11 10 196 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e721d1cd7dda1d7fcf17f30300ce3e80.pdf 47e89b7891da9bb8f9d88de16560a121 PDF Text Text FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Floyd Lai, director of the Cross-Cultural Center here at California State University San Marcos, (for) the CrossCultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Monday, April 10th, 2023, and the time is 4:38(pm). Hi Floyd, could you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your early life? Where did you grow up, what your parents did for work? Lai: Hi, Madeleine. Yeah, so my name once again is Floyd Lai. I use he/him pronouns. And I grew up, I was born originally in, on the island of Oahu, in Kahuku, which is on the North Shore. My parents are both immigrants from Taiwan. So, they immigrated in about the early seventies, to Lāʻie. Went to school there, got married, went to school there, and that's where I was born. Eventually moved around and arrived in southern California when I turned six. And I've grown up mostly in an area called Roland Heights up in the Los Angeles, greater Los Angeles area, county area. Um, since then, my parents, being immigrants did a couple of different jobs. When we first started and they first came over, they were helping out with a restaurant here in California. And so that's what partly brought us here to California. And then over time, my father eventually went into, as an entrepreneur went into his own business. And so we have, since I wanna say about the mid-nineties, he um, we have a manufacturing business in zippers. And so, my--it's a family business, although I'm not a part of it, and so (laughs) I'm indirectly involved, but so they manufacture and create zippers for the garment industry in general. Meyer: Oh, that's really interesting. So what was your educational journey like? I understand that you got your degree in bioengineering from UC (University of California) Irvine, is that correct? Lai: Almost, almost. It was in environmental engineering. Meyer: Oh, okay. Lai: So, yeah, I don't think biomedical or bio was, was quite ready yet. But at Irvine where I went to school, my original, I graduated the degree in environmental engineering. In my junior year I had a(n) internship, which allowed me to go and actually experience what it was like, kind of taking samples of water and you know, doing things. I went and visited government agencies to kind of see a history of what the land looked like prior to the current state, just to see if there were any underwater tanks or anything that would hold anything hazardous. So did that one summer and realized I didn't like it. I didn't see myself doing that for very much longer. And one thing that was different though is that I was heavily involved on campus, and so I was involved in a couple of different student organizations. I interned as a Special Projects Intern at the Cross-Cultural Center. So that was my first introduction to multicultural or cross-cultural centers. And so because of that, it really allowed me to kind of see that I enjoyed working with students and kind of being able to develop programs and being a part of something like that. And it took a mentor of mine, someone I consider a mentor, to tap me on the shoulder and say, “Hey, you'd be really good at this. This is something you might want to consider as a career.” By then I was so far along in my degree that I decided not to change, but rather just complete the degree. And after I graduated college, (I) went into the field of student affairs, which is kind of the work that I do now. And so that's kind of how I got into the pathway of where I am today. My, I decided to work to see if this was kind of the field I wanted to get into. And fortunately, the mentor who I consider someone who kind of guided me on this pathway, left the institution (and) came back, or left southern California, came back and was in a new position and was looking for someone. And so I, that's where I got a job with her, at Alliant International University. It was kind of a jack of all trades; I learned a lot of different skills. It was a very small institution. And so I learned, I was the Student Affairs Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 1 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 Coordinator, but I did a lot of different things while I was there. And so, that was only gonna be one year. That turned into three, and then I finally decided that I needed to go to grad school, so I ended up getting my graduate or master's degree in post-secondary administration and student affairs at University of Southern California. And so, in that process, about a year into my program, there was an opportunity to go back to my alma mater at UCI (University of California, Irvine) and get a chance to work there as a program coordinator. So I was in my graduate program. There was this opportunity, I wasn't sure how this was gonna work, but I decided to go for it. (I) was hired, and so I essentially was doing a large commute between Irvine, downtown LA, and West LA where I lived. And just kind of making that work for the couple years that I was there. That eventually ended up being my full-time position at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine. I worked there for about six years, and then as I was looking to see what the next step would be in my progression of my career, an opportunity occurred down here at Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos, in twenty-- about 2011. And so, I was hired in June of 2011 to work here at Cal State San Marcos. I've been here ever since. Meyer: Mm-hmm. And you're the longest running program director, right? Lai: I am, yeah. So, we've had, I'm the fifth person that's been in the position as the, at the time, Associate Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. But, I've been the longest serving. Meyer: Okay. Lai: And so I'm going on about, (my) 13th year now that it's 2023, so. Meyer: Okay. Were there any particular instances in your life in which you decided that student activism and social justice was really what you felt passionate about? Was there like any one incident or student you helped or? Lai: Yeah. I don't know if there was one single instance necessarily. I--again, my degree was in environmental engineering, and so someone who has that sort of degree, their course load or their classes are pretty set. I was double majoring at the time or attempting to double major with a degree in Japanese language and literature. Which didn't happen. But--so there was very little time for me to take, you know, extensive sociology courses, ethnic studies courses. I took one Asian American Studies class. But I think those opportunities, along with the work that I did at the Cross-Cultural Center, really opened my eyes to what might be possible. I wouldn't say that I was passionate about the work in that regard, but I think as a student, I really enjoyed the topics and issues that were being brought up. A lot of it was around self-exploration, better understanding my own identities and how it interacted with some of the experiences that I had. I will say that I think something that was seminal was I um, in about nineteen, mid-nineties, about ninety-five or so, the internet was still kind of in its early infancy. This is when we had to go to chat rooms or go to, go to certain rooms to be able to chat online and talk to one another. And I was still, you know, I was new to the technology, but I had um, was in one of the labs and I received a message indicating, that you know from someone randomly somewhere that, you know, pretty much told me as an Asian American that I was ruining his career, his academic career. And that he wanted to basically kill every effing one of us. You know, I didn't know what, how to react to it at the time. I went to the person in the lab, let them know, realized I wasn't the only person that received that message. Turns out I and a bunch of other folks that happened to be in the lab and also happened to have Asian sounding last names, were the first instance of a hate crime over email at the time at UCI (University of California at Irvine). And so that experience was sort of a culminating experience for me Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 2 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 when it came to how one's identity can impact their lived experiences. Right? Up until--not that I was unaware of that before, but I think as an Asian American, the experiences I had weren't necessarily equivalent to maybe, let's say a Black American or, someone who might identify as Latinx. There wasn't even that term back then, right? And so those are the things that I think really opened my eyes. And so I got more involved, invested in the work that the Cross-Cultural Center did at UCI, and because of that, that allowed me to explore those areas that I probably wouldn't have if I had continued to go into the field of engineering. I take all of the learning I got, the way I think as an engineer and try to apply it in the work I do today. And so definitely it still serves me in a lot of ways. Um, but it was, I would say that experience coupled with the support that I got from the Cross-Cultural Center and the mentorship that I got, and the opportunities I had to work there that allowed me to find this field of student affairs, and specifically multicultural affairs, is the work that I do. And so, that's been kind of the trajectory and the pathway that I've kind of fallen into. And, you know, like with any position, I don't know how long I'll be somewhere, but there's definitely something unique and special that I've experienced here at Cal State San Marcos that is reminiscent of my time as an undergrad at UCI that I think they're very similar in that at that time, Irvine was not as big as it is now. And it felt very--it was, it felt like it was just, it was just coming into its own. And I feel like Irv-- Cal State San Marcos is in a similar way kind of coming into its own as well. And so I think I enjoy those experiences and why working here has been a great opportunity for me to continue to grow and develop as not only my professional career, but also participating in the student life that occurs here on campus. Meyer: Right. Right. Okay. So oh, you can go ahead and take a drink. Yeah. Did any, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first came aboard here? Lai: Yeah so, my understanding and I'm a person who, when I learned real early an adage that I, again, one of my mentors said, you know it, you don't, you're not really sure where you're going until you really understood where you've come from. And so I've taken that to heart in a lot of ways. And so, I worked at UCI for about six years and really understood the history. Coming here I had a very similar, I didn't know fully--it's different. It's a different campus. It's a different population of students that I work with. And so, it took some time to kind of understand sort of the history of what the (CSUSM CrossCultural) center is. So, it really appealed to me. We at the time were called Multicultural Programs. There was a Cross-Cultural Center. It was up in what is currently now where the University Advancement Office is located in the Commons Area, kind of up there. And I had two offices, that was kind of the center. And then I was a part of the Student Life and Leadership (SLL), which is now has also evolved in, it has a different name now on campus: Student Leadership and Involvement Center now. But back then it was SLL. And I was hired on as the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so what that meant is that I was a part of Student Life, or at that time, Student Life and Leadership. And I oversaw the Cross-Cultural Center, but it was also integrated into much of the other programs, which included orientation at the time, student, student organizations, fraternity and sorority life. It was all encompassed in that department. So, I had colleagues that had a specific area. And then my area was in Multicultural Programs, or the Cross-Cultural Center. We were a small office (laughs). My desk was literally in the middle of everything. No walls, you know, I was just there and everything kind of happened. There was comfortable couches and things but it was, you know, it was busy. It could be loud at times. And so, I had to either kind of zone it out so I could focus on the work, or really develop relationships with the folks and the students that were there. It was, it felt you know, we were still kind Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 3 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 of growing in a lot of ways. And so, I used the first couple years to really understand, or at least try to understand where the Cross-Cultural Center at Cal State San Marcos, what its history had been, what its legacy was at the time, and what it could be, and really understanding that. Um, and so that's kind of the first kind of impression I got. I know I did a lot of walking back and forth between my quote unquote office or upstairs. So about, probably about two days or three days after my first day, which was June 11th, I remember that 2011, or maybe it was (June) 13, whatever that Monday was, Dilcie Perez, who was my supervisor at the time, took me to a meeting to talk about the development and construction of the new University Student Union (building on CSUSM campus that houses student organizations) at the time. So, I got a chance to see kind of what was gonna happen within the next couple of years. And sure enough, soon as, you know, this Union the Union was built, we had a much larger space. We--at the time, there were still only the three centers. So, it was the Cross-Cultural Center at the time, (another center) known as the Women's Equity Center, or the Women's Center, I should say. It was before it was called the--what it's current name is (Women and Gender Equity Center), and then the LGBTQIA Pride Center. So it was just those three spaces and so we each had a space, and really it was a lot more square footage, a lot more opportunities to kind of do programs and do different things in those spaces. So, I've seen kind of an, an evolution of how space has affected and been an integral part of what the students experience. Right? And so, they had now a larger space they could call their home and be able to participate in the programming that we did. Meyer: Nice. So, obviously a lot has changed in the years since you have been Director of the CrossCultural Center. What do you think some of the biggest transformations are? I mean, obviously the space transformed. Lai: Yeah. I think, you know, students are different, right? I think every year there's a new crop of students that come in, comes in, and so their--the demographic, their experiences are very different. The last couple years with COVID in particular. So there, so I think of, you know the students we have are part of the differences in trying to ensure that we're fulfilling our mission and supporting the students that come in, whatever experiences they have at the time. So, that I think has evolved and shifted and changed. I would say the issues too, I think back when I started, not that it wasn't an issue, but I think questions about diversity, equity and inclusion, weren't as divisive as they feel like right now to some degree. And the ability to have a difference of opinion, or even be diverse for lack of a better word, it seemed like there was less of that animosity or even a question of whether that's even integral or important, than there is now. And so that's been a shift or change that I've seen. Besides obviously the space. I think the mission has shifted and evolved and changed. So as I've gotten a better sense of, one, honoring and understanding what the history of the Cross-Cultural Center was here at Cal State San Marcos. You know, after a couple years, I wanted to put my own sort of spin and, or impact it in a way that I thought would benefit the students that were here at the time. And so, the mission, not that it's evolved, it's kind of--well no--it has evolved in a way that I think is trying to be more--trying to meet the needs of the students that we have currently. So those are some of the things: the programs, the way it's organized as well, programmatically, so that it aligns with our mission. We're trying to be more strategic about that as well. And so those have been some of the things that I think I've seen kind of shift and change, as well as I think just the, just the natural budget cycles, politics and other things that occur on a college campus. Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 4 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 Meyer: Can you talk a little bit about the programs that you guys have? Lai: Yeah, yeah. Our current iteration now, we have, our focus is in four specific areas which include: developing cultural competency, activism and advocacy, critical engagement across social identity groups. So, we come from an intersectional lens. And so, recognizing that there is, there are ways that different people and different identities can interact and have unique outcomes. And so how do we explore that a little bit? And then the retention of underrepresented students in ensuring that they stay here and are successful. We have a high number of students who are first generation college students. And so recognizing that there is additional support that's needed. So those are the four sort of main pillars, for lack of a better word, that we have in the Cross-Cultural Center that really round us in the work that we do in the mission of the center. The programs we put on mirror that. So, we have program series, that we kind of--as a guide for our students. When I first came on, I think--and I think with anything we want, I was still learning, and so the students had some set programs that they put on, and you know, it would change and evolve depending on what the student's interests were. And so, it felt like it was not something con-- there was always an underlying thread, but there was not something that felt like it was consistent. And so, probably about five or six years ago, we instituted more of a program series that aligned with the themes that I shared earlier. And so, some of them are direct correlations. So, for example the Activist Lab, that meets our theme of advocacy and activism, it's an exploration of different ways in which students or participants can see who, what activists, who they were, what were their causes, how did they approach creating social change. Protest is absolutely an integral part of it, but it's not the only way that I think, um, students oftentimes think may be the only way. And so really helping to explore the different avenues of creating social changes is what we do within the Activist Lab. The other one we do as far as retention is called Academe & Me, it used to be called Tukwut Talks: Conversations with Faculty. But it was really about how to create programs that allow students to develop relationships with faculty members, recognizing that they were students themselves at one point, had highs and lows. And you know, and really humanize, I think for lack of a better word, because I think students oftentimes, either if they don't have a question or unsure about having a conversation with their faculty member, they don't. They--what do we talk about kind of a thing, right? And so they often put 'em on this sort of pedestal. And so inviting faculty--and even now we have grad students come in and participate--but let them know that it's okay that they have, they're just like anyone else. Maybe even learning about a particular subject of study that perhaps they didn't even know was something they could study. So that particular--Academe & Me is really about helping to hopefully create a pipeline of students to go into the professorate or into academia. Again, developing relationships with them and so, that's part of how we hopefully can retain our students. One final thing that we do, well two others I'll speak to. One is Critical Cougars: Unlearn. Relearn. And so that really aligns with the notion of how do we explore those different identities? And in the critical engagements and this around across social identity groups. It's kind of our largest sort of bucket, ‘cause anything can be sort of put in that particular bucket, but it's really about how do we unlearn maybe things that we learned in high school, how do we relearn or even learn for the first time things that we weren't taught necessarily, depending on where we went. And how do we evolve and continue to change and challenge ourselves critically in the thinking that we have. And so that's what that sort of program does. And then finally, I'll speak to something--my identity is, and I didn't, I spoke part of it a little bit earlier when I introduced myself, but my parents are from Taiwan, so I identify as Asian American, specifically Chinese American. And so, currently at Cal State San Marcos, there isn't a physical building, or a center Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 5 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 dedicated to Asian Pacific Islander Desi American students. So with that vacuum, I said you know, the Cross-Cultural Center and oftentimes a Multicultural Center has served in that sort of capacity; where the space is there but the other, like the LGBTQIA or the Women's Center, this Cross-Cultural Center in other, not necessarily here but in other spaces, they've been--they came from that space. And then once they had a critical mass or felt the need, they were established. So in the same vein, we don't have one currently. So because of that, and partly because of my own identity as that, we have a program called Defining Diaspora: Asian Pacific Islander Desi American Identities. Which essentially is just an exploration of that really large group of individuals and identities that fall under that sort of diaspora. And so, a lot of programming is, can be about a specific individual, a particular culture, a particular practice or tradition in those areas. And so that's kind of what Defining Diaspora is meant to do, is to really help to expose students of those identities, or those that aren't and wanting to learn more about to those types of cultures and traditions that are part of that. So those are kind of the programs we do. Underlying all that is really a focus on social justice work. And so, things that my predecessors started, my immediate predecessor, Sarah (Sheikh) started was the Social Justice Summit, which is kind of a three-day, two-night retreat. Which really allows a small group of about forty students the opportunity to explore their personal identities, better understand what social justice, that term, ‘cause I think we throw it out a lot of times. We want, you know environmental justice, this kind of justice. And so, what does it really mean when we talk about social justice? Having an understanding of the dynamics of either oppression or privilege, and really exploring what those concepts are. And then, we hope, and it's you know it's not always perfect, but it's that third day is then a focus as we return or plan or prepare ourselves to come back to campus. How do we become allies or co-conspirators, or how can we better support those communities or identities we may not necessarily have ourselves? And so, that has been something that's gone on for a while, again that predated me, and we've just kind of expanded and grown that. So, now we have in addition to the summit, which has been on hiatus because of COVID but we hope to bring it back this fall, the Symposium which is kind of more of a conference style. And that sprang out of an understanding that even, again, I'm a big proponent of tradition or just what legacies have been left behind. There were you know, faculty and stu-- staff that really wanted to take an opportunity for the campus to explore what social justice means in a conference sort of setting. So whether it's workshops, presentations. So that kind of has evolved into our Social Justice Symposium. And then when COVID hit, we couldn't do either one of those. And so we, my GA, graduate assistant at the time Daniela (Carreon) we, in discussions, we wanted to start a scholars program. And so, it's kind of a little bit of the summit. It's not the overnight, because it's kind of a class setting or curriculum. It's over the course of a couple weeks. Similarly, not a very big class, but very intimate for folks who want to be able to learn about these things and be scholars. And so the hope is that they're all connected in some way. Scholars can help in presenting at Symposium, Scholars can also be some of the mentors at the Summit and retreat. And so that's another area that we focus on in the Cross-Cultural Center, in collaboration now with the other centers, Student Life Centers that exist here on campus. Meyer: In what ways do you think, has your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center helped you expand and develop as a person and as a professional? I know you've touched a little bit (overlapping dialogue) butLai: Yeah. Yeah. No, you know, the work I do, I would say absolutely students are at the heart of the work that we do. And so, as students have evolved and changed in their challenges and their perspectives have evolved, I in similar fashion, I think have learned from that as well. And so--it's not, I Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 6 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 say this to students all the time: it's not about saying, “Oh I took this workshop. Check, I'm done with diversity, or I'm done with this topic.” It's an ongoing, you know, lifelong pursuit of recognizing and interacting with people that are maybe different from you. And everyone's gonna have a unique perspective or a unique--I mean there are similar, you know places or, you know people connect to. But everyone's different. And for that reason, I think I've evolved and developed a more nuanced approach in how to not only have the conversation around, um, diversity, equity, inclusion, even topics of social justice. I view my role oftentimes as the Director (of the Cross-Cultural Center) in how do we invite people to have those conversations? Even if they're difficult, even if they're challenging, even if they're divisive. Which I know is so hard to do, because why would I wanna sit across the table from someone who absolutely does not believe I should exist or doesn't agree in a lot of different ways. But I think it's through that process, that I've been able to kind of learn and grow as well on either approaches or ways in which we can kind of bring people to the table to have these types of conversations. It is my belief that I think, and I take that to heart because it's my own experience as I've better understood you know, the various isms, prejudices, biases and whatnot that I am a better person for it. And I'm more aware of situations and things that can be changed to enable folks to feel like they're included as part of that experience, whatever it may necessarily be. So, you know my father is an immigrant as part of his identity. He was also, he was born in 1940, and so he was prior to the polio vaccine. So, he has a disability in the sense that he at the time had a brace, and now it, now he's in a wheelchair. But that allowed me to recognize, I mean, we got so many stairs here at Cal State San Marcos, sometimes it's hard to know where people have accessibility and things like that. But so that's something I you know, I grew up with and I recognized, so I thought, “Oh yeah, I know about disabilities. I get it.” And then more recently at a conference I attended, and this is COVID was still happening, we had the stickers that said, “Hey, if it's green, we can hug each other. If it's yellow, you know, maybe like elbows or whatever. And if it's red, no, I want to stay six feet away,” kind of thing. And so, I was part of a registration group, and I share this in the workshops that I do with students, but I said, “Okay, great. We're done, right? We just gotta do the stickers.” And a colleague of mine said, “Well, wait, what if they're colorblind? How would they know which color to pick?” Never occurred to me, because I'm not colorblind. So, we eventually found a solution. We wrote down, you know, R, Y, and G, so folks could at least see what was written there, regardless of the color. But it's those things, those interactions. And I realized that, you know, it's not until you're either confronted with something or maybe you say something you (laughs) you know, you probably shouldn't have said that you realize or better understand sort of the experience. And so, my hope in the work that I do with the Cross-Cultural Center and the experiences that I've gained, I've learned every, every time I've had an interaction, how I can better hopefully have a future interaction or things that I need to work on myself a little bit more in recognizing. And so it's an iterative process. And so, I think that's been something that I've been able to take away because of the fact that I work in a space like this. Versus a corporate you know, entity or things like that. But because of this, it gives me a really unique perspective on how our society functions and what things we can do to try and really be as inclusive as possible for all. Meyer: So as your time in your role as director, what are the greatest challenges that you believe the center has faced? I know the pandemic probably threw a wrench in everything. Lai: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big one, right? I think having to pivot within a couple weeks, I think the university did an amazing job. You know--it's hindsight now knowing some of the impacts. But I think in Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 7 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 the moment, having to do that, definitely that was one challenge, right? In having to deal now, I think with students who have to relearn what it's like to be in college, ‘cause they really didn't really get that experience or relearn what it means to learn even. Because I think those expectations have shifted and changed. I would say also in my time here, I mentioned a little bit earlier, there is I think more of a--I wouldn't even call it a critical view of, but critical in the sense of like something that is a critique. Less-It's very critical. I think a lot of folks are questioning things now related to--let me think. Oh, I'm trying to, it's blank. It's not coming to my mind right now, but just even the necessity for diversity, equity, and inclusion there are-- Oh, critical race theories, CRT, that's one. Which I think has somehow--education has always been I think viewed in ways, understandably, because tax-- Public education, I'll speak to because tax dollars go into it, and so how can we be most sufficient and effective and so forth. And I get that. But even, you know, things like affirmative action which is, we don't have in California, but even those concepts and ideas of how do we outreach to underserved or underrepresented populations. Those things that I think were differences of opinion or approach with regard to policy has taken a very dark turn in the sense that it's very personal in a lot of ways. And I know and I'm not--I again, I was an engineer(ing major), so I didn't take any sociology or gender equity studies classes. But I think it may be second wave feminism but this, the personal is political, is a truism that I think is in a lot of ways where a lot of the policies and things that are being done are directly targeting certain groups. And so the challenge for me, and I've wondered this as well because I've seen states now, right? And their legislatures look at different ways and approaches, such that for example with regard to students that may go to university in Florida, are getting a very different experience when it comes to interacting or working (with) others. Partly because of what they can't necessarily discuss or talk about. I have colleagues, and I'm sure I think I heard from others that Offices of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion had to rename themselves because they were illegal now to be in some of those spaces. So I've seen that shift in the sense that I think I'm gonna be, I--my goal as an educator is to really help the up-and-coming generational students think differently or to be prepared for the work that they do. Now, it's gonna be compounded by the fact that based on your geography or location or where you go to school, you're gonna have a very different experience of things that you've been able to experience as a student. We often say that going to college is kind of a mini version of real life, but here you can make mistakes and the consequences aren't necessarily like, you know, a lot of times we try to find the developmental approach within Student Affairs. How do we do this differently? How do we, you know, it's meant to be a growing opportunity that oftentimes you don't get when you're out in quote unquote the real world. Things just kind of happen and you--that the consequences are what they are. So, my fear is that oftentimes now, if my goal is to have students be able to understand and interact with someone who has no idea or hasn't necessarily had these same experiences or similar types of experiences, doesn't have to be the same--what's that gonna mean then for our society as a whole? Right? Because again, depending on your geography or where you go to school, you're in a very different kind of educational experience compared to someone else who does. I think that where information comes from, there are some benefits with social media and other things where it has democratized and allowed multiple--even filming things, catching things that, police brutality and things like that. So a very democratized, but now the source of where things are and having some level of information literacy and recognizing where it's (media) coming from it, what's the purpose of what it is, and where's the quote unquote truth and where do you suss it out, is another challenge I think that I'm seeing as well in the work that we do. And trying to, we used to start with the same set of facts, and Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 8 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 now the question is, “Are we still in, are we talking about the same set of facts or not?” (laughs) And so there's again, some of that that I think sort of needs to happen. And so I see that play out in the work that we do because, you know I may start with like, “Hey, so this has been the experience,” and someone might say, “No, that's not.” And so then I want to learn more about where that is. But it's not necessarily always productive, I guess. And so that's where I see some of the of the challenges in the work that we're doing with these types of spaces, Cross-Cultural Centers or Multicultural Centers. Meyer: It's the politicization of something that shouldn't be. Yeah. Lai: Yeah. In a lot of ways. I mean, I could say this, you know, this notion of public health and how politicized even with regard to COVID, right? The notion of--and some of this is cultural you know it's natural for me to think in terms of the collective, because that's you know in Asian cultures broadly speaking there's a collectivist sort of mentality in how that's supported. America has a very individualistic streak, which is you know it's not a bad thing. I think where the challenge comes in is where does one's, where is one's freedom impinged upon and where it's not? And that's been debated for a long time with free speech and lots of other things, but it has been politicized even in areas like public health to a lot of degrees. And so that's, yeah. So those, they're not new challenges per se, but there are new approaches to how do we have these types of conversations, or how do we help educate and teach about these things in a way that hopefully is broadening and enlightening. So. Meyer: So what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexist with the expansion of identity specific spaces like the Black Student Center and the Latin@/x Center? Lai: Yeah, that's a great question and one that I wrestle with because I don't know if I necessarily have an answer myself. You know, I started at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC (University of California) Irvine which is one of the first centers, and this is the history that was drilled into me. Second only at the time at the UC system to a University of Washington, at a time when I think resources were scarce. And so, it made sense to start from a collective cross-cultural sort of center and space. And I would say even for, depending on where whatever campus you're on, either resources were tied or made sense that collectively these were cross-cultural or multicultural spaces. They weren't enough, you know. We have students, understandably within the Black communities, BIPOC, so Black, Indigenous, People of Color communities who said, you know, “Okay, this is a good start, but it's not meeting the needs that we have.” And so that's why these spaces then, you know, like a Black Student Center or other spaces have kind of evolved. The question then becomes: well where does then, once these things have evolved and come out of necessarily this space, what then becomes the role of this space where it started and how does it evolve and change? And that's what I've been wrestling with myself because--and I'm not the only one. University, UCSD, San Diego, they started with the Cross-Cultural Center and now they've got a Black Student Center, Indigenous Center, and all these other additional spaces. And so, it's been trying to figure out, besides programmatically, besides the history months or the heritage months, what are the ways in which they can interact one with another? And so, it's gonna be different on each campus. But I think the conclusion for me has been, you know, the Cross-Cultural Center is essential, especially if there's a belief and understanding, which a lot of my colleagues have, about the notion of intersectionality. We're more than just one-dimensional pieces. I'm, you know, I'm Chinese, but I'm also American. Identify as a cisgendered male. All of those things play with one another in the experiences that I have and/or the choices and decisions that I make. And in the same vein I think, there's always Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 9 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 gonna be a place for a cross-cultural center or multicultural center, because these unique and specific spaces are serving a purpose. They're helping Black students getting the support they need because they either, whether it's cultural validation, whether it's just being with someone who doesn't question (laughs) why you're there. Or isn't peppering you with questions about something they may not be familiar with, which, you know, naturally happens. “Oh, what about this? Why do you eat this food? What's that?” You know, those types of things. And I think in most situations it'd be great, but there is an instance where I think there's fatigue in having to explain yourself all the time or, and so sometimes it's nice to just be, when you go into a space. Which I can see there's why there are certain spaces, whether it's the Latin@/x Center and so forth. So, I think some of it depends on the landscape of the campus of where a particular space may be at. Here, on our campus, for a long, long time, we just had the Cross-Cultural Center, which is the first one, and it wasn't necessarily born out of protest. Students didn't demand it, it was just, as I understand the history, administrators had said, “You know, we want to be prepared for the 21st century student here in North County.” And so, we think this is important. So we, you know, create this space. Soon thereafter, I want to say it was the Pride Center, and then, or maybe the other way around, the Women's Center and then a Pride Center that, you know, were under student government, ASI, at the time. So those were the three centers for a long time. And then, you know Latinx students said, “We need a space. We're over fifty percent of the population, where our needs are not being met.” You know, and I for a long time, and I and because this is (laughs), I think I had a hard time sort of separating myself and not viewing it as a failure on my part, you know. And students would say, “Oh, it's not you, it's not you. We just need this space.” And I couldn't quite understand, “Well, I know you're saying it's not me, but what could I do to help support this population that we're not doing now?” And so, that was what was going on in my mind. And it took me a couple of well, it took a co--one person in particular and other colleagues to say, “You know, don't get caught up in that.” And eventually I was okay, right? Like, it makes sense that there are more of these spaces because that just provides additional support and resources for these communities. So, that should not be the issue, and you shouldn't get caught up in that. But, you know, it's hard and it--your pride takes a little bit of a hit when you're like: well, what am I not doing that is, that you need a separate space to occur? You know, in that same vein, and eventually there'll be most likely well, I know that the President (of CSUSM, Ellen Neufeldt) has agreed to an Asian Pacific Islander (and Desi American; APIDA) space here at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the programming that you know, is near and dear to me, doesn't mean I can't do it but, you know, instead of redundant programs, it'll probably go to a future APIDA center. And so, it's figuring out, I think what that role is. And I wish I could say I had a great answer, but I do--I think what I've resolved myself to, or resigned myself to understand--that's probably not the way right way to say it, but is that there will always, I think, be a place for a Cross-Cultural Center or Multicultural Center space. What we do in that is gonna vary. And I've had to adjust. So that's the themes that I shared earlier. And the purpose of, in our mission and how we kind of structure what we do is intentional because it avoids or tries not to step on sort of the toes of the other centers and spaces, right? They have their own things that they do and they support the students. We all have different lenses through which we try to do the same work. And so, my role I think, as a Cross-Cultural Center is how do we build community? How do we bring these spaces together? And being more of a connector is something I've kind of started to better understand as far as what I think this, the role of future cross-cultural center or multicultural center spaces that maybe Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 10 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 dealing with this might be is, is how do we connect these communities and keep them together in some way. And continue to find those gaps, those spaces where students may not-- An example is what if I'm multicultural or multiracial? I don't feel like I belong in the Black Student Center, or I don't feel like I belong in the Latin@/x Center if I'm both Black and Mexican. And so, I think that's where a space like the Cross-Cultural Center or a multicultural center could still serve as a purpose in exploring those identities, helping them to navigate the complexities of what that entails; as well as their gender, sexual orientation, all of that in helping them to decide that. So, I think that's what I've come to understand. But the--you know, the verdict's still out on what the (laughs) what that is, and our students keep changing. So, you know, there could be other things that we need to address and figure out as we move further along. But my hope ultimately is that whatever it is, that it'll still continue to serve the needs of the students that are coming to our university and to the institutions that they are applying to. Meyer: What direction do you think the CCC should grow in from here? Lai: Yeah. If I had my (laughs)-Meyer: If you had your, if you had your dreams. Lai: Of course. You know I think I would love to, and we're kind of moving in this direction, I would love to figure out better ways to support students financially. Whether it's through scholarships or other things. We are as part of I think this project as well, we're celebrating our 20th anniversary. Which you know, we're still pretty young. We're still kind of just getting out of our teen years, right? Into our twenties. But it's a great milestone I think, with regard to being here on this campus. And so, I think financially looking at ways in which we can support our students. I would love to expand our staff as well. I think-- t's funny, I've been the longest serving director, but I've also been a staff of one. And so, in some ways I wonder if I've, if I'd been successful, if there would've been more, other staff members a part of it. But I would love to see more staff members, because I think there just isn't you know-students' needs are getting more and more complex that require more time, and there's only one of me and I'd like to see other staff come in and be able to assist the students that are here, that may need that support. I think there are other areas that we can explore as well when it comes to, you know, we have a Disability Student Services, but their focus really is on providing the support for students to be successful. Not necessarily doing programming to help folks understand what those (services) are and how we can make the--make some changes or differences. People that are neurodivergent, there's just a lot of different areas and identities that haven't necessarily been explored. But I think those would be opportunities for a Cross-Cultural Center to kind of be able to provide space or to provide programming that can help other students understand not necessarily what it's like, but better understand those conditions and/or maybe consider different ways of thinking about how they, when they have the opportunity or are placed in a position where they can make a difference, that they're hopefully considering and thinking about those areas that they themselves perhaps are privileged in. Where they don't have to worry about or they don't have to think about it in any way. And so that level of work, I think in programming and approaching and supporting those communities, I think is other areas where we can see the Cross-Cultural Center sort of grow. I think there's the conversation about the divisiveness in politics in other ways that, you know, a big part of what I'm doing now and hopefully will continue to do, has been working with the Civility Campaign (program by the CSUSM Dean of Students) on our campus. They kind of, when I first started here at Cal State San Marcos, Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 11 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 the, at the time, this campaign started around the same time, so I've been connected to it for a long time. But I've seen the significance and importance of how do we have dialogue and conversation-particularly with someone who may just be of a completely different belief system--but hopefully still get nuggets of wisdom or at least try to understand one another. A lot of, I don't want to make or simplify to say if we just saw you know, held hands kumbaya, that it was gonna be that easy. I don't think it's that easy, but I think that is the work that is necessary for students, particularly at a time when perhaps they've come from very homogeneous communities or they just have never been introduced to someone. To be able to find ways in which those kinds of opportunities can help them to grow and be eventually a better graduate of Cal State San Marcos, because they've had experiences or programs that have introduced them to these types of things that they haven't necessarily done before. So, I think long-term those are some things I'm hoping that the Cross-Cultural Center can play an active role in supporting or perhaps being a big part of really proactively engaging our students in a way that again, makes those students that graduate from Cal State San Marcos really the premier students here in North County. And who go on to become leaders and folks that are making these decisions in the community. Meyer: I'm sure you have a lot, but could you share a few of your favorite memories from your time at the Cross-Cultural Center? Lai: Yeah. You know, it's hard to think about. I mean, there's so many different ones. I think I value the different student leaders that have worked with me. From the very first time, when we called them peer educators at the time. Because I'm a staff of one, I rely heavily on my student staff to really help in getting a lot of the work and the mission of the center done. And so, some of my fondest memories are those different folks that have worked alongside me. Getting to know them, getting to hear about their experiences here on campus. Now seeing them graduate as alumni and really kind of, you know, off in the world and kind of doing some amazing things. I, in Higher Ed you know, I recall after my fifth year that was the first year that I had a student that I knew was a freshman or a first-year student that I saw all the way through and graduate. You know, I've had other students that graduated along the way, but the--that was the first group that I knew from the first time they stepped foot into campus all the way through till they graduated, even transfer students as well. And so, that's one I think fond memory. I love the staff that, I love the staff that I work with now, but also even before when I was part of Student Life and Leadership, Dilcie Perez (formerly in charge of Student Life and Leadership) was my supervisor. And I think she instilled a lot of laughter and like just fun stuff in the work that was oftentimes can be hard and challenging. And so, those are some fond memories. We have a unique tradition here at Cal State San Marcos around Halloween, where a lot of folks dress up, in--within Student Affairs I should say. (laughs) But it's a big deal, and I don't think I fully realized it until I first came to this campus and experienced it for the first time. But some of the different traditions and things like that have been fun and interesting to see. I--commencement is always a fun time where a lot of the memories that I have that I can recollect. When I have had the chance, a lot of us volunteer and help support the program. So, being able to see them (students) cross the stage, see their families and watch them witness their students cross the stage. And again, a lot of them are first generation, first in their families (to graduate college) and the joy and the excitement that they see, those are some memories that I'll definitely keep for a long time. Because I think that is what grounds me. And I know a lot of my colleagues say this, but commencement Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 12 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 is kind of, it--the students, yes. But also seeing them achieve and be able to get to that point. And the excitement is also refreshing and kind of a reminder of the work and why we do it. So, when we deal with policy issues or just challenges with bureaucracy of the university, it's always nice to remember those moments because then it reminds at least me of what and why I do the work that I do, and why it's so critical and important. Or at least I would like to think that it's a big part of their experience that they have here at Cal State San Marcos. Meyer: Well, thank you so much, Floyd. You've been a pleasure to interview and yeah, thank you so much. Lai: Thank you. Thanks for taking the time. Meyer: All right. That was great. (laughs). Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 13 2024-02 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lai, Floyd. Interview transcript, April 10, 2023. Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai served as Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University from 2011 to 2023. In this Interview, Floyd discusses the growth and development of the CCC in conjunction with other student organizations. As a self-identified Chinese American, Lai addresses how his personal, educational, and professional background have informed one another. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-10 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Civil rights Education, Higher Human rights Racism -- California -- Irvine Student Success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en " target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_Transcript Activists and activism Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e6e8a1a710f12916198b024ac063e270.pdf 7c322713ce91543e8e7a18642d09ec22 PDF Text Text LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Ayana Ford: So, today is Monday, April 19th, 2021, at 1:02 p.m. I am Ayana Ford, a student at San Marcos and today I’m interviewing Floyd Lai for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between CSUSM Black Student Center and the CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Mr. Lai, thank you for being here with me today. Floyd Lai: Pleasure. Thank you, Ayana. Ford: I’d like to start by talking about your childhood a little bit. When and where were you born? Lai: I was born on the island of Oahu in Kahuku in Hawaii, and that was in 1974. Ford: Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Lai: Sure. My parents are immigrants, originally from Taiwan. I am the oldest of three sons, three boys. We moved around. My parents initially settled in Hawaii, and then we moved to Idaho, and then eventually to southern California by the time I was six. I have lived in California since about 1980, so pretty much consider myself a native in the sense of being in southern California for the majority of my lifetime. And I would say it was a pretty ordinary, I guess, childhood in the sense that, again, being the oldest of three boys, there were obviously some cultural components in the roles and responsibilities of what that entailed, being the eldest. I also had responsibility over my two younger brothers as well, just with regard to how we were growing up, and it was pretty common as far as an immigrant experience, keeping in mind both of my parents worked. And I think, at an early age, I—there’s a term that was called, not necessarily pejorative but it was a latch key kid. So, I had a key around my neck so that when I would walk home from school, I’d be able to get inside the house, and pretty much had responsibility for my brothers from an early age as well. Ford: I know that. I’m the youngest, so— [both laugh] So, how did that help you come to an understanding of your culture at all? How did your childhood help you come to understand your culture? Lai: Yeah. You know, I would say it was a part of my upbringing in the sense that it guided and dictated—and it was just par for the course, meaning that outside of any influence or education about some of the histories that we learn about at school, it was just part of my upbringing, right? So, being from a Chinese immigrant family, eating Chinese food, right? [chuckles] Everything was just taken as something that was innate and part of the way in which I was raised. I would say that the first instance that I recognized or noticed that perhaps I was different from others was probably not until my middle school years, in the sense that I think first through sixth in elementary school, the community in which I grew up—I grew up in Rowland Heights, California, which is in Los Angeles County. At the time, it was relatively pretty diverse, but I think the friends that I had were of different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different races. And as time progressed and if you were to go back to that community now, there has been a huge influx of immigration, particularly from China and Taiwan because of institutions, like there’s a large Buddhist temple in the adjoining city in Hacienda Heights, and we’ve seen some of the demographic shifts and changes. So, growing up in middle school was probably where I started noticing and gravitating towards individuals who were much like myself, who were also of Asian background or identity or descent. I was on the seventh grade, eighth grade basketball team. And Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 so, I would say that probably was my first introduction to other races, like Black individuals or Mexicans or Latinos at the time. But I didn’t necessarily have a good understanding of the differences when it came to race and ethnicity until very much later, probably not until I graduated from high school and got into college and started taking classes and/or having discussions about that. Ford: So, to follow up on that, during your childhood and adolescence, were you taught about Black history and the Black community? Lai: You know, the extent of that probably was Martin Luther King, Jr., right?; Black History month, limited to just the month of February. My earliest recollection—I think I may have done research on George Washington Carver, right? Learning about, I think it was peanut butter or a lot of, I think, the stories and notions of Black history that was primarily in our history books, right? And it was all the positive portrayals, right, or images of things and people, right? Obviously, since then and more recently with different projects like, I’m blanking. Is it the 1692 Project or things that are in the media now that talk about slavery and other things, right? My recollection of that when I was in elementary, middle, or even high school was maybe a short chapter, if that, on slavery and the Civil War, but never necessarily through a Black lens or a portrayal beyond just the significant notables like Martin Luther King, Jr., maybe some musicians, Louis Armstrong, things that we would hear about or note, but there was never an extended conversation about that. I played basketball, as I mentioned, in seventh and eighth grades. So, I knew Black students or teammates of mine. We didn’t necessarily hang out. We just played our basketball games and whatnot. But that was really the extent of it. So, we played basketball on the same team, but then beyond that, our circles didn’t necessarily overlap, one with another. Ford: So, after you came to San Marcos, how did that change? Prior to your coming here to San Marcos. Lai: Yeah. Coming to San Marcos as a staff member, I’ve had more—I’ve been out here at Cal State San Marcos for the last ten years. Prior to that, I worked at UC Irvine for about six years. And then, even before that, I graduated in 2000 from undergraduate, UC Irvine as well. That’s where I did my undergraduate program in environmental engineering. So, I was on a track or trajectory to go into engineering, in the engineering field. My first notion, I think in a broader sense, was in my undergraduate experience at UC Irvine. Well, so from a personal experience as an Asian American, Chinese American man, I have shared this story with others when I do workshops and presentations. But my first introduction to a personal impact was—I forget the year. I want to say 1995 or ‘6, per se. I was the recipient, on the receiving end at the time, of a hate incident through email. So, myself and others, back in the day—this is when the internet was still [laughs] kind of coming out—you had to go to a lab to jump on and connect. And there were localized areas and whatnot. But I received an email essentially saying, “I’m going to kill all you eff’in Asians. You ruin the curve,” things like that, that really started me on a trajectory and path to really be more reflective about my own personal identity as a Chinese, Asian American man. You know, “I just got this. What is this? Not sure,” you know. Come to find out later on, it was a student who obviously felt the need or desire to broadcast this message, this hateful message, to whomever was in the lab at the time. And the way he identified folks was if Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 they had an Asian sort of sounding last name. And those that were there, myself included, were the lucky recipients of that. So, that started me on a trajectory, just kind of where I am today. I mean I think that would be a critical, pivotal point in the work that I do within multicultural affairs, and doing the work that I do in the Cross-Cultural Center. It was a personal moment where I started thinking why was I the recipient? What caused this, right? To think about issues in terms of race. And it’s through that soul searching and connections to the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine that I got involved. Then I said I wanted to explore that a little bit more. I was involved in various clubs. I was part of the Hawaii club. I’m not myself native Hawaiian, but it was something. I was born there, and it was something that I gravitated towards. And it was through those interactions that I started getting involved and going to programming with the Cross-Cultural Center at that space and Center, which I eventually got to work at prior to coming here to Cal State San Marcos, when I worked there for about six years. I got introduced to the Black Student Union, right? MECHA which is a student organization that often helps to—We call them umbrella organizations. They are the political, social wing of the experiences at UC Irvine at the time: Asian Pacific Student Association; again, these larger groupings. And so, I worked at the Center as a volunteer initially, then as an intern, and then I was involved in a program called REACH. They’ve changed their name since, but it was called Reaffirming Ethnic Awareness, Community, Harmony. So, I learned about workshops. I got really deeply involved in understanding, for example, the different experiences within the various communities, whether it was the Asian community, the Black community, the LatinX community—LatinX wasn’t a term at the time, right—so, the Latino community, and the different sort of experiences. I would say also during that time at UC Irvine was the first time I took an Asian—So, I was an engineer. So, that was my trajectory and pathway. It’s very fixed. You can’t deviate too much, right? Ford: Yeah. Lai: You know, you’ve got your sciences classes. You’ve got your engineering classes. But, on occasion, I had the ability to take some of electives. And so, one of the electives I chose was an Asian American Studies class which was helpful for me, as well, as I was just trying to get into and understanding of some of those issues and areas. So, between my experience at the CrossCultural Center at UC Irvine, some of the classes I was able to take, the interactions that I had, obviously hanging out at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine, I got to meet the leaders of the Black Student Union from the American Indian Student Association. These were folks that I was able to run in circles or I would see on a regular basis. They had retreats and other opportunities for student leadership exposure. And so, that’s where I was able to expand and grow my experience. And at the time I wasn’t sure if I was going into the field of higher education that I am in now. It was just something that was supplementary to understanding some of those things at that time in my own personal development, of my own identity, and in relation to other people. Ford: So, as you mentioned before, you had talked a little bit about how the different movements were. How has Black social justice and activism such as Civil Rights Movement, Feminism, and Black Lives Matter Movement affected you? Lai: Yeah. I would say that’s a more recent, and I would say it’s an ongoing, evolutionary progression for me, right? Let me start more recently and maybe work backward. I would say this past summer, last summer, with George Floyd—And, again, he was not the first and nor was Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 he the last, as we’ve seen more recently with the continued impacts of anti-Black racism occurring. I would say, however though, that that coupled with the pandemic and other things, right, I think galvanized. And we saw our country and nation as a whole get to a turning point, right? And so, that’s something that I would say is the strong notion of anti-racism, of anti-Black racism particularly, and how it’s situated within the context of my understanding of racism and discrimination broadly, was really galvanized there. The Black Lives Matter Movement I know occurred a couple of years earlier, right, with Ferguson and some of those things. So, there has been a steady, I think, beat in my own personal understanding in history of the Black experience and where I fit and situate, right? I often felt as if I was a bystander to some degree, someone who’s looking outside looking in and trying to understand but, obviously, not recognizing those experiences personally. And there’s a certain level of privilege in that too, right? So, because I’m not Black and I don’t have to go through some of those things, I have the luxury of not having to worry about those things, right? So, yes, it’s horrible. Yes, it’s awful. And I felt a lot of empathy for situations and crises like this. And why does this continue to occur? But I would say that, going back to George Floyd, that was a pivotal point in my own personal experience in recognizing—one, because I mean my first name is Floyd, so it was weird hearing so-and-so was on the neck of Floyd. And so, there was this kind of weird connection as well, because his last name just happens to be my first name. And so, there was almost this personal connection now because I would see Floyd in narratives and things like that about the experiences with police. And so, it was very personalizing in that way. So, I think that, and then going back to Black Lives Matter, I would say my background and trajectory and pathway, especially in this field of social justice work, I was never—compared to probably some of my colleagues—I was never a super activist, right? I wasn’t out there chanting or demonstrating. There were a few times I was part of marches or walks, but nothing that felt very heavily involved. Part of the reason why is because I think, also personally, my purpose was I’m going to get an engineering degree. This is all nice but that’s not my focus. And then, as I came to my own sort of personal consciousness and awakening myself, I started to see how education could be an opportunity to better understand. And I felt like I could have an impact on things as well, right? Personally, and professionally, in a lot of ways. So, going back to your initial question, I think those experiences have continued to evolve for me. I think there are better nuances in the sense—or better is not the right word. I have more nuance in understanding that experience and how I fit into that, right? This last summer, there is more of a commitment. Now, anytime we make a commitment or a desire to change, we always have to check ourselves to see if we’re still in that same frame of mind. But I have a stronger commitment to trying to dismantle anti-Blackness and try to dismantle racist notions. And even more so now, going back to my identity as an Asian American, in what ways does my own culture and my own upbringing, does my own lens, as an Asian American, help to contribute to some of that, right? I was having a conversation with some colleagues of mine and thinking back, when I was younger, going back to that kind of thing, there was this rule about who I was able to date. Right? Who would be acceptable to date? So, obviously, my parents are Chinese. So, if you can find someone, and I identify as heterosexual, so if you find a nice Chinese girl, right, that’s at the top of the list, if you can find someone that you want to date. And at the bottom of the list, right, was someone who was more darkcomplected or Black, right? That was not in my wheelhouse or realm. And so, a lot of that sentiment that seemingly is innocuous—I mean, my parents are immigrants and so this notion, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 right, coming from Taiwan where there’s not a lot of people of color, right? They’re mostly Chinese or indigenous individuals but there were still notions of colorism, right? The darker the skin, don’t be out in the sun too much because not only is it bad for you but also you don’t want to be too dark-complected. So, a lot of those things that I took, I viewed different then, I look at now in the lens of how that can contribute to notions of anti-Blackness, right, and what that role looks like. And then, I’m a father of two young girls. And so, what is now my role as someone who can influence, particularly those in my own family, what those thoughts and ideas look like? How do I have and hold conversations with my children and social media, everything. Compared to when I was younger, you had to read the newspaper, watch television. There were only three news channels, right? Cable was satellite media, as I was getting a little bit older. So, there were only so many sources of news. Now, there are so many places where you can get information. And so, how do I structure those conversations or perhaps take opportunities to have conversations with them about these diverse issues, racially, or around sexual orientation, around gender, right? And I’ve been surprised. I mean, a lot of them have been reading books that have exposed them to a lot of concepts that I probably wouldn’t have been reading prior, because the authors weren’t writing about those topics, right, about gender fluidity or any of those things. They’re much more comfortable in using that language than I was at their age, at that time. I don’t know if I answered your question? It’s kind of long-winded. But those are just, I mean, just some initial thoughts about some of those movements and around social justice in general. Ford: Mm-hmm. You answered the question perfectly. Thank you. [chuckles] Lai: Okay. Ford: So, what role did you play in the creation of the Black Student Center? Lai: Yeah. Other than perhaps a cheerleading role on the sidelines—So, I’ll give you a little bit of history, just also for the purposes of this recording. You know, the Cross-Cultural Center is— not was, but is the first established now what’s called the Student Life Center. So, we were established in 2003. So, at the time, with no other Centers or spaces, we kind of had to do everything. And again, this wasn’t me. It was my predecessors, right? And so, once the CrossCultural Center—I think soon thereafter it was the Women’s Center, now currently called the Gender Equity Center, Pride Center. And then there was a huge gap, and probably within the last 5-7 years, the LatinX Center, and then most recently, the Black Student Center. So, my role has been as sort of a cheerleader of it. We had a student who worked as student staff. Her name is Chanel Bradley. She’s an alum of Cal State San Marcos. She revived the Black Student Union, BSU, during her time here. And she worked with Robert Aiello-Hauser who is the director of the LGBTQA Pride Center in a lot of those things. At the time, there were just the three: the Women’s Center, the Cross-Cultural Center, and the LGBTQA Pride Center. So, when I came in 2011, we overlapped. Chanel was I think in her second to last or last year, right? So, she was involved in developing. And since there wasn’t a Black Student Center at the time, I was sort of the support mechanism, right, along with some of the other Centers in providing support for the Black students. So, we played roles in supporting them programmatically, trying to work with them. If you were to come in person to the Cross-Cultural Center, I helped to develop things like, at the time when it was called Black History month, now it’s called Black Excellence month, but Black History month. And in my early couple of years being on campus, I was focused on how Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 do we create space to celebrate or to discuss and talk about these issues. [starts to adjust his chair. Both laugh.] I’m sorry. My chair keeps sinking and I’m not doing anything, and so I keep having to adjust. So, my role was really more advisory, if that. Trying to play a support role. Trying to support our students. This is even before the establishment or the creation of a Black Student Center. I would say, then, after that, I still continued to have relationships supporting the Black Student Union. At the time, the Cross-Cultural Center was a subset of what was known then as the Student Life and Leadership or SLL. And SLL, now called the Student Leadership and Evolvement Center or SLEC, was in charge of student organizations. So, I as the CrossCultural Center, had responsibility over some of the student cultural organizations, of which BSU was one. And so, that was where my relationship continued to build with them, trying to support them, do leadership, trying to support the students who were a part of that. Around that time, as the LatinX Center got some momentum and eventually was established, right, there were students in the Black Student Union who said, “Hey.” The argument one could say is, for the LatinX Center, the population at campus was almost 50%—it was pretty high—that identified as Hispanic or LatinX or Latino. And so, there was a need for resources and support. On the other side of the spectrum, and this is not to take away from Native American or American Indian students, Indigenous students, the second lowest were Black students, I think hovering around 23%. And so, students at the time had expressed an interest and desire to say, “We need a space too because there’s not enough of us.” It was not so much because there’s so many, but it was a lack of visibility and a lack of resources to recruit. And I came to learn later on, it was an issue with some of the reputation of the area, right, whether or not it’s a welcoming and inviting space, whether or not there was a critical mass of faculty or staff so students would feel like, yes, I want to come to Cal State San Marcos. So, my role was very much tangential, was very much on the outsides trying to support it, recognizing that students needed additional resources and support in order to be able to provide them a space to congregate, a space to be able to discuss about issues that are specific to the Black community. BSU did that, right, to some degree. It just wasn’t necessarily as organized or had the resources and the staffing and the dedicated time that I think John, the current director John, is able to put forth in helping to support that community, right? And so, that’s the extent off my experience in relation to the creation and establishment of the Center. It was truly student developed and student driven. They organized and decided that they wanted to create a space. They were going to go and make a demand to the president, President Haynes at the time, and were strategic about when and how to demand or ask, right, [chuckles] strategically about the need for this. And I would say President Haynes, at the time, I think it—I wouldn’t say caught her off guard. I think it was very impactful because now she was on the spot and she could also challenge them and say, “Okay. What are the needs? Tell me what you need. Draft a proposal.” So, she put it right back to the students. And so, the students then went to work and they said, “Okay. This is what needs to happen.” And then, with support from faculty and staff, the Black Student Center was eventually established here at Cal State San Marcos. Ford: So, you helped support everyone. [chuckles] Lai: Yeah. Yeah. Ford: So, what did the student staff involved in the creation of the Black Student Center feel like they needed directly? I know you went into a little detail about it, but is there anything? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Lai: Yeah. I’m very aware and I’ve actually shared with student activists, I say I’m here to support but I’m also part of the institution. [laughs] So, I think they were savvy enough to know like okay, I can only share this much with Floyd. So, I don’t know all the details of the thing. What I recall though was some of the things that I shared with you, that there was a lack of visibility for Black students and therefore there was a sort of spiral effect because at least the argument at the time was if I don’t see people like myself or other Black students, why do I want to come here to Cal State San Marcos? There’s no place for me to feel like I belong. So, a sense of belonging was one. A sense of programming that was dedicated. I shared with you, prior to that, I put together a Black History Month event about being Black in America and we kind of cobbled together some programming that would talk about those issues. But I wasn’t Black, right? So, I relied heavily on Black faculty or staff or even the students, to come up with ideas and concepts that could speak to that experience. But again, I was from an outsider view. I’m not Black and I don’t have that experience so I can’t speak to it. And, probably, this is just my take on it, there’s not a sense of authenticity or even—credibility is not the right word, but just authority as a Black individual to say this is what we need. I was kind of like “Hey. How can we help put this together programmatically so that there’s some visibility.” But I wasn’t—again, not being Black myself. So, I think that was another piece, seeing some additional programming that spoke to the community as opposed to from an outsider lens trying to see and fill a void that was there. I think there was also a desire for just a space. I mean, I think that’s where it always stems from. And I’m very cautious too, because I think any time you advocate for a Center or a space, if your only argument is we need a space, okay, well what’s that space supposed to do? Because there is strength, obviously, in numbers. But you could hang out in the dining hall. You can hang out outside and carve out your own space. So, what is the need for a Center? And so, I think they wanted to look at resources, ways in which tied to student success, to graduation rates. So, those are some things that I think eventually made it into the initial proposal and/or if not part of the demands into the proposal. And, you know, I think students had a lot of support from faculty and staff, as far as hearing their concerns and then being able to articulate that in a way to eventually formulate the initial plans for the movement towards an establishment of the Black Student Center on campus. Ford: So, what did you think the university administration communicated was their vision for the Black Student Center? Lai: I think they communicated that there was a desire to have it. I don’t know if they necessarily dictated what it was going to be. In my experience, to some degree, I think that as an administrator you’re looking at every piece, right? Where is it going to be? I mean, just because the president of an institution or a university says “Yes, it’s going to happen” doesn’t mean all the answers are … [next few words unintelligible due to poor reception] Yes, it’s going to happen. Now figure out how it’s going to work. . . . I think there was a commitment or a desire to meet the students, what they’re wanting to have. And I’ll be the first to say I think students have a lot of power, more so than they often think, when it comes to political will and capital because—And not to say that just because you could do it, you should. But because there’s the desire there, they articulated a good reason for why there was a need for a Black Student Center that was compelling enough that I think that the institution said “Okay. We’re going to do that.” Right? And so, the commitment was yes, we’re dedicated to this. It’s one of our values. Now, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 whether or not and there’s going to be personalities and histories of whether or not you believe what the president is saying or doesn’t say or the rest of the administration, there was definitely a commitment though on the heels of a LatinX Center being established, that there was the need because these two populations, both the Brown and Black populations, had different systemic issues, right? Whether it was retention as I mentioned earlier, or student success when it came to graduation rates, there was a desire. And so, both of these Centers actually stemmed or started from a—and this gets too much into the nitty gritty, but they came up through Student Academic Support Services. And so, their focus was primarily on student success. Whereas for me, in the Cross-Cultural Center, Gender Equity Center, and Pride Center, we all came up through different ways. The Gender Equity and Pride Center or Women’s Center came up through Associated Students. And so, it was very much student driven, student funded, right? That was funding stream. The Cross-Cultural Center was established under Student Life, under this engagement in student activities, that kind of thing. And the Black Student Center, LatinX Center, came under Student Academic Support Services. Now, they all overlap in a lot of ways, but it was very targeted, right? When you think of Student Academic Support, you’re thinking testing materials, time management, skills that were necessary for student success. And so, I think those were some elements that there was a dedication to, right, by the institution, by the university. So, we want these spaces to fall under this area because we want to increase the student success of both Black communities as well as Latino communities. So, I think that was what was communicated and conveyed by the institution. The rest of the details were left up to the person in charge at the time, right, to develop and see through what that would look like. Currently—and I would say this is more recently—my current supervisor, the Associate Vice President of Student Life, Dr. Gail Cole-Avant—she came on probably around the same time, no, about a year or two after the Black Student Center. So, prior to that, we all reported to different people. And so, that also meant that there was different focus and different priorities for each of our spaces. And so, this reorganization with the Vice President of Student Affairs, Dr. Checa, to combine and create this new space where all the Centers were consolidated as a result of some external reviews was, I think, in a good way the university saying, “We need to do better. And this is our way to make sure that we are all aligned in moving forward,” because it kind of felt like we were going in three different directions, right, because ASI, Student Government, they have an agenda, a mission, a focus. My area around student leadership and student life is different. And then Black Student Center and the LatinX Center around student success and academics. So, they’re kind of different. They definitely overlap but they’re on different trajectories. By bringing them together, I think the institution is also saying that there’s a commitment to doing better, to moving towards success in aligning the resources, helping. We all support one another. We’re all staffs of one, to a certain degree. We rely heavily on graduate assistants and undergraduate students who work in our spaces. So, us leveraging and supporting one another I think provided a pathway to be able to move forward in a way that perhaps the Black Student Center wasn’t able to do prior. Ford: So, do you know of any pushback, internal or external, against the opening of the Black Student Center? Lai: You know, I think with any creation of new space where resources are being allocated, there are always going to be detractors and individuals who feel like is this the best use of our resources, right? I would say, from my lens where I was situated, there was not necessarily so Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 much pushback per se as much as it was trying to understand what the purposes were, right? We knew we could have a Black Student Center. I was actually—just as far as my connection to the Center and I forgot about this—I was on the committee that selected the first director, right, or was invited to be a part of that. So, we knew at the time that the director was really going to set the stage, especially being the inaugural director for a brand-new space. This individual would have to articulate the vision; would be able to link and connect with those that were on campus, both those that support it and perhaps even those that didn’t; and be able to pool those resources together; more importantly—and I think this was probably the priority—really build a rapport and a relationship with students, right, and student organizations because even if you build it, if they don’t come, then, you know—. So, you really need to help to let students know what is the purpose, why is it here, why it’s important, and to build those relationships. So, I would say that that was where our focus was. Outside of that, I don’t think that I was aware of. I wasn’t involved in any particular pushback. Was there? I’m sure there was, right? Others that may have said, I think—and it’s the same sort of trope—White students, and I use that broadly, right? But where is our White Center, right, because if you’ve got a LatinX Center, you’ve got a Black Student Center, where is the White Center? So, a lot of these things started coming through perhaps, right? Again, those were often funneled through the Office of Inclusive Excellence at the time. And so, I wasn’t necessarily a part of those sort of conversations or comments. But I will say that once a Center is established, then you start to get “Well, what about us? What about our Center? Where’s the Middle Eastern Center? Or where’s the Muslim Center, right, where we can pray? What about the Asian American Center, APIDA Center? What about the Jewish Center for the Jewish students on campus?” And so, I think it’s not so much pushback but it’s more of the “What about us now? What now?” Now that we’ve started this precedent, what does that mean? And so, I think there may have been obviously some conversations and discussions, maybe even some disagreements around that approach as well. But, beyond that, I didn’t necessarily hear any specific pushback to that because I think students had done a good job in I think articulating it. They had worked really closely with faculty. And also, the Black Faculty and Staff Association, they really helped to drive that home. So, I think, collectively, there was a desire to see that this would be successful. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, speaking of the opening, were you able to attend the grand opening? Lai: I try to remember. [laughs] That was a couple of years ago. I think I was in the back. And I don’t remember what year you are in school. Have you been? It’s on the 4th floor— Ford: Yeah, I’ve been. [chuckles] Yeah. Lai: —which is right by the stairwell. There’s not a lot of space and room in general, right? Ford: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lai: So, I think it was up there. They did a ribbon cutting ceremony up there. I recall being kind of in the back [indicates behind him with both arms] because there’s only so much space you can have, right, in front, of where it was. And that’s my recollection because I think there was a photo that I saw on a website way back when, when it was first established, or there may still be one in the archival footage, of the first director and then also with President Haynes doing some ribbon cutting and ceremonial things with the Center. But, after that, the first, his name was Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Anthony Jett. I, along with some of the other directors for the Centers, we all collaboratively work together. And so, I would have opportunities, right, to connect with the first director in trying to figure out programmatically different ideas, different approaches, and ways to look at the situation and how we can ensure the success of the Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, how did it feel the first time you visited the Center? You have any [last word unintelligible] Lai: Yeah. Well, so I’ve been here long enough that, you know, that space prior—there was some work that had to be done. That used to be the meditation stress-free zone, I guess. It was meant to be a prayer space, initially. So, it has undergone some renovation. But if you ever go up to the bathroom that’s right there as well—because there used to be a display case—and so they had removed it and created space so the folks could actually access it. There’s a gender-neutral bathroom or single stall use bathroom up there. But you’ll notice it’s different from others because there’s actually a—oh, I’m forgetting what the Islamic term is for it—but a wash station. So, you can sit. And so, the intent was that for those, particularly those, of our Muslim faith that we had a dedicated space for spirituality, prayer. Sometimes, it was a nap space, right, but for meditation. So, it was converted from that. And so, it’s right above the Cross-Cultural Center when you look at the specs. They did a really great job with the small amount of space that was there, right? I would say also, too—and being all transparent as well—having a space is important. Where the space is located is also important. So, we ran out of room on the 3 rd floor. There was no other way to chop up. The LatinX Center got wedged in between the CrossCultural Center and the Gender Equity Center. It used to be called the Social Justice—It was meant to be a training space, and they made [words cut off. Maybe “it into”?] the LatinX Center, right? And in the same vein, we can’t have a Black Student Center halfway across the campus. It has to all be in the same space, but we ran out of room. So, it’s on the 4th floor. And so, the fact that they converted it, I mean it’s a beautiful space. You have nice views. You can see it. It’s a small space, right? It can get crowded real quickly, especially if you get a critical mass, like a lot of our spaces, but just in general. And it’s right up on the top so there’s a lot of visibility as folks are walking past and go through. What I will say, though—and this is something that I think all Centers and spaces struggle with—if you see a community of people in the space, there’s always this question of do I belong here or don’t I, right? And so, I did hear early on, right, some of the challenges were “Oh, I’m not Black. I can’t go in the space. [chuckles] Should I set foot inside?” Even though if you want to learn about—Just because it’s called the Black Student Center, it’s focused on Black issues and other things that affect the Black community, but it’s not limited to individuals who identify as Black. And so, that has always been a tension, right, when it comes to who can come into the space, who’s allowed to step through the doors. Do I feel comfortable? Some of that we, as directors of our spaces, we try to make it as inviting as much as we can. But, ultimately, it’s up to that student to step through that door [chuckles] and take that step to go inside that space. So, you know, it was a beautiful space. They had a great computer lab, selfpublish stations. It was very tiny so there was one office and one desk. There was a small kitchenette and other things that you would normally want to see in a student-centered space for individuals. So, yeah, it was an exciting time. I would say, like any new spaces on campus, we want to make sure that they’re successful. And people hung out there. I will say, right, so just being in the Cross-Cultural Center and as these spaces have evolved and developed, people that Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 we normally would have seen previously in some of our spaces then started to go and gravitate, right? So, if there were Black individuals who at one point prior hung out in the Cross-Cultural Center, they now felt like—well, I don’t know if they felt like, but I would maybe see them upstairs now, right? I would have to go upstairs to connect with them versus before they would be just be right behind me, whether on couches or something like that. I could just say, “Hey, how’s it going?” and connect with them. So, that’s all part of the shift that I think that happened with student spaces, and where you feel comfortable, where you feel like you belong. And those are always dynamic, and they change, depending on the students when they come in and how they pass on orally [next few words are cut off] . . . students hang out. And then, all of a sudden you start to get some of these myths about where people should or shouldn’t be with regard to that. Ford: So, can you tell me a little bit about the early focus of the Black Student Center’s programs, and different initiatives that they did during the day? Lai: Yeah. What I recall—and, again, I wasn’t integral in the design, because Anthony Jett, the first director, really dictated a lot of that, but in my conversations with him there were a few themes that I recognized, right? One, I think, was leveraging the experience of the community in North County, which—I don’t think North County—Not to say that there aren’t Black communities, but it’s not predominantly an area regionally known for that. And so, part of it was establishing relationships. So, I want to say the NAACP has a chapter, I think, in North County or maybe in Vista or nearby. Mira Costa has centers or spaces. And so, Mira Costa does a Martin Luther King, Jr. Day of Service, right, for example, which at our campus we don’t do. We have Cesar Chavez, at the time. We do now. And so, there were—I think, Anthony, some of his first parts were really establishing those relationships because, again, there had not been a Black Student Center prior. And so, those relationships weren’t necessarily there, or the focus and taking the time to focus on those relationships weren’t necessarily there. I also think that, wherever possible, the director would try to help with recruitment. So, when we think about outreach on our campus, oftentimes these occur seventh, eighth grade, maybe high school. And so, he would spend a lot of his time either going to high school or conferences or fairs to try and let them know about the fact that there was a Black Student Center and that, yes, there are Black students and a Black community, even though it’s small, at Cal State San Marcos. It was establishing relationships with organizations like the NAACP or other institutions. It was really getting involved in the community. And that’s something, I think from what I observed, was something he spent a lot of his time doing, right? Secondary to that, and that’s where we often connected, was the programmatic nature of what was the focus and what was it going to look like. And he—and I’m forgetting what his affiliation is—but he was part of one of the Divine Nine. It may have been Omega Psi, Omega Phi? I haven’t been on campus, so my Greek is— Omega Psi Phi, I think it is, one of the Black fraternities. He himself was a member, so he built relationships, right, and brought on the fraternity and helped in those efforts, strengthened those pieces with regard to community, tried to have programming with students and work collaboratively with the Black Student Union. Student organizations, they ebb and flow [laugh] depending on who the leadership is. Sometimes, they’re really strong and sometimes people are busy and so there’s not a lot of traction. So, whatever the leadership was at the time, I think he tried to forge relationships with them as well. So yeah, I think those were the efforts. I think also Transcribed by Melissa Martin 11 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 knowing, and I shared with you early on, when I came on and there was no other Center and space, I primarily drove a lot of the History Months or the Heritage Months. And so, with the establishment of the Black Student Center now, there could be a focus. And that became their responsibility or purview to some degree, if they wanted to do programming or things like that and how they might be able to support community, create community, create opportunities for folks to gather. Those were all efforts that I think Black History Month, Black Excellence Month now, those are some of the programming efforts and focus that he was in charge of. I want to say he started in August, in the summer, so he had a really quick pivot time to try and get going because usually with planning like this, for any programming, a couple months in advance you want to be there. So, he was scrambling, not only trying to build those relationships, but also create some sort of programming that would work. So, we often would leverage and say, “Oh yeah. We’ve got this program. Let’s support one another,” or things like that, in helping to move that work forward and increasing the visibility of the Center and space. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, current, and previously, have there been any collaborative efforts between the Cross-Cultural Center and the Black Student Center? Lai: There have. I mentioned earlier, more recently, I would say we have looked at different ways to view those collaborations. So, first and foremost, the Cross-Cultural Center does a program called the Social Justice Summit which is a weekend retreat to talk about issues of social justice, to explore identity. How does that connect with the choices and decisions we make to look at power and privilege? And then, it’s a three-day conference, so by the last day of the summit/retreat, we are looking at what does that mean? How do we become an ally? So, all the Centers, including the Black Student Center once they came online, were all invited collaborators with that sort of social justice programming. It’s not only signature programs but it’s also a way that all of us intersect across our different programming areas. So, that’s definitely one area that I would say he was invited to. But again, he had so much on his plate, I don’t know if we were necessarily able to leverage that at the time when he first came onboard with the Black Student Center. Since then—and I’ll speak probably more recently and actually this is going to be tomorrow—we are doing a program tomorrow called Beyond Just Us: Empathy and Justice Across Communities, and that’s a collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and the Black Student Center. Now, that has also been a shift in our space. And I don’t know. We’re not talking about the Cross-Cultural Center, but we started to do more programming in the absence of an Asian Pacific Islander Desi American-dedicated space. And that’s not us. We have a lot of students who identify, that hang out in our space: Filipino, Chinese, otherwise. But, in the absence of an actual space, we’re doing programming because there’s still going to be a need for that. So, that’s a program defining diaspora, a APIDA identities. That’s a program series we do within our space. And in light of the recent assaults and attacks on Asian American communities, and sometimes by perpetrators who were perceived as Black, we’ve seen an increase in the solidarity marches and/or the ways in which both of these communities have come together, right? And so, tomorrow is an example of where we’re looking at what does that intersectionality look like between Asian and Black communities? What has that history been, right? In the description, we talk about this trope. I don’t know when you were born, Ayana, but I was in high school during the 1992 riots, Rodney King, when the policemen were acquitted and the aftermath of all that, or actually leading up to all that, right, what happened as a result of his beating. And Transcribed by Melissa Martin 12 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 at the time—again, so this goes back to your very first question about my lens and stuff in high school—that was probably another point, just looking at those relationships because I remember having arguments with my Korean friends like “Why are you going to L.A.?” I’m not anti-gun. I’m not a fan of having any firearms in general, right? That’s not for me to deal with. And I remember having heated conversations with them about why are you going to Korea Town. Just stay safe! And they’re like “No. This is our livelihood, so we need to protect ourselves.” Well, anyway, there was this trope. There was this “It’s Black against Asian,” right, because L.A., and then if you go to Korea Town, those are the businesses that were being looted or specifically targeted. And so, that trope has reemerged again, right? “Oh, these attacks against Asian American communities, they’re all perpetrated by Black people.” And so, there’s this thing where, again, looking at White supremacy in a broader context, things that I’m starting to learn more about now, that it’s pitting two different groups against one another rather than looking at the larger issues and systemic issues that are happening that are shared across both communities. And so, because of that, that’s what we’re going to be exploring a little bit tomorrow, right, is kind of demystifying that trope, recognizing where each of these communities have some commonality, where they can stand in solidarity, how we can feel like we can be empathetic but also be accountable, right, to those things, and the complicated histories, right? I talk about how Asian Americans can sometimes perpetuate that notion of anti-Blackness. So, what is our role in that, and then where does that apply when the perceived perpetrators are they themselves Black, right? It’s not about blaming but looking at the bigger picture. So, that’s just another more current example, yet to happen tomorrow, that we’re going to be putting on. And I look forward to possibly great relationships now with John being the current director and because of the structures that I mentioned earlier in our conversation, where we work more closely together than we have previously. We’re being able to see more opportunities to collaborate and to do some programming between the Black Student Center and the Cross-Cultural Center, and that it’s more targeted, right? Another one that didn’t happen this year but perhaps the next year— one thing that we do in the Cross-Cultural Center to differentiate ourselves from some of the other spaces is we have a focus on advocacy and activism. What does that look like? We’re not going to dictate, this is how you are an activist or not, [laughs] you’re an activist. But we do believe that I think students need to know about what are some models. What are some strategies? What are—you know, protests are important, and it definitely has a place in creating change. It’s not the only way to create change. It’s the most visible way, and I think oftentimes students and others conflate that if I’m going to be an activist, I have to be out on the streets. [laughs] And so, we’re trying to provide different venues and avenues for exploring what activism and advocacy looks like. Also, as a tangent—and this goes back, sort of connected—but I’ve been a part of my professional associations and I went to conferences, and one of the things that struck me was that when a lot of these Black Lives Matter protests were occurring, it was a student who was at Stanford. He was an engineer. He was a Black student. But he talked about “I go to these protests, and I got arrested. I wasn’t expecting to be arrested, but I got arrested. And then, the rest of the semester, I had to deal with going to court, working with my lawyer,” all these things that, in the moment, he hadn’t thought about necessarily, or maybe he thought about but he didn’t think it all the way through. And so, those were all things that caused me to think about “Okay, we need to do more to help educate our students so that it’s not like ‘Hey, come with me. We’re going to go do this.’” It’s more like “Okay. If you are going to go protest and Transcribed by Melissa Martin 13 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 you might get arrested, what are some practical things you should know about before you go there, right?” all those things. Anyway. So, having said that—that was a lot—we, as part of that program of the Activist Lab, which is another program series we do—we were going to explore the legacy of John Lewis. So, this year, in particular, the library has—their read is the book They Came for Us, by George Takei, which is a graphic novel, and the power of graphic novels. And so, March, the book by John Lewis, is a three-part book, talks and illustrates similarly and actually was inspiration, I believe, for the George Takei book, They Came for Us. So, we were going to work with the Black Student Center, going all the way back to your first question for that collaboration, of trying to do a book discussion about March, right? What was John Lewis’s legacy? How did he, at his young age, decide to do what he did when it came to protesting and sitting in diners where he wasn’t supposed to be? So, again, this was just through a lens of trying to understand strategies, looking at models or individuals who could be models of what activism looks like and how do they come to those decisions. But we needed to postpone that, but that’s another example of a program where we worked with the Black Student Center or will be working with the Black Student Center in identifying programmatic opportunities and connections. And there will continue to be opportunities because very much all of our work is very intersectional in nature. We all believe that I’m not just an Asian identified individual. I’m male. I’m heterosexual or straight, right? All those identities impact one another and sometimes they coincide with some of these other spaces like the LatinX Center or the Black Student Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. Lai: Yeah. Ford: I look forward to hearing more about those programs. Lai: Yeah. [laughs] Ford: So, do you know why the Black Student Center was moved from Student Success to Student Life? Lai: Yes. I think part of it was, again, a restructuring to leverage resources. I think there was—I won’t get too much into it, but I reported up to the Vice President of Student Affairs, Dr. Lorena Checa. However, we all reported differently to different supervisors. And so, that in and of itself causes—so, I may have a different focus or approach than Student Success has an approach, right? And so, we just had different ways in which we’re doing it— [reception starts to become very choppy] Ford: Can you hold off one second? [seems to be trying to figure out how to improve reception] Lai: —instead of going in three different directions, we feel like we’re all going in the same direction. Oh, sure. Ford: So, why was the Black Student Center moved from the Student Success to Student Life? Lai: Yes. My short answer would be that it was a leveraging of resources. Whereas reporting to three different associate vice presidents, by going to a singular associate vice president or supervisor, and then to the vice president of student affairs, we are in lockstep to some degree. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 14 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 We still have a lot of autonomy but we’re moving in the same direction, whereas before we may have been going in three different directions because we each had a supervisor who may have had a different approach or had a thought about what we should be prioritizing. Consolidating those efforts, in my estimation, has helped us to really focus in on what is it that collectively, all five of us, how do we tell our story? Where are there areas for overlap, collaboration, or opportunities that we previously connected with? And we want to collaborate. The campus, by nature, we just tend to be collaborative in general, but even more so now. We can leverage the fact that we all have the same supervisor, the same area. We all have a similar basic mission now around this notion of student life in moving forward. Now, Student Success is a part of Student Life. It all, again, overlaps in a lot of ways. But having a singular supervisor, in my estimation, helps us to move that more successfully and hopefully make bigger strides in progressing and moving our individual agendas or our approaches more effectively and efficiently. Ford: Mm-hmm. Okay. So, what are some of the wrinkles that needed to be ironed out during the opening of the Center? Lai: I think same as anyone else, how people could fit. Who’s going to fit? [chuckles] When we could have food, do we have enough food for everyone? How much is that going to cost? Are people going to come? Are they not going to come? How do we ensure success? What is success defined as? I think those are all part of the wrinkles. We all have a blueprint for what we hope will happen, but the wrinkles are really the details in trying to figure out what needs to happen, how to ensure that those things are happening. Those are some of the early ones, I think, more than anything. Just like any new Center or space, you’ve got to publicize. And it’s funny. You could be screaming from the top. You could have a million signs— [laughs] Ford: Mm-hmm. [nods] Lai: —on the door that tell you exactly what’s going on and you still will have people go “Oh, what’s this?” Right? Because people are just not in that frame of mind. And in the same vein, you could be screaming from the rooftops, “We have a Black Student Center!” and you’ll inevitably have a student that goes “Oh. I didn’t know that we had it.” [laughs] Getting yourself visible, letting folks know about it, helping them understand what the initial purpose is, who is it for? I heard stories, and these were probably from Black students, they’d be sitting there, and people would be walking and tiptoeing by the door. They’d look inside and they would keep walking, right? Like “Is this where I’m supposed to— Can I come in?” And these were also Black students, maybe even too, to some degree, right? So, just those experiences and hesitancies, I think, are all part of the wrinkles that were a part of that sort of opening to some degree. Our program as well, in the first year, we were trying to establish what is the . . . What are the needs of the students? How do I meet those needs and ensure that this is a place that they would want to come back to? Those are all wrinkles, I think, that I think early on needed to be worked . . . And why—all the more reason that any inaugural director has a huge burden to try and lift, right, when you’re the first of any [technical difficulties] because it’s freeing as there’s no precedent. It doesn’t feel like you have to step up to anything. But at the same time there’s no real benchmark either for what that’s like [technical difficulties] And so, those are all the wrinkles and things that people sorted through in the early days of the Black Student Center. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 15 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Ford: Mm-hmm. So, what do you feel like the main purpose of the creation of the Center was? I knew you went into a little bit of detail on that before, but in your opinion. Lai: Yeah. I think that there is an acknowledgment and a desire that spaces like these can be helpful in supporting students in their efforts [technical difficulties] I feel like [technical difficulties] just as they need to be able to move forward. There are ways in which that can be manifest. There are different models. I came from a—I told you about the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine where I did my undergrad and then eventually worked for a couple of years. They were established in the early ‘70s, but then higher education has gone through budget cuts and then sometimes it does well. So, there’s a lot of these cycles. And there was a moment in time where “We don’t have money. So, we’re going to consolidate everything. And then, we’ll have specialists,” right? And then, there’s other times where it’s like they see it’s a dedicated space, right? And so, I think we go through cycles like that. And so, I think regardless of the efforts that I may have tried to do or contribute, either in supporting the student organization, I wasn’t Black, you know. And that’s not a dig and saying that you have to be in order to. I just didn’t really have that perspective or experience. And so, I think there was a need to have a Center or a space dedicated, especially in light of Black Lives Matter and a lot of these things that are issues that are more complex and complicated that I think require those people to be able to—And even then [next few words unintelligible due to reception] that’s of value for any particular challenge. So, I think there’s that. There was the fact that students wanted it, right? And there was a desire for that. And so, we want to support students in those efforts. But we also want to make sure that students are doing it thoughtfully and not, as I said, just because they want a space. They need to be able to justify why. And I think they were able to articulate that there was a need. So, to me, that’s the reason why I think a Black Student Center needed to exist. There was not enough programming or attention being paid to the issues that the Black community needed to address at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the Black Student Center helped to fill that void to some degree [technical difficulties] individuals who focused their specifically on the needs of the Black community and how to move those efforts forward. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, do you think that purpose has been accomplished? Lai: I think it’s in process. I think that we’re moving in the right direction. I believe so. I think all those things I mentioned about our students coming, how do we generate those. Because students come every year, right, and cycle through every four years, in a lot of ways because people that are coming in don’t always have the context or the history. And so, I think it can feel repetitive but for the student who has never been there, it’s the first time they’re hearing this information and what the purpose of the Black Student Center might be. And so, to your question, yes, they are accomplishing it. I feel like they’re moving in that direction. I think that they’re building community. I feel like we’re there tackling and connecting with spaces like mine across [technical difficulties] the Cross-Cultural Center [technical difficulties] to really [technical difficulties] because there are so many [technical difficulties] you know, or if you are Black from Africa versus Black in the United States. All of those things I think are part of that direction and effort of what the Black Student Center is trying to accomplish. And so, I believe, yes, they are moving in the right direction, and there’s always going to be opportunities to do better. But I feel confident that they’re making strides. The fact that we get a chance to talk about the oral history and talking about the history of the Center is a positive step in the right direction, to Transcribed by Melissa Martin 16 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 acknowledge its origins and also perspective on what its impact has been on Cal State San Marcos. And, for me, that means that if you have the ability to go back and reflect, that means you kind of have a good . . . because early on, it’s hard to know where you want to go when you don’t know where you’ve been, is something I learned from a mentor. And so, history, context has been such a part of my own professional development. And so, I was excited and why I was “Oh, yeah. I want to sign up. I want to be a part of this project,” because these pieces are helpful for future generations to understand what it was, why it was created, why it should be continued or why I think they should continue to fight for its existence in the future, regardless of whatever may happen in the future. Ford: So, how did the Black Student Center opening impact you personally? Lai: I was excited for it. I think I could see individuals, as I mentioned, who maybe hung out in our spaces prior really excited and really happy that they had a space that they felt like they could call their own, right? Again, not to say they couldn’t come downstairs and hang out in the Cross-Cultural Center, but a space that they feel like they had a connection to. Very much like when I shared with you my own personal experience with [technical difficulties] race formational center because I was going through this sort of with my own identity development. I saw very much in them what I saw in myself many, many years ago at UC Irvine, that they felt like they had a place that they felt a direct connection to. It wasn’t necessarily transactional. It wasn’t like “I’m just here to use the computer.” It was a space where they could go and they could find community, where they could be themselves. And I didn’t say this but where you could go and be yourself without having to explain yourself to anyone else, if that makes sense, right? [technical difficulties] a lot of places where there’s a lot of diverse people and then people ask you questions and you’re like “Okay. I’ve got to talk about that again,” versus you go to spaces like a Black Student Center if you’re Black in particular, and people just get you, right? There’s not a what? Why? What? You know, it’s just they get you. So, I think I saw that energy being—and I still see it now, right, with the students that decide or choose to be a part of those spaces. And so, that’s kind of [technical difficulties], that I’ve observed and seen. Anytime there’s a new space that is focused on the wellbeing and success of student populations, particularly those that are marginalized, I think I’ve come to appreciate and be optimistic that those spaces can serve a greater purpose, right, and how they can help students in their own personal development much like the Cross-Cultural Center did for me when I was at UC Irvine. Ford: So, with how everything is, what would you expect next to see from the Black Student Center? Lai: That’s a great question. That’s a John [Rawlins III], the director, question. I guess what I would hope to see is opportunities to engage in broader conversations, right, of what Blackness looks like in the many other spaces or other communities. I would love to see a large number of students get [technical difficulties] and come into Cal State San Marcos as their first choice, not necessarily just because there’s a Black Student Center, but because there’s a sense that the Cal State San Marcos campus is dedicated to Black excellence, is dedicated to the success of students, and it’s demonstrated because the students have this. It’s one of multiple pieces, right? But it can play an integral piece in the cocurricular experience that students have. I’m in Student Affairs and what that means is that I look at the co-curriculum, what happens outside of the Transcribed by Melissa Martin 17 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 classroom. There’s a lot that happens inside the classroom, but I often believe that if they have a great experience outside of the classroom, those narratives, those anecdotes, those stories supplement what they learn in the classroom, right? There’s this theory. How does this thing—? You’re like, “Well, I have experienced that. Can I translate that into better experiences?” So, it’s the cycle and there is some reciprocity. What happens inside the classroom, what happens outside the classroom, there’s a symbiotic relationship. And so, I look forward to a time when the Black Student Center can continue to play a critical role in those efforts for our Black students at Cal State San Marcos. I guess long term, and optimistically, I hope that like “Oh my gosh. They got an amazing Black Student Center at Cal State San Marcos.” And so, that definitely is going to be the reason why I want to be able to go there, right? They’ve got some amazing programs or initiatives that are unique or novel. They look at it a little bit differently. They’re very creative, right? That you wouldn’t necessarily [technical difficulties] I think those are things that I look forward to, right? I’m also aware of the fact that our current structure— John is the only director [chuckles]; there’s a lot of us who help—that it's not his burden to bear alone, if that makes sense, right? Just like when we talk about issues of diversity or issues of inclusive excellence, it’s not just a diversity people. It’s not the people of color’s responsibility alone. Everyone has to play a role. And so, in that same vein, the Black Student Center’s success will also hinge on my ability to provide and support them and help them to be successful in my own contributions, whether it’s being a part of this, finding ways to assist them and help them in their efforts, defending them when necessary, when people go “Why do we need a Black Student Center?” and helping to foster and build a stronger community together. Ford: So, are there any other questions that I haven’t asked that I could or which you want to add or anything else? Lai: No. It was pretty thorough. I was curious because as I was hearing about the oral history project, I know we talked about it. I said, “Okay, you want to send me the questions?” And you’re like “Oh, no. It’s just going to be a conversation.” So, I had no idea what the questions are going to be. And so, I was like “Why do they care what my childhood was like?” [both laugh] Because this is for the Black Student Center Oral History Project. But I appreciate those questions, and . . . and motivations, right, for my connection to the Black Student Center. In my self defense, I am someone or co-conspirator to some degree, someone who wants to create positive change in the community. I’m still doing the work every day and trying to figure out what I could do better each time, what to do differently, right, in a way that hopefully is helpful. I still learn from John, the director, and help support him. So, yeah. So, thank you so much— Ford: Thank you so much for letting me interview you. That was a wonderful— Lai: —for the opportunity. [I don’t have] anything else to add other than yeah, for the opportunity to share with you and to get to know you better, or at least partially, right? [both laugh] Ford: Thank you so much. Lai: Of course, Ayana. I think that’s it for me, right? Is there any other questions or no? Ford: No. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 18 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Lai: We’re good? Ford: Yeah. Lai: Okay. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 19 2024-02 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lai, Floyd. Interview transcript, April 19, 2021. Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai was the director CSUSM's Cross-Cultural Center from 2011 - 2023, where he engaged with students and their social justice and activism. Lai attended the University of California Irvine before coming to Cal State San Marcos. Lai saw the growth of the Black Student Center, and helped it grow by supporting and aiding students. In this interview, Lai also discusses his life and childhood. This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-19 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Racism -- California -- Irvine Student success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Irvine (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LaiFloyd_FordAyana_2021-04-19_transcript Activists and activism Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ayana Ford Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Floyd Lai OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaiFloyd_FordAyana_04-19-21_Access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Lai, Floyd. Interview, April 19, 2021 SC027-03 1:16:56 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Racism -- California -- Irvine Student success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center San Marcos (Calif.) Irvine (Calif.) Floyd Lai Ayana Ford mp4 LaiFloyd_FordAyana_04-19-21_Access.mp4 1.0:|16(14)|26(9)|40(9)|51(8)|64(5)|76(9)|89(3)|101(10)|112(18)|125(4)|136(11)|153(5)|166(17)|177(4)|191(16)|202(15)|213(12)|224(14)|238(5)|257(3)|267(9)|278(14)|289(13)|301(6)|313(14)|324(17)|341(11)|355(13)|366(4)|380(7)|394(12)|407(4)|419(7)|431(8)|443(11)|456(15)|468(15)|480(4)|502(4)|517(13)|529(8)|543(4)|555(12)|568(7)|582(11)|592(5)|604(3)|616(10)|630(4)|644(15)|657(9)|668(10)|681(13)|695(8)|709(9)|722(14)|735(7)|748(12)|766(4)|784(5)|796(13)|808(12)|823(5)|836(7)|850(12)|863(17)|875(6)|889(8)|900(11)|914(7)|927(6)|940(13)|953(9)|966(7)|978(15)|994(3)|1019(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4ef778dfa6ec0355e8c50df20e5a2bc3.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction Interview of Floyd Lai by Ayana Ford, April 19, 2021. Interview was conducted over Zoom and has a few moments towards the end with technical issues. 0 35 Childhood Lai recounts his childhood as a Chinese American son of immigrants in Hawaii, Idaho, and California, and his introduction to concepts of race and ethnicity. 0 306 Learning about the Black community 0 423 Lai's college and professional experience with issues of race/ethnicity 0 775 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements 0 1188 History of Cross Cultural Center and early campus spaces 0 1440 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation 0 1782 University Administration's vision for the Black Student Center 0 2105 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center 0 2395 Opening of the Black Student Center 0 2690 Early focus of the Black Student Center 0 2969 Collaborations between Black Student Center and Cross Cultural Center 0 3522 Reorganization: Black Student Center move from Student Success to Student Life 0 3704 Issues in the early days of the Black Student Center 0 3876 Purpose of the Black Student Center 0 4196 Impact of Black Student Center on Lai 0 4331 Future expectations of the Black Student Center 0 4534 Lai's thoughts on the Black Student Center Oral History Project 0 oral history Floyd Lai was the director CSUSM's Cross-Cultural Center 2011 - 2023, where he engaged with students and their social justice and activism. Lai attended the University of California Irvine before coming to Cal State San Marcos. Lai saw the growth of the Black Student Center, and helped it grow by supporting and aiding students. Lai also discusses his life and childhood. Ayana Ford: So, today is Monday, April 19th, 2021, at one-oh-two p.m. I am Ayana Ford, a student at San Marcos and today I’m interviewing Floyd Lai for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between CSUSM Black Student Center and the CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Mr. Lai, thank you for being here with me today. Floyd Lai: Pleasure. Thank you, Ayana. Ford: I’d like to start by talking about your childhood a little bit. When and where were you born? Lai: I was born on the island of Oahu in Kahuku in Hawaii, and that was in 1974. Ford: Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Lai: Sure. My parents are immigrants, originally from Taiwan. I am the oldest of three sons, three boys. We moved around. My parents initially settled in Hawaii, and then we moved to Idaho, and then eventually to southern California by the time I was six. I have lived in California since about 1980, so pretty much consider myself a native in the sense of being in southern California for the majority of my lifetime. And I would say it was a pretty ordinary, I guess, childhood in the sense that, again, being the oldest of three boys, there were obviously some cultural components in the roles and responsibilities of what that entailed, being the eldest. I also had responsibility over my two younger brothers as well, just with regard to how we were growing up, and it was pretty common as far as an immigrant experience, keeping in mind both of my parents worked. And I think, at an early age, I—there’s a term that was called, not necessarily pejorative but it was a latch key kid. So, I had a key around my neck so that when I would walk home from school, I’d be able to get inside the house, and pretty much had responsibility for my brothers from an early age as well. Ford: I know that. I’m the youngest, so— (both laugh) So, how did that help you come to an understanding of your culture at all? How did your childhood help you come to understand your culture? Lai: Yeah. You know, I would say it was a part of my upbringing in the sense that it guided and dictated—and it was just par for the course, meaning that outside of any influence or education about some of the histories that we learn about at school, it was just part of my upbringing, right? So, being from a Chinese immigrant family, eating Chinese food, right? (chuckles) Everything was just taken as something that was innate and part of the way in which I was raised. I would say that the first instance that I recognized or noticed that perhaps I was different from others was probably not until my middle school years, in the sense that I think first through sixth in elementary school, the community in which I grew up—I grew up in Rowland Heights, California, which is in Los Angeles County. At the time, it was relatively pretty diverse, but I think the friends that I had were of different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different races. And as time progressed and if you were to go back to that community now, there has been a huge influx of immigration, particularly from China and Taiwan because of institutions, like there’s a large Buddhist temple in the adjoining city in Hacienda Heights, and we’ve seen some of the demographic shifts and changes. So, growing up in middle school was probably where I started noticing and gravitating towards individuals who were much like myself, who were also of Asian background or identity or descent. I was on the seventh grade, eighth grade basketball team. And so, I would say that probably was my first introduction to other races, like Black individuals or Mexicans or Latinos at the time. But I didn’t necessarily have a good understanding of the differences when it came to race and ethnicity until very much later, probably not until I graduated from high school and got into college and started taking classes and/or having discussions about that. Ford: So, to follow up on that, during your childhood and adolescence, were you taught about Black history and the Black community? Lai: You know, the extent of that probably was Martin Luther King, Jr., right? ; Black History month, limited to just the month of February. My earliest recollection—I think I may have done research on George Washington Carver, right? Learning about, I think it was peanut butter or a lot of, I think, the stories and notions of Black history that was primarily in our history books, right? And it was all the positive portrayals, right, or images of things and people, right? Obviously, since then and more recently with different projects like, I’m blanking. Is it the 1692 Project or things that are in the media now that talk about slavery and other things, right? My recollection of that when I was in elementary, middle, or even high school was maybe a short chapter, if that, on slavery and the Civil War, but never necessarily through a Black lens or a portrayal beyond just the significant notables like Martin Luther King, Jr., maybe some musicians, Louis Armstrong, things that we would hear about or note, but there was never an extended conversation about that. I played basketball, as I mentioned, in seventh and eighth grades. So, I knew Black students or teammates of mine. We didn’t necessarily hang out. We just played our basketball games and whatnot. But that was really the extent of it. So, we played basketball on the same team, but then beyond that, our circles didn’t necessarily overlap, one with another. Ford: So, after you came to San Marcos, how did that change? Prior to your coming here to San Marcos. Lai: Yeah. Coming to San Marcos as a staff member, I’ve had more—I’ve been out here at Cal State San Marcos for the last ten years. Prior to that, I worked at UC Irvine for about six years. And then, even before that, I graduated in 2000 from undergraduate, UC Irvine as well. That’s where I did my undergraduate program in environmental engineering. So, I was on a track or trajectory to go into engineering, in the engineering field. My first notion, I think in a broader sense, was in my undergraduate experience at UC Irvine. Well, so from a personal experience as an Asian American, Chinese American man, I have shared this story with others when I do workshops and presentations. But my first introduction to a personal impact was—I forget the year. I want to say 1995 or ‘96, per se. I was the recipient, on the receiving end at the time, of a hate incident through email. So, myself and others, back in the day—this is when the internet was still (laughs) kind of coming out—you had to go to a lab to jump on and connect. And there were localized areas and whatnot. But I received an email essentially saying, “I’m going to kill all you eff’in Asians. You ruin the curve,” things like that, that really started me on a trajectory and path to really be more reflective about my own personal identity as a Chinese, Asian American man. You know, “I just got this. What is this? Not sure,” you know. Come to find out later on, it was a student who obviously felt the need or desire to broadcast this message, this hateful message, to whomever was in the lab at the time. And the way he identified folks was if they had an Asian sort of sounding last name. And those that were there, myself included, were the lucky recipients of that. So, that started me on a trajectory, just kind of where I am today. I mean I think that would be a critical, pivotal point in the work that I do within multicultural affairs, and doing the work that I do in the Cross-Cultural Center. It was a personal moment where I started thinking why was I the recipient? What caused this, right? To think about issues in terms of race. And it’s through that soul searching and connections to the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine that I got involved. Then I said I wanted to explore that a little bit more. I was involved in various clubs. I was part of the Hawaii club. I’m not myself native Hawaiian, but it was something. I was born there, and it was something that I gravitated towards. And it was through those interactions that I started getting involved and going to programming with the Cross-Cultural Center at that space and Center, which I eventually got to work at prior to coming here to Cal State San Marcos, when I worked there for about six years. I got introduced to the Black Student Union, right? MEChA which is a student organization that often helps to—We call them umbrella organizations. They are the political, social wing of the experiences at UC Irvine at the time: Asian Pacific Student Association ; again, these larger groupings. And so, I worked at the Center as a volunteer initially, then as an intern, and then I was involved in a program called REACH. They’ve changed their name since, but it was called Reaffirming Ethnic Awareness, Community, Harmony. So, I learned about workshops. I got really deeply involved in understanding, for example, the different experiences within the various communities, whether it was the Asian community, the Black community, the LatinX community—LatinX wasn’t a term at the time, right—so, the Latino community, and the different sort of experiences. I would say also during that time at UC Irvine was the first time I took an Asian—So, I was an engineer. So, that was my trajectory and pathway. It’s very fixed. You can’t deviate too much, right? Ford: Yeah. Lai: You know, you’ve got your sciences classes. You’ve got your engineering classes. But, on occasion, I had the ability to take some of electives. And so, one of the electives I chose was an Asian American Studies class which was helpful for me, as well, as I was just trying to get into and understanding of some of those issues and areas. So, between my experience at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine, some of the classes I was able to take, the interactions that I had, obviously hanging out at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine, I got to meet the leaders of the Black Student Union from the American Indian Student Association. These were folks that I was able to run in circles or I would see on a regular basis. They had retreats and other opportunities for student leadership exposure. And so, that’s where I was able to expand and grow my experience. And at the time I wasn’t sure if I was going into the field of higher education that I am in now. It was just something that was supplementary to understanding some of those things at that time in my own personal development, of my own identity, and in relation to other people. Ford: So, as you mentioned before, you had talked a little bit about how the different movements were. How has Black social justice and activism such as Civil Rights Movement, Feminism, and Black Lives Matter Movement affected you? Lai: Yeah. I would say that’s a more recent, and I would say it’s an ongoing, evolutionary progression for me, right? Let me start more recently and maybe work backward. I would say this past summer, last summer, with George Floyd—And, again, he was not the first and nor was he the last, as we’ve seen more recently with the continued impacts of anti-Black racism occurring. I would say, however though, that that coupled with the pandemic and other things, right, I think galvanized. And we saw our country and nation as a whole get to a turning point, right? And so, that’s something that I would say is the strong notion of anti-racism, of anti-Black racism particularly, and how it’s situated within the context of my understanding of racism and discrimination broadly, was really galvanized there. The Black Lives Matter Movement I know occurred a couple of years earlier, right, with Ferguson and some of those things. So, there has been a steady, I think, beat in my own personal understanding in history of the Black experience and where I fit and situate, right? I often felt as if I was a bystander to some degree, someone who’s looking outside looking in and trying to understand but, obviously, not recognizing those experiences personally. And there’s a certain level of privilege in that too, right? So, because I’m not Black and I don’t have to go through some of those things, I have the luxury of not having to worry about those things, right? So, yes, it’s horrible. Yes, it’s awful. And I felt a lot of empathy for situations and crises like this. And why does this continue to occur? But I would say that, going back to George Floyd, that was a pivotal point in my own personal experience in recognizing—one, because I mean my first name is Floyd, so it was weird hearing so-and-so was on the neck of Floyd. And so, there was this kind of weird connection as well, because his last name just happens to be my first name. And so, there was almost this personal connection now because I would see Floyd in narratives and things like that about the experiences with police. And so, it was very personalizing in that way. So, I think that, and then going back to Black Lives Matter, I would say my background and trajectory and pathway, especially in this field of social justice work, I was never—compared to probably some of my colleagues—I was never a super activist, right? I wasn’t out there chanting or demonstrating. There were a few times I was part of marches or walks, but nothing that felt very heavily involved. Part of the reason why is because I think, also personally, my purpose was I’m going to get an engineering degree. This is all nice but that’s not my focus. And then, as I came to my own sort of personal consciousness and awakening myself, I started to see how education could be an opportunity to better understand. And I felt like I could have an impact on things as well, right? Personally, and professionally, in a lot of ways. So, going back to your initial question, I think those experiences have continued to evolve for me. I think there are better nuances in the sense—or better is not the right word. I have more nuance in understanding that experience and how I fit into that, right? This last summer, there is more of a commitment. Now, anytime we make a commitment or a desire to change, we always have to check ourselves to see if we’re still in that same frame of mind. But I have a stronger commitment to trying to dismantle anti-Blackness and try to dismantle racist notions. And even more so now, going back to my identity as an Asian American, in what ways does my own culture and my own upbringing, does my own lens, as an Asian American, help to contribute to some of that, right? I was having a conversation with some colleagues of mine and thinking back, when I was younger, going back to that kind of thing, there was this rule about who I was able to date. Right? Who would be acceptable to date? So, obviously, my parents are Chinese. So, if you can find someone, and I identify as heterosexual, so if you find a nice Chinese girl, right, that’s at the top of the list, if you can find someone that you want to date. And at the bottom of the list, right, was someone who was more dark-complected or Black, right? That was not in my wheelhouse or realm. And so, a lot of that sentiment that seemingly is innocuous—I mean, my parents are immigrants and so this notion, right, coming from Taiwan where there’s not a lot of people of color, right? They’re mostly Chinese or indigenous individuals but there were still notions of colorism, right? The darker the skin, don’t be out in the sun too much because not only is it bad for you but also you don’t want to be too dark-complected. So, a lot of those things that I took, I viewed different then, I look at now in the lens of how that can contribute to notions of anti-Blackness, right, and what that role looks like. And then, I’m a father of two young girls. And so, what is now my role as someone who can influence, particularly those in my own family, what those thoughts and ideas look like? How do I have and hold conversations with my children and social media, everything. Compared to when I was younger, you had to read the newspaper, watch television. There were only three news channels, right? Cable was satellite media, as I was getting a little bit older. So, there were only so many sources of news. Now, there are so many places where you can get information. And so, how do I structure those conversations or perhaps take opportunities to have conversations with them about these diverse issues, racially, or around sexual orientation, around gender, right? And I’ve been surprised. I mean, a lot of them have been reading books that have exposed them to a lot of concepts that I probably wouldn’t have been reading prior, because the authors weren’t writing about those topics, right, about gender fluidity or any of those things. They’re much more comfortable in using that language than I was at their age, at that time. I don’t know if I answered your question? It’s kind of long-winded. But those are just, I mean, just some initial thoughts about some of those movements and around social justice in general. Ford: Mm-hmm. You answered the question perfectly. Thank you. (chuckles) Lai: Okay. Ford: So, what role did you play in the creation of the Black Student Center? Lai: Yeah. Other than perhaps a cheerleading role on the sidelines—So, I’ll give you a little bit of history, just also for the purposes of this recording. You know, the Cross-Cultural Center is—not was, but is the first established now what’s called the Student Life Center. So, we were established in 2003. So, at the time, with no other Centers or spaces, we kind of had to do everything. And again, this wasn’t me. It was my predecessors, right? And so, once the Cross-Cultural Center—I think soon thereafter it was the Women’s Center, now currently called the Gender Equity Center, Pride Center. And then there was a huge gap, and probably within the last 5-7 years, the LatinX Center, and then most recently, the Black Student Center. So, my role has been as sort of a cheerleader of it. We had a student who worked as student staff. Her name is Chanel Bradley. She’s an alum of Cal State San Marcos. She revived the Black Student Union, BSU, during her time here. And she worked with Robert Aiello-Hauser who is the director of the LGBTQA Pride Center in a lot of those things. At the time, there were just the three: the Women’s Center, the Cross-Cultural Center, and the LGBTQA Pride Center. So, when I came in 2011, we overlapped. Chanel was I think in her second to last or last year, right? So, she was involved in developing. And since there wasn’t a Black Student Center at the time, I was sort of the support mechanism, right, along with some of the other Centers in providing support for the Black students. So, we played roles in supporting them programmatically, trying to work with them. If you were to come in person to the Cross-Cultural Center, I helped to develop things like, at the time when it was called Black History month, now it’s called Black Excellence month, but Black History month. And in my early couple of years being on campus, I was focused on how do we create space to celebrate or to discuss and talk about these issues. (starts to adjust his chair. Both laugh.) I’m sorry. My chair keeps sinking and I’m not doing anything, and so I keep having to adjust. So, my role was really more advisory, if that. Trying to play a support role. Trying to support our students. This is even before the establishment or the creation of a Black Student Center. I would say, then, after that, I still continued to have relationships supporting the Black Student Union. At the time, the Cross-Cultural Center was a subset of what was known then as the Student Life and Leadership or SLL. And SLL, now called the Student Leadership and Involvement Center or SLIC, was in charge of student organizations. So, I as the Cross-Cultural Center, had responsibility over some of the student cultural organizations, of which BSU was one. And so, that was where my relationship continued to build with them, trying to support them, do leadership, trying to support the students who were a part of that. Around that time, as the LatinX Center got some momentum and eventually was established, right, there were students in the Black Student Union who said, “Hey.” The argument one could say is, for the LatinX Center, the population at campus was almost 50%—it was pretty high—that identified as Hispanic or LatinX or Latino. And so, there was a need for resources and support. On the other side of the spectrum, and this is not to take away from Native American or American Indian students, Indigenous students, the second lowest were Black students, I think hovering around 2-3%. And so, students at the time had expressed an interest and desire to say, “We need a space too because there’s not enough of us.” It was not so much because there’s so many, but it was a lack of visibility and a lack of resources to recruit. And I came to learn later on, it was an issue with some of the reputation of the area, right, whether or not it’s a welcoming and inviting space, whether or not there was a critical mass of faculty or staff so students would feel like, yes, I want to come to Cal State San Marcos. So, my role was very much tangential, was very much on the outsides trying to support it, recognizing that students needed additional resources and support in order to be able to provide them a space to congregate, a space to be able to discuss about issues that are specific to the Black community. BSU did that, right, to some degree. It just wasn’t necessarily as organized or had the resources and the staffing and the dedicated time that I think John, the current director John, is able to put forth in helping to support that community, right? And so, that’s the extent off my experience in relation to the creation and establishment of the Center. It was truly student developed and student driven. They organized and decided that they wanted to create a space. They were going to go and make a demand to the president, President Haynes at the time, and were strategic about when and how to demand or ask, right, (chuckles) strategically about the need for this. And I would say President Haynes, at the time, I think it—I wouldn’t say caught her off guard. I think it was very impactful because now she was on the spot and she could also challenge them and say, “Okay. What are the needs? Tell me what you need. Draft a proposal.” So, she put it right back to the students. And so, the students then went to work and they said, “Okay. This is what needs to happen.” And then, with support from faculty and staff, the Black Student Center was eventually established here at Cal State San Marcos. Ford: So, you helped support everyone. (chuckles) Lai: Yeah. Yeah. Ford: So, what did the student staff involved in the creation of the Black Student Center feel like they needed directly? I know you went into a little detail about it, but is there anything? Lai: Yeah. I’m very aware and I’ve actually shared with student activists, I say I’m here to support but I’m also part of the institution. (laughs) So, I think they were savvy enough to know like okay, I can only share this much with Floyd. So, I don’t know all the details of the thing. What I recall though was some of the things that I shared with you, that there was a lack of visibility for Black students and therefore there was a sort of spiral effect because at least the argument at the time was if I don’t see people like myself or other Black students, why do I want to come here to Cal State San Marcos? There’s no place for me to feel like I belong. So, a sense of belonging was one. A sense of programming that was dedicated. I shared with you, prior to that, I put together a Black History Month event about being Black in America and we kind of cobbled together some programming that would talk about those issues. But I wasn’t Black, right? So, I relied heavily on Black faculty or staff or even the students, to come up with ideas and concepts that could speak to that experience. But again, I was from an outsider view. I’m not Black and I don’t have that experience so I can’t speak to it. And, probably, this is just my take on it, there’s not a sense of authenticity or even—credibility is not the right word, but just authority as a Black individual to say this is what we need. I was kind of like “Hey. How can we help put this together programmatically so that there’s some visibility.” But I wasn’t—again, not being Black myself. So, I think that was another piece, seeing some additional programming that spoke to the community as opposed to from an outsider lens trying to see and fill a void that was there. I think there was also a desire for just a space. I mean, I think that’s where it always stems from. And I’m very cautious too, because I think any time you advocate for a Center or a space, if your only argument is we need a space, okay, well what’s that space supposed to do? Because there is strength, obviously, in numbers. But you could hang out in the dining hall. You can hang out outside and carve out your own space. So, what is the need for a Center? And so, I think they wanted to look at resources, ways in which tied to student success, to graduation rates. So, those are some things that I think eventually made it into the initial proposal and/or if not part of the demands into the proposal. And, you know, I think students had a lot of support from faculty and staff, as far as hearing their concerns and then being able to articulate that in a way to eventually formulate the initial plans for the movement towards an establishment of the Black Student Center on campus. Ford: So, what did you think the university administration communicated was their vision for the Black Student Center? Lai: I think they communicated that there was a desire to have it. I don’t know if they necessarily dictated what it was going to be. In my experience, to some degree, I think that as an administrator you’re looking at every piece, right? Where is it going to be? I mean, just because the president of an institution or a university says “Yes, it’s going to happen” doesn’t mean all the answers are (next few words unintelligible due to poor reception) Yes, it’s going to happen. Now figure out how it’s going to work (unclear) I think there was a commitment or a desire to meet the students, what they’re wanting to have. And I’ll be the first to say I think students have a lot of power, more so than they often think, when it comes to political will and capital because—And not to say that just because you could do it, you should. But because there’s the desire there, they articulated a good reason for why there was a need for a Black Student Center that was compelling enough that I think that the institution said “Okay. We’re going to do that.” Right? And so, the commitment was yes, we’re dedicated to this. It’s one of our values. Now, whether or not and there’s going to be personalities and histories of whether or not you believe what the president is saying or doesn’t say or the rest of the administration, there was definitely a commitment though on the heels of a LatinX Center being established, that there was the need because these two populations, both the Brown and Black populations, had different systemic issues, right? Whether it was retention as I mentioned earlier, or student success when it came to graduation rates, there was a desire. And so, both of these Centers actually stemmed or started from a—and this gets too much into the nitty gritty, but they came up through Student Academic Support Services. And so, their focus was primarily on student success. Whereas for me, in the Cross-Cultural Center, Gender Equity Center, and Pride Center, we all came up through different ways. The Gender Equity and Pride Center or Women’s Center came up through Associated Students. And so, it was very much student driven, student funded, right? That was funding stream. The Cross-Cultural Center was established under Student Life, under this engagement in Student Activities, that kind of thing. And the Black Student Center, LatinX Center, came under Student Academic Support Services. Now, they all overlap in a lot of ways, but it was very targeted, right? When you think of Student Academic Support, you’re thinking testing materials, time management, skills that were necessary for student success. And so, I think those were some elements that there was a dedication to, right, by the institution, by the university. So, we want these spaces to fall under this area because we want to increase the student success of both Black communities as well as Latino communities. So, I think that was what was communicated and conveyed by the institution. The rest of the details were left up to the person in charge at the time, right, to develop and see through what that would look like. Currently—and I would say this is more recently—my current supervisor, the Associate Vice President of Student Life, Dr. Gail Cole-Avant—she came on probably around the same time, no, about a year or two after the Black Student Center. So, prior to that, we all reported to different people. And so, that also meant that there was different focus and different priorities for each of our spaces. And so, this reorganization with the Vice President of Student Affairs, Dr. Checa, to combine and create this new space where all the Centers were consolidated as a result of some external reviews was, I think, in a good way the university saying, “We need to do better. And this is our way to make sure that we are all aligned in moving forward,” because it kind of felt like we were going in three different directions, right, because ASI, Student Government, they have an agenda, a mission, a focus. My area around student leadership and student life is different. And then Black Student Center and the LatinX Center around student success and academics. So, they’re kind of different. They definitely overlap but they’re on different trajectories. By bringing them together, I think the institution is also saying that there’s a commitment to doing better, to moving towards success in aligning the resources, helping. We all support one another. We’re all staffs of one, to a certain degree. We rely heavily on graduate assistants and undergraduate students who work in our spaces. So, us leveraging and supporting one another I think provided a pathway to be able to move forward in a way that perhaps the Black Student Center wasn’t able to do prior. Ford: So, do you know of any pushback, internal or external, against the opening of the Black Student Center? Lai: You know, I think with any creation of new space where resources are being allocated, there are always going to be detractors and individuals who feel like is this the best use of our resources, right? I would say, from my lens where I was situated, there was not necessarily so much pushback per se as much as it was trying to understand what the purposes were, right? We knew we could have a Black Student Center. I was actually—just as far as my connection to the Center and I forgot about this—I was on the committee that selected the first director, right, or was invited to be a part of that. So, we knew at the time that the director was really going to set the stage, especially being the inaugural director for a brand-new space. This individual would have to articulate the vision ; would be able to link and connect with those that were on campus, both those that support it and perhaps even those that didn’t ; and be able to pool those resources together ; more importantly—and I think this was probably the priority—really build a rapport and a relationship with students, right, and student organizations because even if you build it, if they don’t come, then, you know—. So, you really need to help to let students know what is the purpose, why is it here, why it’s important, and to build those relationships. So, I would say that that was where our focus was. Outside of that, I don’t think that I was aware of. I wasn’t involved in any particular pushback. Was there? I’m sure there was, right? Others that may have said, I think—and it’s the same sort of trope—White students, and I use that broadly, right? But where is our White Center, right, because if you’ve got a LatinX Center, you’ve got a Black Student Center, where is the White Center? So, a lot of these things started coming through perhaps, right? Again, those were often funneled through the Office of Inclusive Excellence at the time. And so, I wasn’t necessarily a part of those sort of conversations or comments. But I will say that once a Center is established, then you start to get “Well, what about us? What about our Center? Where’s the Middle Eastern Center? Or where’s the Muslim Center, right, where we can pray? What about the Asian American Center, APIDA Center? What about the Jewish Center for the Jewish students on campus?” And so, I think it’s not so much pushback but it’s more of the “What about us now? What now?” Now that we’ve started this precedent, what does that mean? And so, I think there may have been obviously some conversations and discussions, maybe even some disagreements around that approach as well. But, beyond that, I didn’t necessarily hear any specific pushback to that because I think students had done a good job in I think articulating it. They had worked really closely with faculty. And also, the Black Faculty and Staff Association, they really helped to drive that home. So, I think, collectively, there was a desire to see that this would be successful. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, speaking of the opening, were you able to attend the grand opening? Lai: I try to remember. (laughs) That was a couple of years ago. I think I was in the back. And I don’t remember what year you are in school. Have you been? It’s on the 4th floor— Ford: Yeah, I’ve been. (chuckles) Yeah. Lai: —which is right by the stairwell. There’s not a lot of space and room in general, right? Ford: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lai: So, I think it was up there. They did a ribbon cutting ceremony up there. I recall being kind of in the back (indicates behind him with both arms) because there’s only so much space you can have, right, in front, of where it was. And that’s my recollection because I think there was a photo that I saw on a website way back when, when it was first established, or there may still be one in the archival footage, of the first director and then also with President Haynes doing some ribbon cutting and ceremonial things with the Center. But, after that, the first, his name was Anthony Jett. I, along with some of the other directors for the Centers, we all collaboratively work together. And so, I would have opportunities, right, to connect with the first director in trying to figure out programmatically different ideas, different approaches, and ways to look at the situation and how we can ensure the success of the Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, how did it feel the first time you visited the Center? You have any (last word unintelligible) Lai: Yeah. Well, so I’ve been here long enough that, you know, that space prior—there was some work that had to be done. That used to be the meditation stress-free zone, I guess. It was meant to be a prayer space, initially. So, it has undergone some renovation. But if you ever go up to the bathroom that’s right there as well—because there used to be a display case—and so they had removed it and created space so the folks could actually access it. There’s a gender-neutral bathroom or single stall use bathroom up there. But you’ll notice it’s different from others because there’s actually a—oh, I’m forgetting what the Islamic term is for it—but a wash station. So, you can sit. And so, the intent was that for those, particularly those, of our Muslim faith that we had a dedicated space for spirituality, prayer. Sometimes, it was a nap space, right, but for meditation. So, it was converted from that. And so, it’s right above the Cross-Cultural Center when you look at the specs. They did a really great job with the small amount of space that was there, right? I would say also, too—and being all transparent as well—having a space is important. Where the space is located is also important. So, we ran out of room on the 3rd floor. There was no other way to chop up. The LatinX Center got wedged in between the Cross-Cultural Center and the Gender Equity Center. It used to be called the Social Justice—It was meant to be a training space, and they made (words cut off. Maybe “it into”?) the LatinX Center, right? And in the same vein, we can’t have a Black Student Center halfway across the campus. It has to all be in the same space, but we ran out of room. So, it’s on the 4th floor. And so, the fact that they converted it, I mean it’s a beautiful space. You have nice views. You can see it. It’s a small space, right? It can get crowded real quickly, especially if you get a critical mass, like a lot of our spaces, but just in general. And it’s right up on the top so there’s a lot of visibility as folks are walking past and go through. What I will say, though— and this is something that I think all Centers and spaces struggle with—if you see a community of people in the space, there’s always this question of do I belong here or don’t I, right? And so, I did hear early on, right, some of the challenges were “Oh, I’m not Black. I can’t go in the space. (chuckles) Should I set foot inside?” Even though if you want to learn about—Just because it’s called the Black Student Center, it’s focused on Black issues and other things that affect the Black community, but it’s not limited to individuals who identify as Black. And so, that has always been a tension, right, when it comes to who can come into the space, who’s allowed to step through the doors. Do I feel comfortable? Some of that we, as directors of our spaces, we try to make it as inviting as much as we can. But, ultimately, it’s up to that student to step through that door (chuckles) and take that step to go inside that space. So, you know, it was a beautiful space. They had a great computer lab, self-publish stations. It was very tiny so there was one office and one desk. There was a small kitchenette and other things that you would normally want to see in a student-centered space for individuals. So, yeah, it was an exciting time. I would say, like any new spaces on campus, we want to make sure that they’re successful. And people hung out there. I will say, right, so just being in the Cross-Cultural Center and as these spaces have evolved and developed, people that we normally would have seen previously in some of our spaces then started to go and gravitate, right? So, if there were Black individuals who at one point prior hung out in the Cross-Cultural Center, they now felt like—well, I don’t know if they felt like, but I would maybe see them upstairs now, right? I would have to go upstairs to connect with them versus before they would be just be right behind me, whether on couches or something like that. I could just say, “Hey, how’s it going?” and connect with them. So, that’s all part of the shift that I think that happened with student spaces, and where you feel comfortable, where you feel like you belong. And those are always dynamic, and they change, depending on the students when they come in and how they pass on orally (next few words are cut off) . . . students hang out. And then, all of a sudden you start to get some of these myths about where people should or shouldn’t be with regard to that. Ford: So, can you tell me a little bit about the early focus of the Black Student Center’s programs, and different initiatives that they did during the day? Lai: Yeah. What I recall—and, again, I wasn’t integral in the design, because Anthony Jett, the first director, really dictated a lot of that, but in my conversations with him there were a few themes that I recognized, right? One, I think, was leveraging the experience of the community in North County, which—I don’t think North County—Not to say that there aren’t Black communities, but it’s not predominantly an area regionally known for that. And so, part of it was establishing relationships. So, I want to say the NAACP has a chapter, I think, in North County or maybe in Vista or nearby. Mira Costa has centers or spaces. And so, Mira Costa does a Martin Luther King, Jr. Day of Service, right, for example, which at our campus we don’t do. We have Cesar Chavez, at the time. We do now. And so, there were—I think, Anthony, some of his first parts were really establishing those relationships because, again, there had not been a Black Student Center prior. And so, those relationships weren’t necessarily there, or the focus and taking the time to focus on those relationships weren’t necessarily there. I also think that, wherever possible, the director would try to help with recruitment. So, when we think about outreach on our campus, oftentimes these occur seventh, eighth grade, maybe high school. And so, he would spend a lot of his time either going to high school or conferences or fairs to try and let them know about the fact that there was a Black Student Center and that, yes, there are Black students and a Black community, even though it’s small, at Cal State San Marcos. It was establishing relationships with organizations like the NAACP or other institutions. It was really getting involved in the community. And that’s something, I think from what I observed, was something he spent a lot of his time doing, right? Secondary to that, and that’s where we often connected, was the programmatic nature of what was the focus and what was it going to look like. And he—and I’m forgetting what his affiliation is—but he was part of one of the Divine Nine. It may have been Omega Psi, Omega Phi? I haven’t been on campus, so my Greek is—Omega Psi Phi, I think it is, one of the Black fraternities. He himself was a member, so he built relationships, right, and brought on the fraternity and helped in those efforts, strengthened those pieces with regard to community, tried to have programming with students and work collaboratively with the Black Student Union. Student organizations, they ebb and flow (laugh) depending on who the leadership is. Sometimes, they’re really strong and sometimes people are busy and so there’s not a lot of traction. So, whatever the leadership was at the time, I think he tried to forge relationships with them as well. So yeah, I think those were the efforts. I think also knowing, and I shared with you early on, when I came on and there was no other Center and space, I primarily drove a lot of the History Months or the Heritage Months. And so, with the establishment of the Black Student Center now, there could be a focus. And that became their responsibility or purview to some degree, if they wanted to do programming or things like that and how they might be able to support community, create community, create opportunities for folks to gather. Those were all efforts that I think Black History Month, Black Excellence Month now, those are some of the programming efforts and focus that he was in charge of. I want to say he started in August, in the summer, so he had a really quick pivot time to try and get going because usually with planning like this, for any programming, a couple months in advance you want to be there. So, he was scrambling, not only trying to build those relationships, but also create some sort of programming that would work. So, we often would leverage and say, “Oh yeah. We’ve got this program. Let’s support one another,” or things like that, in helping to move that work forward and increasing the visibility of the Center and space. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, current, and previously, have there been any collaborative efforts between the Cross-Cultural Center and the Black Student Center? Lai: There have. I mentioned earlier, more recently, I would say we have looked at different ways to view those collaborations. So, first and foremost, the Cross-Cultural Center does a program called the Social Justice Summit which is a weekend retreat to talk about issues of social justice, to explore identity. How does that connect with the choices and decisions we make to look at power and privilege? And then, it’s a three-day conference, so by the last day of the summit/retreat, we are looking at what does that mean? How do we become an ally? So, all the Centers, including the Black Student Center once they came online, were all invited collaborators with that sort of social justice programming. It’s not only signature programs but it’s also a way that all of us intersect across our different programming areas. So, that’s definitely one area that I would say he was invited to. But again, he had so much on his plate, I don’t know if we were necessarily able to leverage that at the time when he first came onboard with the Black Student Center. Since then—and I’ll speak probably more recently and actually this is going to be tomorrow—we are doing a program tomorrow called Beyond Just Us: Empathy and Justice Across Communities, and that’s a collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and the Black Student Center. Now, that has also been a shift in our space. And I know we’re not talking about the Cross-Cultural Center, but we started to do more programming in the absence of an Asian Pacific Islander Desi American-dedicated space. And that’s not us. We have a lot of students who identify, that hang out in our space: Filipino, Chinese, otherwise. But, in the absence of an actual space, we’re doing programming because there’s still going to be a need for that. So, that’s a program defining diaspora, APIDA identities. That’s a program series we do within our space. And in light of the recent assaults and attacks on Asian American communities, and sometimes by perpetrators who were perceived as Black, we’ve seen an increase in the solidarity marches and/or the ways in which both of these communities have come together, right? And so, Chamorro (Cultural Festival) is an example of where we’re looking at what does that intersectionality look like between Asian and Black communities? What has that history been, right? In the description, we talk about this trope. I don’t know when you were born, Ayana, but I was in high school during the 1992 riots, Rodney King, when the policemen were acquitted and the aftermath of all that, or actually leading up to all that, right, what happened as a result of his beating. And at the time—again, so this goes back to your very first question about my lens and stuff in high school—that was probably another point, just looking at those relationships because I remember having arguments with my Korean friends like “Why are you going to L.A.?” I’m not anti-gun. I’m not a fan of having any firearms in general, right? That’s not for me to deal with. And I remember having heated conversations with them about why are you going to Korea Town. Just stay safe! And they’re like “No. This is our livelihood, so we need to protect ourselves.” Well, anyway, there was this trope. There was this “It’s Black against Asian,” right, because L.A., and then if you go to Korea Town, those are the businesses that were being looted or specifically targeted. And so, that trope has reemerged again, right? “Oh, these attacks against Asian American communities, they’re all perpetrated by Black people.” And so, there’s this thing where, again, looking at White supremacy in a broader context, things that I’m starting to learn more about now, that it’s pitting two different groups against one another rather than looking at the larger issues and systemic issues that are happening that are shared across both communities. And so, because of that, that’s what we’re going to be exploring a little bit tomorrow, right, is kind of demystifying that trope, recognizing where each of these communities have some commonality, where they can stand in solidarity, how we can feel like we can be empathetic but also be accountable, right, to those things, and the complicated histories, right? I talk about how Asian Americans can sometimes perpetuate that notion of anti-Blackness. So, what is our role in that, and then where does that apply when the perceived perpetrators are they themselves Black, right? It’s not about blaming but looking at the bigger picture. So, that’s just another more current example, yet to happen tomorrow, that we’re going to be putting on. And I look forward to possibly great relationships now with John being the current director and because of the structures that I mentioned earlier in our conversation, where we work more closely together than we have previously. We’re being able to see more opportunities to collaborate and to do some programming between the Black Student Center and the Cross-Cultural Center, and that it’s more targeted, right? Another one that didn’t happen this year but perhaps the next year—one thing that we do in the Cross-Cultural Center to differentiate ourselves from some of the other spaces is we have a focus on advocacy and activism. What does that look like? We’re not going to dictate, this is how you are an activist or not, (laughs) you’re an activist. But we do believe that I think students need to know about what are some models. What are some strategies? What are—you know, protests are important, and it definitely has a place in creating change. It’s not the only way to create change. It’s the most visible way, and I think oftentimes students and others conflate that if I’m going to be an activist, I have to be out on the streets. (laughs) And so, we’re trying to provide different venues and avenues for exploring what activism and advocacy looks like. Also, as a tangent—and this goes back, sort of connected—but I’ve been a part of my professional associations and I went to conferences, and one of the things that struck me was that when a lot of these Black Lives Matter protests were occurring, it was a student who was at Stanford. He was an engineer. He was a Black student. But he talked about “I go to these protests, and I got arrested. I wasn’t expecting to be arrested, but I got arrested. And then, the rest of the semester, I had to deal with going to court, working with my lawyer,” all these things that, in the moment, he hadn’t thought about necessarily, or maybe he thought about but he didn’t think it all the way through. And so, those were all things that caused me to think about “Okay, we need to do more to help educate our students so that it’s not like ‘Hey, come with me. We’re going to go do this.’” It’s more like “Okay. If you are going to go protest and you might get arrested, what are some practical things you should know about before you go there, right?” all those things. Anyway. So, having said that—that was a lot—we, as part of that program of the Activist Lab, which is another program series we do—we were going to explore the legacy of John Lewis. So, this year, in particular, the library has—their read is the book They Came for Us, by George Takei, which is a graphic novel, and the power of graphic novels. And so, March, the book by John Lewis, is a three-part book, talks and illustrates similarly and actually was inspiration, I believe, for the George Takei book, They Came for Us. So, we were going to work with the Black Student Center, going all the way back to your first question for that collaboration, of trying to do a book discussion about March, right? What was John Lewis’s legacy? How did he, at his young age, decide to do what he did when it came to protesting and sitting in diners where he wasn’t supposed to be? So, again, this was just through a lens of trying to understand strategies, looking at models or individuals who could be models of what activism looks like and how do they come to those decisions. But we needed to postpone that, but that’s another example of a program where we worked with the Black Student Center or will be working with the Black Student Center in identifying programmatic opportunities and connections. And there will continue to be opportunities because very much all of our work is very intersectional in nature. We all believe that I’m not just an Asian identified individual. I’m male. I’m heterosexual or straight, right? All those identities impact one another and sometimes they coincide with some of these other spaces like the LatinX Center or the Black Student Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. Lai: Yeah. Ford: I look forward to hearing more about those programs. Lai: Yeah. (laughs) Ford: So, do you know why the Black Student Center was moved from Student Success to Student Life? Lai: Yes. I think part of it was, again, a restructuring to leverage resources. I think there was—I won’t get too much into it, but I reported up to the Vice President of Student Affairs, Dr. Lorena Checa. However, we all reported differently to different supervisors. And so, that in and of itself causes—so, I may have a different focus or approach than Student Success has an approach, right? And so, we just had different ways in which we’re doing it— (reception starts to become very choppy) Ford: Can you hold off one second? (seems to be trying to figure out how to improve reception) Lai: —instead of going in three different directions, we feel like we’re all going in the same direction. Oh, sure. Ford: So, why was the Black Student Center moved from the Student Success to Student Life? Lai: Yes. My short answer would be that it was a leveraging of resources. Whereas reporting to three different associate vice presidents, by going to a singular associate vice president or supervisor, and then to the vice president of student affairs, we are in lockstep to some degree. We still have a lot of autonomy but we’re moving in the same direction, whereas before we may have been going in three different directions because we each had a supervisor who may have had a different approach or had a thought about what we should be prioritizing. Consolidating those efforts, in my estimation, has helped us to really focus in on what is it that collectively, all five of us, how do we tell our story? Where are there areas for overlap, collaboration, or opportunities that we previously connected with? And we want to collaborate. The campus, by nature, we just tend to be collaborative in general, but even more so now. We can leverage the fact that we all have the same supervisor, the same area. We all have a similar basic mission now around this notion of student life in moving forward. Now, Student Success is a part of Student Life. It all, again, overlaps in a lot of ways. But having a singular supervisor, in my estimation, helps us to move that more successfully and hopefully make bigger strides in progressing and moving our individual agendas or our approaches more effectively and efficiently. Ford: Mm-hmm. Okay. So, what are some of the wrinkles that needed to be ironed out during the opening of the Center? Lai: I think same as anyone else, how people could fit. Who’s going to fit? (chuckles) When we could have food, do we have enough food for everyone? How much is that going to cost? Are people going to come? Are they not going to come? How do we ensure success? What is success defined as? I think those are all part of the wrinkles. We all have a blueprint for what we hope will happen, but the wrinkles are really the details in trying to figure out what needs to happen, how to ensure that those things are happening. Those are some of the early ones, I think, more than anything. Just like any new Center or space, you’ve got to publicize. And it’s funny. You could be screaming from the top. You could have a million signs— (laughs) Ford: Mm-hmm. (nods) Lai: —on the door that tell you exactly what’s going on and you still will have people go “Oh, what’s this?” Right? Because people are just not in that frame of mind. And in the same vein, you could be screaming from the rooftops, “We have a Black Student Center!” and you’ll inevitably have a student that goes “Oh. I didn’t know that we had it.” (laughs) Getting yourself visible, letting folks know about it, helping them understand what the initial purpose is, who is it for? I heard stories, and these were probably from Black students, they’d be sitting there, and people would be walking and tiptoeing by the door. They’d look inside and they would keep walking, right? Like “Is this where I’m supposed to— Can I come in?” And these were also Black students, maybe even too, to some degree, right? So, just those experiences and hesitancies, I think, are all part of the wrinkles that were a part of that sort of opening to some degree. Our program as well, in the first year, we were trying to establish what is the . . . What are the needs of the students? How do I meet those needs and ensure that this is a place that they would want to come back to? Those are all wrinkles, I think, that I think early on needed to be worked . . . And why—all the more reason that any inaugural director has a huge burden to try and lift, right, when you’re the first of any (technical difficulties) because it’s freeing as there’s no precedent. It doesn’t feel like you have to step up to anything. But at the same time there’s no real benchmark either for what that’s like (technical difficulties) And so, those are all the wrinkles and things that people sorted through in the early days of the Black Student Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, what do you feel like the main purpose of the creation of the Center was? I knew you went into a little bit of detail on that before, but in your opinion. Lai: Yeah. I think that there is an acknowledgment and a desire that spaces like these can be helpful in supporting students in their efforts (technical difficulties) I feel like (technical difficulties) just as they need to be able to move forward. There are ways in which that can be manifest. There are different models. I came from a—I told you about the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine where I did my undergrad and then eventually worked for a couple of years. They were established in the early ‘70s, but then higher education has gone through budget cuts and then sometimes it does well. So, there’s a lot of these cycles. And there was a moment in time where “We don’t have money. So, we’re going to consolidate everything. And then, we’ll have specialists,” right? And then, there’s other times where it’s like they see it’s a dedicated space, right? And so, I think we go through cycles like that. And so, I think regardless of the efforts that I may have tried to do or contribute, either in supporting the student organization, I wasn’t Black, you know. And that’s not a dig and saying that you have to be in order to. I just didn’t really have that perspective or experience. And so, I think there was a need to have a Center or a space dedicated, especially in light of Black Lives Matter and a lot of these things that are issues that are more complex and complicated that I think require those people to be able to—And even then (next few words unintelligible due to reception) that’s of value for any particular challenge. So, I think there’s that. There was the fact that students wanted it, right? And there was a desire for that. And so, we want to support students in those efforts. But we also want to make sure that students are doing it thoughtfully and not, as I said, just because they want a space. They need to be able to justify why. And I think they were able to articulate that there was a need. So, to me, that’s the reason why I think a Black Student Center needed to exist. There was not enough programming or attention being paid to the issues that the Black community needed to address at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the Black Student Center helped to fill that void to some degree (technical difficulties) individuals who focused their specifically on the needs of the Black community and how to move those efforts forward. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, do you think that purpose has been accomplished? Lai: I think it’s in process. I think that we’re moving in the right direction. I believe so. I think all those things I mentioned about our students coming, how do we generate those. Because students come every year, right, and cycle through every four years, in a lot of ways because people that are coming in don’t always have the context or the history. And so, I think it can feel repetitive but for the student who has never been there, it’s the first time they’re hearing this information and what the purpose of the Black Student Center might be. And so, to your question, yes, they are accomplishing it. I feel like they’re moving in that direction. I think that they’re building community. I feel like we’re there tackling and connecting with spaces like mine across (technical difficulties) the Cross-Cultural Center (technical difficulties) to really (technical difficulties) because there are so many (technical difficulties) you know, or if you are Black from Africa versus Black in the United States. All of those things I think are part of that direction and effort of what the Black Student Center is trying to accomplish. And so, I believe, yes, they are moving in the right direction, and there’s always going to be opportunities to do better. But I feel confident that they’re making strides. The fact that we get a chance to talk about the oral history and talking about the history of the Center is a positive step in the right direction, to acknowledge its origins and also perspective on what its impact has been on Cal State San Marcos. And, for me, that means that if you have the ability to go back and reflect, that means you kind of have a good . . . because early on, it’s hard to know where you want to go when you don’t know where you’ve been, is something I learned from a mentor. And so, history, context has been such a part of my own professional development. And so, I was excited and why I was “Oh, yeah. I want to sign up. I want to be a part of this project,” because these pieces are helpful for future generations to understand what it was, why it was created, why it should be continued or why I think they should continue to fight for its existence in the future, regardless of whatever may happen in the future. Ford: So, how did the Black Student Center opening impact you personally? Lai: I was excited for it. I think I could see individuals, as I mentioned, who maybe hung out in our spaces prior really excited and really happy that they had a space that they felt like they could call their own, right? Again, not to say they couldn’t come downstairs and hang out in the Cross-Cultural Center, but a space that they feel like they had a connection to. Very much like when I shared with you my own personal experience with (technical difficulties) race formational center because I was going through this sort of with my own identity development. I saw very much in them what I saw in myself many, many years ago at UC Irvine, that they felt like they had a place that they felt a direct connection to. It wasn’t necessarily transactional. It wasn’t like “I’m just here to use the computer.” It was a space where they could go and they could find community, where they could be themselves. And I didn’t say this but where you could go and be yourself without having to explain yourself to anyone else, if that makes sense, right? (technical difficulties) a lot of places where there’s a lot of diverse people and then people ask you questions and you’re like “Okay. I’ve got to talk about that again,” versus you go to spaces like a Black Student Center if you’re Black in particular, and people just get you, right? There’s not a what? Why? What? You know, it’s just they get you. So, I think I saw that energy being—and I still see it now, right, with the students that decide or choose to be a part of those spaces. And so, that’s kind of (technical difficulties), that I’ve observed and seen. Anytime there’s a new space that is focused on the wellbeing and success of student populations, particularly those that are marginalized, I think I’ve come to appreciate and be optimistic that those spaces can serve a greater purpose, right, and how they can help students in their own personal development much like the Cross-Cultural Center did for me when I was at UC Irvine. Ford: So, with how everything is, what would you expect next to see from the Black Student Center? Lai: That’s a great question. That’s a John (Rawlins III), the director, question. I guess what I would hope to see is opportunities to engage in broader conversations, right, of what Blackness looks like in the many other spaces or other communities. I would love to see a large number of students get (technical difficulties) and come into Cal State San Marcos as their first choice, not necessarily just because there’s a Black Student Center, but because there’s a sense that the Cal State San Marcos campus is dedicated to Black excellence, is dedicated to the success of students, and it’s demonstrated because the students have this. It’s one of multiple pieces, right? But it can play an integral piece in the cocurricular experience that students have. I’m in Student Affairs and what that means is that I look at the co-curriculum, what happens outside of the classroom. There’s a lot that happens inside the classroom, but I often believe that if they have a great experience outside of the classroom, those narratives, those anecdotes, those stories supplement what they learn in the classroom, right? There’s this theory. How does this thing—? You’re like, “Well, I have experienced that. Can I translate that into better experiences?” So, it’s the cycle and there is some reciprocity. What happens inside the classroom, what happens outside the classroom, there’s a symbiotic relationship. And so, I look forward to a time when the Black Student Center can continue to play a critical role in those efforts for our Black students at Cal State San Marcos. I guess long term, and optimistically, I hope that like “Oh my gosh. They got an amazing Black Student Center at Cal State San Marcos.” And so, that definitely is going to be the reason why I want to be able to go there, right? They’ve got some amazing programs or initiatives that are unique or novel. They look at it a little bit differently. They’re very creative, right? That you wouldn’t necessarily (technical difficulties) I think those are things that I look forward to, right? I’m also aware of the fact that our current structure—John is the only director (chuckles) ; there’s a lot of us who help—that it's not his burden to bear alone, if that makes sense, right? Just like when we talk about issues of diversity or issues of inclusive excellence, it’s not just a diversity people. It’s not the people of color’s responsibility alone. Everyone has to play a role. And so, in that same vein, the Black Student Center’s success will also hinge on my ability to provide and support them and help them to be successful in my own contributions, whether it’s being a part of this, finding ways to assist them and help them in their efforts, defending them when necessary, when people go “Why do we need a Black Student Center?” and helping to foster and build a stronger community together. Ford: So, are there any other questions that I haven’t asked that I could or which you want to add or anything else? Lai: No. It was pretty thorough. I was curious because as I was hearing about the oral history project, I know we talked about it. I said, “Okay, you want to send me the questions?” And you’re like “Oh, no. It’s just going to be a conversation.” So, I had no idea what the questions are going to be. And so, I was like “Why do they care what my childhood was like?” (both laugh) Because this is for the Black Student Center Oral History Project. But I appreciate those questions, and--and motivations, right, for my connection to the Black Student Center. In my self defense, I am someone or co-conspirator to some degree, someone who wants to create positive change in the community. I’m still doing the work every day and trying to figure out what I could do better each time, what to do differently, right, in a way that hopefully is helpful. I still learn from John, the director, and help support him. So, yeah. So, thank you so much— Ford: Thank you so much for letting me interview you. That was a wonderful— Lai: —for the opportunity. (I don’t have) anything else to add other than yeah, for the opportunity to share with you and to get to know you better, or at least partially, right? (both laugh) Ford: Thank you so much. Lai: Of course, Ayana. I think that’s it for me, right? Is there any other questions or no? Ford: No. Lai: We’re good? Ford: Yeah. Lai: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 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Interview, April 19, 2021 Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai was the director CSUSM's Cross-Cultural Center from 2011 - 2023, where he engaged with students and their social justice and activism. Lai attended the University of California Irvine before coming to Cal State San Marcos. Lai saw the growth of the Black Student Center, and helped it grow by supporting and aiding students. In this interview, Lai also discusses his life and childhood. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-03 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Racism -- California -- Irvine Student success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Irvine (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai Activists and activism Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Martin Leyva OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Leyva, Martin. Interview October 27, 2022 SC027-19 02:24:21 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection Campus oral histories CSUSM csusm Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment Parolees Prison-industrial complex San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) Transitions (Program) California State University San Marcos. Project Rebound MiraCosta College. Transitions Program Palomar College. Transitions Program Martin Leyva Sean Visintainer mp4 LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.mp4 1.0:|16(8)|33(11)|51(12)|62(7)|79(8)|91(15)|111(5)|126(4)|145(12)|155(12)|178(8)|192(7)|205(5)|218(8)|235(15)|251(15)|270(10)|282(11)|295(4)|311(3)|321(3)|341(3)|350(13)|363(6)|379(14)|391(4)|402(11)|414(3)|425(9)|443(8)|461(12)|479(13)|491(3)|507(8)|525(8)|539(6)|551(17)|572(13)|585(11)|600(6)|614(11)|628(18)|647(5)|673(10)|707(13)|728(4)|749(10)|770(5)|800(9)|813(10)|822(10)|849(8)|862(12)|875(12)|907(17)|916(12)|941(13)|954(7)|972(5)|988(9)|1013(15)|1034(12)|1055(4)|1068(6)|1098(4)|1113(9)|1147(4)|1179(8)|1198(7)|1225(3)|1243(4)|1262(14)|1293(17)|1310(7)|1329(11)|1347(16)|1364(8)|1406(2)|1460(5)|1478(4)|1494(4)|1519(16)|1538(18)|1557(9)|1589(7)|1603(4)|1626(8)|1642(12)|1664(9)|1693(10)|1720(13)|1739(4)|1750(3)|1777(3)|1789(3)|1809(4)|1842(11)|1866(20)|1900(16)|1918(19)|1928(12)|1947(7)|1967(4)|1986(7)|1998(13)|2023(17)|2041(15)|2062(12)|2076(7)|2097(3)|2119(16)|2147(9)|2158(9)|2173(6)|2204(3)|2225(4)|2238(4)|2251(17)|2273(5)|2305(2)|2317(9)|2328(10)|2347(9)|2360(5)|2386(10)|2406(15)|2425(5)|2444(16)|2472(12)|2494(9)|2506(17)|2530(4)|2543(12)|2563(4)|2582(7)|2600(10)|2611(3)|2622(6)|2641(6)|2666(10)|2678(10)|2700(4)|2721(9)|2732(3)|2747(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c5caf9a55a3ead1fafbf38f16091217c.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Introduction of Martin Leyva (narrator) and date and place of interview (October 27th, 2022 at California State University San Marcos University Library). 0 23 Roles at Cal State San Marcos, Palomar College, and MiraCosta College Leyva discusses his roles with Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, as well as with the Transitions Programs at Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges, and his role as a Professor of Sociology. Leyva also discusses the Rising Scholars community college program, and what support from university and system administrations, as well as the nonprofit sector looks like. California State University San Marcos ; MiraCosta College ; Palomar College ; professional development ; Project Rebound ; Rising Scholars ; Transitions Program 0 494 Typical day of work Leyva discusses what a day of work is like for him, including supporting students, and the emotional labor that comes with his work, how to build trust with formerly incarcerated students, and what success looks like in his role. academic instruction ; California State University San Marcos ; emotional labor ; MiraCosta College ; Palomar College ; scholarship ; student success ; trust-building 0 1453 Santa Barbara City College and the Transitions Program Leyva relates how he was released from prison and had trouble with employment. At the recommendation of his niece, Leyva attended college and began forming a community with other formerly incarcerated students, which led to an informal support group. Leyva relates how that support group became a cohort model for formerly incarcerated individuals Employment ; Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services Office ; Santa Barbara City College ; Transitions Program 0 1764 Employment realities after prison Leyva relates issues he encountered in gaining and retaining employment after release from prison, and the barriers that formerly incarcerated people face in re-entering the workforce. Leyva recounts finding work on campus at Santa Barbara City College and recent legislation that is intended to lessen barriers for formerly incarcerated folks. Employment barriers ; Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services ; Santa Barbara City College ; student success 0 2930 Enabling success for formerly incarcerated students Leyva discusses "just showing up" as a way to model success and assist students in acclimating to an academic environment. Leyva also discusses peers doing work in assisting formerly incarcerated students and/or affecting change, and the characteristics that make for successful re-entry for people getting out of prison. belonging ; Frankie Guzman ; imposter syndrome ; James Binnall ; student success 0 3571 Pathways for formerly incarcerated students in academia Leyva discusses what majors and programs tend to be popular with formerly incarcerated students, what areas Leyva thinks we need more formerly incarcerated people involved in, and what professions they cannot be involved in for legal reasons. college majors ; Education ; employment barriers ; Human Services ; Justice Studies ; Nursing ; Political Science ; Social Work ; Sociology and Criminology ; STEM fields ; student success 0 3898 Employment in prison Leyva discusses the process of employment in prison ; how incarcerated individuals find employment, what that employment looks like, and what the pay is like for incarcerated people. Leyva also discusses what the prison-industrial complex and onshoring movement means for exploitation of labor in prisons. Leyva describes his experience working as a landscaper while in prison. labor exploitation ; landscaping ; legislation ; prison employment ; prison-industrial complex ; Thirteenth Ammendment ; UNICOR 0 4374 Media narratives Leyva discusses how media narratives and election cycles drive public policy and public perceptions of crime and impact non-violent offenders. Leyva also discusses the importance of being critical of our government, the systems in place, and our corporations. carceral system ; corporate criticism ; governmental criticism ; media narratives 0 4707 Childhood in Santa Barbara Leyva discusses his childhood in Santa Barbara and his hometown neighborhood, what his community looked like when he was growing up ; his family, his gathering places, corner stores, Ortega Park murals, barbecue, and childhood rolemodels. Leyva also discusses what his mother did for a living, and his family's work ethic. Manuel Unzueta ; murals ; Oak Park ; Ortega Park ; role models ; Santa Barbara ; work ethic 0 5339 First legal troubles, observational learning, and patriarchy Leyva discusses stealing mopeds and getting caught, observational learning, and substance abuse. Leyva also discusses modeling emotional intelligence and emotional management, sobriety, mindfulness, and the importance of dismantling patriarchy. Leyva tells the story of how he got caught with the stolen mopeds. Honda Spree ; moped theft ; observational learning ; patriarchy 0 5921 Further legal troubles and post-incarceration life Leyva describes his continuing legal troubles and trajectory into the carceral system, crime as a call for help, and how patriarchy doesn't teach skills to be emotionally vulnerable and to be supportive. Leyva also recalls severing a relationship upon coming back to his community, and what defying this meant. Leyva relates this experience to the struggles incarcerated people face in doing the work to heal. Leyva also discusses what home is to him, and how it changes during the healing process post-incarceration. healing ; Juvenile Detention ; patriarchy ; post-incarceration ; robbery ; substance abuse 0 6839 Recidivism, books and education in prison, and mentors in prison Leyva discusses how he won't say he will never be back in prison. He also recalls education in prison, and prison mentors that guided his reading and helped him start the healing process. Leyva also discusses prison subcultures and what literature is dangerous to have in prison. banned books ; critical pedogogy ; mentorship ; My Life Is a Sun Dance ; Pedagogy of the Oppressed ; prison subculture ; recidivism ; The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom 0 7746 Graduate school Leyva discusses coming to North San Diego County for graduate school at California State University San Marcos and the justice studies program in the Sociology Department. Leyva also discusses how our systems and environment drive the choices we make. Antioch University ; California State University San Marcos ; Chris Bickel ; Justice Studies ; rational choice ; Xuan Santos 0 7926 Prison abolition Leyva discusses his feelings on prison abolition, dismantling patriarchy, and feminist thought theory. Leyva describes his wishes for alternatives to incarceration and what a world without patriarchy looks like. feminism ; patriarchy ; prison abolition 0 8369 Project Rebound in the future Leyva discusses how he'd like to see Project Rebound grow, how formerly incarcerated people could have opportunity through it, and how he would like to see CSUSM's Project Rebound become a community hub and place to grow, student or not. community ; Project Rebound 0 8556 Closing thoughts Leyva offers his closing thoughts on the conversation, what his work means to him, and paying homage to his mentors through his work. global incarceration ; paying it back 0 Oral History Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community.&#13 ; &#13 ; Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Martin Leyva as part of the California State University San Marcos Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Today is Thursday, October 27th, 2022, and the interview is taking place at the University Library at Cal State San Marcos. Martin, thank you so much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about the work that you do, and I was wondering if you can speak to your roles at Cal State as well as Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges. Martin Leyva: Yeah. so currently I'm the program coordinator for Project Rebound here at Cal State San Marcos. Project Rebound started three years ago as a program that supports formerly incarcerated students. I'm also a lecturer within the Sociology [department] Criminology and Justice Studies [program]. And my work primarily is around formerly incarcerated students. It includes Palomar College's Transitions Program that started in 2016, 2017? 2017, and I worked there, also a professor of sociology there, as well as the support person for Transitions students. And same thing at MiraCosta, [unclear] teaches sociology, lecture and sociology there, as well as work with their Transitions students, so formerly incarcerated students. And the cool thing is now they're Rising Scholars, which is the Chancellor's, California Chancellor's Office support for formerly incarcerated folks within the community college. So that's what I do. Visintainer: What does that support look like from the -- you said the Chancellor's Office? Leyva: Yeah, so well, there's two parts. One, Project Rebound also gets support from the Chancellor's office to have programs in the CSU, provides financial support for formerly incarcerated folks. And that's the same thing at the community college with Rising Scholars Network is financial support and professional development for formerly incarcerated students all supported by the Chancellor's office. And that's all new initiatives that just happened in the last couple years. Rising Scholars just happened this past year, funding to community colleges, which is a big help, a huge help. Visintainer: How did Rising Scholars come to be? Leyva: Rising-- I mean Rising Scholars came to be because they saw the need. They saw like a lot of community colleges starting to build up and amplify their services to incarcerated and formally incarcerated students. I love the work. I started doing this work back in 2007 when I came home from prison. Started community college and you know, it's just, I don't know. It wasn't -- there wasn't a lot of support back in 2007 for formerly incarcerated folks and building that program and other programs that got built around existing programs and what we were doing at Santa Barbara City College, last 15 years is just more and more community colleges throughout the state started doing this work. Project rebound, expanded from San Francisco State on to thirteen other campuses. The UC [University of California] system started creating Underground Scholars that supported you know, Underground Scholars first started in Berkeley, and it had started expanding to the UCs. And I think the state of California just saw like, there was a movement and momentum around laws and policies and procedures that supported -- they needed to support formerly incarcerated students, because a lot were coming home and a lot were going to college. And it's been nothing but positivity, you know, I mean, the more they realize, the more degrees we get, the less the likelihood of us going back to prison drops significantly. And they started to fund them. So, it's been so beautiful to watch. Visintainer: Yeah. For sure. What you mentioned the that there's financial support and professional development that's provided and what does that look like? Leyva: So, professional development-- someone like myself who's been to prison, who's got a record it's really hard, especially in areas like this state, right? To get a job with felonies on your record or having an extensive background. But a lot of these programs, they're actually encouraging for institutions to hire people with lived experience. And so it opens, the professional development opens up the doors to people like myself to be able to come work for -- you know, it's interesting because at one point, how much distrust, and I dunno what the word is, distrust. And just like I was property of the state for a long time. &lt ; Affirmative&gt ; [Be]cause property of the county from county probation to the state of California being in prison and on parole, you're property of the state, and then to suddenly go to work for the state, it's kind of an interesting trajectory. But the professional development is they're encouraging institutions to hire formerly incarcerated folks to lead the charge to work with formerly incarcerated students. And I think that, that, I could see myself in admin work now. I could see myself as, you know, someday becoming like a dean of a department or-- and that was something I never thought as a formerly incarcerated individual that I'd ever see myself at that level. And I think that that through Project Rebound, I'm able to see myself as, "Wow, I can actually do this." And that's the part of the professional development, because if I was to leave here, I'm building the skills it takes to continue this work in other academic institutions or nonprofits or, you know what I mean, other places. And I think that there's a lot of skills that's being built working for the university. So-- Visintainer: So it's skill building its opening doors with state government also, I assume with private organizations. Leyva: Yeah. I mean, again, the nonprofit sector. A lot of organizations that are taking on issues around incarceration, around formerly incarcerated, around reentry you know, there are big nonprofits too. And you know, this is the professional development that if I was to leave the university, which I don't foresee me leaving the university anytime soon. You know, I got skills to be able to apply for these jobs that I would've never had. Right? And I'd be taking leadership or taking mentorship from some of our leadership here. I'm really understanding what it is to maybe someday lead an organization, right? And yeah, so the nonprofit sector even, I don't know, I don't ever foresee, like me going back to the prison system to work. But if, you know, job came up and it was, you know, proactive in helping people get out of prison, finding resources, I would take a job back into the, you know well not back into, but go back to the prison system to work to make sure that incarcerated folks had an easier time transitioning from prison to society, right? And so, I think those skills are being developed here. There's a lot of sectors that I can see myself working in. Yeah. Visintainer: So you're a lecturer. You have you have a hand in three different colleges, programs with helping formally incarcerated individuals with their college experiences. So you're very busy. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: What does, what does like a typical day of work look like for you? Leyva: A typical day of work-- it depends on the semester, but it is, it's a typical day is, you know, get up, get ready for work, you take care of your household things, show up to university, check in, do your emails, support students, check in on students. Prepare for meetings, prepare agendas for meetings attend a lot of meetings. &lt ; Laugh&gt ; There's a lot of meetings in the university. And it's in, it's also preparing for class. And I don't prepare for class. You know, that's usually after hours or before work. And then, you know, different schedules, different colleges, different days. You know Monday, Wednesday for instance, I'm at MiraCosta teaching formerly incarcerated folks, sociology intro class. So, you know, the typical lecture here's the information, the grading, the mentoring of students. Tuesday, Thursday, I'm doing the same thing for Palomar College. And then quite honestly, I mean I stay busy, so I go home and I'm prepared a little food, hang out with the dog, and then all of a sudden you're--[be]cause I'm also in a doctoral program right now. So gotta do research, gotta write. It's a very &lt ; laugh&gt ; now that I say that out loud, it's super busy. But you know, I think that I also see the importance all of it, right? I see the opportunity that has been placed in front of me. And I know that there's a good benefit to it all right? I think it's also-- I stay busy as a formerly incarcerated individual. I know a lot of formerly incarcerated individuals are watching me and they see me and they could see them-- They could see their lives changing too. And I think that that's the super important part is that the mentoring that I've gotten, I got to give it away, right? And so that's a typical day is just, you know, Monday through Friday and on weekends, hopefully get a little downtime and hang out a little bit, if not, you know, I'm sitting there researching, writing, and grading and-- Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Wouldn't trade my life for anything. Cause I think I've seen the worst of worst and I don't wanna see that anymore. And I think I can do something about that if I continue to do what I do. So-- Visintainer: So you mentioned that you-- part of your day is supporting students and checking in with students. And I imagine, and I'm making a bit of an assumption here, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that there's a significant amount of emotional labor that goes into your work. What, I guess my question is what is the emotional labor that goes into assisting students with their transition to college life? Leyva: Yeah, there's a lot of emotional labor attached to it. [Be]cause it's not just formally incarcerated students here, when I teach here at the university, I'm teaching sociology to undergraduate students from all walks of life. And but when it comes to students in general, I think a lot of students still, especially at the community college, working with them, they struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. A lot of less, you know, they don't have the best self-esteem or self-value. A lot of 'em can't believe that they can actually make it. And you know, you want to support them as much as you can, you know, encourage them. Words of encouragement, sharing, you know, even the tutoring part, which is second nature to me: this is how you write a paper. This is what you should think about with research. Like, that's, that's like second nature to me now. But I also remember what it was like to be a student coming outta prison and going through education, which I'm still doing now. I've built so many skills and other skills I give away. But there's a lot of times where I think the emotional, real emotional labor comes is when students don't succeed. Right. We still have a lot of students that deal with the barriers, you know the getting a job, the family unification, addiction, alcoholism, even students that still deal with, you know, family trauma, neighborhood trauma, like gangs and stuff, right? And you, a lot of times I tell students, you, especially coming from that background, I tell students, you gotta be careful having one foot in your trauma and one foot in education, cause one of them's gonna win. And we try our best to have education heal that trauma, but a lot of times we see students go back to the old ways and that, you know, it's a little emotional taxing. I just shared in a discussion I had today that you can't change the person who's not ready to change, but what you can do is just plant the seeds that help them change, you know, and keep an open door. But there is, I find myself, this is actually a really good question cause I find myself at night when I lay down, my brain will tell me what to do next because I'll think about that student that still struggles and that's emotional. Like I carry that with me. And I think it's also a motivator to be like, "Okay, here's what I can do different. Here's who I can reach out to." This work is not just me. It is a huge community around. And there's a lot of emotional labor with that, you know, And again, just students that you know, I had mentors believe in me before I believed in myself. And there's still areas where I don't believe in myself where I still have people believing in me. And that's the thing, like I always tell students, Don't worry, you might not believe in yourself now, but I believe in you. You can do this. You might be looking through distorted eyes, but I could see the clear picture, you know, and it's a matter of them just trusting you. We also deal with the population that doesn't trust very well. You know what I mean? And so that can be emotionally taxing. It can be. And but again, we show up, we role model. And eventually the more you show up, the more they show up because they, you know, you're role modeling what you want them to do. And that's, that's super important. So. Visintainer: Is, is that the key to building trust or are there other things that you do to build that relationship? I assume there's like a feeling out stage that happens and then there's a trust that's built. I guess my question is how do you go about building trust with somebody? Leyva: I think that the students that gravitate towards me also recognize that there's a big similarity. Whether it's like, cause I, I'm very open with students, [I'm] a student in recovery, been clean and sober nineteen years. I'm a student whose, or an individual who has addressed a lot of healing within myself. And I think that when students know where I've come from and know where I'm at, they still see me for where I come from. So I'm an insider for a lot of them, right? And so there's already trust there. But again, it's also to like and I'll say it straight up, "You might not trust me now, but eventually you will." And it gets to that point where they're like, you know, you're reliable. You know, they're gonna call, they're gonna email. They don't really email. They'll call or text. And I answer and whatever they need, I say, Here, look, call this person. Go here, go that or come see me. I'll go, I'll meet you. Come to the office, or whatever. And students we rely on each other and they also know we're like-minded. You know I'll never tell a student to do something that I haven't done or not doing. I'll never ask a student to step outta their comfort zone without support. Right. And so they know that they're always gonna be supported and and cared for. They're always gonna be seen. And so, yeah, I think it, it takes a little bit to build trust, but it happens. It happens. And this is also, goes back to that question about professional development, is it's important to bring people into these institutions who actually have the lived experience of the people coming in. Visintainer: Hm-hmm. Leyva: Because we're here trying our best to succeed. And we're showing these folks that are just like us, just at a different level, that they too can be here. And they know that. It's like, there's like this insider trust, this insider knowledge, this insider acceptance that, you know I see them, they see me, and we have each other. We're gonna hold each other accountable. I will hold, I will hold students accountable. Right? And this isn't just formally incarcerated students, which is most of my workers around this has to do with students who are in the classroom here at Cal State San Marcos, who are also like Chicano or Chicana. They come from this marginal background. Maybe they're first generation, actually most of them are first generation. And then they see a professor. Cause I don't look like a typical professor, but they recognize my aesthetics, their language, my dress style. They recognize that as very similar to them. And so then you become those mentors for those students. Right. You know, when they come see you at the office, it's like, "Oh yeah, check out this resource, check out that resource." And nobody's really sharing with them that knowledge and introducing them to folks on campus that can help support their success. Right. Or their, their trajectory towards success. And the trust gets built and once it's built, it's there, right. And it's also always being there. And I, and I laugh because it's like, I've had students share with me, like, "Every time I call you answer." I'm like, "Trust me, that's my job. Because I believe in you." Right. And I want to be there for you. And cause a lot of times we deal with students who understand what disappointment and abandonment looks like. And if they come here and they get the same treatment, they're not really gonna be successful. Or, you know, the retention rates for them are gonna drop and we're not gonna hold onto them. And so I think it's important to have someone like me, someone like Dr. Xuan Santos, some of the other professors on this campus who mirror, you know, Rafael Hernandez. A lot of professors on this campus who come from the backgrounds of our students and students can see themselves in our places. And that's what we want. So it all starts with trust. We have to, they have to build trust first. And we just go from there, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Can you talk about a great success that you had at work with either a student or a policy change? I'm just interested, like, what does a really great day at work look like and feel like? Leyva: What's a really great day at work look like? Actually quite a few and, you know, I'll share one. So I had a student, it was my first year actually teaching here. It was I felt like I'd been teaching a really long time, but after I got my master's degree here, and I started, like the following semester, I had a class and a student in this class who was very quiet, very reserved. And he was just kind of like, came out, came up with me after class. He's like, "I've never seen a professor like you." And then he started to share about him, his upbringing and his family. And right away I gravitated towards like, what this student was sharing and how he can be successful. And it was a little mentor/mentee relationship built. And a great day here is when you get the email says, I decided to go to grad school. I want to apply for this program. Can you help me? And I'm like, yes! And we're, I'm writing a letter for him for grad school. And then he gets, he sends me another letter. I got into grad school. And just that last semester, spring, spring quarter last year, he graduated with a master's degree in social work. Visintainer: Awesome. Leyva: Got a student in my office right now who formally incarcerated. He spent twenty-nine years in prison, came out an older gentleman. I met him when he first came out and he started Palomar to be able to help him. He got two associates degrees, came here, got his bachelor's degree, and he just started his first year of graduate school, right. And it's, I have, there's, so I'm truly-- I feel blessed because I have like, so many little stories. And I say little because they're gonna continue to grow, because these individuals are also gonna guide the next generation of students coming in. That helps. I mean that's success to me. And then just being part of, like, when I first started Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College, to watch that program kind of grow into this big thing that policy changes, where finally, politicians are saying we need to fund programs and start programs and to see programs. Community college goes into schools-- community college goes into jails and prisons to teach associates degrees, and to me, success is like knowing that I played a small part in that. Right. And to be able to be an advocate and a voice for people ending life without the possibly of parole for minors who went to prison and playing a small part in that. Now you ask that question, I'm like, 'cause I never really think about it. I just do the work. Yeah. I just kinda show up and, and everything about, you know, like, what's, what's success to you? I'm like, you know, just show up to work. But to realize now when you say that, [unclear] had even just a small part of all these beautiful things. And as my mentor, Dr. Chris Bickel, he says, he's like, "Man, the work just began for you." Right. Yeah, I never really even think about it. Just kinda show up to do work. &lt ; laughs&gt ; And, yeah, I think that's every day too. You get students show up in the office and they get to share, like, "I got an A on this test, thank you!" And I'm like, "Don't thank me. I didn't do no-- I didn't do the study and I didn't do, I just gave you a couple encouraging words and you showed up, you took the test. It's not me, it's you, right?" And I think that you know, I get at least one piece of good news every day and that's a good thing. So, yeah. Never even thought about that, man. Thanks. Visintainer: &lt ; Laughs&gt ; Well, you're welcome. Thank you for sharing. Let's see. So, you started the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. Can you talk a little bit about how the Transitions Program there came to be? Leyva: Yeah, so I got released from prison in 2007. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew was I didn't wanna back to prison. Education was not really on my mind. Change was though, right? Just not going back to jail. Not going back to prison. Not using drugs, not using alcohol, not going back to the neighborhood. I knew that that was what I didn't want. But I lost-- because of my record, I lost three jobs in three months. And my niece just had this idea, "Why don't you go to school?" And I went to the, I went to Santa Barbara City College. I was scared. It was the first time I'd really ever felt like I was-- you know I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. I didn't feel like I belonged there. I didn't fit in [unclear] scared. My niece was the one who really practically held my hand in my first semester. And I always tell folks: that transition started out of an act of fear because I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. And every time I went to the parole office, I was telling another formerly incarcerated individual. Back then, we were still using the word convict, right. And I'd be like, "Hey, you should come up and check out school." Selfishly, I wanted him there. Right. And I also saw two individuals I'd always see at the parole office. I saw 'em on campus. And I did really quickly, I recognized I didn't have the ability to ask for help. I didn't have the ability to raise my hand. I read and I was engaged in here, but I wasn't vocal about what I was learning. And these two individuals were Black. They're Black men. And in prison we walk around really fine racial lines. Right. These unwritten rules around race. And so, I at the time I was kind of scared to approach them because of race, but I was still institutionalized. And then really quickly, I said, I want to be here and I know they want to be here. And so I approached them, Tyrone and Malik and I introduced myself to them. We just got to talking about school, classes. Then they also felt the exact same things I was feeling. And next thing you know, we started a little support group. Me, Malik, Tyrone, and then there was a woman that joined and another person that joined another person-- and then we just started this transitions support group that turned into the school EOPS Director at the time, Marsha Wright, I said, "Hey, we need a little spot to meet." And she's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna get you a room so you can continue the support group." And that happened so quickly. The summer right after that, we had our very first cohort model of education for formerly incarcerated individuals. And I think the first cohort we had like fourteen formerly incarcerated students. Second, we had like twenty-two, then we had twenty-five, and we had twenty-five every year after that up until Covid, because Covid shut down a lot of the programs. But, you know, the Transitions Program was born and you know, addressing access to college, recruiting resources, you know learning disabilities, like a lot of the departments got involved because they saw a big need. And there this was the small community of Santa Barbara. We have students coming from Ventura, from San Louis Obispo to do the program. And so I think that that sparked the conversation. You know, campuses should address that. It's been such a pleasure and honor to be a part of that. Cause when I moved out here in 2016 to come to school, Cal State San Marcos, that first year we took it to MiraCosta and MiraCosta ran with it for one year. Second year I was here. Palomar. We had approached Palomar. Palomar started their Transition Program, which still both, now both campuses have one. And they're doing such amazing work. Right. And yeah, like I said, you know, it sparked a good movement. It's an honor to be fifteen years removed. I would say I'm fifteen years removed from prison, but I'm fifteen years born in education. Right. And that feels good to be part of that work. Visintainer: Yeah. I have so many follow up questions from what you just said. I'm gonna try and frame 'em in kind of a logical order. Okay. So you, you mentioned that you tried three jobs after getting out of prison. And did you say you were let go from 'em? Yeah. what were the jobs? Leyva: My first job was doing construction. My neighbor, I paroled back to my sister's house and the neighbor was, you know, essentially a good guy. His name's Joe. He was doing construction at the time. He said, I can get you a job at this construction company. And I was excited to work. Two things happened with that job. One, it was a big commercial industrial construction company they built, wasn't like building houses. We were building huge buildings. They ran a background check and it took about, you know, twenty days to then to come back. And they came back and this says, it's a lot of liability here. You just got out of prison and so we can't get you the job. The other thing was my parole officer. I was in Santa Barbara County and literally the job site was about three miles outside Ventura County. So, because I left Santa Barbara County into Ventura County, he's like, "You can't have that job." I'm like, "It's a job though, right?" And so not only did the construction company not continue employing me because there was a lot of liability, parole officer said, "You can't leave the county." Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: So I lost that job. So then my sister introduced me to temporary work. Right. A temp agency. And I got a job with, great job with, Powell-Peralta working, making skateboards. I thought that was a great job-- Visintainer: Cool! Leyva: Loved the skate culture. Right. And it was really cool designs and was learning how to make boards and the temp agency, I was working there. I, you know and after thirty days of working there they said, "Oh, we want to hire you're a good worker. You show up, you do your job. And you're--" They really liked me. And, to go from temp agency to permanent employment, they ran a background check and they also said, "You know, you're just too fresh out. You just gotten out a couple months," or not even a month maybe a month and a week, month and two weeks or two months, whatever. So then they didn't hire me on. And then I went to go work for janitorial, same temp agency. I was doing janitorial, cleaning buildings at night, nobody in sight, just me and you know, cleaning supplies. And after the same thing, after thirty days, they said, "We really like your work. You're good. Let's hire you on." And then background check. And so it was, it deflated me pretty quick. Like, it was just exhausting. I just, I just wanted to do well. I wanted to do good and I wanted to make some money for my kids and get back on track, whatever that meant. And that's why when my niece introduced me to school, should I go to school and then I think when I attended, started Santa Barbara City College, my parole officer said, "Well, I'm glad you're in school, but that's not a job." Right. FAFSA's not money. And I was like, It's kind of money &lt ; laughs&gt ; , right? But he's like, "No, you need a job." And then fairly quickly, I remember talking to my EOP counselor, EOPS counselor and I said, "I need a job." And she's just like, "Oh, this this thing called federal work study. You should try to get a job on campus." And I was like, "What's that?" So I explored it. Next thing you know, I'm working for English as a Second Language Department and I was doing administrative assistant work. And I'm like, "How am I do--? I don't even know what I'm doing!" But they gave me an opportunity. City College said, you know, you don't have certain crimes, so we're just gonna hire you. And I was like &lt ; surprised gesture&gt ; "Hmm." You know, next thing I know I'm working in, and I've been working in education since. An interesting thing is, same thing that happened to me back in 2007, trying to get a job is the same thing happening to people now. And this is why, again, this work is so important. We address those issues. We hire students on campuses. So. Visintainer: And you said the construction company said that the insurance liability was too much. And so when formerly incarcerated individuals are coming back and they're getting jobs and they're going through these background checks, I assume that's just a huge barrier. And things like insurance liability come up. How do you address that with students that you're mentoring and how do folks get over that barrier? Leyva: Yeah. Well now, I mean, this is the other thing about doing this work for so long: policy change has happened. Now we have the Fair Chance Act where you give me a job application and it says, "Have you been convicted of a felony?" You don't actually-- you don't have to mark anything down anymore. This allows for your application, at least to maybe go through the second process of an interview. They cannot run a background check on you until they hire you. So I always tell students, "You know what?" 'Cause some students just don't know, some formerly incarcerated folks just don't know. They see that box and they just don't even-- why is that box still on the application? I don't know. It should be removed from all applications, especially in the state of California. But I tell them, "If you see that box, don't even mark it. Put in all your skills, send me your resume, let's hook up your resume." Even if somebody doesn't have any real work experience for, you know maybe there's a five-year gap because they've been in prison, there's still skills being built, whether you worked in laundry, worked in the kitchen, did landscaping, did some type of machine shop, there's skills that are being built and we can put that in your resume. And so working with students, and the hard part is working with formerly incarcerated folks, we don't come in contact with all formerly incarcerated folks. So there's still a large portion, a large population of formerly incarcerated individuals who don't get this mentorship. But the ones that do, you know, let's work on your communication. Let's work on interview skills, let's work on all this stuff so that when they're ready to go for that job, they have a little bit of a leg up. Right. And you know, the Fair Chance Act has really given a lot of formerly incarcerated folks the opportunity to get work. Now, is it a livable wage? Probably not, but it's something, right? It's a starting point. But it's still an uphill battle. Cause we have a student currently in Project Rebound right now who is just having a hard time trying to find a job with a decent wage and attend school full time. And thinking about, you know, doing something different like truck driving school until you can save some money. There's still a lot of barriers. And as much mentorship and guidance we can give, there's still certain jobs that say, "Yeah, we wanna hire 'em." And then as soon as they find that there is a criminal background, you know, just like pull the blanket out or pull the carpet out from underneath you and you feel like you're stage one again. Right. And so it's hard. That's the other-- that's the emotional labor that we were talking about earlier. It's like, you know, I feel like I've reached a place in my career where I feel okay, but it's hard to be here knowing that there's so many other folks that still don't feel that yet. And it's both emotionally taxing, but also I feel grateful too because it's like, I understand that I've been in those shoes before and it's like, just keep showing up for them and they'll be okay. And telling them, show for yourself. You know, show for yourself. So, Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. I have a question, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly. I'm gonna let it gestate as we continue talking. Cause I'm not entirely sure what I want to ask, if that makes sense. There's something there if that makes sense. Leyva: Yeah. It makes total sense to me. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Okay. So let's see. So let's circle back then to the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. And we've talked a little bit about how that came to be. That was-- it was really interesting. And I guess something that you mentioned there was a cohort that started and it was a smaller cohort, and then it grew as the years go on. And I was curious about how that communication starts. When before you have a program and you know that there are formerly incarcerated students on your campus, how do you get the word out about a program to help them? Leyva: It was really grassroots. So I'll start from the very-- like me and Tyrone, Malik, Christina, the number of folks in the very beginning, we would sit at this little bench on campus, right? And we would meet each other there in the morning. We'd talk about school, talk about tutoring, talk about resources. We'd support each other. But when you see a group of formerly incarcerated people or people that &lt ; airquote gesture&gt ; look formally incarcerated, the cops are also looking, right? You can see campus security, like, you know, what's this group of people doing here? Right? And I've been asked too, when the early days by campus security or can I help you? Are you a student here? I'm like, Yeah, I'm a student here. And they're like, "Can I see your ID?" And I'm like, at the time I'm like, I'm on parole. I'm like, "Yes, you can see my ID." Technically they had no right to do that right. I didn't know that. So I knew that there was like this surveillance aspect that was happening to us. And so that's why I approached the school, not to start a program, but to, "Hey, can you give us a safe place to meet?" Here's this group of people. We're all formerly incarcerated, We're all here. And it was like, yeah. So that's, that's that entry to the, to the dialogue as we're here and we need a safe place. And I said, you know, the campus security is always like looking at us or questioning one of us when we're coming into the college. And so the people that I was talking to were like, "Oh, that's not right. They shouldn't do that." Right. And they help us help ourselves by saying, If they ask you that, you don't have to answer any questions. You can actually call me or whatever. Right. They were really supportive. But then you realize when you start asking more and more formally incarcerated people to come to school, that something needs to happen. And the good thing is, is that the school, especially EOPS at that time at Santa Barbara City College, still to this day, their goal is to help marginal students their whole, And they saw the need really quickly, and they said, "You think you can get a program started?" And I was like, I actually know I can get a program started, but what is a program? Right? And they asked me like, "What do you think a program would look like?" I said, "We get a whole classroom for formerly incarcerated folks." I don't even know what you would teach, but we could all learn together and we can support each other and we can build I don't even know if I knew what the definition of cohort was before that. And then I was told, "You think you can get a cohort going?" And I just said, I didn't know what it was. I was like, "Sure. What is it?" You know what I mean? But, just-- they were really supportive. And then next thing you know, they're talking funding, they're talking, you know, "Oh, we'd like to hire you as a peer advisor to run this program and do this stuff." And I was, I was just like, "Yes." Because it was a job. It was being around the people that made me comfortable, which were four other formerly incarcerated folks. I felt good about what I was doing and I was also doing drug and alcohol treatment or going to school for drug and alcohol treatment at the time so everything we were talking about in class was fitting into this model that was being built. Right. And so I had my teachers, my professors in those classes actually telling me about group process and all this other stuff. It just felt like everything was organic at that moment. And that's how the conversation started. And that's you know, I think me and Malik and Tyrone, we just ran with it, you know, and it was yeah. And that's how the conversation happened. And that's also goes back to professional development because I feel like when they start talking about funding and, you know, writing up a budget and all this stuff, I was like, I have no idea what this means. And here I am just like watching these EOPS counselors and these program coordinators talk about this stuff, and I'm watching them do the work, and I'm like, "Oh, I want to learn this." It's not something-- not a skill I've ever had or been around. Again, I didn't know it would take me to this place, but I knew that there was some skills being built there. Right. And I think I answered your question. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. What is what is EOPS? Leyva: I always get this wrong. Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services. So it's like EOP here, and here it has a different definition, but it's pretty much like EOPS is the program that yeah-- So there's like single mothers, there's you know, marginal students that need extra support. Visintainer: Mmm-hmm Leyva: They're gonna provide the, the support, the resources, the mentorship, the guidance, the tutoring. We have tutoring labs in this department. And our own academic counselors in there too. We were just like, Here's your head plan. And IGETC [Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum ; course that California community college students can complete to satisfy general education requirements] and all that other stuff that goes along with, you know, students that are getting ready to transfer. And Transitions fell into the lap of Noel Gomez in the early, his name was Noel Gomez. And we pretty much formulated the program together. He was working at administration. We had the students do the work. We started collaborating. He still runs to this day. He runs the Transitions Program. And he is the EOPS director now too, or interim director, I think. Visintainer: Okay. Leyva: So he stayed in the same field doing the same work. And it's just it's cool to still have those ties, those connections and still watching him do such beautiful work and be a mentor to me, you know, So. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: So you mentioned that the college gave you a meeting space. And then-- and then you get your first kind of cohort together. What was the-- can you talk about the first meeting that you had? Leyva: With the school or with the students? Visintainer: With the students? Leyva: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. 'Cause that was interesting because they said, "You can start your own program, or you can start this program. Can you get students?" And I said, "Yes." The first meeting was really interesting because we had a small group of students who had already started community college who were helping. But I remember just like they're like, "Just make a flyer." And I had no idea I can make a really fancy flyer now. Back then I said I think I even said "Transitions Program." Program-- ex-convicts I think was written on the flyers. Very unethical or very, like, these are not the language we're using anymore. But I had the, the email and the phone number to call. I remember making-- so funny because I made a Word document and I put the information on the top and then a copy and paste and put it below and then printed 'em out and then cut 'em in half. Like this, this is like my ideal of making flyers, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I remember, like my first conversation with students or potential students is every time I was at the parole office, I'd show up like, "Hey man, you should try to go to school where, you know, we got this program going off in school." Most people were like, uninterested or like, no, I remember even seeing one guy, he's like, "Oh, yeah, I'll check it out." And then he crumbled it up and threw it away. Right. But I'd show up to the courthouse and I'd see folks walking out of the court and I'd be like, you know, "Hey, you should try coming to school, try going to school." I'd put flyers in the sober living homes, or I'd go to sober living homes and hand out flyers or and so it was, it was that conversation. It wasn't just me. It was me and Malik and Tyrone. And even in our neighborhoods where we'd know people who were our friends that are formerly incarcerated, it'd be like, "Hey, you should try home to school." And we already knew that they were kind of tired of the old lifestyle too so they were like, "Yeah, I'll try it out." And it just quickly-- that was the first meetings. That was the first conversations about going to school. And I also knew that when they did come up to school, that I would have to show 'em, this is where the-- this is how you feel like application. This is where you do your FAFSA [Free Application for Federal Aid]. This is, you know, this is a financial aid, academic counseling or academic advising or, everything my niece showed me, I showed them. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And everything I wanted to know, I was asking EOPS counselors and director, you know, "What do I do if a student asked about a job?" And they're like, "Oh, go to Human Resources. See what jobs are available on campus, make sure they have federal work study." So I learned it all pretty quickly. And that was the conversations with students. Cause I'm like, "Look, we can you get a job up here, you can do, you can get food up here." They were, you know, there's you know, there's-- I have a learning disability, so I was a part of the DSS, the Disabled Students Program. And I was like, "Look, if you got learning disabilities," and you know trying to break that stigma too right away. Right. So it's all about gathering resources. And every time I've met with a group of students, potential students, or individually, it was like all this information that I was giving 'em. Right. So it was quickly getting the buy in, but I also felt really good about what I was doing. Yeah. You know, and that it felt good to be like, "Yeah, okay, I'll do it. I'll sign up." And then you just meet 'em at the campus and you're filling out the application. Just at that time, it was just one finger typing too. Cause I didn't know how to type either, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I, you know, I just, it just felt good. And they did, there was a lot of, still to this day, people come into college and this community college, or even come to the university, there's that imposter syndrome. "I can't do it." And it's just like, "Yes you can. Yes you can." And you know, it's still, yeah. That was the first conversation. And it's-- and it feels like it still happens to this day. Right. Even though we got somewhat of a formula, we have great people, great resources. It feels like those first conversations happen all the time. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And which even though a lot of things have changed, the individual self hasn't. "I don't believe in myself, I can't do it." And it's like, "Yes, you can. Yes you can." It feels like 2007 and 2022, those conversations are still the same. Right. So Yeah. It's conversations happen on a regular, so. Visintainer: You've talked to a couple times about Imposter Syndrome and that's like, so rampant in academia. Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: And then you throw students that are maybe not familiar with an academic environment into the mix, and you add all these barriers, these like bureaucratic and logistical barriers, like university campuses are not necessarily easy places to navigate. Especially for folks that aren't familiar with them. So how did you go about addressing and facilitating students to be successful? Navigating the bureaucracy? Leyva: You just show up &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know what I mean? You just show up. You don't wanna show up or you feel you're gonna get push back or you feel like you don't belong. I mean, there's so many feelings even now. I mean, I still deal with that now and my role in administration and I love this campus because it's been very supportive of the programs, of me, of our students. It's a great community. Even Palomar, MiraCosta is very open. But you just show up. You just, you just show up. And I think for me, and I think also too, for a lot of our students, we know it's waiting for us if we don't show up, you know. We know what the other side of this looks like. The gangs, the drugs, the alcohol, the jails, the prisons. And that's not for all, all of us, right? There's not drugs and alcohol with everybody. But we understand what's on the other side. If we're not doing this, what else do we have? Right? And so we just show up and it feels good to actually do this work. And when that imposter syndrome or you know, that belief in self isn't there, or our value is low, self-esteem is low, we still just show up. You know, we show up. And I, you know, I think I've seen people show up and I'm like, "God, I have to do that." Cause I get in my own head. And I know that same thing when I show up, other people show up and it's like we're there. Right. You just show up and the bureaucracy is the bureaucracy, it's gonna be there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: When I'm getting pushback, not the funding or, "You can't do that program," or you can't, you know, it's like I always tell folks we've heard no so many times their life is here. No. Again, it's not gonna hurt us, but we're still gonna show up, you know? And I think that we've had a lot of doors closed our faces or a lot of denials for jobs or resources. And it happens with formerly incarcerated folks it happens and it's gonna, it's gonna happen even more, but we're still gonna show up. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And we're still gonna show that we can do the work. We're gonna do the work. And statistically thinking or talking that's like all incarcerated people in the United States, 95% of people are coming home someday. And that always is one of those driving things to say, like, coming home to what? Let's create something so that when they do come home, there's resources in the community. There's resources in academia, there's resources that're gonna help their mental health, their PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder], their you know, and we have to, we have to build those really soft landings for folks to come home and have a fighting chance to make it in society. You know? And I think that we live within a system that still, even though we see a lot of positivity and we're going in the right direction, there's still a lot of barriers. There's still a lot of doubt. There's still an industrial complex in the prison that relies on our labor, relies on our, the exploitation of who we are. There's still laws and policies and politicians that say, "Well, we can create these laws and policies to continue funneling people into the prison system." It still exists. And it's-- I mean, we still have the thirteenth Amendment &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know, we're still combating just the thirteenth amendment alone, let alone all these local laws and policies that just flood our jails and prisons. We just show up. We continue to do the work, and we continue to role model. We continue to, to, you know, I love watching people like you know, Frankie Guzman up in Oakland who's you know, a formerly incarcerated lawyer who's a policy lawyer, you know James Binnall from Long Beach, he's a professor, Dr. James Binnall, who-- he's a formerly incarcerated lawyer, he did his LSATs [Law School Admission Test] in prison, and now he's a professor and he does a lot of policy work. And it's like folks like that ; they're inspiring. You know what I mean? They're inspiring. It's like, you know, we-- again, they show up. I show up, they're motivation for me. And I can just rattle off a bunch of names of people who are formerly incarcerated who're serious allies for this population. And they want to, they want to do, they wanna do great work. Or they do great work. And it's just like that, that encourages me to continue doing the best work I can. Visintainer: Yeah. It sounds like tenacity then is a really big ingredient to success? Leyva: Yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some other characteristics or expand upon that if you want, but I was just curious, like, what are the characteristics that you feel are really important to build, uh, for folks to build when they're getting out of prison? Leyva: I always tell folks this: I say, "Greatest education that you have is your own lived experience." Right. That we use every time we've had a door shut in our face, every time we've been denied something, every time we've been at the lowest place in our life. Like those, that's the motivator to create change. That right there should be single-handedly the thing we use to create change. So you know, our strength is just who we are. You know, I've seen unfortunate-- some of the-- California Department of Corrections is a hard place to live. Yeah. You know, there's everything from drugs and alcohol and violence and assault and denial of medical, mental health services, medical services, it's hard. And it's like that right there though is probably one of the greatest teachers we have that builds our character up to be like, "I don't wanna take no for an answer. No, I'm here. I'm gonna do something else." Right. And I always tell folks, it gives us a reason to fight, a reason to &lt ; unintelligible&gt ; . And obviously not talking physically, but mentally, emotionally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Politics and, you know, getting involved with like, you know, they should build us up to this place where we feel empowered to create change. We already have it. We've already been to the lowest places that society can send us. Right. And I think that we can only go up from here if we stop colluding with the system that's there. Right. We have to stop colluding with it. Visintainer: Yeah. What, what do you mean by that? Colluding with the system? Leyva: You know, we bump up against it. You know, it's just same thing if you-- when an individual, and I see this happen, and it's disheartening when an individual loses a job or can't get a job and he or she knows that, you know, the informal economy exists, like selling drugs or, you know, hustling for what they need. I respect that. You gotta do what you have to do as a person, as a family person. But we get denied jobs, get denied access to certain resources, and then our only, we can resort back to some drug sales or some criminal activity. We're colluding with them. We're actually saying, "Well you know, you're gonna call me bad or create this level where I can't succeed. I'm gonna do what I have to do." And we go back to colluding with the system that send us to jail or prison. Stick with it. Stay within the long haul. We're always gonna get what we want. But, and the more we collude with the system, the more we actually allow the system to say, "This is why we need laws and policies. This is why crime rates are the way they are. This is--" And so it's like it's like we have to just really try our best to not collude with that system but change that system. And as insiders, we can change the prison system. We can change the laws around gang injunctions, mandatory minimums, three strikes laws, and all these things that are created through laws and policies. Why can't we become the politicians to change that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Formerly incarcerated people can be politicians. You know, we can actually be [on] school boards, city councils, county supervisors, all the way to the state level, all the way to the federal level. We can be politicians and instead of colluding with this criminality as they used the word, you know, let's just bump up against the system and change the system. Make it work for all people. So it's fair and just and equitable. And that's what we push. That's what I push, you know? And, you know, and I'm not alone. There's a lot of beautiful people doing great work out there. Men and women, gay, straight, able, disabled. There's a lot of formerly incarcerated people who are doing this work that, you know, we just, yeah. We just put our best foot forward and keep walking. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: I was curious if there was any particular like majors or disciplines that students that you mentor through either Transitions or Project Rebound here if they tend to gravitate towards any specific majors, disciplines in academia? Leyva: Yeah. The biggest one we see across the state, not just here at Cal State San Marcos, across the state, is usually sociology and criminology, right? Because we want to, we come from that. We know that so well and we do that. But also like human services, like counselors, drug and alcohol treatment counselors MSWs [Master's of Social Work], because we want to, we also wanna help, right? We're very empathetic. Some of the majors they don't gravitate to, which I'm actually excited about at Cal State San Marcos, it's usually like STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] fields. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: We do have four students here at Cal State San Marcos that are in STEM, which is probably the most, because we don't gravitate to it. We gravitate towards how can we create change. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So sociology, criminology, justice studies, MSW, counseling. Those are the main fields. You know, some psychology 'cause you do-- we're helpers. We want formerly incarcerated folks want to help out another individual. My goal is to get people into political science and other fields to be like, "Let's go to Washington." You know what I mean? Let's get in those halls. Yeah. And you can do that with sociology and stuff. But those are the main, those are the big disciplines or the big majors that people go into. And that was mine, bachelor's degree in psychology. My master's degree in sociology. And my doctorate will be in education. And that's all because I want to create, understand these systems so well that I could create the change within 'em, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And that's formerly incarcerated folks. I got a group of twenty-two formerly incarcerated students at MiraCosta right now. And all of 'em say same thing. I want to help people. So I wanna do sociology. I wanna become a counselor, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And I'm like, "Where's my politicians at though?" You know what I mean? Where's my &lt ; laughs&gt ; ? Where's my--'cause you know, there's also, they understand that, you know, some of 'em say they want to be nurses, but there's no access to nursing if you're formally incarcerated. There's a lot of fields that uh-- actually not a whole lot. Nursing is one. Education is another. 'Cause a lot of times if you're formally incarcerated, you can't go back in the high schools to teach, can't get your credentials if you're formerly incarcerated, which I think should change. I think we would make great teachers, especially of high school students. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there would be real value in, in having people who are formerly incarcerated in classrooms. Leyva: Yeah. And we see that too, because when I was in Santa Barbara, I was working in the high schools teaching social and emotional intelligence and social justice work through a non-profit. And the high schools over there saw my value. Out here, we could take Project Rebound students and other students we work in, you know, continuation high schools and court, juvenile court community schools, and those schools sees the value of formerly incarcerated students coming into their school, doing the mentorship, doing all that stuff. And there is a lot of value in it, you know, and not just, I mean, you know, we gravitate towards drug and alcohol treatment or counseling because we understand those folks really well. We also understand marginal high school students and middle school students, they say, "Let us in here" because we can actually really change the outcome for a lot of the students, especially our Black and Brown students that get targeted in other places other than the schools ; their communities, even their homes. We can actually-- I feel like we can really do a lot of work in that area, but until the policies around hiring formerly incarcerated folks to work in high schools, to work as teachers, to work as nurses, caretakers-- The other thing too is we're doing that work in prison. Nurses in prison exist, but some of the main caretakers-- people doing like CNA [Certified Nursing Assistant] work or LVN [Licensed Practical Nurse] work, they're inmates. They're, I don't really want to use the word inmates anymore. They're incarcerated folks doing that type of work. They're caretaking for elders, they're caretaking for people with terminal illness. They're doing dentistry work. They're being, you know, incarcerated folks are already doing that work. We, they allow us to do it there, but as soon as we step out of the prison, "Oh, you're not allowed to do that work anymore." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and it's like, we can benefit. We have a big benefit to society if you allow us to do that work. Right. Just like incarcerated firefighters, they're out here fighting some of the biggest fires. We can do it, we can do it while we're in prison, but we come out and we can't join a fire station. And the laws, that's the other thing too. That's another part of where laws have changed. Now formerly incarcerated firefighters can get a job doing forestry fighting now. And that's, you know our next step is let us in the firehouses in the cities, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So small policy changes, small changes are happening. Visintainer: And how does employment in prison happen? Leyva: Ah, that's a good question. You know, you go to prison and there's a couple ways. One if you're an incarcerated folk like I was, I had to serve eighty-five percent of my sentence. So a lot of resources for somebody already serving that much time. You kind of get put on the back burner. There's also a population of incarcerated folks that go and do, they have to do fifty percent of the time. So they get sentenced to ten years. They only do five. They have to earn that five years. So they put 'em to work right away. And then also if you're, if you're lucky enough to just be like, I got certain skills. 'Cause they do, they run your resume. "What kind of work have you done? What kind of skills do you have?" And they'll place you if there's jobs available, right? So it all really depends what skills you have, how much time you have. So there's a few defining things that get work. But you know, when you go to prison and you get a job, I was a landscaper in prison and it was a job I landed just because somebody was going home and they made a recommendation saying, "Hey Martin should do this job," right? So they hired me right away and it was-- The pay scale. I think the pay scale recently changed. So they're hiring certain people with certain jobs that actually is a decent wage. But I was making thirteen cents an hour in prison. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And because they had restitution, they were taking fifty-five percent of my thirteen cents to pay back restitution. And so at the end of a month, you get paid once a month. maybe able to buy maybe a jar coffee, &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. Jar of coffee, a couple soups and not a whole lot coming from there, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So and there's still a lot of prisons that are still paying their people cause they're still paying folks. Pennies, pennies on the dollar, you know. Visintainer: And is that based out of like some sort of private company using labor? Leyva: Um. Visintainer: Why is there, uh, why is there such a huge disparity between the wages that somebody's being paid when they're incarcerated and somebody that's not incarcerated doing the same work? Leyva: It's just the exploitation of labor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Depending on what you're doing inside prison, what prison, what industry is contracted with the prison because certain, you know, IBM and Levi jeans and, you know, no longer Victoria's Secret, but there's a lot of companies that contract with the prison industry for cheap labor. Right? So it just depends on those contracts. And that's the rise of mass incarceration though, right? You can actually have companies and corporations that on Wall Street, stock market, made in America. You know, you be careful. Chevron and Exxon, they all have a lot of products made in prison. There're so many companies that use prison labor cause it's cheap and they can say that their product is being made in the USA right? And it sucks. Even like the federal prison system for instance, they have a corporation called UNICOR [Federal Prison Industries] and they make all like military flak jackets and military gear. And yes, they're made in the USA but they're made by cheap labor, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And again, given that we're doing the labor in prison, we're getting the skills, much needed skills, but it doesn't equate to jobs as soon as we leave prison. And I think that's where, you know, I'm glad to be working while I'm in prison, keeping our minds busy staying active, which is good. But you know, you've got the private prison industry, it's, you know, you got an entire industry that's on Wall Street. People can actually put money in the stock market and just relies on the exploitation of people. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's kind of a gross system that we have &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I've seen the labor, you know, everything from making our license plates to maybe a lot of this furniture that's actually here was built in prison. Our shoes, our clothing items, everything that we have is actually built in prison. So it's like there's an entire industry that relies on our labor, you know? There's another thing: a lot of people don't really understand that, you know? They think that jobs went overseas. Yes. Jobs went over overseas for sure, but jobs also went into the prison system. Jobs that could have been for a lot of people. So we can't blame fully overseas. We blame our prison system and the allowance of written contracts to have this labor be done there. You know? And a lot of people are just, they don't-- They're just not well informed about what's really going on. Right. And so yeah. One, I'm glad that was working 'cause I would drive myself nuts if I wasn't. But it's also like, you know, you're completely exploiting, you know, my labor. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. When you were a landscaper, excuse me. So you were landscaping like outside of the prison? Leyva: No, it was on the inside. It was on the inside, Yeah. And, you know, it was sure around some of the offices, never was allowed off the grounds in the prison system. But the aesthetics of the prison was important for the face. Right. It has to look good on the outside. The inside was really quite run down, but the outside, the grass was cut nicely. The hedges were trimmed, the flowers were growing on the outside. And that's what you're doing. And trust me, I really enjoyed it 'cause I like being in the sun. I love gardening. I love plants. I love the work. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But, you know, yeah, it was-- I was happy to do the work. I wasn't, you know, especially then I was like, "Oh, I'm cool with this job. I like these thirteen cents an hour," because I was misinformed. I was uneducated. Soon as I came home, and I knew that there was like some exploitation happening, [unclear] understand it, you know, on the outside I'd be getting paid ten dollars an hour, fifteen dollars an hour, whatever I was doing on the outside. And in here it sucks to get thirteen cents an hour or whatever. But now that I'm in academe, I'm educated, I understand these, how the system allows for this to happen with the thirteenth amendment and all these laws and policies and how I really honestly feel like even in education, how I was targeted as a Brown male, it all makes sense to me when I see the rise of the prison system, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: At one point, crime rate, crime rates are kind of going up right now, but for the longest time, crime rates were dropping. Were on a steady decline, but our prison system kept growing. And it took education for me to really understand what is happening with laws and policy, what is happening with contracts in the prison system, what is happening with our politicians who are, you know, law and order issue. You know, "We need to get crime under control!" I'm like, crime rates are dropping though. Why is our prison population 2.3 million people in the United States if crime rates are dropping now, Covid and everything else. Yeah. Crime rates are, are rising, but they're not at a dangerous level. Right. Where our prison system stays at the same amount of people. You know, we can, I love research &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I love research, right? Visintainer: Yeah. And I don't know if this is necessarily a question, but then there's also, you know, I've been seeing like people talking about New York, the crime rates are not actually rising, but there's this narrative that the crime rates in the city are rising. So you have like Adams, the mayor, you know, running on this like tough on crime cop platform and getting elected. And so, I don't know, I don't know what my question is, but I think there's something there too with, with media narratives being-- Leyva: Oh, yeah. I mean that's huge for us. And it's also the time of the year too, right? With, with elections coming up, obviously gonna be this focus on crime and crime in America and all these things. And they're gonna, it's easy for politicians and media to be like, "Well, this crime happened in Chicago, this crime happened in New York, and they could be like all people, right?" It's like, no, that was an incident. Right? And it's gonna happen at this time of the year during elections, midterm elections presidential elections. It's gonna, you're gonna hear about how horrible we are, right? And as soon as the elections stop, you'll go, we'll go focus on something else, Right? Monkey Pox or something else, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's always gonna be something to focus on. But right now, crime rates are the thing because of this media. And that's the interesting thing is how we always, I always call this the sandwich effect, right? When you take media and they'll start the conversation with "murderers this, murderers that," and then they'll have like this middle part of like low-level crimes and criminals, and which is a huge bulk of the percentage of people in prison are crimes that are just like, you know, stealing or property crimes or something that's not dangerous, but it is a crime. So you start off with murderers and murderers and all these violent crimes, which is a very small percentage. And then you talk about this big section of people who are low level crimes and petty criminals, whatever they call 'em. It's a huge percentage of our prison system. And then you end with like rapists and child molesters, people who are misinformed through our media, they hear murderers and then something else, and then they'll end with like murders and rapists, and that's where they lump everybody up. But our major prison population is really people that are like systematically inundated with inequality, lack of access to jobs, lack of access to resources like medical, and they commit crimes that are like informal economies. They're like, you know, petty thief or selling drugs or, you know, something-- that's the bulk of our prison system. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But media more entrepreneurship says murderers, killers and violent crime, and then they end with murder or rapists and child molesters. And that's a very small percentage of our prison population. You know? And but when you, when you start with that and end with this? We're all bad people. Right. And it's not-- Yeah, I'm so critical about media &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: 'Cause they, they strategically figured out how to get the vote. You know? And I'm not talking about, I'm not voting for one. It's like, you know, liberal Democrats are one way and conservative Republicans are another. And I kind of feel like, no, there's a lot of in between that we're ignoring you know? There's a lot of great politicians or people who are just silenced by these two big conglomerates. Right. And they're supported by these big media corporations. And they're all-- I would say they're all in it together. Let's just be very critical about them. That's my job as a citizen, as an educator, is let's just be critical about our government, the systems that run our government, the corporations that run our government. Because if it isn't about the prison system, it's also about lack of education for people. It's also about lack of medical care. It's a lack of good livable wages. You know what I mean? There's so much more if we just remove the prison system, there's so much more to focus on. We just need to be critical about the entire system we're living in. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I think Covid taught me that because we breathe the same air, we should be talking about the same things. Right? &lt ; laughs&gt ; One person gets sick. We should all think about, we all can get sick too, right? And I think there's an illness with the prison system. It impacts us all. Your tax dollars, my tax dollars. I think there's forty-five percent of people in the United States who have a loved one in prison or who know somebody's been locked up. Some major portion of our population who know somebody's impacted by the prison system. We should all be focusing on it together. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. And we're the largest carcell-. Sorry, I didn't have trouble with this word. Leyva: Carceral. Visintainer: Carceral, Thank you. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; Laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Carceral country on earth, aren't we? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I always say it's a, you know, United States is five percent of the world's population, but twenty-five percent of the world's prison population. It's pretty wild. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and you think, like, you know, China and other countries are bigger than ours, but they, they have less prison system. Right. And it's again, we can get into the exploitation of labor. But-- Visintainer: Yeah. And I do want to talk about systems with you, but could we shift for a little bit and talk a little bit about kind of your journey to where you got and then I want to follow up with systems. I got some kind of more big picture questions for you. So I just wanted to ask, where did you grow up? Leyva: Born and raised in Santa Barbara [California]. I always have to name my neighborhood. The west side of Santa Barbara is my home. I love that place. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Don't want to ever want to move back, but I love that place. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. What do you love about it? Leyva: It's just a great little community. It's beautiful beaches, mountains family still there. A lot of history there. When I go back, just like cruising certain neighborhoods, certain streets. It's just a lot of-- it's just a beautiful place. Visintainer: Yeah. What did in your childhood, what did your community look like? Leyva: It's interesting you ask that question because growing up my community was just like, it's a beautiful community. A lot of good little restaurants, a lot of good neighbors, a lot of good food, a lot of good communities. But you don't know what you don't know, right? But it was a lot of poverty, a lot of crime, a lot of sadness, a lot of hardships. But you don't really see that when you're in the middle of it. Right. You don't really ever, you don't ever really critique it when you're like, this is my life. Right. So it was, there was a lot of that and a lot of-- there's a lot of beautiful community built around this ugly thing, you know what I mean? Like the crime and the police and, you know, the lack of schools. But if you don't know what it is, you just, and that's all you know, and you're accepted, right? Yeah. It is beautiful. My family, my mom, my two sisters, and, you know, cousins and community members-- its good people all around. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. What were some of the gathering places? Leyva: The gathering places in my community growing up? The home is always one. That's the best one. But, you know, our, you know, little parks. And for me, I like this question actually, the gathering places. I don't know why the-- places like Oak Park and Alameda Park, these places are ringing a bell, but also the corners. Right. thinking one in particular. San Andres and Micheltorena Street, like those were the gathering spots. Those are like--Bath and Ortega Street. You just see the little cornerstore friends and family gathered there, you know? Yeah. Starting trouble or laughing or yelling at each other or something. But yeah, those are-- I like that question. Visintainer: Yeah. What did Oak Park look like? Leyva: Was Oak Park and Ortega Park were the two main parks and I'm thinking Oak Park was just that a lot of oak trees, a lot of barbecue pits what they would call the kiddie pool. Right. The pool that's only like a foot deep and the playground. And on weekends there was the smell of barbecue and beer &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Visintainer: You know, and Ortega Park is still to this day, one of the most beautiful places there in Santa Barbara because there's same thing, the swimming pool, the playground, the basketball courts, the soccer field, and it's just a block wide. It's not even that big of a park. But there's murals, right? That's like kind of Santa Barbara's own Chicano Park. It's just one little area. Okay. But there's murals on the wall and there's growing up I didn't see the, the crime that was happening, the drug you started, I didn't see that stuff because that's just, you're in the mix, right? You're in the, that's just what happens there. Now I can see it differently through different spectacles, but yeah, it was just the same thing. The smell of barbecue and beer and laughing and music, you know what I mean? Visintainer: Did you have a favorite mural or do you have a favorite mural? Leyva: God, I wish I could show you the picture of it. Yes. There's like this Aztec warrior mural and it was just like this side view. A guy named Manuel Unzueta is the muralist and he's from Santa Barbara. He did a lot of the murals there. But yeah, it was like this Aztec god kind of person. And back then I wasn't really like really into the history yet as I am now, but I remember going back to Ortega Park after being educated after coming home from prison and be like this, like now there's like a connection, not only that's my childhood, but also like academically thinking like I understand the history of where we come from, right? Yeah. So but also I love bright colors and love like images, so yeah. That was, that was one that always stood out. Visintainer: You talked about barbecue a couple times. What kind of barbecue? What did folks like to barbecue? Leyva: Oh, you know, tri-tip and chicken! Santa Barbara, it was Santa Maria nearby. Santa Maria is the birthplace of tri-tip. And so this tri-tip and chicken and corn wrapped in foil, &lt ; laughs&gt ; put on the barbecue pit. And that was, that was the thing. Visintainer: That sounds good. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Who were your childhood role models? Leyva: Um. My childhood role models. Quote unquote the "bad guys." I didn't see 'em as bad guys, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's funny because uh, just had this conversation earlier today, but you know, family members, like my uncles, you know, they were the cool guys who dressed nice, who got the handshakes, who got the respect in the neighborhood. And again, growing up in that, you don't see or think about the negativity that's going on. But they were my role models because they were the ones who like would give me a hug and tell me they loved me or tell me they see me or buy me a coke or an ice cream. Right? And you look up to that, right? Not understanding that the money that they used to buy that stuff for people in the neighborhood, like little kids in the neighborhood also came from drug sales. You don't see that, or nor do you even think about that. You just know that these role models were like the men who were, you know, the men who actually recognized me and saw me. The women who would always be like, "Are you doing your homework?" And, you know, and the women weren't particularly like into a positive lifestyle either, but they would use terms like mijo or mi rey, right? "My little king." And they would always say, you know, go to school and do good. And the kid, the men would be like, "Don't get into trouble." You know what I mean? You know, but if you got in trouble, they'd be like, "Good job." You know what I mean? &lt ; laughter&gt ; So it's like one on one hand, don't get in trouble. Second hand like, alright, good job! You know what I mean? So yeah. They were, they were the ones that actually saw us for who we were. Right. And I love having that experience in life and now being able to see it from a different vantage point. Right. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: They were just doing the best they can with what they had. Right. And that they had a-- you know, my mom and my stepdad and my uncles and all the other men and women in the neighborhood giving me the best they can with their own unresolved trauma. Right. That they did the best they can and that their life was better than what they had when they were kids. And that my life was better than they had it. And that my generation after me, my kids have it better than what I had it. And that's the trajectory of life right, now that I'm able to see it from a vantage point. Absolutely. Love those role models. You know, even though now I'm like, "Ah, you were doing some shady stuff, but I love you for it." You know what I mean? So, Yeah. Visintainer: What did your stepdad and your mom do? Did they do for a living? Leyva: My mom main job was house cleaning, cleaning hotel rooms or cleaning houses or factory work. And my stepdad was a-- he worked in a nursery and a, he worked in a nursery taking care of plants and also a mechanic at the nursery. That was their main industry. You know, I was, I did the first gen talk today and that was interesting. I'm a first-generation college student. College, school wasn't that important to my family. Work was, you know, they valued work over education. You know and working hard too. I think I got my work ethic from my mom. My mom sometimes especially after my stepdad left, would work, guaranteed two jobs and sometimes if she could three jobs, which wasn't the best for my upbringing pertaining to like a mom I could come home to and do homework with. I never grew up with that. Right? So, you know, I left high school in ninth grade, so prior to going to prison and getting my high school diploma in prison, I was, had a ninth-grade education. And so that's what I felt like when I entered these spaces. I'm like, I've a ninth-grade education 'cause I don't remember my high school diploma. But, you know, thinking about my mom, I mean, that was, you know, she was, she's a hard worker. She was a hard worker. She retired early because she worked so hard. Right. Medically retired. But yeah, it was uh-- good work ethic I'll tell that. Show up to work and were just sick or not, show up &lt ; laughs&gt ; . I'm like-- When I'm sick. But she's like, "No, you gotta go to work." I'm like, all right. Going to work sick. But going. Visintainer: Yeah. We come back to tenacity then. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. Can you tell me about the first time that you got in legal trouble? Leyva: Yeah. About fifteen [years old]. I mean, kind of a funny story, but you know, I got in trouble for stealing mopeds. I remember going to court for it and like, "Why are you stealing mopeds?" Or, you know, they didn't ask the question. I just wanted to ride a moped. I didn't to sell it or try to make money. I was just like, I learned how to hot wire a moped. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And as soon as I did that, every time I saw a little Honda Spree, I pop the top, pop the front cover off and pull the wire and it'd just kick right over. And it was just fun. And you know, I got in trouble for having, I think like three Honda Sprees in my backyard, you know, and got popped and got in trouble and, you know, I'm, you know, committing crimes you know. Visintainer: And how did you learn how to hot wire a moped? Leyva: Once again, observational learning. Yeah. I think I think there's this like misunderstanding how people commit crimes and yeah. Certain people will teach you how to do certain things, but for a majority of people in prison, we just learned by observation. You know, I saw this older guy in my neighborhood and I don't even remember. He's like, "I gotta go!" And he went up to this Honda Spree, he did like the little move. And he just took a little knife out of his pocket and popped it and I saw him take the wires out and jumped on it and kick started it. And just hit the handlebars cause the handlebars had the little lock on it. The lock broke real easy. And he just took off. You know, I was like, "I'm gonna try that." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and then I saw a Honda Spree and I know stealing ain't nice. I know it's wrong, but at the time you're like, that was so cool. How did you do that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I saw a Honda Spree downtown one day and I think it took me a little longer &lt ; laughs&gt ; to get it going, but as soon as I got it going, there was a rush. Right. And again, I'm not saying it was okay cause it's not. But that rush felt good. Visintaienr: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I saw him, I'm like, "Ah, where'd you get that little, where'd you get that little Honda?" I'm like, "I took it." He's like, "Oh, let me take it." And he took it from me. Right. So it's like when you steal a bike in the neighborhood, it becomes a neighborhood bike. Everybody's using the same stolen bike. Right. And yeah. It's just a thing to do right? Through observations. Even like I talk about my addiction cause I was addicted to substances and alcohol. And I say it openly with students. I was addicted to heroin for a long time, and it wasn't like somebody taught me how to do it. It wasn't-- You weren't literally taught how to do it. You just see it happening. And when you see it happening, it just becomes, "I know how to do that," because you saw somebody else how to unfortunately use drugs, whether intravenously or not, you just learn it by watching. And I think that's how we learn how to say the things we say, dress how we dress, act like we act, respond, how we respond, whether you know, violence was never taught to me, but it's something I grew up watching. Right. I remember everything from like learning how to express sadness. I remember my stepdad would be like mad, like sad and then he would just like hit the door with his hand. And when you're a little kid and you're watching that or he'd say like, I'm so mad. And then he hit something. If I'm mad too, I gotta hit something. Right. And it's everything with committing crimes to expressing feelings and emotions. It's all observational. Visintainer: Yeah. So, is there an analog to the work you do now? Providing-- Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Providing, modeling for people that are learning? Leyva: Yeah. Emotional intelligence and emotional management. When we feel something, you know, it's me. I've been clean and sober nineteen years and when my mom died four years ago, because I trained my mind that when I feel a big emotion, my mind goes automatically to the reaction, which is the drug use the violence or whatever. Even though my mind thought about it, I've taught myself that there's no visceral reaction. My biological response doesn't have to, I don't have to do these things. I don't have to act out in these ways. And so when I work with individuals around emotional management and understanding that we have no control over our emotions, you're gonna feel something, you're gonna feel it! But how we respond to it, the emotional management part is how we should focus on. Mindfulness, meditation, taking a deep breath, taking a step back. I always say, "Pretend you're the outsider looking in." Take a step back and take a look at what is gonna hap-- what you know is gonna happen or what you feel is gonna happen and respond from that place rather than inside of it. And I'm also big on dismantling patriarchy 'cause I feel like patriarchy is the number one pusher of so many systemic issues of oppression. Even the war in Ukraine is patriarchy. Right. Like patriarchy is very dangerous. And as somebody who is raised in it and colluded with it, they've created it so well-- I want my kids to have a good understanding of who their father is. Not in that violent state, but in this healed or healing individual who can talk about feelings and emotions, who can allow myself to cry without feeling something I couldn't, I could wear a pink shirt and pink socks without somebody saying something to me because I'm very comfortable with who I am. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And I think that working with individuals that becomes my educational piece, is we have to really learn who we are and how we respond. Because how we respond sometimes takes us to the places we are, the jails and the prisons, our addictions, our own self harm, our own self destruction. I love these places, these places. And education has given me this understanding of who society constructs me to be versus who I want to be. And a lot of times we follow the construction because they make it glorious or cool or like, this is all I have. It's not all we have, we're meant to be other people. We're meant to be who we really are. Empathetically, empathetic, caring, understanding, loving, warm, you know. So yeah. I teach a lot of emotional intelligence to our students. 'Cause I think we need to be there for our families and our communities. And we can't do that if we're angry or mad or not-- being angry or mad is okay. But how we respond to it is different. Right. We shouldn't have to respond in negative ways, you know? And so far so good. I've been doing this work for a long time. I see a lot of change. So, you know. Visintainer: That is beautiful statement. Thank you. Um, I don't know, I think a lot about, you know, growing up in patriarchy and masculinity and how harmful, like, I didn't even know how harmful it was, you know? Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: And yeah, I don't know. I'm glad you're doing the work at dismantling it, I guess is all I have to say about it. Leyva: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. No, it's an uphill battle sometimes, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But I always say, you know what, in football they always say it's a ten-yard fight. Just go ten yards and start again. Go ten yards, start again. And but I feel it's an obligation too, it's an obligation. And I want to, if there's one way to shut down the prison system is really help people stop going. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know. That's the goal. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you had three mopeds in your backyard. So how did you, how did you get caught? Leyva: Just being reckless, right. Driving without, you know, back then you didn't need a helmet. But you know, driving through my neighborhood and just crossing stop signs and cops, you know, or like, I remember one time I was driving. And if you remember the Honda Sprees, they had like this little section where you put your little feet right? And I was driving and had one guy standing right in front of me. So I was leaning to the side to look where I was going. And then I had another friend of mine sitting behind me. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So, three people on a small Honda Spree, cop saw us and said, pull 'em over. Right. And as soon as I stopped, my two friends just took off. And I'm like, "Well, here I am." Right. And so obviously the cop could see the wires on hanging on the side and, you know, it's so funny to think back at the little things I used to do and be like, how did I think I can get away with this stuff? You know? And that's how you got caught. Just being reckless and I guess funny at the same time. But, you know, the, the consequence isn't something to laugh at, right. &lt ; Laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know. So-- Visintainer: Did you go to juvenile detention? Leyva: Went to juvenile detention. Juvenile court. Mom was always working. So my sister, remember my sister going to court with me, they were both older than me. Back then it really was a slap on the wrist, a little juvenile detention you know, a little probation check-in here and there. You know, the more I got in trouble... I dunno life moved really fast 'cause actually, you know, I'm eighteen and going in and out the county jail again for, you know, driving cars without licenses for DUIs [Driving Under the Influence], for stolen-- possession of stolen property. Not like, and not saying that DUIs is not a big deal, it's a huge deal But you know, nothing really big or major. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Levya: Right. No violence. And sure there was violence happening, it just never got caught doing it. Right? And I always tell folks like, I've been really lucky not to go away for the crimes that I have committed. Not to say I should have gotten away with it, but I did. And it's like, also it's another fuel that adds, it's more fuel to be like, "I need to do this work because I know that there's a lot of people doing things they wish they weren't doing and they're just not getting caught for it." It's like, let's give them another avenue to go down. You know? So but I think my life led to the point where, you know, I got in trouble for selling guns or having, you know, illegal guns and, you know, this stuff was again, all just part of a lifestyle that I was living that, we don't critique it. We're just in the middle of it. All the way to my last, my last prison term which was a robbery, you know, walked into a place and demanded some money, not even demanded it. Just say, "Hey, I need some money." I knew, I actually knew I would get caught on my last crime. I knew I would get caught. I didn't run, didn't try to pretend it wouldn't happen. Committed a robbery in 2004 and knew I would get in trouble. And I think it was my, I think it was my cry for help because I was so embedded within my addiction and-- no, I felt like I didn't have another way out. I didn't know how to ask for help. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And so when I think about my crimes as a juvenile, just the trajectory of how just, you know, petty crimes to maybe not so petty crimes, but gun sales to more violations of probation to led to, you know, a robbery that wasn't an armed property, I didn't have a knife or gun. But still it was a pretty significant robbery. I think that that time going to prison was my cry for help. You know, I just didn't want to do drugs and alcohol or live this life where I just felt really like in a sense like I wanted to die. Right. I talk to a lot of folks who were formerly incarcerated who say, you know, "I've reached that point where I didn't know what else to do. I'd rather go to prison than have to deal with the struggle out here, the suffering that happens out here." And I think our prison is full of individuals who feel like they had no other option. You know, because a lot of times when we grow up in this very patriarchal environment, especially for men to say, "I'm sad, I need help. I wanna change, but I don't know how," because that's a sign of weakness to say like, "I feel emotional." And for other men or even women to say, oh, they use these negative connotations. Like stop being-- you know, they relate it to words that are used for women and they just, we don't wanna feel that. So what do we do? Go out, commit a crime, go to prison. And I know I've had conversations with other men in prison and be like, "I just, I'd rather be here than out there." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I know men who've gone-- who are in prison and they, their date, their release date's coming up and they automatically like go after another inmate or they go after a guard and they commit another crime so they can stay longer. I never understood that when I was in prison and then I come home and I start doing this work and I'm like this place is harsh on us. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and there was even a time when I first left prison where I felt like [unclear] I can't get a job. I keep losing this job. You know, I'm sleeping on my sister's couch. You know, my daughter wants to hang out but I don't have money in my pocket. I was like, "Fuck I'd rather be back in prison than have to deal with this stuff." Right. And I, you know, that was me in 2007 and that's the individual I could talk to right now. Who just got out. It's like. It's easier to live in prison than it is there. You know, you got strict rules and boundaries. But we understand that life. And when I committed my crime in 2004 and I committed the robbery, that was a cry for help. And I'll never say that prison saved my life because it didn't. But it gave me an understanding. Finally I was ready to do the work. You know, something happened all of a sudden where I'm like, I get out and I'm gonna try my best to stay out and I'm gonna be humble. And, you know, if I turned away a lot of friends when I came home from prison because as soon as I got out my neighborhood was like, "Hey, you want to hang out? You wanna do some--Let's go partying!" For me to say no to the people that I've never said no to was the hardest thing. Right. And that was me facing patriarchy right on. I had a friend when I came home from prison, literally the day after, I hadn't heard from him the entire time I was a prison. He offered me a thousand dollars and an ounce of, of methamphetamines. Right. This was his way to show love his way. He wasn't trying to get me in trouble. He wasn't trying to set me up. But this is my understanding of this is how we take care of each other. And sure. As he's standing in front of me, he's offering me this. "You know, it's just to help you get back on your feet," is what he said to me. And for me to say no in that moment, I knew that I was defying an entire system that was set up for me. 'Cause he looked at me and he is like, "Okay, okay. Like, that's kind of weird." You don't, you don't say no to this in this neighborhood. You don't say no in this culture. You don't say-- you don't deny this offering. But I denied it. And when I denied it, I defied the system that I knew well. Visintainer: And did that, did that sever that relationship? Leyva: It did. I've not talked to the guy ever since. This is fifteen years ago. Visintainer: Do you mourn those relationships that are gone? Leyva: I think there's an emotional and mental and in a way a spiritual transition that needed to happen. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean these just like-- I took care of them. They took care of me. On the outside. They didn't care for me when I was in prison. That's usually what happens. But I knew that once I denied that, if I needed help, he was gonna deny me. Right. Or there needed to be a reckoning of that. And by not hearing from him anymore, I knew that okay, my life. Yeah. You defied this thing and I kind of felt like, okay, my circle all of a sudden got real small. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I just shared today in my talk today, that the more healing one does, the more healing I did, the more work I did on myself, the smaller and smaller my circle gets. Right. Some people just will not accept you anymore unless you're doing what they're doing. As long as they feel like you need them and they need you because misery is old--the saying misery loves company, right? They don't know a lot of people in my community, a lot of people in other areas, they don't know what to do with healed or healing people. Right. And my circle got real, my circle's small to this day, my circle is real small and I think now I prefer it that way. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I feel safer. I feel more included. I seem more like it's easier for me to ask for help. It's easier for me to, to give help. Right. Because a lot of times when you're in the mix of misery, you're carrying the burdens of that too. And I still, I carry a lot of burdens on me 'cause I got people coming home from prison every single day. People coming home from jail every single day. People relapsing and reaching out. I need help. I need a rehab, or I need a detox or I need something and, and to be of service rather than, you know, to be part of the solution rather than being a part of the problem. It's a, it is a heavy load to carry, but it's a lot lighter than carrying the load of my neighborhood when I denied that guy, my homeboy. I can't, I appreciate you, I love you and thank you for this offer, but I can't accept it. That all of a sudden put, you know, Martin-- the rumors started, Martin is oh, he must have snitched or he must have done this or he must have done that. Or you know, all of a sudden there's speculation about who I am versus they can't just accept the fact that I want to change my life. Right. But yeah, it's that's a struggle that a lot of incarcerated people are thinking about when they're coming home. And a lot of formerly incarcerated are faced with when they walk outside the door. And they wanna change. You know? And this is why programs like the in the community college or the university are so important because we give people that visibility and understanding that there's nothing wrong with you. And I don't even wanna say there's something wrong with my community because it's a culture that's there, right? But we don't have to partake in that culture anymore. That I can still be me. I can still be aesthetically who I am. I can still understand that. And I don't have to code switch if I don't want to. But again, I don't have to feed into that, you know? And so yeah. We went from my first crime to this &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But it's all, it's all really interconnected because I think that people are committing crimes because we don't know what else to do with ourselves and we don't know how to ask for help and we don't know how to-- We're being denied resources or jobs and so we commit crimes. And you know, sometimes I remember getting paychecks, you know, I was doing construction for a while and I look at my paycheck and, you know, I just had my first daughter was born. I was like, this isn't enough money to pay for rent and food and all this stuff. So I'd go out and I'd sell little drugs and do a little this and all of a sudden I had a little extra money. Not like I was selling to try to get rich. I was selling to try to keep the lights on or try to, I want to provide. One of my daughters wanted, oh, this little bike is cool, my paycheck ain't enough, but you know, I could sell a little bit of this and then go get that bike. You know what I mean? It makes me feel-- I know it's not the right thing to do. I know now, but at the time it's like the joy of seeing my daughter have something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: The joy of seeing a family around Christmas and Christmas presents, knowing that it's gonna put a smile on their faces. You think I'm really caring about the feeling I had about selling drugs to get that money. Not, you know, and it's you know, could I do it now? Absolutely not. Right. 'Cause I know there's harm being created, but yeah. Visintainer: That must have, that must be like a really difficult part of the journey going home and realizing, I guess is realizing that a home is not exactly the home that you're-- it's not the same place that it was before you went to, I guess. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Or it is but you're not the same. Leyva: You're not the same. No, it's hard because it depends how we define home. Right? My home with my sisters and my mom, she unfortunately passed away four years ago. Home changed when she, when she died, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Home changed when I decided to stop being the identified patient, Right. Because in my home, everybody's worried about Martin. Everybody's worried about, he's in jail, he's on drugs, he's doing this, he's doing that. I was the identified patient. And when I stopped being the identified patient in my family, my family didn't know what to do with me, let alone my community. You know, my friends growing up, like all of a sudden he's different. He's-- you know there's a loss there, right? But also now looking at home, whether it's the family or the community, now that I can see home as a different thing, I can help create a better home for those around me. Right. Access to, oh, let me help you with your job resume so you can get a better job. Let me help you get into college. Whether it's a welding certification or a HVAC certification, a job that'll get you a better pay. Right. And you can have a record and still do this work. Like, understanding this is like now I can actually help mold a new home for people, including my home. 'Cause my neighborhood in Santa Barbara is still my home. I live in San Marcos in a little neighborhood. That's considered my home too because it mirrors the same neighborhood I grew up in. Escondido, Ocean-- certain parts of Ocean[side], like these places around here. The struggle of my neighborhood is the struggle of these neighborhoods. They're not different. So I get to define and create what home is. Right. And I hope that makes sense. 'Cause it to me it's like, I think that's an obligation I feel like I have. And I always tell formerly incarcerated folks that we have an obligation to create the change that we didn't have. Be the mentors we didn't have be the fathers, we didn't have be the uncles and the brothers and everything that we didn't have or the mothers or the sisters. You know what I mean? This is-- gender's important, but we get to define home now. Hopefully better. Right. It's a matter of whether the people around us want to accept it or not. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. You know what I mean? So. Visintainer: The, the last time that you went into prison, did you know when you were in prison last time that you weren't going back? Or was that something that you realized afterwards? Leyva: You wanna hear something pretty wild? I still don't know if I'm going back. Cause I'm not the individual that says I'm never going back to prison. Visintainer: Gotcha. Leyva: I'm not the individual who says I'm never gonna drink or use again. I just know that right now, today, I'm not gonna go back and I'm not gonna drink. I'm not gonna use tomorrow. I can't predict, I can't predict two days from now. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And so I live my life that way. Right. But I knew-- This is a whole conversation itself. I didn't know, I knew when I was in prison, I was like, you know, this is, I know what rules to follow. I know what rules to adhere to. I know what rules to, to press. Right. I knew how to discipline somebody if they crossed the rule or broke a rule. That was a, is a easy life for me. I think what was, I think what happened -- actually, I don't think -- I know what happened is I met a group of men this time in prison that I was listening to. These men who were like talking to me about feelings and emotions. They were talking to me about spirituality and the sweat lodge and praying. They were talking to me about critical pedagogy, like mass incarceration and the war on drugs and gang injunctions. And I was like, "What the hell are you talking about?" These are not words that I know. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Right. And then they would give me books to read and they would like I remember after again-- I remember asking if I can go to college and the prison counselor was like, no, because you have a write up. I don't even know why I was asking for college. I got a high school diploma. I was like, I just wanted to-- I knew other people were doing college on their bunks right. From their cells. And they denied me college right away. But I still got educated in there because I read Pedagogy of the Oppressed for the first time in prison. I read My Life Is a Sun Dance by Leonard Peltier. I read Fanon, Marx and Lennon and I read all these books in prison. I had no idea what they meant. But these men were trying to critically teach me in the belly of the beast, mass incarceration. We build these buildings, we create the labor force and all this stuff. And I was back then, knowing what I know now, right this second, back then I was like, "What the hell are you talking about?" But I was still reading it. I was still listening. I was still paying attention. And when I entered college for the first time, and I'm sitting there and in sociology, they're talking, well, mass incarceration, these laws and policies and all of a sudden I'm thinking about Mitch and Joe and Squeaks these men who already put these language in my head. And I was like, this is why I gotta be critical. Right. And it all made sense. And I believe in the universe. It was the universe put that stuff in front of me. Even if it made no sense, it made sense later. Right. How did we even get here? &lt ; Laughter&gt ; But there, there is, right? I think this is super important because it's like we become, I knew I didn't know that I would never go back to prison. I still don't know. I didn't know that. I all I knew is that when I left prison, I didn't want to go back. How I was gonna do it? I don't know. But I also knew-- one advice my uncle gave me, who also I learned through observation about drug use and violence. My uncle told me a long time ago, I don't even know, I mean thirty years ago, he told me, "When you get to prison," 'cause it was a matter of if it was a matter of when or, "When you get locked up, don't drink, don't use." He always said, "Use that as a moment of clarity." And so I took that to heart. So every time I've been incarcerated at any time, I've never drank or used in prison or jail. And I think this last time I spent years not drinking, not using, because it's easy in jail, in prison to use. And I think it just had this moment of clarity where I was like, "I don't want this." And I had this guy, Mitch Bodner, who was one of my elders in prison. And he passed away this past year, last year. Early on in my sentence, he's like-- he's like, you remember pointing this finger at me and saying, "You don't belong here. There's something about you. You don't belong here." And I got offended. I was like, "What do you mean? I mean I'm here. I got the same tattoo you got!" Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, "I run with the same group you run, what do you mean I don't belong here?" And he mentored me from that day on. And he's just like, when you go home, you help the people. When you, you know, you gotta be there for your kids. You have to be a father. You have to, you know what I mean? He kept plugging me in with all this stuff. And for the beginning I was like, "You're full of shit old man." Right. But he wasn't. He wasn't. He knew what he was talking about. And I am friends with his son who's also formerly incarcerated. And as Mitch passed away, me and -- his name's Creighton Bodner -- I could see, I could see Mitch's wisdoms spewed out on him too. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I understand what Mitch was saying, like, people around you matter and they can, you take care of them and they'll take care of you. You take care of each other, you got an entire community of people who advocate for each other. And I learned that through some random dude I met in prison. So yeah. I didn't know I wanted to, I just knew, All I knew is I didn't wanna go back to prison. And so far I'm fifteen years successful. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Could we talk a little bit more about the mentors that you met? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: So how did you meet them? Leyva: Well, Mitch and Rodeo Joe were part of the same subculture. I don't call 'em gangs anymore. Like, "Oh, you're part of a prison gang." I was like, "I'm part of a prison subculture that kept me safe." And they were both-- Rodeo Joe was an artist, is an artist. And Mitch was part of uh, he's kind of a revolutionary. And Mitch was really that one guy who was like the father-figure. Right. The guy who was like-- mentored me around spirituality especially. And I always say, the sweat lodge and Native spirituality really is my practice today, it saved my life. Really. And he showed me songs and rituals and these things that, you know, I felt like got a father finally. Right? And Rodeo Joe was the, he's always reading and creating art. Reading and art. And he always-- he handed me books and said, "What do you think about this book?" And I-- we'd have conversations about different books. He was like my, both of 'em were like my teacher. But Squeaks on the other hand, I talk about Squeaks quite a bit to folks cause Squeaks was an old Black man. And in prison you don't cross lines ; drugs and cigarettes and even water. Right. Like, things you just don't do. And it's a funny story. And I've written this story before where it was easier for Joe and Mitch to be my mentors 'cause they're part of my subculture. But for somebody like Squeaks who I always say, and I'm writing about this in my dissertation, where out of Squeaks, I've cultivated this idea of a cellblock intellectual. 'Cause I remember sitting in my cell one day, the yard was open, We can exit our building, we can do everything. And I was reading The Four Agreements[: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom]. Ruiz, no not Ruiz, anyway, The Four Agreements, I don't remember the author's name, um, Miguel Ruiz. I was reading The Four Agreements and I remember Squeaks came up to my cell just to the door and he said, he's like, "What are you reading?" And we kinda have a little exchange of eyeball exchange because, you know, he's Black and I'm Native and we just had to have this understanding. It was a really funny story. And I was like, Four Agreements. And he's like, "Oh, that's a good book. It's kind of a shitty read." You know, &lt ; Visintainer laughs&gt ; like he started critically thinking like, "It's a crappy book, son! You know what I mean?" And he's the one who first handed me Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And he said, "You should read this book." And what was it? Maybe he was, no, actually I think he handed me Leonard Peltier's book. And he's like, "Here, you should read this." He starts telling me about the book. "Just to help you understand the place you're in." I took the book and I said, "Cool, thanks." Didn't pay it no mind. And sure enough, as soon as I opened it, I started reading it, I didn't really understand it, but I knew because Leonard Peltier was also Native and in prison, I had a connection to Uncle Leonard, right? And like a week and a half, two weeks later, about a week and a half, I was walking the yard and Squeak comes up to me, said, "What'd you think of that book?" And it was like, I knew that there was something there when I said, "That's pretty good." And he started to started telling me about the book. Like he had it memorized. And from there he became my mentor. And nobody ever questioned the relationship between me and Squeaks and race because they knew it was about education. Wasn't about drugs, it wasn't about food, it wasn't about anything illegal is about books. And nobody ever questioned the mentorship around literature in prison, everything else they would've. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. So there are certain ways for people in prison to interact across the racial lines then-- Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Where that, where that dynamic is not present or not as present. Leyva: Definitely. Definitely. And I think that education is one and you know, you can talk to whoever you want to talk to, but we also know that, you know, Squeaks and I both knew and Squeaks was an old dude already. So he wasn't involved in politics even though he would definitely go head to head against the system. But the prison politics, he wasn't involved. But we also knew that if anything was ever happened amongst races, we would go against each other. We just knew that without a doubt. Right. What's interesting, and it makes it very important thing to note, is that even Miguel Ruiz's book, The Four Agreements, Pedagogy [of] the Oppressed," even like the The Souls of Black [Folk], like all these books that I was reading in prison, they're all considered banned books. They're considered banned books out here. Right. And in the prison system, I can get-- Squeaks and Rodeo Joe, we can all get written up for having these books. And the more writeups we can get a sent to administrative segregation for literature. We can have our visitation privileges removed. Our commissary privileges removed, our job detail removed. Just for literature. And he always said, "Here, read this and don't get this book taken away from you." And I never understood that, "Well, who's gonna take away this book?" Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I had to learn about banned books when I came out here and I realized that every single one of those books I read was on a list that the prison system had. That if you get caught-- Pedagogy of the Oppressed had like a paper bag cover on it Didn't even say Pedagogy of the Oppressed on the outside. I remember this didn't happen to me, but I remember like books that would say, you know, Holy Bible on the outside, but on the inside it's like a whole other book. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Leyva: And they strategically hid literature inside other literature. Danielle Steele and these fucking novels, these love novels that people would always read. A lot of times it was just the covers but the books on the inside were different. Of course people were reading like love books and stuff, but I can never get into that prison book &lt ; laughs&gt ; . But I understood banned books when I came out here and I began to read about banned books and I began to understand like I can, you know, I don't understand why it's just literature. But, you know, the Attica uprising and racial groups banding together is dangerous for the system. Right. They don't want us to band together. 'Cause it would become, I always say it become like a union force. Right. And they don't want that. So they make it difficult and, and make it difficult for us to have these books. They make it punishable to have these books. Squeaks and Joe and Mitch and others knew that this was a thing. I didn't at the time, I just read the books and had conversations. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But that was my mentors and that, you know, I wholeheartedly to this day hold them in high regard. And I remember it was Mitch who said-- he always said this whole thing and people said this old cliche too. He's like, "Make sure you burn your idols. Anybody you idolize be better than them. Never-- anybody comes in your life that is teaching you something. Make sure you learn it better than they have it." And that's the goal too, when I mentor somebody, it's like, "Oh, Martin, I want to be just like you." I'm like, "Why you wanna be like me? Be better. Go higher, go farther, help more people." Do you know what I mean? It's like you always gotta, and that's what Squeaks and Mitch and Joe taught me. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And their mentorship was, is, is, and from my understanding, well one: I know Squeaks and Mitch have passed on and I think Joe is still alive. I'd love to get an interview with Joe. But yeah, that's the goal is just, you know, take their mentorship, their guidance, their love and amplify it. Visintainer: Yeah. That's a good goal. Leyva: And that's what I feel like I'm doing. I think I'm paying them a lot of respect by doing the work I do right now. Visintainer: Thank you. Thank you for talking with me a little bit about your background and how you kind of came to where you're at now. I was curious-- let's see. What led you to North San Diego County? Leyva: Graduate school. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Graduate school. Which I never thought I'd do. Right. I'm the first male in my family to go to college, let alone get an associate's degree or bachelor's degree? I got my bachelor's degree in Santa Barbara at Antioch University. Cost too much money. But Dr. Chris Bickel, who teaches here was teaching at San Luis Obispo at the time, encouraged me to go to graduate school. And it just so happened he just started teaching out here too. The same year. I came out as the same year. I think it was here about a year and a half before I came out here. But North County, San Diego was home because of graduate school and because it's a critical-- Cal State San Marcos was a very critical department of sociology, you know, they teach justice studies rather than criminology. Justice studies for me I knew for a fact when I got my bachelor's degree in psychology, I was like, "I wanna be a MFT or social worker." And then I was like, what brought me here was the idea that they were gonna pick apart rational choice here. Cause I always heard rational choice, like, people choose to drink, people choose to commit crime, people do this. And I was like, Dr. Bickel, Dr. [Xuan] Santos were like, there's systems that make-- that create this playing field that's not fair, just. There's, people don't just choose to wake up like, I'm gonna commit a crime. No. It's like your access to jobs, your access to money, your access to all these things is denied. So then we commit crimes. Right. I remember, and I did this -- really quickly -- I did this in my neighborhood: I did a little experiment in my neighborhood in Santa Barbara. I stood on the corner for like four hours, four or five hours. Hung out on the corner. In about every seven minutes there was a cop that drove by. And then I counted the liquor stores in my neighborhood. Nine block radius, eleven liquor stores. And I remember hearing a judge once tell me when I got in trouble for alcohol. They're like, you know, "You're nothing but an alcoholic." You're, you know I don't know what the judge said, but I was like, okay, you're blaming me for my alcoholism. Who's blaming you for allowing so many liquor store in my neighborhood? "Oh, you're always continuing to getting pulled over by the police. You must be trouble." I said, "Why is there then a cop driving through my neighborhood every seven minutes?" Cause they're looking for something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So you want-- I want to be accountable for the things I do, yes. But this school brought me out here. I came out here to this school because they're gonna help me hold the system accountable for the things they're doing too. The long, long que-- a long answer to that, why I'm out here, right. &lt ; laughter&gt ; Sorry. Visintainer: No, it's all good. And it's a um, I think it's a really good segue into some questions I wanted to ask. So do you believe in prison-- excuse me, prison abolition? Leyva: That's a loaded question for me because I do, I believe that we have, there's a better way. I think there's really good alternatives to incarceration. And the only reason I am not one-hundred percent sold on abolition work is because we live in a society that has not dismantled patriarchy. And so, even like Feminist Thought Theory says we should shut down the prison system, or feminist abolition work, I love it. It's beautiful work. But if we don't teach men and women to dismantle patriarchy, how are we going to open up the doors to prison for men and for women? Cause they feed into it as well. Gender, like, I would say gender's super important. We can't open up a prison or, or dismantle the prison system where people haven't dismantled sexism, racism, classism, heterosexism. Right. These integral parts of patriarchy. Are we ready for that? I think that unfortunately I do, I've met people in prison who I've like, I hope I don't know, I hope you don't get out now, but I think everybody can be rehabilitated. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I don't think we have a prison system that's doing a-- not even a halfway decent job. I wish we didn't have prison systems. I wish we had alternatives to incarceration because people do commit crimes and people commit heinous crimes. And I think that we have to be careful saying we want to abolish a prison system. I don't think we need a prison system at the magnitude that it is. You know, I don't think that there's 2.3 million people in the United States that are bad and dangerous people. I think that there's a small, maybe even less than five percent of that number that maybe should be in a facility of some sort, some rehabilitative community, some therapeutic community -- we don't have to call it a prison -- who need real help. Right. But I don't think we can abolish a prison system unless we dismantle patriarchy first. I don't think we can do it. And I've been there, I've lived inside the prison system. I've lived inside the jails, I lived inside the violence enough to know that if we abolish this system, especially coming from feminist theory, we're not ready for. Right. &lt ; shrugs&gt ; It's also a goal though. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: How do we begin to do the work on patriarchy to set people up so they can have a successful reentry. Right. So I'm not one-hundred percent sold on abolition, even though I do push a lot of abolitionist thought. You know, I mean, we have better, we can have better systems knowing what we know now. But I think we need to really focus on dismantling patriarchy before we open up the doors. Visintainer: Yeah. I think, you know, generally speaking, people have a hard time envisioning a world without a prison system, without police, you know, things like that. Without-- and I guess maybe the question that I want to ask in light of your answer to your last question is without patriarchy as well, people have trouble envisioning a world without that. Even if it's all around us and we don't even necessarily see it all the time, right. So what does a society without patriarchy look like? Leyva: I think it looks like-- I do often think about this. I think a, a society without patriarchy looks a little bit more empathetic and caring, a little bit more understanding, a little bit more -- very much actually -- community-based approaches to everyday things that happen. Arguments and fights and misunderstandings, miscommunications. Right. That if we-- I think patriarchy, there's a response to it. Right. Anger, yelling or violence or these gender roles, right. These gender roles of what women are supposed to do, what men are supposed to do. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans folks, all these folks, like all these people that live within our society. Elderly, young people, disabled, able-bodied, like the intersections of all those things, race, class, gender, ethnicity. That we need a world without patriarchy is an understanding that everybody here should be on the equal level playing field. And when something or somebody commits something against a group, right. This is the importance of restorative justice. This is the importance of conflict resolution, of alternative to violence, like all these great fields. I think that if we started teaching this stuff in literally preschool or pre-k[indergarten], first grade, second grade, third grade, all the way up has a curriculum that's based around feelings and emotions and understanding. I think we'll get to a generation someday who's less violent. Less violent, more empathetic, more caring, more-- sees the world completely different. Right. Maybe this is a big hope and dream of mine. Right. Maybe this is something that's maybe never gonna happen. But I always look at it as, you know, it's always worth the shot because what we have right now ain't working for shit, &lt ; laughs&gt ; you know what I mean? It's not working. And, you know, we gotta understand all the intersections of single parents or, or children growing up without parents or the foster care system or, you know, the world we live in with you know, sexual exploitation of young people and like a world that's a really harsh place. Right. But if we don't start teaching this stuff at a young age of how to really see each other, care about each other, you know, but I think that uh, but I do think, I think we can grow up in a world where there's less patriarchy or more defined like, you know, I'm not saying that being masculine or being-- there's something wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just our response to things doesn't have to be so like, harsh, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We can have disagreements and a conversation after. We can have a disagreement and space apart from each other, then come back and talk about it. Like, we can still have our feelings and emotions, but we teach people how to dismantle their reaction. I think little by little a world without patriarchy is more caring, you know? And it doesn't have to be loving. Nobody has to love each other. Right. But we have to care about each other. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We're in it together. Covid taught us that. &lt ; laughs&gt ; We're in it together. Right. So yeah. Visintainer: What's your future plans for Project Rebound? Or where would you like to see it head? Leyva: I think my future plan is the same future plan as a lot of the coordinators and directors across the state. But just to see it in every CSU. To see every incarcerated person have the access to associates degrees when they come home, they can, if they want, can come to a CSU and be successful and grow as an individual. I also would love to see Project Rebound here and other places. Cause we, every time we do somebody does something at their Project Rebound, we share the information. Right. I'd like to see it become a hub for not just students, but community members come get their records expunged, come and find jobs or resources, come get food. And what we say in the office is come in and shoot the shit. Let's come in and talk. Some people gotta get stuff off their chest and it's a hub where we just see each other and care about each other. Right. And right now, that's what we kind of have down there. We're just kind of building on it. It's a very small community. We want more community members that are students, but we want a bigger community of people around the university to say like, Project Rebound is supporting and helping us and that we're getting the help we need. Right. I think I see the, the work in the future for Project Rebound that it's just a place to come in and grow. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Student or not, you know what I mean? And you know, and we get, I get this idea from students who are not formally incarcerated, but are system impacted. When a student comes into my office, or, and I'm not gonna say my office comes into the office and they say, "Oh, my dad's incarcerated and I don't know what to do." And we're sitting there, me or Lawrence or one of our formerly incarcerated students to sit there to talk to the student about what they're feeling, what they're going through. I see that as a community space to heal. Right. So that's where I see the future. It's just a place to grow and heal and be seen and cared for. Visintainer: Yeah. As you know, I spend some time working around the corner from you there and from my perspective you have a community there. I see a lot of engagement. I see a lot of students talking with you and it's pretty cool. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. It is really nice. Especially post-- pre-Covid. I mean, I was trying to, I was trying to sit there in little desks and do work and there'd be like ten people in that small space and I'm like, I gotta put some earphones on or something cause &lt ; laughs&gt ; yeah. I'm trying to get work done here. Right. It is, there is a community built there and it's nice to see it come back pretty quickly now that we're back on campus and yeah, I'm grateful for that space. Visintainer: Yeah. Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't? Leyva: No. No. I think I really have appreciated this interview, this conversation. I wouldn't even call it an interview. It's a, it's a conversation because I think-- I know I'm super grateful for this opportunity to be in this academic space and this community around people that I love being around. And I mean, as a formerly incarcerated person, again, feel obligated to continue helping people because in a way I'm really helping myself. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, sometimes I feel like I'm overpaid. Like I can go home even though I take a lot of the stress home with me or the emotional labor home with me. But I also know that every day I'm putting my best foot forward and I'm doing the work. And that pays homage to Joe and Mitch and Squeaks and others. 'Cause I still remember the day I walked out of prison, the faces I left behind. Yeah. And this is my obligation to those men there. Not just the men, but all incarcerated people across this globe because incarceration is a global issue. You know, we just have the biggest one in the United States, but it is a global issue. Right. So, but I think question wise, or I think I'm good. Visintainer: All right. Well, I really appreciate your time and the conversation, so thank you very much. Leyva: You're welcome. Thank you. Visintainer: All right. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/archival_objects/22735 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Leyva, Martin. Interview October 27, 2022 Description An account of the resource Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community. Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-19 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Project Rebound Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment MiraCosta College. Transitions Program Palomar College. Transitions program Prison-industrial complex Santa Barbara City College. Transitions Program Transitions (Program) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Martin Leyva Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Martin Leyva https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a9584fdc97e42f64b69b7f158055847a.pdf fc499ddb820fad05b30fef396a378b89 PDF Text Text Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Martin Leyva as part of the California State University San Marcos Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Today is Thursday, October 27th, 2022, and the interview is taking place at the University Library at Cal State San Marcos. Martin, thank you so much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about the work that you do, and I was wondering if you can speak to your roles at Cal State as well as Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges. Martin Leyva: Yeah. so currently I'm the program coordinator for Project Rebound here at Cal State San Marcos. Project Rebound started three years ago as a program that supports formerly incarcerated students. I'm also a lecturer within the Sociology [department] Criminology and Justice Studies [program]. And my work primarily is around formerly incarcerated students. It includes Palomar College's Transitions Program that started in 2016, 2017? 2017, and I worked there, also a professor of sociology there, as well as the support person for Transitions students. And same thing at MiraCosta, [unclear] teaches sociology, lecture and sociology there, as well as work with their Transitions students, so formerly incarcerated students. And the cool thing is now they're Rising Scholars, which is the Chancellor's, California Chancellor's Office support for formerly incarcerated folks within the community college. So that's what I do. Visintainer: What does that support look like from the -- you said the Chancellor's Office? Leyva: Yeah, so well, there's two parts. One, Project Rebound also gets support from the Chancellor's office to have programs in the CSU, provides financial support for formerly incarcerated folks. And that's the same thing at the community college with Rising Scholars Network is financial support and professional development for formerly incarcerated students all supported by the Chancellor's office. And that's all new initiatives that just happened in the last couple years. Rising Scholars just happened this past year, funding to community colleges, which is a big help, a huge help. Visintainer: How did Rising Scholars come to be? Leyva: Rising-- I mean Rising Scholars came to be because they saw the need. They saw like a lot of community colleges starting to build up and amplify their services to incarcerated and formally incarcerated students. I love the work. I started doing this work back in 2007 when I came home from prison. Started community college and you know, it's just, I don't know. It wasn't -- there wasn't a lot of support back in 2007 for formerly incarcerated folks and building that program and other programs that got built around existing programs and what we were doing at Santa Barbara City College, last 15 years is just more and more community colleges throughout the state started doing this work. Project rebound, expanded from San Francisco State on to thirteen other campuses. The UC [University of California] system started creating Underground Scholars that supported you know, Underground Scholars first started in Berkeley, and it had started expanding to the UCs. And I think the state of California just saw like, there was a movement and momentum around laws and policies and procedures that supported -- they Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 1 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 needed to support formerly incarcerated students, because a lot were coming home and a lot were going to college. And it's been nothing but positivity, you know, I mean, the more they realize, the more degrees we get, the less the likelihood of us going back to prison drops significantly. And they started to fund them. So, it's been so beautiful to watch. Visintainer: Yeah. For sure. What you mentioned the that there's financial support and professional development that's provided and what does that look like? Leyva: So, professional development… someone like myself who's been to prison, who's got a record it's really hard, especially in areas like this state, right? To get a job with felonies on your record or having an extensive background. But a lot of these programs, they're actually encouraging for institutions to hire people with lived experience. And so it opens, the professional development opens up the doors to people like myself to be able to come work for -- you know, it's interesting because at one point, how much distrust, and I dunno what the word is, distrust. And just like I was property of the state for a long time. <Affirmative> [Be]cause property of the county from county probation to the state of California being in prison and on parole, you’re property of the state, and then to suddenly go to work for the state, it's kind of an interesting trajectory. But the professional development is they're encouraging institutions to hire formerly incarcerated folks to lead the charge to work with formerly incarcerated students. And I think that, that, I could see myself in admin work now. I could see myself as, you know, someday becoming like a dean of a department or… and that was something I never thought as a formerly incarcerated individual that I'd ever see myself at that level. And I think that that through Project Rebound, I'm able to see myself as, “Wow, I can actually do this.” And that's the part of the professional development, because if I was to leave here, I'm building the skills it takes to continue this work in other academic institutions or nonprofits or, you know what I mean, other places. And I think that there's a lot of skills that's being built working for the university. So-Visintainer: So it's skill building its opening doors with state government also, I assume with private organizations. Leyva: Yeah. I mean, again, the nonprofit sector. A lot of organizations that are taking on issues around incarceration, around formerly incarcerated, around reentry you know, there are big nonprofits too. And you know, this is the professional development that if I was to leave the university, which I don't foresee me leaving the university anytime soon. You know, I got skills to be able to apply for these jobs that I would've never had. Right? And I'd be taking leadership or taking mentorship from some of our leadership here. I'm really understanding what it is to maybe someday lead an organization, right? And yeah, so the nonprofit sector even, I don't know, I don't ever foresee, like me going back to the prison system to work. But if, you know, job came up and it was, you know, proactive in helping people get out of prison, finding resources, I would take a job back into the, you know well not back into, but go back to the prison system to work to make sure that incarcerated folks had an easier time transitioning from prison to society, right? And so, I think those skills are being developed here. There's a lot of sectors that I can see myself working in. Yeah. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 2 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 So you're a lecturer. You have you have a hand in three different colleges, programs with helping formally incarcerated individuals with their college experiences. So you're very busy. Leyva: Yeah. <laughs> Visintainer: What does, what does like a typical day of work look like for you? Leyva: A typical day of work… it depends on the semester, but it is, it's a typical day is, you know, get up, get ready for work, you take care of your household things, show up to university, check in, do your emails, support students, check in on students. Prepare for meetings, prepare agendas for meetings attend a lot of meetings. <Laugh> There's a lot of meetings in the university. And it's in, it's also preparing for class. And I don't prepare for class. You know, that's usually after hours or before work. And then, you know, different schedules, different colleges, different days. You know Monday, Wednesday for instance, I'm at MiraCosta teaching formerly incarcerated folks, sociology intro class. So, you know, the typical lecture here's the information, the grading, the mentoring of students. Tuesday, Thursday, I'm doing the same thing for Palomar College. And then quite honestly, I mean I stay busy, so I go home and I'm prepared a little food, hang out with the dog, and then all of a sudden you're—[be]cause I'm also in a doctoral program right now. So gotta do research, gotta write. It's a very <laugh> now that I say that out loud, it's super busy. But you know, I think that I also see the importance all of it, right? I see the opportunity that has been placed in front of me. And I know that there's a good benefit to it all right? I think it's also… I stay busy as a formerly incarcerated individual. I know a lot of formerly incarcerated individuals are watching me and they see me and they could see them-- They could see their lives changing too. And I think that that's the super important part is that the mentoring that I've gotten, I got to give it away, right? And so that's a typical day is just, you know, Monday through Friday and on weekends, hopefully get a little downtime and hang out a little bit, if not, you know, I'm sitting there researching, writing, and grading and— Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Wouldn't trade my life for anything. Cause I think I've seen the worst of worst and I don't wanna see that anymore. And I think I can do something about that if I continue to do what I do. So… Visintainer: So you mentioned that you-- part of your day is supporting students and checking in with students. And I imagine, and I'm making a bit of an assumption here, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that there's a significant amount of emotional labor that goes into your work. What, I guess my question is what is the emotional labor that goes into assisting students with their transition to college life? Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 3 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: Yeah, there's a lot of emotional labor attached to it. [Be]cause it's not just formally incarcerated students here, when I teach here at the university, I'm teaching sociology to undergraduate students from all walks of life. And but when it comes to students in general, I think a lot of students still, especially at the community college, working with them, they struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. A lot of less, you know, they don't have the best self-esteem or self-value. A lot of 'em can't believe that they can actually make it. And you know, you want to support them as much as you can, you know, encourage them. Words of encouragement, sharing, you know, even the tutoring part, which is second nature to me: this is how you write a paper. This is what you should think about with research. Like, that's, that's like second nature to me now. But I also remember what it was like to be a student coming outta prison and going through education, which I'm still doing now. I've built so many skills and other skills I give away. But there's a lot of times where I think the emotional, real emotional labor comes is when students don't succeed. Right. We still have a lot of students that deal with the barriers, you know the getting a job, the family unification, addiction, alcoholism, even students that still deal with, you know, family trauma, neighborhood trauma, like gangs and stuff, right? And you, a lot of times I tell students, you, especially coming from that background, I tell students, you gotta be careful having one foot in your trauma and one foot in education, cause one of them's gonna win. And we try our best to have education heal that trauma, but a lot of times we see students go back to the old ways and that, you know, it's a little emotional taxing. I just shared in a discussion I had today that you can't change the person who's not ready to change, but what you can do is just plant the seeds that help them change, you know, and keep an open door. But there is, I find myself, this is actually a really good question cause I find myself at night when I lay down, my brain will tell me what to do next because I'll think about that student that still struggles and that's emotional. Like I carry that with me. And I think it's also a motivator to be like, “Okay, here's what I can do different. Here's who I can reach out to.” This work is not just me. It is a huge community around. And there's a lot of emotional labor with that, you know, And again, just students that you know, I had mentors believe in me before I believed in myself. And there's still areas where I don't believe in myself where I still have people believing in me. And that's the thing, like I always tell students, Don't worry, you might not believe in yourself now, but I believe in you. You can do this. You might be looking through distorted eyes, but I could see the clear picture, you know, and it's a matter of them just trusting you. We also deal with the population that doesn't trust very well. You know what I mean? And so that can be emotionally taxing. It can be. And but again, we show up, we role model. And eventually the more you show up, the more they show up because they, you know, you're role modeling what you want them to do. And that's, that's super important. So. Visintainer: Is, is that the key to building trust or are there other things that you do to build that relationship? I assume there's like a feeling out stage that happens and then there's a trust that's built. I guess my question is how do you go about building trust with somebody? Leyva: I think that the students that gravitate towards me also recognize that there's a big similarity. Whether it's like, cause I, I'm very open with students, [I’m] a student in recovery, been clean and sober nineteen years. I'm a student whose, or an individual who has addressed a lot of healing within myself. And I think that when students know where I've come from and know where I'm at, they still see me for where I come from. So I'm an insider for a lot of them, right? And so there's already trust there. But again, it's also to like and I'll say it straight up, “You might not trust me now, but eventually you will.” And it gets to Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 4 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 that point where they're like, you know, you're reliable. You know, they're gonna call, they're gonna email. They don't really email. They'll call or text. And I answer and whatever they need, I say, Here, look, call this person. Go here, go that or come see me. I'll go, I'll meet you. Come to the office, or whatever. And students we rely on each other and they also know we're like-minded. You know I'll never tell a student to do something that I haven't done or not doing. I'll never ask a student to step outta their comfort zone without support. Right. And so they know that they're always gonna be supported and and cared for. They're always gonna be seen. And so, yeah, I think it, it takes a little bit to build trust, but it happens. It happens. And this is also, goes back to that question about professional development, is it's important to bring people into these institutions who actually have the lived experience of the people coming in. Visintainer: Hm-hmm. Leyva: Because we're here trying our best to succeed. And we're showing these folks that are just like us, just at a different level, that they too can be here. And they know that. It's like, there's like this insider trust, this insider knowledge, this insider acceptance that, you know I see them, they see me, and we have each other. We're gonna hold each other accountable. I will hold, I will hold students accountable. Right? And this isn't just formally incarcerated students, which is most of my workers around this has to do with students who are in the classroom here at Cal State San Marcos, who are also like Chicano or Chicana. They come from this marginal background. Maybe they're first generation, actually most of them are first generation. And then they see a professor. Cause I don't look like a typical professor, but they recognize my aesthetics, their language, my dress style. They recognize that as very similar to them. And so then you become those mentors for those students. Right. You know, when they come see you at the office, it's like, “Oh yeah, check out this resource, check out that resource.” And nobody's really sharing with them that knowledge and introducing them to folks on campus that can help support their success. Right. Or their, their trajectory towards success. And the trust gets built and once it's built, it's there, right. And it's also always being there. And I, and I laugh because it's like, I've had students share with me, like, “Every time I call you answer.” I'm like, “Trust me, that's my job. Because I believe in you.” Right. And I want to be there for you. And cause a lot of times we deal with students who understand what disappointment and abandonment looks like. And if they come here and they get the same treatment, they're not really gonna be successful. Or, you know, the retention rates for them are gonna drop and we're not gonna hold onto them. And so I think it's important to have someone like me, someone like Dr. Xuan Santos, some of the other professors on this campus who mirror, you know, Rafael Hernandez. A lot of professors on this campus who come from the backgrounds of our students and students can see themselves in our places. And that's what we want. So it all starts with trust. We have to, they have to build trust first. And we just go from there, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Can you talk about a great success that you had at work with either a student or a policy change? I'm just interested, like, what does a really great day at work look like and feel like? Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 5 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 What's a really great day at work look like? Actually quite a few and, you know, I'll share one. So I had a student, it was my first year actually teaching here. It was I felt like I'd been teaching a really long time, but after I got my master's degree here, and I started, like the following semester, I had a class and a student in this class who was very quiet, very reserved. And he was just kind of like, came out, came up with me after class. He's like, “I've never seen a professor like you.” And then he started to share about him, his upbringing and his family. And right away I gravitated towards like, what this student was sharing and how he can be successful. And it was a little mentor/mentee relationship built. And a great day here is when you get the email says, I decided to go to grad school. I want to apply for this program. Can you help me? And I'm like, yes! And we're, I'm writing a letter for him for grad school. And then he gets, he sends me another letter. I got into grad school. And just that last semester, spring, spring quarter last year, he graduated with a master's degree in social work. Visintainer: Awesome. Leyva: Got a student in my office right now who formally incarcerated. He spent twenty-nine years in prison, came out an older gentleman. I met him when he first came out and he started Palomar to be able to help him. He got two associates degrees, came here, got his bachelor's degree, and he just started his first year of graduate school, right. And it's, I have, there's, so I'm truly-- I feel blessed because I have like, so many little stories. And I say little because they're gonna continue to grow, because these individuals are also gonna guide the next generation of students coming in. That helps. I mean that's success to me. And then just being part of, like, when I first started Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College, to watch that program kind of grow into this big thing that policy changes, where finally, politicians are saying we need to fund programs and start programs and to see programs. Community college goes into schools-- community college goes into jails and prisons to teach associates degrees, and to me, success is like knowing that I played a small part in that. Right. And to be able to be an advocate and a voice for people ending life without the possibly of parole for minors who went to prison and playing a small part in that. Now you ask that question, I'm like, ‘cause I never really think about it. I just do the work. Yeah. I just kinda show up and, and everything about, you know, like, what's, what's success to you? I'm like, you know, just show up to work. But to realize now when you say that, [unclear] had even just a small part of all these beautiful things. And as my mentor, Dr. Chris Bickel, he says, he's like, “Man, the work just began for you.” Right. Yeah, I never really even think about it. Just kinda show up to do work. <laughs> And, yeah, I think that's every day too. You get students show up in the office and they get to share, like, “I got an A on this test, thank you!” And I'm like, “Don’t thank me. I didn't do no-- I didn't do the study and I didn't do, I just gave you a couple encouraging words and you showed up, you took the test. It's not me, it's you, right?” And I think that you know, I get at least one piece of good news every day and that's a good thing. So, yeah. Never even thought about that, man. Thanks. Visintainer: <Laughs> Well, you're welcome. Thank you for sharing. Let's see. So, you started the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. Can you talk a little bit about how the Transitions Program there came to be? Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 6 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Yeah, so I got released from prison in 2007. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew was I didn't wanna back to prison. Education was not really on my mind. Change was though, right? Just not going back to jail. Not going back to prison. Not using drugs, not using alcohol, not going back to the neighborhood. I knew that that was what I didn't want. But I lost… because of my record, I lost three jobs in three months. And my niece just had this idea, “Why don't you go to school?” And I went to the, I went to Santa Barbara City College. I was scared. It was the first time I'd really ever felt like I was… you know I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. I didn't feel like I belonged there. I didn't fit in [unclear] scared. My niece was the one who really practically held my hand in my first semester. And I always tell folks: that transition started out of an act of fear because I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. And every time I went to the parole office, I was telling another formerly incarcerated individual. Back then, we were still using the word convict, right. And I'd be like, “Hey, you should come up and check out school.” Selfishly, I wanted him there. Right. And I also saw two individuals I'd always see at the parole office. I saw 'em on campus. And I did really quickly, I recognized I didn't have the ability to ask for help. I didn't have the ability to raise my hand. I read and I was engaged in here, but I wasn't vocal about what I was learning. And these two individuals were Black. They're Black men. And in prison we walk around really fine racial lines. Right. These unwritten rules around race. And so, I at the time I was kind of scared to approach them because of race, but I was still institutionalized. And then really quickly, I said, I want to be here and I know they want to be here. And so I approached them, Tyrone and Malik and I introduced myself to them. We just got to talking about school, classes. Then they also felt the exact same things I was feeling. And next thing you know, we started a little support group. Me, Malik, Tyrone, and then there was a woman that joined and another person that joined another person-- and then we just started this transitions support group that turned into the school EOPS Director at the time, Marsha Wright, I said, “Hey, we need a little spot to meet.” And she's like, “Yeah, I'm gonna get you a room so you can continue the support group.” And that happened so quickly. The summer right after that, we had our very first cohort model of education for formerly incarcerated individuals. And I think the first cohort we had like fourteen formerly incarcerated students. Second, we had like twenty-two, then we had twenty-five, and we had twenty-five every year after that up until Covid, because Covid shut down a lot of the programs. But, you know, the Transitions Program was born and you know, addressing access to college, recruiting resources, you know learning disabilities, like a lot of the departments got involved because they saw a big need. And there this was the small community of Santa Barbara. We have students coming from Ventura, from San Louis Obispo to do the program. And so I think that that sparked the conversation. You know, campuses should address that. It's been such a pleasure and honor to be a part of that. Cause when I moved out here in 2016 to come to school, Cal State San Marcos, that first year we took it to MiraCosta and MiraCosta ran with it for one year. Second year I was here. Palomar. We had approached Palomar. Palomar started their Transition Program, which still both, now both campuses have one. And they're doing such amazing work. Right. And yeah, like I said, you know, it sparked a good movement. It's an honor to be fifteen years removed. I would say I'm fifteen years removed from prison, but I'm fifteen years born in education. Right. And that feels good to be part of that work. Visintainer: Yeah. I have so many follow up questions from what you just said. I'm gonna try and frame 'em in kind of a logical order. Okay. So you, you mentioned that you tried three jobs after getting out of prison. And did you say you were let go from 'em? Yeah. what were the jobs? Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 7 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 My first job was doing construction. My neighbor, I paroled back to my sister's house and the neighbor was, you know, essentially a good guy. His name's Joe. He was doing construction at the time. He said, I can get you a job at this construction company. And I was excited to work. Two things happened with that job. One, it was a big commercial industrial construction company they built, wasn't like building houses. We were building huge buildings. They ran a background check and it took about, you know, twenty days to then to come back. And they came back and this says, it's a lot of liability here. You just got out of prison and so we can't get you the job. The other thing was my parole officer. I was in Santa Barbara County and literally the job site was about three miles outside Ventura County. So, because I left Santa Barbara County into Ventura County, he's like, “You can't have that job.” I'm like, “It's a job though, right?” And so not only did the construction company not continue employing me because there was a lot of liability, parole officer said, “You can't leave the county.” Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: So I lost that job. So then my sister introduced me to temporary work. Right. A temp agency. And I got a job with, great job with, Powell-Peralta working, making skateboards. I thought that was a great job— Visintainer: Cool! Leyva: Loved the skate culture. Right. And it was really cool designs and was learning how to make boards and the temp agency, I was working there. I, you know and after thirty days of working there they said, “Oh, we want to hire you're a good worker. You show up, you do your job. And you're—" They really liked me. And, to go from temp agency to permanent employment, they ran a background check and they also said, “You know, you're just too fresh out. You just gotten out a couple months,” or not even a month maybe a month and a week, month and two weeks or two months, whatever. So then they didn't hire me on. And then I went to go work for janitorial, same temp agency. I was doing janitorial, cleaning buildings at night, nobody in sight, just me and you know, cleaning supplies. And after the same thing, after thirty days, they said, “We really like your work. You're good. Let's hire you on.” And then background check. And so it was, it deflated me pretty quick. Like, it was just exhausting. I just, I just wanted to do well. I wanted to do good and I wanted to make some money for my kids and get back on track, whatever that meant. And that's why when my niece introduced me to school, should I go to school and then I think when I attended, started Santa Barbara City College, my parole officer said, “Well, I'm glad you're in school, but that's not a job.” Right. FAFSA’s not money. And I was like, It's kind of money <laughs>, right? But he's like, “No, you need a job.” And then fairly quickly, I remember talking to my EOP counselor, EOPS counselor and I said, “I need a job.” And she's just like, “Oh, this this thing called federal work study. You should try to get a job on campus.” And I was like, “What's that?” So I explored it. Next thing you know, I'm working for English as a Second Language Department and I was doing administrative assistant work. And I'm like, “How am I do--? I don't even know what I'm doing!” But they gave me an opportunity. City College said, you know, you don't have certain crimes, so we're just gonna hire you. And I was like <surprised gesture> “Hmm.” You know, next thing I know I'm working Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 8 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 in, and I've been working in education since. An interesting thing is, same thing that happened to me back in 2007, trying to get a job is the same thing happening to people now. And this is why, again, this work is so important. We address those issues. We hire students on campuses. So. Visintainer: And you said the construction company said that the insurance liability was too much. And so when formerly incarcerated individuals are coming back and they're getting jobs and they're going through these background checks, I assume that's just a huge barrier. And things like insurance liability come up. How do you address that with students that you're mentoring and how do folks get over that barrier? Leyva: Yeah. Well now, I mean, this is the other thing about doing this work for so long: policy change has happened. Now we have the Fair Chance Act where you give me a job application and it says, “Have you been convicted of a felony?” You don't actually-- you don't have to mark anything down anymore. This allows for your application, at least to maybe go through the second process of an interview. They cannot run a background check on you until they hire you. So I always tell students, “You know what?” ‘Cause some students just don't know, some formerly incarcerated folks just don't know. They see that box and they just don't even-- why is that box still on the application? I don't know. It should be removed from all applications, especially in the state of California. But I tell them, “If you see that box, don't even mark it. Put in all your skills, send me your resume, let's hook up your resume.” Even if somebody doesn't have any real work experience for, you know maybe there's a five-year gap because they've been in prison, there's still skills being built, whether you worked in laundry, worked in the kitchen, did landscaping, did some type of machine shop, there's skills that are being built and we can put that in your resume. And so working with students, and the hard part is working with formerly incarcerated folks, we don't come in contact with all formerly incarcerated folks. So there's still a large portion, a large population of formerly incarcerated individuals who don't get this mentorship. But the ones that do, you know, let's work on your communication. Let's work on interview skills, let's work on all this stuff so that when they're ready to go for that job, they have a little bit of a leg up. Right. And you know, the Fair Chance Act has really given a lot of formerly incarcerated folks the opportunity to get work. Now, is it a livable wage? Probably not, but it's something, right? It's a starting point. But it's still an uphill battle. Cause we have a student currently in Project Rebound right now who is just having a hard time trying to find a job with a decent wage and attend school full time. And thinking about, you know, doing something different like truck driving school until you can save some money. There's still a lot of barriers. And as much mentorship and guidance we can give, there's still certain jobs that say, “Yeah, we wanna hire 'em.” And then as soon as they find that there is a criminal background, you know, just like pull the blanket out or pull the carpet out from underneath you and you feel like you're stage one again. Right. And so it's hard. That's the other-- that's the emotional labor that we were talking about earlier. It's like, you know, I feel like I've reached a place in my career where I feel okay, but it's hard to be here knowing that there's so many other folks that still don't feel that yet. And it's both emotionally taxing, but also I feel grateful too because it's like, I understand that I've been in those shoes before and it's like, just keep showing up for them and they'll be okay. And telling them, show for yourself. You know, show for yourself. So, Yeah. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 9 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Yeah. I have a question, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly. I'm gonna let it gestate as we continue talking. Cause I'm not entirely sure what I want to ask, if that makes sense. There's something there if that makes sense. Leyva: Yeah. It makes total sense to me. <laughs> Visintainer: Okay. So let's see. So let's circle back then to the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. And we've talked a little bit about how that came to be. That was-- it was really interesting. And I guess something that you mentioned there was a cohort that started and it was a smaller cohort, and then it grew as the years go on. And I was curious about how that communication starts. When before you have a program and you know that there are formerly incarcerated students on your campus, how do you get the word out about a program to help them? Leyva: It was really grassroots. So I'll start from the very-- like me and Tyrone, Malik, Christina, the number of folks in the very beginning, we would sit at this little bench on campus, right? And we would meet each other there in the morning. We'd talk about school, talk about tutoring, talk about resources. We’d support each other. But when you see a group of formerly incarcerated people or people that <airquote gesture> look formally incarcerated, the cops are also looking, right? You can see campus security, like, you know, what’s this group of people doing here? Right? And I've been asked too, when the early days by campus security or can I help you? Are you a student here? I'm like, Yeah, I'm a student here. And they're like, “Can I see your ID?” And I'm like, at the time I'm like, I'm on parole. I'm like, “Yes, you can see my ID.” Technically they had no right to do that right. I didn't know that. So I knew that there was like this surveillance aspect that was happening to us. And so that's why I approached the school, not to start a program, but to, “Hey, can you give us a safe place to meet?” Here's this group of people. We're all formerly incarcerated, We're all here. And it was like, yeah. So that's, that's that entry to the, to the dialogue as we're here and we need a safe place. And I said, you know, the campus security is always like looking at us or questioning one of us when we're coming into the college. And so the people that I was talking to were like, “Oh, that's not right. They shouldn't do that.” Right. And they help us help ourselves by saying, If they ask you that, you don't have to answer any questions. You can actually call me or whatever. Right. They were really supportive. But then you realize when you start asking more and more formally incarcerated people to come to school, that something needs to happen. And the good thing is, is that the school, especially EOPS at that time at Santa Barbara City College, still to this day, their goal is to help marginal students their whole, And they saw the need really quickly, and they said, “You think you can get a program started?” And I was like, I actually know I can get a program started, but what is a program? Right? And they asked me like, “What do you think a program would look like?” I said, “We get a whole classroom for formerly incarcerated folks.” I don't even know what you would teach, but we could all learn together and we can support each other and we can build I don't even know if I knew what the definition of cohort was before that. And then I was told, “You think you can get a cohort going?” And I just said, I didn't know what it was. I was like, “Sure. What is it?” You know what I mean? But, just-- they were really supportive. And then next thing you know, they're talking funding, they're talking, you know, “Oh, we'd like to hire you as a peer advisor to run this program and do this stuff.” And I was, I was just like, “Yes.” Because it was a job. It was being around the Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 10 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 people that made me comfortable, which were four other formerly incarcerated folks. I felt good about what I was doing and I was also doing drug and alcohol treatment or going to school for drug and alcohol treatment at the time so everything we were talking about in class was fitting into this model that was being built. Right. And so I had my teachers, my professors in those classes actually telling me about group process and all this other stuff. It just felt like everything was organic at that moment. And that's how the conversation started. And that's you know, I think me and Malik and Tyrone, we just ran with it, you know, and it was yeah. And that's how the conversation happened. And that's also goes back to professional development because I feel like when they start talking about funding and, you know, writing up a budget and all this stuff, I was like, I have no idea what this means. And here I am just like watching these EOPS counselors and these program coordinators talk about this stuff, and I'm watching them do the work, and I'm like, “Oh, I want to learn this.” It's not something-- not a skill I've ever had or been around. Again, I didn't know it would take me to this place, but I knew that there was some skills being built there. Right. And I think I answered your question. <laughs> Visintainer: Yeah. What is what is EOPS? Leyva: I always get this wrong. Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services. So it's like EOP here, and here it has a different definition, but it's pretty much like EOPS is the program that yeah-- So there's like single mothers, there's you know, marginal students that need extra support. Visintainer: Mmm-hmm Leyva: They're gonna provide the, the support, the resources, the mentorship, the guidance, the tutoring. We have tutoring labs in this department. And our own academic counselors in there too. We were just like, Here's your head plan. And IGETC [Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum; course that California community college students can complete to satisfy general education requirements] and all that other stuff that goes along with, you know, students that are getting ready to transfer. And Transitions fell into the lap of Noel Gomez in the early, his name was Noel Gomez. And we pretty much formulated the program together. He was working at administration. We had the students do the work. We started collaborating. He still runs to this day. He runs the Transitions Program. And he is the EOPS director now too, or interim director, I think. Visintainer: Okay. Leyva: So he stayed in the same field doing the same work. And it's just it's cool to still have those ties, those connections and still watching him do such beautiful work and be a mentor to me, you know, So. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 11 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: So you mentioned that the college gave you a meeting space. And then… and then you get your first kind of cohort together. What was the-- can you talk about the first meeting that you had? Leyva: With the school or with the students? Visintainer: With the students? Leyva: <laughs> Yeah. ‘Cause that was interesting because they said, “You can start your own program, or you can start this program. Can you get students?” And I said, “Yes.” The first meeting was really interesting because we had a small group of students who had already started community college who were helping. But I remember just like they're like, “Just make a flyer.” And I had no idea I can make a really fancy flyer now. Back then I said I think I even said “Transitions Program.” Program-- ex-convicts I think was written on the flyers. Very unethical or very, like, these are not the language we're using anymore. But I had the, the email and the phone number to call. I remember making-- so funny because I made a Word document and I put the information on the top and then a copy and paste and put it below and then printed 'em out and then cut 'em in half. Like this, this is like my ideal of making flyers, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I remember, like my first conversation with students or potential students is every time I was at the parole office, I'd show up like, “Hey man, you should try to go to school where, you know, we got this program going off in school.” Most people were like, uninterested or like, no, I remember even seeing one guy, he's like, “Oh, yeah, I'll check it out.” And then he crumbled it up and threw it away. Right. But I'd show up to the courthouse and I'd see folks walking out of the court and I'd be like, you know, “Hey, you should try coming to school, try going to school.” I'd put flyers in the sober living homes, or I'd go to sober living homes and hand out flyers or and so it was, it was that conversation. It wasn't just me. It was me and Malik and Tyrone. And even in our neighborhoods where we'd know people who were our friends that are formerly incarcerated, it'd be like, “Hey, you should try home to school.” And we already knew that they were kind of tired of the old lifestyle too so they were like, “Yeah, I'll try it out.” And it just quickly-- that was the first meetings. That was the first conversations about going to school. And I also knew that when they did come up to school, that I would have to show 'em, this is where the-- this is how you feel like application. This is where you do your FAFSA [Free Application for Federal Aid]. This is, you know, this is a financial aid, academic counseling or academic advising or, everything my niece showed me, I showed them. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 12 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And everything I wanted to know, I was asking EOPS counselors and director, you know, “What do I do if a student asked about a job?” And they're like, “Oh, go to Human Resources. See what jobs are available on campus, make sure they have federal work study.” So I learned it all pretty quickly. And that was the conversations with students. Cause I'm like, “Look, we can you get a job up here, you can do, you can get food up here.” They were, you know, there's you know, there's-- I have a learning disability, so I was a part of the DSS, the Disabled Students Program. And I was like, “Look, if you got learning disabilities,” and you know trying to break that stigma too right away. Right. So it's all about gathering resources. And every time I've met with a group of students, potential students, or individually, it was like all this information that I was giving 'em. Right. So it was quickly getting the buy in, but I also felt really good about what I was doing. Yeah. You know, and that it felt good to be like, “Yeah, okay, I'll do it. I'll sign up.” And then you just meet 'em at the campus and you're filling out the application. Just at that time, it was just one finger typing too. Cause I didn't know how to type either, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I, you know, I just, it just felt good. And they did, there was a lot of, still to this day, people come into college and this community college, or even come to the university, there's that imposter syndrome. “I can't do it.” And it’s just like, “Yes you can. Yes you can.” And you know, it's still, yeah. That was the first conversation. And it's-- and it feels like it still happens to this day. Right. Even though we got somewhat of a formula, we have great people, great resources. It feels like those first conversations happen all the time. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And which even though a lot of things have changed, the individual self hasn’t. “I don't believe in myself, I can't do it.” And it's like, “Yes, you can. Yes you can.” It feels like 2007 and 2022, those conversations are still the same. Right. So Yeah. It's conversations happen on a regular, so. Visintainer: You've talked to a couple times about Imposter Syndrome and that's like, so rampant in academia. Leyva: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 13 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: And then you throw students that are maybe not familiar with an academic environment into the mix, and you add all these barriers, these like bureaucratic and logistical barriers, like university campuses are not necessarily easy places to navigate. Especially for folks that aren't familiar with them. So how did you go about addressing and facilitating students to be successful? Navigating the bureaucracy? Leyva: You just show up <laughs>, you know what I mean? You just show up. You don't wanna show up or you feel you're gonna get push back or you feel like you don't belong. I mean, there's so many feelings even now. I mean, I still deal with that now and my role in administration and I love this campus because it's been very supportive of the programs, of me, of our students. It’s a great community. Even Palomar, MiraCosta is very open. But you just show up. You just, you just show up. And I think for me, and I think also too, for a lot of our students, we know it's waiting for us if we don't show up, you know. We know what the other side of this looks like. The gangs, the drugs, the alcohol, the jails, the prisons. And that's not for all, all of us, right? There's not drugs and alcohol with everybody. But we understand what's on the other side. If we're not doing this, what else do we have? Right? And so we just show up and it feels good to actually do this work. And when that imposter syndrome or you know, that belief in self isn't there, or our value is low, self-esteem is low, we still just show up. You know, we show up. And I, you know, I think I've seen people show up and I'm like, “God, I have to do that.” Cause I get in my own head. And I know that same thing when I show up, other people show up and it's like we're there. Right. You just show up and the bureaucracy is the bureaucracy, it's gonna be there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: When I'm getting pushback, not the funding or, “You can't do that program,” or you can't, you know, it's like I always tell folks we've heard no so many times their life is here. No. Again, it's not gonna hurt us, but we're still gonna show up, you know? And I think that we've had a lot of doors closed our faces or a lot of denials for jobs or resources. And it happens with formerly incarcerated folks it happens and it's gonna, it's gonna happen even more, but we're still gonna show up. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And we're still gonna show that we can do the work. We're gonna do the work. And statistically thinking or talking that's like all incarcerated people in the United States, 95% of people are coming home someday. And that always is one of those driving things to say, like, coming home to what? Let's create something so that when they do come home, there's resources in the community. There's resources in academia, there's resources that're gonna help their mental health, their PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder], their you know, and we have to, we have to build those really soft landings for folks to come Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 14 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 home and have a fighting chance to make it in society. You know? And I think that we live within a system that still, even though we see a lot of positivity and we're going in the right direction, there's still a lot of barriers. There's still a lot of doubt. There's still an industrial complex in the prison that relies on our labor, relies on our, the exploitation of who we are. There's still laws and policies and politicians that say, “Well, we can create these laws and policies to continue funneling people into the prison system.” It still exists. And it's-- I mean, we still have the thirteenth Amendment <laughs>, you know, we're still combating just the thirteenth amendment alone, let alone all these local laws and policies that just flood our jails and prisons. We just show up. We continue to do the work, and we continue to role model. We continue to, to, you know, I love watching people like you know, Frankie Guzman up in Oakland who's you know, a formerly incarcerated lawyer who's a policy lawyer, you know James Binnall from Long Beach, he's a professor, Dr. James Binnall, who-- he's a formerly incarcerated lawyer, he did his LSATs [Law School Admission Test] in prison, and now he's a professor and he does a lot of policy work. And it's like folks like that; they're inspiring. You know what I mean? They're inspiring. It's like, you know, we-- again, they show up. I show up, they’re motivation for me. And I can just rattle off a bunch of names of people who are formerly incarcerated who’re serious allies for this population. And they want to, they want to do, they wanna do great work. Or they do great work. And it's just like that, that encourages me to continue doing the best work I can. Visintainer: Yeah. It sounds like tenacity then is a really big ingredient to success? Leyva: Yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some other characteristics or expand upon that if you want, but I was just curious, like, what are the characteristics that you feel are really important to build, uh, for folks to build when they're getting out of prison? Leyva: I always tell folks this: I say, “Greatest education that you have is your own lived experience.” Right. That we use every time we've had a door shut in our face, every time we've been denied something, every time we've been at the lowest place in our life. Like those, that's the motivator to create change. That right there should be single-handedly the thing we use to create change. So you know, our strength is just who we are. You know, I've seen unfortunate-- some of the-- California Department of Corrections is a hard place to live. Yeah. You know, there's everything from drugs and alcohol and violence and Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 15 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 assault and denial of medical, mental health services, medical services, it's hard. And it's like that right there though is probably one of the greatest teachers we have that builds our character up to be like, “I don't wanna take no for an answer. No, I'm here. I'm gonna do something else.” Right. And I always tell folks, it gives us a reason to fight, a reason to <unintelligible>. And obviously not talking physically, but mentally, emotionally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Politics and, you know, getting involved with like, you know, they should build us up to this place where we feel empowered to create change. We already have it. We've already been to the lowest places that society can send us. Right. And I think that we can only go up from here if we stop colluding with the system that's there. Right. We have to stop colluding with it. Visintainer: Yeah. What, what do you mean by that? Colluding with the system? Leyva: You know, we bump up against it. You know, it's just same thing if you-- when an individual, and I see this happen, and it's disheartening when an individual loses a job or can't get a job and he or she knows that, you know, the informal economy exists, like selling drugs or, you know, hustling for what they need. I respect that. You gotta do what you have to do as a person, as a family person. But we get denied jobs, get denied access to certain resources, and then our only, we can resort back to some drug sales or some criminal activity. We're colluding with them. We're actually saying, “Well you know, you're gonna call me bad or create this level where I can't succeed. I'm gonna do what I have to do.” And we go back to colluding with the system that send us to jail or prison. Stick with it. Stay within the long haul. We're always gonna get what we want. But, and the more we collude with the system, the more we actually allow the system to say, “This is why we need laws and policies. This is why crime rates are the way they are. This is—" And so it's like it's like we have to just really try our best to not collude with that system but change that system. And as insiders, we can change the prison system. We can change the laws around gang injunctions, mandatory minimums, three strikes laws, and all these things that are created through laws and policies. Why can't we become the politicians to change that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Formerly incarcerated people can be politicians. You know, we can actually be [on] school boards, city councils, county supervisors, all the way to the state level, all the way to the federal level. We can be politicians and instead of colluding with this criminality as they used the word, you know, let's just bump Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 16 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 up against the system and change the system. Make it work for all people. So it's fair and just and equitable. And that's what we push. That's what I push, you know? And, you know, and I'm not alone. There's a lot of beautiful people doing great work out there. Men and women, gay, straight, able, disabled. There's a lot of formerly incarcerated people who are doing this work that, you know, we just, yeah. We just put our best foot forward and keep walking. <laughs> Visintainer: I was curious if there was any particular like majors or disciplines that students that you mentor through either Transitions or Project Rebound here if they tend to gravitate towards any specific majors, disciplines in academia? Leyva: Yeah. The biggest one we see across the state, not just here at Cal State San Marcos, across the state, is usually sociology and criminology, right? Because we want to, we come from that. We know that so well and we do that. But also like human services, like counselors, drug and alcohol treatment counselors MSWs [Master’s of Social Work], because we want to, we also wanna help, right? We're very empathetic. Some of the majors they don't gravitate to, which I'm actually excited about at Cal State San Marcos, it's usually like STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] fields. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: We do have four students here at Cal State San Marcos that are in STEM, which is probably the most, because we don't gravitate to it. We gravitate towards how can we create change. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So sociology, criminology, justice studies, MSW, counseling. Those are the main fields. You know, some psychology ‘cause you do-- we're helpers. We want formerly incarcerated folks want to help out another individual. My goal is to get people into political science and other fields to be like, “Let's go to Washington.” You know what I mean? Let's get in those halls. Yeah. And you can do that with sociology and stuff. But those are the main, those are the big disciplines or the big majors that people go into. And that was mine, bachelor's degree in psychology. My master's degree in sociology. And my doctorate will be in education. And that's all because I want to create, understand these systems so well that I could create the change within 'em, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 17 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 And that's formerly incarcerated folks. I got a group of twenty-two formerly incarcerated students at MiraCosta right now. And all of 'em say same thing. I want to help people. So I wanna do sociology. I wanna become a counselor, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And I'm like, “Where's my politicians at though?” You know what I mean? Where's my <laughs>? Where's my—'cause you know, there's also, they understand that, you know, some of 'em say they want to be nurses, but there's no access to nursing if you're formally incarcerated. There's a lot of fields that uh-- actually not a whole lot. Nursing is one. Education is another. ‘Cause a lot of times if you're formally incarcerated, you can't go back in the high schools to teach, can't get your credentials if you're formerly incarcerated, which I think should change. I think we would make great teachers, especially of high school students. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there would be real value in, in having people who are formerly incarcerated in classrooms. Leyva: Yeah. And we see that too, because when I was in Santa Barbara, I was working in the high schools teaching social and emotional intelligence and social justice work through a non-profit. And the high schools over there saw my value. Out here, we could take Project Rebound students and other students we work in, you know, continuation high schools and court, juvenile court community schools, and those schools sees the value of formerly incarcerated students coming into their school, doing the mentorship, doing all that stuff. And there is a lot of value in it, you know, and not just, I mean, you know, we gravitate towards drug and alcohol treatment or counseling because we understand those folks really well. We also understand marginal high school students and middle school students, they say, “Let us in here” because we can actually really change the outcome for a lot of the students, especially our Black and Brown students that get targeted in other places other than the schools; their communities, even their homes. We can actually-- I feel like we can really do a lot of work in that area, but until the policies around hiring formerly incarcerated folks to work in high schools, to work as teachers, to work as nurses, caretakers… The other thing too is we're doing that work in prison. Nurses in prison exist, but some of the main caretakers-- people doing like CNA [Certified Nursing Assistant] work or LVN [Licensed Practical Nurse] work, they're inmates. They're, I don't really want to use the word inmates anymore. They're incarcerated folks doing that type of work. They're caretaking for elders, they’re caretaking for people with terminal illness. They're doing dentistry work. They're being, you know, incarcerated folks are already doing that work. We, they allow us to do it there, but as soon as we step out of the prison, “Oh, you're not allowed to do that work anymore.” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and it's like, we can benefit. We have a big benefit to society if you allow us to do that work. Right. Just like incarcerated firefighters, they're out here fighting some of the biggest fires. We can do it, we can do it while we're in prison, but we come out and we can't join a fire station. And the laws, that's the other thing too. That's another part of where laws have changed. Now formerly incarcerated firefighters can get a job doing forestry fighting now. And that's, you know our next step is let us in the firehouses in the cities, right? Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 18 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So small policy changes, small changes are happening. Visintainer: And how does employment in prison happen? Leyva: Ah, that's a good question. You know, you go to prison and there's a couple ways. One if you're an incarcerated folk like I was, I had to serve eighty-five percent of my sentence. So a lot of resources for somebody already serving that much time. You kind of get put on the back burner. There's also a population of incarcerated folks that go and do, they have to do fifty percent of the time. So they get sentenced to ten years. They only do five. They have to earn that five years. So they put 'em to work right away. And then also if you're, if you're lucky enough to just be like, I got certain skills. ‘Cause they do, they run your resume. “What kind of work have you done? What kind of skills do you have?” And they'll place you if there's jobs available, right? So it all really depends what skills you have, how much time you have. So there's a few defining things that get work. But you know, when you go to prison and you get a job, I was a landscaper in prison and it was a job I landed just because somebody was going home and they made a recommendation saying, “Hey Martin should do this job,” right? So they hired me right away and it was… The pay scale. I think the pay scale recently changed. So they're hiring certain people with certain jobs that actually is a decent wage. But I was making thirteen cents an hour in prison. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And because they had restitution, they were taking fifty-five percent of my thirteen cents to pay back restitution. And so at the end of a month, you get paid once a month. maybe able to buy maybe a jar coffee, <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. Jar of coffee, a couple soups and not a whole lot coming from there, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 19 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: So and there's still a lot of prisons that are still paying their people cause they're still paying folks. Pennies, pennies on the dollar, you know. Visintainer: And is that based out of like some sort of private company using labor? Leyva: Um. Visintainer: Why is there, uh, why is there such a huge disparity between the wages that somebody's being paid when they're incarcerated and somebody that's not incarcerated doing the same work? Leyva: It's just the exploitation of labor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Depending on what you're doing inside prison, what prison, what industry is contracted with the prison because certain, you know, IBM and Levi jeans and, you know, no longer Victoria's Secret, but there's a lot of companies that contract with the prison industry for cheap labor. Right? So it just depends on those contracts. And that's the rise of mass incarceration though, right? You can actually have companies and corporations that on Wall Street, stock market, made in America. You know, you be careful. Chevron and Exxon, they all have a lot of products made in prison. There’re so many companies that use prison labor cause it's cheap and they can say that their product is being made in the USA right? And it sucks. Even like the federal prison system for instance, they have a corporation called UNICOR [Federal Prison Industries] and they make all like military flak jackets and military gear. And yes, they're made in the USA but they're made by cheap labor, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And again, given that we're doing the labor in prison, we're getting the skills, much needed skills, but it doesn't equate to jobs as soon as we leave prison. And I think that's where, you know, I'm glad to be working while I'm in prison, keeping our minds busy staying active, which is good. But you know, you've Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 20 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 got the private prison industry, it's, you know, you got an entire industry that's on Wall Street. People can actually put money in the stock market and just relies on the exploitation of people. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's kind of a gross system that we have <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I've seen the labor, you know, everything from making our license plates to maybe a lot of this furniture that's actually here was built in prison. Our shoes, our clothing items, everything that we have is actually built in prison. So it's like there's an entire industry that relies on our labor, you know? There's another thing: a lot of people don't really understand that, you know? They think that jobs went overseas. Yes. Jobs went over overseas for sure, but jobs also went into the prison system. Jobs that could have been for a lot of people. So we can't blame fully overseas. We blame our prison system and the allowance of written contracts to have this labor be done there. You know? And a lot of people are just, they don't… They're just not well informed about what's really going on. Right. And so yeah. One, I'm glad that was working ‘cause I would drive myself nuts if I wasn't. But it's also like, you know, you’re completely exploiting, you know, my labor. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. When you were a landscaper, excuse me. So you were landscaping like outside of the prison? Leyva: No, it was on the inside. It was on the inside, Yeah. And, you know, it was sure around some of the offices, never was allowed off the grounds in the prison system. But the aesthetics of the prison was important for the face. Right. It has to look good on the outside. The inside was really quite run down, but the outside, the grass was cut nicely. The hedges were trimmed, the flowers were growing on the outside. And that's what you're doing. And trust me, I really enjoyed it ‘cause I like being in the sun. I love gardening. I love plants. I love the work. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 21 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 But, you know, yeah, it was-- I was happy to do the work. I wasn't, you know, especially then I was like, “Oh, I'm cool with this job. I like these thirteen cents an hour,” because I was misinformed. I was uneducated. Soon as I came home, and I knew that there was like some exploitation happening, [unclear] understand it, you know, on the outside I'd be getting paid ten dollars an hour, fifteen dollars an hour, whatever I was doing on the outside. And in here it sucks to get thirteen cents an hour or whatever. But now that I'm in academe, I'm educated, I understand these, how the system allows for this to happen with the thirteenth amendment and all these laws and policies and how I really honestly feel like even in education, how I was targeted as a Brown male, it all makes sense to me when I see the rise of the prison system, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: At one point, crime rate, crime rates are kind of going up right now, but for the longest time, crime rates were dropping. Were on a steady decline, but our prison system kept growing. And it took education for me to really understand what is happening with laws and policy, what is happening with contracts in the prison system, what is happening with our politicians who are, you know, law and order issue. You know, “We need to get crime under control!” I'm like, crime rates are dropping though. Why is our prison population 2.3 million people in the United States if crime rates are dropping now, Covid and everything else. Yeah. Crime rates are, are rising, but they're not at a dangerous level. Right. Where our prison system stays at the same amount of people. You know, we can, I love research <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I love research, right? Visintainer: Yeah. And I don't know if this is necessarily a question, but then there's also, you know, I've been seeing like people talking about New York, the crime rates are not actually rising, but there's this narrative that the crime rates in the city are rising. So you have like Adams, the mayor, you know, running on this like tough on crime cop platform and getting elected. And so, I don't know, I don't know what my question is, but I think there's something there too with, with media narratives being-Leyva: Oh, yeah. I mean that's huge for us. And it's also the time of the year too, right? With, with elections coming up, obviously gonna be this focus on crime and crime in America and all these things. And they're gonna, it's easy for politicians and media to be like, “Well, this crime happened in Chicago, this crime happened in New York, and they could be like all people, right?” It's like, no, that was an incident. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 22 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Right? And it's gonna happen at this time of the year during elections, midterm elections presidential elections. It's gonna, you're gonna hear about how horrible we are, right? And as soon as the elections stop, you'll go, we'll go focus on something else, Right? Monkey Pox or something else, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's always gonna be something to focus on. But right now, crime rates are the thing because of this media. And that's the interesting thing is how we always, I always call this the sandwich effect, right? When you take media and they'll start the conversation with “murderers this, murderers that,” and then they'll have like this middle part of like low-level crimes and criminals, and which is a huge bulk of the percentage of people in prison are crimes that are just like, you know, stealing or property crimes or something that's not dangerous, but it is a crime. So you start off with murderers and murderers and all these violent crimes, which is a very small percentage. And then you talk about this big section of people who are low level crimes and petty criminals, whatever they call 'em. It's a huge percentage of our prison system. And then you end with like rapists and child molesters, people who are misinformed through our media, they hear murderers and then something else, and then they'll end with like murders and rapists, and that's where they lump everybody up. But our major prison population is really people that are like systematically inundated with inequality, lack of access to jobs, lack of access to resources like medical, and they commit crimes that are like informal economies. They're like, you know, petty thief or selling drugs or, you know, something-- that's the bulk of our prison system. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But media more entrepreneurship says murderers, killers and violent crime, and then they end with murder or rapists and child molesters. And that's a very small percentage of our prison population. You know? And but when you, when you start with that and end with this? We're all bad people. Right. And it's not… Yeah, I'm so critical about media <laughs>, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: ‘Cause they, they strategically figured out how to get the vote. You know? And I'm not talking about, I'm not voting for one. It's like, you know, liberal Democrats are one way and conservative Republicans are another. And I kind of feel like, no, there's a lot of in between that we're ignoring you know? There's a lot of great politicians or people who are just silenced by these two big conglomerates. Right. And they're supported by these big media corporations. And they're all-- I would say they're all in it together. Let's just be very critical about them. That's my job as a citizen, as an educator, is let's just be critical about our government, the systems that run our government, the corporations that run our Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 23 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 government. Because if it isn't about the prison system, it's also about lack of education for people. It's also about lack of medical care. It's a lack of good livable wages. You know what I mean? There's so much more if we just remove the prison system, there's so much more to focus on. We just need to be critical about the entire system we're living in. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I think Covid taught me that because we breathe the same air, we should be talking about the same things. Right? <laughs> One person gets sick. We should all think about, we all can get sick too, right? And I think there's an illness with the prison system. It impacts us all. Your tax dollars, my tax dollars. I think there's forty-five percent of people in the United States who have a loved one in prison or who know somebody's been locked up. Some major portion of our population who know somebody's impacted by the prison system. We should all be focusing on it together. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. And we're the largest carcell-. Sorry, I didn't have trouble with this word. Leyva: Carceral. Visintainer: Carceral, Thank you. Leyva: Yeah. <Laughs> Visintainer: Carceral country on earth, aren't we? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I always say it's a, you know, United States is five percent of the world's population, but twenty-five percent of the world's prison population. It's pretty wild. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 24 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and you think, like, you know, China and other countries are bigger than ours, but they, they have less prison system. Right. And it's again, we can get into the exploitation of labor. But-Visintainer: Yeah. And I do want to talk about systems with you, but could we shift for a little bit and talk a little bit about kind of your journey to where you got and then I want to follow up with systems. I got some kind of more big picture questions for you. So I just wanted to ask, where did you grow up? Leyva: Born and raised in Santa Barbara [California]. I always have to name my neighborhood. The west side of Santa Barbara is my home. I love that place. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Don't want to ever want to move back, but I love that place. <laughs> Visintainer: Yeah. What do you love about it? Leyva: It's just a great little community. It's beautiful beaches, mountains family still there. A lot of history there. When I go back, just like cruising certain neighborhoods, certain streets. It's just a lot of-- it's just a beautiful place. Visintainer: Yeah. What did in your childhood, what did your community look like? Leyva: It's interesting you ask that question because growing up my community was just like, it's a beautiful community. A lot of good little restaurants, a lot of good neighbors, a lot of good food, a lot of good communities. But you don't know what you don't know, right? But it was a lot of poverty, a lot of crime, a lot of sadness, a lot of hardships. But you don't really see that when you're in the middle of it. Right. You don't really ever, you don't ever really critique it when you're like, this is my life. Right. So it was, there was a lot of that and a lot of-- there's a lot of beautiful community built around this ugly thing, you know what I mean? Like the crime and the police and, you know, the lack of schools. But if you don't Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 25 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 know what it is, you just, and that's all you know, and you're accepted, right? Yeah. It is beautiful. My family, my mom, my two sisters, and, you know, cousins and community members-- its good people all around. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. What were some of the gathering places? Leyva: The gathering places in my community growing up? The home is always one. That's the best one. But, you know, our, you know, little parks. And for me, I like this question actually, the gathering places. I don't know why the… places like Oak Park and Alameda Park, these places are ringing a bell, but also the corners. Right. thinking one in particular. San Andres and Micheltorena Street, like those were the gathering spots. Those are like—Bath and Ortega Street. You just see the little cornerstore friends and family gathered there, you know? Yeah. Starting trouble or laughing or yelling at each other or something. But yeah, those are-- I like that question. Visintainer: Yeah. What did Oak Park look like? Leyva: Was Oak Park and Ortega Park were the two main parks and I’m thinking Oak Park was just that a lot of oak trees, a lot of barbecue pits what they would call the kiddie pool. Right. The pool that's only like a foot deep and the playground. And on weekends there was the smell of barbecue and beer <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Visintainer: You know, and Ortega Park is still to this day, one of the most beautiful places there in Santa Barbara because there's same thing, the swimming pool, the playground, the basketball courts, the soccer field, and it's just a block wide. It's not even that big of a park. But there's murals, right? That's like kind of Santa Barbara's own Chicano Park. It's just one little area. Okay. But there's murals on the wall and there's growing up I didn't see the, the crime that was happening, the drug you started, I didn't see that stuff because that's just, you're in the mix, right? You're in the, that's just what happens there. Now I can see it differently through different spectacles, but yeah, it was just the same thing. The smell of barbecue and beer and laughing and music, you know what I mean? Visintainer: Did you have a favorite mural or do you have a favorite mural? Leyva: God, I wish I could show you the picture of it. Yes. There's like this Aztec warrior mural and it was just like this side view. A guy named Manuel Unzueta is the muralist and he's from Santa Barbara. He did a lot of the murals there. But yeah, it was like this Aztec god kind of person. And back then I wasn't really Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 26 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 like really into the history yet as I am now, but I remember going back to Ortega Park after being educated after coming home from prison and be like this, like now there's like a connection, not only that's my childhood, but also like academically thinking like I understand the history of where we come from, right? Yeah. So but also I love bright colors and love like images, so yeah. That was, that was one that always stood out. Visintainer: You talked about barbecue a couple times. What kind of barbecue? What did folks like to barbecue? Leyva: Oh, you know, tri-tip and chicken! Santa Barbara, it was Santa Maria nearby. Santa Maria is the birthplace of tri-tip. And so this tri-tip and chicken and corn wrapped in foil, <laughs> put on the barbecue pit. And that was, that was the thing. Visintainer: That sounds good. Leyva: Yeah. <laughs> Visintainer: Who were your childhood role models? Leyva: Um. My childhood role models. Quote unquote the “bad guys.” I didn't see 'em as bad guys, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's funny because uh, just had this conversation earlier today, but you know, family members, like my uncles, you know, they were the cool guys who dressed nice, who got the handshakes, who got the respect in the neighborhood. And again, growing up in that, you don't see or think about the negativity that's going on. But they were my role models because they were the ones who like would give me a hug and tell me they loved me or tell me they see me or buy me a coke or an ice cream. Right? And you look up to that, right? Not understanding that the money that they used to buy that stuff for people in the neighborhood, like little kids in the neighborhood also came from drug sales. You don't see that, or nor do you even think about that. You just know that these role models were like the men who were, you know, the men who actually recognized me and saw me. The women who would always be like, “Are you doing your homework?” And, you know, and the women weren't particularly like into a positive lifestyle either, but they would use terms like mijo or mi rey, right? “My little king.” And they would always say, you know, go to school and do good. And the kid, the men would be like, “Don't get into trouble.” You know what I mean? You know, but if you got in trouble, they'd be like, “Good job.” You know what I mean? <laughter> So it’s like one on one hand, don't get in trouble. Second hand like, Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 27 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 alright, good job! You know what I mean? So yeah. They were, they were the ones that actually saw us for who we were. Right. And I love having that experience in life and now being able to see it from a different vantage point. Right. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: They were just doing the best they can with what they had. Right. And that they had a-- you know, my mom and my stepdad and my uncles and all the other men and women in the neighborhood giving me the best they can with their own unresolved trauma. Right. That they did the best they can and that their life was better than what they had when they were kids. And that my life was better than they had it. And that my generation after me, my kids have it better than what I had it. And that's the trajectory of life right, now that I'm able to see it from a vantage point. Absolutely. Love those role models. You know, even though now I'm like, “Ah, you were doing some shady stuff, but I love you for it.” You know what I mean? So, Yeah. Visintainer: What did your stepdad and your mom do? Did they do for a living? Leyva: My mom main job was house cleaning, cleaning hotel rooms or cleaning houses or factory work. And my stepdad was a-- he worked in a nursery and a, he worked in a nursery taking care of plants and also a mechanic at the nursery. That was their main industry. You know, I was, I did the first gen talk today and that was interesting. I'm a first-generation college student. College, school wasn't that important to my family. Work was, you know, they valued work over education. You know and working hard too. I think I got my work ethic from my mom. My mom sometimes especially after my stepdad left, would work, guaranteed two jobs and sometimes if she could three jobs, which wasn't the best for my upbringing pertaining to like a mom I could come home to and do homework with. I never grew up with that. Right? So, you know, I left high school in ninth grade, so prior to going to prison and getting my high school diploma in prison, I was, had a ninth-grade education. And so that's what I felt like when I entered these spaces. I'm like, I've a ninth-grade education ‘cause I don't remember my high school diploma. But, you know, thinking about my mom, I mean, that was, you know, she was, she's a hard worker. She was a hard worker. She retired early because she worked so hard. Right. Medically retired. But yeah, it was uh… good work ethic I'll tell that. Show up to work and were just sick or not, show up <laughs>. I'm like-- When I'm sick. But she's like, “No, you gotta go to work.” I'm like, all right. Going to work sick. But going. Visintainer: Yeah. We come back to tenacity then. Leyva: Yeah. <laughs> Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 28 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Yeah. Can you tell me about the first time that you got in legal trouble? Leyva: Yeah. About fifteen [years old]. I mean, kind of a funny story, but you know, I got in trouble for stealing mopeds. I remember going to court for it and like, “Why are you stealing mopeds?” Or, you know, they didn't ask the question. I just wanted to ride a moped. I didn’t to sell it or try to make money. I was just like, I learned how to hot wire a moped. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And as soon as I did that, every time I saw a little Honda Spree, I pop the top, pop the front cover off and pull the wire and it'd just kick right over. And it was just fun. And you know, I got in trouble for having, I think like three Honda Sprees in my backyard, you know, and got popped and got in trouble and, you know, I'm, you know, committing crimes you know. Visintainer: And how did you learn how to hot wire a moped? Leyva: Once again, observational learning. Yeah. I think I think there's this like misunderstanding how people commit crimes and yeah. Certain people will teach you how to do certain things, but for a majority of people in prison, we just learned by observation. You know, I saw this older guy in my neighborhood and I don't even remember. He's like, “I gotta go!” And he went up to this Honda Spree, he did like the little move. And he just took a little knife out of his pocket and popped it and I saw him take the wires out and jumped on it and kick started it. And just hit the handlebars cause the handlebars had the little lock on it. The lock broke real easy. And he just took off. You know, I was like, “I'm gonna try that.” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and then I saw a Honda Spree and I know stealing ain't nice. I know it's wrong, but at the time you're like, that was so cool. How did you do that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 29 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: I saw a Honda Spree downtown one day and I think it took me a little longer <laughs> to get it going, but as soon as I got it going, there was a rush. Right. And again, I'm not saying it was okay cause it's not. But that rush felt good. Visintaienr: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I saw him, I'm like, “Ah, where'd you get that little, where'd you get that little Honda?” I'm like, “I took it.” He's like, “Oh, let me take it.” And he took it from me. Right. So it's like when you steal a bike in the neighborhood, it becomes a neighborhood bike. Everybody's using the same stolen bike. Right. And yeah. It's just a thing to do right? Through observations. Even like I talk about my addiction cause I was addicted to substances and alcohol. And I say it openly with students. I was addicted to heroin for a long time, and it wasn't like somebody taught me how to do it. It wasn’t… You weren't literally taught how to do it. You just see it happening. And when you see it happening, it just becomes, “I know how to do that,” because you saw somebody else how to unfortunately use drugs, whether intravenously or not, you just learn it by watching. And I think that's how we learn how to say the things we say, dress how we dress, act like we act, respond, how we respond, whether you know, violence was never taught to me, but it's something I grew up watching. Right. I remember everything from like learning how to express sadness. I remember my stepdad would be like mad, like sad and then he would just like hit the door with his hand. And when you're a little kid and you're watching that or he'd say like, I'm so mad. And then he hit something. If I'm mad too, I gotta hit something. Right. And it's everything with committing crimes to expressing feelings and emotions. It's all observational. Visintainer: Yeah. So, is there an analog to the work you do now? Providing-Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Providing, modeling for people that are learning? Leyva: Yeah. Emotional intelligence and emotional management. When we feel something, you know, it's me. I've been clean and sober nineteen years and when my mom died four years ago, because I trained my mind that when I feel a big emotion, my mind goes automatically to the reaction, which is the drug use the violence or whatever. Even though my mind thought about it, I've taught myself that there's no visceral reaction. My biological response doesn't have to, I don't have to do these things. I don't have to act out in these ways. And so when I work with individuals around emotional management and understanding that we have no control over our emotions, you're gonna feel something, you're gonna feel it! But how we respond to it, the emotional management part is how we should focus on. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 30 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Mindfulness, meditation, taking a deep breath, taking a step back. I always say, “Pretend you're the outsider looking in.” Take a step back and take a look at what is gonna hap-- what you know is gonna happen or what you feel is gonna happen and respond from that place rather than inside of it. And I'm also big on dismantling patriarchy ‘cause I feel like patriarchy is the number one pusher of so many systemic issues of oppression. Even the war in Ukraine is patriarchy. Right. Like patriarchy is very dangerous. And as somebody who is raised in it and colluded with it, they've created it so well… I want my kids to have a good understanding of who their father is. Not in that violent state, but in this healed or healing individual who can talk about feelings and emotions, who can allow myself to cry without feeling something I couldn't, I could wear a pink shirt and pink socks without somebody saying something to me because I'm very comfortable with who I am. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And I think that working with individuals that becomes my educational piece, is we have to really learn who we are and how we respond. Because how we respond sometimes takes us to the places we are, the jails and the prisons, our addictions, our own self harm, our own self destruction. I love these places, these places. And education has given me this understanding of who society constructs me to be versus who I want to be. And a lot of times we follow the construction because they make it glorious or cool or like, this is all I have. It's not all we have, we're meant to be other people. We're meant to be who we really are. Empathetically, empathetic, caring, understanding, loving, warm, you know. So yeah. I teach a lot of emotional intelligence to our students. ‘Cause I think we need to be there for our families and our communities. And we can't do that if we're angry or mad or not-- being angry or mad is okay. But how we respond to it is different. Right. We shouldn't have to respond in negative ways, you know? And so far so good. I've been doing this work for a long time. I see a lot of change. So, you know. Visintainer: That is beautiful statement. Thank you. Um, I don't know, I think a lot about, you know, growing up in patriarchy and masculinity and how harmful, like, I didn't even know how harmful it was, you know? Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: And yeah, I don't know. I'm glad you're doing the work at dismantling it, I guess is all I have to say about it. Leyva: <laughs> Yeah. No, it's an uphill battle sometimes, right? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 31 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Yeah. Leyva: But I always say, you know what, in football they always say it's a ten-yard fight. Just go ten yards and start again. Go ten yards, start again. And but I feel it's an obligation too, it's an obligation. And I want to, if there's one way to shut down the prison system is really help people stop going. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know. That's the goal. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you had three mopeds in your backyard. So how did you, how did you get caught? Leyva: Just being reckless, right. Driving without, you know, back then you didn't need a helmet. But you know, driving through my neighborhood and just crossing stop signs and cops, you know, or like, I remember one time I was driving. And if you remember the Honda Sprees, they had like this little section where you put your little feet right? And I was driving and had one guy standing right in front of me. So I was leaning to the side to look where I was going. And then I had another friend of mine sitting behind me. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So, three people on a small Honda Spree, cop saw us and said, pull ‘em over. Right. And as soon as I stopped, my two friends just took off. And I'm like, “Well, here I am.” Right. And so obviously the cop could see the wires on hanging on the side and, you know, it's so funny to think back at the little things I used to do and be like, how did I think I can get away with this stuff? You know? And that's how you got caught. Just being reckless and I guess funny at the same time. But, you know, the, the consequence isn't something to laugh at, right. <Laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know. So-- Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 32 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Did you go to juvenile detention? Leyva: Went to juvenile detention. Juvenile court. Mom was always working. So my sister, remember my sister going to court with me, they were both older than me. Back then it really was a slap on the wrist, a little juvenile detention you know, a little probation check-in here and there. You know, the more I got in trouble... I dunno life moved really fast ‘cause actually, you know, I'm eighteen and going in and out the county jail again for, you know, driving cars without licenses for DUIs [Driving Under the Influence], for stolen-- possession of stolen property. Not like, and not saying that DUIs is not a big deal, it's a huge deal But you know, nothing really big or major. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Levya: Right. No violence. And sure there was violence happening, it just never got caught doing it. Right? And I always tell folks like, I've been really lucky not to go away for the crimes that I have committed. Not to say I should have gotten away with it, but I did. And it's like, also it's another fuel that adds, it's more fuel to be like, “I need to do this work because I know that there's a lot of people doing things they wish they weren't doing and they're just not getting caught for it.” It's like, let's give them another avenue to go down. You know? So but I think my life led to the point where, you know, I got in trouble for selling guns or having, you know, illegal guns and, you know, this stuff was again, all just part of a lifestyle that I was living that, we don't critique it. We're just in the middle of it. All the way to my last, my last prison term which was a robbery, you know, walked into a place and demanded some money, not even demanded it. Just say, “Hey, I need some money.” I knew, I actually knew I would get caught on my last crime. I knew I would get caught. I didn't run, didn't try to pretend it wouldn't happen. Committed a robbery in 2004 and knew I would get in trouble. And I think it was my, I think it was my cry for help because I was so embedded within my addiction and-- no, I felt like I didn't have another way out. I didn't know how to ask for help. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And so when I think about my crimes as a juvenile, just the trajectory of how just, you know, petty crimes to maybe not so petty crimes, but gun sales to more violations of probation to led to, you know, a robbery that wasn't an armed property, I didn't have a knife or gun. But still it was a pretty significant robbery. I think that that time going to prison was my cry for help. You know, I just didn't want to do drugs and alcohol or live this life where I just felt really like in a sense like I wanted to die. Right. I talk to a lot of folks who were formerly incarcerated who say, you know, “I've reached that point where I didn't know what else to do. I'd rather go to prison than have to deal with the struggle out here, the suffering that happens out here.” And I think our prison is full of individuals who feel like they had no other Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 33 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 option. You know, because a lot of times when we grow up in this very patriarchal environment, especially for men to say, “I'm sad, I need help. I wanna change, but I don't know how,” because that's a sign of weakness to say like, “I feel emotional.” And for other men or even women to say, oh, they use these negative connotations. Like stop being-- you know, they relate it to words that are used for women and they just, we don't wanna feel that. So what do we do? Go out, commit a crime, go to prison. And I know I've had conversations with other men in prison and be like, “I just, I'd rather be here than out there.” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I know men who've gone… who are in prison and they, their date, their release date's coming up and they automatically like go after another inmate or they go after a guard and they commit another crime so they can stay longer. I never understood that when I was in prison and then I come home and I start doing this work and I'm like this place is harsh on us. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and there was even a time when I first left prison where I felt like [unclear] I can't get a job. I keep losing this job. You know, I'm sleeping on my sister's couch. You know, my daughter wants to hang out but I don't have money in my pocket. I was like, “Fuck I'd rather be back in prison than have to deal with this stuff.” Right. And I, you know, that was me in 2007 and that's the individual I could talk to right now. Who just got out. It's like. It's easier to live in prison than it is there. You know, you got strict rules and boundaries. But we understand that life. And when I committed my crime in 2004 and I committed the robbery, that was a cry for help. And I'll never say that prison saved my life because it didn't. But it gave me an understanding. Finally I was ready to do the work. You know, something happened all of a sudden where I'm like, I get out and I'm gonna try my best to stay out and I'm gonna be humble. And, you know, if I turned away a lot of friends when I came home from prison because as soon as I got out my neighborhood was like, “Hey, you want to hang out? You wanna do some—Let’s go partying!” For me to say no to the people that I've never said no to was the hardest thing. Right. And that was me facing patriarchy right on. I had a friend when I came home from prison, literally the day after, I hadn't heard from him the entire time I was a prison. He offered me a thousand dollars and an ounce of, of methamphetamines. Right. This was his way to show love his way. He wasn't trying to get me in trouble. He wasn't trying to set me up. But this is my understanding of this is how we take care of each other. And sure. As he's standing in front of me, he's offering me this. “You know, it's just to help you get back on your feet,” is what he said to me. And for me to say no in that moment, I knew that I was defying an entire system that was set up for me. ‘Cause he looked at me and he is like, “Okay, okay. Like, that's kind of weird.” You don't, you don't say no to this in this neighborhood. You don't say no in this culture. You don't say-- you don't deny this offering. But I denied it. And when I denied it, I defied the system that I knew well. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 34 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: And did that, did that sever that relationship? Leyva: It did. I've not talked to the guy ever since. This is fifteen years ago. Visintainer: Do you mourn those relationships that are gone? Leyva: I think there's an emotional and mental and in a way a spiritual transition that needed to happen. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean these just like-- I took care of them. They took care of me. On the outside. They didn't care for me when I was in prison. That's usually what happens. But I knew that once I denied that, if I needed help, he was gonna deny me. Right. Or there needed to be a reckoning of that. And by not hearing from him anymore, I knew that okay, my life. Yeah. You defied this thing and I kind of felt like, okay, my circle all of a sudden got real small. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I just shared today in my talk today, that the more healing one does, the more healing I did, the more work I did on myself, the smaller and smaller my circle gets. Right. Some people just will not accept you anymore unless you're doing what they're doing. As long as they feel like you need them and they need you because misery is old—the saying misery loves company, right? They don't know a lot of people in my community, a lot of people in other areas, they don't know what to do with healed or healing people. Right. And my circle got real, my circle's small to this day, my circle is real small and I think now I prefer it that way. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I feel safer. I feel more included. I seem more like it's easier for me to ask for help. It's easier for me to, to give help. Right. Because a lot of times when you're in the mix of misery, you're carrying the burdens of that too. And I still, I carry a lot of burdens on me ‘cause I got people coming home from prison every single day. People coming home from jail every single day. People relapsing and reaching out. I need help. I need a rehab, or I need a detox or I need something and, and to be of service rather than, you know, to be part of the solution rather than being a part of the problem. It's a, it is a heavy load to carry, but it's a lot lighter than carrying the load of my neighborhood when I denied that guy, my homeboy. I can't, I appreciate you, I love you and thank you for this offer, but I can't accept it. That all of a sudden put, you know, Martin-- the rumors started, Martin is oh, he must have snitched or he must Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 35 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 have done this or he must have done that. Or you know, all of a sudden there's speculation about who I am versus they can't just accept the fact that I want to change my life. Right. But yeah, it's that's a struggle that a lot of incarcerated people are thinking about when they're coming home. And a lot of formerly incarcerated are faced with when they walk outside the door. And they wanna change. You know? And this is why programs like the in the community college or the university are so important because we give people that visibility and understanding that there's nothing wrong with you. And I don't even wanna say there's something wrong with my community because it's a culture that's there, right? But we don't have to partake in that culture anymore. That I can still be me. I can still be aesthetically who I am. I can still understand that. And I don't have to code switch if I don't want to. But again, I don't have to feed into that, you know? And so yeah. We went from my first crime to this <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But it's all, it's all really interconnected because I think that people are committing crimes because we don't know what else to do with ourselves and we don't know how to ask for help and we don't know how to-- We're being denied resources or jobs and so we commit crimes. And you know, sometimes I remember getting paychecks, you know, I was doing construction for a while and I look at my paycheck and, you know, I just had my first daughter was born. I was like, this isn't enough money to pay for rent and food and all this stuff. So I'd go out and I'd sell little drugs and do a little this and all of a sudden I had a little extra money. Not like I was selling to try to get rich. I was selling to try to keep the lights on or try to, I want to provide. One of my daughters wanted, oh, this little bike is cool, my paycheck ain't enough, but you know, I could sell a little bit of this and then go get that bike. You know what I mean? It makes me feel-- I know it's not the right thing to do. I know now, but at the time it's like the joy of seeing my daughter have something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: The joy of seeing a family around Christmas and Christmas presents, knowing that it's gonna put a smile on their faces. You think I'm really caring about the feeling I had about selling drugs to get that money. Not, you know, and it's you know, could I do it now? Absolutely not. Right. ‘Cause I know there's harm being created, but yeah. Visintainer: That must have, that must be like a really difficult part of the journey going home and realizing, I guess is realizing that a home is not exactly the home that you're… it's not the same place that it was before you went to, I guess. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 36 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Or it is but you're not the same. Leyva: You're not the same. No, it's hard because it depends how we define home. Right? My home with my sisters and my mom, she unfortunately passed away four years ago. Home changed when she, when she died, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Home changed when I decided to stop being the identified patient, Right. Because in my home, everybody's worried about Martin. Everybody's worried about, he's in jail, he's on drugs, he's doing this, he's doing that. I was the identified patient. And when I stopped being the identified patient in my family, my family didn't know what to do with me, let alone my community. You know, my friends growing up, like all of a sudden he's different. He's-- you know there's a loss there, right? But also now looking at home, whether it's the family or the community, now that I can see home as a different thing, I can help create a better home for those around me. Right. Access to, oh, let me help you with your job resume so you can get a better job. Let me help you get into college. Whether it's a welding certification or a HVAC certification, a job that'll get you a better pay. Right. And you can have a record and still do this work. Like, understanding this is like now I can actually help mold a new home for people, including my home. ‘Cause my neighborhood in Santa Barbara is still my home. I live in San Marcos in a little neighborhood. That's considered my home too because it mirrors the same neighborhood I grew up in. Escondido, Ocean-- certain parts of Ocean[side], like these places around here. The struggle of my neighborhood is the struggle of these neighborhoods. They're not different. So I get to define and create what home is. Right. And I hope that makes sense. ‘Cause it to me it's like, I think that's an obligation I feel like I have. And I always tell formerly incarcerated folks that we have an obligation to create the change that we didn't have. Be the mentors we didn't have be the fathers, we didn't have be the uncles and the brothers and everything that we didn't have or the mothers or the sisters. You know what I mean? This is-- gender's important, but we get to define home now. Hopefully better. Right. It's a matter of whether the people around us want to accept it or not. <laughs> Yeah. You know what I mean? So. Visintainer: The, the last time that you went into prison, did you know when you were in prison last time that you weren't going back? Or was that something that you realized afterwards? Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 37 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 You wanna hear something pretty wild? I still don't know if I'm going back. Cause I'm not the individual that says I'm never going back to prison. Visintainer: Gotcha. Leyva: I'm not the individual who says I'm never gonna drink or use again. I just know that right now, today, I'm not gonna go back and I'm not gonna drink. I'm not gonna use tomorrow. I can't predict, I can't predict two days from now. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And so I live my life that way. Right. But I knew-- This is a whole conversation itself. I didn't know, I knew when I was in prison, I was like, you know, this is, I know what rules to follow. I know what rules to adhere to. I know what rules to, to press. Right. I knew how to discipline somebody if they crossed the rule or broke a rule. That was a, is a easy life for me. I think what was, I think what happened -- actually, I don't think -- I know what happened is I met a group of men this time in prison that I was listening to. These men who were like talking to me about feelings and emotions. They were talking to me about spirituality and the sweat lodge and praying. They were talking to me about critical pedagogy, like mass incarceration and the war on drugs and gang injunctions. And I was like, “What the hell are you talking about?” These are not words that I know. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Right. And then they would give me books to read and they would like I remember after again-- I remember asking if I can go to college and the prison counselor was like, no, because you have a write up. I don't even know why I was asking for college. I got a high school diploma. I was like, I just wanted to-- I knew other people were doing college on their bunks right. From their cells. And they denied me college right away. But I still got educated in there because I read Pedagogy of the Oppressed for the first time in prison. I read My Life Is a Sun Dance by Leonard Peltier. I read Fanon, Marx and Lennon and I read all these books in prison. I had no idea what they meant. But these men were trying to critically teach me in the belly of the beast, mass incarceration. We build these buildings, we create the labor force and all this stuff. And I was back then, knowing what I know now, right this second, back then I was like, “What the hell are you talking about?” But I was still reading it. I was still listening. I was still paying attention. And when I entered college for the first time, and I'm sitting there and in sociology, they're talking, well, mass incarceration, these laws and policies and all of a sudden I'm thinking about Mitch and Joe and Squeaks these men who already put these language in my head. And I was like, this is why I Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 38 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 gotta be critical. Right. And it all made sense. And I believe in the universe. It was the universe put that stuff in front of me. Even if it made no sense, it made sense later. Right. How did we even get here? <Laughter> But there, there is, right? I think this is super important because it's like we become, I knew I didn't know that I would never go back to prison. I still don't know. I didn't know that. I all I knew is that when I left prison, I didn't want to go back. How I was gonna do it? I don't know. But I also knew-- one advice my uncle gave me, who also I learned through observation about drug use and violence. My uncle told me a long time ago, I don’t even know, I mean thirty years ago, he told me, “When you get to prison,” ‘cause it was a matter of if it was a matter of when or, “When you get locked up, don't drink, don't use.” He always said, “Use that as a moment of clarity.” And so I took that to heart. So every time I've been incarcerated at any time, I've never drank or used in prison or jail. And I think this last time I spent years not drinking, not using, because it's easy in jail, in prison to use. And I think it just had this moment of clarity where I was like, “I don't want this.” And I had this guy, Mitch Bodner, who was one of my elders in prison. And he passed away this past year, last year. Early on in my sentence, he's like-- he's like, you remember pointing this finger at me and saying, “You don't belong here. There's something about you. You don't belong here.” And I got offended. I was like, “What do you mean? I mean I'm here. I got the same tattoo you got!” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, “I run with the same group you run, what do you mean I don't belong here?” And he mentored me from that day on. And he's just like, when you go home, you help the people. When you, you know, you gotta be there for your kids. You have to be a father. You have to, you know what I mean? He kept plugging me in with all this stuff. And for the beginning I was like, “You're full of shit old man.” Right. But he wasn't. He wasn’t. He knew what he was talking about. And I am friends with his son who's also formerly incarcerated. And as Mitch passed away, me and -- his name's Creighton Bodner -- I could see, I could see Mitch's wisdoms spewed out on him too. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I understand what Mitch was saying, like, people around you matter and they can, you take care of them and they'll take care of you. You take care of each other, you got an entire community of people who advocate for each other. And I learned that through some random dude I met in prison. So yeah. I didn't know I wanted to, I just knew, All I knew is I didn't wanna go back to prison. And so far I'm fifteen years successful. <laughs> Visintainer: Could we talk a little bit more about the mentors that you met? Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 39 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: So how did you meet them? Leyva: Well, Mitch and Rodeo Joe were part of the same subculture. I don't call 'em gangs anymore. Like, “Oh, you're part of a prison gang.” I was like, “I'm part of a prison subculture that kept me safe.” And they were both-- Rodeo Joe was an artist, is an artist. And Mitch was part of uh, he's kind of a revolutionary. And Mitch was really that one guy who was like the father-figure. Right. The guy who was like… mentored me around spirituality especially. And I always say, the sweat lodge and Native spirituality really is my practice today, it saved my life. Really. And he showed me songs and rituals and these things that, you know, I felt like got a father finally. Right? And Rodeo Joe was the, he's always reading and creating art. Reading and art. And he always-- he handed me books and said, “What do you think about this book?” And I… we'd have conversations about different books. He was like my, both of 'em were like my teacher. But Squeaks on the other hand, I talk about Squeaks quite a bit to folks cause Squeaks was an old Black man. And in prison you don't cross lines; drugs and cigarettes and even water. Right. Like, things you just don't do. And it's a funny story. And I've written this story before where it was easier for Joe and Mitch to be my mentors ‘cause they're part of my subculture. But for somebody like Squeaks who I always say, and I'm writing about this in my dissertation, where out of Squeaks, I've cultivated this idea of a cellblock intellectual. ‘Cause I remember sitting in my cell one day, the yard was open, We can exit our building, we can do everything. And I was reading The Four Agreements[: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom]. Ruiz, no not Ruiz, anyway, The Four Agreements, I don’t remember the author's name, um, Miguel Ruiz. I was reading The Four Agreements and I remember Squeaks came up to my cell just to the door and he said, he's like, “What are you reading?” And we kinda have a little exchange of eyeball exchange because, you know, he's Black and I'm Native and we just had to have this understanding. It was a really funny story. And I was like, Four Agreements. And he's like, “Oh, that's a good book. It's kind of a shitty read.” You know, <Visintainer laughs> like he started critically thinking like, “It's a crappy book, son! You know what I mean?” And he's the one who first handed me Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And he said, “You should read this book.” And what was it? Maybe he was, no, actually I think he handed me Leonard Peltier's book. And he's like, “Here, you should read this.” He starts telling me about the book. “Just to help you understand the place you're in.” I took the book and I said, “Cool, thanks.” Didn’t pay it no mind. And sure enough, as soon as I opened it, I started reading it, I didn't really understand it, but I knew because Leonard Peltier was also Native and in prison, I had a connection to Uncle Leonard, right? And like a week and a half, two weeks later, about a week and a half, I was walking Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 40 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 the yard and Squeak comes up to me, said, “What'd you think of that book?” And it was like, I knew that there was something there when I said, “That's pretty good.” And he started to started telling me about the book. Like he had it memorized. And from there he became my mentor. And nobody ever questioned the relationship between me and Squeaks and race because they knew it was about education. Wasn’t about drugs, it wasn't about food, it wasn't about anything illegal is about books. And nobody ever questioned the mentorship around literature in prison, everything else they would've. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. So there are certain ways for people in prison to interact across the racial lines then— Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Where that, where that dynamic is not present or not as present. Leyva: Definitely. Definitely. And I think that education is one and you know, you can talk to whoever you want to talk to, but we also know that, you know, Squeaks and I both knew and Squeaks was an old dude already. So he wasn't involved in politics even though he would definitely go head to head against the system. But the prison politics, he wasn't involved. But we also knew that if anything was ever happened amongst races, we would go against each other. We just knew that without a doubt. Right. What's interesting, and it makes it very important thing to note, is that even Miguel Ruiz's book, The Four Agreements, Pedagogy [of] the Oppressed,” even like the The Souls of Black [Folk], like all these books that I was reading in prison, they're all considered banned books. They're considered banned books out here. Right. And in the prison system, I can get-- Squeaks and Rodeo Joe, we can all get written up for having these books. And the more writeups we can get a sent to administrative segregation for literature. We can have our visitation privileges removed. Our commissary privileges removed, our job detail removed. Just for literature. And he always said, “Here, read this and don't get this book taken away from you.” And I never understood that, “Well, who's gonna take away this book?” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I had to learn about banned books when I came out here and I realized that every single one of those books I read was on a list that the prison system had. That if you get caught-- Pedagogy of the Oppressed had like a paper bag cover on it Didn't even say Pedagogy of the Oppressed on the outside. I remember this didn't happen to me, but I remember like books that would say, you know, Holy Bible on the outside, but on the inside it's like a whole other book. Right? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 41 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Yeah. Yeah. Leyva: And they strategically hid literature inside other literature. Danielle Steele and these fucking novels, these love novels that people would always read. A lot of times it was just the covers but the books on the inside were different. Of course people were reading like love books and stuff, but I can never get into that prison book <laughs>. But I understood banned books when I came out here and I began to read about banned books and I began to understand like I can, you know, I don't understand why it's just literature. But, you know, the Attica uprising and racial groups banding together is dangerous for the system. Right. They don't want us to band together. ‘Cause it would become, I always say it become like a union force. Right. And they don't want that. So they make it difficult and, and make it difficult for us to have these books. They make it punishable to have these books. Squeaks and Joe and Mitch and others knew that this was a thing. I didn't at the time, I just read the books and had conversations. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But that was my mentors and that, you know, I wholeheartedly to this day hold them in high regard. And I remember it was Mitch who said… he always said this whole thing and people said this old cliche too. He's like, “Make sure you burn your idols. Anybody you idolize be better than them. Never-- anybody comes in your life that is teaching you something. Make sure you learn it better than they have it.” And that's the goal too, when I mentor somebody, it's like, “Oh, Martin, I want to be just like you.” I'm like, “Why you wanna be like me? Be better. Go higher, go farther, help more people.” Do you know what I mean? It's like you always gotta, and that's what Squeaks and Mitch and Joe taught me. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And their mentorship was, is, is, and from my understanding, well one: I know Squeaks and Mitch have passed on and I think Joe is still alive. I'd love to get an interview with Joe. But yeah, that's the goal is just, you know, take their mentorship, their guidance, their love and amplify it. Visintainer: Yeah. That’s a good goal. Leyva: And that's what I feel like I'm doing. I think I'm paying them a lot of respect by doing the work I do right now. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 42 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Thank you. Thank you for talking with me a little bit about your background and how you kind of came to where you're at now. I was curious… let's see. What led you to North San Diego County? Leyva: Graduate school. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Graduate school. Which I never thought I'd do. Right. I’m the first male in my family to go to college, let alone get an associate's degree or bachelor's degree? I got my bachelor's degree in Santa Barbara at Antioch University. Cost too much money. But Dr. Chris Bickel, who teaches here was teaching at San Luis Obispo at the time, encouraged me to go to graduate school. And it just so happened he just started teaching out here too. The same year. I came out as the same year. I think it was here about a year and a half before I came out here. But North County, San Diego was home because of graduate school and because it's a critical-- Cal State San Marcos was a very critical department of sociology, you know, they teach justice studies rather than criminology. Justice studies for me I knew for a fact when I got my bachelor's degree in psychology, I was like, “I wanna be a MFT or social worker.” And then I was like, what brought me here was the idea that they were gonna pick apart rational choice here. Cause I always heard rational choice, like, people choose to drink, people choose to commit crime, people do this. And I was like, Dr. Bickel, Dr. [Xuan] Santos were like, there's systems that make-- that create this playing field that's not fair, just. There's, people don't just choose to wake up like, I'm gonna commit a crime. No. It's like your access to jobs, your access to money, your access to all these things is denied. So then we commit crimes. Right. I remember, and I did this -- really quickly -- I did this in my neighborhood: I did a little experiment in my neighborhood in Santa Barbara. I stood on the corner for like four hours, four or five hours. Hung out on the corner. In about every seven minutes there was a cop that drove by. And then I counted the liquor stores in my neighborhood. Nine block radius, eleven liquor stores. And I remember hearing a judge once tell me when I got in trouble for alcohol. They're like, you know, “You’re nothing but an alcoholic.” You're, you know I don't know what the judge said, but I was like, okay, you're blaming me for my alcoholism. Who's blaming you for allowing so many liquor store in my neighborhood? “Oh, you're always continuing to getting pulled over by the police. You must be trouble.” I said, “Why is there then a cop driving through my neighborhood every seven minutes?” Cause they're looking for something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So you want-- I want to be accountable for the things I do, yes. But this school brought me out here. I came out here to this school because they're gonna help me hold the system accountable for the things they're doing too. The long, long que-- a long answer to that, why I'm out here, right. <laughter> Sorry. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 43 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 No, it's all good. And it's a um, I think it's a really good segue into some questions I wanted to ask. So do you believe in prison-- excuse me, prison abolition? Leyva: That's a loaded question for me because I do, I believe that we have, there's a better way. I think there's really good alternatives to incarceration. And the only reason I am not one-hundred percent sold on abolition work is because we live in a society that has not dismantled patriarchy. And so, even like Feminist Thought Theory says we should shut down the prison system, or feminist abolition work, I love it. It's beautiful work. But if we don't teach men and women to dismantle patriarchy, how are we going to open up the doors to prison for men and for women? Cause they feed into it as well. Gender, like, I would say gender’s super important. We can't open up a prison or, or dismantle the prison system where people haven't dismantled sexism, racism, classism, heterosexism. Right. These integral parts of patriarchy. Are we ready for that? I think that unfortunately I do, I've met people in prison who I've like, I hope I don't know, I hope you don't get out now, but I think everybody can be rehabilitated. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I don't think we have a prison system that's doing a-- not even a halfway decent job. I wish we didn't have prison systems. I wish we had alternatives to incarceration because people do commit crimes and people commit heinous crimes. And I think that we have to be careful saying we want to abolish a prison system. I don't think we need a prison system at the magnitude that it is. You know, I don't think that there's 2.3 million people in the United States that are bad and dangerous people. I think that there's a small, maybe even less than five percent of that number that maybe should be in a facility of some sort, some rehabilitative community, some therapeutic community -- we don't have to call it a prison -- who need real help. Right. But I don't think we can abolish a prison system unless we dismantle patriarchy first. I don't think we can do it. And I've been there, I've lived inside the prison system. I've lived inside the jails, I lived inside the violence enough to know that if we abolish this system, especially coming from feminist theory, we're not ready for. Right. <shrugs> It's also a goal though. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: How do we begin to do the work on patriarchy to set people up so they can have a successful reentry. Right. So I'm not one-hundred percent sold on abolition, even though I do push a lot of abolitionist thought. You know, I mean, we have better, we can have better systems knowing what we know now. But I think we need to really focus on dismantling patriarchy before we open up the doors. Visintainer: Yeah. I think, you know, generally speaking, people have a hard time envisioning a world without a prison system, without police, you know, things like that. Without-- and I guess maybe the question that Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 44 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 I want to ask in light of your answer to your last question is without patriarchy as well, people have trouble envisioning a world without that. Even if it's all around us and we don't even necessarily see it all the time, right. So what does a society without patriarchy look like? Leyva: I think it looks like-- I do often think about this. I think a, a society without patriarchy looks a little bit more empathetic and caring, a little bit more understanding, a little bit more -- very much actually -community-based approaches to everyday things that happen. Arguments and fights and misunderstandings, miscommunications. Right. That if we… I think patriarchy, there's a response to it. Right. Anger, yelling or violence or these gender roles, right. These gender roles of what women are supposed to do, what men are supposed to do. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans folks, all these folks, like all these people that live within our society. Elderly, young people, disabled, able-bodied, like the intersections of all those things, race, class, gender, ethnicity. That we need a world without patriarchy is an understanding that everybody here should be on the equal level playing field. And when something or somebody commits something against a group, right. This is the importance of restorative justice. This is the importance of conflict resolution, of alternative to violence, like all these great fields. I think that if we started teaching this stuff in literally preschool or pre-k[indergarten], first grade, second grade, third grade, all the way up has a curriculum that's based around feelings and emotions and understanding. I think we'll get to a generation someday who's less violent. Less violent, more empathetic, more caring, more… sees the world completely different. Right. Maybe this is a big hope and dream of mine. Right. Maybe this is something that's maybe never gonna happen. But I always look at it as, you know, it's always worth the shot because what we have right now ain't working for shit, <laughs> you know what I mean? It's not working. And, you know, we gotta understand all the intersections of single parents or, or children growing up without parents or the foster care system or, you know, the world we live in with you know, sexual exploitation of young people and like a world that’s a really harsh place. Right. But if we don't start teaching this stuff at a young age of how to really see each other, care about each other, you know, but I think that uh, but I do think, I think we can grow up in a world where there's less patriarchy or more defined like, you know, I'm not saying that being masculine or being-- there's something wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just our response to things doesn't have to be so like, harsh, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We can have disagreements and a conversation after. We can have a disagreement and space apart from each other, then come back and talk about it. Like, we can still have our feelings and emotions, but we teach people how to dismantle their reaction. I think little by little a world without patriarchy is more caring, you know? And it doesn't have to be loving. Nobody has to love each other. Right. But we have to care about each other. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 45 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: We're in it together. Covid taught us that. <laughs> We're in it together. Right. So yeah. Visintainer: What's your future plans for Project Rebound? Or where would you like to see it head? Leyva: I think my future plan is the same future plan as a lot of the coordinators and directors across the state. But just to see it in every CSU. To see every incarcerated person have the access to associates degrees when they come home, they can, if they want, can come to a CSU and be successful and grow as an individual. I also would love to see Project Rebound here and other places. Cause we, every time we do somebody does something at their Project Rebound, we share the information. Right. I'd like to see it become a hub for not just students, but community members come get their records expunged, come and find jobs or resources, come get food. And what we say in the office is come in and shoot the shit. Let’s come in and talk. Some people gotta get stuff off their chest and it's a hub where we just see each other and care about each other. Right. And right now, that's what we kind of have down there. We're just kind of building on it. It's a very small community. We want more community members that are students, but we want a bigger community of people around the university to say like, Project Rebound is supporting and helping us and that we're getting the help we need. Right. I think I see the, the work in the future for Project Rebound that it's just a place to come in and grow. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Student or not, you know what I mean? And you know, and we get, I get this idea from students who are not formally incarcerated, but are system impacted. When a student comes into my office, or, and I'm not gonna say my office comes into the office and they say, “Oh, my dad's incarcerated and I don't know what to do.” And we're sitting there, me or Lawrence or one of our formerly incarcerated students to sit there to talk to the student about what they're feeling, what they're going through. I see that as a community space to heal. Right. So that's where I see the future. It's just a place to grow and heal and be seen and cared for. Visintainer: Yeah. As you know, I spend some time working around the corner from you there and from my perspective you have a community there. I see a lot of engagement. I see a lot of students talking with you and it's pretty cool. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. It is really nice. Especially post-- pre-Covid. I mean, I was trying to, I was trying to sit there in little desks and do work and there'd be like ten people in that small space and I'm like, I gotta put some earphones on or something cause <laughs> yeah. I'm trying to get work done here. Right. It is, there is a community built there and it's nice to see it come back pretty quickly now that we're back on campus and yeah, I'm grateful for that space. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 46 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Yeah. Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't? Leyva: No. No. I think I really have appreciated this interview, this conversation. I wouldn’t even call it an interview. It's a, it's a conversation because I think-- I know I'm super grateful for this opportunity to be in this academic space and this community around people that I love being around. And I mean, as a formerly incarcerated person, again, feel obligated to continue helping people because in a way I'm really helping myself. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, sometimes I feel like I'm overpaid. Like I can go home even though I take a lot of the stress home with me or the emotional labor home with me. But I also know that every day I'm putting my best foot forward and I'm doing the work. And that pays homage to Joe and Mitch and Squeaks and others. ‘Cause I still remember the day I walked out of prison, the faces I left behind. Yeah. And this is my obligation to those men there. Not just the men, but all incarcerated people across this globe because incarceration is a global issue. You know, we just have the biggest one in the United States, but it is a global issue. Right. So, but I think question wise, or I think I'm good. Visintainer: All right. Well, I really appreciate your time and the conversation, so thank you very much. Leyva: You're welcome. Thank you. Visintainer: All right. I'm gonna go ahead and turn off the interview. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 47 2023-05-03 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Leyva, Martin. Interview transcript, October 10, 2022 Description An account of the resource Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community. Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Martin Leyva Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos -- Project Rebound Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Palomar College -- Transitions Program Parolees Prison-industrial complex Santa Barbara City College -- Transitions Program Transitions (Program) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) 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Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rich Link OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LinkRich_BixbyMarianne_LortonGreg_DownieJudith_2017-07-09.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Link, Rich, Mary Anne Bixby, and Greg Lorton. Interview July 9, 2017. SC027-054 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Home brewing -- California -- San Diego County Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (San Diego, Calif.) Rich Link Mary Anne Bixby Greg Lorton Judith Downie mp3 1.0:|11(14)|23(17)|36(13)|61(3)|79(10)|91(9)|104(2)|122(2)|136(14)|155(8)|170(5)|191(4)|218(5)|232(15)|246(15)|258(12)|273(2)|286(13)|303(18)|320(9)|334(13)|365(2)|386(5)|399(7)|416(3)|440(12)|464(2)|492(3)|511(16)|543(14)|575(11)|602(6)|626(11)|650(8)|674(4)|697(10)|721(7)|738(7)|762(13)|779(7)|798(6)|814(11)|824(10)|851(13)|877(11)|903(15)|925(6)|943(9)|971(12)|996(8)|1014(12)|1041(7)|1074(4)|1086(12)|1108(15)|1128(4)|1145(2)|1161(14)|1188(2)|1204(14)|1215(16)|1233(10)|1253(8)|1276(16)|1294(4)|1306(7)|1343(10)|1371(5)|1400(17)|1437(2)|1456(3)|1486(11)|1514(10)|1531(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/be8d74a35bca81c3d4728150a1225ccc.mp3 Other audio English Rich Link, Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton are all early members of Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (QUAFF), a San Diego area homebrewing group.&#13 ; &#13 ; In this interview, Link, Bixby, and Lorton discuss their introduction to craft beer, early home brewing experiences, QUAFF, various local breweries, mead, and womens’ participation in homebrewing. None have worked in the industry professionally, but all are certified beer judges and Lorton and Bixby also judge mead competitions.&#13 ; &#13 ; Link wrote for the Celebrator Beer News magazine on the Southern California beer scene and his experiences visiting European breweries. He served several terms as QUAFF President. He is a certified beer judge.&#13 ; &#13 ; Lorton served as QUAFF Newsletter editor and President. (He has provided a separate oral history.)&#13 ; &#13 ; Bixby, with her late husband, Horace, switched from wine making to beer making. She belonged to the SDSS (San Diego Suds Sorority) which was a women-only subgroup of QUAFF.&#13 ; &#13 ; Recording was made on the front exterior patio of Burning Beard Brewery in El Cajon ; there are periods of traffic noise which interfered with recording. Judith Downie: Okay. It's July 9th, 2017. This is Judith Downie interviewer, with Rich Link and Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton, all QUAFF members, former officials of QUAFF, for oral history about their experiences with homebrewing and QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity home brewers club.). It should be able to pick up everybody. So basically, you know, you can kind of look at those questions I gave you. You can start talking maybe from, how did you start homebrewing? What got you interested? Rich Link: Well, I liked beer. And I saw something on TV one day and I saw something in a liquor store and it had a recipe and I said, “You can actually make beer at home?” And then I just looked in the yellow pages and there was Wine Art (supply shop) at the time over here on Fletcher Parkway (El Cajon). And, uh, that was in 1980 as I recall it. And at that time, homebrewers essentially made a five-gallon batch with a can of malt and four pounds of corn sugar, holding back a cup of corn sugar for bottling. For the bottling. And it was okay. It was as actually better than, you know, the mass-produced beers here in the United States ‘cause you know, we just couldn't take that stuff anymore. 90% of what I would drink would come from England and Germany. And at that time those were really good beers. Downie: And where were you finding these beers? Link: Yeah, in liquor stores. Yeah. Like that time, I think we had like Liquor Barn and some of the little hole-in-the-walls would have some good imports, but you know, it was like some beers were like $10, $12 a six pack and that was pretty expensive. You could make about two and a half cases of beer for about $10 or $15., seems like. Yeah. You know, I remember my first batch very, very clearly. It was a Pale Ale and it got all funked up with the yeast and it was cidery and it's like, “Okay, but you know, there's still something behind there that tastes really good.” It actually had good malt flavor and some hop flavor. Had no idea what the hops were because we just bought a bag that said ‘boiling hops’ and another one that said ‘finishing hops’. (Laughter.) Greg Lorton: But you made it. Link: Yeah. And it was cool. And I remember when the fermentation took off and you'd see the head on the beer. It's like, “Wow, that's pretty cool.” Smelled amazing. Bottling sure was a pain in the butt. Mary Anne Bixby: It always is. Lorton: Yeah. That's the one thing that pushes me towards Rich and uh, yeah. Mary Anne, what about you and Bix (Horace Bixby)? Bixby: Well, my first experience with home brewed beer was in college and it wasn't my own, it was friends' and the guys had made this beer that they had in mason jars. It was all cloudy. so, it was very yeasty. That part I remember very well and it was awful. It was awful. I think all I could say was give me a glass of wine. Lorton: Were you a, you were a chemistry major? Bixby: At one time. Lorton: Okay. At Purdue? Bixby: At Purdue. Lorton: Okay. Bixby: But, when I got married, we were winemakers and we started out with Wine Art in Chicago and they had these plans where you could make four wines and they had the classes and… Wine Art at that time was, like early seventies, not into beer that much. They had some cans of malt on the shelf, but nowhere near what we have available now with yeasts and the hops and so on. So Bix and I were making wine and he did try beer once but it started exploding in the basement. So I think we dumped most of it out. Link: I can’t tell you how many times I've heard that story about exploding beers. “Oh yeah. My uncle used to make beer. It used to explode.” Man, I never had one explode. Lorton: Yeah, I would wake up in the morning, go out in the garage and “Hmm. Smells like malt.” Bixby: Oh oh. Lorton: You look at the shelf and there's stuff dripping down, a wet spot with bottles there and there's one bottle that looks a little shorter than the others. And yeah, it blew apart and the top sank down. Yeah, I had. And it wasn't until, you know, I never had that with an extract brew. But once I started all grain brewing… Lorton: I never had a bad extract brew. I never had great extract brew. But once I went to all grain, I had some really good ones. Some pretty bad ones. (Laughter.) So now when was this all this wine making stuff? Bixby: Well, in the 70s and then we moved here to California in ‘75 and we started with the Wine Art again with making wine with their program. And then all this stuff started appearing on the shelves and Bix got interested in the beer, and before you know it, he was making beer and also we joined QUAFF. And that went that direction totally. I think we only made a few wines after that ; it was all beer. Downie: So, my understanding is that Audrey Eckblom and Owen were kind of the nucleus of the startup QUAFF. But I have not been able to reach Audrey and I know she's in Nevada and I tried to call her and I've tried writing her and don't get a response. So, what do you remember about beer in Wine Crafts? I know she took it over when Wine Crafts decided to close the location and she became Beer and Wine Crafts. But you know anything about her history as a brewer or anything like that? Lorton: Yeah, I moved down here in 1988 and I was living in Carlsbad, but that was the only place to go. And they opened a second shop in San Marcos. Probably in the, I'm thinking, uh, mid-nineties… Link: Mid-nineties, something like that, 1995. Lorton: Yeah, it was you know, I can show you exactly where it is in San Marcos. Link: I remember it. Lorton: But I mean that was a lot closer for me. Yeah. It was near Bent Avenue. Bixby: Well before Audrey and Owen had the place, there was, it was owned by somebody named Peter, I think it was Peter, his name. And he I guess got out of the business, I don't know, cause then it was Audrey and Owen and she was pretty, she was really very helpful. Link: She used to make wine. She was actually an employee there. And I remember the girl that was one of the owners, she had an accent. I don't remember her name, but it was shortly after that that they, Owen and Audrey bought the place from her. Now Owen was actually a beer judge. He, he knew beer. Bixby: I didn’t know that. Link: Yeah. Now, I don't know about any accreditation. It certainly wasn't with the AHA (American Homebrewers Association), but, he was labeled a beer judge. So yeah. I was a pretty good beer judge myself from college days. Downie: Well, accreditation would have been maybe a little bit later because it was Carter's era that, even home brewing was legal again. So, you really couldn't probably do accredited judging until, you know, you'd had a few years being legal again. Link: I don't remember when the AHA started, but I think the legalization was in ‘79. Yeah. And that's when the bill by Alan Cranston. Yeah. Downie: He signed it and Carter signed it in ‘78. Link: The US bill started by a Senator in Wisconsin. Downie: And then everything winds up having to come down to state level and then county level and city level. Lorton: But California was at the forefront of that kind of stuff. So. Yeah. Downie: And so Rich, you were telling Greg that you were the third QUAFF president who was president number one and number two? Link: So, president number one was Greg Schwaller and so now I wasn't there. So a lot of what I get is from Bob Whritner. Lorton: And I have an email from Greg Schwaller going the fact that your part of that where he was, you know, kind of you're remembering what the original, he was the one who came up with the name of QUAFF. Bixby: Interesting. Lorton: And he was citing a verse from Poe, Edgar Allen Poe as the source. And what they were doing is they were thinking, you know, all, most homebrew clubs have some clever pun-related acronym. And, you know, they felt that, well, QUAFF is, let's think of something that QUAFF sounds like a beer-drinking term. So, let's come up with some words that fit that. So that's where Quality Ale Fermentation Fraternity came from. Unfortunately, Bob gave me some stuff that documented all of that. It was like the originals. I gave it to Peter (Zien) and I'm not sure if it still exists. I meant to ask Peter when I last saw him, but you know, it actually has the legal yellow pad where it has the names of the… Downie: Is this is Peter Zien? Bixby: Oh, you need to ask him. Lorton: Yeah. I have to ask Peter. Yeah. Peter Zien, (several people talking) you know, I meant to ask him. Judith and I talked with Peter a couple of weeks ago and I forgot then I (inaudible). Peter's birthday party, I forgot. Link: That was a busy day. Lorton: Yeah. And I'm hoping they still have it. Downie: Yeah, I've still got the oral history to arrange with Peter and Vicky, so I'll put that on my list to ask as well. Lorton: Yeah, I guess Greg Schwaller now, lives, I think at Three Rivers, which is near Sequoia. At least that was where he was I think 2010 or so. Link: Okay. Bixby: Gosh, that's a long time ago, yeah. Link: I thought Bob, last I talked with Bob, he thought he was up Montana or Wyoming or something like that, but who knows. Lorton: Yeah, I can send you the email that has that. Downie: That would be lovely, yeah, that'd be a real touchstone for QUAFF’s history. Lorton: It would because I, I never met him…met Greg. Bob is, Rich and Bob or someone Bixby: Who was after you? Link: After me? Skip (Virgilio). Lorton: Who was before you? Link: Paul Wesley (second QUAFF president). So I remember when QUAFF was starting because Owen tried to get me to go to the meetings. At that time, I wasn't really interested in, it wasn't all that interested in joining or being part of things. So… Bixby: A loner type, huh. Link: Well yeah. But I do remember him telling me, you know, we're having a meeting down at, it was Old Columbia (Karl Strauss brewery). That's what everyone called it back then. And it was before Chris (Cramer) really wanted to stress the Karl Strauss part of it. And then I still didn't want to go. I mean, their beer wasn't all that great. Why would I want to go all the way downtown? Downie: How much was gas a gallon then? Link: Yeah, yeah, 30 cents. But then, you know, like I said, Paul Wesley followed Greg. And Paul lived out here in Lakeside, and then Owen and Audrey kept working on me and working on me. And then finally they convinced me to go to a meeting at Callahan's (Pub &amp ; Brewery). At the original Callahan's, this was in 1990. Bixby: That's your first time you went? Link: Uh-huh. And, you know, after like two to three meetings, you know, Paul pretty much recruited me to take over. In those days you needed someone, you know. And so, he kind of felt that I was trustworthy and knew some things. But the club at that time was, I mean we had it from, most of the guys were, like I talked about earlier, the extract corn sugar brewers who are really interested in making liquid alcohol for as cheap as they could make it. Link: And cheap was like the number one priority, truly. And I'm not trying to just make fun of these guys, but that was it. Yeah. They can make 10 cent pints of beer, man, they were in heaven. But we also had guys like Vinnie Cilurzo, and John Thomas and Bob Whritner and Greg Schwaller, some of the guys who really knew what they were doing, you know. So that was pretty cool. And we'd have a little corner and bring in beers and taste them and give remarks and stuff. And that was all pretty cool. But there was a great deal of the club at the time that was not interested in going beyond, you know, the kit type mentality. And I was. In fact most of the guys had never even heard of the AHA. That was kind of my goal is get involved with the AHA more. Link: And that was when we had our first club-only competition and it was a pale ale and Whritner, Bob Whritner, was our representative and he got a second place on the national level in that competition. That kind of lit everyone up cause “Look, we do make good beer and we can get some recognition, let's go for it.” And things got pretty exciting at that time and, beer kinda got better. And you know, we had recently come across liquid yeast, you know, a couple of years earlier, it seemed like it was ’87, ‘86, something like that. So beer was getting much better and a lot more fun to brew. I remember making great wort, just absolutely great man, this is the best beer I've ever made. And then throwing in the packet of yeast and when it comes out and like crap. It's just very disappointing. And then Wyeast (yeast laboratory) was the first pack of liquid yeast I remember. In smack packs. Lorton: Is Bob still around here? Are you still in contact with him? Link: A little bit here and there. They spend, I'd say 90% of their time up in June Lake, but they do have the place in Rancho Bernardo. Lorton: Yeah, I mean Bob would be a good guy to talk to you. I mean, he's really a colorful guy. I think he's an ice scientist or something like that who would go on cruises to research the Arctic. And alcohol is not permitted on a ship, but you've got a bunch of scientists who are really creative, so yeah. Bixby: Better than prison brew. Lorton: Yeah. He would tell me about the breweries or the places to get beer in Tromsø, Norway. You know, some of the story, and Bob is such a funny guy. Somebody was talking about Bob at Peter's party too, it may have been you. Link: Yeah, it was probably me. We had dinner with them and Skip and Mary last summer. Okay. About a year ago. Yeah, he's 80 years old now. He's getting along a little slower as people do. Yeah. Downie: Honestly, you can remember, remember what happened. That's it sounds like he's probably, yeah. So he's definitely on my list of people to approach. Mary Anne. When did you join QUAFF, you and Bix? Bixby: I think it was like ‘92 or so but I remember going to meetings at La Jolla Brewing on Fay Street. (Avenue, La Jolla) Link: Yeah, we moved there. Because Callahan's was too slow, too small. Bixby: So you went from Callahan’s to La Jolla and then back to Callahan’s. Link: Yeah. And then the PB (Pacific Beach) Brewhouse. Lorton: I remember my first meeting was at PB Brewhouse, but it was there because Skip was the brewer there and he was doing a tour. And that was probably May or June of ‘94 because I was lucky enough to win best in show for the AFC (America’s Finest City home brewers competition). And so they said, yeah, why don't you come to a meeting? But I think the normal meeting place at that point was La Jolla Brewing on Fay Street. Yeah. Bixby: That's where I first started. Yeah. That little back room. Isn't that where you gave your slide presentation on? Link: No, the slide was at the expanded Callahan's. Well, when we first started at Callahan's, it was just that one room and we couldn't close it off to the public, you know, so we'd have our meeting and the public and it was not, just not. Downie: Not when you are passing out beer. Link: Well, and the club started to grow. I mean we would have, you know, a lot of nights we'd have 15 or 20 people, but then there was one year at the Del Mar Fair where it got a lot of visibility and the next meeting there was like 40 people and it was like standing room only. It's like, wow, we can't do this anymore. And, and, and La Jolla Brewing Company was just opening and they had a nice big back room. It's like October of 1990. And, so then we moved there. They only lasted a year, a year and a half. And Callahan's had expanded so they had a room that they could close off for us. So that was nice. So we went back there and then, then PB Brew House had, but we actually met in the brewery as I recall it. Didn't we? Lorton: I remember Skip. That first meeting, that was the only QUAFF meeting that I went to that was PB Brew House. But Skip had a tour. Link: They weren't there very long. Lorton: No. And Skip was, he was the president at the time and you know, showing how everything was done. That's the only, only time. And again, that was May or June of 1994. Bixby: Was Dion (Hollenbeck) after Skip then? Link: Yes. Lorton: I think Ted Newcomb. Link: Oh, Ted. Bixby: Oh, Ted. And then Skip then Dion? Lorton: Yeah. And then Todd. Link: I think Ted was a one year. Lorton: Yeah, I've got a list of who is president after from Skip on. So, when I get home I'm now going to pull it out (inaudible). Downie: Wow. Yeah. That's so great. At what point would you say QUAFF actually formalized, ‘cause you said you were kind of recruited into the presidency and it sounds like maybe you kind of recruited Skip to be your relief at some point. Link: It’s kind of still that way. (Laughter) Bixby: Are we really formalized? Link: What does that mean? Downie: Bylaws… Lorton: You know, Rich will go to the restroom. Okay quick. Let's decide on president. Rich. Oh, it's unanimous. Come back from the restroom. “Hey Rich, congratulations you’re president.” Downie: The moral there is don't leave the room. Lorton: Yeah. You know when I became president and Peter was the president, it was Todd Fitzsimmons then Peter and then me. But it was always the case as well. You know, Peter's kind of taking over the stuff that Todd was doing. So Peter is kind of a natural guy for that and I think I kind of fell into the same thing. And Harold Gulbransen was after me and so he got in there and then Bob McKay. Bixby: My impression has always been, the president has always fallen into that position. It's like, man… Link: I think there was one year. Bixby: Willing to do the job to, to pick up, you know, to take up the reins and go for it. And, and we've been very, very fortunate in my tenure. I mean, I mean my time with QUAFF to have some really good people dedicated. Link: But there was one year where we had a vote at a club vote. Bixby: Oh, you remember that, who was this then? Link: Well, I think that was Skip’s second term, but we dodged the bullet. And I think that thought, cause I was, when I handed it off to Skip, you know, we would have essentially closed board meetings and I said “I nominate Skip.” And that was pretty much it. Yeah. Yeah. And then something came up about voting for it, and it was hard to, hard to argue on that point, but we did. But boy, there was something close. I remember that was something that was averted. Link: Yeah, but since then I remember, I think when Todd was president, there was some kind of czar-ish directive. (Laughter) Bixby: Czar-ish, it that what you said? Lorton: Well we, you know, when I was on the board from the time I was the newsletter editor from ‘96 on and ‘til I became president, but it was always a board decision on what the officers were going to be rather than, and we would put it up to the meeting if, you know, the board has decided that this should be the slate of officers. Does anybody have any objection or, you know, I think, I can't recall if we actually said all those in favor, say aye and everybody would go “Give me another beer, aye.” You know? Downie: Then everybody had an opportunity to say something, so it wasn't completely closed or anything. Lorton: Well, and the other thing is that the people who were really interested in how the club was running were the board members. Bixby: That's true. Yeah. No, that's a good statement. Yeah. Downie: A process of natural selection. Bixby: Yes, and those who are actually doing most of the work. Lorton: I think that’s the way it continues now. Bixby: Yes, and we've tried to get more newer board members, we want QUAFF to continue. Downie: Right. Bixby: And we've been throwing it out there over and over, you know, but people are reluctant to, they have their own lives. This is not, you know, like any group. It's a volunteer kind of position. So try to get some of these young people, we have, we have several very great new ideas and so on. I love that part. I just want it to continue. I love QUAFF so much. Lorton: You know, you haven't been a one of the senior officers. Bixby: Never, not yet. Link: (Showing photograph) So that was the original room at Callahan. Downie: That's wonderful. Bixby: Can I see that? Lorton: I’ve got to see that too. Link: And then they added on that section right there where they could actually rope it off. Lorton: Yeah, I remember we had one meeting. There was a point at which we were kind of, we kind of hit a minimum and I remember Harold Gulbransen was giving a talk and it was in October and he was competing with the World Series which was on the TV screen behind him. Bixby: Which was hard for him as one eye was probably on the Series and one eye on the…That’s really great. You have a date on the back too? Lorton: This guy is much more… Link: I would say this is probably about 92-ish. This is not like the photos when we were kids that had the date on the back or on the margins. Downie: Well of course I am trying to work with Lee (Doxtader) at Callahan’s and he can probably give me some dates. I would hope he would remember QUAFF’s presence. Bixby: Was Lee around that long ago? Oh my, (another photograph) well that's… Downie: Chris with Karl Strauss. Bixby: Yeah. Yeah. I remember one of those is a beer dinners they had. I actually sat at the table with Karl and his wife. It was kind of fun. Bixby: I think they still have the same chef. Link: You know, I think so. Bixby: Gunther. Downie: You even remember his name. Bixby: Good food! Link: I knew I had a picture. Bixby: Yeah. That's great. Downie: So. the pictures are wonderful. I mean that would be something that I would be interested in digitizing, giving you copies of the digital files. Link: Most of those are pre-digital, so they're just going to be… Downie: Negatives floating around, if you still have the negatives. Link: They’re somewhere. Yeah, it's tough. Downie: It is. I'm going through my parents’ things and my mother was, you know, a historian at heart and I actually, when I was emptying out the house, I found up on the very highest shelf in the entry hall closet, so, of course that's where the heat all rises. Six eight-millimeter films, pre-sound. My parents' wedding day. My cousins, there's actually some of me, I took them to ScanDiego and they were able to salvage pretty much everything and digitize them. So, I have to give my family, you know, pictures, you know, the films on a DVD and say, here you go. And if anybody, I filled in what I knew what I could recognize and some of them I had to kind of guesstimate the date saying, well, okay, I'm in there. So, I know that had to be this year, but I'm not in that one and this cousin looks younger, so it was probably a couple of years earlier. And I've asked the family, of course, you know, probably none of them have actually stopped and taken the time to look at the DVDs. If I put them online like in Dropbox and link them and said, here, go look at these and you know, give me some feedback. They'd probably do that. But you know, a lot of people don't have DVD players even anymore. Link: DVD? Downie: Yeah, I do have the online digital files. Link: That’s our media now. Downie: Yeah, for me. I've got DVD player and stuff. Bixby: (to Lorton) Which one did you get? Lorton: Get Thee to a Nunnery. (beer name) Bixby: I’m telling you, that is going to be one of my new favorites. Link: Did you try the English (inaudible)? Lorton: Oh, the Banksy? Link: No, the (inaudible). Lorton: No I didn’t. Link: What was it, something about all night or midnight or something. Down Through the Night? Bixby: We'll wait for you if you go get a beer. Loron: I'm just going to say… Link: Well now you can talk about me… Lorton: Let me check on my record to see if I... Link: Quite frankly, there were a lot of QUAFF members at that time that didn't like what I was doing and they stopped coming. But I think it was the right thing to do to make QUAFF more.... Bixby: What years were you in? Link: I was president in 1990. So for two years. Lorton: Yeah. I had the same experience. Bixby: I must have this come in on the end of you. I don't remember being displeased. Link: Well, I think people like us, we're happy with the direction it’s going. But the guys that were making the 10 cent pints, were not. Bixby: Oh, there is a different mentality. When you talk to people across the, yeah, it's a different mentality. Lorton: I mean there was a group, they were complaining, “Oh, you guys are too focused on competition.” Bixby: But it was, I never thought it was, so much as focus on competitions is focusing on bettering your craft is what it was. And so the competitions were feedback. I always looked at it in a totally different way. Lorton: Well, it depends on your perspective ‘cause I agree totally with you. Link: But, there were a lot of members even after the exodus in my period, there were still a lot of members thought we were too fixated on competitions. And I would just tell them don't worry about it. Yeah. Downie: You don't have to participate. It can be a goal for some. Bixby: Yeah, yeah. Link: Just learn from it. Come and enjoy it. What did you want? Bixby: Another Nun. Lorton: Let me know what that British beer was Rich that you said if I had… Link: Oh, it’s Down through the Night, a British Strong. Lorton: Oh okay, now I haven’t had that. Bixby: You know, I live so close, I should have had everything here. Lorton: You know, getting drunk has no appeal to me. Bixby: No, no, no, no, no. You know, that's not the point. Lorton: I know a lot of people who, “Oh yeah,” like get, well, I mean, but I'm not one of them. Bixby: You get drunk, you can't taste another good beer. Lorton: Yeah, I get headaches the next morning. You know, if it's too much, the bed starts spinning around. Bixby: It’s been a long time since that happened. Lorton: I was just going to say, that's when I was a wine person. Downie: So, Mary Anne, tell me about Mead Day and the celebration at your house. Bixby: You know I cannot remember the first time I did it. You’re kind of, like have some trust you know, in your reminisces. Lorton: The unfortunate thing is a lot of my memory is actually in the newsletters that I did. And I don't know if my newsletters predate mead day and I'm trying to remember where else we were. I told Judith that Frank Golbeck came to one of our mead days a few years ago. Bixby: But I'd had them before Frank came along. Lorton: They were quite, I don't know how, I don't remember. It just seems like a long time we have done this. And it's the national mead day, which is the first Saturday in August, which is kind of hot in El Cajon usually, which is an understatement. But sometimes it rained a couple times, but other than that… Lorton: I told her about Death Mead Day. Downie: Yeah. I heard about the Death Mead and anything called Death Mead Day is definitely a must attend. Lorton: What kind of alcoholic beverage do you want to not drink a whole lot of when its hot? Bixby: I know it. (Laughter) Link: At least it’s not Imperial Stout Day. Lorton: It’s stronger than Imperial Stout. Bixby: It's been fun over the years. And, we had one guy who was, owned the Downtown Johnny Brown's, for a while and he made mead cocktails and brought them to Mead Day. So even that was fun. We has meads from all over the place. Lorton: Yeah, we started Mead Day probably when AHA started recognizing it (in 2002). It wouldn’t surprise me because we were into meads back in the early 2000s, late 1990s. Bixby: I should check on the original when AHA started that cause they used to have an official recipe. So, it was like, okay, my garage wasn't so full at the time. So we used to make mead in the garage, which kept all the mess and the stickiness right there. And the, and I would… Lorton: The bees. Bixby: …clean out. Well we did have that. Lorton: When you make mead, if you do it outside, you get bees. Bixby: Oh yeah. Downie: There's a cautionary tale. Link: You come in the garage, you get, come on, really? Get outta here. Lorton: Yeah, they like honey. Bixby: But there was an official recipe and I tried to encourage people, you know, this is the official recipe we're going to do. And since I was hosting it hard for me to make it, but I'm trying to get other people to do it and we, we had some pretty good meads. Lorton: Yeah. Well, there's always… Bixby: Hot or not. I mean it was never blasting. Lorton: Yeah. There's always, always more meads. You end up with a whole bunch leftover when we’re done. Bixby: Yeah, because I tried to collect not just the ones on my travels, but some of the competition meads, even the ones where when we had the homebrew competitions. Then they were like unknown cause I never got the printout to say number whatever is such and such. So we just opened them. I still have a few for this year from last year’s competitions. Lorton: Yeah. So, you know, if we have a, if there's a competition, you know, the idea is submit two bottles. If yours is the best in your category and there's three to five categories, then that best in that category will go on and compete for the best of show. But everything else is just a second bottle, looking for a home. Bixby: (Inaudible) was my home for a long time. Downie: There's the advantage to having it at your house. Bixby: Well I didn't drink them, I saved them so we could share. Cause you never, you didn't know what they were. Lorton: At your house. It was better than being at my house. Bixby: Oh maybe so. Lorton: But yeah. And it was good because I think at the time, and we’re still doing this. There are quite a few people who are interested in being mead judges and it's good to look at “Well, this mead isn't quite so good for this reason. It's too hot and too, you know, too alcoholic” Bixby: Or no flavor. Lorton: Yeah. Things like that. So, but yeah, you know, I'm trying to remember if it was at someplace besides your place when we first got started. Bixby: I don't know. I can't remember that. That's too far off. But I know I did it because Bix was into making beer and mead making was similar to wine making. So, it interested me. And so, I started making mead. Link: With your daughter? Bixby: You know, actually I, I know I did it before, but the only mead my daughter and I ever made was in 2000 there's one bottle left. I have no idea how it tastes. I hate to open it without her. If she could ever come to Mead Day, I would open it. But she helped formulate the recipe. Downie: So good. Rich, have you ever done mead or cider? Link: Yeah, I did a few. It wasn't something that I really wanted to do much of because I didn't drink a lot of mead. It was tough for me to, it was just tough to drink that much mead. Yeah. Bixby: Are you a wine maker? I mean a wine drinker at all? You are? Link: Yeah. Bixby: You are. Lorton: I am not. Link: It is a lot easier for me to drink a bottle of wine than it was for mead. Mead was just too much. Lorton: Yeah. I'm kind of the same way. You know, I go through periods when, “Oh, that mead really tastes good. I need to make some.” And then I, you know, I've made a whole bunch and okay and I've got to get rid of these bottles, you know, and… Bixby: No, I agree. When your palate has tasted so many things, I've gone through stages too. So you know, maybe I'm into a hop mood and maybe I'm not, you know, or something like that. Lorton: Well, and for me, I have a beer with dinner and there aren't many foods that don't go well with beer, but there are a lot of foods that don't go well with wine or mead. Bixby: That's interesting. Cause I remember when all this pairing stuff, remember when they were into the pairing and the food and the beer dinners and so on. And that was one of the things I heard right from the beginning. The guys, the chefs, saying not the drinkers, but the chefs would say, yeah, they had an easier time with the beer. Lorton: Yeah. What kind of wine or me goes best with a hamburger or what kind of pizza goes best with wine? Downie: Well, I have to say when I was in the Craft Beer Expo last September and did the chocolate and beer pairing with Bill Sysak. Saturday morning at 9:00 AM, I'm sitting there with chocolate and beer in front of me going, “This is something real wrong, cause I'm not that big a beer drinker.” But Bill made the argument that the carbonation in beer actually because it cuts through the fatty of the foods, makes for a better drink with any food. Link: That’s why it’s so much better with cheese than wine is, you know, the whole wine thing is wine and cheese. Well no, it doesn't work as well as beer. Downie: And with wine, until you get into this whole, you've got red, you've got white, you've got these very distinct strong categories where with beer there seems to be a, because of the hops and things, there seem to be a more consistent thread through it. So, it just seems to be more all-purpose maybe, I am not explaining it very well. Lorton: Well, I mean there's so many, I mean beer is such a much more diverse than wine. Link: I've had arguments with wine makers about that. Oh you know, wine does this. So there's so many variations. And I said, okay, let's just talk about beer, the different kinds of malts, the different kinds of hop, different kinds of yeast. It's like infinite. Yeah, it's, it's truly infinite. Wine. Like you said, you got your reds and whites, you got blends and stuff, but they only got about five or six different categories. Really. Bixby: That was fun for me to watch. The homebrewing community really affect what we drink now because the guys had no limits. And so, we had people making beer with Jolly Ranchers or something from the grocery store, cereal bins, or something like that. And then these ideas just kind of, I think progress and what the creativity is, was part of the whole thing. That's what I love. And then of course the gadgetry, I was in love with the gadgetry. Oh my gosh you guys… Link: There were a lot of engineers and scientists that brew. Bixby: It was beautiful. That's what I love. I did love that part. That so much. Lorton: Yeah. And you see that in commercial brewing now. I mean, if you look at the new things that the brewers are making, you know, I went to a golf and beer festival a couple of weeks ago or a couple of months ago, eight breweries where there, you know, Stone, Mother Earth, Mike Hess, Latitude 33, five of those eight had a citrus IPA. You know, three years ago how many citrus IPAs were out there? Ballast Point was there with Grapefruit Sculpin. Latitude 33 had their Blood Orange IPA. Stone had Tangerine IPA, but three years ago, how many citrus IPAs were out there, and then all these new things are coming along. Man, that Blood Orange IPA from Latitude 33 is so good. Went up to Double Peak (Park) a couple of weeks ago and came back to a Japanese restaurant, a sushi bar, and they had, you know, Asahi, Kirin, Sapporo and this “blood orange stuff that we can't get rid of.” “Oh, I'll take that one. Is that from Latitude 33?” “I don't know I’ll check. Yes, it's from Latitude 33.” Bixby:Interesting. Downie: Interesting that they wouldn't. Of course when somebody goes to a sushi restaurant, they probably want to drink culturally appropriate beer. Lorton: This was in San Marcos, not far from where, you know, Homebrew Mart, whatever, Beer and Wine Crafts was located. Bixby: It’s San Diego County after all. Lorton: Oh man, it went so well, I had tempura so… Link: Are you grasping the hops nowadays? I ‘cause we used to have… Lorton: Yeah. Link: You know, arguments. I really mean ‘cause I would hop my beers. Bixby: You two would? Link: Well exceedingly hoppy and you know, and it was way too hoppy for Greg. Lorton: I would like a beer with a little bit of diacetyl in it. Link and Bixby: Oh no! Lorton: A little bit is a lot. This guy, if you open a beer with that in it in the room… Bixby: He said it a long time ago and it sticks in my mind. Link: I'm across the room going alright, who opened that up? Get that outta here! Lorton: Yeah, you and Skip. Well I normally like Belgian beers. I like non-hoppy beers, but if I'm going to have a pizza, it's got to be an IPA. you know, I really like a hoppy beer with pizza or hot chili. Downie: Spicy. Lorton: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't found a wine yet that goes well with those, but, and I haven't looked real hard either. But you know, for a beer like for a food like pizza or chili and I really kinda want a hoppy beer. Link: Chiantis, the Sangiovese with Pizza Hut. (Laughter) Bixby: There you go. Lorton: Oh man. Your masculinity is just gone into that. (Laughter) Yeah. I stopped being a wine person as soon as I discovered homebrewing. I haven't had a wine in at least a year. Bixby: Oh, I’m afraid I am an all-purpose drinker. Downie: Since you have made wine… Bixby: It depends on it, whatever my mood is. Sometimes I am in the mood for hops… Link: I don't discriminate against any alcohol. Bixby: Nor do I. Lorton: I don't have any wine in my house. Bixby: A good single malt scotch sometimes that’s what you want. Lorton: I’ve got a bottle of Laphroaig and Balmore in my refrigerator. I like them cool. But, uh, no wine. Bixby: Oh dear. Link: So where did we leave off on the QUAFF? Downie: My questions were fairly generic here, so I'm just kind of looking. You've talked about the growth of the membership, which I think really says something. I do have other QUAFF past-presidents like Peter Zien to talk to yet, but it sounds like you are still members of a very strong supportive community and you know, you're very open minded too, except for that one thing that you've talked about that you could smell it across the room. It sounds like you're a super smeller. Lorton: Diacetyl, it’s butter, it’s buttery aroma. Downie: Okay. Lorton: Really good. Bixby:For me, it’s skunky. I’ll get the skunkiness out of anything, I hate it. Link: Great on popcorn. Not so good in beer. Lorton: But I mean Rich is one of these people that is, yeah… Bixby: You know the thing you said about supportive, I think the key that I've always found with QUAFF. Supportive, not just in the, oh, who needs help brewing, but just in other ways too. When my husband died, I knew if I needed something…I'm usually, I'm a loner and I'll do it myself kind of thing. But I knew if I really needed something, I could call on somebody and I had many offers. So, I think that's, that's what it became, well, I mean, I said it in Sheldon’s (Kaplan) movie (SUDS County, USA). QUAFF to me was always a family, like a second family. Lorton: I, then one thing that Rich brings is, I mean you've been all over the world tasting beer and you know, you can talk about places in Brussels to go if you want a good beer. Places, you know… Bixby: The knowledge you mean? Lorton: Yeah. Just, well experiencing those beers at the source. You know, for me, my favorite beer city is Bamberg, Germany. Bixby: You like those malt beers. Lorton: I like it. You know, the majority of the breweries there don't make smoked beers, but you know, they all make good beer and but yeah, I do love the smoked beer. I mean almost as much as buttery beer. Downie: Where do you stand on smoked beer Rich? Link: I like it. Okay. Oh yeah. You do have common ground there somewhere. Lorton: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Link: I mean there isn't a beer style that I hate unless they put cucumber in it. (Laughter) Bixby: I might have to agree with you on that. Like cucumber water. Link: I haven't figured that one out yet. Downie: That does sound like it would be a mistake. Link: Yeah. But I see it on the shelves now. Bixby: Oh dear. Oh you do? Link: Yeah. Not kidding. Lorton: I'm trying to remember if at that beer festival I had one with cucumber in it. In the competitions, I usually like to judge what we call weird beers, which is fruit beers, spice or vegetable beers, specialty. And occasionally you run into a cucumber. But I've had some cucumber beers lately. They weren't bad, but cucumber is not my favorite. I guess that's a vegetable I don’t know and uh, yeah, it's not, I've never made one with cucumber in it. Bixby: I like cucumbers but not in water and probably would not like it in beer. Link: People like it. And that's fine. Bixby: I’ve had asparagus beer that I thought was… Link: WOW. wow. Bixby: No, I know when I saw it the guys were saying this is at GABF and so, ”You have to try this, you have to try that.” Oh, okay. And then it was done perfectly. It's like how do you get asparagus in a beer and not have it like be yucky or something? Although it did have the same effect after the fact, as eating asparagus, unfortunately. (laughter) Lorton: Thank you. TMI. I’ve never had an asparagus beer. Or spinach Bixby: It’s interesting, the different beers, you know, you run into at GABF (Great American Beer Festival) when you're, when you're working in the back with all the beers. A job. I like. Lorton: Oh wow. Link: I remember an early QUAFF meeting and the guy brought in a beer that he brewed based on some historical reading. He had dug up with bananas. And he brought it up and we're tasting it. I'm going, “Oh my God. You know, I've done everything I can to get banana tastes and flavors out of my beers. Why would you intentionally put it in?” Bixby: That’s really interesting. Link: Historical significance? Okay. Don’t like it. Lorton: I've heard that. Bixby: Not on that Sumerian tablet, I’m sure. Downie: A sacrifice for historical research. Well, there actually is in ancient Greece, if a woman was having trouble nursing a child after birth, there was a recipe involving worms crushed up in beer to correct the situation. Bixby:Oh, that's interesting. They could have minused the worms. I'm sure she would have been happier. Downie: Yeah. Maybe. Maybe the worms were to keep her from drinking too much. I don't know, but… Bixby: Maybe that's a good point. Lorton: You know, probably 15 years ago we were talking about cock ale. Randy Barnes made a beer with chicken in it and it wasn't very good. He said, well, okay, I made the cock ale and Randy, he's the guy who's the vice president of educational services with a community college district. Bixby: He’s the dean or something. Lorton: Yeah, he's the kind of guy who would do it. He's the guy who you'd never expect is a professional, if you ever ran into him. Bixby: That's right. Lorton: If, but I, yeah and he’s really… Bixby: Creative. Lorton: And he's really smart and with a sense of humor that just would never stop. Link: Jim Koch told me about doing that once their little brewery (Sam Adams) back in Boston. A pilot brewery. It wasn't so good. Downie: Yeah, it doesn't… Link: Throwing in chickens into the… Bixby: I can't even, why would you even consider that? Downie: Any meat product does not sound like it would… Link: There is some historical significance about it, which I couldn't even grasp. Lorton: Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, that's a good, I don't know. Link: Cause you know he based a lot of things on historical significance. Lorton: Yeah. Yeah. Bixby: Oh, I am going to have to read up on that now. Chicken and beer and see what I get. Lorton: Cock Ale. Ask Randy. He would probably recall. Bixby: Why he would do, I don't know about the historical, maybe he would. Lorton: Well yeah, I can't remember how we got onto that, but it was enough that it kind of sustained itself for a couple months. Downie: That's something I'm seeing here in your stories is the fact that you're supportive of each other, that you've kept in touch with each other, that you've had fun. Bixby: Oh my gosh. I don't know about these guys, but I had a blast probably, you know, I'm, I married a guy who was kinda quiet, not a social kind of person. In fact, even now when I'm thinking about him after a couple, you know, a year and a half, it's like I look up, you know, Asperger's in adults. I go, that sounds like my man. No, he just was not a social kind of guy, but QUAFF, there was a home for him in QUAFF and everybody seemed to accept him and he felt, you know, quote end quote loved there, whatever you want to call it. That was just the right place to be. I mean, it just, for us as geeky, nerdy, whatever you want to call us, we fit. Lorton: Well, and the other thing is that, you know, one of the reasons I really like making beer as opposed to making wine is that when I was married, I had a brother-in-law who was a real wine snob and he was a spirits snob, and you know, it was, it just grated on me. And you know, beer people aren't like that. Well, you know, most beer people aren't. Bixby: But do you think so? I don't think they are. Link: There are some, but yeah, there's you know… Lorton: There are a few that say, well, I'm not going to drink that. Bixby: Even the women who drink wine a lot, they’ll drink beer now and then. Link: Any, aspect of, like cheese or hamburger, anything. People are purist people. Yeah. Lorton: You have people in QUAFF who will say, “I'm not gonna drink a Ballast Point beer because they're owned by Constellation Brands. Or I'm not going to buy a…”, you know, yeah. Downie: Well, that can go back to when gas hit a dollar a gallon. People saying, “I'm not buying any more gas. Well, I'd like to see you try.” Lorton: That’s the nice thing, in beer is a much more community, you know, it, it's… Bixby: I'm not sure what it is across the country ‘cause I don't know anywhere else, but San Diego and I just feel they've been cooperative and giving. Lorton: I think it’s like that in most places, yeah. Link: Mm-hum. Bixby: I mean, I know when I've traveled all these years with Bix, we always of course, stopped at breweries nearby, right. If not aimed towards them specifically. That if you start talking to the guys, and I always like just sitting at the bar talking to who brews this. And then pretty soon somebody comes out. Oh, let me show you my tanks. And it's usually, like Peter, and like AleSmith started out with dairy tanks or something and I, and I had to weld this and I had to do that and I go, Oh yeah. So that's just a different… Lorton: It's like that all over the country. It, and it was funny because when I was teaching business classes that you'd have marketing people who didn't know beer saying, well, you know, there's not a lot of cooperation among competitors in an industry. And I say, well, you need to look at the brewing industry because you know, like, when there was a hop shortage eight years ago, you know, some brewers were giving hops to others or selling at a low price to allow them to continue. Sam Adams was selling hops, at their, you know, their costs as opposed to what the price was. You know, when there was the hop shortage. Bixby: Oh, cause they had the option. Link: Well, they bought futures, future contracts. Lorton: I mean, look at all the homebrew clubs. I was looking at the names of some of those clubs, like Brewers United for Real Potables in Virginia, the Greater Denver Yeast Infection and you know, Maltose Falcons and, you know, playing on the Maltese Falcon. Bixby: That’s a good one. Lorton: There’s Foam on the Brain here. And you know, QUAFF there, there's so many funny names that Strange Brew in Oregon, you know, and in all kinds, Urban Knaves of Grain, in Chicago. Yeah, I mean there's so many funny names, so. Yeah. And that's because that's how brewers are. They, you know, Hey, you know, this is fun. You know, we're not taking it too seriously. We are, you know, really studying, brewing, but it's for fun, you know. Bixby: Seems you know, that'd be a good lesson all over. Link: I think is just more of a social fun drink than spirits. Lorton: If I'm going to go to a place where I'm going to have a drink with other people and I have to go home, I'm going to have a beer. I'm not going to have a, you know, scotch on the rocks, you know, I'm not gonna to do that, you know? Bixby: Well, there is a group that would do that. You know, what do they think about, you know, my martini for dinner and scotch after or… Lorton: Beer seems like it's a much more sociable drink that let's go have a beer. Bixby: More for the common man and we're all just common man. I don’t know, I don’t know what the deal is. Lorton: You know, maybe a lower alcohol and a… Link: Yes, lower alcohol. You get a pint. You can drink for a half hour or more and still drive home. Lorton: Even if your home is like a mile away or so. Link: Yeah, right up there. Bixby: Mine is max 10 minutes. And that's taking the slow road here. Lorton: Well, yeah, I was gonna say when I went to Mead Day last year, I came here first and then I got on the road and I was driving and some guy’s really slow SUV or something or a Leer truck. Oh, it's Teresa and Rich. Oh, they're going to the same place I’m going. Link: It was after a day at Mead Day we decided to stop here. Yeah. Lorton: Well I did it before, which was probably a little bit of a mistake. Yeah. Downie: Well, one final thing I'd like to ask about…the increase of women in brewing, are you seeing that reflected in the membership in QUAFF? Link: I can't talk to that cause I haven't been to a QUAFF meeting. Bixby: I would, I would say no. I mean I belong to SUDS. Downie: The San Diego sorority. Bixby: Yeah. Yeah. And those women are not involved in commercial brewing. They are, it's not like the Pink Boots, it's more that they want to do their own thing. They know what they're doing and like, they do know what they're doing in spite of what you guys might think, (interjected denials from Link and Lorton) these girls do know what they're doing. In fact, I was, you know, it's really interesting cause when Juli first, Juli Goldenberg, first came up with the idea for this group (San Diego Suds Sorority), she talked at a QUAFF meeting and I said, “Oh shoot, you know, I grew up in the 60s we'd marched for equal rights, we burned our bras, we did all this kind of stuff. And why do we want to separate, you know, why do we want it something separate?” And Harold, I know I mentioned that to Harold, he goes, why don’t you just get involved in that? Why don't you see what they're all about? Cause something, I dunno what it was that he saw. So I thought. Okay. And I went and I was really impressed because they knew what they wanted to do. He knew about brewing, they had been brewing, they just wanted a group that wasn't going to be intimidating. And I went to a talk when we had our last (inaudible) conference here was in 2015 and it was about women. And that whole idea was a panel discussion on, I thought it was absolutely excellent cause there were groups of women from different women's groups across the country talking about that whole idea. And one other woman my age, as she appeared to be, got up and said, “Why do we want to be separated” and I go, “Oh gosh, that's what I voiced.” Bixby: But then the group panel kind of, you know, said because when we do stuff with the guys they want to take over, you know, it's a natural… Link: You’re a minority. It's tougher. Bixby: Thank you very much. Lorton: Well, no, no true. Bixby: In the brewing community. Yes. Not in life. Okay, that's true. So it's like what do we know about the science or the whole art of brewing? And they said this way, you know, we have this, this separateness that we can kind of teach each other and have this open kind of a... And one of the ladies said, “All guys were asking if they could come and join. Yes, you can come and be part of it, but you have to sit over there and be eye candy.” (laughter) Link: And don’t talk. Bixby: Yeah. And if we need something lifted. Downie: I was going to say there might be something of the chivalry aspect where that's big as, you're a little woman and let me help you with that. Bixby: But I thought that was a very interesting topic and it was pertinent too. And I, since I joined the SDSS and have been part of that, I've been totally impressed with the beers that come out of there. And the girls, they're just, they're fun. Lorton: Yeah. Well, if you look at who won this year at (the San Diego) International Beer Festival, I mean Liz Chism is the brewer at Council (Brewing Company). She's the one who made the beer that won. And… Bixby: It's nice that her husband Curtis really makes a point of that is not, he's not intimidated. So for me he has a lot of… Lorton: Well it was a little bit of a mind change too for me that, ‘cause I thought Curtis was the brewer. Bixby: I knew from the beginning. Lorton: He clarified that with me. That Liz is the one who brews, she's the one who makes the recipes. Bixby: So that's very impressive. She's very good at… Lorton: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've judged with both of them and she definitely, I mean it was clear that she really understands. Bixby: I don’t know, I don't see, I mean I don't know what Pink Boots (Society, organization for women and non-binary brewers) says. I know there's women in the industry, but as far as home brewing, I don't see a big enough presence in QUAFF. And I don't know if it's intimidation. I don't think so. I don't, I think it's like what's more important in your life? What's going on? Do you need to… Link: The time that you have available, its pretty easy to go order a beer. Bixby:You know, a guy is going to go out, that's his thing. You know, where a woman might say I got, especially if she has kids and then she's got a job and then she's got a house and I'm sorry guys. But it's still that way you're as the female, you're still the one that, because it's your nest and it's, and that's okay. It's just, you know, when I was growing up it's like gender equality, course, you know, I will always be for financial equality, but you know, these days there is no gender equality. We are different and that's okay. And once we get past that then we can go on. Lorton: Well, you know, before the Industrial Revolution, women were the ones who made beer. You know, that was part… Bixby: That way before, cause you guys were doing the, catching those mammoths and whatever else you guys, you know. Lorton: So you know, that was their job. I think. Yeah, it's unfortunate. I think that, you know, there is this, still you know, homebrewing is still predominantly a male kind of thing. The other thing that I think is surprising, and I didn't realize this until after I'd started all grain brewing is I'm essentially cooking, you know? Yeah. Here I am in the kitchen, slaving over a hot stove. (laughter) I'm cooking. So, yeah. And you know, and I realize, I'm creating recipes thinking, okay... (brief interruption by the server.) Downie: You did want your crowler. Don’t forget. Bixby: Oh that’s right, cause I'm going to the meeting tomorrow. Lorton: Oh, and for Mead Day, I went to a new meadery last week in Vista. Bixby: Which one? Lorton: Twisted Horn. Bixby: I've heard of that. How was it? Lorton: Yeah, they had some good meads. I'm waiting for Billy (Beltz) to open his meadery (Lost Cause Meadery). Bixby: Me too. Lorton: …and he's going to be in Miramar. That's going to be something. Link: What’s the name of it? Lorton: Lost Cause. Link: Isn’t there another meadery just opened there? Lorton: Well, Twisted Horn. Oh, it's Serendipity Cider is there. Bixby: He’s in the same spot is as... Lorton: And I think he's been having some regulatory problems, but there are four meaderies. There's also one called Mediocrity. Bixby: Yeah. And then the Bronto group guys. Lorton: Oh, I haven't heard that one. Bixby: Yeah, they're not making good stuff. Mediocrity is okay. Lorton: I have not tried theirs. Bixby: They're like up in there. They're okay. Link: Are they like mediocre? (laughter) Bixby: I don't know why somebody would choose that name. Lorton: We were talking about how about Black Plague (Brewing Company) as a name for a brewery? Link: Yeah. Bixby: I'm not sure where these guys come up with this stuff, but… Lorton: Well, Twisted Horn is a big Viking thing. And they're in the area with all the Vista breweries. Bixby: Were they on the sweet side or no, is Viking sweet? Lorton: No, they were semi-sweet. But they had, you know, they had like, it was posted Horn Mead and Cider and I only tried the meads but they had probably six meads to choose from. The one I liked the best was a blueberry melomel, but they had various collections. I'll bring some, I'll stop by there and get a small growler to bring by. But yeah, on Lost Cause, I mean when they get situated there's going to be five breweries and meaderies literally across the street (Miralani Drive, San Diego) from each other. Bixby: And sake. Lorton: Okay. Yeah. Cause I mean Two Kids, Align, what’s that, Thunderhawk? And there’s another one, Projector? Bixby: I know. Downie: There's Protector. Link: Protector. That’s the one, they're not a meadery? Lorton: I don't think they are. Bixby: Protector. Now see that's not one I have heard of. I can't keep up. These guys are moving too fast. Lorton: Well yeah, I've got to talk with my son cause my son likes to make mead and… Bixby: Oh, his son made the best. I'm sorry, I'm sorry Greg, but his bouchet was wonderful. Lorton: Bouchet is a mead that's made from caramel from sugar that's been, or honey that's been carmelized. Downie: Ooh. Bixby: And you know I tasted one at Mike Buck’s. Mike Buck made one that was really good too. Lorton: Yeah. I made one. But it was kind of underdone. Bixby: Yeah, your son's was… Lorton: Yeah, he made a good one. It was distinctive. Bixby: I can definitely remember one. Mine just tasted really good at the beginning, getting at all those bubblegum flavors and all that. And then it just dissipated. Okay. That's not non distinct. Lorton: Right. Unfortunately, mine is gone, long gone, so I don't know what… Bixby: Mine's gone too. Lorton: That tastes like. But yeah, that area, that Miralani Drive is… Bixby: I know and it's getting… Link: Oh, they're (Protector Brewery) all organic. Organic. Lorton: Okay. Downie: Yeah. I was just looking at them last night. Bixby: Oh dear. So what’s not organic about honey? Lorton: True. Link: They’re not a meadery, they’re a brewery. Bixby: Oh. Oh. Downie: And probably the biggest challenge is organic hops. Bixby: Oh, that makes sense. So is anybody doing that locally? Organic hops? I mean, how many local hops growers do we have? We have Star B (ranch and hop farm in Ramona, CA)… Lorton: Well, I would guess I met with a guy (Eric March) from Star B one time and we were talking about you know, meads, but you know, it wouldn't surprise me. And there's an article in West Coaster I think this month about Star B also. Bixby: Is there? Lorton: Yeah. Get the West Coaster here. Bixby: Is it in there? Lorton: Yeah. Okay. But yeah, you know, I think one of the interesting things is, you know, looking at businesses and that's one thing that I've been trying to study a lot is you know, what's the factors lead to success in business. And you know, we see that, okay, apparently Lightning (Brewery, Poway CA) is selling all their stuff. Bixby: Yeah. I don't know what, Jim (Crute), I think is too academic or… Lorton: No marketing at all. Bixby: Yeah. I think, I mean, he was a great brewer and all that and I loved it. He was a great guy. Lorton: But did you see Intergalactic (Brewing Company) is looking at maybe getting it, you need to get the West Coaster (San Diego brewing magazine, defunct). Downie: And the Intergalactic website is saying that they are definitely taking a different direction, whether it's to close or… Bixby: No kidding. Lorton: There's an article on it. Link: I heard that last Friday Lorton: And you know, I think the way to go in the future is just do it small. You know, don't they expect to conquer the world? Bixby: You mean don't start thinking Ballast Point billion dollars-ish. I think that's going to do you in, ‘cause we are San Diego and you would like some of our local, um… Lorton: There's also an interview with Jim Crute in that and he says if he was ever to get back in the business it would be as a nanobrewery making a small amount of beer for a localized customer base. Bixby: Like, like local English pub kind of thing made locally. Link: Like this here (Burning Beard Brewery). Bixby: Oh well like, yeah, they don't want to screw this up because this is too close to my house. And I know it's a bit like, I don't even have to go to Santee. I'm right here. Lorton: Like I was telling Judith that El Cajon was pretty much a beer desert. Bixby: Oh, you don't even go there. I know how many times I was like, “Oh, the Bostonia Ballroom (El Cajon, CA), that huge building there. I thought that's a great place for some fun.” Well, no, now I don't know what they're doing over there. Link: Yeah, that area is… Bixby: Don't say that. There's where I live. I don't know what's going on in that area. Link: It’s a commercial area. Bixby: I mean, I don't know what's happening with El Cajon in general. Lorton: It’s a great place to visit, but not to live. (laughter) Bixby: Find me a house in La Mesa so I can walk to a coffee. Lorton: Yeah. But you’re east of that, right? You're closer to Alpine than anybody else here. Bixby: Yeah. I am close to Alpine. Bixby: Yeah. I used to go the Breadbasket all the time when before it was Alpine Brewing. Lorton: Is that right? Bixby: Yeah. Downie: Well, at this point I'm going to end our recording and I want to thank you all for the time and the stories. This has been absolutely fascinating. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LinkRich_BixbyMarianne_LortonGreg_DownieJudith_2017-07-09.xml LinkRich_BixbyMarianne_LortonGreg_DownieJudith_2017-07-09.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Link, Rich, Mary Anne Bixby, and Greg Lorton. Interview July 9, 2017. Description An account of the resource <span><strong>Rich Link, Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton</strong> are all early members of <strong>Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (QUAFF)</strong>, a San Diego area homebrewing group. In this interview, Link, Bixby, and Lorton discuss their introduction to craft beer, early home brewing experiences, QUAFF, various local breweries, mead, and womens’ participation in homebrewing. None have worked in the industry professionally, but all are certified beer judges and Lorton and Bixby also judge mead competitions.</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Link</strong> wrote for the&nbsp;</span><em>Celebrator Beer News</em><span>&nbsp;magazine on the Southern California beer scene and his experiences visiting European breweries. He served several terms as QUAFF President. He is a certified beer judge.</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Lorton</strong> served as QUAFF Newsletter editor and President. (He has provided a separate oral history.)</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Bixby</strong>, with her late husband, Horace, switched from wine making to beer making. She belonged to the SDSS (San Diego Suds Sorority) which was a women-only subgroup of QUAFF.<br /></span> <p><span data-contrast="auto"><strong>QUAFF</strong> was founded in 1989 for San Diego area homebrewers to learn, improve, and successfully compete with their beers, ciders, meads, and other fermented beverages. The group also assists members with earning national Beer Judge Certification (BJCP) and encourages participation in club-only and external competitions and charity events.&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">QUAFF is noted for sponsoring the America’s Finest City Homebrew Competition. One recipe from the pool of first-place winners considered for Best of Show at this event is selected for production at a local commercial brewery. Participating breweries have included Stone Brewing and AleSmith Brewing. The beers produced include Stone’s Xocovesa, developed by member Chris Banker. The club has garnered awards such as the American Homebrewers Association’s Radegast Award for community involvement and California and National Homebrew Club of the Year Awards, based on competition points earned.&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Dozens of QUAFF members have ‘gone pro’ either finding employment in the beer industry in a variety of positions or opening their own brewery. Some have opened breweries in San Diego County and others have moved either elsewhere in California or out of state.</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span><span data-contrast="auto">As the group has grown, the monthly meetings have moved from member’s homes, to Callahan’s Pub, Karl Strauss Brewery and Gardens, and now meet at The Gärten (Bay Park neighborhood beer garden space shared by Lost Cause Mead, Oddish Wine, and Deft Brewing.)&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Their website is found at </span><a href="https://quaff.org/"><span data-contrast="none">https://quaff.org/</span></a><span data-contrast="auto">&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <span>This recording was made on the front exterior patio of Burning Beard Brewery in El Cajon; there are periods of traffic noise which interfered with recording.</span> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-054 Subject The topic of the resource Home brewing -- California -- San Diego County Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (San Diego, Calif.) Women brewers -- California -- San Diego County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rich Link Mary Anne Bixby Greg Lorton Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/350ab5bf49cba0e9a4a923eb587611ce.pdf f11c38b6b10d6cbed0c2b9dd40740984 PDF Text Text RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Judith Downie: 00:00:00 Okay. It's July 9th, 2017.1 This is Judith Downie interviewer, with Rich Link and Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton, all QUAFF members, former officials of QUAFF, for oral history about their experiences with homebrewing and QUAFF. 2 It should be able to pick up everybody. So basically, you know, you can kind of look at those questions I gave you. You can start talking maybe from, how did you start homebrewing? What got you interested? Rich Link: 00:00:40 Well, I liked beer. And I saw something on TV one day and I saw something in a liquor store and it had a recipe and I said, “You can actually make beer at home?” And then I just looked in the yellow pages and there was Wine Art at the time over here on Fletcher Parkway.3 And, uh, that was in 1980 as I recall it. And at that time, homebrewers essentially made a five-gallon batch with a can of malt and four pounds of corn sugar, holding back a cup of corn sugar for bottling. For the bottling. And it was okay. It was as actually better than, you know, the mass-produced beers here in the United States ‘cause you know, we just couldn't take that stuff anymore. 90% of what I would drink would come from England and Germany. And at that time those were really good beers. Downie: 00:01:54 And where were you finding these beers? Link: 00:01:56 Yeah, in liquor stores. Yeah. Like that time, I think we had like Liquor Barn and some of the little hole-in-the-walls would have some good imports, but you know, it was like some beers were like $10, $12 a six pack and that was pretty expensive. You could make about two and a half cases of beer for about $10 or $15., seems like. Yeah. You know, I remember my first batch very, very clearly. It was a Pale Ale and it got all funked up with the yeast and it was cidery and it's like, “Okay, but you know, there's still something behind there that tastes really good.” It actually had good malt flavor and some hop flavor. Had no idea what the hops were because we just bought a bag that said ‘boiling hops’ and another one that said ‘finishing hops’. [Laughter.] Greg Lorton: 00:02:56 But you made it. Link: 00:02:58 Yeah. And it was cool. And I remember when the fermentation took off and you'd see the head on the beer. It's like, “Wow, that's pretty cool.” Smelled amazing. Bottling sure was a pain in the butt. Mary Anne Bixby: 00:03:12 It always is. Recording on front exterior patio of Burning Beard Brewery in El Cajon, there are periods of traffic noise which interfered with recording. 2 Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity home brewers club. 3 In the 1980s, Wine Art was a nation-wide chain of supply shops for home wine making. It was located on Fletcher Parkway in El Cajon, California. 1 Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 1 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON Lorton: TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Yeah. That's the one thing that pushes me towards Rich and uh, yeah. Mary Anne, what about you and Bix?4 Bixby: 00:03:28 Well, my first experience with home brewed beer was in college and it wasn't my own, it was friends' and the guys had made this beer that they had in mason jars. It was all cloudy. so, it was very yeasty. That part I remember very well and it was awful. It was awful. I think all I could say was give me a glass of wine. Lorton: 00:03:51 Were you a, you were a chemistry major? Bixby: At one time. Lorton: Okay. At Purdue? Bixby: At Purdue. Lorton: Okay. Bixby: 00:04:00 But, when I got married, we were winemakers and we started out with Wine Art in Chicago and they had these plans where you could make four wines and they had the classes and… Wine Art at that time was, like early seventies, not into beer that much. They had some cans of malt on the shelf, but nowhere near what we have available now with yeasts and the hops and so on. So Bix and I were making wine and he did try beer once but it started exploding in the basement. So I think we dumped most of it out. Link: 00:04:39 I can’t tell you how many times I've heard that story about exploding beers. “Oh yeah. My uncle used to make beer. It used to explode.” Man, I never had one explode. Lorton: 00:04:47 Yeah, I would wake up in the morning, go out in the garage and “Hmm. Smells like malt.” Bixby Oh oh. Lorton: You look at the shelf and there's stuff dripping down, a wet spot with bottles there and there's one bottle that looks a little shorter than the others. And yeah, it blew apart and the top sank down. Yeah, I had. And it wasn't until, you know, I never had that with an extract brew. But once I started all grain brewing… 4 Bix is the nickname for Mary Ann’s husband, Horace Bixby, another early member, deceased. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 2 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Lorton: 00:05:21 I never had a bad extract brew. I never had great extract brew. But once I went to all grain, I had some really good ones. Some pretty bad ones. [Laughter.] So now when was this all this wine making stuff? Bixby: 00:05:45 Well, in the 70s and then we moved here to California in ‘75 and we started with the Wine Art again with making wine with their program. And then all this stuff started appearing on the shelves and Bix got interested in the beer, and before you know it, he was making beer and also we joined QUAFF. And that went that direction totally. I think we only made a few wines after that; it was all beer. Downie: 00:06:20 So, my understanding is that Audrey Eckblom and Owen were kind of the nucleus of the startup QUAFF. But I have not been able to reach Audrey and I know she's in Nevada and I tried to call her and I've tried writing her and don't get a response. So, what do you remember about beer in Wine Crafts? I know she took it over when Wine Crafts decided to close the location and she became Beer and Wine Crafts. But you know anything about her history as a brewer or anything like that? Lorton: 00:07:02 Yeah, I moved down here in 1988 and I was living in Carlsbad, but that was the only place to go. And they opened a second shop in San Marcos. Probably in the, I'm thinking, uh, mid-nineties… Link: Mid-nineties, something like that, 1995. Lorton: Yeah, it was you know, I can show you exactly where it is in San Marcos. Link: I remember it. Lorton: But I mean that was a lot closer for me. Yeah. It was near Bent Avenue. Bixby: 00:07:42 Well before Audrey and Owen had the place, there was, it was owned by somebody named Peter, I think it was Peter, his name. And he I guess got out of the business, I don't know, cause then it was Audrey and Owen and she was pretty, she was really very helpful. Link: 00:08:02 She used to make wine. She was actually an employee there. And I remember the girl that was one of the owners, she had an accent. I don't remember her name, but it was shortly after that that they, Owen and Audrey bought the place from her. Now Owen was actually a beer judge. He, he knew beer. Bixby: I didn’t know that. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 3 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON Link: TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Yeah. Now, I don't know about any accreditation. It certainly wasn't with the AHA, but, he was labeled a beer judge.5 So yeah. I was a pretty good beer judge myself from college days. Downie: 00:08:45 Well, accreditation would have been maybe a little bit later because it was Carter's era that, even home brewing was legal again. So, you really couldn't probably do accredited judging until, you know, you'd had a few years being legal again. Link: 00:09:00 I don't remember when the AHA started, but I think the legalization was in ‘79. Yeah. And that's when the bill by Alan Cranston.6 Yeah. Downie: 00:09:16 He signed it and Carter signed it in ‘78. Link: 00:09:20 The US bill started by a Senator in Wisconsin.7 Downie: 00:09:28 And then everything winds up having to come down to state level and then county level and city level. Lorton: 00:09:33 But California was at the forefront of that kind of stuff. So. Yeah. Downie: 00:09:40 And so Rich, you were telling Greg that you were the third QUAFF president who was president number one and number two? Link: 00:09:47 So, president number one was Greg Schwaller and so now I wasn't there. So a lot of what I get is from Bob Whritner. Lorton: 00:10:02 And I have an email from Greg Schwaller going the fact that your part of that where he was, you know, kind of you're remembering what the original, he was the one who came up with the name of QUAFF. Bixby Interesting. Lorton: And he was citing a verse from Poe, Edgar Allen Poe as the source. And what they were doing is they were thinking, you know, all, most homebrew clubs have some clever pun-related acronym. And, you know, they felt that, well, QUAFF is, let's think of something that QUAFF sounds like a beer-drinking term. So, let's come up with some words that fit that. So that's where Quality Ale Fermentation Fraternity came from. Unfortunately, Bob gave me some stuff that documented all of that. It was like the originals. I gave it to Peter and I'm not sure if it still exists. 8 I meant 5 AHA is the American Homebrewers Association. Cranston’s bill was specifically for California. United States (Federal level). 8 Peter Zien 6 7 Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 4 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 to ask Peter when I last saw him, but you know, it actually has the legal yellow pad where it has the names of the… Downie: 00:11:17 Bixby: Lorton: Oh, you need to ask him. 00:11:20 Link: Lorton: Yeah. I have to ask Peter. Yeah. Peter Zien, [several people talking] you know, I meant to ask him. Judith and I talked with Peter a couple of weeks ago and I forgot then I [inaudible]. Peter's birthday party, I forgot. That was a busy day. 00:11:41 Downie: Lorton: Is this is Peter Zien? Yeah. And I'm hoping they still have it. Yeah, I've still got the oral history to arrange with Peter and Vicky, so I'll put that on my list to ask as well. 00:11:54 Yeah, I guess Greg Schwaller now, lives, I think at Three Rivers, which is near Sequoia. At least that was where he was I think 2010 or so. Link: Okay. Bixby: Gosh, that's a long time ago, yeah. Link: 00:12:09 I thought Bob, last I talked with Bob, he thought he was up Montana or Wyoming or something like that, but who knows. Lorton: 00:12:19 Yeah, I can send you the email that has that. Downie: 00:12:20 That would be lovely, yeah, that'd be a real touchstone for QUAFF’s history. Lorton: 00:12:26 It would because I, I never met him…met Greg. Bob is, Rich and Bob or someone Bixby: Who was after you? Link: After me? Skip.9 Lorton: Who was before you? 9 Skip Virgilio. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 5 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Link: Paul Wesley.10 So I remember when QUAFF was starting because Owen tried to get me to go to the meetings. At that time, I wasn't really interested in, it wasn't all that interested in joining or being part of things. So… Bixby: A loner type, huh. Link: Well yeah. But I do remember him telling me, you know, we're having a meeting down at, it was Old Columbia.11 That's what everyone called it back then. And it was before Chris really wanted to stress the Karl Strauss part of it.12 And then I still didn't want to go. I mean, their beer wasn't all that great. Why would I want to go all the way downtown? Downie: 00:13:29 How much was gas a gallon then? Link: 00:13:36 Yeah, yeah, 30 cents. But then, you know, like I said, Paul Wesley followed Greg. And Paul lived out here in Lakeside, and then Owen and Audrey kept working on me and working on me. And then finally they convinced me to go to a meeting at Callahan's.13 At the original Callahan's, this was in 1990. Bixby: 00:14:03 That's your first time you went? Link: 00:14:09 Uh-huh. And, you know, after like two to three meetings, you know, Paul pretty much recruited me to take over. In those days you needed someone, you know. And so, he kind of felt that I was trustworthy and knew some things. But the club at that time was, I mean we had it from, most of the guys were, like I talked about earlier, the extract corn sugar brewers who are really interested in making liquid alcohol for as cheap as they could make it. Link: 00:14:44 And cheap was like the number one priority, truly. And I'm not trying to just make fun of these guys, but that was it. Yeah. They can make 10 cent pints of beer, man, they were in heaven. But we also had guys like Vinnie Cilurzo, and John Thomas and Bob Whritner and Greg Schwaller, some of the guys who really knew what they were doing, you know. So that was pretty cool. And we'd have a little corner and bring in beers and taste them and give remarks and stuff. And that was all pretty cool. But there was a great deal of the club at the time that was not interested in going beyond, you know, the kit type mentality. And I was. In fact most of the guys had never even heard of the AHA. That was kind of my goal is get involved with the AHA more. Wesley served as second QUAFF president. Karl Strauss’ Old Columbia Brewing Company. Original location on Columbia St. San Diego. 12 Chris Cramer, co-founder of Karl Strauss Brewing Company. 13 Callahan’s Pub & Brewery on Mira Mesa Blvd, San Diego. 10 11 Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 6 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Link: 00:15:39 And that was when we had our first club-only competition and it was a pale ale and Whritner, Bob Whritner, was our representative and he got a second place on the national level in that competition. That kind of lit everyone up cause “Look, we do make good beer and we can get some recognition, let's go for it.” And things got pretty exciting at that time and, beer kinda got better. And you know, we had recently come across liquid yeast, you know, a couple of years earlier, it seemed like it was ’87, ‘86, something like that. So beer was getting much better and a lot more fun to brew. I remember making great wort, just absolutely great man, this is the best beer I've ever made. And then throwing in the packet of yeast and when it comes out and like crap. It's just very disappointing. And then Wyeast was the first pack of liquid yeast I remember.14 In smack packs.15 Lorton: 00:16:48 Is Bob still around here? Are you still in contact with him? Link: 00:16:52 A little bit here and there. They spend, I'd say 90% of their time up in June Lake, but they do have the place in Rancho Bernardo. Lorton: 00:17:00 Yeah, I mean Bob would be a good guy to talk to you. I mean, he's really a colorful guy. I think he's an ice scientist or something like that who would go on cruises to research the Arctic. And alcohol is not permitted on a ship, but you've got a bunch of scientists who are really creative, so yeah. Bixby: Better than prison brew. Lorton: Yeah. He would tell me about the breweries or the places to get beer in Tromsø, Norway. You know, some of the story, and Bob is such a funny guy. Somebody was talking about Bob at Peter's party too, it may have been you. Link: 00:17:50 Downie: Bixby: Yeah, it was probably me. We had dinner with them and Skip and Mary last summer. Okay. About a year ago. Yeah, he's 80 years old now. He's getting along a little slower as people do. Yeah. Honestly, you can remember, remember what happened. That's it sounds like he's probably, yeah. So he's definitely on my list of people to approach. Mary Anne. When did you join QUAFF, you and Bix? 00:18:24 I think it was like ‘92 or so but I remember going to meetings at La Jolla Brewing on Fay Street.16 Yeast laboratory. Smack-pack yeast packaging contains an internal activator packet to break open before adding to the wort. 16 Fay Avenue, La Jolla. 14 15 Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 7 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Link: Yeah, we moved there. Because Callahan's was too slow, too small. Bixby: So you went from Callahan’s to La Jolla and then back to Callahan’s. Link: Yeah. And then the PB Brewhouse.17 Lorton: 00:18:48 I remember my first meeting was at PB Brewhouse, but it was there because Skip was the brewer there and he was doing a tour. And that was probably May or June of ‘94 because I was lucky enough to win best in show for the AFC.18 And so they said, yeah, why don't you come to a meeting? But I think the normal meeting place at that point was La Jolla Brewing on Fay Street. Yeah. Bixby: 00:19:21 That's where I first started. Yeah. That little back room. Isn't that where you gave your slide presentation on? Link: 00:19:26 No, the slide was at the expanded Callahan's. Well, when we first started at Callahan's, it was just that one room and we couldn't close it off to the public, you know, so we'd have our meeting and the public and it was not, just not. Downie: Not when you are passing out beer. Link: Well, and the club started to grow. I mean we would have, you know, a lot of nights we'd have 15 or 20 people, but then there was one year at the Del Mar Fair where it got a lot of visibility and the next meeting there was like 40 people and it was like standing room only. It's like, wow, we can't do this anymore. And, and, and La Jolla Brewing Company was just opening and they had a nice big back room. It's like October of 1990. And, so then we moved there. They only lasted a year, a year and a half. And Callahan's had expanded so they had a room that they could close off for us. So that was nice. So we went back there and then, then PB Brew House had, but we actually met in the brewery as I recall it. Didn't we? Lorton: 00:20:48 I remember Skip. That first meeting, that was the only QUAFF meeting that I went to that was PB Brew House. But Skip had a tour. Link: They weren't there very long. Lorton: No. And Skip was, he was the president at the time and you know, showing how everything was done. That's the only, only time. And again, that was May or June of 1994. 17 18 Pacific Beach Brewhouse, on Mission Boulevard, San Diego. America’s Finest City home brewers competition. 1994 was the first year. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 8 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Bixby: Was Dion after Skip then?19 Link: Yes. Lorton: I think Ted Newcomb. Link: Oh, Ted. Bixby: Oh, Ted. And then Skip then Dion? Lorton: Yeah. And then Todd. Link: I think Ted was a one year. Lorton: Yeah, I've got a list of who is president after from Skip on. So, when I get home I'm now going to pull it out [inaudible]. Downie: Wow. Yeah. That's so great. At what point would you say QUAFF actually formalized, ‘cause you said you were kind of recruited into the presidency and it sounds like maybe you kind of recruited Skip to be your relief at some point. Link: It’s kind of still that way. [Laughter] Bixby: Are we really formalized? Link: What does that mean? Downie: Bylaws… Lorton: 00:22:00 You know, Rich will go to the restroom. Okay quick. Let's decide on president. Rich. Oh, it's unanimous. Come back from the restroom. “Hey Rich, congratulations you’re president.” Downie: The moral there is don't leave the room. Lorton: Yeah. You know when I became president and Peter was the president, it was Todd Fitzsimmons then Peter and then me. But it was always the case as well. You know, Peter's kind of taking over the stuff that Todd was doing. So Peter is kind of a natural guy for that and I think I kind of fell into the same thing. And Harold Gulbransen was after me and so he got in there and then Bob McKay. 19 Dion Hollenbeck. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 9 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON Bixby: 00:22:25 TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 My impression has always been, the president has always fallen into that position. It's like, man… Link: I think there was one year. Bixby: willing to do the job to, to pick up, you know, to take up the reins and go for it. And, and we've been very, very fortunate in my tenure. I mean, I mean my time with QUAFF to have some really good people dedicated. Link: 00:23:11 But there was one year where we had a vote at a club vote. Bixby: Oh you remember that, who was this then? Link: Well, I think that was Skip’s second term, but we dodged the bullet. And I think that thought, cause I was, when I handed it off to Skip, you know, we would have essentially closed board meetings and I said “I nominate Skip.” And that was pretty much it. Yeah. Yeah. And then something came up about voting for it, and it was hard to, hard to argue on that point, but we did. But boy, there was something close. I remember that was something that was averted. Link: 00:24:05 Bixby: Yeah, but since then I remember, I think when Todd was president, there was some kind of czar-ish directive. [Laughter] Czar-ish, it that what you said? Lorton: 00:24:22 Well we, you know, when I was on the board from the time I was the newsletter editor from ‘96 on and ‘til I became president, but it was always a board decision on what the officers were going to be rather than, and we would put it up to the meeting if, you know, the board has decided that this should be the slate of officers. Does anybody have any objection or, you know, I think, I can't recall if we actually said all those in favor, say aye and everybody would go “Give me another beer, aye.” You know? Downie: 00:24:56 Then everybody had an opportunity to say something, so it wasn't completely closed or anything. Lorton: 00:25:01 Well, and the other thing is that the people who were really interested in how the club was running were the board members. Bixby: 00:25:07 That's true. Yeah. No, that's a good statement. Yeah. Downie: A process of natural selection. Bixby: Yes, and those who are actually doing most of the work. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 10 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Lorton: I think that’s the way it continues now. Bixby: Yes, and we've tried to get more newer board members, we want QUAFF to continue. Downie: Right. Bixby: And we've been throwing it out there over and over, you know, but people are reluctant to, they have their own lives. This is not, you know, like any group. It's a volunteer kind of position. So try to get some of these young people, we have, we have several very great new ideas and so on. I love that part. I just want it to continue. I love QUAFF so much. Lorton: You know, you haven't been a one of the senior officers. Bixby: Never, not yet. Link: [Showing photograph] So that was the original room at Callahan. Downie: That's wonderful. Bixby: Can I see that? Lorton: I’ve got to see that too. Link: And then they added on that section right there where they could actually rope it off. Lorton: Yeah, I remember we had one meeting. There was a point at which we were kind of, we kind of hit a minimum and I remember Harold Gulbransen was giving a talk and it was in October and he was competing with the World Series which was on the TV screen behind him. Bixby: Which was hard for him as one eye was probably on the Series and one eye on the…That’s really great. You have a date on the back too? Lorton: This guy is much more… Link: I would say this is probably about 92-ish. This is not like the photos when we were kids that had the date on the back or on the margins. Downie: 20 00:26:44 Well of course I am trying to work with Lee at Callahan’s and he can probably give me some dates. 20 I would hope he would remember QUAFF’s presence. Lee Doxtader, co-founder of Callahan’s and San Diego Brewing Company Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 11 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Bixby: Was Lee around that long ago? Oh my, [another photograph] well that's… Downie: Chris with Karl Strauss. Bixby: Yeah. Yeah. I remember one of those is a beer dinners they had. I actually sat at the table with Karl and his wife. It was kind of fun. Bixby: 00:27:48 I think they still have the same chef. Link: You know, I think so. Bixby: Gunther. Downie: You even remember his name. Bixby: Good food! Link: I knew I had a picture. Bixby: Yeah. That's great. Downie: 00:28:03 So. the pictures are wonderful. I mean that would be something that I would be interested in digitizing, giving you copies of the digital files. Link: 00:28:09 Most of those are pre-digital, so they're just going to be… Downie: Negatives floating around, if you still have the negatives. Link: They’re somewhere. Yeah, it's tough. Downie: 00:28:22 It is. I'm going through my parents’ things and my mother was, you know, a historian at heart and I actually, when I was emptying out the house, I found up on the very highest shelf in the entry hall closet, so, of course that's where the heat all rises. Six eight-millimeter films, pre-sound. My parents' wedding day. My cousins, there's actually some of me, I took them to ScanDiego and they were able to salvage pretty much everything and digitize them. So, I have to give my family, you know, pictures, you know, the films on a DVD and say, here you go. And if anybody, I filled in what I knew what I could recognize and some of them I had to kind of guesstimate the date saying, well, okay, I'm in there. So, I know that had to be this year, but I'm not in that one and this cousin looks younger, so it was probably a couple of years earlier. And I've asked the family, of course, you know, probably none of them have actually stopped and taken the time to look at the DVDs. If I put them online like in Dropbox and link them and said, here, go look at these and you know, give me some feedback. They'd Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 12 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 probably do that. But you know, a lot of people don't have DVD players even anymore. Link: DVD? Downie: Yeah, I do have the online digital files. Link: That’s our media now. Downie: Yeah, for me. I've got DVD player and stuff. Bixby: [to Lorton] Which one did you get? Lorton: Get Thee to a Nunnery. 21 Bixby: I’m telling you, that is going to be one of my new favorites. Link: 00:29:42 Did you try the English [inaudible]? Lorton: Oh, the Banksy? Link: No, the [inaudible]. Lorton: No I didn’t. Link: What was it, something about all night or midnight or something. Down Through the Night? Bixby: We'll wait for you if you go get a beer. Loron: I'm just going to say… Link: Well now you can talk about me… Lorton: Let me check on my record to see if I... Link: Quite frankly, there were a lot of QUAFF members at that time that didn't like what I was doing and they stopped coming. But I think it was the right thing to do to make QUAFF more.... Bixby: What years were you in? Link: I was president in 1990. So for two years. 21 Beer name. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 13 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Lorton: Yeah. I had the same experience. Bixby: I must have this come in on the end of you. I don't remember being displeased. Link: Well, I think people like us, we're happy with the direction it’s going. But the guys that were making the 10 cent pints, were not. Bixby: Oh, there is a different mentality. When you talk to people across the, yeah, it's a different mentality. Lorton: 00:30:52 Bixby: Lorton: I mean there was a group, they were complaining, “Oh, you guys are too focused on competition.” But it was, I never thought it was, so much as focus on competitions is focusing on bettering your craft is what it was. And so the competitions were feedback. I always looked at it in a totally different way. 00:31:14 Well, it depends on your perspective ‘cause I agree totally with you. Link: But, there were a lot of members even after the exodus in my period, there were still a lot of members thought we were too fixated on competitions. And I would just tell them don't worry about it. Yeah. Downie: You don't have to participate. It can be a goal for some. Bixby: Yeah, yeah. Link: Just learn from it. Come and enjoy it. What did you want? Bixby: Another Nun. Lorton: 00:31:59 Let me know what that British beer was Rich that you said if I had… Link: Oh, it’s Down through the Night, a British Strong. Lorton: Oh okay, now I haven’t had that. Bixby: You know, I live so close, I should have had everything here. Lorton: You know, getting drunk has no appeal to me. Bixby: No, no, no, no, no. You know, that's not the point. Lorton: I know a lot of people who, “Oh yeah,” like get, well, I mean, but I'm not one of them. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 14 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Bixby: You get drunk, you can't taste another good beer. Lorton: Yeah, I get headaches the next morning. You know, if it's too much, the bed starts spinning around. Bixby: It’s been a long time since that happened. Lorton: I was just going to say, that's when I was a wine person. Downie: 00:32:34 So, Mary Anne, tell me about Mead Day and the celebration at your house. Bixby: 00:32:40 You know I cannot remember the first time I did it. You’re kind of, like have some trust you know, in your reminisces. Lorton: 00:32:48 The unfortunate thing is a lot of my memory is actually in the newsletters that I did. And I don't know if my newsletters predate mead day and I'm trying to remember where else we were. I told Judith that Frank Golbeck came to one of our mead days a few years ago. Bixby: But I'd had them before Frank came along. Lorton: They were quite, I don't know how, I don't remember. It just seems like a long time we have done this. And it's the national mead day, which is the first Saturday in August, which is kind of hot in El Cajon usually, which is an understatement. But sometimes it rained a couple times, but other than that… Lorton: I told her about Death Mead Day. Downie: Yeah. I heard about the Death Mead and anything called Death Mead Day is definitely a must attend. Lorton: What kind of alcoholic beverage do you want to not drink a whole lot of when its hot? Bixby: I know it. [Laughter] Link: 00:33:54 At least it’s not Imperial Stout Day. Lorton: It’s stronger than Imperial Stout. Bixby: It's been fun over the years. And, we had one guy who was, owned the Downtown Johnny Brown's, for a while and he made mead cocktails and Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 15 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 brought them to Mead Day.22 So even that was fun. We has meads from all over the place. Lorton: 00:34:19): Yeah, we started Mead Day probably when AHA started recognizing it. It wouldn’t surprise me because we were into meads back in the early 2000s, late 1990s.23 Bixby: I should check on the original when AHA started that cause they used to have an official recipe. So, it was like, okay, my garage wasn't so full at the time. So we used to make mead in the garage, which kept all the mess and the stickiness right there. And the, and I would… Lorton: The bees. Bixby: …clean out. Well we did have that. Lorton: When you make mead, if you do it outside, you get bees. Bixby: Oh yeah. Downie: There's a cautionary tale. Link: You come in the garage, you get, come on, really? Get outta here. Lorton: Yeah, they like honey. Bixby: But there was an official recipe and I tried to encourage people, you know, this is the official recipe we're going to do. And since I was hosting it hard for me to make it, but I'm trying to get other people to do it and we, we had some pretty good meads. Lorton: Yeah. Well, there's always… Bixby: Hot or not. I mean it was never blasting. Lorton: Yeah. There's always, always more meads. You end up with a whole bunch leftover when we’re done. Bixby: Yeah, because I tried to collect not just the ones on my travels, but some of the competition meads, even the ones where when we had the homebrew competitions. Then they were like unknown cause I never got the printout to say number whatever is such and such. So we just opened them. I still have a few for this year from last year’s competitions. 22 23 Downtown Johnny Brown’s is a sports bar in downtown San Diego that was an early supporter of craft beer. According to the Bay Area Society of Homebrewers, the first AHA Mead Day was 2002. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 16 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON Lorton: 00:35:57 TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Yeah. So, you know, if we have a, if there's a competition, you know, the idea is submit two bottles. If yours is the best in your category and there's three to five categories, then that best in that category will go on and compete for the best of show. But everything else is just a second bottle, looking for a home. Bixby: [Inaudible] was my home for a long time. Downie: There's the advantage to having it at your house. Bixby: Well I didn't drink them, I saved them so we could share. Cause you never, you didn't know what they were. Lorton: At your house. It was better than being at my house. Bixby: Oh maybe so. Lorton: But yeah. And it was good because I think at the time, and we’re still doing this. There are quite a few people who are interested in being mead judges and it's good to look at “Well, this mead isn't quite so good for this reason. It's too hot and too, you know, too alcoholic” Bixby: Or no flavor. Lorton: Yeah. Things like that. So, but yeah, you know, I'm trying to remember if it was at someplace besides your place when we first got started. Bixby: 00:37:11 I don't know. I can't remember that. That's too far off. But I know I did it because Bix was into making beer and mead making was similar to wine making. So, it interested me. And so, I started making mead. Link: With your daughter? Bixby: You know, actually I, I know I did it before, but the only mead my daughter and I ever made was in 2000 there's one bottle left. I have no idea how it tastes. I hate to open it without her. If she could ever come to Mead Day, I would open it. But she helped formulate the recipe. Downie: 00:37:54 So good. Rich, have you ever done mead or cider? Link: 00:37:56 Yeah, I did a few. It wasn't something that I really wanted to do much of because I didn't drink a lot of mead. It was tough for me to, it was just tough to drink that much mead. Yeah. Bixby: 00:38:15 Are you a wine maker? I mean a wine drinker at all? You are? Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 17 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON Link: 00:38:20 TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Yeah. Bixby: You are. Lorton: I am not. Link: It is a lot easier for me to drink a bottle of wine than it was for mead. Mead was just too much. Lorton: 00:38:28 Yeah. I'm kind of the same way. You know, I go through periods when, “Oh, that mead really tastes good. I need to make some.” And then I, you know, I've made a whole bunch and okay and I've got to get rid of these bottles, you know, and… Bixby: 00:38:45 No, I agree. When your palate has tasted so many things, I've gone through stages too. So you know, maybe I'm into a hop mood and maybe I'm not, you know, or something like that. Lorton: 00:38:57 Well, and for me, I have a beer with dinner and there aren't many foods that don't go well with beer, but there are a lot of foods that don't go well with wine or mead. Bixby: 00:39:09 That's interesting. Cause I remember when all this pairing stuff, remember when they were into the pairing and the food and the beer dinners and so on. And that was one of the things I heard right from the beginning. The guys, the chefs, saying not the drinkers, but the chefs would say, yeah, they had an easier time with the beer. Lorton: 00:39:30 Yeah. What kind of wine or me goes best with a hamburger or what kind of pizza goes best with wine? Downie: 00:39:40 Well, I have to say when I was in the Craft Beer Expo last September and did the chocolate and beer pairing with Bill Sysak. Saturday morning at 9:00 AM, I'm sitting there with chocolate and beer in front of me going, “This is something real wrong, cause I'm not that big a beer drinker.” But Bill made the argument that the carbonation in beer actually because it cuts through the fatty of the foods, makes for a better drink with any food. Link: 00:40:10 That’s why it’s so much better with cheese than wine is, you know, the whole wine thing is wine and cheese. Well no, it doesn't work as well as beer. Downie: 00:40:18 And with wine, until you get into this whole, you've got red, you've got white, you've got these very distinct strong categories where with beer there seems to be a, because of the hops and things, there seem to be a Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 18 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 more consistent thread through it. So, it just seems to be more all-purpose maybe, I am not explaining it very well. Lorton: 00:40:36 Well, I mean there's so many, I mean beer is such a much more diverse than wine. Link: 00:40:42 I've had arguments with wine makers about that. Oh you know, wine does this. So there's so many variations. And I said, okay, let's just talk about beer, the different kinds of malts, the different kinds of hop, different kinds of yeast. It's like infinite. Yeah, it's, it's truly infinite. Wine. Like you said, you got your reds and whites, you got blends and stuff, but they only got about five or six different categories. Really. Bixby: 00:41:12 That was fun for me to watch. The homebrewing community really affect what we drink now because the guys had no limits. And so, we had people making beer with Jolly Ranchers or something from the grocery store, cereal bins, or something like that.24 And then these ideas just kind of, I think progress and what the creativity is, was part of the whole thing. That's what I love. And then of course the gadgetry, I was in love with the gadgetry. Oh my gosh you guys… Link: There were a lot of engineers and scientists that brew. Bixby: It was beautiful. That's what I love. I did love that part. That so much. Lorton: Bixby: 24 25 00:41:56 Yeah. And you see that in commercial brewing now. I mean, if you look at the new things that the brewers are making, you know, I went to a golf and beer festival a couple of weeks ago or a couple of months ago, eight breweries where there, you know, Stone, Mother Earth, Mike Hess, Latitude 33, five of those eight had a citrus IPA. You know, three years ago how many citrus IPAs were out there? Ballast Point was there with Grapefruit Sculpin. Latitude 33 had their Blood Orange IPA. Stone had Tangerine IPA, but three years ago, how many citrus IPAs were out there, and then all these new things are coming along. Man, that Blood Orange IPA from Latitude 33 is so good. Went up to Double Peak a couple of weeks ago and came back to a Japanese restaurant, a sushi bar, and they had, you know, Asahi, Kirin, Sapporo and this “blood orange stuff that we can't get rid of.”25 “Oh, I'll take that one. Is that from Latitude 33?” “I don't know I’ll check. Yes, it's from Latitude 33.” Interesting. Hard candy in intense fruit flavors. Double Peak Park in San Marcos, California. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 19 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Downie: 00:43:17 Interesting that they wouldn't. Of course when somebody goes to a sushi restaurant, they probably want to drink culturally appropriate beer. Lorton: 00:43:24 This was in San Marcos, not far from where, you know, Homebrew Mart, whatever, Beer and Wine Crafts was located. Bixby: It’s San Diego County after all. Lorton: Oh man, it went so well, I had tempura so… Link: Are you grasping the hops nowadays? I ‘cause we used to have… Lorton: Yeah. Link: You know, arguments. I really mean ‘cause I would hop my beers. Bixby: You two would? Link: Well exceedingly hoppy and you know, and it was way too hoppy for Greg. Lorton: I would like a beer with a little bit of diacetyl in it. Link and Bixby: Oh no! Lorton: A little bit is a lot. This guy, if you open a beer with that in it in the room… Bixby: He said it a long time ago and it sticks in my mind. Link: I'm across the room going alright, who opened that up? Get that outta here! Lorton: Yeah, you and Skip. Well I normally like Belgian beers. I like non-hoppy beers, but if I'm going to have a pizza, it's got to be an IPA. you know, I really like a hoppy beer with pizza or hot chili. Downie: Spicy. Lorton: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't found a wine yet that goes well with those, but, and I haven't looked real hard either. But you know, for a beer like for a food like pizza or chili and I really kinda want a hoppy beer. Link: Chiantis, the Sangiovese with Pizza Hut. [Laughter] Bixby: There you go. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 20 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Lorton: Oh man. Your masculinity is just gone into that. [Laughter] Yeah. I stopped being a wine person as soon as I discovered homebrewing. I haven't had a wine in at least a year. Bixby: Oh, I’m afraid I am an all-purpose drinker. Downie: Since you have made wine… Bixby: It depends on it, whatever my mood is. Sometimes I am in the mood for hops… Link: I don't discriminate against any alcohol. Bixby: Nor do I. Lorton: I don't have any wine in my house. Bixby: A good single malt scotch sometimes that’s what you want. Lorton: I’ve got a bottle of Laphroaig and Balmore in my refrigerator. I like them cool. But, uh, no wine. Bixby: Oh dear. Link: 00:45:45 So where did we leave off on the QUAFF? Downie: 00:45:48 My questions were fairly generic here, so I'm just kind of looking. You've talked about the growth of the membership, which I think really says something. I do have other QUAFF past-presidents like Peter Zien to talk to yet, but it sounds like you are still members of a very strong supportive community and you know, you're very open minded too, except for that one thing that you've talked about that you could smell it across the room. It sounds like you're a super smeller. Lorton: Diacetyl, it’s butter, it’s buttery aroma. Downie: Okay. Lorton: Really good. Bixby: For me, it’s skunky. I’ll get the skunkiness out of anything, I hate it. Link: Great on popcorn. Not so good in beer. Lorton: But I mean Rich is one of these people that is, yeah… Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 21 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Bixby: 00:46:37 You know the thing you said about supportive, I think the key that I've always found with QUAFF. Supportive, not just in the, oh, who needs help brewing, but just in other ways too. When my husband died, I knew if I needed something…I'm usually, I'm a loner and I'll do it myself kind of thing. But I knew if I really needed something, I could call on somebody and I had many offers. So, I think that's, that's what it became, well, I mean, I said it in Sheldon’s movie.26 QUAFF to me was always a family, like a second family. Lorton: 00:47:16 I, then one thing that Rich brings is, I mean you've been all over the world tasting beer and you know, you can talk about places in Brussels to go if you want a good beer. Places, you know… Bixby: The knowledge you mean? Lorton: Yeah. Just, well experiencing those beers at the source. You know, for me, my favorite beer city is Bamberg, Germany. Bixby: You like those malt beers. Lorton: I like it. You know, the majority of the breweries there don't make smoked beers, but you know, they all make good beer and but yeah, I do love the smoked beer. I mean almost as much as buttery beer. Downie: 00:48:03 Where do you stand on smoked beer Rich? Link: 00:48:06 I like it. Okay. Oh yeah. You do have common ground there somewhere. Lorton: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Link: I mean there isn't a beer style that I hate unless they put cucumber in it. [Laughter] Bixby: 00:48:22 I might have to agree with you on that. Like cucumber water. Link: 00:48:25 I haven't figured that one out yet. Downie: That does sound like it would be a mistake. Link: Yeah. But I see it on the shelves now. Bixby: Oh dear. Oh you do? The movie referred to is SUDS County, USA, (2012), produced by Sheldon Kaplan about the San Diego craft beer industry. 26 Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 22 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Link: Yeah. Not kidding. Lorton: I'm trying to remember if at that beer festival I had one with cucumber in it. In the competitions, I usually like to judge what we call weird beers, which is fruit beers, spice or vegetable beers, specialty. And occasionally you run into a cucumber. But I've had some cucumber beers lately. They weren't bad, but cucumber is not my favorite. I guess that's a vegetable I don’t know and uh, yeah, it's not, I've never made one with cucumber in it. Bixby: 00:49:05 I like cucumbers but not in water and probably would not like it in beer. Link: 00:49:09 People like it. And that's fine. Bixby: I’ve had asparagus beer that I thought was… Link: WOW. wow. Bixby: No, I know when I saw it the guys were saying this is at GABF and so, ”You have to try this, you have to try that.”27 Oh, okay. And then it was done perfectly. It's like how do you get asparagus in a beer and not have it like be yucky or something? Although it did have the same effect after the fact, as eating asparagus, unfortunately. [laughter] Lorton: Thank you. TMI.28 I’ve never had an asparagus beer. Or spinach Bixby: It’s interesting, the different beers, you know, you run into at GABF when you're, when you're working in the back with all the beers. A job. I like. Lorton: Oh wow. Link: 00:49:58 Bixby: Link: I remember an early QUAFF meeting and the guy brought in a beer that he brewed based on some historical reading. He had dug up with bananas. And he brought it up and we're tasting it. I'm going, “Oh my God. You know, I've done everything I can to get banana tastes and flavors out of my beers. Why would you intentionally put it in?” That’s really interesting. 00:50:28 Historical significance? Okay. Don’t like it. Lorton: I've heard that. Bixby: Not on that Sumerian tablet, I’m sure. 27 28 Great American Beer Festival, Denver Colorado. Too much information. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 23 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Downie: A sacrifice for historical research. Well, there actually is in ancient Greece, if a woman was having trouble nursing a child after birth, there was a recipe involving worms crushed up in beer to correct the situation. Bixby: Oh, that's interesting. They could have minused the worms. I'm sure she would have been happier. Downie: Yeah. Maybe. Maybe the worms were to keep her from drinking too much. I don't know, but… Bixby: Maybe that's a good point. Lorton: 00:51:08 You know, probably 15 years ago we were talking about cock ale. Randy Barnes made a beer with chicken in it and it wasn't very good. He said, well, okay, I made the cock ale and Randy, he's the guy who's the vice president of educational services with a community college district. Bixby: He’s the dean or something. Lorton: Yeah, he's the kind of guy who would do it. He's the guy who you'd never expect is a professional, if you ever ran into him. Bixby: That's right. Lorton: If, but I, yeah and he’s really… Bixby: Creative. Lorton: And he's really smart and with a sense of humor that just would never stop. Link: 00:51:51 Jim Koch told me about doing that once their little brewery back in Boston.29 A pilot brewery. It wasn't so good. Downie: Yeah, it doesn't… Link: Throwing in chickens into the… Bixby: I can't even, why would you even consider that? Downie: Any meat product does not sound like it would… Owner of Boston Beer Company which makes Sam Adams beer. This is a bit of sarcasm in referencing “their little brewery.” 29 Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 24 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Link: There is some historical significance about it, which I couldn't even grasp. Lorton: Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, that's a good, I don't know. Link: Cause you know he based a lot of things on historical significance. Lorton: Yeah. Yeah. Bixby: Oh, I am going to have to read up on that now. Chicken and beer and see what I get. Lorton: 00:52:34 Cock Ale. Ask Randy. He would probably recall. Bixby: Why he would do, I don't know about the historical, maybe he would. Lorton: Well yeah, I can't remember how we got onto that, but it was enough that it kind of sustained itself for a couple months. Downie: 00:52:50 That's something I'm seeing here in your stories is the fact that you're supportive of each other, that you've kept in touch with each other, that you've had fun. Bixby: 00:53:03 Oh my gosh. I don't know about these guys, but I had a blast probably, you know, I'm, I married a guy who was kinda quiet, not a social kind of person. In fact, even now when I'm thinking about him after a couple, you know, a year and a half, it's like I look up, you know, Asperger's in adults. I go, that sounds like my man. No, he just was not a social kind of guy, but QUAFF, there was a home for him in QUAFF and everybody seemed to accept him and he felt, you know, quote end quote loved there, whatever you want to call it. That was just the right place to be. I mean, it just, for us as geeky, nerdy, whatever you want to call us, we fit. Lorton: 00:53:45 Well, and the other thing is that, you know, one of the reasons I really like making beer as opposed to making wine is that when I was married, I had a brother-in-law who was a real wine snob and he was a spirits snob, and you know, it was, it just grated on me. And you know, beer people aren't like that. Well, you know, most beer people aren't. Bixby: 00:54:13 But do you think so? I don't think they are. Link: There are some, but yeah, there's you know… Lorton: There are a few that say, well, I'm not going to drink that. Bixby: 00:54:23 Even the women who drink wine a lot, they’ll drink beer now and then. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 25 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON Link: 00:54:27 TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Any, aspect of, like cheese or hamburger, anything. People are purist people. Yeah. Lorton: You have people in QUAFF who will say, “I'm not gonna drink a Ballast Point beer because they're owned by Constellation Brands. Or I'm not going to buy a…”, you know, yeah. Downie: Well, that can go back to when gas hit a dollar a gallon. People saying, “I'm not buying any more gas. Well, I'd like to see you try.” Lorton: 00:54:56 That’s the nice thing, in beer is a much more community, you know, it, it's… Bixby: 00:55:01 I'm not sure what it is across the country ‘cause I don't know anywhere else, but San Diego and I just feel they've been cooperative and giving. Lorton: 00:55:12 I think it’s like that in most places, yeah. Link: Mm-hum. Bixby: 00:55:14 I mean, I know when I've traveled all these years with Bix, we always of course, stopped at breweries nearby, right. If not aimed towards them specifically. That if you start talking to the guys, and I always like just sitting at the bar talking to who brews this. And then pretty soon somebody comes out. Oh, let me show you my tanks. And it's usually, like Peter, and like AleSmith started out with dairy tanks or something and I, and I had to weld this and I had to do that and I go, Oh yeah. So that's just a different… Lorton: 00:55:50 It's like that all over the country. It, and it was funny because when I was teaching business classes that you'd have marketing people who didn't know beer saying, well, you know, there's not a lot of cooperation among competitors in an industry. And I say, well, you need to look at the brewing industry because you know, like, when there was a hop shortage eight years ago, you know, some brewers were giving hops to others or selling at a low price to allow them to continue. Sam Adams was selling hops, at their, you know, their costs as opposed to what the price was. You know, when there was the hop shortage. Bixby: Oh, cause they had the option. Link: Well, they bought futures, future contracts. Lorton: I mean, look at all the homebrew clubs. I was looking at the names of some of those clubs, like Brewers United for Real Potables in Virginia, the Greater Denver Yeast Infection and you know, Maltose Falcons and, you know, playing on the Maltese Falcon. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 26 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Bixby: That’s a good one. Lorton: There’s Foam on the Brain here. And you know, QUAFF there, there's so many funny names that Strange Brew in Oregon, you know, and in all kinds, Urban Knaves of Grain, in Chicago. Yeah, I mean there's so many funny names, so. Yeah. And that's because that's how brewers are. They, you know, Hey, you know, this is fun. You know, we're not taking it too seriously. We are, you know, really studying, brewing, but it's for fun, you know. Bixby: Seems you know, that'd be a good lesson all over. Link: 00:57:42 Lorton: I think is just more of a social fun drink than spirits. If I'm going to go to a place where I'm going to have a drink with other people and I have to go home, I'm going to have a beer. I'm not going to have a, you know, scotch on the rocks, you know, I'm not gonna to do that, you know? Bixby: 00:58:01 Well, there is a group that would do that. You know, what do they think about, you know, my martini for dinner and scotch after or… Lorton: 00:58:11 Beer seems like it's a much more sociable drink that let's go have a beer. Bixby: More for the common man and we're all just common man. I don’t know, I don’t know what the deal is. Lorton: You know, maybe a lower alcohol and a… Link: Yes, lower alcohol. You get a pint. You can drink for a half hour or more and still drive home. Lorton: Even if your home is like a mile away or so. Link: Yeah, right up there. Bixby: 00:58:35 Mine is max 10 minutes. And that's taking the slow road here. Lorton: 00:58:42 Well, yeah, I was gonna say when I went to Mead Day last year, I came here first and then I got on the road and I was driving and some guy’s really slow SUV or something or a Leer truck. Oh, it's Teresa and Rich. Oh, they're going to the same place I’m going. Link: 00:59:03 It was after a day at Mead Day we decided to stop here. Yeah. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 27 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON Lorton: TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Well I did it before, which was probably a little bit of a mistake. Yeah. Downie: 00:59:15 Well, one final thing I'd like to ask about…the increase of women in brewing, are you seeing that reflected in the membership in QUAFF? Link: 00:59:28 I can't talk to that cause I haven't been to a QUAFF meeting. Bixby: I would, I would say no. I mean I belong to SUDS. Downie: The San Diego sorority. Bixby: Yeah. Yeah. And those women are not involved in commercial brewing. They are, it's not like the Pink Boots, it's more that they want to do their own thing. They know what they're doing and like, they do know what they're doing in spite of what you guys might think, <interjected denials from Link and Lorton> these girls do know what they're doing. In fact, I was, you know, it's really interesting cause when Juli first, Juli Goldenberg, first came up with the idea for this group, she talked at a QUAFF meeting and I said, “Oh shoot, you know, I grew up in the 60s we'd marched for equal rights, we burned our bras, we did all this kind of stuff.30 And why do we want to separate, you know, why do we want it something separate?” And Harold, I know I mentioned that to Harold, he goes, why don’t you just get involved in that? Why don't you see what they're all about? Cause something, I dunno what it was that he saw. So I thought. Okay. And I went and I was really impressed because they knew what they wanted to do. He knew about brewing, they had been brewing, they just wanted a group that wasn't going to be intimidating. And I went to a talk when we had our last <inaudible> conference here was in 2015 and it was about women. And that whole idea was a panel discussion on, I thought it was absolutely excellent cause there were groups of women from different women's groups across the country talking about that whole idea. And one other woman my age, as she appeared to be, got up and said, “Why do we want to be separated” and I go, “Oh gosh, that's what I voiced.” Bixby: 01:01:39 But then the group panel kind of, you know, said because when we do stuff with the guys they want to take over, you know, it's a natural… Link: You’re a minority. It's tougher. Bixby: Thank you very much. Lorton: Well, no, no true. 30 San Diego Suds Sorority, a women-only home brewer group formed within QUAFF. AKA SDSS (pronounced Suds). Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 28 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Bixby: In the brewing community. Yes. Not in life. Okay, that's true. So it's like what do we know about the science or the whole art of brewing? And they said this way, you know, we have this, this separateness that we can kind of teach each other and have this open kind of a... And one of the ladies said, “All guys were asking if they could come and join. Yes, you can come and be part of it, but you have to sit over there and be eye candy.” <laughter> Link: And don’t talk. Bixby: Yeah. And if we need something lifted. Downie: I was going to say there might be something of the chivalry aspect where that's big as, you're a little woman and let me help you with that. Bixby: But I thought that was a very interesting topic and it was pertinent too. And I, since I joined the SDSS and have been part of that, I've been totally impressed with the beers that come out of there. And the girls, they're just, they're fun. Lorton: 01:02:59 Yeah. Well, if you look at who won this year at International Beer Festival, I mean Liz Chism is the brewer at Council.31 She's the one who made the beer that won. And… Bixby: 01:03:11 it's nice that her husband Curtis really makes a point of that is not, he's not intimidated. So for me he has a lot of… Lorton: 01:03:20 Well it was a little bit of a mind change too for me that, ‘cause I thought Curtis was the brewer. Bixby: 01:03:29 I knew from the beginning. Lorton: 01:03:30 He clarified that with me. That Liz is the one who brews, she's the one who makes the recipes. Bixby: So that's very impressive. She's very good at… Lorton: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've judged with both of them and she definitely, I mean it was clear that she really understands. Bixby: 31 32 01:03:46 I don’t know, I don't see, I mean I don't know what Pink Boots says.32 I know there's women in the industry, but as far as home brewing, I don't see a big enough presence in QUAFF. And I don't know if it's intimidation. I San Diego International Beer Festival. Council Brewing Company in San Diego. Pink Boots Society, an organization for women and non-binary individuals in the fermentation industries. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 29 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 don't think so. I don't, I think it's like what's more important in your life? What's going on? Do you need to… Link: ; The time that you have available, its pretty easy to go order a beer. Bixby: You know, a guy is going to go out, that's his thing. You know, where a woman might say I got, especially if she has kids and then she's got a job and then she's got a house and I'm sorry guys. But it's still that way you're as the female, you're still the one that, because it's your nest and it's, and that's okay. It's just, you know, when I was growing up it's like gender equality, course, you know, I will always be for financial equality, but you know, these days there is no gender equality. We are different and that's okay. And once we get past that then we can go on. Lorton: 01:04:53 Well, you know, before the Industrial Revolution, women were the ones who made beer. You know, that was part… Bixby: 01:05:00 That way before, cause you guys were doing the, catching those mammoths and whatever else you guys, you know. Lorton: 01:05:09 So you know, that was their job. I think. Yeah, it's unfortunate. I think that, you know, there is this, still you know, homebrewing is still predominantly a male kind of thing. The other thing that I think is surprising, and I didn't realize this until after I'd started all grain brewing is I'm essentially cooking, you know? Yeah. Here I am in the kitchen, slaving over a hot stove. <laughter> I'm cooking. So, yeah. And you know, and I realize, I'm creating recipes thinking, okay... <brief interruption by the server.> Downie: You did want your crowler. Don’t forget. Bixby: Oh that’s right, cause I'm going to the meeting tomorrow. Lorton: Oh, and for Mead Day, I went to a new meadery last week in Vista. Bixby: Which one? Lorton: Twisted Horn. Bixby: I've heard of that. How was it? Lorton: Yeah, they had some good meads. I'm waiting for Billy to open his meadery.33 Bixby: 33 Me too. Billy Beltz, owner of Lost Cause Meadery. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 30 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Lorton: …and he's going to be in Miramar. That's going to be something. Link: What’s the name of it? Lorton: Lost Cause. Link: Isn’t there another meadery just opened there? Lorton: Well, Twisted Horn. Oh, it's Serendipity Cider is there. Bixby: He’s in the same spot is as... Lorton: And I think he's been having some regulatory problems, but there are four meaderies. There's also one called Mediocrity. Bixby: 01:06:51 Yeah. And then the Bronto group guys. Lorton: Oh, I haven't heard that one. Bixby: Yeah, they're not making good stuff. Mediocrity is okay. Lorton: I have not tried theirs. Bixby: They're like up in there. They're okay. Link: Are they like mediocre? <laughter> Bixby: I don't know why somebody would choose that name. Lorton: We were talking about how about Black Plague as a name for a brewery?34 Link: Yeah. Bixby: I'm not sure where these guys come up with this stuff, but… Lorton: 01:07:18 Well, Twisted Horn is a big Viking thing. And they're in the area with all the Vista breweries. Bixby: Were they on the sweet side or no, is Viking sweet? Lorton: No, they were semi-sweet. But they had, you know, they had like, it was posted Horn Mead and Cider and I only tried the meads but they had probably six meads to choose from. The one I liked the best was a 34 Black Plague Brewing Company, opened in Oceanside in Jully 2017. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 31 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 blueberry melomel, but they had various collections. I'll bring some, I'll stop by there and get a small growler to bring by. But yeah, on Lost Cause, I mean when they get situated there's going to be five breweries and meaderies literally across the street from each other.35 Bixby: And sake. Lorton: Okay. Yeah. Cause I mean Two Kids, Align, what’s that, Thunderhawk? And there’s another one, Projector? Bixby: I know. Downie: There's Protector. Link: Protector. That’s the one, they're not a meadery? Lorton: I don't think they are. Bixby: Protector. Now see that's not one I have heard of. I can't keep up. These guys are moving too fast. Lorton: 01:08:32 Well yeah, I've got to talk with my son cause my son likes to make mead and… Bixby: 01:08:38 Oh, his son made the best. I'm sorry, I'm sorry Greg, but his bouchet was wonderful. Lorton: Bouchet is a mead that's made from caramel from sugar that's been, or honey that's been carmelized. Downie: Ooh. Bixby: 01:08:55 And you know I tasted one at Mike Buck’s. Mike Buck made one that was really good too. Lorton: Yeah. I made one. But it was kind of underdone. Bixby: Yeah, your son's was… Lorton: Yeah, he made a good one. It was distinctive. Bixby: I can definitely remember one. Mine just tasted really good at the beginning, getting at all those bubblegum flavors and all that. And then it just dissipated. Okay. That's not non distinct. 35 The street referred to is Miralani Drive in San Diego. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 32 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Lorton: Right. Unfortunately, mine is gone, long gone, so I don't know what… Bixby: Mine's gone too. Lorton: That tastes like. But yeah, that area, that Miralani Drive is… Bixby: I know and it's getting… Link: 01:09:38 Oh, they're all organic.36 Organic. Lorton: Okay. Downie: Yeah. I was just looking at them last night. Bixby: Oh dear. So what’s not organic about honey? Lorton: True. Link: They’re not a meadery, they’re a brewery. Bixby: Oh. Oh. Downie: And probably the biggest challenge is organic hops. Bixby: 01:10:02 Oh, that makes sense. So is anybody doing that locally? Organic hops? I mean, how many local hops growers do we have? We have Star B…37 Lorton: Well, I would guess I met with a guy from Star B one time and we were talking about you know, meads, but you know, it wouldn't surprise me. 38 And there's an article in West Coaster I think this month about Star B also. Bixby: Is there? Lorton: Yeah. Get the West Coaster here. Bixby: Is it in there? Lorton: 01:10:34 Yeah. Okay. But yeah, you know, I think one of the interesting things is, you know, looking at businesses and that's one thing that I've been trying to Referring to Protector Brewery. Star B is a ranch and hop farm in Ramona, California. 38 Probably referring to Eric March who was an owner. 36 37 Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 33 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 study a lot is you know, what's the factors lead to success in business. And you know, we see that, okay, apparently Lightning is selling all their stuff.39 Bixby: 01:11:01 Yeah. I don't know what, Jim, I think is too academic or…40 Lorton: No marketing at all. Bixby: Yeah. I think, I mean, he was a great brewer and all that and I loved it. He was a great guy. Lorton: 01:11:11 But did you see Intergalactic is looking at maybe getting it, you need to get the West Coaster.41 Downie: 01:11:18 And the Intergalactic website is saying that they are definitely taking a different direction, whether it's to close or… Bixby: Lorton: No kidding. 01:11:26 There's an article on it. Link: I heard that last Friday Lorton: And you know, I think the way to go in the future is just do it small. You know, don't they expect to conquer the world? Bixby: 01:11:40 You mean don't start thinking Ballast Point billion dollars-ish. I think that's going to do you in, ‘cause we are San Diego and you would like some of our local, um… Lorton: 01:11:53 There's also an interview with Jim Crute in that and he says if he was ever to get back in the business it would be as a nanobrewery making a small amount of beer for a localized customer base. Bixby: 01:12:07 Like, like local English pub kind of thing made locally. Link: Like this here.42 Bixby: Oh well like, yeah, they don't want to screw this up because this is too close to my house. And I know it's a bit like, I don't even have to go to Santee. I'm right here. Lightning Brewery in Poway, California. Jim Crute, owner of Lightning Brewery. 41 Intergalactic Brewing Company. The West Coaster was a local beer-focused publication. Its online presence has been archived at https://archives.csusm.edu/westcoastersd/. 42 Referring to Burning Beard. 39 40 Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 34 2024-04 �RICH LINK, MARIANNE BIXBY, AND GREG LORTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2017-07-09 Lorton: Like I was telling Judith that El Cajon was pretty much a beer desert. Bixby: Oh, you don't even go there. I know how many times I was like, “Oh, the Bostonia Ballroom, that huge building there.43 I thought that's a great place for some fun.” Well, no, now I don't know what they're doing over there. Link: Yeah, that area is… Bixby: Don't say that. There's where I live. I don't know what's going on in that area. Link: It’s a commercial area. Bixby: I mean, I don't know what's happening with El Cajon in general. Lorton: It’s a great place to visit, but not to live. <laughter> Bixby: Find me a house in La Mesa so I can walk to a coffee. Lorton: Yeah. But you’re east of that, right? You're closer to Alpine than anybody else here. Bixby: 01:13:10 Yeah. I am close to Alpine. Bixby: 01:13:13 Yeah. I used to go the Breadbasket all the time when before it was Alpine Brewing. Lorton: Is that right? Bixby: Yeah. Downie: 43 01:13:26 Well, at this point I'm going to end our recording and I want to thank you all for the time and the stories. This has been absolutely fascinating. I'm filling in some of the gaps and given me leads of more people to go chase down for more histories. Building erected in 1932 on Broadway in El Cajon, California and noted for hosting country music performances. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 35 2024-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Link, Rich, Mary Anne Bixby, and Greg Lorton. Interview transcript. July 9, 2017. Description An account of the resource <span><strong>Rich Link, Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton</strong> are all early members of <strong>Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (QUAFF)</strong>, a San Diego area homebrewing group. In this interview, Link, Bixby, and Lorton discuss their introduction to craft beer, early home brewing experiences, QUAFF, various local breweries, mead, and womens’ participation in homebrewing. None have worked in the industry professionally, but all are certified beer judges and Lorton and Bixby also judge mead competitions.</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Link</strong> wrote for the&nbsp;</span><em>Celebrator Beer News</em><span>&nbsp;magazine on the Southern California beer scene and his experiences visiting European breweries. He served several terms as QUAFF President. He is a certified beer judge.</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Lorton</strong> served as QUAFF Newsletter editor and President. (He has provided a separate oral history.)</span><br /><br /><span><span><strong>Bixby</strong>, with her late husband, Horace, switched from wine making to beer making. She belonged to the SDSS (San Diego Suds Sorority) which was a women-only subgroup of QUAFF.<br /></span></span> <p><span data-contrast="auto"><strong>QUAFF</strong> was founded in 1989 for San Diego area homebrewers to learn, improve, and successfully compete with their beers, ciders, meads, and other fermented beverages. The group also assists members with earning national Beer Judge Certification (BJCP) and encourages participation in club-only and external competitions and charity events.&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">QUAFF is noted for sponsoring the America’s Finest City Homebrew Competition. One recipe from the pool of first-place winners considered for Best of Show at this event is selected for production at a local commercial brewery. Participating breweries have included Stone Brewing and AleSmith Brewing. The beers produced include Stone’s Xocovesa, developed by member Chris Banker. The club has garnered awards such as the American Homebrewers Association’s Radegast Award for community involvement and California and National Homebrew Club of the Year Awards, based on competition points earned.&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Dozens of QUAFF members have ‘gone pro’ either finding employment in the beer industry in a variety of positions or opening their own brewery. Some have opened breweries in San Diego County and others have moved either elsewhere in California or out of state.</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span><span data-contrast="auto">As the group has grown, the monthly meetings have moved from member’s homes, to Callahan’s Pub, Karl Strauss Brewery and Gardens, and now meet at The Gärten (Bay Park neighborhood beer garden space shared by Lost Cause Mead, Oddish Wine, and Deft Brewing.)&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span data-contrast="auto">Their website is found at </span><a href="https://quaff.org/"><span data-contrast="none">https://quaff.org/</span></a><span data-contrast="auto">&nbsp;</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:true,&quot;134233118&quot;:true}">&nbsp;</span></p> <span>This recording was made on the front exterior patio of Burning Beard Brewery in El Cajon; there are periods of traffic noise which interfered with recording.</span> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rich Link Mary Anne Bixby Greg Lorton Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Ernest Cisneros Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-09 Subject The topic of the resource Home brewing -- California -- San Diego County Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (San Diego, Calif.) Women brewers -- California -- San Diego County Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LinkRich_BixbyMaryAnne_LortonGreg_DownieJudith_2017-07-09_transcript Brewchive(r) Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dora Luevano OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LuevanoDora_BeyerJason_2025-11-6.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Luevano, Dora. Interview November 6th, 2025 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veteran U.S. Marine Corps Corporal San Francisco (Calif.) San Salvador (El Salvador) Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Dora Luevano Jason Beyer Moving Image LuevanoDora_BeyerJason_2025-11-6.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f521e4bb2ad98141aead0a88138f8bc3.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and Military Background Dora Luevano was a corporal in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War. United States Marine Corps ; corporal ; Vietnam 0 54 Childhood and Immigration to the United States Luevano was born in San Salvador, El Salvador, where she lived in poverty and was raised by her grandmother. Her father immigrated to the U.S. and worked on shipyards. At age nine, Luevano was sent to live with her father and later was joined by her grandmother, who continued to help raise her. Luevano became a U.S. citizen and spent the rest of her childhood in San Francisco. She described her father as “extremely strict,” which motivated her to enlist in the Marine Corps after graduating from high school. San Salvador (El Salvador) ; United States ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; mesón ; mesones ; El Salvador ; school ; children ; sister ; grandmother ; father 0 271 Work, School, Family Life, and Military Enlistment Luevano described working multiple jobs after graduating from high school, yet she could not afford college tuition. Her father refused to sign required forms for her enlistment in the Marine Corps, so her grandmother signed the forms as her guardian. high school ; college ; tuition ; job ; Pacific Bell Telephone Company ; long distance operator ; Market Street (San Francisco) ; Marine Corps 0 439 Early Military Experience and Training Unlike most of her peers, Luevano enjoyed bootcamp and adapted to military life easily. She enjoyed marches and military training. Many of her peers went AWOL or struggled to complete tasks. Luevano was proud when she completed her training and believes she “made something” of herself despite the challenges of her upbringing. Her first assignment after basic training was in the 24 Area at Camp Pendleton, where she processed deceased servicemembers, collected their personal effects, and wrote letters to their family and loved ones. Most of the deceased were young Marines serving in the Vietnam War. Luevano met her husband at the warehouse she worked at. Her husband served in the Marines for 16 years, and the two of them were together for 60 years until his recent passing. According to Luevano, she would have happily continued a career in the Marine Corps, but contemporary rules forced her out of military service when she got married and had a child. bootcamp ; AWOL ; Absent Without Leave ; Reveille ; South Carolina ; drill instructor ; commanding officer ; San Salvador ; military ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; 24 Area (Camp Pendleton) ; office ; deceased ; letter ; warehouse ; Vietnam ; husband ; Camp Lejeune (N.C.) ; Marine Corps ; corporal 0 914 Adapting to Military Life and Social Experiences Luevano adapted easily to taking orders in the military because of her strict upbringing. She says she loved her military service and “got along with everyone” at Camp Pendleton. Male Marines flirted with her, and female Marines teased her and called her “Boot.” Luevano says she made lots of friends, and her social skills helped her professional career. strict ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Navy ; Marine ; New York (United States) ; mess hall ; cancer 0 1137 Military Service During the Vietnam War Luevano described processing deceased servicemembers, many of whom were deployed to Vietnam and younger than 20 years old. She handled the deceased’s personal belongings to ensure that family members and loved ones would not be upset by anything they received. By the time Luevano was forced out of military service, the warehouse she worked in was filled with boxes of the deceased’s belongings. Vietnam ; California (United States) ; letters ; 24 Area ; warehouse ; office ; deceased 0 1266 End of Military Service and Transition to Civilian Life Luevano was forced out of the Marine Corps when she got married and had her first child. Her husband continued his military service, so she always felt close to military life. Her most difficult experience was living with her father and two children in San Francisco while pregnant with her third child and away from her husband, who deployed in Vietnam for 14 months. She was always worried that her husband would not return. Luevano described how she was received by friends and family after her military service. Her father was proud of her accomplishments as a Marine, mother, and business owner. Luevano is grateful to God and her military training for her success. married ; Fallbrook (Calif.) ; Las Vegas (Nev.) ; apartment ; pregnant ; child ; daughter ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; Vietnam ; husband ; family ; community ; barracks ; business ; Marine Corps ; gunnery sergeant ; gunny ; California (United States) 0 1739 Civilian Education and Work Experience Luevano used her G.I. Bill to graduate from CSU San Bernardino, and her husband graduated from the same university while serving in the Marine Corps. Luevano used her degree to find work as a rehab counselor. She eventually bought the company that she worked for and became financially successful. Later in life, Luevano and her husband sold their real estate and became missionaries in the Philippines for three years. They loved the Philippines but returned back to the U.S. when her husband’s health declined. husband ; college ; G.I. Bill ; Marine Corps ; California State University San Bernardino ; rehab counselor ; Palm Desert (Calif.) ; Indio (Calif.) ; Palm Springs (Calif.) ; real estate ; Philippines ; missionaries ; faith ; Vietnam 0 1956 Military Friendships and the Veteran Community The Luevanos maintained some military friendships. Her husband’s close friend, who was a Vietnam War veteran, recently committed suicide. Luevano says her husband stayed connected with his friends, but she was too busy with other responsibilities. Luevano is not a member of any veterans' organizations, but she is recognized by her church on Veterans Day. Marine Corps ; Vietnam ; suicide ; mental issues ; Las Vegas (Nev.) ; church ; Veterans Day ; Navy ; Army 0 2108 How Military Service Shaped Luevano's Life and Worldview Luevano says that military service disciplined her and taught her to finish any task that she started. She always worked hard to achieve her goals and support her family. Luevano also spoke about her husband who recently passed away, her grief, and how his passing has shaped her life today. Marine Corps ; AWOL ; Camp Lejeune (N.C.) ; training ; college ; waitress ; Navy ; school ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Starbucks 0 2323 Message for Future Generations Luevano wants future generations to know that they must join the military with good intentions, because the Marine Corps will not be an “escape hatch.” Military service requires discipline and commitment. She shared some experiences she has had mentoring children, including a neighbor and a young girl from her church. Luevano notes that some young people feel academically entitled to excellent grades that they do not merit. She wants to see young people work hard and be successful. apartment ; church ; boy ; girl ; military ; Marine Corps ; college ; Palomar College (Calif.) ; United States ; volunteer 0 2595 Life Lessons from Military Service Luevano reflects on war movies and how servicemembers sacrifice their lives for a cause. She thinks many young people do not know the cost of freedom and what veterans have sacrificed. Luevano says, “And people lay their lives down for what they believe in in order to keep that to the next generation.” Veterans Day ; movie ; Band of Brothers ; World War I ; World War II ; Vietnam ; Vice President ; JD Vance ; Camp Pendleton 0 2824 Experience with the Veterans History Project Luevano connected with the Veterans History Project at CSUSM through a friend who invited her to an event. North San Diego County ; Vista (Calif.) 0 Oral history Dora Luevano served as a corporal in the U.S. Marine Corps. She was stationed at Camp Pendleton during the Vietnam War. Luevano worked in a warehouse and office, processing deceased servicemembers, collecting their personal effects, and writing letters to their family and loved ones. Luevano described her strict upbringing, immigration to the U.S. as a child from El Salvador, and decision to enlist in the Marine Corps. Luevano was forced out of military service for getting married and having a child, and she reflected on the harsh expectations and regulations that affected women in military service. She spoke about her 60-year marriage to her husband, whom she met in the Marine Corps, and their life together after military service. Luevano described how her civilian life was shaped by her upbringing, religion, military service, education, professional career, business ownership, and husband’s recent passing. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:02.544 --> 00:00:33.195 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of CSUSM (California State University San Marcos). Today is Thursday, November 6th, 2025, and we're conducting this interview in Vista, California with veteran Dora Luevano. Also present is photographer Vyanh Vo. This oral history will help preserve the lived experiences of United States military veterans. Please state your full name. 00:00:33.195 --> 00:00:37.353 Dora Lydia Luevano. 00:00:37.353 --> 00:00:39.064 Your branch of service. 00:00:39.064 --> 00:00:41.265 United States Marine Corps. 00:00:41.265 --> 00:00:43.725 The highest rank that you attained. 00:00:43.725 --> 00:00:47.265 Ah, I hate to say this. Corporal (laughs). 00:00:47.265 --> 00:00:52.125 Please state the war that was happening during your time in service. 00:00:52.125 --> 00:00:54.524 Vietnam. 00:00:54.524 --> 00:01:01.645 Alright, so now we're gonna begin with the introduction portion of the interview. Where were you born? 00:01:01.645 --> 00:01:23.155 I was born in San Salvador, Central America. I came to the United States when I was nine years old. My dad worked for the shipyards in San Francisco, and he arranged it legally for me to come and live here and go to school here. 00:01:23.155 --> 00:01:29.004 What was life like for you when you were in El Salvador? 00:01:29.004 --> 00:03:20.405 Oh, goodness. I was extremely poor. I was raised by my grandmother, and we lived in a section of the country that was—they call 'em "el mesón"—mesones—which is like government housing only nothing like a government—they're mud huts and with a little barbecue pit on the outside for her to cook. A lot of times we didn't have any money for food. That's why my father decided to come to the United States was to take care of me. And so it was—I never went back to El Salvador. I made my life here and I became a US citizen. And I am a patriot through and through. I absolutely love, love the United States. It's been so good to me. It's been good to my whole family. I have six children—not six children—I have three daughters, six grandkids. And they know nothing what poverty is. They're very successful. They have careers. They have degrees. Everything that my husband and I wanted for them, they have become. They're awesome children, daughters. And that wouldn't have happened if I would've lived in El Salvador. You know, I had a sister and I'm pretty sure she's dead by now in El Salvador. So—I could go on, but then it's depressing. Let's go to the good stuff (laughs). 00:03:20.405 --> 00:03:27.145 What was it a hard transition for you when you were in El Salvador and then you came to the United States? Was it a really hard transition for you? 00:03:27.145 --> 00:04:31.004 It was, because I left my grandmother behind, and I came to live alone with my dad who had married. And I didn't know—I met my dad for the first time when I came here when I was nine, 'cause he left me when I was one or two years old. And so I—it was difficult. So my dad sent for my grandmother and brought her over so that she could help to continue to raise me. And I lived in San Francisco all my life. So, San Francisco is divided into sections—my dad did well financially, so he had a nice home. But I had to learn how to be his daughter, because I didn't know him, and my dad was extremely strict, which is why eventually I joined the Marine Corps (laughs) because too much strictness. I graduated from high school and it was—I just wanted to fly. 00:04:31.004 --> 00:04:37.000 What were you doing before you joined the Marine Corps? Like, did you have a job in school or— 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:38.264 —Yeah— 00:04:38.264 --> 00:04:41.000 —were you—was it family life or what was your job like in school—high school? 00:04:41.000 --> 00:07:19.144 When I finished high school, my father said that he would pay for me to go to college. He would give me a hundred dollars. A hundred dollars don't pay no tuition. So I decided I would look for a job. So I worked in a jewelry store. I worked as—in the beginning of computers where they used to have cards with punch holes in them—and I did that. But I couldn't find my place in life. I couldn't—I didn't have a mother, and my grandmother was too old. So I didn't know what to do with myself. So my last job was for Pacific Bell (Pacific Bell Telephone Company) as a long distance operator. They hired me and I worked the night shift, and I still was not happy. I kept thinking, I know I can do better than this. So one day I was coming down Market Street, getting off my shift and going home. And I saw the sign that says, "Join the Marines and see the world." So I thought, I'm gonna do that. So I went the next day, and I said, "I wanna join the Marine Corps." And I said, how soon can I leave? (Luevano laughs.) And they laughed and they said, "Well, as soon as you get your papers for permission from—'cause I was 18—not quite 18, but they wanted the signature from my father. So I gave the form to my dad to sign it, and my father took it and tore it up and said, "I will never approve of this." So I said, "Okay." So I went back to the recruiter and I said, "You know, I am sorry, my dad feels this way. Can I have another form?" (Luevano laughs.) And he goes, "Do you have another guardian?" I said, "My grandma." And I had taught my grandmother how to write, because my grandmother was totally illiterate. She didn't know how to write in those days. She came from the 1800s. So she didn't—she died when she was 101. So my grandmother—I explained to her my desire, and I wanna join the military. And my grandmother said, "Whatever makes you happy, mija." So she's—I held her hand while she wrote her name on the form. I took it over there, and within a month I was gone. And I never looked back. It was the most awesome experience for me. I loved bootcamp! (Luevano laughs.) 00:07:19.144 --> 00:07:28.884 So let's talk about that—your early military experience. What do you remember about your first days in the military in bootcamp? 00:07:28.884 --> 00:11:02.595 In bootcamp. Well, I saw a lot of them go AWOL (Absent Without Leave). I would wake up in the morning at four—whatever the bugler he—I can't remember what hour, but it was extremely—it was still dark outside the—and Reveille would start—and I would look to my right or my left sometimes, and the bunk would be empty. And they had told us when we joined, when we went to bootcamp, that a lot of people try to go AWOL. And there was alligators. This is South Carolina, but they'd try to scare me. It didn't scare me—no. I used to love it. I loved the Marine Corps. One time I was marching, I—you know there was—we were out in the field and marching, and I kept smiling the whole time. And the D.I. (drill instructor) got mad at me and said, "Are you making fun of me?" I said, "No, sir. I love this. You know, I love the marching." (Luevano laughs.) I didn't know military talk or whatever. So he made me—I made him so mad that he sent me to the CO (Commanding Officer). And I went before the CO. And he said, "I hear you're always smiling. Why is that? Are you making fun of the military?" I said, "Ma'am, I'm smiling because I'm so happy to be here." She couldn't believe it. She told me, "Get outta here." And I went back and I finished. I was determined that I had found my niche. A lot of them went AWOL. Even when we graduated—a lot of them—I remember it was so hot. South Carolina was very hot. And, I saw a lot of—some of the girls fainted. I could hear them "plop, plop, plop," you know? And I thought, I will never faint. I'm going to get my wings or whatever, you know. I'm gonna officially be in. And I did. I remember when she put my insignia on the—and I was so happy that I had made something of myself when I had no mom, literally no dad, and a old grandma who said, "Do whatever makes you happy." And, I just, I fit. I found out later that my dad had joined the military when he was a young man in San Salvador. So I figured I'd carry the genes in my veins that made me wanna love it. And if the rules, the regulations, and the laws that weren't in effect then, I would've reenlisted. I was doing really good. I was already a corporal and I—but in those days, if you got married and you had a baby, you had to get out. So they forced me out, you know, out of the military. And I often thought I had to go back and knock on the door and say, "I hear your laws have changed. Can I join?" (Luevano laughs.) I called them. I told them I wanted to work as a counselor, and they told me I was too old. So it's a pleasure and honor to tell somebody my life, you know? 'Cause I am getting a little old—(Luevano laughs)—as you can tell. But I don't feel old. I can still do a couple of miles every day, you know. So. 00:11:02.595 --> 00:11:06.725 What was your first assignment after basic training? Where did you go after basic training? 00:11:06.725 --> 00:13:43.683 They sent me to Camp Pendleton in the 24 Area. And it's still there. I went and looked through the window one day. Everything's still the same. They put me to work there in the office. And I processed all the deceased that were the young men that were killed in the war. I did the letters to the parents, to the boyfriends, or whatever the letter needed to go. It was my responsibility along with two other Marines—(unintelligible) Marines—that we handle all that. And we would go in the warehouse and look at the personal effects of all these young men. We would go through them and make sure that everything was well. That the parent or the wife wasn't gonna receive something that was be embarrassing to the soldier. So we would—and make sure that their—the person of their wedding bands and their—whatever they had on them when they were killed—that it would be properly processed so that the parents would not have further grief because of something they received. Yeah. So it was us who were responsible for that. And I did that for the two years that I worked there. And that's—well my husband was coming back from Vietnam. He wasn't my husband then. He was nothing. He was just a young man that was coming to work in the warehouse. He had just come back from Vietnam, and that's where he was assigned. And I looked at him and I thought, what a handsome man. And there's a question in your questionnaire that says, "Did you make any lasting relationships out of your time in the service?" And he was lasting. We lasted 60 years together. He went on to stay in the Marine Corps. He was in for 16 years. So I felt like I was still part of that, because wherever he got orders—we got orders to go to Camp Lejeune—of course, I went with him. So his life—I lived my life through him, and he passed away last year. (Luevano's voice becomes shaky.) My best friend is the army of heaven now. (Luevano pauses and her eyes tear up.) 00:13:43.683 --> 00:13:58.000 Do you recall—like, backing up to your time in bootcamp—do you recall any of your instructors? Or, while you were at Camp Pendleton, do you recall any leaders who had a lasting impact on you? 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:48.565 I loved the instructor in bootcamp. His name is Sergeant Ortiz. Yeah. He had big front teeth. And, I loved marching. And even after we got out, my husband would line up my daughters—our three daughters—and we'd go marching (laughs). And that's stupid. But when you join the military, it's almost like it becomes a part of your life, you know? So Sergeant Ortiz was someone I never forgot. And then there was a sergeant—sergeant—he was a lieutenant—Lieutenant Bowling—at the 24 area. He was very fair, and he was easy and very nice to work with. Yeah, I never forgot his name. Lieutenant Bowling. 00:14:48.565 --> 00:14:54.250 What—so you said you reached the rank of corporal before you got out— 00:14:54.250 --> 00:14:55.000 —Yeah. 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:59.225 Was that a big milestone for you? 00:14:59.225 --> 00:15:14.115 For me it was because I knew I was gonna be getting out. And I felt like with each rank that I was proving to myself—yes, you are good at this. You know? 00:15:14.115 --> 00:15:26.424 What part of military life came naturally or felt easiest for you? 00:15:26.424 --> 00:16:14.784 (Luevano pauses for thought.) Taking orders, I guess, because my father was so totalitarian and strict in his mannerism. He never abused me or anything, he just was very cold and he was always trying to make a living so hard. He worked in—the shipyards is hard work. I understand now that he did love me, you know. But he was full of rules and regulations. Never any love, just rules and regulations. And I think it prepared me for the Marine Corps because when they gave me orders, I received them. I took 'em. I didn't see no reason why I shouldn't do that, you know. Because they know what's best. And so that would answer that, I think. (Luevano chuckles.) 00:16:14.784 --> 00:16:25.000 How did you interact with others while stationed stateside? Like either at Camp Pendleton or previous bootcamp. Like how were you—how was your interactions? What were they like? 00:16:25.000 --> 00:17:05.204 I loved it. I love to dance. My grandson yesterday—he was in the Navy—a traitor, he joined the Navy! But he sent me an oldie-but-goodie song on my phone yesterday. And he said, "This is for your birthday, grandma. Your birthday is coming up." And he said—he doesn't let me get depressed because he says, "The Marines don't get depressed." So, yeah—but what was the question? I forgot. 00:17:05.204 --> 00:17:11.164 It was asking how—what were your interactions like when you were at Camp Pendleton? 00:17:11.164 --> 00:18:57.144 Oh! I got along with everyone. I used to love (laughs)—I loved the male Marines, because they had cars and they would let me—and I was—I guess I was kind of cute when I was young (smiles), so a lot of them wanted to get married. One said, "I'll take you to New York. My parents live in New York, let's—" you know. And I said, "I don't wanna get married. I just wanna be where I'm at, you know." But in those days we were a little bit more strict with our morals. So it was always—it was for the—just being a way to laugh. And I would make friends with a cook at the mess hall. And we had a young Marine—a female marine—who discovered she had cancer. And she—they sent her home to die. And there was another—they used to call me "Boot." The women Marines would call me "Boot." And I loved the mess hall. I loved their food (laughs). So they would always ask me, "Bring me something, Boot." And after a while I got tired of doing that. But I made a lot of friends. I love people. And that's why I did very well in my professional career later on in life, because I sincerely love and care for people, you know? And so I never left with anybody being angry with me, or I just assumed you're a human being. You make mistakes like everybody else does, you know? 00:18:57.144 --> 00:19:04.000 So now we're getting on to wartime. I know you said you never deployed and you never went to Vietnam— 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:05.265 —No— 00:19:05.265 --> 00:19:33.404 —But you served in the Marine Corps while the conflict in Vietnam was happening. You said that your role in the Marine Corps was, as service members that had passed away from the war were coming back to California and like in caskets, your role was to make sure that they were received by their family members with nothing that would upset the family. Did that take a toll on you over the long run? 00:19:33.404 --> 00:20:48.904 I think it did, because their personal effects that came in the box represented who that individual was. And by the things that they own—and it also told me how old they were. They were just kids. Now when I look back, they were just 18-year-old boys—or 19, 20—and they were gone, you know? And so I would read their letters to their wives—which we were required to do that—to go through their stuff and make sure that the wife didn't get a letter from a girlfriend somewhere else. So we would read their letters and stuff. And so it is almost like I was reading the life of each individual soldier that came through that office. When I first got stationed there, at the 24 Area, we worked in a huge warehouse. And the warehouse was empty when I started. And by the time I left, within the two years, that warehouse was full to the top with boxes. 00:20:48.904 --> 00:20:50.000 Of deceased? 00:20:50.000 --> 00:21:06.983 (Luevano nods affirmatively.) Deceased. Mm-hmm. Yeah. They hadn't yet caught up to ship them to their parents—they were behind. And so the warehouse was packed with boxes. Yeah. 00:21:06.983 --> 00:21:19.664 So let's begin to talk about your transition out of service. Do you remember the day your service ended? And please describe what that was like. 00:21:19.664 --> 00:23:17.644 You know, I don't remember it at all because I was newly married. I was newly married and we had just found our first apartment in Fallbrook. And we found an apartment—a duplex, they were called then. And I moved in there. My husband and I got married in Las Vegas, and we moved to Fallbrook 'cause it was the cheapest place to live. And so I don't remember anything but the fact that I was starting another new life, you know? Which is being—living in an apartment. And then I found out I was pregnant. And I had my first child while we were living in Fallbrook. My daughters were all born—except for the last one—were born in Camp Pendleton at the hospital. My last one was born in San Francisco, 'cause my husband was in Vietnam again, and I was by myself. And so I—that was extremely hard for me. To be pregnant with two other children and my husband being gone. And he drove me to San Francisco at my father's house, and I stayed there and I cried and cried because it was too hard. I felt I couldn't raise my daughters by myself. He was gonna be gone 14 months, and didn't know if he would've come back, you know? So those were difficult years. That's why when people say to me, "Thank you for your service," I receive it because I felt I deserve that. (Luevano's voice gets shaky.) You know, so— 00:23:17.644 --> 00:23:31.000 It's interesting hearing your story as a corporal in the Marine Corps and then the wife's perspective after you got out while your husband was on his second deployment in Vietnam. 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:32.000 Yeah. 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.000 And you had three kids at that time, you said? 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:34.539 Yeah. 00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:37.775 And how long was he deployed for? 00:23:37.775 --> 00:23:39.733 14 months. 00:23:39.733 --> 00:23:42.934 And so you just stayed in San Francisco that whole time? 00:23:42.934 --> 00:23:49.644 The last one, yes, I stayed there. The other two, where was I? 00:23:49.644 --> 00:23:49.962 Camp Pendleton? 00:23:49.962 --> 00:24:25.825 Oh! I stayed with one of his best friends. His wife was also pregnant. And so, I stayed there until I had went into labor, you know? And then the other one—uh, Maria, where was she? Oh, she was born in the hospital in Camp Pendleton. I get my days a little bit mixed up with that, 'cause the three of them are a year apart. He would come home and get me pregnant and then he'd leave. But he told me he planned it that way. (Luevano chuckles.) 00:24:25.825 --> 00:24:35.545 How were you received by your family or your community after you got out? Like, was your dad there to receive you and celebrate with you after getting out? 00:24:35.545 --> 00:27:10.505 My dad regretted it, because he saw me do everything to be good as a Marine. And he was proud of me. He became proud of me. And one day I was—toward the end of my tour—I was at the barracks. And they told me I had a visitor, and it was my dad. And my dad brought me a gift. To this day, I can't figure out what made him do that. He brought me a sewing machine (laughs). And he said, "In case you have to sew your uniforms, I brought you a sewing machine." And he was proud of me that I was able to be a mom, a Marine, and also work—and eventually work and own a business, you know? The Lord—God has been very good to me. I have—at my age have accomplished a lot more than people realize. I've been everywhere. I've done quite a number of things. And I attribute that, first, to God for him being so faithful to me. And second, to the Marine Corps. I think they made me not be a quitter. Their training helped me a lot, you know? Even though Sergeant Ortiz might have thought he wasn't teaching me much by marching, I can still pivot (laughs). So he taught me a lot by the discipline. And when he would yell at me—and he would, 'cause they all—seemed like they all know how to yell and scream at my ear. "Did you hear what I said, Boot?" You know (Luevano chuckles). But they taught me a lot. Taught me things that I want my grandkids to do in their lives. To handle life that way as well. And they've pretty much done that. 'Cause my grandkids have done well, you know? All of them. They've done very well. You know, it takes discipline to do that. I said, "I never wanna see you—visit you in prison. I wanna go to your graduation." And they've done that. They've done— 00:27:10.505 --> 00:27:16.825 Was it—what was it like adjusting back to civilian life for you? Was it a hard transition? 00:27:16.825 --> 00:28:59.625 No, because then my husband was still in the military. He was still a Marine. So I'd never really made that transition. The transition that was hard is when he got out. Because he was a gunny (gunnery sergeant), and now he was—he got a job at General Dynamics sweeping the floors. And he kept his uniform in the closet in case he changed his mind and wanted to go back in. But he had to learn how to mop the floor as good as when he was a gunnery sergeant. He was a good marine. And but it was difficult. That transition, I think, was the hardest for the both of us, because he got out and by the time we reached California we only had $50 between us. And we went to live temporarily with his mom and dad while he figured out, "Where do I find a job?" 'Cause he joined when he was a kid too. He was 18 years old, I think, when he joined the Marine Corps. So he was just a young man. And now he was an older man and had family to support and no assistance from anyone. His parents were not very helpful. And it was hard. Even now, I didn't realize how hard that was, but it was extremely difficult for the two of us to adjust to. Because there was nobody there to cheer you on. Nobody there to help you, you know? And I'm sure they don't do that anymore. They have a lot more to offer the young Marines when they get out. 00:28:59.625 --> 00:29:08.234 Did you go receive a higher education after you got out? Or did you go straight into the workforce? Or did you—were you— 00:29:08.234 --> 00:32:36.744 When my husband—while still in the Marine Corps—he enrolled in a program that the Marine Corps allowed him to go to college, and they would pay for it. And as long as he kept a B average. So while he was there, I decided, well, if he's gonna go to college, I am too. So I got my GI Bill. He was still in the Marine Corps, but I was out so I used my GI Bill to go back, and I graduated from Cal State San Bernardino (California State University San Bernardino). Both of us graduated at the same time. And then he went back into the service because he was still in the service. He just didn't wear a uniform. But, we both got our degrees, and it really—the degree that I received—helped me a lot because it got me to the next step, which is to work. I got a degree in liberal arts and minor in psychology. And so I was able to work as a rehab counselor. And if I didn't have a degree, I wouldn't have gotten that job. Eventually I bought that company, and I changed it from Genesis to New Beginnings. In my office—I had three offices—in Palm Desert, Indio, and Palm Springs. And I loved it. My husband eventually, by that time we were out of the Marine Corps—out of any associations with them at all—just being civilians, you know. And then after that, I worked—sold real estate, and then finally I became a—my husband and I became missionaries, and we went to live in the Philippines. And we lived there for three years, but we had been visiting the Philippines for eight years before that. And we sold everything. And we sold our—we had horses. We had financially done well, But we laid it down because our commitment was to God first and then our own lives. And it was lovely. It was as hard as the Marine Corps. It was hard as bootcamp. And but my faith just said it. This is what I like to do. And my husband loved it. He absolutely—I guess he thought he was in Vietnam again, because Philippines is all jungle. And so I guess it was no difference between that and him being in Vietnam. And he loved it. You know, I have pictures of him going across a river. Just until eventually he got sick—he started getting, not feeling well. And eventually we came back to the States. And then I just saw his life slowly deteriorate. His health—it's been a good life. 00:32:36.744 --> 00:32:43.744 Did you maintain any of your friendships from the time you were in service after you got out of service? 00:32:43.744 --> 00:32:44.785 Did we, what? 00:32:44.785 --> 00:32:47.025 Did you maintain any of the friendships you made? 00:32:47.025 --> 00:34:18.355 We had one. His name was Lieutenant Daniel Boone. That was his real name. And my husband and him were high school buddies. And when Gus joined the Marine Corps, Danny joined the Marine Corps as well and became a lieutenant. Unfortunately, about four years ago, he committed suicide. He started having a lot of mental issues. He was in the Marine Corps in Vietnam as well. So he became depressed. And my husband—I was afraid that that idea that his best friend was now dead would give him ideas. But he said he was too chicken to take his life. So but we had another friend, Larry Talend, and he moved to Las Vegas in that area, and that's why we got married over there. And he was my husband's best man. And we kept those friendships. And Gus used to love—we went—some of them, he went to look 'em up and touch base with them once, but then people get busy with their lives. And I never did. I was too busy being all those other roles that I was playing. So no, that was about it. Yeah. 00:34:18.355 --> 00:34:25.684 Have you joined any veteran organizations or stayed involved in the veteran community? 00:34:25.684 --> 00:35:08.664 Only through church. On Veteran's Day or whatever, they make me stand up (laughs). And I never wanna stand up because I always—I'm embarrassed that I'm—that an old lady—that they would see me as a Marine. But inside I am. I think Marines are gutsy. I think that they're a different type of breed than your regular—no offense if you're in the Navy or Army or whatever—but Marine Corps's different. Yeah. 00:35:08.664 --> 00:35:17.664 So let's move on to reflections. How has your military service shaped who you are today? 00:35:17.664 --> 00:38:43.394 Oh, goodness. I could shout and yell at that question because absolutely! Next to my faith in God, the Marine Corps did what my dad was trying to instill in me without the anger, you know? It disciplined me. It—too many people quit when it gets tough. They either commit suicide or they take the easy way out. And I never did. And I know it was because the Marine Corps taught me that. When I said, "I'm not going AWOL. I'm going to make it through the ceremony." And when they sent me to Camp Lejeune for some further training, I went. And I finished—I was a good—I did what I was supposed to do. And so the Marine Corps shaped me that when I went to college and I was working as a waitress at the same time that I'm going to college to make extra money to raise my family. And I finished it. It taught me to start and finish. And I say that to my grandkids. He couldn't find—my grandson—he was unemployed for almost a year. And I said, "Jeremiah, don't you quit. We don't quit." And that, "You were in the Navy. That's your problem, but you need to finish what you start." And he did. He's in college, but he went back to school. (A dog is whimpering and can be heard in the background.) He got a job. He's computer literate. I mean—he's an awesome—Jeremiah's an awesome kid. But it's that principle. Too many young people, when the going gets tough, they want somebody to give them an A when they haven't earned an A, you know? And I'm not saying everyone's like that, but I believe that (Luevano looks down and speaks to her dog)—no Gunny. He was—don't start, don't throw it (Luevano laughs). Thank you. (Luevano looks back up. The dog stops whimpering.) He wants attention. So it's that—it's that thing. Even now I feel like quitting because now I'm alone and the love of my life is gone. I'll see him again. But sometimes I think, why don't I just go home? Why don't I just die? When I sit here by myself, instead of him being there saying, "Let's go for a drive, honey." You know what his concept of going for a drive was? Go to Camp Pendleton (laughs). He would drive to Camp Pendleton. We used to go to the Camp Pendleton at least once a week to go shopping. We just walk around and go to Starbucks there and have a cup of coffee. And he would park in the handicap section, and he would watch—One day he got mad 'cause the grounds by one of the office buildings was full of weeds. (Dog whimpering starts again, louder.) And he said, "I wish they would let me go in there and trim all those weeds. You know, it doesn't look good for the Marine Corps to have weeds like that." But it affected us. And I really believe that when I get to heaven, I'm gonna wear a uniform (laughs). And I wanna ride a horse (laughs). 00:38:43.394 --> 00:38:54.945 What message would you want to leave for future generations who may watch or hear this interview? 00:38:54.945 --> 00:41:36.594 (Dog barks.) Excuse me. Gunny! Here. (Luevano reaches down, takes a ball from the dog, and puts the ball on the table next to her.) No. Yesterday I had a young man that is getting ready to move out of this apartment. They're, I think, buying a home or they're moving out of the area. He's 12 years old. And I've made an impression on him in some way because he comes to visit. He's as big as you are. He's tall! Young boy. He's got the sweetest heart. And he was telling me he was moving and that he was sorry he wasn't gonna be able to come and see me as often. And I told him, it's perfectly okay. But that I gave him basically what I'm telling you right now, "You're gonna do well in life, son. You're gonna do well because you have such a kind heart." But he wants to lift weights 'cause he said, "I need to lose some weight." I said, "Just be disciplined. Just start something and finish it. You know?" And it's the same thing I told my grandkid. Just finish it. Start something and finish it unless you have something good to replace it with. So it—I think for the next generation, for the way that—I seem to attract them, I guess, 'cause I look like a sweet grandma or something (laughs). I like to—they are so sweet! And I love imparting something of what I know to them. There was a young girl that had run away from home. She was at church and she was thinking of joining the military. I said, "You do that, but you go in with the right motives. If you go into the service with the wrong motive as an escape hatch, it won't work 'cause Marine Corps will not be escape hatch for you in a good way. You can make it a good thing by having the right motives and the right frame of mind. And to be disciplined enough that when it's going gets tough, you get going and you finish it. You know?" And she decided to go back home and not join the military, which I was glad 'cause she wasn't military material. But she needed to go home and make things right with her parents. So I don't know if all that is what you want. 00:41:36.594 --> 00:41:43.105 What do you wish more people understood about veterans? 00:41:43.105 --> 00:43:15.704 You know, there was a—when I took my economics class in college, there's a thing—this is—there's no such thing as free lunch. And I think for a lot of them, they think it's free lunch. I have a very good friend. She's a professor and she teaches at Palomar College. And she was telling me that a lot of her students, when they don't work for it. And they demand an A, but yet they don't show up for class and they don't do their homework. And it scares me for the United States. I love this country. And, with that kinda attitude, I wouldn't want them in my foxhole because they don't wanna work. You know? And I'm not saying all of them, because that's all inclusive. It's not all like that. There's still a lot of people out there that, like you, are being successful in your life with your family, with the things that you volunteer for. You know? So I think that's—if I could impart that to them, finish your homework. You know, that old thing? (Luevano laughs.) "Mommy, I finish my homework." "Did you finish your homework?" "I don't think so." "Go back and finish your homework." 00:43:15.704 --> 00:43:23.554 If you were to reflect on the journey of your service, what themes or life lessons emerge? 00:43:23.554 --> 00:43:24.704 Tell me again. 00:43:24.704 --> 00:43:32.954 If you were to reflect on your journey and your time in the Marine Corps, what themes or life lessons emerge? 00:43:32.954 --> 00:43:33.875 What themes? 00:43:33.875 --> 00:43:50.000 Yeah. Or life lessons. 00:43:50.000 --> 00:47:04.385 You know, I love watching war movies. My husband and I loved when there's Veterans Day and they show around the clock war movies, and we would watch 'em all. And the thing that I liked the best is when they're marching—like the Band of Brothers movies. You know, the series of them? We watch those movies a number of times. And the one thing I saw in the Band of Brothers is that, as they're going through a particular area that's jungle or whatever, and they're on their way to a spot where they will see maybe the end of life or they're gonna see a war episode in their lives that is scary. They're running through the jungle. They're running—they're gonna go and die. And yet they're running to it. They, you know what I mean? They're running to it. They're not afraid of it. They know they have to. Maybe they're gonna give their lives in that destination where they're going, but they're doing it because there's a reason why they're doing it. And it's for our country. It's for the people. It's for what we will stand for. And a lot of young people don't know the—that's the question you asked. They don't know that freedom costs. They have no idea. They don't know what World War I, II is or Vietnam. And they don't even know where Vietnam is. And they don't know that we didn't acquire all of this. My husband used to call it "the Big PX." They don't know that all that we have, people lay their lives for it. You see them—they're without legs or they were—a bomb went off where they were at and they lost their limbs. And you just switch the channel. Like, and they did it for you and I, you know? And people lay their lives down for what they believe in in order to keep that to the next generation. And I wanna leave a legacy to my grandchildren. "My grandmother was a tough marine," they say. I wanna leave that for them because that's what life requires of us, is to put our boots on and run that trail. Or I saw a picture of Vice President Vance (JD Vance) marching with the Marines. I wanted to cut it out and put it in a frame, because he's running with all the Marines up this trail. And Camp Pendleton is known for those hills. And my husband used to say, "See those hills, honey? I ran those hills." Every time we go by there, he would tell me the same thing. I said, "Honey, how many times do you have to tell me you ran those hills." But that's what life is. Isn't it a race to finish? To finish well? Yeah. 00:47:04.385 --> 00:47:11.715 How did you become connected with the North San Diego County community, like here in Vista? 00:47:11.715 --> 00:47:51.295 Through a friend. You and I have a mutual friend that works at the college. And she invited me last year, and I literally lit up when I saw what it was. 'Cause she didn't—she didn't fully understand what it was that we were all all gonna be doing. And so when I went to the event last year, that's the first I ever heard of it, you know? And it thrilled my heart. It was like water to a dying flower, you know? So that's how I knew about it. Otherwise I wouldn't have known. 00:47:51.295 --> 00:47:56.885 Thank you again for sharing your story. It's an honor to help preserve it. 00:47:56.885 --> 00:47:59.000 It's an honor for me to share it. Yeah. 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:00.000 Thank you. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LuevanoDora_BeyerJason_2025-11-6.xml LuevanoDora_BeyerJason_2025-11-6.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Luevano, Dora. Interview November 6th, 2025 Description An account of the resource Dora Luevano served as a corporal in the U.S. Marine Corps. She was stationed at Camp Pendleton during the Vietnam War. Luevano worked in a warehouse and office, processing deceased servicemembers, collecting their personal effects, and writing letters to their family and loved ones. Luevano described her strict upbringing, immigration to the U.S. as a child from El Salvador, and decision to enlist in the Marine Corps. Luevano was forced out of military service for getting married and having a child, and she reflected on the harsh expectations and regulations that affected women in military service. She spoke about her 60-year marriage to her husband, whom she met in the Marine Corps, and their life together after military service. Luevano described how her civilian life was shaped by her upbringing, religion, military service, education, professional career, business ownership, and husband’s recent passing. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Marine Corps Pacific Bell Telephone Company Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Camp Lejeune (N.C.) California State University, San Bernardino Palomar College Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dora Luevano Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dora Luevano Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-102 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam San Salvador (El Salvador) El Salvador United States San Francisco (Calif.) South Carolina New York (United States) Fallbrook (Calif.) Las Vegas (Nev.) California Palm Desert (Calif.) Indio (Calif.) Palm Springs (Calif.) Philippines Vista (Calif.) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9f2c03d328b7a2764ecb18b7c98c5ba1.pdf 45257bd03df6b4dc94d0da8b823f204f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Luevano, Dora. Interview transcript, November 6, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dora Luevano served as a corporal in the U.S. Marine Corps. She was stationed at Camp Pendleton during the Vietnam War. Luevano worked in a warehouse and office, processing deceased servicemembers, collecting their personal effects, and writing letters to their family and loved ones. Luevano described her strict upbringing, immigration to the U.S. as a child from El Salvador, and decision to enlist in the Marine Corps. Luevano was forced out of military service for getting married and having a child, and she reflected on the harsh expectations and regulations that affected women in military service. She spoke about her 60-year marriage to her husband, whom she met in the Marine Corps, and their life together after military service. Luevano described how her civilian life was shaped by her upbringing, religion, military service, education, professional career, business ownership, and husband’s recent passing. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dora Luevano Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-06 Subject The topic of the resource United States. Marine Corps Pacific Bell Telephone Company Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Camp Lejeune (N.C.) California State University, San Bernardino Palomar College Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam San Salvador (El Salvador) El Salvador United States San Francisco (Calif.) South Carolina New York Fallbrook (Calif.) Las Vegas (Nev.) California Palm Desert (Calif.) Indio (Calif.) Palm Springs (Calif.) Philippines Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dora Luevano License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LuevanoDora_BeyerJason_2025-11-6_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Chamorro language;imperialism;language revitalization OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Lujan Bevacqua, Miget (Michael). Interview July 12, 2024. SC027-089 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Chamorro language ; Chamorro culture ; Chamorro history ; language revitalization ; Spanish colonization ; Japanese colonization ; United States/American colonization ; grandparents ; education Chamorro language ; imperialism ; language revitalization Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua Jennifer Ho Moving image LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f31815d4ea546e978b499adb5f085e06.mp4 Other video This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua, July 12th 2024, by Jennifer Ho, Communities and Cultures Archivist, university Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 148 Constantly Moving Miget discusses how his early childhood was filled with moving form place to place following his father's career for the US military and US State Department. Swaziland ; Guam ; United States ; Military ; Moving 0 530 Racism in Central California Miget talks about growing up in Atasacdero, CA and the racism that he encountered while going to highschool. Racism ; Chamorro ; white ; Latino ; Atascadero--Calif. 0 906 Moving to Guam Miget talks about how it was moving to Guam to be with his grandparents after highschool. Guam ; University of Guam ; College ; education 0 1332 Connecting with His Grandmother and Chamorro Culture Miget talks about how his attitude towards learning the Chamorro language changed when he took the time to sti down with his Grandmother and practice. Language revitalization ; Chamorro culture ; Imperialism ; US policy 0 1846 Connecting with His Grandfather Miget talks about how his Grandfather was always hesitant to speak Chamorro with him and would not teach Miget his blacksmithing. Miget's Grandfather's views began to shift as he saw how dedicated to the Chamorro language and culture Miget was becoming. Trauma ; Japanese occupation ; WWII ; US occupation ; Imperialism 0 2316 Chamorro Language Classes Miget discusses how he started teaching Chamorro Language lessons in smoothie shops and coffee shops. Language revitalization ; Chamorro language ; Chamorro culture 0 2739 Creating a Chamorro Immersion Program with June and Clarissa Miget talks about how some of his students, June Pangolin and Clarissa Mendiola, approached him with the idea of creating a Chamorro immersion program. Prugraman Sinipok ; Chamorro language ; Language revitalization ; Language immersion 0 3235 Escaping the States Miget talks about how he first moved to Guam to escape the racism and feelings of being lost or not fitting in in the United States. Racism ; Cultural identity ; Education ; California 0 3666 Cultural Influences Miget talks about how Johnny Sablan, a Chamorro musician and song writer, serves as an inspiration to him to continue his language revitalization journey. Johnny Sablan ; Chamorro music ; Chamorro culture 0 4001 What is Your Vision of the Future for Chamorro Language? Miget talks about his children and the hopes and dreams he has for Chamorro culture and language in the future. Children ; Cultural identity ; Chamorro culture ; Language revitaliztion 0 Oral history Michael Lujan Bevacqua is a Chamorro educator, language teacher, and activist. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Guam and in California, the pivotal relationship with his grandparents and his path toward embracing his heritage and community. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.155 --> 00:00:14.585 Okay, 00:00:14.585 --> 00:00:19.195 I'm, a little bit under the weather, but, feeling very good otherwise. 00:00:19.195 --> 00:00:30.585 Okay, good. Thanks for being here with me. I appreciate it. Okay, so I would like to start with your childhood. Tell me when and where you were born, and I'd love to hear about the people who raised you. 00:00:30.585 --> 00:02:28.425 Oh, yes. So I was born in the year 1980 on the island of Guam. My dad, his name's Robert Bevacqua. He, has his roots in New York, Italian American, with some German ancestry, the Bevacqua family. His father, participated in the liberation of Europe in World War II and was a career US, Air Force officer, and then retired to Hawaii after, the war. And then, so my dad spent his formative years growing up in Hawaii. My mother, was the daughter of, Joaquin Flores. My mother, Rita Luhan--Flores Luhan was the daughter of Joaquin Flores Luhan and Elizabeth de León Flores Luhan. And my great--my grandfather on my mother's side was a master blacksmith. He was a cultural, master in Guam, the last traditional, cultural, master of that type, meaning that, there used to be many blacksmiths on Guam, especially during the Spanish period in which most people survived, by living off the land, farming and so on. But after World War II and dramatic changes to life, nearly all of them did not pass on the knowledge to their children, their grandchildren, or take any apprentices. And so my grandfather was basically the youngest blacksmith before the war. He--when the Japanese invaded Guam in 1941, he was 21 years old, and he had learned blacksmithing from the age of nine from his father. And then he also learned how to weld, as a machinist from the US Navy. And so, so my mother, you know, so my, my mother's family had roots in Guam. My mother and father met in Hawaii, and, they stayed together for a number of years. They had, three children together, and then they got divorced. 00:02:28.425 --> 00:05:20.206 And so my upbringing was a lot of moving back and forth between California and Guam, sort of moving back and forth between families. And then the most fascinating phase of it was a year and a half, a two year stint, in which my dad worked for the US State Department in a US farming aid program in the 1980s. And so we did live, for less than two years, in the country of, in the southern African country of Swaziland. So I was just like five years old at that time, or a little--five or six years old. And so growing up, I don't feel like I had a particularly strong sense of my identity as a person from Guam, as a Chamorro person. Part of it was just moving around from different places. And then also part of it too was that my mother's generation and then my generation, we represented in many ways, sort of the impacts of Americanization policies, kind of put out there by the US Navy, which had taken Guam in 1898 via the Spanish American War. And so Chamorro's after World War II had kind of put into hyperdrive this push to Americanize themselves. To stop speaking their language, to sell their land, to jump into sort of the wage economy, to leave the island behind and move to the states where they could, you know, finally, touch what they could only see in JC Penny catalogs that came to the island. When I was growing up on Guam it was fascinating because the television--the ads and the shows that were shown on television were recorded on cassette tapes on the west Coast of the United States, and then they were mailed every single day to Guam. So you watched shows like Dallas or LA Law two weeks after they initially premiered in California and in the United States. And so--and then eventually this was kind of brought down to just one week, and then now you can kind of watch them because of, you know, satellite technology. You can watch them the day of and so on. But that feeling of growing up and like constantly being fed these ideas of the United States, like, especially through media, but then kind of always never being able to realize it or find it on the island. It definitely did--It definitely did a number on me, and I think a lot of others in my generation where there was this feeling like, you need to leave the island. You need to kind of forget being a Chamorro, forget Guam, you know, head out to the States. 00:05:20.206 --> 00:08:40.024 Like a case in point for that is growing up, there was always ads for a place called Raging Waters (water park in LA). And kids, my generation, like desperately wanted to go to Raging Waters. And it was ridiculous because Guam has amazing beaches and it has waterparks and water slides already. Why would there be this cachet about Raging Waters? But it is sort of this, this kind of, this lure of--this colonial lure. The United States kind of is up here, and then we're constantly striving to kind of reach it. And in--and what happens as a result is that we kind of devalue, we set aside, we throw away the things that we, the things that we have. And so when I was growing up, I didn't care much about being Chamorro. In fact, I was growing up in the 1980s at a time where what we refer to today as the Chamorro renaissance, which is kind of like the cultural awakening. The Chamorro empowerment movement, which, which, in the seventies was initially called like the Brown Power Movement after sort of similar movements in the United States. It was starting to take root, but it hadn't really reached the wider population. And so even, the word that we used to refer to ourselves was in flux. So the word that we had used, that we used for ourselves for hundreds of years, perhaps thousands of years, of course, Chamorro. But after the United States had defeated the Japanese and returned, there was this feeling that we needed to show loyalty to the United States, that a new era had begun. And so part of this came then that the leaders of the Chamorro people actually proposed renaming themselves. And so instead of Chamorro, which was difficult for Americans to comprehend, difficult for them to pronounce, which could confuse them, instead what they did is they actually had a poll--polls in the late 1940s in which they put it to villages to ask them, which of these options do you approve? And there was options like Guamerican Guamanian, Guamian, Guamese. And so one of the highest vote getters was Guamerican. But the US Navy at that time informed Chamorro leaders that you are not to call yourselves Guamericans, 'cause you're not Americans. And so the one of the--the next highest--then because of sort of the war and sort of ill feelings towards the Japanese, which had occupied the island brutally for 32 months, Guamese was absolutely out. So Guamanian is what stuck. And so for two generations, Chamorros referred to themselves in this era of Americanization, this blitz of Americanization. They referred to themselves as Guamanians. So when I was growing up, there was--the conversation was starting about whether we should keep calling ourselves Guamanians or whether we should go back to calling ourselves Chamorro. And so it was a very confusing time. 00:08:40.024 --> 00:12:20.625 But I wasn't as a young person, and even into my teens, I wasn't somebody who cared a lot about these issues because, I didn't have a strong sense of my own identity. My grandfather, I mentioned, had been a cultural master. He had trained a number of apprentices. But the fact that his grandchildren couldn't speak Chamorro or the fact that he saw us as being too Americanized and too Westernized meant that he wouldn't teach us. My grandmother always teased him saying well, (speaking in Chamorro) who raised them? We raised them. We raised them because we wanted Americans. And now we can't be angry at them. We wanted Americans, we got Americans. And now you complain when they don't--when they only wanna look out for themselves. So my grandparents were always a balance on each other. My grandfather sort of--but eventually I did develop sort of a strong connection to my cultural identity. But it happened in a number of sort of convoluted ways. And a lot of it actually happened out here in San-- not in San Diego, but here in California when I was away from the islands that, my mother, had married our dad and then divorced. She had moved us back to Guam to live with her parents. We were there for a few years. And then she had met somebody else when we were visiting her sister in California, in the Central Coast near Pismo Beach, Arroyo Grande. And so she just on a whim, because she had fallen in love, decided to move us all out there. Which was very jarring and shocking because for me, I wasn't, I didn't like love Guam. I wasn't gonna like die for Guam. But I also--California was not my home. And so when we came out to California, I liked it in some ways. I didn't like it in other ways. And this especially became, so as I moved into high school years, and I ended up in a school in a city, it's called Atascadero, which has a, like a mental, State hospital, and then it has an In-N-Out burger. And so it's--it was a very weird place for me because my mother had married a man who I had issues with at that time because they loved each other, but they also basically reinvented the Brady Bunch with us. My mom had three kids. Charles, my new stepdad had three kids, and we all lived in a three bedroom house. And then they had one more kid together. And so it was tough because, you know, for me, you know, the more that I was out in the States and as I was getting older, like I felt like I didn't belong in the States. And a lot of this I didn't share with my family because I didn't know who to talk to about this sort of thing. There was no other people from Guam in the area, just my mom, my siblings, and then my aunt who lived 40 miles south. But I would go to my--I would go to school, like the high school there, and I would get like hazed and harassed by like the white kids with the giant belt buckles and the big cowboy hats, because they saw me as being some sort of like weird Latino kid. But then I would also get harassed by Latino kids, 'cause they saw me as being like a fake Hispanic kid who wasn't like cholo enough, who wasn't--who was like fronting that I was white or--and so I was like-- it was--I was getting harassed and I was getting into fights, like on both sides. And it like really frustrated and angered me. 00:12:20.625 --> 00:15:16.945 And it eventually--like left where I like ran away from home. For a while and went to go stay with friends. And my mom, who, you know, who at that time I was very, I was not a good son. I was a very unpleasant sort of like 16-year-old to her. She was very patient. She was very loving. I don't think that she could really understand what I was feeling 'cause I think, you know, for her it's just, she's okay being out here in California. And I didn't nearly know how to talk about what I was feeling. I had no idea. But if something happened in my life though, that changed everything, was that once I-I decided to finish high school early. So I tested out of high school and then, because I hated going to high school. I went to like five different high schools in like a semester because I had trouble acclimating. I even went to like a, (coughs) excuse me--like a high school for juvenile delinquents because of my behavioral problems at that time. And so I decided to take the test in which you can just do your high school proficiency. So then I could just start going to college and then figure out what I wanted to do. And at that time, I was kinda lost. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but my, my grandparents who were in Guam, my mom's parents, you know, they were hearing about all the stuff I was going through. They had come out at one point because my grandfather had heart surgery at Stanford. And so they, they basically--my grandmother told me, just come stay with us. Just come home and stay with us. You can stay here. We have a car you can use. Just come home and stay with us. And so I just decided to. And it was--it took a few years, but eventually this is--this was a choice that completely changed my life because I wasn't --it--the homecoming wasn't like that I suddenly like got on my knees and I said, I am a Chamorro. I love my culture, I love my identity, I'm proud. But I came home and I found that I liked, even though I was, you know, I'm half Chamorro and I, you know, I'm a little bit lighter skinned than a lot of Chamorros and I can't speak Chamorro. I found that I was more comfortable and Guam than being out here. I found I liked that my family was out there, so I had roots. So if I felt like I didn't have a place to go, I still had a family. If I didn't know where I belonged, I had my grandparents and I could always kind of turn to them as like a, so even if I felt lost, I could just go hang out and, you know, just take my grandparents for a drive and take them to a funeral and then go eat lunch, you know, at a restaurant with them and just hang out with them. And then I felt like, like home. 00:15:16.945 --> 00:18:32.765 And so all of these experiences though, connecting with my grandparents really like, changed my perspective. Where I started to get more interested first in kind of the history of our people a little bit in the culture. I started to, at first when I started going to the University of Guam, I just wanted to like, take class in like English literature, I wanted to go into an MFA program for art. But towards the end of my undergrad, I started to take classes in like Guam history and Micronesian history, Pacific Island history. 'cause I realized like I wanna know more about this place that we come from. And so, like, my whole life changed when, in my last year at the University of Guam, I had to pick my foreign language requirement. And I had already taken one semester of Spanish at a community college here in California. And so I was trying to decide should I take another language or should I just take Spanish? And I was gonna take Spanish. I signed up for Spanish. And then when I got in there, it was so hard, like I realized that it had been like three years since I had taken Spanish and I had forgotten all the Spanish because the teacher just put on a telenovela and I had no idea what anybody was saying. And so I was at the breakfast table with my grandparents and my mom's oldest sister, my Auntie Eleanor. And then I was asking them, I was like, man, what language should I take? There's always this pressure to take Japanese 'cause that's for the longest time, that's the biggest bulk of the tourists to Guam, Japanese. There's all these language classes there. And so I was trying to figure out--and then my Auntie Eleanor, who was always very blunt, she said, that's a stupid question, Miget. Aren't you Chamorro? You should take Chamorro if you're Chamorro, you're not Spanish. You should take Chamorro. Aren't you a real Chamorro? And at that time, I did not feel like I was a real Chamorro at all, but I felt challenged. And so I said, okay, I'm gonna take Chamorro. And so I decided to, and I thought in my-- in sort of the smaller sort of more fragile parts of my brain, I thought I took Spanish. Chamorro was just like Spanish. We were colonized for a few hundred years. This should be easy, right? I was like the worst student in the class. I was so bad 'cause I had--a lot of the students in the class had grown up in Guam. So a lot of things they were already familiar with because in Guam, if you go to the public school, you take several years of Chamorro language. So things are very familiar. You may not be fluent, but you at least are familiar with certain songs, with certain, like pledges, certain words, vocabulary. I didn't know any of it. And so my professor, who is now a master storyteller in our culture, he teased me 'cause he knew my grandfather. And he's like, Miget, your grandfather is so very Chamorro and you are so very not Chamorro. You are a shame for your family. You bring shame to your family because I was so bad. And everyone was--and the thing is, like, I was--everyone knew me as being smart. 00:18:32.765 --> 00:19:40.635 I was always good in my classes. I was like the kid from California, like the Chamhaole Chamorro haole, the Chamorro white kid from California who talks a lot in the classes and does well, we can ask him for help with your homework. But in this class, I was so bad. And it was a very humbling experience. Some of the students who sat behind me who were pretty good in Chamorro, they would tease me. They would feed me answers and embarrass me. So there was a--there was a girl who I kind of had a crush on who sat on the other side of the class. And I would look at her sometimes and I would be like, man, Maria's so good at Chamorro and, but I'm so bad at Chamorro. I should get better at Chamorro than maybe Maria will like hang out with me or something like that. Because, you know, Maria, like, you know, she's learning to say the pray the Catholic prayers in Chamorro from her family, she's super Chamorro compared to me. And so the guys that sit behind me, they like whispered some stuff to me, and they told me to say this. And so after class, when I said it to her, it was very offensive. It's one of the most offensive things you can say in the Chamorro language, 00:19:40.635 --> 00:19:46.134 Oh no! 00:19:46.134 --> 00:19:48.868 that I said to her. And so she hasn't spoken to me since, but, 00:19:48.868 --> 00:19:49.000 You can't tell us what it is? 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:55.000 Oh, so the word is, Chada Nana-mu, so it means it's--you're your mother's eggs, as in you're your mother's vagina. 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:56.000 Oh dear... 00:19:56.000 --> 00:22:12.585 So it's like a, it's the equivalent of like Chamorro for 'motherfucker'. And so I didn't--I had no idea 'cause my grandparents spoke Chamorro to each other, but my grandmother was very religious and she did not allow any cursing in Chamorro in the house. So I didn't even know curse words in Chamorro. Everyone else knew at least the curse words. I didn't know that. And that was super embarrassing. But all of these experiences were important because then what I had to do is that I had to go and I had to ask my grandparents for help with my homework. And my grandfather said, no. You know, and my grandmother said, absolutely. My grandmother was very excited to help me. And so she would sit with me and sometimes she would walk me through the homework and sometimes she would just do my homework for me. And so after a few weeks, my professor would be like, Miget, why is it that your written Chamorro is so good, but your spoken Chamorro is still so bad? And I'd be like, oh, I'm just, I need time to prepare professor. I just need time to prepare and then I got it. And so my grandmother was like, she was loving it. And the more that I went through this, the more I realized that like, my grandparents spoke more to each other, but they did not speak it to their children. So part of the legacy of the 20th century when the United States came into Guam is that one of the earliest things that they proposed is that the Chamorro language be banned in public spaces. So it was banned for the most part in schools. Children were punished. You might have to drink castor oil If you drink--if you speak Chamorro. You might get slapped on the fingers with a ruler. You might have to wear a dunce cap. There was like jars akin to swear jars where you have to pay a fine if you're caught speaking Chamorro. And children were encouraged to report on each other too. So eventually some teachers, some principals, created English clubs in which Chamorro children wore badges that said, "Speak English", "English only." And then they went around finding children speaking Chamorro and then they turned them in to get them in trouble. 00:22:12.585 --> 00:24:30.825 And so this created like an atmosphere in which--my-- for people in my grandparents' generation, they could all speak Chamorro, but the idea of passing the language on to the next generation was fraught with, it was fraught with peril because the school system, the United States, all of these things, all these pressures had basically convinced you that while the language is good for you to speak to your parents, good to speak to your peers, you shouldn't be using it with your children. The language shouldn't go on. And so what we've seen since then is ever since World War II, the language just completely declines to the point now where 80% of the Chamorro people in the world cannot speak their language. Including in the Mariana's Islands and then out here. And so my--so I didn't know much of this, but, when I came to my grandmother, though, she was so eager to help me and what was beautiful about it is that I was your typical sort of 19 and 20-year-old. And I'm very upfront about it 'cause I think sometimes people can be very--sometimes people can be very idealized. I was very upfront--I'll be very upfront, like I was a 19 and 20-year-old who did not want to hang out with my grandparents all the time. I had a car, I had friends, I had other things I wanted to do. So sometimes if my grandmother said, Mike, can you take me to the store? I might make something up. So I didn't have to. Or if she said, can you take me to a funeral? I would say, oh, I have homework. And so I don't--you know, I am very real about that because I loved my grandmother, but I didn't have this strong connection to her yet. But learning Chamorro from her gave me like a very strong connection. Because the more I sat with her at the breakfast table and the dinner table, and the more that we talked and the more that she shared, the more I realized that actually I would much rather be sitting at that table with her than going to any club or any bar going and hanging out with friends. 00:24:30.825 --> 00:28:41.865 And so I decided after taking the first level of Chamorro, I took the second level of beginning Chamorro. And like the second class I was having fun. Like, I went above and beyond, you know, like we had an assignment where you had to like translate an English song in Chamorro. I worked with my grandma to translate a bunch of songs into Chamorro. So I was like, grandma, can you help me translate? "Hey Jude" (Hey Jude by The Beatles) my grandma's like, hafa enao "Hey Jude", what's, "Hey Jude", what's that? And I'm like, here, ni ta ekungok, let's listen to it. And then she listened to it and then we sat there for a while translating, "Hey Jude". And then eventually after we had the lyrics, you know, we sat there just singing it in Chamorro together. And it was so much fun. We translated "Ain't No Sunshine When She's Gone" (Ain't No Sunshine by Bill Withers) into Chamorro. And it was like glorious because I realized that my--like I had lived with my grandparents a lot. I had sat in the cars with them. I had sat next to them in churches I had sat with next to them at parties. This didn't mean I talked to them a lot. This didn't mean I knew a lot about them. But once I came to my grandmother and my grandfather and I started to ask them for help in Chamorro, suddenly my grandmother was telling me things and talking to me. And I loved it. I loved it so much. And so after I finished my two Chamorro classes, I asked my grandmother in my very broken Chamorro I said, (speaking Chamorro), can you talk to me (in) Chamorro? And my grandmother was so happy. And my grandmother then shared that when she had been a teacher before World War II in the 1930s, 1940s, she had had to punish Chamorro children for speaking the language. And she hated it. She thought it was wrong. She did not like it. But those were the rules. And the Americans created the rule and then Chamorro principles and other Chamorro teachers enforced those rules. And so she couldn't challenge it, but she was so happy. My grandmother was a quiet woman that never like very rarely ever protested or spoke out directly, but she always whispered that more people need to stand up for the Chamorro people. And so when I told her I wanted to--when I wanted to learn Chamorro, she said, more people need to learn Chamorro, this is good. My grandfather resisted at first, he did not want to speak to me in Chamorro. He would tease me. And my grandfather and me always had a tough relationship in which he was always about teasing. But this is a normal thing. People experienced different types of trauma and people have different ways of dealing with that trauma. My grandfather had been, beaten by the Japanese during World War II. He had almost been executed along with his father and siblings by the Japanese during World War II. After the war, he had become the first Chamorro US immigration Officer. And his experience, there was something that I did not fully appreciate, until years after years when he would talk more openly and grandma would talk about it. But he was constantly made to feel like he was less than because he didn't speak good English. And so he--his resistance to sort of me speaking Chamorro. So for example, my grandfather, when I would ask him to help me with my Chamorro for the first few years, he would resist it just out of sort of insecurity. Like, I can't help you. Like why you wanna learn this language, this language stupid. It's useless. You should learn a language that people want to speak. All sorts of stuff like that. And so--but I persisted and eventually it changed my grandfather too. And so, you know, one of the things that me learning Chamorro did is that, you know, getting connected to my grandparents is that then I started enjoying spending time with them. 00:28:41.865 --> 00:32:56.464 So my grandfather had a shop in which he displayed his tools and sold his blacksmithing tools at one of the night market Chamorro village areas. And, I had to go with him every Wednesday night to help sell him. I used to hate it now, I liked it. I got to help grandpa, I got to talk to people, and I got to practice my Chamorro. And then I showed more interest now in grandpa as a blacksmith too. I wanted to know about this part of our culture. And so I left, you know, when I, left in, 2004 to start my PhD out here in California, I was learning Chamorro. And I was very sad because I thought like I was gonna lose my Chamorro ability 'cause I was gonna be away from my grandparents. Because I had gotten into this flow of--with my grandparents, where like I would before if my grandma said, can you take me to a funeral this week? I would be like, oh, grandma,I have a paper. Do I can't? But now I would wake up and I'd be like, Hey grandma, is there a funeral this week that I can take you to? 'cause I was excited to go and hold her hand and meet her friends and get to practice our language and then just hear their stories and then write them down. And then, this is when I started to do like my own oral history research--is that my grandmother would go with me and then we would sit with people, and like spend the afternoon taking down their stories. And it was so much fun. And so when I went out to the States for my PhD, I thought that this was gonna kind of like ruin my Chamorro, but it actually made my-- it made me miss my grandparents a lot. I called them just about every day to keep practicing. And then within a few years I came back and my grandfather had completely changed his kind of attitude to the end of his life, my grandfather said that my Chamorro is not the same as his Chamorro. And he would--he could sometimes be very mean about that. But when I came back in 20--2008 and I was starting to work on my dissertation, like something had shifted in him because by that time that I was, you know, I was getting a name for myself as somebody who cared about culture and language and I was maybe gonna be like a professor or something. And he--and people were telling my grandfather, you should be proud Mr. Lujan of your grandson. He can speak Chamorro. And so he was starting to shift. And so in 2008, my youngest--my younger brother and me both came back to Guam. And I asked my grandfather, you know--to if he wanted our help in his blacksmith shop. And for the first time he said yes. And that was, that was very life changing because he had always said no before. And he had always done it in a way that is very reminiscent of sort of like cultural artisans in which they basically say, yes, I will teach you, but you have to show enough initiative. So like--so if you don't show that you care enough, then they're not really gonna teach you. They're gonna say they're willing to teach you. But if it's clear that you don't care enough. So like for example, if you--so some people that would ask my grandfather to teach them, he would say, come to my house at like 10 o'clock on a Sunday. And then if they showed up at 10 o'clock and they didn't bring any food with them, then he would say, nevermind, you know, if you're serious, you should come earlier. You should bring something to eat. 'cause we got to eat. And so you gotta show that you care and you have to show that you respect the person you're learning from. And so learning from my grandfather, that was very life changing. And it was frustrating at times. But part of it was that my grandfather's--sort of his insecurity, his trauma around English, his trauma dealing with racism, like, I don't know if he ever kind of dealt with it in any full way, but at least me speaking Chamorro gave him some comfort when we were in the shop. He could speak English if he wanted to, but he could also speak Chamorro. 00:32:56.464 --> 00:35:55.385 And sometimes he might tease my Chamorro, your Chamorro is not my Chamorro (speaking Chamorro). But we kept learning, making tools and it was, it was fun and it was cool. And all of this just solidified me as somebody who like cares about language, culture, history, people in like a very deep way. And so it-- and it's all because my grandparents, and it's all because of my connection to them. And it's all because I humbled myself to take the language from them, even if it may have taken a little while for my grandfather. And so I, I hold onto, (responding off camera) oh is it okay, okay. I hold onto to certain memories. 'cause now them, both of them have passed away. My grandmother passed away in 2013 and my grandfather passed away in 2015. And so I was so glad that my grandmother got to hear, one of her great-grandchildren speak Chamorro before she passed. And it was a very touching moment where we went over to visit and my oldest child who's now 17, you know, went to go, while I sat at the table with my grandfather and was talking, my oldest child who was just a young baby at that time, went over to go and sit with my grandmother in the living room. And you know, my grandmother came over after a few minutes and she put her hand on my shoulder and you know, she said to me, (speaking Chamorro) your daughter is speaking Chamorro. And I was like, yeah, (responding in Chamorro) because for me, every one of my children, from the moment they're born, I promised them (speaking Chamorro), I tell them, I will protect you with all of my life and then I will speak to you only in this language. And so my grandmother was like tearing and up and crying and she was rubbing my shoulder and I was like, (speaking Chamorro) grandma she's speaking Chamorro. And my grandmother was like, (responding in Chamorro) It's like a miracle, because after a while there's still thousands of Chamorro speakers, but they're all older. There's very few young Chamorro speakers. It's very rare to hear a baby speaking Chamorro or a child speaking Chamorro. And so I'm so glad that I got to have that moment with my grandmother to give her that moment and for me to have that moment. And even for my grandfather who towards the end of his life, he would not let go of blacksmithing even when he could no longer stand on his own. We would have to wheel him down into the shop and he was in a walker and we would've to hold him up so that he could work. 00:35:55.385 --> 00:39:31.835 And even when his eyesight started to go, he was still better at shaping blades and sharpening blades than I was. But towards the--in like the last few months of his life, he told me, you know, (speaking Chamorro) our Chamorro's not the same, but I'm happy that you're speaking Chamorro. And I think that was the best I was ever gonna get from Grandpa in terms of acknowledgement. But all of this though, basically made it so that what was something that was not important to me at all, the Chamorro language, has become something that is like supremely important to me--wanting to share.--having like that experience when I was trying to learn Chamorro in Guam in the early two thousands and having that experience of working with my grandmother and then trying to find elders to help me practice, but then realizing that fewer and fewer people can speak the language. So when I was like 21 years old, I would map out my day to always try to find the Chamorro speakers. When I go to a grocery store, who is the cashier that can speak Chamorro. And I go to them. You know, if I go to like a clinic, which is the nurse that can speak Chamorro, and then I'll try to talk to that person. And then--but realizing that for a lot of people, if they wanna learn Chamorro, it's gonna be really difficult just because they may encounter somebody--like they're--they may not have somebody who's as generous as like my grandmother. 'cause my grandmother was like the kindest soul ever. When I would like create atrocious Chamorro sentences, my grandmother would say, I wouldn't say it like that. Why don't you try saying it like this? My grandfather would just be like, it's wrong lachi' it's wrong. That's--or he would tease me, what's that? Tagalog? Is that Tagalog? He would just tease me. And most Chamorros, because of their own kind of insecurities around the language, especially being punished for speaking Chamorro, like they'll just tease. 'cause they don't want to deal with like the trauma involved. So what I did is, even though I got a degree in Ethnic Studies, which was not about language revitalization, I just decided to make language revitalization a big part of my life. I decided to make sure that my kids can speak Chamorro, but I also decided that I would help the community. And so for the past 15 years I've had free language classes in the community. At first they started off in a smoothie shop and then they started--and then they went to coffee shops. And sometimes like two people, three people would be there. I would put up a flyer or later put up just a note on Facebook saying, free Chamorro lessons, just come down. If somebody buys me a drink, I'll teach you Chamorro. And sometimes there'd be a few people, sometimes there'd be 20 people and it would ebb and flow. But for me it was just important because there's classes that you can take on Guam, you can sign up for a class in the University, but there needs to be more spaces than that. And so for me it was just like, come to a coffee shop and I'll give you--I'll just give you some lessons in Chamorro. 'cause some people don't have the money or don't have the time to go and sign up for like a full on class. 00:39:31.835 --> 00:42:00.853 And so I kept these language classes going on Guam for a very long time. And it was pretty interesting because over the years, so many people kind of filtered through them. People who were like poli-- eventual politicians, activists, radical scholars. People would come on island and just like hang out at them just to kind of see what is this language class here? And the classes would be all types because they would be basically based on like whatever people were feeling. So sometimes it would be handouts with like a formal lesson. And then sometimes if people had a little bit more fluency, we would just play games in Chamorro. So like we would play Clue in Chamorro or we would play Scrabble in Chamorro. And then, we even played Dungeons and Dragons in Chamorro. And so sometimes we would just listen to music and then translate songs. And so it would just change depending on whoever came and whoever was coming. And so it was a very--it was a wonderful organic community space for language learning. And then the pandemic happened. And at that point I had maybe like 20 or 30 people who are coming every Friday, excuse me, every Saturday to the classes. And I just put it out to them in our WhatsApp chats like, well, I don't know when this is over the pandemic. Do you just want to meet on Zoom? And everyone said yes. And I said, well, are you okay if I also just like invite people online? I'll just put it out online too and say free Chamorro classes people can sign up and, and come, and when I say sign up, you just need to get the Zoom link and then you can just join. There's no formal sign up, there's no fees. You just have to come and then hang out. And I wasn't prepared for how like successful it was. In the first year, in 2020, we broke my Zoom 'cause there was a limit that I didn't know about where you could only have a hundred people. So then I had to like upgrade my Zoom for more people. And so that was--and then at the high point, like in August of 2020, over the course of three hours, because I would offer three levels, beginner, beginner, two, and then intermediate. There was 300 people in the class. 00:42:00.853 --> 00:42:00.864 Wow. 00:42:00.864 --> 00:45:39.264 And I'm always careful because people come to the class at different stages and for different reasons. So some people come are very serious learners. They want to study. They're going to come up with a plan for learning. Other people just feel the word in Chamorro is mahalang, meaning lonely, isolated, homesick. They just don't have any Chamorros around them. Maybe they're the only Chamorro in their corner of Wyoming or Vermont and maybe they've left the islands or maybe they are somebody where their family migrated to the United States in the fifties or sixties and then erased what it means to be Chamorro. Not just the language, but then even just-- 'cause I've encountered so many students where they wouldn't even use the word Chamorro at all because of pressures to assimilate or perhaps feelings of racism that were internalized. And so students come into the classes and they just are so excited to be in a space where like, I'm a Chamorro, I don't know what it means. Is it okay to be here? And I'm like, yeah, this is a space for everybody. Like you don't have to be the smartest Chamorro. You don't have to be the best Chamorro just--and you don't even have to be Chamorro. 'cause a bunch of people have Chamorro wives or husbands or partners or they have a-- like even in the program that we have now, four of the people in our immersion program here are not Chamorro. And so from this program, it's like, it's grown huge. And when I say people join because they have different needs and they're at different points, it's so true. Some people will turn on their cameras and they will take copious notes. Other people, you know, will basically be driving, you know, driving in their car, who knows where, other people will be cooking with their family, other people--one of my favorites is when one of the students had her camera off, but sometimes when she turned it on, it was clear that she was a nurse in a hospital. So her camera accidentally went on and like, she was in the hospital in the class. And like there was like a someone they were working on. And I was just like, Hey, it's okay. Go take care of that person and then you can come back. We understand, we appreciate your love of our language and culture, but don't worry it'll be here go, go help that person. But so that's-- for me, that's-- yeah, for me, as somebody who learned the language as a second language, it's key, right? Because, languages, you know, it's key to have a variety of spaces to meet a variety of needs. Sometimes people assume that you need one space or like one proposal, and that's simply not the case. Certain types of learners can use certain types of programs of learning, but heritage learners are so different. Heritage learners of languages even--are so dramatically different because even the excitement that somebody feels in learning the language can block them in learning the language. Because what they feel like, I should, I should be able to say this. I'm Chamorro. Doesn't my DNA give me an advantage? Your DNA doesn't really give you an advantage. Like there's ways that you--there's ways that your sort of, your spiritual connection, your cultural connection, it can help you. But it's not like downloading an app. 00:45:39.264 --> 00:50:13.034 And so from,--so June (June Pangelinan), and most people that are in the immersion program that we're having here at San Marcos, they were my Zoom language students. So June Pangelinan started--and Clarissa Mendiola, they started in, 2020. And then June actually came to Guam the following year. And she met with me. 'cause I work at the, as the curator at the Guam Museum. And she met with me when I was giving a number of my language students who had come on island at the same time. She met with me after I gave them a tour of the museum. And she asked me, she said, you know, coming to Guam and then like, finding that like my family, even those who speak Chamorro won't speak Chamorro to me. And I know it's hard for people to understand because there's, there's thousands, there's still tens of thousands of Chamorro speakers. But you also have to remember that they're not there to serve you and the language. So you have to create a relationship with them. And sometimes students have trouble with that 'cause they feel like, my grandma speaks Chamorro, she should just speak to me in Chamorro. Your grandma has a lot of--there's a lot of issues involved. Like, you need to, you know, you need to make your grandma feel loved and trusted and cared for. Like your grandma probably, she may have been a survivor of World War II in Guam, the Japanese occupation, she was probably punished for speaking Chamorro. So when you say, hey, just speak to me in Chamorro, you're like bumping up against a lot of things and you can help her get past those things, but your desire for her to teach you is not enough. She's got a lot of blocks and you can help her get through those. But part of it is decentering the self, not learning through the ego, not learning through the ego. That's like, that's the danger for heritage learners learning through the ego. It's the worst. So June had had that experience where she had like prepared herself to be on Guam and then her family that spoke Chamorro, like really didn't speak Chamorro to her. Like she tried, but they wouldn't, they would just speak English to her. And it's--the dynamics are tricky. 'cause for most people you wanna be understood, right? And for most people, we have cognitive maps of the world. We see people in languages. And so if you see a particular person, a particular body, if there's a particular place, a lot of times our minds assign a language to it instinctively. And it doesn't mean you can't use any language there, but what happens is that your brain part of it will fire up and you'll enter--So like when I walk in here, oh, English, English. But when I go, you know, if I go into my grandma and grandpa's house, oh, Chamorro, Chamorro. And so having people kind of understand that. But so for June, she asked me, she's like, do you think it would be possible to create like a program, like an immersion program where students can like level up their learning? And I was like, of course. Will you help organize it? Because if you agree to help, then I will absolutely teach it and I will help organize it, but I just don't have the time or ability to like run the program. And so June, as they say in Chamorro, geftao, very, very generous, gof geftao. She took that task on in 2022. And then her and then Clarissa took the task on in 2023 the second year. And then this year we decided to bring it out to the diaspora because there are far more Chamorros that live out in the diaspora than live in the islands at this point. But there's almost no infrastructure out here for language learning. And so, it's been beautiful. It's been beautiful. Like, creating these spaces. It's also very exhausting. This type of work is so exhausting, but seeing sort of people come to the culture, come to the language, even just hearing the differences from day one to day five in terms of how much Chamorro they're using, it's difficult because we don't practice sort of like an aggressive immersion model. Because I always tell people, you know, aggressive immersion models can be effective, but they are also not fun. 00:50:13.034 --> 00:52:16.784 Like, one of our participants in the first year, Jesse Lujan Bennett, she has a--her husband is Maori and he-- she was in a Chamorro immersion program, he was in a Maori immersion program that same year. And so in our program, people were like crying every day about sort of their identity, coming to terms with things. And then Jesse asked her husband, are you guys crying every day? And he's like, no? It's a language immersion program. Why would we like do that? We're here to learn a language. And so--but it's a--one of these things is-- so one of --at least for me, the way that I see it is that it's a language and culture immersion program. And so what you're doing is you're giving people this robust connection to language and culture. You're giving them language for sure, but you are also trying to forge a connection that will increase the chances that they will continue to learn, or that they will continue to take up to Chamorro causes, whether at their work, in their family, in in life, social media, whatever. But just so that in--because--and it's kind of tricky because yeah, we're in the classroom all day and then part of me just wants to say no. Like, if you just wanna learn the language, then there has to be less space for you to talk about your feelings. But I also recognize that if you do that, then people may come away from this and say well--'cause this is the danger of second, you know, heritage learners, is that they don't have to learn the language. There's oftentimes not like a--there's a desire to learn it, perhaps like an identity based desire to learn it. But if it's unpleasant, then they simply will stop learning it. And so that's like the balance for it. If it's a bootcamp, then they'll just stop learning. 00:52:16.784 --> 00:53:31.425 And so that's the trade off. That's the trade off is trying to find a balance there where people get as much of the language as possible, but they also have the space where they can kind of come express their identity, talk about their feelings. Which unfortunately because of where they're at in their language level, has to be in English. And then--but fundamentally though, all of this puts them in a better position that they will come back to the Zoom classes to keep learning, or they will take up learning in another way in their family. Because this is about permeating the foundation of who they are as opposed--So oftentimes what we say is more than words, sort of the more aggressive language immersion models are words, words, conversation. You give people that and that's what they regurgitate. We have a more holistic model, which has its advantages, has its dis disadvantages, but it is rooted in this idea of that we are shaping sort of the larger person and their identity. So that hopefully yeah, they won't--this isn't their only experience in learning Chamorro. (Glances at the clock) Oh yeah. Five more minutes.. 00:53:31.425 --> 00:53:38.235 Oh wow! May I ask a question? 00:53:38.235 --> 00:53:38.244 Sure. 00:53:38.244 --> 00:53:55.255 I wanted to go back to 16-year-old you when your grandparents invited you to come home. What made you decide to say yes? Like what were you--where was your mind when you said yes? Was there any hesitation. 00:53:55.255 --> 00:57:24.804 At that time--there was definitely some hesitation, but at that time I was just really unhappy with sort of being in where my family was living in California and then just not knowing who I was. And not having any ability to like--not having any real answers. And, yeah. And so looking back on it, and I think part of it too, at least at that time, I was feeling frustrated with my mom and my stepdad and I wanted to kind of get a break from them and get away. And then on Guam I would be more free with my grandparents. And so I think a lot of it came down to that, just wanting to kind of get away. And I wouldn't have admitted at that time that I had questions about who I was. But, I definitely had those questions. I had no idea, like I didn't know where I fit in. And it's always been difficult for me as sort of like a--as a mixed race man with light complected, skin, dark, you know, sometimes dark features, dark hair, and then sometimes sort of passing, sometimes not passing and then never knowing when it's gonna work. So even like where my mom stayed in California in Atascadero, like I remember as a teenager looking for a job and I just went--there's a help wanted sign in like some sort of like antique store. And then I walked in and then like the owner basically says, no, not you, not your kind out. And I was just like, what? And I was just like--I mean, it was a very racially segregated town at that time. I mean, now it's a little bit more gentrified as people move up to escape cities and stuff. But at that time it was basically a lot of, farms and stuff and people that worked on the farms and people that owned the farms. And so--but it was everywhere I went. So like, I remember walking into a comic bookstore in San Luis Obispo once and I was walking around 'cause I didn't have a car 'cause my mother was working and I was waiting for her to finish. And then I just had found a stick and I was walking aong--so I was just like walking with like a stick. And then like, I walked into the store and then the owner was like, you need to get out of here. We don't allow weapons in here. And I'm like, it's just, it's just a stick. He's like, no, no. That's a deadly weapon in the right hands. And I'm like, I don't know how to use it as a deadly weapon. And he's like, you need to get outta here. And I'm just like, what? So it was like--I didn't--so this--these sorts of things happened a lot like in just these ways. That was always like surprising. And one of the things that always was hurtful for me was that my--the middle brother Jack. So there's, from my mom and my dad, there's Jack--there's me, Jack and Jeremy. And then my middle brother Jack is very white passing. And so when we would--like, so when we would go into places, like he would never get harassed or never like--but then I would sort of get like rude treatment or get followed in stores and stuff like that. And so like --and so it was just sort of like this weird thing like where do I belong? Like what is this? 00:57:24.804 --> 01:00:18.525 I don't even understand like why people hate me or don't like me. And I had--didn't have enough consciousness at that time to even like be like a brown power sort of person or like racial consciousness. It just, it just sucked. And it made me angry at my father, my white father. 'cause he definitely didn't understand a lot of that. 'cause my white father at that time, both of my parents kind of didn't understand. They just saw me as being sort of like a rebellious teen. And then even my brother didn't quite understand at that time either. And so, going to Guam made perfect sense because I--it took a little while, but I found a place where I belonged. Yeah. And that was like a great feeling. just like thinking--and I feel it here too, when my kids, who are my teenagers who are here with us, when they're go around and they sort of feel--they kind of like it that you go around in San Marcos and no one knows you. And I'm like, yeah, I know that. But then after a while, you might miss the fact that no one knows you. 'cause I start to miss that if I'm in the States for too long and you don't know anybody. I miss that. 'cause yes, it is draining and exhausting to be on a small island where lots of people know you and you have all these connections and obligations, but it's also a full life. And so for me, what I loved about going home was that I became tun Jack's--tun is a sign--a marker of respect, tun Jack Lujan's grandson. And that gave me a place, and it was a place that I struggled with sometimes, but I eventually came to like it. Representing my grandfather, representing my family. You know, I'm not the one that you go to if you want food for the party, but if you want a lecture about, you know, Guam history, I'm the one that you go to if you want research on our family background. I'm the one that you go to if you want something translated into Chamorro, I'm the one that you go to. And so finding a place that was going back to Guam was kind of the start of that. And then not knowing, you know, just all of this kind of ambiguity. And then finally realizing like going home and then standing next to my grandparents and then being their grandson, and then feeling the pressure off of me. Like, oh, I'm their grandson. This--these are my roots. And at first, not liking that a lot, but then eventually accepting it and embracing it and liking it and enjoying it a lot. But, so that's, that's one of the reasons why. 01:00:18.525 --> 01:00:42.905 Your grandparents obviously had a huge influence on you. And you also spoke briefly by your Auntie Eleanor. Can you tell me who--what other people had a profound effect on, on your life path, whether or not they were personal connections or even, public figures who you looked up to at the time, and now whether they're in your community or not? 01:00:42.905 --> 01:00:57.434 Oh, yeah. Let me think here. There's a number of people that I could definitely highlight. I'm trying to think if I want to do more language focused or-- 01:00:57.434 --> 01:01:06.105 Yeah. Maybe a, maybe a bit of both. 01:01:06.105 --> 01:03:03.485 So, yeah, one of the things that I like to do in the way that I teach and the way that I engage people is to kind of talk about sort of the figures from our history that can kind of inspire them to go past, their feelings of insecurity. So like, for example, yesterday we were focusing in the language immersion program on Chamorro music. And so we divided into groups. Groups had to sing some Chamorro songs. They also had to translate an English song into Chamorro and then sing it for everybody. And then today--oh, and then I talked about, for example, one of sort of the most famous Chamorro singers, a man named Johnny Sablan, who's still alive. And so I always use him as an example for learners, because when Johnny Sablan was 20 years old, he had already a career as like a teeny bopper recording English music in California. But he had an experience when he was going to college in Monterey, California, where he was part of like an ethnic culture club. An ethnic music club. And when his friends told him, Hey, Johnny, can you share some Guamese songs with us? And he realized, because Johnny Sablan could not speak Chamorro, he realized that he didn't know any Chamorro songs except for like religious songs, church songs. He didn't know any Chamorro songs. And so that experience, that experience basically led him then to go and seek out his elders and collect Chamorro songs. And then what he did is he sold his motorbike that he had in California, and he bought studio time. And instead of continuing to record in English, he decided to record the first ever Chamorro language album. 01:03:03.485 --> 01:05:45.505 And I told the students, and I always remind students, and I say, he did this even though he wasn't fluent in Chamorro. So he recorded elders who worked with him to pronounce the words correctly, to help him memorize the words. And even when you hear that first album you can tell that he messes up. And even the Chamorro musicians who did the backup music teased him and said, what are you doing making a Chamorro record? You can't even speak the language. You shouldn't be doing this. And he said, somebody's gotta do it. And so I always tell them, I say, I always try to highlight the figures who push against the grain, who push back, because I always say, for my students in my work, I always invoke the saying, Anggen ti hita pues håyi? if not us, then who? So if Johnny Sablan hadn't recorded that first ever Chamorro vinyl record in 1968, when would that have happened? Who would've done it? Like, who was the right person to do it? 'cause people told Johnny Sablan, you're not the right person to do it. And so I love to share stories like that. So every time I start a a new Zoom class, I always present a figure from our history who was a pioneer in the language in some way to help inspire the students. And usually there're people that I knew who inspired me as well. So for me, I remained inspired by Johnny Sablan. 'cause that idea that you would put yourself out there when you couldn't even fluently speak Chamorro, but to make a whole record and then just put it out there, it's--in Chamorro they say matatnga, brave. It's audacious. And so for language learners, you need that nowadays. You need some bravery, you need some audacious. And so I'm always--I always like to share stories like that to inspire students and say, look, Johnny Sablan is now a symbol of Chamorro culture and language. He was where you are at now. He couldn't speak Chamorro. He had a grandmother who didn't speak English. So he kind of had to pantomime and make do, and he could understand a little bit with what she said. But he struggled in Chamorro. He could not speak it, but he said that every people have an identity. Every people have a song. And even if the songs that he makes are different, that the music, the instruments have changed. It's important that the Chamorro people have music just like everybody else. 01:05:45.505 --> 01:05:53.394 And so I, I love that idea. Just like, don't get stuck up in the idea. Like, just do it. 01:05:53.394 --> 01:05:54.605 Have you ever met him? 01:05:54.605 --> 01:06:10.385 Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I know Johnny, he's still around. He's still around. I always try to sit down with an interview for him, but he's been sick for a while. So he's difficult to interview nowadays. But one of these days I'll get to sit down and just spend the afternoon with him. 01:06:10.385 --> 01:06:19.000 Oh, I hope so. I have so many more follow up questions, but I think we have to wrap up, unfortunately. 01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:20.097 Oh, no. 01:06:20.097 --> 01:06:24.813 Is there anything, feel free to (gestures at water) yeah. 01:06:24.813 --> 01:06:26.385 Oh yeah. 01:06:26.385 --> 01:06:33.224 Is there anything else that you would like to say? Anything I should have asked about? Anything you want to cover? oh, 01:06:33.224 --> 01:06:40.065 No, no. Thank you for letting me talk and ramble. 01:06:40.065 --> 01:06:42.090 Can I ask one more question? 01:06:42.090 --> 01:06:43.536 Of course. Of course. 01:06:43.536 --> 01:06:55.784 You talk about your children a lot, your four kids. What kind of world do you want to see for them? Whether Chamorro related climate, anything. Like what's your vision for them? 01:06:55.784 --> 01:08:56.185 Oh yeah. That was really one of the reasons why I started to teach the Chamorro language, was that I was speaking to my kids in Chamorro, my older kids, my current teenagers. And I was realizing though, that as they get older, there was no other kids their age that could speak Chamorro. They have no cousins that can speak Chamorro. There's some other children, 'cause there are like, immersion schools for youth that can, that are trying to bring up speakers. But in general, there was not speakers. And so I could see them that I would speak Chamorro to them, but for the rest of the world, they would just speak English and the language would kind of fade away. So I just started--so one motivation for starting just the organic community classes was just to try to get more people to speak Chamorro. And in a university, there's all sorts of issues, bureaucracy, and it can be very good to have that, but it can also be very problematic. So I just said, let's, let's do it as easy as possible, just a coffee shop and people show up and then, you know, so people take this on, not because they want credit, not because of this. People just show up because they wanna show up. And so I do feel definitely depressed at times because I know--so for example, with my two older children, they speak to each other in English. They speak to me only in Chamorro. And I only speak to them in Chamorro, but they speak to each other in English. And so it was something which I struggled with for a very long time. Trying to kind of get them more comfortable and confident in the language. But, but ultimately it's hard because there's no--studies show that, you know, that young children, they tend not to adopt the language of their families. They tend to adopt the language of their peers. 01:08:56.185 --> 01:11:29.795 And so if there's no one speaking Chamorro around them, then kids aren't gonna like be picking up Chamorro. They're not gonna be using it 'cause they don't assign it social value. And they certainly don't assign social value to something from their parents at that time. So yes. But a lot of what I do is sort of related to trying to improve things for them. I've told, so Sumåhi, my oldest is 17 and Sumåhi's very good at writing in Chamorro. She serves as the youth representative for the Chamorro Language Commission in Guam. And she does not like to acknowledge it, but is a star for all of the students here. Everyone here like adores Sumåhi. 'cause they see her as like the future of the language. And so when I talk to my older kids, I tell them it's like, you know, there's gonna be a place for you in this language, in this culture. Like, I'm, creating a place for you. It's up to you what you wanna do with it. You don't have to accept it. You don't have to do what I say. Soon you'll be old enough that you can make your own choices. But I do hope that you come home, I do hope that you keep this alive and then--'cause the idea that this language has existed for thousands of years, but then within the lifetime of my children, it could disappear. Makes me very sad. And so for my older child, she understands it more. She definitely understands it more. Although she's trying to figure out things in terms of her own life choices, like where she wants to go to college and what she wants to do. And she doesn't really like the fame that she has. 'cause people on Guam come up to her and they say, Sumåhi, you're so cool. Sumåhi, you're so cool. Can I get a picture with you? And Sumåhi's like, who are you (Speaking Chamorro). Who's this person? And so--so yes. But in time I'm hoping-- I give them the space so that they don't have to participate if they don't want to and that they can do--They--But I always tell them, I hope you find your way back. 'cause this is, you know, this makes our family special, this makes us special. And so. Yeah. 01:11:29.795 --> 01:13:46.585 'cause what I always like to tell people is there's so many different ways that you can express love of your culture, of your identity, but your language is one that cannot be replaced with other sort of exchangeable forms. So I always tease people and say that you can buy a thousand shirts that express your cultural pride. You can make a thousand recipes that express your cultural pride. You can make a thousand pieces of jewelry, get a thousand tattoos all over your body. But none of those things, and all those things are important, but none of them replace the connection that your language gives you to your past. And so the difference though is that you still cannot buy your language the way you can buy a t-shirt, where you can buy a tattoo, where you can buy food. And so that's part of my goal here, is to impress upon people that your language is an irreplaceable part of your culture. And so for those of you who are--who wanna take on the task of keeping it alive, you keep alive a connection to our ancestors that, yeah, that is actually more durable and more powerful than a lot of the other things that you can buy at a festival or online. Yeah, yeah. It's true because, for the Chamorro people, we were the first people--we were likely the first people to settle the Pacific Islands to leave somewhere in Asia, in boats, in ships, and then settle the Marianas Islands 3,500 - 4,000 years ago. And so I always try to impress upon people that what we brought with us, a lot of that has changed dramatically. But in our language, so many of the words that we use today, those are the words that were first spoken with, the first breaths that came over with those first sellers. 01:13:46.585 --> 01:14:10.524 And so it's a harder road to become fluent in your language, but it is a deeper connection. And so this is not to say that if you don't know your language, you are less of a Chamorro, but you cannot substitute your connection to your language with food tattoos or, or t-shirts. Yeah. 01:14:10.524 --> 01:14:14.045 Thank you. 01:14:14.045 --> 01:14:14.965 (Coughs) Oh, excuse me. 01:14:14.965 --> 01:14:17.604 That's Alright. Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Michael. 01:14:17.604 --> 01:14:19.425 Oh, no problem. To Michael. 01:14:19.425 --> 01:14:21.965 It was a pleasure. 01:14:21.965 --> 01:14:23.965 Oh no, thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.xml LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lujan Bevacqua, Miget (Michael). Interview July 12, 2024. Description An account of the resource Michael Lujan Bevacqua is a Chamorro educator, language teacher, and activist. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Guam and in California, the pivotal relationship with his grandparents and his path toward embracing his heritage and community. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-089 Subject The topic of the resource Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Language revival Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Grandparents Education Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-07-12 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Hawaii Guam Atascadero (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Prugraman Sinipok