13 10 181 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/71c8b4f9523f7776b3f38bb8961109e4.pdf 7d8200db0e9bea2a86b937c5c65a7c28 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wheeler, Lucy. Interview transcript, April 28, 2023. Description An account of the resource Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." This interview was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy Wheeler Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tanis Brown Charlie Colladay Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Subject The topic of the resource Adult students Education, Higher Family farms -- California Oral history Photography Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy Wheeler License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-045 Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lynda Cull OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CullLynda_DownieJudith_2017-05-11.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. San Diego brewing;women in brewing;home brewing;brewing industry;craft brewing OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Cull, Lynda. Interview May 11th, 2017. SC027-068 00:40:01 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm San Diego brewing ; women in brewing ; home brewing ; brewing industry ; craft brewing Lynda Cull Judith Downie Sound CullLynda_DownieJudith_2017-05-11.mp3 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b4107f0ccb3c2b31d1ad90a3e9b6c721.mp3 Other audio Oral history interview of Lynda Cull on May 11, 2017, at Stone World Bistro and Gardens, Escondido, CA. Cull is a home brewer and financial consultant specializing in the beer industry. In this interview, Lynda discusses how she got into home brewing and her career as a financial professional in the brewing industry. She speaks to her experience with brewing groups in the San Diego area and as a woman in the brewing industry. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:20.000 Okay. Today is May 11th, 2017. This is Judith Downie, interviewer, working with Lynda Cull, interviewee, at Stone Bistro in Escondido, California. (discussion about audio quality) 00:00:20.000 --> 00:01:37.000 Well like I was saying just a second ago that the entire reason I got into the brewery industry and home brewing and everything was when I was studying abroad in Spain, I realized that first off, I don't really like wine that much, which just kind of a, kind of a bummer when you're in Spain of all places. But it was very cheap to get beer everywhere. You know, you could get little glasses of beer at bars, and it was two, three euros, which is hardly anything. So, we would go out for beer a lot, and at some point, I kind of realized that all of these European beers where they're all lagers, so they all taste like bread. They're all liquid bread. They're not, they're not super interesting. They didn't inspire a lot of, you know, different things in me. But when I was traveling, I realized that, you know, I'm coming back to San Diego, which is this huge tourist location, and I really hadn't done a lot of these San Diego kind of things. So when I came back, it was like, Well, beer is cool. I like beer, and San Diego is the, you know, craft beer capital of the world, supposedly. So, if I'm going to do San Diego things and I want to pick something, that's going to be easy and casual, why not beer? You know. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:38.000 What year was this? 00:01:38.000 --> 00:11:19.000 That was in--I came back in 2014. So, in 2014 was when I really started kind of paying attention to what breweries were down here and kind of testing them out and trying them out. And you know, one thing kind of led to another. I didn't realize because I'd been used to drinking all these European beers that all taste the same, and then I got down to San Diego and realized that there's all these different styles and every single beer tastes different. And a batch from the same brewery will taste different different times. So, that was really interesting to me. And just the entire culture of it. You know, everybody in the craft industry is pretty friendly. Everybody's a little bit nerdy. They like to talk about their beers and what's in it and everything. And it really goes to that kind of next level, where it's a little bit more intellectual in San Diego. You can tell who, when you're talking to someone, if they kind of know what they're talking about or they're totally into it 100%. It seems like people really fall onto one end of the spectrum or the other. So started going around and just trying different breweries. There was a little bar by my house that would do Kill the Keg nights on Wednesday nights. So, it was four dollars--it was three dollars. It started out as three dollars a pint. And then they raised it to four dollars a pint, which is kind of a bummer, but that really expanded my horizons as well. And at the same time, my fiancé--boyfriend at that time, my fiancé now--is up in Santa Barbara. So, I would go to visit him and there's just a handful of breweries up there, but that's really how I got into it was just, I want to do something San Diego-y. Beer is San Diego-y. So that's kinda’ what I got into and then not super long after that--I want to say in 2015--one of my friends just for Christmas bought me a little one-gallon brew kit for home brewing. He was like, “Oh, you'll totally have fun with this.” And it had all the ingredients in it and everything. And to be honest, it sat in my closet for like six months before I finally pulled it out to do anything with it. And it was really funny because, you know, I did it with my fiancé. We were brewing together, and it was like, Okay, it comes with the grains. It comes with the hops and the yeast and the fermenter and all the pieces and parts and everything, and it's reusable. So, I was like, Yes, this is going to be great. And the box said that it was a pale ale, and my favorite style is an IPA--pale ale--because I like those hoppy beers. So, I was like, Okay, this is going to be great. Awesome. The first time we brewed, it was kind of a disaster because we, first off, we didn't realize how many like pots and how much water we would need to do all of this. And we're like brewing in my little kitchen on our electric stove, which is terrible for brewing because the temperature doesn't stay even. And so we, at the end of the day, we've got like ten--we didn't start until eight o'clock at night, which is dumb. I don't know why, but it was so--we had pots and pans all over the place. Everything's a mess. And then, as we were taking our oil and putting it into our ice bath to cool it down again, the fire alarm goes off in our building. And we live in an apartment. It's a very loud, noisy, can't really get away from it kind of thing. So we had to go outside. So my first ever beer is sitting in the sink crashing. It's really close to the temperature that I need to take it out, fire alarm’s going off, you know, my bird is freaking out. We only moved into this apartment like a month before. So, it was, it was just a disaster. So, we went outside but came back in right when we came in and beer was at the perfect temperature. Okay, great. So took it out, fermented it, bottled it, the whole nine yards. It didn't turn out bad. It was drinkable. We called it The False Alarm. ‘Cause we were like, Eh, this turns out crappy? Huh. False alarm. But we, it turned out okay. It did not taste like a pale ale. It tasted more like a Hef (Hefeweizen), which I was a little bit upset about. But, I guess you kind of can't blame it because the kit that we got said it was a pale ale, but the ingredients themselves, it was literally a bag that said malt, yeast, hops. Like I have no idea what kind of yeast, what kind of malt, what kind of hops--don't know how fresh they are or anything like that. So, that was the first round, which, like I said, it turned out drinkable. We learned a lot. So, the second time we tried, we went to the Home Brew Mart just because that was the closest home brew store to us at that time. And it was really convenient because we didn't really know what we were doing and really just kind of, there's like a cooking side to beer and then a science side to beer. We were really just trying to make something drinkable. I have no idea what alcohol content it was, you know, gravity. I had no idea. I wasn't really worried about that at that time. So, we went to Ballast Point—Home Brew Mart--and they're really useful there. We said, Well, we want to brew an Irish red ale next. And they said, Okay. So they went and found a recipe. They scaled it down to one gallon for us because most people brew in five gallons. I just don't have the space for that so we only do one gallon. So, they helped us get all of that set up, so get home brewed it, turned out great. My fiancé says that it rivals the Red Trolley Ale, the Karl Strauss. I don't necessarily think I would go that far, but it was, it was pretty good. So that was fun. We're in our fifth batch now. We're doing an IPA this time, so we'll see how it goes. But I freaked out a little bit because I had--all the other styles that I've done besides the first one have all been dark styles. So, the malts have been really dark, and then when you put it in the fermenter you get a little bit of crud on the top of the fermenter, but it was always dark because that's what the malts were. So, this last time, I checked on it--just a couple of weeks ago--I checked on it, and I had a little bit of a heart attack because there's all this gunk at the top, but it's kind of like greenish a little bit. And I have to like dry hop my beer, and I'm like, Oh my God, I don't want to open this. It's going to be--I'm going to infect it. If it's not already. I thought there was mold on the top or something. I thought I was going to have to throw it away. I was so heartbroken because this is the first IPA we've tried to brew since the disastrous pale ale that wasn't a pale ale. But you know, I went online and posted on my little home brew forum and everybody was like, No, it's fine. You're totally good. That’s fine. So, we're supposed to bottle that this weekend. So, we'll see how that goes. I guess it's going to be a mystery in two weeks to see if it turned out well or not. So, that's kind of how I got started in beer and in home brewing. And then, when I started my career as a financial professional, it was really like, Okay, well anybody could be my client, but who do I really want to focus on? And literally my thought process was, Well, I like the people that work at breweries. I like to drink beer. I'd like to have an excuse to go drink beer while I'm working. So, I guess I'm going to target the beer industry, which I did. I cold called some breweries to try to do more like a financial wellness type program for the employees. I joined Pink Boots kind of not really knowing what it was but still getting that it was women and beer. And because I was working with breweries at the time and had a couple of clients that worked at breweries, I was able to say, Well, I am technically in the industry, which is why they let me in. So that was a big bonus. And that's really expanded a lot of just being someone who likes beer to actually feeling like I'm a little bit more part of the industry, a little bit more in the know and in the loop about different breweries, and who's doing what. At this point, all of my friends are, you know, they come to me all the time like, “What kind of beer should I drink?” You know, they like to go to breweries with me and try all kinds of different stuff. So that's been really fun to kind of get both sides of it--the home brewing side and the more industrial side of it--because I feel like there's a lot of overlap, but at the same time, not quite as much. I know one of the questions on here is your with QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity) and other brewing groups. So, part of when I was looking to get into brewery industries, I thought, Okay, home brew groups would be a good place to go. So, the first one that I actually went to was the one up here in Escondido, the Society of Barley Engineers. So I first went to that meeting and it was nothing like I'd ever been at before, you know? (Conversation with waitress) What was I saying? So I went to the Society of Barley Engineers, you know, kind of talked with some of the other people that were there. It was kind of funny because I realized very quickly walking into the room that I was one of the only women with a room full of, you know, 40 people. Um, there's maybe two or three women in there, but most of it is other older men and— 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:20.000 --older men— 00:11:20.000 --> 00:14:25.000 Yeah. They're mostly older men. I mean, there's a couple of young guys in there, but they're mostly older. And when I was kind of asking around and chatting a little bit beforehand, I realized that a lot of them are more of the analytical science-y types, like the engineers and IT people and this and that and the other. So that was kind of interesting to realize. And I just remember, I was talking with this one guy, and we were having a really great conversation. It was my first meeting there. I was by myself, just kind of wandering around, talking to people. And after we'd been talking for ten minutes or so, a good amount of time, he goes, So, why are you here? I’m like, Well, I don't understand. What do you mean why am I here? It's a home brew club, like I'm here to contribute and get some knowledge and, you know, kind of see what's up. And he said something to the effect of like, Does your, does your husband brew, or does your boyfriend brew or something? And like, in that moment, I know that I don't even know what my face looked like, but in my head, like I was just shocked. Like, no, I'm the home brewer actually. I'm the one that brews everything. I'm the head brewer in the house. You know, my fiancé helps me because I make him, but not necessarily because this is what he's interested in. So, that was a little bit weird. And it just, it struck me as kind of funny that that's like--we were having this wonderful conversation, you know, totally nothing out of the ordinary. And then--but in his mind, it was just too weird. Like, he couldn't imagine why a woman would be there without some other male figure. And I did go and talk to the other women that were at that meeting afterwards, just because at that point, it was like, okay, there's three of us here. But they were kind of the same thing that that guy had assumed. They were there with their husband. They were not necessarily there because that was their hobby. It was, you know, their joint hobby. And so they came, but they really deferred to their husband to kind of take the lead on that. So that was a little bit interesting. And then, of course, because QUAFF is much bigger than Society of Barley Engineers, a lot of them were also in QUAFF. So, that was how I found out about QUAFF. And then when I found out about QUAFF, I found out about SUDS, the sorority counterpart to QUAFF. So, I haven't been to another home brewers club meeting besides SUDS since then. So, I haven't been to a main QUAFF meeting before, but from what I understand, it's structured a lo, like how the Society of Barley Engineers is, where there's a lot of beer sharing and talking about the scientific numbers specifics, because apparently that's the kind of crowd that gets drawn into home brewing. So, that was kinda’ my experience with home brew clubs is it was just very weird to realize that other people were looking at me and wondering what I was doing there, as opposed to just, oh, this is another person that's brewing and here to share knowledge. So that was a little bit weird. 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:26.000 Yeah. That would be. 00:14:26.000 --> 00:16:44.000 Yeah. So, there's just a couple of other weird things that have stuck out to me about that, particularly the way that men have interacted with me when I'm in a brewery. Like I know that the bar that I was telling you about before that had the $3 Kill the Keg nights, I mean, I was pretty much a regular. Every week, I would go. I would always invite some of my friends. If they didn't come, whatever, I'm still going to go and try everything and take advantage of that. So, and it's really cute. They have got a bar, but they've got the entire sitting area. So, I knew that I was--a friend was joining me that night. So, we wanted to sit at the bar. I got there before her. So, I was standing at the bar trying to get one of the bartenders’ attention to order, and it's the guy sitting next to me and talking to his friends. I say, hey, you know, can I look at the beer menu? Sure. They gave it to me. So I'm kind of like looking through it. And then the guy next to me, he's like, Oh, if you're looking for a good recommendation, I would go with the Grapefruit Sculpin, it's really good. And it was just weird because one, I wasn't talking to him, I asked him for the beer menu. I don't need his recommendations. I mean, at that point, I probably know more about beer than he does. Like, I don't need his recommendation. I know exactly what I want. And second off, he kind of showed that he really wasn't that into beer just because I feel like if you're really into beer, of course, you've had Grapefruit Sculpin, you know. That's kind of one of the main staples of San Diego. It's Ballast Point, it's Sculpin, it's grapefruit, but, you know, everybody's had that. So, it was just, it was weird that I didn't ask him for any recommendations. I made it pretty clear. I didn't want to talk to him. He's, you know, pretty obviously like a good twenty years older than me. He's there with his friends. So, I don't know what possessed him to feel like he needed to recommend this to me when--and if you're going to recommend something to me, like, don't make it be Grapefruit Sculpin. I mean, there's thirty beers on this tap list. There's so many other interesting options and you pick Grapefruit Sculpin? (Conversation with waitress) So, I mean, and that's not necessarily the brewing community, it's just kind of the crowd that goes to-- 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:49.000 Breweries. Just him relying on his prior (word inaudible) 00:16:49.000 --> 00:21:48.000 Yeah. Exactly. You know, I'm sure that if I hadn't known anything about beer, it probably would have been more of an opportunity to strike up a conversation with him. But because I'm like, Eh, you know, I don't need your help. I don't need your recommendations. I really don't care what you think, honestly. I'm not talking to you. And so that was, that was a little bit-- that was one of the moments that really stuck in my head is like, Oh, wow, this is, you know, I think it's totally normal. Of course, I walk up to a bar and order a beer, and I know exactly what I want, but just because I'm a woman, most people are not going to assume that I know what I want, that I know what I'm talking about. A little bit in line with the brewing thing--I was talking with a group of friends. We were around--there was some acquaintances that I talked to a few times, didn't really know super well, and somebody else in the group had started talking about home brewing. And one of the guys is like, Oh yeah, you know, I go to this store and that store. And so I inserted myself into the conversation, and we were talking about different stores and styles and what he preferred in brewing equipment, what I had, and this and that and the other. And, again, same kind of deal as the home brew club. We'd had a good ten-minute conversation, and then he's like, So does your, I mean, is your fiancé brewing? Like, is your husband brewing? You know, basically that same question is like, he, even after talking with me about all of these different home brewing things, he just couldn't believe that it was me that was doing that. He assumed that I was just kind of tagging along on my significant other's hobby. I'm like, What if I don't have a boyfriend? I don't have a husband? I mean, I do, but you know, what if I don't? So, it's just--and this was a guy that--he's similar in age to me, he hangs out with a lot of the same friends that I do, who I would basically consider to be very equitable when it comes to that kind of stuff. But that was just his assumption. And, and it was so funny because as soon as he said it, I knew that as soon as it left his mouth, he was just like, Oh no, I shouldn't have said that, kind of foot-in-mouth syndrome a little bit. But it's, you know, it's that kind of thinking that that really makes me want to continue in the brewery industry and not necessarily get discouraged by it or upset by it. It's a little bit weird and off putting when it happens, because you know, those are the first two times it happened, and I'm sure it's not going to be the last two times, but it'll happen. Especially if I continue to get more and more into the industry and everything, but that's, it's kind of the weird thing is knowing, going into these kinds of things, that other people are going to assume that I have never done this before. I don't know what I'm doing, when it's the exact opposite. I think a lot of people--and a lot of my friends have told me--Quite frankly, there are people that like beer, there are people that love beer. And then there's where you are, which is on a completely different level, taking it to the next extreme. And there's a lot of other people in San Diego that take it to the next extreme, ‘cause that's kind of the city's thing, but very interesting. Interesting reactions I've had with--and it's always men--like I've never had another woman be like, Oh, where's your husband? Why are, you know--I've never been to a SUDS meeting or a Pink Boots meeting, where I'm expected to have a male counterpart with me, and that's my justification for being there. You know, it's never been, I need to have somebody else that's doing this with me to come. It's just, Oh, we're all women, we're all beer aficionados, let's get together and talk about beer in a place where we're not going to get that weird kind of, What are you doing here? Who are you with? Where's your man basically kind of thing. I mean, and because I started not that long ago, these are recent things like that interaction with the acquaintance with my friend group, that only happened four months ago. So I think it's getting better. I think a lot of people are just like, as soon as he said the words, he was like, Oh no, that's not, I shouldn't have said that. So, I think more people are becoming accustomed to the idea that there are women in brewing that are home brewers and do it at their own accord. Not because it's their significant others’ hobby. But obviously there's still room to grow into that. You know, it's still very masculine. It's still considered very masculine, which I don't really understand because it's basically cooking. I'm not sure how that one really gets explained away. But that's kind of where I feel like it's gonna’ get better, but it's probably going to take a long time. I will probably continue to get those kinds of weird, like, What are you doing here? kind of questions. Probably for a long while until more women start popping up. 00:21:48.000 --> 00:22:00.000 I think as long as you take it gracefully and it's another opportunity to educate, you know, it's like, that's one thing about craft beer lovers. They do like to educate the non-craft beer drinkers. 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:06.000 Oh brewers love to hear themselves talk. Me included. (Laughter) 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:20.000 So, where do you--I mean--you have such a small system now. Do you see in the future moving up to a larger system? Or are you happy with the size you're producing because it's enough to drink and enjoy and then on to the next thing? 00:22:20.000 --> 00:23:52.000 I'm kind of on the fence because at first, I thought, Well, a gallon of beer, that's enough for me to drink and give a couple of bottles to my friends. So, I thought, That's fine. But then once I actually started getting into it, and my friends started hearing about it, of course, everybody wants to try it. And then my office wants to try it. And then my friends of friends want to try it. So, at first, I thought, Well, five gallons of beer is a lot to try to get rid of, but now I realize that it would be very easy to get rid of five gallons of beer. Eventually when I have the space, I'd like to upgrade to a bigger system and start doing the five gallons. But at the same time, I'll probably keep doing one gallons just because I can do all grain. If I had a five-gallon system, I can't do an all grain recipe with five gallons of beer. There's just too much grain to fit into a pot humanly. So, I bought several bigger pots so that I can do all grain for my one-gallon batches. So, extracts are kind of a--I've never done an extract beer. I know that there are ways to do like a half-extract, half-grain kind of recipe. So, eventually when I--our plan is to buy a house in the area, and then, of course, once we own a house and have enough space, then I'd be more than happy to start brewing on a bigger system. But for now, space-wise, and because I do like the all grain--I think that's a lot of fun to actually take it the very first step of doing the grain. So, we'll see where it goes. It's kind of up in the air right now. Going both ways. 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:53.000 Keep your options open— 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:55.000 Exactly. Exactly. 00:23:55.000 --> 00:24:11.000 Okay. So, let's see. And you did mention with the Spanish beers, how they all tasted the same, like bread. I find that really interesting. Did you, while you were in Spain, did you have a chance to go outside of Spain and maybe head closer to Germany and experience any beers there? 00:24:11.000 --> 00:25:43.000 I'm kind of kicking myself because, you know, when I was living in Spain-- (conversation with waitress) When I was in Spain, I wasn't necessarily as into beer as I am now, so I didn't go to Germany. I didn't go to any of those big, you know, beer-producing countries, which I’m kind of upset about now. You know, the next trip that we go to Europe, we're definitely going to do that. My sister is studying abroad in the Czech Republic, so we're going to visit her and go to Belgium and Germany and kind of do a little beer tour. I did have a couple of craft breweries in Spain. They're kind of few and far between, but there was one--I forgot what it was called--but there was one that was kind of near Madrid that our local bar got a couple of bottles, and they had three options. It was a Hef, which is basically what everything tastes like. But a little bit better ‘cause it's, you know, it's a craft beer, it's not the local well drink. And they had a red ale, I think, and a wheat ale. So, nothing like the IPAs, you know, down here and everything. So, I didn't do a lot of beer drinking when I was there outside of whatever was available, which you know, now--I went to Spain, came back, and then got into beer. So, now that I'm into beer, I really want to go back and kind of try some of these other places, too. 00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Now what makes a red ale? Just realizing that I don't brew, so— 00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:47.000 I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the malts. I feel like whenever I go places, I see a lot of different variations on a red ale. Um, I mean, like when we brewed one, we've brewed an Irish red ale, which has a particular grain profile and not very hoppy at all, much more malty bready kind of tasting, but still as that kind of caramel-y taste to it, which is why it's red ale because you're using darker malts. So, they end up being a little bit more roasted, a little bit more caramel-y, more on the sweeter side. So that's--but I've also seen things that say just red ale or there's a Flanders red ale. So, there's all these weird variations of it, and my entire thing about beer styles is so long as you can justify why it's in that style, I mean, anything goes really. I’ve had pale ales that I would say is an IPA, and IPAs that I would probably call a pale ale or something different. 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:50.000 The categories do seem somewhat subjective. 00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:14.000 Exactly. I know that there are technically like hard, fast rules for what's supposed to be in which style if you're going by like GABF (Great American Beer Festival) standards, but nobody's keeping track of the big breweries. I mean, I think it's a call, their style, so it's whatever they want. Basically, just kind of cross your fingers and hope that it kinda’ sorta’ is what you were expecting when you order it. 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:16.000 And enjoy it, no matter what. 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.000 Yeah, exactly. 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:27.000 And then, on the Kill the Keg that you mentioned, were they brewing in house, or were these kegs from various brewers? 00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:58.000 Yeah, they were from various different breweries. They mostly did San Diego breweries, but they would have a couple of one-off ones from further away. Actually, funnily enough, right around the same time that I moved out of that area and stopped going to that bar, they did set up a little brewing system in the back. So, they're brewing their own beer now. I haven't tried any of it. But we’ll—eventually, I keep meaning to make my way back over there. It's right next to SDSU. So, there's, there's no reason why I can't just drive down the street and check it out. 00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:04.000 And now have you gone to White Labs and tried their taster flights, where they have the same beer brewed with several different yeasts? 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:15.000 Yeah. That's crazy. I was so upset when I first heard about White Labs and how they do the different yeast stream tasters because they close at eight o'clock, and I'm usually still working— 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:18.000 And that’s why you were upset. You weren’t upset about the fact they experiment with different yeasts. 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:53.000 Definitely not. I was upset that I couldn't manage to find time to go to them. So, then when I found out that the SUDS meetings are all at White Labs, I was like, Yes, sign me up. I'm going to do that. I love that. I feel bad because my, you know, I've been to White Labs now several times. My fiancé has not, but it's just because it closes so early, you know, it's hard for--We live in UTC, so it's not that far, but by the time I get home, and we both change and we get ready to go and we eat dinner. And then by the time we get over there, it's like 7:30 and it’s last call. 00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:55.000 That doesn't leave you any time to actually enjoy. 00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:21.000 Right. I mean, because I'm usually done with work so late, we actually tend to pick the breweries that are open until ten because the breweries either seem to close at eight or ten. There's not a lot of in between. So we basically pick the ones that go until ten because, you know, I don't want to get to a brewery and it be last call right when I get there, you know? I’m the kind of person that sits there and drinks one beer in three hours. 00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:23.000 And then you feel guilty keeping the staff late. 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:41.000 Exactly. Exactly. So we will look for the ones that are open at 10, but we will make--this Saturday, actually, we both have our days free for once, so we'll probably make it over to White Labs, but there’s so many other breweries. So we'll see. 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:46.000 Yeah. How many breweries would you say you've been to at this point, at least the local? 00:29:46.000 --> 00:30:14.000 At least the local ones. Gosh, I have no idea. I'm going to throw out at least thirty. We tend to go back to the ones that we like a lot. So, Kilowatt’s one of our favorites, we go there pretty often. Ballast Point for a long time--we were both pretty hooked on. Still one of my favorite breweries—I’m a little bit mad that they sold out--but I'll enjoy them until the quality changes at least, you know? 00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:17.000 So, you haven't noticed a change in their quality since they sold out? 00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.000 No, not yet— 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:19.000 Taken over. 00:30:19.000 --> 00:31:17.000 Right, exactly. It was since they were bought out, taken over or whatever you want to call it. And I, I know that a lot of the people--when they first sold--a lot of the people that worked there were like, No, the original people are going to stay. The brewers are going to stay. All the recipes are still there. So, you know, I give it like five-ish years maybe until the quality changes. I mean, I could be totally wrong. I, you know, I really have no idea. It was so recent ago that I feel like they haven't had enough time to do a ton of changes yet, but you know, Home Brew Mart is Ballast Point. I mean, that's how Ballast Point started, so they've got the Ballast Point tasting room there. So, I always get Ballast Point beer, while I wander around and look at all the other equipment and dream about the things that I wish I had the space to do. But I haven't noticed a significant change. I guess we'll see as time goes on. 00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:40.000 And you mentioned that you have a forum that you get online with. And so, you've got the face-to-face through the home brewers and Pink Boots. Do you find--how do you compare the support you get between virtual and in-person, barring the male response to you as a woman brewer? 00:31:40.000 --> 00:33:42.000 Yeah. I honestly--it's pretty even. If I had a question and I went to one of the home brew clubs or Pink Boots, I'm sure they'd answer it, and they would give me the entire explanation as to why. Same kind of thing online. I think it's a little bit more interesting online because different regions have different styles and opinions, and I feel like when you're talking to people in the same home brew club all the time, like they all pretty much use the same techniques probably. But when I go online and I'm talking with other people that maybe, you know, they have different equipment than I have accessible, or maybe they get different ingredients because they can get different hops or this and that and the other. So, I mean, the support is definitely still there. I think it's a little bit easier online to cheat just because no--it's very anonymous--so nobody really knows who I am or if I'm a woman or a man or old or young or whatever. So, it's a little bit more non-judgmental online, I would say. If I ask a specific question, I'm going to get a specific answer for what I was asking versus if I'm talking to someone in person and I ask a question, they might give me the more basic answer when I'm looking for the intermediate answer. You know, again, just based off of appearances, like young woman. So that definitely plays into it when I'm talking with people, who don't know me super well. But when you're online, I mean, people assume that if you're on this home brewing subreddit (online forum) that you kind of know what you're talking about, or at least you know enough to have found your way onto this website. And I've definitely asked some stupid questions, but everybody's been really nice about it in both spheres. That's something that I do really like about home brewers is that there are people that know a lot, and you can get really, really into it, but everybody is very, very kind to the newbies. You know, it's very collaborative. Everybody wants more people to start home brewing just because, you know, it's fun. It's not like there's any competition. 00:33:42.000 --> 00:34:01.000 Yeah, I have to say, I have found the community extremely welcoming and very warm and just wonderful. But of the home brewers, you know, is there anybody talking about going out and opening their own brewery, or is everybody pretty much happy with what they're doing? 00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:23.000 Most people are happy with what they're doing. Um, which, you know, being in the finance side of things as my career, I kinda like that. I don't hear a lot of people (Conversation with waitress) Um, you had asked me about— 00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:26.000 Home brewers starting their own— 00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:56.000 Oh, starting their own breweries. I haven't heard a lot of that just because I feel like a lot of people realize that you don't just get to brew beer all day. You do have to actually start a new business, which I feel like a lot of people realize is not nearly as easy. I mean, you can make the best beer in the world, but unless you know how to run a business, you're not gonna’ make it. So, I personally don't have a lot of home brewing friends that are thinking of starting their own brewery, just because it's--that's a life commitment right there. 00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:59.000 Just getting through the ABC (Alcoholic Beverage Control) seems to be a life— 00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:32.000 I mean, it's just insane. And then you have to figure out how to brew on these industrial systems and balancing your income versus your expenses. I mean, most small businesses are not profitable for the first three years, at least. So, if you're going to be opening a brewery, that's a big commitment. So, the people that I hang out with are not necessarily looking to go that route. You know, they just want to brew at home and have their own beer to drink and enjoy the process. Not really trying to make it big. 00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:42.000 Do any of them seem to have ramped up their systems just to meet the demand of friends and family like you're talking about—that it would be easy to brew five gallons and get rid of it? 00:35:42.000 --> 00:36:39.000 I don't know. I feel like a lot of people start on five gallons. So, I kinda’ went the opposite direction, where I started on one gallon. I don't know a lot of other people that started on a one gallon and that kept with it. I feel like a lot of people get those one-gallon brew kits for gifts. And then kind of like what I did, you know, I threw it in the closet for six months and then didn't look at it again. And it was only through sheer determination and my friend that gave it to me, his persistence on the Why can’t I drink this beer? Why isn't it done yet? When are you going to start it? When are you going to do this? So, he kind of pushed me a little bit more into making it a priority. At first I was like, Oh, this is just some weird, stupid hobby. I'll try it out. It'll probably be fine. I'll probably do it once, realistically, and then never look at the thing again. But when I made the first batch, I was like, Okay, this did not turn out the way I wanted it to, what did I do wrong? What can I do the next time so that it does turn out the way that I want it to do. 00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:41.000 So you're seeing a challenge in the brewing. 00:36:41.000 --> 00:37:34.000 Yeah, definitely. It’s not very consistent because I keep picking different styles for every single batch, so it's not easy to compare everything. And also, I only have a one-gallon kit, so I usually drink all the beer. And then by the time I go to brew another batch and that batch is done. I mean, the first batch was gone two weeks ago. We drank it. It's been fun so far, but, uh, I don't think a lot of people that start out with those one-gallon kits really stick with it. So, I don't know a ton of people that have upgraded, but I imagine there's gotta’ be people out there that have done the same thing. You can buy refill kits online, so it's gotta’ be a thing. I went to Ballast Point instead because I wanted to actually talk to a real person and kind of look at everything, but you can order kits online. 00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:47.000 Now when you go to Home Brew Mart or any of the other supply stores, do they sell set quantities or can you buy, you know, like you said, they downsize the recipe for you. So you don't wind up with a lot of leftover materials that you've got to deal with. 00:37:47.000 --> 00:38:31.000 Right. Well, with the barley and the grains and stuff I don't because they sell that by weight. But like for example, I have three different hop pellets varieties in my fridge, because since I'm only brewing on a one-gallon kit, I'll only need half an ounce of hops, but they sell them in five-ounce containers. So now I'm kind of stuck with the leftovers. So that's kinda’ my next project is Okay, looking for new recipes that I can kind of recycle some--like the leftover yeast, you can't really keep ‘cause it's yeast. So, you kind of have to use it and pitch it, which is a bummer. But I do have extra hops all over. They’ve kind of taken over the fridge. They're getting a little bit out of control, but— 00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:40.000 Well, or go back and brew some of those earlier recipes you did to see, you know, if you (word inaudible) a little bit here, is it going to turn out the same? Be even better. 00:38:40.000 --> 00:39:02.000 Exactly. Like I said, that Irish red turned out real good. So, we'll--I kept the recipe. We didn't change the recipe at all. My fiancé is kind of like, Well, why don't we throw this in it? And why don't we throw that in it? I'm like, No, no, this is the first time we've tried this style. Let's just follow the recipe and make sure that it turns out right first off. And then we can, then we can try to experiment a little bit more. 00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:06.000 Is he the one that wants to try to challenge the recipes a little bit? 00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:34.000 He's the cook, so he's the one that's in the kitchen all the time, and it's kind of his kitchen. He doesn't follow recipes. He basically just makes stuff and throws other things in. So he kind of wants to do the beer in the same way. And I'm much more like, No, we gotta’ follow the recipe. I want this to turn out the way I wanted it. So, it's an interesting dichotomy, but you know, again, I'm the head brewer and he's the assistant. So, I get to make the calls at the end of the day as to what's going in the beer. 00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:38.000 Exactly. Okay. Well, I think that covered all of my questions. 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:39.000 Perfect. 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:45.000 So, if you have something else you want to add? I think you've been very informative. 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:48.000 I don't know— 00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:50.000 What's going on for the home brewers-- 00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:01.000 Well, I hope it’s a useful entry at least. Will go forward into time and provide some insight. But yeah, that's about all I've got. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CullLynda_DownieJudith_2017-05-11.xml CullLynda_DownieJudith_2017-05-11.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cull, Lynda. Interview May 11th, 2017. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Lynda Cull on May 11, 2017, at Stone World Bistro and Gardens, Escondido, CA. Cull is a home brewer and financial consultant specializing in the beer industry. In this interview, Lynda discusses how she got into home brewing and her career as a financial professional in the brewing industry. She speaks to her experience with brewing groups in the San Diego area and as a woman in the brewing industry. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-068 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lynda Cull Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.). San Diego (Calif.), Spain Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Home brewing Brewchive(r) Community history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f9051e89eaf3907515a0840ab7845661.pdf b10d29ee67186d73e18da3f3f54052eb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cull, Lynda. Interview transcript, May 11, 2017. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Lynda Cull on May 11, 2017 at Stone World Bistro and Gardens, Escondido, CA. Cull is a home brewer and financial consultant specializing in the beer industry. In this interview, Lynda discusses how she got into home brewing and her career as a financial professional in the brewing industry. She speaks to her experience with brewing groups in the San Diego area and as a woman in the brewing industry. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lynda Cull Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" title="In copyright">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CullLynda_DownieJudith_2017-05-11_ADAtranscript Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Home brewing Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.). San Diego (Calif.), Spain Brewchive(r) Community history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e65b97d315ca4d4d50564b970e124827.pdf 2aacebaf11afc9c5c1d34ab0000c4551 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mifflin, Marnie. Interview transcript, February 2023. Description An account of the resource Transcript of interview with Margaret "Marnie" Mifflin. Mifflin shares her experience living throughout Southern California as an active community member and dedicated volunteer. In this interview, she recounts working as a switchboard operator, hospital aide, bus driver, and docent in Camp Pendleton. Mifflin also discusses her marriage to a U.S. Marine, motherhood, and civic engagement. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Margaret Mifflin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Faye Jonason Robert Mifflin Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-24 Subject The topic of the resource Bus drivers Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Hospitals -- Employees Marine Corps spouses Motor vehicle drivers Tour guides (Persons) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Fallbrook (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) San Clemente (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived SC-027 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Margaret Mifflin License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MifflinMargaret_JonasonFaye_2023-02-24_Transcript Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/cfbcfdbddbd9beedbf64c24022cc850d.pdf d78973bff43fc03bd6d4bc72e7bc7d93 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource McWilliams, Marilyn. Interview transcript, April 5, 2021. Description An account of the resource Marilyn McWilliams retired after 23 years at California State University San Marcos, where she most recently was the Administrative Assistant for the Office of Inclusive Excellence. McWilliams has been particularly active in advocacy and assistance to underrepresented communities on campus, and has been recognized by the Black Student Union at their awards night, named a Civility Champion, and received the Jonathan Pollard Award for social justice through student affairs. In her interview, McWilliams gives an in-depth account of her Black Experience starting with her childhood. McWilliams considers her childhood connection to education and how that led her to an administrative role at California State University San Marcos. McWilliams also discusses the CSUSM Black Student Center, her function in a supportive capacity, and the important role students' advocacy played in the creation of the Center. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Marilyn McWilliams Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-05 Subject The topic of the resource Anti-Black racism California State University San Marcos -- Staff California State University San Marcos. Office of Inclusive Excellence California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Marilyn McWilliams License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sierra Jenkins Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marilyn McWilliams OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Black Student Center OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 McWilliams, Marilyn. Interview April 5th, 2021. SC027-09 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Black Student Center Black experience Office of Inclusive Excellence Marilyn McWilliams Sierra Jenkins moving image McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/93959df71a6dacc7ab6c495d62947c4d.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 39 Childhood McWilliams discusses being raised in Oakland and her early school and family life. They were the first Black family in their neighborhood. Oakland ; middle class ; Oakland Hills 0 277 Path to employment at California State University San Marcos McWilliams talks about the importance of education in her family and the life circumstances and choices that led her to working at California State University San Marcos. education ; civil service ; Associate degree 0 567 Learning about Black history and the Black experience, from childhood to adulthood McWilliams' father played a key role in her experience of Blackness. This was heavily based on their interaction with predominantly white people and focused on equality. jazz ; equality ; imposter syndrome 0 1010 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements McWilliams speaks about how her role in the Office of Inclusive Excellence has made her aware of the current state of racism and inequity. Black Lives Matter 0 1240 Role in the creation of the Black Student Center McWilliams reflects on how her early support of Black students played into the creation of the Black Student Center. students 0 1600 Previous efforts to establish the Black Student Center Marilyn outlines the development of student identity centers on campus. She also reflects on the student leaders who accomplished the approved proposal for the Black Student Center. multicultural center ; Cross-cultural Center ; Latinx Center ; student leaders ; Associated Students, Incorporated ; pushback 0 1991 Leaders on the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes McWilliams speaks in more detail about the student leaders and others who worked tirelessly on the creation of the Black Student Center. Black Student Union ; Associated Students, Incorporated 0 2200 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation McWilliams discusses how students need to see more Black faculty, staff, and administrators on campus. cluster hire ; representation 0 2445 Pushback to the creation of the Black Student Center McWilliams reflects on pushback from students to the creation of the Black Student Center. pushback 0 2551 The Black Student Center Grand Opening and McWilliams' first visit to the BSC after opening McWilliams discusses her pride in experiencing the opening of the Black Student Center and her happiness for the students. Her hope is that the space can be expanded over time. pride ; students ; inadequate space ; Anthony Jett, Sr. ; University Student Union 0 2935 Early focus of the BSC's initiatives, programming, events McWilliams discusses how Black Student Center events focused on bringing Black history and education to campus. Kwanzaa ; Tulsa Race Massacre ; Black women ; Black Panthers 0 3148 The move from Student Success to Student Life McWilliams comments on the history of the organizational structure surrounding the student identity centers including the Black Student Center. student life ; student affairs ; Associated Students, Incorporated 0 3319 Achieving the purpose of the Black Student Center and future needs McWilliams states that growth is still needed for the Black Student Center to achieve its purpose including more space, support, and staffing. space ; staff 0 3460 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on McWilliams McWilliams talks about how to continue moving the Black Student Center program forward. events ; duplication 0 3577 Expectations for the future of the Black Student Center McWilliams discusses her expectations for the new director, John Rawlins III, especially once campus is re-opened post Covid closure. She reflects on the student experience during the Covid closure and virtual learning. John Rawlins III ; Covid ; virtual learning 0 3837 Developing an understanding of Blackness McWilliams talks about coming to her understanding of Blackness during an incident with her son in elementary school. Blackness ; motherhood ; son 0 4269 Final thoughts about the Black Student Center and the Black Faculty/Staff Association &#13 ; McWilliams reflects on her time as president of the African-American Faculty Staff Association (now Black Faculty Staff Association) at California State University San Marcos. Black Faculty Staff Association ; African-American Faculty Staff Association ; outgoing 0 Oral history Marilyn McWilliams retired after 23 years at California State University San Marcos, where she most recently was the Administrative Assistant for the Office of Inclusive Excellence. McWilliams has been particularly active in advocacy and assistance to underrepresented communities on campus, and has been recognized by the Black Student Union at their awards night, named a Civility Champion, and received the Jonathan Pollard Award for social justice through student affairs. In her interview, McWilliams gives an in-depth account of her Black Experience starting with her childhood. McWilliams considers her childhood connection to education and how that led her to an administrative role at California State University San Marcos. McWilliams also discusses the CSUSM Black Student Center, her function in a supportive capacity, and the important role students' advocacy played in the creation of the Center. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:25.000 Today is Monday, April 5th, 2021, at 3:02 p.m. I am Sierra Jenkins at CSU (California State University) San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Marilyn McWilliams for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Marilyn, thank you for being here with me today. 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:28.000 Thank you, Miss Sierra, for having me. 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:38.000 Of course. So we're going to just jump right into it, the questions. First one I have is where were you born? And where did you grow up? 00:00:38.000 --> 00:01:03.000 I was born in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, but I was raised in Oakland, California. We moved to California when I was six, six years old. So I was raised in Northern California. In the last 23 years I've been here in Southern Cal. 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:07.000 So interesting. 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:19.000 And when you think about that, Sierra, that is like full circle. O, Oklahoma to Oakland. And now I reside in Oceanside. Full circle. 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:30.000 Really? That really is full circle (laughs). It was meant to be. So tell me about your childhood growing up in Oakland. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:03:38.000 I had a pretty good childhood, growing up. I think we moved to California for better opportunities. My father had graduated from Langston University in Oklahoma and moved the family. I'm the baby of four. And actually, I'm sorry, I'm the baby of five. I found out I had another sister in Oklahoma. She's in Oklahoma, but my father moved the four of us and my mother here, to California for better opportunity. He got a job at a high school, Castlemont High in Oakland. And for me, that's when I started school. I started kindergarten and at the age of six in Oakland and I had a pretty good childhood, never wanted for anything. I considered myself basically growing up middle-class and that was very important for a Black family during that time and when we did move out here, nothing but the best for my father. We moved to the Hills, Oakland Hills and we, I can't say if we were the first Black family in our neighborhood, but if we wasn't the first, we were the second, ‘cause it wasn't many of us in my neighborhood growing up. But I think that my childhood prepared me for you know, what was ahead. My mother worked in civil service and my father in education and, like I said, I've never wanted for anything. And, I had a very good foundation. 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:44.000 How did you come to your understanding of Blackness? 00:03:44.000 --> 00:04:17.000 Ooh. That's a, that's a pretty deep question. Me. Okay. How did that come to my understanding of Blackness? Let me think on that one. Let's come back to that one, Sierra. Cause that kind of took me off guard. Let me kinda’— 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:36.000 Okay. Not a problem. Let me see what it said. And your childhood, what were you taught about in your childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? 00:04:36.000 --> 00:09:17.000 I was taught that we could be anything that we wanted to be. I was taught that education was very, very important in order to get to where you want it to be. School was drilled in us. Like I said, my father was in education. I think it was drilled in us so much so that I wanted to steer away from it. It was just, my father made us like homework, whether or not you have homework in that particular, especially when you got to like junior high, we, back then we had elementary, junior high, then high school, junior high started at ninth grade. Am I aging myself? Cause that's not it now. Junior high started at ninth grade and you had like different classes, six classes. And I remember my father was like it doesn't matter if you have homework in that particular class that night you bringing all your books, all five of your books home and you're going to be studying. So, I know that for me, school wasn't—it was important, but for me it was, I’m kind of over it. So by the time I graduated high school, I knew I had to go to college, but I didn't want to. And so I started working, and I went to a junior college directly out of high school, and I completed one year and then I had a car accident and I took a year off. And once I did that, it was like, who wants to go back? But I did. I went back and I got my AA (Associate of Arts). That was it. In that time, I had fell in love, met this man and fell in love and going away, like out of state to college or anything like that—it just was not in the cards for me. I got my AA. We're talking about back in the early eighties. I think that was ‘81. And it's like, I'm set. I got my degree. I'm set. So I started out on the work field and like I said, my mother worked in civil service, and she had worked there and retired after 25 years. And I said, I could do that. So I got me a civil service job and I said, this is where I'm going to, I can do this. I'm good. And until, did 13 years there until the base closed, and then it's like, oh my God, now, what am I going to do? So the best thing for me to do was to try to get back in college, but I still wasn't feeling it, you know, and I ended up moving here, and remarried, and during that time I had divorced my husband, but I remarried, and I moved down here and after a year down here, I lucked up and got a job at Cal State San Marcos. They had just opened up the Early Learning Center, the first childcare center on campus. So I started working there and when I started working there, it was working as a—just coming in to get the books up and running for the Early Learning Center, and it was an eight-week position. I was hired knowing that it was only a temporary position, that eight-week present position. But after my eight weeks was over, the program director at that time felt the need that they needed someone longer. So then that's where my career at Cal State San Marcos began, and I’m very fortunate to say, 23 years later, I'm still here. What turned out to be an eight-week position into that being 23 years for me and I'm very thankful for that. But I think I detoured from the question you asked me, what was I answering, Sierra? I'm sorry. 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:26.000 No problem. That was really interesting. I was asking about, how, what was your taught experience about Black history, experience? 00:09:26.000 --> 00:12:13.000 Yes, my, like I said, my dad's in education, so we were taught and he actually was a musician. He played the saxophone, so, jazz, listening to jazz was like, you know pretty good, but as far as we were taught that we were just as good as everyone. And by my father being in education he was surrounded by whites. So you know, things, parties and things that he would have at the house, it will be a mixture. So I've always seen a mixture, and everyone should be treated equal. And we were just as good as the next person. So I was taught that you don't— such a cliche, you know—you don't see color, but you know that it's there. You know that others look at you differently. The high school that I went to was predominantly white, predominantly, because of the neighborhood that I lived in and where we went, and it's just like, if now I go, I look back at that high school and it's predominantly Black is like, what a difference generations make, where people start, more Black people started moving towards the Hills moving in the Hills, so like I said, we were one of the first, if not the first in our neighborhood, but most, more started moving and in today's this like—and I think that when I be talking, I don't know where I be going, but I probably steered away from that question again, so I think I need to just leave it there. My parents really did instill the importance in us that we can do and be anything that our hearts desire. But for me back then, all I wanted to do was be a housewife and a mother. I wanted babies. I wanted to be, but I also knew that you needed, you need it more in order to sustain. So. 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:34.000 That's really interesting. And you mentioned how, right after you finished high school, you went to junior college and then you were in the workforce for a bit. During that time, did you learn anything new or different about the Black experience or about being Black yourself? 00:12:34.000 --> 00:15:44.000 Not me personally, no, because me growing up as a child, I never had to struggle or want for anything. So, I never felt that for me personally, I never felt that. And I think my type of, I don't know, probably because of how I raised, because my mother was such an outgoing person, I never felt unwanted. I never felt as if when I walked into the room I wasn't wanted there. But I've always been a somewhat shy type of person, so I never wanted to be the person to stand out, but yet still, I always ended up being the person that stands, that stood out because I think, because I was loud and always wanted to make someone smile, you know, just, I wanted to bring joy. And then I would find myself being like the center of attention that I never ever, ever, ever wanted, but it always ended up like that. And then I'll walk away and say, how did I just do that? But I've never, ever felt unwanted or, not or looked upon as someone less than. I never felt that in my life, even working at Cal State San Marcos, at a university. I did feel—that's sometimes inadequate in parts, partly because I only had an AA and here I am working at an institution, a four-year institution where degrees were so important. Bachelors, masters, doctorates, you know, so important, but even working there I still never had that desire to go on. And probably because of my experience, I still was able to be me, if that makes sense. 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:45.000 It does. 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:59.000 I felt, I think sometimes I did feel less than because I only had an AA, but that AA didn't really define me if that makes sense? 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:05.000 Yes. So kind of felt like imposter syndrome type thing? 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:09.000 Probably. Yeah. Why am I here? 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:10.000 Yeah. 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:21.000 I deserve to be here, too, but do I? But I'm still here. So I guess, yes, yes. 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:46.000 Yeah. That's actually a great segue into our next question. How has Black social justice and activism such as the Civil Rights Movement, feminism, the natural hair movement and Black Lives Matter affected you? 00:16:46.000 --> 00:19:10.000 It. How has it affected me? It affected me in a way that it's sad to see the world in the state that it is in right now. Especially with everything that's going on now. Like I said, all of that was not part of my upbringing or who I am as a person. And I guess I must've always just surrounded myself around individuals that didn't feel the way, like some, like a lot of people out there are feeling social justice, Black Lives Matter. Especially working in the department that I work in. We get, I work in the Office of Inclusive Excellence, and we get a lot, you know, inequity things that are happening on campus with our people. But how did it affect me? Oh. Affects me to the point of will it ever end? It’s, I don't understand it. I don't understand. And I know, you know, why can't people see us all as humans? We're all human, everyone has their own experiences, their own—okay, Sierra, I need to articulate that a little better. 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:13.000 You’re doing, you’re doing good. 00:19:13.000 --> 00:20:22.000 And it's like, how did it affect me? I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I don't know how it affected me. Maybe, I don't know. It's sad. It's sad to see. It hurts me to see how a lot of people, I know people that don't know how a lot of people are treated. It’s sad for me to see how – not sad. It's, it's like, I don't understand how, well I guess I do understand because it's how people are raised. But I don't understand how people can look at an individual and just think that they're not worthy to be here to occupy this space, to offer input or, I don't know. I think I'm just rambling. So, let's go to the next one. 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:23.000 Okay. 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.000 That one stumped me. 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:41.000 (Laughs) It is another deep one. This one goes more towards your experience at San Marcos specifically. What role did you play in the creation of the BSC? 00:20:41.000 --> 00:26:10.000 Not much of a role. I understood the students. I understood their need and desire to have space of their own. And since I, I think since I started working, working there, I think the way that I found my calling, because remember I stated earlier how I pretty much felt somewhat inadequate because I only had an AA. So working there when I first started, I started off in the Early Learning Center with the little babies and as the admin person working in the Early Learning Center, which was very, so fulfilling. Then you get, I got to meet a lot of the students because they will bring their children there and I worked there for about five years, and when a position opened up at the Associated Students (Incorporated, student government) office, working with the board of directors, an admin position opened up there, I applied for it, and I got it. So then I moved into that position. So now I'm around students, all kinds of students, and they're the ones that's pretty much running the association. And they're technically like our bosses, but, you know, the staff is there to make sure that they're doing everything according to code, Title IX policy and all of that, but they were technically our bosses. I found my calling during that particular time because I felt more of a mother figure to the students and the Black students really kind of cultivated towards me. Like I said, I don't know, sometimes I’m like the loud one in the room. I'm making them feel kind of like a home. I'm like that mother figure, like: what are you doing in here? Shouldn't you be in class or, you know offer things that way where a lot of my other colleagues would offer advice on this is the class you should take, or you know upper division, lower division, all of that type, this is the path that you need to go, or in order to graduate, these are the things, and my role was totally different, you know. Take care of you and make sure you're eating. Did you have lunch today? Or you know just things like that. So that kind of like mother away from home type of situation. So I found myself that way. So I think the students felt, I think they felt that way also because they always came to me, and I've always had an open-door policy no matter where I was, where students can come. So I got their, I understood their need. Ever since I've been there, the Black student, faculty and staff was at 3%, you know, always at 3% at our university and that's not a high number. So it's like, how do we get more and more students? But in order to get students, you want to have faculty that students want to go into a classroom where they have faculty that looks like them. And so, I got that a lot. So the need for them to have their space was very important. And as far as like playing a role, I was that listening ear. So I would listen and I can, I would be able to advise some: well, you know, have you tried, have you talked to such and such, have you did this, have you did that? And then when you get those students that are outspoken and it's like, no, we need action! We need, we need this, we need that, I'm there with my colleagues to help them navigate that. So my role wasn't big, but it was there. It was big enough, if that makes sense. 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:38.000 Definitely. It sounds like you're the moral support, probably the push sometimes people needed to hear. Since you definitely were an ear to students prior to the creation of the BSC (Black Student) Center had you heard a previous like previous push for the center before the one that, that, allowed it to be created this time? 00:26:38.000 --> 00:32:51.000 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Students wanted that. And then, you know, there's no space, so there's no space on campus. Which came first? We got the Multicultural Center, which ended up being the, the multicultural center and that ended up being the Cross-Cultural Center and that on our campus kind of like predominantly, it (was) designed to be for all, but it ended up being more of our Asian, Pacific Islander Desi, it ended up being kind of like the center where a lot of our Asian students kind of like gravitated to. And then I think we got the, the Latin /x Center after that, which ended up being a very small area. But then we got some very outspoken, I mean, even before the (Black Student) Center did become, even before the center five years ago, we got some very outspoken students that would not take no for an answer and demanded the president, where it was so much so, they had help from others, not me as far as like writing the proposal and all of that, more my other colleagues that had their master’s (laughs), their degrees and stuff, to help them put all of that together to bring to the president. I think my role was small, but I think it was, it was there. And I was very proud of them. Very proud of them for how they went about it. At one point as—I do want to mention that I did end up after 14 years with ASI, Associated Students (Incorporated), I did get the position when we first opened our diversity office on campus. Diversity, Educational Equity, and Inclusion was the office that opened up in July 20, no July, where are we? 2021? July 2011, when that office first opened up and then I applied for an admin position there and I got that in November 2011. So when that office opened up, it opened up a more direct avenue for the students to advocate for the space, and our office helped. But my part was just being there to be supportive in any way that I could. And right now, if I was to list those to you, I couldn't even tell you what they were but I do know that with—that's where I was going—see how I'm just going all over the place? I do know that within ASI, it was the very first time that ASI had an all-color female executive board. So we had a Black female for president, a Black female for executive—I forgot what the titles were, a Black female for the diversity rep, and like a Latina female for the vice president of something. So all the execs were females of color. And I do want to say that that year was really, they did so much, but they got so much pushback. And it was really sad to see that. They was, you know, all strong women. I'm hoping that some of them are part of this interview. Naturally they're great. They've graduated, but they were in our office all the time because of how, because of how they were being treated. So I know that when, if they are in the interview, their experience at Cal State San Marcos way different, because they got so much pushback and it was like, they couldn't do it, but they did some amazing work. Amazing. And it was during that particular board when the president decided that yes, we do need a (Black Student) Center. So I don't even know if I answered that question and let me apologize to you right now because I noticed sometimes I hear one and then I start saying something that I may be, so I don't know. I know that you're recording. So if you have the capacity to like, okay, she wasn't making no sense, you know, cut! You know, I have no problem with that because I'm probably just going off on a tangent, like I am now. So I’m gonna’ be quiet. 00:32:51.000 --> 00:33:08.000 No, that's totally fine. You answered the question perfectly and then actually it actually goes into the next one. Cause it sounds like those women were kind of like unsung heroes that maybe not everyone knows about when it comes to the BSC. 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Absolutely. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:10.000 Yeah. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:45.000 Absolutely. Like I said, I truly hope that they are part of the interview process. I believe the director, well, I did reach out to one of the students that I'm hoping that the director of the BSC has contacted her, but I do hope that these students are part of this interview process because I know that they will be able to share a lot of information, especially from the student perspective. 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:58.000 Yeah. Who are the different leaders that like spearheaded the BSC project? 00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.000 The different leaders? 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:11.000 Yeah. Like who were the main people you would say advocated or were central to creating the Black Student Center? 00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:57.000 Oh the students definitely, the BSU, the Black Student Union president at the time. And not just the president, but the Black Student Union student organization, a lot of the students there, as well as the execs in the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) board of directors. So the—I'm sorry, I just, I just saw your cat and my mind—No, no, no, it's not you it's like, Ooh, she has a cat. I'm sorry, Sierra (laughs). 00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:05.000 You’re totally fine! I was surprised they've been good this long, this far in (laughs). 00:35:05.000 --> 00:36:20.000 But the students definitely, I would say definitely they are the main ones too, that make, and they wasn't even here wh- oh yeah. When we opened the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) board, they were graduating, but some of the students from the Black Student Union student organization wasn't even here for the opening (of the Black Student Center). They had, you know, they had since left. They wasn't even here for the opening to the, to see that. But the ASI, the ASI executive board were. So I'm thankful for that because I'm thinking about the opening now. And the three of them were there at that, but I will say the students were the main force, but they had help. They had help from some faculty. We have our Sharon, Dr. Sharon Elise at the time. Dilcie Perez, Ariel Stevenson, a lot of the faculty and staff, they were there to help support them, but it was mainly a student effort. 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:37.000 Okay. That also leads into the next question. What did staff faculty, and especially students, since they were central to this, that were involved in the creation of the BSC, what did they feel they needed? 00:36:37.000 --> 00:37:57.000 Ooh. They needed. I know that a few of my colleagues were able to help with the proposal. Would that be a proposal? The writing, you know, the letter to the president, I know that a lot of the, a lot of my colleagues were able to assist with that. The letter, to get it to the president's office and, and make sure that it was in a… format. If that's the word I'm looking or a different word, but format, that would be looked at and not just pushed to the side, you know it, that made in such a way that, okay, we can't like, not just ignore this. So. That wasn't even your question. What was your question again? 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:06.000 You're answering it. What did the students feel they needed? And you were saying how the letters they were getting helped with that sort of thing. 00:38:06.000 --> 00:39:38.000 Yeah. And they needed to, they needed to know and needed to feel that what they were asking for was something that was needed and not just—something that was really needed and not just: we're asking just to be asking. And they needed that for them, you know? And there's more, and that's why now we're into cluster hire, because even the Black Student Center has been here for five years, going on five years, and we still are not where we should be at with faculty hiring, administrative hiring for the African Americans, you know, for the Blacks. We, there's definitely more that needs to be done, but that was a step in the right direction. But there's still more that needs to be done. 00:39:38.000 --> 00:40:01.000 Yeah. What did the university administration communicate was their vision? You mentioned it was more students. So what maybe what was their, what did they communicate? Was there a vision for the BSC? 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:06.000 Hm. I'm not sure how to answer that one. 00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:26.000 Okay. No problem. We can go on to the next one. Was there external or institutional pushback to the creation of the BSC, or did you experience or witness any pushback upon the creation of the Center within the Center or on social media? 00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:43.000 Hmm, not sure how to answer that either. I'm not really a social media person, I'm on Facebook, but I don't do the Instagram or, you know, so hmm. Was there pushback? 00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:44.000 Yeah. 00:40:44.000 --> 00:41:15.000 I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure there was pushback in the beginning, but I think it got to the point where, because I'm pretty sure that like this last group, it wasn't the first one to bring this up to the president and to administration. And now I'm not sure how to answer that question, Sierra. 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:25.000 No problem. Maybe. Did you, were you aware of any pushback from other groups of people to the creation of the Center or… 00:41:25.000 --> 00:42:25.000 Oh, that way. Yeah. Yeah we got pushback because then you have students start asking for white center. So, but I don't really know how to answer that question as far as pushback, what type of pushback? You know, there were students that, especially when they were talking about opening the Black Student Center, they, yeah. There were students like, we need this, we need that. Why are we having that? I mean you, you're going to have that, but how extensive that was, I can't answer that. 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:31.000 No problem. Were you at the BSC grand opening? 00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:37.000 Absolutely! It was wonderful. 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:44.000 How did you feel the first time you visited the Center once it opened? 00:42:44.000 --> 00:45:34.000 I felt pride. I felt overjoyed. I felt like now the students, and I'm looking at it from a student point of view, now the students can really feel like they have some place to call home here on campus. I felt, I felt prideful. I felt, yes! I felt like, okay, let's, let's do this. I felt as though the place was small and it was going to, it will be outgrown in two weeks, but it was the beginning, it was the beginning and the right direction. And I felt with what they had to, what they had to work with—‘cause I don't know how all of that stuff works. How do you find space on campus? And when you do that, and I know that when that was happening, they had to do away with another space that one of the student orgs had. It was, we had a like serenity type an office and then an area where you can go in and wash your feet before you go pray. And all of that, we had that area. And so they had to take that away. So I felt bad for those students because they were losing their space or they were sending them, giving them someplace else. But in order, it was just, I don't know. It was, you get rid of one in order to move one in and then it's still not really adequate, but it’s what you have. And at least you have something, you know, so I felt good about that. At least they have something and then maybe it can be expanded at a later time. But the mere fact that they did have a space, I felt very happy about that. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:42.000 That's amazing. What was the grand opening like? I want to hear that, more about that. 00:45:42.000 --> 00:48:11.000 We had speakers, the new director was hired at the time. Anthony Jett, he's no longer there. But the students, the Associated Students (Incorporated), they pretty much ran it. Not ran it (the Black Student Center), the program itself. They were the president of ASI, her name was Tiffaney. Her name is Tiffaney Boyd. They pretty much had a role. I'm trying to think. We had speakers there. It was like an open house where we were able to, first we were out in the amphitheater with just like a very nice program. And we toured, we had sororities from other campuses come and it was a big, festive event. And it was wonderful. There was all the students were so happy. It was wonderful. And, you know, I had on my little—kente, what did I wear? I was all gold. I was cute. I was cute that day! It was very festive. The president was there to cut the ribbon, and the students were all up there. I'm pretty sure I have some pictures somewhere from that time, but it was, it was a magical moment. It was wonderful. And it was in the (University) Student Union. The Student Union had just, I can't even remember time, but it was fairly new and like the perfect place for it to be. So by that time we had the Cross-Cultural Center, the Latin /x Center, the Gender Equity Center and the LGBTQ, no, no, no, the Pride Center. It's not LG. It's just called the Pride Center. So we had all those centers in our Student Union. And it was like, okay, this is what's it, this is happening! This is good. So I felt very prideful. 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:15.000 That sounds like so much fun. I wish I was there. 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:35.000 Then I walk in. ‘Cause you know, like I told you, me being who I am and stuff like that, I walked in. It's like: yeah, mama bear here! Hey! How y’all! You know, I walk in all loud and they sit behind their desk and it was just, it was like open arms. So it felt good. 00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:55.000 That is amazing. Now this is more about the early days of the BSC (Black Student Center). Tell us about the early focus of the BSC’s initiatives, like meaning programming, events, and their focus. 00:48:55.000 --> 00:51:55.000 We had some very good events. The focus was bringing Blackness and history and education to campus. I remember we had a event, a program with the Tulsa massacre. And I think we had an event with the founder of Kwanzaa. We had an event I think that year for the opening. I can't remember when we opened, but the, right after the opening, that first March was Women's History Month. So, the director made sure to recognize and honor all of the Black women at Cal State San Marcos. Faculty and staff, and to just, you know, recognize all of them. So it was a day set aside for that, which was wonderful. And I'm sure there's more events that I just can't think of off the top of my head right now, but it was like just going to those events, some were evening, some were during the noon hour. But going to those, it was like, Oh my God! You know, like even the Tulsa massacre, just like hearing about all of that. We had Black Panthers, it was an event where some of the members from Black Panthers was there. So, it was all about promoting history, Black history, and it was fabulous. It was just, it was good and it has continued but you know, now with this pandemic, it's been hard this last year, especially when we got our new director (John Rawlins III), I can see great things are coming. Great things will be coming, but just with this last year, things had to shift. Things had to change. But I think the pride in just educating Black history is his focus and goal and (he’s) doing a great job. 00:51:55.000 --> 00:52:28.000 That's so interesting. And I love that focused on Black history because oftentimes we aren't taught our correct history, you know, so it’s really important and awesome that they did that, especially so early on. Why was the Black Student Center moved from Student Success or Black excellence to Student Life? 00:52:28.000 --> 00:54:20.000 They, I don't know. They changed, well students, it used to be student. I don't know if necessarily changed. I think just the name changed. Changed because Student Life, what did they used to be called? SLL. Student—I'll have to look at one of my t-shirts to see what the SL is, but it's not necessarily changed because they've always been up under Student Affairs. They've always been part of Student Affairs and the student life center, all of this, not all of the centers—all of them have always been part of Student Affairs, but with, like the Pride Center and the Gender Equity Center was part of Associated Students (Incorporated), but then they branched off from Associated Students into Student Life. So that those twos’ kind of like move, but all the other ones have always been part of Student Life. So I'm not sure where that, that question you might have to check with director of the Black (Student) Center for more because I know that they just re- Student Life just, is it Student Life? They just recently changed their name. So they changed it to Student Life? They used to be. Yeah. See, I don't know. 00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:44.000 Okay. No problem. Were there any, or what are some of the wrinkles that had to be worked out in the early days of the Center? 00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:46.000 I don't know. 00:54:46.000 --> 00:55:21.000 Okay. No problem. We can go on to the next one. You actually mentioned this a bit, but the main purpose of the Center's creation was to, you know, have a, a place of community for the Black students on campus, place where they can learn about their history and just feel a sense of community. How do you feel like this purpose has been accomplished? Or do you think we're still working on working towards that? 00:55:21.000 --> 00:56:39.000 I think that yes, but there's still growth needed. And if that growth needed as far as more space, more support as far as like, employees to help, you know, yes, the students play a great role, but—a great important role—but students tend to leave. They graduate, they move on. And so, you know, to have like a strong foundation where you have a director and, you know, a couple coordinators or, like full-time staff there, would be helpful. I don't think I answered that question. So ask me that question again. 00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:52.000 You answered it, but I'll ask it again. You mentioned the main purpose. How do you feel like it's been accomplished already? That was the main question. 00:56:52.000 --> 00:57:19.000 Oh, yes. And no. I mean, yes, we accomplished because we have it, but there's going to always be more that needs to be done and more that can be done. So we're not finished, by no means are we finished. 00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:40.000 Thank you for that. Um, what has been the impact of the BSC on you personally? 00:57:40.000 --> 00:59:09.000 Just the mere fact of knowing that one piece has been accomplished. We got it. So now let's make use of it. Let's make it bigger and better. Let's do all that we can in order to keep promoting. Let's not stop. And even though, like I had mentioned a couple of the events, sometimes events need to be duplicated because you have a different audience, you know, you have new students, you have new freshmen, sophomores that probably wasn't here years ago to see some of the fruits from the events that took place earlier. So sometimes, sometimes things can be duplicated in order to continue the education, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think I'll stop there. 00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:12.000 Okay. 00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:14.000 Probably said to yourself, Lord have mercy. 00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:20.000 No, It’s been interesting and so amazing. 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:24.000 Thank you for making me feel good. 00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:40.000 No problem, it's true. Like I'm, I'm being serious cause I'm new to San Marcos. So all of this stuff is brand new to me, so I like hearing about it. What do you expect to see next for the BSC? 00:59:40.000 --> 01:03:21.000 I expect to see John (Rawlins III, Director of the Black Student Center) do amazing things. He has the energy, and he has the means to bring amazing, new and amazing things to campus. So I expect for—I expect to see some great energy and great education coming from the Center, especially once we get back to campus. Everything is just so, you don't really understand and realize the effect, because this is new to everybody, the effect that this pandemic has had on many, and you don't know cause, like I've realized during this pandemic that depression, loneliness and all of that, all of that stuff is real. And you don't know what individuals are going through. Especially students from like a virtual learning environment to, what if you’re the type of student that you're visual or you're hands on and you can't get that now. And so how is that impacting your ability to learn and to grasp and to understand and to move on from this. So I'm hoping to see great things once we are out of this pandemic and once we're able to move back to campus. And like I said, especially with the implementation of the cluster hiring, I'm hopeful that we're getting ready to get more Black faculty, possibly Black administrators here on campus. I really feel in my heart that our new president (Ellen Neufeldt) she's on her, just completed her—is she going on her second year or first year? But I think that coming this July, I think this will be her second year. I think she gets it. And I think that that is going to be all the difference in the world for Cal State San Marcos, to really, especially where we're centralized, where we are here in North County, North San Diego County to be a little bit more diverse. I think our president now gets it, understands it, believes it, feels it, and is gonna’ make sure that it happens. And I see that in the future. And I don't even know if that that was your question? 01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:23.000 It was my question! 01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:30.000 And I know I’m, saying that a lot so you know, you will have to cut that, but I'm just being me, Sierra. 01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:45.000 I love it. It's fine. And yes, you answered the question perfectly. Did you want to go back to that previous question about, how did you come to your understanding of Blackness? 01:03:45.000 --> 01:08:46.000 Hmm. I'll use this as an example. I came to my understanding of Blackness when my son was in the second grade. And like I told you, by this time I'm in Oakland and the school is not predominantly white at the time. You know, it was getting to be a mixture, but I started having problems with my son in school with this teacher, I'm getting phone calls every single day, every day about him doing this, him doing that, you know. What I think what hurt the most is when I had to go to the school to have a conversation with the principal because on my son's report card, the teacher wrote on there that he has, how did she phrase that? Animalistic behavior or something, something she said in that sense? And I'm like, whoa, that was you know, or is she calling my son an animal? Why teacher? But that made me realize, well, how can you put something like this on an important document? And it was one of those situations where I'm constantly getting calls, I'm taking off work, I'm going to class, I'm going to school, I'm doing everything that I needed to be doing. And then for her to put something like that. So I think at that point, it's like, is she calling my son out as a you know, is this because he's Black? And I'm using this as an example because I'm trying to think of how did I come to my real realization of Blackness, of being Black. And that took me for a loop. Later on I began to realize, later on—my son is 38 now. So I'm saying this was back in second grade. I think back then, my son realized at the time that he can get to this teacher and now thinking back on it, I think that she was afraid of my son. A second grader! How old are you? How old are you that? So I have a granddaughter who is seven in the first grade. So you're like, eight, and for teacher to be afraid of a eight-year-old child at that time. And then to say things like that. So naturally I went to the principal's office and I wanted him moved. I wanted him moved out her class because I didn't think that that was healthy. And you know, for him, definitely not, for me, it just, it was like one of those that sent me back like, wow. And that's kinda’ like the only thing that I can kind of like think of right now, coming back to that. But yeah, I think that, that time she was afraid of him and didn't know how to articulate it and but to articulate like that is demeaning. And that let me know that something wasn’t right with her to feel that way and to put that, you know, he ended up—he's married. He’s doing well. He ended up being, he's like one of those giant, what do you call them? Who's real quiet. Quiet giants or no that's not, what's that saying? 01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:47.000 A gentle giant? 01:08:47.000 --> 01:09:29.000 Yes, thank you! And that he ended up that for that's how he is now. He’s about six two, and just so gentle, soft-spoken and it was like, you know. But anyway, sorry, that's the only thing that I can think of. I'm pretty sure as soon as we, soon as we end, this is like a whole bunch of things are going to pop up and say, you should have told her this, you should have said this, but right now? I'm not, I'm not feeling any of it. I don't have the words are just not there. 01:09:29.000 --> 01:09:48.000 That's fine. And I'm glad you guys are good now, but I'm so sorry that happened to you and your son at the time. And I just hate that, you know, as Black people coming into our Blackness always has a, there's always a hand in trauma and you know, discrimination. 01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:52.000 Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. 01:09:52.000 --> 01:10:01.000 Yeah. But thank you for sharing. And my last question is, are there any questions that I should have asked that I didn't? 01:10:01.000 --> 01:13:14.000 You asked some pretty tough questions, Sierra. They were good, but they were tough. And I just hope, I only hope that I'm not a good, um, it's so funny. I'm not a good public speaker. I'm not a good interviewer. And it's so funny that I'm saying that to say, when I came to work for Associated Students (Incorporated) on campus, probably the first year we have a faculty staff association, African-American Faculty Staff Association that has since been renamed. It used to be African-American Faculty, Staff Association, AAFSA, but once the Black Student Center came on board, they renamed it to Black Faculty Staff Association to be more in alignment, more in unison with, we had the Black Student Union, which was a student, which is a student organization. Then we got the Black faculty staffs no, the Black Student Center. And so then that's when they wanted to rename AAFSA to the Black Faculty Staff Association. But back then, when I first came to Associated Students (Incorporated), they needed a president for the African-American Faculty Staff Association. And because, you know, we're, our numbers. We're just. Multiple people have served that role before, but you're just so limited that after I was there for like about a year, they asked me to do it. And of course, I no! I can't be no president, president, no! And it's so funny because a lot of my colleagues, you know: we're here for you, we'll be here, blah-blah-blah. So I said yes, ended up in that role for two years. And with that is like, when we would have functions or a recognition ceremony, we have our signature, soulful luncheon, all those things I'm up on that podium, it's like just the, nervous as all get out. I can't do this, I can't do this. And then you get me up on that podium with that microphone. And I just wouldn't be quiet. I'm just up there just blah-blah-blah-blah. You know? And it just, for whatever event it was, it was wonderful. It was wonderful. So it's like, why am I even telling you, why am I even saying this? I don't even know why? I brought it up for a reason, I lost my train of thought, but—I don't know Sierra. And like I say, when I get off this call, I'm going to say, yeah, I knew that's why I was bringing it up. I brought that up for a reason, but I don’t know. 01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:19.000 Oh my goodness. 01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:26.000 I think we need to end this while I am ahead. If I am ahead. (laughter) 01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:30.000 You're doing so good, don’t doubt yourself. 01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:32.000 Just being myself. 01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:35.000 Alright then. 01:13:35.000 --> 01:13:40.000 Well, I appreciate you taking the time out with me. Hopefully your other interviews will go smoothly. 01:13:40.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Oh my gosh, this one went perfectly and thank you for taking your time for me as well and this project as a whole. And your input is so important to this project and just thank you. And now I'm going to stop recording. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05.xml McWilliamsMarilyn_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-05.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource McWilliams, Marilyn. Interview April 5th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Marilyn McWilliams retired after 23 years at California State University San Marcos, where she most recently was the Administrative Assistant for the Office of Inclusive Excellence. McWilliams has been particularly active in advocacy and assistance to underrepresented communities on campus, and has been recognized by the Black Student Union at their awards night, named a Civility Champion, and received the Jonathan Pollard Award for social justice through student affairs. In her interview, McWilliams gives an in-depth account of her Black Experience starting with her childhood. McWilliams considers her childhood connection to education and how that led her to an administrative role at California State University San Marcos. McWilliams also discusses the CSUSM Black Student Center, her function in a supportive capacity, and the important role students' advocacy played in the creation of the Center. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-09 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Marilyn McWilliams Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource Anti-Black racism California State University San Marcos -- Staff California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Office of Inclusive Excellence Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Marilyn McWilliams Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/112b21d9155ea35c00877f0832c5a9a6.pdf be319453aba0694528cf6ede19e42c5e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyland, Mark. Interview transcript, April 10, 2024 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree & Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. This oral history interview was made possible by the Ellie Johns Foundation stewarded by the Rancho Santa Fe Library Guild. It was created as part of CSUSM's University Library/History Department internship in oral history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mark Wyland Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-04-10 Subject The topic of the resource Bills, Legislative California. Legislature. Assembly California. Legislature. Senate International relations Legislation -- California Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido Oral history Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century School boards -- California -- Escondido Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) California Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Mark Wyland License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10_transcript Community history History Department internship Politics and governance Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ryan Willis Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Wyland OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. American politics;California government;State Assembly;California Senate;Oral history in classrooms OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Wyland, Mark. Interview, April 10, 2023 SC027-38 02:30:04 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation and was created as part of the CSUSM University Library and History Department Internship in Oral History. csusm Politics and government -- 20th century ; Politics and government -- 21st century ; School boards -- California -- Escondido ; Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido ; California. Legislature. Assembly ; California. Legislature. Senate ; International relations ; Bills, Legislative ; Legislation -- California ; Oral history American politics ; California government ; State Assembly ; California Senate ; Oral history in classrooms Mark Wyland Ryan Willis .wav WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/064306702b5e232aff51531efbfa8101.wav Other audio English 0 Family history / Upbringing / Early career Mark Wyland begins the interview by discussing his family history. His maternal grandparents had moved to San Diego in 1925 and his grandfather was an Escondido city councilman and a supervisor for North County. His grandfather, father, and uncle also began a lumber and building materials business, which is still in operation today. Wyland also explains that he grew up in Escondido and attended Escondido High School. After high school, he attended Pomona College and studied International Relations. He further explains how he later worked for the City of New York on school construction while in graduate school before returning home to join the family lumber and plywood business. He adds that he stayed with the family business for twenty years. San Diego (Calif.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; New York (NY) ; lumber and plywood business ; family business ; Ponoma College ; International Relations 0 347 The teachers who inspired Wyland Mark Wyland recounts the teachers in his life who made an impact on his upbringing. He credits many teachers from his childhood and teenage years, such as his fourth grade and eighth grade teachers, Mrs. Stevens and Mrs. Von Bergen, as well as his German teacher, Bob Maywald. Wyland later studied abroad in Germany due to his positive experience in Maywald’s class. He also credits his high school speech teacher, Cliff Summerall, for inviting him to join the debate team and sparking his interest in politics. He also briefly discusses joining the family business and the importance of solving problems in a competitive market. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; School ; Teachers ; Fourth grade ; Eighth grade ; High school ; Study abroad programs ; Debate teams ; Family business 0 842 Managing the family business Mark Wyland reflects on how running the family business shaped him as a person. He explains how being involved in the decision-making of the business made him realize that he was analytical and wanted to solve problems, which would be later prove beneficial to him when he entered politics. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; Lumber and plywood business ; Family business ; Problem solving ; Politics 0 1058 Semester abroad program in Germany Wyland recounts his semester abroad program in Germany when he was an undergraduate student at Pomona College. Wyland explains that he lived with a family for a month in the small town of Nördlingen. He lived with a family consisting of a husband and wife, their daughter, and their granddaughter, who was also a university student. He discusses the history of his host family, explaining how they had lived through World War I and had opposed Hitler. He then explains that he later was awarded a Fulbright scholarship to Germany after graduating with his Bachelor’s degree and spent a year there studying Germany policy. He reflects that both of these experiences in Germany, as well as the politics surrounding the Vietnam War, influenced his decision to enter into politics. Germany ; Nördlingen ; Study abroad programs ; Ponoma College ; Host family ; World War I ; Hitler ; Nazi Germany ; Vietnam War ; Politics ; Decision to enter politics 0 1683 School board race Mark Wyland explores his time running for the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board. Wyland describes the experience as “brutal” and “contentious.” He discusses incidents that happened during his time on the school board, such as a large portion of the board organizing to remove a Hispanic superintendent. He also describes campaigning to implement English education for Hispanic students in classroom curriculums during his first school board race. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; School board race ; School board ; School board politics ; Board of Education ; Escondido Union School Board ; English education curriculums ; Hispanic population 0 2124 California State Assembly race Mark Wyland discusses his time running for the California State Assembly in 2000. He reflects that the race was far more political than he had originally anticipated. Wyland describes a conflict during the race between himself and the then-assemblyman. Wyland explains that the then-assemblyman did not agree with Wyland’s previous Democratic politics and had raised money for lobbyists to go against Wyland. California State Assembly ; Politics ; Political campaign ; Primary election ; Democrats ; Republicans ; Lobbyists 0 2542 Becoming California Senator Mark Wyland discusses his time as California Senator. Wyland represented District 38 from 2006 to 2014. Wyland reflects on his early start in the Senate and how he had an interest in education reform. He also learned early on in his career that the state government is organized similar to Congress in terms of its parties, caucuses, committees, and the floor. He also explores how he found government to be much more partisan than he originally expected. He also contemplates the topic of term limits, explains the difference between state and federal laws, and discusses politicians who had abused their power. Politics ; California State Senate ; California Senator ; District 38 ; Education reform ; Organization of state government ; Partisan government ; Term limits ; State and federal laws 0 3297 The U.S. educational system Mark Wyland discusses the educational system in the United States, with an emphasis on the importance on vocational schools. He first explains the history of vocational schools, beginning with skilled apprenticeships during the Middle Ages. He also reflects on the disadvantages of the dismantling of vocational schools in the U.S., including the loss of students learning practical skills, the demoralizing of students’ drive for learning, and the increase in student loan debt. School ; Educational system ; Educational system in the U.S. ; Vocational schools ; Apprenticeships 0 4333 What makes Wyland a unique Senator Mark Wyland responds to a quote from Senator Darrell Steinberg, who referred to Wyland as a “Republican romantic.” Wyland explains that he has a great deal of respect for Steinberg and finds the quote to be flattering. Wyland also discusses the difficulty of making progress in politics and the public educating themselves in governmental matters. Politics ; Senator Darrell Steinberg ; Republicans ; Making progress in politics 0 4569 Goals as a politician Mark Wyland first reflects on the general public’s view on politics. He believes that the public does not understand politics the way they should and that many do not make informed decisions when voting. Wyland explains that it is important for the public to be critical of their government, and he provides an example of the importance of being critical of governmental spending. He also states that his goal as a politician is to provide better quality government and to help the people in becoming better informed citizens. He also states his concern over the media’s biased coverage of political matters. Politics ; Goals as a politician ; General public's view on politics ; Making informed voting decisions ; Being critical of government spending ; Media's biased coverage of politics ; Newspapers 0 5771 Objectivity in politics Mark Wyland discusses objectivity in politics. He views objectivity as an ideology, which he perceives as problematic because he believes it is too rigid of a view. Wyland explains that in his opinion, political knowledge and discussion should be more pragmatic. He also states that it is important to understand life’s complex problems and to use our power to solve them. Wyland also reflects on the importance of humility and on society coming together and respecting one another’s point-of-view. Politics ; Objectivity ; Objectivity in politics 0 6484 San Diego energy bills Mark Wyland discusses a few of the energy-related bills that he wrote. Wyland explains that one of these bills was in response to the blackout crisis of 2000 and SDG&amp ; E’s increased price of natural gas. The bill was eventually vetoed by Gray Davis. San Diego (Calif.) ; Energy bills ; Blackouts ; Blackout crisis ; SDG&amp ; E ; Public Utilities Commission ; Municipal Utility District ; Natural gas ; Gray Davis ; Politics 0 7050 Promoting oral history/ Oral history bills Mark Wyland discusses his efforts in promoting oral history in classroom curriculums. He first explains how he learned to appreciate oral history learning through his own grandfather and the grandfather from his host family in Germany and their talent for storytelling. Wyland also discusses the bills that he wrote to emphasize and encourage the use of oral history in the classroom. These bills include creating curriculums that would incorporate oral history testimonies involving World War II, the Korea and Vietnam Wars, and the history of genocide. Oral history ; History ; Politics ; Classroom curriculums ; Oral history bills ; World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War ; The history of Genocide 0 8078 Romanticizing history/ Closing of interview Mark Wyland discusses the issue of romanticizing history in the classroom and in American society. Wyland uses the change over time in how Indigenous and Mexican history are taught in classrooms as examples. Wyland closes the interview by stating that politicians could not do their jobs without the help and support of the public. He adds that the American people deserve to feel good about who they vote into office, even if they do not agree with every decision that they make. History ; Romanticizing history ; Indigenous history ; Mexican history ; Classroom curriculums ; Politics ; Relationship between politicians and voters 0 Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree &amp ; Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:30.000 Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing former California Senator Mark Wyland for the California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections Oral History project. Today is Monday, April 10th, 2023. The time is 2:32 PM and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Mr. Wyland, thank you so much for interviewing with me today. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.000 You're very welcome, Ryan. Please call me Mark. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:55.000 You got it, Mark. Appreciate that (both laugh). So obviously you have a very rich and impressive resume when it comes to education and politics, so definitely going to get into all of that during this interview. But I want to start off by asking you about your upbringing and your family background. Because I definitely believe that's important to bring up. First off, when and where were you born? 00:00:55.000 --> 00:02:11.000 Well, I was actually born in San Diego at Mercy Hospital, which is still there. It's part of the Scripps Network now. And Escondido at the time, I'm not sure it really had a full-service hospital, but I grew up in Escondido. My maternal grandparents had moved there in 1925 and they had a business, a plumbing business. And after the war, meaning World War II, my maternal grandfather, Brian Sweet, who had been an Escondido city councilman and also a supervisor for North County, he started a business with my dad and my uncle, and it was a lumber and building material supply business, pine tree lumber. It still exists. It's not in our family, but based in Escondido. And so, I grew up there, went to Escondido High School. When here we are in San Marcos--San Marcos didn't have a high school (laughs). 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:12.000 Right. 00:02:12.000 --> 00:05:25.000 They went to Escondido. And then I went to college in Pomona College, which is in Claremont, California, where they have a group of colleges, the Claremont Colleges. I got interested in--studied International Relations, which is foreign affairs. I spent a year after college on a grant in Germany. And then I was in graduate school in New York studying to be a professor of international affairs. But I'd gone straight through and I, you know, it was kind of a time as a young man where I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. I'm not a city guy. I hated New York (laughs) because I grew up in rural Escondido, basically in an avocado grove. And so, I ended up--I got a lot out of that program--but I ended up working for the university. And then I worked for the City of New York on school construction of all things. And I was very close to my grandfather, and he wanted me to come back and join the family business. I thought I would never do that. But he had had a stroke and I was very close to him, and I was sick of New York, and I thought, “Well, I'll just interrupt the program.” You know, I can always go back, and something that was important and played out later: I wrote a master's thesis on a topic that really interested me. Basically, it was how people see the world, their worldview. And so I came back, I thought it would be here a year, and I ended up staying. And this was a business I'd worked in summers as a kid, and I'd done every job, you know, manual labor, loading lumber, driving forklifts, driving trucks. I'd done all that. And I ended up doing that for, my gosh, almost twenty years. And that also had a big impact on learning how to solve problems. And my dad, who's extraordinary, I learned a great deal from him--unfortunately, passed away fairly young, but I always had this interest in what we might call “public policy.” And I always had this interest in schools. And I had tried early on in that job, they had an opening on the high school board, not an election-appointed one. I tried to get that. I didn't get that (laugh). 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:26.000 Right. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:12:11.000 And so, it turned out there was another opening on the Escondido Union Board, which is K-8. And I applied for that and got it. And the rest is history. And we can talk about that. And I know we have questions. I would like a shout out though to a few Escondido teachers who really made a big difference. And first, my fourth-grade teacher. Believe it or not, I lived in old, it was in town then--Central School. Mrs. Stevens, who told stories about when she was living in Mexico City and married to her husband who's Mexican. Really interesting stories. And I thought, you know, that's a different culture, and that's pretty interesting. And then I had this wonderful eighth grade teacher for social studies, Mrs. Von Bergen. It didn't hurt that I had a crush on her (Willis laughs). Oh my gosh. And in eighth grade in California, you spend a lot of time on the Civil War. And again, she really piqued my curiosity because I remember learning that it wasn't just simple. It was more complicated between the North or the South. And we actually--that was the first time I had to write a term paper, which I found later, I still have. And it's, you know, it's not very well done, but it's eighth grade (Willis laughs). And I realized between what I was trying to write was--this is really interesting: the North was industrialized and the South was agricultural, and there are all these other cross currents. And then when I was a sophomore in high school, the speech teacher, Clifford Summerall, he was invited to go into a class where students were giving oral reports, and I gave one. And I was pretty good at that. So, he asked me to join their debate team, and they had tournaments. And these are national. And all kinds of speaking ; humorous speeches. I've forgotten the categories. And they had a national topic, which I don't think they do that anymore. They still have speech, but it tends to be more impromptu where you learn about a whole bunch of things and they say, what do you think about--whatever it might be? And that era was a national topic, and the topic that first--yeah, I was fifteen, a sophomore, right, was “Should we strengthen NATO?” Well, that was sixty years ago, (Willis laughs), and it's as current today as it was then. And what made it--why it had such a big impact was they gave you the materials and you had the same topic for the whole year. So, while my friends are--and I don't mean to diminish this, you have to do it, but it's, you know, they're reading chapter eight and answering the questions and the tests on Friday kind of thing--I'm learning about post-World War II and the Soviet Union and their march and to those eastern European states, all this really adult stuff. And because at a tournament, they would assign you different sides--you're for or against--so you really had to learn about the issue. And what fascinated me was: it's not that simple. There are arguments for it and against it, and you don't know for sure how it's going to work out. A lot of the people doing debate, you could tell were going to be future lawyers. You know, I had my kind of sport coat and a tie, and I had to laugh in retrospect, some of them would, you know, their kids would come in like these dark, you know, suits, and they would try all these tricks. It was about winning. But for me it was like, “What's the answer?” And then the next year, the question was, “Should we increase federal aid to education?” Again, it's as current today as it was then. And so you had to look at a lot of analyses and statistics. So Cliff Summerall gave me a gift. He's still alive, he's in his nineties. I met him on a plane from Sacramento by sitting down to him--I'd forgotten. And I thanked him in some detail. And according to his wife, he was very moved. He gave me a real gift. And then I had a couple of other iconic teachers, anyone of a certain age will remember John Georges. English teacher who had been a Marine in the South Pacific and World War II. And a German teacher, Bob Maywald, who was German and had as a teenager gotten here after the war. So those are local people that really made a difference. But--and I ended up majoring in International Relations because really of that interest. 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:12.000 Right. 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:21.000 And ended up spending the year in Germany, because I had a really good German teacher. So, when I got to college, that was pretty easy. 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:22.000 Yeah. 00:12:22.000 --> 00:13:43.000 So, I can stop there. One of the thing I do want to add, when I ended up coming back here and being in the business ; the building material supply, especially lumber and plywood, mostly for houses, it's a commodity. And it's very competitive, because, how do you say, “Well, our two by four is better than their two by four?” And so, it has to be not only the quality of the lumber, but the service and that sort of thing. And prices change really fast, and you really have to be on top of it, but you have to--it's not a business you can just let go by. And so, every day you have to know what you're selling, if there's a problem, if your competitor is undercutting you, and you have to get on it to solve the problem. Many of our competitors went under because you--and so I learned that you have to solve problems. You can't ignore them, and you better get after it. 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:44.000 Right. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:14:02.000 So, I'll just stop there. I guess I had been doing that for, I don't know, twenty years, somewhere in that neighborhood. But I wanted to do something else. I was interested in education, and that's why I went for that school board appointment. 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:16.000 Yeah, I was going to ask for the family business that anybody within your family tried to push you to stay in that line of work, or were they more open to you doing other things? 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.000 My dad, had he lived, would've been very encouraging, I think. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.000 Yeah. 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:35.000 And I learned that his dad, who had passed away before I was born, who I thought was just a quiet engineer type, turns out he was fascinated with international affairs. 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:36.000 Oh. 00:14:36.000 --> 00:15:01.000 Would read newspapers. That was during the Roosevelt era. My--I was in the business with my cousin and I were running it, and his dad was still there, but my cousin and I were running that, and I think they thought I was crazy (both laugh). Which is what a lot of people think, you know, it's conflict and-- 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:02.000 Yeah. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:06.000 It's thankless, which it pretty much is. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:17.000 (laughs) Right, I was going to say, pretty much what it sounds like. So, but it really sounds like that business really helped shape who you became and it really helped you when it came to getting into politics. 00:15:17.000 --> 00:16:07.000 Yeah. What it did was, I always had this analytical bent and, you know, to go from college and think about a PhD and all that, you have to be very analytical. But what it added was: you better identify a problem and you better fix it, because if you wait it was very unforgiving. You know, there are businesses where, you know, it's just steady. And, and it wasn't like that. When I started out there were probably twenty lumber yards in San Diego County, and when we finally sold it in early 2000s there were basically two. 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:08.000 Right. 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:18.000 So. And so when I got into government, I wanted to solve problems, I wanted to analyze them and let's fix them. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:19.000 Right. 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:21.000 That's kind of hard to do (laughs). 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:28.000 Yeah. Right. Were you involved at all in that decision to sell the family business? 00:16:28.000 --> 00:17:36.000 Yeah, it was hard because, you know, the older generation who passed away, my cousin and I were running it, we--each of us had a sister who were not involved. And it's hard because he and I had grown up doing it. And our sisters, they weren't living locally, and they were all in favor of it. And this is very common in family businesses. You get different interests. So, but I was already in government, in the legislature, and he was frustrated and I had to say, “You're the guy there,” you know? So. But I actually think ultimately, actually, he regretted it. On the other hand, when it's a family business and you don't have people to hand it down to, and we had daughters and who--which is not a problem--but they weren't interested in it. 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.000 Right. 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:38.000 So. 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:49.000 Right. Gotcha. So, going back, you said you spent a year in Germany. What was that experience like for you? 00:17:49.000 --> 00:20:07.000 Pomona had a semester abroad program. And in that program--which I think is the best way to do it, but it, these programs don't exist--you lived with a family for a month, and I happened to live with a family in southern Germany, a little town, Nördlingen, a little town in Bavaria. And I lived in a family that was the age of my grandparents and their daughter and their granddaughter, who was in her early twenties and was at the university. And it turns out that they had lived through World War I, he was in World War I, but never fought, but in the military ; went through hyperinflation in Germany ; the rise of Hitler, whom he strongly opposed. And he was working in the local government of this town, and they said, “Well, if you're working here, you have to sign up to join the Nazi party.” And it almost brings tears to my eyes. He wouldn't do it. And I thought so many times, you know, it's so easy for us in this country to say, “Well, they should do this or that.” And I've often wondered, would I have had the courage? All it was was signing a paper, they weren't making him do anything. Would I really have had the courage of my conviction? But he did. And it was during the war, and so they made him--Germany had taken over Czechoslovakia, so they made him move and go to Czechoslovakia. I mean, they kind of--that was his punishment. And he was there until the very end of the war. When they came back basically on a wagon, walking, he had lost so much weight, he said people he'd grown up with didn't recognize him. 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:08.000 Wow. 00:20:08.000 --> 00:22:15.000 So, and I just really got along with them. And they had had a son who was drafted at the end of the war into the German military. He was only sixteen (years old). They were taking kids. And the last time they saw him, they argued about the war because they were against the war. They were against Hitler. And, whatever people may think, there were plenty who didn't like Hitler. And they argued and their son said, “Well, our lieutenant tells us that Führer has this new weapon and we're going to win.” He was a kid, right. Sixteen. And that was the last time they saw him. He was stationed near Berlin, and the Russians came in and, and so I think part of it was here was this young guy, I was only like nineteen or twenty (years old), and I think we got along and I think it was almost like here was their son that they lost. So we became really close. So that was my junior year. And then my senior year, my mentor--who later became famous--he had had a Fulbright, which was a scholarship, to Germany. And he said, “Mark, you should apply for this.” So I did. And lo and behold, I got it (laughs). So it was kind of a rough year. Because, again, I was graduated and I still didn't know what I wanted to do, but, so I spent the year in Germany studying German foreign policy. And that's one of the reasons I know so much about, a lot about Germany and the society and the culture and all that sort of thing. 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:34.000 Right, right. That's fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. So, it sounds like, as far as what motivated you or pushed you in the direction of politics, a lot of it sounds like it was self-interest to begin with, but I know you also mentioned that the Vietnam War had a huge influence as well. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that? 00:22:34.000 --> 00:23:39.000 It did. I was of that era, which is only probably about five or six, seven years. And they, we had the draft which they ended, I think 1973 or something like that. And I was never in the service, but it affected the whole country, families, and it affected all the young men. And that's what I, what I ended up studying and writing about, and I'm still interested in the same thing, is: how people saw the world. How do you, in international affairs, the thing that's interesting to me is everyone wants peace, peace and prosperity, all over the world. That's what people want. 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.000 Yep. 00:23:41.000 --> 00:28:03.000 And how did the decisions come about to say we need to engage militarily? And I have enormous respect for all those who fought there. And there are people from Escondido whose names are not along the wall in Washington, but in the park around the state capitol, there is a monument with the names of every Californian who was killed there. It's kind of emotional. Oscar Cruz, I'd grown up with Oscar Cruz ; he's on that wall. And I've forgotten his first name. One of the Durbin boys, I didn't know him, but they were a well-known family in Escondido, the Durbins. And I think what happened was we had kind of a Cold War mentality, which was: if you--they remembered so clearly what happened, the lesson that all those people make in those policies. You had Lyndon Johnson, you had (David) Dean Rust, the Secretary of State, you had McNamara, Secretary of Defense, you had the National Security Advisor McGeorge Bundy. All of them were of the era where they had grown up in the ‘20s and then the Depression, and went from the Depression into World War II. And they knew the cost and they had lost people. And so, the lesson was the lesson of--and, I can't recall the British politician's name who earned peace in our time in Munich--and the lesson was just like, from Hitler, you have to fight them. You can't let them gain. And it's really what's playing out right now, even though it's not our people there, but in Ukraine with Russia. And I didn't think that lesson applied very well to Vietnam. But what I wrote about was Dean Rusk, who was Secretary of State, and all the different elements of his worldview. And what I think happens to people in general is you get a kind of a take on something. And pretty soon, well, that's just the way it is. You know, if I am, I could be a doctor--and, you know, there are these debates now about diets, for example, and you get--you know, these are smart, highly trained people, and they have, “Well, this is what you should eat or not eat,” or whatever it might be. And it's the same thing with solving all the problems that we have. And I worked a lot on education. “Well, this is what you do.” If you, if you want to teach, make sure English learners, and we have a lot of them in California who speak a different language at home. “If you want to make sure they learn English, this is the way you do.” And what I learned through those experiences is you can have some ideas, but take in new information and make sure that--and always be open. And in international affairs, you make decisions, but you don't know how they're going to turn out. And that's part of the interest and the tragedy of it. So, in the case of Vietnam--and I identified a dozen, maybe twenty different aspects of the worldview, how they saw things. And I don't think they really had thought it all through. 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:38.000 Right. I know in the short amount of time in getting to know you, Mark, you are extremely passionate about education. And you were a member of the California State Assembly, and you served on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board. You told me essentially that school board politics were just plain ugly. And that's putting it extremely lightly. What made school board politics just so ruthless? 00:28:38.000 --> 00:32:04.000 It was brutal. Brutal. Well, later on, when I represented half a million people in the (California State) Assembly and later on in the (State) Senate, a million people, which is more than a member of Congress, I dealt with many different school districts and cities. And what I learned about local government: they can vary greatly. You can have one city where everything is smooth. The city council, a school board, and you cross the line, and the city council and the school board are contentious. And at that point, on the Escondido Board, it was very contentious. And they had hired a new superintendent who was Hispanic. And then I think the district was probably two-thirds Hispanic. Now, it's probably at least three-quarters. And many, maybe most, came to school with either imperfect or no English. And they had hired this guy, but there was a group that opposed him. And they were organized and included some of the administrators and some of the people opposed me because I was appointed. And they thought their person was robbed. And it was very organized. And they had--it was organized politically to get rid of him. And we would have these meetings, you know, the state legislature, few people know this, but if you want to show up on a bill and you show up in the committee on the day a bill is heard, almost always, I mean, rarely it's not, they will ask, “Is there anyone else who wants to testify on this bill?” You can go right up there and testify. You can lobby all the people, send them letters, meet with them. But almost no one does it. But when it's in local government, they do. And we had some board meetings that, well, they were quite raucous. And I'll never forget one (laughs) where this--she came up and she wasn't--she had made some good points, and she had, and there's no dias. It was just same level. We're just behind the table. And she said, “I've got--you all deserve pink slips.” And she had little pink pieces of paper. And that was what you gave someone--you used to get that if you're going to get fired or laid off. And she plunked down in front of us a pink piece of paper saying, “You're fired.” You know, I can laugh about it, but it was awfully serious. And ultimately for a variety of other reasons we decided to part with that superintendent. But there were people working for the district who unfairly, I thought, suffered. And because they were seen as, you know, on the wrong side. 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:11.000 Right. Did that at least prepare you though, for the next step in your career? Which we're going to get to next as far as— 00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:12.000 No. 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:13.000 Being elected into the Senate? 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:17.000 No, because I couldn't believe it would be like that. 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.000 Gotcha. 00:32:18.000 --> 00:35:22.000 I couldn't believe. But it was. And I'll tell you one funny story which illustrates it. I had a very contentious election. And this is important: we had two newspapers. This ties right into how we solve the problem of people feeling better about the government. We had The San Diego Union Tribune, and we had the North County Times, and they were robust, and they covered--The San Diego Union Tribune had, just on the editorial side, in addition to reporters, had a full-time editorial guy covering North County. And the North County Times did a great job. They covered school board meetings. They would editorialize about when we had these contentions about the school board. They had columnists who wrote about the school board. And people read the paper and they got a lot of information. And that's unfortunately no longer the case. So, what I--I had been very interested in this problem of Hispanic students learning English, because I knew their futures and the future of the state--you know, there are the immigration debates--but the fact is they were here. And I knew that their future and the future of the state depended upon them acculturating and being able to get good jobs, et cetera. So, I thought, “This can't be that hard.” And I thought--it's very naïve--I thought, “Escondido can be a model for the whole state.” Because it's small enough we can fix this. And that's kind of the business guy’s approach. Here's a problem, we need to jump in there and fix it. And it turns out in education, there are all these ideologies about how you teach reading and how you teach math. The business approach, which is, I think most people’s, is more pragmatic: I don't care. Let's just see what works. Well, it turned out, with all this contention, it was really hard. And I thought, and these mandatory tests were coming down from the state--which I thought were actually helpful--and I thought, “That's the place to fix this.” And that race was also brutal, that first race. But I don't need to, unless you want to, to get into it (laughs). 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.000 (laughs) It's up to you. 00:35:24.000 --> 00:40:12.000 Well, I--you know, I ended up leaving graduate school with a master's and not going back for the PhD, but I think I got a PhD in practical politics. I was pretty naive. You know what, I'll tell you a little bit about that race, a little about that first year, and then maybe we can pause and figure out where you want to go next. I never--first of all, it was a primary. Primary of 2000 and the primary of 2000--and I was a Republican who had been a Democrat. And again, it was pragmatism. I just ended up agreeing with more of the Republican policies and fewer of the Democratic. But it was always pragmatic. What's the best answer to the problem? So, in that time--it's not the same now--but in that time, North County, and that's the district is, oh, 450--475,000 people. A congressional (district) then was around, I think 700,000 just to give--and a state senate (district) was just short of a million. And it was most of North County, big chunk of North County. And it was very conservative. So, whoever won the Republican primary was probably going to win the general election. So, I ended up starting out with a--I got some help to do this. You have to get help, really. And through that--consultant is what they call them. I ended up hiring a campaign manager who turned out to be a crook, a straight up crook! But he hadn't vetted him enough. So (laughs), so then, we--and there were seven or eight people in the race, which actually makes it easier because all you need is a plurality, not a majority. So, I ended up--that consultant, we parted ways and I got a very capable consultant. Some states just have a campaign manager--I had a consultant and a manager--and they design the race. And a key part of it is communication by mail. When you see TV ads, that's really expensive, and only a few campaigns have the money to do that. Same thing with radio. And in that era radio was going strong. So, you had radio, TV, ads, and mail. And so we were going along with issues that we thought were helpful. One's kind of a profile where you introduced the person. I was still reasonably well known in Escondido. They were still old guard. My family had been there forever. And I was at that point, president of the school board. And then, the then-assemblyman who was termed out, he didn't want me. He liked control. And he had picked someone that he thought he could control. So he was against me, which is hard because he raised money from lobbyists to go against me. And he discovered that when I was a Democrat, I had given money to Democrats. I'd given money to Al Gore in 1988. Well, in a primary you get the most intense voters. So having given money to Al Gore, to a good loyal Republican would be like in a Democratic race, having given money to Trump or Bush when they want Obama, it's like (Willis laughs) this can't work! 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:13.000 Yeah. 00:40:13.000 --> 00:41:44.000 And you can't explain in a short campaign, you can't--the explanation was at that point--and I still believe now, you need two strong parties, which are reasonable. Well, Al Gore in 1988, I thought was pretty reasonable. I was a Republican, but I also wanted a reasonable Democrat. And he was running as a moderate Southern Democrat (laughs). Well, you can't explain that to people because it's ten, twelve years later. And by then he had changed. So anyway, it cut down my margin and I managed to squeak out a victory. Only because they--if they'd had more money, and money does play, people hate it, but it's like marketing. It's like, if you represent Coca-Cola and I've got “New Great Coke,” and you have a million dollars of marketing and name ID, and everyone likes Coke, and I've got a little amount to say, “Hey, this new stuff is really good,” it doesn't matter. And so they didn't have enough, and I squeaked it out. I think I got less than twenty percent of the vote. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.000 Oh, wow. 00:41:45.000 --> 00:42:02.000 I barely made it. And there was another guy on that race who was the mayor of Encinitas, Jim Bond. And he was on the ballot as James Bond. And the James Bond movie had just come out like few months before. 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:04.000 Oh man. 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:09.000 (laughs) And I, so I just barely squeaked it out. 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Gotcha. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:22.000 And I was not prepared. It was intensely political, more than I expected, but I wasn't really prepared for it. 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:40.000 That's fascinating. So as far as the Senate, you represented District 38 from 2006 to 2014. Is that correct? (Wyland nods) So what was that moment like when you got into the Senate? Do you remember how you felt? 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.000 Well, yeah. Let me give you, let me go back a little bit. 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.000 Yeah. 00:42:45.000 --> 00:49:26.000 Because I could talk about growing up in Escondido in that era for a long time, but we've got hundreds, if not thousands of my era, who can tell you that story. This is what's a little different. So, when I got to the Assembly, a friend of mine in the Assembly, but he had been there, I was new--later, a friend of mine in the Senate (Tony Strickland), now the Mayor of Huntington Beach, he came to meet me and we, he tells this story, which is true, and he said, “Well, Mark, what are your interests?” And I said, “Education.” And he kind of chuckled and said, “Well, what about education?” And I said, well, I say it was a five-point plan. He says, it was like a ten-point plan that I said, “I've got this plan.” And he started to laugh and he said, “You don't understand. Education is controlled by the Teacher's Union. And whatever they say goes.” And I did say “Yes, but they haven't seen the power of my ideas.” I used that phrase, “The power of my ideas.” Where upon Tony, Tony Strickland, he just started rolling on the floor laughing because he realized I had no idea how it worked. And what I learned was, local government is very different. Once you get in state government, it's just like, organized like Congress. There's parties, there's caucuses, legislative committees, floor--it's set up like that. And I always thought, you know, I'd been a Democrat. Everyone wants the same thing. Good jobs. Well, it--there are party differences. Not everything. Maybe half of the bills pass, everyone votes, which people don't understand enough of. It's not people like that all the time. You have to work together in the same building. But I did find it was much more partisan than I had expected. You know, “Our interest group says this, so that's how we're voting. Our interest group says this, so that's how we're voting.” So much so. It's a two-year session in the Assembly. So I ran in 2000, served in 2001, came back for my second year in 2002. And I'll never forget going into the basement of the building and then getting in the elevator to go up to my office. And my heart literally sank. It's a sensation I had never had. And I thought, “I hate this. I cannot keep doing this. I worked so hard to get this. I just hate this.” We aren't trying to solve problems. It's just the partisan--and some people in these bodies are very--there's a range of partisanship. Some are very partisan, some (unintelligible), but what happened that year is I happened to have a chief of staff who really understood politics and how politics works. And he also was, he'd probably deny it, but he was an amateur historian and they didn't have kids yet. And we would spend probably an hour, hour and a half, after work every night talking about history and Vietnam and all these things. And I learned about politics and got more engaged in politics, because I was ready to quit. So that's how that happened. And then in 2006, the Senator who had held that seat, Bill Morrow, he was retiring because of term limits. But before then, around 2005, there was a congressman here, Duke Cunningham, Randy “Duke” Cunningham, North County. And this is uncommon. I know a lot of people think it's common, it's uncommon: he was fraudulently selling his vote. He was on a relevant committee, appropriations for defense. And he had a contractor that basically, “If you give me this much money, I'll make sure you get this contract.” And I really want to emphasize as much as people think, “Oh, it's all about money, they're crooked.” No, they really aren't. And long and short of it is he was forced out. And a lot of people were saying, “Well, you need to run for that seat.” Which many people have told me, I would've pretty much walked into. But it was an identity crisis, a midlife crisis, because we'd sold our business. And I thought, “Well, if I don't win, what am I going to do?” And plus, my interest in education, that's really a state issue. They will talk about education at the federal level. The reality is the federal government has very little to do with education. It's primarily local and state. Long and short of that is I decided to stay with the state. And you know, sometimes gone back--think well, I should have done that. But I stayed with the state, and I walked into the seat because my potential opponents were running for the congressional seat. So, I walked in. 00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:28.000 Yeah. 00:49:28.000 --> 00:51:08.000 And the Senate is different from the Assembly, just like the United States Senate is different from Congress. But it took me a little adjustment because there's a new group of people. But there's only forty. So the United States Senate is a hundred, and you really get to know those people. So I continued, I worked on a lot of different things, but education was a key part. And then it's four years. So the reelect was 2010, and I almost quit then. I only told my family, I didn't tell anyone else because if you say you're leaving, it's--you're a lame duck. It's a mad rush. And I just thought, it's so hard to get--so hard to make this better. And I had, and we can talk about them, things I worked on. And it's, to me, they were so obvious. And it's not because of malice or anything, it's just change, even positive change, it's just hard to get people--especially if it's different than what they're accustomed to. But ultimately, I did run again and so I stayed there until 2014. 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:13.000 Right. And then you hit, you had hit your term limit at 2014, correct? 00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:14.000 Right. 00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:20.000 If you had the ability to continue on, would you have or would you have gone now regardless? 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:40.000 That's a really good question. I think I might've done one more term. I think, well, I'm idealistic and you read what the Senate leader said about me. 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.000 Yes. I wanted to get to that. 00:51:41.000 --> 00:52:56.000 I keep thinking there's got to be a way, (both laugh) you know, there's just got to be a way. So, I might've done one more term. I think something that's very common with people of my age. So, I'm seventy-six now, and we think of retirement depending somewhere in the sixties. It can be early or young sixties or later. But from my friends, I would say a significant percentage want to keep working. Maybe they'd (work) not as much or as intensely, but there's kind of a desire to contribute. And I'm still on a--I'm emeritus now--but I ended up along that period of time being involved with Pomona, the alumni group, and then the Pomona Board. And I'm emeritus now, and they allow me to attend meetings and talk. So, I would like to have done more. 00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:04.000 Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I could tell you had that ambition, even when you thought about quitting, you were like, “No, there's more to be done. I know I can make a difference.” 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:33.000 Yeah. And one of the things, I worked on a--I worked on a lot of things in education, but because of that time in Germany and Europe, I really--no system is perfect, but Americans don't know enough about how Europeans do things. And it's frustrating when people kind of knock Europe. They're our cousins (laughs). 00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.000 Yeah. 00:53:34.000 --> 00:54:57.000 We, you know, our society and culture and our government to some extent comes from that tradition. And I think it's important, not necessarily to copy, but well, how do they do this? Well, how do they do this? And in education it's not perfect, but they have one system that works really well, and that's apprenticeships. I worked on that. And there are misconceptions about that. And Americans, Americans will say things like, “Well, yeah, you know, plumbers make a lot of money.” And by the way, my grandfather was a plumber. That was his first business. So, I'm a--you know, I worked with those folks when I was in the lumber business and I did that work when I was--but apprenticeships are everything! Everything. Bankers are--start off as apprentices, realtors, insurance people, people managing resorts. Probably eighty, eighty-five percent of the jobs are various types of apprenticeships. And they give you training. And then if you have a facility and you're pretty good at, they give you more training. And the sky's the limit. And for a lot of reasons I thought we needed to develop more of that. 00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:21.000 Yeah, I completely agree. I know we discussed that in our pre-interview, how the United States is pretty much completely different than all the other countries out there. They have that focus of, “Hey, let's do an apprenticeship.” We have vocational schools. Of course we do have vocational schools here in the U.S. but we don't seem to put as much emphasis on them. Why do you think that is? 00:55:21.000 --> 00:58:12.000 Well, I'll tell you what the history is. First, Europe. Europe, starting in the Middle Ages developed guilds. Weavers, obviously technology moved beyond the people who wove, did weaving of cloth. And there was a great deal of respect. So, if someone was skilled at this ; a goldsmith, a baker, whatever it was, there was appreciation for that skill. And once the university got started, and they had medieval, you know, first in the early Dark Ages, it was in the monasteries. But then when universities got started, they were very old. But the modern university came out of Germany. They didn't have science and engineering. That was not common. It's all, it all started in Germany. Even in things like theology and archeology and all those things. And the same thing with all these various other jobs. And they were accustomed to, if you have a certificate, you really--there's a lot of respect. I think what happened in America, I mean it's a longer story, but the short of it is we had those, and we had in California, all the high schools were known as comprehensive high schools. So you didn't have a separate vocational school. So every high school--it was same at Escondido, same for all the high schools--you had a whole range. You had courses for people who were for sure going to go to college, those who weren't sure, and a lot of vocational courses. But there was not, it was sort of like, well, college somehow is like the ideal. But those vocational courses were great because there were a lot of great boys, and boys in particular, who didn't want to sit there and listen to a teacher talk all--they wanted to do things. And we had many agricultural classes, we had--before computer aided design, you could take four years of drafting. You had machine shop, you had auto shop. Well, it's not like they became auto mechanics. They learned practical engineering. 00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:13.000 Yeah. 00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:29.000 I mean, in auto shop they learned how machinery works. They learned a lot of physics. They learned the chemistry of combined--they learned all those things. And so, they could sit through the boring class because they had their cool project they were working on. 00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:32.000 Yeah. 00:58:32.000 --> 00:59:27.000 I think it was unintentional but misguided that they dismantled that because it was driven by misguided administrators who thought, “Well we need to just, it needs to be all college.” College doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. They will use the word, they don't have it. It's an American invention. And they don't understand it. And even in some cases, like in Spanish, there's “colegio,” which it translated to college. It's not, it's more like a high school. And in Germany, if you use the word “high school,” which in German is “Schule” (technische Schule), we think high school, “Schule” is like a technical university. It's called a technical high school. 00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:28.000 I see. 00:59:28.000 --> 01:00:27.000 And so, there's all this misunderstanding. But what we did was, the message became for those young people who weren't academically inclined--but are very capable and smart--the message was, “Well, unless you want to do this college thing, you know, you're not really, yeah, it's not so great, you know, if you have to do that.” That's so completely misguided. And so you get right here at San Marcos High School down the road--I drove by today because of this traffic mess--I had a buddy who was the soccer coach there, and he told me one day, he said a bunch of his kids came to him and said, “Coach, they're closing the machine shop.” And the kids said, “We only come to school to play soccer and for machine shop.” 01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:28.000 Yeah. 01:00:28.000 --> 01:01:17.000 There's a lot of great healthy--it applies to girls and women too, but in a different way--healthy boys who--they, just, they're not the academically inclined. But to give you an illustration with machinery--and I've been in the factory in Switzerland where they make high-end machinery--you can start out as a machinist and end up as a mechanical engineer. And they train you and they train you. And so, I think the combination of this misguided notion that everyone has to go to college, we end up where we are. 01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:18.000 Right. 01:01:18.000 --> 01:02:44.000 And then we end up with a problem of how do you finance it? The biggest debt we have in this country outside of home mortgages, it's not auto loans, it's not credit card. It's student loans! It's over a trillion dollars. Yesterday the brother of my niece's husband, I may have been telling you, he's moved out here. He's a chiropractor. He has an outrageous student loans. That doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. They have this, the system is stripped down. But if he were in one of those other--let's just take the European countries--he might have a small loan, but it'd be very small. And it's not just higher taxes, it's because the system is different. So I did lots of work and lots of bills. You know, you have to take a slice of it. So, one of them, for example, was that every school district had to have a council that advises them and builds connections between various industries and the kids. So, that's my pitch. And if you survey Americans, they agree. 01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:47.000 Right. 01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:55.000 But it's really hard to make those changes in the school. 01:02:55.000 --> 01:03:09.000 We're forcing a lot of these kids to just have to figure it out on their own. Because a lot of them, when they're going through the K-12 system, they're like, “Well, this isn't for me. I already know this.” But especially once you get to high school, it's all about college prep, college prep. 01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:10.000 Right. 01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:12.000 Taking these tests. 01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:13.000 Right. 01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:22.000 And I know for me, when I was going through high school, that was demoralizing because I was never a good test taker to begin with. I was never good at math. 01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:23.000 Right. 01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:24.000 Never good at science. 01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:25.000 Right. 01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:28.000 And they put so much emphasis on these tests. 01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:29.000 Right. 01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:31.000 And if you don't do well on them, you feel like a failure. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:32.000 Exactly. 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:34.000 And you’re not smart. And that’s not true. 01:03:34.000 --> 01:06:21.000 That's what I'm talking about. And you know, I don't want to leave the young women out. And women probably understand that better. And I'll give you an example though with young women, two of them. But I think with boys in particular, I'm going to start saying controversial stuff (Willis laughs). I think boys are wired to go out and do stuff. They're just like, solve a problem. you know, hunt, you know, (laughs) just, and I think I was lucky because I was--things came easily enough to me. A lot of school I didn't like. But it came easily enough that just like with German, it came easy, so it wasn't that hard. But, and so that's the problem. It's demoralizing. And they wonder why there's such a dropout rate. And they--why the use of drugs and all this stuff is a--particularly younger males. You need to be validated, like you're making a contribution. And in these other countries, they have that. Now, one of the things that a lot of Americans don't like, they think, well then you're at a young age, you don't know what you want to do. And you're plugged into something. It's not that simple. I'll give you an example. Young woman who's trained and you start fifteen, sixteen, where you're going to school three days a week and then three afternoons a week and two full days as an example, you're in the business. So, she was trained in an auto dealership. First off, you're paid. So, you're sixteen. It's not a lot of money, but you're paid for that. And you learn all these skills. A lot of older people might say, “Wow, they don't even know how to answer the phone.” You learn all those skills. You learn how to write a business letter. You learn if the manufacturer sends a letter about a defect or something, you learn how to understand it, how to respond. You learn the economics of it. Well, our salesman paid a commission. How does that work? Inventory. How do we do that? By the time she's nineteen, she's ready to go. She understands that business backwards and forwards. But she doesn't have to say, “Well, my career, the rest of my life is doing that.” She's got all kinds of skill sets that you can go all sorts of places. 01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:22.000 Exactly. 01:06:22.000 --> 01:08:01.000 Nursing, I worked hard on nursing. We have so many--mostly young women, a few young men--who would be great in every aspect of healthcare. And what do we do? All we do is make it hard. All we do is make it hard. And we made it worse. It used to be in an earlier era, nursing schools were affiliated with hospitals. And it was a combination of hands-on and classroom. So, if you applied to nursing school, and they had dormitories, you know, it's after a high school and a combined, classroom and clinical. So, you know, after six months, if you couldn't stand the sight of blood, you learned that and you didn't have to continue. And you're working all the time in a clinical setting. Plus learning the science. Well then we decided we have to upgrade it--has to more time in the classroom. Well, here's what happens. Whether it's at Palomar (College), and CSUSM’s (California State University, San Marcos) doing a pretty good job, I will guarantee you the freshman class comes in and there will be many times more kids who want to go into that. Well, we don't have the slots. And in those other countries, you can get that slot and you can be the most sophisticated OR nurse and you've done this and you can do it. And then you, if you want to, you move up. If you don't want to, you go into something else. 01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:02.000 Right. 01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:14.000 So, the part of the reason I'm so passionate about it is it's horrible to see these young people discouraged or demoralized. We need them (laughs). 01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:16.000 Right. That's our future. 01:08:16.000 --> 01:10:31.000 And, and I totally understand why young women will come from training in another country. I totally get it. They get here, it's their lives go up. But what about our young women? And some of them are coming from difficult backgrounds and all they need is some assistance. A little more time. And they'll be great. And instead, you talk about spending money? Two friends of mine had wives who were nurses. Each of them went to the four-year undergraduate (school). Liberal arts. It's got its place. I'm a beneficiary of it. It's got its place. But then after that, and all the money, money society spent, money they spent, loans. Then they have all this intense nursing training, and then we don't have enough opportunities. So, and one of my doctors--you get to my age, you're in doctor's offices all the time and--meet this young man. He wants to be a PA, physician's assistant. Well, guess what? There are only a few programs, one's at UC Davis (University of California, Davis). I know that, because buddy of mine was a professor there. Why don't we have that? Every state school should have that! Because the people who are going to be treating people more and more are going to be physician's assistants and nurse practitioners. And let's talk about doctors. We're--there's now a shortage around here. Because there's a lot more of us in my baby boomer era. What's the limit? The limit is why--you tell me why the University of California, you can get a PhD. I don't mean to pick on them (Willis laughs). I love the UC, but why do we really want an administration that's practically as big as the student body? And I read the other day, Stanford's administration has more people than they do students. 01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:32.000 Oh, wow. 01:10:32.000 --> 01:11:55.000 And all the data show these administrations keep growing. And how come we don't have expanded medical schools? In 20--I think it was 2010 or 2012, we had a new senator from Riverside. And I was talking to him and I said, “What are you interested in?” He said, “My number one goal is to expand the medical school at UC Riverside (University of California, Riverside).” And it was kind of the reverse of what my friend Tony had done years before I chuckled and said, “That's not going to happen.” “Well, we need it.” I said, “You're right. And I will help you. And I'm on the budget subcommittee for education. I'm on the education committee, I will help you. But you just need to understand, when you come across that huge bureaucracy and you say, “Does every campus have to be able to grant a PhD in medieval French literature at every campus? Or should we expand the medical school?” And maybe we give them an incentive. If they agree to work in underserved communities for a few years, why don't we make it free? It should be free. 01:11:55.000 --> 01:11:56.000 Yes. 01:11:56.000 --> 01:12:07.000 Why shouldn't they be graduating and saying, you know, “I love family practice, but I'm going to make a lot more money doing this.” It's crazy. 01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:09.000 Yeah. No, I'm right there with you. 01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:10.000 I'm sorry, Ryan. I get wound up. 01:12:10.000 --> 01:12:11.000 No (laughs). 01:12:11.000 --> 01:12:12.000 It brings it all back. 01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:58.000 No, it's a great conversation. I feel like we could talk about it for hours, but I did want to go back to your time in the Senate, near the end, in particular, when you had to retire. I want to talk about something a little bit more positive. Senator Darrell Steinberg, who I know you have a lot of respect for, he was quoted in saying, “Senator Wyland, I see you as the Republican romantic. You are somebody who constantly strives to make the world what it should be instead of what it is. You are a special member of the Senate, partly because you are unique.” How does that quote make you feel, first off? And in your opinion, what made you unique? 01:12:58.000 --> 01:14:00.000 Well, first of all, some Republicans say, “What do you mean, he is a Democrat!” Look, I have a lot of respect for Darrell. And in some ways you get to know people better even than their friends and family do. Because he really knew me. He'd seen me, you're working together all the time. We'd gone on a trip to Switzerland and Germany to look at these programs. And so I think it's one of the nicest compliments. There were some others in those tributes I really appreciated because I think he did understand. And I plead guilty. He's right. I can't--I'm pragmatic, but I can't, just can't say, “Well, that's the way it is. We can't fix it.” I keep thinking, “You know, we got to--we can make this better (laughs).” 01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:01.000 Yeah. 01:14:01.000 --> 01:16:09.000 So, it made me--it first of all blew me away because every year when people retire, it's every election year, there's tributes. There's only few retiring, and there's a session where people speak about the member. And I was totally unprepared. From all the comments, I just, I was completely unprepared. So, it was a wonderful compliment. The downside of it is, and it's same thing in that column that Dan Walters wrote, well, that's great, but how do you make progress? (Both laugh) You know, it's--progress is tough and it's not--when I talk about these things, I'm optimistic. I do see the glass as half full. It's kind of a--I have a pretty high standard, and I think we just have to keep working at these things. And something that's really important. People are so cynical about politicians: it's not that easy. And at some point I would like to talk a little bit about my project because the biggest challenge is people know less. And so when they know less, it's harder to hold government accountable. And it's not their fault. I have friends who say, “Well, they're just lazy. They could find it on the internet.” It's really hard. It needs to be easy to understand how well you're being governed. But I'll tell you that and some of those other comments, especially from the other side, the other side, the other party, were--I really appreciate it. 01:16:09.000 --> 01:16:26.000 Yeah, I imagine. So that kind of is a great segue onto the next thing I wanted to address, which is something you mentioned to me is that the general public does not understand politics the way that they should. Can you elaborate on that? 01:16:26.000 --> 01:23:42.000 Yeah, Ryan, there's a lot of research that would illustrate this better. But my--here's my direct experience. When I first ran in 2000 and for several years after that, most people got a print newspaper. It wasn't that expensive. And most people when they established a household or got in their twenties or mid-twenties, got a paper. And the papers did a good job at reporting on what government was doing. And most of the reporting was fairly, I would say, fairly objective. They had different editorial policies. You know, one may be more conservative, one more liberal, but even then, that was within a group. And I say this as a guy started reading The New York Times when I lived in New York, so I'm kind of a newspaper addict. And the North County Times would publish probably--they'd have two pages full of letters. So, people felt they could weigh in and people would read the letters and respond. And for a whole bunch of reasons, the economics change, the advent of the internet and social media, less advertising, newspapers are dying. The North County Times (is) no more. So, the entire big chunk of North County is--there's some coverage and they try in The Coast News. And there's some--a little bit in the Solana Beach, maybe a little bit North, Encinitas-Del Mar area. But if you're living in San Marcos or Escondido, it's a news desert. How do you know when it comes time to vote for a city council person or a school board person, or a Palomar College trustee? How do you know? And so, I think the way to change this and to change some of the anger that we have and the demonization where our side's good, the other side's evil--and you know, I'm a Republican, but I see this on both sides. And they'll take the most outrageous person on the other side. And all the outrageous things they say, well, look like if you take Congress, and we'd be the same thing if they cover the state. That's a lot of people. There's always going to be some people who (laughs) you know, who will say outrageous things, some of them purposely because of the coverage. So, I think the solution of my project, I call it civic knowledge, it could be civic information, it could be any name is--I want a way for someone, and it has to be partly on the internet to say, “How much are we spending in the state? I read there's a twenty-five-billion-dollar deficit. Where's the money going? Where'd it come from?” And it becomes so common as you as like googling. And there it is. Historically, easy. It's not that complicated with pie charts and color. Holy cow. I had no idea that half of the money we're spending on is education. And by the way, are we measuring--are these kids learning to read? What skills do they have? How come thirty years ago we spent a huge amount on transportation and now we're not spending any? No wonder we have all these poorly maintained roads. I think it just--here's a national one. The whole issue of Social Security and Medicare, everyone who knows this, which is—knows, which is every member of Congress, all the staff, all the experts, the average people know that it has to be fixed because the--we're not generating enough money. We're paying out more in social security to me and my generation than we're taking in. Well, there's extra there, but it's diminishing as more and more people get older. There aren't enough people of your age who are chipping in. And by the way, they may send you something, but the money you send in is not going to Ryan Willis in his account. They keep track of it, because you will get it. The idea you will get it. But it's going to Mark Wyland and his buddies who are retired. So the reason, the underlying reason I think it doesn't get fixed is it's too tempting. If you and I are running and I say--you say, “Hey, we got to fix this. Look at my generation. I deserve it. I've been chipping in, my employer's chipping in, we got to fix this, got to reform it.” But the people don't understand we need to. My temptation, it's human: man, if I say, “Ryan wants to take away Medicare and take away Social Security and make you after retire at seventy-five (years old), I can win.” And so that's where we are. So no one touches it. And so, what my project is, everyone won't do this, but if enough people learn it (Social Security) has to be fixed, then instead of letting me get away with that and demonizing you, it's like, “Hey, Wyland, at least Ryan knows there's a problem. And he's talking about solutions. What's yours? Just rather than attacking him because you're pretending like there isn't one.” You see what I'm saying? What I'm trying to do is something I've wanted to do for forty years, which is change the nature of politics where enough people, it doesn't have to be everyone, just enough people, ten, fifteen percent, twenty, wonderful. Who know enough that pretty soon, instead of just these attacks, it's “Okay, here's the problem. What's your solution?” 01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:44.000 Yeah. 01:23:44.000 --> 01:23:46.000 You see what I'm saying? 01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:51.000 Right. I know you said that your mission really is obtaining better quality government. 01:23:51.000 --> 01:23:52.000 Yeah. 01:23:52.000 --> 01:23:55.000 And how do you do that? People need to be more informed. 01:23:55.000 --> 01:24:57.000 And it's the people that can hold them accountable. Because--look, I was a Republican. I am a Republican, but, and it's generally, and I have most of my oldest friends are Democrats, we need to get rid of this stuff (mashes fingers towards each other, indicating conflict). It's like, how do we solve this problem? And I'm more interested in, at the end of the day, not just, I may think, “Well, this is the best solution,” but I'm more interested in the gift I would like to give is let's have a discussion where we actually understand what the issues are. And you know what, I may say Social Security is better if you make--if people have to work another couple of years and you may say, “No, we should do this, or tax--the company has to pay more.” I don't care about that part as much as, “Hey, we're talking about how we solve it.” 01:24:57.000 --> 01:24:58.000 The discussion. 01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:46.000 And that's how you get better government. Sadly, the newspapers used to help us. They don't. TV's a joke. Boy, I'm starting to say things I might regret (Willis laughs). Look, I get local TV news, I understand it's a business. It gets worse and worse and worse. If you even have the first segment as real news, you're lucky. And all of them used to have reporters who knew government. Same thing with--I'll say this about the UT (The San Diego Union Tribune) and I know some of those people--they don't have enough reporters who actually understand government and as it declines and declines, and then they say, “Well, we're about this. We're about focusing on this group.” 01:25:46.000 --> 01:25:47.000 Yeah. 01:25:47.000 --> 01:26:51.000 I heard one of their key people there, I just could hardly believe it, say, “Well, we want to write stories about, you know, instead of old white men, we're going to focus on what this group or that group or my group.” And I'm thinking, tell me who doesn't want a good job, a good education for their family, a reasonably safe environment, who doesn't want to sit in traffic?” I mean, everyone has the same thing. Everyone wants healthcare. Some people have a bigger problem than others. We need to work on it. It's like (laughs)--and they don't know that. And they will write these endless stories about--that avoid--and because solving the problems is where it gets hard. That's where the hard work is. And that's where you realize, “Gosh, it's not as simple as I thought.” 01:26:51.000 --> 01:26:58.000 But with your project you feel like it can explain it to people and give them a platform. 01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:49.000 I can give you succinctly--we don't think twice about googling, right? And a friend of mine had this experience just recently-- I've been talking to, because I'm trying to get the fund(ing)--I actually have a nonprofit I set up years ago: the Institute for Civic Education. And you could do it as a nonprofit or you could even do it, you could sell it to libraries and things like that for research. It's not that hard. If you--people who are informed, educated, if you say, “Well, you know, there's these fights about defense and Social Security. Well, where do they spend the money?” They don't know. 01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:50.000 Yeah. 01:27:50.000 --> 01:29:51.000 I was talking to a friend of mine, highly educated guy, retired now, when I lived in New York, he was a pretty big-time business guy. And we're--but he's lifelong Democrat. But we, you know, we didn't used to have those divisions, you would joke, you'd kid, “Ah, you know, he is a right-wing, crazy, ah—" you like, it didn't matter (laughs). And I'm trying to get, we need to come together as a country. And I remember he said, “You know, I've lived in New York for forty years. I couldn't tell you,” I--he gets The New York Times every day. Maybe The Wall Street Journal. He said, “I couldn't tell you where the money is spent.” It's that simple. And they've got major problems. Look at the billions we're spending on the bullet train. I know trains, I knew more about that than anyone in that entire building, the legislature. Because I'd lived in New York and I'd taken it every day and I'd lived in Europe. And there's only a few places where they make sense here. In some places. So, because we no longer have the newspapers, I think if we get this information out there, you can market it, not necessarily for money, but--and pretty soon it's in social media, and instead of someone saying, “well google it” Hey, check out Civic Knowledge, check out Civic Information on that. We're debating this or that. Check it out. Who--and it has to be objective, it cannot be partisan. And it has to include solutions across the political spectrum in their own words. We were talking just before we started about an interview on 60 Minutes, which is what this would not be, where it was clear the intent was to do what I call “gotcha journalism.” 01:29:51.000 --> 01:29:52.000 Yeah. 01:29:52.000 --> 01:30:34.000 “I'm going to come up with a question that's going to make you sweat and everyone's going to see, you know, how horrible you are.” No. They need to, in their own words, they need to be exposed to the solution. I guarantee you what people will see is, it's harder than they thought. And it's a kind of a way of maturity when you become an adult and you realize--and people tend to be more pragmatic and let's see if we can move the ball forward. 01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:53.000 Yeah. No, definitely. So, along those lines, looking at politics today, I know you've expressed to me that one of the core issues, I mean, I know there's a lot, but one of the core issues with voters, and it's been problematic for decades, is not knowing who they're even really voting for. 01:30:53.000 --> 01:30:54.000 Right. 01:30:54.000 --> 01:30:55.000 Who are these people? 01:30:55.000 --> 01:30:56.000 Right. 01:30:56.000 --> 01:31:02.000 And many voters either don't do their due diligence or they don't really know where to start. 01:31:02.000 --> 01:31:03.000 Right. 01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:09.000 When it comes to researching these people and they really just go off of endorsements. 01:31:09.000 --> 01:31:10.000 Right. 01:31:10.000 --> 01:31:13.000 And relying on their own emotions essentially. 01:31:13.000 --> 01:31:15.000 Right. Exactly. 01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:17.000 I would love to hear more of your thoughts on that. 01:31:17.000 --> 01:32:22.000 Well, you nailed it, Ryan. And it's a change in a short period of time. That's what's so staggering. I mean, when I started in the early 2000s, you could get (laughs), I'm kind of an addict, but I was getting six or seven papers a day. I was getting four or five California papers. And journalists, they, and it's--their problem is it's a business. And their business went away once advertising moved to the internet and people no longer--it was no longer part of a rite of passage as you got older and formed a household, well, you get the paper--and maybe initially, and it's still true today--the guy, the first thing he's going to look at is the sports. And I know people still subscribing to the print version of the UT which is going down, who are disgusted with other parts, but they're reading the sports-- 01:32:22.000 --> 01:32:23.000 Or the comics. 01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:25.000 Or the comics (laughs). I'm a fan of the comics. 01:32:25.000 --> 01:32:26.000 Same here. 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:27.000 I read the comics every day. 01:32:27.000 --> 01:32:28.000 Yep (laughs). 01:32:28.000 --> 01:32:29.000 Certain ones I really like. 01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:30.000 Right. 01:32:30.000 --> 01:35:10.000 And there's a lot of wisdom in the comics (laughs). And so it's an art form. So, I think that's made it harder. And I have a friend who was a pretty big-time newspaper publisher in other parts of the country. And we talk about this a lot. And I'm trying to say this is the only solution I know because when I started here, both the North County Times and the UT interviewed virtually every candidate, every candidate, if running for city council in El Cajon or Escondido or San Marcos, they interviewed you. And when I first sat down with the UT Editorial Board, it was seven or eight people and they apologized that they weren't all there. They had a separate editorial specialist on national security issues, which made sense. Here we are in the Navy town for crying out loud, the Navy and the Marines. And so, the only way I know to help change that and bring people more together is to have a simple way of seeing this. And if it's fully fleshed out, you can have a simple summary and then you can add more detail. So, if you want to know, well, how come we don't have more doctors? It's not hard. You figure out, well, they have to have residencies, who controls the number of residencies? Medicare. Medicare controls that. So, you ask your congressman, “Why don't you expand residencies for medical schools here?” Okay. You see, you can ask the governor this, and every legislator, you can't tell me. And if you saw the numbers and how big that bureaucracy is, you wouldn't believe it. You're telling me that you don't have enough room for doctors. Give me a break. Come on. The CSUs and the community colleges ; when Palomar has a three quarter a billion-dollar bond issue, and I said to them, “Aren't you going to expand your facilities for people who want to go into nursing?” “Well, you know.” Come on. I get why you're saying that, but this is something society needs. 01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:11.000 Yep. 01:35:11.000 --> 01:36:11.000 So, I said yesterday at Easter gathering, a family gathering, this came up and my sister's approach was, “Come on, people are lazy. They won't check it out.” Well, au contraire, (laughs) I think if people get accustomed to it, people check out their Google all the time. If they get used to it and it's objective, it can't be seen--so, if you portray someone's view on something: so-and-so introduced a bill to do this, if they call up and say, “Wait a minute, that you--you need to read it, that my intent is this.” I'm going to put exactly what they say. It has to be reliable. And I think it's one of the few ways out of this mess we’re in. 01:36:11.000 --> 01:36:30.000 Yeah. No, I agree. You mentioned it being objective. And I find that interesting because I know in one of the classes I have taken as a graduate student, one of the professors used to always ask, “Is it even possible to be objective?” What are your thoughts on that? 01:36:30.000 --> 01:48:04.000 You put your finger on a huge issue. And I want to think carefully before I go down this road. But I'm going to say it straight out anyway. I'm getting wound up. This ideology--and I'll say straight up, I can't stand ideology because I'm not talking about values or world views. Those are fine. But I define ideology as a rigid view. “It's only this way.” And new information bounces off. “It's this way.” And if I decide if there's some new issue, what my position is, what does my ideology say? I think it needs to be more pragmatic. And an ideology that has grown up in academia, which has had, I believe a really pernicious effect started in the 1970s in literature with postmodernism. And it used a couple of French philosophers, Jacque Derrida, and the other one escapes me. And ultimately developed--conservatives say it's Marxism and socialism. Not really. I think it took something that's real. Human beings have a history of--there are people who take advantage of others. And I think the promise of Western civilization--we need to go beyond the U.S.--is we confront things and try to fix them over time. Freedom of speech is part of it. Well, as that developed--this is my view--into all the iterations with all the terms. And it certainly happened in history. And it went from social history to, you know, critical theory and all the aspects of critical theory. And then to the deconstruction of text because--which applied to law. “Well, it doesn't really mean this because if you deconstruct it, it's yet one more example of those with power, especially white males, trying to oppress those without power.” And like with most insights, there's example--I mean, and most of this stuff that is anti-the West in anti-United States never looks at the sweep of history. I actually did a bill on this. It never looks comparatively, it never looks what happened within, oh, there's a name for it, Aboriginal groups. And with modern, whether it's anywhere in Europe, encountering less-advanced societies, it's always there. And the promise of western civilization is that we've worked hard to overcome a lot of those things and to build in tolerance. So, the problem I have with it is, it doesn't give you solutions. So I'll give one last example. Because I, you can see, I can go on. A professor I know has won many teaching awards and always liked to yank my chain. So, we're at a conference and he at a table, another professor and I am there and he comes up and says, “Well, you know, Mark, capitalism has hurt and damaged a lot more people than it's helped.” I knew what his goal is. He's read so many academic works, he's going to put me in my place because he knows this author and this author and that. But I don't rise to that bait. I said to him, his name is David. I said, “You know, David, all of us want people to do well. All of us.” There's no one who says, I want him to be poor, to struggle. But I said, “Here's the challenges.” And I just walked through the challenges, said, “What are you going to do if someone's got a good manufacturing job and China is subsidizing it so he can undercut the American company? He loses his job.” I just walked through all these challenges. Well, of course he has absolutely no idea. And he said, “Well, that's not my job. My job is to point out the problems, not the solutions.” Well, he was being so jerky about it, I said to him, I said, “Well, David, you know, that's okay for your students who become like you: an unaccountable academic. But for most people, what they do in their lives--work lives--is solve problems.” Well (laughs), he got all upset and stomped off. But my point was, that's how we can come together. That's how we can come together and respect each other more. So--and the same thing's true with ideology on the right. I mean, that happens to be, there's ideology and ideological things I've seen which are ridiculous. And I remember when I was early on up in the legislature, one of these ideologues on the right was saying, “Well, you know, we just have to be like on the budget has to be this.” And I said, “Look, I tried to sell my lumber and plywood materials to contractors who said, “Yeah, but I got a cheaper price over there.” I couldn't pound the table and say, “Well, this is a fair price.” He'll walk away. I have to figure out a way. And that's what I'm trying to achieve. I think--this is part of your history. And I think history is, if I hadn't studied IR (International Relations), I would've been a history major. It's got so much. But the only caution I would use, I think it's an important trait. Humility. Yes, you can define, you can say, “Well, one person's objectivity is another person's subjectivity.” I understand that. But it doesn't mean you don't strive for objectivity. And part of the problem of this worldview, and it's illustrated--and I'll get you this in a very important report from the Cronkite School at Arizona State--from prominent journalists ; former executive editor of the Washington Post, one of the key executives at CBS, and they quote many others, and they take it head on. They want to destroy objectivity. And they say objectivity is basically this white male point-of-view. I want to include all points of view. But you also have to have data and evidence. You can come up with the 1619 Project, which she says is a work of journalism. And you can cite evidence. And I'm not against that. But you also have to respect the evidence. Evidence is not always clear. And unlike a chemistry or a physics problem--and I thought a lot about this in the understanding politics--you can't say, “Well, the atomic weight of this molecule--" You can't do that. You have to--and so, so when I say “objective,” what I mean is I'm happy to have the standard that people of goodwill would say, this meets the standard, and that's where the solution part comes in. I don't care whether, I mean, it's not the crazy stuff, but I mean, you can go on the left with Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, less say, AOC (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez), because she doesn't know as much but her as well. And you can go with whoever it is on, on the right. And you fully, you want their point of view out there and you want as much evidence as you can get. And if there's a disagreement about it, someone says, “Well, I think the number is this.” You put it out there. Because my goal is not, “I want this policy.” My goal is: you achieve--that's how you achieve objectivity and transparency. I would love to have the debate with any academic who says that. Now, is perfect--you know, the University of California changed a decade ago. It's--they have their own guide for research and they eliminated objectivity. The origins of this is an intellectual movement that came out of academia all those decades ago. I would never contend there is perfect objectivity. And one person can say, “My view's objective, so is the other one.” But you try to gather as much evidence, as much transparency. And the idea is you, all of us in the public who just want good governance, who doesn't want to sit in traffic because Caltrans (California Department of Transportation) can't get their act together, who work 24/7 and get that fixed. And most of us also want them to do enough maintenance and repair. So, they're prepared for a lot of water (laughs). 01:48:04.000 --> 01:48:14.000 Yeah. I know you mentioned that most people don't even know where to direct the blame when it comes to politics. 01:48:14.000 --> 01:48:15.000 Yeah. 01:48:15.000 --> 01:48:25.000 This is going to go into--I know you wanted me to ask you about some of the bills that you wrote personally, specifically an SDG&E bill (San Diego Gas & Electric). 01:48:25.000 --> 01:55:59.000 (laughs) I went after them. You know, there are a lot of them, and I'll just name two that don't have anything to do with education. My first year, and it's relevant today: (California Governor) Gray Davis in 2000, there were some blackouts, I mean straight up blackouts if we weren't, this wasn't like we've had where reduced power, straight up blackouts. People were incensed. So he panicked. And when people are upset, they tend to take it out on whoever's in the office. So, the first year we spent an enormous amount of time, special sessions, trying to understand what happened. And it had to do just like now with the price of natural gas. And the reality, most people don't know, and it's shameful right now that UT and the others don't seem to understand it: these utilities, and there's three major ones, are private companies regulated by government, which is the Public Utilities Commission. What SDG&E was committed, in our case, to paying for natural gas that shot up outrageously, had to be approved! They can't do that on their own. It had to be approved by the Public Utilities Commission. So what the heck are they doing? Well, the governor appoints the Public Utilities Commission. That's where you need to look at. What did they let SDG&E get away with that their cost of natural gas was so high that our bills skyrocket? And I think, Ryan, you know this, there are people who were really it through threw budgets. It really destroyed a lot of people's budgets. And so, it wasn't as bad, but what I came up with is, well, rather than have all these entities, people don't understand, let's have--it's a MUD, a Municipal Utility District. There is one in Sacramento, it's been there for years. And a Municipal Utility District, it's a non-profit. And people elect the governing board. So like, if it were in San Diego County, say five people. And I'd like to see that today, where there's direct accountability. Ryan, you're on that board, my bill's going up, what the heck is going on? Well, you're elected and you're going to respond and you're probably going to respond ahead of time. Because you know it's coming. It's not like, “Well that's SDG&E,” which really doesn't care. Why do they care? Their business decided by the Public Utilities Commission. So, you know, UT said, “Go to the meeting, get angry.” What do they care? Go to the PUC (Public Utilities Commission). What do they care? Now, if they said “Governor (laughs)!” So, what happened was, I couldn't--the utilities really had outsized interest in the committees and the legislature. So, I got help from a former--a Democrat--a former State Senator from South County, Steve Peace. He helped me. I could never have gotten that done at every turn. I managed to get it past the main first committee in Assembly. Well, the procedure is, it has to be transmitted physically. The bill has to be taken to the chamber to go to the next step. Well, they just didn't transmit it. They weren't going to. But Steve called them up and said, “Hey Mark. I had to tell them, get that bill out of there because they were just going to hold it,” which meant it would've died. And then it had to do with an interpretation of the law, which I thought I understood because I must have read it a hundred times better. And SDG&E said, “Well, our lawyers say we won't oppose this.” Besides, they didn't want to be the bad guy. Long story short, I got it pretty much overwhelmingly passed for Gray Davis to sign. And son of gun, he vetoed it. And what his spokesperson said was--here's what happened. He got so panicked. He went out because of the blackouts. He went out and made long-term contracts for natural gas. All the experts, because we had them there talking to us, testifying, all the experts said, “Whatever you do, don't do that, because we know the cycle. It's high now it's going to come down.” He panicked. So, he said, “Well, we've made all these long-term contracts, it's like per million cubic feet or whatever at like ten dollars. And now it's only five dollars. If I sign this, if I sign Wyland’s bill, they're going to have a MUD and they're going to buy all the gas cheap. And I'm stuck with all this expensive gas.” (Willis laughs) And I'll just say, give an example of one other bill, which I never had heard because it would never have passed, but it was introduced. And what it would've done is said, well, instead of considering the budget every year we're going to have a two-year budget. And the first year of every session, all we do is the budget. We don't do these hundreds--there's hundreds--there are sessions where there's 2,000 bills introduced. It becomes a bill factory and too many aren't really that important. All we'll do is the budget. And then it had the state auditor looking at every expenditure and developing a way to explain the history, the funding, the intended effect, and to devise a system to measure: is it effective? And then a recommendation. Is it really effective? We need to do more. Is it ineffective? We could get rid of it. And the idea was over time that the legislators would get really familiar. Really familiar. Because here's another little secret that shouldn't be, the single most important thing all government does is its spending, where does it get the money? How much do we pay in gas tax? Try to figure that one out and how it's changed and where does it go? Is where you get the money and where you spend it. And when you see these articles about this bill or that bill. Yeah, there are occasionally some bills that they feature. But you know, I'll bet you, I mean, my gosh, one year in education, a couple years we did over two hundred pieces of law. And I used to say, “Well, I voted on 2,000 new laws for education.” Do you think education is 2,000 laws better (both laugh). 01:55:59.000 --> 01:56:01.000 Right (laughs). 01:56:01.000 --> 01:56:35.000 So those are two things I worked on. I knew that wouldn't--you couldn't pass it because it's too big and it's too much of a change and it's too hard for people to get their arms around. To me it was no big deal because I've been used to being in business where we need to make this radical change because three months from now, we're going to be losing money big time if we don't do it. But in government, that's harder. So-- 01:56:35.000 --> 01:56:40.000 Different way of thinking for sure. 01:56:40.000 --> 01:57:23.000 It's not, it's not malicious like people saying, “I'm going to make things harder or worse.” It's just people get set in their way and they get set in their beliefs. And I was just listening to some scientists talk about nutrition science and talk about how many recommendations are made without good evidence. And we think of, “Well, science is always simple, straightforward.” Well, there's debates there too. 01:57:23.000 --> 01:57:24.000 Yeah. 01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:30.000 And, but they have studies they can debate and this, that's what I was trying to achieve. 01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:43.000 I see. Since I am part of the oral history project here at CSUSM, it would be very remiss of me if I did not ask you about your efforts in promoting oral history. I understand you wrote three bills? 01:57:43.000 --> 01:57:44.000 Three. 01:57:44.000 --> 01:57:57.000 That emphasize and encourage the use of oral history in the classroom. Why did you and still do feel so passionately about oral history? 01:57:57.000 --> 02:10:49.000 I think we need a lot more of it. We need it in the classroom. Good oral history. Mine might be too boring. They might say after ten minutes, “Okay, teacher, come on, we’ve heard enough of this guy.” I think human beings are hardwired to like stories. It can be a TV, a movie, a song. And my grandfather was a great storyteller. And as a little kid, he would tell stories about growing up in Minnesota on the farm. He was a good storyteller. And he was just really good. He would even perform and all these things. And then when I spent that semester in Germany, I learned so much from the grandfather in that family of what he had experienced. And you can't read it. And then his--another relative who later married his daughter was a great storyteller. And when you hear the stories and what happened in Nazi Germany and you hear someone say, “I was in this professor--this Jewish professor's office, and we hear all this commotion in the street and we go over the window and we see the brown shirts marching in the street.” You can read about it, but it's just not as powerful. So I became a huge believer in it. And I also was concerned that we were losing a sense of patriotism, which does not mean our country's perfect. Everything is perfect. I wave--I've never worn a flag lapel or all these things. But it means I've studied a lot of history in many different countries and societies. And unless there's some residual belief in your society, belief that we may not do things right, but there's a reservoir of goodwill, something like that ; it bodes--it doesn't bode well. And I knew you can't go out and get into these curriculum wars, you know, my book or my view, or we're going to teach the 1619 Project. We were racist in the beginning. We're--it's in our genes we always will be. Or this view that says, you know, the colonists were gods on earth, et cetera. I thought, “What about the stories?” And I thought about my parents' generation, World War II. So, I wrote a bill for to incorporate junior year taking American history, the stories of World War II veterans, and people on the home front because the country was really united. I even had a series of things I wanted them to cover. And everyone liked it. I couldn't mandate it. I couldn't say every history course has to have it. I did want it to be available. My idea was, it's available. Teachers need help. I wanted it, I didn't get there where you're teaching American history in high school and here's an oral history unit, you can use it one day, one week. It's curated. Here's essay questions, test questions, (unintelligible) the whole thing. And here's an in-service where you can learn how to do it. To make it, you know, so teachers say, “Yeah, that'll get kids interested.” The one thing though that illustrated the change, and this has to do with objectivity, it's right there. The last sentence and that they're supposed to be asked was--because I didn't say, just tell the story. I wanted them to cover certain things--what did they think about our entry to the war? Did all these sorts of things. Their opinion of the end of the war in the Pacific and the use of atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Well, I knew that every single vet is going to say, “Darn right we did that. We would've lost thousands plus thousands of Japanese. We needed to end that war.” And here my own dad was getting ready to get shipped overseas. He was ready to go when they dropped the bomb and the war ended. And I also knew that so-called revisionist, Cold War history. And I don't know if you read any of that stuff, but I'd read it in graduate school. And the professor said, “Once you read this, you'll think it's utter nonsense, but it's out there and I think it's important you'd be familiar with it.” And then we went through it. And the lack of evidence and selected use of evidence you're talking about--that was subjective. And I knew that some of it at the extremes was saying, we initiated the Cold War because we dropped those bombs purposely to challenge the Soviets, to show them “You better watch out.” That's an oversimplification. And by the way, it was also racist act, just like our internment. Well, we interned, I mean, no one can deny we did all those things. But the humility of trying to understand history and other people is try to look at it from their perspective. You know? And, so it was intended to be an antidote because what I'd seen was, it's only this perspective. I tell friends of mine, I said, you ought to read because I have textbooks. I said, “you ought to read a current textbook when it covers World War II.” And because it's not that it didn't happen. We had riots in Mobile and up in Oakland at the shipyards. All those--no one denies any of that stuff, but there's more to it than that. And all the things that we knew, we knew every battle. We knew what a sacrifice, those poor marines. And we knew the debates: MacArthur convincing Roosevelt to waste all those men's lives and Filipino lives and Japanese lives invading the Philippines. The Navy clearly had the right--forget the Philippines, we can beat them with-- anyway, all those important things. And so, son of a gun, it (the bill) sails through. And I had a co-author in the Senate, great senator who could have gone on to be Mayor and Congress and all the rest of anything she wanted. And from San Diego. And we're ready to go. And it's on the Senate floor. And then it would've gone to the Governor and son of a gun in my office says, “You know, Mark, we got a call. There's a problem. You can't get it off the Senate floor.” Son of a gun. The Speaker, the then Speaker whom I liked, John Burton--he was old school, old school Democratic politician from Northern California whose brother was a member of Congress when they had that horrible thing in Central America with “Drink the Kool Aid.” Anyway, he had empowered, he didn't do it. He had a staffer who was younger and she read that thing. And the minute she read that line about dropping the bomb (waves arms as if referee), no goal. And she told my office, “You take that out and it's fine.” Now that is the reality because she was younger and she had an ideological view--in my view, in my opinion--an ideological subjective view that the use of those weapons was evidence. Total evidence. Not, “Well what's the other view? I've never actually talked to veterans, how they’d view this.” Total evidence. Because she had read--oh my gosh, one of the authors, Gabriel Coco, there were several, I used to know all of them--that that was reality. And I got it through. And then the next year I did one for Korea and Vietnam. And it was before, I think it was before Iraq, but it covered what had happened in the Middle East. Same thing. And then I did one that took me about four years, on genocide. I finally got it through my last year. And I thought it was important to understand the historical phenomenon of genocide. Not just the Holocaust. And what I said to Jewish members up there, “We, you know, we do a tribute to the Holocaust, memory of the Holocaust every year, but it's not just the Holocaust. This is human beings do this.” And I started as with oral history. So I started with the Armenian (genocide). And we have a lot of people of Armenian backgrounds in California now, as examples. Not the only ones. Armenian, the Holocaust. I used Cambodia, Rwanda, I think Somalia, maybe Bosnia as examples. And you know, it's the dark side of human history. And very importantly, I included that when students consider this, they need to consider how we can avoid these in the future because the solution part is so important. And that's the hard stuff. And I even had in there for example, “Should we be willing to deploy UN troops or American troops?” Neither of which we would do. And I just wanted them to understand, you can get wound up and a lot of people are wound up and emotional about all sorts of things, but do the hard work about solving it. And once you get in the trenches, it's harder. And so that was the idea. And because interestingly enough, the only reason it took me so long, was there is a very powerful Turkish interest group that says the Armenian genocide never happened. It's a fiction. And finally I was able to get that passed. And if you've ever heard any of those documentaries, which I'm addicted to, and you can hear like for the Holocaust, some of those films. So, you're embarked on something really important. I think the oral history is really important. And when you become a professor of this, a teacher of this, I hope you incorporate it. 02:10:49.000 --> 02:10:56.000 Definitely. I love the concept of oral history. And I wasn't even introduced to it until recently. 02:10:56.000 --> 02:10:57.000 Yeah. 02:10:57.000 --> 02:11:01.000 This is something that I would've loved in high school. 02:11:01.000 --> 02:11:02.000 Yeah. 02:11:02.000 --> 02:11:09.000 Instead of a teacher just--talk, talk talk--“This is what happened in this war. This war is what, okay, let's take a test on it.” 02:11:09.000 --> 02:11:10.000 You know-- 02:11:10.000 --> 02:11:11.000 Hearing these perspectives-- 02:11:11.000 --> 02:11:12.000 Yeah. 02:11:12.000 --> 02:11:13.000 Would've been mind-blowing. 02:11:13.000 --> 02:14:34.000 Well see my, both of my grandparents, all four of my grandparents were raised on farms. That's how you learn. We were agricultural. And you hear their stories. And all of them left because the work was never ending and really hard because they're family farms. And my grandfather was the youngest in a big farm family. And he was a good storyteller. So, I learned about the nineteenth century from those stories. His name was Bryan Swede, who was the city councilman supervisor. Well, he was named after William Jennings Bryan. And that's my middle name. Because his father was a devotee of William Jennings Bryan the Prairie populist. And he had gone to rallies as a little kid for William Jennings Bryan, where they had songs, you know, I had music, they had these political songs and how would I know this? But he explained his father--this was in Minnesota, was--some sort of official state official who, and you would know the period better, but ended up going to Colorado during that period in the early twentieth century where they had all the mine riot--the mine strikes and all that stuff. And he saw how the miners were treated, and the strike breakers. And it radicalized him to use a modern term. And he came back and he joined--he was a Wobbly, International Workers of the World (Industrial Workers of the World). Now this is a guy with not a lot of education, but you really got, you really understand what it was like when you saw--you know, you can read about strike breakers--but he went and saw the way they were being treated. So, you know, it's powerful. And if I hadn't learned all those stories in Germany, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I--you (laughs) when--and it's not only the family I lived with, but then the husband of the daughter who--and what it was like being a student with no money and eating--in Vienna when there were riots and the cops were all on horseback with sabers and all that stuff. It's like, wow. We're at the end of the war when he was an official, he was an economist he was on the train from Frankfurt to Berlin. The train is stopped--end the war. German soldiers are deserting. Stop. They go through, check everyone's ID, find Germans who they consider deserters and they spring them up right there. And you just--all these, that's--I don't--that should, that's too negative. (Willis laughs) But you really, yeah. 02:14:34.000 --> 02:14:36.000 It changes your perspective completely. 02:14:36.000 --> 02:14:37.000 Yeah. 02:14:37.000 --> 02:14:42.000 And this is going to be one of the last things for me, Mark, as we're wrapping it up here (Wyland laughs). 02:14:42.000 --> 02:14:44.000 I've done a whole-- 02:14:44.000 --> 02:14:45.000 No, this has been great. 02:14:45.000 --> 02:14:48.000 This is a dump (both laugh). 02:14:48.000 --> 02:15:01.000 I've enjoyed every minute of it, I assure you. But one thing that's really, obviously as an historian, really important to me is just knowing the truth. Like, I love learning history, but I want to know the truth. Don't give me this, you know, romantic-- 02:15:01.000 --> 02:15:02.000 Right. 02:15:02.000 --> 02:15:08.000 Romanticized version of it. And one thing I'm very passionate about is Native American history. 02:15:08.000 --> 02:15:09.000 Right. 02:15:09.000 --> 02:15:10.000 My wife is Native American. 02:15:10.000 --> 02:15:12.000 Right. 02:15:12.000 --> 02:15:21.000 We are taught as young children that, “Oh, you know, we, the Natives welcomed, you know, the white man with open arms.” 02:15:21.000 --> 02:15:22.000 Yeah. 02:15:22.000 --> 02:15:24.000 “We shared their land. We had Thanksgiving.” 02:15:24.000 --> 02:15:25.000 Right, right. 02:15:25.000 --> 02:15:28.000 We don't learn the truth about it until we're adults. 02:15:28.000 --> 02:15:29.000 Yeah. 02:15:29.000 --> 02:15:32.000 Which is incredible to me. 02:15:32.000 --> 02:21:04.000 Well, that's--you posed an interesting question. Because we know the truth. And I thought it had changed, but maybe it hadn't because when I was in high school, a long time ago, taking American history, maybe it wasn't in the textbook, but I remember the teachers saying, you know, we estimate there were this many--they didn't use Indigenous peoples--Native Americans. There are this many Native Americans. And then, you know, the--had collapsed, the Vale of Tears March (Trail of Tears). We learned that stuff. And, the history is the history, you know, the missions, we all know what happened. The missions subjugated the Mission Indians and all that stuff. So, certainly, we need to know that. I think, my gosh, now this was in college, I took a course in Latin American history. And when the Spaniards first started coming into the Americas, there was a theological debate. And the theological debate was, “Are they human? Because if they're human, we need to save them,” which meant convert them to Christianity. And the only thing I would say about that is we've come a long way. We certainly need to know it. But I think to make it complete, we need to see the changes that have been wrought. And it needs to be comparative. If you were Indio in Mexico or Latin America, you know, they'll talk with pride. And I learned in Colombia, you know, we think of it all the same. They’re all different, right? The Colombianos do not particularly like the Mexicanos. And part of it is all the Americans think, you know, they're Mexicanos and they're not the Colombianos. And they would talk about “el orgullo de ser Mexicano,” which means “they’re arrogant” and they brag about, you know, their great history of the Aztecs and the Mayans. They don't get treated very well. And I'm not doing that to cast aspersions on them. What I'm saying is, look at the Europeans in Africa and Asia and the rest of it. There's something about human beings that tends to do that. And the question is, okay, “What is the history since then? How are we solving the problems?” Now in California and other places, the advent of gaming has done a lot because all of a sudden there's a lot more money. But all the tribes--I know a ton about this, Ryan, because you can't be in the state legislature. And I was on the relevant committee. I've been--I haven't been invaluable, but I've been in almost every one of them. And they're all different. The, you know, the tribal leaders are all different, then they can change. And some are, you know--and when I went up to my sister’s, I go right by Valley View, go right by Rincon. And if I turn left, I'd--you know. But so. I think it's really important to learn the history. But not, not that there's just one lesson, but there's a lot of lessons because humans--the, however you want to think how it happens, either it's something in us, or if you're Jewish or Christian in Genesis, we're fallen, we sinned and we're driven out of Eden. We're--you're in trouble now, you know, East of Eden. And women will bear children in pain. And the next thing you know, Cain slew Abel, his brother. And it's sort of whether it's that's what happened, that's what I believe, or it's a parable, I think the challenge for all civilization is “How do we overcome these things in the right way?” Does that make sense? 02:21:04.000 --> 02:21:05.000 Yes. 02:21:05.000 --> 02:22:22.000 But you do have to learn the truth. When I was in elementary school, we learned about the sharing and all that sort of thing. But in high school, you know, we got, we got the real thing. And then what do you do? And that's why I did the thing (oral history bill) on genocide because I said, “Well, there's these groups, but you can add in lots more.” And how do you stop it? And how do you get people--see, I think that's Western, for all our sins. How do you get people--it's western civilization that is able to say, “We need to see people and accord them respect as they're like us. It's not that easy. And I also know a lot about immigration and immigration into Europe and all these other things. It gets complicated. So yeah (both laugh). Well, and you know-- 02:22:22.000 --> 02:22:23.000 It's a heavy topic. I know. 02:22:23.000 --> 02:22:24.000 Well, it's an important one. 02:22:24.000 --> 02:22:25.000 It is. 02:22:25.000 --> 02:23:02.000 And, and, and, but here's the key. And I did have a bill, which I think I did as a resolution or something. Actually, I was looking through them, so I need to find some of it. It's important to learn it in that context. How many--I had thought that, well, when Cortez landed, you know, they rode in to--they rode into to, I think it was called Mexico. I've forgotten what the Capital was with the Aztecs and the chief Aztec said, “Oh my gosh, these are gods on horses.” 02:23:02.000 --> 02:23:03.000 Montezuma. 02:23:03.000 --> 02:23:18.000 Montezuma. I don't know, you may know this. I didn't. It took them years. And what they did was they built relationships with neighboring tribes that had been subjugated by the Aztecs. 02:23:18.000 --> 02:23:19.000 Right. 02:23:19.000 --> 02:23:23.000 Who had enslaved them and taken their kids for sacrifices. 02:23:23.000 --> 02:23:26.000 So they were more than willing--“Hey I’ll help you out.” 02:23:26.000 --> 02:26:38.000 So they were more than willing. And so how do you--in a world, when I was studying international relations, they call it IR for short. And it was the Cold War. And after 1962 and the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was very stable. But we thought it was dangerous. And it was, but not like now. So, what do you do in a world where the next biggest, some people would say bigger economy (China), is utterly totalitarian, where everyone has a social media score where they can take--same human thing. The Uyghurs aren't like us. Only ethnic Han Chinese get treated well while the Tibetans and all the rest, they are subjugated. How, and that's such a powerful country and getting more powerful. How do we maintain societies where rule of law isn't perfect, but people cared about the laws we passed? You know what, again, this is not dumping on Mexico, but I'll tell you a story that illustrates the conundrum. This was a professor of mine while we were negotiating NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. And he had a conversation with--he was then Foreign Minister of Mexico. And I think he's a professor now, totally bicultural, American PhD. I'll think of his name. I can't think of it right now. Anyway, and they were still negotiating and the US was asking for more environmental guarantees. And he said to my friend, “You Americans don't get it. Because in America, law matters. Law doesn't matter in Mexico.” Give us all the guarantees you want. We'll sign them. It won't make any different. Now, that's not because Mexicans don't want--they don't want the cartels. They don't want--they want the same kind of democracy--which is imperfect--we have. But maybe you're the next generation and you're studying history. Maybe you can help us figure out how we can create more of this and at least maintain what we have. 02:26:38.000 --> 02:26:58.000 Yes, absolutely. I'm right there with you. Well, Mark, I can't thank you enough for your time and your candidness today. It has been extremely informative. It's been an honor to be able to speak with you. Before we close the interview, is there anything else you would like to add that we did not get to? 02:26:58.000 --> 02:28:46.000 Well, there may be, and I may have some stuff I can send you if you're interested. Because I started thinking through all of this and I appreciate it, Ryan, because not only are--number one, you're actually interested, which is great. Number two, you're going to teach, I hope, because I think you would be a good teacher. And it's been fun actually. And I didn't think I'd get so wound up (both laugh). But, you know, I'm trying to make it better. And gosh, the issue with Native Americans, I can't tell you that hours I have spent with all these issues in great depth. And they've had their, their challenges. And one of the interesting things about state government, once you take out national defense or a couple of things you're dealing with, actually there are many important issues that the federal government doesn't deal with. And in a state like California where it's a very activist legislature and government, you really deal with a huge number of things. So anyway. Well, I appreciate it and I appreciate you letting me talk about my plan to fix it all (laughs). I still see the world the way it could be. 02:28:46.000 --> 02:28:50.000 Right. No, and I admire that. We need more people like you honestly, that think in that way. 02:28:50.000 --> 02:28:51.000 Well-- 02:28:51.000 --> 02:28:58.000 So, I know, I really appreciate it. So thank you for everything that you have done and continue to try to do. Because I think it's very admirable. 02:28:58.000 --> 02:29:42.000 Well, I really appreciate that and I appreciate--you can't do it without help and support because people want that. People deserve--I'm not one of those who says, “Well, they voted the wrong way. They deserve it.” No, people deserve feeling good about their government, being able to say, “Well, I didn't agree with everything, but you know, they're trying to do the right thing.” And right now we don't have that. And I think this is one way to restore it. And I couldn't do it, even think about it if I didn't think people think, yeah, let's do that. 02:29:42.000 --> 02:29:43.000 Yeah. 02:29:43.000 --> 02:29:45.000 So anyway, well— 02:29:45.000 --> 02:29:46.000 Really Concur. 02:29:46.000 --> 02:29:48.000 I enjoyed this (laughs). 02:29:48.000 --> 02:30:02.000 I did as well. I think anybody that's going to check this interview out's going to really enjoy it. I learned a lot. And that's, I think, really the ultimate goal. So Mark, thank you again so much for joining me today at the California State University San Marcos Library. And I will now stop the recording. 02:30:02.000 --> 02:30:04.000 Okay. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyland, Mark. Interview, April 10, 2023 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree & Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-38 Subject The topic of the resource Bills, Legislative California. Legislature. Assembly California. Legislature. Senate International relations Legislation -- California Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido Oral history Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century School boards -- California -- Escondido Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mark Wyland Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (California) California Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Mark Wyland Community history History Department internship Politics and governance https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a9584fdc97e42f64b69b7f158055847a.pdf fc499ddb820fad05b30fef396a378b89 PDF Text Text Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Martin Leyva as part of the California State University San Marcos Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Today is Thursday, October 27th, 2022, and the interview is taking place at the University Library at Cal State San Marcos. Martin, thank you so much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about the work that you do, and I was wondering if you can speak to your roles at Cal State as well as Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges. Martin Leyva: Yeah. so currently I'm the program coordinator for Project Rebound here at Cal State San Marcos. Project Rebound started three years ago as a program that supports formerly incarcerated students. I'm also a lecturer within the Sociology [department] Criminology and Justice Studies [program]. And my work primarily is around formerly incarcerated students. It includes Palomar College's Transitions Program that started in 2016, 2017? 2017, and I worked there, also a professor of sociology there, as well as the support person for Transitions students. And same thing at MiraCosta, [unclear] teaches sociology, lecture and sociology there, as well as work with their Transitions students, so formerly incarcerated students. And the cool thing is now they're Rising Scholars, which is the Chancellor's, California Chancellor's Office support for formerly incarcerated folks within the community college. So that's what I do. Visintainer: What does that support look like from the -- you said the Chancellor's Office? Leyva: Yeah, so well, there's two parts. One, Project Rebound also gets support from the Chancellor's office to have programs in the CSU, provides financial support for formerly incarcerated folks. And that's the same thing at the community college with Rising Scholars Network is financial support and professional development for formerly incarcerated students all supported by the Chancellor's office. And that's all new initiatives that just happened in the last couple years. Rising Scholars just happened this past year, funding to community colleges, which is a big help, a huge help. Visintainer: How did Rising Scholars come to be? Leyva: Rising-- I mean Rising Scholars came to be because they saw the need. They saw like a lot of community colleges starting to build up and amplify their services to incarcerated and formally incarcerated students. I love the work. I started doing this work back in 2007 when I came home from prison. Started community college and you know, it's just, I don't know. It wasn't -- there wasn't a lot of support back in 2007 for formerly incarcerated folks and building that program and other programs that got built around existing programs and what we were doing at Santa Barbara City College, last 15 years is just more and more community colleges throughout the state started doing this work. Project rebound, expanded from San Francisco State on to thirteen other campuses. The UC [University of California] system started creating Underground Scholars that supported you know, Underground Scholars first started in Berkeley, and it had started expanding to the UCs. And I think the state of California just saw like, there was a movement and momentum around laws and policies and procedures that supported -- they Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 1 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 needed to support formerly incarcerated students, because a lot were coming home and a lot were going to college. And it's been nothing but positivity, you know, I mean, the more they realize, the more degrees we get, the less the likelihood of us going back to prison drops significantly. And they started to fund them. So, it's been so beautiful to watch. Visintainer: Yeah. For sure. What you mentioned the that there's financial support and professional development that's provided and what does that look like? Leyva: So, professional development… someone like myself who's been to prison, who's got a record it's really hard, especially in areas like this state, right? To get a job with felonies on your record or having an extensive background. But a lot of these programs, they're actually encouraging for institutions to hire people with lived experience. And so it opens, the professional development opens up the doors to people like myself to be able to come work for -- you know, it's interesting because at one point, how much distrust, and I dunno what the word is, distrust. And just like I was property of the state for a long time. <Affirmative> [Be]cause property of the county from county probation to the state of California being in prison and on parole, you’re property of the state, and then to suddenly go to work for the state, it's kind of an interesting trajectory. But the professional development is they're encouraging institutions to hire formerly incarcerated folks to lead the charge to work with formerly incarcerated students. And I think that, that, I could see myself in admin work now. I could see myself as, you know, someday becoming like a dean of a department or… and that was something I never thought as a formerly incarcerated individual that I'd ever see myself at that level. And I think that that through Project Rebound, I'm able to see myself as, “Wow, I can actually do this.” And that's the part of the professional development, because if I was to leave here, I'm building the skills it takes to continue this work in other academic institutions or nonprofits or, you know what I mean, other places. And I think that there's a lot of skills that's being built working for the university. So-Visintainer: So it's skill building its opening doors with state government also, I assume with private organizations. Leyva: Yeah. I mean, again, the nonprofit sector. A lot of organizations that are taking on issues around incarceration, around formerly incarcerated, around reentry you know, there are big nonprofits too. And you know, this is the professional development that if I was to leave the university, which I don't foresee me leaving the university anytime soon. You know, I got skills to be able to apply for these jobs that I would've never had. Right? And I'd be taking leadership or taking mentorship from some of our leadership here. I'm really understanding what it is to maybe someday lead an organization, right? And yeah, so the nonprofit sector even, I don't know, I don't ever foresee, like me going back to the prison system to work. But if, you know, job came up and it was, you know, proactive in helping people get out of prison, finding resources, I would take a job back into the, you know well not back into, but go back to the prison system to work to make sure that incarcerated folks had an easier time transitioning from prison to society, right? And so, I think those skills are being developed here. There's a lot of sectors that I can see myself working in. Yeah. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 2 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 So you're a lecturer. You have you have a hand in three different colleges, programs with helping formally incarcerated individuals with their college experiences. So you're very busy. Leyva: Yeah. <laughs> Visintainer: What does, what does like a typical day of work look like for you? Leyva: A typical day of work… it depends on the semester, but it is, it's a typical day is, you know, get up, get ready for work, you take care of your household things, show up to university, check in, do your emails, support students, check in on students. Prepare for meetings, prepare agendas for meetings attend a lot of meetings. <Laugh> There's a lot of meetings in the university. And it's in, it's also preparing for class. And I don't prepare for class. You know, that's usually after hours or before work. And then, you know, different schedules, different colleges, different days. You know Monday, Wednesday for instance, I'm at MiraCosta teaching formerly incarcerated folks, sociology intro class. So, you know, the typical lecture here's the information, the grading, the mentoring of students. Tuesday, Thursday, I'm doing the same thing for Palomar College. And then quite honestly, I mean I stay busy, so I go home and I'm prepared a little food, hang out with the dog, and then all of a sudden you're—[be]cause I'm also in a doctoral program right now. So gotta do research, gotta write. It's a very <laugh> now that I say that out loud, it's super busy. But you know, I think that I also see the importance all of it, right? I see the opportunity that has been placed in front of me. And I know that there's a good benefit to it all right? I think it's also… I stay busy as a formerly incarcerated individual. I know a lot of formerly incarcerated individuals are watching me and they see me and they could see them-- They could see their lives changing too. And I think that that's the super important part is that the mentoring that I've gotten, I got to give it away, right? And so that's a typical day is just, you know, Monday through Friday and on weekends, hopefully get a little downtime and hang out a little bit, if not, you know, I'm sitting there researching, writing, and grading and— Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Wouldn't trade my life for anything. Cause I think I've seen the worst of worst and I don't wanna see that anymore. And I think I can do something about that if I continue to do what I do. So… Visintainer: So you mentioned that you-- part of your day is supporting students and checking in with students. And I imagine, and I'm making a bit of an assumption here, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that there's a significant amount of emotional labor that goes into your work. What, I guess my question is what is the emotional labor that goes into assisting students with their transition to college life? Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 3 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: Yeah, there's a lot of emotional labor attached to it. [Be]cause it's not just formally incarcerated students here, when I teach here at the university, I'm teaching sociology to undergraduate students from all walks of life. And but when it comes to students in general, I think a lot of students still, especially at the community college, working with them, they struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. A lot of less, you know, they don't have the best self-esteem or self-value. A lot of 'em can't believe that they can actually make it. And you know, you want to support them as much as you can, you know, encourage them. Words of encouragement, sharing, you know, even the tutoring part, which is second nature to me: this is how you write a paper. This is what you should think about with research. Like, that's, that's like second nature to me now. But I also remember what it was like to be a student coming outta prison and going through education, which I'm still doing now. I've built so many skills and other skills I give away. But there's a lot of times where I think the emotional, real emotional labor comes is when students don't succeed. Right. We still have a lot of students that deal with the barriers, you know the getting a job, the family unification, addiction, alcoholism, even students that still deal with, you know, family trauma, neighborhood trauma, like gangs and stuff, right? And you, a lot of times I tell students, you, especially coming from that background, I tell students, you gotta be careful having one foot in your trauma and one foot in education, cause one of them's gonna win. And we try our best to have education heal that trauma, but a lot of times we see students go back to the old ways and that, you know, it's a little emotional taxing. I just shared in a discussion I had today that you can't change the person who's not ready to change, but what you can do is just plant the seeds that help them change, you know, and keep an open door. But there is, I find myself, this is actually a really good question cause I find myself at night when I lay down, my brain will tell me what to do next because I'll think about that student that still struggles and that's emotional. Like I carry that with me. And I think it's also a motivator to be like, “Okay, here's what I can do different. Here's who I can reach out to.” This work is not just me. It is a huge community around. And there's a lot of emotional labor with that, you know, And again, just students that you know, I had mentors believe in me before I believed in myself. And there's still areas where I don't believe in myself where I still have people believing in me. And that's the thing, like I always tell students, Don't worry, you might not believe in yourself now, but I believe in you. You can do this. You might be looking through distorted eyes, but I could see the clear picture, you know, and it's a matter of them just trusting you. We also deal with the population that doesn't trust very well. You know what I mean? And so that can be emotionally taxing. It can be. And but again, we show up, we role model. And eventually the more you show up, the more they show up because they, you know, you're role modeling what you want them to do. And that's, that's super important. So. Visintainer: Is, is that the key to building trust or are there other things that you do to build that relationship? I assume there's like a feeling out stage that happens and then there's a trust that's built. I guess my question is how do you go about building trust with somebody? Leyva: I think that the students that gravitate towards me also recognize that there's a big similarity. Whether it's like, cause I, I'm very open with students, [I’m] a student in recovery, been clean and sober nineteen years. I'm a student whose, or an individual who has addressed a lot of healing within myself. And I think that when students know where I've come from and know where I'm at, they still see me for where I come from. So I'm an insider for a lot of them, right? And so there's already trust there. But again, it's also to like and I'll say it straight up, “You might not trust me now, but eventually you will.” And it gets to Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 4 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 that point where they're like, you know, you're reliable. You know, they're gonna call, they're gonna email. They don't really email. They'll call or text. And I answer and whatever they need, I say, Here, look, call this person. Go here, go that or come see me. I'll go, I'll meet you. Come to the office, or whatever. And students we rely on each other and they also know we're like-minded. You know I'll never tell a student to do something that I haven't done or not doing. I'll never ask a student to step outta their comfort zone without support. Right. And so they know that they're always gonna be supported and and cared for. They're always gonna be seen. And so, yeah, I think it, it takes a little bit to build trust, but it happens. It happens. And this is also, goes back to that question about professional development, is it's important to bring people into these institutions who actually have the lived experience of the people coming in. Visintainer: Hm-hmm. Leyva: Because we're here trying our best to succeed. And we're showing these folks that are just like us, just at a different level, that they too can be here. And they know that. It's like, there's like this insider trust, this insider knowledge, this insider acceptance that, you know I see them, they see me, and we have each other. We're gonna hold each other accountable. I will hold, I will hold students accountable. Right? And this isn't just formally incarcerated students, which is most of my workers around this has to do with students who are in the classroom here at Cal State San Marcos, who are also like Chicano or Chicana. They come from this marginal background. Maybe they're first generation, actually most of them are first generation. And then they see a professor. Cause I don't look like a typical professor, but they recognize my aesthetics, their language, my dress style. They recognize that as very similar to them. And so then you become those mentors for those students. Right. You know, when they come see you at the office, it's like, “Oh yeah, check out this resource, check out that resource.” And nobody's really sharing with them that knowledge and introducing them to folks on campus that can help support their success. Right. Or their, their trajectory towards success. And the trust gets built and once it's built, it's there, right. And it's also always being there. And I, and I laugh because it's like, I've had students share with me, like, “Every time I call you answer.” I'm like, “Trust me, that's my job. Because I believe in you.” Right. And I want to be there for you. And cause a lot of times we deal with students who understand what disappointment and abandonment looks like. And if they come here and they get the same treatment, they're not really gonna be successful. Or, you know, the retention rates for them are gonna drop and we're not gonna hold onto them. And so I think it's important to have someone like me, someone like Dr. Xuan Santos, some of the other professors on this campus who mirror, you know, Rafael Hernandez. A lot of professors on this campus who come from the backgrounds of our students and students can see themselves in our places. And that's what we want. So it all starts with trust. We have to, they have to build trust first. And we just go from there, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Can you talk about a great success that you had at work with either a student or a policy change? I'm just interested, like, what does a really great day at work look like and feel like? Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 5 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 What's a really great day at work look like? Actually quite a few and, you know, I'll share one. So I had a student, it was my first year actually teaching here. It was I felt like I'd been teaching a really long time, but after I got my master's degree here, and I started, like the following semester, I had a class and a student in this class who was very quiet, very reserved. And he was just kind of like, came out, came up with me after class. He's like, “I've never seen a professor like you.” And then he started to share about him, his upbringing and his family. And right away I gravitated towards like, what this student was sharing and how he can be successful. And it was a little mentor/mentee relationship built. And a great day here is when you get the email says, I decided to go to grad school. I want to apply for this program. Can you help me? And I'm like, yes! And we're, I'm writing a letter for him for grad school. And then he gets, he sends me another letter. I got into grad school. And just that last semester, spring, spring quarter last year, he graduated with a master's degree in social work. Visintainer: Awesome. Leyva: Got a student in my office right now who formally incarcerated. He spent twenty-nine years in prison, came out an older gentleman. I met him when he first came out and he started Palomar to be able to help him. He got two associates degrees, came here, got his bachelor's degree, and he just started his first year of graduate school, right. And it's, I have, there's, so I'm truly-- I feel blessed because I have like, so many little stories. And I say little because they're gonna continue to grow, because these individuals are also gonna guide the next generation of students coming in. That helps. I mean that's success to me. And then just being part of, like, when I first started Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College, to watch that program kind of grow into this big thing that policy changes, where finally, politicians are saying we need to fund programs and start programs and to see programs. Community college goes into schools-- community college goes into jails and prisons to teach associates degrees, and to me, success is like knowing that I played a small part in that. Right. And to be able to be an advocate and a voice for people ending life without the possibly of parole for minors who went to prison and playing a small part in that. Now you ask that question, I'm like, ‘cause I never really think about it. I just do the work. Yeah. I just kinda show up and, and everything about, you know, like, what's, what's success to you? I'm like, you know, just show up to work. But to realize now when you say that, [unclear] had even just a small part of all these beautiful things. And as my mentor, Dr. Chris Bickel, he says, he's like, “Man, the work just began for you.” Right. Yeah, I never really even think about it. Just kinda show up to do work. <laughs> And, yeah, I think that's every day too. You get students show up in the office and they get to share, like, “I got an A on this test, thank you!” And I'm like, “Don’t thank me. I didn't do no-- I didn't do the study and I didn't do, I just gave you a couple encouraging words and you showed up, you took the test. It's not me, it's you, right?” And I think that you know, I get at least one piece of good news every day and that's a good thing. So, yeah. Never even thought about that, man. Thanks. Visintainer: <Laughs> Well, you're welcome. Thank you for sharing. Let's see. So, you started the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. Can you talk a little bit about how the Transitions Program there came to be? Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 6 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Yeah, so I got released from prison in 2007. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew was I didn't wanna back to prison. Education was not really on my mind. Change was though, right? Just not going back to jail. Not going back to prison. Not using drugs, not using alcohol, not going back to the neighborhood. I knew that that was what I didn't want. But I lost… because of my record, I lost three jobs in three months. And my niece just had this idea, “Why don't you go to school?” And I went to the, I went to Santa Barbara City College. I was scared. It was the first time I'd really ever felt like I was… you know I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. I didn't feel like I belonged there. I didn't fit in [unclear] scared. My niece was the one who really practically held my hand in my first semester. And I always tell folks: that transition started out of an act of fear because I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. And every time I went to the parole office, I was telling another formerly incarcerated individual. Back then, we were still using the word convict, right. And I'd be like, “Hey, you should come up and check out school.” Selfishly, I wanted him there. Right. And I also saw two individuals I'd always see at the parole office. I saw 'em on campus. And I did really quickly, I recognized I didn't have the ability to ask for help. I didn't have the ability to raise my hand. I read and I was engaged in here, but I wasn't vocal about what I was learning. And these two individuals were Black. They're Black men. And in prison we walk around really fine racial lines. Right. These unwritten rules around race. And so, I at the time I was kind of scared to approach them because of race, but I was still institutionalized. And then really quickly, I said, I want to be here and I know they want to be here. And so I approached them, Tyrone and Malik and I introduced myself to them. We just got to talking about school, classes. Then they also felt the exact same things I was feeling. And next thing you know, we started a little support group. Me, Malik, Tyrone, and then there was a woman that joined and another person that joined another person-- and then we just started this transitions support group that turned into the school EOPS Director at the time, Marsha Wright, I said, “Hey, we need a little spot to meet.” And she's like, “Yeah, I'm gonna get you a room so you can continue the support group.” And that happened so quickly. The summer right after that, we had our very first cohort model of education for formerly incarcerated individuals. And I think the first cohort we had like fourteen formerly incarcerated students. Second, we had like twenty-two, then we had twenty-five, and we had twenty-five every year after that up until Covid, because Covid shut down a lot of the programs. But, you know, the Transitions Program was born and you know, addressing access to college, recruiting resources, you know learning disabilities, like a lot of the departments got involved because they saw a big need. And there this was the small community of Santa Barbara. We have students coming from Ventura, from San Louis Obispo to do the program. And so I think that that sparked the conversation. You know, campuses should address that. It's been such a pleasure and honor to be a part of that. Cause when I moved out here in 2016 to come to school, Cal State San Marcos, that first year we took it to MiraCosta and MiraCosta ran with it for one year. Second year I was here. Palomar. We had approached Palomar. Palomar started their Transition Program, which still both, now both campuses have one. And they're doing such amazing work. Right. And yeah, like I said, you know, it sparked a good movement. It's an honor to be fifteen years removed. I would say I'm fifteen years removed from prison, but I'm fifteen years born in education. Right. And that feels good to be part of that work. Visintainer: Yeah. I have so many follow up questions from what you just said. I'm gonna try and frame 'em in kind of a logical order. Okay. So you, you mentioned that you tried three jobs after getting out of prison. And did you say you were let go from 'em? Yeah. what were the jobs? Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 7 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 My first job was doing construction. My neighbor, I paroled back to my sister's house and the neighbor was, you know, essentially a good guy. His name's Joe. He was doing construction at the time. He said, I can get you a job at this construction company. And I was excited to work. Two things happened with that job. One, it was a big commercial industrial construction company they built, wasn't like building houses. We were building huge buildings. They ran a background check and it took about, you know, twenty days to then to come back. And they came back and this says, it's a lot of liability here. You just got out of prison and so we can't get you the job. The other thing was my parole officer. I was in Santa Barbara County and literally the job site was about three miles outside Ventura County. So, because I left Santa Barbara County into Ventura County, he's like, “You can't have that job.” I'm like, “It's a job though, right?” And so not only did the construction company not continue employing me because there was a lot of liability, parole officer said, “You can't leave the county.” Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: So I lost that job. So then my sister introduced me to temporary work. Right. A temp agency. And I got a job with, great job with, Powell-Peralta working, making skateboards. I thought that was a great job— Visintainer: Cool! Leyva: Loved the skate culture. Right. And it was really cool designs and was learning how to make boards and the temp agency, I was working there. I, you know and after thirty days of working there they said, “Oh, we want to hire you're a good worker. You show up, you do your job. And you're—" They really liked me. And, to go from temp agency to permanent employment, they ran a background check and they also said, “You know, you're just too fresh out. You just gotten out a couple months,” or not even a month maybe a month and a week, month and two weeks or two months, whatever. So then they didn't hire me on. And then I went to go work for janitorial, same temp agency. I was doing janitorial, cleaning buildings at night, nobody in sight, just me and you know, cleaning supplies. And after the same thing, after thirty days, they said, “We really like your work. You're good. Let's hire you on.” And then background check. And so it was, it deflated me pretty quick. Like, it was just exhausting. I just, I just wanted to do well. I wanted to do good and I wanted to make some money for my kids and get back on track, whatever that meant. And that's why when my niece introduced me to school, should I go to school and then I think when I attended, started Santa Barbara City College, my parole officer said, “Well, I'm glad you're in school, but that's not a job.” Right. FAFSA’s not money. And I was like, It's kind of money <laughs>, right? But he's like, “No, you need a job.” And then fairly quickly, I remember talking to my EOP counselor, EOPS counselor and I said, “I need a job.” And she's just like, “Oh, this this thing called federal work study. You should try to get a job on campus.” And I was like, “What's that?” So I explored it. Next thing you know, I'm working for English as a Second Language Department and I was doing administrative assistant work. And I'm like, “How am I do--? I don't even know what I'm doing!” But they gave me an opportunity. City College said, you know, you don't have certain crimes, so we're just gonna hire you. And I was like <surprised gesture> “Hmm.” You know, next thing I know I'm working Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 8 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 in, and I've been working in education since. An interesting thing is, same thing that happened to me back in 2007, trying to get a job is the same thing happening to people now. And this is why, again, this work is so important. We address those issues. We hire students on campuses. So. Visintainer: And you said the construction company said that the insurance liability was too much. And so when formerly incarcerated individuals are coming back and they're getting jobs and they're going through these background checks, I assume that's just a huge barrier. And things like insurance liability come up. How do you address that with students that you're mentoring and how do folks get over that barrier? Leyva: Yeah. Well now, I mean, this is the other thing about doing this work for so long: policy change has happened. Now we have the Fair Chance Act where you give me a job application and it says, “Have you been convicted of a felony?” You don't actually-- you don't have to mark anything down anymore. This allows for your application, at least to maybe go through the second process of an interview. They cannot run a background check on you until they hire you. So I always tell students, “You know what?” ‘Cause some students just don't know, some formerly incarcerated folks just don't know. They see that box and they just don't even-- why is that box still on the application? I don't know. It should be removed from all applications, especially in the state of California. But I tell them, “If you see that box, don't even mark it. Put in all your skills, send me your resume, let's hook up your resume.” Even if somebody doesn't have any real work experience for, you know maybe there's a five-year gap because they've been in prison, there's still skills being built, whether you worked in laundry, worked in the kitchen, did landscaping, did some type of machine shop, there's skills that are being built and we can put that in your resume. And so working with students, and the hard part is working with formerly incarcerated folks, we don't come in contact with all formerly incarcerated folks. So there's still a large portion, a large population of formerly incarcerated individuals who don't get this mentorship. But the ones that do, you know, let's work on your communication. Let's work on interview skills, let's work on all this stuff so that when they're ready to go for that job, they have a little bit of a leg up. Right. And you know, the Fair Chance Act has really given a lot of formerly incarcerated folks the opportunity to get work. Now, is it a livable wage? Probably not, but it's something, right? It's a starting point. But it's still an uphill battle. Cause we have a student currently in Project Rebound right now who is just having a hard time trying to find a job with a decent wage and attend school full time. And thinking about, you know, doing something different like truck driving school until you can save some money. There's still a lot of barriers. And as much mentorship and guidance we can give, there's still certain jobs that say, “Yeah, we wanna hire 'em.” And then as soon as they find that there is a criminal background, you know, just like pull the blanket out or pull the carpet out from underneath you and you feel like you're stage one again. Right. And so it's hard. That's the other-- that's the emotional labor that we were talking about earlier. It's like, you know, I feel like I've reached a place in my career where I feel okay, but it's hard to be here knowing that there's so many other folks that still don't feel that yet. And it's both emotionally taxing, but also I feel grateful too because it's like, I understand that I've been in those shoes before and it's like, just keep showing up for them and they'll be okay. And telling them, show for yourself. You know, show for yourself. So, Yeah. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 9 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Yeah. I have a question, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly. I'm gonna let it gestate as we continue talking. Cause I'm not entirely sure what I want to ask, if that makes sense. There's something there if that makes sense. Leyva: Yeah. It makes total sense to me. <laughs> Visintainer: Okay. So let's see. So let's circle back then to the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. And we've talked a little bit about how that came to be. That was-- it was really interesting. And I guess something that you mentioned there was a cohort that started and it was a smaller cohort, and then it grew as the years go on. And I was curious about how that communication starts. When before you have a program and you know that there are formerly incarcerated students on your campus, how do you get the word out about a program to help them? Leyva: It was really grassroots. So I'll start from the very-- like me and Tyrone, Malik, Christina, the number of folks in the very beginning, we would sit at this little bench on campus, right? And we would meet each other there in the morning. We'd talk about school, talk about tutoring, talk about resources. We’d support each other. But when you see a group of formerly incarcerated people or people that <airquote gesture> look formally incarcerated, the cops are also looking, right? You can see campus security, like, you know, what’s this group of people doing here? Right? And I've been asked too, when the early days by campus security or can I help you? Are you a student here? I'm like, Yeah, I'm a student here. And they're like, “Can I see your ID?” And I'm like, at the time I'm like, I'm on parole. I'm like, “Yes, you can see my ID.” Technically they had no right to do that right. I didn't know that. So I knew that there was like this surveillance aspect that was happening to us. And so that's why I approached the school, not to start a program, but to, “Hey, can you give us a safe place to meet?” Here's this group of people. We're all formerly incarcerated, We're all here. And it was like, yeah. So that's, that's that entry to the, to the dialogue as we're here and we need a safe place. And I said, you know, the campus security is always like looking at us or questioning one of us when we're coming into the college. And so the people that I was talking to were like, “Oh, that's not right. They shouldn't do that.” Right. And they help us help ourselves by saying, If they ask you that, you don't have to answer any questions. You can actually call me or whatever. Right. They were really supportive. But then you realize when you start asking more and more formally incarcerated people to come to school, that something needs to happen. And the good thing is, is that the school, especially EOPS at that time at Santa Barbara City College, still to this day, their goal is to help marginal students their whole, And they saw the need really quickly, and they said, “You think you can get a program started?” And I was like, I actually know I can get a program started, but what is a program? Right? And they asked me like, “What do you think a program would look like?” I said, “We get a whole classroom for formerly incarcerated folks.” I don't even know what you would teach, but we could all learn together and we can support each other and we can build I don't even know if I knew what the definition of cohort was before that. And then I was told, “You think you can get a cohort going?” And I just said, I didn't know what it was. I was like, “Sure. What is it?” You know what I mean? But, just-- they were really supportive. And then next thing you know, they're talking funding, they're talking, you know, “Oh, we'd like to hire you as a peer advisor to run this program and do this stuff.” And I was, I was just like, “Yes.” Because it was a job. It was being around the Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 10 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 people that made me comfortable, which were four other formerly incarcerated folks. I felt good about what I was doing and I was also doing drug and alcohol treatment or going to school for drug and alcohol treatment at the time so everything we were talking about in class was fitting into this model that was being built. Right. And so I had my teachers, my professors in those classes actually telling me about group process and all this other stuff. It just felt like everything was organic at that moment. And that's how the conversation started. And that's you know, I think me and Malik and Tyrone, we just ran with it, you know, and it was yeah. And that's how the conversation happened. And that's also goes back to professional development because I feel like when they start talking about funding and, you know, writing up a budget and all this stuff, I was like, I have no idea what this means. And here I am just like watching these EOPS counselors and these program coordinators talk about this stuff, and I'm watching them do the work, and I'm like, “Oh, I want to learn this.” It's not something-- not a skill I've ever had or been around. Again, I didn't know it would take me to this place, but I knew that there was some skills being built there. Right. And I think I answered your question. <laughs> Visintainer: Yeah. What is what is EOPS? Leyva: I always get this wrong. Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services. So it's like EOP here, and here it has a different definition, but it's pretty much like EOPS is the program that yeah-- So there's like single mothers, there's you know, marginal students that need extra support. Visintainer: Mmm-hmm Leyva: They're gonna provide the, the support, the resources, the mentorship, the guidance, the tutoring. We have tutoring labs in this department. And our own academic counselors in there too. We were just like, Here's your head plan. And IGETC [Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum; course that California community college students can complete to satisfy general education requirements] and all that other stuff that goes along with, you know, students that are getting ready to transfer. And Transitions fell into the lap of Noel Gomez in the early, his name was Noel Gomez. And we pretty much formulated the program together. He was working at administration. We had the students do the work. We started collaborating. He still runs to this day. He runs the Transitions Program. And he is the EOPS director now too, or interim director, I think. Visintainer: Okay. Leyva: So he stayed in the same field doing the same work. And it's just it's cool to still have those ties, those connections and still watching him do such beautiful work and be a mentor to me, you know, So. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 11 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: So you mentioned that the college gave you a meeting space. And then… and then you get your first kind of cohort together. What was the-- can you talk about the first meeting that you had? Leyva: With the school or with the students? Visintainer: With the students? Leyva: <laughs> Yeah. ‘Cause that was interesting because they said, “You can start your own program, or you can start this program. Can you get students?” And I said, “Yes.” The first meeting was really interesting because we had a small group of students who had already started community college who were helping. But I remember just like they're like, “Just make a flyer.” And I had no idea I can make a really fancy flyer now. Back then I said I think I even said “Transitions Program.” Program-- ex-convicts I think was written on the flyers. Very unethical or very, like, these are not the language we're using anymore. But I had the, the email and the phone number to call. I remember making-- so funny because I made a Word document and I put the information on the top and then a copy and paste and put it below and then printed 'em out and then cut 'em in half. Like this, this is like my ideal of making flyers, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I remember, like my first conversation with students or potential students is every time I was at the parole office, I'd show up like, “Hey man, you should try to go to school where, you know, we got this program going off in school.” Most people were like, uninterested or like, no, I remember even seeing one guy, he's like, “Oh, yeah, I'll check it out.” And then he crumbled it up and threw it away. Right. But I'd show up to the courthouse and I'd see folks walking out of the court and I'd be like, you know, “Hey, you should try coming to school, try going to school.” I'd put flyers in the sober living homes, or I'd go to sober living homes and hand out flyers or and so it was, it was that conversation. It wasn't just me. It was me and Malik and Tyrone. And even in our neighborhoods where we'd know people who were our friends that are formerly incarcerated, it'd be like, “Hey, you should try home to school.” And we already knew that they were kind of tired of the old lifestyle too so they were like, “Yeah, I'll try it out.” And it just quickly-- that was the first meetings. That was the first conversations about going to school. And I also knew that when they did come up to school, that I would have to show 'em, this is where the-- this is how you feel like application. This is where you do your FAFSA [Free Application for Federal Aid]. This is, you know, this is a financial aid, academic counseling or academic advising or, everything my niece showed me, I showed them. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 12 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And everything I wanted to know, I was asking EOPS counselors and director, you know, “What do I do if a student asked about a job?” And they're like, “Oh, go to Human Resources. See what jobs are available on campus, make sure they have federal work study.” So I learned it all pretty quickly. And that was the conversations with students. Cause I'm like, “Look, we can you get a job up here, you can do, you can get food up here.” They were, you know, there's you know, there's-- I have a learning disability, so I was a part of the DSS, the Disabled Students Program. And I was like, “Look, if you got learning disabilities,” and you know trying to break that stigma too right away. Right. So it's all about gathering resources. And every time I've met with a group of students, potential students, or individually, it was like all this information that I was giving 'em. Right. So it was quickly getting the buy in, but I also felt really good about what I was doing. Yeah. You know, and that it felt good to be like, “Yeah, okay, I'll do it. I'll sign up.” And then you just meet 'em at the campus and you're filling out the application. Just at that time, it was just one finger typing too. Cause I didn't know how to type either, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I, you know, I just, it just felt good. And they did, there was a lot of, still to this day, people come into college and this community college, or even come to the university, there's that imposter syndrome. “I can't do it.” And it’s just like, “Yes you can. Yes you can.” And you know, it's still, yeah. That was the first conversation. And it's-- and it feels like it still happens to this day. Right. Even though we got somewhat of a formula, we have great people, great resources. It feels like those first conversations happen all the time. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And which even though a lot of things have changed, the individual self hasn’t. “I don't believe in myself, I can't do it.” And it's like, “Yes, you can. Yes you can.” It feels like 2007 and 2022, those conversations are still the same. Right. So Yeah. It's conversations happen on a regular, so. Visintainer: You've talked to a couple times about Imposter Syndrome and that's like, so rampant in academia. Leyva: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 13 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: And then you throw students that are maybe not familiar with an academic environment into the mix, and you add all these barriers, these like bureaucratic and logistical barriers, like university campuses are not necessarily easy places to navigate. Especially for folks that aren't familiar with them. So how did you go about addressing and facilitating students to be successful? Navigating the bureaucracy? Leyva: You just show up <laughs>, you know what I mean? You just show up. You don't wanna show up or you feel you're gonna get push back or you feel like you don't belong. I mean, there's so many feelings even now. I mean, I still deal with that now and my role in administration and I love this campus because it's been very supportive of the programs, of me, of our students. It’s a great community. Even Palomar, MiraCosta is very open. But you just show up. You just, you just show up. And I think for me, and I think also too, for a lot of our students, we know it's waiting for us if we don't show up, you know. We know what the other side of this looks like. The gangs, the drugs, the alcohol, the jails, the prisons. And that's not for all, all of us, right? There's not drugs and alcohol with everybody. But we understand what's on the other side. If we're not doing this, what else do we have? Right? And so we just show up and it feels good to actually do this work. And when that imposter syndrome or you know, that belief in self isn't there, or our value is low, self-esteem is low, we still just show up. You know, we show up. And I, you know, I think I've seen people show up and I'm like, “God, I have to do that.” Cause I get in my own head. And I know that same thing when I show up, other people show up and it's like we're there. Right. You just show up and the bureaucracy is the bureaucracy, it's gonna be there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: When I'm getting pushback, not the funding or, “You can't do that program,” or you can't, you know, it's like I always tell folks we've heard no so many times their life is here. No. Again, it's not gonna hurt us, but we're still gonna show up, you know? And I think that we've had a lot of doors closed our faces or a lot of denials for jobs or resources. And it happens with formerly incarcerated folks it happens and it's gonna, it's gonna happen even more, but we're still gonna show up. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And we're still gonna show that we can do the work. We're gonna do the work. And statistically thinking or talking that's like all incarcerated people in the United States, 95% of people are coming home someday. And that always is one of those driving things to say, like, coming home to what? Let's create something so that when they do come home, there's resources in the community. There's resources in academia, there's resources that're gonna help their mental health, their PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder], their you know, and we have to, we have to build those really soft landings for folks to come Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 14 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 home and have a fighting chance to make it in society. You know? And I think that we live within a system that still, even though we see a lot of positivity and we're going in the right direction, there's still a lot of barriers. There's still a lot of doubt. There's still an industrial complex in the prison that relies on our labor, relies on our, the exploitation of who we are. There's still laws and policies and politicians that say, “Well, we can create these laws and policies to continue funneling people into the prison system.” It still exists. And it's-- I mean, we still have the thirteenth Amendment <laughs>, you know, we're still combating just the thirteenth amendment alone, let alone all these local laws and policies that just flood our jails and prisons. We just show up. We continue to do the work, and we continue to role model. We continue to, to, you know, I love watching people like you know, Frankie Guzman up in Oakland who's you know, a formerly incarcerated lawyer who's a policy lawyer, you know James Binnall from Long Beach, he's a professor, Dr. James Binnall, who-- he's a formerly incarcerated lawyer, he did his LSATs [Law School Admission Test] in prison, and now he's a professor and he does a lot of policy work. And it's like folks like that; they're inspiring. You know what I mean? They're inspiring. It's like, you know, we-- again, they show up. I show up, they’re motivation for me. And I can just rattle off a bunch of names of people who are formerly incarcerated who’re serious allies for this population. And they want to, they want to do, they wanna do great work. Or they do great work. And it's just like that, that encourages me to continue doing the best work I can. Visintainer: Yeah. It sounds like tenacity then is a really big ingredient to success? Leyva: Yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some other characteristics or expand upon that if you want, but I was just curious, like, what are the characteristics that you feel are really important to build, uh, for folks to build when they're getting out of prison? Leyva: I always tell folks this: I say, “Greatest education that you have is your own lived experience.” Right. That we use every time we've had a door shut in our face, every time we've been denied something, every time we've been at the lowest place in our life. Like those, that's the motivator to create change. That right there should be single-handedly the thing we use to create change. So you know, our strength is just who we are. You know, I've seen unfortunate-- some of the-- California Department of Corrections is a hard place to live. Yeah. You know, there's everything from drugs and alcohol and violence and Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 15 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 assault and denial of medical, mental health services, medical services, it's hard. And it's like that right there though is probably one of the greatest teachers we have that builds our character up to be like, “I don't wanna take no for an answer. No, I'm here. I'm gonna do something else.” Right. And I always tell folks, it gives us a reason to fight, a reason to <unintelligible>. And obviously not talking physically, but mentally, emotionally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Politics and, you know, getting involved with like, you know, they should build us up to this place where we feel empowered to create change. We already have it. We've already been to the lowest places that society can send us. Right. And I think that we can only go up from here if we stop colluding with the system that's there. Right. We have to stop colluding with it. Visintainer: Yeah. What, what do you mean by that? Colluding with the system? Leyva: You know, we bump up against it. You know, it's just same thing if you-- when an individual, and I see this happen, and it's disheartening when an individual loses a job or can't get a job and he or she knows that, you know, the informal economy exists, like selling drugs or, you know, hustling for what they need. I respect that. You gotta do what you have to do as a person, as a family person. But we get denied jobs, get denied access to certain resources, and then our only, we can resort back to some drug sales or some criminal activity. We're colluding with them. We're actually saying, “Well you know, you're gonna call me bad or create this level where I can't succeed. I'm gonna do what I have to do.” And we go back to colluding with the system that send us to jail or prison. Stick with it. Stay within the long haul. We're always gonna get what we want. But, and the more we collude with the system, the more we actually allow the system to say, “This is why we need laws and policies. This is why crime rates are the way they are. This is—" And so it's like it's like we have to just really try our best to not collude with that system but change that system. And as insiders, we can change the prison system. We can change the laws around gang injunctions, mandatory minimums, three strikes laws, and all these things that are created through laws and policies. Why can't we become the politicians to change that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Formerly incarcerated people can be politicians. You know, we can actually be [on] school boards, city councils, county supervisors, all the way to the state level, all the way to the federal level. We can be politicians and instead of colluding with this criminality as they used the word, you know, let's just bump Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 16 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 up against the system and change the system. Make it work for all people. So it's fair and just and equitable. And that's what we push. That's what I push, you know? And, you know, and I'm not alone. There's a lot of beautiful people doing great work out there. Men and women, gay, straight, able, disabled. There's a lot of formerly incarcerated people who are doing this work that, you know, we just, yeah. We just put our best foot forward and keep walking. <laughs> Visintainer: I was curious if there was any particular like majors or disciplines that students that you mentor through either Transitions or Project Rebound here if they tend to gravitate towards any specific majors, disciplines in academia? Leyva: Yeah. The biggest one we see across the state, not just here at Cal State San Marcos, across the state, is usually sociology and criminology, right? Because we want to, we come from that. We know that so well and we do that. But also like human services, like counselors, drug and alcohol treatment counselors MSWs [Master’s of Social Work], because we want to, we also wanna help, right? We're very empathetic. Some of the majors they don't gravitate to, which I'm actually excited about at Cal State San Marcos, it's usually like STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] fields. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: We do have four students here at Cal State San Marcos that are in STEM, which is probably the most, because we don't gravitate to it. We gravitate towards how can we create change. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So sociology, criminology, justice studies, MSW, counseling. Those are the main fields. You know, some psychology ‘cause you do-- we're helpers. We want formerly incarcerated folks want to help out another individual. My goal is to get people into political science and other fields to be like, “Let's go to Washington.” You know what I mean? Let's get in those halls. Yeah. And you can do that with sociology and stuff. But those are the main, those are the big disciplines or the big majors that people go into. And that was mine, bachelor's degree in psychology. My master's degree in sociology. And my doctorate will be in education. And that's all because I want to create, understand these systems so well that I could create the change within 'em, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 17 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 And that's formerly incarcerated folks. I got a group of twenty-two formerly incarcerated students at MiraCosta right now. And all of 'em say same thing. I want to help people. So I wanna do sociology. I wanna become a counselor, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And I'm like, “Where's my politicians at though?” You know what I mean? Where's my <laughs>? Where's my—'cause you know, there's also, they understand that, you know, some of 'em say they want to be nurses, but there's no access to nursing if you're formally incarcerated. There's a lot of fields that uh-- actually not a whole lot. Nursing is one. Education is another. ‘Cause a lot of times if you're formally incarcerated, you can't go back in the high schools to teach, can't get your credentials if you're formerly incarcerated, which I think should change. I think we would make great teachers, especially of high school students. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there would be real value in, in having people who are formerly incarcerated in classrooms. Leyva: Yeah. And we see that too, because when I was in Santa Barbara, I was working in the high schools teaching social and emotional intelligence and social justice work through a non-profit. And the high schools over there saw my value. Out here, we could take Project Rebound students and other students we work in, you know, continuation high schools and court, juvenile court community schools, and those schools sees the value of formerly incarcerated students coming into their school, doing the mentorship, doing all that stuff. And there is a lot of value in it, you know, and not just, I mean, you know, we gravitate towards drug and alcohol treatment or counseling because we understand those folks really well. We also understand marginal high school students and middle school students, they say, “Let us in here” because we can actually really change the outcome for a lot of the students, especially our Black and Brown students that get targeted in other places other than the schools; their communities, even their homes. We can actually-- I feel like we can really do a lot of work in that area, but until the policies around hiring formerly incarcerated folks to work in high schools, to work as teachers, to work as nurses, caretakers… The other thing too is we're doing that work in prison. Nurses in prison exist, but some of the main caretakers-- people doing like CNA [Certified Nursing Assistant] work or LVN [Licensed Practical Nurse] work, they're inmates. They're, I don't really want to use the word inmates anymore. They're incarcerated folks doing that type of work. They're caretaking for elders, they’re caretaking for people with terminal illness. They're doing dentistry work. They're being, you know, incarcerated folks are already doing that work. We, they allow us to do it there, but as soon as we step out of the prison, “Oh, you're not allowed to do that work anymore.” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and it's like, we can benefit. We have a big benefit to society if you allow us to do that work. Right. Just like incarcerated firefighters, they're out here fighting some of the biggest fires. We can do it, we can do it while we're in prison, but we come out and we can't join a fire station. And the laws, that's the other thing too. That's another part of where laws have changed. Now formerly incarcerated firefighters can get a job doing forestry fighting now. And that's, you know our next step is let us in the firehouses in the cities, right? Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 18 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So small policy changes, small changes are happening. Visintainer: And how does employment in prison happen? Leyva: Ah, that's a good question. You know, you go to prison and there's a couple ways. One if you're an incarcerated folk like I was, I had to serve eighty-five percent of my sentence. So a lot of resources for somebody already serving that much time. You kind of get put on the back burner. There's also a population of incarcerated folks that go and do, they have to do fifty percent of the time. So they get sentenced to ten years. They only do five. They have to earn that five years. So they put 'em to work right away. And then also if you're, if you're lucky enough to just be like, I got certain skills. ‘Cause they do, they run your resume. “What kind of work have you done? What kind of skills do you have?” And they'll place you if there's jobs available, right? So it all really depends what skills you have, how much time you have. So there's a few defining things that get work. But you know, when you go to prison and you get a job, I was a landscaper in prison and it was a job I landed just because somebody was going home and they made a recommendation saying, “Hey Martin should do this job,” right? So they hired me right away and it was… The pay scale. I think the pay scale recently changed. So they're hiring certain people with certain jobs that actually is a decent wage. But I was making thirteen cents an hour in prison. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And because they had restitution, they were taking fifty-five percent of my thirteen cents to pay back restitution. And so at the end of a month, you get paid once a month. maybe able to buy maybe a jar coffee, <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. Jar of coffee, a couple soups and not a whole lot coming from there, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 19 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: So and there's still a lot of prisons that are still paying their people cause they're still paying folks. Pennies, pennies on the dollar, you know. Visintainer: And is that based out of like some sort of private company using labor? Leyva: Um. Visintainer: Why is there, uh, why is there such a huge disparity between the wages that somebody's being paid when they're incarcerated and somebody that's not incarcerated doing the same work? Leyva: It's just the exploitation of labor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Depending on what you're doing inside prison, what prison, what industry is contracted with the prison because certain, you know, IBM and Levi jeans and, you know, no longer Victoria's Secret, but there's a lot of companies that contract with the prison industry for cheap labor. Right? So it just depends on those contracts. And that's the rise of mass incarceration though, right? You can actually have companies and corporations that on Wall Street, stock market, made in America. You know, you be careful. Chevron and Exxon, they all have a lot of products made in prison. There’re so many companies that use prison labor cause it's cheap and they can say that their product is being made in the USA right? And it sucks. Even like the federal prison system for instance, they have a corporation called UNICOR [Federal Prison Industries] and they make all like military flak jackets and military gear. And yes, they're made in the USA but they're made by cheap labor, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And again, given that we're doing the labor in prison, we're getting the skills, much needed skills, but it doesn't equate to jobs as soon as we leave prison. And I think that's where, you know, I'm glad to be working while I'm in prison, keeping our minds busy staying active, which is good. But you know, you've Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 20 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 got the private prison industry, it's, you know, you got an entire industry that's on Wall Street. People can actually put money in the stock market and just relies on the exploitation of people. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's kind of a gross system that we have <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I've seen the labor, you know, everything from making our license plates to maybe a lot of this furniture that's actually here was built in prison. Our shoes, our clothing items, everything that we have is actually built in prison. So it's like there's an entire industry that relies on our labor, you know? There's another thing: a lot of people don't really understand that, you know? They think that jobs went overseas. Yes. Jobs went over overseas for sure, but jobs also went into the prison system. Jobs that could have been for a lot of people. So we can't blame fully overseas. We blame our prison system and the allowance of written contracts to have this labor be done there. You know? And a lot of people are just, they don't… They're just not well informed about what's really going on. Right. And so yeah. One, I'm glad that was working ‘cause I would drive myself nuts if I wasn't. But it's also like, you know, you’re completely exploiting, you know, my labor. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. When you were a landscaper, excuse me. So you were landscaping like outside of the prison? Leyva: No, it was on the inside. It was on the inside, Yeah. And, you know, it was sure around some of the offices, never was allowed off the grounds in the prison system. But the aesthetics of the prison was important for the face. Right. It has to look good on the outside. The inside was really quite run down, but the outside, the grass was cut nicely. The hedges were trimmed, the flowers were growing on the outside. And that's what you're doing. And trust me, I really enjoyed it ‘cause I like being in the sun. I love gardening. I love plants. I love the work. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 21 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 But, you know, yeah, it was-- I was happy to do the work. I wasn't, you know, especially then I was like, “Oh, I'm cool with this job. I like these thirteen cents an hour,” because I was misinformed. I was uneducated. Soon as I came home, and I knew that there was like some exploitation happening, [unclear] understand it, you know, on the outside I'd be getting paid ten dollars an hour, fifteen dollars an hour, whatever I was doing on the outside. And in here it sucks to get thirteen cents an hour or whatever. But now that I'm in academe, I'm educated, I understand these, how the system allows for this to happen with the thirteenth amendment and all these laws and policies and how I really honestly feel like even in education, how I was targeted as a Brown male, it all makes sense to me when I see the rise of the prison system, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: At one point, crime rate, crime rates are kind of going up right now, but for the longest time, crime rates were dropping. Were on a steady decline, but our prison system kept growing. And it took education for me to really understand what is happening with laws and policy, what is happening with contracts in the prison system, what is happening with our politicians who are, you know, law and order issue. You know, “We need to get crime under control!” I'm like, crime rates are dropping though. Why is our prison population 2.3 million people in the United States if crime rates are dropping now, Covid and everything else. Yeah. Crime rates are, are rising, but they're not at a dangerous level. Right. Where our prison system stays at the same amount of people. You know, we can, I love research <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I love research, right? Visintainer: Yeah. And I don't know if this is necessarily a question, but then there's also, you know, I've been seeing like people talking about New York, the crime rates are not actually rising, but there's this narrative that the crime rates in the city are rising. So you have like Adams, the mayor, you know, running on this like tough on crime cop platform and getting elected. And so, I don't know, I don't know what my question is, but I think there's something there too with, with media narratives being-Leyva: Oh, yeah. I mean that's huge for us. And it's also the time of the year too, right? With, with elections coming up, obviously gonna be this focus on crime and crime in America and all these things. And they're gonna, it's easy for politicians and media to be like, “Well, this crime happened in Chicago, this crime happened in New York, and they could be like all people, right?” It's like, no, that was an incident. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 22 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Right? And it's gonna happen at this time of the year during elections, midterm elections presidential elections. It's gonna, you're gonna hear about how horrible we are, right? And as soon as the elections stop, you'll go, we'll go focus on something else, Right? Monkey Pox or something else, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's always gonna be something to focus on. But right now, crime rates are the thing because of this media. And that's the interesting thing is how we always, I always call this the sandwich effect, right? When you take media and they'll start the conversation with “murderers this, murderers that,” and then they'll have like this middle part of like low-level crimes and criminals, and which is a huge bulk of the percentage of people in prison are crimes that are just like, you know, stealing or property crimes or something that's not dangerous, but it is a crime. So you start off with murderers and murderers and all these violent crimes, which is a very small percentage. And then you talk about this big section of people who are low level crimes and petty criminals, whatever they call 'em. It's a huge percentage of our prison system. And then you end with like rapists and child molesters, people who are misinformed through our media, they hear murderers and then something else, and then they'll end with like murders and rapists, and that's where they lump everybody up. But our major prison population is really people that are like systematically inundated with inequality, lack of access to jobs, lack of access to resources like medical, and they commit crimes that are like informal economies. They're like, you know, petty thief or selling drugs or, you know, something-- that's the bulk of our prison system. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But media more entrepreneurship says murderers, killers and violent crime, and then they end with murder or rapists and child molesters. And that's a very small percentage of our prison population. You know? And but when you, when you start with that and end with this? We're all bad people. Right. And it's not… Yeah, I'm so critical about media <laughs>, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: ‘Cause they, they strategically figured out how to get the vote. You know? And I'm not talking about, I'm not voting for one. It's like, you know, liberal Democrats are one way and conservative Republicans are another. And I kind of feel like, no, there's a lot of in between that we're ignoring you know? There's a lot of great politicians or people who are just silenced by these two big conglomerates. Right. And they're supported by these big media corporations. And they're all-- I would say they're all in it together. Let's just be very critical about them. That's my job as a citizen, as an educator, is let's just be critical about our government, the systems that run our government, the corporations that run our Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 23 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 government. Because if it isn't about the prison system, it's also about lack of education for people. It's also about lack of medical care. It's a lack of good livable wages. You know what I mean? There's so much more if we just remove the prison system, there's so much more to focus on. We just need to be critical about the entire system we're living in. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I think Covid taught me that because we breathe the same air, we should be talking about the same things. Right? <laughs> One person gets sick. We should all think about, we all can get sick too, right? And I think there's an illness with the prison system. It impacts us all. Your tax dollars, my tax dollars. I think there's forty-five percent of people in the United States who have a loved one in prison or who know somebody's been locked up. Some major portion of our population who know somebody's impacted by the prison system. We should all be focusing on it together. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. And we're the largest carcell-. Sorry, I didn't have trouble with this word. Leyva: Carceral. Visintainer: Carceral, Thank you. Leyva: Yeah. <Laughs> Visintainer: Carceral country on earth, aren't we? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I always say it's a, you know, United States is five percent of the world's population, but twenty-five percent of the world's prison population. It's pretty wild. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 24 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and you think, like, you know, China and other countries are bigger than ours, but they, they have less prison system. Right. And it's again, we can get into the exploitation of labor. But-Visintainer: Yeah. And I do want to talk about systems with you, but could we shift for a little bit and talk a little bit about kind of your journey to where you got and then I want to follow up with systems. I got some kind of more big picture questions for you. So I just wanted to ask, where did you grow up? Leyva: Born and raised in Santa Barbara [California]. I always have to name my neighborhood. The west side of Santa Barbara is my home. I love that place. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Don't want to ever want to move back, but I love that place. <laughs> Visintainer: Yeah. What do you love about it? Leyva: It's just a great little community. It's beautiful beaches, mountains family still there. A lot of history there. When I go back, just like cruising certain neighborhoods, certain streets. It's just a lot of-- it's just a beautiful place. Visintainer: Yeah. What did in your childhood, what did your community look like? Leyva: It's interesting you ask that question because growing up my community was just like, it's a beautiful community. A lot of good little restaurants, a lot of good neighbors, a lot of good food, a lot of good communities. But you don't know what you don't know, right? But it was a lot of poverty, a lot of crime, a lot of sadness, a lot of hardships. But you don't really see that when you're in the middle of it. Right. You don't really ever, you don't ever really critique it when you're like, this is my life. Right. So it was, there was a lot of that and a lot of-- there's a lot of beautiful community built around this ugly thing, you know what I mean? Like the crime and the police and, you know, the lack of schools. But if you don't Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 25 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 know what it is, you just, and that's all you know, and you're accepted, right? Yeah. It is beautiful. My family, my mom, my two sisters, and, you know, cousins and community members-- its good people all around. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. What were some of the gathering places? Leyva: The gathering places in my community growing up? The home is always one. That's the best one. But, you know, our, you know, little parks. And for me, I like this question actually, the gathering places. I don't know why the… places like Oak Park and Alameda Park, these places are ringing a bell, but also the corners. Right. thinking one in particular. San Andres and Micheltorena Street, like those were the gathering spots. Those are like—Bath and Ortega Street. You just see the little cornerstore friends and family gathered there, you know? Yeah. Starting trouble or laughing or yelling at each other or something. But yeah, those are-- I like that question. Visintainer: Yeah. What did Oak Park look like? Leyva: Was Oak Park and Ortega Park were the two main parks and I’m thinking Oak Park was just that a lot of oak trees, a lot of barbecue pits what they would call the kiddie pool. Right. The pool that's only like a foot deep and the playground. And on weekends there was the smell of barbecue and beer <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Visintainer: You know, and Ortega Park is still to this day, one of the most beautiful places there in Santa Barbara because there's same thing, the swimming pool, the playground, the basketball courts, the soccer field, and it's just a block wide. It's not even that big of a park. But there's murals, right? That's like kind of Santa Barbara's own Chicano Park. It's just one little area. Okay. But there's murals on the wall and there's growing up I didn't see the, the crime that was happening, the drug you started, I didn't see that stuff because that's just, you're in the mix, right? You're in the, that's just what happens there. Now I can see it differently through different spectacles, but yeah, it was just the same thing. The smell of barbecue and beer and laughing and music, you know what I mean? Visintainer: Did you have a favorite mural or do you have a favorite mural? Leyva: God, I wish I could show you the picture of it. Yes. There's like this Aztec warrior mural and it was just like this side view. A guy named Manuel Unzueta is the muralist and he's from Santa Barbara. He did a lot of the murals there. But yeah, it was like this Aztec god kind of person. And back then I wasn't really Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 26 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 like really into the history yet as I am now, but I remember going back to Ortega Park after being educated after coming home from prison and be like this, like now there's like a connection, not only that's my childhood, but also like academically thinking like I understand the history of where we come from, right? Yeah. So but also I love bright colors and love like images, so yeah. That was, that was one that always stood out. Visintainer: You talked about barbecue a couple times. What kind of barbecue? What did folks like to barbecue? Leyva: Oh, you know, tri-tip and chicken! Santa Barbara, it was Santa Maria nearby. Santa Maria is the birthplace of tri-tip. And so this tri-tip and chicken and corn wrapped in foil, <laughs> put on the barbecue pit. And that was, that was the thing. Visintainer: That sounds good. Leyva: Yeah. <laughs> Visintainer: Who were your childhood role models? Leyva: Um. My childhood role models. Quote unquote the “bad guys.” I didn't see 'em as bad guys, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's funny because uh, just had this conversation earlier today, but you know, family members, like my uncles, you know, they were the cool guys who dressed nice, who got the handshakes, who got the respect in the neighborhood. And again, growing up in that, you don't see or think about the negativity that's going on. But they were my role models because they were the ones who like would give me a hug and tell me they loved me or tell me they see me or buy me a coke or an ice cream. Right? And you look up to that, right? Not understanding that the money that they used to buy that stuff for people in the neighborhood, like little kids in the neighborhood also came from drug sales. You don't see that, or nor do you even think about that. You just know that these role models were like the men who were, you know, the men who actually recognized me and saw me. The women who would always be like, “Are you doing your homework?” And, you know, and the women weren't particularly like into a positive lifestyle either, but they would use terms like mijo or mi rey, right? “My little king.” And they would always say, you know, go to school and do good. And the kid, the men would be like, “Don't get into trouble.” You know what I mean? You know, but if you got in trouble, they'd be like, “Good job.” You know what I mean? <laughter> So it’s like one on one hand, don't get in trouble. Second hand like, Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 27 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 alright, good job! You know what I mean? So yeah. They were, they were the ones that actually saw us for who we were. Right. And I love having that experience in life and now being able to see it from a different vantage point. Right. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: They were just doing the best they can with what they had. Right. And that they had a-- you know, my mom and my stepdad and my uncles and all the other men and women in the neighborhood giving me the best they can with their own unresolved trauma. Right. That they did the best they can and that their life was better than what they had when they were kids. And that my life was better than they had it. And that my generation after me, my kids have it better than what I had it. And that's the trajectory of life right, now that I'm able to see it from a vantage point. Absolutely. Love those role models. You know, even though now I'm like, “Ah, you were doing some shady stuff, but I love you for it.” You know what I mean? So, Yeah. Visintainer: What did your stepdad and your mom do? Did they do for a living? Leyva: My mom main job was house cleaning, cleaning hotel rooms or cleaning houses or factory work. And my stepdad was a-- he worked in a nursery and a, he worked in a nursery taking care of plants and also a mechanic at the nursery. That was their main industry. You know, I was, I did the first gen talk today and that was interesting. I'm a first-generation college student. College, school wasn't that important to my family. Work was, you know, they valued work over education. You know and working hard too. I think I got my work ethic from my mom. My mom sometimes especially after my stepdad left, would work, guaranteed two jobs and sometimes if she could three jobs, which wasn't the best for my upbringing pertaining to like a mom I could come home to and do homework with. I never grew up with that. Right? So, you know, I left high school in ninth grade, so prior to going to prison and getting my high school diploma in prison, I was, had a ninth-grade education. And so that's what I felt like when I entered these spaces. I'm like, I've a ninth-grade education ‘cause I don't remember my high school diploma. But, you know, thinking about my mom, I mean, that was, you know, she was, she's a hard worker. She was a hard worker. She retired early because she worked so hard. Right. Medically retired. But yeah, it was uh… good work ethic I'll tell that. Show up to work and were just sick or not, show up <laughs>. I'm like-- When I'm sick. But she's like, “No, you gotta go to work.” I'm like, all right. Going to work sick. But going. Visintainer: Yeah. We come back to tenacity then. Leyva: Yeah. <laughs> Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 28 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Yeah. Can you tell me about the first time that you got in legal trouble? Leyva: Yeah. About fifteen [years old]. I mean, kind of a funny story, but you know, I got in trouble for stealing mopeds. I remember going to court for it and like, “Why are you stealing mopeds?” Or, you know, they didn't ask the question. I just wanted to ride a moped. I didn’t to sell it or try to make money. I was just like, I learned how to hot wire a moped. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And as soon as I did that, every time I saw a little Honda Spree, I pop the top, pop the front cover off and pull the wire and it'd just kick right over. And it was just fun. And you know, I got in trouble for having, I think like three Honda Sprees in my backyard, you know, and got popped and got in trouble and, you know, I'm, you know, committing crimes you know. Visintainer: And how did you learn how to hot wire a moped? Leyva: Once again, observational learning. Yeah. I think I think there's this like misunderstanding how people commit crimes and yeah. Certain people will teach you how to do certain things, but for a majority of people in prison, we just learned by observation. You know, I saw this older guy in my neighborhood and I don't even remember. He's like, “I gotta go!” And he went up to this Honda Spree, he did like the little move. And he just took a little knife out of his pocket and popped it and I saw him take the wires out and jumped on it and kick started it. And just hit the handlebars cause the handlebars had the little lock on it. The lock broke real easy. And he just took off. You know, I was like, “I'm gonna try that.” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and then I saw a Honda Spree and I know stealing ain't nice. I know it's wrong, but at the time you're like, that was so cool. How did you do that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 29 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: I saw a Honda Spree downtown one day and I think it took me a little longer <laughs> to get it going, but as soon as I got it going, there was a rush. Right. And again, I'm not saying it was okay cause it's not. But that rush felt good. Visintaienr: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I saw him, I'm like, “Ah, where'd you get that little, where'd you get that little Honda?” I'm like, “I took it.” He's like, “Oh, let me take it.” And he took it from me. Right. So it's like when you steal a bike in the neighborhood, it becomes a neighborhood bike. Everybody's using the same stolen bike. Right. And yeah. It's just a thing to do right? Through observations. Even like I talk about my addiction cause I was addicted to substances and alcohol. And I say it openly with students. I was addicted to heroin for a long time, and it wasn't like somebody taught me how to do it. It wasn’t… You weren't literally taught how to do it. You just see it happening. And when you see it happening, it just becomes, “I know how to do that,” because you saw somebody else how to unfortunately use drugs, whether intravenously or not, you just learn it by watching. And I think that's how we learn how to say the things we say, dress how we dress, act like we act, respond, how we respond, whether you know, violence was never taught to me, but it's something I grew up watching. Right. I remember everything from like learning how to express sadness. I remember my stepdad would be like mad, like sad and then he would just like hit the door with his hand. And when you're a little kid and you're watching that or he'd say like, I'm so mad. And then he hit something. If I'm mad too, I gotta hit something. Right. And it's everything with committing crimes to expressing feelings and emotions. It's all observational. Visintainer: Yeah. So, is there an analog to the work you do now? Providing-Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Providing, modeling for people that are learning? Leyva: Yeah. Emotional intelligence and emotional management. When we feel something, you know, it's me. I've been clean and sober nineteen years and when my mom died four years ago, because I trained my mind that when I feel a big emotion, my mind goes automatically to the reaction, which is the drug use the violence or whatever. Even though my mind thought about it, I've taught myself that there's no visceral reaction. My biological response doesn't have to, I don't have to do these things. I don't have to act out in these ways. And so when I work with individuals around emotional management and understanding that we have no control over our emotions, you're gonna feel something, you're gonna feel it! But how we respond to it, the emotional management part is how we should focus on. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 30 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Mindfulness, meditation, taking a deep breath, taking a step back. I always say, “Pretend you're the outsider looking in.” Take a step back and take a look at what is gonna hap-- what you know is gonna happen or what you feel is gonna happen and respond from that place rather than inside of it. And I'm also big on dismantling patriarchy ‘cause I feel like patriarchy is the number one pusher of so many systemic issues of oppression. Even the war in Ukraine is patriarchy. Right. Like patriarchy is very dangerous. And as somebody who is raised in it and colluded with it, they've created it so well… I want my kids to have a good understanding of who their father is. Not in that violent state, but in this healed or healing individual who can talk about feelings and emotions, who can allow myself to cry without feeling something I couldn't, I could wear a pink shirt and pink socks without somebody saying something to me because I'm very comfortable with who I am. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And I think that working with individuals that becomes my educational piece, is we have to really learn who we are and how we respond. Because how we respond sometimes takes us to the places we are, the jails and the prisons, our addictions, our own self harm, our own self destruction. I love these places, these places. And education has given me this understanding of who society constructs me to be versus who I want to be. And a lot of times we follow the construction because they make it glorious or cool or like, this is all I have. It's not all we have, we're meant to be other people. We're meant to be who we really are. Empathetically, empathetic, caring, understanding, loving, warm, you know. So yeah. I teach a lot of emotional intelligence to our students. ‘Cause I think we need to be there for our families and our communities. And we can't do that if we're angry or mad or not-- being angry or mad is okay. But how we respond to it is different. Right. We shouldn't have to respond in negative ways, you know? And so far so good. I've been doing this work for a long time. I see a lot of change. So, you know. Visintainer: That is beautiful statement. Thank you. Um, I don't know, I think a lot about, you know, growing up in patriarchy and masculinity and how harmful, like, I didn't even know how harmful it was, you know? Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: And yeah, I don't know. I'm glad you're doing the work at dismantling it, I guess is all I have to say about it. Leyva: <laughs> Yeah. No, it's an uphill battle sometimes, right? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 31 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Yeah. Leyva: But I always say, you know what, in football they always say it's a ten-yard fight. Just go ten yards and start again. Go ten yards, start again. And but I feel it's an obligation too, it's an obligation. And I want to, if there's one way to shut down the prison system is really help people stop going. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know. That's the goal. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you had three mopeds in your backyard. So how did you, how did you get caught? Leyva: Just being reckless, right. Driving without, you know, back then you didn't need a helmet. But you know, driving through my neighborhood and just crossing stop signs and cops, you know, or like, I remember one time I was driving. And if you remember the Honda Sprees, they had like this little section where you put your little feet right? And I was driving and had one guy standing right in front of me. So I was leaning to the side to look where I was going. And then I had another friend of mine sitting behind me. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So, three people on a small Honda Spree, cop saw us and said, pull ‘em over. Right. And as soon as I stopped, my two friends just took off. And I'm like, “Well, here I am.” Right. And so obviously the cop could see the wires on hanging on the side and, you know, it's so funny to think back at the little things I used to do and be like, how did I think I can get away with this stuff? You know? And that's how you got caught. Just being reckless and I guess funny at the same time. But, you know, the, the consequence isn't something to laugh at, right. <Laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know. So-- Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 32 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Did you go to juvenile detention? Leyva: Went to juvenile detention. Juvenile court. Mom was always working. So my sister, remember my sister going to court with me, they were both older than me. Back then it really was a slap on the wrist, a little juvenile detention you know, a little probation check-in here and there. You know, the more I got in trouble... I dunno life moved really fast ‘cause actually, you know, I'm eighteen and going in and out the county jail again for, you know, driving cars without licenses for DUIs [Driving Under the Influence], for stolen-- possession of stolen property. Not like, and not saying that DUIs is not a big deal, it's a huge deal But you know, nothing really big or major. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Levya: Right. No violence. And sure there was violence happening, it just never got caught doing it. Right? And I always tell folks like, I've been really lucky not to go away for the crimes that I have committed. Not to say I should have gotten away with it, but I did. And it's like, also it's another fuel that adds, it's more fuel to be like, “I need to do this work because I know that there's a lot of people doing things they wish they weren't doing and they're just not getting caught for it.” It's like, let's give them another avenue to go down. You know? So but I think my life led to the point where, you know, I got in trouble for selling guns or having, you know, illegal guns and, you know, this stuff was again, all just part of a lifestyle that I was living that, we don't critique it. We're just in the middle of it. All the way to my last, my last prison term which was a robbery, you know, walked into a place and demanded some money, not even demanded it. Just say, “Hey, I need some money.” I knew, I actually knew I would get caught on my last crime. I knew I would get caught. I didn't run, didn't try to pretend it wouldn't happen. Committed a robbery in 2004 and knew I would get in trouble. And I think it was my, I think it was my cry for help because I was so embedded within my addiction and-- no, I felt like I didn't have another way out. I didn't know how to ask for help. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And so when I think about my crimes as a juvenile, just the trajectory of how just, you know, petty crimes to maybe not so petty crimes, but gun sales to more violations of probation to led to, you know, a robbery that wasn't an armed property, I didn't have a knife or gun. But still it was a pretty significant robbery. I think that that time going to prison was my cry for help. You know, I just didn't want to do drugs and alcohol or live this life where I just felt really like in a sense like I wanted to die. Right. I talk to a lot of folks who were formerly incarcerated who say, you know, “I've reached that point where I didn't know what else to do. I'd rather go to prison than have to deal with the struggle out here, the suffering that happens out here.” And I think our prison is full of individuals who feel like they had no other Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 33 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 option. You know, because a lot of times when we grow up in this very patriarchal environment, especially for men to say, “I'm sad, I need help. I wanna change, but I don't know how,” because that's a sign of weakness to say like, “I feel emotional.” And for other men or even women to say, oh, they use these negative connotations. Like stop being-- you know, they relate it to words that are used for women and they just, we don't wanna feel that. So what do we do? Go out, commit a crime, go to prison. And I know I've had conversations with other men in prison and be like, “I just, I'd rather be here than out there.” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I know men who've gone… who are in prison and they, their date, their release date's coming up and they automatically like go after another inmate or they go after a guard and they commit another crime so they can stay longer. I never understood that when I was in prison and then I come home and I start doing this work and I'm like this place is harsh on us. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and there was even a time when I first left prison where I felt like [unclear] I can't get a job. I keep losing this job. You know, I'm sleeping on my sister's couch. You know, my daughter wants to hang out but I don't have money in my pocket. I was like, “Fuck I'd rather be back in prison than have to deal with this stuff.” Right. And I, you know, that was me in 2007 and that's the individual I could talk to right now. Who just got out. It's like. It's easier to live in prison than it is there. You know, you got strict rules and boundaries. But we understand that life. And when I committed my crime in 2004 and I committed the robbery, that was a cry for help. And I'll never say that prison saved my life because it didn't. But it gave me an understanding. Finally I was ready to do the work. You know, something happened all of a sudden where I'm like, I get out and I'm gonna try my best to stay out and I'm gonna be humble. And, you know, if I turned away a lot of friends when I came home from prison because as soon as I got out my neighborhood was like, “Hey, you want to hang out? You wanna do some—Let’s go partying!” For me to say no to the people that I've never said no to was the hardest thing. Right. And that was me facing patriarchy right on. I had a friend when I came home from prison, literally the day after, I hadn't heard from him the entire time I was a prison. He offered me a thousand dollars and an ounce of, of methamphetamines. Right. This was his way to show love his way. He wasn't trying to get me in trouble. He wasn't trying to set me up. But this is my understanding of this is how we take care of each other. And sure. As he's standing in front of me, he's offering me this. “You know, it's just to help you get back on your feet,” is what he said to me. And for me to say no in that moment, I knew that I was defying an entire system that was set up for me. ‘Cause he looked at me and he is like, “Okay, okay. Like, that's kind of weird.” You don't, you don't say no to this in this neighborhood. You don't say no in this culture. You don't say-- you don't deny this offering. But I denied it. And when I denied it, I defied the system that I knew well. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 34 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: And did that, did that sever that relationship? Leyva: It did. I've not talked to the guy ever since. This is fifteen years ago. Visintainer: Do you mourn those relationships that are gone? Leyva: I think there's an emotional and mental and in a way a spiritual transition that needed to happen. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean these just like-- I took care of them. They took care of me. On the outside. They didn't care for me when I was in prison. That's usually what happens. But I knew that once I denied that, if I needed help, he was gonna deny me. Right. Or there needed to be a reckoning of that. And by not hearing from him anymore, I knew that okay, my life. Yeah. You defied this thing and I kind of felt like, okay, my circle all of a sudden got real small. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I just shared today in my talk today, that the more healing one does, the more healing I did, the more work I did on myself, the smaller and smaller my circle gets. Right. Some people just will not accept you anymore unless you're doing what they're doing. As long as they feel like you need them and they need you because misery is old—the saying misery loves company, right? They don't know a lot of people in my community, a lot of people in other areas, they don't know what to do with healed or healing people. Right. And my circle got real, my circle's small to this day, my circle is real small and I think now I prefer it that way. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I feel safer. I feel more included. I seem more like it's easier for me to ask for help. It's easier for me to, to give help. Right. Because a lot of times when you're in the mix of misery, you're carrying the burdens of that too. And I still, I carry a lot of burdens on me ‘cause I got people coming home from prison every single day. People coming home from jail every single day. People relapsing and reaching out. I need help. I need a rehab, or I need a detox or I need something and, and to be of service rather than, you know, to be part of the solution rather than being a part of the problem. It's a, it is a heavy load to carry, but it's a lot lighter than carrying the load of my neighborhood when I denied that guy, my homeboy. I can't, I appreciate you, I love you and thank you for this offer, but I can't accept it. That all of a sudden put, you know, Martin-- the rumors started, Martin is oh, he must have snitched or he must Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 35 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 have done this or he must have done that. Or you know, all of a sudden there's speculation about who I am versus they can't just accept the fact that I want to change my life. Right. But yeah, it's that's a struggle that a lot of incarcerated people are thinking about when they're coming home. And a lot of formerly incarcerated are faced with when they walk outside the door. And they wanna change. You know? And this is why programs like the in the community college or the university are so important because we give people that visibility and understanding that there's nothing wrong with you. And I don't even wanna say there's something wrong with my community because it's a culture that's there, right? But we don't have to partake in that culture anymore. That I can still be me. I can still be aesthetically who I am. I can still understand that. And I don't have to code switch if I don't want to. But again, I don't have to feed into that, you know? And so yeah. We went from my first crime to this <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But it's all, it's all really interconnected because I think that people are committing crimes because we don't know what else to do with ourselves and we don't know how to ask for help and we don't know how to-- We're being denied resources or jobs and so we commit crimes. And you know, sometimes I remember getting paychecks, you know, I was doing construction for a while and I look at my paycheck and, you know, I just had my first daughter was born. I was like, this isn't enough money to pay for rent and food and all this stuff. So I'd go out and I'd sell little drugs and do a little this and all of a sudden I had a little extra money. Not like I was selling to try to get rich. I was selling to try to keep the lights on or try to, I want to provide. One of my daughters wanted, oh, this little bike is cool, my paycheck ain't enough, but you know, I could sell a little bit of this and then go get that bike. You know what I mean? It makes me feel-- I know it's not the right thing to do. I know now, but at the time it's like the joy of seeing my daughter have something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: The joy of seeing a family around Christmas and Christmas presents, knowing that it's gonna put a smile on their faces. You think I'm really caring about the feeling I had about selling drugs to get that money. Not, you know, and it's you know, could I do it now? Absolutely not. Right. ‘Cause I know there's harm being created, but yeah. Visintainer: That must have, that must be like a really difficult part of the journey going home and realizing, I guess is realizing that a home is not exactly the home that you're… it's not the same place that it was before you went to, I guess. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 36 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Or it is but you're not the same. Leyva: You're not the same. No, it's hard because it depends how we define home. Right? My home with my sisters and my mom, she unfortunately passed away four years ago. Home changed when she, when she died, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Home changed when I decided to stop being the identified patient, Right. Because in my home, everybody's worried about Martin. Everybody's worried about, he's in jail, he's on drugs, he's doing this, he's doing that. I was the identified patient. And when I stopped being the identified patient in my family, my family didn't know what to do with me, let alone my community. You know, my friends growing up, like all of a sudden he's different. He's-- you know there's a loss there, right? But also now looking at home, whether it's the family or the community, now that I can see home as a different thing, I can help create a better home for those around me. Right. Access to, oh, let me help you with your job resume so you can get a better job. Let me help you get into college. Whether it's a welding certification or a HVAC certification, a job that'll get you a better pay. Right. And you can have a record and still do this work. Like, understanding this is like now I can actually help mold a new home for people, including my home. ‘Cause my neighborhood in Santa Barbara is still my home. I live in San Marcos in a little neighborhood. That's considered my home too because it mirrors the same neighborhood I grew up in. Escondido, Ocean-- certain parts of Ocean[side], like these places around here. The struggle of my neighborhood is the struggle of these neighborhoods. They're not different. So I get to define and create what home is. Right. And I hope that makes sense. ‘Cause it to me it's like, I think that's an obligation I feel like I have. And I always tell formerly incarcerated folks that we have an obligation to create the change that we didn't have. Be the mentors we didn't have be the fathers, we didn't have be the uncles and the brothers and everything that we didn't have or the mothers or the sisters. You know what I mean? This is-- gender's important, but we get to define home now. Hopefully better. Right. It's a matter of whether the people around us want to accept it or not. <laughs> Yeah. You know what I mean? So. Visintainer: The, the last time that you went into prison, did you know when you were in prison last time that you weren't going back? Or was that something that you realized afterwards? Leyva: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 37 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 You wanna hear something pretty wild? I still don't know if I'm going back. Cause I'm not the individual that says I'm never going back to prison. Visintainer: Gotcha. Leyva: I'm not the individual who says I'm never gonna drink or use again. I just know that right now, today, I'm not gonna go back and I'm not gonna drink. I'm not gonna use tomorrow. I can't predict, I can't predict two days from now. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And so I live my life that way. Right. But I knew-- This is a whole conversation itself. I didn't know, I knew when I was in prison, I was like, you know, this is, I know what rules to follow. I know what rules to adhere to. I know what rules to, to press. Right. I knew how to discipline somebody if they crossed the rule or broke a rule. That was a, is a easy life for me. I think what was, I think what happened -- actually, I don't think -- I know what happened is I met a group of men this time in prison that I was listening to. These men who were like talking to me about feelings and emotions. They were talking to me about spirituality and the sweat lodge and praying. They were talking to me about critical pedagogy, like mass incarceration and the war on drugs and gang injunctions. And I was like, “What the hell are you talking about?” These are not words that I know. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Right. And then they would give me books to read and they would like I remember after again-- I remember asking if I can go to college and the prison counselor was like, no, because you have a write up. I don't even know why I was asking for college. I got a high school diploma. I was like, I just wanted to-- I knew other people were doing college on their bunks right. From their cells. And they denied me college right away. But I still got educated in there because I read Pedagogy of the Oppressed for the first time in prison. I read My Life Is a Sun Dance by Leonard Peltier. I read Fanon, Marx and Lennon and I read all these books in prison. I had no idea what they meant. But these men were trying to critically teach me in the belly of the beast, mass incarceration. We build these buildings, we create the labor force and all this stuff. And I was back then, knowing what I know now, right this second, back then I was like, “What the hell are you talking about?” But I was still reading it. I was still listening. I was still paying attention. And when I entered college for the first time, and I'm sitting there and in sociology, they're talking, well, mass incarceration, these laws and policies and all of a sudden I'm thinking about Mitch and Joe and Squeaks these men who already put these language in my head. And I was like, this is why I Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 38 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 gotta be critical. Right. And it all made sense. And I believe in the universe. It was the universe put that stuff in front of me. Even if it made no sense, it made sense later. Right. How did we even get here? <Laughter> But there, there is, right? I think this is super important because it's like we become, I knew I didn't know that I would never go back to prison. I still don't know. I didn't know that. I all I knew is that when I left prison, I didn't want to go back. How I was gonna do it? I don't know. But I also knew-- one advice my uncle gave me, who also I learned through observation about drug use and violence. My uncle told me a long time ago, I don’t even know, I mean thirty years ago, he told me, “When you get to prison,” ‘cause it was a matter of if it was a matter of when or, “When you get locked up, don't drink, don't use.” He always said, “Use that as a moment of clarity.” And so I took that to heart. So every time I've been incarcerated at any time, I've never drank or used in prison or jail. And I think this last time I spent years not drinking, not using, because it's easy in jail, in prison to use. And I think it just had this moment of clarity where I was like, “I don't want this.” And I had this guy, Mitch Bodner, who was one of my elders in prison. And he passed away this past year, last year. Early on in my sentence, he's like-- he's like, you remember pointing this finger at me and saying, “You don't belong here. There's something about you. You don't belong here.” And I got offended. I was like, “What do you mean? I mean I'm here. I got the same tattoo you got!” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, “I run with the same group you run, what do you mean I don't belong here?” And he mentored me from that day on. And he's just like, when you go home, you help the people. When you, you know, you gotta be there for your kids. You have to be a father. You have to, you know what I mean? He kept plugging me in with all this stuff. And for the beginning I was like, “You're full of shit old man.” Right. But he wasn't. He wasn’t. He knew what he was talking about. And I am friends with his son who's also formerly incarcerated. And as Mitch passed away, me and -- his name's Creighton Bodner -- I could see, I could see Mitch's wisdoms spewed out on him too. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I understand what Mitch was saying, like, people around you matter and they can, you take care of them and they'll take care of you. You take care of each other, you got an entire community of people who advocate for each other. And I learned that through some random dude I met in prison. So yeah. I didn't know I wanted to, I just knew, All I knew is I didn't wanna go back to prison. And so far I'm fifteen years successful. <laughs> Visintainer: Could we talk a little bit more about the mentors that you met? Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 39 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: So how did you meet them? Leyva: Well, Mitch and Rodeo Joe were part of the same subculture. I don't call 'em gangs anymore. Like, “Oh, you're part of a prison gang.” I was like, “I'm part of a prison subculture that kept me safe.” And they were both-- Rodeo Joe was an artist, is an artist. And Mitch was part of uh, he's kind of a revolutionary. And Mitch was really that one guy who was like the father-figure. Right. The guy who was like… mentored me around spirituality especially. And I always say, the sweat lodge and Native spirituality really is my practice today, it saved my life. Really. And he showed me songs and rituals and these things that, you know, I felt like got a father finally. Right? And Rodeo Joe was the, he's always reading and creating art. Reading and art. And he always-- he handed me books and said, “What do you think about this book?” And I… we'd have conversations about different books. He was like my, both of 'em were like my teacher. But Squeaks on the other hand, I talk about Squeaks quite a bit to folks cause Squeaks was an old Black man. And in prison you don't cross lines; drugs and cigarettes and even water. Right. Like, things you just don't do. And it's a funny story. And I've written this story before where it was easier for Joe and Mitch to be my mentors ‘cause they're part of my subculture. But for somebody like Squeaks who I always say, and I'm writing about this in my dissertation, where out of Squeaks, I've cultivated this idea of a cellblock intellectual. ‘Cause I remember sitting in my cell one day, the yard was open, We can exit our building, we can do everything. And I was reading The Four Agreements[: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom]. Ruiz, no not Ruiz, anyway, The Four Agreements, I don’t remember the author's name, um, Miguel Ruiz. I was reading The Four Agreements and I remember Squeaks came up to my cell just to the door and he said, he's like, “What are you reading?” And we kinda have a little exchange of eyeball exchange because, you know, he's Black and I'm Native and we just had to have this understanding. It was a really funny story. And I was like, Four Agreements. And he's like, “Oh, that's a good book. It's kind of a shitty read.” You know, <Visintainer laughs> like he started critically thinking like, “It's a crappy book, son! You know what I mean?” And he's the one who first handed me Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And he said, “You should read this book.” And what was it? Maybe he was, no, actually I think he handed me Leonard Peltier's book. And he's like, “Here, you should read this.” He starts telling me about the book. “Just to help you understand the place you're in.” I took the book and I said, “Cool, thanks.” Didn’t pay it no mind. And sure enough, as soon as I opened it, I started reading it, I didn't really understand it, but I knew because Leonard Peltier was also Native and in prison, I had a connection to Uncle Leonard, right? And like a week and a half, two weeks later, about a week and a half, I was walking Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 40 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 the yard and Squeak comes up to me, said, “What'd you think of that book?” And it was like, I knew that there was something there when I said, “That's pretty good.” And he started to started telling me about the book. Like he had it memorized. And from there he became my mentor. And nobody ever questioned the relationship between me and Squeaks and race because they knew it was about education. Wasn’t about drugs, it wasn't about food, it wasn't about anything illegal is about books. And nobody ever questioned the mentorship around literature in prison, everything else they would've. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. So there are certain ways for people in prison to interact across the racial lines then— Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Where that, where that dynamic is not present or not as present. Leyva: Definitely. Definitely. And I think that education is one and you know, you can talk to whoever you want to talk to, but we also know that, you know, Squeaks and I both knew and Squeaks was an old dude already. So he wasn't involved in politics even though he would definitely go head to head against the system. But the prison politics, he wasn't involved. But we also knew that if anything was ever happened amongst races, we would go against each other. We just knew that without a doubt. Right. What's interesting, and it makes it very important thing to note, is that even Miguel Ruiz's book, The Four Agreements, Pedagogy [of] the Oppressed,” even like the The Souls of Black [Folk], like all these books that I was reading in prison, they're all considered banned books. They're considered banned books out here. Right. And in the prison system, I can get-- Squeaks and Rodeo Joe, we can all get written up for having these books. And the more writeups we can get a sent to administrative segregation for literature. We can have our visitation privileges removed. Our commissary privileges removed, our job detail removed. Just for literature. And he always said, “Here, read this and don't get this book taken away from you.” And I never understood that, “Well, who's gonna take away this book?” Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I had to learn about banned books when I came out here and I realized that every single one of those books I read was on a list that the prison system had. That if you get caught-- Pedagogy of the Oppressed had like a paper bag cover on it Didn't even say Pedagogy of the Oppressed on the outside. I remember this didn't happen to me, but I remember like books that would say, you know, Holy Bible on the outside, but on the inside it's like a whole other book. Right? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 41 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Yeah. Yeah. Leyva: And they strategically hid literature inside other literature. Danielle Steele and these fucking novels, these love novels that people would always read. A lot of times it was just the covers but the books on the inside were different. Of course people were reading like love books and stuff, but I can never get into that prison book <laughs>. But I understood banned books when I came out here and I began to read about banned books and I began to understand like I can, you know, I don't understand why it's just literature. But, you know, the Attica uprising and racial groups banding together is dangerous for the system. Right. They don't want us to band together. ‘Cause it would become, I always say it become like a union force. Right. And they don't want that. So they make it difficult and, and make it difficult for us to have these books. They make it punishable to have these books. Squeaks and Joe and Mitch and others knew that this was a thing. I didn't at the time, I just read the books and had conversations. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But that was my mentors and that, you know, I wholeheartedly to this day hold them in high regard. And I remember it was Mitch who said… he always said this whole thing and people said this old cliche too. He's like, “Make sure you burn your idols. Anybody you idolize be better than them. Never-- anybody comes in your life that is teaching you something. Make sure you learn it better than they have it.” And that's the goal too, when I mentor somebody, it's like, “Oh, Martin, I want to be just like you.” I'm like, “Why you wanna be like me? Be better. Go higher, go farther, help more people.” Do you know what I mean? It's like you always gotta, and that's what Squeaks and Mitch and Joe taught me. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And their mentorship was, is, is, and from my understanding, well one: I know Squeaks and Mitch have passed on and I think Joe is still alive. I'd love to get an interview with Joe. But yeah, that's the goal is just, you know, take their mentorship, their guidance, their love and amplify it. Visintainer: Yeah. That’s a good goal. Leyva: And that's what I feel like I'm doing. I think I'm paying them a lot of respect by doing the work I do right now. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 42 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Thank you. Thank you for talking with me a little bit about your background and how you kind of came to where you're at now. I was curious… let's see. What led you to North San Diego County? Leyva: Graduate school. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Graduate school. Which I never thought I'd do. Right. I’m the first male in my family to go to college, let alone get an associate's degree or bachelor's degree? I got my bachelor's degree in Santa Barbara at Antioch University. Cost too much money. But Dr. Chris Bickel, who teaches here was teaching at San Luis Obispo at the time, encouraged me to go to graduate school. And it just so happened he just started teaching out here too. The same year. I came out as the same year. I think it was here about a year and a half before I came out here. But North County, San Diego was home because of graduate school and because it's a critical-- Cal State San Marcos was a very critical department of sociology, you know, they teach justice studies rather than criminology. Justice studies for me I knew for a fact when I got my bachelor's degree in psychology, I was like, “I wanna be a MFT or social worker.” And then I was like, what brought me here was the idea that they were gonna pick apart rational choice here. Cause I always heard rational choice, like, people choose to drink, people choose to commit crime, people do this. And I was like, Dr. Bickel, Dr. [Xuan] Santos were like, there's systems that make-- that create this playing field that's not fair, just. There's, people don't just choose to wake up like, I'm gonna commit a crime. No. It's like your access to jobs, your access to money, your access to all these things is denied. So then we commit crimes. Right. I remember, and I did this -- really quickly -- I did this in my neighborhood: I did a little experiment in my neighborhood in Santa Barbara. I stood on the corner for like four hours, four or five hours. Hung out on the corner. In about every seven minutes there was a cop that drove by. And then I counted the liquor stores in my neighborhood. Nine block radius, eleven liquor stores. And I remember hearing a judge once tell me when I got in trouble for alcohol. They're like, you know, “You’re nothing but an alcoholic.” You're, you know I don't know what the judge said, but I was like, okay, you're blaming me for my alcoholism. Who's blaming you for allowing so many liquor store in my neighborhood? “Oh, you're always continuing to getting pulled over by the police. You must be trouble.” I said, “Why is there then a cop driving through my neighborhood every seven minutes?” Cause they're looking for something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So you want-- I want to be accountable for the things I do, yes. But this school brought me out here. I came out here to this school because they're gonna help me hold the system accountable for the things they're doing too. The long, long que-- a long answer to that, why I'm out here, right. <laughter> Sorry. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 43 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 No, it's all good. And it's a um, I think it's a really good segue into some questions I wanted to ask. So do you believe in prison-- excuse me, prison abolition? Leyva: That's a loaded question for me because I do, I believe that we have, there's a better way. I think there's really good alternatives to incarceration. And the only reason I am not one-hundred percent sold on abolition work is because we live in a society that has not dismantled patriarchy. And so, even like Feminist Thought Theory says we should shut down the prison system, or feminist abolition work, I love it. It's beautiful work. But if we don't teach men and women to dismantle patriarchy, how are we going to open up the doors to prison for men and for women? Cause they feed into it as well. Gender, like, I would say gender’s super important. We can't open up a prison or, or dismantle the prison system where people haven't dismantled sexism, racism, classism, heterosexism. Right. These integral parts of patriarchy. Are we ready for that? I think that unfortunately I do, I've met people in prison who I've like, I hope I don't know, I hope you don't get out now, but I think everybody can be rehabilitated. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I don't think we have a prison system that's doing a-- not even a halfway decent job. I wish we didn't have prison systems. I wish we had alternatives to incarceration because people do commit crimes and people commit heinous crimes. And I think that we have to be careful saying we want to abolish a prison system. I don't think we need a prison system at the magnitude that it is. You know, I don't think that there's 2.3 million people in the United States that are bad and dangerous people. I think that there's a small, maybe even less than five percent of that number that maybe should be in a facility of some sort, some rehabilitative community, some therapeutic community -- we don't have to call it a prison -- who need real help. Right. But I don't think we can abolish a prison system unless we dismantle patriarchy first. I don't think we can do it. And I've been there, I've lived inside the prison system. I've lived inside the jails, I lived inside the violence enough to know that if we abolish this system, especially coming from feminist theory, we're not ready for. Right. <shrugs> It's also a goal though. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: How do we begin to do the work on patriarchy to set people up so they can have a successful reentry. Right. So I'm not one-hundred percent sold on abolition, even though I do push a lot of abolitionist thought. You know, I mean, we have better, we can have better systems knowing what we know now. But I think we need to really focus on dismantling patriarchy before we open up the doors. Visintainer: Yeah. I think, you know, generally speaking, people have a hard time envisioning a world without a prison system, without police, you know, things like that. Without-- and I guess maybe the question that Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 44 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 I want to ask in light of your answer to your last question is without patriarchy as well, people have trouble envisioning a world without that. Even if it's all around us and we don't even necessarily see it all the time, right. So what does a society without patriarchy look like? Leyva: I think it looks like-- I do often think about this. I think a, a society without patriarchy looks a little bit more empathetic and caring, a little bit more understanding, a little bit more -- very much actually -community-based approaches to everyday things that happen. Arguments and fights and misunderstandings, miscommunications. Right. That if we… I think patriarchy, there's a response to it. Right. Anger, yelling or violence or these gender roles, right. These gender roles of what women are supposed to do, what men are supposed to do. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans folks, all these folks, like all these people that live within our society. Elderly, young people, disabled, able-bodied, like the intersections of all those things, race, class, gender, ethnicity. That we need a world without patriarchy is an understanding that everybody here should be on the equal level playing field. And when something or somebody commits something against a group, right. This is the importance of restorative justice. This is the importance of conflict resolution, of alternative to violence, like all these great fields. I think that if we started teaching this stuff in literally preschool or pre-k[indergarten], first grade, second grade, third grade, all the way up has a curriculum that's based around feelings and emotions and understanding. I think we'll get to a generation someday who's less violent. Less violent, more empathetic, more caring, more… sees the world completely different. Right. Maybe this is a big hope and dream of mine. Right. Maybe this is something that's maybe never gonna happen. But I always look at it as, you know, it's always worth the shot because what we have right now ain't working for shit, <laughs> you know what I mean? It's not working. And, you know, we gotta understand all the intersections of single parents or, or children growing up without parents or the foster care system or, you know, the world we live in with you know, sexual exploitation of young people and like a world that’s a really harsh place. Right. But if we don't start teaching this stuff at a young age of how to really see each other, care about each other, you know, but I think that uh, but I do think, I think we can grow up in a world where there's less patriarchy or more defined like, you know, I'm not saying that being masculine or being-- there's something wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just our response to things doesn't have to be so like, harsh, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We can have disagreements and a conversation after. We can have a disagreement and space apart from each other, then come back and talk about it. Like, we can still have our feelings and emotions, but we teach people how to dismantle their reaction. I think little by little a world without patriarchy is more caring, you know? And it doesn't have to be loving. Nobody has to love each other. Right. But we have to care about each other. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 45 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Leyva: We're in it together. Covid taught us that. <laughs> We're in it together. Right. So yeah. Visintainer: What's your future plans for Project Rebound? Or where would you like to see it head? Leyva: I think my future plan is the same future plan as a lot of the coordinators and directors across the state. But just to see it in every CSU. To see every incarcerated person have the access to associates degrees when they come home, they can, if they want, can come to a CSU and be successful and grow as an individual. I also would love to see Project Rebound here and other places. Cause we, every time we do somebody does something at their Project Rebound, we share the information. Right. I'd like to see it become a hub for not just students, but community members come get their records expunged, come and find jobs or resources, come get food. And what we say in the office is come in and shoot the shit. Let’s come in and talk. Some people gotta get stuff off their chest and it's a hub where we just see each other and care about each other. Right. And right now, that's what we kind of have down there. We're just kind of building on it. It's a very small community. We want more community members that are students, but we want a bigger community of people around the university to say like, Project Rebound is supporting and helping us and that we're getting the help we need. Right. I think I see the, the work in the future for Project Rebound that it's just a place to come in and grow. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Student or not, you know what I mean? And you know, and we get, I get this idea from students who are not formally incarcerated, but are system impacted. When a student comes into my office, or, and I'm not gonna say my office comes into the office and they say, “Oh, my dad's incarcerated and I don't know what to do.” And we're sitting there, me or Lawrence or one of our formerly incarcerated students to sit there to talk to the student about what they're feeling, what they're going through. I see that as a community space to heal. Right. So that's where I see the future. It's just a place to grow and heal and be seen and cared for. Visintainer: Yeah. As you know, I spend some time working around the corner from you there and from my perspective you have a community there. I see a lot of engagement. I see a lot of students talking with you and it's pretty cool. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. It is really nice. Especially post-- pre-Covid. I mean, I was trying to, I was trying to sit there in little desks and do work and there'd be like ten people in that small space and I'm like, I gotta put some earphones on or something cause <laughs> yeah. I'm trying to get work done here. Right. It is, there is a community built there and it's nice to see it come back pretty quickly now that we're back on campus and yeah, I'm grateful for that space. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 46 2023-05-03 �Martin Leyva Transcript, Interview 2022-10-27 Visintainer: Yeah. Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't? Leyva: No. No. I think I really have appreciated this interview, this conversation. I wouldn’t even call it an interview. It's a, it's a conversation because I think-- I know I'm super grateful for this opportunity to be in this academic space and this community around people that I love being around. And I mean, as a formerly incarcerated person, again, feel obligated to continue helping people because in a way I'm really helping myself. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, sometimes I feel like I'm overpaid. Like I can go home even though I take a lot of the stress home with me or the emotional labor home with me. But I also know that every day I'm putting my best foot forward and I'm doing the work. And that pays homage to Joe and Mitch and Squeaks and others. ‘Cause I still remember the day I walked out of prison, the faces I left behind. Yeah. And this is my obligation to those men there. Not just the men, but all incarcerated people across this globe because incarceration is a global issue. You know, we just have the biggest one in the United States, but it is a global issue. Right. So, but I think question wise, or I think I'm good. Visintainer: All right. Well, I really appreciate your time and the conversation, so thank you very much. Leyva: You're welcome. Thank you. Visintainer: All right. I'm gonna go ahead and turn off the interview. Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins and Sean Visintainer 47 2023-05-03 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Leyva, Martin. Interview transcript, October 10, 2022 Description An account of the resource Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community. Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Martin Leyva Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos -- Project Rebound Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Palomar College -- Transitions Program Parolees Prison-industrial complex Santa Barbara City College -- Transitions Program Transitions (Program) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Spanish Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you have questions regarding usage of this oral history. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Martin Leyva License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-19 CSUSM history Latine experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Martin Leyva OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Leyva, Martin. Interview October 27, 2022 SC027-19 02:24:21 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection Campus oral histories CSUSM csusm Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment Parolees Prison-industrial complex San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) Transitions (Program) California State University San Marcos. Project Rebound MiraCosta College. Transitions Program Palomar College. Transitions Program Martin Leyva Sean Visintainer mp4 LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.mp4 1.0:|16(8)|33(11)|51(12)|62(7)|79(8)|91(15)|111(5)|126(4)|145(12)|155(12)|178(8)|192(7)|205(5)|218(8)|235(15)|251(15)|270(10)|282(11)|295(4)|311(3)|321(3)|341(3)|350(13)|363(6)|379(14)|391(4)|402(11)|414(3)|425(9)|443(8)|461(12)|479(13)|491(3)|507(8)|525(8)|539(6)|551(17)|572(13)|585(11)|600(6)|614(11)|628(18)|647(5)|673(10)|707(13)|728(4)|749(10)|770(5)|800(9)|813(10)|822(10)|849(8)|862(12)|875(12)|907(17)|916(12)|941(13)|954(7)|972(5)|988(9)|1013(15)|1034(12)|1055(4)|1068(6)|1098(4)|1113(9)|1147(4)|1179(8)|1198(7)|1225(3)|1243(4)|1262(14)|1293(17)|1310(7)|1329(11)|1347(16)|1364(8)|1406(2)|1460(5)|1478(4)|1494(4)|1519(16)|1538(18)|1557(9)|1589(7)|1603(4)|1626(8)|1642(12)|1664(9)|1693(10)|1720(13)|1739(4)|1750(3)|1777(3)|1789(3)|1809(4)|1842(11)|1866(20)|1900(16)|1918(19)|1928(12)|1947(7)|1967(4)|1986(7)|1998(13)|2023(17)|2041(15)|2062(12)|2076(7)|2097(3)|2119(16)|2147(9)|2158(9)|2173(6)|2204(3)|2225(4)|2238(4)|2251(17)|2273(5)|2305(2)|2317(9)|2328(10)|2347(9)|2360(5)|2386(10)|2406(15)|2425(5)|2444(16)|2472(12)|2494(9)|2506(17)|2530(4)|2543(12)|2563(4)|2582(7)|2600(10)|2611(3)|2622(6)|2641(6)|2666(10)|2678(10)|2700(4)|2721(9)|2732(3)|2747(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c5caf9a55a3ead1fafbf38f16091217c.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Introduction of Martin Leyva (narrator) and date and place of interview (October 27th, 2022 at California State University San Marcos University Library). 0 23 Roles at Cal State San Marcos, Palomar College, and MiraCosta College Leyva discusses his roles with Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, as well as with the Transitions Programs at Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges, and his role as a Professor of Sociology. Leyva also discusses the Rising Scholars community college program, and what support from university and system administrations, as well as the nonprofit sector looks like. California State University San Marcos ; MiraCosta College ; Palomar College ; professional development ; Project Rebound ; Rising Scholars ; Transitions Program 0 494 Typical day of work Leyva discusses what a day of work is like for him, including supporting students, and the emotional labor that comes with his work, how to build trust with formerly incarcerated students, and what success looks like in his role. academic instruction ; California State University San Marcos ; emotional labor ; MiraCosta College ; Palomar College ; scholarship ; student success ; trust-building 0 1453 Santa Barbara City College and the Transitions Program Leyva relates how he was released from prison and had trouble with employment. At the recommendation of his niece, Leyva attended college and began forming a community with other formerly incarcerated students, which led to an informal support group. Leyva relates how that support group became a cohort model for formerly incarcerated individuals Employment ; Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services Office ; Santa Barbara City College ; Transitions Program 0 1764 Employment realities after prison Leyva relates issues he encountered in gaining and retaining employment after release from prison, and the barriers that formerly incarcerated people face in re-entering the workforce. Leyva recounts finding work on campus at Santa Barbara City College and recent legislation that is intended to lessen barriers for formerly incarcerated folks. Employment barriers ; Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services ; Santa Barbara City College ; student success 0 2930 Enabling success for formerly incarcerated students Leyva discusses "just showing up" as a way to model success and assist students in acclimating to an academic environment. Leyva also discusses peers doing work in assisting formerly incarcerated students and/or affecting change, and the characteristics that make for successful re-entry for people getting out of prison. belonging ; Frankie Guzman ; imposter syndrome ; James Binnall ; student success 0 3571 Pathways for formerly incarcerated students in academia Leyva discusses what majors and programs tend to be popular with formerly incarcerated students, what areas Leyva thinks we need more formerly incarcerated people involved in, and what professions they cannot be involved in for legal reasons. college majors ; Education ; employment barriers ; Human Services ; Justice Studies ; Nursing ; Political Science ; Social Work ; Sociology and Criminology ; STEM fields ; student success 0 3898 Employment in prison Leyva discusses the process of employment in prison ; how incarcerated individuals find employment, what that employment looks like, and what the pay is like for incarcerated people. Leyva also discusses what the prison-industrial complex and onshoring movement means for exploitation of labor in prisons. Leyva describes his experience working as a landscaper while in prison. labor exploitation ; landscaping ; legislation ; prison employment ; prison-industrial complex ; Thirteenth Ammendment ; UNICOR 0 4374 Media narratives Leyva discusses how media narratives and election cycles drive public policy and public perceptions of crime and impact non-violent offenders. Leyva also discusses the importance of being critical of our government, the systems in place, and our corporations. carceral system ; corporate criticism ; governmental criticism ; media narratives 0 4707 Childhood in Santa Barbara Leyva discusses his childhood in Santa Barbara and his hometown neighborhood, what his community looked like when he was growing up ; his family, his gathering places, corner stores, Ortega Park murals, barbecue, and childhood rolemodels. Leyva also discusses what his mother did for a living, and his family's work ethic. Manuel Unzueta ; murals ; Oak Park ; Ortega Park ; role models ; Santa Barbara ; work ethic 0 5339 First legal troubles, observational learning, and patriarchy Leyva discusses stealing mopeds and getting caught, observational learning, and substance abuse. Leyva also discusses modeling emotional intelligence and emotional management, sobriety, mindfulness, and the importance of dismantling patriarchy. Leyva tells the story of how he got caught with the stolen mopeds. Honda Spree ; moped theft ; observational learning ; patriarchy 0 5921 Further legal troubles and post-incarceration life Leyva describes his continuing legal troubles and trajectory into the carceral system, crime as a call for help, and how patriarchy doesn't teach skills to be emotionally vulnerable and to be supportive. Leyva also recalls severing a relationship upon coming back to his community, and what defying this meant. Leyva relates this experience to the struggles incarcerated people face in doing the work to heal. Leyva also discusses what home is to him, and how it changes during the healing process post-incarceration. healing ; Juvenile Detention ; patriarchy ; post-incarceration ; robbery ; substance abuse 0 6839 Recidivism, books and education in prison, and mentors in prison Leyva discusses how he won't say he will never be back in prison. He also recalls education in prison, and prison mentors that guided his reading and helped him start the healing process. Leyva also discusses prison subcultures and what literature is dangerous to have in prison. banned books ; critical pedogogy ; mentorship ; My Life Is a Sun Dance ; Pedagogy of the Oppressed ; prison subculture ; recidivism ; The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom 0 7746 Graduate school Leyva discusses coming to North San Diego County for graduate school at California State University San Marcos and the justice studies program in the Sociology Department. Leyva also discusses how our systems and environment drive the choices we make. Antioch University ; California State University San Marcos ; Chris Bickel ; Justice Studies ; rational choice ; Xuan Santos 0 7926 Prison abolition Leyva discusses his feelings on prison abolition, dismantling patriarchy, and feminist thought theory. Leyva describes his wishes for alternatives to incarceration and what a world without patriarchy looks like. feminism ; patriarchy ; prison abolition 0 8369 Project Rebound in the future Leyva discusses how he'd like to see Project Rebound grow, how formerly incarcerated people could have opportunity through it, and how he would like to see CSUSM's Project Rebound become a community hub and place to grow, student or not. community ; Project Rebound 0 8556 Closing thoughts Leyva offers his closing thoughts on the conversation, what his work means to him, and paying homage to his mentors through his work. global incarceration ; paying it back 0 Oral History Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community.&#13 ; &#13 ; Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Martin Leyva as part of the California State University San Marcos Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Today is Thursday, October 27th, 2022, and the interview is taking place at the University Library at Cal State San Marcos. Martin, thank you so much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about the work that you do, and I was wondering if you can speak to your roles at Cal State as well as Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges. Martin Leyva: Yeah. so currently I'm the program coordinator for Project Rebound here at Cal State San Marcos. Project Rebound started three years ago as a program that supports formerly incarcerated students. I'm also a lecturer within the Sociology [department] Criminology and Justice Studies [program]. And my work primarily is around formerly incarcerated students. It includes Palomar College's Transitions Program that started in 2016, 2017? 2017, and I worked there, also a professor of sociology there, as well as the support person for Transitions students. And same thing at MiraCosta, [unclear] teaches sociology, lecture and sociology there, as well as work with their Transitions students, so formerly incarcerated students. And the cool thing is now they're Rising Scholars, which is the Chancellor's, California Chancellor's Office support for formerly incarcerated folks within the community college. So that's what I do. Visintainer: What does that support look like from the -- you said the Chancellor's Office? Leyva: Yeah, so well, there's two parts. One, Project Rebound also gets support from the Chancellor's office to have programs in the CSU, provides financial support for formerly incarcerated folks. And that's the same thing at the community college with Rising Scholars Network is financial support and professional development for formerly incarcerated students all supported by the Chancellor's office. And that's all new initiatives that just happened in the last couple years. Rising Scholars just happened this past year, funding to community colleges, which is a big help, a huge help. Visintainer: How did Rising Scholars come to be? Leyva: Rising-- I mean Rising Scholars came to be because they saw the need. They saw like a lot of community colleges starting to build up and amplify their services to incarcerated and formally incarcerated students. I love the work. I started doing this work back in 2007 when I came home from prison. Started community college and you know, it's just, I don't know. It wasn't -- there wasn't a lot of support back in 2007 for formerly incarcerated folks and building that program and other programs that got built around existing programs and what we were doing at Santa Barbara City College, last 15 years is just more and more community colleges throughout the state started doing this work. Project rebound, expanded from San Francisco State on to thirteen other campuses. The UC [University of California] system started creating Underground Scholars that supported you know, Underground Scholars first started in Berkeley, and it had started expanding to the UCs. And I think the state of California just saw like, there was a movement and momentum around laws and policies and procedures that supported -- they needed to support formerly incarcerated students, because a lot were coming home and a lot were going to college. And it's been nothing but positivity, you know, I mean, the more they realize, the more degrees we get, the less the likelihood of us going back to prison drops significantly. And they started to fund them. So, it's been so beautiful to watch. Visintainer: Yeah. For sure. What you mentioned the that there's financial support and professional development that's provided and what does that look like? Leyva: So, professional development-- someone like myself who's been to prison, who's got a record it's really hard, especially in areas like this state, right? To get a job with felonies on your record or having an extensive background. But a lot of these programs, they're actually encouraging for institutions to hire people with lived experience. And so it opens, the professional development opens up the doors to people like myself to be able to come work for -- you know, it's interesting because at one point, how much distrust, and I dunno what the word is, distrust. And just like I was property of the state for a long time. &lt ; Affirmative&gt ; [Be]cause property of the county from county probation to the state of California being in prison and on parole, you're property of the state, and then to suddenly go to work for the state, it's kind of an interesting trajectory. But the professional development is they're encouraging institutions to hire formerly incarcerated folks to lead the charge to work with formerly incarcerated students. And I think that, that, I could see myself in admin work now. I could see myself as, you know, someday becoming like a dean of a department or-- and that was something I never thought as a formerly incarcerated individual that I'd ever see myself at that level. And I think that that through Project Rebound, I'm able to see myself as, "Wow, I can actually do this." And that's the part of the professional development, because if I was to leave here, I'm building the skills it takes to continue this work in other academic institutions or nonprofits or, you know what I mean, other places. And I think that there's a lot of skills that's being built working for the university. So-- Visintainer: So it's skill building its opening doors with state government also, I assume with private organizations. Leyva: Yeah. I mean, again, the nonprofit sector. A lot of organizations that are taking on issues around incarceration, around formerly incarcerated, around reentry you know, there are big nonprofits too. And you know, this is the professional development that if I was to leave the university, which I don't foresee me leaving the university anytime soon. You know, I got skills to be able to apply for these jobs that I would've never had. Right? And I'd be taking leadership or taking mentorship from some of our leadership here. I'm really understanding what it is to maybe someday lead an organization, right? And yeah, so the nonprofit sector even, I don't know, I don't ever foresee, like me going back to the prison system to work. But if, you know, job came up and it was, you know, proactive in helping people get out of prison, finding resources, I would take a job back into the, you know well not back into, but go back to the prison system to work to make sure that incarcerated folks had an easier time transitioning from prison to society, right? And so, I think those skills are being developed here. There's a lot of sectors that I can see myself working in. Yeah. Visintainer: So you're a lecturer. You have you have a hand in three different colleges, programs with helping formally incarcerated individuals with their college experiences. So you're very busy. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: What does, what does like a typical day of work look like for you? Leyva: A typical day of work-- it depends on the semester, but it is, it's a typical day is, you know, get up, get ready for work, you take care of your household things, show up to university, check in, do your emails, support students, check in on students. Prepare for meetings, prepare agendas for meetings attend a lot of meetings. &lt ; Laugh&gt ; There's a lot of meetings in the university. And it's in, it's also preparing for class. And I don't prepare for class. You know, that's usually after hours or before work. And then, you know, different schedules, different colleges, different days. You know Monday, Wednesday for instance, I'm at MiraCosta teaching formerly incarcerated folks, sociology intro class. So, you know, the typical lecture here's the information, the grading, the mentoring of students. Tuesday, Thursday, I'm doing the same thing for Palomar College. And then quite honestly, I mean I stay busy, so I go home and I'm prepared a little food, hang out with the dog, and then all of a sudden you're--[be]cause I'm also in a doctoral program right now. So gotta do research, gotta write. It's a very &lt ; laugh&gt ; now that I say that out loud, it's super busy. But you know, I think that I also see the importance all of it, right? I see the opportunity that has been placed in front of me. And I know that there's a good benefit to it all right? I think it's also-- I stay busy as a formerly incarcerated individual. I know a lot of formerly incarcerated individuals are watching me and they see me and they could see them-- They could see their lives changing too. And I think that that's the super important part is that the mentoring that I've gotten, I got to give it away, right? And so that's a typical day is just, you know, Monday through Friday and on weekends, hopefully get a little downtime and hang out a little bit, if not, you know, I'm sitting there researching, writing, and grading and-- Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Wouldn't trade my life for anything. Cause I think I've seen the worst of worst and I don't wanna see that anymore. And I think I can do something about that if I continue to do what I do. So-- Visintainer: So you mentioned that you-- part of your day is supporting students and checking in with students. And I imagine, and I'm making a bit of an assumption here, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that there's a significant amount of emotional labor that goes into your work. What, I guess my question is what is the emotional labor that goes into assisting students with their transition to college life? Leyva: Yeah, there's a lot of emotional labor attached to it. [Be]cause it's not just formally incarcerated students here, when I teach here at the university, I'm teaching sociology to undergraduate students from all walks of life. And but when it comes to students in general, I think a lot of students still, especially at the community college, working with them, they struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. A lot of less, you know, they don't have the best self-esteem or self-value. A lot of 'em can't believe that they can actually make it. And you know, you want to support them as much as you can, you know, encourage them. Words of encouragement, sharing, you know, even the tutoring part, which is second nature to me: this is how you write a paper. This is what you should think about with research. Like, that's, that's like second nature to me now. But I also remember what it was like to be a student coming outta prison and going through education, which I'm still doing now. I've built so many skills and other skills I give away. But there's a lot of times where I think the emotional, real emotional labor comes is when students don't succeed. Right. We still have a lot of students that deal with the barriers, you know the getting a job, the family unification, addiction, alcoholism, even students that still deal with, you know, family trauma, neighborhood trauma, like gangs and stuff, right? And you, a lot of times I tell students, you, especially coming from that background, I tell students, you gotta be careful having one foot in your trauma and one foot in education, cause one of them's gonna win. And we try our best to have education heal that trauma, but a lot of times we see students go back to the old ways and that, you know, it's a little emotional taxing. I just shared in a discussion I had today that you can't change the person who's not ready to change, but what you can do is just plant the seeds that help them change, you know, and keep an open door. But there is, I find myself, this is actually a really good question cause I find myself at night when I lay down, my brain will tell me what to do next because I'll think about that student that still struggles and that's emotional. Like I carry that with me. And I think it's also a motivator to be like, "Okay, here's what I can do different. Here's who I can reach out to." This work is not just me. It is a huge community around. And there's a lot of emotional labor with that, you know, And again, just students that you know, I had mentors believe in me before I believed in myself. And there's still areas where I don't believe in myself where I still have people believing in me. And that's the thing, like I always tell students, Don't worry, you might not believe in yourself now, but I believe in you. You can do this. You might be looking through distorted eyes, but I could see the clear picture, you know, and it's a matter of them just trusting you. We also deal with the population that doesn't trust very well. You know what I mean? And so that can be emotionally taxing. It can be. And but again, we show up, we role model. And eventually the more you show up, the more they show up because they, you know, you're role modeling what you want them to do. And that's, that's super important. So. Visintainer: Is, is that the key to building trust or are there other things that you do to build that relationship? I assume there's like a feeling out stage that happens and then there's a trust that's built. I guess my question is how do you go about building trust with somebody? Leyva: I think that the students that gravitate towards me also recognize that there's a big similarity. Whether it's like, cause I, I'm very open with students, [I'm] a student in recovery, been clean and sober nineteen years. I'm a student whose, or an individual who has addressed a lot of healing within myself. And I think that when students know where I've come from and know where I'm at, they still see me for where I come from. So I'm an insider for a lot of them, right? And so there's already trust there. But again, it's also to like and I'll say it straight up, "You might not trust me now, but eventually you will." And it gets to that point where they're like, you know, you're reliable. You know, they're gonna call, they're gonna email. They don't really email. They'll call or text. And I answer and whatever they need, I say, Here, look, call this person. Go here, go that or come see me. I'll go, I'll meet you. Come to the office, or whatever. And students we rely on each other and they also know we're like-minded. You know I'll never tell a student to do something that I haven't done or not doing. I'll never ask a student to step outta their comfort zone without support. Right. And so they know that they're always gonna be supported and and cared for. They're always gonna be seen. And so, yeah, I think it, it takes a little bit to build trust, but it happens. It happens. And this is also, goes back to that question about professional development, is it's important to bring people into these institutions who actually have the lived experience of the people coming in. Visintainer: Hm-hmm. Leyva: Because we're here trying our best to succeed. And we're showing these folks that are just like us, just at a different level, that they too can be here. And they know that. It's like, there's like this insider trust, this insider knowledge, this insider acceptance that, you know I see them, they see me, and we have each other. We're gonna hold each other accountable. I will hold, I will hold students accountable. Right? And this isn't just formally incarcerated students, which is most of my workers around this has to do with students who are in the classroom here at Cal State San Marcos, who are also like Chicano or Chicana. They come from this marginal background. Maybe they're first generation, actually most of them are first generation. And then they see a professor. Cause I don't look like a typical professor, but they recognize my aesthetics, their language, my dress style. They recognize that as very similar to them. And so then you become those mentors for those students. Right. You know, when they come see you at the office, it's like, "Oh yeah, check out this resource, check out that resource." And nobody's really sharing with them that knowledge and introducing them to folks on campus that can help support their success. Right. Or their, their trajectory towards success. And the trust gets built and once it's built, it's there, right. And it's also always being there. And I, and I laugh because it's like, I've had students share with me, like, "Every time I call you answer." I'm like, "Trust me, that's my job. Because I believe in you." Right. And I want to be there for you. And cause a lot of times we deal with students who understand what disappointment and abandonment looks like. And if they come here and they get the same treatment, they're not really gonna be successful. Or, you know, the retention rates for them are gonna drop and we're not gonna hold onto them. And so I think it's important to have someone like me, someone like Dr. Xuan Santos, some of the other professors on this campus who mirror, you know, Rafael Hernandez. A lot of professors on this campus who come from the backgrounds of our students and students can see themselves in our places. And that's what we want. So it all starts with trust. We have to, they have to build trust first. And we just go from there, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Can you talk about a great success that you had at work with either a student or a policy change? I'm just interested, like, what does a really great day at work look like and feel like? Leyva: What's a really great day at work look like? Actually quite a few and, you know, I'll share one. So I had a student, it was my first year actually teaching here. It was I felt like I'd been teaching a really long time, but after I got my master's degree here, and I started, like the following semester, I had a class and a student in this class who was very quiet, very reserved. And he was just kind of like, came out, came up with me after class. He's like, "I've never seen a professor like you." And then he started to share about him, his upbringing and his family. And right away I gravitated towards like, what this student was sharing and how he can be successful. And it was a little mentor/mentee relationship built. And a great day here is when you get the email says, I decided to go to grad school. I want to apply for this program. Can you help me? And I'm like, yes! And we're, I'm writing a letter for him for grad school. And then he gets, he sends me another letter. I got into grad school. And just that last semester, spring, spring quarter last year, he graduated with a master's degree in social work. Visintainer: Awesome. Leyva: Got a student in my office right now who formally incarcerated. He spent twenty-nine years in prison, came out an older gentleman. I met him when he first came out and he started Palomar to be able to help him. He got two associates degrees, came here, got his bachelor's degree, and he just started his first year of graduate school, right. And it's, I have, there's, so I'm truly-- I feel blessed because I have like, so many little stories. And I say little because they're gonna continue to grow, because these individuals are also gonna guide the next generation of students coming in. That helps. I mean that's success to me. And then just being part of, like, when I first started Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College, to watch that program kind of grow into this big thing that policy changes, where finally, politicians are saying we need to fund programs and start programs and to see programs. Community college goes into schools-- community college goes into jails and prisons to teach associates degrees, and to me, success is like knowing that I played a small part in that. Right. And to be able to be an advocate and a voice for people ending life without the possibly of parole for minors who went to prison and playing a small part in that. Now you ask that question, I'm like, 'cause I never really think about it. I just do the work. Yeah. I just kinda show up and, and everything about, you know, like, what's, what's success to you? I'm like, you know, just show up to work. But to realize now when you say that, [unclear] had even just a small part of all these beautiful things. And as my mentor, Dr. Chris Bickel, he says, he's like, "Man, the work just began for you." Right. Yeah, I never really even think about it. Just kinda show up to do work. &lt ; laughs&gt ; And, yeah, I think that's every day too. You get students show up in the office and they get to share, like, "I got an A on this test, thank you!" And I'm like, "Don't thank me. I didn't do no-- I didn't do the study and I didn't do, I just gave you a couple encouraging words and you showed up, you took the test. It's not me, it's you, right?" And I think that you know, I get at least one piece of good news every day and that's a good thing. So, yeah. Never even thought about that, man. Thanks. Visintainer: &lt ; Laughs&gt ; Well, you're welcome. Thank you for sharing. Let's see. So, you started the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. Can you talk a little bit about how the Transitions Program there came to be? Leyva: Yeah, so I got released from prison in 2007. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew was I didn't wanna back to prison. Education was not really on my mind. Change was though, right? Just not going back to jail. Not going back to prison. Not using drugs, not using alcohol, not going back to the neighborhood. I knew that that was what I didn't want. But I lost-- because of my record, I lost three jobs in three months. And my niece just had this idea, "Why don't you go to school?" And I went to the, I went to Santa Barbara City College. I was scared. It was the first time I'd really ever felt like I was-- you know I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. I didn't feel like I belonged there. I didn't fit in [unclear] scared. My niece was the one who really practically held my hand in my first semester. And I always tell folks: that transition started out of an act of fear because I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. And every time I went to the parole office, I was telling another formerly incarcerated individual. Back then, we were still using the word convict, right. And I'd be like, "Hey, you should come up and check out school." Selfishly, I wanted him there. Right. And I also saw two individuals I'd always see at the parole office. I saw 'em on campus. And I did really quickly, I recognized I didn't have the ability to ask for help. I didn't have the ability to raise my hand. I read and I was engaged in here, but I wasn't vocal about what I was learning. And these two individuals were Black. They're Black men. And in prison we walk around really fine racial lines. Right. These unwritten rules around race. And so, I at the time I was kind of scared to approach them because of race, but I was still institutionalized. And then really quickly, I said, I want to be here and I know they want to be here. And so I approached them, Tyrone and Malik and I introduced myself to them. We just got to talking about school, classes. Then they also felt the exact same things I was feeling. And next thing you know, we started a little support group. Me, Malik, Tyrone, and then there was a woman that joined and another person that joined another person-- and then we just started this transitions support group that turned into the school EOPS Director at the time, Marsha Wright, I said, "Hey, we need a little spot to meet." And she's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna get you a room so you can continue the support group." And that happened so quickly. The summer right after that, we had our very first cohort model of education for formerly incarcerated individuals. And I think the first cohort we had like fourteen formerly incarcerated students. Second, we had like twenty-two, then we had twenty-five, and we had twenty-five every year after that up until Covid, because Covid shut down a lot of the programs. But, you know, the Transitions Program was born and you know, addressing access to college, recruiting resources, you know learning disabilities, like a lot of the departments got involved because they saw a big need. And there this was the small community of Santa Barbara. We have students coming from Ventura, from San Louis Obispo to do the program. And so I think that that sparked the conversation. You know, campuses should address that. It's been such a pleasure and honor to be a part of that. Cause when I moved out here in 2016 to come to school, Cal State San Marcos, that first year we took it to MiraCosta and MiraCosta ran with it for one year. Second year I was here. Palomar. We had approached Palomar. Palomar started their Transition Program, which still both, now both campuses have one. And they're doing such amazing work. Right. And yeah, like I said, you know, it sparked a good movement. It's an honor to be fifteen years removed. I would say I'm fifteen years removed from prison, but I'm fifteen years born in education. Right. And that feels good to be part of that work. Visintainer: Yeah. I have so many follow up questions from what you just said. I'm gonna try and frame 'em in kind of a logical order. Okay. So you, you mentioned that you tried three jobs after getting out of prison. And did you say you were let go from 'em? Yeah. what were the jobs? Leyva: My first job was doing construction. My neighbor, I paroled back to my sister's house and the neighbor was, you know, essentially a good guy. His name's Joe. He was doing construction at the time. He said, I can get you a job at this construction company. And I was excited to work. Two things happened with that job. One, it was a big commercial industrial construction company they built, wasn't like building houses. We were building huge buildings. They ran a background check and it took about, you know, twenty days to then to come back. And they came back and this says, it's a lot of liability here. You just got out of prison and so we can't get you the job. The other thing was my parole officer. I was in Santa Barbara County and literally the job site was about three miles outside Ventura County. So, because I left Santa Barbara County into Ventura County, he's like, "You can't have that job." I'm like, "It's a job though, right?" And so not only did the construction company not continue employing me because there was a lot of liability, parole officer said, "You can't leave the county." Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: So I lost that job. So then my sister introduced me to temporary work. Right. A temp agency. And I got a job with, great job with, Powell-Peralta working, making skateboards. I thought that was a great job-- Visintainer: Cool! Leyva: Loved the skate culture. Right. And it was really cool designs and was learning how to make boards and the temp agency, I was working there. I, you know and after thirty days of working there they said, "Oh, we want to hire you're a good worker. You show up, you do your job. And you're--" They really liked me. And, to go from temp agency to permanent employment, they ran a background check and they also said, "You know, you're just too fresh out. You just gotten out a couple months," or not even a month maybe a month and a week, month and two weeks or two months, whatever. So then they didn't hire me on. And then I went to go work for janitorial, same temp agency. I was doing janitorial, cleaning buildings at night, nobody in sight, just me and you know, cleaning supplies. And after the same thing, after thirty days, they said, "We really like your work. You're good. Let's hire you on." And then background check. And so it was, it deflated me pretty quick. Like, it was just exhausting. I just, I just wanted to do well. I wanted to do good and I wanted to make some money for my kids and get back on track, whatever that meant. And that's why when my niece introduced me to school, should I go to school and then I think when I attended, started Santa Barbara City College, my parole officer said, "Well, I'm glad you're in school, but that's not a job." Right. FAFSA's not money. And I was like, It's kind of money &lt ; laughs&gt ; , right? But he's like, "No, you need a job." And then fairly quickly, I remember talking to my EOP counselor, EOPS counselor and I said, "I need a job." And she's just like, "Oh, this this thing called federal work study. You should try to get a job on campus." And I was like, "What's that?" So I explored it. Next thing you know, I'm working for English as a Second Language Department and I was doing administrative assistant work. And I'm like, "How am I do--? I don't even know what I'm doing!" But they gave me an opportunity. City College said, you know, you don't have certain crimes, so we're just gonna hire you. And I was like &lt ; surprised gesture&gt ; "Hmm." You know, next thing I know I'm working in, and I've been working in education since. An interesting thing is, same thing that happened to me back in 2007, trying to get a job is the same thing happening to people now. And this is why, again, this work is so important. We address those issues. We hire students on campuses. So. Visintainer: And you said the construction company said that the insurance liability was too much. And so when formerly incarcerated individuals are coming back and they're getting jobs and they're going through these background checks, I assume that's just a huge barrier. And things like insurance liability come up. How do you address that with students that you're mentoring and how do folks get over that barrier? Leyva: Yeah. Well now, I mean, this is the other thing about doing this work for so long: policy change has happened. Now we have the Fair Chance Act where you give me a job application and it says, "Have you been convicted of a felony?" You don't actually-- you don't have to mark anything down anymore. This allows for your application, at least to maybe go through the second process of an interview. They cannot run a background check on you until they hire you. So I always tell students, "You know what?" 'Cause some students just don't know, some formerly incarcerated folks just don't know. They see that box and they just don't even-- why is that box still on the application? I don't know. It should be removed from all applications, especially in the state of California. But I tell them, "If you see that box, don't even mark it. Put in all your skills, send me your resume, let's hook up your resume." Even if somebody doesn't have any real work experience for, you know maybe there's a five-year gap because they've been in prison, there's still skills being built, whether you worked in laundry, worked in the kitchen, did landscaping, did some type of machine shop, there's skills that are being built and we can put that in your resume. And so working with students, and the hard part is working with formerly incarcerated folks, we don't come in contact with all formerly incarcerated folks. So there's still a large portion, a large population of formerly incarcerated individuals who don't get this mentorship. But the ones that do, you know, let's work on your communication. Let's work on interview skills, let's work on all this stuff so that when they're ready to go for that job, they have a little bit of a leg up. Right. And you know, the Fair Chance Act has really given a lot of formerly incarcerated folks the opportunity to get work. Now, is it a livable wage? Probably not, but it's something, right? It's a starting point. But it's still an uphill battle. Cause we have a student currently in Project Rebound right now who is just having a hard time trying to find a job with a decent wage and attend school full time. And thinking about, you know, doing something different like truck driving school until you can save some money. There's still a lot of barriers. And as much mentorship and guidance we can give, there's still certain jobs that say, "Yeah, we wanna hire 'em." And then as soon as they find that there is a criminal background, you know, just like pull the blanket out or pull the carpet out from underneath you and you feel like you're stage one again. Right. And so it's hard. That's the other-- that's the emotional labor that we were talking about earlier. It's like, you know, I feel like I've reached a place in my career where I feel okay, but it's hard to be here knowing that there's so many other folks that still don't feel that yet. And it's both emotionally taxing, but also I feel grateful too because it's like, I understand that I've been in those shoes before and it's like, just keep showing up for them and they'll be okay. And telling them, show for yourself. You know, show for yourself. So, Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. I have a question, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly. I'm gonna let it gestate as we continue talking. Cause I'm not entirely sure what I want to ask, if that makes sense. There's something there if that makes sense. Leyva: Yeah. It makes total sense to me. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Okay. So let's see. So let's circle back then to the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. And we've talked a little bit about how that came to be. That was-- it was really interesting. And I guess something that you mentioned there was a cohort that started and it was a smaller cohort, and then it grew as the years go on. And I was curious about how that communication starts. When before you have a program and you know that there are formerly incarcerated students on your campus, how do you get the word out about a program to help them? Leyva: It was really grassroots. So I'll start from the very-- like me and Tyrone, Malik, Christina, the number of folks in the very beginning, we would sit at this little bench on campus, right? And we would meet each other there in the morning. We'd talk about school, talk about tutoring, talk about resources. We'd support each other. But when you see a group of formerly incarcerated people or people that &lt ; airquote gesture&gt ; look formally incarcerated, the cops are also looking, right? You can see campus security, like, you know, what's this group of people doing here? Right? And I've been asked too, when the early days by campus security or can I help you? Are you a student here? I'm like, Yeah, I'm a student here. And they're like, "Can I see your ID?" And I'm like, at the time I'm like, I'm on parole. I'm like, "Yes, you can see my ID." Technically they had no right to do that right. I didn't know that. So I knew that there was like this surveillance aspect that was happening to us. And so that's why I approached the school, not to start a program, but to, "Hey, can you give us a safe place to meet?" Here's this group of people. We're all formerly incarcerated, We're all here. And it was like, yeah. So that's, that's that entry to the, to the dialogue as we're here and we need a safe place. And I said, you know, the campus security is always like looking at us or questioning one of us when we're coming into the college. And so the people that I was talking to were like, "Oh, that's not right. They shouldn't do that." Right. And they help us help ourselves by saying, If they ask you that, you don't have to answer any questions. You can actually call me or whatever. Right. They were really supportive. But then you realize when you start asking more and more formally incarcerated people to come to school, that something needs to happen. And the good thing is, is that the school, especially EOPS at that time at Santa Barbara City College, still to this day, their goal is to help marginal students their whole, And they saw the need really quickly, and they said, "You think you can get a program started?" And I was like, I actually know I can get a program started, but what is a program? Right? And they asked me like, "What do you think a program would look like?" I said, "We get a whole classroom for formerly incarcerated folks." I don't even know what you would teach, but we could all learn together and we can support each other and we can build I don't even know if I knew what the definition of cohort was before that. And then I was told, "You think you can get a cohort going?" And I just said, I didn't know what it was. I was like, "Sure. What is it?" You know what I mean? But, just-- they were really supportive. And then next thing you know, they're talking funding, they're talking, you know, "Oh, we'd like to hire you as a peer advisor to run this program and do this stuff." And I was, I was just like, "Yes." Because it was a job. It was being around the people that made me comfortable, which were four other formerly incarcerated folks. I felt good about what I was doing and I was also doing drug and alcohol treatment or going to school for drug and alcohol treatment at the time so everything we were talking about in class was fitting into this model that was being built. Right. And so I had my teachers, my professors in those classes actually telling me about group process and all this other stuff. It just felt like everything was organic at that moment. And that's how the conversation started. And that's you know, I think me and Malik and Tyrone, we just ran with it, you know, and it was yeah. And that's how the conversation happened. And that's also goes back to professional development because I feel like when they start talking about funding and, you know, writing up a budget and all this stuff, I was like, I have no idea what this means. And here I am just like watching these EOPS counselors and these program coordinators talk about this stuff, and I'm watching them do the work, and I'm like, "Oh, I want to learn this." It's not something-- not a skill I've ever had or been around. Again, I didn't know it would take me to this place, but I knew that there was some skills being built there. Right. And I think I answered your question. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. What is what is EOPS? Leyva: I always get this wrong. Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services. So it's like EOP here, and here it has a different definition, but it's pretty much like EOPS is the program that yeah-- So there's like single mothers, there's you know, marginal students that need extra support. Visintainer: Mmm-hmm Leyva: They're gonna provide the, the support, the resources, the mentorship, the guidance, the tutoring. We have tutoring labs in this department. And our own academic counselors in there too. We were just like, Here's your head plan. And IGETC [Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum ; course that California community college students can complete to satisfy general education requirements] and all that other stuff that goes along with, you know, students that are getting ready to transfer. And Transitions fell into the lap of Noel Gomez in the early, his name was Noel Gomez. And we pretty much formulated the program together. He was working at administration. We had the students do the work. We started collaborating. He still runs to this day. He runs the Transitions Program. And he is the EOPS director now too, or interim director, I think. Visintainer: Okay. Leyva: So he stayed in the same field doing the same work. And it's just it's cool to still have those ties, those connections and still watching him do such beautiful work and be a mentor to me, you know, So. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: So you mentioned that the college gave you a meeting space. And then-- and then you get your first kind of cohort together. What was the-- can you talk about the first meeting that you had? Leyva: With the school or with the students? Visintainer: With the students? Leyva: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. 'Cause that was interesting because they said, "You can start your own program, or you can start this program. Can you get students?" And I said, "Yes." The first meeting was really interesting because we had a small group of students who had already started community college who were helping. But I remember just like they're like, "Just make a flyer." And I had no idea I can make a really fancy flyer now. Back then I said I think I even said "Transitions Program." Program-- ex-convicts I think was written on the flyers. Very unethical or very, like, these are not the language we're using anymore. But I had the, the email and the phone number to call. I remember making-- so funny because I made a Word document and I put the information on the top and then a copy and paste and put it below and then printed 'em out and then cut 'em in half. Like this, this is like my ideal of making flyers, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I remember, like my first conversation with students or potential students is every time I was at the parole office, I'd show up like, "Hey man, you should try to go to school where, you know, we got this program going off in school." Most people were like, uninterested or like, no, I remember even seeing one guy, he's like, "Oh, yeah, I'll check it out." And then he crumbled it up and threw it away. Right. But I'd show up to the courthouse and I'd see folks walking out of the court and I'd be like, you know, "Hey, you should try coming to school, try going to school." I'd put flyers in the sober living homes, or I'd go to sober living homes and hand out flyers or and so it was, it was that conversation. It wasn't just me. It was me and Malik and Tyrone. And even in our neighborhoods where we'd know people who were our friends that are formerly incarcerated, it'd be like, "Hey, you should try home to school." And we already knew that they were kind of tired of the old lifestyle too so they were like, "Yeah, I'll try it out." And it just quickly-- that was the first meetings. That was the first conversations about going to school. And I also knew that when they did come up to school, that I would have to show 'em, this is where the-- this is how you feel like application. This is where you do your FAFSA [Free Application for Federal Aid]. This is, you know, this is a financial aid, academic counseling or academic advising or, everything my niece showed me, I showed them. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And everything I wanted to know, I was asking EOPS counselors and director, you know, "What do I do if a student asked about a job?" And they're like, "Oh, go to Human Resources. See what jobs are available on campus, make sure they have federal work study." So I learned it all pretty quickly. And that was the conversations with students. Cause I'm like, "Look, we can you get a job up here, you can do, you can get food up here." They were, you know, there's you know, there's-- I have a learning disability, so I was a part of the DSS, the Disabled Students Program. And I was like, "Look, if you got learning disabilities," and you know trying to break that stigma too right away. Right. So it's all about gathering resources. And every time I've met with a group of students, potential students, or individually, it was like all this information that I was giving 'em. Right. So it was quickly getting the buy in, but I also felt really good about what I was doing. Yeah. You know, and that it felt good to be like, "Yeah, okay, I'll do it. I'll sign up." And then you just meet 'em at the campus and you're filling out the application. Just at that time, it was just one finger typing too. Cause I didn't know how to type either, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I, you know, I just, it just felt good. And they did, there was a lot of, still to this day, people come into college and this community college, or even come to the university, there's that imposter syndrome. "I can't do it." And it's just like, "Yes you can. Yes you can." And you know, it's still, yeah. That was the first conversation. And it's-- and it feels like it still happens to this day. Right. Even though we got somewhat of a formula, we have great people, great resources. It feels like those first conversations happen all the time. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And which even though a lot of things have changed, the individual self hasn't. "I don't believe in myself, I can't do it." And it's like, "Yes, you can. Yes you can." It feels like 2007 and 2022, those conversations are still the same. Right. So Yeah. It's conversations happen on a regular, so. Visintainer: You've talked to a couple times about Imposter Syndrome and that's like, so rampant in academia. Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: And then you throw students that are maybe not familiar with an academic environment into the mix, and you add all these barriers, these like bureaucratic and logistical barriers, like university campuses are not necessarily easy places to navigate. Especially for folks that aren't familiar with them. So how did you go about addressing and facilitating students to be successful? Navigating the bureaucracy? Leyva: You just show up &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know what I mean? You just show up. You don't wanna show up or you feel you're gonna get push back or you feel like you don't belong. I mean, there's so many feelings even now. I mean, I still deal with that now and my role in administration and I love this campus because it's been very supportive of the programs, of me, of our students. It's a great community. Even Palomar, MiraCosta is very open. But you just show up. You just, you just show up. And I think for me, and I think also too, for a lot of our students, we know it's waiting for us if we don't show up, you know. We know what the other side of this looks like. The gangs, the drugs, the alcohol, the jails, the prisons. And that's not for all, all of us, right? There's not drugs and alcohol with everybody. But we understand what's on the other side. If we're not doing this, what else do we have? Right? And so we just show up and it feels good to actually do this work. And when that imposter syndrome or you know, that belief in self isn't there, or our value is low, self-esteem is low, we still just show up. You know, we show up. And I, you know, I think I've seen people show up and I'm like, "God, I have to do that." Cause I get in my own head. And I know that same thing when I show up, other people show up and it's like we're there. Right. You just show up and the bureaucracy is the bureaucracy, it's gonna be there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: When I'm getting pushback, not the funding or, "You can't do that program," or you can't, you know, it's like I always tell folks we've heard no so many times their life is here. No. Again, it's not gonna hurt us, but we're still gonna show up, you know? And I think that we've had a lot of doors closed our faces or a lot of denials for jobs or resources. And it happens with formerly incarcerated folks it happens and it's gonna, it's gonna happen even more, but we're still gonna show up. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And we're still gonna show that we can do the work. We're gonna do the work. And statistically thinking or talking that's like all incarcerated people in the United States, 95% of people are coming home someday. And that always is one of those driving things to say, like, coming home to what? Let's create something so that when they do come home, there's resources in the community. There's resources in academia, there's resources that're gonna help their mental health, their PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder], their you know, and we have to, we have to build those really soft landings for folks to come home and have a fighting chance to make it in society. You know? And I think that we live within a system that still, even though we see a lot of positivity and we're going in the right direction, there's still a lot of barriers. There's still a lot of doubt. There's still an industrial complex in the prison that relies on our labor, relies on our, the exploitation of who we are. There's still laws and policies and politicians that say, "Well, we can create these laws and policies to continue funneling people into the prison system." It still exists. And it's-- I mean, we still have the thirteenth Amendment &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know, we're still combating just the thirteenth amendment alone, let alone all these local laws and policies that just flood our jails and prisons. We just show up. We continue to do the work, and we continue to role model. We continue to, to, you know, I love watching people like you know, Frankie Guzman up in Oakland who's you know, a formerly incarcerated lawyer who's a policy lawyer, you know James Binnall from Long Beach, he's a professor, Dr. James Binnall, who-- he's a formerly incarcerated lawyer, he did his LSATs [Law School Admission Test] in prison, and now he's a professor and he does a lot of policy work. And it's like folks like that ; they're inspiring. You know what I mean? They're inspiring. It's like, you know, we-- again, they show up. I show up, they're motivation for me. And I can just rattle off a bunch of names of people who are formerly incarcerated who're serious allies for this population. And they want to, they want to do, they wanna do great work. Or they do great work. And it's just like that, that encourages me to continue doing the best work I can. Visintainer: Yeah. It sounds like tenacity then is a really big ingredient to success? Leyva: Yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some other characteristics or expand upon that if you want, but I was just curious, like, what are the characteristics that you feel are really important to build, uh, for folks to build when they're getting out of prison? Leyva: I always tell folks this: I say, "Greatest education that you have is your own lived experience." Right. That we use every time we've had a door shut in our face, every time we've been denied something, every time we've been at the lowest place in our life. Like those, that's the motivator to create change. That right there should be single-handedly the thing we use to create change. So you know, our strength is just who we are. You know, I've seen unfortunate-- some of the-- California Department of Corrections is a hard place to live. Yeah. You know, there's everything from drugs and alcohol and violence and assault and denial of medical, mental health services, medical services, it's hard. And it's like that right there though is probably one of the greatest teachers we have that builds our character up to be like, "I don't wanna take no for an answer. No, I'm here. I'm gonna do something else." Right. And I always tell folks, it gives us a reason to fight, a reason to &lt ; unintelligible&gt ; . And obviously not talking physically, but mentally, emotionally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Politics and, you know, getting involved with like, you know, they should build us up to this place where we feel empowered to create change. We already have it. We've already been to the lowest places that society can send us. Right. And I think that we can only go up from here if we stop colluding with the system that's there. Right. We have to stop colluding with it. Visintainer: Yeah. What, what do you mean by that? Colluding with the system? Leyva: You know, we bump up against it. You know, it's just same thing if you-- when an individual, and I see this happen, and it's disheartening when an individual loses a job or can't get a job and he or she knows that, you know, the informal economy exists, like selling drugs or, you know, hustling for what they need. I respect that. You gotta do what you have to do as a person, as a family person. But we get denied jobs, get denied access to certain resources, and then our only, we can resort back to some drug sales or some criminal activity. We're colluding with them. We're actually saying, "Well you know, you're gonna call me bad or create this level where I can't succeed. I'm gonna do what I have to do." And we go back to colluding with the system that send us to jail or prison. Stick with it. Stay within the long haul. We're always gonna get what we want. But, and the more we collude with the system, the more we actually allow the system to say, "This is why we need laws and policies. This is why crime rates are the way they are. This is--" And so it's like it's like we have to just really try our best to not collude with that system but change that system. And as insiders, we can change the prison system. We can change the laws around gang injunctions, mandatory minimums, three strikes laws, and all these things that are created through laws and policies. Why can't we become the politicians to change that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Formerly incarcerated people can be politicians. You know, we can actually be [on] school boards, city councils, county supervisors, all the way to the state level, all the way to the federal level. We can be politicians and instead of colluding with this criminality as they used the word, you know, let's just bump up against the system and change the system. Make it work for all people. So it's fair and just and equitable. And that's what we push. That's what I push, you know? And, you know, and I'm not alone. There's a lot of beautiful people doing great work out there. Men and women, gay, straight, able, disabled. There's a lot of formerly incarcerated people who are doing this work that, you know, we just, yeah. We just put our best foot forward and keep walking. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: I was curious if there was any particular like majors or disciplines that students that you mentor through either Transitions or Project Rebound here if they tend to gravitate towards any specific majors, disciplines in academia? Leyva: Yeah. The biggest one we see across the state, not just here at Cal State San Marcos, across the state, is usually sociology and criminology, right? Because we want to, we come from that. We know that so well and we do that. But also like human services, like counselors, drug and alcohol treatment counselors MSWs [Master's of Social Work], because we want to, we also wanna help, right? We're very empathetic. Some of the majors they don't gravitate to, which I'm actually excited about at Cal State San Marcos, it's usually like STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] fields. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: We do have four students here at Cal State San Marcos that are in STEM, which is probably the most, because we don't gravitate to it. We gravitate towards how can we create change. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So sociology, criminology, justice studies, MSW, counseling. Those are the main fields. You know, some psychology 'cause you do-- we're helpers. We want formerly incarcerated folks want to help out another individual. My goal is to get people into political science and other fields to be like, "Let's go to Washington." You know what I mean? Let's get in those halls. Yeah. And you can do that with sociology and stuff. But those are the main, those are the big disciplines or the big majors that people go into. And that was mine, bachelor's degree in psychology. My master's degree in sociology. And my doctorate will be in education. And that's all because I want to create, understand these systems so well that I could create the change within 'em, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And that's formerly incarcerated folks. I got a group of twenty-two formerly incarcerated students at MiraCosta right now. And all of 'em say same thing. I want to help people. So I wanna do sociology. I wanna become a counselor, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And I'm like, "Where's my politicians at though?" You know what I mean? Where's my &lt ; laughs&gt ; ? Where's my--'cause you know, there's also, they understand that, you know, some of 'em say they want to be nurses, but there's no access to nursing if you're formally incarcerated. There's a lot of fields that uh-- actually not a whole lot. Nursing is one. Education is another. 'Cause a lot of times if you're formally incarcerated, you can't go back in the high schools to teach, can't get your credentials if you're formerly incarcerated, which I think should change. I think we would make great teachers, especially of high school students. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there would be real value in, in having people who are formerly incarcerated in classrooms. Leyva: Yeah. And we see that too, because when I was in Santa Barbara, I was working in the high schools teaching social and emotional intelligence and social justice work through a non-profit. And the high schools over there saw my value. Out here, we could take Project Rebound students and other students we work in, you know, continuation high schools and court, juvenile court community schools, and those schools sees the value of formerly incarcerated students coming into their school, doing the mentorship, doing all that stuff. And there is a lot of value in it, you know, and not just, I mean, you know, we gravitate towards drug and alcohol treatment or counseling because we understand those folks really well. We also understand marginal high school students and middle school students, they say, "Let us in here" because we can actually really change the outcome for a lot of the students, especially our Black and Brown students that get targeted in other places other than the schools ; their communities, even their homes. We can actually-- I feel like we can really do a lot of work in that area, but until the policies around hiring formerly incarcerated folks to work in high schools, to work as teachers, to work as nurses, caretakers-- The other thing too is we're doing that work in prison. Nurses in prison exist, but some of the main caretakers-- people doing like CNA [Certified Nursing Assistant] work or LVN [Licensed Practical Nurse] work, they're inmates. They're, I don't really want to use the word inmates anymore. They're incarcerated folks doing that type of work. They're caretaking for elders, they're caretaking for people with terminal illness. They're doing dentistry work. They're being, you know, incarcerated folks are already doing that work. We, they allow us to do it there, but as soon as we step out of the prison, "Oh, you're not allowed to do that work anymore." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and it's like, we can benefit. We have a big benefit to society if you allow us to do that work. Right. Just like incarcerated firefighters, they're out here fighting some of the biggest fires. We can do it, we can do it while we're in prison, but we come out and we can't join a fire station. And the laws, that's the other thing too. That's another part of where laws have changed. Now formerly incarcerated firefighters can get a job doing forestry fighting now. And that's, you know our next step is let us in the firehouses in the cities, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So small policy changes, small changes are happening. Visintainer: And how does employment in prison happen? Leyva: Ah, that's a good question. You know, you go to prison and there's a couple ways. One if you're an incarcerated folk like I was, I had to serve eighty-five percent of my sentence. So a lot of resources for somebody already serving that much time. You kind of get put on the back burner. There's also a population of incarcerated folks that go and do, they have to do fifty percent of the time. So they get sentenced to ten years. They only do five. They have to earn that five years. So they put 'em to work right away. And then also if you're, if you're lucky enough to just be like, I got certain skills. 'Cause they do, they run your resume. "What kind of work have you done? What kind of skills do you have?" And they'll place you if there's jobs available, right? So it all really depends what skills you have, how much time you have. So there's a few defining things that get work. But you know, when you go to prison and you get a job, I was a landscaper in prison and it was a job I landed just because somebody was going home and they made a recommendation saying, "Hey Martin should do this job," right? So they hired me right away and it was-- The pay scale. I think the pay scale recently changed. So they're hiring certain people with certain jobs that actually is a decent wage. But I was making thirteen cents an hour in prison. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And because they had restitution, they were taking fifty-five percent of my thirteen cents to pay back restitution. And so at the end of a month, you get paid once a month. maybe able to buy maybe a jar coffee, &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. Jar of coffee, a couple soups and not a whole lot coming from there, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So and there's still a lot of prisons that are still paying their people cause they're still paying folks. Pennies, pennies on the dollar, you know. Visintainer: And is that based out of like some sort of private company using labor? Leyva: Um. Visintainer: Why is there, uh, why is there such a huge disparity between the wages that somebody's being paid when they're incarcerated and somebody that's not incarcerated doing the same work? Leyva: It's just the exploitation of labor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Depending on what you're doing inside prison, what prison, what industry is contracted with the prison because certain, you know, IBM and Levi jeans and, you know, no longer Victoria's Secret, but there's a lot of companies that contract with the prison industry for cheap labor. Right? So it just depends on those contracts. And that's the rise of mass incarceration though, right? You can actually have companies and corporations that on Wall Street, stock market, made in America. You know, you be careful. Chevron and Exxon, they all have a lot of products made in prison. There're so many companies that use prison labor cause it's cheap and they can say that their product is being made in the USA right? And it sucks. Even like the federal prison system for instance, they have a corporation called UNICOR [Federal Prison Industries] and they make all like military flak jackets and military gear. And yes, they're made in the USA but they're made by cheap labor, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And again, given that we're doing the labor in prison, we're getting the skills, much needed skills, but it doesn't equate to jobs as soon as we leave prison. And I think that's where, you know, I'm glad to be working while I'm in prison, keeping our minds busy staying active, which is good. But you know, you've got the private prison industry, it's, you know, you got an entire industry that's on Wall Street. People can actually put money in the stock market and just relies on the exploitation of people. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's kind of a gross system that we have &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I've seen the labor, you know, everything from making our license plates to maybe a lot of this furniture that's actually here was built in prison. Our shoes, our clothing items, everything that we have is actually built in prison. So it's like there's an entire industry that relies on our labor, you know? There's another thing: a lot of people don't really understand that, you know? They think that jobs went overseas. Yes. Jobs went over overseas for sure, but jobs also went into the prison system. Jobs that could have been for a lot of people. So we can't blame fully overseas. We blame our prison system and the allowance of written contracts to have this labor be done there. You know? And a lot of people are just, they don't-- They're just not well informed about what's really going on. Right. And so yeah. One, I'm glad that was working 'cause I would drive myself nuts if I wasn't. But it's also like, you know, you're completely exploiting, you know, my labor. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. When you were a landscaper, excuse me. So you were landscaping like outside of the prison? Leyva: No, it was on the inside. It was on the inside, Yeah. And, you know, it was sure around some of the offices, never was allowed off the grounds in the prison system. But the aesthetics of the prison was important for the face. Right. It has to look good on the outside. The inside was really quite run down, but the outside, the grass was cut nicely. The hedges were trimmed, the flowers were growing on the outside. And that's what you're doing. And trust me, I really enjoyed it 'cause I like being in the sun. I love gardening. I love plants. I love the work. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But, you know, yeah, it was-- I was happy to do the work. I wasn't, you know, especially then I was like, "Oh, I'm cool with this job. I like these thirteen cents an hour," because I was misinformed. I was uneducated. Soon as I came home, and I knew that there was like some exploitation happening, [unclear] understand it, you know, on the outside I'd be getting paid ten dollars an hour, fifteen dollars an hour, whatever I was doing on the outside. And in here it sucks to get thirteen cents an hour or whatever. But now that I'm in academe, I'm educated, I understand these, how the system allows for this to happen with the thirteenth amendment and all these laws and policies and how I really honestly feel like even in education, how I was targeted as a Brown male, it all makes sense to me when I see the rise of the prison system, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: At one point, crime rate, crime rates are kind of going up right now, but for the longest time, crime rates were dropping. Were on a steady decline, but our prison system kept growing. And it took education for me to really understand what is happening with laws and policy, what is happening with contracts in the prison system, what is happening with our politicians who are, you know, law and order issue. You know, "We need to get crime under control!" I'm like, crime rates are dropping though. Why is our prison population 2.3 million people in the United States if crime rates are dropping now, Covid and everything else. Yeah. Crime rates are, are rising, but they're not at a dangerous level. Right. Where our prison system stays at the same amount of people. You know, we can, I love research &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I love research, right? Visintainer: Yeah. And I don't know if this is necessarily a question, but then there's also, you know, I've been seeing like people talking about New York, the crime rates are not actually rising, but there's this narrative that the crime rates in the city are rising. So you have like Adams, the mayor, you know, running on this like tough on crime cop platform and getting elected. And so, I don't know, I don't know what my question is, but I think there's something there too with, with media narratives being-- Leyva: Oh, yeah. I mean that's huge for us. And it's also the time of the year too, right? With, with elections coming up, obviously gonna be this focus on crime and crime in America and all these things. And they're gonna, it's easy for politicians and media to be like, "Well, this crime happened in Chicago, this crime happened in New York, and they could be like all people, right?" It's like, no, that was an incident. Right? And it's gonna happen at this time of the year during elections, midterm elections presidential elections. It's gonna, you're gonna hear about how horrible we are, right? And as soon as the elections stop, you'll go, we'll go focus on something else, Right? Monkey Pox or something else, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's always gonna be something to focus on. But right now, crime rates are the thing because of this media. And that's the interesting thing is how we always, I always call this the sandwich effect, right? When you take media and they'll start the conversation with "murderers this, murderers that," and then they'll have like this middle part of like low-level crimes and criminals, and which is a huge bulk of the percentage of people in prison are crimes that are just like, you know, stealing or property crimes or something that's not dangerous, but it is a crime. So you start off with murderers and murderers and all these violent crimes, which is a very small percentage. And then you talk about this big section of people who are low level crimes and petty criminals, whatever they call 'em. It's a huge percentage of our prison system. And then you end with like rapists and child molesters, people who are misinformed through our media, they hear murderers and then something else, and then they'll end with like murders and rapists, and that's where they lump everybody up. But our major prison population is really people that are like systematically inundated with inequality, lack of access to jobs, lack of access to resources like medical, and they commit crimes that are like informal economies. They're like, you know, petty thief or selling drugs or, you know, something-- that's the bulk of our prison system. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But media more entrepreneurship says murderers, killers and violent crime, and then they end with murder or rapists and child molesters. And that's a very small percentage of our prison population. You know? And but when you, when you start with that and end with this? We're all bad people. Right. And it's not-- Yeah, I'm so critical about media &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: 'Cause they, they strategically figured out how to get the vote. You know? And I'm not talking about, I'm not voting for one. It's like, you know, liberal Democrats are one way and conservative Republicans are another. And I kind of feel like, no, there's a lot of in between that we're ignoring you know? There's a lot of great politicians or people who are just silenced by these two big conglomerates. Right. And they're supported by these big media corporations. And they're all-- I would say they're all in it together. Let's just be very critical about them. That's my job as a citizen, as an educator, is let's just be critical about our government, the systems that run our government, the corporations that run our government. Because if it isn't about the prison system, it's also about lack of education for people. It's also about lack of medical care. It's a lack of good livable wages. You know what I mean? There's so much more if we just remove the prison system, there's so much more to focus on. We just need to be critical about the entire system we're living in. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I think Covid taught me that because we breathe the same air, we should be talking about the same things. Right? &lt ; laughs&gt ; One person gets sick. We should all think about, we all can get sick too, right? And I think there's an illness with the prison system. It impacts us all. Your tax dollars, my tax dollars. I think there's forty-five percent of people in the United States who have a loved one in prison or who know somebody's been locked up. Some major portion of our population who know somebody's impacted by the prison system. We should all be focusing on it together. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. And we're the largest carcell-. Sorry, I didn't have trouble with this word. Leyva: Carceral. Visintainer: Carceral, Thank you. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; Laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Carceral country on earth, aren't we? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I always say it's a, you know, United States is five percent of the world's population, but twenty-five percent of the world's prison population. It's pretty wild. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and you think, like, you know, China and other countries are bigger than ours, but they, they have less prison system. Right. And it's again, we can get into the exploitation of labor. But-- Visintainer: Yeah. And I do want to talk about systems with you, but could we shift for a little bit and talk a little bit about kind of your journey to where you got and then I want to follow up with systems. I got some kind of more big picture questions for you. So I just wanted to ask, where did you grow up? Leyva: Born and raised in Santa Barbara [California]. I always have to name my neighborhood. The west side of Santa Barbara is my home. I love that place. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Don't want to ever want to move back, but I love that place. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. What do you love about it? Leyva: It's just a great little community. It's beautiful beaches, mountains family still there. A lot of history there. When I go back, just like cruising certain neighborhoods, certain streets. It's just a lot of-- it's just a beautiful place. Visintainer: Yeah. What did in your childhood, what did your community look like? Leyva: It's interesting you ask that question because growing up my community was just like, it's a beautiful community. A lot of good little restaurants, a lot of good neighbors, a lot of good food, a lot of good communities. But you don't know what you don't know, right? But it was a lot of poverty, a lot of crime, a lot of sadness, a lot of hardships. But you don't really see that when you're in the middle of it. Right. You don't really ever, you don't ever really critique it when you're like, this is my life. Right. So it was, there was a lot of that and a lot of-- there's a lot of beautiful community built around this ugly thing, you know what I mean? Like the crime and the police and, you know, the lack of schools. But if you don't know what it is, you just, and that's all you know, and you're accepted, right? Yeah. It is beautiful. My family, my mom, my two sisters, and, you know, cousins and community members-- its good people all around. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. What were some of the gathering places? Leyva: The gathering places in my community growing up? The home is always one. That's the best one. But, you know, our, you know, little parks. And for me, I like this question actually, the gathering places. I don't know why the-- places like Oak Park and Alameda Park, these places are ringing a bell, but also the corners. Right. thinking one in particular. San Andres and Micheltorena Street, like those were the gathering spots. Those are like--Bath and Ortega Street. You just see the little cornerstore friends and family gathered there, you know? Yeah. Starting trouble or laughing or yelling at each other or something. But yeah, those are-- I like that question. Visintainer: Yeah. What did Oak Park look like? Leyva: Was Oak Park and Ortega Park were the two main parks and I'm thinking Oak Park was just that a lot of oak trees, a lot of barbecue pits what they would call the kiddie pool. Right. The pool that's only like a foot deep and the playground. And on weekends there was the smell of barbecue and beer &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Visintainer: You know, and Ortega Park is still to this day, one of the most beautiful places there in Santa Barbara because there's same thing, the swimming pool, the playground, the basketball courts, the soccer field, and it's just a block wide. It's not even that big of a park. But there's murals, right? That's like kind of Santa Barbara's own Chicano Park. It's just one little area. Okay. But there's murals on the wall and there's growing up I didn't see the, the crime that was happening, the drug you started, I didn't see that stuff because that's just, you're in the mix, right? You're in the, that's just what happens there. Now I can see it differently through different spectacles, but yeah, it was just the same thing. The smell of barbecue and beer and laughing and music, you know what I mean? Visintainer: Did you have a favorite mural or do you have a favorite mural? Leyva: God, I wish I could show you the picture of it. Yes. There's like this Aztec warrior mural and it was just like this side view. A guy named Manuel Unzueta is the muralist and he's from Santa Barbara. He did a lot of the murals there. But yeah, it was like this Aztec god kind of person. And back then I wasn't really like really into the history yet as I am now, but I remember going back to Ortega Park after being educated after coming home from prison and be like this, like now there's like a connection, not only that's my childhood, but also like academically thinking like I understand the history of where we come from, right? Yeah. So but also I love bright colors and love like images, so yeah. That was, that was one that always stood out. Visintainer: You talked about barbecue a couple times. What kind of barbecue? What did folks like to barbecue? Leyva: Oh, you know, tri-tip and chicken! Santa Barbara, it was Santa Maria nearby. Santa Maria is the birthplace of tri-tip. And so this tri-tip and chicken and corn wrapped in foil, &lt ; laughs&gt ; put on the barbecue pit. And that was, that was the thing. Visintainer: That sounds good. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Who were your childhood role models? Leyva: Um. My childhood role models. Quote unquote the "bad guys." I didn't see 'em as bad guys, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's funny because uh, just had this conversation earlier today, but you know, family members, like my uncles, you know, they were the cool guys who dressed nice, who got the handshakes, who got the respect in the neighborhood. And again, growing up in that, you don't see or think about the negativity that's going on. But they were my role models because they were the ones who like would give me a hug and tell me they loved me or tell me they see me or buy me a coke or an ice cream. Right? And you look up to that, right? Not understanding that the money that they used to buy that stuff for people in the neighborhood, like little kids in the neighborhood also came from drug sales. You don't see that, or nor do you even think about that. You just know that these role models were like the men who were, you know, the men who actually recognized me and saw me. The women who would always be like, "Are you doing your homework?" And, you know, and the women weren't particularly like into a positive lifestyle either, but they would use terms like mijo or mi rey, right? "My little king." And they would always say, you know, go to school and do good. And the kid, the men would be like, "Don't get into trouble." You know what I mean? You know, but if you got in trouble, they'd be like, "Good job." You know what I mean? &lt ; laughter&gt ; So it's like one on one hand, don't get in trouble. Second hand like, alright, good job! You know what I mean? So yeah. They were, they were the ones that actually saw us for who we were. Right. And I love having that experience in life and now being able to see it from a different vantage point. Right. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: They were just doing the best they can with what they had. Right. And that they had a-- you know, my mom and my stepdad and my uncles and all the other men and women in the neighborhood giving me the best they can with their own unresolved trauma. Right. That they did the best they can and that their life was better than what they had when they were kids. And that my life was better than they had it. And that my generation after me, my kids have it better than what I had it. And that's the trajectory of life right, now that I'm able to see it from a vantage point. Absolutely. Love those role models. You know, even though now I'm like, "Ah, you were doing some shady stuff, but I love you for it." You know what I mean? So, Yeah. Visintainer: What did your stepdad and your mom do? Did they do for a living? Leyva: My mom main job was house cleaning, cleaning hotel rooms or cleaning houses or factory work. And my stepdad was a-- he worked in a nursery and a, he worked in a nursery taking care of plants and also a mechanic at the nursery. That was their main industry. You know, I was, I did the first gen talk today and that was interesting. I'm a first-generation college student. College, school wasn't that important to my family. Work was, you know, they valued work over education. You know and working hard too. I think I got my work ethic from my mom. My mom sometimes especially after my stepdad left, would work, guaranteed two jobs and sometimes if she could three jobs, which wasn't the best for my upbringing pertaining to like a mom I could come home to and do homework with. I never grew up with that. Right? So, you know, I left high school in ninth grade, so prior to going to prison and getting my high school diploma in prison, I was, had a ninth-grade education. And so that's what I felt like when I entered these spaces. I'm like, I've a ninth-grade education 'cause I don't remember my high school diploma. But, you know, thinking about my mom, I mean, that was, you know, she was, she's a hard worker. She was a hard worker. She retired early because she worked so hard. Right. Medically retired. But yeah, it was uh-- good work ethic I'll tell that. Show up to work and were just sick or not, show up &lt ; laughs&gt ; . I'm like-- When I'm sick. But she's like, "No, you gotta go to work." I'm like, all right. Going to work sick. But going. Visintainer: Yeah. We come back to tenacity then. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. Can you tell me about the first time that you got in legal trouble? Leyva: Yeah. About fifteen [years old]. I mean, kind of a funny story, but you know, I got in trouble for stealing mopeds. I remember going to court for it and like, "Why are you stealing mopeds?" Or, you know, they didn't ask the question. I just wanted to ride a moped. I didn't to sell it or try to make money. I was just like, I learned how to hot wire a moped. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And as soon as I did that, every time I saw a little Honda Spree, I pop the top, pop the front cover off and pull the wire and it'd just kick right over. And it was just fun. And you know, I got in trouble for having, I think like three Honda Sprees in my backyard, you know, and got popped and got in trouble and, you know, I'm, you know, committing crimes you know. Visintainer: And how did you learn how to hot wire a moped? Leyva: Once again, observational learning. Yeah. I think I think there's this like misunderstanding how people commit crimes and yeah. Certain people will teach you how to do certain things, but for a majority of people in prison, we just learned by observation. You know, I saw this older guy in my neighborhood and I don't even remember. He's like, "I gotta go!" And he went up to this Honda Spree, he did like the little move. And he just took a little knife out of his pocket and popped it and I saw him take the wires out and jumped on it and kick started it. And just hit the handlebars cause the handlebars had the little lock on it. The lock broke real easy. And he just took off. You know, I was like, "I'm gonna try that." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and then I saw a Honda Spree and I know stealing ain't nice. I know it's wrong, but at the time you're like, that was so cool. How did you do that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I saw a Honda Spree downtown one day and I think it took me a little longer &lt ; laughs&gt ; to get it going, but as soon as I got it going, there was a rush. Right. And again, I'm not saying it was okay cause it's not. But that rush felt good. Visintaienr: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I saw him, I'm like, "Ah, where'd you get that little, where'd you get that little Honda?" I'm like, "I took it." He's like, "Oh, let me take it." And he took it from me. Right. So it's like when you steal a bike in the neighborhood, it becomes a neighborhood bike. Everybody's using the same stolen bike. Right. And yeah. It's just a thing to do right? Through observations. Even like I talk about my addiction cause I was addicted to substances and alcohol. And I say it openly with students. I was addicted to heroin for a long time, and it wasn't like somebody taught me how to do it. It wasn't-- You weren't literally taught how to do it. You just see it happening. And when you see it happening, it just becomes, "I know how to do that," because you saw somebody else how to unfortunately use drugs, whether intravenously or not, you just learn it by watching. And I think that's how we learn how to say the things we say, dress how we dress, act like we act, respond, how we respond, whether you know, violence was never taught to me, but it's something I grew up watching. Right. I remember everything from like learning how to express sadness. I remember my stepdad would be like mad, like sad and then he would just like hit the door with his hand. And when you're a little kid and you're watching that or he'd say like, I'm so mad. And then he hit something. If I'm mad too, I gotta hit something. Right. And it's everything with committing crimes to expressing feelings and emotions. It's all observational. Visintainer: Yeah. So, is there an analog to the work you do now? Providing-- Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Providing, modeling for people that are learning? Leyva: Yeah. Emotional intelligence and emotional management. When we feel something, you know, it's me. I've been clean and sober nineteen years and when my mom died four years ago, because I trained my mind that when I feel a big emotion, my mind goes automatically to the reaction, which is the drug use the violence or whatever. Even though my mind thought about it, I've taught myself that there's no visceral reaction. My biological response doesn't have to, I don't have to do these things. I don't have to act out in these ways. And so when I work with individuals around emotional management and understanding that we have no control over our emotions, you're gonna feel something, you're gonna feel it! But how we respond to it, the emotional management part is how we should focus on. Mindfulness, meditation, taking a deep breath, taking a step back. I always say, "Pretend you're the outsider looking in." Take a step back and take a look at what is gonna hap-- what you know is gonna happen or what you feel is gonna happen and respond from that place rather than inside of it. And I'm also big on dismantling patriarchy 'cause I feel like patriarchy is the number one pusher of so many systemic issues of oppression. Even the war in Ukraine is patriarchy. Right. Like patriarchy is very dangerous. And as somebody who is raised in it and colluded with it, they've created it so well-- I want my kids to have a good understanding of who their father is. Not in that violent state, but in this healed or healing individual who can talk about feelings and emotions, who can allow myself to cry without feeling something I couldn't, I could wear a pink shirt and pink socks without somebody saying something to me because I'm very comfortable with who I am. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And I think that working with individuals that becomes my educational piece, is we have to really learn who we are and how we respond. Because how we respond sometimes takes us to the places we are, the jails and the prisons, our addictions, our own self harm, our own self destruction. I love these places, these places. And education has given me this understanding of who society constructs me to be versus who I want to be. And a lot of times we follow the construction because they make it glorious or cool or like, this is all I have. It's not all we have, we're meant to be other people. We're meant to be who we really are. Empathetically, empathetic, caring, understanding, loving, warm, you know. So yeah. I teach a lot of emotional intelligence to our students. 'Cause I think we need to be there for our families and our communities. And we can't do that if we're angry or mad or not-- being angry or mad is okay. But how we respond to it is different. Right. We shouldn't have to respond in negative ways, you know? And so far so good. I've been doing this work for a long time. I see a lot of change. So, you know. Visintainer: That is beautiful statement. Thank you. Um, I don't know, I think a lot about, you know, growing up in patriarchy and masculinity and how harmful, like, I didn't even know how harmful it was, you know? Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: And yeah, I don't know. I'm glad you're doing the work at dismantling it, I guess is all I have to say about it. Leyva: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. No, it's an uphill battle sometimes, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But I always say, you know what, in football they always say it's a ten-yard fight. Just go ten yards and start again. Go ten yards, start again. And but I feel it's an obligation too, it's an obligation. And I want to, if there's one way to shut down the prison system is really help people stop going. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know. That's the goal. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you had three mopeds in your backyard. So how did you, how did you get caught? Leyva: Just being reckless, right. Driving without, you know, back then you didn't need a helmet. But you know, driving through my neighborhood and just crossing stop signs and cops, you know, or like, I remember one time I was driving. And if you remember the Honda Sprees, they had like this little section where you put your little feet right? And I was driving and had one guy standing right in front of me. So I was leaning to the side to look where I was going. And then I had another friend of mine sitting behind me. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So, three people on a small Honda Spree, cop saw us and said, pull 'em over. Right. And as soon as I stopped, my two friends just took off. And I'm like, "Well, here I am." Right. And so obviously the cop could see the wires on hanging on the side and, you know, it's so funny to think back at the little things I used to do and be like, how did I think I can get away with this stuff? You know? And that's how you got caught. Just being reckless and I guess funny at the same time. But, you know, the, the consequence isn't something to laugh at, right. &lt ; Laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know. So-- Visintainer: Did you go to juvenile detention? Leyva: Went to juvenile detention. Juvenile court. Mom was always working. So my sister, remember my sister going to court with me, they were both older than me. Back then it really was a slap on the wrist, a little juvenile detention you know, a little probation check-in here and there. You know, the more I got in trouble... I dunno life moved really fast 'cause actually, you know, I'm eighteen and going in and out the county jail again for, you know, driving cars without licenses for DUIs [Driving Under the Influence], for stolen-- possession of stolen property. Not like, and not saying that DUIs is not a big deal, it's a huge deal But you know, nothing really big or major. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Levya: Right. No violence. And sure there was violence happening, it just never got caught doing it. Right? And I always tell folks like, I've been really lucky not to go away for the crimes that I have committed. Not to say I should have gotten away with it, but I did. And it's like, also it's another fuel that adds, it's more fuel to be like, "I need to do this work because I know that there's a lot of people doing things they wish they weren't doing and they're just not getting caught for it." It's like, let's give them another avenue to go down. You know? So but I think my life led to the point where, you know, I got in trouble for selling guns or having, you know, illegal guns and, you know, this stuff was again, all just part of a lifestyle that I was living that, we don't critique it. We're just in the middle of it. All the way to my last, my last prison term which was a robbery, you know, walked into a place and demanded some money, not even demanded it. Just say, "Hey, I need some money." I knew, I actually knew I would get caught on my last crime. I knew I would get caught. I didn't run, didn't try to pretend it wouldn't happen. Committed a robbery in 2004 and knew I would get in trouble. And I think it was my, I think it was my cry for help because I was so embedded within my addiction and-- no, I felt like I didn't have another way out. I didn't know how to ask for help. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And so when I think about my crimes as a juvenile, just the trajectory of how just, you know, petty crimes to maybe not so petty crimes, but gun sales to more violations of probation to led to, you know, a robbery that wasn't an armed property, I didn't have a knife or gun. But still it was a pretty significant robbery. I think that that time going to prison was my cry for help. You know, I just didn't want to do drugs and alcohol or live this life where I just felt really like in a sense like I wanted to die. Right. I talk to a lot of folks who were formerly incarcerated who say, you know, "I've reached that point where I didn't know what else to do. I'd rather go to prison than have to deal with the struggle out here, the suffering that happens out here." And I think our prison is full of individuals who feel like they had no other option. You know, because a lot of times when we grow up in this very patriarchal environment, especially for men to say, "I'm sad, I need help. I wanna change, but I don't know how," because that's a sign of weakness to say like, "I feel emotional." And for other men or even women to say, oh, they use these negative connotations. Like stop being-- you know, they relate it to words that are used for women and they just, we don't wanna feel that. So what do we do? Go out, commit a crime, go to prison. And I know I've had conversations with other men in prison and be like, "I just, I'd rather be here than out there." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I know men who've gone-- who are in prison and they, their date, their release date's coming up and they automatically like go after another inmate or they go after a guard and they commit another crime so they can stay longer. I never understood that when I was in prison and then I come home and I start doing this work and I'm like this place is harsh on us. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and there was even a time when I first left prison where I felt like [unclear] I can't get a job. I keep losing this job. You know, I'm sleeping on my sister's couch. You know, my daughter wants to hang out but I don't have money in my pocket. I was like, "Fuck I'd rather be back in prison than have to deal with this stuff." Right. And I, you know, that was me in 2007 and that's the individual I could talk to right now. Who just got out. It's like. It's easier to live in prison than it is there. You know, you got strict rules and boundaries. But we understand that life. And when I committed my crime in 2004 and I committed the robbery, that was a cry for help. And I'll never say that prison saved my life because it didn't. But it gave me an understanding. Finally I was ready to do the work. You know, something happened all of a sudden where I'm like, I get out and I'm gonna try my best to stay out and I'm gonna be humble. And, you know, if I turned away a lot of friends when I came home from prison because as soon as I got out my neighborhood was like, "Hey, you want to hang out? You wanna do some--Let's go partying!" For me to say no to the people that I've never said no to was the hardest thing. Right. And that was me facing patriarchy right on. I had a friend when I came home from prison, literally the day after, I hadn't heard from him the entire time I was a prison. He offered me a thousand dollars and an ounce of, of methamphetamines. Right. This was his way to show love his way. He wasn't trying to get me in trouble. He wasn't trying to set me up. But this is my understanding of this is how we take care of each other. And sure. As he's standing in front of me, he's offering me this. "You know, it's just to help you get back on your feet," is what he said to me. And for me to say no in that moment, I knew that I was defying an entire system that was set up for me. 'Cause he looked at me and he is like, "Okay, okay. Like, that's kind of weird." You don't, you don't say no to this in this neighborhood. You don't say no in this culture. You don't say-- you don't deny this offering. But I denied it. And when I denied it, I defied the system that I knew well. Visintainer: And did that, did that sever that relationship? Leyva: It did. I've not talked to the guy ever since. This is fifteen years ago. Visintainer: Do you mourn those relationships that are gone? Leyva: I think there's an emotional and mental and in a way a spiritual transition that needed to happen. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean these just like-- I took care of them. They took care of me. On the outside. They didn't care for me when I was in prison. That's usually what happens. But I knew that once I denied that, if I needed help, he was gonna deny me. Right. Or there needed to be a reckoning of that. And by not hearing from him anymore, I knew that okay, my life. Yeah. You defied this thing and I kind of felt like, okay, my circle all of a sudden got real small. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I just shared today in my talk today, that the more healing one does, the more healing I did, the more work I did on myself, the smaller and smaller my circle gets. Right. Some people just will not accept you anymore unless you're doing what they're doing. As long as they feel like you need them and they need you because misery is old--the saying misery loves company, right? They don't know a lot of people in my community, a lot of people in other areas, they don't know what to do with healed or healing people. Right. And my circle got real, my circle's small to this day, my circle is real small and I think now I prefer it that way. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I feel safer. I feel more included. I seem more like it's easier for me to ask for help. It's easier for me to, to give help. Right. Because a lot of times when you're in the mix of misery, you're carrying the burdens of that too. And I still, I carry a lot of burdens on me 'cause I got people coming home from prison every single day. People coming home from jail every single day. People relapsing and reaching out. I need help. I need a rehab, or I need a detox or I need something and, and to be of service rather than, you know, to be part of the solution rather than being a part of the problem. It's a, it is a heavy load to carry, but it's a lot lighter than carrying the load of my neighborhood when I denied that guy, my homeboy. I can't, I appreciate you, I love you and thank you for this offer, but I can't accept it. That all of a sudden put, you know, Martin-- the rumors started, Martin is oh, he must have snitched or he must have done this or he must have done that. Or you know, all of a sudden there's speculation about who I am versus they can't just accept the fact that I want to change my life. Right. But yeah, it's that's a struggle that a lot of incarcerated people are thinking about when they're coming home. And a lot of formerly incarcerated are faced with when they walk outside the door. And they wanna change. You know? And this is why programs like the in the community college or the university are so important because we give people that visibility and understanding that there's nothing wrong with you. And I don't even wanna say there's something wrong with my community because it's a culture that's there, right? But we don't have to partake in that culture anymore. That I can still be me. I can still be aesthetically who I am. I can still understand that. And I don't have to code switch if I don't want to. But again, I don't have to feed into that, you know? And so yeah. We went from my first crime to this &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But it's all, it's all really interconnected because I think that people are committing crimes because we don't know what else to do with ourselves and we don't know how to ask for help and we don't know how to-- We're being denied resources or jobs and so we commit crimes. And you know, sometimes I remember getting paychecks, you know, I was doing construction for a while and I look at my paycheck and, you know, I just had my first daughter was born. I was like, this isn't enough money to pay for rent and food and all this stuff. So I'd go out and I'd sell little drugs and do a little this and all of a sudden I had a little extra money. Not like I was selling to try to get rich. I was selling to try to keep the lights on or try to, I want to provide. One of my daughters wanted, oh, this little bike is cool, my paycheck ain't enough, but you know, I could sell a little bit of this and then go get that bike. You know what I mean? It makes me feel-- I know it's not the right thing to do. I know now, but at the time it's like the joy of seeing my daughter have something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: The joy of seeing a family around Christmas and Christmas presents, knowing that it's gonna put a smile on their faces. You think I'm really caring about the feeling I had about selling drugs to get that money. Not, you know, and it's you know, could I do it now? Absolutely not. Right. 'Cause I know there's harm being created, but yeah. Visintainer: That must have, that must be like a really difficult part of the journey going home and realizing, I guess is realizing that a home is not exactly the home that you're-- it's not the same place that it was before you went to, I guess. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Or it is but you're not the same. Leyva: You're not the same. No, it's hard because it depends how we define home. Right? My home with my sisters and my mom, she unfortunately passed away four years ago. Home changed when she, when she died, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Home changed when I decided to stop being the identified patient, Right. Because in my home, everybody's worried about Martin. Everybody's worried about, he's in jail, he's on drugs, he's doing this, he's doing that. I was the identified patient. And when I stopped being the identified patient in my family, my family didn't know what to do with me, let alone my community. You know, my friends growing up, like all of a sudden he's different. He's-- you know there's a loss there, right? But also now looking at home, whether it's the family or the community, now that I can see home as a different thing, I can help create a better home for those around me. Right. Access to, oh, let me help you with your job resume so you can get a better job. Let me help you get into college. Whether it's a welding certification or a HVAC certification, a job that'll get you a better pay. Right. And you can have a record and still do this work. Like, understanding this is like now I can actually help mold a new home for people, including my home. 'Cause my neighborhood in Santa Barbara is still my home. I live in San Marcos in a little neighborhood. That's considered my home too because it mirrors the same neighborhood I grew up in. Escondido, Ocean-- certain parts of Ocean[side], like these places around here. The struggle of my neighborhood is the struggle of these neighborhoods. They're not different. So I get to define and create what home is. Right. And I hope that makes sense. 'Cause it to me it's like, I think that's an obligation I feel like I have. And I always tell formerly incarcerated folks that we have an obligation to create the change that we didn't have. Be the mentors we didn't have be the fathers, we didn't have be the uncles and the brothers and everything that we didn't have or the mothers or the sisters. You know what I mean? This is-- gender's important, but we get to define home now. Hopefully better. Right. It's a matter of whether the people around us want to accept it or not. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. You know what I mean? So. Visintainer: The, the last time that you went into prison, did you know when you were in prison last time that you weren't going back? Or was that something that you realized afterwards? Leyva: You wanna hear something pretty wild? I still don't know if I'm going back. Cause I'm not the individual that says I'm never going back to prison. Visintainer: Gotcha. Leyva: I'm not the individual who says I'm never gonna drink or use again. I just know that right now, today, I'm not gonna go back and I'm not gonna drink. I'm not gonna use tomorrow. I can't predict, I can't predict two days from now. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And so I live my life that way. Right. But I knew-- This is a whole conversation itself. I didn't know, I knew when I was in prison, I was like, you know, this is, I know what rules to follow. I know what rules to adhere to. I know what rules to, to press. Right. I knew how to discipline somebody if they crossed the rule or broke a rule. That was a, is a easy life for me. I think what was, I think what happened -- actually, I don't think -- I know what happened is I met a group of men this time in prison that I was listening to. These men who were like talking to me about feelings and emotions. They were talking to me about spirituality and the sweat lodge and praying. They were talking to me about critical pedagogy, like mass incarceration and the war on drugs and gang injunctions. And I was like, "What the hell are you talking about?" These are not words that I know. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Right. And then they would give me books to read and they would like I remember after again-- I remember asking if I can go to college and the prison counselor was like, no, because you have a write up. I don't even know why I was asking for college. I got a high school diploma. I was like, I just wanted to-- I knew other people were doing college on their bunks right. From their cells. And they denied me college right away. But I still got educated in there because I read Pedagogy of the Oppressed for the first time in prison. I read My Life Is a Sun Dance by Leonard Peltier. I read Fanon, Marx and Lennon and I read all these books in prison. I had no idea what they meant. But these men were trying to critically teach me in the belly of the beast, mass incarceration. We build these buildings, we create the labor force and all this stuff. And I was back then, knowing what I know now, right this second, back then I was like, "What the hell are you talking about?" But I was still reading it. I was still listening. I was still paying attention. And when I entered college for the first time, and I'm sitting there and in sociology, they're talking, well, mass incarceration, these laws and policies and all of a sudden I'm thinking about Mitch and Joe and Squeaks these men who already put these language in my head. And I was like, this is why I gotta be critical. Right. And it all made sense. And I believe in the universe. It was the universe put that stuff in front of me. Even if it made no sense, it made sense later. Right. How did we even get here? &lt ; Laughter&gt ; But there, there is, right? I think this is super important because it's like we become, I knew I didn't know that I would never go back to prison. I still don't know. I didn't know that. I all I knew is that when I left prison, I didn't want to go back. How I was gonna do it? I don't know. But I also knew-- one advice my uncle gave me, who also I learned through observation about drug use and violence. My uncle told me a long time ago, I don't even know, I mean thirty years ago, he told me, "When you get to prison," 'cause it was a matter of if it was a matter of when or, "When you get locked up, don't drink, don't use." He always said, "Use that as a moment of clarity." And so I took that to heart. So every time I've been incarcerated at any time, I've never drank or used in prison or jail. And I think this last time I spent years not drinking, not using, because it's easy in jail, in prison to use. And I think it just had this moment of clarity where I was like, "I don't want this." And I had this guy, Mitch Bodner, who was one of my elders in prison. And he passed away this past year, last year. Early on in my sentence, he's like-- he's like, you remember pointing this finger at me and saying, "You don't belong here. There's something about you. You don't belong here." And I got offended. I was like, "What do you mean? I mean I'm here. I got the same tattoo you got!" Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, "I run with the same group you run, what do you mean I don't belong here?" And he mentored me from that day on. And he's just like, when you go home, you help the people. When you, you know, you gotta be there for your kids. You have to be a father. You have to, you know what I mean? He kept plugging me in with all this stuff. And for the beginning I was like, "You're full of shit old man." Right. But he wasn't. He wasn't. He knew what he was talking about. And I am friends with his son who's also formerly incarcerated. And as Mitch passed away, me and -- his name's Creighton Bodner -- I could see, I could see Mitch's wisdoms spewed out on him too. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I understand what Mitch was saying, like, people around you matter and they can, you take care of them and they'll take care of you. You take care of each other, you got an entire community of people who advocate for each other. And I learned that through some random dude I met in prison. So yeah. I didn't know I wanted to, I just knew, All I knew is I didn't wanna go back to prison. And so far I'm fifteen years successful. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Could we talk a little bit more about the mentors that you met? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: So how did you meet them? Leyva: Well, Mitch and Rodeo Joe were part of the same subculture. I don't call 'em gangs anymore. Like, "Oh, you're part of a prison gang." I was like, "I'm part of a prison subculture that kept me safe." And they were both-- Rodeo Joe was an artist, is an artist. And Mitch was part of uh, he's kind of a revolutionary. And Mitch was really that one guy who was like the father-figure. Right. The guy who was like-- mentored me around spirituality especially. And I always say, the sweat lodge and Native spirituality really is my practice today, it saved my life. Really. And he showed me songs and rituals and these things that, you know, I felt like got a father finally. Right? And Rodeo Joe was the, he's always reading and creating art. Reading and art. And he always-- he handed me books and said, "What do you think about this book?" And I-- we'd have conversations about different books. He was like my, both of 'em were like my teacher. But Squeaks on the other hand, I talk about Squeaks quite a bit to folks cause Squeaks was an old Black man. And in prison you don't cross lines ; drugs and cigarettes and even water. Right. Like, things you just don't do. And it's a funny story. And I've written this story before where it was easier for Joe and Mitch to be my mentors 'cause they're part of my subculture. But for somebody like Squeaks who I always say, and I'm writing about this in my dissertation, where out of Squeaks, I've cultivated this idea of a cellblock intellectual. 'Cause I remember sitting in my cell one day, the yard was open, We can exit our building, we can do everything. And I was reading The Four Agreements[: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom]. Ruiz, no not Ruiz, anyway, The Four Agreements, I don't remember the author's name, um, Miguel Ruiz. I was reading The Four Agreements and I remember Squeaks came up to my cell just to the door and he said, he's like, "What are you reading?" And we kinda have a little exchange of eyeball exchange because, you know, he's Black and I'm Native and we just had to have this understanding. It was a really funny story. And I was like, Four Agreements. And he's like, "Oh, that's a good book. It's kind of a shitty read." You know, &lt ; Visintainer laughs&gt ; like he started critically thinking like, "It's a crappy book, son! You know what I mean?" And he's the one who first handed me Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And he said, "You should read this book." And what was it? Maybe he was, no, actually I think he handed me Leonard Peltier's book. And he's like, "Here, you should read this." He starts telling me about the book. "Just to help you understand the place you're in." I took the book and I said, "Cool, thanks." Didn't pay it no mind. And sure enough, as soon as I opened it, I started reading it, I didn't really understand it, but I knew because Leonard Peltier was also Native and in prison, I had a connection to Uncle Leonard, right? And like a week and a half, two weeks later, about a week and a half, I was walking the yard and Squeak comes up to me, said, "What'd you think of that book?" And it was like, I knew that there was something there when I said, "That's pretty good." And he started to started telling me about the book. Like he had it memorized. And from there he became my mentor. And nobody ever questioned the relationship between me and Squeaks and race because they knew it was about education. Wasn't about drugs, it wasn't about food, it wasn't about anything illegal is about books. And nobody ever questioned the mentorship around literature in prison, everything else they would've. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. So there are certain ways for people in prison to interact across the racial lines then-- Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Where that, where that dynamic is not present or not as present. Leyva: Definitely. Definitely. And I think that education is one and you know, you can talk to whoever you want to talk to, but we also know that, you know, Squeaks and I both knew and Squeaks was an old dude already. So he wasn't involved in politics even though he would definitely go head to head against the system. But the prison politics, he wasn't involved. But we also knew that if anything was ever happened amongst races, we would go against each other. We just knew that without a doubt. Right. What's interesting, and it makes it very important thing to note, is that even Miguel Ruiz's book, The Four Agreements, Pedagogy [of] the Oppressed," even like the The Souls of Black [Folk], like all these books that I was reading in prison, they're all considered banned books. They're considered banned books out here. Right. And in the prison system, I can get-- Squeaks and Rodeo Joe, we can all get written up for having these books. And the more writeups we can get a sent to administrative segregation for literature. We can have our visitation privileges removed. Our commissary privileges removed, our job detail removed. Just for literature. And he always said, "Here, read this and don't get this book taken away from you." And I never understood that, "Well, who's gonna take away this book?" Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I had to learn about banned books when I came out here and I realized that every single one of those books I read was on a list that the prison system had. That if you get caught-- Pedagogy of the Oppressed had like a paper bag cover on it Didn't even say Pedagogy of the Oppressed on the outside. I remember this didn't happen to me, but I remember like books that would say, you know, Holy Bible on the outside, but on the inside it's like a whole other book. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Leyva: And they strategically hid literature inside other literature. Danielle Steele and these fucking novels, these love novels that people would always read. A lot of times it was just the covers but the books on the inside were different. Of course people were reading like love books and stuff, but I can never get into that prison book &lt ; laughs&gt ; . But I understood banned books when I came out here and I began to read about banned books and I began to understand like I can, you know, I don't understand why it's just literature. But, you know, the Attica uprising and racial groups banding together is dangerous for the system. Right. They don't want us to band together. 'Cause it would become, I always say it become like a union force. Right. And they don't want that. So they make it difficult and, and make it difficult for us to have these books. They make it punishable to have these books. Squeaks and Joe and Mitch and others knew that this was a thing. I didn't at the time, I just read the books and had conversations. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But that was my mentors and that, you know, I wholeheartedly to this day hold them in high regard. And I remember it was Mitch who said-- he always said this whole thing and people said this old cliche too. He's like, "Make sure you burn your idols. Anybody you idolize be better than them. Never-- anybody comes in your life that is teaching you something. Make sure you learn it better than they have it." And that's the goal too, when I mentor somebody, it's like, "Oh, Martin, I want to be just like you." I'm like, "Why you wanna be like me? Be better. Go higher, go farther, help more people." Do you know what I mean? It's like you always gotta, and that's what Squeaks and Mitch and Joe taught me. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And their mentorship was, is, is, and from my understanding, well one: I know Squeaks and Mitch have passed on and I think Joe is still alive. I'd love to get an interview with Joe. But yeah, that's the goal is just, you know, take their mentorship, their guidance, their love and amplify it. Visintainer: Yeah. That's a good goal. Leyva: And that's what I feel like I'm doing. I think I'm paying them a lot of respect by doing the work I do right now. Visintainer: Thank you. Thank you for talking with me a little bit about your background and how you kind of came to where you're at now. I was curious-- let's see. What led you to North San Diego County? Leyva: Graduate school. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Graduate school. Which I never thought I'd do. Right. I'm the first male in my family to go to college, let alone get an associate's degree or bachelor's degree? I got my bachelor's degree in Santa Barbara at Antioch University. Cost too much money. But Dr. Chris Bickel, who teaches here was teaching at San Luis Obispo at the time, encouraged me to go to graduate school. And it just so happened he just started teaching out here too. The same year. I came out as the same year. I think it was here about a year and a half before I came out here. But North County, San Diego was home because of graduate school and because it's a critical-- Cal State San Marcos was a very critical department of sociology, you know, they teach justice studies rather than criminology. Justice studies for me I knew for a fact when I got my bachelor's degree in psychology, I was like, "I wanna be a MFT or social worker." And then I was like, what brought me here was the idea that they were gonna pick apart rational choice here. Cause I always heard rational choice, like, people choose to drink, people choose to commit crime, people do this. And I was like, Dr. Bickel, Dr. [Xuan] Santos were like, there's systems that make-- that create this playing field that's not fair, just. There's, people don't just choose to wake up like, I'm gonna commit a crime. No. It's like your access to jobs, your access to money, your access to all these things is denied. So then we commit crimes. Right. I remember, and I did this -- really quickly -- I did this in my neighborhood: I did a little experiment in my neighborhood in Santa Barbara. I stood on the corner for like four hours, four or five hours. Hung out on the corner. In about every seven minutes there was a cop that drove by. And then I counted the liquor stores in my neighborhood. Nine block radius, eleven liquor stores. And I remember hearing a judge once tell me when I got in trouble for alcohol. They're like, you know, "You're nothing but an alcoholic." You're, you know I don't know what the judge said, but I was like, okay, you're blaming me for my alcoholism. Who's blaming you for allowing so many liquor store in my neighborhood? "Oh, you're always continuing to getting pulled over by the police. You must be trouble." I said, "Why is there then a cop driving through my neighborhood every seven minutes?" Cause they're looking for something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So you want-- I want to be accountable for the things I do, yes. But this school brought me out here. I came out here to this school because they're gonna help me hold the system accountable for the things they're doing too. The long, long que-- a long answer to that, why I'm out here, right. &lt ; laughter&gt ; Sorry. Visintainer: No, it's all good. And it's a um, I think it's a really good segue into some questions I wanted to ask. So do you believe in prison-- excuse me, prison abolition? Leyva: That's a loaded question for me because I do, I believe that we have, there's a better way. I think there's really good alternatives to incarceration. And the only reason I am not one-hundred percent sold on abolition work is because we live in a society that has not dismantled patriarchy. And so, even like Feminist Thought Theory says we should shut down the prison system, or feminist abolition work, I love it. It's beautiful work. But if we don't teach men and women to dismantle patriarchy, how are we going to open up the doors to prison for men and for women? Cause they feed into it as well. Gender, like, I would say gender's super important. We can't open up a prison or, or dismantle the prison system where people haven't dismantled sexism, racism, classism, heterosexism. Right. These integral parts of patriarchy. Are we ready for that? I think that unfortunately I do, I've met people in prison who I've like, I hope I don't know, I hope you don't get out now, but I think everybody can be rehabilitated. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I don't think we have a prison system that's doing a-- not even a halfway decent job. I wish we didn't have prison systems. I wish we had alternatives to incarceration because people do commit crimes and people commit heinous crimes. And I think that we have to be careful saying we want to abolish a prison system. I don't think we need a prison system at the magnitude that it is. You know, I don't think that there's 2.3 million people in the United States that are bad and dangerous people. I think that there's a small, maybe even less than five percent of that number that maybe should be in a facility of some sort, some rehabilitative community, some therapeutic community -- we don't have to call it a prison -- who need real help. Right. But I don't think we can abolish a prison system unless we dismantle patriarchy first. I don't think we can do it. And I've been there, I've lived inside the prison system. I've lived inside the jails, I lived inside the violence enough to know that if we abolish this system, especially coming from feminist theory, we're not ready for. Right. &lt ; shrugs&gt ; It's also a goal though. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: How do we begin to do the work on patriarchy to set people up so they can have a successful reentry. Right. So I'm not one-hundred percent sold on abolition, even though I do push a lot of abolitionist thought. You know, I mean, we have better, we can have better systems knowing what we know now. But I think we need to really focus on dismantling patriarchy before we open up the doors. Visintainer: Yeah. I think, you know, generally speaking, people have a hard time envisioning a world without a prison system, without police, you know, things like that. Without-- and I guess maybe the question that I want to ask in light of your answer to your last question is without patriarchy as well, people have trouble envisioning a world without that. Even if it's all around us and we don't even necessarily see it all the time, right. So what does a society without patriarchy look like? Leyva: I think it looks like-- I do often think about this. I think a, a society without patriarchy looks a little bit more empathetic and caring, a little bit more understanding, a little bit more -- very much actually -- community-based approaches to everyday things that happen. Arguments and fights and misunderstandings, miscommunications. Right. That if we-- I think patriarchy, there's a response to it. Right. Anger, yelling or violence or these gender roles, right. These gender roles of what women are supposed to do, what men are supposed to do. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans folks, all these folks, like all these people that live within our society. Elderly, young people, disabled, able-bodied, like the intersections of all those things, race, class, gender, ethnicity. That we need a world without patriarchy is an understanding that everybody here should be on the equal level playing field. And when something or somebody commits something against a group, right. This is the importance of restorative justice. This is the importance of conflict resolution, of alternative to violence, like all these great fields. I think that if we started teaching this stuff in literally preschool or pre-k[indergarten], first grade, second grade, third grade, all the way up has a curriculum that's based around feelings and emotions and understanding. I think we'll get to a generation someday who's less violent. Less violent, more empathetic, more caring, more-- sees the world completely different. Right. Maybe this is a big hope and dream of mine. Right. Maybe this is something that's maybe never gonna happen. But I always look at it as, you know, it's always worth the shot because what we have right now ain't working for shit, &lt ; laughs&gt ; you know what I mean? It's not working. And, you know, we gotta understand all the intersections of single parents or, or children growing up without parents or the foster care system or, you know, the world we live in with you know, sexual exploitation of young people and like a world that's a really harsh place. Right. But if we don't start teaching this stuff at a young age of how to really see each other, care about each other, you know, but I think that uh, but I do think, I think we can grow up in a world where there's less patriarchy or more defined like, you know, I'm not saying that being masculine or being-- there's something wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just our response to things doesn't have to be so like, harsh, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We can have disagreements and a conversation after. We can have a disagreement and space apart from each other, then come back and talk about it. Like, we can still have our feelings and emotions, but we teach people how to dismantle their reaction. I think little by little a world without patriarchy is more caring, you know? And it doesn't have to be loving. Nobody has to love each other. Right. But we have to care about each other. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We're in it together. Covid taught us that. &lt ; laughs&gt ; We're in it together. Right. So yeah. Visintainer: What's your future plans for Project Rebound? Or where would you like to see it head? Leyva: I think my future plan is the same future plan as a lot of the coordinators and directors across the state. But just to see it in every CSU. To see every incarcerated person have the access to associates degrees when they come home, they can, if they want, can come to a CSU and be successful and grow as an individual. I also would love to see Project Rebound here and other places. Cause we, every time we do somebody does something at their Project Rebound, we share the information. Right. I'd like to see it become a hub for not just students, but community members come get their records expunged, come and find jobs or resources, come get food. And what we say in the office is come in and shoot the shit. Let's come in and talk. Some people gotta get stuff off their chest and it's a hub where we just see each other and care about each other. Right. And right now, that's what we kind of have down there. We're just kind of building on it. It's a very small community. We want more community members that are students, but we want a bigger community of people around the university to say like, Project Rebound is supporting and helping us and that we're getting the help we need. Right. I think I see the, the work in the future for Project Rebound that it's just a place to come in and grow. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Student or not, you know what I mean? And you know, and we get, I get this idea from students who are not formally incarcerated, but are system impacted. When a student comes into my office, or, and I'm not gonna say my office comes into the office and they say, "Oh, my dad's incarcerated and I don't know what to do." And we're sitting there, me or Lawrence or one of our formerly incarcerated students to sit there to talk to the student about what they're feeling, what they're going through. I see that as a community space to heal. Right. So that's where I see the future. It's just a place to grow and heal and be seen and cared for. Visintainer: Yeah. As you know, I spend some time working around the corner from you there and from my perspective you have a community there. I see a lot of engagement. I see a lot of students talking with you and it's pretty cool. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. It is really nice. Especially post-- pre-Covid. I mean, I was trying to, I was trying to sit there in little desks and do work and there'd be like ten people in that small space and I'm like, I gotta put some earphones on or something cause &lt ; laughs&gt ; yeah. I'm trying to get work done here. Right. It is, there is a community built there and it's nice to see it come back pretty quickly now that we're back on campus and yeah, I'm grateful for that space. Visintainer: Yeah. Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't? Leyva: No. No. I think I really have appreciated this interview, this conversation. I wouldn't even call it an interview. It's a, it's a conversation because I think-- I know I'm super grateful for this opportunity to be in this academic space and this community around people that I love being around. And I mean, as a formerly incarcerated person, again, feel obligated to continue helping people because in a way I'm really helping myself. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, sometimes I feel like I'm overpaid. Like I can go home even though I take a lot of the stress home with me or the emotional labor home with me. But I also know that every day I'm putting my best foot forward and I'm doing the work. And that pays homage to Joe and Mitch and Squeaks and others. 'Cause I still remember the day I walked out of prison, the faces I left behind. Yeah. And this is my obligation to those men there. Not just the men, but all incarcerated people across this globe because incarceration is a global issue. You know, we just have the biggest one in the United States, but it is a global issue. Right. So, but I think question wise, or I think I'm good. Visintainer: All right. Well, I really appreciate your time and the conversation, so thank you very much. Leyva: You're welcome. Thank you. Visintainer: All right. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/archival_objects/22735 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Leyva, Martin. Interview October 27, 2022 Description An account of the resource Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community. Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-19 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Project Rebound Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment MiraCosta College. Transitions Program Palomar College. Transitions program Prison-industrial complex Santa Barbara City College. Transitions Program Transitions (Program) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Martin Leyva Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Martin Leyva