12 10 208 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joel Rafael OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Rafael, Joel. Interview September 23rd, 2025. SC027-087 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Joel Rafael Jennifer Fabbi moving image RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/032bee5939ae038703eabe2141fb43d4.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction 0 56 Employment at the San Diego Wild Animal Park In the mid-eighties, Rafael began working at the San Diego Wild Animal Park (now Safari Park). His first position was to support the summer concert series as a crew member through a variety of activities. Shortly after, he became a Public Relations Specialist for the Park, where he eventually coordinated media-oriented location shoots. Wild Animal Park ; Safari Park ; Zoological Society ; public relations ; condors 0 1005 Working for the Steve Powers Craft Festival In 1987, Rafael got a side job as a stage manager at the Steve Powers Craft Festival, which traveled around the southwest United States. He coordinated both a music stage and a variety stage. During this time, he met Jim and Teresa Hinton and began to bring them in on his own recordings, forming a group called Reluctant Angel. Teamsters ; Steve Powers Craft Festival ; stage manager ; Jim Hinton ; Teresa Hinton ; Reluctant Angel ; Healing Heart 0 1410 Music industry's significant interest in Rafael's music Rafael sends his demos he recorded as Reluctant Angel to Paul Rothchild, a producer that he had met earlier. Paul communicated that Rafael would potentially be offered a publishing contract. Two additional band members were added: a drummer, David O'Brien, and a guitarist, Davey Allen. After an audition, the band waited for several months. After a second audition, Rafael was told that the record company had decided not to move forward with the contract. Reluctant Angel dissolves. Paul Rothchild ; David O'Brien ; Davey Allen ; Elektra Records ; Jack Holzman ; Donald Miller ; audition ; Elektra Records 0 2954 Formation of the Joel Rafael Band Rafael begins again as a duo with Carl Johnson, and guitar player he had known of in high school. The duo played many small coffee houses all over southern California. They added a drummer, Jeff Berkley, and Rafael's daughter, Jamaica Rafael, as violinist. The Joel Rafael Band release its first album in 1994. Carl Johnson ; Jeff Berkley ; Jamaica Rafael ; Joel Rafael Band 0 3229 Evolution of radio and its effect on the Band As radio was going through a transition, new genres were established including Adult Album Alternative, which allowed a lot of independent music. Because of this and a relationship with KKOS in Carlsbad, the Joel Rafael Band began to show up on playlists. Rafael formed a production team with his daughter, Corrina, The band began won a contest that got them an opening spot at the Troubadours of Folk Festival at University of California Los Angeles. Adult Album Alternative ; KKOS ; Troubadours of Folk Festival 0 3994 The Kerrville Folk Festival A new folk festival, The Kerrville Folk Festival, opens in Kerrville, TX. In 1994, Rafael submits songs the Band is recording for an album, and they are chosen to play at the Festival. Although the Band did not win the contest the first year, Rafael and his daughter returned in 1995 and won. Rafael feels recognized for his hard work. Because it is nationally known, Kerrville becomes a major stepping stone for the Band. Kerrville Folk Festival ; Texas ; Jamaica Rafael ; Joel Rafael Band ; recognition 0 Oral history NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Hello, it's Jen Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Joel Rafael for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History Program. Today is September 23rd, 2025, and it is 11:20 a.m. This interview is taking place at the California State University San Marcos Library, Kellogg Library. Joel, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:32.000 Of course. 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:52.000 This is our second session of the interview, and we wanted to start off with--we were talking about some of the jobs that you held during the time that you were developing your music, and you had just gotten a job at the San Diego, what was called then the Wild Animal Park. 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:53.000 Right. 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:56.914 So let's start there. Tell us about that job. 00:00:56.914 --> 00:16:26.000 Okay. Well, I went in to the Wild Animal Park and applied for a job because I was pretty desperate for regular income. And they had some openings. It was the summer, I believe it was summer of 1985--one year either way. I could probably find that out. But in any case, I was able to get a job there, a part-time job, for the summer. They had a summer concert series in an area of the park they called the Mahala Amphitheater. It was sort of a big grassy area, and they would do--they had been doing for a few years--a summer series of concerts there. Mostly, I guess what you'd call, oldies, you know, sort of established groups from like the sixties and seventies mainly. Jan and Dean, America--I'm trying to think of some of the groups that were there. The combination of folks that were in, say, like the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band at that point. Those were the kind of bands that they were booking. And I got a job as a concert assistant, which basically, I was on a crew with about four other people. And we would come in on like Thursday and start preparing the concert area, the stage, cleaning it up. And then on Friday we would literally set up all the microphones and get the equipment out and get it all ready for the show. And then the sound people would come in and get everything going. And then they would send us up to various jobs around there, cleaning the stage, the backstage area, the dressing room trailers, going up and getting the food for catering for the artists, that kind of thing. And then during the show, crowd control and running a spotlight, those were kind of the job responsibilities, and that was a part-time job. And I worked at that that summer. And it was a lot of fun, you know, to be there. But they would only let you in a part-time job, I think they wanted to try to keep you to like 20 hours a week. Sometimes you'd go a little over that. But they wanted to keep you at 20 so they wouldn't have to give you insurance and that kind of thing. And the thing that was good about having a job with the Zoological Society was that once you had a job there--whether it was part-time, if it was part-time or full-time--when new jobs were available, they would put them up on a board that was only accessible by the employees. Those are the only people that would see the board. I guess there were some administrative jobs that they would send out to publications, to certain publications, to try to draw in people appropriate for those jobs and educationally and so forth. And so a job came up on the board for the title of Public Relations Assistant. And there were two people working in what was then the Public Relations and Marketing Department at the Wild Animal Park. There was the marketing manager, a lady named Martha Baker, and the public relations coordinator. And that was a guy named Tom Hanscom. Both of them were younger than me, but basically they were running that department. And Public Relations and Marketing was one department. I was just so fortunate to get that job because they had, I think it was like 300 applicants and I was--for what the job actually was, which was mostly clerical, somebody to file, fill out purchase requisitions and do filing and answer the phones. It was kind of a secretarial, clerical position. And that's not my forte (laughter). Clerical work is not my forte. But I could--I might have even said this last time--I could type just fast enough, like, whatever it was, 30 words a minute or something (laughter), I could type just fast enough to be considered. And because I had actually--I'm gonna' back up just a little bit. When the summer concert series ended, I desperately wanted to keep working at the park. But you have to wait for a job to come up that you can apply for. I did actually get a second part-time job going into the fall after the summer. And there wasn't really a name for that job because the situation was that the park had been established in 1972, and this was like now 13-14 years later. And all of these beautiful signs on all of the shops and all the exhibits that had originally been put up in the park were--I guess you'd say they were sandblasted signs, sandblasted and painted signs, very, very crafty-looking wooden signs. And they were all wearing out. The paint was chipping off. And every department--merchandising, food services, signage for exhibits--they all needed, all the signs were just in ill-repair. So they hired me basically as a sign painter. I wasn't in any department, which is very unusual in a huge bureaucracy like that. But I kind of worked under the construction and maintenance guy and kind of under the buildings and grounds guy. So I had two different supervisors from two different departments that were kind of my bosses. And then I was on call for any department that had signs that needed to be refurbished. And so I'd get a call from merchandising, or I'd get a call from gardening, or whatever department that had signs that they needed fixed. And they gave me a golf cart that was mine to use when I was there. So I'd golf cart over to where the sign was, check it out, get a ladder, take it down, figure out what I needed to do to make it new. And then I could go up and requisition paint and brushes and whatever I needed from the supply area. And then I would--there was a little shed right back by the monorail tracks. It was just like a little wood, plywood, wood shed. And that became my office. And I would repair my signs inside that shed and just outside of the shed. It was just my work area. And that might have been my favorite job at the Wild Animal Park. But another job came up, and it was full-time, which meant I could get insurance and a regular 40 (hours per) week salary. And I applied for that public relations job. And because I had gone around to all these different departments and worked with so many people from so many departments at the park, everybody knew me. And I'd made friends with a lot of people. I'm kind of a people person. And so I made the cut. I got hired, even though there were 300 applicants, because I knew both the marketing manager and the public relations coordinator. I'd worked with them on a couple of events that they'd done for the park. And so I got that job, and it was mostly clerical. And I'm gonna' say it's probably about no more than three months-four months into that job, the Zoological Society decided that they were going to separate marketing and public relations and make them two different departments. And by doing that, what they were gonna' do is that Martha, who was the marketing manager, she was now gonna' be at the zoo as the marketing manager for the zoo. There'd be no marketing department at the park, only public relations. And then Tom, who was the public relations coordinator, would now be the public relations manager, and he would handle all news and that kind of thing. So that left me. I was either gonna' be going to the zoo with Martha as a marketing assistant, or I was gonna' be staying at the park with Tom as a public relations assistant. So I pretty much, behind the scenes, went to Tom and begged him to keep me at the park. You know, it was closer to my house. I had a really good working relationship with Tom. We got along really well. And I just didn't want to go down to the zoo. And out of the two, public relations and marketing, I preferred public relations because in a lot of corporations they are combined, but they're really different from each other. Marketing is really different from public relations. And the way that Tom explained that to me was that marketing was like advertising. You know, you pay for visibility. Public relations was about getting visibility for free (laughter). For a story, or something that was going on that was of enough importance to be reported in the newspaper. And so, turned out I got my wish, and I stayed at the park with Tom, and we kind of formed a, we formed a real team, the two of us. Because now it was just the two of us in that department. And we became really good friends. I think maybe a year or two, maybe two years after I was there, I had started coordinating locations. So basically there was a lot of kind of media-oriented things that were going on with public relations. Like there would be news stories. We'd have a new animal born, endangered species, you know, that was being born in captivity. And all of those stories, including the condors, which had at that point, had all been brought in from the wild because they weren't gonna' survive. There were only maybe, I don't know, three or four mating pairs still in the wild. And so Fish and Wildlife and a couple of different zoological societies kind of got together and formed a committee, I guess you'd say, to protect the condors. And the first decision they made was that they needed to be brought in from the wild--because we were gonna' lose 'em all--to see if we could breed condors in captivity. And so that was already in progress when I came into the department. And Tom was very much involved in the news dissemination of that story and was working very closely with the bird curator, who was one of the head condor people nationally. He was the curator of birds at the park, but he was also one of the main people working on the Condor Project (California Condor Recovery Program). And so Tom and I and Bill Toone, the bird curator, and then other bird people were kind of involved in anything that happened with condors. And at that point we had the first captive, hatched condor--happened while I was there. So we disseminated the news on that, Molloko (first condor born in captivity). I don't know if you remember when that all happened, but that was a pretty big deal. And then they--the breeding program was successful enough that a certain point later we started to reintroduce birds into the wild. And now there's a lot of condors in the wild. It's been very successful. So I was involved with all of that, but as an assistant. But I was also coordinating media and video and projects of that kind for things that were not news, but, you know, like we would have--Joan Embery would come up and do a story on a new animal. We had this guy, Dave Scott, who was the weatherman at KUSI, who had a, I guess you'd call it a sidebar program that he presented from time to time on his weather show about different things going on in San Diego. And one of the things he would do would come up to the park, and if there's a new animal that had been born or some story at the park, he would come up and do a little feature on it. And so, whenever that would happen, I would be the person that would accompany those people around to the different areas at the park. And then that kind of morphed into location scouting 'cause there were commercials that wanted to come in and shoot, like MasterCard and MotorTrend. And we did the MotorTrend car of the year layout for their magazine one year there in the East Africa exhibit with rhinos and giraffes and stuff around. And that involved hiring keepers, animal keepers, overtime to work with the film crews and stuff. And I was kind of the coordinator for all that. And so at a certain point, they let me write my own title. And so I created my own job there, which was a Public Relations Production Coordinator. And so anything that was production oriented fell into my area. Also, the other thing I did there was VIP (very important person) tours. So if they had somebody that would come to the zoo, for instance, like a celebrity, a VIP, a lot of times it was celebrities, sometimes politicians, but just somebody they might want to give a special tour to, then they would call me up, and I would meet that person and take the Land Rover and drive them out into the exhibits so they could see the animals up close, answer any questions they had. Photographers that would come in that wanted to photograph a specific animal or had a project they were working on that they needed to access certain areas, I would get them into those areas and make sure that it was safe and that we had keepers out there that knew what to do to make things safe. 00:16:26.000 --> 00:23:30.000 And so that was my job for probably six or seven, maybe eight years at the park. I'd say like eight years of the twelve that I worked there, maybe even ten years of the twelve I worked there. And towards the end of that run, which is right around let's say 1992 or '93--I left the park in '96-- but about 1990-- I'm gonna' say about 1990. Maybe even '89. Let's say '89. I picked up another side job, and I had the full-time job at the park. But I was building up now vacation time, so at a certain point, I'd have like two or three weeks of vacation time built up and that would--it was kind of up to me to schedule that, to use those hours. And I went, when I had that job in public relations, I went from being a regular employee, a Teamster, to being an administrative person. So, I had to retire from the Teamsters Union, which I always took a lot of pride in being a union member with the Teamsters (laughter). But I had to leave the Teamsters, and then I became like an administrative person. So let's see, where was I? About 1989, I picked up this other job with a guy named Steve Powers, and he had a company called the Steve Powers Craft Festival. (This was in 1987.) And he would produce and coordinate craft festivals in like four or five cities during the holidays, like just before Christmas. And then sometimes just before Easter. I think we did a Thanksgiving, a Christmas, an Easter, and a summer--just a summer run of shows. And they would be--we would go to convention centers and set up these big craft festival shows, like in Reno and in Las Vegas, in Phoenix, in Tucson, San Jose--just in all these places where they had convention centers mostly in the southwest. We didn't really go east, but we did Arizona, we did Nevada, we did California. I guess that's pretty much it. And my job was the production coordinator for the Craft Festival. And I managed two stages. I would travel with Steve to the convention centers and help set up the whole convention center with the--it would be him and myself. We would drive out to the convention center, pulling a trailer with all the stuff in it. And then about four or five other people would meet us there that had booths at the craft festival. And he would trade their booth fees for them to come in a day early and help with setup. So we had--that was our setup crew. And we'd kind of all meet at that first festival and set it up, and then when that festival closed down, we'd all travel together to the next festival and reset it up and so on. And I coordinated two stages--a variety stage and a music stage. And one of the acts on the music stage was a couple that did Irish music, Jim and Teresa Hinton. They were a married couple. And we got to be friends 'cause I was always doing their sound. And I had my studio. I built my studio at that point, and they wanted to record. So they lived in San Diego. So they started coming up to my house to record, recorded a couple albums at my studio. And Jim inspired me at a certain point in there, he said, You know, you're recording all these people all the time, and you need to record your own album. And I was recording my own stuff, but I'd never get it done 'cause I had a studio--it's easy to just not get anything done, you know? Whereas if you are booking a studio from someone else, and you're paying an hourly rate, you have to get something done. And that had always been what I'd done in the past. But now I had my own studio, and I just literally wasn't ever finishing anything. I'd go in, and I'd start a song and get it to a certain point, and then I'd be recording somebody else, and I'd go in and record a different song. And, you know, forget about the first one I recorded, and I just never was getting anything done. So Jim said to me, You need to record your own album. And kind of implored me to do that. And so I recorded the Healing Heart album, which is the cassette tape that's in the collection I gave you today. And that was probably in '89. So they recorded a couple albums there. And then, turns out Steve had been hiring them to play on these craft festivals. And I was actually playing one set also. I was doing all the coordination and managing the two stages. But there was Jim and Teresa, and then there was kind of a bluegrass band. And then there was kind of a modern kind of Eagles rock kind of a band. And then there was kind of a fifties rock band. So there were like four acts that would rotate through the day on the music stage. And then they had a magician and a comedian and a juggler on a variety stage, and we all got to be great friends, just traveling to these different shows. But what I did is I started to bring Jim and Teresa in on some of the stuff I was recording--some of my songs--to do harmonies 'cause they were really good singers. And that kind of evolved into us working together more, and we kind of formed a group that started performing at the craft festivals called Reluctant Angel, which was the name of one of my songs and became the name of my publishing company, Reluctant Angel Music, which that's still the name of my publishing company. And we started to record some demos. You know, we call 'em demos, like just demonstrations of the songs. And we recorded about, I think probably four songs, five songs, a couple of Jim's songs, a couple of my songs. And they really were sounding really good. 00:23:30.000 --> 00:30:04.000 And so I decided that I would call up this guy, a producer that I had met, and I think I mentioned it in my earlier interview. He--Paul Rothchild. He produced Bonnie Rait. And earlier in his career, he produced Judy Collins' folk music, Tom Paxton, the Paul Butterfield Blues Band, which was the first electric band on Elektra Records. So he was already like a super producer. And I had met him in 1976 because he held a song for Bonnie Rait, and Bonnie Rait and he held a song that she was gonna' possibly record on her album. This is before she was really famous. She didn't record the song, but we remained friends all those years. So I decided I would send these demos to Paul Rothchild with a note that said, Hey, do you know a music attorney or someone in the music business that might be interested in what we're doing? I didn't really ask him personally because kind of my experience with him was we'd become friends and we'd stayed in touch more or less, but they hadn't done my song when they held it. So I didn't really have a particular in with him other than knowing that he was connected to the music business and maybe he might listen to this stuff and know somebody that might be interested. And I didn't hear anything for a while, and then it got to be the holidays. This was before cell phones. And so we were on vacation. I'm gonna' say it was a few weeks before Christmas and sort of the typical thing is in the music world, probably in business everywhere, is that nothing much happens during the holidays. Once it gets to be November, don't expect much to happen until after the first of the year. And I think it's especially true in music if you're trying to get some attention, it's better to wait 'til the springtime. But I sent him these tapes, and it was holiday times, so I didn't really expect anything right off the bat. But it was about two weeks later, we were up in Santa Cruz on vacation, and I just decided to call my phone and check my answer machine--'cause we didn't have cell phones then, but we had answer machine--and just see if we had any messages. Not from him particularly, but just anything. And there was one message that was from Paul Rothchild. And he said, Hey, this is Paul Rothchild. I'm calling you about your music. He says, Why don't you give me a call at home? Here's my number. Let's talk about your music. And it just blew my mind (laughter). I was like, Whoa. And so I called it back, and he said he was really interested in the stuff we'd sent and that he'd played it for a guy that he'd worked for for years--that had hired him many years ago in the music business, but he couldn't tell me who he was right now. But that he was a very connected in the music business and at this point, owned a small record company and a publishing company. And that he felt that if I could send him some more demos of the quality that I'd sent him that this person would be inclined to offer me a recording and a publishing contract. And so, of course, we were just over the moon. And so we just started recording more demos--me and Jim and Teresa. And we brought in a friend, an old friend of mine named David O'Brien, who was a drummer, to play drums on some of the stuff. And then one of the guys who had the fifties retro band with the craft festival was a guy who'd been in the music business for years but had had marginal success but was well known as a guitar player. His name was Davey Allen. And he had a group called Davey Allen and the Arrows. And they had recorded basically surf music, instrumental surf music. But he had also recorded music for a couple of the motorcycle movies of the--I guess they were in the sixties, some of these motorcycle movies that came out there, kinda' like B movies. And they would have this electric music. A lot of that was recorded by Davey Allen and the Arrows. And so he had a group called Joe Cool and the Rumblers, and they were the fifties group, right? That played at the craft festival. So we got to know Davey. And so we brought him in to do some lead guitar, electric lead guitar on some of the stuff. So we'd kind of formed this foursome--it was basically the three of us, well, it was a five-piece, actually. It was the three of us, plus the drummer and the guitar player. And we kept sending these demos to Paul and then at a certain point, he said, You know, really liking this stuff you're sending. And I can tell you now, the guy that I've been playing this stuff for is Jack Holzman. And Jack Holzman is the guy who started Elektra Records in the late fifties and hired me--Paul Rothchild--to record these, the great folk groups of the late fifties--Tom Paxton, Judy Collins. I forget all the different names--John Sebastian, The Lovin' Spoonful. These were great groups. And then, later, Paul Butterfield Blues Band, which was the first electric band. And then after that, Love, and just so many groups. I mean, Elektra, it was like one of the three big labels. And Holzman was like a music mogul. I mean, when he told me that, all I could think of was The Doors movie where Paul Rothchild and Jack Holzman are portrayed in the movie and the scene where they walk out and offer Jim Morrison a recording deal. That was kind of running through our heads. We watched the movie, and we're going like, I can't believe these are the guys that are listening to our stuff, you know? 00:30:04.000 --> 00:46:36.000 So eventually they set up an audition at a club in Santa Monica called At My Place. And it was right on Santa Monica Boulevard. And Paul Rothchild knew the owner of the club. So what he did is he was able to secure the club. It was on a Wednesday night or something, from eight o'clock until, or from seven o'clock until nine o'clock or something like that. And so we came in early and set up and did a sound check. He came in and mixed our sound for us. And then it was an invite only. So we invited some friends, and then Jack Holzman and his wife and his brother and some other people from the, where there were business associates of his came in and filled the place up. And we did this concert audition. And when we finished, you walked off the stage into a little, not really a dressing room area, but a little off-stage area at this club. And Jack Holzman, just like in that Doors movie, Jack Holzman and Paul Rothchild came back and told us how much they enjoyed it. And Jack Holzman was saying, You guys have a really great group, and I think Paul Rothchild is the perfect guy to produce you guys, and we really like what you're doing. And they offered us a development deal for a recording contract. They just, it just languished, (Phone rings) Sorry about that. And nothing happened. We kept sending him demos and just nothing happened. At a certain point, Paul Rothchild asked me if I knew a manager or anybody in the music business that, if we did get an actual deal on the table--which he was trying to make happen for us 'cause he really liked what we were doing--that we would need to have some kind of representation. And I didn't really have any representation at that point, but what happened was I told a few people at the Wild Animal Park that this was all going on. And one of those people was a girl who had worked at the park for years. She was a mammal keeper. And she was specifically a gorilla keeper. She'd worked with the gorilla troop there for years and was a real expert on primates. And we'd become friends over the years that I'd worked there. And we were having lunch together one day at our lunch break, and I was telling her all about this record deal--lingering, hanging record deal. And she said, Do you have a manager or anybody in the music business to guide you through this? And I said, No, not really. I said, I mean, I know about copyrights and the things I've learned on my own over the years through being in music all these years. But I don't have any real professional management or anything. And she said, Well, I'm going to introduce you to my brother. He's Jackson Browne's road manager. So she introduced me to him, and we had a phone conversation. His name is Mike Sexton and goes by Coach 'cause he was originally a coach when he got hired into the music business to be a road manager. And he called me up, and we had a conversation and he said, well, he could hook me up with one of three different managers, personal managers that he worked with. He could introduce me to one of three of them that could probably guide me through this process. One of them was Elliot Roberts, who was Neil Young's manager. And also kind of Steve Stills' manager off and on. And then there was another guy named Bill Siddens, who had been the Doors' road manager but was now a personal manager. I think he managed David Crosby, I think at that point. And then Graham Nash, I forget what his manager's name was, but maybe--I can't remember. There were three managers, Siddens and Elliot Roberts. And then the third manager was Jackson Browne's manager, Donald Miller. And I said I would like to meet Donald Miller, Jackson Browne's manager, because Jackson Browne was like on the top of my list. He was the best writer that I knew of. Really, I, as far as I was concerned, he was just one of the best songwriters that I'd ever heard. And his level of support for environmental issues, there was just a lot of integrity attached to him and his music. And so, I liked the other guys' music quite a lot, everybody that he mentioned, but something about Jackson Browne, that was kind of the area I just felt that was gonna' work best for me. So he introduced me to Donald Miller, who goes by Buddha. That's his nickname. So he told me, Well my name's Don Miller, but my friends call me Buddha. So he had me come up to his house up in Studio City and meet him personally. He was also managing Jennifer Warnes at the time. So he said like, Hey, if you've got any songs that might be good for Jennifer Warnes, bring those along. So I took some of those songs up. We had an initial meeting. I left the tapes with him, and he just said he would be there when they made a decision. When they finally made us an offer, he would be glad to guide us through it and hook us up with a good attorney that he knew that could walk us through, so we would get a fair deal. And so then it was just a waiting game. And I would check in with him, and he used some vernacular that I won't repeat, but basically the gist of it was they either need to get their act together or forget about it. I'd say, well, he'd say, well what's going on? If they said anything? Is anything new going on? I go, no. They're just telling us to keep sending more demos. And he says, Well, I would tell them to (laughter)--and I won't say what he said, but it was basically do this or get out of town (laughter). And so I, to tell you the truth, I was just intimidated to the point where I wasn't gonna' say that to them. I wasn't gonna' say, Well, hey, you need to tell us what's going on now. I wasn't gonna' make a demand on Jack Holzman and Paul Rothchild, who I also highly respected. I hadn't really met Jack yet, but I knew who he was. And so finally they set up an audition, and it was at the At My Place club. We went there, we did that, they offered us the deal. I guess I covered that. And so we are in this waiting period now, and it went on for months. Like it went on for nine months. And so, finally Paul kind of indicated to me that they were kind of getting cold feet, that attitudes were kind of changing with the people he'd been talking to. Now I didn't know who all of those were. I knew he was talking to Jack. He basically said you have two fans at the company, Jack Holzman and myself. He says, But there's some other people that are at the company that have influence that aren't so sure they wanna' do it. And I said, Well, you know, where does that leave us? And kind of in conversation, we came around to that we could do another audition and try to increase the excitement of the other people that weren't really behind us right then. So we set up another audition, a second audition, and I guess if I'd have been able to read the writing on the wall better, I would've been able to tell that the odds weren't nearly as good as they had been the first time. The excitement level wasn't the same. The economy was not great, hadn't--nine months had gone by, the economy kind of sucked. And found out later it was Keith Holzman, Jack's brother, who was basically the lifelong accountant for Jack's record companies, that was feeling like we weren't gonna' be a good investment. But they decided that they'd let me, in Paul's words, pursue my star, and they would set up another audition. But it was completely on us. We weren't gonna' do it at the At My Place club, which actually, it wasn't the At My Place club anymore, it had changed hands and was some other club. So if we were gonna' do it, we would have to figure out where we were gonna' do it and make it convenient enough for those people that were important to be there. So we decided we would rent a rehearsal studio in Burbank 'cause we had to go to where they were. They weren't gonna' come down to San Diego. And so we tried to be creative, like, how are we gonna' do this, to really capture the attention of these guys and get them excited about this again? And so we decided we would like I have--all my furniture at my house is my parents' and my grandparents' furniture. We've never bought any furniture. One thing my mom left us was all the furniture. And it's like really some nice old chairs. I mean, really comfortable furniture. They don't make furniture like that anymore. And so I've got four or five nice upholstered chairs, and I've got a rocking chair. I've got some little side tables and some nice lamps. And so we say we'll just take everything outta' my living room. We'll just literally strip my house of all the furniture and lamps and accessories that make my living room cozy. And we'll rent a truck, and we'll truck that all up to Burbank to this large rehearsal studio that basically was just a big room with a sound system in it. And we would rent a bunch of chairs, and we would set up some folding seats. But then we'd also put all of the comfortable chairs and stuff in and with the side tables and the lamps and make it feel like a big living room. We would create this atmosphere. And a couple people, one guy from the park that worked at the park that I'd become friends with--he was a security guard there. He volunteered to go with us. And then another really close friend of mine that had a house up in Temecula came down, and he drove the truck up for me. And then they helped us set it all up. We got up there like at ten in the morning, we rented this place for the whole day, set up the the place. We had a sound guy come in from Sound Image that I knew that volunteered to help out. He came in to mix us. And we set up another audition. We got mason jars, small mason jars, like a couple cases of mason jars. And then we got a water cooler that you could draw water out of. And we had all these mason jars set up so that people could get fresh water. 'Cause we didn't really serve any refreshments, we didn't have enough money to do all that. And then we invited everybody we could that would actually make the trip up to Burbank to come see us, telling them that this is really important, we gotta' really make an impression, and it's better if there's an audience. And so we put on this whole big thing. When we left to go up there, it started raining. Just after we got stuff loaded in the truck, it started raining. So we unloaded everything in the rain, got it all in there. It rained the whole night. Everybody showed up, and Jack and his brother, Keith, came. They came in, we played a show. Seemed like it went good. They were very accepting and very cordial and friendly, and it all felt really good. And then they all left, and it was pouring rain, just a downpour. So we had to load all that stuff back up in the truck. This is my side story to the whole experience (laughter). Loaded stuff all up in the truck. Drove back down here. Got back down to my house at about probably about three in the morning. But we had to return the truck. So my friend Stuart drove the truck, and I drove my car down to Escondido, to the U-Haul place where we had rented the truck, or Ryder or whatever it was. I can't remember. And there was a place to park the truck and then a key drop, so we dropped the truck and dropped the key. I turned my car around to pull out. And the driveway's kinda' one of those driveways that kinda' goes down in the middle. There's sort of a drainage right in the middle. And so it's a little higher on the sides, you know? And so as I turned around, I realized I had a flat tire. And so it's now, it's four or four-thirty in the morning, been up all night, still in my clothes that I wore to perform in. And now I've gotta' lay down in the puddle in the driveway and change my tire (laughter). So the omens weren't good (laughter). Still raining, pouring rain. We drive back up to my house, and Stuart gets his car and goes home. And I guess I went to bed about, I dunno', five-thirty in the morning. Slept 'til about noon or one. Got up waiting to hear something. And about two or three o'clock, I got a call from Paul Rothchild, and he said, Yeah, we basically decided not to do it. And we were devastated. Because it'd been almost a year of this. And so a couple of weeks before the audition, that last audition, I was also told by Paul Rothchild that the company was only interested in my songs, that they thought Jim's songs were good, but they were really only interested in my songs. And so at the new audition, they wouldn't hear any of the songs we'd sent that were Jim's. They just wanted me to play my songs. So I had to deliver that message to Jim and Teresa about two weeks before this last audition. Of course, they were devastated with that news, but they hung in there 'cause basically what I was saying was, Look, that's not how I feel. Once we get the deal, we'll do what we want to do, but we've gotta' hang in there to get the deal. So that was kind of where I was coming from. I just, I wanted this thing to happen. I was 43 or 44 years old, so it was like 30 years ago, 35 years ago. And so they agreed to do the audition, all that stuff. We went and did it. And then, of course, we got that news. And that was sort of the end of Reluctant Angel. 'Cause they just like, Well, see you later, Joel (laughter). 00:46:36.000 --> 00:52:37.000 And I just kind of went into a really deep depression. The thing that kept me going was that they had said that when we had the first audition, they had told us that they didn't think that the drummer and the guitar player really, they didn't really care for what they were doing on the demos. They think we needed that, but they wanted me to find another guitar player 'cause they thought that, what they said--it was kind of cruel 'cause what they said about Davey--'cause Davey had had a couple of failed deals over the years. And they just said he's kind of considered to be used goods. This is how they talk about people in the music business that don't become really successful. Then if they've had a couple of record deals and they've never become successful, even if their music's really good, then they're considered used goods. It's sad. It's not very nice. We never told him that, but we did get a different guitar player, who did the second audition with us. And he was a guy that I had met in high school. He was a couple years younger than me, a fabulous guitar player. And when I was in high school, we had these hootenannies, you know, and everything was acoustic folk music. And he was in a different folk group. He was the, actually the younger brother of a classmate that I knew that was a year ahead of me. And he was a couple years behind me. So when I was in high school, he wasn't quite there yet. And then my junior year, he was a freshman. And we never played music together back then, but I recognized him as a really good guitar player. So then, later, after we got outta' school, I did a couple of demos at a couple of different studios. And I brought him to play guitar on some of those. And that was sort of the extent of our relationship. I actually knew his family because his family and my family had been friends, local friends in the town we grew up in, Covina, California. And his dad, they had a Quaker background. And so when I applied for my conscientious objector (CO) status, he was my counselor, and he was kind of the guy, who I worked with to make sure that, to try to make sure that I would have the copacetic answers for the questions that the draft board was gonna' probably ask me. And I think I covered that in my other interview. They turned me down, so I wasn't a CO. So I got Carl Johnson to come play with me, and he did that second audition with us. And then after the whole thing fell apart, turns out Carl had stopped playing music when he'd gone to college, and he'd become like a, what do you call it? Not really a psychologist, but a psychiatric counselor, like a marriage counselor, relationship counselor. And that was what he was doing for a living when I contacted him to bring him in as the new guitar player. He had been kicking himself for about three years because he wanted to get back into music. And every time he'd think about it, he'd sort of make a commitment that he was gonna' do it and then never did it. So when I called him, it pulled him back into music. So he was really excited 'cause it gave him an excuse, and he was able to sort of justify it with his job. And he was still a really great guitar player. So we started playing together as a duo after Reluctant Angel broke up. And I'm still working at the Wild Animal Park during all of this. So we're playing these little coffee house shows here and there. Any place we could play, all the way up to Ventura--from San Diego up to Ventura--any coffee house, Riverside County. We're just driving everywhere and playing for like nickels and dimes. Which I think anybody that's dedicated to the music and their art in that way, I think would do that because it just, it's not about the money, it's really not. It's just about doing something you really feel a calling and a love to do. And so, um, we were playing these little coffee houses and there was a coffee house that popped up in Poway, and you've probably heard of it 'cause it's had a few different incarnations but Java Joe's, And Joe Flammini, had this coffee house that he started. And there were a couple people that were starting out, young people that were playing acoustic music. And I heard about this one guy, John Katchur, who was playing there. He is still--I just played a show with him last weekend. We're still friends. And so we went down to check it out, and they had like open stage nights. And I started, called Carl and had him come with me. And we started playing those, and we met another guy down there who was at the time, a percussionist and was playing with different people. He's now pretty well known in San Diego. He's won a bunch of San Diego Music Awards and stuff. But he started playing with us, playing percussion with us. Jeff Berkley was his name. And then my daughter, who was kind of hitting the wall at NAU (Northern Arizona University) in Flagstaff, 'cause she wanted to be in the music program, and she already had a lot of experience because she'd taken private music lessons, Suzuki violin and piano lessons. But there were a lot of classes she was required to take that she had already just blasted through all that stuff, and they wouldn't let her, what do they call it when you crash the class or whatever? 00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:38.000 Audit. 00:52:38.000 --> 00:53:19.000 Audit the class, right? They wouldn't let her audit the classes. So she got very discouraged and her--actually, one of her instructors said, Hey, look, you know, you're a really good player. Your dad's got a band, you're flying in into California on weekends to play with him. You don't really need to get a degree in music to be valid. You're already a valid playing instrumental player. And so she kind of went with that, and she came back home and started playing in my band. So it was the four of us. 00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:20.000 And that was the Joel Rafael-- 00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:26.784 That's the Joel Rafael Band. Yep. 00:53:26.784 --> 00:53:33.000 And what year would you say that it was when that title came to fruition? 00:53:33.000 --> 01:06:34.000 Yeah, 1993. And we released our first album in 1994, and it was a self-titled, The Joel Rafael Band. And you've got that in your collection. Right then was when radio was going through a big transition, and there were some new genres that were established. Not Americana yet, but it was AAA and AA. So AA was--AAA was Adult Album Alternative. So it was album tracks. And then the other one was Adult Alternative? I don't know, I can't even remember what they stood for, but it was AA and AAA. And they were allowing a lot of independent music. I mean, it was getting into the mix. It wasn't just big labels. And just happened that in Carlsbad there was a station that was a AAA reporting station. So they report to the periodicals that list the charts for the different genres, or there was a rock or folk--or I don't know if there was a folk one--but there was rock and country, and I dunno' if they called it oldies or pop, whatever. So the AAA was a very open format and KKOS was the station in Carlsbad. And they were a very small station, not a huge transmitter or anything, but they were a reporting station. So they reported their playlist to Billboard and Record World and another periodical that was called the Gavin Report, which is no longer around. And so all of a sudden, we were showing up on playlists in some of these magazines, which caused other stations to pick up our record. And we'd sent our record, my daughter and myself, we formed a record promotion team. So she was still in school in--not Jamaica, but my other daughter, my younger daughter, Corrina. She was in school at Northern Arizona University, also. And was doing--she had a radio show at a radio station there. And we decided to, we got onto the whole idea and concept of how this worked with the record promotion and stuff. And there were certain call days when you could call the stations and talk to the program directors. And they would only take calls on like Tuesday and Wednesday between these hours. So we got our record to all of those stations that were reporting stations for AAA. And I think there were, there were probably about 70 stations, and pretty soon we were getting played on about 30 of them. But mainly due to the fact that on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, when those call days were supposed to happen, she would call--we would split up the list of the 70 stations, and she would call--over two days--she would call 35 of them, and I would call 35 of them from my office at the Wild Animal Park (laughter). Which was probably not allowed. But there were so many calls being made from the Zoological Society, long distance calls. It was minimal. So I mean, I had a lot of time when I was really busy in the job that I had there, and I had other times I just wasn't so busy. We didn't have any shoots or any people coming in for a story. I was basically just doing stuff in my office. And I'd slip in these calls to promote my record. And not with my name, though. I made up--I don't remember what the name was--but I made up a name. I'm so-and-so record promoter for this small label, Reluctant Angel Records. And the group, Reluctant Angel--no, it wasn't Reluctant--it was Joel Rafael Band at that point. And we managed to get our record on 30 or 35 stations. The irony of the situation was that no one could get our record. We didn't have distribution, so they could hear it on the radio, but they couldn't find it anywhere. It wasn't in any stores or anything, you know? We were developing mailing lists and just trying to figure out different ways to get it out there. And playing every gig we could play, every coffee house, every club gig we could get. Just before the band formed, just backing up a little bit, Carl's wife said, Hey, there's gonna' be a contest. They're having a big festival at UCLA (University of California Los Angeles). This was in '93. So it was just before, the year before our record came out. And I hadn't formed the band yet, but Carl and I were playing as a duo after Reluctant Angel had fallen apart. And so she said, Yeah, they're having a contest at this club called Highland Grounds in Hollywood. Over two days, they're gonna' have people come in and play two songs each after they screen--they're gonna' screen the demos, and then they're gonna' pick--I forget how many people, I think 20 people. And then they're gonna' over two days, they're gonna' have those people each come in and play two songs each. And then a panel of judges--I think there were three or four judges--would determine two winners. And then those winners would be the opening acts on Saturday and Sunday for the Troubadours of Folk Festival at UCLA. I can't think--Drake Stadium is where they had it, which is their big football field. And it was being produced by this guy, who had been a really big concert promoter in the seventies and eighties named Jim Rissmiller. He'd had a group called Wolf and Rissmiller, which is a big concert promoter back in the day. And so I met this guy, Jim Rissmiller, because I won the contest. Carl and I went, and we won the contest. I actually knew I was gonna' win before they announced the winners, because there's a show that was long established in Los Angeles called Folk Scene, and it airs on KPFK, and it started in 1971. So it's still running. It's a syndicated folk interview show, and they interview national touring folk acts--the top people basically--on that show when they have new records coming out and stuff. And I had met them years ago because when I discovered the program in the seventies I went up there. I never got on the show back then because I wasn't good enough (laughter). But I did meet Howard and Roz Larman, who put the show on and got to know them. And they were the kind of people that kept track of who was doing what in music, in folk music. And so they'd kind of followed me over the years. And so when this contest came down, they were two of the judges. And the other two judges were the people I mentioned in my interview last time, Len Chandler and John Braheny, who ran the Alternative Chorus Songwriter Showcase, who 15 years previous had spotlighted my songs, so they knew who I was. So all of a sudden, we show up on this show at Highland Grounds on one of the nights and play two songs. And then somewhere between when they announced the winners, I guess I--I don't remember why I was talking to Roz Larman, but for some reason I was on the phone with Roz Larman, and she said, Well, you know you're gonna' win, don't you? And I said, Well, no, I don't know that. And she said, Well, believe me, take it from me. You're gonna' win. And I said, Well, how can you say that? They haven't announced the winners yet. And she says, Well I'm one of the judges. I said, Yeah. And she says, And I know all of the acts in Los Angeles. She said, And I'm just telling you, you're gonna' win. And, you know, that was pretty cool for her to say that. Those are the kind of people that, people like that, that have come along that that will tell you in honesty. They're not just blowing hot smoke, but they'll tell you in honesty what they think. They'll tell you if they think it's bad, and they'll tell you if they think it's good. And I've had people tell me both. People you can trust to tell you the truth. And that can be really valuable especially if they're telling you, giving you constructive criticism. 'Cause we don't see ourselves the way other people see us. And so there's a bit of calculation that goes into something like that when you're presenting something. You wanna' get it right. And so we did, we won that contest. And so we opened that show at Troubadours of Folk Festival. And, of course, this was after that whole deal had fallen through and everything. And this is kind of a cool thing. So we were on at eleven o'clock in the morning, like the whole thing's gonna' go all way into the night and then into the next day. And we were on first at eleven in the morning, as people are still kind of coming into the stadium. So at ten o'clock in the morning, they had us go up and line check, just make sure everything was--and the lighting grid wasn't even up yet. It was like down here, you know? 'Cause they hadn't even pulled it up yet, and it was raining. And it was a rainy morning. And so I'm up there, and we're just checking out the sound system. I just feel somebody tapping me on the shoulder, and I look, and it's Paul Rothchild. And he had come because he had actually produced some of the acts that were on the show--Peter, Paul and Mary, and Judy Collins. And I mean, that show had everybody on it. You know, John Prine, Tom Petty, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Bonnie Rait, Joni Mitchell made her comeback at that show. She hadn't played in like, I don't know, seven years or something like that. And it was crazy just all the stars from the folk world that were there. And that just really warmed my heart. I said, Paul, what are you doing here? He said, I came to see you (laughter). So that was really cool. And then he introduced me to Peter, Paul and Mary that day and to a bunch of people, which was really, really great. And one of the people he introduced me to was Peter Yarrow. And told me about--that he's a really good songwriter and this and that. And Peter says. Well, do you know about the Kerrville Folk Festival? And I go, No. And he goes, Well, the Kerrville Festival, it's in Kerrville, Texas, and that's the real songwriter festival. He says, You've gotta' come to that. Well, I kind of filed it. And then Paul Rothchild took me aside--and I can put this in my biography, I don't care. 'Cause most of these people aren't even alive anymore. But, Paul, I said, Wow, thank you for introducing me to them, to Peter, Paul and Mary. Me and my wife grew up on them. We went to see them when we were in high school on dates. And he says, Yeah, yeah, they're great people. He said, But don't ever give them America Come Home. It's one of my songs. And it was like one of the songs that Paul really liked. And I said, Really? He says, Yeah, if they ever ask you for it, don't ever give it to 'em. And I said, Why? He says, Because they don't sell 12 records (laughter). That's the ways people talk. I go, Oh, well, okay. You know, so I filed that. 'Cause that's all gonna' be relevant later (laughter). So we played that show. Let's see. And then we found our way to Java Joe's, and we formed the Joel Rafael Band. So, I'm already there. We recorded our first record. We got it on the radio. Let's see. 01:06:34.000 --> 01:08:58.000 Okay, so while we were recording the first record, I'm at my office 'cause I'm still working at the Wild Animal Park. And this is 19--1994. Probably April of 1994. And I get a call at my office, and it's John Kachur, this other songwriter guy. Hey, do you know about the Kerrville Folk Festival? Well, this is a year-and-a-half later from when Peter Yarrow told me about that. And I go, Oh yeah, I think I've heard of that (laughter). I didn't remember. It sounds familiar. Yeah. Well, what's that? He goes, It's a festival in Texas. And he says, And they have a contest--they have the New Folk contest there. And every year, they pick six new folk artists out of 32 artists that are screened to perform there. And then they pick six artists that get to come back and perform the following week on the festival, and the deadline for submitting material--because I missed it the year before when I saw, when I met Peter, and that was the summer of '93. Well, now we're in the spring of '94. And he says, And the deadline is tomorrow to submit. And I just happened to have two songs on a cassette tape that we were recording for the album. One of 'em was America Come Home, and the other one was Solo Pasando, I think it was called. And so we--I packed those up with, I typed out the lyric sheets, stuck them in a FedEx envelope and then ran down to FedEx right after work, or I, maybe I left early that day. And FedEx was in, right? San Marcos, their main office. So I drove over there, and I sent that to the Kerrville Folk Festival. Just before the deadline. And I got picked. And so in May of 94, I went to Kerrville to compete with the New Folk performers. 01:08:58.000 --> 01:09:01.000 And was this with the band or just you? 01:09:01.000 --> 01:17:38.000 No, what, what I did is--well wait a minute. No, it was with the band. So what I did is, my daughter was coming from Northern Arizona University to play with us on weekends. She was still going to school because this was early in the incarnation of the Joel Rafael Band. And when I got the invite, I decided, yeah, I'm gonna' take my band. So I took Jeff, and I took Carl, put it on a credit card, we booked our flights, flew out there. They gave us camping, but we stayed in a hotel 'cause I wasn't gonna' try to camp and play. I was already in my mid-forties at that point, going on 50. I just didn't want to camp (laughter). And so we got there, we went through the competition, and then on Sunday, just before the main show, they announced the winners. And we were sure we won. We just felt so strong about it, the three of us. And they started calling the names--five, six. Oh, that's it. Oh. Oh, we didn't win (laughter). So we were a New Folk finalist, but we didn't win. So that was disappointing and expensive. So we came back home, and we just kept playing as a band. My daughter--then she came--was home. And so then it was the four of us all the time. And then, the next year came around, and we were recording our second album. It wasn't done yet, but I just decided, well, I'm gonna' go ahead and--if you don't win, you can enter again. So I sent two more songs to Kerrville, and I got picked again (laughter). So '95 we went back. And this time I took my daughter. I left my band. I left the Carl and Jeff, and I took my daughter, Jamaica. And the two of us went and that was '95. And we played. And I just really had my emotions in check. It was like, that was really pretty hard last year to go through all that--come here, do this, so far from home. And then--'cause we hadn't been traveling that much yet. And then to play and feel really good about your performance and then not make the cut. It was, it was disappointing. And so I just, in preparing Jamaica for it, I said, look, you know, there's like 32 people we're competing with here over the weekend. And there's a lot of really good songwriters. It's all about songwriting, and people coming from New England and from the South and from Canada and just all over the place. And we, we're from California. And so we're waiting the night--on Sunday when they're announcing the winners. And they announced the first winner, and, I'm just thinking, I'm just gonna' keep my emotions in check 'cause there's a real good chance we're not gonna' get picked. And they announce the second person, and it's us. So we go up there. We had gone around to, in '94, we had gone around to some of the campfires 'cause after the show, they have the--it's a big ranch. It's like a maybe 30-acre ranch. And so after the show, which is in this one area of the ranch, they have these camping areas, and people form these campfires. And they--it's been going on for so long that they have names. You know, there's Camp Cuisine, and there's Camp Stupid, and there's Camp--they have all these funny names for these camps. And so the first year when we were finals, me and Jeff and Carl went down, and kind of nobody would really let us in the circles. It was very kind of clique-ish. And so, I walk up on the stage--me and Jamaica walk up there--and I'm standing next to this guy, Tim Bayes. He's from Nashville, and he's a songwriter. He was the first guy they called. And I had met him earlier already and real nice guy. And he just looks over at me and he says, Now see if they'll let you in the campfires when you go down there. It was pretty cool. And it was like recognition, you know? And so we went down and got to play in the campfires. And that was a really, a real good kickoff for us. We got a couple more festivals after that in Texas. Rod Kennedy, who was the guy that had established the Kerrville Folk Festival and was still running it then, he's passed away now. And they've had a couple more directors since then. But we became kind of like his pets. He just loved our band. And so we played, I guess it was the 25th anniversary show. And then they have a summer show and then they have one in the fall called Wine and Music, Kerrville Wine and Music, at the same place. Smaller festival. And so he had us on the Wine and Music that year. And then the next year, we were on the main festival again. And then we weren't on Wine and Music, but the next year, we were on Wine and Music. For like about four years, just every year he had us on one or both of the festivals. And so Kerrville kind of became, that became kind of our spot. And you, it's like just being accepted in Texas as a songwriter, it's kind of kind of weird, but it was great. And so that really was a big stepping stone, that Kerrville Folk Festival 'cause it's kind of a nationally known thing. And you can kind of use that to parlay onto other things--winner, New Folk winner at the Kerrville Folk Festival. I mean, it's not such a big deal to me anymore, but it was a really big deal then. And it was--allowed me to get some other engagements, open up some other doors. So we played everywhere. We played Rocky Folks Festival in Colorado, and we played the South Florida Folk Festival, and we played the Kerrville Folk Festivals. And we played shows in Minnesota, and we were just going everywhere. (This interview has been edited at the request of the narrator.) NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> video 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23.xml RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview September 23rd, 2025. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-09-23 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-09-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part two interview, Rafael discusses the evolution of his musical career and the formation of The Joel Rafael Band. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States San Diego Wild Animal Park Folk festivals California condor — Conservation — United States Record labels Folk music — United States — The Joel Rafael Band Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) West (U.S.) Santa Monica (Calif.) Burbank (Calif.) Poway (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Kerrville (Texas) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. community history Art and artists Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2d4dd7cf7eecc1bdece894a77ead172d.pdf d270957793b0b26203436ee25f17f367 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview transcript, October 21, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part three interview, Rafael discusses the activities and dissolution of the Joel Rafael Band and his twenty-seven years performing at the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-10-21 Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States Folk music Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967 Folk music — United States — The Joel Rafael Band Folk music festivals—United States Music festivals—Oklahoma Woody Guthrie Folk Festival Baez, Joan, 1941– Communism—United States United States Merchant Marine Lynching—United States Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Salinas (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Austin (Tex.) Santa Monica (Calif.) Okemah (Okla.) Boley (Okla.) New York (N.Y.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-10-21_transcript Art and artists Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joel Rafael OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025_10_21.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Woody Guthrie OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Rafael Joel. Interview, October 21, 2025. SC027-088 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Woody Guthrie Joan Baez Joel Rafael Band Woody Guthrie Folk Festival Okemah, Oklahoma Laura Nelson Joel Rafael Jennifer Fabbi moving image RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025_10_21.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b2892396c100240bc8d1a92ba1e46a1c.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction 0 108 Highlights of the Joel Rafael Band Rafael highlights two activities of the Joel Rafael Band including performing as the opening act for Joan Baez' tour of the southwest United States. Joan Baez ; Joel Rafael Band ; John Steinbeck ; The Grapes of Wrath ; Skirball Cultural Center ; Way Over Yonder in the Minor Key ; Salinas, California ; Los Angeles, California ; Woody Guthrie ; Jamaica Rafael ; Carl Johnson ; Hopper ; Austin, Texas ; Doc Martens 0 926 Dissolution of the Joel Rafael Band Rafael discusses the breakup of the Joel Rafael Band and reflects on the definition of success. Joel Rafael Band ; songwriters ; success 0 1125 Developing knowledge of Woody Guthrie Rafael speaks about his growing knowledge of Woody Guthrie's life and music and the various sources he used to gain that knowledge. Woody Guthrie ; Pete Seeger ; This Land Is Your Land ; Billy Bragg ; American communist movement ; Merchant Marines ; Bob Dylan ; Songs to Grow On ; Santa Monica, California ; Alan Lomax ; Will Geer ; Library of Congress recordings ; Nora Guthrie ; Dance a Little Longer 0 2270 The Woody Guthrie Folk Festival Rafael discusses the beginnings of the Woody Guthrie Free Folk Festival in Okemah, OK, and how he became involved with it. Rafael played the Festival twenty-seven times. Woody Guthrie Free Folk Festival ; Bound for Glory ; Okemah, Oklahoma ; Huntington's Disease ; Woody Guthrie: A Life ; Joe Klein 0 2914 The lynching of Laura Nelson Rafael tells the story of the lynching of Laura Nelson and her son in Okemah, OK. Woody Guthrie's song, Don't Kill My Baby and My Son, is based on this story. Joel searched for several years for the location of the lynching and finally found it. Laura Nelson ; lynching ; bridge ; Woody Guthrie ; Pretty Boy Floyd ; 1913 Massacre ; Hard-Hitting Songs for Hard-Hit People ; Don't Kill My Baby and My Son ; Ku Klux Klan ; Tulsa Race Riot A Report ; Boley, Oklahoma ; sharecroppers 0 4495 Woody Guthrie review show Rafael discusses his role in the Woody Guthrie review show, The Ribbon Highway, Endless Skyway. Jimmy LaFave ; New York City ; The Ribbon Highway, Endless Skyway ; narrator 0 Oral history Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part three interview, Rafael discusses the activities and dissolution of the Joel Rafael Band and his twenty-seven years performing at the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:21.984 Hello, this is Jennifer Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Joel Rafael for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History Program. Today is October 21, 2025. This interview is taking place at Joel Rafael's studio at his home in Escondido, California. Joel, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:21.984 --> 00:00:23.824 Of course. Thank you. 00:00:23.824 --> 00:00:38.274 So, at our last interview, we left off with the Joel Rafael Band. So could you tell me a little bit more about the band, what you were working on, and what happened with the dissolution of the band? 00:00:38.274 --> 00:14:19.763 Well, I just say that it's pretty difficult, I think, to keep any band or musical group together for an extended period of time unless there are things that happen that inspire people to want to keep going 'cause it's a lot of work. And so, I would say the duration of the Joel Rafael Band was just under ten years that we worked together, and we had some really interesting tours. We played a lot of festivals. Eventually--probably around turn of the century going into the first few years of the two thousands--people in the band, other members of the band besides myself started to develop some other interests and started to work towards some personal projects. And it just made it more difficult ultimately to keep the continuity of a group 'cause people were just off on their own, on their own projects. But there's a couple things that we did that I'd like to highlight before we sort of end the chapter on the Joel Rafael Band. And one of those things was in about 2002, somebody, the guy who was the director, and I can't remember his name right now, we can probably research that 'cause he's not the director anymore. But he was, at the time, the director of the Steinbeck Center in Salinas, California. And they were approaching the centennial year of John Steinbeck's birth. And so they were doing some special events and programs. And one of the things they were gonna' be doing is presenting The Grapes of Wrath, the Frank Galati adaptation for theater, of The Grapes of Wrath, as a radio play in Los Angeles at the Skirball Theater (Skirball Cultural Center), which is right next to the Getty Museum. And they have a beautiful theater there. And they asked me if I would--he had heard some of the Woody Guthrie tunes that I had recorded, even though my album, first album of Woody Guthrie Tunes wasn't out yet. He'd heard one of the songs, which was the Billy Bragg-Woody Guthrie co-write, Way Over Yonder in the Minor Key on, I think it's on Hopper is where he heard the song, which came out around 2000. And they really liked it and liked my approach to the Guthrie music. And they asked me if I would write original music for the centennial performance of The Grapes of Wrath at the Skirball by the L.A. Theater Works. And so, got together with the cast, which starred Shirley Knight, the late Shirley Knight. She was an amazing, amazing person. Just a sidebar, after she had passed away, I found out that another big influence on my art and my creativity, a guy named John Cooper--a painter that I met when I was living in Washington--he's probably like fourteen years older than me. And he's passed away now, too. But I was telling him about The Grapes of Wrath program. I was gonna' send him a copy of it. And I mentioned that Shirley Knight had starred it. And he told me that, Oh, she was my girlfriend when we were in college. So I thought that was kind of a good side note. But anyway, she was a wonderful person, wonderful to work with. And what we did is we did seven radio play performances of the play at the Skirball Theater. And they recorded the audio for all seven performances along with the music that we played throughout the performance. And then they took those seven performances and edited that into one performance that was then released with, in a program called The Theater's the Thing (the Play's the Thing), which is a syndicated radio program that the L.A. Theater Works puts on. They do a number of plays throughout the year, and then they present these radio plays that then air it on like PBS stations. That kind of thing. And so, we were really proud to do the music for that. That was basically myself, my daughter, Jamaica Rafael, and Carl Johnson, my guitar player. So it was the three of us that did those shows. And then the other really cool thing that we did with the Joel Rafael Band, right towards the end, was we had put out our first recording of all Woody Guthrie songs called Woodeye. And it's kind of an interesting story, so I'm gonna' go ahead and tell it. I had finished the album, and we'd had it pressed. It wasn't distributed. We just had like a thousand copies of this album, Woodeye, and Joan Baez was playing in San Diego at Humphreys. And so, we got a couple tickets to go to the show, my wife and I, and we went to the show, and I took a copy of Woodeye along just on the chance that I might be able to see Joan and give her a copy of my Woody Guthrie record. That didn't happen. But while we were sitting in the audience--and we were, had really good seats, we were like a third or fourth row--I was sitting next to a little girl. She was probably ten years old, maybe nine or ten years old, and her father was next to her. And somehow, I don't know how, we got onto the conversation, but I asked her at a certain point if she knew who Woody Guthrie was. And she did because she and her dad were Joan Baez fans. They had come down from Los Angeles to see Joan play. And so, when she made it clear that she knew who Woody Guthrie was, she's only nine years old, I thought, well, I'm just gonna' give her the CD. So I gave her the CD, and her and her dad listened to it on their way home. So the next day, I got a call from this guy, the father, his name's Larry Shapiro, and he called me up--got my number somehow 'cause I don't think it was on the record, but somehow, maybe my, my website was on the record, somehow he got my number. Maybe he wrote me an email. It's a long time ago now. So, he contacted me the next day and said that they'd listened to the recording on the way home, and that they loved the recording, and he wanted to know if it was distributed, and I told him no, it wasn't distributed, that we were self-distributed. So we were basically putting it in places on consignment, that kind of thing. And he said, Well, my best friend is the president of ADA record distribution, which is like ADA global (Worldwide). It's the biggest distributor, you know. And so, he said that he had a small label, and he would--it was like a boutique label called Nine Yards Records. And he said, We'd like to put your record out. So I put him in contact with my manager, and initially, before Inside Recordings put out my double set of Woody albums, Larry Shapiro and Nine Yards Records put out the initial release of Woodeye, the first album. And as part of that--I don't know how he did it--but somehow he arranged for us to be the opening act for Joan Baez, who was going out on a southwest tour of the U.S. So she was gonna' be playing like California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. And so, we ended up getting that opening act, and we had--our first show was at UCLA, and then from there we went to, I think it was like Scottsdale (Phoenix), and played the Celebrity Theater with Joan Baez. And then from there we went to New Mexico, and we played in Albuquerque and Santa Fe. And then we went from there to Austin and played Austin, Texas. So we rented a van, like a conversion van with a camper in it. And the four of us set off on tour, kind of tagging with Joan Baez. They were in their bus. And so, they had a bus driver and everything, and we were self-driven. But anyways, we followed them along on the tour. And that was probably about the biggest performances that the Joel Rafael Band did during the time that we were together as a group, was with Joan Baez. And a couple little anecdotes about Joan, 'cause I just think they're kind of fun and interesting because she's just a really interesting--kind of an enigma--but a very interesting person. First off, they always ask you when you go on tour what you'd like to have on your rider, which means when you get to the show, it's like, any kind of food or any kind of comfort you might want to have there. The promoter will ask you to submit a rider, which we did. But as an opening act, we never got anything that was on our rider. It's like we would get to the shows, to the venues, and there wouldn't be anything for us except the dressing room, you know? So right off the bat, Joan's management and Joan basically told us, Look, we have a really good rider. And when we get to the theater, there's always--not the meal, but a snack. Like, there'll usually be a tureen of soup, china dishes, cloth napkins, and silverware (laughter), and some snacks to eat before soundcheck. And they just wanted to let us know that we were completely welcome to their area when we got to the theater, knowing that anything on our rider was never gonna' be fulfilled (laughter). So they were very generous. She was very generous in that respect. I had a pair of shoes that I was wearing for that tour. They were Doc Martens, but they weren't the regular black Doc Martens, they were kind of like these special custom Doc Martens. They were like wingtips, and they were two colors. They were like red and green, sort of candy apple red and then sort of this Kelly green with a what do you call it? I'm trying to think what the name of those shoes are. Wingtip. So they had the wingtip designs on them, and Joan noticed them right away (laughter). And she said, I really like your shoes. She said, I'm really into shoes, and where did you get those? And I said, Oh, they're Doc Martens. And she said, I really like those. Well, then the next day I passed her backstage at the next theater, and she said, I love those shoes. I wear size seven- and-a-half (laughter). I don't know if I told you this story yet or not. Anyways, I made a note of it. Okay. Oh, cool. She wears size seven-and-a-half. Okay. And then the other thing about her is that every night, every show that we played--and I think we did five shows with her--when we were sound checking, she would show up at the monitor board over on the side of the stage. All of a sudden, we noticed Joan was standing there by the monitor guy listening to us play our songs. Well, I backtrack. She'd be in the theater for our sound checks, like the theater's empty, and all of a sudden, one person comes walking in the theater, and it's Joan Baez. And she sits down in the theater and listens to us play our songs during our sound check and then claps (laughter)--one person in the theater. So she made a made a point of letting us know how welcome we were and that she liked us, you know? Then when we would actually do our show, our opening act, our first and second song. We would look over, and Joan would be standing with the monitor guy at the monitor board listening to our first two songs. And then right after the first two songs, she would leave to go get ready for her show. But every night she came out and listened to our first two songs and would stand there and applaud for us from the side of the stage. So she was just really, really a treasure to work with, such an icon and an early influence of mine. So in a way, I've been fortunate, not just with Joan Baez, but I've been fortunate enough to meet some of my biggest influences and share the stage with some of my musical heroes. So when we got back from the tour, I went and I found a pair of those shoes for Joan Baez and I sent them to her-- 00:14:19.763 --> 00:14:20.458 Nice, nice. 00:14:20.458 --> 00:14:43.865 So that's my Joan Baez story. And then the other thing we did was the Steinbeck thing. Those are two really great things we did with the Joel Rafael Band. And that kind of ended our run was--right around 2003 were probably the very last shows that we played together. 00:14:43.865 --> 00:14:49.007 So, let me ask, your daughter, Jamaica, was part of the Joel Rafael Band-- 00:14:49.007 --> 00:14:51.065 She was-- 00:14:51.065 --> 00:14:56.000 --how was that to work with your daughter and for her to work with you during that time? 00:14:56.000 --> 00:18:27.000 Honestly, it was really rewarding, but really difficult. I don't think you can ever transcend the relationships--like you're the parent and she's the child. I mean, even though she's an adult--I'm not sure why that is. But we had a really good run as a band because she was a great player. Actually, everybody in my band--in that band--was, the three people playing with me were just all extremely excellent musicians, natural players that just had a sense about how to dress up a song. They're all songwriters. And that's probably part of the reason that eventually everybody went their own ways because they wanted to express their own art. They don't wanna' just be backing me up all the time. And I understand that even though it was a tough breakup, because we worked really hard at being successful, which, it's an elusive term. And success, I think, in general, can be elusive because it's hard to define. What is success? Is it financial? Is it notoriety or visibility? Or is it just the satisfaction with doing something--being able to pull off doing something that you want to do and that you love to do? And in my case, I'd say, all three of those came into play at one time or another. I think when you're younger, you have these visions of where you want to go with something that's artistic, like a band, or as a painter or an artist. Success is sort of synonymous with visibility or fame, but they're really, completely have nothing to do with each other. Success, I don't think should ever be measured by monetary success. That's just one aspect of what you could call success especially in the art world. So it was about a ten-year run, and we played a lot of great music. My daughter--we still play music together. We had a long break because of some complications in her life. But we still play music together, and we still have all the same issues we had when we were both younger due to our relationship with each other. But the music is great. And I think that it's a real reward to be able to be involved with any endeavor with your children if it could happen. Sometimes I think relationships make that more difficult. So I guess that's how I'd characterize it, is just to say that you can't really transcend relationships, but you can make really good art together. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:45.000 Thank you. So, moving to the kind of next topic is can you tell me more about your deep connection to Woody Guthrie and especially the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival that you've played at for twenty-seven years? 00:18:45.000 --> 00:24:44.000 Well, I knew quite a bit about Woody Guthrie before the Festival started. I might have covered this a little bit earlier, but one thing I've always said is that when I first started to play the guitar, a number of songs that came along or that I came across to play happened to have been written by a guy named Woody Guthrie. You know, you don't forget that name (laughter). It's just Woody Guthrie. It just sounds almost like a caricature or a cartoon character out of the past. People that are younger than me, like the people in my band, for instance, that were younger than me, when they thought about Woody Guthrie, they pictured him as some person out of distant history. But Woody Guthrie only lived to be fifty-five years old, and he died in 1967, which was the year I graduated from high school. So he was relevant and active during my lifetime, and when I was a kid. I think some of the younger folks that think of him as being a sort of a historical figure, part of that is because Pete Seeger made sure that every kid in the country learned This Land Is Your Land when they went to school (laughter). He went around to schools and did programs, and he made sure that everybody knew that song. And I can go up to almost anybody and ask them if they know who Woody Guthrie is. And usually they don't. But if I say, This Land Is Your Land, then they know that song. And then I can tell them, Well, Woody Guthrie wrote that song. But then what I always like to add to that is something that's the description that Billy Bragg uses. Billy Bragg from England, he's a musician from there. His description of Woody Guthrie is Woody's the guy who wrote This Land is Your Land. In the United States, he's the guy who wrote this Land is Your Land. In the rest of the world, he's the guy with a sign on his guitar that says, This machine kills fascists. And that's how the rest of the world knows Woody. He did two--what do you call it? Two deployments with the Merchant Marines, because when World War II started and the Allies joined--or I should say the U.S. joined the Allies to fight the fascist Nazis in Europe? At that time, there was an American Communist movement in the States that a lot of people were supportive of. It wasn't the communism of Russia or Stalin, but it was the communism in pure philosophy, or which is basically a communal sharing of resources in a country. It never turns out that way, as it turns out, in other countries. At least it hasn't. There was a movement at that time in the late thirties going into the early forties. It was an American communist movement, and a lot of the people in the folk movement and a lot of artists were involved with that movement because they saw it as maybe an antidote to the harsher sides or harsher parts of capitalism. So when the war started and America joined the Allies, a lot of these artists saw the writing on the wall that it wasn't gonna' play out to be supportive of communism anymore in America. But they didn't wanna' fight. They were basically pacifists in philosophy. And so, some of them became conscientious objectors. Others joined other areas of the service where they didn't have to fight but could be supportive of the U.S. and Allied efforts. And so, Woody joined the Merchant Marines, along with Cisco Houston and some other friends of his. And they were involved with helping transport troops and munitions to Europe. Woody Guthrie famously wrote the song, The Good Ship Reuben James (The Sinking of the Reuben James). And actually there's a story, an anecdotal story, about being on a ship transporting troops and weapons to Europe that was being hit by depth charges. And so the whole crew was down in the hull hiding out. And the crew--not the crew--but the troops were down in the hull hiding out. And the crew, of course, was still manning the ship. And at a certain point, Woody said--grabbed his guitar and his harmonica and started to head down into the hull. And his friend Cisco Houston said, Where are you going? And he said, I'm going down to play some songs for the troops. And they said they didn't wanna' go down there. That's the worst place to be when you're being hit with depth charges is in the hull of a ship. And so, the three of them (Woody, Cisco, and Jimmy Longhi) went down there and sang songs until the tragedy was over and calmed the troops down. And that was just kind of the way Woody was, you know? 00:24:44.000 --> 00:37:50.000 So I knew a few Woody Guthrie songs when I first started out. And then as I became a young adult, I became aware of the fact that Woody had been a big influence on, well, actually a lot of people, but Bob Dylan in particular. And I was pretty hugely into Bob Dylan at the time. And so, I decided to kind of go back a little further and see what was it about Woody that attracted Bob, you know? And so, I started to look for Woody Guthrie materials, and this was probably about 1973, 74, into the mid-seventies. And there wasn't much there to find. If you were lucky, you could find a copy of Bound for Glory at a used bookstore. But Woody's recordings were pretty much out of print. There were a couple things I did find. I found a collection of cowboy songs sung by Woody Guthrie, along with Cisco Houston singing harmonies. A real treasure. And then I also found Songs to Grow On, which was the songs that Woody and his wife, Marjorie, wrote for their kids. And they were unique as children's songs because--we had children's records 'cause I had young kids. But a lot of the children's music that we encountered, a lot of it was just kinda' silly, you know? And occasionally you'd find some songs that did, could really impart some educational values and some meaning within the lyrics to the kids that were young. And the thing that I loved about Woody Guthrie's children's songs were that they were about real stuff. About real things. About being angry, about playing with your toys, about washing your face and brushing your teeth, just sort of the practical life stuff was really covered in Woody Guthrie's children's songs. And so, we got copies of those on cassettes at a store we found up in Santa Monica that carried a lot of this kind of alternative stuff. And my kids grew up on those songs, listening to those songs in our car and singing along with those songs. So we sort of got educated about Woody's material together. Turns out that Woody wrote like over 3000 songs and only recorded about 80 tracks. So there's a lot of uncovered material there. A couple times I tried to put together programs about Woody Guthrie with the songs that I'd learned off the Cisco Houston album. I came across the Library of Congress tapes that were recorded by Alan Lomax. He was the son of John Lomax. And they were both musical, I guess you'd say they were ethnomusicologists. But they uncovered a lot of music from the deep South, sung by Black people, slave songs, field songs. And these were basically unknown artists that they would find, and they would go to where these artists lived and make field recordings of their songs and their music so they could provide a historical reference for some of this music that had influenced so much other music that maybe we had heard of. But we hadn't heard of the stuff that had influenced this music. And so the Lomaxes were real musical historians. I think that Woody was probably introduced to the Lomaxes by Will Geer, the actor. And I don't know if you know who Will Geer was. Okay, well, not by name, but if you've ever seen the show, the Waltons, Will Geer was the grandpa on the Waltons. Okay. And he was one of Woody Guthrie's best friends. You didn't see Will Geer in a lot of movies or a lot of shows until The Waltons because he was blacklisted during the McCarthy Era, during the McCarthy hearings. So his career was pretty much put on hold. And he was a Broadway actor. He was the star of the Broadway show, Tobacco Road. And I guess probably it was in the thirties or forties. And when Woody got to New York, that's one of the people he met was Will Geer. And Will Geer, as far as I can tell from what I've read, introduced Woody to many, if not almost all of the I important people that Woody met, like the Seegers, the Lomaxes. I'm not sure who all, but I mean, when Woody got to New York, he was just like this folk singer from Oklahoma. And he kind of got taken under wing by Pete Seeger and Will Geer and put on some programs where people realized the folk movement was pretty vital at that time in the forties. But a lot of it were performers that had learned songs of the people that had kind of created this music. And when Woody got to New York he was perceived and seen as an authentic. He had actually lived in Oklahoma and through the Dust Bowl and traveled across the country with the Dust Bowl migration and sang the songs of the people. And so, he was like, wow. When he got to New York, people were just like, Wow, this guy's really special. And so, he recorded a number of songs with Moe (Moses) Asch, who had a recording studio and was recording folk musicians in New York. And then he recorded the Library of Congress interviews with Alan Lomax. And I think that the, it might be like two or three hours of interviews, just Woody and a guitar, with Alan Lomax asking him questions about growing up in Oklahoma and about the Dust Bowl migration, the country life that he led, his traveling across the country and different people he met. And that's all preserved in the Library of Congress. Those are just wonderful recordings. If you ever get a chance to hear those. They're just called the Library of Congress Recordings by Woody Guthrie and Alan Lomax. So when I found those recordings, I learned a lot about Woody Guthrie and him telling his own story, and at one point, I decided, well, I could, I know a lot of these songs, and I'm learning some other ones from these Library of Congress recordings and then Woody talking about his life and songs. I was a pretty good, I was a quick study for copying musicians, emulating music I had heard. And I think that most artists go through that process. They emulate what they love, and eventually what they're emulating, the distillation of all of the things they're emulating becomes another more unique original thing that becomes your own. I've always told artists that have asked me--I've used the "fake it 'til you make it" method. You know, you start copying things you like because you decide you want to do this. And if you've got an knack for it, you can keep going. And then what happens? It's almost like a learning to skate, like learning to ice skate, you know, you're really wobbly and you're falling down all the time, but then all of a sudden one day you're just doing it, you know, wow, I'm skating, you know? Well, with the musical influences, it's sort of like that. That's kind of the analogy I make for that, because all of a sudden, you're doing it on your own. You don't sound like somebody else anymore. But you're still using all those resources that you've learned, but it's been distilled into your own unique voice. I think that that's at least one road to becoming an artist. And when people ask me, that's what I always tell 'em. For me, it was the "fake it 'til you make it" method. So at one point, I had these songs and I was listening to these interviews, and I thought, well, I could put together a program and take it around to my kids' elementary school or middle school and do an educational program about the Dust Bowl, about Woody Guthrie and about the folk music of that era. And so, I decided to work on some of that. And I started to put together some ideas and make a list of songs and figure out which of the interview pieces I was gonna' try to learn so that I could do this program, and I wanted endorsement for it. And I knew that Harold Leventhal was Woody Guthrie's manager, was looking after his estate. Woody had died in '67, this was probably like in the seventies, mid-seventies to late seventies. So I found a number for Harold Leventhal in New York City. He was listed, and I called him up and he answered the phone. And I expressed my idea about how I wanted to do this Woody Guthrie program. He heard me out, and then he said, You cannot do this. You cannot even play any Woody Guthrie songs publicly because we are in the process of doing a Woody Guthrie program right now called Woody Guthrie's American Song--it was a play they had put together. I guess probably in the seventies, late seventies. And he said all of those songs and all of those interviews and recordings are all spoken for and protected, and you can't use any of it, so just forget it (laughter). And I thought like, wow, man, that wasn't very nice. I got off the phone with him, and he pretty much gave me a nope (laughter). And so, I let that idea kinda' slide, and I kind of thought, well, Harold Leventhal, he's kind of an edgy guy. So many years later after I started playing on the Woody Guthrie Festival, and I'll backtrack onto that a little bit, but I was given the first Woody Guthrie lyric by Nora Guthrie, Woody's daughter. A song called, Dance a Little Longer. And we put it to music, and it was on the first collection of Woody Guthrie songs. And when Harold Leventhal heard it, it turns out he loved it. Now he didn't connect that I was the same person that had called him twenty years earlier to ask permission to do this program. And it had been turned down. And so, turned out I was on my way home from the Woody Guthrie Festival the year that I had finished that first album. And all of a sudden, my cell phone rang, and I answered it, and it was Harold Leventhal, and he'd gotten my number. He called my manager and gotten my number, and he called me just to tell me how thrilled he was with the song Dance a Little Longer, and that he was thanking me for keeping Woody's legacy alive. And I just always thought it was really ironic. He never knew that I was the person who had called him that he had so harshly turned down twenty years earlier. And here now he was calling me and thanking me for writing music to a set of Woody Guthrie lyrics. So it was kind of cathartic. And kind of full circle in a way. 00:37:50.000 --> 00:48:34.014 But anyways, the Woody Guthrie Festival started in 1998. And I had a lot of background in Woody at that point. I had learned a lot of Woody Guthrie songs on my own. I had found my used copy of Bound for Glory and read it. And right around that time, there were a couple other books that came out that were biographical, biographies of Woody. They call Bound for Glory an autobiography, but it's really not. It's autobiographical, for sure. But he took a lot of license, and as I understand it, the original text of that book was like maybe 700 pages and just completely outta' chronology. And it took a really good editor, and I should find out the names, so I can tell you the name of the woman that did the editing for Bound for Glory, but she was able to take all of Woody's writings at that time and organize them and edit them into a novel that is autobiographical that Woody wrote. It's probably, well, it was on the bestseller list for a time. And I think it probably was an influence of writers like Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady, Gary Snyder, some of those beat writers were probably influenced by Woody's writing because Kerouac's book, On the Road is not dissimilar from Bound for Glory in its cadence. And it's just the way the story's told, traveling around the country, hitchhiking, riding freight trains, and stuff. So I guess it was probably the end of 1997, maybe early 1998, I got a postcard from another artist, whose mailing list I was on--a guy named Ray Wylie Hubbard, Oklahoma, Texas guy. And he had actually written one hit song. He's a really great songwriter, but the one hit song that made it was called, Up Against the Wall, Redneck Mother (laughter). I don't know if you remember that title (laughter), but it was not what he usually wrote, but that's the song that made it. Anyways, so I had met Ray Wylie Hubbard, and I was on his mailing list, and I got this postcard listing his shows and listed in July, he was gonna' be playing the first annual Woody Guthrie Free Folk Festival in Okemah, Oklahoma, Woody's hometown. And I knew the history--that town, Woody Guthrie's hometown, had mixed feelings about Woody. Historically, half the town had hated Woody because of his, what they perceived as his political views. They thought he was a communist. They thought he was a leftist. And Okemah, Oklahoma, if you look on a map, is pretty much dead center in the middle of the United States, and it's about 70 miles east of Oklahoma City--a very small town. I think it's still population about three or four thousand. And they had decided to do this festival. They had tried to do things for Woody previously in the town, but it never panned out. You know, something had always gone wrong or just never happened. But in the nineties, there was actually a woman and her husband that we met, became really good friends with once the festival got going, Sharon and Dee Jones. That were residents of Okemah, Oklahoma. And Sharon Jones had a cousin from San Francisco, and they got together in Oklahoma, probably in, I don't know, late nineties for a family reunion. And the liberal cousin from San Francisco said to Sharon, You live in Okemah, Oklahoma, and this town doesn't do anything for Woody Guthrie. That's shameful. You know, just kinda' shamed her about it (laughter). And so, she decided, we need to do something for Woody Guthrie. And so, turns out Woody's little sister lived right nearby in a town called Seminole. And so, Sharon had met her before 'cause Mary Jo Edgmon Guthrie, Woody's little sister, had spent a lot of her adult life going around to school classrooms to tell the kids about her brother, Woody Guthrie, who wrote, This Land Is Your Land. You know, sort of like Pete Seeger had done, but in her way. Telling her story about her big brother. And so, they knew of her. And so, they (phone interruption). Sorry about that. Just gotta' get rid of this call. So they knew about her, and so they contacted her and presented the idea of doing a Woody Guthrie Festival. And she said, Well, Woody's son, my nephew, is gonna' be coming through town in a couple months. I'm not sure exactly whether it was a couple months or sooner. Let's get together and tell him about your idea and see what he thinks. So they got together, and this is the story Sharon and Dee told me, so it's secondhand, but this is as I heard it. They got together with Mary Jo and Arlo Guthrie and Sharon and Dee and had a dinner and presented this idea of this Woody Guthrie festival. And Arlo said, Well, this town has never been that appreciative of my dad. So I don't know how successful something like this would be, but what I would suggest is that if we do it, we make it free. So we could pay artist expenses to get there, but I think it would be best if no artist was paid to play on the festival except for expenses to get there. And if no one had to pay to go see the festival. So we could call it the Woody Guthrie Free Folk Festival. So for the first several years, that was the name of the festival, and it was free. They charged for parking, like $5 a car. So they were able to raise some money that way. And then on Wednesday night, the day before the festival started, the night before the festival started, they had a show in the Crystal Theatre in the town, which is an old theater that was there when Woody was a kid. And he used to go to the movies there. And his mom used to go to the movies there with Mary Jo when she was a baby. In fact, there's a story that one time, because she had Huntington's Disease, which is the disease that Woody died of, when she was showing signs of that, she would just go to the theater and just sit in the theater for hours and watch the movies. And one time she was in the theater, and Mary Jo, who was about three years old, wandered out of the theater into the middle of the street. And somebody picked her up saying, who's got a kid on the loose? So that's when they knew that Nora (Belle) Guthrie, Woody's mom and Mary Jo's mom, was in the throes of Huntington's disease. So they established this festival, and it was 1998. And I heard about it on this postcard that I got from Ray Wylie Hubbard. And I thought, man, it's gonna' be just in like a month or two. It wasn't too far away. And so, I know how these things are booked, and you have to book your shows a good six months in advance, sometimes even a year in advance, to get on some of these venues. And I really thought, man, I should be on this festival 'cause I've been looking for Woody Guthrie for a number of years now and kind of putting that into my performance portfolio and learning his songs and taking ideas from the songs and incorporating them into my own writing. And so, I called my manager and told (her) about this festival and said I'd really like to try to get on this maybe next year, and realizing I probably couldn't get on it in 1998. And so she said, you know what? I just got a letter from the people putting on the festival asking for a quote from one of our other artists, a more famous artist that they managed. And she said, So I can get the quote for them and then send the quote to them and send some of your material and pitch you for the festival. So she did that. And I was just so fortunate to get on that festival, even though it was only a couple months away. So I was one of the opening acts for that festival. I went there by myself the first year. I had just read Joe Klein's book, Woody Guthrie: A Life, by Joe Klein. And it's a voluminous book about Woody Guthrie's life. It doesn't pull any punches. And I just read that book. And there were some things that happened in that book that you don't hear about, just hadn't heard about it. They weren't in Bound for Glory or any other things I'd heard about Woody Guthrie. 00:48:34.014 --> 01:11:06.385 One of the things that I had read about in that book was a lynching that had happened in the town of Okemah, Oklahoma, of a woman named Laura Nelson. And also of her son, her teenage son. Her and her son were lynched from a bridge about six miles outside of town in 1911. Her husband had been accused of stealing a sheep from a white farmer. And so, the sheriff and a deputy went out to arrest the husband, Lawrence Nelson, I believe was his name. And there was a standoff. And during the standoff, their son, who I think was about 14, had grabbed a shotgun and was hiding under the stairs of the house and shot the sheriff and hit him in the leg. And he bled to death in the yard begging for water, which the family wouldn't bring him. And so then the deputies left, they formed a posse and came back out and arrested the whole family. And took them to Okemah, placed the husband in the jail, and then right across the alley from the jail in another building that also had barred windows, they held Laura Nelson and her son and her baby. She had an infant. So the husband in one cell, and then Laura Nelson, the son, and the baby in another building right across the alley waiting for the circuit judge to come through so they could have a trial for the murder of the sheriff and for the lost or the stolen sheep. That didn't happen because before the circuit judge came, a mob was formed, and they broke into the building that had Lauren Nelson and her son and the baby, and they took them about six miles out of town to a bridge and lynched them from that bridge. There's a photograph of that. 'Cause these photographs of lynchings at that time were popular in the South, and they were sold as postcards in in like drugstores. It'd be like these postcards of these various lynchings that had happened. And so, this is one of the photographs from that series of photos is the picture of Laura Nelson hanging and then her son hanging next to her. The baby was left on the shore to die. And anecdotally it's told that that a family adopted the baby. And there's different stories. Some say it was a Black family that picked the baby up. Others say it was a white family that took the baby in, and then later she was actually a privileged Black that could, that had privileges in town that other Blacks didn't have. (Phone buzzes) Lets turn this off. I'm getting a lot of spam calls for some reason today. So I had read this in this Joe Klein book, and I had been invited to come play the festival, which was like a month or two off. And I thought, well, I'm gonna' have to bring a Woody Guthrie song or some Woody Guthrie songs with me. I mean, it just seemed like that's what you had to do. If you're gonna' be on the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival. And I knew a lot of Woody Guthrie songs, but a lot of them were the popular songs, like This Land Is Your Land. This Train (This Train is Bound for Glory), I Ain't Got No Home (I Ain't Got No Home in This World Anymore), 1913 Massacre--maybe not one of the most well-known ones. But I had learned a couple of songs in the early seventies from Jack Elliot, Ramblin' Jack Elliot, from some of his recordings and then seeing him play live when I was about 20, 24 years old. I was on a trip to Colorado and saw Jack Elliot live and got to meet him and John Prine. And John Prine was just starting out. He wasn't famous yet (laughter). So I'd learned these couple of songs from Jack Elliott. I'd learned Pretty Boy Floyd, and I'd learned 1913 Massacre, which--two of Woody's most powerful songs. But I knew that someone would probably be doing those songs, you know? Because there's a lot of people already on the festival. I didn't know most of 'em. I knew a handful of them from other festivals I'd been on and maybe we'd been on shows together, that kind of thing. And so, I had a book called Hard Hitting Songs for Hard-hit People, and it was a compilation book of songs that had been compiled by Alan Lomax and his father, John Lomax, folk music historians. And then the musical notes, or the musical melody line had been transposed from the recordings by Pete Seeger. So he had actually done the musical notation. And then every song in the book--and there's probably a couple hundred songs in the book--but every song in the book had an introduction, just telling about the song, where it came from and what was important about it. And those were all written by Woody Guthrie. Now he only had maybe four songs in the book that he had written, but he did the notes for all the songs. So I was looking for the songs that he'd specifically written, and I found them, there were like four or five songs, and a couple of 'em were songs that were the popular songs that people knew. But there was this one song in there called Don't Kill My Baby and My Son. And it was about the lynching of Laura Nelson just outside the town of Okemah, Oklahoma, which is Woody's hometown. The lynching happened in 1911. Woody was born in 1912. He didn't write the song until about 1940. So it happened before he was born, a year before he was born. He must have heard talk about it, like for his whole childhood. It was a very traumatic event. I mean, even for the people that did it. It wasn't like a party. It was a very horrible, noteworthy event that had happened in that town in 1911. Wasn't soon forgotten. So I know he heard about it. And there were probably other lynchings because when I actually looked for the location there, one person who I had asked about it that was from there, said, Oh, you mean the bridge where they hung the Blacks? Plural. So I think there was more than one lynching there, but the one that was documented was the lynching of Laura Nelson. So I found this song, Don't Kill My Baby and My Son, in the book. And it was notated and had the words. And so, I set about learning it, and I wasn't thinking, you're going to Oklahoma to the town where this happened. Yeah, it was a hundred years earlier almost. But it was still a very intense thing that had been. Most of the people that lived in that town didn't know about it. It had been buried by the time it was like 1998. But I just naively took this song. This is a song that nobody's gonna' do (laughter). Yeah. That's for sure. So I got there, and I told a couple people about it, that this was the song I was gonna' play, the Woody song I brought. Who was it I told--was it Ray Wylie Hubbard? I'm gonna' have to think on that for a second, because I've messed that story up a couple times and got it with the wrong person. But I told somebody, one of the artists at the show, and it will probably come to me here, but I told one of the artists at the show about the song and played it for him. And he said, You're gonna play that here? (Laughter). And he was from that area. And I said, Well, yeah, I was thinking about it. He said, Okay. He said, I'll have the car running out back just in case you have to leave really quick (laughter). So it did shock people. I sang the song, and it shocked people. I wasn't thinking anything of it. I mean, this is how blindly I did this (laughter). I guess if I'd actually taken some time to think about it, I might never have taken that song there. But in retrospect, I'm really glad I did. Because it opened up a conversation that wasn't being had there about this lynching and other lynchings. And the first reactions were from some of the townspeople, like, why would you come and sing a song like that? They thought it was my song. They didn't know it was Woody's song. And I started that year to look around for where it happened 'cause there was a description in the book I'd read that said it was six miles southeast out of town, or I can't remember exactly what the directions were, but there's like four roads, four directions going out of town. So I headed out on one of the roads about six miles, and we looked here and there and everywhere, and we never did find it. And then the next year I looked again, 'cause I was invited back and have been subsequently invited back every year. So for the next few years, I looked for that location of that hanging and got sent by two or three different people to different places. Oh, yeah, I know where that is. Yeah, you just gotta' go out here and turn right, and there's a dirt road and then you follow that dirt road until it hits the river, and then you go down the river a little ways. And it was like this kind of stuff, you know? And also in the description, it had said that it was a railroad bridge that the lynching had occurred from. And of course, we had the picture of the bridge and in that picture, there's not only the picture of the hanging, but on the bridge, the entire bridge, is people standing on the bridge watching, looking down, watching the hanging. And it said that Woody's father was there. That might've been, he might've been in the lynch mob, and he might've been in the Ku Klux Klan. Now there's no documentation that he was. It's believed he probably was. But you know, some people just say, yeah, Woody's father was in the Ku Klux Klan. I never say that because I don't know that that was true. It might've been true. But I never stated it. And my reason for that was because Mary Jo Guthrie, Woody's baby sister, became a really good friend of mine for over twenty years. And I don't think that she believed that her father was in the Ku Klux Klan. And I just didn't see any reason to keep throwing that at her or throwing that out there when it would be in her presence. It just didn't seem necessary to me since there wasn't any proof. Might have been was good enough for me. And it was good enough for her, too. So I always left it there, but there's still people that say, yeah, he was definitely in the Ku Klux Klan, and he may well have been in the mob that took her out there. So anyways, I sang the song and was a pretty intense reaction. And then the next year, I sang the song again, and it kind of became signature to me, and people became aware that it was something that had happened in their town. The second year I got a note that somebody brought backstage to me from a guy that had a booth out in the festival area, in the audience area. He had a book booth, like a used bookstore. And it said, Come out and visit my bookstore booth. I've got something for you. And so I went out there after I played, I walked out there to where his booth was, and he said, I've got something for you. And he gave me a copy of the 1920 race--it was called the 1920 Tulsa Race Riot Report (Tulsa Race Riot A Report). So, you know, it was a massacre, not a race riot, but that's what they called it in this report, which was the official report that had been made to try to understand why the massacre had happened in Tulsa. And in the context of that, they talked about the history of lynchings in that region of the country, Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, kind of that area. And further in the deep South, as well. And so, that was an eye-opener (laughter) to get that book. So now it was kind of like the whole thing was kind of outed, you know? And then over the next few years, different people would tell me where the location was, and we would go and look for it and we never could find it. And then, I'm gonna' say, what year was that? I don't know exactly what year it was. It was probably like 2015, 2016, somewhere in there. We were at the festival, and my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, who lives in Hawaii and is a anthropology archeology professor with a specialty in, I guess you call it like the South Pacific Islands. But she's just really interested in that, the whole study of that kind of stuff. And she knew we were at the Woody Guthrie Festival. She knew the stories about this lynching and the song I had sung there. I've told all these same stories to her. And she had had a foot injury and was off her feet, couldn't go anywhere. And so she was vicariously following us at the festival, and started to look at some aerial photography of the area. She knew that the lynching had happened six miles out of town. And she started looking on all these, going around on the map, looking at photographs of--I guess on Google Earth or something. And the first thing she told us was, she said, I look at the picture of that lynching, and that's not a railroad bridge. She says that that that bridge would never hold a train. That's what they call a cart bridge because in the time when that bridge was built, they didn't have cars. Everybody traveled by horse cart. But that means that when that bridge was destroyed. It was probably replaced by another bridge on a road, on an existing road. It's not like just a bridge that came from somewhere and went across the river to somewhere else. It was most likely a bridge on a road, because it was a cart bridge, which meant it was a road, and a continuation over the river of a road. And she said, I think it's this location--was six miles out town going I think west outta' town. I get my directions kind of messed up 'cause I'm not there right now. But anyways, there's the one main road that you could take outta' town. It's like the one road up from Broadway, which is the main drag in Okemah, is highway, I think it's 62. And you take that out of town six miles, and you come to a town about four miles out. You come to a town called Boley, which was the first all-Black town in the United States. It was established by a guy named Boley, who owned the railroads. And after the slaves were freed, after the emancipation of the slaves, he was a guy who was of the opinion that that black people could govern themselves. He was a segregationist. So he felt that Blacks and whites should be segregated but that Blacks could have their own towns, kind of crazy idea. But the white town could be over here and Black town could be over here. So they established this area of land that he owned as Boley, and it could be the first Black town. And then they put the word out that freed slaves could come there and establish a life there. And the history of that is pretty brutal 'cause people would come there, like the first year, it's like a couple dozen folks came there and almost all of them were wiped out by the end of the winter either by disease or by wolves. 'Cause there weren't really any dwellings. I mean, they were basically just living in makeshift shelters. Eventually they established the town. The next year more people would come, bunch more people would get wiped out in the wintertime. And progressively, they established a town there, and it's still there. So you drive past this Black town, which is the area where Laura Nelson and her husband's farm was, they were probably sharecroppers, so probably wasn't their farm. And then eventually you come to this bridge over the Canadian River, and we had been to that bridge, and we'd looked, like you stand on the bridge and look up the river. And it looked a lot like the postcard, very similar landscape to the postcard of that lynching. But we couldn't establish that that's where it was. And we couldn't see anything, any evidence of it. And we were looking at this one direction that looked like the background of the picture. If you looked the other way, it didn't really look the same. So we were looking, I think we were looking to the south. Let's see, we were coming this way. Yeah. We were looking to the south. And, our sister-in-law, my sister-in-law, contacted us and said, I think you're looking the wrong way over that bridge. You should go back out to that bridge and look to the north side and look straight down at the bottom of the bridge. She says, I think I see two big footings on each side of the river from an older bridge along, that comes off of a dirt road. It's like just a farm road now. And then the highway with the new bridge. So we went back out and we look, and sure enough, here's these two concrete pilings, what's left of them with a little bit of rebar sticking out of 'em on each side of the river. So we go down to explore, we go down to the river under the bridge, and there's just all kinds of graffiti there. You know, like this is where it happened. Look up Laura Nelson. And then a whole bunch of obscene racist things written on the bridge wall down there. So you--and beer cans everywhere. And you could just tell this has been a off zone party spot for a long time, and this is where it happened. But the old bridge is gone. And that's the reason that the landscape looked the same is because if you had backed up down past where the old bridge was and looked the same direction, there you have that picture. So we did find the location. 01:11:06.385 --> 01:14:55.000 And as you said, I played that Festival, I played it 27 times, which has been a great honor. In the 25th year, they gave me an award, a Woody Guthrie Legacy Artist award, which was a real honor. There were about five of us that had been on the Festival for over twenty years. I think I might have been maybe the only one that had been there for the whole twenty-five. You know, a couple others had been there for twenty-four years. Or one guy had been there for twenty-four years and had been in a helicopter accident before the Festival one of the years. But he showed up anyways, even though he couldn't play, it was on crutches. So they credited him with that Festival as well. So since I started playing that Festival, I've met several Woody Guthrie scholars. I've read at least two other biographies of Woody Guthrie that have come out. They're very comprehensive. One by Ed Cray and the one by Joe Klein. And then there's several other smaller books. There's a couple children's books that tell his story. There's so much material now. Like when I started to look for Woody Guthrie, there was hardly anything. And now there's just a ton of material. In fact, they just released some recordings that Woody did at home, on a home recorder, when he couldn't really travel around that much anymore because he was starting to have the symptoms of Huntington's disease. So Woody Guthrie's been close to my heart. And a couple years after the initial song that I wrote that was a co-write, I was given four more sets of lyrics that did not have music. And so, I have two Woody Guthrie albums with Woody Guthrie songs, and the first one has the one original lyric and then the second one has four more. And then there's a, some other Woody Guthrie songs on there. Some of them are familiar, but there's some other ones on there that were never recorded by Woody but did have musical notation. And I found those because a few years into the Festival, one of the guys that came to the Festival on a regular basis in the early days, his name was Jim Pollard. And he was the president of the Huntington's Disease association in Lowell, Massachusetts. But when the Festival started, he started coming down to Oklahoma every year to do a panel on Huntington's disease. And we pulled in some people from the local chapter in Oklahoma City. And then Mary Jo Guthrie was on that panel with us because she never got Huntington's disease, and we don't know, it supposedly skips. It's every other generation. It's genetic. And they've discovered a lot about Huntington's disease just in the last few years. I know that they've been able to isolate the gene that causes it. And so, they can test people when they're young to see if they have that gene that means that they may be likely to get it. And there are some even gene-altering procedures now that are experimental. They think that eventually they'll be able to cure Huntington's disease. 01:14:55.000 --> 01:23:31.154 I'm trying to think what else can I cover about Woody Guthrie In my experience with the Woody Guthrie Festival. About half of the way into it, one of the other performers, Jimmy LaFave, who died a few years ago, he and I were two of the first people on the Festival, played it every year. And at a certain point, I think it was probably around 2003 or '04, he put together a review show that was his band and himself, and then about four other songwriters. And those would be like a couple of the songwriters were regulars, song regulars on the show. And then the other two or three songwriters would be people that lived in the areas where we were doing the show. So if we were in the northeast or on the west coast or wherever it would, we would fill in those other two or three songwriter spots with people from that area that had an affinity with the Woody Guthrie Festival or with Woody Guthrie in general. And we had a narrator and we would do these readings of Woody's essays and work from Bound for Glory and other things he'd written. And then that would be followed by a song, a Woody Guthrie song by one of the artists on the show backed up by Jimmy's band, and it was called The Ribbon Highway, Endless Skyway, A Tribute to the Songs and Words of Woody Guthrie. And we did that I guess for about three years, all over the country, at venues all over the country. And I was the--at a certain point, the guy who was our narrator who was from Oklahoma City died. And so, I became the narrator. And we had a show in--before he passed away--we had a show in New York City on Governor's Island, which is, you take the ferry out to Governor's Island. And it was like an eleven o'clock, I think. Eleven o'clock show in the morning. And we all flew in to New York City from various places--from Chicago, Oklahoma, California--whoever was in our cast--just coming from Texas, we're kind of flying all these different places to New York City, and it was a lot of weather issues going on. And so, there were a lot of delays and some plane cancellations. My plane was supposed to get into New York City at like nine o'clock at night and then I would take a taxi to downtown to the hotel we were staying at. And then the next morning at like nine o'clock, I was gonna' meet everybody, take a taxi to Battery Park and meet everybody there at the ferry dock. And then we'd all get on the ferry to Governor's Island. And then they had a stage set up for us there as a big outside venue and whole bunch of people. And we'd do the Ribbon Highway show there. So my plane got delayed. We got to New York City, and they didn't have a place for us to land. So we circled and circled and circled, until finally they said we're getting low on gas and they still don't have a place for us to land, so we're gonna' go to Buffalo, and we're gonna' land in Buffalo until they can clear up all these backed up planes and everything in New York City, and then we'll take you back to New York City. So we get to Buffalo, which is like this little nothing airport up in Buffalo, New York. And we got out of the plane, and we were there for probably three hours waiting. Three, three or four hours. There were no concessions or anything to nothing. You couldn't get anything to eat or anything sitting on terminal waiting. Finally, they said, Okay, we're ready to take you back to New York City. So we got back on the plane, they fly us down to New York City, we land, they deboard us, and by the time we get to the baggage area, it's about three in the morning. And my call is at nine at Battery Park. And so (laughter), we get into the luggage area, and the baggage is just piled up against the walls everywhere. I mean, it's just like stacks of bags everywhere. My bags are just coming in, so I was able to get my bags pretty quickly, but these are all from backed up flights. So I go out to get a taxi, and the taxi queue is literally two-and-a-half or three blocks long. I mean, I can see the end of the line, but it's gonna' be a long time before I get a taxi. And by the time I get my bags and I'm out there, it's a quarter of four. And I'm just going like, oh, man. So I'm in line, way in the back of the line and all of a sudden, this guy comes walking by, Jamaican guy, and he's going, anybody going to Midtown? I give you a ride to Midtown. He says, I got a van. I'll give you a ride to Midtown. Nobody says anything, and it's totally against the law. He's not supposed to be there, scabbing rides. And so I go, I'm going downtown. He goes, not going downtown, going Midtown. So he keeps talking, going to Midtown, going down the line. Standing there going, well, I wish he was going downtown, you know, but he's not. So I'm still standing in line. Pretty soon he comes back, he says, you going downtown? I go, yeah. He says, I'll take you downtown. Says, okay. I grabbed my bags, man. I'm not afraid to go with him. (Laughter.) I jump in his van, and he's this Jamaican guy with a Jamaican accent. And we get talking about--this is kind of a funny anecdote--we're talking about pot. We're talking about marijuana, just like, about how he has a brother that grows marijuana in Jamaica, and we're kind of trading these counterculture marijuana stories. And I said, yeah, you know, the trouble is when you're a musician, if you want to find something to smoke, it's really hard. You know, you go to these different places, and you're a stranger in a strange land, and so you can't find anything. And he says, Just remember this, man, wherever you go, it's already there. And (laughter) that turns out to be true. So I just thought that was just really a funny thing that he said. So I've always remembered that. Anyways, he gives me a ride to my hotel in downtown. I get there. I check in. I've got--it's a nice little room, but you know, by now it's like five in the morning. And I've got four hours to get to sleep and then wake up and meet these people to get a taxi to Battery Park to meet the crew. And so we, I get in the thing and turns out this guy, Bob Childers, who was the narrator, his plane got to Chicago from Oklahoma City, but then his flight was canceled going to New York City. So he's stuck in Chicago, so he's not gonna' get there for the show. And I don't know this yet, but I get to the Battery Park and our producer, who kind of coordinates our whole show and everything, she sees me as I get there, and she comes up to me with the script in her hand, and she just hands me the script, and she says, You could do this, right? (Laughter.) And I look at it and I go, what? And she goes, Bob's not gonna' be here. You know, you need to do the narration, you can do it right? And I go, yeah, I can do it. And then, so I did the narration for that show, and then our next show--I guess Bob made one more show, but he was very fragile. And he died about a month after that. And so I became the narrator of the show for the next, I guess we did it for more than three years. We probably did it for about five or six years. And we ended that show up. And that's about, that's probably about all my information on Woody. 01:23:31.154 --> 01:23:39.094 Thank you so much, Joel, for this third installment of your oral history. And you know, we'll be back together soon at some point. 01:23:39.094 --> 01:23:41.414 Yeah. I've got more stories to tell on this. 01:23:41.414 --> 01:23:42.207 Yes, you do. 01:23:42.207 --> 01:23:43.265 Thank you so much. 01:23:43.265 --> 01:23:45.265 All Right. Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.&#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive&#13 ; information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025_10_21.xml RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025_10_21.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael Joel. Interview, October 21, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part three interview, Rafael discusses the activities and dissolution of the Joel Rafael Band and his twenty-seven years performing at the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-088 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-10-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States Folk music Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967 Folk music — United States — The Joel Rafael Band Folk music festivals—United States Music festivals—Oklahoma Woody Guthrie Folk Festival Baez, Joan, 1941– Communism—United States United States Merchant Marine Lynching—United States Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Salinas (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Austin (Tex.) Santa Monica (Calif.) Okemah (Okla.) Boley (Okla.) New York (N.Y.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael Art and artists Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Aguilar OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Aguilar, John. Interview May 21, 2013 WAHA-02 00:27:16 HIST-01 CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories CSUSM This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. csusm Afghan War, 2001-2021 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Twentynine Palms (Calif.) ; Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (U.S.) ; Veterans--Health aspects--United States ; Veterans' spouses ; Veterans--United States John Aguilar AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/072f64d928766dbd5dfe4c28078244fe.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview introduction Oral history interview of John Aguilar, Jr., May 21, 2013. Aguilar begins the interview by listing his dates of service and his place of service, at Camp Pendleton, California, with the HQ Support Battalion. California State University San Marcos ; Digital History ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; HQ Support Battalion ; Afghan war, 2001-2021 0 79 Enlistment and training Aguilar discusses his motivations for enlistment and his experiences at basic training and at 29 Palms, California for follow-on training as a computer systems expert. basic training ; enlistment ; follow-on training ; 29 Palms (Calif.) 0 243 Death at 29 Palms ; Afghan War Aguilar recounts the death of a sergeant during his training at 29 Palms and how it impacted him. He also recounts around the same time the beginning of the Afghan War, and seeing the attitudes and perspectives of deployed and stateside Marines change as the war progressed. Aguilar also describes the effects on service members that he saw from their deployments, and how they changed upon returning to the United States. 29 Palms (Calif.) ; Afghan war, 2001-2021 ; post-traumatic stress 0 656 Laptops and contractors Aguilar describes his work as IT support, and stress-testing laptops for combat use. Aguilar recalls the military choosing to contract with a company that offered an inferior laptop system over one that he felt was a superior machine for combat use. military contractors ; IT support 0 788 Impacts of service on military members and military families Aguilar circles back to his experiences witnessing the effects of combat service on veterans and recounts a story of a neighbor who suffered a brain injury on active duty that led to divorce. head trauma ; post-traumatic stress ; Afghan war, 2001-2021 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 0 970 Military impact on Aguilar ; Public perception of military service Aguilar speaks to the impact his service had on him and the way it has improved his circumstances. He also speaks to public perceptions of veterans and the glorification of service in our society. 0 1165 Media manipulation, racism and prejudice Aguilar offers his perspective on lessons to take away from the Afghan and Iraq wars, including governmental and media manipulation. He also talks about anti-Arab racism and prejudice against veterans, and offers his thoughts on the human capacity for division. Afghan war, 2001-2021 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; racism ; prejudice 0 1561 Honorable discharge from the Marine Corps Aguilar briefly speaks to his honorable discharge and rank reduction, and misdemeanor conviction for false official statement. honorable discharge ; rank reduction 0 John Aguilar, Jr. is a Marine Corps veteran who served from 2001-2005. In his interview, Aguilar recounts his motivations for enlisting with the Marine Corps and his experiences at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, 29 Palms, California. Aguilar also offers his thoughts and experiences regarding the trauma and changes wrought by combat deployments on veterans and their families, his work in information technology in the Marine Corps, and his perspective on the Iraq and Afghan wars, media manipulation, anti-Arab racism and societal glorification of and prejudice towards veterans.&#13 ; &#13 ; This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:06.865 --> 00:01:19.000 My name is John Aguilar, Jr. I am a former Marine, once a Marine, always a Marine. Former active duty. I am here at ca--at Cal State San Marcos. And I'm doing--participating in this WAHA project. War At Home and Abroad. And I'm giving my experience for Digital History. Um, right now I'm looking at a written account that I made here, because I don't have any questions or prompts to work with. But I served from March of 2001 to April of 2005. I enlisted in the Bronx, New York, and I served mostly here at Camp Pendleton. I was with the HQ Support Battalion of the parent unit for Camp Pendleton. So my unit wasn't deployable. When the war actually kicked off, we would just send someone out six months at a time and we would rotate that way. I never went out. My turn just never came up. 00:01:19.000 --> 00:04:03.000 Well, when I, uh, when I first enlisted, I was married with two children. I had two daughters and married my high school sweetheart. And we were just in a position where we didn't have any resources, aside from public assistance, and I didn't want to rely on that. I did face opposition. I had people telling me, you know, that I couldn't do anything else. That I had to work and work dead end--two dead end jobs, and get food stamps. And that was my option. I didn't like hearing that, and I felt that joining the military would be a good way to acquire skills and get the GI Bill so that I could actually do something with my life. So I chose the Marine Corps because I felt that it was the best of all the branches. They expect more of their members. And I didn't feel like I wanted to sell myself short. So I enlisted. I just went in one day, let everybody know. You know, I had church members telling me I was doing the wrong thing. I had my family, uh, was afraid that I wouldn't actually do it. I remember one day I came home, my wife told me that people were actually asking her if I had given up this "Marine thing." So when I heard that, if there were any doubts left in me, that drove them out. So I went through with it. I spent four months there. So I had, uh, some stress fractures in my legs. So I had to spend a month recuperating. Finished the third phase of training, which involved a lot of pain because I wasn't used to training after a month in rehab. I almost gave up just because it--it just hurt that much that I wanted to just throw the towel in, but I didn't. So anyway, I went on to become a co--a small computer systems expert. Um, I was in 29 Palms for about two or three months. And after a second trip over there for a couple months, tell you is one place I don't want to be. 29 Palms is not a nice place. The people there are not very friendly towards Marines. It's basically a desert and there's not much to look forward to there. I've heard of some people who like living there but my experience there has been horrible. 00:04:03.000 --> 00:05:05.000 I actually lost a sergeant there. I watched him, literally watched him die on his feet. He--and it traumatized me. It was the first time I saw anyone die. You know, coming from the South Bronx, it's like, I'd never witnessed that before. And, um, no, I didn't think he had passed. His body was moving. What I didn't realize was that it was just the air coming out of his body. It made it look like he was trying to talk but he was dead before he even hit the floor. And, a couple, you know, his best friend was there, another sergeant, and a staff sergeant. And they tried to revive him, but, you know, they couldn't. There was no possibility. I won't say his name, just in case his family ever sees this, I wouldn't want to bring it back to their memory. 00:05:05.000 --> 00:06:59.000 So, uh, it recently--I mean like relatively a short time after that, I--we were running when it happened. So after that, when people would say things like, you know, we're gonna run until we die, and things like that, I would freak out. I would just act like I felt like they really were gonna run until they died because that's what happened. The sergeant was running and he died. And after that, I remember one time we were watching videos--because the next day the sergeant had passed away--the very next day the war kicked off in Afghanistan. And, uh, people were sending YouTube videos of bodies, like people getting shot. And this one Arabic guy had gotten shot in this one video, and the air was coming out of his body. He was just like that sergeant, just, it looked like he's alive, but he's not. It's just the air coming out. And one of the marines with me making com--was still making comments. "Oh, yeah, look at him. He's still alive. He's still alive." You know, like if it was so cool that this guy got shot and was dying on camera, and like, I snapped at him and I'm like, "No, he's already dead! Obviously you've never seen a dead body." And, I let him know that the guy was already dead and it was the air coming out of his body. And just, I think it drove home for the people that were there that they didn't know what they were looking at. You know, it wasn't a movie, it wasn't fake. It was real. And none of us in that room had that experience of going to combat and of killing someone. 00:06:59.000 --> 00:08:38.534 One of the things that I did see recently was a presentation that Dr. (Ibrahim) Al-Marashi had on the War Against Terror. And he--one of the clips he shows was a video of a Marine being interviewed by a journalist saying that he and his friends shot someone and got a rush out of killing them, and that they wanted to do it again. And I noticed that there was no counterview presented. From some of my friends that went over there. I think that the initial attitude was one of conquest and excitement. And I think that changed though. I think it needs to be said that that changed. When people started dying, when Marines and other service members started seeing their friends blown up--for those of us who didn't deploy, news coming back of people that we worked with dying, IEDs exploding and killing people that we worked with. One--there's another sergeant--the one that I saw die? He didn't get to see his, I believe it was his daughter. He was--they were expecting a daughter, so he didn't get to see her. I mean, he died in relatively peaceful terms, you know. But another sergeant that I worked with, he was hit by an IED and he was expecting a child as well. 00:08:38.534 --> 00:10:56.715 So things like that, that we have to deal with at home, knowing that--two months ago I was working with this person and whether or not I got along with him is irrelevant. Because now he's dead. You know, whatever I felt about him doesn't matter. He has a wife that was waiting for him. He has a child that was waiting for him. People that did know him and love him were waiting for him to come back. And that would never happen, you know? So I think it needs to be said that while initially people were inappropriately excited to go to war, the reality of it eventually sank in. And that changed. The attitude totally changed. I'm sure there are those people who I were ignorant and felt like it would be exciting to go, you know, now ten years later. But the people that actually went through it, they were changed. They would, they came back differently. They, a lot of them couldn't walk by buildings. They walk around staring at windows because they're so used to having to watch out with snipers. I remember my car, the trunk, if I remotely open my trunk, a Marine happens to be walking by--you know, I'm approaching my car, I open my trunk, and they're jumping because they think something's about to happen. They're expecting an explosion or something. And I remember the first few times that I wasn't expecting that. And it was totally innocent. And I saw the reactions on their faces. So it made me realize that it had changed. The way people talked about it after a couple of years, it just, it was not that exciting, pumped up, I'm gonna go out and kill people, kind of thing. So, I just want that to be made clear, that with experience that attitude for the most part, changes. I'm sure there are exceptions. 00:10:56.715 --> 00:13:08.774 To talk about my job in the Marine Corps as a computer expert, I basically was the IT guy. Um, I had the opportunity to test one of the laptop suites that was sent out to the desert. These laptops were made, uh, just like typical laptops. I think they were just little heavier. And, it was competing with another system that would've definitely been a much better computer system for a combat zone. And I don't know who the companies that were involved, but I guess the laptop system had been purchased even though the other system was a lot better, and was suited for a combat zone. You were able to switch out parts very easily. And I really don't know why the military decided to go with that laptop system. We had to--a friend, me and another Marine--we had to work on it and debug it, come up with ways to solve the problems that were coming up in the software. We probably spent a, a week doing that. And the whole time we're sitting there just asking ourselves why would the Marine Corps want to give Marines this system? It was just full of problems. So, that's just a commentary on how we're not sending our service members out there with the best that's available. I know that whole, um, there was that whole argument going on about armor, and I can tell you firsthand, the software they were supposed to use was not the best that was available, for better or for worse. Um, I think that politics were involved and contractors were just out there to make money. I don't think they really cared about providing the best for our people. 00:13:08.774 --> 00:15:40.225 Um, and I've heard a lot of talk about the way people in the Middle East were living. And I wasn't there myself so can't really say if our presence there really made a difference or not. Because I haven't seen it firsthand. So I just won't comment on that because I really--I really don't know anything that hasn't been said in the news. I have my own opinions. I think, uh, I think that while Saddam Hussein probably did need to get deposed, I don't know if our presence there for so long was really necessary. So I just want my--in my view, I think that we really need to just scale down our presence there. A lot of people have died. A lot of people coming back injured, you know, irrevocably changed for the rest of their lives. I had a neighbor who was, uh, who was a reservist in the army, and he was unemployed at the time. He and his wife had three children. And he gets called up to go to, I believe to Afghanistan, maybe Iraq. And when he comes back, he had a brain injury. And it was to the extent that he had a British accent, even though he was American. So he comes back with this accent. His wife said that he wasn't the same, excuse me, he wasn't the same person. His personality had changed. And I remember they were my upstairs neighbor. So when I moved out of that apartment that same night, she was arguing with her husband over the phone to the extent that someone had called the police. The police thought he was in there, that they were fighting. I had to let them know, no, that's not the case. They're arguing on the phone because their marriage had devolved to the point that she wanted a divorce. And that that happened maybe in about a three to four month period after him returning. So, you know, those are the kinds of things that the war is creating. 00:15:40.225 --> 00:16:10.000 You have people who are physically maimed and injured. Marriages are falling apart, people are dying. It just--I don't think that it should be happening. You know, I think we did what we needed to do, and the governments there need to take control of the situation. And that's really how I feel about it. 00:16:10.000 --> 00:17:37.025 As far as my service in the military, I'm very proud of what I accomplished, and I was able to turn my life around. Here I am working on my master's degree, and my children have someone to look up to. And before I enlisted, I just didn't have that. I didn't have the resources that I needed to really make something of myself. But I think that people need to keep in mind that earning the title of a Marine or becoming a Soldier or a sailor or an Airman, there's still, they are still people. And I think like this glorification, hero worship, I really think it needs to get toned down because a lot of the time people are enlisting and they're not knowing what it is they're getting into, you know? You're not treated the same as most people are, in the military, and you are held to higher standards. And sometimes I think that the standards you're being held to can be unreasonable. And I think it causes people to stress out. It causes people to change and not always for the better. 00:17:37.025 --> 00:19:25.815 I think that when the public engages service members, they need to do it from a perspective of how this is a person who is maybe achieving things, and accomplishing things, and simply just getting things done because they have to, It is not that somebody goes into the service knowing what's expected of them. Because you think you know, but you don't. You don't know until you get there. I don't--I think that military members need to also keep in mind that they volunteered for service. And when they expect other people to fawn over them and tend to their every need, it's not a reasonable expectation. And I see that a lot. And I remember when I was there mentally, where I thought that I should be held in a higher regard because of my service. And the fact of the matter is: I volunteered. You know, I wasn't forced to do it. I didn't have to. It wasn't compulsory service where it's so terrible that I made it through against my will. It's not how it, how it is, you know? There were people who did more than what I did. There were people who did less than what I did. And that's in any endeavor that we take upon ourselves. I think, so I guess what I'm trying to say is I think we all need to be grounded in reality. 00:19:25.815 --> 00:21:15.365 I think that when people think about this war in the future, when we look back, I think we really need to question what's being fed to us. The government really took control of the media and censored what was sent back. Now we know we were lied to about multiple issues. And I think that's part of the problem, is that people who initially went over there thought that they were doing something really great and honorable, and that may not be the case. We can talk about spreading democracy what we want, but the people there may not have wanted that. If anything we could've tried politically to change the government. And without getting into a convoluted discussion, you know, it's just too complex to boil down to a few words, but I think we just really need to question our government's motives and not make assumptions. And especially the way people talk about Arab Americans or Arabs in general. This is supposed to be the melting pot. And our military is made up of many ethnicities and religions, and people just throw around these slurs and degrade other people like it's fine. Like it's acceptable. And that shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. Racism and prejudice should not be viewed in that light. 00:21:15.365 --> 00:22:33.000 I think as a Marine, I think that I have a duty to speak out against that kind of thing. I think that while I will defend my fellow servicemen from people who make those assumptions and try to degrade them, at the same time, I'm having to defend people who are being subjected to that by the military. Like when a service member makes comments about Arabs, I will defend the Arab community because it's the right thing to do. Not every single person from the Middle East, whether they live there or descended from their, has to anything to do with terrorism. And at the same time, you know, not every service member is a gung-ho, trigger-happy racist. Both sides of the equation are complex, and individuals all have their own views. And I think we need to remember that. I think ultimately what I, what my message would be is that we all need to remember that we're all people. 00:22:33.000 --> 00:23:46.365 The Marine Corps, the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Arabs in the countries that we have invaded, that we have conducted airstrikes, like in Libya, the governments, the--even the rebels, they're all people. You know, some people who are fighting, like American contractors down there, uh, rebels even, like I heard one story about a rebel who was captured and he said the only reason he was fighting was for a paycheck. It's like, they're not even ideologically inclined. They're just there to make a paycheck to feed their families. And a lot of our military members join to get a paycheck. So it goes beyond politics. It goes beyond politics. And I just really feel like we need to keep that in perspective. 00:23:46.365 --> 00:24:24.000 Um, so I hope I didn't sound too high-handed and I hope I didn't come across like I'm rambling. But we just need to keep in mind that people are people and wars are politics. Politicians decide that we go to war, not generals. And the people on the ground are not always there because they want to be there. 00:24:24.000 --> 00:26:01.233 And the military changed my life for the better, and not everyone is that lucky. And I met some great people who we will have lifelong friendships. And I met people who I don't ever want to hear from again, you know, and that's just keeping with my point that not everyone can be put into one framework. Ultimately we're all people, we're all individuals, we're all a composite of our experiences and education and instruction, you know? So I would just like for our service members who might be watching this, people who are thinking of joining, to keep in mind that the people that you might be down range from shooting at, getting shot at by--and I'm not saying don't defend yourself--I'm just saying they may not believe what you're being told that they believe. And you probably don't believe what they are being told you believe. I think we just need to keep that in perspective. There are many layers to any situation and war is not exempt from that. So I guess that's all I really have to say. Thanks. (video cuts and is turned back on) 00:26:01.233 --> 00:27:17.233 Okay. I'm just gonna give my rank here. I was discharged in April of 2005 as a private. I got an honorable discharge, even though my rank was reduced, I had promoted up to Lance Corporal and a legal investigation ensued, which took two years, so I couldn't get promoted to corporal. And went to the hearing and it lasted a few days, maybe a week. And the conviction came back with a misdemeanor, false official statement. Now I didn't make a written statement and I didn't make a verbal statement. The--that's just what came out of the hearing after all the evidence was heard. So even though I was reduced in rank, I still got my honorable discharge. And I discharged maybe a week after the--I served a sentence of, I believe, fifteen days or twenty days. And I discharged a week after that. So I'm Private John Aguilar, Jr. Thanks. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.xml AguilarJohn_MillardMicah_2013-05-21_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/4/resources/55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aguilar, John. Interview May 21, 2013 Description An account of the resource John Aguilar, Jr. is a Marine Corps veteran who served from 2001-2005. In his interview, Aguilar recounts his motivations for enlisting with the Marine Corps and his experiences at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, 29 Palms, California. Aguilar also offers his thoughts and experiences regarding the trauma and changes wrought by combat deployments on veterans and their families, his work in information technology in the Marine Corps, and his perspective on the Iraq and Afghan wars, media manipulation, anti-Arab racism and societal glorification of and prejudice towards veterans. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-02 Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001-2021 Iraq War, 2003-2011 Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (U.S.) United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps -- Recruiting and enlistment Veterans -- Health aspects -- United States Veterans -- United States Veterans' spouses Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Aguilar, Jr. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> CSUSM Veterans Voices Latine experience Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a6843277848736469c82be27a54962ad.pdf caee1d3a111589aaef8eb8b480547558 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aguilar, John. Interview transcript, May 21, 2013 Description An account of the resource John Aguilar, Jr. is a Marine Corps veteran who served from 2001-2005. In his interview, Aguilar recounts his motivations for enlisting with the Marine Corps and his experiences at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, 29 Palms, California. Aguilar also offers his thoughts and experiences regarding the trauma and changes wrought by combat deployments on veterans and their families, his work in information technology in the Marine Corps, and his perspective on the Iraq and Afghan wars, media manipulation, anti-Arab racism and societal glorification of and prejudice towards veterans. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Aguilar, Jr. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-21 Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001-2021 Iraq War, 2003-2011 Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (U.S.) United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps -- Recruiting and enlistment Veterans -- Health aspects -- United States Veterans -- United States Veterans' spouses Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-02 CSUSM Veterans Voices Latine experience Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5c41e45a9e19b8754a22c3428a572fc2.mp4 e282ae6225774ef6b527980b1089ce42 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Karen Schaffman, June 5, 2025 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany San Marcos (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0068bb6bea2ea5f55c2f9c5c968a5d27.pdf a666cc68c14f402d6f965e1b1ace736a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Interview transcript, June 5, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_transcript Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karen Schaffman OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. SC027-084 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Karen Schaffman Jennifer Fabbi moving image SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5c41e45a9e19b8754a22c3428a572fc2.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 56 Experience with dance as a child and adolescent Schaffman reflects on being a lifelong dancer starting with her initial experience with dance as a child and her mother’s role in exposing her to dance. lifelong dancer ; mother ; Connecticut Ballet ; ballet ; jazz ; Hartford Conservatory 0 382 Formal education Schaffman details her formal undergraduate and graduate education in dance including a degree at the European Dance Development Center in Holland and a PhD in Dance History and Theory at University of California, Riverside. University of Massachusetts ; women's studies ; feminism ; gap year ; San Francisco ; improvisation ; Holland ; Germany ; California ; University of California, Riverside ; Feldenkrais Method ; Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais 0 874 Foundational theory and practice for Schaffman’s work Schaffman describes theories and practices that underpin her work including a somatic approach to dance, perceptual improvisation, dance dialects, and contact improvisation. somatics ; perceptual improvisation ; dance dialects ; contact improvisation ; performance and cultural theory 0 1802 Service to the community and profession Schaffman discusses her teaching, scholarship, and service and how she was able to differentiate her service from teaching and scholarship during the retention, tenure, and promotion process. teaching ; scholarship ; creative activity ; service ; David Avalos ; Susan Foster ; Lower Left ; Bonnie Biggs ; Mtfti Imara ; California Center for the Arts ; Andrea Liss ; Kristine Diekman ; Meryl Goldberg ; Center ARTES ; Marilyn Huerta ; Arts and Lectures ; curriculum 0 2233 International work Schaffman speaks to her work in and travels to different countries and the influence this has had on her life and career. global citizen ; intercultural exchange ; Europe ; Mexico ; Pachuca ; Day of the Dead ; Holland 0 2238 Plans in retirement Schaffman shares her plans for retirement including slowing down, participating in a training institute in Vienna, and coming back to teaching at CSUSM as part of the Faculty Early Retirement Program. Donna Ray ; Feldenkrais ; training institute ; Vienna ; Pilates 0 2456 Schaffman’s journey to CSUSM and evolution of the campus and curriculum Schaffman reflects on the evolution of CSUSM, especially regarding the growth of the dance curriculum and program, faculty, and guest artists. curriculum ; University Curriculum Committee ; dance minor ; Choreographies of Resistance ; Michael McDuffie ; Ranjeeta Basu ; Cheri Hill ; breadth ; active learning ; social justice ; diversity ; Arts and Lectures ; Dancing through Prison Walls ; Visual and Performing Arts ; space ; theater ; Anya Cloud 0 4019 Working during the Covid pandemic Schaffman talks about her work during the Covid pandemic and the rise of Black Lives Matter and murder of George Floyd. (keywords: pandemic, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd, online performances, Historically Black Colleges and Universities, Mtfti Imara, T. Lang, Melicia Taylor, Black artists, Zoom, Skyla Miles, Minnie Atkins, sabbatical, Think Gravity Dance Tank, symposium, Anya Cloud, Ishmael Houston-Jones, contact improvisation, Contact Dance International Film Festival, Makisig Akin) pandemic ; Black Lives Matter ; George Floyd ; online performances ; Historically Black Colleges and Universities ; Mtfti Imara ; T. Lang ; Melicia Taylor ; Black artists ; Zoom ; Skyla Miles ; Minnie Atkins ; sabbatical ; Think Gravity Dance Tank ; symposium ; Anya Cloud ; Ishmael Houston-Jones ; contact improvisation ; Contact Dance International Film Festival ; Makisig Akin 0 4486 Schaffman’s most impactful work Schaffman reflects on what she considers to be her most impactful work. She believes the creation of the Dance program at CSUSM is the most important accomplishment of her career. Debra Hay ; Lower Left ; dance program ; Summer Arts ; Think Gravity 0 5169 Additional projects and collaborations Schaffman adds a few more collaborative projects that she wants to give her colleagues and the University credit for. United and Severed ; Kristine Diekman ; traumatic injury ; PTSD ; palliative care ; Mindfulness Center ; Elizabeth Hospice Center 0 Oral history Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:29.614 Hello, this is Jen Fabbi, and today I am interviewing Dr. Karen Schaffman for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is June 5th, and it is 2:10 p.m. This interview is taking place at Karen's office on the CSU San Marcos campus, where we are guests on traditional unceded Luiseño/Payómkawichum land. Karen, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:29.614 --> 00:00:31.545 Thank you. 00:00:31.545 --> 00:00:41.375 So to start off, can you tell me about your experience with dance as a child and adolescent and where you got your passion for dance? 00:00:41.375 --> 00:00:47.495 Great, thank you. And first, I'd like to begin by also thanking you so much for the opportunity to share my story, and it's really truly an honor in this moment of my life to have this interview. 00:00:47.495 --> 00:00:49.638 Absolutely. 00:00:49.638 --> 00:00:54.228 Thank you so much. 00:00:54.228 --> 00:00:56.064 You're welcome. 00:00:56.064 --> 00:01:30.356 My childhood story began with dance. So I've been dancing--I'm a lifelong dancer. And I began dancing as a kid. And very young. My mom, there was, we lived on the end of a street, and there was a summer creative dance program. I must have been two or three. I don't have the exact date from my mom. And that's where I fell in love with dance. I have some little picture somewhere stored away with me like in some kind of end of something performance. But it was on the playground, and it was outdoors,and that's where my dance career began. Dance for me--should I just ramble? Is that good? 00:01:30.356 --> 00:01:34.752 Yeah. 00:01:34.752 --> 00:05:45.834 Dance for me was always a sense of a place for me to belong and I'll say survive. I was very supported to go to dance through my whole childhood, but we were a middle class family, and so I relied on scholarships, I usually got them. I was seriously into dance. So I danced until I was probably in seventh grade, No, maybe sixth grade, like twice a week. And then I got into a dance company, and I had a child's part in the Connecticut Ballet, regional Ballet Company. So very early on was I in a very kind of intergenerational environment, and you'll hear through this interview that that's really important to my work and maturing as a still as a performing artist. So it was really, uh, that was like a turning point for me to be in that company. But it was also a time in my life where I had been studying ballet where--my body started to change and I knew that, and then peer pressure and things like high school and things like that. So I changed to modern dance and jazz. So at the time, jazz dance was really predominant. So that's my, just my, like, early days. But I think I'm really not getting to the heart of it with my mom, because my mom really shuttled me back and forth. She was a nurse and, uh, full time, so I had a lot of chores at home to do and things like that. But I always knew that after the chores, my mother was coming home from work and basically going back to the same neighborhood. And so, yeah, it was a really important time for me. My brothers were very into sports and at the time we didn't have Title IX, and I was not encouraged to do sports. I think I probably would've been a good athlete, actually, but I wasn't really invited or included. So dance was really a natural place for me to be physical. But I loved going to dance class. I loved--in the ballet--I was in a ballet conservatory. It was called the Hartford Conservatory. Again, I was one of the young ones there. And there was a live pianist. His name was Julius. And I just remember just loving going there. And I had two older brothers, and it was really, it wasn't a great home environment. My brothers were pretty rough on me to put it lightly. So going to dance was always a place for me to just go and be. And I had really, really good training. I have to be--I'm so grateful that I landed in those places because my teachers were very supportive, but they were also slow with me. They were like--I was called Little K--Little K, we're not putting you on point shoes yet because your ankles aren't strong enough. So I actually had really, really, really good training. So I'm very--I'm very, very grateful for that. My mom, later in life, showed me a letter that they were encouraging me to go to a performing arts high school, and my mother didn't want me to go. And it was after I got my PhD and a career in dance that she said, You know, I need to--it was like she needed to make amends. So she showed me the letter from the Hartford Conservatory encouraging my mother to put me in a professional program, but she didn't. So, but that's interesting. So I don't know where my career would've went at that time. But I stayed in. So, my time with dance was--but I was very, very shy, I have to say. So I grew into not being shy as I got older, but as a kid I was a very shy, and so people asked me to dance in front of them. I'd always be like, no, I--it's like I didn't, I wasn't one of those kids who would be like, get up on the table or get up in front of grandma and grandpa and show them what you do. So I was very, very shy as a kid. So dance was a place where I-- and performance was a place for me to go. Yeah. I could go on and on about that, but. 00:05:45.834 --> 00:06:22.134 Well, maybe it'll come up in some questions. Okay. So you have substantial formal education. You earned a BA in Dance and Literature at UMass Amherst, and an equivalent degree in experimental dance at the European Dance Development Center in the Netherlands, and also your PhD in Critical Dance Studies at UC Riverside. And please fill in anything that I missed. How did your formal education impact who you are as a professional? 00:06:22.134 --> 00:14:14.595 So I only applied to three schools for undergraduate, and it was not a given, but pretty much where I grew up in a very middle class family that I would go to college. I didn't get into Cornell. That was my first choice. I didn't know how I was gonna afford that anyway. And then University of Connecticut was my backup, but they didn't have a dance program, so I didn't really want to go there, but my parents encouraged me. And at the time, there was this five-hour radius of driving, like, it was very strict where we were gonna apply back then. And I was on my own, actually, my grandmother was very ill, and my grandparents had moved from Brooklyn to be next to my mom. So I got into a dance major program at University of Massachusetts, and it's a very good program. They had something called the Five College Dance Program, which is part of a consortium with Smith College, Hampshire College, Mount Holyoke, and Amherst. So I got to pay, it was still outta state, Massachusetts, but got to take advantage of the five college dance program. But even finishing my first year, I was like, something's wrong here. I didn't really like the dance program. It was very competitive. And even though I didn't have any issues with what they thought would maybe be too much weight in the wrong places or anything, they were very critical of other dancers. And I knew right at that age that I wasn't really jiving with that program. Though I was even teaching my first year 'cause I was very advanced. So they gave me the work study teaching, like for the university. So I kind of gave up that opportunity, and I dropped out of the dance program, and I did what was called a bachelor's degree with an independent concentration. So I did dance and literature. So I always continued dancing, but I took all of my dance classes in the five college area. So I kind of got this semi Ivy League or alternative school 'cause Hampshire is a very alternative education. And then I took other classes at UMass, but UMass just opened my eyes up to many things. I did musical theater there and, but my dance and literature was really, really important because I did a lot of, what we called then, well, was--it was UMass had one of the first women's studies programs. So I did a lot of women's literature and I did, I learned about feminism, I was like, this was like my awakening. Yeah. I took a lot of what we call then third-world women's writing and literature courses. So I'm not from the third world, but we don't even use that phrasing anymore. But UMass was in the forefront of politics in the body at the time. So, it's interesting how that became, came back and around. So I had a great education there. I did take what we call now a gap year at the time 'cause I needed to get out into the world. And then I went, I lived in San Francisco for a while and then I knew I wanted to live overseas or go overseas, but I didn't wanna be a tourist. So I got in--there was no internet or anything then. So I was studying in San Francisco with Joe Good in a summer workshop. And this woman who's now well known in New York, Sarah (now I show my absent mind). Sarah Mickelson said, you should go here. She was British. and so there was a school in Holland, and they take two guests a year, and they accepted me with like my CV and a cover letter and a letter of recommendation. And I had no money. My parents were not supporting me at all in this phase of my life. I was waitressing in San Francisco and doing dictation. I worked on the first little Mac box. And I got a loan--I think I'll share this--from the Hebrew Free Loan Association. They gave me $2,000 up front, but I had to pay, start paying back $50 a month. And off I went to Europe, and I paid my tuition. And so I had like, I don't know, I had only like $500 left in my pocket, and I went to the school in Holland. And that basically just changed my life. So it was very alternative. And it was very much based in improvisation, but many of the teachers were coming from either England or the United States, from New York. So it was kind of the New York, the downtown scene, all of the people who were working with somatics in the body. So really doing deep research in terms of inner sensation and anatomical release it was called. So it was a very particular kind of dancing. And I was just like, I would just, I was just mind blown. I would stand there in the studio and somebody would do a performance where they would just take ten minutes to raise their arms. And it was the most beautiful thing I ever saw in my life. I was like, okay, what is this? And then the school split. They opened a new school in the town called Arnhem, and I went to Arnhem, and I spent two years there. And I had an amazing experience there with many amazing artists that I'm still, some of them I'm still in touch with. And I've curated, actually, here at the school and in summer arts. And so I went to there, changed my life. And then I got a job teaching in Germany before Germany had master's degrees in dance. And I worked in a conservatory environment there in a clown and dance school, So I taught at a clown and dance school for three years. And that was a great experience. But at the time I was involved with someone. I had to make a decision. So I decided to move to California. And, I was, What am I gonna' do here? And that's a longer story, but there was a brand-new program that I was thinking about getting a master's, but because I became so open to this other way of dancing, there was really no master's programs at the time that I was interested in, except maybe in New York. And I was like, Well, I live in California now. But there was a brand-new program at UC Riverside. It was the third year, and it was one of the very, among the very first top three universities that gave a PhD in dance. And so when I saw the poster in the back of one of these magazines called Contact Quarterly is how I found out about it, I was like, Oh, wow. So I went and I sat in on a few seminars and I was like, I wanna go there. So I applied. And so then I went to UC, Riverside. And it's really a groundbreaking program in terms of dance studies, the field of dance studies, which is different than just getting a degree in dance. Yeah. Dance studies is really about the political, social, and cultural impact and of the body and dance in the world. So that's what I did. And then I have one more education that I did that's very extensive called the Feldenkrais Method. So thank you to this university who partially funded that education. Yes. It's a four-year program, and it's based on the somatic educational method. And it's based on research of someone named Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais, and he was part of the human development generation. Yeah. He was also born the same year as my grandfather in the Ukraine, which was interesting. But he had a knee injury. He was one of the first white people, men, white men, to learn judo. And he learned judo, and he brought a lot of Eastern philosophy into this body modality. So it's not a dance training, it's really about finding ease in your own movement. So I still do that now. I bring that into all I do. And so I have, those are my key big degrees. 00:14:14.595 --> 00:14:34.754 So following up on that your focus for your career for the last several decades has been on somatics, perceptual improvisation, contact improvisation, and performance and cultural theory. Can you tell me a little bit more about these areas of focus? 00:14:34.754 --> 00:18:27.000 Yes. So you had somatic, perceptual improvisation, cultural theory, and contact improvisation? Yeah. So a somatic approach to dance, or the body, has to do with more about feeling than how it looks. It's really about inner sensation and really getting in touch with oneself on a very cellular level, if I can speak that way. It's more about embodied and lived experience and of course, that has cultural and impact culturally and through people's cultural history and ancestry. But it--and it really includes this very sensorial based way of dancing and through the world. So it's not about how it looks like, for example, like ballet where you have to look a certain way or something, but really about an inner sensorial world that brings forward the dance or the healing or whatever. So it's, it's an ancient way of being with oneself before we had technologies and things like that. So that's the somatic piece. Is that clear kind of? It is? And then perceptual improvisation really has to do with, again, responding to the conditions. So it's a little bit more related to the visual art world. And one of my areas that I researched, well, probably since I'm a kid, but is visual art. And I also studied--I took Harvard summer school one summer way, way back when, and I did video when it was a three-quarter inch and you sit down (unintelligible). So I did some--I've studied some videos. So I'm, it's really about--how do I explain perception improvisation on an interview like this? Let's see. Something about how do we, how do we perceive the world? So it's, it really does relate a lot to visual arts in terms of perspective and visual field and responding, but could be your auditory field as well. So it's related to somatics in that way. It also is really, really related to Eastern thought, which is about inner perception and meditation and things like that. So I've cultivated a more contemplative way of approaching dance as well. Yeah. It comes from, I wouldn't say I am a Buddhist or anything like that, but I've studied Eastern philosophy. I've done a little bit of martial arts, just a little bit. So I've kind of come at it with that. And then cultural theory is dance and cultural studies. Dance studies is really a blend of dance and the field of cultural studies. So we're really looking about diversity in dance, and we're considering not just a European perspective of dance, which becomes very stereotypical. And so it's changed so much then. But it's really the dance studies field really emerged out of celebrating and analyzing, honoring the histories and practices of diverse cultures across the world. I mean, there's so many dance dialects that around the world. So dance studies really opened my eyes up to how big the world of dance is and how much of an impact it has politically and socially on our identity and things like that. So everything we learn about dance can be applied to (unintelligible). Dance studies can be applied to any field, really, in my opinion, because it has so much to do with the politics of the body. Yeah. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:28.000 That's really interesting. 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:35.444 Yeah. Yeah. And I bring that here to Cal State. 00:18:35.444 --> 00:18:43.535 So how have your areas of focus benefited your students? Many students over the years? 00:18:43.535 --> 00:23:12.493 Well, and I did talk about contact, so I'll bring that back 'cause that's what my area of research was about. I think I should say something about contact now. Is that okay? So my PhD was based on contact improvisation, which is, brings together all of those other practices--somatics, perceptual improvisation, dance technique, and then cultural studies. So I was looking at something that emerged from the fifties and sixties, which was a huge art movement in New York and really influenced a lot of people. And it was based on gravity and momentum and touch. So contact improvisation. My dissertation was really also a lot about touch and how contact improvisation, which is a touch-based dance form. It's like what happens when two bodies move together? And with gravity and momentum? Now we do this, people do this, not me, in tango, in salsa, and all sorts of dance traditions around the world. But contact has a particular aesthetic. And so it might look like something, but it's so much based in sensorial awareness. So this was--has been--a big part of my life is contact improvisation. And so--but contact improvisation sometimes universalizes this idea of what the body is. So my dissertation also took that apart and down a bit that said, No, this is very particular as a particular way of moving. It's not universal. Not everybody does it, you know, things like that. So anyway, it's a longer discussion, but I bring all of that into San Marcos when I--CSUSM--when I came here there was no program. And so it was clear to me that I was starting in a very challenging place but also really exciting place. One of the reasons I took the job here--I got an offer at a school that was already established as well. Because dance, dance for here, the byline here is that dance is for everybody and every body. And that this would be an inclusive environment and that this would be an environment that welcomes all students. So it would not be conservatory driven or even wanting to go in that direction. Even though we would be working on our technique, on our awareness--we would use words like awareness rather than virtuosity. You know, virtuosity is great, but would be more about awareness. So it's a very inclusive environment. And I think I was highly successful at that. And that is actually happening. So I think that's the biggest thing. But the students always are like, it's really different here. When people come to visit or high schools come always like, oh, it's really different here because it's really about community and there's a lot of support. We don't just dance. We talk about where we're at. We take a weather report. What's going on? One word, you know, everybody share a word. How do you feel today? We talk about access needs. We don't make assumptions in the class that everybody's gonna do everything. So there's a lot of that. So it's really with what my friend, Anya Cloud, collaborator, brought the phras--she was a lecturer here for nine years--"Dancing with the body you have." So yeah, no assumptions. No assumptions. Yeah. And also adaptability. access needs, cultural backgrounds, what's going on in the world. We don't ignore, we don't go, you may get a great escape in a dance class, but dance studies is not about this dream. that dance helps me escape the world. It's basically the opposite. It's really about grounding in the reality and what am I dealing with and what are the conditions right here and now? So I've cultivated those kinds of values here. And then the other big thing is because I went to Riverside, early on I brought in that students need to relate whatever we're learning in the class. almost every, and almost--not all classes, but many classes are like--how do you relate this to your major or something you care about in the world? Because dance is always in dialogue. We're always in relationship to the world. 00:23:12.493 --> 00:23:14.733 That's really, it sounds very unique. 00:23:14.733 --> 00:23:28.015 Yes, it is. (laughter) It's a unique program that that emerged. And, um, yeah, see where it goes, too, so I'm hopeful. 00:23:28.015 --> 00:23:35.375 So what has scholarship and creative activity looked like in your career as a professor of dance? 00:23:35.375 --> 00:24:20.000 Um, in my career? Or just, what was, can you repeat the question? I'm sorry. I was looking at my note up before that. I just said at the end, I wrote myself a little note about my area of focus. "It's fun and entertaining, but it's also much more than that." I talk to students. First of all, it's more than just the steps. We're not gonna just learn phrases in here and look in the mirror. I wanna add that students freak out 'cause in many classes we're like, let's close the curtains. Like, we don't always have to--and that's the somatic aspect, okay, is can you feel this movement? Why are you staring at yourself in the mirror? The mirrors can be very helpful, but, so I just wanted to sort of add that. 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:33.743 So the, the question, the question was, as a professor of dance, what does scholarship and creative activity look like to you? 00:24:33.743 --> 00:24:36.664 Oh. 00:24:36.664 --> 00:24:47.233 And, and one, so in your CV, you also give example, a lot of examples of curated performance processes.And so are those things related? 00:24:47.233 --> 00:29:24.000 They are, for me, but in terms of teaching, I think it relates again to students who find--for our students here--is to find the connection of what dance does for the world and how it is universal. And if it's not, it's because it's being policed, right? By a government that won't allow dance. And like, where are we going now? So the scholarship in dance is about the awareness of what the body can do, like in music or visual art. You know, like we have art history, but we only have dance historians that take it really seriously. And there's tons of books now about dance. But in terms of curation, that's like a separate thing. Yeah. So my own scholarship has been that I've done a lot around--writing about contact improvisation and presenting on that. But I often combine my creative projects with political and historical research. So, for example, a project that was before--that I didn't curate, that I was invited on was like a European project based on a fictional choreographer named Veronika Blumstein. So I ended up spending like two years on that. And then she comes back every now and then, came back during COVID. I was like, okay. Somebody invited me 'cause they were interested in my work with Veronica. And so these Polish and German artists and one person from Slovenia came together in a research project. And they didn't know what to do. And for some reason, at the time, the zeitgeist at the time was a really, like a lot around healing in terms of World War II and the European Holocaust and genocide there. And so, and then the Polish people were so impacted by the war in another way. So this opened up a huge pot of research for me by looking into Veronika Blumstein. And I lived in Europe, but I had never gone into some of my own personal roots. And so I did a lot of ancestral work at the time. And then through that project many things came up because they wrote a fictional--they wrote about a fictional character who happened to be a Jewish woman who escaped and went to New York and studied with all these people that were like part of my own dance lineage. So it became a lineage project. So in that way, I was like weaving together all of these different things. Now, like curation is kind of, I'm, it happens globally, but I know it because I've spent so much time in Europe, like this kind of careful 'cause curation--because they have different funding sources. So in the US, our, the field of dance curation has grown so much and it's--there's so many amazing people doing great projects. But my work in curation, well, I just recently did this Think Gravity Project, which we'll talk about. But I did a big project called the Live Legacy Project. And so I was invited by a former classmate of mine from the school I went to in Holland Center for New Dance Development, which became European Dance Development Center. And we did a whole cultural history on how dance migrated from US and Ukraine, uh, Ukraine--US and the UK through the Dutch school into Germany. So she was living in Germany and the German government gave a huge sum of money to this curation. So we had a symposium that resulted in a film, but we brought together many dance elders and then the younger generation. So it was a big intergenerational project. So we had workshops. So we did everything at the symposium. It wasn't a talking symposium. We had the workshops, intensives alongside the talks, alongside the films. But everybody went to everything. So it wasn't like, I will choose at a conference, it would be like a symposium for a hundred people. And then they came to everything. It was very, very well documented. They all experienced everything together. Yeah. So it's like educational and creative all at once and people got to share their work. Okay. So in that way, like the curation is a way to bring about a living archive. So I'm interested in curation that's very much alive. Does that make sense? 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.222 It does. 00:29:26.222 --> 00:29:35.275 Okay. There's a lot of topics we're we're hitting now, so I hope they're making sense. 00:29:35.275 --> 00:29:47.000 They are. So, you talk, have talked a lot about, you know, previous to this interview about your involvement with Arts and Lectures on campus. 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.809 Yes. 00:29:48.809 --> 00:30:02.505 And so, like a more broad question is what does campus and community service look like in your career over the years? But I know that Arts and Lectures, you know, we talked about as being a substantial-- 00:30:02.505 --> 00:33:42.000 Yes. Well, before I get into Arts and Lectures, what's interesting is I'm flashing now to David Avalos, who was a mentor for me. And, he really helped me when I arrived here, especially with my file, because I, like my service and my scholarship and my teaching all intertwined. And the committees at first didn't really get that. So he had me write this intro and it was really helpful. And so I also share that forward with other people I'm on committees with because it's known now. But even twenty years ago when I was a PhD student, we didn't do a practical PhD. Now there's many practicing dance PhDs. And at the time, one of the most famous godmothers of dance studies, my mentor, Susan Foster, said, Karen, you need to put dancing aside for a while. Get reading, get writing. And I didn't really do that at the time. I still was, I had a very active performing career, and I was curating with a group called Lower Left in San Diego. So it's just like doing way too much. But that's what I did for a large, most of my life. So it's that intertwining of these things that I think is really important. That my service here was always intertwined with my own work in the classroom. Because also, I was performing with students or creating performances with students both at the, in the early years. And it was like, that was my service. I didn't get course release or it wasn't counted as a class, even though I was teaching a class or a project that added another ten hours a week for six to eight weeks. So that's what we do, though. We dance. You gotta make the work. It doesn't fit into a four hour a week class. So my service really got intertwined entwined with dancing. But then I got involved right away because I had been curating in Europe. I had been cur--you know, when I was teaching at the clown school was my first curating. And then I, when I arrived here, I got involved with Bonnie Biggs from the Library, who was running Arts and Lectures, and she invited Mtfiti Imara, Dr. Imara, to do a performance. So that was another big project. He did a--he created a song that was called Power to the People. And I had a group of dancers. It was all extracurricular in our first year. We did a big performance at Center for the Arts in Escondido. It was amazing. And then Bonnie--oh, and then another curatorial thing was happening was Dr. Andrea Liss, who I collaborated with a lot, and Dr. Kristine Diekman. I mean, excuse me. Not Dr. Professor. (Kristine. I love you. You know, it's just as important. what you've done.) Okay. So they were doing a women's rights symposium. So in my second year or my first year--I can't remember, it's in the flyer (points to flyer). It was a really wonderful symposium. So I made a student piece for that, intergenerational. I was on a panel and then I also performed, they invited me. I did this piece in the late nineties called Monster Girl. And it was a very pop piece, feminist piece. And I wore, like, you know, I was standing on a Tide box and doing my soapbox and dancing to Mission Impossible. And it was just like wild. Blue wig-- 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.000 I saw the box up there-- 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:44.882 Oh yeah. Blue wig. Oh-- 00:33:44.882 --> 00:33:45.617 --that says Monster Girl. 00:33:45.617 --> 00:36:43.000 Oh yeah. It has the handcuffs in it, too. I mean, it was just like this kind of rant about women's rights. And so they knew I did the piece. Kristine had actually seen it at Sushi Performance and Visual Arts in '98. So they invited me to perform that. So I kind of came off and running, like performing, early on a lot. I performed a lot less as the years grew on, and I became more administratively driven. So yeah, so that was a curatorial piece. And then Meryl Goldberg picked up Arts and Lectures, and I was on the committee when she was interim. And then she got started in Center ARTES, so I came on and that was a big part of my service for the University. I worked with Marilyn Huerta for many years and for about--I think I was running it for five years. I used to call myself the unofficial Director 'cause they didn't give me that position. That's what--didn't really didn't compensate me. It was just my service, but I can tell you it was more than nine hours a week. And we did between thirty-nine and forty-two events a year for many years. And even the language that's on the website, I'm like, maybe you should update it. No offense (no shade there, Gina, or the committee). Hey, if it's still working, I'm honored. You know, Meryl also came up with some of those, uh, invoke, inspire. So, but I really brought so many performances to this campus. I mean, Dance has always done at least two a year, but I could tell you this year, we got an IRA grant this school year. We did, I don't know, but there must have been--but I have other faculty working with me. So, but Dance Studies probably hosted at least twelve major public events open to the public. So a lot. So it's big. And then my other service to the campus was, I mean, I created the program. I wrote twenty-eight courses. Of course, they're not all offered. There wasn't any, there was a, few courses on the books, and I did keep one called Global Modern Dance, which I think is very sophisticated. Don Funes wrote that when he founded the program. And, I mean, I guess you probably have knew, you already know the history of this program. It started off as an interdisciplinary program, and then there was the desire to branch out into our own disciplines. But there's always been a desire to work cross-disciplinary and interdisciplinary. and Dance always does. We work with theater, we've worked with visual art, we've worked with literature and writing, we've worked with women's studies, we've worked with theater. And so I've done many projects with all of the faculty. I was actually hired as a collaborator that wasn't going--the job description was to be a collaborator. Even though it was for somebody in dance, was to be a collaborator. So I did that. I definitely did that. 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:44.000 Yeah, you did. 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:48.264 Yeah. Am I talking too fast, also? 00:36:48.264 --> 00:36:50.815 I think that you are doing just fine. 00:36:50.815 --> 00:36:55.025 Okay, great. Okay. It's a lot. 00:36:55.025 --> 00:37:13.000 Okay. So you've done a substantial amount of international work, and you talked about your desire to live overseas and not be a tourist. And--but how has that work outside of the United States contributed to your development in the field? And you've already kind of touched on this. But if there's anything else you'd like to say. 00:37:13.000 --> 00:40:30.235 Well, to lift up our campus with the, especially with what's going on right now in the world i--the goal is for us to be global citizens. Isn't that part of our mission still? And so learning about other cultures and living elsewhere gives one that lived experience of intercultural exchange, opens your world perspective. It demands one to be flexible and adaptable. I'm open to new ideas. So it's really enriched my life a lot. And it's given me a lot of empathy, compassion, inspiration, all of those things for ways of being in the world. And, I mean, I've primarily worked in Europe, but I've also--I've been to Mexico a few times on some big projects. And those were really, really wonderful experiences. And because our campus is in, you know, our demographic is so Latinx, that it's really important for me to have firsthand experiences there. So I've traveled personally there, but I've also done artistic project projects there. And it's been an incredible experience. Most recently, I went to Pachuca with Kristine Diekman. And we did an incredible project with sound and movement and electronic art. It was really amazing. So that was so great. And it was based on Day of the Dead. And even though I'm not from that culture, people are super open, and I learned so much at the time. And in fact, my mom had just passed, and so they were like--there were ofrendas everywhere. It was very meaningful for me. I got to learn a lot. So it's like just stepping out of one's, where one's from, you know. So yeah. I mean, I think it's super important and I--really sad to hear that programs like that are in jeopardy right now in our country. 'Cause it's like huge. It's a win-win for everybody. So, but yeah, I've had really amazing experiences overseas. I mean, the school I went to in Holland, we were seventy students from twenty-three countries. So it was on one hand chaotic. But on the other hand, we were from a lot of different cultures, but our language was dance. So we were really in the room together and just, and, you know, there was a lot of nonverbal relational experiences. And so that's where dance comes in as its own language. And it's not a universal language, even though we all have, you know, not all, but many of us, or most of us who are fortunate enough to have our four limbs and or five limbs if you count your spine and your whatever, you know, count many, many limbs. But it was, it was a life changing experience for me. And I had traveled one year. I had traveled in my gap year as well, too. So it was an experience. Yeah. Very big travels (unintelligible). 00:40:30.235 --> 00:40:56.255 Okay. So now turning in earnest to your time at CSUSM--you've been a faculty member on campus for twenty-four years. You already talked about what brought you to CSUSM, but what has been the evolution of CSUSM for you and your time here? For example, what did dance on the campus look like in 2001 compared to now? 00:40:56.255 --> 00:42:50.000 Okay. Yeah. Like I mentioned, I had another offer in Idaho. I mean, I had a lot of interviews, so I was very fortunate for that. I got two offers, and it was kind of like no brainer. It was like, ah, this is just opening. There's so much potential. There were a few courses on the books and they were taught by a lecturer named Terry Sprig, to honor her. She's a dance artist, local. I don't know if she's making work still. So she taught a few classes, but I don't even know to the extent. But as soon as I came in, they gave us, it was, days were different. They were like, okay, you have ten days--they don't tell you us before you get hired--you have ten days to get the courses you want to teach on the books. We're gonna be fast tracking those in in UCC (University Curriculum Committee). I'm like, okay, I don't even know what it's called then. So I wrote some quick courses, and one of the courses I wrote was Women in Performance: Choreographies of Resistance 'cause that really came out of my research and my dissertation. And I did a lot of work on circus when I was in grad school. Even though I did contact improvisation, I did a lot of work on physical culture, the turn of the century, the turn of the 19th to the 20th century. So I got to put that class on the books. I put on a technique class and--but there was like, there was only like three classes. One was Global Modern Dance, which we kept, or was it Cultures in Motion? There was a few. Cultures in Motion we kept, too. Upper division general ed. And then, you know, Bill Bradbury was the chair, and he was like, you need an intro course, so write it. So we like--literally, I'm teaching three courses and then I had to write-- 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000 --this curriculum. All this curriculum. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:49:49.000 Yeah. Yeah. So it was a lot. But now it's, now it's really challenging. It's great. We don't get a lot of allocations because of how the students have a shopping cart and how they, how they go through the system. 'Cause we're still a Dance minor. So when I got here, there were only a couple of classes on the books. And I was offered the opportunity within the first ten days, faculty when we arrived, you jump in, you teach your three courses and you get on a committee and then we'd like you to write the courses you'd like to teach in the next ten days. I'm like, okay. So I did that. I know that one of the courses I wrote was called Women in Performance: Choreographies or Resistance 'cause I was really fresh outta graduate school. This was my research of feminism and performance. And so I taught that class for like twelve years. Really exciting. And it became a general--upper division general ed class. And I'm looking forward to teaching it when I come back FERPing (Faculty Early Retirement Program) actually, 'cause I haven't taught it for a while. And then I put technique classes on the books, and then we all were putting in these intro classes. So I put an Intro to Dance class on the books. I think at that time, it might have been a year or two later. It's hard to remember, but I wrote twenty-eight classes over time.mI am grateful to the Dean's office when Michael McDuffie was there and Ranjita Basu, and Michael gave me great advice on how to create curriculum that would satisfy many things. So I had a lot of topics courses at the beginning and things like that. So, I've also--one of the most popular classes--the program has grown in just so many ways. So we were just me. And then there were me one lecturer. And then at one point there were me and like five or six lecturers. And then it was down to just me and like two lecturers, you know, with the ups and downs of the, of our economy. And now we are just--it's been a wonderful group of people. We're five people. In fact, two of them are, one of them just got their PhD as well from UC Riverside. And another one is getting their PhD, Cuauhtemoc Peranda. And Dava Hernandez just got her degree too. So, and then we have Nhu Nguyen and we have finally got a new hire because that was supposed to be related to the development of our own major. And so after many years, Dance got another tenure track line. And so I'm working with Cheri Hill, doing great job and will be the next leader of Dance Studies. I'm really excited about that. Sheri comes with a lot of experience as a teaching artist, and she's worked in the field of arts and ed and dance and education. So before she came, I had already been working with Liberal Studies and Meryl Goldberg on creating a class that would feed Liberal Studies. So we do actually six courses a year that feed Liberal Studies. So that's great. But it's also, we are losing some of our allocations. So it's hard, but it's great. It's great for the field, it's great for the students. And I'm really excited about the way that's really grown. The other area of the program that's grown is like, the diversity of the kinds of classes we wrote, that I wrote, over the years. So I really tried to--we're not doing, like--we're not doing ballet, modern, and jazz, you know. We had hip hop. It declined. We're gonna have--Cheri just wrote a new course. We're gonna have a wonderful new intro to hip hop class coming on that's related to, it's called Hip Hop Fundamentals. So it'll really meet the criteria of general ed. And then we will learn about the history of hip hop and alongside the commercial aspects so, and the very, the strong politics of the field. So we're really doing a lot. And then I'm really proud of a class that I co-wrote called Contemporary Folklorico. So that course has been on the books for almost ten years now. And I wrote it with Alfonso Cervera, and he was a student over at UC Riverside as well, and now is teaching at Ohio State. Amazing job. Amazing leader in dance in terms of Latinx work. And so that class is one of our most popular classes. We teach five or six sections a year, too. And I'm really proud of that because it really meets our demographic here and serving our Hispanic service--our Hispanic learning institution goals. So I just think it's very important that dance just stays--it's an alive field. So it's also, it's not the course--like there were other institutions where you might go work and they would--at least 20 years ago--they would just hand you the book and they're like, here, teach this dance appreciation class. But I've always been like, no, you teach what you know, I'm gonna trust that you're gonna teach some breadth. So when I hire faculty, I make sure that they can teach the breadth of the field and touch on many things, but they can really focus in on their, on their areas of research. So Cuauhtemoc, for example, is really--their p PhD is on voguing. And so they're really teaching the students like the history of voguing, the roots of voguing, the political significance of voguing. And so it touches on a lot of different things in terms of sociology and political science and history. And so we do all of that. So all of the dance classes have built in a practice-theory component. So there's always something, whether it's just a project that's embodied--so the students step out outside of the box and have to do something physically--that you know, that they're able to do. So it's a very active learning environment in Dance Studies. And that's really different here. And I think school--other schools have grown into that, but I was able to start that off at the ground. And so I'm actually really proud of that. This program really fosters that way of learning. So we're not just like watching a movie, we're gonna, at some point you're gonna get up and either make a movie or do a documentary and step into what the work is. Yeah, so we're moving towards a major. Unfortunately it didn't pass UCC, and Cheri is leading that and I'm working with Cheri on that. And we're looking at it as really like a degree that meets many branches of the field. So we still wanna' be creating and nurturing those that wanna' be dance makers. We're also meeting the field of arts and education, integrative arts and learning, and also social justice. So, we could say that word (unintelligible). Social justice. 00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:50.835 Absolutely. 00:49:50.835 --> 00:49:55.625 Yes. All of those things are a threat today, so-- 00:49:55.625 --> 00:49:55.848 Yeah, of course. 00:49:55.848 --> 00:52:55.000 But that's what we do. And you know I will say like every course that got passed here has the word diversity in it because that's what we do in dance. Dance is a diverse field. And even though I'm a white woman, I mean, from the beginning I always started with Black dance in America because when I taught lower division general ed, because our country is built upon the history of African people. So, dance is so infused with the migrant experience from so many different cultures. So, and then over the years, we have done a few things with American Indian Studies as well. So we're, we're working, we're working it here on our campus. We do a lot of outreach. So whoever we're bringing in is working that way. It's very integrative. So just this semester I'm really proud of a project. Can I say a little bit more about that? In terms of curriculum? So, I always brought guest artists here. And because it's really important for students to meet people working in the field outside of the institution--even though I am working outside of the institution in the summers and in general with my research. But, so I've always brought in guest artists through Arts and Lectures but also through Dance Studies through grants and things like that. So we started off with a very small lab budget, and it's grown. So I have a little line item to bring in guest choreographers. So I've brought in some amazing people. Many of them my teachers. And so those projects really influence the curriculum. So even though we might offer a choreography class, students can take it three times because it'll be different every time. Yeah. And this year, we brought Dancing Through Prison Walls, and it was just a very profound experience. So, I got a nice grant from IRA (Instructionally Related Activities fund) and Arts and Lecturers, and they came, and we did a residency. So again, in terms of like the hours with dance--and I my offer students alternatives if they're working and they can't make it--but they, I always, for the last, before COVID, there were three years and, yeah, three years of artist residency projects. So artists would come and they would either stay with me or friends, or last year we got a little grant money, they could get their own Airbnb. But I put up several artists over the years and they'd make a piece with students and they would leave and then either I or another faculty member would nurture that. And Anya Cloud and I did that for several years together. We did that for three years, where artists would come for a week and then they would leave and then we would rehearse and nurture the piece all the way through the spring dance concert. So yeah. The spring dance concert is our culminating event. Yeah. It's amazing. Very big event. Did I answer your question? 00:52:55.000 --> 00:53:30.304 You did. Okay. So this is a little bit more general, but ,it sounds like, from what you've talked about and your history, that you could have chosen different paths when it comes to dance. Different career paths in terms of what you did with that. Or even back to the high school, right? Like what would've happened if you had gone to the performing arts high school? But you chose a career in higher education. How has that lived up to your expectations? 00:53:30.304 --> 01:03:00.324 Wow. Good question. I have to say I'm super grateful because at least in the U.S., there's not very many jobs in dance. I'm extremely grateful to have a salaried position in the beginning, a pension. So I don't take that lightly. And, yeah. That's big. And there's not that many jobs in dance and higher education. So I feel very, very fortunate that I got this job as well. And that's why when I got it, I mean, I take it very, very seriously. There's a lot of work to be done in the field. And this--I don't even like the word fighters--but everybody working in dance and higher education is, we're fighting for it all 'cause the resources are less and less, unless you're in certain institutions. But it's a lot. It's a lot of work. So I worked really hard, I realized. My mom used to even say--'cause I, when I was chair also of VPA (Visual and Performing Arts) for a year and a half, almost two years. Interim chair. And I would go see my parents on spring break 'cause they're from the East coast. And so I'd bring my computer and my mother would be like, You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. So, yeah, I mean I worked a lot. I worked way more than forty hours a week in this job, like way more. And I don't have any regrets. I'm a little tired, maybe, but I know I'll refuel. Hence retiring a little sooner than I thought I was going to. 'Cause we'll probably get to that question, I imagine. Somewhere along the way. But, you know, our campus has grown a lot, but we all in the School of Arts are working hard. You know, we, how do I say this? Lots of gratitude, but we've all, you know, we've all talked about how we need space, how we need a theater. Our university has grown to a size that we're really ready for--I'm not so fixed on dance has to be in a theater. But we do need a place. So I think dance could grow more and could have grown more had we had a space. So we have a beautiful studio that doubles as a black box theater and we share it with Theater. But that's all we have. So, and then we use--Music, Theater, and Dance share the theater, the performance hall that was designed for music. So that's been hard. And so it's like, it gets to be, I used--I don't even use the expression anymore, but for like five, the last five years, I'm like, broken record. Like, we cannot, how, you know, what do you need? Or, you know, if I'm writing with Cheri, the needs that we'll need to have a major, and just because we write we need space doesn't mean that that should halt the major. We have to keep moving forward. But it's that whole what what comes first. It doesn't really work in today's economy, but dance is more important than ever, I believe. And I think the, our SoCal and our nation's culture around dance has changed so much in positive ways. With social media and many things. I'm like, wow. You know, and when I, you know, there was like ten years where people are like, do you watch Dancing With the Stars? When it came out. And I'm kind of like, no you know, like I don't have time to watch that show. Or, you know, like, oh I'm going to the theater this weekend. Because I'm really into promoting for students live art, live dance. Students, when they go and see a show here, they've never been--so many students.have never been to the theater. And it's like, so I really, I'm so grateful for my parents that I had that experience. And again, we weren't, I was from a very working class family, but it was a priority for my parents. And my mom used to take me to Brooklyn College. So I saw like really traditional, amazing Black dance in America throughout the seventies. I mean, my dance education was really opened by having my grandparents in New York and going in and out of New York. And my mother would just take me to these things that I probably would never have seen before. So, I just think the live art experience is really important, and I think our University could be cultivating that more. So that's an expect--that's one criticism. Like we had a President who called it the crown jewel, and it really is, and it could be more of a cultural hub. So that, but otherwise, you know, like I'm super grateful. It took me a long time to get to the pro--dance program. So I worked for fifteen years just doing what a program director does but not compensated for that. I just built the program because what else was I gonna' do? Everybody else was building around me. So I'm like, okay, well build a program. So I kind of floated around a little bit. So I reported to Visual Arts for a while and, but I was still doing the work of being a director. So it's really my--the art. When we sent things up to CAPC (Curriculum and Academic Policy Committee), there was a year that, my colleagues stood up for me and said, It's now time for dance to get a hire. So, to be a program. And then there was the moment where to get a hire--so I was, dance got ranked finally for a hire--but that took like five years once the School of Arts stood behind dance, moving up the line. So there was just many, many years where I was carrying everything. You know, I had a great colleague in Anya Cloud did a lot, and Cherie Hill is doing an amazing job. And all of the lecturers right now are above and beyond. But I also, and I also give them autonomy to do what they want. First of all, I can't do it all on my own anymore, but it's like, in terms of positionality, you know, we're very, we've got a wide spectrum of cultural identities and ethnic identities in our makeup of our program. And that's really important. And so for me, it's like I need to step aside what other people bring, people who they wanna' bring. Even though we always had conversations, I was kind of carrying it. But that now I'm able to find a little pot of money so that they can get a little stipend for curating something that they wanna' bring. So I'm really--contact improvisation at it's heart is about horizontal politics, so I lead with horizontal politics here. And I always have too much information. I send too many emails after the Dean's meeting, even though they're lecturers, I'd send them what's going on because we're, we say we're small and mighty. So in order for the program to grow, let the young people come forward as well. Though I do believe in intergenerational, but I also believe, you know, let the young people come forward. And Cheri is doing and also she's gonna do a great job. And she's already done so much since she's here. So, I trust that it's gonna carry forward. I don't know in what ways, but I'm open to that. You know, and I think I, I believe and have faith that the School of Arts is in full support of Dance. I have great colleagues. I've done many things, but we're all working really hard so--but it's just a great group of people. It always has been. So what was the question? Has CSUSM lived to my exectations? Well, yeah. I would say yes. And yet we know we really, we do need some more space, and I wish we had more allocations 'cause we can't build the min--we can't build the major unless we get the classes. And then you can't get the classes if you can't offer them. And you can't get, you can't offer them if the students don't sign up for them. So there was that moment where the shopping cart card came forward for students. I don't think that was great. I liked when we used to do--it was a lot of work. And even I didn't have a program I used to advise for Visual and Performing Arts. So I would have my own list. You know, the chair would say, Karen, here's your list. You're gonna advise all these people. Okay, what, what do they need to take? You know, they're visual arts students. But these halls used to be full, lined up, you know, when we'd be registering for classes. So you'd get to really meet the students, but then you would ensure that all these classes are gonna be full. But now the students, it's a different climate, but, you know, I can't change the system, so-- 01:03:00.324 --> 01:03:04.231 Bringing on the technology and you know, having-- 01:03:04.231 --> 01:05:40.445 it's great. But it's also, I think students, they need the advice and the opportunity to sit down with not just advising, but here. I think I'm taking a tangent from the--okay. So I hope, I hope that the, I hope that, yeah. I've also, the other thing that I've done with the curriculum that I've been en enabled to do with some amazing colleagues on our campus is create community engagement projects. I didn't really talk about that, but I did a few highlights. I did-- I started the collaboration with A Step Beyond, and our dean is now on the board, a fairly new dean, Dean Leora Gubkin. And for five years I taught a class over there. So, and that really ties into our dance and education pathway that may or may not grow into directly into that, but it's a great opportunity for students. And Meryl is working with Cheri and other faculty on this big arts and education certification. Arts certification project. So we're really in that already. And then I've gotten a few students jobs over at A Step Beyond. And so that was great. And I worked with Community Engagement. I got a little stipend at one point to work with them and create a course that was specific to working with them called Dance in the Community. That was inspired by Kristine Diekman as well. She did a big video in the community project for many years that always inspired me. She made public service announcements with like, so many underserved communities in our area. And so she's always been like, how do you do that? So she, she lit the way for me, so I wanna' acknowledge her also in this interview. So there was that. And then I did, I worked with Veronica Anover and worked at the Glenner Town Center, which is an Alzheimer's day center. And we did a whole project there. And then I did another fundraiser over at the Conrad Prebys theater in La Jolla. So I've done a few big community projects. I worked with the Museum of--it was called Museum of Man then--at Balboa Park. And I worked with Judy Bauerlein, and we brought guest artists there, and we did big project there. So I think those kinds of experiences for students are so important. 01:05:40.445 --> 01:05:45.172 Yeah. And a lot of like community feelers and outreach. 01:05:45.172 --> 01:06:24.000 Yeah. And bringing community to campus, too. I've brought a lot of community to campus 'cause I brought some well-known artists here. So different schools would come here. I worked with NCHEA (North County Higher Education Alliance) as well for like five years in my early days. And we did some really big projects. We brought legendary Donald McKayle here. He was at UC Irvine. He was already in his late seventies, early eighties when he came. I think it was early eighties. And he was the Alvin Aileys teacher. And so we've done, we've done some big things. I'm sure there will be more big things. Yeah. So to our little campus, we've done some big projects. 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:59.605 That's right. Okay. So this is changing gear a bit. Okay so my, the overarching question is what did you do during Covid? But in our pre-interview you mentioned, you talked about the double pandemic and that the Covid-19 virus increased awareness of systemic racism. So the question really is what did you do during Covid? When we were all kind of locked inside-- 01:06:59.605 --> 01:14:20.635 Well, I did a lot during Covid. I--with the rise of Black Lives Matter and the murder of George Floyd, you know, everything stopped in certain ways. And I immediately, you know--for a moment--and then I immediately gathered with other colleagues in School of Arts, a few of us, we worked the entire summer to create a series. We got some money from the dean's office through some donors, through the Wagner family. And we used all of that money to program online lectures and performances. So that was like a big project. I don't know. We did at least nine, ten events per semester that was open to whole campus. But we really geared it towards School of art students to get them, to get them going. And it was, at that time during COVID, too, there was a HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) project that I worked that Mtifiti Imara invited me to be part of. So I worked with a faculty member.So the artist that we worked with was T. Lang. And we also worked with Melicia Taylor, who's become a friend and collaborator Melicia was a lecturer here in Music. So Melicia was also hired. So these are significant Black artists. Melicia is a sound designer and an opera singer. And Melicia came here and brought compositions. And we did a piece with, I think it was my choreography class. It was choreography or improvisation. We did a dance film called I Am, and the students did their own choreographies at home. And then she worked with a filmmaker to sew it together. So we did a film. I brought another artist. We were still in--well we were just opening--Jose Abad from San Francisco, another Black artist. So I brought a lot of--working with a lot of Black artists to campus. I was doing that. like I said, I've been doing that all along. But it was really a focus on that with HBCU--our campus relationship grew with that. Cheri just did that project this year. So yeah, I was really amazed at that. And we worked with students. We came in even though the campus was on lockdown. We got permission to come in and students got to work with some of these choreographers over Zoom and made their own works. So Skyla Miles and Minnie Atkins both made work, both alum from Dance Studies with, during this HBCU project. Also brought, Mayfield Brooks, who was very known in New York and in Europe and South America, and well, globally, for her work with--she calls it improvising while Black. And she has written a lot and did a lot of projects around Black culture and survival and things. So yeah, it was very, very prolifically busy and happening. And then at the same time, I was gearing up for my sabbatical application. And so even though we were in, still in Covid, I wrote my application to do this project called Think Gravity Dance Tank. So that was really involving--it was happening still during Covid. And we had a symposium and it was taking on the 50th anniversary of contact improvisation. So that's my, it was almost a continuation. It's kind of is a continuation of what I wrote about in my PhD in 2001 about contact not being universalist and who writes the history. So we brought forward some less recognized histories. So Ishmael Houston-Jones was my teacher in Holland way back when, in 1990. No, 1989. 1989. That's his brick (points to brick on window sill). He has a very famous bit called White Hope that he dances with this brick and he's danced with a brick internationally. And he's a very well respected artist. So it was a very creative way to do a curatorial project, where we invited four people, and we let them invite four people. And then we brought students. So Anya Cloud got a job at, in Boulder, University of Colorado. So they have a much bigger facility. So we did it there. And we had a week-long symposium, and we called it a reckoning with contact improvisation. And we stepped back 'cause we're both white women and we let everybody else lead. And, but we held the container and things like that. And then from that, we created a film because we had so much stuff. We had interview, we interviewed everybody, and then we had incredible footage. So we made a documentary. That documentary won best documentary at the Toronto Dance Film Festival. So we were happy with that. Or Contact Festival (Contact Dance International Film Festival) was just recently. And we've screened it in a few places, and it's gotten really good feedback. So it's a bit of a reckoning with the history in terms of who's identified 'cause contact improvisation is historicized as very white. Whereas its influences are very much based in African American culture, history and ways of working in jazz music and things like that. In terms of what is a jam, what is it to improvise. And then also there is a history of Eastern Asian American and Asian art influences in terms of what is yielding, what is gravity, what is meditation. So we brought in other voices to speak about cultural histories and positionality in terms of race and culture. So it was really, it was really productive and it was a deep experience. And it was cool 'cause we brought--I got student success funds from here and Anya got some money from her institution. So we involved, we were about twenty-six people, something like that. Between twenty-four and twenty-eight. But half of them were students. So it was really important to bring the future forward. So again, this was another project that really is based in intergenerational community and containers. And I'm really happy 'cause Makisig Akin is Philippinx and they took the model of curation and they did a whole BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) dance festival in Berlin, probably one of the first or of the first. And they used that model of curation and they were really, really excited that, to learn that way of curating. So there's that curating piece of mine, too, that yeah. People, if nobody curates, then you're not gonna' have the work, you know And we're, it's strong to curate one at a time, but it's also strong to curate symposiums that bring people togetherfor some time. Yeah. 01:14:20.635 --> 01:14:32.795 Okay. So do you have work, a work that you've accomplished in your career that has been most impactful in your opinion? 01:14:32.795 --> 01:14:34.704 Impactful on the field or-- 01:14:34.704 --> 01:14:35.805 To you. 01:14:35.805 --> 01:14:42.104 Oh, to me or to the field? 01:14:42.104 --> 01:14:46.305 Or both. 01:14:46.305 --> 01:16:17.000 Well, in terms of my training, my work with Debra Hay affected my perceptual improvisation very greatly. So Deborah Hay is a, still working artist and dance elder. And I studied with her, I saw her perform in Holland, but I wasn't in her class. And then I brought her with this group Lower Left that I worked with for many years in San Diego. So I've dipped in and out of her work. And I'm really proud that I recently got to perform with her in her work at the Getty. It was a re-dance, a recreation of a work from the sixties. So she was a very significant artist that emerged in the sixties. And she's continued to emerge internationally. So she really had a great impact on my career of how I dance. But I think--I don't know, it's such a hard question. I guess--now I'll get a little emotional because I guess creating the program is probably my biggest impact. I mean, it was a lot of work. 01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:19.000 A lot of work. A lot of really important work. 01:16:19.000 --> 01:19:24.505 I hope University continues to support it. I mean, I think it had the greatest impact 'cause I--thousands of students have taken dance classes here. And I'm sure, because you can read it, some of them was whoa, but most of them always write in the evals, I didn't know dance could be like this, or I didn't know--I just can't imagine that we would talk about dance like this, or dance could be this way or this class--even if I'm not teaching it. But creating a program where the people are invited to teach what they love to teach, to teach what they know and but to also really keep bringing in this idea that we're gonna embody the learning. I think San Marcos is unique like that, and I think the way it's open has and its opening, is pretty unique. And, but I guess, you know, I've, and I've done Summer Arts as well, so I've worked within the system and I did six summers with Summer Arts. I did two as an artist. One was during my hire, one was before my hire. And that program is over. It just got closed. 'Cause one of the biggest things the State of California did for the arts was like, oh my gosh. But I think it's, I guess I never really thought about that when you said is there some favorite work? And I was like, favorite, I mean, you know, Think Gravity was enormous. Veronica was enormous. Live Legacy was enormous. You know? I had a big practice in San Diego with people for seven years. We met every Thursday researching dance, and then I'll show you after on the wall. Lower Left was huge part of my life. Holland, Riverside was huge. But I guess the biggest accomplishment or impact, the greatest impact would be I guess this Wow. I never thought about it like that. When I visited, when I was doing, um, the Deborah Hay work--Deborah Hay is friends with Susan Foster, who's the, who I referred to as the godmother of dance studies. I don't know if she'd like that title, but I'll give it to her. She was like--I went to visit her house. She was like, You did it. She, because I think when they took me into that program, I was a bit of a wild card card 'cause they took a lot of scholars. They didn't--at the time wasn't practicing PhD, but I was dancing, like really committed to dancing and performing still. And so I was a bit of a wild card. I didn't get the, I didn't get the scholarship, you know, the first year. I didn't get the teaching the first year. They took me, but they didn't give me the, they didn't give me the scholarship. And, but I was like, I'm gonna do this anyway and see how I like it. And so that, but she looked at me, she's like, You did it. 'Cause you know, I guess I did, right? There's a program here. So time to let it go to the next people. 01:19:24.505 --> 01:19:26.000 Well, that comes to the last question-- 01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:28.000 --the last question, I imagine-- 01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:29.000 which is-- 01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:30.496 now you got me going. 01:19:30.496 --> 01:19:43.234 Oh it's. We want to, we want to get your feelings in there, too. What do you plan to do both personally and professionally in your retirement? 01:19:43.234 --> 01:23:27.185 Well, the first thing I want to do, and I am doing it, is slowing down a bit. I'm coming off of a season of lot of loss, too, a lot of loss of family. So yeah, I wanna' slow down. So I'm gonna slow down this summer and do some organizing. Continue to clean the office a little bit. And also, um, yeah, do some organizing. And then planning for my fall. I'm gonna go to Austria. I've been invited by my mentor, Donna Ray, who's a top-level Feldenkrais teacher. And she runs the institute in Vienna, the training institute. So I'm gonna' go with, there's a brand-new cohort starting. So I rented myself an apartment overlooking some park in Vienna, and it has a beautiful view of a park. And I'll walk through the park every morning and I, I'll be an assistant in the training. That means I'll be working basically. And I'm hoping that will really hone my skills even more so as I transition into retirement, I'm still gonna' be working. I'm not like retiring. So there's a woman who, as a dance legend, there's just many dance legends, you know, who work into their nineties. It's not like you stop. I really think I will always be working in the field in some way. I don't know what that is yet. I would like to curate in a theater, but they don't have those kinds of spaces in San Diego anymore, where you can just have a studio like that where you can. That's one of the things I would, I could imagine. So I'm gonna' do that and I'm gonna' go to visit a former student who's now a well-known Swiss actress and has a wonderful family. So I'm gonna' stay with her and watch her on the big stage and take a walk in the Alps. And then I'm going to do a vocal training. And it something--it's called Roy Hart. And I studied with them in San Francisco, one of their proteges. It's in a long line of lineage from the thirties and forties. And it's a vocal technique that was used in theater, like experimental theater, in the fifties and sixties. But it's also like, I'll use the word therapy. I'm not afraid of that. It's therapeutic as all art can be therapeutic, healing. Like let's transform. That's what we do in the arts, we transform. So I'm going to study some voice. And then when I come back, I'm already invited--there's a, I used to, I put myself through graduate school as a Pilates trainer, even though I'm not certified at Pilates. But I'm gonna bring Feldenkrais into their Pilates studio and do like a little one night a week class. And then, my friend Anya is up for--Anya and Mcsig are up for a big, NEFA, the New England Foundation of the Arts is one of the few funders that give fairly big money in dance in our country. They're a finalist if they get that they're doing an interdisciplinary dance project. And I guess I'll be performing. So that's the goal. The goal is to keep doing yoga, dance, walk, social activism. And I also like to paint and write. 01:23:27.185 --> 01:23:27.965 Wow. 01:23:27.965 --> 01:23:33.154 We'll see. There'll be a little more time for that. Yeah. 01:23:33.154 --> 01:23:36.994 I love that. You're gonna keep busy. 01:23:36.994 --> 01:23:41.045 Yeah, I'll be busy, but I've also, this summer, I'm gonna slow it down. 01:23:41.045 --> 01:23:51.000 And that's really good, too. So is there anything else you'd like to talk about in this interview? 01:23:51.000 --> 01:25:41.064 I think what I would like to do though is we talked about taking a few photos. And I'm really happy--I guess what I'll say is that I'm really happy that the University's interested in this interview and maybe scanning some of the posters and all things that were presented. Maybe they can even use it to use it as fuel to get a theater or a bigger production venue. Or, or a unit that would like to take care of some of these things so that faculty don't have to do all that work, But I also, I guess I wanna' really honor the founding faculty. Maybe just take a moment. I could close with that. Everybody worked really hard, and I'm really honored to have been part of the upstart. And I hope and believe that our campus will keep on during whatever's going on in the world. And I really hope that the arts can really stay strong here. Yeah. I think we are such an incredible group of artists in the School of Arts, so I just wanna' wish everybody well and to keep on. And I really, I hope that students will--and faculty and committees and the administration will--see really the value of what Dance does. 'Cause dance is really, plays a big role in the world. And like I said, it can be a lot of fun, but it goes way deeper than that. 01:25:41.064 --> 01:25:57.645 Well, that's a really great note to end on. Yeah. Thank you. And I just want to thank you for allowing us to celebrate you and your career and every, all the hard work that you've done all of this time. And I know there's a lot more to come for you, but kind of at this milestone-- 01:25:57.645 --> 01:25:58.354 Thank you. 01:25:58.354 --> 01:26:01.805 --you know, moment for you. Just thank you for sharing with us. 01:26:01.805 --> 01:26:09.234 Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Yeah, thank you. 01:26:09.234 --> 01:29:28.000 There's a few projects that I'd like to highlight that were highly sponsored by the University and that had a great, also had a great impact on my life. And the first one is a project called United and Severed. I think that I will reach for the pamphlet to refresh myself on how important this project was. So I did this with Professor Kristine Diekman, and actually this project was really personal, but I was able to take a very personal experience--this is what artists do if you don't write memoirs, and they take it out into the world. And so it was following my own--I had a very severe traumatic injury while I was employed here. Lived through that. And I stood in as like a surrogate body on film for the topic of that window of time. So it deals with women and traumatic injury and PTSD. So at the time, I was also in close relationship with somebody who is working as a active--not active duty--non-active duty for the military, who was working around soldiers and PTSD and the Afghanistan and Iran and Iraq aftermath. And so Kristine and I looked for alum and students from our school, who were survivors of traumatic injury and how they dealt with it. And so Kim Anderson is--was in it and she was a CSUSM Liberal Studies major. And Ivy Kensinger was a student of mine and also Veronica Anover. She survived a horrific car accident on the way to campus. And turns out she is now a PhD in psychology. So very--came through in a miracle way. And we did a project that was a very poetic representation of movement and understanding disability. So that was featured. And we also worked with Butoh dancers because it was also during the time of some wild fires out in East County. So we took a group of students and we took down a tree from the extremities down to the trunk that was burned. And Richard Keeley is a professor, was a professor at San Diego State--is retired. and Anna O'Cain is a professor, visual art professor, who was working at Miracosta. And we did a huge project together that was featured at Center for the Arts Escondido. So I really wanted to highlight that. It was a very deep project. We have beautiful video footage. Kristine did an incredible job editing. I was sitting alongside her. She pushed all the buttons. Of course, it was really her editing that made the project so spectacular. And our work was featured in many film festivals internationally. So I just really wanted to mention that we have this beautiful artifact from that. And then the other project that I wanted to talk about was, um, wait a minute. 01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:30.315 Your palliative care work. 01:29:30.315 --> 01:30:59.000 Oh, my current work that I will continue when I'm, that I actually have a meeting in ten minutes for, that I'm working with Palliative Care--that's a pilot project--that's run by Michael McDuffie. And I'm working with Ranjita Basu and Andrew Spieldenner. And now we have a cohort of people from the Mindfulness Center working on it. And we're working with Elizabeth Healthcare Center, Elizabeth Hospice Center. And we're doing a once-a-month project on mindfulness. And so I'm bringing in the somatic piece. So really it's been a great, We've been working on that together for about a year and a half. And now we're enacting it over there in Escondido. And next week we'll have our third monthly session, and it will go through the year. So I will be still staying involved as a volunteer for that, while I'm off the books. And so I'm very happy to be doing practical applications in different fields. And that connects as I interweave everything that I've said today, that you know, that what I do with dance and what I believe dance can do in the world has a great impact because we're working with the body and compassionate empathy. We all have a body. We're always moving, even if it's, we're just, we're down to the breath. Breath is movement. And so with that, I'll just take a breath and say thank you. 01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:00.000 Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-084 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kevin Cole OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Cole, Kevin. Interview November 28. 2012 WAHA-03 00:39:51 HIST-01 CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories CSUSM This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. csusm United States. Marine Corps ; September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; United States. Marine Corps--Recruiting and enlistment ; USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Kevin Cole ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/67729db2171d7e702b46743f60168566.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history of Kevin Cole, recorded November 28, 2012, for the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project by the California State University San Marcos History Department. Cole begins his interview by discussing his family background as coming from an Irish Catholic immigrant family located in Lynn Massachusetts, and the role his civic-oriented family played in his and his brothers’ enlistment with the United States Marine Corps. Cole also briefly describes his brothers’ experiences in the Marines. Lynn (Mass.) ; Irish Catholic immigrants ; public service ; Marine Corps ; Mayor (Lynn, Mass.) ; fire crash rescue ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) 0 251 College experience, enlistment, and bootcamp Cole recounts his journey to enlistment in the Marine Corps, including dropping out of UMass Amherst and a short stint in community college, before attending bootcamp at Parris Island, South Carolina. UMass Amherst ; Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD) ; bootcamp 0 400 Becoming a Marine Corps Rifleman Cole explains his decision to enlist with Marine Corps Infantry and describes his occupational specialty (O311), including the on-the-job training that is required to be a Rifleman and the knowledge and skills required. Cole also briefly discusses his parent unit for the entirety of his Marine Corps career, the 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, and the two-year cycle that being a Marine entails, including a six-month deployment aboard the USS Tarawa and some of the training and work that entailed. Cole also goes into detail about the experience of visiting foreign cultures and the humanitarian service side of his work. Marine Corps Infantry ; Rifleman ; O311 ; Light Armored Reconnaissance ; Marine Expeditionary Unit ; Delta Company ; 2-year cycle ; USS Tarawa ; Darwin, Australia ; Hawaii ; Thailand ; Guam ; Philippines ; Middle East ; East Timor 0 1050 Bombing of the USS Cole, ship life, downtime Cole recounts being deployed when the USS Cole, and his involvement in security and patrolling the bombing site and cleanup efforts when the USS Tarawa was dispatched to provide support. Cole also remembers his deployments aboard US naval vessels and the difficulties of ship life, and the work of a Rifleman continuing during downtime. USS Cole ; Gulf of Aden ; Indian Ocean ; downtime ; USS Tarawa ; Persian Gulf ; ship life ; Camp Doha 0 1389 September 11, 2001 and reenlistment Cole recounts learning of the 9/11 terrorist attack, which happened in the interim between his first and second deployment, while he was training at “29 Palms” (Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (MCAGCC)) during a combined arms exercise. Cole also remembers breaking up with his girlfriend in the wake of the attack. Cole reminisces about the state of technology at that time and the lack of media available to him about the attack while he was training, and the scarcity of instantaneous communication while deployed. Cole also discusses the clarifying incident that led to him reenlisting with the Marines, and how public sentiment towards members of the armed services changed after the USS Cole bombing and 9/11. 9/11 ; 29 Palms (Calf.) ; Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (MCAGCC) ; USS Mount Vernon 0 2110 Second deployment Cole describes his second deployment, this time aboard the USS Mount Vernon, including the places he went and the training he undertook, as well as an attack on the Marines in Kuwait. Cole also recounts refusing orders to go to recruiting school so that he could be deployed alongside his unit in Iraq, January 2003. USS Mount Vernon ; Darwin, Australia ; Camp Doha ; Kuwait ; terrorist attack ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Singapore ; Guam ; Thailand ; East Timor 0 Kevin Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11.&#13 ; &#13 ; This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:06.474 --> 00:00:50.871 My name's Kevin Cole, and I was born in Lynn, Massachusetts in 1977 to a Irish Catholic immigrant family. Um, my mother was from London, my dad, from the city of Lynn, which is just north of Boston. And I was the third of three brothers. I come from a family that is very kind of--a family that's very civic-minded or civic-oriented. My dad's side of the family in particular, has a lot of service, um, in the family, a lot of military service, a lot of public servants. Maybe that's the Irish heritage too, I don't know. But a lot of firefighters and cops. And the bulk of my family is still in the Boston area. 00:00:50.871 --> 00:02:06.734 My grandfather was an attorney in the, uh, United States Army. He served from, I wanna say, '40 to '44, somewhere in there. because when he got back from World War II, he served as a politician as well. He was a state senator in Massachusetts. And he was also the mayor of my hometown, which is a pretty big city outside of Boston, just north of Boston. I know he had brothers who were also in the military. I know my uncle Joe, my dad's Uncle Joe was in the Marine Corps for many years. And I had another, um, great uncle who also served in the Marine Corps. He was a colonel in the Marine Corps as well. My dad and his brother didn't serve in the military, but they were public school teachers. They both served as public school educators in the elementary schools. I think between the two of 'em, they had like seventy-five, seventy-four years of teaching service. My dad was a teacher in the Lynn Public School System in Massachusetts for forty years. And my mom and dad had three sons, um, still have three sons and all three served in the military. 00:02:06.734 --> 00:03:08.675 And I can remember as a kid growing up in Massachusetts, knowing my cousin who's the firefighter, and my uncle who's the firefighter, and, you know, other cousins who were cops and served in the military and uncles and aunts who served in the military, it was kind of a no-brainer when I was a little kid. I can remember dressing up as a Army Ranger for Halloween. And it was kind of a theme in my family. All three of the boys always talked about joining the military. My eldest brother Mike graduated from high school and kind of piddled around for a few months, and then enlisted in the Marine Corps. He was a firefighter in the Marine Corps from 1991 to 1996. And he served in a fire crash rescue department in Camp Pendleton. He served on the runway, and he's what most Marines would commonly refer to as a pope. He was a personnel other than grunt. So he wasn't a trigger puller. He actually learned a skill while he was in the Marines. 00:03:08.675 --> 00:03:39.000 It's not to say I didn't learn skills in the infantry or my other brother Pat. We both learned skills, certainly, but they don't translate well to the outside unless you want to become a cop or a SWAT team member or something along those lines. So my eldest brother Mike, served for five years. He did deploy on one occasion. He deployed to Somalia with the Marine Expeditionary Unit, sometime in early 1993 prior to the whole Black Hawk down scenario. That played out later in that year. 00:03:39.000 --> 00:04:11.444 My brother Pat also served in the Marine Corps. He enlisted in 1992, and he served for, I think just a little over four years. He was stationed primarily in Okinawa. I think he was there for three years. And he, as I said before, he was an infantry Marine. He served in the Marine Corps infantry as a reconnaissance Marine. He served, um, he served as a reconnaissance Marine for I want to say almost the entire time he was in. So he was in the infantry the whole time. 00:04:11.444 --> 00:05:29.725 And then finally the third of three sons. I enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1998. I had graduated from high school in 1996 and attended UMass Amherst for a year. And then I dropped out, mostly due to poor grades. I--I think a big part of it was that I didn't have the discipline as a student that I earned over many years in the Marines. So in 1996 when I graduated, um, went straight away to college at UMass, which was just far enough away from home to dorm and just close enough that I could drive back on the weekends if I wanted to. And so I wanted to get out of the hou--out of my parents' house. And so I went to UMass, but it didn't really work out. And so I went to community college in Massachusetts for a year part-time. And it was at that time that I met a couple of Marine Corps recruiters, and I wound up enlisting in the Marines in the summer of '98. I signed my papers on June 30th, '98, and went to bootcamp at Parris Island, South Carolina, um, MCRD, Parris Island, October 18th of '98. 00:05:29.725 --> 00:06:40.562 So I left for bootcamp. And I can remember going there and because I was an Eagle Scout, kind of a cool thing the military does, if you're an Eagle Scout, they give you a rank. They figure that you have some leadership skills. So they--you get an automatic promotion when you enlist. At least they did it that time. I think they still do it now, but I'm not certain. But regardless, I was made a private first class right when I signed the paperwork. And I went to bootcamp, and I can remember my dad saying to me, "you're the type of kid that you're either gonna wash out or you're gonna graduate from bootcamp, you know, at the top of your class." And so I went to Parris Island in October of '98. I graduated from bootcamp. I graduated a private first class. I was among the leaders of the group. Probably narrowly missed out on a promotion. But I think I gained quite a bit from bootcamp. It was a good experience for me. I got into shape and I certainly started learning discipline. But it was a process over many years that led me to being a disciplined Marine. 00:06:40.562 --> 00:08:06.824 So after bootcamp in Parris Island, um, I went to Camp Geiger, North Carolina for School of Infantry. I had enlisted as an infantry Marine despite the objections of my recruiters, I had scored really well on the ASVAB, the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. It's the entrance exam you have to take to enlist in the military. Actually, to enter the military, you have to take this exam. And I scored really, really highly on it. In fact, I scored so highly that the Marine Corps said, you can take whatever job you want, um, and do whatever you want in the military. But there were certain job fields that encompassed many different jobs. And the one I really wanted to do was what my older brother Michael had done. He had served in a fire crash rescue, and I wanted to do the same thing. I thought being a firefighter was cool. Again, it kind of goes back to that family tradition of civil service. And so that is what I wanted. But the recruiter told me that he couldn't guarantee me a specific job. He could only guarantee me a specific job field. And that field that included fire crash rescue also included all air supporting duties. And some of 'em were just horrific. I remember Air Traffic Controller was the one that jumped out at me, and I thought there's no way I can sit in front of a computer screen for the next four years. 00:08:06.824 --> 00:09:30.595 And so, despite the recruiter's objections, I enlisted infantry knowing that all the fields are so closely related, at least I'm gonna get to do what I want to do. And so I enlisted in the infantry. My military occupational specialty is called O311. It's the Infantry Family, O3, and 11 is the designation for a rifleman. It's the most basic Marine there really is. Of course, I say most basic, and it doesn't mean--it doesn't mean elementary. It doesn't mean not as advanced. It just means that that's kind of the baseline for all Marines. And when you become a Marine Corps Rifleman, you then go on to learn a whole lot more. There's a lot more OJT, on-the-job training that comes with being in the Marine Corps Infantry. Whereas with a lot of specialty jobs like fire crash rescue or air traffic control, whatever, the initial schooling is a lot greater. Of course, there's still a certain degree of on-the-job training, but, with the Marine Corps Infantry, you really never, ever, ever stop learning. I can remember my last year in the Marines, after having served for over eight years in the Marine Corps, serving the infantry the entire time, I was still learning new things. 00:09:30.595 --> 00:10:59.514 So I think people kind of jokingly refer to as Marine Infantrymen as grunts, because that's all they do, and they don't really learn too much. But actually the knowledge that a Marine Corps Infantryman has is significant. And it doesn't come easily. It's not an easy job. So when I say basic, in terms of Marine Corps Rifleman being the basic Marine, they're actually pretty advanced, as far as intelligence, because they have to learn so much. Um, so I went to Camp Geiger. I went to School of Infantry there for the, O311 school, and I can't remember how long it was. I remember it started in January, I wanna say January 25th, 1999, and ended probably sometime in March. I think I checked into my parent unit at Camp Pendleton in the end of March. March 21st, 2000--excuse me, March 21st, 1999 was when I checked in with the 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion. Uh, they're stationed in Camp Pendleton. And it's a mechanized infantry unit that provides forward reconnaissance. So it's a, it's an infantry force, but it's also a reconnaissance force. So I checked in there March of '99, and I served with that unit as my parent unit for the entire length of my Marine Corps career, until I was discharged, honorably on March the first, 2007. 00:10:59.514 --> 00:11:15.000 So I served in the same unit for just a little under eight years, plus four or five months of schooling, was my total time in service. 00:11:15.000 --> 00:12:24.215 So after checking in with first LAR (Light Armored Reconnaissance), I learned the pattern of an infantry Marine. Their cycle is such that when you join the infantry or any deploying unit for that matter, you're guaranteed somewhat of a certain cycle that follows a two year--a two year pattern. And so the two years is broken up into four, six-month pieces. The first six of which is a training cycle, which is when I joined my unit. I joined during the training cycle, and then after the six month training cycle within your unit, you then are tasked with a larger joint unit, and that unit becomes the Marine Expeditionary Unit. And so when I was with Delta Company, first, LAR, that unit was then chopped out of our parent unit and placed with a larger battalion landing team. I think it was 3-1 on my first deployment. And we spent six months training as Delta Company. And then our company moved and attached to the battalion landing team, 3rd battalion, 1st Marines, and we trained as a larger combined unit for six months. 00:12:24.215 --> 00:14:14.000 So that's the first year of the cycle. Then the second year of the cycle, the first six months is when you actually deploy. So you spend six months training as a unit. You spend six months training with the collective, a greater unit, and then you spend six months deployed. My first deployment at that time, it was prior to, uh, you know, war. It was in 2000 and September 11th hadn't happened yet. And we deployed on a normal Marine Corps pattern. So we did six months of training, six months of working up training with the larger group, and then six months deployed. My first six months as I said, was on the USS Tarawa, um, which is a pretty large ship. And we went out with the Marine Expeditionary Unit, with the battalion landing team, and we traveled by ship from San Diego to Hawaii. And then from Hawaii, we really went all over the place. Some of the ports we hit were, in Australia, we ported in Darwin, and we had the opportunity to train with the Australian Army there, the 2nd cavalry regiment, which drove--utilized the vehicles similar to the light armor reconnaissance vehicles, the LAVs that we used. Um, but we had an opportunity to train with many units. We did lots of training in Hawaii, we did training in Darwin on a couple of occasions. We trained in Singapore. We--I'm sorry, we didn't train in Singapore, we trained in Thailand. Um, but during the six months at sea on ship, we made several port ports of call. And during those times, some were for work, but some were for liberty. And so we would get free time. Singapore was one example where we got lots of free time. I think we probably spent ten days there, five days on the way out and five days on the way back. 00:14:14.000 --> 00:15:27.914 And when I say on the way out, I mean to the Middle East. It was certainly a hotspot at the time in the late nineties. So we were--we were always cognizant as Marines that there were places in the world that were danger zones. And in fact, the Middle East is a tax free zone for that purpose. It's considered a hazardous duty. And so servicemen and women who serve in that region don't pay taxes. I don't know why, but regardless, it was more pay for us. So that was nice. But the destination of deployments at that time was to the Middle East. And so we would leave San Diego and go to the Middle East and come back, and we would make that a six-month trip. And in doing so, we would stop at many ports of call. So Thailand was one example. Singapore, Guam, the Philippines, we stopped at a lot of different places. I had the opportunity to go to Seychelles, which was like, amazing. Learned how to dive there. It was pretty cool. Um, but at the same time, there's a lot of work involved as well. We, we went to, whoa! (room light turns off) 00:15:27.914 --> 00:16:12.315 So we were able to go to many different ports of call for training purposes, but also for free time purposes, which was really nice. It was the opportunity to see the world, which was cool. Which it--it wasn't why I joined the military. I think I honestly ultimately joined the Marine Corps out of a sense of civic duty. And it ended up being the Marines out of, I guess, pride. But there were a lot of Marines in my family at the time. Of course my two older brothers were both Marines. Um, they had both just been recently discharged. But I think part of it was a, certainly a sense of civic pride and a duty, kind of a sense of an obligation to give back to the country that's been really good to my family, who, as I said, were immigrants. 00:16:12.315 --> 00:16:50.044 So, going overseas and deploying to a different hostile--different hotspots at the time, they weren't quite hostile until later, was an amazing experience. To visit foreign cultures and do a lot of good--in different ways--providing medical services in East Timor was a great one. We earned a--my unit collectively earned a humanitarian service medal on a couple of occasions for going to East Timor and helping a really severely impoverished country. 00:16:50.044 --> 00:17:30.315 But we also had opportunities to do, you know, help build schools and paint houses and lots of neat stuff like that. The service abroad was not just, go to Iraq, go to Afghanistan and start, you know, being a bully. It was an opportunity to do humanitarian work. In fact a significant portion of my time spent in Iraq in 2003 was actually giving out food, giving out food. Giving out water, medical aid to people. That's certainly some of the things that I remember fondly from my service in Iraq. 00:17:30.315 --> 00:19:06.000 But going overseas on my first deployment on the USS Tarawa, the threat of war is something that's always in the back of a mind, the mind of a Marine, especially one in the infantry who fires a gun almost every day and learns how to employ weapons of warfare. So it was a shock to me, but not a total shock when the USS Cole was bombed. I was deployed, I was onboard the USS Tarawa at the time when the USS Cole was bombed. In fact, I believe we were in the Persian Gulf. And when the Tara--excuse me, when the USS Cole was bombed in the Gulf of Aden--I think it was the Gulf of Aden--we, you know, did 180-degree return and sailed south from the Gulf. And I believe we were on scene the next day. We provided security operations, uh, Zodiac patrols. Zodiacs are the small boats you see in movies. We provided security patrols via those small boats. We also, uh, the ship, as I said, the Tarawa was a big ship, so we provided a base of operations for the investigation team that was there. I believe they were members of the FBI. I'm not certain, um, or might have even been the CIA, I don't know. But there were guys wearing suits and they were investigating the USS Cole bombing. And so we were there onsite for that. And that was really, um, I don't wanna say it was a wake up call because it wasn't a shock, but it was a surprise that a terrorist attack had occurred. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:21:26.324 Regardless, we continued with our deployment after the area had been secured in the USS Cole was then, taken over by another crew and I believe it was floated back to the United States on a huge cargo ship. We continued on with our mission, which as I said, was to go to the Middle East, to do some training in the Middle East to be a part of the Fifth Fleet and to monitor activities in the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf area. And so we went to camp Doha in Kuwait and did some training in Kuwait, for, I don't know, probably a month? Two to four weeks. Anyway. And while we were there, we were doing training exercises, and it was always, uh, everything we did was always a preparation for war. It's really--it's a reality. And it's funny because--it's funny--it's strange because as young Marines, you are taught and you perform so much in preparation for war, that when it comes, it's not a surprise, it's not a shock. And for the most part, you're ready for it. So we, we conducted our deployment. We did our training in Camp Doha, and we came back to the States. Um, we spent, I think, six months to the day on board the USS Tarawa. We'd also spent some time ashore of course doing some training and stuff, but for the most part, it was ship life, which it isn't, uh, it isn't very fun. It isn't very fun at all. It seemed like on both my deployments via US Naval vessel, both times in the middle of the Indian Ocean, in the middle of summer, when it's 120 degrees out, the air conditioner breaks in the berthing area, which is the room where, um, which is a quarters on board the ship where Marines and Sailors sleep. It seemed like it didn't fail that the air conditioner would break at some point during the deployment and make the inside of the ship, you know, 150 degrees. And I can remember many, many hot nights sleeping on the flight deck, which is probably frowned upon now, I would imagine. But at the time, it wasn't that big a deal 00:21:26.324 --> 00:23:09.000 Regardless, we came back, I wanna say in February of 2000. I wanna say February of 2000, or, yeah--February of 2000 is when we came back from my first deployment. I believe it was with the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit, but it might have been the 11th, because I always get 'em confused. The next time I went out was about a year and a half later, and I went out with the other one. This time it was with Battalion Landing Team 2/1, which is 2nd Marines, excuse me, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marines. And with 2/1, we did the same cycle again. So it's the six months of training, six months of training as a combined unit, six months of deployment on ship, and then you get six months of downtime where there are a lot of three and four-day weekends. Sometimes. They're--you're supposed to get a lot of three and four day weekends. It doesn't always work out that way. Um, but after our six months of downtime, which we did get, we went right back into training phase again, and an Infantry Marine trains all the time. You shoot your gun all the time, you clean your gun all the time. We had large vehicles to take care of being in a mechanized in mechanized infantry unit. We had vehicles to clean, to maintain, to test and to push to the limit to ensure that we could do so again in a time of crisis, which of course, proved relevant. Regardless, my second deployment came in 2002 after training some more and training with the Battalion Landing Team again, we then deployed in June of 2002. 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:56.825 Now, in the interim, September 11th had happened, and I remember September 11th, pretty vividly, only because I was--I mean, I'm sure I'd remember it vividly either way, but I remember it, I remember the moment for me when a corporal I was serving with came up to me and told me a plane crashed into the Twin Towers. And then he said, and you know, half an hour ago, another plane crashed into the other tower. And at the time, we were training in 29 Palms. We had been in 29 Palms for several weeks. We were doing a combined arms exercise. So it was a lot of different moving parts, a lot of units. In fact, I think it was one of the biggest combined armed exercises that 29 Palms had seen in a while. And that was saying a lot because it's one of the biggest bases, it's my understanding it's the largest impact area. 00:23:56.825 --> 00:25:22.000 So there's the largest training ground where you can fire weapons. And they often have combined armed exercises that have, you know, five, ten thousand Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, et cetera tied to them. This was one of the larger combined armed exercises that 29 Palms had conducted. And I don't know how many thousands of Marines were there working in cooperation during this training exercise, but it was significant. It was a lot. And when September 11th happened, I remember calling home, and I had a, I had a girlfriend at the time back in Massachusetts where I'm originally from, and I can remember calling her the next day and telling her this, you know, our relationship isn't gonna work anymore. And it was not a hard decision for me at all. I remember she kind of got upset and said, "What are you talking about? You know, you're gonna break up with me over the phone." And I said, "You know what?" I said, "I am serving my country and I can't afford to be tied to anything but the Marine Corps. I'm married to the Marine Corps, essentially." And I can remember it wasn't a tough decision. I just felt it incumbent upon me as a citizen of this country to continue to serve to the best of my ability and to eliminate any distractions. And I don't think it was right then that I had decided to reenlist, but it was a short time later. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:26:40.815 I remember September 11th, you know, it all went down and we continued our training cycle. We were scheduled to be in 29 Palms for several more weeks, and we stayed. So we didn't have access to TV at the time. You know, it was 2001. I remember I was a squad leader of a group of fifteen to twenty men, and I think seven of us had cell phones. Six or seven of us had cell phones, the other guys didn't have cell phones. It's important to consider that as the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the conflicts that have arisen in the 2000s, as they have progressed, technology has advanced in such a way that it blows people's minds when I tell them, you know, when I served in Iraq, there were no cell phones. You couldn't just pull a phone out of your pocket in 2003 and call your mom in Boston. It just wasn't possible. Phones weren't capable of doing that. And if they were, I sure didn't have one. And they were probably way too expensive. I remember we had one or two reporters who were tasked to our unit in Iraq, and they had phones that were capable of calling the United States. I got to call home once in 2003. One time I got to call home and talk to my, I think, my brother, for about five minutes. And that was it. That was it. That was it. 00:26:40.815 --> 00:27:08.055 So I think it's important to recognize that technology has advanced in such a way that when I say to people, only seven guys out of, you know, fifteen to twenty had cell phones, they say, what? This was a time, Skype hadn't been invented, MacBooks and Apple was, was still a significant, um, significantly struggling, I should say. Technology wasn't advanced to the point where it is now. 00:27:08.055 --> 00:28:25.765 And so when September 11th happened, I can remember we had one guy in my unit who was from New York State. He was just a little ways away from New York. And I remember he used my phone to call home and make sure his family was okay. And they were, but I can remember the impact of September 11th happening on us as Marines wasn't as significant as it was to the common citizen. Um, I think because of our military training, I think because of our military mindset, because we were in the infantry, it was kind of like, wow. But it wasn't a total shock. It was shocking that somebody was able to attack our country so boldly, so blatantly. But I don't think it really surprised or scared any of us. I think it--in the infantry, we can't be scared because of our training and our training is very important and very thorough, and it prepares us for things like that. Certainly, it doesn't prepare you for a plane flying into a building, but at the same time, the shock factor wasn't as big for us as Marines. 00:28:25.765 --> 00:30:49.375 And so after September 11th happened, we had to continue to train. We were still in 29 Palms. We still had a couple of weeks there. I think we spent probably three more weeks in 29 Palms. So much time in fact, that when we got back to Camp Pendleton, the video footage of the attack on the Twin Towers was gone. They had already removed it from the news reels. So for the most part, all we saw was still images. I saw a few small videos, but I didn't see what everybody else saw on September 11th, because I was training, I was out in the field. I didn't have access to a TV. I didn't have a smartphone where you could watch the news. In fact, in 2003 when we deployed to Iraq, we heard the news probably three times, BBC. But it was one of the biggest aspects of coming home that was fearful to me. People often ask me, were you scared in Iraq? And I said, no, never. I was scared when I got on the plane and was about halfway back to the United States, though, because I didn't know what people were gonna think of me. Technology hadn't caught up to that point to, like it is today where soldiers in the field can actually get in front of a computer and Skype home and read their kid a bedtime story. That is new technology that we weren't privy to. And so when September 11th occurred, and we were in 29 Palms, it was certainly shocking to us. But I think it was later that I made the decision to reenlist, because later in the year, we were coming back from a large exercise in the cold weather training facility up by Bishop California. And when we were on our way back, I can remember somebody had. in my vehicle had wired a little FM radio to our intercom system so we could actually hear the news. So we could actually hear the news. And we actually got to hear a local station come on and say, you know, soldiers in, in their big tanks are gonna be driving down Main Street any minute, go out and, and, and wave to the soldiers. 00:30:49.375 --> 00:32:27.865 And I can remember driving through the small town California and seeing kids running out of a schoolhouse to line the sidewalk and wave and cheer for us. And it was very, um, it was very--it was very special. It was very special to receive that kind of support because I had never seen it before. And when I talked to servicemen and women today about the support we had and the support we didn't have while serving from society, they're kind of shocked when I tell 'em about my first few years in the Marines when Marines were kind of frowned upon. They weren't well liked. They were--Marines were underfoot, there were too many of 'em. Um, I can remember going into a couple of bars, nightclubs in North Carolina when I was in School of Infantry and being told, "Hey, Marines aren't allowed in this bar. You need to go somewhere else." And that was okay. You know, that nowadays you hear that somebody isn't supporting the military and whoa, go to another country. Um, but at that time, it wasn't cool to be a Marine. It wasn't cool to be in the service. And so to see that transition, probably right after the USS Cole was bombed, certainly at September 11th, to see that transition of servicemen are kind of frowned upon to, wow, I want my daughter to date a Marine. Um, and I don't know if it's ever actually gone that far, but certainly better than Marines aren't allowed in this bar. 00:32:27.865 --> 00:34:09.000 And I think it was driving through those small towns and watching kids wave and people come out, I can remember thinking, and maybe even saying over the intercom of my vehicle, "Hey guys, this is why we're here." And I remember thinking in my head, this is why I'm serving my country, to provide freedom, and to provide security for our people. And to see that threatened was--it was horrifying. But as I said, it wasn't shocking. I think the shock value of it was lessened on us as Marines. But regardless, to see an outpouring of public support for the military and to see the public really at that time transitioned from a, eh, I don't know how I feel about the military to wow, I love our military. It was definitely special. And at some point in there, I decided to reenlist. Each of my older brothers served one enlistment. My older brother Mike served for five years. My brother Pat served a little over four, but I made a decision to reenlist partly based upon September 11th, partly based upon the type of support we got as servicemen and women from the American public. But I think a big part of it too, was, again, it kind of fell back to this civic duty, this sense of obligation I felt, that was kind of inborn in me as a kid. I felt that my duty was not yet done. 00:34:09.000 --> 00:35:10.656 And further, when we got back from 29 Palms, when we got back from--when we got back from, uh, the training exercise in the cold weather warfare, I can remember I was pretty close to getting out of the Marines at that time. I had a few months left in the Marine Corps in my first enlistment. And I remember one of my commanders saying, we're gonna need volunteers to go back out on a second deployment because we're short. And me and probably three or four other guys--me and probably three or four other guys volunteered to go back out with Delta Company first LAR again. And that was when we deployed on the (USS) Mount Vernon, in 2002. We did another six month deployment. We did another six months training, six months of training with the combined group, and then a six month deployment and returned home on December 15th, 2002. 00:35:10.656 --> 00:36:33.934 Now, that deployment was a little bit different than the first. I can recall that somebody was retiring. I believe it was the admiral, or someone high ranking was retiring. And so he wanted to go to some of the nice places on our deployment. That was the rumor. I don't know if it was true. But regardless, we seemed to be going to a lot of nice ports of call. We went to Darwin, we went to Singapore, we went to Guam, we went to Thailand. We went to Thailand, we went to East Timor, which was kind of typical in the training cycle at that time, doing some humanitarian efforts there. We also went to, I believe we went to Seychelles on that deployment. So we hit a lot of cool, cool places to go, a lot of good places to go and enjoy ourselves, to, you know, go on the beach to surf, to dive. But we also did some significant training. And it was there in Camp Doha when we were out in an impact area training, we received word that one of the units at assigned to the Battalion Landing Team had been attacked in Kuwait. And I don't remember if one Marine was killed and one Marine was wounded, or if two Marines were killed. I think it was two Marines were killed. And it was a terrorist attack. It was kind of this truck full of guys drove by and fired into a group of Marines who were doing some training, and one or two were killed. 00:36:33.934 --> 00:38:16.485 And that was kind of shocking because we were a forward force at the time. We were, you know, not out there in a peaceful manner. We were out there doing training, firing guns, having a live fire exercise in Kuwait, in Northern Kuwait. And we were attacked. And I remember that really kind of set the tone. When we were on our way back, we already knew that something was going down soon. And I remember I had extended my contract by four or five months to deploy on the second occasion. And when we got back from deployment, I remember I was told--uh, I reenlisted during deployment. I remember I was told, we're gonna need you, Sergeant Cole to go to recruiting school. And I can remember saying, no, I'm not going to recruiting school. You're crazy. My unit's getting ready to go overseas again. And we returned on December 15th, and between December 15th and I think January 6th, I refused orders to go to recruiting school, got like a reprimand. Um, mainly for the fact that the sergeant who was gonna replace me--I didn't trust him with my Marines. Period. I didn't trust him with my Marines. And I felt that if somebody was gonna continue to lead my platoon, it should be me and not somebody they don't know. So for those reasons, I denied my orders and was reprimanded and deployed to Iraq. 00:38:16.485 --> 00:39:31.945 So we deployed to Iraq in January, 2003. We had just come back from deployment on a--on the USS Mount Vernon. And a month later we were on a plane from March Air (Reserve) Base flying back to Iraq. We landed in Kuwait in, I don't know, mid-January 2003. And at that point, we were all aware that danger was imminent. Um, period. We knew what we were there to do. But in the back of our minds, we were all told, you know, this is a military engagement certainly, but it is also a significant humanitarian effort. We're going to relieve people who are being oppressed. And we were given humanitarian food. We were given extra water, extra food that we could give out. All of our Navy Corpsmen were instructed to give out medical aid as necessary and as able, um, without it being detrimental to the Marines they were serving with. And so we knew that was definitely gonna be a part of our mission. 00:39:31.945 --> 00:39:51.445 So when we arrived in Kuwait, again, we went right back into training and preparing. We had many different missions that we were, um, that we were tasked with. I'll get to that another time 'cause I gotta go. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.xml ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/4/resources/55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cole, Kevin. Interview November 28, 2012 Description An account of the resource Kevin Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-03 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps -- Recruiting and enlistment USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kevin Cole Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lynn (Mass.) Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> CSUSM Veterans Voices Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/84b4d291425238d1a6b1ad8321a41775.pdf 03077269591f47c6d5239cd22e9b9ad9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cole, Kevin. Interview transcript, November 28, 2012 Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral history interview with Kevin Cole. Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kevin Cole Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-28 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 United States. Marine Corps USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lynn (Mass.) Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text CSUSM Veterans Voices Veteran experience