve the problem. And then have community members learn how to do the advocacy in the legislative process. Which means teaching them how to tell their own personal stories, accompany them to provide that testimony. What there is in a private meeting with legislators at their offices or public hearings. Like anything from public meetings, sorry, public hearings in Sacramento with our state legislators to city councils, right. A lot of times there is things city councils can be doing to improve the lives of folks, but most of us don't know about it or don't know how to communicate with them. I also have helped folks set up meetings or help folks set up meetings. And, at times, especially when some of these meetings are public, media has an interest. So lately that has been one of the skills I've been developing on how do we better work with media to ensure that the stories of our community members are out there and folks who might not be in our communities are aware of. Because deep in my heart, I know that people, there's a lot of people that cares who just don't know, they just don't know what's happening. So part of the advocacy is really to ensure that everybody knows what's happening and how things can be fixed in a way that it will not take away from U.S. citizens. Because that's not the point. The point is not to take anything away from a U.S. citizen. The point is to ensure that all of us who contribute to our community get access to the same resources. And that is the part of the work that I have been doing in terms of advocacy. And sometimes we don't achieve that in a public protest, but sometimes you do, <laugh> right. So use the different tools in our toolkit for advocates. Sheehan: And so that, is it a bill or a law that's going into effect in May? That's a big win for the immigrant rights group. Is there any other progress that kind of stands out to you in the past 20 years? Serrano: Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 14 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Definitely. For me, the one that I was also very passionate and really sparked my interest in learning how advocacy works at the state level is the passage of SB 54 or the California Values Act back in 2000 and 2017. <laugh> Yes, it went into effect in January of 2018. So the SB 54, the California Values Act is also known at the national level as the California Sanctuary Law, which really prohibits law enforcement from collaborating with immigration enforcement. That's the law that I was hinting earlier <laugh> about me making sure that I clarify that those incidents happened before 2018. Because in the state of California-and we were the first state in the nation--and actually now a few years later, some states have been following our lead in ensuring that law enforcement, your local police department are not in the business of deporting community members. When we first started talking about--going back to my experience here in North County, right. I was involved in the community. I knew about this DUI checkpoints. They were becoming a ridiculous thing where we documented checkpoints on a Tuesday at 10:00 AM in front of a high school in Escondido. What drunk driver is driving at 10:00 AM in front of a high school on a Tuesday? And I mean, I know there might be folks driving under the influence at the time, but they’re definitely folks who need help. Because we were seeing the DUI checkpoints and not outside of bars, right. They're not there--once again, it was obvious to us that they were not targeting drunk drivers. They were targeting undocumented immigrants. And they were targeting because they were able to impound the car because at the time undocumented immigrants couldn't get a license. And once again, we were seeing immigration enforcement presence. So we were able to first tackle the license. So the state of California became the first, uh, one of the first states to give undocumented driver's licenses. But for us here in North County, we knew that the problem was really the collaboration, the close collaboration between immigration enforcement and law enforcement. A lot of folks don't know this, but the Escondido Police Department was one of the first ones to launch a pilot where ICE agents, or immigration enforcement agents, were literally riding along with the police department. They had an office within our department headquarters. They were one in the same, basically. That later translated in laws in the states of Arizona and other places. So we knew that North County had something to do with the birth of that collaboration. So we needed to be part of the disentanglement of that collaboration. We worked with legislators for many years, and finally in 2018 in the state of California, now it's illegal for police departments to fully collaborate with immigration enforcement. Unfortunately, there's still some exceptions to the law, so there continues to be collaboration. We continue to fight every single one of the forms of collaboration. But for the most part, the state of California is able to say that our law enforcement doesn't collaborate with immigration enforcement. And that has been part of the result of the advocacy that happened statewide. But I can say that Escondido specifically was constantly brought up in those conversations because we were one of the first departments to start that collaboration. So then we were definitely one of the first to stop after the state law was passed. Sheehan: And so do other border states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, do they have similar laws to what California is or do they even consider having those laws? Serrano: I think in the state of Arizona and Texas actually had been having the opposite fight. The state of Arizona was one of the first, I think it was the first to launch it statewide, to not just allow the collaboration, but it was almost like demand law enforcement to collaborate with immigration enforcement and demand law enforcement to become one in the same with immigration. So, yes, Arizona, sorry, California is right Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 15 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 now the only one that has that state law, at least for the bordering states. I think the other one that will be kind of like a good example of the work on the opposite will be New York. And definitely some of the smaller states are. Their laws are not as strong as ours, but they are definitely on the way there to hopefully disentangle that. Sheehan: So that kind of brings me to the end of my questions here. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything you'd like to share? Serrano: Um, let me think. <laugh> I know I talked to you about many, many different things, but I think for me, something that resonates a lot the work that we've been doing is recently the whole San Diego County went through the redistricting process. For those who don't know, redistricting happens every 10 years after a census count. Now, when I arrived to this region, it was right before the last census in 2010. I arrived to North County in 2008. And I knew that there was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Spanish speakers, right. I felt right at home. But the 2010 census was severely undercounted Latinos. Now in 2020 census, I was able join the efforts to ensure that folks were counted. And even though we continue to see a severe undercount for our communities, now as we have the count and we get to redistrict our community, we get to say that the North County district, which right now will be District 5 for the County Board of Supervisors, is at least 45% Latino. So that to me just goes to show the amount of growth that our Latino community, immigrant communities, have had in North County. And, it was recent, but we are starting to see a trend on the change of policy makers. So we are seeing a lot of Latinos, a lot of immigrants and/or the children of immigrants being elected to school boards, being elected to city councils. You know, crossing fingers. So we will see them at the Board of Supervisors, and we will see them at the state and federal level representing North County. And I think for me, as somebody that has done a lot of work in this region in the last 10 years, it just goes to show the power our community has when we organize ourselves and we imagine what can be done. It wasn't there before. Because I remember 2008 when I arrived, this was a very conservative community, and it continues to be conservative, but it was, uh, I remember it was at Cal State San Marcos, the first time a peer, somebody my age called me beaner and told me to go back to Mexico. So that is the reality for a lot of families in North County. The racism that was just open and accepted, right. The practice by our policy makers and even by our neighbors of denigrating you because you're Mexican. Telling you to speak English because this is the United States or telling us to go back to Mexico. Even for folks who are not even originally from Mexico, right. Our Central American community members were being told to go back to Mexico. Fast forward to 10 years now, even though I recognize that we continue to be a very conservative community, North County is changing. And it's changing because the number of Latinos is increasing, and we are now creating a Latino leadership in a region. And I don't know if our administrators at Cal State San Marcos know, but in part is because of the presence of Cal State San Marcos. Because nowadays as an alum, as a Latina, as a Spanish speaker, I run into so many folks who have attended San Marcos, who are from this community and who are creating change. And we expect that that will continue to create an impact in our region. Sheehan: Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 16 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 And so in the 2010 census, there were more immigrants here than the census showed. And then in 2020, that number had grown. What do you think keeps people from wanting to participate in that census? Is it a fear of deportation? Serrano: Yeah, definitely. When you're undocumented you want nothing to do with the government. Government is your enemy. And in part that has been because of our doing, as the United States. We have used every-- you know, it's almost like when we talk about immigration, it comes in waves, right. And every time that there is this like conservative tough on immigrant approach, we create fear, and we create cases in which folks get deported from our communities. Obama, the Obama administration has the record on deportations in all of the country. So when a Democrat president is deporting your family, and now you have another new administration, even if it's Democrat, Republican. As an immigrant, you fear them. They're your enemy. Regardless of who they are like, they're your enemy because they are the ones responsible for separating your family and/or separating a family that you know. So when you are undocumented, the government is your enemy and any interaction you avoid. And that's what we saw with the census, right. Even though the census should have absolutely nothing to do with immigration enforcement, folks are afraid of it because they don't know how it could be used against them. Also, unfortunately in 2020, the president that we had at the time, President Trump decided to make it a political move and decided and pushed really hard to include immigration questions on the census, which include a citizenship question. He really fought really hard to include those questions. Even though a court decided not to side with him, and they ended up siding with creating a census that will be more inviting for folks to participate versus creating questions that will prevent folks from feeling as safe participating. And those questions didn't make it to the questionnaire. The president coming on TV already saying that he wanted to use that as part of his immigration enforcement, nobody could take that away from us. So it was fresh on people's memories and I myself, right. Like me and my team, we were out there doing outreach for the census, and we will always get questions. “And how is Trump gonna use this against me?”, right. “How is this gonna be part of the deportation process?” And I can tell them a hundred times that that was not the case, but once again, they had already seen the president be on TV saying that it would be used against them. So those were some of the challenges that we saw with the census. Sheehan: And so that 45% Latino/Latina is probably on the very low side. Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: So that's an incredible growth in North County. Serrano: Yes. Yes, cities like Escondido are now majority Latino with 52%. Cities like Vista and San Marcos are also very close to the 50% mark. Once again, if we were to account for the under count, it's probably safe to say that they're about half Latino population cities. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 17 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Sheehan: <laugh>. That is an incredible rate. Serrano: Yeah, it is. Sheehan: All right. And did you have anything else that you would like to share? Serrano: No, I think that's all for me. Sheehan: All right. Well, thank you very much for your time today. Serrano: Yeah, no. Thank you for having me. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 18 2022-11-12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Serrano, Lilian. Interview transcript. April 6, 2022. Description An account of the resource Lilian Serrano is a California State San Marcos alum. She graduated with a degree in Human Development. Lilian worked with the National Latino Research Center (NLRC) at Cal State San Marcos before moving on to work with Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular. In this interview, Lilian discusses family life and growing up in Tijuana and Oxnard, her experiences as a student activist at CSUSM, and her work as an advocate for immigrant rights in North County. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lilian Serrano Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Kevin Vigil Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-06 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Community organization Undocumented immigrants -- San Diego County (Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oxnard (Calif.) San Diego County (Calif.) Tijuana (Baja California, Mexico) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lilian Serrano License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <p class="p2"><a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> <b></b></p> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-16 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-11-23 Activists and activism Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Latine experience Women's experience