14 10 181 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e24d158796639884e608761a96307eb3.pdf 2610199d500af06717da987ed89ee24d PDF Text Text MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 MJ Teater: Hello. My name is MJ Teeter. Today is Tuesday, April 26th, 2022, and it is 3:00 PM. I'm here with Max Disposti. Thank you for joining me, Max. How are you today? Max Disposti: I'm honored to be here. Absolutely good. It's a beautiful day out there. Even though I haven't been able to go and see the light <laugh> <affirmative> I mean, at the center working, but we're all very excited. Yes. Teater: Yeah. Great. For the recording, can you introduce yourself what your name is? Your pronouns, when you were born, and what you do for work? Disposti: Okay. My name is Max Disposti, pronouns he/him. I'm a cisgender gay male and I was born in Rome in 1968, long time ago. And I am the executive director and founder of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. Teater: Awesome. And what did your parents do for work? Disposti: Oh, my parents now are retired because they're 85 years old. They're still alive and they live in Rome, Italy, but they were both working class individuals, actually my mom stayed at home even though she was an activist all her life, very active feminist in the city of Rome and my father as well. Teater: Well, that's awesome. <affirmative> Can you tell me about, maybe a little bit about your childhood and some of your educational experience? Disposti: Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that's five years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn't have any academic education, so to speak, they couldn't pursue a higher education, but also they were during the Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 1 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 war at the time <affirmative> even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there's always that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that's dominated by Catholic Church. Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives. When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on the street. <affirmative>. So that's my childhood. That's who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights, immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I'm in love with someone. I didn't want to lose them. <affirmative> so that's a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn't go back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn't share too much. Teater: No, that's great. I love this. Can you tell me a bit more about your education? What did you study? Disposti: When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can’t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that would have exposed them as well. Right. <affirmative> It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person, especially in a religious country like that, there's always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you're gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you're in Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, “oh my gosh, I would never make it.” These people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn't really for me as well. I went into university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my bachelor[s] over there, but didn't do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old, then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn't need the academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had to tell you it was money well invested, even though I'm still paying for it, <laugh> after so many years. Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 2 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that's my academic background pretty much. Teater: Man, you've lived such a fascinating life. <laugh> So you touched on it a little bit, but what was your career like before the North County Resource Center? Disposti: The north county resource center, I would say around 2007 or 2008 is when I made that decision to do what I do, even though at first was not a paid position. I needed to save as much as I could, reserve anything, because I didn't know where this was going to take me. <affirmative>. Prior to that, when I came in the U.S. even though I was very active and volunteering for different things, I was fortunate enough-- at the beginning I was working in hotel, the hotel industry, I used to be in San Francisco for four years. Then it was a little bit of dot com, I was doing a lot of translating because I speak Spanish and Italian. I was doing a lot of translating from one and to another with platforms, Yahoo platform and so forth. That was a very well-paid job. <affirmative> Even at the time that helped me out a little bit uplift my resources, but I wasn't documented at the time. I couldn't really invest into school or nothing because I knew I just couldn't do that to that point. And so I married my previous husband at the time in San Francisco, we decided to come down here because he had family members in the military. And when we moved to Oceanside was the place where it was cheaper and affordable. I did like the beach. I liked the fact it was Southern California. I bought at first into the life okay. Once I finish with my own immigration status, which lasted 10 years struggle. So that's why I'm very, not only sympathetic, but not many people understand about what it means to be an immigrant in this place where I had at that point, the money and the lawyers to fight the system and an education, but if it was running away from any other country from famine, war, or violence, there is no way that the U.S. will have offered me an alternative there is just no one, legally speaking. There is not an alternative if you become undocumented to fix your record, really not even if you marry someone. It's just not the way it is anymore. It took me 10 years. Yes. I feel privileged because I was able to go through all of that. In the process, I started working to make some money because my dream was always to open a community center. <affirmative> And as I was making the money, I joined some real estate firms. I was a broker and I became very successful because I was this guy that was very realistic. I didn't have dreams of screwing people over to make money. My dream was building LGBT center. I think people saw that in me, that was honest that sometimes I told people, don't buy this house because really too big for you, is not gonna be a good choice, because then you're gonna have this huge mortgage. I was having this conversation with folks, and I think the more I was honest with them, the more business was coming to me. I was doing really well at a certain point, I needed to make the decision to pull the plug and go into unemployment. Mind you I didn't say thousands of thousands of dollars, just enough to go by that unemployment lasted. I mean, I was unemployed for two years because the center couldn't pay me. I mean, it was me <affirmative> and starting a center I needed full-time dedications on everything from gathering resources, putting people together, dynamics of power that you encounter, opening the door and having someone there eight hours a day, it was a huge, huge undertaking. But I never felt alone. I always felt fortunate that people trusted me in the process. And also my leadership style has always been very sharing. The resources was never about me, my name and putting my name in top of the things I did, even though at the beginning, it shows a lot me and the center. My name is very linked to it, but mostly I started the center, but I always bring the honor, the credit to the many people, many, many people that made the center what it is today. So that's how it brought to me. I brought those corporate leaderships into this business. I brought my nonprofit academic research. I brought my life experience as Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 3 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 an activist. And I think everything just worked together. I was there for the right reason and not to rush things through. And I just had hope in my community here that things will have become like they are today or even more. Yeah, the dream's still on and we still have a lot of things we want to accomplish. <affirmative> Teater: In terms of the LGBT community, what was that like in North County? Because I know North County doesn't really have much of a presence as far as LGBT representation, as much as say Downtown or Hillcrest has. Disposti: <affirmative> It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We elected people that didn't wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they've done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to 2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they didn't have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn't believe that there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we're not doing anything special. We're just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn't realize at first the impact we're having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us, seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos <laugh>. And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a full part of the community, that's always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one, when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the mainstream of the LGBT community. <affirmative> Our board was composed by trans folks, the support Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 4 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks. And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt me. Now he's 22, so he's already grown up and he's a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don't exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to enhance the voices. So those that haven't been, that have been left out for so many years, because when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They were my friends <affirmative>. When people tell me, “Oh, I dunno, what's going on now? All of a sudden, everybody is trans or whatever,” say, “no, it's always been like that.” We always been around. I say, we, even though I'm a cisgender gay guy, because I've been blessed to be educated through the experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells me that I say “You haven't looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long.” I would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum, LGTQI or that wasn't the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors, no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to bring home what we’ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, “Oh wow, you guys were right. You were always there.” And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we're embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they're being ask[ed] to be part of our community because many of them are, and that we've been advocating with them now at the children hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the forefront and when we weren't, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three, four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it's part of everyday challenges is what I love the most to be honest, because I don't wanna come to a point where I say, “Oh, I think I know everything, and now I got all of my boxes checked.” Nothing else comes through when it's not true. Life is always moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That's how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives because they didn't go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson. We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn't wanna live anymore. There wasn't just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of pain. Some of us didn't have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. <laugh> Teater: Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 5 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 No, it's okay. I appreciate you sharing with me. I'll shift to maybe a lighter subject <laugh> for a quick second. What are some of the resources and services that are offered at the North County Resource Center and how have they changed over time? Disposti: Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn't have need assessment. We didn't know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, “Hey, if more than three people come forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?” they say that means it's needed. So, we'll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So, we're never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were. So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped in there because it was the only big room. And I say, “Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now they're gonna shut us down.” Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating more safety for our community. So sometimes we're like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years older than the kid that you're serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you're not there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, “Hey, I'm an active fifteen year old person, I’m sexually active with this person. Maybe they're at my age or a year older.” How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us opening their hearts because they knew we weren’t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we’re also mandated a reporter, right. We've done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because maybe they're dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If they don't agree with that, we don't let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is not a space where they're invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. <affirmative> That's one of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn't afford to close. We receive a lot of support from foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 6 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 can't find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-onone, “Hey, help me go through this,” family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but they're usually mostly social, like let's come together for an all queer and non-binary or let's come together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we're creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We'll have to respond to that. Teater: Oh, I love that. What are some of the challenges that you and the center face today? Disposti: I would say challenges, but also opportunities. <affirmative> I do believe that LGBT centers are the Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but supporting those spaces. I think it's a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to commit to, because as we know, as it's happening, if you take away resources from a Planned Parenthood, that's why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they're left to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people that they're being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn't <affirmative> for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be open nowadays. And <affirmative> the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And now it's eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And that's just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space for thousands of people. And that's true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth. <affirmative> While it's good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent. You don't want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it's important that, especially in California, where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don't provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually assaulted that are queer, they don't go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they're in poverty, they come to us when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse, they come to us because they know we're not here to judge. I would say that's why we’re the planned parenthood of the community <affirmative> [be]cause it's an essential vital resource. The challenges are that we're not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though they're in California. And we know that we're a little bit more protected here. We still have people at the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even though it's not here geographically speaking. That's the challenges that in a time where communication goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous administration has caused, we're still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 7 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that again, instead we are (inaudible) <affirmative> I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our favor, including a history of resilience, but it's tough. It's tough for a lot of people. <affirmative> (Unintelligible) will fight because it's value our own existence, but for a lot of people don't have the means the energy <affirmative> and we will have to fight for them too. <affirmative> I see a lot of challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight, which is total bullshit <affirmative> when it's actually through the opposite. I think that's the challenge of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it's part of the North American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. <affirmative> I can say that because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don't even realize the, the level of competitive individualism that's being created here in North America to a point that now we have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. <affirmative> I'm really concerned about those dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be <affirmative> That goes along with building an LGBT center. Teater: Yeah. You touched on this a little bit earlier, but given the history of policing with the LGBTQ+ community even in San Diego, how do you feel that police and sheriff trainings are received? Disposti: I'm gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and there <affirmative> I don't wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn't be there in my opinion. I don't have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don't like the status quo <affirmative> of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don't have any confidence in that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don't dehumanize you because I think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices with their family and many of them risk their life, <affirmative> for something that [they’re] living. I'm not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that we sit at the table I'm always very clear about: I don't think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don't think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like betrayed by the fact that “I'm a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it.” But the problem that they can't forget or separate themselves from the uniform they're wearing and what has represented for our, it's still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular. Any region is different, but-- <affirmative>. What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it's your word against Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 8 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 theirs. So that happens a lot of time <affirmative> on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it. That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn't say it's a statement to my organization, even though I would say it's a common vision. I think collaborations with police, it's important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted to be the force that serves the community, it doesn't protect status quo. I know some people might say radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our side. Teater: Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I'm not too familiar with their policing practices. Disposti: America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it’[s] like, “Okay, we don't need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It's not to lead the LGBT movements into propolicing know against policing.” Right? It's a different experience with police when I was, even though it was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) <affirmative>. There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It's a different comparison. Of course, I don't live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family's there and they're still active. I definitely have a sense of what's going on, but <affirmative>, it's just a different thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the normalcy, that being queer is not anything that's out there, but you know, you can be a police officer queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they're using them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD [University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven't earned that spot. I'm just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because I'm truthful. I don't beat the bush around. I'm just gonna tell I'm gonna work with you and everything else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that's okay with me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get money from policing <affirmative> San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose their will on, or social organizations and organizing. <affirmative> To ask, for instance, going back in the merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it's very not conducive of a good relationship. It's just a parade. <affirmative> I don't feel it's very-- so I'm sorry if I took you a little bit off, but this is-- Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 9 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 Teater: No, you're good. I'm right there with you. Disposti: It's such a current happening. Maybe people watching this many years from now, I wonder what they will think of it, but right now I feel that we're not there. They have to earn their space. And also let's remember talking about our region when you have a pride parade, you have people coming from all over the county, you have people coming from LA Mesa, Fallbrook in places where policing, the impact of policing on the streets is not as kind of transparent as it could be in any other spaces where we earn that. Right. Like in Hillcrest <affirmative> right. We need to be mindful of the experience of our queer people of policing in Chula Vista or other places, not just San Diego proper. What you see the police marching, is not everyone has the same reaction, and you cannot normalize policing by just marching an parade. You need to work every single day. So that's my-Teater: Yeah, exactly. So, what is the center's relationship with military members of the community then? [Be]cause I know they sort of have a kinship, but like they're different, but they're not, but they are. Disposti: Well. Because we cannot, I mean, I can tell you my personal stance about <affirmative> worth’s, and army, and the military. I think we spend too much money into it when this country struggle to support its own people that live here. Obviously, I'm not sympathetic about any choice of military that's military related, but when it comes to LGBT experience, I have to say the immediate impact of let's say the Marines here, the Navy on our immediate community is incomparable with policing. And what I mean, they're not doing racial profiling here in San Diego. They're not doing-- There is not a direct impact and <affirmative> for a city like Oceanside, which every family member has someone in the military. I would say that also understanding the importance of what they give and how they feel it. That is their dedication, their passion. We need to respect that. We serve a lot of veterans, a lot of military folks, but many of these folks, LGBT usually we serve them because they struggle through the military services. They went through <affirmative> health, sexual assault abuses that could never report from their commanders, <affirmative> transphobia, homophobia, punishments of any kind. We support folks because these are our people. <affirmative> It's not my place to tell them where they should go. We meet them where they are. <affirmative> But definitely it's a different experience. I would say I met amazing folks that actually have been a resource for the center and helping others from the army, from some of the Marines or the many, many veterans that they are a part of our volunteer team. I'm sure some of them might not share my views. These are personal view, again, not the center view, but definitely we did think about building a center in a military community. You could completely subject to it and be dictated on how to express your sentiment around military actions. You can be who you are and supporting the queer people around the world. That's my goal as a human rights and civil rights activist that I-- doesn't believe in any borders, or in any particular nationality, I focus on the help that my folks need in the entire world. If the America gets in the middle of that, then I will definitely denounce it but it's beyond the scope of the center. It's more my personal perspective. <affirmative> I think we are all connected in so many different ways. Teater Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 10 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 <affirmative> I love that. I have a couple more questions. I'm [going to] switch gears a little bit. What does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now? Disposti: <laugh> It means a lot. I can't believe it. And I don't look back too many times, when I do I get emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we're[employees] twelve. <affirmative> And just look around the table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn't even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of me in terms of, there's so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North County. I don't feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it’s just not, at this moment, practically possible. It takes resources. <affirmative> Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can't imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We're not in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it's not an easy thing to do. I would say I'm proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience, whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in so many different ways. So, yeah. Teater: Oh, that's so nice. During your time as an activist, and this'll be my final question, during your time as an activist, what has brought you the most joy? Disposti: Oh gosh. I don't think I can single out one. Teater: What were some of the experiences? Disposti: Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream. Really so many, I've been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center. The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don't mean in such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don't [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn't survive without our support that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know, you're on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can't pin it down, but mostly had to do with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So-- Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 11 2022-10-21 �MAX DISPOSTI TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW, 2022-04-26 Teater: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention before we sign off? Disposti: No, it's hard to recollect now, but I'm sorry for getting through the emotions. Teater: Oh no, I love it all. It's perfect. Disposti: You know, me? Yeah. I don't shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That's what I [want to] say that I know how important it's because we're doing an archive here at the center as well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it's a very tedious, slow process that takes years in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT center, but, you know, yeah. That's what we got. Thank you. Thank you. Teater: Thank you. Well, I'm [going to] stop the recording now. Disposti: Perfect. Transcribed By Sierra Jenkins 12 2022-10-21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Disposti, Max. Interview transcript. April 26, 2022. Description An account of the resource Max Disposti is the founder and Executive Director of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. In this interview, Max discusses his upbringing in Rome, Italy as a queer male and his experience coming to the U.S. and his quest to open the Resource Center. Max Disposti also talks about the parallels in how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Italy in comparison to America. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Max Disposti Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource MJ Teater Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-26 Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights North County LGBT Resource Center Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant North County (San Diego County, Calif.) Rome (Italy) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Max Disposti License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 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Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Madison Teater Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Max Disposti OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DispostiMax_MadisonTeater-2022-04-26.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. LGBT resource center nonprofit management leadership presence Stonewall OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 2022-04-26 Oral history of Max Disposti, April 26, 2022 SC027-14 00:54:20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights North County LGBT Resource Center -- California -- Oceanside North County (San Diego County, Calif.) Rome (Italy) LGBT resource center nonprofit management leadership presence Stonewall Max Disposti MJ Teater m4a DispostiMax_MadisonTeater-2022-04-26.m4a 1:|21(7)|43(6)|53(15)|65(3)|75(4)|85(4)|101(11)|113(17)|124(11)|142(11)|153(5)|165(15)|177(13)|188(7)|205(7)|215(10)|227(2)|237(6)|247(10)|259(12)|272(1)|283(4)|293(11)|303(7)|321(3)|333(3)|344(14)|356(3)|367(14)|379(6)|393(13)|406(1)|417(11)|428(6)|439(1)|450(5)|467(10)|479(2)|489(2)|500(3)|514(7)|526(8)|537(11)|550(5)|568(9)|585(13)|597(4)|607(10)|624(5)|634(2)|645(8)|668(1)|681(2)|702(9) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/90bdb0d7c052243dc1d6c76100bad70a.m4a Other audio English 97 Growing up and education in Rome Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that's five years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn't have any academic education, so to speak, they couldn't pursue a higher education, but also they were during the war at the time &lt ; affirmative&gt ; even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there's always that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that's dominated by Catholic Church. Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives. When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on the street. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . So that's my childhood. That's who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights, immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I'm in love with someone. I didn't want to lose them. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; so that's a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn't go back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn't share too much. Max Disposti recounts his childhood and educational experiences in Rome, Italy. He also goes into detail about his parents and their education. Disposti explores the social climate in Rome during his childhood and starts connecting to different movements such as the LGBT, immigration, and human rights. activism ; affordability ; Catholic Church ; higher education ; LGBT ; Rome ; safe environment ; working class activism in Rome, Italy ; Childhood ; Education ; Family education ; Growing up in Rome, Italy 41.9028° N, 12.4964° E 17 Coordinates for Rome, Italy which is where Max Disposti was born and raised. 397 More on education / Early careers Disposti: When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can’t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that would have exposed them as well. Right. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person, especially in a religious country like that, there's always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you're gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you're in Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, “oh my gosh, I would never make it.” These people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn't really for me as well. I went into university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my bachelor[s] over there, but didn't do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old, then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn't need the academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had to tell you it was money well invested, even though I'm still paying for it, &lt ; laugh&gt ; after so many years. And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that's my academic background pretty much. Max Disposti talks more about the education he received in Italy and then receiving his bachelors and masters in the United States. He further talks about his experience as an immigrant in America and undergoing the process to become a citizen. Meanwhile he was working different jobs and then touches on his goal to start an LGBT center. He leads into talking about the origins of the resource center. academic background ; bachelors ; LGBT center ; military ; nonprofit management ; Oceanside ; organized ; political science ; social sociology ; social studies ; strikes ; transplant Early jobs and career goals ; education in America and Italy ; Job opportunities in California ; Max Disposti's education and career background 33.1959° N, 117.3795° W 17 Oceanside, CA 843 The LGBT Experience in North County San Diego Disposti: It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We elected people that didn't wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they've done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to 2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they didn't have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn't believe that there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we're not doing anything special. We're just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn't realize at first the impact we're having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us, seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos &lt ; laugh&gt ; . And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a full part of the community, that's always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one, when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the mainstream of the LGBT community. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Our board was composed by trans folks, the support groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks. And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt me. Now he's 22, so he's already grown up and he's a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don't exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to enhance the voices. So those that haven't been, that have been left out for so many years, because when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They were my friends &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . When people tell me, “Oh, I dunno, what's going on now? All of a sudden, everybody is trans or whatever,” say, “no, it's always been like that.” We always been around. I say, we, even though I'm a cisgender gay guy, because I've been blessed to be educated through the experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells me that I say “You haven't looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long.” I would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum, LGTQI or that wasn't the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors, no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to bring home what we’ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, “Oh wow, you guys were right. You were always there.” And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we're embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they're being ask[ed] to be part of our community because many of them are, and that we've been advocating with them now at the children hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the forefront and when we weren't, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three, four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it's part of everyday challenges is what I love the most to be honest, because I don't wanna come to a point where I say, “Oh, I think I know everything, and now I got all of my boxes checked.” Nothing else comes through when it's not true. Life is always moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That's how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives because they didn't go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson. We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn't wanna live anymore. There wasn't just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of pain. Some of us didn't have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. &lt ; laugh&gt ; Max Disposti talks about the LGBT community in North County San Diego. Specifically areas of Oceanside where there were communities that thrived. Disposti also talks about different groups within the community and where they hung out. He begins to touch on why it was important to him to start the North County Resource Center. community ; gay ; grassroot ; lesbians ; LGBT ; LGBTQI ; Link ; marines ; military ; North County ; Oceanside ; organized ; presence ; San Diego ; support ; trans ; transgender ; youth LGBT in the military ; North County ; The LGBT community in North County 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 1471 Resources at the North County Resource Center / How the center has changed over time Disposti: Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn't have need assessment. We didn't know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, “Hey, if more than three people come forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?” they say that means it's needed. So, we'll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So, we're never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were. So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped in there because it was the only big room. And I say, “Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now they're gonna shut us down.” Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating more safety for our community. So sometimes we're like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years older than the kid that you're serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you're not there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, “Hey, I'm an active fifteen year old person, I’m sexually active with this person. Maybe they're at my age or a year older.” How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us opening their hearts because they knew we weren’t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we’re also mandated a reporter, right. We've done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because maybe they're dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If they don't agree with that, we don't let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is not a space where they're invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; That's one of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn't afford to close. We receive a lot of support from foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they can't find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-on-one, “Hey, help me go through this,” family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but they're usually mostly social, like let's come together for an all queer and non-binary or let's come together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we're creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We'll have to respond to that. Max Disposti explains the services offered at the North County Resource Center. Disposti discusses how the center has changed and became more educated and aware of the needs of those within the community. assessment ; beginning ; church ; community ; family reification ; guidelines ; hybrid ; LGBT ; LGBT centers ; mental health crisis ; procedures ; resources ; safe ; self-esteem ; successful ; trauma ; violence Mental health services ; North County Resource Center ; Support groups ; Support offered at the North County Resource Center 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 1802 Challenges and opportunities of the North County Resource Center I would say challenges, but also opportunities. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I do believe that LGBT centers are the Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but supporting those spaces. I think it's a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to commit to, because as we know, as it's happening, if you take away resources from a Planned Parenthood, that's why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they're left to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people that they're being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn't &lt ; affirmative&gt ; for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be open nowadays. And &lt ; affirmative&gt ; the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And now it's eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And that's just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space for thousands of people. And that's true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; While it's good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent. You don't want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it's important that, especially in California, where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don't provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually assaulted that are queer, they don't go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they're in poverty, they come to us when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse, they come to us because they know we're not here to judge. I would say that's why we’re the planned parenthood of the community &lt ; affirmative&gt ; [be]cause it's an essential vital resource. The challenges are that we're not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though they're in California. And we know that we're a little bit more protected here. We still have people at the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even though it's not here geographically speaking. That's the challenges that in a time where communication goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous administration has caused, we're still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that again, instead we are (inaudible) &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our favor, including a history of resilience, but it's tough. It's tough for a lot of people. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; (Unintelligible) will fight because it's value our own existence, but for a lot of people don't have the means the energy &lt ; affirmative&gt ; and we will have to fight for them too. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I see a lot of challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight, which is total bullshit &lt ; affirmative&gt ; when it's actually through the opposite. I think that's the challenge of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it's part of the North American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I can say that because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don't even realize the, the level of competitive individualism that's being created here in North America to a point that now we have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I'm really concerned about those dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be &lt ; affirmative&gt ; That goes along with building an LGBT center. Max Disposti analyzes the challenged and opportunities that come from running an LGBT resource center relating instances of both to the current political climate in the United States. He includes his experience in Italy compared to America in which things are handled differently, including the COVID-19 pandemic. commitment ; COVID ; institutionalized violence ; LGBT ; Planned Parenthood ; queer community ; trauma The challenges of running an LGBT resource center ; The opportunities of running an LGBT resource center 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 2191 LGBT police and sheriff training in San Diego / comparing local police training in Italy Disposti: I'm gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and there &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I don't wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn't be there in my opinion. I don't have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don't like the status quo &lt ; affirmative&gt ; of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don't have any confidence in that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don't dehumanize you because I think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices with their family and many of them risk their life, &lt ; affirmative&gt ; for something that [they’re] living. I'm not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that we sit at the table I'm always very clear about: I don't think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don't think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like betrayed by the fact that “I'm a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it.” But the problem that they can't forget or separate themselves from the uniform they're wearing and what has represented for our, it's still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular. Any region is different, but-- &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it's your word against theirs. So that happens a lot of time &lt ; affirmative&gt ; on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it. That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn't say it's a statement to my organization, even though I would say it's a common vision. I think collaborations with police, it's important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted to be the force that serves the community, it doesn't protect status quo. I know some people might say radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our side. Teater: Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I'm not too familiar with their policing practices. Disposti: America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it’[s] like, “Okay, we don't need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It's not to lead the LGBT movements into pro-policing know against policing.” Right? It's a different experience with police when I was, even though it was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It's a different comparison. Of course, I don't live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family's there and they're still active. I definitely have a sense of what's going on, but &lt ; affirmative&gt ; , it's just a different thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the normalcy, that being queer is not anything that's out there, but you know, you can be a police officer queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they're using them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD [University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven't earned that spot. I'm just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because I'm truthful. I don't beat the bush around. I'm just gonna tell I'm gonna work with you and everything else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that's okay with me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get money from policing &lt ; affirmative&gt ; San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose their will on, or social organizations and organizing. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; To ask, for instance, going back in the merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it's very not conducive of a good relationship. It's just a parade. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I don't feel it's very-- so I'm sorry if I took you a little bit off, but this is-- Max Disposti recounts his experience training police in North County. Disposti also shares his thoughts on police in queer spaces. Further he talks about what policing looks like in Italy for the LGBT and BIPOC communities. fear ; inclusive ; LGBT ; policing ; queer spaces LGBT police trainings ; local police ; Police and LGBT interations ; Police in Italy 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 2929 The North County Resource Center eleven years later / Joy as an activist Teater &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I love that. I have a couple more questions. I'm [going to] switch gears a little bit. What does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now? Disposti: &lt ; laugh&gt ; It means a lot. I can't believe it. And I don't look back too many times, when I do I get emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we're[employees] twelve. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; And just look around the table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn't even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of me in terms of, there's so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North County. I don't feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it’s just not, at this moment, practically possible. It takes resources. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can't imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We're not in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it's not an easy thing to do. I would say I'm proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience, whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in so many different ways. So, yeah. Teater: Oh, that's so nice. During your time as an activist, and this'll be my final question, during your time as an activist, what has brought you the most joy? Disposti: Oh gosh. I don't think I can single out one. Teater: What were some of the experiences? Disposti: Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream. Really so many, I've been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center. The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don't mean in such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don't [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn't survive without our support that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know, you're on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can't pin it down, but mostly had to do with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So-- Teater: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention before we sign off? Disposti: No, it's hard to recollect now, but I'm sorry for getting through the emotions. Teater: Oh no, I love it all. It's perfect. Disposti: You know, me? Yeah. I don't shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That's what I [want to] say that I know how important it's because we're doing an archive here at the center as well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it's a very tedious, slow process that takes years in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT center, but, you know, yeah. That's what we got. Thank you. Thank you. Max Disposti reflects on his time at the resource center and the important contributions it has made to North County. Disposti recounts the grand opening of the resource center as a highlight of his time as an activist. barrier ; encourage ; LGBT ; North County ; queer diversity Accomplishments ; Activism ; Growing and serving North County ; LGBT advocate ; Reflecting on the resource center 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego Oral history Max Disposti is the founder and Executive Director of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. In this interview, Max discusses his upbringing in Rome, Italy as a queer male and his experience coming to the U.S. and his quest to open the Resource Center. Max Disposti also talks about the parallels in how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Italy in comparison to America. MJ Teater: Hello. My name is MJ Teeter. Today is Tuesday, April 26th, 2022, and it is 3:00 PM. I&#039 ; m here with Max Disposti. Thank you for joining me, Max. How are you today? Max Disposti: I&#039 ; m honored to be here. Absolutely good. It&#039 ; s a beautiful day out there. Even though I haven&#039 ; t been able to go and see the light &lt ; laugh&gt ; &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I mean, at the center working, but we&#039 ; re all very excited. Yes. Teater: Yeah. Great. For the recording, can you introduce yourself what your name is? Your pronouns, when you were born, and what you do for work? Disposti: Okay. My name is Max Disposti, pronouns he/him. I&#039 ; m a cisgender gay male and I was born in Rome in 1968, long time ago. And I am the executive director and founder of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. Teater: Awesome. And what did your parents do for work? Disposti: Oh, my parents now are retired because they&#039 ; re 85 years old. They&#039 ; re still alive and they live in Rome, Italy, but they were both working class individuals, actually my mom stayed at home even though she was an activist all her life, very active feminist in the city of Rome and my father as well. Teater: Well, that&#039 ; s awesome. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Can you tell me about, maybe a little bit about your childhood and some of your educational experience? Disposti: Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that&#039 ; s five years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn&#039 ; t have any academic education, so to speak, they couldn&#039 ; t pursue a higher education, but also they were during the war at the time &lt ; affirmative&gt ; even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there&#039 ; s always that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that&#039 ; s dominated by Catholic Church. Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives. When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on the street. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . So that&#039 ; s my childhood. That&#039 ; s who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights, immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I&#039 ; m in love with someone. I didn&#039 ; t want to lose them. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; so that&#039 ; s a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn&#039 ; t go back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn&#039 ; t share too much. Teater: No, that&#039 ; s great. I love this. Can you tell me a bit more about your education? What did you study? Disposti: When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can&#039 ; t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that would have exposed them as well. Right. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person, especially in a religious country like that, there&#039 ; s always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you&#039 ; re gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you&#039 ; re in Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, &quot ; oh my gosh, I would never make it.&quot ; These people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn&#039 ; t really for me as well. I went into university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my bachelor[s] over there, but didn&#039 ; t do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old, then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn&#039 ; t need the academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had to tell you it was money well invested, even though I&#039 ; m still paying for it, &lt ; laugh&gt ; after so many years. And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that&#039 ; s my academic background pretty much. Teater: Man, you&#039 ; ve lived such a fascinating life. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So you touched on it a little bit, but what was your career like before the North County Resource Center? Disposti: The north county resource center, I would say around 2007 or 2008 is when I made that decision to do what I do, even though at first was not a paid position. I needed to save as much as I could, reserve anything, because I didn&#039 ; t know where this was going to take me. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . Prior to that, when I came in the U.S. even though I was very active and volunteering for different things, I was fortunate enough-- at the beginning I was working in hotel, the hotel industry, I used to be in San Francisco for four years. Then it was a little bit of dot com, I was doing a lot of translating because I speak Spanish and Italian. I was doing a lot of translating from one and to another with platforms, Yahoo platform and so forth. That was a very well-paid job. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Even at the time that helped me out a little bit uplift my resources, but I wasn&#039 ; t documented at the time. I couldn&#039 ; t really invest into school or nothing because I knew I just couldn&#039 ; t do that to that point. And so I married my previous husband at the time in San Francisco, we decided to come down here because he had family members in the military. And when we moved to Oceanside was the place where it was cheaper and affordable. I did like the beach. I liked the fact it was Southern California. I bought at first into the life okay. Once I finish with my own immigration status, which lasted 10 years struggle. So that&#039 ; s why I&#039 ; m very, not only sympathetic, but not many people understand about what it means to be an immigrant in this place where I had at that point, the money and the lawyers to fight the system and an education, but if it was running away from any other country from famine, war, or violence, there is no way that the U.S. will have offered me an alternative there is just no one, legally speaking. There is not an alternative if you become undocumented to fix your record, really not even if you marry someone. It&#039 ; s just not the way it is anymore. It took me 10 years. Yes. I feel privileged because I was able to go through all of that. In the process, I started working to make some money because my dream was always to open a community center. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; And as I was making the money, I joined some real estate firms. I was a broker and I became very successful because I was this guy that was very realistic. I didn&#039 ; t have dreams of screwing people over to make money. My dream was building LGBT center. I think people saw that in me, that was honest that sometimes I told people, don&#039 ; t buy this house because really too big for you, is not gonna be a good choice, because then you&#039 ; re gonna have this huge mortgage. I was having this conversation with folks, and I think the more I was honest with them, the more business was coming to me. I was doing really well at a certain point, I needed to make the decision to pull the plug and go into unemployment. Mind you I didn&#039 ; t say thousands of thousands of dollars, just enough to go by that unemployment lasted. I mean, I was unemployed for two years because the center couldn&#039 ; t pay me. I mean, it was me &lt ; affirmative&gt ; and starting a center I needed full-time dedications on everything from gathering resources, putting people together, dynamics of power that you encounter, opening the door and having someone there eight hours a day, it was a huge, huge undertaking. But I never felt alone. I always felt fortunate that people trusted me in the process. And also my leadership style has always been very sharing. The resources was never about me, my name and putting my name in top of the things I did, even though at the beginning, it shows a lot me and the center. My name is very linked to it, but mostly I started the center, but I always bring the honor, the credit to the many people, many, many people that made the center what it is today. So that&#039 ; s how it brought to me. I brought those corporate leaderships into this business. I brought my nonprofit academic research. I brought my life experience as an activist. And I think everything just worked together. I was there for the right reason and not to rush things through. And I just had hope in my community here that things will have become like they are today or even more. Yeah, the dream&#039 ; s still on and we still have a lot of things we want to accomplish. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Teater: In terms of the LGBT community, what was that like in North County? Because I know North County doesn&#039 ; t really have much of a presence as far as LGBT representation, as much as say Downtown or Hillcrest has. Disposti: &lt ; affirmative&gt ; It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We elected people that didn&#039 ; t wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they&#039 ; ve done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to 2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they didn&#039 ; t have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn&#039 ; t believe that there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we&#039 ; re not doing anything special. We&#039 ; re just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn&#039 ; t realize at first the impact we&#039 ; re having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us, seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos &lt ; laugh&gt ; . And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a full part of the community, that&#039 ; s always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one, when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the mainstream of the LGBT community. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Our board was composed by trans folks, the support groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks. And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt me. Now he&#039 ; s 22, so he&#039 ; s already grown up and he&#039 ; s a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don&#039 ; t exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to enhance the voices. So those that haven&#039 ; t been, that have been left out for so many years, because when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They were my friends &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . When people tell me, &quot ; Oh, I dunno, what&#039 ; s going on now? All of a sudden, everybody is trans or whatever,&quot ; say, &quot ; no, it&#039 ; s always been like that.&quot ; We always been around. I say, we, even though I&#039 ; m a cisgender gay guy, because I&#039 ; ve been blessed to be educated through the experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells me that I say &quot ; You haven&#039 ; t looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long.&quot ; I would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum, LGTQI or that wasn&#039 ; t the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors, no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to bring home what we&#039 ; ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, &quot ; Oh wow, you guys were right. You were always there.&quot ; And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we&#039 ; re embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they&#039 ; re being ask[ed] to be part of our community because many of them are, and that we&#039 ; ve been advocating with them now at the children hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the forefront and when we weren&#039 ; t, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three, four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it&#039 ; s part of everyday challenges is what I love the most to be honest, because I don&#039 ; t wanna come to a point where I say, &quot ; Oh, I think I know everything, and now I got all of my boxes checked.&quot ; Nothing else comes through when it&#039 ; s not true. Life is always moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That&#039 ; s how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives because they didn&#039 ; t go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson. We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn&#039 ; t wanna live anymore. There wasn&#039 ; t just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of pain. Some of us didn&#039 ; t have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. &lt ; laugh&gt ; Teater: No, it&#039 ; s okay. I appreciate you sharing with me. I&#039 ; ll shift to maybe a lighter subject &lt ; laugh&gt ; for a quick second. What are some of the resources and services that are offered at the North County Resource Center and how have they changed over time? Disposti: Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn&#039 ; t have need assessment. We didn&#039 ; t know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, &quot ; Hey, if more than three people come forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?&quot ; they say that means it&#039 ; s needed. So, we&#039 ; ll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So, we&#039 ; re never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were. So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped in there because it was the only big room. And I say, &quot ; Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now they&#039 ; re gonna shut us down.&quot ; Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating more safety for our community. So sometimes we&#039 ; re like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years older than the kid that you&#039 ; re serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you&#039 ; re not there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, &quot ; Hey, I&#039 ; m an active fifteen year old person, I&#039 ; m sexually active with this person. Maybe they&#039 ; re at my age or a year older.&quot ; How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us opening their hearts because they knew we weren&#039 ; t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we&#039 ; re also mandated a reporter, right. We&#039 ; ve done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because maybe they&#039 ; re dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If they don&#039 ; t agree with that, we don&#039 ; t let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is not a space where they&#039 ; re invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; That&#039 ; s one of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn&#039 ; t afford to close. We receive a lot of support from foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they can&#039 ; t find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-on-one, &quot ; Hey, help me go through this,&quot ; family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but they&#039 ; re usually mostly social, like let&#039 ; s come together for an all queer and non-binary or let&#039 ; s come together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we&#039 ; re creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We&#039 ; ll have to respond to that. Teater: Oh, I love that. What are some of the challenges that you and the center face today? Disposti: I would say challenges, but also opportunities. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I do believe that LGBT centers are the Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but supporting those spaces. I think it&#039 ; s a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to commit to, because as we know, as it&#039 ; s happening, if you take away resources from a Planned Parenthood, that&#039 ; s why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they&#039 ; re left to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people that they&#039 ; re being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn&#039 ; t &lt ; affirmative&gt ; for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be open nowadays. And &lt ; affirmative&gt ; the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And now it&#039 ; s eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And that&#039 ; s just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space for thousands of people. And that&#039 ; s true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; While it&#039 ; s good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent. You don&#039 ; t want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it&#039 ; s important that, especially in California, where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don&#039 ; t provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually assaulted that are queer, they don&#039 ; t go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they&#039 ; re in poverty, they come to us when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse, they come to us because they know we&#039 ; re not here to judge. I would say that&#039 ; s why we&#039 ; re the planned parenthood of the community &lt ; affirmative&gt ; [be]cause it&#039 ; s an essential vital resource. The challenges are that we&#039 ; re not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though they&#039 ; re in California. And we know that we&#039 ; re a little bit more protected here. We still have people at the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even though it&#039 ; s not here geographically speaking. That&#039 ; s the challenges that in a time where communication goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous administration has caused, we&#039 ; re still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that again, instead we are (inaudible) &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our favor, including a history of resilience, but it&#039 ; s tough. It&#039 ; s tough for a lot of people. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; (Unintelligible) will fight because it&#039 ; s value our own existence, but for a lot of people don&#039 ; t have the means the energy &lt ; affirmative&gt ; and we will have to fight for them too. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I see a lot of challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight, which is total bullshit &lt ; affirmative&gt ; when it&#039 ; s actually through the opposite. I think that&#039 ; s the challenge of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it&#039 ; s part of the North American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I can say that because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don&#039 ; t even realize the, the level of competitive individualism that&#039 ; s being created here in North America to a point that now we have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I&#039 ; m really concerned about those dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be &lt ; affirmative&gt ; That goes along with building an LGBT center. Teater: Yeah. You touched on this a little bit earlier, but given the history of policing with the LGBTQ+ community even in San Diego, how do you feel that police and sheriff trainings are received? Disposti: I&#039 ; m gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and there &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I don&#039 ; t wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn&#039 ; t be there in my opinion. I don&#039 ; t have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don&#039 ; t like the status quo &lt ; affirmative&gt ; of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don&#039 ; t have any confidence in that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don&#039 ; t dehumanize you because I think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices with their family and many of them risk their life, &lt ; affirmative&gt ; for something that [they&#039 ; re] living. I&#039 ; m not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that we sit at the table I&#039 ; m always very clear about: I don&#039 ; t think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don&#039 ; t think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like betrayed by the fact that &quot ; I&#039 ; m a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it.&quot ; But the problem that they can&#039 ; t forget or separate themselves from the uniform they&#039 ; re wearing and what has represented for our, it&#039 ; s still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular. Any region is different, but-- &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it&#039 ; s your word against theirs. So that happens a lot of time &lt ; affirmative&gt ; on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it. That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn&#039 ; t say it&#039 ; s a statement to my organization, even though I would say it&#039 ; s a common vision. I think collaborations with police, it&#039 ; s important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted to be the force that serves the community, it doesn&#039 ; t protect status quo. I know some people might say radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our side. Teater: Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I&#039 ; m not too familiar with their policing practices. Disposti: America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it&#039 ; [s] like, &quot ; Okay, we don&#039 ; t need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It&#039 ; s not to lead the LGBT movements into pro-policing know against policing.&quot ; Right? It&#039 ; s a different experience with police when I was, even though it was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) &lt ; affirmative&gt ; . There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It&#039 ; s a different comparison. Of course, I don&#039 ; t live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family&#039 ; s there and they&#039 ; re still active. I definitely have a sense of what&#039 ; s going on, but &lt ; affirmative&gt ; , it&#039 ; s just a different thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the normalcy, that being queer is not anything that&#039 ; s out there, but you know, you can be a police officer queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they&#039 ; re using them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD [University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven&#039 ; t earned that spot. I&#039 ; m just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because I&#039 ; m truthful. I don&#039 ; t beat the bush around. I&#039 ; m just gonna tell I&#039 ; m gonna work with you and everything else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that&#039 ; s okay with me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get money from policing &lt ; affirmative&gt ; San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose their will on, or social organizations and organizing. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; To ask, for instance, going back in the merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it&#039 ; s very not conducive of a good relationship. It&#039 ; s just a parade. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I don&#039 ; t feel it&#039 ; s very-- so I&#039 ; m sorry if I took you a little bit off, but this is-- Teater: No, you&#039 ; re good. I&#039 ; m right there with you. Disposti: It&#039 ; s such a current happening. Maybe people watching this many years from now, I wonder what they will think of it, but right now I feel that we&#039 ; re not there. They have to earn their space. And also let&#039 ; s remember talking about our region when you have a pride parade, you have people coming from all over the county, you have people coming from LA Mesa, Fallbrook in places where policing, the impact of policing on the streets is not as kind of transparent as it could be in any other spaces where we earn that. Right. Like in Hillcrest &lt ; affirmative&gt ; right. We need to be mindful of the experience of our queer people of policing in Chula Vista or other places, not just San Diego proper. What you see the police marching, is not everyone has the same reaction, and you cannot normalize policing by just marching an parade. You need to work every single day. So that&#039 ; s my-- Teater: Yeah, exactly. So, what is the center&#039 ; s relationship with military members of the community then? [Be]cause I know they sort of have a kinship, but like they&#039 ; re different, but they&#039 ; re not, but they are. Disposti: Well. Because we cannot, I mean, I can tell you my personal stance about &lt ; affirmative&gt ; worth&#039 ; s, and army, and the military. I think we spend too much money into it when this country struggle to support its own people that live here. Obviously, I&#039 ; m not sympathetic about any choice of military that&#039 ; s military related, but when it comes to LGBT experience, I have to say the immediate impact of let&#039 ; s say the Marines here, the Navy on our immediate community is incomparable with policing. And what I mean, they&#039 ; re not doing racial profiling here in San Diego. They&#039 ; re not doing-- There is not a direct impact and &lt ; affirmative&gt ; for a city like Oceanside, which every family member has someone in the military. I would say that also understanding the importance of what they give and how they feel it. That is their dedication, their passion. We need to respect that. We serve a lot of veterans, a lot of military folks, but many of these folks, LGBT usually we serve them because they struggle through the military services. They went through &lt ; affirmative&gt ; health, sexual assault abuses that could never report from their commanders, &lt ; affirmative&gt ; transphobia, homophobia, punishments of any kind. We support folks because these are our people. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; It&#039 ; s not my place to tell them where they should go. We meet them where they are. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; But definitely it&#039 ; s a different experience. I would say I met amazing folks that actually have been a resource for the center and helping others from the army, from some of the Marines or the many, many veterans that they are a part of our volunteer team. I&#039 ; m sure some of them might not share my views. These are personal view, again, not the center view, but definitely we did think about building a center in a military community. You could completely subject to it and be dictated on how to express your sentiment around military actions. You can be who you are and supporting the queer people around the world. That&#039 ; s my goal as a human rights and civil rights activist that I-- doesn&#039 ; t believe in any borders, or in any particular nationality, I focus on the help that my folks need in the entire world. If the America gets in the middle of that, then I will definitely denounce it but it&#039 ; s beyond the scope of the center. It&#039 ; s more my personal perspective. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I think we are all connected in so many different ways. Teater &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I love that. I have a couple more questions. I&#039 ; m [going to] switch gears a little bit. What does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now? Disposti: &lt ; laugh&gt ; It means a lot. I can&#039 ; t believe it. And I don&#039 ; t look back too many times, when I do I get emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we&#039 ; re[employees] twelve. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; And just look around the table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn&#039 ; t even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of me in terms of, there&#039 ; s so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North County. I don&#039 ; t feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it&#039 ; s just not, at this moment, practically possible. It takes resources. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can&#039 ; t imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We&#039 ; re not in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it&#039 ; s not an easy thing to do. I would say I&#039 ; m proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience, whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in so many different ways. So, yeah. Teater: Oh, that&#039 ; s so nice. During your time as an activist, and this&#039 ; ll be my final question, during your time as an activist, what has brought you the most joy? Disposti: Oh gosh. I don&#039 ; t think I can single out one. Teater: What were some of the experiences? Disposti: Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream. Really so many, I&#039 ; ve been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center. The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don&#039 ; t mean in such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don&#039 ; t [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn&#039 ; t survive without our support that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know, you&#039 ; re on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can&#039 ; t pin it down, but mostly had to do with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So-- Teater: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention before we sign off? Disposti: No, it&#039 ; s hard to recollect now, but I&#039 ; m sorry for getting through the emotions. Teater: Oh no, I love it all. It&#039 ; s perfect. Disposti: You know, me? Yeah. I don&#039 ; t shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That&#039 ; s what I [want to] say that I know how important it&#039 ; s because we&#039 ; re doing an archive here at the center as well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it&#039 ; s a very tedious, slow process that takes years in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT center, but, you know, yeah. That&#039 ; s what we got. Thank you. Thank you. Teater: Thank you. Well, I&#039 ; m [going to] stop the recording now. Disposti: Perfect. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DispostiMax_MadisonTeater-2022-04-26.xml DispostiMax_MadisonTeater-2022-04-26.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Disposti, Max. Interview April 26, 2022 Description An account of the resource Max Disposti is the founder and Executive Director of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. In this interview, Max discusses his upbringing in Rome, Italy as a queer male and his experience coming to the U.S. and his quest to open the Resource Center. Max Disposti also talks about the parallels in how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Italy in comparison to America. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-14 Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights North County LGBT Resource Center -- California -- Oceanside Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Rome (Italy) North County (San Diego County, Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Max Disposti Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Max Disposti Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madison Teater Activists and activism Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience LGBTQIA+ experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aaron Williams Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Merryl Goldberg OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. music;activism;arts education;censorship OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 SC027-078 01:28:23 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES Klezmer music Klezmer Conservatory Band Soviet Union Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Smuggling -- Soviet Union music ; activism ; arts education ; censorship Merryl Goldberg Aaron Williams Video GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/93e37e5636e5ef1f864f806c9067fbf1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and roles on campus Goldberg discusses her roles on campus as a music professor and Director of Center ARTES at Cal State San Marcos. She describes their current project ART=OPPORTUNITY that encourages arts education for all students. With assistance from several funders, Goldberg enthuses about the capability of Center ARTES to implement creativity in curriculum across California. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 324 Family and music education Now a professional saxophonist, Goldberg shares where her love of music originated. She talks about being immersed in a creative household, pursuing the saxophone despite initial hesitancy from her parents, and joining the prestigious New England Conservatory of Music. Goldberg also shares about performing professionally with the Klezmer Conservatory Band. 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 659 Klezmer Conservatory Band After sharing about her musical education and introduction to klezmer music, Goldberg recounts the foundation of the Klezmer Conservatory Band with Hankus Netsky at the New England Conservatory of Music. After completing her education, she supported herself financially with performances and private lessons. Since most of the klezmer music was previously never written down, Goldberg describes being able to improvise, learn, and transcribe music. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 1198 Family background and Jewish identity Goldberg delves deeper into her family background. Although her parents were not musicians, she describes their creativity that was passed on to her. She recounts witnessing her grandfather play alongside jazz pioneers like Duke Ellington and Nat King Cole. Despite not knowing it at the time, Goldberg reflects upon growing up in a lower-income community that fostered a child's creativity and imagination. Subsequently, Goldberg shares more about her family background, her Jewish identity, and the foundational aspects of Judaism that encourage creative education. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1980 Secret code with sheet music After describing her musical education, family background, and Jewish identity, Goldberg discusses her experience in the Soviet Union. Providing meaningful historical context, she describes the dire situation in the USSR faced by minorities and freethinkers alike. Utilizing her musical education, she recounts devising a secret code with sheet music. Goldberg then elaborates on why she felt compelled to take action, and why documenting stories of Jewish persecution mattered. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2874 Music as resistance and arts education During her time in the USSR, faced with interrogation and possibly incarceration, Goldberg now reflects on music as a form of resistance. She expresses the importance of freedom within one's own mind, which can and should never be policed or censored by fascism and oppression. Goldberg then describes implementing and reinforcing this philosophy through her work as a professor. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 4042 Why histories matter Wrapping up her own shared story, Goldberg states why people's stories matter. Comparing the Soviet Union in the 1980s to the USA in 2025, Goldberg stresses the importance of empathy, nuance, and compassion. She further elaborates on the preservation of voices under persecution in the past and present. Additionally, she discusses the serendipitous revelation of her secret code and an upcoming book about her experience smuggling out stories of Jewish persecution in the Soviet Union. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:17.000 Okay. Today is Wednesday, the 9th of April 2025. For the Special Collections of California State University of San Marcos, my name is Aaron Williams. And I am interviewing Merryl (Goldberg). Thank you for joining me. How are you? 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:20.000 I'm doing great, thanks. Thanks for having me. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Yeah, of course. So, this is for the oral history project with Special Collections. You are a professor on this campus in the School of Arts and Director of Center for ARTES. Am I pronouncing that right? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 Yep. Center ARTES. 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:44.000 Okay. Can I quickly ask about that and your role on campus? 00:00:44.000 --> 00:01:13.000 Yeah, sure. So I'm a professor, music professor. I've been here for over thirty years. And Center ARTES is a center dedicated to ensuring that all kids have access to arts education. Or arts integration in the classroom, and working with school teachers and districts to create those opportunities so people feel comfortable integrating the arts throughout the curriculum. 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:25.000 Okay, cool. So do you work -- what does that look like for you and like the work you do? Like, what is your role in, or—sorry. What specifically do the work you do, if that makes sense? 00:01:25.000 --> 00:05:03.000 Yeah. So specifically, the work of Center ARTES, right now we have our ginormous project called Art=Opportunity. So, under Center ARTES, Art=Opportunities, there's myself, there are multiple faculty fellows who, you know, other members of the faculty, both in the School of Arts and in the School of Education. And actually one of our partners from San Marcos Unified (School District) is a fellow as well. We have several projects. One big one is creating career pathways for people who want to become arts teachers in schools, or teachers on special assignment where they can integrate the arts into the curriculum. By that I mean using music to teach biology, or visual art to teach reading or dance and science. There's just so many ways that the arts can really be foundational to learning and to knowledge and to kids' excitement and creativity and using their imagination. It’s really a foundational skill, the arts are. So, that's one of our big projects. We also have a lot of STEAM (Science, technology, engineering, arts, and mathematics) projects, which mean arts integrated into math and science and engineering. In fact, we have a whole group of STEAM ambassadors who are students who go out into schools doing the curriculum, developing STEAM curriculum, implementing it in schools. We have some podcasting that we do. We have a project called Harmony Hacks (funded by National Science Foundation that encourages women’s participation in computer science) in cooperation with Computer Science folks, which is coding through music. That's a really cool project. That's a—we have other projects too. And in the past, we've done quite a few professional development projects in schools. The DREAM Project, which is Developing Reading Education through Arts Methods. And SUAVE (Socios Unidos para Artes Via Educacion—United Community for Arts Education), which is an arts integration project. In addition to the actual hands-on projects and boot camps for teachers and for student teachers, we do quite a bit of documentation and evaluation of the programs as well. So that's a important aspect of what we do. What we do translates and has become a model statewide in several instances. And that really is something that I think is great cause our reach goes beyond here. I mean, here would be enough, but the fact that our reach goes beyond is pretty great too. And we have support from a number of funders. The—currently the Hewlett Foundation (founded in 1966 by William and Flora Hewlett in 1966 which awards grants that support diverse and inclusive causes) has been really generous with their support of our work. As been the Heller Foundation (awards funding that advances environmental and arts education opportunities). In the past we've had the Stewart Foundation (dedicated to programs that develop fundamental leadership skills for youth). We currently have a National Science Foundation (independent federal agency that funds non-medical science and engineering programs) grant. We've had California Arts Council (state agency dedicated to Californian culture that promotes creative arts education), National Endowment for the Arts (independent federal agency that funds artistic development). So, we're really a pretty robust center. And I would suggest anybody who is interested in looking at it in more depth could always go to csum.edu/artopp. 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:32.000 Right, that's how I was researching this previously—prior to this interview. I love that you were talking about how far your reach has went beyond this campus using music. And I want to now specifically talk about your love of music and how that, or where that came from. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Oh, that's a great question. I am a professional musician. I play saxophone. I was on the road for thirteen years performing professionally all over the world with a band called the Klezmer Conservatory Band (formed by Hankus Netsky in 1980 ; Goldberg was also a founding member). Klezmer music is Eastern European Yiddish music, kind of like the real version of Fiddler on the Roof (1964 Broadway musical by Jerry Bock, Sheldon Harnick, and Joseph Stein that was based on Sholem Aleichem’s character Tevye the Dairyman). I come from a really artistic family. My father was a visual artist, actually a graphic designer. And his father, my grandfather, played viola in the Boston Pops (offshoot of the BSO founded in 1885 that plays popular and classical music) and in the Boston Symphony (Orchestra or BSO ; founded in 1881, the second-oldest major American orchestra) and with big bands (also known as jazz orchestras ; ensembles of about ten or more musicians that popularized jazz and swing music during the 1940s). And later in life, my grandfather was the musical director at WEZE in Boston, a radio station. So as a little kid, I remember distinctly going to see my grandfather play on the (Charles River) Esplanade (state park) in Boston on, you know, on multiple concerts. Including July 4th seeing him up on the stage, listening to him play. And when we visited my grandparents, my two aunts who lived next door would come on over. And my Aunt Zelde played piano, and she was a piano teacher. My grandfather and my aunt would perform for us all the time when we were little. So I had music in my background and my— oh, and we had a record collection like crazy. And my dad played music always in the house. I even have pictures of myself with my dad when I was probably like a year and a half, or not even two, playing the bongos and having a record player right next door. So when I was in third, fourth grade, I knew I wanted to play music, and I really wanted to play the saxophone because I saw a picture in my music book of a saxophone. And there was just something about it, maybe it had so many buttons and it was shiny. I was dying to play a saxophone. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:10:49.000 I told my parents I wanna play saxophone. And they said, “No, it's a boys instrument. You'll have to pick something else.” So I picked guitar, but I never gave up on the saxophone. I started taking guitar lessons, which I also loved. And at the studio where I took the guitar lessons, the Buddy Reis studio in Somerset, Massachusetts, they taught all the instruments. And so, I asked if I could try playing saxophone. And they let me. (laugher) I took saxophone lessons on the sly. By the time I was going into high school, I told my parents that I really needed to play the saxophone at that point because I wanted to be in the marching band, no guitars in the marching band. They finally, finally relented and said, “Okay, you can play a saxophone.” I said, “Well, I actually know how to play saxophone. I just need one at this point.” And I had one of the best music programs probably in the state of Massachusetts, just absolutely incredible. Played a lot of music, was in the concert band, the symphonic band, the orchestra marching band. Got a lot of music education, ultimately decided that I really wanted to major in music. And was super lucky to have gotten accepted into New England Conservatory of Music (founded in 1867 in Boston, Massachusetts), which is a very elite music school. It's kind of like Yale is to Harvard (two private Ivy League universities that maintain prestigious reputations). New England Conservatory of Music, NEC, is to Julliard. If you know music schools. Really topnotch and I just loved it. I loved being at the conservatory. While I was there, performed all the time. Ended up being part of this band that we put together for a Jewish music concert. We ended up naming ourselves Klezmer Conservatory Band (and) played on a concert. People went nuts. And then built up a repertoire and we were just in demand. Constantly in demand for performances. Then a famous radio personality called— whose name is Garrison Keeler, on a radio show called Prairie Home Companion (weekly radio show from 1974 to 2016 that reached over four million Americans at its height), heard of us. And then we got national exposure and started recording, and it just built from there, there, there. I love music. I love listening to especially jazz, Brazilian music. Anything with a really good beat I really like. 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Yeah, I love hearing this passion of music. It's— I hope you don't mind, it's gonna be a prominent theme of this conversation. (overlapping dialogue) 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.000 Yeah, sure. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:08.000 You were mentioning the Klezmer Conservatory Band, and you mentioned you formed it, or were you— How did that start? 00:11:08.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Yeah, so I was a student at New England Conservatory of Music, and I was really into Jewish music. Jewish music is really diverse because Jewish people are in the diasporas (referring to Jewish communities outside their historical lands, particularly after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE). So, there's Jewish music from, let's say, Columbia in South America, from Eastern Europe, from the Middle East. One of the musics I loved like crazy was Yemenite music. There's a lot of Jewish Yemenite music, which is, it's got such an interesting sound to it, like (Goldberg vocalizes a Yemenite tune). It's very circular and it's fun to play and you can dance to it. And then it turns out there's actually a lot of Jewish themed classical music as well. So, for fun, I connected with a professor there, Hankus Netsky (multi-instrumentalist and chair of Contemporary Improvisation Department at the New England Conservatory). And he and I decided, wouldn't it be fun to have a Jewish music concert? And that played music that was, you know, everything from classical to Yemenite. He was really interested in klezmer, cause he had an uncle who had played in klezmer bands. I had not even heard of klezmer. But between Hankus and I and like a whole group of students, we put together this really cool program, very diverse program. At the end of it, we played three klezmer tunes that Hankus had brought to us. Now we learned those tunes by ear because they weren't written down. They were recorded on old 78s (vinyl records that play at 78 revolutions per minute, largely discontinued by the 1950s). And so, we would listen to the music and transcribe it note for note. And then we played together. So, one of the pieces we played on our very first concert, I think was “Silver Wedding,” which is a very upbeat piece. It sounds like this (Goldberg vocalizes tune). And, you know, really upbeat. Audience went cuckoo after we finished playing, wouldn't stop clapping. We didn't have an encore. So, we just played that tune again. And the rest is kind of history with regard to the Klezmer (Conservatory Band). But that's how it all started. So in a way, I was one of the, I was clearly one of the founders of the band, along with Hankus. And Hankus was really the one who brought that music to all of us. So, there you have it. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Do you remember about like, the time period? So it was when you were in college? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:15.000 Oh, yeah. So that was, that first music concert was probably 1979 or 1980. 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.000 And this is at the Conservatory— sorry, New York? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:18.399 In Boston. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.000 Boston. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:26.000 Yeah. New England Conservatory (overlapping dialogue) New England Conservatory of Music in Boston. 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:27.000 Gotcha. 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:34.000 Actually kitty-corner (diagonally opposite) to Symphony Hall (concert hall that hosts the Boston Symphony Orchestra since 1900). It's in that part of Boston where there's quite a lot of music. 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:41.000 I have never left California, so everything in the East Coast is New York to my ignorant brain. (laughter) I apologize. Boston. 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:49.000 That's okay. As long as you're not a Yankees fan, it doesn't matter. Boston Red Sox, Yankees, big rivalry. So-- 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Love the Red Sox. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 There you go. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:57.000 So, you started the music, the Conservatory— sorry— 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band. 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:10.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band in Boston around 1979. After you left the (New England) Conservatory, how did you pursue music still? 00:15:10.000 --> 00:16:12.000 Right, so, let's see. I graduated the Conservatory in ‘81. We were already performing professionally. You know, getting gigs in the Boston area and in the Philadelphia area, some in New York. And as the band’s popularity grew we continued to perform. So that's how I made my living, was performing with the band because I got paid for all the concerts. Also got paid to play parties and bar mitzvahs and wedding anniversaries and, you know, lots of things like that. So my, basically, I pulled together a living by performing teaching private lessons and I taught in a school part-time as a, you know, I was a music teacher. My degree from New England Conservatory of Music was in music education and saxophone performance. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:24.000 Yes. So, going with the— while performing with— music in Boston, what music did you lean towards? I'm guessing jazz, klezmer music? 00:16:24.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Yeah, klezmer music. Again, kind of like the Eastern European music. So I performed a lot— I mean, that was my main gig, was playing klezmer music. But I also did gigs with other kinds of music. Mostly classical. I was part of a classical like modern music ensemble. And we performed at the (New England) Conservatory as well. And that would be music that was so fun to play, might not have been as fun to listen to. Some crazy pieces with nursery rhymes and saxophone, or a solo saxophone, or saxophone quartet. Different pieces that were basically like twentieth century music or twenty-first century newly composed music. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:44.000 So it sounds like you really enjoy experimenting with music and seeing where it could go. (Goldberg affirms). Earlier you were mentioning writing— having to transcribe music. Or write music yourself, as there wasn't written (sheet music) previously. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:18:34.000 Ah, so the klezmer music, we learned all of that by listening to old recordings. Or finding older musicians who might have played the music and learning from them, because none of it was written down. So that's how we learned all of that. The klezmer music. And so what we did is we would listen to it— exactly, transcribe it, write it down. Although when we performed in concerts, basically because we had learned it all by ear, we just played without music, without sheet music in front of us. I could play easily play concerts without any, you know, music in front of me because I knew all the tunes. It's a lot more fun to play without the music anyways cause you're not constrained by it. 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:53.000 Yeah, I cannot fathom that. Like, I played music in middle school and stopped. So obviously my knowledge is not at your level, but it was always, I'm sure, impressive. Or was it just like, was it just like innate or did, how did you get to that level? Just being able to play without sheet music. 00:18:53.000 --> 00:19:56.000 Without sheet music, you know, I think for musicians, once you know the tune you can just play it basically. Like for— in this genre of music anyways, or in any folk area, even in jazz I would say. Classical's a little harder because you have to be very exact. In klezmer music, you can just play. But I know what you mean because I look at people who are in the theater. In a million years, I could never memorize a play. I don't know how people do it. I don't know how the heck they can remember it. But maybe it is the same as, you know, the skill I have in music to be able to just play a whole concert without any sheet music because I know it, right? (Williams affirms). I guess that's a skill that actors have that's just a different part of the brain. But I can’t in a million years imagine being able to do that. 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:15.000 It's fascinating, so thank you for that perspective. Cause yeah, it's unimaginable for me, both instances, acting and music. Thank you for sharing the, about your love of music. And the instrument. Saxophone— It was so interesting hearing how your parents were like, no, that's a boys' instrument. 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:27.000 I know. Well, I'm old, you know, (laughs) and people had those, you know, those kind of biases back then. But, you know, ultimately my parents gave in. 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Right, of course. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.000 Yeah. 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Just the initial, like hesitancy. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:42.000 Why do you think— cause again, I mean, I'm not from that time. But I would've thought, “But they'd let you play guitar?” That also seemed like a little— 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:51.000 What was, you know, like an acoustic guitar, not an electric guitar. Although eventually I got an electric guitar too. That was really fun. (laughter) 00:20:51.000 --> 00:21:05.000 That's so fascinating. So, your parents were obviously supporting your music. Did you learn, did you mention— sorry, I forget a little bit. They played klezmer music as well? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:23:02.000 So my parents were not musicians. My dad was a graphic designer. My mom was a teacher. And my mom also was just phenomenally talented. She made, she knitted, she sewed clothes, she made stained glass and these really unique collage pins with decoupage (crafting with glued cutouts in combination with paint or gold leaf). So, she was very creative. And my dad, of course, was a graphic designer, visual artist. And he also painted wonderful paintings. I have so many of them up in my home. My grandfather is the one who was also a professional musician, and he played classical music, but he also played jazz. He actually played with Duke Ellington (pianist, bandleader, and composer who is considered a pioneer of jazz) and Stan Kenton (Stanley ; jazz pianist and composer) with a guy named Paul Whiteman (bandleader, composer, and violinist recognized by Ellington as the King of Jazz). These are— back in the forties and fifties, there were the big bands would travel from city to city. And they actually had a whole string section with them. I mean, a string section that would play with them. But they didn't travel with the string sections. They were hired in each town. So my grandfather was always hired. Yeah, we have pictures of him with Nat King Cole (singer, pianist, and actor who pioneered jazz ensembles and achieved crossover success during the civil rights movement), and other famous folks. And he played with him. And I remember as a kid, you know, he would tell me, “Oh yeah, I'm going off. They're playing with the Duke Ellington” (band) this, or like I said, I saw him perform both on the stage and in the apartment where they lived. And just out, well, basically part of Boston, Chelsea (city across the Mystic River from Boston). So, yeah. 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:10.000 That sounds like an amazing upbringing and experience. Just being immersed in music and the arts, even your parents— 00:23:10.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Oh, it was amazing. And my grandfather who played viola—well, both sets of grandparents lived in what would— could be described as tenements. So, tenements are like apartment buildings where there are a lot of people living. And really lower, lower middle class if that. And you know, when you're a little kid, you don't know about any of this stuff. So I would go to my grandparents' apartment and, in Chelsea, Massachusetts, and it was it was like fairy land because my grandmother would be yelling down the stairs to the downstairs neighbor, “Ida, bring up this, bring up that.” And we'd go off the in the balcony and play in an area that's like a back alley. We'd go in the back of a store that you could get to from the alley. And in the meantime, the apartment really only was a very small one, maybe two bedroom apartment. My grandparents, when I thought about it later, their bedroom was actually what should have been the dining room. But they, there wasn't enough room, right? So, they made their dining room into their bedroom. And, but again, it was such a lively, wonderful place. I mean, I loved it as a little kid. And it didn't occur to me that it was very inner city, very poor. But what a fun place to live. And just all the commotion and the music and the people everywhere. It was like a little kid's dream. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:31.000 Yeah. It sounds like a fairy land. And even though you said it's lower income, just being surrounded by music and the commotion. I want— 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Yeah, they even had a— when you came into the apartment, there was a very long corridor. And we used to— we had a plastic bowling set. And my cousins and I, and my brother, we'd always bowl (laughter) in the hallway. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.000 That's funny. And you made your own little bowling alley. That's really cool. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.000 Yeah. 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:13.000 What-- (laughter) For me, we just did hopscotch. I never thought to make a bowling alley. That's really fascinating. (Goldberg agrees) Do you have any other memories like that? What else? How else did you— did you convert any of the other rooms into anything else? Indoor aquarium? 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:28.000 Well, the bathroom there had a— I don't even know if it had a shower, but it had a big clawfoot tub I remember loving as a little kid, taking baths there. That was just so much fun. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000 I’ve only seen those like in movies. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:27:02.000 I know. And I'm very lucky cause I live— I was able, because of being, I was born in 1959. My parents were all first generation (American citizens). My grandparents were all immigrants. And they, because they were immigrants, they had what I would call kind of old country traditions and way of thinking. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Did they immigrate? Where did they immigrate from? 00:27:04.000 --> 00:28:20.000 Eastern Europe. All of my grandparents escaped before the Holocaust. And my father's family ended up in Chelsea in the Boston area. My mom's family ended up in New Bedford, which is also outside of Boston. And then my family did, just my father's side, part of the family came to Boston, part of the family went to Israel, part of the family went to Brazil. Interesting fun fact, family fun fact, there are musicians in each of the— like my Brazilian cousins, there's an opera singer and opera— you know, there's several musicians. My Israeli cousins I have a cousin named Gila Goldstein, who is absolutely a top-notch pianist. She's president of the (American) Liszt Society (promotes and preserves the legacy of Hungarian composer Franz Liszt). She's just an amazing, amazing pianist. And then, you know, you've got me as the saxophonist. But it's just kind of cool that somehow the genetics of our family on that side we have a lot of musicians. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:28.000 Yes. Seems the musician is linked to, I'm assuming that's the Jewish side of your family. 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.000 Yeah, yeah. Actually, all sides of my family are Jewish, so— 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.000 Okay. I didn't know. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.000 There you have it. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:29:06.000 There we go. (laughter) That's so fascinating that music transcends generations and continents. (Goldberg affirms) I wanted to hear more about your upbringing, and were you closely— my upbringing was outside of religion, like Judaism, Christianity, all of it. So, I'm very naive to all of it. Was, is the term secular? Or were you immersed in the traditions (of Judaism)? 00:29:06.000 --> 00:32:36.000 I am, at this point I'm pretty much a secular Jewishly identified human. Growing up— and again, I think this was because when you consider my grandparents were all immigrants escaping Eastern Europe because they were Jewish. My grandmother lived through pogroms (violent attempts to massacre ethnic minorities, particularly Jewish people) in Eastern Europe. My mother's mother. They had, they escaped really terrible things. Jewish identity was something that was really important to my parents, my grandparents. We went to temple, a conservative temple. So Jewish, you have: reform, conservative orthodox, ultra orthodox, and then there's like a whole bunch of stuff in between. We were conservative, which means kind of middle of the road. Early on our family kept kosher (foods conforming to the regulations of kashrut, Jewish dietary law), but then we didn't, many of my cousins still keep kosher. That's a food thing. Dietary laws. And I went to Hebrew school on like two days a week during the week. I went to Friday night services, Saturday morning services, and Sunday school. So I was essentially at the temple five days a week. It was something that was an identity for sure. And I really, I enjoyed Hebrew school. I went all the way through Hebrew high school. And part of that was because in the, in Jewish learning, one of the things that's really central is that a love of learning, and B. that there are multiple ways to interpret things. So I love that. You know, take a portion— there's a book called the Talmud (source of Jewish religious law and theology), which is commentary on what's in the Torah (first five books of the Hebrew Bible). And the Torah is like, you know, how you live by the rules. And so there can be, I don't know, eight or twelve commentaries on the same thing. And, you know, there's just a sense of, “Let's debate, let's discuss.” I kind of wish people did more of that now. And, you know, not about religious things, but just about everyday things. So, my Jewish upbringing really was, I think, foundational in enabling me to see things from multiple perspectives and really embrace that multiple perspectives exist on things. Over the years, my, I guess connection to organized religion has waned. You know, I'm not interested in going to temple at this point, but I really do love the culture. I love the underlying love of learning. You know? That's really part of Judaism. And I feel really proud to be someone of Jewish heritage. 00:32:36.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Yeah, that makes sense. Because you mentioned the underlining love of learning and multiple perspectives, or approaches to that learning. And so with that, it makes sense that multiple people who are Jewish in your family then apply that through music. I want— interested— previously in our conversation and in music, you mentioned coding with music. Right. Right. Right. Right. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:09.066 Right. 00:33:09.066 --> 00:33:10.000 Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And I don't know how else to jump to that— 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000 Yeah. 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.000 So I'll just start there— 00:33:14.000 --> 00:35:10.000 So let me, I'll give you a little history on this cause yeah, you can find I've— people know about this story, so I will tell it. So, in 1985 in the world, there was a different world order. There was a Soviet Union, it had not broken up yet. And the United States. In the Soviet Union, there were a lot of people that wanted to leave, they wanted religious freedom, they wanted freedom of intellect, of thought, of culture. And the Soviet government was really coming down on people who wanted something other than what the Soviet, what the Soviet government wanted. So Jewish people were persecuted. Catholic people were persecuted ; Poets, artists, scientists, people who were thinking outside the box. There were some very famous scientists who were jailed. (Andrei) Sakharov (physicist and Novel Peace Prize laureate) is one of them, but— so it was a crazy time. There were a lot of human rights abuses going on. And if people wanted to leave the Soviet Union, specifically Jewish people, they could apply for a visa to leave, to immigrate. But in so doing, they would often lose their jobs, maybe get beaten up or their kids harassed or even put into jail as a disruptor. 00:35:10.000 --> 00:36:41.000 It also was the height of the Cold War. And it turns out, in hindsight it was a crazy time of real spies. Both in the US from Soviet Union, Soviet Union in— US people in the Soviet Union. And it was the heightened tensions of that time were phenomenal. But most people didn't know about the, those governmental heightened tensions. What we did know was one way to get information and to support Jewish people specifically— cause I was working with groups that supported Jewish, what were called Refuseniks, meaning that they had applied to leave and were refused— was to get tourist visas to go into the Soviet Union. Go visit Jewish refuseniks and bring them medicine or information about their field. If someone was an engineer, and now because they applied to leave, they might be an elevator operator. Bringing in like professional information that they couldn't get anymore. And taking out their stories, because there was a feeling at the time, and I think that's true today, is if people in the West (term often referring to nations in Western Europe, Northern America, and Australia) know about human rights abuses and the people, then they have some sort of opportunity to get out. Or for protection. 00:36:41.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Because if no one knows about you, it's easy for them, meaning a government— And I mean, what's going on today in our government is similar and very scary— but you could be disappeared. So having people know about you is really important. There was a reporter from Britain who worked for The Guardian (news)paper, who had gone into Soviet Union and somehow made his way to the state of Georgia. Georgia in the Soviet Union, okay? Not Georgia, here in the United States. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.000 Thank you for the clarity. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:41:09.000 And now it's a country, and found this group of amazing human rights activists. That included Jewish refuseniks, Catholic Refuseniks, dissidents, meaning people who were trying to change the government. Helsinki monitors. The Helsinki Accords were that everyone should be able to leave a country if they were being persecuted. So, there were all these people in Tbilisi, Georgia (capital city) who had gathered together. And the way they were trying to get their word out to the West was by playing music and holding concerts. And they called themselves The Phantom Orchestra. So once a couple of organizations in the West heard about this Phantom Orchestra, they thought, “Okay, let's see if we could find any musicians who would be,” in my words, “crazy enough to go in and meet with them.” Because going in, there was a certain risk that you could get harassed or, hardly anyone ever got arrested, but deported. And the reason to go in to meet them would be to bring them support, you know, just support people to people ; to take their stories out, to find out more about them. There was a group in Boston that was aligned with Amnesty International (an international non-governmental organization that supports human rights), which is a famous group that works on behalf of people who are, have been victims of human rights abuses. And the group in Boston was called Action for Soviet Jewry. So, people who worked on behalf of Jews, Jewish people in the Soviet Union who were refuseniks or had been jailed, this or that. They approached Hankus, who I mentioned earlier, and said, “We'd like to send in a small ensemble of musicians to go meet with these folks. Would you be game?” And Hankus right away was game. And then he thought, “Merryl probably would be really interested”. So he approached me and I thought, “Heck yeah, I'm in.” And then we needed a singer and someone who played like guitar and mandolin. The singer's name is Rosalie Gerut, and the guitarist is Jeff Warschauer. And we all played together in Boston. And long story short, we— the four of us agreed to go in, but it had to be on the sly. We couldn't tell anybody what we were doing because it, you couldn't go in on, especially on a tourist visa and go visit people. It had to be done in secret. Moreso you couldn't go in and have refusenik's names or addresses or phone numbers written down, because if upon arrival they were discovered you'd be deported right away. They would know that you weren't ordinary tourists. And so we were, we got visas, we got tourist visas, and of course we brought in instruments with us so we could play. Which is already a little bit of a, you know, anomaly cause tourists often don't come in with musical instruments, right. But we were a small ensemble and, we said, “Well, we always travel with our instruments cause we always rehearse.” So we had to develop a secret code so we could write down people's information, write down questions we needed to ask, be able to take out stories in code. And so I developed a secret code written in music notes. 00:41:09.000 --> 00:43:12.000 And what was really amazing was we arrived in Moscow (capital and largest city of the Soviet Union, now Russia), and maybe they had gotten some tip off that we were coming and wanted to meet people. Or maybe our instruments gave us away. But right at arrivals in Moscow, we all were searched thoroughly. I mean, just crazy. Opened up everything in our suitcases and went through my music ; page by page by page, but then handed it back. That was score one for our ability to fight the KGB (Committee for State Security of the Soviet Union that succeeded secret police) or be in competition with the KGB. Of course, then we ended up being interrogated. And that part was pretty scary. Ultimately, we made it from Moscow to Tbilisi. And by hook or by crook, we did end up meeting with the Phantom Orchestra and performing with them in an apartment, not in a (concert) hall. And orchestra really wasn't the right word. It was more like a ragtag group of musicians. And they told us their stories and we wrote them and we recoded it back in music so we could take it out with us. And these were stories of how people's lives were upended and how much like sadly what's going on right now in our country. People were taken off the street, locked up, put in jails just because of their activism for wanting to buck the system. And just asked to leave the country or for wanting to monitor human rights. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:45:34.000 So, I will say two things. The people we met were phenomenally courageous human beings. And two, playing music together was how I learned that even under the harshest of circumstances, one can find freedom, freedom in your mind. And that's freedom over anyone who is either jailing you or harassing you. You have that power to be free in your brain. No matter what happens. So, during the course of that trip, we were interrogated, harassed, at one point told we— the KGB told us they couldn't guarantee our safety. We told this to the people we were meeting who gave us advice and said, “Look, it might, you might end up getting arrested,” which ultimately we did. “Keep in mind, you are not the first to be arrested.” You know, “you are part of a whole group of people. Know that. Two, play music even if you're just singing together cause that will give you respite. Three, remember that because you're Americans, it's unlikely they will keep you for a very long time.” You know, “You'll be some kind of bargaining chip for something, but you'll get out.” And ultimately we were put under house arrest. The, probably the, well, by the time we were put under house arrest, we had become emboldened because the people we met were so strong and capable and very laser centered in what they knew they needed and wanted with regard to the rights of humanity. So we started talking back to KGB and we're crazily bold in hindsight. The only time that, well, there were a number of times that were scary. Interrogations were scary. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:37.000 I can imagine. 00:45:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000 Yeah. (laughter). Yeah. And at two times they put us, they separated Rosalie and I, put— I mean, separated Rosalie and I from Hankus and Jeff, put us in cars. Rosalie and I were in one car, Jeff and Hankus were in another car. There were KGB car in front of us, KGB car in back of us. We didn't have our passports. They took those away. I don't even think we had our luggage. I know we didn't have our luggage in at least one circumstance. Drove us for hours. At that point, I thought, “Oh God, they really are gonna lock us up, like in a bad prison.” Ultimately they didn't, they put us in a dormitory. But those tactics were meant to scare us. But I do remember having an epiphany at one point, especially in the very long car ride, thinking, “Okay, whatever happens, I can handle this. It's gonna be okay.” So end of story, we were deported. We ended up in Sweden and we ended up back in the United States. We worked with not only Jewish organizations, but with Catholic charities. We worked with our senator, who was Ted Kennedy (lawyer and Massachusetts Senator from 1962 to 2009) at the time. And we also worked on the Hill (Capitol Hill, home to Congress, the Supreme Court, and other federal institutions) in Washington, DC with many members of Congress and many members of the Senate. And ultimately, when (Ronald) Reagan (US President from 1981 to 1989) and (Mikhail) Gorbachev (Soviet Union leader from 1985 to 1991) had their summit, human rights was on the top of Ronald Reagan's list (Reykjavík Summit October 11th and 12th, 1986). And many of the people that we had met were actually named on lists that Reagan brought to Gorbachev. So ultimately, many of the people that we met with were freed and let, able to lead the Soviet Union. Some people disappeared into wherever, and we're not sure what happened to some people. But the people who really wanted to get out ended up being able to get out. So it was a real life changing experience, I can tell you that. 00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Yeah. It's amazing to know that you were able to help other people get freed from that kind of persecution. I love what you were saying about freedom in the mind, and you learning that, and you having that epiphany in the car. I'm just curious more— I'm curious to hear more about that concept and your like— 00:48:17.000 --> 00:50:30.000 Yeah, so another like really good example of this, I don't, I didn't know it at the time, but I learned it afterwards. So, during the Civil Rights Movement here in the United States, it was very common when African American activists were being picked up and put in paddy wagons for their outspokenness and for their— look for their fight, for just human rights as people. Often when they were arrested, they would break out in song. And that is so powerful because it's taking power, it's taking space. That song, singing together, is saying, “You might have us, locked up, or you might have us in handcuffs, you might have us in paddy wagons, but we are still strong. And our music gives us that strength. And you can never take that away from us. You can lock us up, you can do whatever you want, but you can't take away: our sense of what is right, our power, and our work to achieve civil rights.” So I think music, music and sports, or chess, many of these things give people not only pleasure and entertainment but give you the tools to under harsh circumstances ; whether they're something that happens with your family that's just unfortunate or something that happens in school, or kids who get bullied. The arts can be that retreat to center yourself and empower yourself and give you confidence to be able to make it through things. 00:50:30.000 --> 00:51:02.000 Right. And it makes sense that then you apply that to your work here with ART=OPPORTUNITY and Center ARTES. Giving people—reassuring freedom in the mind, and your ability to create art is—you can use those tools elsewhere. I love hearing how people can apply creativity in the real world. So how do you help students? How do you remind students of that? 00:51:02.000 --> 00:52:52.000 You know, it's by doing. So all my classes and all of our professional development workshops, whether for students or teachers or administrators or staff, all of them are hands-on, where we give people things to do. So I'll give you a little example. One of my favorite things is— I'll give it not a music example, a drawing example. drawing from the inside out. Let's say you have, I'll give you a shell and I won't tell you where it is. Oh, I can make it a music example too. But I'll give you the shell example. I'll have my students draw a shell, like, but in a fun way, like either upside down or from the middle and draw out. And while they're drawing, I ask them two questions, “One, what do you notice and what do you wonder?” When they're drawing the shell, they notice, “Oh, it has different colors, it has stripes, it has ridges, it has a little hole in it, it's chipped. It's got white on the inside and gray on the outside, or some of it looks iridescent.” And then they're noticing all these things. And then I ask them, “What do you wonder?” Well, “Where did the shell come from? Why does it have colors? Like, how the heck does it— Why does this, shell have these colors and that shell has different colors, and how come they're ridges.” And, “Did something live in this shell? Did something eat the thing that was living in the shell. Was the shell always this size? How did it get to be this size?” So, this little tiny exercise sparks curiosity, and curiosity is the bottom line of learning. 00:52:52.000 --> 00:55:16.000 You know, if you're curious about something— and if kids in schools can become curious and have all these questions, your job as a teacher is to just then guide them to find out all the answers. In music, what I'll do, like I play my saxophone all the time when I do keynotes, and I'll do the same thing. I'll play a tune. It's usually a klezmer tune. I usually play a very simple klezmer tune where if I can get an accompanist on guitar or piano, it has only two chords. Very easy to play. And the piece actually sounds like this. (Goldberg vocalizes tune) Anyways, it keeps— it goes on. And I ask people to, you know, anyone from little kids to senior citizen, “What do you notice?” And then, “What do you wonder when you hear the music?” And what they notice, they notice, “Oh, it has a beat. Oh, I'm music— I'm moving.” They notice a, that it has sounds like maybe something— little kids will always say, “Oh, it sounds like something from Aladdin. Or maybe a snake charmer, or—” they notice so many things. And then when I ask 'em, “What do they wonder?” They're like, “How did you learn to play that tune? Where is it from? Does it have a name? What is it really about?” And in fact, the music has just, again, sparked so much curiosity within that little tiny kernel (central or essential part) of a five minute exercise of, “What do you notice, what do you wonder?” They've hit on, okay: culture, history, geography, how people learn to play. It’s just so, it's so rich. And so, yes, for me, engaging and getting people to understand about the power of the arts and learning is all about by engaging them in some kind of exercise. 00:55:16.000 --> 00:57:39.000 And then one of the really cool things is every exercise is just a kernel. So, if you go back to the shells, you can look at the kids, or teachers, what they notice and what they wonder, what they've written down. Ask them to circle five words and then create a poem out of it, and then create a two person poem out of it, or create a song, or you can always do more. You can always learn more from what has been sparked. Now the importance of that is: creativity is always gonna be the thing that moves us forward, right? So, knowing a lot of facts is good, and knowing history is really good. Cause we need the foundations and we can go to Google or whatever and find things out very quickly these days. Don't even have to look it up. But being creative, being imaginative, being reflective, seeing what other people do and appreciating it, those are the skills that arts can teach us that I find just so phenomenal. And the arts bring us together in ways where we see each other in different lights. If this group makes this poem or acts something out in this way, this group is like, “Oh, wow, I had never thought about that. Or I never knew that kid could act or could sing or, wow.” And so one of the byproducts of the arts is also this opportunity to embrace compassion and empathy. And, oh my God, if there's one thing in this world that we've got to have if we're gonna survive as a civilization, is empathy. And so, I get really worried when I hear some people in government or not government, poo-pooing the notion of empathy or compassion. 00:57:39.000 --> 00:59:27.000 And we've got to, got to place empathy, compassion, mindfulness as central to, in my opinion, to who we are as people and how we learn. And that’s why I really do love the arts. By the way, I also am a boxer. I've been boxing for years, and I love it. It's so much like music. Jab, jab, cross, uppercut, uppercut (motions as demonstration) is very much rhythmic. But one of the things if you watch a boxing match is it's not only like music in terms of the actual rhythm of the punches, but in a boxing match itself it's very much like jazz. It's all improvisation because you have to be so connected with your opponent that you are paying close attention. And if they do one thing, you do another thing. So it's playing off of each other, playing off of each other. And, the actual punching aside, at the end of a boxing match, almost always, you see the boxers embrace each other. That's because it's been such a intimate dance with each other, and they're very appreciative of each other. Before a fight, they're gonna be talking whatever, because that's what their mindset is. But when you're actually engaged in something like that in boxing, it really is a very close—you're so connected to that person that it's not surprising to me to see that at the end of matches, more often than not, folks embracing each other. 00:59:27.000 --> 01:00:22.000 Thank you for explaining that cause I've never been into the boxing, or whatever. So, the comparison of boxing— I've heard the dance (comparison), but like I still didn't understand. I'm—yes, the, but specifically the jab, jab punches, like as rhythmic, that really clicked in my brain. And as you were saying—or I was thinking this earlier, a lot of what I've learned in most of my favorite classes as a student, they've stuck from music that either a guest has come into my class and performed. Or just remembered that in connection to a lesson. Or it's a movie. So, can you talk more about STEAM and how you integrate art with other professions that maybe some people respect a little more, to be blunt? 01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:24.000 Oh, like, give me a profession. 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.000 So— 01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:31.000 Oh, go ahead. Nevermind. I, well no, you give me a profession actually, and then I can tell you. 01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:42.000 Yeah. Cause my, in my brain, it's like, as a history major, I understand I'm not gonna be making as much money as like an engineer, let's say. So, engineering, I guess. 01:00:42.000 --> 01:03:31.000 Engineering. Great. Okay. Indeed, we actually did a little study over at ViaSat (communications company), which is a huge—has a lot of engineers. So, they’re high tech company, very into the internet. And if you've been on an airplane, it's pretty much ViaSat’s, whatever it is. Their systems that run the internet on airplanes. Okay, I had heard that Qualcomm (software and wireless technology company) and Boeing (aircraft manufacturer) and ViaSat were hiring people who had arts backgrounds because they really wanted engineers, especially people that worked there, who could: think outside the box, work well with each other, have the ability to reflect, and also be super disciplined, right? So, they were purposefully hiring people who had arts backgrounds, cause they figured people in the arts, especially in music, or any of the arts, can think outside the box. Musicians have to work well with each other, have to be able to—in a band you can't be just playing the trombone and the trumpet player playing something different. You have to work together in order to make a nice piece of music. So, we did a study and we found out that indeed most of the engineers at ViaSat had arts in their background. And then we went a step further and we asked, “Okay, how did the arts make a difference in what you're doing?” And some of the engineers said, “It helped me think about electrical kind of connections in ways that were out of the box.” So, “My music background gave me the ability to think in different ways and see things from different angles. It helped me work with others, especially people I didn't like. Because in a music band, I had to work with people I didn't like in order to make music, right? Helped me—" And so you can see those are just two examples of that. We actually have more written about that study on the art— It's, I think the Center ARTES (online) site. We have our research studies, or the ART=OPPORTUNITY. If you go into research, we have those studies. But let me give you a couple of other examples. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:04:52.000 Medical students at UCSD right here are required to take visual arts classes because the visual arts, learning how to see closely, helps them understand and how to diagnose things better. It gives them those skills of looking at things more deeply and from different angles. An ophthalmologist I met with just like within the last month, sent me a study where they had a first, like first year ophthalmology students, so people who studied the eyes, and they broke them into two groups. One group of students, about thirty of them, had six lessons in how to look at art. And the other group didn't have the lessons at all. And then they were tested on the things that they could see in the eye, because they're studying to be eye doctors, right? The students who had the art classes outperformed the students that were in the control group. Like crazy. In a significant manner. It shows you studying the arts can absolutely then transfer over to other areas. 01:04:52.000 --> 01:06:57.000 NYPD, New York Police Department, has their recruits watch theater. And one of the theater pieces that they have done is a piece by Janet (Leola Langhart) Cohen (American author and journalist), written as a fictional version of Emmett Till and Anne Frank (titled “Anne and Emmett”). Emmett Till was a young boy who was murdered (during the) Civil Rights era (in 1955), black young man. And Anne Frank was murdered in the—she died in (1945) a concentration camp during the Holocaust. And Janet Cohen wrote this amazing play, which is not depressing it actually is in some ways uplifting, of the two of them having a conversation with each other. And the reason why NYPD in the past has used this play is because they want their recruits to be empathetic to the people that they serve, and they really understand the power of theater as a way to teach about empathy. So that's another example. Also in New York, the public library has this really cool program for new citizens on teaching how to learn history. So this is a really cool thing. They do it all through famous paintings in American history. And what they found is because people are attaching what they're learning to this really cool visual, a famous painting, they remember the history lessons so much better and do so much better on the test, the citizenship tests. Those are just a couple of examples, in real life, how the arts make it a real difference in learning. 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:24.000 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Just from a professor who actually implements some of these things here, and obviously beyond as you mentioned earlier, it's— I've always valued the, being immersed in arts and classes, so thank you for for doing that. I feel like it's probably your responsibility that I've gotten some of the classes I've gotten. 01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:24.956 Aw, thanks. 01:07:24.956 --> 01:07:46.000 Yeah, of course. (brief interruption in recording) Okay. So earlier you were mentioning music was how you got people's stories out. I was, I'm particularly want to ask about why was it so important to get people's stories out? Like what about their stories mattered? 01:07:46.000 --> 01:10:59.000 Yeah. So to get the stories out meant that people in the West could then use those stories as a way to highlight the human rights abuses that were going on. And by highlighting it, it was harder for the Soviets then to imprison or to disappear people, because if people in the west knew about you, you would have a much better possibility of actually getting a visa to leave. If people didn't know about you, it would be easy to, say, “Eh,” for the Soviets to do whatever they wanted. I, you know, at the time we're doing this, oral history is at, you know, a crazy point in American history with Trump being the president only for a couple months. And already there's been people who have disappeared or been taken off the street or out of classroom, a classroom. And so what we found, even in our time in history, keeping those people's names and what happened to them front and center means that there's less of a possibility of something horrible happening to them. In the case of a family from New York, it was a mom and three kids, and they were actually taken. I'm not sure if it was from their home or for, from school, but the school principal and the whole town, in this small town in New York, were so upset by this and so distraught. And these were folks who were in the process of having all of their paperwork correct. Had done nothing wrong. Well, the town spoke up in a way that was significant, and as of today, they're back in their homes. And so there is real power in making sure that others, or people in power are held to account. And that people, things don't happen to people without justification. Because when that happens, we really, as a people, are in a terrible, horrible place. Especially for the people who are taken and have done absolutely nothing wrong. So again, you've caught me at this, this moment in history where I see things that happened in the former Soviet Union or perhaps are happening in Russia today, happening here in the United States. It's just unconscionable. So, it makes what we did in my experiences, even more important as a story today. 01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:24.000 Absolutely. Do you think if you had spoken to yourself, as you were developing this code in which we talked about, would you have thought that Merryl would then be sitting in this room, in the state that this country is in? 01:11:24.000 --> 01:13:24.000 No. Never. And I think most people probably feel that way. My guess is even folks who supported Trump, or Republicans or whatever, I don't think anybody expected things to be as cuckoo, crazy, upside down, scary as they are in this particular moment. And I don't think, it makes me really wonder why, especially in the House of Representatives or the Senators, why it's taking so long for people to stand up. Especially when people's rights are jeopardized. We should be better than that. We should know better than that. Bullies should never win. If it takes even, you know, one person to one person or movements to really just crush things that shouldn't happen, then we have to rise up. I really feel that. And I also feel like in moments like this where people might feel so frightened or scared, maybe some people like what's going on, but I doubt it. It's also important not to get so caught up in everything that you can't find moments of joy. And that's where the arts also help us, or getting out of our heads. Or, for me, playing music and going to my boxing classes are moments where I'm not thinking about anything else. And boy, is that a self-resourcing tool. 01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Right. Earlier you mentioned art as an escape, but then in the same breath, an escape from maybe awful times, but also in that escape you're learning tools or just learning different, gathering different skills that you can use elsewhere. 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Yeah, for sure. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:14:22.000 Yeah. well thank you again for sharing about music and how it can be applied to activism. I want to now talk about how you—sorry. Where that originates from. Earlier you were mentioning growing up and having activism in your family, or— 01:14:22.000 --> 01:17:23.000 Yeah. So, I think many people of my age who are Jewish, most likely their grandparents immigrated. So they came from very bad situations where they had to escape either the Holocaust or pogroms which were in Czarist Russia (Imperial Russia 1547 to 1917) or other countries where Jewish people were just— like in “Fiddler on the Roof,” come in and just destroy everything or it is just terrible. So when people came here, I think there was a sense of like, never again. And certainly after the Holocaust, “Never forget, never again” (a phrase that encourages people to denounce the Holocaust and other genocides) is something that's very important. But growing up, my parents were very attuned to that, a just society where people have opportunities. And so as a kid, my mom was very active in starting a chapter of the League of Women Voters in Massachusetts, which was, today, League of Women Voters is so important. It gives information to the public on different voting issues, and candidates. It’s a nonpartisan group. As a little kid, my mom would have me parade around our little town just outside of Boston. My dad put a, made a sandwich board and it said, “Follow me to register to vote.” So I remember those things. And then I grew up in the sixties. I was young in the sixties. I was born in 1959. During that time, we had the Vietnam War, and a lot of people were protesting against the Vietnam War. And my family, along with many, many other families in our little community joined up with the Unitarian Church (a sect of Christianity), who was very active in anti-Vietnam protests. And so that was part of my upbringing as well. And through Jewish groups, we also were always learning and figuring out issues of social justice. It was baked into my childhood, there's no question about it. That from a very early age, being someone who is active in society and was doing things to make a difference in a better world was part of, part of who I was. I, there was no escaping it, not that I would want to escape it— (Goldberg laughs) 01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:28.000 Right. Do you think it's ever too late to become— 01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:29.000 Never. 01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:30.000 Engaged? 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:32.000 Never too late to become engaged. 01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:35.000 How does one start? 01:17:35.000 --> 01:18:08.000 I think by first just understanding that there are multiple sides to any picture. There are— it's really important to understand context and to learn and be curious, and always question things. So, especially now, just cause you see something on the internet doesn't mean it's true. As convincing as it may seem— 01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:09.000 With AI (artificial intelligence). 01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:11.000 And with AI, that— (overlapping dialogue) 01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:12.000 Oh, sorry, you were saying that-- 01:18:12.000 --> 01:20:40.000 Yeah, no, that's really, I mean— my daughter, who's twenty-six, uses AI all the time. And she's discerning. But yeah, you gotta really question things, you know? But it's really important to look at things from multiple lenses and to always keep a lens of fairness, of equity, of background. It's understanding that not everyone has had the same opportunity as other people, and that's no fault of their own. And I think one thing that's really lost in a lot of what's going on right now is again, a lack of caring. It matters that people are losing their jobs. It matters that someone who's doing research in pediatric cancer is able to continue doing that research. The lack of empathy in our society right now, or maybe not our society, but in our leaders, in the people who are in power, is shocking. And it is never too late for people to stand up. It's never too late to keep trying. It's never too late to vote people out. It's never too late to do something small or to do something big. What is a lesson that I've learned is that silence is being complicit. And so, we all have a role in our joint community of human beings to not be silent when we see something. I think the arts have given me more of that power. 01:20:40.000 --> 01:23:48.000 And of course, some of my experiences and my, the context of my background, some of the foundational things I learned as a kid give you, gave me— my mom went on to run for our local what was it, public authority, where you make decisions on like public housing and that kind of stuff. And I helped her campaign, and it was a really hard campaign because people used horrible anti-Semitic language, calling my mom a dirty Jew or this or that. Like out loud, right? And she ultimately lost her election. But then the governor, who was governor Michael Dukakis at the time, there was a opening on that same authority, and he appointed her. And I'll never forget, it's, even in that awful kind of context of what we experience, there was a upside. And there was some justice. But boy, all of that is a learning thing. It's people who are Jewish, people who are Muslim, people who are in minority groups aside from religions have to learn these lessons, sadly over and over. And yeah, it's not easy. On the other hand, there is a lot of power in understanding who you are and the camaraderie of others. In this particular moment, and this is again just saying, this is at this moment in happens with this interview, the weaponization of antisemitism or the cause of the Palestinian people is just horrible. And that's something that is, again, so important for people to understand the nuances. And not to use people against other people. I mean, human beings in Gaza who don't have food are not pawns of governments. They're human beings. People who are coming down on Jewish people, we are not pawns. There's good people, bad people, everything in between everywhere. We have to learn to work together and not to use people for other causes. I don't know. I'm a little bit on my high horse there, so (laughter). 01:23:48.000 --> 01:24:15.000 No, I agree and specifically with your, “We are not pawns.” We're human beings, and understanding humans with stories. So, thank you so much for sharing your story. I hope you're able to use this interview even just to share with your family. I'm sure they'd appreciate hearing all these stories to preserve them. 01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:25.000 Thanks. You know what, to bring it back around, I hadn't really thought about, but you're absolutely right. And what we did with, in the Soviet Union was bring out people's stories. 01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:29.000 Exactly. And just quickly, one last question. 01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:30.000 Yeah. 01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:43.000 The music and the code that you brought back, I'm assuming it was preserved, or their stories preserved, or like how does— because this interview will be preserved with Special Collections, so yeah, just curious. 01:24:43.000 --> 01:27:28.000 Yeah. So a couple of things. My, the code, we kept the code secret for almost thirty years. And it has come to light, and it came to light very serendipitously. I was at a dinner with someone I had never met, guy named Chuck Davis (runs the cybersecurity blog "Between the Hacks") and his wife, they were in cybersecurity. I had no idea about cybersecurity. He's telling me, “Oh, well cybersecurity, we do this, we keep this safe, blah, blah, blah.” And I said, “Well, it, this isn’t cybersecurity, but I've got a story.” And I told him the whole Soviet story, and he was like, “Oh my God.” And he immediately connected with people in cybersecurity. They have this ginormous conference once a year, and it's called RSA (RSA Security LLC, formed in 1982, is a computer and cybersecurity company that was named for co-founders Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir, and Leonard Adleman). And I don't remember what that stands for, but it's a cybersecurity conference. And I ended up being a keynote, and then I ended up becoming friends and doing a little work for the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency for the United States. Because the head of the, it's called CISA, at the time, her name is Jen Easterly, she obviously left when the government changed, she recognized also the power of the arts. And when you look, when you think about cybersecurity, at a very little level, it is, if you can distill it down, it's all about stopping very creative bad guys from doing very bad things. Well, how do you stop or get ahead of bad guys or gals doing bad things? You have to be more creative. You have to work well with each other. You have to think outside the box. And again, the arts give you those skills. That's, I've become very active in that world. But my music and my story has been on display at the NSA, National Security Agency, in (Wahington) DC at a cryptological museum. That's a national museum. It's at— on display in LA (Los Angeles) currently at Wende Museum, which is a Cold War museum. W-E-N-D-E, which is a fabulous museum in LA. And actually, in summer 2026, there'll be a book coming out on my Soviet experience co-authored with Vince Houghton, who is the director of the National Cryptological Museum for the NSA. So, we are co-authoring a book that will be published by HarperCollins (one of the largest English language publishing companies). So, yeah, pretty cool stuff. 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:34.000 That's super exciting. Is it specifically based on your experience going to Moscow? Or— 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:36.000 Yep. The whole Phantom Orchestra story. 01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:37.000 Okay. Right. 01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:59.000 And it includes background of what was going on at the time, which was how dangerous it actually was over there, because of the whole real spies. I mean, we were like little tiny spies, but not government seekers, nothing. But the real spies. It was the height of dangerous activity. 01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:12.000 Right. I consider you a spy, or like at least a story smuggler. Or something like that (Goldberg laughs and affirms) Because you were definitely—An espionage artist or something. 01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:14.000 Yeah. 01:28:14.000 --> 01:28:21.000 Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much for sharing your story. Yes, thank you. 01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:22.000 Well, thanks for having me. (overlapping dialogue) 01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:22.068 Of course. 01:28:22.068 --> 01:28:22.908 That was really great. 01:28:22.908 --> 01:28:23.908 Yeah, thanks. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 Description An account of the resource Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-078 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Klezmer Conservatory Band Klezmer music Smuggling -- Soviet Union Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merryl Goldberg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aaron Williams Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Soviet Union Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Merryl Goldberg License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Activists and activism Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Jewish experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/263b2399055fdac2b7ee4b09862c9925.pdf c057803dbcbcd7c0815a75f8fc024020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goldberg, Merryl. Interview transcript, April 9, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. This oral history was created in partnership with the CSUSM History Department and made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merryl Goldberg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-09 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Klezmer Conservatory Band Klezmer music Smuggling -- Soviet Union Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Soviet Union Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Merryl Goldberg License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_transcript Activists and activism Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Jewish experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/35797804fc33e8d010236287b48c80c3.pdf 80e41cfd585b5a8d35eb1bdf0d1c6409 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lujan Bevacqua, Miget (Michael). Interview transcript 2024-07-12. Description An account of the resource Michael Lujan Bevacqua is a Chamorro educator, language teacher, and activist. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Guam and in California, the pivotal relationship with his grandparents and his path toward embracing his heritage and community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-07-12 Subject The topic of the resource Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Language revival Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Grandparents Education Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Hawaii Guam Atascadero (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevqacqua License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2025-11-21_transcript Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Chamorro language;imperialism;language revitalization OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Lujan Bevacqua, Miget (Michael). Interview July 12, 2024. SC027-089 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Chamorro language ; Chamorro culture ; Chamorro history ; language revitalization ; Spanish colonization ; Japanese colonization ; United States/American colonization ; grandparents ; education Chamorro language ; imperialism ; language revitalization Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua Jennifer Ho Moving image LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f31815d4ea546e978b499adb5f085e06.mp4 Other video This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua, July 12th 2024, by Jennifer Ho, Communities and Cultures Archivist, university Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 148 Constantly Moving Miget discusses how his early childhood was filled with moving form place to place following his father's career for the US military and US State Department. Swaziland ; Guam ; United States ; Military ; Moving 0 530 Racism in Central California Miget talks about growing up in Atasacdero, CA and the racism that he encountered while going to highschool. Racism ; Chamorro ; white ; Latino ; Atascadero--Calif. 0 906 Moving to Guam Miget talks about how it was moving to Guam to be with his grandparents after highschool. Guam ; University of Guam ; College ; education 0 1332 Connecting with His Grandmother and Chamorro Culture Miget talks about how his attitude towards learning the Chamorro language changed when he took the time to sti down with his Grandmother and practice. Language revitalization ; Chamorro culture ; Imperialism ; US policy 0 1846 Connecting with His Grandfather Miget talks about how his Grandfather was always hesitant to speak Chamorro with him and would not teach Miget his blacksmithing. Miget's Grandfather's views began to shift as he saw how dedicated to the Chamorro language and culture Miget was becoming. Trauma ; Japanese occupation ; WWII ; US occupation ; Imperialism 0 2316 Chamorro Language Classes Miget discusses how he started teaching Chamorro Language lessons in smoothie shops and coffee shops. Language revitalization ; Chamorro language ; Chamorro culture 0 2739 Creating a Chamorro Immersion Program with June and Clarissa Miget talks about how some of his students, June Pangolin and Clarissa Mendiola, approached him with the idea of creating a Chamorro immersion program. Prugraman Sinipok ; Chamorro language ; Language revitalization ; Language immersion 0 3235 Escaping the States Miget talks about how he first moved to Guam to escape the racism and feelings of being lost or not fitting in in the United States. Racism ; Cultural identity ; Education ; California 0 3666 Cultural Influences Miget talks about how Johnny Sablan, a Chamorro musician and song writer, serves as an inspiration to him to continue his language revitalization journey. Johnny Sablan ; Chamorro music ; Chamorro culture 0 4001 What is Your Vision of the Future for Chamorro Language? Miget talks about his children and the hopes and dreams he has for Chamorro culture and language in the future. Children ; Cultural identity ; Chamorro culture ; Language revitaliztion 0 Oral history Michael Lujan Bevacqua is a Chamorro educator, language teacher, and activist. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Guam and in California, the pivotal relationship with his grandparents and his path toward embracing his heritage and community. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.155 --> 00:00:14.585 Okay, 00:00:14.585 --> 00:00:19.195 I'm, a little bit under the weather, but, feeling very good otherwise. 00:00:19.195 --> 00:00:30.585 Okay, good. Thanks for being here with me. I appreciate it. Okay, so I would like to start with your childhood. Tell me when and where you were born, and I'd love to hear about the people who raised you. 00:00:30.585 --> 00:02:28.425 Oh, yes. So I was born in the year 1980 on the island of Guam. My dad, his name's Robert Bevacqua. He, has his roots in New York, Italian American, with some German ancestry, the Bevacqua family. His father, participated in the liberation of Europe in World War II and was a career US, Air Force officer, and then retired to Hawaii after, the war. And then, so my dad spent his formative years growing up in Hawaii. My mother, was the daughter of, Joaquin Flores. My mother, Rita Luhan--Flores Luhan was the daughter of Joaquin Flores Luhan and Elizabeth de León Flores Luhan. And my great--my grandfather on my mother's side was a master blacksmith. He was a cultural, master in Guam, the last traditional, cultural, master of that type, meaning that, there used to be many blacksmiths on Guam, especially during the Spanish period in which most people survived, by living off the land, farming and so on. But after World War II and dramatic changes to life, nearly all of them did not pass on the knowledge to their children, their grandchildren, or take any apprentices. And so my grandfather was basically the youngest blacksmith before the war. He--when the Japanese invaded Guam in 1941, he was 21 years old, and he had learned blacksmithing from the age of nine from his father. And then he also learned how to weld, as a machinist from the US Navy. And so, so my mother, you know, so my, my mother's family had roots in Guam. My mother and father met in Hawaii, and, they stayed together for a number of years. They had, three children together, and then they got divorced. 00:02:28.425 --> 00:05:20.206 And so my upbringing was a lot of moving back and forth between California and Guam, sort of moving back and forth between families. And then the most fascinating phase of it was a year and a half, a two year stint, in which my dad worked for the US State Department in a US farming aid program in the 1980s. And so we did live, for less than two years, in the country of, in the southern African country of Swaziland. So I was just like five years old at that time, or a little--five or six years old. And so growing up, I don't feel like I had a particularly strong sense of my identity as a person from Guam, as a Chamorro person. Part of it was just moving around from different places. And then also part of it too was that my mother's generation and then my generation, we represented in many ways, sort of the impacts of Americanization policies, kind of put out there by the US Navy, which had taken Guam in 1898 via the Spanish American War. And so Chamorro's after World War II had kind of put into hyperdrive this push to Americanize themselves. To stop speaking their language, to sell their land, to jump into sort of the wage economy, to leave the island behind and move to the states where they could, you know, finally, touch what they could only see in JC Penny catalogs that came to the island. When I was growing up on Guam it was fascinating because the television--the ads and the shows that were shown on television were recorded on cassette tapes on the west Coast of the United States, and then they were mailed every single day to Guam. So you watched shows like Dallas or LA Law two weeks after they initially premiered in California and in the United States. And so--and then eventually this was kind of brought down to just one week, and then now you can kind of watch them because of, you know, satellite technology. You can watch them the day of and so on. But that feeling of growing up and like constantly being fed these ideas of the United States, like, especially through media, but then kind of always never being able to realize it or find it on the island. It definitely did--It definitely did a number on me, and I think a lot of others in my generation where there was this feeling like, you need to leave the island. You need to kind of forget being a Chamorro, forget Guam, you know, head out to the States. 00:05:20.206 --> 00:08:40.024 Like a case in point for that is growing up, there was always ads for a place called Raging Waters (water park in LA). And kids, my generation, like desperately wanted to go to Raging Waters. And it was ridiculous because Guam has amazing beaches and it has waterparks and water slides already. Why would there be this cachet about Raging Waters? But it is sort of this, this kind of, this lure of--this colonial lure. The United States kind of is up here, and then we're constantly striving to kind of reach it. And in--and what happens as a result is that we kind of devalue, we set aside, we throw away the things that we, the things that we have. And so when I was growing up, I didn't care much about being Chamorro. In fact, I was growing up in the 1980s at a time where what we refer to today as the Chamorro renaissance, which is kind of like the cultural awakening. The Chamorro empowerment movement, which, which, in the seventies was initially called like the Brown Power Movement after sort of similar movements in the United States. It was starting to take root, but it hadn't really reached the wider population. And so even, the word that we used to refer to ourselves was in flux. So the word that we had used, that we used for ourselves for hundreds of years, perhaps thousands of years, of course, Chamorro. But after the United States had defeated the Japanese and returned, there was this feeling that we needed to show loyalty to the United States, that a new era had begun. And so part of this came then that the leaders of the Chamorro people actually proposed renaming themselves. And so instead of Chamorro, which was difficult for Americans to comprehend, difficult for them to pronounce, which could confuse them, instead what they did is they actually had a poll--polls in the late 1940s in which they put it to villages to ask them, which of these options do you approve? And there was options like Guamerican Guamanian, Guamian, Guamese. And so one of the highest vote getters was Guamerican. But the US Navy at that time informed Chamorro leaders that you are not to call yourselves Guamericans, 'cause you're not Americans. And so the one of the--the next highest--then because of sort of the war and sort of ill feelings towards the Japanese, which had occupied the island brutally for 32 months, Guamese was absolutely out. So Guamanian is what stuck. And so for two generations, Chamorros referred to themselves in this era of Americanization, this blitz of Americanization. They referred to themselves as Guamanians. So when I was growing up, there was--the conversation was starting about whether we should keep calling ourselves Guamanians or whether we should go back to calling ourselves Chamorro. And so it was a very confusing time. 00:08:40.024 --> 00:12:20.625 But I wasn't as a young person, and even into my teens, I wasn't somebody who cared a lot about these issues because, I didn't have a strong sense of my own identity. My grandfather, I mentioned, had been a cultural master. He had trained a number of apprentices. But the fact that his grandchildren couldn't speak Chamorro or the fact that he saw us as being too Americanized and too Westernized meant that he wouldn't teach us. My grandmother always teased him saying well, (speaking in Chamorro) who raised them? We raised them. We raised them because we wanted Americans. And now we can't be angry at them. We wanted Americans, we got Americans. And now you complain when they don't--when they only wanna look out for themselves. So my grandparents were always a balance on each other. My grandfather sort of--but eventually I did develop sort of a strong connection to my cultural identity. But it happened in a number of sort of convoluted ways. And a lot of it actually happened out here in San-- not in San Diego, but here in California when I was away from the islands that, my mother, had married our dad and then divorced. She had moved us back to Guam to live with her parents. We were there for a few years. And then she had met somebody else when we were visiting her sister in California, in the Central Coast near Pismo Beach, Arroyo Grande. And so she just on a whim, because she had fallen in love, decided to move us all out there. Which was very jarring and shocking because for me, I wasn't, I didn't like love Guam. I wasn't gonna like die for Guam. But I also--California was not my home. And so when we came out to California, I liked it in some ways. I didn't like it in other ways. And this especially became, so as I moved into high school years, and I ended up in a school in a city, it's called Atascadero, which has a, like a mental, State hospital, and then it has an In-N-Out burger. And so it's--it was a very weird place for me because my mother had married a man who I had issues with at that time because they loved each other, but they also basically reinvented the Brady Bunch with us. My mom had three kids. Charles, my new stepdad had three kids, and we all lived in a three bedroom house. And then they had one more kid together. And so it was tough because, you know, for me, you know, the more that I was out in the States and as I was getting older, like I felt like I didn't belong in the States. And a lot of this I didn't share with my family because I didn't know who to talk to about this sort of thing. There was no other people from Guam in the area, just my mom, my siblings, and then my aunt who lived 40 miles south. But I would go to my--I would go to school, like the high school there, and I would get like hazed and harassed by like the white kids with the giant belt buckles and the big cowboy hats, because they saw me as being some sort of like weird Latino kid. But then I would also get harassed by Latino kids, 'cause they saw me as being like a fake Hispanic kid who wasn't like cholo enough, who wasn't--who was like fronting that I was white or--and so I was like-- it was--I was getting harassed and I was getting into fights, like on both sides. And it like really frustrated and angered me. 00:12:20.625 --> 00:15:16.945 And it eventually--like left where I like ran away from home. For a while and went to go stay with friends. And my mom, who, you know, who at that time I was very, I was not a good son. I was a very unpleasant sort of like 16-year-old to her. She was very patient. She was very loving. I don't think that she could really understand what I was feeling 'cause I think, you know, for her it's just, she's okay being out here in California. And I didn't nearly know how to talk about what I was feeling. I had no idea. But if something happened in my life though, that changed everything, was that once I-I decided to finish high school early. So I tested out of high school and then, because I hated going to high school. I went to like five different high schools in like a semester because I had trouble acclimating. I even went to like a, (coughs) excuse me--like a high school for juvenile delinquents because of my behavioral problems at that time. And so I decided to take the test in which you can just do your high school proficiency. So then I could just start going to college and then figure out what I wanted to do. And at that time, I was kinda lost. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but my, my grandparents who were in Guam, my mom's parents, you know, they were hearing about all the stuff I was going through. They had come out at one point because my grandfather had heart surgery at Stanford. And so they, they basically--my grandmother told me, just come stay with us. Just come home and stay with us. You can stay here. We have a car you can use. Just come home and stay with us. And so I just decided to. And it was--it took a few years, but eventually this is--this was a choice that completely changed my life because I wasn't --it--the homecoming wasn't like that I suddenly like got on my knees and I said, I am a Chamorro. I love my culture, I love my identity, I'm proud. But I came home and I found that I liked, even though I was, you know, I'm half Chamorro and I, you know, I'm a little bit lighter skinned than a lot of Chamorros and I can't speak Chamorro. I found that I was more comfortable and Guam than being out here. I found I liked that my family was out there, so I had roots. So if I felt like I didn't have a place to go, I still had a family. If I didn't know where I belonged, I had my grandparents and I could always kind of turn to them as like a, so even if I felt lost, I could just go hang out and, you know, just take my grandparents for a drive and take them to a funeral and then go eat lunch, you know, at a restaurant with them and just hang out with them. And then I felt like, like home. 00:15:16.945 --> 00:18:32.765 And so all of these experiences though, connecting with my grandparents really like, changed my perspective. Where I started to get more interested first in kind of the history of our people a little bit in the culture. I started to, at first when I started going to the University of Guam, I just wanted to like, take class in like English literature, I wanted to go into an MFA program for art. But towards the end of my undergrad, I started to take classes in like Guam history and Micronesian history, Pacific Island history. 'cause I realized like I wanna know more about this place that we come from. And so, like, my whole life changed when, in my last year at the University of Guam, I had to pick my foreign language requirement. And I had already taken one semester of Spanish at a community college here in California. And so I was trying to decide should I take another language or should I just take Spanish? And I was gonna take Spanish. I signed up for Spanish. And then when I got in there, it was so hard, like I realized that it had been like three years since I had taken Spanish and I had forgotten all the Spanish because the teacher just put on a telenovela and I had no idea what anybody was saying. And so I was at the breakfast table with my grandparents and my mom's oldest sister, my Auntie Eleanor. And then I was asking them, I was like, man, what language should I take? There's always this pressure to take Japanese 'cause that's for the longest time, that's the biggest bulk of the tourists to Guam, Japanese. There's all these language classes there. And so I was trying to figure out--and then my Auntie Eleanor, who was always very blunt, she said, that's a stupid question, Miget. Aren't you Chamorro? You should take Chamorro if you're Chamorro, you're not Spanish. You should take Chamorro. Aren't you a real Chamorro? And at that time, I did not feel like I was a real Chamorro at all, but I felt challenged. And so I said, okay, I'm gonna take Chamorro. And so I decided to, and I thought in my-- in sort of the smaller sort of more fragile parts of my brain, I thought I took Spanish. Chamorro was just like Spanish. We were colonized for a few hundred years. This should be easy, right? I was like the worst student in the class. I was so bad 'cause I had--a lot of the students in the class had grown up in Guam. So a lot of things they were already familiar with because in Guam, if you go to the public school, you take several years of Chamorro language. So things are very familiar. You may not be fluent, but you at least are familiar with certain songs, with certain, like pledges, certain words, vocabulary. I didn't know any of it. And so my professor, who is now a master storyteller in our culture, he teased me 'cause he knew my grandfather. And he's like, Miget, your grandfather is so very Chamorro and you are so very not Chamorro. You are a shame for your family. You bring shame to your family because I was so bad. And everyone was--and the thing is, like, I was--everyone knew me as being smart. 00:18:32.765 --> 00:19:40.635 I was always good in my classes. I was like the kid from California, like the Chamhaole Chamorro haole, the Chamorro white kid from California who talks a lot in the classes and does well, we can ask him for help with your homework. But in this class, I was so bad. And it was a very humbling experience. Some of the students who sat behind me who were pretty good in Chamorro, they would tease me. They would feed me answers and embarrass me. So there was a--there was a girl who I kind of had a crush on who sat on the other side of the class. And I would look at her sometimes and I would be like, man, Maria's so good at Chamorro and, but I'm so bad at Chamorro. I should get better at Chamorro than maybe Maria will like hang out with me or something like that. Because, you know, Maria, like, you know, she's learning to say the pray the Catholic prayers in Chamorro from her family, she's super Chamorro compared to me. And so the guys that sit behind me, they like whispered some stuff to me, and they told me to say this. And so after class, when I said it to her, it was very offensive. It's one of the most offensive things you can say in the Chamorro language, 00:19:40.635 --> 00:19:46.134 Oh no! 00:19:46.134 --> 00:19:48.868 that I said to her. And so she hasn't spoken to me since, but, 00:19:48.868 --> 00:19:49.000 You can't tell us what it is? 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:55.000 Oh, so the word is, Chada Nana-mu, so it means it's--you're your mother's eggs, as in you're your mother's vagina. 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:56.000 Oh dear... 00:19:56.000 --> 00:22:12.585 So it's like a, it's the equivalent of like Chamorro for 'motherfucker'. And so I didn't--I had no idea 'cause my grandparents spoke Chamorro to each other, but my grandmother was very religious and she did not allow any cursing in Chamorro in the house. So I didn't even know curse words in Chamorro. Everyone else knew at least the curse words. I didn't know that. And that was super embarrassing. But all of these experiences were important because then what I had to do is that I had to go and I had to ask my grandparents for help with my homework. And my grandfather said, no. You know, and my grandmother said, absolutely. My grandmother was very excited to help me. And so she would sit with me and sometimes she would walk me through the homework and sometimes she would just do my homework for me. And so after a few weeks, my professor would be like, Miget, why is it that your written Chamorro is so good, but your spoken Chamorro is still so bad? And I'd be like, oh, I'm just, I need time to prepare professor. I just need time to prepare and then I got it. And so my grandmother was like, she was loving it. And the more that I went through this, the more I realized that like, my grandparents spoke more to each other, but they did not speak it to their children. So part of the legacy of the 20th century when the United States came into Guam is that one of the earliest things that they proposed is that the Chamorro language be banned in public spaces. So it was banned for the most part in schools. Children were punished. You might have to drink castor oil If you drink--if you speak Chamorro. You might get slapped on the fingers with a ruler. You might have to wear a dunce cap. There was like jars akin to swear jars where you have to pay a fine if you're caught speaking Chamorro. And children were encouraged to report on each other too. So eventually some teachers, some principals, created English clubs in which Chamorro children wore badges that said, "Speak English", "English only." And then they went around finding children speaking Chamorro and then they turned them in to get them in trouble. 00:22:12.585 --> 00:24:30.825 And so this created like an atmosphere in which--my-- for people in my grandparents' generation, they could all speak Chamorro, but the idea of passing the language on to the next generation was fraught with, it was fraught with peril because the school system, the United States, all of these things, all these pressures had basically convinced you that while the language is good for you to speak to your parents, good to speak to your peers, you shouldn't be using it with your children. The language shouldn't go on. And so what we've seen since then is ever since World War II, the language just completely declines to the point now where 80% of the Chamorro people in the world cannot speak their language. Including in the Mariana's Islands and then out here. And so my--so I didn't know much of this, but, when I came to my grandmother, though, she was so eager to help me and what was beautiful about it is that I was your typical sort of 19 and 20-year-old. And I'm very upfront about it 'cause I think sometimes people can be very--sometimes people can be very idealized. I was very upfront--I'll be very upfront, like I was a 19 and 20-year-old who did not want to hang out with my grandparents all the time. I had a car, I had friends, I had other things I wanted to do. So sometimes if my grandmother said, Mike, can you take me to the store? I might make something up. So I didn't have to. Or if she said, can you take me to a funeral? I would say, oh, I have homework. And so I don't--you know, I am very real about that because I loved my grandmother, but I didn't have this strong connection to her yet. But learning Chamorro from her gave me like a very strong connection. Because the more I sat with her at the breakfast table and the dinner table, and the more that we talked and the more that she shared, the more I realized that actually I would much rather be sitting at that table with her than going to any club or any bar going and hanging out with friends. 00:24:30.825 --> 00:28:41.865 And so I decided after taking the first level of Chamorro, I took the second level of beginning Chamorro. And like the second class I was having fun. Like, I went above and beyond, you know, like we had an assignment where you had to like translate an English song in Chamorro. I worked with my grandma to translate a bunch of songs into Chamorro. So I was like, grandma, can you help me translate? "Hey Jude" (Hey Jude by The Beatles) my grandma's like, hafa enao "Hey Jude", what's, "Hey Jude", what's that? And I'm like, here, ni ta ekungok, let's listen to it. And then she listened to it and then we sat there for a while translating, "Hey Jude". And then eventually after we had the lyrics, you know, we sat there just singing it in Chamorro together. And it was so much fun. We translated "Ain't No Sunshine When She's Gone" (Ain't No Sunshine by Bill Withers) into Chamorro. And it was like glorious because I realized that my--like I had lived with my grandparents a lot. I had sat in the cars with them. I had sat next to them in churches I had sat with next to them at parties. This didn't mean I talked to them a lot. This didn't mean I knew a lot about them. But once I came to my grandmother and my grandfather and I started to ask them for help in Chamorro, suddenly my grandmother was telling me things and talking to me. And I loved it. I loved it so much. And so after I finished my two Chamorro classes, I asked my grandmother in my very broken Chamorro I said, (speaking Chamorro), can you talk to me (in) Chamorro? And my grandmother was so happy. And my grandmother then shared that when she had been a teacher before World War II in the 1930s, 1940s, she had had to punish Chamorro children for speaking the language. And she hated it. She thought it was wrong. She did not like it. But those were the rules. And the Americans created the rule and then Chamorro principles and other Chamorro teachers enforced those rules. And so she couldn't challenge it, but she was so happy. My grandmother was a quiet woman that never like very rarely ever protested or spoke out directly, but she always whispered that more people need to stand up for the Chamorro people. And so when I told her I wanted to--when I wanted to learn Chamorro, she said, more people need to learn Chamorro, this is good. My grandfather resisted at first, he did not want to speak to me in Chamorro. He would tease me. And my grandfather and me always had a tough relationship in which he was always about teasing. But this is a normal thing. People experienced different types of trauma and people have different ways of dealing with that trauma. My grandfather had been, beaten by the Japanese during World War II. He had almost been executed along with his father and siblings by the Japanese during World War II. After the war, he had become the first Chamorro US immigration Officer. And his experience, there was something that I did not fully appreciate, until years after years when he would talk more openly and grandma would talk about it. But he was constantly made to feel like he was less than because he didn't speak good English. And so he--his resistance to sort of me speaking Chamorro. So for example, my grandfather, when I would ask him to help me with my Chamorro for the first few years, he would resist it just out of sort of insecurity. Like, I can't help you. Like why you wanna learn this language, this language stupid. It's useless. You should learn a language that people want to speak. All sorts of stuff like that. And so--but I persisted and eventually it changed my grandfather too. And so, you know, one of the things that me learning Chamorro did is that, you know, getting connected to my grandparents is that then I started enjoying spending time with them. 00:28:41.865 --> 00:32:56.464 So my grandfather had a shop in which he displayed his tools and sold his blacksmithing tools at one of the night market Chamorro village areas. And, I had to go with him every Wednesday night to help sell him. I used to hate it now, I liked it. I got to help grandpa, I got to talk to people, and I got to practice my Chamorro. And then I showed more interest now in grandpa as a blacksmith too. I wanted to know about this part of our culture. And so I left, you know, when I, left in, 2004 to start my PhD out here in California, I was learning Chamorro. And I was very sad because I thought like I was gonna lose my Chamorro ability 'cause I was gonna be away from my grandparents. Because I had gotten into this flow of--with my grandparents, where like I would before if my grandma said, can you take me to a funeral this week? I would be like, oh, grandma,I have a paper. Do I can't? But now I would wake up and I'd be like, Hey grandma, is there a funeral this week that I can take you to? 'cause I was excited to go and hold her hand and meet her friends and get to practice our language and then just hear their stories and then write them down. And then, this is when I started to do like my own oral history research--is that my grandmother would go with me and then we would sit with people, and like spend the afternoon taking down their stories. And it was so much fun. And so when I went out to the States for my PhD, I thought that this was gonna kind of like ruin my Chamorro, but it actually made my-- it made me miss my grandparents a lot. I called them just about every day to keep practicing. And then within a few years I came back and my grandfather had completely changed his kind of attitude to the end of his life, my grandfather said that my Chamorro is not the same as his Chamorro. And he would--he could sometimes be very mean about that. But when I came back in 20--2008 and I was starting to work on my dissertation, like something had shifted in him because by that time that I was, you know, I was getting a name for myself as somebody who cared about culture and language and I was maybe gonna be like a professor or something. And he--and people were telling my grandfather, you should be proud Mr. Lujan of your grandson. He can speak Chamorro. And so he was starting to shift. And so in 2008, my youngest--my younger brother and me both came back to Guam. And I asked my grandfather, you know--to if he wanted our help in his blacksmith shop. And for the first time he said yes. And that was, that was very life changing because he had always said no before. And he had always done it in a way that is very reminiscent of sort of like cultural artisans in which they basically say, yes, I will teach you, but you have to show enough initiative. So like--so if you don't show that you care enough, then they're not really gonna teach you. They're gonna say they're willing to teach you. But if it's clear that you don't care enough. So like for example, if you--so some people that would ask my grandfather to teach them, he would say, come to my house at like 10 o'clock on a Sunday. And then if they showed up at 10 o'clock and they didn't bring any food with them, then he would say, nevermind, you know, if you're serious, you should come earlier. You should bring something to eat. 'cause we got to eat. And so you gotta show that you care and you have to show that you respect the person you're learning from. And so learning from my grandfather, that was very life changing. And it was frustrating at times. But part of it was that my grandfather's--sort of his insecurity, his trauma around English, his trauma dealing with racism, like, I don't know if he ever kind of dealt with it in any full way, but at least me speaking Chamorro gave him some comfort when we were in the shop. He could speak English if he wanted to, but he could also speak Chamorro. 00:32:56.464 --> 00:35:55.385 And sometimes he might tease my Chamorro, your Chamorro is not my Chamorro (speaking Chamorro). But we kept learning, making tools and it was, it was fun and it was cool. And all of this just solidified me as somebody who like cares about language, culture, history, people in like a very deep way. And so it-- and it's all because my grandparents, and it's all because of my connection to them. And it's all because I humbled myself to take the language from them, even if it may have taken a little while for my grandfather. And so I, I hold onto, (responding off camera) oh is it okay, okay. I hold onto to certain memories. 'cause now them, both of them have passed away. My grandmother passed away in 2013 and my grandfather passed away in 2015. And so I was so glad that my grandmother got to hear, one of her great-grandchildren speak Chamorro before she passed. And it was a very touching moment where we went over to visit and my oldest child who's now 17, you know, went to go, while I sat at the table with my grandfather and was talking, my oldest child who was just a young baby at that time, went over to go and sit with my grandmother in the living room. And you know, my grandmother came over after a few minutes and she put her hand on my shoulder and you know, she said to me, (speaking Chamorro) your daughter is speaking Chamorro. And I was like, yeah, (responding in Chamorro) because for me, every one of my children, from the moment they're born, I promised them (speaking Chamorro), I tell them, I will protect you with all of my life and then I will speak to you only in this language. And so my grandmother was like tearing and up and crying and she was rubbing my shoulder and I was like, (speaking Chamorro) grandma she's speaking Chamorro. And my grandmother was like, (responding in Chamorro) It's like a miracle, because after a while there's still thousands of Chamorro speakers, but they're all older. There's very few young Chamorro speakers. It's very rare to hear a baby speaking Chamorro or a child speaking Chamorro. And so I'm so glad that I got to have that moment with my grandmother to give her that moment and for me to have that moment. And even for my grandfather who towards the end of his life, he would not let go of blacksmithing even when he could no longer stand on his own. We would have to wheel him down into the shop and he was in a walker and we would've to hold him up so that he could work. 00:35:55.385 --> 00:39:31.835 And even when his eyesight started to go, he was still better at shaping blades and sharpening blades than I was. But towards the--in like the last few months of his life, he told me, you know, (speaking Chamorro) our Chamorro's not the same, but I'm happy that you're speaking Chamorro. And I think that was the best I was ever gonna get from Grandpa in terms of acknowledgement. But all of this though, basically made it so that what was something that was not important to me at all, the Chamorro language, has become something that is like supremely important to me--wanting to share.--having like that experience when I was trying to learn Chamorro in Guam in the early two thousands and having that experience of working with my grandmother and then trying to find elders to help me practice, but then realizing that fewer and fewer people can speak the language. So when I was like 21 years old, I would map out my day to always try to find the Chamorro speakers. When I go to a grocery store, who is the cashier that can speak Chamorro. And I go to them. You know, if I go to like a clinic, which is the nurse that can speak Chamorro, and then I'll try to talk to that person. And then--but realizing that for a lot of people, if they wanna learn Chamorro, it's gonna be really difficult just because they may encounter somebody--like they're--they may not have somebody who's as generous as like my grandmother. 'cause my grandmother was like the kindest soul ever. When I would like create atrocious Chamorro sentences, my grandmother would say, I wouldn't say it like that. Why don't you try saying it like this? My grandfather would just be like, it's wrong lachi' it's wrong. That's--or he would tease me, what's that? Tagalog? Is that Tagalog? He would just tease me. And most Chamorros, because of their own kind of insecurities around the language, especially being punished for speaking Chamorro, like they'll just tease. 'cause they don't want to deal with like the trauma involved. So what I did is, even though I got a degree in Ethnic Studies, which was not about language revitalization, I just decided to make language revitalization a big part of my life. I decided to make sure that my kids can speak Chamorro, but I also decided that I would help the community. And so for the past 15 years I've had free language classes in the community. At first they started off in a smoothie shop and then they started--and then they went to coffee shops. And sometimes like two people, three people would be there. I would put up a flyer or later put up just a note on Facebook saying, free Chamorro lessons, just come down. If somebody buys me a drink, I'll teach you Chamorro. And sometimes there'd be a few people, sometimes there'd be 20 people and it would ebb and flow. But for me it was just important because there's classes that you can take on Guam, you can sign up for a class in the University, but there needs to be more spaces than that. And so for me it was just like, come to a coffee shop and I'll give you--I'll just give you some lessons in Chamorro. 'cause some people don't have the money or don't have the time to go and sign up for like a full on class. 00:39:31.835 --> 00:42:00.853 And so I kept these language classes going on Guam for a very long time. And it was pretty interesting because over the years, so many people kind of filtered through them. People who were like poli-- eventual politicians, activists, radical scholars. People would come on island and just like hang out at them just to kind of see what is this language class here? And the classes would be all types because they would be basically based on like whatever people were feeling. So sometimes it would be handouts with like a formal lesson. And then sometimes if people had a little bit more fluency, we would just play games in Chamorro. So like we would play Clue in Chamorro or we would play Scrabble in Chamorro. And then, we even played Dungeons and Dragons in Chamorro. And so sometimes we would just listen to music and then translate songs. And so it would just change depending on whoever came and whoever was coming. And so it was a very--it was a wonderful organic community space for language learning. And then the pandemic happened. And at that point I had maybe like 20 or 30 people who are coming every Friday, excuse me, every Saturday to the classes. And I just put it out to them in our WhatsApp chats like, well, I don't know when this is over the pandemic. Do you just want to meet on Zoom? And everyone said yes. And I said, well, are you okay if I also just like invite people online? I'll just put it out online too and say free Chamorro classes people can sign up and, and come, and when I say sign up, you just need to get the Zoom link and then you can just join. There's no formal sign up, there's no fees. You just have to come and then hang out. And I wasn't prepared for how like successful it was. In the first year, in 2020, we broke my Zoom 'cause there was a limit that I didn't know about where you could only have a hundred people. So then I had to like upgrade my Zoom for more people. And so that was--and then at the high point, like in August of 2020, over the course of three hours, because I would offer three levels, beginner, beginner, two, and then intermediate. There was 300 people in the class. 00:42:00.853 --> 00:42:00.864 Wow. 00:42:00.864 --> 00:45:39.264 And I'm always careful because people come to the class at different stages and for different reasons. So some people come are very serious learners. They want to study. They're going to come up with a plan for learning. Other people just feel the word in Chamorro is mahalang, meaning lonely, isolated, homesick. They just don't have any Chamorros around them. Maybe they're the only Chamorro in their corner of Wyoming or Vermont and maybe they've left the islands or maybe they are somebody where their family migrated to the United States in the fifties or sixties and then erased what it means to be Chamorro. Not just the language, but then even just-- 'cause I've encountered so many students where they wouldn't even use the word Chamorro at all because of pressures to assimilate or perhaps feelings of racism that were internalized. And so students come into the classes and they just are so excited to be in a space where like, I'm a Chamorro, I don't know what it means. Is it okay to be here? And I'm like, yeah, this is a space for everybody. Like you don't have to be the smartest Chamorro. You don't have to be the best Chamorro just--and you don't even have to be Chamorro. 'cause a bunch of people have Chamorro wives or husbands or partners or they have a-- like even in the program that we have now, four of the people in our immersion program here are not Chamorro. And so from this program, it's like, it's grown huge. And when I say people join because they have different needs and they're at different points, it's so true. Some people will turn on their cameras and they will take copious notes. Other people, you know, will basically be driving, you know, driving in their car, who knows where, other people will be cooking with their family, other people--one of my favorites is when one of the students had her camera off, but sometimes when she turned it on, it was clear that she was a nurse in a hospital. So her camera accidentally went on and like, she was in the hospital in the class. And like there was like a someone they were working on. And I was just like, Hey, it's okay. Go take care of that person and then you can come back. We understand, we appreciate your love of our language and culture, but don't worry it'll be here go, go help that person. But so that's-- for me, that's-- yeah, for me, as somebody who learned the language as a second language, it's key, right? Because, languages, you know, it's key to have a variety of spaces to meet a variety of needs. Sometimes people assume that you need one space or like one proposal, and that's simply not the case. Certain types of learners can use certain types of programs of learning, but heritage learners are so different. Heritage learners of languages even--are so dramatically different because even the excitement that somebody feels in learning the language can block them in learning the language. Because what they feel like, I should, I should be able to say this. I'm Chamorro. Doesn't my DNA give me an advantage? Your DNA doesn't really give you an advantage. Like there's ways that you--there's ways that your sort of, your spiritual connection, your cultural connection, it can help you. But it's not like downloading an app. 00:45:39.264 --> 00:50:13.034 And so from,--so June (June Pangelinan), and most people that are in the immersion program that we're having here at San Marcos, they were my Zoom language students. So June Pangelinan started--and Clarissa Mendiola, they started in, 2020. And then June actually came to Guam the following year. And she met with me. 'cause I work at the, as the curator at the Guam Museum. And she met with me when I was giving a number of my language students who had come on island at the same time. She met with me after I gave them a tour of the museum. And she asked me, she said, you know, coming to Guam and then like, finding that like my family, even those who speak Chamorro won't speak Chamorro to me. And I know it's hard for people to understand because there's, there's thousands, there's still tens of thousands of Chamorro speakers. But you also have to remember that they're not there to serve you and the language. So you have to create a relationship with them. And sometimes students have trouble with that 'cause they feel like, my grandma speaks Chamorro, she should just speak to me in Chamorro. Your grandma has a lot of--there's a lot of issues involved. Like, you need to, you know, you need to make your grandma feel loved and trusted and cared for. Like your grandma probably, she may have been a survivor of World War II in Guam, the Japanese occupation, she was probably punished for speaking Chamorro. So when you say, hey, just speak to me in Chamorro, you're like bumping up against a lot of things and you can help her get past those things, but your desire for her to teach you is not enough. She's got a lot of blocks and you can help her get through those. But part of it is decentering the self, not learning through the ego, not learning through the ego. That's like, that's the danger for heritage learners learning through the ego. It's the worst. So June had had that experience where she had like prepared herself to be on Guam and then her family that spoke Chamorro, like really didn't speak Chamorro to her. Like she tried, but they wouldn't, they would just speak English to her. And it's--the dynamics are tricky. 'cause for most people you wanna be understood, right? And for most people, we have cognitive maps of the world. We see people in languages. And so if you see a particular person, a particular body, if there's a particular place, a lot of times our minds assign a language to it instinctively. And it doesn't mean you can't use any language there, but what happens is that your brain part of it will fire up and you'll enter--So like when I walk in here, oh, English, English. But when I go, you know, if I go into my grandma and grandpa's house, oh, Chamorro, Chamorro. And so having people kind of understand that. But so for June, she asked me, she's like, do you think it would be possible to create like a program, like an immersion program where students can like level up their learning? And I was like, of course. Will you help organize it? Because if you agree to help, then I will absolutely teach it and I will help organize it, but I just don't have the time or ability to like run the program. And so June, as they say in Chamorro, geftao, very, very generous, gof geftao. She took that task on in 2022. And then her and then Clarissa took the task on in 2023 the second year. And then this year we decided to bring it out to the diaspora because there are far more Chamorros that live out in the diaspora than live in the islands at this point. But there's almost no infrastructure out here for language learning. And so, it's been beautiful. It's been beautiful. Like, creating these spaces. It's also very exhausting. This type of work is so exhausting, but seeing sort of people come to the culture, come to the language, even just hearing the differences from day one to day five in terms of how much Chamorro they're using, it's difficult because we don't practice sort of like an aggressive immersion model. Because I always tell people, you know, aggressive immersion models can be effective, but they are also not fun. 00:50:13.034 --> 00:52:16.784 Like, one of our participants in the first year, Jesse Lujan Bennett, she has a--her husband is Maori and he-- she was in a Chamorro immersion program, he was in a Maori immersion program that same year. And so in our program, people were like crying every day about sort of their identity, coming to terms with things. And then Jesse asked her husband, are you guys crying every day? And he's like, no? It's a language immersion program. Why would we like do that? We're here to learn a language. And so--but it's a--one of these things is-- so one of --at least for me, the way that I see it is that it's a language and culture immersion program. And so what you're doing is you're giving people this robust connection to language and culture. You're giving them language for sure, but you are also trying to forge a connection that will increase the chances that they will continue to learn, or that they will continue to take up to Chamorro causes, whether at their work, in their family, in in life, social media, whatever. But just so that in--because--and it's kind of tricky because yeah, we're in the classroom all day and then part of me just wants to say no. Like, if you just wanna learn the language, then there has to be less space for you to talk about your feelings. But I also recognize that if you do that, then people may come away from this and say well--'cause this is the danger of second, you know, heritage learners, is that they don't have to learn the language. There's oftentimes not like a--there's a desire to learn it, perhaps like an identity based desire to learn it. But if it's unpleasant, then they simply will stop learning it. And so that's like the balance for it. If it's a bootcamp, then they'll just stop learning. 00:52:16.784 --> 00:53:31.425 And so that's the trade off. That's the trade off is trying to find a balance there where people get as much of the language as possible, but they also have the space where they can kind of come express their identity, talk about their feelings. Which unfortunately because of where they're at in their language level, has to be in English. And then--but fundamentally though, all of this puts them in a better position that they will come back to the Zoom classes to keep learning, or they will take up learning in another way in their family. Because this is about permeating the foundation of who they are as opposed--So oftentimes what we say is more than words, sort of the more aggressive language immersion models are words, words, conversation. You give people that and that's what they regurgitate. We have a more holistic model, which has its advantages, has its dis disadvantages, but it is rooted in this idea of that we are shaping sort of the larger person and their identity. So that hopefully yeah, they won't--this isn't their only experience in learning Chamorro. (Glances at the clock) Oh yeah. Five more minutes.. 00:53:31.425 --> 00:53:38.235 Oh wow! May I ask a question? 00:53:38.235 --> 00:53:38.244 Sure. 00:53:38.244 --> 00:53:55.255 I wanted to go back to 16-year-old you when your grandparents invited you to come home. What made you decide to say yes? Like what were you--where was your mind when you said yes? Was there any hesitation. 00:53:55.255 --> 00:57:24.804 At that time--there was definitely some hesitation, but at that time I was just really unhappy with sort of being in where my family was living in California and then just not knowing who I was. And not having any ability to like--not having any real answers. And, yeah. And so looking back on it, and I think part of it too, at least at that time, I was feeling frustrated with my mom and my stepdad and I wanted to kind of get a break from them and get away. And then on Guam I would be more free with my grandparents. And so I think a lot of it came down to that, just wanting to kind of get away. And I wouldn't have admitted at that time that I had questions about who I was. But, I definitely had those questions. I had no idea, like I didn't know where I fit in. And it's always been difficult for me as sort of like a--as a mixed race man with light complected, skin, dark, you know, sometimes dark features, dark hair, and then sometimes sort of passing, sometimes not passing and then never knowing when it's gonna work. So even like where my mom stayed in California in Atascadero, like I remember as a teenager looking for a job and I just went--there's a help wanted sign in like some sort of like antique store. And then I walked in and then like the owner basically says, no, not you, not your kind out. And I was just like, what? And I was just like--I mean, it was a very racially segregated town at that time. I mean, now it's a little bit more gentrified as people move up to escape cities and stuff. But at that time it was basically a lot of, farms and stuff and people that worked on the farms and people that owned the farms. And so--but it was everywhere I went. So like, I remember walking into a comic bookstore in San Luis Obispo once and I was walking around 'cause I didn't have a car 'cause my mother was working and I was waiting for her to finish. And then I just had found a stick and I was walking aong--so I was just like walking with like a stick. And then like, I walked into the store and then the owner was like, you need to get out of here. We don't allow weapons in here. And I'm like, it's just, it's just a stick. He's like, no, no. That's a deadly weapon in the right hands. And I'm like, I don't know how to use it as a deadly weapon. And he's like, you need to get outta here. And I'm just like, what? So it was like--I didn't--so this--these sorts of things happened a lot like in just these ways. That was always like surprising. And one of the things that always was hurtful for me was that my--the middle brother Jack. So there's, from my mom and my dad, there's Jack--there's me, Jack and Jeremy. And then my middle brother Jack is very white passing. And so when we would--like, so when we would go into places, like he would never get harassed or never like--but then I would sort of get like rude treatment or get followed in stores and stuff like that. And so like --and so it was just sort of like this weird thing like where do I belong? Like what is this? 00:57:24.804 --> 01:00:18.525 I don't even understand like why people hate me or don't like me. And I had--didn't have enough consciousness at that time to even like be like a brown power sort of person or like racial consciousness. It just, it just sucked. And it made me angry at my father, my white father. 'cause he definitely didn't understand a lot of that. 'cause my white father at that time, both of my parents kind of didn't understand. They just saw me as being sort of like a rebellious teen. And then even my brother didn't quite understand at that time either. And so, going to Guam made perfect sense because I--it took a little while, but I found a place where I belonged. Yeah. And that was like a great feeling. just like thinking--and I feel it here too, when my kids, who are my teenagers who are here with us, when they're go around and they sort of feel--they kind of like it that you go around in San Marcos and no one knows you. And I'm like, yeah, I know that. But then after a while, you might miss the fact that no one knows you. 'cause I start to miss that if I'm in the States for too long and you don't know anybody. I miss that. 'cause yes, it is draining and exhausting to be on a small island where lots of people know you and you have all these connections and obligations, but it's also a full life. And so for me, what I loved about going home was that I became tun Jack's--tun is a sign--a marker of respect, tun Jack Lujan's grandson. And that gave me a place, and it was a place that I struggled with sometimes, but I eventually came to like it. Representing my grandfather, representing my family. You know, I'm not the one that you go to if you want food for the party, but if you want a lecture about, you know, Guam history, I'm the one that you go to if you want research on our family background. I'm the one that you go to if you want something translated into Chamorro, I'm the one that you go to. And so finding a place that was going back to Guam was kind of the start of that. And then not knowing, you know, just all of this kind of ambiguity. And then finally realizing like going home and then standing next to my grandparents and then being their grandson, and then feeling the pressure off of me. Like, oh, I'm their grandson. This--these are my roots. And at first, not liking that a lot, but then eventually accepting it and embracing it and liking it and enjoying it a lot. But, so that's, that's one of the reasons why. 01:00:18.525 --> 01:00:42.905 Your grandparents obviously had a huge influence on you. And you also spoke briefly by your Auntie Eleanor. Can you tell me who--what other people had a profound effect on, on your life path, whether or not they were personal connections or even, public figures who you looked up to at the time, and now whether they're in your community or not? 01:00:42.905 --> 01:00:57.434 Oh, yeah. Let me think here. There's a number of people that I could definitely highlight. I'm trying to think if I want to do more language focused or-- 01:00:57.434 --> 01:01:06.105 Yeah. Maybe a, maybe a bit of both. 01:01:06.105 --> 01:03:03.485 So, yeah, one of the things that I like to do in the way that I teach and the way that I engage people is to kind of talk about sort of the figures from our history that can kind of inspire them to go past, their feelings of insecurity. So like, for example, yesterday we were focusing in the language immersion program on Chamorro music. And so we divided into groups. Groups had to sing some Chamorro songs. They also had to translate an English song into Chamorro and then sing it for everybody. And then today--oh, and then I talked about, for example, one of sort of the most famous Chamorro singers, a man named Johnny Sablan, who's still alive. And so I always use him as an example for learners, because when Johnny Sablan was 20 years old, he had already a career as like a teeny bopper recording English music in California. But he had an experience when he was going to college in Monterey, California, where he was part of like an ethnic culture club. An ethnic music club. And when his friends told him, Hey, Johnny, can you share some Guamese songs with us? And he realized, because Johnny Sablan could not speak Chamorro, he realized that he didn't know any Chamorro songs except for like religious songs, church songs. He didn't know any Chamorro songs. And so that experience, that experience basically led him then to go and seek out his elders and collect Chamorro songs. And then what he did is he sold his motorbike that he had in California, and he bought studio time. And instead of continuing to record in English, he decided to record the first ever Chamorro language album. 01:03:03.485 --> 01:05:45.505 And I told the students, and I always remind students, and I say, he did this even though he wasn't fluent in Chamorro. So he recorded elders who worked with him to pronounce the words correctly, to help him memorize the words. And even when you hear that first album you can tell that he messes up. And even the Chamorro musicians who did the backup music teased him and said, what are you doing making a Chamorro record? You can't even speak the language. You shouldn't be doing this. And he said, somebody's gotta do it. And so I always tell them, I say, I always try to highlight the figures who push against the grain, who push back, because I always say, for my students in my work, I always invoke the saying, Anggen ti hita pues håyi? if not us, then who? So if Johnny Sablan hadn't recorded that first ever Chamorro vinyl record in 1968, when would that have happened? Who would've done it? Like, who was the right person to do it? 'cause people told Johnny Sablan, you're not the right person to do it. And so I love to share stories like that. So every time I start a a new Zoom class, I always present a figure from our history who was a pioneer in the language in some way to help inspire the students. And usually there're people that I knew who inspired me as well. So for me, I remained inspired by Johnny Sablan. 'cause that idea that you would put yourself out there when you couldn't even fluently speak Chamorro, but to make a whole record and then just put it out there, it's--in Chamorro they say matatnga, brave. It's audacious. And so for language learners, you need that nowadays. You need some bravery, you need some audacious. And so I'm always--I always like to share stories like that to inspire students and say, look, Johnny Sablan is now a symbol of Chamorro culture and language. He was where you are at now. He couldn't speak Chamorro. He had a grandmother who didn't speak English. So he kind of had to pantomime and make do, and he could understand a little bit with what she said. But he struggled in Chamorro. He could not speak it, but he said that every people have an identity. Every people have a song. And even if the songs that he makes are different, that the music, the instruments have changed. It's important that the Chamorro people have music just like everybody else. 01:05:45.505 --> 01:05:53.394 And so I, I love that idea. Just like, don't get stuck up in the idea. Like, just do it. 01:05:53.394 --> 01:05:54.605 Have you ever met him? 01:05:54.605 --> 01:06:10.385 Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I know Johnny, he's still around. He's still around. I always try to sit down with an interview for him, but he's been sick for a while. So he's difficult to interview nowadays. But one of these days I'll get to sit down and just spend the afternoon with him. 01:06:10.385 --> 01:06:19.000 Oh, I hope so. I have so many more follow up questions, but I think we have to wrap up, unfortunately. 01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:20.097 Oh, no. 01:06:20.097 --> 01:06:24.813 Is there anything, feel free to (gestures at water) yeah. 01:06:24.813 --> 01:06:26.385 Oh yeah. 01:06:26.385 --> 01:06:33.224 Is there anything else that you would like to say? Anything I should have asked about? Anything you want to cover? oh, 01:06:33.224 --> 01:06:40.065 No, no. Thank you for letting me talk and ramble. 01:06:40.065 --> 01:06:42.090 Can I ask one more question? 01:06:42.090 --> 01:06:43.536 Of course. Of course. 01:06:43.536 --> 01:06:55.784 You talk about your children a lot, your four kids. What kind of world do you want to see for them? Whether Chamorro related climate, anything. Like what's your vision for them? 01:06:55.784 --> 01:08:56.185 Oh yeah. That was really one of the reasons why I started to teach the Chamorro language, was that I was speaking to my kids in Chamorro, my older kids, my current teenagers. And I was realizing though, that as they get older, there was no other kids their age that could speak Chamorro. They have no cousins that can speak Chamorro. There's some other children, 'cause there are like, immersion schools for youth that can, that are trying to bring up speakers. But in general, there was not speakers. And so I could see them that I would speak Chamorro to them, but for the rest of the world, they would just speak English and the language would kind of fade away. So I just started--so one motivation for starting just the organic community classes was just to try to get more people to speak Chamorro. And in a university, there's all sorts of issues, bureaucracy, and it can be very good to have that, but it can also be very problematic. So I just said, let's, let's do it as easy as possible, just a coffee shop and people show up and then, you know, so people take this on, not because they want credit, not because of this. People just show up because they wanna show up. And so I do feel definitely depressed at times because I know--so for example, with my two older children, they speak to each other in English. They speak to me only in Chamorro. And I only speak to them in Chamorro, but they speak to each other in English. And so it was something which I struggled with for a very long time. Trying to kind of get them more comfortable and confident in the language. But, but ultimately it's hard because there's no--studies show that, you know, that young children, they tend not to adopt the language of their families. They tend to adopt the language of their peers. 01:08:56.185 --> 01:11:29.795 And so if there's no one speaking Chamorro around them, then kids aren't gonna like be picking up Chamorro. They're not gonna be using it 'cause they don't assign it social value. And they certainly don't assign social value to something from their parents at that time. So yes. But a lot of what I do is sort of related to trying to improve things for them. I've told, so Sumåhi, my oldest is 17 and Sumåhi's very good at writing in Chamorro. She serves as the youth representative for the Chamorro Language Commission in Guam. And she does not like to acknowledge it, but is a star for all of the students here. Everyone here like adores Sumåhi. 'cause they see her as like the future of the language. And so when I talk to my older kids, I tell them it's like, you know, there's gonna be a place for you in this language, in this culture. Like, I'm, creating a place for you. It's up to you what you wanna do with it. You don't have to accept it. You don't have to do what I say. Soon you'll be old enough that you can make your own choices. But I do hope that you come home, I do hope that you keep this alive and then--'cause the idea that this language has existed for thousands of years, but then within the lifetime of my children, it could disappear. Makes me very sad. And so for my older child, she understands it more. She definitely understands it more. Although she's trying to figure out things in terms of her own life choices, like where she wants to go to college and what she wants to do. And she doesn't really like the fame that she has. 'cause people on Guam come up to her and they say, Sumåhi, you're so cool. Sumåhi, you're so cool. Can I get a picture with you? And Sumåhi's like, who are you (Speaking Chamorro). Who's this person? And so--so yes. But in time I'm hoping-- I give them the space so that they don't have to participate if they don't want to and that they can do--They--But I always tell them, I hope you find your way back. 'cause this is, you know, this makes our family special, this makes us special. And so. Yeah. 01:11:29.795 --> 01:13:46.585 'cause what I always like to tell people is there's so many different ways that you can express love of your culture, of your identity, but your language is one that cannot be replaced with other sort of exchangeable forms. So I always tease people and say that you can buy a thousand shirts that express your cultural pride. You can make a thousand recipes that express your cultural pride. You can make a thousand pieces of jewelry, get a thousand tattoos all over your body. But none of those things, and all those things are important, but none of them replace the connection that your language gives you to your past. And so the difference though is that you still cannot buy your language the way you can buy a t-shirt, where you can buy a tattoo, where you can buy food. And so that's part of my goal here, is to impress upon people that your language is an irreplaceable part of your culture. And so for those of you who are--who wanna take on the task of keeping it alive, you keep alive a connection to our ancestors that, yeah, that is actually more durable and more powerful than a lot of the other things that you can buy at a festival or online. Yeah, yeah. It's true because, for the Chamorro people, we were the first people--we were likely the first people to settle the Pacific Islands to leave somewhere in Asia, in boats, in ships, and then settle the Marianas Islands 3,500 - 4,000 years ago. And so I always try to impress upon people that what we brought with us, a lot of that has changed dramatically. But in our language, so many of the words that we use today, those are the words that were first spoken with, the first breaths that came over with those first sellers. 01:13:46.585 --> 01:14:10.524 And so it's a harder road to become fluent in your language, but it is a deeper connection. And so this is not to say that if you don't know your language, you are less of a Chamorro, but you cannot substitute your connection to your language with food tattoos or, or t-shirts. Yeah. 01:14:10.524 --> 01:14:14.045 Thank you. 01:14:14.045 --> 01:14:14.965 (Coughs) Oh, excuse me. 01:14:14.965 --> 01:14:17.604 That's Alright. Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Michael. 01:14:17.604 --> 01:14:19.425 Oh, no problem. To Michael. 01:14:19.425 --> 01:14:21.965 It was a pleasure. 01:14:21.965 --> 01:14:23.965 Oh no, thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.xml LujanBevacquaMichael_HoJennifer_2024-07-12.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lujan Bevacqua, Miget (Michael). Interview July 12, 2024. Description An account of the resource Michael Lujan Bevacqua is a Chamorro educator, language teacher, and activist. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Guam and in California, the pivotal relationship with his grandparents and his path toward embracing his heritage and community. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-089 Subject The topic of the resource Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Language revival Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Grandparents Education Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-07-12 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Hawaii Guam Atascadero (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Miget (Michael) Lujan Bevacqua License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Prugraman Sinipok Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rebecca Jones OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Jones, Rebecca. Interview April 12, 2023. SC027-034 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Local government -- California -- San Marcos San Diego Association of Governments Jones, Rebecca San Marcos (Calif.) COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Economic aspects COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Government policy Women in politics San Diego County (Calif.) Rebecca Jones Sean Visintainer JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12.mp4 1:|18(6)|33(5)|53(4)|69(9)|86(11)|109(10)|129(11)|145(10)|172(2)|201(5)|215(6)|230(13)|251(5)|271(16)|298(10)|317(14)|333(8)|353(7)|370(8)|387(6)|401(3)|416(15)|435(6)|453(11)|492(4)|513(8)|530(9)|549(11)|566(3)|585(8)|605(14)|622(8)|643(5)|677(10)|702(7)|719(4)|732(12)|745(3)|761(8)|777(5)|790(7)|812(9)|826(11)|848(13)|864(14)|878(16)|890(10)|904(2)|919(13)|942(5)|963(4)|975(7)|988(9)|1016(5)|1032(7)|1055(7)|1067(3)|1082(2)|1103(12)|1116(12)|1129(11)|1149(14)|1162(14)|1190(9)|1203(9)|1215(7)|1228(2)|1244(11)|1264(6)|1282(15)|1299(13)|1317(12)|1333(2)|1351(7)|1369(17)|1385(7)|1399(16)|1414(16)|1427(7)|1451(13)|1477(6)|1497(18)|1513(10)|1532(2)|1546(5)|1562(2)|1584(8)|1605(10)|1617(2)|1635(11)|1656(8)|1673(10)|1685(6)|1701(2)|1716(9)|1738(5)|1751(15)|1765(5)|1781(17)|1805(13)|1818(10)|1831(3)|1843(15)|1855(14)|1870(13)|1896(11)|1913(9)|1931(11)|1962(3)|2000(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1997e3f42e3e9c4d984c36d5eded7c44.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of San Marcos, California Mayor Rebecca Jones, by Sean Visintainer, Head of Special Collections, California State University San Marcos. Interview April 12, 2023 at the University Library. 0 50 San Marcos local governance Jones describes where the city's budget comes from, including property tax, sales tax, and via the ownership of property (thanks to status as a charter city). Jones also describes her priorities for her work and for San Marcos city government. local governance ; San Marcos city budget ; charter city 0 236 Structure of San Marcos government Jones outlines the structure of San Marcos city government, and how a City Council Manager government differs from a Strong Mayor model. Jones also speaks to building consensus, and what being a contract city entails, especially in regards to police, and fire departments. 0 569 Identifying needs Jones entails what feedback means to the act of local governance, how she solicits it, saying no, and thinking big picture about priorities and issues. Jones also touches on pandemic operations of parks and trails, supporting small businesses, and customer service. local governance ; COVID 19 pandemic ; small business ; San Marcos Parks and Trails 0 927 Local governance and San Diego County Jones speaks to the differences between county and local government, and how the City of San Marcos works within the county structure. Jones specifically addresses: mental health, SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments), North County Transit, Vallecitos Water District. Jones elaborates on transit - public transportation, car transit, and microtransit. Jones also elaborates on Innovate 78 and how the organization functions, and is tied to job retention along the 78 corridor (Carlsbad, Oceanside, Vista, San Marcos, and Escondido). SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) ; North County Transit ; Vallecitos Water District ; public transportation ; car transit ; microtransit ; Innovate 78 0 1499 Starting in politics Jones recounts how she became involved in politics, through interest in a parks issue and sitting down with city council and receiving encouragement from sitting members of the council. Jones recalls serving on the San Marcos Creek District Task Force, and learning about the process of local governance through that task force. Jones also speaks to being involved in the private sector in real estate and as a business owner. Jones also recounts her feelings towards a couple of development projects and how that spurred her to get involved in politics. local politics ; San Marcos Creek District Task Force 0 1820 Appointment to San Marcos City Council Jones recounts how the process of being appointed to the city council and the council makeup when she was first appointed. Jones outlines the difference between an appointment and an election.&#13 ; Jim Desmond ; Pia Harris-Ebert ; Betty Evans ; San Marcos City Council 0 2077 Running for election and re-election Jones recounts some experiences from her previous elections interacting with constituents and with a difficult election. Jones speaks to the emotional toll an election can have on a candidate, and how she participates in self-care. elections ; self-care 0 2629 Cycling for transit and recreation Jones speaks to her experience on SANDAG and offers her perspective on bike lanes and cycling to facilitate transit and recreation. Jones also speaks to different styles of bike lanes, motorist and cyclist education, and eBikes, especially in regards to schoolchildren.&#13 ; bike lanes ; cycle tracks ; sharrows ; splits ; eBikes 0 3051 San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force and North City Jones discuss the goal of the task force, management of the Creek, and development of the Creek District. Jones also discusses development in North City (San Marcos, originally conceived of as a university district).&#13 ; San Marcos Creek District ; San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force ; Gary London ; public/private partnerships ; North City ; Belgian Waffle Ride 0 3490 More development in San Marcos Jones elaborates on additional development in the works in San Marcos, including medical offices and a hospital, and the Discovery Road extension, traffic, and flooding. &#13 ; Scripps Hospital ; Kaiser Hospital ; Kaiser Permanente ; Discovery Road ; traffic congestion ; healthcare 0 3844 Running for San Marcos Mayor Jones recalls the decision process of deciding to run for mayor, and speaks to being San Marcos's first woman mayor, as well as her mentors.&#13 ; Pia Harris-Ebert ; Hal Martin 0 4056 Business closures during the pandemic Jones discusses the difficulties small businesses in San Marcos encountered during the pandemic and supporting small businesses in San Marcos.&#13 ; COVID-19 pandemic ; small business 0 4244 The COVID-19 Pandemic Jones discusses what she and the city did during the pandemic to lessen the burden on San Marcos citizens. Jones discusses the city's rainy day fund, sending out small business loans (which were turned into grants), moving businesses outside, facilitating permits and bureaucracy for businesses in the process of opening, and advocacy to the governor. Jones also discusses keeping outside recreation open, nonprofit assistance, supporting schoolchildren, and mental health. Jones also enumerates how part of her job entails being emotionally available and supportive for constituents, and helping communities move forward from trauma. &#13 ; COVID-19 pandemic ; business and regulation ; outdoor recreation ; American Rescue Plan Act (ARPA) ; mental health ; trauma 0 4914 Other qualities of Jones's work Jones discusses additional qualities of her day-to-day work, including being a civic booster, reading and preparation, and empathy.&#13 ; Jeff Zevely ; Channel 8 ; Prohoroff Chicken Ranch ; Hollandia Dairy 0 5228 Women in politics Jones discusses her experiences as a woman in politics, including bias and harassment. Jones also discusses her podcast, SheEO, about elevating women, and Jones's advice to women entering politics. &#13 ; women politicians ; SheEO podcast 0 5734 San Marcos youth Jones discusses her work at the Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos and engagement with San Marcos youth.&#13 ; Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos ; Highway 78 flooding ; San Marcos Market ; American Rescue Plan Act (ARPA) 0 6352 Next steps and interview close Jones discusses her personal political style, the next steps in her career, and the love she has for the city of San Marcos. San Marcos ; San Diego County Supervisor 0 Mayor Rebecca Jones has been involved in local governance of San Marcos, California since 2005, when she served on the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force until 2007. Jones served on City Council from 2007 to 2018, winning re-election three times. Jones also served as Vice Mayor from 2012-2018, and was elected as Mayor in 2018 and re-elected in 2022. In addition to her role as Mayor, Jones represents San Marcos on the San Diego Association of Governments (SANDAG) Board of Directors and on the SANDAG executive committee and regional planning committee. Jones also sits on the Countywide Redevelopment Successor Agency Oversight Board.&#13 ; &#13 ; In her oral history, Jones discusses the structure of San Marcos's local government and how it interacts with the San Diego County government. Jones recalls her foray into politics and recounts previous elections as well as her service on the San Marcos Creek Task Force. Jones also offers her perspective on public transit, car transit, bike transit, and microtransit, development in San Marcos, and how the she and city navigated the COVID-19 pandemic. Jones delves into her experience as a woman in politics, and her place as San Marcos's first woman mayor, and offers advice to women interested in a political career. Jones also discusses her podcast, cooking, self-care, and the Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos. Sean Visintainer: Okay. This is Sean Visintainer and I’m here today with Mayor Rebecca Jones of San Marcos, California, doing an oral history interview for the Oral History Special Collections Project at Cal State San Marcos. Today is April 12th. We’re doing the interview in the University library. Mayor Jones, thank you so much for joining us today. Mayor Rebecca Jones: Oh, it’s my pleasure. SV: I wanted to start off just by asking you some questions about local government. And I think that it’s something that maybe is a little, at times, opaque to people. And so, I was just curious because local government can look really different depending upon the municipality. For people that are going to watch this video, researchers in the future, could you describe a little bit about how local government in San Marcos happens? RJ: Well, it used to be the great mystery. So, when I actually got involved with the city, I had no idea how local government worked. So, I tried to remember and put myself from that perspective as being just a resident and making things easier. And so, what we do, essentially, is we spend taxpayer money— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —that is from different sources. Most of it is from sales tax. That’s actually where we have our largest amount of money to spend for the residents. But then we also have property tax. And most people don’t know this but out of all of the counties in the city, I believe we are the lowest city that has the smallest share of property tax. So, out of every dollar we get 7.2¢. So, if you look at just that in itself, it really is very important for us to figure out other ways to actually generate revenue. So, we are a charter city. And a charter city allows us to actually have property that we own which is owned by the residents of the city of San Marcos. And all of that revenue that we actually have coming in—so Creekside Marketplace would be an example of that as well as City Hall—but all of that money actually helps augment the very low sales tax that we have. SV: Okay. So, I assume then you have to be very fiscally responsible. RJ: Very fiscally responsible. And so, anyway, our job as a local government is to spend your money wisely ; keep you safe which is, honestly, our number one concern in my opinion—it always has been—and then also making sure we have a good quality of life for people. And so, you know, during my time on the council, I always again, you know, try to remember as a resident what is important to our residents. And I actually—this is kind of crazy but when I am campaigning which, you know, I’ve won five elections now— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —when I’m out campaigning, I actually enjoy the part of knocking on a stranger’s door and knowing that I’m going to get some feedback that I might not ever get otherwise. And so, I think it’s really important for me to always remember that part of local government, who you’re serving, which is the residents of the city, but also keeping everyone safe whether you own a business, whether you live here, or whether you’re visiting here. We want to make sure that we have that as our highest priority and, you know, people can drive safely through our community, come and shop here. If they’re already passing through San Marcos, which a lot of people do, we want them to, you know, spend a little more money and enjoy themselves. So, just keeping all of that in perspective is always at the front of what I’m always thinking and part of what my leadership is and, you know, just having again a good quality of life where people love to visit, live here, and, you know, a good place to call home. SV: Mm-hmm. Can you speak a little bit to how the process of government works, the City Council, the other people that are involved, the Deputy Mayor, yourself? RJ: Yeah. So, essentially, there is a City Council Manager style government. So, you might hear about like a strong Mayor. It’s not that. There’s only one city in the entire county that has that and that’s the city of San Diego. But a Council Manager form of government, local government, means that there are five council people. We pretty much have the same authority. However, I can put anything on the agenda which I have done in the past. But also, you know, I work very closely with the City Manager. I don’t really have any extra authority. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: There’s a few little things but nothing major. And so, there are five of us that really have to look out for the best of what’s going on in the community. And we actually started districts back in 2018 and that actually changed things a bit, because that was the first time where we had councilmembers that were working specifically and being elected specifically in one area of the city. So, we have four districts and I’m at-large, so I’m elected by the entire city. And so, each one of us, you know, we have things that are important to us. We bring them forward. And then we try to get a consensus on them. My job is to make sure we’re all getting along— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —making sure that everyone’s voice is heard, and then also making sure that, you know, we always are remembering, even if you’re not representing technically District 1, for instance, that really District 2, 3, and 4 also matter. And, you know, we only have a certain amount of money, and we really need to make sure that we’re, you know, spending money where the greatest need is but also not just focusing on one part of the city. SV: Yeah. You spoke about consensus building, and I think that’s really interesting since it seems like a lot of decision making has to be shared decision making in San Marcos. How do you go about building consensus? RJ: Well, the biggest, most important thing, in my opinion, is not being political. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, once you bring political parties into it, you really just spoil everything, to be honest. And so, my job has always been as I’ve seen it is to be apolitical, for the most part. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And then also making sure that we are, you know, again spending money wisely and, you know, really addressing all of the needs and the wishes in the community. And making sure that everyone feels that they’re part of the city is also good, you know. It’s doing well. It’s safe. It’s very important for everyone, like I said, to be safe. I think that has always been super important but even more now than ever because there are a lot of people that don’t feel safe. You know, our world has changed. Laws are not the same that they used to be. And so, it’s really important to make sure that, again, your funding, your fire department, and then also your sheriff deputies—we are a contract city, which let me speak to that for just one moment. SV: Sure. RJ: I’ve had a lot of people during, you know, the downturn in the economy and, you know, during a lot of political things that have happened, saying to me, “Should we have our own police force?” Well, we actually still are one of the cities that has the lowest crime rate in the entire county. And so, that’s an important thing. Are we—what is the need? What is the problem? And so, you know, starting our own department would be very expensive, probably $3-4 million dollars. And, if it’s not broken, why fix it? SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, we actually are very lucky that we have some great captains that have come in. We have them for about two or three years, max. But they always end up being the cream of the crop. They end up moving on and actually being maybe an under-Sheriff or, you know, an assistant Sheriff. And so, you know, we really have had some great, you know, leaders in our Sheriff department. But a lot of people like to come back to our city. They might come here as a young Deputy, move on, and then they like to come back because it is a good place. We do have an excellent relationship with them, with the City Council and the Sheriff Department. And so, I think that really is very telling that, again, back to “if it’s not broken, why try to fix it when you’re doing very well.” And that’s, you know, one of the things that I think you do need to always keep in mind is, when things are going well, pay attention to what actually is working. You don’t have to change everything just for the sake of changing it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But you also don’t need to have things that you look at and say, “Well, we’ve been doing it that way twenty years, the same way, and it doesn’t work.” That’s when you need to pay attention. So, anyway, I’m very happy with our sheriff deputies and then also our fire department too, because they really do bring a sense of wellbeing to our community. SV: Yeah. We had to call the fire department— RJ: Oh no! SV: —not too long ago. They responded very promptly. They— RJ: Good. SV: —were wonderful. RJ: Okay! Well, that’s good to know. SV: So, we were very happy with how they did. RJ: Yeah. Good. SV: So, you talked about identifying change and maybe not needing change for the purpose of making change. RJ: Right. Yeah. That’s it in a nutshell. SV: I’m a little bit—I was curious how you identify need. So, it’s important to see what doesn’t need to be changed. But how do you go about recognizing where there is a need? RJ: Well, a lot of it has to do with feedback, to be honest. I mean, really, if you see something that maybe isn’t going as well as you had hoped, I mean a lot of it has to do with how people are feeling in the community. Do they feel like their voices are being heard? And their voice is being heard doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re getting everything that they want. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Sometimes, you have to say no. And, you know, that’s the big picture. We have nearly 100,000 people and we have—you know, that live here full-time, and we’ve got about 40,000 students that are coming in, that go to CSU, to Palomar College and all of our other higher learning institutions. It’s a lot of people. That’s really about 140,000 people that are, you know, coming into our city every day, whether they live here full-time or not. You know, you have to figure out how you serve them. So, again, you know, are you providing opportunities for them to actually enjoy themselves, have recreation. You know, we are actually known for our parks, which I think is really important at keeping people out and active. And, you know, during the pandemic for instance, many of the cities were closing their trails and their parks. We followed the health orders, but we kept our trails open, and we kept our parks, for the most part, open. We did close our climbing structures and that sort of thing. But we always felt that it was very important to keep people out and active and having those opportunities because mental well-being is important in a community. But then, also having opportunities for people to open businesses. And you know, one of the things that I’ve been talking about for years—and this year it is our first time ; we’re actually calling it one of our goals— and that’s concierge service, that is the customer experience because the customers are the community. And then, also, the business owners, when they come into City Hall, do they feel welcomed? Do they feel like it’s easy for them? They get the support that they need to open a business. Or, if they’re making changes to their property or something like that, are we doing everything we can? And, again, do they have that concierge experience? And so, we’re doing a lot of different things. We actually are just launching something in the next couple of weeks that will help people understand more about conditional use permits and opening businesses and finding out where their dream can come true of opening a business in the city and where it’s actually available to already open pretty easily, or where it might take a little more work on their end. And so, you know, we just are trying to always make that experience a little bit better. And, you know, I’m really proud of all the work that we’ve done since I’ve been on the council. This is my 17th year on the city council. And so, it’s been a long time. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I remember when I first joined the council, I was the only woman at the time. And I remember saying “Well, you know it would be great if we had good customer service.” And at the time, that did not go over very well (Sean chuckles). There was this “Well, what is that all about?” And, you know, now if you look forward, you know, to where we are today and how important that is to us, we’ve changed a lot. And so, you know, again, changing things that you identify as having issues and it’s not just what I think. A lot of it really does have to do with getting feedback from our community. SV: Mm-hmm. How do you solicit feedback? RJ: Well, I try to make as many—myself—as available as possible. And, you know, we talked about this a little bit earlier about, you know, being available. This is a full-time job. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It could happen in a grocery store. It could be happening at the park. Wherever I am, I know that it is important for me to be available. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, Chamber of Commerce events. Really anywhere is a way. I have a very open-door policy, emails, social media, even though I don’t love social media. It does offer a way for people to connect with me. And so, I think, again, that is really important. You know, and then my cell phone. I have it on my cards. I give it to everyone. I have a lot of people that just reach out to me and say, “You know what? I met you at this event. You gave me your card because I asked for it. I didn’t really feel comfortable discussing this with you. But here’s what I’m thinking.” And I think that is, in itself, being a mayor of the people. Being available is so important. And, again, you know back to the point that I made a little earlier as well, and that is being as apolitical as possible. I really do believe that that’s the best way that you can serve your community. Not making anyone feel left out and bringing everyone together and being that consensus builder is really important. So, I work very wholeheartedly and very diligently at doing that. SV: Yeah. So, you’re pretty much always on duty. RJ: I am. SV: Yeah. RJ: I am which, you know, makes it difficult. It is a hard job— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —to do, you know, pretty much all day every day. But, you know, I have to say I look around the city and I do have to pinch myself sometimes, thinking “You know, I was a part of that.” And “Oh, I was a part of that.” I mean, I really am proud of what our community has become. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, and we really have grown significantly. We are a college town. And then, you know, we’ve really done a good job, I think, at juggling following state mandates, making sure, again you know, our community is a good place to call home, also to do business in. You know, it really encompasses a lot of different things. But I’ve been very intentional about, you know, making the things that are important to our residents important to me as well. SV: Mm-hmm. Could you talk a little bit about how the city government functions within the larger context of, I guess, the county? RJ: Oh yeah. SV: You know, how the different municipalities interact and then how the county government as well, functions with the city. RJ: So, all mental health is handled through the county. That’s probably the biggest difference of the county and then cities. So, there are 18 cities plus the county. And then what we have is several different, you know, regional groups that we are, you know, part of. So, one being SANDAG which is mainly transportation. And then you’ve got also North County Transit which is for North County. And it’s our transit operator. And so, and then there’s like the water—we don’t actually have our own water department. So, Vallecitos Water District handles that. We are a little different than some cities. Like the city of Carlsbad, they also serve the water as well. But we don’t do that. You know, just really the biggest thing is when we’re on a board together, you have to wear a regional hat. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You have to figure out—because we don’t work independently as silos. We do work together. You know, when you look at transportation in itself, you know a lot of people drive cars, about 97% of the county, about only 2-3% honestly actually use transit. It’s not a system that actually runs often enough for it to be, you know, serving most people for their lives. Plus, a lot of people have lifestyles that really it doesn’t fit within their lifestyles. But then there are a lot of people—well, not a lot, but the people that do use public transit, they really do rely on it. So, we need to figure out how to serve everyone. And so, you know, is there a possibility of having a transit system that actually can attract more riders? I believe so. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But it also relies on people making that shift. We need to make sure it’s safe. There is a lot of people that believe that only people that are homeless ride on public transit. That’s not the case. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Though there are some. I’m not going to pretend that there isn’t. There definitely are. But how do we make it more meaningful and easier for people to use it? So, we do need a balanced transportation system like I said. And that’s not punishing car drivers and trying to force them out of their cars. It’s not going to happen. Many people, especially people I think with kids, really rely on that, you know, getting their kids where they need to go. And I, you know, my kids—I have, well, I’ll just give you an example. I had a soccer player and she played competitive soccer, my daughter. And then my son was a surfer. And so, two very, very different, you know, life sorts of things that they like to do. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, for me, I was always driving. I was always driving, you know, a big SUV because usually I was like “Hey, you know what? I’ll pick up your kids too.” So, you know, for practices and all of that for my daughter, I did a lot of carpooling. With my son, not so much because he wanted to go, you know, when he wanted to go. So, you know, I’d go and try to run errands while he was at the beach. And then I’d go back and pick him up. So, you know, a lot of different lifestyles have different needs. And, you know, so that’s one of the things that I always try to mention when I’m on that SANDAG committee. I’m on the Board of Directors as Mayor. And I try to say, “Remember. Let’s not forget about, you know, the parents. Let’s not forget about our retirees. We really do need a transportation program that fits everyone’s needs.” And it is tricky. But I think it can be done. But our new regional plan, I think that it really does punish car drivers in a lot of ways. And we really need to bring more transit, in my opinion, up to North County. And what I’ve been talking about for quite some time, and it actually will be rolling out pretty soon, is having micro-transit within cities because that is a way for you to actually get where you need to go within the city. It’s not going to take you to work or anything like that. But, you know, on your short trips, you know, getting for instance our kids to school because the school district has very little busing. They are starting to bring some of it back. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But that really is only for the elementary kids. So, you know, the older kids, the middle-schoolers, the high schoolers, how do you get them to school in a meaningful way? And I think micro-transit is a way to do that. But it’s also a way for people like if you want to go out and have dinner, have that glass of wine. You don’t have to drink and drive! You don’t have to call an Uber. If you’ve got a system that actually is on demand, it will meet those needs. And I think it would serve our community better. So, I think having more conversations about, you know, different aspects of a transportation plan that fits really the needs of the community like micro-transit and then also autonomous vehicles. They are the future more than I think fixed rail or fixed routes on buses. I think it really does lend better to peoples’ lifestyles. So, you know, keeping that in mind, that’s what we do at SANDAG. But then also at North County Transit. It’s all about the same things that I just mentioned about transit. But, you know, working with other cities it happens a lot. We also have something on the 78 corridor that is something that not the rest of the nation has. I think it’s one of a kind. And it is that cities work together. And so, Innovate 78 started. And it was really about attracting business to the region. I call us the “upside” of San Diego because we’re North County. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: We’re very close to Riverside and to Orange County. And, you know, we really have a different bit of lifestyle. A lot of people that really enjoy the urban living don’t really enjoy it as much in North County. But we also, you know, we have a lot of space for jobs and, you know, we also have a lot of homes. And so, a lot of people, you know, North County is a little more affordable. As you get east of the 5, it, you know, gets a little more affordable. East of the 15 is a little more affordable. But, you know, also trying to figure out how to balance, again, the transportation, getting people to work, and all of that is a consideration. But, you know, when you have large cities like Carlsbad where they have a lot of jobs, where are those people going to live? Well, a lot of them do live in San Marcos, for instance, or Vista. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, you know, Innovate 78 was all about trying to figure out how to attract businesses. If the city of Vista has a business or the city of San Marcos has a business within our city, we can’t find the proper amount of land for them because they want to grow. We work together and our Economic Development Directors work together to figure out where can we move them to stay in North County, so they don’t have to disrupt their workforce, so they don’t have to disrupt their lifestyles. How can we work together to make that happen? And it has been very successful. I’m very proud of the work that we’ve done. And, you know, it has been recognized that we have done some really good work together. SV: Yeah. So, is Innovate 78 like a—is it a formalized structure? Do you have meetings that happen on a regular basis? Or is it more of a—I don’t know exactly what I’m trying to ask you here. RJ: I know what you’re trying to—So, we don’t have—Okay. So, there are quarterly meetings where it’s the mayors, generally, but not always, and council members. So, they kind of cycle in. And then they’re hosted in all the different cities. That’s a quarterly thing. But our Economic Development Directors and staff work actually—they do have monthly meetings. So, they do work together on a very, very regular basis. And, you know, that, again—You know, we’re policy makers. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, it’s not imperative that we are there all the time, you know, at a monthly meeting or something like that. It is when it comes to transportation like SANDAG but not with Innovate 78. And again, you know, there’s a lot of work that has gotten done where, you know, businesses rather than them, you know, locate elsewhere like another county or something like that or, you know, maybe in South County, we’ve been able to keep and retain them here in North County which is a good thing. SV: Yeah. That is a good thing. RJ: Yeah. SV: You talked about micro-transit. I just wanted to clarify what that is in case it becomes available. RJ: Oh, micro-transit is like a small shuttle sort of bus. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Not a big full-sized bus but more of a smaller bus. And it would be—and what North County transit is going to be—Have you ever seen the Carlsbad Connector? SV: I haven’t. RJ: Okay. Well, it’s kind of a, it’s a smaller bus and it would be on demand. That will be rolling out in San Marcos. SV: Okay. RJ: Through North County Transit. SV: Okay. When will that roll out? RJ: Actually, sometime probably fall or early next year. SV: Very cool! RJ: Yeah. SV: I wanted to ask you a little bit about your journey into politics. RJ: Oh my gosh! Yes. Everyone says, “What made you— SV: Yeah! RJ: “—want to be in politics?” Well, I could tell you this much. I never did. (laughs) It’s one of those things that I just kind of fell into. And so, what ended up happening is I was a young mom, and really, I didn’t even know how local government worked. I didn’t know what city government handled. I didn’t know anything about anything. And there was a public notice in the park next to my home. And, you know, I had a baby at home and a four-year-old. And I was like “What’s going on? What is happening?” you know. And some of my neighbors were saying “Oh, we don’t want this in our park.” And I said, “Well, what’s even going on?” And then, as I started delving into it and I got more information and I actually figured out what was going on, I went “Yeah. I don’t like that for the park either. I’m not in love with that.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, it really was being involved. I sat down with all of the council members at the time and I had two council members, a Republican and a Democrat, say to me, “Rebecca, you should get involved in politics.” And I said, “I have you. Why would I do that?” And they said, “Well, we’re definitely not going to be doing it forever.” I think both of them were probably right around 20-25 or 24 years, you know, being involved in the city. And I was like “Why? Why won’t you do this forever?” And they said, “Well, you know, it’s a big job. However, when you really want to help shape the community, it’s a good thing.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, I had both of them, you know, talk me into it. First they kind of “voluntold” me. And I actually first joined the San Marcos Creek District Task Force, originally. And I thought that was really interesting because I learned a lot about land use, a lot about, you know, just creating spaces where people could come and, you know, congregate, and really making a community a place where people can, you know, meet up with their friends and, you know, have those restaurants and those spaces that are, you know, beautiful and, you know, signature to the community, very unique. And I really liked that. And so, I was like “Okay. Well, I do like this.” And I have to tell you, my background is that I was a new home sales agent when I was in my early twenties. SV Mm-hmm. RJ: And then, my ex and I started a furniture marketing company which became very successful. We had customers. We started out with zero sales. We actually built that into a $100 million dollars a year in sales with Walmart, Costco, BestBuy as some of our customers. So, it was a pretty lucrative business. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But, you know, it was really hard. And I remember when he came home one day from work, he said, “You know, we’re going to start our own business.” And I went “We??” And, you know, at that time we only had one child and he was one. And he said, “Yes. You’re going to do all of the business part of it. And I’m just going to do the sales.” And I went “Oh. Okay.” And I go “You know, I don’t know how to work a computer.” And he said, “Nah, that’s okay. You’re smart. You could figure it out.” And that’s, you know, that’s really how it started. And so, I’ve always been kind of a, you know, very I would say involved person. If someone, you know, gives me a challenge or a task, I will go all in, and I’ll make sure I’ll do a good job. I’m very conscientious. And so, that really is how it started. Started out, you know, had that background of business in my, you know, my marriage and owning it. And then, I just went “Well, you know what? It’s time for me to give back. It’s time for me to be part of the solution rather than, you know, trying to stop things that are happening, you know as far as development goes.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, there were a couple of other things. The second Walmart, I didn’t agree with that. I didn’t think the placement was correct. And then there was the Robertson’s Ready-Mix batch plant over on Barham. And I said “Yeah. This is negative. I’d rather be positive.” I don’t like negativity, as you could probably tell. I’m a very positive person. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And you know what? I just knew that it was probably the right thing to do. And so, I ended up actually applying for an appointment because my ex had gotten sick in 2006. So, I wasn’t able to run a campaign that year. And I applied for the appointment in 2007. I was selected. And then I have run five campaigns since then and been elected five times. So, I must be doing something right. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Always been the top vote getter, even if it was for two seats and, you know, I would say that no one outworks me. No one immerses themselves more into trying to be involved and prepared. And so, I think that sets me apart because I really am not a politician. I’m just a person that loves the community and wants to give back and has found a way that I can do that. SV: And you said that you applied for the appointment for city council, if I’m understanding correctly. RJ: Correct. SV: So, what is that process like? RJ: Boy, was that fun. I’m just kidding. (both laugh) So, you filled out an application and then you talked about your experience and what you wanted to bring to the table. And at that time, it was an interesting time. So, Jim Desmond had just been elected as mayor. And, you know, it was—there were four men on the council. Pia Harris-Sebert was our first woman ever elected to the city council. And she was the first woman, but she was really the only woman for quite a while. We did have Betty Evans that, I think, served one or two terms in between. But she wasn’t on there. And so, it was really—there were four men left on the city council. And, you know, Jim Desmond was talking about diversity back then. And, you know, he said, you know, I like what Rebecca brings to the table, the business background, which is really important. And I think everyone should have at least some sort of background as far as how you spend money. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, it’s—you don’t have a ton of money to spend and, you know, really being able to figure out how to best spend that. You know, when you’re a business owner and especially when you’re starting out a business, you are pretty much trying to figure out how you’re not going to starve. And so, that really does bring an interesting perspective, I think, to the table. Anyway, and so, I was selected. There were 27 applicants. I got up to the podium and one of the council members actually had a lot of disagreements with me. He was supportive of the second Walmart. And, you know, he brought that up. He said “Well, you know, Walmart, they’re one of your customers. They must be very forgiving because you didn’t agree with the second Walmart.” And I said, “Well, you know, it doesn’t mean that I’m against Walmart. It just meant that I didn’t think the location was okay.” And those two things—you can still feel both things and believe in both things. It doesn’t mean that you don’t like Walmart. I mean, there are a lot of people in my community that love Walmart. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, whether I’m a Walmart shopper or not, a lot of people want to shop there. And so, you know, I think it’s really important that you have a good mix of businesses. And, you know, I think I brought that to the table. But I also, you know, brought forward the part of—I really cared about, you know, being able to represent everyone. And I think I’ve been—It has been a very valuable voice at that table. SV: Mm-hmm. So, there’s not an election process for city council? Or there wasn’t at that time? RJ: Not for an appointment. No, not for an appointment. SV: Oh, because Desmond— RJ: Because I’m in an appointment. SV: Okay. Gotcha. RJ: Yeah. So, right now, there is a supervisor seat that is going to be vacated. So, there would be an opportunity for either an appointment or a special election. At that time, a special election was gauged to be around $300,000. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It’s very expensive. If you can come up with an agreement on an appointment, it makes sense, if you can come to an agreement. But it doesn’t always happen. SV: Yeah. So— RJ: And, you know, a lot of people have been appointed and have not been able to get elected. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I think there were people that actually spoke against my appointment that when they saw what I did in my first two years, before I had my first election, they went “Wow. Okay.” And they’ve been some of my biggest supporters, to be honest. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, that does actually feel good because people do recognize how hard I work. It does feel good to have that recognized. SV: Yeah. So, then you ran for reelection then around 2009 or so? RJ: 2008— SV: 2008. RJ: —then ’12, and then ’16. I was elected as a woman’s—or as a first woman mayor in our city— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —to ever serve as mayor in 2018. And then, I was reelected last year, in 2022. SV: So, what does an election look like from your perspective when you’ve decided—let’s take your first time that you’re going after your appointment when you’re going to be reelected or elected to the city council? RJ: Oh, boy. It’s a lot of fun. So, first of all, you know, you need to raise money. So, do people believe in you? Because they’re not going to definitely, you know, donate to your campaign if they don’t believe in you. So, the good thing is I did have a record and I was able to point back to that. But not only was I able to point back to that, I was able to point back to the success in my business, how hard I’d worked, and all of those things. And, you know, it’s really important, I think, that you do connect to the community because at the end of the day you can raise all the money in the world but if you don’t have the votes, it’s really irrelevant. And so, can you get—And, you know, every single time—and I’ve run five elections—I’ve thought, “Oh my gosh. I’m losing. I’m losing!” (throws her head back and laughs) I’ve had, you know, like—I remember my first campaign. Oh my gosh. I showed up to this one woman’s house. This is really deflating. And she says to me “Oh, I already voted. And I didn’t vote for you.” (Sean chuckles) And I went “Oh. Okay.” (chuckles) And then I walked away, and I thought “Shoot! You know, why didn’t she even give me a chance to tell her about myself.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, so it’s a very humbling experience. And, honestly, I would say equally humbling is actually serving because really, you know, to have people believe in you and when they say to you, “You know what? I love what you’re doing in our community” it really does feel amazing because, again, you know back to your hard work but also, I do love the community. And I do want it to be the best that it possibly can be. And so having that part acknowledged is really important to me too. But, again, very humbling. And, you know, so every single campaign I’m like “Okay. Well, if I just go by what people are saying at the doors, I’m winning! Like I’m winning!” And then I’m like “That could not be how it is. They could just be saying that to me.” And so, you know, it really is a hard thing. And not everyone can put themselves out there. It’s nerve wracking. On that election night, you’re going “Okay. Waiting for the first numbers to come up. What’s it going to be?” And, you know, I have to say my fifth election, you know this last one, it was very ugly. It was very unfair because I was, you know—it was a smear campaign, honestly, on my integrity and what I had done for all these years and trying to paint me into a box. I don’t fit into a box. I’m going to be totally honest about that. I don’t fit into a box. I’m not a politician, don’t want to be a politician. I want to be a civic leader and someone that will read everything and make good decisions for the best of everyone. And, you know, you’re not going to make everyone happy. That part is kind of hard in elected office. But if you’re making most people happy and you’ve got a safe community, a thriving community, at the end of the day that’s all you can really hope for and, you know, again making most people happy but there are going to be some people that don’t like you. I’ve had people actually comment about what I look like which is very insulting. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: What I look like has nothing to do with the kind of job that I do. And, you know, trying to call me little nicknames and that sort of thing, I’m not a robot. I am a person so it does hurt a bit. But, you know, at the end of the day I do remember, you know, some people aren’t going to like me. That’s okay. I just know, at the end of the day really, if I go to bed and I know that I’ve done a good job that day, I wake up the next day and it’s a new day and, you know, I can let things go which it does take that in this job. You do have to let a lot of things go. You know, the personal insults really don’t matter, I guess, at the end. But, you know, I’m not a robot so it does affect me a bit. And, you know, you do have to really remember just to stay true to yourself. And I really am very proud that I have done that. SV: Yeah. What is your process for self-care when you’re having a negative day or a stressful time? RJ: Well, as I mentioned earlier, I have to get to the gym. I mean, I’m just one of those people, if I don’t get enough exercise I will literally overthink things. And so, for me, I’m really getting to the gym. And my gym! Oh, gosh. So, during Covid, closed down in San Marcos. And I was like “Okay. I’m going to go to another one of them.” It was in Encinitas. But I really am very specific because it’s not a super long workout and I can do it whenever, you know, pretty much during, you know, business hours. But I like to be able to go and punch bags (laughs) and kick bags. It’s a kickbox workout. So, I’m not like punching someone. I don’t want to do that. But I do, you know—it’s a kickbox workout. So, now, I found another one. It’s in Rancho Bernardo. So, it’s not in the city which can be kind of beneficial because, you know, I’m not sweaty and looking like a mess. And then, you know, if I’m like I’m punching and I’m having an especially frustrating day, I can do that. The other thing I really love to do is hike. I admittedly have not hiked in a very long time. I actually, a few years ago, hiked in the Tetons. So, I had to do a lot of training for that. So, I was out on the trails two and three times a week which it’s actually better for me when I can find that time. The job is very, you know, —it does entail a lot of time for me. So, it is tough for me to actually do that during the day. And, you know, when we have rainy weather, that doesn’t help. Or weather that’s too hot, that doesn’t help. So, you know, really trying to find the time to at least do that. And then I love to cook. So, during the pandemic, I started cooking for a few elderly people. And so, I have some folks that I cook for. And when I need a mental health moment, I just go in my kitchen and I just cook up a storm and several meals and I mean soups and I just try lots of different, new recipes and find things that I can tweak and make my own. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But those are the things that I do. I do try to do that. I don’t get massages. I really need a massage many times though. I don’t really take the time to do that. So, really, the biggest thing is exercise and then getting that cooking in. You know, and then everyone benefits from it. SV: Yeah. RJ: Because I’m actually not a bad cook, so— (chuckles) SV: So, what’s your best dish? RJ: Oh, gosh. Well, that has evolved. I don’t know. I’ve become quite the soup maker. But I do have my tried and true. I’m really good at prime rib and au gratin potatoes. My kids are always like “Mom” —and, you know, they’re older. They’re twenty. Actually my daughter will be 23 in a few weeks, and my son just turned 27. You know, whenever they, you know, want a good meal, they’re like “Mom. Could you make this? Or can you make that?” and then I made chicken fingers for the first time ever. And they’re like “Mom. These are like the best I’ve ever had.” So, anyway, I’m like “Well, I could teach you how to do it.” And so, you know, I’ve had them over a couple of times and, you know, teaching people to cook, honestly is—You know, there are a lot of people that don’t cook in this world, and I think, you know, the less we eat processed food, the better it is for us. And so, I like to, you know—I cook almost solely organic. I try not to eat heavily processed food. I think it’s better for me. You know, I’m going to be 56 next year—Oh, oh my gosh. Not next year. This year! Oh, gosh! In a few weeks. Oh, gosh, about a month. So, yeah. I’ll be 56. You know, I think our bodies can actually be healthier and mentally better when we’re, you know, putting the right food in them and then also getting exercise too. So, I try to definitely do all that to take care of myself. I know that’s a long story but those are the things that I do. (chuckles) SV: Yeah. Well, thank you for answering. And I asked the food question because I used to be a chef. So, I’m always interested to know about people’s experiences. RJ: Oh, wow! Nice. Nice. SV: And then exercise, I agree. I mean, it’s so important. I think to bring it back to our interview, you know, something that I take advantage of is the bike lanes. RJ: Oh, yeah. SV: And I was curious as to what your—You know, you’ve talked about transit. You’ve talked about micro-transit and, you know, what your priorities are in terms of pedestrian and two-wheeled transit as well. RJ: Yeah. Thanks for asking that. So, actually, at SANDAG, this is kind of interesting, I had actually voted against spending $140, I think it was $140 million dollars on bike lanes. And I had one of our residents send me a message. And he said, “You’re the worst mayor ever!” And I was like “Oh. Wow.” And he said, “I can’t believe how you don’t like cyclists.” And I said, “Well, that’s not exactly how that went.” And so, I explained, you know, that there’s no reason that bike lanes should be costing $5 million dollars a mile. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: That’s way too expensive. There’s no way that should be happening on a road that is literally already there. So, I said, you know, I had an issue with that. I have a real problem spending money in a wasteful way. And, you know, so I said, “Hey, let’s meet.” I sat down with him. He’s now a fan and definitely not, you know, against me any longer because he didn’t really know all of the reasons that I felt the way that I felt. I think getting input from cyclists is really important. You know, again, back to the point that we have 72 miles of, you know, trails. Those are often times, you know, available for cyclists and, you know, pedestrians, hikers, even horses because we still have horses in San Marcos. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, I am really proud about that. The one thing that, you know, I’ve done a lot of research on the different types of bike lanes, and I’m not sold on the cycle tracks. A lot of times the very serious cyclists are saying to me, “Rebecca, they’re very dangerous because you are confined in a space.” They look safe. Maybe for kids they’re safe. But they’re very expensive, first of all. And they really are not super safe because if you hit that curb for whatever reason, you could be thrown off of your bicycle and end up in the middle of a lane. That’s not very safe. Or there is a lot of crashes if you’ve got like—you know, most cyclists are in packs. Hardly anyone goes by themselves. I have a lot of friends that are very serious cyclists that, since this whole thing came forward, I’ve actually just from my friend group—and I do have some serious cyclists now in it. And they don’t really like those tracks. So, in my opinion, any time that we can have a sharrow, which is the bike lane that is a full lane with cyclists in it and then a car only lane, I think that’s probably a really good idea. Any time we can have a split because you’re not limited on space or real estate and have, you know, a separate bike lane that’s by itself but without all of the little candlesticks and the curbs and all that, I think that’s a good idea. It’s not always possible because a lot of times you’re putting them in after the fact. I would like to see more education. I am concerned that some people get really upset with cyclists. And some cyclists—I have to tell you. I actually had a property down at the beach, a second property, with my ex and, you know, every time I would go to back out of the driveway cyclists would come and they would like not pay attention to me. And I would go “Well, they’re not the only one on the road.” And then I would see them running stoplights and stop signs. And that actually upsets motorists. I hear people say it all the time. And I go, “I get where you’re coming from. However…” You know, I try to defend cyclists. But, you know, if we all ran by the same rules or all, you know, followed the same rules, that would actually be optimum. You’re probably never going to see that, you know. There are always people that are going to break rules. It’s just how it is. And they shouldn’t spoil it for everyone. And so, you know, I have to say I am very, very careful around cyclists, and I really wish everyone was because the truth is a cyclist is never going to win against your car. SV: Yeah. RJ: It, you know—And, you know, as soon as, you know, you hear of, you know, a cyclist getting hit by a car and they’re like “Oh, it’s obviously the car’s fault.” Sometimes it isn’t. I mean, really sometimes it isn’t. You know, sometimes yes, sometimes no. But I do think we need to, again, create the opportunities, education and, you know, let’s just get into eBikes for one second. The kids should not be on the eBikes that are above their ability. It is a moving vehicle. It is like being on a moped or a motorcycle. I am—oftentimes, I see the kids, you know, going wayward and crazy on them. And you know what? It’s a recipe for disaster. And then, you know what? There are accidents that happen. And, you know, it shouldn’t be all on the driver. The cyclists, you know, including the eBikes really need to be responsible. I really would love to see more education in that. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: I have brought that up numerous times. I think the school district really should take a lead in this. I know our deputies at our Sheriff’s station do it as well. But, you know, a lot of kids are riding them to school. And it’s very dangerous. Parents, pay attention! (laughs) SV: Yep. RJ: They just think, “Oh, it’s just a bicycle.” It’s really not. And it really is very dangerous and, you know, we can’t parent the kids. That’s not our job. The parents need to parent their kids and they need to teach them how to be responsible with their bicycles, their eBikes especially. SV: Yeah. eBikes are a new wrinkle to resolve, I think, in the whole transit conversation. RJ: They are. And scary! It really is scary but, you know, very beneficial because they can take you longer and, you know, longer distances quicker. And you don’t have to be in super good shape to use them. But if you’re not responsible with them, they’re very, very dangerous. SV: Yeah. They’re good for the hills around here too. RJ: Yeah. For sure. I know. Someone said “Oh, yeah, just, you know, ride your bicycle around town.” And I’m like “Yeah. That’s—” We’re very hilly in San Marcos. SV: Yep. (both laugh) All right. So, we talked a little bit about your campaign, that first campaign, in 2008. I guess I wanted to circle back a little bit to even before that, to the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force that you served on from 2005-2007. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: And I was just curious as to what was the goal of the Task Force? RJ: It was to come up with a plan of mixed use and utilizing that entire area which, by the way, you know, we’ve been updating our general plan. We’ve put that on hold for now and we’re going to have a greater emphasis on bringing the Creek District part into that because we do need to update that plan. So, FEMA has updated the flood plain and all of those, you know, different areas are going to be changed due to in a 100-year flood, what happens? You know, if we get the torrential sort of rain that we had, you know, recently, another time or worse than that, oh my gosh. It makes a big difference. We have—excuse me (hiccups) —we haven’t had a situation where it’s flooded all the way from Escondido. But it could very well happen. And so, you know, being prepared is important. You’re not going to build a bunch of buildings in the flood way. It just isn’t going to happen. Currently, there is, you know, the Valley Christian School that’s over there. It’s in the flood way. So, they can’t, you know, change their buildings or anything like that. The reason I bring that up is that’s kind of like the edge of the Creek District area and then it goes all the way over behind Grand, or right around Grand. And there’s actually affordable housing that’s right in that area. So, what we did is we approved a plan for that. And then we also started getting the permits from the agencies so we could build the infrastructure. The infrastructure will be done this year. That’s a big first step in actually moving that forward. But, then again, you know we still need to incorporate the part of the land use changes are going to happen. We also have had people like Gary London come in and say “You’ve got too much commercial to the residential. You’re going to need to make some tweaks.” So, it likely will not build as dense as we had originally approved. So, we really do need to update it and bring in those changes, you know, bringing in the flood plain. And then also the fact that the infrastructure is actually done also changes things too. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, the emphasis will be on getting that updated as well as the general plan. SV: Okay. So, the original goal then with the Task Force and into when you served on it then was to create the plan that is now kind of being put into effect. RJ: Yes, exactly. SV: And did it account for a Creek District at that time? Because the Creek District is going to be like a public/private partnership that will help with development. RJ: Well, there was 62 property owners in there today. SV: Okay. RJ: You know, when we approved that, yeah. It was to bring an it, a place, a place where people could come— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —congregate, as I had mentioned earlier, and really, you know, a space where it would be, you know, open. And, you know, you could have, you know, different community events there and that sort of thing. Also, North City is that way. North City we actually approved as a university district back in 2009. We always thought the Creek would come first. Well, University District has now really become. And again, you know, we don’t even have an actual downtown in San Marcos. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, you know, creating a downtown, creating that space. It looks like North City is becoming that. You know, we’ve got the Belgian Waffle Ride coming this weekend. It’s the largest cycling event in the western United States. It’s a big deal. Thousands of cyclists are coming from all over. They’re going to be eating in our city. They’re going to be staying here. We don’t have a ton of hotels. There are going to be a couple of other ones in North City and then also in the Creek District eventually. But really creating that downtown was one of the things that we really wanted to do. But we always saw North City—a university district back then when we approved it—and then the creek, because they connect. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Having that as a center core for the city. SV: When do you think North City will be built out? RJ: Oof. Well, that depends on so many different things. If I had a crystal ball, I could answer that. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, they’ve been (sighs), they’ve been through a downturn in the economy. They’ve been through a pandemic. You know, they’ve been through a lot. If you go there today, you know, they’ve got several restaurants. They’ve got the only, first of its kind, building with the university which is the Extended Learning Building because there’s nothing like that in all of California. And then you’ve got like Mesa Rim. You’ve got Draft Republic which was the old Urge Gastropub. You have Newtopia Cyder, Fresh Café, Maya’s Cookies, Wynston’s Ice Cream, Copa Vida, Buona Forcbetta, Umami, a lot of things happening there but, you know, not the residences. You have a little bit of residence there. You’ve got the quad, which is university, you know, kids that live there. And then you have Block C. And then you have the block that’s The Wrap behind. And then also, you know, don’t forget too Pima Medical is right there. And then, you know, you’ve got medical offices now, Scripps Health. And so, a lot of things are happening. It really is on the edge of becoming something much bigger. They have broken ground on and they’re moving forward with the first large-scale residential in there. And it’s going to be about 12 stories high. And so that will really be a game changer, I think, for North City. I think that will be what brings the really the grocery store and the other businesses that they need that can actually handle those residents and offer the services that they need. And, you know, that’s always what the Creek was envisioned. I mean these are things that I learned when we were, you know, going on these field trips to old Pasadena and, you know, all these different places that were mixed use because we didn’t really have much mixed use at that time in the city. We have a little bit over off of Mission but it’s very, very small scale. You know, having the meeting spaces, having the, you know, congregation spaces where you can have like an open-air amphitheater, something like that, that’s all things that really we started with the planning of the Creek District. Again, you know, we have to update that. But really—And it, you know, kind of grew into also North City being part of that, being a large scale downtown core area for us. SV: Yeah. There is a lot of construction going on right now. RJ: Yes. There is. SV: You have the infrastructure going on along the Creek District. You have it seems like three or four different projects right around North City and in North City. RJ: Yeah. So, you know, okay. So, back when I was selling new homes in my early twenties, I was working at Discovery Creek, Discovery Trail, so Discovery Hills. And back then we had, you know, this big map that showed everything that was going to happen in the, you know, the adjoining property. Back then, Craven wasn’t even there. I mean this—just to date myself of how long I’ve been around in San Marcos. First moved here in 1987. Just looking at, you know, what it was going to be with Kaiser Hospital, Scripps Hospital which isn’t going to happen now. But they are going to have medical offices, much like Carmel Mount Ranch. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, pretty large-scale medical offices. You know, unfortunately, you know medical is always something that we need. And, you know, fortunately though we’ve got some space to put that. You know, we don’t want people to have to go all the way down to Carmel Mount Ranch to go to a doctor. And, you know, currently Kaiser Permanente doesn’t have a hospital. The nearest one is Mira Mesa. So, 180,000 subscribers in North County have to go all the way there for a hospital. So, it’s going to be opening up in August I’m told. They’ve got a ribbon cutting all scheduled. And the Creek project, the infrastructure, it’s about $112 million to start. That is our largest capital improvement project we’ve ever had. We broke ground on that on my one-year anniversary of taking office as Mayor, which is exciting being that, you know, I’d only been talking about it for 10-12 years (laughs) before that. And, you know, before me many other councils had talked about it. You know, this year is our 60th anniversary or birthday, and our sister city Vista, it’s their birthday as well. We were incorporated on January 28, 1963. And so, here we are. We’re in our birthday year, opening up our largest capital improvement project, opening up our hospital. I mean, a lot is happening. There’s also an extension of Discovery which is about $40 million as well, 30-40 million. That is going from Craven all the way through to Twin Oaks. That’s a big deal too, getting that done. But, you know, we’re trying to move people around in a meaningful way. That will be one of our first corridors that has intuitive lighting, stop lights that will help people get through. But one of the things that I’ve really focused on that I want to get done is to make sure that we’re getting the traffic flow better. Traffic, it does feel like it’s at its worst. That’s one of the things that my opponent was using against me during the campaign. I’m like “Well, we’ve got all this road construction. Sure as heck, we’re going to have terrible traffic right now.” But when it’s done, I believe it will be a significant improvement. You know, getting the flooding to stop so you no longer have that. Being able to have two lanes over Via Veracruz is a big deal. And I remember originally when we were talking about, you know, the Bent Crossing. We talked about a—to save money, well, what if we did an Arizona Crossing, which I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. SV: I’m not. RJ: It would still flood! SV: Okay. RJ: And I said “No. No. No. Let’s, let’s not do that.” So, we were able to apply for federal funds. And so, a lot of it is grant funded but a lot of money also comes from San Marcos residents. So again, you know, back to wanting to spend their money wisely. Helping move them around the city is really important. We appreciate everyone being so patient—not always patient. But, you know, it has been a tough, tough project because we’ve had unprecedented rain this year, of course. Of course, it had to happen! Just when we weren’t expecting it to happen. But, you know, it would have been a heck of a lot worse had we not had the bridge at Bent opened. I think that could have been actually dangerous for our residents if we had not gotten so far ahead on that. But that will be done probably about a July timeframe. So, the infrastructure will be done. The hospital will come right after that in August. I would say it’s a good year, a good year that we’re getting a lot done, you know, the hospital done and everything, just a lot of good things for our residents. And again, you know, the jobs that we’re providing too, that’s a thousand jobs at Kaiser Permanente. So, those are some really good high-paying jobs. I think that’s a huge win. I’m really proud of that. You know, when I first got the call from their west coast person, he said to me “Are you still interested in the hospital?” And I was like “Where do I sign up?” (laughs) Because, yes! Of course, I’m still interested. Anything we can do to help make that happen, you know. And, you know, also having the university have, you know, the nursing program has been really important. And then, you know, also over at Palomar because, you know, these are also the ability to teach, you know, hands on is a big deal. And, you know, we’re becoming a healthcare hub, now, of North County which is great, you know, with the hospital opening up and then Scripps are moving forward with their big medical offices. It’s, you know, again it’s sad that people are not healthy, however good that they have the ability to get those healthcare options close to home. SV: Yeah. RJ: And the good jobs, of course. SV: Yes. RJ: Yeah. SV: Yeah. Definitely. RJ: In fact, my niece actually just got her nurse’s license. So, very exciting. SV: Congratulations to your niece. RJ: Yes, very exciting. SV: I wanted to circle back a little bit to 2018 and just ask you why did you decide to run for mayor then? RJ: Oosh, well, I decided well before 2018. I actually decided when I was getting elected in 2016 as mayor. I talked to my husband at the time and, you know, ’18 was a tough year, I have to tell you. I was finishing up my divorce. He told me he didn’t want to be married anymore in 2017. So, I was in the middle of a divorce. I had to sell the property, buy a property. I moved 10 days after the election. A lot of people don’t know how hard that was. It was really tough. But, you know, what I knew that, again, you know being apolitical, really pretty apolitical, was an important thing for our future. I think also, you know, having these large-scale things coming up. I wanted to see them through. And, you know, I have to tell you, looking back and seeing all that we have been able to accomplish during my time on the council, I’m so proud. I know that when I’m ready to retire, I can look back and be very proud of what I’ve been able to accomplish with very, you know, diverse group of people. We now have three women, by the way, on the city council which is great. But, you know, again, you know, for 2018 having the first mayor that’s a female, that’s pretty surprising. You know, as progressive as the city is and, you know, how entrepreneurial we’ve really been, I always thought it would be Pia Harris Ebert, which she has been a wonderful mentor to me. I can’t express enough how much I value her leadership, all of her 24 years on the city council. But, you know, when she told me she was retiring, I said, “What?? You can’t go!” and she said, “You know what? I can look back and I can be very proud.” I mean we used to be known for our chicken ranch and then our dairy. And that was it! We were known as a chicken ranch and dairy city, not for higher learning education, being a great place to run a family, a great school district. We were never known for that. We were known for other things. So, I really am proud of how we’ve elevated who we’ve become, the city that we are, and all that we have accomplished. And so, you know, I feel like, you know, the things needed to be seen through and now, you know, I’m on my second term as mayor just, you know, getting reelected last year. I am very happy. I’m very happy. But I’m also, you know, as concerned about, you know, creating opportunity for a new team to come in that is like-minded, focusing on us being a safe city, focusing on us being an entrepreneurial city, also making sure that we are serving our community and providing awesome trails and parks and all of that. And it becomes very challenging when you’re an infill city, and as built out as we are. So, you know, it’s got to be, you know, trying to find good people that want to come after me. And that’s, you know, what both Pia Harris Ebert and Hal Martin did. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And I appreciate that. And I take that responsibility very seriously as well. So, that’s what I’m going to be doing the next three years, three and a half years. And then, you know, making sure that we stay focused. And we’re going to have some tough financial times. You know, it’s—business has not come back the way that we’ve all hoped. And so, you know, we hear of layoffs all the time. You know, General Atomics, I think they laid off 400 people last week. That’s a lot! So, having those challenges you really do need to have a good team in there. But, you know, I’m trying to bring other people forward because that’s a big part of, you know, a succession plan. It’s really important. SV: Yeah. You mentioned businesses haven’t come back. Were you referring to from the pandemic? RJ: Correct. Yes. SV: Yeah. RJ: Just not in the way—you know, we do have a lot of businesses that have opened. But, you know, we also lost some. I mean, San Marcos Brewery, I still am sad about that, you know, a long-time business in our city, gone. Couldn’t keep their doors open with the open and closing and all of that. There are a lot of stories like that, unfortunately. And so, you know, being able to support the business community, I work a lot at that. I mean if I—I try to do everything I possibly can to support our businesses. And, you know, it’s not like one business. It’s thousands, you know. We’ve got like four tho—let me think here—four thousand businesses here in the city. It’s a lot! SV: Yeah. RJ: It’s a lot. It’s actually upwards of four thousand. And, you know, many of those are store fronts and they’re very small and, you know, they’re family owned. And, you know, I love that. I love that they’re thriving. I love that they’re doing well. I was actually just at a business opening a couple of weeks ago. The father-in-law of this young woman that just opened a brand-new business, he is a long-time business owner in San Marcos, twenty—I think twenty-six years he’s been in business. So, you know, seeing those generations, you know, staying in the city, opening up new businesses. I love that. But, you know, they’re going to need our help. And, you know, they need us to congregate and go to their businesses and, you know, spend our money here locally. And I try to always, you know, emphasize that. You know, during the pandemic, I tirelessly spent so much time on, you know, media just hey talking about all of our great businesses, and what about this and what about that and you know they need us now. But they need us still now. It’s not going to end. And, you know, a lot of them are really struggling. So, as costs go up, people eat out less. They spend less of their money. And so, we’ve got to remember that, when you can, try to spend it locally, whenever possible. SV: Yeah. I imagine a lot of governance is trying to minimize the bad impacts of change, you know, unforeseen or foreseen. And you talked a little bit about the pandemic. I was curious as to, you know, what you could do to lessen the burden on folks during that time and what you all did do. RJ: Gosh. Wow, we did a lot actually. We were the first city that—you know, we have always had very good reserves. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, that’s something that is because we’ve been very fiscally responsible. That money is for rainy days. And when the pandemic came, that was a rainy day. SV: Yeah. RJ: It really was. And so, we set aside $3 million. We were the first city, I believe. The only other city that may have actually beat us was the city of San Diego. But I think they set aside like $5 million. We set aside $3 million. They’ve got a population of 1.3 million. SV: Yeah. RJ: We have a population of under 100. So, I think we really outshined them in that. And I’m really proud that we did that. And that is, you know, that’s being very, very pro-business. I’ve always been pro-business, you know, being that I owned my own business and I know how hard it was. I thought that was something that we should do. And I wholeheartedly believe it’s the right thing to do for our community. But, anyway, so we did that. And we had business loans. So, it was small business loans up to $50,000, depending on your circumstances. We hired an outside company to do all the credit checks. And just, you know, you couldn’t be late prior to Covid. You know, you had to meet a few guidelines. But we were very intentional about trying to get that money out fast, as fast as possible. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: The federal government didn’t have any money out. And we had already saved a lot of businesses. Then the other thing that we did is we were the first city that had our businesses, as soon as the governor—I remember watching the press conference. And Governor Newsom said, when he was talking about some of the businesses could no longer be operating inside, but he didn’t say outside! I was on the phone to our economic development director, and I said, “I’m thinking we can have outside businesses. What can we do to make this as quick as possible.” And we had people moving their businesses. And it was a lot of services, like haircutting and all of that. And then there was another issue about that because—and, you know, restaurants and everything. But there was another issue with that because they didn’t have their business licenses. So, we were actually fighting to open up. And, you know, I mean, again, tirelessly, the letters that I sent to the governor. I mean, I was on full blown action I felt like the whole time, which is very exhausting. SV: Yeah. RJ: But it was like okay, let’s get those businesses moved outside as soon as they can. And we had businesses and we’re like “Don’t worry about your permit. We’re going to check, make sure that you are following it. Just follow these guidelines and we’ll come and check on you.” We had businesses out there before any other. And we didn’t charge anyone a fee. There were a lot of cities that were out there charging them a fee. We’re like no. We need our businesses to stay in place. We need to support them, and we can’t just say that we’re supporting them. We actually have to do it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, I am really proud that we did that. And, you know again, we didn’t close all of our trails. We were not very out in public, you know, screaming it from the rooftops that we’re open because we didn’t want our city residents to feel crowded because all of the other residents from the other cities were coming, though some people knew about them. It was just—it was important for us to do everything we could to support the community. So, fast forward to when we received our federal funds, we were actually able to take all of those loans and make them grants so they didn’t have to be paid back. That was huge. SV: Yeah. RJ: The other thing that we did is we set aside some of our ARPA funds to help our non-profits. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Because they were really hurting at that time too. And I am so proud of all of the things that we did during the pandemic because it was us being innovative, us cutting through the red tape, and us working hard to support our businesses and our community and our non-profits. Because our non-profits support our residents, right? And then the other thing that we also did is—and it’s not our responsibility, though we recognized that our community, our youth were doing very poorly. You know, I’ve been involved with the Boys and Girls Club for many years. And one of the things that they—I was having a conversation with them—one of the things that they were saying is that many of the kids that are at risk were not checking in. And so, you know, you’ve got parents that are very frustrated. The kids are at risk of being abused or neglected. And you’ve got this ultra tough situation happening. So, the mental health of our community, you know, we’ve really tried to focus on that too. And so, one of the things that we did for our youth in the community is we partnered with the school district, and we are equally funding the mental health program that they have rolled out to help the kids bounce back and figure out. You know, a lot of them are so confused. A lot of them have learning deficits. They don’t know how to articulate that, their frustration, their fear and, you know, just getting sick. You know, a lot of them are terrified of getting sick. And, you know, what is life going to be? It’s very different. SV: Yeah. RJ: You know, back to the whole pivot—I mean, I know pivot is kind of overused during the pandemic, but it’s a real thing. And so, for us as a city, you know, we made an intentional effort to do what we could to also help the kids. And, you know again, I think I told you this a little bit earlier, you know, I had people—I felt like a counselor many times during the pandemic. I had some of our folks calling me up and sending me messages and saying, you know, “I’m scared.” And so, I would check in on people and let them know, “Hey. You know what? You’re seen. You’re heard. We care about you.” So, you know, mayor’s job is not just all legislation. You know, there’s a lot of parts to it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I think something that a lot of people think is really, it’s just all about rules and regulations. That’s all your job is. Well, I think as a mayor especially, and a councilmember to some degree, but I think as a mayor I’m the figurehead pretty much for the city council. A lot of people know who the mayor is, and they might not know who their councilperson is. For me to be the face of our city, out there letting people know that we care about them and letting them know that it’s not all about rules and regulations. We actually had a young man that was murdered within our community by one of his friends. He was in his early 20s. And, you know, we renamed a trail after him, actually the Gratitude Trail in his memory, right there around Discovery Lake because us doing things to help our community heal in tough times, in tragic times, is really important. And I really do think that that’s a part of government that sometimes people are like “Well, I’m a politician. I don’t have to do that.” Yeah, you don’t have to do it. But I think doing it is important because, again, you know, how—you know, during the pandemic, people needed to know we care about you. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: We care about your businesses. We’re all in with you. We’re going to do everything we can to keep you open and do it safely, of course. But, you know, when it was all the big businesses could stay open and then the small businesses were closed. They couldn’t adapt to that! SV: Yeah. RJ: Many of them went out of business. And, you know, so we had to make it so that it’s easy for every small business to get a fair shake, to be treated like a large business, you know, while also following the health order. So, it was a real tough time. And, again you know, back to grief. You’ve got to deal with grief too within a community and figure out how to move people forward. And, you know, one of the things that I think is always important is, even if you’re taking baby steps moving forward, you’ve got to move forward. Whatever that looks like. And sometimes it’s very different than two weeks ago even. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I mean when the pandemic hit, remember, two weeks! Staying home. SV: Yeah. We have a archive that we started mostly with the students, but with community as well, trying to record experiences during that time. RJ: Yeah. SV: And it’s amazing so many students especially writing “I thought I was going to have a two-week vacation and here I am a year later.” And, you know, it’s just— RJ: Yeah. SV: —it’s just a traumatic experience all the way around. RJ: For sure. And, you know, I mean that is a part, I think, of being a mayor during a pandemic that I—you know, it’s kind of interesting. I was on a Zoom with some girl scouts, and they said to me “If you knew there was going to be a pandemic, would you still run for mayor?” (Sean laughs) And it was funny because I didn’t even hesitate and I said, “Absolutely!” SV: Yeah. RJ: And the reason being is because I was the right person at the right time. I am very positive and I’m very—I mean, you know, the glass is not half-full. The glass is almost to the top, right? There’s always a way to bring everyone together. There’s always a way to, you know, encourage people. And, you know, that’s what I did! My job changed. But I kept working. And, you know, there were a lot of people that really needed to be seen and I let them know they were being seen. SV: Yeah. RJ: I think without hesitation I am glad that I was the mayor at that point in time. SV: Mm-hmm. It’s a really interesting thing that you say about there being—I guess you’re saying so your job is obviously legislation. But it’s also emotional labor and care and I’m hearing as well, communication is important. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: What are some other aspects? I guess my question is what would surprise people the most about your job that people don’t know? RJ: Oh, that’s a tough one. Gosh, I don’t even know if I have an answer to that. You know, it’s interesting. So, Jeff Zevely, he’s from Channel 8. He actually was doing a show on our birthday. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And he said to me, he goes “You know, if San Marcos had a cheer squad, would you be on it?” and I said, “I’m the head cheerleader! What are you talking about?” (both chuckle) And he even said to me after the interview, he goes “You were so fast. You didn’t even like stop for one second.” I said, “Well, that’s my job.” My job is to not just deal with all the tough stuff. It’s also to be out advocating that San Marcos is a great place to live. We have so much for—You know, you can start out, you know, as a baby. And pretty soon you’ll be able to be born here (indicates quotations with her fingers), actually born here, because—I mean, I guess you could be born at your house if you’ve got a midwife or something but, you know, it’s not a traditional thing. You could be born here, and you can earn a master’s degree and then you could work here, and you could have a good paying job. Like that is a remarkable thing if you look at our city from our humble roots: one stop light, chicken ranch, the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch right here where the university is today. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And Hollandia Dairy. That’s all we were known for. And so, yeah, I would say a lot of people might not know what that entails but it’s a lot of time and effort. I can assure you of that. SV: Yeah. RJ: Like it’s almost more than the actual job, although I do a lot of reading. So, that’s probably the most time consuming part of my job, you know, because when I show up, you know, I’ve even had people at SANDAG say—that are a different political party than me—say, “You know, I might not—” And actually this happened like maybe, well it’s happened a few times, but in the last couple of weeks, where this man got up and he said, “You know, Mayor Jones—” and I’m like going “Oh gosh. What’s he going to say?” (both laugh) You never know, right? And then he says, “Mayor Jones, even though I philosophically don’t agree with you on everything, I appreciate that you are always prepared, and you know exactly what you’re talking about because you’re prepared.” And it really does require a lot of time and effort. And, you know, there are times I wake up and I’m like “I’m tired today. I don’t want to work.” But I don’t get that luxury. I have to do what I have to do. And I’ve got to pull it together. And it is a very—you know, the cheerleading part of it and I’m not saying it, you know, like a cheerleader—but, you know, being again the spokesperson, the person that’s in the front, the person that’s out and about the most, probably one of the most identifiable positions in the community—even if people don’t know me, they know that there’s a mayor. You know, to be the mayor of such an incredible city, I’m really humbled by it. I really am. But it does take a lot of effort and it does take a lot of, you know, inner strength. And, you know, I had a pretty tough childhood and, you know, I was a latchkey kid a lot of the time. And, you know, my parents got divorced when I was eleven which is a really tough age. And I had a lot of things happen where I just go “Gosh, I wish it wouldn’t have been my life.” However, it was. But you know what? It also gives me the authority when people are, you know, telling me “You know, I’m going through tough times,” I get it! I was there. I’ve been there. And, you know, I think it helps me do a very good job. And, you know, not everyone thinks I do a good job. But I just got reelected so— SV: Yep! RJ: —again, 64% of the vote. I don’t think I mentioned that before. But the largest margin I’ve ever won by, I think that is a testament to how much I care for the community, how hard I work for the community, and the fact that it’s not all about legislation to me. It really is about being the cheerleader and the person that’s out in the front, talking about what a remarkable community we have. And when I say, “the community,” it’s the people. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It’s not me. It’s people that I represent. And I hope that they will always feel like they can reach out to me, and I will always try to help them in whatever I can. SV: Yeah. Thank you. I think I had maybe one or two more questions. But something that I didn’t necessarily prepare to talk about in this interview, I wanted to ask you about was you mentioned you’re the first mayor that was elected that’s a woman in San Marcos history. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: And I was curious if there are considerations that, in your opinion, that women politicians have to take into account that men do not. RJ: Huh! (Sean chuckles) Well… SV: I know that’s a big question. RJ: Well, I’m also not married. So, it actually is quite awkward— SV: Yeah. RJ: —in a lot of ways, you know, because I am out there. It opens it up for—And, you know, there’s a lot of discussion about bias, right? SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: There is still bias against women. It’s sad. But there are. And women politicians! I don’t know if people are surprised all the time. But, I mean, I have been, I mean, I’ve been called names. I’ve been, you know, people try to box me in as I mentioned earlier. It’s hard to believe that it’s 2023 and things still happen the way that they happen because, you know, talking about what I look like, what my body looks like. I’ve had people actually talk about what my body looks like! I’m thinking, wow! You know? Would you say that to your mother? Because I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t. And so, you know, at a job like this that’s very out there, very highly visible—and I am highly visible—you know, I’ve had a few times, very inappropriate comments, inappropriate messages sent to me. And, you know, a couple of times I’m like “Gee, should I be worried?” And I send everything to the Sheriff’s department when I have things that are sent to me that are uncomfortable. But it’s different than being a man. One hundred percent. It’s very different than being a man. I don’t think you have to worry about people talking about what you look like. I don’t think that any man as a mayor would have people sending them messages about what they look like. SV: Yeah. RJ: I don’t think it would ever happen. Now, I don’t really mean if someone says “Oh, I really like how your style.” That’s not sexual. But the truth is a lot of things that are sent are very sexual and I think—I am actually flabbergasted, and you know I’m almost 56 years old. I’m flabbergasted that at 56 years old, as an elected mayor, that I would be treated like this. But it happens! SV: Yeah. RJ: It’s really hard to believe. And, honestly, I feel bad for every woman that is just trying to do a job and it gets distracted and convoluted by people bringing in other things that are just not appropriate. It’s just not appropriate. I mean, talking about what I look like or whether they—I mean, the first thing that someone said to me—I was offended but it was early on—was that my teeth were freakishly white. And I went (makes a puzzled and slightly disgusted look on her face) “Why would someone talk about that?” I don’t even think someone would say that about a man. SV: Yeah. RJ: But I feel like, as a woman, on some level there is this—it’s open to talk about what you’re wearing, what you look like, whether they think you are, you know, someone they would want to date or someone—I mean, like really inappropriate things when you’re just trying to darn well do a job, you know what I mean? So, it really is just hard to believe that here we are in 2025—or 2023. Gosh, I can’t even believe I just said that. (both laugh) SV: What would your advice— RJ: You can cut that part out! (both still laughing) SV: We’ll make a note. What would your advice be to women entering politics? RJ: That’s another tough one. You know, I have a podcast too. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And one of the things about my podcast that I love is that you’ve got women from every different, you know, career, all different political parties. It’s not at all political. But they’re all just doing their job and they found something that they love. So, I guess one of the things that I would tell women that are thinking about politics, if you love it, you should definitely do it because you’re going to be very, very effective when you can put your heart into it. There is a lot of preparation that happens. And like for me, you know, I now am the one with the historical knowledge because I’ve been around so long. There is a lot to learn. I mean, you really do need to try to figure out why things happened. I mean, when I first joined the council, I spent every single Friday, like half a day, with the City Manager because he was with the city for like 24 years to find out everything I could about the why and the how and, you know, just how things happen because I thought that would prepare me which it has. But don’t let the things—I mean, you are going to have to have thick skin. It’s true. You are going to have to have thick skin, thicker than a man that goes into politics. But don’t be deterred by people. You really need to follow what you think is right and bringing in your own style. Like I don’t know anyone that does my job the way that I do it because I do it my way. And I don’t let any political party call me up and tell me what to do. I follow what I believe is right. And I follow the kind of politician that I want to be, though I don’t really consider myself politician, technically I am. But I really just want to do a good job. I want to be prepared. I think as a woman you probably have to be a little more prepared. Otherwise, people will start thinking that “Well, you don’t belong there. You’re not smart enough. You’re not this.” It really is about taking information and making a good decision. If you’re a good decision-maker, you can do this job. You’re qualified. You love the community, you’re qualified. If you are willing to put a lot into it, you’re qualified. Not everyone has that qualification. And when I say qualification, it’s not just what others believe but it’s what you believe on the inside. And, you know again, back to my podcast, my podcast is about elevating women because we really still need elevating. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: As, you know, there’s a lot of talk about, you know, different segments of the population whether you’re a minority, whatever, it really still is about women too. We do fit into that. The equity and the inclusion isn’t all about your race. It’s about also your gender because our gender still is a hinderance. And some people don’t see that. And I wish more people paid attention to that because when you’re a woman, you’re a minority. You really do have more against you than a man that’s a minority. And as a woman that is not a minority, you still have things against you that are something that a man would not experience. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And I wish more people really paid attention to that. But, you know, back to the point of if you’re a woman and you really want to, if you have a heart for politics, you should not let any one person or segment of people deter you if you really, really have the heart for it because you can do it. It just is going to be probably a little harder than it is for a man. SV: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you for that answer. And I think it’s wonderful advice. RJ: Thank you. SV: I’ll give you a much nicer question. RJ: Nah, that’s not a hard question at all! I, honestly, and I really do believe it. I mean, it’s terrible! It really is terrible that we’re still there, in 2023. SV: Yeah. RJ: Why did I say 2025? I don’t know. (Sean laughs) SV: It happens. What is the best day of work that you’ve had? RJ: Oh, gosh. There have been a lot of them. I would say I had a really good one recently. And it’s weird because, you know, it’s always something different. But honestly, when I am out in the community at an event and there are kids and they ask me things like—I was at the Boys and Girls Club and I was, of all things, baking cookies with them. So, let me tell you a little story. So, during the pandemic, we decided at West Lake Village that we, the city, that we were—well, we already knew that we were going to have a long-term lease for the Boys and Girls Club so they could expand their services at that location. And then, when we got some of our ARPA funds, we were like okay, we’ll help them with the TIs (tenant improvements) because then that’ll be good for the community because kids can go there and, you know, spend, you know, more time there. So, anyway, I was like “Oh, they’re going to have a kitchen there.” And I was like “That’s so cool.” So, I called up the director—and by the way, I started a girls mentoring program at the Boys and Girls Club which during the pandemic we had to kind of shut down. But I used my tax refund to put some money into it. And I said to them, I said “You know what would be great?” I go, “I really want to come back and spend more time with the kids,” because I’ve been so busy since I got elected as mayor. I don’t always have time to do all the things I really want to do. And I said, “Can I come back and, you know, bake cookies with the kids?” And they were like “Yeah, sure.” And I said, “So, I want to also donate a mixer.” You know, not all kids get to use a really nice KitchenAid mixer. But it’s really cool to use and to learn and, you know again, like to your point, you know. When you’re a chef, you probably are going to be using one of those at some point in time. So, I was like “I really want to buy one.” I’m like “It’s on my heart. I want to do this.” So, I donated the mixer a while ago. And then I’m like, “Gosh. Okay, it’s January. I need to start figuring out when I’m going to get in and bake cookies with the kids because I really want to do it.” And so, we set up a date. It was right after the darn 78 flooding happened. SV: Oh, yeah. RJ: And CalTrans. And it was that day. It was that day at 4 o’clock. I was supposed to go over there and bake cookies with them. And then I had to cancel because Caltrans had to have this emergency meeting. And I was like on Zoom, and I was like “Oh, darn it.” I’m like “Oh, duty calls.” I’m like “Can we reschedule another day?” So, we rescheduled another day. I get there and the kids are so excited to meet the mayor first of all. And this is, by the way, intentionally in one of our lower income areas of the city. It’s over on Autumn Drive. And they’re like “Do you think I could be a mayor?” And I just got to hang out and talk to them and I’m like—and teach them how to make, you know, how to crack the eggs. They were doing so good. And, you know, so there was about—I think there was like 12 or 14 of them. I’m like “I want to go back and do that like so all the kids that go to that branch have that moment of time with me.” Because I appreciated it as much as they did. And so, for me, the moments like that or when I get to go and talk to, you know, kids that are at the Boys and Girls Club service groups like Girls Scouts, Boys Scouts. All of the kids groups, honestly, those are the best days that I always have. I mean, really, the kids are excited. I’m really excited to hear what they have to say. But I also am getting a different—and back to, you know, my point of going out and door knocking and meeting people and hearing what they have to say about the city. I’m hearing it from kids and they’re going to be 100% honest. SV: Yeah. RJ: They’re not going to sugarcoat it. SV: (laughs) That’s true. RJ: They’re not going to try to fluff me up. They’re not going to try to get something out of me. They are going to tell me exactly what they think about their community. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And you know what? I appreciate that. So, for me, it’s always about the moments with the kids when I get to go out and do things like that. It actually fills me so much more than any other moments because, again you know, you do have to put a lot into it. You know, when you’re out there on—and when I say “on” (air quotes with her fingers) you know, you’re talking to people. And I don’t want people to feel like they can’t approach me. So, I’m very approachable. And that is one of the things that I really do pride myself on. I don’t want anyone to feel like I ever don’t approach—you know, they can’t approach me. And so, one of our community members sent me this message recently and he said to me, “You know,” —his daughter was in the kids mentor, the girls mentor group—and he said “You know,” he goes “it was so cute. My daughter, we were talking about something.” And she’s also a Girl Scout. And he said “Yeah. She says ‘Well, I know the mayor.’” (both laugh) And he’s like “and she was saying this, you know, to my wife and, you know, to—we had friends over and she goes ‘yeah, I know the mayor.’” And he goes “It was the coolest thing because she really felt like she connected with me.” And I’m like “She did connect with me.” and I love that. I love that our kids in the community can feel like they connected with me because I feel like they will never probably forget that. And I oftentimes when I’m places—I actually did this a couple of weeks ago. I was getting some food to go from San Marcos Market. There was a mom and the daughter and I were just kind of talking. And I went out to my car, and I got her one of our city pens and then I said to her, and I say this very often—so, you know, our city emblem is a wayfinding sign, a compass—and I said to her, I said, “Do you know what this is?” I took it back to her. I said, “Do you know what this is?” And she goes, “No.” And I said, “Well, you’ll probably see it on all of our San Marcos signs. It’s a wayfinding sign, so it’s a compass.” And I said, “What it stands for is to discover life’s possibilities. And it’s going to be different for you than it is for me and for your little friends. Every single one of you has something that is your path to success.” And it’s not all—Everyone’s not going to go to a four-year college. I actually didn’t go to a four-year college. But everyone’s going to have a path to success. And I want everyone to know that they’ve got something inside of them that is what their path is and, you know, it might not be traditional. It might be traditional, but it might not. And I want everyone to know that there is their best self. There is a place that is a best self for every single person. And, again, it’s going to be very different for everyone. And, you know, my kids, my daughter just graduated from USD. My son went to Palomar. Totally different kids. Totally different people. But it doesn’t mean that one is going to be more successful than the other. And I want people to know that and believe that in themselves. I didn’t have parents that, you know, tried to make me feel like I could be successful in whatever I did. I honestly believe that my parents just wanted me to get married and have babies. And that was all they really hoped for me. And here I am. I’m the mayor of one of the best cities in the county. And I am so grateful for every moment that I get to spend in the community and encouraging people and spending my time letting them know that we believe in them. We care about them. That’s what my job is in a nutshell. And I know it is kind of back to a different point of what we were talking about. But the truth is every moment that you’re inspiring kids in the community is a win for me. SV: Yeah. RJ: So, those days are the best. And, you know, really I try to—I always carry my pens in the car. I’m like “Wait! Just wait!” I try to throw them, honestly, in my purse sometimes or in my pocket or whatever. I don’t always remember. But I think those moments when you just say that one thing, that could change the trajectory of someone’s life. And I know I remember my fourth-grade teacher, Mrs. Long. Here I am, you know, 56 years old almost. And I remember fourth grade, what she said to me. She said, “You can do bigger things than you think you can.” And I just know that that’s why I am the right person, right now, to do what I’m doing. SV: Yeah. RJ: And I’m so grateful for it. And I really have a hard time believing that I actually am doing this, but I love it. Most days I absolutely love it, SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And there are times when you’re tired and you go “I don’t want to get up today.” But then, you know, you have those days where you really just go “Okay. This is going to fill me in. Now, I can get through another week or whatever.” SV: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you. I think that’s a great sentiment to end our interview on. I did want to ask you just one more question and that is if there’s anything that I should have asked you that I did not. RJ: No, because honestly, you know how I—I think you realize what my style is. (both laugh) if you don’t bring it up and I want to say it, I’ll just bring it in there. So, no, I don’t think so. SV: Okay. RJ: Yeah, I don’t think so. It’s funny. At KUSI, they’re like “Oh, well, we’ll just ask you one question. You just know what to do.” (both laugh) “You know what, you can just get everything you want to say in.” I’m like “Oh, okay. Thanks!” And, you know, by the way, when I was first elected as mayor, I was like “I can’t go on TV! I’m scared to death! I’m going to be sweating. I’m going to be stressed. I’m going to say wrong things.” Like now, I’m like, I laugh about it. You know, what I said. I’m like “Aw, geez. Two thousand twenty-five. What am I saying?” (raises her hands and chuckles) You know, but I used to be really hard on myself. But you know what? I don’t think people really want perfection. They want truth and honesty and authentic. SV: Yeah. RJ: And, you know, I try to be those things. I try to be, you know—I don’t even honestly think about it. I just try not to be guarded when I am—And, you know, if I show up to something, I don’t want to be the person that is like “Cheese!” (motions as if smiling widely for a camera) take a picture and then leave. Like, I’m there to do whatever you need me to do. Like if I need to take out trash, get icky stuff on my hands, I’m going to do it. Like, I want to be fully engaged when I show up to things. And I don’t think every politician is like that. I honestly wish there were more people, not exactly my style, but really having the reason as the reason, as the real reason, you know what I mean? Not like “Oh, I’m looking for my next thing, my next higher office.” (makes air quotes with hands) You know, I am planning on running for county supervisor next. But if I’m not elected, I’m totally fine. I’ve done good. I really do believe that. I really do believe I’ve done good. SV: Yeah. When are you running for county supervisor? RJ: In 2026, when this term is over. SV: Okay. RJ: So, not to worry. I’m not going to skip like in the middle of my term. So, Jim Desmond will be termed out and I’m running for that seat. And, you know, it’s a bigger job but, you know, the good thing is I will get paid for the hours that I work. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And then I have staff. So, I think I can work on the same level, you know, put in the same amount but have more fruit because I have people working for me and I’m actually getting paid for it. So— SV: Yeah. RJ: You know, because we make less than $12,000 a year. I don’t know if you know that. SV: I didn’t know. RJ: Yeah. Yeah. I’m the best value in the county. (both laugh) Everyone’s like—Well, actually a bunch of my friends are like “You’re the hardest working mayor in the whole county!” And I go “Well, you know, yeah.” But, again, I’m not one of those people that shows up and like takes a picture and leaves. That’s just not my thing. SV: Yeah. RJ: I don’t do that. Anyway. Anything else? SV: No. Thank you so much for your time. RJ: Do you feel like you know me now? SV: I do! RJ: Okay, good. SV: I appreciate you spending some time— RJ: Yeah. SV: —talking with us today. And I think this is going to be really valuable to our students and researchers in the future. So, thank you. RJ: Well, again, you know our city has come such a long way. And we really do have a lot to be proud of. And I really do believe that people that live here and I hear it time and time again, showing up at their house and they’re like “I love it here.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: “I love this city. I really wouldn’t live anywhere else.” And, you know, even when they’re upset about things, they still don’t want to leave. They still are very happy. They’re like “But, it’s better than—” You know, blah, blah, blah. Or where else. So, I think, you know, we’ve built a great place. My first house was over behind Fire Station No. 2. (points in front and to the left with her left hand) And now I live over off of La Marie. (points behind her right shoulder with her right hand) So, I’ve had three houses over here. So, I’ve owned four houses in the city. SV: Nice. RJ: I’m definitely not leaving. SV: Yeah. RJ: I love it here. SV: Well, thank you, again. I appreciate everything. RJ: Of course, yeah. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12.xml JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jones, Rebecca. Interview April 12, 2023. Description An account of the resource Mayor Rebecca Jones has been involved in local governance of San Marcos, California since 2005, when she served on the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force until 2007. Jones served on City Council from 2007 to 2018, winning re-election three times. Jones also served as Vice Mayor from 2012-2018, and was elected as Mayor in 2018 and re-elected in 2022. In addition to her role as Mayor, Jones represents San Marcos on the San Diego Association of Governments (SANDAG) Board of Directors and on the SANDAG executive committee and regional planning committee. Jones also sits on the Countywide Redevelopment Successor Agency Oversight Board. In her oral history, Jones discusses the structure of San Marcos's local government and how it interacts with the San Diego County government. Jones recalls her foray into politics and recounts previous elections as well as her service on the San Marcos Creek Task Force. Jones also offers her perspective on public transit, car transit, bike transit, and microtransit, development in San Marcos, and how the she and city navigated the COVID-19 pandemic. Jones delves into her experience as a woman in politics, and her place as San Marcos's first woman mayor, and offers advice to women interested in a political career. Jones also discusses her podcast, cooking, self-care, and the Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-034 Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Economic aspects COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Government policy Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos San Diego Association of Governments Women in politics Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rebecca Jones Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Rebecca Jones Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/077ed05bf3a5fde17082d0253ae4443f.pdf 43177e3c473df256fea7700642f6432e PDF Text Text REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 Sean Visintainer: Okay. This is Sean Visintainer and I’m here today with Mayor Rebecca Jones of San Marcos, California, doing an oral history interview for the Oral History Special Collections Project at Cal State San Marcos. Today is April 12th. We’re doing the interview in the University library. Mayor Jones, thank you so much for joining us today. Mayor Rebecca Jones: Oh, it’s my pleasure. SV: I wanted to start off just by asking you some questions about local government. And I think that it’s something that maybe is a little, at times, opaque to people. And so, I was just curious because local government can look really different depending upon the municipality. For people that are going to watch this video, researchers in the future, could you describe a little bit about how local government in San Marcos happens? RJ: Well, it used to be the great mystery. So, when I actually got involved with the city, I had no idea how local government worked. So, I tried to remember and put myself from that perspective as being just a resident and making things easier. And so, what we do, essentially, is we spend taxpayer money— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —that is from different sources. Most of it is from sales tax. That’s actually where we have our largest amount of money to spend for the residents. But then we also have property tax. And most people don’t know this but out of all of the counties in the city, I believe we are the lowest city that has the smallest share of property tax. So, out of every dollar we get 7.2¢. So, if you look at just that in itself, it really is very important for us to figure out other ways to actually generate revenue. So, we are a charter city. And a charter city allows us to actually have property that we own which is owned by the residents of the city of San Marcos. And all of that revenue that we actually have coming in—so Creekside Marketplace would be an example of that as well as City Hall—but all of that money actually helps augment the very low sales tax that we have. SV: Okay. So, I assume then you have to be very fiscally responsible. RJ: Very fiscally responsible. And so, anyway, our job as a local government is to spend your money wisely; keep you safe which is, honestly, our number one concern in my opinion—it always has been—and then also making sure we have a good quality of life for people. And so, you know, during my time on the council, I always again, you know, try to remember as a resident what is important to our residents. And I actually—this is kind of crazy but when I am campaigning which, you know, I’ve won five elections now— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —when I’m out campaigning, I actually enjoy the part of knocking on a stranger’s door and knowing that I’m going to get some feedback that I might not ever get otherwise. And so, I think it’s really important for me to always remember that part of local government, who you’re serving, which is the residents of the city, but also keeping everyone safe whether you own a business, whether you live here, or whether you’re visiting here. We want to make sure that we have that as our highest priority and, you know, people can drive safely through our community, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 come and shop here. If they’re already passing through San Marcos, which a lot of people do, we want them to, you know, spend a little more money and enjoy themselves. So, just keeping all of that in perspective is always at the front of what I’m always thinking and part of what my leadership is and, you know, just having again a good quality of life where people love to visit, live here, and, you know, a good place to call home. SV: Mm-hmm. Can you speak a little bit to how the process of government works, the City Council, the other people that are involved, the Deputy Mayor, yourself? RJ: Yeah. So, essentially, there is a City Council Manager style government. So, you might hear about like a strong Mayor. It’s not that. There’s only one city in the entire county that has that and that’s the city of San Diego. But a Council Manager form of government, local government, means that there are five council people. We pretty much have the same authority. However, I can put anything on the agenda which I have done in the past. But also, you know, I work very closely with the City Manager. I don’t really have any extra authority. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: There’s a few little things but nothing major. And so, there are five of us that really have to look out for the best of what’s going on in the community. And we actually started districts back in 2018 and that actually changed things a bit, because that was the first time where we had councilmembers that were working specifically and being elected specifically in one area of the city. So, we have four districts and I’m at-large, so I’m elected by the entire city. And so, each one of us, you know, we have things that are important to us. We bring them forward. And then we try to get a consensus on them. My job is to make sure we’re all getting along— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —making sure that everyone’s voice is heard, and then also making sure that, you know, we always are remembering, even if you’re not representing technically District 1, for instance, that really District 2, 3, and 4 also matter. And, you know, we only have a certain amount of money, and we really need to make sure that we’re, you know, spending money where the greatest need is but also not just focusing on one part of the city. SV: Yeah. You spoke about consensus building, and I think that’s really interesting since it seems like a lot of decision making has to be shared decision making in San Marcos. How do you go about building consensus? RJ: Well, the biggest, most important thing, in my opinion, is not being political. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, once you bring political parties into it, you really just spoil everything, to be honest. And so, my job has always been as I’ve seen it is to be apolitical, for the most part. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And then also making sure that we are, you know, again spending money wisely and, you know, really addressing all of the needs and the wishes in the community. And making sure that Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 everyone feels that they’re part of the city is also good, you know. It’s doing well. It’s safe. It’s very important for everyone, like I said, to be safe. I think that has always been super important but even more now than ever because there are a lot of people that don’t feel safe. You know, our world has changed. Laws are not the same that they used to be. And so, it’s really important to make sure that, again, your funding, your fire department, and then also your sheriff deputies—we are a contract city, which let me speak to that for just one moment. SV: Sure. RJ: I’ve had a lot of people during, you know, the downturn in the economy and, you know, during a lot of political things that have happened, saying to me, “Should we have our own police force?” Well, we actually still are one of the cities that has the lowest crime rate in the entire county. And so, that’s an important thing. Are we—what is the need? What is the problem? And so, you know, starting our own department would be very expensive, probably $3-4 million dollars. And, if it’s not broken, why fix it? SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, we actually are very lucky that we have some great captains that have come in. We have them for about two or three years, max. But they always end up being the cream of the crop. They end up moving on and actually being maybe an under-Sheriff or, you know, an assistant Sheriff. And so, you know, we really have had some great, you know, leaders in our Sheriff department. But a lot of people like to come back to our city. They might come here as a young Deputy, move on, and then they like to come back because it is a good place. We do have an excellent relationship with them, with the City Council and the Sheriff Department. And so, I think that really is very telling that, again, back to “if it’s not broken, why try to fix it when you’re doing very well.” And that’s, you know, one of the things that I think you do need to always keep in mind is, when things are going well, pay attention to what actually is working. You don’t have to change everything just for the sake of changing it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But you also don’t need to have things that you look at and say, “Well, we’ve been doing it that way twenty years, the same way, and it doesn’t work.” That’s when you need to pay attention. So, anyway, I’m very happy with our sheriff deputies and then also our fire department too, because they really do bring a sense of wellbeing to our community. SV: Yeah. We had to call the fire department— RJ: Oh no! SV: —not too long ago. They responded very promptly. They— RJ: Good. SV: —were wonderful. RJ: Okay! Well, that’s good to know. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: So, we were very happy with how they did. RJ: Yeah. Good. SV: So, you talked about identifying change and maybe not needing change for the purpose of making change. RJ: Right. Yeah. That’s it in a nutshell. SV: I’m a little bit—I was curious how you identify need. So, it’s important to see what doesn’t need to be changed. But how do you go about recognizing where there is a need? RJ: Well, a lot of it has to do with feedback, to be honest. I mean, really, if you see something that maybe isn’t going as well as you had hoped, I mean a lot of it has to do with how people are feeling in the community. Do they feel like their voices are being heard? And their voice is being heard doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re getting everything that they want. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Sometimes, you have to say no. And, you know, that’s the big picture. We have nearly 100,000 people and we have—you know, that live here full-time, and we’ve got about 40,000 students that are coming in, that go to CSU, to Palomar College and all of our other higher learning institutions. It’s a lot of people. That’s really about 140,000 people that are, you know, coming into our city every day, whether they live here full-time or not. You know, you have to figure out how you serve them. So, again, you know, are you providing opportunities for them to actually enjoy themselves, have recreation. You know, we are actually known for our parks, which I think is really important at keeping people out and active. And, you know, during the pandemic for instance, many of the cities were closing their trails and their parks. We followed the health orders, but we kept our trails open, and we kept our parks, for the most part, open. We did close our climbing structures and that sort of thing. But we always felt that it was very important to keep people out and active and having those opportunities because mental wellbeing is important in a community. But then, also having opportunities for people to open businesses. And you know, one of the things that I’ve been talking about for years—and this year it is our first time; we’re actually calling it one of our goals— and that’s concierge service, that is the customer experience because the customers are the community. And then, also, the business owners, when they come into City Hall, do they feel welcomed? Do they feel like it’s easy for them? They get the support that they need to open a business. Or, if they’re making changes to their property or something like that, are we doing everything we can? And, again, do they have that concierge experience? And so, we’re doing a lot of different things. We actually are just launching something in the next couple of weeks that will help people understand more about conditional use permits and opening businesses and finding out where their dream can come true of opening a business in the city and where it’s actually available to already open pretty easily, or where it might take a little more work on their end. And so, you know, we just are trying to always make that experience a little bit better. And, you know, I’m really proud of all the work that we’ve done since I’ve been on the council. This is my 17th year on the city council. And so, it’s been a long time. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I remember when I first joined the council, I was the only woman at the time. And I remember saying “Well, you know it would be great if we had good customer service.” And at the time, that did not go over very well (Sean chuckles). There was this “Well, what is that all about?” And, you know, now if you look forward, you know, to where we are today and how important that is to us, we’ve changed a lot. And so, you know, again, changing things that you identify as having issues and it’s not just what I think. A lot of it really does have to do with getting feedback from our community. SV: Mm-hmm. How do you solicit feedback? RJ: Well, I try to make as many—myself—as available as possible. And, you know, we talked about this a little bit earlier about, you know, being available. This is a full-time job. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It could happen in a grocery store. It could be happening at the park. Wherever I am, I know that it is important for me to be available. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, Chamber of Commerce events. Really anywhere is a way. I have a very opendoor policy, emails, social media, even though I don’t love social media. It does offer a way for people to connect with me. And so, I think, again, that is really important. You know, and then my cell phone. I have it on my cards. I give it to everyone. I have a lot of people that just reach out to me and say, “You know what? I met you at this event. You gave me your card because I asked for it. I didn’t really feel comfortable discussing this with you. But here’s what I’m thinking.” And I think that is, in itself, being a mayor of the people. Being available is so important. And, again, you know back to the point that I made a little earlier as well, and that is being as apolitical as possible. I really do believe that that’s the best way that you can serve your community. Not making anyone feel left out and bringing everyone together and being that consensus builder is really important. So, I work very wholeheartedly and very diligently at doing that. SV: Yeah. So, you’re pretty much always on duty. RJ: I am. SV: Yeah. RJ: I am which, you know, makes it difficult. It is a hard job— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —to do, you know, pretty much all day every day. But, you know, I have to say I look around the city and I do have to pinch myself sometimes, thinking “You know, I was a part of that.” And “Oh, I was a part of that.” I mean, I really am proud of what our community has become. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, and we really have grown significantly. We are a college town. And then, you know, we’ve really done a good job, I think, at juggling following state mandates, making sure, again you know, our community is a good place to call home, also to do business in. You know, it really encompasses a lot of different things. But I’ve been very intentional about, you know, making the things that are important to our residents important to me as well. SV: Mm-hmm. Could you talk a little bit about how the city government functions within the larger context of, I guess, the county? RJ: Oh yeah. SV: You know, how the different municipalities interact and then how the county government as well, functions with the city. RJ: So, all mental health is handled through the county. That’s probably the biggest difference of the county and then cities. So, there are 18 cities plus the county. And then what we have is several different, you know, regional groups that we are, you know, part of. So, one being SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) which is mainly transportation. And then you’ve got also North County Transit which is for North County. And it’s our transit operator. And so, and then there’s like the water—we don’t actually have our own water department. So, Vallecitos Water District handles that. We are a little different than some cities. Like the city of Carlsbad, they also serve the water as well. But we don’t do that. You know, just really the biggest thing is when we’re on a board together, you have to wear a regional hat. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You have to figure out—because we don’t work independently as silos. We do work together. You know, when you look at transportation in itself, you know a lot of people drive cars, about 97% of the county, about only 2-3% honestly actually use transit. It’s not a system that actually runs often enough for it to be, you know, serving most people for their lives. Plus, a lot of people have lifestyles that really it doesn’t fit within their lifestyles. But then there are a lot of people—well, not a lot, but the people that do use public transit, they really do rely on it. So, we need to figure out how to serve everyone. And so, you know, is there a possibility of having a transit system that actually can attract more riders? I believe so. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But it also relies on people making that shift. We need to make sure it’s safe. There is a lot of people that believe that only people that are homeless ride on public transit. That’s not the case. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Though there are some. I’m not going to pretend that there isn’t. There definitely are. But how do we make it more meaningful and easier for people to use it? So, we do need a balanced transportation system like I said. And that’s not punishing car drivers and trying to force them out of their cars. It’s not going to happen. Many people, especially people I think with kids, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 really rely on that, you know, getting their kids where they need to go. And I, you know, my kids—I have, well, I’ll just give you an example. I had a soccer player and she played competitive soccer, my daughter. And then my son was a surfer. And so, two very, very different, you know, life sorts of things that they like to do. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, for me, I was always driving. I was always driving, you know, a big SUV because usually I was like “Hey, you know what? I’ll pick up your kids too.” So, you know, for practices and all of that for my daughter, I did a lot of carpooling. With my son, not so much because he wanted to go, you know, when he wanted to go. So, you know, I’d go and try to run errands while he was at the beach. And then I’d go back and pick him up. So, you know, a lot of different lifestyles have different needs. And, you know, so that’s one of the things that I always try to mention when I’m on that SANDAG committee. I’m on the Board of Directors as Mayor. And I try to say, “Remember. Let’s not forget about, you know, the parents. Let’s not forget about our retirees. We really do need a transportation program that fits everyone’s needs.” And it is tricky. But I think it can be done. But our new regional plan, I think that it really does punish car drivers in a lot of ways. And we really need to bring more transit, in my opinion, up to North County. And what I’ve been talking about for quite some time, and it actually will be rolling out pretty soon, is having micro-transit within cities because that is a way for you to actually get where you need to go within the city. It’s not going to take you to work or anything like that. But, you know, on your short trips, you know, getting for instance our kids to school because the school district has very little busing. They are starting to bring some of it back. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But that really is only for the elementary kids. So, you know, the older kids, the middleschoolers, the high schoolers, how do you get them to school in a meaningful way? And I think micro-transit is a way to do that. But it’s also a way for people like if you want to go out and have dinner, have that glass of wine. You don’t have to drink and drive! You don’t have to call an Uber. If you’ve got a system that actually is on demand, it will meet those needs. And I think it would serve our community better. So, I think having more conversations about, you know, different aspects of a transportation plan that fits really the needs of the community like microtransit and then also autonomous vehicles. They are the future more than I think fixed rail or fixed routes on buses. I think it really does lend better to peoples’ lifestyles. So, you know, keeping that in mind, that’s what we do at SANDAG. But then also at North County Transit. It’s all about the same things that I just mentioned about transit. But, you know, working with other cities it happens a lot. We also have something on the 78 corridor that is something that not the rest of the nation has. I think it’s one of a kind. And it is that cities work together. And so, Innovate 78 (multi-city partnership supporting business ecosystem along the Highway 78 corridor) started. And it was really about attracting business to the region. I call us the “upside” of San Diego because we’re North County. SV: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: We’re very close to Riverside and to Orange County. And, you know, we really have a different bit of lifestyle. A lot of people that really enjoy the urban living don’t really enjoy it as much in North County. But we also, you know, we have a lot of space for jobs and, you know, we also have a lot of homes. And so, a lot of people, you know, North County is a little more affordable. As you get east of the 5, it, you know, gets a little more affordable. East of the 15 is a little more affordable. But, you know, also trying to figure out how to balance, again, the transportation, getting people to work, and all of that is a consideration. But, you know, when you have large cities like Carlsbad where they have a lot of jobs, where are those people going to live? Well, a lot of them do live in San Marcos, for instance, or Vista. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, you know, Innovate 78 was all about trying to figure out how to attract businesses. If the city of Vista has a business or the city of San Marcos has a business within our city, we can’t find the proper amount of land for them because they want to grow. We work together and our Economic Development Directors work together to figure out where can we move them to stay in North County, so they don’t have to disrupt their workforce, so they don’t have to disrupt their lifestyles. How can we work together to make that happen? And it has been very successful. I’m very proud of the work that we’ve done. And, you know, it has been recognized that we have done some really good work together. SV: Yeah. So, is Innovate 78 like a—is it a formalized structure? Do you have meetings that happen on a regular basis? Or is it more of a—I don’t know exactly what I’m trying to ask you here. RJ: I know what you’re trying to—So, we don’t have—Okay. So, there are quarterly meetings where it’s the mayors, generally, but not always, and council members. So, they kind of cycle in. And then they’re hosted in all the different cities. That’s a quarterly thing. But our Economic Development Directors and staff work actually—they do have monthly meetings. So, they do work together on a very, very regular basis. And, you know, that, again—You know, we’re policy makers. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, it’s not imperative that we are there all the time, you know, at a monthly meeting or something like that. It is when it comes to transportation like SANDAG but not with Innovate 78. And again, you know, there’s a lot of work that has gotten done where, you know, businesses rather than them, you know, locate elsewhere like another county or something like that or, you know, maybe in South County, we’ve been able to keep and retain them here in North County which is a good thing. SV: Yeah. That is a good thing. RJ: Yeah. SV: You talked about micro-transit. I just wanted to clarify what that is in case it becomes available. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: Oh, micro-transit is like a small shuttle sort of bus. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Not a big full-sized bus but more of a smaller bus. And it would be—and what North County transit is going to be—Have you ever seen the Carlsbad Connector? SV: I haven’t. RJ: Okay. Well, it’s kind of a, it’s a smaller bus and it would be on demand. That will be rolling out in San Marcos. SV: Okay. RJ: Through North County Transit. SV: Okay. When will that roll out? RJ: Actually, sometime probably fall or early next year. SV: Very cool! RJ: Yeah. SV: I wanted to ask you a little bit about your journey into politics. RJ: Oh my gosh! Yes. Everyone says, “What made you— SV: Yeah! RJ: “—want to be in politics?” Well, I could tell you this much. I never did. (laughs) It’s one of those things that I just kind of fell into. And so, what ended up happening is I was a young mom, and really, I didn’t even know how local government worked. I didn’t know what city government handled. I didn’t know anything about anything. And there was a public notice in the park next to my home. And, you know, I had a baby at home and a four-year-old. And I was like “What’s going on? What is happening?” you know. And some of my neighbors were saying “Oh, we don’t want this in our park.” And I said, “Well, what’s even going on?” And then, as I started delving into it and I got more information and I actually figured out what was going on, I went “Yeah. I don’t like that for the park either. I’m not in love with that.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, it really was being involved. I sat down with all of the council members at the time and I had two council members, a Republican and a Democrat, say to me, “Rebecca, you should get involved in politics.” And I said, “I have you. Why would I do that?” And they said, “Well, we’re definitely not going to be doing it forever.” I think both of them were probably right around 20-25 or 24 years, you know, being involved in the city. And I was like “Why? Why won’t you do this forever?” And they said, “Well, you know, it’s a big job. However, when you really want to help shape the community, it’s a good thing.” SV: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: And so, I had both of them, you know, talk me into it. First they kind of “voluntold” me. And I actually first joined the San Marcos Creek District Task Force, originally. And I thought that was really interesting because I learned a lot about land use, a lot about, you know, just creating spaces where people could come and, you know, congregate, and really making a community a place where people can, you know, meet up with their friends and, you know, have those restaurants and those spaces that are, you know, beautiful and, you know, signature to the community, very unique. And I really liked that. And so, I was like “Okay. Well, I do like this.” And I have to tell you, my background is that I was a new home sales agent when I was in my early twenties. SV Mm-hmm. RJ: And then, my ex and I started a furniture marketing company which became very successful. We had customers. We started out with zero sales. We actually built that into a $100 million dollars a year in sales with Walmart, Costco, BestBuy as some of our customers. So, it was a pretty lucrative business. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But, you know, it was really hard. And I remember when he came home one day from work, he said, “You know, we’re going to start our own business.” And I went “We??” And, you know, at that time we only had one child and he was one. And he said, “Yes. You’re going to do all of the business part of it. And I’m just going to do the sales.” And I went “Oh. Okay.” And I go “You know, I don’t know how to work a computer.” And he said, “Nah, that’s okay. You’re smart. You could figure it out.” And that’s, you know, that’s really how it started. And so, I’ve always been kind of a, you know, very I would say involved person. If someone, you know, gives me a challenge or a task, I will go all in, and I’ll make sure I’ll do a good job. I’m very conscientious. And so, that really is how it started. Started out, you know, had that background of business in my, you know, my marriage and owning it. And then, I just went “Well, you know what? It’s time for me to give back. It’s time for me to be part of the solution rather than, you know, trying to stop things that are happening, you know as far as development goes.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, there were a couple of other things. The second Walmart, I didn’t agree with that. I didn’t think the placement was correct. And then there was the Robertson’s Ready-Mix batch plant over on Barham. And I said “Yeah. This is negative. I’d rather be positive.” I don’t like negativity, as you could probably tell. I’m a very positive person. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And you know what? I just knew that it was probably the right thing to do. And so, I ended up actually applying for an appointment because my ex had gotten sick in 2006. So, I wasn’t able to run a campaign that year. And I applied for the appointment in 2007. I was selected. And then I have run five campaigns since then and been elected five times. So, I must be doing something right. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Always been the top vote getter, even if it was for two seats and, you know, I would say that no one outworks me. No one immerses themselves more into trying to be involved and prepared. And so, I think that sets me apart because I really am not a politician. I’m just a person that loves the community and wants to give back and has found a way that I can do that. SV: And you said that you applied for the appointment for city council, if I’m understanding correctly. RJ: Correct. SV: So, what is that process like? RJ: Boy, was that fun. I’m just kidding. (both laugh) So, you filled out an application and then you talked about your experience and what you wanted to bring to the table. And at that time, it was an interesting time. So, Jim Desmond had just been elected as mayor. And, you know, it was—there were four men on the council. Pia Harris-Sebert was our first woman ever elected to the city council. And she was the first woman, but she was really the only woman for quite a while. We did have Betty Evans that, I think, served one or two terms in between. But she wasn’t on there. And so, it was really—there were four men left on the city council. And, you know, Jim Desmond was talking about diversity back then. And, you know, he said, you know, I like what Rebecca brings to the table, the business background, which is really important. And I think everyone should have at least some sort of background as far as how you spend money. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, it’s—you don’t have a ton of money to spend and, you know, really being able to figure out how to best spend that. You know, when you’re a business owner and especially when you’re starting out a business, you are pretty much trying to figure out how you’re not going to starve. And so, that really does bring an interesting perspective, I think, to the table. Anyway, and so, I was selected. There were 27 applicants. I got up to the podium and one of the council members actually had a lot of disagreements with me. He was supportive of the second Walmart. And, you know, he brought that up. He said “Well, you know, Walmart, they’re one of your customers. They must be very forgiving because you didn’t agree with the second Walmart.” And I said, “Well, you know, it doesn’t mean that I’m against Walmart. It just meant that I didn’t think the location was okay.” And those two things—you can still feel both things and believe in both things. It doesn’t mean that you don’t like Walmart. I mean, there are a lot of people in my community that love Walmart. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, whether I’m a Walmart shopper or not, a lot of people want to shop there. And so, you know, I think it’s really important that you have a good mix of businesses. And, you know, I think I brought that to the table. But I also, you know, brought forward the part of—I really cared about, you know, being able to represent everyone. And I think I’ve been—It has been a very valuable voice at that table. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 11 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Mm-hmm. So, there’s not an election process for city council? Or there wasn’t at that time? RJ: Not for an appointment. No, not for an appointment. SV: Oh, because Desmond— RJ: Because I’m in an appointment. SV: Okay. Gotcha. RJ: Yeah. So, right now, there is a supervisor seat that is going to be vacated. So, there would be an opportunity for either an appointment or a special election. At that time, a special election was gauged to be around $300,000. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It’s very expensive. If you can come up with an agreement on an appointment, it makes sense, if you can come to an agreement. But it doesn’t always happen. SV: Yeah. So— RJ: And, you know, a lot of people have been appointed and have not been able to get elected. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I think there were people that actually spoke against my appointment that when they saw what I did in my first two years, before I had my first election, they went “Wow. Okay.” And they’ve been some of my biggest supporters, to be honest. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, that does actually feel good because people do recognize how hard I work. It does feel good to have that recognized. SV: Yeah. So, then you ran for reelection then around 2009 or so? RJ: 2008— SV: 2008. RJ: —then ’12, and then ’16. I was elected as a woman’s—or as a first woman mayor in our city— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —to ever serve as mayor in 2018. And then, I was reelected last year, in 2022. SV: So, what does an election look like from your perspective when you’ve decided—let’s take your first time that you’re going after your appointment when you’re going to be reelected or elected to the city council? RJ: Oh, boy. It’s a lot of fun. So, first of all, you know, you need to raise money. So, do people believe in you? Because they’re not going to definitely, you know, donate to your campaign if Transcribed by Melissa Martin 12 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 they don’t believe in you. So, the good thing is I did have a record and I was able to point back to that. But not only was I able to point back to that, I was able to point back to the success in my business, how hard I’d worked, and all of those things. And, you know, it’s really important, I think, that you do connect to the community because at the end of the day you can raise all the money in the world but if you don’t have the votes, it’s really irrelevant. And so, can you get— And, you know, every single time—and I’ve run five elections—I’ve thought, “Oh my gosh. I’m losing. I’m losing!” (throws her head back and laughs) I’ve had, you know, like—I remember my first campaign. Oh my gosh. I showed up to this one woman’s house. This is really deflating. And she says to me “Oh, I already voted. And I didn’t vote for you.” (Sean chuckles) And I went “Oh. Okay.” (chuckles) And then I walked away, and I thought “Shoot! You know, why didn’t she even give me a chance to tell her about myself.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, so it’s a very humbling experience. And, honestly, I would say equally humbling is actually serving because really, you know, to have people believe in you and when they say to you, “You know what? I love what you’re doing in our community” it really does feel amazing because, again, you know back to your hard work but also, I do love the community. And I do want it to be the best that it possibly can be. And so having that part acknowledged is really important to me too. But, again, very humbling. And, you know, so every single campaign I’m like “Okay. Well, if I just go by what people are saying at the doors, I’m winning! Like I’m winning!” And then I’m like “That could not be how it is. They could just be saying that to me.” And so, you know, it really is a hard thing. And not everyone can put themselves out there. It’s nerve wracking. On that election night, you’re going “Okay. Waiting for the first numbers to come up. What’s it going to be?” And, you know, I have to say my fifth election, you know this last one, it was very ugly. It was very unfair because I was, you know—it was a smear campaign, honestly, on my integrity and what I had done for all these years and trying to paint me into a box. I don’t fit into a box. I’m going to be totally honest about that. I don’t fit into a box. I’m not a politician, don’t want to be a politician. I want to be a civic leader and someone that will read everything and make good decisions for the best of everyone. And, you know, you’re not going to make everyone happy. That part is kind of hard in elected office. But if you’re making most people happy and you’ve got a safe community, a thriving community, at the end of the day that’s all you can really hope for and, you know, again making most people happy but there are going to be some people that don’t like you. I’ve had people actually comment about what I look like which is very insulting. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: What I look like has nothing to do with the kind of job that I do. And, you know, trying to call me little nicknames and that sort of thing, I’m not a robot. I am a person so it does hurt a bit. But, you know, at the end of the day I do remember, you know, some people aren’t going to like me. That’s okay. I just know, at the end of the day really, if I go to bed and I know that I’ve done a good job that day, I wake up the next day and it’s a new day and, you know, I can let things go which it does take that in this job. You do have to let a lot of things go. You know, the personal insults really don’t matter, I guess, at the end. But, you know, I’m not a robot so it does affect me Transcribed by Melissa Martin 13 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 a bit. And, you know, you do have to really remember just to stay true to yourself. And I really am very proud that I have done that. SV: Yeah. What is your process for self-care when you’re having a negative day or a stressful time? RJ: Well, as I mentioned earlier, I have to get to the gym. I mean, I’m just one of those people, if I don’t get enough exercise I will literally overthink things. And so, for me, I’m really getting to the gym. And my gym! Oh, gosh. So, during COVID(-19 Pandemic), closed down in San Marcos. And I was like “Okay. I’m going to go to another one of them.” It was in Encinitas. But I really am very specific because it’s not a super long workout and I can do it whenever, you know, pretty much during, you know, business hours. But I like to be able to go and punch bags (laughs) and kick bags. It’s a kickbox workout. So, I’m not like punching someone. I don’t want to do that. But I do, you know—it’s a kickbox workout. So, now, I found another one. It’s in Rancho Bernardo. So, it’s not in the city which can be kind of beneficial because, you know, I’m not sweaty and looking like a mess. And then, you know, if I’m like I’m punching and I’m having an especially frustrating day, I can do that. The other thing I really love to do is hike. I admittedly have not hiked in a very long time. I actually, a few years ago, hiked in the Tetons. So, I had to do a lot of training for that. So, I was out on the trails two and three times a week which it’s actually better for me when I can find that time. The job is very, you know, —it does entail a lot of time for me. So, it is tough for me to actually do that during the day. And, you know, when we have rainy weather, that doesn’t help. Or weather that’s too hot, that doesn’t help. So, you know, really trying to find the time to at least do that. And then I love to cook. So, during the pandemic, I started cooking for a few elderly people. And so, I have some folks that I cook for. And when I need a mental health moment, I just go in my kitchen and I just cook up a storm and several meals and I mean soups and I just try lots of different, new recipes and find things that I can tweak and make my own. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But those are the things that I do. I do try to do that. I don’t get massages. I really need a massage many times though. I don’t really take the time to do that. So, really, the biggest thing is exercise and then getting that cooking in. You know, and then everyone benefits from it. SV: Yeah. RJ: Because I’m actually not a bad cook, so— (chuckles) SV: So, what’s your best dish? RJ: Oh, gosh. Well, that has evolved. I don’t know. I’ve become quite the soup maker. But I do have my tried and true. I’m really good at prime rib and au gratin potatoes. My kids are always like “Mom” —and, you know, they’re older. They’re twenty. Actually my daughter will be 23 in a few weeks, and my son just turned 27. You know, whenever they, you know, want a good meal, they’re like “Mom. Could you make this? Or can you make that?” and then I made chicken fingers for the first time ever. And they’re like “Mom. These are like the best I’ve ever had.” So, anyway, I’m like “Well, I could teach you how to do it.” And so, you know, I’ve had them over a Transcribed by Melissa Martin 14 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 couple of times and, you know, teaching people to cook, honestly is—You know, there are a lot of people that don’t cook in this world, and I think, you know, the less we eat processed food, the better it is for us. And so, I like to, you know—I cook almost solely organic. I try not to eat heavily processed food. I think it’s better for me. You know, I’m going to be 56 next year—Oh, oh my gosh. Not next year. This year! Oh, gosh! In a few weeks. Oh, gosh, about a month. So, yeah. I’ll be 56. You know, I think our bodies can actually be healthier and mentally better when we’re, you know, putting the right food in them and then also getting exercise too. So, I try to definitely do all that to take care of myself. I know that’s a long story but those are the things that I do. (chuckles) SV: Yeah. Well, thank you for answering. And I asked the food question because I used to be a chef. So, I’m always interested to know about people’s experiences. RJ: Oh, wow! Nice. Nice. SV: And then exercise, I agree. I mean, it’s so important. I think to bring it back to our interview, you know, something that I take advantage of is the bike lanes. RJ: Oh, yeah. SV: And I was curious as to what your—You know, you’ve talked about transit. You’ve talked about micro-transit and, you know, what your priorities are in terms of pedestrian and twowheeled transit as well. RJ: Yeah. Thanks for asking that. So, actually, at SANDAG, this is kind of interesting, I had actually voted against spending $140, I think it was $140 million dollars on bike lanes. And I had one of our residents send me a message. And he said, “You’re the worst mayor ever!” And I was like “Oh. Wow.” And he said, “I can’t believe how you don’t like cyclists.” And I said, “Well, that’s not exactly how that went.” And so, I explained, you know, that there’s no reason that bike lanes should be costing $5 million dollars a mile. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: That’s way too expensive. There’s no way that should be happening on a road that is literally already there. So, I said, you know, I had an issue with that. I have a real problem spending money in a wasteful way. And, you know, so I said, “Hey, let’s meet.” I sat down with him. He’s now a fan and definitely not, you know, against me any longer because he didn’t really know all of the reasons that I felt the way that I felt. I think getting input from cyclists is really important. You know, again, back to the point that we have 72 miles of, you know, trails. Those are often times, you know, available for cyclists and, you know, pedestrians, hikers, even horses because we still have horses in San Marcos. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, I am really proud about that. The one thing that, you know, I’ve done a lot of research on the different types of bike lanes, and I’m not sold on the cycle tracks. A lot of times the very serious cyclists are saying to me, “Rebecca, they’re very dangerous because you are confined in a space.” They look safe. Maybe for kids they’re safe. But they’re very expensive, first of all. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 15 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 And they really are not super safe because if you hit that curb for whatever reason, you could be thrown off of your bicycle and end up in the middle of a lane. That’s not very safe. Or there is a lot of crashes if you’ve got like—you know, most cyclists are in packs. Hardly anyone goes by themselves. I have a lot of friends that are very serious cyclists that, since this whole thing came forward, I’ve actually just from my friend group—and I do have some serious cyclists now in it. And they don’t really like those tracks. So, in my opinion, any time that we can have a sharrow, which is the bike lane that is a full lane with cyclists in it and then a car only lane, I think that’s probably a really good idea. Any time we can have a split because you’re not limited on space or real estate and have, you know, a separate bike lane that’s by itself but without all of the little candlesticks and the curbs and all that, I think that’s a good idea. It’s not always possible because a lot of times you’re putting them in after the fact. I would like to see more education. I am concerned that some people get really upset with cyclists. And some cyclists—I have to tell you. I actually had a property down at the beach, a second property, with my ex and, you know, every time I would go to back out of the driveway cyclists would come and they would like not pay attention to me. And I would go “Well, they’re not the only one on the road.” And then I would see them running stoplights and stop signs. And that actually upsets motorists. I hear people say it all the time. And I go, “I get where you’re coming from. However…” You know, I try to defend cyclists. But, you know, if we all ran by the same rules or all, you know, followed the same rules, that would actually be optimum. You’re probably never going to see that, you know. There are always people that are going to break rules. It’s just how it is. And they shouldn’t spoil it for everyone. And so, you know, I have to say I am very, very careful around cyclists, and I really wish everyone was because the truth is a cyclist is never going to win against your car. SV: Yeah. RJ: It, you know—And, you know, as soon as, you know, you hear of, you know, a cyclist getting hit by a car and they’re like “Oh, it’s obviously the car’s fault.” Sometimes it isn’t. I mean, really sometimes it isn’t. You know, sometimes yes, sometimes no. But I do think we need to, again, create the opportunities, education and, you know, let’s just get into eBikes for one second. The kids should not be on the eBikes that are above their ability. It is a moving vehicle. It is like being on a moped or a motorcycle. I am—oftentimes, I see the kids, you know, going wayward and crazy on them. And you know what? It’s a recipe for disaster. And then, you know what? There are accidents that happen. And, you know, it shouldn’t be all on the driver. The cyclists, you know, including the eBikes really need to be responsible. I really would love to see more education in that. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: I have brought that up numerous times. I think the school district really should take a lead in this. I know our deputies at our Sheriff’s station do it as well. But, you know, a lot of kids are riding them to school. And it’s very dangerous. Parents, pay attention! (laughs) SV: Yep. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 16 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: They just think, “Oh, it’s just a bicycle.” It’s really not. And it really is very dangerous and, you know, we can’t parent the kids. That’s not our job. The parents need to parent their kids and they need to teach them how to be responsible with their bicycles, their eBikes especially. SV: Yeah. eBikes are a new wrinkle to resolve, I think, in the whole transit conversation. RJ: They are. And scary! It really is scary but, you know, very beneficial because they can take you longer and, you know, longer distances quicker. And you don’t have to be in super good shape to use them. But if you’re not responsible with them, they’re very, very dangerous. SV: Yeah. They’re good for the hills around here too. RJ: Yeah. For sure. I know. Someone said “Oh, yeah, just, you know, ride your bicycle around town.” And I’m like “Yeah. That’s—” We’re very hilly in San Marcos. SV: Yep. (both laugh) All right. So, we talked a little bit about your campaign, that first campaign, in 2008. I guess I wanted to circle back a little bit to even before that, to the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force that you served on from 2005-2007. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: And I was just curious as to what was the goal of the Task Force? RJ: It was to come up with a plan of mixed use and utilizing that entire area which, by the way, you know, we’ve been updating our general plan. We’ve put that on hold for now and we’re going to have a greater emphasis on bringing the Creek District part into that because we do need to update that plan. So, FEMA has updated the flood plain and all of those, you know, different areas are going to be changed due to in a 100-year flood, what happens? You know, if we get the torrential sort of rain that we had, you know, recently, another time or worse than that, oh my gosh. It makes a big difference. We have—excuse me (hiccups) —we haven’t had a situation where it’s flooded all the way from Escondido. But it could very well happen. And so, you know, being prepared is important. You’re not going to build a bunch of buildings in the flood way. It just isn’t going to happen. Currently, there is, you know, the Valley Christian School that’s over there. It’s in the flood way. So, they can’t, you know, change their buildings or anything like that. The reason I bring that up is that’s kind of like the edge of the Creek District area and then it goes all the way over behind Grand, or right around Grand. And there’s actually affordable housing that’s right in that area. So, what we did is we approved a plan for that. And then we also started getting the permits from the agencies so we could build the infrastructure. The infrastructure will be done this year. That’s a big first step in actually moving that forward. But, then again, you know we still need to incorporate the part of the land use changes are going to happen. We also have had people like Gary London come in and say “You’ve got too much commercial to the residential. You’re going to need to make some tweaks.” So, it likely will not build as dense as we had originally approved. So, we really do need to update it and bring in those changes, you know, bringing in the flood plain. And then also the fact that the infrastructure is actually done also changes things too. SV: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 17 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: So, the emphasis will be on getting that updated as well as the general plan. SV: Okay. So, the original goal then with the Task Force and into when you served on it then was to create the plan that is now kind of being put into effect. RJ: Yes, exactly. SV: And did it account for a Creek District at that time? Because the Creek District is going to be like a public/private partnership that will help with development. RJ: Well, there was 62 property owners in there today. SV: Okay. RJ: You know, when we approved that, yeah. It was to bring an it, a place, a place where people could come— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —congregate, as I had mentioned earlier, and really, you know, a space where it would be, you know, open. And, you know, you could have, you know, different community events there and that sort of thing. Also, North City is that way. North City we actually approved as a university district back in 2009. We always thought the Creek would come first. Well, University District has now really become. And again, you know, we don’t even have an actual downtown in San Marcos. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, you know, creating a downtown, creating that space. It looks like North City is becoming that. You know, we’ve got the Belgian Waffle Ride coming this weekend. It’s the largest cycling event in the western United States. It’s a big deal. Thousands of cyclists are coming from all over. They’re going to be eating in our city. They’re going to be staying here. We don’t have a ton of hotels. There are going to be a couple of other ones in North City and then also in the Creek District eventually. But really creating that downtown was one of the things that we really wanted to do. But we always saw North City—a university district back then when we approved it—and then the creek, because they connect. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Having that as a center core for the city. SV: When do you think North City will be built out? RJ: Oof. Well, that depends on so many different things. If I had a crystal ball, I could answer that. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, they’ve been (sighs), they’ve been through a downturn in the economy. They’ve been through a pandemic. You know, they’ve been through a lot. If you go there today, you Transcribed by Melissa Martin 18 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 know, they’ve got several restaurants. They’ve got the only, first of its kind, building with the university which is the Extended Learning Building because there’s nothing like that in all of California. And then you’ve got like Mesa Rim. You’ve got Draft Republic which was the old Urge Gastropub. You have Newtopia Cyder, Fresh Café, Maya’s Cookies, Wynston’s Ice Cream, Copa Vida, Buona Forcbetta, Umami, a lot of things happening there but, you know, not the residences. You have a little bit of residence there. You’ve got the quad, which is university, you know, kids that live there. And then you have Block C. And then you have the block that’s The Wrap behind. And then also, you know, don’t forget too Pima Medical is right there. And then, you know, you’ve got medical offices now, Scripps Health. And so, a lot of things are happening. It really is on the edge of becoming something much bigger. They have broken ground on and they’re moving forward with the first large-scale residential in there. And it’s going to be about 12 stories high. And so that will really be a game changer, I think, for North City. I think that will be what brings the really the grocery store and the other businesses that they need that can actually handle those residents and offer the services that they need. And, you know, that’s always what the Creek was envisioned. I mean these are things that I learned when we were, you know, going on these field trips to old Pasadena and, you know, all these different places that were mixed use because we didn’t really have much mixed use at that time in the city. We have a little bit over off of Mission but it’s very, very small scale. You know, having the meeting spaces, having the, you know, congregation spaces where you can have like an open-air amphitheater, something like that, that’s all things that really we started with the planning of the Creek District. Again, you know, we have to update that. But really—And it, you know, kind of grew into also North City being part of that, being a large scale downtown core area for us. SV: Yeah. There is a lot of construction going on right now. RJ: Yes. There is. SV: You have the infrastructure going on along the Creek District. You have it seems like three or four different projects right around North City and in North City. RJ: Yeah. So, you know, okay. So, back when I was selling new homes in my early twenties, I was working at Discovery Creek, Discovery Trail, so Discovery Hills. And back then we had, you know, this big map that showed everything that was going to happen in the, you know, the adjoining property. Back then, Craven (Road) wasn’t even there. I mean this—just to date myself of how long I’ve been around in San Marcos. First moved here in 1987. Just looking at, you know, what it was going to be with Kaiser Hospital, Scripps Hospital which isn’t going to happen now. But they are going to have medical offices, much like Carmel Mount Ranch. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, pretty large-scale medical offices. You know, unfortunately, you know medical is always something that we need. And, you know, fortunately though we’ve got some space to put that. You know, we don’t want people to have to go all the way down to Carmel Mount Ranch to go to a doctor. And, you know, currently Kaiser Permanente doesn’t have a hospital. The nearest one is Mira Mesa. So, 180,000 subscribers in North County have to go all the way there for a hospital. So, it’s going to be opening up in August I’m told. They’ve got a ribbon cutting all Transcribed by Melissa Martin 19 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 scheduled. And the Creek project, the infrastructure, it’s about $112 million to start. That is our largest capital improvement project we’ve ever had. We broke ground on that on my one-year anniversary of taking office as Mayor, which is exciting being that, you know, I’d only been talking about it for 10-12 years (laughs) before that. And, you know, before me many other councils had talked about it. You know, this year is our 60th anniversary or birthday, and our sister city Vista, it’s their birthday as well. We were incorporated on January 28, 1963. And so, here we are. We’re in our birthday year, opening up our largest capital improvement project, opening up our hospital. I mean, a lot is happening. There’s also an extension of Discovery (Road) which is about $40 million as well, 30-40 million. That is going from Craven (Road) all the way through to Twin Oaks (Valley Road). That’s a big deal too, getting that done. But, you know, we’re trying to move people around in a meaningful way. That will be one of our first corridors that has intuitive lighting, stop lights that will help people get through. But one of the things that I’ve really focused on that I want to get done is to make sure that we’re getting the traffic flow better. Traffic, it does feel like it’s at its worst. That’s one of the things that my opponent (Randy Walton) was using against me during the campaign. I’m like “Well, we’ve got all this road construction. Sure as heck, we’re going to have terrible traffic right now.” But when it’s done, I believe it will be a significant improvement. You know, getting the flooding to stop so you no longer have that. Being able to have two lanes over Via Veracruz is a big deal. And I remember originally when we were talking about, you know, the Bent Crossing. We talked about a—to save money, well, what if we did an Arizona Crossing (culvert crossing), which I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. SV: I’m not. RJ: It would still flood! SV: Okay. RJ: And I said “No. No. No. Let’s, let’s not do that.” So, we were able to apply for federal funds. And so, a lot of it is grant funded but a lot of money also comes from San Marcos residents. So again, you know, back to wanting to spend their money wisely. Helping move them around the city is really important. We appreciate everyone being so patient—not always patient. But, you know, it has been a tough, tough project because we’ve had unprecedented rain this year, of course. Of course, it had to happen! Just when we weren’t expecting it to happen. But, you know, it would have been a heck of a lot worse had we not had the bridge at Bent opened. I think that could have been actually dangerous for our residents if we had not gotten so far ahead on that. But that will be done probably about a July timeframe. So, the infrastructure will be done. The hospital will come right after that in August. I would say it’s a good year, a good year that we’re getting a lot done, you know, the hospital done and everything, just a lot of good things for our residents. And again, you know, the jobs that we’re providing too, that’s a thousand jobs at Kaiser Permanente. So, those are some really good high-paying jobs. I think that’s a huge win. I’m really proud of that. You know, when I first got the call from their west coast person, he said to me “Are you still interested in the hospital?” And I was like “Where do I sign up?” (laughs) Because, yes! Of course, I’m still interested. Anything we can do to help make that happen, you know. And, you know, also having the university have, you know, the nursing program has been Transcribed by Melissa Martin 20 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 really important. And then, you know, also over at Palomar because, you know, these are also the ability to teach, you know, hands on is a big deal. And, you know, we’re becoming a healthcare hub, now, of North County which is great, you know, with the hospital opening up and then Scripps are moving forward with their big medical offices. It’s, you know, again it’s sad that people are not healthy, however good that they have the ability to get those healthcare options close to home. SV: Yeah. RJ: And the good jobs, of course. SV: Yes. RJ: Yeah. SV: Yeah. Definitely. RJ: In fact, my niece actually just got her nurse’s license. So, very exciting. SV: Congratulations to your niece. RJ: Yes, very exciting. SV: I wanted to circle back a little bit to 2018 and just ask you why did you decide to run for mayor then? RJ: Oosh, well, I decided well before 2018. I actually decided when I was getting elected in 2016 as mayor. I talked to my husband at the time and, you know, ’18 was a tough year, I have to tell you. I was finishing up my divorce. He told me he didn’t want to be married anymore in 2017. So, I was in the middle of a divorce. I had to sell the property, buy a property. I moved 10 days after the election. A lot of people don’t know how hard that was. It was really tough. But, you know, what I knew that, again, you know being apolitical, really pretty apolitical, was an important thing for our future. I think also, you know, having these large-scale things coming up. I wanted to see them through. And, you know, I have to tell you, looking back and seeing all that we have been able to accomplish during my time on the council, I’m so proud. I know that when I’m ready to retire, I can look back and be very proud of what I’ve been able to accomplish with very, you know, diverse group of people. We now have three women, by the way, on the city council which is great. But, you know, again, you know, for 2018 having the first mayor that’s a female, that’s pretty surprising. You know, as progressive as the city is and, you know, how entrepreneurial we’ve really been, I always thought it would be Pia Harris Ebert, which she has been a wonderful mentor to me. I can’t express enough how much I value her leadership, all of her 24 years on the city council. But, you know, when she told me she was retiring, I said, “What?? You can’t go!” and she said, “You know what? I can look back and I can be very proud.” I mean we used to be known for our chicken ranch and then our dairy. And that was it! We were known as a chicken ranch and dairy city, not for higher learning education, being a great place to run a family, a great school district. We were never known for that. We were known for other things. So, I really am proud of how we’ve elevated who we’ve become, the city that we are, and all that we have accomplished. And so, you know, I feel like, you know, the Transcribed by Melissa Martin 21 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 things needed to be seen through and now, you know, I’m on my second term as mayor just, you know, getting reelected last year. I am very happy. I’m very happy. But I’m also, you know, as concerned about, you know, creating opportunity for a new team to come in that is like-minded, focusing on us being a safe city, focusing on us being an entrepreneurial city, also making sure that we are serving our community and providing awesome trails and parks and all of that. And it becomes very challenging when you’re an infill city, and as built out as we are. So, you know, it’s got to be, you know, trying to find good people that want to come after me. And that’s, you know, what both Pia Harris Ebert and Hal Martin did. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And I appreciate that. And I take that responsibility very seriously as well. So, that’s what I’m going to be doing the next three years, three and a half years. And then, you know, making sure that we stay focused. And we’re going to have some tough financial times. You know, it’s—business has not come back the way that we’ve all hoped. And so, you know, we hear of layoffs all the time. You know, General Atomics, I think they laid off 400 people last week. That’s a lot! So, having those challenges you really do need to have a good team in there. But, you know, I’m trying to bring other people forward because that’s a big part of, you know, a succession plan. It’s really important. SV: Yeah. You mentioned businesses haven’t come back. Were you referring to from the (COVID-19) pandemic? RJ: Correct. Yes. SV: Yeah. RJ: Just not in the way—you know, we do have a lot of businesses that have opened. But, you know, we also lost some. I mean, San Marcos Brewery, I still am sad about that, you know, a long-time business in our city, gone. Couldn’t keep their doors open with the open and closing and all of that. There are a lot of stories like that, unfortunately. And so, you know, being able to support the business community, I work a lot at that. I mean if I—I try to do everything I possibly can to support our businesses. And, you know, it’s not like one business. It’s thousands, you know. We’ve got like four tho—let me think here—four thousand businesses here in the city. It’s a lot! SV: Yeah. RJ: It’s a lot. It’s actually upwards of four thousand. And, you know, many of those are store fronts and they’re very small and, you know, they’re family owned. And, you know, I love that. I love that they’re thriving. I love that they’re doing well. I was actually just at a business opening a couple of weeks ago. The father-in-law of this young woman that just opened a brand-new business, he is a long-time business owner in San Marcos, twenty—I think twenty-six years he’s been in business. So, you know, seeing those generations, you know, staying in the city, opening up new businesses. I love that. But, you know, they’re going to need our help. And, you know, they need us to congregate and go to their businesses and, you know, spend our money here locally. And I try to always, you know, emphasize that. You know, during the pandemic, I Transcribed by Melissa Martin 22 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 tirelessly spent so much time on, you know, media just hey talking about all of our great businesses, and what about this and what about that and you know they need us now. But they need us still now. It’s not going to end. And, you know, a lot of them are really struggling. So, as costs go up, people eat out less. They spend less of their money. And so, we’ve got to remember that, when you can, try to spend it locally, whenever possible. SV: Yeah. I imagine a lot of governance is trying to minimize the bad impacts of change, you know, unforeseen or foreseen. And you talked a little bit about the pandemic. I was curious as to, you know, what you could do to lessen the burden on folks during that time and what you all did do. RJ: Gosh. Wow, we did a lot actually. We were the first city that—you know, we have always had very good reserves. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, that’s something that is because we’ve been very fiscally responsible. That money is for rainy days. And when the pandemic came, that was a rainy day. SV: Yeah. RJ: It really was. And so, we set aside $3 million. We were the first city, I believe. The only other city that may have actually beat us was the city of San Diego. But I think they set aside like $5 million. We set aside $3 million. They’ve got a population of 1.3 million. SV: Yeah. RJ: We have a population of under 100. So, I think we really outshined them in that. And I’m really proud that we did that. And that is, you know, that’s being very, very pro-business. I’ve always been pro-business, you know, being that I owned my own business and I know how hard it was. I thought that was something that we should do. And I wholeheartedly believe it’s the right thing to do for our community. But, anyway, so we did that. And we had business loans. So, it was small business loans up to $50,000, depending on your circumstances. We hired an outside company to do all the credit checks. And just, you know, you couldn’t be late prior to Covid. You know, you had to meet a few guidelines. But we were very intentional about trying to get that money out fast, as fast as possible. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: The federal government didn’t have any money out. And we had already saved a lot of businesses. Then the other thing that we did is we were the first city that had our businesses, as soon as the governor—I remember watching the press conference. And Governor Newsom said, when he was talking about some of the businesses could no longer be operating inside, but he didn’t say outside! I was on the phone to our economic development director, and I said, “I’m thinking we can have outside businesses. What can we do to make this as quick as possible.” And we had people moving their businesses. And it was a lot of services, like haircutting and all of that. And then there was another issue about that because—and, you know, restaurants and everything. But there was another issue with that because they didn’t have their business Transcribed by Melissa Martin 23 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 licenses. So, we were actually fighting to open up. And, you know, I mean, again, tirelessly, the letters that I sent to the governor. I mean, I was on full blown action I felt like the whole time, which is very exhausting. SV: Yeah. RJ: But it was like okay, let’s get those businesses moved outside as soon as they can. And we had businesses and we’re like “Don’t worry about your permit. We’re going to check, make sure that you are following it. Just follow these guidelines and we’ll come and check on you.” We had businesses out there before any other. And we didn’t charge anyone a fee. There were a lot of cities that were out there charging them a fee. We’re like no. We need our businesses to stay in place. We need to support them, and we can’t just say that we’re supporting them. We actually have to do it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, I am really proud that we did that. And, you know again, we didn’t close all of our trails. We were not very out in public, you know, screaming it from the rooftops that we’re open because we didn’t want our city residents to feel crowded because all of the other residents from the other cities were coming, though some people knew about them. It was just—it was important for us to do everything we could to support the community. So, fast forward to when we received our federal funds, we were actually able to take all of those loans and make them grants so they didn’t have to be paid back. That was huge. SV: Yeah. RJ: The other thing that we did is we set aside some of our ARPA (American Rescue Plan Act) funds to help our non-profits. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Because they were really hurting at that time too. And I am so proud of all of the things that we did during the pandemic because it was us being innovative, us cutting through the red tape, and us working hard to support our businesses and our community and our non-profits. Because our non-profits support our residents, right? And then the other thing that we also did is—and it’s not our responsibility, though we recognized that our community, our youth were doing very poorly. You know, I’ve been involved with the Boys and Girls Club for many years. And one of the things that they—I was having a conversation with them—one of the things that they were saying is that many of the kids that are at risk were not checking in. And so, you know, you’ve got parents that are very frustrated. The kids are at risk of being abused or neglected. And you’ve got this ultra tough situation happening. So, the mental health of our community, you know, we’ve really tried to focus on that too. And so, one of the things that we did for our youth in the community is we partnered with the school district, and we are equally funding the mental health program that they have rolled out to help the kids bounce back and figure out. You know, a lot of them are so confused. A lot of them have learning deficits. They don’t know how to articulate that, their frustration, their fear and, you know, just getting sick. You know, a lot of them are terrified of getting sick. And, you know, what is life going to be? It’s very different. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 24 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Yeah. RJ: You know, back to the whole pivot—I mean, I know pivot is kind of overused during the pandemic, but it’s a real thing. And so, for us as a city, you know, we made an intentional effort to do what we could to also help the kids. And, you know again, I think I told you this a little bit earlier, you know, I had people—I felt like a counselor many times during the pandemic. I had some of our folks calling me up and sending me messages and saying, you know, “I’m scared.” And so, I would check in on people and let them know, “Hey. You know what? You’re seen. You’re heard. We care about you.” So, you know, mayor’s job is not just all legislation. You know, there’s a lot of parts to it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I think something that a lot of people think is really, it’s just all about rules and regulations. That’s all your job is. Well, I think as a mayor especially, and a councilmember to some degree, but I think as a mayor I’m the figurehead pretty much for the city council. A lot of people know who the mayor is, and they might not know who their councilperson is. For me to be the face of our city, out there letting people know that we care about them and letting them know that it’s not all about rules and regulations. We actually had a young man that was murdered within our community by one of his friends. He was in his early 20s. And, you know, we renamed a trail after him, actually the Gratitude Trail in his memory, right there around Discovery Lake because us doing things to help our community heal in tough times, in tragic times, is really important. And I really do think that that’s a part of government that sometimes people are like “Well, I’m a politician. I don’t have to do that.” Yeah, you don’t have to do it. But I think doing it is important because, again, you know, how—you know, during the pandemic, people needed to know we care about you. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: We care about your businesses. We’re all in with you. We’re going to do everything we can to keep you open and do it safely, of course. But, you know, when it was all the big businesses could stay open and then the small businesses were closed. They couldn’t adapt to that! SV: Yeah. RJ: Many of them went out of business. And, you know, so we had to make it so that it’s easy for every small business to get a fair shake, to be treated like a large business, you know, while also following the health order. So, it was a real tough time. And, again you know, back to grief. You’ve got to deal with grief too within a community and figure out how to move people forward. And, you know, one of the things that I think is always important is, even if you’re taking baby steps moving forward, you’ve got to move forward. Whatever that looks like. And sometimes it’s very different than two weeks ago even. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I mean when the pandemic hit, remember, two weeks! Staying home. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 25 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Yeah. We have a archive that we started mostly with the students, but with community as well, trying to record experiences during that time. RJ: Yeah. SV: And it’s amazing so many students especially writing “I thought I was going to have a twoweek vacation and here I am a year later.” And, you know, it’s just— RJ: Yeah. SV: —it’s just a traumatic experience all the way around. RJ: For sure. And, you know, I mean that is a part, I think, of being a mayor during a pandemic that I—you know, it’s kind of interesting. I was on a Zoom with some girl scouts, and they said to me “If you knew there was going to be a pandemic, would you still run for mayor?” (Sean laughs) And it was funny because I didn’t even hesitate and I said, “Absolutely!” SV: Yeah. RJ: And the reason being is because I was the right person at the right time. I am very positive and I’m very—I mean, you know, the glass is not half-full. The glass is almost to the top, right? There’s always a way to bring everyone together. There’s always a way to, you know, encourage people. And, you know, that’s what I did! My job changed. But I kept working. And, you know, there were a lot of people that really needed to be seen and I let them know they were being seen. SV: Yeah. RJ: I think without hesitation I am glad that I was the mayor at that point in time. SV: Mm-hmm. It’s a really interesting thing that you say about there being—I guess you’re saying so your job is obviously legislation. But it’s also emotional labor and care and I’m hearing as well, communication is important. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: What are some other aspects? I guess my question is what would surprise people the most about your job that people don’t know? RJ: Oh, that’s a tough one. Gosh, I don’t even know if I have an answer to that. You know, it’s interesting. So, Jeff Zevely, he’s from Channel 8. He actually was doing a show on our birthday. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And he said to me, he goes “You know, if San Marcos had a cheer squad, would you be on it?” and I said, “I’m the head cheerleader! What are you talking about?” (both chuckle) And he even said to me after the interview, he goes “You were so fast. You didn’t even like stop for one second.” I said, “Well, that’s my job.” My job is to not just deal with all the tough stuff. It’s also to be out advocating that San Marcos is a great place to live. We have so much for—You know, you can start out, you know, as a baby. And pretty soon you’ll be able to be born here (indicates quotations with her fingers), actually born here, because—I mean, I guess you could be born at Transcribed by Melissa Martin 26 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 your house if you’ve got a midwife or something but, you know, it’s not a traditional thing. You could be born here, and you can earn a master’s degree and then you could work here, and you could have a good paying job. Like that is a remarkable thing if you look at our city from our humble roots: one stop light, chicken ranch, the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch right here where the university is today. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And Hollandia Dairy. That’s all we were known for. And so, yeah, I would say a lot of people might not know what that entails but it’s a lot of time and effort. I can assure you of that. SV: Yeah. RJ: Like it’s almost more than the actual job, although I do a lot of reading. So, that’s probably the most time consuming part of my job, you know, because when I show up, you know, I’ve even had people at SANDAG say—that are a different political party than me—say, “You know, I might not—” And actually this happened like maybe, well it’s happened a few times, but in the last couple of weeks, where this man got up and he said, “You know, Mayor Jones—” and I’m like going “Oh gosh. What’s he going to say?” (both laugh) You never know, right? And then he says, “Mayor Jones, even though I philosophically don’t agree with you on everything, I appreciate that you are always prepared, and you know exactly what you’re talking about because you’re prepared.” And it really does require a lot of time and effort. And, you know, there are times I wake up and I’m like “I’m tired today. I don’t want to work.” But I don’t get that luxury. I have to do what I have to do. And I’ve got to pull it together. And it is a very—you know, the cheerleading part of it and I’m not saying it, you know, like a cheerleader—but, you know, being again the spokesperson, the person that’s in the front, the person that’s out and about the most, probably one of the most identifiable positions in the community—even if people don’t know me, they know that there’s a mayor. You know, to be the mayor of such an incredible city, I’m really humbled by it. I really am. But it does take a lot of effort and it does take a lot of, you know, inner strength. And, you know, I had a pretty tough childhood and, you know, I was a latchkey kid a lot of the time. And, you know, my parents got divorced when I was eleven which is a really tough age. And I had a lot of things happen where I just go “Gosh, I wish it wouldn’t have been my life.” However, it was. But you know what? It also gives me the authority when people are, you know, telling me “You know, I’m going through tough times,” I get it! I was there. I’ve been there. And, you know, I think it helps me do a very good job. And, you know, not everyone thinks I do a good job. But I just got reelected so— SV: Yep! RJ: —again, 64% of the vote. I don’t think I mentioned that before. But the largest margin I’ve ever won by, I think that is a testament to how much I care for the community, how hard I work for the community, and the fact that it’s not all about legislation to me. It really is about being the cheerleader and the person that’s out in the front, talking about what a remarkable community we have. And when I say, “the community,” it’s the people. SV: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 27 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: It’s not me. It’s people that I represent. And I hope that they will always feel like they can reach out to me, and I will always try to help them in whatever I can. SV: Yeah. Thank you. I think I had maybe one or two more questions. But something that I didn’t necessarily prepare to talk about in this interview, I wanted to ask you about was you mentioned you’re the first mayor that was elected that’s a woman in San Marcos history. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: And I was curious if there are considerations that, in your opinion, that women politicians have to take into account that men do not. RJ: Huh! (Sean chuckles) Well… SV: I know that’s a big question. RJ: Well, I’m also not married. So, it actually is quite awkward— SV: Yeah. RJ: —in a lot of ways, you know, because I am out there. It opens it up for—And, you know, there’s a lot of discussion about bias, right? SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: There is still bias against women. It’s sad. But there are. And women politicians! I don’t know if people are surprised all the time. But, I mean, I have been, I mean, I’ve been called names. I’ve been, you know, people try to box me in as I mentioned earlier. It’s hard to believe that it’s 2023 and things still happen the way that they happen because, you know, talking about what I look like, what my body looks like. I’ve had people actually talk about what my body looks like! I’m thinking, wow! You know? Would you say that to your mother? Because I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t. And so, you know, at a job like this that’s very out there, very highly visible—and I am highly visible—you know, I’ve had a few times, very inappropriate comments, inappropriate messages sent to me. And, you know, a couple of times I’m like “Gee, should I be worried?” And I send everything to the Sheriff’s department when I have things that are sent to me that are uncomfortable. But it’s different than being a man. One hundred percent. It’s very different than being a man. I don’t think you have to worry about people talking about what you look like. I don’t think that any man as a mayor would have people sending them messages about what they look like. SV: Yeah. RJ: I don’t think it would ever happen. Now, I don’t really mean if someone says “Oh, I really like how your style.” That’s not sexual. But the truth is a lot of things that are sent are very sexual and I think—I am actually flabbergasted, and you know I’m almost 56 years old. I’m flabbergasted that at 56 years old, as an elected mayor, that I would be treated like this. But it happens! SV: Yeah. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 28 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: It’s really hard to believe. And, honestly, I feel bad for every woman that is just trying to do a job and it gets distracted and convoluted by people bringing in other things that are just not appropriate. It’s just not appropriate. I mean, talking about what I look like or whether they—I mean, the first thing that someone said to me—I was offended but it was early on—was that my teeth were freakishly white. And I went (makes a puzzled and slightly disgusted look on her face) “Why would someone talk about that?” I don’t even think someone would say that about a man. SV: Yeah. RJ: But I feel like, as a woman, on some level there is this—it’s open to talk about what you’re wearing, what you look like, whether they think you are, you know, someone they would want to date or someone—I mean, like really inappropriate things when you’re just trying to darn well do a job, you know what I mean? So, it really is just hard to believe that here we are in 2025—or 2023. Gosh, I can’t even believe I just said that. (both laugh) SV: What would your advice— RJ: You can cut that part out! (both still laughing) SV: We’ll make a note. What would your advice be to women entering politics? RJ: That’s another tough one. You know, I have a podcast too. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And one of the things about my podcast that I love is that you’ve got women from every different, you know, career, all different political parties. It’s not at all political. But they’re all just doing their job and they found something that they love. So, I guess one of the things that I would tell women that are thinking about politics, if you love it, you should definitely do it because you’re going to be very, very effective when you can put your heart into it. There is a lot of preparation that happens. And like for me, you know, I now am the one with the historical knowledge because I’ve been around so long. There is a lot to learn. I mean, you really do need to try to figure out why things happened. I mean, when I first joined the council, I spent every single Friday, like half a day, with the City Manager because he was with the city for like 24 years to find out everything I could about the why and the how and, you know, just how things happen because I thought that would prepare me which it has. But don’t let the things—I mean, you are going to have to have thick skin. It’s true. You are going to have to have thick skin, thicker than a man that goes into politics. But don’t be deterred by people. You really need to follow what you think is right and bringing in your own style. Like I don’t know anyone that does my job the way that I do it because I do it my way. And I don’t let any political party call me up and tell me what to do. I follow what I believe is right. And I follow the kind of politician that I want to be, though I don’t really consider myself politician, technically I am. But I really just want to do a good job. I want to be prepared. I think as a woman you probably have to be a little more prepared. Otherwise, people will start thinking that “Well, you don’t belong there. You’re not smart enough. You’re not this.” It really is about taking information and making a good decision. If you’re a good decision-maker, you can do this job. You’re qualified. You love the community, you’re qualified. If you are willing to put a lot into it, you’re qualified. Not Transcribed by Melissa Martin 29 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 everyone has that qualification. And when I say qualification, it’s not just what others believe but it’s what you believe on the inside. And, you know again, back to my podcast, my podcast is about elevating women because we really still need elevating. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: As, you know, there’s a lot of talk about, you know, different segments of the population whether you’re a minority, whatever, it really still is about women too. We do fit into that. The equity and the inclusion isn’t all about your race. It’s about also your gender because our gender still is a hinderance. And some people don’t see that. And I wish more people paid attention to that because when you’re a woman, you’re a minority. You really do have more against you than a man that’s a minority. And as a woman that is not a minority, you still have things against you that are something that a man would not experience. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And I wish more people really paid attention to that. But, you know, back to the point of if you’re a woman and you really want to, if you have a heart for politics, you should not let any one person or segment of people deter you if you really, really have the heart for it because you can do it. It just is going to be probably a little harder than it is for a man. SV: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you for that answer. And I think it’s wonderful advice. RJ: Thank you. SV: I’ll give you a much nicer question. RJ: Nah, that’s not a hard question at all! I, honestly, and I really do believe it. I mean, it’s terrible! It really is terrible that we’re still there, in 2023. SV: Yeah. RJ: Why did I say 2025? I don’t know. (Sean laughs) SV: It happens. What is the best day of work that you’ve had? RJ: Oh, gosh. There have been a lot of them. I would say I had a really good one recently. And it’s weird because, you know, it’s always something different. But honestly, when I am out in the community at an event and there are kids and they ask me things like—I was at the Boys and Girls Club and I was, of all things, baking cookies with them. So, let me tell you a little story. So, during the pandemic, we decided at West Lake Village that we, the city, that we were—well, we already knew that we were going to have a long-term lease for the Boys and Girls Club so they could expand their services at that location. And then, when we got some of our ARPA (American Rescue Plan Act) funds, we were like okay, we’ll help them with the TIs (tenant improvements) because then that’ll be good for the community because kids can go there and, you know, spend, you know, more time there. So, anyway, I was like “Oh, they’re going to have a kitchen there.” And I was like “That’s so cool.” So, I called up the director—and by the way, I started a girls mentoring program at the Boys and Girls Club which during the pandemic we had to kind of shut down. But I used my tax refund to put some money into it. And I said to them, I Transcribed by Melissa Martin 30 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 said “You know what would be great?” I go, “I really want to come back and spend more time with the kids,” because I’ve been so busy since I got elected as mayor. I don’t always have time to do all the things I really want to do. And I said, “Can I come back and, you know, bake cookies with the kids?” And they were like “Yeah, sure.” And I said, “So, I want to also donate a mixer.” You know, not all kids get to use a really nice KitchenAid mixer. But it’s really cool to use and to learn and, you know again, like to your point, you know. When you’re a chef, you probably are going to be using one of those at some point in time. So, I was like “I really want to buy one.” I’m like “It’s on my heart. I want to do this.” So, I donated the mixer a while ago. And then I’m like, “Gosh. Okay, it’s January. I need to start figuring out when I’m going to get in and bake cookies with the kids because I really want to do it.” And so, we set up a date. It was right after the darn (Highway) 78 flooding happened. SV: Oh, yeah. RJ: And CalTrans (California Department of Transportation). And it was that day. It was that day at 4 o’clock. I was supposed to go over there and bake cookies with them. And then I had to cancel because Caltrans had to have this emergency meeting. And I was like on Zoom, and I was like “Oh, darn it.” I’m like “Oh, duty calls.” I’m like “Can we reschedule another day?” So, we rescheduled another day. I get there and the kids are so excited to meet the mayor first of all. And this is, by the way, intentionally in one of our lower income areas of the city. It’s over on Autumn Drive. And they’re like “Do you think I could be a mayor?” And I just got to hang out and talk to them and I’m like—and teach them how to make, you know, how to crack the eggs. They were doing so good. And, you know, so there was about—I think there was like 12 or 14 of them. I’m like “I want to go back and do that like so all the kids that go to that branch have that moment of time with me.” Because I appreciated it as much as they did. And so, for me, the moments like that or when I get to go and talk to, you know, kids that are at the Boys and Girls Club service groups like Girls Scouts, Boys Scouts. All of the kids groups, honestly, those are the best days that I always have. I mean, really, the kids are excited. I’m really excited to hear what they have to say. But I also am getting a different—and back to, you know, my point of going out and door knocking and meeting people and hearing what they have to say about the city. I’m hearing it from kids and they’re going to be 100% honest. SV: Yeah. RJ: They’re not going to sugarcoat it. SV: (laughs) That’s true. RJ: They’re not going to try to fluff me up. They’re not going to try to get something out of me. They are going to tell me exactly what they think about their community. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And you know what? I appreciate that. So, for me, it’s always about the moments with the kids when I get to go out and do things like that. It actually fills me so much more than any other moments because, again you know, you do have to put a lot into it. You know, when you’re out there on—and when I say “on” (air quotes with her fingers) you know, you’re talking to people. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 31 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 And I don’t want people to feel like they can’t approach me. So, I’m very approachable. And that is one of the things that I really do pride myself on. I don’t want anyone to feel like I ever don’t approach—you know, they can’t approach me. And so, one of our community members sent me this message recently and he said to me, “You know,” —his daughter was in the kids mentor, the girls mentor group—and he said “You know,” he goes “it was so cute. My daughter, we were talking about something.” And she’s also a Girl Scout. And he said “Yeah. She says ‘Well, I know the mayor.’” (both laugh) And he’s like “and she was saying this, you know, to my wife and, you know, to—we had friends over and she goes ‘yeah, I know the mayor.’” And he goes “It was the coolest thing because she really felt like she connected with me.” And I’m like “She did connect with me.” and I love that. I love that our kids in the community can feel like they connected with me because I feel like they will never probably forget that. And I oftentimes when I’m places—I actually did this a couple of weeks ago. I was getting some food to go from San Marcos Market. There was a mom and the daughter and I were just kind of talking. And I went out to my car, and I got her one of our city pens and then I said to her, and I say this very often—so, you know, our city emblem is a wayfinding sign, a compass—and I said to her, I said, “Do you know what this is?” I took it back to her. I said, “Do you know what this is?” And she goes, “No.” And I said, “Well, you’ll probably see it on all of our San Marcos signs. It’s a wayfinding sign, so it’s a compass.” And I said, “What it stands for is to discover life’s possibilities. And it’s going to be different for you than it is for me and for your little friends. Every single one of you has something that is your path to success.” And it’s not all— Everyone’s not going to go to a four-year college. I actually didn’t go to a four-year college. But everyone’s going to have a path to success. And I want everyone to know that they’ve got something inside of them that is what their path is and, you know, it might not be traditional. It might be traditional, but it might not. And I want everyone to know that there is their best self. There is a place that is a best self for every single person. And, again, it’s going to be very different for everyone. And, you know, my kids, my daughter just graduated from USD. My son went to Palomar. Totally different kids. Totally different people. But it doesn’t mean that one is going to be more successful than the other. And I want people to know that and believe that in themselves. I didn’t have parents that, you know, tried to make me feel like I could be successful in whatever I did. I honestly believe that my parents just wanted me to get married and have babies. And that was all they really hoped for me. And here I am. I’m the mayor of one of the best cities in the county. And I am so grateful for every moment that I get to spend in the community and encouraging people and spending my time letting them know that we believe in them. We care about them. That’s what my job is in a nutshell. And I know it is kind of back to a different point of what we were talking about. But the truth is every moment that you’re inspiring kids in the community is a win for me. SV: Yeah. RJ: So, those days are the best. And, you know, really I try to—I always carry my pens in the car. I’m like “Wait! Just wait!” I try to throw them, honestly, in my purse sometimes or in my pocket or whatever. I don’t always remember. But I think those moments when you just say that one thing, that could change the trajectory of someone’s life. And I know I remember my fourthgrade teacher, Mrs. Long. Here I am, you know, 56 years old almost. And I remember fourth Transcribed by Melissa Martin 32 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 grade, what she said to me. She said, “You can do bigger things than you think you can.” And I just know that that’s why I am the right person, right now, to do what I’m doing. SV: Yeah. RJ: And I’m so grateful for it. And I really have a hard time believing that I actually am doing this, but I love it. Most days I absolutely love it, SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And there are times when you’re tired and you go “I don’t want to get up today.” But then, you know, you have those days where you really just go “Okay. This is going to fill me in. Now, I can get through another week or whatever.” SV: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you. I think that’s a great sentiment to end our interview on. I did want to ask you just one more question and that is if there’s anything that I should have asked you that I did not. RJ: No, because honestly, you know how I—I think you realize what my style is. (both laugh) if you don’t bring it up and I want to say it, I’ll just bring it in there. So, no, I don’t think so. SV: Okay. RJ: Yeah, I don’t think so. It’s funny. At KUSI, they’re like “Oh, well, we’ll just ask you one question. You just know what to do.” (both laugh) “You know what, you can just get everything you want to say in.” I’m like “Oh, okay. Thanks!” And, you know, by the way, when I was first elected as mayor, I was like “I can’t go on TV! I’m scared to death! I’m going to be sweating. I’m going to be stressed. I’m going to say wrong things.” Like now, I’m like, I laugh about it. You know, what I said. I’m like “Aw, geez. Two thousand twenty-five. What am I saying?” (raises her hands and chuckles) You know, but I used to be really hard on myself. But you know what? I don’t think people really want perfection. They want truth and honesty and authentic. SV: Yeah. RJ: And, you know, I try to be those things. I try to be, you know—I don’t even honestly think about it. I just try not to be guarded when I am—And, you know, if I show up to something, I don’t want to be the person that is like “Cheese!” (motions as if smiling widely for a camera) take a picture and then leave. Like, I’m there to do whatever you need me to do. Like if I need to take out trash, get icky stuff on my hands, I’m going to do it. Like, I want to be fully engaged when I show up to things. And I don’t think every politician is like that. I honestly wish there were more people, not exactly my style, but really having the reason as the reason, as the real reason, you know what I mean? Not like “Oh, I’m looking for my next thing, my next higher office.” (makes air quotes with hands) You know, I am planning on running for county supervisor next. But if I’m not elected, I’m totally fine. I’ve done good. I really do believe that. I really do believe I’ve done good. SV: Yeah. When are you running for county supervisor? RJ: In 2026, when this term is over. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 33 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Okay. RJ: So, not to worry. I’m not going to skip like in the middle of my term. So, Jim Desmond will be termed out and I’m running for that seat. And, you know, it’s a bigger job but, you know, the good thing is I will get paid for the hours that I work. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And then I have staff. So, I think I can work on the same level, you know, put in the same amount but have more fruit because I have people working for me and I’m actually getting paid for it. So— SV: Yeah. RJ: You know, because we make less than $12,000 a year. I don’t know if you know that. SV: I didn’t know. RJ: Yeah. Yeah. I’m the best value in the county. (both laugh) Everyone’s like—Well, actually a bunch of my friends are like “You’re the hardest working mayor in the whole county!” And I go “Well, you know, yeah.” But, again, I’m not one of those people that shows up and like takes a picture and leaves. That’s just not my thing. SV: Yeah. RJ: I don’t do that. Anyway. Anything else? SV: No. Thank you so much for your time. RJ: Do you feel like you know me now? SV: I do! RJ: Okay, good. SV: I appreciate you spending some time— RJ: Yeah. SV: —talking with us today. And I think this is going to be really valuable to our students and researchers in the future. So, thank you. RJ: Well, again, you know our city has come such a long way. And we really do have a lot to be proud of. And I really do believe that people that live here and I hear it time and time again, showing up at their house and they’re like “I love it here.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: “I love this city. I really wouldn’t live anywhere else.” And, you know, even when they’re upset about things, they still don’t want to leave. They still are very happy. They’re like “But, it’s better than—” You know, blah, blah, blah. Or where else. So, I think, you know, we’ve built a great place. My first house was over behind Fire Station No. 2. (points in front and to the left Transcribed by Melissa Martin 34 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 with her left hand) And now I live over off of La Moree. (points behind her right shoulder with her right hand) So, I’ve had three houses over here. So, I’ve owned four houses in the city. SV: Nice. RJ: I’m definitely not leaving. SV: Yeah. RJ: I love it here. SV: Well, thank you, again. I appreciate everything. RJ: Of course, yeah. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 35 2023-12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jones, Rebecca. Interview transcript, April 12. 2023. Description An account of the resource Mayor Rebecca Jones has been involved in local governance of San Marcos, California since 2005, when she served on the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force until 2007. Jones served on City Council from 2007 to 2018, winning re-election three times. Jones also served as Vice Mayor from 2012-2018, and was elected as Mayor in 2018 and re-elected in 2022. In addition to her role as Mayor, Jones represents San Marcos on the San Diego Association of Governments (SANDAG) Board of Directors and on the SANDAG executive committee and regional planning committee. Jones also sits on the Countywide Redevelopment Successor Agency Oversight Board. In her oral history, Jones discusses the structure of San Marcos's local government and how it interacts with the San Diego County government. Jones recalls her foray into politics and recounts previous elections as well as her service on the San Marcos Creek Task Force. Jones also offers her perspective on public transit, car transit, bike transit, and microtransit, development in San Marcos, and how the she and city navigated the COVID-19 pandemic. Jones delves into her experience as a woman in politics, and her place as San Marcos's first woman mayor, and offers advice to women interested in a political career. Jones also discusses her podcast, cooking, self-care, and the Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rebecca Jones Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Economic aspects COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Government policy Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos San Diego Association of Governments Women in politics Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Rebecca Jones License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12_transcript Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a52581a7fd498b492ea058b5ac827903.pdf cb5cb7f0bbb67fab48730406ff5f2971 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eisenbach, Regina. Interview transcript, July 1, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Regina Eisenbach Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-07-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos -- History California State University San Marcos -- Administration Education, Higher Women in leadership Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Juan (P.R.) Miami (Fla.) San Marcos (Calif.) CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Regina Eisenbach OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. higher education;women in leadership;Western Association of Schools and Colleges;mentorship;administration OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Eisenbach, Regina. Interview July 1, 2025. SC027-085 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm higher education ; women in leadership ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; mentorship ; administration Regina Eisenbach Jennifer Fabbi moving image EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1b6dd8309f4ca65c7028d0d2f151d601.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 39 Childhood and adolescence Eisenbach reflects on her childhoood. She was born in Puerto Rico but is of Cuban descent. She was very close with her parents. She attended University of Miami for her undergraduate degree. San Juan, Puerto Rico ; Cuban ; only child ; Miami ; Massachusetts ; University of Miami ; Gainesville 0 175 College experience Eisenbach's undergraduate degree was in psychology after which she started a PhD program in Management Studies in the COllege of Business at University of Miami. psychology ; academic ; business ; organizational behavior ; calculus ; Program in Management Studies 0 399 Eisenbach meets her spouse Eisenbach met her husband at the same time as she started her PhD program when she was twenty years old. They have now been together since 1987. Hialeah, Florida ; Madonna ; young ; girlfriend 0 509 Moving to San Marcos Eisenbach found out about a faculty position at CSU San Marcos from her PhD advisor. She interviewed a few places but ended up accepting the job at CSU San Marcos. Her plan was to be in San Marcos for two years and to move back to Miami. Chet Schriesheim ; young woman ; Dean Bernie Hinton ; faculty position ; marriage ; Spanish speaking ; Cal Poly Pomona ; Florida Atlantic University ; Len Jessop 0 878 CSU San Marcos when Eisenbach arrived When Eisenbach arrived at CSUSM, the "campus" was in an office park a few miles away from where the permanent campus would eventually be built. She was an instrumental contributor to the creation of the Business curriculum. She loved teaching, but research more of a challenge for her. College of Business Administration ; San Diego State ; curriculum ; research agenda ; teaching ; service ; Academy of Management ; administration 0 1232 Administrative path Eisenbach started on her path to administration early in her tenure at CSUSM. She reflects on the positions she has held and some of the ups and downs along the way. dean ; interim dean ; Kathleen Watson ; associate dean ; Mohammed Mustafa ; friendships ; challenges ; Dennis Guzman ; work-life balance ; disappointment ; provost ; Graham Oberem ; Patricia Prado-Olmos 0 1919 Role in Academic Programs Eisenbach was named as the Associate Vice President of Academic Programs (now Dean of Academic Programs) in 2013. In this role, she has overseen the academic catalog, the curriculum, assessment, and accreditation. In 2019, academic advising was added to her to her portfolio. catalog ; curriculum ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; Accreditation Liaison Officer ; accreditation ; dean ; asessment ; advising ; President Karen Haynes ; student affairs ; academic affairs 0 2112 Evolution of CSUSM After thirty-four years at CSUSM, Eisenbach reflects on its evolution. The building of the physical campus was a key milestone, and she was very closely involved with the building of the Markstein Hall. She also discussed the growth of the student body. Regina expresses her gratitude for getting to be a part of the evolution from the beginning and being able to build CSUSM for future generations. campus ; buildings ; Markstein Hall ; enrollment growth ; City of San Marcos ; infrastructure 0 2304 Becoming an academic Eisenbach discusses her unexpected path to a career as an academic. teacher ; academic struggle ; academic conference ; research 0 2449 High points at CSUSM and impactful work Eisenbach reflects on the high points and low points of her time at CSUSM. Highs include the opening of Markstein Hall, the great people she has worked with, and her son graduating from CSUSM. She also discusses her work and what she thinks has been most impactful. Markstein Hall ; Melissa Simnett ; reaccreditation ; son ; graduation ; Academic Advising ; Academic Programs ; Curriculog ; Acalog ; catalog ; curriculum ; pandemic 0 2742 People who have influenced Eisenbach's career Eisenbach gives credit to colleagues and mentors who have influenced her career over the years. Dennis Guzman ; Beverly Anderson ; mentorship ; women in leadership ; Pat Worden ; President Karen Haynes ; Kamel Haddad ; Graham Oberem ; Dawn Formo ; David Barsky 0 3034 Plans in retirement Eisenbach discusses her professional plans for retirement as she will be participating in the Faculty Early Retirement Program. Faculty Early Retirement Program ; Voluntary Separation Incentive Program ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; WASC accreditation teams ; Ecuador 0 Oral history Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:23.000 Hello, this is Jennifer Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Regina Eisenbach for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is July 1st, 2025 at 10:30 a.m. This interview is taking place at Regina's office on the CSU San Marcos campus. Regina, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Thank you. I'm honored that you asked. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Okay. So to start off, we'll start young. Can you tell me about your childhood and adolescence, for example, where you were born and a bit about your family? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:02:43.000 Sure. so I was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico by accident. I'm not Puerto Rican, but I'm actually Cuban. I'll get to that in a second. My dad was there on business. My mom went to go see him, and she was bedridden for six months to have me. And so she was in Puerto Rico and got stuck there basically. And so I was born there. I think that's telling because it shows the kind of parents that I had. So I was an only child and they'd lost--my mom miscarried four times before me, and after me, I had a brother who died after a day. And so my parents lost a lot of children. I was the only surviving kid, so they were, (tears up)--didn't think it would start this early. So they were very devoted to me. And you'd say overprotective, but as a young child, it was great. So we lived in, we moved to Miami early on and then moved to Massachusetts for a little bit, came back to Miami. And so I grew up in Miami from second grade all the way through college. And went to the University of Miami because when I graduated from high school, wasn't really ready to leave home. So went there and went to graduate school there as well, because I thought I might wanna' go away to grad school, and a little independence from my parents at that point when I was, you know, twenty or so. And when I said, Yeah, I think I might go to Gainesville or something, they'd say, oh, they said, Okay, we'll come with you. Okay. That defeats the purpose. So I think I will just stay here. And so I did. And so I went straight from my parents' house to my husband's house. I have never lived alone. So that also says a little bit about me. 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:55.000 Okay. So you started to talk a little bit about your education. Can you tell me about your formal education, including your areas of academic focus? 00:02:55.000 --> 00:06:35.000 Yeah, so I my undergraduate degree was in psychology. And I did my undergrad in three years. And so when I was, I graduated from college, I was, I wasn't even--I was twenty and wasn't ready to leave school. So I know some folks say that, you know, they always knew they wanted to be an academic or they always knew they wanted to be such and such. I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew is I wasn't ready to leave school. So I was looking for graduate programs. And I got word that this professor over in the College of Business was starting a PhD program in business. It was gonna be brand new in organizational behavior. And I thought, Okay, that's, you know, psychology adjacent, let's check this out. And one of those vivid memories I still remember and he did, too--what I was wearing the day that I went to see him 'cause I was wearing red high top Reebok sneakers. This was in 1980--Lord, '87. So yeah, I swear it was in style then. And I wandered into his office and he said, yeah, we're gonna start this new PhD program, but it'll be great. And so I said, sure, why not? So I got in, it was a full assistantship, so I didn't have to pay for it. I actually didn't have to pay for any of my education. It's something that I look back on. And I think, how did that work? Because my parents didn't make a lot of money. I got lot of scholarships. And so my undergrad was completely covered. And then the PhD program was a full ride. Truly blessed. Didn't really know at the time what a blessing it was. And so I thought, all right, I'll try this. And the PhD program, since it was brand new, I was the first student admitted. And there weren't classes for just us in business, so we took classes--there was, there were only two or three, there were a few IO (industrial organizational) psych students in the program at the time, but there was five of us total, if that. So we would take classes with the other PhD students and other disciplines. But when I started my PhD advisor said, Well, you haven't taken calculus. And I said, Yes, I know. That was intentional. He said, well, business folks have to take calculus. And so I did. As a graduate student, one of my classes was to take calculus with the freshmen. And I got an A minus, I still remember. So that first summer of the PhD program, since I didn't have an undergraduate degree in business, I had to take classes with the MBA students. And it was the name has since changed, but I am not even making this up. The program was called the PMS (laughter) Program in Management Studies. And it was basically a business bootcamp, so really condensed all of the basics of business. And I learned that I hated accounting and I hated economics, and I sucked at it. And I got my first Cs ever in school in those two classes. But overall, you know, I liked school and I liked the--I thought, Okay, I'll, you know, keep doing this. And so that's how I got into the PhD program. It wasn't anything premeditated, which is actually the story of my life. It wasn't a plan. It was just, Eh, this'll work out. 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.000 And Regina, when did you meet your husband and where? 00:06:39.000 --> 00:08:19.000 I met him the day after I started the PhD program. So I was twenty years old. We both grew up in the same town in Hialeah, Florida. And met through a mutual friend. He, my friend and my husband worked at Marshall's together. And it was, the Madonna was going on tour, the Who's That Girl concert. And back in the day, he had to sleep in the parking lot. You may even be too young to remember this. You had to sleep in the parking lot to get concert tickets. And so my husband and my friend were sleeping for the Madonna tickets, and I was supposed to meet them in the morning to give them my money for my ticket and stand in line when they bought them. My husband had no idea. He just thought I was coming 'cause I was, you know, Rick--our friend's name was Rick--Rick's friend. And so I showed up. So we met in the parking lot of Westland Mall, very romantic. And I saw him, and the first thing I thought of was, He looks very young. And so I pulled Rick aside. I said, Rick, how old is this guy? He goes, no, I swear he is your age. Okay, great. Turns out he is, he's two days younger than I am. And it was, I mean, for me it was like, wow. Almost love at first sight. And so that was June 6th that we met. And we went out, we started talking on the phone every day. And we went out in a big group on June 12th, and he asked me to be his girlfriend. And we've been together ever since. 1987. 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:29.000 Okay. So how did you find out about the CSU San Marcos faculty position? And what was the process of you moving here? 00:08:29.000 --> 00:14:25.000 So as I mentioned in my retirement speech, like one of those moments that just sticks in your mind. I was standing in my PhD advisor's office and his name was Chet Schriesheim. And my mom, who I alluded to, I'm Cuban. So my mom was raised in Cuba, born in Spain. My dad was Hungarian. And my mom had a very thick accent when she spoke English. And we used to joke that she had her own language 'cause the way she pronounced things so she could not say Schriesheim to save her life. So she called him Shoeshine. And so we all did. So I was standing in Shoeshine's office, and Shoeshine knew my mom called him Shoeshine. We got very close. He became--not that I needed a father 'cause my father was very, very strong presence in my life. But he became a father figure. So much so that his son was the ring bearer at my wedding. And so I was standing in his office and 'cause I was really young at the time, I remember I was, you know, twenty when I started grad school, I was twenty. And so he really, you know, made it a point of raising me in the academy as well as, you know, trying to prepare me for being a young, very young woman in this field. So anyway, I'm standing in his office and he, back then, it was all mail obviously. And so he got a letter from then acting Dean Bernie Hinton, who was founding faculty here who was recruiting. And so he sent letters to all the PhD chairs at institutions that he was familiar with. And so Shoeshine read the letter to me and it said do you know of anybody who wants to take on the opportunity of building the first new public university in twenty-five years in this country? And I said, Alright, I'll give it a shot. And so that's how I ended up interviewing here. And when I came to interview, I--so at the time, I was with Angel and we had already made plans to get married. And so we were looking at the job market together, and we said, We need to go someplace where people speak Spanish. And so ignorantly, now we know, we said, Oh, San Diego. Great. They speak Spanish there, and Mexicans, Cubans, same deal. Yeah, it's not at all. But we figured, all right, California would be, you know, pretty cool. So I interviewed at Cal Poly Pomona, and I interviewed here, and I interviewed at Florida Atlantic University in Boca. We didn't wanna' leave Miami, and we thought we never would leave Miami. And in fact, the, I was heartbroken to know that U of M wouldn't hire me 'cause they didn't, they really didn't like to hire their own grad students. 'Cause the plan was supposed to be, I was supposed to stay in Miami, and we were gonna buy the house next door to my parents. And that's it. We were gonna stay there. So I came out here to interview and remember somebody that, you know, picked me up, Len Jessop. He was on the faculty then went on to become UNLV's President. And he picked me up. There was no campus, it was Cal State Jerome's. He took me to the office park. None of that bothered me 'cause I was young. And he drove me down Barham, and they pointed at the dirt and they said, There's gonna be a campus there. Oh, great. And they showed me the drawing and all the things. And I remembered the people seemed to be a little younger as compared to Cal Poly Pomona, especially. A little younger. Very excited and super energized. And I thought, Wow, this is great. Too bad I'm never gonna' leave Miami. So the, I did get offered eventually the job at Cal Poly Pomona, but I thought, no, it's just the, the vibe was very traditional and it felt old to me. I was twenty-four. Everything feels old when you're twenty-four. And Florida Atlantic only had a visiting position, so Angel and I thought Well, we'll go to California for a couple years, and we'll come back 'cause by then something will have opened up. And so we did. And moving out here was--we got married August 2nd, moved out here August 12th, 1991. And it was one of the most traumatic things we have-I have--ever done, we have ever done. We got here, got to our apartment on Mission, still there. And had to buy everything 'cause we came with no furniture, nothing. So we went to Jerome's and we bought an apartment full of furniture, and went to the grocery store where the Stater Brothers is now. And got on a payphone, called home and said we wanted to come back. And we were going to 'cause we had bought round trip tickets because it was cheaper. And so we thought, All right, the round trip goes back in a week. We can, we can go. And we kind of thought we were 'cause it was just, it was heartbroken, it was the fir-- heartbreaking. It was the first time we had ever been away from our families. And Angel moved out here sight unseen. He had never even been to California. So thankfully, I think the next day I went onto into the office, I can't even say campus 'cause it was an office park. And saw the people again, got excited about the opportunity. And that's why we decided, All right, we'll give it, we'll give it the two years. 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:38.000 And you've talked a little bit about this, but what was the entity, the organization, CSU San Marcos, like when you arrived? 00:14:38.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Well, it was, there were no offices. So I was, you know, in a cubicle for the first, what, three years. Everybody knew, literally, everybody knew everybody 'cause it was tiny. When I got hired in COBA (College of Business Administration), there were eight faculty, and then four were hired when I got there at the same time as me. Three Asian guys and me. And it was--in some ways it's good that I was so young because I didn't know that I should be terrified because of everything that we had to do. They--the curriculum in COBA was basically just San Diego State's repackaged. And, but the Dean, Bernie at the time said, you know this is just a placeholder for us. We're gonna, and then the first thing we're gonna do is we're gonna create our own. Well, I didn't even know what curriculum was, so I had to go to the library to get a book to, because back then, PhD programs did not train perspective faculty in teaching pedagogy, curriculum design, or any of that stuff. It was straight up research. And by the way, my PhD advisor, Shoeshine, thought I was nuts to come here because he said, you are gonna' be overwhelmed with service. You're not gonna' be able to get your research agenda off the ground. And I said, Yeah, you know, two years, it'll be fine. So yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot that just fell into place, me coming here because, you know--spirit of full disclosure--as far as the profession. I loved to teach. I was very good at it, not just to toot my own horn, but I was very good at it. And students loved me. I loved the students. So I was a great teacher. The research I could do. It wasn't my passion, though. And so coming here was a blessing in that way because I was able to lean into my strength, which was teaching and this whole new thing of service that as a faculty member or as a PhD student, I had no clue what that was about. Shoeshine used to call it administrivia, if he ever had to serve on a committee. And when I would go to conferences, the Academy of Management, and I would go to the PhD or the new faculty seminars, and I would talk to people and they would look at me like, You're doing what? You're on what committee? What? And they thought I was insane. But looking back, it was the best training for an administrator that you could ever have as a faculty member. So I, you know, unbeknownst to me, I was kind of on this trajectory towards becoming an administrator without even knowing it. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:43.000 Okay. So your focus for the first years of your career was in the classroom. And what did you teach? And then what was the focus of your research and service, which you've spoken to a little bit, but anything else you'd like to add? 00:17:43.000 --> 00:20:20.000 Yeah, so I taught management and organizational behavior. And I taught IO (industrial organizational) psych in the early days. And I taught H--I think I taught HR once, but mostly it was the basic organizational behavior class. And the classrooms were storefronts back then. So there was a glass in the back and there's little shutters, but inside it looked like a classroom. And almost all of my students were older than me. I think all of my students were older than me. So back then I used to always wear suits and professional stuff and wear glasses to look older. So yeah, on the research side I continued to work with some of my PhD student colleagues to get, because, you know, you have to get enough stuff out the door to get tenure. So, so I did that. The great secret of my life was that I came here at the time ABD ("All But Dissertation"). So I was, I wasn't done with my dissertation, which in retrospect was insane. Coming into a brand new job, brand new everything. And I was scared to death. I didn't tell anybody when I got here and then finally one day I just broke down in the dean's office in Bernie's office and said, I just, I wasn't able to finish the year, but I'm almost done. I just have to write this stuff up. And he said, Don't worry about it, you'll finish it. So by March of the spring semester, I was done and I walked. So part of my first semester was, you know, finish up the dissertation, get started on your res- on your teaching. And oh, by the way, you'll be on all these committees. I don't know. I don't know how I did it. So those were the yeah, the early years. And then the yeah, the service stuff was just all, everything you can imagine. So there's a faculty member in computer science at the time, Shell Baning. And he said, Oh, you should be on Academic Senate. I, what, what is that? And so I was, that was one of the first things I did. And I remember then, and it's still true now, how can they spend forty-five minutes talking about one sentence in a document? I don't understand. So that's why when folks, Academic Senate, now when I see things, it's like, I, what, so what's new? I've seen this for years. 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Okay. So you started your administrative path relatively early on in your career. Can you tell me what that path looked like for you and the positions that you've held? 00:20:32.000 --> 00:31:53.000 So in 1999 we had a dean search. And for reasons completely unbeknownst to me 'cause I was an associate professor at the time, the then-vice president for Academic Affairs, he was not pro--the title didn't include Provost yet. That's a not recent anymore, but in '99 it was just the VPAA (Vice President for Academic Affairs). He asked me to serve as the Dean Search Committee Chair. And so, Alright, sure. And unfortunately the search was not successful. So the VPAA had to pick an interim dean and chose one of my colleagues, Kathleen Watson. And she and I were very close and close friends as well as colleagues. We did consulting together. We were friends outside of work. And so he thought--the VPAA thought I could be her associate dean. And so I was made interim Associate Dean in 1999. And I thought, you know, sure, for a year, I'll try it. I don't have any idea what it entails. Because up until then, the associate deans in the colleges had been these older full professors at the time. I thought they were old. I now look back and think they were like way younger than I am now. I am sure. And so I didn't know. I didn't know what I didn't know. And so I said, yes, I would be associate dean 'cause I figured I'm working with Kathleen, it'll be okay. And then there was another dean search and that one also failed, and the VPAA--no wait, no, that dean search was successful, sorry. And he, the dean who came in, came from Cal State Long Beach, Mohammed Mustafa. Called him Mo, rest his soul. He kept me on as associate dean, and he made me permanent. And the first, the first semester was fine ; after that thing started going sideways because his management style and what the faculty wanted at the time were completely different. And the faculty--he began to get really suspicious of them. They began to really hate him. And I was stuck right in the middle. And so that was, I'm sure one of the questions is gonna' be, what's the most chal-- what are the most challenging times that you faced here? That was really one of them, if not the most, because I basically lost all my friends because Kathleen and the other senior faculty thought that I had betrayed them because I stayed on as Associate Dean. They thought I should have resigned. But, you know, at the time, I liked the job and I didn't want to, I didn't wanna' quit. And they never got over the fact that I stayed on as Mo's Associate Dean. And so lost my friends. They wouldn't talk to me. People would yell at me in meetings 'cause they couldn't yell at him. So it was really unpleasant. And so after eighteen months, Mo resigned and that was the only time that I started looking for jobs elsewhere. And I actually got an interview as--for a dean of faculty position in, outside of Boston, Massachusetts at a Catholic school called Easton. And it was when Vince was three, and I remember that because he couldn't pronounce Massachusetts. And so I had to, when I left, Angel would tell him that I was going on an airplane to Massachusetts and he would say, Mama, go airpane Ma-chusetts. (laughter). So that was a great experience because I thought, Okay, I'm a relatively new associate dean. It was only a couple years out, and they still wanted to interview me. And the people were really nice, and I didn't get the job, but at least I felt validated, like, Okay, I could do this. And then thankfully there was a dean search, and the dean who came in was Dennis Guzman. And he was--he ended up being the stability that COBA needed. So prior to that, I said Mo stayed for eighteen months. The permanent dean before Mo stayed eighteen months. There had been a bunch of interims. So the, there was a revolving door in the dean's office basically every eighteen months for the first about ten years of Cal State San Marcos's existence. But when Dennis came in, he was a great people person. He really got to know the faculty. They began to trust him. He ended up serving as dean for ten years. He made it his mission the first couple of years to get folks to respect me again and to treat me well. And it worked. I never got my friends back, like Kathleen and I never fully recovered our friendship. We got to at least talk 'cause she wouldn't even talk to me. We got to at least be on speaking terms and be civil and thanks to Dennis. And he also was great because he--Vince was young. And he let me do all of the things that moms can do. I never had to miss any of his things. I could go on field trips, if I needed any time, Dennis would give it to me. And so he let me be a mom to a young child, which was the most important thing to me. So when I first became Associate Dean, Vince was three. And I figured, I'm gonna be--and I was really young at the time--so I was gonna be the youngest everything. I was gonna' be the youngest provost. I was gonna' be the youngest president. I was going all the way before I was forty. And then Vince started kindergarten, and I realized, holy moly, he needs me. And this time is not gonna' come back. And if I miss it, I am gonna' regret it. And we only have the one kid we couldn't have anymore. So like, this is my one shot. And so thankfully Dennis let me do that. And so that's why I stayed on as Associate Dean for thirteen years. And then he decided--so provost came, new provost came in. She was quite something, and they didn't get along. And so he decided to step down. And I thought, Oh God. Because I used to tell him, Dennis, don't leave 'cause I don't want your job. But by the time he stepped down, I had been Associate Dean for like eleven years. So they asked me to be the interim dean. And I thought, all right, I'll give it a shot. And so I was, and found that, you know, I'm a chameleon. I can adapt pretty darn well. 'Cause It's a completely different skillset, associate dean to dean, as you well know. Being the the associate dean, you're the support, you're the details, you're the sounding board, you're all the things. As the dean, you are it. If you don't think of it, it doesn't get done. You need to--and then in COBA, you had to fundraise. There was an advisory board, all of the things. So business, community stuff. So all kinds of stuff I was learning. But I loved, I liked it. I liked it a lot. And so when the fall semester went well, when the spring semester rolled around and the dean search started, I put my hat in the ring. I thought, You know, why the heck not? And the Provost at the time, she said that, you know, I was doing a great job. She loved working with me, I liked working with her. Everything was going great. Dean search happened. And I didn't get the job. And I still remember to this day, it was April 1st, 2012. She called me and told me I didn't get the job. And I cried harder than I had ever cried. 'Cause I gave my heart and soul to this, to the job. And I thought I should have gotten it. People were telling me I should have gotten it. The advisory board was. Everybody was thankfully rallying around me, but, you know, to no avail. 'Cause the person that they picked at the time, and I'm not, I'm not saying anything that anybody doesn't know, she left after two years and gave the provost at the time--so the provost shift, Graham came in, Graham Oberem--gave him two weeks notice. So, she basically came here to get her retirement. But the provost who hired her saw dollar signs because she had come from San Diego State and raised, supposedly raised, thirteen million dollars. And so they thought, oh, she'd come here and do the same. So that didn't work out. And she, you know, I did my best. I swear it wasn't sour grapes or anything like that. I did my best to transition her in and to work with her. But her work style and mine were very different. Like, I'd come in and before 7:00 a.m. there were sixteen emails for me to do stuff. She was having me do spreadsheets left, right, and sideways for absolutely no reason. And so after a year, I thought I can't do this anymore. So I was gonna' go back to faculty, and Graham called me 'cause David Barsky was stepping down as the--it was AVP (Associate Vice President) of faculty--of Academic Programs at the time. And Graham asked me, do you want to do it? And I said, no, I don't, because let's see, David works until midnight, and I don't know what the job entails and, you know, but let me sleep on it. So I did. And Angel and I talked and he said, You know, what have you got to lose? Do it for a year. I said, okay. Twelve--it would've been twelve years today that I stayed in this job. And, you know, turns out that Patricia Prado-Olmos told me this, and it's true. That the COBA dean thing was, you know, the best thing that never happened to me because this gig was really, you know, very well suited to what I like to do, what I like to think I'm good at, and allowed me to work with faculty across the University, which I didn't get to do in COBA. Gave me a really a bigger picture view. Had I decided to go on to be a provost someplace else, it really would've positioned me well for that. And so, you know, looking back, there really has--well, I haven't had a plan for my career. There has been a plan by someone, you know. So I'm a person of faith, so I believe God took care of me somehow. Put me where I was supposed to be when I was supposed to be at each stage of my career. 00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:59.000 So tell me what an AVP of Academic Programs does. 00:31:59.000 --> 00:34:55.000 So the evolution of--so started off with basically the catalog maintenance. And back then it was a paper catalog and then shifted to PDF. So the catalog and then the curriculum. So curriculum goes through a bazillion approval steps--new courses, new programs, all the way up to the Chancellor's Office. And so all of those steps really shepherding, shepherding faculty along in their creativity around new courses and new programs to get them through all of the myriad of steps. So the position originally was an AVP and it didn't do--David didn't do accreditation and what else didn't he do? And he did first year programs. So when I took it over, first year programs really wasn't in Academic Programs anymore. Neither was scheduling, which he had for a while. And then after about a year, we had--we were ramping up for our WASC (Western Association of Schools and Colleges) reaffirmation in 2014 at the time. And Sharon Hamill was our campus Accreditation Liaison Officer. And she was a faculty member. We had our visit from the Vice President from WASC, and he recommended that it be an administrator. And so Sharon and I talked, I had, you know, gotten to know the VP from WASC. I was really impressed. And I said, you know, sure, I'll do it. And so that's how the WASC piece came over. Then Academic Affairs reorganized, and we brought in a Vice Provost for the first time. And when that happened, that's when the AVP position became a dean position because they wanted all of the senior leaders in academic affairs to be at the dean level. And so I became Dean of Academic Programs and still doing the accreditation, assessment, curriculum, catalog. So those basic things. Then in 2018, President Haynes called me into our office, and there had been a task force put together to look at advising and infrastructure and organization around academic advising on the campus. And they said that it should be consolidated in one division 'cause It was bifurcated in Student Affairs and Academic Affairs at the time. And they wanted all in Academic Affairs. And Karen--President Haynes--asked me if I would do it. And I said, why me? Academic programs, advising, why? She said, you know, we really think that you can make it work. And so that's how advising, that's how it became Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2019, I think we launched. 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.000 Yeah, it's been a long road. 00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.000 Yeah, it has been. 00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:12.000 Okay. So you've been a faculty member and administrator on campus for 34 years. What has been the evolution at CSUSM? How has it changed? 00:35:12.000 --> 00:37:16.000 Well buildings are nice. (laughter) It still boggles my mind to this day. I will just like stand in Palm Court and look up the stairs 'cause for the longest time, those stairs were there and there was no building. And they were the stairs to nowhere. That's what we would call them 'cause Markstein Hall didn't open, hadn't opened yet. So every single building on campus, I have seen open. I've been in many of them before they were even built, like this building, I got to--I have a rivet from this building. So just basically growing up with the campus was just insane. And it's not, you know, it really exceeded expectations 'cause I certainly hoped that once we decided to stay here 'cause I mentioned we were gonna' be here for two years. After two years and, you know, this weather, we called home and we said, Yeah, we're not going back. And so my parents packed up and moved, and eventually, Angel's family packed up and moved. So once we decided to stay, and I got to, you know, we were at 400 students when I started. We're at what, close to 17,000 now. So just seeing that, and all of the talk in the early years was always about the City of San Marcos, the region needs us 'cause there's gonna be this explosion in the college age population. North County's population is exploding. We need to be here. And they, the City, you know, put its money where its mouth was. The Twin Oaks (Valley Road) has been as it is today, since before there was a campus. So they really were thinking ahead. And so, all of those promises and dreams so many of them came true. And I got to see that. I got to--(weeps) I knew this would happen. 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:20.000 It's okay. We very much want you to be as vulnerable as you can. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:38:13.000 And anybody who knows me knows that I cry. So it's okay. But I got to be a part of that. I got to, to build, build this place. And I think, wow, you know, I built it, and then my son came here. So I built it for him, for all of the other students that have graduated. And for all the faculty who have come here. So, you know, if you look for God, did you, did you go someplace where they let you make an impact? Yeah, I did. I did. And I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that Shoeshine got that letter that day and that I gave it a chance. 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:24.000 Did you always know that you wanted to be an academic or this was something that Shoeshine, like, helped to develop? 00:38:24.000 --> 00:40:33.000 Yeah I, when I was little, I used to play school, and I'd line up my stuffed animals, and I had blue books, and I thought they were the coolest thing in the world, and I would give them little tests. So I guess leaning towards teaching was always a thing for me. But being a professor, no. And in fact, Angel can tell you this, when we, since I met him the day after I started the PhD program, I hated my classes. 'Cause they were very quantitative. I was a psych major. This was not my wheelhouse. And it was a lot more difficult. Like, I had been a really good student my whole life. Even in my undergrad, I got two B's. So school came easy to me. That all ended in grad school. It was not easy anymore. And so I would cry on the phone with him every night that we were talking, Oh, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this program. And so after the first year, I got an internship in HR for a bank. It was called Sun Bank at the time, in Florida, in Miami. And it was on Brickell Avenue, which is a beautiful big office right on the bay. And so I just had an intern job. But I got offered, at the end of the summer, I got offered a permanent job for ten dollars an hour. And I thought, Wow, that's lot of money. This was in 1988. That's a lot of money. Maybe I should drop out of the PhD program since I hate it so much. And I almost did. Oh my God, thank you. I went to my first academic conference at around the same time. And at the conference when I met other PhD students, when I saw faculty presenting on their research, I said, oh, okay. This is what faculty do. It's not these quantitative classes that I hate. So I was able to see the bigger picture. And so at that point, I, and then I started teaching in the PhD program, too. And I thought, okay. I like this. I like this part. Now, being an administrator, never crossed my mind. But being faculty-- 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:37.000 Until you started to be an administrator and then you were going all the way to the top. 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000 Yep. Then I was gonna' be president. Yep. 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:49.000 Okay, I get it. Okay. So can you speak to your highs and lows at CSUSM? You talked about one of the lows. 00:40:49.000 --> 00:43:48.000 Yeah. So highs. This building, Markstein Hall. I was involved from the very, very early stages. I saw, I think I was on the first building committee, the first building design--people might not know this--was a circular building, but then in the CSU that can't work because it's too much wasted space. And then on the inside, so the scrap that, came up with the design, so work from the--work with the architect from the very beginning, as I said, was in this building multiple times as it was going up. And so when it finally opened, this was like my child. So it's funny now that I'm back in here, it's like, oh, I'm, I'm home. I feel completely comfortable. I was like, I picked out this furniture. Fourth floor, all of it, you know, we, the I--the fourth floor, I picked. Dennis, let me pick it. Dennis, let me pick this chair. It is a Coach leather chair in green. It's mine. This, I tell Angel, this is going home with me when I retire. And he says, University property. No, it's my chair. So opening this building was just awesome. The, in this job, well, accreditation, you know. Getting ten years when I didn't know anything about was going into this and was able to put a great team together, work with great people. God bless Melissa Simnett, you know, we were able to pull off a ten-year reaffirmation, which was awesome. Just seeing the growth, that's just been so exciting. My son graduating from here, that was, you know, best day of my life, no doubt. I was able to--I used to, before we got the, it's not an AI reader, it's a--how would you call our, how we do names at graduation now? So it's the computer reads them basically, but it's a human voice. Anyway, before that, it used to be faculty, and I used to coordinate the reading of the names and I would read names. So I got to read his name, and I got to say "my son Vincent Lorente," and my voice cracked just like that. So that was like one of the best days ever. Actually, every graduation is just amazing. And so those are all high points. The last thing I'll say is, you know, working with Academic Advising and getting to know those folks. This team of in Academic Programs that I'm working with now, like the stuff that's been happening recently, that's, that's all been awesome. I've loved it. Low points. I mentioned the one that was the lowest. What was the other one? Yeah, there really haven't been many. There really haven't been many. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:59.000 Okay. Do you have work that you've accomplished in your career that you think has been the most impactful? Like if you had to name one or two things? 00:43:59.000 --> 00:45:36.000 Curriculog and Acalog. So our curriculum system--curriculum management and our catalog--that's fully online. 'Cause that's, I mean, that's a piece of infrastructure that's gonna' last us. And we, that was entirely. I don't do "me" very much, but that one was me doing the research. Other CSUs, only three were using it at the time. But we had to do something 'cause we had paper forms that we're chasing all around campus. And we tried working with IT to do something that was an early version of DocuSign, but the technology wasn't there yet. And so these companies just started up then that were saying, Hey, we can do it all for you. And so I started researching them and thankfully we chose these folks. And now most of the CSUs uses 'em. And so that, while I don't fool myself into thinking it's gonna last us forever, I'm sure there's gonna be a better mousetrap someday. It has taken us quite far and took us through the pandemic, which if we had not had that, then there is no way. Everything would've ground to a halt. So I think that's had a big impact. This building, this thing's my legacy right here. So those things, and I guess just all the, I haven't counted, maybe I should, all of the program proposals, new programs, all of the things that have gotten approved in the last twelve years while I've been in this job. Like, at least--not a hundred, but about fifty easy. And so so those things. 00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:42.000 Great. Can you tell me about the people who have most influenced you in your career? 00:45:42.000 --> 00:50:24.000 Hmm. So going--I mentioned Dennis Guzman, who had been the dean in COBA. So he was a great mentor and a great friend. And he rebuilt my self-esteem such that I could stay on as an administrator and not think that I was the piece of dirt that all of the faculty thought I was at the time. Beverly Anderson. So she was the first permanent dean hired in 1992. And she was, unfortunately, not what the senior faculty at the time wanted. I don't know if there were gender issues then. I was too young and blind to see any of that at the time. But they did not like her. They wanted to get rid of her and made her life miserable. And in fact, they co-opted us junior faculty. 'Cause I was twenty-six, what did I know from anything at the time? These, you know, senior faculty, who had been around forever, different universities were telling me, oh no, this isn't what we need in a dean. So they co-opted all of us and did a vote of no confidence against her. And so she stepped down after eighteen months. And then as I got a little bit older, I had a little bit more experience. After about three years, I realized, Man, that was a mistake. Beverly was good people and she was a good dean. And so I went to her and I said, Beverly, I am so sorry if you could ever forgive me. And so she became a mentor to me. She became a very close friend, and we stay in touch to this day. And she is like the exemplar of what a woman in the academy should be like. She came up in a time when women weren't respected, but yet she kept her head high. And I still remember the things that she told me. Like she said, nobody insults you without your permission. She taught me that careers are cyclical and that they go up, they go down, they go up, they go down. So never when they're down, when you're down, never worry about it 'cause it's gonna' go back up. So she had a huge impact on me. I'd say Karen Haynes, so she was a great mentor to me. She and Pat Worden, who was a VP of Student Affairs for a while, had been all of the things, like she had been Associate Dean in, it wasn't CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences) then, it was COAS, College of Arts and Sciences. Lots of positions on campus. And so she was a mentor to me and she, Karen and wait, yeah, she, Karen and I taught a class on women in leadership. And so that was super exciting. And that's how I got to know President Haynes as a person. And she wasn't just like in name only, she, we team taught that class and she was there. Like, she would come, she would lecture, she would discussion, all of the things. So she was a great influence on me. Kamel Haddad. He was just amazing. He made me better, you know, he just had a way of, you know, he was tough. He was hard to understand sometimes, not verbally, but just, What is it that you want from me? and I can't do it! And he yes, you can. And he taught me. And he was so patient. And so he made me better. Graham. Graham, he came in from the the provost who didn't give me the job. And he treated me fairly. He respected me. He--I guess that was a low time when I didn't get the job, the dean job. But Graham came in and saved the day for me. And so he was, he was definitely a mentor. My super close friend here, Dawn Formo. She and I have been together now for what, thirty years we've been friends. And so I always looked to her for like, what would Dawn do if? 'Cause she always does the right thing. Yeah, I'd say those, those folks. I'm sure there's more. I'm leaving out. Oh, David Barsky, who held the position before me. So he taught me. He spent a whole year training me, and I was thinking, I can't do this, David. I can't do it your way. But he still taught me and he taught me well, and he was always there to answer questions. 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:32.000 So what do you plan to do during retirement? Personally and professionally. Today is your first day of retirement, I will say-- 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.000 It is. 00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:34.000 --and you're in your office-- 00:50:34.000 --> 00:52:27.000 --and here I am. (laughter) Aye-yai-yai. So I am going to FERP, faculty early retirement. And so as part of that, I need to continue my--funny how I phrase that--I need to continue my work on WASC because the retirement was unexpected. My plan had been 2026 after my sixtieth birthday in September, after we had done our WASC reaffirmation visit, which is in March of 2026. But this VSIP (Voluntary Separation Incentive Program) thing came up, and it was too good to turn down. So I retired now. But leaving this place in a lurch with accreditation wasn't an option for me. And thankfully, the Provost and Vice Provost agreed. And so that's my fac--my FERP assignment is instead of going back to the classroom, I'm going to continue on as the, the WASC ALO and lead us through the accreditation visit. Also, since I'm not being replaced yet, the whole what happens to academic programs and academic advising question is still a very real one. And so I will be a faculty fellow for accreditation and curriculum, which means, kind of have to figure out how much I can do within the constraints of my FERP assignment to kind of keep the boat afloat for a year. So in a lot of ways, nothing has changed but then everything has changed. So I'm just, I'm still trying to figure out in my head what that means. I think at minimum it means that I set my schedule. And that I am the boss of no one for the first time since 1999. And that technically no one is the boss of me, other than my dogs. (Laughter) 00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:31.000 Will you still continue to do professional work with WASC? 00:52:31.000 --> 00:53:56.000 Yes. So I will still serve on teams. So I've been doing that for about ten years now. I got involved with WASC after our visit because I was very impressed with them as an organization, because you think accreditation and it, you think it's about checking a bunch of boxes and oh, you don't do this right. WASC is not that. WASC is all about, you know, maybe it's the California philosophy, I don't know, but it's all about let's try to make you better. Let's get to know you, let's help you be a better version of you. And so that felt really good. And it also felt good to learn about other institutions because since this is the only place I've ever worked in higher ed, you know, that's my, that's a strength and it's a weakness because it's all I knew. And so getting involved in WASC exposed me to all types of institutions, you know, private, not-for-profit, for-profit, all of the things. Big schools, little schools, international schools. They sent me to the Emirates to review a school, I'm going to Ecuador next year. So really, WASC like swung open the door on professional development for me as someone in higher ed. And so I will absolutely love to keep doing that. And in fact, I just did a sub-change review yesterday for a school in Africa, of all places. Didn't go there, obviously. It was Zoom. But yeah, Ecuador in April. 00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:10.000 Very cool. Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about in this interview? Anything that we missed? 00:54:10.000 --> 00:55:17.000 So in my retirement speech, I made a reference to Hamilton," and I read part of George Washington's farewell speech. I won't do that again. But the one thing I didn't say was another quote from Hamilton and it says "legacy is planting seeds in a garden you never get to see." I got to see the garden. So that's pretty cool. And as I said earlier, I'm really grateful for that. Hopefully there's still some flowers that will bloom once I'm gone. But that won't be for another, well, I can FERP for five years. And that's my plan, you know, I think, God, old people retire and I'm not old, you know, fifty-eight, I'll be fifty-nine, but I've got five years now, and so I can see going all the way through five years for sure. Unless and until Vince has a baby. If that happens, then we are Napa bound and I will be raising grandchildren. (laughter) 00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:43.000 Very good. Okay. Well thank you. I will say the theme that came across to me the most in this interview is your like, can do, I can do it for a year, I can do it for two years. I could, I can do it for six months. And you've obviously been open to these possibilities, and that is really what has made your career and CSUSM so much better. So thank you so much for interviewing today. Thank you. Thank you for letting me talk about myself for two hours. (laughter) 00:55:43.000 --> 01:55:49.000 Thank you. Thank you for letting me talk about myself for two hours. (laughter) NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eisenbach, Regina. Interview July 1, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-085 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-07-01 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Regina Eisenbach Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos -- History California State University San Marcos -- Administration Education, Higher Women in leadership Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Juan (P.R.) Miami (Fla.) San Marcos (Calif.) CSUSM history Women's experience