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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Robert Sheehan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Lilian Serrano
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SerranoLilian_SheehanRobert_2022-04-06.xml
Interview Keyword
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Alianza Comunitaria
National Latino Research Center
Universidad Popular
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5.4 Oral History of Lilian Serrano, April 6, 2022 SC027-16 1:08:13 SC027 CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. California State University San Marcos Community organization Oxnard (Calif.) San Diego County (Calif.) Tijuana (Baja California, Mexico) Undocumented immigrants -- California -- San Diego County Alianza Comunitaria National Latino Research Center Universidad Popular Lilian Serrano Robert Sheehan Video SerranoLilian_SheehanRobert_2022-04-06.mp4 1:|23(2)|52(6)|66(5)|83(6)|100(11)|126(9)|138(4)|154(12)|174(1)|195(1)|210(1)|221(8)|234(12)|247(13)|266(4)|285(3)|296(7)|306(6)|322(11)|334(9)|350(4)|370(2)|382(5)|402(7)|438(2)|454(5)|467(11)|479(13)|503(5)|516(12)|530(4)|543(9)|555(9)|569(5)|581(1)|598(7)|611(7)|623(10)|637(1)|648(12)|665(1)|679(6)|691(11)|705(2)|717(8)|731(2)|744(3)|761(12)|774(1)|786(5)|799(5)|816(7)|827(13)|840(9)|857(7)|869(7)|883(1)|897(12)|909(10)|927(6)|943(9)|954(11)|967(16)|979(11)|996(9)|1008(5)|1021(11)|1056(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b6bf87a1a952cb442b90ba8ffd86ee22.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/Living in Tijuana Robert Sheehan: So today is April the sixth, 2022. It's a Wednesday at 1:03 PM. I am Robert Sheehan, a graduate student at California State University, San Marcos. And today I am interviewing Lilian Serrano for the university library, special collections, oral history project. Lilian, thank you for being here with me today. Lilian Serrano: Uh, yes. Thank you, Robert < ; laugh> ; Sheehan: I'd like to first start kind of by asking you about your childhood: when and where were you born? Serrano: I was actually born in Chula Vista here in San Diego County, very close to the border, but I was raised in Tijuana. So actually my parents didn't live in Chula Vista at the time when I was born. My parents, just like many other border residents, took advantage of the geographic location where they were living at, and seek the best healthcare they could afford. And for my parents who were Tijuana residents, that meant Chula Vista. So I was born in Chula Vista. Sheehan: Okay. So you were born as an American citizen? Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: And your parents were still in Mexico? Serrano: Yes. Like I said my family is a transnational family that has made Tijuana/San Diego our home for many generations now. So, my parents were residents of Tijuana. They're Mexican citizens. And there is actually, um, contrary to public belief, there's actually nothing illegal about folks coming in and -- Robert, give me one second. Sheehan: Sure. [Interview interrupted] Sheehan: Hi, we are resuming the interview at 1:05. Lilian, you were talking about your parents in Tijuana and how they, uh, it was a common thing for people to move between the border. Serrano: Yeah, it continues to be actually a common thing for residents of the border region. My family has been going back and forth from the border to the U.S. and Mexico side for at least five generations now. But my family, it is all originally from Mexico. So, my parents as Mexican citizens and as Tijuana residents -- actually, both my parents were born and raised in Tijuana. Their whole lives, they cross back and forth between San Diego to Tijuana. They had at the time when I was born, they had their tourist visas. And like I was mentioning, contrary to popular belief, there's nothing illegal about folks being able, uh, receiving medical service in the U.S. as long as they're paying for them. And that's what my parents did at the time. They were able to, you know, afford to pay for every doctor visit, every medicine, everything that involves giving birth. So they did. And I was born in Chula Vista. And so did the rest of my sisters. So, there's three of us. All of us were born in Chula Vista and then actually a lot of my cousins and even just family friends that I grew up with. All of us, a lot of us, were born in, this U.S. side of the border, but we lived Tijuana to Mexican parents. Sheehan: That's very, very interesting. So do you still live on the American side of the border? Serrano: Yes, so actually it wasn't until I was probably about two weeks right before my 14th birthday that my family decided--and I mean they had been talking about it for a while--but they decided that it was time we made the hard decision of leaving, our hometown, my parent’s hometown, right, Tijuana, to the United States. And we moved to Oxnard, California in Ventura County. A small [unclear] cultural town where my great grandma had moved, like I said, many years before I was even born. And my grandparents were living there at the time. So my parents made the decision to move us to the United States. And I've been residing in the United States since I was two weeks before my 14th birthday until present. Sheehan: So do you still have family then south of the border in Tijuana? Serrano: Yeah, the house where I grew up, we still have it there. So I go visit. I still have a lot of family friends, family members, you know, aunts and uncles, cousins. Some of my cousins who are U.S. citizens that continue to live in Tijuana, I don't think really, they have ever in their entire lives, and they're like in their thirties now, ever lived actually live in the United States. They come visit, but they don't live here, their U.S. citizens that live in Tijuana. Chula Vista ; Oxnard ; Tijuana ; Transnational Families 550 Transition from middle school in Tijuana to high school in Oxnard Sheehan: So growing up, you went to school all the way up until the beginning of high school in Mexico. Serrano: Yeah, actually, I did up to one year of middle school. And because of when like the U.S. and Mexico, we don't have a synched schedule when we cut the birthdays to like a new grade. I ended up following this like gap in between, so I skipped eighth grade. < ; laugh> ; I didn't have eighth grade either in Mexico or here. So I did everything from preschool to seventh grade in Mexico. And then I moved to Oxnard to start ninth grade, or high school. So that's where I started my high school. And I did all my high school in Oxnard. Graduated from Oxnard High School. Sheehan: And how was that transition from a Mexican middle school to an American high school? Serrano: It was interesting. < ; laugh> ; It was very, um, I mean, once again, I had the privilege I think that a lot of folks don't have of my parents were, um, used to be able to afford for me to go to private schools. Now they were not the biggest, most popular or, you know, expensive private schools, but nonetheless, they were private schools. So I was able to get some extra help in my classes. I was used to my class sizes being about 15 to 20 students and that 20 students was a big class for us. Most of, for the most part, I had small classes in size. And I used to, you know, have just your regular, I guess, subjects. Right. History, um, I didn't have English. I had Spanish. English was taught as the foreign language. So when I transitioned to the United States, I transitioned from small classroom size, um, class to now being put in a public school in a community that lacks a lot of resources. So I was thrown into high school with now being the culture clash of my class now double in size. I didn't have as much support from teachers plus the language. Right. Like I struggled with my English. I didn't really, I don't think I really spoke English before I started high school. So now I had to learn the language. So I was placed in ELD or ESL classes. I was placed also in what was offered at the time for bilingual classes, which was really lower like level math and the lowest level of science and basically all of the subjects. And even at the time, right. I remember very clearly having the conversation with my math teacher. They did an assessment ; my math skills were actually really advanced for ninth graders. Because once again, I had had the support and I develop my math skills. But because of language, I was not able to be placed on the correct level of class because that level of class was not offered for ESL students. So I had to be placed in pre-algebra even though I had skills to be placed, I think in like geometry, which was at least one year, if not, two advanced. But I just didn't understand the language < ; laugh> ; . So that was a challenge for sure. I was also, once again, because I understood very clearly to me that the sacrifice my family was making was just to give me and my sisters opportunity to attend college. And me and my older sister had also that pressure, right. Now we have to make sure that our family sacrifice was worth it. So we had always, you know, since my first day of high school I had in mind that I was there to learn and to meet all the requirements to go to a four-year university. So as an ESL student that really meant having to reclassify, right? Like having to go through the whole process, finish and learn and acquire enough English skills to be able to be placed in college prep classes to then be able to meet the A through G requirements. All of that in the lapse of four years. And actually, I was able to achieve that. I ended up, um, I always kind of joke, but not really with my friends that I had to do the A through G requirements, which is supposed to take you four years. I completed those in two years. ‘Cause I took the first two years of my high school to really just learn the language. And then, like I said, gain enough proficiency to be able to be placed in college prep classes. And then it took me two years, which meant took classes before school, after school, attended community college classes during the summer. And any opportunity that I could to, like, I took to be able to gain those, uh, or be able to meet the A through G requirements that allowed me then my senior year apply to a four-year university. And not just apply, but actually be accepted. So I gained acceptance to a few universities actually. I think, I don't remember receiving any letter denying my acceptance. Then it became a matter of where I was gonna go. And I chose Cal State San Marcos. ESL ; high school ; Oxnard 879 Experience with bilingual program in high school Sheehan: So that was quite the journey then to come from Mexico and, like you said, to only have basically two years of that kind of more advanced high school because the school didn't have a bilingual program. So they placed you at a lower level. Do you think the-- Serrano: I mean, we did have a bilingual program, but the bilingual program was, we didn't have all the levels of math, all the levels of science proficiency in bilingual, right. Like, they just had like the beginner. So for those of us who had had the opportunity to actually have, uh, acquire some, you know, skills in our home countries or the countries we were coming from, and we were placed in the beginner just because they, it was not that many of us for them to create a full class. Plus, I'm pretty sure the school didn't have the resources to do that. Sheehan: Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is, do you think that's endemic in American schools? They don't have the resources to teach children of immigrants. Serrano: Definitely. I mean, even though I'm not technically an immigrant, right. Because of my experience of coming from a different educational system and really living in, in outside of the United States and then coming in and learning the language, I did experience a little bit of what some folks experience when they transitioned into United States at a young age. So all of my classmates in high school and all my friends--really because our classmates become our friends at that age, especially as you're new in a new city--all of my classmates and friends for the most part were immigrants. Folks who were born outside of the United States. And we were all coming from very different backgrounds. Given the type of industry that prevails in Oxnard, a lot of them were coming from small village in Mexico and/or Central America in which their families were farmers. So when they came to United States, that's what they were gonna do. They were gonna be farm workers. So definitely, a lot of my classmates had never attended a formal school ever in their lives. Some of them were struggling to learn Spanish actually because their first language was an indigenous language. And some of them, you know, were still struggling with the education. So for them, definitely, they needed that kind of low math and low science classes because they didn't have the basic skills to be able to learn more advanced math. But for some of us--and it was, we were the minority, I guess, in that group that had had those opportunities outside of the United States--we were still placed in the same level of math and science, just because our English was just not at the same level as a regular high school student. So there is a lot of diversity, I will say among immigrant youth. And a lot of times we don't get to see that because we are focused only on those who have the biggest needs, I guess. bilingual education ; ESL ; high school ; immigrants ; Spanish 1266 Being in a multi-status family while studying at CSUSM Sheehan: Okay. Yeah. < ; laugh> ; So moving on then from high school going into college, you said you went to Cal State San Marcos, is that correct? Serrano: Yes. Yes, I decided that when I was looking at all the options, I guess I had, um, really, I didn't have that many options. I was happy and, you know, excited when I got all those accepting letters as a senior, especially, you know, I had you share, I had a tough journey. The reality was that my parents were still farm workers. The reality was my family was still struggling and I was going to get a lot of emotional support, but not financial support. So I was looking for a college that will help me financially. That will feel right for me. I was also looking for that, like home feel to it. And I also knew that I performed better in smaller classrooms. So for me, Cal State San Marcos definitely met all those things I was looking for. Also, I had, initially my sister originally, my older sister started at Cal State San Marcos. So when I chose that school, I also had the hope that we were both gonna be attending together. That ended up not happening. She ended up, unfortunately like many students, dropping out before I was able to join her. But the campus is still within the border region. It's still only a few minutes away from Tijuana and Chula Vista where I actually have a lot of family members. But at the same time, it was not close enough for me to feel like I was gonna go with my family. I still felt, you know, as a teenager, I was also looking to get away from family. So Cal State San Marcos provided that perfect in between. At least for me. And then also once again, being a smaller campus, a campus that had small class sizes. Also, we have a college assistant migrant program who once again, as a daughter of farm workers, provided a lot of support, especially my first year. So all of those were like incentives for me to pick Cal State San Marcos and decide to move back in 2008. college ; immigration status ; San Marcos ; undocumented 1692 Student Activism and the National Latino Research Center Sheehan: I have a, well, that leads me to my next question, actually. Coming from a multi-status family, did that impact your choice of career? Serrano: It did. It did. I think, indirectly, but it did. I went to high school once again, it kind of all goes back to high school years, right. ‘Cause for most of us, those are our formative years, right. The years where, even though we're making decisions unconsciously, that ends up impacting what we do. So when I was in high school, this was in 2006. I remember very vividly that Congress was having a conversation around undocumented immigrants and around, and how some politicians at the time were really pushing to criminalize undocumented immigrants. Currently being undocumented in the United States is a civil offense. It's not a criminal offense, but at the time there were a lot of pushing, a lot of conversations around criminalizing that, really making it a felony to be undocumented and or helping undocumented folks. So as a teenager that was literally struggling to learn English struggling, like kind of in a way I feel identified with the immigrant experience. I knew my parents were undocumented. Most of my friends were immigrants and a lot of them were undocumented. I felt these folks were speaking directly to my community, right. Directly to my family. Directly about my friends. And I knew that it wasn't true. Everything that they were saying was not true. That was not reflective of my experience and what I was seeing every day. So, 2006, there was a mass movement around immigrant rights. A push for an immigration reform and really to change that dialogue about how we were talking about undocumented immigrants. And as a high school student, I just jumped on board. I joined the protests. I ended up walking out of my high school. Like a lot of folks did back in 2006, we saw high school walkouts all throughout the state of California. I joined that movement, not knowing anything. I didn't know what the real implications of the conversations were. I didn't know how Congress works. I didn't know how we make laws. I just knew that what I was hearing and what I was watching on TV, like through the news was not right. So fast forward to when I started as a student at Cal State San Marcos. I had already had my first encounter with MEChA, which stands for Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan. And as a high school student, a lot of high schools do have MEChA. My high school didn’t. But when we started, you know, getting involved in organizing walkouts and protests, it was college students at the nearest community college who were involved with MEChA, who came out to make sure that police was not harassing us. To come out, to tell us like, Okay, this is what you do to stay safe during a protest. college ; immigrant rights ; immigration status ; MEChA ; National Latino Research Center ; San Marcos ; student activism 2125 From student activist to community organizer Sheehan: < ; laugh> ; . And so what resources can people use in North County that you've helped develop? Serrano: Yeah. So, through Universidad Popular we have developed classes, community classes where folks can actually start learning about the history of Latinos in the United States. It's all coming from a Chicano Studies lens. And for me like that, I also, it was in a Chicano Studies classes where I felt like empowered and I was able to feel that I could merge, right, like my knowledge and my experience with my education. So we definitely find that that's the perfect platform for, uh, to start that. So, we also have classes that help folks learn the history and civics of the United States to then be able to become citizens. So a lot of folks don't know, but undocumented folks, sorry, immigrants. Immigrants who are applying to become U.S. citizens have to pass a history and civics test before they're able to do that. So we help them study. We help them connect with attorneys or immigration attorneys that are able to, you know, assist them in the process of filling out their application. I myself sometimes serve as the interpreter. So I actually go with folks who are eligible to take their interviews in Spanish. I sit through there and I help them translate. And then, you know, we help them get through the finish line of becoming U.S. citizens. And after that, I help them register to vote. And then we also have some voter education classes and just activities in general, every time there's an election, in which we help first, new citizens register to vote, learning how to vote. Because voting is not as easy as it seems for those of us who are fluent in English and who are, um, grew up around our electoral system. And also, just learning about the candidates and, you know, the information or where to find information about the candidates. So you can make the right decisions for yourself and for your families. I also have helped develop an alert system specifically here in North County and that is part of what I've been doing now for many, many years on a volunteer basis. We developed an alert system that lets folks know when there is the presence of a checkpoint, a police--usually they're called DUI checkpoints--but the reality, we know that in the immigrant community, the perception is definitely that they are not there to catch folks who are driving under the influence, but really to catch folks who are driving without a license. Which is a lot of undocumented folks. And we haven't seen this in the last few years. But over 10 years ago, when this system started, we used to see a lot of collaboration with Border Patrol. So, I personally witnessed DUI checkpoints in which Border Patrol was standing right next to the officer or a block away. Right. So if you were somebody that was driving without a license and you look a certain way, you were Spanish speaker, you were for the most part presumed to be undocumented, and Border Patrol will be there to ask for your immigration status. And we also, unfortunately, documented some stories of folks that ended up being put in deportation procedures through this process. So we helped create an alert system in which when there's a DUI checkpoint in our community, when there's a Border Patrol checkpoint and, or an immigration raid, you know, in North County. And by North County, we really mean all the communities that touch the 78 and 76 corridors. So the cities of Oceanside and Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, and all of the unincorporated areas of Valley Center, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Pala, Fallbrook. Whenever there is one of those instances, we're able to send out a text message alert that goes to over 8,000 unique contacts. Plus, we're able to also to post information on our social media. All combined, we are able to reach anything between 50,000 to 100,000 community members, primarily Spanish speakers who live in North County. And a lot of them we know are immigrants. Alianza Comunitaria ; Border Patrol ; DUI checkpoint ; immigrant rights ; immigrants ; immigration status ; law enforcement ; North County ; social media ; Universidad Popular 2819 Advocating for Immigrant Rights Sheehan: That's really, really incredible. You said you've seen these DUI checkpoints where really Border Patrol is kind of hanging out there trying to catch undocumented persons. Have you experienced any other issues that immigrants face in, you know, the border region? Serrano: Yeah. I mean and, you know, just to clarify, that was many years back. Like close to 10 years back. And the reason I make that clarification is because things have changed. Policies and laws really for the state of California has changed that make that illegal to an extent < ; laugh> ; . So, I just wanna clarify that because I don't want the departments coming after me, like, you're saying we're violating the law. That's not true. Yes. But you did at one point. < ; laugh> ; Yes. I mean, there is a lot of challenges. Like I said, at this point I've been working with the immigrant community in North County for over 10 years. And there are challenges at all levels, from parents trying to navigate the schools. To folks not being able to access healthcare. We know that, unfortunately, undocumented folks, even if they qualify because of income and you know, the other requirements for medical, they're not able to access it just because of their immigration status. So I had to, even with my own family, have to navigate the system, or try to navigate the system because there's really no navigation when you're being denied services, because you don't have health insurance. And you're not able to access health insurance because you cannot afford private. And the ones that are subsidized by the government, you don't qualify because of your immigration status. So for me personally, that has been an important fight to ensure that our safety net is open, right. For the state of California our safety net is open for all of us, regardless of immigration status. We have been able to have some win. So as my work out in the community through Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular, I became an advocate for immigrant rights. So right now, we are in April 6th, 2022. And we're very excited because starting May 1st, so in a few couple of weeks, undocumented immigrants 50 years and older will be able to access full scope Medi-Cal if they qualify based on income regardless of their immigration status. So that is a huge win that took us many years. Literally, I had trips to these, sorry, to Sacramento. I have taken the 12-hour bus--and I know how long it takes--12-hour bus to Sacramento with undocumented folks. With folks who are cancer survivors. With folks who are dealing with diabetes and all kinds of chronic disease from North County. Here from our local community who have been living here 20, 30 years. Who have U.S. citizen kids, right. Who are doing everything on their end to be good members of our community. Who are blocked from receiving health services because of their immigration status. So I had the privilege of getting to know them, learning their story, helping them prepare and really become advocates for their own, uh, for themselves and their families. And now, you know, a few years later we are seeing some results from that advocacy. As we are changing the laws and really changing the way undocumented immigrants are perceived in our community. Of course, that has been statewide efforts, right. Like we are part of some statewide coalitions that have been able to bring us those results. But I can tell you that North County, San Diego has been part of all those conversations throughout the years in part, because of the work that me and other folks have been doing. Alianza Comunitaria ; health care ; immigrants ; immigration status ; legislation ; North County ; Universidad Popular 3294 SB54 California Values Act and Immigration Enforcement Sheehan: And so that, is it a bill or a law that's going into effect in May? That's a big win for the immigrant rights group. Is there any other progress that kind of stands out to you in the past 20 years? Serrano: Definitely. For me, the one that I was also very passionate and really sparked my interest in learning how advocacy works at the state level is the passage of SB 54 or the California Values Act back in 2000 and 2017. < ; laugh> ; Yes, it went into effect in January of 2018. So the SB 54, the California Values Act is also known at the national level as the California Sanctuary Law, which really prohibits law enforcement from collaborating with immigration enforcement. That's the law that I was hinting earlier < ; laugh> ; about me making sure that I clarify that those incidents happened before 2018. Because in the state of California--and we were the first state in the nation--and actually now a few years later, some states have been following our lead in ensuring that law enforcement, your local police department are not in the business of deporting community members. When we first started talking about--going back to my experience here in North County, right. I was involved in the community. I knew about this DUI checkpoints. They were becoming a ridiculous thing where we documented checkpoints on a Tuesday at 10:00 AM in front of a high school in Escondido. What drunk driver is driving at 10:00 AM in front of a high school on a Tuesday? And I mean, I know there might be folks driving under the influence at the time, but they’re definitely folks who need help. Because we were seeing the DUI checkpoints and not outside of bars, right. They're not there--once again, it was obvious to us that they were not targeting drunk drivers. They were targeting undocumented immigrants. And they were targeting because they were able to impound the car because at the time undocumented immigrants couldn't get a license. And once again, we were seeing immigration enforcement presence. So we were able to first tackle the license. So the state of California became the first, uh, one of the first states to give undocumented driver's licenses. But for us here in North County, we knew that the problem was really the collaboration, the close collaboration between immigration enforcement and law enforcement. A lot of folks don't know this, but the Escondido Police Department was one of the first ones to launch a pilot where ICE agents, or immigration enforcement agents, were literally riding along with the police department. They had an office within our department headquarters. They were one in the same, basically. That later translated in laws in the states of Arizona and other places. So we knew that North County had something to do with the birth of that collaboration. So we needed to be part of the disentanglement of that collaboration. We worked with legislators for many years, and finally in 2018 in the state of California, now it's illegal for police departments to fully collaborate with immigration enforcement. Unfortunately, there's still some exceptions to the law, so there continues to be collaboration. We continue to fight every single one of the forms of collaboration. But for the most part, the state of California is able to say that our law enforcement doesn't collaborate with immigration enforcement. And that has been part of the result of the advocacy that happened statewide. But I can say that Escondido specifically was constantly brought up in those conversations because we were one of the first departments to start that collaboration. So then we were definitely one of the first to stop after the state law was passed. Sheehan: And so do other border states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, do they have similar laws to what California is or do they even consider having those laws? Serrano: I think in the state of Arizona and Texas actually had been having the opposite fight. The state of Arizona was one of the first, I think it was the first to launch it statewide, to not just allow the collaboration, but it was almost like demand law enforcement to collaborate with immigration enforcement and demand law enforcement to become one in the same with immigration. So, yes, Arizona, sorry, California is right now the only one that has that state law, at least for the bordering states. I think the other one that will be kind of like a good example of the work on the opposite will be New York. And definitely some of the smaller states are. Their laws are not as strong as ours, but they are definitely on the way there to hopefully disentangle that. California Sanctuary Law ; California Values Act ; DUI checkpoints ; Escondido ; immigrant rights ; immigration status ; law enforcement ; North County 3612 Growing Latino Population, Redistricting in San Diego County, and Conclusion Sheehan: So that kind of brings me to the end of my questions here. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything you'd like to share? Serrano: Um, let me think. < ; laugh> ; I know I talked to you about many, many different things, but I think for me, something that resonates a lot the work that we've been doing is recently the whole San Diego County went through the redistricting process. For those who don't know, redistricting happens every 10 years after a census count. Now, when I arrived to this region, it was right before the last census in 2010. I arrived to North County in 2008. And I knew that there was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Spanish speakers, right. I felt right at home. But the 2010 census was severely undercounted Latinos. Now in 2020 census, I was able join the efforts to ensure that folks were counted. And even though we continue to see a severe undercount for our communities, now as we have the count and we get to redistrict our community, we get to say that the North County district, which right now will be District 5 for the County Board of Supervisors, is at least 45% Latino. So that to me just goes to show the amount of growth that our Latino community, immigrant communities, have had in North County. And, it was recent, but we are starting to see a trend on the change of policy makers. So we are seeing a lot of Latinos, a lot of immigrants and/or the children of immigrants being elected to school boards, being elected to city councils. You know, crossing fingers. So we will see them at the Board of Supervisors, and we will see them at the state and federal level representing North County. And I think for me, as somebody that has done a lot of work in this region in the last 10 years, it just goes to show the power our community has when we organize ourselves and we imagine what can be done. It wasn't there before. Because I remember 2008 when I arrived, this was a very conservative community, and it continues to be conservative, but it was, uh, I remember it was at Cal State San Marcos, the first time a peer, somebody my age called me beaner and told me to go back to Mexico. So that is the reality for a lot of families in North County. The racism that was just open and accepted, right. The practice by our policy makers and even by our neighbors of denigrating you because you're Mexican. Telling you to speak English because this is the United States or telling us to go back to Mexico. Even for folks who are not even originally from Mexico, right. Our Central American community members were being told to go back to Mexico. Fast forward to 10 years now, even though I recognize that we continue to be a very conservative community, North County is changing. And it's changing because the number of Latinos is increasing, and we are now creating a Latino leadership in a region. And I don't know if our administrators at Cal State San Marcos know, but in part is because of the presence of Cal State San Marcos. Because nowadays as an alum, as a Latina, as a Spanish speaker, I run into so many folks who have attended San Marcos, who are from this community and who are creating change. And we expect that that will continue to create an impact in our region. Sheehan: And so in the 2010 census, there were more immigrants here than the census showed. And then in 2020, that number had grown. What do you think keeps people from wanting to participate in that census? Is it a fear of deportation? Serrano: Yeah, definitely. When you're undocumented you want nothing to do with the government. Government is your enemy. And in part that has been because of our doing, as the United States. We have used every-- you know, it's almost like when we talk about immigration, it comes in waves, right. And every time that there is this like conservative tough on immigrant approach, we create fear, and we create cases in which folks get deported from our communities. Obama, the Obama administration has the record on deportations in all of the country. So when a Democrat president is deporting your family, and now you have another new administration, even if it's Democrat, Republican. As an immigrant, you fear them. They're your enemy. Regardless of who they are like, they're your enemy because they are the ones responsible for separating your family and/or separating a family that you know. So when you are undocumented, the government is your enemy and any interaction you avoid. And that's what we saw with the census, right. Even though the census should have absolutely nothing to do with immigration enforcement, folks are afraid of it because they don't know how it could be used against them. Also, unfortunately in 2020, the president that we had at the time, President Trump decided to make it a political move and decided and pushed really hard to include immigration questions on the census, which include a citizenship question. He really fought really hard to include those questions. Even though a court decided not to side with him, and they ended up siding with creating a census that will be more inviting for folks to participate versus creating questions that will prevent folks from feeling as safe participating. And those questions didn't make it to the questionnaire. The president coming on TV already saying that he wanted to use that as part of his immigration enforcement, nobody could take that away from us. So it was fresh on people's memories and I myself, right. Like me and my team, we were out there doing outreach for the census, and we will always get questions. “And how is Trump gonna use this against me?”, right. “How is this gonna be part of the deportation process?” And I can tell them a hundred times that that was not the case, but once again, they had already seen the president be on TV saying that it would be used against them. So those were some of the challenges that we saw with the census. Cal State San Marcos ; Escondido ; immigrants ; Latino population ; North County ; redistricting ; San Marcos ; U.S. Census Oral History Lilian Serrano is a California State San Marcos alum. She graduated with a degree in Human Development. Lilian worked with the National Latino Research Center (NLRC) at Cal State San Marcos before moving on to work with Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular. In this interview, Lilian discusses family life and growing up in Tijuana and Oxnard, her experiences as a student activist at CSUSM, and her work as an advocate for immigrant rights in North County. Robert Sheehan: So today is April the sixth, 2022. It' ; s a Wednesday at 1:03 PM. I am Robert Sheehan, a graduate student at California State University, San Marcos. And today I am interviewing Lilian Serrano for the university library, special collections, oral history project. Lilian, thank you for being here with me today. Lilian Serrano: Uh, yes. Thank you, Robert < ; laugh> ; Sheehan: I' ; d like to first start kind of by asking you about your childhood: when and where were you born? Serrano: I was actually born in Chula Vista here in San Diego County, very close to the border, but I was raised in Tijuana. So actually my parents didn' ; t live in Chula Vista at the time when I was born. My parents, just like many other border residents, took advantage of the geographic location where they were living at, and seek the best healthcare they could afford. And for my parents who were Tijuana residents, that meant Chula Vista. So I was born in Chula Vista. Sheehan: Okay. So you were born as an American citizen? Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: And your parents were still in Mexico? Serrano: Yes. Like I said my family is a transnational family that has made Tijuana/San Diego our home for many generations now. So, my parents were residents of Tijuana. They' ; re Mexican citizens. And there is actually, um, contrary to public belief, there' ; s actually nothing illegal about folks coming in and -- Robert, give me one second. Sheehan: Sure. [Interview interrupted] Sheehan: Hi, we are resuming the interview at 1:05. Lilian, you were talking about your parents in Tijuana and how they, uh, it was a common thing for people to move between the border. Serrano: Yeah, it continues to be actually a common thing for residents of the border region. My family has been going back and forth from the border to the U.S. and Mexico side for at least five generations now. But my family, it is all originally from Mexico. So, my parents as Mexican citizens and as Tijuana residents -- actually, both my parents were born and raised in Tijuana. Their whole lives, they cross back and forth between San Diego to Tijuana. They had at the time when I was born, they had their tourist visas. And like I was mentioning, contrary to popular belief, there' ; s nothing illegal about folks being able, uh, receiving medical service in the U.S. as long as they' ; re paying for them. And that' ; s what my parents did at the time. They were able to, you know, afford to pay for every doctor visit, every medicine, everything that involves giving birth. So they did. And I was born in Chula Vista. And so did the rest of my sisters. So, there' ; s three of us. All of us were born in Chula Vista and then actually a lot of my cousins and even just family friends that I grew up with. All of us, a lot of us, were born in, this U.S. side of the border, but we lived Tijuana to Mexican parents. Sheehan: That' ; s very, very interesting. So do you still live on the American side of the border? Serrano: Yes, so actually it wasn' ; t until I was probably about two weeks right before my 14th birthday that my family decided--and I mean they had been talking about it for a while--but they decided that it was time we made the hard decision of leaving, our hometown, my parent' ; s hometown, right, Tijuana, to the United States. And we moved to Oxnard, California in Ventura County. A small [unclear] cultural town where my great grandma had moved, like I said, many years before I was even born. And my grandparents were living there at the time. So my parents made the decision to move us to the United States. And I' ; ve been residing in the United States since I was two weeks before my 14th birthday until present. Sheehan: So do you still have family then south of the border in Tijuana? Serrano: Yeah, the house where I grew up, we still have it there. So I go visit. I still have a lot of family friends, family members, you know, aunts and uncles, cousins. Some of my cousins who are U.S. citizens that continue to live in Tijuana, I don' ; t think really, they have ever in their entire lives, and they' ; re like in their thirties now, ever lived actually live in the United States. They come visit, but they don' ; t live here, their U.S. citizens that live in Tijuana. Sheehan: Wow. So what did your parents do for living, Serrano: When now, or < ; laugh> ; ? Sheehan: Well, both when back then and now what do they do? Serrano: So, at the, uh, when, you know, back when I was born my parents had their own business. So, you know, that goes back to the ability to have a visa and actually be able to afford medical services. Also, I mean, giving birth back then, according to what my parents share with me, wasn' ; t as expensive as it is now, right. Affording a medical services wasn' ; t as expense. So my parents were definitely what some folks will consider maybe lower middle class, ' ; cause they had their own small business. A family run business. And so that' ; s what they did for a living. As things start getting more complicated and you know, big corporations start coming in and it was just harder for them to keep up with their small business. That is actually a big part. That and the reality that hit them, that they had three girls aging, almost approaching college time and looking at college tuitions, not being as affordable. That the reality of them having to move the family to the United States to seek better opportunities. That' ; s when they made that tough decision. So, they shut down their business and they moved to, like I said, to Oxnard, California. And Oxnard is a primarily agricultural town. So when they first arrived, my parents went from being business owners to them being farm workers. So my dad actually worked out in the tomato fields. It wasn' ; t for a long time, but he nonetheless, the continue of the years, he continued to do work that indirectly was related to the agricultural field. From packing plants to transportation centers, and warehouse and everything that is involved within the production of fresh produce. And so did my mom. Actually, my mom until not a long time ago worked at packing vegetables. Just different variety of vegetables--tomatoes, avocados, broccoli. I think the list goes on. But my parents were for all my high school and most of my college years, they were considered farm workers. Nowadays as they are a little older--and they just recently moved to San Diego County--my dad is not working right now because of his health condition. And my mom, is uh, she' ; s working at a manufacturing job. Labor work. Sheehan: And what was their small business in Mexico? What did they do? Serrano: Yeah, they had a little store, a little market. It' ; s called abarrotes in Mexico. So, they sell a little bit of everything. You know, fresh produce, meats. Just like any corner convenient little market store that you can think of. That that' ; s what my parents did. That business was actually originally opened by my great-grandparents when they first arrived to Tijuana and it was passed down generations until it was my parents who, once again, had to make the tough decision of shutting it down. Sheehan: So that really must have been a difficult decision to make, to leave all that behind. Serrano: It definitely was. I know that they invested many years of their lives. I mean, my mom grew up in that business. By the time my mom was born that my great grandparents already had the business. So, you know, my mom grew up there. I spent most the first, at least half of my life right there. Anything from having to help clean up the business to sometimes as I was getting older, having to take care of the registry and, you know, like just handling cash, fixing, restocking, everything, right? Like we, we have that in common with my mom where we both, we all grew up in that store. But yeah, it was a tough decision, but I think, you know, like most parents, they did what they had to do. Sheehan: So growing up, you went to school all the way up until the beginning of high school in Mexico. Serrano: Yeah, actually, I did up to one year of middle school. And because of when like the U.S. and Mexico, we don' ; t have a synched schedule when we cut the birthdays to like a new grade. I ended up following this like gap in between, so I skipped eighth grade. < ; laugh> ; I didn' ; t have eighth grade either in Mexico or here. So I did everything from preschool to seventh grade in Mexico. And then I moved to Oxnard to start ninth grade, or high school. So that' ; s where I started my high school. And I did all my high school in Oxnard. Graduated from Oxnard High School. Sheehan: And how was that transition from a Mexican middle school to an American high school? Serrano: It was interesting. < ; laugh> ; It was very, um, I mean, once again, I had the privilege I think that a lot of folks don' ; t have of my parents were, um, used to be able to afford for me to go to private schools. Now they were not the biggest, most popular or, you know, expensive private schools, but nonetheless, they were private schools. So I was able to get some extra help in my classes. I was used to my class sizes being about 15 to 20 students and that 20 students was a big class for us. Most of, for the most part, I had small classes in size. And I used to, you know, have just your regular, I guess, subjects. Right. History, um, I didn' ; t have English. I had Spanish. English was taught as the foreign language. So when I transitioned to the United States, I transitioned from small classroom size, um, class to now being put in a public school in a community that lacks a lot of resources. So I was thrown into high school with now being the culture clash of my class now double in size. I didn' ; t have as much support from teachers plus the language. Right. Like I struggled with my English. I didn' ; t really, I don' ; t think I really spoke English before I started high school. So now I had to learn the language. So I was placed in ELD or ESL classes. I was placed also in what was offered at the time for bilingual classes, which was really lower like level math and the lowest level of science and basically all of the subjects. And even at the time, right. I remember very clearly having the conversation with my math teacher. They did an assessment ; my math skills were actually really advanced for ninth graders. Because once again, I had had the support and I develop my math skills. But because of language, I was not able to be placed on the correct level of class because that level of class was not offered for ESL students. So I had to be placed in pre-algebra even though I had skills to be placed, I think in like geometry, which was at least one year, if not, two advanced. But I just didn' ; t understand the language < ; laugh> ; . So that was a challenge for sure. I was also, once again, because I understood very clearly to me that the sacrifice my family was making was just to give me and my sisters opportunity to attend college. And me and my older sister had also that pressure, right. Now we have to make sure that our family sacrifice was worth it. So we had always, you know, since my first day of high school I had in mind that I was there to learn and to meet all the requirements to go to a four-year university. So as an ESL student that really meant having to reclassify, right? Like having to go through the whole process, finish and learn and acquire enough English skills to be able to be placed in college prep classes to then be able to meet the A through G requirements. All of that in the lapse of four years. And actually, I was able to achieve that. I ended up, um, I always kind of joke, but not really with my friends that I had to do the A through G requirements, which is supposed to take you four years. I completed those in two years. ' ; Cause I took the first two years of my high school to really just learn the language. And then, like I said, gain enough proficiency to be able to be placed in college prep classes. And then it took me two years, which meant took classes before school, after school, attended community college classes during the summer. And any opportunity that I could to, like, I took to be able to gain those, uh, or be able to meet the A through G requirements that allowed me then my senior year apply to a four-year university. And not just apply, but actually be accepted. So I gained acceptance to a few universities actually. I think, I don' ; t remember receiving any letter denying my acceptance. Then it became a matter of where I was gonna go. And I chose Cal State San Marcos. Sheehan: So that was quite the journey then to come from Mexico and, like you said, to only have basically two years of that kind of more advanced high school because the school didn' ; t have a bilingual program. So they placed you at a lower level. Do you think the-- Serrano: I mean, we did have a bilingual program, but the bilingual program was, we didn' ; t have all the levels of math, all the levels of science proficiency in bilingual, right. Like, they just had like the beginner. So for those of us who had had the opportunity to actually have, uh, acquire some, you know, skills in our home countries or the countries we were coming from, and we were placed in the beginner just because they, it was not that many of us for them to create a full class. Plus, I' ; m pretty sure the school didn' ; t have the resources to do that. Sheehan: Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is, do you think that' ; s endemic in American schools? They don' ; t have the resources to teach children of immigrants. Serrano: Definitely. I mean, even though I' ; m not technically an immigrant, right. Because of my experience of coming from a different educational system and really living in, in outside of the United States and then coming in and learning the language, I did experience a little bit of what some folks experience when they transitioned into United States at a young age. So all of my classmates in high school and all my friends--really because our classmates become our friends at that age, especially as you' ; re new in a new city--all of my classmates and friends for the most part were immigrants. Folks who were born outside of the United States. And we were all coming from very different backgrounds. Given the type of industry that prevails in Oxnard, a lot of them were coming from small village in Mexico and/or Central America in which their families were farmers. So when they came to United States, that' ; s what they were gonna do. They were gonna be farm workers. So definitely, a lot of my classmates had never attended a formal school ever in their lives. Some of them were struggling to learn Spanish actually because their first language was an indigenous language. And some of them, you know, were still struggling with the education. So for them, definitely, they needed that kind of low math and low science classes because they didn' ; t have the basic skills to be able to learn more advanced math. But for some of us--and it was, we were the minority, I guess, in that group that had had those opportunities outside of the United States--we were still placed in the same level of math and science, just because our English was just not at the same level as a regular high school student. So there is a lot of diversity, I will say among immigrant youth. And a lot of times we don' ; t get to see that because we are focused only on those who have the biggest needs, I guess. Sheehan: So in your opinion, what would be the way that schools could go about helping that education process? Is there a way that someone who has more advanced skills like yourself in math would be able to apply those skills successfully in a high school setting? Serrano: Well, I think for that, it would require for us to really invest in our English learner programs. We know that, unfortunately, our English learner programs tend to be underfunded. Right. They just don' ; t have the resources to really address the need. The need is big. We still have a lot of kids who are U.S. citizens who were born and attend, you know, all the K through 12 in the United States, but that never really reclassify, never really gained that proficiency in English in part, because they don' ; t, um, you know, when they get home, they primarily speak Spanish. And they attend schools who don' ; t have the resources to provide that more one on one that like individual support that a lot of students require. So I really think to address that question, like really the problem is that our schools are underserved. We don' ; t have enough resources. We don' ; t have enough teachers. We don' ; t pay our teachers enough. Like we don' ; t have enough specialized teachers. I still remember, and that was not my experience. But in my last year of high school, the amount of ESL students that we had in my high school was so big that we didn' ; t have enough ESL teachers. So we ended up opening one class with a teacher who had, I think studied two years of Spanish < ; laugh> ; or something like that. So this is somebody that is not proficient in Spanish but ended up having to take an ESL class just because we didn' ; t have enough teachers. And I can imagine, right. That was probably also a tough call for our administrators. But unfortunately, when we don' ; t have, we don' ; t invest in bilingual teachers, when we don' ; t invest in our bilingual programs, that is the result, right. We have students who are not being challenged in the classroom, like I felt I wasn' ; t. But also, students who actually need a lot of support just to catch up with their classmates and are not receiving that, and therefore are staying behind. So we are really underserving our students by doing that, right. Our classroom should be an environment where you should be able to learn basic skills, but also to be pushed and challenged. And we are, at least in my experience in high school, at an ESL program, that was not the case. Sheehan: And do you remember the percentage of kids who graduated from your graduating class? Serrano: < ; laugh> ; No. I don' ; t remember. That was a long time ago. Sheehan: Okay. Yeah. < ; laugh> ; So moving on then from high school going into college, you said you went to Cal State San Marcos, is that correct? Serrano: Yes. Yes, I decided that when I was looking at all the options, I guess I had, um, really, I didn' ; t have that many options. I was happy and, you know, excited when I got all those accepting letters as a senior, especially, you know, I had you share, I had a tough journey. The reality was that my parents were still farm workers. The reality was my family was still struggling and I was going to get a lot of emotional support, but not financial support. So I was looking for a college that will help me financially. That will feel right for me. I was also looking for that, like home feel to it. And I also knew that I performed better in smaller classrooms. So for me, Cal State San Marcos definitely met all those things I was looking for. Also, I had, initially my sister originally, my older sister started at Cal State San Marcos. So when I chose that school, I also had the hope that we were both gonna be attending together. That ended up not happening. She ended up, unfortunately like many students, dropping out before I was able to join her. But the campus is still within the border region. It' ; s still only a few minutes away from Tijuana and Chula Vista where I actually have a lot of family members. But at the same time, it was not close enough for me to feel like I was gonna go with my family. I still felt, you know, as a teenager, I was also looking to get away from family. So Cal State San Marcos provided that perfect in between. At least for me. And then also once again, being a smaller campus, a campus that had small class sizes. Also, we have a college assistant migrant program who once again, as a daughter of farm workers, provided a lot of support, especially my first year. So all of those were like incentives for me to pick Cal State San Marcos and decide to move back in 2008. Sheehan: Very interesting. So what did you do for financial support then? Was it just kind of grants and student loans and things like that? Serrano: Yep. < ; laugh> ; So it was grants. It was, um, like I mentioned through camp, I was able to access some scholarships. And then I was able to, or ended up having to, sign up for student loans. Yeah. Sheehan: Mm-hmm, < ; affirmative> ; very much the American experience right now. < ; laugh> ; So you' ; re one of three sisters. You had said your older sister had dropped out of college. Did your younger sister attend Cal State San Marcos or any other college? Serrano: So actually, yes, my older sister that dropping from Cal State San Marcos, just to later on, actually, she was part of the first class of Mira Costa students who graduated with a bachelor' ; s. She has a Bachelor' ; s of Science from Mira Costa College. And that was recent. And my younger sister, she is currently a student at UC Irvine. Sheehan: Wow. So you were the middle daughter and ended up with the first degree. Was that the first degree in your family? Serrano: Yes. Yes, that was the first degree in my family. And yes, I know. I ended up being the middle child as an example, I guess. < ; laugh> ; . Sheehan: And what was your degree in? Serrano: Mine? Sheehan: Yes. Serrano: I ended up doing my bachelor' ; s in human development with my emphasis in health services. Sheehan: And then that led into your current position, or how did you end up where you are now? Serrano: I ended up doing a double major, sorry. I should have--I did a double major in Human Development and Spanish. So I wanted to make sure that I didn' ; t lose my proficiency in the language, but also, I had always really liked literature and, you know, Spanish is my first language, so I felt a lot more comfortable in that language. So I ended up studying both. When I first started at Cal State San Marcos, I knew I had to find my home. ' ; Cause my family was far, far away. Especially because when my parents decided to move the family and overstay their visas, they became undocumented. Right. So even though if they had, you know like their whole lives, they had been moving back and forward and, like I shared, my great grandparents, my grandparents, they were all now, actually at the time I think they were already U.S. citizens. By the time we moved. If not, they were very close to becoming U.S. citizens. My parents only had visas. So when they moved and overstayed, they became undocumented. So something that wasn' ; t thinking of when I picked the college is that because we are in the border now, there was an imaginary line dividing me and my parents. The way that our immigration system defines the border is a hundred miles from the port of entry. So for those of us who live in San Diego County, especially those of us who live in North County, we' ; re very familiar with the Border Patrol checkpoints set on the 15 freeway and on the 5, which, you know, are around the areas of Temecula and San Clemente. So my parents, when I first started college, my freshman year, they were still undocumented. So they couldn' ; t risk, and I myself couldn' ; t ask them to risk, their ability to be with my younger sister who at the time was I think, a first grader, by crossing that checkpoint. Because every time an undocumented immigrant drives through that checkpoint, there' ; s a possibility of being arrested and deported. So I, I was not--I knew about the checkpoint, but I didn' ; t understand all the complications that come with it until I had already submitted everything for Cal State San Marcos. I had my orientation day and then I had to have that tough conversation that my parents couldn' ; t drop me off for orientation. They did end up dropping me off for my first day at the dorms. But after that, I was basically on my own. If I wanted to see my parents, I would have to either drive or take the train and me being me, the U.S. citizen crossing that checkpoint versus my parents who were undocumented. So, I forgot what I was saying. < ; laugh> ; Sheehan: < ; laugh> ; That' ; s all right. Serrano: [unclear]. Sheehan: I have a, well, that leads me to my next question, actually. Coming from a multi-status family, did that impact your choice of career? Serrano: It did. It did. I think, indirectly, but it did. I went to high school once again, it kind of all goes back to high school years, right. ' ; Cause for most of us, those are our formative years, right. The years where, even though we' ; re making decisions unconsciously, that ends up impacting what we do. So when I was in high school, this was in 2006. I remember very vividly that Congress was having a conversation around undocumented immigrants and around, and how some politicians at the time were really pushing to criminalize undocumented immigrants. Currently being undocumented in the United States is a civil offense. It' ; s not a criminal offense, but at the time there were a lot of pushing, a lot of conversations around criminalizing that, really making it a felony to be undocumented and or helping undocumented folks. So as a teenager that was literally struggling to learn English struggling, like kind of in a way I feel identified with the immigrant experience. I knew my parents were undocumented. Most of my friends were immigrants and a lot of them were undocumented. I felt these folks were speaking directly to my community, right. Directly to my family. Directly about my friends. And I knew that it wasn' ; t true. Everything that they were saying was not true. That was not reflective of my experience and what I was seeing every day. So, 2006, there was a mass movement around immigrant rights. A push for an immigration reform and really to change that dialogue about how we were talking about undocumented immigrants. And as a high school student, I just jumped on board. I joined the protests. I ended up walking out of my high school. Like a lot of folks did back in 2006, we saw high school walkouts all throughout the state of California. I joined that movement, not knowing anything. I didn' ; t know what the real implications of the conversations were. I didn' ; t know how Congress works. I didn' ; t know how we make laws. I just knew that what I was hearing and what I was watching on TV, like through the news was not right. So fast forward to when I started as a student at Cal State San Marcos. I had already had my first encounter with MEChA, which stands for Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan. And as a high school student, a lot of high schools do have MEChA. My high school didn' ; t. But when we started, you know, getting involved in organizing walkouts and protests, it was college students at the nearest community college who were involved with MEChA, who came out to make sure that police was not harassing us. To come out, to tell us like, Okay, this is what you do to stay safe during a protest. They were not instituting the protest ' ; cause we were the ones really wanting to do everything, right. But they were there to make sure we were doing it in a safe way. So when I kind of started at Cal State San Marcos, find out we had a MEChA chapter, I knew since like orientation, I' ; m joining this organization ' ; cause they' ; re doing what I wanna be doing. So, it is actually through that, that I met one of my mentors, Arcela Nuñez[-Alvarez] who at the time was the director of the National Latino Research Center and the advisor for MEChA, um, that I actually started getting more involved here locally in North County. So a lot my years as a student at Cal State San Marcos, I really spent getting to know North County and the local immigrant rights movement through MEChA. And also, you know, we also got into some trouble at Cal State San Marcos as we were the biggest organization, student organization that represent Latino and Latinx students. And you know, at the time we were look[ing at a] tuition increase. We still--and until this day--Cal State San Marcos still doesn' ; t have a Chicano Studies department. But back then we had even less Chicano professors. So there was a lot of things that I was seeing in my daily life that it just didn' ; t feel right. Didn' ; t feel that that was something, or an environment in which folks like myself could thrive. And my goal was always to try to, you know, create a world where I wanna live in and create a world where I want other generations--future generations--to live in. So I got involved and I was, you know, I struggled a little bit because I was taking classes and then I was doing all this community work and I never saw the bridge. Right. I never saw like the connection for me. So like, no, this is what I do because that' ; s just what feels right to me. And I' ; m going to class because one day I' ; m gonna have a career, but I still didn' ; t know what, < ; laugh> ; like most college students. So as my college year start--you know, I started approaching the end of my college career, I started seeing that overlap. Right. And I found that overlap initially, actually ended up getting hired as a student assistant. And then later on, I came right after graduation, came in as staff at the National Latino Research Center and in there--which is a department at Cal State San Marcos--I learned a lot about research. But also, I learned how research can be used to really bring attention to issues like that I was seeing. So that' ; s kind of where I started seeing like, Okay, there' ; s an overlap. I can actually do something with this education that I' ; m getting to improve and continue to also use the skills that I learned as an organizer versus an activist. As an organizer in the community. And I can merge both. And I can merge them in a way in which I create the opportunities that I wanna see. Right. And I kind of was able to after graduation and after like a few years of experience working at the NLRC and now, you know, as Universidad Popular, that' ; s what I' ; m doing. I' ; m still continuing to create the spaces and the opportunities that I really wish I had when I was in that position in my life. Right. So for young folks, but also for like our, um, just our immigrant communities in general. Especially in North County, which, once I moved here, I fell in love with this region and also came to find out that this region is severely underserved. If I struggled in Oxnard--like this community is severely underserved. So, I decided that [I' ; d] dedicate my professional career to build resources here in North County. And it was all, you know, it was all as I was trying to merge my worlds into one. < ; laugh> ; Sheehan: < ; laugh> ; . And so what resources can people use in North County that you' ; ve helped develop? Serrano: Yeah. So, through Universidad Popular we have developed classes, community classes where folks can actually start learning about the history of Latinos in the United States. It' ; s all coming from a Chicano Studies lens. And for me like that, I also, it was in a Chicano Studies classes where I felt like empowered and I was able to feel that I could merge, right, like my knowledge and my experience with my education. So we definitely find that that' ; s the perfect platform for, uh, to start that. So, we also have classes that help folks learn the history and civics of the United States to then be able to become citizens. So a lot of folks don' ; t know, but undocumented folks, sorry, immigrants. Immigrants who are applying to become U.S. citizens have to pass a history and civics test before they' ; re able to do that. So we help them study. We help them connect with attorneys or immigration attorneys that are able to, you know, assist them in the process of filling out their application. I myself sometimes serve as the interpreter. So I actually go with folks who are eligible to take their interviews in Spanish. I sit through there and I help them translate. And then, you know, we help them get through the finish line of becoming U.S. citizens. And after that, I help them register to vote. And then we also have some voter education classes and just activities in general, every time there' ; s an election, in which we help first, new citizens register to vote, learning how to vote. Because voting is not as easy as it seems for those of us who are fluent in English and who are, um, grew up around our electoral system. And also, just learning about the candidates and, you know, the information or where to find information about the candidates. So you can make the right decisions for yourself and for your families. I also have helped develop an alert system specifically here in North County and that is part of what I' ; ve been doing now for many, many years on a volunteer basis. We developed an alert system that lets folks know when there is the presence of a checkpoint, a police--usually they' ; re called DUI checkpoints--but the reality, we know that in the immigrant community, the perception is definitely that they are not there to catch folks who are driving under the influence, but really to catch folks who are driving without a license. Which is a lot of undocumented folks. And we haven' ; t seen this in the last few years. But over 10 years ago, when this system started, we used to see a lot of collaboration with Border Patrol. So, I personally witnessed DUI checkpoints in which Border Patrol was standing right next to the officer or a block away. Right. So if you were somebody that was driving without a license and you look a certain way, you were Spanish speaker, you were for the most part presumed to be undocumented, and Border Patrol will be there to ask for your immigration status. And we also, unfortunately, documented some stories of folks that ended up being put in deportation procedures through this process. So we helped create an alert system in which when there' ; s a DUI checkpoint in our community, when there' ; s a Border Patrol checkpoint and, or an immigration raid, you know, in North County. And by North County, we really mean all the communities that touch the 78 and 76 corridors. So the cities of Oceanside and Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, and all of the unincorporated areas of Valley Center, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Pala, Fallbrook. Whenever there is one of those instances, we' ; re able to send out a text message alert that goes to over 8,000 unique contacts. Plus, we' ; re able to also to post information on our social media. All combined, we are able to reach anything between 50,000 to 100,000 community members, primarily Spanish speakers who live in North County. And a lot of them we know are immigrants. Sheehan: That' ; s incredible. So there' ; s this whole support system for immigrants in North County that you' ; ve created. Is that something that you' ; ve done in, what was the timeframe on that? Serrano: So when I first kind of joined a group, it was kind of baby. It was barely community members. A lot of them college students, a lot of them Cal State San Marcos students who were going to these checkpoints to start documenting what was happening. Right. And they will just, because they were already there, they will just start texting their family and friends who will then forward that text message to their families and friends. So it was like a tree. And this started back in 2009. I joined the group in 2010, so months after it was first created. And we knew that we needed to reach people faster and also in a more effective way. So, I was able to, as a student, just volunteer my time. And, you know, also as a young person that grew up with technology, trying to figure out how do we use technology to do that, to do exactly that. So at the time--and this is 2009--Facebook had only been around for a few years, and it was barely kind of getting momentum. So we started using Facebook as an organizing tool. We were probably one of the first groups that started using Facebook. You know, later we also used Instagram as an organizing platform to do that. And then also we knew that a lot of community members that we were targeting, like the folks that needed to get this information, were not gonna be able to jump on a Facebook page because at the time they probably didn' ; t have the technology or didn' ; t know how to use it. So we knew that we needed to do something with direct text message. We didn' ; t have resources. This is all volunteer work. We didn' ; t have grants. We didn' ; t have the ability to get donations really. Like, I mean, we were getting donations, but we' ; re not a 501c3, right. There' ; s no real exchange that could happen. So somebody literally just said, " ; I have an old Blackberry that you can have if you want it" ; . And then somebody was kind enough to say, " ; And I can add a new line to my family plan" ; . And then the rest of us just had to say, well, we will pitch in to pay the monthly payment. So we all started literally with an really old Blackberry, um, < ; laugh> ; that we will type the text message and send out and start kind of creating a list. Once we hit the 500 numbers, like, you know, 500 unique phone numbers that we were now texting every weekend, sometimes multiple times in the weekend, it became really hard because a Blackberry is not designed < ; laugh> ; to send more than 500 text message at the same time. It will take us three hours. Literally, one of us will be in the phone for three hours sending text message. And then we decided, okay, that' ; s three hours is ridiculous. We can' ; t be volunteering more than that. So we kind of stop adding new numbers, but the demand, right. Amount of people that every time we send a text message, they will text back, " ; Hey, can you add my cousin? Hey, can you add my neighbor?" ; Or we will be out -- because we were putting this out of pocket and I was a student, a first-generation college student that was signing up for, or getting student loans just to pay rent. I couldn' ; t afford really an extra bill. And, you know, that was a reality for most of the folks that were doing this. Not all of us were college students, but, you know, we' ; re all struggling. We started asking our Facebook friends on our page, " ; Hey, would you all be willing to pitch in to pay the bill?" ; Right. And yes, that response from the community immediately was yes. " ; Where can I meet you to get you five bucks, ten bucks, twenty?" ; So then we started attending community events to collect a donation, but of course, as we are at the community events, people are like, " ; Oh, you' ; re with Alianza Comunitaria. Can I be added to your list?" ; And we had to say, no, we couldn' ; t. So we figured out that we needed an online system, and we did everything car washes, literally hanging out at the swap meet, just collecting donations, asking folks who were receiving our text message, who will send them a text, right. Like, " ; Hey, can you help us? Anything will help." ; And we were able to in 2013 transition to an online system that we have continued to have now for a few years. It continued to be all community funded. Now, as you know, some of us found more stability. We were paid out of pocket to continue this system. And we were able to bring in more and more numbers. So our numbers continue to grow. Every time I look at our list, it' ; s bigger. The last time I looked, it was a little over 8,000, but I don' ; t really know our exact number because people just sign up automatically on it. And our Facebook and Instagram, like I said, we get followers every weekend. Every time there is an alert that needs to go out, we get them and here and there, we will hear from community members who tell us, " ; I' ; ve been following for 10 years" ; . And the amount of trust they have on this network is to the point where we still, we get a lot of messages primarily through our social media, where folks now are sharing with us a lot of very personal information with the hope that we are gonna be able to connect them with resources. Right. So many times, I am the one connecting folks with organizations who are able to provide legal services and/or directing them in the right way to where they can find information about medical or health services. There' ; s a lot of questions around schools for their kids. So it becomes--even though we try not to promote it, ' ; cause it' ; s still volunteer run, so it' ; s capacity. It' ; s an issue. We are part of the North County community, specifically the immigrant community. So they look at us for all sorts of information. So right now, during COVID we had folks who were looking at us for resources. What can we do to help feed our families or to access the vaccine? Like a lot of folks are, um, we had questions around, Will this affect my immigration status? Or I' ; m undocumented. Can I access these resources? So we continue to do that work. And of course, our notification system continues to be up and running and just growing, even though we are trying not to grow it as much. Sheehan: That' ; s really, really incredible. You said you' ; ve seen these DUI checkpoints where really Border Patrol is kind of hanging out there trying to catch undocumented persons. Have you experienced any other issues that immigrants face in, you know, the border region? Serrano: Yeah. I mean and, you know, just to clarify, that was many years back. Like close to 10 years back. And the reason I make that clarification is because things have changed. Policies and laws really for the state of California has changed that make that illegal to an extent < ; laugh> ; . So, I just wanna clarify that because I don' ; t want the departments coming after me, like, you' ; re saying we' ; re violating the law. That' ; s not true. Yes. But you did at one point. < ; laugh> ; Yes. I mean, there is a lot of challenges. Like I said, at this point I' ; ve been working with the immigrant community in North County for over 10 years. And there are challenges at all levels, from parents trying to navigate the schools. To folks not being able to access healthcare. We know that, unfortunately, undocumented folks, even if they qualify because of income and you know, the other requirements for medical, they' ; re not able to access it just because of their immigration status. So I had to, even with my own family, have to navigate the system, or try to navigate the system because there' ; s really no navigation when you' ; re being denied services, because you don' ; t have health insurance. And you' ; re not able to access health insurance because you cannot afford private. And the ones that are subsidized by the government, you don' ; t qualify because of your immigration status. So for me personally, that has been an important fight to ensure that our safety net is open, right. For the state of California our safety net is open for all of us, regardless of immigration status. We have been able to have some win. So as my work out in the community through Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular, I became an advocate for immigrant rights. So right now, we are in April 6th, 2022. And we' ; re very excited because starting May 1st, so in a few couple of weeks, undocumented immigrants 50 years and older will be able to access full scope Medi-Cal if they qualify based on income regardless of their immigration status. So that is a huge win that took us many years. Literally, I had trips to these, sorry, to Sacramento. I have taken the 12-hour bus--and I know how long it takes--12-hour bus to Sacramento with undocumented folks. With folks who are cancer survivors. With folks who are dealing with diabetes and all kinds of chronic disease from North County. Here from our local community who have been living here 20, 30 years. Who have U.S. citizen kids, right. Who are doing everything on their end to be good members of our community. Who are blocked from receiving health services because of their immigration status. So I had the privilege of getting to know them, learning their story, helping them prepare and really become advocates for their own, uh, for themselves and their families. And now, you know, a few years later we are seeing some results from that advocacy. As we are changing the laws and really changing the way undocumented immigrants are perceived in our community. Of course, that has been statewide efforts, right. Like we are part of some statewide coalitions that have been able to bring us those results. But I can tell you that North County, San Diego has been part of all those conversations throughout the years in part, because of the work that me and other folks have been doing. Sheehan: And so what are some of the methods that you use to advocate? I know you, before you had mentioned when you were in high school and college, you had organized and been a part of protests. Is that the major way that you help advocate or -- Serrano: No, that' ; s probably the most visible one for the outside world. And definitely we continue to use public protests as a way of getting attention to the issues. But there' ; s many other ways. We ensure that my role has become being the teacher, right. Like the person that is helping community members learn how to tell their stories, because even though we know the experiences exist in the community, right. Like, I witness them sometimes, you know, like folks call me, like, I can' ; t, I need a test or even in my own family, right. My mother-in-law was in a situation a long time ago where she wasn' ; t feeling right, and she needed to get tested. And we couldn' ; t get an appointment. I, myself, I couldn' ; t sign her up anywhere because she didn' ; t have health insurance because she was undocumented. So I' ; m seeing this, I' ; m living through it, but I know that it' ; s hard for our community members to tell that story in a way that other folks are able to understand it and follow along. So I literally had taken the time to first teach folks how the laws are changed, right. Then we also take the time to see which laws need to be changed. Partner with those who have a lot more experience than myself in policy making and, you know, try to come together to create bills that we think might be able to solve the problem. And then have community members learn how to do the advocacy in the legislative process. Which means teaching them how to tell their own personal stories, accompany them to provide that testimony. What there is in a private meeting with legislators at their offices or public hearings. Like anything from public meetings, sorry, public hearings in Sacramento with our state legislators to city councils, right. A lot of times there is things city councils can be doing to improve the lives of folks, but most of us don' ; t know about it or don' ; t know how to communicate with them. I also have helped folks set up meetings or help folks set up meetings. And, at times, especially when some of these meetings are public, media has an interest. So lately that has been one of the skills I' ; ve been developing on how do we better work with media to ensure that the stories of our community members are out there and folks who might not be in our communities are aware of. Because deep in my heart, I know that people, there' ; s a lot of people that cares who just don' ; t know, they just don' ; t know what' ; s happening. So part of the advocacy is really to ensure that everybody knows what' ; s happening and how things can be fixed in a way that it will not take away from U.S. citizens. Because that' ; s not the point. The point is not to take anything away from a U.S. citizen. The point is to ensure that all of us who contribute to our community get access to the same resources. And that is the part of the work that I have been doing in terms of advocacy. And sometimes we don' ; t achieve that in a public protest, but sometimes you do, < ; laugh> ; right. So use the different tools in our toolkit for advocates. Sheehan: And so that, is it a bill or a law that' ; s going into effect in May? That' ; s a big win for the immigrant rights group. Is there any other progress that kind of stands out to you in the past 20 years? Serrano: Definitely. For me, the one that I was also very passionate and really sparked my interest in learning how advocacy works at the state level is the passage of SB 54 or the California Values Act back in 2000 and 2017. < ; laugh> ; Yes, it went into effect in January of 2018. So the SB 54, the California Values Act is also known at the national level as the California Sanctuary Law, which really prohibits law enforcement from collaborating with immigration enforcement. That' ; s the law that I was hinting earlier < ; laugh> ; about me making sure that I clarify that those incidents happened before 2018. Because in the state of California--and we were the first state in the nation--and actually now a few years later, some states have been following our lead in ensuring that law enforcement, your local police department are not in the business of deporting community members. When we first started talking about--going back to my experience here in North County, right. I was involved in the community. I knew about this DUI checkpoints. They were becoming a ridiculous thing where we documented checkpoints on a Tuesday at 10:00 AM in front of a high school in Escondido. What drunk driver is driving at 10:00 AM in front of a high school on a Tuesday? And I mean, I know there might be folks driving under the influence at the time, but they' ; re definitely folks who need help. Because we were seeing the DUI checkpoints and not outside of bars, right. They' ; re not there--once again, it was obvious to us that they were not targeting drunk drivers. They were targeting undocumented immigrants. And they were targeting because they were able to impound the car because at the time undocumented immigrants couldn' ; t get a license. And once again, we were seeing immigration enforcement presence. So we were able to first tackle the license. So the state of California became the first, uh, one of the first states to give undocumented driver' ; s licenses. But for us here in North County, we knew that the problem was really the collaboration, the close collaboration between immigration enforcement and law enforcement. A lot of folks don' ; t know this, but the Escondido Police Department was one of the first ones to launch a pilot where ICE agents, or immigration enforcement agents, were literally riding along with the police department. They had an office within our department headquarters. They were one in the same, basically. That later translated in laws in the states of Arizona and other places. So we knew that North County had something to do with the birth of that collaboration. So we needed to be part of the disentanglement of that collaboration. We worked with legislators for many years, and finally in 2018 in the state of California, now it' ; s illegal for police departments to fully collaborate with immigration enforcement. Unfortunately, there' ; s still some exceptions to the law, so there continues to be collaboration. We continue to fight every single one of the forms of collaboration. But for the most part, the state of California is able to say that our law enforcement doesn' ; t collaborate with immigration enforcement. And that has been part of the result of the advocacy that happened statewide. But I can say that Escondido specifically was constantly brought up in those conversations because we were one of the first departments to start that collaboration. So then we were definitely one of the first to stop after the state law was passed. Sheehan: And so do other border states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, do they have similar laws to what California is or do they even consider having those laws? Serrano: I think in the state of Arizona and Texas actually had been having the opposite fight. The state of Arizona was one of the first, I think it was the first to launch it statewide, to not just allow the collaboration, but it was almost like demand law enforcement to collaborate with immigration enforcement and demand law enforcement to become one in the same with immigration. So, yes, Arizona, sorry, California is right now the only one that has that state law, at least for the bordering states. I think the other one that will be kind of like a good example of the work on the opposite will be New York. And definitely some of the smaller states are. Their laws are not as strong as ours, but they are definitely on the way there to hopefully disentangle that. Sheehan: So that kind of brings me to the end of my questions here. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything you' ; d like to share? Serrano: Um, let me think. < ; laugh> ; I know I talked to you about many, many different things, but I think for me, something that resonates a lot the work that we' ; ve been doing is recently the whole San Diego County went through the redistricting process. For those who don' ; t know, redistricting happens every 10 years after a census count. Now, when I arrived to this region, it was right before the last census in 2010. I arrived to North County in 2008. And I knew that there was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Spanish speakers, right. I felt right at home. But the 2010 census was severely undercounted Latinos. Now in 2020 census, I was able join the efforts to ensure that folks were counted. And even though we continue to see a severe undercount for our communities, now as we have the count and we get to redistrict our community, we get to say that the North County district, which right now will be District 5 for the County Board of Supervisors, is at least 45% Latino. So that to me just goes to show the amount of growth that our Latino community, immigrant communities, have had in North County. And, it was recent, but we are starting to see a trend on the change of policy makers. So we are seeing a lot of Latinos, a lot of immigrants and/or the children of immigrants being elected to school boards, being elected to city councils. You know, crossing fingers. So we will see them at the Board of Supervisors, and we will see them at the state and federal level representing North County. And I think for me, as somebody that has done a lot of work in this region in the last 10 years, it just goes to show the power our community has when we organize ourselves and we imagine what can be done. It wasn' ; t there before. Because I remember 2008 when I arrived, this was a very conservative community, and it continues to be conservative, but it was, uh, I remember it was at Cal State San Marcos, the first time a peer, somebody my age called me beaner and told me to go back to Mexico. So that is the reality for a lot of families in North County. The racism that was just open and accepted, right. The practice by our policy makers and even by our neighbors of denigrating you because you' ; re Mexican. Telling you to speak English because this is the United States or telling us to go back to Mexico. Even for folks who are not even originally from Mexico, right. Our Central American community members were being told to go back to Mexico. Fast forward to 10 years now, even though I recognize that we continue to be a very conservative community, North County is changing. And it' ; s changing because the number of Latinos is increasing, and we are now creating a Latino leadership in a region. And I don' ; t know if our administrators at Cal State San Marcos know, but in part is because of the presence of Cal State San Marcos. Because nowadays as an alum, as a Latina, as a Spanish speaker, I run into so many folks who have attended San Marcos, who are from this community and who are creating change. And we expect that that will continue to create an impact in our region. Sheehan: And so in the 2010 census, there were more immigrants here than the census showed. And then in 2020, that number had grown. What do you think keeps people from wanting to participate in that census? Is it a fear of deportation? Serrano: Yeah, definitely. When you' ; re undocumented you want nothing to do with the government. Government is your enemy. And in part that has been because of our doing, as the United States. We have used every-- you know, it' ; s almost like when we talk about immigration, it comes in waves, right. And every time that there is this like conservative tough on immigrant approach, we create fear, and we create cases in which folks get deported from our communities. Obama, the Obama administration has the record on deportations in all of the country. So when a Democrat president is deporting your family, and now you have another new administration, even if it' ; s Democrat, Republican. As an immigrant, you fear them. They' ; re your enemy. Regardless of who they are like, they' ; re your enemy because they are the ones responsible for separating your family and/or separating a family that you know. So when you are undocumented, the government is your enemy and any interaction you avoid. And that' ; s what we saw with the census, right. Even though the census should have absolutely nothing to do with immigration enforcement, folks are afraid of it because they don' ; t know how it could be used against them. Also, unfortunately in 2020, the president that we had at the time, President Trump decided to make it a political move and decided and pushed really hard to include immigration questions on the census, which include a citizenship question. He really fought really hard to include those questions. Even though a court decided not to side with him, and they ended up siding with creating a census that will be more inviting for folks to participate versus creating questions that will prevent folks from feeling as safe participating. And those questions didn' ; t make it to the questionnaire. The president coming on TV already saying that he wanted to use that as part of his immigration enforcement, nobody could take that away from us. So it was fresh on people' ; s memories and I myself, right. Like me and my team, we were out there doing outreach for the census, and we will always get questions. " ; And how is Trump gonna use this against me?" ; , right. " ; How is this gonna be part of the deportation process?" ; And I can tell them a hundred times that that was not the case, but once again, they had already seen the president be on TV saying that it would be used against them. So those were some of the challenges that we saw with the census. Sheehan: And so that 45% Latino/Latina is probably on the very low side. Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: So that' ; s an incredible growth in North County. Serrano: Yes. Yes, cities like Escondido are now majority Latino with 52%. Cities like Vista and San Marcos are also very close to the 50% mark. Once again, if we were to account for the under count, it' ; s probably safe to say that they' ; re about half Latino population cities. Sheehan: < ; laugh> ; . That is an incredible rate. Serrano: Yeah, it is. Sheehan: All right. And did you have anything else that you would like to share? Serrano: No, I think that' ; s all for me. Sheehan: All right. Well, thank you very much for your time today. Serrano: Yeah, no. Thank you for having me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Serrano, Lilian. Interview April 6, 2022
Description
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Lilian Serrano is a California State San Marcos alum. She graduated with a degree in Human Development. Lilian worked with the National Latino Research Center (NLRC) at Cal State San Marcos before moving on to work with Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular. In this interview, Lilian discusses family life and growing up in Tijuana and Oxnard, her experiences as a student activist at CSUSM, and her work as an advocate for immigrant rights in North County.
Identifier
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SC027-16
Subject
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California State University San Marcos
Community organization
Undocumented immigrants -- California -- San Diego County
Date
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2022-04-06
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video
Coverage
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Oxnard (Calif.)
San Diego County (Calif.)
Tijuana (Baja California, Mexico)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Lilian Serrano
Creator
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Lilian Serrano
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Robert Sheehan
Activists and activism
Community history
History Department internship
Immigrant experience
Latine experience
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Diania Caudell
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Linda Kallas
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5.4 Kallas, Linda. Interview December 22, 2022 SC027-051 00:39:59 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Arts education Basket making California State University San Marcos Death and rememberance Education -- Native Americans Illustration of books Luiseno Indians Pablo Tac Elementary School (Oceanside, Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) Valley Arts Festival (Oceanside, Calif.) Women artists Linda Kallas Diania Caudell KallasLinda_CaudellDiania_2022-12-22_access.mp4 1.0:|18(15)|33(5)|44(15)|58(8)|78(2)|94(7)|108(18)|122(13)|148(14)|161(11)|179(11)|193(6)|209(8)|222(8)|233(11)|256(15)|271(4)|291(3)|303(3)|316(18)|326(3)|338(8)|365(4)|394(4)|412(6)|422(6)|433(7)|460(4)|472(3)|483(6)|499(7)|509(9)|525(4)|536(6)|552(16)|562(8)|575(7)|588(11)|600(7)|618(7) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b51d19e031c6564af02b12943939dc32.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Hellos are exchanged and introductions are said. Diania Caudell ; North County Oral History Initiative ; Linda Kallas 0 47 Early childhood Kallas describes her early childhood in New Jersey, followed by her moving to California. Kallas discusses an automobile accident she was involved in while she was young, as well as brief family introductions to her siblings, stay-at-home mother, and father's alcoholism. California ; Newark, New Jersey ; Automobile accident ; Alcoholism ; Drummer ; Hughes Aircraft 0 158 Elementary education Kallas describes early childhood education where she moved around to seven different elementary schools. Kallas recalls her love of the library and her passion for learning as well as swimming. Kallas also recollects her father's artistic side, and discovering her own love of art through her father. Library ; Youth ; Elementary school ; The Secret Garden ; Darby Dolls ; Art 0 231 Childhood activities Kallas describes her youth in the things she was drawn to, such as swimming, drawing riding bikes. Swimming ; Pool ; Parade ; Bikes ; Draw ; Art ; Paint 0 302 Post high school Kallas describes her life right after high school, with her marriage to her high school sweethart, moving away from her home to Crestline. Kallas also discusses breaking up with future husband, discovering her independence, and then getting back together and starting a family.
 ; Marriage ; Graduation ; Snow ; Medical Assistant ; Family ; Sons ; Crestline, California 0 406 Undergraduate and postgraduate education Kallas decides to go back to school, where she received an Associates of Arts degree in Early Childhood Education. She went on to attain two BAs from California State San Marcos, and continued for her master's and became a teacher for almost eighteen years at Jefferson Middle School. AA ; Casa De Emparo ; Teaching ; Master's Degree ; Middle School ; Art ; Drama ; El Camino College ; CSU San Marcos ; National University 0 549 Volunteering at the Oceanside Public Library Kallas describes her time Volunteering at the Oceanside Public Library and the Mission Branch Library. Through these, Kallas helped create the Art for Older Adult program. Kallas has also illustrated a children's book, "Mel and the Blue Arrow," written by Cathleen Chilcote Wallace, a Luiseño storyteller, writer, and elementary school teacher, and a coloring book written by Diania Caudell. Volunteering ; Coloring ; Book ; Oceanside Public Library ; Literacy Center ; Art for older adult Program ; Mission Branch Library ; Mel and the Blue Arrow ; Luiseño Indians 0 670 Living in Oceanside circa 1989 Kallas describes what life was like in Oceanside 1989 ; its rural nature, ease of getting around, and agriculture. The construction of the 76 Freeway prompted a move to a senior community. Kallas discusses the places she likes to visit in Oceanside. Oceanside 1989 ; Farmland ; Pumpkins ; 76 Freeway 0 759 The death of Kallas's son, Jake, and coming to terms with his passing Kallas discusses son Jake who was killed in a car accident in 2010, and while trying to deal with that traumatic experience, found the San Luis Rey Bakery and the flute circle there, where Kallas and her husband joined a new community. Death ; Ivy Ranch ; Hohomi Park ; San Luis Rey Bakery ; Flute Circle ; Commemorative bench ; Luiseño Indians 0 970 Joanne Tawfilis and her murals Kallas talks about muralist Joanne Tawfilis and her work, as well as the Muramid Museum and Arts Center, a UNESCO Peace Center. Muralist ; UNESCO Peace Center ; Joanne Tawfilis ; Uvalde massacre 0 1073 The Literacy Center Kallas describes her with the Oceanside Public Library's Literacy Center, helping developmentally disabled adults. Adult Education ; Literacy Center ; Art ; Language Artist ; Oceanside Public Library 0 1188 Retirement Kallas describes her passions after retirement, such as drawing and opening her own business, Floating Hearts Connections. She also talks about swimming, and meeting with friends. Also the conversation occurs between Linda and Diania of placing Linda's art in the Oceanside Art Walk. Drawing ; Swimming ; Business ; Floating Arts Collections 0 1409 Mentors Caudell asks Kallas about a mentor/role model in Kallas's life. Kallas speaks about her father and his passion for painting, and speaks about how her mother pushed her to become a professor. Kallas also speaks about a couple professors Linda had in college Deborah Small, and Yareli Arizmendi. Kallas also mentions her recent friends that she has made, like Mel, Diania Caudell, and family members. Mentors ; Family ; Professors ; Role Models ; Deborah Small ; Yareli Arizmendi ; Diania Caudell ; Joanne Tawfilis 0 1620 Friendships, basket making, Valley Arts Festival Kallas speaks about her friendship with Mel Vernon (Luiseño), she mentions how close they are and the impact he has had on her life. Also mentions specific moments in their friendship through art. She also speaks to her passion for basket making and how she struggles but enjoys it. Kallas also speaks to the Valley Arts Festival, which just held its second festival. Friendship ; Bond ; Music ; Artword ; Art ; Basket Making ; Valley Arts Festival 0 1976 Proud accomplishments Kallas recalls winning teacher of the year, which she describes as one of her greatest accomplishments. She also mentions how her artwork is something that she is proud of. To this she talks about her long-term goals in in creating a website to market her curriculum, honoring the native California peoples, and writing books, including a new book in honor of her sister. Teacher of the Year ; Books ; Writing 0 2161 Regrets in life Kallas, asked about her regrets in life, brings up her mistakes and how the mistakes are what make you who you are. She also talks about how positive outlets impacted her life, such as yoga and meditation.
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 ; Regrets ; Mistakes ; Experiences ; Yoga ; Meditation 0 2310 Final thoughts/final message Kallas has a final message to the viewer of the video, as well as a final heartfelt note about her passed son. Goals ; Interests ; Love 0 moving image Oral history interview of Linda Kallas, December 22, 2022. Interview conducted by Diania L. Caudell. Linda Kallas is a retired middles school art and drama teacher who has collaborated with other local artists and authors on a variety of endeavors, including illustrating "Mel and the Blue Arrow" written by Mel Vernon (Luiseño). Kallas and Vernon also collaborated on a Luiseño/English coloring book and on an arts integrated curriculum taught at Pablo Tac Elementary School in Oceanside. Kallas is also on the committee for the Valley Arts Festival that celebrates Luiseño culture each November at Heritage Park, Oceanside. In her interview, Kallas talks to Diania Caudell about topics such as family, school, higher education, post-college life, and her various art and cultural projects. Diania Caudell: Good morning. My name is Diania Caudell and I’m, today I’m interviewing Linda Kallas. And today’s date is December 22, 2022. I’m with the North County Oral History Initiative. And it’s a class that we’re both been taking. And so, this is my 2nd interview. And wish us luck here! Are you ready, Linda? Here we go! Linda Kallas: I’m ready! DC: Okay. We’re going to be starting really simple and everything on that. That’s what they told us to keep it going so to make sure that you’re going to be really at ease. And you can smile when you want to, or whatever. So, let me know. LK: Yeah. DC: Uh, just when and where were you born? LK: I was born in Norton, New Jersey in 1953. And we lived there ‘til I was three and then we moved to California. After I was hit by a car —I have the dent to prove it right here— (rubs the pointer finger of her left hand on a portion of her forehead) I was in traction for several weeks in the hospital. And then my father had an opportunity to be in California for a new job. So, we moved out here. My left leg was three inches shorter. I remember the limp. (paddles her hands in front of her) I don’t remember the accident. I remember the hospital. But the limp—The leg grew and caught up with the other leg. So— DC: You want to tell me a little bit more about your family? LK: Um, my dad was a drummer by profession. And then after he had three of us, three children, and we moved to California, then my sister was born. And having four kids—and my mother was only in her early twenties—they got married really young. He finally got a real job, working as a plumber for a big—I think it was Hughes Aircraft. And then it was—we had a lot of turmoil because of his affliction. He was an alcoholic. And mom was a stay-at-home mom. And then I had two—she had two more boys. So, there were six kids in the family. And then they stayed married ‘til I think I was seventeen. And then they divorced. And that was chaos too. But anyway. DC: Anyway. Okay. Would you like to speak of what school was like for you as a child? LK: Well, we moved a lot. So, I went to like seven different elementary schools. We moved all the time. And I have fond memories of elementary. That’s kind of my safe place to go to, remembering good things. Like I had a teacher in third grade that read us The Secret Garden and that sparked my love of reading. She would read to us every afternoon. And I just loved hearing that story out loud, and then the library at the schools. The library was a safe zone for me. School was my safe zone. And I think that’s why I furthered my education because it was something that made me feel good. Learning, I loved learning. So, but, so there wasn’t really anything negative at school for me, other than high school and the cliques and the—you know how that is. (Diania chuckles) I stayed away from cliques. I was friends with everyone. I never fit in to one little group. I just always was friends with everyone. So— DC: On the activities when you were a child, I mean, what were you drawn to mostly, other than the reading and the library wizard? LK: Swimming, because we finally moved into a house with a pool. And I swam every day. That was my—I just loved— to this day, I love to swim. Mom always tried to get me to be like a cheerleader. She forced me to do—it was called “Darby Dolls” (makes air quotes with her hands). They were just pom-pom girls. (motions as if waving pom-poms) And I was in a parade and I remember just being miserable. Just, that just was not me. Because I was a tomboy. I wanted to do what the boys did, ride bikes. I wanted to have a paper route. Girls were not allowed then to have paper routes. So, swimming was really one of the things I loved to do. And I drew. I always loved to draw. My father also was a visual artist. And I remember watching him paint murals on the wall. And it just seemed magical to me that he could tace this blank space and all of a sudden there’s a bush there or a tree there. So, I think I learned my love of art through him. And that was part of his recovery when he would sober up. That’s what he would do. He would paint. DC: Now, one of the things though, from high school, you went on to college? What— LK: No. DC: No? LK: No. Not right out of high school. (shakes her head) DC: Okay. LK: No. I married my high school sweetheart. (Diania chuckles) Not married right away. We got together in ’71 —’70 was our first date. And then I graduated in ’71. And then we moved in together and we lived in Crestline, the mountains, for almost a year. But we were so dumb. (Diania laughs) We’re southern California brats, right? We didn’t know anything about living in the snow. So, I remember when we got our first electric bill and gas bill. And I went “You have to pay for that???” I thought it just came with the house. (Diania chuckles) So, um, that was quite the experience. And then we broke up for a year and I lived on my own, which was a really important turning point. I became a medical assistant, and I learned that I could take care of myself. I didn’t need to have another person to take care of me. And then we got back together. And then we decided to get married five years later and start a family. So, we have two sons. And that was it! Two boys. That was enough. (both laugh) DC: So, when did you decide to actually go back to school? LK: Not ‘til after the birth of my first son. You know, a lot of things came natural to me, coming from a big family and being the oldest girl. I had to tace care of the younger siblings most of the time. So, the baby stage, and nursing them, and all that stuff came really natural. But when they became—when Josh became a toddler, I was like “Now what do you do with them?” You know, I’d play with them, and I wanted to learn more about child development. That’s what sparked me to go back to school. So, I got an AA in Early Childhood Education. And then I changed fields and worked in that field for years, through my second son too. And then, even when we moved here from L.A., I was a director of a crisis day care center, Casa de Emparo. So, that AA degree served me really well. I was able to make a living doing it. But then, there’s only—you couldn’t go any further than being a director unless I wanted to become a teacher of it. So, then I started helping out at the elementary schools with my boys. And I really loved that. And so, that’s what sparked me further and to get a teaching credential and then wind up teaching for almost twenty years and got a master’s degree in education, so— And I taught Art and Drama at the middle school level. And that was really, really fun. DC: So, did you go to a local college when you were down here? LK: I went to—I got my AA in L.A. at El Camino College. And then when we moved here, I’d gotten my BA—well, I have two BAs at Cal State San Marcos. And the master’s degree—I call it my drive-through. I shouldn’t say this. My drive-through master’s is through National University. DC: So, you were alone out here, right from Cal State San Marcos? LK: Yep. Mm-hmm. I am. DC: Yeah. Good for you. Okay. So, you’re one of the originals that were here on the campus. LK: Yes. DC: It was pretty small. Was it small? LK: Before the campus, they were in the Jerome's Shopping Center. That’s where I took my first classes. And I got the teaching credential through Cal State San Marcos as well. It took me a really, really long time because I did everything part-time. I still worked, had the kids, and then did schooling part-time. So, I was 44 before I ever stepped foot in my own classroom. DC: And then after that, you did it for how many years? LK: Almost 18. I was at Jefferson Middle School for almost 18 years. DC: And Jefferson is located where? LK: It’s Oceanside Unified School District. It’s in the older part of Oceanside . DC: And so, up to today you’re still with education in some forms. LK: Yes. I started volunteering at the library, the Oceanside Public Library at the Literacy Center. And I really loved doing that. And then I went to the Mission branch library and got with Jenna Lease. And we created the Art for Older Adult program. And that’s at the senior center in El Corazon. And next year, we’ll be at both senior centers. I also write curriculum which, Mel (Vernon), my interviewee’s brother (Diania chuckles), he wrote a book called Mel and the Blue Arrow and asked me to illustrate it. So, I did. And so, we’ve been selling that. And then we approached Pablo Tac Elementary School. They recently changed the name to that. And he—I proposed this curriculum based on Mel and the Blue Arrow. And then, with Diania, I put together a coloring book. Diania helped me with the translation. It’s in Luiseño and English. And that’s been very successful. So, the students will get Mel and the Blue Arrow and the coloring book. So, we start teaching there in February. DC: Twenty? LK: 2023. DC: 2023. Okay, when—for me, you know, and in it, being able to interview you, I mean it’s an honor to be with you and learn from you. But some of the questions on here, you know, you’ve been in this region here in Southern California, not just L.A., but down here in San Diego County for how long? LK: Since 1989. DC: So, 1989. So, you’ve seen changes that have affected where you’re living at or in the area. Are any of them for you positive, that you’ve enjoyed watching the change? Or is it some things that are coming through that are—feel like the region is getting too crowded? Or how do you feel about it? LK: It’s so different than when we moved down. Part of the attraction to this, to Oceanside was we lived in a condominium that overlooked the Mission. But that was all fields and there was farmland. And you would walk across the street and buy fresh pumpkins. There was a farm stand. We could walk to the river and float on the river. We can’t do any of that anymore. There’s buildings, buildings. The 76, we moved here before the 76 was completed. And they kept saying “Oh, they’ll never build it. It’s been on the books for years.” Well, they built it. And it was literally—you could throw a stone from our condo. The noise level was unbearable. That’s what prompted us to move to, now we live in a senior community, which is very quiet (Diania laughs) which we really like. And the streets are really wide. (both laugh) The neighbors are really nice. And so, we kind of found our niche there. DC: So, do you have favorite places in the community there in Oceanside or around the surrounding areas? LK: Well, my husband’s a surfer so we love the beach. We go to the harbor quite often to visit the bench of our youngest son. Did you want me to talk about that? DC: It’s up to you. LK: Our youngest son, twelve years ago, was killed in a car accident. And so, we placed a bench at the harbor, right across from the boat launch, in his memory. So, we go there quite often and sit on the bench and talk to Jake. I love a lot of the area there. I love Heritage Park. I love Ivy Ranch Parks. We love parks. Hohomi Park. All the parks we frequent quite often. I enjoy going to the Mission just because of the grounds more than anything. I feel like I’m walking in history when I go there. Having learned what I’ve learned about the Luiseños, it’s a way of honoring the memory of the Luiseños there on that land. It’s sacred land but not sacred because the mission is there. It’s sacred land because there was a village there. And I’ve learned a lot and learned to appreciate history in that way. DC: Well, one of the things that I think I’ve heard you talk about that’s unique is—okay, talk about when you go to the bakery, San Luis Rey Bakery. What was happening there when you first was going through there. LK: Oh. The bakery. (Diania laughs) After Jake died in 2010, the anguish was unbelievable. I’ve never experienced anything like that before or since. And I’ve been through a lot being raised the way I was raised. But that was just—that was like a part of my soul was taken and my identity. All of a sudden, I was searching online all the time for things to get my head on, out of the place it was in, and all of a sudden, this announcement popped up of a flute circle at the San Luis Rey Bakery. And I went (opens her mouth wide as if in awe) “Jim, we’re going to go to that.” (Diania chuckles) So, we went. It was about, not maybe a year later, I think. And Mel is the one that started that. And so, we started going faithfully every month. And little by little just the healing of that sound and the camaraderie of the people, and the friend—They were so friendly. Everybody was just so warm and friendly, and we just kind of felt like we fit there. And so, we went until— It wasn’t Covid hit, really. But through that, I became friends with Mel. That’s where we started talking about the book. And I became friends with Diania and other people, Marge and Rob, and the people that frequent the flute circle. And it just was—had a really, really positive influence on me. DC: Did you try to play the flute? LK: I have a flute and I do have one little tune I keep working on. DC: You should have brought it! (Linda laughs) We could have played it. Now, I’m going to get you to play the flute. LK: It’s not for public consumption. (both laugh) I probably wouldn’t be able to hit one note. (motions with her hands as if pressing on a flute) DC: Yeah. With the, you know, living there in the valley and seeing the different changes. You know, like you just talked about, and the flute circle is not there anymore. It’s not that they don’t want it. It’s just that the capacity and the people have gone on to other things. LK: Mm-hmm. (nods her head) DC: There is a unique area right next door also that you’re involved in. You want to talk about that a little bit? LK: Are you talking about the Muramid Museum? DC: Yes. Yes. LK: With Joanne Tawfilis? Um, yes. Joanne is a muralist. And she does murals for any occasion. But she usually honors, I guess, tragic events. So, if some kind of tragedy happens, she paints a mural. And then, she sends it to that place. The most recent was Uvalde in Texas when that crazy person shot all those children. But I help her with murals. She does other unique things as well. But murals seem to be her niche in life. And she’s also in the UNESCO Peace Center there. And one of these days we’ll have a grand opening, when the landlord signs off on it (motions as if signing something with her right hand) And she does different events there, like her partner is a drummer, so they do African drumming every Saturday. And she’ll have events there to honor things that are going on, like she just did her birthday event. That was quite unique. DC: I know that other things that you work with the community, you know, not just like the Muramid, but I’d like you to stress your art, involvement really with the art. It’s unique, you know, I think. So, you’ve shared other things that I wasn’t aware of, you know. And I think that’s unique for us to learn. But can you specify what you do there at the centers there in Oceanside with the— LK: Are you thinking of Studio Ace? DC: No, no. The one down in Oceanside by the library? What’s that center? LK: Oh, the Literacy Center. DC: Yes! Yes. LK: The Literacy Center, I work with developmentally disabled adults. We started a Read-and-Draw Program. So, I did a whole year of character education with them. So, I would bring in posters where they were learning art literacy, visual literacy as well. But each poster had to do with a character trait, for example, like compassion, or caring, or integrity. So, they got a different character trait that they learned. And then we would involve poetry. So, we would write poems. They would do a little drawing lesson and learn to talk about art. And they learned a lot. And so, we’re going to continue that next year. We’re changing the name to, which I really like, “Language Artist.” So, they’ll get—and it’s going to be based on the LeBrons art. He’s an abstract expressionist artist. And so, we’ll look at his art and then I’ll teach them a lesson. And then, they’ll write something. So, it’s all about literacy. And then, also, I’ve been involved with Studio Ace since its inception. I’ve been Julia’s advisor, consultant, whatever you want to call it. I set up programs for her at Laurel Elementary. And before Pablo Tac was Pablo Tac, it was San Luis Rey Elementary. So, two schools I wrote curriculum for, trained two teachers and then they took over. But, after that, I just would kind of consult with her, and we created some classes together for the library. And then I transferred from working with her to working with the library directly. DC: So, there’s going to be some changes in your life soon. But how has your life’s path evolved and changed over the years? LK: I think since I’ve retired, when you teach art or drama for that matter, the last thing you want to do when you go home is more of it because you’re so involved with it all day, seven and a half hours a day. So, that part of my life has really increased as far as my drawing, and doing art on my own, just for myself. But now, I want to tace that venture a little further and I’m going to—well, I’ve opened my own business. And so, I’m still going to be offering all the same things I offer right now—workshops, art lessons, curriculum, whatever people need, healing arts. I have a whole repertoire of stuff that I can offer. But it will be under the title of “Floating Hearts Connections.” And even that has meaning to it. Floating hearts is actually an aquatic plant, and the leaves are shaped like a heart and then this little yellow flower comes up. And it has five petals. And that has meaning to me because I told you before, I love to swim. Well, when I’m done swimming, my favorite thing to do is to float. And so, with that in mind, I was looking for names and talked with my husband, talked with you, talked with Mel. And they said—all of you said I have to include something heart felt because that’s what I do. I collaborate with people and provide healing through the arts. And so, when I found that, I went “Oh my gosh! Heart, floating, arts” and then the connections that I make. And floating is an acronym also for the love of hearts in teaching. So, it all just kind of fits it. And so, I have a little logo that I’m working on, and I have the business license. And I’ve got the insurance. I’m a vendor with the city of Oceanside now. So, eventually I’ll do a website and have like business cards. I’ll be all official. (Diania chuckles) So, I can go anywhere and do it. I don’t have to just stay in Oceanside. DC: Are you going to, at some point, be part of that art—is it the art walk, or whatever it is there in Oceanside with a booth or anything showing— LK: Oh. (sighs) DC: —what you’re going to be doing? LK: I hadn’t thought about doing that. DC: Yeah. LK: Maybe. I don’t know. It’s on my favorite— DC: Floating hearts. I can see it already, you know. I picture it, you know, on your canopy and the whole thing. LK: Well, Diania, to tell you the truth, I hadn’t considered it. (Diania laughs) But I do reach out to the organizations. Like I did a mural for Ivy Ranch Horse Park. And that was successful. And then Preserve Calavera, I did one. So, I do reach out to other organizations. But I hadn’t thought about doing it monthly at Art Walk. But I will consider it. DC: And once you get your logo going. LK: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the stuff I do is volunteer. DC: Oh, yes. Yes. LK: So, that I think you have to pay. I’m not sure. But I can find out. I may have to pay for a table to do that. But I don’t know. DC: (chuckles) We’ve got some more things in there. LK: (coughs) Excuse me. DC: Some of these questions that I’m reading for this class and things, you know, I can talk more, and it depends on how personal you want to, you know, get into there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Like is there any mentors that you had through your life that have gotten you, you know, from one stage to another? You know, you can go back on— I look at it, you can go back on your life and, you know, from your childhood and, you know, the turmoil at one point. And you must have had some type of mentor. You did mention a teacher, you know, at that point. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then, almost everyone had some type in their stage that they don’t realize. There’s that mentor or that one person that it made a difference, either by saying something or doing something. Is there any mentor that you feel has helped you throughout your life? LK: That encouraged— DC: That encouraged you, that have gotten you to where you’re at today, and you want to speak about them or just mention them, you know, there, and how they helped you at each different phase in your life. LK: Well, dad was probably my first inspiration. Like I said, it was magical to watch him paint. Mom discouraged it. She didn’t—I guess she was worried that I was going to tace a path of no return or something. But she always wanted me to become a professional person. And it was interesting. We had a conversation on the phone one time. She said, “I always thought you’d be this professional businesswoman.” And I started laughing. And she’s all, “What’s so funny?” I said, “I am a professional, mom. I’m a teacher.” She goes, “Oh, not that kind of profession.” Like it was—she kind of thought of it as babysitting, I guess, in her own mind. She never looked at teaching as a profession. So, I think that got my dander up even more as far as “Well, I’ll show you.” But then, in college, I had many professors. Deborah Small was one of them, Yareli Arizmendi, many professors that saw talent and encouraged it in me, gave me more confidence, especially with theater. Yareli is a professional actress, and she was the professor there at Cal State San Marcos for a while. Her classes were fantastic, and I had a starring role in one of the plays we performed around the city. But Deborah Small, she kind of ventured off into computer art, which I found was not my niche. I preferred drawing. I’m a drawer. I don’t consider myself a painter. I draw everything. I can paint, and I can use color. But there’s something about a pencil and paper I love. So, there were colleagues , principals that I worked with that saw in me things that I didn’t know I had. But, most recently, it’s been people like you, Diania, and Mel in particular, Joanne, my husband, my son. My grandkids, Ty and Katie, are very important influencers in my life. And they’re like my biggest fans, so a lot of family. But a lot of—I think the friends I have now are the closest friends that, compared to past friends when I was younger, it’s different making friends at this age. It’s a much deeper level or something. It’s not superficial at all. So, I thank all of you for that. But I think the one who has pushed me the hardest has been your brother. DC: (laughs. Linda nods her head.) Well, he’s, to me—I’m just going to let you know—this was the interview going back and forth, and we’re talking here—is that he sees something in you, and he connect. And I think it’s the—you both are talented artists. He’s in the music field. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And you show at your artwork, you know. You can express it through art. He expresses himself through music. LK: Yes. DC: And I think the two of you make a good compare because you bounce off each other, like brother and sister. It’s, you know, on that. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s not like, you know, husband and wife. It’s more like a brother and sister type of thing. LK: Yeah. Yeah. DC: And you’re, you know—it’s good. And you can speak freely to each other, and it’s good. I think I’ve seen the growth in both of you on that. There’s other things that you have joined us with, you know, but you don’t mention it. You want to say another type of artwork that you try to get into (laughs). LK: Yeah, absolutely. But that’s only through you trusting me and seeing something in me that I didn’t know there either. Like basketry has been phenomenal. I just—I love it! And I love the process. I love watching the people do it. I enjoy helping you, and just the joy it brings people to put together a basket. You don’t think about that as being something people will be drawn to. But they are. And they’re just kind of one with their basket as they’re creating it, and the joy that is coming from them and the healing. Because like I tell my students, when you’re doing art, any kind of art, it’s just you and that piece. Whatever it is you’re working on, your mind is still going, and the problems are still there. But it takes a back seat because you are so focused on what you’re creating. And that’s where the healing begins, is—And basketry is like that. Something about going over, under, over, under (laughs) and getting it right, getting the tension right. It’s so important. It’s just really—The other thing that we’re involved in is the Valley Arts Festival which is—Julia started—well, she got a grant. And when she got the grant, she wanted to know what we should focus on. And her and I had talked about different cultures for many years. We wanted to do these things. And so, I mentioned the Luiseños because I’ve become close with you and Mel. And so, I introduced Mel to her and you to her, I think. And that’s where it went. We just started meeting and planning the Valley Arts Festival which is—We just did our second one, and it was a huge success. And so, hopefully, that’s going to continue every year whether she gets that grant or not. We need to continue it because we’re educating the community about just acknowledging the fact that the Luiseños were here ten or twelve thousand years before the encroachment of the white people. (both laugh) DC: It should be that way. But when are you going to go? I knew you’d say something about the basketry, you know. But that’s not the Luiseño. That’s not our traditional. That’s more the Cherokee style. What do you feel about learning when you have to sit down and you’re weaving with us, with traditional? LK: That is a challenge because the materials are so—You’re very precise about what materials are used for what part. And it took me a long time to learn even the names, the juncus, the—wait a minute. I’ll get it in a minute. DC: (whispers something) Yucca. LK: Yucca! (both laugh) That is the one I always forget! Always. But what you use for what part of the basket. And the starting is difficult, but I find the weaving, getting it precise and even and even the width of it. Like I have to take it out because the one I started is—I went too thick too soon. But the beauty of it and using the natural materials, there’s something about manipulating that natural material. But what I focus on when I’m working with you, I think this is what they did. They had time to do this, like and it was important because they used—They were functional art. They used the baskets for everyday things. And our culture, we just go and buy what we need. We didn’t have to worry about sitting and making something that could hold berries or hold whatever it was you were going to gather. It’s fascinating to me to be able to learn to do that. Because you can buy a kit and do a little basket online, you know, buy a kit online and do a basket. But to do it from the natural materials—Because you have permission to go and gather that material, the real thing, authentic. I guess that’s what it is. It’s the authenticity of it. That’s what’s so wonderful about it. DC: On some of the bigger picture here, what do you think some of your greatest accomplishments are, you know, up to this point in your life? What do you feel? LK: Uh, it’s hard. You know me, Diania. I’m not (unintelligible word). DC: I doubt, I mean, you know—when you think about your greatest accomplishments, you lost one. LK: Well, my two sons, absolutely. My two grandchildren. I have two step grandsons now too . My son is remarried. I’m really proud of all of them. They’ve come so far. But in my working world, I think some of my greatest accomplishments were getting Teacher of the Year three times and being runner up for county Teacher of the Year. I came in second or something like that. That was very—I was really honored by that. And so, I’ve gotten a lot of awards for teaching. And so, I’m proud of that. What I’m learning to become proud of is my own artwork, believe it or not. I’m not one to brag or toot my own horn but I am progressing, and I am getting much more confident about creating my own art. DC: But do you have any plans still for your life, you know, in the future? I mean, you’ve gotten your business . Now you’re doing this. Do you see the plans, how it’s going to go into the future? I mean, how’s it going to broaden for you in helping you within in your, you know, I’d call it your second career, your third career. How do you feel about that in your life? LK: What are my hopes for that? What do I hope to achieve? DC: Mm-hmm. LK: Long range goal, I would love to create a website and be able to market things that I create like the curriculum. I would love to market the Mel and the Blue Arrow curriculum because I think it’s really good and solid. And I would love for teachers throughout the county to be able to use it, particularly in North County where the Luiseños—this is the traditional land—because that will further the education of the people that live here, of the people that were here prior to us. And learning how they lived and honoring them as a people instead of somebody that we just kind of pushed out of the way is what I feel like we did with the indigenous people. And then, possibly, I’m writing another book. It’s called The Adventure of Big Pig. It’s about a guinea pig and that’s in honor of my sister who is suffering from a fatal illness. And I hope to get that done before—And even if I have to self-publish that as well, I will, just so she can have that. And I’m really close with her. She lives in Colorado. So, this is a difficult time. But that’s in honor of her. So, things like that. I hope to further writing. I write an article a month for Indian Voices, thanks to your brother Mel. (Diania chuckles) And that’s been challenging but also uniquely fun. It’s fun on a different level. DC: What do you think—Not to wrap it up or anything but is there any regrets within your life or you could have changed something differently at any point, you know, in your life? I, you know, I don’t like asking that question, personally, because I don’t think people should have regrets. But some people can look at life differently, you know. And it’s hindsight, but you can’t change anything. But is there anything that you would probably feel that could have been better or you could have did something differently? LK: I don’t look at it as regrets. I look at the past mistakes that I made. I would have made—There are different things. I would have made different choices. But what I’ve learned, by the age of 69, is all of those mistakes and all of the experiences you go through is what brings you to where you are right now. And had you not gone through those trials and tribulations and the mistakes, you would be different. I would be different. So, I have a different philosophy about it now. I just think everything we go through in life is going to take us to a different place and change us in a way that we need to change. And I also have learned through yoga and meditation to be grateful for even the bad things because it’s an opportunity to learn and it’s an opportunity for growth. And that’s kind of how I view things, and I wake up feeling grateful and I go to sleep feeling grateful. And I think that’s a gift we give ourselves because when you’re grateful, you can go out in the world and share that gift with others. And so, I try to practice that daily. So, yes, mistakes, but we all make them. We’re only human. (Diania chuckles) What do you expect from us? (Both laugh) DC: Is there anything that you want to let the people know that, you know, when they do view this recording and you’re going to be put in an archive. And if a student comes by or another person comes by and wants to know who Linda Kallas was and what she had done, is there anything you want to share with that person or group in this interview right now. You did do a little bit now, but is there anything more you want to say to kind of wrap it up to where you feel why this was important to do? LK: Well, I think one thing would be never, never give up. Never quit on a dream or an aspiration. You’re never too old to try something new. Never. Unless you physically cannot do it, physically. But, you know, to always keep learning in any capacity you can. Pursue interests. Pursue what interests you because there’s so much out there to gain knowledge on. But never give up. Never quit. You can’t quit. I sure wanted to when my son died. But I didn’t and I’m glad I didn’t. And everything I do now is in honor of him and the love for him and the love we shared as mother/son because that does not die. The physical person goes away. But the love you share with another person never dies. DC: Well, thank you, Linda. I really enjoyed doing this and I enjoyed my friendship and everything. I hope it’s going to continue on. And so, we both have grown together and shared some things that I know you didn’t share with, you know. We’ve got De Loos. We’ve got different places I’ve taken you, regarding into the Indian world, or you want to say that on there. But I’m going to wrap it up and say “No $uun Looviq.” LK: No $uun Looviq. DC: No $uun Looviq. LK: Thank you so much, Diania. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.
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Kallas, Linda. Interview December 22, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview of Linda Kallas, December 22, 2022. Interview conducted by Diania L. Caudell. Linda Kallas is a retired middle school art and drama teacher who has collaborated with other local artists and authors on a variety of endeavors, including illustrating "Mel and the Blue Arrow" written by Mel Vernon (Luiseño). Kallas and Vernon also collaborated on a Luiseño/English coloring book and on an arts integrated curriculum taught at Pablo Tac Elementary School in Oceanside. Kallas is also on the committee for the Valley Arts Festival that celebrates Luiseño culture each November at Heritage Park, Oceanside. In her interview, Kallas talks to Diania Caudell about topics such as family, school, higher education, post-college life, and her various art and cultural projects.
Identifier
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SC027-051
Subject
The topic of the resource
Arts education
Basket making
California State University San Marcos
Death and remembrance
Education -- Native Americans
Illustration of books
Luiseño Indians
Pablo Tac Elementary School (Oceanside, Calif.)
Valley Arts Festival (Oceanside, Calif.)
Women artists
Date
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2022-12-22
Format
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video
Creator
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Linda Kallas
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Diania Caudell
Coverage
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Oceanside (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Linda Kallas
Art and artists
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/cdd8c927aef587b85a92b296a56ca6e7.pdf
0d2e5dadce6ec7ed34f4621b0a1eec73
PDF Text
Text
LINDA KALLAS
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-12-22
DC: Good morning. My name is Diania Caudell and I’m, today, I’m interviewing Linda Kallas.
[Linda mouths her name quietly in repetition] And today’s date is December 22, 2022. I’m with
the North County Oral History Initiative. And it’s a class that we’re both been taking. And so,
this is my 2nd interview. And wish us luck here! [All three laugh.] Are you ready, Linda? Here
we go!
LK: I’m ready! [laughs and tosses her head back, then brushes her hair back]
DC: Okay. We’re going to be starting really simple and everything on that. That’s what they told
us to keep it going so to make sure that you’re going to be really at ease. And you can smile
when you want to, or whatever. So, let me know.
LK: Yeah.
DC: Uh, just when and where were you born?
LK: I was born in Norton, New Jersey in 1953. And we lived there ‘til I was three and then we
moved to California. After I was hit by a car—I have the dent to prove it right here— [rubs the
pointer finger of her left hand on a portion of her forehead] I was in traction for several weeks in
the hospital. And then my father had an opportunity to be in California for a new job. So, we
moved out here. My left leg was three inches shorter. I remember the limp. [paddles her hands in
front of her] I don’t remember the accident. I remember the hospital. But the limp—The leg grew
and caught up with the other leg. So—
DC: You want to tell me a little bit more about your family?
LK: Um, my dad was a drummer by profession. And then after he had three of us, three children,
and we moved to California, then my sister was born. And having four kids—and my mother
was only in her early twenties—they got married really young. He finally got a real job, working
as a plumber for a big—I think it was Hughes Aircraft. And then it was—we had a lot of turmoil
because of his affliction. He was an alcoholic. And mom was a stay-at-home mom. And then I
had two—she had two more boys. So, there were six kids in the family. And then they stayed
married ‘til I think I was seventeen. And then they divorced. And that was chaos too. But
anyway.
DC: Anyway. Okay. Would you like to speak of what school was like for you as a child?
LK: Well, we moved a lot. So, I went to like seven different elementary schools. We moved all
the time. And I have fond memories of elementary. That’s kind of my safe place to go to,
remembering good things. Like I had a teacher in third grade that read us The Secret Garden and
that sparked my love of reading. She would read to us every afternoon. And I just loved hearing
that story out loud, and then the library at the schools. The library was a safe zone for me. School
was my safe zone. And I think that’s why I furthered my education because it was something that
made me feel good. Learning, I loved learning. So, but, so there wasn’t really anything negative
at school for me, other than high school and the cliques and the—you know how that is. [Diania
chuckles] I stayed away from cliques. I was friends with everyone. I never fit in to one little
group. I just always was friends with everyone. So—
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�LINDA KALLAS
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-12-22
DC: On the activities when you were a child, I mean, what were you drawn to mostly, other than
the reading and the library wizard?
LK: Swimming, because we finally moved into a house with a pool. And I swam every day. That
was my—I just loved—to this day, I love to swim. Mom always tried to get me to be like a
cheerleader. She forced me to do—it was called “Darby Dolls” [makes air quotes with her
hands]. They were just pom-pom girls. [motions as if waving pom-poms] And I was in a parade
and I remember just being miserable. Just, that just was not me. Because I was a tomboy. I
wanted to do what the boys did, ride bikes. I wanted to have a paper route. Girls were not
allowed then to have paper routes. So, swimming was really one of the things I loved to do. And
I drew. I always loved to draw. My father also was a visual artist. And I remember watching him
paint murals on the wall. And it just seemed magical to me that he could tace this blank space
and all of a sudden there’s a bush there or a tree there. So, I think I learned my love of art
through him. And that was part of his recovery when he would sober up. That’s what he would
do. He would paint.
DC: Now, one of the things though, from high school, you went on to college? What—
LK: No.
DC: No?
LK: No. Not right out of high school. [shakes her head]
DC: Okay.
LK: No. I married my high school sweetheart. [Diania chuckles] Not married right away. We got
together in ’71 —’70 was our first date. And then I graduated in ’71. And then we moved in
together and we lived in Crestline, the mountains, for almost a year. But we were so dumb.
[Diania laughs] We’re southern California brats, right? We didn’t know anything about living in
the snow. So, I remember when we got our first electric bill and gas bill. And I went “You have
to pay for that???” I thought it just came with the house. [Diania chuckles] So, um, that was
quite the experience. And then we broke up for a year and I lived on my own, which was a really
important turning point. I became a medical assistant, and I learned that I could take care of
myself. I didn’t need to have another person to take care of me. And then we got back together.
And then we decided to get married five years later and start a family. So, we have two sons.
And that was it! Two boys. That was enough. [both laugh]
DC: So, when did you decide to actually go back to school?
LK: Not ‘til after the birth of my first son. You know, a lot of things came natural to me, coming
from a big family and being the oldest girl. I had to tace care of the younger siblings most of the
time. So, the baby stage, and nursing them, and all that stuff came really natural. But when they
became—when Josh became a toddler, I was like “Now what do you do with them?” You know,
I’d play with them, and I wanted to learn more about child development. That’s what sparked me
to go back to school. So, I got an AA in Early Childhood Education. And then I changed fields
and worked in that field for years, through my second son too. And then, even when we moved
here from L.A., I was a director of a crisis day care center, Casa de Emparo. So, that AA degree
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�LINDA KALLAS
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-12-22
served me really well. I was able to make a living doing it. But then, there’s only—you couldn’t
go any further than being a director unless I wanted to become a teacher of it. So, then I started
helping out at the elementary schools with my boys. And I really loved that. And so, that’s what
sparked me further and to get a teaching credential and then wind up teaching for almost twenty
years and got a master’s degree in education, so— And I taught Art and Drama at the middle
school level. And that was really, really fun.
DC: So, did you go to a local college when you were down here?
LK: I went to—I got my AA in L.A. at El Camino College. And then when we moved here, I’d
gotten my BA—well, I have two BAs at Cal State San Marcos. And the master’s degree—I call
it my drive-through. I shouldn’t say this. My drive-through master’s is through National
University.
DC: So, you were alone out here, right from Cal State San Marcos?
LK: Yep. Mm-hmm. I am.
DC: Yeah. Good for you. Okay. So, you’re one of the originals that were here on the campus.
LK: Yes.
DC: It was pretty small. Was it small?
LK: Before the campus, they were in the Jerome Shopping Center. That’s where I took my first
classes. And I got the teaching credential through Cal State San Marcos as well. It took me a
really, really long time because I did everything part-time. I still worked, had the kids, and then
did schooling part-time. So, I was 44 before I ever stepped foot in my own classroom.
DC: And then after that, you did it for how many years?
LK: Almost 18. I was at Jefferson Middle School for almost 18 years.
DC: And Jefferson is located where?
LK: It’s Oceanside Unified School District. It’s in the older part of Oceanside.
DC: And so, up to today you’re still with education in some forms.
LK: Yes. I started volunteering at the library, the Oceanside Public Library at the Literacy
Center. And I really loved doing that. And then I went to the Mission branch library and got with
Jenna Lease. And we created the Art for Older Adult program. And that’s at the senior center in
El Corazon. And next year, we’ll be at both senior centers. I also write curriculum which, Mel,
my interviewee’s brother [Diania chuckles], he wrote a book called Mel and the Blue Arrow and
asked me to illustrate it. So, I did. And so, we’ve been selling that. And then we approached
Pablo Tac Elementary School. They recently changed the name to that. And he—I proposed this
curriculum based on Mel and the Blue Arrow. And then, with Diania, I put together a coloring
book. Diania helped me with the translation. It’s in Luiseño and English. And that’s been very
successful. So, the students will get Mel and the Blue Arrow and the coloring book. So, we start
teaching there in February.
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�LINDA KALLAS
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-12-22
DC: Twenty?
LK: 2023.
DC: 2023. Okay, when—for me, you know, and in it, being able to interview you, I mean it’s an
honor to be with you and learn from you. But some of the questions on here, you know, you’ve
been in this region here in Southern California, not just L.A., but down here in San Diego
County for how long?
LK: Since 1989.
DC: So, 1989. So, you’ve seen changes that have affected where you’re living at or in the area.
Are any of them for you positive, that you’ve enjoyed watching the change? Or is it some things
that are coming through that are—feel like the region is getting too crowded? Or how do you feel
about it?
LK: It’s so different than when we moved down. Part of the attraction to this, to Oceanside was
we lived in a condominium that overlooked the Mission. But that was all fields and there was
farmland. And you would walk across the street and buy fresh pumpkins. There was a farm
stand. We could walk to the river and float on the river. We can’t do any of that anymore.
There’s buildings, buildings. The 76, we moved here before the 76 was completed. And they
kept saying “Oh, they’ll never build it. It’s been on the books for years.” Well, they built it. And
it was literally—you could throw a stone from our condo. The noise level was unbearable. That’s
what prompted us to move to, now we live in a senior community, which is very quiet [Diania
laughs] which we really like. And the streets are really wide. [both laugh} The neighbors are
really nice. And so, we kind of found our niche there.
DC: So, do you have favorite places in the community there in Oceanside or around the
surrounding areas?
LK: Well, my husband’s a surfer so we love the beach. We go to the harbor quite often to visit
the bench of our youngest son. Did you want me to talk about that?
DC: It’s up to you.
LK: Our youngest son, twelve years ago, was killed in a car accident. And so, we placed a bench
at the harbor, right across from the boat launch, in his memory. So, we go there quite often and
sit on the bench and talk to Jake. I love a lot of the area there. I love Heritage Park. I love Ivy
Ranch Parks. We love parks. Hohomi Park. All the parks we frequent quite often. I enjoy going
to the Mission just because of the grounds more than anything. I feel like I’m walking in history
when I go there. Having learned what I’ve learned about the Luiseños, it’s a way of honoring the
memory of the Luiseños there on that land. It’s sacred land but not sacred because the mission is
there. It’s sacred land because there was a village there. And I’ve learned a lot and learned to
appreciate history in that way.
DC: Well, one of the things that I think I’ve heard you talk about that’s unique is—okay, talk
about when you go to the bakery, San Luis Rey Bakery. What was happening there when you
first was going through there.
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Transcribed by Melissa Martin
�LINDA KALLAS
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-12-22
LK: Oh. The bakery. [Diania laughs] After Jake died in 2010, the anguish was unbelievable. I’ve
never experienced anything like that before or since. And I’ve been through a lot being raised the
way I was raised. But that was just—that was like a part of my soul was taken and my identity.
All of a sudden, I was searching online all the time for things to get my head on, out of the place
it was in, and all of a sudden, this announcement popped up of a flute circle at the San Luis Rey
Bakery. And I went [opens her mouth wide as if in awe] “Jim, we’re going to go to that.” [Diania
chuckles] So, we went. It was about, not maybe a year later, I think. And Mel is the one that
started that. And so, we started going faithfully every month. And little by little just the healing
of that sound and the camaraderie of the people, and the friend—They were so friendly.
Everybody was just so warm and friendly, and we just kind of felt like we fit there. And so, we
went until— It wasn’t Covid hit, really. But through that, I became friends with Mel. That’s
where we started talking about the book. And I became friends with Diania and other people,
Marge and Rob, and the people that frequent the flute circle. And it just was—had a really, really
positive influence on me.
DC: Did you try to play the flute?
LK: I have a flute and I do have one little tune I keep working on.
DC: You should have brought it! [Linda laughs] We could have played it. Now, I’m going to get
you to play the flute.
LK: It’s not for public consumption. [both laugh] I probably wouldn’t be able to hit one note.
[motions with her hands as if pressing on a flute]
DC: Yeah. With the, you know, living there in the valley and seeing the different changes. You
know, like you just talked about, and the flute circle is not there anymore. It’s not that they don’t
want it. It’s just that the capacity and the people have gone on to other things.
LK: Mm-hmm. [nods her head]
DC: There is a unique area right next door also that you’re involved in. You want to talk about
that a little bit?
LK: Are you talking about the Miramid Museum?
DC: Yes. Yes.
LK: With Joanne Tawfilis? Um, yes. Joanne is a muralist. And she does murals for any occasion.
But she usually honors, I guess, tragic events. So, if some kind of tragedy happens, she paints a
mural. And then, she sends it to that place. The most recent was Uvalde in Texas when that crazy
person shot all those children. But I help her with murals. She does other unique things as well.
But murals seem to be her niche in life. And she’s also in the UNESCO Peace Center there. And
one of these days we’ll have a grand opening, when the landlord signs off on it [motions as if
signing something with her right hand] And she does different events there, like her partner is a
drummer, so they do African drumming every Saturday. And she’ll have events there to honor
things that are going on, like she just did her birthday event. That was quite unique.
5
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�LINDA KALLAS
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-12-22
DC: I know that other things that you work with the community, you know, not just like the
Miramid, but I’d like you to stress your art, involvement really with the art. It’s unique, you
know, I think. So, you’ve shared other things that I wasn’t aware of, you know. And I think
that’s unique for us to learn. But can you specify what you do there at the centers there in
Oceanside with the—
LK: Are you thinking of Studio Ace?
DC: No, no. The one down in Oceanside by the library? What’s that center?
LK: Oh, the Literacy Center.
DC: Yes! Yes.
LK: The Literacy Center, I work with developmentally disabled adults. We started a Read-andDraw Program. So, I did a whole year of character education with them. So, I would bring in
posters where they were learning art literacy, visual literacy as well. But each poster had to do
with a character trait, for example, like compassion, or caring, or integrity. So, they got a
different character trait that they learned. And then we would involve poetry. So, we would write
poems. They would do a little drawing lesson and learn to talk about art. And they learned a lot.
And so, we’re going to continue that next year. We’re changing the name to, which I really like,
“Language Artist.” So, they’ll get—and it’s going to be based on the LeBrons art. He’s an
abstract expressionist artist. And so, we’ll look at his art and then I’ll teach them a lesson. And
then, they’ll write something. So, it’s all about literacy. And then, also, I’ve been involved with
Studio Ace since its inception. I’ve been Julia’s advisor, consultant, whatever you want to call it.
I set up programs for her at Laurel Elementary. And before Pablo Tac was Pablo Tac, it was San
Luis Rey Elementary. So, two schools I wrote curriculum for, trained two teachers and then they
took over. But, after that, I just would kind of consult with her, and we created some classes
together for the library. And then I transferred from working with her to working with the library
directly.
DC: So, there’s going to be some changes in your life soon. But how has your life’s path evolved
and changed over the years?
LK: I think since I’ve retired, when you teach art or drama for that matter, the last thing you
want to do when you go home is more of it because you’re so involved with it all day, seven and
a half hours a day. So, that part of my life has really increased as far as my drawing, and doing
art on my own, just for myself. But now, I want to tace that venture a little further and I’m going
to—well, I’ve opened my own business. And so, I’m still going to be offering all the same things
I offer right now—workshops, art lessons, curriculum, whatever people need, healing arts. I have
a whole repertoire of stuff that I can offer. But it will be under the title of “Floating Hearts
Connections.” And even that has meaning to it. Floating hearts is actually an aquatic plant, and
the leaves are shaped like a heart and then this little yellow flower comes up. And it has five
petals. And that has meaning to me because I told you before, I love to swim. Well, when I’m
done swimming, my favorite thing to do is to float. And so, with that in mind, I was looking for
names and talked with my husband, talked with you, talked with Mel. And they said—all of you
said I have to include something heart felt because that’s what I do. I collaborate with people and
provide healing through the arts. And so, when I found that, I went “Oh my gosh! Heart, floating,
6
Transcribed by Melissa Martin
�LINDA KALLAS
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-12-22
arts” and then the connections that I make. And floating is an acronym also for the love of hearts
in teaching. So, it all just kind of fits it. And so, I have a little logo that I’m working on, and I
have the business license. And I’ve got the insurance. I’m a vendor with the city of Oceanside
now. So, eventually I’ll do a website and have like business cards. I’ll be all official. [Diania
chuckles] So, I can go anywhere and do it. I don’t have to just stay in Oceanside.
DC: Are you going to, at some point, be part of that art—is it the art walk, or whatever it is there
in Oceanside with a booth or anything showing—
LK: Oh. (sighs)
DC: —what you’re going to be doing?
LK: I hadn’t thought about doing that.
DC: Yeah.
LK: Maybe. I don’t know. It’s on my favorite—
DC: Floating hearts. I can see it already, you know. I picture it, you know, on your canopy and
the whole thing.
LK: Well, Diania, to tell you the truth, I hadn’t considered it. [Diania laughs] But I do reach out
to the organizations. Like I did a mural for Ivy Ranch Horse Park. And that was successful. And
then Preserve Calavera, I did one. So, I do reach out to other organizations. But I hadn’t thought
about doing it monthly at Art Walk. But I will consider it.
DC: And once you get your logo going.
LK: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the stuff I do is volunteer.
DC: Oh, yes. Yes.
LK: So, that I think you have to pay. I’m not sure. But I can find out. I may have to pay for a
table to do that. But I don’t know.
DC: [chuckles] We’ve got some more things in there.
LK: [coughs] Excuse me.
DC: Some of these questions that I’m reading for this class and things, you know, I can talk
more, and it depends on how personal you want to, you know, get into there.
LK: Mm-hmm.
DC: Like is there any mentors that you had through your life that have gotten you, you know,
from one stage to another? You know, you can go back on— I look at it, you can go back on
your life and, you know, from your childhood and, you know, the turmoil at one point. And you
must have had some type of mentor. You did mention a teacher, you know, at that point.
LK: Mm-hmm.
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�LINDA KALLAS
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2022-12-22
DC: And then, almost everyone had some type in their stage that they don’t realize. There’s that
mentor or that one person that it made a difference, either by saying something or doing
something. Is there any mentor that you feel has helped you throughout your life?
LK: That encouraged—
DC: That encouraged you, that have gotten you to where you’re at today, and you want to speak
about them or just mention them, you know, there, and how they helped you at each different
phase in your life.
LK: Well, dad was probably my first inspiration. Like I said, it was magical to watch him paint.
Mom discouraged it. She didn’t—I guess she was worried that I was going to tace a path of no
return or something. But she always wanted me to become a professional person. And it was
interesting. We had a conversation on the phone one time. She said, “I always thought you’d be
this professional businesswoman.” And I started laughing. And she’s all, “What’s so funny?” I
said, “I am a professional, mom. I’m a teacher.” She goes, “Oh, not that kind of profession.”
Like it was—she kind of thought of it as babysitting, I guess, in her own mind. She never looked
at teaching as a profession. So, I think that got my dander up even more as far as “Well, I’ll show
you.” But then, in college, I had many professors. Deborah Small was one of them, Eureli
Arizmendi, many professors that saw talent and encouraged it in me, gave me more confidence,
especially with theater. Eureli is a professional actress, and she was the professor there at Cal
State San Marcos for a while. Her classes were fantastic, and I had a starring role in one of the
plays we performed around the city. But Deborah Small, she kind of ventured off into computer
art, which I found was not my niche. I preferred drawing. I’m a drawer. I don’t consider myself a
painter. I draw everything. I can paint, and I can use color. But there’s something about a pencil
and paper I love. So, there were colleagues, principals that I worked with that saw in me things
that I didn’t know I had. But, most recently, it’s been people like you, Diania, and Mel in
particular, Joanne, my husband, my son. My grandkids, Ty and Katie, are very important
influencers in my life. And they’re like my biggest fans, so a lot of family. But a lot of—I think
the friends I have now are the closest friends that, compared to past friends when I was younger,
it’s different making friends at this age. It’s a much deeper level or something. It’s not superficial
at all. So, I thank all of you for that. But I think the one who has pushed me the hardest has been
your brother.
DC: (laughs. Linda nods her head.) Well, he’s, to me—I’m just going to let you know—this was
the interview going back and forth, and we’re talking here—is that he sees something in you, and
he connect. And I think it’s the—you both are talented artists. He’s in the music field.
LK: Mm-hmm.
DC: And you show at your artwork, you know. You can express it through art. He expresses
himself through music.
LK: Yes.
DC: And I think the two of you make a good compare because you bounce off each other, like
brother and sister. It’s, you know, on that.
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�LINDA KALLAS
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2022-12-22
LK: Mm-hmm.
DC: It’s not like, you know, husband and wife. It’s more like a brother and sister type of thing.
LK: Yeah. Yeah.
DC: And you’re, you know—it’s good. And you can speak freely to each other, and it’s good. I
think I’ve seen the growth in both of you on that. There’s other things that you have joined us
with, you know, but you don’t mention it. You want to say another type of artwork that you try
to get into (laughs).
LK: Yeah, absolutely. But that’s only through you trusting me and seeing something in me that I
didn’t know there either. Like basketry has been phenomenal. I just—I love it! And I love the
process. I love watching the people do it. I enjoy helping you, and just the joy it brings people to
put together a basket. You don’t think about that as being something people will be drawn to.
But they are. And they’re just kind of one with their basket as they’re creating it, and the joy that
is coming from them and the healing. Because like I tell my students, when you’re doing art, any
kind of art, it’s just you and that piece. Whatever it is you’re working on, your mind is still
going, and the problems are still there. But it takes a back seat because you are so focused on
what you’re creating. And that’s where the healing begins, is—And basketry is like that.
Something about going over, under, over, under (laughs) and getting it right, getting the tension
right. It’s so important. It’s just really—The other thing that we’re involved in is the Valley Arts
Festival which is—Julia started—well, she got a grant. And when she got the grant, she wanted
to know what we should focus on. And her and I had talked about different cultures for many
years. We wanted to do these things. And so, I mentioned the Luiseños because I’ve become
close with you and Mel. And so, I introduced Mel to her and you to her, I think. And that’s
where it went. We just started meeting and planning the Valley Arts Festival which is—We just
did our second one, and it was a huge success. And so, hopefully, that’s going to continue every
year whether she gets that grant or not. We need to continue it because we’re educating the
community about just acknowledging the fact that the Luiseños were here ten or twelve thousand
years before the encroachment of the white people. (both laugh)
DC: It should be that way. But when are you going to go? I knew you’d say something about the
basketry, you know. But that’s not the Luiseño. That’s not our traditional. That’s more the
Cherokee style. What do you feel about learning when you have to sit down and you’re weaving
with us, with traditional?
LK: That is a challenge because the materials are so—You’re very precise about what materials
are used for what part. And it took me a long time to learn even the names, the juncus, the—wait
a minute. I’ll get it in a minute.
DC: (whispers something) Yucca.
LK: Yucca! (both laugh) That is the one I always forget! Always. But what you use for what part
of the basket. And the starting is difficult, but I find the weaving, getting it precise and even and
even the width of it. Like I have to take it out because the one I started is—I went too thick too
soon. But the beauty of it and using the natural materials, there’s something about manipulating
that natural material. But what I focus on when I’m working with you, I think this is what they
9
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�LINDA KALLAS
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2022-12-22
did. They had time to do this, like and it was important because they used—They were functional
art. They used the baskets for everyday things. And our culture, we just go and buy what we
need. We didn’t have to worry about sitting and making something that could hold berries or
hold whatever it was you were going to gather. It’s fascinating to me to be able to learn to do
that. Because you can buy a kit and do a little basket online, you know, buy a kit online and do a
basket. But to do it from the natural materials—Because you have permission to go and gather
that material, the real thing, authentic. I guess that’s what it is. It’s the authenticity of it. That’s
what’s so wonderful about it.
DC: On some of the bigger picture here, what do you think some of your greatest
accomplishments are, you know, up to this point in your life? What do you feel?
LK: Uh, it’s hard. You know me, Diania. I’m not (unintelligible word).
DC: I doubt, I mean, you know—when you think about your greatest accomplishments, you lost
one.
LK: Well, my two sons, absolutely. My two grandchildren. I have two step grandsons now too.
My son is remarried. I’m really proud of all of them. They’ve come so far. But in my working
world, I think some of my greatest accomplishments were getting Teacher of the Year three
times and being runner up for county Teacher of the Year. I came in second or something like
that. That was very—I was really honored by that. And so, I’ve gotten a lot of awards for
teaching. And so, I’m proud of that. What I’m learning to become proud of is my own artwork,
believe it or not. I’m not one to brag or toot my own horn but I am progressing, and I am getting
much more confident about creating my own art.
DC: But do you have any plans still for your life, you know, in the future? I mean, you’ve gotten
your business. Now you’re doing this. Do you see the plans, how it’s going to go into the future?
I mean, how’s it going to broaden for you in helping you within in your, you know, I’d call it
your second career, your third career. How do you feel about that in your life?
LK: What are my hopes for that? What do I hope to achieve?
DC: Mm-hmm.
LK: Long range goal, I would love to create a website and be able to market things that I create
like the curriculum. I would love to market the Mel and the Blue Arrow curriculum because I
think it’s really good and solid. And I would love for teachers throughout the county to be able to
use it, particularly in North County where the Luiseños—this is the traditional land—because
that will further the education of the people that live here, of the people that were here prior to
us. And learning how they lived and honoring them as a people instead of somebody that we just
kind of pushed out of the way is what I feel like we did with the indigenous people. And then,
possibly, I’m writing another book. It’s called The Adventure of Big Pig. It’s about a guinea pig
and that’s in honor of my sister who is suffering from a fatal illness. And I hope to get that done
before—And even if I have to self-publish that as well, I will, just so she can have that. And I’m
really close with her. She lives in Colorado. So, this is a difficult time. But that’s in honor of her.
So, things like that. I hope to further writing. I write an article a month for Indian Voices, thanks
10
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�LINDA KALLAS
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-12-22
to your brother Mel. [Diania chuckles] And that’s been challenging but also uniquely fun. It’s
fun on a different level.
DC: What do you think—Not to wrap it up or anything but is there any regrets within your life or
you could have changed something differently at any point, you know, in your life? I, you know,
I don’t like asking that question, personally, because I don’t think people should have regrets.
But some people can look at life differently, you know. And it’s hindsight, but you can’t change
anything. But is there anything that you would probably feel that could have been better or you
could have did something differently?
LK: I don’t look at it as regrets. I look at the past mistakes that I made. I would have made—
There are different things. I would have made different choices. But what I’ve learned, by the
age of 69, is all of those mistakes and all of the experiences you go through is what brings you to
where you are right now. And had you not gone through those trials and tribulations and the
mistakes, you would be different. I would be different. So, I have a different philosophy about it
now. I just think everything we go through in life is going to take us to a different place and
change us in a way that we need to change. And I also have learned through yoga and meditation
to be grateful for even the bad things because it’s an opportunity to learn and it’s an opportunity
for growth. And that’s kind of how I view things, and I wake up feeling grateful and I go to sleep
feeling grateful. And I think that’s a gift we give ourselves because when you’re grateful, you
can go out in the world and share that gift with others. And so, I try to practice that daily. So,
yes, mistakes, but we all make them. We’re only human. [Diania chuckles] What do you expect
from us? [Both laugh]
DC: Is there anything that you want to let the people know that, you know, when they do view
this recording and you’re going to be put in an archive. And if a student comes by or another
person comes by and wants to know who Linda Kallas was and what she had done, is there
anything you want to share with that person or group in this interview right now. You did do a
little bit now, but is there anything more you want to say to kind of wrap it up to where you feel
why this was important to do?
LK: Well, I think one thing would be never, never give up. Never quit on a dream or an
aspiration. You’re never too old to try something new. Never. Unless you physically cannot do
it, physically. But, you know, to always keep learning in any capacity you can. Pursue interests.
Pursue what interests you because there’s so much out there to gain knowledge on. But never
give up. Never quit. You can’t quit. I sure wanted to when my son died. But I didn’t and I’m glad
I didn’t. And everything I do now is in honor of him and the love for him and the love we shared
as mother/son because that does not die. The physical person goes away. But the love you share
with another person never dies.
DC: Well, thank you, Linda. I really enjoyed doing this and I enjoyed my friendship and
everything. I hope it’s going to continue on. And so, we both have grown together and shared
some things that I know you didn’t share with, you know. We’ve got De Loos. We’ve got
different places I’ve taken you, regarding into the Indian world, or you want to say that on there.
But I’m going to wrap it up and say “Noh, shalovik.”
LK: Noh, shalovik.
11
Transcribed by Melissa Martin
�LINDA KALLAS
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-12-22
DC: Noh, shalovik.
LK: Thank you so much, Diania.
12
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�
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Kallas, Linda. Interview transcript, December 22, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Transcript of oral history interview of Linda Kallas, December 22, 2022. Interview conducted by Diania L. Caudell. Linda Kallas is a retired middle school art and drama teacher who has collaborated with other local artists and authors on a variety of endeavors, including illustrating "Mel and the Blue Arrow" written by Mel Vernon (Luiseño). Kallas and Vernon also collaborated on a Luiseño/English coloring book and on an arts integrated curriculum taught at Pablo Tac Elementary School in Oceanside. Kallas is also on the committee for the Valley Arts Festival that celebrates Luiseño culture each November at Heritage Park, Oceanside. In her interview, Kallas talks to Diania Caudell about topics such as family, school, higher education, post-college life, and her various art and cultural projects.
Creator
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Linda Kallas
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Diania Caudell
Melissa Martin
Date
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2022-12-22
Subject
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Arts education
Basket making
California State University San Marcos
Death and remembrance
Education -- Native Americans
Illustration of books
Luiseño Indians
Pablo Tac Elementary School (Oceanside, Calif.)
Valley Arts Festival (Oceanside, Calif.)
Women artists
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Oceanside (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Linda Kallas
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<a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a>
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text
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KallasLinda_CaudellDiania_2022-12-22_transcript
Art and artists
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ca6f54f3772da765d27df005f357db44.pdf
e3319aac7d71629d4dc452c92d58367b
PDF Text
Text
LIZBETH ECKE
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-04-13
Peirce: Well, I would hope so. Otherwise, this whole thing is caput <laugh>. Okay. <laugh> So, good
evening. My name is Jacob Peirce. I am a first year graduate student at Cal State San Marcos in the
history program. And this is part of a series documenting historical figures, impactful figures in North
County, San Diego. Today I'm speaking with, Lizbeth Ecke. And, thank you for being here. Let's start real
general, real broad. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you were born?
Growing up, just general information like that.
Ecke: I was born here in San Diego, born raised in Encinitas hold, <cough> pardon me. I grew up in the
same house that my father grew up in. I went to the same elementary school and high school that my
father went to. So I was friends with the children of the, some of the people that my father went to high
school with. So pretty entrenched in Encinitas, California. I did move away for college and work for
about 13 years, but other than that, I pretty much lived in Encinitas my entire life.
Peirce: That's awesome. And you said that you went to the same the same school, you lived in the same
house and your family was pretty established at that point within the community. Was it difficult
growing up with the kind of expectations, of being in your family like that?
Ecke: There may have been individual instances, but no, not really. I mean, Encinitas was still a pretty
small town when, I was growing up. I mean, Interstate 5 didn't even go through till I was about 11 years
old. Most people were in flower farming like our family was. And, so I mean, people probably knew my
name without knowing me, but, and that probably ended up mostly being good. But, so no, I mean I
would say later on there have been challenging times when we, as a family have wanted to do things
and we've gotten a lot of bad press. I mean, I know that my mother and grandmother, had a harder time
than I ever remember having.
Peirce: Absolutely.
Ecke: Dealing with, harder in the sense of, people being rude to them or mean, or those kinds of things.
But I can't say that I remember much of any of that.
Peirce: Was there specific reasons for that treatment that they received? Do you remember them saying
anything about that?
Ecke: About, well, I know that there was a newspaper in town called The Coast Dispatch, that the man
who owned it really, he didn't like our family. And I mean, I've heard various stories about why he didn't,
the one that seems to have made the most sense to me, but I don't really know whether it's the real
reason or not is because he owned a lot of, real estate right in Downtown Encinitas. And when they
were putting through I-5, the original plan was to just run it along, down the coast highway. And, as it
ended up being in some other, places farther north of here, and my grandfather was one of the people
who fought pretty hard to say, let's not destroy all of the downtowns of all of these, you know, Carlsbad
and Solana Beach and Del Mar and Encinitas. Let's put it inland a little ways and keep our downtowns.
And my grandfather was on the winning side of that. I mean, it wasn't because my grandfather or
grandparents owned any land, particularly in the right of way of where I-5 ended up. They just, he just
thought it was made more sense. So he fought for that and again, was on the winning side. And so the
guy who owned The Coast Dispatch was pissed off because he was expecting to make all this money
from selling all of his right of way in Downtown Encinitas. There may have been other reasons that
maybe that, you know, he was a powerful man in town. My grandfather was a powerful man in town
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and they maybe just didn't like each other, I don't know. But, you know, I know that my grandmother,
was treated poorly at times, by people that, you know, she was somebody who really cared about and,
tried to be helpful. And, you know, people that during the depression that needed food, bringing food to
the school and doing things like that, and there was any number of people that didn't want her help
because she was an Ecke and that was painful for her.
Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I can imagine like that's a wild thing to think about. Did you, speaking of
your mother and your grandmother, what inspiration, if any, did you take from [th]em, in your personal
life going forward as a professional woman, as someone who growing up in this family, did you take any
lessons from them? And, and if so, how did you kind of, feel it, that you represented the family in that
way?
Ecke: Well, you know, my grandmother got married at 19 and had her first kid at 20, so she didn't ever,
she didn't have anything more than a high school education. My mother did go to San Diego State and,
did have a degree. But both of them, along with, my father, maybe a little less, my grandfather was very
big <unintelligible> [into] giving back. And it was always something that my parents talked about, but
they also, they didn't just talk about it. They did it. And they, my grandmother was very involved with
the Solana Beach Presbyterian Church and did a lot out of help through that, there was an orphanage
down in Tijuana that she was, very supportive of. And I remember her when I was a child, her loading up
her car and barreling on down to Tijuana to bring them whatever it was that she had in her car that
week or month or whatever it was. My mother was very, was involved in lot of things. She was always
on the PTA. We were all in 4H growing up and she was a 4H leader. She volunteered for children's
hospital. She later on when us kids weren't at home or were, you know, didn't need as much attention
all the time she was involved with Planned Parenthood, she was a huge Planned Parenthood supporter.
She, I'm trying to think of the other, Neurosciences Institute. I think it was called G <unintelligible> I
can't remember the name of it, but she was constantly involved with lots of different organizations,
voices for children. She was very involved with San Diego State, which is where she went to school with
the library at San Diego State. So I think that what I took away from that was that, it's important to give
back and everybody can give back, but if you are somebody of, means and, are known within your
community, it's even more important to, to give back that that's a commitment, an obligation really.
And, I heard about it growing up and I saw it growing up. And so that's probably what I took from it
more than, I mean, took from them more than anything was that they didn't just talk the talk, they
walked the walk.
Peirce: Yeah. I was about to, I was about to ask you about the, whether that was something that was,
verbally taught to you. Like, if it was like, “Hey, this is what we do,” or you just kind of learn from
example in regards to that, but you kind of, you kind of answered that.
Ecke: Yeah.
Peirce: Most of the press that I was able to read, mostly focuses on the men, in your family. Was that
frustrating for, <unintelligible> you can go ahead and answer if you got something.
Ecke: Well, I mean, I don't know that I think that it's, pretty standard for a, certainly for my
grandparent’s generation and for my parent’s generation. That’s what you did, even if a, a wife or
whatever was very involved in a business, you generally look to the husband for, you know, and they
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were the person that got all the glory and that's just the way our society has been set up. In this
generation my brother probably has had more publicity than I have just because he is the one that
owned the Poinsettia Business. And so that naturally, I mean, he got a lot of press just from own owning
the Poinsettia Business. He's also probably much more, comfortable in front of the camera because he's
been doing it for so long. So, when we are both in a situation and somebody wants one of us to speak, I
will defer to him.So, so that to some degree would be my fault, for not taking the spotlight when I could
all the time. But yes, I mean, I think that just as a woman in society, it is sometimes frustrating, to have
grown up and seen all the work that my grandmother and my mother did for the family business. And
when you talk about the family business, you don't really hear much about them. I mean, some of that's
getting righted a little bit, now, but it's certainly they didn't ever get any, any <unintelligible> whatever
they, nobody called them out as doing great things when they were doing them.
Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. Which is, which is a shame, honestly. <Unintelligible> I guess kind of
where I want to go with that though, you brought up some of the functions that your grandmother and
your mother and that you have supported. Right? How do you decide what to support? Is there any-- is
it really up to you? What you support? Do you speak to people in the family just to make sure that the
family name is doing kind of-- is there like any collaboration or is it, whatever you decide to kind of
support at that time?
Ecke: No, I think that, I mean, I, I haven't ever felt like if there was something that I wanted to support
that anybody had any issue with it. I mean, maybe just being part of the family, there is a sense of, I
suppose if I ever thought that there was something I wanted to get involved with that might create a
problem, I would probably have a conversation. My brother and sister and I are pretty close and have
good relationships. So, I wouldn't expect that any of us would get involved with something that we
thought how had an edge to it without first, at least, telling others. But you know, what I've been
involved with has changed over the years when my kids were school age, I was very involved with their
schools. I have, you know, I'm involved with, YMCA a that's named after my grandmother. I was involved
with it a number of years ago. And there, if you read anything about me, it's probably how I got myself
kicked off of the board, but, <laugh> the man that was running the, San Diego, the corporate Y for San
Diego, he, didn't renew his contract and now there's somebody new. So then, so now I'm back on the
board. <laugh>, I'm all, I mean, I also am very supportive of Planned Parenthood, not to the degree my
mother was, my mother was on the board. That might be something I'd be willing to do down the road.
So I think that, that what I'm involved with evolves as whatever else is happening in my life or around
me.
Peirce: Absolutely. And then that makes sense, right? Like, you know, you're not, it's not like you give,
give a dollar one day and then you're just, you're guaranteed to give it the rest of your time. Right. It
really kind of focuses as your, as your life moves from place to place <affirmative> and from stage to
stage, you know, as I, you know, I'm a new dad, I never would've thought about all the things I do with
my kid and donating and doing stuff for that kind of stuff that prior to having him right. Every stage, it
kind of takes you to a different…
Ecke: Well, this isn't, it isn't in your field of vision.
Peirce: Absolutely. And that's understandable. Right. We only can see here to here. Right. We can't see
the full picture unless you're in it sometimes. Do you mind if I pivot to, to the Poinsettias? I just have a
few questions on that.
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Ecke: Absolutely.
Peirce: I never grew up in a family that had like any sort of a business or anything like that. My parents
were teachers. But were you interested in horticulture at all? Were you interested in flower, like any
sort of growing flowers?
Ecke: Well, yeah. I mean, the house that I grew up in it was right in the middle of the Poinsettia [fields].
Peirce: Absolutely.
Ecke: So it was, you know, and I had done a lot of work for, I worked in the tissue culture lab at the
ranch. I worked in the greenhouses many summers. I, we, all three of us grew up there was never a
family vacation that we took that we didn't go visit greenhouse customers where ever it was in the
world. And, when I had studied overseas in Mexico and in Germany, I've gone and visited flower
customers on my own. So I was involved with it. But I also knew that wasn't gonna be the career I was
going to choose. I mean, and not that anybody said I couldn't, but, you know, my grandfather's name
was Paul Ecke Sr. My father was Paul Ecke Jr. and my brother's Pauly III and my name isn't Paul <laugh>.
So, and that being said, my sister and I were had ownership interest in the ranch as much as my brother
did, but we also made a determination, I don't know, 30 years ago or more that, the ranch really needs
to have a singular head of it, it was not a businesses that was gonna get managed very well with a, you
know, three people trying to do it. So we sold our interest to my brother and that made sense. I was on
the board of directors for the ranch, so I was still involved. And my brother and I, I mean, any time my
brother had big decisions to make, he would talk to me. So I may have not had my name on the
company, but I did feel very involved with it. And you know there's a Los Angeles flower market where
we would sell poinsettias every year. And I did that as did my brother and my sister and now I'm
chairman of the board of that flower market. And so I had been involved in the flower business pretty
much all my life, one way or another, I wasn't the face of the Poinsettia Ranch.
Peirce: But you enjoyed working with the flowers you enjoyed working with your hands?
Ecke: Oh yeah, no, absolutely. You know, and now we, as a family have the flower fields in Carlsbad. So
I'm still, involved with, well, not growing the flowers, but involved with the floral culture business, and
being on the board of the American Forest Exchange. I am attuned to what’s going on within that part of
the sector of the world and I like it and I always have.
Peirce: Awesome, awesome. I can’t even keep plants alive in my own house, so that just having an entire
farm stresses me out just the thought of it.
Ecke: <laugh> Oh, well, I've never run a farm. So that, that…
Peirce: Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. <laugh>
Ecke: I do, I did have a minor in horticulture in undergraduate school, but that was, as far as I went with
that.
Peirce: What was your major, if you don't mind me asking?
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Ecke: It was business.
Peirce: Business.
Ecke: And then I got an MBA in real estate and finance, so-Peirce: Absolutely. You've mentioned multiple arenas where you are on the board of directors or even
the chairman of the board and stuff like that. Have you as a woman faced any pushback, any friction
from people when you take these kind of leadership positions?
Ecke: Well, most of the things that I've been on, I would say, well, no, I mean, when I was first, went on
to the, American Forest Exchange Board, I was the first, I wasn't the very first woman that had ever been
on the board, but I was the first woman to be on the board for quite some time. And I would, I will say
that it was probably for the other men then that were on the board. My father had just recently passed
away and he had been chairman of the board. And then I, took over, I took his seat on the board. So I
think that, and I was much younger than the majority of the men on the board that isn't necessarily the
case now, but it was then, which is almost 20 years ago now. I think that they initially had, they didn't
have an issue with me being on the board, but I think that they were kind of surprised that I had an
opinion or, that I took issue with some of the things that they, wanted to do. Or so I wouldn't see, say
that I ever felt like they were trying to figure out a way to get me off the board, but I do think that there
were some times when they were frustrated that I wasn't just playing along with whatever they wanted
to do. Other boards that I'm on the YMCA board there's been women on that board long before I was
ever on it. And, so I never felt anything there. We have a family foundation board, that my aunt has
been on for as long as I can remember. And, and I've been on it for 40 years. So really no, I mean where I
had a lot of pushback when I was first came back and worked for the family, I was doing a lot of leasing
and tenant improvement work and construction management. And this was back in the eighties, late
eighties. And there were a lot of construction guys that really were not very excited about taking orders
from, you know, a short woman or probably a woman in general, but then this little, tiny person with a
high squeaky voice, I can't <unintelligible> anybody absolutely wouldn't do what I asked them to do. It
may have just taken me be more forceful than I needed to be.
Peirce: Absolutely.
Ecke: To do that. But you know, my father was to his credit. He really promoted, my sister and myself to
do whatever we wanted to, to do. And, when I, I remember one time when I was probably 15 working
up in Los Angeles at the flower market over Christmas, [be]cause that's the only time we would've been
up there with the poinsettias. And my father put me a in charge of the phone orders. And so I
remember, some big customer called and asked for my father and my father said, no, I don't have time,
you just deal with them. And I went back and the conversation kind of went on. And then he finally said,
I want to speak with a real Ecke. And so, I then went out, I mean, [be]cause again I'm 14 or 15 years old
and I go back out and I said, dad, he says, he'll only place this order with a real Ecke. And my father said,
you go back in there and said, tell him if he wants to buy poinsettias he is going to buy them from you.
And he's gonna give the order to you. And you are just as real of an Ecke as anybody else. And so I went
back in there and told the guy and he was none too happy, but he did give me the order. So my father
did things like that really, he may not have believed that when he was 20 years old. But I think that my
mother did a very good job of convincing him and teaching him that he should be paying attention to his
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daughters as much as his son. And he did credit her with that. He would be the first one to say that he
had a good relationship with his daughters because my mother taught him how to do that.
Peirce: That's amazing. That's really awesome. Especially that, that kind of support, that young, how,
how, early did you become, involved in the, in the family business? Like from as long as you can
remember, or…?
Ecke: Oh, I, well, I mean actually working, getting a paycheck was, you know, probably fifteen dollars.
But even before that, when we were little again, our house was right there, the middle of the ranch and
we'd go out and my father would put me to work, you know, folding, putting together pieces of different
pieces of paper and stapling them and folding them to go in boxes of poinsettias that were being
shipped out mostly as a way to keep me busy and out of other people's way. But I mean, I was probably
doing that from the time I was seven or eight years old, or he would pay us, like a penny to pick up trash,
to walk around the whole ranch and pick up trash and he would pay us, I dunno, 10 cents an hour or
something ridiculous to do that. But, so always my parents were big believers in working and knowing
the value of money. And my mother had grown up in a fairly poor family. Her family had moved out to
California when she was 15 and lived in, government subsidized housing where UCSD [University of
California San Diego] is now, they’d moved because my grandmother, I knew that she had, she knew,
wanted her children to go to college and California back then had, still does have, a good college system,
but it was virtually free. And, you know, my mother had two brothers and a sister and, you know, she
went to San Diego State. She had one brother that became a doctor and another brother that became a
veterinarian. And they all benefited from the school systems in, in San Diego, but that's why they
moved. And my mother worked a lot from whenever. I mean, from the time she could remember, so she
went, they lived through being homeless during the depression and other things. So my mother brought
that to the table for us in the sense of understanding that you can't be wasteful, you need to think
about, you know, how you spend your money. And my parents were on the same page with all of that
you know, just because you have money doesn't mean that you need to flaunt it or that you have to
spend it all just because you have it. And it, you know, there's other people that might need it more
than you do, and it's your responsibility to help out with that. So I feel like I got, fairly grounded in the
understanding of that.
Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. You, you've spoken a couple times about, growing up directly on, on the
ranch <affirmative> and when you were a kid, I'm assuming that, Encinitas was a little bit more rural
than it is now, not rural, but just less developed.
Ecke: Yeah.
Peirce: How has it been watching it grow over the years? Do you miss old Encinitas somewhat? Do you,
you wish that things were a little bit different? Do you, do you just enjoy seeing time and things
progress? Like what, what is your viewpoint on that?
Ecke: Well, yeah, I mean, if, if Encinitas could be the Encinitas that I grew up in, I thought that that was
fabulous. If I was really living in that would, I think is, is as fabulous, you know, you get nostalgic about
things. But I could, when I was growing up and I had my horse, I could ride my horse down Encinitas
Blvd. all the way to the beach and ride my horse on the beach with my other friends who had horses.
And, it was you… <unintelligible> So, I mean, there's things like that, that I'm nostalgic for. But places
change. I mean, you can't expect things to not change. And, for the most part, I think that the way
Encinitas has changed is pretty good given, you know, the options. I mean, there wasn't, there isn't a
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way that Encinitas was gonna stay the way that it was, but it was a lovely place to grow up. I mean, I,
again, I knew there was like two elementary schools and, you know, one high school. And when I went,
graduated from high school, there was only one high school from Del Mar to through Encinitas. So we,
all went to San Dieguito together. My high school graduating class in 1975 was the last year that we
were together, [be]cause then Torrey Pines was built and they opened up Torrey Pines [High School]. So,
I mean it was, it was a very close-knit community. And it was, you know, nice to know you go into a
grocery store, the drug store and you know, it's, somebody's father that's there or, you know,
<affirmative> and that, that was a nice thing. And I, and I do miss that, but I suppose if that was super
important to me, I could go find some other very small community that I could have that.
Peirce: No, absolutely. I, I mean, I grew up in, I grew up in Riverside and in the, the eighties and nineties
and I still remember driving to, to school and, running into, into, shepherds herding sheep across the
road. And now every single part of that is, is track housing that they built that are, you know, the cookie
cutter houses and, you know, you can get nostalgic for it, but I, I can completely understand like you,
you do what you do, what, what you can with what it is. People need to live. People need houses and
people need to, things grow and things change, but it was just interesting to, you know, you you've been
living in that, you lived in that same house as your, as your, as your father and everything. And it's just
like, you know, having it grow around that is, is a interesting perspective for sure.
Ecke:
Definitely, it definitely is. I mean, it's, it's weird because now I live in that, well, we've redone the house,
but I live in what was my grandparents’ house that my grandparents built when my parents got married,
they built a house and moved into the house. And then my parents moved into the house that my father
grew up in. So I now live in the location, not the house anymore because we did rebuild it about 15
years ago, but to where my grandparents lived and, and it was a very different place then, because
when I was growing up from my grandparents’ house, they were half a mile off of any public road in fact
when I moved into this house 30 years ago, we were still Leucadia Boulevard, didn't go through. And so I
was a half a mile off of any paved road. And, there the view, they had a view to the west, which we still
have and a view to the east and there was nothing to the east, nothing at all. I mean, there was one light
that you could see out there. And I remember that when I was a kid and now that's all houses. And just,
you know, my father, this is totally a, a side note, but my father was also very involved with Cal[ifornia]
State [University] San Marcos and getting it started and was very enthusiastic about it, which is, part of
the reason that, my brother and I decided that that's what the family papers should, should go. It was, it
kind of made sense because we had that connection.
Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. We, we appreciate it. Not that I'm, I have a particular hand in it, but at
the same time I, you know, as a, as a budding historian, I do appreciate <affirmative> people putting
their things in the, in archives. Is it, I'm trying to figure out how I can word this… right. When you, when
you've spoken about like how your grandfather advocated for the, the, the I-5 going where it, it goes
and, and your father was, was, a, a large part of, of the, the beginnings of Cal State San Marcos, right? Is
it, do you ever sit and think like, oh wow. Like my family has really impacted this, this area in, in many
ways, like, you'd sit, be like, wow, like this is here in part because of the way that my family has kind of
shaped the area. Do you ever think about that and how it like, is that an interesting thought to you or is
that never occurred?
Ecke: Yeah, it, no, it is. And I mean, it's something generally. I mean, I would say it's a sense of pride to
know that, that the, our, we didn't, we as a family, didn't just come here and do what we did without
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wanting to better our community and be involved in our community. I mean, I know that my parents
and grandparents, when Encinitas was super tiny when they were here, they, there wasn't anything for
anybody to do after work. I mean, there just wasn't anything here. So they figure out how to build a
bowling alley in, in Downtown Encinitas. So people had a place to go versus I guess, just going to a bar or
something. I mean that there was someplace something else to do. And, those kinds of things, I mean,
there's nothing that there's no rules or laws or anything that says that you have to do that, but if you're
gonna be part of a community, it's nice to know that your family helped build that community. So it,
yeah, it is something that I think about, at times when, you know, there's, and there's enough things
named after our family, there's a park in Encinitas. And then there's the YMCA and there's various other
things that, remind me and maybe the community of what we've done. I would say that it is very
different now than it was even 20 years ago. I mean, 20 years ago, I could, if I said my name was Ecke,
pretty much anybody in Encinitas would've heard the name, they would, I mean, they might not know
anything, but they would've heard the name. And, that isn't necessarily the case now, and that's not a
bad thing, but it is, we are a much, larger and diverse community now. So, our family doesn't play the
same kind of role as it used to. I mean, we still are very supportive of the community and we have a
family foundation and most of the money, it's not a huge found[ation], but most of the money that
comes out of that does get invested in, local charities, things like the YMCA or the community resource
center or things like that. So we still are very involved, but again, because the community has grown so
much, we're just not as big a, a part of it, which that's a good thing, [be]cause there's a lot more people
out there that are also being supportive of things that need to be supported.
Peirce: Absolutely. Given, your longstanding, presence in the community, as people have come in, have
you. worked with other people who have tried to make a difference in the community? Have you tried
to foster those kinds of, any sort of other, like, charitable services or anything like that? Has anyone
come to you and been like, how do I start this? How do I do this and kinda look to you and have, have
you mentored anyone in that regard?
Ecke: No, I don't think that I could say that I've done that. And I don't think that I would certainly know
how to tell anybody to start something. I mean, I've been involved with any number of things, like the
Community Resource Center and the YMCA and grower school and any number of things. And so I've
met a lot of other people within the community and I mean, the people that tend to volunteer and give
money is just like almost anything in life. You've got, you know, 20% of the people doing 80% of the
work or giving or whatever. I mean, it is, you see the same people over and over again.
Peirce: Absolutely. What else do you, where do you see your role in the family moving forward? Where
do you see your family moving forward in the community, given that you've said that it, as the
community has grown, you've kind of, do you still see your family as a vital part of the community you
have going forward?
Ecke: No, definitely. My brother lives in Encinitas. I live in Encinitas, you know, we both raised our
families in Encinitas. My sister lives in North Carolina, and we both still work in the family business. And I
don't see that really changing at some point in the future. Some of the kids, my kids, my brother’s kids,
my sister’s kids may wanna come back and be part of the family business. At some points somebody's
gonna have to take over things from our, my generation of, people, but pretty much all of those in their
twenties. So they're still figuring out what to do with their lives. But, I mean, my father was involved
with in the community and pretty much until the day he died and my mother until her Alzheimer's got
too bad, was involved with the community. So I never saw my parents just say, okay, I'm done now. And
I'm gonna, you know, go just have fun all day every day and not be involved with my community. So, and
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my husband grew up in a similar type of in environment. So I don't see us just, you know, retiring and
doing, not being involved.
Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say has been, your proudest accomplishment? Whether
it's in North County or just in general, what, what are you most proud of and in your career, in your life
in general?
Ecke: Well, I mean the most obvious answer would be my children. I mean, I've raised two children that
are self-sufficient and, you know, both graduated from college. My son's getting his PhD now and, you
know, they're supporting themselves and that in of itself is an accomplishment as a parent. I don't, I
don't know that… There is a given thing that I could say that I would point to. I know I'm happy that I
have been able to be part of the family business in a relevant way. It was something that was very
important to my mother because she didn't always feel seen. And so she fought very hard for my sister
and myself to be seen and to be heard. And I think it was, something that she was very proud of when,
she had daughters that were involved and had a say in what was happening. And so I feel accomplished
that I fulfilled something that was important to my mother.
Peirce: Absolutely.
Ecke: But I don't know that there's a specific, or that I can think of a specific thing that I've fought for
and won on or something.
Peirce: I mean it is a difficult question unless you clambered up Everest or something, it's like, well, you
know, like I was just curious if there was anything specifically, you're like, oh yeah. You know, like, I won
the World Cup or something, but you know what I mean?
Ecke: No, none of those things.
Peirce: Same here, so it's, yeah. I had one question I did have about the papers that you donated. Was it
important for you and your family to have someplace, public for repository of that nature? Or what was,
what was the reasoning behind that and why was that important to you guys?
Ecke: Well, my mother was a big history buff. That probably was part of it, but-- It just, there was a
hundred years of history of our family. Because you know, my grandfather, my grandparents first came
down here in the early 1920s, and bought land. And Encinitas was basically a railroad station at that
time. And was really one of the founding families. And there was, lots of records because we lived on
the ranch, and we had all these various barns and buildings. I don't think much of anything ever got
thrown away because you didn't have to throw it away. So there are, you know, receipt books and
things from back in 1926, you know, and, I will say that my brother did a yeoman's job when, after he
had sold the ranch property and sold the business, he spent a year going through all of those records
and consolidating and organizing, a hundred year’s worth of stuff. And that was a huge job. And during
that time we talked about, well, okay. I mean, it didn't seem right to just throw it away. I mean, but
what do you do with it? I mean, that is really the question of what are the choices. So, we talked to
various people there and I should remember his name, somebody who is a history professor there at Cal
State San Marcos that was also on the board of the, historical society here in Encinitas. And we met with
him, and I think it may have been his suggestion that we go and talk to the librarian out there. The other
thing that we thought about was, San Diego State, because we had a connection there with my mother,
Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins
9
2022-09-27
�LIZBETH ECKE
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-04-13
my father went to Ohio state, so that wasn't gonna make sense. I mean, but, you know, Cal State San
Marco was here and in North County and we had a connection with it. And so that seemed to make the
most sense because it just didn't feel right to just go rent a warehouse and put it in there who was ever
gonna do anything with it. And, you know, I think that there is a wealth of knowledge in history, even if
it's just mundane things that, you know, receipt books from back in 1926, and you can see what a bag of
flower cost or whatever. I mean, you're a historian. And then those are the kinds of things that people
can look back on and get real information about what life was like. And you know Cal State San Marcos
was the one that was really venturing into new territory because they didn't have any, we were kind of
the first one. We were all kinda learning together as to what this meant. I mean, we didn't, I mean, we
knew that families gave papers to various learning institutions. I didn't ever know anybody personally
who had, or, you know, what, like that really meant. So it's been a cool learning experience.
Peirce: Oh, absolutely. As, like the idea of you were saying, like, we didn't know what to do with it. I was
just like, in my head, I'm like, please don't throw it away, even though I know you didn't, like, I was just
like, don't do it. <laugh> Well, as we wrap up here, is there anything about you, your life, your family,
that you feel like I, we haven't touched on that you kind of wanna talk about today?
Ecke: I don't know. There probably is, but nothing that is, jumping, to mind right now. Yeah, I mean, it’s
been a fun ride. I don't think it's over. I feel very privileged to have been part of, or to be part of this
family. it's nice to have history and grounding within a community. Again, my husband's family’s from
New Orleans and he's like third generation on one side and five generations on the other side. So, he has
a similar feeling and it's, there is something very grounding about being a part of someplace. And I feel
very privileged to be part of Encinitas, [be]cause I do feel like I have a lot of invested in it and I guess has
a lot invested in me and that's, that's been nice.
Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't, I don't think we could end know a better note than that. Lizbeth
Ecke, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for giving us your perspective about your
family and giving it to this project. My name is Jake Peirce and we are signing off now.
Ecke: Great. Thank you.
Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins
10
2022-09-27
�
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Ecke, Lizbeth. Interview transcript. April 13, 2022.
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Narrator Lizbeth Ecke is the daughter of San Diego horticulturist Paul Ecke Jr., who contributed to the popularity of the poinsettia plant. Lizbeth Ecke also is on the board for the YMCA and the American Forest Exchange. In this interview, Lizbeth discusses her childhood growing up in Encinitas, CA and working alongside her father in the flower business, and her experience as a women working in a male dominated industry in comparison to her father and brother.
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Sierra Jenkins
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2022-04-13
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Businesswomen
Floriculture
Interstate 5 -- California
Poinsettias
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Encinitas (Calif.)
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Community history
History Department internship
Women's experience
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Lizbeth Ecke
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5.4 2022-04-13 Oral history of Lizbeth Ecke, April 13, 2022 SC027-12 00:52:05 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Businesswomen Encinitas (Calif.) Floriculture Interstate 5--California Poinsettias Lizbeth Ecke Jacob Peirce mp4 EckeLizbeth_PeirceJake_2022-04-13.mp4 1:|11(14)|17(11)|23(7)|33(15)|38(54)|40(105)|50(11)|51(68)|51(180)|55(7)|69(11)|74(5)|83(28)|90(58)|90(166)|103(13)|122(2)|128(15)|133(75)|143(7)|162(15)|168(12)|173(56)|173(155)|178(91)|178(233)|186(13)|192(51)|192(185)|195(13)|207(42)|211(37)|215(5)|226(51)|229(7)|238(16)|248(71)|248(188)|248(319)|256(6)|260(15)|267(9)|269(82)|279(3)|281(69)|300(2)|305(40)|305(171)|305(309)|305(433)|316(16)|322(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/20bc80c8465484930147a93d0aa89119.mp4 Other video English 30 Introduction / Growing up and childhood So, good evening. My name is Jacob Pierce. I am a first year graduate student at Cal State San Marcos in the history program. And this is part of a series documenting historical figures, impactful figures in North County, San Diego. Today I'm speaking with, Lizbeth Ecke. And, thank you for being here. Let's start real general, real broad. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you were born? Growing up, just general information like that. Lizbeth Ecke recounts her childhood experience growing up in Encinitas, CA where her family were important to the development of the small town beach city. In discussing her grandparents role in advocating for Downtown Encinitas, the local history of the small San Diego city and the push back that came with it is revealed. Childhood ; College ; Community ; Downtown Encinitas ; Encinitas ; Family legacy ; Farming ; Flower industry ; Grade school ; Highway ; San Diego ; Small town Downtown Encinitas and early development ; Growing up in Encinitas ; History of Encinitas ; Lizbeth Ecke's experience as a child growing up in the Ecke family ; Local history 33.0370° N, 117.2920° W 17 The general GPS coordinates of Encinitas, CA which is now known for its beautiful beaches and luxury resorts. 385 Inspiration as a woman in business Did you, speaking of your mother and your grandmother, what inspiration, if any, did you take from em’, in your personal life going forward as a professional woman, as someone who growing up in this family, did you take any lessons from them? And, and if so, how did you kind of, feel it, that you represented the family in that way? Lizbeth Ecke describes the work of her mother and grandmother in San Diego along with their accomplishments. Her deep dive into their history explains how she was inspired by their hard work. In addition to this, Lizbeth Ecke introduces the Poinsettia business that her family is well known for. Poinsettia business ; Professional woman ; San Diego State ; Solana Beach Presbyterian Church ; Tijuana ; Volunteer work ; Women in Encinitas Familial bonds ; Family ; Gender roles ; The Ecke family ; The endeavors of the Ecke women ; The experience of women in a family business ; Women in the Ecke family 32.7774° N, 117.0714° W 17 San Diego State University. Lizbeth Ecke mentions the university a few times as this was her mother's alma mater. 612 The Press focuses on the men / Supporting organizations Pierce: Most of the press that I was able to read, mostly focuses on the men, in your family. Was that frustrating for, < ; unintelligible> ; you can go ahead and answer if you got something. Ecke: Well, I mean, I don't know that I think that it's, pretty standard for a, certainly for my grandparent’s generation and for my parent’s generation. That’s what you did, even if a, a wife or whatever was very involved in a business, you generally look to the husband for, you know, and they were the person that got all the glory and that's just the way our society has been set up. In this generation my brother probably has had more publicity than I have just because he is the one that owned the Poinsettia Business. And so that naturally, I mean, he got a lot of press just from own owning the Poinsettia Business. He's also probably much more, comfortable in front of the camera because he's been doing it for so long. So, when we are both in a situation and somebody wants one of us to speak, I will defer to him. Lizbeth Ecke addresses why the Press focused on the men in her family over the women when highlighting her family's business. The conversation then pivots to focusing on her mother and grandmother again as she explores the organizations they chose to support and why. Business roles ; Family business ; Family roles ; Functions ; Spotlight ; Support Gender disparity in the Press ; Gender roles in family business ; Planned Parenthood ; Women supporting organizations ; YMCA 32.7157° N, 117.1611° W 17 970 Let's talk about Poinsettias Pierce: I never grew up in a family that had like any sort of a business or anything like that. My parents were teachers. But were you interested in horticulture at all? Were you interested in flower, like any sort of growing flowers? Ecke: So, it was, you know, and I had done a lot of work for, I worked in the tissue culture lab at the ranch. I worked in the greenhouses many summers. I, we, all three of us grew up there was never a family vacation that we took that we didn't go visit greenhouse customers wherever it was in the world. And when I had studied overseas in Mexico and in Germany, I've gone and visited flower customers on my own. So, I was involved with it. But I also knew that wasn't gonna be the career I was going to choose. I mean, and not that anybody said I couldn't, but you know, my grandfather's name was Paul Ecke Sr. In this portion, Lizbeth Ecke discusses her involvement and knowledge of horticulture. Her knowledge stems from her family business with the poinsettia's which led to her using her planting skills during her studies in Mexico and Germany. Even though she only has a minor in horticulture, paired with her degree in business she was able to really entrench herself in the family business. Lizbeth Ecke's expertise was useful on different board of directors which was a space mostly occupied by men. Bussiness ; Farming ; Flowers ; Germany ; Greenhouses ; Horticulture ; Mexico ; Paul Ecke Jr. ; Paul Ecke Sr. ; Paule Ecke III ; Plants ; Poinsettia ; Poinsettia Ranch American Forest Exchange ; Floral culture business ; Studying overseas ; Subject of studies ; Women working in horticulture 32.7157° N, 117.1611° W 17 San Diego, CA 1229 Experience on the board of directors Pierce: You've mentioned multiple arenas where you are on the board of directors or even the chairman of the board and stuff like that. Have you < ; affirmative> ; as a woman faced any pushback, any, any friction, from people when you take these kind of leadership positions? Ecke: Well, most of the things that I've been on, I would say, well, no, I mean, when I was first, went on to the, American Forest Exchange Board, I was the first, I wasn't the very first woman that had ever been on the board, but I was the first woman to be on the board for quite some time. And I would, I will say that it was probably for the other men then that were on the board. My father had just recently passed away and he had been chairman of the board. And then I, took over, I took his seat on the board. So I think that, and I was much younger than the majority of the men on the board that isn't necessarily the case now, but it was then, which is almost 20 years ago now. I think that they initially had, they didn't have an issue with me being on the board, but I think that they were kind of surprised that I had an opinion or, that I took issue with some of the things that they, wanted to do. Lizbeth Ecke recounts her experience when she became chairman of the American Forest Exchange after her father passed away. In comparison, her experience on the board for the YMCA was vastly different since women had occupied this space long before her. Lizbeth Ecke also recounts a time when she was younger working for her family's business where a customer was demanding to work with her father instead of her. American Forest Exchange ; board ; board of directors ; Chairman ; frustrated ; status-quo ; UCSD ; women ; YMCA AFE chairman ; American Forest Exchange ; San Diego local history ; Women in business ; Women's experience in male dominated spaces 1807 Missing old Encinitas Pierce: How has it been watching it grow over the years? Do you miss old Encinitas somewhat? Do you, you wish that things were a little bit different? Do you, do you just enjoy seeing time and things progress? Like what, what is your viewpoint on that? Ecke: Well, yeah, I mean, if, if Encinitas could be the Encinitas that I grew up in, I thought that that was fabulous. If I was really living in that would, I think is, is as fabulous, you know, you get nostalgic about things. But I could, when I was growing up and I had my horse, I could ride my horse down Encinitas Blvd. all the way to the beach and ride my horse on the beach with my other friends who had horses. And, it was you-- < ; unintelligible> ; So, I mean, there's things like that, that I'm nostalgic for. But places change. I mean, you can't expect things to not change. And, for the most part, I think that the way Encinitas has changed is pretty good given, you know, the options. I mean, there wasn't, there isn't a way that Encinitas was gonna stay the way that it was, but it was a lovely place to grow up. Lizbeth Ecke recounts her experience growing up in Encinitas prior to its current development. Despite her nostalgia, Lizbeth Ecke has fond memories of Encinitas but appreciates how far along the city has come. She also gives more background on how she grew up in the city as well as her siblings and the lasting effect Encinitas had on them all. Community ; Community Resource Center ; Downtown Encinitas ; Encintas Blvd. ; Horse ; Leucadia Blvd. ; Nostalgic ; Riverside ; road ; San Digueto ; Shepards ; YMCA Community ; Developing Encinitas ; Development in Encinitas ; Growing up in Encinitas ; Old Encinitas ; Small town 33.0370° N, 117.2920° W 17 Encinitas, CA 2116 The Ecke Legacy in Encinitas / Going Forward Pierce: Absolutely, absolutely. We, we appreciate it. Not that I'm, I have a particular hand in it, but at the same time I, you know, as a, as a budding historian, I do appreciate < ; affirmative> ; people putting their things in the, in archives. Is it, I'm trying to figure out how I can word this… right. When you, when you've spoken about like how your grandfather advocated for the, the, the I-5 going where it, it goes and, and your father was, was, a, a large part of, of the, the beginnings of Cal State San Marcos, right? Is it, do you ever sit and think like, oh wow. Like my family has really impacted this, this area in, in many ways, like, you'd sit, be like, wow, like this is here in part because of the way that my family has kind of shaped the area. Do you ever think about that and how it like, is that an interesting thought to you or is that never occurred? The interviewer, Jacob Pierce asks about the Ecke family's direct influence on the I-5 and Downtown Influence. Lizbeth Ecke then answers and goes into more detail about her siblings and their history growing up in Encinitas. Cal State San Marcos ; charity ; community ; community resource center ; difference ; Downtown Encinitas ; Ecke ; Encinitas ; family ; foundation ; I-5 ; name ; park ; press ; YMCA Family influences ; Longstanding presence in the community ; Making a difference ; Sense of community ; The development of Downtown Encinitas 33.0370° N, 117.2920° W 17 Encinitas, CA 2584 Proudest achievement / Closing comments Pierce: Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say has been, your proudest accomplishment? Whether it's in North County or just in general, what, what are you most proud of and in your career, in your life in general? Ecke: Well, I mean the most obvious answer would be my children. I mean, I've raised two children that are self-sufficient and, you know, both graduated from college. My son's getting his PhD now and, you know, they're supporting themselves and that in of itself is an accomplishment as a parent. I don't, I don't know that-- Ecke: There is a given thing that I could say that I would point to. I know I'm happy that I have been able to be part of the family business in a relevant way. It was something that was very important to my mother because she didn't always feel seen. And so she fought very hard for my sister and myself to be seen and to be heard. And I think it was, something that she was very proud of when, she had daughters that were involved and had a say in what was happening. And so I feel accomplished that I fulfilled something that was important to my mother. As the interview wraps up, Lizbeth Ecke recalls her personal accomplishments as well as her family's. Considering the Ecke influence in Encinitas and San Diego as a whole, she goes into more detail about the papers her parents and grandparents left behind. Although it consists of receipts and lists these small details are important for historical purposes. Lizbeth Ecke also goes further into the process of what the Ecke papers consist of and donating them to Cal State San Marcos. Achievements ; children ; Ecke papers ; family business ; important ; mother ; papers ; proud ; ranch Documenting history ; Family papers ; Pride in their accomplishments ; The legacy of the Ecke family 29.8833° N, 97.9414° W 17 San Marcos, CA Oral History Narrator Lizbeth Ecke is the daughter of San Diego horticulturist Paul Ecke Jr., who contributed to the popularity of the poinsettia plant. Lizbeth Ecke also is on the board for the YMCA and the American Forest Exchange. In this interview, Lizbeth discusses her childhood growing up in Encinitas, CA and working alongside her father in the flower business, and her experience as a women working in a male dominated industry in comparison to her father and brother. Peirce: My name is Jacob Peirce. I am a first year graduate student at Cal State San Marcos in the history program. And this is part of a series documenting historical figures, impactful figures in North County, San Diego. Today I' ; m speaking with, Lizbeth Ecke. And, thank you for being here. Let' ; s start real general, real broad. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you were born? Growing up, just general information like that. Ecke: I was born here in San Diego, born raised in Encinitas hold, < ; cough> ; pardon me. I grew up in the same house that my father grew up in. I went to the same elementary school and high school that my father went to. So I was friends with the children of the, some of the people that my father went to high school with. So pretty entrenched in Encinitas, California. I did move away for college and work for about 13 years, but other than that, I pretty much lived in Encinitas my entire life. Peirce: That' ; s awesome. And you said that you went to the same the same school, you lived in the same house and your family was pretty established at that point within the community. Was it difficult growing up with the kind of expectations, of being in your family like that? Ecke: There may have been individual instances, but no, not really. I mean, Encinitas was still a pretty small town when, I was growing up. I mean, Interstate 5 didn' ; t even go through till I was about 11 years old. Most people were in flower farming like our family was. And, so I mean, people probably knew my name without knowing me, but, and that probably ended up mostly being good. But, so no, I mean I would say later on there have been challenging times when we, as a family have wanted to do things and we' ; ve gotten a lot of bad press. I mean, I know that my mother and grandmother, had a harder time than I ever remember having. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: Dealing with, harder in the sense of, people being rude to them or mean, or those kinds of things. But I can' ; t say that I remember much of any of that. Peirce: Was there specific reasons for that treatment that they received? Do you remember them saying anything about that? Ecke: About, well, I know that there was a newspaper in town called The Coast Dispatch, that the man who owned it really, he didn' ; t like our family. And I mean, I' ; ve heard various stories about why he didn' ; t, the one that seems to have made the most sense to me, but I don' ; t really know whether it' ; s the real reason or not is because he owned a lot of, real estate right in Downtown Encinitas. And when they were putting through I-5, the original plan was to just run it along, down the coast highway. And, as it ended up being in some other, places farther north of here, and my grandfather was one of the people who fought pretty hard to say, let' ; s not destroy all of the downtowns of all of these, you know, Carlsbad and Solana Beach and Del Mar and Encinitas. Let' ; s put it inland a little ways and keep our downtowns. And my grandfather was on the winning side of that. I mean, it wasn' ; t because my grandfather or grandparents owned any land, particularly in the right of way of where I-5 ended up. They just, he just thought it was made more sense. So he fought for that and again, was on the winning side. And so the guy who owned The Coast Dispatch was pissed off because he was expecting to make all this money from selling all of his right of way in Downtown Encinitas. There may have been other reasons that maybe that, you know, he was a powerful man in town. My grandfather was a powerful man in town and they maybe just didn' ; t like each other, I don' ; t know. But, you know, I know that my grandmother, was treated poorly at times, by people that, you know, she was somebody who really cared about and, tried to be helpful. And, you know, people that during the depression that needed food, bringing food to the school and doing things like that, and there was any number of people that didn' ; t want her help because she was an Ecke and that was painful for her. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I can imagine like that' ; s a wild thing to think about. Did you, speaking of your mother and your grandmother, what inspiration, if any, did you take from [th]em, in your personal life going forward as a professional woman, as someone who growing up in this family, did you take any lessons from them? And, and if so, how did you kind of, feel it, that you represented the family in that way? Ecke: Well, you know, my grandmother got married at 19 and had her first kid at 20, so she didn' ; t ever, she didn' ; t have anything more than a high school education. My mother did go to San Diego State and, did have a degree. But both of them, along with, my father, maybe a little less, my grandfather was very big < ; unintelligible> ; [into] giving back. And it was always something that my parents talked about, but they also, they didn' ; t just talk about it. They did it. And they, my grandmother was very involved with the Solana Beach Presbyterian Church and did a lot out of help through that, there was an orphanage down in Tijuana that she was, very supportive of. And I remember her when I was a child, her loading up her car and barreling on down to Tijuana to bring them whatever it was that she had in her car that week or month or whatever it was. My mother was very, was involved in lot of things. She was always on the PTA. We were all in 4H growing up and she was a 4H leader. She volunteered for children' ; s hospital. She later on when us kids weren' ; t at home or were, you know, didn' ; t need as much attention all the time she was involved with Planned Parenthood, she was a huge Planned Parenthood supporter. She, I' ; m trying to think of the other, Neurosciences Institute. I think it was called G < ; unintelligible> ; I can' ; t remember the name of it, but she was constantly involved with lots of different organizations, voices for children. She was very involved with San Diego State, which is where she went to school with the library at San Diego State. So I think that what I took away from that was that, it' ; s important to give back and everybody can give back, but if you are somebody of, means and, are known within your community, it' ; s even more important to, to give back that that' ; s a commitment, an obligation really. And, I heard about it growing up and I saw it growing up. And so that' ; s probably what I took from it more than, I mean, took from them more than anything was that they didn' ; t just talk the talk, they walked the walk. Peirce: Yeah. I was about to, I was about to ask you about the, whether that was something that was, verbally taught to you. Like, if it was like, " ; Hey, this is what we do," ; or you just kind of learn from example in regards to that, but you kind of, you kind of answered that. Ecke: Yeah. Peirce: Most of the press that I was able to read, mostly focuses on the men, in your family. Was that frustrating for, < ; unintelligible> ; you can go ahead and answer if you got something. Ecke: Well, I mean, I don' ; t know that I think that it' ; s, pretty standard for a, certainly for my grandparent' ; s generation and for my parent' ; s generation. That' ; s what you did, even if a, a wife or whatever was very involved in a business, you generally look to the husband for, you know, and they were the person that got all the glory and that' ; s just the way our society has been set up. In this generation my brother probably has had more publicity than I have just because he is the one that owned the Poinsettia Business. And so that naturally, I mean, he got a lot of press just from own owning the Poinsettia Business. He' ; s also probably much more, comfortable in front of the camera because he' ; s been doing it for so long. So, when we are both in a situation and somebody wants one of us to speak, I will defer to him.So, so that to some degree would be my fault, for not taking the spotlight when I could all the time. But yes, I mean, I think that just as a woman in society, it is sometimes frustrating, to have grown up and seen all the work that my grandmother and my mother did for the family business. And when you talk about the family business, you don' ; t really hear much about them. I mean, some of that' ; s getting righted a little bit, now, but it' ; s certainly they didn' ; t ever get any, any < ; unintelligible> ; whatever they, nobody called them out as doing great things when they were doing them. Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. Which is, which is a shame, honestly. < ; Unintelligible> ; I guess kind of where I want to go with that though, you brought up some of the functions that your grandmother and your mother and that you have supported. Right? How do you decide what to support? Is there any-- is it really up to you? What you support? Do you speak to people in the family just to make sure that the family name is doing kind of-- is there like any collaboration or is it, whatever you decide to kind of support at that time? Ecke: No, I think that, I mean, I, I haven' ; t ever felt like if there was something that I wanted to support that anybody had any issue with it. I mean, maybe just being part of the family, there is a sense of, I suppose if I ever thought that there was something I wanted to get involved with that might create a problem, I would probably have a conversation. My brother and sister and I are pretty close and have good relationships. So, I wouldn' ; t expect that any of us would get involved with something that we thought how had an edge to it without first, at least, telling others. But you know, what I' ; ve been involved with has changed over the years when my kids were school age, I was very involved with their schools. I have, you know, I' ; m involved with, YMCA a that' ; s named after my grandmother. I was involved with it a number of years ago. And there, if you read anything about me, it' ; s probably how I got myself kicked off of the board, but, < ; laugh> ; the man that was running the, San Diego, the corporate Y for San Diego, he, didn' ; t renew his contract and now there' ; s somebody new. So then, so now I' ; m back on the board. < ; laugh> ; , I' ; m all, I mean, I also am very supportive of Planned Parenthood, not to the degree my mother was, my mother was on the board. That might be something I' ; d be willing to do down the road. So I think that, that what I' ; m involved with evolves as whatever else is happening in my life or around me. Peirce: Absolutely. And then that makes sense, right? Like, you know, you' ; re not, it' ; s not like you give, give a dollar one day and then you' ; re just, you' ; re guaranteed to give it the rest of your time. Right. It really kind of focuses as your, as your life moves from place to place < ; affirmative> ; and from stage to stage, you know, as I, you know, I' ; m a new dad, I never would' ; ve thought about all the things I do with my kid and donating and doing stuff for that kind of stuff that prior to having him right. Every stage, it kind of takes you to a different-- Ecke: Well, this isn' ; t, it isn' ; t in your field of vision. Peirce: Absolutely. And that' ; s understandable. Right. We only can see here to here. Right. We can' ; t see the full picture unless you' ; re in it sometimes. Do you mind if I pivot to, to the Poinsettias? I just have a few questions on that. Ecke: Absolutely. Peirce: I never grew up in a family that had like any sort of a business or anything like that. My parents were teachers. But were you interested in horticulture at all? Were you interested in flower, like any sort of growing flowers? Ecke: Well, yeah. I mean, the house that I grew up in it was right in the middle of the Poinsettia [fields]. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: So it was, you know, and I had done a lot of work for, I worked in the tissue culture lab at the ranch. I worked in the greenhouses many summers. I, we, all three of us grew up there was never a family vacation that we took that we didn' ; t go visit greenhouse customers where ever it was in the world. And, when I had studied overseas in Mexico and in Germany, I' ; ve gone and visited flower customers on my own. So I was involved with it. But I also knew that wasn' ; t gonna be the career I was going to choose. I mean, and not that anybody said I couldn' ; t, but, you know, my grandfather' ; s name was Paul Ecke Sr. My father was Paul Ecke Jr. and my brother' ; s Pauly III and my name isn' ; t Paul < ; laugh> ; . So, and that being said, my sister and I were had ownership interest in the ranch as much as my brother did, but we also made a determination, I don' ; t know, 30 years ago or more that, the ranch really needs to have a singular head of it, it was not a businesses that was gonna get managed very well with a, you know, three people trying to do it. So we sold our interest to my brother and that made sense. I was on the board of directors for the ranch, so I was still involved. And my brother and I, I mean, any time my brother had big decisions to make, he would talk to me. So I may have not had my name on the company, but I did feel very involved with it. And you know there' ; s a Los Angeles flower market where we would sell poinsettias every year. And I did that as did my brother and my sister and now I' ; m chairman of the board of that flower market. And so I had been involved in the flower business pretty much all my life, one way or another, I wasn' ; t the face of the Poinsettia Ranch. Peirce: But you enjoyed working with the flowers you enjoyed working with your hands? Ecke: Oh yeah, no, absolutely. You know, and now we, as a family have the flower fields in Carlsbad. So I' ; m still, involved with, well, not growing the flowers, but involved with the floral culture business, and being on the board of the American Forest Exchange. I am attuned to what' ; s going on within that part of the sector of the world and I like it and I always have. Peirce: Awesome, awesome. I can' ; t even keep plants alive in my own house, so that just having an entire farm stresses me out just the thought of it. Ecke: < ; laugh> ; Oh, well, I' ; ve never run a farm. So that, that-- Peirce: Yeah, that' ; s fair. That' ; s fair. < ; laugh> ; Ecke: I do, I did have a minor in horticulture in undergraduate school, but that was, as far as I went with that. Peirce: What was your major, if you don' ; t mind me asking? Ecke: It was business. Peirce: Business. Ecke: And then I got an MBA in real estate and finance, so-- Peirce: Absolutely. You' ; ve mentioned multiple arenas where you are on the board of directors or even the chairman of the board and stuff like that. Have you as a woman faced any pushback, any friction from people when you take these kind of leadership positions? Ecke: Well, most of the things that I' ; ve been on, I would say, well, no, I mean, when I was first, went on to the, American Forest Exchange Board, I was the first, I wasn' ; t the very first woman that had ever been on the board, but I was the first woman to be on the board for quite some time. And I would, I will say that it was probably for the other men then that were on the board. My father had just recently passed away and he had been chairman of the board. And then I, took over, I took his seat on the board. So I think that, and I was much younger than the majority of the men on the board that isn' ; t necessarily the case now, but it was then, which is almost 20 years ago now. I think that they initially had, they didn' ; t have an issue with me being on the board, but I think that they were kind of surprised that I had an opinion or, that I took issue with some of the things that they, wanted to do. Or so I wouldn' ; t see, say that I ever felt like they were trying to figure out a way to get me off the board, but I do think that there were some times when they were frustrated that I wasn' ; t just playing along with whatever they wanted to do. Other boards that I' ; m on the YMCA board there' ; s been women on that board long before I was ever on it. And, so I never felt anything there. We have a family foundation board, that my aunt has been on for as long as I can remember. And, and I' ; ve been on it for 40 years. So really no, I mean where I had a lot of pushback when I was first came back and worked for the family, I was doing a lot of leasing and tenant improvement work and construction management. And this was back in the eighties, late eighties. And there were a lot of construction guys that really were not very excited about taking orders from, you know, a short woman or probably a woman in general, but then this little, tiny person with a high squeaky voice, I can' ; t < ; unintelligible> ; anybody absolutely wouldn' ; t do what I asked them to do. It may have just taken me be more forceful than I needed to be. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: To do that. But you know, my father was to his credit. He really promoted, my sister and myself to do whatever we wanted to, to do. And, when I, I remember one time when I was probably 15 working up in Los Angeles at the flower market over Christmas, [be]cause that' ; s the only time we would' ; ve been up there with the poinsettias. And my father put me a in charge of the phone orders. And so I remember, some big customer called and asked for my father and my father said, no, I don' ; t have time, you just deal with them. And I went back and the conversation kind of went on. And then he finally said, I want to speak with a real Ecke. And so, I then went out, I mean, [be]cause again I' ; m 14 or 15 years old and I go back out and I said, dad, he says, he' ; ll only place this order with a real Ecke. And my father said, you go back in there and said, tell him if he wants to buy poinsettias he is going to buy them from you. And he' ; s gonna give the order to you. And you are just as real of an Ecke as anybody else. And so I went back in there and told the guy and he was none too happy, but he did give me the order. So my father did things like that really, he may not have believed that when he was 20 years old. But I think that my mother did a very good job of convincing him and teaching him that he should be paying attention to his daughters as much as his son. And he did credit her with that. He would be the first one to say that he had a good relationship with his daughters because my mother taught him how to do that. Peirce: That' ; s amazing. That' ; s really awesome. Especially that, that kind of support, that young, how, how, early did you become, involved in the, in the family business? Like from as long as you can remember, or--? Ecke: Oh, I, well, I mean actually working, getting a paycheck was, you know, probably fifteen dollars. But even before that, when we were little again, our house was right there, the middle of the ranch and we' ; d go out and my father would put me to work, you know, folding, putting together pieces of different pieces of paper and stapling them and folding them to go in boxes of poinsettias that were being shipped out mostly as a way to keep me busy and out of other people' ; s way. But I mean, I was probably doing that from the time I was seven or eight years old, or he would pay us, like a penny to pick up trash, to walk around the whole ranch and pick up trash and he would pay us, I dunno,, 10 cents an hour or something ridiculous to do that. But, so always my parents were big believers in working and knowing the value of money. And my mother had grown up in a fairly poor family. Her family had moved out to California when she was 15 and lived in, government subsidized housing where UCSD [University of California San Diego] is now, they' ; d moved because my grandmother, I knew that she had, she knew, wanted her children to go to college and California back then had, still does have, a good college system, but it was virtually free. And, you know, my mother had two brothers and a sister and, you know, she went to San Diego State. She had one brother that became a doctor and another brother that became a veterinarian. And they all benefited from the school systems in, in San Diego, but that' ; s why they moved. And my mother worked a lot from whenever. I mean, from the time she could remember, so she went, they lived through being homeless during the depression and other things. So my mother brought that to the table for us in the sense of understanding that you can' ; t be wasteful, you need to think about, you know, how you spend your money. And my parents were on the same page with all of that you know, just because you have money doesn' ; t mean that you need to flaunt it or that you have to spend it all just because you have it. And it, you know, there' ; s other people that might need it more than you do, and it' ; s your responsibility to help out with that. So I feel like I got, fairly grounded in the understanding of that. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. You, you' ; ve spoken a couple times about, growing up directly on, on the ranch < ; affirmative> ; and when you were a kid, I' ; m assuming that, Encinitas was a little bit more rural than it is now, not rural, but just less developed. Ecke: Yeah. Peirce: How has it been watching it grow over the years? Do you miss old Encinitas somewhat? Do you, you wish that things were a little bit different? Do you, do you just enjoy seeing time and things progress? Like what, what is your viewpoint on that? Ecke: Well, yeah, I mean, if, if Encinitas could be the Encinitas that I grew up in, I thought that that was fabulous. If I was really living in that would, I think is, is as fabulous, you know, you get nostalgic about things. But I could, when I was growing up and I had my horse, I could ride my horse down Encinitas Blvd. all the way to the beach and ride my horse on the beach with my other friends who had horses. And, it was you-- < ; unintelligible> ; So, I mean, there' ; s things like that, that I' ; m nostalgic for. But places change. I mean, you can' ; t expect things to not change. And, for the most part, I think that the way Encinitas has changed is pretty good given, you know, the options. I mean, there wasn' ; t, there isn' ; t a way that Encinitas was gonna stay the way that it was, but it was a lovely place to grow up. I mean, I, again, I knew there was like two elementary schools and, you know, one high school. And when I went, graduated from high school, there was only one high school from Del Mar to through Encinitas. So we, all went to San Dieguito together. My high school graduating class in 1975 was the last year that we were together, [be]cause then Torrey Pines was built and they opened up Torrey Pines [High School]. So, I mean it was, it was a very close-knit community. And it was, you know, nice to know you go into a grocery store, the drug store and you know, it' ; s, somebody' ; s father that' ; s there or, you know, < ; affirmative> ; and that, that was a nice thing. And I, and I do miss that, but I suppose if that was super important to me, I could go find some other very small community that I could have that. Peirce: No, absolutely. I, I mean, I grew up in, I grew up in Riverside and in the, the eighties and nineties and I still remember driving to, to school and, running into, into, shepherds herding sheep across the road. And now every single part of that is, is track housing that they built that are, you know, the cookie cutter houses and, you know, you can get nostalgic for it, but I, I can completely understand like you, you do what you do, what, what you can with what it is. People need to live. People need houses and people need to, things grow and things change, but it was just interesting to, you know, you you' ; ve been living in that, you lived in that same house as your, as your, as your father and everything. And it' ; s just like, you know, having it grow around that is, is a interesting perspective for sure. Ecke: Definitely, it definitely is. I mean, it' ; s, it' ; s weird because now I live in that, well, we' ; ve redone the house, but I live in what was my grandparents' ; house that my grandparents built when my parents got married, they built a house and moved into the house. And then my parents moved into the house that my father grew up in. So I now live in the location, not the house anymore because we did rebuild it about 15 years ago, but to where my grandparents lived and, and it was a very different place then, because when I was growing up from my grandparents' ; house, they were half a mile off of any public road in fact when I moved into this house 30 years ago, we were still Leucadia Boulevard, didn' ; t go through. And so I was a half a mile off of any paved road. And, there the view, they had a view to the west, which we still have and a view to the east and there was nothing to the east, nothing at all. I mean, there was one light that you could see out there. And I remember that when I was a kid and now that' ; s all houses. And just, you know, my father, this is totally a, a side note, but my father was also very involved with Cal[ifornia] State [University] San Marcos and getting it started and was very enthusiastic about it, which is, part of the reason that, my brother and I decided that that' ; s what the family papers should, should go. It was, it kind of made sense because we had that connection. Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. We, we appreciate it. Not that I' ; m, I have a particular hand in it, but at the same time I, you know, as a, as a budding historian, I do appreciate < ; affirmative> ; people putting their things in the, in archives. Is it, I' ; m trying to figure out how I can word this-- right. When you, when you' ; ve spoken about like how your grandfather advocated for the, the, the I-5 going where it, it goes and, and your father was, was, a, a large part of, of the, the beginnings of Cal State San Marcos, right? Is it, do you ever sit and think like, oh wow. Like my family has really impacted this, this area in, in many ways, like, you' ; d sit, be like, wow, like this is here in part because of the way that my family has kind of shaped the area. Do you ever think about that and how it like, is that an interesting thought to you or is that never occurred? Ecke: Yeah, it, no, it is. And I mean, it' ; s something generally. I mean, I would say it' ; s a sense of pride to know that, that the, our, we didn' ; t, we as a family, didn' ; t just come here and do what we did without wanting to better our community and be involved in our community. I mean, I know that my parents and grandparents, when Encinitas was super tiny when they were here, they, there wasn' ; t anything for anybody to do after work. I mean, there just wasn' ; t anything here. So they figure out how to build a bowling alley in, in Downtown Encinitas. So people had a place to go versus I guess, just going to a bar or something. I mean that there was someplace something else to do. And, those kinds of things, I mean, there' ; s nothing that there' ; s no rules or laws or anything that says that you have to do that, but if you' ; re gonna be part of a community, it' ; s nice to know that your family helped build that community. So it, yeah, it is something that I think about, at times when, you know, there' ; s, and there' ; s enough things named after our family, there' ; s a park in Encinitas. And then there' ; s the YMCA and there' ; s various other things that, remind me and maybe the community of what we' ; ve done. I would say that it is very different now than it was even 20 years ago. I mean, 20 years ago, I could, if I said my name was Ecke, pretty much anybody in Encinitas would' ; ve heard the name, they would, I mean, they might not know anything, but they would' ; ve heard the name. And, that isn' ; t necessarily the case now, and that' ; s not a bad thing, but it is, we are a much, larger and diverse community now. So, our family doesn' ; t play the same kind of role as it used to. I mean, we still are very supportive of the community and we have a family foundation and most of the money, it' ; s not a huge found[ation], but most of the money that comes out of that does get invested in, local charities, things like the YMCA or the community resource center or things like that. So we still are very involved, but again, because the community has grown so much, we' ; re just not as big a, a part of it, which that' ; s a good thing, [be]cause there' ; s a lot more people out there that are also being supportive of things that need to be supported. Peirce: Absolutely. Given, your longstanding, presence in the community, as people have come in, have you. worked with other people who have tried to make a difference in the community? Have you tried to foster those kinds of, any sort of other, like, charitable services or anything like that? Has anyone come to you and been like, how do I start this? How do I do this and kinda look to you and have, have you mentored anyone in that regard? Ecke: No, I don' ; t think that I could say that I' ; ve done that. And I don' ; t think that I would certainly know how to tell anybody to start something. I mean, I' ; ve been involved with any number of things, like the Community Resource Center and the YMCA and grower school and any number of things. And so I' ; ve met a lot of other people within the community and I mean, the people that tend to volunteer and give money is just like almost anything in life. You' ; ve got, you know, 20% of the people doing 80% of the work or giving or whatever. I mean, it is, you see the same people over and over again. Peirce: Absolutely. What else do you, where do you see your role in the family moving forward? Where do you see your family moving forward in the community, given that you' ; ve said that it, as the community has grown, you' ; ve kind of, do you still see your family as a vital part of the community you have going forward? Ecke: No, definitely. My brother lives in Encinitas. I live in Encinitas, you know, we both raised our families in Encinitas. My sister lives in North Carolina, and we both still work in the family business. And I don' ; t see that really changing at some point in the future. Some of the kids, my kids, my brother' ; s kids, my sister' ; s kids may wanna come back and be part of the family business. At some points somebody' ; s gonna have to take over things from our, my generation of, people, but pretty much all of those in their twenties. So they' ; re still figuring out what to do with their lives. But, I mean, my father was involved with in the community and pretty much until the day he died and my mother until her Alzheimer' ; s got too bad, was involved with the community. So I never saw my parents just say, okay, I' ; m done now. And I' ; m gonna, you know, go just have fun all day every day and not be involved with my community. So, and my husband grew up in a similar type of in environment. So I don' ; t see us just, you know, retiring and doing, not being involved. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say has been, your proudest accomplishment? Whether it' ; s in North County or just in general, what, what are you most proud of and in your career, in your life in general? Ecke: Well, I mean the most obvious answer would be my children. I mean, I' ; ve raised two children that are self-sufficient and, you know, both graduated from college. My son' ; s getting his PhD now and, you know, they' ; re supporting themselves and that in of itself is an accomplishment as a parent. I don' ; t, I don' ; t know that-- There is a given thing that I could say that I would point to. I know I' ; m happy that I have been able to be part of the family business in a relevant way. It was something that was very important to my mother because she didn' ; t always feel seen. And so she fought very hard for my sister and myself to be seen and to be heard. And I think it was, something that she was very proud of when, she had daughters that were involved and had a say in what was happening. And so I feel accomplished that I fulfilled something that was important to my mother. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: But I don' ; t know that there' ; s a specific, or that I can think of a specific thing that I' ; ve fought for and won on or something. Peirce: I mean it is a difficult question unless you clambered up Everest or something, it' ; s like, well, you know, like I was just curious if there was anything specifically, you' ; re like, oh yeah. You know, like, I won the World Cup or something, but you know what I mean? Ecke: No, none of those things. Peirce: Same here, so it' ; s, yeah. I had one question I did have about the papers that you donated. Was it important for you and your family to have someplace, public for repository of that nature? Or what was, what was the reasoning behind that and why was that important to you guys? Ecke: Well, my mother was a big history buff. That probably was part of it, but-- It just, there was a hundred years of history of our family. Because you know, my grandfather, my grandparents first came down here in the early 1920s, and bought land. And Encinitas was basically a railroad station at that time. And was really one of the founding families. And there was, lots of records because we lived on the ranch, and we had all these various barns and buildings. I don' ; t think much of anything ever got thrown away because you didn' ; t have to throw it away. So there are, you know, receipt books and things from back in 1926, you know, and, I will say that my brother did a yeoman' ; s job when, after he had sold the ranch property and sold the business, he spent a year going through all of those records and consolidating and organizing, a hundred year' ; s worth of stuff. And that was a huge job. And during that time we talked about, well, okay. I mean, it didn' ; t seem right to just throw it away. I mean, but what do you do with it? I mean, that is really the question of what are the choices. So, we talked to various people there and I should remember his name, somebody who is a history professor there at Cal State San Marcos that was also on the board of the, historical society here in Encinitas. And we met with him, and I think it may have been his suggestion that we go and talk to the librarian out there. The other thing that we thought about was, San Diego State, because we had a connection there with my mother, my father went to Ohio state, so that wasn' ; t gonna make sense. I mean, but, you know, Cal State San Marco was here and in North County and we had a connection with it. And so that seemed to make the most sense because it just didn' ; t feel right to just go rent a warehouse and put it in there who was ever gonna do anything with it. And, you know, I think that there is a wealth of knowledge in history, even if it' ; s just mundane things that, you know, receipt books from back in 1926, and you can see what a bag of flower cost or whatever. I mean, you' ; re a historian. And then those are the kinds of things that people can look back on and get real information about what life was like. And you know Cal State San Marcos was the one that was really venturing into new territory because they didn' ; t have any, we were kind of the first one. We were all kinda learning together as to what this meant. I mean, we didn' ; t, I mean, we knew that families gave papers to various learning institutions. I didn' ; t ever know anybody personally who had, or, you know, what, like that really meant. So it' ; s been a cool learning experience. Peirce: Oh, absolutely. As, like the idea of you were saying, like, we didn' ; t know what to do with it. I was just like, in my head, I' ; m like, please don' ; t throw it away, even though I know you didn' ; t, like, I was just like, don' ; t do it. < ; laugh> ; Well, as we wrap up here, is there anything about you, your life, your family, that you feel like I, we haven' ; t touched on that you kind of wanna talk about today? Ecke: I don' ; t know. There probably is, but nothing that is, jumping, to mind right now. Yeah, I mean, it' ; s been a fun ride. I don' ; t think it' ; s over. I feel very privileged to have been part of, or to be part of this family. it' ; s nice to have history and grounding within a community. Again, my husband' ; s family' ; s from New Orleans and he' ; s like third generation on one side and five generations on the other side. So, he has a similar feeling and it' ; s, there is something very grounding about being a part of someplace. And I feel very privileged to be part of Encinitas, [be]cause I do feel like I have a lot of invested in it and I guess has a lot invested in me and that' ; s, that' ; s been nice. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I don' ; t, I don' ; t think we could end know a better note than that. Lizbeth Ecke, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for giving us your perspective about your family and giving it to this project. My name is Jake Peirce and we are signing off now. Ecke: Great. Thank you. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you have questions regarding usage of this oral history. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EckeLizbeth_PeirceJake_2022-04-13.xml EckeLizbeth_PeirceJake_2022-04-13.xml
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Ecke, Lizbeth. Interview April 13, 2022
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Narrator Lizbeth Ecke is the daughter of San Diego horticulturist Paul Ecke Jr., who contributed to the popularity of the poinsettia plant. Lizbeth Ecke also is on the board for the YMCA and the American Forest Exchange. In this interview, Lizbeth discusses her childhood growing up in Encinitas, CA and working alongside her father in the flower business, and her experience as a women working in a male dominated industry in comparison to her father and brother.
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SC027-12
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Businesswomen
Floriculture
Interstate 5 -- California
Poinsettias
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2022-04-13
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video
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Lizbeth Ecke
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Jacob Peirce
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Encinitas (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos
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English
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Lizbeth Ecke
Community history
History Department internship
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Jennifer Ho
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Louis Adamsel
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.xml
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5.4 Adamsel, Louis. Interview May 28th, 2021 SC027-08 1:57:56 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm San Marcos (Calif.) ; Watts (Los Angeles, Calif.) ; Moreno Valley (Calif.) ; California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center ; California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated ; California State University San Marcos -- Students ; California State University San Marcos -- Staff ; Black experience in America ; Civil rights ; Student Success Louis Adamsel Jennifer Ho mp4 AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.mp4 1:|15(16)|34(9)|51(3)|61(10)|76(11)|87(9)|100(3)|109(9)|119(11)|132(13)|146(3)|157(4)|167(18)|178(8)|188(5)|198(5)|215(18)|226(9)|237(4)|246(12)|266(10)|276(8)|287(15)|300(11)|310(13)|321(5)|333(13)|345(13)|353(12)|361(12)|374(9)|394(4)|404(17)|417(13)|428(17)|442(3)|452(12)|465(4)|476(3)|492(4)|502(17)|515(4)|528(6)|538(8)|549(9)|560(14)|569(4)|582(4)|592(14)|602(17)|612(13)|626(13)|639(6)|649(6)|662(4)|673(7)|683(12)|698(14)|709(4)|720(13)|731(12)|747(4)|765(13)|777(3)|787(12)|800(10)|811(12)|822(9)|833(6)|842(5)|851(9)|860(17)|872(8)|883(4)|897(3)|905(11)|915(10)|930(11)|948(14)|959(14)|970(9)|985(5)|994(13)|1011(3)|1025(6)|1035(11)|1045(13)|1060(15)|1071(16)|1081(9)|1090(16)|1106(4)|1117(6)|1128(17)|1137(12)|1147(8)|1156(6)|1167(16)|1178(10)|1192(5)|1201(10)|1213(9)|1220(12)|1229(11)|1239(3)|1253(15)|1267(12)|1278(3)|1292(12)|1303(4)|1313(4)|1329(5)|1348(6)|1360(12)|1377(8)|1398(4)|1407(16)|1423(4) Undefined 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6467aaeae0fa754e1c7c8115191c77ae.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 46 Childhood and early education experience 0 140 Developing an understanding of Blackness 0 415 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence 0 636 Comparing lived experiences in Georgia, Los Angeles, and choosing Cal State San Marcos 0 1249 Adamsel's relationship with the Black Student Center 0 1597 Leaders on the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes 0 1899 Visions for the Black Student Center at its inception and its current mission 0 2132 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation 0 2362 Pushback to the creation of the Black Student Center 0 3084 Attending the The Black Student Center Grand Opening 0 3085 Attending the The Black Student Center Grand Opening and continuing levels of support after the BSC Opening 0 3873 The Black Student Center's impact on the campus community and on Adamsel personally 0 4493 Behind the scenes stories 0 5525 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements 0 6710 Adamsel's thoughts on the Black Student Center Oral History Project 0 oral history In this interview, Louis Adamsel speaks on his time as an undergraduate student at California State University San Marcos, aspects of his life as a student leader, his experience as a Black student and, later, as a staff member. Adamsel discusses his experience advocating for the opening of the Black Student Center and the purpose the BSC serves to students, including the necessity of having a variety of resources in order to retain underserved students. He also speaks on mentorships and partnerships, both within the Black community and across identities and spaces. Jennifer Ho: All right. Today is Friday, May 28th, 2021, at ten o seven a.m. I’m Jennifer Ho, archivist for Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, and today I’m interviewing Louis Adamsel for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Students Center and the CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Due to the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic, this interview is being conducted virtually. Louis, thanks for being here with me today. How are you doing? Louis Adamsel: I’m doing lovely. Great to be here. Thank you for the invite. Ho: Yeah. All right. So, let’s get right to it. Tell me about your childhood. Where were you born? Where did you grow up? Adamsel: So, where I was born and ultimately where I grew up are two different places. I was born and I spent early part of my childhood in Watts, California, Watts, Los Angeles, so beautiful place. Got early experiences of education there. Just family, very beautiful place. But from Los Angeles, Watts, Los Angeles, we ended up moving to the Inland Empire, Marino Valley. And that was more desert-type. It was hotter but it was a great place to learn, grow up. And that’s where a majority of my childhood friends are from, and I still have family there to this day. Ho: Okay. Your parents still live in Marino Valley? Adamsel: Yeah. My guardian. I was actually raised by my aunt, so— Ho: Okay. Adamsel: —yeah. My aunt, yes, she still stays out there. Ho: All right. All right. Thank you. And so, did you go through high school in Marino Valley then? Adamsel: Yeah. I went to Rancho Verde High. (chuckles) Home of the Mustangs. I graduated back then, about 2012. So, almost 10 years ago, but— Ho: Okay. Adamsel: —but it was a lovely time. Ho: All right. Great. Thank you. Tell me, how did you come to your understanding of Blackness? Adamsel: I think I came to my understanding of Blackness just due to my environment. Like I said, I was born in Watts, Los Angeles. And I know my aunt worked in the school systems out there. And so, from early on, being close to schools, it was always great. I don’t know. I always was around Black people: my cousins, sisters, everything. I think that was just normal to me, Blackness. But then I think the biggest piece about Blackness was just about, when I was younger, I used to love reading. And so, with that comes history, learning about who you are in relation to the world. And the earliest bits of history was, I think, elementary school. But I can remember—it was 102nd Street School and I think there was a ceremony rededicating the name to Florence Griffith Joiner Elementary School. And so, right then, there was the history of a Black track star, one of the greatest female athletes. And boom! And my interest just—that started it. But through reading, through writing, through understanding people, through understanding different cultures, if you want to do anything in the world in relation to other people, I think the biggest piece is understanding that relation to yourself and where you come from and, ultimately, how the world perceives you. And especially being from Los Angeles and even understanding whether it’s relationships to police, understanding relationships with low-income communities, whether or not you understand it all entirely when you’re young, you can see differences. You can understand people and places where you might not see a specific race in a certain area, but you might see them everywhere else. And then, you put the two and two together at a young age. And I think through education and through reading and through history, you can sort of understand a little bit better. But, yeah, I feel like I always knew. (chuckles) Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Through experience and learning. Adamsel: Yeah. Exactly. Ho: (several words unintelligible) Definitely. You mentioned that you did a lot of reading. Was reading something that you were interested in on your own, or did your aunt encourage you to read? Or was this all through school? Adamsel: I think reading was something that I did on my own a lot because I ultimately enjoyed it. I think it was peaceful and it fit, once you understand letters and the relationships, it was like figuring out a puzzle for me. I know my aunt, growing up in the household, reading was encouraged. Also having—I remember I would have older siblings and there would be scholastic book things, and every student reads at a specific level. And I had a sister who was three years older than me, and I would pick up, sometimes, her books from school. And I would take her readings just to read them because I would get bored if I was reading something or I finished series. But I was always in the library, always reading, and always searching for whether it was non-fiction, fiction. I loved it. And I still do. But I feel like, when I was younger, I think I used that as a way to—I like being by myself reading more than playing video games. And it shows in my skills today. (chuckles) Ho: Okay. That’s great. As a librarian, I can identify with that. (both laugh) Okay. So then, related question. What were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? You kind of touched on this already but anything to add to that? Adamsel: Well, yeah. So, I mean I think I was always taught about the Black experience through my household. I was raised by women who thought it was really important to teach you about the way you might be perceived, about the way you should act in public, treating people with respect. But the older I get, I don’t think that was by coincidence, by choice. It was because they were older black women who probably saw how black men were being treated in Los Angeles, specifically even anywhere you go. Even in the Inland Empire, being mindful of your surroundings is a sense of security. I think that was something that was always taught because one, you never know who’s watching ; but then there’s also if anything goes down, you might also be taken at a—how would you say? Like you’re not going to be given the benefit of the doubt. I think that’s what was the message that was trying to be given to me at a young age. And like I said, I didn’t really need anybody to tell me. I mean, I had family to tell me, uncles, aunts, anything. They would tell me the basics of be mindful of what’s going on in the streets, going to and from school, being in life. But then, also reading, whether it was historical books, whether it was non-fictional accounts from people and different areas. I feel through travels—my family used to send me off to different places, whether it was to visit family in Georgia or Detroit and allow me to soak in environments, and “Hey, go use public transportation, but understand how to blend and go about your daily life.” But in that Black experience, one, it was a lot of lived moments. It was a lot of learned experience, just through hands-on teaching. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: But through reading books, sometimes you can use other people’s experiences, other people’s lives and allow that to shape your understanding of those relationships, intercultural. Like I said, it’s all about how people perceive you. And then, based on their perception of how they might view the Black man in America or even Black kids in America, they’re going to treat you a certain way. And it’s through family teaching, I think I was able to realize, whether it was if I didn’t know the term “microaggression,” I could tell if somebody was a little bit more disrespectful to me or if somebody had respect no matter where you came from and, also, if I even wanted to bother with certain people just because of what I thought their perception of me might have been. Ho: Thank you. You mentioned visiting family in Georgia and other places. Can you briefly touch on your experience in L.A. versus Georgia and then also in San Marcos. I know they are three totally different locations in terms of demographics and culture. How was that like for you? Adamsel: Yeah. So, I’ll touch on that. I mean, when it comes to Watts versus—and then, I’ll even bring in like Marino Valley. So, Watts was a place where, even through history, one of the things that’s really prominent that I used to like the most when I was a kid was just even the brief history of the Watts Towers. These are towers in Watts but when you read—it’s sort of folklore but it’s a true story—but the books talk about a man being able to build the Watts Towers out of recycled materials, old mosaic artwork, everything and builds these—I forget how many towers are in there, but beautiful, beautiful structures made out of restructured material. And every time I used to go to school, I used to see these towers as a little kid. And I’m like “Man!” and try to find out the story about that. I used to—“Man, you could do anything with recycled materials. It looks beautiful. It’s structurally sound, and people respect it” and then also knowing that somebody came here to build that in a place that (clears throat) when you think about Watts, sometimes people have mixed reviews about it. It might not be labeled as one of the safest places for everybody. So, it’s one of those things that I used to like, being able to connect with people, and also seeing the amount of black and brown people in that city. I think that I used to appreciate that, and I think going to elementary, second grade out there, it was one of those things. My introduction to the school system started there. But that was also where I had some of my first Black teachers. And so, it was a lot of that there, even the afterschool programs. I feel like whether I knew it or not, I was soaking in those experiences. And when I went to the Inland Empire, I mean it really wasn’t like on a historical Black history tip in the Inland Empire. But that was also a growing city. And I think a lot of people migrated out there. It was a growing place. And I felt like that allowed me to be in an environment where it was sort of carefree. I could learn. I could sort of be— (clears throat) like my environment wasn’t going to shape me any way. I don’t think my environment, and the Inland Empire, it may not have been Black centric. But I still feel like there was opportunities for me to go any direction that I wanted to. When I’m in my studies, I still found pockets of Black mentorship or a teacher here or there. But I just feel like just the overall environment and that quality of life, it was just something simple for a young man to grow up in. You still see those different relationships. You still see it play out. You still would be taught by family. But it was a totally different environment than L.A., slightly less busy. And I think I like that internally. And when I think about Georgia, visiting family whether it was Georgia—I think one of the biggest things that I was able to do when I visited Georgia, one, is just see the difference in Black culture as a kid. I remember going to Georgia and then, in the summers, some of the friends and things that I would make in local parks or kicking it with family, you see them doing things different. You see Black kids playing baseball, whereas in California I’m like “We mainly play basketball” over there. Or just different accents. And I have family from the south. So, I feel like the accent really wasn’t a difference. But also, the historical areas, you could go down, visit MLK Museums or Black History museums and just soak up, I think, the southern culture a little bit more than you technically would on the west coast. I’m not saying the west coast doesn’t have a vibrant Black culture. But when you come from a place where, whether the narrative wants to be blatantly told or not, you’re going to have a museum that captured things that some people might want to forget. Or just in the street names, or just in the local—even like the weather. You soak in so much from the people who have been there, who have lived it for generations and generations. And I feel like that’s one of the things that I still love to this day, traveling to different areas who their past has been, ultimately, a lot of Black history. And they have to—there’s so many different ways for them to keep track of that history and that culture. And it lives on through whether it’s food, music, style. I like it all, and it’s all a blend. Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s great. Identity is really important, and knowing about your history and your people really grounds you and shapes you. And it’s really important, for sure. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: Definitely. Okay. So then, what about San Marcos? Why did you decide to come here, and then what about the culture of this area brought you here? Why did you choose San Marcos? Adamsel: Yeah. To be honest, one of my homeboys, one of my friends from high school, we used to be in band together. And I think he came here—Damion Brandtley—he was a scholar here. But he had just told me about it. He was like “Man, it’s way cooler, weather-wise.” It’s near the beach. It’s a beautiful place. I had never been. But the Inland Empire was hot. And I was like “Yeah. I wouldn’t mind going there.” And I think I had applied but when I had originally applied, I ended up going to the military first. And then I think I was in Virginia and then I had tried again to apply. And then I ended up getting in. But I didn’t come right away. So, I had never seen San Marcos. I had only heard the weather was decent because it was semi-close to the beach. You can get there by local transportation. But when I came to San Marcos, I think I appreciated the hills. I appreciated the calmness of San Marcos. I came in 2013. I feel like they built a building every single year since then, and it’s developing. It’s not the calm city. Well, it probably won’t be the calm city that I’d seen. But when I’d first seen it, it was just so calm and so peaceful. And I think I enjoyed that peace. I won’t say it was like I was looking at San Marcos and I’m like “Oh my god, the demographics of the Black population are just so amazing.” (Jennifer chuckles) You know, I’m gonna feel enveloped. But I’m not the kind of person that says, “I need my group to be the most dominant in the area to thrive.” I didn’t look at San Marcos like that. I looked at San Marcos as a place where it was a young area. And I was like “Well, if this place is growing, I can grow with it” because I can’t grow in a place where it’s like too much going on around me. I won’t probably be able to focus. I was nervous about that. And, yeah, so San Marcos, a beautiful place. I feel like the demographics were all over the place. But I still felt like it was a majority White. I know it became a Hispanic institution. So, we get some trickles of culture there. Our Native American Land Act, that’s great. But one of the things I always noticed around my time in school is just the rate, the percentages of Black Americans at Cal State San Marcos, typically like 2.5, 3%. And that stayed the same. And I never really understood that dynamic in the relationship to Black students, understanding do they know it’s here? Is it a cool place to be? But it just didn’t seem—I feel like we got—there was Blackness here, but I felt like the community, anybody that was here, typically had to band together because we were here together. But yeah, it feels like San Marcos wasn’t that place where I was just “I’m going because the Black population.” I think I went because it was a young university, and I think the university was still making a name for itself. And so, I came in at a time where I was like “Hey. I want to do that too.” So, we had similar visions. (chuckles) Ho: Okay. That’s nice. I like how you said that you and the university would grow together. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: That’s really great. Remind me what years were you at Cal State San Marcos? Adamsel: I was there from 2013, Fall 2013, to Spring 2018. Ho: Okay. Now tell me what’s your relationship to the Black Student Center? Why did you get involved? Adamsel: Yeah. My relationship is I think I got involved because of friends. Being a young Black man on Cal State San Marcos’s campus, even staying in the dorms my Freshmen year, one of the natures of my relationship to campus used to be “Let me go to class, and then let me go back to the dorms, maybe work on homework, maybe not.” But I felt like I had a lot of friends in the dorms. And that was my relationship to campus. But then, ultimately, I started knowing more and more people who were upper classmen. And I think it might have been like Kyla or Tiffaney Boyd, but different people had come into my friend group and they’d be like “Oh, you know, on Tuesdays we’re going to this Black Student Union meeting.” And I think ultimately my relationship with fellow Black students on campus started thriving. So, when it came to, I believe it was like my, it might have been my second or third year in Cal State San Marcos. And that was one of the things. I used to actually just be like a fly on the wall when it came to the matters of BSC arriving, thinking about Jamaéla (Johnson), Tiffaney. Yeah. We’d have conversations about “Oh, you know, we’re thinking about Black Student Center, and thinking about what that could mean for university Black students.” And I remember tagging along to like the BSU meetings to promote this idea of “Hey, you know, this is coming! Are we having support from all of us? Is this something that—if there’s ever going to be sign holding or different things like that.” Because I know Tiffaney and Jamaéla were very involved with student government. They were the leaders at that time. I believe Tiffaney was president at that time. And that was one of those things where you were just making sure that this is not only an idea coming from two heads but getting that buy-in from an entire community, understanding like “Hey, you know, we have community but if we could have this space, the community probably wouldn’t have to work as hard trying to organize together or even have that spot on campus to where it’s undeniably yours.” Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And so, yeah. I feel like personally I don’t necessarily know. I guess in hindsight you never really know how minor some of your actions might be. Reviewing documents differently, like it may seem so minor. And for me it does, in relationship to the work that Jamaéla and Tiffaney and a lot of other people have put in, even people not inside the Black community, allies from the Latin
/X Center, different other groups and different people around campus. I feel like my work was miniscule but ultimately that Center thrived and came to be. And then, I feel like my relationship with the Center also blossomed because, as Tiffaney and Jamaéla and some of those other strong pushers of this space, they were there but then they left. And then I’m a student, ended up being involved in student government and then, ultimately, became student government president and then I get to see even more. Being a Black student government president, my relationship with Black students is probably going to be a little different in the sense that this should be a working relationship, for sure. If there’s Black students on campus, I want them to see how seamless it should be to, one, do good work for the university, but then also make sure you’re still seen in your spaces and not sort of having this gap between “Oh, that’s Louis. But we have no idea who he is.” Or he has no ideas (of) what is the regular Black student facing on campus. And I think that was one of the things that I really wanted to do, as a student, even as a student leader, is always make sure that, one, I was seen in those spaces, but then encourage the students who were in those spaces “Hey, because you’re a leader in this space, that means you could lead anywhere on campus. Don’t forget to come back and make sure you’re in multiple spaces at once.” But I was like “That’s what the university needs! They need to see Black people, whether you originated in the Center, because (it’s) a place of comfort.” I’m like “They need to see you in every facet of the university because like why not!” But that’s how I used to treat my relationship to the Black Student Center. I hope I answered that question. Ho: Yeah. For sure. Thank you. Okay. So, tell me. You mentioned Jamaéla and Tiffaney. Tell me about different leaders on the project and their contributions, including any unsung heroes that maybe we don’t know about because there are always unsung heroes. Adamsel: Yeah. I’m totally blanking on people’s names and times because it was a while ago and Tiffaney and Jamaéla might beat me up. I do remember there was a Karen Guzman. I remember she used to work closely with Tiffaney and Jamaéla in getting support of different people. Ho: Was she a student? Adamsel: Yes. She was a student, and I don’t really know how she chooses to identify herself. Like Chincanx, Latinx. But I know she was a pusher of this space as well as a pusher for the Latina Center. Um, man, other folks. I think the entire Black community might get a pat on the back for pushing this. Thinking about Akilah Wiggins, I believe she was one of the first people to tell me to go to a BSU meeting and then, ultimately, leading me to work in conjunction with Tiffaney and Jamaéla. And, yeah, anybody else who I forget, they(’re) going to probably have to come and talk to me because I’m probably forgetting a lot more names. But there were a lot of unsung heroes. And, for me, even when it comes to unsung heroes, that’s one of the things that I also think about, is as the space grew and as it came to be what it is today, I’m thinking about even all the student workers who worked in the Black Student Center when it first opened. I think about the first director, Anthony Jett. I think about where the space is now from where it was, and I’m—even people like Dr. G(eoffrey Gilmore) or—man, some of our Student Life and Leadership folks that I’m forgetting. But, again, from where it is then to where it is now, that growth, those events, the events that were in person, our Black Faculty Staff Association, I feel like every single Black group on the campus they organize in a way to where they needed to be in that space at some point. And when it comes to that leadership on this, man, there were so many leaders. But it was just something that Black students felt they needed. And then not only felt they needed but then came together to get it. I think that was really powerful. And, yeah, like I said, it was a lot of unsung heroes. But I think, ultimately, everyone’s last vision, from the time it was a spark in someone’s mind to the time they had their first-year anniversary, even coming on multiple year anniversaries to our current director now, I think everybody’s vision is really just to make that space for Black students, one, to feel recognized, to feel seen but then also this is not a soaking pool. This should be the jump-off point. You might come hear introduction to the university but you’re going to bounce off going in so many different paths. But, ultimately, your first relationship to the university, unlike me, unlike some of the unsung heroes, our first relationship to the university wasn’t a Black Student Center. It was just relationships with each other. And if you couldn’t walk past a Black student on campus without knowing their name, that was the conversation. You go “Hey, hey. You know, I haven’t seen you before. You might be a commuter. You might be—whoever you are but we need to know a name so we can at least invite you to our next outing, our next poolside, our next, community service, anything.” But, yeah, thank you for that question. Ho: Sure, yeah. If you think of peoples’ names as we’re talking, please feel free to mention them. Adamsel: Oh, yeah. Of course. I’ll make sure I’ll throw them out. Ho: Okay. Great. So, you mentioned vision and purpose for the Black Student Center. Tell me what the vision and mission and purpose were and what they are now, or as recently as—since we’re not at the university anymore. Adamsel: Man, you know, John— Ho: I mean not word for word but in your opinion. Adamsel: I’m like John might have to hurt me (Jen laughs) because I don’t know the mission, the vision today. But I think that mission—because this is going to have to come off the top of the head and this is going to be mission-based on what I felt, and vision based on what I’ve seen—I think that mission was to create an environment to where Black students felt seen. They felt a little bit protected because they were among people who shared their common experiences along with themselves. And I think it also created a space to where you can be around your peers who share those same experiences. And then, maybe, if people who were not a part of your ethnic background, they want to come in and try to be an ally, try to learn a little bit. It also creates a space for other people to come in and see you in your spaces, how you interact, the events that you put on, and hopefully learn a little bit about your community so they could be better people, better allies. I think the vision, when it comes to the space, is making sure you achieve that Black excellence in the school setting, feel supported by your peers. But then it also—the vision is bringing in that Black faculty and staff component, making sure these students are supported, making sure that if there are other allies in the faculty staff around campus, like “Hey, if you want to come find this prominent group of Black students, people who are involved, if you need to pull things, this creates a space where everybody is on campus.” And let’s say they’re looking for Black students to get involved or mentor, it allows you that area to where you can pull from. And even if you’re not solely pulling from that space as a resource of Black students, it also allows that to be a beacon on campus for Black students as they’re coming, as they’re commuting, like “Hey. I didn’t know this space existed. Boom! Let me pop in there. I don’t only have to be in like a commuter line. Or I don’t only have to be in a library study room.” And then going back to that connectivity and that nature, having that Black Student Center is that homing beacon when we’re on campus. I feel like it adds to our retention, or it should add to the retention. I’m not going to spit out the numbers and say has this done what we expected it to do? But that vision is to increase that campus presence, to increase your interaction with the campus because we all understand building a relationship with a space. Building that relationship with a space will ultimately enhance your relationship to the university. Getting more involved, typically more times than not, will allow students to keep their GPA up, their GPA requirements on things, be a little bit more focused, have more peers around, build better relationships. So, you end up leaving college better than you found it but then you also leave college with a larger network, a couple more experiences—some great experiences at that—and a little bit more understanding of who you are in relationship to the entire world. Ho: Thank you. So, these items that you mention—increasing your network, increasing retention, being a beacon for Black students—are these what the students and faculty and staff had in mind when they were pushing for the Black Student Center? Or was there anything else? Adamsel: Yeah. I think they were pushing for that, and I think some of the students would say I sometimes debate with the phrase “Safe Space.” Yeah, this is a space for you to grow. I don’t necessarily—I work crisis. I don’t necessarily think every single space is safe. I still—We got to do our due diligence. But when we look at the space, I think people wanted it to be a space where they can come see a little bit of history, learn a little bit about their peers. And, ultimately, this is the catalyst for Black students, whether it was research, tutoring. This is the hub. And I think that was the vision that Black faculty, staff, and students wanted to see because, when we came on campus, just the fact of we’re walking up Chavez stairs just like the rest of them, and we’d go all the way to the back of the school. And this is 2013. We go all the way to the back of the school still to meet in like Mark 101, Mark 103, 102. And that was our commute. And we’d see everybody at U-hour. We’re walking all the way across campus or sometimes we’d be in SBSB, you know, walk across campus. We always had to do a migration. But even when the Black—I mean, not the Black student but when the USU was built, the University Student Union was built, we see all these groups in the space. We understand what could be possible, what could be done. But we didn’t have it. And, pushing for that, it’s like okay. Well, we know what we could have. They look like they’re having a good time. They look like their events are awesome. There’s cross-functioning, cross-collaboration going on. There’s support from the university. There is support from Student Life and Leadership. There’s support from our Vice President of Student University Affairs. All these groups have it. We don’t. So, when you see that support from the university, it makes you look and say it looks like in some shape or form, it may not be in entirety that the university is supporting, but just these spaces existing on Cal State San Marco’s campus, that allowed Black students to realize like wow! This is how the university chose to support this, and this is how we are supported. And when you look at differences, differences can sometimes be blatant explanations without needing to say anything. The imagery that I see, the events that I see put on, I’m walking my day-to-day path through the university. I’m feeling the relationship that I am in with the university. But somebody else might feel their relationship is different, based on what they identify with, based on the spaces they can go into and see themselves represented, whether it’s in imagery, whether it’s in dialogue, whether it’s events. And if I get events coming up the end of January ‘til the beginning of March, then I know like oh, wow! This is how you see me. This is how you choose to view me. And this is going to be your relationship with me. Ho: Thank you. I have a list of questions here, but I went way off, just following your— (both chuckle) Adamsel: Oh. It’s all right. Ho: Okay. So, did you experience or witness any push back to the creation of the Black Student Center? Adamsel: Yeah. But I think I experienced it in a multitude of ways. I think there was push back coming from places that you never would think. Ho: Like what? Adamsel: I think there was push back from student government, on meetings when there would be topics in conversation where it’s like public, like you could see people speaking against bringing on the Black Student Center. And to be honest, I don’t think I really was in those meetings that much, invested. But when I was there, I could see it, or even reading the meeting minutes afterwards, I’m like dang! I didn’t know this person was against it or for it. When the culmination of the Center was starting, I think Cal State San Marcos might have posted something about it, one way or another. And I think there was a multitude of comments, hundreds of comments where it was like “We don’t need spaces for Black people,” dah, dah, dah, dah. It’s crazy to see people just against cultural identifiable spaces. It’s like “Why do you all need a safe space? We don’t have one.” And they don’t understand that relationship. Or “Why do you feel like you need to go into a Black Student Center? We think you’re going to just hide out in there. This doesn’t need to be a space for your hiding. If you want to be accepted, then go places where everybody is and then you’ll be accepted.” Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And it’s just funny how people’s understanding of what you mean by “safe space” means or what some people meant by having a Center, whether it talks about their identity needs, their racial identity needs. I’m just like, man. For me, I think sometimes the pushback was very weird. Or it wouldn’t be pushback, but when you look at the amount of people that felt uncomfortable just walking past our spaces or even being in the space, and you could see a person who wasn’t Black. They might meet somebody who’s Black that’s in the space, might be a friend. But then they’d be lingering at the door like “Hey. Can you come on out?” People just feel awkward when they go into a space that, overall, the majority doesn’t look like them. They’re scared to go in, and they feel awkward going in. But then, when you say, “This is how I feel when everywhere doesn’t look like me,” it’s hard for them to picture it. And I’m like, “Oh. You feel that way when you come into our space. That’s how I feel (when) I’m in your space.” But it’s funny when people can’t do a quick flip in their mind and see like ah! This is probably why you want it and need it. (chuckles) Ho: Yeah. I get what you’re saying. I know who you’re talking about. (both laugh) All right. What did Uiversity Administration communicate was their vision for the Black Student Center, if you remember? Adamsel: Mmm, I don’t know. I know when I was a senior, I did an independent study project with Dreama Moon. And I spoke about the—I forget the title of this independent reader study project—but I spoke about how the university can bring forward something like a Black Student Center and they hope that it would—I think their vision was this will fix all of our problems with the Black community, and we will make this space. And your relationship with the campus, Black students’ relationships with the university, ultimately it will be fixed. And, for me, I think in my research—that was one of the things that I noticed because I felt a way about it—I was like yeah, just because there’s a Black Student Center, that doesn’t mean that the university has fully acknowledged everything that the Black students are going through and then is working to fix (it). Because the Black Student Center is the smallest center in the university student union. But it’s just one center. It only had one director. The budget may have been whatever it was. It was probably—still, it’s a budget. It’s limited. And if the organization, the university, doesn’t change, those Black students that are in that space still don’t feel confident to go out and be leaders on campus. They still might not feel confident to go off and explore different areas. I didn’t necessarily want the Black Student Center to be a safe haven. I wanted it to be a place of exploration, research. You start here but you go anywhere you want on campus. But in order for you to feel like you can be anywhere on campus, that campus has to be inviting. That campus has to be doing more from the top. We need to see it probably in leadership. We need to see it in mentorship. We need to see it in recruitment and retention rates. And these are all things that I cared about. And so, when I was on campus, I worked in whether it was like hiring diversity, on diversity committees, or sitting in African American retention committees. I see the numbers. I see what we’re doing. But ultimately, all that just funneled my thoughts and we’re not doing enough because if we were doing enough, they would feel comfortable. They wouldn’t want to leave. They would be present. But all the people that were being present, again, they consolidated in that Center. And I don’t think it was the Center’s fault. I think it was just acknowledgment that the university thought the Center was the end all, be all. But Black students, people, we naturally need more. We want more. But it takes more than just a space to make anybody feel comfortable to say, “Okay. This university is it. I want to be, ultimately, involved.” And so, yeah, just going off that. I don’t feel that the university administration really—whatever their vision was, I don’t think they pushed it, from top to bottom. It wasn’t reflected in policies. It wasn’t reflected in hiring. It wasn’t reflected in Black faculty and staff numbers. I just didn’t see it. But that’s just me. If there’s some numbers out there that have prove me wrong, show them. (both laugh) Ho: So, are you saying that, based on what you saw, Administration was just like “Okay. Here’s your Center. That’s it. We gave you enough.” Is that, basically, the impression you got? Adamsel: Yeah. That was basically it. I think that the Center was that space to give. It was a place like “We’re going to give this to you. You have it. This should be enough. And we’re going to take a step back.” This is a smaller population. You might be 2.5-3% but this is not a population. I think that should have probably been a red flag. This is a population to cultivate. This is a population—it may be a small representation of our campus but hey, if we cultivate this group, if we make sure we do everything in our power that this group succeeds, we might not be getting monies from federal sources or resources or anything like that. But, for me, I realize taking that initiative and putting that foot forward for any student, I feel like we have pockets of Black faculty and staff overworking to make sure we felt accepted. And there were students who wanted to make sure that the next student felt accepted. But man, that would have felt good coming from the university with university backing, with programs and resources from the jump. I think about people like Floyd Lai of the Cross-Cultural Center, Andreas Favela, even Francisco Checa, EOP. All these other groups, all these other resources may have been there for underserved students and even showing Black students “Hey, you call can do mentorships. You all can have that.” And I love watching other spaces, how they worked and how other groups, even if you come from a minority represented population—looking at CAMP (College Assistance Migrant Program) students, TRIO, even international students—every population on our campus has the ability to get backing and support and budget outlined for that specific thing. And I loved—I always imagined it like rungs on a ladder. If I was a LatinX student or if I was a white student, how many rungs on the ladder—if I slipped and fell off this ladder—how many rungs would I hit on this ladder until I fell off into nothingness? Am I going to see counselors I could potentially train with? Are there student groups that I could reach out to? Are there counselors or things or events that are specifically targeted to me to where I can hit every step at Cal State San Marcos before I ultimately fall off? And therefore, I feel like Black students, especially Black male students, Black female students, man, there’s not a lot of opportunities to pick you up if you fail. If you fail your first year, your second year, and you decide to fall off the wayside and not come back, how many people or how many organizations would be there to “Oh, we’re really geared towards retention. We’re really geared to making sure you felt safe, comfortable, understood.” I didn’t see that much. And so, for me, that was always on the forefront of my head. Ho: Thank you. Okay. Can you tell me about—Actually, were you at the grand opening of the Black Student Center? Adamsel: Yeah. It was a lovely event. Ho: Okay. All right. Have you seen the same level of support for the Center over the years since it opened? Adamsel: When it opened, I did see some support. I think I saw some university administration go in there and at least try to visit the space. And I think I saw a lot of faculty members across— whether they were in the arts, history, communications professors. I feel like a lot of people chose to partner with the Black Student Center when it first opened. And I saw events out the wazoo. But I think the biggest thing when—And so we’re focusing on partnerships, right? Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: Yeah. So, I think a lot of people came, especially from the opening. Well, it was even before the opening because I feel like it was open a little bit before the grand opening. And so, I feel a lot of people across the university wanted to come and see it, if they supported it. And they even urged their students to go out and come support it. And the grand opening was a great event with performances, food. I believe the president even spoke at the grand opening. And so, seeing that representation from university administration and seeing that support, it showcased like oh, this is what it could be. And the amount of students that were able to come and just because it was a space, whether they wanted to see it or not, they were like wow! Intrigued that this is all happening. And this might be a smaller Center but the things that took place, whether it was on the grand opening day or right after and the years to come, it seemed like it was booming. I think ultimately the Center has transformed from the things that it has done now, one, because of Covid, but even before Covid, I feel like the transformation was really geared at involvement, events, and then really gearing up partnerships. And I think, especially with the hiring of—I forget her title but sort of like the overall—Gail Cole-Avent, Dr. Gail Cole-Avent, what her role in managing all the spaces and those leaders from all those spaces, being able to come together. I image the partnerships are even on another scale now because they are able to communicate calendars and everything. But it’s nice to see the events just being churned out. It’s nice to see that the students have such a greater involvement. And I think—because before, when the Center first started, I think the university presence was like “Hey. Let’s let this Center cultivate.” But now I’m starting to see more “Hey, Black Students. We’re having new policies come out about retention. We’re having new policies come out about—We’re going to go into a study about the Black student experience, especially working with that BSC, Black Student Center.” So, I see the difference and before it was “Hey. We’re going to let the Black Student Center thrive and flourish by itself.” It can go up in flames or it can fly off into the sunset. But I didn’t see more policies supporting the students on a microlevel. Are we talking about how we’re getting students in? Are we talking about how we’re keeping them here. Hey, if the BSC is doing this, are the faculty/staff doing this? Is the university doing this? The onus shouldn’t only be on the students. What about the environment that they’re in? and I think, especially with people going back to campus this Fall, in the Fall of 2021, I’m excited to see hey, are those university policies that are slowly being implemented, what are they doing to make sure that we’re retaining? And not only retaining, are we growing? Is there any possibility of getting past that 3%? Is there any possibility to make students feel comfortable on this campus? And it can be done. But it starts off with things like policies and people really reviewing. One of the things that I pushed back on, even when I was a student, as student government president, I even made that motion to say, “Hey. ASI should separate” because we have the Gender Equity Center and the LGBTQA Center, both great centers, but ASI was having them on their budget. Whereas the university budgets for Centers were different. And I just looked at it like wow. This is the Black Student Center. ASI doesn’t have the money in their budget. Cross Cultural Center is not on our budget. It’s all different. And when I look at the amount of differences, man, this is a lack of equity. And so, especially based on population, that’s all I care about. Are we going to give students in every single space the same opportunity to feel seen, feel accepted, and then also make sure that these university areas have great cross-functional relationships so people don’t feel afraid to learn and support another group, even if you’re not a part of that group? Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And I think if the university continues on that equity-based leadership, that thought process, they could get a much better space of identifying there’s an issue, even if students bring it up, even if you’re being reactive. If students bring up an issue, taking that time to listen to what the students are saying and say “Oh, they say they don’t feel supported. What can we do? They say there’s not enough resources for them. What can we do?” But, yeah, it starts with leadership. It starts with policy. And I think that’s the biggest thing. Ho: Definitely. Thank you for that. Going back a little, you mentioned some partnerships between the different centers. Do the different centers work together a lot in your experience? Adamsel: I think it could be better, at least from what I’ve seen. I do think a lot of times, when I was a student, I used to see other spaces come into the BSC, the Black Student Center, dropping off flyers and say “Hey, make sure you all come to my event,” drop off flyers and say “Come. Come. Come.” But it was never like y’all are doing something. We wholeheartedly want to support you. And there would be some opportunity for that. I don’t want to say none of these spaces I ever supported. But I did see some spaces would come into the Black Student Center to promote, and you know, “Hey. Bring your people. Yeah, we got free food. We got—” Maybe they had the budget to do free food. But they’d be like “Hey, you know, we got this. Come.” But when it was, we’re promoting, whether it was historical movie night or historical U-hour, sometimes they would be slow to come. And I think one of the things, especially from our first Director, Anthony Jett, that was one of the things that he would do, is work on those relationships. And I think, even from Anthony Jett to John Rawlins (III), those relationships as a Black Student Center Director are very important. But then it also—one of the things that I also have to acknowledge about those relationships as a Director to the university is they probably have so many different things and policies and ideas that they have to work on and manage as well as events. So, it depends on their relationships. But then I know it also probably depends on the people in those spaces, continuously building that comfort and that support network. And the people in other spaces, we all have to be in that mindset of okay, I’m going to help you get to that next step because either I’m there or I just want to help you out of the kindness of my heart. And I think people, the more that they started coming out and interacting with the Black Student Center, especially from those different identity or cultural spaces, they ultimately got more comfortable, more and more, to do it with the Black Student Center. And nowadays, you see collaboration of events starting, Boom! at the beginning of the semester. We’re going to all get out there, showcase what we all have. And then, I’m starting to see different—You know, “Let’s look at this culture through your lens.” Or “We’re going to all go to the Black Student Center, in collaboration with—” So, I see these relationships are booming. Ho. Mm-hmm. Adamsel: You know, longevity, time, people, these relationships are only going to get stronger. I think in the first couple years, first year or two, we’re going to see that mesh sort of happening and what’s our relationship to each other? How can we support each other? You’re sort of figuring that out. And I think a lot of the other spaces—I think that’s one of the things they had on the Black Student Center is they had probably been there for a little bit. So, maybe that’s one of the things that they were also able to do, sort of give that road map. “Oh, the Black Student Center can host an event like this,” or “We can collaborate with Student Life and Leadership like this.” So, I appreciated seeing that, the growing pains, the relationship building. But ultimately, I don’t think it’s anything that’s especially to a relationship building, I don’t think it’s anything that’s built overnight. And it's just a continuous effort and a continuous mindset to say this is what we want to do, and we really want to support this group of students, this area, the best way we can. And it has to come from the entire community. Ho: Thank you. You mentioned Historical U-Hour, Historical Moving On. Is that what you said? Adamsel: Historical with what? Ho: I don’t know. In terms of programming, you mentioned Historical U-Hour, and then Historical something else. And I was just wondering what those were. Adamsel: Yeah. So, U-Hour, 12-1 hour on the university. And I think it’s like Tuesdays and Thursdays. Well, it may have only been Tuesday. I think it was Tuesday and Thursday when there’s typically no class, from 12-1. So, typically groups and events would take place 12-1. And so, historically, when it came to U-Hour, some of these groups and events had already been out there, whether it’s promoting events, doing different things. And I think they took those experiences, one, it showed the Black Student Union this is how it’s done. And then, the Black Student Union, when the BSC came to be, it was like Boom! We have students who already identify how to throw events, how to work with Student Life and Leadership or ASI to get funding. And even when we got directors—Now, our directors probably have budgets and so they’re able to let us know how they can partner and make the best things for students. But those other spaces, in that relationship, they also use that historical nature of U-Hour to partner, do partnerships, even afternoon events, different things like that. So, I did like that time. And like I said, it’s just ultimately growth together and, through time and longevity, probably get that rhythm of, hey, this partnership was straight. Let’s continue on that partnership. Or what can we do to enhance anything that we’re doing? Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. So, tell me, in your experience, what has been the Black Student Center’s impact on the campus community, as well as you personally? Adamsel: I think their impact on the campus community has been amazing. It has allowed the university to have the support in a different way. (looks off the right in thought) So, wait. Can you repeat that question because I want to try to connect that? Ho: Sure. Yeah. Sure. What’s been the BSC’s impact on the campus community as well as the impact on you, personally? Adamsel: Okay. So, the campus community I think is impacted. It’s a decent impact. It’s not anything that has caused waves of change, at least when it first came. And, to this day, I think it can be a beacon of change. But the impact was it gave students a beacon, Black students particularly. It gave us an area to where it’s like, okay, orientation efforts. Can we focus on making sure that they’re coming? Communications are routed through the BSC. Can we get representation that way? Our impact with involvement, it has impacted that. It has allowed Black students to take up leadership roles in areas, whether they’re student workers, whether it is giving tours to different people about the space. It has allowed us to host a majority of different things and even allowed areas like Black Student Union to meet or hold events. It has been a catalyst for the students that were there as well as faculty and staff to understand like hey, if I wanted to come during U-Hour and sit and learn or sit and chat with current students about what I do, maybe opportunities for mentorship, I’m like wow! They already know where they can come to do that or come to get information on how to do it and how to further impact our students. So, I feel like the impact has really been on a community level. It has been broadening. It has allowed faculty, staff from all areas in university leadership, all areas to have a beacon point to not really see the entire Black population but to see, okay, if we wanted to talk to people who see current students or even get feedback, bounce ideas off, how can we best serve the needs of students today? At least it gives the university—this could probably be like the north star along with some of the Black student organizations. And when I talk about another piece, it’s organization, you know. If students have issues or they feel like they can’t go to student government or they want to talk about administrative or other things like that, the Black Student Center Director also can create that environment to where now it’s okay, you have another person in the leadership capacity through his relationships, through her relationships. I don’t want to say like his or her because they might see this on video in a couple of years. It might be a different person. (chuckles) But that director can be another person to carry their ideas forward. And, yeah, so the impact. Again, amazing for what it’s doing now. Can it be better? Yes. We all want the best for that space. But I think ultimately that impact has impacted the Black student life on campus in a decent way. And now, the impact of Black Student Center, I want it to have an impact on policy in the entire university as a whole to where hopefully we get to a point where you ask somebody how to get to the Black Student Center. Hopefully any faculty on campus can let you know where it is, or they understand about the importance of why it’s there and make some time in their role on Cal State San Marcos to visit. Now, when you get into the impact that it had on me, I’m the kind of person—I feel like I would have been who I was regardless of the space. I’m that kind of person. I feel like I would have been a great human being. I would have been a decent human being. But when it comes to the Black Student Center now, my opportunity for change started way before that because I feel like it was just being around my peers in a different way. And I think that initiation started when I got involved with the Black Student Union, even bringing Omega Psi Phi, which is a historically Black fraternity on campus. We are able to join that. And I think just around my peers, and it started with the BSU. It started with involvement with other organizations. But when the BSC came, I’m like man. It kept me grounded. It kept me—My ear was always to the needs of all students, but specifically Black students. And then I also saw myself represented. I felt like I was able to provide feedback and talk to people with similar experiences as me. I was able to get involved with mentorship areas. I think that relationship that I had, even when I became a staff at Cal State San Marcos, I was even able to have a relationship with John and some of the other students and meeting with Black male students and faculty and staff, meeting with all students, holding events, be faculty advisors for different organizations. It was lovely and I think their impact on me, it’s profound. Like I said, it just—I don’t know—it motivated me to do better for them to make sure that I could always support them because that’s what I felt I needed. And I think that’s one of the best parts about this space is, as a Black student, if you choose to get involved, you’re going to notice gaps in what you see or what you felt as a student. And ultimately, when you have a chance to get involved in any capacity, you’re going to figure out, okay, how do I make the next student not feel how I felt if I felt discontent. And when it comes to Black students in Black spaces, they might have extra challenges on how they may feel discontent, whether it’s through microaggressions, whether it’s through lack of understanding, whether it’s through lack of Black leadership, whether it’s anything. So, taking it a step further, especially with Black students, I’m like “Hey. We probably noticed the same things. You probably felt the same way I felt when you first got here. You probably feel like there is not enough black representation at this space. But what can I do to bridge that gap? What can I do to make sure that if I could take a little bit of that away, will I get you to stay another semester? Let’s get you into something that you actually like to do. And if not, how about I point you into the direction of the doctor Muhammads, the doctor Geoffrey Gilmores, the professor Rawlins, the Black Student Center Director. What can we do to make sure somewhere along the way,” —even LaPorcha, over at Student Life when she was here—“what can we do to tap you into someone that can help you? And I think about the people like Gezai Berhane up in Student Life and Leadership or Marilyn McWilliams, Ariel Stevenson. And that was also an impact point for them, too. They are working in Office of Diversity or Student Life and Leadership and Black people as well, the BFSA (Black Faculty Staff Association), all those folks are going right there and getting people involved where they are because it’s like they know you get involved, you start coming, you start insisting, you’re going to have a job to do on the campus. You’re going to associate this campus with a little bit more than just go to class, go home, go to class, go to the BSC, go home. You’re getting some skin in the game. So, I think that’s what everybody started doing and ultimately that’s what—I didn’t need the BSC to do it, but I think the students in the BSC ultimately gave me way more skin in the game than I wanted. But it was necessary, and I loved them for it. Ho: That’s lovely, thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Two more questions, and they can be as short or as long as you want but are there any, I don’t know, behind the scenes stories you want to share? Or anything else you want to say about the Black Student Center or your time at Cal State San Marcos so that one hundred years from now, when you and I are gone, the stories are going to still exist. Anything else? Adamsel: I felt I got some fabulous stories about my time at San Marcos, but I don’t know if I care to go into all of them. I think I did sort of tell one about—I spoke about being a student government leader and, lightly, I’d spoke about addressing the fact that ASI was housing two spaces. And we didn’t house the BSC, the Black Student Center. The Latina Center was not sponsored by us. The Cross-Cultural Center wasn’t sponsored by us. But we sponsored the LGBTQA and Gender Equity Center. And, for me, I think it’s so weird being in the position of leadership and seeing—And it may not even feel like inequity to people. But people can live life and you can be doing something, and you can look at budgeting and everything like that and you can be like “Wow, I’m housing these two spaces.” And then I look at Black Student Center and it’s not equity. They’re not getting the same—They’re not even probably getting the same percentage. Or look at the Cross-Cultural Center. See what people are able to do in the scope of a university and see what the university values. And the university can say they value something, they value Black students. But we don’t all have the same sort of carrot, sort of the same opportunity to have the quality of events, everything. And I think that was one of the things that—It was weird because when I’d spoke about cutting ASI off away from those two spaces, (sighs) man, the directors, the people, the students in those spaces. That was like a funny time for me because I’m a leader. And I spoke to my Board about it, and I was like “Hey man, they’ve got to probably come off this budget.” One, students were not happy. There was a small pocket of students and I don’t want to take anything away from my friends and colleagues in Gender Equity Center and LGBTQA because I don’t think that’s something that a student should protest. But students were right because ASI student fees, they come out of everybody. And I think some of the students were upset that my student fees are coming out of something and paying and sponsoring something I don’t believe in. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And as a student, I was like “Man. These people are talking crazy! But they’re right.” Because if I believe in—You could believe in any—I could believe in McDonald’s. If I go choose to spend my money at McDonald’s, that’s great. But I shouldn’t be able to take your money, if you don’t believe in McDonald’s, and spend it at McDonald’s. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: But as students, I’m like how do you combat this? And then you don’t have to combat it. I think the university should create a space to where they’re like ‘Here, we believe in our Native American brothers and sisters whose land this is. Here, we believe in Chicanx, Latinx students. We believe and support Black students. We believe and support all gender identities.’” I’m like “That’s the university. That’s what the university should say.” And if people step into the university, they should understand this is a place where we value all of that. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: Now, if their monies don’t—Their monies are probably going to go to it because they pay tuition. You’re going to pay tuition, that’s cool. But it shouldn’t be in a place where they can attack it. And student government was a place that policies could change, where they can attack it. I’m like I’m president today, but if a president 10 years from now chose to dissolve these places—I mean, it’ll probably be hard to do but under student government these places are under attack. And unless you have all the spaces in that area under attack, then you can’t do it. Unless you have all those spaces getting the same budget, you shouldn’t be able to do it. But the one thing that stuck with me was the amount of students talking to me, as a Black man on campus, loved by some, hated by some. But they came to attack me, to tell me I didn’t care about those spaces. I remember that. They came to tell me I didn’t know the definition. You know, I’m a Black man, senior on campus, Communication major. I love it all. Educated. And they came to tell me “You don’t know the definition of intersectionality. You don’t understand us.” And all I’m trying to do is make sure when I go see Black students in their space that they’ve got the same resources. I’m looking at ASI. We can push out hundreds of events for our different centers that we hold. But for other areas we don’t print. We don’t host events for them. We don’t do that. And I wanted to mentally take ASI away from serving some and make sure we push the university. I think, when I used to have meetings with President (Karen) Haynes, I spoke to her and I was like—I was doing my own research, my own due diligence, going through old meeting minutes to figure out why do we keep these spaces? And Black Student Center came up, Latina Center came up. What made the university take those spaces? And through research, through communication with Dr. Checa, Lorena Checa, and talking to ASI—I was even looking at the inaugural addresses that President Haynes had. And I think sometime along the line, I think it was like 2104 or something like that, she was like “We value the LGBTQA Gender Equity Center.” I took that and ran with it. (chuckles) And I was in a meeting with her, and I was like “People are attacking these ASI spaces. What can we do to make sure these spaces, as well as the Black Student Center, Cross-Cultural Center, Latina Center, I want to make sure that these spaces all have that umbrella.” Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And then, a couple of months later, I think I was on a hiring committee for Dr. Gayle Cole-Avent. (laughs) It was lovely to see her being there in that space, all under the same umbrella like I envisioned, and then ASI being a new catalyst where you see the food pantry vision, the student at events side with CAB (Campus Activities Board), the Board representing student needs. You can’t look at ASI now and try to attack any piece because every single piece services everyone. And not only that, ASI is now that space to where they can connect to every single identity space, cultural space, and again, allow each one to grow in their own right. And I’m so proud of that but I think coming into a space where you’re a Black man at Cal State San Marcos and people are attacking you for wanting everything to be equal, and to let you know even though people necessarily route for you, when something is—if they deem something is attacking them, instead of understanding, sometimes, first they’ll be uncomfortable and then they’ll attack. And then, you just hope years down the line as time goes on, you’re like “Okay. I hope that you can see what my vision was, and your relationship in that, and you lost nothing by promoting me.” And sometimes, I think people think like “If we try to make everything—I’m going to lose something, or my salary might go down or my events or who’s going to do this?” No. You don’t lose nothing by making sure that everyone has a piece of the whole. And yeah, so that was a fun story. Ho: Yeah. Adamsel: I don’t know if all of that is in meeting minutes somewhere. But I laugh thinking about the past. (chuckles) Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that when the Gender Equity Center and the LGBT Center were under ASI, you wanted to move them over to the university but there was push back for you moving those two centers to the university? Adamsel: Yeah. And my Board—I spoke to my executive Board, and I was like “Got a crazy idea.” And when Louis has got crazy ideas, I’m the President. My team, bless them, they supported me. I explained it. I spoke about equity. I spoke about what the vision was, and I hoped they got it. And so, we took that to the main Board of Directors, and I said, “This is what I want to do.” Now, when those Centers and those leaders and some of those students got wind of it, then there was an opportunity for them to come and tell me to my face about their feelings, their emotions, how what I was doing was wrong, how much they hated that thought that we could just push them out. I think they thought ASI is kicking you to the curb because there is some—I don’t know if they thought ASI—They thought Louis was— (laughs) Ho: It was more personal. Adamsel: —and to see ASI, oh—even though we had a great relationship before then, instantly it became why can’t we be a part of ASI anymore? Even though our missions are the same—I mean, are not the same. Our visions are different. What we’re servicing on a day-to-day basis is different. It just became a different relationship instantly the moment I brought that to the forefront. And like I said, I think it’s because the mindset relationship to I’m going to lose something if you do X, Y, or Z. And now, upon explaining it, some of those students in those spaces came to me, “Louis, love you. When I first heard about it, I was not cool with it. But when you explained it, it made sense.” And then some were like “I ain’t talking to you.” (laughs) And that’s understood. And the leadership, pro-staff, students, no matter how they felt, I knew how I felt about equity. I knew how I felt as a Black student. I knew how I felt when you walk into events and you see what people are able to do, the magnitude, the budget, the promotion, and you’re like “Wow, that space can’t do that.” And there are still students to this day that don’t have spaces. But I’m like, “Man. In the future, Cal State San Marcos is going to grow and grow and continue to make spaces for people and identities. If we choose to make spaces, can we ultimately decide that this will be under that umbrella? And student government can be a little bit more of an assisting tool as a jump-off point, as a financial resource for all students.” But I just didn’t want it to be anything that people combatted. And I was really surprised to see pushback. But it happens. Ho: Yeah. For sure. And when you’re in a position like you were in, you’re always going to have to deal with it, I suppose. Adamsel: Yeah. And I think I knew that. But I think pushback is weird coming from people who also very well are attacked. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: People are marginalized. People are—They may face similar struggles or very different struggles than me. But when I get to a point of leadership, I want people—If I’m acknowledging the issues that you may have in society or in life or in navigating the university, I want you to be able to sort of have the same selfless nature and acknowledge how things might not be equal to anyone. And when we can do that, then it’s like okay, we can always have a conversation with anyone because then you’re able to put yourself metaphorically in somebody else’s shoes. And I think that’s the biggest thing. And I think, as a leader, that’s one of the things that allowed me to get along with just about anyone and everyone because I’m able to talk to you and be like “Okay. Have you considered this? Or is there anything about you and your needs that I need to consider? And through conversation and communication, we get to the bottom of that.” But there are sometimes there’s people that don’t want to talk. And they don’t want to have to develop and change their views, even for a little bit, because that means I have to give something up. And if you think you have to give something up just for somebody else to be comfortable, to feel seen, to have that same equity that you do, then I’m like you don’t really want change. You just want to be comfortable. You want to be there by yourself on an island of comfort. Yeah. Exactly. And I think you can expect it from certain people, certain groups. Like if somebody is blatantly, overtly racist, you can expect it from that person. But when it comes from a person, you’re like “Oh, you can be a person of color. You can be a marginalized community. You can be—” You know, even in my community. It’s like you expect yourself to have the same views and values. You may not. And that’s okay. But you just push through it. And you learn and see okay, what can I do to bypass that pushback? And try to—I think that was one thing special, as a Black male student leader. I used to have to be calm, reserved. And I used to have to think strategically, to the point, because I know how I can be perceived on a day-to-day basis. And I know in certain spaces, you’re not going to come talk to me. And in certain places, I would be disrespected. But I’m just like “Wow. It’s crazy.” Because if I lose my cool, I could be taken off into a totally different direction. (talks as if mimicking students) “Oh, he doesn’t care about us. What a mean person!” So, I understood how—even going back, I understood my relationship to people and my relationship to the university. And it’s a crazy thing to acknowledge, but that was one of the things that, being a student there, being student government president, working in leadership, catering to students, and even being a professional staff, I always had to be mindful of who I was in my relationship to people because I knew, especially based on who I am, I could easily be misconstrued. Ho: Thank you. Okay. Are there any questions that I should have asked but didn’t? Adamsel: Hhmmm. (laughs) Nah. I mean I don’t’ know. I have no idea. (Jenn laughs) Well, actually, you didn’t talk about the social justice activism. Ho: Yes. I did not ask that question. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: Would you like to go into that? How has Black social justice and activism, such as the Civil Rights Movement, Feminism, the Natural Hair Movement, and Black Lives Matter affected you? Thank you for calling it out. Adamsel: I think those movements affected me in different ways all over. When I think about the Civil Rights Movement and different things like that, I correlate the Civil Rights Movement going back to—think about Martin Luther King but even thinking about Martin Luther King and communities like Black communities in that day, pushing for equality, equity, and civil rights. I think back to education. I think of Carter G. Woodson, Mis-education of the Negro. I think about people pushing for Black people to be educated. And so, when I look at the Black populations on campus, I think back to, man, equity. What are we doing to change that generation from the generation before us? What are we doing to push more Black professionals into the workforce? Hopefully with as little overhead as possible, and getting them into the career fields, one, that they love but also making sure that they have the network not only to do what they love and then succeed and excel at it. When it came to the Natural Hair Movement, I’m in that all day, with the little bit that I have. But I think that was something where when I’d seen the Natural Hair Movement, I saw that take place on campus to where men and women in our spaces, you know, “Let’s create these events that our natural hair shows” and getting more Black businesses into our university and making sure when Black students are at campus at Cal State San Marcos, they know the local barbers, the local hair stylists that can do what they need to do, whether it’s protective styles, wear your natural hair. I like that because it builds a sense of community within our group but then it also builds a sense of collaboration in our area, increasing that network. When I think about feminism, I think back to Professor Michelle Holling. I think about when I took a feminist rhetorical theory course from her. She’s one of the greatest professors ever. But she’s tough. She going to give you the grade that you deserve. (laughs) And a great professor. But then, I think learning about feminism and learning about the multi-layered areas in feminism and how ideas about feminism—I just didn’t. I looked at my relationship to who I was based on what feminism was talking about and really, I’m like, man. I don’t see myself in this space because a lot of what you’re preaching, some of the feminist ideals from the beginning, it has racism in it. Black women, it’s like we could promote March for Women’s Rights but I’m like, yeah. If you tell me white women got to vote—what was it? Like 54 years before Black women got the vote—there’s inequity there. And if you don’t—I forget—Elizabeth Cady Stanton and everybody on those beginnings, if you’re preaching and you’re sponsoring the beginnings of feminism and there’s racism, I can’t be a part of it. But when I got to learn more about different women in the Black rhetorical feminism and seeing pockets of where Black women have to face racism and sexism in society, I feel like it was very intercommunity focused. And I felt like I chose to look at it as something like—I don’t want to disregard any woman if they’re feeling oppressed or if they have real life things that they’re dealing with, whether it’s sexual assault, abuse, even inequities in pay. These are all bad things. But I think I love to bring it back to focus on where’s my relationship in it and how can I look at it to where I’m the most involved. And I think that brought it back to it looks at family. It looks at the women in your immediate circle. It can look at your relationship with women all over. But, instead of trying to put a mind frame on “Do you love it all?” No. (chuckles) When it comes to feminism, I don’t like all the history. And there are so many different types. I did enjoy researching all about the different variations of feminism. Man, when you dive into it, some are radicals. Some are not. Some are not inclusive. Some are really inclusive. So, I really like that, breaking those things down. And I think it really starts with self. It really starts with how you’re raised, and really looking at how can you impact the community and the area and the women that you’re ultimately in communication with every day? And if you start to see signs of “Hey, somebody’s disrespectful. Somebody did something, the wrong thing.” Or “How do I understand Title IX regulations?” If somebody comes to me and “This is what happened to me!” or “Somebody took advantage of me,” did I do my due diligence to understand, on this campus, do I know how to offer assistance? Do I know how to report, if I’m a mandated reporter? What can I do to make sure, ultimately, that any woman that’s around me, that I come in contact with even if I don’t know her for about an hour or something, if they come to me with needs or issues, even outside the lens of I could take from feminism, but just being a great person, or being a good person, and making sure you’re assisting, or you can. And I think—And stepping outside the box and saying “I’m a guy. I don’t do it. I’m a Black guy. That never happened with me with you.” Or “I don’t think that could happen because I didn’t see it like that.” Being able to take a step back and like “Man. I never thought of it like that.” Or “I didn’t know that that could be misconstrued.” Or “I didn’t know that was a thing.” Can I educate myself? Can I learn how to help? Can I be a better me for the women in my life or my friend, my colleagues? I think I try every day. I’m not going to come on here and say, “Louis was a feminist.” But I’m going to come on here and say through research, through history, through learning from great professors like Professor Holling, learning from classmates and women in my life, ultimately, that’s one of the things that I feel like that affected me to make sure like “Man. I need to know about how it’s affecting people, near and dear to me.” And even if they’re not near and dear to me, how can my relationship still be on a level playing field? And the last topic was Black Lives Matter. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: How has that affected me? And, for me, man. I think Black Lives Matter has affected me in a multitude of ways. And it has been funny, because I don’t really talk about Black Lives Matter. But one of the things I think about Black Lives Matter is like uh, it’s a basic statement. And it’s basic to me because I’m Black. I know I matter. You couldn’t tell me anything otherwise. It’s just common sense to me. And I see people shouting it. And I’m like “Oh, that’s great! Black lives do matter, yeah. I fuck with that.” I mean—my language— (seems embarrassed) I believe in that. (both laugh) But I think one of the things that it really affects me differently when I look at an organization like Black Lives Matter and I don’t know if I like all the tactics that I see from it. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And I say that because I’m not a fan of Black male death. And, you know, I’m a Black male in America. But when I see death, I almost wonder—You know, I think back to throughout history we have big signs of death. You have Emmett Till. You think about police brutality with Rodney King. I’m from Watts, so I think about that. I think back to even growing up in places where you’re like, man, a Black man could have been murdered or shot. Or you see it on the news, police brutality, this, that, and the third. And it’s, for me, I’m not taking away any good that they might be able to do. But, for me, one of the things that sucks is just seeing Black male death. And you can see it in recent actions like George Floyd. And there’s so many names, even to this day. It has probably been a lot of Black male and I don’t even want to negate Black female death, Black trans men and women death. But I’m just like man. So, imagine you’re living in a society where every time a Black male, female, any identity is killed, they get a segment on TV. You probably get to see the death, their struggle. There’s a lot of reposting, re-Tweets. Before, it used to be—Like I think something that happened, because I think there was something—I think it was in Missouri or, I forget. But it was a death of a Black man, but I think it was on the—something bad had happened with something else. But I think I even was at school at Cal State San Marcos, and I could see the university didn’t want to talk about that. But they chose to talk about another topic. So, sometimes you see businesses. But now, it’s the hot thing to do. Businesses will talk about the black death or say “We stand with you.” But I wonder, when it comes down to it, how much do you really stand with that group if it’s not representative of whether it’s in your hiring, whether it’s in your policies, whether anything. But I think it has become easier for people to say it without somebody else looking at them. And when I look at organizations like Black Lives Matter, I’m not too invested in them because I live—this is my daily life. This is what we live through. We live through relationships. We live through how people perceive us. We make our own understanding of the world. But I’m, personally, not a fan of Black death and the highlighting of Black death in any facet. And I don’t really know how, when it comes to all of that, you’ve got to think. A lot of this stuff happened when I was in school. But after I graduated, I also worked at Cal State San Marcos for the Emergency Management Department. And my department was actually conveniently located in the Police Department. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And that also was like another thing because it’s like you get to see the differences. I get to see officers, and I like officers in that capacity. But then, I get to also see officers and I’m like I don’t really know, don’t really have a relationship with you. I’m not saying I had a relationship with every single officer at Cal State, but I can also say that I’ve never had a relationship with every single officer in the world. But based on what’s going on in the United States, I could see like “Wow. It’s tragic out here.” So, for me, I think, yeah, just going back to it. Black Lives Matter is not something that, personally, I’m like running to the streets to protest for. I don’t. Because until some of the—I don’t know. I think it has to be a different way to protest for what you need without promoting that death factor. Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that because of Black Lives Matter, we’re witnessing so much death of Black men without seeing an increase in equity in other areas? Adamsel: Yeah. And I don’t even want to put that on Black Lives Matter. Ho: Okay. Adamsel: But this is an organization that they will do their work. But, ultimately, out of their work you see a lot of organizations making statements, pushing out this narrative because they think without making a statement back to Black people, it might be a hindrance to their business, their operations, their reputation. When you focus on people, business, operations, reputation, oh! Snap! There’s a financial impact. People might not want to shop here. Somebody might even think there might be a protest and then somebody might use a protest as an opportunity to loot this store. And it might not be a Black person. There might be anybody. But I think it’s in their best interest, it’s in the organization’s best interest, to focus on the Black population. And I don’t think it started with Black Lives Matter, showcasing that. But I think it has increased. I think people look at that organization as a beacon. And there is a ton of Black grassroots organizations that are out there trying to make change, trying to do different things. I won’t say I’m educated about all of the work that is taking place within Black Lives Matter and what is taking place in all those grassroots organizations. But me personally, talking about Black Lives Matter and how it has affected me, I’m like man. Any Black person, I think, when you look at Black death over and over, not even only Black people, you look at outside the community, you’re like, okay. How do people feel if they see somebody Black on the news die? Ultimately, their head is like “Oh, another one.” And go about their day. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: It has become so repetitive to the point where it’s just like you sort of become numb to it. And I never want to be numb to Black death. But, ultimately, with the push of social media, these graphic scenes, these things that—They need justice. It needs to be brought to light. But I’m like, man. It affects people. It affects me. And I just don’t want it to affect me to the point where I’m just numb, completely. (chuckles) Ho: Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, you’re seeing it too much and you’re afraid that you will start to become numb because it’s just everywhere now. Adamsel: And like you said, after a while—I don’t know how other Black people feel. I feel how I’m going to feel. But, after a while, you start looking and you start wondering, when will things change? Have they changed? If they’ll ever change? And right now, you can’t answer that. But have they changed from when your parents were going through it, or your family went through it to now? I can’t say they have. I can say, “Oh, it’s visualized a lot more.” So, at what point do you get away from visualization and you get towards action, you get towards new policies, you get towards actual protections for people who are people but they’re not being treated like such? And then, when they’re not being treated like people, why is that? I know it’s going to be a sound bite. I know it’s going to be popular. This is probably going to make news media, companies money. Because everybody’s infuriated. Everybody’s enraged. They’re the talk of the town. And I just wish Black death wasn’t the talk of the town. I wish it never had to get to that. Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. What else have we not covered that you would like to cover? Adamsel: Um. Ho: Anything? Adamsel: Let’s see. (appears to be reading something off-screen) External…Institutional… Ho: And did you think of any more people that you’d like to give a shout out about? Adamsel: I did not. Like I said, they’re probably going to have to come text me and talk to me, if I forgot. (both laugh) But no. I don’t know if I have anything more that’s major. I think I probably spoke more in-depth than I thought I ended up needing to. But it was good. For me, it was a good conversation. I didn’t know it was going to go down that path or even we were going to get in-depth in all those questions. But I do appreciate it. I mean I do like the level of support that the library is trying to do to bring these thoughts together, I guess, before we get too old, and we start forgetting. Ho: Yeah. Adamsel: Especially like the part we played in all of it. Ho: Mm-hmm. That is really important, for sure. Adamsel: Yeah. And when you all showcase this, especially with memory, is this something if a student, in 2059, they’ll be scrolling, they’ll be able to go “Oh, University Archives, Black Student Center origin,” or something like that? Ho: Yeah. Basically. I don’t know that it would just be a bunch of videos available to a random scroller. But, for future researchers who are interested in the university’s history or the Black student experience on our school or in general in America or California or, you know, student life identity-focused centers, things like that. It’ll definitely be available to researchers. Adamsel: I hope that they have a great experience learning more about that. I feel like sometimes, when you learn more about the Black students experience in California or probably in most schools that probably are not, even historically, Black universities, but when I think of a Black student’s relationship with higher education and with inequity in the world, and then you play that into the normal wealth gap with African Americans, Black people in America, with anybody else, it’s a crazy contrast between how many of us are going to universities is a crazy contrast with inequities. And you would think more people would be like “Oh, let’s do what we can to make that look like a better option.” And it doesn’t start at college. It starts with the K-12 system as well. So, it’s just like our relationship with the education system between what we know is designed to make people, ultimately, better off, there’s something that’s going on that makes us look like that institution is not for me. I don’t want to be there. And I’m just like, man. It sucks. But I can’t act like college is for everyone. I can’t act like it appeals to everyone. It appeals to all of us differently. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: I just wish there was more to offer everybody who chose to go that route because there is so few of us as is. Ho: Yeah. It would be great if every person in America saw college as an option. Even if they chose not to go— Adamsel: Mm-hmm. Ho: —if they at least knew that it was an option that was viable for them if they wanted to go. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: That would be ideal for sure. Adamsel: Exactly. And I think that’s very true. Ho: So, if there is nothing else, I will stop the recording. Is there anything you want to end with before I stop the recording? Adamsel: Uh, no. I mean, I think the biggest thing is when it comes to ending, I’m very happy with the growth that the Center, Cal State San Marcos, has afforded me in my growth. I went to the university at 19. So, they’re some of the best years of growing in who I was as a leader. I think I knew who I was as a leader when I came. But through a mentorship, through role models, through networking, I think I became an even better person than I ever hoped I’d be by the time I left. And really staying connected, being able to be aligned with Black leaders, leaders of all different identities—because I used to only think I could only learn from Black people—but college taught me I could almost learn from anyone who is willing to teach, who’s willing to give out that helping hand. And it was a lovely place for me to grow. And I’m happy with the growth that I’ve achieved there. And I’m ultimately happy with the students that I’ve been able to see grow there as well and graduate. And even people that—It might not have been somebody who had their hand out for me, who looked like me when I first got to the university. But I was able to step up and get help from a lot of different people. And so, when somebody else came behind me, I just wanted to make sure okay, we continue to build that bridge and we make sure that these new students have the opportunity that wasn’t afforded to me. And even looking back to friends, Tiffaney, Jamaéla, even friends I met along the way, everyone was sort of like that key network to help keep Black students afloat and, ultimately, stay engaged through university and break all the barriers that we even thought were there. So, thanks to San Marcos. Thanks to the University Library. I know you all still got the mural probably in there. Ho: Yeah. Hopefully it stays there! Yeah, it’s beautiful. Adamsel: Yeah. I know. It’s amazing. But thank you for even interviewing. Ho: All right. Thanks for being part of it, Louis. Adamsel: No problem. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Title
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Adamsel, Louis. Interview May 28th, 2021
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Louis Adamsel speaks on his time as an undergraduate student at California State University San Marcos, aspects of his life as a student leader, his experience as a Black student and, later, as a staff member. Adamsel discusses his advocacy for the creation of the Black Student Center and the purpose the BSC serves to students, including the necessity of having a variety of resources in order to retain underserved students. He also speaks on mentorships and partnerships, both within the Black community and across identities and spaces.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-08
Subject
The topic of the resource
Black experience in America
California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated
California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center
California State University San Marcos -- Staff
California State University San Marcos -- Students
Civil rights
Student Success
Date
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2021-05-28
Creator
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Louis Adamsel
Contributor
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Jennifer Ho
Coverage
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Moreno Valley (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
Watts (Los Angeles, Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Louis Adamsel
Type
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Moving image
Format
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video
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright.</a>
Activists and activism
Black experience
Black Student Center Oral History Project
CSUSM history
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ef3e26077a9cd553721a81e3601c74a5.pdf
1b64de495fbc1d9da248f576e1cde29f
PDF Text
Text
LOUIS ADAMSEL
Transcript, interview
2021-05-28
Jennifer Ho: All right. Today is Friday, May 28th, 2021, at 10:07 a.m. I’m Jennifer Ho, archivist for Special
Collections at Cal State San Marcos, and today I’m interviewing Louis Adamsel for the Black Student
Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Students Center and the CSUSM
University Library Special Collections. Due to the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic, this interview is being
conducted virtually. Louis, thanks for being here with me today. How are you doing?
Louis Adamsel: I’m doing lovely. Great to be here. Thank you for the invite.
Ho: Yeah. All right. So, let’s get right to it. Tell me about your childhood. Where were you born? Where
did you grow up?
Adamsel: So, where I was born and ultimately where I grew up are two different places. I was born and I
spent early part of my childhood in Watts, California, Watts, Los Angeles, so beautiful place. Got early
experiences of education there. Just family, very beautiful place. But from Los Angeles, Watts, Los
Angeles, we ended up moving to the Inland Empire, Marino Valley. And that was more desert-type. It
was hotter but it was a great place to learn, grow up. And that’s where a majority of my childhood
friends are from, and I still have family there to this day.
Ho: Okay. Your parents still live in Marino Valley?
Adamsel: Yeah. My guardian. I was actually raised by my aunt, so—
Ho: Okay.
Adamsel: —yeah. My aunt, yes, she still stays out there.
Ho: All right. All right. Thank you. And so, did you go through high school in Marino Valley then?
Adamsel: Yeah. I went to Rancho Verde High. (chuckles) Home of the Mustangs. I graduated back then,
about 2012. So, almost 10 years ago, but—
Ho: Okay.
Adamsel: —but it was a lovely time.
Ho: All right. Great. Thank you. Tell me, how did you come to your understanding of Blackness?
Adamsel: I think I came to my understanding of Blackness just due to my environment. Like I said, I was
born in Watts, Los Angeles. And I know my aunt worked in the school systems out there. And so, from
early on, being close to schools, it was always great. I don’t know. I always was around Black people: my
cousins, sisters, everything. I think that was just normal to me, Blackness. But then I think the biggest
piece about Blackness was just about, when I was younger, I used to love reading. And so, with that
comes history, learning about who you are in relation to the world. And the earliest bits of history was, I
think, elementary school. But I can remember—it was 102nd Street School and I think there was a
ceremony rededicating the name to Florence Griffith Joiner Elementary School. And so, right then, there
was the history of a Black track star, one of the greatest female athletes. And boom! And my interest
just—that started it. But through reading, through writing, through understanding people, through
understanding different cultures, if you want to do anything in the world in relation to other people, I
think the biggest piece is understanding that relation to yourself and where you come from and,
ultimately, how the world perceives you. And especially being from Los Angeles and even understanding
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whether it’s relationships to police, understanding relationships with low-income communities, whether
or not you understand it all entirely when you’re young, you can see differences. You can understand
people and places where you might not see a specific race in a certain area, but you might see them
everywhere else. And then, you put the two and two together at a young age. And I think through
education and through reading and through history, you can sort of understand a little bit better. But,
yeah, I feel like I always knew. (chuckles)
Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Through experience and learning.
Adamsel: Yeah. Exactly.
Ho: (several words unintelligible) Definitely. You mentioned that you did a lot of reading. Was reading
something that you were interested in on your own, or did your aunt encourage you to read? Or was
this all through school?
Adamsel: I think reading was something that I did on my own a lot because I ultimately enjoyed it. I think
it was peaceful and it fit, once you understand letters and the relationships, it was like figuring out a
puzzle for me. I know my aunt, growing up in the household, reading was encouraged. Also having—I
remember I would have older siblings and there would be scholastic book things, and every student
reads at a specific level. And I had a sister who was three years older than me, and I would pick up,
sometimes, her books from school. And I would take her readings just to read them because I would get
bored if I was reading something or I finished series. But I was always in the library, always reading, and
always searching for whether it was non-fiction, fiction. I loved it. And I still do. But I feel like, when I was
younger, I think I used that as a way to—I like being by myself reading more than playing video games.
And it shows in my skills today. (chuckles)
Ho: Okay. That’s great. As a librarian, I can identify with that. (both laugh) Okay. So then, related
question. What were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black
experience? You kind of touched on this already but anything to add to that?
Adamsel: Well, yeah. So, I mean I think I was always taught about the Black experience through my
household. I was raised by women who thought it was really important to teach you about the way you
might be perceived, about the way you should act in public, treating people with respect. But the older I
get, I don’t think that was by coincidence, by choice. It was because they were older black women who
probably saw how black men were being treated in Los Angeles, specifically even anywhere you go. Even
in the Inland Empire, being mindful of your surroundings is a sense of security. I think that was
something that was always taught because one, you never know who’s watching; but then there’s also if
anything goes down, you might also be taken at a—how would you say? Like you’re not going to be
given the benefit of the doubt. I think that’s what was the message that was trying to be given to me at
a young age. And like I said, I didn’t really need anybody to tell me. I mean, I had family to tell me,
uncles, aunts, anything. They would tell me the basics of be mindful of what’s going on in the streets,
going to and from school, being in life. But then, also reading, whether it was historical books, whether it
was non-fictional accounts from people and different areas. I feel through travels—my family used to
send me off to different places, whether it was to visit family in Georgia or Detroit and allow me to soak
in environments, and “Hey, go use public transportation, but understand how to blend and go about
your daily life.” But in that Black experience, one, it was a lot of lived moments. It was a lot of learned
experience, just through hands-on teaching.
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Ho: Mm-hmm.
Adamsel: But through reading books, sometimes you can use other people’s experiences, other people’s
lives and allow that to shape your understanding of those relationships, intercultural. Like I said, it’s all
about how people perceive you. And then, based on their perception of how they might view the Black
man in America or even Black kids in America, they’re going to treat you a certain way. And it’s through
family teaching, I think I was able to realize, whether it was if I didn’t know the term “microaggression,” I
could tell if somebody was a little bit more disrespectful to me or if somebody had respect no matter
where you came from and, also, if I even wanted to bother with certain people just because of what I
thought their perception of me might have been.
Ho: Thank you. You mentioned visiting family in Georgia and other places. Can you briefly touch on your
experience in L.A. versus Georgia and then also in San Marcos. I know they are three totally different
locations in terms of demographics and culture. How was that like for you?
Adamsel: Yeah. So, I’ll touch on that. I mean, when it comes to Watts versus—and then, I’ll even bring in
like Marino Valley. So, Watts was a place where, even through history, one of the things that’s really
prominent that I used to like the most when I was a kid was just even the brief history of the Watts
Towers. These are towers in Watts but when you read—it’s sort of folklore but it’s a true story—but the
books talk about a man being able to build the Watts Towers out of recycled materials, old mosaic
artwork, everything and builds these—I forget how many towers are in there, but beautiful, beautiful
structures made out of restructured material. And every time I used to go to school, I used to see these
towers as a little kid. And I’m like “Man!” and try to find out the story about that. I used to—“Man, you
could do anything with recycled materials. It looks beautiful. It’s structurally sound, and people respect
it” and then also knowing that somebody came here to build that in a place that (clears throat) when
you think about Watts, sometimes people have mixed reviews about it. It might not be labeled as one of
the safest places for everybody. So, it’s one of those things that I used to like, being able to connect with
people, and also seeing the amount of black and brown people in that city. I think that I used to
appreciate that, and I think going to elementary, second grade out there, it was one of those things. My
introduction to the school system started there. But that was also where I had some of my first Black
teachers. And so, it was a lot of that there, even the afterschool programs. I feel like whether I knew it
or not, I was soaking in those experiences. And when I went to the Inland Empire, I mean it really wasn’t
like on a historical Black history tip in the Inland Empire. But that was also a growing city. And I think a
lot of people migrated out there. It was a growing place. And I felt like that allowed me to be in an
environment where it was sort of carefree. I could learn. I could sort of be— (clears throat) like my
environment wasn’t going to shape me any way. I don’t think my environment, and the Inland Empire, it
may not have been Black centric. But I still feel like there was opportunities for me to go any direction
that I wanted to. When I’m in my studies, I still found pockets of Black mentorship or a teacher here or
there. But I just feel like just the overall environment and that quality of life, it was just something
simple for a young man to grow up in. You still see those different relationships. You still see it play out.
You still would be taught by family. But it was a totally different environment than L.A., slightly less
busy. And I think I like that internally. And when I think about Georgia, visiting family whether it was
Georgia—I think one of the biggest things that I was able to do when I visited Georgia, one, is just see
the difference in Black culture as a kid. I remember going to Georgia and then, in the summers, some of
the friends and things that I would make in local parks or kicking it with family, you see them doing
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things different. You see Black kids playing baseball, whereas in California I’m like “We mainly play
basketball” over there. Or just different accents. And I have family from the south. So, I feel like the
accent really wasn’t a difference. But also, the historical areas, you could go down, visit MLK Museums
or Black History museums and just soak up, I think, the southern culture a little bit more than you
technically would on the west coast. I’m not saying the west coast doesn’t have a vibrant Black culture.
But when you come from a place where, whether the narrative wants to be blatantly told or not, you’re
going to have a museum that captured things that some people might want to forget. Or just in the
street names, or just in the local—even like the weather. You soak in so much from the people who have
been there, who have lived it for generations and generations. And I feel like that’s one of the things
that I still love to this day, traveling to different areas who their past has been, ultimately, a lot of Black
history. And they have to—there’s so many different ways for them to keep track of that history and
that culture. And it lives on through whether it’s food, music, style. I like it all, and it’s all a blend.
Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s great. Identity is really important, and knowing about your history and your
people really grounds you and shapes you. And it’s really important, for sure.
Adamsel: Yeah.
Ho: Definitely. Okay. So then, what about San Marcos? Why did you decide to come here, and then what
about the culture of this area brought you here? Why did you choose San Marcos?
Adamsel: Yeah. To be honest, one of my homeboys, one of my friends from high school, we used to be
in band together. And I think he came here—Damien Brandtley—he was a scholar here. But he had just
told me about it. He was like “Man, it’s way cooler, weather-wise.” It’s near the beach. It’s a beautiful
place. I had never been. But the Inland Empire was hot. And I was like “Yeah. I wouldn’t mind going
there.” And I think I had applied but when I had originally applied, I ended up going to the military first.
And then I think I was in Virginia and then I had tried again to apply. And then I ended up getting in. But I
didn’t come right away. So, I had never seen San Marcos. I had only heard the weather was decent
because it was semi-close to the beach. You can get there by local transportation. But when I came to
San Marcos, I think I appreciated the hills. I appreciated the calmness of San Marcos. I came in 2013. I
feel like they built a building every single year since then, and it’s developing. It’s not the calm city. Well,
it probably won’t be the calm city that I’d seen. But when I’d first seen it, it was just so calm and so
peaceful. And I think I enjoyed that peace. I won’t say it was like I was looking at San Marcos and I’m like
“Oh my god, the demographics of the Black population are just so amazing.” (Jennifer chuckles) You
know, I’m gonna feel enveloped. But I’m not the kind of person that says, “I need my group to be the
most dominant in the area to thrive.” I didn’t look at San Marcos like that. I looked at San Marcos as a
place where it was a young area. And I was like “Well, if this place is growing, I can grow with it” because
I can’t grow in a place where it’s like too much going on around me. I won’t probably be able to focus. I
was nervous about that. And, yeah, so San Marcos, a beautiful place. I feel like the demographics were
all over the place. But I still felt like it was a majority White. I know it became a Hispanic institution. So,
we get some trickles of culture there. Our Native American Land Act, that’s great. But one of the things I
always noticed around my time in school is just the rate, the percentages of Black Americans at Cal State
San Marcos, typically like 2.5, 3%. And that stayed the same. And I never really understood that dynamic
in the relationship to Black students, understanding do they know it’s here? Is it a cool place to be? But
it just didn’t seem—I feel like we got—there was Blackness here, but I felt like the community, anybody
that was here, typically had to band together because we were here together. But yeah, it feels like San
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Marcos wasn’t that place where I was just “I’m going because the Black population.” I think I went
because it was a young university, and I think the university was still making a name for itself. And so, I
came in at a time where I was like “Hey. I want to do that too.” So, we had similar visions. (chuckles)
Ho: Okay. That’s nice. I like how you said that you and the university would grow together.
Adamsel: Yeah.
Ho: That’s really great. Remind me what years were you at Cal State San Marcos?
Adamsel: I was there from 2013, Fall 2013, to Spring 2018.
Ho: Okay. Now tell me what’s your relationship to the Black Student Center? Why did you get involved?
Adamsel: Yeah. My relationship is I think I got involved because of friends. Being a young Black man on
Cal State San Marcos’s campus, even staying in the dorms my Freshmen year, one of the natures of my
relationship to campus used to be “Let me go to class, and then let me go back to the dorms, maybe
work on homework, maybe not.” But I felt like I had a lot of friends in the dorms. And that was my
relationship to campus. But then, ultimately, I started knowing more and more people who were upper
classmen. And I think it might have been like Kakailah or Tiffany Boyd, but different people had come
into my friend group and they’d be like “Oh, you know, on Tuesdays we’re going to this Black Student
Union meeting.” And I think ultimately my relationship with fellow Black students on campus started
thriving. So, when it came to, I believe it was like my, it might have been my second or third year in Cal
State San Marcos. And that was one of the things. I used to actually just be like a fly on the wall when it
came to the matters of BSC arriving, thinking about Jamailah, Tiffany. Yeah. We’d have conversations
about “Oh, you know, we’re thinking about Black Student Center, and thinking about what that could
mean for university Black students.” And I remember tagging along to like the BSU meetings to promote
this idea of “Hey, you know, this is coming! Are we having support from all of us? Is this something
that—if there’s ever going to be sign holding or different things like that.” Because I know Tiffany and
Jamailah were very involved with student government. They were the leaders at that time. I believe
Tiffany was president at that time. And that was one of those things where you were just making sure
that this is not only an idea coming from two heads but getting that buy-in from an entire community,
understanding like “Hey, you know, we have community but if we could have this space, the community
probably wouldn’t have to work as hard trying to organize together or even have that spot on campus to
where it’s undeniably yours.”
Ho: Mm-hmm.
Adamsel: And so, yeah. I feel like personally I don’t necessarily know. I guess in hindsight you never
really know how minor some of your actions might be. Reviewing documents differently, like it may
seem so minor. And for me it does, in relationship to the work that Jamailah and Tiffany and a lot of
other people have put in, even people not inside the Black community, allies from the LatinaX Center,
different other groups and different people around campus. I feel like my work was miniscule but
ultimately that Center thrived and came to be. And then, I feel like my relationship with the Center also
blossomed because, as Tiffany and Jamailah and some of those other strong pushers of this space, they
were there but then they left. And then I’m a student, ended up being involved in student government
and then, ultimately, became student government president and then I get to see even more. Being a
Black student government president, my relationship with Black students is probably going to be a little
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different in the sense that this should be a working relationship, for sure. If there’s Black students on
campus, I want them to see how seamless it should be to, one, do good work for the university, but then
also make sure you’re still seen in your spaces and not sort of having this gap between “Oh, that’s Louis.
But we have no idea who he is.” Or he has no ideas (of) what is the regular Black student facing on
campus. And I think that was one of the things that I really wanted to do, as a student, even as a student
leader, is always make sure that, one, I was seen in those spaces, but then encourage the students who
were in those spaces “Hey, because you’re a leader in this space, that means you could lead anywhere
on campus. Don’t forget to come back and make sure you’re in multiple spaces at once.” But I was like
“That’s what the university needs! They need to see Black people, whether you originated in the Center,
because (it’s) a place of comfort.” I’m like “They need to see you in every facet of the university because
like why not!” But that’s how I used to treat my relationship to the Black Student Center. I hope I
answered that question.
Ho: Yeah. For sure. Thank you. Okay. So, tell me. You mentioned Jamailah and Tiffany. Tell me about
different leaders on the project and their contributions, including any unsung heroes that maybe we
don’t know about because there are always unsung heroes.
Adamsel: Yeah. I’m totally blanking on people’s names and times because it was a while ago and Tiffany
and Jamailah might beat me up. I do remember there was a Karen Guzman. I remember she used to
work closely with Tiffany and Jamailah in getting support of different people.
Ho: Was she a student?
Adamsel: Yes. She was a student, and I don’t really know how she chooses to identify herself. She kind
of acts LatinaX. But I know she was a pusher of this space as well as a pusher for the Latina Center. Um,
man, other folks. I think the entire Black community might get a pat on the back for pushing this.
Thinking about a Kailah Wiggins, I believe she was one of the first people to tell me to go to a BSU
meeting and then, ultimately, leading me to work in conjunction with Tiffany and Jamailah. And, yeah,
anybody else who I forget, they(’re) going to probably have to come and talk to me because I’m
probably forgetting a lot more names. But there were a lot of unsung heroes. And, for me, even when it
comes to unsung heroes, that’s one of the things that I also think about, is as the space grew and as it
came to be what it is today, I’m thinking about even all the student workers who worked in the Black
Student Center when it first opened. I think about the first director, Anthony Jett. I think about where
the space is now from where it was, and I’m—even people like Dr. G or—man, some of our Student Life
and Leadership folks that I’m forgetting. But, again, from where it is then to where it is now, that
growth, those events, the events that were in person, our Black Faculty Staff Association, I feel like every
single Black group on the campus they organize in a way to where they needed to be in that space at
some point. And when it comes to that leadership on this, man, there were so many leaders. But it was
just something that Black students felt they needed. And then not only felt they needed but then came
together to get it. I think that was really powerful. And, yeah, like I said, it was a lot of unsung heroes.
But I think, ultimately, everyone’s last vision, from the time it was a spark in someone’s mind to the time
they had their first-year anniversary, even coming on multiple year anniversaries to our current director
now, I think everybody’s vision is really just to make that space for Black students, one, to feel
recognized, to feel seen but then also this is not a soaking pool. This should be the jump-off point. You
might come hear introduction to the university but you’re going to bounce off going in so many different
paths. But, ultimately, your first relationship to the university, unlike me, unlike some of the unsung
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heroes, our first relationship to the university wasn’t a Black Student Center. It was just relationships
with each other. And if you couldn’t walk past a Black student on campus without knowing their name,
that was the conversation. You go “Hey, hey. You know, I haven’t seen you before. You might be a
commuter. You might be—whoever you are but we need to know a name so we can at least invite you
to our next outing, our next poolside, our next, community service, anything.” But, yeah, thank you for
that question.
Ho: Sure, yeah. If you think of peoples’ names as we’re talking, please feel free to mention them.
Adamsel: Oh, yeah. Of course. I’ll make sure I’ll throw them out.
Ho: Okay. Great. So, you mentioned vision and purpose for the Black Student Center. Tell me what the
vision and mission and purpose were and what they are now, or as recently as—since we’re not at the
university anymore.
Adamsel: Man, you know, John—
Ho: I mean not word for word but in your opinion.
Adamsel: I’m like John might have to hurt me (Jen laughs) because I don’t know the mission, the vision
today. But I think that mission—because this is going to have to come off the top of the head and this is
going to be mission-based on what I felt, and vision based on what I’ve seen—I think that mission was to
create an environment to where Black students felt seen. They felt a little bit protected because they
were among people who shared their common experiences along with themselves. And I think it also
created a space to where you can be around your peers who share those same experiences. And then,
maybe, if people who were not a part of your ethnic background, they want to come in and try to be an
ally, try to learn a little bit. It also creates a space for other people to come in and see you in your
spaces, how you interact, the events that you put on, and hopefully learn a little bit about your
community so they could be better people, better allies. I think the vision, when it comes to the space, is
making sure you achieve that Black excellence in the school setting, feel supported by your peers. But
then it also—the vision is bringing in that Black faculty and staff component, making sure these students
are supported, making sure that if there are other allies in the faculty staff around campus, like “Hey, if
you want to come find this prominent group of Black students, people who are involved, if you need to
pull things, this creates a space where everybody is on campus.” And let’s say they’re looking for Black
students to get involved or mentor, it allows you that area to where you can pull from. And even if
you’re not solely pulling from that space as a resource of Black students, it also allows that to be a
beacon on campus for Black students as they’re coming, as they’re commuting, like “Hey. I didn’t know
this space existed. Boom! Let me pop in there. I don’t only have to be in like a commuter line. Or I don’t
only have to be in a library study room.” And then going back to that connectivity and that nature,
having that Black Student Center is that homing beacon when we’re on campus. I feel like it adds to our
retention, or it should add to the retention. I’m not going to spit out the numbers and say has this done
what we expected it to do? But that vision is to increase that campus presence, to increase your
interaction with the campus because we all understand building a relationship with a space. Building
that relationship with a space will ultimately enhance your relationship to the university. Getting more
involved, typically more times than not, will allow students to keep their GPA up, their GPA
requirements on things, be a little bit more focused, have more peers around, build better relationships.
So, you end up leaving college better than you found it but then you also leave college with a larger
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network, a couple more experiences—some great experiences at that—and a little bit more
understanding of who you are in relationship to the entire world.
Ho: Thank you. So, these items that you mention—increasing your network, increasing retention, being
a beacon for Black students—are these what the students and faculty and staff had in mind when they
were pushing for the Black Student Center? Or was there anything else?
Adamsel: Yeah. I think they were pushing for that, and I think some of the students would say I
sometimes debate with the phrase “Safe Space.” Yeah, this is a space for you to grow. I don’t
necessarily—I work crisis. I don’t necessarily think every single space is safe. I still—We got to do our
due diligence. But when we look at the space, I think people wanted it to be a space where they can
come see a little bit of history, learn a little bit about their peers. And, ultimately, this is the catalyst for
Black students, whether it was research, tutoring. This is the hub. And I think that was the vision that
Black faculty, staff, and students wanted to see because, when we came on campus, just the fact of
we’re walking up Chavez stairs just like the rest of them, and we’d go all the way to the back of the
school. And this is 2013. We go all the way to the back of the school still to meet in like Mark 101, Mark
103, 102. And that was our commute. And we’d see everybody at U-hour. We’re walking all the way
across campus or sometimes we’d be in SBSB, you know, walk across campus. We always had to do a
migration. But even when the Black—I mean, not the Black student but when the USU was built, the
University Student Union was built, we see all these groups in the space. We understand what could be
possible, what could be done. But we didn’t have it. And, pushing for that, it’s like okay. Well, we know
what we could have. They look like they’re having a good time. They look like their events are awesome.
There’s cross-functioning, cross-collaboration going on. There’s support from the university. There is
support from Student Life and Leadership. There’s support from our Vice President of Student University
Affairs. All these groups have it. We don’t. So, when you see that support from the university, it makes
you look and say it looks like in some shape or form, it may not be in entirety that the university is
supporting, but just these spaces existing on Cal State San Marco’s campus, that allowed Black students
to realize like wow! This is how the university chose to support this, and this is how we are supported.
And when you look at differences, differences can sometimes be blatant explanations without needing
to say anything. The imagery that I see, the events that I see put on, I’m walking my day-to-day path
through the university. I’m feeling the relationship that I am in with the university. But somebody else
might feel their relationship is different, based on what they identify with, based on the spaces they can
go into and see themselves represented, whether it’s in imagery, whether it’s in dialogue, whether it’s
events. And if I get events coming up the end of January ‘til the beginning of March, then I know like oh,
wow! This is how you see me. This is how you choose to view me. And this is going to be your
relationship with me.
Ho: Thank you. I have a list of questions here, but I went way off, just following your— (both chuckle)
Adamsel: Oh. It’s all right.
Ho: Okay. So, did you experience or witness any push back to the creation of the Black Student Center?
Adamsel: Yeah. But I think I experienced it in a multitude of ways. I think there was push back coming
from places that you never would think.
Ho: Like what?
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Adamsel: I think there was push back from student government, on meetings when there would be
topics in conversation where it’s like public, like you could see people speaking against bringing on the
Black Student Center. And to be honest, I don’t think I really was in those meetings that much, invested.
But when I was there, I could see it, or even reading the meeting minutes afterwards, I’m like dang! I
didn’t know this person was against it or for it. When the culmination of the Center was starting, I think
Cal State San Marcos might have posted something about it, one way or another. And I think there was a
multitude of comments, hundreds of comments where it was like “We don’t need spaces for Black
people,” dah, dah, dah, dah. It’s crazy to see people just against cultural identifiable spaces. It’s like
“Why do you all need a safe space? We don’t have one.” And they don’t understand that relationship.
Or “Why do you feel like you need to go into a Black Student Center? We think you’re going to just hide
out in there. This doesn’t need to be a space for your hiding. If you want to be accepted, then go places
where everybody is and then you’ll be accepted.”
Ho: Hhmmm.
Adamsel: And it’s just funny how people’s understanding of what you mean by “safe space” means or
what some people meant by having a Center, whether it talks about their identity needs, their racial
identity needs. I’m just like, man. For me, I think sometimes the pushback was very weird. Or it wouldn’t
be pushback, but when you look at the amount of people that felt uncomfortable just walking past our
spaces or even being in the space, and you could see a person who wasn’t Black. They might meet
somebody who’s Black that’s in the space, might be a friend. But then they’d be lingering at the door
like “Hey. Can you come on out?” People just feel awkward when they go into a space that, overall, the
majority doesn’t look like them. They’re scared to go in, and they feel awkward going in. But then, when
you say, “This is how I feel when everywhere doesn’t look like me,” it’s hard for them to picture it. And
I’m like, “Oh. You feel that way when you come into our space. That’s how I feel (when) I’m in your
space.” But it’s funny when people can’t do a quick flip in their mind and see like ah! This is probably
why you want it and need it. (chuckles)
Ho: Yeah. I get what you’re saying. I know who you’re talking about. (both laugh) All right. What did
Uiversity Administration communicate was their vision for the Black Student Center, if you remember?
Adamsel: Mmm, I don’t know. I know when I was a senior, I did an independent study project with
Dream a Moon. And I spoke about the—I forget the title of this independent reader study project—but I
spoke about how the university can bring forward something like a Black Student Center and they hope
that it would—I think their vision was this will fix all of our problems with the Black community, and we
will make this space. And your relationship with the campus, Black students’ relationships with the
university, ultimately it will be fixed. And, for me, I think in my research—that was one of the things that
I noticed because I felt a way about it—I was like yeah, just because there’s a Black Student Center, that
doesn’t mean that the university has fully acknowledged everything that the Black students are going
through and then is working to fix (it). Because the Black Student Center is the smallest center in the
university student union. But it’s just one center. It only had one director. The budget may have been
whatever it was. It was probably—still, it’s a budget. It’s limited. And if the organization, the university,
doesn’t change, those Black students that are in that space still don’t feel confident to go out and be
leaders on campus. They still might not feel confident to go off and explore different areas. I didn’t
necessarily want the Black Student Center to be a safe haven. I wanted it to be a place of exploration,
research. You start here but you go anywhere you want on campus. But in order for you to feel like you
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can be anywhere on campus, that campus has to be inviting. That campus has to be doing more from
the top. We need to see it probably in leadership. We need to see it in mentorship. We need to see it in
recruitment and retention rates. And these are all things that I cared about. And so, when I was on
campus, I worked in whether it was like hiring diversity, on diversity committees, or sitting in African
American retention committees. I see the numbers. I see what we’re doing. But ultimately, all that just
funneled my thoughts and we’re not doing enough because if we were doing enough, they would feel
comfortable. They wouldn’t want to leave. They would be present. But all the people that were being
present, again, they consolidated in that Center. And I don’t think it was the Center’s fault. I think it was
just acknowledgment that the university thought the Center was the end all, be all. But Black students,
people, we naturally need more. We want more. But it takes more than just a space to make anybody
feel comfortable to say, “Okay. This university is it. I want to be, ultimately, involved.” And so, yeah, just
going off that. I don’t feel that the university administration really—whatever their vision was, I don’t
think they pushed it, from top to bottom. It wasn’t reflected in policies. It wasn’t reflected in hiring. It
wasn’t reflected in Black faculty and staff numbers. I just didn’t see it. But that’s just me. If there’s some
numbers out there that have prove me wrong, show them. (both laugh)
Ho: So, are you saying that, based on what you saw, Administration was just like “Okay. Here’s your
Center. That’s it. We gave you enough.” Is that, basically, the impression you got?
Adamsel: Yeah. That was basically it. I think that the Center was that space to give. It was a place like
“We’re going to give this to you. You have it. This should be enough. And we’re going to take a step
back.” This is a smaller population. You might be 2.5-3% but this is not a population. I think that should
have probably been a red flag. This is a population to cultivate. This is a population—it may be a small
representation of our campus but hey, if we cultivate this group, if we make sure we do everything in
our power that this group succeeds, we might not be getting monies from federal sources or resources
or anything like that. But, for me, I realize taking that initiative and putting that foot forward for any
student, I feel like we have pockets of Black faculty and staff overworking to make sure we felt accepted.
And there were students who wanted to make sure that the next student felt accepted. But man, that
would have felt good coming from the university with university backing, with programs and resources
from the chomp. I think about people like Floyd Lai of the Cross-Cultural Center, Andreas Vivella, even
Francisco Checa, EOP. All these other groups, all these other resources may have been there for
underserved students and even showing Black students “Hey, you call can do mentorships. You all can
have that.” And I love watching other spaces, how they worked and how other groups, even if you come
from a minority represented population—looking at CAMP students, TRIO, even international
students—every population on our campus has the ability to get backing and support and budget
outlined for that specific thing. And I loved—I always imagined it like rungs on a ladder. If I was a LatinX
student or if I was a white student, how many rungs on the ladder—if I slipped and fell off this ladder—
how many rungs would I hit on this ladder until I fell off into nothingness? Am I going to see counselors I
could potentially train with? Are there student groups that I could reach out to? Are there counselors or
things or events that are specifically targeted to me to where I can hit every step at Cal State San Marcos
before I ultimately fall off? And therefore, I feel like Black students, especially Black male students, Black
female students, man, there’s not a lot of opportunities to pick you up if you fail. If you fail your first
year, your second year, and you decide to fall off the wayside and not come back, how many people or
how many organizations would be there to “Oh, we’re really geared towards retention. We’re really
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geared to making sure you felt safe, comfortable, understood.” I didn’t see that much. And so, for me,
that was always on the forefront of my head.
Ho: Thank you. Okay. Can you tell me about—Actually, were you at the grand opening of the Black
Student Center?
Adamsel: Yeah. It was a lovely event.
Ho: Okay. All right. Have you seen the same level of support for the Center over the years since it
opened?
Adamsel: When it opened, I did see some support. I think I saw some university administration go in
there and at least try to visit the space. And I think I saw a lot of faculty members across— whether they
were in the arts, history, communications professors. I feel like a lot of people chose to partner with the
Black Student Center when it first opened. And I saw events out the wazoo. But I think the biggest thing
when—And so we’re focusing on partnerships, right?
Ho: Mm-hmm.
Adamsel: Yeah. So, I think a lot of people came, especially from the opening. Well, it was even before
the opening because I feel like it was open a little bit before the grand opening. And so, I feel a lot of
people across the university wanted to come and see it, if they supported it. And they even urged their
students to go out and come support it. And the grand opening was a great event with performances,
food. I believe the president even spoke at the grand opening. And so, seeing that representation from
university administration and seeing that support, it showcased like oh, this is what it could be. And the
amount of students that were able to come and just because it was a space, whether they wanted to
see it or not, they were like wow! Intrigued that this is all happening. And this might be a smaller Center
but the things that took place, whether it was on the grand opening day or right after and the years to
come, it seemed like it was booming. I think ultimately the Center has transformed from the things that
it has done now, one, because of Covid, but even before Covid, I feel like the transformation was really
geared at involvement, events, and then really gearing up partnerships. And I think, especially with the
hiring of—I forget her title but sort of like the overall—Gail Colevant, Dr. Gail Colevant, what her role in
managing all the spaces and those leaders from all those spaces, being able to come together. I image
the partnerships are even on another scale now because they are able to communicate calendars and
everything. But it’s nice to see the events just being churned out. It’s nice to see that the students have
such a greater involvement. And I think—because before, when the Center first started, I think the
university presence was like “Hey. Let’s let this Center cultivate.” But now I’m starting to see more “Hey,
Black Students. We’re having new policies come out about retention. We’re having new policies come
out about—We’re going to go into a study about the Black student experience, especially working with
that BSC, Black Student Center.” So, I see the difference and before it was “Hey. We’re going to let the
Black Student Center thrive and flourish by itself.” It can go up in flames or it can fly off into the sunset.
But I didn’t see more policies supporting the students on a microlevel. Are we talking about how we’re
getting students in? Are we talking about how we’re keeping them here. Hey, if the BSC is doing this, are
the faculty/staff doing this? Is the university doing this? The onus shouldn’t only be on the students.
What about the environment that they’re in? and I think, especially with people going back to campus
this Fall, in the Fall of 2021, I’m excited to see hey, are those university policies that are slowly being
implemented, what are they doing to make sure that we’re retaining? And not only retaining, are we
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growing? Is there any possibility of getting past that 3%? Is there any possibility to make students feel
comfortable on this campus? And it can be done. But it starts off with things like policies and people
really reviewing. One of the things that I pushed back on, even when I was a student, as student
government president, I even made that motion to say, “Hey. ASI should separate” because we have the
Gender Equity Center and the LGBTQA Center, both great centers, but ASI was having them on their
budget. Whereas the university budgets for Centers were different. And I just looked at it like wow. This
is the Black Student Center. ASI doesn’t have the money in their budget. Cross Cultural Center is not on
our budget. It’s all different. And when I look at the amount of differences, man, this is a lack of equity.
And so, especially based on population, that’s all I care about. Are we going to give students in every
single space the same opportunity to feel seen, feel accepted, and then also make sure that these
university areas have great cross-functional relationships so people don’t feel afraid to learn and
support another group, even if you’re not a part of that group?
Ho: Mm-hmm.
Adamsel: And I think if the university continues on that equity-based leadership, that thought process,
they could get a much better space of identifying there’s an issue, even if students bring it up, even if
you’re being reactive. If students bring up an issue, taking that time to listen to what the students are
saying and say “Oh, they say they don’t feel supported. What can we do? They say there’s not enough
resources for them. What can we do?” But, yeah, it starts with leadership. It starts with policy. And I
think that’s the biggest thing.
Ho: Definitely. Thank you for that. Going back a little, you mentioned some partnerships between the
different centers. Do the different centers work together a lot in your experience?
Adamsel: I think it could be better, at least from what I’ve seen. I do think a lot of times, when I was a
student, I used to see other spaces come into the BSC, the Black Student Center, dropping off flyers and
say “Hey, make sure you all come to my event,” drop off flyers and say “Come. Come. Come.” But it was
never like y’all are doing something. We wholeheartedly want to support you. And there would be some
opportunity for that. I don’t want to say none of these spaces I ever supported. But I did see some
spaces would come into the Black Student Center to promote, and you know, “Hey. Bring your people.
Yeah, we got free food. We got—” Maybe they had the budget to do free food. But they’d be like “Hey,
you know, we got this. Come.” But when it was, we’re promoting, whether it was historical movie night
or historical U-hour, sometimes they would be slow to come. And I think one of the things, especially
from our first Director, Anthony Jett, that was one of the things that he would do, is work on those
relationships. And I think, even from Anthony Jett to John Rawlins, those relationships as a Black Student
Center Director are very important. But then it also—one of the things that I also have to acknowledge
about those relationships as a Director to the university is they probably have so many different things
and policies and ideas that they have to work on and manage as well as events. So, it depends on their
relationships. But then I know it also probably depends on the people in those spaces, continuously
building that comfort and that support network. And the people in other spaces, we all have to be in
that mindset of okay, I’m going to help you get to that next step because either I’m there or I just want
to help you out of the kindness of my heart. And I think people, the more that they started coming out
and interacting with the Black Student Center, especially from those different identity or cultural spaces,
they ultimately got more comfortable, more and more, to do it with the Black Student Center. And
nowadays, you see collaboration of events starting, Boom! at the beginning of the semester. We’re
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going to all get out there, showcase what we all have. And then, I’m starting to see different—You know,
“Let’s look at this culture through your lens.” Or “We’re going to all go to the Black Student Center, in
collaboration with—” So, I see these relationships are booming.
Ho. Mm-hmm.
Adamsel: You know, longevity, time, people, these relationships are only going to get stronger. I think in
the first couple years, first year or two, we’re going to see that mesh sort of happening and what’s our
relationship to each other? How can we support each other? You’re sort of figuring that out. And I think
a lot of the other spaces—I think that’s one of the things they had on the Black Student Center is they
had probably been there for a little bit. So, maybe that’s one of the things that they were also able to
do, sort of give that road map. “Oh, the Black Student Center can host an event like this,” or “We can
collaborate with Student Life and Leadership like this.” So, I appreciated seeing that, the growing pains,
the relationship building. But ultimately, I don’t think it’s anything that’s especially to a relationship
building, I don’t think it’s anything that’s built overnight. And it's just a continuous effort and a
continuous mindset to say this is what we want to do, and we really want to support this group of
students, this area, the best way we can. And it has to come from the entire community.
Ho: Thank you. You mentioned Historical U-Hour, Historical Moving On. Is that what you said?
Adamsel: Historical with what?
Ho: I don’t know. In terms of programming, you mentioned Historical U-Hour, and then Historical
something else. And I was just wondering what those were.
Adamsel: Yeah. So, U-Hour, 12-1 hour on the university. And I think it’s like Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Well, it may have only been Tuesday. I think it was Tuesday and Thursday when there’s typically no
class, from 12-1. So, typically groups and events would take place 12-1. And so, historically, when it
came to U-Hour, some of these groups and events had already been out there, whether it’s promoting
events, doing different things. And I think they took those experiences, one, it showed the Black Student
Union this is how it’s done. And then, the Black Student Union, when the BSC came to be, it was like
Boom! We have students who already identify how to throw events, how to work with Student Life and
Leadership or ASI to get funding. And even when we got directors—Now, our directors probably have
budgets and so they’re able to let us know how they can partner and make the best things for students.
But those other spaces, in that relationship, they also use that historical nature of U-Hour to partner, do
partnerships, even afternoon events, different things like that. So, I did like that time. And like I said, it’s
just ultimately growth together and, through time and longevity, probably get that rhythm of, hey, this
partnership was straight. Let’s continue on that partnership. Or what can we do to enhance anything
that we’re doing?
Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. So, tell me, in your experience, what has been the Black Student Center’s
impact on the campus community, as well as you personally?
Adamsel: I think their impact on the campus community has been amazing. It has allowed the university
to have the support in a different way. (looks off the right in thought) So, wait. Can you repeat that
question because I want to try to connect that?
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Ho: Sure. Yeah. Sure. What’s been the BSC’s impact on the campus community as well as the impact on
you, personally?
Adamsel: Okay. So, the campus community I think is impacted. It’s a decent impact. It’s not anything
that has caused waves of change, at least when it first came. And, to this day, I think it can be a beacon
of change. But the impact was it gave students a beacon, Black students particularly. It gave us an area
to where it’s like, okay, orientation efforts. Can we focus on making sure that they’re coming?
Communications are routed through the BSC. Can we get representation that way? Our impact with
involvement, it has impacted that. It has allowed Black students to take up leadership roles in areas,
whether they’re student workers, whether it is giving tours to different people about the space. It has
allowed us to host a majority of different things and even allowed areas like Black Student Union to
meet or hold events. It has been a catalyst for the students that were there as well as faculty and staff to
understand like hey, if I wanted to come during U-Hour and sit and learn or sit and chat with current
students about what I do, maybe opportunities for mentorship, I’m like wow! They already know where
they can come to do that or come to get information on how to do it and how to further impact our
students. So, I feel like the impact has really been on a community level. It has been broadening. It has
allowed faculty, staff from all areas in university leadership, all areas to have a beacon point to not really
see the entire Black population but to see, okay, if we wanted to talk to people who see current
students or even get feedback, bounce ideas off, how can we best serve the needs of students today? At
least it gives the university—this could probably be like the north star along with some of the Black
student organizations. And when I talk about another piece, it’s organization, you know. If students have
issues or they feel like they can’t go to student government or they want to talk about administrative or
other things like that, the Black Student Center Director also can create that environment to where now
it’s okay, you have another person in the leadership capacity through his relationships, through her
relationships. I don’t want to say like his or her because they might see this on video in a couple of
years. It might be a different person. (chuckles) But that director can be another person to carry their
ideas forward. And, yeah, so the impact. Again, amazing for what it’s doing now. Can it be better? Yes.
We all want the best for that space. But I think ultimately that impact has impacted the Black student
life on campus in a decent way. And now, the impact of Black Student Center, I want it to have an
impact on policy in the entire university as a whole to where hopefully we get to a point where you ask
somebody how to get to the Black Student Center. Hopefully any faculty on campus can let you know
where it is, or they understand about the importance of why it’s there and make some time in their role
on Cal State San Marcos to visit. Now, when you get into the impact that it had on me, I’m the kind of
person—I feel like I would have been who I was regardless of the space. I’m that kind of person. I feel
like I would have been a great human being. I would have been a decent human being. But when it
comes to the Black Student Center now, my opportunity for change started way before that because I
feel like it was just being around my peers in a different way. And I think that initiation started when I
got involved with the Black Student Union, even bringing Omega Psi Phi, which is a historically Black
fraternity on campus. We are able to join that. And I think just around my peers, and it started with the
BSU. It started with involvement with other organizations. But when the BSC came, I’m like man. It kept
me grounded. It kept me—My ear was always to the needs of all students, but specifically Black
students. And then I also saw myself represented. I felt like I was able to provide feedback and talk to
people with similar experiences as me. I was able to get involved with mentorship areas. I think that
relationship that I had, even when I became a staff at Cal State San Marcos, I was even able to have a
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relationship with John and some of the other students and meeting with Black male students and faculty
and staff, meeting with all students, holding events, be faculty advisors for different organizations. It
was lovely and I think their impact on me, it’s profound. Like I said, it just—I don’t know—it motivated
me to do better for them to make sure that I could always support them because that’s what I felt I
needed. And I think that’s one of the best parts about this space is, as a Black student, if you choose to
get involved, you’re going to notice gaps in what you see or what you felt as a student. And ultimately,
when you have a chance to get involved in any capacity, you’re going to figure out, okay, how do I make
the next student not feel how I felt if I felt discontent. And when it comes to Black students in Black
spaces, they might have extra challenges on how they may feel discontent, whether it’s through
microaggressions, whether it’s through lack of understanding, whether it’s through lack of Black
leadership, whether it’s anything. So, taking it a step further, especially with Black students, I’m like
“Hey. We probably noticed the same things. You probably felt the same way I felt when you first got
here. You probably feel like there is not enough black representation at this space. But what can I do to
bridge that gap? What can I do to make sure that if I could take a little bit of that away, will I get you to
stay another semester? Let’s get you into something that you actually like to do. And if not, how about I
point you into the direction of the doctor Mahatmas, the doctor Jeffrey Gilmores, the professor Rawlins,
the Black Student Center Director. What can we do to make sure somewhere along the way,” —even
LaPorcha, over at Student Life when she was here—“what can we do to tap you into someone that can
help you? And I think about the people like Gezai Berhane up in Student Life and Leadership or Marilyn
Williams, Ariel Stephenson. And that was also an impact point for them, too. They are working in Office
of Diversity or Student Life and Leadership and Black people as well, the BFSA, all those folks are going
right there and getting people involved where they are because it’s like they know you get involved, you
start coming, you start insisting, you’re going to have a job to do on the campus. You’re going to
associate this campus with a little bit more than just go to class, go home, go to class, go to the BSC, go
home. You’re getting some skin in the game. So, I think that’s what everybody started doing and
ultimately that’s what—I didn’t need the BSC to do it, but I think the students in the BSC ultimately gave
me way more skin in the game than I wanted. But it was necessary, and I loved them for it.
Ho: That’s lovely, thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Two more questions, and they can be as short or as
long as you want but are there any, I don’t know, behind the scenes stories you want to share? Or
anything else you want to say about the Black Student Center or your time at Cal State San Marcos so
that one hundred years from now, when you and I are gone, the stories are going to still exist. Anything
else?
Adamsel: I felt I got some fabulous stories about my time at San Marcos, but I don’t know if I care to go
into all of them. I think I did sort of tell one about—I spoke about being a student government leader
and, lightly, I’d spoke about addressing the fact that ASI was housing two spaces. And we didn’t house
the BSC, the Black Student Center. The Latina Center was not sponsored by us. The Cross-Cultural Center
wasn’t sponsored by us. But we sponsored the LGBTQA and Gender Equity Center. And, for me, I think
it’s so weird being in the position of leadership and seeing—And it may not even feel like inequity to
people. But people can live life and you can be doing something, and you can look at budgeting and
everything like that and you can be like “Wow, I’m housing these two spaces.” And then I look at Black
Student Center and it’s not equity. They’re not getting the same—They’re not even probably getting the
same percentage. Or look at the Cross-Cultural Center. See what people are able to do in the scope of a
university and see what the university values. And the university can say they value something, they
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value Black students. But we don’t all have the same sort of carrot, sort of the same opportunity to have
the quality of events, everything. And I think that was one of the things that—It was weird because
when I’d spoke about cutting ASI off away from those two spaces, (sighs) man, the directors, the people,
the students in those spaces. That was like a funny time for me because I’m a leader. And I spoke to my
Board about it, and I was like “Hey man, they’ve got to probably come off this budget.” One, students
were not happy. There was a small pocket of students and I don’t want to take anything away from my
friends and colleagues in Gender Equity Center and LGBTQA because I don’t think that’s something that
a student should protest. But students were right because ASI student fees, they come out of
everybody. And I think some of the students were upset that my student fees are coming out of
something and paying and sponsoring something I don’t believe in.
Ho: Hhmmm.
Adamsel: And as a student, I was like “Man. These people are talking crazy! But they’re right.” Because if
I believe in—You could believe in any—I could believe in McDonald’s. If I go choose to spend my money
at McDonald’s, that’s great. But I shouldn’t be able to take your money, if you don’t believe in
McDonald’s, and spend it at McDonald’s.
Ho: Mm-hmm.
Adamsel: But as students, I’m like how do you combat this? And then you don’t have to combat it. I
think the university should create a space to where they’re like ‘Here, we believe in our Native American
brothers and sisters whose land this is. Here, we believe in Chican/X, Latin/X students. We believe and
support Black students. We believe and support all gender identities.’” I’m like “That’s the university.
That’s what the university should say.” And if people step into the university, they should understand
this is a place where we value all of that.
Ho: Mm-hmm.
Adamsel: Now, if their monies don’t—Their monies are probably going to go to it because they pay
tuition. You’re going to pay tuition, that’s cool. But it shouldn’t be in a place where they can attack it.
And student government was a place that policies could change, where they can attack it. I’m like I’m
president today, but if a president 10 years from now chose to dissolve these places—I mean, it’ll
probably be hard to do but under student government these places are under attack. And unless you
have all the spaces in that area under attack, then you can’t do it. Unless you have all those spaces
getting the same budget, you shouldn’t be able to do it. But the one thing that stuck with me was the
amount of students talking to me, as a Black man on campus, loved by some, hated by some. But they
came to attack me, to tell me I didn’t care about those spaces. I remember that. They came to tell me I
didn’t know the definition. You know, I’m a Black man, senior on campus, Communication major. I love
it all. Educated. And they came to tell me “You don’t know the definition of intersectionality. You don’t
understand us.” And all I’m trying to do is make sure when I go see Black students in their space that
they’ve got the same resources. I’m looking at ASI. We can push out hundreds of events for our different
centers that we hold. But for other areas we don’t print. We don’t host events for them. We don’t do
that. And I wanted to mentally take ASI away from serving some and make sure we push the university. I
think, when I used to have meetings with President Haynes, I spoke to her and I was like—I was doing
my own research, my own due diligence, going through old meeting minutes to figure out why do we
keep these spaces? And Black Student Center came up, Latina Center came up. What made the
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university take those spaces? And through research, through communication with Dr. Checa, Marina
Checa, and talking to ASI—I was even looking at the inaugural addresses that President Haynes had. And
I think sometime along the line, I think it was like 2104 or something like that, she was like “We value
the LGBTQA Gender Equity Center.” I took that and ran with it. (chuckles) And I was in a meeting with
her, and I was like “People are attacking these ASI spaces. What can we do to make sure these spaces, as
well as the Black Student Center, Cross-Cultural Center, Latina Center, I want to make sure that these
spaces all have that umbrella.”
Ho: Mm-hmm.
Adamsel: And then, a couple of months later, I think I was on a hiring committee for Dr. Gayle Colevant.
(laughs) It was lovely to see her being there in that space, all under the same umbrella like I envisioned,
and then ASI being a new catalyst where you see the food pantry vision, the student at events side with
CAB, the Board representing student needs. You can’t look at ASI now and try to attack any piece
because every single piece services everyone. And not only that, ASI is now that space to where they can
connect to every single identity space, cultural space, and again, allow each one to grow in their own
right. And I’m so proud of that but I think coming into a space where you’re a Black man at Cal State San
Marcos and people are attacking you for wanting everything to be equal, and to let you know even
though people necessarily route for you, when something is—if they deem something is attacking them,
instead of understanding, sometimes, first they’ll be uncomfortable and then they’ll attack. And then,
you just hope years down the line as time goes on, you’re like “Okay. I hope that you can see what my
vision was, and your relationship in that, and you lost nothing by promoting me.” And sometimes, I think
people think like “If we try to make everything—I’m going to lose something, or my salary might go
down or my events or who’s going to do this?” No. You don’t lose nothing by making sure that everyone
has a piece of the whole. And yeah, so that was a fun story.
Ho: Yeah.
Adamsel: I don’t know if all of that is in meeting minutes somewhere. But I laugh thinking about the
past. (chuckles)
Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that when the Gender Equity Center and the LGBT Center
were under ASI, you wanted to move them over to the university but there was push back for you
moving those two centers to the university?
Adamsel: Yeah. And my Board—I spoke to my executive Board, and I was like “Got a crazy idea.” And
when Louis has got crazy ideas, I’m the President. My team, bless them, they supported me. I explained
it. I spoke about equity. I spoke about what the vision was, and I hoped they got it. And so, we took that
to the main Board of Directors, and I said, “This is what I want to do.” Now, when those Centers and
those leaders and some of those students got wind of it, then there was an opportunity for them to
come and tell me to my face about their feelings, their emotions, how what I was doing was wrong, how
much they hated that thought that we could just push them out. I think they thought ASI is kicking you
to the curb because there is some—I don’t know if they thought ASI—They thought Louis was— (laughs)
Ho: It was more personal.
Adamsel: —and to see ASI, oh—even though we had a great relationship before then, instantly it
became why can’t we be a part of ASI anymore? Even though our missions are the same—I mean, are
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not the same. Our visions are different. What we’re servicing on a day-to-day basis is different. It just
became a different relationship instantly the moment I brought that to the forefront. And like I said, I
think it’s because the mindset relationship to I’m going to lose something if you do X, Y, or Z. And now,
upon explaining it, some of those students in those spaces came to me, “Louis, love you. When I first
heard about it, I was not cool with it. But when you explained it, it made sense.” And then some were
like “I ain’t talking to you.” (laughs) And that’s understood. And the leadership, pro-staff, students, no
matter how they felt, I knew how I felt about equity. I knew how I felt as a Black student. I knew how I
felt when you walk into events and you see what people are able to do, the magnitude, the budget, the
promotion, and you’re like “Wow, that space can’t do that.” And there are still students to this day that
don’t have spaces. But I’m like, “Man. In the future, Cal State San Marcos is going to grow and grow and
continue to make spaces for people and identities. If we choose to make spaces, can we ultimately
decide that this will be under that umbrella? And student government can be a little bit more of an
assisting tool as a jump-off point, as a financial resource for all students.” But I just didn’t want it to be
anything that people combatted. And I was really surprised to see pushback. But it happens.
Ho: Yeah. For sure. And when you’re in a position like you were in, you’re always going to have to deal
with it, I suppose.
Adamsel: Yeah. And I think I knew that. But I think pushback is weird coming from people who also very
well are attacked.
Ho: Mm-hmm.
Adamsel: People are marginalized. People are—They may face similar struggles or very different
struggles than me. But when I get to a point of leadership, I want people—If I’m acknowledging the
issues that you may have in society or in life or in navigating the university, I want you to be able to sort
of have the same selfless nature and acknowledge how things might not be equal to anyone. And when
we can do that, then it’s like okay, we can always have a conversation with anyone because then you’re
able to put yourself metaphorically in somebody else’s shoes. And I think that’s the biggest thing. And I
think, as a leader, that’s one of the things that allowed me to get along with just about anyone and
everyone because I’m able to talk to you and be like “Okay. Have you considered this? Or is there
anything about you and your needs that I need to consider? And through conversation and
communication, we get to the bottom of that.” But there are sometimes there’s people that don’t want
to talk. And they don’t want to have to develop and change their views, even for a little bit, because that
means I have to give something up. And if you think you have to give something up just for somebody
else to be comfortable, to feel seen, to have that same equity that you do, then I’m like you don’t really
want change. You just want to be comfortable. You want to be there by yourself on an island of comfort.
Yeah. Exactly. And I think you can expect it from certain people, certain groups. Like if somebody is
blatantly, overtly racist, you can expect it from that person. But when it comes from a person, you’re like
“Oh, you can be a person of color. You can be a marginalized community. You can be—” You know, even
in my community. It’s like you expect yourself to have the same views and values. You may not. And
that’s okay. But you just push through it. And you learn and see okay, what can I do to bypass that
pushback? And try to—I think that was one thing special, as a Black male student leader. I used to have
to be calm, reserved. And I used to have to think strategically, to the point, because I know how I can be
perceived on a day-to-day basis. And I know in certain spaces, you’re not going to come talk to me. And
in certain places, I would be disrespected. But I’m just like “Wow. It’s crazy.” Because if I lose my cool, I
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could be taken off into a totally different direction. (talks as if mimicking students) “Oh, he doesn’t care
about us. What a mean person!” So, I understood how—even going back, I understood my relationship
to people and my relationship to the university. And it’s a crazy thing to acknowledge, but that was one
of the things that, being a student there, being student government president, working in leadership,
catering to students, and even being a professional staff, I always had to be mindful of who I was in my
relationship to people because I knew, especially based on who I am, I could easily be misconstrued.
Ho: Thank you. Okay. Are there any questions that I should have asked but didn’t?
Adamsel: Hhmmm. (laughs) Nah. I mean I don’t’ know. I have no idea. (Jenn laughs) Well, actually, you
didn’t talk about the social justice activism.
Ho: Yes. I did not ask that question.
Adamsel: Yeah.
Ho: Would you like to go into that? How has Black social justice and activism, such as the Civil Rights
Movement, Feminism, the Natural Hair Movement, and Black Lives Matter affected you? Thank you for
calling it out.
Adamsel: I think those movements affected me in different ways all over. When I think about the Civil
Rights Movement and different things like that, I correlate the Civil Rights Movement going back to—
think about Martin Luther King but even thinking about Martin Luther King and communities like Black
communities in that day, pushing for equality, equity, and civil rights. I think back to education. I think of
Carter G. Woods and miseducation of the Negro. I think about people pushing for Black people to be
educated. And so, when I look at the Black populations on campus, I think back to, man, equity. What
are we doing to change that generation from the generation before us? What are we doing to push
more Black professionals into the workforce? Hopefully with as little overhead as possible, and getting
them into the career fields, one, that they love but also making sure that they have the network not only
to do what they love and then succeed and excel at it. When it came to the Natural Hair Movement, I’m
in that all day, with the little bit that I have. But I think that was something where when I’d seen the
Natural Hair Movement, I saw that take place on campus to where men and women in our spaces, you
know, “Let’s create these events that our natural hair shows” and getting more Black businesses into
our university and making sure when Black students are at campus at Cal State San Marcos, they know
the local barbers, the local hair stylists that can do what they need to do, whether it’s protective styles,
wear your natural hair. I like that because it builds a sense of community within our group but then it
also builds a sense of collaboration in our area, increasing that network. When I think about feminism, I
think back to Professor Michelle Holland. I think about when I took a feminist rhetorical theory course
from her. She’s one of the greatest professors ever. But she’s tough. She going to give you the grade
that you deserve. (laughs) And a great professor. But then, I think learning about feminism and learning
about the multi-layered areas in feminism and how ideas about feminism—I just didn’t. I looked at my
relationship to who I was based on what feminism was talking about and really, I’m like, man. I don’t see
myself in this space because a lot of what you’re preaching, some of the feminist ideals from the
beginning, it has racism in it. Black women, it’s like we could promote March for Women’s Rights but I’m
like, yeah. If you tell me white women got to vote—what was it? Like 54 years before Black women got
the vote—there’s inequity there. And if you don’t—I forget—Elizabeth Cady Stanton and everybody on
those beginnings, if you’re preaching and you’re sponsoring the beginnings of feminism and there’s
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racism, I can’t be a part of it. But when I got to learn more about different women in the Black rhetorical
feminism and seeing pockets of where Black women have to face racism and sexism in society, I feel like
it was very intercommunity focused. And I felt like I chose to look at it as something like—I don’t want to
disregard any woman if they’re feeling oppressed or if they have real life things that they’re dealing
with, whether it’s sexual assault, abuse, even inequities in pay. These are all bad things. But I think I love
to bring it back to focus on where’s my relationship in it and how can I look at it to where I’m the most
involved. And I think that brought it back to it looks at family. It looks at the women in your immediate
circle. It can look at your relationship with women all over. But, instead of trying to put a mind frame on
“Do you love it all?” No. (chuckles) When it comes to feminism, I don’t like all the history. And there are
so many different types. I did enjoy researching all about the different variations of feminism. Man,
when you dive into it, some are radicals. Some are not. Some are not inclusive. Some are really inclusive.
So, I really like that, breaking those things down. And I think it really starts with self. It really starts with
how you’re raised, and really looking at how can you impact the community and the area and the
women that you’re ultimately in communication with every day? And if you start to see signs of “Hey,
somebody’s disrespectful. Somebody did something, the wrong thing.” Or “How do I understand Title IX
regulations?” If somebody comes to me and “This is what happened to me!” or “Somebody took
advantage of me,” did I do my due diligence to understand, on this campus, do I know how to offer
assistance? Do I know how to report, if I’m a mandated reporter? What can I do to make sure,
ultimately, that any woman that’s around me, that I come in contact with even if I don’t know her for
about an hour or something, if they come to me with needs or issues, even outside the lens of I could
take from feminism, but just being a great person, or being a good person, and making sure you’re
assisting, or you can. And I think—And stepping outside the box and saying “I’m a guy. I don’t do it. I’m a
Black guy. That never happened with me with you.” Or “I don’t think that could happen because I didn’t
see it like that.” Being able to take a step back and like “Man. I never thought of it like that.” Or “I didn’t
know that that could be misconstrued.” Or “I didn’t know that was a thing.” Can I educate myself? Can I
learn how to help? Can I be a better me for the women in my life or my friend, my colleagues? I think I
try every day. I’m not going to come on here and say, “Louis was a feminist.” But I’m going to come on
here and say through research, through history, through learning from great professors like Professor
Holland, learning from classmates and women in my life, ultimately, that’s one of the things that I feel
like that affected me to make sure like “Man. I need to know about how it’s affecting people, near and
dear to me.” And even if they’re not near and dear to me, how can my relationship still be on a level
playing field? And the last topic was Black Lives Matter.
Ho: Mm-hmm.
Adamsel: How has that affected me? And, for me, man. I think Black Lives Matter has affected me in a
multitude of ways. And it has been funny, because I don’t really talk about Black Lives Matter. But one of
the things I think about Black Lives Matter is like uh, it’s a basic statement. And it’s basic to me because
I’m Black. I know I matter. You couldn’t tell me anything otherwise. It’s just common sense to me. And I
see people shouting it. And I’m like “Oh, that’s great! Black lives do matter, yeah. I fuck with that.” I
mean—my language— (seems embarrassed) I believe in that. (both laugh) But I think one of the things
that it really affects me differently when I look at an organization like Black Lives Matter and I don’t
know if I like all the tactics that I see from it.
Ho: Mm-hmm.
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Adamsel: And I say that because I’m not a fan of Black male death. And, you know, I’m a Black male in
America. But when I see death, I almost wonder—You know, I think back to throughout history we have
big signs of death. You have Emmett Till. You think about police brutality with Rodney King. I’m from
Watts, so I think about that. I think back to even growing up in places where you’re like, man, a Black
man could have been murdered or shot. Or you see it on the news, police brutality, this, that, and the
third. And it’s, for me, I’m not taking away any good that they might be able to do. But, for me, one of
the things that sucks is just seeing Black male death. And you can see it in recent actions like George
Floyd. And there’s so many names, even to this day. It has probably been a lot of Black male and I don’t
even want to negate Black female death, Black trans men and women death. But I’m just like man. So,
imagine you’re living in a society where every time a Black male, female, any identity is killed, they get a
segment on TV. You probably get to see the death, their struggle. There’s a lot of reposting, re-Tweets.
Before, it used to be—Like I think something that happened, because I think there was something—I
think it was in Missouri or, I forget. But it was a death of a Black man, but I think it was on the—
something bad had happened with something else. But I think I even was at school at Cal State San
Marcos, and I could see the university didn’t want to talk about that. But they chose to talk about
another topic. So, sometimes you see businesses. But now, it’s the hot thing to do. Businesses will talk
about the black death or say “We stand with you.” But I wonder, when it comes down to it, how much
do you really stand with that group if it’s not representative of whether it’s in your hiring, whether it’s in
your policies, whether anything. But I think it has become easier for people to say it without somebody
else looking at them. And when I look at organizations like Black Lives Matter, I’m not too invested in
them because I live—this is my daily life. This is what we live through. We live through relationships. We
live through how people perceive us. We make our own understanding of the world. But I’m, personally,
not a fan of Black death and the highlighting of Black death in any facet. And I don’t really know how,
when it comes to all of that, you’ve got to think. A lot of this stuff happened when I was in school. But
after I graduated, I also worked at Cal State San Marcos for the Emergency Management Department.
And my department was actually conveniently located in the Police Department.
Ho: Hhmmm.
Adamsel: And that also was like another thing because it’s like you get to see the differences. I get to see
officers, and I like officers in that capacity. But then, I get to also see officers and I’m like I don’t really
know, don’t really have a relationship with you. I’m not saying I had a relationship with every single
officer at Cal State, but I can also say that I’ve never had a relationship with every single officer in the
world. But based on what’s going on in the United States, I could see like “Wow. It’s tragic out here.” So,
for me, I think, yeah, just going back to it. Black Lives Matter is not something that, personally, I’m like
running to the streets to protest for. I don’t. Because until some of the—I don’t know. I think it has to be
a different way to protest for what you need without promoting that death factor.
Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that because of Black Lives Matter, we’re witnessing so much
death of Black men without seeing an increase in equity in other areas?
Adamsel: Yeah. And I don’t even want to put that on Black Lives Matter.
Ho: Okay.
Adamsel: But this is an organization that they will do their work. But, ultimately, out of their work you
see a lot of organizations making statements, pushing out this narrative because they think without
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making a statement back to Black people, it might be a hindrance to their business, their operations,
their reputation. When you focus on people, business, operations, reputation, oh! Snap! There’s a
financial impact. People might not want to shop here. Somebody might even think there might be a
protest and then somebody might use a protest as an opportunity to loot this store. And it might not be
a Black person. There might be anybody. But I think it’s in their best interest, it’s in the organization’s
best interest, to focus on the Black population. And I don’t think it started with Black Lives Matter,
showcasing that. But I think it has increased. I think people look at that organization as a beacon. And
there is a ton of Black grassroots organizations that are out there trying to make change, trying to do
different things. I won’t say I’m educated about all of the work that is taking place within Black Lives
Matter and what is taking place in all those grassroots organizations. But me personally, talking about
Black Lives Matter and how it has affected me, I’m like man. Any Black person, I think, when you look at
Black death over and over, not even only Black people, you look at outside the community, you’re like,
okay. How do people feel if they see somebody Black on the news die? Ultimately, their head is like “Oh,
another one.” And go about their day.
Ho: Hhmmm.
Adamsel: It has become so repetitive to the point where it’s just like you sort of become numb to it. And
I never want to be numb to Black death. But, ultimately, with the push of social media, these graphic
scenes, these things that—They need justice. It needs to be brought to light. But I’m like, man. It affects
people. It affects me. And I just don’t want it to affect me to the point where I’m just numb, completely.
(chuckles)
Ho: Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, you’re seeing it too much and you’re afraid that you will start to become
numb because it’s just everywhere now.
Adamsel: And like you said, after a while—I don’t know how other Black people feel. I feel how I’m going
to feel. But, after a while, you start looking and you start wondering, when will things change? Have they
changed? If they’ll ever change? And right now, you can’t answer that. But have they changed from
when your parents were going through it, or your family went through it to now? I can’t say they have. I
can say, “Oh, it’s visualized a lot more.” So, at what point do you get away from visualization and you get
towards action, you get towards new policies, you get towards actual protections for people who are
people but they’re not being treated like such? And then, when they’re not being treated like people,
why is that? I know it’s going to be a sound bite. I know it’s going to be popular. This is probably going to
make news media, companies money. Because everybody’s infuriated. Everybody’s enraged. They’re the
talk of the town. And I just wish Black death wasn’t the talk of the town. I wish it never had to get to
that.
Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. What else have we not covered that you would like to cover?
Adamsel: Um.
Ho: Anything?
Adamsel: Let’s see. (appears to be reading something off-screen) External…Institutional…
Ho: And did you think of any more people that you’d like to give a shout out about?
Transcribed by Melissa Martin
22
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�LOUIS ADAMSEL
Transcript, interview
2021-05-28
Adamsel: I did not. Like I said, they’re probably going to have to come text me and talk to me, if I forgot.
(both laugh) But no. I don’t know if I have anything more that’s major. I think I probably spoke more indepth than I thought I ended up needing to. But it was good. For me, it was a good conversation. I didn’t
know it was going to go down that path or even we were going to get in-depth in all those questions.
But I do appreciate it. I mean I do like the level of support that the library is trying to do to bring these
thoughts together, I guess, before we get too old, and we start forgetting.
Ho: Yeah.
Adamsel: Especially like the part we played in all of it.
Ho: Mm-hmm. That is really important, for sure.
Adamsel: Yeah. And when you all showcase this, especially with memory, is this something if a student,
in 2059, they’ll be scrolling, they’ll be able to go “Oh, University Archives, Black Student Center origin,”
or something like that?
Ho: Yeah. Basically. I don’t know that it would just be a bunch of videos available to a random scroller.
But, for future researchers who are interested in the university’s history or the Black student experience
on our school or in general in America or California or, you know, student life identity-focused centers,
things like that. It’ll definitely be available to researchers.
Adamsel: I hope that they have a great experience learning more about that. I feel like sometimes, when
you learn more about the Black students experience in California or probably in most schools that
probably are not, even historically, Black universities, but when I think of a Black student’s relationship
with higher education and with inequity in the world, and then you play that into the normal wealth gap
with African Americans, Black people in America, with anybody else, it’s a crazy contrast between how
many of us are going to universities is a crazy contrast with inequities. And you would think more people
would be like “Oh, let’s do what we can to make that look like a better option.” And it doesn’t start at
college. It starts with the K-12 system as well. So, it’s just like our relationship with the education system
between what we know is designed to make people, ultimately, better off, there’s something that’s
going on that makes us look like that institution is not for me. I don’t want to be there. And I’m just like,
man. It sucks. But I can’t act like college is for everyone. I can’t act like it appeals to everyone. It appeals
to all of us differently.
Ho: Mm-hmm.
Adamsel: I just wish there was more to offer everybody who chose to go that route because there is so
few of us as is.
Ho: Yeah. It would be great if every person in America saw college as an option. Even if they chose not
to go—
Adamsel: Mm-hmm.
Ho: —if they at least knew that it was an option that was viable for them if they wanted to go.
Adamsel: Yeah.
Ho: That would be ideal for sure.
Transcribed by Melissa Martin
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�LOUIS ADAMSEL
Transcript, interview
2021-05-28
Adamsel: Exactly. And I think that’s very true.
Ho: So, if there is nothing else, I will stop the recording. Is there anything you want to end with before I
stop the recording?
Adamsel: Uh, no. I mean, I think the biggest thing is when it comes to ending, I’m very happy with the
growth that the Center, Cal State San Marcos, has afforded me in my growth. I went to the university at
19. So, they’re some of the best years of growing in who I was as a leader. I think I knew who I was as a
leader when I came. But through a mentorship, through role models, through networking, I think I
became an even better person than I ever hoped I’d be by the time I left. And really staying connected,
being able to be aligned with Black leaders, leaders of all different identities—because I used to only
think I could only learn from Black people—but college taught me I could almost learn from anyone who
is willing to teach, who’s willing to give out that helping hand. And it was a lovely place for me to grow.
And I’m happy with the growth that I’ve achieved there. And I’m ultimately happy with the students that
I’ve been able to see grow there as well and graduate. And even people that—It might not have been
somebody who had their hand out for me, who looked like me when I first got to the university. But I
was able to step up and get help from a lot of different people. And so, when somebody else came
behind me, I just wanted to make sure okay, we continue to build that bridge and we make sure that
these new students have the opportunity that wasn’t afforded to me. And even looking back to friends,
Tiffany, Jamailah, even friends I met along the way, everyone was sort of like that key network to help
keep Black students afloat and, ultimately, stay engaged through university and break all the barriers
that we even thought were there. So, thanks to San Marcos. Thanks to the University Library. I know you
all still got the mural probably in there.
Ho: Yeah. Hopefully it stays there! Yeah, it’s beautiful.
Adamsel: Yeah. I know. It’s amazing. But thank you for even interviewing.
Ho: All right. Thanks for being part of it, Louis.
Adamsel: No problem.
Transcribed by Melissa Martin
24
2024-01
�
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Adamsel, Louis. Interview transcript, May 18, 2021.
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Louis Adamsel speaks on his time as an undergraduate student at California State University San Marcos, aspects of his life as a student leader, his experience as a Black student and, later, as a staff member. Adamsel discusses his advocacy for the creation of the Black Student Center and the purpose the BSC serves to students, including the necessity of having a variety of resources in order to retain underserved students. He also speaks on mentorships and partnerships, both within the Black community and across identities and spaces.
This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund.
Creator
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Louis Adamsel
Contributor
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Jennifer Ho
Melissa Martin
Date
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2021-05-18
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Black experience in America
California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated
California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center
California State University San Marcos -- Staff
California State University San Marcos -- Students
Civil rights
Student Success
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Moreno Valley (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
Watts (Los Angeles, Calif.)
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English
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Louis Adamsel
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text
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AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-18_transcript
Activists and activism
Black experience
Black Student Center Oral History Project
CSUSM history
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Oral Histories
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Oral History
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Christine Frazier
Interviewee
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Lucy HG Solomon
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6.0 HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview April 17, 2025 SC027-079 57:03:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos -- Faculty ; California State University San Marcos. School of Arts ; California State University San Marcos. Biology ; California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective ; Physarum polycephalum ; Artificial intelligence ; Art and artificial intelligence ; Interdisciplinary approach in education ; Border Art Collective ; Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland) ; Mars Rover Project ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Environmentalism in art ; California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory Lucy HG Solomon Christine Frazier sound HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4e72dfbca93bb6ce80c3ebed9f23b333.mp4 Other video English 1 Introduction Christine Frazier, a graduate student at CSUSM interviews Lucy HG Solomon about her work as an artist and a professor. CSUSM ; Lucy HG Solomon ; art 0 ["[\"\"]"] 33 League of Imaginary Scientists, NASA, and the Mars Rover Project on Oileán Ruaidh Lucy HG Solomon discusses her work with the League of Imaginary Scientists, NASA and the Mars Rover Project on the Irish Island, Oileán Ruaidh. She discusses how Oileán Ruaidh resembled Mars with its red soil, and the significance of such work. She created a reverse NASA study where she examined the future of the island and asked the same questions that the rovers were asking on Mars. They were asking questions such as: Is Earth going to look like Mars in the future? League of Imaginary Scientists ; NASA ; Mars Rover ; Mars ; Oileán Ruaidh ; Lucy HG Solomon 0 [""] 389 Planet Mentorship Project and Juliana Goodlaw-Morris, Sustainability Manager at CSUSM Lucy HG Solomon discusses the Planet Mentorship Project which she worked on with Juliana Goodlaw-Morris, the Sustainability Manager at CSUSM. She discusses thinking about how students relate to the planet. It is an interdisciplinary project which pairs mentorship, art making, and community building together. Ariel Stevenson ; Peace Corps ; Juliana Goodlaw-Morris ; Planet Mentorship Project ; data visualization 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 836 Student involvement in Data Stacks at the Kellogg Library Professor HG Solomon discusses motivating students, and how it's really rewarding to have students have their own research and creative work acknowledged through a grant. Students have contributed to the art exhibition Data Stacks, which is an exhibition space in Kellogg Library Kellogg Library ; Data Stacks ; CSUSM library ; grants ; art exhibitions 0 [""] 897 Cesar Baio at the University of Campinas in Brazil Professor HG Solomon discusses her work with Cesar Baio at the University of Campinas in Brazil. She earned a Fulbright Scholarship to go to Campinas in Brazil in 2018. They also began the art collective titled Cesar and Lois. Her interdisciplinary work focuses on art and science while integrating technology. Cesar Baio ; University of Campinas ; Brazil ; Fulbright ; Artificial Intelligence ; Cesar and Lois ; art collective 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 981 Lumen Prize for Artificial Intelligence Professor HG Solomon discusses how she won the Lumen Prize in her art exhibition that to made a statement about what technology serves. 
 ; She discusses questioning the trajectory of technology, and reflecting on AI usage. 
 ; AI ; artificial intellegence ; Lumen Prize ; technology use 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1167 Nature as a blueprint for technology HG Solomon discuses her work questioning what would happen if nature were the blueprint for technology. She worked with Dr. Betsy Read in the Biology Department at CSUSM. Biology ; Betsy Read ; CSUSM ; AI ; artificial intellegence ; nature 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1195 Using the yellow slime mold, Physarum polycephalum as a tool to explore AI development and logic. Professor HG Solomon discusses what kinds of logic that governs AI development, while exploring the logic of Physarum polycephalum, a yellow slime mold. She integrates the logic of Physarum polycephalum into city development models. Palo Alto ; Physarum polycephalum ; AI ; Artificial intelligence ; yellow slime mold ; CSUSM 0 [""] 1356 Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory Professor HG Solomon describes the Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory that has four students work on art projects that bridge art and science. The Data Lab partnered with Dr. Betsy Read in the Biology Department at CSUSM. Data Lab ; Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory ; Dr. Betsy Read ; Biology Department at CSUSM 0 [""] 1550 Professor Sandra Doller- CSUSM Professor Professor Sandra Doller collaborated with Professor HG Solomon on the text that was tweeted from the Physarum polycephalum project. Professor Sandra Doller ; Physarum polycephalum 0 [""] 1628 Plant biologist Dr. Joanne Chory- Salk institute Plant biologist Dr. Joanne Chory investigated a type of plant hormone related to plant growth at the Salk Institute. She hybridized Arabidopsis in order to make agricultural crops like tobacco. Professor HG Solomon contemplates the importance of one day in the life of a plant, and this leads her into discusses the nature of time. Salk Institute ; Dr. Joanne Chory ; Plant biologist ; plant hormone ; time 0 [""] 1908 The passage of time Professor HG Solomon contemplates the passage of time after reading the book The Passion According to G.H. by Clarice Lispector. She shows the viewer models of Earth's timeline from the Big Bang and contemplates how we view time as a human. time ; Clarice Lispector ; The Passion According to G.H. ; Big Bang 0 [""] 2602 Oulanka Research Station Professor HG Solomon discusses how she was commissioned by the Oulanka Research Station in Finland. She explored how to use these data sets that are collecting data about temperature, individual species and soil responses to climate change and how can this data be incorporate into an AI program. Oulanka Research Station ; Finland ; AI 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2936 Mentorship at CSUSM Professor HG Solomon discusses mentorship at CSUSM. David Avalos was her mentor in the arts. He helped her understand the impact of the art she was creating. She emphasizes the importance of collaboration in the arts as a means to grow and learn. She discusses the Cognate Collective, a collective involving Misael Diaz's and Amy Sanchez at CSUSM. She discusses the importance of the Border Art Collective. Cognate Collective ; David Avalos ; mentorship ; Border Art Collective ; collaboration 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 3347 Closing The interview concludes. 0 [""] oral history Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Art Department at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses professional collaboration and her interdisciplinary art projects, along with how she uses interactive media to help people understand complex scientific subjects. She reveals the importance of understanding the implications of scientific innovations for students. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.135 --> 00:00:24.015 Hello, this is Christine Frazier and today I'm interviewing Professor Lucy HG Solomon, for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History Program. Today is April 17th, 2025. This interview is taking place at the CSUSM campus. Professor HG Solomon, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:24.015 --> 00:00:25.855 Thank you for having me. 00:00:25.855 --> 00:00:33.585 Could you tell us a little bit about how you came to teach at California State San Marcos and about your career? 00:00:33.585 --> 00:06:22.754 Yes, for sure. I would love to share a little bit about my creative journey. I was part of an art collective called the League of Imaginary Scientists, and that was from 2006 until--really for about 15 years. So around the pandemic, we shifted, but this was an art collective created with collaborators in Los Angeles and had a very playful approach to incorporating scientific themes into interactive artworks. And we had some acclaim. We had the great opportunity of working with NASA to strangely do a study on Ireland--in Ireland, on an island that was in a narrative way, a sister or a twin to Mars. And the island is called Oileán Ruaidh. It means the Red Island in Gaelic. And so this was during the first push to get really the public excited about the Mars Rovers. And we did a reverse future, or a reverse NASA study where we examined the future of this island and asked the same questions that the rovers were asking on Mars. The rovers were asking questions like: was Mars anything like Earth four million years ago? And we were asking, is the earth going to look like Mars in the future? And so we took the same kinds of samples that the rovers were taking and asked the same kinds of questions. I say that as a preamble because it is that kind of work, this community based, environmentally-oriented, interdisciplinary work that drove me to come to Cal State San Marcos. The founding of CSUSM--what is notable because the size and the nature of the faculty, the size of the university, the nature of the faculty, led the campus to be stridently interdisciplinary. That kind of thinking across disciplines allowed me to work here. And I say, allowed me to work here because I had applied for other positions, and really I had to transform myself to become the graphic design teacher or the media arts teacher or an art professor. And I did work at other institutions. And here I could be unapologetically an interdisciplinary artist. So that's what brought me to Cal State San Marcos. And I'm surrounded by colleagues who work in this hybrid way, and sometimes their work is quite fascinating and really drew me to wanna be here. An example is my colleague, Professor Judit Hersko, who like me, really bridges the world of art and science. When I came here, she had--maybe not recently--but had gone to Antarctica as part of an NSF grant. There was another colleague who is now retired, Deborah Small, who is notable because of her work that happened very organically with tribal communities, where she found that she had a very important--really a critical and perhaps threatened plant on her property in Rainbow where she lives. And tribal members ended up coming to her property as a meet-gathering place to develop crafts based around this plant. They ended up collaborating on a book where she photographed native species. And that became a resource, really for that group. And I have that ethnobotany photo group, photo book somewhere in my library here. But I came to Cal State San Marcos totally excited about the faculty here. Really historically important faculty as well, like David Avalos, who has a background working on border art issues with the Border Art Collective and is a prominent Chicano artist who has recently retired, but is quite really a cool guy. In fact, I have some things of his, I have his hot chili pepper that came from somewhere, and there's a book over there that Trader, Survivor, Icon that has his work in it. Thank you for passing that. Yeah. So this is, this features David Avalos's work. This is an important piece that he made that has also exhibited in the Escondido Center for the Arts. So there was this rigor of artistic creation that was evident in the colleagues who were here and a total encouragement to think and work outside of traditional artistic boundaries. 00:06:22.754 --> 00:06:29.305 That sounds wonderful. Could you explain your work on the Planet Mentorship Project? 00:06:29.305 --> 00:13:31.981 Yes, definitely. So as a faculty member at Cal State San Marcos, we balance a research and creative activities trajectory where we get to make art and write about the things that we care about. And, we do--of course, we're professors, we teach, and we also think about how we contribute to the campus community and the community at large. So one of the ways that I have found a way to be involved in the global community and to engage students in thinking about how they relate to the planet is a project that was conceived across different areas of the university. The arts: that's me. And then Juliana Goodlaw-Morris is, she is a former Peace Corps volunteer who really has worked across her professional career thinking about the use of resources. And she heads our sustainability efforts on campus. So she has become a close collaborator when I think about the impact of students' education and also their art on the environment and how to connect those more closely. Then the third person who started this project, and I'll talk about the project in a second, but it's Ariel Stevenson, and she is somebody who is thinking about inclusive excellence. That's her role on campus. And she brought to Juliana and me discussions around inclusive sustainability, how to engage the wider, the broader student body in environmental issues, environmental issues that really touch students in their homes, in their, uh, communities. And yet maybe they haven't studied environmental issues or they haven't developed the tools to really grapple with how they might become involved in the environmental issues across the planet. So we started this program. We started a program called the Planet Mentorship Project, and I am a professor in the arts. My specialty is data visualization. And when I started teaching data visualization, it was not that commonly understood. Now it's so obvious. I think actually COVID really made people alert to graphing in dynamic ways because they wanted to understand complex data sets quickly, and the literacy around data visualization across the world suddenly exploded. I work with students to create data visualizations around their lived experiences with daunting environmental issues and the data sets that are related to those. So in the Planet Mentorship Project, we pair mentorship, art making, and community building. And it's--we have some fun together. I'll show you a couple projects too or I'll talk about a couple projects. This is one student, Aidelen Montoya, who she made a data visualization that looks at the future of sea rises across the globe, but specifically relevant to the Philippines. And as a Filipinx student, she also examined her own ties to the Philippines and started to use beading, which is a traditional Filipino practice, and decided that she would bead these future maps. So this map of 2050 notably has much of the Philippines underwater, and this was an entry point for her to connect more with the place where her mother immigrated from, as well as explore environmental issues. So that's really the goal. Another, another work by Aidelen, I just have a couple of hers here--she looked at redlining in San Diego and made this dynamic embroidered map that really makes an inverse of the redlined areas and invited students who visited the exhibition at the Data Stacks on campus to look at where they're from and to see was this one of the areas that was excluded to someone who looks like me, or in this case, not me, but a student of color and their family. So that project has existed for about--we're in our third year and we are continuing it looking each year for a new cohort of students whom we hope to engage in arts in a dynamic way, and at the same time celebrate their own developing interests in nurturing the planet and examining the very critical issues around environmental injustice and the nuances of how that might have impacted their own family life. Some students live adjacent to factories and only in their critical inquiry really understand the embedded structural challenges that have developed, that have caused hardship and health issues within their families. So it's great. I mean, that's not great. That's problematic, but it is really rewarding to have students get excited about environmental causes which have traditionally not been causes that communities of color have been able to take over. There are often--environmental studies has been an area of study that has been dominated by white students and white scholars. And so you see this intersectional approach also shifting. Who gets to be an environmentalist? Everyone is an environmentalist. We're all affected by pollution. 00:13:31.981 --> 00:13:45.865 For professors or educators that would like to have students do these types of projects, what are some tips or issues that you think they should know about? 00:13:45.865 --> 00:13:50.034 And by? So by types of projects, you mean co-curricular, extracurricular? 00:13:50.034 --> 00:13:56.000 Yeah. Kind of interdisciplinary, getting students to critically examine their own environment and creating, you know-- 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:57.394 This project, the Planet Mentorship Project is a real commitment, and one thing that we do is we pay students. We have a--it's a grant, it's a scholarship-based project where students--and any student can participate--all students on campus are welcome. We usually have the amount of student applicants whom we accept. So it's kind of worked out perfectly. I don't wanna say that the only way to get students involved is to pay them, but it's really rewarding to have students have their own research and creative work acknowledged through a grant. And it may be the first time that they feel that they're acknowledged as an artist and a scholar. At the end of the program, we have a panel, the students discuss their work. We have an art exhibition at the Data Stacks, which is an exhibition space in Kellogg Library. 00:14:57.394 --> 00:15:11.544 Okay. Very cool. And I know, moving on a little bit, that you've also worked with Joanne Chory at the Salk Institute. Could you explain your work there for us? 00:15:11.544 --> 00:22:32.704 Yes, yes. So around the time that my, that the Art Collective, the League of Imaginary Scientists started to stop doing the kind of crazy art installations we were making around science, like the one that I described of the Inverse Mars Study. I started working with a Brazilian media artist and scholar, Cesar Baio, who is based at Uni Camp, a university in Brazil. It's the state university of Campinas. And we, we started to collaborate sometimes in person. I had a Fulbright to go to Campinas in Brazil as well as a few other places, but I spent a significant amount of time in 2022 there. We began working together in 2018, and we worked also between these disciplines of art and science while integrating technology. So our first artwork actually garnered us a pretty cool prize, the Lumen Prize in Artificial Intelligence. And this is a prize for the arts, for digital art. But this particular sub award, this award was for excellence in critically examining artificial intelligence. And that is what we started to do. We started to make artworks that use scientific principles often through collaborating in labs and with research scientists to make a statement about what technology serves. What the purpose is, how it intersects with society and nature. And that sounds all pretty crazy and complex, and I'll try to say it in a couple different ways. So we also make art that is often living. So we'll make a living sculpture rather than seeing just a piece of wood, it might be a wooden structure that incorporates living plants. And from those plants we receive live signals. Those signals become part of the art project. Our--so Cesar Baio and myself, we have the collective's name is Cesar and Lois, and one of our goals is to question the trajectory of technology, including artificial intelligence. And one example of that is thinking critically about the basis of technology, the basis of AI as a neurocentric or human rewards-based system. So a lot of--most AI systems, all programs, all AIs require data sets. And most of those databases come from--these are training databases and they come from human language models. They also--and those aspire to replicate human logic. Other rewards based training models, reinforce behavior that is very also human. Humans, when we get food, we feel rewarded. When we do certain things, we are also motivated by this internal reward. Hopefully that's not our only motivation. AIs are currently being developed in these ways. So Cesar and I started looking in it from an artist's perspective. So we're not AI specialists, but we incorporate artificial intelligence programming into our sculptures. We started thinking, what if nature were the blueprint for technology? And we started looking first at very simple systems, microbiological systems. We used one organism that we really got turned onto by a biology professor here at CSUSM, Dr. Betsy Read. She gave us a sample of slime mold, Physarum polycephalum. That is a really cool, fast growing yellow organism. It started a whole fashion craze for me where I only wore yellow for a long time 'cause I fell in love with this organism. And I worked with teams of students here at Cal State San Marcos, and we made art installations where Physarum polycephalum would make decisions and we would base our own computer system on that organism. And the big question was, you know, what kind of logic does this organism have? The organism is kind of interesting. It's not unlike some other kinds of networking organisms like, like fungi, although it's not a fungi. It was misclassified as fungi for a long time by scientists and then unclassified. But Physarum polycephalum or slime mold, which you can see out in the world in gardens. It's a networking organism that shares its resources across all of the nodes of its network. And as artists, we went into labs, we had artistic residencies and labs in different countries and different places. And we were able to grow and study this organism and ask, well, what if our own technologies shared resources the way that Physarum polycephalum does this? Um, this kind of wooden structure behind me was a basis for growing Physarum polycephalum. And this is actually a dried, you can't see it anymore 'cause it's all dried up. But that is where we groove the organism across a map of Palo Alto to show would Palo Alto and East Palo Alto--kind of the wealthiest and the poorest neighborhoods in California and maybe even the whole country. We were curious would Physarum polycephalum organize those cities the same way that humans do? And what we found in our experiments is that Physarum polycephalum will redistribute wealth across its whole network. So we started using, in a way, the microorganism as a tool for data visualization and recalibrating our understanding of how could we logically change how we think about resource distribution, how societies are formulated. 00:22:32.704 --> 00:22:36.144 And what was the student response to discovering these things? 00:22:36.144 --> 00:23:50.000 We had students who participated, so Kodi Gerritsen was a student of mine at the time. She came to Stanford University with Cesar and me, and we presented this project together. There were three other students who worked on that project. And I started what's called the Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory. And each semester I have about four students who work on art projects that bridge art and science. This is kind of unusual in the arts, but I was inspired and encouraged by my scientist colleagues. And this goes back to CSUSM being a model for interdisciplinary exploration. When Betsy Reed gave me that sample of Physarum polycephalum, she also said, come into the biology lab and experiment and try to figure out how to grow this in an artistic context. This is so fun. And she also allowed--that's actually very expensive. That's a huge resource. I was able to use that lab bench. And the bio tech at the time really helped me, helped keep alive the organism. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.000 True. 00:23:51.000 --> 00:25:11.000 And it was so cool. So, and we did things. We asked questions that maybe the scientists hadn't been asking, like, how do I grow this on a map? How do I grow this on the surface of a book? We started to grow Physarum polycephalum over pages of a book to question in, in many cases, we use Descartes--books about that, questions about humanities, really what Descartes would term as man's control over nature. So we looked at these traditional tenets of Western civilization and what are considered the kind of great models of thinking and Western thought, and started to challenge those with layers of logic on top of those. So we had a computer system that we set up that took photographs of a book as the organism grew across it. And as the organism grew across the book, then the text started to change. So first it would say, only man is the king and queen of nature, only men. We used this, a quote from Cicero, only man can reverse the flow of rivers. And as--that's a paraphrase-- 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Yeah. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:26:24.000 --and as the organism grew across, it would say something very unintelligible. But what was really cool, actually, we had the computer system tweet out the--back when Twitter was a thing instead of, before it evolved--the organism would tweet updated text from the book, devolving this text. And at that time when, when we did this, this was in 2019, we worked with another professor in literature here on campus, Professor Sandra Doller and Professor Doller, she brought her literature students in her critical analysis team, and they workshopped the text that the organism has--had published within Twitter. And they really looked at it as a poem or a body of language. It was really fun. And we filmed that and we have a video of those students' analysis of the living microorganisms. So that's cool. That is a very long background-- 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:25.000 Yeah. 00:26:25.000 --> 00:28:26.000 --to say that Cesar and Lois, uh, Cesar Biao and I, we, we were working with art and science, and when you asked about our work with the Salk Institute, we had had this body of work already. And so we had been--I guess, tried--we had had some chops proven within this arena of questioning this barrier between art and science that has been erected gradually over years, but maybe is being dismantled quite often at CSUSM And we were invited to and offered a commission to create a work with a biologist, a plant biologist--a plant microbiologist, Dr. Joanne Chory at the Salk Institute. Dr. Joanne Chory is known for her great scientific breakthrough, which now I think was maybe two decades ago, which was the discovery of a kind of plant hormone. It's not really a hormone, but it's called alchine. Am I saying that right, now? I won't say what it is, a secret thing. Yeah. And she discovered this, something like a hormone that plants release, and specifically the Arabidopsis plant, which is kind of known as a common weed, but in biology labs, it's used quite often to study and--to study hybrids, to create hybrids very quickly. They're, they're great lab rats for plant microbiologists. She, she stu--her discovery of this plant hormone was so cool, because what happens, I think it's, is it oxen? Uh, I'll, I'll find out and get back to you. 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.000 Yeah. 00:28:27.000 --> 00:33:02.000 Her discovery of this thing, this chemical that gets released, occurs when we didn't know that much about how plant cycles are triggered. And what happens is that the Arabidopsis plant, it's very first exposure, it's first day of light, is so important. And if it gets sunlight, then it grows in a certain way. And if it's in the shade, it grows in a different way for the rest of its life. So if it's in sunlight, it doesn't need to compete with a lot of other plants. So it will not grow long roots, but if it is in the shade, it will grow longer roots. And what that means for other plants and for that particular plant, is that it retains more carbon. Because it's embedding more of its metabolic results in the earth and putting that carbon down. And so she was hybridizing Arabidopsis in order to make vast agricultural crops like tobacco have longer roots and help kind of shift this climate change. What stuck with Cesar and me in her study were the themes of, of course the globe and climate, but also time. How cool is it that one day in a plant's life is so important? In some ways that's true with humans. Of course, what happens to us as babies has an impact. But imagine if it was like whatever happened in that twenty four hours of your life, the very first day is a blueprint for forever. So we started to think about timescales and what is time for Arabidopsis? What is time for microbiological organisms for Physarum polycephalum? For a tree that lives for a thousand years? Like the sequoias? What are these different scales of time? And how can we think about time differently as humans? And if we did, what would it do for our decision making? Like if we could think across a thousand-year span? And then we started to think about, I was reading--this was during the pandemic when we had this assignment, so of course we were thinking about time. And even the project got interrupted for a year because everything was shut down, including the Salk Institute for a period of time, or at least to artists. So we were thinking about time, we were having time slowed down and sped up in the strange way that the pandemic infected our lives. And we were also thinking about the deep planetary time. There's an author, a Brazilian author, Clarice Lispector, who had, during the pandemic especially, become quite popular in the US 'cause she was newly translated, even though she's a classically known, and really thought of as a modernist artist and writer--not artist, but literature contributor in Brazil, Clarice Lispector, amazing challenging author, but really interesting. And I started reading her during the pandemic, her work. And she has one book called The Passion According to G.H. That book is really experimental. And in it, she has some framing of a woman's experience as really dipping into her own framing of prehistoric time. And how she, at some point, the sculptor who is a main character in this book, has an existential moment where she crushes a cockroach and she doesn't--her own feelings of self evolve and she cannot really distinguish herself from the cockroach. And so she's talking about, you know, what is our, my own prehistoric memory? Do I have any memory with this? Do I, what do I share with this cockroach? And so we were also thinking about that. Like, what is time according to the planet? 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:03.000 Yeah. 00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:29.000 Prehistoric time? Are the bacteria that we evolved from, do we have, what kind of memories do we have associated with that? Do we have that? How long can our thinking be? And we were thinking about technology because technology is fast, and if we know anything about what, how we use AI in technology, it's usually to cut a corner to get something immediately. 00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:30.356 Yeah. 00:33:30.356 --> 00:34:11.045 And one of the worst culprits of this is Amazon. So, I like to use Amazon as an example, because of its famous same day delivery. When it, when the system, the AI system is shooting the data through its code to decide who gets to have same day delivery, what is considered are profits and also convenience. What is not considered is the long questions, the long logic. The long sense of time, like what is the impact on the planet? 00:34:11.045 --> 00:34:12.000 Yeah. 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:35.000 Or on people and populations and culture and communities, when we start to economize our daily interactions and that gets spurred on by these technological tools. And we think of them as tools, but we don't always question the values that they're suddenly implanting. So that's what we started thinking about with Joanne Chory. 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:36.000 Yes. 00:34:36.000 --> 00:37:15.000 With Dr. Chory. Not necessarily with her--with her, we really focused on Arabidopsis and the plant, and we started growing it ourselves. And during the pandemic, I worked with the Data Lab, and we grew and recorded the, the growth of Arabidopsis. We also started collecting plants all over Escondido, where I lived mostly around the specific property where I was living, which was very natural. And, along with the help of my daughter, who was six at the time, we collected many specimens and dried them and used those as part of the artwork. So I have, I have behind me one of the models that we made for thinking about time. So this circle that you see is the history of Earth starting with the Big Bang. And that became one of the models for allochronic cycles, which was a series of clocks that we made. I'll say clocks, but they're not quite clocks, but they were--there are, it's a series of discs that we designed and one was the cosmos. We thought the longest clock was the cosmos' time and for of the cosmos we embedded all of those specimens into holes, into little discs around the clock, around the disc. And then we had an earth cycle, and we had an Arabidopsis cycle, of course. And we had also a Covid cycle that went very quickly because the virus replicates. And for each of these cycles, we really studied all of these different ways of thinking about time, including viral time, and how fast growing and evolving viruses are. Which viruses, apart from infecting individuals and species are really cool, how they can replicate. So thinking about that kind of time, against the backdrop of cosmic time, those are huge leaps. So we really had fun during that whole year thinking about time. And then we made this model of clocks that I'll share an image of that, that is actually behind you we have some of the discs. I could pull one over. 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.000 Sure. 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Okay. I'll try not to knock anything over. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.000 Yeah. 00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:39.000 Okay. You should have had this ready to go. I'll get the cosmos one. Okay. Let's see this up. Okay. I'll just show this one. 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.125 Yeah. 00:37:42.125 --> 00:38:42.000 There's several discs, but I'll just show this cosmos one, because with the cosmos one, you can really see when it rotates that it has these powdered specimens inside of them. And they start--it's kind of cool, I think, how it like moves. And, so each one of these lights up and is powered, but it's also controlled by an AI. So it's controlled by a program that we wrote that takes into account, it's monitoring all of these different discs. So imagine the cosmos: it's spinning, but you barely notice it. Covid is spinning and it's, it's moving quite rapidly. This all exhibited at the La Jolla Historical Society. And then the following year, actually during the same exhibition, was it the same exhibition? It was, we made another version of it because it toured China and it— 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000 Oh, wow. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:40:32.000 --it was cool because at the time we had two Chinese students who were in instrumental to the development of the project on the Data Lab, Ji Young, and that's her first name, and also, Lee who's Ziwei Lee, and he goes by Lee and Ji Young is now, she's a PhD student at the University of Dallas, at the University of Texas in Dallas. And she also got her master's at USC during the pandemic. So this project was really formative for students and the students, especially those two students because of their background in, I think, you know, design coming from China, but also design that integrates planets in some ways. Ji Young had done some work across designing with different kinds of calendars for one of my, one of the class projects. Anyway, they really informed the project. Kodi Gerrittsen also worked on the project, and she now runs the Makerspace on campus. So she, she was, Kodi was instrumental in developing the Data Stacks as well. And so no, all three of the them were, because the Data Stacks opened the year after the pandemic, we, it was ready to open in March of the pandemic year, and then we sus--it was up, but the official opening happened a year later, almost, I think. 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:57.000 Yeah. And, as you work on these projects, I think it's evident that you're comfortable and you have a lot of experience working with AI. As the university kind of transitions to using more AI, are there any insights or things that we need to think about as we kind of go into this new age? 00:40:57.000 --> 00:42:07.000 Definitely, yes. Thanks for asking that question. So that project, allochronic cycles, allochronic is a word that means when geological epochs are out of sync or when something's out of sync with its geological epoch. And we started to think that, wow, allochronic, that's what we humans are, we're out of sync with our geology and the Earth. And so is AI. AI is making advanced decisions that is having an impact on the planet. So one of the things that the AIL and allochronic cycles did is there were all of these spinning discs, and the AI represented as a screen. So we always have a visual representation of this program that is graphically moving across the screen. So you have--and in this case, the AI is a replica of the cycles. So you can see these discs spinning, but at the same time, what it's doing is it's looking at the current carbon emissions on the planet, which you can get in real time. So if the AI is collecting that for the day and each day projects out-- 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:07.887 Wow. 00:42:07.887 --> 00:42:14.973 --when the Earth will no longer be habitable if the current carbon emissions are maintained. 00:42:14.973 --> 00:42:15.858 Yeah. 00:42:15.858 --> 00:42:28.678 And so then each day of the clock is the future of--is the day of the clock is like the next hundred to three hundred years. 00:42:28.678 --> 00:42:29.560 Yeah. 00:42:29.560 --> 00:44:02.000 Every day is the Earth's future. And at a certain point in the day, everything stops. And that's when the AI shuts down the clock and says, you know, at this point, the allochronic has happened. Like nothing is in sync. The carbon emissions have made life on Earth no longer possible. As we know it, life on earth as we know it. So that was kind of a challenging--a challenge to AI as well. Even though AI is given this task, it's a predictive task, the question is, really can we make a technology that does take into account the needs of the planet? Our next big project, well, we've had a quite a few projects since then, but we had a commission in the northern forest of Finland. And this was just this past year, we went to the Boreal Forest at the border between Finland and Russia and the North. And we were embedded at a research station, the Oulanka Research Station. And working with scientists who are so dedicated. And I always think of scientists as dedicated. Anyone who is doing research, longitudinal research is doing the same thing for thirty years. That takes so much focus. And most of these scientists, they're coming back--they were for many, many decades coming back to the cold, to the permafrost. 00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.000 Yeah. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:54.000 Looking, looking--the Boreal Forest actually wasn't permafrost, but in the winter months, looking at their sensors and getting their readings. Now this research station is year long, and they have longitudinal studies and they upkeep these data sets. So one of our goals was to think about how can we use these data sets that are asking questions about temperature and individual species and soil responses to climate change? How can we incorporate that into an AI? And we started to get our own signals. We had started doing this when we worked with a mushroom colony. We, we started getting signals from fungi for another project where we attempted communication with fungi, and that exhibited in Brazil. 00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:55.044 Yeah. 00:44:55.044 --> 00:46:09.715 And this project was creating, using the forest itself, the whole--imagine if the boreal forest, the network of forest were the model for the AI. Instead of a human neural network being the model for computer machine, computer processing or machine thinking, what if it's the forest? And the question for that project was really, does a forest make good decisions? Does it make better decisions than humans? Can humans make decisions like a forest? So I, I think for me, my role, as an artist is what many of the artists do here in this department. We look at an issue, we examine it critically, and then we offer other avenues for society. And it's--the artwork is meant as a question mark. It's meant as fodder for thinking and hopefully will propel new directions. 00:46:09.715 --> 00:46:37.744 It's very compelling. It's kind of, looking at AI, I think in a very unique way, a new perspective. I think many in education and elsewhere, it's just like a simple tool that people use and I think a few people even know, like the impact of AI, you know, on the environment. So this is really, really cool. As an educator, how have you used AI in your art classes? 00:46:37.744 --> 00:47:58.000 That's a great question. I have had individual students who use AI to generate projects. And part of my own requirement is that they contextualize and discuss what that means, what is the, the use of the tool. I am looking at and trying to develop a new curricular focus on AI and data visualization, where along with Cesar Baio and his wife in Brazil--is an AI specialist--named Livia Rubeck. And I am hoping to develop a curricular module with them that examines data sets and methods for mitigating bias in AI by eliminating bias in data sets. So it's a, that is Livia's expertise is examining and identifying bias in AI. Examples of that could be simply that, a whole gender is discluded. 00:47:58.000 --> 00:47:59.000 Yeah. 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:29.994 So then the results and our understanding of the AI or the decisions aren't going to be as accurate and certainly won't be representative. So I'm curious, I'm not sure how that will play out in the classroom, but that is something I'm currently embarking on, and that I expect will be a year-long study with ideally implementation in the spring. 00:48:29.994 --> 00:48:31.304 Okay. 00:48:31.304 --> 00:48:34.000 So check back. 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:35.585 Definitely. 00:48:35.585 --> 00:48:39.684 In a hundred years. I'll give you the next--no. 00:48:39.684 --> 00:48:57.000 Yeah. And considering that you are, working in the Art Department, are there any faculty that you'd like to review as being, you know, formative in your journey or impacting your work? 00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:14.000 Definitely. I think there are--there is the, my particular colleague, David Avalos, who was a resistant mentor of mine. I dragged him into taking on that role-- 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:14.485 That is funny. 00:49:14.485 --> 00:49:57.000 --and then he became an obstinate mentor, a willing mentor. So he's somebody who really--like I mentioned at the very beginning of this interview, David Avalos is a Chicano artist, very important in the history of border art in Southern California, who has brought--married critical thinking, teaching, and art making within his practice. As a colleague, he really, you know, he knows how to ask the hard questions. And that's sometimes what we have to do. 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:02.433 Yeah. 00:50:02.433 --> 00:52:19.684 With one another, we have to ask, how is what you're making--is what you are making, doing what you wanted to do in the world? And how do you adjust or work harder even? And so I have enjoyed my conversations with him as a model for thinking about my art practice. He has worked in an art collective and did so very thoughtfully with the Border Art Collective. That experience has been really important to how he thinks about the arts. And it has validated many of us in the department in our own work that is collaborative. Oftentimes when you go to different areas of the arts, perhaps the single master artist is celebrated. And we are, many of us in this department say, I'm thinking about the Cognate Collective, which is Misael Diaz's Collective. Professor Misael Diaz with, lecturer Amy Sanchez, who's also on campus. They create work together and sometimes they teach together. And that kind of collaborative making and thinking is pretty formative. It can generate something bigger than the individual's vision. And so David has supported that. I would also say that colleagues in the--and I should say too, that, Misael as a new colleague during the pandemic--I think just before the pandemic he joined our department--has also carried on that tradition of working within a collective, in a really exciting way. 00:52:19.684 --> 00:52:37.164 So thinking just in practice, how do you like forge relationships with other departments? Like how do you network as a faculty. If other people you know, on campus wanted to create an interdisciplinary project? 00:52:37.164 --> 00:53:14.000 I think it sometimes it's about asking a question that's interesting across disciplines. So you Judit Hersko has done so. She started working with--she's an art professor here who worked with she physics professors. And the physics professors, I always think of them as the other artists because they're asking these big questions that maybe are unanswerable and maybe it's the quest that becomes very engaging. As opposed to always having the practical answer. 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:18.545 Yep. 00:53:18.545 --> 00:53:50.000 But I have found that the scientists across campus are very open to collaboration, and that's so cool. We have some new scientists who are in the microbiology and biological sciences, like Dr. Carlos Luna Lopez and Dr. Erika Díaz-Almeyda, among many others who are just kind of intrepid explorers. And so they're looking at the world-- 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.125 Yeah. 00:53:52.125 --> 00:54:16.000 --through their own interdisciplinary lens already. So to tap into similar questions, to ask questions together from different angles, then just those initial discussions of questioning builds a framework for questioning together, and ideally bringing in students and having something bigger happen because you have input and expertise from different areas. 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:24.994 Okay. Well, thank you for letting me interview you today. Is there anything else you'd like to share? 00:54:24.994 --> 00:56:15.000 Yeah. Yes, I would say that the--that trajectory of art and science, there are other avenues that happen and it's, there aren't only--there isn't only one method for collaborating. And I think another, so Judit Hersko has done that. Kristine Diekman, who also retired, she did that. I mentioned that Deborah Small was a collaborator across botany and indigenous practices and photography. So we--I think there's all of these different ways of thinking and working together. And that--I think if I had one, just to tie this whole long statement back to our very, your very first question about what brought me to CSUSM and that I had recalled, it was really the interdisciplinarity of the school. That is what persists. That ability to work across disciplines. I really hope, I think it's been the hope of all faculty who work here because it allows for a lot of freedom. When you are not, I wanna--maybe shackled is too strong a word--but siloed also another strong word, but when you don't have those restrictions, there are many more possibilities. So I really hope that our students feel that we have the--and that the community feels that. We have a lot of majors that are designed for cross-disciplinary explorations. So we have--the new Data Science major takes an art class-- 00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:16.000 Oh wow. 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:28.000 --the environmental studies, the environmental studies students, those majors can take several different art classes that focus on art and science. The liberal studies students who are going to be the future educators-- 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:29.000 Yeah. 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:41.000 --do get a grounding in the arts, which is so important for K-12 teaching. So I just, I'm excited to be in a place where exploration is key. 00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:53.775 Very cool. Well, it was wonderful talking to you today. I appreciate our time together and thank you for contributing to the oral history project. 00:56:53.775 --> 00:57:02.000 Thank you. I hope it's an all right contribution. Thanks for having me. 00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:03.000 Yeah. Definitely. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. 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HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview April 17, 2025.
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Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Department of Art, Media, and Design at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses her collaborations with the League of Imaginary Scientists and with Cesar Baio as Cesar & Lois, along with how she works across art and science to talk about intersections in climate, AI, and society. She reveals the importance of cross-disciplinary exploration for students.
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SC027-079
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Art and artificial intelligence
Art and science
Border Art Collective
California State University San Marcos -- Faculty
California State University San Marcos. Biology
California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective
California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory
California State University San Marcos. School of Arts
Environmentalism in art
Interdisciplinary approach in education
Mars Rover Project
Physarum polycephalum
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2025-04-17
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video
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Lucy HG Solomon
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Christine Frazier
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Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland)
San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Lucy HG Solomon
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Art and artists
CSUSM history
History Department internship
Women's experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/77642e5342fb2141d291dcb4f2a39c8f.pdf
c2109654a869454e378d11e588fb884f
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HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview transcript, April 17, 2025.
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Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Department of Art, Media, and Design at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses her collaborations with the League of Imaginary Scientists and with Cesar Baio as Cesar & Lois, along with how she works across art and science to talk about intersections in climate, AI, and society. She reveals the importance of cross-disciplinary exploration for students.
This oral history was created in partnership with the CSUSM History Department and made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe.
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Lucy HG Solomon
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Christine Frazier
Date
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2025-04-17
Subject
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Art and artificial intelligence
Art and science
Border Art Collective
California State University San Marcos -- Faculty
California State University San Marcos. Biology
California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective
California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory
California State University San Marcos. School of Arts
Environmentalism in art
Interdisciplinary approach in education
Mars Rover Project
Physarum polycephalum
Coverage
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Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland)
San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Lucy HG Solomon
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text
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HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17_transcript
Art and artists
CSUSM history
History Department internship
Women's experience
-
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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Tanis Brown
Interviewee
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Lucy Wheeler
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml
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photojournalism;education;college;administration;agriculture;gender
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6.0 Wheeler, Lucy. Interview, April 28, 2023. SC027-045 00:39:22 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Family farms--California ; Photography ; Adult students ; Education, Higher ; Oral history photojournalism ; education ; college ; administration ; agriculture ; gender Lucy Wheeler Tanis Brown mp4 WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2d8c14513d98ce9e8b8309f763c8fe46.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Interview of Lucy Wheeler by Tanis Brown and Charlie Colladay, April 28, 2023. Interview conducted at San Marcos Historical Society. 0 97 Post-retirement, education, and the gift of gab Wheeler discusses moving to San Marcos after retirement at the age of 80 and discovering photography through classes at Palomar College. Wheeler also touches on what she did before retirement, and how she discovered her “gift of gab,” especially for interviewing others, through going to back to school at Nazarene College. Palomar College ; Nazarene College ; photography 0 417 Photography Wheeler discusses in more detail her coursework in photography and her return to college which she illuminates through an encounter at a skate park. Wheeler also discusses the art of interviewing in further detail, and recounts a lesson she learned along those lines from a photography class. photography ; interviewing ; skate parks ; Sam Hodgins 0 822 Connecting the dots Wheeler discusses her concept behind her business card which states, “Connecting the dots,” and idea that originated from a man who worked with dementia patients and helped them connect the dots to their pasts. dementia ; memory 0 978 Technology, the pandemic, and Wheeler’s past Wheeler discusses her work for a medical laboratory in 1965, and how she learned to view and love technology as a tool. Wheeler ties those lessons to what carried her through the pandemic. Sperry Rand ; Control Data ; Covid-19 pandemic 0 1218 San Diego County’s para-farms and family farms Wheeler recounts being raised on a farm and San Diego County’s farming conditions. Wheeler outlines where her interest in documenting local farms arose during the pandemic, and discusses some of the para-farms’ farmers that she’s interviewed. para-farms ; family farms ; Yasukochi Farm ; Neil Nagata ; Rodriguez Farm ; Joe Rodriguez ; Susan Cupaiuolo ; Primavera Orchard ; cherimoya farming ; Covid-19 pandemic ; San Diego Food System Alliance 0 1801 Oral history Wheeler discusses the insights she’s learned about oral history and conducting a successful interview. oral history ; research 0 1947 Next projects Wheeler elaborates on her plans to expand her oral history work to look towards the future of San Diego farming, her “energy budget,” and her priorities for her future. Wheeler wraps up by discussing what she has learned about using her “gift of gab.” San Diego Food Alliance ; future of farming 0 oral history Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:37.000 Okay. Good morning. This is April 28th, 2023. My name is Tanis Brown. I’m being assisted by Charlie Colladay on the camera this morning, and we are part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Lucy Wheeler is not only a member of our cohort, but she has also agreed to be an interviewee. So, we are very thankful, Lucy, that you’re willing to speak with us today. And I met you about a year ago when you stopped by the San Marcos Historical Society and brought some pictures of a famous artist from San Marcos. His name is Ted Wade. And you started to telling me about your experiences once you moved to San Marcos. And you handed me a little card introducing yourself. It said “Connecting the dots” which just was so intriguing to me. And then we had an exchange, and you were enthralled by getting involved with the Oral History Project. So, I’d like you to talk to our audience about how you got interested in conducting oral histories way before our project and some of the things that you’ve done since you came to San Marcos. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:03:42.000 Thank you so much for having me. It’s my pleasure to have been part of this program. The way I got started was I believe that everyone has been given a gift and thank goodness they’re not all the same because it brings different pictures to a project. And my gift, I think, was a gift of gab. And in this, back in the 1900s, 1930s, women weren’t supposed to do all this exploring and curiosity things. So, I kind of put a lid on that gift of gab and I prattled day and night. It took me a good number of years before I realized that I did have a voice, and once I found it and what I really wanted to say, I prattled less and listened more. And this is kind of how it evolved. And when I came to San Marcos, I had just retired at 80, and I thought I’ve carried this camera around with me all over. I’m going to go back and take better pictures. The first assumption from probably my classmates, but certainly people that I was photographing, was she must be coming back to take better pictures of her great-grandchildren. And that wasn’t the case. The case was to take better pictures and as I began to do that, I began to shut up and listen more and look more. And through this process—and I would like to say that it is not a matter of age, of when we discover what that gift is. It could start back in our 40s. It could—the 60s. Mine happened to be after I was 80 when I went back to school. 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:45.000 And where did you go to school, Lucy? 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:50.000 I have a degree in Business Administration from University of Minnesota. 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.000 Okay. 00:03:51.000 --> 00:05:26.000 And through an evolutionary process, I worked as a management consultant for Fortune 500 companies, and I’ve been in all 50 states and from the North Pole to the South Pole. I lived in Japan a couple of years. And through all of this, I’d had this mantra of “just keep moving.” Then I began to really listen and see that there’s stories. Everybody has a story. Everybody has characteristics and traits that they’d like to look for. And I’ve discovered that mine is actually interviewing. And it was through the help of Dean Nelson who is the head of the Journalist Department at Nazarene College. And he had just published a book at the beginning of Covid. Thank goodness he signed it for me. And I’ve been, through the last couple of years, taking classes through Zoom and keeping—working on it. So, I stepped into your offer at a perfect time and now my goal is to ask better questions so that when I’m asking the people that I’m interviewing, ask them the questions that will really make them talk about their true story, not the one that was—we all have kind of a fake story—but looking for that real story in people. That’s my goal. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:40.000 So, what I’m hearing you saying is that once you moved to San Marcos and found some educational opportunities—and I think you told me you went to Palomar College for photography class? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:06:57.000 Oh yes. That’s where I began to really explore that creativity and getting rid of the old ideas that just because I had a camera doesn’t—at my age—doesn’t mean that I’m just taking pictures of my family or my kids. I do street photography for the Chamber of Commerce here in San Marcos. Been doing that for about 4 or 5 years now. And I’ve been involved in that. My characteristic or habits of exploring were kind of construed as masculine traits back in the 20s and 30s. And not to express—Well, all of a sudden, I am expressing. And I think, for a while, where I live here viewed me as a likeable tomboy. (Tanis chuckles) And now, I’m not. I’m just this loveable little old lady who is curious and adventuresome and turning it all into a better perspective where I listen more and talk less. 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:12.000 So, going back to school in your 80s, how many of your classmates—Did you have study groups or go on field trips or anything like that to hone your craft? 00:07:12.000 --> 00:08:42.000 No. No. We had assignments that we were to go out and—like one was speed, just to photograph in proper way. And this was very unique. I went to a skateboard place. And this gentleman who was very well dressed and saw me with my camera had a little grandson with him. And he had a designer cap on, a little tricycle, and he was following his grandfather around. So, the gentleman came over to me and he said, “Excuse me. What are you going to do with those pictures?” And I said, “Oh. I’m taking a class, and the assignment is speed.” He said, “Well, if my son ever saw him on Facebook, he’d kill me.” And I said, “Really? Well, I’m not taking them. I’m taking them, the speed of these” who were really good skaters, just flying through the air with the skateboard. So, a little bit later, he came over and asked me, he said “So, you’re going to Palomar.” And most of my class, I would say 50% of us were older people who were looking for just honing a skill, something that they would really do. Most of them were people that were looking for to go out and hike in the desert, you know, and walk all night and wait for the sun to come up on the right spot. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:43.000 Ahh. 00:08:43.000 --> 00:10:13.000 But that wasn’t my intent. Anyway, he came over and he said, “So, you went back to college.” He said, “Hhmmm. The other day—” He said, “I’ve been retired now for about a year.” And he said, “The other day I went in to get a cup of coffee and my wife said, ‘Get out of my kitchen!’” (Tanis laughs) And he said, “What do I do now (shrugs) I’m retired and I don’t have anything really doing. I never thought of going back to college.” So, it’s exploring what’s available to us. And I’ll never forget how he was like “What do I do now?” (shrugs) And I see so many of my peers that are like “I don’t know how to get on Zoom. I don’t know how to handle Covid.” It has been a very upsetting time, and things are confused on any level. So, that was kind of the beginning of accepting my wonder and curiosity. And creativity was also considered back in the 2000s, well, especially during the Great Depression. Because survival was what you looked for. Curiosity was a waste of time. Buck up! And get out there and, you know, get the work done. 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:14.000 Okay. 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:15.000 So— 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:35.000 So, in addition to going to Palomar and taking photography and then, as I understand it, during the pandemic you got involved in interviewing or honing your interviewing skills. Now, tell me about how that got started. 00:10:35.000 --> 00:13:42.000 Well, there was a gentleman who is now I think the head of the photography department of the Union Tribune. His name was Sam Hodgkins. He had a workshop down at Balboa Park. And I was going to take an interviewing kind of class, of photography, photojournalism. And what he did was he told us about how you go out and you interview people out in the street, the vendors. And in that class, there was I think about 12 of us, 12 or 14, but there were 3 or 4 engineers. They were perfectionists when it came to the photography, but they didn’t know how to talk to people. I went out and with my gift of gab, “Hi. What’s your first name?” (Tanis chuckles) And I came back, and I had four. But there was one lady who was getting ready, and she had a keyboard. And she was getting ready to put it up and I said, “Oh!” The sun was just perfect on the keyboard. And the background was back, but her hands on the keyboard. And I interviewed her, and I asked her, she said “Well, I’m working my way through college, City College. And this is my way of making money, is with the tips.” And so, I went back, and we had to show these pictures. And I showed mine with the keyboard. And Sam said, “Whose picture is this?” And I said, “It’s mine.” (raises her finger and has a sheepish look on her face) And he said, “Now, that’s what I’m talking about. When you’re interviewing, get the photo that draws people in to asking the questions.” And I said, “Do you think I could make a living at this?” (both chuckle) And he laughed. And soon after that, in the photojournalism class, I had to interview a person who was doing what he was doing. So, I interviewed him. And we did it at the new public library downtown. And then, he and his wife—he’d just gotten married—went to Brooklyn, New York, and she was a writer, a journalist. And he was the photographer. And quite often, like in The Tribune even, you’ll have a photographer and then you’ll have a storyteller on a different aspect of it. But I kind of liked the fact that I can go out and take photos of the vendors, those candid moments that you try to get, and then ask them the right questions. And the more I practiced, the better it is. So, this was a great opportunity for growth for me, when I met you. But that’s how it all got started. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:14:04.000 That’s great. Well, your business card says, “Connecting the dots” and I think that’s a perfect description of what you do. And you talked to me a little bit about where that idea came from. You want to share that again? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:09.000 Um, I’m not sure. 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:14.000 The man you met at the dementia-- 00:14:14.000 --> 00:16:18.000 Oh! Yes. There was a gentleman who had worked with dementia people, and they were used to him. And he note—And he was there, and they were comfortable with his being there. So, they just kind of assumed that he was part of the woodwork. But he observed that as the family would come to visit the people with dementia, they might not know their spouse. They might not know their children. But if they were given a photo of themselves when they were young, like 17, maybe after they’d been in the service, that they would light up and just say “Ah. That! I know! I recognize that.” So, then he began to have them pose in front of like a sink if they’re washing their face. One gentleman had a smile on his face because he saw himself as a member of the service in World War II. So, he then imposed that photo of him, when he was young, into the mirror. So, he was seeing himself as young. Another one was a lady who was a nurse. And she was also getting dressed. But behind her was a different nurse, probably a therapist that was holding a walker. And the lady is looking in the mirror, of herself as a nurse, thinking “I should be the one that’s doing that because that was my job.” And you could see the confusion on her face in both of those pictures. Another was a pharmacist who was stirring his little cup of coffee and he saw himself as a pharmacist stirring, when he was young. So, I thought, you don’t really have to have dementia to remember that. So, I started practicing in that and it was enjoyable. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:41.000 So, the other thing I am really fascinated about is that, during the pandemic, that you took a wherewithal to look into continuing your education on Zoom. (Lucy chuckles) And so, how did you go about finding all these classes on interviewing or asking the right question? 00:16:41.000 --> 00:19:15.000 Well, I was fortunate in that I was in a—I was working in a medical laboratory in 1965. And at that time—it was in Minneapolis, which is where I had my degree in Business—they decided they were going to automate the laboratories. Sperry Rand and Control Data were both there. And at that time, there were more Fortune 500 companies in Minneapolis than any other city. That’s not the case now. But they were going to automate this laboratory. And this young man, probably 30, 35, was working for Sperry Rand and he said, “I know you people are really scared you’ll lose your job and there won’t be a need for you. But” he said, “this is just a tool. Technology is a tool. And it’s meant to help you, as a tool. What it can’t do is it can’t see the beautiful sunset where the Mississippi River and the Minnesota River come together. It can’t see the shoreline. It can’t see the sunsets. It’s just a tool.” I fell in love with technology then. And through my career as a management consultant then, I really came to appreciate more and more. I had my first computer when it was still a DOS. And quite different than it is now, much bigger. But I kept up with it and became kind of addicted to Windows. Now, I’ve changed to a iPhone because of Steve Jobs and his introduction to the school systems (Tanis laughs). But, and that’s another learning curve, switching from Windows to the iPhone. At any rate, then I was pretty much aware of the technology and its value when Covid hit. And I immediately was on to this whole thing. That was how I met Dean Nelson, any number of groups that would get—and you can talk to them and discuss things. And it was wonderful. It really carried me through the two years. I was not isolated because of that. 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:25.000 That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, truly, you know we talk about lifelong learners, and I certainly think that you are a perfect example of a lifelong learner! 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.000 Well— 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.000 And a lesson for all of us. 00:19:28.000 --> 00:20:15.000 —I think that all of us need to stop and look at what our gifts are and learn to develop them earlier. I’m grateful that I did. It all worked out in a constructive way. But we all have them. And it’s not everybody who is going to be an interviewer. A lot of people are really very, very creative. That has nothing to do with that. You don’t have to be an extrovert (both chuckle) in order to do that. So, I would encourage people to stop and think about the moment, not the future, not the past. But what do I want to have happen? 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:16.000 Yeah. 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.000 What do I want to express? 00:20:18.000 --> 00:21:20.000 So, I’d like to move our interview into now, once we got involved with this North County Oral History project. And during our first class—and we talked about our assignment and going out and interviewing at least two, and maybe three, people—you immediately knew exactly what direction you wanted to go in. And it was with the farming industry. And I was amazed because a lot of us that were in the class were kind of ticking off who might we interview. But you were really driven to capture some stories of people in the farming industry. So, I’m wondering how, where did that interest come from, Lucy? 00:21:20.000 --> 00:25:29.000 Well, I was raised on the farm in the Midwest. But I didn’t like it. Didn’t want to be there. (Tanis chuckles) It was isolated. It was, you know, not a—They needed men for the work of the farm. But the one interesting thing about this area is San Diego is the ninth largest city in the United States. But within its county, it has more farms—and especially para-farms—than any other county in the United States. That’s an unusual situation. I also know that it has 23 different kinds of soil that grows one thing on one area and then 10 miles down the road something else is better. They found that flowers and strawberries love the ocean whereas olive trees don’t. But inland, olive trees are great because the soil is different. The moisture is different. And, at the same time, there’s a crisis right now in our expensive way of living that developers want to develop the land rather than grow crops. And they would like to have condos instead of strawberries. So, it has put all of us into a very precarious situation about what’s the future of farming here. So, in order to know the past, present, and future, what better way than to go and look at the history. And, because I hang out at farmer’s markets—and in 2017 there were 5000 para-farms, which means 10 acres or less. They’re due to do a survey next year, 2014 (2024). This is done by the Farm Bureau. And I’d already been to their yearly groups and the Farm Bureau and that, and all of the farmer’s markets. And then when Vista was the only market that never closed during the pandemic. And he stood up to them and said, “If the grocery stores are open, we’re open.” And there were some vendors that came too. So, I had an inroad. So, I went back to a couple of vendors and started just curiously saying “Where did your farm start?” And I chose, first of all, the one that has the strawberry farm. And Mr. Nagata whose family came here in 1902 and was able to buy land at that time, and he married the Yasukochi family who were famous for their—everything from CSA. And their son, Neil Nagata, is the Farmer of the Year this year, here in San Diego County. Then I looked a little further and there was a farm up in north Escondido, close to Temecula, that is the Rodriguez farm. And they migrated here from Mexico in 1923. And I interviewed Joe Rodriguez who is the third generation of five in their farm. And then the third one was—and I have trouble with the last name on this because the gentleman was Italian, Capo-- (Cupaiuolo) 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.000 C. Susan C! (both laugh) 00:25:32.000 --> 00:30:01.000 Right! Exactly. And he passed away in 2020. But they had, he and his wife, had about 20 years of very successful cherimoya (sic) orchard which is very unusual and unique. And, as a side note, cherimoyas are only grown in San Diego County and Orange County. They won’t grow anywhere else in the United States because of the soil conditions and the moisture. But, at any rate, he passed away in 2020. So, I interviewed his wife. And she told about how they were able to make a construct of this. And this very representative, six acres, and very representative of how these farms that are under 10 acres can survive. And a lot of them didn’t during the Covid. They didn’t know how to market. They didn’t know how to sell their products. Their audience was gone. Instead of “Here’s my tomatoes I grew” where do the people come when the markets weren’t even open? So, there was a lot of things that her husband had contributed in that knowledge. He did a lot of work with Frazier Farms and promoted the cherimoyas (sic). And they had backups of ways that they survived. It was very, very interesting. And it was through this past adventure kind of thing that I’d been doing anyway that I continued then with that and pursued it, and fortunately found three families that had immigrated as well. So, as the techs from Cal State are doing these hashtags, you can look at it from immigrants that began farming. And especially the Rodriguez family was very interested in—because they’ve gone organic. And organic is a special kind of treatment that they have to go through to get their soil fertilized. It’s very costly. And yet he wants to promote now that he’s getting older. He would like to retire and just help younger people become interested in growing. Right now, the kids don’t want to be farmers. The immigrants don’t want to be farmers. Mr. Nagata told me that if they have to pay $15 an hour for minimum wage now to have people pick strawberries, they can’t afford, in this day and age, to sell wholesale. So, these things are all building up as to how they did it ; what we’re in the crisis with right now ; and then, with this San Diego Food System Alliance, look at new ways of developing foods that maybe we’ve never thought of before. Hydroponic (sic) gardening is one. There’s a few others—turning like—going against, not against, but seeing that milk products with cheese and that sort of thing maybe isn’t as productive for our own health as maybe almond milk that has plant-based cheese. And that’s scary to some people to think “Oh, my goodness. You know, let’s go back to the olden days.” (Tanis chuckles) And things change. No matter who we are or where we’re going. Attitudes change. Opinions change. Now, everybody has one whereas 70 years ago, no, you didn’t do that. So, it has been a really exciting time. I really love being out there and just talking to people about how did you do this and what do we do now? And where are my great-grandchildren going to go eat their lunch? 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:18.000 Yeah. I’m curious because you seem so well-versed in understanding kind of the food production and history and future, is there anything through the interviews that you learned that surprised you? 00:30:18.000 --> 00:31:01.000 Um, not surprised me so much. But it brought out how do you ask better questions to get answers from people? In the storytelling process, the interviewing process, which is my thing, you have to learn to listen, and then think about it. And I made a couple of mistakes. But sometimes you have to make the mistakes to realize that that’s another growing experience, you know. Like “Oh, maybe I could have done that better. How can I do that better?” And ask a better question in a better way. 00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.000 Mm-hmm. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.000 That’s what I think I’ve learned the most. 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:30.000 Yeah. So, for anybody who’s listening to this interview and might consider either being interviewed or interviewing someone, how would you recommend or promote the idea of participating in oral histories? 00:31:30.000 --> 00:32:27.000 Well, I think if they know what their interest is—and mine just happened to be agriculture—but whatever it might be, do all the homework you can. Do the research of what do I need to know to ask the right questions to get to my point? The whole purpose of an interview is what’s the point? And if the point is to make a better understanding so we can build on the future, great. Whatever that avenue might be, do your homework. And one of the best sources is Madame Librarian. They are great at helping you see sources. They know how to get on the internet and dig deep. And the deeper you dig, the more insight you get about asking the right questions. 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:44.000 Well, that’s great. So, as we wind down this interview, I would like to ask what’s next for Lucy Wheeler? (Lucy chuckles) What do you have brewing in your mind about where you go from here, Lucy? 00:32:44.000 --> 00:35:59.000 Last year, when we started this project, it was in September I believe? And right after that, the San Diego Food System Alliance had their second big global kind of meeting. And they met over at Escondido at the Center. And I went to it. And all of a sudden, I was in rooms with these future-thinking farmers of saying “I don’t even understand the language” because they had different speakers and different ways of presenting. And that’s when I started to say I need to dig deeper. So, I’m digging deeper into how this Alliance now is viewing the food system that they’re imagining. And part of it has gotten involved with the climate part. They’re trying to draw in it as well as drawing in all nationalities, not just one, and trying to understand it more global, really raise the arena. And I’d like to be part of that. And I had asked them when I went to it. It was just a few weeks after we’d started. And they just sent me, the next one will be in October. And they will be discussing this, and I’ll have a much better language to use by the time I go to that. And I don’t—I have—One of the things that happens as you get older is you don’t have the energy you had when you were 20 or 30. So, I have my energy budget more in focus on how I can put that into my future. And for however long. None of us know how long we’re going to live, you know, if it’s going to be tomorrow or 20 years from now. But, in that interim, I plan to just keep doing that kind of thing because it interests me and it’s my reason for getting up in the morning. But I don’t have the energy to spend all day on it. It’s putting it into priorities. And that’s one of my priorities, is that goal of being interested in what might I contribute to this. And we can. We just don’t think we can. We get caught up in our own thoughts of the past. And we don’t open our imagination. And these people are opening the imagination of what can be possible, maybe more healthy. I’m not sure. 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:26.000 More healthy. So, is there anything that I haven’t asked you about your educational process and your taking what you’ve learned and actually doing something about it in our little interview? Is there anything that I missed that you would like to tell our audience? 00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:58.000 No. I think that’s pretty much it. As we get older, things get into a different perspective like the energy. But there’s still the priority of what’s important to us. And one of the things that’s really important to me is to be able to feel like that I could contribute something. And that just means digging deeper. Not worry about my toe hurt when I was two. (Tanis laughs) 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:07.989 All right. So, just to clarify, what year did you come to San Marcos? 00:37:07.989 --> 00:37:08.000 2010. 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.000 2010. 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:57.000 So, the last 13 years have been dedicated to really honing in on something that I always wanted to do all my life. I think I was born with the gift of gab. I just didn’t know how to use it. And it took me a lot of years to figure out that it’s pretty nice to listen. And if you really stop to think about it, when you’re talking about the weather or you’re talking about the neighbor, it’s not always focused on what our traits or skills could be, what the energy level could be. It’s a distraction. And, yeah, I think listen more and talk less. 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:12.000 All right. Well, this has been a pleasure for me to have you share this with our audience and be part of the collection at Cal State San Marcos. So, thank you so much. 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.000 I have enjoyed it to the hilt. 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:18.000 Great. Okay, enjoy, Lucy. 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.000 Thank you. 00:38:19.000 --> 00:39:22.000 Take care. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 
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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Wheeler, Lucy. Interview, April 28, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab."
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-045
Subject
The topic of the resource
Adult students
Education, Higher
Family farms -- California
Oral history
Photography
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-28
Format
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video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lucy Wheeler
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tanis Brown
Charlie Colladay
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Lucy Wheeler
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience