11 10 208 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Cheryl Dinning OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DinningCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Knowles, Cheryl (Cheryl Dinning). Interview May 16, 2013 WAHA-01 00:00:00 HIST-01 CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories CSUSM This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. csusm United States. Navy ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Gay military personnel--United States ; Afghan War, 2001-2021 ; LGBTQ+ life Cheryl Dinning video DinningCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/404f80c9a30af3ea36457e736a0d34f2.mp4 Other video English 0 Knowles’ background and enlistment with the U.S. Navy Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning) discusses her place of birth and why and how she ended up enlisting in the United States Navy. Whittier, California ; enlistment ; U.S. Navy ; 9/11 terrorist attack ; Great Lakes, Illinois 0 138 Basic Training Knowles describes her experience during Basic Training, including her impressions, role within her unit, and what she learned. U.S. Navy Basic Training 0 255 Experience during Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell Knowles recounts her experience during A School, where she met a girl and started a relationship, and was eventually outed. Knowles describes her process to discharge, her secret romantic life, and how she escaped discharge, including her marriage to a sailor for the sake of appearances. Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell ; machinist training ; sham marriages ; discrimination ; A School 0 605 First tour of duty Knowles speaks to her first tour of duty, “shore duty” in San Diego repairing survival equipment sent out to ships. She also discusses being a woman and being in the closet in the Navy. shore duty ; San Diego, California ; woman and gay experience in the Navy 0 703 First onboard duty and first deployment Knowles recounts her first ship-side duty as a machinist on the USS Ronald Reagan, beginning 2005, and her first deployment in 2006, where Knowles deployed to Operation Iraqi Freedom. She speaks to the places she stopped on the way to deployment and “the sailor’s life.” Knowles goes into detail about life aboard the USS Ronald Reagan including her work duties, the food, the informal ship economy, and the “political game” of the military, and how she worked within it as a gay woman. Knowles also recounts the specifics of her deployment, and the best parts of being overseas. USS Ronald Reagan ; deployment ; Operation Iraqi Freedom ; machinist ; locksmithing ; ship life ; Subway [sandwiches] ; McDonald’s ; sexism ; shipboard politics ; Damage Control Central ; Dubai ; Ramadan 0 1340 Second deployment Knowles recalls her second deployment, which started six months after returning from her first, when President Obama started the Afghanistan troop surge. Knowles recounts their ship launching bombing runs over Afghanistan, prayer services for pilots onboard the USS Ronald Reagan, and her misgivings about those services. USS Ronald Reagan ; deployment ; Afghanistan war ; bombing runs ; shipboard prayer and religion 0 1446 Third deployment Knowles describes her third deployment aboard the USS Ronald Reagan, back to Afghanistan to “drop warheads on foreheads,” and her increasing disillusionment with the ongoing wars she was being deployed to. Knowles also speaks to her brief periods back home, and how her short time at home impacted her. USS Ronald Reagan ; deployment ; Afghanistan war ; bombing runs ; disillusionment ; binge drinking 0 1559 Fourth deployment and release Knowles briefly delves into her fourth deployment and finally, in July 2009, her release from ship life, where she returned to advanced machining school. USS Ronald Reagan ; deployment ; advanced machining school 0 1607 Shoreside life and loss Knowles recounts her partner’s fertility treatments and the birth of her two daughters, describing in detail the medical emergency and passing of one of her newborns. Knowles discusses the difficulty of therapy and leave time for her in the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell era, and how that policy impacted her grieving process. Knowles also recounts her use of Navy Fertility Services a year later, and the ways in which she benefitted from her time in the Navy, as well as the ways in which she views the hypocrisy of “The Sailor’s Creed” in how the U.S. Navy treats gays, women, and minorities. U.S. Navy Fertility Services ; Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell ; pregnancy ; infant mortality ; The Sailor’s Creed 0 1978 Separation from Navy Knowles briefly touches on her separation from the Navy and her joining of the U.S. Navy Reserves. separation ; U.S. Navy Reserves 0 2023 Interview conclusion, communication Knowles concludes her interview by talking about how the Navy facilitated communication with family and friends while she was deployed, as well as social media use in the Navy. communication ; email ; U.S. Postal Service ; Facebook ; calling cards 0 Interview with Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning), Petty Officer First Class, United States Navy. In her interview, Dinning discusses her enlistment, basic and advanced training, and four deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. Knowles also discusses life in the Navy, including shipboard life, as well as what it was like serving in the Navy as a lesbian during the Don't Act, Don't Tell era, an how if forced her to lead a double life and impacted her ability to be her genuine self and to grieve the loss of her daughter. &#13 ; &#13 ; This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:04.144 --> 00:00:05.365 &lt ; Silence&gt ; . 00:00:05.365 --> 00:01:02.155 My name is Cheryl Knowles. I was born in Whittier, California, a suburb of Los Angeles. I joined the Navy in April of 2002. I served during operation Iraqi and Enduring Freedom as an E-6. I come from a large extended family of military, mostly Army. I have uncles that are, uh, colonels and generals in the Army, uh, stationed on the East Coast. My grandfather, who I was closest to, was in the Air Force during the Vietnam War, and he pretty much inspired me to want to join the military, listening to his war stories and the time in the service. I decided pretty much when I was a kid that I wanted to join the military. I remember watching war movies and school, movies about boarding school and military schools. And I was always fascinated with that life. And I just knew, I knew in high school that I was going to join. 00:01:02.155 --> 00:02:18.094 I tried to do the college thing after high school and get a real job in the civilian world, live out on my own, uh, before I joined the military. And it wasn't until after 9/11, uh, which reaffirmed my assumptions that that's where I belonged. Six months after the 9/11 attack, I found myself in a Marine recruiting office. Um, they sent me on my way though, saying that I had too many tattoos. My next stop was the Army recruiting office. And, I probably could have joined the army, but I was looking to pretty much ship out the next day, and their process was taking a little bit longer. And on my way back to my car, just walking past the Navy recruiter, which I had no intentions of going in and talking to them, um, a couple sailors pulled me inside and said, Hey, you know, what are you doing here? Are you interested in the Navy? I'm like, yeah, but you know, I got tattoos, and, you know. And they're like, come with us, we'll get you in. So I did the testing, the physical process, and I was shipped off to Great Lakes, Illinois two weeks later for bootcamp. 00:02:18.094 --> 00:03:21.000 Navy Basic Training was great. I had a great time. It was basically summer camp gone wrong, you know, coming from trying to live on my own as a young teenager, young adult, and working in the civilian world struggling to get by. I now had people walking me to medical, making me get my teeth clean, walking me to breakfast, lunch and dinner. And, you know, I got eight hours of sleep at night, and pretty much everything was done for us. You basically just had to keep your mouth shut and your head down, and that's how it went. Um, I made a lot of friends in basic training. I was kind of like the, the unit clown. I had a sense of humor about everything just because I was a little bit older than the other recruits. So, I was a little more boisterous than the others. And, you know I got in a little bit of trouble here and there, but it was mostly "drop and gimme twenty" or "gimme some pushups and sit-ups." But, you know, I was all about that. So, I had a great time with it. 00:03:21.000 --> 00:04:15.205 Basic training was interesting in the sense that this was the first time I was in a large group of people from basically all walks of life, people from all over the country. We had people from different countries, different religious views, political views, crazy people, weird people, funny people. So it was, um, it was a learning, it was a learning experience, trying to get used to working together as a team with people that think differently than you. But it was a good time! And I learned a lot about people, and I learned a lot about different parts of the country and how diverse we are. But, you know, we came together and we worked as a team, and we all survived via nine weeks of basic training together. 00:04:15.205 --> 00:10:05.000 Upon finishing basic training, I was sent right across the street with my A School. I was going to a machinist training school that was about eleven weeks long. There I met, um, I met a girl, and this was during the Don't Ask, Don't Tell era. And we were in the same school together. We hung out a lot. We ended up dating. We tried to keep it, you know, on the DL just because we were scared of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. And we had heard horror stories about people being outed and kicked out of the military. Um, word got out that we were dating or people thought we were dating, and they reported us to the higher-ups. So one day we both showed up to school, and we were escorted out of school by military police, and we were placed in separate interrogating rooms where we were both asked questions about our sexuality and our relationships to each other. We really didn't have any idea what was going on. It caught us off guard. Um, we didn't admit to anything. We were, you know, basically scared out of our minds because we both wanted to make twenty-year careers out of the Navy. And here they were starting the process to discharge us for homosexual conduct. We were taken out of our training school, and we were placed on a legal hold status where we weren't allowed to continue trading. And they were basically processing us out of the military without any evidence or confessions or anything, just based off of a statement that a roommate I had had made. During that time, we were still allowed to go off base and hang out and stuff, and we did, you know, we weren't doing anything wrong. We would go to Chicago and hang out. We had a hotel that we would go and stay at on the weekends, and the hotel owner would check us in under a male and female name that wasn't our own names, just to kind of cover us, you know, we were staying in the gay area of Chicago. So it was kind of--it was kind of cool and kind of sneaky where we would check in as Mr. and Mrs. something other than what our name was. But basically we were, we were hiding. We were trying to be ourselves, but, you know--in a different, I don't know, identity I guess. Um, one night we were at a club, a gay club in Chicago, and we were just hanging out, having a couple drinks, and in walks one of our chiefs, You can imagine the surprise on her face, you know, we're in a gay bar and here comes one of our superiors walks in. I don't know how she found us, but she basically wanted to tell us that she was gonna go to bat for us, we were gonna be okay, and that we both needed to find a male and, uh, get married. I had met another gay, uh, sailor. His name was Chris. And we were pretty good friends, and we all hung out together. So in my attempt to find a "husband," I pretty much told him the scenario is, "Hey, I need to get married and portray myself as a heterosexual female, and I need a husband, you know? Are you down for it?" And, you know, he thought about it, and it ended up benefiting us both because we would get paid the rate of a married a couple for housing and stuff like that. So, we went to a courthouse in Chicago. We exchanged vows and had an awkward peck on the cheek, and voila, we were married. My girlfriend at the time, Tara, she also got married. She married a friend of a service member who was an immigrant of Poland. And, he needed citizenship. She needed a husband, so she can look like a heterosexual female to stay in the Navy, and so they got married. So here we are, both E-1s, um, scared out of our mind thinking we're gonna get kicked out of the Navy and having to get married to a male. It was just, it was weird. It was awkward, it felt wrong. I had to tell my family about it. It was just--the whole situation was unpleasant. It was scary. Um, I felt like we were targeted and discriminated against, and that's just part of Don't Ask, Don't Tell in the military during that time. After the charges got dropped against us for homosexual conduct, we were both free and clear to finish tech school. And, um, that's what we did for the rest of our time in Chicago. You know, we laid low, made plans to get stationed with our respective "husbands," and just tried to stay out of trouble. I got stationed in San Diego. It was my first duty tour. I joined the Navy to get out of California and to explore the world. So you can imagine my surprise when I saw orders that I was going back to Southern California. I wasn't too happy about it, but it turned out to be a good experience. 00:10:05.000 --> 00:11:43.315 My first tour was on shore duty in San Diego. I was repairing survival equipment that was sent out to the ships, like life rafts and survival food kits and stuff like that. I was the only female working there, and there was probably about twelve males. And the first thing that I got asked when I checked in, uh, had nothing to do with my training, my abilities, my goals. They wanted to know if I was married, and once I told 'em I was married, they wanted to know where he was for how long and it was just like this weird, invasive personal interrogation into my life. But, you know, it just--it just set the tone for the rest of my military career and I know it's a very male dominated profession. And as a female, you have to work twice as hard to prove yourself. And that's what I did the whole time I worked there was I worked, uh, I tried to keep my personal life, my personal life. I had to lie about what I was doing on the weekends and who I was doing it with. Um, you know, and then it was--it was hard. It's hard to live like that and work in an environment where you can't talk about who you went to dinner with the night before, or--or what you're gonna do that weekend. You just, you have to make things up and make it vanilla and cookie cutter and non-interesting. So they stopped asking questions. 00:11:43.315 --> 00:13:11.845 I worked there for two years, and then I got transferred to my first ship, which was the USS Ronald Reagan. I felt comfortable taking orders there because my girlfriend from A School who became my best friend--uh, the dating thing didn't really work out with us. But, she was stationed there. And her supervisor, or my supervisor too, was also gay. So I felt comfortable taking orders there. I was excited and looking forward to it. And I checked on board in February of 2005. We spent a lot of time out to sea that year. In preparation for the ship's first deployment. We deployed for the first time in January of 2006. And, uh, we were heading over to the Operation Iraqi Freedom. On the way there, we stopped in a few countries ; Australia, Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, um--and I think Japan. But we would stop in these countries for three or four days at a time, and we'd get off the ship, go blow some steam out in town, do a lot of drinking. The guys would all go get hookers and--it's the sailor life, I guess. 00:13:11.845 --> 00:14:21.000 My job aboard the ship was a machinist. So I worked down in the machine shop with about twelve other machinists. And we were also connected with the welders who also did the plumbing. So we were involved with the ship's sanitation system as well. And there was a lot of times where I was knee deep in a bathroom that's overflowed with, uh, with poop and pee, trying to stop it from flooding the rest of the ship. I was also the ship's only locksmith. I went to a security institute in Kentucky and got trained on basic locksmithing and safes and vaults. So, on an aircraft carrier there's typically three to four thousand safes. So I kept pretty busy. I was also the only locksmith for our battle group, which included about six other ships as well. So whenever something would break on another ship I would helicopter off my ship and spend the night on another boat for a night or two until it took me to, uh, however long it took me to do the repair. 00:14:21.000 --> 00:17:31.000 Ship life is interesting. Um, we lived in a small confined space with about sixty females. Our racks were stacked three high. The middle rack is the ideal place to, you know, to sleep. So eventually I got a middle rack. We had a small locker, and our mattress lifted up, which exposed more storage space. There wasn't much room for storage, so you pretty much took what you could, the basics. Underwear, socks, and t-shirts. A few pairs of civilian clothes, and the rest was room for your uniforms and toiletries. We had two showers for sixty females. Three toilets and two sinks. You would imagine that it would be super crowded in the mornings, but with the way shifts work out the sea, we have a night shift, the day shift, um, people that sleep a little bit later because they had watched throughout the night or whatnot. So, mornings were a little bit crowded, but it wasn't ridiculous as you would think it would be with sixty females trying to, you know, line up for two showers. The food was good starting out on deployment. The farther away from the United States, you get, the more food you get imported from different places. So once we got to the Middle East, the milk, uh, changed color and texture. The lettuce, by the time it would reach us was brown. Vegetables weren't really good. Lunch meat was--colorful, but, um, ship life is about networking. So if you know somebody who works in the galley or works in the chiefs' mess or where the officers eat and you can do something for them, then you're gonna get taken care of food-wise. I ran the laser engraving shop that--you know, I can make signed, engraved coffee cups or pretty much anything. So, pretty--everybody wanted to send home gifts to their family. So I did a lot of engraving of personal items in return for real food and cooked food and cookies and snacks and stuff like that. I got my laundry done, so I rarely had to wait in line to use the washers and dryers, which is mass chaos on a ship. Um, I also--I did some work for the post office, you know, on the side. And when they would fly on mail, the postal guys on shore would go and pick up pizzas or Subway and throw 'em in the mailbox--mail bags. And even though it took a few hours or eight hours to reach the ship, by the time he got those cold McDonald's hamburgers or pizza, they were the best, best things you've ever had. 00:17:31.000 --> 00:19:34.000 Um, being a worker in engineering, I had to prove myself as a female. Like I said, you had to work twice as hard to prove that you could do the job of a male, and it was common for girls or females to, you know, not want to do their job, and they'd get placed in more like an admin type of a setting and less engineering, less hands-on. And that's just what some, you know, females prefer. But I wanted to be out there with the guys getting my hands dirty and stuff, so that's what I did. And it took a while but I gained the respect of the guys that I worked with, and they pretty much--they just start thinking of you as one of the guys. My sexuality was never an issue while I was on that ship. I worked with some of the coolest guys you'd ever meet. They treated me fairly. We made gay jokes or whatever, and, you know, it was cool. I was just like one of the guys. The military is kind of a game. It's a political game. It's all about who you know, good ole' boys club, and doing what you got to do to--to get ahead. Promotions and evaluations aren't based fairly, It's based on who likes you and its popularity contest. On my ship, I learned to play the game, and I did it well, and I got good evals. Sometimes you have to keep your mouth shut and let things slide, like, you know, I put up with some sexual harassment and--and stuff like that, and physical assaults. But, I just felt at the time that this is the way it is, and me complaining about something that's going on would just come back negatively on myself. And so, you just learn to let things go and kind of just join in, I guess. 00:19:34.000 --> 00:20:45.935 Being deployed to the Iraq area of operation, um, it was really hot out there. The food that we got on board, it wasn't good. We spent long hours working, because the air conditioning would stop working or we'd have problems making water. So, uh, we were pulling like eighteen-hour days. On top of that we would have watches in the middle of the night where we would sit down in Damage Control Central. We were basically the 9-1-1 / 4-1-1 dispatcher for the entire ship. Um, we had four hour watches while we were out to sea, and they rotated throughout the day. So if you ended up working from seven in the morning until ten at night, and then you had to be on watch from midnight to four am and you're only gonna get about two hours sleep before you had to get up and start working again. And that was just the way it was. You know, we just, we lived on Red Bull and taking Xenadrine and, you know, little sleep. 00:20:45.935 --> 00:22:20.000 Some of the best parts of deploying overseas were visiting different countries on the way to our area of operation and on the way home. Um, checking out the different cultures in Asia was a lot of fun. And I learned a lot about bargaining and drinking and met some really nice people. Um, a lot of, uh, a lot of shadiness goes on behind the scenes with people trying to solicit themselves sexually or trying to sell us drugs and aftermarket, fake watches and stuff like that. But, um, there was a lot of people that got in trouble, you know, no doubt. But, every time we would pull into a port, they would brief us on what to look out for, different customs and courtesies in the country, what to do, what not to do. Like, we pulled into Dubai and it was the end of Ramadan, so, they basically told us that we weren't allowed to drink until Ramadan was over. And that people, you know, they would stop throughout the day and pray and stuff, and just to stand by, let them pray and then continue on what we're doing, not to keep talking and yelling or taking pictures and stuff like that. Basically just telling us how to act. 00:22:20.000 --> 00:24:06.555 Six months after returning from our first deployment, President Obama started the surge to Afghanistan. And, we were the first aircraft carrier to be sent over there. So, just as we were unpacking from a deployment, we were throwing our stuff back in our sea bag and getting ready to head out again. This one, uh, we didn't have as many port visits just because we were in a quick hurry to get over where we needed to be. And, once we got there, we basically launched planes that drop bombs over Afghanistan and return. And it was pretty cool because they would record it and they would play it on the ship's TVs. And we'd get to watch like bombs drop, and you can see the explosions and stuff like that. What I found interesting was, every night before we go to sleep, the chaplain comes on the ship's intercom and does an evening prayer. I'm not religious at all. And I was actually, you know, I got kind of tired of having to listen to evening prayers every night because I felt like they were kind of forcing prayer and religion in the military. But I don't know. Anyways, they would--they would pray and, um, they would pray for the safety of our pilots as we're dropping bombs that are killing essentially civilians and people. And they were just, I don't know, using Christianity to justify war, I guess. And I mean, I'm not an expert on the Bible, but I'm--you know, isn't God and religion against war? And here we are, interpreting the Bible to justify what we're doing over there. 00:24:06.555 --> 00:25:25.000 Our surge deployment lasted about four months, and then we were headed back to San Diego or, you know, home port. And then, um, we deployed again the next year back to Afghanistan, where we sat off the coast for six months, doing the same thing. Flying jets, uh, "dropping warheads on foreheads." And by this time, this was my third deployment in three years. I was over it. I'm like, why are we here? What are we doing? You know, when we first deployed to Iraq, I was like, why? What are we here? What are we doing? If we're here because of 9/11 and the bad guys are in Afghanistan, why are we looking for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? But anyways, you just don't question anything. I guess you just do your job like a good soldier or sailor. But by my third deployment, I was--you know I was tired. Tired. I didn't believe in the mission anymore. I wanted to go home, I missed my family. I had missed funerals and weddings, and my nephew was born. I was just tired of it, and I was like, what is this for? Why am I doing all this? 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:59.184 Time in port turns into drink fests because you didn't know when you were going to be deployed or sent out to sea again. And our schedule was so busy. We'd come back from a six-month deployment, and we'd be home for, you know, two weeks, then we'd be back out to sea doing exercises again for another month. So being home was like a--we treated it like a port visit, so it was just like nonstop partying and drinking, and, you know, it was just, it was just, it was bad. &lt ; laugh&gt ; . 00:25:59.184 --> 00:26:47.955 By the time my fourth deployment came around, I was just about to transfer to a new duty station, but I still left and did half the deployment with my ship and my crew. Um, and I was way over it by then. I'm like, I don't want to do anything. So I, I just pretty much chilled and hung out and talked with everybody and didn't really take much seriously. And then in July of 2009, I was finally, you know, released from ship life. And I was sent back to the States to go to advanced machining school before I went to my next command. And I was pretty excited because I was gonna be off the ship for two years, and I could sustain some sort of normalcy in my life. 00:26:47.955 --> 00:30:38.914 During this time on shore duty, my partner and I--we had been together since right before my second deployment in 2007. So this is 2009 now. And we were in our thirties, so, you know, we're discussing kids and stuff, and we, uh, we started using fertility treatments through the military, in order to get pregnant. And while I was on shore duty, my partner Nicole, she got pregnant with twins, and I was able to be there for all of the doctor's appointments. Although I had to lie and say I had medical appointments to go to, and I was very fortunate that nobody ever questioned me where I was going or why I was leaving early. I was basically allowed to--I was in charge of the, uh, the machine shop, so I pretty much did what I wanted to do. The work still got done though, but I prioritized my personal life a little bit above what was going on at work. The twins were born prematurely in February of 2009. And, one of 'em quickly deteriorated and had to be transferred to a children's hospital. This got a little complicated with work because, I wasn't able to talk about, you know, the fact that I was about to be a parent. The fact that I had a partner, or the fact that I had an infant that was really, really sick. So the next day after they were born, I had to go back to work, and I had to leave Nicole in the hospital with one baby, and the other one was at (Rady) Children's Hospital. I got a phone call while I was work saying that I needed to get to the hospital, right away at Children's Hospital. And I had to drive over to UCSD to get Nicole discharged as soon as she could. She'd had a C-section. She could barely walk, but I kind of threw her in the car. And we got over to Children's Hospital, and we were able to hold our daughter before she, she died. Uh, she had a heart defect that caused other problems, and she didn't make it. I was still in uniform that day, just because I had come from work, and I knew that there was no way that I could go back to work that day or the next day. I just didn't know what to do. So, I got ahold of the Command Master Chief. I was pretty sure that she was gay, even though she was a Command Master Chief. So she's playing the political game of, um, hiding it, I guess. Anyways she wanted--she made me lie and say that it was my sister and my sister's baby that died. And, um, I mean, I was able to go on emergency leave or whatever, but I wasn't allowed the same, I don't know, grievance, um, bereavement leave of somebody else who had a close family member die, or the counseling and the support really, from the command. Usually if there was a death or a problem of command, we'd all pull together and raise money and send flowers or anything just for, you know, for everybody, for anything. But, you know, this tragic situation I was going through had to be a secret and a lie. 00:30:38.914 --> 00:31:40.204 A year later. I used Navy Fertility Services to, um--and I got pregnant this time. We already had our daughter, Avery, who was about one years old, and I got pregnant with our second child, Luca, through the Navy. And, I was discharged off of active duty before she was actually born. But, you know, if there's anything about the Navy that I could say good is they take care of, they take care of you. The fertility center never questioned. Um, you know, where's your husband? Why are you infertile? They gave me the medicines, did the procedures, and never asked questions. So, you know, because of the Navy, I've got two beautiful girls. I was able to buy a house. I'm able to use my post-9/11 GI Bill. I'm studying at Cal State San Marcos, about to transfer to UMass Boston. I mean, I just, I wouldn't be where I'm at today if it wasn't for the Navy. 00:31:40.204 --> 00:32:58.000 With that said, I did endure a bunch of bullshit along the way. You know, being a gay service member during Don't Ask, Don't Tell. The last line of (The) Sailor's Creed is, "I'm committed to excellence and the fair treatment of all." And we say The Sailor's Creed every single morning, and we say it before award ceremonies, we say it when we go through promotion boards, and I'm like, who wrote this thing? And fair treatment of all of, of all? Of all, except for gays, except for women, except for minorities, you know, fair treatment of all. It's a bunch of crap. I guess I do hold a lot of resentment, because I was out there defending, uh, defending freedoms that I myself couldn't even take for granted. Like I couldn't even say that I was in a relationship with somebody. I couldn't get spousal marriage privileges to who I really wanted to be married to. Instead, I had to marry a guy who I didn't even really like anymore. But, I was getting extra benefits for that. You know, the system's definitely flawed. 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:43.516 I separated in February, 2012. The military started downsizing. So I finished my reenlistment and I was denied my request to reenlist. So I joined the Navy Reserves, and that's what I'm doing now. Um, I don't like it. I don't want to do it anymore. Um, I'm kind of, I feel like I've finished what I needed to do with the military. I'm just, I'm just ready to move on and do something else. And I am proud of what I did and all I accomplished and what The Navy has done for me. But I think it's time to go. 00:33:43.516 --> 00:35:37.516 Just to answer some of the, uh, the stuff that that's on this outline. As far as communication with family and friends, communication was pretty good. We had email most of the time, unless we had some, some tragic event or we were in harm's way or something, they would shut down email. And the internet, we weren't allowed to use it. But that never lasted longer than a day. So email, we had letters through the postal service, which mail took forever. So basically email. And then towards the end of my last deployment, they started allowing Facebook. They quickly turned it away. I mean turned it off, since people started posting our deployment schedule. But for a while we did have Facebook. We did have internet and the mail. So that's how we did communicating. We also had, uh, sailor phones. It was a dollar a minute, and you would buy a calling card and you can use that. Or if you knew somebody that worked in the communications department, you could use the ship's line. And, there were different codes. To open a line, you can just call out. So, I was able to call my family a lot, and I was constantly on email, so communication was never too big of an issue. Email was basically the reason I got up in the morning. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DinningCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16.xml DinningCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/4/resources/55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Knowles, Cheryl (Cheryl Dinning). Interview May 16, 2013 Description An account of the resource Interview with Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning), Petty Officer First Class, United States Navy. In her interview, Dinning discusses her enlistment, basic and advanced training, and four deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. Knowles also discusses life in the Navy, including shipboard life, as well as what it was like serving in the Navy as a lesbian during the Don't Act, Don't Tell era, an how if forced her to lead a double life and impacted her ability to be her genuine self and to grieve the loss of her daughter. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-01 Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001-2021 Gay military personnel -- United States Iraq War, 2003-2011 LGBTQ+ life United States. Navy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> CSUSM Veterans Voices LGBTQIA+ experience Veteran experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ea24b429155af41d444a44919d85e657.pdf ab3045bf6d40ed747bf10654c0b06d48 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Knowles, Cheryl (Cheryl Dinning). Interview transcript, May 16, 2013. Description An account of the resource Transcript of interview of Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning), Petty Officer First Class, United States Navy. In her interview, Knowles discusses her enlistment, basic and advanced training, and four deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. Knowles also discusses life in the Navy, including shipboard life, as well as what it was like serving in the Navy as a lesbian during the Don't Act, Don't Tell era, and how it forced her to lead a double life and impacted her ability to be her genuine self and to grieve the loss of her daughter. This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. Portions of this interview were edited, including the removal of the interviewer from the recording. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Anthony Mino California State University San Marcos. History Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-16 Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001-2021 Gay military personnel--United States Great Lakes Naval Training Center (Great Lakes, Ill.) Iraq War, 2003-2011 LGBTQ+ life United States. Navy United States. Navy -- Recruiting, enlistment, etc. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Afghanistan Dubai Iraq San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived War At Home and Abroad oral histories Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/4/resources/55">CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories</a> (external link) Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KnowlesCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16_transcript Community history CSUSM Veterans Voices LGBTQIA+ experience Veteran experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ed Labrado OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LabradoEd_BeyerJason_2025-11-17_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Labrado, Ed. Interview November 17th, 2025. SC027-096 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran Captain U.S. Army Signal Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Europe Santa Barbara (Calif.) Ed Labrado Jason Beyer Moving image LabradoEd_BeyerJason_2025-11-17_access 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/72bced0e8ce919f692fcb5724a7d099c.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and Biography Edwin Joseph Labrado Jr. was a captain in the U.S. Army Signal Corps. He was deployed in Europe during the Vietnam War and the Cold War. Labrado was born and raised in Santa Barbara, California, where he graduated from UC Santa Barbara and completed the U.S. Army's four-year ROTC program. His father served as a combat engineer in the 6th Armored Division during World War II. United States Army ; Captain ; United States Army Signal Corps ; Vietnam War ; Cold War ; Europe ; Santa Barbara (Calif.) ; UC Santa Barbara ; General George S. Patton ; Third United States Army ; The Super Sixth ; The 6th Armored Division ; Army ROTC ; Reserve Officers' Training Corps 0 163 Decision to Enlist in the U.S. Army Labrado graduated in June 1968. He was assigned to the Army Signal Corps based on his ROTC training, performance, and preferences. Army ; Reserve Officers' Training Corps ; Port Hueneme ; California ; Ventura (Calif.) ; Camp Roberts ; Santa Barbara (Calif.) ; M1 Garand ; World War I ; Korean War ; M14 ; M16 ; Signal Corps 0 348 Early Days of Military Service and Working with Computers After he was commissioned in the Signal Corps, Labrado completed a basic officer leaders course in Fort Gordon, Georgia. There he learned the tactical employment of communications equipment in the field. He then received additional training at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey and completed the Communications Officers Course. The course taught him about radios, data communication, and encryption. Labrado describes how encryption worked in the late 1960s using IBM computers. Signal Corps ; Basic Officer Leaders Course ; Fort Gordon ; Georgia ; Fort Monmouth ; New Jersey ; Communications Officers Course ; computer ; IBM ; card reader ; encryption ; missile systems ; launch codes 0 517 Assignment to Fort Ord in California and Experience with Burial Ceremonies After basic training, Labrado was assigned to a signal battalion at Fort Ord. There he supported communications training. Fort Ord was a large military establishment, and one of Labrado’s extra duties was organizing military funeral honors for servicemembers killed in action. Labrado tells a story about anti-war protesters at a military funeral in Oakland. At the cemetery, Labrado had to prevent conflict between veterans and protesters, and the protesters were kept from entering the cemetery grounds. Labrado says he respects freedom of speech but thinks it was disrespectful to protest at a burial ceremony. Fort Ord ; California ; Monterey (Calif.) ; signal battalion ; advanced training ; burial ceremony ; burial detail ; NCO ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; Oakland (Calif.) ; Vietnam War ; protest ; cemetery ; post-traumatic stress disorder ; PTSD 0 792 Hardest Adjustment to Military Life Labrado describes how difficult it was initially to adjust to military life. One’s living conditions, responsibilities, and deployment could change dramatically. These adjustments were especially difficult for those who were raising a family while in the military. Army ; Vietnam War ; living conditions ; family 0 904 Deployment to Europe Labrado begins his recollections of deployment with some background context on the Cold War in Europe. He describes how U.S. soldiers were deployed in Europe to deter a potential Soviet invasion. However, most U.S. soldiers who were deployed overseas were in Vietnam. Labrado recalls receiving information about growing anti-war sentiment in the United States, including the 1970 Bank of America burning in Isla Vista near UC Santa Barbara. Europe ; Cold War ; World War II ; Russia ; USSR ; The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics ; The Warsaw Pact ; NATO ; The North Atlantic Treaty Organization ; East Germany ; Soviet Union ; Western Germany ; Korea ; Vietnam ; University of California, Santa Barbara ; Isla Vista (Calif.) ; protest ; Bank of America 0 1195 Battalion Signal Officer in Europe In Europe, Labrado was a battalion signal officer for a Nike Hercules missile battalion that included nuclear warheads. Labrado described the political dynamics that determined why and how nuclear weapons could be deployed against the Soviet Union. battalion ; signal officer ; Nike Hercules ; missile ; nuclear war ; nuclear warhead ; Ramstein Air Base ; Western Europe ; NATO ; Germany ; Russia ; aircraft ; the JFK assassination ; Cuban Missile Crisis ; NCO 0 1420 Humorous Story in Europe Labrado tells a humorous story about when he and his soon-to-be wife, Linda, were stranded in the rain after his 1957 Volkswagen Beetle ran out of gas. They returned safely, but if he did not return to his duty station on time, he could have been labeled AWOL. France ; Germany ; 1957 Volkswagen Beetle ; AWOL ; Absent Without Leave 0 1528 Collecting Beer Glasses from German Gasthauses While deployed in Germany, Labrado would travel to inspect firing batteries. He would often stop at gasthauses for a meal. He collected about 30 beer glasses from the gasthauses. firing battery ; operations center ; Germany ; gasthaus ; glass 0 1615 End of Military Service and Transition to Civilian Life After military service, Labrado completed a master’s degree from UC Santa Barbara. His family was happy he returned, but he described the community’s feeling toward veterans as “lukewarm” at that time. He says that the Vietnam War’s unpopularity was reflected on to servicemen. Labrado thought it was awkward to serve when some citizens did not respect the military. He had a smooth transition back to civilian life, but he noticed that his non-military friends were further along in their careers. Santa Barbara ; education ; master's ; family ; Europe ; United States ; unjust war ; college ; male ; draft ; friends ; military ; career 0 1818 What More People Should Know About Veterans Labrado thinks veterans deserve greater recognition and respect, especially if they served in combat and have injuries or PTSD. Veterans’ families have also struggled with constant moving and absent family members. respect ; veteran ; serve ; combat ; post-traumatic stress disorder ; PTSD ; injuries 0 1882 Message for Future Generations Labrado wants future generations to understand that there was a real threat of nuclear war with the Soviet Union. Labrado argues that deterrence worked and prevented the Soviet Union from invading NATO countries. He thinks that the threat of nuclear war is horrific and that it would be even worse today due to advances in military technology. Russia ; threat ; nuclear war ; Europe ; Vietnam ; Western Europe ; Eastern Europe ; Europe ; NATO ; Ukraine ; Nagasaki (Japan) ; warhead ; intercontinental missile ; deterrence 0 2113 Life Lessons from Military Service In his reflections on military service, Labrado refers to President John F. Kennedy’s statement urging Americans to ask what they can do for their country. He thinks it is important for people to serve their country in some capacity. In the military, he learned how to manage and motivate people, which he believes are important skills for private sector employment. reflection ; military service ; John F. Kennedy ; Peace Corps ; military ; country ; motivate ; supervision ; skills 0 Oral history Edwin Joseph Labrado Jr. was a captain in the U.S. Army Signal Corps. He was deployed in Europe during the Vietnam War. Labrado was born and raised in Santa Barbara, where he graduated from UCSB and completed the Army's four-year ROTC program. After graduation, he was assigned to the Army Signal Corps and later deployed to Europe. In Europe, he served as a battalion signal officer for a Nike Hercules missile battalion that had nuclear warheads. Some of his other responsibilities included communications training, military funeral honors, and the inspection of firing batteries. In this oral history interview, Labrado reflected on the Cold War, the US anti-Vietnam War movement, and how Americans treat veterans after military service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:03.345 --> 00:00:43.424 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of CSUSM (California State University San Marcos). Today's date is Monday, November 17, 2025. And we're conducting this interview at CSUSM in the CSUSM library, located in San Marcos, California. Today I'll be interviewing veteran Edwin Lebrado Jr. This oral history will help preserve the lived experiences of United States military veterans. Please state your name—your full name. 00:00:43.424 --> 00:00:47.314 I'm Edwin Joseph Labrado Jr. 00:00:47.314 --> 00:00:49.424 Your branch of service. 00:00:49.424 --> 00:00:51.265 The United States Army. 00:00:51.265 --> 00:00:53.524 The highest rank that you attained? 00:00:53.524 --> 00:00:57.905 I was captain in the Army's Signal Corps (United States Army Signal Corps). 00:00:57.905 --> 00:01:02.674 And then please state the war or conflict that was happening during your time in service. 00:01:02.674 --> 00:01:10.314 Well, actually there was several. One was the Vietnam War was going on, and also the Cold War in Europe as well. 00:01:10.314 --> 00:01:16.885 Okay. So now we're gonna begin with introductions. Where were you born and raised? 00:01:16.885 --> 00:01:26.795 I was born in Santa Barbara, California, and I went to school there—elementary school, high school, and I went to UC Santa Barbara. 00:01:26.795 --> 00:01:30.635 What was life like for you growing up in Santa Barbara? 00:01:30.635 --> 00:01:43.944 Well, I really enjoyed it. It's a beautiful area. It's right by the coast, and I thought I had a great childhood there. 00:01:43.944 --> 00:01:48.194 Did anyone in your family ever serve in the military before you? 00:01:48.194 --> 00:02:14.264 Yeah, my dad did. My dad served with Patton's Third Army (General George S. Patton ; Third United States Army), and he was in what they call the "Super Sixth," the 6th Armored Division. And he participated in the invasion of Europe all the way through the end of the war. And he was a combat engineer. 00:02:14.264 --> 00:02:20.224 What were you doing before you joined the service? Did you hold any jobs or were you attending school? 00:02:20.224 --> 00:02:43.705 Well, like I said, I went to the University of California, Santa Barbara, and basically I was working on my bachelor's there, and that was my prior experience—prior to entering the Army. I was in the Army's ROTC program (Reserve Officers' Training Corps), and there I participated in their four year program. 00:02:43.705 --> 00:02:51.275 What led to your decision to serve? Were you drafted or did you enlist or were you commissioned as an officer? 00:02:51.275 --> 00:04:22.425 Well, as I mentioned, I was part of the reserve officers' training program there. So after the four years, you are commissioned in the Army. There was approximately—when I started—around 200 cadets that first started out, and about a hundred of us graduated in June of 1968. And our program, again, was a four year program. And we were trained essentially as infantry. We went to classes, and we also trained—like Port Hueneme—on some of the weekends. Port Hueneme is a naval facility near Ventura (California). And then we also trained at Camp Roberts, which is just up the coast from Santa Barbara. And we would train—in those days we used an M1 rifle, which is the old rifle—actually it was called a Garand. It was used in World War I in the Korean War. And so we got to use that initially, and then gradually we then used the M14 and then the M16, And then we would go to Camp Roberts some weekends where we would learn more about, you know, basic tactics, map reading and things like that to supplement our classwork, which was usually regarding military law, tactics, and history types of programs. 00:04:22.425 --> 00:04:28.084 Why did you choose the specific branch that you joined, that you served in? 00:04:28.084 --> 00:05:48.644 Well, I was in the Signal Corps. And the way the Army works—which is probably like the other services—they more or less can request certain areas or branches, and that's real important because that branch basically is your job during your service in the military. And in our program, the ROTC program, you are ranked for the entire nation for all the colleges that are graduating their officers. And you're ranked, and based on that ranking they give you priority in terms of your selections—you usually get three selections. And I was fortunate enough to get one of my three, which was the Signal Corps. But the Army is a big organization—probably one of the largest—and so we have a lot of branches. We have like 17 branches. We normally have like the ones you would think of—the infantry, armor and artillery—but we have the chemical corps, the ordinance corps, the veterinarian corps. We have all these different corps. So once you're selected, actually, for a particular branch, then that becomes the branch that you will usually remain in for the balance of your service. 00:05:48.644 --> 00:06:01.074 So we're moving on to your early days of your military experience. What kind of training or schooling did you complete while you were in the early days of service? 00:06:01.074 --> 00:07:43.285 Well, once you're commissioned—let's say in the Signal Corps, in my case—then you have to go to what they call a basic officers leadership course (Basic Officer Leaders Course). And there you learn your job, and it's usually a couple—two months, usually eight weeks—and each branch, you know, has different requirements. And in my case, the Signal Corps, the basic course was in Fort Gordon, Georgia. And there you learn how the tactical employment of communications equipment out in the field, because usually when you graduate from there, then you wind up going into the artillery, infantry or armor—and so those are combat, we call 'em combat branches—so there you need to know how to interact with that type of environment. And then, some folks are selected to go in additional training—like I was selected to go to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, where I was in a course called the Communications Officers Course. And there I learned how to operate radios, and that was the branch that was involved in data communications, encryption, you know, things like that. And that was a eight-week course as well. So that was kind of like a summary of the training that you would get after you are initially inducted into the Army. 00:07:43.285 --> 00:07:49.305 What was it like training with encryption and learning that? 00:07:49.305 --> 00:08:37.995 It was real interesting. I was kind of interested in computers and the like. And you have to remember, this is back in 1969 and a lot of the computers were these old IBMs where you use these cards—IBM cards that you punch out. You know, the different holes, and they had card readers. And so computers were at its infancy—but you know we were progressing. And encryption was important because later I wound up in missile systems. And there encryption is a really big deal because you have, you know, the codes—launch codes for nukes and stuff. And so that was really helpful to me, you know, to get that kind of a background before I actually got assigned to a unit. 00:08:37.995 --> 00:08:41.595 What was your first assignment after basic training? 00:08:41.595 --> 00:09:31.715 Well, I was assigned to Fort Ord, California, which is just up the coast. It's close to Monterey. And it was—I really enjoyed it there because I liked the weather and everything, but this was a very large fort there. And I was assigned to a signal battalion. And my job was to support the units—the infantry units primarily—that were in training there with communication and also support some of the schools they had there for advanced training. Usually when you have basic training, the enlisted men undergo further training—like in radios or wiremen and whatever—and we also supported those units as well. 00:09:31.715 --> 00:09:41.504 When you were at Fort Ord, I remember recalling during your pre-interview, didn't you have a special assignment for like burial ceremonies? 00:09:41.504 --> 00:11:54.544 Yes. When you're—in the military you always get extra duties, and because Fort Ord had a large military establishment, when a serviceman was killed in action and the family wanted a burial detail—which was the highest level where they would have, you know, riflemen for the rifle squad for the volley. And then they would also probably have six pallbearers, a bugler and an NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer). They would usually have a lieutenant go with that detail to provide services, you know, for the service member that was killed in action. And for us, it's a big deal when a serviceman gets injured or in this case killed, the utmost respect and honor is allocated to him and his family. And so I would be in charge of putting it all together—getting all the soldiers together and trying to make sure they're trained. And a lot, you know, of this work is done with the NCOs because they're the experts in these areas. And we would take a van—usually a small bus sometimes. But in one case we went up to Oakland, and we went there and there were protesters there—'cause this was in 1969, '70, so there was a lot of protesting the Vietnam War. And so it was really disheartening to us because when we entered the cemetery there were protestors there and they had signs that they were chanting, you know. And some of the signs that, you know, like they were like, "A life wasted," you know. And really derogatory kinds of messages. (Phone ringtone plays and automated voice says, "Unknown caller." The phone is silenced.) I thought I turned that thing off. Is it off? 00:11:54.544 --> 00:12:01.955 So back to the—so there was a service member that was being buried? 00:12:01.955 --> 00:13:12.394 Correct. And so I'm in this bus with probably about 20 soldiers, and most of them have just returned from Vietnam. And most of them had, you know, post-traumatic stress (Post-traumatic stress disorder ; PTSD). So they were real upset. And so, you know, we had to be—I had to contain them and make sure they'd get off the bus. And fortunately when we got into the cemetery, they had a gate there. So these protestors were not able to get in onto the grounds of the cemetery, which was good because that way they didn't interfere with the ceremony. But, you know, I get it. You know, people have a right to freedom of speech. You know, that's one of the things that soldiers do—they try to uphold the constitution. But there comes a point where, you know, you can get to a limit where it's just not respectful, you know, to do that in this type of a situation—especially a ceremony—a burial ceremony. 00:13:12.394 --> 00:13:17.514 What was the hardest adjustment to military life for you? 00:13:17.514 --> 00:15:04.634 Well, I think that initially when you get in the military, it's a whole new environment. I mean, it's 24/7 when you get into the military. You don't control necessarily where you go. I mean, you can ask to go to certain forts and certain locations, but you really don't have a final say. It's that whole saying, you know, "The military will put you where they need you," or, "The Army will assign you where they need you." And especially when there's a war like the Vietnam War going on, then yeah, you wind up going anywhere you want. You get—you move constantly. And you're constantly having to go and learn different kinds of tasks even though you're within a certain branch. You have to learn to work with different people, different superiors and all. That's fine, but it's very condensed. It happens a lot more often, especially when you're first starting off. You have to go into different training environments and you have to adapt. And a lot depends on rank, too. I mean, if you're a Private E1 one, you know, you don't get the same kind of benefits you would as a Second Lieutenant. I mean, the living conditions—and if you have a family, too. You know, it's awkward, constantly moving around, especially if you deploy overseas. Sometimes you can move with your family to a house and the government provides—the military provides housing for you—sometimes not. So it's like going into a new world in a new environment. So you have to adapt. 00:15:04.634 --> 00:15:18.000 So we're moving on to your deployment experience when you first got to Europe. You had mentioned that you were stationed in Europe during the Cold War— 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:19.000 Mm-hmm. (Labrado nods his head affirmatively.) 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:21.764 —and so what was that like for you? 00:15:21.764 --> 00:18:22.664 Well, again, the Cold War occurred right after the end of World War II. And as you probably know, when the Russians liberated Europe, those countries that they liberated, they wanted to maintain their political system, so they became communist countries heavily influenced by Russia. And in those days, Russia had—sort of like the United States had—they had the United Soviet Socialist Republic (The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics). They were like a federation of states. They were like 17 states that encompassed the USSR. Plus they had the Warsaw Pact, which was another six or seven countries, and they sort of duplicated NATO (The North Atlantic Treaty Organization). And so in those days, back in the 1970s, for instance, Russia was a real prevalent opponent because they had like 22 countries that they could control in one way or the other. And one of those countries was East Germany—'cause East Germany was split in half—again—where the Russians had taken over the territory in Germany, that became dominated by Russia and became communist. Anyway, so in Europe we had of course NATO, and we were concerned with making sure that the Russians didn't invade—or the Soviet Union—Western Europe. So the problem was they were very close, you know? They were right on the borders. And so this was something where we as soldiers wanted to be sure that we were able to react and defend Western Europe. So that was kind of the situation. And simultaneously the Vietnam War was going on. And to give you a perspective, there was around 300,000 as I recall, military presence—U.S. presence—in Europe. And there was about 550,000 soldiers in Vietnam and around 65,000 in Korea. And so most of the focus was in Vietnam. But you couldn't leave Europe undefended because the Russians then might take advantage. And so it's one thing if you lose war in Vietnam, but a whole other scenario if you get into a conflict with Russia, because Russia has the nukes. And so you wanna make sure that that portion of the world is secure. So that's—so the environment that we were in way back in the 1970s. 00:18:22.664 --> 00:18:49.483 Was it—I've often heard one veteran describe it as, it was hard because you have the Vietnam War happening and then you're in Europe during the Cold War, and then there's protests happening stateside. One veteran described it as every time there was a protest, the Russians will get more bolder in Europe. Did you experience anything like that? 00:18:49.483 --> 00:19:55.825 Not a lot that I noticed. In terms of the protest, one of the things that was interesting to me is—I mentioned to you that I went to school at the University of California, Santa Barbara. Well, when I was in Europe, there was a community right next to the campus called Isla Vista, and the bank got burned as a result of a protest—an anti-war protest. It burned a Bank of America down. And I was in Europe at the time. And I was saying, "Wow." You know, 'cause this was a big deal for us, you know, to see that happening—especially in my case, which is right next to the school I graduated from. And I think that was—we got information about the protests and what was going on in the states, but it didn't directly affect us as far as I'm aware of in terms of deployments of any troops in Europe—Russian troops. 00:19:55.825 --> 00:20:01.464 What was your job in Europe to do while you were in Europe? 00:20:01.464 --> 00:23:40.233 Well, I was a battalion signal officer for a Nike Hercules missile battalion. And these are surface to air missiles. They're about 42 feet high, so they're big missiles. And their main objective is to shoot down medium- or high-altitude aircrafts—meaning bombers—and they're radar guided. And they are—we use them as—you can use 'em like for artillery—that is, you can hit land targets with it. We can also shoot down incoming missiles, but our main function would be to shoot down aircraft. And then also we had nuclear warheads on these missiles in the event that went into a nuclear war. And so we had—in my battalion, for instance, we had about 12 of these missiles deployed in various firing batteries. So we could shoot 12 off at one time. So the scenario would be, once the president declares war, we would get notified and then we would then react accordingly. And hopefully it would not be a nuclear war because that would be, you know, that would be horrible. And then we would then fire our missiles and deploy them, as, you know, required. And our main focus was to defend Ramstein Air Force Base—which was a large air force base in Western Europe—and also the NATO troops that were in the western portion of Germany. So usually what would happen when we go on alert is we saw a concentration of enemy, in this case, Russian troops concentrated in one area and like they were gonna deploy. Or if we saw any kind of aircraft coming over that looked like they were going in our airspace, we would then go on alert. And what would happen typically is the Russians would try to, you know, annoy us. They would send the planes towards our airspace and then the Air Force would send fighters out, and of course we would be ready to shoot down, you know, the Russian bombers or whatever if they got past the fighters. But they usually turned around, you know. They were just trying to make everybody aware that they were there. And then two, the other dimension is the political situation. Like, well, not so much the protestors was an issue, but if there was any kind of—well, like the JFK assassination, something like that, or the Cuban crisis (Cuban Missile Crisis), or any kind of real major assassination or political discord—then we would go on alert because we would not know how Russia would react. So we wanted to be sure, you know, that we were ready. So we were always on duty 24/7. I was really pleased that I had really good NCOs in my company because they were critical. I mean, those were the folks that actually did the work and made sure the men were doing their assigned tasks. So I was real fortunate in that respect. 00:23:40.233 --> 00:23:44.595 Were there any lighthearted memories or humorous events that you'd like to share? 00:23:44.595 --> 00:25:28.265 Well, there was one. My soon to be wife, Linda, she went to visit one of her relatives in France, so she went over to Germany. So we spent a couple of days—I got leave—and so I, at that time had a 1957 Volkswagen Beetle, and it was really kind of a relic in that it had—it only operated three out of four cylinders and it rusted out all of the floor of—the vehicle had rusted out because, you know, they use a lot of salt and it snows a lot. And so you could actually put your foot completely down into the road. So we put a piece of plywood there. And the other cool part of that VW was it didn't have a gas meter, so you never knew how much gas you had. So you had this little knob that if you saw the car sputtering, you twist the knob one direction and you get another gallon of gas and you go to a gas station. Anyway, what happened is it started to rain and we got stranded in the middle of nowhere in this VW and we were trying to figure out, you know, how we were gonna get back to—well, I was gonna get back to my duty station, 'cause you know, if you don't show up on time, it's a bad thing. You know, (Labrado laughs) if you're in the military, you could be AWOL (Absent Without Leave). So anyway, everything worked out. But it was really funny because we were in the VW and it's raining and we're we trying to hitch a ride, you know, to get back to my fort. And in the end we looked back and it was funny. 00:25:28.265 --> 00:25:33.875 Did you carry any rituals or keepsakes, or did you do anything for good luck during your time in service? 00:25:33.875 --> 00:26:55.904 Well, one of the things, in my unit we had firing batteries, and we don't put all of our firing batteries all together—you know, I had to spread 'em out. A firing battery would be maybe five or six missiles in one site. And, then we'd have maybe another firing battery five or ten miles from our battalion operation center—and we'd have 'em spread out. And I would go to these firing batteries sometimes to inspect them and stop off to have a meal. And they would have what they call in Germany gasthauses. And they're kind of like inns where you go in and you could have food and have a bar. And they even had, usually, a little hotel. You could stay there overnight. And I would collect from each gasthaus a glass, because each of these gasthauses specialized in certain kinds of beer. And so I came back with about 30 of these glasses of beer where they had these really cool emblems—because the Germans were really big on beer—and each of the breweries had their own emblem. So I thought that was kind of cool. And it brought back, you know, fond memories of going and interacting with the Germans in their, like, inns. 00:26:55.904 --> 00:27:04.993 So now we're coming up to your transition out of service. Where did you go immediately after you separated from service? 00:27:04.993 --> 00:27:21.944 Well, I went back up to Santa Barbara, and I resumed my education, and I was working on a master's. And basically that's what I came back to. 00:27:21.944 --> 00:27:27.345 How were you received by your family and your community back in Santa Barbara? 00:27:27.345 --> 00:28:19.944 My family was great. It was really pleased to see me. They were happy to see me, of course. The community was sort of lukewarm, you know. Some people were kind of lukewarm, when they saw someone in uniform during, you know, the 1968 through '70, '71. And so they were kind of aloof, you know. The Germans on the other hand probably viewed us differently. They saw us as defending or at least preventing the Russians from invading. But in the states, a lot of people thought that the war was an unjust war and it was an unpopular war. And some of that got reflected, you know, on servicemen. 00:28:19.944 --> 00:28:22.595 Was that hard for you to take in? 00:28:22.595 --> 00:29:26.355 Well, initially when you're, like, in Europe and, you know, you get the impression that you're there to protect United States—in this case from an attack, but—and then you find a lot of the citizens really aren't supporting you. That, you know, they think you really are pursuing an unjust war. And so it's kind of awkward because on one hand you're thinking that, "Gosh, we're doing a good thing here." But then on another hand, a lot of the citizens really didn't respect the uniform or the military at that point. And this is only a small portion of the population, but they were very vocal, and a lot of them, of course, were college kids and especially males because, you know, they were the ones who were gonna get drafted. So they were vociferous and—you know. 00:29:26.355 --> 00:29:31.634 What was it like for you to adjust back to civilian life? 00:29:31.634 --> 00:30:18.275 Well, I think I had a smooth transition. Again, I went back to work on my master's and you know, was able to pick up where I left off. But I did notice that when I graduated from college, some of my friends went directly into their careers. And so one of my best friends, when I got out, he became a lawyer. He got his degree and everything. So there was a integral period of time there where a lot of my friends were actually further along in their careers because, you know, I had served in the military and, you know, they of course went into their particular careers. 00:30:18.275 --> 00:30:23.275 What do you wish more people understood about veterans? 00:30:23.275 --> 00:31:22.994 Well, I think that people should really recognize and respect veterans because—and especially veterans that have served in combat roles, because they really have given a lot. Their families had to move constantly and frequently. Their servicemember is gone from the family. And when they serve in a combat role, a lot of the servicemen come back with like post-traumatic stress or physical injuries or mental injuries, and these folks need to be taken care of because they've given so much and that should be acknowledged and they should be supported by, you know, the community in the U.S. 00:31:22.994 --> 00:31:33.474 Following up with the reflections, what message would you want to leave for future generations who may watch or hear this interview? 00:31:33.474 --> 00:35:13.425 Well, I think the first thing is that we, I was in a situation back in 1970, '71, where there was a real threat with Russia because the threat was one in which we could actually get in a nuclear war. And so there are like different stages of war—especially like in Europe—there's conventional war, which is what we would be involved in using, you know, normal kinds of warfare, like in Vietnam. And then there's also limited nuclear war where you would just contain the nuclear war within Western Europe or Eastern Europe. And then hopefully, you know, the politicians or the leaders of the countries would stop there and negotiate a peace. But then if you go into the next level, which is the level where you have and use intercontinental ballistic missiles, and that's Armageddon. I mean, that's when hundreds of missiles go back and forth. And so there's like these three levels, and we were in Europe as part of NATO primarily as a deterrent to make sure that we don't escalate into those levels. So right now, for instance, we have Russia invaded the Ukraine. So that's like a conventional war, which is—it's horrific, but you know, it's contained. But if we were part—if Ukraine was part of NATO, then you would have all the western countries in the US involved in a war with Russia. And at that point, you know, it can escalate. So the point is that deterrence has worked—at least up to this point deterrence, as far as the Russians invading the NATO countries. So I think in that respect, you know, I was proud to be part of that because this is a deterrent that needs to occur so that we don't get in a war with a country that has nukes because we don't want it to escalate or progress to an all out nuclear war. Like in my battalion for instance, we were a tactical unit, so we had to use anywhere from 2 kilotons to 20 kiloton warheads. But even a 20 kiloton warhead was devastating. For instance, in Nagasaki they had I think a 12 kiloton warhead used in that particular bombing, and 150,000 people died. So, but now if it becomes an intercontinental missile, some of those missiles have over 300 kilotons. So you can see that we are at the point now where we have to do everything we can to minimize conflict, 'cause you can never know when it escalates. So in that sense, I think that I was real comfortable with the fact that I was a part of deterring and hopefully preventing any kind of conflict to escalate, because, you know, the threat of nuclear war is horrific. 00:35:13.425 --> 00:35:22.275 If you were to reflect on the journey of your service, what themes or life lessons emerge? 00:35:22.275 --> 00:37:13.945 Well, I think the most important thing is that you learn is service. I think that—well, I grew up in an age where John F. Kennedy said, you know, it's not what you can do for your country—it's what—it's basically what you could do for your country. And that's the critical thing. And I think that, you know, that could be, you know, volunteering, you know, in the Peace Corps or volunteering in hospitals—or actually it is working in gainful employment. In my case service was kind of important because I grew up in that environment, because my dad was in the military. So I think that's important. The need to serve in, some capacity, your country. Because you know, you look back and you see all the benefits this country has—I know we have our issues, but compared to other countries, and I visited a number of countries, our country's great—I mean, it's worth defending. The other thing I learned a lot personally is how to handle people. You know, how to motivate them, how to get them to do what you wanna do. And these were important skills that I learned when I went into the private sector and started working. And like, you learn that, 'cause when you're dealing with like soldiers, just because you have the rank doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna do it to their utmost ability. You have to be able to motivate them to get the most maximum output from them so that you can get the job done. And you have to—you learn a lot about supervision. And these are the kinds of skills that I learned. 00:37:13.945 --> 00:37:20.945 Thank you again for sharing your story. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LabradoEd_BeyerJason_2025-11-17_access.xml LabradoEd_BeyerJason_2025-11-17_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Labrado, Ed. Interview November 17th, 2025. Description An account of the resource Edwin Joseph Labrado Jr. was a captain in the U.S. Army Signal Corps. He was deployed in Europe during the Vietnam War. Labrado was born and raised in Santa Barbara, where he graduated from UCSB and completed the Army's four-year ROTC program. After graduation, he was assigned to the Army Signal Corps and later deployed to Europe. In Europe, he served as a battalion signal officer for a Nike Hercules missile battalion that had nuclear warheads. Some of his other responsibilities included communications training, military funeral honors, and the inspection of firing batteries. In this oral history interview, Labrado reflected on the Cold War, the US anti-Vietnam War movement, and how Americans treat veterans after military service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-096 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ed Labrado Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ed Labrado Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army United States. Army—Officers United States. Army. Signal Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Cold War University of California, Santa Barbara Patton, George S. (George Smith), 1885-1945 United States. Army. Army, 3rd United States. Army. Armored Division, 6th United States. Army. Reserve Officers' Training Corps Reserve Officers’ Training Corps (United States) Camp Roberts (Calif.) M1 rifle World War, 1914-1918 Korean War, 1950-1953 M14 rifle M16 rifle Fort Gordon (Ga.) Fort Monmouth (N.J.) Cryptography Missiles Fort Ord (Calif.) Funeral rites and ceremonies Noncommissioned officers Post-traumatic stress disorder Warsaw Pact (1955-1991) North Atlantic Treaty Organization Bank of America, National Association Nike Hercules missile Nuclear weapons Ramstein Air Base (Germany) Kennedy, John F., 1917-1963—Assassination Cuban Missile Crisis, 1962 United States. Army—Deserters Nuclear warfare Deterrence (Strategy) Peace Corps (U.S.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Europe Santa Barbara (Calif.) Port Hueneme (Calif.) California Ventura (Calif.) Georgia New Jersey Monterey (Calif.) Oakland (Calif.) Russia (Federation) Soviet Union Germany (East) Germany (West) Korea Vietnam Isla Vista (Calif.) France Germany United States Ukraine Nagasaki (Japan) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/cc6b7562e6cb1a2fc4b6d2263de282d4.pdf 1944ab4324c68acefd81e75e82c531e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Labrado, Ed. Interview transcript, November 17, 2025. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ed Labrado Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ed Labrado License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LabradoEd_BeyerJason_2025-11-17_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Description An account of the resource Edwin Joseph Labrado Jr. was a captain in the U.S. Army Signal Corps. He was deployed in Europe during the Vietnam War. Labrado was born and raised in Santa Barbara, where he graduated from UCSB and completed the Army's four-year ROTC program. After graduation, he was assigned to the Army Signal Corps and later deployed to Europe. In Europe, he served as a battalion signal officer for a Nike Hercules missile battalion that had nuclear warheads. Some of his other responsibilities included communications training, military funeral honors, and the inspection of firing batteries. In this oral history interview, Labrado reflected on the Cold War, the US anti-Vietnam War movement, and how Americans treat veterans after military service. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army United States. Army—Officers United States. Army. Signal Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Cold War University of California, Santa Barbara Patton, George S. (George Smith), 1885-1945 United States. Army. Army, 3rd United States. Army. Armored Division, 6th United States. Army. Reserve Officers' Training Corps Reserve Officers’ Training Corps (United States) Camp Roberts (Calif.) M1 rifle World War, 1914-1918 Korean War, 1950-1953 M14 rifle M16 rifle Fort Gordon (Ga.) Fort Monmouth (N.J.) Cryptography Missiles Fort Ord (Calif.) Funeral rites and ceremonies Noncommissioned officers Post-traumatic stress disorder Warsaw Pact (1955-1991) North Atlantic Treaty Organization Bank of America, National Association Nike Hercules missile Nuclear weapons Ramstein Air Base (Germany) Kennedy, John F., 1917-1963—Assassination Cuban Missile Crisis, 1962 United States. Army—Deserters Nuclear warfare Deterrence (Strategy) Peace Corps (U.S.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Europe Santa Barbara (Calif.) Port Hueneme (Calif.) California Ventura (Calif.) Georgia New Jersey Monterey (Calif.) Oakland (Calif.) Russia (Federation) Soviet Union Germany (East) Germany (West) Korea Vietnam Isla Vista (Calif.) France Germany United States Ukraine Nagasaki (Japan) Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jan Michael Letigio Lacea OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaceaJan_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran;Hospital Corpsman;United States Navy;Operation Enduring Freedom—Philippines;California State University San Marcos OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Lacea, Jan Michael Letigio. Interview November 8th, 2024. SC027-072 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran ; Hospital Corpsman ; United States Navy ; Operation Enduring Freedom—Philippines ; California State University San Marcos Jan Michael Letigio Lacea Jason Beyer Moving image LaceaJan_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/018dba3b4aa97ac3f2e94e43a109d4de.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 60 Military Background The highest rank Lacea attained serving in the Navy was Petty Officer First Class HM1 (Hospital Corpsman). He served in the Philippines as part of Operation Enduring Freedom—Philippines. Navy ; Petty Officer First Class HM1 ; Hospital Corpsman ; Philippines ; Operation Enduring Freedom—Philippines 0 84 Childhood Lacea was born in Cebu City in the Philippines in 1991 and was raised in Springfield, Missouri since he was three months old. Cebu City, Philippines ; Springfield, Missouri 0 101 Family Affiliations with the Military Lacea’s father had mandatory Army ROTC in college in the Philippines. His twin older brothers were both in the military: one was a Marine, and the other was also a Navy corpsman. Army ROTC ; brothers ; Navy corpsman ; Philippines 0 132 Jobs Before Military Service Lacea worked various jobs in food service before enlisting in the military, including smoothies, snow cones, Chinese food, and sushi. Tropical Smoothie Cafe ; smoothies ; snow cones ; Chinese restaurant ; sushi chef 0 172 Choosing Military Enlistment and Military Branch Lacea describes how school, family, and his identity as an immigrant influenced his decision to enlist. He decided to join the Navy with his brother’s guidance because it was the best way to pursue a career in the medical field. school ; brothers ; dad ; immigrant ; Navy ; Military Occupational Specialty ; Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery ; medical field 0 282 Early Days of Service, Basic Training, and Education Lacea describes his experiences throughout training, including basic training, accession school, and the Field Medical Training Battalion. He also recalls some of his most vivid memories, like the IV labs in school and Marine Corps training at Camp Pendleton. basic training ; bootcamp ; accession training ; A School ; Great Lakes, Illinois ; Field Medical Training Battalion ; Camp Pendleton ; IV labs ; Marine Corps ; physical training ; Third Marine Division ; Okinawa, Japan 0 434 Memories of Instructors Lacea recalls being scared and stressed during bootcamp, but there were positive and funny experiences in hindsight. He says the instructors “mess with your head so that way they can try to prepare you for anything that you might face in the military.” His memories include the culminating event of Navy Bootcamp called Battle Stations, his impressions of his division chief’s accent, his experience as the Guide of his platoon, and his award for Platoon Motivator. instructors ; Louisiana ; Cajun accent ; Navy bootcamp ; Battle Stations ; Corps School ; Field Med ; Staff Sergeant Borge ; Guide ; Camp Pendleton ; Platoon Motivator 0 701 Weapons Training Lacea describes additional equipment training he received for weapons like the M4, M9 Beretta, .50 caliber machine gun, and Mk 19 grenade launcher. In order to receive the Fleet Marine Force pin, he needed these qualifications. Overall, his main qualification was in the medical field. M4 ; M9 Beretta ; Fleet Marine Force ; .50 caliber ; Mk 19 0 782 Military Promotions Lacea started off as an E3. He described his promotion to Petty Officer Third Class while in the Philippines, and how Filipinos like to help each other out in the Navy. He got promoted to E5 through evaluations. Finally, he was frocked to Petty Officer First Class while in Reserves, before leaving the service. Hospitalman E3 ; Philippines ; Petty Officer Third Class ; the Filipino Mafia ; Navy ; Petty Officer Second Class ; advancement test ; evaluations ; Petty Officer First Class ; Reserves 0 910 Difficulties Adapting to Military Lifestyle Lacea describes the high standards of the military as one of the most difficult yet rewarding aspects of military service. However, feelings of burnout motivated him to leave the service. This led to some feelings of anxiety and regret, as the transition back to civilian life included new expectations. high standards ; burnout ; anxiety ; regret 0 1023 Interactions with People During Stateside Service Lacea describes differing experiences while stationed in San Antonio, Texas ; California ; and Okinawa, Japan. Interactions with locals could depend on the political environment and social class of civilians. San Antonio, Texas ; uniforms ; phase of liberty ; California ; Okinawa, Japan 0 1174 Deployment for Operation Enduring Freedom—Philippines Lacea’s only deployment was for six months in Zamboanga, Philippines from 2012-13 for Operation Enduring Freedom—Philippines. He describes the conflict in the south of the Philippines and the U.S. military’s involvement in it, mostly advising the Philippines military. He was glad to serve in the Philippines, because he felt that he was giving back to his motherland. Zamboanga, Philippines ; six-month deployment ; Abu Sayyaf ; Moro Islamic Liberation Front ; Al-Qaeda ; advising ; rules of engagement 0 1330 Interactions with Local Peoples and Cultures in the Philippines Lacea is from Cebu City in the central part of the Philippines, but he speaks the same dialect of Bisaya as many locals in Zamboanga. So, despite the differences in religion and culture, he was able to communicate with locals. Zamboanga, Philippines ; Muslims ; religion ; hospitality ; Bisaya ; dialect 0 1430 Friendships and Comradery During Service Lacea describes the diversity of military branches and skills of the people he served with in the Philippines. He also describes highly stressful moments when he and other corpsmen would provide medical assistance after mass casualty events. Joint Special Operations Task Force Philippines ; Navy SEALs ; Delta Force ; the Air Force ; Air Force ; marine security element ; Recon Marines ; USMC Reconnaissance Battalions ; Headquarters Battalion Third Marine Division ; Truck Company ; Motor Team Marines ; night vision equipment ; opposing forces 0 1639 Keeping Contact with Family and Friends While Deployed Lacea recalls having internet access and using it to Skype and FaceTime his friends and family back home. Skype ; FaceTime ; internet ; friends ; family 0 1680 Recreation While Off Duty in the Philippines Lacea recalls his time spent working out, playing basketball, and learning Marine Corps martial arts. He also recalls his four-day R&amp ; R trip to visit his family in Cebu City and Bohol with three friends. exercise ; basketball ; Marine Corps Martial Arts Program ; Rest and Recuperation ; Cebu City ; Bohol 0 1846 Humorous Events While in the Philippines Lacea tells a funny story about the Marines in his platoon being smokers. Others were surprised to see him, the corpsman, passing out cigarettes to his platoon. smoking ; cigarettes ; Marlboro Reds ; corpsman 0 1930 End of Service and His Decision to Stay in California after Service Lacea met his wife while stationed at Miramar. He started wanting to settle down while keeping opportunities in the military. He decided to switch to the Reserves, but it was not what he expected. After nearly eight years serving in the military, he decided to leave the Reserves and stay in California where his wife’s family lives. Since he was surrounded by family when his service ended, he had support. Third Marine Division ; Miramar ; fourth tank battalion ; Reserves ; wife ; family ; California ; Missouri ; childcare ; family ; brother ; Camp Pendleton 0 2142 Relationships with Family, Readjusting to Civilian Life, and Enrollment at CSU San Marcos Lacea had plans to work at Scripps Health while continuing service in the Reserves and pursuing graduate school, but he was disillusioned with both jobs and left them. When he enrolled in the Master of Public Health program at Cal State San Marcos he initially felt out of place, anxious, and regretful. However, once he got involved with the veteran center on campus, he felt the support of a community of veterans struggling with the same issues. graduate school ; Reserves ; Scripps Health ; quitting ; anxiety ; stress ; enrollment ; CSU San Marcos ; veteran community ; Master of Public Health ; support 0 2384 Experience with the G.I. Bill Tuition assistance supported Lacea’s bachelor’s degree. Using the G.I. Bill, he was able to pay for two master’s degrees in public health and business administration. G.I. Bill ; tuition assistance ; bachelors ; master's in public health ; master's in business administration ; CSU San Marcos 0 2417 Continuing Friendships After Service Lacea admires that he can keep up with his friends on social media and see them when they are stationed at Camp Pendleton or come to visit. friendships ; social media ; Camp Pendleton ; visits ; nostalgia 0 2490 Experience with Veterans Organizations Lacea describes his experience with the Veteran Center at CSU San Marcos, including working for the Veterans to Energy Careers program for a semester. He is also part of the Telesforo Trinidad Committee, which was formed because there is a ship being built, the USS Telesforo Trinidad, named after a Filipino who received the Medal of Honor. CSU San Marcos ; vet center ; work-study program ; Veterans to Energy Careers ; Telesforo Trinidad Committee ; USS Telesforo Trinidad ; Medal of Honor ; Filipino 0 2560 How Military Service Impacted His Life Lacea shares how the military provided him social and material benefits. It helped him network, build friendships, and expose himself to different cultures and political views from across the country. It also helped him pursue higher education. education ; family ; G.I. Bill ; disability ; friendships ; networking ; culture ; politics ; Arkansas 0 2674 Life Lessons From Military Service Lacea admires that his service helped him become an adult, including how to complete his taxes. His experience also gave him positive role models. taxes ; TurboTax ; adulting ; parenting 0 2774 Message for Future Generations Lacea wants people to know that veterans are “regular people who were put into extraordinary circumstances.” He wants people to know that the military may not be for everyone. Veterans have very different experiences, and many veterans have not experienced combat. veterans ; perspectives ; experiences ; decisions ; gratitude 0 2871 Association with CSUSM and the North County San Diego Community Despite it being a backup choice, Lacea was happy with his experience at CSU San Marcos. He chose CSUSM because its Master of Public Health program had CEPH accreditation. CSU San Marcos ; North County San Diego ; community ; San Diego State University ; CEPH accreditation ; Council on Education for Public Health ; Master of Public Health 0 2935 Raising Awareness About Conflict in the South of the Philippines Lacea wants more people to know about Operation Enduring Freedom—Philippines. Many people died, notably during the Siege of Marawi in 2017. He says, “I just want people to be aware of what we did down there and the people that we helped.” Operation Enduring Freedom—Philippines ; Siege of Marawi ; Abu Sayyaf 0 3005 What More People Should Know About Veterans Lacea wants people to know that even though many veterans did not serve in wars, he thinks all veterans “still would've performed well.” He also shares more about how he volunteered for deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan. However, when he joined in 2011, there were fewer military deployments to those countries. He was disappointed by this but happy to be in the Philippines. Iraq ; Afghanistan ; brother ; corpsman ; Marines ; volunteer ; war 0 3093 Lessons Learned from Military Experience Lacea again recounts how mentors during his service taught him how to manage his personal finances and pushed him to pursue higher education. He describes his journey from military enlistment to bachelor’s to master’s. finances ; education ; career ; bachelor’s ; master’s ; Missouri State ; Third Marine Division ; mentors ; Miramar 0 Oral history Jan Michael Letigio Lacea served in the Navy for eight years. He was frocked Petty Officer First Class HM1 (Hospital Corpsman First Class) before he left the service. Lacea described his service in the Philippines for Operation Enduring Freedom, and he reflected on his own identity as a Filipino American immigrant. He also recounted his return to civilian life, attending graduate school at CSU San Marcos, the support he received from the CSUSM Veterans’ Center, and the life lessons he learned from military service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.525 --> 00:00:56.024 My name is Jason Beyer, and I am a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Jan Michael Letigio Lacea. Today's date is Friday, November 8th, 2024. The general location in which this interview is being conducted is in the Letigio home in Fallbrook, California. Me and the interviewee are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview are Marilyn Huerta, camera operator, Adel Bautista, Jason Beyer, the interviewer and the interviewee, Jan Michael Letigio Lacea. The purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your first, middle, and last name. 00:00:56.024 --> 00:01:00.125 My name is Jan Michael Letigio Lacea. 00:01:00.125 --> 00:01:02.664 Please state your branch of service. 00:01:02.664 --> 00:01:04.444 Navy. 00:01:04.444 --> 00:01:07.265 Please state the highest rank that you attained. 00:01:07.265 --> 00:01:12.575 I was frocked Petty Officer First Class HM1 (Hospital Corpsman) right before I got out of the Navy. 00:01:12.575 --> 00:01:17.075 And were you a part of any war or conflicts while you served? 00:01:17.075 --> 00:01:24.734 I served in the Philippines, part of Operation Enduring Freedom—Philippines (OEF-P). 00:01:24.734 --> 00:01:26.564 Where were you born? 00:01:26.564 --> 00:01:41.185 I was born in Cebu City in the Philippines in 1991. And shortly afterwards, when I was three months old, I moved to Springfield, Missouri, and that's where I grew up most of my life. 00:01:41.185 --> 00:01:45.894 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:45.894 --> 00:02:12.365 Yes. So my dad was technically affiliated with the military. He was in Army ROTC in college as part of a mandatory ROTC back in the Philippines—back in those days it was mandatory. And my brothers, my twin older brothers, were both in the military. One was a Marine—he just retired last year—and the other one was also a Navy corpsman. 00:02:12.365 --> 00:02:15.764 Did you hold any jobs before entering the service? 00:02:15.764 --> 00:02:31.925 Yes. So my first job was at Tropical Smoothie Cafe, a small smoothie joint. I started there when I was 15 years old. And I also worked at a snow cone place. And I also worked at a Chinese restaurant. And then right before I left for the Navy, I was a sushi chef. 00:02:31.925 --> 00:02:34.425 So what was it like being a sushi chef? 00:02:34.425 --> 00:02:52.044 Being a sushi chef was fun. I really like eating sushi, so that part was fun. What I didn't like was also I had to work pretty much every weekend, and every day I came home smelling like fish. 00:02:52.044 --> 00:02:55.455 When and why did you choose the military? 00:02:55.455 --> 00:03:32.925 So I chose to join the military for plenty of reasons. School was one. Obviously both of my brothers were in the military, so that was a big influence for me. But the biggest reason why I joined the military was because being an immigrant, coming to America, I saw all the great things that this country provided for my family, for my dad, the opportunity to work. And so I just felt like it was a good way to give back to the country that welcomed our family. 00:03:32.925 --> 00:03:35.694 Were you drafted or did you enlist? 00:03:35.694 --> 00:03:38.594 I enlisted. 00:03:38.594 --> 00:03:42.854 And which branch did you enter, and why did you choose that branch? 00:03:42.854 --> 00:04:42.694 So I chose the Navy and—I enlisted into the Navy because—so again, my brothers influence—my brothers were a big influence on why I joined the military. And my Marine brother wanted me to join the Marine Corps. My Navy brother wanted me to join the Navy. They both gave their pros and cons to each one. I really wanted to be a Marine at first, but my brother did tell me that there was no guarantee that I would get to pick the MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) or the job that I wanted to do. Whereas the Navy was a little bit more of a guarantee I would like, as long as I made a good ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) score and I told the recruiter what I wanted to do, if it was available, then I could do it. So ultimately how I decided was I wanted to see if I wanted to pursue a career in the medical field, and the Navy was the best choice, because unfortunately, the Marine Corps doesn't have a medical field. So being a Navy corpsman was the next best thing. 00:04:42.694 --> 00:04:49.314 For your early days of service, what type of training or schooling did you have? 00:04:49.314 --> 00:05:35.004 Sure. So everybody joins military. They have to attend a basic training or bootcamp as some people call it. So, I attended a bootcamp up at Great Lakes, Illinois, when I first left for the Navy in 2011 in March. And that was my first taste of the military. And then after bootcamp, I went to A School (accession training) that's kind of like our corpsman school where we learned our jobs. And yeah, I learned all the basic medical stuff there at A School. And then after that I went to Field Medical Training Battalion, which is pretty much where we learned the Marine side of being a corpsman and being up in the field and learning about weapons systems. And that was at Camp Pendleton. 00:05:35.004 --> 00:05:44.055 What is your most vivid memory, both best and worst parts of your time in training or in school? 00:05:44.055 --> 00:06:57.665 Let's see. I would say one of my most vivid memories in school was the IV labs. Learning to give IVs to patients. It was a bloody mess for everybody (laughs). So that was pretty vivid. I mean, I'm not really that scared of blood, but I had a lot of classmates that were, so I actually had like one classmate who actually passed out when (laughs) they saw blood. So that was a pretty vivid moment for me. And also, one of the big things I remember was in Field Medical Training Battalion, when I started learning all the Marine Corps side of things. I think that's when the military started being more fun for me, because that's really what I wanted to do. Like I said, initially I wanted to be a Marine—and you know, bootcamp and A School, it was kind of like more of the Navy side and like, oh, okay, this is cool. But once I started doing more of the quote unquote, like, the Marine stuff, that's when it was really fun working with weapons, doing fireman's carry, working out, PT'ing (physical training) every day. I think that was kind of where I was like, okay, this is where I want to be. 00:06:57.665 --> 00:07:01.225 What was your first assignment after basic training? 00:07:01.225 --> 00:07:14.545 Sure. So, after basic, I went to A School and then I went to Field Med. And then after Field Med, that's where we get assigned to our first unit in the fleet. And my first unit was Third Marine Division in Okinawa, Japan. 00:07:14.545 --> 00:07:20.665 Before we wrap up your training, do you recall your instructors that you had? What were they like? 00:07:20.665 --> 00:11:41.674 Yes. My bootcamp instructors, so (laughs), they're—it's funny, looking back at bootcamp. Everybody thinks it's a scary experience. When you're first into it, it's very stressful. But when you look back on it, there's a lot of funny stories that we have. One of my bootcamp instructors, he was this tall guy from Louisiana, and he had this Cajun accent, and a lot of people tell me that I can do really good impressions. So I (laughs) used to do an impression of him all the time, whenever it was a holiday routine on Sundays, whenever we kind of have a little bit of free time during bootcamp. And then towards the end, right before—so our culminating event in Navy Bootcamp is called Battle Stations, similar to the Marine Corps they have the Crucible. So right before Battle Stations, one of the instructors said, "Alright, I know one of you has a good impression of Chief, so who can do a good impression of Chief in the division." And sure enough, everybody in the division pointed back and they said, "Lacea he can (laughs) do a great impression of Chief." So I went up there—I'm not gonna do it right now (laughs), 'cause I don't know if he will watch this. But yeah, I did my impression and like even the instructors were busting out laughing. So that was funny. My Corps School instructors, honestly, I don't really remember too much about them. Again, like, they did a lot of messing around with us. But, you know, all in all, I think that's just all what the military is. You know, they mess with your head so that way they can try to prepare you for anything that you might face in the military. So, and then, and my Field Med instructors, I remember them pretty vividly. Again, they like to mess with us a lot. So in Field Med we had two or three corpsman instructors I think per company. And then we had one Marine instructor. And our Marine instructor, his name was Staff Sergeant Borge—I think he just retired as a Gunny (Gunnery Sergeant)—but he was a funny guy. He liked me because I was the smallest guy in the platoon. And, he actually picked me to be guide for our platoon. So Guide is the person who gets to carry the flag for the platoon, and it's kind of seen as the main leader and motivator of the platoon. And he picked me for Guide. And, unfortunately that didn't last too long, because I am the shortest guy in the platoon, the hikes for me in Camp Pendleton were very hard (laughs) because we had guys in the platoon probably the size of Jason (gestures toward interviewer) who were like six foot five, six foot eight-whatever, and their strides were like (laughs), you know, like 10 feet. And for me to make that same 10 feet, I'd have to pretty much sprint the entire hike all while carrying about like 80 pounds of gear. So (laughs), so pretty much the whole time Staff Sergeant Borge is like, Lacea, you better motivate the platoon. And I would run around the entire platoon all while going uphill (laughs). And, as you know (gestures toward interviewer), the hills in Pendleton are crazy. So, I'm running up this hill, running around the entire platoon trying to motivate them. And eventually I just could not keep up with the platoon anymore and I started to fall back. And Staff Sergeant Borge said, "If you fall back, Lacea, you're fired (laughs)." And unfortunately, I fell back. So I eventually got fired from being the Guide a couple weeks before graduating. But at the end, right before graduation, the platoons, they have like a platoon award that they call the Platoon Motivator, and pretty much the platoon puts in votes and they vote whoever was the biggest motivator for the platoon. And they still voted me as the platoon motivator. So I got recognized for that. And at the end of Field Med, Staff Sergeant Borge, he was like, you know, I don't really say this to a lot of students, but I was actually proud of you and seeing how you improved throughout training. So despite the fact I got fired, he (laughs) still liked me. So (laughs)— 00:11:41.674 --> 00:11:51.284 Did you qualify for equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radios, weapons? If yes, what was that training like? 00:11:51.284 --> 00:13:02.644 Sure. So in Field Med we're all taught on how to shoot the M4—or it's pretty much the carbine style of the M16—so pretty much just taught the basics of it, how to disassemble and assemble an M4. Also, I got to shoot an M9 Beretta—when I was deployed that was my main sidearm. And, let's see, what else? Oh, and when I was with the Marines most corpsmen—you've probably seen corpsmen in their uniforms they have like a, they call it the FMF pin (Fleet Marine Force), it's like an eagle, globe, and anchor from the Marine Corps, and then it's got like these like wings and stuff. So in order to get that FMF pin, you have to do different qualifications. One of the main ones is weapons qualifications. So we were actually taught how to disassemble and assemble a fifty cal (.50 caliber), which is a big machine gun. We also got to play around with the Mark 19 (Mk 19 grenade launcher). So we were kind of given like a basic instruction on those weapon systems. But overall, my main qualification was just the medical field, medical stuff. So being a corpsman. 00:13:02.644 --> 00:13:06.375 Did you receive any promotions? And if so, could you tell me about that? 00:13:06.375 --> 00:15:10.004 Sure. So when I first joined the Navy, I started off as an E3. And for the Navy our rank is also our job, so my rank was Hospitalman E3. And then while I was deployed in the Philippines, I was actually meritoriously promoted to Petty Officer Third Class while I was there. So, pretty much, the Navy, as some people know, there's a thing called the Filipino Mafia. And so a lot of Filipinos like to help each other out in the Navy. And so a lot of people said that I've got the meritorious promotion because of the Filipino Mafia. So I don't know if that's true or not, but there were a lot of Filipinos in the Navy and I had a lot of Filipino mentors that helped me out. So, yeah, according to some people, that might've been why I got meritoriously promoted to Petty Officer Third Class. And then I got promoted to Petty Officer Second Class pretty much through the regular way, quote unquote. So in the Navy, when you get promoted, pretty much, they take into account your evals and they also take into account a test score—you have to take an advancement test once or twice a year, I don't remember. But, so I took it, I got promoted to E5 the regular way, through the test. And then my last promotion was to Petty Officer First Class. Technically I didn't attain the pay grade. It's kind of confusing how it works in the Navy, but like when you initially pick up rank you get frocked, so you get to put on the rank but you don't get paid as that rank. So I picked up First Class from the Reserves—I was in the Reserves at that time—and I picked up First Class, and I put on First Class, but I got out of the Reserves before I actually attained that pay grade. So, that's why I was only frocked to Petty Officer First Class. 00:15:10.004 --> 00:15:16.715 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:15:16.715 --> 00:15:59.894 Honestly, the hardest part—which ironically also was why I liked it too—was just like the high standards, maintaining that and, you know, like just getting the mission done at all costs. And honestly, that kind of translated to why I had a hard time transitioning out of the military, because I was very focused on making sure I get the job done and making sure it gets done right. And so that was a challenge for me to adjust to—and it was also a challenge for me to adjust out of, too. 00:15:59.894 --> 00:16:09.118 And why do you think that that was the hardest? Why do you think it was the hardest part of the lifestyle to adapt to? 00:16:09.118 --> 00:17:03.705 Yeah, honestly, I mean, you know, like I said, so I was in the Navy for about seven and a half years and making it all the way to Petty Officer First Class for—especially as a corpsman—that's a pretty fast pace of picking up rank. And I really was striving to be the best I could be in the military. And sometimes that could lead to burnout. And so, honestly, like, I eventually got burnt out of being in military, and that's why I ultimately decided to get out instead of staying in the full twenty (years) and retiring. And so yeah, it was hard for me 'cause, you know, sometimes I would get anxiety of like, am I good enough? Will I ever be good enough for everybody? Like, everyone's like, oh, you know, you had such a successful career in the Navy, why did you get out? And so, you know, I had a lot of thoughts of regret and those type of things. 00:17:03.705 --> 00:17:10.875 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:17:10.875 --> 00:17:13.315 Um, like, civilians or— 00:17:13.315 --> 00:17:20.605 Civilians or other people from the military at different bases you might have been stationed at? 00:17:20.605 --> 00:19:34.775 Sure. So, definitely 'cause—so after bootcamp I was stationed in San Antonio, Texas, and it's a very military friendly town. So wherever we went, like, people offered to, you know, get us free food, free drinks, wherever. So being in San Antonio was great. But it was kind of funny because whenever we're in Corps School, our first couple weeks while we're there, we're still in our first phase of liberty, as they call it. So you can only go off base but you have to be in uniform. We would be in our service uniforms whenever we went out in town. And when we went there, our school was still pretty new, so folks in San Antonio weren't used to seeing Navy guys, and especially at the time—we also got a new service uniform too, which we called the Peanut Butters, which was a khaki top and black bottoms—so nobody was really used to seeing anybody in those uniforms. So we would go out in San Antonio and this one guy—old Navy vet from like, you know, the Cold War era—and he came up to us and he was like, "Hey, are you guys Boy Scouts?" (Lacea laughs.) And we're like, no, we're in the military. And he was like, "No, what branch are you in?" Like, we're in the Navy. And he's like, "What? There's Navy guys here in San Antonio? You're wearing uniforms I don't even recognize." Like, yeah, this is a new uniform. So, yeah, it was great being in San Antonio. And then here in California, you know, there's a lot of Marines out here and California is a little bit more, as they say, like a liberal state. So, I don't know—I would just say like, we didn't get as much as the same treatment as we got in San Antonio. But I still like it out here in California. And then, I was stationed overseas in Okinawa when I was with Third Marine Division. And interacting with the local Japanese community, you know, there's a lot of folks in Okinawa who didn't really like us being there. But on the flip side, there were a lot of locals who did like us being there, especially the ones who owned businesses. And so it was a interesting dynamic. But for the most part, the Japanese people were really friendly and polite. 00:19:34.775 --> 00:19:44.085 So now we're gonna move on to your wartime and conflict service. What wartime conflicts were you a part of? 00:19:44.085 --> 00:19:55.005 Sure. So, pretty much my only deployment when I was in the military was in the Philippines, part of Operation Enduring Freedom in the Philippines. 00:19:55.005 --> 00:19:57.483 When and where did you serve in the Philippines? 00:19:57.483 --> 00:20:20.714 Sure. So I was deployed to Zamboanga, Philippines, in the Southwest part of the Philippines. And that was in, I believe, September, or that was in October, 2012 to April, 2013. 00:20:20.714 --> 00:20:25.174 And what were your recollections of that experience? 00:20:25.174 --> 00:22:10.414 Man. Like I said, it was my only big six month deployment, but it was some of the best memories I have of being in the military. Well, for one, being Filipino and being deployed to the Philippines, that was really rewarding for me because I felt like even though I was serving in the American military, I was able to give back to my actual motherland. So not a lot of people are familiar with the conflict down there in the Philippines, but down south there's a big Muslim population in the Philippines. And with that, there were some radical groups there. The main big one was called the Abu Sayyaf, and there's also another big group called the Moro Islamic Liberation Front down in the south, or M.I.L.F. for short. And so those were the main belligerents that were down there, when we were deployed. And, pretty much, they've been causing issues for the government there in the Philippines for a very long time. And especially after September 11th, I believe Abu Sayyaf, they kind of aligned themselves with Al-Qaeda, so that's why America kind of felt like they needed to have a contingency there. And they deployed a lot of their military there mainly for advising. So that's what our main mission there was for was for advising the Filipino military. And so we weren't really like the main combatants, but if we were ever attacked our RRE, or our rules of engagement, were self-defense. So there were I think maybe a couple of times they were skirmishes, but I was not involved in one, though. 00:22:10.414 --> 00:22:21.765 So based off your time in the Philippines, what were your interactions like with the local cultures and the people you encountered during deployment? 00:22:21.765 --> 00:23:50.243 Yeah, so, like I said, I was really proud of being deployed in Zamboanga in the Philippines. But it was a part of the Philippines that I had never been before. So I'm from Cebu, in the central part of the Philippines, and I would visit back there every two years, so I was mainly familiar with that part of the Philippines. But down south, like I said, is a very majority Muslim population. So going there it almost felt like it was a Philippines that I didn't recognize. There's, like I said, a lot of Muslims down there. You would see people in like Muslim garb. Some females even wore a hijab. And so yeah, it was a part of the Philippines I wasn't used to, but everybody there, I mean, they still had that same Filipino hospitality. Everybody was super nice. They spoke the dialect that I speak, which is Bisaya. So I was actually kind of a translator when I was down there—not in an official capacity, but more of like, whenever my Marines went out in town or like, you know, they wanted some food, I would help them out with that (laughs). So, yeah, I was able to mingle with the locals that way. And it was cool because a lot of the Filipinos, they didn't expect somebody—well, they saw like a lot of Filipino American military, but for me especially, because we spoke the same dialect, that was a little bit more rare for them to see. So yeah, that was really interesting. 00:23:50.243 --> 00:23:57.615 What kind of friendships and comradery did you form while serving and with whom, while you were in the Philippines? 00:23:57.615 --> 00:23:59.285 Sorry, can you repeat the question one more time? 00:23:59.285 --> 00:24:05.904 What kinds of friendships and comradery did you form while serving and with whom? 00:24:05.904 --> 00:27:19.365 Man. I had really close friendships when I was deployed. So pretty much when we deployed, it was part of a rotation of—they call it marine security element. So, the main unit that's there in the Philippines was called, JSOTFP, Joint Special Operations Task Force Philippines. So, as the name implies—special operations—a majority of the units that were there and that most people we're supporting were special operations units. So you had the SEALs (Navy SEALs), Delta (Delta Force), the Air Force, PJs—the para rescue guys, I forgot what they're called in the Air Force. But yeah, you had pretty much all sorts of special operations guys there in the Philippines. And then you had all the support people, and we were part of the marine security element. Historically they had Recon Marines (USMC Reconnaissance Battalions) that would deploy there, but then they said, I don't really think we need Recon guys. We could just get a bunch of just regular Marines and fulfill those security roles. So, what they did was they augmented—I was part of Headquarters Battalion Third Marine Division—they augmented Marines from all across the battalion to be part of the mission. So we had guys from Truck Company who were Motor Team Marines, the guys who drove the big seven-ton trucks. We had Comm Marines (Communications) that were there. Even had like a couple admin guys, so it was almost like bakers and candlestick makers, and they just put us all into a platoon. And then it was me and another corpsman who were kind of like the medical. And so whenever they formed the platoon, we all met up and yeah, it was almost like a ragtag group of group of kids. But I mean, like, we immediately bonded, definitely on our first field op (operation). And when we were preparing for deployment, we learned a lot of like, security stuff like how to—like defensive driving and like how to conduct a convoy and all that stuff. So that was really fun. And then when we deployed—you know, like I said, even though we were in an advising role, the Filipinos, you know, they were very active in fighting the conflict there. So it was pretty frequent that there would be mass casualty events. So, a lot of times—'cause the Filipino military guys, what they would do were a lot of night operations. So a lot of times they would go out there—sometimes without even like any NVGs (night vision goggles) or night vision equipment, and there would be a lot of casualties. So of course, me and the other corpsmen, our main job was to assist in those casualties. So, we would go out there, they would evacuate a lot of the Filipino soldiers and even some of the OpFor, the opposing forces, that would get wounded, and they would evacuate them to the local military hospital there and we would assist with anything medical. So yeah, there was a lot of stressful times, a lot of high stress stuff going on. But through all of those difficult times, we bonded a lot. 00:27:19.365 --> 00:27:26.164 How did you stay in touch with family and friends? Did you choose to keep communication with them while deployed? 00:27:26.164 --> 00:28:00.634 Yeah, so luckily for me, I deployed in the 21st century, so we had Zoom—actually I don't think we had Zoom, we had Skype—so I was able to Skype my friends and family back home. I think FaceTime was still a thing back then, so yeah, I was still able to communicate that way. We had the internet in our little fob, if you wanna call it that. So overall, where we were staying at, it wasn't too bad. I wouldn't say it was like resort living, but it was (laughs)—it wasn't too bad. 00:28:00.634 --> 00:28:05.505 What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty while in the Philippines? 00:28:05.505 --> 00:30:46.815 Sure. So, down in Zamboanga, we weren't really allowed to go off base unless it was for—obviously for like official duties. So unfortunately for some of the Marines who wanted to go out and party (laughs) in Zamboanga, unfortunately they couldn't do that. So what we did mostly for recreation was workout a lot. So we had the gym, that was there on our little fob, and yeah, we just worked out a lot. I probably worked out pretty much every day, gained a lot of muscle (laughs). And then we also had like a basketball court, so we played basketball. We had one of our—one of our Marines in our platoon was a MCMAP instructor (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program), so he got me to gray belt. So that was cool. So, learned MCMAP, which is Marine Corps martial arts, and, I learned to hip toss (motions arms and laughs). So that was fun. What else did we do? Oh! So because the deployment was a joint deployment, so it was run by the Army. So how the Army likes to do deployments is if it's, I think, a six-month deployment, then you actually rate four days R&R (Rest and Recuperation). So, it was actually kind of nice. Mid-deployment, I got four days R&R, and I actually got to go visit my family in Cebu. So how they did R&R was you had to go with three other buddies whenever you do that. So most of the other Marines wanted to go to some of the more popular places in the Philippines, like Manila or Boracay, which is, you know, kind of like this resort area in the Philippines. And everybody was going there. And I was like, no, no, no. I was trying to convince my three other Liberty buddies. I'm like, let's go to Cebu. And they're like, where is that doc? I don't even know where that's at. And I'm like, no, it's in the middle of the Philippines. Like, it's a little lesser known but that's even better because then there's less tourists. And they're like, all right, doc, we'll go there. And yeah, they had a time of their life. And so yeah, we went to Cebu—they got to meet my family there, my cousins. And then we also got to take a ferry to Bohol, which is a nearby island, and that's where my dad's side of the family's from. And so they got to meet my dad's side of the family and kind of see the more rural part of Bohol in the Philippines. And yeah, it was definitely a good experience for them to see them experience that. Yeah, I don't know, it's just—it's kind of, I don't even know what the word is—but it's just kind of crazy, like seeing these two different worlds that I never thought would cross together—my military life and my family life, and like my family meeting my military friends. So that was really interesting to see. 00:30:46.815 --> 00:30:55.035 Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events while you were in the Philippines? 00:30:55.035 --> 00:32:10.605 Yes. Uh, I don't know how (laughs)—how inappropriate can we be with this? (Laughs.) I mean, I can—I'll keep it PG if you want me to, so—(nods, laughs, gives a thumbs up to interviewer.) Yeah, keep it PG. Okay, cool. Yeah there was a lot of humorous things. Well, for one, when we first deployed—so a lot of my Marines in the platoon are smokers. So you know it's ironic that the Corpsman (laughs) was the one who supplied them with cigarettes. But, like a lot of the Marines they have a certain—they like Marlboro Reds. And so they forgot to pack it with them–which, I don't know why they did that—but I was like, don't worry, Doc's got you. And I brought like three big cartons of Marlboro Reds. And then I was like, here you go. And then somebody else on the base was like, Is that the Corpsman passing out cigarettes? And I was like, Hey man, you know, I'm just trying to keep morale up. Like, yeah, my Marines smoke, that's okay. We're deployed but (laughs) we'll work on tobacco cessation when we get back to Garrison. So yeah, that was pretty funny. Man, yeah, there's a lot of fun times, but I don't know if I could share it for this (laughs). 00:32:10.605 --> 00:32:23.095 So let's talk about your end of service. Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:32:23.095 --> 00:34:04.825 Sure. So I'll backtrack a little bit. So, after I was deployed, I went back to Third Marine Division and I finished that tour in 2014. And then after that, I got stationed at Miramar at the clinic on base there. And then after that duty I met my wife, and that's when I decided I didn't want to move around anymore. I think I wanted to settle, but I still wanted to keep my foot in the door of the military. So that's when I switched over to the Reserves. So when I was in the Reserves, I served with a fourth tank battalion, and I was only there for a short while. And pretty much I just—I wanted to, like I said, I wanted to join the Reserves because I wanted to still, you know, keep my foot in the door with the military. But honestly, the Reserves was just not what I pictured the military being. I mean, no offense to the Reserves, I respect everybody in the Reserves, but it was just, it was not for me. I think if I wanted to be in the military, I probably would've just stayed active duty. So, pretty much, since I was still within my initial eight-year contract, my career counselor pretty much said like, I did have the option to drop to IRR (Individual Ready Reserve) or inactive Reserves and get out if I wanted to. And so I opted to do that. And so I decided—like I said, I got frocked to HM1 Petty Officer First Class. And shortly afterwards—like, I think maybe not even like two weeks after that—that's when I got out of the Reserves, and then that's when I decided to just stay here in California. 00:34:04.825 --> 00:34:14.000 Um, why did you decide to not return home, or where, like, where did you go? California? And then what played a role in that decision? 00:34:14.000 --> 00:35:08.465 Yeah, so I decided to stay in California because, you know, I met my wife and she's from here, and all of her family is here. And, you know, like I said, I mean, I grew up in Missouri—and nothing wrong with Missouri—but I just, that was also one of the reasons why I joined the military too, was to get outta Missouri. So, I just like the vibes here in California. It's, the weather is, you can't beat it. Yes, it's very expensive here, but luckily I've been blessed to have a job where I'm able to afford to live here. So as long as me and my family can afford to stay out here then we'll stay out here. And, like I said, since my wife's family is all here and I have kids of my own now, all the extended family, they offer their help to raise the kids and watch the kids. So instead of having to pay for daycare, we have family. So that's definitely a big reason why we stay out here. 00:35:08.465 --> 00:35:17.175 On the day when it came time for you to end your service, how were you received by your family in the community that you returned to? 00:35:17.175 --> 00:35:42.405 Yeah, so, when I got out of the military, I mean, I was already, you know, like I said, I was surrounded by my wife's family, who was here. My brother, he was actually stationed at Pendleton at the time, so my brother was here, and yeah, I mean, it was pretty much the same. Everybody was already here in California, so yeah, not too much change really. 00:35:42.405 --> 00:35:47.614 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work or go back to school? 00:35:47.614 --> 00:39:44.875 Yeah, so adjusting back to civilian life was actually really tough for me. Like I said, being in the military, that kind of made me have a higher standard for myself. And so when I initially got out of active duty I had a whole plan ahead of me. I was gonna go to graduate school—actually while I was active duty, I finished my bachelor's using tuition assistance. And so my plan was I wanted to go to graduate school. And so that's why I got out of active duty. And while I was gonna go to graduate school, I was gonna be in the Reserves. And then while I was in the Reserves, I was also gonna work out of town. I had a job lined up with Scripps (Scripps Health, a major healthcare system in San Diego County). And so I worked at Scripps for only about two months, and I just couldn't handle it. I think the biggest—the toughest thing for me was because, I don't know, I just felt like in the military I had almost like a sense of purpose. Like I put the uniform on and I was proud to do the work that I was doing. And no offense to Scripps, you know, I did the best job that I could, but I just felt like the job wasn't really rewarding at the end of the day. And, I almost felt like I was just another number when I was working there at Scripps. Nobody really paid attention to me or knew who I was or anything like that. And so, yeah, I ended up quitting that job. And, you know, it was, it was a little bit tough on me and my wife 'cause, you know, that was some income that was lost because of that. But, I decided to shift gears and I was gonna focus on the Reserves and do graduate school. But like I said, eventually, I didn't even like the Reserves either, so I ended up quitting that as well. And so two of my three things that I had planned after I got outta active duty fell through, and I almost felt like, you know, I was a failure. And so, that was really tough for me to deal with. I had a lot of anxiety and stress about that, and guilt. And honestly, I didn't really feel better about myself until I started graduate school at Cal State San Marcos. When I got there and started doing the whole enrollment process and I got familiar with the veteran community at Cal State—and seeing how like, great the veteran community was at Cal State, that kind of actually helped me with my transition. Even when I started graduate school, I felt like I was out of place and felt like I had like imposter syndrome. Like most of my classmates when I was going for my MPH (Master of Public Health), they were coming straight out of undergrad. A lot of them were like—well, to me they were like kids. I was like in my late twenties about to be thirty, and they were like in their early twenties, and so they were in a different stage of life from me. And like you know, I was already married and trying to start a family and stuff. So yeah, I had big imposter syndrome when I was in graduate school. But when I met with the veterans at Cal State, like meeting people like you Jason (gestures toward interviewer) and all the people at the vet center, I'd come to find that I wasn't alone. Like everybody else was going through the same struggles that I was going through when I got out of the military. For some people it was even tougher for them. Like I know some people they did their full 20, they retired outta the military, and then they're going to get their bachelor's and literally their classmates could be their kids. And so they must have felt really outta place. And so, yeah, I think just getting to bond with other veterans and realizing we were all in the same boat, that helped me realize that, yeah, I wasn't alone. 00:39:44.875 --> 00:39:47.275 Did the GI bill affect you at all? 00:39:47.275 --> 00:40:17.105 Yes. So like I said, I used mainly tuition assistance to finish my undergrad while I was active duty. But when I got out, I mainly used the GI bill for my graduate school. So, luckily that helped a lot. I was able to pay for my first graduate degree and my master's in public health. And since the GI bill I had a lot left over, that's when I decided to use it for my master's in business administration. And I also pursued that at Cal State as well. 00:40:17.105 --> 00:40:22.364 Did you continue any friendships after service? If so, for how long? 00:40:22.364 --> 00:41:30.405 Yes, definitely. I've kept in touch with almost everybody that I met in the military. I mean, I met a lot of people, but thanks to social media, I was able to keep up with most people. A lot of my friends are still in the military. I actually have one friend that's stationed out at Camp Pendleton and another friend that's about to get stationed there. And so, I still keep tabs on everybody and message them, and it's great to see them, especially even like over the years when I do see them—like a couple of my friends, they came over to the house about a month ago, and it was almost like we picked up right where we left off, and even though we hadn't seen each other for almost 13 or 14 years. So yeah, you know, just reminiscing on all the good times and the nostalgia that we had. Yeah, the friendships that I had in the military—like to this day, like, I don't know, it's definitely friendships that I almost feel like you can't really get anywhere else. 00:41:30.405 --> 00:41:33.585 Did you join any veterans organizations? 00:41:33.585 --> 00:42:40.000 Yes, so, like I said, Cal State, they had a really great veteran community there. So I got really involved at the vet center, especially my last semester at Cal State. That's when I learned about the work-study program. And so I actually worked for a semester at Cal State, and I worked with VTEC (Veterans to Energy Careers) and helped other veterans mainly with their professional development and writing resumes and stuff like that. So that was great to work with them. And right now, currently, I don't know if it's really a veteran organization, but I'm part of the Telesforo Trinidad Committee. So what that is is there's actually a ship called the USS Telesforo Trinidad that's currently—I think it's still being built—but it's the first naval ship that's gonna be named after a Filipino. So, Telesforo Trinidad was actually the first—and I believe only—Medal of Honor recipient that was Filipino. 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:54.000 So now we're coming up on reflections. How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:42:54.000 --> 00:44:34.000 Well, I would say joining the military was probably the best decision I ever made. I mean, for one, like I said, the GI bill was able to cover graduate school for me, and that led me to get the job that I'm at now, and it's able to provide for my family. So, the military was able to help out with that. Also, I am a disabled veteran, and so all the benefits that come with that has also been able to help out a lot with my family as well. Um, let's see—and like I said, all the connections and the friendships that I made through the military, that has been super valuable for me. Not only for networking, but just maintaining those friendships and always having a good support system. Like I said, I'm able to call my friends all over the country if I ever need anything. Like, if I fly to Arkansas, I have a friend out there. If I ever go to the east coast, I have a friend out there. So, having such a diverse network of people from the military like that, that's one of the great things about the military is, just, it's a melting pot of different people, different cultures, different walks of life, different beliefs, backgrounds. Like, I have friends from all over the country, and they really opened my perspective on a lot of things, like my political views, my personal views, my personal beliefs and everything. And I think I wouldn't have gotten that if I didn't join the military. 00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:38.934 So, what are some of the life lessons you learned from your military service? 00:44:38.934 --> 00:46:14.054 Oh, man. I've learned a lot of life lessons from the military. Um, let's see—well, for one, the military taught me how to do my taxes (laughs). So, I mean, you know, a lot of kids like, they just kind of wing it and figure it out. But luckily I had a petty officer who was kind of a leader and he was like, Hey, this is how you do TurboTax, and this is how you do this. And I was a 19-year-old kid, and I didn't even know taxes was a thing. My parents always just kind of took care of that. And so, when the end of the year came and they were like, Hey, all the sailors, did you guys do your taxes? And I was like, Oh, that's a thing? I dunno what that is. So luckily I had a mentor that kind of guided me through that. So, life lessons, a lot of pretty much how to be an adult. I got that from the military, which I feel like not a lot of people get that. They'd have to kind of find it on their own. So the military helped me grow up and it helped me mature. Honestly, the military even helped me become a good dad, a good father. Like a lot of my friends, they got married, they had kids, and I kind of saw how they raised their kids and how they had their relationships while they were in the military. And so that kind of shaped how I was gonna be as a father. So, let's see—what other life lessons? That's pretty much the main ones I can think of. 00:46:14.054 --> 00:46:22.034 What message would you like to leave future generations who will view or hear this interview? 00:46:22.034 --> 00:47:51.675 Pretty much, you know, a lot of people have different perspectives of what the military is like and what that is. Growing up, like a lot of people thought the military is you're going to just, like, it's just a job where you just go and you kill people or something like that. Or like, you go out and you be a hero. But the military is just like, it had a lot of different experiences. A lot of people ask me like, is joining the military a good decision? And honestly, it's ultimately up to you—like, what your goals are, what you wanna do with your life. I wouldn't say the military is a good or bad decision. It really just depends on what you wanna do. So for me it was a good decision. And I just want everybody to know, whenever people come and thank me for my service—you know, some people they respond with "you're welcome." I don't really like saying "you're welcome." I just like saying thank you for your support, because, you know, I'm just a person, just like everybody else is and I just got experiences that some other people haven't experienced before. So, yeah I guess I just want people to know that people in the military, veterans, were just regular people who were put into extraordinary circumstances sometimes. 00:47:51.675 --> 00:47:59.565 How did you become associated with the CSUSM campus and the North San Diego County community? 00:47:59.565 --> 00:48:55.474 Sure. Pretty much I got affiliated with Cal State because I was looking for grad schools. Actually my initial—I wanted to go to San Diego State, but that didn't quite work out (laughs), so Cal State was actually my backup, but it was a great decision. I don't regret it at all. Cal State was a great school, and that's why I went there twice, for both of my graduate programs. But I ultimately picked Cal State because of their MPH program. They had a CEPF accreditation (Council on Education for Public Health). I forget what CEPF stands for, but at the time I was pondering the idea of going back into the military as an officer. And so the program accreditations are really important, whenever you try to put in your officer packages. So, CEPH accreditation for an MPH degree was important. So that's why I pursued a degree at Cal State. 00:48:55.474 --> 00:49:13.894 So we're coming up on the conclusions. I'd like to first thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never had? 00:49:13.894 --> 00:50:05.375 Lemme see. Well, I think like the main thing I wanted to share was the experiences I had with my deployment. Like I said, it's a lesser known theater that not a lot of people know about—the conflict down in the Philippines. And back in I think 2017 or 2018, there was a big siege in a town called Marawi where, pretty much, the Abu Sayyaf had taken over this entire city, and a lot of people died. And you know, the conflict down there in the south part of the Philippines, like I said, not a lot of people know about it, but a lot of people have died. And so I just want people to be aware of what we did down there and the people that we helped. 00:50:05.375 --> 00:50:10.224 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:50:10.224 --> 00:51:33.005 Pretty much, kind of what I said before, you know, veterans are just normal people who just got put into extraordinary circumstances. I mean, I know I didn't get to deploy to Iraq and Afghanistan—my brother did. My corpsman brother. He was with the Marines—or as a corpsman he was with the Marines, with the infantry. And that's what I initially wanted to do. I wanted to go over there. But unfortunately the time that I joined was in 2011, so the wars at both of those places in Iraq and Afghanistan were starting to die down. Literally right when I checked into third Marine division, the last rotation to Afghanistan from our unit had stopped. That was the—so I was asking, I was volunteering like, Hey, can I please go to Afghanistan? That's why I joined the military. I wanted to go over there, and as the Marines would say, "get some," but that didn't quite work out. But when they said that there was a deployment to the Philippines, I was like, okay, well, that's the next best thing. So, yeah, I just want people to know that veterans, even though we didn't, like, I would say a large majority of us didn't even serve in a war or in combat, but we all did our part. And, like, if even if we were put into that situation, I think we all still would've performed well. So yeah. 00:51:33.005 --> 00:51:40.675 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:51:40.675 --> 00:54:12.385 Lessons learned. Like I said, I learned how to be an adult in the military. So, let's see, what else? I learned how to be fiscally responsible. Let's see. Hmm. Oh, and I also—being in the military, I learned the importance of education. I had a lot of mentors in the military, and some of them were officers. So they went to school and they told me their pathway to success, if you will. And at the time when I joined the military I did a semester at Missouri State and I just felt like college isn't for me. I'm just gonna join the military, make a career out of it. And then like, when I was active duty, when I was with the Third Marine Division, I mean, we were very busy with operations and stuff, and people would mention going to school, and I'm like, I don't even know how you guys have time to go to school. And so I didn't even think about going to school, but when I got stationed at Miramar, it was considered a shore duty. So it was a little less paced for the operations side. So everybody kept saying, Hey, while you're at Miramar, you should go to school. And then I had an HM1 who was kind of like my mentor, and he went and did all of his classes and he was like, "Lacea, you need to go to school too." And I was like, "All right, all right, fine, I'll do it. I'll see how it goes." And I was I think twenty-two, twenty-three at the time, and I felt like going back to school, even though I was a good student in high school, I thought I was gonna have a hard time going back to school and learning again. So I was really nervous, and when I did my first college class, I was like, Wow, this wasn't that bad. And so I started like packing on the classes and, like I said, at the time I was still thinking about the Navy as a career, so I was just doing some classes here and there, just to kind of like build my time. I could even put those classes on my eval to make it like an eval bullet. But then I eventually saw like, oh shoot, I'm stacking more and more classes. I could actually finish my bachelor's. And so, once I finished my bachelor's, then yeah, it was just up and up from there. I was like, okay, next thing is my master's. So, yeah, the military definitely taught me the importance of education, for sure. 00:54:12.385 --> 00:54:13.844 Thank you for your time today. 00:54:13.844 --> 00:54:14.344 Cool. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaceaJan_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml LaceaJan_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lacea, Jan Michael Letigio. Interview November 8th, 2024. Description An account of the resource Jan Michael Letigio Lacea served in the Navy for eight years. He was frocked Petty Officer First Class HM1 (Hospital Corpsman First Class) before he left the service. Lacea described his service in the Philippines for Operation Enduring Freedom, and he reflected on his own identity as a Filipino American immigrant. He also recounted his return to civilian life, attending graduate school at CSU San Marcos, the support he received from the CSUSM Veterans’ Center, and the life lessons he learned from military service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-072 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/67921431bd6e9ca8ce1ba1d3c044d068.pdf 7cbc407be4bff4412696fcbf4fb57a8f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lacea, Jan Michael Letigio. Interview transcript, November 8, 2024. Description An account of the resource Jan Michael Letigio Lacea served in the Navy for eight years. He was frocked Petty Officer First Class HM1 (Hospital Corpsman First Class) before he left the service. Lacea described his service in the Philippines for Operation Enduring Freedom, and he reflected on his own identity as a Filipino American immigrant. He also recounted his return to civilian life, attending graduate school at CSU San Marcos, the support he received from the CSUSM Veterans’ Center, and the life lessons he learned from military service. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jan Michael Letigio Lacea Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Adel Bautista Marilyn Huerta Justin Gans Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-08 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Marine Corps Air Station Miramar (Calif.) Missouri State University Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001-2014 -- Philippines San Diego State University United States. Navy United States. Navy -- Hospital corpsmen Veterans -- United States Great Lakes (Ill.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Cebu City (Philippines) Springfield (Mo.) Okinawa (Japan) Louisiana San Antonio (Tex.) Zamboanga (Philippines) Manila (Philippines) Boracay (Philippines) Bohol (Philippines) Arkansas Marawi (Philippines) Iraq Afghanistan North County San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jan Michael Letigio Lacea License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LetigioLaceaJan_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/15bbb61db5de803ebb96db5ea3cdd033.JPG 99e2c9a7c70bba96058d7b49f5f58f02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daegu, Korea Description An account of the resource Lacea with U.S. Navy Hospital Corpsman, Randy Ferrer (Korean Army Medical Rep) in Daegu, Korea Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 19, 2014 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b2943df6d3d599ed5bcaa4f38ddae61d.jpg 8dbdb798a49c482962fef3b5a6fb5c5d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 2013 Marine Corps Ball Description An account of the resource Lacea posing with Corporal Mark Geppelt at the Marine Corps Ball, Camp Butler, Okinawa, Japan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November, 2013 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8fe465df3d7d3bc72f114fc0f50acc53.jpg 3a13e1a7aa78b8e19b0b7907f53bffe5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource 2014 Navy Corpsman Ball Description An account of the resource Lacea posing with Hospital Corpsmen, Cody Goddard, Dillon Vick, and Gabriel San Pedro at the 2014 Navy Corpsman Ball, Camp Butler, Okinawa, Japan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June, 2014 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ee334b06de570fa96581da9c1154c5d9.JPG 63c7e636aef083afe39d0115738cd0bb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sergeant Johan Lacea promotion Description An account of the resource Lacea posing with Sergeant Johan Lacea celebration Sergeant Lacea's promotion to E-5, Camp Butler, Okinawa, Japan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June, 2014 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d71760c06f1d24624705473e1964a414.JPG 861ec5d97436c59bfa36798d6d2140f2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Philippines soldiers Description An account of the resource Lacea and Philippines soldiers during Exercise Balikatan, Tarlac, Philippines Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April, 2012 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b8b7016710767f8fd7bd9720df671f11.JPG 2c9a0340b1723ca48dd2e883639167f6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lacea family photo Description An account of the resource A family photo of Lacea, Sergeant Johan Lacea, and Corpsman Howell Lacea at Camp Pendleton, California Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December, 2011 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6ba8991cb99a58d06fcaab76957b145a.JPG 3231b71afb9703b046db0161ee43f1ad Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Deploying to the Philippines Description An account of the resource Lacea deploying to the Philippines on a C-130 plane flying from Okinawa, Japan, Zamboanga, Philippines Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource October, 2012 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ce15a5c0ae75f9e2b5784e9cdb835034.JPG 824fb1ff5dd0388185f7d5347504b5c4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Operation Enduring Freedom support Description An account of the resource Lacea and Lance Corporal Josue Alegarbes in deployment to the Philippines in support of Operation Enduring Freedom, Zamboanga, Philippines Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December, 2012 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5f671f46e326eb21d61207c8fc41eb2d.JPG a3d62b412deeee165a17813a63f2f2ae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wedding day Description An account of the resource Lacea and wife, Jazmin Lacea, on their wedding day in Seaport Village near the U.S.S. Midway Museum, San Diego, CA Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 26, 2018 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/930fdeae5caffd52223a39a8e417d8d5.JPG 99e2c9a7c70bba96058d7b49f5f58f02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Operation Enduring Freedom support 2 Description An account of the resource Lacea with Lance Corporal Jonathan Flores, and Philippines soldiers preparing to destroy ordinance in support of Operation Enduring Freedom, Zamboanga, Philippines Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January, 2013 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lacea, Jan Michael Letigio. Photographs, Various dates. Description An account of the resource Ten photos related to the oral history of Jan Michael Letigio Lacea. Photograph #1 depicts Lacea with U.S. Navy Hospital Corpsman, Randy Ferrer (Korean Army Medical Rep) in Daegu, Korea, 2014. Photograph #2 depicts Lacea posing with Corporal Mark Geppelt at the Marine Corps Ball, Camp Butler, Okinawa, Japan, 2013. Photograph #3 depicts Lacea posing with Hospital Corpsmen, Cody Goddard, Dillon Vick, and Gabriel San Pedro at the 2014 Navy Corpsman Ball, Camp Butler, Okinawa, Japan, 2014. Photograph #4 depicts Lacea posing with Sergeant Johan Lacea celebration Sergeant Lacea's promotion to E-5, Camp Butler, Okinawa, Japan, 2014. Photograph #5 depicts Lacea and Philippines soldiers during Exercise Balikatan, Tarlac, Philippines, 2012. Photograph #6 is a family photo of Lacea, Sergeant Johan Lacea, and Corpsman Howell Lacea at Camp Pendleton, California, 2011. Photograph #7 depicts Lacea deploying to the Philippines on a C-130 plane flying from Okinawa, Japan, Zamboanga, Philippines, 2012. Photograph #8 depicts Lacea and Lance Corporal Josue Alegarbes in deployment to the Philippines in support of Operation Enduring Freedom, Zamboanga, Philippines, 2012. Photograph #9 depicts Lacea and wife, Jazmin Lacea, on their wedding day in Seaport Village near the U.S.S. Midway Museum, San Diego, CA, 2018. Photograph #10 depicts Lacea with Lance Corporal Jonathan Flores, and Philippines soldiers preparing to destroy ordinance in support of Operation Enduring Freedom, Zamboanga, Philippines, 2013. Click on the thumbnails to view the full images in more detail. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011 - 2018 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Madeleine Meyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Floyd Lai OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. student activism;advocacy;intersectionality;identity OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Lai, Floyd. Interview April 10th, 2023 SC027-49 00:51:43 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights San Marcos (Calif.) student activism ; advocacy ; intersectionality ; identity Floyd Lai Madeleine Meyer Video LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.mp4 1:|12(14)|23(3)|42(9)|55(3)|67(18)|80(14)|100(16)|113(8)|124(10)|138(13)|151(17)|166(2)|179(9)|193(5)|208(8)|223(8)|234(15)|248(10)|261(9)|274(2)|287(7)|302(2)|315(5)|330(6)|343(6)|358(2)|372(14)|385(11)|399(4)|415(9)|431(8)|440(17)|452(13)|467(15)|482(5)|499(8)|513(10)|528(8)|543(9)|557(15)|571(6)|587(10)|601(16)|614(16)|632(16)|645(2)|661(9)|676(4)|691(11)|704(6)|717(11)|735(6)|736(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/cdc9cc3afd3d45aade44b574d2e95ada.mp4 Other video 0 Introduction and Background Interviewer Madeleine Meyer introduces Floyd Lai, who was Director of the Cross-Cultural Center from 2011 to 2023. He talks briefly about his family background and childhood, as well as his identity as a Chinese American. Lai then describes his educational journey and how he originally went to school for environmental engineering. After a lackluster experience, Lai decided to switch career paths after interning at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irivine. 0 375 Student Activism and Social Justice Despite not having a specific background in courses related to activism or advocacy, Lai describes how the Cross-Cultural Center and different lived experiences impacted his perception. Self-exploration is defined as a major contributor to his understanding of accepting peoples differences. Lai also discusses how living as an Asian American has impacted his goals for activism and social justice. 0 648 The Earlier CCC Meyer asks Lai to remember the CCC when he first arrived in 2011. Back then, the University Student Union had not yet been built, and several student organizations such as the Black Student Center were not yet founded. Coming from University of California Irvine, with one of the first Cross-Cultural Centers, Lai describes how his previous experiences impacted his work at the CCC. As the center expanded, Lai recalls more and more programs and spaces began ; including the Activist Lab, Critical Cougars, and others. Through all of these changes, Lai considers the student body to be more transformative. Every year brings new students, new ideas, and new opportunities for growth. 0 1034 The CCC Programs Lai briefly describes a few of the programs that the CCC offered throughout his tenure. Lai also identifies the four specific areas of focus: developing cultural competency, activism, advocacy, and critical engagement across social identity groups. Some of the programs that facilitate these goals include: Critical Cougars: Unlearn, Relarn, the Activist Lab, as well as the expansion of identity-based student organizations such as an APIDA (Asian Pacific Islander Desi American) center at CSUSM. 0 1540 Personal Growth from the CCC Lai considers the role that the CCC has impacted his personal and professional expansion. Beginning with an internship, and later six years of work, at the University of California's Cross-Cultural Center, Lai describes how different programs, roles, and students have impacted him. He attributes his work at the CCC to expanding his understanding of disabilities, for instance. 0 1810 Challenges at the CCC Considering the different challenges in his tenure as Director of the CCC, Lai recalls how the pandemic forces the entire campus to switch online, and how well it was handled. He also discusses the pushback against Critical Race Theory, as well as to different outreach programs. Overall, Lai stresses his goal in educating the next generation, and that challenges have not deterred him. 0 2194 The CCC Coexistence with Student Identity Spaces As more and more student identity-based spaces open, Meyer questions Lai regarding the role of the CCC. Lai addresses that the CCC has continued to coexist with the expansion of other student centers because of its role in providing a space for those students who do not feel represented elsewhere. Currently, with approval of an APIDA center, Lai acknowledges that the role of the CCC will change as its demographics shift, yet the purpose to advocate for activism and inclusivity will remain. 0 2643 The Future of the CCC Lai considers the role of the CCC in the future, in an ideal world. He considers the financial aspects of being a student, and how the CCC could better facilitate student-incomes. Regarding disabled students, he also considers the potential for programs that coexist and yet go beyond those offered with Disabled Student Services (DSS). 0 2895 Some Favorite Memories From his time as Director, Lai recalls some favorite memories. Working with different student graduate assistants are some of his highlights. He specifically enjoyed watching his first-class of graduates, wherein he began working with a freshman class and witnessed their collegiate careers and graduation. 0 Floyd Lai served as Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University from 2011 to 2023. In this Interview, Floyd discusses the growth and development of the CCC in conjunction with other student organizations. As a self-identified Chinese American, Lai addresses how his personal, educational, and professional background have informed one another. Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Floyd Lai, director of the Cross-Cultural Center here at California State University San Marcos, (for) the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Monday, April 10th, 2023, and the time is 4:38(pm). Hi Floyd, could you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your early life? Where did you grow up, what your parents did for work? Lai: Hi, Madeleine. Yeah, so my name once again is Floyd Lai. I use he/him pronouns. And I grew up, I was born originally in, on the island of Oahu, in Kahuku, which is on the North Shore. My parents are both immigrants from Taiwan . So, they immigrated in about the early seventies, to Lāʻie. Went to school there, got married, went to school there, and that's where I was born. Eventually moved around and arrived in southern California when I turned six. And I've grown up mostly in an area called Roland Heights up in the Los Angeles, greater Los Angeles area, county area. Um, since then, my parents, being immigrants did a couple of different jobs. When we first started and they first came over, they were helping out with a restaurant here in California. And so that's what partly brought us here to California. And then over time, my father eventually went into, as an entrepreneur went into his own business. And so we have, since I wanna say about the mid-nineties, he um, we have a manufacturing business in zippers . And so, my--it's a family business, although I'm not a part of it, and so (laughs) I'm indirectly involved, but so they manufacture and create zippers for the garment industry in general. Meyer: Oh, that's really interesting. So what was your educational journey like? I understand that you got your degree in bioengineering from UC (University of California) Irvine, is that correct? Lai: Almost, almost. It was in environmental engineering. Meyer: Oh, okay. Lai: So, yeah, I don't think biomedical or bio was, was quite ready yet. But at Irvine where I went to school, my original, I graduated the degree in environmental engineering. In my junior year I had a(n) internship, which allowed me to go and actually experience what it was like, kind of taking samples of water and you know, doing things. I went and visited government agencies to kind of see a history of what the land looked like prior to the current state, just to see if there were any underwater tanks or anything that would hold anything hazardous. So did that one summer and realized I didn't like it. I didn't see myself doing that for very much longer. And one thing that was different though is that I was heavily involved on campus, and so I was involved in a couple of different student organizations. I interned as a Special Projects Intern at the Cross-Cultural Center. So that was my first introduction to multicultural or cross-cultural centers. And so because of that, it really allowed me to kind of see that I enjoyed working with students and kind of being able to develop programs and being a part of something like that. And it took a mentor of mine, someone I consider a mentor, to tap me on the shoulder and say, “Hey, you'd be really good at this. This is something you might want to consider as a career.” By then I was so far along in my degree that I decided not to change, but rather just complete the degree. And after I graduated college, (I) went into the field of student affairs, which is kind of the work that I do now. And so that's kind of how I got into the pathway of where I am today. My, I decided to work to see if this was kind of the field I wanted to get into. And fortunately, the mentor who I consider someone who kind of guided me on this pathway, left the institution (and) came back, or left southern California, came back and was in a new position and was looking for someone. And so I, that's where I got a job with her, at Alliant International University. It was kind of a jack of all trades ; I learned a lot of different skills. It was a very small institution. And so I learned, I was the Student Affairs Coordinator, but I did a lot of different things while I was there. And so, that was only gonna be one year. That turned into three, and then I finally decided that I needed to go to grad school, so I ended up getting my graduate or master's degree in post-secondary administration and student affairs at University of Southern California. And so, in that process, about a year into my program, there was an opportunity to go back to my alma mater at UCI (University of California, Irvine) and get a chance to work there as a program coordinator. So I was in my graduate program. There was this opportunity, I wasn't sure how this was gonna work, but I decided to go for it. (I) was hired, and so I essentially was doing a large commute between Irvine, downtown LA, and West LA where I lived. And just kind of making that work for the couple years that I was there. That eventually ended up being my full-time position at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine. I worked there for about six years, and then as I was looking to see what the next step would be in my progression of my career, an opportunity occurred down here at Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos, in twenty-- about 2011. And so, I was hired in June of 2011 to work here at Cal State San Marcos. I've been here ever since. Meyer: Mm-hmm. And you're the longest running program director, right? Lai: I am, yeah. So, we've had, I'm the fifth person that's been in the position as the, at the time, Associate Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. But, I've been the longest serving. Meyer: Okay. Lai: And so I'm going on about, (my) 13th year now that it's 2023, so. Meyer: Okay. Were there any particular instances in your life in which you decided that student activism and social justice was really what you felt passionate about? Was there like any one incident or student you helped or? Lai: Yeah. I don't know if there was one single instance necessarily. I--again, my degree was in environmental engineering, and so someone who has that sort of degree, their course load or their classes are pretty set. I was double majoring at the time or attempting to double major with a degree in Japanese language and literature. Which didn't happen. But--so there was very little time for me to take, you know, extensive sociology courses, ethnic studies courses. I took one Asian American Studies class. But I think those opportunities, along with the work that I did at the Cross-Cultural Center, really opened my eyes to what might be possible. I wouldn't say that I was passionate about the work in that regard, but I think as a student, I really enjoyed the topics and issues that were being brought up. A lot of it was around self-exploration, better understanding my own identities and how it interacted with some of the experiences that I had. I will say that I think something that was seminal was I um, in about nineteen, mid-nineties, about ninety-five or so, the internet was still kind of in its early infancy. This is when we had to go to chat rooms or go to, go to certain rooms to be able to chat online and talk to one another. And I was still, you know, I was new to the technology, but I had um, was in one of the labs and I received a message indicating, that you know from someone randomly somewhere that, you know, pretty much told me as an Asian American that I was ruining his career, his academic career. And that he wanted to basically kill every effing one of us. You know, I didn't know what, how to react to it at the time. I went to the person in the lab, let them know, realized I wasn't the only person that received that message. Turns out I and a bunch of other folks that happened to be in the lab and also happened to have Asian sounding last names, were the first instance of a hate crime over email at the time at UCI (University of California at Irvine). And so that experience was sort of a culminating experience for me when it came to how one's identity can impact their lived experiences. Right? Up until--not that I was unaware of that before, but I think as an Asian American, the experiences I had weren't necessarily equivalent to maybe, let's say a Black American or, someone who might identify as Latinx. There wasn't even that term back then, right? And so those are the things that I think really opened my eyes. And so I got more involved, invested in the work that the Cross-Cultural Center did at UCI, and because of that, that allowed me to explore those areas that I probably wouldn't have if I had continued to go into the field of engineering. I take all of the learning I got, the way I think as an engineer and try to apply it in the work I do today. And so definitely it still serves me in a lot of ways. Um, but it was, I would say that experience coupled with the support that I got from the Cross-Cultural Center and the mentorship that I got, and the opportunities I had to work there that allowed me to find this field of student affairs, and specifically multicultural affairs, is the work that I do. And so, that's been kind of the trajectory and the pathway that I've kind of fallen into. And, you know, like with any position, I don't know how long I'll be somewhere, but there's definitely something unique and special that I've experienced here at Cal State San Marcos that is reminiscent of my time as an undergrad at UCI that I think they're very similar in that at that time, Irvine was not as big as it is now. And it felt very--it was, it felt like it was just, it was just coming into its own. And I feel like Irv-- Cal State San Marcos is in a similar way kind of coming into its own as well. And so I think I enjoy those experiences and why working here has been a great opportunity for me to continue to grow and develop as not only my professional career, but also participating in the student life that occurs here on campus. Meyer: Right. Right. Okay. So oh, you can go ahead and take a drink. Yeah. Did any, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first came aboard here? Lai: Yeah so, my understanding and I'm a person who, when I learned real early an adage that I, again, one of my mentors said, you know it, you don't, you're not really sure where you're going until you really understood where you've come from. And so I've taken that to heart in a lot of ways. And so, I worked at UCI for about six years and really understood the history. Coming here I had a very similar, I didn't know fully--it's different. It's a different campus. It's a different population of students that I work with. And so, it took some time to kind of understand sort of the history of what the (CSUSM Cross-Cultural) center is. So, it really appealed to me. We at the time were called Multicultural Programs. There was a Cross-Cultural Center. It was up in what is currently now where the University Advancement Office is located in the Commons Area, kind of up there. And I had two offices, that was kind of the center. And then I was a part of the Student Life and Leadership (SLL), which is now has also evolved in, it has a different name now on campus: Student Leadership and Involvement Center now. But back then it was SLL. And I was hired on as the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so what that meant is that I was a part of Student Life, or at that time, Student Life and Leadership. And I oversaw the Cross-Cultural Center, but it was also integrated into much of the other programs, which included orientation at the time, student, student organizations, fraternity and sorority life. It was all encompassed in that department. So, I had colleagues that had a specific area. And then my area was in Multicultural Programs, or the Cross-Cultural Center. We were a small office (laughs). My desk was literally in the middle of everything. No walls, you know, I was just there and everything kind of happened . There was comfortable couches and things but it was, you know, it was busy. It could be loud at times. And so, I had to either kind of zone it out so I could focus on the work, or really develop relationships with the folks and the students that were there. It was, it felt you know, we were still kind of growing in a lot of ways. And so, I used the first couple years to really understand, or at least try to understand where the Cross-Cultural Center at Cal State San Marcos, what its history had been, what its legacy was at the time, and what it could be, and really understanding that. Um, and so that's kind of the first kind of impression I got. I know I did a lot of walking back and forth between my quote unquote office or upstairs. So about, probably about two days or three days after my first day, which was June 11th, I remember that 2011, or maybe it was (June) 13, whatever that Monday was, Dilcie Perez, who was my supervisor at the time, took me to a meeting to talk about the development and construction of the new University Student Union (building on CSUSM campus that houses student organizations) at the time. So, I got a chance to see kind of what was gonna happen within the next couple of years. And sure enough, soon as, you know, this Union the Union was built, we had a much larger space. We--at the time, there were still only the three centers. So, it was the Cross-Cultural Center at the time, (another center) known as the Women's Equity Center, or the Women's Center, I should say. It was before it was called the--what it's current name is (Women and Gender Equity Center), and then the LGBTQIA Pride Center. So it was just those three spaces and so we each had a space, and really it was a lot more square footage, a lot more opportunities to kind of do programs and do different things in those spaces. So, I've seen kind of an, an evolution of how space has affected and been an integral part of what the students experience. Right? And so, they had now a larger space they could call their home and be able to participate in the programming that we did. Meyer: Nice. So, obviously a lot has changed in the years since you have been Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. What do you think some of the biggest transformations are? I mean, obviously the space transformed. Lai: Yeah. I think, you know, students are different, right? I think every year there's a new crop of students that come in, comes in, and so their--the demographic, their experiences are very different. The last couple years with COVID in particular. So there, so I think of, you know the students we have are part of the differences in trying to ensure that we're fulfilling our mission and supporting the students that come in, whatever experiences they have at the time. So, that I think has evolved and shifted and changed. I would say the issues too, I think back when I started, not that it wasn't an issue, but I think questions about diversity, equity and inclusion, weren't as divisive as they feel like right now to some degree. And the ability to have a difference of opinion, or even be diverse for lack of a better word, it seemed like there was less of that animosity or even a question of whether that's even integral or important, than there is now. And so that's been a shift or change that I've seen. Besides obviously the space. I think the mission has shifted and evolved and changed. So as I've gotten a better sense of, one, honoring and understanding what the history of the Cross-Cultural Center was here at Cal State San Marcos. You know, after a couple years, I wanted to put my own sort of spin and, or impact it in a way that I thought would benefit the students that were here at the time. And so, the mission, not that it's evolved, it's kind of--well no--it has evolved in a way that I think is trying to be more --trying to meet the needs of the students that we have currently. So those are some of the things: the programs, the way it's organized as well, programmatically, so that it aligns with our mission. We're trying to be more strategic about that as well. And so those have been some of the things that I think I've seen kind of shift and change, as well as I think just the, just the natural budget cycles, politics and other things that occur on a college campus. Meyer: Can you talk a little bit about the programs that you guys have? Lai: Yeah, yeah. Our current iteration now, we have, our focus is in four specific areas which include: developing cultural competency, activism and advocacy, critical engagement across social identity groups. So, we come from an intersectional lens. And so, recognizing that there is, there are ways that different people and different identities can interact and have unique outcomes. And so how do we explore that a little bit? And then the retention of underrepresented students in ensuring that they stay here and are successful. We have a high number of students who are first generation college students. And so recognizing that there is additional support that's needed. So those are the four sort of main pillars, for lack of a better word, that we have in the Cross-Cultural Center that really round us in the work that we do in the mission of the center. The programs we put on mirror that. So, we have program series, that we kind of--as a guide for our students. When I first came on, I think--and I think with anything we want, I was still learning, and so the students had some set programs that they put on, and you know, it would change and evolve depending on what the student's interests were. And so, it felt like it was not something con-- there was always an underlying thread, but there was not something that felt like it was consistent. And so, probably about five or six years ago, we instituted more of a program series that aligned with the themes that I shared earlier. And so, some of them are direct correlations. So, for example the Activist Lab, that meets our theme of advocacy and activism, it's an exploration of different ways in which students or participants can see who, what activists, who they were, what were their causes, how did they approach creating social change. Protest is absolutely an integral part of it, but it's not the only way that I think, um, students oftentimes think may be the only way. And so really helping to explore the different avenues of creating social changes is what we do within the Activist Lab. The other one we do as far as retention is called Academe &amp ; Me, it used to be called Tukwut Talks: Conversations with Faculty. But it was really about how to create programs that allow students to develop relationships with faculty members, recognizing that they were students themselves at one point, had highs and lows. And you know, and really humanize, I think for lack of a better word, because I think students oftentimes, either if they don't have a question or unsure about having a conversation with their faculty member, they don't. They--what do we talk about kind of a thing, right? And so they often put 'em on this sort of pedestal. And so inviting faculty--and even now we have grad students come in and participate--but let them know that it's okay that they have, they're just like anyone else. Maybe even learning about a particular subject of study that perhaps they didn't even know was something they could study. So that particular--Academe &amp ; Me is really about helping to hopefully create a pipeline of students to go into the professorate or into academia. Again, developing relationships with them and so, that's part of how we hopefully can retain our students. One final thing that we do, well two others I'll speak to. One is Critical Cougars: Unlearn. Relearn. And so that really aligns with the notion of how do we explore those different identities? And in the critical engagements and this around across social identity groups. It's kind of our largest sort of bucket, ‘cause anything can be sort of put in that particular bucket, but it's really about how do we unlearn maybe things that we learned in high school, how do we relearn or even learn for the first time things that we weren't taught necessarily, depending on where we went. And how do we evolve and continue to change and challenge ourselves critically in the thinking that we have. And so that's what that sort of program does. And then finally, I'll speak to something--my identity is, and I didn't, I spoke part of it a little bit earlier when I introduced myself, but my parents are from Taiwan, so I identify as Asian American, specifically Chinese American. And so, currently at Cal State San Marcos, there isn't a physical building, or a center dedicated to Asian Pacific Islander Desi American students. So with that vacuum, I said you know, the Cross-Cultural Center and oftentimes a Multicultural Center has served in that sort of capacity ; where the space is there but the other, like the LGBTQIA or the Women's Center, this Cross-Cultural Center in other, not necessarily here but in other spaces, they've been--they came from that space. And then once they had a critical mass or felt the need, they were established. So in the same vein, we don't have one currently. So because of that, and partly because of my own identity as that, we have a program called Defining Diaspora: Asian Pacific Islander Desi American Identities. Which essentially is just an exploration of that really large group of individuals and identities that fall under that sort of diaspora. And so, a lot of programming is, can be about a specific individual, a particular culture, a particular practice or tradition in those areas. And so that's kind of what Defining Diaspora is meant to do, is to really help to expose students of those identities, or those that aren't and wanting to learn more about to those types of cultures and traditions that are part of that. So those are kind of the programs we do. Underlying all that is really a focus on social justice work. And so, things that my predecessors started, my immediate predecessor, Sarah (Sheikh) started was the Social Justice Summit, which is kind of a three-day, two-night retreat. Which really allows a small group of about forty students the opportunity to explore their personal identities, better understand what social justice, that term, ‘cause I think we throw it out a lot of times. We want, you know environmental justice, this kind of justice. And so, what does it really mean when we talk about social justice? Having an understanding of the dynamics of either oppression or privilege, and really exploring what those concepts are. And then, we hope, and it's you know it's not always perfect, but it's that third day is then a focus as we return or plan or prepare ourselves to come back to campus. How do we become allies or co-conspirators, or how can we better support those communities or identities we may not necessarily have ourselves? And so, that has been something that's gone on for a while, again that predated me, and we've just kind of expanded and grown that. So, now we have in addition to the summit, which has been on hiatus because of COVID but we hope to bring it back this fall, the Symposium which is kind of more of a conference style. And that sprang out of an understanding that even, again, I'm a big proponent of tradition or just what legacies have been left behind. There were you know, faculty and stu-- staff that really wanted to take an opportunity for the campus to explore what social justice means in a conference sort of setting. So whether it's workshops, presentations. So that kind of has evolved into our Social Justice Symposium. And then when COVID hit, we couldn't do either one of those. And so we, my GA, graduate assistant at the time Daniela (Carreon) we, in discussions, we wanted to start a scholars program. And so, it's kind of a little bit of the summit. It's not the overnight, because it's kind of a class setting or curriculum. It's over the course of a couple weeks. Similarly, not a very big class, but very intimate for folks who want to be able to learn about these things and be scholars. And so the hope is that they're all connected in some way. Scholars can help in presenting at Symposium, Scholars can also be some of the mentors at the Summit and retreat. And so that's another area that we focus on in the Cross-Cultural Center, in collaboration now with the other centers, Student Life Centers that exist here on campus. Meyer: In what ways do you think, has your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center helped you expand and develop as a person and as a professional? I know you've touched a little bit (overlapping dialogue) but- Lai: Yeah. Yeah. No, you know, the work I do, I would say absolutely students are at the heart of the work that we do. And so, as students have evolved and changed in their challenges and their perspectives have evolved, I in similar fashion, I think have learned from that as well. And so--it's not, I say this to students all the time: it's not about saying, “Oh I took this workshop. Check, I'm done with diversity, or I'm done with this topic.” It's an ongoing, you know, lifelong pursuit of recognizing and interacting with people that are maybe different from you. And everyone's gonna have a unique perspective or a unique--I mean there are similar, you know places or, you know people connect to. But everyone's different. And for that reason, I think I've evolved and developed a more nuanced approach in how to not only have the conversation around , um, diversity, equity, inclusion, even topics of social justice. I view my role oftentimes as the Director (of the Cross-Cultural Center) in how do we invite people to have those conversations? Even if they're difficult, even if they're challenging, even if they're divisive. Which I know is so hard to do, because why would I wanna sit across the table from someone who absolutely does not believe I should exist or doesn't agree in a lot of different ways. But I think it's through that process, that I've been able to kind of learn and grow as well on either approaches or ways in which we can kind of bring people to the table to have these types of conversations. It is my belief that I think, and I take that to heart because it's my own experience as I've better understood you know, the various isms, prejudices, biases and whatnot that I am a better person for it. And I'm more aware of situations and things that can be changed to enable folks to feel like they're included as part of that experience, whatever it may necessarily be. So, you know my father is an immigrant as part of his identity. He was also, he was born in 1940, and so he was prior to the polio vaccine. So, he has a disability in the sense that he at the time had a brace, and now it, now he's in a wheelchair. But that allowed me to recognize, I mean, we got so many stairs here at Cal State San Marcos, sometimes it's hard to know where people have accessibility and things like that. But so that's something I you know, I grew up with and I recognized, so I thought, “Oh yeah, I know about disabilities. I get it.” And then more recently at a conference I attended, and this is COVID was still happening, we had the stickers that said, “Hey, if it's green, we can hug each other. If it's yellow, you know, maybe like elbows or whatever. And if it's red, no, I want to stay six feet away,” kind of thing. And so, I was part of a registration group, and I share this in the workshops that I do with students, but I said, “Okay, great. We're done, right? We just gotta do the stickers.” And a colleague of mine said, “Well, wait, what if they're colorblind? How would they know which color to pick?” Never occurred to me, because I'm not colorblind. So, we eventually found a solution. We wrote down, you know, R, Y, and G, so folks could at least see what was written there, regardless of the color. But it's those things, those interactions. And I realized that, you know, it's not until you're either confronted with something or maybe you say something you (laughs) you know, you probably shouldn't have said that you realize or better understand sort of the experience. And so, my hope in the work that I do with the Cross-Cultural Center and the experiences that I've gained, I've learned every, every time I've had an interaction, how I can better hopefully have a future interaction or things that I need to work on myself a little bit more in recognizing. And so it's an iterative process. And so, I think that's been something that I've been able to take away because of the fact that I work in a space like this. Versus a corporate you know, entity or things like that. But because of this, it gives me a really unique perspective on how our society functions and what things we can do to try and really be as inclusive as possible for all. Meyer: So as your time in your role as director, what are the greatest challenges that you believe the center has faced? I know the pandemic probably threw a wrench in everything. Lai: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big one, right? I think having to pivot within a couple weeks, I think the university did an amazing job. You know--it's hindsight now knowing some of the impacts. But I think in the moment, having to do that, definitely that was one challenge, right? In having to deal now, I think with students who have to relearn what it's like to be in college, ‘cause they really didn't really get that experience or relearn what it means to learn even. Because I think those expectations have shifted and changed. I would say also in my time here, I mentioned a little bit earlier, there is I think more of a--I wouldn't even call it a critical view of, but critical in the sense of like something that is a critique. Less--It's very critical. I think a lot of folks are questioning things now related to--let me think. Oh, I'm trying to, it's blank. It's not coming to my mind right now, but just even the necessity for diversity, equity, and inclusion there are-- Oh, critical race theories, CRT, that's one. Which I think has somehow--education has always been I think viewed in ways, understandably, because tax-- Public education, I'll speak to because tax dollars go into it, and so how can we be most sufficient and effective and so forth. And I get that. But even, you know, things like affirmative action which is, we don't have in California, but even those concepts and ideas of how do we outreach to underserved or underrepresented populations. Those things that I think were differences of opinion or approach with regard to policy has taken a very dark turn in the sense that it's very personal in a lot of ways. And I know and I'm not--I again, I was an engineer(ing major), so I didn't take any sociology or gender equity studies classes. But I think it may be second wave feminism but this, the personal is political, is a truism that I think is in a lot of ways where a lot of the policies and things that are being done are directly targeting certain groups. And so the challenge for me, and I've wondered this as well because I've seen states now, right? And their legislatures look at different ways and approaches, such that for example with regard to students that may go to university in Florida, are getting a very different experience when it comes to interacting or working (with) others. Partly because of what they can't necessarily discuss or talk about. I have colleagues, and I'm sure I think I heard from others that Offices of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion had to rename themselves because they were illegal now to be in some of those spaces. So I've seen that shift in the sense that I think I'm gonna be, I--my goal as an educator is to really help the up-and-coming generational students think differently or to be prepared for the work that they do. Now, it's gonna be compounded by the fact that based on your geography or location or where you go to school, you're gonna have a very different experience of things that you've been able to experience as a student. We often say that going to college is kind of a mini version of real life, but here you can make mistakes and the consequences aren't necessarily like, you know, a lot of times we try to find the developmental approach within Student Affairs. How do we do this differently? How do we, you know, it's meant to be a growing opportunity that oftentimes you don't get when you're out in quote unquote the real world. Things just kind of happen and you--that the consequences are what they are. So, my fear is that oftentimes now, if my goal is to have students be able to understand and interact with someone who has no idea or hasn't necessarily had these same experiences or similar types of experiences, doesn't have to be the same--what's that gonna mean then for our society as a whole? Right? Because again, depending on your geography or where you go to school, you're in a very different kind of educational experience compared to someone else who does. I think that where information comes from, there are some benefits with social media and other things where it has democratized and allowed multiple--even filming things, catching things that, police brutality and things like that. So a very democratized, but now the source of where things are and having some level of information literacy and recognizing where it's (media) coming from it, what's the purpose of what it is, and where's the quote unquote truth and where do you suss it out, is another challenge I think that I'm seeing as well in the work that we do. And trying to, we used to start with the same set of facts, and now the question is, “Are we still in, are we talking about the same set of facts or not?” (laughs) And so there's again, some of that that I think sort of needs to happen. And so I see that play out in the work that we do because, you know I may start with like, “Hey, so this has been the experience,” and someone might say, “No, that's not.” And so then I want to learn more about where that is. But it's not necessarily always productive, I guess. And so that's where I see some of the of the challenges in the work that we're doing with these types of spaces, Cross-Cultural Centers or Multicultural Centers. Meyer: It's the politicization of something that shouldn't be. Yeah. Lai: Yeah. In a lot of ways. I mean, I could say this, you know, this notion of public health and how politicized even with regard to COVID, right? The notion of--and some of this is cultural you know it's natural for me to think in terms of the collective, because that's you know in Asian cultures broadly speaking there's a collectivist sort of mentality in how that's supported. America has a very individualistic streak, which is you know it's not a bad thing. I think where the challenge comes in is where does one's, where is one's freedom impinged upon and where it's not? And that's been debated for a long time with free speech and lots of other things, but it has been politicized even in areas like public health to a lot of degrees. And so that's, yeah. So those, they're not new challenges per se, but there are new approaches to how do we have these types of conversations, or how do we help educate and teach about these things in a way that hopefully is broadening and enlightening. So. Meyer: So what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexist with the expansion of identity specific spaces like the Black Student Center and the Latin /x Center? Lai: Yeah, that's a great question and one that I wrestle with because I don't know if I necessarily have an answer myself. You know, I started at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC (University of California) Irvine which is one of the first centers, and this is the history that was drilled into me. Second only at the time at the UC system to a University of Washington, at a time when I think resources were scarce. And so, it made sense to start from a collective cross-cultural sort of center and space. And I would say even for, depending on where whatever campus you're on, either resources were tied or made sense that collectively these were cross-cultural or multicultural spaces. They weren't enough, you know. We have students, understandably within the Black communities, BIPOC, so Black, Indigenous, People of Color communities who said, you know, “Okay, this is a good start, but it's not meeting the needs that we have.” And so that's why these spaces then, you know , like a Black Student Center or other spaces have kind of evolved. The question then becomes: well where does then, once these things have evolved and come out of necessarily this space, what then becomes the role of this space where it started and how does it evolve and change? And that's what I've been wrestling with myself because--and I'm not the only one. University, UCSD, San Diego, they started with the Cross-Cultural Center and now they've got a Black Student Center, Indigenous Center, and all these other additional spaces. And so, it's been trying to figure out, besides programmatically, besides the history months or the heritage months, what are the ways in which they can interact one with another? And so, it's gonna be different on each campus. But I think the conclusion for me has been, you know, the Cross-Cultural Center is essential, especially if there's a belief and understanding, which a lot of my colleagues have, about the notion of intersectionality. We're more than just one-dimensional pieces. I'm, you know, I'm Chinese, but I'm also American. Identify as a cisgendered male. All of those things play with one another in the experiences that I have and/or the choices and decisions that I make. And in the same vein I think, there's always gonna be a place for a cross-cultural center or multicultural center, because these unique and specific spaces are serving a purpose. They're helping Black students getting the support they need because they either, whether it's cultural validation, whether it's just being with someone who doesn't question (laughs) why you're there. Or isn't peppering you with questions about something they may not be familiar with, which, you know, naturally happens. “Oh, what about this? Why do you eat this food? What's that?” You know, those types of things. And I think in most situations it'd be great, but there is an instance where I think there's fatigue in having to explain yourself all the time or, and so sometimes it's nice to just be, when you go into a space. Which I can see there's why there are certain spaces, whether it's the Latin /x Center and so forth. So, I think some of it depends on the landscape of the campus of where a particular space may be at. Here, on our campus, for a long, long time, we just had the Cross-Cultural Center, which is the first one, and it wasn't necessarily born out of protest. Students didn't demand it, it was just, as I understand the history, administrators had said, “You know, we want to be prepared for the 21st century student here in North County.” And so, we think this is important. So we, you know, create this space. Soon thereafter, I want to say it was the Pride Center, and then, or maybe the other way around, the Women's Center and then a Pride Center that, you know, were under student government, ASI, at the time. So those were the three centers for a long time. And then, you know Latinx students said, “We need a space. We're over fifty percent of the population, where our needs are not being met.” You know, and I for a long time, and I and because this is (laughs), I think I had a hard time sort of separating myself and not viewing it as a failure on my part, you know. And students would say, “Oh, it's not you, it's not you. We just need this space.” And I couldn't quite understand, “Well, I know you're saying it's not me, but what could I do to help support this population that we're not doing now?” And so, that was what was going on in my mind. And it took me a couple of well, it took a co--one person in particular and other colleagues to say, “You know, don't get caught up in that.” And eventually I was okay, right? Like, it makes sense that there are more of these spaces because that just provides additional support and resources for these communities. So, that should not be the issue, and you shouldn't get caught up in that. But, you know, it's hard and it--your pride takes a little bit of a hit when you're like: well, what am I not doing that is, that you need a separate space to occur? You know, in that same vein, and eventually there'll be most likely well, I know that the President (of CSUSM, Ellen Neufeldt) has agreed to an Asian Pacific Islander (and Desi American ; APIDA) space here at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the programming that you know, is near and dear to me, doesn't mean I can't do it but, you know, instead of redundant programs, it'll probably go to a future APIDA center. And so, it's figuring out, I think what that role is. And I wish I could say I had a great answer, but I do--I think what I've resolved myself to, or resigned myself to understand--that's probably not the way right way to say it, but is that there will always, I think, be a place for a Cross-Cultural Center or Multicultural Center space. What we do in that is gonna vary. And I've had to adjust. So that's the themes that I shared earlier. And the purpose of, in our mission and how we kind of structure what we do is intentional because it avoids or tries not to step on sort of the toes of the other centers and spaces, right? They have their own things that they do and they support the students. We all have different lenses through which we try to do the same work. And so, my role I think, as a Cross-Cultural Center is how do we build community? How do we bring these spaces together? And being more of a connector is something I've kind of started to better understand as far as what I think this, the role of future cross-cultural center or multicultural center spaces that maybe dealing with this might be is, is how do we connect these communities and keep them together in some way. And continue to find those gaps, those spaces where students may not-- An example is what if I'm multicultural or multiracial? I don't feel like I belong in the Black Student Center, or I don't feel like I belong in the Latin /x Center if I'm both Black and Mexican. And so, I think that's where a space like the Cross-Cultural Center or a multicultural center could still serve as a purpose in exploring those identities, helping them to navigate the complexities of what that entails ; as well as their gender, sexual orientation, all of that in helping them to decide that. So, I think that's what I've come to understand. But the--you know, the verdict's still out on what the (laughs) what that is, and our students keep changing. So, you know, there could be other things that we need to address and figure out as we move further along. But my hope ultimately is that whatever it is, that it'll still continue to serve the needs of the students that are coming to our university and to the institutions that they are applying to. Meyer: What direction do you think the CCC should grow in from here? Lai: Yeah. If I had my (laughs)-- Meyer: If you had your, if you had your dreams. Lai: Of course. You know I think I would love to, and we're kind of moving in this direction, I would love to figure out better ways to support students financially. Whether it's through scholarships or other things. We are as part of I think this project as well, we're celebrating our 20th anniversary. Which you know, we're still pretty young. We're still kind of just getting out of our teen years, right? Into our twenties. But it's a great milestone I think, with regard to being here on this campus. And so, I think financially looking at ways in which we can support our students. I would love to expand our staff as well. I think-- t's funny, I've been the longest serving director, but I've also been a staff of one. And so, in some ways I wonder if I've, if I'd been successful, if there would've been more, other staff members a part of it. But I would love to see more staff members, because I think there just isn't you know-- students' needs are getting more and more complex that require more time, and there's only one of me and I'd like to see other staff come in and be able to assist the students that are here, that may need that support. I think there are other areas that we can explore as well when it comes to, you know, we have a Disability Student Services, but their focus really is on providing the support for students to be successful. Not necessarily doing programming to help folks understand what those (services) are and how we can make the--make some changes or differences. People that are neurodivergent, there's just a lot of different areas and identities that haven't necessarily been explored. But I think those would be opportunities for a Cross-Cultural Center to kind of be able to provide space or to provide programming that can help other students understand not necessarily what it's like, but better understand those conditions and/or maybe consider different ways of thinking about how they, when they have the opportunity or are placed in a position where they can make a difference, that they're hopefully considering and thinking about those areas that they themselves perhaps are privileged in. Where they don't have to worry about or they don't have to think about it in any way. And so that level of work, I think in programming and approaching and supporting those communities, I think is other areas where we can see the Cross-Cultural Center sort of grow. I think there's the conversation about the divisiveness in politics in other ways that, you know, a big part of what I'm doing now and hopefully will continue to do, has been working with the Civility Campaign (program by the CSUSM Dean of Students) on our campus. They kind of, when I first started here at Cal State San Marcos, the, at the time, this campaign started around the same time, so I've been connected to it for a long time. But I've seen the significance and importance of how do we have dialogue and conversation--particularly with someone who may just be of a completely different belief system--but hopefully still get nuggets of wisdom or at least try to understand one another. A lot of, I don't want to make or simplify to say if we just saw you know, held hands kumbaya, that it was gonna be that easy. I don't think it's that easy, but I think that is the work that is necessary for students, particularly at a time when perhaps they've come from very homogeneous communities or they just have never been introduced to someone. To be able to find ways in which those kinds of opportunities can help them to grow and be eventually a better graduate of Cal State San Marcos, because they've had experiences or programs that have introduced them to these types of things that they haven't necessarily done before. So, I think long-term those are some things I'm hoping that the Cross-Cultural Center can play an active role in supporting or perhaps being a big part of really proactively engaging our students in a way that again, makes those students that graduate from Cal State San Marcos really the premier students here in North County. And who go on to become leaders and folks that are making these decisions in the community. Meyer: I'm sure you have a lot, but could you share a few of your favorite memories from your time at the Cross-Cultural Center? Lai: Yeah. You know, it's hard to think about. I mean, there's so many different ones. I think I value the different student leaders that have worked with me. From the very first time, when we called them peer educators at the time. Because I'm a staff of one, I rely heavily on my student staff to really help in getting a lot of the work and the mission of the center done. And so, some of my fondest memories are those different folks that have worked alongside me. Getting to know them, getting to hear about their experiences here on campus. Now seeing them graduate as alumni and really kind of, you know, off in the world and kind of doing some amazing things. I, in Higher Ed you know, I recall after my fifth year that was the first year that I had a student that I knew was a freshman or a first-year student that I saw all the way through and graduate. You know, I've had other students that graduated along the way, but the--that was the first group that I knew from the first time they stepped foot into campus all the way through till they graduated, even transfer students as well. And so, that's one I think fond memory. I love the staff that, I love the staff that I work with now, but also even before when I was part of Student Life and Leadership, Dilcie Perez (formerly in charge of Student Life and Leadership) was my supervisor. And I think she instilled a lot of laughter and like just fun stuff in the work that was oftentimes can be hard and challenging. And so, those are some fond memories. We have a unique tradition here at Cal State San Marcos around Halloween, where a lot of folks dress up, in--within Student Affairs I should say. (laughs) But it's a big deal, and I don't think I fully realized it until I first came to this campus and experienced it for the first time. But some of the different traditions and things like that have been fun and interesting to see. I--commencement is always a fun time where a lot of the memories that I have that I can recollect. When I have had the chance, a lot of us volunteer and help support the program. So, being able to see them (students) cross the stage, see their families and watch them witness their students cross the stage. And again, a lot of them are first generation, first in their families (to graduate college) and the joy and the excitement that they see, those are some memories that I'll definitely keep for a long time. Because I think that is what grounds me. And I know a lot of my colleagues say this, but commencement is kind of, it--the students, yes. But also seeing them achieve and be able to get to that point. And the excitement is also refreshing and kind of a reminder of the work and why we do it. So, when we deal with policy issues or just challenges with bureaucracy of the university, it's always nice to remember those moments because then it reminds at least me of what and why I do the work that I do, and why it's so critical and important. Or at least I would like to think that it's a big part of their experience that they have here at Cal State San Marcos. Meyer: Well, thank you so much, Floyd. You've been a pleasure to interview and yeah, thank you so much. Lai: Thank you. Thanks for taking the time. Meyer: All right. That was great. (laughs). https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.xml LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lai, Floyd. Interview April 10th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai served as Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University from 2011 to 2023. In this Interview, Floyd discusses the growth and development of the CCC in conjunction with other student organizations. As a self-identified Chinese American, Lai addresses how his personal, educational, and professional background have informed one another. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-49 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Civil rights Education, Higher Human rights Racism -- California -- Irvine Student Success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Irvine (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai Activists and activism Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e721d1cd7dda1d7fcf17f30300ce3e80.pdf 47e89b7891da9bb8f9d88de16560a121 PDF Text Text FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Floyd Lai, director of the Cross-Cultural Center here at California State University San Marcos, (for) the CrossCultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Monday, April 10th, 2023, and the time is 4:38(pm). Hi Floyd, could you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your early life? Where did you grow up, what your parents did for work? Lai: Hi, Madeleine. Yeah, so my name once again is Floyd Lai. I use he/him pronouns. And I grew up, I was born originally in, on the island of Oahu, in Kahuku, which is on the North Shore. My parents are both immigrants from Taiwan. So, they immigrated in about the early seventies, to Lāʻie. Went to school there, got married, went to school there, and that's where I was born. Eventually moved around and arrived in southern California when I turned six. And I've grown up mostly in an area called Roland Heights up in the Los Angeles, greater Los Angeles area, county area. Um, since then, my parents, being immigrants did a couple of different jobs. When we first started and they first came over, they were helping out with a restaurant here in California. And so that's what partly brought us here to California. And then over time, my father eventually went into, as an entrepreneur went into his own business. And so we have, since I wanna say about the mid-nineties, he um, we have a manufacturing business in zippers. And so, my--it's a family business, although I'm not a part of it, and so (laughs) I'm indirectly involved, but so they manufacture and create zippers for the garment industry in general. Meyer: Oh, that's really interesting. So what was your educational journey like? I understand that you got your degree in bioengineering from UC (University of California) Irvine, is that correct? Lai: Almost, almost. It was in environmental engineering. Meyer: Oh, okay. Lai: So, yeah, I don't think biomedical or bio was, was quite ready yet. But at Irvine where I went to school, my original, I graduated the degree in environmental engineering. In my junior year I had a(n) internship, which allowed me to go and actually experience what it was like, kind of taking samples of water and you know, doing things. I went and visited government agencies to kind of see a history of what the land looked like prior to the current state, just to see if there were any underwater tanks or anything that would hold anything hazardous. So did that one summer and realized I didn't like it. I didn't see myself doing that for very much longer. And one thing that was different though is that I was heavily involved on campus, and so I was involved in a couple of different student organizations. I interned as a Special Projects Intern at the Cross-Cultural Center. So that was my first introduction to multicultural or cross-cultural centers. And so because of that, it really allowed me to kind of see that I enjoyed working with students and kind of being able to develop programs and being a part of something like that. And it took a mentor of mine, someone I consider a mentor, to tap me on the shoulder and say, “Hey, you'd be really good at this. This is something you might want to consider as a career.” By then I was so far along in my degree that I decided not to change, but rather just complete the degree. And after I graduated college, (I) went into the field of student affairs, which is kind of the work that I do now. And so that's kind of how I got into the pathway of where I am today. My, I decided to work to see if this was kind of the field I wanted to get into. And fortunately, the mentor who I consider someone who kind of guided me on this pathway, left the institution (and) came back, or left southern California, came back and was in a new position and was looking for someone. And so I, that's where I got a job with her, at Alliant International University. It was kind of a jack of all trades; I learned a lot of different skills. It was a very small institution. And so I learned, I was the Student Affairs Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 1 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 Coordinator, but I did a lot of different things while I was there. And so, that was only gonna be one year. That turned into three, and then I finally decided that I needed to go to grad school, so I ended up getting my graduate or master's degree in post-secondary administration and student affairs at University of Southern California. And so, in that process, about a year into my program, there was an opportunity to go back to my alma mater at UCI (University of California, Irvine) and get a chance to work there as a program coordinator. So I was in my graduate program. There was this opportunity, I wasn't sure how this was gonna work, but I decided to go for it. (I) was hired, and so I essentially was doing a large commute between Irvine, downtown LA, and West LA where I lived. And just kind of making that work for the couple years that I was there. That eventually ended up being my full-time position at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine. I worked there for about six years, and then as I was looking to see what the next step would be in my progression of my career, an opportunity occurred down here at Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos, in twenty-- about 2011. And so, I was hired in June of 2011 to work here at Cal State San Marcos. I've been here ever since. Meyer: Mm-hmm. And you're the longest running program director, right? Lai: I am, yeah. So, we've had, I'm the fifth person that's been in the position as the, at the time, Associate Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. But, I've been the longest serving. Meyer: Okay. Lai: And so I'm going on about, (my) 13th year now that it's 2023, so. Meyer: Okay. Were there any particular instances in your life in which you decided that student activism and social justice was really what you felt passionate about? Was there like any one incident or student you helped or? Lai: Yeah. I don't know if there was one single instance necessarily. I--again, my degree was in environmental engineering, and so someone who has that sort of degree, their course load or their classes are pretty set. I was double majoring at the time or attempting to double major with a degree in Japanese language and literature. Which didn't happen. But--so there was very little time for me to take, you know, extensive sociology courses, ethnic studies courses. I took one Asian American Studies class. But I think those opportunities, along with the work that I did at the Cross-Cultural Center, really opened my eyes to what might be possible. I wouldn't say that I was passionate about the work in that regard, but I think as a student, I really enjoyed the topics and issues that were being brought up. A lot of it was around self-exploration, better understanding my own identities and how it interacted with some of the experiences that I had. I will say that I think something that was seminal was I um, in about nineteen, mid-nineties, about ninety-five or so, the internet was still kind of in its early infancy. This is when we had to go to chat rooms or go to, go to certain rooms to be able to chat online and talk to one another. And I was still, you know, I was new to the technology, but I had um, was in one of the labs and I received a message indicating, that you know from someone randomly somewhere that, you know, pretty much told me as an Asian American that I was ruining his career, his academic career. And that he wanted to basically kill every effing one of us. You know, I didn't know what, how to react to it at the time. I went to the person in the lab, let them know, realized I wasn't the only person that received that message. Turns out I and a bunch of other folks that happened to be in the lab and also happened to have Asian sounding last names, were the first instance of a hate crime over email at the time at UCI (University of California at Irvine). And so that experience was sort of a culminating experience for me Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 2 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 when it came to how one's identity can impact their lived experiences. Right? Up until--not that I was unaware of that before, but I think as an Asian American, the experiences I had weren't necessarily equivalent to maybe, let's say a Black American or, someone who might identify as Latinx. There wasn't even that term back then, right? And so those are the things that I think really opened my eyes. And so I got more involved, invested in the work that the Cross-Cultural Center did at UCI, and because of that, that allowed me to explore those areas that I probably wouldn't have if I had continued to go into the field of engineering. I take all of the learning I got, the way I think as an engineer and try to apply it in the work I do today. And so definitely it still serves me in a lot of ways. Um, but it was, I would say that experience coupled with the support that I got from the Cross-Cultural Center and the mentorship that I got, and the opportunities I had to work there that allowed me to find this field of student affairs, and specifically multicultural affairs, is the work that I do. And so, that's been kind of the trajectory and the pathway that I've kind of fallen into. And, you know, like with any position, I don't know how long I'll be somewhere, but there's definitely something unique and special that I've experienced here at Cal State San Marcos that is reminiscent of my time as an undergrad at UCI that I think they're very similar in that at that time, Irvine was not as big as it is now. And it felt very--it was, it felt like it was just, it was just coming into its own. And I feel like Irv-- Cal State San Marcos is in a similar way kind of coming into its own as well. And so I think I enjoy those experiences and why working here has been a great opportunity for me to continue to grow and develop as not only my professional career, but also participating in the student life that occurs here on campus. Meyer: Right. Right. Okay. So oh, you can go ahead and take a drink. Yeah. Did any, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first came aboard here? Lai: Yeah so, my understanding and I'm a person who, when I learned real early an adage that I, again, one of my mentors said, you know it, you don't, you're not really sure where you're going until you really understood where you've come from. And so I've taken that to heart in a lot of ways. And so, I worked at UCI for about six years and really understood the history. Coming here I had a very similar, I didn't know fully--it's different. It's a different campus. It's a different population of students that I work with. And so, it took some time to kind of understand sort of the history of what the (CSUSM CrossCultural) center is. So, it really appealed to me. We at the time were called Multicultural Programs. There was a Cross-Cultural Center. It was up in what is currently now where the University Advancement Office is located in the Commons Area, kind of up there. And I had two offices, that was kind of the center. And then I was a part of the Student Life and Leadership (SLL), which is now has also evolved in, it has a different name now on campus: Student Leadership and Involvement Center now. But back then it was SLL. And I was hired on as the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so what that meant is that I was a part of Student Life, or at that time, Student Life and Leadership. And I oversaw the Cross-Cultural Center, but it was also integrated into much of the other programs, which included orientation at the time, student, student organizations, fraternity and sorority life. It was all encompassed in that department. So, I had colleagues that had a specific area. And then my area was in Multicultural Programs, or the Cross-Cultural Center. We were a small office (laughs). My desk was literally in the middle of everything. No walls, you know, I was just there and everything kind of happened. There was comfortable couches and things but it was, you know, it was busy. It could be loud at times. And so, I had to either kind of zone it out so I could focus on the work, or really develop relationships with the folks and the students that were there. It was, it felt you know, we were still kind Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 3 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 of growing in a lot of ways. And so, I used the first couple years to really understand, or at least try to understand where the Cross-Cultural Center at Cal State San Marcos, what its history had been, what its legacy was at the time, and what it could be, and really understanding that. Um, and so that's kind of the first kind of impression I got. I know I did a lot of walking back and forth between my quote unquote office or upstairs. So about, probably about two days or three days after my first day, which was June 11th, I remember that 2011, or maybe it was (June) 13, whatever that Monday was, Dilcie Perez, who was my supervisor at the time, took me to a meeting to talk about the development and construction of the new University Student Union (building on CSUSM campus that houses student organizations) at the time. So, I got a chance to see kind of what was gonna happen within the next couple of years. And sure enough, soon as, you know, this Union the Union was built, we had a much larger space. We--at the time, there were still only the three centers. So, it was the Cross-Cultural Center at the time, (another center) known as the Women's Equity Center, or the Women's Center, I should say. It was before it was called the--what it's current name is (Women and Gender Equity Center), and then the LGBTQIA Pride Center. So it was just those three spaces and so we each had a space, and really it was a lot more square footage, a lot more opportunities to kind of do programs and do different things in those spaces. So, I've seen kind of an, an evolution of how space has affected and been an integral part of what the students experience. Right? And so, they had now a larger space they could call their home and be able to participate in the programming that we did. Meyer: Nice. So, obviously a lot has changed in the years since you have been Director of the CrossCultural Center. What do you think some of the biggest transformations are? I mean, obviously the space transformed. Lai: Yeah. I think, you know, students are different, right? I think every year there's a new crop of students that come in, comes in, and so their--the demographic, their experiences are very different. The last couple years with COVID in particular. So there, so I think of, you know the students we have are part of the differences in trying to ensure that we're fulfilling our mission and supporting the students that come in, whatever experiences they have at the time. So, that I think has evolved and shifted and changed. I would say the issues too, I think back when I started, not that it wasn't an issue, but I think questions about diversity, equity and inclusion, weren't as divisive as they feel like right now to some degree. And the ability to have a difference of opinion, or even be diverse for lack of a better word, it seemed like there was less of that animosity or even a question of whether that's even integral or important, than there is now. And so that's been a shift or change that I've seen. Besides obviously the space. I think the mission has shifted and evolved and changed. So as I've gotten a better sense of, one, honoring and understanding what the history of the Cross-Cultural Center was here at Cal State San Marcos. You know, after a couple years, I wanted to put my own sort of spin and, or impact it in a way that I thought would benefit the students that were here at the time. And so, the mission, not that it's evolved, it's kind of--well no--it has evolved in a way that I think is trying to be more--trying to meet the needs of the students that we have currently. So those are some of the things: the programs, the way it's organized as well, programmatically, so that it aligns with our mission. We're trying to be more strategic about that as well. And so those have been some of the things that I think I've seen kind of shift and change, as well as I think just the, just the natural budget cycles, politics and other things that occur on a college campus. Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 4 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 Meyer: Can you talk a little bit about the programs that you guys have? Lai: Yeah, yeah. Our current iteration now, we have, our focus is in four specific areas which include: developing cultural competency, activism and advocacy, critical engagement across social identity groups. So, we come from an intersectional lens. And so, recognizing that there is, there are ways that different people and different identities can interact and have unique outcomes. And so how do we explore that a little bit? And then the retention of underrepresented students in ensuring that they stay here and are successful. We have a high number of students who are first generation college students. And so recognizing that there is additional support that's needed. So those are the four sort of main pillars, for lack of a better word, that we have in the Cross-Cultural Center that really round us in the work that we do in the mission of the center. The programs we put on mirror that. So, we have program series, that we kind of--as a guide for our students. When I first came on, I think--and I think with anything we want, I was still learning, and so the students had some set programs that they put on, and you know, it would change and evolve depending on what the student's interests were. And so, it felt like it was not something con-- there was always an underlying thread, but there was not something that felt like it was consistent. And so, probably about five or six years ago, we instituted more of a program series that aligned with the themes that I shared earlier. And so, some of them are direct correlations. So, for example the Activist Lab, that meets our theme of advocacy and activism, it's an exploration of different ways in which students or participants can see who, what activists, who they were, what were their causes, how did they approach creating social change. Protest is absolutely an integral part of it, but it's not the only way that I think, um, students oftentimes think may be the only way. And so really helping to explore the different avenues of creating social changes is what we do within the Activist Lab. The other one we do as far as retention is called Academe & Me, it used to be called Tukwut Talks: Conversations with Faculty. But it was really about how to create programs that allow students to develop relationships with faculty members, recognizing that they were students themselves at one point, had highs and lows. And you know, and really humanize, I think for lack of a better word, because I think students oftentimes, either if they don't have a question or unsure about having a conversation with their faculty member, they don't. They--what do we talk about kind of a thing, right? And so they often put 'em on this sort of pedestal. And so inviting faculty--and even now we have grad students come in and participate--but let them know that it's okay that they have, they're just like anyone else. Maybe even learning about a particular subject of study that perhaps they didn't even know was something they could study. So that particular--Academe & Me is really about helping to hopefully create a pipeline of students to go into the professorate or into academia. Again, developing relationships with them and so, that's part of how we hopefully can retain our students. One final thing that we do, well two others I'll speak to. One is Critical Cougars: Unlearn. Relearn. And so that really aligns with the notion of how do we explore those different identities? And in the critical engagements and this around across social identity groups. It's kind of our largest sort of bucket, ‘cause anything can be sort of put in that particular bucket, but it's really about how do we unlearn maybe things that we learned in high school, how do we relearn or even learn for the first time things that we weren't taught necessarily, depending on where we went. And how do we evolve and continue to change and challenge ourselves critically in the thinking that we have. And so that's what that sort of program does. And then finally, I'll speak to something--my identity is, and I didn't, I spoke part of it a little bit earlier when I introduced myself, but my parents are from Taiwan, so I identify as Asian American, specifically Chinese American. And so, currently at Cal State San Marcos, there isn't a physical building, or a center Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 5 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 dedicated to Asian Pacific Islander Desi American students. So with that vacuum, I said you know, the Cross-Cultural Center and oftentimes a Multicultural Center has served in that sort of capacity; where the space is there but the other, like the LGBTQIA or the Women's Center, this Cross-Cultural Center in other, not necessarily here but in other spaces, they've been--they came from that space. And then once they had a critical mass or felt the need, they were established. So in the same vein, we don't have one currently. So because of that, and partly because of my own identity as that, we have a program called Defining Diaspora: Asian Pacific Islander Desi American Identities. Which essentially is just an exploration of that really large group of individuals and identities that fall under that sort of diaspora. And so, a lot of programming is, can be about a specific individual, a particular culture, a particular practice or tradition in those areas. And so that's kind of what Defining Diaspora is meant to do, is to really help to expose students of those identities, or those that aren't and wanting to learn more about to those types of cultures and traditions that are part of that. So those are kind of the programs we do. Underlying all that is really a focus on social justice work. And so, things that my predecessors started, my immediate predecessor, Sarah (Sheikh) started was the Social Justice Summit, which is kind of a three-day, two-night retreat. Which really allows a small group of about forty students the opportunity to explore their personal identities, better understand what social justice, that term, ‘cause I think we throw it out a lot of times. We want, you know environmental justice, this kind of justice. And so, what does it really mean when we talk about social justice? Having an understanding of the dynamics of either oppression or privilege, and really exploring what those concepts are. And then, we hope, and it's you know it's not always perfect, but it's that third day is then a focus as we return or plan or prepare ourselves to come back to campus. How do we become allies or co-conspirators, or how can we better support those communities or identities we may not necessarily have ourselves? And so, that has been something that's gone on for a while, again that predated me, and we've just kind of expanded and grown that. So, now we have in addition to the summit, which has been on hiatus because of COVID but we hope to bring it back this fall, the Symposium which is kind of more of a conference style. And that sprang out of an understanding that even, again, I'm a big proponent of tradition or just what legacies have been left behind. There were you know, faculty and stu-- staff that really wanted to take an opportunity for the campus to explore what social justice means in a conference sort of setting. So whether it's workshops, presentations. So that kind of has evolved into our Social Justice Symposium. And then when COVID hit, we couldn't do either one of those. And so we, my GA, graduate assistant at the time Daniela (Carreon) we, in discussions, we wanted to start a scholars program. And so, it's kind of a little bit of the summit. It's not the overnight, because it's kind of a class setting or curriculum. It's over the course of a couple weeks. Similarly, not a very big class, but very intimate for folks who want to be able to learn about these things and be scholars. And so the hope is that they're all connected in some way. Scholars can help in presenting at Symposium, Scholars can also be some of the mentors at the Summit and retreat. And so that's another area that we focus on in the Cross-Cultural Center, in collaboration now with the other centers, Student Life Centers that exist here on campus. Meyer: In what ways do you think, has your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center helped you expand and develop as a person and as a professional? I know you've touched a little bit (overlapping dialogue) butLai: Yeah. Yeah. No, you know, the work I do, I would say absolutely students are at the heart of the work that we do. And so, as students have evolved and changed in their challenges and their perspectives have evolved, I in similar fashion, I think have learned from that as well. And so--it's not, I Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 6 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 say this to students all the time: it's not about saying, “Oh I took this workshop. Check, I'm done with diversity, or I'm done with this topic.” It's an ongoing, you know, lifelong pursuit of recognizing and interacting with people that are maybe different from you. And everyone's gonna have a unique perspective or a unique--I mean there are similar, you know places or, you know people connect to. But everyone's different. And for that reason, I think I've evolved and developed a more nuanced approach in how to not only have the conversation around, um, diversity, equity, inclusion, even topics of social justice. I view my role oftentimes as the Director (of the Cross-Cultural Center) in how do we invite people to have those conversations? Even if they're difficult, even if they're challenging, even if they're divisive. Which I know is so hard to do, because why would I wanna sit across the table from someone who absolutely does not believe I should exist or doesn't agree in a lot of different ways. But I think it's through that process, that I've been able to kind of learn and grow as well on either approaches or ways in which we can kind of bring people to the table to have these types of conversations. It is my belief that I think, and I take that to heart because it's my own experience as I've better understood you know, the various isms, prejudices, biases and whatnot that I am a better person for it. And I'm more aware of situations and things that can be changed to enable folks to feel like they're included as part of that experience, whatever it may necessarily be. So, you know my father is an immigrant as part of his identity. He was also, he was born in 1940, and so he was prior to the polio vaccine. So, he has a disability in the sense that he at the time had a brace, and now it, now he's in a wheelchair. But that allowed me to recognize, I mean, we got so many stairs here at Cal State San Marcos, sometimes it's hard to know where people have accessibility and things like that. But so that's something I you know, I grew up with and I recognized, so I thought, “Oh yeah, I know about disabilities. I get it.” And then more recently at a conference I attended, and this is COVID was still happening, we had the stickers that said, “Hey, if it's green, we can hug each other. If it's yellow, you know, maybe like elbows or whatever. And if it's red, no, I want to stay six feet away,” kind of thing. And so, I was part of a registration group, and I share this in the workshops that I do with students, but I said, “Okay, great. We're done, right? We just gotta do the stickers.” And a colleague of mine said, “Well, wait, what if they're colorblind? How would they know which color to pick?” Never occurred to me, because I'm not colorblind. So, we eventually found a solution. We wrote down, you know, R, Y, and G, so folks could at least see what was written there, regardless of the color. But it's those things, those interactions. And I realized that, you know, it's not until you're either confronted with something or maybe you say something you (laughs) you know, you probably shouldn't have said that you realize or better understand sort of the experience. And so, my hope in the work that I do with the Cross-Cultural Center and the experiences that I've gained, I've learned every, every time I've had an interaction, how I can better hopefully have a future interaction or things that I need to work on myself a little bit more in recognizing. And so it's an iterative process. And so, I think that's been something that I've been able to take away because of the fact that I work in a space like this. Versus a corporate you know, entity or things like that. But because of this, it gives me a really unique perspective on how our society functions and what things we can do to try and really be as inclusive as possible for all. Meyer: So as your time in your role as director, what are the greatest challenges that you believe the center has faced? I know the pandemic probably threw a wrench in everything. Lai: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big one, right? I think having to pivot within a couple weeks, I think the university did an amazing job. You know--it's hindsight now knowing some of the impacts. But I think in Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 7 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 the moment, having to do that, definitely that was one challenge, right? In having to deal now, I think with students who have to relearn what it's like to be in college, ‘cause they really didn't really get that experience or relearn what it means to learn even. Because I think those expectations have shifted and changed. I would say also in my time here, I mentioned a little bit earlier, there is I think more of a--I wouldn't even call it a critical view of, but critical in the sense of like something that is a critique. Less-It's very critical. I think a lot of folks are questioning things now related to--let me think. Oh, I'm trying to, it's blank. It's not coming to my mind right now, but just even the necessity for diversity, equity, and inclusion there are-- Oh, critical race theories, CRT, that's one. Which I think has somehow--education has always been I think viewed in ways, understandably, because tax-- Public education, I'll speak to because tax dollars go into it, and so how can we be most sufficient and effective and so forth. And I get that. But even, you know, things like affirmative action which is, we don't have in California, but even those concepts and ideas of how do we outreach to underserved or underrepresented populations. Those things that I think were differences of opinion or approach with regard to policy has taken a very dark turn in the sense that it's very personal in a lot of ways. And I know and I'm not--I again, I was an engineer(ing major), so I didn't take any sociology or gender equity studies classes. But I think it may be second wave feminism but this, the personal is political, is a truism that I think is in a lot of ways where a lot of the policies and things that are being done are directly targeting certain groups. And so the challenge for me, and I've wondered this as well because I've seen states now, right? And their legislatures look at different ways and approaches, such that for example with regard to students that may go to university in Florida, are getting a very different experience when it comes to interacting or working (with) others. Partly because of what they can't necessarily discuss or talk about. I have colleagues, and I'm sure I think I heard from others that Offices of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion had to rename themselves because they were illegal now to be in some of those spaces. So I've seen that shift in the sense that I think I'm gonna be, I--my goal as an educator is to really help the up-and-coming generational students think differently or to be prepared for the work that they do. Now, it's gonna be compounded by the fact that based on your geography or location or where you go to school, you're gonna have a very different experience of things that you've been able to experience as a student. We often say that going to college is kind of a mini version of real life, but here you can make mistakes and the consequences aren't necessarily like, you know, a lot of times we try to find the developmental approach within Student Affairs. How do we do this differently? How do we, you know, it's meant to be a growing opportunity that oftentimes you don't get when you're out in quote unquote the real world. Things just kind of happen and you--that the consequences are what they are. So, my fear is that oftentimes now, if my goal is to have students be able to understand and interact with someone who has no idea or hasn't necessarily had these same experiences or similar types of experiences, doesn't have to be the same--what's that gonna mean then for our society as a whole? Right? Because again, depending on your geography or where you go to school, you're in a very different kind of educational experience compared to someone else who does. I think that where information comes from, there are some benefits with social media and other things where it has democratized and allowed multiple--even filming things, catching things that, police brutality and things like that. So a very democratized, but now the source of where things are and having some level of information literacy and recognizing where it's (media) coming from it, what's the purpose of what it is, and where's the quote unquote truth and where do you suss it out, is another challenge I think that I'm seeing as well in the work that we do. And trying to, we used to start with the same set of facts, and Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 8 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 now the question is, “Are we still in, are we talking about the same set of facts or not?” (laughs) And so there's again, some of that that I think sort of needs to happen. And so I see that play out in the work that we do because, you know I may start with like, “Hey, so this has been the experience,” and someone might say, “No, that's not.” And so then I want to learn more about where that is. But it's not necessarily always productive, I guess. And so that's where I see some of the of the challenges in the work that we're doing with these types of spaces, Cross-Cultural Centers or Multicultural Centers. Meyer: It's the politicization of something that shouldn't be. Yeah. Lai: Yeah. In a lot of ways. I mean, I could say this, you know, this notion of public health and how politicized even with regard to COVID, right? The notion of--and some of this is cultural you know it's natural for me to think in terms of the collective, because that's you know in Asian cultures broadly speaking there's a collectivist sort of mentality in how that's supported. America has a very individualistic streak, which is you know it's not a bad thing. I think where the challenge comes in is where does one's, where is one's freedom impinged upon and where it's not? And that's been debated for a long time with free speech and lots of other things, but it has been politicized even in areas like public health to a lot of degrees. And so that's, yeah. So those, they're not new challenges per se, but there are new approaches to how do we have these types of conversations, or how do we help educate and teach about these things in a way that hopefully is broadening and enlightening. So. Meyer: So what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexist with the expansion of identity specific spaces like the Black Student Center and the Latin@/x Center? Lai: Yeah, that's a great question and one that I wrestle with because I don't know if I necessarily have an answer myself. You know, I started at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC (University of California) Irvine which is one of the first centers, and this is the history that was drilled into me. Second only at the time at the UC system to a University of Washington, at a time when I think resources were scarce. And so, it made sense to start from a collective cross-cultural sort of center and space. And I would say even for, depending on where whatever campus you're on, either resources were tied or made sense that collectively these were cross-cultural or multicultural spaces. They weren't enough, you know. We have students, understandably within the Black communities, BIPOC, so Black, Indigenous, People of Color communities who said, you know, “Okay, this is a good start, but it's not meeting the needs that we have.” And so that's why these spaces then, you know, like a Black Student Center or other spaces have kind of evolved. The question then becomes: well where does then, once these things have evolved and come out of necessarily this space, what then becomes the role of this space where it started and how does it evolve and change? And that's what I've been wrestling with myself because--and I'm not the only one. University, UCSD, San Diego, they started with the Cross-Cultural Center and now they've got a Black Student Center, Indigenous Center, and all these other additional spaces. And so, it's been trying to figure out, besides programmatically, besides the history months or the heritage months, what are the ways in which they can interact one with another? And so, it's gonna be different on each campus. But I think the conclusion for me has been, you know, the Cross-Cultural Center is essential, especially if there's a belief and understanding, which a lot of my colleagues have, about the notion of intersectionality. We're more than just one-dimensional pieces. I'm, you know, I'm Chinese, but I'm also American. Identify as a cisgendered male. All of those things play with one another in the experiences that I have and/or the choices and decisions that I make. And in the same vein I think, there's always Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 9 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 gonna be a place for a cross-cultural center or multicultural center, because these unique and specific spaces are serving a purpose. They're helping Black students getting the support they need because they either, whether it's cultural validation, whether it's just being with someone who doesn't question (laughs) why you're there. Or isn't peppering you with questions about something they may not be familiar with, which, you know, naturally happens. “Oh, what about this? Why do you eat this food? What's that?” You know, those types of things. And I think in most situations it'd be great, but there is an instance where I think there's fatigue in having to explain yourself all the time or, and so sometimes it's nice to just be, when you go into a space. Which I can see there's why there are certain spaces, whether it's the Latin@/x Center and so forth. So, I think some of it depends on the landscape of the campus of where a particular space may be at. Here, on our campus, for a long, long time, we just had the Cross-Cultural Center, which is the first one, and it wasn't necessarily born out of protest. Students didn't demand it, it was just, as I understand the history, administrators had said, “You know, we want to be prepared for the 21st century student here in North County.” And so, we think this is important. So we, you know, create this space. Soon thereafter, I want to say it was the Pride Center, and then, or maybe the other way around, the Women's Center and then a Pride Center that, you know, were under student government, ASI, at the time. So those were the three centers for a long time. And then, you know Latinx students said, “We need a space. We're over fifty percent of the population, where our needs are not being met.” You know, and I for a long time, and I and because this is (laughs), I think I had a hard time sort of separating myself and not viewing it as a failure on my part, you know. And students would say, “Oh, it's not you, it's not you. We just need this space.” And I couldn't quite understand, “Well, I know you're saying it's not me, but what could I do to help support this population that we're not doing now?” And so, that was what was going on in my mind. And it took me a couple of well, it took a co--one person in particular and other colleagues to say, “You know, don't get caught up in that.” And eventually I was okay, right? Like, it makes sense that there are more of these spaces because that just provides additional support and resources for these communities. So, that should not be the issue, and you shouldn't get caught up in that. But, you know, it's hard and it--your pride takes a little bit of a hit when you're like: well, what am I not doing that is, that you need a separate space to occur? You know, in that same vein, and eventually there'll be most likely well, I know that the President (of CSUSM, Ellen Neufeldt) has agreed to an Asian Pacific Islander (and Desi American; APIDA) space here at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the programming that you know, is near and dear to me, doesn't mean I can't do it but, you know, instead of redundant programs, it'll probably go to a future APIDA center. And so, it's figuring out, I think what that role is. And I wish I could say I had a great answer, but I do--I think what I've resolved myself to, or resigned myself to understand--that's probably not the way right way to say it, but is that there will always, I think, be a place for a Cross-Cultural Center or Multicultural Center space. What we do in that is gonna vary. And I've had to adjust. So that's the themes that I shared earlier. And the purpose of, in our mission and how we kind of structure what we do is intentional because it avoids or tries not to step on sort of the toes of the other centers and spaces, right? They have their own things that they do and they support the students. We all have different lenses through which we try to do the same work. And so, my role I think, as a Cross-Cultural Center is how do we build community? How do we bring these spaces together? And being more of a connector is something I've kind of started to better understand as far as what I think this, the role of future cross-cultural center or multicultural center spaces that maybe Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 10 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 dealing with this might be is, is how do we connect these communities and keep them together in some way. And continue to find those gaps, those spaces where students may not-- An example is what if I'm multicultural or multiracial? I don't feel like I belong in the Black Student Center, or I don't feel like I belong in the Latin@/x Center if I'm both Black and Mexican. And so, I think that's where a space like the Cross-Cultural Center or a multicultural center could still serve as a purpose in exploring those identities, helping them to navigate the complexities of what that entails; as well as their gender, sexual orientation, all of that in helping them to decide that. So, I think that's what I've come to understand. But the--you know, the verdict's still out on what the (laughs) what that is, and our students keep changing. So, you know, there could be other things that we need to address and figure out as we move further along. But my hope ultimately is that whatever it is, that it'll still continue to serve the needs of the students that are coming to our university and to the institutions that they are applying to. Meyer: What direction do you think the CCC should grow in from here? Lai: Yeah. If I had my (laughs)-Meyer: If you had your, if you had your dreams. Lai: Of course. You know I think I would love to, and we're kind of moving in this direction, I would love to figure out better ways to support students financially. Whether it's through scholarships or other things. We are as part of I think this project as well, we're celebrating our 20th anniversary. Which you know, we're still pretty young. We're still kind of just getting out of our teen years, right? Into our twenties. But it's a great milestone I think, with regard to being here on this campus. And so, I think financially looking at ways in which we can support our students. I would love to expand our staff as well. I think-- t's funny, I've been the longest serving director, but I've also been a staff of one. And so, in some ways I wonder if I've, if I'd been successful, if there would've been more, other staff members a part of it. But I would love to see more staff members, because I think there just isn't you know-students' needs are getting more and more complex that require more time, and there's only one of me and I'd like to see other staff come in and be able to assist the students that are here, that may need that support. I think there are other areas that we can explore as well when it comes to, you know, we have a Disability Student Services, but their focus really is on providing the support for students to be successful. Not necessarily doing programming to help folks understand what those (services) are and how we can make the--make some changes or differences. People that are neurodivergent, there's just a lot of different areas and identities that haven't necessarily been explored. But I think those would be opportunities for a Cross-Cultural Center to kind of be able to provide space or to provide programming that can help other students understand not necessarily what it's like, but better understand those conditions and/or maybe consider different ways of thinking about how they, when they have the opportunity or are placed in a position where they can make a difference, that they're hopefully considering and thinking about those areas that they themselves perhaps are privileged in. Where they don't have to worry about or they don't have to think about it in any way. And so that level of work, I think in programming and approaching and supporting those communities, I think is other areas where we can see the Cross-Cultural Center sort of grow. I think there's the conversation about the divisiveness in politics in other ways that, you know, a big part of what I'm doing now and hopefully will continue to do, has been working with the Civility Campaign (program by the CSUSM Dean of Students) on our campus. They kind of, when I first started here at Cal State San Marcos, Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 11 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 the, at the time, this campaign started around the same time, so I've been connected to it for a long time. But I've seen the significance and importance of how do we have dialogue and conversation-particularly with someone who may just be of a completely different belief system--but hopefully still get nuggets of wisdom or at least try to understand one another. A lot of, I don't want to make or simplify to say if we just saw you know, held hands kumbaya, that it was gonna be that easy. I don't think it's that easy, but I think that is the work that is necessary for students, particularly at a time when perhaps they've come from very homogeneous communities or they just have never been introduced to someone. To be able to find ways in which those kinds of opportunities can help them to grow and be eventually a better graduate of Cal State San Marcos, because they've had experiences or programs that have introduced them to these types of things that they haven't necessarily done before. So, I think long-term those are some things I'm hoping that the Cross-Cultural Center can play an active role in supporting or perhaps being a big part of really proactively engaging our students in a way that again, makes those students that graduate from Cal State San Marcos really the premier students here in North County. And who go on to become leaders and folks that are making these decisions in the community. Meyer: I'm sure you have a lot, but could you share a few of your favorite memories from your time at the Cross-Cultural Center? Lai: Yeah. You know, it's hard to think about. I mean, there's so many different ones. I think I value the different student leaders that have worked with me. From the very first time, when we called them peer educators at the time. Because I'm a staff of one, I rely heavily on my student staff to really help in getting a lot of the work and the mission of the center done. And so, some of my fondest memories are those different folks that have worked alongside me. Getting to know them, getting to hear about their experiences here on campus. Now seeing them graduate as alumni and really kind of, you know, off in the world and kind of doing some amazing things. I, in Higher Ed you know, I recall after my fifth year that was the first year that I had a student that I knew was a freshman or a first-year student that I saw all the way through and graduate. You know, I've had other students that graduated along the way, but the--that was the first group that I knew from the first time they stepped foot into campus all the way through till they graduated, even transfer students as well. And so, that's one I think fond memory. I love the staff that, I love the staff that I work with now, but also even before when I was part of Student Life and Leadership, Dilcie Perez (formerly in charge of Student Life and Leadership) was my supervisor. And I think she instilled a lot of laughter and like just fun stuff in the work that was oftentimes can be hard and challenging. And so, those are some fond memories. We have a unique tradition here at Cal State San Marcos around Halloween, where a lot of folks dress up, in--within Student Affairs I should say. (laughs) But it's a big deal, and I don't think I fully realized it until I first came to this campus and experienced it for the first time. But some of the different traditions and things like that have been fun and interesting to see. I--commencement is always a fun time where a lot of the memories that I have that I can recollect. When I have had the chance, a lot of us volunteer and help support the program. So, being able to see them (students) cross the stage, see their families and watch them witness their students cross the stage. And again, a lot of them are first generation, first in their families (to graduate college) and the joy and the excitement that they see, those are some memories that I'll definitely keep for a long time. Because I think that is what grounds me. And I know a lot of my colleagues say this, but commencement Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 12 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 is kind of, it--the students, yes. But also seeing them achieve and be able to get to that point. And the excitement is also refreshing and kind of a reminder of the work and why we do it. So, when we deal with policy issues or just challenges with bureaucracy of the university, it's always nice to remember those moments because then it reminds at least me of what and why I do the work that I do, and why it's so critical and important. Or at least I would like to think that it's a big part of their experience that they have here at Cal State San Marcos. Meyer: Well, thank you so much, Floyd. You've been a pleasure to interview and yeah, thank you so much. Lai: Thank you. Thanks for taking the time. Meyer: All right. That was great. (laughs). Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 13 2024-02 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lai, Floyd. Interview transcript, April 10, 2023. Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai served as Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University from 2011 to 2023. In this Interview, Floyd discusses the growth and development of the CCC in conjunction with other student organizations. As a self-identified Chinese American, Lai addresses how his personal, educational, and professional background have informed one another. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-10 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Civil rights Education, Higher Human rights Racism -- California -- Irvine Student Success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en " target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_Transcript Activists and activism Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e6e8a1a710f12916198b024ac063e270.pdf 7c322713ce91543e8e7a18642d09ec22 PDF Text Text LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Ayana Ford: So, today is Monday, April 19th, 2021, at 1:02 p.m. I am Ayana Ford, a student at San Marcos and today I’m interviewing Floyd Lai for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between CSUSM Black Student Center and the CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Mr. Lai, thank you for being here with me today. Floyd Lai: Pleasure. Thank you, Ayana. Ford: I’d like to start by talking about your childhood a little bit. When and where were you born? Lai: I was born on the island of Oahu in Kahuku in Hawaii, and that was in 1974. Ford: Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Lai: Sure. My parents are immigrants, originally from Taiwan. I am the oldest of three sons, three boys. We moved around. My parents initially settled in Hawaii, and then we moved to Idaho, and then eventually to southern California by the time I was six. I have lived in California since about 1980, so pretty much consider myself a native in the sense of being in southern California for the majority of my lifetime. And I would say it was a pretty ordinary, I guess, childhood in the sense that, again, being the oldest of three boys, there were obviously some cultural components in the roles and responsibilities of what that entailed, being the eldest. I also had responsibility over my two younger brothers as well, just with regard to how we were growing up, and it was pretty common as far as an immigrant experience, keeping in mind both of my parents worked. And I think, at an early age, I—there’s a term that was called, not necessarily pejorative but it was a latch key kid. So, I had a key around my neck so that when I would walk home from school, I’d be able to get inside the house, and pretty much had responsibility for my brothers from an early age as well. Ford: I know that. I’m the youngest, so— [both laugh] So, how did that help you come to an understanding of your culture at all? How did your childhood help you come to understand your culture? Lai: Yeah. You know, I would say it was a part of my upbringing in the sense that it guided and dictated—and it was just par for the course, meaning that outside of any influence or education about some of the histories that we learn about at school, it was just part of my upbringing, right? So, being from a Chinese immigrant family, eating Chinese food, right? [chuckles] Everything was just taken as something that was innate and part of the way in which I was raised. I would say that the first instance that I recognized or noticed that perhaps I was different from others was probably not until my middle school years, in the sense that I think first through sixth in elementary school, the community in which I grew up—I grew up in Rowland Heights, California, which is in Los Angeles County. At the time, it was relatively pretty diverse, but I think the friends that I had were of different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different races. And as time progressed and if you were to go back to that community now, there has been a huge influx of immigration, particularly from China and Taiwan because of institutions, like there’s a large Buddhist temple in the adjoining city in Hacienda Heights, and we’ve seen some of the demographic shifts and changes. So, growing up in middle school was probably where I started noticing and gravitating towards individuals who were much like myself, who were also of Asian background or identity or descent. I was on the seventh grade, eighth grade basketball team. And Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 so, I would say that probably was my first introduction to other races, like Black individuals or Mexicans or Latinos at the time. But I didn’t necessarily have a good understanding of the differences when it came to race and ethnicity until very much later, probably not until I graduated from high school and got into college and started taking classes and/or having discussions about that. Ford: So, to follow up on that, during your childhood and adolescence, were you taught about Black history and the Black community? Lai: You know, the extent of that probably was Martin Luther King, Jr., right?; Black History month, limited to just the month of February. My earliest recollection—I think I may have done research on George Washington Carver, right? Learning about, I think it was peanut butter or a lot of, I think, the stories and notions of Black history that was primarily in our history books, right? And it was all the positive portrayals, right, or images of things and people, right? Obviously, since then and more recently with different projects like, I’m blanking. Is it the 1692 Project or things that are in the media now that talk about slavery and other things, right? My recollection of that when I was in elementary, middle, or even high school was maybe a short chapter, if that, on slavery and the Civil War, but never necessarily through a Black lens or a portrayal beyond just the significant notables like Martin Luther King, Jr., maybe some musicians, Louis Armstrong, things that we would hear about or note, but there was never an extended conversation about that. I played basketball, as I mentioned, in seventh and eighth grades. So, I knew Black students or teammates of mine. We didn’t necessarily hang out. We just played our basketball games and whatnot. But that was really the extent of it. So, we played basketball on the same team, but then beyond that, our circles didn’t necessarily overlap, one with another. Ford: So, after you came to San Marcos, how did that change? Prior to your coming here to San Marcos. Lai: Yeah. Coming to San Marcos as a staff member, I’ve had more—I’ve been out here at Cal State San Marcos for the last ten years. Prior to that, I worked at UC Irvine for about six years. And then, even before that, I graduated in 2000 from undergraduate, UC Irvine as well. That’s where I did my undergraduate program in environmental engineering. So, I was on a track or trajectory to go into engineering, in the engineering field. My first notion, I think in a broader sense, was in my undergraduate experience at UC Irvine. Well, so from a personal experience as an Asian American, Chinese American man, I have shared this story with others when I do workshops and presentations. But my first introduction to a personal impact was—I forget the year. I want to say 1995 or ‘6, per se. I was the recipient, on the receiving end at the time, of a hate incident through email. So, myself and others, back in the day—this is when the internet was still [laughs] kind of coming out—you had to go to a lab to jump on and connect. And there were localized areas and whatnot. But I received an email essentially saying, “I’m going to kill all you eff’in Asians. You ruin the curve,” things like that, that really started me on a trajectory and path to really be more reflective about my own personal identity as a Chinese, Asian American man. You know, “I just got this. What is this? Not sure,” you know. Come to find out later on, it was a student who obviously felt the need or desire to broadcast this message, this hateful message, to whomever was in the lab at the time. And the way he identified folks was if Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 they had an Asian sort of sounding last name. And those that were there, myself included, were the lucky recipients of that. So, that started me on a trajectory, just kind of where I am today. I mean I think that would be a critical, pivotal point in the work that I do within multicultural affairs, and doing the work that I do in the Cross-Cultural Center. It was a personal moment where I started thinking why was I the recipient? What caused this, right? To think about issues in terms of race. And it’s through that soul searching and connections to the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine that I got involved. Then I said I wanted to explore that a little bit more. I was involved in various clubs. I was part of the Hawaii club. I’m not myself native Hawaiian, but it was something. I was born there, and it was something that I gravitated towards. And it was through those interactions that I started getting involved and going to programming with the Cross-Cultural Center at that space and Center, which I eventually got to work at prior to coming here to Cal State San Marcos, when I worked there for about six years. I got introduced to the Black Student Union, right? MECHA which is a student organization that often helps to—We call them umbrella organizations. They are the political, social wing of the experiences at UC Irvine at the time: Asian Pacific Student Association; again, these larger groupings. And so, I worked at the Center as a volunteer initially, then as an intern, and then I was involved in a program called REACH. They’ve changed their name since, but it was called Reaffirming Ethnic Awareness, Community, Harmony. So, I learned about workshops. I got really deeply involved in understanding, for example, the different experiences within the various communities, whether it was the Asian community, the Black community, the LatinX community—LatinX wasn’t a term at the time, right—so, the Latino community, and the different sort of experiences. I would say also during that time at UC Irvine was the first time I took an Asian—So, I was an engineer. So, that was my trajectory and pathway. It’s very fixed. You can’t deviate too much, right? Ford: Yeah. Lai: You know, you’ve got your sciences classes. You’ve got your engineering classes. But, on occasion, I had the ability to take some of electives. And so, one of the electives I chose was an Asian American Studies class which was helpful for me, as well, as I was just trying to get into and understanding of some of those issues and areas. So, between my experience at the CrossCultural Center at UC Irvine, some of the classes I was able to take, the interactions that I had, obviously hanging out at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine, I got to meet the leaders of the Black Student Union from the American Indian Student Association. These were folks that I was able to run in circles or I would see on a regular basis. They had retreats and other opportunities for student leadership exposure. And so, that’s where I was able to expand and grow my experience. And at the time I wasn’t sure if I was going into the field of higher education that I am in now. It was just something that was supplementary to understanding some of those things at that time in my own personal development, of my own identity, and in relation to other people. Ford: So, as you mentioned before, you had talked a little bit about how the different movements were. How has Black social justice and activism such as Civil Rights Movement, Feminism, and Black Lives Matter Movement affected you? Lai: Yeah. I would say that’s a more recent, and I would say it’s an ongoing, evolutionary progression for me, right? Let me start more recently and maybe work backward. I would say this past summer, last summer, with George Floyd—And, again, he was not the first and nor was Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 he the last, as we’ve seen more recently with the continued impacts of anti-Black racism occurring. I would say, however though, that that coupled with the pandemic and other things, right, I think galvanized. And we saw our country and nation as a whole get to a turning point, right? And so, that’s something that I would say is the strong notion of anti-racism, of anti-Black racism particularly, and how it’s situated within the context of my understanding of racism and discrimination broadly, was really galvanized there. The Black Lives Matter Movement I know occurred a couple of years earlier, right, with Ferguson and some of those things. So, there has been a steady, I think, beat in my own personal understanding in history of the Black experience and where I fit and situate, right? I often felt as if I was a bystander to some degree, someone who’s looking outside looking in and trying to understand but, obviously, not recognizing those experiences personally. And there’s a certain level of privilege in that too, right? So, because I’m not Black and I don’t have to go through some of those things, I have the luxury of not having to worry about those things, right? So, yes, it’s horrible. Yes, it’s awful. And I felt a lot of empathy for situations and crises like this. And why does this continue to occur? But I would say that, going back to George Floyd, that was a pivotal point in my own personal experience in recognizing—one, because I mean my first name is Floyd, so it was weird hearing so-and-so was on the neck of Floyd. And so, there was this kind of weird connection as well, because his last name just happens to be my first name. And so, there was almost this personal connection now because I would see Floyd in narratives and things like that about the experiences with police. And so, it was very personalizing in that way. So, I think that, and then going back to Black Lives Matter, I would say my background and trajectory and pathway, especially in this field of social justice work, I was never—compared to probably some of my colleagues—I was never a super activist, right? I wasn’t out there chanting or demonstrating. There were a few times I was part of marches or walks, but nothing that felt very heavily involved. Part of the reason why is because I think, also personally, my purpose was I’m going to get an engineering degree. This is all nice but that’s not my focus. And then, as I came to my own sort of personal consciousness and awakening myself, I started to see how education could be an opportunity to better understand. And I felt like I could have an impact on things as well, right? Personally, and professionally, in a lot of ways. So, going back to your initial question, I think those experiences have continued to evolve for me. I think there are better nuances in the sense—or better is not the right word. I have more nuance in understanding that experience and how I fit into that, right? This last summer, there is more of a commitment. Now, anytime we make a commitment or a desire to change, we always have to check ourselves to see if we’re still in that same frame of mind. But I have a stronger commitment to trying to dismantle anti-Blackness and try to dismantle racist notions. And even more so now, going back to my identity as an Asian American, in what ways does my own culture and my own upbringing, does my own lens, as an Asian American, help to contribute to some of that, right? I was having a conversation with some colleagues of mine and thinking back, when I was younger, going back to that kind of thing, there was this rule about who I was able to date. Right? Who would be acceptable to date? So, obviously, my parents are Chinese. So, if you can find someone, and I identify as heterosexual, so if you find a nice Chinese girl, right, that’s at the top of the list, if you can find someone that you want to date. And at the bottom of the list, right, was someone who was more darkcomplected or Black, right? That was not in my wheelhouse or realm. And so, a lot of that sentiment that seemingly is innocuous—I mean, my parents are immigrants and so this notion, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 right, coming from Taiwan where there’s not a lot of people of color, right? They’re mostly Chinese or indigenous individuals but there were still notions of colorism, right? The darker the skin, don’t be out in the sun too much because not only is it bad for you but also you don’t want to be too dark-complected. So, a lot of those things that I took, I viewed different then, I look at now in the lens of how that can contribute to notions of anti-Blackness, right, and what that role looks like. And then, I’m a father of two young girls. And so, what is now my role as someone who can influence, particularly those in my own family, what those thoughts and ideas look like? How do I have and hold conversations with my children and social media, everything. Compared to when I was younger, you had to read the newspaper, watch television. There were only three news channels, right? Cable was satellite media, as I was getting a little bit older. So, there were only so many sources of news. Now, there are so many places where you can get information. And so, how do I structure those conversations or perhaps take opportunities to have conversations with them about these diverse issues, racially, or around sexual orientation, around gender, right? And I’ve been surprised. I mean, a lot of them have been reading books that have exposed them to a lot of concepts that I probably wouldn’t have been reading prior, because the authors weren’t writing about those topics, right, about gender fluidity or any of those things. They’re much more comfortable in using that language than I was at their age, at that time. I don’t know if I answered your question? It’s kind of long-winded. But those are just, I mean, just some initial thoughts about some of those movements and around social justice in general. Ford: Mm-hmm. You answered the question perfectly. Thank you. [chuckles] Lai: Okay. Ford: So, what role did you play in the creation of the Black Student Center? Lai: Yeah. Other than perhaps a cheerleading role on the sidelines—So, I’ll give you a little bit of history, just also for the purposes of this recording. You know, the Cross-Cultural Center is— not was, but is the first established now what’s called the Student Life Center. So, we were established in 2003. So, at the time, with no other Centers or spaces, we kind of had to do everything. And again, this wasn’t me. It was my predecessors, right? And so, once the CrossCultural Center—I think soon thereafter it was the Women’s Center, now currently called the Gender Equity Center, Pride Center. And then there was a huge gap, and probably within the last 5-7 years, the LatinX Center, and then most recently, the Black Student Center. So, my role has been as sort of a cheerleader of it. We had a student who worked as student staff. Her name is Chanel Bradley. She’s an alum of Cal State San Marcos. She revived the Black Student Union, BSU, during her time here. And she worked with Robert Aiello-Hauser who is the director of the LGBTQA Pride Center in a lot of those things. At the time, there were just the three: the Women’s Center, the Cross-Cultural Center, and the LGBTQA Pride Center. So, when I came in 2011, we overlapped. Chanel was I think in her second to last or last year, right? So, she was involved in developing. And since there wasn’t a Black Student Center at the time, I was sort of the support mechanism, right, along with some of the other Centers in providing support for the Black students. So, we played roles in supporting them programmatically, trying to work with them. If you were to come in person to the Cross-Cultural Center, I helped to develop things like, at the time when it was called Black History month, now it’s called Black Excellence month, but Black History month. And in my early couple of years being on campus, I was focused on how Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 do we create space to celebrate or to discuss and talk about these issues. [starts to adjust his chair. Both laugh.] I’m sorry. My chair keeps sinking and I’m not doing anything, and so I keep having to adjust. So, my role was really more advisory, if that. Trying to play a support role. Trying to support our students. This is even before the establishment or the creation of a Black Student Center. I would say, then, after that, I still continued to have relationships supporting the Black Student Union. At the time, the Cross-Cultural Center was a subset of what was known then as the Student Life and Leadership or SLL. And SLL, now called the Student Leadership and Evolvement Center or SLEC, was in charge of student organizations. So, I as the CrossCultural Center, had responsibility over some of the student cultural organizations, of which BSU was one. And so, that was where my relationship continued to build with them, trying to support them, do leadership, trying to support the students who were a part of that. Around that time, as the LatinX Center got some momentum and eventually was established, right, there were students in the Black Student Union who said, “Hey.” The argument one could say is, for the LatinX Center, the population at campus was almost 50%—it was pretty high—that identified as Hispanic or LatinX or Latino. And so, there was a need for resources and support. On the other side of the spectrum, and this is not to take away from Native American or American Indian students, Indigenous students, the second lowest were Black students, I think hovering around 23%. And so, students at the time had expressed an interest and desire to say, “We need a space too because there’s not enough of us.” It was not so much because there’s so many, but it was a lack of visibility and a lack of resources to recruit. And I came to learn later on, it was an issue with some of the reputation of the area, right, whether or not it’s a welcoming and inviting space, whether or not there was a critical mass of faculty or staff so students would feel like, yes, I want to come to Cal State San Marcos. So, my role was very much tangential, was very much on the outsides trying to support it, recognizing that students needed additional resources and support in order to be able to provide them a space to congregate, a space to be able to discuss about issues that are specific to the Black community. BSU did that, right, to some degree. It just wasn’t necessarily as organized or had the resources and the staffing and the dedicated time that I think John, the current director John, is able to put forth in helping to support that community, right? And so, that’s the extent off my experience in relation to the creation and establishment of the Center. It was truly student developed and student driven. They organized and decided that they wanted to create a space. They were going to go and make a demand to the president, President Haynes at the time, and were strategic about when and how to demand or ask, right, [chuckles] strategically about the need for this. And I would say President Haynes, at the time, I think it—I wouldn’t say caught her off guard. I think it was very impactful because now she was on the spot and she could also challenge them and say, “Okay. What are the needs? Tell me what you need. Draft a proposal.” So, she put it right back to the students. And so, the students then went to work and they said, “Okay. This is what needs to happen.” And then, with support from faculty and staff, the Black Student Center was eventually established here at Cal State San Marcos. Ford: So, you helped support everyone. [chuckles] Lai: Yeah. Yeah. Ford: So, what did the student staff involved in the creation of the Black Student Center feel like they needed directly? I know you went into a little detail about it, but is there anything? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Lai: Yeah. I’m very aware and I’ve actually shared with student activists, I say I’m here to support but I’m also part of the institution. [laughs] So, I think they were savvy enough to know like okay, I can only share this much with Floyd. So, I don’t know all the details of the thing. What I recall though was some of the things that I shared with you, that there was a lack of visibility for Black students and therefore there was a sort of spiral effect because at least the argument at the time was if I don’t see people like myself or other Black students, why do I want to come here to Cal State San Marcos? There’s no place for me to feel like I belong. So, a sense of belonging was one. A sense of programming that was dedicated. I shared with you, prior to that, I put together a Black History Month event about being Black in America and we kind of cobbled together some programming that would talk about those issues. But I wasn’t Black, right? So, I relied heavily on Black faculty or staff or even the students, to come up with ideas and concepts that could speak to that experience. But again, I was from an outsider view. I’m not Black and I don’t have that experience so I can’t speak to it. And, probably, this is just my take on it, there’s not a sense of authenticity or even—credibility is not the right word, but just authority as a Black individual to say this is what we need. I was kind of like “Hey. How can we help put this together programmatically so that there’s some visibility.” But I wasn’t—again, not being Black myself. So, I think that was another piece, seeing some additional programming that spoke to the community as opposed to from an outsider lens trying to see and fill a void that was there. I think there was also a desire for just a space. I mean, I think that’s where it always stems from. And I’m very cautious too, because I think any time you advocate for a Center or a space, if your only argument is we need a space, okay, well what’s that space supposed to do? Because there is strength, obviously, in numbers. But you could hang out in the dining hall. You can hang out outside and carve out your own space. So, what is the need for a Center? And so, I think they wanted to look at resources, ways in which tied to student success, to graduation rates. So, those are some things that I think eventually made it into the initial proposal and/or if not part of the demands into the proposal. And, you know, I think students had a lot of support from faculty and staff, as far as hearing their concerns and then being able to articulate that in a way to eventually formulate the initial plans for the movement towards an establishment of the Black Student Center on campus. Ford: So, what did you think the university administration communicated was their vision for the Black Student Center? Lai: I think they communicated that there was a desire to have it. I don’t know if they necessarily dictated what it was going to be. In my experience, to some degree, I think that as an administrator you’re looking at every piece, right? Where is it going to be? I mean, just because the president of an institution or a university says “Yes, it’s going to happen” doesn’t mean all the answers are … [next few words unintelligible due to poor reception] Yes, it’s going to happen. Now figure out how it’s going to work. . . . I think there was a commitment or a desire to meet the students, what they’re wanting to have. And I’ll be the first to say I think students have a lot of power, more so than they often think, when it comes to political will and capital because—And not to say that just because you could do it, you should. But because there’s the desire there, they articulated a good reason for why there was a need for a Black Student Center that was compelling enough that I think that the institution said “Okay. We’re going to do that.” Right? And so, the commitment was yes, we’re dedicated to this. It’s one of our values. Now, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 whether or not and there’s going to be personalities and histories of whether or not you believe what the president is saying or doesn’t say or the rest of the administration, there was definitely a commitment though on the heels of a LatinX Center being established, that there was the need because these two populations, both the Brown and Black populations, had different systemic issues, right? Whether it was retention as I mentioned earlier, or student success when it came to graduation rates, there was a desire. And so, both of these Centers actually stemmed or started from a—and this gets too much into the nitty gritty, but they came up through Student Academic Support Services. And so, their focus was primarily on student success. Whereas for me, in the Cross-Cultural Center, Gender Equity Center, and Pride Center, we all came up through different ways. The Gender Equity and Pride Center or Women’s Center came up through Associated Students. And so, it was very much student driven, student funded, right? That was funding stream. The Cross-Cultural Center was established under Student Life, under this engagement in student activities, that kind of thing. And the Black Student Center, LatinX Center, came under Student Academic Support Services. Now, they all overlap in a lot of ways, but it was very targeted, right? When you think of Student Academic Support, you’re thinking testing materials, time management, skills that were necessary for student success. And so, I think those were some elements that there was a dedication to, right, by the institution, by the university. So, we want these spaces to fall under this area because we want to increase the student success of both Black communities as well as Latino communities. So, I think that was what was communicated and conveyed by the institution. The rest of the details were left up to the person in charge at the time, right, to develop and see through what that would look like. Currently—and I would say this is more recently—my current supervisor, the Associate Vice President of Student Life, Dr. Gail Cole-Avant—she came on probably around the same time, no, about a year or two after the Black Student Center. So, prior to that, we all reported to different people. And so, that also meant that there was different focus and different priorities for each of our spaces. And so, this reorganization with the Vice President of Student Affairs, Dr. Checa, to combine and create this new space where all the Centers were consolidated as a result of some external reviews was, I think, in a good way the university saying, “We need to do better. And this is our way to make sure that we are all aligned in moving forward,” because it kind of felt like we were going in three different directions, right, because ASI, Student Government, they have an agenda, a mission, a focus. My area around student leadership and student life is different. And then Black Student Center and the LatinX Center around student success and academics. So, they’re kind of different. They definitely overlap but they’re on different trajectories. By bringing them together, I think the institution is also saying that there’s a commitment to doing better, to moving towards success in aligning the resources, helping. We all support one another. We’re all staffs of one, to a certain degree. We rely heavily on graduate assistants and undergraduate students who work in our spaces. So, us leveraging and supporting one another I think provided a pathway to be able to move forward in a way that perhaps the Black Student Center wasn’t able to do prior. Ford: So, do you know of any pushback, internal or external, against the opening of the Black Student Center? Lai: You know, I think with any creation of new space where resources are being allocated, there are always going to be detractors and individuals who feel like is this the best use of our resources, right? I would say, from my lens where I was situated, there was not necessarily so Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 much pushback per se as much as it was trying to understand what the purposes were, right? We knew we could have a Black Student Center. I was actually—just as far as my connection to the Center and I forgot about this—I was on the committee that selected the first director, right, or was invited to be a part of that. So, we knew at the time that the director was really going to set the stage, especially being the inaugural director for a brand-new space. This individual would have to articulate the vision; would be able to link and connect with those that were on campus, both those that support it and perhaps even those that didn’t; and be able to pool those resources together; more importantly—and I think this was probably the priority—really build a rapport and a relationship with students, right, and student organizations because even if you build it, if they don’t come, then, you know—. So, you really need to help to let students know what is the purpose, why is it here, why it’s important, and to build those relationships. So, I would say that that was where our focus was. Outside of that, I don’t think that I was aware of. I wasn’t involved in any particular pushback. Was there? I’m sure there was, right? Others that may have said, I think—and it’s the same sort of trope—White students, and I use that broadly, right? But where is our White Center, right, because if you’ve got a LatinX Center, you’ve got a Black Student Center, where is the White Center? So, a lot of these things started coming through perhaps, right? Again, those were often funneled through the Office of Inclusive Excellence at the time. And so, I wasn’t necessarily a part of those sort of conversations or comments. But I will say that once a Center is established, then you start to get “Well, what about us? What about our Center? Where’s the Middle Eastern Center? Or where’s the Muslim Center, right, where we can pray? What about the Asian American Center, APIDA Center? What about the Jewish Center for the Jewish students on campus?” And so, I think it’s not so much pushback but it’s more of the “What about us now? What now?” Now that we’ve started this precedent, what does that mean? And so, I think there may have been obviously some conversations and discussions, maybe even some disagreements around that approach as well. But, beyond that, I didn’t necessarily hear any specific pushback to that because I think students had done a good job in I think articulating it. They had worked really closely with faculty. And also, the Black Faculty and Staff Association, they really helped to drive that home. So, I think, collectively, there was a desire to see that this would be successful. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, speaking of the opening, were you able to attend the grand opening? Lai: I try to remember. [laughs] That was a couple of years ago. I think I was in the back. And I don’t remember what year you are in school. Have you been? It’s on the 4th floor— Ford: Yeah, I’ve been. [chuckles] Yeah. Lai: —which is right by the stairwell. There’s not a lot of space and room in general, right? Ford: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lai: So, I think it was up there. They did a ribbon cutting ceremony up there. I recall being kind of in the back [indicates behind him with both arms] because there’s only so much space you can have, right, in front, of where it was. And that’s my recollection because I think there was a photo that I saw on a website way back when, when it was first established, or there may still be one in the archival footage, of the first director and then also with President Haynes doing some ribbon cutting and ceremonial things with the Center. But, after that, the first, his name was Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Anthony Jett. I, along with some of the other directors for the Centers, we all collaboratively work together. And so, I would have opportunities, right, to connect with the first director in trying to figure out programmatically different ideas, different approaches, and ways to look at the situation and how we can ensure the success of the Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, how did it feel the first time you visited the Center? You have any [last word unintelligible] Lai: Yeah. Well, so I’ve been here long enough that, you know, that space prior—there was some work that had to be done. That used to be the meditation stress-free zone, I guess. It was meant to be a prayer space, initially. So, it has undergone some renovation. But if you ever go up to the bathroom that’s right there as well—because there used to be a display case—and so they had removed it and created space so the folks could actually access it. There’s a gender-neutral bathroom or single stall use bathroom up there. But you’ll notice it’s different from others because there’s actually a—oh, I’m forgetting what the Islamic term is for it—but a wash station. So, you can sit. And so, the intent was that for those, particularly those, of our Muslim faith that we had a dedicated space for spirituality, prayer. Sometimes, it was a nap space, right, but for meditation. So, it was converted from that. And so, it’s right above the Cross-Cultural Center when you look at the specs. They did a really great job with the small amount of space that was there, right? I would say also, too—and being all transparent as well—having a space is important. Where the space is located is also important. So, we ran out of room on the 3 rd floor. There was no other way to chop up. The LatinX Center got wedged in between the CrossCultural Center and the Gender Equity Center. It used to be called the Social Justice—It was meant to be a training space, and they made [words cut off. Maybe “it into”?] the LatinX Center, right? And in the same vein, we can’t have a Black Student Center halfway across the campus. It has to all be in the same space, but we ran out of room. So, it’s on the 4th floor. And so, the fact that they converted it, I mean it’s a beautiful space. You have nice views. You can see it. It’s a small space, right? It can get crowded real quickly, especially if you get a critical mass, like a lot of our spaces, but just in general. And it’s right up on the top so there’s a lot of visibility as folks are walking past and go through. What I will say, though—and this is something that I think all Centers and spaces struggle with—if you see a community of people in the space, there’s always this question of do I belong here or don’t I, right? And so, I did hear early on, right, some of the challenges were “Oh, I’m not Black. I can’t go in the space. [chuckles] Should I set foot inside?” Even though if you want to learn about—Just because it’s called the Black Student Center, it’s focused on Black issues and other things that affect the Black community, but it’s not limited to individuals who identify as Black. And so, that has always been a tension, right, when it comes to who can come into the space, who’s allowed to step through the doors. Do I feel comfortable? Some of that we, as directors of our spaces, we try to make it as inviting as much as we can. But, ultimately, it’s up to that student to step through that door [chuckles] and take that step to go inside that space. So, you know, it was a beautiful space. They had a great computer lab, selfpublish stations. It was very tiny so there was one office and one desk. There was a small kitchenette and other things that you would normally want to see in a student-centered space for individuals. So, yeah, it was an exciting time. I would say, like any new spaces on campus, we want to make sure that they’re successful. And people hung out there. I will say, right, so just being in the Cross-Cultural Center and as these spaces have evolved and developed, people that Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 we normally would have seen previously in some of our spaces then started to go and gravitate, right? So, if there were Black individuals who at one point prior hung out in the Cross-Cultural Center, they now felt like—well, I don’t know if they felt like, but I would maybe see them upstairs now, right? I would have to go upstairs to connect with them versus before they would be just be right behind me, whether on couches or something like that. I could just say, “Hey, how’s it going?” and connect with them. So, that’s all part of the shift that I think that happened with student spaces, and where you feel comfortable, where you feel like you belong. And those are always dynamic, and they change, depending on the students when they come in and how they pass on orally [next few words are cut off] . . . students hang out. And then, all of a sudden you start to get some of these myths about where people should or shouldn’t be with regard to that. Ford: So, can you tell me a little bit about the early focus of the Black Student Center’s programs, and different initiatives that they did during the day? Lai: Yeah. What I recall—and, again, I wasn’t integral in the design, because Anthony Jett, the first director, really dictated a lot of that, but in my conversations with him there were a few themes that I recognized, right? One, I think, was leveraging the experience of the community in North County, which—I don’t think North County—Not to say that there aren’t Black communities, but it’s not predominantly an area regionally known for that. And so, part of it was establishing relationships. So, I want to say the NAACP has a chapter, I think, in North County or maybe in Vista or nearby. Mira Costa has centers or spaces. And so, Mira Costa does a Martin Luther King, Jr. Day of Service, right, for example, which at our campus we don’t do. We have Cesar Chavez, at the time. We do now. And so, there were—I think, Anthony, some of his first parts were really establishing those relationships because, again, there had not been a Black Student Center prior. And so, those relationships weren’t necessarily there, or the focus and taking the time to focus on those relationships weren’t necessarily there. I also think that, wherever possible, the director would try to help with recruitment. So, when we think about outreach on our campus, oftentimes these occur seventh, eighth grade, maybe high school. And so, he would spend a lot of his time either going to high school or conferences or fairs to try and let them know about the fact that there was a Black Student Center and that, yes, there are Black students and a Black community, even though it’s small, at Cal State San Marcos. It was establishing relationships with organizations like the NAACP or other institutions. It was really getting involved in the community. And that’s something, I think from what I observed, was something he spent a lot of his time doing, right? Secondary to that, and that’s where we often connected, was the programmatic nature of what was the focus and what was it going to look like. And he—and I’m forgetting what his affiliation is—but he was part of one of the Divine Nine. It may have been Omega Psi, Omega Phi? I haven’t been on campus, so my Greek is— Omega Psi Phi, I think it is, one of the Black fraternities. He himself was a member, so he built relationships, right, and brought on the fraternity and helped in those efforts, strengthened those pieces with regard to community, tried to have programming with students and work collaboratively with the Black Student Union. Student organizations, they ebb and flow [laugh] depending on who the leadership is. Sometimes, they’re really strong and sometimes people are busy and so there’s not a lot of traction. So, whatever the leadership was at the time, I think he tried to forge relationships with them as well. So yeah, I think those were the efforts. I think also Transcribed by Melissa Martin 11 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 knowing, and I shared with you early on, when I came on and there was no other Center and space, I primarily drove a lot of the History Months or the Heritage Months. And so, with the establishment of the Black Student Center now, there could be a focus. And that became their responsibility or purview to some degree, if they wanted to do programming or things like that and how they might be able to support community, create community, create opportunities for folks to gather. Those were all efforts that I think Black History Month, Black Excellence Month now, those are some of the programming efforts and focus that he was in charge of. I want to say he started in August, in the summer, so he had a really quick pivot time to try and get going because usually with planning like this, for any programming, a couple months in advance you want to be there. So, he was scrambling, not only trying to build those relationships, but also create some sort of programming that would work. So, we often would leverage and say, “Oh yeah. We’ve got this program. Let’s support one another,” or things like that, in helping to move that work forward and increasing the visibility of the Center and space. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, current, and previously, have there been any collaborative efforts between the Cross-Cultural Center and the Black Student Center? Lai: There have. I mentioned earlier, more recently, I would say we have looked at different ways to view those collaborations. So, first and foremost, the Cross-Cultural Center does a program called the Social Justice Summit which is a weekend retreat to talk about issues of social justice, to explore identity. How does that connect with the choices and decisions we make to look at power and privilege? And then, it’s a three-day conference, so by the last day of the summit/retreat, we are looking at what does that mean? How do we become an ally? So, all the Centers, including the Black Student Center once they came online, were all invited collaborators with that sort of social justice programming. It’s not only signature programs but it’s also a way that all of us intersect across our different programming areas. So, that’s definitely one area that I would say he was invited to. But again, he had so much on his plate, I don’t know if we were necessarily able to leverage that at the time when he first came onboard with the Black Student Center. Since then—and I’ll speak probably more recently and actually this is going to be tomorrow—we are doing a program tomorrow called Beyond Just Us: Empathy and Justice Across Communities, and that’s a collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and the Black Student Center. Now, that has also been a shift in our space. And I don’t know. We’re not talking about the Cross-Cultural Center, but we started to do more programming in the absence of an Asian Pacific Islander Desi American-dedicated space. And that’s not us. We have a lot of students who identify, that hang out in our space: Filipino, Chinese, otherwise. But, in the absence of an actual space, we’re doing programming because there’s still going to be a need for that. So, that’s a program defining diaspora, a APIDA identities. That’s a program series we do within our space. And in light of the recent assaults and attacks on Asian American communities, and sometimes by perpetrators who were perceived as Black, we’ve seen an increase in the solidarity marches and/or the ways in which both of these communities have come together, right? And so, tomorrow is an example of where we’re looking at what does that intersectionality look like between Asian and Black communities? What has that history been, right? In the description, we talk about this trope. I don’t know when you were born, Ayana, but I was in high school during the 1992 riots, Rodney King, when the policemen were acquitted and the aftermath of all that, or actually leading up to all that, right, what happened as a result of his beating. And Transcribed by Melissa Martin 12 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 at the time—again, so this goes back to your very first question about my lens and stuff in high school—that was probably another point, just looking at those relationships because I remember having arguments with my Korean friends like “Why are you going to L.A.?” I’m not anti-gun. I’m not a fan of having any firearms in general, right? That’s not for me to deal with. And I remember having heated conversations with them about why are you going to Korea Town. Just stay safe! And they’re like “No. This is our livelihood, so we need to protect ourselves.” Well, anyway, there was this trope. There was this “It’s Black against Asian,” right, because L.A., and then if you go to Korea Town, those are the businesses that were being looted or specifically targeted. And so, that trope has reemerged again, right? “Oh, these attacks against Asian American communities, they’re all perpetrated by Black people.” And so, there’s this thing where, again, looking at White supremacy in a broader context, things that I’m starting to learn more about now, that it’s pitting two different groups against one another rather than looking at the larger issues and systemic issues that are happening that are shared across both communities. And so, because of that, that’s what we’re going to be exploring a little bit tomorrow, right, is kind of demystifying that trope, recognizing where each of these communities have some commonality, where they can stand in solidarity, how we can feel like we can be empathetic but also be accountable, right, to those things, and the complicated histories, right? I talk about how Asian Americans can sometimes perpetuate that notion of anti-Blackness. So, what is our role in that, and then where does that apply when the perceived perpetrators are they themselves Black, right? It’s not about blaming but looking at the bigger picture. So, that’s just another more current example, yet to happen tomorrow, that we’re going to be putting on. And I look forward to possibly great relationships now with John being the current director and because of the structures that I mentioned earlier in our conversation, where we work more closely together than we have previously. We’re being able to see more opportunities to collaborate and to do some programming between the Black Student Center and the Cross-Cultural Center, and that it’s more targeted, right? Another one that didn’t happen this year but perhaps the next year— one thing that we do in the Cross-Cultural Center to differentiate ourselves from some of the other spaces is we have a focus on advocacy and activism. What does that look like? We’re not going to dictate, this is how you are an activist or not, [laughs] you’re an activist. But we do believe that I think students need to know about what are some models. What are some strategies? What are—you know, protests are important, and it definitely has a place in creating change. It’s not the only way to create change. It’s the most visible way, and I think oftentimes students and others conflate that if I’m going to be an activist, I have to be out on the streets. [laughs] And so, we’re trying to provide different venues and avenues for exploring what activism and advocacy looks like. Also, as a tangent—and this goes back, sort of connected—but I’ve been a part of my professional associations and I went to conferences, and one of the things that struck me was that when a lot of these Black Lives Matter protests were occurring, it was a student who was at Stanford. He was an engineer. He was a Black student. But he talked about “I go to these protests, and I got arrested. I wasn’t expecting to be arrested, but I got arrested. And then, the rest of the semester, I had to deal with going to court, working with my lawyer,” all these things that, in the moment, he hadn’t thought about necessarily, or maybe he thought about but he didn’t think it all the way through. And so, those were all things that caused me to think about “Okay, we need to do more to help educate our students so that it’s not like ‘Hey, come with me. We’re going to go do this.’” It’s more like “Okay. If you are going to go protest and Transcribed by Melissa Martin 13 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 you might get arrested, what are some practical things you should know about before you go there, right?” all those things. Anyway. So, having said that—that was a lot—we, as part of that program of the Activist Lab, which is another program series we do—we were going to explore the legacy of John Lewis. So, this year, in particular, the library has—their read is the book They Came for Us, by George Takei, which is a graphic novel, and the power of graphic novels. And so, March, the book by John Lewis, is a three-part book, talks and illustrates similarly and actually was inspiration, I believe, for the George Takei book, They Came for Us. So, we were going to work with the Black Student Center, going all the way back to your first question for that collaboration, of trying to do a book discussion about March, right? What was John Lewis’s legacy? How did he, at his young age, decide to do what he did when it came to protesting and sitting in diners where he wasn’t supposed to be? So, again, this was just through a lens of trying to understand strategies, looking at models or individuals who could be models of what activism looks like and how do they come to those decisions. But we needed to postpone that, but that’s another example of a program where we worked with the Black Student Center or will be working with the Black Student Center in identifying programmatic opportunities and connections. And there will continue to be opportunities because very much all of our work is very intersectional in nature. We all believe that I’m not just an Asian identified individual. I’m male. I’m heterosexual or straight, right? All those identities impact one another and sometimes they coincide with some of these other spaces like the LatinX Center or the Black Student Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. Lai: Yeah. Ford: I look forward to hearing more about those programs. Lai: Yeah. [laughs] Ford: So, do you know why the Black Student Center was moved from Student Success to Student Life? Lai: Yes. I think part of it was, again, a restructuring to leverage resources. I think there was—I won’t get too much into it, but I reported up to the Vice President of Student Affairs, Dr. Lorena Checa. However, we all reported differently to different supervisors. And so, that in and of itself causes—so, I may have a different focus or approach than Student Success has an approach, right? And so, we just had different ways in which we’re doing it— [reception starts to become very choppy] Ford: Can you hold off one second? [seems to be trying to figure out how to improve reception] Lai: —instead of going in three different directions, we feel like we’re all going in the same direction. Oh, sure. Ford: So, why was the Black Student Center moved from the Student Success to Student Life? Lai: Yes. My short answer would be that it was a leveraging of resources. Whereas reporting to three different associate vice presidents, by going to a singular associate vice president or supervisor, and then to the vice president of student affairs, we are in lockstep to some degree. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 14 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 We still have a lot of autonomy but we’re moving in the same direction, whereas before we may have been going in three different directions because we each had a supervisor who may have had a different approach or had a thought about what we should be prioritizing. Consolidating those efforts, in my estimation, has helped us to really focus in on what is it that collectively, all five of us, how do we tell our story? Where are there areas for overlap, collaboration, or opportunities that we previously connected with? And we want to collaborate. The campus, by nature, we just tend to be collaborative in general, but even more so now. We can leverage the fact that we all have the same supervisor, the same area. We all have a similar basic mission now around this notion of student life in moving forward. Now, Student Success is a part of Student Life. It all, again, overlaps in a lot of ways. But having a singular supervisor, in my estimation, helps us to move that more successfully and hopefully make bigger strides in progressing and moving our individual agendas or our approaches more effectively and efficiently. Ford: Mm-hmm. Okay. So, what are some of the wrinkles that needed to be ironed out during the opening of the Center? Lai: I think same as anyone else, how people could fit. Who’s going to fit? [chuckles] When we could have food, do we have enough food for everyone? How much is that going to cost? Are people going to come? Are they not going to come? How do we ensure success? What is success defined as? I think those are all part of the wrinkles. We all have a blueprint for what we hope will happen, but the wrinkles are really the details in trying to figure out what needs to happen, how to ensure that those things are happening. Those are some of the early ones, I think, more than anything. Just like any new Center or space, you’ve got to publicize. And it’s funny. You could be screaming from the top. You could have a million signs— [laughs] Ford: Mm-hmm. [nods] Lai: —on the door that tell you exactly what’s going on and you still will have people go “Oh, what’s this?” Right? Because people are just not in that frame of mind. And in the same vein, you could be screaming from the rooftops, “We have a Black Student Center!” and you’ll inevitably have a student that goes “Oh. I didn’t know that we had it.” [laughs] Getting yourself visible, letting folks know about it, helping them understand what the initial purpose is, who is it for? I heard stories, and these were probably from Black students, they’d be sitting there, and people would be walking and tiptoeing by the door. They’d look inside and they would keep walking, right? Like “Is this where I’m supposed to— Can I come in?” And these were also Black students, maybe even too, to some degree, right? So, just those experiences and hesitancies, I think, are all part of the wrinkles that were a part of that sort of opening to some degree. Our program as well, in the first year, we were trying to establish what is the . . . What are the needs of the students? How do I meet those needs and ensure that this is a place that they would want to come back to? Those are all wrinkles, I think, that I think early on needed to be worked . . . And why—all the more reason that any inaugural director has a huge burden to try and lift, right, when you’re the first of any [technical difficulties] because it’s freeing as there’s no precedent. It doesn’t feel like you have to step up to anything. But at the same time there’s no real benchmark either for what that’s like [technical difficulties] And so, those are all the wrinkles and things that people sorted through in the early days of the Black Student Center. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 15 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Ford: Mm-hmm. So, what do you feel like the main purpose of the creation of the Center was? I knew you went into a little bit of detail on that before, but in your opinion. Lai: Yeah. I think that there is an acknowledgment and a desire that spaces like these can be helpful in supporting students in their efforts [technical difficulties] I feel like [technical difficulties] just as they need to be able to move forward. There are ways in which that can be manifest. There are different models. I came from a—I told you about the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine where I did my undergrad and then eventually worked for a couple of years. They were established in the early ‘70s, but then higher education has gone through budget cuts and then sometimes it does well. So, there’s a lot of these cycles. And there was a moment in time where “We don’t have money. So, we’re going to consolidate everything. And then, we’ll have specialists,” right? And then, there’s other times where it’s like they see it’s a dedicated space, right? And so, I think we go through cycles like that. And so, I think regardless of the efforts that I may have tried to do or contribute, either in supporting the student organization, I wasn’t Black, you know. And that’s not a dig and saying that you have to be in order to. I just didn’t really have that perspective or experience. And so, I think there was a need to have a Center or a space dedicated, especially in light of Black Lives Matter and a lot of these things that are issues that are more complex and complicated that I think require those people to be able to—And even then [next few words unintelligible due to reception] that’s of value for any particular challenge. So, I think there’s that. There was the fact that students wanted it, right? And there was a desire for that. And so, we want to support students in those efforts. But we also want to make sure that students are doing it thoughtfully and not, as I said, just because they want a space. They need to be able to justify why. And I think they were able to articulate that there was a need. So, to me, that’s the reason why I think a Black Student Center needed to exist. There was not enough programming or attention being paid to the issues that the Black community needed to address at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the Black Student Center helped to fill that void to some degree [technical difficulties] individuals who focused their specifically on the needs of the Black community and how to move those efforts forward. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, do you think that purpose has been accomplished? Lai: I think it’s in process. I think that we’re moving in the right direction. I believe so. I think all those things I mentioned about our students coming, how do we generate those. Because students come every year, right, and cycle through every four years, in a lot of ways because people that are coming in don’t always have the context or the history. And so, I think it can feel repetitive but for the student who has never been there, it’s the first time they’re hearing this information and what the purpose of the Black Student Center might be. And so, to your question, yes, they are accomplishing it. I feel like they’re moving in that direction. I think that they’re building community. I feel like we’re there tackling and connecting with spaces like mine across [technical difficulties] the Cross-Cultural Center [technical difficulties] to really [technical difficulties] because there are so many [technical difficulties] you know, or if you are Black from Africa versus Black in the United States. All of those things I think are part of that direction and effort of what the Black Student Center is trying to accomplish. And so, I believe, yes, they are moving in the right direction, and there’s always going to be opportunities to do better. But I feel confident that they’re making strides. The fact that we get a chance to talk about the oral history and talking about the history of the Center is a positive step in the right direction, to Transcribed by Melissa Martin 16 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 acknowledge its origins and also perspective on what its impact has been on Cal State San Marcos. And, for me, that means that if you have the ability to go back and reflect, that means you kind of have a good . . . because early on, it’s hard to know where you want to go when you don’t know where you’ve been, is something I learned from a mentor. And so, history, context has been such a part of my own professional development. And so, I was excited and why I was “Oh, yeah. I want to sign up. I want to be a part of this project,” because these pieces are helpful for future generations to understand what it was, why it was created, why it should be continued or why I think they should continue to fight for its existence in the future, regardless of whatever may happen in the future. Ford: So, how did the Black Student Center opening impact you personally? Lai: I was excited for it. I think I could see individuals, as I mentioned, who maybe hung out in our spaces prior really excited and really happy that they had a space that they felt like they could call their own, right? Again, not to say they couldn’t come downstairs and hang out in the Cross-Cultural Center, but a space that they feel like they had a connection to. Very much like when I shared with you my own personal experience with [technical difficulties] race formational center because I was going through this sort of with my own identity development. I saw very much in them what I saw in myself many, many years ago at UC Irvine, that they felt like they had a place that they felt a direct connection to. It wasn’t necessarily transactional. It wasn’t like “I’m just here to use the computer.” It was a space where they could go and they could find community, where they could be themselves. And I didn’t say this but where you could go and be yourself without having to explain yourself to anyone else, if that makes sense, right? [technical difficulties] a lot of places where there’s a lot of diverse people and then people ask you questions and you’re like “Okay. I’ve got to talk about that again,” versus you go to spaces like a Black Student Center if you’re Black in particular, and people just get you, right? There’s not a what? Why? What? You know, it’s just they get you. So, I think I saw that energy being—and I still see it now, right, with the students that decide or choose to be a part of those spaces. And so, that’s kind of [technical difficulties], that I’ve observed and seen. Anytime there’s a new space that is focused on the wellbeing and success of student populations, particularly those that are marginalized, I think I’ve come to appreciate and be optimistic that those spaces can serve a greater purpose, right, and how they can help students in their own personal development much like the Cross-Cultural Center did for me when I was at UC Irvine. Ford: So, with how everything is, what would you expect next to see from the Black Student Center? Lai: That’s a great question. That’s a John [Rawlins III], the director, question. I guess what I would hope to see is opportunities to engage in broader conversations, right, of what Blackness looks like in the many other spaces or other communities. I would love to see a large number of students get [technical difficulties] and come into Cal State San Marcos as their first choice, not necessarily just because there’s a Black Student Center, but because there’s a sense that the Cal State San Marcos campus is dedicated to Black excellence, is dedicated to the success of students, and it’s demonstrated because the students have this. It’s one of multiple pieces, right? But it can play an integral piece in the cocurricular experience that students have. I’m in Student Affairs and what that means is that I look at the co-curriculum, what happens outside of the Transcribed by Melissa Martin 17 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 classroom. There’s a lot that happens inside the classroom, but I often believe that if they have a great experience outside of the classroom, those narratives, those anecdotes, those stories supplement what they learn in the classroom, right? There’s this theory. How does this thing—? You’re like, “Well, I have experienced that. Can I translate that into better experiences?” So, it’s the cycle and there is some reciprocity. What happens inside the classroom, what happens outside the classroom, there’s a symbiotic relationship. And so, I look forward to a time when the Black Student Center can continue to play a critical role in those efforts for our Black students at Cal State San Marcos. I guess long term, and optimistically, I hope that like “Oh my gosh. They got an amazing Black Student Center at Cal State San Marcos.” And so, that definitely is going to be the reason why I want to be able to go there, right? They’ve got some amazing programs or initiatives that are unique or novel. They look at it a little bit differently. They’re very creative, right? That you wouldn’t necessarily [technical difficulties] I think those are things that I look forward to, right? I’m also aware of the fact that our current structure— John is the only director [chuckles]; there’s a lot of us who help—that it's not his burden to bear alone, if that makes sense, right? Just like when we talk about issues of diversity or issues of inclusive excellence, it’s not just a diversity people. It’s not the people of color’s responsibility alone. Everyone has to play a role. And so, in that same vein, the Black Student Center’s success will also hinge on my ability to provide and support them and help them to be successful in my own contributions, whether it’s being a part of this, finding ways to assist them and help them in their efforts, defending them when necessary, when people go “Why do we need a Black Student Center?” and helping to foster and build a stronger community together. Ford: So, are there any other questions that I haven’t asked that I could or which you want to add or anything else? Lai: No. It was pretty thorough. I was curious because as I was hearing about the oral history project, I know we talked about it. I said, “Okay, you want to send me the questions?” And you’re like “Oh, no. It’s just going to be a conversation.” So, I had no idea what the questions are going to be. And so, I was like “Why do they care what my childhood was like?” [both laugh] Because this is for the Black Student Center Oral History Project. But I appreciate those questions, and . . . and motivations, right, for my connection to the Black Student Center. In my self defense, I am someone or co-conspirator to some degree, someone who wants to create positive change in the community. I’m still doing the work every day and trying to figure out what I could do better each time, what to do differently, right, in a way that hopefully is helpful. I still learn from John, the director, and help support him. So, yeah. So, thank you so much— Ford: Thank you so much for letting me interview you. That was a wonderful— Lai: —for the opportunity. [I don’t have] anything else to add other than yeah, for the opportunity to share with you and to get to know you better, or at least partially, right? [both laugh] Ford: Thank you so much. Lai: Of course, Ayana. I think that’s it for me, right? Is there any other questions or no? Ford: No. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 18 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Lai: We’re good? Ford: Yeah. Lai: Okay. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 19 2024-02 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lai, Floyd. Interview transcript, April 19, 2021. Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai was the director CSUSM's Cross-Cultural Center from 2011 - 2023, where he engaged with students and their social justice and activism. Lai attended the University of California Irvine before coming to Cal State San Marcos. Lai saw the growth of the Black Student Center, and helped it grow by supporting and aiding students. In this interview, Lai also discusses his life and childhood. This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-19 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Racism -- California -- Irvine Student success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Irvine (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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